T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T
R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L
P R O C E E D I N G S
D A A L T Y N
HANSARD
Douglas, Tuesday, 21st January 2020
All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:
www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard
Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.
Volume 137, No. 8
ISSN 1742-2256
Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2020 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Present:
The President of Tynwald (Hon. S C Rodan OBE)
In the Council: The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. P A Eagles), The Attorney General (Mr J L M Quinn QC), Miss T M August-Hanson, Mr D C Cretney, Mr T M Crookall, Mr R W Henderson, Mrs M M Maska, Mrs K A Lord-Brennan, Mrs J P Poole-Wilson and Mrs K Sharpe with Mr J D C King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.
In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen); The Chief Minister (Hon. R H Quayle) (Middle); Mr J R Moorhouse and Hon. G D Cregeen (Arbory, Castletown and Malew); Hon. A L Cannan and Mr T S Baker (Ayre and Michael); Hon. C C Thomas and Mrs C A Corlett (Douglas Central); Mrs C L Barber and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Hon. D J Ashford and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North); Miss K J Costain and Hon. W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff); Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel); Mr W C Shimmins (Middle); Mr R E Callister and Ms J M Edge (Onchan); Dr A J Allinson and Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey); Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.
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Business transacted
Welcome back to Members ...... 791 Greetings from the Parliament of Canada ...... 791 Papers laid before the Court ...... 791 Bill for signature ...... 793 Question of Urgent Public Importance ...... 794 Dispute with teaching unions – Statement ...... 794 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 801 Procedural – Question 4 to be answered in writing; Question 42 to be answered on 31st January ...... 801 1. Derestricted roads – Policy basis ...... 801 2. Pensioners – Number living solely off state pension ...... 803 3. Closure of all sub-post office branches – CoMin discussion ...... 805 5. Zero-based budgeting at DESC – Progress with project ...... 806 6. Manx pension supplement – Plans to bring back ...... 807 7. DEFA and Bangor University– Contract regarding Manx waters; reports received ...... 808 8. Fisheries Management Agreement following Brexit – Renegotiating control of Island’s waters ...... 809 9. KM&T report about Hospital theatres – Action taken ...... 813 10. Hospital consultants’ pay review – Progress...... 814 11. Home carers looking after relatives – Help and support available ...... 816 12. Affordable housing – Improving access and availability ...... 817 13. Peel Marina – New plans for dredging and silt disposal; project cost ...... 821 14. Peel Marina dredging – Consultants’ cost ...... 824 15. Public Services Commission – Employee groups to be transferred ...... 825 16. Sub-post offices becoming mini Welcome Centres – Discussions held with Post Office ...... 828 17. 2020 TT Schedule – When consultation decision was made ...... 831 18. Potential decline in post office counters – DfE concerns raised ...... 832 19. Retail sector – Plan to protect and enhance; assessment of significance ...... 834 20. Pupils receiving free school meals – Number by school in last 10 years; budget allocated ...... 838 21. In-house teacher training – Schools’ employment of graduates ...... 839 22. Sub-postmasters – Why roles not advertised since 2016 ...... 840 23. Ballasalla sub-postmaster – Why role not advertised ...... 842
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Questions for Written Answer ...... 846 4. Benefit payments – Number and frequency paid, by type ...... 846 24. Ballasalla Post Office – External assessment of alternatives to existing services ...... 847 25. Potential Ballasalla Post Office closure – CoMin assessment of environmental impact ...... 847 26. Resignation of Transformation team CEO – Effect on transformation process ...... 847 27. Central Projects Unit – Proposal progress ...... 848 28. Payment of pensions and benefits– When Post Office option removed ...... 848 29. MiCard – Need to re-enrol after three years; future of service ...... 849 30. Health Service transformation – Progress ...... 850 31. DHSC waiting lists – Letters asking if appointments still required ...... 851 32. Patient transfer service – Contingency plans ...... 852 33. Peel Marina silt testing – Publishing results ...... 852 34. Commercially viable post offices – Determination by Isle of Man Post Office ...... 853 35. Clinical Recommendations Committee – Meetings in last five years; drug approval process; changes planned...... 853 36. Independent regulation of health and social care – Progress ...... 854 37. MiCard customers – Number using each post office ...... 854 38. Citizenship applications through immigration channels – Details for last five years ..... 855 39. Local authority rates – Details of increases for last 10 years ...... 856 40. TT VIP tickets – Details of issue by DfE since September 2016 ...... 862 41. MNH kiosk at Sea Terminal – Formal review outcome; costs and profits; future plans ...... 863 42. Transfer of DESC staff to PSC – Publishing communications ...... 864 43. Teachers employed on 1st January 2020 – By school type, contract and take-home pay ...... 864 44. Housing support for new teachers – Access for Manx residents, teachers appointed and cost for all teachers ...... 865 45. Housing support for teachers – Teachers recruited since revising policy ...... 866 46. Teacher pay scales – Compared with neighbouring jurisdictions ...... 866 47. DHSC-funded operations in Oswestry – Number of patients in last five years ...... 868 48. Registered Nurses – Current and predicted vacancies; recruitment ...... 869 49. Registered Nurses – Number leaving service in last two years and length of service ... 870 50. Relocation of nurses – Amount paid in last three years ...... 871 51. DHSC recruitment and retention policy – Plans to review ...... 871 52. Training nurses on Island – Current capacity and plans to change ...... 872 53. DHSC recruitment initiatives – Details of those undertaken during 2019 ...... 872 54. Nurse exit interviews – Information held and causes for leaving ...... 873
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55. Geddyn Reesht and Grianagh Court – Amount spent of money allocated; progress of projects ...... 874 56. DHSC locums, bank staff and relief staff – Budget and expenditure for last three years ...... 875 57. Bowel cancer – Diagnoses in last 10 years, trends identified and action taken ...... 875 58. Current DoI projects – Update and compliance with timescales and budgets ...... 875 59. Aircraft using Ronaldsway – Information required, when and by whom ...... 876 60. First-time buyers’ schemes – Number of people using each in last five years ...... 876 61. Post Office Retail Network Modernisation Strategy – Business case for self-service kiosks ...... 878 62. Sub-postmasters with one or two offices – Number who are over 45 on 1st January 2020 ...... 878 63. Post Office Crown services in Douglas and Ramsey – When existing contracts end ...... 879 64. Sub-postmasters with two or more sub-post offices – Current contract end dates ...... 879 65. Ballasalla Post Office – Number of transactions compared with other offices ...... 879 66. Ballasalla Post Office – Equality impact assessment of possible service changes ...... 880 67. Ballasalla Post Office – Proposed closure and future plans for service provision ...... 880 The Court adjourned at 1.01 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m...... 881 Order of the Day ...... 881 3. Department of Health and Social Care – Supplementary Vote – Amended motion carried ...... 881 Announcement of Royal Assent – Tynwald Proceedings (Amendment) Act 2020 ...... 906 4. Climate Change Action Plan – Prof. Curran’s Report; Government commitments – Debate commenced ...... 907 The Court adjourned at 5.21 p.m. and resumed at 5.51 p.m...... 917 Climate Change Action Plan – Prof. Curran’s Report; Government commitments – Debate continued – Motion carried ...... 918 5. Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-2019 – Debate commenced ...... 941 Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete Item 5 ...... 947 Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-2019 – Debate continued – Motion carried ...... 948 The Court adjourned at 8.41 p.m...... 957
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Tynwald
The Court met at 10.30 a.m.
[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair]
The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.
5 The President: Moghrey mie, good morning, Hon. Members.
Members: Moghrey mie, Mr President.
The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayer.
PRAYERS The Lord Bishop
Welcome back to Members
10 The President: Hon. Members, welcome to the first sitting of the New Year, which I am sure we enter in good heart and with confidence.
Greetings from the Parliament of Canada
The President: Hon. Members, Mr Speaker and I had the privilege of attending the Conference of Speakers and Presiding Officers of the Commonwealth in Ottawa, and the Speaker of the House of Commons of Canada, Mr Anthony Rota, asked that we convey fraternal 15 greetings and best wishes to the Members of Tynwald from the Parliament of Canada.
Papers laid before the Court
The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.
The Clerk: I lay the papers listed at Item 1 of the Order Paper.
Town and Country Planning Act 1999 Town and Country Planning (National Policy Directives) Regulations 2019 [SD No 2019/0505] [MEMO]
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European Union and Trade Act 2019 European Union and Trade Act 2019 (Deficiencies) (DEFA) (No. 10) Regulations 2019 [SD No 2019/0512] [MEMO]
Licensing Act 1995 Liquor Licensing (Occasional Licences) (Temporary Modification) (No. 2) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0510] [MEMO]
Local Government Act 1985 Arbory and Rushen (Local Government District) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0498] [MEMO]
European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 European Union (Turkey Sanctions) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0476] [MEMO]
Financial Services Act 2008 Authorised Collective Investment Schemes (Compensation) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 [SD No 2019/0480] [MEMO]
Social Security Act 2000 Pensions Act 2007 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0293] [MEMO] Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0482] [MEMO]
Reports
Isle of Man Programme for Achievement of Climate Targets – An independent report on options for targets and actions to achieve net zero emissions by 2050 Professor James Curran [GD No 2019/0102] [MEMO]
Isle of Man Government Action Plan for Achieving Net Zero Emissions by 2050 Phase One [GD No 2019/0101] [MEMO]
Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-2019 [GD No 2019/0103]
The remaining items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper
Documents subject to no procedure
Building Control Act 1991 Building Control (Approved Documents) (No. 2) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0448] [MEMO]
Currency Act 1992 Currency (VE Day 75th Anniversary) 50p Coin Collection Order 2020 [SD No 2020/0001] Currency (VE Day 75th Anniversary) Sovereign Coin Collection Order 2020 [SD No 2020/0002] Currency (Rupert the Bear Centenary) 50p Coin Collection Order 2020 [SD No 2020/0004]
Documents subject to negative resolution
Interpretation Act 2015 Agriculture and Fisheries Grant Scheme (Appeal Fees) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0467] [MEMO] ______792 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Agriculture Development Scheme (Appeal Fees) Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0468] [MEMO]
European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 Turkey Sanction Regulations 2019 [SD No 2019/0477] [MEMO]
Equality Act 2017 Employment and Equality Tribunal (Amendment) Rules 2019 [SD No 2019/0506] [MEMO]
Fisheries Act 2012 Sea Fishing Licensing (No. 2) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2019 [SD No 2019/0511] [MEMO]
Immigration Act 1971 Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules [SD No 2020/0011] [MEMO]
Appointed Day Order
Equality Act 2017 Equality Act 2017 (Guidance on the Definition of Disability) Appointed Day Order 2019 [SD No 2019/0485]
Reports
Equality Act 2017 – Guidance on matters to be taken into account in determining questions relating to the definition of disability [GD No 2019/0093]
Depositors’ Compensation Scheme (in relation to the Compensation of Depositors Regulations 2008) Annual Report of the Scheme Manager for the year ended 31 March 2019 [GD No 2019/0095]
Isle of Man Government Accounts 2018-19 [GD No 2019/0097]
A Management Plan for the 0-3 M Zone of the Manx Territorial Sea [GD No 2019/0098]
Council of Ministers Response to the Tynwald Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Report for the Session 2019-20 on Suicide [GD No 2019/0063]
Emoluments of Members of Tynwald Report by an Independent Panel [PP No 2019/0158]
Bill for signature
20 The President: Hon. Members, I have to announce that the following Bill is ready for signature: the Tynwald Proceedings (Amendment) Bill 2019. With the consent of the Court, I shall circulate it for signing while we deal with other business. Agreed?
25 Members: Agreed.
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Question of Urgent Public Importance
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
Dispute with teaching unions – Statement
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
If he will make a statement on the continuing dispute with the teaching unions and the news release dated 17th January 2020?
The President: We turn now to our Order Paper and Questions. Hon. Members, I have allowed Ms Edge to ask an Urgent Question to the Minister for Education relating to the dispute between the Department and teaching unions. All Members 30 should have received notification of this, and I call Ms Edge, Hon. Member for Onchan, to ask her Urgent Question.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture if he will make a statement 35 on the continuing dispute with the teaching unions and the news release dated 17th January 2020?
The President: I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen, Minister for Education.
40 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. There are four teaching unions – the National Education Union (NEU), the National Association of School Masters and Women Teachers (the Teachers Union), the National Association of Headteachers (NAHT) and the Association of School and College Leaders (ASCL). The three latter unions have currently raised disputes with the Department, each one different 45 from the others. According to the recent ballot papers we have received, the membership of these three unions in DESC schools is: NAHT, 74 members; ASCL, 25 members; NASUWT, 261 members; NEU has the largest membership of teachers on the Island and has indicated that it has over 500 of the Department’s approximately 800 contracted teachers. 50 Since 1992, the Department has determined annual uplifts of teachers’ pay in the same way. The School Teachers’ Review Body (STRB) makes a recommendation to the Secretary of State and, having considered the recommendation, he or she then publishes the decided pay increase in the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions Document (STPCD). Given the requirement in the employment contracts of the overwhelming majority of senior 55 leaders on the Isle of Man that ‘Your salary is in accordance with the DfE’s School Teachers Pay and Conditions Document’, and its pay policy which makes clear it relates to ‘Pay Increases Arising from Changes to the STPCD’, the Department has implemented the STPCD award every year since 1992 – for 27 years, including in those years when the STPCD was different to the STRB. 60 This arrangement was sought by members of the Joint Negotiating Committee for Teachers (JNC) and has been protected by them over many years. In 2018, the Secretary of State published in the STPCD his decision to graduate the pay award for teachers, to apply: (i) a 3.5% uplift to the statutory minima and maxima of the main pay range and of the unqualified teachers’ pay range; (ii) a 2% uplift to the statutory minima and
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65 maxima of the upper pay range, the leading practitioner pay range and all allowances across all pay ranges; (iii) a 1.5% uplift to the leadership pay ranges, including headteacher groups. As it had previously, the Department paid teachers in line with this decision in the STPCD. Following a ballot of members in July 2019, the NAHT led its members in industrial action short of strike over the implementation of the pay award in 2018-19 as they considered that the 70 STRB recommendation should have been implemented, rather than the STPCD as stated in the Department’s policy and teachers’ contracts. Despite receiving exactly the same settlements as teachers on the Isle of Man for 2018-19, there is no industrial dispute raised by any of the teaching unions in England or Wales about the same pay award. 75 Meetings took place with NAHT in Sept 2019 and this resulted in a 10-point agreement, including a commitment to engage in pay discussions with all four teaching unions regarding pay. These meetings took place in early November 2019. During the talks, DESC repeatedly stated its willingness to approach Treasury with a business case for additional funding and outlined a 80 number of possible proposals which could have been put forward by the Department. The meetings ended with an agreement that both sides provide additional information ahead of a fifth day of talks. The Department forwarded the requested information. Two days before the fifth date, the Department had still not received the information from the unions – details and costings for their pay proposal – seemingly as a result of mis-communication on behalf of 85 the trade unions. As a result, the meeting date was postponed and re-scheduled a week later, subject to the requested information being provided. The trade union side declined this meeting. DESC has still not received a firm counter-proposal from the three trade unions. The only proposal received from NASUWT, NAHT and ASCL states a desire for STPCD + x%, with no value 90 to x. DESC has offered binding arbitration to resolve the dispute on several occasions but the trade unions have declined this. All parties have agreed to refer the issue to the Manx Industrial Relations Service. A meeting was scheduled with MIRS, by NASUWT, NAHT and ASCL on 16th January to which the Department and the NEU were not invited. 95 Ballots for strike action and action short of strike continued during this time by these three the teaching unions. NEU approached MIRS and arranged a separate meeting with officers from the Department on 15th January. At this meeting, an agreement was reached that would see all Isle of Man teachers move to the London Fringe Area pay range, retaining the link to the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions 100 Document (STPCD). Under the agreement the two lowest teaching pay scales would be removed. Trade unions have argued that they consider pay erosion for teachers, when compared to other pay groups, is as great as 30%. The Department’s figures demonstrate that, when the significantly higher pension contributions by civil servants has been accounted for, the ‘pay 105 erosion’ for teachers, when compared to PSC, over the last 10 years is approximately 1.23%. When added to last year’s pay increase of 2.75%, the approximate 2.5% uplift from a move towards the fringe ranges and a much-anticipated above-inflation award, within the STPCD for 2020, this two-year deal could easily lead to an increase of 8% to 9% over 12 months. NEU is currently seeking the support of its members for this deal. 110 Teachers on the Isle of Man also benefit from a range of other advantages including a preferential tax regime, a final salary pension scheme – career average in the UK; no SATS; no league tables; no Ofsted; personal laptops; preferential pupil teacher ratios compared to areas in the UK; golden hello payments; wellbeing events for headteachers, etc. The Department has still not received a firm, costed proposal indicating what the three trade 115 unions are hoping for, with this regard to pay.
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The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for that full response. 120 There are a couple of things within that that the Minister mentioned about business cases, etc. and communications that they have had. It would be helpful if he circulated them to all Members so we can fully understand what business cases have been put forward. The real question that I would like to ask the Minister is: when did he receive Treasury concurrence for the proposal that was put forward between his Department and the NEU? 125 When he received that Treasury concurrence, would it be from his net budget for his Department? And also, can the Minister confirm under whose instruction and authority the Department have been advised to break the collective bargaining agreement?
130 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As indicated, we will be putting a business case towards Treasury for this deal. That is the situation. 135 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.
Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister mentioned that there were preferential teacher-student ratios on the Island 140 compared with certain areas of the UK. I wonder if he could provide more information on that – which areas he is comparing them to and the different ratios between them.
The President: And I apologise; I should have said ‘Miss Costain’. Minister to reply. 145 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I will get officers to circulate that.
Miss Costain: Thank you. 150 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I am quite astounded, really, that there is a press release gone out saying that they are in 155 agreement with one union and they have not received Treasury concurrence. I am quite certain this would not be compliant with financial regulations. Can the Minister advise when he is going to seek some form of approval from Treasury or perhaps this Hon. Court, if he is going to need additional funding, because it seems to be completely away from the normal processes that would be followed? 160 And with regard to some of the comments the Minister said, that we have these additional golden hellos, we have iPads and IT, etc. for our teachers – isn’t that great that we can say we are an island that provides this to our teachers? But the Minister seems to be not really focusing on the real issue here: we are in dispute with three of our unions – our leaders in our schools. Can the Minister confirm when he is going to 165 comply with the collective bargaining arrangements?
The President: Reply, sir.
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The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 170 It does not need Treasury concurrence for the additional funding. We are going to put a business case to Treasury for some additional funding or for how we fund that pay claim. The issue that we have is that when we have been in discussions with these unions, as I stated earlier, three of those unions went to MIRS and did not invite the Department or the NEU. The NEU invited the Department to that meeting with MIRS and the proposal was put 175 forward. That proposal will then have a business case put to it, which we will go forward with.
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 180 Can I ask the Minister: he says that the NEU discussed/negotiated with them, through MIRS, for the deal that has been arranged, but is it normal for his Department to negotiate with a union that is not in dispute, through the Manx Industrial Relations Service? I find that curious. And also, would he accept that the deal that has been reached, to erode the lowest two pay grades, is actually causing concern for teachers immediately above that and it has not been 185 welcomed universally by the teaching profession and that in fact the deal that has been arranged with one union has exacerbated the industrial dispute that he is facing?
The President: Minister to reply.
190 The Minister: Mr President, it was quite interesting that in the briefing that was put on by the Hon. Member for Garff and the Member for Onchan, Ms Edge, one of the union representatives had said that their proposals, when they go to the Secretary of State, will be to remove those two lower bands in the future. So what we have done is actually something that they will be recommending in the future. 195 So it is a difficult one to understand why a union would have a concern on something that we were proposing to put forward that they are proposing for the future.
The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.
200 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. It would be helpful, perhaps: please can the Minister explain the collective bargaining arrangements with the teaching unions and if there has been a departure from that arrangement.
205 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The negotiations that took place in November were with all the teaching unions. The NEU were not in dispute with us, but they were seeking an additional amount of money, so they had 210 not gone to ballot regarding this matter. A proposal was put to all the unions that we would go to the Manx Industrial Relations Service. Three of those unions decided to go on their own, leaving out the NEU. The NEU requested a meeting with MIRS and our Department.
215 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the Minister again, is it normal for his Department to negotiate a deal through MIRS with a union that is not in dispute with his Department?
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220 And also when the lowest grades’ pay scales have been erased, will the grades immediately above it be adjusted accordingly for those teachers with some few years of experience?
The President: Minister.
225 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. You can go across different policies across Government, because when you had the new starters in a number of Departments, as with the Post Office, they changed the terms and conditions for their staff, and there are people on different terms and conditions. For a number of new teachers, as one of the unions has indicated, that is a proposal they 230 would be putting forward. I would have thought the Hon. Member would have welcomed this, because this will actually encourage new teachers, if they see that the Isle of Man has a pay scale that is two points above that in the UK.
The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge. 235 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. It is quite clear when the Minister has just stood up and stated that you have reached agreement to remove two of the pay bands – I am assuming bands 1 and 2 – does he not realise that this then inflates the salaries further up the chain? He said that this is a proposal that is 240 going to be coming forward from the teaching unions, and I quite agree with it, that our teachers, our frontline service staff, are not paid an appropriate starting salary. However, if the Minister – and what he has just said is that this is what they are considering – takes away bands 1 and 2 and starts everyone on band 3, when these proposals come in from the UK government or from the teaching representatives – the STPC or the STRB – does he not realise the impact 245 financially of that to his Department? And is he going to make it out of his net budget?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 250 The other bandings will remain the same. So what you have done is you have removed the two bandings. This will mean that a newly qualified teacher – a new teacher coming to teach in the Isle of Man – will be on approximately £6,000 more than what they would have previously been on.
255 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Thank you very much, Mr President. I have got a couple of questions for the Minister. I was interested to hear that the same arrangement seems to be agreed in the UK and yet we have got a problem here in the Isle of 260 Man. I would like to hear his comments on that. I would also like to know why the Minister would think it right to release information or support some extra costs in salaries when there is not even a business case submitted, let alone agreed.
265 Mr Cretney: Hear, hear.
The President: Reply sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 270 This was advised to the NEU that this would be subject to a business case going forward.
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The President: Supplementary, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 275 I am interested to hear if the Minister feels there could be a knock-on effect that we were very attractive to new teachers if his proposal for this pay award goes ahead; but yet we may lose teachers of two or three years’ experience, who then do not feel that they are going to make any progression for some time up the scales, compared with a newly qualified teacher. Also, does he feel that his action, when three of the education unions were briefing Members 280 on Thursday afternoon and this deal was no doubt already concluded with the other union … does he not feel that it was insulting, rude, aggressive almost, to say nothing at that meeting on Thursday, then announce it on Friday? Can he appreciate that that has further enraged the other unions? And would he acknowledge that his way of handling the disputes with the various unions is 285 not seen as at all reaching out to a resolution that will avert a strike and in fact seems to be leading irrevocably towards full strike action?
Ms Edge: Hear, hear.
290 The President: Reply sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I do not understand the Hon. Member’s assertion that we will lose teachers at band 3. Why would they leave the Isle of Man on band 3, where they would just go to another job on that 295 same banding? They are not going to be on a different banding; they are going to be on the same banding. So what we are actually doing, as with anything, is that we are trying to encourage more new teachers into those positions. As regards to the other teaching unions, we are still in negotiations with them. As I said in my statement, how do you negotiate with a union when they still have not told you how much they 300 want? They keep on saying, ‘We want STPCD + x.’ Even at the briefing that the Hon. Member put on I asked one of the representatives, ‘Can you tell me what x means?’ and they still would not tell us what x is. How do you enter into negotiations to any … [Inaudible] if those unions will not tell you how much they want? 305 The President: Final supplementary, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister keeps commenting about x but these are highly professional, qualified people 310 and without knowing what the Department’s actual financial proposal is, an x would be quite appropriate. The Department has not come forward with any proposal financially. Quite clearly they have not because they have not got Treasury concurrence. However, what I really would like to ask the Minister is he clearly has no handle or understanding of teachers’ pay grades and how his proposal to remove these two bands will 315 impact on professionals within our schools. We are leaders in education already, we do not need … I am aware that the Chief Minister in his State of the Nation speech commented that we want to be leaders. We already are leaders in lots of areas and I think it is totally inappropriate that a Minister stands up here today without that understanding of the impact in our schools if he takes away two grades at the bottom and has starting salaries of £30,000 – the impact on our 320 teachers who have got more than two years’ experience, our leaders. I just feel that the Minister has not got a handle on this situation. We have got a ballot for a strike that has been approved and the Minister, I believe, is not listening to our teachers and not understanding what is in front of him. ______799 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The President: Minister to reply. 325 The Minister: Mr President, we are offering a significant increase for new teachers. Under this proposal, for which we are putting the business case to Treasury, we will see an increase across all bands of teachers. There will be an increase for all bands. It is not just for these, it will be an increase for all bands. 330 Mr President, we are still in – (Interjection) All bands! It will go all the way through to headteachers. (The President: Order.) (A Member: Hear, hear.) This deal, agreed in principle with the NEU, will apply to all teaching bands so that means all the way through to headteachers it will have the London Fringe Rating. The London Fringe Rating is approximately a thousand pounds more than what they are currently on. So all bands 335 will get an increase. So, Mr President, the NEU consider this would be a good deal for their teaching staff. We are still in negotiations with the other unions. As soon as they come forward and tell us exactly what they want it is going to be far easier for those negotiations to go forward. Mr President, the Department has made numerous proposals which would be subject to a 340 business case to the unions to resolve this dispute. The unions who have balloted for industrial action to the Department, we had made offers of binding arbitration regarding the 2018-19 pay recommendations, which have been refused by the unions. The three unions who have balloted for industrial action and did a presentation to Tynwald Members did not mention that the Department had offered pay proposals to end this dispute. 345 They did not tell Tynwald Members that an offer had been made for binding arbitration and that they had refused it. I have the letter, which I was prepared to show to the Member, from one of the unions where he refused the offer. Mr President, the three unions who have balloted for industrial action did not put on the ballot paper that the Department had made offers to end this dispute or that they had offered 350 binding arbitration. I hope the three unions will put the offer negotiated by the National Education Union to their members before they take any industrial action. This offer will see new teachers start on nearly £6,000 more than previously. It will also see all other teachers receive almost £1,000 a year more. Mr President, the Department has taken steps to try and avoid industrial action which will 355 affect both our valued teachers and our children’s education.
The President: Final, final supplementary, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Yes, thank you, Mr President. 360 Could I ask the Minister does he recognise that the situation now facing the Island in this regard is somewhat unprecedented in terms of professional staff in education; and does he agree with me that there has been a loss of some goodwill, to say the very least? Would he therefore agree with me that a good starting point in terms of rebuilding that goodwill might be to formally recognise the trade unions, which is currently not the case? 365 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, I do agree. The issue that we have had is that we have tried to go into these negotiations 370 and we have put proposals to the unions. We have done that in good faith and part of the 10-point action plan that we agreed with the NAHT was that we would put a joint business case to Treasury for that funding. The union has not helped us put a business case towards that. We do recognise our staff and the issue is that we are in negotiations with those unions regarding recognition. So we are already there, Mr President.
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Questions for Oral Answer
Procedural – Question 4 to be answered in writing; Question 42 to be answered on 31st January
375 The President: We turn now to Questions on the Order Paper. I have agreed to allow the response to Written Question 42 from Ms Edge to the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture to be answered on 31st January to allow the Department time to collate the necessary information. I would also inform you that Question 4 will now be answered in writing.
CHIEF MINISTER
1. Derestricted roads – Policy basis
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Chief Minister:
What the policy basis is for derestricted roads?
380 The President: We turn to Question 1, Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister what the policy basis is for derestricted roads.
385 The President: I call on the Chief Minister, Hon. Member Mr Quayle, to reply.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. The Department of Infrastructure’s Traffic Speed Management Policy was brought into place following a public consultation undertaken in 2007 on the Department’s proposal to introduce 390 an all-Island national maximum speed limit. As a result of that consultation, policy regarding derestricted road states that a road will remain derestricted unless a road safety issue that can be addressed by the introduction of a speed limit is identified. This policy was reconfirmed in 2012, but will be reviewed as we progress the Road Safety Strategy that was approved by Tynwald last year. 395 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Does the Chief Minister consider that, given the Government’s commitment to climate change noting that higher speed equals higher emissions and active 400 travel, that it might be time to re-establish the Island’s policy on roads without limits?
The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 405 It is possible that there could be some small improvement in fuel use, though in practice, driving at a steady cruising speed is the best way to use less fuel. Our roads do not lend
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themselves to maintaining a constant speed as corners and junctions are frequent. We need to balance the environmental impact with the potential for congestion and the time taken to make a journey. Of course if you want to reduce the impact of your car on the environment, may I 410 suggest that you leave it at home, walk, cycle or get the bus?
The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. 415 Does the Chief Minister feel that derestricted roads should include the many narrow country lanes on the Island and, if so, what is his rationale for not implementing a universal speed limit on the narrow lanes?
The President: Chief Minister to reply. 420 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for that question. I think in my Answer I said that this policy was reconfirmed in 2012 but will be reviewed as we progress the Road Safety Strategy that was approved by Tynwald last year. I am sure that the Hon. Member’s comments for Middle, 425 Mr Shimmins, will be taken on board.
The President: Supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: I thank the Chief Minister for his response and for his commitment to 430 review. Does the Chief Minister appreciate that travelling by bike for everyday journeys might be more appealing and less intimidating if this matter were addressed; and does he recognise that speed significantly increases the chance of being injured or killed in a collision?
435 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I take on board the Hon. Member’s comments but we went out to the public on this very topic, on the Department of Infrastructure proposals to introduce an all-Island national 440 maximum speed limit. A clear majority of 58% indicated that they would not support the introduction of a maximum speed limit. Based upon the feedback received, the Department decided not to introduce an all-Island speed limit. But, as I have said in my original Answer, the Question I was asked was what was the policy basis and I have said, ‘but will be reviewed as we progress the Road Safety Strategy that was 445 approved by Tynwald.’ I cannot decide how those on that committee make the decisions and what they come up with, but it will be reviewed.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Shimmins.
450 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I note the Chief Minister’s comments that the consultation exercise – or actually it was not really a formal consultation, it was more of a postal postcard vote, if I recall – took place 12 years ago. Given that this will be reviewed, perhaps he could tell us when this will happen and will there be a full public consultation at that time? 455 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. ______802 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
I do not have a timescale at the moment but I will ask the relevant Department that deals 460 with this. I was surprised to be asked the Question in the first place, I would have thought DoI might have been a better area to ask the question, where the information could have been obliged, but I try and help where I can and I will ask the Minister for DoI to advise me and then I will circulate that information to all Hon. Members.
465 The President: Final supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President, and I am very grateful for that. It is actually quite hard to get a specific answer so I would be interested as to whether the Chief Minister thinks that this is really, in terms of policy, a matter for Tynwald, a political matter or a 470 departmental matter, as depending on who you speak to, it is given as already being something that is Tynwald-approved as a policy matter and quite commonly if you talk to other people they think it is a political matter. So I think, would he also welcome clarity on a firmer footing on this policy? Thank you. 475 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you and I thank the Hon. Member for her point. If I could just point out in partial answer that the Road Safety Partnership Action Plan has 480 been developed by a cross-Government group to prioritise accident reduction across the Isle of Man and deliver the strategy that was approved by Tynwald in January 2019. The application of speed limits is being reviewed with a focus on collision reduction. Again, I will ask them to share the thinking with all Hon. Members of this Court.
2. Pensioners – Number living solely off state pension
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister:
How many pensioners in the Island are living solely off their state pension?
The President: Hon. Members may remove jackets if they wish. 485 We turn to Question 2 on what is quite a long Order Paper, and I trust contributions will be kept with that in mind. Hon. Member, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 490 I would like to ask the Chief Minister how many pensioners in the Island are living solely off their state pension?
The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply.
495 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. We do not know how many pensioners are living solely off their state pension. Only pensioners who claim Income Support, of which there are 1,400, are obliged to provide full details of their financial circumstances to the Treasury. What I can say, Mr President, is that our Income Support Scheme guarantees pensioners a 500 minimum income on which to live. Broadly speaking, a single pensioner is currently guaranteed ______803 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
to have at least £180.55 a week on which to live after they have paid their housing costs; and a pensioner couple is guaranteed to have at least £279.65 a week on which to live after they have paid their housing costs. In addition, pensioners who qualify for Income Support also get the Winter Bonus, normally 505 worth £350 a year. And I would encourage any pensioner who is struggling to make ends meet to contact Social Security as soon as possible to discuss their potential entitlement to Income Support. Thank you, Mr President.
510 The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President; and I thank the Chief Minister for that Answer and for giving the offer of people contacting about Income Support. The average income for a household on the Isle of Man is £1,098.70 per week, and that is the 515 HBAI: they consider that with income of less than 60% of this average, households are considered to be living in poverty. I would like to ask the Chief Minister: he has obviously just stated that our pensioners’ weekly income is £180 and then there is the possibility of an additional £350 in Winter Bonus, but does he accept that round about £10,000 for our pensioners, if that is all they have to live 520 on, is acceptable? I am very aware that the Poverty Committee is looking into this, and there are 1,400 people currently, but if he finds there are more than that, what will he do as Chief Minister to support our pensioners who may only be living off £10,000 when the average for the Isle of Man is £1,098 per week? 525 Mr Callister: Lower social housing will help.
The President: Chief Minister.
530 The Chief Minister: Thank you. Two things I think the Hon. Member has maybe forgotten in my Answer, in that that is after housing costs, yet she is quoting an income of £52,000 a year for the average person. (Interjection by Ms Edge) I am surprised the Hon. Member has not realised that housing costs, mortgage payments, etc. have to be taken off that, which she has not … (Interjection by 535 Ms Edge) But you have not shown that, Hon. Member; you have said that they are living off £10,000, and my Answer to you was that after housing costs they are getting £10,000. If the Hon. Member has fully costed proposals on what we can do to help, as the Hon. Member regularly lectures me on making savings in Government, and here she is wanting 540 to spend I do not know how much – x obviously seems to be her figure – (Laughter) then maybe she could enlighten me?
The President: Ms Edge.
545 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. The figure of £10,000, an individual’s income from their pension is £180 per week but that is not after housing costs. That is the pension they receive, that is not after housing costs. And with regard to what the Chief Minister has just said, do we not care about our elderly? Do we not want to look after them? 550 If there is any funding to be provided we should be able to, as an island, say that we are looking after our pensioners who have worked hard for numerous years. There were different
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schemes in place years ago and an awful lot of our pensioners are living solely on this, because they are proud people and they do not want to go cap in hand to Government. But I think really that the Chief Minister should be standing here today … And I would like to 555 ask him: are we a caring nation? Are we a nation that is going to look after our elderly into the future?
The President: Chief Minister.
560 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am disappointed with the Hon. Member on her re-election campaign here. I ended my speech, Mr President, by saying I would encourage any pensioner who is struggling to make ends meet to contact Social Security as soon as possible to discuss their entitlement to Income Support, to help those people. 565 So this is not an answer that says, ‘No, go away, we are not interested in helping people who are struggling to make ends meet’. But these are payments that we do to help those living on the lowest income, and it was after their housing costs have been paid. If they are on the benefits and they are living in social housing, those social housing costs are covered on top of the payment. So if anyone feels they are in that bracket and they are not getting any benefits 570 then of course contact Social Security to see if there is anything that can be done to help them.
3. Closure of all sub-post office branches – CoMin discussion
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask Chief Minister:
Whether the Council of Ministers has discussed the potential closure of all sub-post office branches during the next five years?
The President: Question 3, Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. 575 I would like to ask the Chief Minister whether the Council of Ministers has discussed the potential closure of all sub-post office branches during the next five years?
The President: The Chief Minister to reply.
580 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. The Council of Ministers has been presented with submissions from the Isle of Man Post Office in relation to its five-year strategy on numerous occasions since February 2018. For clarity, sub-post offices are not branches of Isle of Man Post Office. With the exception of Douglas and Ramsey sorting offices, the network of counter services are operated by retailers 585 acting as sub-postmasters under a contract for service. Many retailers provide the service as part of a broader retail proposition that is not necessarily dependent upon the income they receive from the services they provide on behalf of Isle of Man Post Office and its commercial partners. The Council of Ministers of course discussed the Post Office board’s report on modernising 590 the Isle of Man Post Office retail network ahead of its submission to the October 2019 sitting of this Hon. Court. That report did not imply that all sub-post offices will close within five years. Rather it recommended that a financially and socially responsible, demand-driven service network development strategy be adopted, and that was supported by this Hon. Court. ______805 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
595 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Chief Minister, for that Answer. As part of the presentations which you referred to, have the social and wider economic impacts been referred to, of these closures? 600 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. If memory serves me correctly, during that debate I think for postal services the Council of 605 Ministers expects Isle of Man Post Office to honour its commitment to the modernisation principles, including the provision of accessible postal services for 96% of Island residents within three miles.
TREASURY
5. Zero-based budgeting at DESC – Progress with project
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What progress he has made with the project with the Department of Education, Sport and Culture on zero-based budgeting?
The President: Question 5, Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.
610 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for the Treasury what progress he has made with the project with the Department of Education, Sport and Culture on zero-based budgeting?
The President: I call on the Minister for the Treasury to reply. 615 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, I am pleased to confirm that work has continued within the Department of Education, Sport and Culture with regard to this matter. However, it is true to say that progress has been slower than we originally anticipated and the task more complex than first envisaged. 620 The Treasury is currently assessing the best route to complete this project.
The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 625 In a previous response I asked about the tender that went out to look for somebody to act as a partner for this. Did that progress? Also, and I am not sure if the Minister will be able to respond to this, but I believe the Finance Director of the Department of Education was seconded to Treasury for perhaps one or two days a week and people within the Department were given his responsibilities. Can the Minister 630 confirm that is happening? And so why has there been a delay in this project?
The President: Minister to reply. ______806 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The Minister: With that latter point I will confirm the exact details on that position. But with regard to the tender, the initiative is a complex one to implement and unfortunately we have 635 been unable to procure support from the market to assist us with the process, and hence the burden has fallen on internal resources with existing jobs to deliver this project.
The President: Mr Speaker.
640 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. Could the Treasury Minister perhaps outline what positives have come from the exercise which has been running now for almost two years, I believe? And what lessons so far have been learned?
645 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: I am pleased to say that the Department has engaged fully with this process and remains committed to the process. So far we have developed the cost drivers for primary schools, secondary schools and student awards representing over 50% of the net revenue 650 budget. Some further work is required on secondary schools, and the reports for primary schools and student awards will require updating to reflect changes in pupil and student numbers from the current academic year, and to reflect the 2020 Budget. However, we can see the benefits from the process, and once a similar level of analysis has been carried out across the Department’s other varied services it will be possible to prioritise 655 services and service levels across the Department, and it is hoped that this will inform the 2021 Budget round.
The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker.
660 Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. Given the substantial level of financial expertise there is on this Island and the number of people with accounting and financial management backgrounds, has the Treasury considered using some sort of interim resource or subcontract resource? There must be people on this Island who can be introduced in a flexible way to support the Treasury officers who – and I do 665 accept that Treasury Minister’s point – have an awful lot of challenges on their hands at the moment. Are we thinking innovatively enough about how we resource this?
The President: Treasury Minister. 670 The Minister: Well, we will have to pay some more attention to that specific point, Mr President. As I said, we did go through the recognised procurement processes but unfortunately we were unable to secure relevant support from the marketplace. We will have to revisit as to whether we do this in a slightly different way.
6. Manx pension supplement – Plans to bring back
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
What plans he has to bring back the Manx pension supplement?
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675 The President: Question 6. Hon. Member, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for the Treasury if he has any plans to bring back the Manx pension supplement? 680 The President: Treasury Minister, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, in answering this Question I must clarify that Treasury has not removed the Manx pension supplement. Those who are receiving it 685 and are currently getting it will continue to get it. As regards new pensioners, as Hon. Members are aware, as part of the state pension reforms agreed by this Hon. Court in July 2016, and subsequently fully briefed to Hon. Members who were elected, the Manx pension supplement is being gradually phased out over a 20-year period, which started last April. 690 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you and thank you to the Treasury Minister for that Answer. Is he confident over that 20-year period that the impact on anybody that is currently 695 receiving it … there is not really going to be an impact?
The President: Treasury Minister.
The Minister: Mr President, we have set out a clear plan with respect to the phasing out of 700 the Manx pension supplement for pensioners over this period of time and, yes, I am confident that the new arrangements will ensure that pensioners continue to receive proper, full and adequate state pension support in their retirement.
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE
7. DEFA and Bangor University– Contract regarding Manx waters; reports received
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Crookall, to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
What contract the Department has with Bangor University relating to anything in Manx waters; whether the Department publishes all the reports received from Bangor University?
The President: Question 7, Hon. Member of Council, Mr Crookall.
705 Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture what contract the Department has with Bangor University relating to anything in Manx waters; whether the Department publishes all the reports received from Bangor University?
710 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Boot.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. ______808 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The Department has for many years, through open tender, contracted an independent body to undertake scientific research and to provide advice and recommendations on fisheries 715 management in Manx waters since the closure of the Port Erin Marine Lab in 2006. Bangor University is currently contracted to provide this service. The aim of the contract is for the Isle of Man Government to be provided with reliable and consistent independent scientific fisheries advice in order to achieve a well-managed, sustainable fishery within the territorial sea. A sound understanding of commercial fishery stock 720 status is essential to allow the Department to determine appropriate levels of fishing effort whilst also maintaining stocks within safe biological limits. The key terms of the contract require the University to deliver and develop scientific sampling programmes, including data collection, analysis and formal reporting on each of the locally important commercial fish species and also of those species that may become of 725 commercial importance in the future. There is also a requirement to provide data, analysis, advice and recommendations for the most appropriate conservation of habitats and species. Within the five key themes of the Future Fisheries Strategy appropriate levels of fishing effort, scientific data for stocks and marine development and exploitation in harmony with the environment are identified as important consideration and the work undertaken by the 730 University is important in achieving these. Amongst other things, the University is required to interact and liaise with industry to better engage local fishermen and processes in science and research in order to encourage an improved understanding and recognition of the value of science and industry-based data collection. There is a requirement for the University to produce and publish an annual report which 735 contains a list of all outputs from the research carried out during the year, and I believe that all the scientific reports are ultimately published by Bangor University’s Fisheries and Conservation Science Group and are available online to the public.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Crookall. 740 Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for his detailed Answer. Can I just ask the Minister then how long this contract is for the moment and when it is due for renewal; and do the Manx Fish Producers Organisation have an input into who gets the new tender as and when it is up for renewal? 745 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The current contract expires at the end of August 2020 and there will be a full tender process 750 for the continued provision of the independent fisheries science expertise and that is imminent at the moment. With regard to the Manx Fish Producers association, they will be kept informed in due course but it will be a normal procurement process through Government.
8. Fisheries Management Agreement following Brexit – Renegotiating control of Island’s waters
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Crookall, to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
What chances following Brexit there will be to renegotiate the Fisheries Management Agreement and take back more control of the Island’s waters?
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The President: Question 8, again I call on Mr Crookall.
755 Mr Crookall: Thank you. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture what chances following Brexit there will be to renegotiate the Fisheries Management Agreement and take back more control of the Island’s waters?
760 The President: I call the Minister to reply, Mr Boot.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. The Fisheries Management Agreement 2012 (FMA) sets out the main aspects of the arrangements for the management of fisheries between the fisheries administrations of the UK 765 and the Isle of Man in respect of the territorial waters of the Island. It has been the Department’s policy for several years to continue to evolve this agreement to optimise our sustainable fisheries management powers whilst ensuring we maintain access to our key off- Island markets. Among other things, the current FMA requires that Manx rules and regulations governing 770 fisheries management in the extended territorial sea – that is, three to 12 nautical miles – are non-discriminatory and consistent with the UK’s rules under the Common Fisheries Policy, including the implementation of similar measures in relation to vessel licensing and quota management. Upon the UK’s exit from the EU, much of the current FMA becomes redundant, as it is largely 775 built upon the principle of meeting the UK’s obligations under the Common Fisheries Policy which will no longer apply as the UK becomes an independent coastal state. Discussions have already started regarding a new agreement. The UK’s fisheries White Paper published in July 2018 clearly acknowledges the autonomy of Crown Dependencies in managing their own fisheries and states that the UK’s DEFRA will 780 develop new fisheries management agreements with the Crown Dependencies which reflect their autonomy in managing their fisheries whilst maintaining the overall coherence of the UK fisheries policy to ensure compliance with international obligations. Whilst there are clearly benefits to the Isle of Man in developing coherent fisheries management across the Irish Sea, the Isle of Man’s compliance with the FMA has been 785 challenged on many occasions and the UK’s exit from the EU is an opportunity to examine the current arrangements with the UK. Any future agreement or understanding should be based on principles of fairness, proportionality, reasonableness, reciprocity and should, as stated in the UK fisheries White Paper, reflect the Island’s independence in managing its own fisheries.
790 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Crookall.
Mr Crookall: Thank you very much indeed, Mr President. So does the Minister believe that we will get back more control of our waters? And also, again, I would like to ask if the Manx Fish Producers Organisation are not only involved at 795 departmental level but also in negotiations across. Could the Minister confirm whether they are or not, please – with DEFRA? Thank you.
The President: Minister to reply. 800 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Indeed, it is one of my aims and the Department’s aims to secure more control and different access with the new FMA agreement with the UK. Negotiations, as I said earlier, have already started based on the Fisheries White Paper that the UK published. ______810 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
805 In terms of the Manx Fisheries Producers’ association, we keep them informed of progress and we will certainly be liaising with them on proposals as and when they become firmer.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Miss Costain.
810 Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr President. I am pleased to hear that the Minister wants to take more control. But I would ask him, is he actually considering or will he consider revisiting the possibility of the exclusive economic zone (EEZ), which would certainly give more control?
815 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. We will be governed by a fair agreement that will reflect fairness and proportionality, reasonableness and reciprocity across the Irish Sea. 820 It is important for us that we co-operate with other jurisdictions around the Irish Sea, particularly in management measures. Our fish are their fish. Scallops, which are very important economically at the moment, do not just spawn in Manx waters. So we need an agreement that has some coherence. At the moment it is all very well to talk about ‘Manx waters for Manx fishermen only’ but the reality is that at the moment with scallops, the sort of fishing that takes 825 place is mainly in the territorial sea. But who knows what the future will bring? We do have boats and access quota in fisheries outside our waters and we need to be able to maintain that access as fisheries evolve over the coming years.
The President: Hon. Member, Miss August-Hanson. 830 Miss August-Hanson: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to ask the Minister: are the negotiations on a new FMA being handled by External Relations or by DEFA’s Fisheries Division entirely irrespectively of External Relations, as indeed it was on the EU bycatch regulations? 835 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 840 At present, most of the contact is between DEFA’s Fisheries officers and the appropriate equivalent officers in the UK; but of course we do keep external affairs … and take advice from external affairs when we need it.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. 845 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. In the Minister’s original Answer, he mentioned that the FMA applies to the zone three to 12 miles off the Isle of Man’s shore. In the past, I have asked the Minister about the 0-3-mile zone and he has tabled a report in respect of management of that zone. 850 My question for the Minister is: is there any particular reason why his Answer only referred to the three to 12 miles, when in the past I know that this Hon. Court has been told that we have to maintain parity between what is our own waters within three miles and the 3-12-mile zone? Why do we not have essentially Manx waters for Manx fishermen in the three-mile zone, that is entirely within our gift? Is that going to be given up as part of another agreement with the UK? 855 Where does he see that 0-3-mile zone sitting in the future?
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The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 860 The 0-3 is, as you rightly point out, in our control at the moment. But it does form part of the FMA because there is historic access by other jurisdictions to those waters. So alluding to my earlier reply, we have to be careful how we negotiate that, to ensure that we do not … The FMA is important for two reasons: first of all, there may be access to other fisheries that are required in future; but it also is a type of economic agreement which allows us 865 access to markets for our fish. So we have to be careful how we deal with that. My preference would be to have Manx waters for Manx fishermen. But as I said earlier, we have to be aware of the totality of the Irish Sea and the need, maybe, in the future and there are already some of our fishermen fishing outside of our territorial sea and we require access to quota and co-operation with the UK in that respect. 870 The President: Supplementary, Miss Costain.
Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr President. I am still asking about the exclusive economic zone. I thank the Minister for his previous 875 answer but he did not seem to give me a reply that related to my question. So I would like to ask him again: firstly, does he actually understand the concept of it; and if he does, are the Department going to consider it in the future or are they doing so now? And if they are not going to consider it in the future, why not?
880 The President: Reply sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. To be fair, I am not quite sure what you mean by an exclusive economic zone.
885 Miss Costain: I didn’t think you did!
The Minister: But I am answering the questions in relationship to the agreements we have, the FMA and the work we are doing with DEFA as it stands. If the Hon. Member would like a more comprehensive response to that, (Miss Costain: Yes, 890 please.) I would be quite happy to look into it.
The President: Miss August-Hanson.
Miss August-Hanson: Thank you, Mr President. 895 I would like to ask, as DEFA is handling negotiations and speaks with External Relations as and when they need to take advice, how well informed External Relations is regarding negotiations on the FMA? And is the Department the best place to handle this in silo? Thank you, Mr President.
900 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I do not think the Department is handling this in silos in any way. The expertise sits with the Department. I have been privy to discussions with DEFRA, telephonic communications. We have 905 frequent visits to the opposite numbers in the UK and the officers who have the expertise are obviously the appropriate parties to conduct those negotiations. At the same time, external affairs sits as a resource and we refer to them on matters that require referring; but they are kept fully informed and we do take their advice. ______812 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
9. KM&T report about Hospital theatres – Action taken
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What actions have been taken as a result of the September 2018 KM&T report about theatres at Noble’s Hospital?
The President: Question 9. Hon. Member, Mr Speaker. 910 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what actions have been taken as a result of the September 2018 KM&T report about theatres at Noble’s Hospital?
915 The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mr Ashford, to reply.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Following the KM&T theatre review, funding was approved for delivery of a theatre improvement programme to release quality and efficiency opportunities that were identified. 920 A tender process was carried out, supported by the Attorney General’s Chambers, which concluded without success, closing without response from organisations within the consultancy framework. A second tender process, this time supported by the North of England Commercial Procurement Collaborative, is in the process of being created and the tender will be live in 925 February 2020.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. 930 Given that the report identified some pretty serious failings in the theatres at Noble’s Hospital, is the Minister really content that visits that effectively happened in July and August 2018 still had no obvious remedial action? I appreciate that maybe things have not gone out to tender yet, but surely some actions will have been taken in-house and could the Minister at least give some assurance that something is 935 happening whilst we all wait for the tender process to roll through?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 940 I am more than happy to give that reassurance to the Hon. Court. Obviously there were things identified within the report that needed immediate action. Many of those have already been undertaken, so once the report was received there was an immediate restructure that was conducted to address the cultural issues that were raised during the review. Emergency and trauma lists were added to leading to two emergency lists per week, five trauma lists per week, 945 a theatre scheduling meeting was launched to address the issues raised with utilisation, progress has also been made moving procurement activity to NHS supply chain with a focus on specialist hubs, a clinical lead for theatres has been appointed, we have also appointed a lead for education and development. We are in the process of appointing a clinical lead for procurement and we have delivered the new care group structure in theatres, which has become an integral 950 part of the schedule of care. ______813 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. The report also identified potential efficiency gains of approximately £3½ million per annum, 955 which would make a bit of a dent in the Minister’s overspend for the year. Has the Minister been able to put any figures on the savings that he has been able to identify as a result of the changes here? The report also raised a number of issues around culture and learning as well as productivity and savings and perhaps rather than go through all those in great detail today, would the 960 Minister be content to circulate a report to Members of this Court detailing against those dozen or so points that were outlined in the Public Accounts Committee’s report, what progress has been made?
The President: Minister to reply. 965 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. That is something I am certainly happy to look at to see if we can do that. In relation to the savings that were identified, Mr Speaker is quite correct, Mr President, it was money running into millions and it most certainly would make a dent – if that is the phrase we want to use – in 970 the Department’s overspend. In relation to this though, I do need to point out to the Hon. Court, it is a very specialist area in relation to theatres, that is one of the problems we have had in getting someone and procuring someone to be able to undertake this. There is not the capacity in-house to do it and I think we do need to go out, and that is what we will be looking to do in February. We will be 975 partnering with the North of England Commercial Procurement Collaborative, or since acronyms seem to be the order of the day, Mr President, the NOE CPC, which is a massive part of the NHS across that looks to actually carry out very targeted and very specialist reviews, and I am very hopeful that we will be able to use them to move this forward.
10. Hospital consultants’ pay review – Progress
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What progress has been made with the review of consultants’ pay?
The President: Question 10, Mr Speaker. 980 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. Again, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care, what progress has been made with the review of consultants’ pay?
985 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. A detailed job-planning framework has been developed and is in the final stages of negotiation, with only the arrangements pertaining to private practice to be finally agreed upon. 990 When fully implemented this will align organisational objectives with consultant activity and result in equitable, fair and transparent remuneration. It will also provide clear and transparent arrangements in regard to private practice. ______814 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
It is our expectation that these arrangements will be in place by the end of the financial year.
995 The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. These anomalies in this particular area have been known about since November 2017. These were said to be – and I am quoting Dr Couch from his Hansard for the oral evidence session on 1000 28th November 2018, when he said:
… it may be that in a reasonably expeditious timescale that cost profile changes.
The Minister’s current timescale is that that will be implemented by the end of this year. Can the Minister accept where I am coming from in terms of joining some of these dots and how long it is taking to achieve some of these significant projects within the Department of Health? And is he really content with the timescale that it is taking for these changes to happen 1005 at a tactical level, never mind at the strategic level?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1010 Well, firstly, I think I need to say – and most Hon. Members know I am very impatient by nature. If I could, I would do everything today and tomorrow would just have it done!
The Speaker: Better impatient than in-patient, Minister! (Laughter)
1015 The Minister: Yes, very true! We have got the rest of the sitting to go yet, Mr President, so there is time! In relation to consultants’ pay, obviously again it has got to be negotiated and we need to ensure that we are competitive in the consultant market. I do need to emphasise again, Mr President, that one of the reasons this came forward was because there were a lot of 1020 inconsistencies in relation to certain consultants. I need to make clear again to this Hon. Court that it is not all 55 consultants, it was a small cohort; and a lot of those individual cases, I believe, have already been tackled in relation to their performance activity, because that is how their pay is broken down. But what we need to look at is the wider model as well, and that is what is continuing into 1025 this year.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Briefly, Mr President. 1030 Again, would the Minister be in a position to give us an update? He has introduced some new material there about some of these changes that have happened, and whether that would be something that he would be content to share with the Court?
The President: Minister. 1035 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously, I cannot share individualised information, (The Speaker: Yes.) but what information I can share I will be more than happy to circulate.
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11. Home carers looking after relatives – Help and support available
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What help and support is available for carers looking after relatives at home?
The President: Question 11, Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 1040 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what help and support is available for carers looking after relatives at home?
1045 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Ashford.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Under the Social Services Act 2011 anyone has the right to request a carer’s assessment from Adult Social Care. Dependent upon the outcome, the Department may provide support to the 1050 cared-for to allow the carer to have some time off. This may be care at home, respite care in a Department-run care home or a place in a day centre. Signposting may be given in terms of opportunities for carers’ support locally – Manx Decaf, for example – or for wider networks. In addition, the Department’s Community Care Directorate Adult Social Care Division commissions Crossroads Care, a dedicated charity organisation on the Island, to deliver regular 1055 respite to carers who are looking after individuals with complex learning disabilities, physical disabilities, long-term illness or conditions and mental ill health needs. Referred to by Crossroads as their Care at Home Scheme, the service provides support workers who take over the care responsibilities of the carer for a period of time so that the carers receive vital downtime. 1060 The Department currently purchases around 7,000 hours per year of the Care at Home Service. Additional provision as part of the funding arrangement: there are other services available to carers, including respite and emotional support for young carers and day service opportunities.
1065 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for that response. The Minister commented about the carer’s assessment and time off for respite and 7,000 hours for Crossroads Care; can the Minister advise what the budget is that is allocated to this? 1070 I am not sure the Minister will be aware of this but there seems to have been a change in practice and some elderly people are being sent home from A&E and being advised that they need to get private care to help support them in their homes if they have not got anybody there – whether the Minister can comment on that or check on that for me, please? I have got a letter here that I will circulate to Members from somebody who was a carer for a 1075 number of years about the difficulties that they face. I would like to ask the Minister: has he put a proposal in for this year’s Budget as to how we can help carers at home? I think the fee is about £124 per week at the moment. Most people want to care for their relatives at home rather than using these other services. Has he put any proposal in in this year’s Budget to support carers at home rather than ending up in a care situation within his service? 1080 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. ______816 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Obviously, in relation to the Budget I am not going to comment on Budget cases and 1085 proposals a month before the Budget is due to come to this Hon. Court. In relation to what the Hon. Member has raised, I do not have the budget figures with me but I will have them circulated. In terms of people being discharged from A&E and being told they need private care at home, that is the first I have heard of it, Mr President. There is the ability for anyone to be 1090 referred into the Adult Social Care team. There are various ways they can do that. There is the Adult Social Services access team where they can call them on 686179, they can write in to the Third Floor, Murray House, Mount Havelock, or they can actually call up at Murray House in person as well and the office hours are 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday to Thursday and 9 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. on a Friday. They can also, if they wish as well, refer in via email which is 1095 [email protected]. I am not aware of the letter that the Hon. Member is referring to either, but if she circulates that to me I am more than happy to take a look.
The President: Ms Edge, supplementary. 1100 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for obviously providing that detail and phone numbers. Obviously he did not mention anything out of hours and a lot of accidents do happen outside of office hours. I suppose the main question really is that there is a lot of access to support; is there any form 1105 of means-testing for people receiving this support that he has talked about today? Is there a limit or is there some financial assessment done of people requiring any respite … and whether he could circulate the policy to all Members?
The President: Minister to reply. 1110 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am happy to have the policy circulated. The Hon. Member, rightly, raises out-of-hours referrals and it gives me an opportunity to say that out-of-hour referrals, where there is an emergency, can actually be made via Noble’s 1115 Hospital on 650000 and asking for the on-call social worker for adults.
INFRASTRUCTURE
12. Affordable housing – Improving access and availability
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What progress has been made with improving access to and availability of affordable housing; and if he will make a statement?
The President: Question 12, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure what progress has been made with 1120 improving access to and availability of affordable housing; and if he will make a statement?
The President: Minister for Infrastructure, Mr Harmer, to reply. ______817 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Mr President, I would like to thank the Hon. Member for his Question. 1125 By way of clarification, my Department is responsible for the majority, but not all, elements of access to and availability of affordable housing. By way of example, Hon. Members will be aware of the recently published Inquiry into the Draft Area Plan for the East, and of the very recently published Climate Change Mitigation Plan. Both will impact affordable housing provision, and both will require a pan-government approach for a successful outcome. 1130 There are other initiatives within the Programme for Government, such as the work to investigate care and extra care provision and the strategy for keyworker housing as a means to grow the economically active population, which demonstrates that cross-government working is commonplace within this administration. In terms of progress made, for first-time buyers, the introduction of a shared equity scheme 1135 has ensured a more financially sustainable footing and provided a wider offering for those seeking affordable homeownership. This remains a popular choice for eligible applicants looking to purchase for the first time, and has an ever active register of interest. The introduction of a mid-rental pilot by way of bridging the gap between home rental and home ownership is proving to be successful and I will be formally progressing this as another 1140 affordable housing type this year. For public sector housing, and a recommendation of the housing review, the introduction, for the first time, of formally approved access and eligibility criteria for sheltered accommodation, and revised criteria for general needs housing, combined with the introduction of shared housing lists has significantly widened the location choice, refocused on need and has had a 1145 positive impact upon waiting lists and average times on the list. Yes, of course there is still work to be done, and this will be recognised within the new housing strategy; however, Hon Members, I believe we can be proud of what has been achieved so far and look forward to similarly successful outcomes in the future.
1150 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. It is interesting that the very first words out of the Minister’s mouth were essentially, ‘It is not all my job, some of this belongs to somebody else,’ pointing the finger immediately at other 1155 Departments. I would like to ask the Minister who is then the Minister responsible for our housing policy? If it is not him who has overarching overall responsibility for housing policy on the Isle of Man, who does?
The President: Minister to reply. 1160 The Minister: Ultimately, the Council of Ministers and this Court has ultimate responsibility for the housing strategy. I think what is very important is that we work and have been demonstrating to work as a joint Government, as a joint initiative and many of the initiatives we do cut across Department boundaries. We have been working very closely with the Cabinet 1165 Office on a number of issues, with DEFA regarding building standards and so forth; with regard to key worker housing, that revolves around DfE. There is a common misunderstanding that Departments work in silos; they do not, they work across Government, they work across different areas. But there are large areas where we do do quite substantial work. So if you take, for example, 1170 waiting lists, in the public sector waiting list there were 1,400 in 2013; it is now just over 500 and considerably less than forecast, the 1,600 in 2018. That is a real material difference. By having the shared housing initiative which falls into my Department and recognises the work of local authorities, we make a considerable difference.
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Another issue that has been brought about in this Court is regarding whether there is a 1175 central project unit. I can confirm to this Court there is a central project unit, it sits within the Department. It has had officers across the Government, including from Treasury, and for example, in delivering local authority housing they are a very important player to make things happen. We have successfully delivered Clagh Vane – again an environmental initiative. Those houses that are not specifically silver standard have also come close to silver standard, and we 1180 are now pushing forward as that is a minimum standard for all our new housing going forward. We are working with the legislation sub-committee in terms of one thing that I am very passionate about which is the Landlord Registration Act, which I believe will have a significant, massive impact on affordable housing. Another key initiative that we are moving forward as well across Government, again with the 1185 support of Cabinet Office, is the ICT platform. Again, it sounds very technical, it sounds very boring, but will make a huge difference in the way we deliver our customer response, our tenant engagement and be able to really understand where the problems are, where the issues lie. If I give another example, as part of the existing housing strategy we have been working with regard to looking at our housing stock and this has been the basis of an investment plan and this 1190 is looking at how we can deliver our housing in a much better way. So rather than a very bland 13% or whatever, 23%, that a local authority has to deliver its maintenance, we are looking at a much more specific, better way of delivering that investment. So once again there are numerous different initiatives. Again looking at DIT testing on energy performance, we are looking at how we can improve our performance. 1195 What I am trying to say is there is a huge amount of work going on, a lot of it is actually not all seen and a lot of it is cross-Government but absolutely, however, which Department takes what, quite frankly, I do not really care. What I care about is outcomes and we are endeavouring to deliver those outcomes.
1200 The President: We move on … and get through quite a long Order Paper with the length of Answers. Mr Speaker, supplementary.
The Speaker: Thank you. 1205 Two brief questions for the Minister. Firstly, can the Minister give us an idea currently of the size of waiting lists in terms of public sector housing? How is the direction of travel going there? The second one is perhaps a question of detail regarding savings limits for allocation criteria. The £30,000 limit does not seem to be any respecter of age, so even if you approach the age for social housing the same savings limit is there. I have had a case recently of someone who has 1210 bounced in and out of that limit and has had to reapply for social housing. Is that something that the Minister is open to reviewing in the near future?
The President: Minister to reply.
1215 The Minister: Thank you. Yes, sorry. Within that, I can confirm there were 1,400; we are now down to 500 on the waiting list. So that is a third of the stock. And, yes, absolutely, I will review. I think I made a commitment before to look at that and some of the things are about changing the length of tenancy to actually help in those situations. 1220 But there are lots of different solutions, but very much we are willing to engage with the Member.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
1225 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. ______819 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The Minister has made a lot about having reduced the waiting list. I would like it if he could circulate to this Hon. Court the number of people on that waiting list who actually just are no longer on the waiting list because they no longer meet any of those revised, more restrictive criteria; and how many of them were actually housed as a result of changes that the Minister 1230 has made? It is outcomes that I am interested in and the problem is we are not seeing outcomes from his Department. I would like to ask the Minister as well about the first-time buyer schemes: he referenced the introduction of shared equity. I hate to break it to you, Minister, that was 2014 the shared equity scheme was brought in and the fact is they do not work as well as the Department claims. 1235 Will the Minister be reviewing these schemes any time in the near future?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you. 1240 I am more than happy to. Obviously it will take a while to collate that information. For example, if you take the shared list, we have demonstrated across different areas where those shared lists have happened, we have seen waiting lists reduced because basically what they do is if you do not get the land-lock because there are no one-bedroom properties, you can then actually take a property. 1245 Also we are talking about affordable housing for those that need housing, so therefore why would we want people on the waiting lists who should not be prioritised? In the past one of the problems with the previous criteria was that you just got a house because you waited a very long time. That is not targeted – the pointing system I am referring to. What I am saying is we have got a better pointing system. We are seeing numbers come off the waiting list. Obviously I 1250 can go into the detail. In terms of first-time buyers, there has been an improvement; that shared equity scheme was a very good one. We are not resting on our laurels and I am very keen to work with the Member to look at different ideas. For example, we know that there is a gap around mid-rental, so that is another area that I really would like to work with the Member on. 1255 It is not a one-size-fits-all strategy, which is why we are taking a different approach with our strategy. What we are doing is we are trying to consult and have a strategy that goes more than just five years, but 10 years or 15 years.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Cretney. 1260 Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the Minister how does he describe his relationship with local authorities, in particular perhaps Douglas Corporation, the Chair of whose Housing Committee recently expressed some frustration at the Department in relation to the time it took to respond back to 1265 them, and different suggestions that the Department had when the Corporation wished to undertake certain works? If he feels another way is the correct way to undertake works, does he properly explain that to the Corporation Housing Committee so that that frustration may disappear?
1270 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Absolutely, but any political organisation is very canny in the way it approaches and tries to push a particular scheme and uses us as politicians to advance their cause. We work very well with the Douglas Council and we know where they are coming from and we know 1275 where their requirements are. But they do not hold back from letting their feelings known if they want to push, which I would do if I was in their position.
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But it is all part of negotiation. We are actually seeing some really positive things going forward in Willaston, for example. We will see some other things in other areas, I hope, in Lord Street and so forth and Saddlestone. So we are aware we do not always get the information and 1280 the business cases ... But I will leave it there because we have a very good relationship. I would do what they do. They are absolutely right to do it, but we have to obviously defend the public purse as well.
The President: Final supplementary, Ms Edge. 1285 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister agree with me that a lot of the information that has been requested today is local authority information; it is not necessarily the Department’s information with regard to people’s ability to pay? I hope that the Minister agrees with that. However, we can endeavour to 1290 get that information from the local authorities. But any Hon. Member in here can approach the local authorities directly.
The Minister: Thank you, but I did really want to take the opportunity to explain how our central projects unit, which delivers projects more on time and more on budget than may be 1295 apparent, how they work with local authorities to make sure those schemes that come through are good schemes and valid schemes and for the betterment. So one of the things that we are looking to do is improve our environmental standards. We know it is important for this Court and we will be discussing it later, but that is one of the issues that we work through.
13. Peel Marina – New plans for dredging and silt disposal; project cost
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Crookall, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
If he will make a statement on the new plans for dredging Peel Marina and silt disposal; including the total cost of the project?
1300 The President: Question 13, Hon. Member, Mr Crookall.
Mr Crookall: Thank you. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure if he will make a statement on the new plans for dredging Peel Marina and the silt disposal; and include the total cost of the project? 1305 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Harmer.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. The project has now secured approval from Treasury to appoint a contractor to undertake 1310 the first phase of the project. Land and Water Services – LAWS, as we are into acronyms today – will shortly commence construction of the temporary drainage lagoon adjacent to the Peel Power Station site and will commence dredging in early March 2020. Approximately half of the volume of silt in the marina is due to be dredged by TT 2020, with the remainder of the dredging works undertaken during spring 2021. 1315 Peel Marina Project Board evaluated a number of different options, including the permanent closure of the marina, disposal of the silt at sea, use of the Energy from Waste Plant, use of Wright’s Pit North and the Department-owned Turkeyland Old Quarry facility, which is currently ______821 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
being developed by the Department for the Island’s strategic waste landfill. Taking into account cost, environmental impact, risk, vehicle mileage, etc., the board concluded that the Turkeyland 1320 Old Quarry is the most appropriate and cost-effective option. My Department is working with DEFA and Manx Utilities to develop a long-term solution for Peel Marina and identify how the ongoing problem of silt can be dealt with in a sustainable way. The project cost for the works to dredge and dewater the silt at Peel and transport it to Turkeyland is £3,981,736. 1325 The President: Supplementary, Mr Crookall.
Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Minister for the information that he forwarded yesterday to all Members – I think 1330 I saw it went to all Members – in anticipation of the Questions today. And hopefully, after years, we are now in a position where we might be able to sort it. In fact, up until the back end of last year, the Minister looked as though the Department was going to move all the silt up to Foxdale. Can I ask him why it was particularly that they are not using Foxdale now? Was it purely for financial reasons? Also at this stage, does the cost that he has given us just now, just shy of 1335 £4 million, include the 10,200 tons of silt at Rockmount? And you have explained in your papers yesterday, but is that included in the cost of nearly £4 million, going down to Turkeyland?
The President: Minister.
1340 The Minister: I can start in reverse order. No, it does not include St John’s. We are looking at options to do with St John’s and we have been in discussions with commissioners, so we are at an early stage of that. It does seem rather perverse to take stuff out of one hole and put it in another, but we are looking at options. In terms of Cross Vein, in terms of the technology, the criteria have changed with regard to 1345 Turkeyland – sorry, with respect to … As the project developed, it showed the original plan to transport material to Cross Vein and spread over the former waste tip there, without any form of treatment, would not comply with the current planning and environmental requirements. Therefore, if Cross Vein was to be utilised, either it would have to be designated as a landfill facility of stable, non-reactive hazardous waste and managed ongoing accordingly or the silt 1350 would need to be chemically stabilised and treated before being placed at Cross Vein mine – either option. And the cost became a factor, as the Member of Council rightly said. So, yes, it was based on cost.
The President: Supplementary, Miss Costain. 1355 Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr President. Could the Minister confirm that, once all the dredging is up to date, there will be annual dredging to keep the marina in good order? Also, could he confirm over the last however many years, an amount has been included in 1360 the budget for dredging the marina and for keeping it in good order? And would those amounts altogether not amount to more than £3.9 million? What is that money being spent on if they have not been looking after the marina, as they stated they wanted the money for in the budget?
1365 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you. So in terms of, yes, there was an amount; I do not know the exact figure, I think it is around £50,000 to £100,000 a year. I think the problem is that had there been annual dredging, in my ______822 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
1370 view, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that we would not really be in this position and we would not have to go to more complicated solutions. Yes, the anticipation is that we dredge annually going forward. A mantra of mine is that if you provide proper maintenance, you do not get into situations like that. That is why it has always been a passion of mine within Infrastructure to maintain well 1375 so that we can avoid long-term costs.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Crookall.
Mr Crookall: Thank you. 1380 If it is the final supplementary I have got a few questions, Mr President.
The President: Not too many, I hope!
Mr Crookall: On the back of what the Minister has just said there regarding Rockmount, if he 1385 is envisaging having consultation with the local authority and looking to leave the silt there that is in place, the 10,200 tonnes, I presume that will need redesignation as it basically is a tip, as Turkeyland will be. It has got to be classed as the same. What is really upsetting about this is in 2017, the Minister put out a press release:
Longer term proposals also include the creation of a licensed problematic waste site in the Island. This would be engineered to accept marina silt and to provide a permanent home for the 10,200 tonnes of dredged material currently stored at Rockmount …
– and that now has to be moved, as it stands at the moment, by August 2020. 1390 So three years ago we thought we could do this and now we are looking at it. So in that time another 10,000 to 12,000 tonnes of material has come down, which is going to cost about an extra million pounds instead of if we had done it then. Can I have the Minister’s thoughts on that one, why we have taken three years to decide that? I know you have been looking for cheaper ways of doing it, but it is got to be safe, and Miss Costain has just asked about the ongoing 1395 maintenance. But also, finally, does the Minister not think that in the last week or two since he put out his latest press release, somebody from the Department – bearing in mind what has gone on down on Douglas promenade – should have been in the area talking to the local businesses, telling them and explaining to them, ‘We are now at the stage where it is going to start happening next 1400 week. We have got diggers in the area and we have got people on the ground … ?’ Because none of them have been spoken to in the last two weeks, and now all of a sudden they are going to get dozens of wagons a day backwards and forwards in the next couple of weeks past their businesses, and nobody has explained to them what is happening. They have had the press release, but nobody … 1405 And we, Government, have made some big mistakes lately on the promenade, so let’s not do it again, because this is a two-and-a-half-year project, Minister.
The President: Minister.
1410 The Minister: Taking the last point first again, I think this project has been very well advertised. I want to put on record my thanks to the project board headed by Hon. Member, Tim Baker, and the different way we did this with cross-Department working with DEFA. I have to put on record my thanks to them because they have worked in incredibly difficult situations; this is a 1415 really difficult problem and to be quite frank it would have been easier to have walked away, as so many have done in the past.
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I want to thank all of those – Mark Kenyon and Paul … the names go on … Those officers have actually done a fantastic, sterling job to make this happen. Because it is highly technical, it is not something where you can pinpoint and say ‘That is absolutely the solution’ – until you have gone 1420 through those verifications, until you have gone through it with all of the other specialists to actually finally deliver the solution. Yes, there was communication that went out, once the contract was awarded. We had lots of communication beforehand and a number of the stakeholders that are saying they have not had communication, we believe have. We do believe it is always an area that we can improve on and 1425 we will do that. But I think underlining this all is that actually this is an administration, this is a Tynwald that does not duck tough issues, it does not duck the prom, it does not duck other issues that are facing it. It deals with the problems and moves forward. And that is really what we need to do now.
14. Peel Marina dredging – Consultants’ cost
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Crookall, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
How much consultants cost including those that have done testing of silt in relation to dredging Peel Marina?
The President: Question 14. Mr Crookall. 1430 Mr Crookall: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure how much consultants cost including those that have done testing of silt in relation to dredging Peel Marina is, please?
1435 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. The first phase of the Peel Marina dredging project includes the construction of the temporary drainage lagoon, dredging of the marina silt and transporting the silt from the marina 1440 to the lagoon and removing the temporary drainage lagoon. The costs of the consultants involved in testing, the project development, design and managing the dredging contractor is £684,251.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Crookall. 1445 Mr Crookall: Just to thank the Minister again for his information that he put out to Hon. Members yesterday with those figures, and just to ask: does that include any costs involved by DEFA – and I am sure you probably will not know, but I am just asking – when they had the harbour silt tested? If that does not include that, can he please get those for us and forward 1450 them to Members, please?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes, I can do that. 1455 Mr Crookall: Thank you.
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POLICY AND REFORM
15. Public Services Commission – Employee groups to be transferred
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
Which employee groups he intends to transfer to the Public Services Commission in the future in order to comply with the Equality Act?
The President: Question 15, Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 1460 I would like to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform which employee groups he intends to transfer to the Public Services Commission in the future in order to comply with the Equality Act?
The President: Minister for Policy and Reform, Mr Thomas, to reply. 1465 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. As stated in this Hon. Court in December, it is the overall policy to enlarge the PSC to cover more employment groups on the Island in cases where terms and conditions are not linked primarily to counterpart employment groups in the United Kingdom, such as parts of the NHS, 1470 teachers, police and the fire service. I also stated that a key driver for this is the introduction of the new equal pay provisions of the Equality Act 2017 and the benefits for employers to operate a single consistent job evaluation scheme and pay and grading structure across its workforce. However, I am not in a position to go into specific details about any specific employment groups at present as this 1475 would pre-empt formal communication and consultation with staff concerned and their staff representatives.
The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.
1480 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President; I would like to thank the Minister for that response. But clearly there are projects ongoing. Can the Minister give a timeline as to when these projects will be complete? I appreciate that he may not have negotiated with employee groups but he must have a project timeline.
1485 The President: The Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you. There are projects ongoing in HR. We have a People Strategy, we have a People Action Plan, there are massive projects ongoing with JEGS, but there are no specific projects to do with 1490 transferring other groups to the PSC. I cannot give a specific timetable. The Office of Human Resources has a number of large projects on the go related to compliance with the Equality Act, specifically and including the finalisation of the industrial JEGS project, a review of departmental grades, and a job evaluation scheme for the Educational Support Staff group and other former DESC employees. 1495 Discussions with other staff groups will commence as soon as resources allow. So there are no specific projects ongoing at the moment.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker. ______825 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President. 1500 The Minister has made it clear that he sees the increasing centralisation and standardisation across Departments – the growth of the PSC. Does he recognise that, as we centralise more and become bigger and more centralised, there is a risk that this ends up slowing down some of our recruitment and people management practices across the public service? And that this particularly applies to those Departments which are more different from the standard Civil 1505 Service model? Will he commit that, as well as pushing on this path that he has already defined, he will take a look at how well things are actually really working out there? If we cannot get the right people into our public service, and the right responsiveness, we will really struggle to deliver good service and good outcomes to the people of the Island. 1510 The President: Mr Thomas.
The Minister: Thank you. Just before Christmas, in December Tynwald, I made a pledge that we would have Members’ 1515 engagement, a specific briefing and open dialogue about various projects and projects around the Equality Act; and the hon. questioner has made a very good point then that we need to actually explain more fully the whole of the People Strategy and the People Action Plan. It is not about centralisation; it is about optimisation, and everything is under review. I can assure every Member of this Hon. Court and the wider public that the Public Services 1520 Commission is constantly questioning the performance of the strategies and the action plans and the people involved in all sorts of ways. I think it would be helpful to make sure that this Hon. Court is fully au fait with PSC changes and with the People Strategy and action plans. I will make sure that we begin that dialogue around the same time as we fulfil our previous commitment in terms of JEGS and Equality Act projects. 1525 The President: Supplementary, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much. I welcome the Minister’s reference to optimisation and clearly if something is working well it 1530 makes sense to build on it; and if something is not working well it makes absolute sense to change it. So, where things are not optimised, is the Minister open to potentially alternative models and possibly even more delegated authority in Departments?
The President: Minister to reply. 1535 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President; and to the hon. questioner. Of course the Minister is open to make things better than they are. But we clearly need to separate out the Equality Act issues and the issues around job evaluation and grading, which is what this question is about, and some other issues about perceptions of issues with other 1540 aspects of HR. And I will be very pleased to talk with the hon. questioner. Also I will put on record that as far as I am concerned it is stated that not everybody is the same and things will need to be different in different places, and that is a fundamental point that the PSC and others involved have in mind when they are working across the Government and across the wider public service for people action. 1545 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister agree with me, picking up the points that have been raised by the Hon. 1550 Member for Ayre and Michael, that the PSC is very concerned to ensure that the way in which it ______826 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
progresses seeks optimisation where possible; because that ultimately, actually, should enable more efficient and effective recruitment and management, and so on, where we are able to optimise policies and procedures that are applicable around groups of staff, so there is not as much variation. But obviously where there is a need or a good case to be made for something to 1555 operate slightly differently, then the PSC is very mindful of that?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: I completely agree with the hon. questioner and let’s just give one example 1560 from the Equality Act Job Evaluation System. It cannot make sense to have 84 grades, which is what we have got in that sector; and we are currently looking at skill zones and pay grades based on those zones. So that is one project. A second point is that it cannot really make sense to have differences in terms of capability, discipline and all the other related policies which are confusing for people, and unions, and the 1565 general public. So there are two areas where a degree of harmonisation is necessary. But it is absolutely accepted that people are different, situations are different and we need to balance the differences as well as the benefits that come from harmonisation and optimisation.
The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge. 1570 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I just wonder if the Minister could comment with regard to the question on equality. In this Hon. Court in December when there was a transfer of the Education Support Officers, a much- valued resource, it was stated that it was because of the Equality Act and equal pay. 1575 I am just wondering whether the Minister can comment, that some of the comments he has made today do not seem to reflect why that urgency was there for that to be completed by 1st January. And can he comment as to why that group was picked out under equality and equal pay?
1580 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It is a very good question and a very helpful question, and I appreciate it. That is a very large group and for various reasons it was discussed in Tynwald much more 1585 than we first anticipated. There are other smaller groups that have been affected by this sort of change and there will be in the future, as I have said, although there are no specific projects. And to confirm what I said in December, and the idea I tried to put across in December, is that we do have a risk. There are remaining groups which would be better to be included within wider scale groups, and we are taking a risk by not doing everything at once. But we have to do 1590 what is possible and we have to do it in an organised way; and we have to do it after consultation with the staff and inside the collective bargaining and other arrangements around these sorts of processes. We cannot do everything at once. We have to do things properly. We do have some risks from the Equality Act in certain areas and we are mitigating those through the process. It is a 1595 well-organised process that we are putting in place.
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16. Sub-post offices becoming mini Welcome Centres – Discussions held with Post Office
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
What discussions have been held with the Post Office about sub-post offices becoming mini Welcome Centres across the Island?
The President: Question 16, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform what discussions have been held with 1600 the Post Office about sub-post offices becoming mini Welcome Centres across the Island?
The President: I call on the Minister for Policy and Reform.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. 1605 I thank the Hon. Member for his Question, and also his reference to the Answer I gave to the Hon. Court in July last year. At that time, I advised that conversations held in March 2019 had concluded with the Post Office considering the costs and benefits in delivering the services of the Welcome Centre in regional centres or in places different from where they are delivered now. 1610 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister, for that encouraging Answer. 1615 Does the Minister agree with me that the survival of sub-post offices really requires income generators and that the Welcome Centre concept could potentially do this by bringing a mix of tourist information and local produce?
The President: Reply, sir. 1620 The Minister: The Welcome Centre is not an income generator. The Welcome Centre provides services for the public service. The Welcome Centre actually tries to tackle issues of access to public services, providing basic information signposting to more detailed information. The Welcome Centre’s budget has fallen from £400,000 to £300,000 in the last few years and 1625 it is constantly looking at ways to innovate to increase the effectiveness of what it does with those limited resources. I was very pleased to have engaged with the Post Office but the Post Office has a strategy which it is implementing and the Welcome Centre works with the public service to maximise the effectiveness of the way the entire public service, if that is what is needed, provides information 1630 about what it does and signposts more expertise and information after that basic information has been provided.
The President: Mr Speaker.
1635 The Speaker: Thank you. Given that one of the purposes that the Minister outlined there was about access to information and signposting, could I ask if in the conversations with the Post Office there was included any consideration of their role in digital inclusion in the regions and if not, how people ______828 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
are going to be digitally included, if they do live in rural communities, in any other network than 1640 the Post Office network around the communities of the Island?
The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Digital inclusion is a very important topic in its own right. This Hon. Court will 1645 remember that the Isle of Man chairs the British-Irish Council of Digital Inclusion work sector. This Hon. Court should also know that in the other place, back in November, I announced a Government Services project where we would look again at digital inclusion and I made, I think, a bold statement about that. Let’s remember that sub-post offices are often located in shops and shops are not the sort of 1650 places that have lots of space for spare computers and lots of places for people to be trained on how to use computers. They are not the sort of places that can have lots and lots of information stands because that is space that could be used for generating an income. Absolutely post offices are key in the communities; absolutely post offices can be helpful in signposting and providing basic information. But it is a difficult issue and the idea that the digital 1655 project and the Welcome Centre project is a source of revenue for the Post Office and for sub- post offices is a separate question, a different question.
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
1660 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. If the idea of Welcome Centres – which has connotations really of tourism, visitors and things like that – is being looked at, will the Minister look at the idea of town and village halls being used for something like this? I know in the UK, as a new initiative, they are also looking at how town and village halls might 1665 be used, and it is really the idea of co-location, keeping things in the community and also to recognise they have side benefits to do with helping people feel less lonely and less isolated. Perhaps if local authority reform is going to be looked at or the integration between what happens at a national and local level that is something that could be considered alongside Welcome Centres? 1670 Thank you.
The President: Mr Thomas.
The Minister: Digital inclusion is an important project alongside the Post Office retailing 1675 strategy. Isolation and the future of local communities is an important topic, alongside digital inclusion and the future of post offices. How we provide health services in the community is an important project, alongside digital inclusion and the future of the Welcome Centres and so on. The project initiated by the Treasury to work with local authorities to put in job centres and benefits claims inside local authorities is a good project but it has to be seen against all those 1680 other strands. Of course, we want to join all of those things together. Of course, in the centre of Government we are trying to join all those things together. And I do think it will be a major project in 2020, to come back to this Hon. Court with those things wrapped together into one place much more. This Chief Minister, I know, thinks this is important as well, the Treasury 1685 Minister does. We will bring all of these things together into one place by the end of 2020.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper. No? Sorry, my apologies. Ms Edge.
1690 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. ______829 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
I just really want to stand and, the Minister for Policy and Reform has just touched on it, the Chief Minister does have a committee about our communities and what services can be … so the Post Office will be willing to be part of that. But with regard to all of this, funding is the key. Our sub-post office network is private 1695 businesses that receive income from transactions and this is all key to providing these services, but I think this community committee that has been set up is key to everything that has just been discussed.
The President: Minister. 1700 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I was going to use this line later, but my hon. friend from Cabinet Office, Dr Allinson, can do anything but he cannot do everything, and I do not think that the committee that he is chairing for the Chief Minister on community and isolation and mobile phones and charities and so on, 1705 can absolutely do everything. But what I can pledge – and I am sure Dr Allinson would want to agree with this – is the work that he is leading, with the same staff who are doing many of the other things, will be completed and by the end of 2020 we can come back with an integrated whole, across the whole … but there are only three or four officers behind all of this and there are only three politicians in Cabinet Office behind all of this, so we are pretty joined up. 1710 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I was a little intrigued by the Minister’s response about community hubs and a great deal of 1715 thought about integrating Treasury systems into the communities. He will perhaps remember that I was a member of the team for ‘Customer First’, which is probably seven or eight years ago, and when he spoke about the community hubs it struck me, could he tell us, if he has not held discussions specifically with the Post Office about sub-post offices becoming mini Welcome Centres, have discussions taken place with other organisations and town halls, building on what 1720 the Hon. Member of Council said? To me, it seems like this was all determined eight years ago, political will changed, and we are just going round and round in circles without determining what the clear policy is to be able then to deliver the community services in the community that the community wants. So can he advise if post offices or other offices, local authority offices, have been involved in those 1725 discussions and can he give any indication which way he is leaning? Thank you.
The President: Minister to reply.
1730 The Minister: Thank you. Mr President has obviously given me chance to go way beyond the original scope of the Question, I am pleased to do that, but this Hon. Court will remember that in July and then again in November I mentioned that Ramsey Town Commissioners had worked very well with us about possibly replicating it in a way Welcome Centre facilities in the Isle of Man. Most importantly in 1735 November I announced a project to begin to answer all these questions, and I do think, as my hon. friend, Mrs Lord Brennan, from Council has suggested, that local authorities are absolutely a crucial part of all this. Post offices are different in a sense because they do transactions, but the idea that they have lots of space for information and for training for digital inclusion … is slightly different from that. 1740 So therefore we have a project ongoing now and we will report back to this Hon. Court in good time.
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ENTERPRISE
17. 2020 TT Schedule – When consultation decision was made
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:
When the decision to go to consultation on the revised 2020 TT Schedule was made?
The President: Question 17, Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 1745 I would like to ask the Minister for Enterprise when the decision to go to consultation on the revised 2020 TT Schedule was made?
The President: I call on the Minister for Enterprise, Mr Skelly, to reply.
1750 The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I can advise that the Department was always aware that the Department of Infrastructure would require a consultation with the residents around the course at least, as part of the closure application process. Initially, a press release was circulated identifying both the proposed changes to the road 1755 closures for 2020 and the changes to the actual event timings within those closure periods. This was done to give pre-warning of the proposals. This elicited a small response directly to the Department. On receiving the application from the Race Organiser, the Department of Infrastructure requested that the Department for Enterprise undertake a consultation with those likely to be 1760 affected by the changes. A decision was taken within the Department to broaden the consultation to all residents, rather than just those on the Mountain Course, and to those volunteers and organisations who are involved in the event. To that end a public consultation via the Consultation Hub was launched along with appropriate press notifications. 1765 That consultation ends on 31st January. If Hon. Members have not as yet responded, I would encourage them to do so if they have strong feelings either way. Gura mie eu.
The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge. 1770 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to ask the Minister, depending on the outcome of that consultation when they have already announced back in June to race organisers and race teams – I am looking at a website here now, Bennetts TT that are advising people of the changes to the schedule. 1775 If that consultation comes back and it is a negative response, how is he going to deal with anybody that has prior booked or made any changes to their plans for TT 2020?
The President: Minister to reply.
1780 The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. It is a consultation and they are just proposals at this stage, and clearly we do not want to pre-empt the end of that consultation. But all those views will be taken into consideration before a final decision is made. And of course the Department of Infrastructure, who does actually have the road closure notice, will be involved with that process. ______831 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
1785 The President: Ms Edge, supplementary.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I am just wondering if the Minister could ensure for any future changes to anything to do with the TT, that the consultation process takes place before making announcements of possible 1790 changes so that everybody has the opportunity to not perhaps book, as they will have done this year. I do have real concerns that people will be on Island looking at this new schedule and we do not actually have a consultation outcome yet.
The President: Minister to reply. 1795 The Minister: Gura mie eu. Yes, I do recognise – and we should always recognise – that the TT, as well as the Classic TT and the MGP, does cause disruption and whenever there are any proposed changes we should follow process in terms of the consultation, as already mentioned. 1800 So I do accept that there are those who may have made plans. I certainly would apologise that it has taken as long as it has, but discussions were ongoing for quite some time before that final decision was made. But I think that was done when the press release went out in early December and there is until the end of January to respond. And I again encourage those who have not done so, please do so.
18. Potential decline in post office counters – DfE concerns raised
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:
What concerns have been raised by his Department, in its capacity as sponsoring Department for the Post Office, about the potential decline over the next five years in the number of functioning post office counters?
1805 The President: Question 18, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Enterprise what concerns have been raised by his Department in its capacity as sponsoring Department for the Post Office, about the potential 1810 decline over the next five years in the number of functioning post office counters?
The President: The Minister, Mr Skelly, to reply.
The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 1815 While the Department for Enterprise is the sponsoring Department for the Post Office, the Isle of Man Post Office is constituted as a Statutory Board of Tynwald under the Post Office Act 1993. The board controls the strategy, policies and key financial and operational matters within the Isle of Man Post Office. Under the terms of the Act, the Post Office is under a financial duty to balance its books yearly and make allocations to the reserves it considers appropriate, or as 1820 directed by the Treasury. I have an ongoing dialogue, including a one-to-one meeting with the Chairman and the CEO of the Post Office, and from time to time I meet the full board.
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In December 2018, this Hon. Court asked the Post Office to report back with its plans in the light of the challenges it faces to its core business sectors, and the concern felt for its future 1825 prospects. That report was received and its recommendations approved by this Hon. Court in October 2019. The Department recognises the challenges facing the retail network and will continue to maintain its dialogue with the Post Office to support the network in navigating the plan as approved by this Hon. Court. 1830 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President; and thank you, Minister, for that Answer. Following Tynwald support for the Post Office Strategy in October, has the Department 1835 carried out an impact assessment of closures and potential closures on local businesses and residents?
The President: Mr Skelly to reply.
1840 The Minister: Gura mie eu. No, the Department has not carried out an impact assessment, as the Hon. Member has asked.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Baker. 1845 Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister consider that the Department is the right Department to be the sponsoring Department for IOM Post Office, given that the Department for Enterprise’s focus is primarily business and promoting enterprise? The Post Office’s focus is very much about the service and it 1850 clearly has widespread social value across the Island, which perhaps is not front of mind in the Department for Enterprise’s remit. And secondly, there is of course a potential conflict between the legitimate activities of Isle of Man Post Office and those of other commercial operators on the Island, particularly those engaged in logistics and deliveries. Does that put the Department in a difficult position? 1855 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Gura mie eu. Yes, that is a valid question I think from the Hon. Member. Are we the right Department as 1860 the sponsoring Department? I guess it is a question for this Court to determine. Clearly, we are managing it from a historical standpoint. There are, I think, obviously overlaps and I have got a question from Loayreyder shortly with regard to retail and I can see the potential synergies there. So I recognise that. But, as I say, it is a question really for this Court. But I think he does make another point there about not just the economic value but also the 1865 social benefit, which I think we would all recognise.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. 1870 Would the Minister agree with me that the sub-post offices are small private businesses, and so I think his Department is the right Department to represent them?
The President: Minister.
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1875 The Minister: Gura mie eu; thank you for that question. Yes, of course, as a private business, part of retail there is a connection to that. As I say, we do accept that role, that responsibility and continue with that work. And to go back to the original Question we do have continued open dialogue – or I do – with the board.
1880 The President: Final supplementary, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. As the sponsoring Department, when was the Department made aware by the Isle of Man Post Office that the sub-post office in Ballasalla was not being advertised for a replacement 1885 operator?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Gura mie eu. 1890 I do not have that actual date but we were I think given notice of that, appropriately, as we would do as the sponsoring Department. But I do not have that exact date.
19. Retail sector – Plan to protect and enhance; assessment of significance
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:
What the plan is for protecting and enhancing the retail sector; and what assessment he has made of the significance of this sector for local communities?
The President: Question 19, Hon. Member Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. 1895 To ask the Minister for Enterprise what the plan is for protecting and enhancing the retail sector; and what assessment he has made of the significance of this sector for local communities?
The President: Minister, to reply. Mr Skelly. 1900 The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. My Department recognises the significance of the retail sector to us as it underpins our quality of life on the Island. However, the domestic economy, including retail, is currently under substantial financial 1905 pressure. Globally, the retail sector is contending with rising operating costs including rents and wages, meaning that previously successful businesses are now having to survive on narrower profit margins. The Department has limited powers and funds to support the domestic economy but has brought forward further support for the Promenade, in addition to retail and hospitality sectors. 1910 This is on top of the schemes available through the Department including the Micro Business Grant Scheme, Town and Village Regeneration Scheme, Business Improvement Scheme and Business Energy Saving Scheme. Last year, the Department carried out a STEP scheme project to look into the state of retail on the Island. One of the most important things that retail businesses have identified is that 1915 securing the future of the sector requires investment in modernising their businesses. ______834 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
In addition, the Business Agency is running a Town Branding Project which has been focused on distilling the unique selling points of each town and village across the Island. This project also offers a small marketing budget for those towns and villages to promote themselves. However, there is more we can do and one of the main priorities of the Business Agency is to 1920 look at new ways to help the domestic economy. We will be keeping a close eye on what happens globally, as the situation on the Island is not unique. In summary, it is a complex area, but one we recognise is vitally important in ensuring the Island is a special place to live, work and visit.
1925 The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. Does the Minister agree with the statement made by his ministerial colleague just three Questions ago that ‘post offices are key in the communities’ – as a quote? And in terms of the 1930 role of rural post offices does he believe that they are vital in maintaining the footfall and viability of small village communities as viable retail entities? And how is that squared with the Post Office’s policy, supported by the Council of Ministers, of withdrawing from these types of businesses in rural areas?
1935 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Gura mie eu. Yes, I absolutely do accept they are key, especially in the rural areas. We should accept that and it is well worth noting that these private businesses do operate supplemental businesses 1940 from within these post offices, and footfall is key and important. But the overriding issue with regard to retail is that it is a challenging environment and I think we have to accept the changing shopping pattern, shall we say, of the general public, which is not unique to the Isle of Man, is one that we have to accept and understand. But what I will point out, in that dialogue in the previous Question, is that we will be looking 1945 to see how we find other opportunities, not just the social opportunities but the economic opportunities, that could be directed through the sub-post office network.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
1950 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree that there is only so much the Government can do to support the retail network, and it is also up to the citizens of the Isle of Man to shop local and support that retail network themselves if they expect it to survive?
1955 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Yes, gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane; absolutely. 1960 We all have a responsibility as an island population, I think, to shop local if we value our retail sector. But what we do monitor very closely – I did mention it in the original Answer – is the trends. In the Business Confidence Survey, which we very much value as an up-to-date view of where the industries are on the Isle of Man, it was interesting to see that 56% believe that their business and their sales will grow within the next six months; and over 50% of the retail sector 1965 believe that their employment will grow. So whilst I accept there are differing conditions going on around the Island as well, not just in Douglas’s main shopping area … And again that comes back to the Town Branding Project which ______835 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
we, as the Business Agency, have engaged with and we hope we will then be able to promote more localised shopping around the Island. 1970 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. On the Town Branding Project, would the Minister be happy to circulate something to do 1975 with the economic benefits of that project? And perhaps he might comment on what sort of issues and problems it is trying to solve with branding the towns. Thank you.
The President: Minister. 1980 The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Yes, it is predominantly a marketing exercise. There is a small marketing budget set aside. I have been involved with it in my own local areas, as Loayreyder has, and it has been very much engaging with the traders, and the opportunity as national politicians to get involved. And local 1985 politicians and any heritage groups or other interested stakeholders can also get involved with that. The feedback initially has been positive and we hope that we can build upon that.
The President: Mr Speaker. 1990 The Speaker: Thank you. Does the Minister also accept that local retail in its various forms is an essential part of the quality of life that we offer here on the Isle of Man? And what ideas are his Business Agency looking at to support, what I would call those retail 1995 communities teetering – such as places like Ballasalla and possibly Port St Mary – so that they do not end up like places like Ballabeg, with no retail presence at all?
The President: Minister to reply.
2000 The Minister: Yes, gura mie eu. Of course, it comes back to the branding project that we are working on there with the support. And there are several other schemes that we do have – the Business Improvement Scheme and the Business Energy Saving Scheme are opportunities, as well as the Town and Village Regeneration Scheme. 2005 So there are some schemes there that are already available to the retail industry of the Island. But I would come back to the number one challenge for retail and the domestic economy in general, and that is costs – and those main costs are of course wages, and there are rents. We just saw yesterday on the UK national news a major department store closure, and it seems like almost a daily, not weekly, occurrence that there is a serious impact. But I do come 2010 back from a general sense – without it just being about the Post Office – of retail industry. And the Business Confidence Survey does give us some reason for confidence and we hope that we can build upon that. But again we do all need to play our role about shopping local.
The President: Miss August-Hanson. 2015 Miss August-Hanson: Thank you, Mr President. I just wanted to ask the Minister whether or not there are key performance indicators in place to measure the success of the town branding projects?
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2020 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Gura mie eu. We have not got to that particular stage at this moment in time. However, I will tell you that if you do – and I know I do, and as I say Loayreyder does, we meet with our retailers very 2025 regularly, monthly in fact actually; and you get a real good state of affairs with regard to retail in your own local area if you do engage at that particular level. I encourage you all to do so because there are traders, there is the Chamber of Commerce and there are different stakeholder groups you can meet with.
2030 The President: Supplementary, Mr Cretney.
Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I am not sure whether I heard the Minister correctly or not in his remarks just then, where I think he said that the major factor was wages, whereas it appears to me that the major factor is 2035 very often rents. And that has certainly been the case in I think the example he described yesterday which I also saw on the news; and, certainly in Douglas, that is a major factor in terms of smaller independent retailers.
The President: Minister. 2040 The Minister: Gura mie eu. Yes, I said both actually, Hon. Member. So costs in general have been increasing and that has been an issue. So wages is one and certainly rent is another one, and we do know how rental costs do appear quite high on the Island. 2045 But I would also highlight that there are other mechanisms there with regard to – I know regeneration and we have had a lot of discussion with regard to that – that there are also rate rebates, because rates does come up from time to time too as part of the cost issue.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Shimmins. 2050 Mr Shimmins: Thank you very much, Mr President. I have been listening with interest to the various reasons why retail is facing a number of challenges. Would the Minister agree with me that actually the internet is a major reason? Clearly, that is not a cost, but it has lost sales for these retailers. 2055 And secondly, would he also agree that many retailers, particularly actually in his constituency, are complaining about the length of time roadworks have been carried on outside their retail premises? And if there is one thing this Government could do, it would be to halve the amount of time we do roadworks outside shops, because that does not help them.
2060 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Yes, gura mie eu. 2065 I think it is very sharply on the minds of Members, particularly with the promenade debate last month. But I would, having lived through regeneration projects, fully take on board the Hon. Member’s comments. Clearly roadworks and the disruption that occurs is an impact on the retail industry, and the hospitality industries in general, and there have been quotes given to me that it can take up to three to four years to see those sales return after those works are done. 2070 So while it is pain, clearly Government does try and do these project works as quickly as possible. But collectively we do need to try and make things as fast as possible. (Interjection) ______837 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
20. Pupils receiving free school meals – Number by school in last 10 years; budget allocated
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
How many pupils have received free school meals in each school in each of the last 10 years; and what budget was allocated?
The President: We turn to Question 20. Now, as provided for in Standing Orders, a detailed Written Answer was circulated yesterday:
Table 20A 2010- 2011- 2012- 2013- 2014- 2015- 2016- 2017- 2018- 2019- 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Anagh Coar 33 46 50 47 63 72 60 57 49 46 Andreas 27 27 31 28 24 21 18 21 15 13 Arbory 10 10 10 15 13 21 25 27 28 25 Ashley Hill 35 36 36 41 30 28 27 39 32 28 Ballacottier 28 37 34 42 46 52 47 48 35 32 Ballasalla 25 32 31 30 35 36 32 33 37 29 Ballaugh 0 2 4 6 7 10 12 10 13 9 Braddan 17 17 19 30 34 37 39 43 42 41 Rhumsaa 80 84 84 93 106 115 111 118 120 120 Cronk-y-Berry 40 49 65 77 82 83 80 83 90 83 Dhoon 3 3 4 8 7 9 7 7 11 9 Foxdale 6 3 5 12 9 8 8 5 18 24 Henry Bloom 65 62 59 60 63 75 94 99 96 84 Jurby 16 20 22 23 29 35 25 27 27 21 Kewaigue 7 13 12 19 14 11 10 8 9 6 Laxey 13 11 13 18 18 19 25 23 18 23 Manor Park 45 59 61 68 71 61 53 44 42 42 Marown Low number - potential to identify pupils Michael 4 4 6 5 6 7 12 12 11 9 Onchan 38 48 60 61 72 61 69 77 86 79 Peel Clothworkers’ 57 46 52 62 75 90 89 85 109 101 Rushen 44 52 59 55 55 62 45 49 50 41 Phurt le Moirrey 16 18 23 25 27 29 35 31 26 22 Scoill Vallajeelt 9 6 11 14 15 17 10 8 9 6 Scoill Yn Jubilee 54 45 55 58 65 67 85 79 67 63 St John’s 24 19 27 25 21 19 26 20 25 24 St Marys RC 24 38 44 52 53 55 60 46 43 42 St Thomas’ C of E Low number - potential to identify pupils Sulby 12 15 17 16 10 11 10 13 12 18 Victoria Road 49 60 60 71 71 83 74 71 75 79 Willaston 39 39 51 62 74 67 77 60 65 67 Primary Total 828 918 1,021 1,139 1,207 1,271 1,274 1,249 1,265 1,196 Ballakermeen 233 227 232 227 242 229 243 257 268 266 Castle Rushen 114 117 133 142 154 145 145 151 145 131 Queen Elizabeth II 70 70 78 78 73 73 72 70 71 81 Ramsey Grammar 139 143 139 145 158 145 129 109 107 115 St Ninian’s 129 149 141 167 173 185 168 155 174 168 Secondary Total 685 706 723 759 800 777 757 742 765 761 Grand Total 1,513 1,624 1,744 1,898 2,007 2,048 2,031 1,991 2,030 1,957
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Eligibility for free school meals is a ‘passported’ benefit provided to children of families on 2075 means-tested benefits. Because of the way data is recorded, Table 20A represents a snapshot of the number of pupils registered for free school meals (FSM) on the 1st November in each of the last 10 years. The number of pupils in receipt of free school meals in two of our primary schools are so low, that there is a risk individual pupils could be identified. The breakdown has therefore been 2080 excluded from the data set; however, they are included within the overall totals. The Hon. Member will be fully aware of the challenges in reconciling the annual budget running April to March against pupil numbers running for the academic year. Each annual budget crosses two academic years. Table 20B shows the financial year budget in each of the last 10 years.
Table 20B 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20 340,000 360,000 465,000 465,000 473,800 473,800 680,100 680,100 680,100 680,100
2085 The number of pupils in receipt of FSM has increased by 29% since 2010 at the same time the pupil roll has decreased by 185 (12%).The percentage of total school roll eligible for FSM was 12.8% in 2010; it rose to a high of 17.5% in 2014-15. On 1st November 2019, 16.8% of the school roll were eligible for FSM. The length of time a pupil remains eligible for FSM will impact upon the budget level. 2090 However, the increase in numbers eligible for FSM accounts for £200,000 of the budget increase, and a further £150,000 is as a result of an increase in the cost of a school meal. In 2010-11 the cost of primary meal was £1.85. This has increased by an average of 2% each year and the current cost is £2.30. In secondary schools the value has increased from £2.50 to £2.90.
2095 The President: With that in mind, I invite the Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge, to put any supplementary.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. It should really have been a Written Question in the first place so, thank you. 2100 The President: In that case, thank you.
21. In-house teacher training – Schools’ employment of graduates
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
How schools will employ graduates to train in-house to be teachers?
The President: Question 21, Hon. Member for Onchan again, Ms Edge.
2105 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture how schools will employ graduates to train in-house to be teachers?
The President: The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, Mr Cregeen. 2110
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The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. In order to address ongoing recruitment issues, particularly in shortage subjects, staff are occasionally employed as unqualified teachers while they undertake initial teacher training in Manx schools. Such posts are rare and only advertised locally if a school is unable to appoint a 2115 qualified teacher and has the capacity within its own team to support, develop and assess staff new to teaching. Currently the Department offers two main pathways to support qualifications of small numbers of secondary school teachers in difficult to recruit subjects: the CertEd (FAHE) or the CertEd Post14 Education at UCM followed by professional information and the award of QTLS. 2120 The assessment-only route through university that leads to the award of Qualified Teacher Status, the Department employ on non-qualified teacher scale.
The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge.
2125 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. If the Minister could circulate, if he has not got the information in front of him, how many teachers are currently being trained under the unqualified teachers’ pay scales? The Minister again is clearly not aware that a number of these employees are employed via the education support officer route to become qualified teachers, so can the Minister advise 2130 how, in the future, now that these employers are with the PSC, he is going to be able to train these employees?
The President: Minister to reply.
2135 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I will circulate.
The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.
2140 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Can you make sure that it is a breakdown of unqualified teachers currently being trained and getting paid that way and unqualified teachers being payed as ESOs, please.
The President: Minister. 2145 The Minister: I will ask officers to review Hansard and make sure the answer is correct.
POST OFFICE
22. Sub-postmasters – Why roles not advertised since 2016
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
Why the Post Office has not advertised the role of sub-postmaster since 2016?
The President: Question 22, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. ______840 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
2150 I would like to ask the Chair of the Post Office why the Post Office has not advertised the role of sub-postmaster since 2016?
The President: I call on the Chair of the Post Office, Ms Edge, to reply.
2155 The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): Thank you, Mr President. In line with Principle 6 of the Post Office’s recommended financially and socially responsible demand driven service network development strategy that was supported by this Hon. Court, the board are formally consulting on potential changes to the provision of services. The decision regarding the actual changes in procurement that might be required in line with Government 2160 financial regulations will be made after the consultation has ended.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Chair, for that rather worrying 2165 Answer. First, we had the concern about the strategy being placed before us, we then had the concern about the viability of Post Office outlets, we now have another block. Is the Chair saying that there is going to be no future advert placed for a sub-postmaster on Island?
2170 The President: Ms Edge to reply.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. No, I was not stating that. I said we are currently in a consultation period and no decision has been made until that is completed on Friday. 2175 The President: Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Could a failure to advertise for a new operator be seen as a failure of the Board to carry out its statutory duty? In the case of Ballasalla there are certainly potential 2180 interested parties.
The President: I call on the Chair to reply.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. 2185 The Board is carrying out the recommendation which was Principle 6 and we are following what was agreed in this Hon. Court and the process. The Board will be meeting on 30th January and that is when a decision will be made.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker. 2190 Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. Will the Chairman take the opportunity, for clarity and to avoid any future confusion … [Inaudible] that in the event of any sub-post office becoming available in future, they will as a point of principle advertise for expressions of interest to at least assess whether there is 2195 appetite to take the location on or they actually make a decision or seem to have made a decision? Otherwise, without that it looks as though the Post Office’s decision is to close as many sub-post offices as quickly as they can and point the finger at sub-postmasters resigning and saying it is nothing to do with Isle of Man Post Office.
2200 Two Members: Hear, hear.
______841 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The President: Chairman of the Post Office to reply.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. 2205 I would like to just remind Members that in the House of Keys on 11th June, I said I would circulate about sub-post offices and when people resigned and whether we would take decisions to advertise. There is numerous data there; clearly we did not advertise all of them in the past. Going forward, we will just stick with the principles that we agreed in this Hon. Court and we will consult with all stakeholders and come back. The Board will make decisions once that 2210 consultation period is completed.
The President: Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: So can the Chair, with a simple yes or no answer, say will she commit to 2215 advertising availability of sub-postmaster positions when they become available? Yes or no?
The Chairman: No.
23. Ballasalla sub-postmaster – Why role not advertised
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
Why the role of sub-postmaster in Ballasalla has not been advertised?
The President: Question 23, Mr Moorhouse, again, I call.
2220 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chair of the Post Office why the role of the sub-postmaster in Ballasalla has not been advertised?
The President: I call on the Chairman to reply, Ms Edge. 2225 The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): I think really that has been answered in the last Question. We are out to consultation. We have not made a final decision. The Board will be meeting on 30th January.
2230 The President: Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. A rather disappointing Answer there. Are plans now in place to ensure a sub-postmaster’s position can be advertised for the Ballasalla office and a fast-track timetable put in place so the 2235 Board can actually test the market immediately following their meeting on 30th January?
The Speaker: Don’t hold your breath!
The President: Ms Edge. 2240 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President.
______842 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Obviously, until we have all of the detail in front of us and all the responses from our key stakeholders and from the community – we have had a couple of public meetings with the community – no decision will be made. The Board will be presented with all the data and facts. 2245 We have great detail of footfall through all of our sub-post office branches, and all this will be considered when the Board meets on 30th January.
The President: The Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
2250 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. It is reassuring to hear that no decision has been made until the consultation process finishes. My query to the Chairman, however, is the evidence that has been presented so far does not make me feel that is the case. In the actual letter that went out consulting, saying that they were going to start a 2255 consultation, they stated quite clearly that the Board of the Isle of Man Post Office were clear that the sub-post office in Ballasalla was not commercially viable. They said that themselves. They also decided that they planned to introduce an affordable self-service kiosk. So it is a little bit disingenuous, I think, to imply that no decision has been made. I would like to get an understanding from the Hon. Chairman of exactly how the consultation 2260 process is supposed to have worked and if they have not already made a decision, why their letter starting the consultation process stated so very clearly some of these decisions which clearly cannot have been made until everyone has actually had their say.
The President: Chairman to reply. 2265 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. There is a significant difference between a decision and a proposal and what Isle of Man Post Office has done is put a solution, a proposal forward, but no decisions have been made prior to the Board meeting. It is a Board responsibility to do this and obviously as Chairman I will 2270 announce that as soon as we are aware on 30th January.
The President: Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. 2275 I am concerned that between 30th January and the current postmaster resigning his post there is not an adequate timeframe to actually advertise a post, to look at the potential candidates and to make a decision. Is that an actual issue that the Chair recognises?
The President: Ms Edge. 2280 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. As the Hon. Members for the area of Ballasalla are very aware, they were given notification from Isle of Man Post Office on 19th September of the intended resignation and obviously at that point we do look at information. But until we have gathered all of this information and 2285 facts, depending on the outcome of that Board meeting on 30th January, the Board who have a financial responsibility and we have to behave in a financially responsible way, will make the right decision and if there was a decision to go forward to advertise we would have to ensure that we were doing that under the procurement regulations that are in place for the Isle of Man Government. 2290 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. ______843 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
I am glad to hear that the Post Office is going to be considering all the information. The 2295 question for the Chairman is: without advertising the post how can they have all the information as to whether or not someone else may be interested in taking over the role?
The President: Chairman to reply.
2300 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I would hope as it has been widely advertised and we keep putting press releases out, that anybody who is interested would be contacting Isle of Man Post Office during the consultation process.
2305 The President: Mr Hooper. I am sorry, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Mr Baker. He is a bit younger and better looking than I am, Mr President. (Laughter) (A Member: Get a room!) 2310 Just to be clear, the Chairman of the Post Office welcomes expressions of interest from anybody who might be interested, but does not actually want to go out and seek any expressions of interest in case anybody is interested because it will undermine the Board’s clear strategy to close as many sub-post offices as quickly as possible and to take it back to a minimum footprint because they do not see the sub-post office network as part of Isle of Man 2315 Post Office; they see it purely as a cost and that is a fundamental mistake?
Two Members: Hear, hear.
The President: Ms Edge. 2320 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. The retail network is loss-making; these are private businesses that are currently operating them. What I will say to this Hon. Court is that anybody who has an interest in the Ballasalla Post Office needs to be responding to that consultation. 2325 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I am just listening to Members’ comments and views on the Isle of Man sub-post offices. 2330 Would the Chairman agree with me that actually it seems some Members see the post offices as a community service and some Members see it as a business. Is it a service or is it a business? Until we clarify that point, we are not only confusing ourselves but all the residents of the Isle of Man.
2335 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Chairman to reply.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. 2340 The people that provide postal services for all Isle of Man Post Office are contracted to us from their private businesses, so it is quite clear; however, I am very aware of the social value that people put on this. But as Chair of Isle of Man Post Office under the Postal Act, I am responsible for postal services.
2345 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse. ______844 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. For the purpose of clarity, would the Chair please confirm that anyone putting forward their intention to be considered for the role of sub-postmaster in Ballasalla, their application will be 2350 considered on 30th January at that meeting and there will be no tender process; the decision will be made on 30th January from the applicants on that day?
The President: Ms Edge to reply.
2355 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I am quite astounded really that the Hon. Member has asked me to breach financial regulations. No, I certainly will not be. If there is a procurement process started, it will be started after 30th January.
2360 The President: Supplementary, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: On what basis will the Post Office start any procurement process, because they do not know if anybody is interested, or on what basis … ? So this is going to become very circular and self-fulfilling: Ballasalla Post Office is going to 2365 close; the Post Office are going to say, ‘It is because the existing sub-postmaster resigned and there was nothing we can do about it, and by the way, we cannot do a procurement process quickly enough; it is Treasury’s fault for changing the way they pay benefits and it is DoI’s fault for the potential changes to licensing’ – all things which they have indicated in the public meetings in Ballasalla. It is everybody else’s fault apart from the Board of Isle of Man Post Office. 2370 The President: Ms Edge.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I am glad the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael has got a crystal ball and seems to know 2375 what the Board are going to decide on. (Interjections) Clearly, obviously we are out for consultation. I am repeating myself here. We will consider everything in front of us at that Board meeting on 30th January.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Callister, Hon. Member. 2380 Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. I was wondering if the Post Office Chairman can just confirm if she is aware of anyone that has approached her as the Chairman or the Board or officers within the Post Office to say that they are interested or keen to take up the role of sub-post office master in Ballasalla. 2385 The President: Ms Edge.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. Officers obviously are dealing with all of the responses. There were certainly people in the 2390 audience who did express that, but from a commercial point of view and a contractual and financial regulations point of view it could prejudice any future procurement process, which I cannot do and until this decision on the 30th, no decision will be made.
The President: Hon. Members, the clock has defeated us and Oral Questions 24 to 36 will be 2395 answered in writing as soon as possible and the Written Answers on the rest of the Order Paper circulated in the normal way. The Court will now stand adjourned until 2.30 p.m. ______845 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Questions for Written Answer
TREASURY
4. Benefit payments – Number and frequency paid, by type
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
How many and at what frequency benefits are paid broken down by type?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): As the Hon. Member for Onchan has not specified what period her Question relates to, I have answered on the basis of what Social 2400 Security benefits and allowances are currently being paid, what the source of funding for those benefits is and how and at what frequency they are paid. Treasury currently pays 16 different benefits out of National Insurance contributions which are: Manx State Pension, State Retirement Pension, Manx Pension Supplement, Retirement Pension Premium, Nursing Care Contribution, Bereavement Support Payment, Widow’s Pension, 2405 Widowed Parent’s Allowance, Incapacity Benefit, Guardian’s Allowance, Maternity Allowance, Paternity Allowance, Adoption Allowance, Carer’s Allowance, Industrial Disablement Benefit, Industrial Death Benefit and Contribution-based Jobseeker’s Allowance. With a few exceptions, each of these benefits may be paid either four-weekly by direct credit into the customer’s bank or building society account or weekly at a post office using a MiCard. 2410 The exceptions are: • Incapacity Benefit – including any Manx Pension Supplement paid with it – Adoption Allowance, Maternity Allowance and Severe Disablement Allowance are paid either fortnightly by direct credit into the customer’s bank or building society account or weekly at a post office using a MiCard; 2415 • Contribution-based Jobseeker’s Allowance is paid fortnightly at a post office using a MiCard; and • Paternity Allowance is usually paid as a one-off payment into the customer’s bank or building society account or can be collected at a post office using a MiCard. Treasury also pays five different lump-sum payments out of National Insurance contributions 2420 including: Christmas Bonus, Funeral Payments, the lump-sum element of Bereavement Support Payment, payments to employees whose employers have not met their statutory obligations and rebates to small employers who have made redundancy payments to their employees. Treasury pays five different benefits out of general revenue which are: Attendance Allowance, Disability Living Allowance, Severe Disablement Allowance, Child Benefit, Income 2425 Support, Employed Person’s Allowance and Income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance. Attendance Allowance, Disability Living Allowance and Child Benefit may be paid either four-weekly by direct credit into the customer’s bank or building society account or weekly at a post office using a MiCard. Employed Person’s Allowance may be paid either fortnightly by direct credit into the 2430 customer’s bank or building society account or weekly at a post office using a MiCard. Income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance is paid fortnightly at a post office using a MiCard. Income Support may be paid either weekly at a post office using a MiCard, or fortnightly or four-weekly by direct credit into a bank account depending on the underlying reason for the customer’s claim and whether they are getting a state pension or any other benefits.
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2435 Treasury also pays five different lump-sum payments out of General Revenue which are: Winter Bonus, Maternity Payments, TV Licence Payments, Exceptional Needs Grants and Budgeting Loans.
24. Ballasalla Post Office – External assessment of alternatives to existing services
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
What assessment has been made by external advisors of the alternatives that the Post Office has suggested to the existing services at Ballasalla?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): The Isle of Man Post Office Board is formally consulting with a broad range of stakeholder groups on potential changes to the provision of 2440 services in Ballasalla. It has not sought to procure external advisors.
CHIEF MINISTER
25. Potential Ballasalla Post Office closure – CoMin assessment of environmental impact
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chief Minister:
Whether the Council of Ministers has discussed the potential environmental impact of Ballasalla residents having to travel to Castletown or Braddan in order to access post office counter services?
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): The matter of the potential change in the service provision in Ballasalla has been discussed by the Council of Ministers, but any environmental impact of residents potentially having to travel further to access post office counter services has not been raised. 2445 While I am sincerely committed to seeing the Isle of Man reduce its carbon emissions wherever possible, I do not feel that this is one of the key considerations in respect of Ballasalla sub-post office.
26. Resignation of Transformation team CEO – Effect on transformation process
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Ms Costain) to ask the Chief Minister:
What effect the resignation of the CEO of the Transformation team has had on the transformation process; and if he will make a statement?
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): As Hon. Members will no doubt be aware, the Health and Care Transformation Director resigned from his post last month due to personal circumstances. I ______847 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
2450 am grateful to the individual for his service and for supporting preparation for the Health and Care Transformation Programme to get up and running. Naturally, his departure has instigated consideration of how the Transformation Programme will be led going forward and Hon. Members can be assured that they will be notified of the outcome of this as part of their regular updates on the Transformation Programme. 2455 In the meantime, I can assure Hon. Members that the deliverables of and commitment to the Transformation Programme are unaffected by this event. Planning for the majority of projects within the Health and Care Transformation Programme was completed last year as scheduled. Some of the projects have been resourced and work has commenced on these. Work to resource all projects as soon as possible is continuing so that 2460 appropriate progress can be made across the wide scope of this programme. Finally, I can assure Members that, in accordance with Sir Jonathan Michael’s independent report, an annual report on the Transformation Programme will be brought to Tynwald.
TREASURY
27. Central Projects Unit – Proposal progress
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Treasury Minister:
What progress he has made with the proposal for a Central Projects Unit?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): There already exists a Projects Unit based within the Department of Infrastructure which provides services to Government Departments in 2465 relation to their larger scale capital projects. This team which, in part, was originally the Treasury Capital Projects unit actively liaise with Treasury and Departments over the programme and expenditure. In light of a number of recent challenges around capital delivery and associated questions, such as this one, the Treasury have committed to review options around how capital projects 2470 can be delivered in the future. A range of options will be considered, one of which will be the creation of a centralised service. Capital delivery is clearly identified as an important issue and the review will take place prior to the next budget round and be linked to consideration of the process for prioritising, considering, allocating and financing the capital programme.
28. Payment of pensions and benefits– When Post Office option removed
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Treasury Minister:
When the Post Office option was removed from the forms through which people choose where their pensions and benefits will be paid?
2475 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): People will normally choose how they want their benefit or state pension paid when they initially claim it.
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I can confirm that the option to collect benefit and pension payments at a post office continues to be included in the following commonly used claim forms: State Pension, Child Benefit, Disability Benefits, Carer’s Allowance, Incapacity Benefits, Bereavement Support 2480 Payment, Income Support and Employed Person’s Allowance. The only claim form on which the option to collect benefit payments at a post office is not currently included is that for Adoption Allowance. However, it is stated on that claim form that if a person would have difficulty with receiving their payments directly into their bank account they should contact the benefits team. This form is now being amended to include the option to 2485 receive benefit payments at a post office.
29. MiCard – Need to re-enrol after three years; future of service
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
Why re-enrolment for MiCard was necessary after only three years; how many existing users did not enrol for a new MiCard by the deadline; and if he will make a statement about the future of this service?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Re-enrolment was necessary for a number of reasons including ensuring that the personal data held by Social Security Division in relation to MiCard services remains accurate and up to date, as required by data protection legislation. This matter had been considered when the MiCard service was launched in 2015. Hence, 2490 each of the MiCards issued thereafter had an expiry date of 31st December 2019. As at the beginning of this month 5,056 MiCard users – approximately 94% of all users registered for the MiCard service immediately before then – had completed the re-enrolment process and been issued with a new MiCard. As of last Friday that had increased to 95%. As regards the 5% who have not yet re-enrolled, some no longer need a MiCard either 2495 because: another person now collects their state pension or benefit on their behalf; or they are no longer getting a state pension or other benefits; or their state pension or benefits are now being paid directly into their bank account. However, I am aware that some of this cohort collect their benefits at a post office every four 2500 weeks and if they wish to continue to do so they will need to re-enrol for a MiCard straightaway. As regards the future of this service, as I stated in another place on 29th October last year in answer to a Question from the Hon. Member for Ramsey:
… the Post Office is committed to continuing to provide the MiCard service until 31st December 2022 and the Treasury is committed to using the MiCard service until then. Between now and 31st December 2022 the Treasury and the Post Office will investigate whether there might be any viable alternatives.
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HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
30. Health Service transformation – Progress
The Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael (Mr Baker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What progress is being made on the transformation of the Health Service; and if he will make a statement?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): I welcome the opportunity to provide Hon. Members with an update on our progress to address the challenges facing our health and 2505 social care services as identified by Sir Jonathan Michael whose recommendations were unanimously supported and approved by this Court last year. The Health and Care Transformation Team has been established and is continuing to grow within the Cabinet Office along with a robust governance structure to oversee progress and ensure the vision and outcomes from the programme can be delivered in a transparent, 2510 effective and successful manner. A communication strategy is being developed which will be launched in due course to ensure our colleagues, staff, service users and patients are able to access relevant updates on our progress. The 26 Recommendations from Sir Jonathan Michael’s Report have been translated into 14 2515 key projects by the Transformation Programme Management Office. This team has been working hard on commencement of the first seven projects through the formation of project teams. These cover the creation of Manx Care and associated governance, its funding model, digital and data requirements, service by service reviews and needs assessment. This first phase of activity will deliver the governance, accountability and legislative 2520 framework to establish a new public sector body Manx Care, to focus on the delivery of health and care services and allow the Department of Health and Social Care to focus on policy and strategy. Manx Care will be up and running on 1st April 2021 and the Transformation team is progressing work to deliver this against some very challenging deadlines. This requires working 2525 with the Attorney General’s Chambers who have drafted the primary legislation needed to establish Manx Care and to map out the new ways that Manx Care will be commissioned by the Department of Health and Social Care. Hon. Members will welcome the opportunity to engage with this process during the consultation stages of this process expected over the forthcoming months. 2530 It has been critical the Transformation team engage and work with those already involved in delivering health and social care on our Island to ensure change is delivered by and within the relevant services to benefit users and patients. To ensure a formal and robust mechanism exists for clinical and professional governance, review and scrutiny within the programme a specific clinical and professional panel is currently being convened and those interested have until the 2535 end of January to express their interest to the Transformation Team to be considered for this valuable Panel. Finally I can confirm the first areas identified within the service by service review, care pathways and needs assessments have been agreed to cover: • Cardiovascular 2540 • Diabetes • Haematology oncology • Urgent integrated care
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These projects will look from the perspective of the service user at what we currently offer, what the service user’s journey needs to look like in the future and how we get there with the 2545 ability to continue to improve our services in the long term. The teams have started meeting with stakeholders in these areas, as the Transformation team will be undertaking this work with those involved in care. The teams need to be clear on the current situation, what the future service should look like based on best practice and how the Transformation can support and equip those services in those journeys. 2550 The other areas that will be included during this first phase (until summer 2020) will be eye care, autism and children with complex health needs – the latter will have a specific pathfinder agreed following a short discovery review to identify appropriate areas given the significant scope and complexity. Transformational change of this scale is not without challenge and difficult decisions. 2555 However the team have established a solid well-governed programme which now requires the time and resources to deliver the ambitious outcomes to ensure our health and social care services can be sustainable in the medium to longer term. I am confident with support from Hon. Members and the commitment already shown from our service areas together we can rise to the opportunity we have for tangible, embedded and successful change for the benefit of our 2560 community needs and health outcomes for our nation. Hon. Members, along with other key stakeholders, will continue to be updated on the progress of the programme and, in accordance with Sir Jonathan Michael’s independent report, an annual report will be submitted to Tynwald.
31. DHSC waiting lists – Letters asking if appointments still required
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How many residents on the waiting list were sent letters asking whether they still required an appointment and for what medical directorate area?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The following specialities’ waiting lists 2565 have been validated prior to January 2019 (other specialities’ lists are pending validation). The numbers of patients who have been contacted is listed next to each: • Orthopaedics – 414 • Urology – 241 • Dermatology – 175 2570 • ENT – 643 • Oral – 77 The Patient Information Centre (PIC) Manager has amended the validation letter to ease completion by the patient and a process implemented to ensure that the PIC contacts each patient by telephone if they have not returned the letter.
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32. Patient transfer service – Contingency plans
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What contingency plans are in place in respect of the patient transfer service to the UK; and if he will make a statement?
2575 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The Department mainly use the operator Flybe (Connect Airways) under contract for transporting patients and their escorts who have medical appointments in the UK. The majority of these appointments are at hospitals based in Liverpool. The Flybe contract is currently in place until 31st January 2021. The Department are able 2580 currently as per the contract, to use other airlines and/or the ferry company for transporting patients and their escorts to the UK, ‘Schedule 2, Specification’ refers:
The Department reserves the right to use any other airline and/or ferry company if necessary to transport Service Users if the Contractor does not provide a flight at a suitable time or to a suitable location or in cases of emergency or specific clinical need and the Contractor shall not be liable for the cost of such alternative transport except where it is a mandatory requirement of applicable law, or Contractor has approved the expenditure in advance.
The Department is aware of media coverage regarding the potential risk of collapse of Flybe. The company has advised that it is operating as normal and providing service and connectively for its customers while ensuring they can continue to travel as planned. The Department 2585 continue to make bookings on behalf of patients to ensure that they are able to attend medical appointments in the UK. The Department continue to monitor the situation closely in conjunction with colleagues in the Department of Infrastructure for business continuity purposes. If any provider of the Department terminated a contract as per the requirements listed 2590 within that particular contract, the Department would undertake a tender process through the Attorney’s General Chambers to secure an appropriate new provider for those services.
INFRASTRUCTURE
33. Peel Marina silt testing – Publishing results
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Crookall, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
When he will publish the results of the testing done on the silt in Peel Marina?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): A summary of the findings and a more detailed set of results will be circulated to Hon. Members this week.
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POST OFFICE
34. Commercially viable post offices – Determination by Isle of Man Post Office
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
Which post offices are not considered commercially viable by the Isle of Man Post Office; and how this determination is made?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): For the financial year ended 31st March 2019, 2595 the loss of the Isle of Man Post Office (‘IOMPO’) Retail division was approximately £1.2 million. In determining this loss, IOMPO deducts direct and indirect costs from revenues receivable. For reasons of commercial confidentiality, we cannot provide information on the commercial position of individual sub-post offices.
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
35. Clinical Recommendations Committee – Meetings in last five years; drug approval process; changes planned
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How many times in each of the last five years the Clinical Recommendations Committee has met; when it last met; whether any changes have been made to the drug approval process; and whether any changes are planned?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Since January 2015, the Clinical 2600 Recommendations Committee (CRC) has met 28 times, the most recent meeting having been on 7th November 2019. The Committee schedules monthly meetings but these are ‘stood down’ if no applications for consideration are received. In 2015, the Committee met three times, in 2016 it met 10 times, in 2017 it met 10 times, in 2018 it met twice and in 2019 it met twice. The CRC does not ‘approve drugs’ for NHS funding. The role of the CRC is to review 2605 interventions that could be considered for NHS funding (whether drugs, surgical procedures, diagnostic equipment or other services) and assess whether these are clinically and cost-effective based on published evidence. CRC does not hold a budget and assesses each intervention referred to it on a ‘single issue’ basis. This means that CRC is not able to prioritise between interventions or make the overall decision about which interventions can be prioritised 2610 for funding within a given financial year. CRC recommendations are progressed to the Commissioning Committee and final funding decisions rest with DHSC Board and Department meeting. The principles, policies and processes through which funding decisions are made were agreed by DHSC and published in 2016. They are publicly available on the DHSC website.
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36. Independent regulation of health and social care – Progress
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What process has been made with establishing independent regulation of health and social care; and if he will make a statement?
2615 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The independent Health and Social Care Review conducted by Sir Jonathan Michael identified the requirement for modern independent, external quality regulation. This Hon. Court has approved and accepted under Recommendation 3 of this report that:
Services provided directly or indirectly by Manx Care should be inspected regularly by independent, external quality regulators, with a report to the Manx Care Board and to the DHSC.
The Transformation Programme is working jointly with the DHSC to complete an initial 2620 scoping exercise with the Care Quality Commission to address the nature, frequency of inspections required and those services to be inspected. The Transformation Project and DHSC will jointly need to identify the standards for measurement, how quality inspection reports will be handled, how the issues identified will be rectified and the consequences for the provider of those services, in which issues are identified, 2625 of failure to do so. The Transformation Project will also need to explore and secure inspection of any services that the Care Quality Commission cannot support.
TREASURY
37. MiCard customers – Number using each post office
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Treasury Minister:
How many MiCard customers use each post office?
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The table below shows the number of MiCard users for each post office as at 3rd January 2020.
Anagh Coar 393 Ballasalla 165 Ballaugh 58 Castletown 298 Douglas – Cooil Road (Post Office HQ) 6 Douglas – Governor’s Hill 122 Douglas – Strand Street 673 Douglas – Willaston 280 Douglas – Windsor Road 492 Foxdale 32 Jurby 53
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Kirk Andreas 96 Kirk Michael 80 Laxey 147 Onchan – Main Road 356 Onchan – Royal Avenue 98 Peel 352 Port Erin 361 Port St Mary 144 Ramsey 673 Sulby 39 Union Mills 141 Total 5,056
POLICY AND REFORM
38. Citizenship applications through immigration channels – Details for last five years
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
How many people applied through immigration channels for citizenship in each of the last five years, where they previously lived; and what their place of birth was?
2630 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): The Nationality Office has received 531 Nationality and Registration applications for British citizenship under the British Nationality Act 1981 during the last five years. The table below provides a breakdown by year and month of the number of applications received.
Month 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 April 2 1 16 4 13 May 5 2 19 13 30 June 1 0 7 4 7 July 13 0 6 7 5 August 4 0 2 4 10 September 8 0 7 4 12 October 19 0 3 10 9 November 6 38 5 10 3 December 5 30 6 3 5 January 4 8 10 7 17 February 5 13 4 15 15 March 13 16 14 9 23 Total 85 108 99 90 149
2635 The applicant nationality for the reporting period 2018-19 is shown in Appendix 1.
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The Hon. Member may be interested in further information set out in the historical Passport, Immigration & Nationality Annual Report and in Isle of Man in Numbers.
Appendix 1
Nationality Total Nationality Total Nationality Total
American 1 Hungarian 1 Portuguese 2 Australian 6 Indian 1 Romanian 2 Bulgarian 4 Iranian 1 Russian 1 Canadian 1 Israeli 4 Slovakian 2 Chinese 1 Italian 1 South African 27 Costa Rican 1 Nigerian 1 Spanish 1 Filipino 5 Pakistani 5 Thai 5 Finnish 1 Polish 7 Venezuelan 1 Uzbekistani 1
39. Local authority rates – Details of increases for last 10 years
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
If he will provide for each local authority area and for each of the last 10 years (a) rate increases; (b) weekly rate increases to public sector housing tenants; and (c) categories of reduced rateable value?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): The Answer is separated into the elements as per the original Question lettering: 2640 (a) Table 39A at the end of the response identifies the increases by Local Authority area for each of the last ten years. (b) The Treasury does not hold the data in a format that allows precise property details to be provided. Whilst percentage increases may be determined from the details provided in the table below the weekly increase in monetary terms for the actual rates payable for public sector 2645 housing would depend upon two factors; (i) The rating assessment of the property based on the size and location of the property in accordance with the 1953 Rating and Valuation Act. The assessment remains fixed except where a hereditament suffers a temporary impediment at which time a new assessment may be made for the duration of such an impediment. This would take 2650 effect from the date of notification to the Valuation Office or the local authority. (ii) The rate poundage levied by the local authority. Specific details of weekly increases may be available from the relevant housing authority. (c) Under the Rating and Valuation Act 1953 (as amended) there are allowances for different businesses as follows:
Class 1 Land without or exclusive of buildings No deduction Class 2 Dwelling houses and other buildings, or other buildings only; 20% Class 3 Cotton, woollen, silk, flax, and fulling mills, corn mills, 1/3rd or 331/3rd % machine and engineering works, breweries, tanneries, bleaching and dyeing works, and other mills, manufactories, and works not specifically included in this schedule. 2655 ______856 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Class 4 Glass and earthenware works, chemical works, blast and 50% smelting furnaces and works for the manufacture of iron. Class 5 Mines and quarries to be determined under the Provisions of the Rating Act 1881 Class 6 Rateable hereditaments not included in any To be determined in each case of the foregoing classes according to the circumstances and the general principles of law as amended by this Act.
Table 39 A Rates increases by local authority area for each of the last 10 years
YEAR CHURCHYARD COMMR WATER SEWERAGE REFUSE TOTAL FIXED REFUSE (pence) (pence) (pence) (pence) (pence) (pence) (£) ANDREAS 2010/11 9.00 78.00 265.43 32.00 384.43 30.00 2011/12 9.00 78.00 276.04 32.00 395.04 30.00 2012/13 11.00 78.00 287.08 32.00 408.08 30.00 2013/14 11.00 90.00 298.56 37.00 436.56 35.00 2014/15 11.00 92.00 307.22 47.00 457.22 35.00 2015/16 14.00 102.00 313.97 61.29 47.00 538.26 35.00 2016/17 14.00 102.00 321.19 92.00 47.00 576.19 35.00 2017/18 15.00 102.00 341.80 98.00 50.00 606.80 36.00 2018/19 15.00 102.00 341.80 98.00 55.00 611.80 40.00 2019/20 15.00 104.00 235.50 215.00 62.00 631.50 45.00
ARBORY 2010/11 7.00 88.00 265.43 360.43 2011/12 7.00 88.00 276.04 371.04 2012/13 7.00 88.00 287.08 382.08 2013/14 7.00 98.00 298.56 403.56 2014/15 7.00 105.00 307.22 419.22 2015/16 8.50 113.00 313.97 61.29 496.76 2016/17 10.00 115.00 321.19 92.00 538.19 2017/18 10.00 117.00 341.80 98.00 566.80 2018/19 10.00 120.00 341.80 98.00 569.80 2019/20 10.00 125.00 235.50 215.00 585.50
BALLAUGH 2010/11 10.00 78.00 265.43 32.00 385.43 30.00 2011/12 10.00 78.00 276.04 32.00 396.04 30.00 2012/13 12.00 80.00 287.08 32.00 411.08 30.00 2013/14 11.00 95.00 298.56 37.00 441.56 35.00 2014/15 12.00 103.00 307.22 47.00 469.22 35.00 2015/16 12.00 113.00 313.97 61.29 47.00 547.26 35.00 2016/17 12.00 115.00 321.19 92.00 47.00 587.19 35.00 2017/18 14.00 115.00 341.80 98.00 50.00 618.80 36.00 2018/19 14.00 115.00 341.80 98.00 55.00 623.80 40.00 2019/20 16.00 115.00 235.50 215.00 62.00 643.50 45.00
BRADDAN 2010/11 5.50 227.00 265.43 497.93 2011/12 5.50 227.00 276.04 508.54 2012/13 5.50 227.00 287.08 519.58 2013/14 5.50 225.00 298.56 529.06 2014/15 6.00 219.00 307.22 532.22
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2015/16 6.00 215.00 313.97 61.29 596.26 2016/17 6.00 205.00 321.19 92.00 624.19 2017/18 6.00 200.00 341.80 98.00 645.80 2018/19 6.00 200.00 341.80 98.00 645.80 2019/20 6.00 201.00 235.50 215.00 657.50
BRIDE 2010/11 6.00 28.00 265.43 32.00 331.43 30.00 2011/12 6.00 28.00 276.04 32.00 342.04 30.00 2012/13 6.00 30.00 287.08 32.00 355.08 30.00 2013/14 5.50 30.00 298.56 37.00 371.06 35.00 2014/15 6.00 35.00 307.22 47.00 395.22 35.00 2015/16 6.00 38.00 313.97 61.29 47.00 466.26 35.00 2016/17 6.00 43.00 321.19 92.00 47.00 509.19 35.00 2017/18 6.00 43.00 341.80 98.00 50.00 538.80 36.00 2018/19 6.00 43.00 341.80 98.00 55.00 543.80 40.00 2019/20 6.00 43.00 235.50 215.00 62.00 561.50 45.00
GERMAN 2010/11 8.00 67.00 265.43 39.00 379.43 70.00 2011/12 8.00 67.00 276.04 39.00 390.04 70.00 2012/13 9.00 69.00 287.08 39.00 404.08 75.00 2013/14 9.00 70.00 298.56 44.00 421.56 85.00 2014/15 9.50 70.00 307.22 46.00 432.72 95.00 2015/16 9.50 81.00 313.97 61.29 50.00 515.76 100.00 2016/17 10.50 82.00 321.19 92.00 51.00 556.69 100.00 2017/18 10.50 92.00 341.80 98.00 51.00 593.30 150.00 2018/19 10.50 92.00 341.80 98.00 60.00 602.30 160.00 2019/20 10.50 93.00 235.50 215.00 61.00 615.00 160.00
JURBY 2010/11 9.00 79.00 265.43 32.00 385.43 30.00 2011/12 9.00 79.00 276.04 32.00 396.04 30.00 2012/13 9.00 79.00 287.08 32.00 407.08 30.00 2013/14 12.00 91.00 298.56 37.00 438.56 35.00 2014/15 12.00 95.00 307.22 47.00 461.22 35.00 2015/16 12.00 107.00 313.97 61.29 47.00 541.26 35.00 2016/17 16.00 107.00 321.19 92.00 47.00 583.19 35.00 2017/18 16.00 115.00 341.80 98.00 50.00 620.80 36.00 2018/19 16.00 115.00 341.80 98.00 55.00 625.80 40.00 2019/20 16.00 115.00 235.50 215.00 62.00 643.50 45.00
LEZAYRE 2010/11 9.00 67.00 265.43 32.00 373.43 30.00 2011/12 9.00 67.00 276.04 32.00 384.04 30.00 2012/13 9.00 67.00 287.08 32.00 395.08 30.00 2013/14 9.00 70.50 298.56 37.00 415.06 35.00 2014/15 7.00 72.00 307.22 47.00 433.22 35.00 2015/16 7.00 80.00 313.97 61.29 47.00 509.26 35.00 2016/17 8.00 84.00 321.19 92.00 47.00 552.19 35.00 2017/18 8.00 84.00 341.80 98.00 50.00 581.80 36.00 2018/19 8.00 85.00 341.80 98.00 55.00 587.80 40.00 2019/20 8.00 85.00 235.50 215.00 62.00 605.50 45.00
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LONAN 2010/11 10.00 60.00 265.43 335.43 98.00 2011/12 10.00 59.00 276.04 345.04 99.00 2012/13 10.00 52.00 287.08 349.08 104.00 2013/14 10.00 60.00 298.56 368.56 123.00 2014/15 10.00 62.00 307.22 379.22 141.00 2015/16 13.00 89.00 313.97 61.29 477.26 147.00 2016/17 13.00 89.00 321.19 92.00 515.19 147.00 2017/18 13.00 96.00 341.80 98.00 548.80 146.00 2018/19 13.00 103.00 341.80 98.00 555.80 144.00 2019/20 13.00 112.00 235.50 215.00 575.50 151.00
MALEW 2010/11 6.00 152.00 265.43 423.43 2011/12 6.00 152.00 276.04 434.04 2012/13 6.00 152.00 287.08 445.08 2013/14 6.00 155.00 298.56 459.56 2014/15 6.00 165.00 307.22 478.22 2015/16 6.00 175.00 313.97 61.29 556.26 2016/17 6.00 175.00 321.19 92.00 594.19 2017/18 6.00 175.00 341.80 98.00 620.80 2018/19 6.00 175.00 341.80 98.00 620.80 2019/20 6.00 185.00 235.50 215.00 641.50
MAROWN 2010/11 7.50 117.00 265.43 389.93 2011/12 7.50 118.00 276.04 401.54 2012/13 7.50 122.00 287.08 416.58 2013/14 7.50 134.00 298.56 440.06 2014/15 9.00 146.00 307.22 462.22 2015/16 9.00 155.00 313.97 61.29 539.26 2016/17 11.00 150.00 321.19 92.00 574.19 2017/18 13.00 148.00 341.80 98.00 600.80 2018/19 13.00 148.00 341.80 98.00 600.80 2019/20 13.00 150.00 235.50 215.00 613.50
MAUGHOLD 2010/11 7.50 108.00 265.43 380.93 27.50 2011/12 7.50 108.00 276.04 391.54 29.15 2012/13 7.50 108.00 287.08 402.58 36.03 2013/14 9.00 96.00 298.56 403.56 83.18 2014/15 9.00 96.00 307.22 412.22 95.92 2015/16 9.50 96.00 313.97 61.29 480.76 111.09 2016/17 9.50 96.00 321.19 92.00 518.69 111.09 2017/18 10.00 101.00 341.80 98.00 550.80 117.00 2018/19 10.00 107.00 341.80 98.00 556.80 123.00 2019/20 11.00 126.00 235.50 215.00 587.50 136.00
PATRICK 2010/11 10.00 127.00 265.43 402.43 2011/12 9.50 114.00 276.04 399.54 2012/13 9.50 114.00 287.08 410.58 2013/14 10.00 116.00 298.56 424.56 2014/15 10.00 130.00 307.22 447.22 2015/16 10.00 147.00 313.97 61.29 532.26 2016/17 9.00 140.00 321.19 92.00 562.19 2017/18 9.00 160.00 341.80 98.00 608.80
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2018/19 9.00 158.00 341.80 98.00 606.80 2019/20 9.00 165.00 235.50 215.00 624.50
RUSHEN 2010/11 8.50 67.00 265.43 340.93 10.00 2011/12 8.50 67.00 276.04 351.54 10.00 2012/13 8.50 67.00 287.08 362.58 15.00 2013/14 8.50 70.00 298.56 377.06 30.00 2014/15 8.50 70.00 307.22 385.72 59.00 2015/16 10.50 79.00 313.97 61.29 464.76 59.00 2016/17 12.00 85.00 321.19 92.00 510.19 63.00 2017/18 14.00 95.00 341.80 98.00 548.80 65.00 2018/19 14.00 98.00 341.80 98.00 551.80 67.00 2019/20 14.00 100.00 235.50 215.00 564.50 69.00
SANTON 2010/11 6.00 85.00 265.43 356.43 2011/12 6.00 85.00 276.04 367.04 2012/13 8.00 75.00 287.08 370.08 2013/14 8.00 95.00 298.56 401.56 2014/15 8.00 105.00 307.22 420.22 2015/16 8.00 105.00 313.97 61.29 488.26 2016/17 8.00 115.00 321.19 92.00 536.19 2017/18 8.00 115.00 341.80 98.00 562.80 2018/19 8.00 120.00 341.80 98.00 567.80 2019/20 8.00 125.00 235.50 215.00 583.50
CASTLETOWN 2010/11 6.00 320.00 265.43 591.43 2011/12 6.00 320.00 276.04 602.04 2012/13 6.00 320.00 287.08 613.08 2013/14 6.00 320.00 298.56 624.56 2014/15 6.00 320.00 307.22 633.22 2015/16 6.00 320.00 313.97 61.29 701.26 2016/17 6.00 320.00 321.19 92.00 739.19 2017/18 6.00 320.00 341.80 98.00 765.80 2018/19 6.00 341.00 341.80 98.00 786.80 2019/20 6.00 291.00 235.50 215.00 747.50 135.00
DOUGLAS 2010/11 385.00 265.43 650.43 2011/12 387.00 276.04 663.04 2012/13 387.00 287.08 674.08 2013/14 395.00 298.56 693.56 2014/15 397.00 307.22 704.22 2015/16 402.00 313.97 61.29 777.26 2016/17 402.00 321.19 92.00 815.19 2017/18 408.00 341.80 98.00 847.80 2018/19 419.00 341.80 98.00 858.80 2019/20 433.00 235.50 215.00 883.50
PEEL 2010/11 8.00 235.00 265.43 508.43 126.50 2011/12 8.00 237.00 276.04 521.04 126.50 2012/13 9.00 242.00 287.08 538.08 128.50 2013/14 9.00 242.00 298.56 549.56 152.00 2014/15 9.50 246.00 307.22 562.72 169.00
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2015/16 9.50 252.00 313.97 61.29 636.76 170.00 2016/17 10.50 257.00 321.19 92.00 680.69 170.00 2017/18 10.50 257.00 341.80 98.00 707.30 170.00 2018/19 10.50 257.00 341.80 98.00 707.30 174.00 2019/20 10.50 257.00 235.50 215.00 718.00 186.00
RAMSEY 2010/11 9.00 332.00 265.43 606.43 (LEZAYRE 2011/12 9.00 332.00 276.04 617.04 CHYD) 2012/13 9.00 342.00 287.08 638.08 2013/14 9.00 348.00 298.56 655.56 2014/15 7.00 348.00 307.22 662.22 2015/16 7.00 348.00 313.97 61.29 730.26 2016/17 8.00 348.00 321.19 92.00 769.19 2017/18 8.00 348.00 341.80 98.00 795.80 2018/19 8.00 364.00 341.80 98.00 811.80 2019/20 8.00 399.00 235.50 215.00 857.50
RAMSEY 2010/11 7.50 332.00 265.43 604.93 (MAUGHOLD 2011/12 7.50 332.00 276.04 615.54 CHYD) 2012/13 7.50 342.00 287.08 636.58 2013/14 9.00 348.00 298.56 655.56 2014/15 9.00 348.00 307.22 664.22 2015/16 9.50 348.00 313.97 61.29 732.76 2016/17 9.50 348.00 321.19 92.00 770.69 2017/18 10.00 348.00 341.80 98.00 797.80 2018/19 10.00 364.00 341.80 98.00 813.80 2019/20 11.00 399.00 235.50 215.00 860.50
LAXEY 2010/11 10.00 165.00 265.43 440.43 120.00 2011/12 10.00 165.00 276.04 451.04 120.00 2012/13 10.00 165.00 287.08 462.08 123.00 2013/14 10.00 165.00 298.56 473.56 139.00 2014/15 10.00 165.00 307.22 482.22 163.00 2015/16 13.00 174.00 313.97 61.29 562.26 163.00 2016/17 13.00 174.00 321.19 92.00 600.19 163.00 2017/18 13.00 164.00 341.80 98.00 616.80 158.00 2018/19 13.00 154.00 341.80 98.00 606.80 153.00 2019/20 13.00 147.00 235.50 215.00 610.50 157.00
MICHAEL 2010/11 7.50 99.00 265.43 32.00 403.93 30.00 2011/12 7.50 99.00 276.04 32.00 414.54 30.00 2012/13 7.50 99.00 287.08 32.00 425.58 30.00 2013/14 7.50 129.00 298.56 37.00 472.06 35.00 2014/15 7.50 131.00 307.22 47.00 492.72 35.00 2015/16 7.50 136.00 313.97 61.29 47.00 565.76 35.00 2016/17 7.50 136.00 321.19 92.00 47.00 603.69 35.00 2017/18 7.50 136.00 341.80 98.00 50.00 633.30 36.00 2018/19 8.50 138.00 341.80 98.00 55.00 641.30 40.00 2019/20 9.50 138.00 235.50 215.00 62.00 660.00 45.00
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ONCHAN 2010/11 7.50 266.00 265.43 538.93 2011/12 8.00 266.00 276.04 550.04 2012/13 8.00 271.00 287.08 566.08 2013/14 9.00 275.00 298.56 582.56 2014/15 10.00 290.00 307.22 607.22 2015/16 11.00 307.00 313.97 61.29 693.26 2016/17 11.00 310.00 321.19 92.00 734.19 2017/18 11.00 312.00 341.80 98.00 762.80 2018/19 13.00 312.00 341.80 98.00 764.80 2019/20 13.00 318.00 235.50 215.00 781.50
PORT ERIN 2010/11 8.50 271.00 265.43 544.93 2011/12 8.50 273.00 276.04 557.54 2012/13 8.50 278.00 287.08 573.58 2013/14 8.50 281.00 298.56 588.06 2014/15 8.50 288.00 307.22 603.72 2015/16 10.50 288.00 313.97 61.29 673.76 2016/17 12.00 288.00 321.19 92.00 713.19 2017/18 14.00 288.00 341.80 98.00 741.80 2018/19 14.00 302.00 341.80 98.00 755.80 2019/20 14.00 307.00 235.50 215.00 771.50
PORT ST 2010/11 8.50 297.00 265.43 570.93 MARY 2011/12 8.50 300.00 276.04 584.54 2012/13 8.50 306.00 287.08 601.58 2013/14 8.50 306.00 298.56 613.06 2014/15 8.50 306.00 307.22 621.72 2015/16 10.50 306.00 313.97 61.29 691.76 2016/17 12.00 306.00 321.19 92.00 731.19 2017/18 14.00 315.00 341.80 98.00 768.80 2018/19 14.00 331.00 341.80 98.00 784.80 2019/20 14.00 338.00 235.50 215.00 802.50
ENTERPRISE
40. TT VIP tickets – Details of issue by DfE since September 2016
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:
If he will provide a breakdown of VIP tickets issued by his Department since September 2016 showing for each event (a) type of ticket, (b) organisation or individuals to whom the ticket or tickets were issued, (c) how many tickets were issued and (d) who approved the issuing of the tickets?
The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): In providing a response to this Question, the Department has been advised that in order to comply with GDPR the names of specific individuals should not be provided. The Hon. Member has also clarified that she is requesting information on VIP tickets provided free of charge, i.e. complimentary tickets only.
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2660 It should be noted that the only events for which the Department issues VIP tickets are the TT and the Festival of Motorcycling. Since the 2017 events, the Department has had a formal policy in place for any hospitality ticket that was not purchased or a pass that was not supplied as part of a purchased package. The general policy outlines implicitly that no complimentary VIP tickets, grandstand tickets or 2665 access passes are to be provided, unless the request falls into one of the areas identified within that policy. The numbers provided below are across both events: Political, economic benefit and other Departments: 2017 – a total of 50 tickets were provided to seven politicians, their guests, His Excellency the 2670 Governor, his guests and the Mayor of Douglas; 2018 – a total of 51 tickets were provided to seven politicians, their guests, His Excellency the Governor, his guests and the Mayor of Douglas; 2019 – a total of 44 tickets were provided to eight politicians, their guests, His Excellency the Governor, his guests and the Mayor of Douglas; in addition a further 21 tickets were provided 2675 to cover the visit of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland at the TT. Good causes racing related, not racing related and discretionary visitor tickets; 2017 – a total of 15 tickets were provided to individuals, their carers, charity organisations and other visiting quests; 2018 – a total of 20 tickets were provided to were provided to individuals, their carers, 2680 charity organisations and other visiting quests; 2019 – a total of 28 tickets were provided to were provided to individuals, their carers, charity organisations and other visiting quests.
41. MNH kiosk at Sea Terminal – Formal review outcome; costs and profits; future plans
The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:
Pursuant to his Answer of 23rd October 2018, what the outcome of the formal review into the Manx National Heritage kiosk at the Sea Terminal was and if he will publish it in full; what the costs and profits associated with its running over the two year operation period to date were; and what his future plans for it are?
The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): The Department has been advised that Manx National Heritage (MNH) keeps its retail and trading operations under review through monthly 2685 monitoring of statistics and regular reports to the Board. There is no single review document available to be published. Costs and income are aggregated within the organisation’s overall accounts published for 2018-19. The kiosk was placed at the Sea Terminal in order to trial an enhanced presence at the Sea Terminal. This coincided with changes in opening times and the provision of retail at the 2690 Welcome Centre. The review of the first year trial of operation at the Sea Terminal highlighted that: • retail sales were stronger than expected; • different product lines were needed at different times and for different customers; • admission and ticket sales were below expectations; 2695 • cruise ships were not engaged as expected as passengers did not generally enter or leave via the Sea Terminal; • managing operation of the kiosk on a temporary basis had taken up higher than expected resources, in particular to ensure staff availability; and ______863 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
• the indirect benefits of promoting MNH and providing a positive visitor experience were 2700 significant but at a net cost of circa £15,000 (including the full cost of staff, VAT, cost of sales and commission to suppliers) this was not sustainable. During 2019 MNH reduced the opening hours of the kiosk to cover peak periods only. Retail sales and customer engagement for TT and Festival of Motorcycling were identified as key areas for delivery and the kiosk closed after the Festival of Motorcycling. 2705 The current licence with the Department of Infrastructure for the kiosk ends on 31st March 2020 and is unlikely to be renewed.
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
42. Transfer of DESC staff to PSC – Publishing communications
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
If he will publish all communications with headteachers, the Public Services Commission (PSC) and employees with respect to the transfer of staff to the PSC including any business case, financial impact assessment, and equality impact assessment, and minutes of all meetings where the transfer of employees to PSC has been discussed both in the Department and within schools?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): The information requested is available but it will take time to collate. I will publish the information by 31st January 2020.
43. Teachers employed on 1st January 2020 – By school type, contract and take-home pay
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
How many teachers were employed on 1st January 2020 at (a) his Department’s primary schools, (b) his Department’s secondary schools, and (c) University College Isle of Man; of these, how many were on (i) full-time contracts and (ii) part-time contracts; and for each group how many teachers’ annual take-home pay was in the band (A) £20,000 and under, (B) £20,001 to £25,000, (C) £25,001 to £30,000, (D) £30,001 to £35,000, (E) £35,001 to £40,000, (F) £40,001 to £45,000, (G) £45,001 to £50,000, (H) £50,001 to £55,000, (I) £55,001 to £60,000, (J) £60,001 to £65,000, (K) £65,001 to £70,000, (L) £70,001 to £75,000 and (M) £75,001 and over?
2710 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Whilst it is unusual to annualise take-home pay rather than provide actual salary levels, the figures shown below represent teachers’ pay, after the deduction of Income Tax, National Insurance and Superannuation. Clearly individual circumstances vary but a teacher with annual take-home pay of £25,000 is likely to have a salary of approximately £35,000 and a teacher ‘take-home’ pay of £35,000 could 2715 represent a salary of £51,000.
(a) There are 375 teachers employed in the Island’s primary schools.
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(b) There are 420 teachers employed in the Island’s secondary schools. (c) There are 123 lecturers employed at University College Isle of Man.
(i) There are 614 teachers on full-time contracts. 2720 (ii) There are 181 teachers/lecturers on part-time contracts.
(A) 43 full-time and 116 part-time teachers on £20,000 or under. (B) 65 full-time and 40 part-time teachers on £20,001 to £25,000. (C) 163 full-time and 24 part-time teachers on £25,001 to £30,000. (D) 202 full-time and one part-time teachers on £30,001 to £35,000. 2725 (E) 66 full-time teachers on £35,001 to £40,000. (F) 31 full-time teachers on £40,001 to £45,000. (G) 15 full-time teachers on £45,001 to £50,000. (H) 14 full-time teachers on £50,001 to £55,000. (I) 2 full-time teachers on £55,001 to £60,000. 2730 (J) 7 full-time teachers on £60,001 to £65,000. (K) 3 full-time teachers on £65,001 to £70,000. (L) 1 full-time teacher on £70,001 to £75,000. (M) 2 full-time teachers on £75,001 and over.
The above information is extrapolated from the December 2019 payroll to create an annual 2735 amount of take-home pay.
44. Housing support for new teachers – Access for Manx residents, teachers appointed and cost for all teachers
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Which new teachers classified as Manx residents can access the support which would make it easier for them to buy a home in the Island; how many such teachers have been appointed to schools in the Island since this policy was implemented; and what the total cost would be of allowing all of these teachers to access the support?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Housing assistance is offered as an incentive to secondary teachers to relocate as follows: Housing assistance provides a maximum contribution towards UK property mortgage payments of £500 per month for two years. It is conditional upon the staff member 2740 continuing to pay a mortgage in the UK whilst also funding housing on the Island. It is dependent on the staff member actively trying to sell their property and is not paid if the UK property is being let. Clearly this would not be applicable to Manx resident teachers who are not relocating. Alternatively, a contribution of £200 per month for a maximum of two years can be 2745 made towards rental costs. This is only payable to non-Manx resident teachers. In addition to this, if you are teaching a shortage subject in a secondary school, you may be eligible for additional rental cost support up to an additional amount of £500 for a period of eight months. The rental cost plus the shortage subject allowance cannot exceed the actual rent paid by the teacher, for example if the monthly rental cost is 2750 £450 the maximum support available is £450 (£200 basic rental supports plus £250 shortage subject allowance).
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In addition to this a maximum 70% contribution is available to assist with relocation expenses. Costs could include furniture removal and delivery and potentially storage of the same. Again this would not be applicable to Manx resident teachers who are not 2755 relocating. These allowances are not specifically related at purchasing a house on the Island, clearly any improvement in a teacher’s pay would assist in purchasing a house, if they wished. The allowances above are not available to Manx residents, however, it should be noted that there is an incentive in place for Manx teachers who have recently graduated and qualified. 2760 Manx students’ Isle of Man student loan is written off. Typically a student will undertake a three-year undergraduate degree and then complete a one-year PGCE. The total value of the loan written off would be £10,000. This is slightly higher than the maximum amount of rental assistance available. It should also be noted that many UK students will leave university with debt in excess of 2765 £50,000. The policy has been in place for over 20 years, with the exception of the shortage subject which was introduced around seven years ago. Unfortunately we do not hold the level of residency information to enable us to determine those teachers who under the current schemes were ineligible for the support and therefore did not apply.
45. Housing support for teachers – Teachers recruited since revising policy
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
How many new teachers have been recruited since the revised policy on housing support for teachers was implemented; and, of those teachers, how many (a) qualify and (b) do not qualify for the support because of the residency requirement?
2770 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen): Housing assistance is offered as an incentive to secondary teachers to relocate to the Isle of Man. Where the recruited teacher has a UK mortgaged property, which is for sale and for which no rental income is received, and is paying either rent or mortgage on an Isle of Man property, assistance to a maximum of £500 per month for a maximum of two years may be granted. 2775 The housing assistance policy was revised in 2013. Since this time, 151 new teachers have been recruited to the Island’s secondary schools. Of these, 121 have received some level of housing assistance. We do not have the data to determine the reason why 30 new teachers did not apply for or receive housing assistance, undoubtedly a number of them would not have qualified as a result of them being Isle of Man residents.
46. Teacher pay scales – Compared with neighbouring jurisdictions
The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What the current pay scales are for teachers on the Isle of Man, compared against those of neighbouring jurisdictions? ______866 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
2780 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Mr Cregeen):
England London Outer Inner Point Isle of Man Scotland and Wales Fringe London London 1 £24,373 £24,373 £25,543 £28,355 £30,480 £32,034 2 £26,298 £26,298 £27,468 £30,113 £32,070 £32,034 3 £28,412 £28,412 £29,581 £31,976 £33,741 £33,849 4 £30,599 £30,599 £31,775 £33,956 £35,499 £35,817
5 Scale Main £33,009 £33,009 £34,179 £36,836 £38,230 £38,088
6 £35,971 £35,971 £37,152 £40,035 £41,483 Scale Grade Main £40,206
1 £37,654 £37,654 £38,797 £41,419 £45,713 £41,451 2 £39,050 £39,050 £40,189 £42,951 £47,960 £42,849
3 £40,490 £40,490 £41,635 £44,541 £49,571 £43,836
4 Spine £45,645 5 £47,472
Upper Pay Spine Pay Upper
6 Teacher Chartered £49,293
1 £43,836
2 £45,645
3 £47,472
4 £49,293
5 £51,120
6 £52,935
7 £54,756
Principal Teacher Spine Teacher Principal 8 £56,571 1 £41,065 £41,065 £42,195 £44,323 £48,824 £49,716 2 £42,093 £42,093 £43,226 £45,353 £49,857 £51,249 3 £43,144 £43,144 £44,277 £46,400 £50,912 £52,935 4 £44,218 £44,218 £45,356 £47,479 £51,984 £54,756 5 £45,319 £45,319 £46,459 £48,582 £53,091 £56,571 6 £46,457 £46,457 £47,592 £49,714 £54,223 £58,107 7 £47,707 £47,707 £48,846 £50,969 £55,477 £59,796 8 £48,808 £48,808 £49,940 £52,067 £56,576 £61,476
England London Outer Inner Point Isle of Man Scotland and Wales Fringe London London 9 £50,026 £50,026 £51,161 £53,284 £57,790 £63,150 10 £51,311 £51,311 £52,445 £54,571 £59,076 £64,836
Leadership 11 £52,643 £52,643 £53,775 £55,898 £60,404 £67,641 12 £53,856 £53,856 £54,993 £57,117 £61,624 £70,443 13 £55,202 £55,202 £56,340 £58,465 £62,968 £73,242 14 £56,579 £56,579 £57,714 £59,833 £64,344 £76,041
15 £57,986 £57,986 £59,118 £61,241 £65,747 teachers Head and teachers Head Deputy £80,238 16 £59,528 £59,528 £60,664 £62,787 £67,295 £84,438 17 £60,895 £60,895 £62,039 £64,156 £68,663 £87,777 18 £62,426 £62,426 £63,562 £65,689 £70,194 £91,851 19 £63,975 £63,975 £65,109 £67,237 £71,742 £95,931
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20 £65,561 £65,561 £66,701 £68,820 £73,328 21 £67,183 £67,183 £68,325 £70,445 £74,949 22 £68,851 £68,851 £69,989 £72,107 £76,618 23 £70,556 £70,556 £71,689 £73,812 £78,318 24 £72,306 £72,306 £73,446 £75,564 £80,074 25 £74,103 £74,103 £75,237 £77,361 £81,867 26 £75,936 £75,936 £77,075 £79,194 £83,699 27 £77,818 £77,818 £78,952 £81,075 £85,579 28 £79,748 £79,748 £80,880 £83,007 £87,512 29 £81,723 £81,723 £82,860 £84,979 £89,491 30 £83,757 £83,757 £84,886 £87,013 £91,522 31 £85,826 £85,826 £86,965 £89,089 £93,594 32 £87,960 £87,960 £89,098 £91,215 £95,722 33 £90,145 £90,145 £91,284 £93,406 £97,911 34 £92,373 £92,373 £93,511 £95,633 £100,140 35 £94,669 £94,669 £95,808 £97,927 £102,436 36 £97,013 £97,013 £98,148 £100,268 £104,776 37 £99,424 £99,424 £100,561 £102,685 £107,194 38 £101,885 £101,885 £103,021 £105,145 £109,648 39 £104,368 £104,368 £105,500 £107,624 £112,131 40 £106,972 £106,972 £108,112 £110,234 £114,742 41 £109,644 £109,644 £110,781 £112,905 £117,416 42 £112,392 £112,392 £113,530 £115,647 £120,156 43 £114,060 £114,060 £115,188 £117,287 £121,749
The structure of pay scales in Scotland differ from the Isle of Man and England and Wales. We have attempted to make the comparison but the job requirements may differ from the structures in place in England, Wales and the Isle of Man. Northern Ireland pay scales have not increased since 2016 as a result of the failure of the 2785 power sharing arrangements. The 2016 figures were marginally lower than those in place in England, Wales and the Isle of Man.
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
47. DHSC-funded operations in Oswestry – Number of patients in last five years
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
For how many patients the Department has funded operations in Oswestry in the last five years?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): A breakdown of Department activity and cost associated with activity incurred with Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust (Oswestry) for the last five years is provided below:
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Year Activity Total cost 2015-16 64 £48,986 2016-17 76 £51,579 2017-18 72 £20,615 2018-19 85 £43,707 2019-20 73 £87,567 Total 370 £252,454
2790 These figures include all of the diagnostics, inpatient and outpatient activity and may include activity which is covered by the Reciprocal Healthcare Agreement and therefore not chargeable to the Department.
48. Registered Nurses – Current and predicted vacancies; recruitment
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How many vacancies for Registered Nurses in (a) Noble’s, (b) Community, (c) Mental Health and (d) Ramsey District Cottage Hospital (A) there are and (B) will be when the Private Patients’ Unit opens; what the predicted need is for the next 5-10 years; whether he is meeting this recruitment target; how many have been recruited from (i) on-Island and (ii) off-Island; and if he will make a statement?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): (A) The current number of vacancies for positions requiring registration with the Nursing and Midwifery Council, in each area are as 2795 follows: (a) Hospital Services 58.23 whole-time equivalent (wte) vacancies (b) Community 3.80 wte vacancies (c) Mental health 7.00 wte vacancies plus 4 vacancies being held for student nurses on qualification 2800 (d) Ramsey District Cottage Hospital 2 wte vacancies
(B) The Private Patients’ Unit historically had an establishment of 12.74 registered nurses. The 2017 LaingBuisson Mansfield report indicated that a further 2.00 wte nurses would be required. However, the ultimate number required is dependent upon the service delivery model adopted for private patients, and other service areas, and the Department is currently in the 2805 process of determining what these will be. With regard to predicted need, as noted above, the Department is currently in the process of determining its service delivery models which will in turn determine the staffing complement required. It should be noted that increased variability in retirement ages and staff wishing to have some form of flexible working, also presents challenges to determining future recruitment 2810 needs. The Department does not have a specific recruitment target for nurses. In the period 1st January 2018 to 31st December 2019 nurses recruited from (i) on Island numbered 30 and (ii) off Island numbered 32. It should be noted that this information is based on address information held in the recruitment database and potentially 2815 the applicants were not permanently resident at the address given, when they applied.
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49. Registered Nurses – Number leaving service in last two years and length of service
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How many Registered Nurses have left the service in each of the last two years and what their length of service was in each case?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Length of service is detailed in the table below for posts identified requiring registration with the Nursing and Midwifery Council which became vacant in 2018 and 2019 due to the post-holder leaving DHSC employment.
2018 2019 16 years 4 months 0 years 7 months 0 years 5 months 8 years 6 months 12 years 3 months 18 years 6 months 9 years 5 months 19 years 0 months 21 years 5 months 31 years 5 months 35 years 11 months 33 years 6 months 16 years 6 months 36 years 7 months 5 years 8 months 14 years 7 months 27 years 7 months 1 year 6 months 0 years 1 month 18 years 1 month 10 years 5 months 32 years 6 months 2 years 6 months 17 years 8 months 2 years 1 month 19 years 4 months 17 years 8 months 1 year 7 months 2 years 0 months 2 years 9 months 18 years 10 months 1 year 10 months 13 years 8 months 2 years 8 months 20 years 5 months 17 years 7 months 25 years 0 months 38 years 10 months 1 year 11 months 6 years 8 months 28 years 11 months 0 years 0 months 15 years 1 month 21 years 2 months 6 years 0 months 38 years 6 months 0 years 3 months 2 years 4 months 8 years 6 months Total – 21 Total – 28
It should be noted that the PiP HR database system does not identify posts by profession. 2820 Holders of posts requiring Nursing and Midwifery Council registration which are not identified as nursing or midwifery posts by the positon name may not be included in the above figures
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50. Relocation of nurses – Amount paid in last three years
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How much has been paid in relocation grants and for hotel type accommodation for resettling nurses in each of the last three years?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Payroll information drawn from the Oracle and PiP HR systems show the following amounts have been recorded as relocation grants paid to post-holders identified as nurses: 2825 2019 – £21,679.84 2018 – £52,048.49 2017 – £37,532.43
51. DHSC recruitment and retention policy – Plans to review
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
When a review of recruitment and retention policy will be done; and by whom?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): DHSC does not have a recruitment and retention policy. The Department operates under the Isle of Man Government Recruitment and 2830 Selection Policy and associated policies such as the Government Policy on Re-employment of Public Service Staff Following Retirement. The DHSC does however have a recruitment strategy that was agreed in 2016 together with the associated action plan. Progress against the plan was reviewed in January 2019 by the Office of Human Resources. 2835 It was noted that since its implementation many of the identified actions had been incorporated into the Isle of Man Public Service People Strategy which contains a specific theme on Attract and Hire. The Attract and Hire theme contains five outcomes supported by a number of destination statements all designed to improve the way we recruit across the public service. These 2840 outcomes drive specific actions across all Departments which support their specific challenges. The outcomes are: We have a strong, positive employer brand. We have proactive and competitive recruitment. We have methods of assessment which find the best candidate. 2845 We have prepared and engaged candidates joining us. We have a good exit process. The delivery of this theme of the People Strategy is supported by the Talent Acquisition Service within OHR and a significant portion of their time is devoted towards the challenges within DHSC recruitment.
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52. Training nurses on Island – Current capacity and plans to change
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What the current capacity is for training nurses on Island; and whether there are plans to change the current arrangements?
2850 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): There is current provision to train 14 Adult Nurses and six Mental Health Nurses each year on Island. The Department’s intention has been to train more nurses on Island; however, in the last two years we have not had enough students applying who meet the strict academic criteria as well as achieving success in the values-based recruitment process. 2855 We are looking into alternative access routes to student nurse training via UCM.
53. DHSC recruitment initiatives – Details of those undertaken during 2019
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What recruitment initiatives the Department undertook during 2019; when and where; and whether there have been any major successes, failures or lessons learned?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): During 2019 the Department worked with the Office of Human Resources Talent Acquisition Service (TAS) to produce a bespoke video for nursing roles which is embedded in electronic media, for example the JobTrain, locate.im and social media which has resulted in a lot more interest in the Isle of Man as a place to live and 2860 work. Joint working between the DHSC, OHR and the Department for Enterprise resulted in an article in the Nursing Times July 2019 issue which is raising the profile of nursing within the Isle of Man. On an ongoing basis the Department’s managers work with the Office of Human Resources 2865 Talent Acquisition Team to produce bespoke campaigns for consultant roles and hard to recruit nursing roles. This has resulted in high-quality applicants. Work has been ongoing into exploring the potential for DHSC to advertise on the UK NHS Jobs website: NHS Jobs. A project was undertaken in relation to nurse recruitment which primarily explored the 2870 potential to recruit from the EU, in particular via links with Italian universities. This identified that there were a number of logistical difficulties including the requirement for an infrastructure to support such recruitment including those needed to support fulfilment of UK registration requirements and successful settlement on the Isle of Man. This was likely to necessitate a commitment of significant resources, the likely impact would only be known over the longer 2875 terms and it carried potential risk in terms of conversion of Italian student nurses to employees that would be retained beyond a limited term. This has not been taken forward at this stage. Children and Families service began investing in a ‘grow your own social worker’ scheme four years ago and the first secondee returned qualified at the end of 2019, with nine others who will return qualified over the next five years at a rate of two/three per year. 2880 On 23rd November an open day was held at Southlands which attracted approximately 40 people. Two thirds of those who attended expressed an interest in recruitment and one third in
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voluntary opportunities. The event attracted a lot of attention on social media and Manx Radio and is being followed up to so we will be able to measure more accurately the success. Occupational Therapy National Fair UK generated 120 leads and these are being developed 2885 into applications for live vacancies. Supplementary information • The Department is exploring the use of an international recruitment agency to support development of in-house capability. • Work is ongoing in relation to developing a refer a friend scheme. 2890 • The use of NHS jobs site for Isle of Man vacancies has been delayed by ICT issues but will be live shortly. • Links with Step into Health (recruitment from armed services) are currently being explored. • Adult Social Care is looking at more engagement with the high schools on the Island with 2895 Older People and Dementia Care and Support Services. This will start next week (w/c 20th January 2020) where they will be attending an assembly at Ballakermeen School. The hope is to attract people interested in a career in Adult Social Care at a much younger age and work with the schools to develop experience and volunteering opportunities. 2900 • Initiatives to improve support to candidates throughout the process including drafting on documents designed to provide candidates with better information and use of video job adverts which provide candidates with testimonials from people they may be working with in the future. • More support offered to managers to carry out assessment centres as opposed to just 2905 interviews to improve the assessment of candidates and the quality of people hired. • Streamlining the application form to comply with data protection and equality legislation and to improve the candidate experience and make it as simple as possible for candidates to move from interested to making an application.
54. Nurse exit interviews – Information held and causes for leaving
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What statistical information is held in relation to nursing exit interviews; and what the main causes are of people leaving the service?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): No statistical information is held in 2910 relation to nursing exit interviews. All leavers have the option of completing an optional exit questionnaire. The questionnaire does not ask for an individual’s profession. Responses on these questionnaires from employees that indicated they were Registered Nurses, in relation to the reason for leaving were as follows:
Retirement over age 65 8% Resignation or retirement under age 65 92%
The responses to the question ‘What will you do next?’ were as follows:
Career break 20% Further Education 5% Move to public or private sector off Island 10% Move to public or private sector on Island 30%
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No plans 20% Moving to bank/relief 10% Relocating to UK 5%
2915 Respondents are not compelled to answer all questions. Information was also drawn from both the Oracle and PiP Human Resource databases for the period from 1st January to 31st December 2019, for holders of posts identified as nursing or midwifery posts, gave the following reasons for leaving:
Dismissal Attendance 6% Resignation – personal choice 35% Retirement 47% Other 12%
55. Geddyn Reesht and Grianagh Court – Amount spent of money allocated; progress of projects
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How much has been spent of (a) the £1.7 million allocated this year to Geddyn Reesht, and (b) the £1.5 million allocated this year to Grianagh Court; and what progress has been made on each project?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): In summary, the scheme to refurbish 2920 Geddyn Reesht will house two very different client groups and therefore we have had to ensure the design is acceptable to both services and can accommodate everyone’s needs within the build. The building will be split between Children’s inpatient Mental Health Services beds and Adult Mental Health Services step down accommodation. As the design has been developed, changes have been made to ensure the unit will comply with up-to-date standards and will 2925 support our needs for the future. The project funding for this refurbishment was interlinked with Manannan Court from the outset and therefore I have split the expenditure below. Much of the preparation for this scheme has been completed, therefore the complete project time frame will be shortened. With regard to Grianagh Court this scheme is aiming to provide accommodation to support 2930 Elderly Mental Health Services outpatient facilities and Children’s Mental Health Services, day facilities. Again these are both very different services working closely together to provide accommodation which is separate, however, utilising buildings which are currently within our estate. As Hon. Members will be aware, a regular exercise is undertaken with Treasury to reconsider 2935 the planned expenditure against the forecast expenditure. Therefore, our estimations made in August 2019 revised down the anticipated expenditure to £250,000 for Manannan Court/Geddyn Reesht and £30,000 for Grianagh Court. To date the total expenditure for 2019-20 is £75,618.08 for the two schemes: (a) £21,310.36 on Manannan Court, £8,336.38 on Geddyn Reesht 2940 (b) £45,971.34 on Grianagh Court However, more expenditure is expected for both schemes in the coming months.
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56. DHSC locums, bank staff and relief staff – Budget and expenditure for last three years
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How much has been (a) budgeted and (b) spent, in the current year and in each of the three previous years, on (i) locums, (ii) bank staff and (iii) other relief staff, broken down by area of expertise?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Please see the breakdown of locum and bank expenditure by area for the Department in the Linked Table here:
http://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t200121_Q56_LinkedTable.pdf
2945 This data has been taken from the trial balances from the Isle of Man Government accounting system.
57. Bowel cancer – Diagnoses in last 10 years, trends identified and action taken
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How many people have been diagnosed with bowel cancer in each of the last 10 years, broken down by age quartile; whether any trends have been identified; and, if so, what action is being taken?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): We are unable to provide data on cases of bowel cancer diagnosed over each of the last 10 years. Until 2018, new cases of cancer were not routinely registered in a way that would allow analysis of incidence or survival. DHSC 2950 has been working towards a full registry system for all cancers and data on new cases of bowel cancer has been recorded since 2018. DHSC is now working with Public Health England to produce a ‘cancer profile’ for the Isle of Man which will enable routine analysis and publication of statistics regarding incidence and prevalence of all cancer types.
INFRASTRUCTURE
58. Current DoI projects – Update and compliance with timescales and budgets
The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
Pursuant to his letter to Members of 10th January 2020 providing information as committed to at October Tynwald, if he will provide the information for the current projects including anticipated compliance with timescales and budgets?
2955 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): The Department has 112 schemes listed within the current 2019-20 Financial Year. ______875 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Analysis of this list shows the following breakdown:
Schemes completed on time and within budget 70 Schemes completed on time but over-budget 1 Schemes completed late but within budget 1 Schemes anticipated to complete on time and within budget 15 Schemes anticipated to complete on time but over-budget 1 Schemes unlikely to complete within time frame but on budget 3 Schemes unlikely to complete within time frame or budget 1 Schemes which have been deferred to a later year 5 Ongoing schemes which are carrying on into 2020-21 13 Schemes which have been removed from the programme 2
59. Aircraft using Ronaldsway – Information required, when and by whom
The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What information is required by aircraft seeking to use or using Ronaldsway airport either for touch and go landings, stop and go landings, or for full stop with taxi back landings; whether this information is required prior to, on, or after landing; and by whom this information is required?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): The Airport permits either a touch and go or a full stop landing. When an aircraft requests a touch and go landing at Ronaldsway the following 2960 information is required beforehand: Aircraft call sign Aircraft operator* Aircraft type Intentions (e.g. flight profile/types of approach) *Where relevant, for example an airline. Most light and corporate aircraft operate under their aircraft registration.
2965 Where an aircraft requests a full stop landing, the following information is required beforehand: Aircraft registration Aircraft operator Aircraft type 2970 Origin of flight This information is required by the airport operator.
60. First-time buyers’ schemes – Number of people using each in last five years
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
How many people have used each of the first-time buyers’ schemes in each of the last five years, broken down by region?
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The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): There are two first-time buyer shared equity schemes enabling eligible applicants to purchase their first home on the Island. They are:
First Home Choice for applicants who wish to purchase from the open market, and 2975 First Home Fixed for those who would rather a new build property, or a buy-back resale.
The detail for each of the schemes is set out below:
2014-15 First Home First Home Area of Purchase Choice Fixed Douglas 3 Onchan/Laxey/Lonan 2 Ramsey/Maughold 1 Northern Parishes 1 Total: 7
2015-16 Douglas 7 7 Braddan/Marown 1 Onchan/Laxey/Lonan 4 Peel & Western/German/Patrick/Michael 8 4 Castletown/Santon/Malew/Arbory 2 2 Port Erin/Port St Mary/Rushen 1 6 Ramsey/Maughold 3 3 Total: 25 23
2016-17 Douglas 7 3 Braddan/Marown 2 3 Onchan/Laxey/Lonan 3 Peel & Western/German/Patrick/Michael 5 1 Castletown/Santon/Malew/Arbory 2 3 Port Erin/Port St Mary/Rushen 1 3 Ramsey/Maughold 1 Total: 21 13
2017-18 Douglas 5 3 Braddan/Marown Onchan/Laxey/Lonan 4 2 Peel & Western/German/Patrick/Michael 5 3 Castletown/Santon/Malew/Arbory 2 Port Erin/Port St Mary/Rushen 1 1 Ramsey/Maughold 3 Total: 17 12
2018-19 Douglas 7 4 Braddan/Marown 1 1 Onchan/Laxey/Lonan 2 1 Peel & Western/German/Patrick/Michael 2 Castletown/Santon/Malew/Arbory 1 Port Erin/Port St Mary/Rushen 10 Ramsey/Maughold 1 Total: 11 19
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2019-20: to date Douglas 7 4 Onchan/Laxey/Lonan 2 1 Peel & Western/German/Patrick/Michael 2 Castletown/Santon/Malew/Arbory 6 Ramsey/Maughold 1 1 Total: 5 12 Grand Totals: 86 79
POST OFFICE
61. Post Office Retail Network Modernisation Strategy – Business case for self-service kiosks
The Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael (Mr Baker) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
Further to the Post Office Retail Network Modernisation Strategy: what the expected investment required is to implement an automated self-service kiosk to provide post office services; what the anticipated pay-back period is on this investment; how this pay-back is expected to be achieved; and if she will circulate a copy of the Post Office business case assessment to support her answer?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): Isle of Man Post Office (IOMPO) currently has 11 self-service kiosks, which are currently positioned in locations across the Island. All of these kiosks are fully depreciated and therefore no new investment has been made. 2980 The Board of IOMPO believe its postal kiosks provide a sustainable and affordable service in local communities, often located where there is high footfall and extended opening hours. Usage of the kiosks is closely monitored and they are moved from time to time to more suitable locations if demand requires it. Should IOMPO make future investment in kiosks, an appropriate business case and 2985 investment appraisal will be undertaken.
62. Sub-postmasters with one or two offices – Number who are over 45 on 1st January 2020
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
How many sub-postmasters responsible for no more than two post offices on 1st January 2020 are in the age category 45-49; 50-54; 55-59; and over 60?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): Isle of Man Post Office does not record the data required to respond to this request. Services are provided by retailers acting as sub-postmasters under a contract for services.
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63. Post Office Crown services in Douglas and Ramsey – When existing contracts end
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
When the existing contracts with the suppliers of Crown services in Douglas and Ramsey will end?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): The former Crown services in Douglas and 2990 Ramsey are contracted on a fixed-term basis. The initial term is for five years with an option to extend for a further five years. For Douglas the initial term is to 30th June 2020, for Ramsey the initial term is to 11th October 2020.
64. Sub-postmasters with two or more sub-post offices – Current contract end dates
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
Whether there is an end date on the current contracts with those responsible for managing two or more Island sub-post offices; and, if so, when it is?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): The former Crown office services in Douglas and Ramsey are the only sub-post office contracts that meet the criteria specified. Both are operated 2995 on a fixed-term basis. The initial term is for five years with an option to extend for a further five years. For Douglas the initial term is to 30th June 2020, Ramsey is to 11th October 2020.
65. Ballasalla Post Office – Number of transactions compared with other offices
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
If she will provide, for the most recent calendar month for which data is available, a ranking of Ballasalla sub-post office in relation to all other sub-post offices by number of transactions under the headings of (a) sale of Post Office products; (b) issuing of benefits and pensions; (c) sale of vehicle licences; (d) payment of utility bills; and (e) other transactions?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): Isle of Man Post Office (IOMPO) is collating the requested data. Subject to seeking permission from its commercial partners to publish the requested data, IOMPO expect to provide no later than 31st January 2020.
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66. Ballasalla Post Office – Equality impact assessment of possible service changes
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
If she will circulate the equality impact assessment relating to the possible changes in services available at Ballasalla Post Office?
3000 The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): An impact assessment has been created. It is a working document during the consultation, while feedback on potential issues and mitigations is obtained from key stakeholder groups. The assessment will be circulated after the board have agreed the basis on which future services will be provided in Ballasalla.
67. Ballasalla Post Office – Proposed closure and future plans for service provision
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Cregeen) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:
What discussions the Post Office has had with other providers for provision of postal services with regard to the proposed closure of Ballasalla Post Office; when and why the decision was made not to advertise for a new sub-postmaster at Ballasalla; why the Post Office waited until the Christmas break to make a public announcement; and what plans the Post Office has to advertise for a new sub-postmaster for Ballasalla?
The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): 3005 What discussions the Post Office has had with other providers for provision of postal services with regards to the proposed closure of Ballasalla Post Office? Isle of Man Post Office held an informal meeting with Mr Barry Powell, Clerk to Malew Commissioners, on 14th October 2019 and discussed the sub-postmaster’s termination.
When and why the decision was made not to advertise for a new sub-postmaster at Ballasalla? 3010 The Isle of Man Post Office board are actively consulting on potential changes to the provision of services in Ballasalla until 24th January 2020. The decision regarding the actual changes and any procurement that might be required in line with Government Financial Directives will be made after the consultation has ended.
Why did the Post Office wait until the Christmas Break to make a public announcement? 3015 Malew Commissioners and the Hon. Members for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Cregeen MHK and Mr Moorhouse MHK, were advised by email on 18th September 2019 that the Ballasalla sub-postmaster had provided notice of termination on 9th September 2019. The formal consultation process was started after the end of the three-month cooling-off period during which the sub-postmaster could have rescinded his notice.
3020 What plans the Post Office has to advertise for a new sub-postmaster for Ballasalla? In line with principle 6 of the Post Office’s recommended financially and socially responsible demand-driven service network development strategy, that was supported by the Hon. Court, the board are formally consulting on potential changes to the provision of services. The decision regarding the actual changes and procurement that might be required, (in line with Government 3025 Financial Directives), will be made after the consultation has ended. ______880 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The Court adjourned at 1.01 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.
Order of the Day
3. Department of Health and Social Care – Supplementary Vote – Amended motion carried
The Minister for Health and Social Care to move:
That Tynwald authorises the Treasury, in respect of the year ended 31st March 2020, to apply from General Revenue a sum not exceeding £8,000,000, being the additional amount required by the Department of Health and Social Care in respect of forecast expenditure incurred in the provision of its services in excess of the Tynwald approved budget. [MEMO]
The President: Please be seated, Hon. Members. Just a reminder to please make sure mobile devices and devices are switched to silent, please. We turn to Item 3 on our Order Paper – Department of Health and Social Care 3030 Supplementary Vote. Minister for Health and Social Care to move.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. During this current financial year ending 31st March 2020, the Department of Health and Social Care is again forecasting to be over its allocated budget. Whilst measures are ongoing to 3035 mitigate the additional amount required, in order to be prudent I am today seeking a Supplementary Vote of up to £8 million. Members will be aware that this amount is larger than the forecast provided in the Tynwald Answer in December, which estimated a £5.4 million overspend. The forecast has been updated with the latest financial information, in particular with the winter pressures and we now 3040 anticipate a possible overspend of just over £7 million, which is why I am today requesting additional budget of up to £8 million. The requirement primarily comprises of £9.2 million for Noble’s Hospital and £4.4 million for contracted services, with the overspend there coming from referrals to UK health providers. Offsetting those are a £4.2 million existing central contingency and net favourable variances of 3045 £2.4 million in other Divisions. Last year the net expenditure for the Department was £220 million and the current year forecast is expected to be around £230 million. This additional £10 million of spending equates to growth of 4.5%. Whilst I acknowledge this level of growth may not be sustainable for the Island, it is considered within the normal range for developed health and care environments, 3050 which makes it even more essential that both the Department and the Transformation team based in the Cabinet Office continue to drive forward the changes we need to deliver in order to ensure our services are not reactive but proactive and preventative focused, in order to seek to limit the growth in acute care. Sir Jonathan Michael’s Report indicated that a conservative high level of growth could 3055 otherwise be up to 4.9%. Much of the growth this year relates directly to increased activity in demand for care and therefore treatment costs; and I will come to more of that later.
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Between 2018-19 and 2019-20, the budget increased by £6.7 million or 3%. The level of growth in the actual expenditure has therefore outstripped the budget by over £3 million, and this goes some way to explaining why the Supplementary Vote for 2019-20 is more than 3060 requested in 2018-19. I want at this juncture, Mr President, to make it absolutely clear that the Treasury provided additional budget for all of the bids that we submitted for the 2019-20 year, along with further amounts for pay awards. However, with the Sir Jonathan Michael Review of the Department ongoing at the time, the Department quite rightly was prudent in its budget bids, recognising 3065 that the Report would have a significant impact on the future structure of the Department, the services it will provide and therefore its future budget requirements. As a reminder for Hon. Members, Sir Jonathan’s Report was unanimously approved by Tynwald in May 2019, giving the Council of Ministers the mandate to ensure that each of the 26 recommendations set out within it are implemented in their entirety. Recommendation 19 of 3070 the Report states that increases in funding for health and care services will be required to support the increased demands that will be placed on those services due to demographic changes, non-demographic changes and inflation. Recommendation 17 states that increased funding should be linked to the achievement of annual efficiency targets. One of the objectives of the Transformation Programme in the coming nine months is to 3075 establish an appropriate baseline budget for the Department and then to identify the level of efficiency savings that can be built into that budget in future years. Several of the transformation projects related to other recommendations will help refine the budget over time, including service-by-service reviews and external quality regulation. A new framework of governance and accountability will ensure that delivery of the recommendations and a new 3080 operating model is achieved within agreed timescales. Mr President, the Department is absolutely committed to the Transformation Programme and has provided considerable resource from staff within the Department to help work with the Cabinet Office-based Transformation team to progress the recommendations. As with previous years, the Department has also suffered from the impact of recruitment 3085 difficulties across the NHS. In October 2019, the Nursing Times reported that there were 43,000 vacant nursing posts in the UK, which was a 12% vacancy rate. The Department has 75 registered nurse and midwife vacancies, which is also a 12% vacancy rate in nursing. The use of agency and bank staff continues at the moment to be necessary to maintain safe working levels, particularly within Noble’s Hospital, in order to provide an appropriate level of 3090 acute care. Significant efforts are ongoing to attract nursing staff. This includes completion of a nursing recruitment video which is attached to all nursing adverts; the rebranding of some wards to attract nursing specialists; and offering rotation across the wards in order to develop acute nursing skills. Recently, there has been some success in the recruitment of posts which are traditionally 3095 hard to recruit to. Appointments have been made for five consultants in geriatrics, acute medicine and anaesthesia, with start dates before year end. This alone will deliver savings of around £250,000 in the coming financial year, but has come too late to assist with this financial year. Progress is being made with a further four respiratory and cardiology appointments, which 3100 will be joint appointments with Liverpool Heart and Chest Hospital. One cardiology post is currently out to advert, with other posts due to be advertised before the end of the financial year. The anticipated full year savings, once all these consultant posts are recruited to, is £1.1 million. 3105 Currently, nine out of the 10 medical speciality doctor posts in medicine are vacant, resulting in a £1 million pressure due to the use of locum doctors to cover vacancies. These vacancies are again an indication of a wider international skill shortage and recruitment challenge facing the sector. The Department is addressing this challenge through a more focused recruitment ______882 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
strategy, strengthening formal partnerships with specialist NHS foundation trusts and 3110 developing an alternative approach to the workforce delivering these services. There have also been conversations with the Department for Enterprise to see how we can partner in order to use the Locate brand better to assist with recruitment – something I know the Minister for Enterprise and other Members of that Department are keen to assist us with. That assistance is very much welcome and I hope that we can work together on that. 3115 Recent successful consultant recruitment is allowing us to develop our capacity and capability to train doctors in-house to consultant level in some specialities. This will significantly increase our ability to attract junior doctors who would like to advance their training, therefore filling medical doctor vacancies that have been lying vacant for several years. A business case is going through an internal approval process to support this, which forecasts to release around 3120 £900,000 when implemented. Approval for this will be finalised when the new Medical Director joins the Department shortly. Over the previous four financial years, there has been a saving of £2.4 million in agency costs; and the current financial year is on target to deliver a further £400,000 reduction. This is down to the use of bank staff rather than agency staff, better negotiation on rates, a reduction in the 3125 on-call rate and the enforcement of breaks. Continuous improvements are under way to ensure the Department’s temporary staffing office, who manage the provision and allocation of bank and agency nurse and locum cover, can continue to provide effective and robust services to meet the needs of the Health Service. In relation to treatment, we have seen increases with both on- and off-Island treatments. On 3130 Island, there has been increased demand for many medical services – endoscopy services, which include bowel surveillance, being a prime example. The Department has successfully consolidated endoscopy services on the Noble’s site, which has delivered increased capacity, successfully addressed the backlog of surveillance patients, and provided capacity for dealing with ongoing bowel surveillance. Hon. Members will recall, this has been a subject of much 3135 scrutiny by this Hon. Court. Demand, however, continues to increase year-on-year, which is mirroring the UK demand for these services also, with 4,112 new referrals for scopes in the year to April 2019. The Department submitted a business case for the 2020-21 Budget to continue to address the demand for increased activity, but in the meantime has been dealing with the increased demand 3140 from within existing resources. The Emergency Department has seen a 21% increase in attendances over the past months, which is around six and a half thousand more patients. Weekend attendances are increasing, with the average from 1st January 2019 to 30th September 2019 being 195; but from 1st October 2019 until the beginning of January, the average has increased again to 254. At the 3145 same time, it has suffered from significant medical vacancies, including two consultants, three speciality doctors and two clinical fellows. Workforce reconfiguration will take place in accordance with recognised Royal College Emergency Department standards of service, which will result in elimination of the use of agency and bank staff in that service, but as a number of doctors are currently on limited-term appointments, recruitment problems could continue into 3150 the next financial year. Cardiology has seen an 11% increase in referrals during 2019, which is an additional 192 patients. The Ambulance Service has seen an 8.3% increase, or 950 additional ambulances dispatched by the 999 emergency system, taking the total to 12,400 during the year. In time this pressure 3155 will be addressed by the shift of patient-centred integrated care into the community, as already under way by the Department and identified within the Sir Jonathan Michael Review. As I said earlier, there is an expected £4.4 million overspend on contracted services, which is primarily from services we contract from UK providers. This includes the treatment of serious and complex conditions which cannot be treated here on Island. In previous years, spending on 3160 UK referrals has been fairly static, at around £21 million, but in the current year costs are ______883 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
expected to be around £4.4 million over the budget of £19.3 million – a 14% increase over previous years. Within the Acute Hospital Services, this is as a result of various factors, including increased patient numbers, several highly specialised cases, such as proton beam therapy and transplants, 3165 and high-cost complex patients, including cancer treatments and cirrhosis surgery. The majority of these cases are difficult to anticipate, as treatment is on a reactive basis, and transplants of course depend on the availability of your match. Therefore the large year-on-year increase was not expected at the time of setting the budget. Treatment costs at one of our biggest off-Island providers, Clatterbridge Cancer Centre are 3170 expected to be 25% more than last year, with radiotherapy and cancer drugs being the main contributors of the increase. The cost of cancer drugs from Clatterbridge is anticipated to be almost £1.2 million for the year, with around 50% of that being spent on one drug which helps to increase the number of red blood cells in the patient’s blood. A typical organ transplant can cost in the region of £100,000 and a cirrhosis surgery is around 3175 £55,000. We are currently aware of at least five kidney transplants which will be required at some point this calendar year and are awaiting costs from a recent lung transplant patient. It is difficult to determine in advance exactly how much each patient will cost, as each case is unique in terms of recovery time and the post-op length of stay in hospital. However, the Department’s head of commissioning is currently holding conversations with the highly specialised 3180 commissioning team at NHS England to introduce improved processes to track highly specialised patients and costs from a commissioning perspective. As part of the Transformation of Health and Care Services, a commissioning model will be developed to assess and understand the Island’s needs, plan services to meet these needs and secure high-quality, value-for-money services. This model will support governance and 3185 accountability to ensure improved outcomes. The DHSC recognise these cost pressures in ensuring our residents can access and benefit from specialist treatment in the UK, and whilst we continue to be prudent in our budget preparations in light of the Sir Jonathan Michael’s Report and current budget pressures within the entire portfolio of Government-delivered services, the Department accepts there will be ongoing cost pressures to support treatment within the UK in 3190 the short to medium term. Therefore, a business case has been submitted for approval for the next financial year, which will help redress some of the budget shortfall in tertiary referrals, although cost pressures will still remain in 2020-21. Within the UK, spend on medicines in NHS England has grown on average at 5% each year. However, the Department is forecasting a saving of £1.1 million this financial year in our drugs 3195 budget. This reduction is the result of an organised medicines optimisation programme in the Department, which encourages cost-effective prescribing, along with a cost reduction in some expensive brands of medicines used in the hospital due to patients expiring … patents expiring, sorry. A Freudian slip there, Mr President! (The Speaker: I’ve got it!) During the current financial year, the Community Care Directorate has been created within 3200 the Department. This new Directorate combines Adult Services, Mental Health Services and Primary Care, including GPs. It is the first step in the development of an integrated care model on the Island which has seen a successful project move to the implementation phase in the west of the Island. Given this success and subject to further development of performance indicators for integrated care outcomes, Treasury has recently supported a bid, subject to Council of 3205 Ministers’ approval for a further £1.2 million from the Healthcare Transformation Fund for the implementation of the second phase of the Integrated Care Strategy. While the Transformation Programme continues to take shape, the Department recognises that it cannot be complacent in the delivery of business as usual and continues to develop initiatives to help redress the budget imbalance. The Hospital Cost Improvement Programme has 3210 identified savings estimated at £6 million, with around £1 million of that likely to be delivered in the current financial year. Many of these have been outlined earlier including reconfiguration of the workforce in some areas the successful appointment of permanent consultant posts and the ______884 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
reduction in the cost of medicines and acute services. The benefit from these and other changes will continue to be seen in 2020-21 and the programme will be aligned to the savings and the 3215 approach to these efficiencies within the Health and Social Care Services, as identified by Sir Jonathan Michael. When the Sir Jonathan Michael Report was approved by this Hon. Court, Mr President, it was made clear in the Report that change would not be instant. Health and Care is one of those areas where a change made today can take a period of time before the benefits of that change 3220 filter through. But I am confident that with the changes we can make as a result of the Sir Jonathan Michael Report and with the support of Hon. Members, the Transformation team will leave us with a modern, 21st century health service that we can be proud of. But we do need to recognise that it will not be an instant quick fix. It will take several years to embed and deliver. 3225 Hon. Members will be aware that this has been another year of change within the Department as far as the senior management team is concerned. I would like to put on record my thanks to the Interim Chief Executive and the team that has been leading the Department on an interim basis since the summer; along with sincere thanks to all of the staff of the Department of Health and Social Care for their continued commitment and drive in delivering an 3230 excellent service on Island. We are very lucky with the staff that we have across Health and Social Care, Mr President, and day in, day out I am absolutely amazed by their dedication and commitment. (A Member: Hear, hear.) At the start of this month, the new Interim Chief Executive, Kathryn Magson, started with the Department and brings a wealth of experience in NHS senior management, along with a track 3235 record of getting things done. Kathryn will lead the Department through its transition phase into the new world when Manx Care is established, and I very much look forward to working closely with her in the coming months. To summarise, Mr President, the Department of Health and Social Care is going through a period of unprecedented change and is committed completely and utterly to implementing the 3240 recommendations of Sir Jonathan Michael’s Report and working with the Transformation team and Cabinet Office. Our spending for the year is expected to be significantly over budget again and I must say, no one is more frustrated at that than me. The issue this year has been one of costs of delivering care and treatment to the people of our Island. With the extra costs required to meet those care demands, the only way as Minister I could potentially have pulled back those 3245 costs later in the year would have been to stop the delivery of certain types of care, and frankly that was not something I was prepared to do. So I hope I have highlighted today a number of reasons for that growth. Substantial increases in treatments both on and off Island, combined with ongoing difficulties in recruitment which are common across the NHS. Additionally, I hope I have demonstrated that the Department is 3250 continuing to make inroads into solving many of the difficulties we have had with some significant success stories in recruitment recently, which will reduce our spending on agency and bank staff. I remain confident that progress has been made and will continue to be made. So although it has been a year of frustration, there have also been some achievements which I think we must 3255 recognise as well. And it is important that those achievements are acknowledged, despite the final out-turn position. In closing, Mr President, I thank the Hon. Court for their patience and I ask again that this Hon. Court continues to show support for the National Health and Care Service. I beg to move the motion standing in my name and in doing so, Mr President, I believe there is an amendment 3260 which I now see has been circulated in the name of Mr Hooper. It is simply to say that I am fully supportive of that amendment.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe.
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3265 Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to second and to share a few thoughts on this request. It will not have escaped the attention of Hon. Members that I do not usually rise to speak on detailed financial matters. I am no finance expert. In these cases, I ask myself how can I apply what I do know to the subject in hand? And in this case, the case of our Health Minister requesting an extra £8 million in order to 3270 continue running our NHS, I am reminded of the stark contrast I experienced when filming a TV series with an NHS surgeon who was seconded to a hospital in Zambia. I remember standing in an operating theatre at a patient’s side with the camera in one hand and a clamp in the other. The clamp was holding open the patient’s incision because there were not enough theatre staff to assist in the operation. The surgeon carried out the operation with 3275 her bare hands, as the hospital could not afford gloves. The hospital could not afford antiseptic either, so there were several buckets of distilled water at the back of the room and this water was used to wash the patient’s wound. If we want the best medical treatment for the people of the Isle of Man we have to be willing to pay for it. I think that was the main message which came from Sir Jonathan Michael’s Report. 3280 The Minister has acknowledged where overspend has occurred and highlighted areas where savings are being made. I am confident that through the huge transformational change which is afoot in this Department, further efficiencies will be identified and that as we grow in realisation that prevention is the key to cost savings down the line, I believe we will see further savings. But the reality we, as Members, signed up for was that if we want a health service which truly serves 3285 us then it is going to cost us. And having seen the alternative, it is worth every penny. Thank you.
The President: Mr Speaker.
3290 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. We are sometimes fortunate to have an Order Paper of juxtapositions and contrasts and I have to say that this Item, sat next to the Climate Change Action Plan, is a fantastic example. In the Climate Change Action Plan we have seen a whirlwind of activity: the appointment of a subject matter expert; the delivery of an evidence-based blueprint in a tight timescale; a work 3295 stream; a budget identified to tackle a complex issue. It sits in stark contrast to this Item which has given little cause for similar optimism. The Minister talked in his contribution about operational change but I would like to raise a few issues not addressed in the Minister’s lengthy explanation, whilst also recognising the achievements that have been made. I hope the Minister will forgive me for focusing on the 3300 things that have not. I do not mean to take away from the successes that the Department has had, but there is some accountability that we need to exercise. I do want to raise the issue of the Department of Health and Social Care’s recruitment. We have had a flurry of chief executives, deputy chief executives and other senior staff who have entered and exited the Department in the last five years, and now we add a change director to 3305 this list. What is going wrong in the recruitment and retention of senior staff here? I think we are on our fifth chief executive, including interims, in six years. And I noticed that as at yesterday morning when I last checked, and three weeks into the role, the DHSC’s website had not been updated with the new chief exec’s name and I was not sure whether to read anything into that or not at that stage. I was wondering if they were going to start putting the names on the door 3310 in Velcro so that they are cheaper to change. But furthermore, the key post of Transformation Director, tasked with delivering Sir Jonathan Michael’s key structural reforms by next year has, I understand, also gone. Just three months after the Chief Secretary said, and I quote: ‘I am confident that John is the right man for the job’. Will the Cabinet Office be looking at its track record critically here and looking at whether our 3315 processes are really getting the right people for the job?
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I also understand, and I would welcome the Minister’s clarification on this in his summing up, that this role may not be replaced, which again places a real question mark about how this critical project is going to move forward. And finally on this particular point we have a new chief operating officer post which was not advertised and put out to wider expressions of interest. 3320 Why? HR aside, my second concern is that we still appear to be getting the budgeting system wrong. A Cost Improvement Plan has been circulated for 2019-20. We have not yet seen the one for 2020-21. So I wonder how both the business as usual and transformational savings are being identified and being held to account for delivery. 3325 I think we also should have questions about how last year’s budget allocation was produced and subsequently decided by Treasury if this result, a 4.5% cost increase, was exactly what the Minister foresaw. As it says in the memo: ‘Sir Jonathan Michael’s Final Report indicated that a conservative high level of growth could be up to 4.9%’. So if the costs were foreseeable, why then were they not budgeted for? 3330 We have also been left in an uncomfortable position as Members of Tynwald in being asked to support an £8 million spend without knowing what our forecast out-turn for the year will be. In other words, can we afford an additional £8 million? And I am grateful to the Treasury Minister for his confirmation yesterday that this overspend will not drive us deeper into the red, by which of course I mean our deficit after the drawdown from the Public Sector Employee 3335 Pension Reserve. But I am sure I feel like many others, that without causing significant damage to our Health Service we have no option but to approve it. Those are my main concerns and thus far my comments are entirely my own. However, I would like to reflect the disappointment of the entire membership of the Public Accounts Committee on the way things appear to be progressing for the Department of Health and Social 3340 Care. We look forward to the next Department’s annual update which will be, I believe, scheduled for May, and of course the 2020-21 Budget next month. But your Public Accounts Committee has made a decision that we will hold a further hearing on the DHSC’s progress on Finance and Transformation later in this parliamentary session to allow for a far better examination of the underlying issues than this debate alone can provide. 3345 We do of course welcome any comments, concerns or evidence from Hon. Members and the public on this issue and we will of course be reviewing the Hansard of this debate in preparation for that hearing. Mr President, no-one in here underestimates the significant challenges in our Health Service. This Court has supported a plan to reform it and it is the role of this Court to hold the Executive 3350 to account for the delivery of that plan. It cannot afford to slip. Our nation’s health and our nation’s financial health depend on it.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
3355 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to start actually with a quote from last year’s Supplementary Vote debate – I figure we are here again. The Hon. Minister stated in his remarks in that debate, he said:
I wish to assure this Hon. Court that I firmly believe that our financial position is improving. The fact that I am standing here before you in our March sitting demonstrates this. Over the past few years this debate has occurred in January.
(Laughter) So by the Minister’s own logic, the fact we are back here in January having this 3360 debate shows the financial position in the Department has gone backwards this year. And the Minister has quite helpfully outlined this is in part due to increases in demand but it is clear from the information provided that this is predominantly as a result of staffing costs – £42.5 million. That is where we are at today. Over the last five years Tynwald has been asked for an extra ______887 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
£42.5 million in Supplementary Votes for the Health Service: £9.9 million; £11.1 million; £9.54 3365 million; and now another £8 million. And, despite assurances we have received in the past, we are back in exactly the same position that a number of us warned we would be in. And, if we are honest, we all knew we would be here. We all know the challenges faced by the Health Department do not have a quick fix. It is not going to be resolved overnight. Back in 2018 I argued we should not be robbing Peter to pay Paul from within the Health 3370 Service budget. We should not be subsidising Noble’s by cutting back elsewhere and we should instead properly budget in accordance with our expectations. And despite being criticised for that stance it seems the Health Minister has followed my advice and has decided to take a quite robust stance in respect of the overspend at the Hospital, which I think is quite reassuring in some ways. 3375 Now, without wanting to repeat any of Mr Speaker’s comments, I think now it must be the time – five years – for us to acknowledge the budget for the Health Department is not adequate right now, and trying to control it by setting a budget that is too low and forcing a Supplementary Vote year in, year out is just not working as a cost control mechanism. I just do not think we have accepted that; I do not think it as a Court, as a Government, we have 3380 accepted that the Health Service just needs a slightly higher base budget. That is what this boils down to. The Minister has said in his opening remarks that over time, as changes and improvements are made, the financial situation will improve. We know in the medium to longer term there is a plan and a rebalancing that will come forward as part of Sir Jonathan Michael’s Report and the 3385 changes that it led to. But in the immediate term, right now, we have this constant under- budgeting, Supplementary Vote, under-budgeting, Supplementary Vote – every year. It is not working. It is not good for the Health Service. I would like to think that this year’s budget will include a true reflection of the expected cost for 2020. So we are not back here again in January or in March 2021, because we all know that it 3390 is going to take longer than 12 months to address a nearly 10% overspending, £9 million variance in hospital services employee costs. That is not going to be fixed in a year. Let’s be absolutely honest with ourselves. So along with setting a realistic budget for the Health Service, I think it has to come alongside a firmly nailed-down cost improvement and staff management plan, one that deals with all the 3395 costs that have been identified and also sets out how the Department proposes to deal with its staffing cost pressures. The current Cost Improvement Plan that we have seen seems quite minimal, identifying maybe £6 million in savings with a million or so next year. But we have a £9 million overspend in just one area. So I am not sure how we are going to close that gap. I would like, for myself, an explanation 3400 from the Minister of how he plans to close that gap. I think without serious and significant and constant effort we are just going to be here again in 12 months. So today, as I stand up saying this, I cannot bring myself to vote for another blank cheque for the Health Department. I think we need to see a plan attached to this vote that says how the Minister is going to address this continued overspend, and how he is going to address these 3405 challenges, and a timescale for how that is going to happen. We have a Transformation team in place but we know that is going to reap benefits in the very long term. And so we need an idea of how these challenges are going to be fixed in the short to medium term while that plan gets off the ground. So that is why I have circulated this amendment today. This amendment that says absolutely 3410 we support the Minister’s attempts to bring costs under control. We support the Health Service in trying to manage its budget. But equally we need to see more. As a parliament we need to see more. The amendment that I have tabled will still approve the Supplementary Vote and will still approve the additional funding and simply adds the requirement or the request to present a 3415 staffing cost improvement plan back here to Tynwald Court by June as an additional ______888 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
requirement. I have chosen June as I think it should allow the Department enough time to get its true year-end figures together, to prepare a plan, to have it approved by the Department or maybe even CoMin. But it is enough time for them to do the job properly. I do not want to see this rushed. 3420 Obviously if the Minister feels confident he can bring this forward sooner. I am sure this Hon. Court would not object. Hon. Members, we would not be doing our job if we simply allowed the Health Department to carry on like this. Five years in a row looks dangerously like this situation is becoming business as usual, and I am absolutely sure that is not the intention of the Minister. I am sure that is not 3425 the intention of this Hon. Court. So I think we have to assist the Minister in bringing his Department’s spending back under control by keeping a closer watch on how that is happening, specifically in respect of those serious challenges that the Department has already identified in respect of staffing. Hon. Members, I beg to move the amendment that is in my name:
To add the words: ‘; and that the Department should present to Tynwald no later than June 2020 its plans and timeline to bring staffing costs into line with the pre-approved budget’
3430 The President: Hon. Member, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Minister for Health and Social Care for using the word ‘frustration’ in his speech because I think that sense of frustration is probably felt by all Tynwald Members. I 3435 suppose what it comes down to is the fundamental aspect which the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper stated. Are we dealing with an overspend or an underfund? That was the question asked this time last year and I still have not been given the answer to it. I suspect we are talking about underfunding, and I suspect working for an underfunded service perhaps causes that sense of frustration amongst the workforce and affects morale. And 3440 I think the Minister was very good at expressing that in a recent radio interview when he talked about staff morale being an intrinsic part of the healthcare sector, particularly at Noble’s. Now, there are some good things going on. He talks about the increased number of consultants recruited and appointed for substantive posts and only this week there has been a new head of neuropsychology and physical health appointed, who will provide really good 3445 services that perhaps have not been highlighted here previously. But what this and the commissioning of new services and looking at services in the United Kingdom does not do, is translate into reduced waiting times yet for patients. I think there is that wish that although there is a lot of goodwill there it is getting a bit tired, and when people are faced with long waiting lists and low morale within the service they are concerned about that service. 3450 He also talks about the Medicines Optimisation Project which started in 2017 and which has been an investment, particularly in primary care, but also in Noble’s outpatient pharmacy, to drive down the prescribing costs, which has bucked the trend throughout the United Kingdom. We have seen a 4.7% reduction in costs on the Isle of Man and a lot of that has been due to providing the right IT and equipment to allow people to prescribe the right medications, but also 3455 investing in pharmacists to come into general practice and give that advice on the ground. And these are fantastic initiatives which are bearing fruit. My concern is that those savings, that efficiency, those improvements are actually being used to bail out Noble’s Hospital as opposed to upskill primary care and deal with some of the other aspects he wants to achieve in terms of integrated care, care in the community and preventive 3460 care. And it is that holistic approach I think which is really necessary for the Health Service here. So in essence I think the Hon. Member, my hon. colleague is quite right that we are faced with very little choice, but there is some light at the end of the tunnel. But what we need is a ______889 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
clear direction of how to get out of that tunnel in the first place and I would be very happy to second and also support the Hon. Member’s amendment. 3465 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. 3470 I rise to speak to this motion more with a sense of regret and disappointment than anything else. But my contribution focuses on us here in this Hon. Court rather than the Department. Hon. Members may recall that I had a little fun at my own expense on the matter of madness (Laughter) as it was raised by the Treasury Minister in the debate on my motion about fairness for the low-paid last month. Well, surely this motion is the true epitome of madness: doing the 3475 same thing year after year after year and expecting a different outcome. Actually it is bonkers! It has been going on for so long now, poor budget-forecasting in Health is becoming a fond tradition. The trouble is if we really want to fix things, we must first be brutally honest with ourselves. There is surely a terrible arrogance about an organisation such as this Government that believes 3480 it can fix everything else around it but cannot or will not fix itself. It has become a bit of a joke that I said I only wanted to stand for one full House, only to reappear for another. When first elected I was foolish. I thought that fixing Government to better serve the people rather than serving itself was so self-evidently necessary that everyone would wish to do it and that we could do it in five years. And how wrong I was! In standing last 3485 time I did not even expect to get returned. I promised nothing to my constituents as I went around door to door – and my colleague will reconfirm that point. I just asked them to please read my manifesto and if they did not agree please do not vote for me. I said that again and again, because I believe in government reform. My manifesto was called The Little Book of Government Reform and on page 9 I wrote this – this is in 2016 and my thoughts on this had 3490 formed in 2013 and 2014:
As a matter of some urgency we need to streamline and modernise our systems so that we direct money away from unnecessary back office functions to front line services such as health, social care and education. We must also personal government services to you
– the constituent. And I said, as Baroness Martha Lane Fox put it in her 2015 annual Dimbleby Lecture:
We need to take money from the cold hand of administration and put it in the warm hands of teachers and nurses.
3495 Much to my surprise I was returned, but under this leadership of this Chief Minister and ably supported by some of his Ministers, the concept of smaller, smarter Government was literally laughed out of this Court. On page 9 I wrote of the challenges that lay ahead regarding the cost of employing teachers and nurses and medics. So here we are now, years later and right still in the thick of it, no 3500 further forward. Rather than Government fixing itself, the Chief Minister ensured that the total focus was on Brexit and albeit the important details of the Programme for Government, but the fundamental strategic analysis has not been attended to and has effectively been pretty well non-existent. Government has done everything and anything rather than making itself a modern and efficient organisation that could afford to pay the necessary funds to frontline services that 3505 we clearly are seeing as inadequate at the moment to its teachers, that we heard about earlier. On the big strategic issues this administration has failed and no wonder public confidence is dropping. So, Mr President, today I do not address my remarks to the current Council of
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Ministers; I address them to those amongst you who will be the next Ministers in the next House after I have finally been put to grass. 3510 To you, to those Members, the future Ministers, I say accept once and for all that if you want first-class frontline services, then accept that there has to be a cost to that and to pay for it you will have to streamline Government. You will have to do that. You will simply have to have smaller, smarter Government in the future if you truly wish to serve those who put you here. I will follow your progress from afar with interest and concern, and I wish you well. Only if you do 3515 that we will be able to stop this annual pilgrimage back to Tynwald for extra millions of pounds for our Health Service and I, of course, support the Supplementary Vote today and the amendment to it, and I wish those who are our future Ministers the best wishes that I possibly can. Thank you, Mr President. 3520 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Miss August-Hanson.
Miss August-Hanson: Thank you, Mr President. I do understand that there is no predicting cost and upcoming need in health and social care 3525 and that problem exists the world over. I do not envy the Minister in that regard. I do believe that there are potentially bigger issues, wider issues within Government and Treasury’s approach to departmental budgeting that we may perhaps not necessarily have dealt with quite yet. I would like to say, though, that I would like to thank the Minister and Treasury’s financial 3530 officers for being so forthright with me on this particular issue, but we are looking at an amount up to £8 million and perhaps the Minister might fill me in on a couple of points in a very direct and transparent fashion. In your breakdown of costs – which I thank you for providing, by the way, though I do feel it sort of strange that we continue to ask for these things privately; perhaps all Ministers might 3535 consider the need down the line for it to appear as an attachment to the Order Paper in future. A breakdown of costs would be very helpful in understanding why … it is such a large amount of money so it would make sense. You say, Minister, if you will allow, Mr President, that you need £7.1 million. I have also been given a figure of £7.2 million to April and the request for Tynwald is for £8 million, so which is it? 3540 And if you need further contingency funds why can’t you just ask Tynwald for them down the line? I will support you with my vote and also will be supporting the Hon. Member for Ramsey as well, Mr Hooper, but I am a little bit reticent to vote for a further £800,000 or £900,000 that you can spend without accountability on what that will be on. So I would appreciate some comment 3545 on why the need for that additional contingency is there when we cannot actually scrutinise what that will be spent on between now and when we see the Budget. So, Minister, thank you for taking the time to email me as well. I appreciate that. It is much appreciated. Thank you, Mr President. 3550 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I think, considering this is about a supplementary vote for £8 million, it is then tempting to 3555 look at all the other issues around that and to have reference to the transformation project. But I think that in some ways it is not really helpful to actually muddy the two. When I heard the hon. mover’s speech and some of the things that are being talked about, about we need x amount of likely kidney operations and lung transplants, it sometimes feels like the way that we get used to hearing about these things is like we are going around on a board ______891 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
3560 game which is something between Operation and Monopoly, (Laughter) where there are squares that go round and at some point we all travel around and there is a square that says ‘Go to Treasury’, you have got a square that says ‘Go to Tynwald’ and you have (A Member: Collect £200.) ‘Collect some more money’. Exactly. It is more than £200, as we know, but I think that the key really was that the prudent budgeting … what is missing is clearly the realistic budgeting – 3565 realistic and well-conceived, because if we know actually you are not really budgeting to where you need to and then that is why there is this habit of needing to come back in the full acknowledgement that actually if we do not have this money then it is clearly bad for the Health Service, that is quite uncomfortable. What is also uncomfortable for me is how we end up in the position where things go so off 3570 track without really being spotted sooner, and I think if there was a position at one stage a few months ago of expecting that we were going to be off budget by a certain amount and the capacity for that will change quite significantly within a few months, for me, it poses questions, I think, on oversight and holding to account. The other matter is I think about listening to people and staff morale and stuff that is already 3575 happening at the Hospital. If you talk to some people at the Hospital they will say that actually they are not surprised at all that more funding is needed for bank staff and for the people that are actually doing the critical work, because some will have the view that actually they look around, they see layers and layers of management when we are obviously part way through approaching dealing structurally with the Health Service. 3580 I think that there is a morale issue but there is a case for listening to the people that: actually where is the money, is it being applied to the right thing? So I think that this hopefully – and I am sure it is not reflective of the broader transformation process and I think through talking certainly to officers that there are changes happening in other aspects of Government and in Treasury about how to bring some of these processes in to get a bit more sight over budgeting 3585 and things like that of the Department. So we are not there yet but it is massively concerning that this has become the norm. I am going to support the amendment from Mr Hooper. Thank you, Mr President.
3590 The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker.
Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to my feet very clearly echoing many of the thoughts that have been made by many of the Hon. Members already – disappointment, frustration etc. I think disappointment is the word 3595 that I settle on, particularly given the Minister’s previous comments which I genuinely think he believed. I genuinely think that he thought when he said those things that the world would be different by now and it is not. It is no different now than it was four months ago and I would love to be able to sit here and say, ‘But it is all going to be different next year’ – I do not believe it is. We have no choice but to support this. The money effectively is spent. We cannot say no. But 3600 why are we here? Undeniably, running the Health Service is a very difficult challenge. Just step back from it; it is an organisation with a gross spend of somewhere in the order of £270 million; that is the £230 million net cost that the Minister showed on his circulation of the forecast outturn, adding to that the £40 million of National Insurance that it receives, so £270 million. That is over a quarter of a billion pounds. That is a big organisation in anybody’s terms. 3605 I do not know how many employees the Health Service has but it is in the thousands. This is a huge organisation. It is a complex organisation. Just the Hospital itself accounts for about half of that cost and, as we all know, a small percentage of a big number is still a very big number. It is a major challenge to run any organisation of that sort of size. It is even more difficult when you have got absolutely no stability at the top of the organisation. 3610 The Speaker touched on the churn in terms of the Chief Executives and also the turnaround of professionals. He did not mention actually the churn in finance directors, but that is equally ______892 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
noticeable. I think they have had three in post during this last 12 months probably, by my estimation. You cannot run any organisation without stability from the top, without leadership and clear direction. I think we have got some major structural issues and Sir Jonathan Michael 3615 said that; he said you need to change the structure. Twelve months ago, by my reckoning, we sat in this Hon. Court; to a Member, we voted through that transformation report. It was going to change the world. I have even heard it quoted as being successful and being advocated as a model for subsequent transformations in other areas. Nothing has happened. Nothing has happened from an outside perspective. I am sure there has been lots of activity, lots of people 3620 being busy. Where are the end results? A transformation programme requires an immediate deployment of high quality, experienced and expensive resources. I honestly felt that when Sir Jonathan Michael’s report was voted through unanimously that within two weeks we would be introduced to the senior team that was going to deliver this. They were going to be eye-wateringly expensive, they would 3625 have been out of line with every pay structure within Isle of Man Government, they would have had a track record of turning around health care trusts in the UK, and it was going to be: these are the people, they are going to hit the ground running, they are going to be endorsed by Sir Jonathan Michael and they are going to go and deliver and do not worry about the cost, it is about the value. 3630 I have seen none of it – absolutely none of it. We have now got an Interim Chief Executive which looks like a great acquisition and we should be glad that we have managed to secure her from a trust in the UK, albeit on a slightly less than full-time basis. We have no Transformation Director. We had one, they turned up, disappeared; no communication around that. I found out by conversation with other Hon. Members that apparently they had left. Unacceptable! We 3635 were not even told. These are key roles. These are people we had pinned our hopes on. They come, they do not settle for whatever reason, they go. Why? Mr Speaker has hit the nail on the head: there is a root cause here. Until we address the root cause we are going to see the same pattern year after year after year. But it is not just financial issues; we are talking about are we under budgeting or are we 3640 overspent? It is probably both, but actually the financial results are the results of what activity goes on. They reflect the management of the organisation, the leadership, direction, morale, the employee performance. They are the results. They are like the football team saying in the Sunday morning paper that you lost 3-0 yesterday. It is actually what happens in the lead-up to the match and what happens on the pitch that determines the result. You have to look at that. 3645 Clearly, things are wrong in the Health Service. They have been wrong for a long time. It is a difficult challenge, it is why there has been a regular change in Minister as well. We cannot just fix the financial issues or the budgeting issues, we have got to address those underlying causes. Sir Jonathan Michael’s report did give a sense that we were going to do that – it was going to be about structural change. We are a year on, where is the progress? I am trying 3650 not to be negative because the Minister and the Department need all the encouragement, the Island needs all the encouragement, but we absolutely have to see progress. We know that there is an underlying high inflation rate in healthcare costs. It is always going to be well above the normal RPI or CPI. And let’s not kid ourselves, Sir Jonathan Michael did not promise to stop that; all he said – and I think I am right in the quote – was that he was going to ‘put a bend in the 3655 curve of rising costs’. So yes, it will have a positive effect, it is not going to solve the problem. We are going to have increasing healthcare costs overlaying our demographic challenges on the Island. This is a long-term challenge and continually funding health and social care to the right level is going to require either taking money off other Departments or it is going to require additional 3660 funding being injected into the model from somewhere. Not trying to pre-empt the Treasury Minister’s Budget presentation next month, but clearly again Sir Jonathan Michael’s report did touch on the need for a long-term funding solution. Whilst we are talking about this, we have
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also got a need for a long-term funding solution for care for the elderly as retirement care, social care. 3665 So we have got some big challenges here that we need to be really grasping hold of. But it is not just financial, it is also management issues. One of the big messages that came from the Minister’s comments was the recruitment issues, which again are longstanding. But they do not just apply to the Department of Health and Social Care, they apply in pretty much every Department in Government. We are struggling to attract the right people; when we do attract 3670 them, do they stay? In fact you can extend it to the Island as a whole; we are struggling to get people to come and commit their long-term futures here. So we need a different approach within the Department and across Government to recruitment. We have to try and change things if we want different outcomes. So there is something not working. There is something not attractive enough about what we are offering 3675 and if we are in a market where we have got to compete for resources and we are not the first choice for people we have to do something different to make it work; otherwise we are not going to get the resources and if we do not get the resources we are not going to have the service and the people are not going to get the outcomes that they want. Whether that is in Health, whether that is Social Care, whether that is in other areas of the public service, we need 3680 a different approach, we need to break the model. I am also concerned about the financial control in the Department of Health and Social Care. You need real expertise. We have got a business or an organisation of over a quarter of a billion expenditure; that needs real expertise and stability and the best financial management it can get. That cannot be achieved by continually turning over finance directors. And I have got to say 3685 the shared service model does not help an organisation of this sort of size, it needs its own resources. I believe that under the proposals of the transformation project, that potentially could come, if we are bold enough and brave enough to devolve those things to the Department or to the organisation. So I would love to stand here and say that I am confident about the future. I really do hope 3690 the Minister and his team, the new Chief Executive, the executive team can deliver on this; but I am not really convinced. I know there is a lot of activity going on, there is a lot of hard work but really, it was said earlier that there is light at the end of the tunnel – I think that is wishful thinking and I would really like the Minister to tell me convincingly why we are not going to be here again in 12 months’ time. 3695 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Miss Costain.
Miss Costain: Thank you, Mr President. 3700 I am slightly disappointed with the debate today: Mr Hooper has referred to staffing costs; Mr Speaker has referred to recruitment and retention of staff; Dr Allinson has referred to morale – and I will not go on. But they are all very valid points. Who has been missed out of this debate today? The patient. Nobody has mentioned the patient. It was through people complaining to me about their treatment, not just at Noble’s but 3705 Mental Health and all sorts of other areas within the Department, that I became interested in all things health, long before I was even elected. That has to be the driving force for everything we do, surely. It is not just about cost improvement plans. It is not just about reaching budgets. It is about the service that we give to the people of the Isle of Man. And I can tell you now it is not adequate. I do not know if it ever has been, but certainly 3710 within my memory it has not been adequate. There was a hospital in Scotland that I came across when I was Minister that I was very interested in, because they had very poor standards, they were always in deficit. And do you know how they turned it round? They said, ‘We are not going to look at the money’.
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Now, I know that is a very alien concept and a very difficult one actually to grasp and to go 3715 with. They said, ‘We are going to put the patient first. Whatever is best for that patient is what is going to happen’. They saved money. They were not following the …. Obviously the bean counters were following the money but the staff, the people at the coalface were not expected to. They did what was best for that individual who was in front of them that day. And they saved money. 3720 Why did they save money? Because giving that person the treatment they need and the care that they need, it reduced falls and it reduced the length of hospital stays. And the list went on and on and on. Standards improved dramatically because they were not just following the money, they were looking at the standards and the effect of the care on the people that were in their care. And that is where it should start, surely. 3725 I know the Minister has made a recent statement saying that we do not follow NICE guidelines because it would be a massive cost to do so. I would like a breakdown of that and where this massive cost is coming in. I know that some of the NICE guidelines we actually cannot follow because we are a small Island, and where there is a rational explanation of why we cannot follow them, any regulator – which we should have, by the way, which I have continually 3730 banged on about. Any regulator would accept that, provided you tried to ameliorate the effects of not being able to follow them, if you really cannot follow the NICE guidelines, and they accept on small Islands that you cannot always. But you do your best. You get the best work around that you can. That is all anybody is asking actually, at the end of the day, that you do your best for those people. 3735 The Department has stated that it is working towards following NICE guidelines, so it is a slight contradiction I think. Again, it comes back to morale. Morale is a huge cost to the Department because of staff absenteeism and sickness. It was a huge cost when I was Minister. It was slightly heading the right way but we certainly were not there. And I very much doubt if we are there yet, where all 3740 the staff are actually happy to go to work, and that they are happy they are getting the backing to give those patients, those people, the support and the care that they joined that profession for. Why do you think that we are not keeping our medical staff? Why do you think so many leave within a very short length of time? I will tell you why. Because they see what is happening and 3745 they do not like it and they do not want to be a part of it. The brave ones stay and after a few years they think they can change things. They think they will be part of changing the culture in there. And at the end of the day they realise they are not getting anywhere and they go, thoroughly disheartened. It is heart-breaking to see these professional people trying to do their damnedest for the people of the Isle of Man, and the resistance that they come across. It is an 3750 absolute disgrace! That is what needs to change: the culture in there, the resistance, the standards that we have. We even try to fudge standards, and our waiting lists. How many people do you know that go, ‘I have been waiting years for this’; ‘I have been waiting years for that’? And then we compare our waiting lists to those of the UK and we are told, ‘Actually, they are not that bad,’ 3755 because it is only a few months’ difference. Yes it is, but because we fudge them, because we use two measures instead of one. The UK use ‘refer to treat’ which means your GP refers you, to the time you get your treatment. We have from the GP referring you to a consultant, and then from the consultant to when you get your treatment – and it is that last step that is reported on. Let’s try some proper reporting to the same standards and the same benchmarks as they have in 3760 the UK and see how good we are. There is no doubt about it that maybe we do have to pay more for it. But let’s get some good statistics first, let’s get some benchmarking first so we know what we are comparing to, so we know what we are getting for our money. I mean, I believe the amount per head of population was seen to be not too out of kilter by Sir Jonathan Michael, but that was not comparing to the 3765 standards that they have in the UK compared to those that we have here. Let’s see what we get. ______895 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Let’s see what we have to pay for to get those same standards. I would pay through the nose to have the same standards as some of them. At least you know what you are dealing with. We do not. It is outrageous; absolutely outrageous. 3770 I apologise, Mr President, my passion for health has not diminished since I first came into this place and I do not think it ever will. If you have not got your health, you have not got an awful lot. And to be giving the people in the Isle of Man a health service and a social care service that is not the best that we can do is unforgivable! So obviously I will be supporting the Minister for his extra money. But I really think we all 3775 have to bear in mind that we all take responsibility for the health and the care of our people here. It is not just the Minister. We all have to push for better standards – for better standards in the Hospital and for better standards in Mental Health. There are so many people suffering at the moment because they do not get the service from Mental Health that they absolutely deserve. 3780 So it is immoral for Tynwald Court to say this is acceptable. It is not. It absolutely is not acceptable. Finally, I am going to change tack a little bit, maybe end on a bit of a lighter note – at least I will try. There were some initiatives that were in progress when I was Minister and I am thinking particularly of the changes to prescription charges. That was one of them which was quite a big 3785 saving. There were certain others in the pipeline but certainly the prescription charges had gone through the Departmental meeting and had unanimous support for it. It had gone through the Council of Ministers and had been approved there, and we have never heard any more about it. That was going to raise money that could have been used to improve the standards, improve Mental Healthcare, etc. 3790 I would like to take a minute to thank the Minister for his tacit acknowledgement, actually, that sometimes while I was Minister I did do some good things and did actually get some things right – despite the abuse that I took in various parts of the Island and in this Court. It says:
The Department has successfully consolidated endoscopy services on the Noble’s site which has delivered increased capacity, successfully addressed the backlog of ‘surveillance’ patients and provided capacity for dealing with ongoing surveillance.
That was the intention when I did it. It was explained very clearly in this Court and outside. 3795 And I got continued abuse and questions and, shall we say, a certain amount of nastiness about it. So it is quite nice to see in the current Minister’s speech about it, and I feel slightly vindicated for at least that, if not everything that I did whilst I was Minister. I do wish the Minister well. It is not a difficult job.
3800 A Member: It is! (Interjections)
A Member: It is a difficult job!
Miss Costain: It is not a difficult job if you love it. It is not! It is extremely time consuming and 3805 it drains your energy. But when you make a difference it is the most wonderful job in the world. When I joined the Department – and this is just one of the standards, one of the measurements that we should look for, that we should be following. When a GP suspected somebody of having cancer in the UK there was a two-week target for seeing the consultant, and the target to achieve that was 92%. They realised you cannot get 100% because some people 3810 will not go. Some people go, ‘No, I am having a holiday first’, or whatever the reason. You are never going to get 100%, so they set the target at 92%. The then Hospitals Director could not get the information about how we were doing because our IT systems did not provide it. So he asked for a data dump and he took all the data and he ______896 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
went through it himself and extracted the information himself. He was not an IT person, he was 3815 a nurse; and he could do it. And yet the IT Department told him they could not give him the information. Anyway, he got it and from memory – and I could be couple of percentages out – applying the same criteria as the UK, our achievement would have been 38%. Nobody knew it because the IT people did not report on it. We did not know how we compared with the UK – 38% compared to a target of 92%! That was a bit of a difference. When 3820 he left, our achievement was 93% – sorry, not when he left; when I was sacked as Minister, we were achieving 93%. I do not know what it was when he left but he did some good stuff while he was in there. He did not get the acknowledgement that he deserved. But that is the sort of thing that we need to know. How do we know what our Health Service is providing? How do we know what targets it is reaching and what it is not reaching, which is 3825 more important? And if we had all of that, do you not think that the morale of the staff would be increased enormously if they were able to do what was best for that patient who was in front of them and that they were measured by that? That they knew the results of their extremely hard efforts? Because those frontline staff in Noble’s and in Mental Health and everywhere else, they work extremely hard. 3830 If they had the acknowledgement for their efforts which was shown by the monitoring and the statistics, do you not think that would improve morale? If they knew that the correct standards were being applied, that there was not the resistance to the culture change that is allowed to carry on in there? Would we be standing here today looking for more money? I very much doubt it if all that was in place. I very much doubt it. 3835 So, yes, we do have to support the Department whilst it gets its act together. But those are the things that we should be aiming for. I think I will sit down, Mr President. I think I have said enough. Thank you.
3840 The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr President. Can I just start by endorsing the comments from the Health Minister and paying tribute to many of our doctors and nurses and healthcare professionals, who on the whole deliver an 3845 excellent service to the people of this Island. (A Member: Hear, hear.) One recognises of course that it is not without problems and that issues occur, and that many of us as MHKs have to deal with those issues from time to time. But by far, on balance, the tributes that come in from constituents exceed the complaints that one receives. However, I rise to my feet today just to bring some perspective to the debate. Not to malign 3850 or seek to necessarily outright oppose some of the points that have been raised by Hon. Members, but merely to try and just bring a sense of perspective. My hon. colleague behind me said it was 12 months since we debated Sir Jonathan Michael – it was actually only in May that we had that debate. Of course some Hon. Members have sought to criticise the Government for failing to do 3855 anything about it. Well, the point of the Sir Jonathan Michael Report was to try and understand and work out what we needed to do to stop this incessant budgeting problem that we have, and what changes were needed. But also to answer questions about whether the service was actually underfunded; whether it was actually underperforming; whether it was providing the right services; whether it was fit for purpose; and what we were going to do to make it a better 3860 healthcare delivery, to strive towards the sort of class-leading healthcare and social service that we all want on this Island. So I just wanted to bring that back to Hon. Members and to also suggest to them that actually I appreciate this might not be moving as quickly as some Hon. Members hope, but there was a tremendous amount of work laid out within the Sir Jonathan Michael Report; and of course 3865 within that Report there are in fact timelines included as to when this should be delivered. And ______897 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
those Hon. Members who want to revisit it should, I would suggest, go back and see how Sir Jonathan had proposed this would come into play, and to remind them that actually Manx Care effectively would not be fully operational until 2022. So I appreciate some of the frustration that might be coming through here, because some 3870 Hon. Members perhaps are not a bit closer to this and they just do not perhaps understand what is actually happening. But of course I have to prepare the framework and the legislation around that, and to knuckle down to getting some of the detail that we know is missing. Because as we have all recognised, and Sir Jonathan recognises in his Report, there is a great deal of information, data and statistics missing on which to really base your funding model, and also to 3875 recognise and make judgements on what service delivery should take place. So I would urge Hon. Members to go back to it. I also just wanted to highlight to Hon. Members that Sir Jonathan did, in his Report, talk about how we should try and manage the interim period between now, effectively, and the delivery of the Transformation Programme and getting Manx Care in; and then working with 3880 them to establish the budget, and the ongoing budget, and also where to find that money. So the Review recommended:
… a ring-fenced additional allocation to support the transformation programme, equal to 1.5% of health and care spend for up to five years of implementation (2019/20 to 2024/25.) This amount would be equivalent to £4.3m in 2019/20 …
– which the Department was given.
It would include resources for a team of transformation professionals to lead on the significant change efforts required and for the delivery of this Report’s recommendations.
So, Mr President, I just wanted to bring that back into focus, that we are trying to adhere to and follow the Report’s recommendations and to try and get this delivered properly. I 3885 appreciate that this is frustrating. I also appreciate that eight or nine months is a long time in politics, but a short time in real time. As I said, I do not seek to malign or undermine or oppose some of those comments, I will leave it to the Health Minister to come back on some of that. I just wanted to bring into perspective the contents of that Report and perhaps just remind and refresh Hon. Members that 3890 there was a set course of action. Of course Treasury will have to consider the position of the Department and we need to consider what funding requests are actually put in front of us, and we have taken on board … Clearly I have heard the Minister today and some of the issues that he has talked about today, and I am sure he will allude to, that he has in fact brought in front of Treasury. But until 3895 we get down to getting the hard facts, getting the model up and running, and really getting to the decision-making process around the service delivery and the new structure that is in place, and the funding implications that come with that and where that money is coming from, I think it would be unwise for Treasury to suddenly break away. I think we should have patience; we need to support this. We have to get it through any 3900 issues or problems or whatever comes our way, and get it up and running. I am confident that we will have taken steps to ensure that by the time the new administration starts, this new healthcare model will be virtually close to being set free, and that we will be in a far better position.
3905 The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously I will not repeat anything that has been said previously, or I will try my best not to!
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I just looked with interest when the Minister said that he has 75 nurse vacancies, he has 3910 doctor vacancies and he has difficulty recruiting. I have taken a quick look at the Government website and we have 10 jobs for nurses advertised currently, and we have no doctors advertised other than bank doctors; and I do wonder does he have a handle on how he is going to sort his crisis out with recruitment if we do not even have these positions advertised? It is quite concerning, really. 3915 I do wonder whether we are here today and we are looking at supporting … And obviously all of us will support our Health Service, we have fantastic staff working up there. But I do wonder if we are looking at it the wrong way. I do wonder whether the Minister should not be coming to us asking for £8 million, he should be coming to us with a motion asking this Hon. Court to support him with an overspend. And, under financial regulations, the Treasury Department 3920 should be getting involved at an early date to ensure that there is no overspend in areas. I do wonder whether we are looking at this the wrong way. We are basically giving them an opportunity to spend £8 million of taxpayers’ money to do what they want with it, because there is no control mechanism in place. We received a cost-management plan yesterday on an A4 piece of paper, for an £8 million 3925 overspend. I cannot believe from managers within our Health Service that they felt that was a cost management plan that they were delivering to us. I do have real concerns about the management accountability and I am quite certain our colleagues in Treasury would not accept that as a full management plan for our services. So I just do feel we are doing the wrong thing here. I will be supporting it; I will be supporting 3930 Mr Hooper’s amendment. But to actually give them permission to spend £8 million when on 10th December we only needed £5.4 million, I think it does raise concerns with me. The other area that I really want to focus on – and the Minister can provide this information at a later date. He commented that it was £4.4 million for contracted services from outside of the Island. I actually think that is quite a reasonable cost for the amount of people that I am 3935 aware of delivering services from off the Island. He talks about drugs and he specifically specified Clatterbridge Cancer Services and £1.2 million for cancer drugs. I do wonder why that has been taken out on its own, away from all of the other prescribing costs that are clearly down in the Minister’s budget. I do have concerns, and I know people are aware of this, about having a part-time CEO 3940 seconded to a position and how on earth, when we have got such challenges, that is going to work. I have taken the opportunity to speak to consultants and nurses and the morale is at an all- time low. One of the main reasons their morale is at an all-time low is because they do not get spoken to as individuals. There is bureaucracy and there are an awful lot of consultants who say 3945 they have never spoken to the Minister. I believe if we are going to have a successful Health Service going forward that we need to be engaging with these people and the Health Minister needs to make sure, if he is going to do the job properly, that he hears the views of the health professionals. I just want to remind the Minister of his manifesto pledge and his 20-year plan for securing 3950 our future. He stated in that, that a five-year plan was not good enough – well, we are not even getting a one-year plan currently – and he would like to see one that takes the Island into the 2030s. He also states that we should also be looking to use our on-Island experience more and also trust the skill base we have locally who are qualified professionals within Government, to make decisions and lead our projects. 3955 I think the Minister needs to look at his manifesto pledge and wonder why we are having all these changes within our Health Service by recruiting people that do not have an understanding of our Island, our cultures and what we want to deliver to our people within our Health Service. Thank you, Mr President.
3960 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas. ______899 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. I want to associate myself with the positive remarks and the realistic remarks of the Treasury Minister. I also want to go back to something that Mrs Lord-Brennan said quite some time ago which is that today we are debating the Department’s current situation, not the whole of the 3965 Transformation project. That is for another day, if you want to debate that. But I wanted to say that alongside the positivity and the realism from the Treasury Minister we have accepted that there is a communication issue, and I wanted to focus on two aspects of communication: the message that we all send out collectively from in here, but before we get that we need to communicate from the Transformation project to us to improve that message 3970 that we get in here, and then can give out to the general public. And I would like the Health Minister to confirm with me that we need to do more from the Transformation project to make sure that we know more about what is going on in here, as a board member for that Transformation project; and to then work together as Tynwald Court to make sure the public understands better the enormity of the transformation that is proposed 3975 and that is being delivered. I just want to focus on one little, small point which is the call for smaller, smarter Government. Let’s think about that again in the context of healthcare transformation. If we manage to fill all of those vacancies and replace people on the banks and agencies we will be making Government larger, and the payroll of Government of full-time staff will be larger. So it is 3980 not right to call for a smaller Government to make the outcomes delivered to the Manx public better. If we focus on really getting the legislation in place and Manx Care can be up and running by April 2021 legally and then operationally a bit later, we need to make sure that the healthcare legislative teams are actually properly staffed so that they can deliver that legislation, and they 3985 are not taken off in every little angle that we fancy, going from this Court. And that is about making Government a little bit larger, so it is smarter and better to deliver outcomes for the Manx public. If we are serious about that once we have got the people in place, about keeping them, about reducing absenteeism, about increasing their morale and about making the operating 3990 theatres and every other practical area of healthcare practical, we need actually to focus on HR tactics and strategies and policies and actions to improve the working environment. And that is a few extra people in HR doing the better HR things, so that the morale is better and everything works for the patient with the outcome. And if we want to make sure that we use digital resources to actually help cut the costs and at the same time make healthcare outcomes better, 3995 we do actually need people inside GTS delivering the transformation in every area of healthcare. So what I am saying is it is very easy to go, in nine months, from an action plan to deliver something that will take the three or four years, to becoming us firefighting and defending things; and I hope this Hon. Court will accept a degree of apology and a degree of acceptance of the challenge that we have got. But if we need to communicate better to Hon. Members what 4000 the transformation is all about, we should do that and we will do that from the Transformation team. And I would hope that we can all join together to make it easy, or easier at least, for the Transformation team to provide that transformation, that once-in-a-generation transformation, so that the yearly annual operations of the healthcare service is better for us – more effective, more efficient and actually delivering the outcomes for Health that we all need. 4005 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: I call on the mover to reply, Mr Ashford.
The Minister for Health and Social Care: Thank you, Mr President. 4010 Now comes the challenge of reading my own handwriting. Starting off obviously with my seconder, Mrs Sharpe, the Hon. Member of Council, the comment I would make in relation to Mrs Sharpe is, firstly, thank you very much to her for ______900 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
seconding the Supplementary Vote today. I would say that most certainly we are very lucky to have the Health Service that we have; we are lucky to have a service that is free at the point of 4015 delivery and when you look at many other types of healthcare systems around the world and the challenges and problems that they are facing it does come home to you just how precious the NHS that we have actually is. In relation to Mr Speaker, I can say in relation to transformation he will find it in one of the Written Answers today which was to the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker, where 4020 there is an update on the transformation. There are seven workstreams already underway of the 14 that have been broken out of the Sir Jonathan Michael review to implement all 26 recommendations. In terms of the Transformation Director, all I can say, Mr President, is that it is regrettable that he moved on so quickly but it was for personal reasons and I do not have permission to 4025 share those here in the Hon. Court. But certainly I think I echo what the Chief Secretary said at the start: when he was appointed I believed he was the right man for the job, but unfortunately sometimes things happen that we cannot take account of. One of the things that the Speaker will be very pleased to know since he has referred, Mr President, to the change around is that within the Supplementary Vote there is no budget for 4030 Velcro (Laughter) and there is no intention of having it either. One of the things the Department does need, and I recognise, is stability. We have got a very good team in place. I hope that as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee he would recognise as well that the quality of the management that we have in place in the Department currently is exceptionally good and I hope that they will be around for the long term as we develop the new 4035 system of health going forward. One of the things I do need to mention as well is of course when he mentioned about the Sir Jonathan Michael review and taking things into account, obviously it is important to acknowledge that the Sir Jonathan Michael review came through in this financial year. It came to Tynwald in May with the initial report in January, so we were already, by the time we actually 4040 got to May, in the financial year, so it was not quite as easy to simply pick up the recommendations and try and do the changes, we were already partway through the financial year when it came through. In terms of the comments Mr Speaker made in relation to the Public Accounts Committee, I look very much forward to working and engaging as, I hope he will acknowledge, I always have 4045 with the Public Accounts Committee; and I look forward to doing that over the next 12 months as well, and beyond. In relation to Mr Hooper, he mentioned about robbing Peter to pay Paul. We are most certainly not doing that within the Department. One of the big things about the Sir Jonathan Michael review was a focus on community and it is important that community has the funds to 4050 be able to do that, not just from the transformation side but also within the day-to-day side as well, because as I have said many times we should not just be relying on the transformation, there is day-to-day that the Department needs to do as well and that is exactly what we are doing. Manx Care, as the Hon. Treasury Minister mentioned when he spoke, is in the process of 4055 being designed ready for legislation to come forward so that we can get things in place; and that does involve rebalancing of the base budget, and that will happen over the next nine months because we need to know from the point of view of Manx Care of what base budget we will be starting with in those services. So that work is actually ongoing. A cost improvement and staff management plan is also underway and I fully support his amendment. As I said in my opening 4060 remarks, I think it is very important that we have that attached. There is work already underway in that regard and I have absolutely no problem at all with that coming forward to Tynwald for June at the latest, but we will see what we do in terms of timescales. It is most certainly not business as usual within the Department, Mr President, we recognise there needs to be time for change. We have had various words which I use myself in relation to ______901 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
4065 frustration and the problems that we have experienced this year. Certainly I am trying to do everything I can as Minister to try and mitigate those problems going forward. In relation to Dr Allinson, on that very note the frustration is very much shared and I am sure the frustration is felt by all Members as well. One of the problems Dr Allinson referred to is underfunding, Mr President, but until we can get a proper base budget sorted out, which we will 4070 be doing as part of the work for Manx Care, I cannot stand up here and genuinely say one way or the other, because we need to get the proper structures in place. Because at the moment we are an exceptionally acute focused system – the centre and orbit of the system is Noble’s Hospital and, if anything, the overspend this year has proven that because it is in reactive patient care and what we need to be getting to is preventative – which Dr Allinson, quite rightly, 4075 mentioned in his remarks. In terms of waiting times, which Dr Allinson touched on and several other Members did as well, work continues to move to an 18-week referral to treatment and that would be on the same basis as the UK as well as their measure for 18-week referral to treatment; and also the way that we work as well, the way things are done on the ground, that is all part of a review. We 4080 are investing in primary care because primary care is a critical part of the system. They are, in many cases, the first point of contact for people and they are also one of the best areas to start moving into a preventative territory. So we are investing in primary care and I see primary care as essential to the model going forward. I can assure Dr Allinson that primary care is not being used to bail out Noble’s, in fact quite 4085 the opposite. We are hoping to get more resources into primary care to help make that much more robust. So there is light, I think, at the end of the tunnel. I know there were several references by Members to there not being any light. It might be a small light at the moment and it might be a flickering one, but I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I still believe that the 4090 comments that came out of the Sir Jonathan Michael Review are the right approach and I believe we will get there. Mr Hooper referred to some comments I made particularly about the January and March. Well, I had a feeling that might come up so I brought the wider comments with me and that has to be read in some of my wider comments (Interjection and laughter) where I actually said I have 4095 been around far too long in one forum or another … The other wider comments which were: I have admitted we have all still got an awful lot of work to do and an awful long way to go, so I am not trying to underestimate it. That is part of the commentary that was put around that and I think it is important that comment is taken in that context as well. In terms of Mr Robertshaw, again words of regret and disappointment that we are in this 4100 position and again I share those. He mentioned about the definition of insanity, which I think was Albert Einstein’s definition: the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Certainly, I do not want it to be being suggested that I am insane and doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same result. That is why there is a need for us to properly assess the base budget, to make sure that we actually have 4105 that budget correct so that we know where we are starting from and that has got to be part of the Transformation Programme and it is something that is going on, as I have said, for the next nine months. Mr Robertshaw referred to page 9 of his manifesto, which was a very interesting read; I have read it cover to cover. In relation to that, where he mentioned about the need to streamline and 4110 modernise our systems, that is not just across the whole of Government, that is in Health as well. One of the things that we have very much tried to do is around digitisation of records, combining systems up or at least creating a combined front end where we have got multiple systems across platforms so people are doing things with fewer clicks than they have had to previously. So that is ongoing.
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4115 Also the shift that we have seen in Health, particularly around costs this year, has been in that patient treatment arena, which is why I spent quite a bit of my speech laying out a few examples of that, because that is where the key problem has been this year. The Hon. Member mentioned as well about the ending the annual pilgrimage, Mr President. No one would be happier to end the annual pilgrimage than me because it is me that has 4120 constantly got to lead the way and sup at the fountain. I would be very happy to end that annual pilgrimage and I will certainly be trying to do everything in my power as Minister to try and bring that about as soon as we possibly can. In relation to the Hon. Member of Council, Miss August-Hanson, yes, I do not think many people maybe do envy me very much, but one of the comments that was made about which is 4125 the figure, the vote is up to £8 million; it is £7.1 million that is expected to be the overspend, but as with any supplementary vote, Health has got to be prudent because we still have several months to go of the year. For instance, I became aware yesterday of one patient that has had a treatment in this financial year that was a quarter of a million pounds, that if they actually had not had they 4130 would not have survived. Now it would only take one of those to creep up in the final two months of the year and what would happen then is if we went for £7.1 million now and that pushed to £7.2 million we would have to come back to Tynwald again, I would be back here and we would be having the same debate in March and you would probably all be on your feet asking why didn’t I put a contingency in to allow for something like that to occur. So that is why 4135 we go for a slightly higher amount. In the case of another Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, Operation or Monopoly – more a mixture, as it was – I can actually say in relation to that I was never good with either personally. The one thing I would suggest though is that maybe she would consider patenting it – not patient, patenting it! – because it sounds quite an interesting one to me. But in terms of 4140 the off-Island, the £4.5 million around tertiary – why when we were off track was it not spotted sooner? – the problem with treatment costs is it is very hard to spot in that area. While we can plan certain contingencies, so for instance, I mentioned in my speech around kidney patients and we know we have got five potentially coming in the next financial year, we can plan for that; it is the uncertain cases that need referring to the UK urgently that we cannot plan quite so well 4145 for, and that is where the problems come in. Winter pressures as well of course, because November, December, January and sometimes, depending upon the year, February as well can actually be a big drain on the system, particularly when we have a system that is acute focused. And I am sorry, Hon. Members I am going to bore you with this again, my view is the fact that what we do at the moment, which is what 4150 Sir Jonathan Michael’s report is saying we need to move away from and what we are working towards, is actually saying instead of waiting for people to turn up on our doorstep saying, ‘There is something wrong with me. Treat me,’ we need to get to a point where we are going out into the community and preventing them as much as we can from getting ill or to the extent that they are, because at the moment we are just dealing with what turns up on the doorstep and 4155 that is always going to leave patient costs as an uncertainty. In relation to Mr Baker and employees in the Department, the last figure I saw was over 3,000 so we have got over that. I agree stability at the top is important. We have a very good management team, I believe, in place in the Department and although I cannot chain them to the desk and force them to stay around, I hope they will be around and hope they are enjoying 4160 the jobs that they are doing. Mr Baker will be aware that, although it feels like maybe 12 months ago, it was actually May that the Sir Jonathan Michael Review came to Tynwald. As I have said in the Written Answer he will have received this morning, Mr President, to his question on transformation, there are seven workstreams already underway. Those workstreams are progressing and clinical leads 4165 have been appointed to those and I know sometimes it can be frustrating, the length of time things take, but the important thing with the Sir Jonathan Michael Review, Mr President, is it has ______903 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
to work and in order to do that we have got to do it in a managed way. We have got to ensure that the governance structures are right, that the governance structures are in place. We have got to make sure that in a lot of these areas, particularly around the service-by-service reviews, 4170 they are very clinical in nature, we have got to make sure the right clinical leads are appointed with the right experience to be able to drive this forward. One of the things I do need to pick up on, and it was referred to by the Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge as well, is I need to point out yet again that the CEO of the Department is a full-time CEO. She is based on the Island three days a week but she is still our full-time CEO and 4175 even though working remotely, this is now 2020 – I nearly said 2019 then, but 2020 – and that is quite common across many organisations. But she is our employee and she is a full-time employee as well as our CEO. Manx Care, Mr President, is one of the most important structures for us to get in place, referring back to structure again, and that is on course. That is currently in line with the 4180 timescales. I thank the Hon. Treasury Minister for pointing out that if Hon. Members want to go back to the Sir Jonathan Michael Review there are predicted timescales in the back. The work streams that we have got up and running at the moment are on time and there is going to be a long-term challenge for the Department and for Manx Care, but we have to make sure that we do it, like I say, in a managed and correct way. 4185 In terms of recruitment, we are doing different types of recruitment, Mr President. We have videos that are actually targeting particular jobs and roles. We now have access to NHS jobs as well. And in terms of financial expertise, most definitely I agree with Mr Baker there needs to be stability. I am not quite sure where he got the ‘continuous turnover of finance directors’ because 4190 certainly to the best of my knowledge in the life of this House, anyway, going back to the last election the Department has had two – certainly from my memory. So I am not sure about the continuous turnover of finance directors. Obviously Manx Care will have its own finance division as well, because there is a separation of powers there, when it is developed. But also one of the other things that I do need to point out, Mr President, in relation to that, is that under the 4195 shared services model all Departments will still have a finance director under that model. So that is quite important to point out. In relation to the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Miss Costain, I hope she will acknowledge that a lot of my speech was around the patient by the very nature of the fact of the treatments that we require. And I fully agree with her, the patient has to be the core of everything they do. 4200 They are the central part of this and the decisions that we make must be based on that. The Sir Jonathan Michael Review had the patient at the core as the focus of it. And I think that is the model that we have to develop. In relation to NICE I do need to clarify, Mr President, the interview I did was not around NICE guidelines as such; it was around specific NICE authorised drugs and it was only right for me to 4205 point out that if we do follow the drugs that are authorised by NICE there is a bill attached to that. There are no two ways about it. That does not mean we are not going to do it. There is a paper coming forward to the Department very shortly that is looking at the whole way that we decide which drugs are available on our NHS and which drugs are not. So that will be coming forward for the Department’s consideration but it is important to point out that there is a cost. 4210 In relation to a regulator, again. I hope the Hon. Member Douglas South realises I fully support the introduction of a regulator as well. I think it is a sensible thing to be doing. It is one of the Sir Jonathan Michael recommendations and that is progressing as well. We are in conversations with CQC and other organisations about what we can do because one of the problems is, with Health and Social Care joining together only a few years ago in the UK, there is 4215 not one regulator that covers everything. So we need to look to make sure that we have got a joined-up approach to ensure regulation across the whole of the Department. In relation to waiting lists, we are working towards an 18-week referral to treatment time. And we should always be striving to improve the services that we offer, Mr President; and that is ______904 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
not just in Health, I think that is across the whole of Government, we should be constantly 4220 striving to do things better to improve. In relation to mental health, there is still a lot of work to be done, but I think we are starting to move on. We are now partnering with third-sector organisations in relation to mental health to try and help provide community services. We have got the partnership with Isle of Man Constabulary which has been very successful in providing mental health workers on the ground 4225 so they are potentially at first point of contact. So I think things are changing. As I said at the start, I am a very impatient person and I would like to see things instantly. But I think we are moving on certain things. And most definitely I am happy to put on record again the consolidation of endoscopy service at Noble’s has worked, and it has dealt with the backlog. But what we are seeing coming behind is further demand. 4230 I fully agree with the Hon. Member for Douglas South as well that it is a job, being Minister for Health, which makes a difference. I also agree with her in relation to the comments about energy and it being time consuming. But I have been very honoured since taking on this role. I am very privileged to meet a huge, wide range of people from the health professionals that work in the Department, to people with issues that we are trying to resolve. It can be a tough job and 4235 it is not without its controversy and challenge, but I have got to say I do feel very privileged to hold this position and I feel very privileged to have it every single day. I have touched, I think, on a lot of the comments by the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Cannan. I think one of the key points that is put out there – and I need to emphasise this again – is that there needs to be appropriate governance and timescales in place. That is not 4240 instantaneous but, like I say, the first seven work streams are up and running, of the 14. And I fully concur with Minister Cannan, and it was acknowledged in the Sir Jonathan Michael Report, that one of the problems is the lack of data that there has been in the past – of robust data on which to base things. We are having to build that set of data as we are going along. So that is also taking time. 4245 I also want to put on record again, the Treasury has been very supportive of the Department of Health, the entire Treasury board, and I really cannot thank them enough for the help that they have provided us with – not just in this financial year but certainly the previous financial year when I was Minister as well. In relation to the Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge, we advertise in various different forms. 4250 We now have access to NHS jobs to advertise as well. So we do not just advertise on the Government website. We advertise across various different platforms. So we do have the positions out there advertised. And as I said in my opening remarks we will also be looking to partner with the Department for Enterprise to try and use Locate Isle of Man as well. The money, Mr President, is not to do what we want with it; it is to cover the overspend that 4255 we have had, which I laid out in quite big detail in my speech. Certainly a lot more detail than has sometimes gone in previous years before this Hon. Court. I have also shared the Cost Improvement Plan and I have shared a lot more data around the breakdown as well than there has been in previous years. So it is not about giving us money for whatever we want to do with. That is most certainly not the case. It is laid out quite clearly that the overspend is to cover, in 4260 the vast majority of cases, patient treatment. We have had winter pressures as well, as we do every year. Also, the Hon. Member for Onchan says £4.4 million is very good value in relation to the contracted services. That is the overspend, Mr President; the actual overall cost of the patient tertiary provision is around about £23 million, that is what we pay to off-Island providers. It is 4265 not the £4.4 million; the £4.4 million is the overspend on that. She mentioned, as well, Mr President, about the cancer drugs. Well that, if you look when Hansard comes out, was separated out to show an example of the tertiary spend over provision, it was not separated out for any other reason. And again, I need to emphasise the CEO of the Department is not part time, she is employed full time and she is working full time for the 4270 Department. ______905 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Again, I am not quite sure what the Hon. Member for Onchan was getting at; I have been out to pretty much every area of the Department now since I took over as Minister. I have engaged with lots of staff, and I know lots of staff personally who are not shy of telling me what they think as well. I have met regularly with the various consultant bodies as well. In fact I have 4275 arranged to meet with one of the consultant bodies I think it is in the next few weeks, where very recently I have agreed an invitation to go along as well. And I have been up at Noble’s many times speaking to individual staff on the ground. So I am not quite sure where that came from. In relation to my manifesto, Mr President, I think when quoting from someone’s manifesto it is important that again you do not pick one sentence but you actually read what is around it. 4280 And in fact the bit that Ms Edge was referring to, which she did quote correctly, but it was under a 20-year plan securing the future and it was under the Diversifying our Economy heading, because if you read the rider paragraph of what I put, I said, ‘The only way we can balance the books and replace reserves is by a mixture of economic growth and smarter spending’. So it was clear that the 20-year plan I was talking about was not a 20-year plan for Health; it 4285 was a 20-year plan that Government needs to develop as the direction of the economy. (Interjection by Ms Edge) And also in relation to looking to use on-Island experience, again that was around the development of lead projects across Government. Also one of the things I would point out is in Health, if you look at my executive team within Health, most of them are local. So I am not quite 4290 sure where that comment came from, Mr President. I thank Mr Thomas for his remarks and obviously around more transformation communication, I fully agree with him. I think we definitely do and it will be something that will be an item, we will make sure, on the next political board. Thank you, Mr President. 4295 The President: Thank you, Minister. The motion is set out in the name of Mr Ashford at Item 3, and to that there is an amendment by Mr Hooper. I put the amendment to the Court. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 4300 I put the motion resolution as amended. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Hon. Member, the Court has given clear support to the Minister in that resolution. I have been in the Minister’s shoes myself and I look back at Hansard January 2006 ‘Supplementary Vote for DHSS of £6.5 million’. 4305 The Speaker: He wants his shoes back!
The President: So we wish you well. (Laughter)
4310 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President.
Announcement of Royal Assent – Tynwald Proceedings (Amendment) Act 2020
The President: Hon. Members, I am very pleased to announce that Royal Assent has today been given to the Tynwald Proceedings (Amendment) Act 2020.
A Member: Hear, hear.
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4. Climate Change Action Plan – Prof. Curran’s Report; Government commitments – Debate commenced
The Chief Minister to move:
That Tynwald: (1) Receives the independent report Isle of Man Programme for Achievement of Climate Targets by Professor Curran [GD No 2019/0102] [MEMO]; and agrees the Council of Ministers’ commitments and actions, as laid out in the Isle of Man Government Action Plan for Achieving Net Zero Carbon Emissions by 2050 Phase One [GD No 2019/0101] [MEMO]; and notes the commitment to further research work to develop a Phase Two Action Plan; with a progress report to be laid before Tynwald in July 2020; and (2) Notes that Council of Ministers re-confirms its commitment to tackling climate change by the creation of a Transformation Board and the establishment of a Transformation Fund.
4315 The President: We turn to Item 4, Government Climate Change Action Plan. Chief Minister to move, Mr Quayle.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President, Hon. Members. Last year, 2019, the second hottest year on record, was the year the world grasped the 4320 severity of the climate emergency we are facing. Just last week Sir David Attenborough warned us that ‘the moment of crisis’ has arrived. His words echo the thoughts of the Council of Ministers, in bringing their Action Plan to this Court today. This Action Plan will initiate long-lasting, significant and positive changes that set the Isle of Man on a journey to achieve net zero emissions by 2050 to mitigate the effects of climate 4325 change. I hear the questions raised by some of our community who query the impact that a small nation such as ours can have, and ask why we might bother to do anything. In response to that I would like to quote Robert Swan OBE who said in 2012 that, ‘The greatest threat to our planet is the belief that someone else will save it.’ If we want to be globally respected as a responsible 4330 jurisdiction, we must join in with global action – not sit by on the side-lines, using the excuse of our relative small size. It is right and proper that the Isle of Man takes decisive action, and I am delighted to be bringing the Council of Ministers’ Action Plan to this Court today. On behalf of the Council of Ministers, I must thank Prof. James Curran, who has provided an 4335 independent report, from which we have been able to develop our Action Plan. I am grateful that a climate change leader of the calibre of Prof. Curran agreed to take on this challenge. Prof. Curran brought a wealth of experience and expertise in this field and his Report to the Council of Ministers with a range of options for actions to achieve net zero emissions by 2050 has been fundamental to the development of Government’s Action Plan. 4340 My thanks go also to the Climate Emergency Consultative Transformation Team, who worked extremely hard to support Prof. Curran in a tight timescale, in particular the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson and the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake, who along with my ministerial colleagues all played key roles in bringing the Report and Action Plan today. It is right also to thank those who campaign to raise awareness of the importance of climate 4345 change: the Climate Change Coalition; the Climate Change Youth Coalition; and Members of this Court who brought to us the motion last year. Climate change is a matter more pressing and important than any other, and we must act now. The Action Plan presented takes a phased approach to achieving our target. It ensures we take action immediately, whilst continuing to research and understand the cost and impact of 4350 further actions needed in the future. ______907 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Prof. Curran acknowledged the scale of the challenge that we face, emphasised the importance of ensuring that we remain open to future technological advances and reinforced the message that we must ensure that we leave no one behind. To achieve net zero carbon emissions by 2050 will require a fundamental change in the way 4355 we live on the Isle of Man. It will change the way we source our energy, how we heat our homes, how we travel and many other day-to-day choices. If we invest now in this transition, we can maximise the benefits to our community and minimise the impact, especially on the most vulnerable people in our society. An important part of planning for a net zero future is ensuring that we lead an 4360 understandable transition to adopting new technologies and new ways of how we go about our day-to-day activities. With a good understanding of the impact of the proposed actions, we will be able to ensure a programme of work that not only achieves the reduction in emissions required, but leaves no one behind. Presenting this Report today to Hon. Members reminds me that delivering carbon neutrality 4365 by 2050 will be no mean feat. It is vital that we as political leaders acknowledge the enormity of this challenge and serve to meet it in an ambitious yet considered manner. I am under no illusion that for some this Action Plan will not be radical enough; and for others it will be viewed as limiting choice and freedom. This Action Plan is not about taking the easy route; neither is it about being unrealistic about the scale and cost of the changes that we need to make. It is about 4370 taking clear and decisive action to ensure that the Isle of Man is carbon neutral by 2050. As a UNESCO Biosphere Reserve, we are proud to be part of a global network of communities striving to protect their special environment, whilst maintaining a thriving economy. As part of this network, we have the opportunity to show leadership in the environmental challenges of today. 4375 As Buddha observed, ‘Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle’. As a Biosphere nation, we are well placed to lead in putting nature at the heart of our response to climate change. A good example of this is ‘blue carbon’ and we have an exciting opportunity to build on our responsible marine management to increase the capacity of our marine ecosystems to store carbon – not least through protecting and enhancing our eelgrass meadows. 4380 Acting on climate change will be a defining moment for this administration. We are fully committed to this action. This year, Treasury will set aside a £10 million fund to start our work. We have identified 60 immediate actions as the first steps towards our ambitious target. Setting out an action plan is, in many ways, the easy part. Delivering it is where the difficulty is and will really begin to occur. For this Action Plan to be successful, it will need to transform 4385 how we work and think, and climate change must become the lens for our ‘business as usual’. Every decision we make will need to be in line with achieving our target. The Chief Secretary and his Chief Officers have been working on the structure and the delivery model for this Action Plan. It is a plan that will impact on every Department, and require every Department to contribute to it. It is crucial that good programme management with 4390 strong governance surrounds the delivery of this plan. We will have performance indicators and reporting cycles to ensure we are delivering what we have promised. And we will soon have a Climate Change Bill that will provide statutory obligations and enabling powers for Government Departments, Boards and Offices to deliver the target set out. The Bill will be introduced, Hon. Members, in this parliamentary year and will bring us in line 4395 with our neighbouring jurisdictions in embedding in legislation the obligations to achieve the changes required. This Government Action Plan is the critical first phase of the programme that will take us to net zero emissions and represents a bold step forward along the Isle of Man’s path to a zero emissions future. It is important to be clear that to achieve our targets will not be the doing of 4400 Government alone. We must all work together as a whole community to find solutions to the greatest threat humanity has faced. Individuals, families and businesses will all need to adapt and play their part to build on opportunities and create a positive future for all. Now is the time ______908 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
for us to act together, to do the right thing and to make the generations that follow us proud of what we were able to achieve. 4405 I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Boot.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): I beg to second and reserve 4410 my remarks.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. 4415 As a political member of the Climate Emergency Consultative Transformation Team, it will not come as a surprise to Hon. Members to hear that I very much welcome Prof. Curran’s independent Report, underpinned by the hard work of members of the analytical team. Prof. Curran rightly highlights in the foreword the valuable collection of evidence that has been gathered and I trust that all the evidence will be collated and remain accessible to those who will 4420 work on this vital policy area into the future. Hon. Members and members of the public have had the opportunity to read the Report and so I do not propose to comment today on the particular actions it highlights. Rather it is the Report’s positive vision and highlighting of the ultimate benefits of the transition to net zero that I think we must keep in sight. 4425 Prof. Curran recognises that the transition to net zero may not be easy, but he also shows us it can be done. And critically there are opportunities and benefits in doing so. We might also reflect on the cost of inaction: difficult to quantify, but if we do not respond to the changes already underway, particularly elsewhere – for example, in the car industry by ensuring, for example, the grid is able to support increasing numbers of electric vehicles – then 4430 people will no doubt ask in the future why we are lagging behind. I also welcome the Council of Ministers’ response to the independent Report. The tone and content of the Government Action Plan reflect the will to transition to net zero, as well as including tangible actions that can be progressed immediately, whilst committing to further research as needed to address existing evidence gaps and to develop further thinking on certain 4435 areas such as funding options. Again, I do not propose to discuss all the high-level policy commitments and Action Plan in detail. Two areas, however, I believe are worthy of mention, as if this Hon. Court approves the Action Plan today, these areas are critical to underpin its successful delivery. These are policy area 1 and policy area 9. 4440 The speed of action to implement this Hon. Court’s backing for an independent expert to gather evidence and produce the Impact Report was impressive. Indeed, I noted that Mr Speaker referenced this in the previous Item. From making the appointment of Prof. Curran, through to assembling very quickly the analytical team, enabling them to co-locate and work on furtively on the numerous workstreams involved, as well as the team’s hard work and 4445 commitment, it is a powerful example of what can be achieved. Policy area 1, to my mind, must be delivered with the same degree of single-minded determination, leadership, prioritisation and commitment. This remains an emergency. Delivery of this Action Plan is therefore critical. Measures to recruit and second people to enable the Transformation Programme board and team to be put 4450 in place quickly, establishing robust governance and enabling that team to develop detailed programme planning, including KPIs and timelines against the high-level actions – all of this is a must, to ensure timely and effective delivery. Detailed programme planning and project management is something Prof. Curran has highlighted in particular as essential if the Action
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Plan is to succeed. It might not be exciting but it is vital, and I am pleased that the Chief Minister 4455 referenced this already in his opening remarks today. Turning to policy area 9, Prof. Curran has spoken in his Report and in many meetings with stakeholders and the media of the need for the public to be engaged and informed, recognising that the transition to net zero is a whole-Island commitment. It is not something that can be achieved by Government alone. Recognition by Council of Ministers in policy area 9 of the 4460 importance of engagement with individuals and organisations is very welcome and again, to my mind, a key element in facilitating transition. Prof. Curran advises in his Report that a structured programme of public information awareness, advice and education should be launched immediately, well in advance of the necessary climate actions. So I seek reassurance today that this policy area will be given the 4465 support and focus it needs. We also do not have to look very far to harness relevant knowhow. Throughout the period of the Climate Emergency Consultative Transformation Team’s work, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake and I have been approached and have had the opportunity to speak to many people with diverse and relevant knowledge and expertise, who have indicated their willingness 4470 to engage in this policy area and other policy areas, and many of them live already in amongst us. Further, there may be innovative and exciting opportunities that go beyond awareness- raising and that can help meet the challenge, for example, of training and reskilling contractors or perhaps even lead to the Island being developed as a centre for postgraduate research and a testbed for new technologies. The potential co-benefits here remain to be fully explored, but I 4475 believe they should be, both to aid our transition to net zero and to create opportunities for economic development. To conclude, I will be strongly supporting the motion and I hope that the momentum and commitment that has been displayed so far is just the start of significant, well led and managed delivery of action to address climate change, harnessing the many co-benefits for this Island and 4480 its people, as well as enabling us to take our place among the responsible and forward-looking nations and sectors who are already working towards and investing in a brighter future. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson. 4485 Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Chief Minister for his declaration of the climate change emergency last May. Since then, we have seen rapid political changes around the world. On the Island, Prof. Curran was supported by a whole Transformation Team to produce the excellent analysis 4490 behind the Report which is before us today. It is quite evident the amount of work and effort that went into this Report and I would like to thank the Chief Secretary and all those involved for this. Speaking as Chair of Manx Utilities, I welcome the sense of urgency and purpose this Action Plan brings. We have managed major energy transitions in the past. This Island has switched 4495 electricity production from coal to oil and, more recently, from diesel to natural gas. At each stage, we have managed to ensure a resilient and secure energy supply and explained the benefits to our customers. It is vital in any transition that everyone is included. By ensuring the citizen is an intrinsic part of this plan, we can democratise the energy sector. By encouraging community energy projects, we can ensure everyone has a stake in our Island’s future. 4500 There are major challenges in electrifying the heating and transport sectors. We have already started implementing the critical enabling work to strengthen and reinforce our electricity distribution system. Smart-metering will enable a high-tech grid which can integrate a range of variable power inputs produced by solar or wind and supply power to our customers exactly when it is needed. Smart-metering will change the way we think about energy and help 4505 everyone on the Isle of Man play a part in creating a greener, cleaner, low-carbon network. They ______910 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
will enable customers to better understand their electricity consumption and make more informed choices about their usage. Energy efficiency and reduction of unnecessary consumption is a key part of the climate emergency response. We have committed to the installation of up to 30 additional public charging points per year 4510 for the next five years. Some of these should include the newest fast-chargers. There may be increased infrastructure costs installing these and enabling EV charging for the Government fleet and we look forward to discussing with Treasury how the dedicated capital fund might enable us to accelerate these plans. We should also consider how to support the private sector, providing EV-charging points for their employees and customers. 4515 I would like to pay tribute to the Manx Utilities 360-strong workforce of skilled and committed people, who constantly deliver high quality services. Those same people are already supporting the next transition phase for our Island to reach net zero carbon. Our apprentice schemes and training programmes will ensure we have the skills needed for the future. We see the Climate Change Action Plan as a once-in-a-generation opportunity to improve the 4520 services to our Island, to incorporate renewable energy sources, while facilitating customers to move to the use of electric vehicles and air source heat pumps. But it is also a real opportunity for all parts of Government to work together. The Transformation Team has already brought talented people from Manx Utilities, DoI, DEFA, Cabinet Office and Treasury around the same table and invited many more. By working together we can overcome technical and legislative 4525 problems, find solutions to any planning issues and ensure that our Island has an energy sector fit for the future. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. 4530 Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. First of all, I would also like to thank all of those involved in producing this Report and Plan. The papers really pull together developments and experiences from elsewhere and I think they apply them in a practical manner to our Island circumstances. This has been produced in a timely 4535 fashion and addresses the biggest global issue, in line with the United Nations’ call to action. From speaking personally to the officers involved, I sense that whilst it was a challenging experience for them, they also relished the opportunity to work outside Department silos. They have certainly risen to the challenge and I would commend them for all their hard work. Their positive approach and enthusiasm actually has heartened me, gives me increased confidence for 4540 the future because many of the people involved in this will be the future leaders in the Civil Service of this Government. Their can-do mentality and their willingness to look at different ways of doing things, I think is really refreshing. As the Chief Minister has said, this fundamentally will change how we all live our lives and it will impact on everyone. But not everyone wants change and most people take comfort from 4545 the past. That is understandable. Some people are reluctant to alter their behaviour or give up practices that they enjoy. So this is tricky. Some will continue to question why this is needed. A few remain sceptical, offering dissenting arguments to justify continuing as we are. For some, these points will centre around the science and long-term warming and cooling patterns. They talk to me about the last Ice Age, the 4550 Industrial Revolution and so forth. Unfortunately, these people can be very reluctant to accept the scientific evidence, which the Chief Minister also mentioned, that the Earth has never been warming at this level before. There is absolute consensus that there will be catastrophic impacts on humanity if this continues unchecked. Alternatively, some will advance the point that we are a small place. We know that. They will 4555 question what difference our changes will make, if we take action whilst China or India continue on their paths. Of course, that ignores the inconvenient fact that per head of population, the Isle of Man carbon emissions are greater than both these growing industrial giants. ______911 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
But I suspect that those who hold these views will be reluctant to give them up, despite the overall overwhelming evidence and global call to action. Actually, they are missing the point, 4560 because ultimately this is about our future. We should all welcome a sustainable future for the Island. The trends are absolutely clear and in many ways, we have fallen a wee bit behind some other countries in some of the proposed changes. We have been slow, in my view, to embrace renewable energy production. Other places now produce the majority of their electricity from these sources. We have lots of wind. We all know 4565 that. If you travel off Island, you see established networks of electric vehicle charging points. It was great to hear the Chairman of the MUA talk about the plans and how things were going to move but we need to get on with it, because we are a bit behind. They are not just points; they are integrated with smartphone apps to help customer adoption. Other towns and cities have taken action to restrict polluting vehicles from their centres. 4570 Rarely a month goes by before you hear about another town or city which is taking steps along these lines. That is quite challenging for us, given some of the cultural, deeply ingrained views that many people have. Other places also have co-ordinated transport initiatives to encourage systems to adopt more environmentally friendly options. We are also behind on stricter building regulations and on 4575 other policies which reduce carbon emissions. There is more protection elsewhere for the countryside and the natural environment from development. So at times, if you look over the last fair number of years, Manx politicians and senior civil servants have been reluctant to show leadership in sustainable development. So I am really pleased that the Chief Minister is bringing forward this Action Plan today, because that sends a 4580 statement in itself. Clearly this is challenging. Of course this is going to be hard. But the rhetoric also needs to change. It is essential that we move from hand-wringing, shrugging of shoulders, explaining the enormous economic cost. Actually, there is an enormous economic prize here. And it is not just economic; it is a social prize and it is an environmental prize that we can unlock if we take the 4585 right path. In some ways for me personally, I think the biggest challenge here is attitude and leadership. I think that will be tested fairly hard over the next year or so, as we come across some decisions that have to be made. One of the biggest specific challenges is residential property emissions. I am sure we can fix 4590 transport, to be honest – I think that is relatively straightforward. I am sure we can embrace more renewable electricity. We have got lots of wind here. There are lots of credible options to look at that. But if you look at residential emissions, a lot of older properties here – people are very attached to these older properties. I am just unconvinced that it is going to be practical to upgrade these older properties to the required higher environmental standards. 4595 So we are going to have to look at this, I think, creatively. But one thing we can do right now is make sure that all new homes are built to the highest possible environmental standard. For those people driving around the Island, they see new developments – there are some quite large ones on the go at the moment – these homes are not being built to the highest environment standards. These homes are being built to a standard that is lower than our neighbouring 4600 countries. Let’s just remember that fact. I think we also need to avoid building more sprawling housing estates on green fields whilst there are so many empty brownfield sites languishing in our towns. (Mr Thomas: Hear, hear.) If that trend continues, both these things still happen – that we are building homes to a lower standard than elsewhere and we are building large sprawling estates on green fields – people 4605 will be quite entitled to look at this Report and say, ‘It’s just empty words – well-intentioned but there’s no political will to follow through.’ So I really hope that does not happen. The Cabinet Office has an immediate opportunity, Hon. Members, to demonstrate that political will with the next iteration of the Eastern Area Plan. I sincerely hope they take that opportunity. As I say, positive leadership will matter to drive effective change. ______912 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
4610 In some ways, Hon. Members, it can be helpful that we are a bit behind other places, as I mentioned earlier. Technologies have matured. They are now more robust and less expensive. Renewable energy is in many cases now cheaper than traditional alternatives – that was not the case a few years ago. Things like electric vehicles are no longer for the early-adopter enthusiasts. They are viable mainstream alternatives to the internal combustion engine, so we can take 4615 proven best practices from elsewhere, whilst avoiding pitfalls. So that is helpful. However, we must be wary of pride and seeking to design a completely bespoke Manx solution. Sometimes this will make sense, but this understandable desire to be different can also result in inferior outcomes and additional cost. As an example: why do we need our own large power station? We have a small population 4620 and multiple alternatives – particularly now with renewables being more effective. The Channel Islands do not have their own power station. They have reliable electricity, they also have a lower cost than we have, and they have lower emissions. Some may talk about strategic importance of having their own power station. Hon. Members, this comes at a price. What do the public want? Most people I talk to would welcome lower electricity prices, combined with 4625 lower emissions and better air quality. So I would urge an open mind on these and other important decisions, as we move forward. I am also requesting more positivity. People are attracted to communities which live sustainably. They realise that this will not only safeguard the future but will improve their quality of life. There are health benefits combined with improved social cohesion and well-being. Across 4630 the developed world, the private sector is changing to focus on the actions for climate change. There is a wave of green investment seeking opportunities and it was good to hear Mrs Poole- Wilson talk about some of those earlier in her remarks. The Isle of Man is uniquely placed to benefit from this green investment. We are the only national Biosphere. If we can get our act together collectively, then the future is bright – and we 4635 must focus on the future. There will of course be challenges, but these will be outnumbered, in my view, by the very exciting opportunities. Hon. Members, I am confident that this paper will receive approval today, and these proposals set us on a journey, but we must have effective implementation. How many plans, 4640 strategies, papers do we see and then unfortunately the implementation is not great? We must change that for climate change. We should be positive. We should be confident. But we must also be wary of hubris. The future is sustainable growth for our Island and ultimately that is what we are voting on today. Thank you. 4645 The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. Having read through this Action Plan and the accompanying Report, I would like to commend 4650 Prof. Curran and his team for all the work that has gone into this to produce it in such a short space of time. I think it shows what can be done when there is the will to do it. Seven months from the declaration of a climate of urgency to the production of this plan – that is quite an achievement by Isle of Man Government standards. I think there has been enough talk around the climate challenge that we all face. I think we all 4655 agree it is far too late, it is past time for us to act. I welcome in that vein the comments made by Dr Allinson, showing the MUA is already taking action to enable changes that are going to underpin a lot of the actions in this plan. The Action Plan sets out a way forward. Perhaps it is a different approach than I would have preferred, but it is a good place for us to start from. I look forward to seeing these actions delivered in the coming years. The Government does not have a 4660 flawless track record when it comes to turning strategy into delivery, but I am hoping that this plan will lead to swift and meaningful action. ______913 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Mr President, these days I seem to find inspiration in the most bizarre of places. The Chief Minister takes his from Buddha or from Winston Churchill. Mine is often somewhat more esoteric. This whole climate debate puts me in mind of something written by Terry Pratchett in 4665 one of his Discworld novels. (Laughter) He wrote:
There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who, when presented with a glass that is exactly half full, will say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty.
And for me this debate about climate reflects that perspective quite well: people who believe the glass is half full, arguing that we can adapt, we can change, we can see the benefits from the climate challenge facing us; and those who believe the glass is half empty, arguing that whatever we do will not make a difference, so why bother – what is the point? 4670 But Terry Pratchett goes on to say that the world in fact belongs to a third group of people – that is, those people who can look at that glass and say, ‘What’s up with this glass? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don’t think so. My glass was full and it was bigger.’ So those who look at this debate and see it as a straightforward glass half full or half empty are both right in part. The Island can contribute to the global carbon solution and we can make 4675 the necessary changes. But equally, we are not going to solve global carbon neutrality all by ourselves. Nor am I convinced by the argument that our actions will have an impact on other larger jurisdictions. And so in this vein, we must be that third type of person: the type that looks at the challenge in front of us and says, ‘We don’t have to accept that there are only two routes – an all-out 4680 charge or nothing. We will not accept this, that there are only two routes, and instead we must be focused on making our Island better – a better place to live and a better place to work.’ This means putting people at the heart of our climate strategy, focusing on actions that will have the most meaningful impact on people’s lives, as well as on our carbon contribution. What I mean by this is straightforward, and I will try and illustrate it briefly. One of the 4685 priority or year 1 actions identified in the Report is to look at building an onshore wind farm – launching a prior information notice. Now, this is a fantastic ambition. Renewable energy generation is clearly the future. But what will be the impact on people? Will it reduce electricity prices? Will people be living in warmer homes? Will it result in improvements to the transport or quality of life? I do not think so. 4690 So undoubtedly, it is a good thing that the plan is to generate some electricity from renewable sources as quickly as we can do, but because it will not directly result in improvements in people’s lives, should it really be a priority? Our focus in these early days should be on actions that will most benefit people whilst at the same time reducing our carbon contribution. Carbon reduction is necessary, but it is only part of the picture when we are talking 4695 about such significant changes to many areas of Island life. Miss Costain made this point about the Health Service, that people come first, and that is just as true for this Action Plan. Prof. Curran acknowledges this in his Report. He talks about something called a ‘Just Transition’. He says:
An important aspect is also to ensure a “Just Transition” which seeks to deliver a well-managed development of a sustainable, low-carbon economy, while respecting social justice, inclusion, welfare, a fair distribution of costs, decent jobs and particular protection for the poor, the vulnerable and the disadvantaged.
4700 I believe this is encompassed in the policy principles – number 10 specifically – but I would like some reassurance from the Chief Minister that we will be prioritising those changes that will help people the most. The other area of this debate that has already been referenced will inevitably be cost. I am not sold on a lot of the cost projections. Some of the underlying assumptions do not quite work 4705 for me – for example, the idea that we lose Vehicle Excise Duty but do not replace it with
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something else; I think we would, inevitably. So I would like to present a slightly alternative view. If this Action Plan results in people living in warmer homes that are cheaper to heat, lower electricity prices, green jobs, less waste and a healthier population, then this is not a cost; this is 4710 an investment. It is an investment in people. It is an investment in our economy, in our Island and an investment in our future. Mr Shimmins warned about designing a purely Manx solution, which I accept as a valid concern. But I would equally like to warn about simply lifting practice from elsewhere without thinking about our own situation. Copy and paste is not always the right approach. What works 4715 well for others might not be what is best for the Isle of Man. There are a lot of very real opportunities in front of us coming out of this Action Plan and the associated Report and I think as an Island we need to be willing to take some risk and take the opportunities that work for the Island. This is clearly set out in the seventh policy principle and also something that Prof. Curran talks about, when he talks about his Just Transition. He says:
The greening of an economy presents opportunity to be an engine of growth and a net generator of decent, green jobs that can contribute significantly to general welfare.
4720 But he acknowledges that:
it is important to be aware of some of the challenges … [and] the possibility of some sections of society being left behind …
In this vein, Terry Pratchett leaves us with some final thoughts that I think are also quite relevant. He says:
at the other end of the bar the world is full of the other type of person, who has a broken glass, or a glass that has been carelessly knocked over (usually by one of the people calling for a larger glass) or who had no glass at all, because he was at the back of the crowd and had failed to catch the barman’s eye.
Hon. Members, we must ensure that no one is left behind as we move forward and equally, let the Island not be at the back of the crowd. Let us not fail to grasp the opportunities 4725 presented to us as we progress this Climate Action Plan. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson.
4730 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I will start my contribution off with a quote I have used before in these debates, from somebody who I highly admire, Chief Arvol Looking Horse of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota nations, from America, where he quite clearly states:
Mother Earth is a source of life, not a resource.
And it is our duty, through this Report and the Chief Minister’s commitment, to get that 4735 message into every household in the Isle of Man, every man, woman and child to get what Chief Arvol is actually saying and hinting at there with his view on world destruction at the minute, pollution, climate change, global warming and all the rest of it. I want to set the scene for my contribution, Eaghtyrane, and I will re-quote Sir David Attenborough as the Chief Minister did, and certainly his huge press headlines the other day 4740 that we are at a crisis moment. That is very true, and whoever else in their contributions just now mentioned that the scientific community are at one that climate change is upon us, global warming is upon us and all the other associated issues: there is no divergence of thought on that. The scientific facts and evidence are there.
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So we come to the Isle of Man situation, we come to the Chief Minister’s climate initiative, 4745 we come to Prof. Curran’s Report, we come to the Tynwald Committee who have looked at it and Hon. Member, Mrs Poole-Wilson has spoken eloquently on the matter. We must fully support this initiative and the full commitment behind it, which has to be applauded, and move forward as Prof. Curran suggests in a staged managed approach, what is achievable and then look at the more difficult issues after. Very good, excellent, I fully support that. 4750 What I would like to say, Eaghtyrane, just speaking more broadly, and I have spoken to Prof. Curran many times, if there are aspects that we can tackle relatively cheaply that for the Isle of Man will make quite a large impact into reducing our carbon emissions and helping us go carbon neutral – I am not quite happy with the phrase ‘carbon neutral’ I would like to see zero carbon emissions ultimately. You can play around with carbon neutral and balance it off at times 4755 and it is not quite as solid as zero. Anyway, we are aiming for that, but I will put that on record – there are an innumerable amount of actions that can be taken locally. The first and foremost I think, and the biggest challenge, and it has been mentioned already, Eaghtyrane, is changing our own personal behaviours. What we do at home once we go inside and shut the front door. 4760 We all say we are committed to doing things that will assist in reducing the effects of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, we all think climate change is terrible, but what happens when we go home of a night? That is the thing. And that is where personal family behaviours that people are used to doing for years and years has to be changed. We have to change the behaviour. People have to get used to doing things in a different way. 4765 I am particularly interested in evidence presented to me with regard to the likes of leaving heating on when people go to work, leaving heating on when people go on holidays, unnecessary use of washing machines, changing clothes every two or three hours and putting different outfits on or whatever suits. I have got it all written down. I cannot give confidences away, but there is a society behaviour pattern that we have become used to and our comfort 4770 zones. Not everyone is like that but there are many who are. Even changing that behaviour – turn the central heating off or whatever type of heating you have off before, when you go to work or when you go on holiday – I mean, that is a no-brainer, but it happens. I walk down Strand Street of a Saturday afternoon; most of the shops have their heating going full blast and all the doors jacked open. Now, what is that about? And how long have we 4775 been going on about climate change? You go up Victoria Street and the taxi rank; they are all running, all the engines running. Woodbourne Road, when I come to work at half seven, sevenish, some lorries and delivery vans are there on the Terrace and they are there for 15 or 20 minutes, engines running. Why would you leave an engine running when you are hopping in and out doing a delivery? What is the 4780 point in that? Fifty, 60 or 70 years ago, when we had the old Morris vans going around, yes, you had to keep them warmed up but things have moved on. Why are we doing that? It happens with buses too. You can see the buses round at the bus station and elsewhere – empty buses with engines running or empty buses with no drivers in parked up with engines running. What is that all about? 4785 Why do parents drop children off or wait for children at schools, youth clubs or elsewhere that I have noticed, they leave their car engines running and that could be five or 10 minutes while they wait for their children to come? What is that all about? So, as part of my little initiative here tonight, Eaghtyrane, I think what we need in the middle of all this is a lot of education, which I think Prof. Curran has hinted at. But I also think we need 4790 somebody to go out who has got perhaps … and it may come to that because if people will not take notice quickly enough we will be forced into doing things and we will have to put notices on cars or drivers to be cautioned, ‘Turn your engine off. Why have you got it running, what is the point in that?’ If they are still using petrol engines, I mean, obviously we are moving to electric but I am talking about now. Loads of things we could do to reduce our carbon footprint and 4795 other pollutants, carbon monoxide, and help the health of our local areas, such as around Lord ______916 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Street and Quarterbridge and elsewhere, by the reduction of pollution from vehicle exhausts etc. The other thing I wanted to touch upon, Eaghtyrane; reinstatement of our hill land bogs. That is an easy win-win thing to do. One of the biggest carbon sinks in the Isle of Man and over the 4800 past years, as I have been warning here for a long time, we are losing our habitat bit by bit, year by year by year. Our heather bogs are well known internationally, not just for the habitat, but as a carbon sink, and we have been losing them to drainage and what I would call environmental vandalism with some landowners. I will not name the area I am thinking of in particular but it is well known to Government authorities, and we are going to have to reinstate our carbon sinks. 4805 Our blanket bog, if we have got any left, is miniscule now and I am not making a criticism with regard to reporting the hard work, Eaghtyrane, I fully appreciate that, but these are things we can do now. The Chief Minister has started it with tree planting, and we need more of it. So there are loads of practical, common-sense, simple things that we can do that will not bite into the 4810 allocation for this project too much and we can have win-win, win-win situations. On a final note, Eaghtyrane, I have written an extensive research paper that I supplied to the MUA on water conservation issues and that is an issue as we go along, which will become bigger and bigger because we are getting warmer, drier summers predominantly. We only have to think back a year or so ago when the Tholt y Will Reservoir was right down, and it was noticed by 4815 authorities that really we need to have an action plan in the background of this, some strategic thinking going forward because we do need to look at water supplies as well, in the background, in the national interest. As far as the Report goes, Eaghtyrane, obviously we have got to move forward in a more sustainable way, and I fully support the commentary by the Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins, in that 4820 and some of the comments that Mr Hooper has made too. They are all valid in what we can do. They are not out of the grasp of our small nation. But what we can ultimately do, if we keep the commitment the Chief Minister is pushing forward with, we can become an example to other nations and ultimately we could become carbon neutral and put political pressure on other nations by virtue of what we have achieved 4825 and push them along in the same vein. And some people may say, ‘Ah, Henderson is talking rubbish there! How can a small island make any such effect?’ Well, I can tell you, Eaghtyrane, that there have been certain debates in Tynwald where we have achieved something – I will not go into it, I have been associated with it – and it has caused questions in other parliaments and it has caused changes to their policy within two or three months of what we did here. So do not be 4830 fooled, Hon. Members, we can make a difference and we can set an example and we can get other people to look at our example, so I think it is a very important point there. Gura mie eu.
The President: Now, Hon. Members, the debate thus far, everyone has been pretty fully 4835 supportive of the motion. I have another seven Members that wish to speak, and I would ask that we are not unduly repetitive. At this point, we shall take a break and resume at 10 minutes to six.
The Court adjourned at 5.21 p.m. and resumed at 5.51 p.m.
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Climate Change Action Plan – Prof. Curran’s Report; Government commitments – Debate continued – Motion carried
The President: Now, Hon. Members, we resume our debate on Item 4. I call the Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Harmer. 4840 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. I would like, first of all, to add my thanks to Prof. Curran and the cross-Government analytical team for all the hard work that has been done to complete the Impact Report in a very short timescale. 4845 Like many of our colleagues today, I firmly believe the Action Plan establishes a very clear commitment and road map to tackle the climate emergency facing the planet and to preserve and protect our Island for future generations. I am personally very delighted with the scale and level of undertakings that have been agreed by the Council of Ministers, and sincerely hope they are supported by this Hon. Court today. 4850 I have been told that these commitments were reported as ‘an impressive pledge which puts COP 25 to shame’ by international geologist Dr David Quirk at his presentation on how the Isle of Man might be carbon neutral, at the Mountain View Innovation Centre, organised by UCM. I think you will agree that such comment is indicative of the scale and ambition of the Action Plan. As the previous speakers have just been remarking, I suddenly thought it is not really an action 4855 plan, it is an action journey, because one of the key aspects of what Prof. Curran was dealing with was that this will be adapted, this will change, as we need to change. Again, I am delighted that should this plan be approved by this Hon. Court today, we – all of us, and my Department – will be able to lead by example by progressing a number of actions to reduce our carbon emissions. But it will mean changes to the way we live and work. Simple 4860 things to do with parking and all those other issues will be changes we will have to accept. Buildings are a key one. The first of these actions relates to the Government’s estate. Energy use in buildings is the biggest single contributor to the Island’s emissions, amounting to 35% of the total. Heating buildings with systems that burn fossil fuels is overwhelmingly the largest single factor contributing to that 35%. 4865 In the next year I will be taking forward a number of immediate actions to increase energy efficiency within the Government estate, such as using technology to improve control and monitoring systems. This initial phase will be followed by a comprehensive review of the estate to create a strategic plan to reduce emissions and increase opportunities for carbon sequestration. In addition, all new housing and local authority housing will move into higher 4870 standards, such as, in particular, the silver standard. Transport is another high emissions sector at 19% of the Island’s total emissions, and my Department has responsibilities for a number of Government services within that sector. We will be ordering the first hybrid buses on the Island in the forthcoming financial year and also hope to be able to trial a fully electric bus later this year. These ongoing trials will enable us to fully 4875 understand the opportunities and constraints of a low-emission public transport system and ensure that the evolution of Bus Vannin meets our social and economic needs. In conjunction with the trials of low-emission vehicles, we will also be looking to create a strategy to further promote public transport and the linkages between public transport, active travel and other connected policies such as car parking, and in particular looking at … I take the 4880 point that the Hon. Member for Middle discussed about places and people, and this will need smarter movement, integrated travel and looking at that much more seriously. I think it is a very important point. This will build upon the work that my Department led last year, in partnership with colleagues from Health and the Department of Education, Sport and Culture, to develop an ______918 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
4885 Active Travel Strategy which will also consider actions across the different areas of the Island to encourage active travel. Supporting the Active Travel Strategy, we will develop and implement plans to install cycle racks and showers in all public buildings, where suitable. Fleet is another area. The Action Plan includes a policy requirement to move the Government’s vehicle fleet to electric, wherever possible. As well as reducing the Government’s 4890 contribution to carbon emissions, it is hoped that seeing Government-branded electric cars and vans on the Island’s roads will raise public awareness and confidence in electric vehicle technology. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Another way we will be supporting public confidence in electric vehicles is that my Department will be working in support of the MUA to create an all- Island electric vehicle charging network, addressing one of the key public market barriers for 4895 electric vehicles, regarding range and charging options. I think this is fundamentally the key issue to do. We talked about fair transition. Actually, people having availability of electric vehicles and being able to charge them at home is very important. Renewable energy is one of the most ambitious of the Action Plan’s commitments, but also the most significant. Without renewable energy we will not be able to make the transition to net 4900 zero emissions. My Department already has an agreement with a wind farm developer for a lease to develop an offshore wind farm off the east coast, and discussions on how this can be progressed continue. The new potential scenario that some or all of the wind power generation comes to the Isle of Man will bring some different opportunities and challenges, and I am hopeful that we 4905 will make further progress in 2020. I think one of the key things just to re-emphasise is that infrastructure is not all … I am trying to find the right word … sexy. Sometimes you have to build the capacity, and we have to build the capacity of renewable energies in order to achieve those other things. So, sometimes the first action has to be to approve that capacity and increase that capacity – so that we can have air source heat pumps, so that we can have electric vehicles – 4910 because without improving that capacity we will not be able to deliver on those other things, and of course it also provides an economic opportunity. In closing, Mr President, Hon. Members, we are a Tynwald of action. This has been cross- Department. It has been said, the message is read loud and clear, but without cross-Department working together nothing will happen. I notice the difference, personally, from an action plan 4915 that was talked about in 2016. The difference now is that obviously you can have one Department saying what we should be doing, but without other Departments – the MUA and DoI – actually having it in their action plan to make it happen, it is not going to happen. We therefore have before us today a historic opportunity, one which can make a difference for our children and grandchildren. By making a commitment to zero emissions and potentially 4920 pollution, we seek to protect our environment and landscape for future generations. I hope that we are able to look back at this time and this decision with pride, recognising it as the moment when we recognised the urgency to act and to use our innovation and culture to address the climate emergency. Thank you. 4925 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. There is much to commend in Prof. Curran’s Report and in the response from the Council of 4930 Ministers. Who could have imagined eight months ago that we would move so swiftly to recognise the climate emergency and to identify actions needed to play our part in reducing carbon emissions? Tribute has to be paid to the hardworking Members of this Court and the Transformation Team of officers who enabled the independent Chair to compile the Report with its 4935 accompanying detailed appendices. In this I would like to associate myself with the comments made by the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, to applaud effective cross-Government ______919 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
working for a common goal. I am certain people went over and above, working very long hours; I hope it was rewarding. The onus now is on delivery – delivering a range of practical support to enable our 4940 community to embrace the changes needed for the future, the low carbon future. As Prof. Curran points out, even those who doubt the scientific evidence will have to adjust. The world is moving to electric vehicles and a more sustainable way of living. It is an economic imperative that the Isle of Man moves with it and that we develop the necessary infrastructure to achieve that. 4945 In supporting the majority of actions outlined in the Council of Ministers’ response to Prof. Curran’s Report, I have a number of queries. My main concern surrounds what is happening now. How will households be supported and directed to obtain the best advice, the best products needed to move to low-emission living? Who will help finance that, and what schemes will be put in place? Who will ensure the wave of proposed new-builds will comply with 4950 standards of air tightness, insulation and heating that will make them fit for the future? I would hope anyone considering purchasing a new home would demand the highest standards from their developer, but I worry that of the hundreds of homes planned for Ballasalla, Foxdale, Ramsey and Peel, many will need retrofitting in the future. What focus will the Chief Minister ensure is placed on working with developers and communities to ensure air source heat pumps, 4955 EV chargers, solar panels and other technology is included as standard in any or all new homes? I was pleased to see the reference to biodiversity net gain taken up by CoMin, but I wonder if in this initial phase Prof. Curran’s recommendations have been a little watered down, if some of the CoMin actions are a bit tentative. For instance, Prof. Curran called for a requirement for biodiversity net gain to all ecosystem services. CoMin will ‘work towards a requirement for 4960 biodiversity net gain’. It is not quite there but it is a big improvement to the current requirement for no biodiversity net loss. I suppose what I would like to see, in the six-monthly review if not today, is the Council of Ministers confirming whether they will be aiming for the higher ambition plan recommended by Prof. Curran. I also wish to know by when CoMin will build awareness and skills for contractors in energy 4965 efficiency and low carbon heating options and these are promoted to all householders to have the best technology accessible to them now. While there is a commitment that all Government buildings will be retrofitted to ensure energy conservation, plus an acceleration of EV charging points, where is the same drive to ensure all social housing is similarly upgraded? It concerns me to learn via media reports that more than £1 million is being invested in essential improvements 4970 to homes in Spring Valley that seem not to take residents into the modern age but barely bring them up to an adequate, acceptable standard of housing. Why would Treasury, according to media reports, require that that is undertaken as some kind of proof of business case for the replacement dwellings? Given the climate emergency and the cost of retrofitting required in the future, should the re-build option be looked at again now? 4975 Of course I support the direct of travel of the Action Plan and acknowledge the need for more research, but we already have a compelling case. It was galling to read only last month that in Wales, Neath Port Talbot Council has approved a zero carbon neighbourhood to be built, so 35 homes that will generate more energy than they consume. Why aren’t we insisting on more innovation in our developments now, especially on greenfield sites? The Isle of Man has been 4980 traa dy liooar, but we are hopefully catching up. Another area where I would like priority is in when we are going to address coal burning and the proliferation of wood-burning stoves. According to the American Lung Association on 3rd September 2019, wood-burning stoves produce harmful toxins that can damage your lungs and increase the risk of cancer, heart disease and premature death. The fumes from wood- 4985 burning stoves are especially dangerous if you have a respiratory condition, such as asthma. Michael Gove, the Environment Secretary in August 2018, confirmed plans to ban the sale of the most-polluting fuels for domestic wood burners in an attempt to cut harmful emissions. Restrictions are also expected to be placed on the sale of wet wood, particularly in urban areas – ______920 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
but not in the Isle of Man, as far as I can tell. Earlier this month I noticed another two planning 4990 applications were listed for new wood-burner flues to be put up in Ramsey. If there is the intention to consider addressing this, we need a policy to be indicated before people invest in such home improvements. Similar to banning the installation of oil boilers by 2025, we need a clear policy signalled to residents to enable and inspire them to consider the best low emissions solutions to improve 4995 their homes and all our environment. Similarly, I welcome the ban on peat extraction and the drive to more tree planting, but surely achieving net zero should have a goal to ban the import of alternative sources of peat, to encourage the uptake of smokeless fuel, and when it comes to planting trees ensure they avoid the breakdown of plastic sapling shields that pollute the environment with micro-plastics for 5000 generations. I am pleased with the target of achieving 75% of our energy generation from renewables by 2035 and I look forward to learning how that will be delivered. Indeed, I hope that more than 75% could be generated before 2035. Alongside that, I welcome Prof. Curran’s emphasis on the need for SuDS (sustainable 5005 drainage systems) to be considered in the planning system and building regulations. SuDS – sustainable management of surface water – are of extreme interest in Garff, especially following the most recent Laxey flood in October last year. It is a shame that more appropriate building standards are not more itemised in this Action Plan and I would like to ask the Chief Minister to give reassurance that the report of the independent review of the Laxey flood, and indeed any 5010 ongoing work in the area by DoI and MUA, will be joined up and perhaps see inclusion after the first six months review in better planning policies in managing surface run-off in new developments but also in existing communities. In supporting the Action Plan, I would like the Chief Minister to confirm his Government’s commitment to resourcing it as necessary, in staff and finances, in order that real change can be 5015 delivered. While Government action is signalled in terms of ordering a new Steam Packet vessel that allows transition to alternative fuel, the burden on individuals must be considered a priority. We must not add to the 10% identified to be currently in fuel poverty. This action plan must deliver a sustainable future for everyone, even if it means tackling unpopular silos, including of local government for instance to optimise kerbside collection, to reduce costs and 5020 increase recycling, something Prof. Curran identified. Government must be joined up as never before, both local and central, and bring communities along to a better future. I hope the momentum continues to see targets set and communities engaged to deliver a greener, healthier, low carbon future for this Island. The report is only the start. The hard work must continue if we are to see Government deliver on its climate action promises. 5025 In terms of the second part of the motion, regarding the transformation board and establishment of a transformation fund, I would like the Chief Minister to confirm it will fully engage and utilise the skills and enthusiasm of local people who have the relevant knowledge and expertise. I fully support the aim to achieve, as the Chief Minister said, long-lasting significant and 5030 positive changes to achieve net zero emissions and to leave no one behind, but I would wish to see clarity on the actions to be undertaken and the targets Government will set for itself in the short and long term to achieve carbon neutrality while talking the community along. What will the Chief Minister regard as success? There must be no loss of momentum to ensure our green hills by the sea will be maintained and indeed enhanced for future generations. 5035 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska.
Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President.
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5040 I am pleased to be able to support the Action Plan and the Report today and I would hope that in due course we will be able to aspire to the ambitious route – I think this is vitally important – and that we also take on board the recommendations for matters which can be addressed now in the coming year and drilling down into more research and detail for what we can achieve in the months and years to come. 5045 One of the main matters that is of interest to me is residential buildings. We all have to occupy our residential buildings. They are a major contributor to our carbon count and the contribution they have been making has been rising steadily over the last 30 years, so it will be very important that we address how we can deal with the carbon emissions, and especially from traditional buildings. The Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, was despairing that we might 5050 not be able to address issues that we face with traditional buildings and I would ask him not to despair. I think there will be ways of going forward if we engage with and take the opportunities that our industries such as the building industry and agriculture … There will be positives there that may be able to contribute to traditional ways of insulating and adapting our existing buildings. 5055 On this matter it is quite heartening that … I chair the Building Conservation Forum and at our last meeting it became evident that we were probably going to host a traditional buildings weekend in May. In the short space of time since that last meeting in the autumn we are now looking at inviting keynote speakers who can actually look at these topics – traditional insulation – and how we might, on Island, look at the resources that might be available to us and 5060 not have to bring materials in from outside but have the recirculating economy, that we could actually engage with industry and look at opportunities on Island. I know there will be people out there who have their own businesses and are listening to this debate and thinking, ‘What’s going to happy to my business?’ So it is vitally important that we can educate and bring our community along with us and try … Where one aspect of building might go out of the window, 5065 that is not so carbon friendly, another might come in and replace it, and we have got to encourage our community to go along that kind of pathway. I agree with the Hon. Member for Middle again that we should not be looking at just building on greenfield sites; we should really focus on how we can adapt our existing buildings. This is what we are signing up to. As the Chief Minister said, this goes across the whole of Government 5070 and it will be built into not just our businesses but education. Our young people partly brought this to the notice of this Hon. Court and made us sit up and take notice, and I thank them for that again. We owe it to our young people and the community going forward that we actually do take this one step at a time. I do commend Prof. Curran and his team, and the analytical team, who have worked at a very 5075 expeditious rate, which I think is unprecedented. I would also suggest that Government needs to lead by example when it looks at its own portfolio of buildings and those that might be coming forward for new construction. We need to adopt the highest possible and achievable and affordable new-build approaches that can be addressed at this time. 5080 On that, I think I will finish, but I do thank the team and I will be supporting this proposal today. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford. 5085 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. You will be relieved to know that I do not intend to make a long intervention on this Item, as a lot has already been said, and I am fully supportive of Prof. Curran’s Report and the approach being taken in the action plan.
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5090 I fully welcome the Report from Prof. Curran, Mr President. In fact, I was actually going to say it was a breath of fresh air, but then thought better of it. (Interjection) I also welcome the financial commitments that Treasury has given in regard to this. It is important, Mr President, that we have a well-defined plan of action in order to move this forward, and one that is costed and affordable. I therefore commend the approach that is being 5095 recommended here today, which I believe sets out a viable route map that is both realistic and achievable. Now, I know there have been some outside this Hon. Court that I have seen are questioning if change is really necessary, what impact can an island our size possibly have on the wider global significance of climate change, and should we really be spending and committing future money 5100 to this with all the other issues that we have on our agenda? What I would say to that, Mr President, is that I can think of nothing more worth spending money on than ensuring the future environment for our children and future generations. Yes, in the global scheme of things, even if as an Island we are at net zero, the impact we have would be negligible overall, but that does not mean it is not the right thing to do. Yes, we 5105 could take the view of what impact can we really make? But imagine if every nation did that, Mr President, took the attitude that well, if they are not doing it then we are not either. We have a responsibility and I welcome the fact that as a Government and a parliament we are taking this seriously and looking at what we can do to assist the global fight against climate change. 5110 We should also recognise, Mr President, that our Island is a biosphere in its own right, the only entire nation to hold that status. Therefore it is only right that we do everything that we can to preserve our natural environment. Sometimes living here and seeing the natural beauty of our Island day in, day out, it can be very easy to take it for granted, particularly when you look around the globe at the tragedies and 5115 devastations that some parts of our planet are currently experiencing. It is something we should never take for granted, Mr President. One of the things I particularly welcome is the way that this is being delivered in a financially prudent way, broken down into achievable phases. This would have been very easy, Mr President, simply to have rushed the fences and said, ‘Yes, we will do all that is required and 5120 we will do it now!’, without looking at the way it is going to be funded and laying out the options as to where that funding is going to have to come from. I think that the Government response is open and honest about the challenges both financially and economically, and lays them out in a realistic way. I also welcome the establishment of the Climate Change Transformation Board to oversee 5125 the actions being taken. Again, this is something that I think shows this is being treated with the seriousness it deserves. So in closing, Mr President, the motion has my full support and I think no better message could come out of this Hon. Court today than this proposal to be supported unanimously.
5130 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. No speech from me. I am very much in a listening mode. Listening and learning. Just three comments in response to what I have heard of late: firstly from Hon. Member for Ramsey, 5135 Dr Allinson as Chair of MU. I was a bit surprised by the limited ambition with regard to the number of charging points: 30 a year. I must have got that wrong. Surely with an island of our size and the ability to go almost anywhere and back in an electric car, the opportunities here are disproportionately advantageous compared to other places. Then if we were a lot more ambitious with our charging point proposals, it would encourage an awful lot more people to 5140 feel confident enough to make that transfer. The Hon. Member is nodding.
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So we will move on to a point Mr Shimmins, the Member for Middle made, about insulating older properties. I heard with interest the Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, the Minister’s comments about, ‘Yes, we will work on the public sector housing.’ Well, there really is this massive challenge to get older properties in the private sector, where the income earners in that 5145 home are of limited means. I think the sooner we can come up with some pretty good schemes to get that going … As an example – I do not know, off the top of my head – one would think that if there was some sort of loan scheme set up as a trial run with a no repayment period for a year or so, followed by an assessment of that property that ensures that the repayments of the loan, when combined with the energy expenditure thereafter, were less than they otherwise 5150 would spend if they just had the building as it is, then I think there is an opportunity to both do that and promote the idea and get people talking in the newspapers about, ‘Look how it worked for me.’ (A Member: Hear, hear.) Just out of interest, in the summer I thought I would reinsulate my own home. I did it myself and did it in the summer and was waiting to see what happened once the winter came. I was 5155 gobsmacked because we are right down to literally spot heating and heating on cold days, of which we have not had very many, have we? So that was a bit of a shock to me. My third and final point – because I do not need to say we will support this Report, because it is a no-brainer – it is something that Prof. Curran said about businesses and it was mentioned by the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska. That is that there is still some work to do to align 5160 business needs in relation to conversions and what we might do. I just want that to go on Hansard as a point of focus and concern. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker. 5165 Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. Again, I will try and keep this brief. Clearly a lot has been said already and I am not going to repeat that. I just want to draw out a couple of key points that I do not think have been raised so far. The first is that the language is all about ‘climate emergency’ and Prof. Curran’s Report very 5170 clearly says that actually there is an ecological emergency, not just a climate emergency. We need to take hold of that point. He identifies that that relates to habitats, ecosystems and species. I really do think that in the next few months, as this starts to turn into action and the next update comes before this Hon. Court, we need to broaden our language out so that we are talking about those things which is so important to not just our nature, as the Hon. Member of 5175 Council, Mr Henderson has said, but the actual quality of our life, because nature does play such a part in enhancing our lives. It is absolutely clear that we need to engage with this. I know there are people out there who do not necessarily buy into the climate change agenda, but from an international, reputational point of view, from an intergenerational fairness point of view, and from what sort of legacy we 5180 leave if we ignore it – for all those reasons – we have to get on with this and have to engage with it, even though we are a small player in a big wide world. I do agree it will bring opportunities; but there is a slightly cautionary note. We need to make sure that the Island as a whole is sustainable both socially and economically, as well as sustainable in terms of the climate and our ecology. It needs a balanced approach and that I 5185 think is where some of the nuances around the approach will come in and where we need to recognise that, in the actions that we take, there are consequences and they need to be considered. We cannot alienate swathes of our community by the fact that maybe they cannot afford an electric car or they cannot afford the investment into their own property. I would highlight again – I do not think the words have been drawn out in the debate – the 5190 Just Transition that Prof. Curran talks about is so important to us. We need not to lose sight of that as we move forward.
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Equally, we need to ensure we do not fall into traps that some others may fall into, in terms of managing the numbers. It has been referred to that other jurisdictions benefit from electricity being imported. Personally, nuclear energy brings some issues, which is what the Channel 5195 Islands use, but also it would not be right for us to import electricity from the UK if it has been generated by emissions that are not clean, even though they would not count to our total of carbon emissions. So we need to be aware that people do … [Inaudible] this thing, we need to do this honestly and with integrity. We need to take personal responsibility for this. Dr Allinson earlier said that Government 5200 cannot do everything – it was in a different context but it cannot do everything here. We are a community of 85,000 people and it is about the choices that we make. It is about do we drive or do we take public transport? Do we turn the central heating up or do we stick another sweater on? It is those sorts of choices that are down to us as individuals. Actually, we all have to take responsibility for that, but within it, we do need this holistic approach which Prof. Curran’s 5205 Report and the Council of Ministers’ response has laid out before us. It needs to be an approach that does both what Mr Shimmins said, learns from the experience elsewhere, but what Mr Hooper echoed, we need to apply it to our Island situation. We need the best of both worlds. The Transformation Board and the funding proposal will allow the momentum that is being built up at real speed to continue. I believe that this will be successful. I am very encouraged by 5210 what I have seen so far. I think there are some very interesting concepts in here. I like the managed Strategic Investment Fund concepts as well, which is mentioned by Prof. Curran. It chimes with some of the work that was done in other contexts around how we might move the Island forward. I think that is worthy of further exploration. Finally, we have started the journey, we need to keep moving forward, but as Prof. Curran 5215 says, the Action Plan is only as good as its delivery, and I look forward to seeing some really good delivery on this. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan. 5220 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I am not sure if this has come up so far, but actually I would like to thank the Council of Ministers for responding to this and particularly to thank Mr Peake for bringing forward the motion to get an independent person involved. I think it absolutely created the sense of urgency 5225 that was required. I would also like to say quite simply thanks for listening because there are a lot of things that I have found not just in Prof. Curran’s Report, but also in the Council of Ministers’ response that are things that have been said maybe in Member presentations, in this place, via email – concerns about how funding would be approached for this, concerns about how things were not 5230 being addressed within the approach to date within individual Departments. I could go through and list some of those now, but actually there would be a little bit too many of them to take the time to do, so I am really encouraged. So thank you for responding and for the urgency. It is really good news. There were a few points that struck me that I do not think others have mentioned so far. 5235 Firstly I think that the approach that will be demanded to do with Active Travel and also how we deal with streets and towns is really sharply brought into focus by what we need to do here. So we are going to have to really step things up, (Mr Shimmins: Hear, hear.) but because we already have the Active Travel Strategy and because we have things like development agencies being talked about and things like that, we are in a good place and now is even more of a reason 5240 for everybody who is involved to step it up in that regard, because actually it is quite a positive thing. If you look at what is happening elsewhere and I do take an interest in these things, people are getting inspired and truly excited about how they are going to change the places where they ______925 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
live and work. There are just a few things I would like to mention because I do not think we hear 5245 people talk about these things over here. So in plenty of towns and cities throughout the world people are experimenting with what they are doing with the streets in the towns to see if there is a better way just simply to move people. There are crazy ideas out there, like people having … I am talking about big cities – parts of London will embrace a car-free day in September. There are people advocating for school 5250 streets and safer play streets. Now, these sound like ideas that just might be promotional – that sort of thing, and a bit of advocacy – but the point is that it is really leading to a rethink of urban and community design that is based on celebrating the aspiration of having clean air and streets that are better places to live and to work and to simply move around. Actually, I think that is quite exciting. And it does 5255 not need to be about huge projects. These things are trialled out – tactically trialling these things out – to see how the local communities respond, and that is important because all this is meaningless unless people can start to feel motivated to doing this sort of stuff themselves. That is why I really like the idea of the citizen’s panel that was mentioned in Prof. Curran’s Report. I am not sure if that idea will be taken forward or not, but it really made sense to do 5260 with the sounding out with citizens and with society about how we are moving forward, along the lines of the principles of a Just Transition, because not everybody is going to be on board with this. People need to feel engaged and they need reasons to believe. So I like that idea from an external scrutiny point of view and just on a governance and community engagement side of things. 5265 Something that has been mentioned to me is about co-ordination with local authorities, because I think that a lot of this stuff cannot all just be Government. It needs to be Government, it needs to be people, it needs to be other decision-makers. So it has been suggested to me that there might need to be a bit of a steer from Government as to how local authority should engage in tackling climate change and a guide for perhaps how local authorities might work 5270 together. A further point: where I was less impressed was I think in Prof. Curran’s Report, there was quite a lot of talk to do with food and agriculture. I am not really sure that that came out so much in the Council of Ministers’ response, but perhaps that is yet to come. I think it was specifically mentioned about looking at the current schemes in place: the Agricultural 5275 Development Scheme, a revision was suggested on that. I am not sure but that may have been to do with growing more produce – a broader range of produce – locally and with that, I am thinking also about we had a presentation by some people a few weeks ago that were talking about using technology, just kind of shaping up some of the stuff that is done there. So in Prof. Curran’s Report, there is some really interesting stuff about how we might make sure that 5280 we have got an improved set-up to do with agriculture, and how it would be more sustainable and meeting more of the Island’s needs, instead of importing things. I was going to talk about the finance and the need for focus and costed options on that, but I think Minister Ashford has covered the main things that I wanted to say. I think that is it. But thank you. Let’s be inspired and let’s go forward. 5285 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Boot.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. 5290 First of all, I would like to thank my department officers and everyone across Government who has been involved in this project – call it what you will – preparation of an Action Plan. It has been truly cross-governmental. That is a good thing. It proves that we do not work in silos and certainly demonstrates that to the public: when we want to, we can produce the goods. Climate change has long been a concern of my Department. It is a challenge which impacts 5295 on all aspects of our work and I strongly endorse the Chief Minister’s recognition of the climate ______926 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
crisis and his commitment to take urgent action. This is not the first step towards climate action that the Isle of Man has taken, but it is undoubtedly the most important. Climate change strategy in 2016 acknowledged the need to act and set a target for an 80% reduction of emissions by 2050. Some initiatives to reduce emissions have been taken since 5300 then, including measures to increase energy efficiency, promote low carbon heating options, change the way we travel, and recently in much-improved building regulations. However, we are now clear that a much bolder approach is urgently needed in light of updated scientific advice and the increasing concerns of the public about the future of our communities locally and internationally. In the Isle of Man Government Action Plan, we make a 5305 clear commitment to put mechanism, in place to reach net zero emissions. We are committed to introduce a Climate Change Bill later this year, which will establish a statutory requirement to work towards net zero greenhouse gas emissions and a clear process to require climate action plans and provide powers to ensure that they are delivered. In acknowledging that this is an environmental and social challenge beyond anything we have 5310 ever faced before, we will be reviewing policies in all areas of Government and will work to align our priorities to delivering our net zero emissions commitment. The commitment for a fund of £10 million provides a firm initial commitment to the high level of ongoing funding that will be required to deliver our commitments. The commitment to establish a Climate Change Transformation Board to steer the 5315 programme will ensure the highest level of co-operation and support for the delivery of the Climate Change Action Plan across Government. Delivery of this work will not be the responsibility of a single Department, but a collective commitment that will require a new approach to the challenge. The 60 actions in the plan provide an ambitious first phase towards reaching net zero and this 5320 ambition has been endorsed by our independent Chair, Prof. James Curran and other climate change commentators, since it has been released to the public. I reference Dr David Quirk’s presentation, his UCM lecture last week. This plan is focused on delivering rapid action. It firmly commits to delivering significant emissions, reducing measures and beginning a long-term programme of carbon sequestration that will provide our safety net for the inevitable small 5325 proportion of the unavoidable emissions that will continue. By planting woodland restoring and enhancing our peat lands and exploring the capacity to utilise a newly recognised value of our seas in storing blue carbon, we will increase our capacity to lock carbon into our natural ecosystems. I believe we can develop and demonstrate global leadership in how we manage the carbon sequestration in our marine areas. In doing this, we 5330 can also enhance biodiversity and provide a wide range of other ecosystem services. Resilient ecosystems will also improve our capacity to adapt to the changes that climate change will inevitably bring to the Island. As a Biosphere Reserve, we are already part of a global network of leaders working to balance a healthy environment with a thriving economy and a vibrant community and delivering 5335 our Action Plan effectively gives us another opportunity to lead. Our landscape has been shaped by our farmers and this sector has an important role to play going forward. We will build on the impressive engagement with the climate challenge that our agricultural sector has already begun. We recently revised our Agricultural Development Support Scheme and this is reflected in environmental benefit for the future going forward, and we will 5340 continue to work with the MNFU and other partners to better understand the opportunities available to reduce agricultural emissions through innovation, increased carbon sequestration through sustainable land management, and to explore opportunity for farms to generate energy and make other important contributions towards reducing emissions. We have also made a firm commitment to continued research to inform the next phase of 5345 the Climate Change Action Plan. Reducing emissions and increasing carbon sequestration rates in our landscape and sea are complex tasks that require a high level of research and an
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evidence-based approach. We do not understand the task ahead in terms of achieving our long- term goal – something that we will need to understand more fully in the future. As the Chief Minister has emphasised, we are under no illusion of the enormity of the task 5350 ahead, but in working towards our goal of net zero emissions by 2050, we are confident that by playing our responsible global role in reducing the impact of climate change we are helping to secure a future for our Island and for generations to come. This plan is a landmark first step towards a net zero society and we must work together to ensure that the current momentum is maintained to achieve real long-lasting changes that will benefit all of us as an internationally 5355 responsible nation. I have been very encouraged by the tone of the debate. It has all been positive. There are some good points raised, things that we can do in the future, and I hope that we will have unanimous support here today that will send out the right message to our community and also internationally. 5360 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Cannan.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, I welcome the Report from 5365 Prof. Curran and join with others in offering my congratulations to him and indeed all those who have worked so hard to produce this valuable and important document. This is indeed the issue of our time, but I am under no illusions that public support for action on this matter varies greatly – from those, I would suggest, who are outright sceptics, to hard- core demand for action, literally – irrespective of the consequences or acknowledgement of the 5370 realities and practicalities of delivery. My view, and it is my view, is that perspectives on this whole issue vary greatly, but it is unusual not to speak to a constituent who does not have a view on this subject. There are, Mr President, questions and doubts: ‘Can we really make a difference?’; ‘It is just normal weather patterns’; ‘We can’t afford the level of expenditure set out’; ‘Government’s just looking to raise taxes and punish us’; ‘This is now about big industry 5375 and commerce’; ‘How can I afford an electric car?’; ‘My job’s in oil and petroleum’; ‘What’s the future for my business?’; ‘What’s going to happen, for example, to agriculture?’ And why not, Mr President; why shouldn’t these doubts exist? Surely it is entirely understandable that people should hold these views on our Island. It is particularly understandable going outside what I suggest is the Tynwald bubble, when you get out into the 5380 real world, given that this major issue has not really received a full public mandate at the ballot box. Few, if any, of the manifestos that are currently in existence actually discuss this matter in any great detail, and certainly I have no evidence that matters such as onshore wind farms, electrification, retrofitting, the cost implications of such, paying for it or paying methodology have been set out for public approval in manifestos. 5385 I raise this issue and these matters for a number of reasons: firstly, because I believe that there is an absolute need for engagement and consultation as we move through this process; secondly, that clear and understandable explanation, and reasoning too, and the impacts of decisions should be communicated properly and thoroughly to the public; and thirdly, the approach to financing will need to be measured and practical. I will explain that further, but it is 5390 important that those who believe significant accumulation of debt or increased spending are funded through taxation get their mandate at the ballot box. It is seriously not that far away. My final key point here is that this will not work if there is not room for discussion, debate and listening. There are too many influences, particularly outside Tynwald, who are simply not prepared to listen to alternative suggestions, understand people’s differing viewpoints, and 5395 simply shout down the opposing view. We cannot afford to have a ‘them and us’ approach to this because it simply will not work. We must try and go forward, as much as possible, as a collective.
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Whilst I am on the subject of viewpoints, I am particularly pleased that Prof. Curran’s emphasis that this is a live document, a document that needs regular review and regular update 5400 and performance reviews, has been put forward. It certainly provides the framework and platform for change, but the mechanisms for that achievement are not necessarily set in stone. To that extent it is important that within our consideration and moving forward in this there is scope for unorthodox thinking and genuine consideration of ideas that may seem to be outside societal norms. Some form of think tank or advanced thinking unit should be considered 5405 (A Member: Hear, hear.) – a unit, perhaps, for mad ideas. (Laughter) And I know there are certainly a few in here who may qualify to chair this! Perhaps this particular unit could seriously answer questions such as do we need cars on the Island; should we build an electric transit system, for example something similar maybe to the transit that runs between the terminals at Gatwick Airport; should we experiment with hydrogen; how do we experiment with hydrogen? 5410 We could draw on local expertise and experience to form part of this, people with the skills in engineering or science to look and advise perhaps on some of these issues. We should be open to new opportunities and ideas because the platform is potentially here for us to do that and to step outside the norm. So I would advise that when we consider this and move forward, dismissal out of hand of radical ideas or potential solutions should not happen and in fact should 5415 be given some serious thought. Turning more directly to financing, I believe the points that we have set out in the Council of Ministers’ response to be entirely appropriate when considering funding. We are allocating a total of £10 million to start this process, £5 million of which will be in capital allowance and capital funding, and £5 million which will be in a fund for Government to be able to utilise to 5420 approach and tackle the issue, but we need to fully understand in more detail the roadmap and the goals before we allocate a specific funding plan. Of course Prof. Curran sets out somewhere between £13 million and £25 million of public funds as required to deliver the plan. As Hon. Members know, we do not have a magic pot of money and budgets are tight. Nevertheless, it is my hope that it is possible to undertake this project within our existing 5425 financial framework. But in order, of course, to make this judgement fully, one needs to understand objectives and timescales in more detail, which is what is going to happen; clearly, the greater the speed and the cost the greater the pressure on the budgets. Of course we should consider that some of this money is not all about revenue but some of it will come from capital as well and borrowing may be feasible, but this on the whole should only be for capital projects 5430 or in such scenarios where there is an accompanying commercial business plan for repayment. Of course some of these projects’ requirements carry straightforward commercial elements to them. Core and central to this will be the Manx Utilities Authority, who can effectively recover costs either directly from the consumer or through their increased profitability as we move forward. 5435 I do not underestimate meeting our commitments has a financial cost and this cost will be felt at some point by residents. That is why in adopting a progressive approach at this stage we should also be pragmatic. Progressive pragmatics will take this through successfully. And of course no contribution from me would be complete without discussing the benefits and opportunities that there could be for us. These could be manifold. Our expenditure will 5440 create jobs. It will create opportunities, people can improve their lives. They can live in warmer houses. We can have cleaner air. We could have new business opportunities. And we could have secure energy supplies. But do not underestimate the challenge. It will come both politically and financially. What we need is a clear, prioritised plan in place, and let’s try to move forward collectively to achieve the best possible outcome for this Island. 5445 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake.
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5450 Mr Peake: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Chief Minister for bringing this motion here today. I think it shows the importance and the gravity of the situation. I was pleased when I first met Prof. Curran. He could see perhaps one of the things that we could not see here. Someone coming in from the outside could see how rich the Isle of Man is in 5455 natural resources, how we are surrounded by natural resources that we can tap into and that could be our future, that can help society and can help people move out of fuel poverty, help people heat their homes, tapping into those natural resources – the sea, the wind, the rivers. Excellent. I would like to thank the analytical team. Mrs Poole-Wilson and I have spent some time with 5460 them and they have really demonstrated how departmental officers, Government workers, can work together as a team and actually produce a body of work that will be referred to for years to come. It has got the support of local pressure groups; they have actually said to me how impressed they are with the body of work that has been produced, so I would like to pass on their thanks. Particularly if I could just point out one name from all the officers, and that is 5465 Dr Fiona Gell, I think she has done a great job. She was a great conduit with all the groups, with the Professor and the Department, so I would like to thank her personally. I did come across a few words that were published on 31st December that said:
While our contribution to worldwide emissions is small, we have a unique opportunity, as a small jurisdiction, to show global leadership and help chart the course to a more sustainable future.
I thought they were great. That was Jersey’s Post on 31st December, so we are not alone in this and I think we should take comfort from that. 5470 There is a lot of fear around from people thinking that we are actually at the cutting edge and we are doing something that is not fully understood and there is a lot of risk. All these things Prof. Curran has put in the Action Plan are tried and tested. There is no risk to these. This is clean energy, this is a clean future, fewer particulates into the atmosphere, good air quality. What is not to like? The renewable from wind will be massive, a huge opportunity for us. The carbon 5475 sequestration in the woodlands, peatlands, rewilding and better management of the uplands, as Mr Henderson pointed out, these are all things tried and tested that we can use now. But I would just like to draw attention to the second part of the motion, which is the transformational board. That really is where Tynwald then has to show leadership. This is where we have to staff up, we have to get the right people on the board, we have to be more inclusive 5480 and we have to support the outcomes. As the Treasury Minister has just pointed out, that think tank, why not get the experts in that think tank? That is a great idea – establish an academic centre dedicated to the sustainability of the Isle of Man. Let’s attract some of the best minds to come and live in this beautiful Island and work together and learn from them. Mrs Poole-Wilson pointed that out before, a centre of excellence – absolutely fantastic. That is where we can show 5485 leadership. As Mrs Maska said, Government can show by example, take that first foot. That is exactly what we should do. The more we do in this area not only improves our environment but improves the environment of others around the world as well. Halfway around the world people are going to benefit. Halfway around the world in a few years’ time their small, low-level islands may be 5490 under water, so the more we do here the better it will be for everybody. Government cannot do it all itself, so it is about attracting private sector investment. Let’s work together with the private sector. Do not think that we can do it by ourselves. Just because we are Government we cannot do it all. Let’s reach out, make those partnerships, trust each other and get a better result. 5495 But what I am pleased about, Mr President, is how far Tynwald has come over the last few years and particularly over the last 12 months, so I would like to thank every Member of Tynwald for their perseverance, for listening and for their support today. Thank you very much.
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The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Barber.
5500 Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. I am not planning to speak for long. I just want to add my thanks to Prof. Curran and his team for the comprehensive piece of work before us today, but also recognise, as others have said, that absolutely our real obligation now is in terms of our delivery of that and holding that to account. 5505 I would also like to thank the Council of Ministers for their response, and I would also like to recognise Mrs Caine for initially tabling the motion and actually having the foresight to recognise not just a climate emergency but she also, in her first, initial motion, put an environment emergency. It is interesting that the Hon. Member Mr Baker has recognised today that actually we have 5510 come full circle here, and I think we have really pooled all of the experience from everyone in this Hon. Chamber to get to the right place. The challenge now lies firmly at our door in terms of delivery of this absolutely critical project, and for me that is including ensuring that sufficient funds are available, ensuring that we are tracking those actions and we are really making sure that everything is deliverable and 5515 measurable, and I think that we have a duty, very clearly, in that regard. My main comment really is around part (2) of the motion, and that is to echo what some other Members have said and to say that the Transformation Board, for me, needs to be representative of the wider stakeholder groups. It cannot just be one group of people; it needs to be mixed with public sector, private sector, third sector and the lobby groups who have so 5520 articulately explained exactly what needs to happen and some of their motivations. I think if we get the balance between all of those people we really will have the best minds to make sure that we really do achieve those goals that are set out within this Report and it does not become a Report that gathers dust on a shelf somewhere, because that simply cannot happen. We are all invested in this absolutely important journey that really is about the future of our Island. 5525 Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. I will be brief because a lot of the things have been 5530 covered. We are off to a very good start and we have come a long way in a short period of time. I believe it is vital we understand the importance of ensuring fairness – as Prof. Curran puts it, ‘ensure a Just Transition’. We must not put a high burden of climate change on the most vulnerable in our society – pensioners, low-income, working families. Consequently, it is vital we 5535 examine all possibilities, get it right and work out how we can assist these groups with more carrot and less stick. We must use this as an opportunity to address fuel poverty. Simple things we can do for consumers, like publishing in advance the new SAP requirements, advising people who are buying new properties well in advance, to insist that they comply with the right regulations, not just five years down the line the regulations that we are 5540 thinking of bringing in 10 years down the line. We must enable assistance with the installation of air source heat pumps and reduce the reliance on fossil fuel well before the boilers are going to be banned in 2025. We should move well before that. In the light of rapid technological advances, the importance of keeping our options open and being flexible and not locking down decisions too early is vital. We must be open to using an 5545 appropriate mix of technologies, for example taking notice of new battery technologies, electrovoltaic cells, hydrogen production from renewable energy and hydrogen usage, however that pans out.
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One thing off the wall that I would underline for the Treasury Minister is driverless vehicles. I have been grinding on this for a long time: electric vehicles on demand that are driverless and 5550 we can get rid of a lot of our cars that actually burn a lot of energy. So, let’s be enthusiastic, let’s get some off-the-wall ideas and let’s move forward, but above all let’s develop a transition strategy that is right for the Isle of Man, that is fair, equitable to all; and we must implement it and put it in place in practical terms, keeping this good momentum going. 5555 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. 5560 I believe we should do all that we can to mitigate climate change, but I have to voice my concerns about the costs. We are transforming the Health Service, there is the public sector pension legacy and teachers are threatening strike action over pay increases. These are just a few live issues that will cost millions to address. Of course the environmental cost could be far greater if we do not mitigate climate change, 5565 and I believe we can make a difference because action has to start somewhere, but there is no denying that climate change can only be tackled effectively on a global scale. We really cannot do this on our own. It is important that we do not spend time or money needlessly. Some cases in point have already been identified by Members who have already spoken before me. I will pick out another 5570 simple example: a single-use plastics ban sounds like an easy win and across Government it is achievable by implementing the policy. A general single-use plastics ban is in Appendix 2 of the information and it says research is required to quantify the carbon benefits of a plastics ban. That is a fact, but I would ask the Chief Minister to give assurance that research such as this is not for us to spend time or money on, because we are totally dependent on UK legislation. This 5575 is not just plastic bottles and plastic bags; it is far reaching. A simple example would be that supermarket refrigerator shelves would be empty; most of the products are in plastic containers. The local management of supermarkets and shops have no control over the containers that products are packaged in. A ban on single-use plastics could not possibly be solely operated in the Isle of Man: we import most of our food products. Therefore, the point I am making is that 5580 realistically we have to accept that many of the changes that need to take place are not achievable without action and legislation in other jurisdictions We have to make sure the actions that we take have the most positive impact not only on the environment but on people’s everyday lives. We have to bring people with us. The benefits need to be targeted and clearly defined. Funding will be required via grants or incentives to 5585 accomplish the changes required. Of course we do want to leave a better world for generations to come, but we do not want to leave them in insurmountable debt. That said, we cannot ignore our responsibilities. Action needs to be taken and we must allow that to take place now.
5590 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. Although I like the unit for mad ideas, and although I like the concept of a larger and fuller glass offered by my hon. friend from Ramsey, this is getting practical now. So I want to add some 5595 extra things into this debate about some practical issues referencing earlier contributions, whenever I remember, particularly. The first one is that the first practical thing we need to do is to take people with us. Nobody as yet has referenced the Social Attitudes Survey 2019 which asked people their views about renewable energy. That is the challenge we are up against, because let me tell you now what ______932 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
5600 people told us. They basically said most people agree that a green tariff should be offered to all domestic and commercial users, but slightly fewer than half of the respondents have an inclination towards making a green tariff compulsory. That is interesting, isn’t it? People seem to be keener if others have to pay for it rather than themselves. Social impact is absolutely crucial as a consequence because we need to take people with us practically, and as has been 5605 highlighted by so many people around this Court we need to focus on the section that talks about communication and engagement for that very point. But it is more complicated than that. Is there a consensus about the organisation of the way forward? It seems not. About 23% of respondents believe that the additional costs should be used to invest in renewable energy technologies. But more than two thirds of the respondents 5610 support only a small increase in the unit charge, with the bulk of that money being used for small environmentally friendly schemes. Half of the respondents think the response should be centralised with somebody like the MUA; and the other half think it should be localised, in little schemes. Basically, we have a massive practical issue to address. It is great that in this Hon. Court there is nobody this year who sounds as if they are a climate 5615 change sceptic, whereas in 2015 when we had a similar debate to this and we were delighted, there seemed to be quite a few people who were sceptics, if not deniers – three or four down here and at least one up there. And we have moved on in this Hon. Court but we do have practical issues now to address outside to take people with us, as shown clearly by the new section of the Social Attitude Survey on Renewable Energy that has not yet been reported by any 5620 of the media. Let’s be clear about this. We have known what needed to be done to address the challenge of climate change for years, if not decades. Sadly, I do remember that I voted Green in the 1989 European General Election. Let’s get practical now about some of the other issues that have come up, because you will 5625 find there are some real pioneers in the Civil Service and outside this Court who can help us whenever we want to pick up some of the ideas. So to address the biodiversity issue, the agricultural issue and the environmental issue you can find actually a strategy policy and the beginnings of an action plan out there in line with the international standards that was put together at the end of the last administration, that can just be picked up. If Mrs Maska and 5630 Mr Shimmins want to get together to sort out old housing, you will find that there is a big work file in Treasury from 2014-15-16 when we put together lots of financing for the conservation and energy efficiency of old houses and new houses. It is there ready to be picked up if you want to take it forward.
5635 Mr Shimmins: I have looked at it.
Mr Thomas: Yes. So therefore what I am saying is there has been the information there – (Mr Shimmins: Who wrote it?) Yours truly wrote it in conjunction with civil servants, and it is remarkably good. 5640 And therefore what we are saying is that we need to take people with us and that is going to involve communication with people. But I want to come on to my second point now, which is we cannot only talk with people. People are most important and we are representatives of the public, we get voted in by people. But this Climate Change Action Plan is going to take tens of millions of pounds of financing, 5645 hundreds of millions of pounds of financing over the decades. So we cannot afford only to talk to people who are activists, we have to talk to companies and people who have tens and hundreds of millions of pounds. So we need to work on a full costing of all of the actions financially and
also what the impact will be on emissions, CO2 and other emissions next year, in five years, in 10 years and in 15 years. 5650 We need to assess all of the options available in the transition period including around the energy efficiency involved in the conversions and the transition that will be able to be made. We ______933 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
need to gain an understanding of the effects on businesses but also their employees, because all the businesses on the Island need people; and they are our voters and there can be quite substantial trauma that could be involved in this. We need to work openly and honestly about 5655 technological possibilities now, technological advances that might be there in the transition period, and technological advances that could be there after the transition period. We need to specify how long that transition period is. We need to be honest; we cannot just make decisions today, even next week, even next year. We need to make decisions in a realistic time with people, for everybody involved in this sort of thing. 5660 It seems to me we have decided exactly what electrification is going to look like. But I do not think we are quite to that stage yet, because there are some practical issues that were laid down in the Action Plan about addressing those questions of transition fuel, transition energy, the technological possibilities and the advances that we need to make. The other points that I have been challenged by, during the speech, is to talk about planning 5665 policy. Because some of the pioneers behind all of this were those people in the Planning Department who as early as 2007 actually described the strategic plan for the Isle of Man as ‘Towards a Sustainable Island’. And they have been innovating as much as they can get away with inside the political will and the social will ever since. So inside the Area Plan for the East which was mentioned explicitly by Mr Shimmins, in the 5670 document that was submitted quite a long time ago, 12 or 18 months ago, it was established that:
By 2026, the green infrastructure network will be well established, connecting people with nature in a way that achieves the best shared outcomes for the urban and natural environment. Consideration at all levels of the development cycle will continue to be given to biodiversity, climate change and the best solutions to support ecology and the natural environment.
Green gaps are important, sustainable urban drainage systems are important, protecting natural water systems like those in Laxey will be important, and so on and so on. So I want to acknowledge in section 5, section 6 and section 7 particularly inside the Council 5675 of Ministers’ Action Plan we have specific actions for intensive, extensive investigation in a timely way in the context of development plans, but also the Strategic Plan Review that is coming up to tackle the sustainable drainage system; to tackle the planning policy for biodiversity gain; for tackling the all-Island changing network; for tackling further business hubs and public sector hubs in key locations around the Island; and for encouraging green technology 5680 and innovation. We have not been sitting down, we have been standing up and shouting about this and we will continue to do that. And in closing, Mr President, Hon. Members, I just wanted to say that it comes back ultimately to social impact and helping poorer people, but it also comes back to each of us individually. 5685 Back in 2005, 2006, 2007 personally we were spending a fortune on one of these Manx stone cottage conversions and we got a great architect to help us who gave us lots of ideas about lots of sorts of things, and my family and I have been lucky enough to be in a position – we were slightly richer than perhaps average, so we could afford to do some of the things and we genuinely did have to pay quite a lot of money to put in a ground source heat pump throughout 5690 our whole lawn in 2007. We did have to spend quite a lot of money in digging up the floors and putting in underfloor heating, and lining all of the walls inside an old Manx stone cottage and taking up the roof and putting in insulation underneath the roof. But it paid off, and that is the message I want to get across. It paid off. Admittedly the electric meter whizzes round sometimes but it is absolutely incredible that 5695 even this weekend when it is below freezing outside in the air, and the alcohol that is coming into my house through the pipes that come into my house, bringing in the exchange – (Interjections)
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A Member: We all wish we had one of them! 5700 Mr Thomas: – was coming in at minus two degrees, we can still get all of our hot water for our house and pretty much all of the heating for our house adequately for a normal family – because we are a relatively normal family! (Laughter) Sending it out again at -3.2 – isn’t it absolutely incredible that when there is frost on the ground you can still use one of these 5705 electric pumps? However, having said that, we have a gas boiler as a backup and we are managing our transition and that is an important thing that we need to do in practical terms. So with that, Hon. Members, Mr President, I fully support the motion. I commend Prof. Curran. I thank everybody in this Hon. Court today for having done justice to the work that the Transformation team has done across Government. This is not the first successful 5710 transformation project; Government does not work in silos all the time. There are lots of examples of this, more and more. But this is a particularly impressive episode and we are in a good place now to spend the next 18 months working up, making the real practical decisions that we have not quite made as yet because there are so many differences of opinion about what we should do next inside this room. Even now, you can just hear it from listening to us, we 5715 have not agreed.
The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly.
The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I shall be very brief. 5720 There are a couple of points that have not been raised that I would like to pick up on. First and foremost I would like to thank Prof. Curran, Mr Peake and Mrs Poole-Wilson and colleague Minister Boot for their work on this which has been quite exceptional and at a very rapid pace. The key word for me here is ‘transition’. It has been said a number of times but I think we must all rest on that particular word, because transition is about transition for our economy – 5725 which I will come back to – and transition for our Island in many ways also, but particularly also for energy. There have been several references to energy and there are a lot of hobby horses with regard to energy too. As a signatory of now six years ago for a tidal and a wind proposition for our Island, we have not seen it happen. Now, there have been a number of different reasons why that has not happened. But it is not 5730 through the will, politically, of trying to achieve that. So we have to recognise that there are real challenges going forward, particularly with energy, because energy is really important because we have a dynamic economy on this Island. We want to encourage that economy to remain dynamic. We want to encourage that economy to be sustainable, but we do need energy security. It is one of the key points that are in the Programme for Government – it talks about 5735 energy security. So we have the MUA, a fantastic asset; a massive liability still. We have private sector who provide energy for us as well, and we have to understand what that means. But there are multiple opportunities here and many Members have highlighted that; and two that have not been mentioned – there has been solar, there has been wind, there has been tidal and wave 5740 energy – there is also anaerobic digesting as an opportunity, there is geothermal as an opportunity. Now, many of these are actually buried within the action points. And I look at what the action points that the Council of Ministers have laid out and appear to be fully accepted by this Court. There are 60 there and I look at it as a mini-Programme for Government; and here is your opportunity, Members. Why? Because you can actually own that, especially if you 5745 represent a Department. You can actually own some of those action points because those action points will be long lasting. They will go beyond this administration, as has been highlighted. There are three key critical points of actually trying to achieve these 60 action points. They are incentives and my hon. colleague, the Treasury Minister, has highlighted the cost of that. Cost is going to have to come somewhere if you want to create incentives.
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5750 There is regulation; very important. I think Mrs Maska highlighted that with regard to building and also Mr Shimmins highlighted that for new builds; but the difficulty will be of course for the old builds. And it is education; and I do not mean education for our young people, because they are telling us loud and clear we need to take action. But I am talking about education, about 5755 reskilling our economy for these new skills that are going to be required for these new technologies that we do want to encourage. And yes, we do want to encourage it. We, as a Department, will be supporting that. We have a number of action points on now. But I would highlight that 67% of our contribution is through buildings and transport. Transport has been mentioned a number of times, different hobby horses for each of us, I 5760 know. But there is one action point on here I would just like to focus in on – 2.11:
Encourage mobile working, where possible for Government employees, to reduce travel requirements.
Now, over the years there have been proposals to move a Department to Ramsey, and I think Dr Allinson tweeted recently about it. Move it to Peel; move it to Castletown; move it to Port Erin, or Port St Mary. Mobile working will help solve that. Mobile working is simple; it is already being used by a number of people – not just in the private sector but some within Government. 5765 But we as a Government need to lead the way … We do it, politically, we mobile work. We need to encourage our staff to mobile work because if we did, a significant commitment – and I say a significant commitment – that will
reduce our CO2, it will reduce congestion coming in and out, it will reduce Government costs, because we will not need so much office space and parking. 5770 How many staff members do you know who have to move their cars every two hours because we do not pay for their parking? A lot of our staff. So there is a benefit there. And a Question this morning about the local economy. You put those several hundred people around the Island mobile working and they will support the local economy; and, yes, probably their post offices too, at the same time. And very, very importantly you will improve their quality of life. 5775 You can monitor them and you can have their duties monitored by production rather than sitting at a desk. So I would suggest that is one thing that we can do very early, very quickly and have a real effect. So I hope this is accepted, and it does appear it is, because it is a progressive and pragmatic approach which is what you have got before you. But I would highlight it is a living document – 5780 and take the opportunity, and own one of those action points. Gura mie eu.
The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply. You have fairly full support, Chief Minister. (Laughter) 5785 The Chief Minister: Thank you for the comments, but I think, Mr President, with all due respect, this is probably the biggest debate or one of most important debates we will have in this administration, (Two Members: Hear, hear.) so I think I do not want to rush too much and I hope people will bear that in mind. 5790 I think first of all I would like to thank my seconder, the Hon. Member Mr Boot. Obviously he discussed various issues but he came up with what for me was the key point to make in this. I will go through all your comments, but this is a collective commitment, it is not the Council of Ministers. I said this at the start: if we are going to make this work, Hon. Members, it cannot be the Council of Ministers getting bashed by non-ministers with their ideas. It is for you to work 5795 with us. We really made the Programme for Government work because everyone signed up to it, everyone took responsibility to make it work and that is the only way this is going to happen. This is a massive undertaking. It has got to be a massive undertaking for the people of the Isle of
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Man, it is going to be a massive undertaking for business but it must be something that all of Tynwald Members get involved with. 5800 Sadly, there were a couple of speeches where I felt that there was support for the plan but there were so many caveats that the Council of Ministers will be jumped on from a great height if we did not deliver that. That is not how we can work with this, Hon. Members. If this is to succeed, if you genuinely want this to succeed then the rock throwing has to stop on this topic. If you are not happy with something or you have a concern about an area that you do not feel is 5805 getting the attention that you feel it needs, then pick up the phone, go and see the committee that will be tasked with taking this forward. Do not wait to throw rocks at myself or Minister Boot or whoever you are not happy with, because if we degenerate down to that level we will not succeed. So there were a number of you who I liked the comments of that this was our Report. It is not 5810 my Report, it is not Mr Peake’s Report or Mr Robertshaw’s Report, this is Tynwald’s Report and if we support this it will only work if we work together. So I just wanted to, I suppose, get that off my chest, if I may, and hopefully it is taken with the best of spirit. So starting off with the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson, I thank her for her support and pointing out the positives; she had a couple of areas she looked for reassurance on. 5815 The policy action 1 will be delivered quickly and over the weeks immediately following today, should all Hon. Members support it. There will be signs and news of activity and delivery on this policy area, and communication on the establishment of a programme of work and recruitment will be eminent, but it is important that we take the time to do this successfully. We have a long programme of work ahead. Engagement and education is key and will be well planned and 5820 executed to ensure we reach beyond those who want to hear and we need to engage with our whole community. As the Hon. Member reiterated, this has to be the whole committee. It was not just the Hon. Member of Council, a number of you said and could see clearly that it had to be the whole of the Island; and we do have to take people with us – that was a reoccurring thing. 5825 Dr Allinson spoke and thanked the Chief Secretary and his team. Both he and his team at the MUA have an important part to play in taking our plan forward and he outlined some of this, but absolutely his area takes a key responsibility going forward. I was grateful for his support. Mr Shimmins raised concerns about the areas in which we are behind, maybe slow and this Action Plan is the opportunity to make a real difference in terms of the main emissions sectors. 5830 We can set ambitious targets and drive action to achieve these. He also raises past failures on natural environment and a key part of addressing climate change in this plan is the nature-based solutions – sustainable land use, blue carbon special use and learning more about what we can do. I think someone else mentioned about our peatland and I think it is in the plan that one of the early quick wins that we are going to do straight away is getting a thousand acres of 5835 peatland restored, which will hopefully go part way. But obviously buildings regs, transport, the economic – we can take the right path. There is an attitude in leadership, it will be tested – he is quite right but it is not just my leadership; it is all of us leading the way if we are going to make this work. He is quite right, being slightly behind can be advantageous because you can see where 5840 others have gone wrong and if it works then we can adopt it ourselves. The only thing where we probably have a difference of opinion is own electricity generation. Having lived through Chernobyl and not being able to use and move lambs for months and months as a result of the nuclear fallout on Manx land, personally I cannot see how nuclear power is green. That is a personal view to me and I know Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney have had problems when a fishing 5845 trawler hit their electric cable and they did not have electricity and they had to import copious amounts of diesel oil to keep their electricity generators going whilst it was fixed. But that is an argument maybe future generations can have over whether you are self-sustainable in electricity. We have the lowest outage in Europe. We have e-gaming businesses that rely heavily on data centres where a few minutes out can cost a lot of money and these are things that have ______937 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
5850 to be factored into whether we have our own system or whether we are reliant on someone else. But that is a discussion I think for going forward. Obviously Mr Hooper, I thank him for his comments that seven months to deliver a plan was impressive and he hopes the plan will be activated quickly, and so do I. He mentioned Terry Pratchett as his source of inspiration and I was thinking maybe he could lend Mr Pratchett’s 5855 book, Going Postal to Ms Edge, Chair of the Post Office, to get inspirational ideas. If you know that book and the film, it was all about a failing post office that was turned around by Moist von Lipwig.
The Speaker: A book – ‘Rock Throwing Must Stop’! 5860 The Chief Minister: Yes! (Interjections) But we must focus on making the Island a better place and must benefit people, and that was a general theme throughout most people’s speeches – about taking people with us, making sure the vulnerable people of the Island are looked after and taken on this journey, rather than left there. A Just Transition that will help people the most, 5865 I think we have all signed up for that. It was in my speech, it is in the plan. Reduction in heating costs is an investment and, yes, it is a reduction in fuel poverty, isn’t it, if we can get this right – the insulation? I think Minister Boot’s Department have run a competition on a retrofit for houses on the Isle of Man and that is something that we are already looking at to see how we can retrofit our houses to reduce the cost. Minister Thomas and Mr Robertshaw 5870 have shown us how it can be done. They are trailblazers. Never would I expect to say Mr Robertshaw was a trailblazer in modern technology but he has impressed me. And if he can do it, we can all do it! (Laughter and interjection)
The Speaker: ‘The rock throwing must stop’! (Laughter) 5875 The Chief Minister: In jest of course, Mr Speaker! If I move on to Mr Henderson, Member of Council, and his quote, ‘Mother Earth is a source of life,’ and maybe the Earth is something that we have abused for generations and some parts of our previous generations have maybe just not been aware of the damage that they have 5880 caused with industrial revolutions and what we do. But I think we have woken up to the fact that we have caused a lot of damage to this world and we need to fix it, because at this moment in time unless you can go billions of miles to another planet that they think might have some life on, this is the only one we have got and if we do not sort it out, we are in serious trouble. Mr Harmer gave us an action journey from his Department’s point of view that we will see 5885 lots of changes on the journey. I think he raised the key point that nothing is set in tablets of stone, if we are going to achieve this journey we cannot say, ‘This is what we’re going to do,’ and then in five years’ time insist that what we agreed five years previously is the way forward, because technology is moving so fast that it has got to be a fluid plan and we have got to be open to change. 5890 Mrs Caine gave me lots of questions and reassurance that she wanted. We will do our best to work with the Hon. Member. Focus on delivery is the priority for the Council of Ministers, as with the Programme for Government. We have identified the actions we will be establishing. We will be establishing a performance framework and robust programme management and officers are working on this as we speak and I am sure that within weeks we will have solid progress in 5895 this area and by July we will be reporting well against the delivery of the actions. Mrs Caine, Hon. Member for Garff, also talked about watering down actions. This is certainly not what I wanted to be coming across. It is not the case. CoMin has agreed a phased approach so that all the actions are researched and the impact understood, and as a responsible government there are some cases where more work is needed before we take on full blown 5900 action and that is phase 2, that is what we have agreed. Phase 1, we have come up with 60 actions: tree planting, peat regeneration, an example of those 60 areas; but phase 2, ______938 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Prof. Curran clearly says in his Report that not all the information is there and that we need to do further detailed research and therefore whilst we are doing the 60 actions we will also be working up a phased plan on how we take forward those areas that need further work. 5905 So I do not have the answers for everything. The Report does not have the answers for everything. I do not think people can expect me to give you the answers for everything or this plan would be all over the world being used. But working together I am convinced we can achieve this going forward. The Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska: a key thrust was working with natural insulation, 5910 maybe working with farmers and builders in the traditional ways of insulating houses and I know fleece from sheep has been used in some areas to insulate houses; and also mentioned it is important we educate and bring people with us – brownfield sites, and that was the theme of quite a number of your speeches. Mr Ashford: ‘You gave us a report, a breath of fresh air delivered in a financially prudent 5915 way,’ and discussed the ‘Climate Change Transformation Board’. The Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw, had three comments: limited ambition to number of charging points, and I am sure that is something we can look into with the MUA and come back on. Insulating old properties, I mentioned earlier we had that retrofit competition to see what we can do. Yes, there are 44,000 properties on the Isle of Man; 80% of them will be still there by 5920 2050 so that is a big ask and if you do not retrofit and insulate those houses then energy for heat sourced currently will not heat them. So we do have major problems there that we have got to overcome. Mr Baker clearly reminded us that it was an ecological emergency as well as a climate emergency and the actions we take there are consequences; Just Transition, we must take 5925 people with us; he did not support the importation of electricity. All valid points. Mrs Lord-Brennan, Hon. Member of Council, gave thanks to how well this had been handled by the team, the urgency of the response; mentioned active travel will need to be stepped up – absolutely correct and that is something Minister Harmer’s team, working with others, will be taking on board; but also raised the fact that clean air, we can make this Island a better place to 5930 live with the changes that we are making; and that we need to help local authorities going forward, sharing ideas on this; and that food and agricultural production seem to be missing but it is in the Report and phase 2, the Department are working with the unions and the farming community. Mr Cannan welcomed the Report, obviously – I would hope he would, too, as Treasury 5935 Minister! He pointed out though, quite rightly, which I hope my speech put over, the differing views of the public: not everyone supports climate change; lots of concerns and doubts which we must address. We must take people with us; that is the message. He is absolutely right that we must look at unorthodox ideas – and whether he is the Dominic Cummings of the Isle of Man is another thing! But yes, the changes in technology, if you thought years ago that a cup turned 5940 over with a wind mast on it, with four anchors in the sea would generate electricity from wave movement and then electricity from wind you would have said the person was bonkers, but that is the development they are doing in Ireland which is being trialled in Hawaii. So we have got to look at new technology and not be dismissive of some of these ideas that are coming out. There will be benefits and opportunities but we must ensure that we have a conversation with the 5945 public; and obviously the finance was covered and I would be disappointed if the Treasury Minister had not disclosed the financing of it. Mr Peake thanked the team for producing a body of work that has universal support; Prof. Curran has put forward good and tried and tested ideas. The transformational board is key and he is quite right, the key people must be on this, but whilst there will be a board I am back 5950 to this, Hon. Members, it cannot just be the board, it cannot just be the Council of Ministers, it has to be all of us. If you are not happy get in contact. Please do not try and undermine this. If you are not happy, work to take it forward.
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Mrs Barber: the key now is delivering the plan and, I like this phrase, the challenge lies firmly at our door, and our door is Tynwald’s door; it is not my door, it is not the Council of Ministers’ 5955 door, it is all of us. Mr Perkins: we got off to a good start but there must be a Just Transition. I think that has been a recurring theme of taking people with us and being open to a mix of technology and, yes, phase 2 will be looking at that technology as we go forward. Mrs Corlett: concerned about the cost, obviously with the other costs of the Health Service, 5960 teachers’ dispute and all the other things where we have got big commitments, pensions, black holes that we have got in track but it is still going to be a big amount of money going forward. And yes, it is right to take that into consideration. There is not a blank cheque for this so that is phase 2: how are we going to fund it; what are we going to do? Some of the things that are in the Report we might not agree with. She is absolutely right, we cannot do things on our own, so 5965 we cannot ban fossil fuel cars and central heating systems if the rest of the world does not do it, and it is the same with plastics coming in from supermarkets – unless the rest of the world does it they are not going to listen to the Isle of Man saying, ‘We want this,’ it has got to be working with them. But we can work together and sew our seeds with other governments to work on this. 5970 Mr Thomas was getting practical and I hope his wife is still speaking to him (Laughter) after the speech about insulating his house! But it can be done and he does mention the fact that the social attitudes review is key and it is back to that, we need to bring people with us, which was key. Finally, Mr Skelly: transition is a key word and he laboured on economy, energy, the MUA, 5975 private sector, various types of new energy, wave, gas and thermal, which is right, we have got to have an open mind on the energy going forward. He did point out the 60 points are being developed. They can be owned by all of us and these are the incentives and there are eight regulations. He also mentioned reskilling of our young people; that is really important that we train up our young people so that the jobs are there and we have the people on the Island to 5980 deliver the green technology that we need. So with that, thank you all for a very good debate. This is an incredibly key debate of this administration and maybe of this generation so I have taken a little bit longer than normal but I think it was really important. I hope you can support it. I beg to move.
5985 The President: Hon. Members, the motion is set out at Item 4, Government Climate Change Action Plan. Voting on the motion as printed, those in favour say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 24, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford None Mr Moorhouse Dr Allinson Mr Baker Mrs Barber Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Miss Costain Mr Cregeen Ms Edge
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Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 24 for and 0 against
In the Council – Ayes 9, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson None Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
5990 The President: In Council, 9 votes for, 0 against. The motion carries unanimously. Thank you, Hon. Members.
5. Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-2019 – Debate commenced
The Children’s Champion (Mr Baker) to move:
That the Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-2019 [GD No 2019/0103] be received.
The President: Item 5, Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-19. Mr Baker to move.
5995 The Children’s Champion (Mr Baker): Thank you very much, Mr President. I stand to bring this Hon Court my first Annual Report as Children’s Champion, which covers the 18 months or so from my appointment in May 2018 to last month. Children’s Champion is an important role and a role that I believe is making a difference – an unusual role. Perhaps not always a well understood role, but the type of role that may be very 6000 useful in our thinking about future models of government and scrutiny; cross departmental, close to the action, bringing ongoing scrutiny in a practical and effective manner working with officers who are delivering service. Involving engagement more directly with officers than other traditional scrutiny roles do. In summary, my role is to be a voice and an advocate for the three specific categories of 6005 young people who are classed as vulnerable, namely Looked After Children (LAC) or children in care, children with complex needs and young carers; fundamentally, to ensure that they are heard. As such I have brought my Report to this Hon. Court today to enable the important issues it covers to be highlighted and debated. It may be an unfamiliar type of report. It contains no ______941 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
6010 recommendations as such, but it does make some clear and, in my view, balanced observations which need to be responded to. Mr President, I am not going to repeat the contents of my Report in detail, but I am going to draw out some key aspects. My Report highlights some real issues around Looked After Children that need attention – attention that we all need to give in line with our individual and collective 6015 duties as corporate parents. Equally, it demonstrates that progress is being made in various areas, thus providing encouragement that the future can and will be better than it is now. Mr President, it is fair to say that in the past we have not done the best job in looking after our most vulnerable children and young people on this Island. Indeed, that was the reason why this role of Children’s Champion was introduced several years ago after what became known as 6020 the Leece Lodge murders – to ensure that the future is better for this group of young people than it has been in the past. Over the last 18 months I can honestly say that we are making progress in a number of areas, but many things are quite simply not good enough. These things need to be acknowledged and spoken about in order that they can be resolved – not to point fingers, not to apportion blame, 6025 not to score points or to knock individuals; simply to be clear that action is required to reach the required standards to drive progress. The benchmark is that the Island’s service provision for our Looked After Children is the best that it can be. At the moment it is not. The most fundamental issue is that we have a foster care system which is under severe strain. It lacks available capacity. It is insufficiently robust. No new 6030 foster carers have been recruited for over 12 months, whilst at the same time numbers of Looked After Children have risen throughout the year and we now have currently 103 children and young people looked after by the Government. Morale amongst foster carers is low. The Department of Health and Social Care is just about coping with this situation. This is entirely thanks to the hard work of officers, flexibility from existing carers and a very close and 6035 supportive working relationship with the key service provider, St Christopher’s trust. However, we cannot get away from the fact that the Department’s officers are having to micro-manage the situation, to react pragmatically on a day-to-day basis to ensure that it simply copes. This is not good for anyone involved, most importantly the children. And it is not sustainable. 6040 One of the consequences of this is that children are being placed in residential care much younger than would normally be acceptable. The roots of these issues are long-embedded in historic arrangements that, with the benefit of hindsight, were clearly not on a solid foundation. Some of these issues were recognised when the Family Placement Service was brought back into Government in October 2018. Previously it had been outsourced to the Children’s Centre. Some 6045 of these issues have become clearer over time and some new issues have emerged. I think it is fair to say that the challenge facing the Department is harder than they recognised at that time. It is right to acknowledge the legacy causes of these issues. However, that is far from the whole story. Insufficient progress has been made in addressing these issues to date. By now we should have been in what I would term a ‘business as usual’ mode, 15 months along this 6050 journey; we are not. This is disappointing to all concerned. I have not seen the turnaround approach and pace that I had expected. Decisions have had to be made in an attempt to stabilise the situation and they have had to be maintained for far longer than had been planned. One of those is the moratorium on recruiting foster carers. As a result, the expectations that were initially built amongst stakeholders have inevitably 6055 been disappointed. This of course knocks confidence and compounds the issues in a service which is a difficult service to manage and one in which there is a far more emotional element than most aspects of public service. (A Member: Hear, hear.) However, we need to look forward and we need to be intentional in creating the future that is required. The Department does have plans to introduce a new methodology that is expected 6060 to increase service resilience and capacity. However, this will take time and time that we really
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do not have, time that our Looked After Children do not have and that our foster care service does not have. Trust and confidence between the DHSC and the foster carers also needs rebuilding. This is fundamental to the success of a service which requires the Department and foster carers 6065 working in partnership, to look after these children to the best of our collective ability. The Department took a very positive step in commissioning a series of independent workshops last autumn. Those workshops captured the voice of the foster carers, which were expressed with passion and concern. I was present at all three workshops which took place across the Island. The views were hard-hitting and honest from people for whom this really 6070 matters. The Department has received the outputs from these workshops and they have been shared with Department staff. Their response and plan of action is currently being prepared. I have no doubt that this is being taken seriously, as it must be. It then needs to be delivered – in full and on time, and the foster carers need to be taken with the Department and the staff to deliver that. But it goes without saying, or it should go without saying, that the children must be 6075 right at the heart of it. We should have no doubt, Mr President, that improving our foster care service is a difficult task. This may be compounded by the Health and Care Transformation process, where it would be easy for the Department to take its eye off the ball, particularly as Children and Families is but a small piece of the wider Department. This simply cannot be allowed to happen. Positive 6080 change is certainly required. It will only be delivered through clear intent and focus, we cannot allow this to slip. Looking more widely, I am encouraged by progress in a number of areas. The educational issues of Looked After Children have been recognised by the Department of Education, Sport and Culture. It became clear, through work undertaken by the Corporate Parenting Group, that 6085 provision has to date been fragmented and disjointed. The Department of Education, Sport and Culture’s response of appointing a new role of Additional Needs and Standards Advisor to take up post later this spring is very welcome and I understand that the individual that has been appointed is extremely well-regarded within the Department and certainly their appointment was greeted very positively by all who have been 6090 connected with it. This new role will bring focus and accountability within the Department in the way of a virtual headteacher, effectively, which is the language that we have used to describe it. So the educational outcomes of Looked After Children are really focused on as a cohort across the Department. The appointment of a well-respected individual who was already in a very successful and prominent role within the Department shows a serious commitment from that 6095 individual and from the Department, which bodes well for the future. Likewise, I am encouraged by the response to the work of the Select Committee on the Provision of Accommodation for Vulnerable Young People, in which Mr Callister and Mrs Sharpe worked alongside me. That promises to change the longer term outlook for the life chances of those leaving care, and the support from the Council of Ministers and from Tynwald was very 6100 well received. It is pleasing that these issues and actions were ones which the Corporate Parenting Group played a part in highlighting the need for. This multi-disciplinary group, consisting of officers from the Department of Health and Social Care, Department of Education, Sport and Culture and Department of Home Affairs, plus St Christopher’s, chaired by the Children’s Champion is an 6105 effective and valuable forum which has already driven progress and will drive further progress over the coming year. St Christopher’s also work very collaboratively with the Department and play a very valuable role in improving the outcomes for Looked After Children – both as a commissioned service provider and through their charitable activity. In particular I commend their self-funded Support 6110 into Employment scheme which was introduced this year, which is already demonstrably improving employment prospects for Looked After Children whilst also increasing the supply of young people into our working population, and I would hope that that service is something ______943 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
which Government as an employer could engage further with this year, because I think there are some real opportunities to change the outcomes for these young people and to provide workers 6115 into our workforce. Finally, I believe that Tynwald Members’, individual and collective, engagement with Looked After Children and the issues around corporate parenting has never been more positive than it is now and that is something that I feel very proud of collectively that we are really engaging with this. 6120 So, whilst there are clearly a huge number of challenges to be faced, these positives give me a real cause for optimism. I am positive that we can change the prospects for these young people, who are our responsibility, for the better, for the long term, for each of their futures. With that, Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
6125 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): Thank you, Mr President. 6130 Hon. Members, I welcome the Report of the Children’s Champion 2018-19, noting both the encouraging developments outlined in it and the points made expressing concerns and making observations and suggestions. As Chair of the Council of Ministers’ Social Policy and Children’s Committee and a member of the Health and Care Transformation Political Board, I am pleased to advise that, building on the 6135 progress advised in October 2019, a new Action Plan for Children and Young People has been prepared for 2020, which will include appropriately actions necessary to fulfil expectations. That update to the action plan adopts a refreshed format, with a strengthened focus on ‘outcomes’ rather than merely actions, as recommended by the Scottish Care Inspectorate. The plan continues to be strategically overseen by cross-Government lead officers, reporting 6140 into the Council of Ministers’ sub-committee I chair and annually to us ourselves in this Hon. Court. This Report rightly recognises changes on the horizon regarding the Health and Care Transformation Programme and the Children and Families Division of the Department of Health and Social Care, and I thank the Hon. Children’s Champion for his great vision in recognising the 6145 future as well as discussing the immediate past. I am confident that all Hon. Members share his resolve and my resolve that children and young people continue to receive our utmost attention, and that any changes should deliver real benefits. Mr President, such changes, whatever they are, should not divert us from our shared goal 6150 which is delivering for our Island’s children. In that regard, I commend the Children’s Champion for the way he has carried out his role, his contribution in general and this insightful, important Report. I chose not to reserve my remarks, so in closing I pledge two things in the capacities I mentioned earlier. The first is that my two ears are open to every remark made by any Member 6155 in this debate; and secondly, I will use my mouth to make sure that points and suggestions are followed up by officers when it is operational and deals with professional matters, and politically when it comes to political matters, working with the Children’s Champion and the other champions involved, with the Ministers involved, with the departmental Members involved and indeed with all politicians who I believe share universally in the Island the concern to make sure 6160 we deliver for our Island’s children – all of our Island’s children.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. ______944 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
6165 I would like to start by thanking the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker, for what is a comprehensive and detailed report. I know that since taking up the post the Hon. Member has engaged widely with stakeholders and has worked exceptionally hard at bringing all those stakeholders together. The work that has been undertaken around the Corporate Parenting Group has turned it into a much more focused partnership with more of a strategic focus with 6170 clearly defined outcomes and deliverables. I want to thank the Hon. Member for highlighting in his key trends the increased numbers of children in residential care. I personally view this with concern as I am a firm believer that wherever possible – and there will always be the odd few cases where it is not possible – a family home is the best environment for children. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) 6175 I know that the service currently faces challenges but it is important that we continue to look at what we can do to expand that provision. There have been challenges since the Family Placement Service reintegrated with the Department just over 14 months ago and progress on some of those issues has been frustratingly slow. However, as the Hon. Member highlights in his Report, most posts have now been filled with permanent staffing which will give some much 6180 needed continuity to the service and training and development needs are starting to be met. I fully agree this is something that must form an important part of the Division’s delivery plan this year and welcome the recognition from the Hon. Member on page 8 of his Report that it is reflected in the Department’s forward plans which the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe, who has delegated responsibility in that area, I am sure will expand on shortly. Also I, and the 6185 rest of the Department, look forward in positively engaging with the Hon. Member so we can ensure that the changes required can be put in place. Just responding as well, Mr President, at this point, in the opening remarks the Hon. Member made he expressed some concern that the transformation could interfere with this moving forward. I state quite categorically here and now, Mr President, that the transformation is 6190 separate from the day-to-day of the Department and it is quite rightly so, the day-to-day business of the Department must continue. The Hon. Member said that Children and Families is a small piece of the Department, but it is an important piece, Mr President. In fact I would actually go as far to say it is an essential piece of the work that goes on. The relationship between the service and foster carers does need to be improved and that 6195 has been recognised by the Department since the service came back within the remit of the Department. Once again I thank the Hon. Member for his engagement which has resulted from the workshops held in the production of a comprehensive report which will provide a foundation for building better communication and engagement. A relationship of mutual understanding and trust is essential to delivering the future success of the service and that is fully recognised within 6200 the Department. There is a long way to go and we have been starting from a low base. I am the first to acknowledge that, but with the right engagement and a defined action plan I believe it is a situation we can improve. Mr President, we call the role the Children’s Champion and over the 18 months that he has been in post, Mr Baker has been precisely that – a champion. 6205 (A Member: Hear, hear.) He has championed the cause of the children which his role looks to give a voice to and where he has identified issues or problems he has not been shy of coming forward to work with the Department to get those issues resolved. On a personal note, as Minister, Mr President, I would just like to put on record that the Hon. Member’s constant engagement and enthusiasm for the role has been a pleasure to work 6210 with. The Department has welcomed the constructive engagement with the Hon. Member over the last 18 months and looks forward to continuing to build on that over the forthcoming year leading up to his next report which we hope he will be able to say that we are on a path to resolving the issues he has raised today.
6215 A Member: Hear, hear.
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The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. 6220 I would like to thank the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael for his Report, and I do not wish to comment extensively on the content, particularly given the commentaries already made on the significant issue and challenges regarding the fostering provision, but I do want to highlight a couple of things that I think are very important and welcome. First, I think it is pleasing to see the efforts that are being made now to address data 6225 inadequacies and monitor the effectiveness of corporate parenting across Government and relevant bodies. This is what enables us to see whether planned interventions actually are having good outcomes; and so, for me, this is a very important area to build on and continue. I am also pleased to see that the educational provision for Looked After Children is recognised as an issue that needs to be addressed and that there is detailed work under way 6230 between the Department of Health and Social Care, the Department of Education and St Christopher’s, to work up measures to support better access and outcomes in education. In my capacity as Chair of St Christopher’s Isle of Man Trustees I have been privileged to learn something of what makes this issue challenging, not least the impact of trauma that has been suffered by Looked After Children, and its impact on some Looked After Children’s ability to 6235 thrive even within a school environment. I have also seen first-hand how well some looked after young people respond to the appropriate tailored interventions such as hands-on skills-based activities. So this is a complex and difficult area where increased understanding of what might work for each looked after child and how it can best be delivered are a key part of improving the position. 6240 With that in mind, I also welcome the work on this and the appointment of a virtual head teacher. I am reminded, as we were listening to that of Mr Robertshaw, the Hon. Member for Douglas East’s commentary about his madness earlier on, and the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing and hope for a different result. Well, if we want a different result for our looked after young people with some of the complex issues involved, then we must think 6245 differently and we must act differently if we want to see better results. But we must also then monitor these interventions and we must not be afraid to say that if we try something and it does not produce the outcome we want, to acknowledge that. I think that is also something that Prof. Curran made very clear around action to address climate change. It is also true for this. These are difficult issues. We must try different things, but 6250 if they do not work there should be no harm in coming back and explaining why they did not work and what we are going to try next. One final reflection which picks up on something that the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael mentioned in his opening remarks, and that is a reflection on the role of the Champion. I do think there is value to be had in allowing Hon. Members of this Court to take up roles where 6255 appropriate that enable them not to be within a Department but to look at how – particularly issues whether it is about the rights and protections for children – in my own case, how we can embed the delivery of equality, to put people in positions where they can work effectively cross- departmentally without actually having to be within a Department. Because it does enable you to engage with officers constructively but to retain the ability, as the Hon. Member has done, to 6260 bring forward a report that highlights for all of us what some of the problems are and what he feels needs to be done to address them, and to give us transparency and oversight of what then is being done to address them. And if I throw that out again as food for thought that where possible it is a useful tool and perhaps could be used in other circumstances. Thank you, Mr President. 6265 The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. ______946 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
This is an excellent and very important Report and obviously an awful lot of time and effort 6270 has gone into it, which is even more impressive given the range of other areas of Government that the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael is currently responsible for. I believe that the full adoption of the role of corporate parent is essential. Looked After Children (LACs) is a phrase often used, but we need to listen to the words. These are children we, as a corporate body, are entrusted to look after. Not just to house and feed, but to create 6275 the right environment for them to learn, heal, mature, develop and flourish. I congratulate him for his critical analysis of the Corporate Parenting Group. It is this independent scrutiny that the role of the Children’s Champion hopes to provide – and he has managed to do it. However, I am concerned by his comments about the family placement service, the increasing numbers of children in care homes and the fractured nature of the 6280 fostering provision on the Island. As someone who was a medical adviser for the previous fostering panel I have seen the talent, skills and dedication of foster parents on the Island; but I have also experienced how a lack of continuity of social workers, poor communication and misinformation has destroyed trust in the service. It is imperative that the improvements within the Children and Family Division are translated into a cultural change which supports foster 6285 carers and ensures the appropriate placement of Looked After Children within a nurturing environment. It is also about time that the Department delivered on its promise of legislation to ensure the process of adoption is streamlined so that the long-term appropriate care of children is guaranteed, rather than continually left in a state of uncertainty. 6290 I applaud the Hon. Member for his frustration and impatience because that is what any parent would feel with the current situation. I sincerely hope his Report acts as a catalyst for change, but there is much to be done to ensure that the voices of Looked After Children, children with complex needs and young carers are both heard and listened to. Too many children with complex needs struggle to find a bridge between Health Services and educational 6295 facilities. As corporate parents, whichever part of Government we are based in, we must commit to work together for the good of the children of this Island; and I look forward to his further reports. Thank you, Mr President.
Standing Order 1.2(2) suspended to complete Item 5
The President: Hon. Members, it being eight o’clock on the Court clock, I am obliged to close 6300 this session unless I hear otherwise. Mr Cregeen.
Mr Cregeen: Mr President, can I move that we sit to the end of this Item, please?
6305 Mr Cannan: Seconded, Mr President.
Members: Agreed.
The President: The motion has been put, and to assist you in that decision I have five 6310 Members so far still wishing to speak. I put it to the vote. It will go straight to an electronic vote, I think.
Electronic voting resulted as follows:
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In Tynwald – Ayes 28, Noes 5
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mr Boot Mr Moorhouse Mrs Caine Dr Allinson Mr Speaker Mr Baker Mr Henderson Mrs Barber The Lord Bishop Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Miss Costain Mr Cregeen Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Thomas Miss August-Hanson Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
The Speaker: It is 28-5.
The President: Now, I have got 21 in the Keys and 7 in Council. It is a combined vote, so 6315 28 votes have been cast in favour (The Speaker: Yes.) and 5 against. The debate proceeds.
Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-2019 – Debate continued – Motion carried
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe.
Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I stand before you as a Member of the Department of Health and Social Care and as the 6320 political lead for Children and Families. I would like to start by thanking the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker, for his first report as Children's Champion which I found to be excellently laid out, direct, clear, open and honest in tone, and which rightly focuses on the challenges currently faced by the Division. I see it as my job today to reassure Members that the Division acknowledges and welcomes the 6325 findings in his Report. Focusing on Looked After Children, since this was the main thrust of the Report, it is absolutely true that the process of adoption currently takes far too long and that this is not acceptable. It is absolutely true that the system of fostering in the Island is not working perfectly and that educational achievements of the children we look after have not been well enough
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6330 monitored or improved, and that the accommodation in which we place our young people is simply not good enough. But I stand here today to assure Members that the Division is aware of these problems and that it is fully committed to solving them. In fact, it is worth pointing out that the valuable workshops held in the summer of 2019, which have collected the views of foster carers, were 6335 carried out with the full support of the Division, which has been eager to consider and to take on board the views and experiences of foster carers. To that end, I can announce today – and that is why there has been a moratorium on foster carers, as the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael pointed out – that after much research the Division has identified a system of community-based fostering which has been introduced and 6340 evaluated in other jurisdictions over the past five years, and which it believes would work well on the Island. The Division wishes first to consult with foster carers and if – and only if – foster carers are in support, the Director of Children and Families, Debbie Brayshaw, will this spring present to Hon. Members a new approach to fostering in the Isle of Man. The Division is listening. Things may not be moving as quickly as the Hon. Member might 6345 wish, but as is often said in this Hon. Court we have to get things right. And I think it is fair to say that the mood in this Hon. Court, over the past 22 months that I have been here, is that there has been an increasing commitment on the behalf of Members to get things right for the children we look after. And I would like to assure you, Mr President, that I will continue, with the support of 6350 Minister Ashford, to keep my focus on getting things right for our children and ensure that the needs of the Division are met. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Miss August-Hanson. 6355 Miss August-Hanson: Thank you, Mr President. I do not want to repeat anything that other Members have so eloquently put, so I have just got a couple of comments that I would quite like to make. First, I would just like to congratulate both the Children’s and the Equality Champions for 6360 their reports respectively, and I certainly did not have a chance last time to do so, when the Equality Champion brought her report. Equally, both were well written and very informative and I believe that the work of both champions does demonstrate the benefit of having Members working across the Government spectrum and establishing effective, cohesive working as my colleague on Legislative Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson, has already alluded to. 6365 The Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael is aware that I am quite impressed by his work in this area already; and Members have already alluded to the successes in the Report, so I will make this quite brief … Just a point that struck me quite early on in the Report. Often we talk about big-ticket subjects like single legal and operational entity, increasing efficiency and effectiveness and I would like to believe that there are some levels of easy wins though with the right 6370 leadership style and – here I talk of item 6 of Mr Baker’s Report, and it is on page 4. He says this, if Members will forgive me for reciting his words: the initial impression of the Corporate Parenting Group (CPG) was of a forum which had the potential to be effective. However, it lacked both clear purpose and energy. There was little sense of issues being identified and addressed or of tangible outcomes being achieved. 6375 He was surprised to discover a noticeable absence of data and little sense of accountability. A number of attendees confirmed that perspective informally, in comments outside of the meeting. A little over a year on and substantial progress had been achieved. The CPG was fulfilling its purpose and had clear focus, identifying key issues, agreeing actions and subsequently delivering against them. Further work was required but the Children’s Champion 6380 did say that he believes that it is now an effective forum demonstrating Government and external providers working collaboratively towards a common purpose. ______949 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
I just thought that was such a fantastic thing to be pointing out and perhaps we might be able to bottle his approach in some way and just make use of it perhaps in other forums. I am sure that every Member in here at some point in their career, whether in here or 6385 outside of here, has been in meetings or attended meetings for meetings’ sake that were dour or needless, and producing little outcome with not enough focus and not inspiring enough for the people that were meant to be engaging in them. I think that this is a prospective example of best practice that perhaps might need exploring. That is not for me to say, but it is for others perhaps that might take that forward. Having talked 6390 to the Member about this work perhaps it does warrant some level of investigation. So it is just a thought and you have my respect, though, Mr Baker. Thank you; and thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord Brennan. 6395 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I really welcome the Report from Mr Baker and the focus it has brought. To speak first of all to do with fostering, I have also heard of the depth of the issues with that. It can be quite heart- breaking for the people involved and the family units who have talked of absolute 6400 disappointment and distrust and being disheartened, when there are families in our communities that do want to play a role in offering a home and that will happily change round their lives, their homes and their finances in order to do a really very good thing. I think it shows the worthwhile value of the role in that it is quite one thing to make representations of these sorts of concerns on an individual basis, or for families to try and make 6405 their voices heard as they are going through this difficult process. And it is quite another thing to have a separate report that brings that together with much more force and therefore gives a weight to the concerns, so that it really puts a marker down for these things to be addressed. And for that to come to this Court I think it is really valuable. So I agree with the comments made about fostering and I appreciate that. 6410 It does show, though, that if this approach of having a Children’s Champion looking at Looked After Children has been successful and a way of identifying things that need more focus for those children, it does make me think; and I would be interested in the mover’s opinion on whether there would actually be value in it having a broader role of a Children’s Champion, because who knows what other benefits and issues that it might identify? Who knows what else 6415 it might find that might help us inform policy or legislation in this place, or make a positive difference to children and young people on the Island? The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child was brought to my attention recently, and I know that some other Members also were lucky to attend a presentation where this was covered, and whether it is a goal or their tagline is: ‘For every child health, education, equality, 6420 protection, advanced humanity’. And while some of these things might seem quite broad if you actually look at the Convention and the articles, and they even have an implementation handbook, actually we are committed to this. It is not something that we were able to sign up to directly but it is something that is extended to us, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I just wondered actually if you had 6425 a broader role as Children’s Champion – and I am not suggesting that Mr Baker adds to his huge workload on this – but I would be interested in his feelings as to whether that might be a worthwhile exercise, to help us improve what we are doing and inform other areas that need further attention, or just to have a different angle or lens to look at things. Thank you, Mr President. 6430 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. ______950 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
As my limited comments, as it were, repeat in part comments already made by Hon. 6435 Members, I will keep them very succinct. Can I just say to the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael that I found his Report, the form of it excellent, the focus very worthy and a very honest report, and it clearly indicates that the role is in very safe hands and I commend him for that. I would just like to expand slightly on the comments of Members from the Legislative Council, 6440 Mrs Poole-Wilson and Mrs Kate Lord-Brennan, in the sense that I see further building on the good work that he is doing, further expansion of the role and a greater emphasis on the part of this Hon. Court, that interdepartmental roles are increasingly important; and I just would gently remind Members that the Independent Panel Report on Emoluments would actually indicate and lean towards supporting this concept. 6445 One of the points, or a question really, and it again repeats a thread that has come out so far in this debate, and that is the absolute importance of developing our fostering successfully. In his reply could he just perhaps indicate a little bit more about his thoughts and ambitions as to where that would go, to help us understand his thinking in that regard? Thank you, Mr President. 6450 The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I will try and keep my remarks quite brief; but actually first I would just like to commend the 6455 Hon. Member for this Report. The level of detail in here actually quite surprised me when I opened it. I did not expect it to be quite this … not ‘thorough’, but with quite this much detail and so informative, actually. Really, what I would like to know though is what happens next? The Report identifies a number of challenges being faced by various sections of Government. It identifies key priorities, 6460 and we have heard some very brief remarks from various Members of the Departments talking about how the Report actually pulls out some of these important areas. But I am a little bit surprised that there is not a more formal Government response to the document, because some of the issues identified in here are quite big and they do touch on quite a wide range of other areas that Government is working on. 6465 So it would be nice actually I think in future, if we are going to get this level of detail and this much work from our Children’s Champion, it is only incumbent on Government to say, ‘Yes, we are actually going to respond to this in a formal capacity’. It feels like that would be of benefit. There has been a bit of talk about the role expanding and I think I get the feeling that Hon. Members have missed the point somewhat. I do not think it is the role itself that has 6470 enabled this to happen; it is the ability of the postholder, of Mr Baker to actually provide this concurrent oversight. He is not waiting until the end of a process to pick up the pieces and tell us what went wrong; he is involved in the process as it is ongoing. He is providing that non- executive oversight role as Departments are working on policies to pick up areas, to pick up risk, to pick up challenge. I think that is really what has shown that this is a successful role and is a 6475 successful piece of work. One area that does concern me, however, is the amount of work that must have gone in this Report and that the role is completely unresourced. There is no support. There is no network of support here. These kinds of issues are being identified and pulled out and dealt with because of an individual Member going essentially above and beyond, on top of all of his other 6480 commitments. That worries me because, if you get someone else in the role, actually do you get the same level of quality and detail? Whereas what we should be doing is looking at putting the structures in place that mean it does not really matter who the postholder is, necessarily; you are still getting the same level of value and oversight out of it. I think that is something that needs to be thought about a little bit more perhaps with the involvement of our Tynwald Policy 6485 Review Committees. ______951 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Some of the individual comments in the Report I would like to touch on because I myself would like some more information if it is possible. In the Report, Mr Baker talks about the transition back into DHSC for FPS has resulted in ‘compromised aspects of service delivery’ and I am just wondering if that is a reference to other things that maybe are not covered elsewhere in 6490 his Report, or if it is just a reference to some of the challenges that he has already outlined. That would be interesting to know. I would also like to ask a bit about the stability in staffing. At one point in his Report he mentions that most of the roles that were temporary have now been filled by permanent staff, but later on goes on to say that this stability of staffing is something that is a key priority for the 6495 year going forward. So again a bit of clarity: do we have fully filled roles by permanent staff, or are we still in the transition phase? I was a little bit unclear about that. There was also a comment that by necessity, as we do not have enough foster carers, there are some children being accommodated not in ‘the preferred manner’. Again, I would just like to know what that actually means in reality. Just what does that mean in practice? And again if he 6500 feels it easier to share some of this information after the sitting I am more than happy to wait for a response. One last thing I would like to say to the Hon. Member who moved this is at one point in his Report he says that:
I will monitor and hold accountable FPS in the coming year …
I admire his determination there, but I would just like to reassure the Hon. Member that he is 6505 not alone in this. It is not his sole responsibility to monitor and provide oversight of these functions. It is all of our responsibility. If we are acting as a Government, as a corporate parent, it is not something we can pass on to somebody else. Thank you very much.
6510 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Firstly, I would like to thank the Children’s Champion for his very honest and balanced Report. Looked After Children are amongst the most vulnerable children and young adults on 6515 our Island. We are responsible, not only for their care and well-being, but also the work towards ensuring that every child has an equal opportunity in life. I was surprised and, to say the very least, concerned when I became a Member of the Department of Education, Sport and Culture to find that no information was available with regard to our Looked After Children – their progress or their attainment. The Department is now 6520 collecting and analysing this data and this information will be used to provide better educational outcomes for our Looked After Children. And, importantly, this information is shared with the Corporate Parenting Group and the Safeguarding Board on a termly basis. As Mr Baker has already said, DESC has appointed a virtual head teacher and Mr Baker’s support undoubtedly helped to achieve this. A new system for personal education plans was 6525 introduced in February 2019 and this is being monitored for quality and effectiveness. Although it is in its early stages and it is a work in progress it is a very positive step forward. A crucial aspect of the PEP process is consulting the child and hearing the child’s voice in the document itself. This information is also fed into the Corporate Parenting Group, and it has to be said that the Corporate Parenting Group, chaired by the Children’s Champion, has become far more 6530 proactive in tackling the issues around the whole area of Looked After Children. There is so much more to do, but I have confidence that I can rely on Mr Baker in his role as Children’s Champion not only to support but to help drive the change that is needed to improve the educational provision for our Looked After Children.
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6535 The President: I call on Mr Baker to reply.
Mr Baker: Thank you very much, Mr President; and thank you everybody who has spoken. It is actually quite humbling in a way to receive some of those comments. I do take the role extremely seriously. I think it is really important and I think the great thing 6540 is that this Hon. Court recognises how important it is and how important these young people are. That is the message; and it is a pity that the Gallery here is not packed and there are not thousands of people listening to this debate because I think this is Tynwald at its finest, it is the Isle of Man at its finest and people need to hear this and know that we are serious about this. I will try and respond as best I can to the comments, but if I miss anything or anybody has got 6545 questions that I do not cover adequately, please let me know and I will try and get back to you afterwards. Mr Thomas, thank you for your supportive comments and for the confirmation that the Action Plan is being updated and being monitored through the SPCC Sub-Committee of CoMin, which effectively embeds the response to some of these issues into governance processes, and 6550 gives me some confidence that actually we are not just reporting and debating here but actually this is going to drive some improved outcomes. I also heard Mr Thomas’s personal commitment to the better outcomes for these young people and to follow up the issues that were raised in this debate, and I think there were quite a lot and Hansard will be very, very valuable in that. So thank you. 6555 Mr Ashford, again a very positive response and he highlighted the engagement; and I think engagement is the only way to achieve this type of thing in this role, and it is about the balance between supporting and challenging. It is very easy to criticise and to beat people with a stick, but that is not how you get the best reaction from them in a workplace or in any other environments. Equally, we cannot be too soft and too understanding because there are people 6560 whose lives out there are impacted by our action, or inaction. This is a serious business. The Minister highlighted a strategic focus of the Corporate Parenting Group, and that is the only way to add real value. If these forums are too much in amongst the weeds, you are missing the point. It has got to be about changing things and, as Mr Hooper added later on, it is about embedding these things so that they are sustainable and they are not dependent on individuals. 6565 We have seen in all areas across Government where people change and things just lapse because they were not embedded. We really need to embed what we do to drive process and outcomes. I was very heartened to hear the Minister acknowledge his discomfort with the growth in the number of our young people that are accommodated in residential care. That is not in any sense 6570 a negative on St Christopher’s who provide those services, I am absolutely certain of that. But actually there is, particularly for younger children, some real ‘discomfort’, I think is probably the word, around the younger children that we have in residential care. Mr Hooper asked for a particular detail and we have, from the latest information, three children of primary school age who are accommodated in residential care; and that is not best practice, it is something that 6575 needs to be addressed. But pragmatically sometimes you have to do things that you do not wish to do and that is the outworking of the constraints that the service is under. It is really important that the family home being the best environment has been acknowledged by the Minister, because I think that is something that we all we all believe; and we need to hold to that and set our stall out to achieve the best that we possibly can. I think 6580 there are solutions out there. Commitment to action from the Minister and the assurance that Children and Families is both essential and will not be affected by the transformation process is really encouraging. As is the honesty in acknowledging, as I have tried to be in the Report, that actually we start from a low base and we do need to improve significantly. Mrs Poole-Wilson emphasised the importance of data and monitoring. You cannot do 6585 anything without data and it does not have to be overly complicated. It is about taking what you
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have got and drawing on it and actually putting it into a form that is consistent, and you can track trends and hold people, and teams, and Departments accountable for what is going on. I completely endorse her comments that we need to be prepared to try things and if things do not work we should not look at who should be blamed for this, we should not be saying what 6590 a disaster this is. We should just be saying, ‘Okay, what do we learn from this? How do we move forward? What bits of it did work? And, if none of it worked, why didn’t it work?’ And what are the learning points from that to create not just a learning organisation but a learning Island? So I think that, and Mrs Poole-Wilson’s point around opportunity for cross-departmental roles, are things that we need to take out from this and reflect on and bring back in perhaps a 6595 thought-through way. Dr Allinson, again thank you for your positive comments for the importance of the corporate parenting role, and that other jurisdictions have more formal provision around corporate parenting, particularly around legislation. That is something that I think we would be well advised, to move in that direction. He highlighted the need for a cultural change around the 6600 relationship with foster carers and the support that they need. I would absolutely endorse that and, having spent a lot of time with foster carers, it is very sad to see the lack of trust and confidence that those very central people have in Government and in – I am sad to say – the Department and the Family Placement Service. That has to be rebuilt: we cannot have a fostering service without foster carers, they are fundamental to it. They give of themselves over 6605 and above. They are not doing it for the money; they are doing it to make a difference for those young people. And I think sometimes you can lose sight of that. Dr Allinson also highlighted the adoption legislation. The Department has that on its legislative programme and I am assured that there is real commitment to bringing it forward, and the further changes to the Children and Young Persons Act. Again, this is something that the 6610 Corporate Parenting Group has as a standing item. And, yes, I agree that hopefully this is a catalyst for change. Mrs Sharpe, the Member of the Department with responsibility for Children and Families, thank you very much for your comments about the approach – direct, clear, open and honest. If we cannot be like that in Tynwald then where can we be? Absolutely, that is how we should be 6615 and I welcome the fact that these findings, which are in many ways quite hard-hitting and direct, have been acknowledged by both the Minister and Mrs Sharpe. I take a very positive encouragement from the commitment to address these issues and to build and move forward, particularly the community-based foster system which Mrs Sharpe mentioned; and very, very importantly the engagement with foster carers and embedding them into this decision to take 6620 the new approach and to get their hearts and minds on board. Her assurance that the Division is listening and that it will get it right, I think that needs to be taken on board, but it needs to be delivered against. Miss August-Hanson, again thank you for your positivity and for the comments you have made. I am not sure about whether we can bottle the approach, but certainly I think there is 6625 something in what has been achieved over the last 18 months that perhaps there are some positive learnings from. I think it would be worth talking to the officers who are part of the Corporate Parenting Group and trying to understand what it is that collectively we have managed to do, because it is a team effort and people actually want to be there; and people who had previously disengaged from that group have actually started to come back to it. So 6630 there is something good going on there, but let’s hear it from those who are actually at the coalface and who live and breathe this five days a week, or seven days a week. You are absolutely right: cross-Government work has to be the way forward. You linked it to the work of the Equality Champion, Mrs Poole-Wilson, and there are similarities and there are differences. I think when I come on to Mr Hooper’s comments, there are some resources for the 6635 Equality Champion, and there are not any resources for the Children’s Champion – they are just different. But there is something in this that needs exploring and working through (A Member: Hear, hear.) to what can we make of this? ______954 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
As a champion you can be a catalyst, but it is about the people that are responding to it, and that is what we need to do. ‘Best practice’ was the phrase Miss August-Hanson used and that is 6640 one that we absolutely need to aspire to. Mrs Lord-Brennan, aware of the depth of foster care issues – there has clearly been some engagement there. There are some deep issues and many of these issues go back a lot of years. It always takes time to change perceptions and to change attitudes, but the journey starts with a single step. I think we have started the journey but there is so much more to go. But the foster 6645 carers must feel valued and there must be a trust relationship between them and the Department. They cannot feel as though there is a cloud over them and that they have to be very guarded in how they engage with the Department, which I know to be the case at the moment. The value that those people bring has to be acknowledged and, Mrs Lord-Brennan, thank you for doing that. 6650 You talked about my view on broadening the role of Children’s Champion. I think part of the reason that the role as I have had it works is because it is clearly defined and there is a very focused remit; and I endeavour to stick to that as best I can. So if you were to broaden the existing role I think you do risk diluting it. However, you talk about the UN Convention on the Rights the Child, and I think perhaps you are talking about maybe something along the lines of a 6655 Children’s Commissioner. I do not know, there may be something in that. I think again it needs exploring and developing outside; I certainly think we should be thinking about these things. But I think the champion role potentially has legs in other contexts, not just around children. So we do need to explore that. Mr Robertshaw, again, thank you. You talked about further expansion of the role and also of 6660 interdepartmental roles, and again the same themes are emerging from a number of contributors. You asked about my thoughts and ambitions of developing the fostering service. Clearly the Department needs to deliver and respond to the issues that have been raised by the foster carers in particular. They have got a very comprehensive document which the leadership team have and the political Members have. We need to see some clear response to that; we 6665 need to see some timely action; we need to see better engagement with the foster carers, individually and as a body. There has been great progress about stabilising the team and there is pretty much a permanent and fully fledged team in place now. We absolutely have to understand what drove the instability and make sure that we are addressing that. Social workers, you know there is a 6670 limited capability to grow them on the Island. There must be lessons to be learnt about the turnover of social work staff and I would hope that the Department would have those conversations. They need to be having honest, open conversations of trust with the foster carers. I would like to see the recruitment of new foster carers. We really need it now. They have to 6675 be appropriately brought on into the system, but we need the capacity now. We cannot change it without that capacity. We need to see the role of foster carers explicitly valued and acknowledged. It is very much a hidden group of people. They are in all our communities across the Island; they are working away; they are going the extra mile; they are giving of themselves. We need to acknowledge that and really value that collectively. 6680 Mr Hooper, again, thank you. You expressed surprise that the Report was quite as thorough. Yes, thank you for that. What happens next? Clearly as Children’s Champion I carry on doing what I am doing which is being active, being engaged with the relevant officers; monthly meetings with Debbie Brayshaw, but more frequent conversations in between; meeting with the Chair of the Safeguarding Board, 6685 Glenys Johnston, on a regular basis; chairing the Corporate Parenting Group; being a focal point for foster carers, etc. Those things will carry on, that scrutiny is not going to go away. I am expecting the Department to really deliver in response to the issues that have been raised and the governance around that is going to pick up if they do not. So I am not going to go away! (The Speaker: Hear, hear!) (A Member: Absolutely!) ______955 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
6690 Mr Hooper used a lovely phrase, ‘concurrent oversight’ and likened it to a non-executive role, which I thought was really interesting. I do think there are some parallels with that or even maybe with perhaps school governor roles that I have seen, perhaps not on the Island but certainly in the UK, where it is a critical friend. There are two parts to that description and both of them are important. You have got to be prepared to be critical but you are there as an ally; 6695 but you have got a purpose and the purpose is to enhance the outcomes. You are not there to make everything appear what it isn’t; you are there to drive better outcomes. I do think there is something in this that we would be wise to work on. Support resources and structures to embed this, are points well made. You also asked for some comments about the element of my Report where I talked about the transition 6700 compromising the service and that was really about the Department essentially having to stop things, to ensure that foundations were solid before they move forward. And a particular symptom of that was the non-recruitment of foster carers where they said, ‘We can’t bring new foster carers on board until we have got a stable situation’. Now, a stable situation has taken a lot longer than I expected and, as the officers have 6705 acknowledged, than they expected. When you change a structure effectively insourcing something that has been outsourced – something that was not particularly well understood by the Department as to what it was actually getting, and the shape it was in, and something that was not in the best of order – it is a challenge to bring it on board and to change it; and to do the day job at the same time within a Department that is going through a lot of change as well. 6710 Perhaps with hindsight there needed to be more of a turnaround mindset within the Children and Families Division; maybe there needed to be some additional support for the senior management of Children and Families. I do not know what conversations went on, but certainly it has taken longer and it has been more difficult, and it is very dependent on a small number of key individuals driving it forward. 6715 The stability of the staffing has definitely improved. Initially it was about just getting people in to fill gaps where there were gaps in the service that was inherited from the Children’s Centre. Inevitably there is quite a high level of churn when you are doing that, and that was on the back of a service that had a lot of churn when it was in the Children’s Centre. So it was never stable. You asked about my statement about children not being treated in the preferred manner. 6720 That is very much about the number and age of children that are going into residential care, and some very short-term decisions to commission some additional capacity within residential, and also some decisions where foster carers have actually agreed to take additional children when they would normally maybe have one and they have taken two. They are very short-term decisions, very much a pragmatic response, very much reflecting the fact that there is not 6725 enough capacity. It is difficult and I am not criticising any of those individual decisions, but the bigger picture, the systemic issues, are the root causes of the problem; but the outworking of that is you have got children in care who are perhaps not being accommodated in the way that they should be. And there will be consequences for that. 6730 Finally, thank you for reminding me that there is a bigger team around than this and I guess there is something to be thought about around how the Children’s Champion links into the Scrutiny Committee, and is there a mechanism around that? But then does that actually undermine some of the relationship with the officers at the sharp end? I do not know, but it needs thinking about. 6735 Finally, I think Mrs Corlett is the only one I have not mentioned. Thank you for your comments, speaking from the educational point of view and endorsing the fact that there was no visibility around this group of young people, and that has been recognised and it is being addressed. The virtual head teacher role is a big commitment and thank you for endorsing the fact that 6740 actually the Corporate Parenting Group and my own input has driven that, because that will change outcomes for those young people. And for the endorsement that the Corporate ______956 T137 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 21st JANUARY 2020
Parenting Group is far more proactive than it was, which again reinforces my own perspective. But, as Mrs Corlett concluded, there is so much more to do and I will continue to both support and drive that in my role as Children’s Champion. 6745 And with that, Mr President, I beg to move.
Several Members: Hear, hear.
The President: I put the motion that the Children’s Champion Annual Report 2018-19 be 6750 received. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 24, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford None Mr Moorhouse Dr Allinson Mr Baker Mrs Barber Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Miss Costain Mr Cregeen Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Malarkey Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 24 votes for, no votes against
In the Council – Ayes 9, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Miss August-Hanson None Mr Cretney Mr Crookall Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
The President: And in Council, 9 for and none against. The motion carries unanimously. Thank you, Hon. Members, the Court will now stand adjourned until 10.30 a.m. tomorrow morning.
The Court adjourned at 8.41 p.m. ______957 T137