CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, NORTHRIDGE

PARENTS OF A CERTAIN AGE:

A PODCAST FOR OLDER PEOPLE BECOMING FIRST-TIME PARENTS

A graduate project submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements

For the degree of Master of Science in Counseling,

Marriage and Family Therapy

By

Michael Randleman

December 2014

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The graduate project of Michael Randleman is approved:

______

Dr. Ian Russ, Ph.D. Date

______

Anne Galbraith, M.A. Date

______

Dr. Dana Stone, Ph.D., Chair Date

California State University, Northridge

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DEDICATION

Dedicated to my beautiful wife, Diane Goldner with whom, in February, 2013, I became a “parent of a certain age.” And to Max Elijah Randleman, who took a long time to get here, but we are so happy you came.

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ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

First, I would like to thank my committee members who guided this seed of an idea to its current incarnation. One could not have paid for better advice, guidance and support. I am truly blessed to have this triumvirate of knowledge and experience. The best decision I made when I first entered CSUN was one that I had no clue about at the time. Before starting I had to select an instructor for my Practicum A class. From a list of names of teachers of whom I had no knowledge of, I selected the newest faculty member in the department, Dr. Dana Stone. I can safely say that decision kept me going at times when I was questioning what I was doing in school at age 50 with a wife then three months pregnant. Without her compassion, encouragement and enthusiasm, I doubt I would have made it to the second semester. Dr. Stone was the only choice to chair this project and though the process was often rocky, (academic writing style being an anathema to me), through her hard work I feel the vision of the project became clearer and, more importantly, actionable. Next, I am honored that my first training supervisor Anne Galbraith of OPICA Adult Day Care Center agreed to be on my committee. I will always be indebted to her patience and kindness while I proceeded through the labyrinth of the DSS, holding my position open for the six months it took to get agency approval. My experience at OPICA under her tutelage was life-changing and I hope our paths cross often in my career as a therapist. Finally, there was another happy accident that I know was no accident; I landed in Dr. Ian Russ’ class the summer of my first year at CSUN. His knowledge, his vast and varied experiences in the field and his skill as a storyteller has made him an unacknowledged mentor to me. It is with great appreciation that I acknowledge the support and hard work of each member, without whom this project would not have been possible. Second, I would like to salute the fellow members of the CSUN 2012 co-hort. It was a wonderful ride and your support was invaluable to me. Your kindness, your help and excitement when my son was born during the second semester will never be forgotten. Your support and listening when later that year my father passed away will also never be forgotten. I would not have made it without you. In particular, I want to thank my fellow “Stoneys,” Amy K. (my first friend), Hovsep, Marianna, Laura R., Amy B, Kellie, Laura W. and Fabiola (who is the official photographer of Max Elijah. Her photos appear throughout this project). Finally, I want to thank my family. I can never give enough thanks to my wife, Diane. We did not go into this marriage six years ago knowing that my longtime publishing job would disappear and my acting work would dry up. A lesser woman would have bailed, with good reason. But she hasn’t and despite having to carry the financial ball for the family while writing books and having a baby, she is a rock. I also want to thank my mother, Diane Randleman who is always there for me and always encouraging me. I am glad she gets to play grandma with my child, something I never thought would happen. I am blessed with truly wonderful in-laws, Howard and Roslyn Goldner, who are always encouraging and generous with their love and support. To my sister, Julie Randleman, to whom I grow closer with each passing year. And, finally to my long-departed grandmother, Lillian Randleman, the town librarian of Rector, Arkansas for sixty-years. She instilled a love of learning and a love of books in me that has served me all my life. I love you all.

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

Signature page ii

Dedication iii

Acknowledgements iv

Abstract vi

Chapter 1: Introduction 1

Chapter 2: Review of the Literature 8

Chapter 3: Project Audience and Implementation Factors 53

Chapter 4: Conclusion 59

References 65

Appendix 86

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ABSTRACT

PARENTS OF A CERTAIN AGE:

A PODCAST FOR OLDER PEOPLE BECOMING FIRST-TIME PARENTS

By

Michael Randleman

Master of Science in Counseling,

Marriage and Family Therapy

Between 2008 and 2012, the number of women over the age of 50 who gave birth doubled. While there have always been fathers of a certain age, Mother Nature put a biological time clock on motherhood. However, science is challenging Mother Nature these days with remarkable advances in the field of fertility. These scientific and medical developments (including in vitro fertilization (IVF) and the use of donor eggs) have opened “the baby window” that often closed for most women in their early-to-mid 40s and have created a whole world of old “new” parents. The purpose of this project was to create a podcast for these new parents to both entertain and keep them informed of the latest developments in this fast-changing area of society. Specifically, the podcast will provide relevant research concerning the topic of late-onset parenting as well as looking at the new societal and psychological impact these developments bring forth as these parents work to get their children out of diapers before they end up in diapers.

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CHAPTER 1: INTRODUCTION

Alec Baldwin, Steve Martin, David Letterman. 55, 67, 56. Those numbers are not celebrity Q ratings measuring popularity. Those are the ages at which each became a father, either for the first time or, in the case of Baldwin, a return to fatherhood after a 22- year break. This is not an entirely new phenomenon, as Charlie Chaplin lived up to his

Little Tramp character and fathered a baby at 74 and Tony Randall was one of an odd couple who had a child when he was 76. It should be noted that the partners of these men, the women who actually gave birth, were usually much younger. Unlike the biological time clock that Mother Nature placed on motherhood, a man has a shot (if he could shoot) to beat the biological clock up to the final buzzer of death.

However, science is challenging Mother Nature these days and the roll call of

Hollywood A-list women having babies while pushing the half-century mark is growing.

In January of 2014, four-time Emmy award winner, Laura Linney gave birth to her first child just shy of her 50th birthday. She joined a growing list of Hollywood older moms giving birth who included Susan Sarandon (46), Halle Berry (47) and Kelly Preston (48, a.k.a. Ms. John Travolta). These celebrity moms could almost be called underachievers by giving birth to just a singleton. The list of older mothers having twins includes

Beverly D’Angelo (age 49 with 65 year-old father Al Pacino), Holly Hunter (47), and

Geena Davis (48). Jane Seymour, Marcia Gay Harden, and Marcia Cross all had twins at

45. But former swimsuit model and magazine cover girl, Cheryl Tiegs raised the age bar by having twins at 52.

While celebrity mothers are often the face of this sociological shift, the numbers show the phenomena of older mothers (and older parents) are increasing across the

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country. Statistics from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) for 2008, show birth rates dropping in the age brackets from teenagers to women in their thirties. The age bracket that is the exception to this downturn is the one age group that, biologically, should be dropping, or, at the most, staying steady (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

[CDC], 2010). Contrarily, the numbers for women over the age of 40 were on the rise, with the 40-44-age bracket up over 4%, the highest rate since 1967 (Hamilton, Martin &

Ventura, 2009). Additionally within this rising group is the growing number of first-time mothers.

On the male side of the equation, the CDC reported that by 2009 2.9 of every

1,000 men who became new fathers were 50 or older and that the number is still climbing

(Hamilton et al., 2009).

Statement of the Problem

What is usually unspoken, much to the consternation of fertility doctors whose offices are filled with women in their late-40s wanting to be the next Halle Berry, is the process used by many of the celebrity women of a certain age to realize their dreams of motherhood. The chances of a 44-year old woman conceiving with her own eggs is 1.6 percent (Klipstein, Regan, Ryley, Goldman, Alper, 2005). And since fertility experts say that becoming pregnant after the age of 45 using one’s own eggs is the equivalent of winning the lottery (Matthiessen, n.d.), it is almost certain that these celebrity mothers gave birth using donor eggs. This is just one of the remarkable advances in the field of fertility. While there have always been fathers of a “certain age” (late 40’s and older), these scientific and medical advances have opened “the baby window” that closed for most women in their early-to-mid 40s (Levitis & Cohen, 2013). Women who delayed

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motherhood for whatever reason--career, the advent of birth control, or delayed marriage-

-often found that aging presented issues of reduced and/or challenged fertility (Rindfuss

& Brewster, 2000). However, these rapid advancements, including in vitro fertilization

(IVF) and the use of donor eggs, have jarred that baby window open and it is now common to see the waiting room of an OBY-GN filled with women from a wide range of ages (Assisted reproductive technologies, n.d.).

However, the ramifications of this “resetting” of the biological clock are still to be determined and the questions about the new influx of older parents are growing. The topic of older parents with infants is just starting to be examined in the areas of parenting and child development with the long-term effects still unknown. In the broader arena of public opinion, the reaction to the measures taken by the new parents is far from positive with these parents often described as selfish. But the fact is the number of older parents are growing and the information about the challenges facing these “grandparently” parents is lacking.

Statement of Purpose

In the past fifty years, some of the fundamental tenets of American society (marry young, have children, mom stays at home to watch the kids while dad goes to work) have been upended. Over this time frame, the average age of grooms and brides went from 23 and 20 to 28 and 26, respectively (Kreider & Ellis, 2011). Several catalysts for this upending include the changing role of women in society and the workplace, the creation of contraceptives, and a population that is living longer (McGoldrick, Carter, & Garcia-

Preto, 2011). For the generation of women who were told “you can have it all,” only to wake up one day “not having it all,” the latest scientific advances give these women (and

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their partners) a way, albeit, not the traditional way and, in the view of many in society, not the ideal way of realizing their dreams of being a parent.

The purpose of this research project is to develop a podcast with a focus on the challenges facing older parents, who in a way, are working to get their child out of diapers before they, themselves, end up in diapers. This podcast will be called “The Old

Dad.”

The goal of “The Old Dad” podcast is to engage these parents with topics that are enlightening and entertaining. Topics covered will include thought provoking questions such as: whether having a child at an advanced age is a positive development or just the selfish actions of people who missed the boat the first time around. What are the possible stigmas a child of older parents might face? And, if there is stigma, what steps can be taken to minimize it? “What are the effects of losing a parent on a young child?”

Statistically the chances of a child losing a parent goes up when that parent is in their fifties at the time of the child’s birth. When these, and other yet-to-be-determined issues rise to be addressed, “The Old Dad” podcast will do just that.

Like it or not, the issue of men and women becoming parents at older ages is not going to go away. The Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology (SART) reported

165,172 IVF procedures were performed in 2012 which resulted in 61,740 babies being born (SART, 2013). This was an increase of more than 2,000 IVF babies being born than had been in 2011. In total there were around 3.9 million babies born in the United

States in 2012 and IVF babies represented 1.5% of the total births.

There is a need to meet the challenges and services these older parents and their offspring may face and it would be a disservice to this population not to address the

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issues these parents will face. This project will shine a light and explore a new and uncertain area of family development. Since there is little or limited research in this area, this work will contribute to a previously uncharted field and possibly be heard and used by clinicians, therapists, and prospective parents everywhere computers are available.

Definition of Terms

Artificial Reproductive Technology (ART) – ART includes all fertility treatments in which both eggs and sperm are handled. ART procedures involve surgically removing eggs from a woman’s ovaries, combining them with sperm in the laboratory, and returning them to the woman’s body or donating them to another woman (Centers for

Disease Control and Prevention [CDC], 2014).

Artificial insemination – A treatment for infertility where sperm are inserted directly into a woman's cervix, fallopian tubes, or uterus. This makes the trip shorter for the sperm and bypasses any possible obstructions (Concise Medical Dictionary, 2010).

Assortative mating – the tendency of people with similar characteristics to marry each other (Picker, 2014).

Bipolar disorder – A common clinically severe and episodic mood disorder.

Bipolar disorder is a serious health problem associated with suicidality, comorbidity, and substance abuse (Müller-Oerlinghausen, Berghöfer, & Bauer, 2002).

Couple – Two persons married, engaged, or otherwise romantically paired

(Merriam-Webster, 2008).

de novo mutations – An alteration in a gene that is present for the first time in one family member as a result of a mutation in a germ cell (egg or sperm) of one of the parents or in the fertilized egg itself (Malaspina, 2001).

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Down syndrome – A genetic disorder caused when abnormal cell division results in genetic material from chromosome 21. This genetic disorder, which varies in severity, causes lifelong intellectual disability and developmental delays, and in some people it causes health problems (Roizen & Patterson, 2003).

Intra-cytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) – Injecting a single sperm directly into an egg in order to fertilize it. The fertilized egg (embryo) is then transferred to the woman’s womb (Wong & Ledger, 2013).

In Vitro Fertilization (IVF) – The process of fertilization by manually combining an egg and sperm in a laboratory dish (Assisted reproductive technologies, n.d.).

Infertility – The inability to get pregnant despite having frequent, unprotected sex for at least a year for most people and six months in certain circumstances (Infertility

FAQs, 2013).

Late-onset parenthood – Term for new fathers over the age 40 (Carnoy & Carnoy,

1995).

Marriage – The state of being united to a person as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (Merriam-Webster, 2008).

Oocyte donation (a.k.a egg donation) – A woman who provides her own eggs for another woman or couple to use in creating a pregnancy through in vitro fertilization

(Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health,

Seventh Edition, 2003).

Schizophrenia – A long-term mental disorder involving a breakdown in the relation between thought, emotion, and behavior, leading to faulty perception, inappropriate actions and feelings, withdrawal from reality and personal relationships

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into fantasy and delusion, and a sense of mental fragmentation (Malaspina, Harlap,

Fennig, Heiman, Gorman, et al., 2000).

Test tube baby - A baby developed from an egg that was fertilized outside the body and then implanted in the uterus of the biological or surrogate mother (Kamel,

2013).

Summary

The following chapter includes an extensive literature review that explores the reasons for, the risk of, and the science behind this new wave of older parents. The relational aspect of first, becoming a couple and second, becoming a parent will be explored. The chapter will also look at the technological advances in the area of fertility treatment that opened the gates for older mothers. Furthermore, the chapter will also examine the evolving state of fatherhood, once the province of the stern, breadwinner to its current state of supportive “co-parent” and close with a look at the heightened physical and developmental risk possibly faced by the children of older fathers. Chapter Three will discuss the specifics of the podcast and its role in a greater vision of serving this new and growing population. There will be information on the development of the project, the intended format of the podcast and the intended audience for the project. In Chapter

Four, there will be an evaluation of the project and discussion of the project’s process and progress. Finally, the Appendix will consist of transcripts of three completed episodes created and hosted by the author.

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CHAPTER 2: REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE

Becoming a Couple

In the study of the cycles of life, one rite of passage marker is the coming together of two people to form a couple. Merriam-Webster defines a couple as two people who are married, engaged, or otherwise closely associated romantically or sexually (Merriam-

Webster's on-line dictionary, n.d.), Marriage is a multigenerational communal event and while the main attraction is the new couple, marriage symbolizes a change in status among all family members and generations and requires that the couple negotiate new relationships as a twosome with many other subsystems; parents, siblings, grandparents, nieces, nephews, and friends (McGoldrick, Carter, & Garcia-Preto, 2011).

McGoldrick (2011) states that one of the most interpersonally difficult life transitions is that of becoming a couple. Furthermore, this transition is made harder by a society that has romanticized marriage and has a view of wedlock as the most joyous of the cycles. More than any other life transition, marriage is viewed as the solution to life’s problems of loneliness, work and career uncertainty, or extended family difficulties

(McGoldrick, et al., 2011). These idealized notions can create relationship challenges to which newlyweds can be susceptible, putting the couple at risk for disillusionment with the marriage (Huston, Caughlin, Houts, Smith, & George, 2001).

Hall and Adams (2011) examined the attitudes of 21 couples who were married less than year, a few practical challenges to these idealized notions of marriage were identified. After the initial honeymoon period, six major themes emerged that complicated the view of idyllic marital bliss. The four themes of note include a) “the little things,” i.e. the day-to-day elements and unknown quirks that couples don’t

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anticipate before marriage, b) competing loyalties—particularly with in-laws and families of origin, c) letdowns—the disappointments with the realities of marriage and d) sex— either expectations (several subjects were virgins before marriage) or frequency (often significantly less than before the marriage).

There are varied reasons people couple and eventually marry. Most marriages have an emotional component. This can be either a positive emotion (the love a couple shares compels them to want to spend the rest of their lives together) or a negative emotion (fear of being alone for the rest of one’s life) (Mayntz, n.d.). There are legal advantages to being married, particularly in matters of parenting. In some faiths a marriage is required for the union to be recognized before the eyes of God. Thus marriage is more than just a civil ceremony, but a sacred religious ceremony. Finally, though living together and open commitments are more common and have fewer stigmas than in the past, modern society puts a heavy price on the firm commitment of a marriage ceremony. This pressure can be particularly strong from parents, relatives and even other married friends (Mayntz, n.d.)

Furthermore, several recent meta-analyses have highlighted the positive effects that can come from a walk down the aisle. Prouix, Helms & Buehler (2007) reviewed 93 studies on marriage. The analysis found evidence that indicated having a satisfying marriage is a strong predictor of life satisfaction as well as better well-being.

Furthermore, the researchers found that the higher the level of marital quality, the more optimum the level of personal well-being,

Conversely, if there is distress in the marriage, the risks of psychiatric disorders for each member of the couple are heightened. In 2007, a survey of 2,213 married

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individuals showed that martial distress was associated with a) anxiety, mood disorders, as well as substance use disorders and b) bipolar disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, and alcohol use disorders. As the individual with psychiatric disorders grows older, the greater the magnitude of major depressive disorder (Whisman, 2007). This conflict also increased the likelihood of problems for the children (Amato, 1994).

There have always been challenges in being a couple but the past fifty years have brought developments that have fundamentally redefined marriage. These developments include the changing role of women in society and the workplace, the availability of contraceptives, and a population that is both more mobile and who are living longer

(McGoldrick, et al., 2011). Those developments add up to this: men and women are having sex earlier, but marrying later than ever before. These changes are butting up against strong historical precedent.

Marriage

Marriage exists in every era, every culture and every religion (Corbett, 2010).

However, in 2007, a New York Times front page headline announced that a watershed mark had taken place in America in 2005. For the first time in the history of the United

States, a majority of adult women (51%) were living without a spouse. These women had either never married, they had been divorced or separated, or they were living apart from their husbands for some other reason (Roberts & Ariel Sabar, 2007). Only five years earlier, the percentage of women living without a spouse was 49% and going back to

1950, the number of unmarried women was just 35% (Pew Research Center, 2010). The irony is in a country where the concept of marriage is held dearly, often with words like sacred and holy, married couples have become a minority. Today the average American

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spends half their adult lives outside of marriage and, with the opportunities for couples to become bonded increasing (i.e., living together without marrying), the institution of marriage in the United States is less dominant than at any other time in history (Cherlin,

2004). The main reason for this statistical watershed was not higher divorce rates. At the time the report was released, the divorce rate had not only topped out, but had actually declined slightly over the previous decade. And, the reason was not a rejecting of the institution of marriage as 90% of Americans will eventually marry (fifty years ago the rate was 95%). The biggest reason is one of the same reasons for the increase in the number of older parents; people are marrying at a later age (Coontz, 2006).

In 1950, the median marriage age for women was just over 20 (Cohn, Passel,

Wang, & Livingston, 2011). Researchers examining changes in marriage and marital childbearing from 1940 through the end of the twentieth century, found in the fifty years between 1950 and 2000, that the normal links of the family systems regarding marriage and childbearing weakened as marriage evolved, economic opportunities grew, and family planning options improved (Hayford, Guzzo, & Smock, 2014).

Furthermore, the Pew Research Center report on marriage during this fifty-year time frame, found the percentage of women ages 15-to-24 that were married sank from

42% to 16% (Cohn, 2011). In the 25-to-34-age category the proportion of married individuals dropped from 82% to 58%. These trends were also illustrated by the increase in the average age of men and women getting married. In 1960, the average age of grooms was 23 and the average age of brides was 20 and half of all women married before they left their teens. A half century later that average had risen to 28 and 26, respectively and for women who pursue graduate degrees the average age of marriage is

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30 (Kreider & Ellis, 2011). This compared to the 1950s, where a woman who was unmarried four to five years after the average age at which her peers married, was likely to stay unmarried. The Japanese called these women "Christmas Cake,” as in “unlikely to be taken off the shelf after the 25th” (Coontz, 2006).

In spite of these trends, Americans belief in marriage remains high (highest among Western societies) and most Americans want to marry, most do marry, and most want to raise their children within marriage (Hayford, 2014). As well, the commitment to marriage on the part of the state governments is illustrated by the launching of community-based initiatives by more than 40 states with the purpose of supporting marriage and strengthening couple relationships (Dion, 2005). Paradoxically, Americans also lead the western world in divorce rates as well as having the most-rapid “breaking up” of cohabiting couples (Cherlin, 2009).

Marriage used to be the starting point for the launching of adult life, but more and more is being delayed until a person is financially stable or more established in their career. Marriage is declining across all demographics, but is declining slower in the category of people with higher education. Pew Research Center’s statistics from 2010 revealed that 69% of college graduates were married versus 56% of non-college graduates (Pew Research Center, 2010). This relationship between marital status and education has changed considerably over time and between the genders. In 1960, men of various levels of education were about equally likely to have never been married. A half- century later, there is a large disparity in the percentage of “never married” between men with high school educations versus men with higher education. One quarter of the men with only a high school education was unmarried compared with only 14% of college

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graduates who were unwed. Conversely, in 1960, women with advanced degrees were over four times as likely to have never married versus women with a high school education (31% to 7%). In 2014, that gap has closed and the percentages were almost equal (18% to 17%) (Wang & Parker, 2014).

Furthermore, there is strong evidence that people who are educated are more likely to marry someone who is also educated (Fry & Cohn, 2010). Both college- educated men and women are increasingly less likely to choose mates who have less education and professional standing than they do. The transition is so notable that social scientists say that marriage is becoming the self-selected province of college-educated and affluent persons. This tendency for educated, affluent people to marry each other is called assortative mating. In 2005, over 50% of native born Americans were married to a partner whose education level was the same as their own (Fry, et al., 2010).

Marrying later in life

In 2012, roughly one third of “Baby Boomers” (babies born between 1945 and

1964) were unmarried (Brown & Li, 2012), but little is known about partnering, be it marriage or dating, in later life (Cooney & Dunne, 2001). The literature on sexual partnering overwhelmingly looks at younger adults, (those in their teens through mid-

20s). Sassler (2010) shows that current research looking at the transition from being single to shared living for slightly older Americans is woefully lacking and that there is room for study in area. This lack of data poses challenges in exploring both the aspirations and the behaviors of older adults.

Becoming a Parent

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After becoming a couple, a natural step for many is to have children. Of course, one does not have to be married to have a child and the proportion of children born outside the confines of marriage is rapidly growing. In 2011, there were 3,953,590 births in the United States. Just fewer than 60% of those births were to married women

(Martin, Hamilton, Ventura, Osterman, & Mathews, 2013). Still, most Americans believe that marriage is the most appropriate setting for raising children (Pew Research

Center, 2010). This belief that marriage is the preferable setting for childbearing might be one of the few remaining incentives to marry (Lichter, 2012).

The reasons for having children are varied. A quick google search of “reasons people have children,” resulted in many articles on reasons not to have children, however, the cited reasons for procreating for some people is the feeling that having a baby is a natural desire in human nature and for others that having a baby is to have a scion to carry on the family name. Some see a child as an embodiment of a couple’s love and others as something as practical as a future caretaker to take care of the parents in their old age (McGoldrick, 2011).

Half a century ago, the conventional wisdom was that having a child was the surest way to build a happy marriage. This attitude is best summed up with a passage that appeared in 1944 in Better Homes and Gardens that read “Once a child arrives, we don’t worry about this couple anymore. There are three in that family now. ... Perhaps there is not much more needed in a recipe for happiness.” (Coontz, 2009). For decades, the view of a happy home was a married couple having a brood of children with the father off to work and the mother taking care of the home and, indeed, marriage research from the 1970s and 1980s showed that having shared biological children was positively

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associated with marital stability (Heaton & Pratt, 1990). However, in 2010, that once- idealized scenario made up only 20% of families in the United States, down from 40% just 40 years earlier. Still this image casts a long shadow over both our educational and work worlds as each environment attempts to accommodate that vision, (Cohn, et al,

2014).

Waiting Longer for Babies

In addition to delaying marriage, another reason for the increase in older parents is that women are also waiting longer to have children (the potential issues that can arise from this delay will be visited in the section on fertility issues). In 1991, the changing times were illustrated when the average age of a woman’s first marriage exceeded the average of age of a woman’s first birth (Arroyo, Payne, Brown & Manning, 2012).

Until the advent of the family planning methods of the early 1960s, such as oral contraceptives, a childless marriage was almost entirely involuntary (Park, 2002). The

United States Census Bureau data from 2006 highlighted several notable developments.

These developments included that the number of women ages 40-44 who were childless was 20%, this was a doubling of the level from thirty years earlier and, that those who had given birth, had an average of 1.9 children compared with 3.1 children in 1976 (U.S.

Bureau of the Census, 2008). This trend of delaying childbirth was not just in the United

States as between 1970 and 2008 in western-developed countries, the average age at which women had their first child increased from 24 to 28 years. This upward trend is even higher in Germany, Italy, and Switzerland, where the average age of first childbirth is approaching 30 years (Chamie & Mirkin, 2012).

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The reasons for this trend of delaying parenthood included economic issues, high unemployment rates, education/career ambitions, and greater use of contraceptives and abortion (Goldin & Katz, 2002; Rindfuss, & Brewster, 2000). A 2014 study in Great

Britain of 25,000 women revealed that most women believe children could adversely affect their careers (Opportunity Now, 2014). Furthermore, two-thirds of those surveyed felt that women with children were “less serious” about their career.

To Not Have Children

Cultural expectations are that couples should have children and conventional wisdom holds that being a parent is a core element of a meaningful and fulfilling life.

Specifically, social scientists believe the advantages of parenthood help facilitate areas of growth socially (companionship and intimacy), developmentally (maturity and growth) and existentially (expansion of self and the opportunity to love and be loved) (Hansen,

2008). Additionally, Thornton & Young-DeMarco’s (2001) four decades of research on parenthood reiterate these central life goals for almost everyone in current and previous cohorts of young adults.

In the United States, most adults believe that parenthood is an invaluable part of developing emotional well-being. Heterosexual couples without children have been characterized as “immature” and are not treated as full adults (Letherby & Williams,

1999). In addition, the majority view is that childlessness leads to feelings of emptiness and loneliness (Simon, 2008). And, for the majority of middle-aged and older people without children, the absence of having a child represents a rupture in both their expected and projected life course (Hagestad & Call, 2007).

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An important distinction has arisen in recent decades and that distinction deals with the language that is used for those who chose not to have children. Rowland (1982) introduced the term “childfree” to describe people who are not infertile and who have chosen not to have children. This is opposed to the terms “childless” or “without children.” both of which implies lack. This term childfree stresses the choice not to have children was an active one. Illustrating this fact was a 2006 study of women ages 40-44 who did not have children, in which researchers found that 44% of the women were voluntarily childfree (Abma & Martinez, 2006). Women who are voluntarily childfree had higher education, higher incomes, made up the highest percent in professional occupations as well as had the most extensive work experience amongst women.

Childfree women also had lower religiosity and less “traditional family values”

(Jacobson, Heaton, & Taylor, 1988).

Relatively few women decide early to remain childfree; instead, intentions and plans are revised over time to reflect changing circumstances, such as marriage or divorce, work opportunities, or economic constraints (Quesnel-Vallée & Morgan, 2003).

The pressure from friends, family, and society on women who choose to remain childfree is high, but those who remain childfree by choice are less stressed than women who are unable to have children due to fertility or physical reasons (McQuillan et al, 2012). Still, case studies have shown that many people view women without children as less caring, less emotionally healthy, and lower in warmth than their childbearing counterparts

(LaMastro, 2000).

There is little research into the differences between the attitudes of men and women who do not have children. A rather small survey of 27 men and 81 women in

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Great Britain who were not parents revealed some interesting findings that will hopefully be expounded upon in future studies. While the desire to have children was nearly equal between men and women, the societal forces urging and the reaction to not having children, were markedly different between the sexes. This survey showed that men are more influenced by cultural, societal and family pressures in wanting to become a parent.

When these influences were not met by the men, they were more likely to feel depressed, isolated, and angry compared to women. Women on the other hand cited both personal desire and biological urges as major influences in wanting to have children and when these influences were not met, the overwhelming feeling was that of guilt (Hadley &

Hanley, 2011).

In 2012, an estimated 17% of American women will have left their childbearing years without reproducing as opposed to 10% in the mid-1970s (U.S. Bureau of the

Census, 2014). This trend is not just an American phenomenon as it can be seen in most developed nations where one in 10 women in their late forties have not had children.

This childlessness rate is almost one in four for the countries of Italy and Switzerland

(Chamie, 2012).

In conjunction with marrying later, women with advanced degrees are also more likely not to have children, though that percentage is dropping. To illustrate, a report from the Pew Research Center showed that in 1991, 31% of women with advanced degrees had not had children, 17 years later, in 2008, that percentage had dropped to

24%. This same report from Pew Research Center found that 18% of women ages 40-44

(the age at which fertility drops precipitously) had never given birth, an 80% increase

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from 1976. In actual numbers, this was 1.9 million women in 2008 who had never given birth compared with 580,000 women thirty-two years earlier (Livingston & Cohn, 2010).

Fertility Issues and Solutions

Kamel (2013) describes a case study about couple Lesley and John Brown who for nine years tried to conceive a child but were unable to due to a blockage in Lesley’s fallopian tubes. But in July of 1978 in Oldham, England, they had a daughter, Louise

Brown. It was a caesarian birth and the girl weighed 5 pounds and 12 ounces. The birth was the first achieved using a technique later known as in vitro fertilization (IVF). And though her conception occurred in a petri dish, she was known worldwide as the first

“test tube” baby. This technique, designed to help infertile couples conceive, is not only another reason that women are having children at a later age, but, for most of the women, the technique is the process that allows them to have children at a later age. Artificial

Reproductive Technology (ART) extends a woman’s window to have a child and has expanded the limits for women who otherwise might have missed their opportunity at motherhood (Baird, Collins, Egozcue, Evers, Gianaroli , et al. 2005).

The natural process of aging affects the ability of the ovaries to produce good- quality eggs (and ultimately good-quality embryos), this declines as women get older and diminishes the ability to conceive a child (Gleicher, n.d.).

In 2012, The American Society for Reproductive Medicine (ASRM) published a guide entitled, “Age and Fertility: A Guide for Patients.” This guide is a straight forward look at the effects of aging on fertility, it states one in three women ages 35-39 will not get pregnant within a year of attempting to conceive and 30% of women in their late 30s will remain childless. About half of women over 40 have fertility problems and

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after the age of 45, it is almost impossible for a woman to get pregnant using her own eggs. Even the viability of the eggs of a forty-year old woman and those of a forty-five year old woman are markedly different. Once a woman passes 40, she has about a 5% change of getting pregnant in any single ovulation cycle (Age and Fertility, 2012).

Furthermore, the ASRM report revealed that a 40-year old woman has a 25% chance of getting pregnant with her own eggs compared to 75% for a woman age 35. At age 43, the percentage plummets to 10% and for women just one year older at 44, the percent is a minuscule 1.6%. Fertility experts equate women getting pregnant after the age of 45 using their own eggs as the equivalent of buying a winning lottery ticket

(Matthiessen, n.d.). Every once in a while someone wins, but one should never count on it.

For older women who are successful in conceiving there is a much literature regarding possible issues for the children born to older mothers. And, indeed, there can be significant issues involving older mothers. For example, older mothers who avoid having a miscarriage in their first trimester face a higher risk of having a child with chromosomal problems. These chromosomal risks continue to increase as the woman gets older. With the developmental issue of Down syndrome, at age 25 a woman has a 1 in 1,250 chance of having a child with Down syndrome. Fifteen years later, when that woman turns forty, the risk increases to a 1 in 100, twelve and a half times higher. And, at 45, there is a one in 30 chance of the child developing Down syndrome (Down syndrome, 2011). Since the risks of genetic problems increase with age, experts routinely recommend detailed fetal screening procedures such as advanced

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ultrasound, amniocentesis, or chorionic villus sampling during pregnancy for older women. This is usually recommended for women over 35 (Burgin, 2008).

Over time, not only is the quality of eggs an issue for the sharp decline in fertility

(that decline in quality can also lead to higher risk of serious problems for children who are born), so is the quantity of eggs. This drop in quantity was enumerated in a 2004 report published in Great Britain by the National Collaborating Centre for Women's and

Children's Health. This report entitled, “Fertility: Assessment and Treatment for People with Fertility Problems,” contained guidelines for best practices in fertility issues. In the publication’s fact sheet, it was reported that over her lifetime a woman will produce almost 400,000 eggs while losing in the area of 13,000 a year. At age 37, a woman is left with approximately 25,000 eggs and this coincides with a marked drop in fertility.

Finally, around age 43, the egg supply is nearly exhausted which greatly reduces the possibility of pregnancy (“Fertility: Assessment and Treatment,” 2004).

For women ages 45 and older who can rarely get pregnant with their own eggs-- even with fertility treatment--fertility specialists recommend oocyte donation (Greenfeld,

2011). Oocyte donation is undergoing an IVF procedure with eggs donated by a younger egg donor (Miller-Keane, 2003). (IVF and egg donation are particularly vital to the escalation in the number of older parents and will be discussed more in-depth later in this chapter).

Treatment options for Fertility Issues

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 6.1 million women in the U.S., roughly 10% of women ages 15-44, have difficulty getting pregnant or staying pregnant (CDC, 2010). The CDC defined infertility for a healthy couple as an

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inability to conceive after one full year of trying to get pregnant. At peak fertility the average time for conception is three months. If, after a year of having regular unprotected sex, a woman has not been able to become pregnant, ASRM recommends that she have an evaluation for infertility. For women 35 or older, the evaluation is recommended at six months. If it is determined that there is a fertility problem, the doctor and patient can devise a treatment plan using any number of interventions. The rule of thumb in using an intervention is to start with the least invasive treatment and escalate if needed.

The first two treatment options for infertility are fertility drugs and/or surgery.

According to the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, 90% percent of couples with fertility problems who went on to have children were treated with either drugs or surgery. For both women and men with hormone issues, fertility drugs are often an effective way to get the reproductive process on track. These drugs are commonly used in conjunction with artificial insemination (Frequently asked questions about infertility, n.d.). Artificial insemination is a timed process that aids the sperm in reaching the egg by placing a concentrated quantity of sperm in the woman’s uterus to increase the chances of conception (Concise Medical Dictionary, 2010). The second treatment option is surgery.

Often there are physical issues, such as blocked fallopian tubes or ovarian cysts that fertility drugs cannot address, so a minor procedure called laparoscopic, sometimes referred to as ”keyhole” surgery, is performed. This surgery is done with a fiber-thin tube called a laparoscope to either clear any obstructions or to zero in on any physical problems that might be preventing conception. Once any obstacles are removed, the

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chances of the woman conceiving are the same as for any woman in the patient’s age group (Rodriguez, n.d.).

For the 10% of couples whose issues were not remedied by the first two treatments, the next step is often one of the high tech procedures in the rapidly evolving area of artificial reproduction technology (ART). The CDC, which is required by the

1992 Fertility Clinic Success Rate and Certification Act to publish an annual report of the success rates at United States fertility clinics, defines artificial reproduction technology as all fertility treatments in which both eggs and sperm are handled (CDC, 2014). On the

CDC’s webpage entitled “What is Assisted Reproductive Technology?,” the procedure is described as surgically removing eggs from a woman's ovaries, combining them with sperm in the laboratory, and returning them to the woman's body, or in the case of a couple using an egg donor, transferring the embryo from the donor’s egg into the woman.

ART is mainly used for infertility issues but can also be helpful for couples who may have genetic issues or when there is a risk for infection or danger to the fetus (such as

AIDS) (Soini, Ibarreta, Anastasiadou, Aymé, Braga, et al. 2006).

Baby Center, the vastly-comprehensive website for things baby-related, provides a primer for the different options of fertility procedures available in the area of ART, including the most commonly used procedure, IVF and, although used to a lesser extent, intra-cytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) when the man’s sperm motility is a problem.

Finally, two other procedures that were once common, gamete intrafallopian transfer

(GIFT) and zygote intrafallopian transfer (ZIFT) are now rarely performed due to the higher success rate of IVF (Assisted reproductive technologies, n.d.).

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According to the ASRM’s guide for patients, (2011) on the IVF procedure, the woman’s eggs are combined with the sperm of her partner in a laboratory dish. If fertilization happens, then the new embryos are allowed to develop for 3 to 5 days. After this time, the embryo (or embryos, in many cases) deemed most viable is placed in the woman’s uterus. It was the process that lead to the birth of the aforementioned Louise

Brown more than 35 years ago and her birth was the first time that conception had occurred outside of a woman’s body.

In 2013, the latest year the statistics are available, the Society for Assisted

Reproductive Technology (SART) released its annual report that revealed there were more test-tube babies born in the U.S. in 2012 than ever before. The percentage of total births in the United States using ART was the highest in the thirty year history of the technology. SART, which is a medical organization that represents more than 90% of the country’s infertility clinics, reported 165,172 procedures were performed in 2012 which resulted in 61,740 babies being born. This was an increase of more than 2,000 IVF babies being born than had been in 2011. There were around 3.9 million babies born in the United States in 2012 and IVF babies represented 1.5% of the total births (SART,

2013).

The IVF procedure is both expensive and invasive (Assisted reproductive technologies, n.d.) and, in 2012, had a success rate of around 37% (SART, 2014). The process can be emotionally challenging, particularly when the results are unsuccessful, as well as physically challenging, from the large amounts of hormones required during the treatment (Wilkins, Warnock & Serrano, 2010). However, recent advancements in the technology allow doctors to do a much more thorough examination on the health of the

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newly-formed embryos. A more in-depth examination means the hopeful parents-to-be will have the option to choose from the better-developed embryos that have the best chance of implanting (the embryos are given a letter grade from A to C as to their viability). If the higher-graded embryo implants and the woman becomes pregnant, the likelihood is high that the baby will be born healthy (Hara, Matsuura, Kodama, Sato,

Kikkawa, et al., 2013).

However, as with all things fertility-related, the woman’s age is a significant factor. Data from SART showed that the percentage of attempts that result in live births is 10 times higher in women under 35 than in women over 42. And in the older women, fewer than half the IVF pregnancies result in a live birth (SART, 2014).

Cost Issues

The average cost for one round of IVF is $12,400. Currently insurance companies have not kept pace with technological advancements. Findings in 2006 by

Resolve: The National Infertility Associations, revealed only one in five employer- sponsored health insurance plans offered in the United States had coverage for fertility treatments. The cost of the treatments was listed as the number one reason for insurance plans not offering coverage.

A study from the Institute of Health and Aging at the University of California,

San Francisco examined the attitudes of older parents-to-be regarding the cost of IVF and insurance coverage (or lack of), the median out of pocket expenses for these parents ranged from $10,000 to $27,000. The study’s participants consider the costs to be very expensive, but considered those costs to be worth it (Smith, Eisenberg, Glidden,

Millstein, Cedars, et al. 2011). The onerous financial outlay of ART (or even adoption) is

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a major factor in a greater number of parents undertaking the procedure being older in age.

The Affordable Care Act enacted in 2014 does not mandate fertility coverage

(Williams, 2014), each participating state insurance plans will either cover treatment or not. Presently, 22 states require insurers to cover various fertility treatments and services, but policies vary from state to state. Some states cover fertility drugs but not assisted reproductive technology (Williams, 2014).

However, the Affordable Care Act enacted provisions that prevents health insurance plans from considering infertility a pre-existing condition and thus deny coverage. The law also increased the maximum allowed tax deduction for fertility services from 7.5% to 10% of pretax income (American Society for Reproductive

Medicine, 2014).

Concerns about Using Fertility Technology

Most doctors recommend reserving ART as a last resort for having a baby

(Fertility treatment, n.d.). The rate of birth defects in children conceived using ART procedures is higher than children who are conceived naturally with the percentage of birth defects for children conceived using ART at 8.3% versus only 5.8% for those children naturally conceived (Davies, Moore, Willson, Van Essen, Priest, et al., 2012).

ART babies are also more likely to be born with low birth weights. However, fertility experts have not determined if the birth defects and low birth weights are byproducts of the woman’s fertility problems or if the fertility treatments are to blame. A recent study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that ART children had the same overall childhood cancer risks as the naturally conceived children (Slomski, 2013).

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One widespread concern with babies conceived using ART was that their cognitive abilities might be compromised (Halpert, 2012), but that appears not be the case judging from research conducted at the University of Iowa in 2008. Using the standardized test scores of 463 IVF children ages 8 to 17, the researchers measured how children conceived using IVF matched up when compared to children conceived naturally. In every category—reading, math and language skills—the children conceived through IVF scored higher. They also found that the older the mother, the better the child scored. The researchers’ theory was the mothers who waited for a longtime to have children were more engaged with those children. This, along with fewer children at home, allowed for more concentrated time with the child (Mains, Zimmerman, Blaine,

Stegmann, Sparks, et al., 2010).

Egg Donors

As mentioned early in this chapter, the chances of a woman over the age of 45 getting pregnant with her own eggs have been equated with winning the lottery

(Matthiessen, n.d.). To overcome these poor odds, 75% of women over the age of 45 chose to use either donor eggs or donor embryos (Bates, 2006). A ten-year analysis

(2000-2010) of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National ART

Surveillance System, to which fertility centers are mandated to report and which includes data on more than 95% of all IVF cycles performed in the United States, showed that donor eggs account for almost 6,000 babies born in the United States each year. The numbers also revealed that the success rates of IVF starts to fall sharply after the age of

35, but women using donor eggs have a successful pregnancy rate of about 50%. For women over the age of 40, using eggs from younger fertile women can increase the

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success rate of the IVF cycle up to three-fold (Kawwass, Monsour, Crawford, Kissin, et al., 2013). Also the use of donor eggs reduces the risks of miscarriage and chromosomal problems associated with the eggs of older women (e.g., Down syndrome). This is because the risks are consistent with the age of the egg donor, which is usually from women in their 20s (Age and Fertility, 2012).

A study of 443 clinics, representing 93% of all United States fertility centers revealed that the average age of egg donors is 28, while the average age of the egg recipients was 41 and that the average ages for both donor and recipient have stayed consistent over a fifteen-year period. While the average age of egg donors is 28, most egg donors are between 21 and 29 years old (Kawwass, Monsour, Crawford, Kissin,

Session, et al., 2013). The egg donors are required to pass psychological, medical, and genetic screening.

In Wilson-Miller & Napoletano’s award-winning book, “The Insider’s Guide to

Egg Donation” (2012), much of the world of egg donation and egg donors is revealed-- included is the cost of using an egg donor (undergoing one IVF cycle using donor eggs varies from $15,000 to $30,000 and is more expensive than a standard IVF procedure).

This amount includes the donor’s fee, which averages $6,000. The egg donor’s fee is highly variable and is partly determined by the donor’s physical characteristics, ethnic background, educational record, and occupation (Wilson-Miller & Napoletano, 2012).

For example, the eggs of an Ivy League graduate cost more than the eggs of a high school graduate. Jewish egg donors also demand a higher price due to a shortage of women from this ethnic group who donate eggs (Schneider, 2001).

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According to Dr. Norbert Gleicher of New York’s Center for Human

Reproduction, a donor egg cycle consists of six steps.

1. Egg Production—the egg donor is given fertility medications to stimulate the

production of multiple eggs.

2. Preparing the carrier’s uterus for implantation—the carrier of the fetus will be

given hormones to prepare to receive the embryos and support the pregnancy.

3. Egg Retrieval—a hollow, ultrasound-guided needle gently removes the eggs.

4. Fertilization—the eggs are sent to an IVF laboratory, combined with sperm

and placed in an incubator where fertilization takes place. This process takes

three to five days.

5. Embryo Transfer—using a small catheter, the embryos (usually one or two)

are transferred through the cervix into the uterus.

6. Testing for Pregnancy—two weeks after the transfer, the carrier is given a

pregnancy test (Gleicher, 2013).

In 2000, the total number of donor egg cycles was close to 11,000. Ten years later that number climbed almost 75% to more than 18,000. Not only had the number of donor cycles increased but the percentage of healthy babies at term (this is an infant delivered at the 37th week or later and weighing more than five and a half pounds) also increased from 18.5% to more than 24% (Kawwass, et al., 2013).

In the early years of IVF procedures, 99% of the time multiple embryos were transferred into the mother’s uterus. The reasons for using multiple embryos were both economic (each IVF cycle is between $15,000 and $30,000) and mathematical (the odds of implementation increases with each embryo). However, the use of multiple embryos

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not only increases the chances of having twins (or more), but with every embryo that implants, the health risks go up (Reynolds, Schieve, Jeng, Peterson, & Wilcox, 2001). In almost 40% of ART pregnancies using donor eggs, the women give birth to multiple infants. Increasingly, fertility experts are recommending that couples transfer only a single embryo during each procedure. The percent of single embryo transfers have risen from 1% in 2000 to 14% in 2012 (Pfeifer, Fritz, McClure, Adamson, Barnhart, et al.,

2012). This change in practice is due in large part to the public and societal reaction to the Nadya Suleman case, a.k.a Octomom, in which an ART physician transferred twelve embryos resulting in eight babies (Schmerler, 2012).

In addition to the cost and the risk factors, much like previous generations of parents who struggled whether to tell adopted children the truth of that child’s origin, the current generation of parents is facing the high-tech equivalent when it comes to donor egg babies. In the case of the former, experts are nearly unanimous in the opinion that the child should be told they were adopted. In the case of the latter, however, there is no such consensus and that ambivalence is reflected in the attitudes of the parents.

In a 2013 study by the Reproductive Medicine Associates of New York and the

Mount Sinai School of Medicine, up to 60% of donor egg recipients were unsure if they would inform their child of the circumstances surrounding their birth. This study consisted of 438 patients who successfully had children using donor eggs between 2006 and 2012. Each year, the researchers asked the parents if they were willing to tell their children the story of the child’s origin. The fluctuation was significant from year-to-year.

In 2008, 42% of parents planned to tell the child. This percentage plummeted to 21% in

2009, before rebounding to 47% in 2012. The reasons given for this uncertainty was fear

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of cultural disapproval and being ostracized by the family’s community, as well as a concern that this information might confuse the child about his or her identity, impacting the child’s self-perception (ASRM, 2013).

Researchers from Weill Cornell Medical College, asked 64 families who had used egg donors between 1992 and 2003, if the family had informed their children how they were conceived. At the time of the study in 2012, the 64 families had a combined 73 children, all conceived using donor eggs. Of the 64 families, only 43% had told their children about their history. The average age a child in these families learned about the circumstances of their birth was six. In the 57% of families who had yet to tell their children how they were conceived, 87% of these parents still planned to talk to their children about their conception using a donor egg. The main issue for the remaining parents was not knowing how or when to tell the child. The sensitivity of the issue has increased calls for counseling and resources for parents who use egg donation. The suggestion is that these services be available not only at the time of the fertility treatment but also in later years for the disclosure process. In the cases of the parents who shared the genetic history with their children, those who had shared before the child was 10 years old reported feeling happy about the decision and free of the anxiety surrounding the subject. On the other hand, parents who had not told their child by the time the child had become a teenager, felt a significant and growing anxiety about keeping secrets from their children (Applegarth, Kaufman, Giovannetti, Cholst, et al., 2013).

Even though parental discomfort is still high, the trend in society is toward an increased level of comfort with the new fertility technology and the new awakening that, in modern times, there are many different ways to become a family (ASRM, 2013).

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Becoming a father

The British geneticist Steve Jones once said that life is a two-part test. Part one was to be born and part two was to reproduce. This section deals with part two of that test by examining the role of fatherhood. It will explore the changing demands on fathers over time and the evolving expectations that comprise contemporary fatherhood. The section will also explore the growing demographic of “late onset fathers” (post-40-year old men who become a parent for the first time) and the conflicting psychosocial stages these fathers face. Also examined will be the qualities these older men bring to parenting.

In the past fifty years the role of the father in American society has swung dramatically from a traditional role of a hands-off authoritarian breadwinner and security provider to a hands-on role of co-parent involved in all aspects of childrearing (Finley &

Schwartz, 2006). Though, even by 1969, this role was being challenged as 56% of women with children under 15 were already in the work force. In 2012 that percentage was at 71%, down from a high of 78% in 1999 (Cohn, Wang, & Livingston, 2014).

While this egalitarian approach has benefits for the family as a whole, and for the father individually, it can bring about confusing and conflicting expectations and fears regarding living up to the idea of what a father should be, of being able to protect the family as well as providing for the family. (Gaertner, Spinrad, Eisenberg, & Greving,

2007).

The current shift in the attitudes toward fathering are the result of several factors.

These factors include the previously-mentioned trends of people marrying later in life and having children later. In addition, there is the expansion of women’s educational and

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professional aspirations and the economic boost to the family finances that these aspirations can bring. The importance of these added finances can be reflected in the exploding number of dual career households (Balter, 2000). Next, the changing demographics in working and careers are also a contributing factor. These new demographics are the result of advances in technology (i.e,, the internet, which connects almost everyone at almost any time), globalization (the moving of jobs overseas) and worldwide economic instability which demands a flexibility that was not required in previous generations. In other words, the days of working for a single employer for the entirety of one’s career, with a salary that could support a family seems to be a thing of the past.

However, it should be noted that while there has been a shift in demographics, when one spouse stays at home to care for the children and one spouse works, 97% of the time it is the wife who stays at home (U.S. Census Bureau, 2008). The tiny number of stay-at-home fathers suggests that while lip service is being paid to this new paradigm of

“parental” involvement, the fact is society has been slow to completely accept it. The reason given for this incongruity is that while society embraces the idea of the father as a nurturing caregiver, an overwhelming majority of employers do not. So now the delicate home/work balance that mothers have faced since entering the work force is increasingly becoming an issue for fathers who seek to straddle both worlds. The flexibility that is needed to be involved in raising a child is often against corporate norms, which says loyalty and commitment to the company are shown through long hours at work

(Williams, 2000). According to research from the National Study of the Changing

Workforce, work-life conflict is not only acutely felt by the father, but that working

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fathers feel a greater work-life conflict than working mothers (Galinsky, Aumann, &

Bond, 2009). This added work-life pressure feeds into the component of most fathers’ identities that they should be the primary breadwinners in the family. Particularly, that since youth, most men have been socialized that they are the providers for their families

(Turk-Charles, Rose, & Gatz, 1996).

As might be expected, becoming a father markedly changes a man. For most new fathers, the birth of a child brought more meaning to their life and a greater sense of purpose (Volling, 1991). The added requirements and expectations attached to bringing a new infant into the world have a rippling effect through most areas of the new father’s life. Fathers are regarded as having greater responsibility and therefore are expected to exhibit different qualities and character than men who are not fathers (Newman, &

Newman, 1988). Among these new changes are emotional growth and maturity for the new father, including an increased concern for the feeling of others (Volling & Belsky,

1991), as well as further developing a man’s nurturing side (Hawkins & Belsky, 1989).

Other effects of fatherhood include an increase in focus and a restructuring and clarifying of priorities, such as less-frequent socializing with friends and reducing risk-taking behaviors (Palkovitz, 2007). Fatherhood provides a different environment for a man’s growth--intellectually, physically, socially, emotionally, and spiritually (Palkovitz, 2002).

According to a wide-ranging survey of 33 new fathers conducted by researchers at

Boston College, many of the participants felt that fatherhood brought a calming quality, a softening, to most of the men, making them seem more approachable and accessible

(Harrington, Van Deusen, & Ladge, 2010). At their workplace, the men felt they were able to make better social and work connections with other parents once they become

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“members of the club.” Also, parenthood gave the new fathers a greater aura of credibility and responsibility in the workplace and they were viewed as being more responsible and more serious about their careers. The new fathers felt that not only were they perceived differently, but that the difference was always positive (Harrington, Van

Deusen, & Ladge, 2010).

As noted, in recent years there is a greater emphasis on the emotional areas of fatherhood. This emphasis shows up in the language used in studies looking at new fathers. Words like role model, listening, compassion and understanding, pepper the lexicon dealing with new fathers; this is in sharp contrast to just a generation earlier. Now the new fathering is more of a friend and less of a disciplinarian to their child and to create an environment where the emotional support equals, or surpasses, the financial support (Harrington, 2010).

Fathers getting older

The official government definition of what constitutes an older father is a man who becomes a father after the age of 39 (Martinez, Daniels, & Chandra, 2012). The

CDC recent birth data from 2011, showed that the majority of children in the United

States are born to fathers between the ages of 20 to 34 (Martin, Hamilton, Ventura,

Osterman & Mathews, 2013). This same report revealed that in 1980, the average age range of fatherhood was 25 to 29; thirty-one years later there has been an upward age shift and it is now 30 to 34 (102.2 births per 1,000 men). In that same time span, the data show the birth rate for men ages 35 to 49 had increased 40%, a large enough increase to qualify as more than passing trend. Finally, the report revealed that while the

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percentage of older fathers had grown, the percentage of younger fathers had actually declined (Martin et al, 2013).

In 2004, it was reported that in the prior decade, older men had an increased fatherhood rate of almost 18% compared to a 15% drop in the rate for men ages 20 to 22

(National Center for Health Statistics [NCHS], 2004). That same year, the average number of men aged 40 to 44 who fathered a child was roughly 24 of every 1000. Most of these men were first-time fathers. Seven years later, in 2011, this number crept up to

34.7 per 1,000. Still, it should be noted, that though the percentages are creeping higher, the actual numbers are still quite low. In 2010, eight out of 1,000 new fathers were between the ages of 45 and 49 and only three out of 1,000 were 50 to 54 (Martin,

Hamilton, Ventura, Osterman, Wilson & Mathews, 2012). .

In their book, “Fathers of a Certain Age: The Joys and Problems of Middle-aged

Fatherhood,” father and son researchers Martin and David Carnoy coined the term for new fathers over 40 as “late onset fatherhood” and despite the above cited statistics, pinning down how many older men are fathering children is an imprecise task since birth certificates only list the age of the mother (Carnoy & Carnoy, 1995).

Carnoy (1995) went on to write that there are two main types of older fathers; the first type is known by sociologists as the “recycled” father. These recycled fathers are middle-aged men who already have grown children from a previous marriage but have now remarried younger women and are starting a whole new family. Recent examples of recycled fathers included actor Alec Baldwin and media mogul Rupert Murdoch. As divorce and remarriage became more common, so has the recycled father.

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The second group of older fathers is the “late onset fathers.” Late onset fathers are men over forty who either married late in life, married early but postponed having children (usually for career goals), or married and divorced without children and then remarried (NCHS, 2007). Because of the lack of reliable recordkeeping, there is no way of knowing if the new older dads are recycled or late onset.

Life stages for older fathers

Developed in the 1950’s, Eric Erikson’s eight stages of psychosocial development explains the stages a healthy developed person should pass through from infancy to late adulthood. Each stage has new challenges that a person confronts and attempts to master in order to successfully transition to the next stage. Each stage has two forces that are conflicting and the inability to reconcile these two forces can lead to dysfunction in the future. If the two forces are reconciled, the person exits that state with a corresponding virtue. For example, if a toddler (ages 3 to 5) enters the preschool stage (initiative vs. guilt) with more autonomy than shame and doubt, they will carry the virtue of hope through the remaining life stages (Westermeyer, 2004).

The experience of parenthood would be different depending on the person's lifespan stage (Garrison, Blalock, Zarski, & Merritt, 1997) and older fathers are in the unique situation of straddling two of Erikson’s stages. First is the stage of generativity vs. stagnation, which roughly covers the ages of 40 to 65. According to Erikson (1950), the generativity in this stage is defined as “establishing and guiding the next generation,” which is a major goal for many fathers. Dollahite & Hawkings (1996) describes

“generative fathering” as the proposed ethical obligation for fathers to meet the needs of the next generation. Fathers can show generative fathering in several ways; protecting

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their children against risky behaviors, developing a nurturing relationship with their child, and shepherding their children’s personal mastery (Pleban & Diez, 2007).

For men who became fathers in their late 40s and early 50s, they will find themselves entering into Erikson’s final psychosocial stage, ego integrity vs. despair, before their child graduates high school (Westermeyer, 2004). This is a stage of retrospection, where people look back at their lives and attempt to resolve their final identity. What were their accomplishments? Where did they fail? This acceptance of accomplishments and this acknowledgement of failures and limitations brings a sense of integrity. Here death is accepted for time is now too short to attempt to start another life

(Westermeyer, 2004). However, the question that goes unanswered (for now), is does having a young child at this life stage mitigate or even delay the beginning of the stage?

Furthermore, it should be noted that men are living much longer than in the 1950s, when

Erikson developed his stages, so the specific age ranges cited may no longer be valid.

Qualities of older fathers

Men who become fathers past the age of 50 tend to be better educated, more financially comfortable, and less stressed than their younger counterparts (Creamer,

2012). Older fathers are often established in their life and their career in a way that younger fathers are not; they are stable and mature. As a result, many older men have extra time to devote to their children and are fully invested in the child they waited so long to bring into the world (Creamer, 2012). The relationship between older fathers and their children is less physical, but tends to be calmer and have stronger emotional bonds

(Carnoy, 1995). These bonds continue to grow deeper as the father and child age and they experience continuous emotional connection and shared values (Taylor, Giarrusso,

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Feng, & Bengston, 2006). Some differences noted between older and younger fathers include energy levels and health, educational and occupational roles, frequency of play, play styles, responsiveness, and affection (Neville & Parke, 1997). Over eighty years ago, Carl Jung (1933) observed a tendency for men to become more androgynous during the second half of life and postulated that older men are more likely to build close family ties. This theory suggests a tendency for older fathers to be more involved in child rearing and to be more nurturing (Parke, 2000).

In the most comprehensive study to date on older parents, Mac Dougall, Beyene and Nachtigall (2012) conducted in-depth qualitative interviews with 46 couples and 15 individual self-selected women and men who had used IVF to conceive their first child when the woman was aged 40 or older at the time. The researchers found that many of the older parents had a very positive outlook and believed they had emotional and social advantages due to established careers with financial security and career-time flexibility, enhanced emotional preparedness, committed co-parenting relationships and a positive overall family experience. Although two-thirds of the parents did see how being younger than 30 might be the optimal biological age for having children, they felt that being beyond age 35 was superior financially, emotionally, and intellectually. Thirty-eight percent of women and 26% of men who participated in the study cited the lack of physical energy as a disadvantage to becoming a first-time parent over the age of 40

(Mac Dougall et al., 2012). However, midlife fathers make up for this lessened physical energy with sedentary activities that require more cognitive skills (Parke, 2000). Still, in spite of this intellectual compensation, a majority of “older parents” would have preferred to have children 5 to 10 years earlier (Mac Dougall et al., 2012). And, for some fathers,

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the economic requirements of late life childrearing often means that retirement is delayed, if it ever comes (Carnoy et al., 1995).

Birth risks from older fathers

In recent years, the birth risk from older fathers are being scrutinized more closely. The findings on these birth risk are showing that despite the majority of the attention paid to older mothers, it is the fathers who bring an even longer list of possible genetic risks to the table. Currently, about 20 inherited ailments have been linked to the father’s age (Raeburn, 2009).

The first time that a father’s age was thought to be a contributing factor for a birth defect in his children was over a century ago in a 1912 study. In this study, a German doctor, Wilhelm Weinberg noted that achondroplasia, a form of dwarfism, was more common with the last-born in a family than with the first-born. Though he did not know why, he theorized it was related to the age of the parents, who were, of course, older when their last child was born. It was decades before the research proved Weinberg half right; the risk of dwarfism was not associated with the ages of both parents, the risk of dwarfism rose with the age of the father (Crow, 2000).

Among the other birth defects and developmental delays attributed to older fathers: progeria, which is the disorder of rapid aging; Marfan Syndrome, a disorder marked by very long arms, legs, fingers and toes; and Edwards Syndrome, a chromosomal condition associated with abnormalities in many parts of the body such as heart defects or a small, abnormally-shaped head. The physical conditions of these disorders are expensive to treat and these conditions impact both the emotional health and the quality of life for both parent and child (Bray, Gunnell, & Davey Smith, 2006).

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Much as the quality of a woman’s eggs deteriorates over time, so does the reproductive molecules in a man’s sperm. A man is constantly manufacturing new sperm. Every 16 days, cells in the testicles divide and the DNA in each cell is copied into a new batch of sperm (Fertility Facts, 2012). This renewable resource can bring life but can also bring a host of problems and the number of those problems tend to increase as a man ages. The body is highly accurate at making an exact copy, but sometimes mistakes are made and those mistakes are called de novo mutation. In a 2012 study, Kong reported that a 20-year-old man and a 20-year old woman will each pass about 20 de novo mutations to their child. Once this couple turns forty, the woman’s total is still 20, but the man’s total has increased to 65. The number of de novo mutation for the man will keep climbing from there. For every year of a man’s life after puberty, two gene mutations appear. Going forward, the number of new mutations being passed on by fathers would double every 16.5 years. As the father ages, his sperm begins to have genetic errors that are passed along (Kong, Frigge, Masson, Besenbacher, Sulem et al.,

2012). In addition, if the man smokes or has suffered some testicular trauma, this can also contribute to his DNA becoming quite fragmented (Stoppard, 2008).

These mutations can work in one of two ways. If the mutation is in the gene that controls brain development, it could cause autism or schizophrenia (Fromer,

Pocklington, Kavanagh, Williams, Dwyer et al., 2014). If the mutation is in a gene that affects the risk of contracting a certain type of cancer, the mutation could increase the child’s chance of getting cancer later in life (Kong et al., 2012).

To illustrate these mutations in action, in 2012, a team of researchers from

Columbia University Medical Center published a study illustrating how de novo

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mutations increase with a father's age. Kong, Frigge, Masson, et al., sequenced the entire genomes of 78 mother-father-child trios from Iceland. Neither parent had autism or schizophrenia, however, the child did. The de novo mutations in the afflicted children were compared with the genomes of 2000 healthy Icelander children. The researchers concluded that around 97% of these de novo mutations came from the father (Kong et al.,

2012).

Because of the increased risk of genetic abnormalities in the offspring of older fathers, The American Society for Reproductive Medicine has suggested an upper age limit of 40-years-old for sperm donors (Third-party Reproduction, 2012). Fertility clinics in the United Kingdom accept sperm donations only from men aged 39 and under (Older dads, 2008).

The Before

As the issue of older parents starts to become more prominent, it must be said that there is not a great deal of research in the field, though, in recent years, that is beginning to change. Frisch (2009) finds this to be troubling and feels the lack of appreciation for the realities of a male biological clock is worrisome. Frisch continues by citing the changes associated with this aging biological clock to include sperm quality, fertility, hormone levels, libido, erectile function, and a host of non-reproductive physiological issues. Frisch also contends that older men considering parenthood should have a thorough history and physical examination focusing on their sexual and reproductive capacity. Such an examination should entail disclosure of any sexual dysfunction and the use of medications, drugs, or lifestyle factors that might impair fertility or sexual

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response. Older men should also be counseled regarding the effects of paternal age on spermatogenesis and pregnancy (Frisch, 2009).

In 2014, the largest study to date on the subject of the possible physical and mental ramifications to children born to older fathers was released (D’Onofrio, Rickert,

Frans et al., 2014). The researchers looked at more than 2 million births in Sweden over a 28-year period between 1973 and 2001. In the study the average age of the fathers was

49. The researchers compared the age of the father to psychiatric disorders between siblings born to the same father. The study showed that the older the father was when the child was born, the greater the psychiatric risks the child would face.

Furthermore, the study revealed that the children of the older fathers (defined as age 45 and over) were 25 times more likely to have bipolar disorder compared to children born to fathers who were 20-24 (D’Onofrio, Rickert, Frans et al., 2014). The children were also 13 times more likely to have ADHD and more than 3 times more likely to suffer from autism than the children born to younger fathers. Not only were there increases in the area of mental illness, but risks of substance abuse, poor academic performance, and suicide were also found to be higher. This study led lead researcher,

Dr. Brian D’Onofrio to state that a father’s age needs to be factored in when considering the conception process, as older fathers are associated with more risks than had been previously thought (Singh, 2014).

However, Peterson (2012), agreed that advanced parental age was a risk factor for psychiatric disorders, but noted that having a teenage mother or father increases the risk even more (McGrath, Mortensen, Pedersen, Ehrenstein, & Petersen, 2013). Peterson came to this conclusion after co-authoring a study of 169,000 Danish servicemen

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comparing the IQs of sons of teen fathers to the sons of men over 40. The researchers found that after accounting for factors like maternal age and parents’ education, the sons of teen fathers scored lower on the IQ tests.

Another longitudinal study covering almost 40 years took place in Israel, where all births in Jerusalem during the 1960s and 1970s were recorded with information about the infant’s family, including parental age (Malaspina, Harlap, Fennig,

Heiman, Gorman, et al. 2000). As a requirement for the military draft, all Israeli children go through medical, intelligence and psychiatric screening as young adults. The researchers focused on the risk of schizophrenia in the children of older fathers by correlating the family information of 90,000 children with those who had developed schizophrenia as recorded on the medical physicals. The next year, Malaspina (2001), the lead researcher of the Israeli study, reported that paternal age was strongly linked to the risk of schizophrenia. This was the first large-scale study to link the heightened schizophrenia risk to the age of the father. Researchers found that men aged 50 or over are three times more likely to father a child with schizophrenia compared to men of 25 or under, and men aged between 45 and 49 are twice as likely to have a child with the illness. It was estimated that as many as one in four cases of schizophrenia may be caused by the father being old (Malaspina, 2001). The results have been replicated over seven times in cohorts from the United States, Japan, and Scandinavia (Raeburn, 2009).

The researchers dealing with the Israeli children also found significant increases in the risk of autism (Malaspina, Harlap, Fennig, Heiman, Gorman et al., 2000). Their study revealed that children born to fathers age 40 or older had nearly a six-fold increase in the risk of autism as compared with children whose fathers were younger than 30.

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Children of fathers older than 50 had 9 times the risk of autism (Malaspina et al., 2000).

Every 10 years that a father ages, the risk for the children they conceive having a developmental disorder doubles (Bray, 2006). Autism is an umbrella term for a range of developmental disorders that have a lifelong effect on someone's ability to interact socially and communicate and often requires special teaching needs. For affected children who reach adulthood, it is difficult to measure the impact such birth defects and developmental delays have on their education, employment opportunities and lifetime earnings–that is, their own finances (Lai, Lombardo, & Baron-Cohen, 2014).

Researchers have concluded that these studies are evidence that men also have a biological limit for producing healthy babies, that these studies are just the “canary in the coal mine” moment and there may be other disorders caused by the mutations in older fathers (Frisch, 2009). The cumulative effect of the studies showing higher levels of autism, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and lower IQ have some scientists no longer believing that men can have children indefinitely without consequence (D’Onofrio,

Rickert, Frans et al., 2014). This has been challenged by other experts, however, who point out that autism may be on the rise simply because of better diagnosis, adding that the causes of the condition are complex and still not well understood (Wingate, Kirby,

Pettygrove et al., 2014).

It should be noted that all the studies looking at de novo mutations conducted so far have shown the dysfunctions appear only in the brain but not in any other organs. To date it has been unclear if that is the only area affected by the mutations or if the research to show the effects in other organs has yet to be conducted (Ghosh, 2012).

Additional Studies in regard to older fathers

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In a study carried out by the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, researchers looked at a total of 13,428 patients who had a diagnosis of bipolar disorder with at least two separate hospital admissions (Hildreth, 2008). Bipolar disorder (BPD) is a +disorder that can be clinically severe with episodic mood disorders and is associated with suicidality, comorbidity, and substance abuse. In this study, the researchers found that the older an individual's father, the more likely he or she was to have bipolar disorder (Müller-

Oerlinghausen, Berghöfer, & Bauer, 2002). Children whose fathers were 55 years and older were 1.37 times more likely to go on to be diagnosed with bipolar disorder versus children whose fathers were aged 20 to 24. The risk factor of bipolar disorder for the child increased as the father’s age rose (Hildreth, 2008).

A study from researchers in the Department of Urology at Columbia University looked at the increase in the number of older parents and any association with Down syndrome (Fisch, Hyun, Golden, Hensle, Olsson, et al., 2003). In the study, the data from

3,419 incidents of Down syndrome from 1983 to 1997 was reviewed from the congenital malformations registry of the New York State Department of Health. During this 15-year period, there was an increase of 111% in the number of mothers age 35 years old and older. There was a 60% increase in fathers ages 35 and older. The researchers found that there was no parental age influence on Down syndrome until age 35 when an association with maternal age was noticed. Once the mothers turned 40 the association was higher.

Notably, in the study, if the ages of both the mother and father was more than 40, the paternal contribution to Down syndrome was 50% from the mother and 50% from the father. Researchers concluded that advanced paternal age in conjunction with advanced maternal age significantly enhances the incidence of Down syndrome and that this effect

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might be applicable for other genetic abnormalities that afflict the offspring of older fathers (Fisch, et al., 2003).

There has been research focusing both on children who live longer lives as a result of having older parents and children born of elderly adults who die earlier.

Contradictions are common in areas where the research is in its infancy. A joint study conducted between the University of Aarhus in Denmark and the School of Public Health at the University of California, Los Angeles looked at 102,879 live-born singletons over a period of 18 years (1980-1998) (Zhu, Vestergaard, Madsen, & Olsen, 2008). Children of younger fathers (under 25 years of age) and older fathers (45 years and older) had a higher overall mortality rate compared with children of fathers 25-29. After adjusting for maternal age and other potential cofounders, the mortality rate ratio dropped for the younger fathers, but remained unchanged for the older fathers. In fact, the children were almost twice as likely to die before adulthood. The researchers suggest a link between the age of the father and early death, though the overall number of deaths recorded was small

(Zhu et al., 2008). In addition, the researchers noted that there was no adjustment made by researchers for the health of the mother, which could also have a large effect on child mortality.

Conversely, in a recent study conducted in the Philippines, the offspring of 2023 older fathers were examined and researchers found that the children of the older fathers appeared to be “genetically programmed” to live longer (Eisenberg, Hayes, & Kuzawa,

2012). The findings dealt with telomeres, which are repeating DNA sequences at the ends of chromosomes that protect and buffer genes as cells divide. The older the father, the longer the telomere--which the offspring inherit. Basically, as a man ages, the make-up

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of his sperm changes and it develops a DNA code that favors a longer life. The man then passes that trait on to his children (Eisenberg, Hayes, & Kuzawa, 2012).

As previously mentioned in the study of Icelandic older parents, 97% of all mutations passed on to children are from older fathers. However, researchers from that study took the view that from a long-term perspective the decision by some men to have children later in life might well be speeding up the evolution of our species. The researchers felt that the high rate of mutations, while bad for the next generation is generating diversity from which nature can select and further refine “this product we call man” (Ghosh, 2012).

An Early Exit

Dying and leaving young children without a parent is probably the older parent's biggest, and often unspoken, fear (Tyre, 2004). Statistically, children born to older parents have fewer years with their parents than peers with younger parents. For example, there is a 97.8% chance that a 25-year-old new father will live to see his child’s

18th birthday. But take a new father who is twenty years older and 45 when the child is born and the odds of him making it to his child’s 18th birthday are over five times worse at 87.9% (Schmidt, Sobotka, Bentzen, & Nyboe Andersen, 2012). In a six-nation study,

1,729 children ranging from second to ninth grades rated 20 items in terms of how upsetting the items were to the child. Placing at the top of the list of upsetting events was the loss of a parent (the arrival of a new baby sibling was twentieth) (Yamamoto, Davis,

Dylak, Whittaker, Marsh, et al. 1996).

One in nine Americans lose a parent before they are 20 years old (Auman, 2007) and 57% of adults who lost parents during childhood would give up a year of their life to

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see that parent again (Grieving Children, 2010). Further noteworthy revelations from this study indicate just how deep the scars of parental bereavement are, with the effects of this loss being felt for decades. Seventy-three percent of the respondents felt their lives would be much better if their parents had not died young and 66% said that after the loss, they no longer felt like a kid anymore (Grieving Children, 2010).

Childhood grief has been called one of society’s most chronically painful, yet most underestimated phenomena (Cohen & Mannarino, 2004). In a three-year longitudinal study of 182 parentally bereaved children, ages 7 through 18, the researchers found that for most of the children the grief abated with time and more than half of the children experienced resolution of their manifestations of grief with 1 year of the parent’s death (Melhem, Porta, Shamseddeen, Walker Payne, & Brent, 2011). However, this is not the case for all the children and this subset, whose grief reactions were prolonged or increased, faced higher risk for depression and for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)

(Melhem et al., 2011). Another finding from the researchers in this study was that the well-being of the caregiver of the children was a significant predictor of the children’s well-being. This combination of complicated grief in the surviving parent and in the child was a potent factor in predicting depression in the children as long as 3 years after the death (Melham et al., 2011).

An earlier study from 2000, found that about 20% of children who experienced the death of a parent would develop a psychiatric disorder (Dowdney, 2000). During the first year after the death, children commonly displayed grief, distress and dysphoria. The noteworthy finding in this study was that boys had the higher rates of difficulties reported and these difficulties would manifest themselves in external behaviors (Dowdney, 2000).

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In a review of children bereaved by parental suicide, most of the children reported low levels of psychological distress suggesting a considerable degree of resilience

(Ratnarajah & Schofield, 2007). However, in acting stoic and behaving like an adult, the children often sacrifice their childhood. Often they try to assume the role of the deceased parent or they strive to keep their surviving parent happy (Silverman & Worden, 1992).

As far as the longer term effects of childhood bereavement, Parsons (2011) did an analysis of data from the 1970 British Cohort Study (BSC70). The analysis looked at the range of outcomes at age 30 for over 500 subjects, 5% of whom lost a mother or father before the age of 16. The BCS70 analysis revealed childhood bereavement does have some long-term impact, but that the effect is limited after family background is taken into account. Childhood bereavement was found to impact negatively on only one measure for men at age 30 and that was in the area of employment rates. For women, the impact was seen in a wider range of measures, including gaining higher education classifications, employment, having symptoms associated with depression and being a smoker (Parsons,

2011).

Tip of the iceberg

Researchers are concerned that the recent findings are the tip of the iceberg regarding the potential problems that might be associated with older fathers (D’Onofrio,

Rickert, Frans et al., 2014). Herbert Meltzer of Vanderbilt University, psychiatrist and noted expert in the field of schizophrenia, has gone as far as to suggest prospective parents might want to rethink their plans about when to have a baby and that women should take a man’s age into account when choosing a partner with whom to have children (Raeburn, 2009). Furthermore, Meltzer suggested men store their sperm when

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they are young because the treatment for both autism and schizophrenia is limited and there is no cure.

Much as it is important for older women to prepare their bodies for conception, older men should also make some lifestyle changes before trying to conceive. According to the Mayo Clinic, there are steps men can take to improve both the chances of conceiving and the quality of their sperm (and, thus, the quality of child conceived using that sperm). Many of the factors that would improve sperm quality are the same factors that would improve a man’s life quality: better diet, more exercise, cutting down or completely cutting out alcohol and smoking (especially marijuana). Taking these steps can have a quick impact as it only takes three months before positive changes can occur in the man’s sperm (Healthy Sperm, n,d,).

Summary

The research conducted surrounding the increase in number of new “old” parents is limited or sparse. The majority of the research focuses on the possible physical and mental maladies that might befall the newborn; there is no research dealing with the emotional challenges that both the new parents and the child will face. The fact that the research is lacking is not completely surprising as the advances in the field are occurring at such a rate that the researchers have not had the time to do the research or, once the researchers zeroed in on an area, the technology has rendered that area out-of-date before the research is done.

The subsequent chapter will utilize the reviewed research that is pertinent to the graduate project. It will also address areas where more research would be beneficial for

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the intended audience. The chapter will provide a description of the project, the audience for the project as well as an outline of the podcast presentation.

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CHAPTER 3: PROJECT AUDIENCE AND

IMPLEMENTATION FACTORS

Introduction

Research shows there is an increase in the number of people becoming parents in their later years. A woman giving birth in her fifties was once a rarity, but in the period from 2008 to 2012, the number of women over fifty who have given birth has doubled.

As fertility science progresses, the costs of artificial reproduction techniques become more affordable and the percentage of successful births rise, this trend will most likely continue.

As the phenomena of the newly minted label “old parents” is a relatively new one, many of the challenges that face both the parent and child are still being discovered.

While some of the challenges discussed in previous chapters, e.g. children’s developmental issues or the loss of a parent on a child, have been studied, there is still much left to discuss. This graduate project is intended to address many of the issues in this fast-changing world and to provide assistance to older parents who find themselves with a full nest around the age that many parents are facing an empty nest. It is also to help inform the family and friends of the unique challenges that these new parents face during these times and ways in which they could help support these new parents.

Much as new technology has helped create the phenomena of new old parents, the primary chosen mode to convey this information will also be newer technology. It is my intention to provide a bi-weekly podcast called “The Old Dad,” as part of an overall website for a proposed facility that I plan to start upon licensure called The Center for

Intentional Parenting. Intentional Planning with the double meaning of a) parents who 53

have intentionally set out on the often long and expensive process to use whatever techniques available to them to realize their dream of having a child and b) intentional as in deliberate, conscious, and knowing parenting, which applies to parents both young and old.

This chapter will provide details surrounding the project audience and the implementation factors of the podcast. First, the rationale behind wanting to do a podcast will be discussed and then the target population for the podcast will be identified. Lastly, the qualifications of the professionals who will develop and deliver the podcast will be reviewed and an outline of a typical podcast will be provided.

Development of Project

The creation of this project dealing with older parents had a dual beginning. First,

I am living this scenario. I became a first-time father one month before my 51st birthday.

And while one can prepare for the big arrival with classes and “what to expect when you are expecting” books, nothing can truly replicate the actual experience of the doctor handing you a squirming, screaming, squishy bundle of joy. This experience is nearly universal, but what are not universal are the added challenges of having children at an age when one is closer to the average age of a grandparent than a parent. As I researched the subject of older parents, I realized there was a dearth of material on the topic. A majority of the articles dissolved into two sides debating the ethics of allowing older parents to have babies at all. The shrill arguments break down to the “You are selfish and you will die before the kid grows up” and the “I am older, I am calmer, and I have the resources and the love to give.” However, these arguments lack the nuance that first-time older parents deserve. And, though one would like to ignore the naysayers and embrace the

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yaysayers, there is a ring of truth to what both sides are saying. It is a little selfish and there is a lot of love…and that is the main purpose of this podcast; to take an honest in- depth look at the risks and the rewards. The podcast will attempt to answer the questions that both prospective and current older parents might have. What are the legal risks of using a donor egg? What are the side effects of hormone usage on older mothers? What are healthy ways of discussing the circumstances of their birth with the child? The list can go on and on and, as science marches on, there needs to be a central location where these questions can be answered as well as finding new questions to ask. The podcast, in conjunction with The Center for Intentional Parenting website and facility, plans to be that central location.

From the personal to the professional, the second reason is that as graduate student studying Marriage and Family Therapy, this new population of older parents is the population I plan to work with in my private practice. In my research on the topic of older parents, it is an overstatement to say that this population is being underserved. The issues are too important and the experiences are both new and unique in the dynamics of family therapy. The first time a man walks down the street with his child and someone ask, “Are you the father or the grandfather?” both the father and the child are likely to have feelings about which they will want to discuss.

Much has changed from my first days as a California State University, Northridge

Marriage and Family Therapy graduate student. In the first semester, I was drawn to the

Brief Solution-Focused model of therapy because at that time in my life--returning to college after losing my job of more than 20 years--I needed solutions and I needed them fast. But as I was exposed to more classes and theories and then in my fieldwork with

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people suffering from various stages of dementia at Opica Adult Day Care Center--where nothing is brief and there are no solutions--my therapeutic philosophy evolved.

However, the one thing that has been constant from the first time I introduced myself in my Practicum A class, was that I wanted to work with older parents having children for the first time. At that time, my wife was still six months from giving birth. Today, with a baby who just celebrated 18 months of happy, healthy life, my desire to work with that population has only grown. The instructor of the Practicum A class is also the head of my project team and we have discussed this topic for the last two years.

Intended Audience

The target population of this project is a) older parents who have gone through or are thinking of going through the process of having a child, whether it be through ART, through adoption, or those who conceive a child naturally and b) friends and family member who are involved in supporting these older parents and want a resource guide to understand and to aid their loved ones through a journey that can be equal parts uplifting and heartbreaking. The expected age of Group A would be approximately 40 to 55- years-old and applies to all ethnic groups and marriage/relationship type be it heterosexual or homosexual. The podcast will be conducted in English and a transcript of each episode will be available at the website in the show notes for that particular episode.

Personal Qualifications

This podcast, in conjunction with the website, is intended to be an empowering self-help tool for older new parents who have started the process of becoming, or who have already become “old” parents. This podcast will be available on-line through a

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myriad of locations including the Center’s website, iTunes, and podcast.com. It will be used as a resource in conjunction with couples and family therapy services provided by licensed mental health professionals. Portions of the podcast content will be shaped into a workshop given in settings dealing with fertility and childbirth. The content will also be reproduced in the form of pamphlets and handouts for fertility offices. Finally, the culminating use will be in the form of a published book and proposed reality TV show.

The creator of the project is a Marriage and Family Therapy graduate student who has conducted extensive research surrounding the topic of late-onset parenting and in addition to the general process of becoming a couple and then becoming a parent. The student also has two decades experience in content creation and delivery as well, as extensive interviewing experience. Much of the information imparted in the podcast will be inspired by the personal knowledge gained through the author’s experience of the process from cup (sperm) to cradle (baby).

Weekly Podcast Outline (20-30 minute show, bi-weekly)

1. Introduction

2. Weekly news or developments in the areas of new technology and research in the

field

3. A story from the host relevant to that week’s guest

4. 15-20 minute interview with a guest (the first three guests cover: 1) issues of egg

donors and recipient families; 2) the struggles of an over-45 year old couple to

adopt; and 3) a 39-year old woman who went to freeze her eggs only to discover

she no longer was producing eggs.

5. A wrap-up of the episode

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Each episode will have a dedicated page of show notes on The Center for

Intentional Parenting website, complete with guest bios and links to relevant studies and topics covered in the podcast and well as links for additional books or videos pertinent to that week’s show.

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CHAPTER 4: CONCLUSION

Summary of the Project

The purpose of this project is to develop a podcast for older adults who are becoming parents for the first time, either conceiving naturally or through the use of an artificial reproductive technique. The desire to be a parent stands out as a central life goal of almost everyone (Thornton, & Young-DeMarco, 2001). However, in the past decades, Americas are having babies later in life. The reasons cited for this trend of delaying parenthood include economic issues, high unemployment rates, education/career ambitions, and greater use of contraception and abortion (Goldin & Katz, 2002; Rindfuss,

& Brewster, 2000).

In 2008, the only age bracket of women who saw in increase in the birth rate was those over the age of 40. That rate was the highest rate since 1967 and, of particular note, contained growing number of first-time mothers (Hamilton, Martin, & Ventura, 2009).

According to the research, the number of women over the age of 50 giving birth doubled between the years of 2008 and 2012. In addition, fertility technology has made the once impossible (a woman giving birth after her eggs supply has been exhausted) possible and has created a multitude of modern day Sarahs and Abrahams (the couple in the Bible, whom God blessed with a child, long after Sarah’s childbearing years). As the fertility technology becomes more affordable and the success rates of IVF continue to climb, it is reasonable to assume that trend will grow. Unfortunately, because something can be done, doesn’t mean it should be done and that question of “should” hangs heavy over much of the process of enabling older people to become “old new parents.”

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In light of the uncertainty and, sometimes animosity, surrounding this increasing trend of first-time older parents, the creation of The Old Dad podcast was intended to educate and entertain consumers, as well as providing answers for some listeners, and a food for thought for others. Specifically, the podcast will look at issues facing new parents, considerations for prospective parents, and the broader ramifications for society at whole.

Summary of Evaluation Results

The evaluation of the podcast and the proposed website that will host the podcast was an important part of the development process. That evaluation consisted of soliciting opinions from older people who had recently become parents, as well feedback from people of a certain age who were contemplating beginning the process of either IVF or adoption. Various members of both the medical profession (including OBY-GNs and fertility doctors) and the mental profession (therapists who work with parents and children) were consulted as to elements that either needed to be included or elements in the project that needed more emphasis. In addition, the project committee, in particular, the project chair, provided thoughts and suggestions for the project. Based on the feedback received, several changes were made. The main change had to do with broadening the focus of the project to be inclusive of both older fathers and older mothers. As reviewed in Chapter One, there have always been fathers of a certain age.

What made this a new world ripe with possibilities was the emergence of the mother of a certain age. Earlier carnations of the project tended to gravitate toward that world of the new mother, to the detriment of the male experience. It was important to me to create

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project that spoke to both of the parents (or parents-to-be) which will lead to a broadening of the guests and topics for further podcasts.

There was feedback regarding issues lacking or missing in the project’s current state that will addressed as the project develops. The project in its current incarnation skews toward the heteronormative view point, with the issue of new older homosexual parents only mentioned in passing during one of the podcast interviews. There are also issues of economics, ethnicity and ethics around the topic of fertility treatment and those who seek fertility treatment that deserve further investigation. Again, these issues will be further discussed on both on the website and in future podcast.

Recommendations for Implementation of the Project

The development of this project is intended to both inform as well as connect with as many people as possible. The podcast, tapping the seemingly unlimited reach of the internet, will offer both a point of access for the intended audience and offer the creator of the project immediate feedback on content as well as future topics worth exploring.

The goal is to continue to track what is, and is not working with the show and to make the needed adjustments. This tracking will take place through listener’s emails and comments as well as constant consultation with professionals in the fields of fertility, psychology, and parenting. Due to the rapid changes in the field, with new breakthroughs and new studies on a monthly basis, there is no doubt that the direction of the show will go in ways currently unimagined.

Thus, based on my knowledge of the field, my personal experiences as a new

“old” father, and the feedback I received, I can conclude that the project that I developed will be a valuable tool for both the parents and the families and friends of the parents

61

going through this exhausting, yet rewarding process. Attempting to provide a safe space and straight forward information for potential older parents appears to be well worthwhile based on the current lack of research on the topic of parents of a certain age, the misinformation surrounding late-onset parenting and the public scrutiny and acrimony that these parents often face.

Recommendations for Future Research

Another topic about which there is no doubt, is the dearth of research into most facets of the newer phenomenon of “old new parents.” Many of the questions that beg to be answered are just starting to be asked. For instance, what system of tracking (if any) is being done on test tube babies? A woman who had used a sperm donor shared that her own child had 33 known half-brothers and half-sisters. These are just the children who were listed on a website devoted to the prolific donor, there may be scores of others. The potential of half-siblings marrying may be unlikely, but not impossible.

Also, researchers have looked at the devastating effects of losing a parent on a child, but those parents were usually in their 20’s and 30’s when the child was born; much younger than the current crop of AARP-eligible new parents. In this new world, the 50-year old parent has already starting declining physically before their child is even born. And, if the new 50-year old father of a child lives to the current median age of males in the United States (78.7 years), that child will be burying his father at the tender age of 28, just over 1/3 of the way into the child’s own life. There are also some questions that cannot be answered; is the aforementioned child worse off than a child born to an unwed teenager?

62

With every huge leap in societal and technological change, it often takes a while for the dust to clear and the science to “catch up.” There is little doubt that these unanswered questions, and more questions still yet to be determined, will be the subject of study in further research.

Conclusion

When I started this project I had a straight forward purpose. I want to know what possible hell I wrought when my wife and I decided to take the steps to become parents as our age approached the half-century mark. Two years later and much research later, I realize that it is impossible to know how much, if any. hell at all, has been unleased.

When I reflect on the outcome of the project and where I will take it in the future,

I am struck by both the unknowns and the possibilities. However, it is both—the unknown and the possibilities—that caused a great deal of consternation and a great deal of excitement during the development of the project. The field is so new and the developments are occurring so fast that the ramifications of technology have yet to be studied or absorbed. Louise Brown, the first of over a million test tube babies, just turned

36. While the basic technology of her conception is still in use, the procedures used for

Ms. Brown’s conception are downright antediluvian. But, by all accounts, Ms. Brown is a happy, healthy woman who in 2007 gave birth to a healthy son (conceived naturally).

Still, it is challenging to do a literature review on a topic where there is limited literature.

But it is the unknown that makes this project so enticing. It is that moment of excitement of learning about and exploring the Mumbai egg donor market in the podcast with Kathleen Dennehy. It is that shock of learning that the state of Ohio almost denied

Kathleen a baby because she had been in therapy a dozen years earlier. And, finally, it is

63

the heartbreak of Sarah Fazeli talking about the day she was told she would never have a child from her own eggs. Never have a baby with her eyes or her smile looking back at her. Each interview and each story opens up doors to new stories I never dreamt of exploring. These human stories are something one doesn’t find in any literature review.

And it is these stories that The Old Dad podcast will bring to the light of day.

64

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85

Appendix THE OLD DAD A Podcast for new “old” parents and those who love them

86 THE OLD DAD—TABLE OF CONTENTS THE PODCAST INTERVIEWS Sarah Fazeli ...... pg. 7 Writer and actress Sarah Fazeli shares her heartbreaking experience of going to have her eggs frozen at age 40, only to learn she had no eggs. Judy Weiss ...... pg. 16 In 2005, Judy founded A Jewish Blessing, a website connecting families with Jewish egg donors. In the podcast, Judy shares her ideas for both donor and family. Kathleen Dennehy...... pg. 28 Writer Kathleen Dennehy talks about her long struggle to motherhood. From the broken foster system to transracial adoption, Kathleen has lived it. ADDITIONAL FEATURES

A Letter from The Old Dad...... pg. 1 Meet The Old Dad ...... pg. 3 Why The Old Dad Podcast? ...... pg. 4 Births to Older Mothers Graph ...... pg. 5 AMH Table ...... pg. 9 The Dwindling Egg Supply ...... pg. 10 When to Seek Medical Advice for Infertility...... pg. 11 Sarah Fazeli’s Book Recommendation ...... pg. 14 The ASRM’s Ethics Committee’s Concerns on Egg Donor Payments...... pg. 17 Selected FAQs for Recipient’s on A Jewish Blessing website ...... pg. 22 Selected FAQs for Egg Donor’s on A Jewish Blessing website ...... pg. 25 How You Can Prepare for Transracial Adoption ...... pg. 31 Gay Adoption Statistics ...... pg. 37

87 THE OLD DAD—OLD DAD LETTER pg. 1

A LETTER FROM THE OLD DAD I never thought I would be a dad. As a single man in my mid-40s, I felt that train left the station sometime during the first G.W. Bush administration. Of course, there was still the chance I could become a “step.” But it takes a special man to raise another man’s seed. I know because I was raised by a man who did not have those special qualities and, at the time, those qualities had not made an appearance in my life. So, I was reconciled to being “The World’s Greatest Uncle!” (trademark pending)

However, at that time the wonderful woman who would become my wife entered my life. Diane Goldner, a former reporter for the New York Times and Wall Street Journal now turned energy healer, possessed the dogged persistence of her former profession with the mystical thinking of the latter. Despite the fact that we had reached the bottom shelf of the 400,000 egg she would produce over her lifetime. Despite the fact that the fertility doctor estimated that the odds of us conceiving naturally were “a million to one.” And despite the fact that a test found that my swimmers had the dubious distinction of lacking both speed and distance abilities (But it only takes one!), were only speed bumps that could be overcome with energy healings and acupuncture and good American “Can Do” attitude.

So on February 22, 2013, a month shy of my 51st birthday, a beautiful baby boy named Max Elijah Randleman emerged at a healthy 9 pounds, 1 ounce and life as I could have never dreamed began.

I have many memories of the process from cup (sperm) to cradle (baby). I remember walking into the “donation” room littered with porn for every peccadillo one might

88 THE OLD DAD—OLD DAD LETTER pg. 2 have. I remember my wife sitting in the hall praying over my “donation” before it was combined with the waiting eggs in the IVF lab. I remember several trips to the man the Los Angeles Times called Dr. Amnio and the six-hour waits in his office, once finally having a sonogram at 9:00 p.m. on a Friday night. And, finally, I remember being in the delivery room with the doctor exclaiming, “He’s a big, healthy boy.” And he was.

But I also remember having feelings questioning whether we were doing a good thing. Was it fair to bring a child into the world at the age when most parents are sending their children out into the world? I had a classmate from high school who already had a granddaughter of five. I also remember in high school feeling sorry for one kid whose parents were older, seemingly ancient. Looking back they were probably in their late 30s. What about the risk, both physical and mental, for the unborn child? Most of the studies looking at the children of older fathers showed that sometimes it wasn’t much of a picnic. Unless higher rates of bipolar, schizophrenia and substance abuse are one’s idea of excellent picnic guests. I wanted—no, needed—a place where these concerns were addressed. A place that unflinchingly looked at the issues from all sides to best inform me as I entered uncharted grounds. But, no place existed. Until now.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Old Dad podcast. A place where we will look at those issues, plus many, many more. A place where all opinions on the topic are welcome. And, a place where after that first person asks “Are you Dad or the Granddad?,” you are going want to visit.

The Old Dad, the “Not-So-Old Mom” and Max Elijah on his 1st Birthday

89 THE OLD DAD—WHO IS HE? pg. 3

MEET THE OLD DAD

On February 22, 2013, Mike Randleman officially became “The Old Dad.” But before he added that title to his resume, Mike had a vast and varied life in the field of entertainment. As an actor, Mike has made hundreds of TV and film appearances on shows ranging from ER, Home Improvement, Arrested Development and over 200 sketches on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, where he portrayed such varied characters as Michael Moore, Ms. Universe and Stagehand Mike. His film appearances include Chaplin, A Cinderella Story, the Sundance-award- winning Four Sheets to the Wind and the recently-released Joe Carnahan feature, Stretch. Mike created the award-winning webseries, The Celibate, which he also wrote and directed. The webseries was based on a book of essays Mike wrote called “The Celibacy Posterchild.” In 2010, Mike was honored as a Distinguished Alumni from the College of Fine Arts from Arkansas State University. The next year he was named one of the “100 Most Notable Graduates in ASU’s First 100 Years.” Currently, Mike is a graduate student at California State University, Northridge in Counseling with an emphasis in Marriage and Family Therapy. He is slated to graduate in December of 2014. After a stint at OPICA Adult Day Center working with people coping with various stages of dementia, Mike is currently seeing patients and training at The Maple Counseling Center in Beverly Hills. Upon graduation, Mike plans to work with parents and families, who like himself, were blessed with a late life miracle. “The Old Dad” podcast is a way for Mike to share his experiences and to ask questions about the myriad of issues he wishes he had known about when embarking on his joyful journey.

Launching in early 2015! The Old Dad podcast can be found at www.theolddad.com

90 THE OLD DAD—Why the Podcast? pg. 4 The “New” Old Parent Alec Baldwin, Steve Martin, David Letterman. 55, 67, 56. Those numbers are not celebrity Q ratings measuring popularity. Those are the ages at which each became a father, either for the first time or, in the case of Baldwin, a return to fatherhood after a 22-year break. This is not an entirely new phenomenon, as Charlie Chaplin lived up to his Little Tramp character and fathered a baby at 74 and Tony Randall was one of an odd couple who had a child when he was 76. Unlike the biological time clock that Mother Nature placed on motherhood, a man has a shot (if he could shoot) to beat the biological clock up to the final buzzer of death. However, science is challenging Mother Disease Control (CDC) for 2008, show Nature these days and the roll call of birth rates dropping in the age brackets Hollywood A-list women having babies from teenagers to women in their thirties. while pushing the half-century mark is The age bracket that is the exception to this growing. In January of 2014, four-time downturn is the one age group that, Emmy award winner, Laura Linney gave biologically, should be dropping, or, at the birth to her first child just shy of her 50th most, staying steady. Contrarily, the birthday. She joined a growing list of numbers for women over the age of 40 Hollywood older moms giving birth who were on the rise, with the 40-44-age bracket included Susan Sarandon (46), Halle Berry up over 4%, the highest rate since 1967. (47) and Kelly Preston (48, a.k.a. Ms. John Additionally within this rising group is the Travolta). These celebrity moms could growing number of first-time mothers. almost be called underachievers by giving birth to just a singleton. The list of older What is usually unspoken, much to the mothers having twins includes Beverly consternation of fertility doctors whose D’Angelo (age 49 with 65 year-old father offices are filled with women in their late- Al Pacino), Holly Hunter (47), and Geena 40s wanting to be the next Halle Berry, is Davis (48). Jane Seymour, Marcia Gay the process used by many of the celebrity Harden, and Marcia Cross all had twins at women of a certain age to realize their 45. But former swimsuit model and dreams of motherhood. The chances of a magazine cover girl, Cheryl Tiegs raised the 44-year old woman conceiving with her age bar by having twins at 52. own eggs is 1.6 percent. And since fertility While celebrity mothers are often the experts say that becoming pregnant after face of this sociological shift, the numbers the age of 45 using one’s own eggs is the show the phenomena of older mothers (and equivalent of winning the lottery, it is older parents) are increasing across the almost certain that these celebrity mothers country. Statistics from the Centers for gave birth using donor eggs. This is just

91 THE OLD DAD—Why the Podcast? pg. 5 one of the remarkable advances in the field broader arena of public opinion, the of fertility. While there have always been reaction to the measures taken by the new fathers of a “certain age” (late 40’s and parents is far from positive with these older), these scientific and medical parents often described as selfish. But the advances have opened “the baby window” fact is the number of older parents are that closed for most women in their early- growing and the information about the to-mid 40s. Women who delayed challenges facing these “grandparently” motherhood for whatever reason—career, parents is lacking. the advent of birth control, or delayed As the phenomenon of the newly-minted marriage—often found that aging “old parents” is a relatively new one, many presented issues of reduced and/or of the challenges that face both the parent challenged fertility. However, these rapid and child are still being discovered. While advancements, including in vitro some of the challenges, e.g. children’s fertilization (IVF) and the use of donor developmental issues or the loss of a parent eggs, have jarred that baby window open on a child, have been studied, there is still and it is now common to see the waiting much left to discuss. room of an OBY-GN filled with women from a wide range of ages. I became a first-time father one month before my 51st birthday. And while one However, the ramifications of this can prepare for the big arrival with classes “resetting” of the biological clock are still and “what to expect when you are to be determined and the questions about expecting” books, nothing can truly the new influx of older parents are growing. replicate the actual experience of the doctor The topic of older parents with infants is handing you a squirming, screaming, just starting to be examined in the areas of squishy bundle of joy. This experience is parenting and child development with the nearly universal, but what is not universal long-term effects still unknown. In the are the added challenges of having children

Birth Rates For First-time Older Mothers This CDC chart shows a six-fold increase in first birth rates for women aged 35–39 from 1973 to 2012.

First birth rates for women aged 40–44 increased more than four-fold from 1985 through 2012 (from 0.5 to 2.3).

92 THE OLD DAD—Why the Podcast? pg. 6 at an age when one is closer to the average during these times and ways in which they age of a grandparent than a parent. As I could offer support. researched the subject of older parents, I Eventually, it is also my intention to realized there was a dearth of material on showcase the podcast as part of an overall the topic. A majority of the magazine and website for a proposed facility that I plan newspapers articles on older parents often to start upon licensure called The Center dissolve into two sides debating the ethics for Intentional Parenting. “Intentional of allowing older parents to have babies at Planning” with the double meaning of a) all. The arguments break down to the “You parents who have intentionally set out on are selfish and you will die before the kid the often long and expensive process to grows up” and the “I am older, calmer, and use whatever techniques available to them I have the resources and the love to give.” to realize their dream of having a child and However, these arguments lack the b) intentional as in “deliberate, conscious, nuance that first-time older parents deserve. and knowing” parenting, which applies to And, though one would like to ignore the parents both young and old. naysayers and embrace the yaysayers, there The Old Dad podcast, in conjunction is a ring of truth to what both sides are with The Center for Intentional Parenting saying. It is a little selfish and there is a lot website and facility, hopes to be that of love…and that is the main purpose of central location for “deliberate, conscious, The Old Dad podcast; to take an honest in- and knowing” parenting. depth look at the risks and the rewards. The podcast will attempt answer the questions that both prospective and current older parents might have. What are the legal risks of using a donor egg? What are the side effects of hormone usage on older mothers? Are the offspring truly at higher risk for certain mental and physical defects? The list can go on and on. And, as science marches on, there needs to be a central location where these questions can be answered as well as finding new questions to ask. The Old Dad podcast intends to address many of the issues in this fast- changing world and to provide assistance to older parents who find themselves with a full nest around the age that many parents are facing an empty nest. It is also to help inform the family and friends of the unique challenges that these new parents face

93 THE OLD DAD—Sarah Fazeli Podcast pg. 7

SARAH FAZELI

Sarah Fazeli is a Buckeye-born writer and actress. She holds an MFA from CalArts.

Her essays, memoir, and opinion pieces can be read weekly on xoJane.com. Other work, including creative-non fiction and poetry, appears in A Cup of Comfort for Christmas, Girlwise, Zenith, Fierce and Nerdy, and You Are Here, a Writegirl Anthology.

While in London, she interned for BBC’s Radio Drama division, as well as the Royal Court Theatre. Sarah has written and performed a one- woman show, “Of Wonderbras & Haagen- dazs,” a tour de farce exploring beauty, sex, and full-fat ice cream. A classically trained actor, she studied with David Mamet, William H. Macy, and Felicity Huffman at Practical Aesthetics Workshop.

Mike: Our guest today is Sarah Fazeli and she wrote an excellent article last year called, “I Went To Freeze My Eggs and They Told Me I Didn’t Have Any Left.” Last March, I was at the Surrey Hotel in New York reading this story in the lobby and I swear that my eyes were just watering up. It’s a heart- breaking story that will stay with you. Sarah, welcome to the Old Dad Podcast. I want to thank you for sharing your story and coming to talk about that story today. ...according to the American Sarah: Of course. Thanks so much for having me. Society of Reproductive Mike: Before you do a reading from the story, can you Medicine, married women describe what prompted the article? between the ages of 40 and 44 Sarah: Yeah. I went to freeze my eggs. I had gotten have a 60% chance of out of a twelve-year relationship and a couple of friends remaining childless. of mine had actually done it. And I thought, “Why don’t I do that?” So I made the appointment, I went to USC and never dreamt there would be a problem. And I did the test, a very preliminary basic test and they explained, this is what your level should look like. Anecdotally, the doctor asked me about how old my mother was when she had her last child and I said that she was 40 and she had five children. And my sister had a baby when she was 40. And one of nurses said I should be fine. So I got a phone call from the nurse saying the doctor would like to talk to me personally. I knew that wasn’t a good sign and then I got the most surprising, shocking, very sad news that my level of eggs were actually undetectable.

94 THE OLD DAD—Sarah Fazeli Podcast pg. 8

Mike: So, you were 40 going in for this my plan. If I didn’t get pregnant naturally in a couple procedure actually as a precaution, right? Just as of years, I would defrost my eggs and do the IVF, an insurance policy that you would have some eggs even thought the number show a less than 15% available for later when you got this news. I think chance of success per cycle at age 40. Freezing my this would be a good time for you to give us a eggs still seemed like a smart thing to do. reading from the piece. Dr. Chung asked how old my mother was when she reached menopause and I said she had my Sarah: So the sub-line is, “I Went To Freeze youngest sister at the age of 40. My eldest sister My Eggs and They Told Me, I Don’t Have Any Left.” had also given birth at the age of 40. Another sister At the age of 40, there was no time to dilly-dally. If I wanted biological children, I had to do something has four children, including a set of twins. She fast. I decided to freeze my indicated that my family’s record was a positive and eggs. I had recently gotten thaat, anecdotally, this was out of a 12-year marriage; a ...That was my plan. If I didn’t a good sign. She drew marriage I was sure would get pregnant naturally in a sketches of ovaries and result in children. Ha! We’d couple of years, I would defrost never even tried. Not fallopian tubes and wrote because I didn’t want to, my eggs and do the IVF... out numbers and statistics for me. The first step was to hell, it was in the vows. I had do a simple blood test, their names all picked out called the AMH that and imagined family trips to Disneyland, piano measures one’s remaining egg supply or ovarian recitals and eventually college applications. Why it took me so long to get out of the marriage when reserve. She explained what statistically the results my partner and I just clearly didn’t want the same would mean. 2.0. Optimal. We usually see this in young women in their 20s and early 30s. 1.0 to 2.0 things is something I could ask myself forever. I Good to Fair. She said we usually see this in women had to do something fast. When I learned that two ages 30 to 42. 1.0. Low. Often after age 45. And of my friends had frozen their eggs, the answer was then there is Undetectable or too late. We usually clear. Time is of the essence. And every month that goes by, more fertility is lost. While women age 20 see this in women ages 49 or 50. She underlined to 24 show only a 7% rate of infertility, women ages the words, too late. 40 through 44 show a nearly 30% rate. I had just been to the grocery store and pulled up to the dry cleaners when my phone rang. It was According to the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, married women between Dr. Chung’s nurse, Teri, who I was told would the ages of 40 and 44 have a 60% chance of contact me for the next step. When she said Dr. Chung would like to speak to me herself, my heart remaining childless. And all women in this age dropped into my stomach. The doctor greeted me group have a 34% risk of miscarriage. At 40, there’s warmly, giving me the name of a urologist, she had a 1 in 106 risk of Down syndrome. promised to look up. I thought, “Oh, good. It’s fine. I chose USC Fertility and made an appointment She probably just wanted to give me the name of immediately. Dr. Karine Chung was wonderful, that doctor. Everything felt right. Then, she paused. kind, warm. She explained everything in detail, “Remember, we went over the levels and the AMH wanting to make sure I understood the process. It’s and what those numbers mean?” “Yes.” “I’m sorry the same as in vitro fertilization; they would give to tell you this but yours unfortunately, are me medication, including a self-injection, in order undetectable.” I couldn’t speak. “I’m so sorry,” she to harvest my eggs and freeze them. When I was said. “These levels are unusual for someone your ready to come back in to defrost and use my eggs, age. We don’t know what happens but sometimes it there will be only a 33% success rate per IVF cycle. does.” For a moment, I said nothing. Did I hear her That is why they recommend doing three cycles. correctly? Was she really saying what I thought she There is actually financing for IVF packages that was saying? I had my hand over my mouth and was include two or three cycles at a discount. That was trying not to cry over the phone. “I know this is not

95 THE OLD DAD—Sarah Fazeli Podcast pg. 9 the news you were hoping for,” she said. levels. I had to know my exact AMH level, “Had I “But…but,” I finally got out, “What about the other reached zero?” tests? Aren’t there two more tests?” I tried to sound calm but there was a gust of sobs threatening to burst I emailed Dr. Chung’s nurse and she wrote back through. “There this one that measures your FSH, with the number and a sympathetic note, “Please which is responsible for promoting and sustaining let me know if there’s anything I can do.” ovarian follicular growth. The other is an ultrasound Less than .1%. My AMH level was less than where we look to see how many follicles you have.” one tenth above zero. I was trying to find a way to She paused. “But I want to clarify that the first test see a glimmer of hope. I saw a different doctor at is the gold standard.” USC for the ultrasound. I kept trying to see the “But there’s still a chance?” I said. “We would screen while the doctor was— what he was doing estimate your chance of success as very, very low, and he kept turning it toward him. I wondered, is something around 3%.” I sobbed outright. “I don’t he trying to get a better view or trying to keep me want to give you false hope,” she said. “But, I do from seeing something? He pressed some buttons want you to keep in mind that the only women and took some pictures and occasionally moved this coming in to test their AMH levels usually have transvaginal wand around a bit. I could see the grey fertility problems that brought them to us in the first and white pictures moving. place. We have no way of knowing how many I had always imagined one day doing an women out there just have low AMH levels and get ultrasound like this but looking at a tiny baby on spontaneously pregnant or how valid the AMH test the screen. “See,” he said, “here’s a follicle right is for women who have never tried to get pregnant.” here.” And he pointed to a black spot. “But for A glimmer, just a glimmer of hope. someone your age, we’d like to see five or six I had been crying now for a week straight. I follicles on each side.” I watched his eyes search kept kicking myself. If only I’d frozen my eggs at for more. There had to be more. He moved to the age 30, when I was ready but my husband wasn’t or other side. “And here’s one on the other side,” he age 33, or age 35. My sister was an RN and said. “This is in line with the other tests. At this reiterated what the Dr. Chung said about this point, if your goal is to achieve a pregnancy, I statistics being skewed. She suggested I read the recommend using a donor egg.” Achieve a book, “Taking Charge of Your Fertility.” I wish I pregnancy? It sounded so clinical. I didn’t want to had read this book when I was 20 years old. It is achieve a pregnancy. I wanted to have a baby. I sex-positive, empowering and should be required wasn’t ready to hear about donor eggs or even reading for every woman, regardless if they want international or domestic adoption. And please, if children or not. I researched everything you could you have a friend dealing with infertility, a what- possibly learn about ovarian reserve, diminished not-to-do is flippantly say, “Well, you can always ovarian reserve and premature ovarian failure. I adopt!” as if it’s as easy as one, two, three and free. educated myself about AMH, FSH and estradiol And in time, I will research those options. I do know

Sarah’s AMH level was less than .1% Below is a table that shows some insight into meaning of these blood levels.

AMH Interpretation Expected Anticipated Anticipated Level Response to Cancellation Pregnancy Rate FSH Rate with IVF with IVF >3.0 High Very High Low Normal 1.0-3.0 Normal Good Low Normal 0.4-0.9 Low Reduced Increased Reduced <0.4 Very Low Very Poor Very High Very Low

96 THETHE OLDOLD DAD—DAD—SarahSarah FazeliFazeli PodcastPodcast pg. pg. 10 4 there is more than one path to parenthood. But what I need to do right now is grieve the baby I will ...I know there is more than one path to probably never conceive or give birth to, or see my parenthood. But what I need to do right eyes or my smile in his or hers. now is grieve the baby I will probably Mike: Thank you. Thank you for reading that. never conceive or give birth to, or see It’s as moving today as when I read it in March. It’s my eyes or my smile in his or hers... been seven months since you wrote that, has anything changed or is this your first time to revisit the article? women who thought, “Oh, no. I better— what’s my AMH level? Should I get…” I mean, someone asked Sarah: Yeah. Just reading it, I kind of thought me on their comment, “should I get this test?” And that I’d come to terms with a lot of it in therapy and that was an interesting question. I am in favor of talking about it with close friends. And reading it getting the test. I think it’s a great gauge. I personally now, I realized that I have a little more work to do spent so long— the huge conflict for me in this very as far as acceptance and, of course, I’m still trying long 12 year marriage was wanting to have a baby to get pregnant. But every month that goes by, it almost since the beginning, like, maybe after two seems less and less likely so, there’s been a lot of years, I was ready to go. So I’ve just wondered how trying to disengage from the idea of—and you can that relationship would have changed if I knew 10 get really obsessed with the idea of having a years ago that this was not an option for me. At the biological baby. And then, of course, I’ve been same time, I wonder if we had really tried 10 years researching other options and all of that but, yeah, I ago would it have been an option for me; was my think, I need a little more time. egg supply always this low? It’s possible that it Mike: Especially, when you were reading the always has been, you see what I mean? There’s no last paragraph, I could feel it in your voice. So, way of knowing. you’ve been doing a lot of research since March Mike: So it’s a big game of “what if “for you. and I guess this article got picked up by the Did you talk to your husband about having children Huffington Post. And a lot of people actually read it before you were married? and that’s a good thing. What was some of the reaction you got? Sarah: Oh, yeah. That was in the vows, and I made sure it was. That was one of the things I had Sarah: Well, the main reaction I got was a lot of heard in other weddings, it was a Catholic compassion and sympathy and empathy. I mean, wedding— well, bureaucratically. And the vow was, honestly, people reaching out and saying, “I’m so the priest said, “Will you lovingly and willingly sorry,” or “I never thought about this before,” or accept children from God?” And we both said, “Yes.” And that was a huge part of how I thought THE DWINDLING EGG SUPPLY our life together was going to be. I mean, I visualized these trips to Disneyland and family According to the National Collaborating vacations. And I know they’re not all Kodak Centre for Women’s and Children’s moments but I also visualized doing what people do, you’re staying with the baby all night and when Health, over her lifetime a woman will they’re sick and being a mom. I mean, I sort of produce almost 400,000 eggs while losing carved my identity around this idea. And honestly, in the area of 13,000 a year. At age 37, a I did this but I put off a lot of other goals because I kept thinking, “Well, let me get the mom thing,” woman is left with approximately 25,000 and it was like, every year, let me get the mom thing eggs and this coincides with a marked drop going. And every year, my ex-husband put it off or in fertility. Finally, around age 43, the egg didn’t feel like it was the right time. You know, looking back, there was a red flag that I want to supply is nearly exhausted which greatly warn women about in general. There was one reduces the possibility of pregnancy. conversation we had where it was kind of like, “you

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When should you seek medical advice for infertility? 1. Most couples should try on their own for 12 months before seeking professional advice. 2. Women over the age of 35 should consult their physicians after six months of trying. 3. Women who have irregular cycles or with a known or suspected risk factor for infertility should seek medical advice once they decide to start a family. do want children, don’t you?” And he said, “Well, I People magazine and all these stuff where you see want them if you want them.” And I look now back women like Laura Linney and Halle Berry giving to that and I go, “That isn’t a very good answer.” birth at later and later ages at 40, 42, 44 and it’s so easy to get this false impression that, “Well, hey...” Mike: So, there was a little red flag at the time It’s kind of a common— “Well, hey, technology is but not enough to… great now,” or “you Sarah: Looking know, people do it.” back, I’m like, “That ...I know they’re not all Kodak And I remember going was not good.” But at to— I had forced this moments but I also visualized doing OB/GYN appointment the time, you’re in love what people do, you’re staying with the and you wanna get and insisted my married and I think at baby all night and when they’re sick husband come along. I the time, he probably and being a mom. I mean, I sort of was probably like, I don’t know, 33 or 34. was like, “Okay. This is carved my identity around this idea.... what you’re supposed to And part of the reason I do.” And for whatever wanted him to come reason, it happens in marriages and people change along is I wanted back up, I wanted somebody to their minds or perhaps, he never really meant it. He say, “Hey, this is no joke. You really have to take was very young when we got married. He was only this seriously.” And that is exactly what she did. 22 when we got married. I think we were 22 when She looked at both of us and said, “Do you both we met. And we got married a little bit over a year know you want children?” And we said, “Yes.” And later, so, we were pretty young. But it’s definitely she said, “I recommend starting right away. something I’d always imagined and plan for. And Because I’ve been in this business for 20 years even now, when I look at my life, I can’t believe and I’ve seen women, they turn 37, they turn 38, this is really my life. I can’t believe all of these they think they’re getting pregnant and it just didn’t happen according to plan. doesn’t happen.” And my husband was like, “We’re not ready.” That’s the big one—we’re not ready. Mike: So, it seems like a lot of women, for “We’re not financially ready.” And she just looked career reasons or whatever reasons, keep putting at both of us and she said, “Well, you’re never have a baby off and are not really considering the ready. This is my professional advice to you.” So, consequences. Did your gynecologist or did anyone looking back on that, I wonder if maybe I— there’s talk to you about this, like, sooner is better or were so many questions. Should have I left the marriage there any warning signs? at that point, maybe I would’ve bought myself a few more years. Should I have insisted? I don’t Sarah: Yeah. That’s a good question. Because know. I don’t know. there are two specific points. When I look back, obviously, from a smarter medical perspective but Mike: It’s a tough question and I do agree it’s really easy, especially in LA, or I guess with you. We see all of these celebrities having anywhere, with movie stars and Hollywood and babies, women who were in their late 40’s and early

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50’s are having children. But they never say that more than likely it was a donor egg. Because after ...“I mean, you can find a million the age of 45, getting pregnant with your own eggs excuses, we’re not ready.” That’s the is like winning the lottery. And they leave that part big one—we’re not ready. We’re not out. And I do think that has a debilitating effect on women who think that it can happen anytime. financially ready. And she just looked at both of us and she said, “Well, you’re Sarah: And that’s interesting because I think, never ready... when people do think about “technology,” their mind goes to in vitro. I don’t think people think Mike: Right. I became a father one month that much about donor eggs. And that’s what a lot before I turned 51. And I don’t have the energy I of older moms are doing, are using and that is great would have had 20 years earlier, but I don’t think I option. Do not get me wrong, I have looked at that would have been emotionally equip to do it at that option; it’s a very expensive option. But it’s age. There wasn’t a maturity level. So, I see in a definitely a very specific choice. And both partners way some of the validity of the commenters who need to be completely onboard. It’s a thing. You’re mentioned age, but still—it’s kind of shaming for creating a biological child with genetic material this woman and it’s a little disturbing. that’s not yours; and it’s different than adopting and it’s different than having completely your genetics Sarah: You know, I just wanna say one thing. biological child. It’s a whole different animal. And If you’re a woman. It’s like you’re damned if you it’s something that needs to be thought about when do and you’re damned if you don’t. Because if you you take everything under consideration. don’t have children, some people randomly accuse you of being selfish but they don’t even know your Mike: Recently in the New York Post, I read circumstances or if some people have that choice. an article about a single mother, she was 51, about But we can be accused of being very selfish because to have her 2nd child. And the comments— well, you’re an older mother to, so it’s like you can’t win it’s the internet, so, you know the comments are and, I don’t know, all you can do is ignore those gonna be brutal, but this woman was called “selfish” crazy commenters. and “a dried up old hag, who can’t have a baby on your own” and these very venomous comments, but Mike: So that’s interesting. You’re saying that it does raise a question. Do you think there’s an women without children are shamed? outer limit for women or is there an age that you would feel uncomfortable having a child? Sarah: Yeah. I’ve seen that a lot. And there’s this weird flip side with the people, the friends or— Sarah: I think, no. I think the most important certain friends I have that have children feel like, thing to offer a child is your love and stable “Oh, I’m so jealous,” or to say something— I envy environment. And I think, if you can do that— some your life so much— so much freedom. And it’s like, people bring a child in the world at the age of 22 just shut up. I mean, you really wanna give up your and they are unable to offer them a stable sons and daughters for the “awesome freedom that environment or unable to love them in certain ways. I have.” I do have freedom. I have a different kind So I don’t think it matters what age you are as long of freedom. But I am also missing a big piece of as you’re able to do those things. I think it’s really what I think is, sort of, I use the word, every hard on your body to give birth. I have four sisters woman’s birthright. You have the right to have a and one gave birth recently at 40. I suppose her child if you want to. There is this weird, kind of first one was, I don’t know, at 31 or something, like, I don’t know if it’s false envy or if it’s just a and she was saying how much harder it is on your way of asking or trying to be played or— but that body when you’re older. I think it is difficult as far can be really irritating. as biologically giving birth to a child, but I think as far as parenting a child, it doesn’t matter what Mike: In your article, you wrote that whatever age you are or starting the parenthood journey I you do, don’t tell them, “Oh, that’s all right. You should say. can just adopt.”

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Sarah: Yeah. domestic adoptions now are open. And that’s a very different experience than international adoption Mike: Was that actually said to you or where which may in some ways, eventually, be sort of more there other things said open but for the most to you that would… part, it’s pretty closed. Sarah: Yeah. I ...You know, I just wanna say one thing. Mike: We spoke to think people— and I’ve If you’re a woman. It’s like you’re someone last week heard that before like, damned if you do and you’re damned about, they adopted when people say, “Ah, if you don’t. Because if you don’t have trans-racially, a little I don’t know. Oh, you African-American girl don’t have to decide children, all people randomly accused and the whole process now. You can always you of being selfish but I mean, they sounded just torturous adopt.” And I’ve heard don’t even know your circumstances. in a way and the pins people, go to this. And But that’s disturbing because an older and needles you’re on I think people say it in while you’re waiting the moment because mother is also being accused of being for a mother to choose they don’t know what selfish, so it’s like you can’t win... you and they have three to say. It’s sort of days to decide either positive and they think way. It sounds like a lot it’s encouraging and it’s not. That might be true in of stress in that situation. I’m sure you researched a very thoughtful conversation with a good friend, all of that. “Would you consider having a family another way?” But to say, “Oh, you know, you can always Sarah: I did. And there’s a book by Dan Savage, adopt.” It is a serious ordeal to adopt. And I am I think it’s called, “The Kid,” which my boyfriend impressed with my friends who have gone through had gotten me and thought it would be very positive. the process, I have several friends who have done And it was actually—I had a kind of a negative take international adoption which have taken them years away about this very, very difficult adoption process. to accomplish and many dollars and a friend who A good friend of mine just had two failed adoptions, did domestic adoption. And someone I know one was international. She said they would accept a adopted three foster cares. And having a child is a special needs child and they had to make very hard serious commitment. But there’s a different kind choices. Because you can kind of decide, what kind of commitment to pursue adoption. of special needs you’re prepared for. Once an answer came back that this child would probably Mike: And being a single woman, is that a not survive past age of nine. So they had to make detriment in that process at all? this terrible choice. Sarah: I’ll tell you what. One thing I noticed Mike: Just this week, Facebook and Apple in my research, internationally, it is better to be a announced that they would pay for their female single woman than to be an unmarried couple if employees to freeze their eggs. And that brought you adopt internationally. It’s just the way it is. I’m up a lot of questions for people, is that a good thing, sort of at a point to where a lot of countries don’t etc.? I’m sure you read a little bit about that. Did want me because of my age. There are age limits in you have any thoughts about that, and egg freezing many countries. Sometimes they do this weird thing overall? where they asked that the combined age of both partners and it has to be less than 76 or something Sarah: Yeah, I did see that. I thought that was like that. So it is more difficult, it’s like, “Well, really interesting because it’s a very expensive gosh. If I was gonna adopt, I should have started process to freeze your eggs. It’s probably about this process sooner too. I do think domestic $10,000 to do one harvest. And it’s recommended adoption is a little bit easier. But that again, is a you do more than one. So I’m impressed in that very specific choice because 95% of all the way. I think it’s also a little bit like, “Oh, well, let’s

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freeze our eggs, come work for us.” And it sort of your late 30’s, early 40’s, when your career is really buys into that idea that freezing is an insurance taking off and you’re making good money. Really policy. And it’s not,. People call it “eggsurance,” there’s no good time “career-wise” to have a kid. I but it’s not an insurance policy. It’s a little bit like know having a child affects women adversely in what you said about buying a lotto ticket. If you their career. But, yeah, I admire the benefit. It’s nice don’t play, you can’t win, like, it’s better to have a to have a little insurance. But the thought process couple of eggs in the bank than no eggs at all. behind, I’m still trying to come to grips with. Mike: Exactly. Sarah: It is important to note that— and it is pretty amazing that when you freeze your eggs, they Sarah: I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I wouldn’t stay that age. If you freeze your eggs at 28 and you turn it down if I were working for Apple or go back and use them when you’re 40, you’re gonna Facebook. I think it’s moving in the right direction have a baby reflecting your 28-year old self, that’s as far as health benefits for women. But I think it awesome. You know, your risk of everything goes should be considered a health benefit and not a down, so that’s an advantage. But it’s not a plan. family planning option. Mike: I’m sure people have asked you about Mike: I read one article that it did say, the the topic but what advice do you give to women company’s having you freeze your eggs so you can who are younger or your age, I’m sure you have concentrate on your career with the company but, some thoughts for them. usually, by the time you would use them, you’re in

SARAH FAZELI’S BOOK RECOMMENDATION

From the author’s website: Are you unhappy with your current method of birth control? Or are you demoralized by your quest to have a baby? Do you also experience confusing signs and symptoms at various times in your cycle, but are frustrated by a lack of simple explanations? This invaluable resource will help you find the answer to your questions while giving you amazing insights into your own body. Taking Charge of Your Fertility has helped literally hundreds of thousands of women achieve pregnancy, avoid pregnancy naturally, or simply gain better control of their health and lives. This book thoroughly explains the empowering Fertility Awareness Method, which in only a couple of minutes a day allows you to: *-enjoy highly effective and scientifically proven birth control without chemicals or devices *-maximize your chances of conception before you see a doctor, or expedite your fertility treatment by quickly identifying impediments to pregnancy achievement *-increase the likelihood of choosing the gender of your baby *-gain control of your sexual and gynecological health

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Sarah: Yeah. If you want children, get pregnant. Try to get pregnant and try to get pregnant right away. There are times when I don’t have enough ...If you want children, get pregnant. money, you will never have enough if you think Try to get pregnant and try to get you want to have a child. People had children who pregnant right away. I just think, you have a lot less than you, as long as you have a loving know, there were times when I didn’t home, can offer them love and support. I just think think I had enough money, you will you’re gonna be kicking yourself later if you don’t go for it. Please believe that there is no time like never have enough. People had the present and there are no guarantees about children who have a lot less than you, tomorrow. as long as you have a loving home, can offer them love and support. I just think Mike: That’s beautifully put. At the beginning, we told people where they can find you but would you’re gonna be kicking yourself later you like to share where you’re writing these days if you don’t go for it, like, please believe so people can hurry right over there because you that there is no time like the present are very funny woman, despite the topic of today. and there are no guarantees about Sarah: I have a website, www.sarahfazeli.com. tomorrow.... I write a lot for XOJane.com and I’m writing a memoir right now, I’m writing a book called, Awake and Asleep in Fantasyland. And hopefully that’ll be completed by the end of the year. Mike: Wonderful. We wanna thank you because this is a highly personal topic for you and I’m sure it’s not easy to talk about but I think everyone needs to hear that story and we wanna thank you for sharing that. Sarah: Thank you so much. Thank you. It’s a pleasure talking to you.

102 THE OLD DAD—Judy Weiss Podcast pg. 16 JUDY WEISS A Jewish Blessing was founded by Judy Weiss in 2005 in response to the growing number of requests from Jewish families for her help in finding qualified and extraordinary young Jewish donors. Her background as Nurse Coordinator of a successful clinic based Egg Donation Program, along with her experience in the field of fertility and her more than 34 years of experience counseling patients, has provided her with the vast experience and sensitivity required for this challenging role. Judy, who was raised in an Orthodox Jewish home and educated in Yeshiva and post High School Seminary in Israel, is familiar with the many intricacies of Jewish Law which can affect the families she works with. Additionally, as the child of a Holocaust Survivor she has a strong dedication to the continuity of Jewish heritage and culture through future generations. "I have always been exquisitely aware of myself in this world as a Jew and have walked gratefully through my life with a unique appreciation for the manner in which my Judaism has shaped me as a human being. It is inseparable from my identity as a woman, a mother, a child, a friend..." Mike: Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to this edition of The Old Dad podcast. Today we have a very special guest. As you know in the last five years the number of women over 50 giving birth has doubled. And a lot of that, almost all of that due to women using egg donors. So, today our special guest is Judy Weiss of A Jewish Blessing and she works putting happy egg donors together with happy couples to make happy babies. Also, there are some people in your life that you’ve never met but have made major contributions to your life and in my case that person would be Judy. So, welcome Judy— Judy: Thank you so much. Mike: And we’re honored to have you. Judy: Thank you so much. I’m honored to be here. Mike: So, tell us how did you get into the egg donor game? Judy: That one is a very interesting question. I was a psychiatric nurse for almost 20 years and had made the decision that I really wanted to segue into an area that I was always interested in which was women’s health. It was another passion of mine. I’m very fortunate and I was hired into a clinic setting in New Jersey by two lovely doctors and coming from a psychiatric background that was just a perfect setting for me. I really just fell in love with fertility nursing. But I certainly had no intention of being involved in the egg donor segment of that care. In fact there was a nurse who was handling that when I

103 THE OLD DAD—Judy Weiss Podcast pg. 17 arrived there. And, unfortunately she needed to take Judy: Yeah, I would say it was dumped in my an emergency medical leave and I became the proud lap and it literally it was dumped in my lap and it owner of the egg donor program at that point. was a huge gift, so. And I will admit that I wasn’t very happy or Mike: My first question would be what has excited about it when I first got the program. There changed in egg donor world in the last 16 years? were major issues that were presented for me in terms of the amount of responsibility I felt towards Judy: Now that’s an interesting question. I think my patients when I was matching and things like on the recipient end of things what has changed is that. I can tell you that 16 years later I feel very that the screening techniques of the donors has blessed that that happened and I’m very grateful improved and that’s really wonderful. It was a little that I was given that program to run. bit more guess work when I first started. We didn’t screen donors as efficiently. And I think now clinics Mike: Wow, so you fell into it— have much easier time identifying who’s going to be a good candidate and who’s not. So, that’s one

The ASRM’S Ethics Committee’s Concerns Raised by Payment Women undergoing retrieval purely to provide oocytes to others are exposed to physical and psychologic burdens they would not otherwise face. There is some risk of unintentional pregnancy, because hormonal contraceptives must be discontinued for donation to occur. Donors also are exposed to risks of morbidity and a remote risk of mortality from COS and oocyte retrieval. Although the data are unclear at this time, it is possible that fertility drugs and procedures involved in oocyte donation could increase a woman’s future health risks, including the risk of impaired fertility. Young women may be prone to dismiss the potential psychologic consequences of donation, particularly those that could arise if theylater experience infertility problems themselves. In addition, they may underestimate the psychologic and legal consequences of their agreement to forgo parental rights and future contact with children born to oocyte recipients. Another ethical concern is that payment for oocytes implies that they are property or commodities, and thus devalues human life. Many people believe that payment to individuals for reproductive and other tissues is inconsistent with maintaining important values related to respect for human life and dignity. This view is reflected in state and federal laws prohibiting direct payment to individuals providing organs and tissues for transplantation. Yet such laws generally permit organ and tissue donors to receive reimbursement for expenses and other costs associated with the donation procedure. In the analogous circumstance of biomedical research, human subjects exposed to physical and psychologic risks are often reimbursed for expenses. Moreover, they may receive additional payments to compensate for the time and inconvenience associated with study participation. These facts support the compensation of oocyte donors regardless of the ultimate use of the oocytes (e.g., fertility therapy or research). Compensation based on a reasonable assessment of the time, inconvenience, and discomfort associated with oocyte retrieval can and should be distinguished from payment for the oocytes themselves. Payment based on such an assessment is also consistent with employment and other situations in which individuals are compensated for activities demanding time, stress, physical effort, and risk. As payments to women providing oocytes increase in amount, the ethical concerns increase as well. The higher the payment, the greater the possibility that women will discount risks. High payments, particularly for women with specific characteristics, also convey the idea that oocytes are commercial property. Moreover, high payments are disturbing because they could be used to promote the birth of persons with traits deemed socially desirable, which is a form of positive eugenics. Such efforts to enhance offspring are morally troubling because they objectify children rather than assign them intrinsic dignity and worth. Finally, high payments could make donor oocytes available only to the very wealthy

104 THE OLD DAD—Judy Weiss Podcast pg. 18 change that has affected parents. The other changes certainly don’t want women coming and applying that have occurred really is a blessing to the families and going through this very labor intensive who are using egg donors and IVF procedures in application process and then decide if they really general is that the laboratories have really improved want to do that. That’s the wrong order. So, we try their skills. to provide the education and the information, answer whatever questions they have and then they And, so, whereas when I first started in the field, begin the application process. And again that embryos needed to be process is pretty labor transferred on the second intensive. day that they were formed ...the hope was that they could cap because we didn’t even the compensations for donor because There’s a huge know how to grow them what they really didn’t want to see amount of work that in dishes or we weren’t the donors need to put good at growing them in happening was that young women in, time to clarify dishes. But right now the would be coerced by large sums of various aspects, family techniques have really money into donating their eggs. That’s history. We ask them improved and we’ve seen the danger... very detailed questions a huge change in terms of about their success rate because of grandparents and aunts that. So I’m happy to say that most families can and uncles and most people, if you were to ask find a clinic that will give them something like a 70 anybody on the street to fill out an application that to 80% success, you know, chance of success and we have, they probably wouldn’t have a lot of that that’s amazing. It was really not like that sixteen information. I wouldn’t be able to fill it out. So, it years ago. requires a lot of home work, you know, going back and forth to family members and asking questions. Mike: And it’s amazing. For a long time that And, I would say that the average length of time number was like 0 to 40%. for the donors that we screen is something between Judy: Probably. I don’t know. I have to go back. three and six months. That’s not an unusual timeline. You could probably go back and check those Mike: They just don’t call up and show up the numbers. They are published which is great. But I next day. That’s a long process. know that we’ve really seen a change. And so it’s amazing. When families come to us, I’m really Judy: Well, not at A Jewish Blessing. I can’t optimistic that they’re going to actually become speak for other places. I think that we have a unique parents. There’s much less guess work. I think in screening process. We’re nurse-run and we are very my mind I appreciate that many things are not in much invested in making sure that our families our control and there’s always a greater plan and, really have as much information in terms of family you know, we walk around praying that the family medical history as possible. So, because our comes to us and falls into that 70 and 80% category. standard of practice is very high we, our donors really go through a lot to help us get what we need Mike: Let’s say that I am a young woman and I from them. want to be an egg donor and I contact you, is there a quick overview you can tell me what happens Mike: You mentioned A Jewish Blessing and when she calls you? your website is a wonderful resource for information. And, I was there re-reading today and Judy: We have a very excessive donor screening one thing that stuck out to me is that the program. So, I can tell you that when a donor gets recommended fee for an egg donor is $8,000 and I in touch with us the first thing we do is to try to did not know that. How did that come about? That educate her about what the process is about so that was something I, for some reason thought it was a she can really make an informed decision about free market issue— whether she even wants to apply to become a donor. There’s a very long application process and we

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Judy: Were you under the impression? You, you very, very concerned about the health and well- thought— being of our donors. And I think it is part of, probably my largest obligation when I deal with Mike: That you could get, if your eggs were in donors is to really make sure that I’ve counseled demand, you could get $20,000. them well in that I’ve evaluated with them what’s Judy: Ah yeah. This is a very interesting area. driving their decision and that it’s not just that they I’d love to address this issue with you. Thankfully, desperately need $8,000 tomorrow but that they we have wonderful medical ethical teams in place truly in 20 years from now look back and say, “I to regulate the industry, and I’ll call it an industry feel amazing that I helped this family,” because if because there is an organization to regulate the egg they don’t feel like that then I’ve contributed to donor fertility industry. The Society for Assistive doing something that I think will ultimately be Reproductive Technology is there. There are many, damaging for them. Again I’m a psych nurse first many medical people involved in coming up with before anything else and so my concern is always guidelines so that things remain ethical. So that the psychological health and well-being of my group had sat down quite awhile ago and came up families and my donors. And this is really a huge with recommendations. The hope was that they area for donors. could cap the compensations for donors because Mike: There are so many levels that on the what they really didn’t want to see happening was surface you don’t even think about, but when you that young women would be coerced by large sums start digging into it I would have never thought of money into donating their eggs. That’s the about this concept of coercion and a black market. danger. Judy: Yeah, yeah. Mike: Oh. Mike: Now you specialize, as the name of the Judy: Eliminate the big dollars and $10,000 is website states, A Jewish Blessing. You work with a lot of money. But there is a cap of $10,000. Now Jewish egg donors. what that doesn’t do is it doesn’t stop private families from saying, “I’m looking for an Ivy Judy: Jewish egg donors, yes,, League donor with blond hair and green eyes and I’ll pay her $100,000.” That happens. So, if you Mike: I read that when you started you only want, you can find the donor and spend way more found three Jewish donors? money than that. But an organization like A Jewish Judy: Oh, yes because the history is that when Blessing is part of these medical ethical groups and I ran the program at the clinic I screened, I don’t you have the same concerns, you share those know the exact number but I will say probably over concerns about young women doing this for the a thousand donors and I was there for almost eight correct reasons and not just the money, you really years. So we had hundreds of applications cross stick to those guidelines. And we will not my desk. And in the entire time I was there and compensate a donor more than $10,000. That is mind you the clinic was in an area that had a large definitely the max. Jewish population, only three Jewish donors had Mike: And I found it interesting that if you feel applied in that entire eight years. So, I knew that that they are just only doing it for financial reasons Jewish women were not severely banging down the that, that you won’t take them. doors of clinics to go donate their eggs. Judy: We won’t take them. That being said there I was very fascinated by these cultural differences and which groups were Mike: So, what are you looking for? You’re going to donate eggs and who is less inclined. I looking for what else from them? can tell you that East Indian donors, very hard to find. And there are certain groups, Asian also very Judy: And actually I want to answer that. The hard. reason we won’t take them is because I am very,

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Mike: And— ...I’ve evaluated with them what’s Judy: Jewish women were in that category. driving their decision and that it’s not Mike: And what are the cultural issues you feel just that they desperately need $8,000 make Jewish women reluctant to donate? tomorrow but that they truly in 20 years Judy: I think that in certain cultures there’s this from now look back and say, “I feel certain sense of family. So, if you were to approach amazing that I helped this family,” a Jewish woman about donating to her sister or a because if they don’t feel like that then cousin or family member, same as I mentioned with East Indian and Asian, there’s more of an inclination I’ve contributed to doing something to keep it in the family and perhaps that’s the issue. that I think will ultimately be damaging And, and, and I think that other people have for them... speculated that perhaps that there isn’t as much of the financial need, that’s part of it. So, they’re less Judy: Yeah. inclined. Mike: What kind of familes...are there any traits Mike: That’s interesting. And so you saw that of a families who come to see you? Is it women need— who can’t have children because of age? Or is there a typical family— Judy: No, I didn’t. [Laughs] I didn’t really see the need. I was aware of the need. Judy: I think any time that you’re dealing in recipient families looking for egg donors, they fall Mike: Oh. into different groups. But the majority of them are women who are either single or who didn’t meet Judy: What happened was that I befriended a the right person at the right time in their life. By the person and we shared a mutual friend. And I was time they start trying to get pregnant they are very really just there to help her, give her advice about sad to discover that their eggs are no longer doing what she was going through and she was trying to what they need to do and they have to deal with the get pregnant. And, at some point it became very tragedy and the loss of that. And then egg donation, clear that she really needed to think about making you know, to make peace with egg donation you kids with the option of an egg donor. And I knew have to mourn and deal with that tragedy. But I’d that I didn’t know who to send her to. I had say the majority of families would fall into the developed a sense of disappointment with the way category of women who just kind of waited too long. other practices were working and how people are screened. And I felt like I was willing to trust myself Mike: And you work with single women as well to go out and find her a donor and so I offered to do as couples? that. Judy: I work with single, married. We help gay So my only intention was to go find her a donor. families. We have single men who didn’t meet the And then what happened at that point was that after right woman in time. So, it’s an interesting mix. finding her a donor, my name was given out by Once in awhile we have women who come to us somebody who knew what I had done with two other who are very young, 20s, who have premature families and I started to get phone calls from private ovarian failure or some other issue that have made families. And by then I had screened multiple it impossible for them. It could be cancer that they donors. My friend only needed one. So, I was very had. But that’s really rare. happy to be able to help other families. And, it just happened. Yeah. I think the Jewish Blessing Mike: I didn’t know if you read in the news this happened. [Laughs] week that Facebook and Apple are offering the option for their employees to freeze their eggs. Did Mike: Now on the other side, the families— you read that article at all?

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Judy: I heard the news and I have to say that I Mike: There’s a lot of talking about older was actually really, really happy. I didn’t have a mothers and of course I’m an old dad, this is The chance to actually read the story. I understood there Old Dad podcast, do you have an upper limit age- was some controversy and some people did not react wise where you feel comfortable working with the way that I’m feeling, but I certainly think that women? Is there an age that perhaps you think might it’s wonderful that women are being given that be too old to have a child? option. I also think that it requires a huge amount of education because the danger in egg freezing is that Judy: You know, it’s a very tough question. I you can get a false sense of security. So, you could could tell you that every practice that I’m in touch be somebody who’s 33 years old and you’re like, with grapples with this issue. I could tell you that “Well, I’m not really ready to have a child now so the practice I worked in for eight years, it took us I’m going to freeze my eggs.” And then you think years to try to answer that question. And there really you’re good. You’ve frozen 20 eggs or 15 eggs and isn’t any answer to this one. I if you come up with you think you’re going to be okay. an upper limit of 50 then what happens when the woman who is 50 and two months walks in? You’re And the problem with egg freezing is it’s always going to be challenged in this area. I don’t wonderful, it’s like a little bit of an insurance policy have a number. If a family called me and they’re but it’s not a guarantee. So, I think that’s where the older than what I’m used to, I will usually advice danger is. The danger is that women can get a little that they try to find a doctor who’s willing to help bit too comfortable and think that they’re going to them before they talk to me about choosing a donor. be fine and maybe they’re not. And so they might— But it’s a tough one. It’s a really difficult issue. It If they’re not informed well, they might make the certainly presents lots of ethical challenges to people wrong decision for themselves. But for a woman who work in the field and to me as well. I would be who’s in her 30s and that she wants to get pregnant, lying if I didn’t say that it does at times challenge but she hasn’t met that guy or whatever her issue is, me. I think it’s fabulous. I would love to see every single company out there offering this. Mike: I’ve been writing a lot about the topic and there’s really not any studies on the subject. All Mike: That’s not a cheap service. What do you of the studies have to deal with the increase in think that would cost? medical risks for like children of older fathers— Judy: You know, I don’t want to quote prices Judy: Right. but I would imagine that it cost probably between $10,000 and $15,000 if I were guessing. And again Mike: It’s a whole new world and they just don’t I don’t really know the cost. It depends on the clinic know yet. as well. At the end of the day I think the calculation Judy: Well, increased medical risk because of is that if you don’t help a woman with that and you older fathers, increased medical risk for older end having to help her later because she’s having woman carrying a pregnancy. But I think that the fertility problems, you’re out much more money and bigger issue probably for most people is that I think that’s part of it, But, you know what, a woman anybody who’s going into this, who meets a family, who wants to have a baby is not going to be there’s a natural reflex of trying to do the math. And convinced to not have a baby because somebody I’m sure you went through this. You’re thinking offered her an egg freeze. I can tell you that. about it in your 50 and you start figuring out that Mike: Right. when the kid’s 10 you’re going to be 60 and when that child is starting college you’ll be 70. And I think Judy: As a woman I’m telling you that. [Laughs] that’s where a lot of the moral and ethical dilemmas If I want to have a baby today it’s not going to be start to come into the picture. because you offered this and let me freeze my eggs that I’m going to make a decision not to have one. Interview continues on page 23

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Selected FAQ’s for Recipient’s on A Jewish Blessing’s website AFTER WATCHING SO MANY FAMILIES GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS DO YOU HAVE ANY WISDOM TO SHARE ABOUT THE “CORRECT” WAY TO APPROACH THE SEARCH FOR FINDING MY DONOR?

Please know that there never will be only one correct way to approach this search. You are unique in your own right (thank God) and so it is important for you to carefully reflect on what will truly be best for you as you embark on this life altering journey. What is right for someone else does not mean it is right for you. More than anything I encourage you to approach this search with a massive amount of patience for yourself; again, this is, like everything else in life, a journey, likely not one that you have taken before. And so you can expect that it will elicit emotions that might surprise you, upset you, excite you, or create tension in your relationship…. Loving patience towards yourself (and towards your partner) is the gift you deserve. I have worked with families who have seemingly sailed through the process and found this choosing of a donor apparently easy. Others have taken a longer and much more painful road to the joy. What has been universal, though, for each and every family who has so generously shared this experience with me has been the joy of falling in love with their child, the one who was meant to come into their life. And so a few of the issues that you might want to carefully think through are the following….

HOW WILL I REALLY KNOW IF A DONOR IS THE RIGHT ONE? WHAT IF I CHOOSE THE WRONG ONE?

I have always been convinced that if you could simply listen to your heart then you would know who the right donor was; the issue at times, though, is how to clear all the rest of the static away so that you can “listen to your heart”. Even if you have decided to look at photos I am still a strong believer in the virtue of first reading through a donor’s profile. It will be much easier to know if she feels right on every other level…because, once viewed, the photos will likely make the listening much more of a challenge. I recently spoke about this to one of my families who said “yes, but whose heart should we listen to if we can’t agree”? I laughed. Great question; I have certainly seen this issue come up and as I mention it requires patience (and love) to come to a peaceful decision. I am here for you should you come to this crossroads without a solution. Please know that I am available to talk with you both if this comes up.

I am also convinced that, although the urge to read through every profile in one sitting may be there (after all, if you read through them all you might find her tonight), it is likely in your best interest to read just a few, then digest, and begin again once your heart and mind have had time to rest. Reading 10, 20, or 30 profiles in one sitting will undoubtedly leave your head spinning, confuse you, overwhelm you and make the candidates all blend into one in your mind. Even worse, you may feel so overwhelmed by the experience that you may stop your search rather than continue it, something that will ultimately delay your ability to move forward sooner rather than later.

I also believe that truly understanding that (in the very big picture) this is ultimately “out of our hands” is also an important, calming and very helpful step in helping to make the weight of the decision of who to choose feel less daunting. I have witnessed my families be led to their donors and would be very happy to share some of these miraculous stories with you if you’d like to hear more.

NOW THAT YOU HAVE ANSWERED ALL THESE FAQ’S DO YOU HAVE A FINAL MESSAGE TO ME? Once the time comes, please never forget that this child would not have been born had it not been for your hope and your passion to make this happen (and, of course, if not for those powers that exist way out of our reach). I wish you all the very best on your journey. Please know that I am here to support and to guide you in any way that you need. May you be blessed in every way you have hoped and prayed for. Most of all, I thank you for the honor of allowing me to help.

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Mike: Yeah. Everytime I read an obituary I do the math. It’s like alright, when my son was born I ...it’s a very tough question. I could tell was one month short of 51 so if I would die at 77 you that every practice that I’m in and I subtract the number and he’ll be 26. touch with grapples with this issue. I Judy: Right. could tell you that the practice I worked in for eight years, it took us years to Mike: And it’s really not helpful to think like that. try to answer that question. And there really isn’t any answer to this. If you Judy: It’s not. Then I think the parents who come to us do that as well . And the staff or the medical come up with an upper limit of 50 then professionals naturally as well share those concerns. what happens when the woman whois And again it’s not like there’s a magic number that, 50 and two months walks in?... you’re going to come up with that feels comfortable. But there are definitely families that will challenge the table a pool of genetic information. And it’s the the way you feel because they’re coming in at a reason in my three children, I have dark hair and much older age than you thought you would be dark eyes, their father have dark hair and dark eyes asked to help. That’s certainly happened to me. I and we ended up with two blonds and one has green would be lying if I said that I never feel challenged eyes. And, you know, I laugh about it. I always morally. scratch my head and try to figure out where that came from. And I know where they came from. Mike: You wrote beautifully on your website that the first thing most families do when looking But I can tell you that genetics are fascinating. for an egg donor do is look at the pictures. They You don’t really know what you’re getting, you can’t just go through like they’re flipping through CDs predict it. But it is helpful for family to look at at a used CD store and you wrote that’s probably their collective family coloring and heights and not a good thing to do. Can you expand upon that? things like that to see if a donor and her family fits rather than just ruling out that the donor isn’t good Judy: Yeah. I think that the industry has because she’s two inches shorter than they wanted. changed. It used to be that if you went to a clinic and they had an egg donor program, you never even Mike: I guess people try to recreate themselves saw pictures. And I have to tell you that in a lot of as close as they can and— ways it would be easier for families when they didn’t see the photos. They might have seen baby pictures. Judy: Yeah, and I will share with you that in the But, I think there’s a natural inclination to want to industry that I work in, there’s a certain inclination look at photos when they’re available. We’re all to use that desire to sell the product. In other words pretty visual, so you just want to look at the photo. there are some donor agencies where they have I think often that results in you ruling out somebody categories of look-alikes, you know, the Tom Cruise as being a decent candidate or not because “I don’t look-alike, as if your donor looks like Tom Cruise, have that hair color, she’s got a different eye color you are going to end up with a kid who looks like than me,” whatever those physical qualities are. Tom Cruise, which isn’t really true. But the reality is that genetics are fascinating Mike: Are you trying to tell me it doesn’t work and wonderful. And so there is this perception that that way? That’s a shock. the donor is bringing to the table just those qualities Judy: [Laughs] I think that it for me as a nurse, that she has. In other words, if you get a donor and I’m very passionate about patient education. I really she’s got brown eyes and blond hair and whatever, love to challenge my families to talk about what you think that’s exactly what your child is going to their families look like, because if you start that be getting. When that in fact is not the truth because conversation, if you say to somebody, “You know, we know what the donor is bringing to the table in do you have siblings?” I’ll give you an example, a the same way that the intended father is bringing to normal conversation is, “I’m looking for somebody

110 THE OLD DAD—Judy Weiss Podcast pg. 24 who’s 5’7" with this color of hair and that color of eyes.” And I might say to that person, “Tell me about your siblings? Do you look alike?” And very often they’re like, “No, we don’t look anything alike.” So, I try to point out to them they came from the same parents and that just because the donor looks like your twin sister and you might think that means you’re going to have a child that looks like you but the truth is that you need to understand that Judy: You know, emails through us and that’s not the case. I don’t like to perpetuate that sometimes a Skype call and sometimes it is a fantasy that if the donor looks like them, the child physical meeting but that can backfire as I’ve said. is coming out looking like them. You know, you can meet your donor and then the Mike: How much pre-decision interaction do next thing, you know, you don’t have a donor. you feel is needed? Do you feel comfortable with Mike: Recently I read studies dealing with the parents meeting the prospective donor? Are you telling the child the circumstances of their creation a fan of them talking? How does that work? and how it’s a problem for a lot of parents telling Judy: Well, I can tell you, I really believe that the kids that they came from an egg donor. Do you this is a very personal decision, but I think it requires have advice for families on how they should, when a lot of counseling. I often see families coming to they should tell or if they should tell? me with a certain desire or fantasy about meeting Judy: You’re right. That’s a complicated the donor. I think that when you engage a family question. I don’t have one specific piece of advice. like that in a dialogue, you often can bring issues to I think that what’s critical for every family is to the table that they never thought of and I’ll give truly spend the time and think about what’s going you an example of what often happens. I might have to be best for them and for their children. There are a family saying, “You know, we really want to meet a lot of people in the field that think there’s only our donor.” And I will say to them, “Okay, but you one right answer to that question. There are many understand that if you meet your donor, she also clinicians who say you must disclose the has the choice to say, I don’t really like this couple. information. I’m less in that group. I don’t think They’re not for me.” So, you’ve effectively opened that I have the right to tell you or another family Pandora’s box by having that meeting. what’s best for them. Also I’m always concerned when there’s an I think that it’s important for families to have a intended mom in the picture. I worry about people place that’s safe, where they can have that in the future, so I think that for an intended mom to conversation and if they’re not able to work it out have the closest relationship with her child, she together maybe they consult somebody who can doesn’t need the intrusion of that physical meeting help them. But I don’t have one right answer for with the donor. I think that when you see a photo, you. I have come to the conclusion that if it feels that’s one thing. But when you start to have much like a massively large secret because you decided more intimate contact with somebody, they become not to share it with your child and you’re burdened a much more present person in your life. And for a by that, then you probably need to talk the child mom to have a relationship with their child and not and let them know because that burden is just not have that intrude upon it, I think, and this is my worth it. And I think people make that decision. opinion, it’s preferable for her not necessarily to have an intimate contact and get together with the Mike: Now, once a baby is born using one of donor. We really encourage families to think about your donors, it doesn’t end for you. You continue all the different ways they can talk to a donor if to track both the donor and the newborn, right? they feel the need. Interview continues on page 26 Mike: Like, how...

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Selected FAQ’s for Egg Donor’s on A Jewish Blessing’s website WHY SHOULD AN EGG DONOR WORK WITH A JEWISH BLESSING? We at A Jewish Blessing are here to guide and support you through your entire donation experience and even before; we are deeply committed to helping, not only the Jewish families who come to us for help, but also to helping you make the best possible decision for yourself as you try to decide if this Mitzvah is one that feels right for you. We recognize that this is a very important and complex decision and encourage you to take all the time you need to carefully contemplate whether this is truly for you and to speak with us if you need guidance, information or our feedback as you try to make this decision. Again, our goal is only to help you make the best decision for you. Although the financial rewards can seem significant we strongly believe that this should never be the main factor that sways you to give this gift. Rather it should be given because this act of kindness and the fact that you have potentially changed a family’s life will be deeply meaningful to you as you move through your life. We strongly encourage you NOT to apply until you feel certain that your decision is the right one for you. A candidate who applies before she is really sure about her decision can ultimately bring incredible emotional devastation to a recipient family who has asked to be matched with her (if she suddenly has a change of heart once matched). Once you are matched with a recipient family the nurses at A Jewish Blessing will oversee, supervise and coordinate the process and we will be here for you every step of the way. You will never feel unsupported or alone as you move through this process with us. We are incredibly grateful that we are here to help Jewish recipient families all over the world. Our dedication and commitment to these families optimizes your opportunity to be selected by a family who you will feel really great about giving this gift to.

WHO CAN DONATE EGGS? - EGG DONOR REQUIREMENTS If you are a mature, responsible, healthy woman of proportionate height and weight (with a BMI under 30) who is between the ages of 20-32 and of Jewish ancestry (either maternal or paternal side or both) then you may be a good candidate for egg donation. If you have the desire to help out a family in this extraordinary way by doing this incredible Mitzvah (and have carefully considered the potential medical and psychological effects associated with egg donation) then please email us at to let us know that you would like to complete the application. The application will ask you to provide a detailed health history of your parents, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles and first cousins and we will send you some very helpful suggestions for completing the form. Upon receipt of your completed application your information will be reviewed in detail by a reproductive endocrinology nurse, a geneticist and a physi- cian and you will be contacted. Once matched with a family you will be further screened to determine if you are likely to be a good candidate (one who can produce enough healthy eggs for a successful donation cycle and whose cycle, ideally, results in a pregnancy for the family).

DO I HAVE TO TAKE ANY MEDICATION, AND DOES IT HAVE ANY SIDE EFFECTS? Initially you will be put on birth control pills or a vaginal contraceptive ring that works similarly to oral contraceptive in order to adjust your menstrual cycle and synchronize it with that of the recipient. Following this you will begin a combination of injectable hormone medications (using, mostly, very tiny needles) for approximately 2-3 weeks (depending on your physician’s choice of medication protocol). These hormones help the ovaries to produce a greater number of mature eggs than you would produce in a natural cycle and allow the doctor to harvest several eggs at once. You will not, however, “lose” more eggs than you would have lost in your natural cycle that month. You will simply produce a larger # of mature eggs rather than having them “go to waste”. Many prospective donor candidates worry most about this part of the process but we have found that the reaction of our donors once they begin their injections is “this is what I was worrying about????” I can’t believe how easy this is.” Of course, we expect you to balk at the thought of sticking yourself with needles; if you told us that you thought this was a great idea then we would have to worry about you! The nurses, both at A Jewish Blessing and at the center that will be caring for you, will make sure you feel totally comfortable with all your instructions before starting the process.

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Judy: We track everybody, yeah. States and you start doing calculations with it, with just everyone, Italian, Irish, whatever and you mix Mike: So you have been following people from it up, statistically you don’t have too great of risk. 15 years ago are— But, again you cannot translate these numbers to Judy: Yes. the Jewish community. Mike: That is so Mike: I take from our fascinating to me. conversation, is that you ...I will share with you that in the counsel “take your time” Judy: We are a little industry that I work in. there is a and it sounds like a lot of bit unique. I think if you certain kind of inclination to use that parents don’t. They have start to look at numbers that instinct to go faster. in general, they have desire to sell the product. In other Are you ever in conflict been mathematicians words there are some donor agencies with people looking for who sat around where they have categories of look- donors? calculating the statistical alikes, you know, the Tom Cruise look risk of children of Judy: I’m always donors and their alike, as if your donor looks like Tom happy if somebody finds intended parents Cruise you were going to end up with a donor very quickly. I meeting, the word is certainly understand the a kid who looks like Tom Cruise which dynamics emotionally. It consanguinity. There are isn’t really true... people who calculated is a very painful process those numbers, but the to go through. And I think second that I stepped into the Jewish community to often that rush is just a result of incredible panic do this work those number is no longer applied. that they’re never going to make it, won’t ever get there, they’re not going to have that baby. If I had a And, I have always been concerned about that crystal ball everybody would be calm. I said for because the Jewish community is so particularly tiny many years, I’ve been looking for my crystal ball. I and the Jewish community, it’s a tight community. just haven’t found it yet. But if we knew what the Many children go on Birthright trips and meet. It end of the story was, everybody would be calm. If doesn’t matter if you live in the same country or not you knew you were going to find your donor maybe or the same state. I’ve had this concern about those not tomorrow but next month or even next year, children and I think to know that our families and you would be calm if you knew you were going to the children have the ability to move forward without have your child. feeling terrified that their child is potentially dating a genetic sibling. So, I don’t necessarily have an opposition to someone doing it quickly. But I certainly think that Mike: I have a friend who used a sperm donor people have to work very hard to maintain a sense and gave birth to a girl. This particular sperm donor of calm when they’re feeling very heartbroken and has a website set up for his offspring. It turns out desperate. Also, I think when you’re very desperate my friend’s daughter has 33 half-brothers and half- and you feel like you might never have that child, sisters out there and to me that’s just mind boggling. you are more inclined to perhaps make not-so-great decisions when you’re choosing your donor. So, I Judy: Wow. It is mind boggling. I agree. like to try to help people stay calm. Mike: And that’s just the children on the website. Mike: Just to close, we got “the how” you came I don’t know if that means there are more. to this field. But, could you articulate “the why” you do this and what this means to you . I know Judy: Exactly. And, you know about all these that this is not an easy job and you have phone calls movies that come out on that topic. So, yeah and holding hands and matching families with hypothetically speaking, it’s possible and I think if donors. You’ve got to have a passion. What do you you take the general population in the entire United get from this?

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Judy: I think in my case, I’ve developed an over 150 babies born so far in the last 10 years. incredibly spiritual outlook on the work that I do And that doesn’t count my families who I helped because I didn’t exactly choose it, it was something before when I was at the clinic. I mean, my oldest that happened in my life by a series of events. And children are now about 15 I think. Just wild, you because it happened in my life, know, it’s great. There’s because of this series of events, something really special to be able it feels very much like a gift that to bring that kind of joy in I was given. And you feel that people’s lives. you’ve been given the gift of being able to help families bring Mike: Yes there is. Well, all this kind of joy into their lives, of us here at the Old Dad podcast I mean, it’s an honor. It’s an thank you on many, many levels. honor. I have the sense often Judy: Oh, thanks. that I’m simply the messenger. Mike: This was a fascinating But I’m honored to have conversation. I learned so much been chosen to be that and I’m sure a lot of people will messenger. Again I didn’t sit feel the same way. And I down and say, “Let me write up encourage poeple to visit a business plan. I’m going to AJewishBlessing.com even if start a new company and I’m they’re not looking to get a donor, going to call it A Jewish there’s so much great information Blessing and I want to do this.” there that everyone should visit. That was never on my plan— and. if anything, it was the last Judy: Thank you so much for thing I wanted to do. I’m not a the opportunity Mike. It’s been a business person. I work great in pleasure speaking to you. teams. I had no desire to be self- employed. So, if anything I was resistant to the idea. But it’s been amazing. I can tell you that we’ve had

A late question for Judy: What one change would you like to see in the industry? If I could see one change made in this industry it would be to see a higher standard of practice applied to the pre-screening of donor candidates. I have seen, over the past 16 years, way too many donor candidates who were accepted into programs and matched with families with virtually no genetic/medical family history available to the recipient families. Though there is no "fool proof" method for obtaining 100% of the relevant information I would be relieved to see better pre- screening practices at clinics and agencies alike. I have found that because families searching for donors are so overwhelmed by the process and often by the emotional issues they are coping with (loss and grief) that their focus is only on finding their donor and having their baby; often even the most educated families fail to recognize a poorly pre-screened candidate. The fall out is that they can end up choosing a donor whose collective family history may not have been acceptable to them had they known it.

114 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 28 KATHLEEN DENNEHY Kathleen Dennehy is a writer/ performer. A long time member of Naked Angels Theater Company in New York, she has performed as an actor on Broadway, at Lincoln Center, The Goodman Theater, Actors Theater of Louisville, her writing in NYC and Los Angeles. Her stories have been published in Note To Self, The Los Angeles Times, Fresh Yarn and Weston Magazine. She is the drama editor of Connotation Press, an online literary journal. She has performed her stories at Sit N’ Spin, Tuesdays@9LA/NYC, & Book Soup in LA. She has written for Disney, Universal Studios, and The E! Channel. While in the foster-to-adopt system she started a blog, How To Be An Old Mom and is currently building a website, This Old Mom. Currently she is working on a fictional memoir about domestic adoption, entitled Accidentally On Purpose. She lives in Echo Park with her husband, toddler and numerous pets. In fact, she probably has poop on her fingers at this moment.

Mike: So it seems like a natural fit for the Old Dad to interview the Old Mom, and that’s who we are going to talk to right now. Today’s guest is Kathleen Dennehy, a.k.a., “The Old Mom.” For the past couple of years, Kathleen has her own blog which chronicles her story of how she became a mother at the age of 49, and what it’s like to be an old mom. We love the website and we read every wordof it, and we are so happy she is joining us today. So, Kathleen, tell us a little bit about your story and your journey. Kathleen: OK. So I’m Kathleen and I met my husband at the ripe old age of 45. The good news was we discovered pretty quickly that we wanted very much to be parents. And we tried the good old fashioned way, but by then it was just too late. It was kind of painful, because I had friends who were 46 and 47 and were having babies by accident, which kind of rubbed it in a little bit. But when we saw that the window had shut, we both pretty much agreed together, without too much hesitation, that we would look to foster or foster to adopt. We were very clear that it was about having a child more than it was about anything else We didn’t have the resources, i.e. the money, to do fertility. It’s a pricey proposition. I have worked for years with foster children in Pasadena at a school/home for children who have been removed from their homes, children who’ve been adopted and given back to the system, foster kids who had escaped bad foster situations. And based on my experience with these teenagers I knew, I wanted to adopt one of them. But my husband was kind of hoping that we could start with a baby. And

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I think his instinct was right. Also, a bunch of my We sent in all our paperwork last year.” And he’d friends talked me out of it. They said, you known say, “Oh, we never got this, and we never got that.” your husband for like a minute, perhaps a self- Or, “Oh, we can’t find it.” So they were just losing harming teenager is not the way to go. paperwork. It was painful. It was painful because we invested so much time So we tried for two and so much effort and all years, we trained, we did ...And so we tried for two years, we our money into it. We got all the paperwork. But fingerprinted more times the system is so broken trained, we did all the paperwork. But the system is so broken here and so than Lindsey Lohan. It and so bureaucratic in was incredible how much California and woefully bureaucratic in California and we did to no avail. underfunded, that we underfunded, woefully underfunded, couldn’t even get a Mike: It’s almost social worker to our that we couldn’t even get a social comical if it wasn’t house. They kept losing worker to our house. ... dealing with the lives of our paperwork and little kids. fingerprints, and it was incredibly frustrating. So basically from age 46 to Kathleen: Exactly. And what’s really tragic about 48, I had a nursery, I had a bed, I mean, the bed was California and the foster system is that there’s some made, the crib was in the room, and we just waited. twenty or thirty thousand children in the foster It was pretty sad. system and there’s only like six hundred foster families. So you’d think we would be a relationship Mike: Were you surprised about it being that they would nurture, especially a couple who have broken? Did you have any expectations? a nice home and an extra room. I mean, we just figured we were the straight-A students, you know? Kathleen: Well, we did not, because we had We’re college educated, we’re very stable, we just friends, who were sort of our sponsors in the foster thought we were slam dunk. And for nothing to system, and what happened was when they happen was the last thing we expected. We probably recommended that we go to this one agency in could have been a little bit more forceful and called particular, they had a…the foster system is full of them every month and said “Now what?” We just heartbreak stories and fairytales...they had had a didn’t know that we had to do that. And so hindsight heartbreak where they had a baby for a week, a being 20/20, well, basically, in this case the newborn, who was born addicted to methadone, and hindsight is that it worked out exactly perfectly, they had to give him up after a week. After a week because we found our child and she found us. he was taken away from them, and they were just devastated. Mike: So now it’s been two years… But then, two years later, they were given an 18- Kathleen: So what happened next was ironically month-old little girl who is now their daughter, and the foster agency called us as we were traveling to she’s now 7. And it’s just an incredible story, and Canada to get married. And they were like, “OK, they’re a beautiful family. And so they gave us a lot we finally are ready to get you situated.” And I said, of hope. I called them our foster sponsors. And they Well, I’m actually about to step on a plane to go to talked us through everything and what to expect, my wedding.” And they were like, you call us as and they told us where to go. But in the ensuing soon as you get home and we’ll set the whole thing years, between their situation and ours, that agency up. We’ll get started. And this is literally two years had budget cuts and the social workers given double later. So we get married, and we come back, and workloads, we just got lost in the shuffle. To add we call the agency, and they never call us back. insult to injury, the president of the agency would And then we got a card in the mail from Andrew, call us and say, “You know, what happened to you my husband’s brother, who lives in Seattle, and his two? We’ve thought you were so motivated.” And I brother basically said the only wedding gift we would say, “We’ve been waiting for you to call us. could think of giving you is a blank check so that

116 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 30 you can become a family. Stop waiting around, take this and get yourself a kid. And it was huge, because domestic adoption is pretty expensive. That’s why we were in the foster system. And I knew right away that that was all the money we needed. We just had to do that, as I have a lot of adopted members of my own family, so I knew exactly who to call. And Andrew was like, wait a minute, I don’t want to give up on the foster system. And I said, the foster system gave up on us. At this point I was 48, and I said I have no more time to waste. So you just have to figure out when you’re on board with this. Kathleen and her daughter, Clementine Mike: Do you think your age had anything to do than I already have, but I did see people from week with it? to week who I was very worried about. They seemed like damaged people. And then they would just Kathleen: No, it really didn’t, because there were disappear. They wouldn’t come back to classes. And other people in the training who were much older. the director of the program would say, just as you’re There were grandparents there. You know, because studying to become foster parents, we’re making you get paid from the state to take in children, you sure that you’re here for the right reasons and that could almost tell from week to week the people who you want to be a foster parent for the right reasons. were just looking for a check. You get to know And yet, they let us slip through the cracks people, because you’re studying with them for hours completely. And my friends who sponsored were every week for a month. And there was one couple, so apologetic. They were so sorry that happened to they were probably in their 60’s, they had us. But to be honest with you, California stresses grandchildren, but one of their sons had been reunification almost to an unappreciable degree. murdered. And it was this huge hole in their lives. Kids are given back to their parents and then They were both retired schoolteachers and really murdered. New York does not have this in their wanted to give back. I remember them distinctly. foster to adopt system at all. They stress whatever They kind of broke my heart. And then there were is in the best interests of the child. A good friend of a couple of women who were tired of waiting for a mine was given an 8-month-old who had been born husband and they just wanted to be a parent, by addicted to meth. And she took care of this child any means necessary, so they were doing it alone. from six months, yeah, she had her about six And then there were couples who were younger and months. Last week they gave her a few days’ notice older. But no, when you’re in the foster system, they that they were taking the baby away and they gave don’t care how old you are. I knew a girl who went the baby to a great aunt who barely knew the child. to a woman in her 80’s who was a foster mother. And that is the foster system in California. I mean, to take this child away from the only woman who Mike: Wow. had been a constant in her life, who was sick when Kathleen: I don’t know how well vetted they are. she was given to my friend and to have her taken I don’t want to insult the foster system any more Interview continues on page 33

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How You Can Prepare for a Transracial or Transcultural Adoption (from Child Welfare Infomation Gateway) Preparation for adoption is important for anyone thinking about adopting a child. It is even more important for parents considering transracial or transcultural adoption because it will introduce you to all aspects of adoptive parenthood, help you learn about adoption issues, and help you identify the type of child you wish to parent. Any adoption agency that conducts and supervises transracial or transcultural adoptions should provide this important service. If you are undertaking an independent adoption, you should seek counseling and training in these areas. You should also read as many articles and books as you can on the subject. The following sections describe some issues to consider as you prepare for a transracial or transcultural adoption. Examine Your Beliefs and Attitudes About Race and Ethnicity While you may think you know yourself and your family members very well, it is important to examine your beliefs and attitudes about race and ethnicity before adopting a child of another race or culture. Try to think if you have made any assumptions about people because of their race or ethnic group. There are two reasons for this exercise: (1) to check yourself -- to be sure this type of adoption will be right for you; and (2) to prepare to be considered "different." When you adopt a child of another race or culture, it is not only the child who is different. Your family becomes a "different" family. Some people are comfortable with difference. To them, difference is interesting, wonderful, and special. Other people are not so comfortable with difference, and are scared by it. Thus, some friends, family members, acquaintances, and even strangers will rush to your side to support you, while others may make negative comments and stare. During the pre-adoption phase, you should think about how you will respond to the second group in a way that will help your child feel good about himself or herself. (We'll give you some ideas a little later.) When your child is young, an extra hug and a heart-to-heart talk might be all it takes to help him or her through a difficult situation. While the hugs and the heart-to-heart talks never stop, as your child gets older, you and your child will need more specific coping skills to deal with the racial bias you might face together as a family. Are you ready to fully understand these issues and help your family deal with whatever happens? Think About Your Lifestyle Before considering a transracial or transcultural adoption, take a look at your current lifestyle. Do you already live in an integrated neighborhood, so that your child will be able to attend an integrated school? If not, would you consider moving to a new neighborhood? Do you already have friends of different races and ethnic groups? Do you visit one another's homes regularly? Do you attend multicultural festivals? Do you enjoy different kinds of ethnic foods? How much of a leap would it be to start doing some of these things? It is important for children of color growing up with Caucasian parents to be around adults and children of many ethnic groups, and particularly, to see adult role models who are of the same race or ethnic group. These people can be their friends, teach them about their ethnic heritage, and as they mature, tell them what to expect when they are an adult in your community. Can you make these types of relationships available for your child? Consider Adopting Siblings It is always good for siblings to be adopted together. It is no different in the case of transracial or transcultural adoption. Siblings who are adopted together have the security of seeing another person in the family who looks like them. They are able to bring a part of their early history and birth family with them to their adoptive family, which may help them adjust better. And with internationally adopted children, being together might mean they will be able to keep up their native language. Let's say, then, that you have examined your beliefs and attitudes about race and ethnicity. You have thought about your lifestyle and considered adopting siblings. You are sure you want to adopt a child from another race or culture. What comes next?

118 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 32 away and just given to a woman who is a total Mike: Wow. So you found your lawyer. stranger. Now this child is now just going to have to reattach herself, if she’s lucky, there’s something Kathleen: Yeah, we found a lawyer in Los so inhumane about that to me. You find a person Angeles. I asked about other lawyers, but almost who is a good, loving, supportive person, even the all of my friends who had wonderful adoptions and social worker said to my friend the baby had never great adoption stories, my friend Suzanne Krull, who seemed healthier, she unfortunately passed away never seemed more last year. She was another loved, she’s so well ...And so we tried for two years, we one. She adopted her daughter. She was 40. I fed, she started trained, we did all the paperwork. But walking, she started don’t know, I think that an talking. And then they the system is so broken here and so old parent technically starts just came a week later bureaucratic in California and around 45. I consider and took her away and underfunded, woefully underfunded, Suzanne instrumental in us becoming parents, because gave her to a stranger. that we couldn’t even get a social And so in a way I feel it was really hard. Just the gift that we got was worker to our house. ... because you start writing to not have to subject checks does not make the ourselves to that. And adoption process easy. to be honest, I’m still working with foster kids and Mike: Even with a good lawyer there can be some I’ve started trying to soften my husband up for going issues. How did the whole process go for you? I back into the system. And he thinks I’m crazy. know that it didn’t happen right away. Mike: I’m not going to chime in on that topic. Kathleen: No, and when it happened, it happened That’s a tough two-year lesson to learn, but I guess super fast, because our birth mother picked us when it set you up for your next step. she was eight months pregnant. We literally found Kathleen: Yeah, it set me up, and it really out and had a month to prepare for becoming sharpened our focus. We knew we’d get a newborn, parents. But it was crazy because we were evicted which was what we were hoping for in the foster from our house two weeks before our birth mother system. And that may have retarded our process, picked us. So we were scrambling to find a home. because it’s rare that you get a newborn. Women Our social worker was incredibly understanding and do walk out of hospitals without kids in California, supportive. She did not tell the agency. If she had but usually you get like a toddler or older. So within told them that we had lost our house, through no a month of receiving the check, I reached out to the fault of our own, our landlord was basically kicking adoption attorney our friends used and that my us out because her daughter wanted to move in there. father and his second wife used when they became But if our social worker had told the lawyer and the the parents of my baby brother and baby sister. Yes, agency that she worked for that we were searching I’m 52 and I have a 22-year-old brother and a 19- for a home while finishing our paperwork, they year-old sister. Because my dad was the original probably would have stopped. Old Dad. He became a dad the second time around Mike: So the nursery you spent all that time on. 54. Something like that. Kathleen: I know. My child never got to sleep in Mike: Wow, he beat me by two years. the nursery in that house. And in fact, we didn’t Kathleen: And now he is our biggest champion have enough time to find a proper house, so we had and just worships our daughter, which is pretty to move into my sister’s guest house, which was awesome. I also have an adopted stepsister. My basically a studio, a reconverted garage. Nicely mother married a guy who had three children reconverted, you know, bath and kitchen, but one biologically and an adopted daughter from Vietnam. room. And we lived there for five months with a So I have a lot of adopted, and I also have a cousin newborn. But I got to say it was great, having my who’s adopted in the Korean baby lift. sister screaming distance away, because you know,

119 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 33 little babies are scary. And she had two boys that she raised, so she just was the calm voice of reason. ...And he said no, I strongly urge you She saw us through those scary moments in the not to lie...If you lie to them and they first five months, when you think it’s colic or corroborate that, then that’s not a great malnutrition and it’s just gas. way to start a relationship. But as Mike: That happens on a daily basis, it’s good anyone who’s ever started a to have an expert. I know in these situation, though, relationship knows, it’s all about lying. your age did come into play. I don’t mean romantic relationship, Kathleen: Oh, yeah. And it’s funny, because every kind of relationship. You hide when we first went to the lawyer, it’s so interesting, your issues, you hide the things that because they sort of tell you what to do and what not to do. When he asked, “How old are you,” I you think might be a deal breaker early said “I’m 48,” and he goes, “oh, wow, I would have on, in the hopes that the person will thought you were maybe 40.” And I asked if I become so attached to you that they should said that? And he said “No, I strongly urge won’t mind when they finally see how you not to lie. They will get your medical records, they will see your age. They will get a sheet of crazy you really are... paper with your home study, and it’ll have all your facts. If you lie to them and they corroborate that, is ludicrous. I’m proud of the fact that I sought help then that’s not a great way to start a relationship.” when I was depressed or anxious or having panic But as anyone who’s ever started a relationship attacks because of I was in New York on September knows, it’s all about lying. I don’t mean romantic 11th and losing neighbors. I said I don’t think there’s relationship, every kind of relationship. You hide anything wrong with that. And he said I don’t either, your issues, you hide the things that you think might but it might make some of these girls uncomfortable. be a deal breaker early on, in the hopes that the Some of them are Christian and they don’t believe person will become so attached to you that they in it. Some of them just don’t run in that kind of won’t mind when they finally see how crazy you milieu, they don’t understand it. And so they think really are. And at first I was very hell bent on being oh, this person’s crazy. And I’m like, I think people honest. And I was honest about the fact that I had who haven’t been in therapy are crazy. So it was sought therapy. My having sought therapy twelve like, damned if you do and damned if you don’t. So years before the adoption was more of an issue than you’re supposed to lie about that. Basically, he was my age, believe it or not. saying, you don’t have to advertise that, but you’re supposed to tell the truth about your age. Mike: Since a lot of therapists will be listening to that and I’m am training to become a therapist, And after five birth mothers rejected me, I could I’m curious what was their reasoning behind that. literally hear...the phone didn’t hang up the minute I told them I was 48. But I could hear them hang up Kathleen: OK. When the lawyer, I mean, I’ve on me, emotionally. They’re like ohhh, OK, alright. never seen a lawyer lose the color in his face faster. And then I would call the lawyer a couple days later. We might as well have told him that we’d just come I would say, I’m 48, but I’m a young 48, I’m a vital back from a violent killing spree. And he looked at 48. You have to see me. You got to see me in my Andrew, and he said, have you been in therapy, skinny jeans. You can’t say that, really. But I would too? And Andrew was like, I looked at him and I say, just look at the photos of us, just please let me was like, who hasn’t been in therapy in Los send you an album. And girls would be like, OK, if Angeles? And he said a lot of these girls, they’re you want. And so I would send them these pictures, not from Los Angeles, they’re from all over the and I didn’t doctor the pictures. I’m a very fit and country, and they’re young, and they’re not from active and curious and hungry 52-year-old, who communities where people are proud about seeking nobody believes when I say that I’m that age. And mental help. And I was like, this is just crazy, this I’d send them the albums and then I’d never hear

120 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 34 from them again. And it was like man, if you’ve Mike: How many kids did she have? ever been rejected, there’s nothing like being rejected by an 18-year-old pregnant girl in Idaho. Kathleen: Clementine was her third. She had her son when she was 15, and then she had her daughter Mike: I’ve been rejected by many 18-year-old when she was 18. She had Clemmy when she was girls, none of them pregnant. I know that feeling. 21and she just had another. She wanted to have her tubes tied after Clem, and her mom said, you’re 21 Kathleen: Yes, it hurts, it hurts. years old, you could meet a wonderful man. And Mike: It hurts bad. then she texted me earlier this year to tell me she was Kathleen: When I pregnant again, and she called the lawyer and I’d was ready to terminate. I say, so what happened told her I would support with this girl? What her in whatever she wanted happened with that girl? to do. I said that I’d be I was more proactive, and happy to adopt her child if this is how I should have it came to that. But I would been with the foster support her if she wanted agency, and he said, oh, to terminate. She’s been they went with a gay struggling with work and couple. And the gay struggling with making couple thing was really ends meet, and her mom interesting, because when moved in with her when my dad and his wife were she lost her job. And at one adopting, they got picked point she had five people right out of the bag. My living in her one-bedroom stepmom was easily 40- apartment, with her and something, and this was her kids. She didn’t 22 years ago, they didn’t terminate. She said she have to compete with gay was too scared. And she couples, because it was kept him, and he’s a not commonplace. When beautiful baby. And she I asked the lawyer, why sends me pictures all the am I losing so many birth mothers to gay couples, time. I’m kind of like her other mother, we’re very he said if it’s two gay men, the birth mother will close. always be the only mother that child will ever have. They see the adoptive mother as competition. Mike: Was there a choice in your relationship You’re replacing them. But if it’s two gay men, with the birth mother? they’re the only mother that child will ever have. Kathleen: Yes, yes. Oh, I was hopping all over Mike: I never put that together. the place, but yeah, it was. She’s a very, very shy, quiet girl. College graduate, her mother’s a college Kathleen: Yeah. When single mom wannabees graduate. They sound like a stereotype, when I say call me and say I really want to adopt, I’d say it’s those facts that I just said, people are like, why do going to be so much harder for you than it was for these people keep having babies? And it just drives me, even though you’re ten years younger than me, me crazy, because I’m like, she is not “these” because these girls want their kids to have a father. people. She is my birth mother, she is my hero. She In fact, the most poignant thing that our birth mother changed my life. I will not stand for anybody to said to me was well, at least one of my kids will say anything bad about her. I will defend her to the have a dad, even if it means giving her away. And death, because what she did is the bravest thing that stuck with me. I’ve ever witnessed another human being do. And

121 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 35 she is my hero, plain and simple. Nobody can put this deep connecting. Every night we’d tell each her down to me. So her initial feeling was she was other stories about who we were, all via text. Then mortified by the whole thing. She wanted to have a I would hand the phone to Andrew, so he could closed adoption. She didn’t want to meet us. We read, so he could feel involved too. But it was talked on the phone. The way it’s all laid out is just definitely about the women. so bizarre. You get a phone call, “We have a birth mother, she’s this age, Mike: From the stories she lives here, she’s I’ve heard from people having a girl or boy. ...I felt strongly that, at first I was very who’ve adopted, that Give her a call.” And hell bent on being honest. And I was seems like a very unusual you have to call this honest about the fact that I had sought relationship. stranger and try to spark therapy. My having sought therapy Kathleen: I guess so. I a connection. And twelve years before my adoption was hope it’s not, well, I’m somehow, after all the not going to name names, other birth mothers, she more of an issue than my age, believe I have friends who I think and I just totally it or not. . ... are pretty close with their sparked. There was birth mother. But they something, we just had had a different situation. a connection. And we talked for probably two hours She picked them. Most birth mothers pick the that first time. And at the end of the conversation, adoptive family in the fourth or fifth or sixth month she said, I think you’re the one. And she did ask me at the very latest. Then you fly the birth mother out my age at the very end of the conversation, and I and get to meet her, you take her to all your doctors said I’m forty… and it was like my brain just and make sure everything checks out OK, and then stopped. And she cut me off, and said oh, that’s they come out in like the eighth month and you put how old my mom is. And she didn’t care. And she them up in an apartment or a hotel and you see goes, in fact I want you to talk to my mom, because them all the time. Meals, going to Universal Studios she’s really the one who’s helping me do all this. and Disneyland, and that sounded like hell to me. She said, I don’t want to meet you, I don’t even My husband and I both work. We are hard working, want you guys to come to the hospital. Actually, self-employed people, and we had the means, she didn’t say it, her mother did. She was too shy. because it was someone else’s means, it just would Her mom said, she doesn’t want to see you, she have been incredibly hard. And I’m a writer, this doesn’t ever want to see you guys. She wants you conversation notwithstanding, and I am a talker, to come to the hospital after she’s gone and pick up I’m a loner. I’m a loner with a child and a husband the baby then. And I said OK, but can I please send and three pets. It would have just been really hard a photo album anyway? Because I had made these for me. But when the lawyer called us, he was like beautiful handmade photo albums. And they said she’s having a baby a month from tomorrow. She OK, and I sent her our pictures and from that literally picked us January 6 and the baby was born moment on, my birth mother just texted me from February 8th. So we didn’t even have time to fly then on. Typical 21-year-old, she did not use phones her out. She was too far in her pregnancy. except for texting. And she texted me after she got our photo album and she said, “I want it to be open, Mike: When we talked in the summer I was is that OK? Because I looked at your faces and I struck by the fact that the presentation you made want to know you two. And I feel like this will be for the mothers couldn’t be too slick. OK for me.” And I was so happy. It was like we finally found the person who got who we were, who Kathleen: It was so funny, because some we are. And we spent the month before the baby adoption attorneys get you to make a whole bunch was born just falling in love with each other. Long of photo albums, and then they send them to the texts about what did you do today, and telling each birth mothers, and then the birth mothers pick who other about our childhoods, and her mother was they’re interested in based on the photo albums, texting me too, and the three of us would just have and then they talk to you. Which I think is an

122 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 36 interesting way of doing it, probably a little bit more of an ice breaker. But our adoption attorney, he ...our adoption attorney, he wanted us wanted us to talk to the birth mother and then say, to talk to the birth mother and then say, can I send you pictures? And I’d be like, great, can I send you pictures? And I’d be because I used to go to art school and am very artistic, and was like, I’ll make it on a Mac and I’ll like, oh great, because I amvery make it all slick and beautiful, because that’s what I artistic, and was like, I’ll make it on a do. And he said uh uh, get the glitter, get the glue Mac and I’ll make it all slick and stick. You’re getting construction paper. They don’t beautiful, because that’s what I do. And want to see a book that looks like it was made by a publishing house, that’s not real to them. These girls he said uh uh, get the glitter, get the want to see fingerprints with glitter on them. They glue stick. You’re getting construction want to see your reality, as real as possible. And it paper. They don’t want to see a book was interesting. I went back to the arts and crafts that looks like it was made by a time in my life, and I liked it. I have to say there was something very remedial and pure about it. I publishing house, that’s not real to got interested in using different shaped scissors, I them. These girls want to see became like a kindergarten teacher. And I liked fingerprints with glitter on them. They scalloped edges and I’m a maniac with a glue stick. want to see your reality, as real as Mike: It sounds like it hit home and did what it possible... was supposed to do. Kathleen: Well, I made seven and I was rejected when all the other adoptive mothers will be calling the first six times. my birth mother was my seventh. this girl, they get so confused, and they’re And it was very bizarre. Suzanne gave me invaluable inundated, and they’re at a very, very vulnerable advice. Because what happens is, and this is one of time in their life. She said wait, just wait until all the first things that I asked our adoption lawyer, I the other moms call, and then call. And it was said, when you call this birth mother, how many incredible, because she gave me that advice right other people are calling her at the same time? I just before talking to our last birth mother. And the wanted to know like what the race course was going funny thing was, I was ready to give up. Just the to look like. How many horses were running in this night before, I was looking up Indian fertility clinics race? And he said, well, at any given time, there’ll in Mumbai, because I was just like done. We were be like six or seven adoptive couples who are also just going to take Andrew’s sperm, go to India, pick given that person’s information. She will usually an egg donor out of a catalog, and then a surrogate, pick out of that pool, unless something goes terribly and it’s very cheap. Did you know about Indian awry and she wants to wait. Sometimes the whole fertility clinics? process makes her change her mind, which happens. Mike: I do not,. Girls talk to a bunch of adoptive parents and then they just kind of walk away from the whole thing. Kathleen: Oh, $25,000, it sounds like I’m talking Suzanne and her husband were actually gypped by about a time share, my friends, a gay couple, Steven one couple who totally faked. They had a fake and Steven, a rabbi and a cantor, they went to sonogram and they were complaining about the roof Mumbai and they have an incredible 4-year-old leaking and she was sending them money and there little girl who is just the most beautiful thing you was no baby. It was a total scam. ever saw in your life. And they did it all for $25,000. But what Suzanne said was, when the lawyer calls Mike: I’m going to look into that topic. you in the morning, it’s always in the morning, it’s like Mission Impossible, there’s a mother, she’s in Kathleen: It’s the Rotunda Fertility Clinic. Our Idaho, she’s this, she’s that, and then call her right adoption, domestic, the whole thing from the minute away. And Suzanne said, don’t call right away. That’s they signed the first check to when we came home with Clem when she was 9 days old, was $44,000.

123 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 37

Mike: It’s not cheap, is it? then I just decided to let it be what it was and let us play out who we were. Kathleen: No. But I call it intentional parenting. Because you have to be as intentional. It’s the same We got to Ohio on a Monday and we met her, thing with fertility. You have to intend with every her mom, and her two children at a Red Lobster in fiber of your being to make this happen. Akron. And then we spent the whole day in the hospital with her mom and I saw her a couple of Mike: Actually, that’s the name of the center I’m times in the hospital. She gave me a bag of clothes hoping to open once I get licensed, the Center for for the baby after the baby was born, which still to Intentional Parenting, because that’s the way I feel. this day makes me well up, because I just can’t You are intentional on many different levels. imagine what it’s like to shop for a baby that you’ll Kathleen: Yeah, on every level. Yeah, you never have. And I don’t know what it must have choose. You choose, but you also have to determine. taken for her to walk out of that hospital empty- It’s like determined, intentional parenting, because handed the day after giving birth, but she was it takes an enormous amount of determination. In determined to be home for her son’s fifth birthday, fact, I think it changed me. I’ve become much more that was her determination. I think if you have a of a determined individual since making this happen fixed, determinate goal, you can go through for myself. And back to the age thing, because anything to get to that goal. I feel like that’s what there’s a part of me that feels a little dastardly about happened with us, and that’s what happened with not being really honest with my birth mother about her. my age. I call her my birth mother, which confuses The other thing about why it was so expensive is a lot of people. But she basically gave birth to my when you get an adoption attorney, you have to have motherhood. She made me a mom. I knew that she an adoption agency in California where you reside, was going to see my medical records, and part of and then you have to hire another adoption agency me said well, I’ll just say she cut me off, she where the birth mother resides. So we then had to interrupted me and I was about to say the second complete paperwork for California, and Ohio had number. But the way she asked me, it was almost their different set of laws. When Ohio found out an afterthought. And by the time she saw my photos, that I had been in therapy, they insisted, this is like she knew who I was. And there were a couple of ten days before the baby was born, they wanted my times when I thought, I’m going to just tell her. And former therapist of twelve years prior, to write a

Gay Adoptions Statistics Kathleen reported that the steepest competition in the adoption process comes from gay couple. Here are the latest stats on gay adoption as well as gay adoption state laws. On the 2000 Census, about 65,000 children lived with same sex parents. In 2012, 110,000 live with gay parents, over a 100% increase. Of the total amount of children in U.S. households, less than 1% live with same-sex parents. Therefore, children with same-sex parents are still far and away a minority. Here’s some charts I’ve compiled based on the latest data from the 2010 Census. Households with Children in the United States Marriage opposite-sex Unmarried opposite-sex Same-sex couples couples couples Households with Children 22,872,151 2,267,016 94,627 Biological Only 90.80% 88% 72.80% Step only or adopted only 4.40% 5.20% 21.20% Combination 4.80% 6.80% 6%

124 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 38 letter stating that I was of sound mind and mental Mike: Clementine is an African American baby, fitness to be a parent. I called my former therapist and you and your husband are white, and I think and found out she was on a cruise ship on the Nile you called it transracial adoption. Is that the term in Egypt. I hunted her that? down, she had a therapist Kathleen: That’s what on call who was really ...I call it intentional parenting. like very unhelpful on the they call it. Because you have to be as intentional, phone until I was Mike: And what are practically screaming at I mean, it’s the same thing with fertility. your experiences with her. “You have to just call You have to intend with every fiber of that? her, email her, and she your being to make this happen... needs to get in touch with Kathleen: Well, the me.” And I finally adoption agency in tracked her down on her California mandated it, cruise ship. And she was such a champ, she this was before we were even picked. It’s also, FedEx’ed a letter to Ohio, it got there in time, from there’s so many weird things about adoption, like a cruise ship in Egypt, stating that I was a fit parent. we had to come up with a name before we knew that we were legally going to get her. I kept saying, Mike: I should say that I’ve learned a lot in this why are you making us give you a name? This is so conversation but to me the headline that I have to heartbreaking, because what if we name her and then explore more is that someone going to therapy is we don’t get her? And they were like, we have to such a negative in the state of Ohio that you almost have a name. We have to have a name for the didn’t get a child, that’s crazy. paperwork. I found that so ass backwards. Anyway, Kathleen: And you’d think that social workers so that’s my rant. Transracial parenting workshop would be like, yeah, get some counseling. But I will was mandatory, unless you specified with your say that the hospital in Akron was, they were great. attorney at the outset I just want a white baby, if They gave us our own room, we were right around you’re white. If you were open, you had to take this the corner from the birth mother, so she had her workshop. And this workshop was, it was literally privacy and we had a bonding room where we spent like, do you know what Silent Scream is? Have you every spare second for three days with Clementine. ever heard of the play, Silent Scream? And when the birth mother wanted to see her and Mike: No. asked to spend the night she gave birth...that was our labor. My mother turned to me and said this is Kathleen: Oh, well. OK, Silent Scream was the your labor now. She spent the first night with the documentary that they started showing, it’s an anti- birth mother and I thought, there’s no way this girl’s abortion documentary that I saw when I was like in going to let this child go with us. We were sixth grade. And that was sex education in Catholic heartbroken, there was nothing we could do. But in all-girls school. It was like basically an anti-abortion the morning, she got up, she got dressed, and she propaganda movie to terrorize young girls into not left. letting boys touch them. And I considered transracial parenting workshop the adoption equivalent of And then she had the three days, so it just went Silent Scream. They show you a documentary with on, and she texted me a lot. She was in agony. It all these mixed race or different race kids who are was brutal for her. She had no idea she was going adopted by white people, ranting and raving about to feel the way she felt. And that was probably the how, every mistake that the adoptive parents made. most intense relationship I’ve ever had by text in Like the Native American girl coming home and my entire life. And I hope I never have another one. saying, “Ma, I’m not white and you’re white. I’m Although when Clementine’s a teenager, it’s brown.” And the mother going, “Oh no, I’m brown, probably going to feel a lot like that. Unless texting too. No, we’re the same color.” And the kid is like is replaced by something a little bit more ergonomic. literally like, please, they know that there is difference between you and them. And other

125 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 39 examples. And these young people just completely to, so there’s this sort of suspended disbelief and rejecting and hating these people who only adopted this suspended sense of civility. I don’t know. them with the best of intentions. And it was Everybody always comes up to us in airports and harrowing, it was really very harrowing. They they say, she’s a lucky girl. And we always, without showed us the first half of the documentary before even consulting with each other, Andrew and I lunch. And they were like, please come back after explain to whoever says it, usually white people, lunch, don’t be scared. But of course, everybody and say, we’re the lucky ones. Or we say, we’re was scared. We were all looking around, terrified. lucky, too. We don’t even discuss it beforehand. It’s But we weren’t all white, that was what was so just what automatically comes out of our mouths. interesting. We were white, there was a Hispanic Like we didn’t rescue her, you know what I mean? couple, there was a couple where one person was It’s not like we seized her from some horrible fate. Asian and the other person wasn’t, we were all, it She would have been fine. was pretty mixed. There were no black couples in there. And then when we came back from lunch, I really see it as, obviously Clementine didn’t they showed us the rest of the documentary, where have any say in this, but I feel like her birth mother they basically, these kids, ten years later, and they entrusted us with her. And she wasn’t giving her to were much more forgiving. Because they were us so that this child wouldn’t be, our birth mother grownups themselves. And one of them, the one that doesn’t live in the projects. We know who she is was the most radicalized, anti-transracial adoption, and it just felt, it just feels, people are just trying to was this black guy. In the first half of the movie be nice, but they can’t help but say something that’s he’s in a dashiki, he’s in an afro, and he’s like “I slightly patronizing to our child. Maybe that’s me reject these white people.” He basically was calling with a chip on my shoulder, or the other, we get the them the equivalent of slave owners. He really had lucky thing, and a couple times we’ve been in nothing that wasn’t rhetorical and incendiary to say airports. See, I don’t even see her as black anymore. about them. And then ten years later, he was much She’s just my kid. She’s just this disobedient and more forgiving. He actually was an adoptive parent crazy and funny and I just don’t see it anymore. So himself. And he said, you know, I feel like now they we were in the Seattle airport and she was standing just wanted to give me a good life and they just like, I don’t know, three or four feet away from me wanted to be parents. So the reward was in seeing when my husband was waiting for our luggage. He these kids making peace with their white adoptive was like three or four feet away from her. And this parents, but it was very eye-opening, and it was one woman comes running out of nowhere and grabs of those movies that’s supposed to scare you into her, and screaming, “Where are your parents? Where deciding who you are and who you want to be, and are your parents?” I think she thought she had if you really want to do this. And then they ask you wandered off or been abandoned there or something. to sign a document at the end of the workshop stating And I just went, um, I’m right here, and that’s her yes, I still want to have a child of a different race, dad, he’s right over there. And the woman just looks or I do not. And I had friends who went to these at us and went Ah! And ran away back where she sessions and they looked at each other, and they came from. And it’s happened in malls and in said no, we’re not doing this. We’re not. But they aquariums, where they just think that something also had a child already and a child with spectrum terrible’s happened. And it’s nice that people are issues, so they just didn’t need another possibility that considerate, I guess, but I’m always surprised of things being complicated or hard for them. And that you just take it for granted that this child is I respect that. yours, and you’re together, and you’re a family, and even though there’s no resemblance. I forget that. I Mike: And your experiences since you had her? forget that there’s no resemblance. Kathleen: Have been wonderful. The funny thing Mike: That would make sense after three years. is, it always happens in airports, it’s this strange thing that happens in airports. People just feel like, Kathleen: That’s the beauty of adoption. And the oh, we’re in an airport, so we’re not in the place hilarious thing is now she’s parroting us, so to hear that we left or we’re not in the place that we’re going

126 THE OLD DAD—Dennehy Podcast pg. 40 her say, “What’s up with that?” exactly like me is ...Everybody always comes up to us in just hilarious. airports and they say, she’s a lucky girl. Mike: As we come to the end, do you have any And we always, without even advice. What are a few things people should consulting with each other, Andrew and consider when going through this at our age? I explain to the people, whoever says Kathleen: Yeah. Well, I think taking care of it, usually white people, and say, we’re yourself is primary. My husband and I are big hikers, the lucky ones. Or we say, we’re lucky, and I think that fitness is huge. Because my feeling is, I don’t want her to feel like she has to take care too. We don’t even discuss it of me in twenty years. And the other thing about beforehand. It’s just what why I love having a loving and supportive automatically comes out of our mouths. relationship with my birth mother, is when I’m 70 Like we didn’t rescue her, you know and Clementine’s 20, her birth mother will be 40. And I relish the two of them being in each other’s what I mean? It’s not like we seized her lives. I invite that. Because what I wanted to say from some horrible fate. She would before this is all over is when you have a child and have been fine.... you know exactly who they look like, and it’s their birth mother and their birth grandmother, it’s like I feel I have this compact with the two of them to So I love to help other people through the process. uphold. And to raise this child with as much esteem And if that means encouraging them to lie about and love and support, because it’s I look at her and their age, I’d do it. I see her ancestry. And I want to do right by that. Because she doesn’t look like me. It’s like there’s Mike: It’s Hollywood, it’s not unusual for people something so poetic about a child and a mom who here to do that. So do it for a good reason for once. look exactly alike, but there’s also something very Kathleen: If you do it for a job, why not do it for poetic about a child and mom who are, it’s like a a child? graft, she’s like been grafted, I call it a baby transplant. I had a baby transplant. And my job is Mike: Thank you so much for your time and I to make that transplant as healthy and as natural have a feeling we’ll be visiting you early and often and as organic as possible. as our kids grow up. Mike: I think there’s no better way to end than Kathleen: Yes, I’d look forward to that. I do. that. That’s beautiful. So Kathleen, thank you so Thank you so much. This was really a wonderful much for your time. Of course the blog is How to experience. Be an Old Mom, and… Kathleen: And when I get my website up, This Old Mom, I really want to create a network and a community for older parents to feel safe. But I also want it to be funny. I want it like how to cheat your Starting in early way through Good Night Moon when you can’t find your eyeglasses. What to say when people say, “Oh, 2015, The Old Dad is that your granddaughter?” That sort of thing. Because there’s more and more of us as science podcast will be and technology advance. And I think it’s a really wonderful community to build on and strengthen. debuting at And I really do love sponsoring other adoptive parents and nurturing them through this process, www.theolddad.com because it’s pretty withering. It’s pretty excruciating.

127 THE OLD DAD PODCAST debuting in early 2015 www.theolddad.com

Max Elijah Randleman (at age 5 hours)

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