CRIMEWATCH UK was violence and wickedness of real- ' wondered about that because broadcast for the first time in June life. But it is clearly providing a in your book about the 1984 and has built and retained an window that helps us to empathise / programme there was this enormous popular appeal. The with the plight of a variety of concern that it really shouldn 't be critical attention paid to it has victims of crime and possibly to do as entertaining as perhaps it's been based on allegations that the something about it - to speed up turning out to be. Are you worried programme's core of real crime the detection process. In a wide- that people enjoy watching it - is there the edge of a worry there? reconstructions panders to ranging interview, Nick Ross, the sensationalism and possibly programme's presenter since that engenders an unnecessary fear of first live broadcast over 13 years I'm really not. As for whether it's crime amongst the most vulnerable ago, gives us an opportunity to a good thing that people enjoy viewers. That debate goes on, but consider this genre of programme Crimewatch - yes I think it is. I'm there is no doubting the and some of the claims that it not at all ashamed that we make programme's strengths. It makes supports, and others that it may popular television. I would be possibly undermine, criminal ashamed if we made populist justice. Or perhaps we just agree television. In other words if we had with him that it represents "... a to degrade standards in order to jolly good watch ". improve the audience. I thinks it's Crimewatcher condescending, it's patronising to rimewatch UK has become believe that going down market - a teenager - 13 years old actually abandoning morality - is C last June. What do you what drives you into bigger Nick Ross talks to David Kidd- think is the basis of its popular audiences. I don't think it does. appeal? I think there was an awful lot Hewitt. of misunderstanding at the Crimewatch is interactive. On the beginning by some of the critics whole, there is nothing much you of Crimewatch, particularly those can do about the television that is who didn't see it and certainly beamed at you, except froth and didn't analyse it, who felt that we foam or sit there like a couch would be driven to get a bigger potato and take it in or maybe audience by being more and more switch channels. But with violent. They just didn't Crimewatch there's always a understand that actually that's not chance - and it's actually a right. When people go to bed reasonable chance - that there is immediately after a programme something you might recognise, which they know is factual, the last even if it is only a part of the thing they want to see is a lot of countryside that you know. But it's violence on the screen. They won't quite possible you know somebody go to sleep. who's rung the programme, and there is always that little frisson to In fact there were far fewer it that maybe you'll be able to conflicts than we first imagined in participate. that respect. Our interests and the audience's interests are very I think it gives a genuine sense closely aligned. Our prime aim is of being on the side of the angels, to be faithful and honest to the of being able to do good. To many victims that our producers and people the world is made up of directors go out and meet and to goodies and baddies, although of make sure that the people who course we are all a mix of goodies have hurt them don't re-offend. It's and baddies. Everybody, whatever honestly the biggest issue in the their own behaviour and however office. much they are despised by others, has their own standards. If you are 'n the early days your producer, a safebreaker, you don't Peter Chafer, made a clear possible a unique interactive necessarily put up with / distinction between what he relationship between the viewer, paedophiles attacking children. called a documentary re- the broadcast media and the police And if you attack young children construction and a drama in aiding the identification of the you don't necessarily put up with documentary. He was very keen to perpetrators of crime, particularly bank robbers for instance. So emphasise that Crimewatch was serious and violent crime. Can this almost everybody has a sense of not engaged in drama. Is this still form of media presentation being able to do something about the case? therefore, help the criminal justice what they perceive as justice. process or perhaps act in some As a second issue, I think it's I think this was the nomenclature small way as an antidote to the just a jolly good watch. The idea of the time. What I would say is undermining of justice elsewhere? that there is a difference between that we are not involved in fiction, There remains an uneasy tension information programmes and and whenever we get something for some between Crimewatch's entertainment programmes is trite. wrong we always try to point it out. mission to entertain whilst If the information isn't Sometimes it's laughable. For bringing before the viewer, the entertaining, nobody will watch. instance, one particular bank raid

Cjm no. 29 Autumn 1997 21 happened in June but when we Once you've got issues with - that is not how a general public that? I am a journalist as well as reconstructed it, it was snowing. which the public can help, then you appeal programme works. But if presenting Crimewatch. If I felt We couldn't wait for three or four have to ask: does it warrant a you really thought that a public there was something underhand reconstruction? In other words is days until the snow stopped. So we appeal would help solve one of going on, that I was being asked, there a story there, in which we can these multi-zillion pound frauds in say, to protect the police from just had to say in the introduction show things which will jog charges of corruption, that would 'that's wrong'. Or if we get the people's memories? one of the great financial institu- be a different matter. That's never colours of cars wrong it's very, Reconstructions can do two tions of the City - great! Bring it arisen nor have we come within a very important. Firstly for the things I suppose. They can stir to us. thousand miles of it. appeal, secondly we don't want to people's emotions to ring in when We will often argue with them prejudice the trial by having they wouldn't otherwise have done m i ver since they began, news but only when we honestly think something wrong, and thirdly just so, or they can jog people's rj papers have wanted to get it is in their own interests. There memories about things they had is a true symbiosis here. If they for the integrity of the thing. * -J what they confront the po- not otherwise connected with a lice about any kind of murder or don't catch their people through People trust the BBC and they will crime. It's quite rare that you get the programme, then the pro- dramatic event. You have this only trust us if we continue to tell that combination. We can go gramme has failed. And if the pro- the truth and we continue to be through 30 or 40 or 50 cases and lovely phrase in the Crimewatch gramme failed it wouldn't con- meticulous about getting it right. you think, there's nothing much to UK book about persuading police tinue. Incidentally, when we come show. officers to "unlock all their se- back and report what's happening Take offences which are very crets ". Do you think you are suc- it seems rather a dramatic and how well things have gone, we grave, where people have been ceeding ? conclusion. You could have injured or sexually assaulted: how always say to the officers, 'if the stimulated people to be do you get a relative who has had Actually it's not strictly true, cer- response is bad, if you are getting a fleeting thought - 'Oh God, could more aware of situations so that tainly not as far as the broadcast other people might find it more dif- nothing, say so' because people that have been Jerry?' - to the point media are concerned, that journal- won't believe us if we say the where they become so emotionally ists have always attempted to get ficult to commit that type of crime. response is good unless we also involved that they are prepared to the police to tell them everything. sometimes say it's bad. contact the police? Radio and television have always I don't think people learn much Then there are the ethical had a rather hands off approach to about how to avoid crimes through issues about intrusion. Take the Crimewatch. Whereas people may 't was originally suggested that the police unlike the crime corre- one we've just done with the spondents of newspapers. When underestimate the chances of be- you might get witnesses to Russell family. Josie Russell had Crimewatch started, the police ing involved in a road accident - / believe they had seen got sick of media attention, for were rather sneered at by televi- actually the likeliest way of dying something that they didn't really heaven's sake, and her father sion and radio. We regarded them between the ages of about 4 and see, because the enactment can managed to get away from Kent as just another part of the crime 45 - people tend to exaggerate their likelihood of being the victim of a add a bit of a gloss to reality. Has and up to North Wales - did he industry. violent crime. And so rather than that dilemma gone away? want Crimewatch to come and So, when Crimewatch started, bring more? Do the police want only three police forces wanted to teaching people how to avoid these you? Do the victims want you? Do have anything to do with us. Most circumstances we tend to shy away It has, actually. We set out in the witnesses? Sometimes if a from that because we don't want uncharted territory so we felt our of them wouldn't touch us with a witness is absolutely adamant - bargepole. It was pretty mutual, I to increase fear of crime. On the way at first and with hindsight we they are frightened of someone for contrary, we want to say 'come on got a lot of things wrong. We have to say. But over 13 and a half example - that's a very good reason years the image of the police has don't be ridiculous, when you walk portrayed things we would never not to do a reconstruction. out in the street don't watch the portray now. We hadn't understood improved enormously. I think In fact there are only around Crimewatch has helped to contrib- shadows and dart from doorway to what you might call the Hitchcock 600 homicides a year. That's not doorway, going around with a shower sequence effect: that ute to that: it's been a cause as well much more than a dozen a week - as an effect of that change. shriek alarm and heaven knows cutting before the violent scene what. Act as though the streets are and most of those are pretty much My experience of the police is 1 actually leaves more to the open and shut, and where they are yours . imagination. We found that that you get a pretty normal distri- not open and shut they are very bution curve. Most are in the mid- The only justification for viewers thought we had actually unlikely to be ones with strangers, Crimewatch is that it reduces vic- shown them scenes that we hadn't. dle, some are so bright and sharp real strangers, involved. So our you wonder what on earth they are timisation. And it does that by But might we contaminate the involvement with that sort of crime catching people who are likely to judicial process? That theoretically doing in the police and why they is quite limited, I'm happy to say. aren't running a big company and re-offend - and we tend to look for remains a danger, but after 13 years crimes where there is a likelihood it's never been seriously raised by making lots of money, and some are so dim you wonder how they of re-offending. But it does it in anybody as an issue. Most re we denying the another way too. There are two witnesses seem to be pretty robust. are holding down their jobs. But possibility of looking at isn't that true in television? Isn't victims of crimes - there is the per- A more complex cases - that true in academia or anywhere son who is the immediate victim n your book you recounted fraud for example, would be a else? And on the whole, yes, they because they are assaulted, they are how difficult it was in the early difficult one - because they are not will divulge to us. robbed whatever, and then there is the person who has gone into crime / days to find three cases entertaining? suitable for reconstruction per and gets their life screwed up as a \e power relationship is an result of it. I hope that we have programme. Is this still a problem. Fraud is a difficult one for only one Important one. Do you still some deterrent effect, albeit a very reason: what sort of witnesses are retain overall control? minor one. There are a lot of things that have we going to get? Was the fraud We go out of our way to show to come together to make a done at 80 miles an hour drawing We do, we must. We're less prissy crime not paying, but in a grown- reconstruction - one of which is of attention to itself down the M4? In about this than we were thirteen up way rather than in a trite, su- course that the public can help. fact I think we have got more ar- and a half years ago, when we perman-type way. For example in Now the public can help with quite rests for white collar crime than would say: editorial control rests the August programme there is a with us - we're the BBC - that's it. a lot of crimes, but not all: perhaps any other single category. But if blackmail. Now we can say hon- But the truth is, now, that if a po- the police have got pretty much all you are talking about the sort of estly blackmail is a crime that al- lice officer doesn't want me to say most never succeeds in the UK. We the witness evidence they want, or frauds that go on in a bank, com- something because it is sensitive know for a variety of reasons that they are awaiting forensic mitted by staff or by directors, you in his or her inquiry, it doesn't get there is a very high reporting rate evidence, or all sorts of other can't expect Crimewatch to help. said. Now, am I doing a disserv- for blackmail. We also know there things. So that narrows it down. We can't expose a Robert Maxwell ice to the public by withholding is a very high clear-up rate. So

22 Cjm no. 29 Autumn 1997 as a whole, very little indeed. It has Crimewatch is at its best, actually, been part of a process in which the where you've got lots of individual police have been perceived to be elements that may all seem unim- more generally acceptable, al- portant but which somebody close though I personally think there is to the offender will recognise. a long way to go. As far as the They may not know the make of courts are concerned I don't think car but that it's red, brown or or- we have had any impact at all - I ange, that it hasn't appeared since really don't. As regards the pro- January, that most of these crimes bation service, the prison service are committed on a Thursday or and so on -1 suppose what we have Friday and for some reason they done is to provide a bulletin board are all after 6pm - just things like to allow for an interchange of in- that which may not mean very formation. Numbers of cases are much to anybody else but will lock solved because a police officer, a together if you've already got a prison officer or a forensic psy- vague suspicion. Now getting that chologist recognises somebody. across to police officers: that's what I would spend the money on / you could re-design I think. Crimewatch for the / millennium and you had a on't have nightmares. Do pretty good budget, would you do here is an opportunity to put in a sleep well. Is this a hollow who don't come from a factual pro- much differently? little crime prevention message. gramme background are what jour- D cliche? nalists regard as cavalier. There Yes, I would spend the money on re you ever accused of Let me tell you how that came have always been reconstructions talking to the police more. There encouraging copycat about. When we did the pilot pro- and drama documentaries and is a problem in direct access to the crimes? gramme we had sat in the cutting A there always will be - and some police. The police are used to pay scant regard to the truth, oth- working through press officers and room and looked at all these things, Oh yes, although the accusations ers are meticulous. Even to the press officers are mighty jealous and thought we had been very never come from people who are point of saying 'it could have been of their power. And the press of- careful about it, then we went into in the 'crime business* - the crimi- a red car, it could have been an ficers tend to see Crimewatch as the studio and we recorded them. nologists, police and prison offic- orange car. No-one's quite sure'. just another media outlet. I don't We did the programme live, in fact ers, and judges. They come from But I think that recklessness about see us as that at all. I see us as an we didn't even have a chance to people who intuitively feel we are facts will always be there. instrument, a tool for the police to rehearse it. And it was only when showing people something which use for detective work. I am quite we were assembling the script that they wouldn't otherwise know. o you think the media have unapologetic about that, I think we we realised it just seemed to be an I'm terribly reluctant to sound a place in the criminal are all on the same side. Whereas enormous catalogue of crimes. We goody-two-shoes about it all, but justice process, in if press officers give anything to thought we were going to raise fear you do have to think very carefully D exposing the difficult edges or any newspaper or most other pro- of murder and rape and mayhem. about what you show. corners that would be overlooked grammes, they can't really control So I just thought at the end, we So often a car-theft is involved, otherwise? what happens, with us they really ought to say - and I'm not even for instance. There are good rea- can. sure that it wasn't ad libbed in the sons to show how cars are stolen, Well, inevitably, the media are go- to stop people being so reckless I'll give you an example. They first one - 'Don't have nightmares, about their vehicles, but actually ing to be used for the difficult bits. held a press conference on the do sleep well'. And we got a lot of we never do. Another example If somebody is sent to prison when Russell case at 10 o'clock that letters about the nice, reassuring bit would be how to disable an alarm the evidence is absolutely over- morning which ran big in the at the end. Somebody said, 'you evening papers, and in the news- system. Anybody who works in whelming and he or she has admit- must say that next time' and I said papers the following day. It was the business knows it's a pretty ted the offence, you are really not 'Oh no, it'll become a cliche if we straightforward thing, but we on all the news bulletins, both ra- say it again'. Anyway the decision going to get a 'Rough Justice' pro- dio and television. I think they had was taken and we said it a second wouldn't dream of showing it. gramme made about it. It's where Where security is at stake, for in- between 50 and 100 calls. From time and once we said it a second stance a security van robbery, we'll you get a stranger murder, which Crimewatch they had 800 to 1000 time it sort of stuck. change details. Where we can appears to be motiveless, or some- calls - now why? It was because body sent to prison for a murder the others ran it as a news story and On the 10th anniversary I was point out the dangers of you try- determined we would drop it. ing things out yourself, we will. If where there is that real nagging we ran it as an appeal. To come back to what I would Eventually I managed to persuade the smoke canister contained in the doubt about whether they did it - cash box didn't go off, we will spend my money on: I would try everybody we should drop it and that's where there is room for the to get police officers to come to us we did. And literally, we got two point that out, making the point Crimewatches, and the Rough Jus- that otherwise they'd all be cov- first. Don't wait until the case is sackfuls of letters. People talk tices. ered in permanent dye. We also 18 months old. So often they come about a sackful of letters but when talk down activities. We talk about I think it is natural that the to us just as they are closing down you see one, it's amazing. And to people 'running away' rather than media should look at the more dif- the incident room, when a huge cap it all, an ITV programme 'escaping', 'fleeing' rather than ficult cases. Their role is pretty amount of money has been spent, which was a sort of rip-off of a high number of people have been 'making off'. self-evident: to galvanise public Crimewatch, closed the following interviewed and heaven knows week by stealing our catchphrase. opinion, to get us to focus on things what has been done. Whereas if 'ou are obviously meticulous That was too much for us, so it where we can help or where pub- they had come to us earlier we came back. yabout the reconstructions lic pressure can help. could have told them maybe we shown on Crimewatch? Is can't do it, but maybe we could there a worry that justice could be have helped them solve the case undermined by less scrupulous ,\at impact do you think much earlier. Nick Ross is a journalist and pre- media coverage? Crimewatch has made I would also spend the money senter of the BBC TV programme on the criminal justice explaining to detectives what it is Crimewatch. His book, I think crime programmes will system? that we need from a public appeal: Crimewatch UK, co-authored with have to get it right, otherwise they what the elements are that a recon- Sue Cook, was published in 1987 will get into trouble, There has I think it has made very little im- struction requires. It has got to be by Hodder and Stoughton. always been a danger that people pact on the criminal justice system more than just an interesting story.

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