Monday Volume 681 5 October 2020 No. 113

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday 5 October 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 591 5 OCTOBER 2020 592 House of Commons Local Authorities: Funding Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): What recent assessment Monday 5 October 2020 he has made of the adequacy of Government funding for local authorities. [907010]

The House met at half-past Two o’clock The Minister for Regional Growth and Local Government (Luke Hall): Wesaid we would support councils throughout this pandemic, and that is exactly what we are doing. PRAYERS We have provided £4.8 billion in additional funding for spending pressures, including £3.7 billion of un-ringfenced [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] funding. This is in addition to councils’ core spending power rising by over £2.9 billion this financial year, Virtual participation in proceedings commenced which is the largest year-on-year real-terms increase in a (Order, 4 June). decade. [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] Tony Lloyd [V]: The Minister will know that Rochdale council has lost some £200 million in Government cuts over the last years, and this year it is likely to be Oral Answers to Questions £20 million short of money,even with the extra Government funding. The people who will suffer most from this are those dependent on acute services, children’s services and, of course, the elderly and the vulnerable. How HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL does the Minister intend to make sure that they do not GOVERNMENT suffer?

The Secretary of State was asked— Luke Hall: The hon. Gentleman of course knows that this year’s local government finance settlement saw Affordable Homes to Buy Rochdale Borough Council receive an increase of £12 million this year, which he did not object to when Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) the finance settlement came through the House in February. (Con): What steps he is taking to increase the number of More widely,throughout this pandemic we have supported affordable homes available to buy. [907009] Rochdale with £93 million to local councils, businesses and the local area. If Rochdale council is concerned The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and about its financial settlements or about the financial Local Government (Robert Jenrick): This Government situation, it should get in contact with my Department are making sure that hard-working families and first-time at the earliest opportunity. I would say that over half of buyers have affordable, quality homes to call their own. the £4.8 billion allocated to local authorities has been Last month, we confirmed over £12 billion of investment spent on social care, but I am always happy to discuss it to build more affordable homes—the most significant with him further. of its kind in living memory. This includes our new affordable homes programme, which will deliver up to Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op): Councils 180,000 homes from next year. are facing in-year cuts of around £3 billion because the Secretary of State broke his promise to fully fund Dr Johnson: I thank the Secretary of State for his councils for the cost of getting communities through answer. My constituents are keen to see villages grow the pandemic, and that is according to the Conservative-led gently, sympathetically and with a range of larger and Local Government Association. The Minister tries to more affordable homes, and I am pleased to hear him wish this away by bandying around Government funding focus on quality.How will my right hon. Friend’s planning intended for specific purposes that cannot be used to reforms focus on quality and ensure that no new three- plug gaps in the council’s general funds. Since he would storey, densely packed, large developments of identikit not wish to try to pull that same trick again here, would houses are allowed to ruin the edges of small villages? he tell the House which services he now expects councils to cut to plug the funding gap created by his broken Robert Jenrick: Like my hon. Friend, this Government promises? believe that beautiful high-quality homes should be the norm in every area of this country.Our reformed planning Luke Hall: Let us step back and look at the facts here. system will place a much higher regard on quality, If we look at the local government finance settlement—the design and local character, such as that in Lincolnshire, hon. Gentleman did not object to it in February; he than ever before. Local planning authorities already supported it—and at the fact that local government has have the power to set high standards for housing, including reported a £3.1 billion increase in spending pressures setting parameters for density, open space and private for covid, we have supported them with £4.8 billion, gardens. However, to go further, I have announced that including £3.7 billion of un-ringfenced funding. What is we will create a new national design code, and I have not surprising is the hon. Gentleman turning up again asked Nicholas Boys Smith, the founder of Create today and talking down councils and their ability to Streets, to establish a new body to help every local respond to this crisis. Local authorities are proving community to create their own design code and deliver themselves to be a resourceful, dynamic force, and we locally popular architecture for everyone. should be praising them. 593 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 594

Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Could I will involve promoting gentle density, but we will do say that the Government’s decision to help councils everything we can to protect both the green belt and our with loss of funding, particularly for leisure centres, beautiful countryside. parking revenue and such things, is welcome? There is one group of authorities, however, that have not been Places of Worship: Covid-19 compensated—the councils that run their leisure services at arm’slength. I raised this with the Minister’spredecessor Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): What steps back in July, and the response I got was that the his Department has taken to help places of worship Government open safely during the covid-19 outbreak. [907012] “are very serious about tackling it.”—[Official Report, 9 July 2020; Vol. 678, c. 1224.] John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): What steps his Department Since then, because Sheffield has lost over £10 million, has taken to help places of worship open safely during which it has not been compensated for, from its leisure the covid-19 outbreak. [907018] centres’ loss of income, we have written as Sheffield MPs to the Secretary of State twice—once in August The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and and once in September, the second with the local leisure Local Government (Robert Jenrick): As Communities clubs—and we have not had a response. Could the Secretary, ensuring places of worship can reopen and Minister therefore update the House on what is happening remain open has been a priority for me and my Department. in general on this issue, and will he agree to meet Their contribution to our country as places of solace, as Sheffield MPs to discuss this issue, which really affects well as for significant moments such as weddings and our city and its finances? funerals, is clear to us all. Places of worship remain open today for more than six people for communal Luke Hall: I thank the Chair of the Select Committee prayer and services with existing covid-secure requirements for his question. We recognise the vital role leisure continuing to apply. centre facilities play in keeping our communities safe and protecting mental health. We are working closely Afzal Khan [V]: During this pandemic we have seen a with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and sharp spike in Islamophobia, from blaming Muslims Sport on a further package of support for leisure centres. for the spread of covid-19 to fuelling online hate. I am I am happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and other sure the Secretary of State will want to join me in Sheffield MPs to discuss the matter. commending the community for its patience and hard work in these difficult months. Given that the Scientific Brownfield Sites: Development Advisory Group for Emergencies has previously highlighted the good work of the Muslim Council of Britain in Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): reaching minority groups that the Government are unable What steps he is taking to support development on or unwilling to reach, can he outline what discussions brownfield sites. [907023] he has had with the MCB and other Muslim organisations on the safe reopening of mosques? The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Robert Jenrick): Delivering much Robert Jenrick: Like the hon. Gentleman, I want to needed new, higher-quality greener homes across the praise and thank the Muslim communities throughout country is central to the mission of this Government. the country for their forbearance. We have worked To do that, we will continue to prioritise building on closely with them through our places of worship taskforce brownfield sites to deliver the homes that we need while that the Prime Minister and I set up. I have had the also regenerating our towns and cities. As a first step, privilege to meet representatives from mosques, including we have allocated more than £400 million from our the London Central Mosque on the eve of the Eid brownfield fund to seven mayoral combined authorities, celebrations,to thank them once again for their forbearance. unlocking 26,000 new homes while protecting our greenfield We have put in place detailed guidelines to help mosques sites. Even as we overhaul our outdated planning system, to reopen safely and will continue to work with Muslim our reforms make very clear that we will continue to groups in the weeks and months ahead. protect the green belt and prioritise development on brownfield land. John Spellar: It is clear from what the Secretary of State has said that he recognises that in these troubled Mr Mohindra: As my right hon. Friend knows, my times places of worship are more important than ever in beautiful constituency of South West Hertfordshire is providing for the spiritual and material needs of their 80% green belt. Does he agree that continued protection congregations and in combating loneliness and mental of the green belt and prioritising building on brownfield health problems. However, they face their own challenges sites is the right thing to do? in making their premises safe for their worshippers and meeting the costs of that as well as for their own people. Robert Jenrick: I am very happy to assure my hon. What help is the Department giving directly to places of Friend once again that the protection of the green belt worship to facilitate that provision, and is it engaging remains a priority, as does developing brownfield land with them regularly to ensure that this can be effectively in all parts of the country, including Hertfordshire. We implemented? do need to build more homes, including in places where homes are most expensive. It is, and will continue to be, Robert Jenrick: The right hon. Gentleman makes a however, for local councils to decide which sites are series of very important points. At the start of the available, and which sites are viable and suitable for new pandemic, I recognised that places of worship needed homes. That will involve reimagining high streets and it to be prioritised. They should not be relegated behind 595 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 596 other activities, whether shops, casinos or other important Rough Sleepers: Covid-19 things that we want to keep open to protect people’s livelihoods. Places of worship matter for those with Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con): What steps he faith, and we needed to ensure that they could reopen. I is taking to support rough sleepers during the covid-19 worked extremely closely with faith leaders through our outbreak. [907015] places of worship taskforce. That work continues, and we have very good relationships with all the major The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, faiths. The guidelines are in place and are now extremely Communities and Local Government (Kelly Tolhurst): detailed. They cover not only basic guidelines for all Since the beginning of the covid-19 pandemic, nearly faiths, but very detailed guidelines for individual practices 15,000 vulnerable people have been housed in emergency for particular religions. We saw that prominently recently, accommodation thanks to the hard work of local councils for example, with the Jewish holidays, when we worked and charities, saving hundreds of lives. We are now out detailed guidelines for Yom Kippur. We will continue moving on to the next steps through our Next Steps to work closely with faith leaders in the weeks and Accommodation programme. Wehave recently announced months ahead. over £90 million for local authorities in England to prevent those we have accommodated from returning to Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab) [V]: Since reopening, the streets. mosques have incurred the cost of PPE, which is an additional financial cost to them, along with deep cleaning Angela Richardson: May I warmly welcome my hon. several times a day after members and visitors visit. The Friend to her new role on the Front Bench? This Muslim Council of Britain estimates that it has already Government’s commitment to end rough sleeping is given out £500,000 in small grants, but there are far clear to see in the extensive and regular funding given to more mosques in need than those funds can reach. councils over the past year. I commend David Newbery, What action is the Secretary of State taking to financially senior homelessness prevention officer at Guildford support places of worship to reopen in a covid-secure Borough Council, who successfully found appropriate way? accommodation for a victim of domestic violence I had spoken to on a Saturday morning by that very evening— Robert Jenrick: Alongside other charities, places of there was the additional complication of a positive worship are able to apply to the £200 million coronavirus covid status—so that she did not have to spend another community support fund, which has helped organisations night unwell and fearful. Will my hon. Friend join me in providing essential services for vulnerable people affected paying tribute to the commitment of those on the by the current crisis. ground in Guildford, who are working tirelessly in partnership with central Government to end rough Planning System: Design and Beauty sleeping?

Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): What Kelly Tolhurst: I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting steps he is taking to ensure that design and beauty are the tremendous work of those in her constituency. I join prioritised in the planning system. [907014] with her in paying tribute to those, not only in her constituency but across the country, who worked so The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): With hard with the Government to end rough sleeping and our planning White Paper “Planning for the future”, we on the delivery of the significant programme of are seeking views on proposals to achieve just what my accommodating nearly 15,000 people during covid-19. hon. Friend refers to in his question. We are putting the We are committed to protecting victims of domestic creation of beautiful places at the heart of national abuse, investing over £80 million since 2014. Today, a planning policy, encouraging greater use of design codes new £6 million fund will help tier 1 councils to prepare based on what people want to see in their area, supporting for the implementation of the new legal duty in the local authorities and directing Homes England to help Domestic Abuse Bill. deliver that. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): The coronavirus Gary Sambrook: Under the White Paper, Bournville, pandemic and the Government’s actions during it have an area that I am lucky enough to part-represent, was shown that homelessness is a choice—not of the homeless used as an example of an area of beauty. George themselves, but of the Government. Will this Tory Cadbury in 1893 had his vision of building houses for Government choose to permit the existence of homelessness, the area. Today,there are 25,000 people across 8,000 homes or will they extend their actions during the pandemic to in Bournville. Will the Minister please accept an invite eradicate the problem once and for all? from the Bournville Village Trust to come and see the area for himself and the excellent work it is doing to Kelly Tolhurst: The hon. Gentleman knows that this maintain that beautiful community? Government are committed to working hard to end rough sleeping by the end of the Parliament. That is Christopher Pincher: I am obliged to my hon. Friend clear in the investment the Government have made, for that question and for that invitation to his constituency, particularly during the pandemic and, as I have just being as it is just a hop, skip and a jump from my outlined in my previous response, with the Next Steps constituency of Tamworth. George Cadbury certainly Accommodation Programme.Weare committed to making had a vision for his community. I look forward to sure that during the pandemic all individuals who were joining my hon. Friend and his friends in Bournville accommodated are supported, so they can move forward village to realise their modern 21st-century vision for and have great lives, and we keep many individuals off his constituents. the streets. 597 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 598

Local Authorities: Additional Funding for Covid-19 Christopher Pincher: I am obliged to the hon. Lady. She seems to have forgotten the ambition of this Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): What steps he Government, which has already been stated. We were is taking to ensure that local authorities receive adequate the first Government in the world to legislate for net funding for additional costs related to the covid-19 zero. She seems to have forgotten that just a few days outbreak. [907016] ago, we introduced the green homes grant; 600,000 homes will benefit from that grant. She seems to have forgotten The Minister for Regional Growth and Local Government the work we have done to drive down poor energy (Luke Hall): We have provided local authorities with an performance certificate standards; now only 5% of homes unprecedented package of support, including £4.8 billion are in the G category. We will certainly be ambitious. funding for spending pressures,£3.7 billion in un-ring-fenced We will continue to work hard to build green homes for grants, and £1.1 billion for the infection control fund. our country, and I am sure that when it comes to it and We have also introduced a co-payment scheme to help the hon. Lady stops talking, she will start to walk councils recoup irrecoverable losses in sales fees and with us. charges. In total, we have committed over £28 billion to local areas to support councils, businesses and their High Street Businesses: Covid-19 communities since the start of the pandemic.

Sir George Howarth [V]: All of which is welcome, but Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): What steps he is last week the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority taking with Cabinet colleagues to support high street called for a comprehensive Government-backed package businesses during the covid-19 outbreak. [907019] to deal with the problems for the local economy that will be caused by the introduction of the latest covid-19 Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What steps he is taking measures. Today, the combined authority and the Metro with Cabinet colleagues to support high street businesses Mayor announced a £40 million welcome package to during the covid-19 outbreak. [907033] support local businesses and jobs. Will the Minister agree to hold an urgent meeting with local MPs, the The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and combined authority and the Metro Mayor to discuss Local Government (Robert Jenrick): Revitalising our what further assistance the Government can provide to towns and high streets is vital to the Government’s support our local economy? effort to respond to the coronavirus pandemic, supporting people’s jobs and getting businesses trading again. Last Luke Hall: The right hon. Gentleman will be fully month, we provided an £80 million boost to over 100 towns aware that Knowsley has received £30 million in additional from our £3.6 billion towns fund, kickstarting important un-ring-fenced spending to deal with pressures resulting local investment projects. from the pandemic, on top of the £10 million increase in its core spending power this financial year. More Chris Green: I thank my right hon. Friend for his widely,Knowsley received £51 million to support councils, answer. I also thank the Government for deciding to businesses and the community. He will be interested to ease the lockdown on Bolton so that people can start know that to prepare for local outbreaks we have provided using cafés, pubs and restaurants more normally. This a £300 million grant to all upper tier authorities to has also had the benefit of bringing more people on to develop strong and effective local outbreak plans. In our high streets and increasing footfall. As a further relation to ongoing engagement, I met the Mayor of step, will he consider having 10 pm as last orders to Greater Manchester last week and I believe he is meeting enable a safe exit from pubs and restaurants as people the Secretary of State tomorrow. We are, of course, leave and perhaps use public transport? happy to continue those discussions. Robert Jenrick: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Future Homes Standard The requirement for pubs and some other businesses to be closed to the general public by 10 pm was designed Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): For what reasons to strike the balance of allowing people to continue to he plans to introduce the future homes standard in 2025. socialise while reducing social contact and minimising [907017] negative impacts on the economy. He will know that we The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): Our do not take these decisions lightly. None of us would future homes standard reforms propose an ambitious want that to continue a day longer than is necessary, uplift in the energy efficiency of new homes. The homes and as with all measures, we will keep them under will have at least 75% lower emissions than current constant review. standards. That is real action toward a cleaner and greener built environment. Furthermore, ahead of 2025, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Tomorrow. we have consulted on a meaningful interim increase in the requirements of part L of the building regulations, Mr Speaker: It is actually Mark Menzies now. which will act as a stepping stone to a full uplift. Mark Menzies [V]: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Many Sarah Olney: If I cannot persuade the Minister to be business owners in Fylde and their employees have more ambitious in his deadline, perhaps I could encourage found themselves on the frontline of enforcing social him to use the time to be more ambitious in his target. distancing guidelines in recent months. What is the Instead of a target of reducing carbon emissions Minister doing to support those businesses, as well as by 75%, will the Government set a target of net zero local authorities, to ensure that high streets remain safe carbon for new builds? and public confidence high? 599 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 600

Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend will be pleased to and local recovery White Paper as an exciting opportunity hear that we published the safer urban centres and to lay out our plans for devolution in this Parliament. green spaces guidance to provide exactly that kind of We will bring it forward in due course, and I am very information to business owners and councils. We have happy to listen to her representations about what should supported that with a £50 million reopening high streets be in it. safely fund and, more recently, with £60 million for the police and local councils to provide enforcement and Agricultural Land: Development compliance. This comes on top of our cuts to the taxes of local businesses through the business rates holiday, Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): What steps he the 5% cut in VAT, and the reforms that we have taken is taking to ensure that high-quality agricultural land is through to help small businesses, whether that is on use not used for housing developments. [907021] class orders, outdoor dining and markets, or creating a simpler route through the planning system for The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): My regeneration—all measures designed to support businesses right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already and protect jobs, and all opposed by the Labour party. alluded, in his answer to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire (Mr Mohindra), English Devolution and Local Recovery: White Paper to the £400 million brownfield fund, delivering 26,000 homes, and our commitment to prioritising brownfield sites does not end there. Our national planning policy Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): When he plans framework is clear that brownfield should be prioritised to publish the White Paper on English devolution and for redevelopment for housing, and that local authorities local recovery. [R] [907020] should avoid using our best and most versatile farmland wherever and whenever possible. The Minister for Regional Growth and Local Government (Luke Hall): The Government intend to bring forward Sir Roger Gale [V]: My right hon. Friend knows that the English devolution and local recovery White Paper I have a high regard for him personally, but I am afraid in due course, setting out how we will partner with that that does not extend to a planning White Paper places across the UK to build a sustainable economic that seems designed to smother the south-east of England recovery. I was very pleased to see that the parliamentary and the garden of England in houses not for local order to implement the Sheffield city region deal in law people but for people from elsewhere. In responding to was made in July, and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (James on all his work and support in finally reaching that Daly), the Secretary of State said that the brownfield significant milestone in his work so far as Mayor. fund would be made available to metropolitan areas. Will that be extended across the board to rural areas as Dan Jarvis [V]: I am grateful to the Minister for his well? Also, could my right hon. Friend give us an response. He will know that devolution has the power to assurance that all of the 1 million consents already transform people’s lives and local economies, but as a granted will be used before a single further blade of Mayor, it too often feels like I do not yet have the greenfield site in agricultural land is also used? powers and resources to make transformative changes. The White Paper represents a golden opportunity to Christopher Pincher: I am obliged to my right hon. reset the dial, so does he agree that to properly empower Friend for his question. I can confirm that, though he is local and regional leaders, the Government should commit correct that the £400 million made available for the to place-based, multi-year, flexible budgets so that we brownfield regeneration fund was targeted at mayoral can better deliver for our communities? combined authorities, the home building fund has in it £5 billion to support new housing, including brownfield Luke Hall: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. projects. More than 300 projects in England will receive I was delighted to meet him and nine colleagues from a share of the £900 million to get Britain building: the across the country to discuss their representations about getting building fund. That will also, I trust, support his the upcoming White Paper. We are genuinely pleased constituency. I also remind him that just a couple of with the combined authority Mayors and the progress days ago we voted for permitted development rights, that they are making, but of course, we recognise that which will allow for the reimagining of town centres, there is more to do. We will publish the White Paper in and the demolition and rebuild of disused commercial due course. buildings. That will also take the weight off any pressure on green spaces, so the Government are committed to Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab) [V]: In the 2019 the end that my right hon. Friend wants: building Conservative manifesto, the Government promised that brownfield first. every part of the country would have the powers to shape their own destiny. Given the broken promises that Dangerous Cladding: Residential Buildings councils have had from the Government recently, can the Minister confirm that the White Paper honours that Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What steps manifesto pledge, and that local leaders will have the his Department is taking to ensure that dangerous powers to decide what works best for their communities? cladding is removed from residential buildings of all heights. [907022] Luke Hall: I am not exactly sure what promise the hon. Lady was referring to, but we have certainly kept Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): What our promises to protect councils during this pandemic steps his Department is taking to ensure that dangerous by providing them with billions of pounds of funding cladding is removed from residential buildings of all to support their covid response. We see the devolution heights. [907027] 601 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 602

Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): What steps his Sam Tarry: According to leading civil servants, the Department is taking to ensure that dangerous cladding building safety fund will cover less than a third of the is removed from residential buildings of all heights. buildings that require external remediation, and it does [907034] not even cover the interim safety measures and costs that may unscrupulous freeholders have been pushing The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): We on to leaseholders, including at Raphael House in my are taking action with the biggest reforms of building constituency.My constituents and I are wondering whether and fire safety in nearly 40 years through the Building the Government could increase the budget for that fund Safety Bill. To tackle the most urgent problems, we have so that all buildings are covered, including the cost of already made available £1.6 billion to remove unsafe the expensive interim safety measures, and extend the cladding systems, and appointed expert construction application deadline beyond April so that freeholders consultants to review aluminium composite material can act responsibly in the best interests of leaseholders remediation timescales and to work at increased pace. and tenants. There therefore should be no excuse for delay. Christopher Pincher: The objective of the £1 billion Paul Blomfield: There should indeed be no excuse for fund is to target those properties that most need help, delay, but a constituent of mine tells me that she and where there is no other immediate means of helping her partner are stuck between a rock and a hard place them. £1 billion is not a small amount of money and it because they cannot sell their flat. Up to half a million is important that we get that money out of the door people are now in the same position. The Minister will first to help those places that need it. The hon. Gentleman know that whether buildings are above 18 metres or, as might, while he is at it, have a word with the Mayor of in the case of my constituent, below that height, mortgage London, because London is lagging well behind the lenders are requiring EWS1 forms for fire safety clearance. remediation of properties around England. That is why My constituent’s management company refuses to test Lord Greenhalgh had to organise a London summit to her building because it is below 18 metres. The Select get London to up its game. So, as much as we are Committee called for urgent action in June, so what is determined to get the money out of the door, he must the Minister doing to help all those who are trapped by encourage the Mayor to do the same. the failure of remediation and by these requirements? Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): Ritu and Rebecca Christopher Pincher: With respect to buildings below are among the many thousands of people now trapped 18 metres, we are following the advice of Dame Judith in this situation despite their good intentions. Hon. Hackitt to target the tallest buildings—those over Members across the House have discussed the EWS1 18 metres—because they are at greatest danger of fire if form today. The current estimate for the 1.5 million they are clad. With respect to the EWS1 form—a Royal people stuck in this situation is that it will take 15 years-plus Institution of Chartered Surveyors form—I can confirm to resolve. This requires a sense of urgency. When the that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had Minister going to get a grip of the situation? discussions with lenders and that my noble Friend the noble Lord Greenhalgh has discussed with the insurance Christopher Pincher: As I explained to the House just industry how to resolve these matters better. We are a moment ago—I think the hon. Gentleman heard what encouraging the industry to accept alternative evidence I said— the Government are working with lenders to of assurances. Not all lenders require EWS1 forms, and make sure that this situation moves as quickly as possible, we will encourage more lenders to take similar action. so that lenders require other more easily available assurances and are encouraged to act much more quickly. We Rebecca Long Bailey: Countless Salford residents are continue to work with the industry to make sure that among over 700,000 nationally who are still living in those people get the help and support they need, and I dangerously cladded homes, yet only 65 registrations to can confirm to him that we will bring forward further the building safety fund have been allowed to proceed, proposals very soon. an estimated 1.5 million people cannot sell their homes, and exorbitant remediation costs are still being passed Regeneration: Town Centres on to leaseholders for defects that they did not cause. Will the Minister end this protracted scandal today and Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): commit to the proposals set out by the End Our Cladding What steps he is taking to support regeneration in town Scandal campaign and the Housing, Communities and centres. [907024] Local Government Committee? Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): What steps he Christopher Pincher: I have every sympathy with the is taking to support regeneration in town centres. situation that the hon. Lady’s constituents find themselves [907029] in. She will understand that in order to target the right buildings and ensure that the buildings most at risk are The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, prioritised, it is important that the money disbursed by Communities and Local Government (Kelly Tolhurst): the Government is spent effectively. We have had We are committed to supporting regeneration in town 2,784 registrations to the end of September, and 1,857 of centres through the £3.6 billion towns fund, which those—many of them received on the last day of application includes the £1 billion future high streets fund. Last in July—were incomplete. We are working with the week, we made an announcement on £80 million from owners and with the submitters of the registrations to the towns fund, which will go to more than 100 towns in ensure that they get the information right, and as soon England, to kick-start regeneration projects. We are as they get the information right, we can determine also providing support to local leaders through the when we can get the money out of the door. I hope that High Streets Task Force and have protected businesses we get the first money out of the door very soon indeed. from eviction during the covid pandemic. 603 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 604

Mrs Murray: My constituency office is in Liskeard, a Overdevelopment: London and the South-East small market town that is more than 1,000 years old. It lost the head office of the local district council when Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): What steps that authority was abolished and its farmers’ market he is taking to prevent overdevelopment in London and has left the town. What more can be done to increase the South East. [907025] demand again in small town centres such as Liskeard? The Minister for Housing (Christopher Pincher): We Kelly Tolhurst: I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting are committed to delivering the homes and communities the beauty of her town of Liskeard, and she knows that that this country needs, while protecting our important I, too, am a fan of her part of the country.The Government green spaces and avoiding overdevelopment anywhere are totally committed to helping our high streets and in the country. Our consultation sets out the elements town centres to adapt to changing consumer behaviour that we intend to balance when determining local housing during this challenging period. To achieve that, the need, including building 300,000 homes, tackling Government are supporting places across the country affordability challenges in the places where people most with the High Streets Task Force, which will work with want to live, and levelling up our towns and cities. The local authorities and groups to get the access to the consultation recently closed and we are reflecting carefully experts required to come up with the ideas and drive to on the feedback. build the skills for sustainable place making and share that best practice. We have also introduced reforms to Theresa Villiers: In March, the Secretary of State planning use to enable that mixture on the high streets wrote a strongly worded letter to the Mayor of London to drive footfall and businesses into our town centres. to express concern that his London plan tilts away from family homes towards one-bedroom flats. How does the Marco Longhi: High streets such as mine in Dudley Secretary of State reconcile the inconsistency between have undergone a period of profound change—they did that letter and his new housing algorithm, which will so even before the pandemic struck—so does the Minister generate such high targets that they are unachievable agree that making it easier to convert commercial and without tower blocks full of predominantly one-bedroom retail units into new homes will help regenerate the high flats? street and create more housing? Christopher Pincher: As I said, we will reflect carefully Kelly Tolhurst: My hon. Friend is right. We agree that on the feedback that we receive from the consultation turning disused commercial and retail units into new on calculating local housing need. My right hon. Friend homes can provide more housing, and create more refers to the desire to protect quiet neighbourhoods and vibrant town and city centres. A number of national ensure that they are not overborne by tall tower blocks. permitted development rights allow for shops, offices I am keen to make sure that local authorities are at the and high streets to change to residential use, which will heart of decision making, and we will make sure that have the impact of creating environments where people that is a fundamental part of our response to the want to live, work—[Interruption.] And play. consultation. I reassure my right hon. Friend, who is a doughty campaigner for the fine borough of Barnet, which builds lots of homes, that we will bring forward Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful proposals to achieve the sorts of ends that she is looking for. to you, Mr Speaker, for letting me stand in for my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West (Naz Shah), who Topical Questions has not been able to get here, and I hope that the Minister will not be lost for words with this one. The [907069] Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): If he Secretary of State has been criticised for the way he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. allocated taxpayers’ money through the towns fund. He will share my concern that there must never be any The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and question of gerrymandering public funds, so will he Local Government (Robert Jenrick): Our town centres explain why he ignored civil servants on how the towns and high streets are the beating heart of our communities. fund should be spent, and blocked funds for Sunderland, Our landmark towns fund, through which we are investing Stockport and Ashington but handed out money to £3.6 billion into more than 100 towns, is just one part of wealthier towns with more prosperous high streets, such that commitment. Wealso want to give local communities as Newark, which he just happens to represent? the freedom to transform their areas for the better—to give boarded-up eyesores on the high street a new lease Kelly Tolhurst: The hon. Gentleman knows that I of life, to give shop owners the flexibility to change the have had a lot of respect for him in his previous work in use of their property, and to allow families the chance this House, but I am disappointed with his position to increase the size of their home as their family grows. there. As an elected Member of Parliament, I am totally Each of these reforms will help small businesses and committed, like this Government, to driving up regeneration individuals to sustain jobs and invest in local communities. across the country, in no matter what part of the United That is the mission of this Government. Kingdom. Suggesting that there was anything underhand in relation to that towns fund is totally out of order. I Antony Higginbotham: This year marks 75 years since can tell him that that fund has been allocated to towns the liberation of Auschwitz. It vital that we remember up and down the country. They are dying for that what happened so that we can learn the lessons of the regeneration and people want to see their towns developed, past, so will my right hon. Friend reassure me and the and we are committed to continuing to deliver on the House that the Government remain committed to delivering promises we have made. a national holocaust memorial? 605 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 606

Robert Jenrick: I am delighted that the Leader of the Robert Jenrick: I work closely with the devolved Opposition, the right hon. and learned Member for Administrations on housing matters, and I am open to Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), has expressed any representation from the Housing Minister in Scotland. his support for the national holocaust memorial. I hope As far as I am aware, we have had no representation that now is the moment for Members from all parties in whatsoever. this House and, indeed, in the other place to unite behind the proposal and ensure that the memorial is [907071] Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) built as soon as possible. (Con): In Crewe and Nantwich, we have seen recently another example of planning permission being given for a housing development without sufficient consideration Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): With millions of the impact on the local NHS, which really causes of people living in homes that are cold, damp and concern among my residents, especially as the development expensive to heat, in the midst of a respiratory illness went against both the neighbourhood plan and the pandemic, with millions more looking to the Government local plan. What more can we do to ensure that the to give hope for the good jobs of the future, and with a impact on NHS services is more consistently taken into climate change crisis as well, what part of cancelling account in planning decisions? Labour’s zero-carbon homes standard does the Secretary of State think was a good idea? When will he commit his Government to returning to a zero-carbon—not Robert Jenrick: The decision to which my hon. Friend low-carbon but zero-carbon—homes standard? refers is now being challenged in court, so it would not be appropriate for me to comment while those proceedings are live. None the less, he makes an extremely important Robert Jenrick: As we have set out time and again, we point that people across the country want to see are committed to net-zero homes—we do not want to infrastructure flowing with new housing, whether that see any new home built in this country that needs be hospitals, GP surgeries or schools. I would highlight expensive retrofitting in future. If anyone thinks that that, in our planning reforms, our new infrastructure the Labour party is going to deliver that or indeed any levy will drive more investment in infrastructure—both other strategy for homes in this country, they will be social infrastructure and physical infrastructure—in the “sorely disappointed”—those are the words of years to come. The Guardian, not myself. The hon. Lady said that it would be years before she was able to bring forward any [907075] Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]: The plans for housing whatsoever. What a sad indictment of current top-down centralised response to covid is not the Labour party—the party of Herbert Morrison and working anywhere near as well as it needs to. Properly Clement Attlee. We are planning to build a million new integrating council leaders and metro Mayors into the homes in this country; the Labour party’s plans are as decision-making process will help protect lives and empty and vacuous as a Wendy house blown over in the livelihoods. May I ask the Minister or the Secretary of first gust of autumn wind. State to ensure that, together, we work to achieve properly joined-up Government and that local and regional leaders are treated like partners and not Mr Speaker: Can I just say that the questions are passengers? [R] pretty short and the answers are meant to be pretty short as well? I say to the Secretary of State that I am going to run the whole list of questions. The Minister for Regional Growth and Local Government (Luke Hall): The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Of course we are in regular contact with the M9 group of [907070] Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) Mayors about the covid-19 response and indeed, as I (Con): The Government are absolutely right in their have said, we have meetings with him and colleagues commitment to building more homes, but we also need tomorrow with the Secretary of State. Metro Mayors do to look after the ones that we have. I am especially occasionally attend Cobra meetings where it is appropriate. thinking of those predominately council estates that In relation to the pandemic, it is particularly important were built in the ‘50s, ‘60s and ‘70s, with many homes that we recognise the crucial working relationship with falling into a state of disrepair. Will the Secretary of Public Health England and the fact that we are led by the State commit to looking at ways in which we can chief medical officer. I completely agree with the hon. regenerate those estates and build back better? Gentlemanthattheimportanceof closeworkingwithmetro Mayors up and down the country is absolutely vital. Robert Jenrick: I will. I would like to see further investment in estates regeneration of the kind that my [907072] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) hon. Friend describes,and he will know that my hon. Friend (Con): My right hon. Friend knows that I have the Chancellor recently announced £2 billion for the previously raised this issue about ensuring that new green homes grants to improve homes across the country. build homes meet the required standard. Sadly, my own constituency has had cases of residents moving into new properties with considerable issues on the moving David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Scotland has date, such as, for example, a flooded kitchen. Such had more structural rules on cladding than the rest of situations are unacceptable, and we need to see every the UK for several years now and has different tenancy home built to high standards now and also fit for the forums from England, so does the Secretary of State future in environmental standards and connectivity. have any idea of the potential consequences of the Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the new homes internal market Bill on Scottish housing regulations ombudsman service will hit the ground running and and building standards, including those on cladding? protect residents purchasing new build homes? 607 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 608

Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend is absolutely right [907074] Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): I that too many homes have been built in this country to thank my right hon. Friend for the unprecedented level poor standards in the recent past. That is why we are of financial support that his Department has provided now legislating for the new homes ombudsman, and we to regenerate Blackpool town centre—not just the are already taking action by working with the New £8.6 million that we received over the course of the Homes Quality Board to raise standards. We will also summer but the £50 million that we are expecting to respond in due course to the Law Commission’simportant receive via the towns fund and the future high streets reports, with which we intend to right the wrongs of fund. Can he reassure me that regenerating towns leasehold as quickly as possible. such as Blackpool will remain at the very heart of this Government’s levelling up agenda as we get the [907078] Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): You economy back on track? and Ministers, Mr Speaker, will remember that, three and a half years ago, New Ferry in my constituency Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend has been a doughty suffered from a terrible gas explosion, which hurt people champion for Blackpool in his time in the House so far. and left a massive hole in our town centre. I am grateful It is absolutely right that Blackpool receives further that, this week, Ministers will meet me to discuss progress investment to help it to continue to drive forwards. That that we are making rebuilding New Ferry. I simply is why I am pleased that it is a recipient of funding from ask the Minister if he will join with me to publicly the high streets fund and the towns fund. I look forward thank, and place on the record the thanks of all of us to announcing the outcome of both this autumn. to, the people of New Ferry for the work that they have done to rebuild our town centre. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is 232 days since Storm Dennis flooded many,many properties in Rhondda. Luke Hall: I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. I A quarter of all such properties in the whole of the UK pay extreme tribute to the residents, businesses and were in one constituency, Rhondda, and that is wholly charitable organisations in New Ferry who have worked disproportionate to the normal funding for the Welsh so hard to recover and get the town back on its feet over Assembly.It is 222 days since the Prime Minister promised the past three years. I know that she is meeting one of my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and my ministerial colleagues later this week, but as a Local Rhymney (Gerald Jones) that the money would be Government Minister I am also at her disposal to passported through to the local authorities from discuss this hugely important matter in her constituency. Westminster to Wales to pay for that. It is 97 days since the Prime Minister wrote to me to say that this was all going to be sorted out. It is 74 days since the Treasury [907073] Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need to said that it was going to sort this out. Yet we still have address the inherent unfairness in the operation of the not had a single penny. Can the Secretary of State prove housing infrastructure fund, which allocates 80% of its to be the best Minister of the lot and sort it out by the budget to London and the south-east and only 20% of end of today? it to the rest of us? Robert Jenrick: I am happy to take that up with my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Environment Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend and I have agreed on Secretary and revert to the hon. Gentleman with a plan. this point for some time. The housing infrastructure fund directs funding to those areas where there is the [907076] Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): The greatest affordability challenge. That is important, in Secretary of State has overseen a shocking betrayal of some respects, but any Government who want to level millions of people who are trapped in flats they cannot up must also direct infrastructure investment for housing sell because of cladding, irrespective of the height. to other parts of the country as well. I will certainly Mortgage companies are refusing to remortgage. bear that in mind as we design the successor to the Shared ownership tenants who own only 10% are being housing infrastructure fund later this year. forced to pay 100% of the cost. When is the Secretary of State going to get out of his ivory tower, stop talking [907079] Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): and start actually helping our constituents? Managing the coronavirus pandemic has already cost Cheshire West and Chester Council over £35 million. Robert Jenrick: I do not agree with that analysis of Despite Government support, which I welcome, it is the actions that we have taken as a Government. We are still £8 million behind on its current budget, which bringing forward the biggest change to building safety is already depleted by £330 million since 2010 by regulations in a generation. We have outlined plans for Government cuts. Will Ministers now commit to our £1.6 billion fund. Of course there is more that we providing the support to make good the £8 million could do. This is one of the most challenging and deficit that has been caused by the management of the difficult issues faced by the Government today, or indeed coronavirus crisis? any Government, and has built up over many generations, but we intend to tackle it and to provide support for Luke Hall: As I said, we have provided £4.8 billion to those in need. local authorities up and down the country to support them with the cost of the pandemic, and £3.1 billion [907084] Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) has been spent in addressing those pressures. The (Lab): Covid regulations prevent homeless shelters hon. Gentleman will be aware that his council has from opening, so will the Government extend the severe received £21 million in additional covid funding on top weather emergency protocol to cover all areas affected of the increase in core spending power of almost £18 million by any lockdown, both to protect homeless people and this year, which of course he supported. to prevent the virus from spreading? 609 Oral Answers 5 OCTOBER 2020 Oral Answers 610

Robert Jenrick: We are working with the chief medical Robert Jenrick: The hon. Member is entirely incorrect. officer’s team and Public Health England to prepare We are determined to build more homes in this country guidance as to how night shelters could be opened while protecting and enhancing standards, and absolutely safely and in what circumstances, but the hon. Gentleman nothing that we do will compromise building safety is obviously right that it is difficult to do so in a regulations. Indeed, quite the opposite. We are creating covid-compliant manner, so we are working with local the largest change to building safety standards in my councils to consider alternatives so that nobody should lifetime. be left on the streets in the coldest weather this winter. [907098] Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): In [907077] Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): My constituents ensuring that children with special educational needs in villages such as Burton Joyce and Stoke Bardolph and disabilities have the provision that they need understandably want to protect their green spaces and locally, the London Borough of Richmond is running a their village identity, which are part of what makes cumulative deficit of some £15 million in the high those places what they are. Can my right hon. Friend needs element of its dedicated schools budget, putting confirm that the Government’sproposed planning reforms wider council finances and services at risk. Will the will ensure that local people are empowered to decide Secretary of State agree to meet me, representatives of on the shape of their community? the council and the Department for Education to find a workable solution to this untenable situation? Our Robert Jenrick: I can certainly confirm that. We want discussions with the DFE have proved fruitless so far. to ensure that the green belt is protected so that there are beautiful green spaces for our constituents to enjoy and the identity of villages and communities such as Luke Hall: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Of those that my hon. Friend represents is protected and course she is right that the dedicated schools grant is preserved for future generations. administered by the DFE, which is responsible for its amount and allocation, but we are certainly working [907088] Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) [V]: closely with the DFE, the Chartered Institute of Public John Wheatley’s Housing (Financial Provisions) Act 1924 Finance and Accountancy and the sector to understand transformed municipal housing not simply for Scotland what more can be done to mitigate the immediate risks. but for the UK. A century on, that legacy has been I am personally very happy to meet her and her council tarnished by Tory policies and is now threatened by the to have a discussion about what more can be done. United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. mentioned. Will the Secretary of State guarantee not to Members participating in this item of business and the reduce Scottish standards, given the understandable safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am fears that arise as a result of Grenfell and other Tory suspending the House for three minutes. cutbacks, or will the lesson be, as with other Red Clydesiders like John Wheatley, that only an independent Scottish Parliament can protect the rights of Scottish 3.32 pm people? Sitting suspended. 611 5 OCTOBER 2020 612

Speaker’s Statement CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office Prosecutions Mr Speaker: Before I call Kevan Jones to ask his urgent question, I wish to make a short statement about the sub judice resolution. I have been advised that the 3.36 pm 44 cases referred to in the urgent question are formally Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab) (Urgent still the subject of active legal appeal proceedings. Because Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Business, there is little risk of prejudice now that it is known that Energy and Industrial Strategy if he will make a statement the appeals will not be contested, I am exercising the on the 44 Post Office prosecutions overturned by the CCRC. discretion given to the Chair in respect of the resolution on matters sub judice to allow exchanges today by The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, waiving sub judice in respect of these cases. All Members Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): I appreciate should, however, be mindful that some cases remain the urgent question. The Government recognise that contested or may be the subject of future legal proceedings the Horizon dispute has had a hugely damaging effect and should be cautious in making reference to individual on the lives of affected postmasters and their families, cases. and its repercussions are still being felt today. I have spoken to a number of postmasters who have been affected by this ordeal. On 2 October, the Post Office formally responded to the Court of Appeal and Southwark Crown court regarding convicted postmasters whose cases were referred by the Criminal Cases Review Commission. The Post Office has stated that it will not oppose 44 out of the 47 cases. The Post Office also sincerely apologised to postmasters for historical failings and underlined its commitment to delivering a fundamental review of the businesses and to resetting its relationship with postmasters, to ensure that this never happens again. This decision by the Post Office is an important milestone for postmasters whose convictions are part of this appeals process. Friday’s announcement was not, however, the end of that process. It is now for the courts to decide whether the convictions should be overturned. It would not therefore be appropriate for the Government to comment on these cases until that process is complete. The Post Office continues to co-operate fully with the CCRCand is in the process of reviewing about 900 historical prosecutions. Should it find any new information that may cast doubt on the safety of a conviction, it has confirmed that it will disclose that information to the person who is convicted. We will continue to monitor the work of the Post Office closely. In addition, I am pleased that the Government last week launched an inquiry, chaired by retired High Court judge Sir Wyn Williams, which will gather relevant available evidence to provide a public summary of the failings that occurred in relation to Horizon and assess whether lessons have been learned and concrete changes have taken place, or at least are under way, at the Post Office.

Mr Kevan Jones: I had high hopes for the Minister when he was appointed, but unfortunately he is reverting to type, like all his predecessors I have had to deal with over the last eight years. The hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), Lord Arbuthnot and I have been campaigning on this issue for nearly nine years, and I know that many other Members across the House have individual cases and have been involved in this. It is six years since the three of us met the CCRC, and I am pleased that Friday’s announcement made it clear that the Post Office would not pursue 44 of the cases. But those are simple words, and they belie the agony and torment of these individuals and of hundreds of other individuals who have lost their livelihoods, their good names and, in some cases, their freedom. In other cases, people have lost their lives. 613 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 5 OCTOBER 2020 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 614 Prosecutions Prosecutions [Mr Kevan Jones] believe this is the inquiry—albeit on a non-statutory basis—that will actually get the answers, and do it in a I am sorry, Minister, but what you have said today is quick way that hopefully satisfies the sub-postmasters not good enough. I cannot get over the fact that this and gets the answers they want. scandal—that is what it is—is still being treated as somehow an issue of the Post Office. The Government Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): Almost 20 years ago, are the single shareholder in the Post Office; they are Telford resident Tracy Felstead—then a 19-year-old the ones who can actually make some changes, so I post office clerk—was wrongly convicted and jailed would like to ask them some direct questions. because of a glitch in the Post Office computer system. First, as the single shareholder, were the Government Last week, the Post Office finally conceded defeat in the involved in the decision not to take forward these long-running battle between David and Goliath. How prosecutions, in the same way they were involved with did a respectable organisation such as the Post Office, a the £100 million they spent in defending the civil case major software company such as for Fujitsu, the great last year? Secondly, in terms of the convictions that and the good in the civil service, and Ministers from all have been overturned, the Minister said in June that parties fall prey to groupthink on such a grand scale, so there would be a process in place for compensation. that, despite this computer error occurring across the Will he announce a compensation process, or will these country, it was assumed that the only possible explanation people have to pursue cases through the court for was that all sub-postmasters affected were dishonest? compensation? Can I also ask where we are at with the What action will my hon. Friend take to ensure the Post historic compensation process? I understand that Office and Fujitsu are properly held to account, and 2,000 claims have been made, but not a penny has yet will he commit to determining who knew what and been paid out. when during this shameful saga? Finally, can I put this issue to the Minister? I am sorry, but the review he has announced is not good Paul Scully: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that enough. It may have a retired judge at its head, but he we need to get to the bottom of who knew what and does not have the powers to summon witnesses and when. That is why I am determined that, under Sir Wyn cross-examine them. A full public inquiry is needed. Williams’ chairmanship, we can seek evidence to Without that, we will not get to the truth of what is, as I complement what is already available from Mr Justice have already said, a national scandal. Fraser’s findings by speaking to the Post Office and Fujitsu, who have agreed to comply fully with this inquiry. I also hope that sub-postmasters will, through Paul Scully: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for conversation with Sir Wyn Williams, agree to get involved those points, and I will try to deal with them directly. so that they can share their evidence and stories and so The decision to prosecute postmasters was an operational that we can get to the bottom of this, exactly as my hon. matter for the Post Office, and the Government are not Friend says. involved in operational decisions. However, in hindsight, knowing what we know now, it is clear that different Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab) conclusions could and should have been reached by the [V]: The Post Office Horizon scandal may well be the Post Office, and that is why the inquiry is there to look largest miscarriage of justice in our history, with at the lessons. 900 prosecutions, innocent people bankrupted and The right hon. Gentleman asked about a route for imprisoned, careers ruined, families destroyed, reputations compensation, should postmasters who have been convicted smashed and lives lost. I pay tribute to the Justice For have their convictions overturned. There are processes Subpostmasters Alliance and all who campaigned with in place for them to receive compensation if appropriate, them, including Members on all sides of the House, and and that includes a statutory scheme under section 133 particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for North of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. Durham (Mr Jones), who secured this urgent question. In terms of the latest update on the historical shortfall For decades, the Post Office denied all wrongdoing, scheme, the Post Office launched the scheme on 1 May imposing huge stress and legal fees on the victims and to allow postmasters who were not part of the group spending tens of millions of pounds in the process. litigation to have issues with shortfalls recorded in Friday’s announcement is a welcome relief for so many, Horizon investigated and addressed. The window for but can the Minister tell us why, as its only shareholder, applications formally closed on 14 August, but late the Government allowed the Post Office to continue to applications are being considered by the Post Office on oppose the appeals for so long? Far from it being merely a case-by-case basis. There have been over 2,200 claims, an operational matter, as the Minister has said, will he and the independent panel advising the Post Office on admit that this represents a gross failure of oversight, the scheme is now assessing those. and will he tell us how much this has cost the Post The right hon. Gentleman talked about the inquiry. Office and, ultimately, the taxpayer? What is the estimated A judge-led inquiry is very much what was asked for. cost of the compensation that will now need to be paid We have Sir Wyn Williams, a former judge, at the head to those prosecuted, and what of those who were pursued, of that. He will be an independent chair; he will be able harassed and bankrupted, but not ultimately prosecuted? to ask the questions, push back at the Government and It is right that the Government have finally announced the Post Office, and get evidence. The reason it is an a judge-led inquiry into this scandal, which Labour inquiry rather than a review is that, reflecting on the called for months ago, but despite this House having way its remit was worded, I have always wanted it to be expressed its concerns forcefully, the terms of reference a backward-looking review that enabled evidence to be deliberately exclude compensation. Will the Minister sought, rather than to be done on just a desktop basis. amend the terms of reference to include compensation We have clarified that in the written statement, and I and deliver true justice for the victims? 615 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 5 OCTOBER 2020 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 616 Prosecutions Prosecutions A miscarriage of justice on this scale undermines inquiry, this is the judge-led inquiry that has been asked confidence in the justice system. Is it right that the Post for, albeit on a non-statutory footing. It is judge-led and Office has the power of independent prosecution, and is it is backward looking, in terms of taking evidence the Minister reviewing it? The victims need justice, not from all those involved. When the hon. Lady sees the more unanswered questions. The taxpayer needs to findings at the end, I hope she will see that, although know just how much this failure of oversight has, and perhaps not everybody will get everything they want, will, cost. Finally, the Government need to take we will get answers about who knew what, when. responsibility for this debacle and ensure nothing like it can ever happen again. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con) [V]: May I congratulate the right hon. Member for Paul Scully: I thank the hon. Lady for her question— North Durham (Mr Jones) on securing this urgent there were a number of questions in that. In terms of question? The Minister is well aware of my long-term the Government’s involvement, as I say, the Post Office’s interest in this topic, which has been a running sore for decisions are operational decisions for it and its board. far too long. How confident is he that the review that he What happened when—whether there was any Government announced last week will gain the support and participation involvement in terms of the Government shareholder, of all the stakeholders involved in this issue, and will it the board’s appointee, as well as the Post Office—will be able to hold to account and hold responsible those come up in the independent inquiry, and it is right that who allowed this gross miscarriage of justice to occur? they are questioned so that we find out what happened If it cannot do the first of those, what confidence can he and when. have that it will ensure that this intolerable situation will On the issue of compensation, if the sub-postmasters never ever be repeated? get involved in this inquiry and share their evidence, they will be able to share their stories and the losses that they have made, both directly and indirectly. However, Paul Scully: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly an inquiry cannot direct compensation; ultimately, that good point. It is important, first, that Sir Wyn Williams has to be done through the courts. engages with the sub-postmasters, led by Alan Bates, as part of the group litigation, to explain how he intends Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): It is to investigate and take evidence, and I hope that they clearly not this very good Minister’s fault, but it is clear, would therefore engage. I have talked about the fact that is it not, that a monstrous injustice by the state has been the Post Office and Fujitsu are ready to comply fully visited upon these poor postmasters and postmistresses, with the investigation, but if there are important people leaving us all, I would hope, extremely uneasy. By with important evidence that is not coming out, for refusing to allow the inquiry even to consider the whatever reason, there are mechanisms available to the compensation that they should be given, are not the chairman, Sir Wyn Williams, to look at that further and Government, who own, fund and direct the Post Office, to re-evaluate. in danger of making an already truly dreadful situation even worse? Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): Two post offices in my constituency are threatened with closure because Paul Scully: I thank my right hon. Friend for those of the difficulty of recruiting new sub-postmasters or personal comments. We are constituency MPs as well, sub-postmistresses. What impact does the Minister think so we can all, I hope, share the horror when we hear the the appalling case of Horizon has had on recruitment? stories of those people, who could easily have been Is he anxious about the future of post offices, particularly constituents of mine. In terms of compensation, as I rural ones but even those in urban constituencies such say, there are avenues open to those who have been as mine? What is the Department doing to work with wrongfully prosecuted, there is reason for people to be the Post Office on this issue? able to talk about their losses, and it is then for Sir Wyn Williams to present his findings when he concludes the Paul Scully: Yes, I am anxious, because it is important independent inquiry. that we keep the network up at the target level we set of Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]: 11,500. The hon. Lady is right that some of the difficulty During this pandemic, the post office network has is due to the situation gone by; some of it is due to the shown what a valuable community asset it is. Cases ongoing complexity of the Horizon system and resource being reviewed in Scotland and the rest of the UK availability. I am glad that the chief executive, Nick should result in financial compensation to all those Read, comes from a business where he is used to dealing innocent people who suffered as a result of the Horizon with people as stakeholders, not just as employees, so scandal. I pay tribute to all who have worked for justice engaging in a more positive future relationship with in these cases. Will the Minister commit today to ensuring postmasters. She is right to talk about rural and urban that the costs do not put the post office network at areas. In London, although clearly we do not want to further financial risks? Also, does he still not understand lose post offices, it is relatively easy compared with that a non-statutory review is not an independent inquiry, some rural areas to get to the next post office, but that is as was promised by the Prime Minister? not an excuse to diminish the network in London.

Paul Scully: In terms of the post office network, it is Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) up to the Post Office to work out how best to compensate (Con): In his previous response, the Minister said he is people, and it will be looking at that in due course. We anxious about the future of the network. I welcome the will continue to work with the new chief executive, Nick statement that the Post Office wants to reset the relationship Read, who is looking to put the future relationship with with sub-postmasters, but if he is anxious, what measures postmasters on a sure footing. In terms of an independent is he going to take to make sure that that actually 617 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 5 OCTOBER 2020 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 618 Prosecutions Prosecutions [Caroline Nokes] and get answers. I want everyone, including people at the Post Office who were involved and are now no happens? He says that he expects compensation from longer employed there, to engage in the process. the Post Office “in due course”, but will he put a timescale on that? Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): For years, pleas from MPs to address this scandal have been Paul Scully: On compensation, it depends on the ignored because of the Government’s cosy relationship situation of the people involved. Those who have been with the Post Office. My constituents Kevin and Julie wrongfully convicted have recourse through the courts. Carter and Dionne Andrew, like hundreds of others, I have regular contact with Nick Read, the chief executive, have had to fight for justice every step of the way as and other members of the board to make sure that we they try to clear their names. They have lost more than look at post office closures as reported to me by MPs the Minister can ever comprehend. What protections and from updates, and increase and improve recruitment will the Government put in place so that never again of postmasters, which will be achieved through a better can powerful organisations behave in this way and use future relationship. the criminal courts with such unaccountability?

Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): Will Paul Scully: I am glad to report that the Post Office is the Minister join me in thanking all those at the Post not using private prosecutions any more—the Justice Office and Royal Mail who have kept us all going Committee met last week to talk about private throughout this crisis? As we know, a disproportionate prosecutions—but the hon. Member is absolutely right number are from BME communities, who have experienced to talk about her constituents and the losses they have such death and suffering, like my constituent Varchas suffered. I am glad that the independent inquiry will be Patel and his family. They are pleased that their appeal able to get to the bottom of that to make sure that it can is not being contested, but they wonder what action is never happen again. now being taken against those at the top—those in management and leadership positions in the Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): In my previous organisation—who presided over this scandal. Or are life, I remember collecting the mail from post office this algorithm-obsessed Government stuck in a “computer branches at the time the Horizon scandal was happening. says no” mode? I remember vividly the sub-postmasters and sub- postmistresses not being able to balance the tills at that Paul Scully: I can assure the hon. Lady that the time, and having the stress and anguish of that resting computer very much says yes, which is why we have over them. While it is absolutely right that we recognise launched an independent inquiry. the hole the Post Office is in, it is worth remembering that at its heart—its very core—is not some mythical Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): I bogeyman, but hard-working sub-postmasters and sub- have not yet had the chance in this place to congratulate postmistresses across the country.The reputational damage my constituency neighbour and former boss on his that has been done by the Horizon scandal threatens ministerial appointment. their very livelihoods, and we need to act on this now. With the traditional banking system closing many of I have met Carshalton and Wallington residents,including the branches in rural communities, what can the Nirmala Fatania, who have been affected by the Horizon Department do to ensure that post office branches have scandal and whose lives have been turned upside down. a workable banking system and can offer other services Will my hon. Friend assure me that the Post Office will to make these vital rural services more viable? co-operate fully with the inquiry, that we will learn the necessary lessons, and that we will make sure that nothing like this ever happens again? Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend for that really important point. It is important to remember what a vital service the post office is for all of us, and we must Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend—I did not ask make sure that while we are looking backwards at the him to say what he did, but it is gratefully received and situation with sub-postmasters, we do not threaten the he can come again. future viability of the network. On banking, we are All of us as constituency MPs hear from people like working with the Post Office as it introduces greater Nirmala Fatania. We are determined to get the answers services for various banks to expand the branches and through the independent inquiry, so that this can never the types of banks they can deal with in-house. happen again. Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind): Does my [V]: I would urge the 73 Scottish cases whose convictions hon. Friend accept that those present or former Post may be unsafe as a result of this injustice, which was Office officials who perpetrated this disaster and perpetuated overseen by consecutive Labour, Tory and Lib Dem the agony of the victims must be punished, not promoted, Ministers, to contact the Scottish Criminal Cases Review and shamed, rather than rewarded with honours, as I Commission as a matter of urgency. Will the Minister, believe happened in at least one prominent instance? with his predecessors, write a cross-party letter to the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance apologising for the Paul Scully: Yes, the Honours Committee and any parts they have played in this saga? future employers need to look at the background of any person involved in this. However, as I said, the inquiry is Paul Scully: I would echo the hon. Gentleman’s call independent, and I do not want to stamp my authority for people to make sure they are in touch if they believe on it. It is now for Sir Wyn Williams to question people their convictions are not safe, because the Post Office is 619 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 5 OCTOBER 2020 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 620 Prosecutions Prosecutions determined to make sure, as it looks back and reviews and ashes. Will the Minister make sure that these people those 900 prosecutions, that it will be in contact—it is get justice, because this was not done by machines or committed to being in contact itself—with anybody it computers; it was done and organised and managed by feels is part of the Horizon process. people, and they should be held to account? Does the Minister agree? Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): Last week, the Justice Committee, of which I am a member, published a Paul Scully: The brief answer is no in terms of the report into private prosecutions, which was prompted chairmanship; in terms of the Secretary of State and by the Horizon scandal. Does my hon. Friend agree sackcloth and ashes, I am the postal affairs Minister so with its recommendation that any organisation that I am the one who set up the inquiry and I am determined conducts a substantial number of private prosecutions that we get the answers the hon. Gentleman is seeking. should be required to meet the same standards of Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I, too, put on regulation, accountability and transparency as public record my thanks to our community post offices; they prosecutors, and will he discuss that with the Lord have provided a vital lifeline during this pandemic in my Chancellor as a matter of urgency? villages and towns in Colne Valley. In terms of the inquiry, can the Minister assure me that my constituent, Paul Scully: I thank my hon. Friend for that, and as I Maria, who is one of the victims of this scandal, and all have said, I pay tribute to the work that the Committee the other victims will be able to give evidence so that has done. The Government will certainly consider the they will be heard, and that we will get some conclusion very many sensible points that have been raised in the to this inquiry within the next year? report, and we will report back in due course. Paul Scully: It is up to Sir Wyn Williams how he Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: My wants to frame that inquiry, but it is absolutely set up constituent Della Robinson was formerly a local sub- for sub-postmasters to have their voices heard and to postmistress in Dukinfield, and she lost almost everything report back within about a year. in this scandal, including her reputation. I welcome the latest announcement, but when did the Minister know Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) that the Post Office would not oppose the appeals, what (SNP) [V]: I thank the right hon. Member for North discussions did he have with Post Office officials and Durham (Mr Jones) and agree with what he said. This did they discuss the amount this would cost the Post has been a dreadful affair during which neither the Post Office and, ultimately, taxpayers? Office nor the Government have covered themselves in glory. A constituent of mine was sent to prison as a Paul Scully: We discuss that with the Post Office result of Horizon issues and was forced to sell their regularly, and it is the Post Office’s decision not to family home, leading to the breakdown of their marriage, oppose the appeals. This is clearly part of the recognition yet in a letter to me the Government said they had no that it got things wrong so much over a period of time. I plans to prosecute anyone as a number of decision am glad that this change of approach is something that makers were involved. My constituent’s life is in tatters; can get to the bottom of sub-postmasters’ questions who is going to be held responsible? and clearly right the wrongs of the past. Paul Scully: On who is held responsible, let us wait Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): My father used to for the response from Sir Wyn Williams and the independent be a postman, and I know the vital role that postmasters inquiry. I know that, from Justice Fraser’s findings, play in serving many of our communities, especially in some names have been recommended to the Crown rural areas such as High Peak, but the way that many of Prosecution Service for it to discuss and investigate. them have been treated during this scandal is appalling. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Like other Members Can the Minister assure me that he will do everything across the House, I have constituents whose lives have he can to make certain the Post Office keeps to the been destroyed by this scandal, and I welcome the commitments it has now made, and that we learn the establishment of the inquiry. Can the Minister assure lessons so that something like this can never happen me that any recommendations that emerge from it will again? be acted on promptly, and will he undertake immediately to speak to senior management at the Post Office to Paul Scully: My uncle was a sub-postmaster in a establish whether structures are now in place to ensure rural area, and I saw the way he worked; that predated that nothing like this could happen in the interim? Horizon. We have watched people like him and my hon. Friend’s father work so hard in their communities, and Paul Scully: Absolutely: I want to ensure this is dealt the last thing they should expect is the scandal that has with in a timely fashion, and we will take all the befallen some of these individuals. We must make sure recommendations very seriously, because we want to that through this independent inquiry we get the answers get to the bottom of this. I continue to work with, and so it can never happen again. speak to, Nick Read, the chief executive, and listen to him and push him to ensure that the lessons have been Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: learned and the structures are in place. Is the Minister aware that I chair the all-party miscarriages of justice group? I have never seen anything as awful as Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): Campaigners have labelled this: so many people’slives made a misery; their reputations the review into the Post Office as a whitewash and a ruined; their whole future and their families broken up. betrayal, and instead are calling for a full independent This is so important that I would have expected today at inquiry with statutory powers, as agreed by the Prime least the Secretary of State on his knees in sackcloth Minister in response to my question to him in February, 621 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 5 OCTOBER 2020 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 622 Prosecutions Prosecutions [Kate Osborne] Paul Scully: Yes, I can assure my hon. Friend that it will not be a whitewash. I am determined to get the so will the Minister confirm that statutory powers will answers we need from the Post Office and Fujitsu and, be given to the inquiry, meaning that full accounts from indeed, from Government in terms of our role. We want former sub-postmasters will be heard as evidence and to hear from sub-postmasters about their stories, their witnesses will be cross-examined, to ensure that proper evidence and their losses. It is now for Sir Wyn Williams, justice is served? a retired judge, to get to the bottom of it and to get those questions answered. Paul Scully: The Prime Minister promised an independent inquiry, and that is what we have announced. We want Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): People have had their to make sure that postmasters engage with it. The Post reputations trashed. They have been made bankrupt. Office and Fujitsu have also said they will engage with Others have gone to prison. What is the Minister doing it. It is now for Sir Wyn Williams to instigate the inquiry to ensure that they are assisted while we wait for this and get it under way, and he can always report back if inquiry? What we do not need is justice delayed and he finds he is not getting the support he needs. justice denied. We need action now, so what is he doing to assist those who are in real difficulties? Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): When Paul Scully: What I am doing is announcing the you have caught and removed the fox from the henhouse, inquiry; one of the big reasons I did not want it to be a it is never a good idea to put it back in there to statutory inquiry, although I can understand the impetus, compensate the rest of the chickens. We did exactly that is that statutory inquiries can last for decades sometimes with Lloyds, and I fear we are doing exactly that with and cause even more expense. In this way, we can get the the Post Office.There is no obvious means of compensation answers within a year, I hope, so that we can put this for those with criminal convictions. The jury is out on issue to bed and get the answers that people want. the historic shortfall scheme, and those who are employed as sub-postmasters through McColl’s or the Co-op have Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): no direct means of compensation. Will my hon. Friend The Minister is aware of the Justice Committee’s report confirm that the Government are committed to making on this matter. He will know that any wrongful conviction sure that every single person who was disadvantaged is potentially undermines the whole of the justice system. fairly compensated? Rather than waiting a year for the outcome of this review, will he meet urgently with the Attorney General, Paul Scully: There is a separate director within Post my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Office Ltd who is looking specifically at the historic Fareham (Suella Braverman), to discuss the specific shortfall scheme to make sure that the rest of Post recommendations that the Committee makes in its report Office Ltd has the capacity to reset its relationship with to ensure that safeguards are applied? Through that, we postmasters, but we will of course look at Sir Wyn can ensure that the standards applied by those who have Williams’s findings. Postmasters who have had wrongful the power to bring private prosecutions are, as my hon. convictions have other methods of compensation, as I Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Rob Butler) said, outlined in my original statement. never less than those applied by the Crown Prosecution Service.Being judge,jury,investigator and victim potentially creates very great conflicts of interest. Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab) [V]: My constituent Tracy Major was falsely Paul Scully: I pay tribute to the Chairman of the accused of stealing £24,000 from Anlaby Park post Justice Committee for all the work he has done and for office. She was innocent. She has had her reputation the report the Committee published last week. I am destroyed, she has suffered unimaginable stress, and she always happy to speak to the Attorney General, and I is also looking at losing more than £150,000. She has will definitely take consideration in due course of that received only £20,000 in compensation. How will the report. Government and the Post Office ensure she has the justice she deserves? Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): I welcome the progress that we have made thus far in Paul Scully: If the hon. Lady’s constituent was in the getting at least an element of judicial oversight of this group litigation, the compensation was settled in a full inquiry. Like others, I remain sceptical about whether it and final settlement that was agreed with the Post will be sufficient, but to proceed on the basis that it is, Office. The Post Office has said it will not contest the and that the undertakings that the Minister has given wrongful convictions. We will see what happens in the the House today are sufficient to do the job, will he now courts, but anybody who has been wrongfully convicted look at the damage that has been done to the availability who was not part of that group litigation will have other of postmasters as a whole across the whole of the methods of returning to compensation. country? Communities such as mine rely on them very heavily, and it is becoming more and more difficult with every month that passes to fill those very important Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) [V]: Sub-postmasters positions. often operate in very small communities where everybody knows each other. This has been an incredibly painful Paul Scully: I absolutely see the right hon. Gentleman’s experience for them, their families and their communities. point. This may well be a contributing factor, but there I welcome the establishment of the inquiry, but will the are plenty of other factors that make it difficult to Minister please assure us that it will not be a whitewash? recruit postmasters, particularly in areas such as his. Many sub-postmasters in my constituency are anxious However, we will do whatever we can to fill those places to know that. and keep that network up. 623 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 5 OCTOBER 2020 CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office 624 Prosecutions Prosecutions Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): The Horizon powers to fully get to the bottom of this mess. Will the litigation process has caused immeasurable financial Minister at least commit to returning to this House to and emotional suffering and distress to the sub-postmasters set out in full both the compensation arrangements who have been affected, including some of my constituents. and any financial implications for the future of the Will my hon. Friend commit to studying whatever Post Office? recommendations may come forward from the inquiry to ensure that this never happens again? Paul Scully: Let us see what the result is from Sir Wyn Williams’ investigations and inquiry in the first place. Paul Scully: Yes—one of the reasons for making it a Compensation is a matter for the Post Office, which has non-statutory inquiry is so that we can get the answers talked about the historical shortfall scheme. It wants to quickly, study them, put things in place, and ensure that ensure that people who are wrongfully convicted are the Post Office has put the structures in place to ensure compensated accordingly. that it never happens again. We can keep its feet to the fire to make that work. PeterGibson(Darlington)(Con):IwelcometheMinister’s decision to seek justice for sub-postmasters. What steps Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): The Communication is he taking to support victims of this scandal now, and Workers Union has been campaigning on this issue for to ensure that such mistakes never happen again? a long time. I join others in paying tribute to the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for getting Paul Scully: On what we can do, we can look for this urgent question. The inquiry that the Minister has those answers now—not in five or 10 years’ time. These set up seems to lack statutory powers. Will he comment people have suffered enough. They need answers, and on that? I know that he has made other comments on they need to be able to draw a line under the stigma that that matter. Also, how much taxpayers’ money was has been attached to so many.That is why the independent spent opposing appeals on the sub-postmaster scandal? inquiry needs to report back, hopefully within around a year, to be able to draw that line for them. Paul Scully: On a statutory inquiry, as I have said in a number of answers, I want to ensure that we can get the Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and answers quickly, rather than having people, as I described Strathspey) (SNP) [V]: The Minister says he does not in a previous answer, lawyering up, which adds expense want a statutory inquiry. I think many of those affected and time for the postmasters who have been through so will be sceptical about his reasons for that. Hundreds of much. I deal with the CWU on a regular basis. In terms people have been wrongly sued and pursued, with many of taxpayers’ money, the Post Office has funded the imprisoned and many more losing their businesses and prosecutions through its own profits. livelihoods. His Government and previous Governments have been central to an epic scandal. The Prime Minister Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): Sometimes promised a full independent inquiry. Why is that promise when we hear the words “lessons learned” it can sound now being broken, like so many others by his Government? a little glib, if not a little trite. Given the extent and the depth of the harm caused by this scandal, can the Minister Paul Scully: The inquiry is both independent and in assure me and the House that we will get to the very full. It is one thing the Prime Minister promised, and it bottom of what has gone wrong? is one thing we have delivered. It has taken too long to get there, but we will get those answers in a few short Paul Scully: Nobody but nobody, least of all me, can months. fail to be appalled by what we read about some of the situations, and some of the hardship and worse that Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. many constituents have been through. That is why I am Members participating in this item of business and the determined to listen to the evidence to ensure that we safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am get those answers, so that it can never happen again. suspending the House for three minutes.

Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): The truth is that Ministers have set up a half-baked inquiry 4.20 pm in response to this extraordinary scandal, without the Sitting suspended. 625 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 626

Covid-19 Update that it has not impacted the basis on which decisions about local action were taken last week. Nevertheless, Mr Speaker: Before we proceed with the Secretary of this is a serious issue that is been investigated fully. I State’s statement, I remind hon. Members that the thank Public Health England and NHS Test and Trace, conduct of another Member should not, other than by which have been working together at speed to resolve a substantive motion, be criticised on the Floor of the this issue. I thank everyone for their hard work over the House. weekend. This incident should never have happened, but the team have acted swiftly to minimise its impact. 4.23 pm It is now critical that we work together to put the situation right and make sure that it never happens again. The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock): With permission, I would like to make Another important area of our coronavirus battle a statement on coronavirus. The virus is spreading, both plan is treatments. As the House knows, the only treatment here and overseas. In the past week, over 450,000 people known to work against coronavirus was discovered here tested positive for coronavirus in Europe, almost double in the UK. As we leave the EU, I want to use the the number of cases a month ago. Here in the UK, the opportunity to improve how quickly we get new drugs number of hospital admissions is now at its highest to patients, so the UK is joining Canada, the United since mid-June. Last week, the Office for National States, Australia, Switzerland and Singapore in Project Statistics said that while the rate of increase may be Orbis, which will allow international regulators to work falling, the number of cases is still rising. Yesterday, together to review and approve the next generation of there were 12,594 new positive cases. The rise is more cancer treatments faster. It will mean that pharmaceutical localised than first time around, with cases rising particularly companies can submit treatments to be reviewed by sharply in the north-east and the north-west of England, several countries at the same time, meaning that we can and in parts of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. co-operate with the best medical regulators in the world Now more than ever, with winter ahead, we must all and make approvals quicker so that we can get patients remain vigilant and get the virus under control. the fastest possible access to new drugs. It is an exciting Let me turn to the operational issues on data publication, development. We will join the scheme fully on 1 January, the future plans for medicine licensing and, of course, after the end of the transition period, because we will the announcement of 40 hospitals made by the Prime stop at nothing to bring faster access to life-saving Minister on Friday night. I wish to take the first available treatments on the NHS. opportunity to set out to the House the technical issue relating to case uploads that was discovered by Public We are investing in hospitals, too. Two weeks ago, I Health England on Friday evening. It is an ongoing announced to the House that we are investing an extra incident and I come to the House straight from an £150 million in expanding capacity in urgent and emergency operational update from my officials. care so that hospitals have the space to continue to treat patients safely in the pandemic. I am delighted that on On Friday night, Public Health England identified Friday my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister set out that over the previous eight days, 15,841 positive test the 40 hospitals we will build by 2030, as part of a results were not included in the reported daily cases. package worth £3.7 billion, with eight further new This was due to a failure in the automated transfer of schemes, including mental health facilities, invited to files from the labs to PHE’s data systems. I reassure bid for future funding and also to be built by 2030. This everyone that every single person who tested positive is the biggest hospital building programme in a generation, was told that result in the normal way and in the normal and the investment comes on top of an extra £33.9 billion timeframe. They were told that they needed to self-isolate, a year that the Government will be providing to the which is now required by law. However, the positive test NHS by 2023-24. We passed that into law right at the results were not reported in the public data and were start of this Parliament, and the 40 new hospitals across not transferred to the contact tracing system. England will support our mission to level up our NHS I thank colleagues who have been working since late so that even more people have top-class healthcare on Friday night and throughout the weekend to resolve services in their local area, and so that we can protect this problem. I wish to set out the steps we have taken. the NHS long into the future. First, contact tracing of the relevant cases began first thing on Saturday. We brought in 6,500 hours of extra Finally, it is critical that our rules are clear at local contact tracing over the weekend. I can report to the level so that the public can be certain of what they need House that, as of 9 am today, 51% of the cases have to do to suppress this virus, and I will update the House now been contacted a second time for contact tracing in due course on what action the Government are purposes. I reassure the House that outbreak control in taking, so that we can have more consistent approaches care homes, schools and hospitals has not been directly to levels of local action, working with our colleagues in affected because dealing with outbreaks in those settings local government. For now, it is essential that people does not primarily rely on this particular PHE system. follow the guidance in their local area, and if they need Secondly, the number of cases did not flow through to check the rules, they can check on their local authority to the dashboards that we use for both internal and website. History shows us that the battle against any external monitoring of the epidemic. Over the weekend, pandemic is never quick and never easy. It requires we updated the public dashboard, and this morning the making major sacrifices and difficult choices. I know Joint Biosecurity Centre presented to me its updated that this has been a tough year for so many, but we are analysis of the epidemic based on the new figures. The asking people to persevere as winter draws in, because chief medical officer’s analysis is that our assessment of the only safe path is to suppress the virus, protecting the the disease and its impact has not substantially changed economy, education and the NHS, until a vaccine can as a result of the new data, and the JBC has confirmed make us safe. I commend this statement to the House. 627 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 628

4.31 pm Bury, Hyndburn, Burnley, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle have seen increases as a result of this data. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): I Will those areas and others under restrictions now be thank the Secretary of State for giving me advance sight given extra help and resources to battle the virus? of his statement. In recent weeks, we have had people Infection rates in other parts of the country that are not being told to travel hundreds of miles for a test; we have under restrictions, such as Newark and Sherwood, are had hundreds of children out of school unable to get a climbing higher with this new data, so should we expect test; we have had tracers sitting idle, watching Netflix; more local restrictions this week? and we have had care home tests taking days to be processed. Yesterday, we had a Health Minister saying The Secretary of State says that he is set to bring in a that this could be a moment of national pride like the new three-tiered system to replace the confusing network Olympics, and we have had a Prime Minister in a that is in place. Will he update the House on what the complete muddle over the rules. Now, at one of the new criteria will be for an area going into restriction most crucial points in this pandemic, we learn that and leaving restriction? So far, it has been a bit like almost 16,000 positive cases went unreported for a “Hotel California”—you can check out, but you can week. That means that as many as 48,000 contacts have never leave. Families deserve answers. not been traced and are not isolating. Those thousands The Prime Minister told the House on 20 May that of people, blissfully unaware that they have been exposed we would have a “world-beating” system in place by to covid, are potentially spreading this deadly virus at a June. It is now October. The system is neither competent time when hospital admissions are increasing and we nor improving. Problems are getting worse. The are in the second wave. Government are failing on the basics. When will they This is not just a shambles; it so much worse than finally fix this mess? that. It gives me no comfort to say it, but it is putting lives at risk, and the Secretary of State should apologise Matt Hancock: I will start by answering a couple of when he responds. No doubt he will complain about my factual questions. As I said in my statement, as of 9 am tone, or say that he will not have any divisive talk, but this morning, 51% of these cases have been contacted people want answers. He has just said that over half the by the contact tracing system, and their contacts are 16,000 people have been spoken to by tracers, and they contacted immediately after the initial contact— have presumably handed over their contacts, but when concurrently. will the other 49% be spoken to by contact tracers? How The hon. Gentleman asked about the tiering system. many of the contacts have now been traced and spoken Absolutely, extra support will go to areas where there is to, and how many are isolating? Why did nobody notice an increased number of cases. He asked about the this issue until Friday night? Why did it take until criteria in the proposed approach. Of course, we cannot 9.30 on Sunday evening for this to become public? The have fixed and specific criteria, because it depends on Prime Minister was clearly aware of the problem, because the nature of the outbreak. For instance, if there was an he said on “The Andrew Marr Show” yesterday morning outbreak in one individual employer, we would not that there had been a necessarily put the whole local area into local action. “failure in the counting system, which has now been rectified”. We try to make the intervention as targeted and as Speed is of the essence when dealing with a pandemic, localised as possible, but sometimes it needs to be so when were local directors of public health informed? broad, as it is in the north-west and across large parts of The Secretary of State says that this is an ongoing issue, the north-east. For example, the intervention in the so it has not been rectified, as the Prime Minister said west midlands covers four of the seven council areas of on “Marr”. When will it be fully resolved? the west midlands, but not the other three, because that Public Health England sources say that they report follows the data. the data when they get the data from test and trace. Can The hon. Gentleman asked about the particular IT the Secretary of State confirm that the data could not system in question. The problem emerged in a PHE be handed over to PHE because of the size of the Excel legacy system. We had already decided in July to replace spreadsheet files? Was this an issue at one particular this system, and I commissioned a new data system to Lighthouse lab, or across all the Lighthouse labs? Why replace the legacy one. Contracts were awarded in August, are critical databases in a national pandemic being and the work on the upgrade is already under way. hosted on Excel spreadsheets? Why are they not using While, of course, we have to solve the problem immediately, specialist database software? The right hon. Gentleman we also need to ensure that we upgrade this system, and likes to boast of his background in software development, we have already put in place the contracts to ensure that so did he sign off this system? Was he aware of it? The that happens. In the meantime, it is critical that we work Department of Health and Social Care is responsible together to fix these issues, which were identified by for the integrity of pillar 2 testing data. His Department PHE staff working hard late on Friday night. I want to is the data controller, so he is ultimately responsible for thank the PHE staff who did so much work to resolve this mess. It is a mess made up of fragmented systems this issue over the weekend. passing data back and forth between his Department, In answer to the hon. Gentleman’s final question, we PHE and outsourcing companies such as Serco and need to ensure that we contact trace all those cases as Deloitte, and it is costing us £12 billion. Surely now is soon as possible. In two days, we managed to get to the time not to renew Serco’s contract and instead give 51% of them, and that work is ongoing. responsibility and resources to NHS labs and local public health teams to deliver testing and tracing. Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): The Health The Secretary of State says that the data does not Secretary deserves enormous credit for the expansion of impact decisions that have been made about local testing capacity that he has personally championed, but restrictions, but areas already under restrictions such as is not the underlying problem that the Lighthouse 629 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 630

[Jeremy Hunt] Matt Hancock: On the core of the hon. Lady’s point, the assessment of the epidemic on the basis of the laboratories have been, and will continue to be,overwhelmed updated data is core to our approach to tackling by demand? Do we not need to think about the structures the epidemic. The chief medical officer has analysed the and, in particular, whether the responsibility for NHS new data, which we have now published—on staff testing and care home staff testing should be coronavirus.data.gov.uk we can see the data, and that is moved to hospital laboratories and universities, in the on the corrected basis. Based on Joint Biosecurity Centre way that was advocated this morning by Sir David analysis, the CMO’s advice is that the assessment of the Nicholson, the former chief executive of the NHS? disease and its impact have not substantially changed. Sometimes it is tempting to think that, by dealing with That is because the just under 16,000 cases were essentially the latest problem, we will solve the whole problem, but evenly spread, so it has not changed the shape of the ahead of winter and the second wave, we need to think epidemic. It has changed the level, in terms of where we about whether these structures are right for what we are finding the epidemic and in what sorts of groups. have to deal with. The hon. Lady asks how many contacts have been contacted, as opposed to how many of the primary Matt Hancock: The expansion of the NHS testing is, index cases. As I said, that is happening concurrently, so of course, critical as well. The system in question, where as soon as the index case has been contacted by Test the problem was over this weekend, brings together the and Trace and interviewed, the contacts are immediately data both from the NHS systems and from the so-called contacted. As I said, we have got through 51% of the pillar 2 systems. The challenge was in a system that backlog over the weekend, and we have brought in more integrates the two, rather than just on one side or the resources to complete that task. other, but my right hon. Friend makes a broader point, which is that as we expand the NHS’s capacity as part Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): My right hon. of the overall expansion of testing, we have to ensure Friend and everyone in the House hopes that there will that we use that capacity to best effect. In many parts of be a safe and effective vaccine available during the the NHS, increasingly, it is NHS testing capacity that is months ahead, but the head of the vaccines taskforce used for NHS staff testing. That system works well, has said that she expects it to be available to only half of because the test is local and convenient, and we are the population, concentrating on the over-50s and the looking to expand in exactly the sort of direction that most vulnerable. Is that the Secretary of State’s he outlines. I urge colleagues away from trying to bifurcate understanding? What are the implications for the other between the two systems. Essentially, we have a whole half of the population? series of different ways to access a test, and we need to make sure that people get the tests that are easiest to Matt Hancock: This is a very important question. access for them as much as possible. The vaccines taskforce has done incredibly important work in supporting the scientific development and Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]: manufacture of vaccines and in procuring vaccines—six The delay in entering almost 16,000 covid cases into different types of vaccine—from around the world. The Government databases has resulted in last week’s case work of deploying a vaccine is for my Department, numbers being totally inaccurate. The Secretary of State working with the NHS and the armed forces, who are says that the updated statistics would not have led to helping enormously with the logistical challenge, and additional measures, but are there any new areas of we will take clinical advice on the deployment of the heightened concern? PHE has blamed the problem on vaccine from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and test result files being too big to load on to its central Immunisation. My right hon. Friend the Chair of the system. Was that, as has been suggested, due to the Science and Technology Committee will know that transfer of data between formats? If the underlying 10 days ago the JCVI published a draft prioritisation, issue was due to the rapidly rising number of positive and it will update that as more data becomes clear from cases, why was that not anticipated or identified sooner? the vaccine. That is the Government’s approach: to take Can he be sure that something like this cannot happen clinical advice from the JCVI. again? Just as importantly, this means that none of those Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): The cases was registered with the tracing system. While, as Secretary of State will know that south Manchester the Secretary of State says, people with a positive test now has some of the highest infection rates in the got their result and, we hope, self-isolated, they did not country, but the figures are skewed by the very high rate get direct advice and they did not give the details of among 17 to 21-year-olds. Many of those appear to be their contacts. From the Government’s data, people students who are confined to halls of residence, so the with covid report an average of three to four contacts spread of the virus ought to be contained. May I each, so that would represent 50,000 to 60,000 contacts therefore ask for an assurance from the Secretary of who were not identified and asked to isolate and therefore State that we will not have any extra local lockdown will have continued to spread the virus. While up to restrictions in Manchester as a result of figures that give 10 days have lapsed and the opportunity to prevent a misleading picture of the extent of the virus in the onward spread may have been missed, the Secretary of wider community? State mentions that 51% of cases have been contacted, but on what timescale does he hope to reach all the Matt Hancock: Yes. The hon. Member makes a really contacts of those cases? Given that only about 60% of important point. This is why I resist the temptation to community contacts in England are currently reached, set a simplistic threshold above which a certain level of will he involve local authority public health teams in action is taken. That is because there might be an what is now a massive contact-tracing operation? incident—I mentioned that there might be such an 631 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 632 incident in a workplace, for instance; there might also been delayed, including joint replacement surgery, which be one in a halls of residence—where we get a very high means that manypeople,including some of my constituents, number of cases, but if it is confined and not in the are living in severe pain while waiting for procedures. wider community we would not want to take action to Will he set out the NHS’s plan to make sure that people restrict the social activity of the wider community. That get this life-changing surgery as quickly as possible? has to be taken into account, along with the data on the Could some of the welcome additional resource that number of cases and the positivity, because the number has been announced be used for post-op rehabilitation? of tests that you put in affects that as well. We take all these things into account in asking both when an area Matt Hancock: The short answer is yes. My hon. needs to have more restrictions applied and when we Friend makes an important case. The restart of elective can take an area out of restrictions, which of course is operations in the NHS is now proceeding apace. Of so important for everybody living there. course, the more we can keep the virus under control, the easier that restart is. In any case, the NHS has done Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): a huge amount of work over the summer to try to Nobody can possibly doubt my right hon. Friend’s utter separate, as much as is possible, the NHS into “covid commitment to doing his very best in these circumstances, green” areas, where we have a high degree of confidence or indeed the good will and hard work of his officials, that there is no coronavirus, and “covid blue” areas, but this is another incident that further undermines where there may be, so that people can get the long-term public confidence in the delivery of the Government’s elective work done that is needed. That will include an covid response, and it is another example of where expansion of rehabilitation. She might have seen that logistics and planning have let us down. Why cannot the one of the 40 hospitals on the list that the Prime Minister Government learn from previous successes with the announced was the DNRC—the Defence and National Nightingale hospitals and personal protective equipment? Rehabilitation Centre— which is to be built just outside The military were brought in much more overtly to deal Loughborough. with the logistics, planning and delivery of those programmes, and they should be on test and trace Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]: as well. The majority of Greater Manchester has been under local restrictions for more than two months, yet we now Matt Hancock: Of course they are involved, but this have some of the highest rates in England. The test and specific issue was in a PHE legacy computer system that trace debacle once again shows that the national system we had already identified needed replacing; I had already is broken and that the Secretary of State’s measures are commissioned the replacement of it and that replacement not working. He knows that the Greater Manchester is currently being built. We knew that this was a system authorities are keen to adopt a more localised approach, that needed replacing. That work is under way, at the so if the newspaper reports are right that we are going same time as the remedial action to sort the problem to get a new tiered system, is this not the right time for more immediately. the Government to give local areas control over test and trace systems, supported by extra financial resources? Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: We have lost a vital week in the fight against the spread of Matt Hancock: I half agree with the hon. Gentleman; this virus in our country because of a problem with it is important that we put more testing resources into spreadsheets that the Health Secretary tells us was the areas where case levels are high, and it is very known about in July. We are paying £12 billion to these important that we continue to strengthen the local private companies to run this service, yet the Health engagement with the national system—I was talking to Secretary has told us there are no penalties to them for the Mayor of Greater Manchester about this only this poor performance. Who is going to get our money morning. The challenge is that we also need the scale of back, and who is going to take responsibility? Can the the national system, so that where there is an outbreak Health Secretary tell us: where on earth does the buck stop? we can bring huge amounts of resources to bear and make sure that we can really target the support, for Matt Hancock: Of course, I have come to this House instance, for contact tracing. So it is the combination of to be clear and transparent to it and to the nation as to the local and the national that will get us through this. the nature of this particular problem. It is wrong constantly to be picking on a small number of the many, many Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): Since last cogs in the wheel of this system, which was a Public Thursday and the Welsh Government’s local lockdown Health England legacy system—although that does not measures, half a million people in north Wales have not quite fit the hon. Lady’s narrative, it is the fact of the been allowed to cross often meaningless county council matter. I like her, and she and I have worked together in boundaries without a good reason to do so. That is the past, including on issues such as this. She is normally causing huge disruption to livelihoods and wellbeing, incredibly reasonable and sensible, and I would be so will my right hon. Friend outline his understanding happy to ensure that she gets a full briefing on this one of the scientific evidence for restrictions on travel such and to answer any further questions she has. as this?

Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): I Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend raises a very important thank my right hon. Friend, his Department and the question, which I know is exercising people who live in many thousands of people who have worked so hard north Wales and on the border. I am not going to throughout the pandemic to make sure that our NHS criticise the Welsh Government, with whom we work has not been overwhelmed, but an inevitable consequence closely, but what I will say is that, in England, when we of this is that a large number of elective operations have choose to bring in measures restricting travel, we do it 633 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 634

[Matt Hancock] Matt Hancock: That is exactly what we are doing— absolutely. For instance, this morning I also spoke to with strong guidance at the moment rather than within Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, about how we the law. That is partly because there are all sorts of continue to strengthen the join-up between the national reasons why people might need to undertake a journey, and local approaches. I entirely agree with the hon. so even where we advise people to minimise unnecessary Lady that that is incredibly important. travel, we do so with guidance and, in large part, people follow it. Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con): Until we get a vaccine, the House knows that it is about following the Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): The First rules of hands, face, space and get a test, but my right Minister said on Friday that work was under way to hon. Friend will also know that there are different types improve the interoperability of the two test and trace of test out there. Can he comment on the plans for apps. As they do not both work at the same time, as I future testing and on what updates there might be? We experienced for myself, I wonder whether the Secretary have heard talk of saliva testing, finger-prick testing or, of State can say a little bit more about how discussions possibly, that we may be able to allow individuals to between the Scottish and UK Governments are progressing deal with covid themselves. and whether there is some sort of timescale for allowing the two apps to work together. Matt Hancock: We are doing a huge amount of work Matt Hancock: I am delighted to have the chance to to trial these next-generation tests at the same time as agree wholeheartedly with the First Minister of Scotland. expanding the current testing capability. For instance, if We have been working closely together to ensure that we have to have a test, would it not be easier if we just the apps work together and interoperate in different needed some of our saliva rather than to having to put parts of the United Kingdom. That upgrade is expected the swab all the way up our nose and down the back of in the coming weeks. The two Governments are working our throat? These sorts of improvements in technology very hard and very constructively on it. are in the pipeline and we are working incredibly hard to bring them to bear as soon as possible. Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): May I thank my right hon. Friend for the way that he has Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): The local authorities in worked so closely with us in the west midlands? He the north-east have put forward a proposal to be able to knows that, first and foremost, I am in favour of community provide a test and trace service regionally. After this solidarity and good sense, rather than legal diktat and latest fiasco, will the Secretary of State now agree to Government fiat. Will he commend those universities pick up that offer of local testing and tracing and fund that have already introduced student responsibility the local authorities in the north-east to provide this? agreements as a way of furthering all of that? Will he bear in mind later on this week that our highly effective Matt Hancock: Yes. We put an extra £10 million into Mayor in the west midlands Andy Street, the Labour the local authorities in the north-east to support contact leader of Birmingham City Council and I are all of tracing and we are also stitching together the data feeds one mind, together with Justin Varney, the excellent between the national system and each of the individual head of public health in Birmingham, that the current local authorities in the north-east. We will keep working level of infection rates mean that there should be no hard on that project. I will keep listening to the needs of further changes there this week? the local authorities in the north-east and across the rest of the country. Matt Hancock: I concur with my right hon. Friend on the importance of personal responsibility. We all have a responsibility in this. I have not heard of Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): It is good that we responsibility agreements with students, but that is a are now testing more than other countries and good very sensible approach. I spoke to Andy Street this that we have a quarter more testing capacity than we morning, and he made clear to me the need for national had in August, and we are very grateful to the staff of and local government to work together. That is working the mobile testing centres that we now have in Oadby very effectively across the west midlands and across and Wigston, but what is my right hon. Friend doing to party lines, exactly as my right hon. Friend says. We further drive up testing capacity so that we can stay must continue to do that as we monitor the developments ahead of this? and the data and do all we can to keep this virus under control. Matt Hancock: That is the subject of a huge amount of Government effort, working with the NHS and with Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Some local the private sector on both the current technology and authorities are reporting that up to 500 unexpected the new technology. I will just make a point about positive cases have been downloaded to their system. Oadby and Wigston in my hon. Friend’s constituency. Some are two weeks old and have had no contact at all People say, “Where is a local lockdown having an from the national system. Directors of public health are effect?” Well, the answer is in Oadby and Wigston, angry and frustrated about the lack of joined-up working where the case rate has come down because the good and the fact that the national system continues to people of Oadby and Wigston have followed the locally break, despite the promises of both the Secretary of applied rules and that has brought the virus back under State and Baroness Harding to go for a more locally led control. I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for the approach. When will he start to work better with local leadership that he has shown there, along with the leaders authorities and have a more joined-up approach, harnessing of the county council and of the district council, who their expertise? have worked really hard together to make this happen. 635 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 636

Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Despite 10% of those contracting the virus. What assessments all the billions that have been spent on testing, we have been undertaken of the potential long-term social learned at the end of last week that the testing hours in and economic impacts of long covid, as well as of the London fell by 43% on the week before. There is also a lasting pressures on health and care systems? staggering variation in capacity. My own borough, Westminster, has one of the lowest testing rates in Matt Hancock: Mr Deputy Speaker, we have had London. Given that the limited capacity means that three voices of Wales in a row, including yours, Sir. I testing is being directed to those with the highest rates could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman from of infection, is there not a very real risk that this will Plaid Cymru. The impact of long covid can be very mean that we do not know what is going on accurately debilitating for many months, and some people who across the country because areas that are not getting caught covid in the initial peak still suffer from long-covid enough testing are not showing transmission, and therefore symptoms. We have instituted more research, and we we cannot make good decisions? When will we have the have started—in England at least—a long covid service testing capacity to allow us to make the right decisions in the NHS. Just today, the National Institute for Health for our people and our economy? and Care Excellence has published an approach to assessing long covid, which I would recommend to the Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady makes a really important hon. Gentleman. That approach will clearly need continued case. First, as she implies, we obviously have to put the effort so that we can make sure that people who suffer testing capacity into the areas with the biggest outbreaks from long covid get the support they need. to tackle those outbreaks. I think everybody understands that. At the same time, we have to increase testing Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): On capacity, and we are doing that. But thirdly, if an area Friday, I and my constituents learned via local media has lower testing than another area, we have to make and press reports that there are Government plans to sure that we take that into account when we look at how close the hospitals in Lancaster and Preston, with plans serious the problem is. We do that in two ways. The first to replace them with a super-hospital, which would is the positivity rate—what proportion of tests come have obvious implications for other Lancashire hospitals, through positive—and the second is the survey data, such as Chorley and Blackpool Victoria. Closing two particularly the Office for National Statistics survey, hospitals in Lancashire to build one super-hospital does which shows that rates in London are higher than in not make it easier for my constituents or the people of some parts of the rest of the country, such as the Lancashire to access vital medical care. Does the Secretary south-west, the south-east and East Anglia, but not as of State believe, as I do, that the next time we hear a high as in the midlands and the north of England, or Minister talk about building 40 new hospitals, it should indeed in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We come with a health warning that that also means closing have to look at the surveys and the positivity, as well as 80 hospitals? the basic case rate. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Before I invite the Secretary Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I recognise of State to answer that—I will give some flexibility—please my right hon. Friend’s focus, attention and efforts in make sure that your questions relate to the statement responding to the ever-changing covid situation. Does that has just been given. he recognise that there are currently myriad different forms of restrictions across different parts of the country Matt Hancock: As well as responding to coronavirus, and that can become confusing? What consideration we need to ensure that we invest in the physical infrastructure has he given to simplifying the approach to the restrictions? of the NHS. I would just correct the hon. Lady, because In doing so, would he ensure that any simplification the proposal in her part of the world is to consult on applies to every part of the UK? whether one or two hospitals is the right approach and the right thing for her part of the world. I encourage her Matt Hancock: The short answer is yes. The proposals to welcome the massive investment in the NHS in that we are working through and that I will bring to this Lancashire, and across the country, which will improve House are to have a more simplified approach to the care right across this land. local action that we took. We have shared that approach with the devolved Administrations.Indeed, I have discussed Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): I thank my right it with Vaughan Gething, my opposite number in Wales. hon. Friend for the huge investment in west London It is the sort of approach that would simplify matters hospitals announced on Friday.With regards to coronavirus, further were it undertaken across the UK, but that is a should we not focus as much, if not more, on the decision for the Welsh Government in Wales, and for hospitalisation rate, as opposed to the incidence rate? the other devolved Administrations, because public health Often, people do not have symptoms, or have very mild decisions are devolved. I urge the Welsh Government to symptoms, and, certainly in London, the hospitalisation continue working with us. I urge my right hon. Friend, rate is a fraction of what it was in April. who is a very strong voice in Wales, to try to persuade the Welsh Government to take that sort of approach Matt Hancock: Of course, the hospitalisation rate is across the whole of the Principality. an important factor that we look at, and it is a concern. Unfortunately, the latest hospitalisation rate has risen Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Jonathan to 422, which is the highest since the middle of June. Edwards. Hospitalisations tend to lag behind the number of cases, because people catch the disease and some, sadly, are Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) later hospitalised. We therefore keep a close eye on the (Ind): Diolch, Mr Deputy Speaker. Increasing evidence hospitalisation rate, and the bad news is that it is, sadly, indicates that so-called long covid is impacting around going up. 637 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 638

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab) [V]: The six working night and day to get this right: the responsibility councils in the Liverpool city region face a budget for this is not on you; it is on those who guarantee the shortfall of £150 million. On Thursday, the Health checks to the system. As the Secretary of State has Secretary announced £7 million to be split between the indicated, that is him. With that in mind, can he avail Liverpool city region and three further councils—a himself of any data process flow charts or other diagrams drop in the ocean compared with £150 million. He relating to the processing of this data, and all data knows that local professionals have solutions to the quality assurance policies and processes, and put those problems of test, trace and isolate. He has shown that in the public domain? Yes or no? there are not just millions but billions of pounds available for Serco, Deloitte, Compass and friends. So when will Matt Hancock: I am very happy to work with the he invest in local public health teams and sort out the team to see what we can put in the public domain. mess of test, trace and isolate once and for all? However, the challenge of a maximum file size error is that it would not necessarily have appeared on that sort Matt Hancock: As I have said, we have been putting of flow chart and, given the massive expansion of the the extra money into local councils, as well as using, availability of data storage over recent years, would not, frankly, all the tools at our disposal, public or private I expect, be a feature of the system that is already in sector—whether people are in the NHS, PHE, a local train to replace the one that caused the problem this council or a firm that can bring a capability to bear on weekend. However, I wholeheartedly agree with what this problem. It is one big team effort. the hon. Lady has said about the civil servants in the Department and the staff at PHE, who are working so Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Talking hard during this pandemic. of tools at my hon. Friend’s disposal, Bournemouth University stands ready to help with lab testing. However, Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): My right it is covid testing in schools that I would like to address. hon. Friend gave an excellent answer to our right hon. Today the rules state that the entire year group must Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). stay out of school for 14 days if one of the pupils in it The JCVI report is indeed most helpful and reassuring tests positive. That causes huge disruption not only to because it prioritises the vulnerable, the elderly and, of learning, but to working parents, who have to provide course, our health workers. However, it last met on childcare. With better testing systems now in place, 1 September, and the report is dated 23 September. Can please can we review this 14-day rule that sends entire my right hon. Friend confirm that if there is more year groups home, so that we can keep children both information on the progress of the vaccine, that committee safe and in school? will meet again and we will get another excellent report? Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely. People are asking Matt Hancock: I would love to be able to review that, questions about how the vaccine will be rolled out and but only when it is clinically safe to do so. However, I of course I understand why people are so interested in would just point out to both my right hon. Friend and that. We will of course protect the most vulnerable first also to all those in education who are following this, and we will do that on the basis of clinical advice. The including in schools across Bournemouth, that schools JCVI brings together the best clinicians in this area and do not necessarily have to send the whole year group it meets very regularly. Decisions of the JCVI will not home; they have to send the bubble home. By ensuring be on the critical path to the roll-out of the vaccine—I that the way in which they operate keeps people safe, have been assured of that. schools can ensure that bubbles are smaller than the whole year group. Many schools do that. The first Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) immediate port of call would be to try to get the bubble (Lab) [V]: One of my 15-year-old constituents had a smaller within a school, and then we should of course covid test over a week ago, and in spite of chasing, is work together on other ways to solve the problem. still none the wiser as to whether she has covid or not. Not only is she having to self-isolate, but her mum, a Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con): I do not underestimate nurse, is having to take the precaution of self-isolating, the scale of the challenge in ensuring that we have something she says her ward can ill afford. On top of enough tests for everyone who needs them, and it is that, last month, the time taken to get test results back incredibly encouraging that testing capacity has increased from the national Test and Trace programme to Oldham’s by 25% since the middle of August. Can my right hon. public health team, to enable them to trace the cases Friend assure me that he continues to work to get that the national programme is failing to get in touch testing capacity up even further, so that venues such as with, was 12 days—12 days, not 24 hours. Will the Victoria Hall in Keighley can meet demand? Health Secretary please tell my constituent how many of the 16,000 or so lost test results were from Oldham, Matt Hancock: Yes, that is absolutely right. Testing and how many contacts—not cases— have not yet been capacity now stands at over 300,000. We are on track to traced? reach 500,000 by the end of this month. I know what a goal to expand testing capacity feels like. This is a tough Matt Hancock: The good news is that the turnaround and difficult challenge, but the team are rising to it. My time of test results has been coming down. I would love hon. Friend has made the case for Keighley so strongly to take up the case of the individual who has not had a during this pandemic, and he continues to do so in result back, as the hon. Lady has described, because terms of the extra testing capacity needed there now. that is rare: the majority of cases now come back the next day. I will specifically look into turnaround times Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): However basic in Oldham, because an average of 12 days seems a lot this data error might have been, the consequences are longer than I expected, and I will make sure to get back very serious. However, I say to those civil servants to the hon. Lady at the appropriate opportunity. 639 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 640

Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con): From speaking Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]: to local people, it has become clear that there are still In Salford, the case numbers have now risen above concerns about routine appointments—GP appointments 250 per 100,000. As well as this case uploads programme and, increasingly,routine dental care—which are obviously issue today, our local contact tracing programme is important for preventing problems down the line. Can having to wait on average four days for data from the my right hon. Friend tell me what plans he has to ensure national system, and in the worst cases seven to nine that over these potentially bumpy next few months, days. That is creating unacceptable delay to contact people are still able to get those appointments? tracing. In August, Baroness Harding said that we would have a contact tracing system that was “local by Matt Hancock: For all my huge enthusiasm for default”, so what is the Secretary of State doing to technology, it is obviously critical for people to have a make sure that data gets to local authorities in a timely face-to-face appointment in primary care at their GP’s way so that it can be followed up by genuinely local surgery, if one is needed. We have made it clear that contact tracing systems under the control of our local every GP practice should offer those face-to-face directors of public health? appointments in a covid-secure way where they are needed. The vast majority of GPs are doing incredible Matt Hancock: This is the goal, as the hon. Member work, and offering the public the service and the vocation sets out, and reducing the times for those transfers is that they went into medicine for. If my hon. Friend has very important, and making sure that the transfers specific examples, I will be happy to look into them, but happen effectively and in an automated and cohesive overall, it is so important that we keep primary care way is very important. But the approach that she sets running. out of using the national system to do the first attempts at contacting people—to contact those whom it is easy Mr Deputy Speaker: Mr Barry Sheerman. to contact—and then use the local system to contact those where it is more difficult, and where boots on the Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: ground can help, is the approach that we are taking to Mr Deputy Speaker, my former student—thank you. I make sure that we can get that join-up as effectively as say to the Secretary of State that we are talking about possible. human beings working systems, and I warn him that there will be more glitches. Technology means glitches, Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con): so I am worried about him, because we have a long, I would like to thank the Secretary of State for working hard winter ahead. Does he agree with me that what we so constructively with Wolverhampton City Council are doing in Huddersfield, in Kirklees—working together when it requested some limited local restrictions around as a council, a local university and a local health trust, households visiting other households in their own homes. putting party political issues to one side—is what we As we move forward to get the virus down, can we give must do this winter? We have to beat this virus, and we further advice on how we all can limit transmissions have to work together in order to do that. within home settings, especially where we have a vulnerable family member? Matt Hancock: I agree with every word that my hon. Friend has said. Matt Hancock: It is so important that people follow this guidance, and of course the first principle for Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): First, I everybody needs to be “Hands, face, space” and keeping welcome the new centre at Keele University campus in a distance, if possible, within households if somebody my constituency, which opened last Friday, and I thank tests positive. The other thing not to underestimate is my right hon. Friend’s Department for that. Secondly, the importance of cleaning, because this virus passes on he may be aware of the article in The Times on Saturday through the air, but it also passes on on surfaces, and we that suggested people were having difficulty accessing should all—all—be aware of that. tests at the centre in Newcastle-under-Lyme itself, which had been walk-up in August but now requires Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]: It was good booking. The article suggests that there is plenty of to see the Secretary of State earlier today, and I very capacity at the centre, but not yet enough at the labs, much hope that he will keep talking to local and regional so could he confirm that this Government are still leaders. As the Secretary of State well knows, the winter committed to half a million tests a day by the end of months are always the toughest for patients and for this month? staff. This one could prove to be the most challenging that our NHS has ever faced. So can I ask the Secretary Matt Hancock: We are committed and on track to of State to guarantee that the NHS will have the funding the delivery of half a million tests by the end of this resources needed to get it through this winter? month. We have capacity at over 300,000 now. I saw the article in The Times. Of course, one of the good things Matt Hancock: I welcome the very constructive approach is that in Newcastle-under-Lyme, the case rate had that the hon. Gentleman takes in his local role as well as come right down. We had a walk-in centre because it in this House. Of course, we have put in the extra was an outbreak area, and it stopped being an outbreak funding that the NHS needs this winter. Weare expanding area because everybody in Newcastle-under-Lyme did over 140 emergency departments, because emergency their bit and brought the case rate down. That is a good departments need more space so there can be social thing, of course, but it does mean that we have to make distancing. We have also put in funding so that we can sure that the testing is targeted at where it is most continue the work on electives, even though it is more needed across the country. What I really want to do is difficult, and on infection control—and, of course, as have that extra capacity that we are building so everybody much discussed, on testing. I look forward very much to everywhere can get it. working with him further as we try to control this virus. 641 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 642

Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Can the consultation, so that people in south Cumbria do the Secretary of State confirm that the rule of six and not have to make dangerous journeys for emergency curfew are based on the evidence of what worked in care? Belgium, and will he continue to provide the whole country with the evidence of what has worked Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. That internationally so we can take the whole country with was only touched on briefly in the statement, which was us to defeat the pandemic? a covid update. It would have been really nice if the hon. Member could have asked his question in relation to the Matt Hancock: Yes, my hon. Friend makes a very covid update, which is what the statement was mainly important point, which is that we have got to learn from about. things that have worked in other countries. We are Matt Hancock: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As constantly looking around the world as well as at the part of the coronavirus response across Lancashire and domestic science. I am very happy to work with him to Cumbria, we want to ensure that the NHS is prepared see what further we can publish in terms of the assessments for the long term, so we are putting a huge investment that are made and then presented to us as Ministers to into Lancashire and the new hospitals in Lancashire. make decisions on that constitute that scientific advice. The hon. Gentleman almost mentioned that there is a consultation on whether to have two replacements or Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): It is one. I entirely understand that he takes a position clear that local lockdown areas should have control of within that consultation, but it is worth explaining that test and trace; yet at the weekend the Prime Minister there is a consultation on whether to replace them with was adamant that it was not failures with his “world- two hospitals or one. There will rightly be full public beating” system that have had an impact on our local engagement, with his constituents, those of the hon. increases, but that my constituents are just undisciplined Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith), and in following his confusing and incoherent messaging. potentially yours, Mr Deputy Speaker, on which is the Does the Secretary of State share the Prime Minister’s right approach. However, this is a massive investment in insulting view? the local NHS that everybody should welcome. Matt Hancock: It is incredibly important that all of Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: I thank us, as leaders in our local area, reiterate the public the Secretary of State for coming to the House yet again health advice that people should follow the rules, which to update the House on covid matters and health matters. are put in place for a reason. Nobody wants to have He is right, of course, to concentrate on covid, but we these rules in place, but they are important to keep us all also have to worry about people who do not have covid safe. diseases and need treatment. In north Northamptonshire, it is welcome that a Boris hospital will be built just off Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con): I recognise the the A14, which will be state of the art and will replace scale of the challenge in increasing testing capacity. In the town centre one of Kettering. Will the Secretary of Devon, it has increased by over 40% since the start of State tell me when it will be built, and when it will be September. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that finished? work continues to rapidly get that capacity up even further, so that constituents in my North Devon Matt Hancock: As part of the coronavirus response, constituency are able to get tested? we must ensure that we keep our physical NHS up to date, and we will build the new hospital in Kettering. Matt Hancock: Yes. We will complete it before 2030 at the latest, and I very much hope a long time before then. I want to say how Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): In the Secretary much my hon. Friend has done to work towards delivering of State’s statement, he said that 51% of the cases have it, along with my hon. Friends the Members for Kettering now been contacted a second time for contact tracing (Mr Hollobone) and for Corby (Tom Pursglove) nearby. purposes. Can he clarify how many people are still It has been a team effort, and I was thrilled to be able to waiting to be contacted for the first time, and how can let them know that this is happening, and it will happen he say with any confidence that the notification process before the decade is out. for those individuals has not been delayed? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): There will be lots of opportunities to question the Secretary of State Matt Hancock: All of the 15,000 have been contacted about the new hospitals at a more appropriate time. for the first time. Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) [V]: In the past Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): In 14 days, New Zealand has had 35 coronavirus cases, the Secretary of State’s statement, he spoke with pride China, Hong Kong and Macau 260, Vietnam 28, about the Prime Minister’s announcement on Friday of Thailand 84 and Australia 238. The UK has had the additional capital programme for hospitals.In Cumbria, 108,000 cases. Our coronavirus strategy is failing. we met that announcement with some dismay. As the Others show we can fix this and get the test and trace hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith) system our people need. So will the Secretary of State said, there is a proposal to close the Preston and Lancaster do what is needed: kick out Serco, sack Dido Harding, hospitals and merge them into a single hospital somewhere and put the billions of pounds wasted on private in between. Does the Secretary of State realise that that companies that are failing into our NHS, which will do will mean even longer journeys for acute care for people the job properly? from the South Lakes? Will he have a word with the Prime Minister, and drop that dangerous proposal from Matt Hancock: No. 643 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 644

Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) [V]: Does my right Brexit may be being reduced because of this pandemic. hon. Friend agree that hospitals such as Queen’s Hospital Can the Secretary of State update us on both those in Burton should be doing everything they can to points? reintroduce access for birth partners of pregnant women during all stages of labour, and that this should be Matt Hancock: On the first point, for all those who treated as a priority? test positive, receiving that result brings a duty under law to self-isolate. That is the primary way we keep Matt Hancock: Yes, I do. Coronavirus brings many people safe and that has worked. As I said in my challenges, and making sure that we have good infection statement, as of 9 o’clock this morning 51% of those control not just during childbirth, but during the meetings had been contacted for contact tracing purposes. I very that are often so critical during pregnancy, is very much hope the constituent the hon. Lady mentions will important. We changed the guidelines a couple of weeks be contacted very soon, if not already. On the final ago, and I know that everybody across the NHS is question she asks, of course we have been replenishing working their hardest to get the best outcome, and I the stockpiles of drugs that we used up during the peak. hope we get there soon. That has been a very important part of the work over the summer, as we prepare to leave the end of the Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab): transition period at the end of this year. It is nine months since the World Health Organisation first warned of the risks covid posed. My constituents Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): I in Southwark deserve to know that the Government are thank the Secretary of State for his continued engagement trying to keep them safe and that they can get tested or with me and other colleagues from all sides of the traced if needed; why no other Government in the House throughout this crisis, and also for our new Boris world have experienced such problems with Excel hospital coming to Shotley Bridge. My constituents spreadsheets, and why the Secretary of State will not have three concerns still, one of which is the speed of take responsibility for this latest world-beating getting tests back. I know there has been some improvement incompetence. recently, but will he update us on that? They are also still concerned about the 10 pm restrictions and about Matt Hancock: Funnily enough, when I speak to my clarity on how we get out of local lockdown measures. colleagues from across the world we find we often have Will he inform us a bit more about that? many of the same challenges, including the need to get Matt Hancock: The coronavirus crisis is not easy for the testing capacity up, and the hon. Gentleman may any Health Secretary, but it was a joy to be able to call not believe me, but occasionally they ask me what we my hon. Friend and tell him that we are rebuilding have done to extend testing capacity quite as much as Shotley Bridge Hospital on the site of the old steelworks. we have. I am very happy to explain that to both him It will be absolutely fantastic, like a phoenix in the heart and his constituents and to the rest of the House. of County Durham. It is a joy to work with my hon. Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): Can my right hon. Friend, who asks important questions about coronavirus. Friend confirm that his statement today does not impact As he says, we are reducing the turnaround times for on the decision to keep Redcar and Cleveland, Stockton, test results. We will continue to work to try to make and Darlington out of local lockdown restrictions, and them as fast as possible. does he also see that more testing surely means more Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) positive tests, so should we now be looking at the (Lab) [V]: Will the Secretary of State please outline numbers of people admitted to hospital instead of what measures will be put in place to ensure that all covid case numbers before considering further lockdown family members of residents in care homes can continue restrictions in local authority areas? to see their families and loved ones over the coming Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend makes an important months, including whether guarantee PPE and testing point. First, as the chief medical officer has confirmed, for families will be guaranteed? this issue does not affect the decisions taken last week, Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady has taken a close and but of course we look at all those decisions each week, repeated interest in this very important subject. We have and, as my hon. Friend knows, we take as localised an put in place updated guidance on visiting care homes, approach as possible, so that rather than bringing in which is a very important and sensitive balance we need measures for the whole of Teesside, we brought in to strike, working with local directors of public health. I measures for Middlesbrough and Hartlepool, where the cannot give the guarantee she seeks in all areas because local councils had called for them—whether or not they it is a matter for the judgment of the director of public mentioned that afterwards. We should keep working health locally, because in some parts of the country the together and making sure we look at the data—the virus is more prevalent than elsewhere. I wish I could, hospitalisation figures of course, as well as the test but I cannot. I look forward to continuing to work with positivity, and of course the number of cases. her to try to get that balance right. Hospitalisation data is important, but it follows with a lag, so we have to look at the early indicators as well. Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): I welcome the news that the Queen’s Medical Centre and City Hospital will Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab) [V]: Constituents be rebuilt in Nottingham. On PPE, the Minister for in West Lancashire are worried: constituents of mine Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood were told they tested positive on Friday and they still (Edward Argar), told the Public Administration and have not been contacted by Track and Trace or the Constitutional Affairs Committee in July that in the restaurant they work in. They worry that this is increasing early days of the pandemic the Government the danger of the spread of covid. They are also worried “went from supplying PPE to about 250 or 260 hospitals…to that the stockpile of drugs held in the event of a no-deal 58,000 organisations” 645 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 646

[Tom Randall] vaccine—and the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency would not license it—unless we are such was the pace of change. With the measures the confident that it is safe. It is at that point, when we Government have recently taken, and with 32 billion know more about the clinical details, that will be able to pieces of PPE, can my right hon. Friend assure me that say more about its effective roll out. the Government are now in a much better position to deal with PPE should there be any increase in cases as Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab) [V]: After our we go into the winter? broken test and trace system and the failure to put a protective ring around care homes, and after the recent Matt Hancock: Absolutely.The PPE distribution system and preventable outbreaks in universities and the ultimately was described by the head of the armed forces as the unnecessary restructuring of Public Health England, biggest logistical exercise he had seen in his professional the chaos this weekend is symbolic of the way the lifetime. It has been a mammoth effort to get it into Government have handled the pandemic. Does the decent shape, but it is now in decent shape, I am very Secretary of State agree that these are his failures and glad to say. We have been preparing to solve not only only his alone? the current problems, but preparing in case of a second peak. We have said that PPE will be free to NHS Matt Hancock: Responding to a pandemic is an institutions and care homes for the remainder of this enormously challenging task. Thankfully, it is a massive financial year to remove that worry. I strongly support team effort, and it is one in which the whole country can what my hon. Friend said about the warm welcome to be engaged because we all have a part to play. the rebuilding of the QMC and City Hospital in Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]: London Nottingham. It is a place I know well from my family, consists of 32 boroughs plus the City of London and many of whom are from Nottingham. It is really great covers a population of around 8 million people. We are that we are able to put in that huge investment. told that infection rates are going up in each of the Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: I London boroughs, but some are much higher than am reassured by the Secretary of State’s answer to my others. I urge my right hon. Friend to consider, when he hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington needs to introduce lockdown procedures, doing so on a (Jeff Smith) that Manchester will not be subject to borough-by-borough basis and not inflicting unnecessary further restrictions as a result of the contained outbreaks restrictions on the whole of London, which would be in halls of residence. However, Manchester residents counterproductive in terms of delivering downward have now been unable to see their loved ones for more pressure on the increased case load. It would potentially than two months—since our rates were less than 50 per bring the economy to a halt and affect the way Parliament 100,000, and they are now 10 times higher than that—and works. I strongly reject the suggestion that this is somehow Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend makes an important because of our own personal actions. Is it not time for a point. Getting the right geography for any particular rethink? Blanket, wide local restrictions just are not action is an important and difficult consideration. Last working according to their own objectives. If we are week’s example, when we took two of the Teesside looking at another six months, this is no life for people boroughs into local action but not the other three, to be living and is not sustainable or desirable. demonstrates that we are absolutely prepared to do as Matt Hancock: There is a challenge where case rates my hon. Friend wishes for London. On the other hand, are going up sharply. Of course, the virus does pass on on the same day we took the whole of the Liverpool city through social contact. We need to work with the local region into the same measures, because that was what councils to bring the virus under control in Manchester, was appropriate there. We have to take into account as in other parts of the country where it is rising travel patterns and socialising patterns, as well as the sharply. pure data from the epidemiology and the number of cases, but it is absolutely something that we look at Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): On because we want to minimise the number of restrictions Saturday, my wife and I got our annual flu jabs. I hope that are in place, subject to the need to keep the virus you will indulge me for just a second, Mr Deputy under control. Speaker, while I say that the GPs and nurses at our local Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): The Secretary of surgery are doing an outstanding job. It was pre-booked State is full of bravado and bluster, despite a catalogue and within two minutes we were in and out. of mistakes and regular statements. When the truth is I do not want to make you cry, Mr Deputy Speaker, spread thinly, people start to see through it. We hear the but unfortunately I suffer quite badly with vaccines—when expression “world-beating test and trace system”—how I had my yellow fever vaccine I thought my end had would Ricky Tomlinson describe it? come. Does my right hon. Friend agree that people need to be aware of some of the side-effects of vaccines and Matt Hancock: I don’t know. be crystal clear on the symptoms of coronavirus, so that once they have had their vaccines, they may not necessarily Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): seek covid tests? People should be absolutely clear on May I begin by thanking my right hon. Friend for the the three symptoms of covid. £500 million for Epsom and St Helier hospitals and for taking very quick action after I asked in this House Matt Hancock: It is too early yet to set out the for additional testing capacity in Carshalton and clinical details of vaccines, other than to say that we Wallington? Not long after I asked him, we heard that have a draft of the priority order for the distribution of three more sites may open in my borough, which is very a covid vaccine and that we will not bring in a covid welcome. Obviously, those new sites will need the testing 647 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 648 capacity to be able to cope, so can he assure me that we Will the Secretary of State confirm that Scots will not will continue the work to get that capacity up as quickly be prejudiced by the Tory Government’s preference for as possible and into boroughs such as Sutton? private profit over public health?

Matt Hancock: Yes. We are bringing more testing Matt Hancock: Quite the contrary; the UK-wide capacity into Sutton. We have opened more testing sites testing system delivers enormous numbers of tests to in Sutton. I can tell the House that the average distance people in Scotland, and I know from having studied it travelled to a test has now fallen to 4.3 miles from over that people in Scotland are really grateful for the fact 6 miles three weeks ago. We are also bringing a new that we work together,with the UK Government delivering hospital to my hon. Friend’s area—a massive half-a- testing in Scotland alongside the Scottish NHS delivering billion-pound investment in the NHS, showing that we testing in Scotland. It is that sort of coming together are always prepared to protect the NHS for the long that people look for during a time like this. term. Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): In Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab): Various companies Stoke-on-Trent, we were delighted to come off the have multimillion-pound contracts, and it is important national watchlist as an area of concern after hard work that we understand their motivation to succeed. Does from Stoke-on-Trent City Council and Staffordshire Serco get paid for voided test results—yes or no? County Council and, most importantly, the people of Stoke-on-Trent, Kidsgrove and Talke adhering to the Matt Hancock: The motivation of my whole team, public health messaging. Additionally,we have the regional no matter how they are employed or contracted, is to test centre that Councillor Abi Brown and I successfully beat this virus, and we are working together to do that. lobbied my right hon. Friend for and two incoming walk-in test centres in Stoke-on-Trent. Will my right hon. Friend commit further by giving additional funding Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I to help Stoke-on-Trent City Council and the Royal thank my right hon. Friend for his important statement. Stoke University Hospital to deliver increased testing In South Derbyshire we have world-renowned laboratories capacity for the thousands of local health and social locally, and my constituents have asked me to ask: what care workers across Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire? steps is he taking to increase the number of labs available to process tests, so that we can continue to increase Matt Hancock: As well as the expansion of testing testing capacity as quickly as possible? that my hon. Friend mentions, I can tell him that we are expanding NHS testing capacity within Stoke, and we Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend is right to ask that are putting in the extra funding to deliver that. This question, because we are expanding the number of labs man stands up for Stoke so strongly, and he has been as we expand the number of tests. I know that there is making the case clearly and powerfully, so I am glad to great capability in Derbyshire that can be brought to be able to tell him that we can do that. bear as part of this big team effort. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: As Co-op): Vaccines have come up a number of times you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, people in lockdown in during the statement today. Will the Secretary of State Wales are not allowed to leave their county for fear of be absolutely clear: are there shortages and recalls of flu spreading the disease. For instance, people in Newport, vaccine going on at the moment? I have certainly been where there are 50 cases per 100,000 people, cannot go told by a major pharmacy company that there are, and to Aberystwyth. But people in Manchester, where there the Royal College of General Practitioners wrote to me are 500 cases per 100,000 people—10 times the number— yesterday mentioning delays of one month. He did not can go to Aberystwyth and elsewhere in Wales and answer the question from the Chair of the Health spread the disease. To stop this spreading of disease, Committee. Kate Bingham was very clear that vaccinating will the Secretary of State restrict travel out of locked-down the whole population was just not going to happen. areas in England? If not, will he accept that it would be Was she correct to say that? a good idea for people arriving in low-risk areas in Wales to quarantine, or is he happy for the disease to Matt Hancock: On the latter point, we take our spread without restriction? advice from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, and it will provide the clinical advice. Matt Hancock: The challenge is that the primary That clinical advice has not been provided yet, because transmission of the disease is between households and the data has not yet been provided to it in full from the households mixing with one another. The approach trials that are ongoing. I could not be clearer about that we have taken in England since we came out of the that. The Government’s advice on the distribution of initial full-blown lockdown has been to put travel restrictions the vaccine for clinical purposes comes from the JCVI, in guidance rather than law, because we feel that that is and I urge the hon. Gentleman and all others to read its the most appropriate thing to do. That is not the approach report from 10 days ago. It was an excellent report. being taken in Wales, but that is how we are currently When it comes to the flu vaccine, we have enough to handling it in England. vaccinate every single person who is in a priority group over the age of 65, those who are clinically vulnerable Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) [V]: It was a and the children who are eligible for it. We are rolling political, not a health, decision to pursue a private that out over the forthcoming months. On Sunday, I sector route for testing. Scotland has chosen differently, spoke to the president of the Royal College of GPs, and but there are concerns that ongoing capacity issues in we discussed the need to make it clear to GPs England and Wales will have an impact on Scotland. and pharmacists—they are at the core of the roll-out—and 649 Covid-19 Update 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 650

[Matt Hancock] progress is my right hon. Friend making in expanding capacity, so that my constituents can get testing readily also to the general public that we have enough vaccine. when they need it? We are rolling it out over the months to come. It is very important that people come forward, and I am really Matt Hancock: We are expanding testing. However, I glad they are doing so in record numbers this year, but it would add that in this House two or three weeks ago, does take several weeks to get that done. the big item of discussion was excess demand for testing. We put out public health messaging to explain that Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): The House people should come forward for a test if they have should recognise that going from 2,000 tests a day in symptoms of coronavirus, but not if they do not, and March to around 250,000 now—hopefully we will see the number of people without symptoms coming forward that double over the next few weeks—is a significant has fallen since then. As a result, we can get the testing achievement, but can the Health Secretary provide any capacity we have to the people who need it. That has reassurance to sectors such as travel, theatre and events, been a success, and I thank everyone in the country who which are in so much difficulty? Can we use mass listened to those messages. We have worked hard to testing to help them open up again? increase communications about it, and the demand has been moving in the right direction. Matt Hancock: My right hon. Friend makes a really Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Covid case important and heartfelt plea. I have been working with data is used to decide which areas are in local lockdown, the travel sector and discussing the matter with them. with the impact on hospitality businesses and families While the testing capacity is, as it is now, on the current visiting loved ones in care homes, and the detrimental technology, we have to use it for the clinically prioritised effect on the mental health of those missing out on groups, but of course we would all love to see when social interactions. Can the Secretary of State assure me further expansion can mean that we can use testing and my constituents that the data used to put us in local more broadly in the sorts of ways that she describes. restrictions is up to date and accurate, and that when we start to get cases down, and as soon as it is safe, we can Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Since the come out of local restrictions? beginning of this crisis, the Government’s approach has Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly been one of central control. We are fixated on the important point. We are of course vigilant and we have number of tests, but is the real issue not the number of to bring in local action in some cases, as we have in his tests, but what we do with the information we get from area, but we will also bring areas out of restrictions them? Before the new restrictions were applied to County when it is safe to do so, as we did in his area, although Durham, NHS Test and Trace took testing capacity out unfortunately it then had to go back in again. I would of County Durham. Is it not now time to just admit prefer it if places did not come in, out and back in again that the national system has failed? What is needed is to in that way, but my view is that that is better than give responsibility directly to directors of public health, leaving the measures in place when they are not needed. with the resources to do not only the testing, but the more important thing, which is tracing, which they are We publish the data, which has now been updated to more able to do than people in national call centres? take into account the issues we had over the weekend, and we will have in place the minimum interventions that are necessary to keep the virus suppressed and to Matt Hancock: We put in money, including into the protect the economy, education and the NHS as much right hon. Gentleman’sconstituency,to do exactly that—to as possible until the vaccine arrives. That is the strategy, make sure that there is local support. He says we should which is true in Colne Valley and true right across the follow a localised approach. That is exactly what we did country, and I look forward to working with you, in the north-east: when the seven north-east councils Mr Deputy Speaker, and colleagues across the House to came to national Government, they asked for a set of help the country to get through this. interventions to be put in place, and we did that. That is exactly the sort of approach that we ought to be taking, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the and we will continue to do so. Secretary of State for Health and Social Care for updating the House on covid-19 measures and for answering Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): The number of questions for the last hour and a half. Thank you very people in Dudley who have been triaged for coronavirus much. testing has halved in the past couple of weeks. It is hard Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, to believe that this is down to reduced demand. What 4 June.) 651 5 OCTOBER 2020 652

Point of Order Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill 5.58 pm Second Reading Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. There is no Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I inform the provision on today’s Order Paper for debating the House that I have not selected the reasoned amendment. programme motion, which is listed to be moved forthwith at 10 pm. That motion proposes that the further stages 6.2 pm of the Bill—Committee, Report and Third Reading—be taken in single session on Thursday week. The Bill we The Minister for Security (James Brokenshire): I beg are debating today is described in the House of Commons to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. briefing document as raising This legislation is being introduced to keep our country “one of the most profound issues which can face a democratic safe and to ensure that our operational agencies and society governed by the rule of law”, public authorities have access to the tools and intelligence quoting not some left-wing non-governmental organisation that they need to keep us safe—safe from terrorists, safe but the Investigatory Powers Tribunal. The last time the from serious organised crime groups, and safe from Government rushed a security Bill through in this way, I others who wish to cause harm to our country and our and others had a challenge in the court of law; the citizens. Specifically, the Bill deals with participation in Government lost and had to rewrite the Bill. We do not criminal conduct by covert human intelligence sources— want to do that again, so what can we do to ensure that so-called CHIS. These are agents, or undercover officers, these profound issues are properly debated, before we who help to secure prosecutions and disruptions by allow the Government to break our laws whenever they infiltrating criminal and terrorist groups. choose? Throughout history, those entrusted to uphold the law or safeguard national security have used covert Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am grateful human intelligence to support and progress their activity. to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of the From Sir Francis Walsingham’s use of informers to point of order. As he knows, it is not a point of order defend the reign of Elizabeth I from internal and external for the Chair, but Standing Orders do not, as he rightly threats, to the deployments by the newly formed detective says, provide for separate debate on a programme motion units of the Metropolitan police in the latter half of the after Second Reading. It is, however, in order for him to 19th century, to the double-cross system in the second raise his concerns during the Second Reading debate world war, covert human intelligence has always been a and to vote against the programme motion itself, should vital part of our national security and law enforcement he wish to do so. The scheduling of the subsequent framework. stages of the Bill is entirely a matter for the Government. More recently, though, CHIS have been critical in We are now going to suspend for three minutes to identifying and disrupting terrorist plots, drugs and enable the sanitisation of the Dispatch Boxes. Will firearms offences, child sexual exploitation and abuse, those leaving the Chamber please do so with social and other serious organised crime. Since March 2017, distancing in mind? MI5 and counter-terrorism police have together thwarted some 27 terror attacks. As the director general of MI5 5.59 pm said when the Bill was introduced: Sitting suspended. “Without the contribution of human agents, be in no doubt…these attacks would not have been prevented.” I have been advised that between November 2018 and 2019 CHIS operations within the Metropolitan police area alone led to 3,500 arrests, the recovery of more than 100 firearms and 400 other weapons, the seizure of more than 400 kg of class A drugs, and the recovery of more than £2.5 million in cash. Similarly,CHIS operations in 2019 alone enabled the National Crime Agency to safeguard several hundred victims of crime, including from child sexual exploitation and abuse. This is an important and unique tactic; by working their way into the heart of criminal groups, CHIS are able to access intelligence that other investigatory powers may simply never detect.

Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): The Minister knows how seriously I take these matters and the equipping of our security services to do the job that they need to do, often in horrendous circumstances that affect the integrity of our country and its individuals, but he will also appreciate that safeguards have to be in place. What does he have to say to those who have raised serious concerns that the Bill, as it stands, does not have the safeguards in place to prevent assault, murder and torture, about which there 653 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 654 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Stephen Doughty] specific permission can be challenged in court and can indeed lead to prosecutions. That specificity is at the is an absolute prohibition? He knows that we are a heart of this measure. signatory to the convention on human rights, so what does he have to say on those matters? James Brokenshire: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that point. The issue of specifici—I cannot James Brokenshire: I hope I will be able to respond to even say it; I shall settle for saying the specific authorisations the hon. Gentleman during my speech, underlining that are granted. They are tightly bound and that is some of the safeguards—the importance of oversight, important. That is why we published the guidance that which we attach equally to this Bill, and the operation sits alongside the operationalisation of the Bill at the of a criminal conduct authorisation, as contemplated same time as the Bill—to give that sense of confirmation by the Bill. I hope he will also have noted the specific and clarity on how it will operate. reference to the Human Rights Act in the Bill, in order to underline some of the important points he makes about convention rights. Mr David Davis: I hear what my right hon. Friend says about the Human Rights Act, but the defence that Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): the Government put up in the legal case that was The Minister has reeled off an impressive number of brought against them said in terms that the state is “not statistics, which justify the use of CHIS operations. the instigator” of such activity and How many or what proportion of the operations were “cannot be treated as somehow responsible for it”. undertaken by the Food Standards Agency, which will The memorandum to the Bill states that also come under the ambit of this Bill? “it is to be expected that there would not be State responsibility”. James Brokenshire: The right hon. Gentleman is drawing How is that using the Human Rights Act to underpin me on to talk about some of those wider bodies. I will the rights of our citizens? address that later in my speech, but I point out that the FSA is required to deal with issues associated with James Brokenshire: I know that my right hon. Friend, misrepresented food—food that may be harmful for rightly, takes these issues incredibly seriously. The issues human consumption. Therefore the issues of we are talking about go to the kernel of our national proportionality and necessity are bound within the security, and equally, our confidence in our criminal frame of the Bill, and limit the activities that would be justice system and the way in which our operatives, who reasonable for such agencies to act upon. Perhaps I can are there to protect us, act. I do place weight on what he come back to that a little later in my contribution. has said. Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): We have had discussions on the points of concern to me, Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): Will the Minister and my right hon. Friend has given answers to three give way before he moves on? written questions today, which were helpful indeed. He will understand the importance of the point made by James Brokenshire: I would quite like to answer the the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen previous intervention before I give way again, and I Doughty): that these are significant powers for us to need to make some progress. grant in a democratic society. I believe my right hon. Friend has made the point in the past, but will he I can say to my right hon. Friend the Member for confirm today that the Human Rights Act trumps the Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) that the way in provisions in this Bill which the hon. Gentleman and I which agencies are required to act under the Bill means are most concerned about? that they cannot act in a way that is inconsistent with the convention rights, hence the importation by the James Brokenshire: I am grateful to my right hon. specific reference to the Human Rights Act on the face Friend for his intervention. Again, I intend to draw out of the Bill to underline that. It is important to state that this point during my contribution in the House this and be clear as to how the Bill operates and the protections. evening. He rightly highlights the import and implication The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) has of the Human Rights Act and what that then imports in tempted me, so I will give way one final time, and then I terms of the convention rights, which we are clear will make some progress, because I know that others provide restrictions and inhibitions on how agencies are want to speak. able to operate. Stewart Hosie: On the point that the Minister just Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) made in relation to the Human Rights Act, proposed (Con) rose— new section 29B(7) of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 in clause 1 and proposed new section 7A(6) Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con) of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Scotland) rose— Act 2000 in schedule 1, say, for example, that subsection X James Brokenshire: I will give way twice more and is then get into some of the important details that I know “without prejudice to the need to take into account other matters right hon. and hon. Members would like me to address. so far as they are relevant (for example, the requirements of the Human Rights Act 1998).” Sir John Hayes: The point surely is that as well as Why is it not more explicit that there is an obligation to proportionality and necessity, the Bill is particular about obey the Human Rights Act rather than simply referring specificity, so that those matters that lie outside the to it as an example? 655 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 656 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill James Brokenshire: The hon. Gentleman makes an James Brokenshire: The right hon. Gentleman, the interesting point. Some may argue that the inclusion of Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, makes those words was not of itself necessary, because those an important point when he draws that distinction. I agencies are already bound by that requirement. We say to him that, under the current regime, the Crown take the judgment, because of the very relevant points Prosecution Service will consider the prosecution of a that have been made during the course of the debate, properly authorised CHIS as perverse. So in essence, that being clear on the face of the Bill in that regard is the Bill will offer no practical difference in the application helpful. It is reassuring. It creates the context as to how of the power, because obviously the conduct will have this regime is intended to operate, and that is why it is to be properly authorised, as it does now. If something included in the way that it is. has not been properly authorised, then clearly the authorisation will not have effect. Where CHIS conduct Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Streatham) (Lab): Will the Minister is outside that authorisation, there will be no impact on give way? the ability to prosecute. Public authorities tightly limit the scope of CHIS criminal conduct, so this will not James Brokenshire: If the hon. Lady will allow me, I provide a licence to commit crime outside those stringent will make some further progress, but I will allow her to limits. In reality,the practical difference between providing intervene on me later. a defence and making conduct lawful is limited. Indeed, In order to build the credibility and trust of those we say that the provisions actually reflect broader provisions under investigations, there are occasions where, in carefully within the current legislative regime, governing all other managed circumstances and subject to robust independent aspects as well. There is a distinction, which the right safeguards, CHIS may need to participate in criminality hon. Gentleman makes, but in practice, we do not see themselves. This is an inescapable and essential feature that there is the fundamentals difference that perhaps of CHIS use and has always been fundamental to this some might wish to paint into it. work. Although I am unable to go into the detail about Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): One of the problems the specific criminality that a CHIS may participate in, that the Government have today is that, for those of us for reasons I will come to, limited examples have been who like the red meat of law enforcement and law and discussed in the public domain. For example, a CHIS order, the Minister has forced us to look inside the may be required to join the organisation that they are abattoir, and of course we do not like what we see. On seeking to disrupt. This membership alone will sometimes this point about stringent limits, will he explain why be criminal but will be deemed necessary and proportionate there is not more in the Bill to put those limits in place? to prevent more serious criminality from taking place. I cannot imagine Ministers will be authorising killing or Again, without going into the specifics, the use of that torture, so why are those things not in the Bill, so that tactic enabled the police and MI5 to disrupt a planned the public can have very clear confidence that they will terrorist attack on No. 10 and the then Prime Minister not be authorised? in 2017. The necessity of CHIS participation in criminal conduct has been accepted in the UK and around the James Brokenshire: I will come on to that issue—this world for many years. In December 2019, the Investigatory is why, although I wanted to give way to many Members, Powers Tribunal found that MI5 has a lawful basis for I wanted at the same time to make progress with my this activity and recognised that CHIS participation speech. I will not go into the limits of what can and formed an essential part of MI5’s core activities. I want cannot be done because of this issue of what is known to reassure the House that this Bill does not confer the as CHIS testing—providing a list against which sources power to carry out a new activity, but enables CHIS to can be tested, which has practical implications to it. continue to deploy the methods that they already use. What I can say to my hon. Friend is that I will come on Notwithstanding those powers, this Bill puts that existing to the import of the Human Rights Act in just a second, practice onto a clearer statutory footing, putting the if he will be patient. matter beyond doubt as to Parliament’s intentions. The Bill provides certainty for CHIS and their handlers and Bell Ribeiro-Addy rose— will augment our ability to recruit and retain in the future in this regard. It is important to stress that the James Brokenshire: I will give way to the hon. Lady, Bill does not change the position of CHIS who have who has been very patient. previously been properly authorised to participate in criminal activity. It has no retrospective effect. Bell Ribeiro-Addy: The Minister has talked about practices that are already permitted, but does he appreciate Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind): Can the that there are many,many questions about those practices? Minister explain one difference between the situation That is why there has been the Pitchford inquiry, which that has applied in the past and the situation that will has now dragged on for so long that it is about to be apply in the future if the Bill goes through as it is? We called something else. Are the Government not the are now legislating to make properly authorised criminal slightest bit concerned about laying down such a piece conduct lawful, rather than continuing with the current of legislation before the inquiry has reported, given the position whereby MI5 or another authorising authority history of agents provocateurs undermining progressive is able to argue that it would not be in the public interest movements such as our trade unions and deceiving for prosecuting authorities to prosecute properly authorised women in intimate relationships? All of these things criminal conduct, but there is no guarantee of immunity. have been carried out before, and people have major What we are now saying is that they are not breaking concerns about that. Will the Government explain why the law, rather than, as in the past, that they were they have no concerns whatsoever about laying down a breaking the law, but that it was against the public piece of legislation without having looked at what that interest to prosecute. Why the reason for that change? inquiry finds? 657 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 658 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady makes a serious operational and other reasons I will not go beyond what point. First, there is no retrospective effect—it is quite the convention says. There are very clear issues that I important for me to state that explicitly. Therefore, will now, I hope, come on to in that regard that will help actions that have occurred in the past and are subject to to draw this out. further inquiry, and potentially further criminal investigation, are untouched by the Bill. On the position Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con) rose— moving forward, I have explained the different safeguards. She refers to trade union activity. Trade union activity is James Brokenshire: I will give way one last time and lawful. I recognise some of the concerns expressed, and then make further progress. it is important that I state that in order to provide assurance. This is tightly bound—it is about providing Mrs Miller: I thank the Minister; he is being very the oversight, the governance and the proportionality generous. He has been clear that sexual assaults on and setting out the necessity of this for criminal justice, women such as the ones that have been referred to are security and other issues that I have already alluded to. I entirely prohibited and not allowed, but they have obviously am grateful to her for intervening to allow me, I hope, happened. In the past, those cases have been brought to be more specific on that point. forward for proper review. How will they be brought forward in future under this Bill? Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): On the previous intervention, there are real concerns about James Brokenshire: I have drawn out the separate women who are seeking legal redress for sexual assaults regime that operates in relation to the authorisation of, at the hands of police officers in the spy cops inquiry. for example, undercover officers, as well as the tight Can the Minister guarantee that if those situations were remit, the ambit and some of the additional oversight to occur again, survivors of sexual assault could seek that is provided in respect of that regime. Again, that is legal redress? all subject to the supervisory nature of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and can, therefore, as with the James Brokenshire: I can certainly say that there are provisions proposed through the Bill, be drawn out clearly ongoing inquiries in relation to this important through that route. However, I will hopefully make and sensitive issue. I have highlighted the lack of any some more progress and be able to get into how the Bill retrospection, and I point the hon. Gentleman to what works and some of the further assurances. I may not be has happened since then and what the police themselves quite as generous with interventions, so that I can have underlined in this regard. There is an enhanced hopefully make progress and let other right hon. and regime of what are known as relevant sources—in other hon. Members in. words, undercover police officers—and the criminal The Bill amends the Regulation of Investigatory Powers conduct authorisation is in addition to the regime to Act 2000 by inserting a new section to provide a power authorise and approve a CHIS covert source in the for public authorities to grant a criminal conduct first place. authorisation. Equivalent amendments are also proposed It has never been acceptable, as the police have said, to the equivalent legislation in Scotland, subject to for an undercover operative to form an intimate sexual ongoing constructive engagement with the Scottish relationship with those they are employed to infiltrate Government. and target, or who they may encounter during their A CCA may be granted only where it is necessary for deployment. This conduct will never be authorised, nor one of three statutory purposes: national security, the must it ever be used as a tactic in deployment. That is prevention or detection of crime, or in the interests of made clear through the code of ethics for the police as the economic wellbeing of the UK. It must also be well as the updated law enforcement agency undercover proportionate to what it is seeking to achieve, and operative authorised professional practice. consideration must be given to whether the objective I hope that I have explained what the Bill does and could be achieved by conduct that is not criminal. what it does not do, and therefore how it is quite These authorisations will be tightly bound and granted specific. On the point about what is on the face of the by a highly trained and experienced authorising officer. Bill, it is about locking in the existing regime and other They must also be compliant with our obligations under safeguards on the authorisation of a source in the first the Human Rights Act, including the right to life and place. That has to happen first, and then, if it is warranted, the prohibition of torture or subjecting someone to justified and fits within the boundaries of the Bill, there inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Again, is the criminal conduct authorisation that sits alongside I will expand a little further shortly. it, which has to be subject to the earlier authorisation. A CCA can also apply only where the deployment or Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) engagement of the CHIS has already been authorised (Lab): Does the Minister agree that sexual assault and under the existing section 29 of RIPA, and is subject to rape are clearly prohibited by article 3 of the Human the limits that that section provides. As such, there is a Rights Act? Does he recognise that the importance of two-stage process: first, the authorisation of the use of the Human Rights Act in providing a safeguard to this a CHIS and, secondly, the separate authorisation of Bill means that it would be helpful to hear wider support that source to carry out criminal conduct in the tightly for the purposes of the Act from across his Government, prescribed circumstances proposed by the Bill. not just from him on the Front Bench? It is worth highlighting that, alongside the Bill, we have published draft provisions of the CHIS code of James Brokenshire: Obviously there is the specific practice, which provides further detail as to how the reference on the face of the Bill that I have alluded to, authorisation process will work and the factors an and therefore there is that requirement. As the right authorising officer must consider before granting hon. Lady will know what the convention rights say, for an authorisation. To be clear, all authorisations are 659 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 660 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill precise and explicit. A CHIS will never be given unlimited morning by probably one of the best Directors of authority to commit any or all crimes. The effect of an Public Prosecutions of modern times, who would probably authorisation is to render the authorised conduct lawful. know more about this than all of us in this House? It This model is consistent with the approach we have was scathing about that analysis and said it simply did taken for other investigatory powers. Of course, where a not stand up? CHIS commits any criminality outside the tight parameters of the authorisation, the prosecuting authorities can James Brokenshire: I am happy to respond to that consider this in the normal way. point specifically. We are not suggesting that there is Members will understand that, because of the clandestine routine testing of suspected CHIS in all criminal groups, nature of their work, there are limits to what I can say but there is evidence that this does occur more than publicly about the role that CHIS play in saving lives infrequently, and I say that in clear terms. We are asking and property, without exposing sensitive information CHIS to put themselves in difficult positions to help the about their methods and techniques. I know that there state investigate these criminal groups, and it is our are concerns about the Bill somehow providing a licence judgment that we need to make sure that we can best to kill or to commit torture. Let me be clear that there protect them, and that means avoiding the provision of are upper limits to the activity that can be authorised a checklist of crimes that can be tested against. I note under the Bill, and those are contained in the Human that this risk is not just to CHIS, but to people who are Rights Act. That includes the right to life and the not CHIS but may be suspected of being so. prohibition of torture or subjecting someone to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. It is unlawful Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does my for any public authority to act in a way that is incompatible right hon. Friend agree that the independent commissioner, with the European convention on human rights, and established under the 2016 Act by this House, has, in the legislation makes clear that nothing in the Bill the 2018 report of the analysis on MI5 and other detracts from a public authority’s obligations under the agencies, written very positively about the processes, the Human Rights Act. Therefore, an act that would be applications for CHIS and the rigour that these incompatible with the ECHR could not lawfully be organisations go through? It is important that the House granted under this Bill. realises that these processes are rigorous, detailed and already in place. We do not believe, however, that it is appropriate to draw up a list of specific crimes that may be authorised James Brokenshire: Yes, and I am grateful to my right or prohibited. To do so would place in the hands of hon. Friend for making that point. With his experience criminals, terrorists and hostile states a means of identifying as a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, he our agents and sources, creating a potential checklist knows the importance of these national security issues for suspected CHIS to be tested against. That would in the context of Northern Ireland. He is right, and this threaten the future of the CHIS capability and result in point about safeguards and oversight is precisely what I an increased threat to the public. Protecting CHIS from was about to come on to. It is about the rigorous and prosecution will have achieved little if we cannot also careful way in which the agencies operate and the focus protect them from being identified by the terrorist and that they attach to this, as shown in the response the criminal groups they inform against, placing them at commissioner provided in his 2018 report and equally personal risk. by the Investigatory Powers Tribunal when it reflected on this. Stephen Doughty: I am listening very carefully to what the Minister is saying, but will he be clear? This is Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Will all predicated on our continued membership of the the Minister give way? European convention on human rights and on the Human Rights Act staying as it is, and at the moment James Brokenshire: I will give way, but this is probably we have an Attorney General who has made very clear the last time as I am conscious of time and of getting her intentions towards both those instruments. Can he others in. make it clear that we will stay in the ECHR and that the Human Rights Act will stay as the bedrock of the Liz Saville Roberts: In the 2018 report by the Investigatory guarantees on this, but also that other international Powers Commissioner, one of the issues that raised conventions we are signatories to, including the convention concern was the sheer prevalence of human error. We against torture, would also apply in restricting actions are rolling this out to further Departments. Surely, we that could be authorised under this Bill? are also rolling out the potential for further human error. James Brokenshire: I have been pretty clear about the way this Bill operates and the manner in which agencies James Brokenshire: The right hon. Lady makes an and the different bodies that can be authorised are able important point about training and about ensuring that to act. Clearly, I cannot bind this House for the future, the high standards necessary here are applied. I would but I am very clear that we stand by our ECHR say to her that, equally, such focus needs to be applied commitments, which is why this has been expressed in to those who operate this regime in order to get this the way that it has in the Bill. I hope that is helpful to right because of the potential criminality that sits alongside him. it. There are obligations to report errors to the commissioner, and equally the commissioner will report on those too. Mr David Davis: What my right hon. Friend has Rigorous standards are necessary to ensure that criminal described is, in effect, a wish not to provide a terrorist conduct authorisations are made appropriately and well, checklist, as it were, to test a member of such an and the way in which that operates now and will operate organisation. Did he read the article in The Times this for all agencies—whether the Security Service, policing 661 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 662 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [James Brokenshire] concurrent assessments. Will the Minister look again at the potential for amendments on authorisation and or some of the other agencies—is subject to that clear very timely oversight, and on strengthening the measures oversight, and the Bill draws that out and makes it on Investigatory Powers Commissioners, so that it is explicit. possible to get the details of the legislation right? As I have said, it is important to state that, in view of the restrictions on what can be disclosed publicly, the James Brokenshire: Obviously, we will have continued Government also recognise the importance of robust debate during the passage of the Bill. I believe that it independent oversight. The authorisation of CHIS provides strong oversight and governance, but I will participation in criminal conduct is and will continue to continue to reflect. Judicial approval is an important be subject to this robust oversight of the Investigatory safeguard for the operation of some of our investigatory Powers Commissioner. The IPC— powers; however, it is not the only way to provide a robust oversight of a power. It is important to recognise Mr Mitchell: Will the Minister give way? the context of this: we are talking about human beings. James Brokenshire: I am very conscious that I am Some challenging issues operate around this space, now eating into the time of others who may wish to which is why we judge that robust retrospective oversight speak, so I will perhaps make some more progress, and is the right approach, but I will keep the timeliness of we will see where we get to. that, and how it operates, under reflection so that perhaps further reassurance can be provided, specifically The Investigatory Powers Commissioner,and his judicial on the point of how soon oversight can occur after an commissioners, have all held high judicial office. The authorisation has been made. current IPC, Sir Brian Leveson, was most recently president of the Queen’s bench division and is entirely Mr Mitchell: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, independent of Government. The commissioners are who is being generous. At what level will the original supported by expert inspectors and others, such as authorisation take place in the various organisations? technical experts, qualified to assist the commissioners From reading the Bill, it seems to me that the level in the in their work. police is a relatively junior police officer. In view of the The IPC conducts wide-ranging inspections of public seriousness that such authorisation leads to, should it authorities and publishes an annual report on the findings not be given at chief constable level, and why can it not from those inspections. The IPC himself sets the frequency be given through a warrant overseen by a judge? of those inspections, and public authorities are required to provide unfettered access to documents and information. James Brokenshire: I have responded to the latter The Bill strengthens the IPC’s role by providing that the point on the judgment that we have made in relation to IPC must explicitly keep CCAs under review and include this regime and how we believe that deep retrospective information on the use of them in his annual report. oversight is the right approach. This is distinct from The most recent report from the IPC found that in all phones or cameras. The use of CHIS requires deep instances MI5’s authorisations of CHIS participation expertise and close consideration of the personal qualities in criminal conduct were proportionate to the anticipated of that CHIS, which then enables very precise and safe operational benefits and met a high necessity threshold. tasking. There are different elements to how this Further, the Intelligence and Security Committee of operates, and the experience and highly trained nature Parliament has statutory responsibility to oversee the of the authorising officer in some ways informs the UK intelligence community.Hon. and right hon. Friends relevant authorising level that is specified within the on the Committee have a vital role in scrutinising the guidance. Robust retrospective oversight is provided work of the intelligence agencies, and I am grateful to equally by the commissioner himself, to give further the Committee for its support for the legislation and assurance. welcome its expertise as the House considers the Bill in If I may, I shall turn to a separate point about specific detail. I also note that Select Committees will equally public authorities’ ability to grant a criminal conduct play an important role in scrutinising the work of law authorisation. The RIPA already lists a range of public enforcement and wider public authorities. authorities that use CHIS for general investigative purposes. Far fewer public authorities will be able to grant a Yvette Cooper rose— criminal conduct authorisation. Only those public James Brokenshire: On that note, I give way to the authorities that have demonstrated a clear operational Chair of the Home Affairs Committee. need for the tactic are able to use the power. These are the intelligence agencies, the police, the National Crime Yvette Cooper: I am very grateful to the Minister, Agency, the armed forces, Her Majesty’s Revenue and who has been very generous with his time. Clearly he Customs and 10 other public authorities. Pausing makes the case that we need to continue with covert momentarily on this list, I want to highlight the role intelligence, particularly on extremist groups that may that these wider public authorities also have in investigating be proscribed. Associating with them in any way is and preventing serious criminal activity.The Environment currently a crime, so clearly he makes a strong case for Agency, for example, investigates the illegal dumping of legislation to ensure that such intelligence can continue toxic waste that can permanently harm our environment. in the interests of national security. I know that he The Serious Fraud Office investigates complex fraud recognises, though, that having safeguards is also in the cases that risk costing the public millions of pounds. interests of national security and of the intelligence The Food Standards Agency investigates deliberate agencies and the police. mislabelling and the sale of unsafe food to the public. The safeguards in place on the Investigatory Powers HMRC tackles the money laundering and trafficking of Commissioner in the Bill are still very vague. It is very illicit goods that would risk significant damage to the broad and very much retrospective, as opposed to economy. 663 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 664 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill We expect the wider public authorities to have only achieve. The issue is how we ensure that vital work limited use of this power, because a criminal conduct continues, but on a statutory footing and with the authorisation can be granted only where it is necessary strong safeguards that are also vital. and proportionate to the criminality it is seeking to I have listened carefully to what our law enforcement frustrate. There will, however, be occasions where CHIS agencies have said about covert human intelligence sources. will be critical in providing the intelligence to prevent, The Minister referenced the director general of MI5, detect and prosecute serious crimes. This is increasingly who has said that important as organised crime groups expand into areas overseen by these public authorities. “Since March 2017, MI5 and Counter Terror Police have together thwarted 27 terror attacks.” This is an important and necessary Bill— His judgment was that Mr Steve Baker: Will the Minister allow me, before he “Without the contribution of human agents, be in no doubt, finishes? many of these attacks would not have been prevented.” James Brokenshire: I will, for one final time, then I To be clear, that activity is saving lives by stopping will wrap up. terrorist attacks on people. I have also considered the wider data available, Mr Baker: I am extremely grateful. He mentioned the particularly on the National Crime Agency. In 2018, for armed forces very briskly there. Could he clarify why example, covert human intelligence operations disrupted the armed forces might need to engage in criminal threats to life, arrested serious criminals, seized thousands conduct? I suspect it is because they each operate their of kilograms of class A drugs, safeguarded over own military police, and that those police might need to 200 vulnerable people, and took firearms and rounds of have covert operations, but I would be grateful if he ammunition off the streets. I also appreciate the role clarified that, because there will be suspicious souls out that covert human intelligence sources play in addressing there worrying that there is some other motive for the heinous crimes such as child sexual exploitation, and armed forces being authorised to break the law. organised crime such as black markets in, among other things, vital medicine. We on the Opposition side of the James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend highlights one House recognise the importance of that work. particular aspect of the role of the Ministry of Defence. It is difficult to go into detail, but one further example I At the same time, though, that work has not been on would give is that it might be necessary to access a a statutory footing. Frankly, it should be, alongside proscribed organisation. As I say, the reporting regime formal safeguards. This activity is not new; it has been is quite specific. Indeed, the oversight that is envisaged—and going on under existing practices for many years, and it the oversight in the existing legislation—draws this out should be on a statutory footing because that will allow quite carefully and clearly for the issues that I have for the necessary and robust safeguards that we on the highlighted, on proportionality and necessity, as well as Opposition Benches will be pressing for. It should be on those specific aspects in the Bill, stating that it can relate a consistent and clear basis, and a system with clear only to national security, criminality and economic protections should be in place. As we put this system on wellbeing. It has to anchor to those three elements, as to a statutory footing, it is a moment to be clear about well as to the Human Rights Act application that we what we expect of those engaged in this conduct and the have debated at length this evening. standards we should set; as this Bill passes through the This is an important and necessary Bill. It is not House, it is a moment to detail not just those standards, about providing agents with an unfettered ability to but how we expect them to be implemented. That is why break the law and commit any crime. There are strict we in the Opposition will not be voting against this Bill requirements that must be satisfied, and robust and tonight, but feel it should move to Committee for independent oversight will be in place. The Bill is really consideration and improvement. looking to achieve just one thing, which is to ensure that I know that there are deep concerns about the safeguards our intelligence agencies and law enforcement bodies in this Bill and it is to that crucial issue I now turn. The with important intelligence functions are able to continue matters we are dealing with today are difficult for any to utilise a tactic that has been, and will continue to be, Parliament; they are deep and serious questions for any critical to keeping us all safe. Accordingly, I commend democratic society, and raise critical issues that the the Bill to the House. Government will need to address as the Bill progresses through the House and the other place. It is crucial, too, 6.44 pm that there is public confidence in what our security Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): I am grateful services and other agencies that use covert human to the Minister for his opening speech, and for his intelligence sources actually do with regard to authorised briefings and approach to this Bill. He has been generous criminal conduct. I entirely accept that an agent embedded with his time and I appreciate that. in a proscribed organisation is committing an offence every day by virtue of being part of it, but is doing so First, I thank our police and security services, the for the purpose of thwarting plots and stopping greater National Crime Agency and wider law enforcement for loss of life. I appreciate that, but it is still vital that the the work they do in keeping us safe. Those on the wider framework under which they operate has trust frontline put themselves in danger every day to help and confidence. others, to protect us and to prevent loss of life. That work is vital and in the national interest, and we thank them for what they do on our behalf. Weon the Opposition Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Does the Benches recognise the importance of that work, and of hon. Gentleman agree that Members of this House, covert human intelligence sources and the results they when considering this Bill, should take comfort from 665 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 666 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Theresa Villiers] Food Standards Agency; from my experience—not personal experience, I hasten to add—of a case that involved the fact that we have one of the most rigorous and waste theft and the Environment Agency, the lead was toughest oversight regimes in the world for regulating the police, and the Environment Agency worked across our intelligence services? agencies. I want some assurance as to why it is necessary for the Food Standards Agency or the Environment Nick Thomas-Symonds: I of course welcome the oversight Agency, for that matter, to have a lead in these situations. that has been introduced for our intelligence services; the situation is very different from how it was in decades Nick Thomas-Symonds: I was relieved to have the past. However, that does not detract from the additional reassurance that my right hon. Friend’s experience did safeguards that are needed in this specific Bill. not involve him personally, but he is entirely right about Under the Bill as it stands—I am quoting, because I the reassurances that are necessary in terms of each and want to press the Minister on this point—authorisations every case. for participation in criminal conduct may only be granted As the Minister has said, there is a section 19 certification “if it is necessary (a) in the interests of national security; (b) for from the Home Secretary on the face of the Bill regarding the purpose of preventing or detecting crime or of preventing its compatibility with convention rights. In addition to disorder; or (c) in the interests of the economic well-being of the that, I note that in clause 1, what will become the new United Kingdom.” section 29B(7) of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers The Government need to be clear about what is within Act 2000 mentions the Human Rights Act 1998 specifically. the scope of that framework. It cannot and should not There is a real need for reassurance on this issue, so that encompass any lawful activity, nor should we allow the public and the House know that the most heinous of mission creep in the years ahead. crimes will not be carried out in the name of this I hope the Minister would agree that a Bill such as Government or, indeed, any other future Government. I this one should have no business whatsoever interfering appreciate that the European convention on human with the legitimate and lawful work of our trade union rights protects the right to life and is clear about the movement, which is a cornerstone of our democracy prohibition of torture or, indeed, subjecting anyone to and a bastion of rights. I welcome what the Minister inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, and said in answer to an intervention—that trade union that is important, but the Government need to be activity is legitimate and lawful and therefore is not crystal clear about their intention for when the courts within the ambit of the Bill—but some concerns have come to consider this legislation, as they inevitably will. been expressed that the words I quoted referring to We cannot have any doubts about the Government’s economic interests could refer to the legitimate work of intention or Parliament’s intention. trade unions. I would welcome it if the Solicitor General, I accept that it is important that the Human Rights when he responds to the debate, could repeat the Minister’s Act is, unusually, mentioned on the face of the Bill, and assurance that trade unions are not meant to come I notice that the accompanying memorandum sets out within the ambit of those words. the following: In addition to the test of necessity, the authorisation “Section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 makes it unlawful may be granted only where it is for public authorities to act in a way which is incompatible with “proportionate to what is sought to be achieved by” Convention rights.Nothing in this Bill detracts from that fundamental position. Authorising authorities are not permitted by this Bill to the conduct. I welcome and note the test of necessity authorise conduct which would constitute or entail a breach of and proportionality. Nothing should be authorised in those rights.” contravention of the European convention on human What we cannot have is a position, referred to by the rights, to which I will return in a moment. But first the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden Government must justify the need for each and every (Mr Davis), in which any argument is put on the agency and body listed in the Bill—what powers, what Government’s behalf in courts or tribunals that this purpose. Nobody expects details on ongoing system is not in place covering the activities of covert investigations—of course we do not—but a sense of the human intelligence sources, or that this system is somehow type of issues expected to arise is crucial to enable free or exempt from Human Rights Act considerations. the House to consider that list properly and whether the Nor could we have a situation where there are deliberate presence of the organisation on the list is necessary. attempts to prevent the Human Rights Act from coming In answer to an intervention from the right hon. into play.That is why we will be pressing the Government Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), on public limits and on their position regarding those who is no longer in his place, the Minister mentioned, limits on criminal activity to be authorised. with regard to the Food Standards Agency, mislabelling and unsafe food. We need more detail on that and the Mr David Davis: Does the hon. Gentleman agree links to organised and serious crime. Similarly, the that, by not specifying in terms, the Government are Gambling Commission is another example, and it is inviting a challenge to the whole Bill, not under the absolutely clear as to why that is on the list. I do not Human Rights Act but under the torture convention? propose to go through the list one by one; suffice it to The international view of torture is more absolute than say that each and every one needs to be justified. the international view of murder. Therefore, I think it highly likely that if the Bill goes through as it stands, the Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): As a member Government will be facing the courts within the next of the Intelligence and Security Committee, I have seen year, losing their case and having to rewrite the Bill. how the security services conduct these activities in detail in some cases. When I saw the Bill and the list of Nick Thomas-Symonds: The right hon. Gentleman is organisations, I was a bit shocked, to be honest. The absolutely right. If the Bill does not have those safeguards Minister made the argument for the inclusion of the on its face as it should, it will simply be successfully 667 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 668 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill challenged in our courts. It is in nobody’s interests for Given the nature of some of the networks that the that position to pertain, which is why I am making this Bill looks to disrupt, there are also clear concerns about point, on which I hope we can work on a cross-party the gendered impact of actions by covert human intelligence basis. sources. The Government must seek to uphold the highest possible standards on gender impact. We will be Julian Smith: In its legal adjudication on the third pushing for such safeguards as the Bill moves forward, direction earlier this year, a majority on the Investigatory particularly in relation to rape and sexual violence. Powers Tribunal—the special tribunal overseeing the Members have also rightly expressed concerns about intelligence services—found that the oversight powers the risk of a disproportionate impact on black, Asian currently given to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and other ethnic minority communities. We will push provided for safeguards on that, too, as the Bill progresses. When “adequate safeguards against the risk of abuse of discretionary the Solicitor General winds up, I hope he can also power”. provide assurances about the work being undertaken by It is important in our debate on the Bill to recognise law enforcement to address that and commit to publishing those comments in that judgment, which is partly the full and extensive Equality Act 2010 assessments. reason that the Government have introduced the Bill. On those who make decisions to authorise criminal conduct, the memorandum on the European convention Nick Thomas-Symonds: The right hon. Gentleman on human rights supplied with the Bill states: refers to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, an issue to which I will return in a moment, but what he is “The Bill strengthens the current legal position by putting the power to authorise criminal conduct by a CHIS on an explicit actually referring to is one of the instances where the statutory footing.” Government have tried to argue that the Human Rights Act did not apply. It is precisely for that reason, and A legal framework is needed—I am clear that this because such arguments were raised in the past, that I activity should not continue in the shadows without am raising the point that I am. clear accountability—but at present there is self- authorisation in the Bill. Stephen Doughty: My hon. Friend is making an excellent If the police were to enter the property of any Member speech. I understand that one of the filings that the of this House, they would need a warrant to do so Government put to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal beforehand. I appreciate that things in this sphere move said that at speed, but in a number of areas of law we have judges “the state, in tasking the CHIS…is not the instigator of that available 24 hours a day who can offer services and give activity and cannot be treated as somehow responsible for it…it judgments on things such as emergency injunctions, so would be unreal to hold the state responsible.” we will press that issue of prior judicial oversight. The Does he share my concern about the various get-out more serious the crime authorised, the more senior the clauses for the Government in these powers, and does level of authorisation necessary—the right hon. Member he agree that it is better to have a public limit and for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) made that point—subject safeguards, as they do in Canada for example, on a to that oversight, and there needs to be assurance that number of such activities? the standards that this House sets will be adhered to and implemented. Nick Thomas-Symonds: I agree entirely with my hon. Clause 4(3) amends section 234 of the Investigatory Friend, both on the Canada model and on the point, Powers Act 2016 to require the Investigatory Powers which I put to the Government, that we cannot have a Commissioner to include information about public situation in future where there is any doubt about what authorities’ use of criminal conduct authorisations in was meant on the face of this Bill. We cannot have the its annual report. It is stated that that will include Government having put forward on their behalf the statistics on use of the power, the operation of safeguards, argument that the Human Rights Act somehow does and errors, which I will come back to in a moment. not apply. I appreciate that that requirement is subject to the Mr David Davis: The Government should not rest existing protections in the Investigatory Powers Act for too hard on an IPT judgment. It is normal in these information that relates to national security. I also intelligence oversight commissions to have unanimity appreciate that public authorities will have to disclose from the judges. In this case it was a 3-2 judgment, and all documents necessary to the Investigatory Powers the minority in that judgment described the Government’s Commissioner. However, as it stands, the requirement is argument as “fanciful” and “extraordinary” and as too vague, as was pointed out by the Chair of the Home setting “dangerous precedents”, so I do not think they Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member should rest on that at all. for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). The requirement must involve more than the inclusion Nick Thomas-Symonds: No, and the right hon. of a section or some sort of confidential annexe in the Gentleman illustrates precisely the point I am making. commissioner’s annual report. There is no reason why, That is why the position has to be crystal clear. We for example, categories of crime cannot be published cannot have a situation where such arguments are being without compromising operational security. Every single put in written submissions, or in other ways, before a authorisation should be notified to the commissioner, tribunal or indeed any other court. The public limit—this who can then provide ongoing oversight. That seems to reassurance—is so important because, as I have said, if me to be a far more effective way of giving reassurance the Government do not get it right, and if they are not on the operation of safeguards and of ensuring that crystal clear on issues such as murder, torture and where there are errors—again, I will return to that— sexual violence, they will get into trouble in the courts in something can be done immediately to ensure that such any event. a mistake does not happen again. It seems to me that if 669 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 670 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Nick Thomas-Symonds] my union, the Unite union, and its financial support for my election campaign to this House. I appreciate that this is looked at only on an annual basis, there is more the Bill is a narrow one on criminal conduct, rather scope for errors to be built into the system. I do not than the wider issue of when an undercover policing think it is unduly onerous for each and every authorisation operation begins, but since the blacklisting scandal to be notified to the commissioner. surfaced over a decade ago, it is clear that these are not I also see no reason why Members of this House—I merely allegations. I appreciate that, in relation to mean the Intelligence and Security Committee, which blacklisting in the construction industry, we have seen a deals with sensitive information all the time—cannot substantial out-of-court settlement, and there are ongoing have more detail about the use of this power and in proceedings. However, Deputy Assistant Commissioner what context. Again, that would give far greater reassurance Martin’s findings in the Metropolitan police’s internal about the use of the power over time and public confidence investigation stated: in it. “The report concludes that, on the balance of probabilities, the In addition, there is the issue of redress and civil allegation that the police or special branches supplied information is ‘proven.’ Material revealed a potentially improper flow of claims for wholly innocent victims. In the memorandum information from Special Branch to external organisations, which on convention rights, the Government state: ultimately appeared on the blacklist.” “The individuals who are most likely to be affected by the That is a hugely serious issue. The Government should criminal conduct of a CHIS are those with whom the agent is engaging in order to thwart the criminality.” be on notice that we will not hesitate to raise this and hold Ministers to account on the involvement of our That may be, but the key words there are “most likely”. law enforcement in the disgraceful process of blacklisting. What about a wholly innocent person who ends up with material or other loss as a consequence of the actions of Mr Davis: I also declare an interest: a member of my a covert human intelligence source? family was blacklisted. This concern is not confined to The position in the Bill is that a complaint can be the Labour party.The probable handing on of information made to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner with from special branch is something that needs to be regard to these powers, which can be independently resolved as part of the honour of our country. considered. I appreciate that the Investigatory Powers Tribunal has the jurisdiction to determine complaints Nick Thomas-Symonds: I am grateful for the right against public authorities’ use of investigatory powers, hon. Gentleman’s support in that matter, and I am including the use of covert human intelligence sources, happy that the Minister has made clear that this legislation but that is not the same as a proper civil claim. What if has no impact on the search for justice in relation to the authorised criminal act is botched? What if there is that appalling practice. mistaken identity? Again, that is something that we will press in Committee. The aim of this legislation should be to keep people safe and bring dangerous criminals to justice. I appreciate While there is a narrow but fundamental part of the the assurance that this does not, and is not designed in Bill about authorising criminal conduct, I want to talk any way to, disrupt legitimate and lawful trade union about some wider issues. In relation to Northern Ireland, activity. Should any Bill do that, it would be opposed by it must be clear that legacy issues are not affected by the Labour Members. Bill in the context of the peace process. On the issue of past injustices, I am grateful to the Minister for setting Bell Ribeiro-Addy: From listening to the arguments out again that this is not a retrospective Bill, but it has that have been made, it strikes me that the Bill is to be clear that those seeking justice for what happened presumably intended to protect undercover officers from in the past can still do so. We on the Labour Benches facing prosecution in a situation where they should not, are committed to a full, independent public inquiry into because they are doing their work. More experienced the events at the Orgreave coking plant on 18 June 1984. Members might be able to give me examples of situations It will only be by shining a penetrating light on the where officers have faced prosecution in those circumstances, events of that day that we can have justice, and I but I certainly cannot think of any. A few weeks ago, commend those who have been campaigning on it for during our debate on the Overseas Operations (Service so long. Personnel and Veterans) Bill, we were told about There is an ongoing inquiry into undercover policing— ambulance-chasing lawyers, and I am wondering whether the so-called spy cop scandal, referred to by my hon. we will now hear about police-chasing prosecution services. Friend the Member for Streatham (Bell Ribeiro-Addy)— chaired by Sir John Mitting. The evidential hearings Nick Thomas-Symonds: I certainly would never use open next month, and it has to be clear that divisive rhetoric about those before our courts who are recommendations from that inquiry will be implemented protecting people’s rights; we should be absolutely clear and victims will not be denied access to justice.I appreciated about that. This Bill is on the narrow issue of criminal the Minister’s reassurance that such appalling behaviour conduct. It should not and would not have anything to was never lawful in the past and will not be lawful in the do with trade union and lawful activity, and if it ever future. We must never stand to one side on issues like did, it would, of course, be strongly opposed. On my this. We commit again to pressing for justice for all hon. Friend’s final point, existing practice versus what victims. The delays in the existing inquiry have been happens now is a very important issue. At the moment, unacceptable. Victims have been put through a terrible this happens in the shadows: it happens where prosecuting ordeal, and the least they deserve is access to justice. authorities are given specific information and the I also want to talk about the practice of deceitful and prosecutions simply do not take place. This should be unlawful blacklisting. In doing so, I refer to my entry on a proper statutory footing, with the safeguards we into the Register of Members’Financial Interests regarding are arguing for. 671 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 672 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill Labour’s commitment is to work in the national 3-2 majority, thus illustrating the point well known to interest to keep people, their families, their community the Intelligence and Security Committee that the switch and the country safe. That is why I have taken the of a single vote can dramatically change even a carefully approach I have with the Bill. Werecognise the importance pre-planned outcome. [Laughter.] The ISC welcomes of this activity being on a statutory footing, which is the principle behind the Bill to put existing powers to why I will not be opposing the passage of the Bill today. authorise criminal conduct, in certain circumstances, However, in Committee we will look to press the on to an explicit statutory basis. Government on their position. We will hold Ministers One of our predecessor Committees was told in 2016 by to account, seeking to improve the Bill on the vital issue the then director general of MI5 that CHIS agents are of safeguards, so that the public can have confidence in “the intelligence collection asset that we could not operate without. the process, while law enforcement bodies can carry out They give you insight that technical intelligence cannot give”. the vital work of keeping us all safe. Despite necessary redactions, the 2017-19 ISC’s own Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am report on Northern Ireland-related terrorism, presented going to start with a time limit of nine minutes, which is to Parliament today, although it was drafted before I advisory. I put on a time limit of nine minutes so that no rejoined the Committee, convincingly concludes at individual Member is encouraged to take dozens of paragraph 39 that: interventions and therefore take 20 minutes. I hope that “While there are, rightly, concerns that criminal activity may that will be roughly about right to ensure that everybody somehow be being legitimised, the need for such authorisations is gets a decent chance to speak on this extremely important clear. What is key is that authorisations are properly circumscribed, used only where necessary and proportionate, and subject to issue. proper scrutiny.” Like its predecessor, the current ISC believes that these 7.11 pm authorisations are essential if innocent lives are to be Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind): Thank you, saved. Indeed, we have seen real examples where precisely Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall endeavour to set a that has happened—and where lives would definitely good example. have been lost if a courageous agent had been banned Both Front Benchers have begun this debate in a from participating in any criminal activity. solemn, sober and thoroughly non-partisan way. That is Naturally, this power must be properly circumscribed greatly to be welcomed. The Opposition Front Bench and must be used, as repeatedly stated, only where spokesman, the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas- necessary and proportionate. At later stages, consideration Symonds), referred briefly to the oversight role of the of the Bill will surely focus on how to apply necessity Intelligence and Security Committee. I can give advance and proportionality, but I urge colleagues in all parts of warning, as it were, that other members of the Committee the House not to seek too much specificity regarding will be referring—in particular, I believe, my hon. Friend what criminality meets those standards. Preventing agents the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard)—to at inside a criminal enterprise from engaging in a specified least one amendment the ISC will probably put forward, checklist of possible crimes would make their unmasking relating to accountability and oversight by the ISC, at a and potential execution very much more likely. It would later stage in these proceedings. be dangerously counterproductive to compile such a The work of the United Kingdom’s domestic and checklist. We need to remember that there is more than overseas intelligence agencies would be considerably one way for society to have blood on its hands. less complicated and decidedly less dangerous if we could rely solely on the technical triumphs which achieved 7.17 pm so much in Room 40 in the first world war, and via the Ultra organisation in the second. Sadly, that has never Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): Allow me to begin been the case and, as long as spying has existed, spies in by placing on the record my party’s gratitude to the human form have proven indispensable. Covert agents agencies covered by the Bill for the work they do to keep operate under extremely hazardous conditions inside all of us safe, and expressing our understanding and hostile organisations, or cells of organisations, where appreciation that in carrying out that work, there are discovery of their true identity and purpose could prove circumstances where the use of a covert human intelligence fatal. The explanatory notes accompanying the Bill source may be necessary. We accept that it can be describe the use of covert human intelligence sources as legitimate to perpetuate a harm in order to prevent a greater harm down the line, and while naturally attention “a key tactic in protecting national security and investigating is drawn to the police, the armed forces and the security serious crime”, services in this Bill, the inclusion of the other agencies and the operation of such agents as listed requires equal attention if we are to protect “a core part of security, intelligence and policing work”. people’s rights. It is hard to disagree with that evaluation. If it were I think it is a matter of fundamental principle, when known that CHIS agents could never engage in criminal we are dealing with the coercive powers of the state, activity in concert with the groups they are infiltrating, that we are right to proceed with the greatest of care. it would be simplicity itself for ruthless organisations to Although we accept that the Bill seeks to put on a legal devise techniques to flush them out and eliminate them. footing many activities that we know have always taken Until now, the security service has had an implied place, even if we have not known that they were taking power, derived from the Security Service Act 1989, to place, we know that often they have taken place to our authorise CHIS agents to take part in criminality. As we great discredit. Putting that on a legal footing, where have heard, last December the investigatory powers everyone knows the rules of engagement and the legal tribunal ruled in favour of MI5 in a case which challenged parameters within which those activities take place, is such authorisations. However, that ruling was by just a a positive. 673 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 674 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Richard Thomson] Government to those human rights backstops, it would be better to see those actions that are to be prohibited The Bill must do that in a way which ensures proper enshrined in the Bill. safeguards to protect rights, and which commands the We have heard about the possibility of a purity test support not just of Parliament but of the public at being used, and I can understand those concerns, but large. Scottish National party Members consider that that does not seem to an issue in either Canada or the the Bill still has some distance to go in that regard. United States of America, where just such legal prohibitions Although there are principles inherent to the Bill that are already in place. Without that, there are real concerns we can support, there are outstanding concerns that that the Bill could open the way to legitimising the mean that, while we will not be able to support Second subcontracting of activities that should not be carried Reading, we look forward to working with the Government out either by or on behalf of the state. I suggest to the to improve the Bill as it progresses. I will use the time Minister that if the provisions of the ECHR and HRA available to me to outline those concerns. are deemed sufficient, it would be beneficial to see that First, as the Minister well knows from his dialogue written more explicitly in the Bill, as that might provide with the Scottish Government, the Lord Advocate in further assurance. Scotland retains concerns about how aspects of this Bill By authorising law-breaking that is lawful for all might progress. I know there has been constructive purposes, we run the risk of creating an upper limit of dialogue between the Scottish Government and the UK illegality, in that it sets out the actions that are permitted Government; we welcome that, and we hope and expect without there necessarily being any restraint then on that it will continue. We hope those outstanding concerns whether or not the actions taken within that parameter can be addressed, allowing the legislative competence of legality remain legitimate,proportionate and appropriate. motion to be laid at Holyrood. We would therefore welcome further clarity from the I come on to the principles we can support. Subject to Minister on how Parliament might be assured that any qualifications regarding potential entrapment, no usage illegal actions authorised for this purpose can be taken beyond that which is reasonable and proportionate, and and still remain within those parameters, while also any viable alternatives being absent, it can, in certain being reasonable and appropriate, without going beyond circumstances, be reasonable to allow the law to be what is needed for that, even if it does not cross that broken in order to prevent a more serious harm from threshold that has already been permitted. taking place. But our questions today relate to what is Fourthly, if we are committing a harm to prevent a and is not reasonable, and how to ensure that the greater harm, that raises a fundamental question of safeguards of governance and scrutiny on that are legal liability. At the margins, the use of these powers adequate. As has been said by a few Members, the first could lead to adverse life-changing consequences for of those concerns relates to authorisation. The Bill, as it the innocent. If individual CHIS operatives are to be stands, would allow the authorisation of a CHIS by a exonerated from what in other circumstances would be senior and experienced officer within the organisation illegal actions, that might be understandable. What is authorising it. I hope hon. Members can see the potential less understandable is the manner in which the state conflict of interest there straightaway, no matter how may ultimately also be able to escape any liability for senior and experienced that authorising officer might that, and that is hugely problematic for us. be. As far as we are concerned, that is inappropriate. If there were to be a form of external authorisation, that would overcome that concern. We are willing to work Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): I thank we all with the UK Government to find a way that would understand and agree that keeping the public safe often permit that authorisation in a way that is reasonable, means difficult decisions, but the Bill in its current form proportionate, appropriate and with suitable independence. is weak where it needs to be strong—strong particularly on safeguards around sexual violence, torture and the Our second question relates to the reporting of the creep into anti-trade union practices such as blacklisting. authorisations and the planned use of a CHIS. An annual report to Parliament seems to us to be a wholly inadequate way of going about that. Reporting each Richard Thomson: I thank the hon. Lady for that instance to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s intervention. She makes a number of important points, Office can fulfil that role, as long as the reports happen and we will need assurances on those going forward. either in real time or as close to that as is operationally The situation is hugely problematic as it stands, and possible. We would very much welcome the Minister’s we do not believe that the Government should attempt observations on that. to escape their vicarious liability on this issue. Our third question relates to the scope of the illegality being authorised or rendered lawful for all purposes. Mr David Davis: I am following with interest what the The Law Society of Scotland has observed that potentially hon. Gentleman has to say, and, unusually, though he is there are no limits on the types of criminal conduct that an SNP Member I have a great deal of agreement with could be permitted under this authorisation, which him. However, in terms of civil liability, perhaps the raises the obvious concerns about the potential use of simplest test is to look at one of the worst cases in murder, torture and sexual violence. I understand the recent times, which is the Finucane murder. Whatever argument the Minister advanced about the prohibitions we think of Mr Finucane—I would have different politics that would be placed upon any such activities by compliance from him—he was an innocent party, but even more so with the ECHR or the Human Rights Act, which could were his three children and his wife, who were there act as backstops, but we on these Benches remain when a state-supported group—almost—murdered him unpersuaded on that. Given that there is some doubt as with 14 bullets over his Sunday lunch. That is a good to the long-term commitment of supporters of the demonstration of the point that, if this civil exclusion 675 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 676 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill applies, those innocent parties—the wife and children significant oversight measures, with the Investigatory of Finucane—would have no recourse. That surely cannot Powers Commissioner having significant powers of scrutiny be right. and oversight. I referred to my right hon. Friend the Member for Richard Thomson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), who rightly referenced for that intervention, and he makes the point very improvements of oversight over recent years. However, elegantly. If individuals are to be exonerated for actions it would provide further reassurance to colleagues from that have been authorised, where is the redress for the all parts of the House if those oversight measures were innocent whose lives are impacted? It is right to look at strengthened further to include an annual report to the the extremities in terms of where that might lead us. Intelligence and Security Committee on the use of In giving the state the ability to uphold rights, we those authorisations, broken down by each organisation accept that we must also give it the ability to have the Committee oversees and by the category of the limited powers of coercion to uphold those rights. conduct authorised. The Committee will be looking However, those powers must never be in conflict with potentially to table an amendment to the Bill as it the fundamental rights of individuals. In terms of the progresses through the House, although the Government Bill, the only way we can ensure that is through good are at liberty to listen to some of the comments that are governance, effective scrutiny, limited scope and clarity being made today. I hope that amendment will reassure on the limitations; ensuring that there is accountability those on the Opposition Front Bench, as well. for the use of the powers; and limiting opportunities for I am also reassured that all authorisations will be their misuse. I believe those are legitimate concerns, compliant with the European convention on human which many will share, both inside and outside this rights, and rightly so. Indeed, I encourage all right hon. place, and we hope to see them addressed as the Bill Members and hon. Members to read the Government’s continues its passage. ECHR memorandum, which accompanies the Bill. Covert human intelligence sources are vital in the 7.27 pm fight against terrorism, as well as against serious and organised crime. They are a critical operational element Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I would like to for the security of the whole of the United Kingdom put on record my thanks to all those who serve in our and the whole of the Union. Given the improved oversight security agencies—they keep us all safe every day of and scrutiny, the important application of the test of every week—and to add my support for this important proportionality, the legislation’s compliance with the Bill. Human Rights Act and the European convention on Covert human intelligence sources, or agents, provide human rights, and with further amendments to it, I invaluable information to the UK’s intelligence agencies support the Bill. and those tasked with fighting serious and organised crime. These sources provide vital information—often time-sensitive—in saving lives. Even as I speak, they are 7.32 pm probably saving lives—lives not in the abstract, but real Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) lives; the lives and futures of men, women and children. (Lab): I am very pleased to be called this evening to We know that terrorists are no respecters of age, gender, make a short contribution in this Second Reading debate. faith, nationality or community. They seek to kill and to This is the first opportunity I have had to speak since maim, to divide, to terrorise and to spread misery and becoming a member of the Intelligence and Security fear. Committee, and I start by paying tribute to all who Covert sources disrupt plots, secure prosecutions and work in our security services to protect us and our give our intelligence agencies a critical human intelligence freedoms from those who do not operate under the rule edge. Let me be clear: this type of human intelligence of law and do not value our freedoms. work is unique and cannot, as we have heard from the We have heard at some length the background for distinguished Chairman of the Intelligence and Security why the Bill is necessary. People who infiltrate criminal Committee, be replicated through regulated signals or terrorist groups do so at great risk to themselves to intelligence or communication intercepts. Covert sources provide that unique source of intelligence. We know save lives. As the head of the Security Service recently that many terrorist and serious criminal acts have been said, without covert human intelligence sources many thwarted by that information. Innocent lives have been of the attacks planned over recent years would not have saved, including that of a current Member of this been foiled. Covert human intelligence sources deny House. Moreover, because of the largely criminal nature terrorists success. of the people under investigation, the individual is I think there has been some misunderstanding about sometimes required to participate in criminal activity some parts of this Bill. It seeks to put existing powers themselves. It is therefore important that organisations on an explicit statutory basis and existing practice on a such as MI5 protect those individuals who are putting clear and consistent statutory footing, and surely that themselves at such risk by authorising them to carry out should be welcomed by the House. I am very pleased criminal acts in certain limited circumstances and with that the Minister has been explicit today about safeguards. specific safeguards. They are needed, necessary and very welcome. The ISC can only comment on the organisations that For the record, I would not be supporting the Bill if it oversees: MI5, MI6 and GCHQ. The ISC strongly those robust safeguards and those meaningful checks supports the principle behind the legislation, and we and balances were not in place. Clause 4 should offer support the use of criminal conduct authorisations by reassurance to any colleague who still has concerns the security and intelligence agencies on the condition about oversight. In it, colleagues will find a reference to that they are properly circumscribed, used only where it 677 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 678 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Dame Diana Johnson] to gain the information that the authorities need to keep us all safe. In view of the largely criminal nature of is necessary and proportionate, in a way that is compatible people under investigation, covert agents are sometimes with the Human Rights Act and subject to proper required themselves to participate in criminal activities; scrutiny. As this is a Government Bill, it is for the we all understand that. If they do not participate in Minister to make the case for the specific provisions those activities, it will cause their loyalty to that group within it and to answer the legitimate questions and to be questioned. Suspicions will immediately be raised challenges of hon. Members, many of which he has and they could be in peril, or, sometimes, in mortal faced this evening. danger. It is therefore essential that covert agents are The Intelligence and Security Committee has taken able to participate in some criminal activity.Organisations evidence from the police in relation to a number of our such as MI5 need to be able to authorise them to do past inquiries, so I think the Committee would support so—obviously in certain circumstances and with the their use of the powers. I would, however, like to press safeguards that we hope to put in the Bill. the Minister, as other Members have already, on the list In order to decide whether to authorise such covert of bodies included in the Bill, some of which the agents to participate in criminal activity, intelligence Committee does not have oversight of, and for which it organisations will have to consider whether the anticipated is not immediately obvious why they should be given result of that involvement, which is getting information such power. that could help save lives—information rather than The Minister talked about the mislabelling of food as intelligence, because there is a difference—outweighs an example of why the Food Standards Agency, which the criminal conduct. This is a very fine balance, and it has already been raised with him, should be included in requires very, very experienced officers to make that the Bill. In the Bill Committee, we will really want to see judgment. Obviously, we all understand that this is an further information about the kind of cases that the ethical dilemma for us, but I accept that it is necessary Food Standards Agency would be dealing with that and I will be fully supporting the Bill. makes it appropriate for it to be in the Bill. The same goes for the Environment Agency, about which my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) 7.41 pm has already raised questions. What does the Minister Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): It is a pleasure think about other Select Committees having oversight to take part in this debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the areas for which they are responsible—the and I am grateful to be called to speak so early. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee having oversight with regard to the Food Standards Agency I listened very clearly to the Security Minister, and I and the Environment Agency, for example? am grateful to him for his thoughtful engagement with me and my hon. and right hon. colleagues in my party. Speaking personally, I would really like the Minister Although I think it is right that some of the issues have to give full consideration to what the Chair of the been raised in this debate, as they are worthy of further Home Affairs Committee and the shadow Home Secretary exploration, I want to place it on record that the Security have said about additional powers to strengthen the Minister knows that he has our support on Second oversight of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. I Reading. We look forward to thoughtful engagement am pleased that the Minister has already said that he is over the weeks to come. willing to look at the timing of that oversight, which could be quite important. I would also like to be reassured There have been references already to Northern Ireland about the authorisation procedures and the level at in this debate; the right hon. Member for New Forest which advance authorisations can be signed off within East (Dr Lewis) referred to the Intelligence and Security organisations. What level of experience and knowledge Committee’s report, which was published just today. It would he expect a person to have, and where will that be spans two years of activity, culminating just before the set out? election, and provides stark reading for those who I agree with what the hon. Member for The Wrekin believe that issues in Northern Ireland have moved on. (Mark Pritchard) said, and I hope that the Minister will It provides a very stark assessment of the proportion of look at giving additional responsibilities to the Intelligence MI5’s work that still pertains in Northern Ireland and and Security Committee to have oversight of the use of the fact that there is a need for that work. Those of us these powers. That could really help with the concerns who represent Northern Ireland understand that, while of parliamentarians about the use of the provisions by the security situation has evolved and got so much ensuring a level of ongoing parliamentary scrutiny. I better over the past two decades, MI5’s work is still hope that in Committee we can look at those proposals important to us. With that brings the need to operate in detail in order to achieve balanced and workable beyond the realm of what is legal in the truest sense—of legislation that safeguards those who put their lives at necessity our state is required to engage in acts that risk while upholding the rule of law, to which we all might not be considered lawful on the face of it. The subscribe. Security Minister has gone through very clearly and properly what is proportionate, what is necessary, and 7.38 pm the appropriate tests that are embedded in the process Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I am in awe of the by an authorising officer, who must be accountable for constant, cold courage of those who run huge risks for those decisions through the oversight that has been us as covert human intelligence sources; in fact, in a referred to earlier in the debate. That is crucially important. past life I was involved slightly. I am clear that covert During my short time in this Chamber—the past five agents play a vital part in disrupting terrorist plots, and years—I have referred to the incidents that have occurred they often save lives. It is vital that such agents gain the in my constituency, including the murder of a prison trust of those on whom they have to report if they are officer, and the attempted murder of a police officer 679 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 680 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill within the past year. I engage with that police officer issues, and understand that it would not be my intention, regularly. The fear and concern that arose as a result of nor is it my purpose, to say anything inappropriate in him being targeted going from his home to his local golf this debate. club with a device under his car because of his service in the Police Service of Northern Ireland highlights acutely Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Just to confirm, I am the dangers that still pertain within our society. certain that the hon. Gentleman has no intention of In the past six weeks, MI5 has had an extraordinarily saying anything inappropriate and that he is very careful, successful operation in Northern Ireland, and we now but because this is so sensitive, I simply reiterate that have within our prison system—not yet before the courts— there is a difference between that which is in the public almost the entirety of the New IRA’s army council. domain and that which is sub judice. I have the duty of That is a huge success. It was down to not only the urging that anything that is sub judice should not be bravery of our security services in Northern Ireland but mentioned in the Chamber. The hon. Gentleman has a covert human intelligence source. I am referring to already made his point very well, and it might not be open source data, so there is no concern about what I necessary for him to go into further detail. have shared. It has been raised within the courts. An agent of our state was embedded within the New IRA Gavin Robinson: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. and its political apparatus for over a decade. Being The point that I was making has been made, so I see no involved in what he was involved in—being a member need to re-emphasise it or to go over it again. The of the New IRA—is necessarily a criminal offence as it Minister has our support, and we will engage thoughtfully is a proscribed organisation. Holding information that with him as this Bill progresses. I ask the Minister to is of use to terrorists is a criminal offence. Booking a look at clause 1(5), which is amending part of RIPA, property that the army council was meeting in and where it outlines what is permitted within a criminal therefore enabling our security services to place listening conduct authorisation. I simply ask the question whether devices and so on in that property was crucially important. “for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime” That individual—just to encapsulate the dangers that sufficiently encapsulates issues of self-defence and whether come from this—has now left Northern Ireland and is that needs to be expounded more clearly. in protective custody. His name is in the public domain The Minister touched on the Bill not being retrospective. and there is no need for me to share it today. He is right that the Bill in itself is not retrospective, but I noted on the “Irish Republican News” website a it would be useful if the Solicitor General, in his concluding brief but quite explicit and chilling threat at the end of remarks, could touch on retrospective authorisation of its analysis of what happened following the individual’s criminal conduct. We know clearly from the Bill that, arrest. It says: when somebody is authorised as a CHIS, they can be “The apparent exposure of a leading double agent within authorised either at that time or subsequently for criminal Saoradh”— conduct. The question is not whether they are authorised in advance, but whether if they engage in criminal the political body— conduct that would require authorisation, that authorisation “recalls December 2005, when top Sinn Féin official Denis Donaldson can be given after the commission of the conduct. I was exposed as an MI5 agent.” hope the Solicitor General will refer to that. I do not see any preclusion of it, as there is nothing contained in the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. Bill that suggests it has to be in advance. Can it come I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be very careful after the conduct has been engaged in, and people are about matters to which he refers and individuals whom aware of that and an authorisation is sought for it? he identifies either by name or otherwise, because I Madam Deputy Speaker, time is marching on, and I know he fully appreciates that some matters are sub will let you proceed. Thank you very much. judice and some matters are under investigation, and that we have to be extremely sensitive in these circumstances. 7.51 pm

Gavin Robinson: I hope you appreciate, Madam Deputy Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): On 12 February Speaker, that not only do I agree entirely with you but I 1989, the solicitor Pat Finucane was shot 14 times as he have been very careful in what I have shared and I will sat down for dinner with his wife and three children in not delve beyond that which is public. his home in north Belfast. He died in front of them, and his wife Geraldine was seriously injured as well. The I just want to finish the quote about the case that 2012 review of the case by Sir Desmond de Silva, QC, occurred in 2005: concluded that two agents of the state, Brian Nelson “After four months living in isolation, he”— and William Stobie, were heavily involved in that brutal killing. This was a truly shocking finding, albeit that Sir Denis Donaldson— Desmond concluded that there was no overarching was shot dead in an attack claimed by another…IRA group”. state conspiracy to kill Mr Finucane. David Cameron That has to encapsulate for Members the severity issued an apology on behalf of the Government to the —the seriousness—of the danger that arises for those Finucane family, one of whom was of course elected to who engage on our behalf and who serve our country. this House last year. [Interruption.] I see that there seems to be some level of I am afraid this case shows the horrific consequences concern. Those who have listened to what I have said as that can result where decisions about agents are handled I have gone through it should have total comfort. Not badly, where clear and binding rules are not in place for only is what I have said appropriate, but they should handling covert human intelligence sources, and where also know me and the way in which I approach these proper oversight and accountability is not in place. But 681 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 682 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Theresa Villiers] dealing with? Honestly, no, it is not. The individuals who the police and other security agencies are engaging I can assure the House that, during my time as Northern with have to interact with people who are not pleasant. Ireland Secretary, I saw the clearest of evidence that That is the nature of the territory we are dealing with, modern police and security forces are utterly transformed and in order to keep their covers in place, those individuals since the appalling events that were the subject of the will have to engage in certain amounts of criminal De Silva review. That is especially true of agent handling activity. I have seen some examples of what they do; I and the legal framework that governs it now. What I saw am not going to go through them tonight, or refer to at first hand as Secretary of State was that today’s any of those cases, because that would be completely police and intelligence services have a rigorous focus on wrong. However, as has been referred to by the hon. compliance with legal and human rights requirements Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), the obvious in all aspects of intelligence gathering, including the use one is membership of a proscribed organisation, which of agents, so that is why I support the Bill this evening. would be deemed as breaking the law. Agents, as others have pointed out, provide invaluable We also need to highlight this idea that somehow, information and play a crucial role in disrupting terrorist authorisation of these things is a free-for-all. I welcome plots and serious crime. The simple fact is that we this legislation, because it will put on to a statutory would become far more vulnerable to, for example, footing something that is quite a grey area in its legal Islamist terrorist attacks if the intelligence services could position, but its opponents seem to think that there is no longer effectively use agents. More people would fall no control of authorisation at all. As the right hon. victim to terrorist attack. Certainly, the nature of the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) has just organisations these agents infiltrate unfortunately means outlined, the authorisations are very clear about what that sometimes it is simply impossible for them to can and cannot be done. remain in place and provide information without some For some unknown reason, a curveball has come into involvement in criminality. I wish this were not the case, this debate that I had not really expected: the idea that but I would provide the reassurance that we already this Bill will affect trade unions. I am not sure how it have one of the toughest and most comprehensive can do so. Likewise, regarding rape and serious sexual oversight regimes in the world for regulating our intelligence assault, I agree that those safeguards should be there, services. but I think they are already in the Bill. The individual This Bill will put that on an even clearer statutory who did the authorisation would not authorise that, footing by confirming the rules on authorisation of and if a CHIS who was involved in general activities agent criminal activity. The core principle underlying all undertook one of those acts, they would not get immunity our laws regulating intelligence gathering is that activities for doing it. Again, I think a lot of things have been can be carried out only if they are both necessary and thrown into the debate about this Bill that do not proportionate, and under this Bill, that golden thread actually apply to it. will continue to run through our rules on the use of agents and authorising criminal behaviour. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): While there are horrific legacy cases such as those of With regard to the appropriate checks and balances and Brian Nelson and William Stobie, there have been hundreds the need for authorisation to be proportionate and and hundreds of other men and women who have been necessary, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it agents whose story is very different. These are men and would be wrong to straitjacket our agencies? There women who have put their lives at risk to provide needs to be discretion. Our country works with judicial information to help the police and security services; discretion, whereby judges can depart in exceptional men and women who have saved many lives, but whose circumstances. Without knowing what will come, it bravery has to remain unacknowledged and untold for would not be appropriate to straitjacket the action that their own safety. We will never know their names, and may or may not be taken with regard to what is we will never hear their stories in this House, but for proportionate and necessary. their sake and in order to ensure that we can continue to combat the lethal threats we face from terrorism and serious crime, I urge this House to back this Bill in the Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman raises a good point Division Lobby this evening. about proportionality,which is key.Clearly the authorising officer will not authorise something if they know that it is disproportionate to the act, which was covered earlier 7.55 pm in the debate. I am also pretty confident about what is Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): In the fast- proposed in terms of the Investigatory Powers moving electronic age that we live in, I think there is a Commissioner, but like the hon. Member for The Wrekin misunderstanding that somehow, the state can beam (Mark Pritchard), I would like to go one step further. into everyone’s communications and listen to everything We need more detailed oversight in the ISC. It is not that is going on, and that that is the way in which necessarily about seeing individual warrants, but there modern-day intelligence is gathered. As outlined by the could perhaps be an annual report listing the categories right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), in which warrants were issued. That would be helpful that could not be further from the truth. The role of for us to look at, and if we wanted more information human intelligence is of vital importance, not only for about any of those, we could use the powers we have to our intelligence work in this country but for police work request that. We may well table an amendment on that in other areas. in Committee. As a member of the ISC, I have seen examples of I turn to the issue of the other organisations listed terrorism cases in which human intelligence has prevented in the Bill. There is a tendency sometimes, when civil the deaths of our citizens. Is this a pretty area we are servants see a piece of legislation, to jump on to it. The 683 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 684 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill list of organisations weakens the strong case for why we way as other intelligence gathering—for example,warrantry need this legislation. I have not yet heard a good justification —is. We cannot hope to micromanage such activity for why the Food Standards Agency needs these powers. from this House. The House and colleagues have to take My concern is that the police and the security services— comfort from the initiatives of the Intelligence and MI5, MI6 and others—are used to dealing with CHIS Security Committee, the application of the European and giving authorisation, and they have the training. convention on human rights to CHIS activity, and the The danger of extending this to other organisations is role of independent commissioners to provide rigorous that the expertise that comes from regular use is not oversight. The Bill is clear that these powers do not give there, and that concerns me. For example, the Environment carte blanche to agents. The Crown Prosecution Service Agency usually works in co-operation with the police, can still consider prosecutions for activities that fall and I would be happy for the police to have the lead in outside those that have been authorised. terms of CHIS, rather than the Environment Agency. Finally, it is vital to note, as my right hon. Friend the In Committee, we need justification for why all these Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers), the organisations need to be included and reassurance that former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, has just this is not a case of civil servants seeing this as a good stated, that the Bill is not retrospective and will not way to add some powers to a Bill. impact on any historical investigation. I support this Bill. This is a complex area, and some The women and men in our intelligence agencies, and of the things that we are asking individuals to undertake those who supervise and work with them, work behind are not pleasant, but it is vital work for keeping us safe. the scenes, are never publicly recognised. They are civil Like my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon servants of the highest quality and integrity, and I Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), I pay tribute to not believe the Bill will further strengthen their ability to do only the brave individuals who provide information but their work. the men and women of our security services who work day in, day out to keep us safe. 8.7 pm 8.3 pm Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I support York Outer (Julian Sturdy), who made a characteristically the Bill, and I congratulate the Security Minister on thoughtful, measured and knowledgeable contribution bringing his practical knowledge from many years to to the debate. It is a debate that I am very proud to be guiding the Bill through the House. I want to make four part of, because I think the House has approached this brief points on the security services. subject tonight in exactly the right way. I suspect that This Bill makes the ongoing function explicitly clear we have probably done that because of how the Minister in law, but it is really important that we fully understand opened the debate. I am also grateful to see him still in that there are already very clear processes in place his place.He sets a good example that others in Government regarding agent handling and how they interact with might do well to follow. criminal acts.As the third direction hearing and adjudication I am, however, a little bit weary when I consider this by the Investigatory Powers Tribunal showed, no further Bill, because it looks like almost yet another Bill into powers were required. It was just a win—it was 3-2—but which so many other things have been ladled, so that at the IPT said that it was lawful. The 2018 Investigatory the end of the day, after it has been through the other Powers Commissioner report, which is well worth reading, place, the Government might get what they want. The confirms that there is adequate guidance in place within right hon. Member for York Outer also has a history as MI5 regarding agent handling and that the then Prime a Government business manager and has no doubt been Minister directed the commissioner to ensure that that in meetings where he is given instructions to go and guidance was being enforced. The report also points to defend the indefensible, so that the Government can the quality of applications by MI5 for the use of CHIS, then concede the indefensible and might then be left noting that there are strong controls already in place. with what is defensible. I have to say, it is a tactic that is The second point is that this Bill builds on an already just a little bit tired and lacks subtlety and nuance. I rigorous oversight regime for our intelligence services. suggest that this is a good point at which the Government This stringent control environment has developed over might seek to do things differently. many years, but the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 Considering the importance of the matter, my real established a new single oversight body.The Investigatory frustration with this Bill is that it is a colossal missed Powers Commissioner has had a transformative impact opportunity. We all know the importance of putting on the level of oversight on all aspects of intelligence these things on a statutory footing, and it is a significant gathering. As IPCO’s annual reports show, the double advance that we should be doing so. However, that we lock on warrantry applications, for example, involves should do so in such a haphazard way, and which detailed interaction between the authorising Secretary compares so badly with other jurisdictions, such as of State and their officials, and IPCO and its judicial Canada, which has undertaken the same business in commissioners. Anybody who has been involved in the recent years, puts a duty on this House to engage with process will know that it is a very strong double lock. the Minister and to seek to improve the Bill at later The Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which is independent stages. of Government, provides a further independent appeal The House will be aware that I tabled a reasoned route, which is available to all at no cost. amendment, which was not selected. I did that because The third point, with regard to CHIS, agents and of the serious concerns I have about the Bill. In the criminality, is that this is an area of intelligence-gathering normal course of things, when a reasoned amendment activity that is invariably difficult to manage in the same is not selected, one considers whether it would be 685 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 686 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Mr Alistair Carmichael] to commit severe abuses such as torture, the Human Rights Act does not apply because—I quote from the appropriate to divide the House. On balance, I am Government pleadings— persuaded that that is not the right thing to do, but it is “the state, in tasking the CHIS…is not the instigator of that important that we should have the opportunity at later activity and cannot be treated as somehow responsible for it…it stages to give substantial consideration to three particular would be unreal to hold the state responsible.” areas. First, there is the inadequacy of the authorisation, It seems to me that the Government are pleading one and on that I can do no better than to quote the words case here tonight and a quite different and contradictory of Lord Macdonald, the former Director of Public case in the IPT. Prosecutions, from his article in The Times this morning. These are all matters to which we can return in He says: Committee. I think we must, and judging by what we “There is no comfort in allowing senior figures in the have heard from Government Back Benchers today, we police or the intelligence agencies the power to sanction almost certainly will. This is an important matter, which lawbreaking, without the need to first obtain independent it is good to have put on a statutory footing, but the way warrants from judges or some other authority. Under in which the Government are doing it is cack-handed. It this bill it will be easier for a police officer to commit a requires this House to do its job and to improve the Bill serious crime than to tap a phone or search a shed.” before it today. The second area that causes me serious concern is the total lack of any limitation on the offences that would 8.15 pm be covered. We are back in familiar territory here. This Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): It is not dissimilar to the territory we were covering when is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for we considered the Overseas Operations (Service Personnel Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) and my right and Veterans) Bill. Why would it not, for example, hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian include torture? I would say to the Government’s business Smith), both of whom made important and powerful managers that if, in Committee, this House were to speeches. I agree with what both of them said, and the introduce a limitation on murder, sexual offences and two are not irreconcilable. torture, the Bill would be virtually bomb-proof when it It seems to me that the Government, having brought got to the other place. forward a necessary and appropriate measure—it is Thirdly, there is the question of the scope. The Minister right to put these matters on a statutory footing—need referred, with quite disarming elan, to the “10 other to bear in mind the need to tighten up the language in a public authorities” that are covered in the Bill. I referred number of places. I support the basic thrust of the Bill, earlier to the Food Standards Agency, and others have but there is nothing more profound than to authorise referred to the Environment Agency and the Gambling the agents of the state to break the criminal law. That Commission. This is a matter of concern because, as the can be done only in the most exceptional circumstances, right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) said, and those circumstances are not things that can be including these organisations in the same breath as the trailed in public, so obviously we need a degree of police and military intelligence and other serious operators discretion about how we do it. I will deal swiftly with in this field is seeking to do too much. In fact, it would just a few matters. undermine the substance of the work of the more First, given that principle, I am concerned about how serious bodies. we deal with the pre or post-authorisation arrangements. I am afraid that the answers we have had from the Having put the matter on a statutory footing and having Minister are somewhat lacking in conviction. The idea previously established the independent commissioner that the protections or limitations can be found in the and then the tribunal, I would be worried about the Human Rights Act and that they are necessary, because exclusion of pre-authorisation save in the most exceptional to have them on the face of the Bill would somehow circumstances. I am not saying that every type of criminal give a checklist to the bad guys that they could use to offence should be excluded at this stage, but when we test and to imperil agents in the field, is, if we consider it come to Committee, we should examine whether we in its entirety, somewhat lacking in conviction. The should in any circumstance contemplate setting on the Minister seems to be suggesting that serious organised face of an Act of Parliament provision for someone criminals can get legal advice or will look for themselves committing the offence of murder, for example, or to the face of this Bill, but that they will not look to the something equally extreme, other than when they would face of the Human Rights Act. If these limitations are probably be entitled to run the defence of self-defence there, they are there for all to see, regardless of where anyway. they are. I would also be more persuaded if it had not Given the ability of any High Court jurisdiction to until fairly recently been the policy of the Conservatives deal immediately and swiftly with interlocutory matters, to repeal the Human Rights Act. If we were to see them there is no reason to think that the same arrangements return to that position, I wonder what protections would cannot be made in relation to the commissioner. The be left. quality of the commissioners— Sir Adrian Fulford and The other point about the protection coming from now Sir Brian Leveson—is of such an extent that I the Human Rights Act is the one that was made by the would have thought that their early authorisation would right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden be a great support to our security services in doing what (Mr Davis) in an intervention on the Minister. The they have to do. We must think about where the balance reliance on the Human Rights Act stands in stark lies. contrast to the position taken by the Government in The second point I wish to deal with is the list of their submissions to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, organisations. The obvious ones are there, and of course where they were adamant that, where an agent is authorised they must be supported. Like others, however, I question 687 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 688 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill the need to list bodies such as the Food Standards public official, and that, so often, is actually where Agency and, up to a point, the Financial Conduct things are eroded in our public life. It is about the Authority.Is this really a Bill about counteracting terrorism person who genuinely believes that he or she is doing and life-or-death threats, or is it actually just about the right thing, but who does things in an over-zealous enabling the National Crime Agency—a worthy body way and encroaches, time and again, upon the protections in itself—to deal with economic crime? That may be a that are necessarily there. That is what I want the legitimate concern, but I do not think it should be put in Minister and the Solicitor General to take away. this type of legislation, unless it is spelled out a bit more We all want this Bill to go through swiftly, but it carefully. would do no harm to reflect a little, improve it and, The Minister of State and I have personal and shared above all, have faith in the process that we have set in casework experience relating to constituents of overreach statute with the independent complaints commissioner. and mission creep on the part of Her Majesty’s Customs For heaven’s sake, if people such as Brian Leveson and and Excise, which frankly behaved appallingly.Ultimately, Adrian Fulford are not to be relied upon, why not bring it was overridden by the courts, but I am worried that it them in at the very earliest point in the process, rather might be thought that the imprecise definition of serious than having them retrospectively sweep up and pass crime could be stretched to cover some of the cases we judgment? I trust them and I think the public trust them have dealt with. The Minister looks as though he thinks more than almost anybody, and I suspect that that that is impossible, but serious crime is not defined in would support morally and effectively the agents that statute; it is a matter of fact and degree. It requires we have to employ under these very difficult circumstances. either a definition or, more likely, a more robust pre- application process. 8.23 pm Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I James Brokenshire: I appreciate the contribution that welcome plans to place these activities on a statutory my hon. Friend, the Chair of the Justice Committee, is footing. I doubt that any of us can feel comfortable making and perhaps we can continue this conversation. about criminal actions undertaken at the behest of the I point him to the issues of proportionality and necessity, state, but it is naive in the extreme to pretend that we do the requirement to consider matters that are not criminal not live in a world where undercover operations are to the end itself and the safeguards that the Human necessary. The reality is that we need people to carry Rights Act provides, which I set out earlier. Therefore, out these activities, often in great secrecy and sometimes there is a strong framework, as well as the subsequent outside the law, as it stands. The question is surely oversight, but I will listen carefully to what he says. I am whether such actions are sanctioned, controlled and reflective on some of the timeliness of oversight, as I approved, or involve rogue elements in a very opaque indicated, and I appreciate his points. area. I admire those whose actions keep us safe, and I am only too aware of the risks and temptations that Sir Robert Neill: I understand the spirit in which my might face individuals embedded in alien environments right hon. Friend makes that point. I suspect that many for long periods. Any legislation must ensure maximum of those fears could be set at nought if we can do this supervision by controllers and handlers. sensibly. The point is that without either having an I want to be sure that the Bill ends up legitimising obligation to comply with the ECHR on the face of the conduct which is necessary. I recall the dissatisfaction Bill and certain most grave offences being excluded in with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 the Bill, or, on the other hand, greater clarity on the as it became apparent that many more agencies were timeliness and the way in which that will work, there are using it to snoop in a way that had not really been still issues that we need to deal with. envisaged during its passage and that had little to do with security. I acknowledge that the Bill extends beyond Mr Carmichael: Is not another factor that comes into national security and covers crime, fraud and other play after necessity and proportionality human nature? abuses, but we need legislation that is narrow in scope It is human nature for people who work all the time in and tightly controlled. We need a presumption against these specific areas—whether that is customs and excise, criminal acts unless absolutely necessary and, at all the Gambling Commission or food standards—to persuade times, behaviour that is proportionate. I want to be themselves that the thing that they are doing is the most certain that the doubts raised by Amnesty that the Bill important thing, and they see the whole world differently. could end up providing informers and agents with a The most zealous enforcers of anything that I have ever licence to kill, are wrong. I want to know that, in come across were television licensing enforcement officers. accordance with section 9.3 of the code of practice, all I can say only that I take some small comfort from the material obtained through the authorisation of a CHIS fact that they are not on the face of this Bill. is subject to proper safeguards and any breaches properly reported. We need to be certain, as section 2.12 of the Sir Robert Neill: To my shame, I was once instructed code highlights, that appropriate care will be taken to to prosecute a list of television licence enforcements in ensure that it is clear what is and is not authorised, and the Epping magistrates court, when it still existed—a that all CHIS activities are properly risk assessed. I also most inappropriate waste of court time, I have to say, wonder if 12 months is the appropriate period. thereafter. However, the point is well made. It seems to me that the Bill can be improved to Everybody supports where we want to go, but a bit of address those matters. Some items that appear in the tightening up in Committee would not be awry on all code and other safeguards might be better on the face those matters. We have to reassure the law-abiding of the Bill. Like others, I want to be clear that what we citizen about, not a deliberate mission creep—not anything legitimatise is consistent with this country’s obligations done by mala fides—but the over-zealousness of the under the European convention on human rights and 689 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 690 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Steve McCabe] it has a significant effect. Section 6 of the Human Rights Act makes it clear that public authorities, which the Human Rights Act. At a time when this House is is what we are concerned with here, may not act in a way grappling with some Ministers appearing unduly relaxed incompatible with a convention right, including the about breaking the law, we must be certain that this Bill right to life and the right not to be tortured. For as long does not weaken respect for the law, or risk creating a as the UK remains a signatory to the convention and two-tier system with laws for ordinary citizens from the Human Rights Act remains in force, it must be a which members of Government agencies are exempt. relevant matter in the scenarios that have been raised, We must know this country will abide by the highest so the Bill’s meaning in that respect is clear. ethical standards, no matter how inconvenient it might Frankly, my concern is with criminal conduct beneath sometimes be. We have to know there is no intention of the level of murder and torture but which still may be legitimising routine law breaking. I feel we need further quite serious. Here, we rely on the wording of what will assurances about control and supervision, and more be subsections (4) and (5) of section 29B of RIPA, as about the nature of reporting to the Intelligence and set out in the Bill, to counter the risk that too wide a Security Committee and the Investigatory Powers latitude is given to break the law than is warranted and Commissioner. We also need guarantees about further the consequent risk that an agent takes disproportionate opportunities for Parliament, if the Bill makes it on to criminal action. The point made by my hon. Friend the the statute book, to scrutinise how it works in practice. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) There are those who say we should oppose the Bill on about the tightening of language is important here. Second Reading. For me, that would mean voting against Under the terms of the Bill as they stand, criminal the principle of a Bill that tries to clarify what is already conduct authorisation may not be granted unless the a very murky area. I believe it is in our interests to try to person granting it believes three things set out on page 2 achieve a viable piece of legislation, but it would be a of the Bill. They are, dereliction of duty if we did not seek to improve the Bill “that the authorisation is necessary on grounds falling within and the safeguards around covert operations. I want subsection (5)…that the authorised conduct is proportionate legislation that is effective, ethical and does what it says …and…that arrangements exist that satisfy such requirements as on the tin. The Bill needs improvement and I hope that, may be imposed by order made by the Secretary of State.” if it receives a fair wind tonight. the Government will The first question that has to be asked is what kind of approach the next stage with an open mind, because belief is needed. Is it honest belief, reasonable belief? that is in everyone’s interests. Surely, it must be the latter. It would be helpful if that 8.29 pm could be clarified at an early stage. It matters so much because of the weight put on new subsection (4)(b), Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): It which states is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for “that the authorised conduct is proportionate to what is sought to Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) and to speak be achieved by that conduct”. in this debate, in which there have been two significant points of consensus. The first is that it is right to Proportionality is vital to the rationale and effect of the provide for authority to be given to commit criminal Bill. It is also vital, of course, to answering many of the offences in appropriate circumstances. The most obvious perfectly legitimate points that have been raised about example of that is the infiltration of criminal organisations the inclusion of some other agencies—several of which the membership of which is in itself an offence. The have been mentioned—in the list of those that can second point of consensus is that if the first is so, it is authorise criminal conduct. It must be the case that it is better for it to be on a clear statutory basis. For that not proportionate to commit a relatively serious criminal reason, I welcome the Bill. offence to prevent the commission of a relatively minor one. Proportionality is at the heart of what happens in That is not to say, though, that there are not legitimate relation not just to agencies such as MI5 but all the concerns about the Bill, and many of them have been other agencies on that list. expressed already.There is more to say about the distinction to be made between civil liability and criminal liability— Finally, I want to say a word or two about safeguards. doubtless we will return to that issue as the Bill It has not been raised particularly in the course of the progresses—but the majority of the concerns expressed debate so far, but there are those who say that we should so far have been about scope and safeguards, so I shall not offer authorisation in advance but instead rely on briefly say something about both those things. prosecutorial discretion to deal with those cases where On scope, it seems to me that it is absolutely right that agents commit criminal offences. I yield to no one in my the provisions of the Bill should be tightly circumscribed faith in prosecutorial discretion—I have exercised it so that the criminal law is broken to the minimum myself a few times and I know that it can have a degree necessary to prevent greater crime. It has been significant role to play—but I think it would be wrong said more than once that the Bill leaves open the possibility to put all of the burden there, and to leave those already that crimes such as murder and torture could be committed taking considerable risk exposed to almost equally with apparent authority. I am not sure that that is so. considerable legal uncertainty, when there is another Clause 1(5) sets out what will become section 29B of the way of doing it. It would also be a step back, for those Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. What will individuals who are taking those risks, from where we be subsections (6) and (7) of new section 29B require a are now, where authority and therefore reassurance is person who may authorise criminal conduct to take given in advance, albeit not on the legal basis that we all into account, first, whether the same objective could be seek to achieve. achieved without committing a crime and, secondly, I have rather more sympathy for the points that have other relevant matters, including the Human Rights been made about judicial oversight. If we cannot get to Act. That is a somewhat diffident way to express it, but a place where prior judicial approval is in place—I am 691 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 692 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill perfectly willing to be persuaded by my right hon. would they be compelled to notify their counterparts in Friend the Minister that there are significant practical Irish agencies? Has this been discussed with Dublin? It difficulties with that—it seems to me fundamentally is not a case of whether they would do these things; it is important that the oversight is as proximate as possible a case of whether the Bill gives them space to do so. to the action. If it cannot happen in advance, it must I speak from some experience in Northern Ireland happen as soon as possible afterwards. That is an area when I say that serious crimes up to and including in which we must all focus as the Bill moves into murder, particularly when committed by the state, are Committee. I certainly hope it gets there, because I very possible. That leads first to a generation of victims believe it is a good Bill, but, as others have said, it is and survivors, then to deep alienation from the state capable of improvement. and further on to the perpetuation of conflict. I would caution Members about going down that road. 8.36 pm Many in the House might say in good faith that agents committing a serious crime was rare, and I have Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): Like others, no doubt that most of those involved in this form of while acknowledging that regulation of covert human policing would not and could not conduct that sort of intelligence sources should be on a legislative footing activity.Unfortunately, we know from very recent history and that they have a role in modern policing, we have that it was not just one or two bad apples. I will speak concerns about the Bill. I would like to offer some carefully because files have been referred to the DPP, cautionary tales and some lessons from fairly recent and I understand the caution, but there is a continuing history in Northern Ireland about what can go wrong investigation into the agent known as Stakeknife. That when the state engages in crime, even if Members investigation was discussed at length at the Northern understand, or potentially even endorse, the outcomes Ireland Affairs Committee last month by John Boutcher, that those agents are seeking to achieve. the former chief constable of Bedfordshire police, who In that context, the scale of this Bill is quite something. is leading the investigation. He has highlighted how It expresses no limit on the type of crimes that can be probably dozens of people were murdered by those in authorised if the agent believes the action is proportionate, control of the IRA, but with the knowledge and sanction the authorising officer need only take into account of those in command and control of British security whether the objective sought could be achieved through agencies. means other than crimes, and Members have already RUC special branch agent Mark Haddock is believed addressed the almost bizarrely wide range of agencies to have been involved in over 20 murders. As other that are in scope. I am sure that people have spoken Members have mentioned, Ken Barrett, a British agent, about the early period of operation of RIPA and the was involved in the murder of lawyer Pat Finucane, scenarios in which those provisions were used incorrectly. which former Prime Minister David Cameron conceded The arrangements for operational oversight and post- involved shocking levels of collusion. Multiple agents operational accountability are weaker than those for killed with impunity for Britain, and they were tangled phone tapping or law enforcement searches, despite up with both loyalist and republican paramilitaries. having a potentially much bigger impact. As former Current proposals from the Government relating to Director of Public Prosecutions Lord Ken Macdonald Northern Ireland already make the families feel like the has said, the Bill will make it easier for a policeman to lives of their loved ones did not matter and that the rule commit a serious crime than to search a shed. of law does not seem to be relevant in the case of their The Bill would block redress through the courts for murders, but the Bill really risks bringing back the those who might experience adverse effects. It is probably ghosts of our policing past. disingenuous for the Bill to rely on the Human Rights I want to be very clear: the SDLP acknowledges the Act as a safeguard, because this Government have realities of life, policing, crime and terrorism. The hon. made it clear that they do not believe that that Act Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) gave a very applies to the actions and potential abuses of their fair assessment of the continuing a security threat in agents, up to and including torture. The Overseas Northern Ireland, which we are far from blind to. Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill, which However, the necessary mechanisms have to be regulated we considered just two weeks ago in this House, proposes under statute to avoid doubt and to uphold the rule of to severely restrict the possibility of prosecuting those law, which only works if provisions are underpinned by serious criminal wrongdoings, which of course have appropriate human rights frameworks and oversight. been illegal under international law since 1948. This Bill We are not in the wild west, where the means justify will not and cannot be read in isolation from those the ends. other pieces of legislation. The fact that the Human I say again that, from the SDLP’s perspective, these Rights Act has been a whipping boy for many,particularly are not words that we casually say. We are not a party on the Government Benches, means that people will not that points out all the problems and will not engage in have faith that it will be allowed to stand in the way the the solutions. When the SDLP joined the Policing Board provisions of this Bill. in 2001, our members did so under very serious threats The existing extraterritorial provisions of RIPAsuggest and intimidation by the IRA, but we did that heavy that, in theory, this Bill could apply outside the UK lifting on the Policing Board precisely because we needed and, indeed, in the Republic of Ireland—that MI5 a new beginning for policing in Northern Ireland. We could, from its Loughshore base in Belfast, authorise a were not just going to leave the details of policing for serious criminal act just over the border in Donegal or others to deal with. Dublin. That prompts a number of questions that I That new beginning to policing in Northern Ireland hope the Minister will be able to address. If the UK is among the most successful elements of the post-Good authorities were sanctioning or authorising a crime, Friday agreement era. Policing was so divisive for many 693 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 694 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Claire Hanna] concerns that powers are being used in discriminatory ways, particularly against black, Asian and minority generations, but the PSNI and its oversight mechanisms ethnic people. are a bastion of policing in the modern era. In just five The trajectory is chillingly clear. As Unite the union years, the Policing Board and its partners in the police, says, there is much to be concerned about in this Bill in the Northern Ireland Office, the Department of Foreign respect of the impact on freedom and justice in the UK. Affairs and the community, and particularly the brave The Joint Committee on Human Rights has expressed young women and men who stepped up and joined the concern about the human rights implications of the police, together implemented the mechanisms and the Bill. Is it not the case that the Human Rights Act oversight recommendations—85% of them—in the Patten cannot be seen as a safeguard against the authorisation report. That included the overhaul and reform of of agent criminality because the Government have intelligence policing, because there were not at that previously taken the position that the HRA does not point any rules governing what an agent could or could apply to crimes committed by their covert agents? Is it not do. not the case that because an individual cannot currently That was the old regime, and it did not serve the rule be prosecuted under the HRA or the European convention of law or the purpose of progressing Northern Ireland. on human rights, an agency or Government can only be The Bill runs the risk of recreating the new in the image sued after the event for damages, meaning that there of the old. That would betray the work that so many would not be any protection for victims nor any disincentive people did, fearlessly and relentlessly, to improve the for agents under this Bill? Is it not the case that covert outcomes from policing. The Bill compounds the problem, agents would not only be committing crimes, but be with even less oversight than the policing model that we inciting crimes to build their cover and undermine the tried so hard to change. moral authority of protest movements? I must also say that this legislation will be viewed in Mr Kevan Jones: I am sorry, but the hon. Lady the context of other actions by the Government. The obviously does not know the way in which covert agents statement on 18 March relating to legacy turned on are working. They are under strict protocols now; there their head commitments that we had previously received is no legislation covering this issue. Although I accept on truth, justice and accountability, and it breaches a the need for some more protections in the Bill, it gives treaty. The United Kingdom Internal Market Bill turns authorisation in legal statute, which is not there at the commitments to Northern Ireland and Ireland on the moment. their head, and it breaches a treaty.The Overseas Operations (Service Personal and Veterans) Bill turns requirements Apsana Begum: I take the point, but I believe that for the investigation of crimes and breaches on their under the HRA a prosecution cannot currently be head. That is three proposals and three blows to confidence. brought, so that is not a safeguard that is actually in People in my constituency are watching agog at the statute. [Interruption.] I will make some progress. actions of this Government and the exercise of arbitrary, Is it not the case that covert agents would not just be unilateral, reckless state power, and I caution Members committing crimes, but be inciting crimes to build their that constituents in other areas will begin to do that as cover and undermine the moral authority of protest well. Confidence is being damaged left, right and centre, movements? It is, I suppose, why organisations such as and a Bill such as this, if unamended, will only compound Privacy International, Reprieve and others argue that that error. the Government cannot convincingly claim that the HRA will provide a sufficient safeguard. Perhaps the 8.45 pm Minister will say more about that today. Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Madam Let me come to what is for many the crux of the Bill. Deputy Speaker, thank you for calling me to speak in There is a grave and real danger that it could end up this important debate. Like many others, I am astounded providing informers and agents with a licence to kill. at the gravity and significance of this Bill. The Government Put simply, it is deeply alarming that the proposed law have said that the Bill seeks to place existing practice on does not explicitly prohibit MI5 and other agencies a clear and consistent statutory footing and reflect from authorising crimes such as a torture and killing. existing practice, but of course many have criticisms of This is not an abstract or philosophical question. We existing practice, and the case law shows that the legalities have seen the consequences of undercover agents in in this area have not yet been fully considered. This Bill paramilitary organisations operating with what some goes way, way beyond the status quo, and it comes just believe to be apparent impunity while committing grave over a week after the Overseas Operations (Service human rights abuses, including murder. Independent Personnel and Veterans) Bill, which could result in inquiries have found that, at times, when intelligence torture and other serious crimes being protected from units of the security forces were running informants prosecution. they were acting as though the law did not apply to Barely a week passes without this Government them. This legislation also cuts across a case that is announcing yet another departure from recognised rules going through the courts—the third direction case—and of domestic and international law.Just before the summer, does not give Parliament the chance to hear the higher the Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill passed through Court’s views about the state of the law. Parliament, delaying the long-awaited review of Prevent, We have heard much rhetoric today about safety and which fosters discrimination against Muslims, and security. Are there safeguards for potential victims of introducing significant curtailments of civil liberties, crime, for our trade unions and for people expressing which will disadvantage ethnic minorities. Last week, their hard-won right to protest? Are there protections we debated the Coronavirus Act 2020, about which for ethnic minorities—Muslims, in particular—who we human rights and anti-racist campaigners have raised know are disproportionately at risk of state violence? 695 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 696 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill Rehman Chishti: Will the hon. Lady give way? Sir John Hayes: That is certainly true, as my hon. Friend will know that I was once responsible for overseeing Apsana Begum: I will make progress. This legislation the Prevent programme and indeed introduced the Prevent seeks to allow the state legally to act with impunity in its duty. Extremism of all kinds that leads to violence and surveillance missions. It hard not to see the Bill as threatens life and limb needs to be countered. The another iteration of the expansion of state surveillance mechanisms we use to do so are common to all those and the criminalisation of marginalised communities. who seek, in my earlier words, to maim and murder us. We should not let our fundamental values of human rights, justice and equality be undermined. When I guided the Investigatory Powers Bill through this House as the Security Minister, I learned that On the international stage, we must stand up for the infiltration is a vital tool for our security and intelligence values we share: of justice, human rights and democracy, agencies to penetrate terrorist groups. Those brave enough and of working with others to keep people safe by to do so must be credible to those they need to trust ending conflict and tackling the climate emergency. It is them, so it is axiomatic that they must look and sound because I believe in those fundamental values and because like those they live among and do as they do. Put I am committed to keeping all our communities safe simply, if they are to be believed to be a gang member, that I will stand up against the Government’s increasingly they need to act like a gang member. If they fail to draconian approach, which seeks to strip away the very convince those they infiltrate, it is no exaggeration to freedoms that people in my constituency and all over say they may be killed—indeed, that is the essence of the UK hold dear. undercover agents’ work. 8.51 pm The Bill, as has been emphasised repeatedly, provides a clear legal basis for that long-standing, invaluable Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) covert tactic, which enables the detection and discovery (Con): Following the hon. Member for Poplar and of crucial, critical intelligence that other investigative Limehouse (Apsana Begum) reminds me of how much tools might never detect. We have heard, as I have said we miss her predecessor, who was such a well-respected repeatedly, that 27 terrorist attacks have been averted, in Member of the House. part because of interception and infiltration. Preventing Hegel concluded: those atrocities has saved real lives of individuals loved “What is reasonable is real; that which is real is reasonable.” and known, who live today thanks to the tireless work The reality of the means by which we counter the of our police and intelligence services. wicked plots and plans of those intent on maiming and Of course there must be accountability and scrutiny, murdering Britons—of all kinds and types, by the way—are as I recognised during the passage of the Investigatory made reasonable by the character of those deadly schemes. Powers Bill, in which we introduced the double lock to In essence, we must match the most ruthless adversaries which my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton in our diligence, determination and decisiveness. To do and Ripon (Julian Smith) has drawn the House’sattention. so is entirely reasonable. Wealso established the Investigatory Powers Commissioner As the Minister said, since 2017 numerous terrorist and, indeed, the Investigatory Powers Tribunal. It is attacks have been anticipated and thwarted through the critical that we look at things in a way that reassures skilful efforts of the security and intelligence agencies members of the public that powers are used only where and the police, but some have not. The death at terrorist necessary and proportionate, as the Minister emphasised. hands of 22 innocent civilians in Manchester, including Our standards must be maintained as we struggle with many children, haunts us all. At the heart of our threats from those who have no meaningful ethical democracy here in Westminster, where four individuals standards. were executed on the bridge and PC Keith Palmer lost As well as being proportionate and necessary, the his own life heroically resisting the murderer sent to hell security agencies’ test for all their work, as the right by the bullets of other heroes, we saw again what hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) pointed Islamist terror can mean for the innocent. Those and all out, is that the particularity of any criminal endeavour other tragedies of this type haunt us, but they also entered into must—as the Bill makes clear—be specific, harden our resolve. As we are strengthened by grief, limited and detailed in permission granted. Where the those we mission to keep us safe from such ills each and objective can be secured without criminal activity, it will every day need to be sure that we stand for them and by be; criminal activity will apply only where there is no them, and that is just what the Bill does. other credible alternative. It is essential that it be limited Rehman Chishti: Like my right hon. Friend, I fully to only the activity specifically authorised in the criminal support the Bill going through. He mentioned the Daesh- conduct authorisation granted exclusively by highly inspired extremism. Does he agree with me that the first trained and experienced officers. Moreover, there will duty of the state is to protect its citizens, and the be effective scrutiny, with authorisations overseen by legislation that has been put through this Parliament on the independent Investigatory Powers Commissioner, counter-terrorism has been designed with that in mind, the ISC kept informed of the use of CCAs, and the irrespective of creed, colour or background? What I tribunal able to investigate any complaints against public have seen with the Prevent and Channel programmes, authorities’ use of the power. having sat on the Home Affairs Committee, is that there Reasonableness is defined by the bitter reality of our are now far more individuals from right-wing-inspired continuing struggle against the individuals and groups extremism than there are from Daesh-inspired extremism. whose defining purpose is to do us harm. It is my The threat to our country is therefore from both kinds estimation that as terrorists become more adaptable of extremism, and the legislation we put through this and flexible and as terrorism itself metamorphoses, we Parliament is designed with the duty to protect our will need to look again at the power, resources and legal citizens of all creeds, colours and background. means by which those whom we wish to keep us safe do 697 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 698 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Sir John Hayes] unions have legitimate concerns, given that covert surveillance has been undertaken in the past against their work. Historically, major pieces of legislation have entirely legitimate trade union activity in conjunction gone through this House perhaps every decade or a with criminal blacklisting. little more, but I suspect that we will legislate more While quick to quote the book of human rights, the often as terrorism changes, particularly as a result of Government have failed to quote chapter and verse of the changing nature of communications and other what is permissible and what is beyond the pale. Would technology. the use of sensory overload or stress positions by agents We must resource and equip the brave men and constitute torture and be a violation of human rights? women who put themselves at great risk in our interest Would they then be criminally culpable? What guarantee to keep us safe and to safeguard our way of life. To can the Minister give that a future UK Government, or legislate to give them the much-needed powers provided even this one, might not seek to legislate for derogations by the Bill is both timely and, most of all, it is reasonable. from the European convention on human rights? Given the horizon-spanning nature of the criminal conduct covered by the Bill, where is the threshold for authorising 8.57 pm acts, such as phone tapping, that rightly concern the Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): It is public? What does “proportionate” actually mean? If an honour to follow the right hon. Member for South we do not define it, who does? By what algorithm do we Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). assess the range of proportionality? Where is the shift I approach the Bill, as I am sure we all do, knowing and the mission creep there? that what is at stake is trust in our legal system and The Government have also empowered a range of public consent for those agencies that we empower to organisations with this new authorisation of criminality, protect us all. Given the provisions enabling criminality, from the Environment Agency to England’s Department sufficient scrutiny is therefore vital. It is right that the of Health and Social Care, but how do the Government Government have sought to remedy the previous murky intend to prevent creep by Government Departments arrangements and bring clarity through legislation, but and the erosion of law? What safeguards will the the Bill needs to be beyond reproach when it is enacted. Government put in place within those Departments? As hon. Members have already identified, the Bill Does the Investigatory Powers Commissioner have sufficient with its ambiguity and its powers gives a legal power to measures and capacity to deal in a timely fashion with individuals to commit crimes. That is rightly alarming the incremental increase in his workload? to the public. The phrase “authorised conduct is rendered ‘lawful for all purposes’” LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): Does the right hon. Member agree that it is all well and on page 3 of the explanatory notes must be questioned good having oversight after the effect, but there is a real and clarified. It is not sufficient to state that all public danger that the authority providing authorisation before bodies are bound by the Human Rights Act to comply the effect is the same authority that is doing the with the European convention on human rights; it must investigation? We all have systems of tunnel vision be set out in the Bill, for the sake of public confidence, when we are in the middle of something and are unable that the very worst acts of violence, including sexual to see the wider aspect, and independence at the pre- violence, torture and murder are not permissible. The authorisation stage is really important. Bill is looked at by all people, not just those to whom it applies. Confidence in our Government and in our Liz Saville Roberts: Professional intent, although very institutions is significant. laudable in certain circumstances, in this instance could well lead to unpredicted circumstances, and possibly Mr Kevan Jones: I agree that explaining the Bill to most undesirable ones. the public is very difficult. We therefore need to have the safeguards that the right hon. Lady talks about, but The Bill at present is ill defined and explained, with a the example that she just gave would not get through focus trained on selected specific issues, and it risks the authorisation stage, which is overseen by the undermining the trust upon which the public agencies commissioner at the moment. Does she think that there tasked with our defence depends. Many, including the is another way of doing it, without having a long list of Front Benchers of Her Majesty’s Opposition, have said crimes and of what can and cannot be done? that that will be discussed on Report and in Committee. It is very important, and will evidently be significant Liz Saville Roberts: That is a very fair point, which when we are able to table amendments and discuss the we have discussed to a considerable degree. None the Bill in detail. However,consideration is down for Thursday less, there is a public revulsion at the prospect of sexual week. There will be a Thursday afternoon for Committee violence, murder and crimes of that nature, which warrant and all remaining stages. That is insufficient for the level being mentioned in the Bill for that very reason. of scrutiny that a Bill of this seriousness warrants. I beg the Government to consider whether, in all honesty, Equally profound and disturbing at first appearance that is the impression that they wish to leave on the is the power to grant authorisations, which will be given international stage, on which we hope to lead in the to organisations to decide for themselves internally, rules-based dimension in the future. without judicial oversight and with limited redress for victims. It is quite extraordinary that there is no provision 9.4 pm for how innocent victims of authorised criminal conduct might be compensated, which is surely to be expected in Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): It is a great the Bill. I also believe—this point has already been well pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Dwyfor expressed, but I want to add my voice to it—that trade Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts). She is absolutely 699 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 700 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill right that public confidence is a critical issue with East (Dr Lewis), with the Investigatory Powers Tribunal regard to a Bill of this nature. I am sure that those on to investigate and determine complaints and grievances the Government Front Bench will have been listening independent of Government and any Government very carefully to her remarks, and indeed those of organisations. everybody today. I sense that one or two Members’ However, if these procedures are already in place, contributions, perhaps including that of the hon. Member then I am concerned to hear from the Minister how we for Poplar and Limehouse (Apsana Begum), were not are going to make sure that they work better in future, thought to have been much in alignment with everybody because a number of issues raised in the debate require else’s. Well, I say all power to her for voicing her views, some further thought and response from the Government. because it is important that the Government hear Many are rightly concerned that in the past women everybody’s views, whether or not they are consistent have been sexually abused and even raped as part of with what might be felt elsewhere. covert operations. The Minister has been clear that Having listened very carefully to the debate, I think these actions would never be sanctioned, either in the that, by and large, there is cross-party support for the past or now, but regardless of the rules, reports of proposed legislation, notwithstanding the specific issues widespread involvement by officers in these sorts of that have been raised by hon. and right hon. Members very serious sexual assaults are concerning and have throughout, particularly on issues of safeguards and emerged. What will be done differently under this Bill to oversight. That support stems from a clear understanding stop such blatant abuses happening in future? of the role of covert human intelligence sources in helping to keep safe us every day of the week—safe Lloyd Russell-Moyle: I wonder whether the right hon. from those who scheme every day to take the lives of Lady agrees that the Bill is partly about enabling self- innocent British citizens in terrorist attacks like the one restraint, and therefore putting certain things that cannot that we saw here in Parliament not so long ago. be done into the Bill provides an understanding for This very narrowly focused Bill seeks to put on a officers so that it is clear, whereas a more general statutory footing activities that frankly most of us human rights approach could create the danger of it would like never to know about—courageous work being less clear, just as in Canada or America. done by people who may never have the value of their work recognised publicly because of the security issues Mrs Miller: The hon. Gentleman could argue that involved. The Bill gives those agents a more legally point from completely the opposite side, because by in certain environment within which to operate and give some way bringing into question whether this piece more protection, through the safeguards, to those in of legislation will be treated like all other pieces of broader society. In the past, activities that have involved legislation—in other words, that a Minister will authorise breaches of the law, including belonging to a proscribed it only if it is compliant, under the Human Rights Act, organisation, were undertaken on the basis of what with sections of the European convention on human appears to have been an implied power. The right hon. rights—I think he actually brings the whole thing into Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd talked about murky question; probably unintentionally, of course. proceedings. I do not know whether that is the correct Going back to the point that I was making, what will term, but it seemed to fit. The Bill removes any ambiguity be done differently? First, the Bill briefing note provides and, in doing so, ensures that already strong procedures some detail on what might be done differently, but there and oversight are more transparent and perhaps, hopefully, is room for perhaps a little more, perhaps in Committee more understandable to everybody concerned. or beyond. The Bill provides detail on training for We have heard some very learned analysis of the way authorising officers about the way this new legislation that the Bill works from some very learned Members, would work, but absolutely no mention is made of particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley training for the agents themselves. Given the problems and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) and my right hon. of the past, can the Minister outline more fully what and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and training agents receive on awareness, knowledge and Southam (Jeremy Wright). I do not intend to compete expertise in the application of the Human Rights Act? I with their many years of expertise, but I do want to think many Members could do with some training on look at some of the issues that are presented by the that at certain stages, because it is incredibly complex, safeguards in the Bill. and compliance with the European convention on human It was important that my right hon. Friend the Minister rights adds even more complexity. put on the record some of the actions that have been Secondly, in 2016 the College of Policing published undertaken by covert human intelligence sources in the “Undercover policing: Authorised Professional Practice”, past—actions that could never be sanctioned or authorised which is national guidance for officers. It would be either in the past or, indeed, under this new legislation. helpful if the Minister updated the House on the status Understandably, the debate has focused on safeguards of that guidance, and whether any further operational to ensure that further such unauthorised behaviour is guidance is envisaged for agents who will be under this eliminated. The Bill and the code of practice set out new legislation. Covert human intelligence has an impact very clear safeguards that, as other hon. Members have on many vulnerable people in society, and particularly pointed out, are for the most part already in place and women who may have had intimate sexual relations operational. However, the Bill puts in place a protocol with undercover officers. Is the Minister reviewing the and safeguards to put them on a statutory basis, be that effectiveness of the way that policy impact is assessed to authorisation from a trained and experienced officer, ensure that these sorts of blatant breaches are caught oversight by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner or more quickly and, drawing on what my right hon. and accountability to the Intelligence and Security Committee learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam under my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest said, caught right away, rather than at a point in the 701 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 702 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Mrs Miller] It does not prohibit sexual violence. Instead, all it requires is that authorising officers themselves believe future? The 70-page code of practice that accompanies that the conduct is appropriate, necessary by broadly the Bill is welcome, but perhaps a little unwieldy. How defined criteria and meets requirements that may be will the intent behind this Bill be turned into practice imposed by an order made by the Secretary of State. for agents on the ground? Even the FBI expressly bans operatives from certain Finally, if errors are made or agents do not follow the criminal conduct, but this Bill does not ban any type of rules, there needs to be a clear and transparent pathway criminal conduct for British state agents. of redress for victims. What is that pathway for victims: The grounds upon which the authorisations can be what path would they follow under this legislation, and granted are ill-defined and wide-ranging. They include how is it different from what went before? All legislation not only national security but “preventing disorder” we pass in this place is authorised by Ministers on the and to promote proviso that it accords with the provisions in the Human “the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom.” Rights Act and the European convention on human rights—this goes to the point made by the hon. Member That has rightly raised alarm bells for trade unions such for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle)—but as my union, Unite, and justice campaigns such as the mention has been made of the defence used by the Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign, who fear that Government previously in apparently carving out the these powers could be used to interfere with the legitimate actions of agents as being separate from the rules activities of trade unions. applying to public authorities.Wehave heard an explanation The Bill grants these powers to a dizzying array of of that already in the debate today, but I think more agencies—not just intelligence agencies and the police, clarity on that would be helpful when we think about but the Competition and Markets Authority,the Gambling building confidence both within the Chamber and beyond. Commission and the Environment Agency, just to name In conclusion, I fully support the Bill before us today, a few. The oversight for authorisation of potentially and there is a great deal of merit in what the Government serious crimes is scandalously weak. There are no provisions are attempting to do. I again pay tribute to all those in in the Bill for warrants or independent judicial approval. our security services who work to help keep us safe. Instead, authorisation will be granted internally, which This legislation will put on a firmer footing the protocols means that incredibly serious crimes could be authorised within which they work and the safeguards that are with less oversight than is currently required for phone there to ensure those provisions work as we intend them tapping or police searches. As the human rights group to do, which is to bring criminals to justice. Governance, Reprieve has noted, survivors of the spy cops scandal security and oversight will not diminish this Bill; they have sought justice through the courts for abuses they will strengthen it to give it the full confidence of this suffered, but this Bill will block future claims being House and the people we represent. brought forward, since it outlaws civil action against authorised activities. That is utterly unconscionable. 9.13 pm In the Bill’s defence, the Government claim that Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): As I am public authorities are bound by the Human Rights Act, making the final Back-Bench speech, I will not be and for that reason, the prohibition of crimes such as taking any interventions—apologies. torture is guarded. In reality, that offers no protection On 12 February 1989, Pat Finucane, an Irish lawyer against agent criminality, because in the Government’s in Belfast, sat at his kitchen table to have dinner with his view, the Human Rights Act does not apply to crimes wife and three children. As they ate, two gunmen burst committed by covert agents. The Government told the through the door,entered the room and shot Mr Finucane Investigatory Powers Tribunal in November 2019 that, 14 times. He was killed by a loyalist paramilitary group in tasking agents, the state that, as the Prime Minister at the time, David Cameron, “is not the instigator of that activity and cannot be treated as admitted in 2012, was acting in complicity with British responsible for it”. security services. Far from stopping Mr Finnigan’smurder, According to the Government’s own standards, the Bill the Prime Minister described the will therefore not place any limits on the crimes that “shocking levels of state collusion”—[Official Report, 12 December agents could be authorised to commit—not on torture, 2012; Vol. 555, c. 296] not on murder and not on sexual violence. in Mr Finucane’s murder. His family are still owed a public inquiry into the murder. Mrs Miller: Will the hon. Lady give way? Deeply troubling acts of state agents such as those in the Finucane case are not isolated. In 2010, it came to light that for 40 years, Britain’s police had run covert Zarah Sultana: I must make progress. operations spying on thousands of civilians. More than This Bill marks the latest step in a frightening descent 1,000 political groups were spied on. Overwhelmingly, it into authoritarianism by this Government. In the past was left-wing, anti-racist and climate justice groups that two weeks, they have proposed the effective were spied on, with just three far-right groups included decriminalisation of torture by British soldiers overseas, on the list. The spy cops revelations have shown that the shipping of asylum seekers more than 4,000 miles police operatives deceived women into sexual relationships away to be imprisoned on Ascension Island, the ban on and even spied on grieving families seeking justice, anti-capitalist teaching materials in schools and now including the parents of Stephen Lawrence. this—licensing undercover agents to commit torture, This Bill must be opposed. It places no limits on the sexual violence and murder. This descent into crimes that state agents can be authorised to commit. It authoritarianism should be a concern to us all. It must does not prohibit torture. It does not prohibit murder. be resisted. 703 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 704 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill 9.19 pm human rights, including the right to life, the prohibition of torture or subjecting someone to inhuman or degrading Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): It is a pleasure treatment. The Human Rights Act is specifically mentioned to close the debate on behalf of the Opposition. The in the Bill, providing important and necessary protection. serious and sombre tone of the debate, which is appropriate However, it is right that during the Bill’s progress we given the measures we are discussing, was set by the will be pressing the Government on safeguards as to Security Minister and the shadow Home Secretary. The what acts can be carried out. I therefore take this debate has been well informed and enhanced by the opportunity to let the Government know, as the hon. contribution of former Cabinet Ministers, particularly Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) and the right Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, who have a hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) working knowledge of these matters, and also the former have, about those areas where we believe the Bill requires Attorney General and the Chairs of the Intelligence scrutiny and can be strengthened on its journey. and Security Committee and Justice Committee. We need to explore in greater detail how we might get As the Leader of the Opposition has made clear, closer to the specifics of what offences can be allowed, security is a top priority for the Labour party under his as has been done in, for example, Canada and indeed leadership. As I have said before from this Dispatch the United States. There is nothing in the Bill to limit or Box, we will be forceful and robust in supporting the specify the kinds of offences covered, only that they are fight against terrorism and crime in all its forms. We to be necessary and proportionate. Despite the fact that consider it our first responsibility to keep this country, the Human Rights Act is applicable in all circumstances, its citizens and our communities safe. We will meet our we will be pressing the Minister for an understanding as duty to support those who put their own safety and to why offences such as murder, torture and sexual lives at risk to protect us. Weacknowledge and understand violence are not explicitly ruled out in this legislation. the purpose of this Bill, which seeks to put on a statutory footing the activity of those working to disrupt some of Moreover, the Bill certifies that an authorisation may the most vile crimes imaginable, including terrorism, be given only if it is deemed necessary the activities of violent drug gangs, serious and organised “in the interests of national security…for the purpose of preventing crime, and child sexual exploitation. or detecting crime or of preventing disorder; or…in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom.” We know that the threat from criminal and terrorist activity is very real and that the ability to gather intelligence These are broad statements that could have wide-ranging is a vital tool in disrupting this activity, preventing interpretations, particularly the last of the three, by a further crime and bringing those responsible for it to large list of agencies. We want to explore some of that justice. Since March 2017, the security services and and will press for assurances. counter-terror police have thwarted 27 terror attacks. In We also want to look at levels of accountability and 2018, covert human intelligence sources helped to disrupt sign-off for authorisation. As the Bill stands, the use of over 30 threats to life, leading to the arrest of numerous such powers will be overseen by the independent serious organised criminals and the seizure of more Investigatory Powers Commissioner, who can report on than 3,000 kilograms of class A drugs, and taking more an annual basis. We believe the Bill needs to go further than 50 firearms off the street. and that each and every authorisation should be notified During the course of those operations, it is inevitable to the commissioner in real time, so that scrutiny can be that agents will at times transgress existing laws in a robust and ongoing. I also welcome indications from limited way. This activity has been happening for a long the members of the Intelligence and Security Committee time. It is not always comfortable for us in this House to that they too will seek to bring forward safeguards in think about what we need people to do to protect us and that respect through amendments. prevent harm coming to us, but real life is not a film. There is no Superman, it is not a fairy tale and there is Sir John Hayes: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s not always a happy ending. That is why it is a step comments and, indeed, the tone of his contribution, but forward that this activity will now be properly covered he must surely acknowledge that being very specific by statute and open to greater transparency,accountability, about what covert agents can and cannot do would regulation and safeguarding in a way that it has not expose them to great risk, for those they infiltrate would been before. know what their parameters of activity are likely to be. We are told that under this legislation covert human intelligence sources will not be given carte blanche—the Conor McGinn: The right hon Gentleman makes a Minister made that very clear. It is therefore absolutely very fair point. I completely appreciate that and have vital that during the passage of the Bill we get those taken into account the comments that have been made safeguards and the processes and structures for by Ministers and those with experience of this, but I just accountability and proportionality absolutely right, both seek simply to see whether there is a way that we can for the maintenance of our country’s hard-won civil add more reassurance for people around some of the liberties and human rights and for the protection of specificity of these matters without exposing people to those who undertake such activity, as my hon. Friends the dangers that have been rightly outlined. the Members for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) and for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) Lloyd Russell-Moyle: Will my hon. Friend give way? outlined so eloquently. The Bill is certified as compliant with the Human Conor McGinn: My hon. Friend is doing very well. Rights Act, as the Minister set out. All public authorities He has been in the Chamber for only 20 minutes and are bound by it to act in a way that is compatible with this is his third intervention, but I will, of course, give the rights protected by the European convention on way to him. 705 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 706 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill Lloyd Russell-Moyle: I did apply to speak, but I was I want to turn briefly to the issue of legacy in Northern refused by the Speaker’s Office, so I have been listening Ireland. I welcome the Minister’s assurance that this to the debate in my office. Bill in no way impinges on or affects that process. I urge Would it not be better if we took a Canadian or even the Treasury Bench to take into account the comments an American model, where there are some things that that were made both by the hon. Member for Belfast are excluded from the scope of actions? This idea of East (Gavin Robinson) and the hon. Member for Belfast testing does not seem to cause problems for the Canadians South (Claire Hanna). Let me say this: I know Pat or the Americans. Finucane’s wife, Geraldine, and I know her sons John and Michael and her family. For 10 years, before I came into the House and since I have been in the House, I Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): have steadfastly admired and supported them in their Order. The hon. Gentleman said that he had been quest for justice, and that is not something that I will refused permission to speak by the Speaker’s Office, but resile from at this Dispatch Box now. Let me also say if he had submitted his name in time, he would have that I do not need to be convinced about the consequences been on the list, so I do not quite understand. Perhaps of the state exceeding its power in this arena. I do not he would like to come and see me and explain exactly need to read a briefing about it. I do not need to hear it what happened. in a meeting because I and the community in which I grew up lived with the consequences of it, which is why Conor McGinn: Sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, I did we need to get this right. not mean to start a discussion with the Speaker’s Office. My hon. Friend makes an important point, which is In summary, we on the Opposition side of the House why I specifically referenced Canada and the United understand the importance of this Bill. I have set out States in terms of the model that we would probe. the areas of concern that we have, and where we would like to see the Bill strengthened, we will work with the I wish to make some progress now and draw to a Government constructively to try to do so robustly and conclusion. We also have concerns over the potential effectively. This legislation puts existing practice on a use of these powers in relation to retrospective action. It clear and consistent statutory footing. It acknowledges says that approval will be sought as soon as it is practically the need for the role of covert human intelligence possible. Our view is that there should be a time limit on sources and, above all else, it must keep the public safe. that, and we would look to a period of around a month. I believe that security and human rights are not I am happy to discuss this with the Minister as there incompatible, but co-dependent, and that will govern does need to be some sort of a hard deadline on the approach that I take as this Bill proceeds through retrospective authority. There is nothing in the Bill to the House. prevent retrospective action, which could see it being abused. Where there are allegations of historical injustices 9.30 pm involving law enforcement and the security services, justice must take its course and the Bill cannot interfere The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): Let me start by with that. thanking colleagues across the House for the constructive way in which Members have approached today’s debate. We will also be carefully scrutinising the number and I think we all agree that national security and preventing nature of the public agencies approved for this activity, serious crime is an area in which we want to ensure that which was a point very well made by my right hon. operational agencies are best equipped to protect us Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). and keep us safe, and this Bill does just that. It is in that These are serious powers—granting the ability for an spirit that we have engaged many Members in advance individual to break the law—so there must be a clear of this debate, and I can assure Members that we will and substantial case for the many agencies listed in the look to continue to work together as the Bill passes Bill. We also want assurances that the powers are not to through Parliament. be used to undermine the legitimate activities of trade unions, civil society groups or campaigns. Opposition If I may, I will respond briefly to some of the points Members are very clear that there can be no repeat of made during the debate. My right hon. Friend the the historical attitudes and, frankly, the moral and legal Security Minister has already responded to a number of corruptions that led to workers being blacklisted, interventions, but turning first to safeguards and oversight, to political interference or, indeed, to inappropriate I agree with those colleagues who have emphasised the relationships as the Spycops inquiry will examine. Similarly, importance of ensuring that there is robust oversight of it must also be the case that victims who have been the use of criminal conduct authorisations, or CCAs. wronged are not inadvertently prevented from seeking That is why we have a world-leading investigatory powers adequate forms of redress or fair compensation. On the regime, and it is why there is significant, independent issue of trade unions specifically, the Investigatory Powers oversight of the use of those powers; few other countries Act 2016, which is the only legal basis for the use of in the world, if any, have such a regime. With regards to powers to obtain communications, specifies that the safeguards within the public authority, all authorising monitoring of trade unions is not grounds for such officers are highly trained. My right hon. Friend the activity, so will the Solicitor-General assure the House—if Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) spoke about training he cannot do it now, perhaps he might write to me if he a few moments ago, and I can say that these officers are would be so good—that nothing in this Bill changes experienced and have clear and detailed guidance that that? Furthermore, the process of blacklisting trade they must follow in deciding whether to grant an unionists has been unlawful since 2010, with the passing authorisation for criminal conduct. of the Employment Relations Act 1999 (Blacklists) In response to the point raised by my right hon. and Regulations 2010, and, again, will he confirm that nothing learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam in this Bill would affect that? (Jeremy Wright), let me confirm that the code of practice 707 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 708 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill sets out that there does need to be a reasonable belief If there are any specific concerns, I am of course happy that an authorisation is necessary and proportionate. to discuss them further, but I can confirm that that is All authorising officers must be appropriately trained, the case. and the independent Investigatory Powers Commissioner Regarding limits, I understand the concerns expressed can identify if any public body is failing to train their by colleagues around the House, but let me be clear: officers or assess them to a sufficiently high standard. covert human intelligence sources will never be provided To respond specifically to the point raised by the hon. with unlimited authority to commit all or any crime. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), I can confirm They will never be provided with an authorisation that that an authorisation must be granted before activity is contrary to our obligations under the Human Rights commences. The Bill does not seek to enable the Act. The Bill makes that specifically clear. This is not a retrospective granting of a criminal conduct authorisation; “licence to kill” Bill. An authorisation is tightly bound: this is not a retrospective Bill. it must be necessary, and it must be proportionate to the I turn now to independent oversight. The Investigatory activity it seeks to prevent. Powers Commissioner is entirely independent of Her As my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest Majesty’s Government and has wide-ranging powers to East (Dr Lewis) and others set out, creating a specific support his crucial oversight functions, which include list of prohibited activity, were we to do that, would the ability to inspect all the public authorities able to place into the hands of criminals, terrorists and hostile grant a criminal conduct authorisation at a frequency states the means to create a checklist against which of his choosing. Public authorities are required to provide suspected covert human intelligence sources could be unfettered access to all of their documents and information, tested. That would threaten the future of CHIS capability and the results of those inspections are published within and consequently increase the threat to the public. The his annual report. A public authority must then take Investigatory Powers Commissioner has wide-ranging steps to implement any recommendations made by the powers to ensure that the requirements of the legislation, IPC. This Bill looks to provide robust independent which have been clearly set out in the House today, are oversight, while ensuring that such oversight does not adhered to. result in a loss of operational effectiveness. Authorisations Let me deal with some international comparisons. may need to be granted at short notice, and here I want Different countries have different legal systems, threat to emphasise the human element of CHIS, unlike other pictures and operational practices; simply comparing investigatory powers. That human element means that legislation, therefore, gives only a partial picture. However, these decisions cannot really be retaken; they impact with regard specifically to Canada—our strong ally, directly on the safety and welfare of covert human which has been mentioned a number of times this intelligence sources. evening—our understanding is that the parts of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act to which Sir John Hayes: While dealing with safeguards and Members have referred do not actually relate to covert scrutiny, can my right hon. and learned Friend confirm human intelligence sources. The specifics of what a that the tribunal has the ability to deal with any complaints CHIS may be tasked by the agency to do in Canada—the about inappropriate use of these powers? Furthermore, information some say is contained in the Canadian will he do as I did when I took the Act through the Act—is not on the face of their legislation. That is our House and give an absolute assurance that this will not understanding. be applied to civil society organisations, including trade unions? Regarding the point made about trade unions, economic wellbeing is of course one of the established statutory purposes for which the covert investigatory powers may The Solicitor General: Yes I can, and I will come to be deployed by public authorities. That is to recognise that point in a moment. the threats to the economic wellbeing of the United I have been listening to the views expressed in the Kingdom and that they could be immensely damaging debate by the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, and fundamental in their effect. For example, such my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for threats may include the possibility of a hostile cyber-attack Kenilworth and Southam and the hon. Member for against our critical infrastructure, our financial institutions Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) that providing the or the Government itself. However, it is not the intention Investigatory Powers Commissioner with more real-time in the Bill to prevent legitimate and lawful activity, oversight would strengthen that oversight. We have including activity by trade union organisations. Preventing always been clear that we are willing to engage with such activity would not be necessary for the purpose of workable proposals; I understand the spirit in which economic wellbeing. Trade unions have historically been these remarks were made and I am listening carefully. a bastion of rights in this country and they are, of I thank the members of the Intelligence and Security course, a lawful authority. Committee for their support for the Bill and recognise In response to concerns about the Bill’s impact on the important role they play in providing oversight of potential victims’ ability to seek compensation, it is not our intelligence agencies. The Committee’s oversight the intention of the Bill to affect any individual’s ability role is complemented by the work of the Investigatory to pursue a claim for compensation where appropriate. Powers Commissioner, who is tasked with providing It is not the case that any or all conduct by a CHIS information on public authorities’ use of the power. could be exempted from civil liability under the Bill The shadow Home Secretary made a specific regime. point regarding the disproportionate impact on women Finally, I have heard several Members, including the or members of the BME community. Those under righthon.MemberforOrkneyandShetland(MrCarmichael) investigation are targeted because of their criminal or and the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), terrorist activities, not on the basis of such characteristics. question the need for wider public authorities to have 709 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 710 (Criminal Conduct) Bill (Criminal Conduct) Bill [The Solicitor General] Crosbie, Virginia Loder, Chris Davies, David T. C. Longhi, Marco thepower.Thesepublicauthoritieshaveimportantinvestigative Davies, Mims Lopez, Julia and enforcement responsibilities. It is right that they are Dinenage, Caroline Lord, Mr Jonathan given the necessary powers to undertake these functions Dines, Miss Sarah Malthouse, Kit themselves. Very briefly, I could perhaps give an example Docherty, Leo Mann, Scott Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Marson, Julie to do with the Food Standards Agency, which has been Donelan, Michelle McCartney, Karl mentioned a number of times. Dorries, Ms Nadine Menzies, Mark The Food Standards Agency is tasked with protecting Double, Steve Miller, rh Mrs Maria consumers and the food industry from food crime within Drummond, Mrs Flick Mills, Nigel food supply chains. Examples of food crime include the Duguid, David Mohindra, Mr Gagan use of stolen food in the supply chain, the unlawful Edwards, Ruth Moore, Damien slaughter of animals, the diversion of unsafe food not Ellis, rh Michael Mordaunt, rh Penny fit for human consumption, adulteration of foodstuffs, Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Morris, David substitution or misrepresentation of foodstuffs, and Eustice, rh George Morton, Wendy document fraud. The continuing presence of an individual Evennett, rh Sir David O’Brien, Neil Fabricant, Michael Offord, Dr Matthew within a workplace may necessitate them actively Fletcher, Mark Paterson, rh Mr Owen participating in presenting, packaging and relabelling Fletcher, Nick Penning, rh Sir Mike produce in order to misrepresent its quality and fitness Ford, Vicky Philp, Chris for consumption, which would be criminal offences. As Foster, Kevin Pow, Rebecca I say, all public authorities will be subject to the same Francois, rh Mr Mark Prentis, Victoria robust safeguards and oversight and it is right that we Frazer, Lucy Pritchard, Mark equip them all with the powers they need to protect us. Freer, Mike Pursglove, Tom In closing, we should not underestimate the immense Fysh, Mr Marcus Quin, Jeremy contribution that covert human intelligence sources Gibson, Peter Quince, Will Gideon, Jo Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob have made, and continue to make, to protecting the Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Richardson, Angela public and this country. We can never publicly set out Glen, John Robinson, Gavin the exact details of what they do on our behalf, but let Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Robinson, Mary me assure hon. and right hon. Members that without Graham, Richard Rosindell, Andrew them lives would have been lost. They are exceptional Grant, Mrs Helen Rowley, Lee people, courageous and devoted, and we are all grateful Gray, James Rutley, David to them. It is right that covert human intelligence sources, Green, Chris Scully, Paul their handlers and the public authorities to whom the Griffiths, Kate Seely, Bob Bill relates have the certainty and clarity to continue to Grundy, James Selous, Andrew use this tactic. It is also right, however, that this is Gullis, Jonathan Skidmore, rh Chris subject to robust safeguards and independent oversight. Hall, Luke Smith, Chloe This legislation will achieve both those things and ensure Hancock, rh Matt Smith, Greg we can continue to bring to justice those who want to Hands, rh Greg Smith, rh Julian do us harm. Harper, rh Mr Mark Solloway, Amanda Harris, Rebecca Spencer, rh Mark Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second Harrison, Trudy Stephenson, Andrew time. Hart, rh Simon Stevenson, Jane Hayes, rh Sir John Stewart, Bob The House divided: Ayes 182, Noes 20. Heald, rh Sir Oliver Stewart, Iain Division No. 125] [9.42 pm Heappey, James Streeter, Sir Gary Henry, Darren Stride, rh Mel AYES Hoare, Simon Throup, Maggie Afolami, Bim Brereton, Jack Hollobone, Mr Philip Tolhurst, Kelly Ahmad Khan, Imran Bridgen, Andrew Holloway, Adam Tomlinson, Justin Aldous, Peter Brokenshire, rh James Holmes, Paul Tomlinson, Michael Anderson, Lee Buckland, rh Robert Huddleston, Nigel Trott, Laura Andrew, Stuart Burghart, Alex Hudson, Dr Neil Truss, rh Elizabeth Ansell, Caroline Burns, rh Conor Hunt, Jane Villiers, rh Theresa Argar, Edward Carter, Andy Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Walker, Mr Robin Atherton, Sarah Cartlidge, James Johnson, Dr Caroline Wallis, Dr Jamie Bacon, Gareth Caulfield, Maria Johnson, Gareth Webb, Suzanne Bacon, Mr Richard Chalk, Alex Jones, Andrew Whately, Helen Bailey, Shaun Churchill, Jo Jones, Mr Marcus Whittingdale, rh Mr John Baillie, Siobhan Clarke, Mr Simon Jupp, Simon Wiggin, Bill Barclay, rh Steve Clarke, Theo Kearns, Alicia Wild, James Baron, Mr John Clarke-Smith, Brendan Keegan, Gillian Williamson, rh Gavin Knight, rh Sir Greg Bell, Aaron Clarkson, Chris Wood, Mike Knight, Julian Beresford, Sir Paul Cleverly, rh James Wright, rh Jeremy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Berry, rh Jake Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Young, Jacob Lamont, John Bhatti, Saqib Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Lewer, Andrew Blackman, Bob Collins, Damian Tellers for the Ayes: Lewis, rh Dr Julian James Morris and Bone, Mr Peter Costa, Alberto Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Eddie Hughes Bottomley, Sir Peter Coutinho, Claire Bowie, Andrew Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey 711 Covert Human Intelligence Sources 5 OCTOBER 2020 712 (Criminal Conduct) Bill NOES 1 July 2020 (Business of the House (Private Members’ Bills)), is Abbott, rh Ms Diane Osamor, Kate further amended as follows: Barker, Paula Osborne, Kate leave out “30 October 2020” and insert “6 November Begum, Apsana Saville Roberts, rh Liz 2020” Blake, Olivia Sultana, Zarah (2) the Orders for Second Reading of Bills on the day listed Burgon, Richard Trickett, Jon under Day 1 in the table below are read and discharged; Butler, Dawn Whitley, Mick (3) each such Bill is ordered to be read a second time on the Byrne, Ian Whittome, Nadia corresponding day listed under Day 2 in the table; and Corbyn, rh Jeremy Williams, Hywel (4) those Bills are set down to be read a second time on the Hanna, Claire Winter, Beth appropriate Day 2 in the order in which they were set down to be Lavery, Ian Tellers for the Noes: read a second time on the corresponding Day 1. McDonnell, rh John Lloyd Russell-Moyle and Morris, Grahame Bell Ribeiro-Addy Day 1 Day 2 30 October 2020 6 November 2020 Question accordingly agreed to. Bill read a Second time. —(James Morris.) The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their ADJOURNMENT (OCTOBER) proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 25), COVERT HUMAN INTELLIGENCE SOURCES That this House, at its rising on Friday 23 October, do adjourn until Monday 2 November.—(James Morris.) (CRIMINAL CONDUCT) BILL (PROGRAMME) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)), DELEGATED LEGISLATION That the following provisions shall apply to the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill: Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Committal With the leave of the House, I will put motions 5, 6, 7 and 8 together. (1) The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Proceedings in Committee, on Consideration and up to INSOLVENCY and including Third Reading That the Insolvency (Moratorium) (Special Administration for (2) Proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on Energy Licensees) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 943), dated Consideration and any proceedings in legislative grand 2 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought 4 September, be approved. to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which proceedings in Committee of the whole House CHARITIES are commenced. That the Charitable Incorporated Organisations (Insolvency (3) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not and Dissolution) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020 (S.I., previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment 2020, No. 856), dated 12 August 2020, a copy of which was laid of interruption on that day. before this House on 13 August, be approved. (4) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, to EDUCATION any proceedings on Consideration or to other proceedings up to That the draft Apprenticeships (Alternative English Completion and including Third Reading. Conditions and Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this Other proceedings House on 10 September, be approved. (5) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.— PUBLIC HEALTH (James Morris.) That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Bolton) Question agreed to. Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 974), dated 10 September 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 10 September, be Business without Debate approved.—(James Morris.) Question agreed to. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BILLS) FUTURE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE Ordered, EUROPEAN UNION That: Ordered, That Mark Fletcher be discharged from the Future Relationship (1) the Resolution of the House of 16 January 2020 (Business with the European Union Committee and Lee Anderson be of the House (Private Members’ Bills)), as amended by the added.—(Bill Wiggin, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.) Orders of the House of 25 March, 22 April, 12 May, 10 June and 713 5 OCTOBER 2020 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 714

Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme principle of sentencing, yet all too often we see cases of offending where serious sexual and violent offenders That this House Motion made, and Question proposed, are not receiving sentences that reflect the severity of do now adjourn.— (James Morris.) their crimes. The passing of correct sentencing is crucial, and 9.58 pm based on the right legislation and procedure, it will Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): I am grateful for the bring increased public confidence. However, despite the opportunity to open this Adjournment debate on an Government’s extension of the scheme in recent years, issue that is of great importance to my constituents. We which has been strongly welcomed in Ashfield and have a brilliant judicial system in our country—it is the Eastwood, my constituents are still concerned that not envy of the world—and we get it right most of the time. enough crimes are included on the scheme’s eligibility However, sometimes we get it wrong when it comes to list. The extension of the scheme will keep offenders sentencing. The good news is that we have the unduly who pose a risk to the public off the streets for longer lenient sentence scheme, a highly successful scheme that and help restore public confidence that robust sentences allows sentences for certain offences that are unduly are executed in a way that better reflects the gravity of lenient to be referred to the Attorney General and, the crimes committed. subsequently, the Court of Appeal, to hopefully get the In previous years, we have seen the scheme work well sentences of some of the worst criminals in our society and become increasingly popular. In November 2017, increased. the Solicitor General noted that the number of sentences It is right that the most serious offenders, including considered by the Attorney General’s office had more those who have committed violent and sexual offences, than doubled between 2010 and 2016, from 342 to 837. should spend more time in prison to match the severity The Attorney General said that the 833 referrals received of their crimes. The Prime Minister has been clear that by his office in 2016 were a 17% increase from the the Government he leads will strengthen public confidence previous year. in the criminal justice system, and on behalf of the residents of Ashfield and Eastwood, I will support legislation designed to achieve that. Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are strict deadlines Legislation was recently introduced in Parliament to for the unduly lenient sentence scheme, which sometimes abolish automatic halfway release for serious offenders mean that a victim or member of a victim’s family who who receive standard fixed-term sentences of seven wishes to challenge a sentence is unable to do so because years or more. That includes those found guilty of rape, they have not received proper advice? I have the case of manslaughter or grievous bodily harm with intent. Instead, Tracey Hanson, whose son Josh Hanson was brutally a new requirement to serve two thirds of a sentence in murdered. She applied in the 28 days but was past the prison was introduced, with the existing strict licence office-hours deadline, so she was not able to challenge conditions on release continuing. That action means the sentence. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there that around 2,000 serious offenders will spend longer in is a need for better advice for victims beforehand so that custody, keeping the public safe—and rightly so. they can challenge sentences properly and be aware of their rights? Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con): With the permission of my hon. Friend, which I sought in advance, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder Lee Anderson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that whether he agrees with me that the Government also intervention, and I totally agree that more advice should need to tackle the vexatious liberal bourgeois lawyers be readily available for the victims of these horrid who try to get the thugs, villains and crooks that he crimes. describes— The scheme has seen many recent successes, including in relation to a 28-year-old male from Leeds who was 10 pm found guilty of rape in 2019. This abhorrent individual was originally sentenced to 14 years and six months’ Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). imprisonment. After the sentence was reviewed as too Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House lenient, it was altered to 18 years, with an extended do now adjourn.—(James Morris.) licence of eight years—that is an extra four years for this vile criminal to reflect on his wicked crime and four Lee Anderson: I welcome the fact that this Government more years that he is off our streets. want to go further as part of their determination to My constituents in Ashfield and Eastwood are delighted protect the public from serious offenders. with results such as that, particularly when they see first The Government have published a sentencing White hand the effectiveness of the scheme in reviewing sentences Paper, which represents the largest reform to sentencing closer to home. Eighteen-year-old Edi Gomes of for almost 20 years. Victims will have the power to Nottinghamshire was convicted of a city centre stabbing query sentences for a wider range of crimes, as the and originally sentenced at Nottingham Crown court in scheme has been extended to cover 14 new offences, May 2019 to 240 hours of unpaid worked. Most of the including stalking, harassment, child sex abuse and time, our justice system gets things completely right, other sex offences. but the example of Gomes shows that there are cases The priority of Government is the safety and security that need to be reviewed. He got 240 hours of unpaid of their citizens. However, the system of sentencing in work, but a violent offence as serious as wounding England and Wales does not always command the with intent and possessing a bladed article warrants a confidence of the public. Public protection is a key custodial sentence. 715 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme5 OCTOBER 2020 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 716

Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): My hon. they each received an extra three years on top of their Friend is making some powerful points. Does he agree original sentences. Those men deserve nothing less than that it is not just about the sentence but about the 19 years’ imprisonment. charges in the first place? It is critical that the Crown I appeal to the Attorney General to consider extending Prosecution Service matches the right crime with the the scheme to ensure that all crimes where someone has right charges. For example, the CPS often prefers to died are eligible for review. Although death by dangerous charge an assault at a lower level, which means it is driving is covered by the unduly lenient sentence scheme, likely to be dealt with in a magistrates court and result death by careless driving is not. It is my belief that if a in a lower sentence, because in the opinions of some in crime involves a death, that should be a triggering the CPS there is more likely to be a conviction as a factor in deciding whether it is serious enough to be result. The cases therefore never get to the Crown reviewed. Court, where they really need to be. There has been some success with the scheme in terms of sexual offences, with the recent example of Lee Anderson: My hon. Friend is quite right: sometimes school bus driver Robert Woolner, who took photos it is the easy option to put a case through a magistrates of young girls leaving his bus and was found guilty of court rather than a Crown court. I completely agree, attempting to arrange a child sex offence. He will now and I want our judiciary system to take the harder be imprisoned for longer after his sentence was reviewed option in future to ensure that such vile crimes are put under the scheme. Woolner was arrested after he was through the Crown court and result in the maximum caught communicating and discussing oral sex with a sentence possible. person whom he thought was a 13-year-old boy. The boy was in fact an undercover police officer, and the offender was arrested in the place where they had Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): My arranged to meet. Police then found extreme pornographic hon. Friend is one of the soundest voices in this House content on Woolner’s phone, as well as three videos who entered in 2019. He is a true champion for the now made during his employment as a school bus driver “blue wall”, as it is dubbed. In Stoke-on-Trent North, showing under the skirts of schoolgirls as they left the Kidsgrove and Talke, we had an example of a young school bus. man who was brutally stabbed, along with a cyclist who was passing by. The young man who stabbed them On 17 July, Woolner was originally sentenced at received only a three-year sentence with the promise of St Albans Crown Court to 12 months’ imprisonment an 18-month release. My hon. Friend referred to a case for attempting to arrange or facilitate a child sex offence, in his area where knife crime was not being handled possessing extreme pornographic images and multiple seriously. Does he agree that, if we are to tackle the counts of recording an image under clothing. Following scourge of knife crime, the sentence must fit the crime? the Solicitor General’s intervention, the Court of Appeal increased his sentence to two years and six months’ imprisonment. An individual such as Robert Woolner, Lee Anderson: I completely agree once again that the who is evidently extremely dangerous, shows us exactly sentence must fit the crime. The unduly lenient sentence why this scheme is necessary. scheme is tailored for such incidents, and I hope that it The Government must continue to work to fulfil our has been referred to the Attorney General. manifesto commitments to bring in tougher sentences. Edi Gomes in Nottinghamshire was sentenced to A more efficient approach to sentencing will grow 240 hours of unpaid work and was then back out on the confidence in the criminal justice system’s ability to deal streets. That is not justice for the victim, and it sends effectively with the worst offenders and protect citizens. out the wrong message to the public and our police. I No one should feel unsafe walking our streets, so I look was therefore delighted to hear that the case was referred to the Minister with great optimism and belief that this to the Attorney General, whose office agreed that the Government will take the approach I have outlined and case should be referred to the Court of Appeal under seriously consider extending the unduly lenient sentence the scheme, which ruled that his previous non-custodial scheme to cover more sentences. Thank you so much, sentence was too lenient and that he should be locked Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me the chance, on up. Following the review, Gomes was sentenced to behalf of the people of Ashfield and Eastwood, to put 18 months in custody. this debate to this House. To have a long-term impact on reducing knife crime, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): it is essential that the police, the justice system and Order. Before I bring in the Minister, I just wanted to communities take a stand together.The custodial sentencing explain that when the Adjournment debate starts before decision sends the right message to those who carry and 10 o’clock, we have to move the motion again. That is use knives in Nottinghamshire and across the country. why I had to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. I hope I did The scheme sends a message to the general public that not put him off his stride—it does not sound as though the Government will do whatever it takes to ensure that I did. the people who commit these offences face the full consequences of their actions. 10.11 pm My constituents were further encouraged by the The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): I commend my effectiveness of the scheme when, in 2018, two hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson) Nottinghamshire drug dealers were jailed over the for a powerful speech on behalf of his constituents and importation of more than £65 million-worth of cocaine for securing this debate on this important topic. It says and heroin and handed 16-year custodial sentences. a good deal about him that his chosen topic has secured More than 142 kilos of drugs were seized at the helm of the attendance of so many of our hon. Friends and the two men, and with their sentences ruled too lenient hon. Members for this Adjournment debate. 717 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme5 OCTOBER 2020 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 718

[The Solicitor General] Following manifesto commitments by this Government and a further commitment in the 2018 victims strategy, I join my hon. Friend in recognising, as he did in his in November 2019 the Government extended the scheme opening comments, our brilliant judiciary. They are to 14 further offences including stalking, harassment, rightly renowned the world over for their intellectual coercive and controlling behaviour and additional child brilliance and integrity. I also agree with him about the sexual offences, particularly those involving indecent importance of the unduly lenient sentence scheme. It is images of children and abusing a position of trust with a vital feature of our criminal justice system that the a child. I am sure that my hon. Friend and Members Court of Appeal has the ability, and has had for some across the House will agree that including those horrific 30 years, to intervene in the small but important number and critically damaging offences in the scheme was an of cases where sentencing judges get it wrong. Since its important step to take. Those abhorrent crimes carry a introduction more than 30 years ago, the scheme has distressing and long-lasting impact, and it is our duty to allowed prosecutors, victims, family members and the hold perpetrators of the most horrific and serious offences general public—in fact, anyone at all— to seek a review to account. by the Law Officers, which means by myself or by the We have successfully referred cases under the extended Attorney General, of sentences in the most serious scheme to the Court of Appeal. I have done so, including cases that they consider to be unduly lenient. in person. That includes the particularly horrific case of We have some 80,000 criminal cases in this country Haitch Macklin, who was sentenced to 20 months’ per annum, and I wish to be clear that in the vast imprisonment for offences of making indecent images majority of them—more than 99%—sentencing judges of children. That case involved no fewer than 2,196 get it right. However, the ULS scheme remains an indecent photographs and videos in which young children important safety mechanism to rectify errors in sentencing were horrifically abused. I referred the case to the Court and to ensure that justice is done in individual cases. As of Appeal, and the sentence was increased from 20 months’ I have said, the number of sentences found to be unduly imprisonment to four years’ imprisonment. lenient continues to be a very small proportion, but the Every case referred to my office that falls within the number of cases considered by my office has grown scheme is carefully considered by either myself or the significantly, In 2010, 342 sentences were considered by Attorney General, and I take great pride in the scheme my office, whereas in 2019 that had increased to 577. and the justice that it delivers to victims and their The Law Officers referred 93 cases to the Court of families. I personally present cases in court wherever I Appeal, which led to a sentence increase in 63 of those can. I presented the reference in the case of Joshua cases. Dalgarno. Dalgarno was an offender who met his former partner on a dating website. He inflicted a range of As my hon. Friend knows, this Government are fully domestic abuse on her between June and September committed to ensuring that justice is done for victims of 2019. The offending comprised a number of violent crime, and the ULS scheme is an important part of attacks, obsessive and controlling contact by telephone, that. He proposes an extension of the scheme to cover controlling the contact the victim had with others, more sexual offences and crimes where someone has monitoring her telephone and social media contact died. Of course, these are clearly serious offences and with others and taking her car. The abuse even continued they are often traumatising crimes for victims and their after the offender’s arrest. Having been released on bail, families, and it is right that they deserve serious and he threatened the victim and her sister on another careful consideration by the criminal justice system. He occasion, and he had a history of violent offending specifically mentioned that the offence of causing death against his former partners. The offender was originally by careless driving is not within the scheme. Two key given a community sentence for an offence of controlling principles apply to sentencing: the harm caused by a and coercive behaviour. The Court of Appeal agreed crime and the culpability. In terms of harm, that offence with my submission that the sentence was unduly lenient involves the most serious consequence—a death. I want and increased it to three years’ imprisonment. to reassure my hon. Friend that I recognise this, and it is not something we take lightly at all. In terms of culpability, It is vital that, in cases such as these, abusers are truly there is an important distinction between dangerous brought to justice and victims and the public are afforded and careless driving, and the sentencing regime reflects protection against further abuse. That is why the ULS that. Sometimes the consequences of a collision may be scheme is so essential, to ensure that perpetrators of the entirely disproportionate to the culpability of the offender. most serious crimes who inflict violence and psychological A relatively minor action by a driver or a single moment abuse on their victims are held accountable. of inattention may have horrendous and tragic As well as correcting sentencing errors, the ULS consequences. That, of course, does not change the fact scheme contributes to clarifying the law, recently in the that the consequences of these cases are dire and devastating area of so-called one-punch manslaughter and in cases for families. in which offenders believe that they are arranging sexual contact with a child but are in fact speaking with The intention of the ULS scheme is that it is reserved undercover police officers—we are seeing a fair few for the most serious cases. That being said, the remit of such cases. The Court of Appeal agreed with my any extension to the ULS scheme lies with the Ministry submissions in the cases of Barney Coyle and Michael of Justice, and the scheme has been extended in recent Taiwo. Those horrific but unconnected cases involved times. It now covers all cases that are triable only in the the all too often seen scenario in which, sadly, a punch Crown court. As well as other serious offences, it covers thrown in the heat of the moment resulted in the death murder, manslaughter, rape, child sex offences, drug of another human being. The ULS references for dealing, racially and religiously aggravated crimes, arson, both cases led the Court of Appeal to clarify that, criminal damage and terrorism offences. notwithstanding that an offender may not intend to kill, 719 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme5 OCTOBER 2020 Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme 720 the culpability of the offender means that such offences do, take the utmost care in that assessment. We frequently can be of such seriousness that judges need to sentence receive positive feedback from victims and their families within the higher categories of the sentencing guidelines. where sentences of offenders are increased; I must say The cases of Kyle Edwards and Michael Dawson that it can be quite moving when we receive letters and involved the offenders arranging or facilitating the the like from those who have been bereaved, for example, commission of child sex offences. Both offenders believed and who are grateful that the case has been reviewed by that they were speaking with children; however, they the Law Officers and referred to the Court of Appeal. were speaking with undercover police officers. I referred However, the scheme is kept under constant review, and both cases on the basis that I concluded that the sentences I understand that a case may be made that further were unduly lenient in and of themselves, but it was also individual offences or categories of cases merit inclusion. clear that the application of sentencing law in the area It is important that there is finality in sentencing for could benefit from clarification. Notwithstanding that both victims and defendants. Parliament intended this the offences do not actually involve a real child, sentences to be an exceptional power, and it is important that any must sometimes—in fact, always—look at the culpability extension is considered carefully.I assure my hon. Friend of the offender, too: what did they intend to do if they that I will continue to carefully review every sentence met the child? The Court of Appeal agreed with that referred to my office that is within the scheme. The submission and further emphasised the appropriate Attorney General and I will listen to any representations approach to sentencing in these cases. made regarding extending and improving the scheme. I will touch briefly on public awareness. My hon. Friend is right that awareness of the scheme is vital. We Bambos Charalambous: On the point about improving receive a volume of referrals from victims and the wider the scheme, the Solicitor General mentioned awareness public that indicate that they are aware in principle, but as an issue. He also mentioned the victims code coming I know that we can do more. The Ministry of Justice is up soon, but can he enlighten me as to whether he in the process of revising the victims code to address its envisages there being greater awareness for victims and complexity and give victims more clarity on their rights. their families of the existence of the scheme? Many of My hon. Friend also referred to the sentencing White them are not aware and do not know about it, so they Paper; as he correctly stated, the priority of anyGovernment cannot bring cases to his attention. is the safety and security of their citizens. It is also the Government’s role to provide the right sentencing The Solicitor General: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s framework for judges to follow. The ULS scheme is, of point. He is right, and we are doing everything we can course, focused on how judges apply the law and the to make the existence of the scheme more generally Sentencing Council guidelines as they stand; it is Parliament known by victims and their families. We are in liaison that decides the legal framework in which they operate. with the Crown Prosecution Service about how that is My hon. Friend is right that the system of sentencing done. The victims code should help in that regard. We in England and Wales sometimes does not command are seeing a major increase in the number of cases being the confidence of the general public at large. That is referred to me and the Attorney General, so the scheme why I am grateful to him for the opportunity this is clearly getting through to a certain extent, but there is evening to highlight not only the ULS scheme, which I more to be done. believe commands the confidence of the public, but the In conclusion, I thank my hon. Friend the Member measures that the Government and the Ministry of for Ashfield for raising the ULS scheme on behalf of Justice will take to tackle sentencing on a wider scale. his constituents, whom he powerfully and ably represents. The Government will legislate on the measures in the I hope I have reassured him that we as Law Officers take sentencing White Paper in the near future. That legislation very seriously our role in the scheme. I am pleased to be will include measures targeted at certain serious violent able to highlight some of the recent successes we have and sexual offenders so that they will serve two thirds of had, which have led to violent and sexual offenders their sentence in custody, rather than being released being given sentences they deserve and helped to bring automatically at the halfway point. about justice for their victims. In conclusion, I am immensely proud of my involvement Question put and agreed to. with the unduly lenient sentencing scheme and the justice that it brings for victims of some of the most horrific crimes. We can only refer cases that appear to 10.25 pm us as Law Officers to be unduly lenient, but we will, and House adjourned. 721 5 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 722

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The following is the list of Members currently certified Rosie Cooper (West Chris Elmore as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated Lancashire) as their proxy: Jeremy Corbyn (Islington Bell Ribeiro-Addy North) Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) Patrick Grady Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and Stuart Andrew Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy West Devon) North and Stoke Newington) Angela Crawley (Lanark and Patrick Grady Debbie Abrahams (Oldham Chris Elmore Hamilton East) East and Saddleworth) Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) Chris Elmore Imran Ahmad Khan Stuart Andrew (Wakefield) Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Caroline Nokes Aylesford) Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Chris Elmore Green) Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore Dr Rosena Allin-Khan Chris Elmore Geraint Davies (Swansea Chris Evans (Tooting) West) Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) Chris Elmore Alex Davies-Jones Chris Elmore (Pontypridd) Gareth Bacon (Orpington) Stuart Andrew Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Patrick Grady Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew East Falkirk) Norfolk) Marsha De Cordova Rachel Hopkins Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) Stuart Andrew (Battersea) Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Patrick Grady Martin Docherty-Hughes Patrick Grady Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew (West Dunbartonshire) Billericay) Michelle Donelan Stuart Andrew Margaret Beckett (Derby Chris Elmore (Chippenham) South) Nadine Dorries (Mid Stuart Andrew Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Stuart Andrew Bedfordshire) Valley) Peter Dowd (Bootle) Chris Elmore Jake Berry (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Darwen) Erdington) Mhairi Black (Paisley and Patrick Grady Philip Dunne (Ludlow) Jeremy Hunt Renfrewshire South) Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) Maria Caulfield Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady Lochaber) Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew Sir David Evennett Stuart Andrew (Bexleyheath and Crayford) Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen Patrick Grady North) Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew Mr Peter Bone Stuart Andrew Marion Fellows (Motherwell Patrick Grady (Wellingborough) and Wishaw) Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Patrick Grady Colleen Fletcher (South Chris Elmore Chryston and Bellshill) Ribble) Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Leicestershire) South) Deidre Brock (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore North and Leith) Deptford) Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew and Wickford) Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Zarah Sultana George Freeman (Mid Bim Afolami Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Norfolk) West) Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) Stuart Andrew Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Bell Ribeiro-Addy Derby) Sir Roger Gale (North Caroline Nokes Thanet) Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Hodge Hill) Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) Steve Baker Amy Callaghan (East Patrick Grady Patricia Gibson (North Patrick Grady Dunbartonshire) Ayrshire and Arran) Sarah Champion (Rotherham) Chris Elmore Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Douglas Chapman Patrick Grady Edgbaston) (Dunfermline and West Fife) Dame Cheryl Gillan Stuart Andrew Feryal Clark (Enfield North) Chris Elmore (Chesham and Amersham) Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough Stuart Andrew Mary Glindon (North Chris Elmore South and East Cleveland) Tyneside) Chris Clarkson (Heywood Stuart Andrew Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone Stuart Andrew and Middleton) and The Weald) Damian Collins (Folkestone Stuart Andrew Peter Grant (Glenrothes) Patrick Grady and Hythe) Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) Patrick Grady 723 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote5 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 724

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Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady West) h-Eileanan an Iar) Nia Griffith (Llanelli) Chris Elmore Karl McCartney (Lincoln) Stuart Andrew Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Andy McDonald Chris Elmore Reddish) (Middlesbrough) Fabian Hamilton (Leeds Chris Elmore John McDonnell (Hayes and Zarah Sultana North East) Harlington) Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Patrick Grady Stewart Malcolm McDonald Patrick Grady Cowdenbeath) (Glasgow South) Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Stuart C. McDonald Patrick Grady Hull West and Hessle) (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore Kirkintilloch East) (Camberwell and Peckham) Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow Patrick Grady Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew North East) Hertfordshire) Anna McMorrin (Cardiff Chris Elmore Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore North) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Patrick Grady John Mc Nally (Falkirk) Patrick Grady Nairn, Badenoch and Khalid Mahmood Chris Elmore Strathspey) (Birmingham, Perry Barr) Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Fay Jones Shabana Mahmood Chris Elmore Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Barking) Ian Mearns (Gateshead) Chris Elmore Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore Mark Menzies (Fylde) Stuart Andrew (Washington and Sunderland Edward Miliband (Doncaster Chris Elmore West) North) Kate Hollern (Blackburn) Chris Elmore Carol Monaghan (Glasgow Patrick Grady Adam Holloway (Gravesham) Maria Caulfield North West) Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) Stuart Andrew David Morris (Morecambe Stuart Andrew and Lunesdale) Sir George Howarth Chris Elmore (Knowsley) Ian Murray (Edinburgh Chris Elmore South) Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and Stuart Andrew The Border) James Murray (Ealing North) Chris Elmore Tom Hunt (Ipswich) Dehenna Davison Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Patrick Grady Renfrewshire North) Imran Hussain (Bradford Mohammad Yasin John Nicolson (Ochil and Patrick Grady East) South Perthshire) Christine Jardine (Edinburgh Wendy Chamberlain Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) Rebecca Harris West) Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Patrick Grady Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) Chris Elmore Bute) Ranil Jayawardena (North Stuart Andrew Kate Osamor (Edmonton) Nadia Whittome East Hampshire) Mr Owen Paterson (North Stuart Andrew Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil Chris Elmore Shropshire) and Rhymney) Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Stuart Andrew Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) Stuart Andrew Hempstead) Ruth Jones (Newport West) Chris Elmore Toby Perkins Chris Elmore Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew Dr Dan Poulter (Central Peter Aldous Melton) Suffolk and North Ipswich) Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton Chris Elmore Eccles South) South East) Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore Christina Rees (Neath) Chris Elmore Gorton) Mary Robinson (Cheadle) Stuart Andrew Sir Greg Knight (East Stuart Andrew Andrew Rosindell (Romford) Rebecca Harris Yorkshire) Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) Stuart Andrew Julian Knight (Solihull) Stuart Andrew Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Chris Elmore Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) Kate Osborne Southall) Chris Law (Dundee West) Patrick Grady Mr Barry Sheerman Chris Elmore Clive Lewis (Norwich South) Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Huddersfield) Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Stuart Andrew Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh Patrick Grady (Bridgwater and West East) Somerset) Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Chris Elmore Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) Chris Elmore Kilburn) Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) Stuart Andrew Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) Stuart Andrew Kenny MacAskill (East Patrick Grady Alyn Smith (Stirling) Patrick Grady Lothian) Chloe Smith (Norwich North) Stuart Andrew 725 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote5 OCTOBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 726

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Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) Stuart Andrew Dr Jamie Wallis (Bridgend) Stuart Andrew Sir Gary Streeter (South West Stuart Andrew Claudia Webbe (Leicester Bell Ribeiro-Addy Devon) East) Mel Stride (Central Devon) Stuart Andrew Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady Ayrshire) Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) Ian Byrne Hywel Williams (Arfon) Liz Saville Roberts Karl Turner (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) Nadia Whittome Hull East) 1WH 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 2WH Leave the Chamber is not a true reflection of the level of Westminster Hall concern about the issue or interest in speaking in the debate, but there are restrictions to maintain social Monday 5 October 2020 distancing. There is no doubt, however, about the level of interest in and concern about the impact of the pandemic on [DAME ELEANOR LAING in the Chair] new mums, new families and their babies. In a matter of weeks, almost a quarter of a million people signed the Covid-19: Maternity and Parental Leave petition, which calls for maternity leave to be extended for a further three months. The powerful argument 4.30 pm made by the petition is that the additional months would make up for the crucial time that parents have Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Welcome lost during the pandemic and lockdown, when they to the first sitting of Westminster Hall under these very have been isolated from support networks that are vital unusual and temporary arrangements. I hardly need for a baby’s development. It would also alleviate some remind hon. Members that there have been some changes of their anxiety about having to find appropriate childcare to normal practice to support the new call list system and make arrangements to return to work when not and to ensure that social distancing can be respected. only their own world, but the world at large has been As I look around, the Room is a picture of perfection— turned upside down. nobody is less than 2 metres away from anyone else. I Becoming a parent can be overwhelming. No matter ask hon. Members to sanitise microphones before using how well or easily a new parent adjusts, it is rarely quite them and to respect the one-way system for moving how they imagined it. It is not only the physical changes, around the Room. You will find in front of you a such as the impact of the birth itself, but the emotional, diagram that explains by colours where we are—it is hormonal and sleep-deprived journey, that can take an self-explanatory. enormous toll on new parents. One thing is for sure: life Only Members who are sitting on the horseshoe may will never go back to how it was before. Add to that speak. That is because of microphones and so on, but it bringing new life into the world in the middle of a also helps us to keep the numbers in the Room manageable. pandemic, and there is a clear case for giving new Members may speak only if they are on the call lists. parents at least some more time, if not a whole range of That applies even if debates are undersubscribed, although additional support. this debate is not. Members cannot join the debate if The huge support for this petition sparked an inquiry they are not on the call list. Members are not expected by the Petitions Committee, which I have the privilege to remain for the wind-ups, because those in the latter to chair. Over the course of the inquiry, almost stages of the call list, who will use the seats in the Public 70,000 people shared their experiences with us. We held Gallery, need to move on to the horseshoe when seats online evidence sessions with expert witnesses, including become available. At the moment, you are all perfectly psychologists, health visitors, childcare sector experts spaced and able to speak from where you are. and new parents. I pay tribute to the brave and powerful I remind hon. Members that there is less of an contributors to our inquiry, to our lead petitioners expectation that they stay for the following two speeches James and Jessie, parents to baby Elliot, and to Bethany, once they have already spoken. That does not mean that mum to baby Jayden. I have huge admiration for those they can abuse the system by popping in and out again, new parents who have not only faced significant challenges which will be frowned upon, but obviously, we have to themselves but have fought to get the help that they and have that rule if we want to move people around in an parents up and down the country need. oversubscribed debate so that some can leave and others The message that emerged from our Committee’s can come in. Members may wish to stay beyond their inquiry was clear: the impact of this pandemic on new speech, but they should be aware that doing so may parents has been profound, and a failure to act now prevent the Members in the Public Gallery from moving risks impacting the mental and physical health and to the horseshoe. Does anyone have any reasonable wellbeing not just of new parents in the immediate term questions about procedure before we properly begin? but of their babies in the long term. We were told in stark terms that we are the first generation of legislators Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): Do we move to know about the impact of maternal mental health on around the Room by passing behind you? the development of children. We therefore have no excuse not to act. Madam Deputy Speaker: Yes, please—it is a one-way anticlockwise system. I call Catherine McKinnell. Many new parents want an extension of paid parental leave to give them time to find adequate childcare and 4.33 pm settle their babies for their return to work. In many cases, previously arranged childcare or support from Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) relatives is just not an option. We know that new (Lab): I beg to move, mothers are at a much greater risk of discrimination That this House has considered e-petition 306691 relating to and redundancy in normal times, but as we face the the impact of Covid-19 on maternity and parental leave. seismic economic impact of this pandemic, those risks It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, will become greater. Madam Deputy Speaker, and to be able once again to Therefore, in July our Committee published a report hold Westminster Hall debates—I am very grateful not just recommending the core ask of the petition but to all the House staff who have worked incredibly hard making no fewer than 23 recommendations to the to make it possible. The number of hon. Members in Government. Each sensible, constructive and deliverable 3WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 4WH Leave Leave [Catherine McKinnell] On protecting pregnant women in the workplace: “Daily I see women asking for advice after tricky discussions suggestion was designed to lessen the impact of the with HR where they’ve been told that childcare isn’t the problem crisis on new parents. As well as extending maternity of the employer, or that they can’t go onto unpaid leave and so are leave, we called on the Government to extend access to forced to resign.” free dental care, capture more data on the uptake of The right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), parental leave, extend the furlough scheme to include all who I am pleased is with us today, has introduced a pregnant women, amend the self-employment income ten-minute rule Bill on the issue,which reinforces cross-party support scheme, update the Government discussions support. Will the Government urgently review their with the baby group sector, fund and provide additional approach and bring forward a clear timetable for these catch-up support, increase health visitor services, provide planned reforms to be implemented? Women need neonatal leave, pay and rapid testing, conduct an urgent protection now. review into childcare and a longer-term independent Health visitor services were already stretched before review, provide redundancy protection for new mums, the pandemic and now some have reportedly been forced extend the period for bringing an employment tribunal to care for up to 2,400 families with newborns at a time, claim, extend adoption leave and pay, and provide which is 10-times the recommended number.Mary Renfrew, support for special guardians. professor of mother and infant health at the University Despite the urgency, it was not until September that of Dundee, has warned: the Government responded, and it was an extremely “Taking resources away from maternity care doesn’t make disappointing response. Almost every one of our sense because we know that will create long-term harm.” recommendations was rejected. The Government agreed Will the Minister commit today to urgently reviewing to provide an update on discussion with the baby group health visitor provision, in light of the clear evidence sector and hold a discussion meeting with the groups to that the services are overwhelmed? understand how parents could be supported to return to work. That was the only ask that the Government On the challenges faced by baby and toddler groups, agreed to. In rejecting our evidenced, reasonable and the First 1001 Days Movement said that the Government’s deliverable recommendations, they demonstrated a failure response to understand the deep anxiety of mothers and fathers “shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of parent across the country, and a failure to follow the science. and baby groups.” At People’s PMQs on 10 July, new mum Bethany The Government continue to fail to listen and their Jade did an excellent job of putting this issue to the response, published today, claims that there is a “wealth” Prime Minister, who promised that he would take a of Government guidance available, but the sector has look at our report. Fast forward to September, and I said repeatedly that this guidance is not clear enough. raised it again with the Prime Minister in the Liaison Many groups are struggling to reopen, as venues and Committee, but he had clearly made no further effort to insurers interpret the guidance differently. Will the follow Bethany Jade’s request. The fact that he is a new Government recognise the problem and make simple father during this pandemic makes me wonder how changes to the language, as suggested in both our none of this resonated more. correspondence and by representatives of the sector, to provide much-needed clarity to a sector they have The case is told most powerfully by new parents acknowledged is important to parents? themselves. Petitioner Bethany Power said: On access to childcare, Maternity Action has said: “I am in shock of the Government’s dismissal.” “Since March, the Government has rightly spent unprecedented Tiana said: sums to support employment. However, if it does not take urgent “Mums and babies don’t matter to this Government. It’s more action to shore up the childcare sector and enable parents, particularly important that people can play golf or get a pint.” mothers, to return to work, much of that investment will be wasted… Four in ten working mothers with young children Charlotte said: cannot get… enough childcare to cover their working hours.” “One of the things that I have found hardest and most distressing Will the Government take another look at this and about this time has been the lack of contact with family and recognise the challenges that is causing for many working friends. I have seen my family twice this year due to the lockdown parents across the country? and restrictions in place and so have missed this support.” Even neonatal leave, an existing policy commitment Sarah said: and one that we recommended should be piloted now, “I spent the whole of my third trimester unable to see my was rejected. The charity Bliss has said: family, prepare for my birth as antenatal classes were cancelled, go to shops to buy essentials and uncertain if my husband would “Research shows families are struggling with the practicalities be allowed into the birth of our first child. This caused a huge of having a sick baby alongside job insecurity and restricted amount of distress for me and effected my mental health”. finances, and that extra support is desperately needed.” Liz said: In conclusion, it has been almost six months since the petition started and many new parents have passed the “Discriminated against and forgotten about. Not even an point at which their maternity entitlement has come to extension to free dental care that we can’t access.” an end. Is the Government’s strategy just to wait the Testimony from the sector has come in thick and fast. situation out? In the spring, lockdown placed a huge On the Government’s claim that the UK’s maternity strain on people and local restrictions are causing many offer is generous, Emily Tredget from Happity said: to worry that we are heading for more of the same. An “Whilst it is amongst the longest, it is sadly lacking in terms of ever-growing cohort of new parents have been left without financial support, actually being one of the worst in the developed support at a crucial time in their and their babies’ lives. world.” There are many practical and realistic steps, as set out in 5WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 6WH Leave Leave our Committee’s report, that the Government could Samara said: take to support new parents. To date, we have heard “My biggest challenge was feeling isolated at home, trying to many warm words from Ministers, but these will not look after a baby and a toddler without much support. I felt provide parents with the support they need. overwhelmed and alone, so I would have loved some support with There is a long-established principle that, even in childcare from other family members.” good times, a blanket of support is wrapped around Louisa told me: new mums and their babies. That is why we have maternity “I feel like coronavirus has stolen my maternity leave. The first leave, health visitors, post-partum mental health support few months of a baby’s life are about trying to adjust and to get to and a period of free dentistry, to mention just a few. know your newborn. We had only been going to activities for a There is a clear evidence base for that. It not only few weeks before the support network disappeared overnight. supports and protects new mothers at a time of increased From March until September, my daughter did not meet or engage with other babies. I go back to work in December, and vulnerability, but it protects their baby too. If we believe I am already worried about how my daughter will settle into that giving the best start in life to every baby matters, nursery due to her lack of interaction with other adults or that matters during the pandemic too. babies.” It is not good enough to say that we are all in this I also spoke to two mums who gave birth during together, when we know that some people are affected lockdown. Sophie said: much more than others. New mums are clearly hugely “I spent four days in hospital on my own after the birth of my affected by this pandemic, and the consequences could first child. I was struggling to establish breastfeeding and felt last for generations. They have stepped up to the plate. incredibly isolated. My baby had tongue-tie, but because of It is time the Government did their part too. covid, the waiting list to get it sorted was six weeks, so we had to pay privately.” Several hon. Members rose— Finally, Rachel said: Dame Eleanor Laing (in the Chair): Order. We will “I’ve had mental health problems in the past, so I had a care start with a time limit of five minutes for Backbench plan, which involved having a named midwife. That changed due speeches. to covid, and appointments were cancelled. My husband was only allowed in 20 minutes before my daughter was born. My care plan 4.44 pm had involved having my sister and mum coming to help with the baby, but that couldn’t happen. Three weeks after the birth, I Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): It is came down with severe post-natal depression and opted to go to a an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for mother and baby unit.” Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), Many of those stories resonate with me and my own and it is a pleasure to speak in this debate on an issue experience. I hope that the Government listen to our close to my heart, as my son was just four months old collective voice and provide additional support, including when we went down into lockdown in March. We went resources to allow missed health contacts and other from having a busy schedule of baby yoga, coffees with outreach from early years services, such as children’s other mums, leisurely trips to the park, visits from centres, to take place. Children’s centres have closed at family—all the things that people do to get through the pace over the past 10 years, and that trend needs to be sleepless nights and caring for a tiny baby—to overnight reversed now more than ever, with significant investment having no social interaction at all and rarely leaving the given to early years services. Face-to-face health visiting house.On top of that, throw home schooling a five-year-old services must be fully restored; again, they require into the mix—holding a baby in a sling or breastfeeding investment, having been cut over many years. Funding while trying to teach the five-year-old phonics. is also needed for the more informal support, such as For me, being an MP, switching off from work during playgroups and drop-ins, which provide a lifeline for so the pandemic simply was not an option, so when the many families but have struggled to reopen their doors. baby slept, the laptop went on as I dealt with the The Government should also revisit guidance about unprecedented number of emails from constituents. partners being present before and after births. What struck me, though, was that in response to the pandemic, no one in Government seemed to be advocating I thank the Petitions Committee for securing the for the very specific needs of young babies and their debate. More importantly, I thank all the parents who families. That matters, because pregnancy and the first signed the petition and called on the Government to few years of a baby’s life are key developmental stages, listen to their voices. I know at first hand the struggles and adverse experiences and stress during this time can of the past six months. I applaud everyone who has have a long-term impact on a child’s life chances. Sadly, faced maternity and paternity leave in lockdown. I the statistics are clear. The “Babies in Lockdown” report hope, like them, that the Government are listening. commissioned by the Parent-Infant Foundation found that 68% of parents felt that changes brought about by 4.49 pm covid-19 were affecting their unborn baby, baby or young child. The same number also felt that their ability Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): It is a great to cope with pregnancy or to care for their baby had pleasure to speak in this debate. I thank the Petitions been affected by the covid restrictions. Committee for its excellent report, the hon. Members for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) I spoke to some mums from my constituency ahead and for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves) for of the debate, and I want to use the debate as an their contributions to securing the debate, and all the opportunity to give them a voice. Nic told me: organisations that gave evidence towards the report, “Being a new mum, I worry I am not doing enough for my especially Pregnant Then Screwed and Maternity Action. daughter, and also making sure she is eating enough. As the midwife drop-in centres have been closed, I have been unable to Parents have faced extraordinary challenges, and none weigh her or be able to speak to a midwife or health visitor face to more so than new parents during the pandemic. I would face. That has been a real worry for me.” like to comment briefly on three issues raised in the 7WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 8WH Leave Leave [Mrs Maria Miller] in the Government’s recommendations on improving maternity leave. Well, I do not think that the Government’s report and its recommendations. It certainly was good recommendations are where they should be. I urge the to hear the hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge Committee to look at my Bill, the Pregnancy and Maternity reminding us all what it is like to be a new mother or (Redundancy Protection) Bill, which would bring in father and the uncertainty that we all face at that time. protections very similar to those already in place in The lack of access to family members—often mum, Germany to ensure that while women are pregnant, and who is really good at being there at that time—has been up to six months after they return from pregnancy, they very difficult indeed. We are still waiting for my niece to cannot be made redundant in the first place. Too many give birth to her first child, another baby conceived and women—around 50,000 a year, we think—leave their born in the pandemic period. jobs when they are pregnant, just because they are The first specific issue in the report that I would like pregnant. A sharp warning bell has to be sent to the to look at is childcare. Members know that one of the Government, whose own research I am citing, that the most challenging things for our constituents was trying law as it stands is not working and needs to change. to balance work with looking after their children, when often their childcare provider was not able to provide 4.54 pm them with the childcare that they needed, although Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): I thank those obviously many nurseries were open for frontline workers hon. Members who have led on the issue for many and we applaud them for that. I also applaud the months and set out quite a lot of achievable solutions. Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford It is very clear that the pandemic has affected absolutely (Vicky Ford), the Minister in charge of childcare, for everyone in society, but new parents are experiencing the work that they clearly did to ensure that the system particularly acute and harsh point-in-time impacts, because continued to work even in these very difficult circumstances. of the disruption to their plans and to services that they I am thinking particularly of the report’srecommendations would have enjoyed, and because of lost opportunities 19 and 20, which include a call for a review of funding to bond with family and people in the wider community, and of lessons learned. There is always a place for interruption to their childcare plans, and the financial learning lessons, and clearly it has been very frustrating hardship that many will experience. for parents to have to try to balance everything without the childcare that they have come to rely on, but I would The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North like to place it on the record that I think that the (Catherine McKinnell) and others outlined some of Ministers have done an amazing job to ensure that free the feeling about the provision and communication of hours have continued to be available for two, three and protections for pregnant women in the workplace and four-year-olds, that the funding was there even when on furlough. I certainly endorse the recommendations settings were closed, and that more than £3 billion of the Committee and, indeed, those of Maternity continues to be spent on nursery provision. I hope that Action. Unfortunately, the negative financial impacts all local authorities are doing what they need to do to will have extended to self-employed women, many of ensure that that childcare is secure for the future. whom have constructed their career in that way precisely for a better balance of home and work life. Of course, When we look at other areas, particularly the way in no account was made of lost earnings due to maternity which businesses have dealt with the issue, we see a less leave in the qualifying period, and that has left a massive rosy story.Employers have found it even more challenging hole in the replacement income for many women, and than ever to stay within the law regarding their treatment has exacerbated the gender pay gap that already exists of women who are pregnant or on maternity leave. The in the relevant part of the economy. Government are absolutely clear; when I raised the matter with the Secretary of State in May, he said at The threat of redundancy is, as others have said, an the Dispatch Box that acute issue, and Members will know that working mothers are already deeply exposed to redundancy or job “expectant mothers are, as always, entitled to suspension on full pay if a suitable role cannot be found within the workplace.”—[Official downgrading. The coming economic challenges, alongside Report, 12 May 2020; Vol. 676, c. 159.] the catastrophic effects on childcare, will sharpen the risk. The advocacy group Pregnant Then Screwed, which Unfortunately, too many businesses failed to hear that has been relentless on the issue, reports 11% of pregnant or decided not to correctly interpret it, leaving too many women being made redundant, or expecting to be made women either being incorrectly put on sick pay or redundant, in the period in question. That is more than starting maternity leave earlier. We know that more 20 times the incidence in the general population. More women have already been made redundant in the pandemic than half of those women believe that their pregnancy than men, and that mothers are at much higher risk was a factor in the decision. The proportion made or than fathers of being made redundant from this point expecting to be made redundant rises to 15% for working on. mothers, and 46% of those cited issues with childcare Recommendation 4 in the Committee’s report calls provision as a factor. That was already a marginal for economic activity for providers and a huge cost for “clear guidance for employers on their obligations in respect of families, if they were lucky enough to be able to find a pregnant women who cannot safely socially distance at work”, suitable provider. In that context, the period in which reiterating that women have a legal right to full pay. I women can bring forward employment tribunal claims fully support that recommendation—albeit that businesses should be extended. should know that already. As Members have said, the most negative impacts Thirdly, we need better protection for pregnant women may have been felt in the restrictions on attendance by in the first place. I have to slightly disagree with the partners at antenatal sessions and deliveries, and in the report here, because recommendation 21 calls for bringing immediate postpartum period. There is no doubt about 9WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 10WH Leave Leave the pressures and challenges that healthcare providers Others have already spoken out about the need for are trying to balance, but the regulations are deeply greater flexibility for maternity leave and paternity leave, upsetting for many women at an acutely vulnerable brought on by the particular factors and pressures time. The Royal College of Midwives has said: during lockdown. I agree with much of what is in the “Having a trusted birth partner present throughout labour and report and with what the hon. Member for Newcastle birth is known to make a significant difference to the safety and North has said. It has been interesting that the report is well-being of women.” very much informed by the personal testimonies of When the coronavirus is heightening anxiety, many parents, including many new parents. Parents are “that reassurance is more important than ever.” facing extra pressures: school closures, with many parents In particular, the changes in rules and their variation who already had children facing having those children across trusts are creating even more anxiety.What women at home as well as going through pregnancy, confusion can expect when they are expecting can change more for employers and employees about what they are actually than once during a pregnancy. I appreciate that that is entitled to at work and what is safe for them to be able because of the ups and downs of pandemic advice in to work during pregnancy given the coronavirus the community, but I believe such a crucial function considerations, and mixed access to childcare, as the should be protected as we are protecting the ability of hon. Lady said. There is also the added stress of not small children to go to school. Restrictions in this being able to have partners at crucial hospital appointments regard should be among the very last to be made. and scans, and in some cases even at birth, and there are some really tragic cases. I quote the case of Emma Women who have just had babies need support in Kemsley from Saffron Walden who could not even have many ways, to rest, to establish breastfeeding, in some a partner at a termination when she found out at her cases to recover from major abdominal surgery, and of 18-week scan that the baby would not survive outside course just to figure out how to look after a newborn the womb. It was doubly tragic. These are exceptional baby. Some women need to stay in hospital for care and circumstances. These are not ordinary times. specific support, and the rules about partners and visitors are forcing some to choose between hospital care and Babies have become the forgotten part of the population family care. Many will choose the latter and be discharged during the pandemic. Over 330,000 babies have now too soon, which will create long-term impacts. Midwives, been born in England during lockdown. Many new health visitors and volunteer groups are, as other Members family members and parents have been isolated from have outlined, next to angels in that period in the extended family members. They have not had the usual journey as a parent, with the monitoring, advice and loving care and support of grandparents around them. reassurance they provide. It is tragic that that support There have been cases of babies now exposed to other will not have been available for many. babies recoiling because they are not used to babies. They have not been at those post-natal classes where There will be long-term impacts from this year, for there is contact with other babies, so they are just not many people, and the isolation of new parents will be a used to them. It is going to take a lot of normalising big part of that. It will take imagination and resources when we can get back into socialising, which is such an to put in place the measures we can. We will not be able important part of the life of a new baby and of a new to do everything, because of the pandemic restrictions, parent in particular. The problem in respect of health but the Committee has outlined some measures. France, visitors is that the only families permitted to have for example, has just doubled paternity leave allowance. face-to-face contact with health visitors are those that We must make sure that we do the things we can within have been deemed vulnerable. That is such an important the restrictions. item of support in those early days, and is also an Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): After important early warning system for things potentially the next hon. Member, the time limit will be reduced going wrong. Many toddlers, children and new babies to four minutes; but, with five minutes, I call have not had those important early checks, and we hear Mr Tim Loughton. that up to 70% of health visitors have been redeployed to other hospital community settings during the pandemic. That is a really false economy when the impact that 4.59 pm those health visitors can have so early on—for new Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): parents in particular—is absolutely essential. Every year, Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a joy to be 106,000 under-one-year-olds are exposed to domestic back in Westminster Hall. It is a joy to be the first bloke violence, parental substance misuse or severe mental ill to speak in Westminster Hall after the lockdown, and it health, yet only 15,000 of them are supported by social is a decided bonus to have you here in the chair and to workers. see so many colleagues suitably “spaced out”, as I think The Parent-Infant Foundation, which I chair,produced you referred to us earlier. the report “Babies in Lockdown” jointly with Best I congratulate the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Beginnings and Home-Start UK. The report showed Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) on securing this that almost seven in 10 parents felt that the changes debate and on the report from her Committee. It is no brought about by covid were affecting their unborn mean feat to have achieved over 230,000 signatures. I baby or young child. Over two-thirds of respondents in cannot speak with as much authority as can the hon. the survey carried out by us said that, overall, their Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves), ability to cope with pregnancy or care for their baby being so close to having a four-month-old—I am rather had been affected by covid restrictions. Many families closer to being a prospective grandparent—but I speak and young parents from lower income backgrounds as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for and black Asian and minority ethnic communities had conception to age two: first 1001 days, and I chair the been hit harder by the covid pandemic. That is likely to charity the Parent-Infant Foundation. widen the already deep inequalities and early experiences 11WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 12WH Leave Leave [Tim Loughton] plans are to restore the vital health visitors we have lost over the last few years and to help babies and parents to and life chances of children. In the report we recommended catch up on support that they have missed during the a “baby boost” to enable local services to support pandemic? That is absolutely vital. families that had a baby during or close to lockdown, When we talk about the very first stages in a child’s and a new parent-infant premium providing new funding life, we look to children’s centres and nursery schools. for local commissioners targeted at improving outcomes All the support mechanisms have taken a massive hit for the most vulnerable children. because of covid, but they have stepped up. Will the It is essential that those new babies—and new parents Minister readdress the current situation in nursery schools, in particular—get the very best start in life and the best which have not been reimbursed for any of their covid attachment to their children so that when they arrive at costs, because that is an absolute disgrace? We know school they are normalised, socialised, ready, greedy about the confusion and muddle with Government and eager to learn and to get on with their fellow guidance but I am pleased that trusts have been enabled children at school. It is a false economy not to be doing to allow partners to come in for maternity scans, in more. particular. I know that my own trust, which covers Luton and Dunstable hospital, has done that. What Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The time limit is now conversations has the Minister had with trusts? Two reduced to four minutes. I call Sarah Owen. weeks ago, I got a written answer that said that he had had none, which is deeply concerning because trusts 5.4 pm need to be enabled to do this. Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to start by thanking my 5.8 pm hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) for initiating this debate Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): It is a pleasure to here today and by declaring an interest: I had a baby follow the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) just before lockdown. At the beginning of February, I for whom I am full of admiration. When we first arrived gave birth to a beautiful little girl. I thank all the new in Parliament, I remember wondering whether any MP parents who signed the petition and put it on the had fought their first parliamentary seat so heavily agenda here in Parliament today. pregnant. I do not think so. Throughout this pandemic, we have talked about I congratulate the hon. Member for Newcastle upon either very abstract or very specific things such as Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) on her work on this whether people should go to Barnard Castle. What issue. She is right to highlight the issues that underpin people really want us to discuss is what matters to them, this petition. Many of them have been drawn to my the real-life issues, such as “Can I see my loved ones in a attention by an organisation in my constituency, week’s time? Will I be able to spend Eid or Christmas Healthwatch West Berkshire.It touched on points including with my family? Can I celebrate my friend’s wedding? and most importantly the challenges facing new mothers Can I plan my own wedding?”––probably not right during lockdown––I will define that as between March now––“Can I be with my partner when they give birth?”. and July 2020––such as not being able to see close I am glad that we have a chance to talk about something members of their family, meet their National Childbirth that has a real-life impact on people’s lives today. Trust groups if they were in one, or go to a family or As my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham West children’s centre. The support that we would wish for and Penge (Ellie Reeves) said, for many people, including new mothers was not there. myself, maternity stopped pretty much as covid started. I would like to confine myself to the proposal in this Seven weeks after our baby was born, my partner, who petition, which is the right to extend paid maternity is a teacher, was able to work from home, so I was able leave by a further three months to enable bonding and to start work, and the need was great, as many MPs saw social engaging with other parents and babies through a huge rise in casework and massive need. baby groups. I am not going to support the petition, Some of the people who took the time to write to and I shall set out why and what else I think should be their MPs were pregnant women who were terrified at done. The first reason is that I am not persuaded that the prospect of having to give birth alone or to have this is the purpose of maternity leave. To look at the scans and maternity appointments alone or in very statutory purpose we have to delve back into European strange environments. It is hard for people, particularly law. The pregnant workers directive was what kicked those who have had difficult pregnancies, miscarriages off the idea of maternity leave in 1992. Its essence was or problems with their health before. It is almost a the wellbeing of the mother. It was about mandating cliché to say that this crisis has laid bare many underlying member states to offer 14 weeks for the mother to make problems that have existed for far too long in this a physical recovery from childbirth. In 2009, the country. We know that, even before the pandemic, over European Union looked at it again, and came up with 3,000 health visitors had been cut in the past five years firm recommendations that member states should offer alone. It is clear that social distancing––not being able 18 weeks; in fact, it recommended 24. It said that to see each other face to face–– makes it really hard for longer leave would have a positive impact on a mother’s new mums to get the support they need. We know that health, and that its priority was to help women recover this impacts the child but it also impacts mothers, from giving birth and to create a solid relationship with especially. The expert work that health visitors do on their child. such limited resource helps narrow some of the inequalities Maternity leave, I say very respectfully, does not and that we have talked about. We know that seven in has never existed for wider developmental purposes, 10 new mums hide or underplay any struggles they are and we should be wary about asking for it to do so, facing. Can the Minister tell us what the Government’s particularly in this country, where women have a statutory 13WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 14WH Leave Leave right to 52 weeks’ ordinary plus additional maternity The second group of people that I ask the Minister to leave. I fully accept the extreme limitations that were look at, to see whether we are doing the right thing for imposed by the lockdown, but the reality was that that them, is the self-employed. There are a large number of would not have been the entirety of any woman’smaternity self-employed people here in the UK, but we know that leave. To the extent that childcare provision and other there are certain things that we have not done right. services are still limited, I am not persuaded that their Can it be right that just under half of self-employed offering would radically change if we were to change people have had to give up a place at nursery in order to the period by three months until Christmas, or even carry on making a living? Can it be right that we ask the into the new year. self-employed to take into account things that other My other point is that I am very worried about people, particularly those who are employed, do not mothers asking for a further three months’ maternity have to take into account? leave, knowing how vulnerable they are in the workplace. My final point is about those people who are employed. In my experience—I used to be an employment barrister— I know that the Minister or one of his associates has employers would find that an onerous requirement. raised the question of how companies deal with people While they may not make a woman redundant while she who are on maternity or paternity leave. However, as is on leave or even when she has recently returned, if she many speakers have suggested, it is still an area that is is caught in a redundancy exercise, say at the back end open to abuse. For example, we still see a large number of 2021, she will find it very difficult to establish causation of suspensions being done on incorrect terms. We also in an employment tribunal. I am concerned about that. still see a large number of people who are employed in As to what the Government should do—and the unsafe conditions. I wonder whether it is worth our conclusion I reached after 10 years of practice—I think getting together a group of leaders in this field to make the way to protect, enhance and progress women in the sure that the key messages that we want to get across are workplace is to embed flexible working practices. We really understood and communicated across companies, have seen through this crisis how productive and effective so that they do things in the right way. We are not people can be through doing their jobs at home. We asking for anything special, but we are asking that have seen men doing it for the first time in jobs they things be done in the right way. never would have thought they could do from home. We have recalibrated our view of flexible working, which 5.16 pm can also mean working reduced hours, flexi-working Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): It is a pleasure and job shares. My view is that the answer is not in to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy extending statutory leave, but in embedding statutory Speaker. flexibility in the workplace. In commencing my contribution to this debate, I pay wholehearted tribute to the hon. Member for Newcastle Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) and indeed to I should make it clear that there is no prohibition on other members of the Petitions Committee. It is rather interventions. We can have a robust debate; it is absolutely extraordinary that the Petitions Committee had an fine for that to happen. inquiry at all; it is not a common thing for it to do. However, I think that it reflects the strength of feeling 5.13 pm for this petition among its signatories—almost a quarter John Howell (Henley) (Con): Thank you, Madam of a million in total—and given the fact that Westminster Deputy Speaker. I hope that nobody will take that Hall was not accepting e-petition debates, it was an advice as a reason to have a go at me—but if they do, incredibly powerful thing to do. I am glad that the they do. Petitions Committee not only conducted the inquiry I am delighted to participate in this debate, and I but produced a very robust and encouraging report, thank the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North which was compelling to read, and made arguments (Catherine McKinnell) for initiating it. I want to raise that I have yet to hear substantive rebuttals of. So I just three points, and I do so in the spirit of asking the thank the hon. Lady for that. Minister to look again to make sure that we are doing I have no doubt that the Minister who is present here everything possible to ensure that everything works in Westminster Hall today enjoyed the evidence session—I extremely well. think it was rather robust—and I must say that I have The first point relates to childcare. I fully accept that found that he has personally engaged with this issue. childcare is desperately important to ensure that there is However,I have not found the Government to be anything the opportunity for people on maternity or paternity other than tone deaf to the genuine aspirations expressed leave to go back to work. I fully accept that, but I pick by mothers, to the concerns expressed by mothers and up the point made by the hon. Member for Lewisham the wider family circle, and to the imperative of supporting West and Penge (Ellie Reeves) and by my hon. Friend young mothers, young babies and their wider family at the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim a time when we have all had difficulties. I am afraid to Loughton): it is very important for the children themselves. say that the Government response was wholly insufficient. I, too, have come across children who were born during Aside from the contribution of the hon. Member for or just before the lockdown period, but who have been Newbury (Laura Farris), I think there is a general view immersed in lockdown, who find it really difficult to in the debate that more can be done; the hon. Lady was engage not just with other children, but with anyone not denying that, just the intended purpose of the outside their immediate family. That is such a sad thing petition. Given that we are potentially entering another to experience. I am not quite sure what the answer is, period of restrictions within wider society—of lockdowns except to build in flexibility and make sure that we have and circuit breakers— I ask that the Government accept the right sort of understanding people running nurseries. today at least that this issue has not gone away. The 15WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 16WH Leave Leave [Gavin Robinson] have significant long-lasting consequences for a newborn child. I speak as the chair of the all-party group for the pressures that have manifested themselves in huge levels prevention of adverse childhood experiences. It is crucial of public support for the e-petition and in the contributions that we understand what can affect a child’s health from that we have made in Parliament through the Committee’s the start and take a trauma-informed approach to building report and through the subsequent report in September back from the pandemic. Depression before, during and show that this debate is not over. after birth is a serious condition. It can go unrecognised The Government should accept that families—those and untreated for nearly half of new mothers who in which someone is currently pregnant and those in suffer from it. That was the case before the pandemic, which someone is in the early stages of maternity leave—are and my all-party group has recommended an extension still looking for the Government, who have heard that of the six-week mental health check for new mums. further work on support for the job support scheme and One problem is the narrative that motherhood is only other measures that that can be taken to support individuals wonderful, which leaves many women feeling unable to throughout society are needed, to acknowledge that talk to health professionals about their emotional state. mothers and families still remain in a difficult space. In my own pregnancies and births a long time ago now, Health visitors, no matter how hard those professionals I remember I did not dare to say that I felt rubbish, have tried to respond to the needs of those under their because it is often very difficult to cope. That was true care, are still not providing the best support that they before the pandemic and it was true many years ago. would wish to give. They are still relying on online Covid has created additional challenges. Some 68% of engagement and Zoom calls, when face-to-face contact new parents have said that their ability to cope with and getting to see mother,baby and the wider surroundings pregnancy or caring for their baby has been affected by within the family setting are so crucial, yet it is all still lockdown restrictions. Not only has informal support constrained. from friends and family been much more difficult—we I was pleased to ask the Prime Minister on 23 July have heard many examples in this debate already—but when the Government intended to respond to the Petitions formal services have been cut down, too. In the long Committee inquiry.The Prime Minister said he remembered term, we need to ensure that mental health checks for Bethany from Crewe very well and he indicated that he mothers take place across England and Wales. I also would consider the report and its contents. I do not support the call for the Government to fund and provide think anyone who surveyed the evidence in the additional targeted mental health support. They should Hansard transcripts of the Liaison Committee could certainly provide more funding to increase the number believe that there was appropriate consideration of the of health visitors. Again, I remember that the health 23 recommendations. That time has not passed; the visitor was a lifeline. Such contact is so important for opportunity still remains. In the name of the 638 members new mums. All that is necessary if we are to avoid a lost of my constituency who signed the petition and the generation because of the covid pandemic. hundreds of thousands of people throughout this country, I hope the Government will respond. 5.24 pm 5.20 pm Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is a Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): It is good to be back, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in such an Madam Deputy Speaker. I also want to congratulate important debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North 337 people from my constituency of York Central who (Catherine McKinnell) on securing this debate. signed the petition, which aims to make things right for The Government’s response to the petition so far has parents. been disappointing. Far too many new parents have felt I want to put on the record how important it is to completely unsupported through what should be a time support women through their pregnancies. Will the to bond with their newborn child. I urge Ministers to Minister raise with colleagues at the Department of reconsider their response and extend parental leave and Health and Social Care how essential it is that birthing pay for families during the pandemic. The Government partners and fathers are able to accompany the woman claim that the UK is among the most generous countries from pregnancy to birth—antenatal care, scans and in the world in terms of parental leave. In practice, that hospital appointments—and for any care required after is untrue. In fact, in UNICEF’s ranking of family-friendly birth? policies, the UK ranked only 34 out of 41 OECD I will touch on two key issues. First, I thank the Petitions countries. As highlighted in the Petitions Committee’s Committee for its report and its 23 recommendations, report, the unpaid section of parental leave is simply on which I want to reflect in the little time that I have. A unaffordable for many parents. As always, it is those constituent has written to me about neonatal care. She who are already more disadvantaged who lose out. is a mother who gave birth 11 weeks early during the The issue is not only about the generosity of parental pandemic. That is so difficult, not least when her baby leave in the UK. We should have that discussion because was moved to Middlesbrough, which is now in lockdown. it clearly deserves our attention, and we can do a lot She and her family need to be able to spend appropriate better, but today the Government need to consider the time to nurture and be with their baby. Bringing forward impact that the loss of access to vital services, including neonatal leave by two years would really assist her in health visitors, has had on families during covid. That that, and doing so now would help her even more. In the leads me to the subject of mental health. The first same way that the Government have moved at lightspeed 12 months are vital for a new baby. There is an enormous to bring in so many measures during the pandemic, I amount of physical and also emotional development. ask that they bring in this important measure to support Undiagnosed mental health problems in parents can families in their time of need—April 2023 is too late. 17WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 18WH Leave Leave As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on When the Prime Minister said that he would expect adoption and permanence, the second issue I want to employers to be reasonable in such circumstances look at is the current inequality between adoptive parents and that that would be sufficient, it betrayed his and birth parents. Will the Minister take another look lack of understanding about the reality of workplace at that inequality, not least in the Government’s response discrimination. to the Petitions Committee report? Weknow, for instance, People who have returned to work have experienced a that self-employed adoptive parents are not entitled to significant portion of their maternity leave during the an equivalent to the maternity allowance that self-employed national lockdown. The possibility of seeing extended mothers can access. They can ask the local authority for family and friends and attending covid-secure baby support, but they may not get it, and it is means-tested, groups has opened up, but there are no guarantees. As unlike for birth parents. The 2016 independent review we have already heard, it is very unlikely that those of self-employment in the UK highlighted that things will be able to continue in the way we would disadvantage, yet four years on, there has been no want. With localised lockdowns, inter-house mixing has redress. I ask the Government: why? been prohibited for many people, and we can see how Special guardians are currently not entitled to any that affects them on a day-to-day basis. A comment that form of parental leave or pay, yet they fulfil a crucial I received from a constituent has really stuck with me. parental role. That creates real inequality: research shows She said: that around half of kinship carers have to give up work “Some days are so difficult. I’ve barely slept, the house is a to care for their children. I thank my hon. Friend the mess and there is a huge pile of washing to be done. All I need is Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine my mum to come round and hold my son whilst I do this.” McKinnell), who last week published an excellent report Simple and helpful small interactions often make all the about the real hardship that kinship parents face. We difference. need to see real change. Labour would have introduced Baby groups and support from family and friends not a year of maternity pay and leave, following best practice, only benefit new parents; they are vital for the development and we need to get that right for all parents. of new babies, who look to interact and form new I urge the Minister to bring forward proposals to bonds. There will be babies who have had contact only ensure that there is no inequality between adopters and with their parents and not with other babies, and they special guardians, and birth parents. For many of those will take time to adapt to new childcare settings. Even parents, bonding with their child and addressing the the thought of that—never mind actually doing it—is issues of attachment are so important if their families quite a traumatic experience for parents and their babies. are to succeed and thrive in future. Despite their response, As we have discussed, we know the impact that the early I ask the Government to revisit those issues to ensure years can have on the rest of a child’s development. that we can create strong families in future. Women who have given birth during the pandemic, and those who are pregnant at present, continue to 5.28 pm contend with restrictions on attendance at scans and Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It medical appointments and on access to services. I have is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy heard from constituents who felt a void because they Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the impact could not see their health visitor in person, and who of covid-19 on maternity and paternity leave. As many have been left in pain and distress because they have hon. Members will know, and as we have heard today, been unable to receive support from breastfeeding services. being a new parent is an exciting, scary and, of course, Maternity leave should offer new parents the opportunity tiring experience—it is rather like being a new Member to recover from birth and time to adapt to the challenges in this place. Being new parents is a challenge at the best of a newborn. New parents face having to catch up on of times, when they have the support of extended missed appointments at the same time as returning to family, can attend baby groups and can leave their work, and that has many practical implications. The homes when they please, but having a newborn baby in discrimination facing women who are on maternity the middle of a lockdown means that all those challenges leave, or who are returning from it, is well documented. are multiplied. That is why Ministers need to recognise As we have heard today, those difficulties are exacerbated the unprecedented experience of those who have become in the worst of times. We know it is not business as parents during the pandemic. usual at the moment, so why should it be business as We have seen various offers and support schemes, but usual for maternity and paternity leave? We should have those on parental leave have had no such offers—it is some changes before it is too late. time that we did something about that. As we know, in the time that we have waited to debate the petition—I 5.32 pm am very pleased that Westminster Hall debates are back—many of the affected parents have had their Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): My thanks maternity or paternity leave pass them by, and they are go to the Petitions Committee and the hon. Member for now grappling with the challenges of childcare during a Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) for pandemic. Some of those who have contacted me have securing the debate. I thank Bethany and the maternity had very supportive employers, and that is welcome, but petitioners, Maternity Action, Pregnant Then Screwed it is not guaranteed. I have heard from other constituents and everybody who has been trying to help people at who have not been able to access childcare and who this incredibly difficult time. have to consider whether they can return to their jobs at This issue has had an impact on my family. My all. Others have had no choice but to take unpaid leave. sister-in-law Suzanne had baby Fraser during lockdown—I The Government have previously suggested furlough as understand that they may be watching the debate at an option for people who cannot secure childcare. home. Like all parents, they have been doing their Personally, I do not think that is the right answer at all. absolute best in the most difficult of circumstances, and 19WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 20WH Leave Leave [Alison Thewliss] their contributions, the petitioners for creating the petition in the first place and, in particular, the hon. Member for we are all so very proud of everything that they have Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) for done so far. However, it does not have to be this hard. If the work of her Committee in bringing this issue to the the Government took on some of the recommendations House today. We should not underestimate the impact made by the Petitions Committee in its report, it would that the issue has on so many people. It was really certainly make it a good deal easier for many parents encouraging to see so many sharing their experiences in and families right around the UK to look after their record numbers with the inquiry. wee ones. It would make things just that wee bit easier Few issues can be more important to society than at this very difficult time. how we look after the health and wellbeing of pregnant I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group women, new parents and newborn children, so it is on infant feeding and inequalities. Over the past five great to see this matter prioritised on the first day back years we have seen a worsening of an already precarious in Westminster Hall. It is a great pity that the UK situation, with underfunded services, a patchwork of Government’s response to the recommendations has so local support and volunteer groups doing their best—with far been more of a shrug of the shoulders than a very few resources—to support people when they are helping hand. I very much hope that the Minister is here breastfeeding. today with renewed vigour for taking action. Simply A report by Dr Natalie Shenker and Professor Amy saying that our system is among the best and most Brown, which came out in the past few days, deals with generous in the world will not really cut it for those who this issue. They surveyed over 1,200 mothers who breastfed are struggling financially. Maternity allowances here during the pandemic to see how they were affected by are far from generous. Indeed, UNICEF ranks the UK lockdown. Around 40% of the mothers said it had been among the least family-friendly of the world’s richest a positive experience, because they valued the privacy countries. It is a worrying thought that, unbound by and the time at home—perhaps having a supportive EU minimums, we may see that under threat. partner there, and perhaps getting a wee bit of extra The Government response to this report so far suggests time to do things. However, around 30% of the mothers that they either have not grasped or are not concerned surveyed felt that lockdown had been incredibly negative about the extent of the impact of covid-19 on the lives and incredibly difficult for them. They had felt isolated, and livelihoods of pregnant women and new parents. It abandoned and overwhelmed by the intensity of being should be an easy decision to extend maternity leave by alone with a baby for such a long time. three months, at the very least, to ensure that those who Although many of those mothers were able to breastfeed have unfairly lost income, lost leave rights and lost through that, many were not, and they struggled and access to health and dentistry services, to baby groups gave up before they wanted to. The survey found that of and to family and childcare support are not disadvantaged the participants who had stopped breastfeeding, only even further. 13.5% described themselves as ready to do so; they had It is safe to say that the Prime Minister is in the given up before they had wanted to. Others had introduced advantageous position of undoubtedly being able to formula when they had not intended to; the figure was enjoy the benefits of having a newborn baby around 68.7%, with many of those doing so earlier than they through this period. That certainly brings much joy in a had planned to. A staggering 70.3% attributed their period of difficulty. However, it would be difficult to decision to stop breastfeeding to the lack of face-to-face argue that he shares the experience of those who are support. Some of that has been because of the lockdown struggling with poverty, low wages, insecure work and and the restrictions, but the Government could have put loss of access to healthcare support, or those facing a lot more in place to make the situation easier. discriminatory attitudes from an employer. We have The National Breastfeeding Helpline has done incredible heard from other Members about those who have seen work, through its volunteers, to try to help and support their roles downgraded on their return. people, but with some problems, people really need In a survey of almost 20,000 mothers and pregnant someone standing next to them to help them when they women by the campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed, are feeding a baby. The Government need to do a lot 46% of those who were being made redundant blamed more to resolve the issues of underfunding and the the lack of childcare provision because of the covid-19 issues around health visitors, which have meant that pandemic. Thousands of real experiences are summarised people have felt very alone and scared when they have in this Committee report, which I hope will persuade been on their own with a baby for a long period. the Minister of the need for a more sympathetic response The situation has worsened existing inequalities within as we look to move forward. So far, the Government the system. Black, Asian and minority ethnic people, have been sluggish in responding to the recommendations people in poverty, people in small flats with no gardens in the report, waiting until September before even coming and people with less educational attainment all found it out to say no to most of them. We know that they can more difficult to pursue breastfeeding when they really rush to react when they want to. They did not, for wanted to. I ask the Minister to look at these issues very example, drag their heels in any shape or form when it carefully and see what more can be done to help and came to getting rid of procurement rules so that they support people, not only now but in the future. Funding could splash billions of pounds of public money giving must go into these services. questionable contracts to private companies of their choosing, regardless of evidence of ability to carry out 5.36 pm the job. Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): It is always a However, when it comes to the relatively small and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam inexpensive fixes that would ensure fairness for pregnant Deputy Speaker. I begin by thanking colleagues for women and new parents, the response is far slower. For 21WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 22WH Leave Leave example, making sure that guidance is clear for employers was before. The number of signatories to the petition and employees would stop people struggling unnecessarily speaks to the importance of parents’ and children’s and would save on the need for costly, time-consuming wellbeing at this time, and to a real frustration with the tribunals. On 16 March, the Government announced inadequacy of the current provisions and the Government’s that pregnant women at work were especially vulnerable, failure to provide sufficient additional support in the but they did nothing to make clear the legal obligations light of the pandemic. under existing health and safety rules—that, if alternative The Petitions Committee’s report explains why the safe work or working from home could not be secured Government’s claim to provide among the most generous for those women, they should be suspended on full pay. maternity support in the world is quite simply untrue, Instead, many were wrongly forced on to sick pay or and why it is challenged by UNICEF, as has been unpaid leave, or were forced to use up their holiday mentioned. The report calls on the Government to entitlement or start their maternity leave early, affecting capture data on the uptake of parental leave, as well as entitlement to statutory maternity pay for many and pay,so that anyfuture review of parental leave arrangements reducing their maternity leave when they needed it most. can consider the extent to which parents from all groups The Government could have prevented that, but they are able to use their entitlements, and whether to extend chose to leave those things in a murky mess, allowing leave or provide hardship grants in the light of that pregnant women’s rights to be ignored with impunity. evidence.The Minister should take on board that important When I asked how many employers the Health and call. The UK has seen rapid growth in self-employment Safety Executive had investigated and taken enforcement in recent decades, so it is of great concern that significant action against since March for breaching obligations to disparities exist between employed and self-employed pregnant women, the answer, unsurprisingly, was none. women. Self-employed women already face additional The pandemic has been a wake-up call for so many. challenges and reduced incomes after having children. The Government have had the opportunity to respond If both parents are self-employed, only the mother can to the detailed inquiry undertaken by the Petitions claim an allowance and there is no paternity or shared Committee. On 8 April, the Chancellor said: leave for fathers, which means that caring responsibilities “When you need it, when you fall on hard times, we will…be fall to the mother. The entitlements available to self- there for you.” employed women compound rather than address that I urge the Government, even at this late stage, to prove inequality. Unlike statutory maternity pay, maternity through actions, not words, that they are there for new allowance is treated as unearned income and deducted parents. from universal credit, sometimes leaving women up to £5,000 worse off. Can the Minister give any justification 5.41 pm for that unfair discrepancy? I call on him to set out how the Government will address it. Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): It is a delight to respond to the debate on behalf of the Opposition, That is just one of the many inequalities in entitlement and to see you back in the Chair in Westminster Hall, brought about by an inconsistent welfare system, combined Madam Deputy Speaker. As others have done, I start with an increase in precarious work. The Government by thanking Jessie Zammit and her husband James for have pursued an agenda of creating a deregulated gig starting this e-petition, and the 226,000 people who economy, rolling back workers’ rights and fostering signed it. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the insecurity in work, which has left us in the worst possible Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine position as we now face the devastation wreaked on the McKinnell) who, as others pointed out, took this issue economy by coronavirus. forward and delivered a really important report. Beyond Following the announcement by the Prime Minister today, I hope the Government will take far more seriously and the chief medical officer in March that pregnant the issues in the report and give us a much better women are clinically vulnerable, employers that were indication of additional support for parents and families, unable to make the necessary adjustments to ensure as we head into what will, no doubt, be an even harder workplace safety were required to send them home on winter with coronavirus. full pay, but many pregnant women were unlawfully put I briefly thank all Members, particularly those from on statutory sick pay, which affected their maternity the Opposition, for their contributions. Weheard excellent pay and other entitlements. Labour has previously called contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for on the Government to discount covid-related spells on Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves), for Newcastle SSP for the period when earnings are used to calculate upon Tyne North, for Luton North (Sarah Owen), for statutory maternity pay to ensure that pregnant women York Central (Rachael Maskell) and for Ellesmere Port do not have their maternity pay cut as a result of being and Neston (Justin Madders). on SSP. It is unacceptable that the Government have Even before the pandemic struck, the system of refused to do that, and I ask the Minister to reconsider. support did not work as it should. There are too In fact, the Minister said that the women affected many inconsistencies in the support provided to employed should simply bring an employment tribunal claim against and self-employed parents—or biological and adoptive their employer, despite knowing that that is not a realistic parents, as we heard—causing some to miss out on vital option, given the small window of opportunity for support that is incredibly important at that time in their doing so and the huge and growing backlog in employment lives. The existing flaws have been exacerbated by covid-19, tribunal cases. Citizens Advice says that its advisers are leaving many families in hardship and struggling. The seeing worrying cases of pregnant women who feel that Government’s response to the petition and subsequent they have been selected for redundancy because they report acknowledges that we are living through need more stringent health and safety measures, and unprecedented times, but it does little more than express demand for the organisation’s discrimination advice satisfaction with maternity and paternity support as it page has increased fourfold. 23WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 24WH Leave Leave [Dan Carden] is with family, friends and other new parents. It has been quite a while since my children were in their first I echo the report’srecommendation that the Government months and years—they are now in their 20s—but I do should consider extending to six months the period in vaguely remember those days a couple of decades ago, which pregnant women and new parents can bring and just how important such contact is. It provides claims before the employment tribunal. Last week, the invaluable support at times of significant change, and I Ministry of Justice published new figures blaming the sympathise with new mothers and parents who have 31% rise in outstanding employment tribunal cases on been unable to spend their parental leave in the way an increase in unemployment because of covid-19. It they envisaged prior to the pandemic and lockdown. also warned the Government that the decision to end I recognise that new parents want to give their children the job retention scheme and replace it with a job the best possible start in life; it is what we all want, and I support scheme will lead to a further spike at the end wholeheartedly agree that activities that support babies’ of October. development in those early months and years are so, so Given that one in four people are already living under important. We are all social creatures, including from a regional lockdowns, and that a second national lockdown very young age, and social contact is important at all is a very real possibility, the issues highlighted by the stages. Obviously, since that initial period of lockdown, petition, the report and this debate will not go away. It is we have tried our best to relax the social distancing not acceptable for the Government simply to restate rules that were previously in place. There have been that the support available is generous and sufficient. stricter measures, yes, in some local areas as required, The evidence submitted to the Petitions Committee but as a result of those relaxations, including the inquiry shows that that is not the case. Substantive introduction of support bubbles, more new parents are ministerial action is needed and I call on the Minister to now able to spend time with family, friends and other set out what steps the Government intend to take, new parents, while still respecting the social distancing considering the problems facing pregnant women and rules. new parents that hon. Members have detailed today. It The online petition that prompted the Petitions is simply unfair that too many have lost their leave Committee’s inquiry and this debate asked for paid during this period of lockdown, so the Government maternity leave to be extended by three months in the should look to what action can be taken. The issues light of covid-19. As hon. Members have heard, the raised here will not simply be dealt with in this debate; Government have not accepted the proposal. Maternity they require action from the Government. leave is provided to enable employed pregnant women and new mothers to prepare for and recover from birth, 5.49 pm and to bond with their child, including through The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, breastfeeding if the mother wishes to breastfeed. Up to Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): It is a 52 weeks of maternity leave are available, 39 weeks of pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam which are paid, and all employed women must take at Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the hon. Member for least two weeks’ maternity leave immediately after giving Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) birth, or four weeks if they work in a factory. and the Petitions Committee on bringing forward this Fathers and partners can take up to two weeks of debate, and I congratulate the hon. Lady on the way she paid paternity leave. They can also access up to an has conducted it and reflected the campaign of the additional 50 weeks of leave, and up to an additional many petitioners. As she knows, I sat on the Petitions 37 weeks of pay where the mother does not intend to Committee for a number of years, so I know from use her full maternity entitlement. Employed parents personal experience how important and valuable it is. also have access to up to four weeks’ unpaid parental I am sure we can agree that this has been an interesting leave, and that is per parent, per child, so a couple that and informative debate. I am grateful to everybody who wishes to take additional time off work with their baby has contributed. My right hon. Friend the Member for have access to an additional eight weeks of leave per Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) and my hon. Friend the Member year, and more if they have other children. I know that for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) both this leave is not paid, but it is also the case that all have previous experience that showed up in their comments. employees have access to 5.6 weeks of paid holiday in a My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) year. The entitlement to annual leave continues to accrue always speaks with common sense, and the rational and while a parent is off work on parental leave. reasonable thinking with which he cut through these We have talked a lot in this debate about the data and issues was very welcome. Although my hon. Friend the international comparisons. It is important to look at the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) has not been in fact that our maternity leave, rather than the parental this place for long, I think she has a great future ahead leave that some people suggested, which is a day one of her. The professional approach and experience that right, is one of the most generous in the OECD. When she brought to bear made hers a particularly insightful looking at the time, as compared to the money per week and welcome contribution. and per month, there are other countries that have a The online petition asked the Government to extend shorter period. Although more money may be paid, maternity pay because of concerns about the lack of often that is combined with social insurance and is opportunities for parents, and mothers in particular, therefore dependent on the contributions that the employers throughout the lockdown. Petitioners pointed out the and employees have already paid. activities, such as baby groups, which could not occur during the lockdown, and how vital they are for children’s Wera Hobhouse: It is the unpaid part that is not development. We have heard a lot about that in this generous and that is still unaffordable. Will the Minister debate. As a father, I know how important social contact please respond to that point? 25WH Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 5 OCTOBER 2020 Covid-19: Maternity and Parental 26WH Leave Leave Paul Scully: As I say, it is the overall aspect of the leave in the way that they envisaged prior to the pandemic. right balance, in terms of maternity leave, between the The recent relaxations have been possible only because time and the money that we believe is both generous we took the difficult decision to introduce stringent and fair—getting that right balance as a day one right. social distancing measures, including lockdown. In fact, The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North as we are now learning, we still need to be vigilant at talked about what we are doing to look forward with maintaining social distancing, to protect lives. care in the early years. The Prime Minister has asked my In conclusion, may I thank the petitioners? We will right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire continue to work on those first early years, to ensure (Andrea Leadsom) to carry out a review on how to that parents and children can get the support that they improve health outcomes for babies and children from want. disadvantaged backgrounds. That review will focus on 5.58 pm the first 1,001 days of a baby’s life, from birth to age two and a half. [Interruption.] From a sedentary position, Catherine McKinnell: I appreciate the Minister’sresponse, the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North says but I think that the petitioners will be incredibly that she is on that committee, which is fantastic. I am disappointed in it. He talks about the relaxation of looking forward to seeing what comes of that and what lockdown, but he is talking to somebody to whom the recommendations come forward. additional local restrictions apply. Most of what he said does not apply to new mums in my area and in many On social groups for babies and children, I know how parts of the country, who are increasingly affected. important baby and toddler groups are to new parents and babies, and how distressing it has been for parents I want to highlight a couple of issues that were raised to suffer through lockdown. My hon. Friend the Member in the debate. I loved how the right hon. Member for for East Worthing and Shoreham talked about GPs and Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) challenged our report for not what they can and cannot do in terms of health visits. going far enough and not demanding enough of the There is a contractual requirement from 1 April 2020 Government. I very much agree with her campaign, but for GPs to offer maternal post-natal consultation at six it highlights how we tried to be reasonable in the report to eight weeks after birth—live and stillbirth—as an and ensure cross-party support and deliverable asks of additional appointment to the baby check in the first six the Government, which makes it more disappointing to eight weeks. The Government gave an additional that most of them have been ignored. £12 million, invested through the GP contract, to support The hon. Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) made all practices to deliver that. an impressive speech, but it seemed to ignore the reality On mental health, clearly this is a concerning time for for many working mothers, which is that they do not mothers. It is important, as we talk about giving mental have the agency to negotiate flexibility. They are deeply health parity with physical health, that we are committed anxious throughout their maternity period, during this to supporting everyone’s mental wellbeing, especially lockdown, about the future of their employment situation. during this unprecedented period. New parents can I want to make one final plea. I did not mention it continue to access mental health services, including earlier, because it is not in our report, but I very much virtually, and the Department of Health and Social support the cause of all new mothers having the flexibility Care has released more tailored guidance to help people to take birth partners with them into hospital. I want to deal with the outbreak. the Prime Minister to respond, as he promised to at the Liaison Committee, more fully to our report, and to Rachael Maskell: Will the Minister give way? make the changes necessary to ensure that every mother can have the confidence of having a birth partner with Paul Scully: I will not, because I have literally only a her in hospital. minute left and I want the hon. Member for Newcastle Question put and agreed to. upon Tyne North to be able to respond. Resolved, There is no way I can talk about all hon. Members’ That this House has considered e-petition 306691 relating to comments in the minute that I have left, but as I said in the impact of Covid-19 on maternity and parental leave. my response to the core of the petition, the Government Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Thank believe that the entitlement to 52 weeks of maternity you all very much for responding so well to the new way leave and 39 weeks of statutory maternity pay or maternity in which we are doing things in Westminster Hall. I allowance is already very generous. I should perhaps shall just delay for a moment so that those who took add that those entitlements are provided to enable pregnant part in the first debate can leave by the one-way system, women and new mothers to prepare for and recover continuing to stay 2 metres apart. Everyone is doing from birth and bond with their child. beautifully. As they do that, I hope that those taking We need to make sure that as we relax lockdown, part in the next debate will be coming in. I am taking there are new opportunities for new parents to spend things slowly to make sure that happens. I am pleased to their maternity, paternity, adoption and shared parental see the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mike Hill). 27WH 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 28WH

Leaving the EU 2020. Many would argue that 11 months is already a tight timeline for a complex deal to be negotiated, ratified and implemented, and that does not take account [SIR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] of the covid-19 crisis, which has soaked up much of the UK and EU Governments’ energies. That has led to a 6.2 pm number of calls for the transition period to be extended, Sir David Amess (in the Chair): Order. As you have including the petitioners in e-petition 300412. The petition just heard Madam Deputy Speaker explain, we have of calls for a pandemic delay, which is perhaps the most course only just resumed sittings in Westminster Hall. It compelling reason at the moment. will take a little while to get used to the procedures, but I am sure we will all get the hang of it if people observe The Government have much to reassure the public social distancing. If Members think of it, wiping the about before leaving the EU in the middle of the current microphones down on leaving will save the Doorkeepers pandemic, and this petition argues that it is simply some work. common sense, in the light of covid-19, to seek an extension, so that important matters can be given the Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab): I beg to move, proper attention they deserve. These matters include That this House has considered e-petitions 241848, 250178 and healthcare workers’status and rights; imports of medicine, 300412 relating to the UK’s departure from the EU. new testing kits and personal protective equipment; the It is an honour to speak under your chairmanship, import and export of goods and food; and travel Sir David, and a privilege to open this important debate arrangements across borders. I am sure hon. Members on the day when Westminster Hall debates resume. The will raise these points in the debate and I look forward petitions are on the subject of Brexit, and the first calls to the Minister’s response. It is common knowledge that for a halt to it while a public inquiry is held. It has more the negotiations were delayed earlier in the year by the than 110,000 signatures and states: pandemic and I would welcome a more in-depth response “The UK’s departure from the EU looms but questions remain from the Government as to how they believe that has about the legitimacy of the Referendum. The Electoral Commission affected the UK’s readiness for Brexit. said illegal overspending occurred during the Referendum. Were the vote/any subsequent political acts affected? Article 50 was There are important lessons to be learned from triggered. Was the overspend known about then? A transparent campaigns in the run-up to and during the 2016 referendum. Public Inquiry is required, now.” E-petition 250178, on foreign interference, points to the E-petition 250178 has more than 109,000 signatures serious questions raised by the Russia report, commissioned and also seeks to establish a public inquiry into the by the House of Commons Intelligence and Security conduct of the 2016 EU referendum. It also addresses Committee. This includes the potential influence of the subject of alleged interference by “foreign actors some senior figures within the leave campaign. I would and governments”, saying: personally welcome a further independent inquiry into “This must be investigated under the Inquiries Act (2005).” that, as called for by the petition, as the Government’s The third petition, e-petition 300412, has more 107,000 response to the Committee’s report has been lacklustre, signatures and states: at best, so far. “The government should consider delaying negotiations so I am sure all right hon. and hon. Members will agree they can concentrate on the coronavirus situation and reduce that faith in public institutions is at rock bottom at the travel of both EU and UK negotiators. This would necessitate moment. It is of the utmost importance that, as a extending the transition period; as there can only be a one off matter of public service, we ensure that some mistakes extension, this should be for two years.” can never be made again. If there was foreign interference, These petitions mean different things to different it is vital that we establish to what extent, and what people. Some see a halt to the transition period as measures can be put in place to avoid such an event ever necessary for the safety of the public, while others see it occurring again. We could make a start by banning the as a further attempt to delay Brexit by those who hiring out of the Prime Minister for a game of tennis, oppose it. From my own personal experience, the vast for example. However, the timing of an inquiry need majority of my constituents would fall into the latter not necessarily derail the Brexit process. category, as almost three quarters of them voted to leave in the 2016 referendum. They would not want a I cannot vouch for other constituencies—I have no further delay, after four and a half years of delays and doubt that Members will be keen to enlighten me—but false starts, unless it were completely unavoidable. I wonder how many people in my constituency, where, a As far as the majority of my constituents are concerned, year prior to the referendum, a UKIP candidate beat the United Kingdom’s 47-year-old membership of the the Tory candidate into second place in a general election, European Union ended on 31 January 2020. However, were convinced by foreign propaganda in the referendum it is not as simple as that. We are currently in the campaign to vote leave. Frankly, it would not have transition period, which ends on 31 December, and, changed anything in my constituency. contrary to points made during the 2019 election campaign Vote Leave, the official pro-Brexit campaign group, about oven-ready deals, things are far from oven-ready was judged by the High Court to have broken campaign and simple, particularly on the trade deal front. As we spending limits during the referendum and therefore to have seen over the past two weeks with the United have broken the law. This followed on from an earlier Kingdom Internal Market Bill, which has already prompted decision by the Electoral Commission and is central to legal action from the EU, the prospects of a no-deal e-petition 241848 in its call for an inquiry into campaign Brexit are very real. spend. Campaign spending has a great impact on elections The Government’s final opportunity to request an and voting, as all MPs will fully understand. If overspending extension to the transition period, provided for under occurs, as was the case with Vote Leave, or it is suspected, the withdrawal agreement, came and went on 30 June the Electoral Commission should investigate it as a matter 29WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 30WH of course. This follows an initial decision by the Electoral conclusion or any certainty—we have had enough Commission to investigate Vote Leave, but not Darren uncertainty.The British people—certainly my constituents Grimes of BeLeave, a campaign organisation in receipt in Stoke-on-Trent South—would not accept a further of substantial donations from Vote Leave as part of a extension. We should certainly not trust the view that joint plan, according to the High Court. an extension is required because of covid. We all know We must establish the facts and ensure that all political the real reasons why people want the transition extended bodies in the United Kingdom act with the integrity further. that the law demands. With Vote Leave already having Labour and other parties opposite continue to repeat paid a fine of £61,000, it would be in the public interest the mistakes of the past. Even now, they question what to know how it affected the result of the campaign in people thought they were voting for and the legitimacy some areas. However, again, using that as a pretext to of the process in its entirety. How much have their views halt the Brexit process would be seen by many as a changed since the promise to honour the result, whatever tactic to deliberately delay. There is little certainty in the outcome might be? It goes to the heart of British much Government policy, but one thing appears to be democracy that we honour and trust the decisions of unshakable: the Prime Minister is sticking to Brexit the British people who elected us to represent them in come what may. this place. In conclusion, all three petitions have merits that I know that my constituents in Stoke-on-Trent South warrant discussion, and all three highlight important do not feel that they have benefited from their membership issues that require greater transparency and clarity. The of the EU. They feel that although other areas have Government must make much more of an effort to moved forward, they have been left behind. What was restore faith in themselves both among the public and the only year in which the UK was a net gainer from our in Parliament. Delaying Brexit again is likely to further contribution to the EU budget? Surprise, surprise, it widen the divisions in our society and our communities. was 1975—the year of the common market referendum. However, to do so without a cast-iron guarantee on That is slightly more than a coincidence. My constituents imports during the pandemic and without knowing knew exactly what they were voting for when they beyond doubt the legality of the actors in the winning overwhelmingly backed leave: an end to being controlled campaign, especially in the teeth of the current pandemic, by the EU; an end to sending to the EU every year vast might also harm society. I urge all Members to consider amounts of money that we never get back; and an end those points carefully. to free movement for proper control of our borders. That is exactly what this Government are now delivering. Several hon. Members rose— The Government’s focus on levelling up will ensure that all communities, in every part of our country, can Sir David Amess (in the Chair): I would like to start prosper and succeed. the wind-ups at 7 o’clock. Six people want to speak, so I As I have made clear, I hope that we secure an hope colleagues will share the time between them. ambitious free-trade deal with the EU at the end of the year, but whatever the outcome—deal or no deal—it 6.13 pm must provide a clear end state and certainty, allowing Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): It is an our country to move forward once and for all. Unlike absolute delight, Sir David, to be back here speaking in many Opposition Members, I very much have confidence Westminster Hall after quite a long adjournment in this that our country, our economy and our Government Chamber. I thank the hon. Member for Hartlepool will get through this and flourish in the future. (Mike Hill) for leading this debate, although I find it ironic, given his past challenges in explaining the Labour 6.17 pm party’s policy on Brexit. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It The 2016 referendum was the largest expression of is delightful to see you in the Chair, Sir David, and to be democracy in our British history, and the largest mandate back in Westminster Hall. I agree with most of the of any Parliament in terms of the 17.4 million people comments made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent who voted to leave. The petitioners represent less than South (Jack Brereton). First, I would like to declare 1% of that figure. A Government with a large majority three unremunerated interests: I am a board member has been elected on a mandate to get Brexit done. We for the Centre for Brexit Policy; I am on the advisory have now left the EU, thankfully, and, at the end of the board for the Foundation for Independence; and I was, transition period in January,Brexit will be fully completed. until just after the referendum, a board member of Vote Yet we still see Opposition Members trying once again Leave. to hamper Brexit, as they have done in debate after I ask hon. Members inside and outside this Hall a debate, calling for delay after delay—delays for which I simple question. We have seen a two-pronged attack on have never voted, and which the British people do not democracy since the decision in 2016, which, as the hon. accept. I do not think that anyone would ever have Member for Stoke-on-Trent South said, was the single imagined that it would take nearly five years to complete largest vote in our history. Most people in this country the process—that is quite long enough, according to my would be absolutely horrified if President Trump challenged constituents. a victory by the Democrats in the United States and it The public have been clear in their feelings about a went to the courts, but that is exactly what has happened Parliament that did not fulfil the democratic wishes of in this country. Many of my hon. Friends who care the British people. We have seen enough of the delay passionately about this and wanted to stay in the EU and uncertainty that the last Parliament brought to our simply do not see it in those terms. That two-pronged economy and our country. The transition must not be attack on democracy has come from hon. Members, extended, because by doing so, we will never bring about both from my party and from others, who want to 31WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 32WH

[Graham Stringer] the campaign. Regarding Vote Leave, the Electoral Commission gave Vote Leave bad advice, and it ended overturn the decision, and from the EU itself, which is up in breach of the rules, and it has paid a fine for that. less surprising, because it is a non-democratic body that I do not believe any of that affected the outcome. The has used many tactics to make it painful for this country single biggest factor in cash terms was that the Government to leave, as a warning to other countries that might paid £9 million effectively to put out a remain leaflet, want to leave. So, I will start with that point. which dwarfed all the rest of the expenditure. I will also say that we have left the EU, as my hon. I will finish by swiftly dealing with the petitions. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mike Hill) has said, There is the petition that cites covid as a reason for but we are still in the transition period and subject to delaying the implementation. I understand at least one the withdrawal agreement. I hope that we get a Canada-plus motivation behind that. The fact is that if we can style of free trade agreement, which was on offer at the control our own laws and regulations, we are in a better beginning of this process, and it is another element of position to respond to any crisis immediately and not to bad faith from the EU that that has been taken off the be bound by the European Union’s bureaucracy. I will table, as has giving this country third-country status, give an example: it took about 18 years for the EU to which is real bad faith. change the clinical trials directive, and lot of jobs went out of Europe because it was so slow. In order to build I hope that we can get that type of arrangement, but our economy after covid and to deal with it now, we it is vital that the final leaving agreement is sovereign- need to be completely in charge of our rules and regulations. compliant. We need control over our fishing and over how we subsidise our industry, if that is what we choose Jack Brereton: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that to do. This country subsidises industry,providing so-called the challenge of getting an EU covid recovery package “state aid”, at about half the rate of the rest of the EU, together is an example of that? so it is not a big problem. However, it is vital that we have control of our own Graham Stringer: I do agree. I will not get into a laws. That is why people voted to leave the EU, so we debate about covid, but we need to be spritelier than we need the final leaving agreement to be sovereign-compliant. have been in response to this crisis, and being in charge And we must not have overhanging liabilities that are of ourselves is the best way to do it. I have previously unaccounted for, to be determined by some future said that both sides have been found to have been in decisions that the EU might make to give us more breach of the regulations. financial commitments. Finally, regarding the conditions My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool mentioned for leaving, we must not be subject to the European foreign interference. Did the biggest interference in Court of Justice. Otherwise, we will not be a truly terms of publicity—when President Obama came over independent country. and asked people to vote remain—make any difference? I suspect in many cases that boosted the leave side of I have supported the decision to leave the EU in many the debate. votes in the House of Commons. I did not support the final withdrawal agreement, because I never believed This country has decided to leave the EU, and we that there should be the possibility of Great Britain have to get the best deal possible. We have to ensure that being separated from Northern Ireland. The EU has we get it to be sovereign-compliant, and not let the EU exploited that situation and weaponised the historical carry on with what are effectively imperialistic policies. situation in Ireland to try and keep control over our It wants to carry on controlling our laws and regulations. laws, so I hope the Government can get an agreement It wants to keep us paying, without our having any say that does not lead to the splitting-up of the United whatever in the creation of those laws and regulations. Kingdom in those terms. 6.27 pm In introducing the three petitions, my hon. Friend Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con): My first ever referred to the legal action that is being taken. It is the Westminster Hall debate is on the subject that got us most curious legal action. I am not a lawyer, but who here in the first place. As the first ever Conservative MP has ever taken legal action against a Bill passing through to represent Don Valley, an area which voted 69% in this House that is yet to become law? It is extraordinary. favour of leaving the European Union, I felt compelled Indeed, it is not only extraordinary in that sense; it is to speak in the debate because two of the petitions that extraordinary in that it goes against the EU policy itself. we are debating, which are now over a year old, demand In the Kadi I and Kadi II decisions—a complicated a public inquiry into the 2016 referendum. The vast case adjudicated on by the European Court of Justice—the majority of my constituents and I believe that the Court came to the conclusion that motives behind the petitions are not entirely sincere. “the obligations imposed by an international agreement cannot Instead, I believe that the petitions were established and have the effect of prejudicing the constitutional principles of the signed because people—petition data show that they EC Treaty”. reside mainly in the southern metropolitan areas of the So the legal action is not only absurd in its first terms; it country—could not accept the referendum result. We also goes against the way that the EU deals with its own really need to move on. policy. Since the 2016 referendum, some members of the I think it was mentioned that several court cases political elite have treated 17.4 million people with found that actions taken by parties on both sides have complete contempt. Large sections of the media and been in breach of the law. That is wrong; it should not political class actively tried to rob those people of their happen. There is no general election or local election voice. Some politicians and journalists stated repeatedly that I have ever been involved in where there have not that the desire of the majority to leave the EU was been problems; that is just what happens in the heat of impossible. By the beginning of the last general election, 33WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 34WH some said that the referendum should not have taken of our community. Every week, we held street stalls and place in the first place, and one major party even commuter calls, handing out leaflets and discussing promised to cancel Brexit altogether. Meanwhile, petitions Brexit and what it would mean for our city and our such as the ones we are debating were used to grind country.We did our research, and we respectfully listened Brexit to a halt. Through inquiries, people who remained to people, some of whom had opinions very different upset at the referendum result sought to overturn the from our own. We spoke to them in a positive spirit. We largest democratic exercise in this country’s recent history. became a fixture in Bath, and our constructive dialogue That was despite the fact that, after the referendum, helped to lift the public discourse. Parliament overwhelmingly voted to proceed with the Among the most damaging legacies of Brexit have Brexit negotiations. Some 80% of the votes cast in the been the deepening division in our society and an 2017 general election were for parties that supported aggressive culture war that seeks to pit people against our departure from the EU. each other. Bath for Europe stands for equality and Hindsight can be a wonderful thing. I believe that the fairness. For example, this spring, the group held a last election, when many of my hon. Friends and I were virtual EU citizens fair to support those applying for elected across the country, is confirmation that petitions settled status. Bath for Europe remains a force in our such as the ones we are debating do not have the city. The people of Bath will continue to uphold the popular support of the people. The 2019 election decisively values of openness, inclusion and international confirmed that the public did not want to stall Brexit, co-operation, and I will use my voice to represent their and indeed that they did not want endless inquiries into views in Parliament. allegations that had no substance; they wanted to get It is important to stress that we should not fight lost on with Brexit and deliver the referendum result. However, battles. No EU membership is now a reality. That does we now see renewed calls to halt Brexit, this time due to not mean that there are not many millions of people in coronavirus, yet again because a small minority continue the UK who believe that our place is at the heart of the to cling to the hope that they can prevent the will of the European Union. Their voices need to be heard too, people. and I am one of them. Passionate supporters of a I, for one, find it awful that my constituents’ views yet football club do not immediately switch sides to the again appear to have been discarded, but I make it clear club who won the premier league. They stay loyal to to the good people of Don Valley and across the north their side through the years, even through relegation, that their voices will be heard, and that the Government and prepare for better times. will get on with Brexit. The Government have already confirmed that they are fully prepared to leave the EU Graham Stringer: Does the hon. Lady agree that it is with an Australian-style deal at the end of this year. a fundamental of democracy that the losing side accepts With coronavirus likely to be with us for many more the overall result and the winners? That is how democracy months or even years to come, why wait? After all, we works. One does not have to change one’s view, but one gave the public the choice in a referendum and two has to recognise the result. general elections. I think they have made themselves quite clear, so let us get on with what I and many others Wera Hobhouse: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that were elected to do less than a year ago—let us get Brexit intervention. I absolutely understand that democracy done. needs to play itself out, and I do not want to reheat the battles that we had for two and a half years in this 6.30 pm Parliament. Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): I have many reasons to However, we have argued again and again that the be proud of my constituency of Bath. One of the most decision made in 2016 was unclear. We need to make it important to me is its long tradition as an open-minded, clear and discuss to the end whether what people understood welcoming and outward-looking city. Bathonians want they voted for in 2016 is really what they wanted. The this country to reflect those values, which we hold close result is now there, I accept that; we had a very clear to our hearts. Bath was one of the constituencies with election result, and we are now no longer members of the most signatories to the petition to halt Brexit for a the European Union. That is why I say that it is no use public inquiry. In 2016, 68% of Bath residents voted to to now fight lost battles. But we have a passion to be at remain, putting us in the top 50 remain-voting constituencies the heart of the European Union, and almost half of in the UK. the people of the UK still believed that going into the Just days after the referendum, a handful of us residents 2019 election. They have not suddenly gone away. The founded what became one of the most active grassroots winning side has to accept that too, therefore the debates campaigning organisations in the country, Bath for that we continue to have here are not undemocratic. Europe. We came together as a non-party political They are part of democracy. People have their voices group of volunteers campaigning for the UK to remain heard. at the heart of the European Union. I was a founder EU membership at some point in the future continues member of Bath for Europe before I was elected the MP to be a Liberal Democrat ambition. I firmly believe that for Bath. Wewere ordinary people achieving extraordinary our time will come, but in the meantime I will stand up things. We donated our spare time, talent, creativity, for all EU citizens here in the UK and for UK citizens knowledge, experience, ideas and resources to keep the in Europe, and make sure that they can live with all cause of Europe front and centre, both locally and their rights undiminished. That is what I now fight for: nationally. to keep the flame alive that our place as the United In addition to organising rallies, marches, speakers, Kingdom is at the heart of the European Union. I will events and regular meetings, perhaps our biggest not give up on that belief, and I do believe that our time achievement was our constant engagement with members will come. 35WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 36WH

6.35 pm 6.40 pm John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is a great pleasure to Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I wanted to take be here. In fact, it is such a pleasure that this is the part in this debate not because I am trying to stop second debate in a row that I have stayed for. I was democracy in its tracks or because, as a brand-new down to speak in the first debate and when Mr Speaker’s Member of Parliament, I have not had the two or three Trainbearer said, “Do you want to speak in the second years of debating Brexit and am desperate to have my one?”I thought, “Yes, I might as well get my Westminster fair share, but because my consistency of Twickenham Hall score back up.” In the original referendum—gosh, appeared in the top 10 constituencies for all three of that was so many years ago—I was somebody who these petitions. I know from the result of the referendum, voted remain. When I looked at these petitions—the in which 67% of my residents voted to remain, and the ones to halt Brexit for a public inquiry, extend the humbling and overwhelming result in my favour in the transition, and look at foreign interference—my first general election, which was largely fought on Brexit, reaction was one of utter exasperation. To see that when the good people of Twickenham, Teddington, covid was mentioned as the excuse for doing these just Whitton, St Margarets and the Hamptons put their defied belief. faith in me, that the majority of my residents are pro-European and they want me to give them a voice. There is an organisation in Europe that is far more That is what I am here to do. liberal, in the best sense of the word, and far more open It is fair to say that, like me, many are heartbroken to ideas coming in. That is the Council of Europe. It is that we have left the European Union. They genuinely also almost twice the size of the EU. Has covid stopped felt that for economic as well as social and emotional its work? Does covid mean that nobody does any reasons that the UK should remain in the European monitoring of the appalling human rights situations Union. Many of my constituents are, like me, outward- that exist in certain countries? I am the rapporteur for looking and internationalist in perspective, and have Turkey in the Council of Europe, and we are holding—it enjoyed the freedoms of being able to live and work in is difficult—inquiries on Zoom with non-governmental the European Union and fall in love without borders, organisations in Turkey to make sure that we understand and simply wished the same opportunities for their children. what the Turkish Government are up to, and to say no to them. So the idea that covid is responsible for this is Of course I accept, with a heavy heart, that we have for the birds. It does not hold any water at all. It is a bit now left the European Union—I do not deny that the of a cheek, actually, to put all three motions together, electorate spoke very clearly in December—but I still particularly given the legal bar on extending the transition. fundamentally believe that no deal that could be negotiated Why on earth we should halt Brexit, I have no idea. I could be as beneficial as continued membership of the agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley European Union. I am deeply worried about the long-lasting (Nick Fletcher) that it is time to move on, and that is damage that Brexit will cause to this country’s economy exactly what I want to do. I do not want to sit in this and standing in the world. place for another three or four years debating Brexit. I The petitions refer to covid, and in particular I want have had enough of that. I had enough of that in the to speak about the third, on extending the transition last Parliament, and I do not want to go through it period. I and my party have vociferously called for that again. The country made that decision spectacularly, not because we do not accept the result and we want to and I am not going to do that. delay it ad infinitum, but because businesses and business organisations—we are talking about not the Council of But I would raise one issue: the difficulty that we have Europe, but people who are struggling to keep their of conducting these negotiations in open session. Every businesses afloat in the middle of a pandemic, when negotiation is conducted in open session, with people jobs are being lost hand over fist—have said time and briefing journalists on either side as we go through. The again that, if we were to end up in a no-deal situation at reason for that is that there is a fundamental problem the end of the transition period, it would be impossible with the dispute resolution mechanism set up when the for them to put in place all the infrastructure they need withdrawal agreement was agreed in the first place. All for their supply chains. the effort in that agreement was down to arbitration, which is not an enclosed area. It should not have been Jack Brereton: Businesses in my constituency say to straight into arbitration. They should have had, first of me that it is the uncertainty of delay after delay that is all, a process of mediation which is incredibly discreet. causing the most damage to our economy and businesses. Anyone who has been through a commercial mediation Does the hon. Lady agree that a further delay from will know that they should not blab to a journalist or extending the transition period would only prolong that? anyone else about what is happening during that mediation. If I were doing this again—not that I did it, but if we Munira Wilson: There are two types of uncertainty. were going through it again—I would strongly recommend Crashing out without a deal at the end of the transition that the Government go for mediation. Of course, it is period is complete uncertainty, in terms of the unknown. not in the interests of the EU to do that; it does not Although there may be some uncertainty from extending understand the concept very well. the transition period, at least businesses are able to That is really all I want to say about this, except for continue to trade easily. One of the issues that I want to one thing. The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mike Hill) touch on is medicines, about which the industry has mentioned the amount that the leave campaign that was spoken out very clearly in the past week or so. fined. The first organisation to be fined for not keeping The Government’s choosing to pass the deadline for the proper accounts and not declaring the right amount extending the transition period, as we hurtle towards a was the Liberal Democrats, who were fined £18,000 by potential no deal, was reckless and a monumental act of the Electoral Commission. self-harm for this country. I want briefly to touch on 37WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 38WH three points. First, on the rights of EU citizens and last week. With a supply chain already hit by the naturalisation, I am concerned, given that we have challenges of covid during the pandemic, they are very already seen some rolling back from commitments in concerned that if we end up with no deal at the end of the withdrawal agreement, that the rights of UK citizens December, there could be real supply chain issues with in the EU and EU citizens in the UK are at risk. In my medicines crossing the Channel. They have called for an borough of Richmond upon Thames, we have 14,500 EU urgent mutual recognition agreement to ensure that nationals who are applying for pre-settled or settled important tests and inspections are recognised either status under the EU citizenship scheme. Back in May, side of the Channel. the Home Office snuck out some guidance that made it There is still a lack of clarity about how the Northern harder for those with settled status to secure British Ireland protocol will work in terms of regulated products citizenship. That has thrown several individuals’ futures such as medicines if no trade deal is in place and how into the air and, unfortunately, despite my letter on the medicines shipped from Great Britain to Northern Ireland topic to the Home Secretary on 29 May, I have yet to will be treated on the other side of the border. While receive a response. the deadline for securing an extension to the transition Wera Hobhouse: Are we not talking here about the period has passed––though where there is a will, human cost of Brexit? We are talking about uncertainties, there is a way, so if there were a last minute change of but it is important to look not just at business uncertainties heart, I am sure that the European Union would be all but human people’s uncertainties, and the cruel situations ears––it is imperative that in the short time remaining that some of them find themselves in. we secure the closest possible alignment with the EU in terms of customs, of regulations on medicines and Munira Wilson: Absolutely. The business situation is other regulated products and of our food and agricultural also a human situation, because we are talking about standards. And let us not forget people––how we the loss of jobs and livelihoods. treat our EU citizens and how our citizens are treated in I want briefly to touch on agriculture and food standards, the EU. because my inbox has been overflowing with emails about this issue and the many concerns of constituents about the potential for undermining those standards as 6.49 pm we enter into trade deals. The Liberal Democrats and Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP): others have consistently tried to amend the Agriculture Thank you, Sir David, for the opportunity to speak in Bill on its passage through Parliament to protect our this debate on three very important petitions. Each of standards, but the Government have refused to acquiesce them, as you mentioned at the beginning, has been on the point. In the case of the Trade Bill, they are signed by more than 100,000 people, and they show the refusing any democratic or parliamentary scrutiny. I am depth of feeling surrounding these issues. It is also, I not sure how that is taking back control. believe, a great demonstration of democracy in action In the final area I want to touch on, I must declare an that people in the street—the public—can have their interest. Prior to coming to this place, I worked for nine views heard in this salubrious building. years in the pharmaceutical industry and I still have a With your permission, Sir David, I will briefly address small shareholding in Novartis Pharmaceuticals. On all three petitions. The first is “Halt Brexit For A Public medicines and health in general, it is clear that there is Inquiry”. It states: no oven-ready deal as promised back in December. In “The UK’s departure from the EU looms but questions remain the midst of a pandemic, people are rightly worried about the legitimacy of the Referendum. The Electoral Commission about their health and several constituents have written said illegal overspending occurred during the Referendum. Were to me about their concerns about the UK leaving the the vote/any subsequent political acts affected? Article 50 was European Medicines Agency at the end of this year and triggered. Was the overspend known about then?” what that might mean for the licensing of a covid These questions remain unanswered. A significant focus vaccine or treatment. They are also concerned about us for this petition is questions of overspending, its affects leaving the EHIC––European health insurance card–– and the timing of the release of information relative to scheme that means that we can get treatment abroad the triggering of article 50. There is little doubt, as the and European citizens can get treatment here. The point Electoral Commission insisted, that more than one about medicines and vaccines regulation applies equally group broke electoral law and spending limits, in some to non-covid treatments. cases by quite substantial amounts. It is less clear what Before anyone intervenes, I appreciate that the Health the effects have been. A poll by Opinium in 2017 suggested Secretary has made an announcement today about the that 26% of Brexit voters felt that they had been misled UK collaborating with the US,Canada and other regulatory by promises during the campaign, and that voters in agencies on cancer medicines. That is welcome and I that sample would by then have voted 47% to 44% to congratulate the Government on that, but we must remain. remember that the UK is only 3% of the global With regard to subsequent political acts, this seems a pharmaceutical market, so if we go our own way on most serious concern. Evidence gathered and analysed medicines, British citizens will be further back in the by the Institute for Government in March 2019, but queue for new medicines and treatments. Let us not also supported by many other commentators since, forget that. The deal announced today is only for cancer points to dramatic consequences. This is not the place treatments and there are many other disease areas where for the detail, but an introductory paragraph from the British citizens risk being left behind and missing out report, referring to the effects on Ministers, civil servants, on innovative treatments. public bodies, money, devolution and Parliament, states: More pressing is the concern raised by European “In each area, we find that the challenge of negotiating, Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations legislating and implementing Brexit has called into question how and the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry government works in the UK. The roles of the Prime Minister 39WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 40WH

[Allan Dorans] delaying negotiations so that they can concentrate on dealing with the coronavirus pandemic, the resultant and her Cabinet, of civil servants and their departments…and of health, economic and social upheaval and the unprecedented parliamentarians and the devolved administrations” circumstances that we currently face, which can only be have all seen their roles considerably affected and changed dealt with by a Government with a clear, single focus on significantly during this period. the problems on a massive scale that have been caused As for the timing of article 50, it was invoked on by the coronavirus pandemic. Doing so would necessitate 29 March 2017. One month earlier, on 24 February, extending the transition period; there can only be a The Daily Telegraph reported that the Electoral Commission one-off extension, which should be for two years. There was investigating the spending of Vote Leave and Britain is, of course, an obvious case to be made for extending Stronger in Europe, so clearly rumours of an overspend the transition period. were well known to the Cabinet before article 50 was Notwithstanding covid, the UK is clearly not ready invoked. It is therefore my belief that there is sufficient for a hard Brexit. Up to 7,000 trucks carrying goods doubt about the legitimacy of the referendum result from the UK to the EU might face two-day delays after surrounding spending limits and the political processes the Brexit transition, according to a letter from the undertaken during that time to warrant a formal Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Lloyds and investigation and that Brexit be halted. I therefore fully Barclays were among the first UK banks to give notice support the petition to halt Brexit for a public inquiry to UK citizens living in the EU, warning them that their into these matters. accounts will be closed on 31 December unless there is agreement. Border control posts at Northern Ireland Graham Stringer: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that ports will almost certainly not be ready in time, according the points that he is putting on behalf of the petitioners to Stormont Minister Edwin Poots. Make UK estimates were actually put to the courts in this country on that UK firms will have to complete 275 million customer judicial review, and that the courts threw the case out forms, up from 55 million, at a cost that HMRC has and said it lacked all merit? estimated at £15 billion a year. Allan Dorans: I am aware of that, and I await the I strongly believe that if we asked the public today outcome with some excitement. whether they think we should delay Brexit, even for The second petition calls for the establishment of a those reasons alone, a majority would agree. Some public inquiry into the conduct of the 2016 EU referendum. Brexiters would not, of course, as we have heard today— It states: getting Brexit done, for some, is more important than dealing exclusively with the current pandemic that engulfs “There is now strong evidence of serious misconduct during the 2016 EU Referendum, including interference by foreign actors this country and threatens us all with dire and unimaginable and governments. This must be investigated under the Inquiries consequences. Act (2005).” Public opinion, especially that influenced by our right- There are certain reports of interference. The Intelligence wing media, is not necessarily the best basis for policy and Security Committee of this Parliament published a development. By the Government’s own admission, any report on the interference and concluded: deal would be only a bare-bones trade agreement. Their “The UK Government have actively avoided looking for evidence own analysis says that there will be a GDP hit of up to that Russia interfered.” 9% over the next 15 years if we further disadvantage It also concluded that the Government’s response was our economy as we seek to recover from covid. All not fit for purpose.It was unacceptable that the Government those factors require the undivided attention of delayed the publication of that very important report Government, without the distraction of contentious by a year. negotiations about the arrangements to be put in place at the end of the current transition period. I therefore Ciaran Martin, the then head of the UK’s National add my support to petition 300412, to extend the transition Cyber Security Centre, confirmed that Russian hackers and delay negotiations until the coronavirus outbreak is had attacked British media, telecoms and energy companies brought properly under control. over the past year. That the UK Government have regularly avoided looking for evidence is certainly cause for suspicion, but that in itself is not solid evidence of 6.58 pm interference. Similarly, their being able only to refer in a Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure press release to suspects as “Russian hackers” does not to wind up for the Opposition with you in the Chair, allow us to form a strong or firm conclusion that Sir David. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for foreign actors or Governments were involved. Hartlepool (Mike Hill) for the way in which he opened Where there are strong suspicions in any area of up our discussion, and other hon. Members for their national security in the context of the protection of our contributions to the debate. democracy, further investigation must take place in the The concerns raised in the petitions probably reflect public interest. I believe that that case has been made, the time at which they were launched, which was several based on those strong suspicions; that there is sufficient months ago. The priority now is to look at the challenges evidence to warrant an investigation into the circumstances; that we face with just weeks to go before the deal that and that it would be best taken forward by a public we need on our future relationship with the European inquiry. I therefore add my support to petition 250178, Union has to be concluded. to establish a public inquiry into the conduct of the On the issues raised in petition 300412, Labour pressed 2016 referendum. the Government, perhaps with some prescience, to give Finally, the third petition seeks to extend the transition themselves some flexibility, when Parliament debated and delay negotiations until after the coronavirus outbreak the withdrawal agreement Bill, and we tabled an amendment has been dealt with. The Government must consider to that effect just in case unforeseen events might lead to 41WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 42WH the Government needing some wriggle room. I have to Originally, he said that it would be done by July, despite say that at that time we did not anticipate a global the pandemic, and then, forgetting his words, that it pandemic, but nevertheless we made that case. Our would be done by September. That came and went too, amendment was rejected, and the departure date was so he set a new ultimatum of mid-October, which he locked in law. The Government could have changed it then dropped over the weekend after his conversation before 1 July, but they did not, and neither did the with the European Commission President, Ursula von European Union propose a delay. der Leyen. We left the EU on 31 January, and we will leave As a number of Members have said, businesses need the transition period on 31 December. We accept clarity. The Government are providing confusion. The that completely, so I have to say that I share some of the same incompetence that we have seen in the handling of exasperation of the hon. Member for Henley (John the pandemic is now threatening jobs and the security Howell)—if not for the same reason—at some of the of our country through the handling of these negotiations. contributions from Government Members and the allegations that they are making about the position of Graham Stringer: In previous debates during this the Opposition. They should—we all should—have some long discussion, my hon. Friend and I have disagreed. humility and some honesty in looking back at the Today, I essentially agree with the approach that he has paralysis in Parliament over the last four years, and taken, but is he not being a little asymmetric? It is his recognise that many of the delays were caused by the job to attack the Government and criticise and analyse way in which the Conservative party was tearing itself what they do, but does he not feel that one reason why apart on this issue and that some of those who delayed there is not an agreement now is that the EU has a deal being reached were those described, I think, by a withdrawn what it offered right at the beginning—a former Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer as Canada-style agreement—and has also withdrawn the the Brexit extremists within his own party. Indeed, the recognition of this country as a third country, which Prime Minister was utilising the issue as he egged them was previously on offer? on in his rise to power. But we are now into the final Paul Blomfield: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s month of negotiations, and both the UK Government question. He is right that we have not always agreed on and the EU are clearly seeking a resolution within these issues over the last four years, but we are in weeks to secure the deal that we need by 31 December. roughly the same place now, in wanting to secure a deal The other two petitions raise real concerns, and they by December—not just any deal but the deal that the were clearly exacerbated by the Government’s handling Government have pledged. That deal was not described of the report from Parliament’s Conservative-chaired by the Prime Minister as something that might be Intelligence and Security Committee, the publication of achieved; he said it was there, ready to go and we just which was deliberately and unnecessarily delayed by the had to press the button. I will return to the specific Prime Minister until after the general election. It was question of Canada, because it is important. damning in its conclusion that the Government Wera Hobhouse: Is it not also true that it is unfair to “had not seen or sought evidence of successful interference in UK say that Brexit was not done in the last three years democratic processes”. because of all the people who wanted to delay it, when As one of its members said when the report was published it was the Tories and the Conservative Government who in July, did not get the deal done? They dithered and argued “The report reveals that no one in government knew if Russia among themselves, and even decapitated their own Prime interfered in or sought to influence the referendum, because they Minister. Is it not true that the Conservative party was did not want to know.” also to blame for Brexit not getting done for such a There are real issues that deserve consideration, but long time? they cannot halt Brexit, as the petitioners seek, because we have, as a number of Members have acknowledged, Paul Blomfield: Indeed, that is the point I was making already left the European Union. That is the result of a moment ago. The agony within the Conservative the mandate that the Government received in last party, as it tore itself apart, was a significant delaying December’selection, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent factor in getting the deal done. South (Jack Brereton) mentioned, but it is only one half As a number of Members have said, businesses require of the mandate. The other half is to deliver the deal that certainty. We welcomed the Minister back to her place the Prime Minister promised the British people. That at Cabinet Office questions last Thursday, and I am pledged an delighted to see her on the Front Bench today. I will ask “ambitious, wide-ranging and balanced economic partnership”, her four specific questions, to which I would be grateful with for a reply in her closing remarks. “no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all First, can the Minister guarantee to the automotive sectors”. sector that it will not face any tariffs from 1 January, in accordance with the Prime Minister’s promise, despite It pledged a deal that would safeguard the apparent decision by the Government not to press “workers’ rights, consumer and environmental protection” to secure an agreement on rules of origin? and keep people safe with a Secondly, can the Minister assure the financial and “broad, comprehensive and balanced security partnership.” legal sectors, which are hugely important to our economy, That was not a proposal or a wish list, but an agreement— that the Government’s deal will allow them to do business and one that was ready to sign off. In the Prime Minister’s without new barriers, as the Prime Minister promised? words, Thirdly, can the Minister guarantee that there will be “We’ve got a deal that’s oven-ready. We’ve just got to put it in no weakening of the arrangements that we have had at gas mark four, give it 20 minutes and Bob’s your uncle.” within the European Union to keep the UK safe from 43WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 44WH

[Paul Blomfield] election and we have left the EU. The language that we used in talking about Brexit today, as if it had not serious international crime and terrorism, and, in particular, happened, is a little out of date. that we will retain access to systems such as the European I thank the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mike Hill) criminal records information system, which shares data for presenting the debate on behalf of the Petitions about prior convictions across EU countries? Committee and for speaking on the three petitions. Finally, returning to the point made by my hon. Hon. Members have put their arguments across with a Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham great deal of vigour, but not rancour, which is a refreshing Stringer), given that the Government have insisted that change from the previous Parliament. they want a Canada-style deal, which raises the question In responding to the calls in the petitions to establish of why that is off the table, would the Minister confirm a public inquiry into the conduct of the 2016 EU that the Government would be willing to accept the referendum, or halt Brexit for a public inquiry, or to non-regression clause provisions within the EU-Canada extend the transition period and delay negotiations, I deal on workers’ rights and environmental protections? can state that there are no plans to do any of those Those are precisely the points that were ripped out of things. Two of the petitions focus on alleged breaches of the withdrawal agreement after the December election. electoral law in the 2016 referendum, but the allegations If the Government were prepared to accept those, it have been rightly investigated and dealt with by the would be a gamechanger in the negotiations. Electoral Commission, the independent regulator. The Those are straightforward questions because they are case is now closed. Our focus should not be on returning all based on promises made by the Prime Minister, so it to the divisions of the recent past, but on this country’s should be relatively simple for the Minister to say yes to bright future. each one of them. If not—I hate to think it—the Government might not have been telling the truth. I will consider various points in further detail: the evident legitimacy of the EU referendum, our stance on The coronavirus pandemic, which is referenced in foreign interference, the important role of the Electoral e-petition 300412, makes it even more important that Commission, and our future focus and ongoing negotiations the Government deliver the deal that the Prime Minister with the EU. First, let me deal with the evident legitimacy promised, to support jobs, the security of our country, of the EU referendum. Others have highlighted this business and people’s livelihoods. As we look to the today, but I shall repeat it: 17.4 million people voted to future, rebuilding from the devastating impact of the leave the EU. More people voted for Brexit than have virus, we cannot face the additional problems of a ever voted for anything else in the UK. It is a pleasure to disruptive departure from the transition. Covid-19 has welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley taken people’s bandwidth in the civil service, politics (Nick Fletcher), who is a product of that will of the and the EU. Businesses have not been able to prepare in people. the way that they would otherwise have done, because their capacity has been stretched. People from across England, Wales, Scotland and It was unfortunate that the Chancellor of the Duchy Northern Ireland voted to leave the European Union. of Lancaster, in his recent statement to the House, tried That clear mandate from the people of our Union has to point the finger of blame at businesses for not being since been rightfully respected and delivered. Ignoring prepared. They are not helped by the unanswered questions the referendum result would have been deeply damaging that remain. Businesses around the country have reasonable to British democracy. We saw the damage that the past questions about trade not only in goods, but in services. three years of indecision in Parliament caused. Additionally, The agricultural sector has questions about health, food the legality of the EU referendum is beyond doubt. It safety, standards and checks. The hon. Member for was carried out based on legislation passed by Parliament Twickenham (Munira Wilson) talked about the problems with clear and repeated commitments from the Government of the pharmaceutical sector. I have talked to many to implement the outcome. The EU Referendum Act 2015 other sectors in my role. Businesses representing critical was scrutinised and debated in Parliament for more sectors of the economy simply cannot get a hearing than 34 hours. The provisions relating to the conduct of from this Government. the referendum were carefully scrutinised and ratified by Parliament. The Government have maintained throughout the coronavirus crisis that they could deliver a deal in the More recently in the 2019 general election, the British timeframe they have allotted themselves. They will be people cast their votes once again and elected with a judged by that promise. As it stands at the moment, substantial majority a Government committed to upholding they need to get a grip and deliver the deal: not any the result of the referendum. Following the election, deal, but the deal they promised last December; the deal Parliament voted with clear majorities in both Houses that we need for the country to move on. for the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. On accusations of foreign interference, I emphasise that 7.10 pm it is and always will be an absolute priority to protect The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Julia the UK against foreign interference and maintain the Lopez): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, security and integrity of our democratic processes. It is Sir David. This is my first Westminster Hall debate absolutely unacceptable for any nation, including Russia, since returning from maternity leave. I feel I should have to interfere in the democratic processes of another contributed to the previous debate on what it is like to country, and we take any allegations of interference in raise a baby during a pandemic as I am a little more the UK democratic processes by a foreign Government qualified. very seriously. We have seen no evidence of successful I have a strange feeling of déjà vu, as though nothing interference in the EU referendum. However, we will has changed in the year I have been away, but of course continue to safeguard against future risks, strengthen many things have changed. We have had a general our resilience, and ensure that the regulatory framework 45WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 46WH is as effective as possible. The Government are committed sovereign nation. That is what the British people voted to making sure the rules work now and in future. In July for twice. That said, we remain committed to working 2019 we established the Defending Democracy Programme, hard to reach an agreement by the middle of this bringing together expertise and capabilities from across month. Departments, the security and intelligence agencies, The Government were elected on a manifesto that and the civil service, to ensure that UK democracy made it clear that the transition period would end on remains open, vibrant and secure. As announced in the 31 December 2020. That is now enshrined in UK law. Queen’s Speech, we are bringing forward new legislation At the second meeting of the withdrawal agreement to provide the security services and law enforcement Joint Committee on 12 June, the UK formally notified agencies with the tools that they need to disrupt hostile the EU that it will neither accept nor seek any extension state activity. to the transition period. Our position remains unchanged. Now I will turn to the important role of the Electoral Under no circumstances will the Government ask for or Commission, which is the independent regulatory body agree to an extension of the transition period. The responsible for ensuring that referenda are run effectively Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Lord True and in accordance with the law.The Electoral Commission have kept both Houses informed of progress throughout has the right to conduct investigations into alleged the negotiations. offences, and to take action when offences have been I would like now to turn to some of the issues raised committed. Such investigations are, rightly, independent by colleagues in this vigorous and lively debate. I welcome of the Government. The Electoral Commission did the work that the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira indeed undertake investigations into the EU referendum Wilson) is doing to give her constituents a voice. It is and, regrettably, levied fines on multiple groups on both right that we bring everyone together, in this next stage sides of the referendum campaign. In addition to the of our country’sjourney.The International Trade Secretary fines levied against leave campaigners, remain-supporting has repeatedly given assurances on food standards. The groups such as Unison and the GMB also breached Trade Bill is about the roll-over of existing FTAs; it is political finance rules, and were fined by the Electoral not about future ones. Commission for failing to deliver an accurate spending return. More serious matters were referred to the police, I appreciate the contribution from the hon. Member who investigated them further and, again, found no for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Allan Dorans). I have evidence of criminal activity. always found it peculiar that his party has such distaste for the results of referenda at the same time as they call Focusing on the future, we have now entered the final for more of them, and that they can so unreservedly phase of negotiations with the EU. Last week the ninth champion petitions as a democratic device over a good round of negotiations took place. There were positive old-fashioned election result. discussions in the core areas of a trade and economic I thank the hon. Member for Hartlepool for the agreement—notably trade in goods and services, transport, gracious way in which he acknowledged that the majority energy,social security and participation in EU programmes. of his constituents do not want to overturn the referendum However, significant differences remain, notably on the result. He asked how the pandemic has affected the level playing field and fisheries. The Chancellor of the readiness of businesses. That has clearly been a challenge, Duchyof Lancaster provided a written ministerial statement and it was also raised by the hon. Member for Sheffield earlier today with an update on this round of negotiations. Central (Paul Blomfield). Unfortunately, the pandemic The Prime Minister spoke to President von der Leyen has meant that businesses are, rightly, thinking of many on 3 October to review the progress of negotiations. other things. We are keen to get the message out that They agreed on the importance of finding an agreement things will be changing for those who deal with the EU, if at all possible, and instructed the chief negotiators to whether or not we get an FTA. That message needs to work intensively to try to do so, given how short the be rammed home, because there is sometimes a time now is before the European Council on 15 October, misunderstanding in this place that everything will be when we hope we can find an agreement. the same if we get a deal. That is simply not the case, I am afraid that while I would like to answer with which is why we have done a lot of work on transition some specifics on the negotiations, it is a little above my readiness. We now have a transition checker on gov.uk pay grade, so I cannot do so on this occasion. Since the that people can go to for information on how to get last round of negotiations, as set out in terms of reference, ready for January, and I encourage people to look at it. UK negotiators have continued in formal discussions We will also publish an updated border operating model with the Commission in Brussels and London. We have this week. been clear from the outset about the principles underlying My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South our approach. We are seeking a relationship that respects (Jack Brereton) rightly reminded us that we have left the our sovereignty and has a free trade agreement at its EU. The public have made their views known about core, similar to those that the EU has already agreed further delay, and we will not extend the transition with like-minded countries such as Canada. As the period. Prime Minister has set out, there needs to be an agreement with the EU by the time of the European Council The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham meeting on 15 October in order for it to be in force Stringer) drew an interesting comparison with the United before the end of the transition period on 31 December. States. The Government share many of his ambitions By then, if there is no agreement, there will not be a free for how any future relationship should protect our trade agreement. That would mean that we would have sovereignty. a trading arrangement with the EU more akin to Australia’s. I welcome the contribution from my hon. Friend the That would still be a good outcome for the UK. It Member for Don Valley in his first Westminster Hall would represent our reclaiming our independence as a debate,and on a subject about which he feels so passionately. 47WH Leaving the EU 5 OCTOBER 2020 Leaving the EU 48WH

[Julia Lopez] constituency. It was the largest leave-voting constituency in the north-east. As an individual MP, I represented He says we need to move on, and I agree. There is a their interest all the way through. difference between a petition and an election, as I That takes me to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent mentioned earlier. In December, the public made their South (Jack Brereton), whose predecessor was in the views clear. same position as I am. We have to remember that these I note that the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) are not party-political debates; they are petitions debates. is vastly more popular in her constituency than her As a member of the Petitions Committee, I am impartial, party is with the rest of the country; I think that is irrespective of my views and opinions. I hope I have got because she makes her case so gracefully. I share her that across, because time and again they are seen to be regret over the division that we have seen in recent years. political. That travels into the newspapers, which is not I hope we can move on, united over the love that we in the interest of Parliament or the petitions system in have for our country. its own right. My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) I thank the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), shared his exasperation that we have to reheat what is my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton now a very old debate. I welcome his valuable work with (Graham Stringer), and the hon. Members for Don the Council of Europe. Valley (Nick Fletcher), for Henley (John Howell) and for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) for their interesting I wish to thank again the hon. Member for Hartlepool contributions to the debate. It is good to be back in our for securing the debate. We have heard a number of places in Westminster Hall, and I hope that the petitioners arguments on this topic, but I remain entirely unconvinced forgive us for mixing the petitions together. Covid has that we need to launch a public inquiry on the EU impacted on the Petitions Committee’s operations; hence referendum or that we should halt Brexit, extend the the need to prioritise this. transition period and delay negotiations. Indeed, the Government have absolutely no plan to do any of those Question put and agreed to. things. Clear legitimacy underpins the EU referendum Resolved, from the 17.4 million people across our Union who That this House has considered e-petitions 241848, 250178 and voted to leave and the legal scrutiny that was applied to 300412 relating to the UK’s departure from the EU. the European Union Referendum Act 2015. In addition, we have made it clear on a number of occasions that we Sir David Amess (in the Chair): Just before colleagues have not seen evidence of successful interference in the leave, I want to say that it is very good to be back in referendum, and allegations of electoral overspend have Westminster Hall. There are teething problems, particularly rightly been investigated and dealt with by the Electoral with the way I chaired proceedings. Please leave through Commission. We now need to focus on our bright the door that is marked “exit only”. The Chairman of future, negotiating our future partnership with the EU Ways and Means said that, to save the Doorkeepers and forging trade deals with the rest of the world. coming in, you should wipe the microphones if you have touched them; the wipes are next to Graham 7.22 pm Stringer. It would help. If you have any other observations about the way that this session did or did not work, Mike Hill: On behalf of the Petitions Committee, I please let the Chairman of Ways and Means know. thank the petitioners for achieving over 100,000 signatures Thank you. on each of the petitions and therefore ensuring that such petitions—within the rules of the House—get debated. I also thank the Front Bench spokespersons, 7.25 pm especially the Minister, for clarifying the position of my Sitting adjourned. 17WS Written Statements 5 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 18WS

was disbursed in eight tranches, and the final tranche Written Statements was drawn down on 26 September 2013. Ireland has made interest payments on the loan every six months since the Monday 5 October 2020 first disbursement. On 7 September, in line with the agreed repayment CABINET OFFICE schedule, HM Treasury received a total payment of £405,490,687.38fromIreland.Thiscomprisestherepayment Future Relationship with EU: Negotiations of £403,370,000 in principal and £2,120,687.38 in accrued interest. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister HM Treasury has today provided a further report to for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): The Government Parliament in relation to the loan as required under the have made a commitment to update Parliament on the Loans to Ireland Act 2010. The report relates to the period progress of our future relationship negotiations with from 1 April 2020 to 30 September 2020. It reports fully the EU. This statement provides an update on the ninth on the two principal repayments received by HM Treasury round of negotiations. during this period, and sets out details of future payments Led by the UK’s Chief Negotiator, David Frost, up to the final repayment on 26 March 2021. The negotiators from the UK and the EU held discussions Government continue to expect the loan to be repaid in in Brussels on 29 September-2 October 2020. There full and on time. were substantive discussions on almost all issues. A written ministerial statement on the previous statutory Discussions covered all workstreams including: report regarding the loan to Ireland was issued to Trade in goods: Core areas of the goods elements of the Parliament on 29 April 2020, Official Report, column 26WS. FTA, including market access, customs and regulatory issues. [HCWS486] Trade in services, investment and other FTA issues: Including mode 4, procurement, digital and intellectual property (including geographical indications). HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL Fisheries: Quota-sharing and governance. GOVERNMENT “Level playing field”: Covering subsidies, tax, competition, labour,environment, sustainable development and governance. Energy: Including civil nuclear co-operation and electricity Domestic Abuse: Support for Victims and gas trading. Transport: Road transport, aviation safety and air services. Law enforcement: Covering a number of capabilities including The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Prüm, mutual legal assistance, extradition and our future Communities and Local Government (Kelly Tolhurst): arrangements with EU agencies. Through the Domestic Abuse Bill, this Government are Mobility and social security co-ordination: Social security placing a new statutory duty on tier one local authorities co-ordination arrangements. to provide support to victims of domestic abuse in safe Participation in Union programmes: Covering the general accommodation in England. Subject to the Bill receiving terms for UK participation and Peace+. Royal Assent, this new duty will commence in April 2021. Thematic co-operation: Including future health security and To help local authorities plan and prepare for the security of information arrangements. implementation of the new duty,I am pleased to announce Governance: Including appropriate institutional architecture. today a £6 million domestic abuse capacity building There were positive discussions in the core areas of a fund. trade and economic agreement, notably trade in goods and services, transport, energy, social security, and I recognise the invaluable work that local authorities participation in EU programmes. This has however do each and every day to help residents in their local been true for some time. Progress has also been possible areas, including the most vulnerable in our society. This on a law enforcement agreement. In other areas, however, new funding will help ensure that local authorities are significant and familiar differences remain, notably on resourced to prepare for implementation of the new duty. the level playing field, and on fisheries where the gap It will promote more effective delivery on commencement, between us remains very large. meaning local authorities will be more quickly able to commission much needed support for those victims of The Prime Minister spoke to President von der Leyen domestic abuse and their children who are currently on 3 October to review the progress of negotiations. turned away from refuges and other safe accommodation They agreed on the importance of finding an agreement, because their needs cannot be met. if at all possible, and instructed the chief negotiators to work intensively to try to do so, given how short time This fund will be allocated equally to tier one local now is before the European Council on 15 October. authorities (unitary and metropolitan authorities, county [HCWS487] councils, the Greater London Association for London boroughs and the Council of the Isles of Scilly), who will be the accountable body under the new duty. It will TREASURY be allocated as an unring-fenced grant in recognition that local authorities will know best how to prepare Bilateral Loan to Ireland locally. I encourage tier one authorities to use it to engage with their local domestic abuse services, including The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): specialist services for victims from diverse groups. I would like to update Parliament on the loan to Ireland. To further help local authorities with their preparation In December 2010, the UK agreed to provide a work, I am also publishing guidance setting out the bilateral loan of £3.2 billion as part of a ¤67.5 billion purpose and suggested outcomes of this fund, and my international assistance package for Ireland. The loan officials are holding workshops to support local authorities. 19WS Written Statements 5 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 20WS

Today I am also launching a consultation to seek They join the following list of trade envoys: views on the methodology proposed for allocating funding The Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yambury (Jane Bonham- to meet the new burdens associated with the new duty Carter), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Mexico, once it comes into force. The level of funding is of The Baroness Morris of Bolton OBE (Patricia Morris), course a matter for the spending review. the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Jordan, Kuwait and the I encourage all local authorities to use this range of Palestinian Territories, support to ensure they are ready for implementation in The Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Emma Harriet), April 2021. the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Azerbaijan, Iraq, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, [HCWS485] The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Bangladesh, My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies), INTERNATIONAL TRADE Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Argentina, Chile, Colombia and Peru, Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy Programme My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to the ASEAN Economic Community (AEC), Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines, The Secretary of State for International Trade (Elizabeth My hon. Friend the Member for Romford Truss): The Prime Minister has today made 15 new (Andrew Rosindell), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to appointments to his trade envoy programme. Tanzania, These new appointments will extend the total number My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire of trade envoys to 31 parliamentarians covering 69 markets. (Andrew Selous), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to South The Prime Minister’s trade envoy programme is an Africa, unpaid and voluntary cross-party network, which supports My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), the UK’s ambitious trade and investment agenda in the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Ghana and Guinea, global markets. The new appointments are: The Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Richard Faulkner), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Taiwan, The Baroness Hooper CMG (Gloria Hooper) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Costa Rica, The Lord Popat (Dolar Popat), the Prime Minister’s the Dominican Republic and Panama, Trade Envoy to Rwanda, Uganda and the Democratic Republic of Congo, The Baroness Meyer CBE (Catherine Meyer) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Ukraine, The Lord Risby (Richard Spring), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Algeria and Lebanon, My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Darren Henry) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Therighthon.MemberforLaganValley(SirJeffreyDonaldson), the Caribbean (with focus on 12 Commonwealth Countries), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Egypt, My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) Therighthon.theLordAstorof HeverDL(JohnJacobAstor), has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Oman, the Western Balkans (covering Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, The right hon. the Lord Janvrin GCB GCVO QSO Kosovo, Montenegro, North Macedonia and Serbia), (Robin Janvrin), the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Turkey My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The and Weald (Helen Grant) has been appointed as the Prime Therighthon.theLordLamontof Lerwick(NormanLamont), Minister’s Trade Envoy to Nigeria, the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Iran. My hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham [HCWS483] (Daniel Kawczynski) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Mongolia, My hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire PRIME MINISTER (Heather Wheeler) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, Northern Ireland-Related Terrorism: ISC Report My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Katherine Fletcher) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Mozambique, The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): The Intelligence My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Damien Moore) and Security Committee of Parliament has today laid has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to before Parliament a report of the former Committee on Tunisia and Libya, Northern Ireland-related terrorism, looking at the key My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Theo Clarke) challenges faced by MI5 and others in tackling the has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to threat posed by dissident republican (DR) groups in Kenya, Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Gamier) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to The current security situation in Northern Ireland Brunei, Myanmar and Thailand, (NI) is in no way comparable to the troubles. However, The Lord Austin of Dudley (Ian Austin) has been appointed DR and loyalist paramilitary groups continue to be a as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Israel, feature of life and the threat in NI from DR groups The Lord Davies of Abersoch CBE (Evan Mervyn Davies) remains unchanged at severe, meaning an attack is has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to highly likely. DRs reject the 1998 Belfast agreement and Sri Lanka, consider the use of violence a legitimate tool. Despite My right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire significant pressure from the police and security forces, (Dr Murrison) has been appointed as the Prime Minister’s demonstrated by the recent arrests targeting the New Trade Envoy to Morocco, and IRA, the terrorist threat they pose is enduring, and The right hon. the Lord Bates (Michael Bates) has been there remains a minority who aim to destabilise the appointed as the Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy to Ethiopia. peace process, harming communities across NI. 21WS Written Statements 5 OCTOBER 2020 Written Statements 22WS

The DR threat is, however, just one part of the wider Government can level up transport infrastructure and security picture in NI. The lines are often blurred between improve connectivity between Scotland, Wales, Northern those involved in terrorist activity, paramilitary activity, Ireland and England, boosting access to opportunities and organised crime. In one way or another, these and improving people’s everyday connections. groups exert control over and exploit those communities Working closely with the devolved Administrations, for their own criminal ends. To achieve lasting peace in Sir Peter will look at road, rail, air and sea links, and NI these threats cannot be dealt with in isolation. how they could be improved to fuel the UK’s recovery The Government welcome the Committee’sconclusions from the covid-19 pandemic. Sir Peter brings extensive on the importance of covert human intelligence sources experience and knowledge to the role with over 45 years (CHIS) and in particular the strong endorsement that it working in the transport sector—including as Chair of is sometimes necessary to authorise CHIS to participate Network Rail and successfully running London’stransport in criminal conduct. This is a long-standing tactic which network during the Olympics. is vital for national security and the prevention and detection of crime. The Covert Human Intelligence The review will look at how the quality and availability Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill introduced to Parliament of transport infrastructure between England, Wales, on 24 September, and which has its Second Reading in Scotland and Northern Ireland can support quality the House of Commons today, provides an express of life in communities across the UK while also power for the authorisation of criminal conduct, providing aiding economic recovery. This will in turn lead to certainty to public authorities using this critical tool. recommendations on whether and how best to improve The Bill makes clear that a criminal conduct authorisation connections, and whether that includes the need to can only be authorised where strictly necessary and invest in additional infrastructure by the UK Government. proportionate to do so, and is subject to robust oversight Among other things, Sir Peter will look at the feasibility including by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. and conduct a detailed initial assessment of options for improved road and rail connections between England I welcome this report and thank the Committee for the and Scotland, and England and Wales, as well as improved work that has gone into it. The Government will consider air links across the UK. the report in full and respond formally in due course. [HCWS488] The review will also look to the future—considering the role of future technologies and assess environmental TRANSPORT impacts of current and future infrastructure. Sir Peter will be expected to publish his final recommendations Union Connectivity Review in summer 2021. This announcement follows a recent pledge by the The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps): UK Government to bring forward funding to accelerate On 30 June the Prime Minister announced a review infrastructure projects in the devolved nations—working would be undertaken into Union connectivity, exploring with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the UK ways to improve connectivity between our four nations Government will identify opportunities for “spades in and bring forward funding to accelerate infrastructure the ground” ready projects to help build up communities projects. and create jobs quicker for people across the United I have now published the terms of reference for this Kingdom. independent review. Chaired by Sir Peter Hendy CBE, [HCWS484] the review will make recommendations on how the UK

ORAL ANSWERS

Monday 5 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT...... 591 GOVERNMENT—continued Affordable Homes to Buy ...... 591 Local Authorities: Funding...... 592 Agricultural Land: Development ...... 600 Overdevelopment: London and the South-East ..... 604 Brownfield Sites: Development ...... 593 Places of Worship: Covid-19...... 594 Dangerous Cladding: Residential Buildings ...... 600 Planning System: Design and Beauty...... 595 English Devolution and Local Recovery: White Regeneration: Town Centres ...... 602 Paper...... 599 Rough Sleepers: Covid-19 ...... 596 Future Homes Standard ...... 597 Topical Questions ...... 604 High Street Businesses: Covid-19 ...... 598 Local Authorities: Additional Funding for Covid-19 ...... 597 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Monday 5 October 2020

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 17WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 20WS Future Relationship with EU: Negotiations...... 17WS Northern Ireland-Related Terrorism: ISC Report .. 20WS

HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL TRANSPORT ...... 21WS GOVERNMENT...... 18WS Union Connectivity Review ...... 21WS Domestic Abuse: Support for Victims...... 18WS

INTERNATIONAL TRADE ...... 19WS TREASURY ...... 17WS Prime Minister’s Trade Envoy Programme...... 19WS Bilateral Loan to Ireland...... 17WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Monday 12 October 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 681 Monday No. 113 5 October 2020

CONTENTS

Monday 5 October 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 591] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government

CCRC Decision on 44 Post Office Prosecutions [Col. 612] Answer to urgent question—(Paul Scully)

Covid-19 Update [Col. 625] Statement—(Matt Hancock)

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill [Col. 652] Motion for Second Reading—(James Brokenshire)—on a Division, agreed to

Unduly Lenient Sentence Schema [Col. 713] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Covid-19: Maternity and Parental Leave [Col. 1WH] Leaving the EU [Col. 27WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 17WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]