2748 2748LCOUNC1l1

It the Government is concerned about throughout Australia, been com- the flexibility of the panel, I can only pleted? repeat what I1 said when I1commenced to (2) If so, when are the results of this speak; that is, we are not interfering with study likely to be released? the flexibility. We merely desire that four people should be on the panel instead of (3) Ii not, at what stage is the study. two, with the Government still retaining and what is the programming for the right to appoint anyone else it desires. completion? I am not quite so concerned about the The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied; Inclusion of a person recommended by the (1) Yes. Western Australian Council of Social Ser- (2) The summary of recommenda- vice. Such a member would probably be tions was released in the Study a lay person and I am not always in Team Report R3 of October, 1975. favour of the efforts of such people because and may be obtained through the mostly they have not had any particular Parliamentary Library, training. (3) See answer to (1). I want to point out for the last time that we are not interfering with the flexi- bility of the panel. We want at least a 2. HEALTH member of the medical profession ap- pointed and, under the amendment, a Hairdressers' Salons representative of the WACSS. The Min- The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON, to the ister is still in a position to appoint any Minister for Health: other person he desires. (1) Is an inquiry being conducted into Progress the health aspects of hairdressers' Progress reported and leave given to sit salons? again, on motion by Mr Clarko. (2) Has such a report been finalised? (3) If so, is the Minister recommend- ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: ing any changes to legislation or SPECIAL regulations for the industry? MR ONEIL (East Melville-Acting Premier) E5.59 p.m.): I move- The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied: That the House at Its rising adjourn (1) No, until Tuesday, the 5th October, at (2) Health aspects of hairdressers 4.30 p.m. salons were investigated conjointly with Industry 1971-1972 period. Question put and passed. Model Health By-laws were sub- House adjourned at 6.00 p.m. sequently amended and changed to Hairdressers Establishment Regu- lations 10th November, 1972. KQg~aieQnui (3) Not applicable. Tuesday. the 5th October, 1976 3. RAILWAYS Perishables: Cartage The PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. F. Griffith) took the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and The Hon. D). J. WORDSWORTH, to read prayers. the Minister for Health, representing the Minister for Transport: AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORT (1) Is the Minister aware that a plac- Tabling ard In the main street of Onow- THE PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. F. angerup indicated to customers a Griffith): Honourable members, I desire shortage of certain fruit and vege- to lay upon the Table of the House the tables due to the railways mislay- Auditor- General's report for the year ing aLconsignment? ended the 30th June, 1976. (2) Do such inconveniences often The report was tabled (see paper No. 362). occur? (3) Is any compensation paid In such QUESTIONS (7): ON NOTICE cases? I. TRANSPORT (4) Is the consignee expected to pay RoDad Vehicle Limits Study the cost of locating lost goods? The Hon. R. Thompson for the Hon. (5) What conditions are laid down H. W. GAYFTR, to the Minister for concerning the ability of a green- Health, representing the Minister for grocer to cart his own fruit and Transport: vegetables in regard to- (1) Has the study by the National Association of Australian State (a) types; Road Authorities into the econo- (b) weight; and mics of road vehicle limits (c) frequency of trips? (Tuesday, 5 October, 1976] 274974

(6) What alternatives do Westral (5) Is it the intention of the Govern- offer for the consignment of per- ment to increase the staff at this ishables to Onowangerup? station? (7) Is the Government considering changing the present restrictions The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied; in the future? (1) 1 sergeant, 2 constables. The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied: (2) 1 sergeant, 1 constable. One con- (1) No. stable at present on annual leave from September 6 to October 10, (2) No. 1976. (3) Yes. A claim for the value of the goads not received should be (3) Approximately 80 square miles. lodged with Westrall. (4) Approximately 7 000. (4) No. (5) Consideration will be given in c-on- (5) Under the Transport Commission junction with the requirements Act there are two different licences throughout the remainder of the on issue for the carriage of fruit State when the current Academy and vegetables. Details of these Training Course gradustes on licences and conditions regarding November 26, 1976. the cartage are as follows:- (1) (a) Types: Beans, beetroot, brussel sprouts, cab- bage, capsicums, cauli- 5. BUILDING BLOCKS flower, celery, cucum- Bremner Bay ber, fresh fruit, lemons, The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to lettuce, mint, parsley, the Miniter for Health, representing peas, pineapple, rhubarb1 spring onions, tomatoes. the Minister for Lands; (b) Weight: Unlimited. (1) How many residential blocks in (c) Frequency of trips: Un- Bremer Bay have been thrown limited. open by the Lands Department In (2) (a) Types: All fruit and vege- recent years? tables. (2) On what dates were these auctions (b) Weight: 500 kilograms. held? (e) Frequency of trips: Un- (3) What prices did they realise? limited. (6) Westrall offers a twice per week (4) Have amenities been provided in overnight service for perishables to Bremner Bay since the last blocks Onowangerup. were sold? Acceptance days at Kewdale are (5) When is the next allocation ex- Mondays and Wednesdays with pected to be auctioned? closure at 1.30 p.m. Transit is per piggy-back truck on overnight (5) How many will be provided? freighter train to Katanning- (7) Will consideration be given to thence by road to Onowangerup ensure that some of the purchases arriving 8.45 a.m. Tuesdays and will be from people wishing to live Thursdays, full-time in the area, rather than (7) Any further changes regarding the hold the land for casual holiday carriage of fruit and vegetables purposes? will be considered in light of the present Southern Western Austra- The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied: lia Transport Study. (1) 26 lots since 1st January, 1973. (2) 24th March, 1973, and 21st Aug- POLICE ust, 1976. South Nedlad (3) Auction 24/3/73: The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON, to the Price Minister for Health, representing the Lot reallsed Minister for Police: 48 $810. (1) What is the police force staff 49 $850. establishment at South Hedland? 53 $800. (2) How many officers are currently 55 $850. on duty at South Hedland? 56 $825. 57 $840. (3) What is the area currently served 59 $875. by the South Hedland police sta- 60 $800. tion? 66 $675. (4) What is the Population within this 69 $750. area? 70 $625. 2750 [COUNCIL,]

Auction 21/8/76: (d) Lockridge Community Health Price Centre- Lot realised These premises are being 39 $1825. leased from the State 40 $1 150. Housing Commission. 41 $2575. 42 $2 650. (2) The Commonwealth Government 66 $1 925. grants to (a), (b) and (c) are 97 $2050. based on 15% of the capital cost. 98 $2000. The Commonwealth Government 100 $1'775. grant to the Lockridge Community 101 $1 675. Health Centre to cover lease is 102 $1800 90% of costs. 103 $1 825. 125 $2250. 126 $2325. 7. CAPE LE GRANDE NATIONAL 121 $2 300. PARK 128 $2325. Dieback Disease (4) None by Lands Department. The Hon. 1). J. WORDSWORTH, to (5) and (6) Not known. The Lands the Minister for Health, representing Department is currently consider- the Minister for Forests: ing the preparation of a design of subdivision over vacant Crown (1) Has die-back been found to exist land to provide further residential in the Cape le Grande National lots in this townsite. Park? (7) No. The Land Act precludes such (2) What flora is affected to date? discrimination. (3) Is It expected to spread to other indigenous flora in that area? HEALTH CENTRES (4) What introduced species found in Construction Costs domestic gardens and tree-breaks The Hon, R. F. CLAUGHTON, to the could be affected by this disease? Minister for Health: (5) Will this park be Placed under (1) Would the Minister provide the quarantine in a similar manner to information as requested for each sections of the State Forests? of the following health centres- (6) If not, what precautions does the (a) Geraldton Regional Health Government intend taking to stop Centre-the contract price; or control the spread of this dis- (b) South Hedland Health Centre ease? -the contract price; The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied: (c) Teaching Health Centre, (1) Yes. Claremont-the estimated cost of construction; and (2) Species of Banksia, Dryandra, Blackboys and Zamia Palms. (d) Lockridge Health Centre-the Other plant types may also be af- price at which the contract fected but they have not been was finalised? identified. (2) What were the Australian Gov- (3) No. All species likely to be af- erment grants for each of the fected will probably already be in- above centres? volved. The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied: (4) Many introduced, as well as in- (1) (a) Geraldton Regional Commu- digenous, species can be host to nity Health Centre- PhYtophthora cinnamomi. The Contract price $1 129'782 Department of National Develop- and subject to consultants' ment, Forestry and Timber Bureau fees, Departmental charges (now the CSIRO Division of and rise and fall clause. Forest Research) published a tech- (b) South Hedland Community nical paper in 1969 by J. F. TitZe Health Centre- and C. R. Palzer listing some '700 Contract price $1 125 580 species of host plants. A Copy Of and subject to consultants' this publication is available for fees, Departmental charges perusal at the Forests Department and rise and fall clause. head office library. (c) Teaching Health Centre, (5) and (6) No, but a Programme of Claremont- control of vehicles, hygiene in road Estimated cost of construc- maintenance Plus advice to the tion $1 200 000 and subject public via the Press and sign- to consultants' fees, Depart- boards will be instituted to try to mental charges and rise and inhibit the spread of the disease fall clause. within the park. [Tuesday, 5 October. 1976] 275175

QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE MINING IRRIGATION State Batteries: Correctionof Answer Dunhatm.RiveT Agreement: Lease THE HON. 0. C. MacKINNON (South- Acquisition West-Minister for Education) [4.47 p.m.]: The H-on. J. C. TOZER, to the Min- Mr President, I desire to Make a state- ister for Health, representing the ment regarding information supplied in Minister for Lands: an answer to a question. (1) Has the Dunham River pastoral The PRESIDENT:, The question is that lease in the East Kimberley been leave be granted. transferred to the Aboriginal Lands Trust? Question put and passed: leave (2) What financial consideration was granted. associated with this transfer The Hon. 0. C. MaeKINON: Through from the name of Goddard of you. Sir, I thank the House. In my reply Australia Pty. Ltd. to the trust? to question 4 on the 21st September. 1976. (3) Is the 34 000 acres which was to dealing with State batteries, I gave the be the area developed under stage House inaccurate information which 1 2 of the Irrigation (Dunham now wish to correct. The answer to part River) Agreement excluded from (1) should read "16" in lieu of "15". In such pastoral lease? In other answer (2) and (3), after '4Yarri ... 5 words, is this land still automatic- add the passage, "Sandstone...5. ally available f or agricultural development as and when required 1 apologise to the House for the error, or will It be necessary to resume which was due to an oversight. it from the Aboriginal Lands Trust if it is required for agri- cultural purposes at some future LAW REFORM COMMISSION REPORT time? Tabling: Ministerial Statement (4) Are there any insurmountable THE HON. I. G. MIEDCALF (Metro- problems associated with the politan-Attorney-Qeneral) (4.49 p.m.]: resumption of pastoral land If It Mr President, I seek leave of the House is held by the Aboriginal Lands to make a ministerial statement concern- Trust should it become a require- ing the tabling of a report. ment for the advancement of an agricultural project? The PRESIDENT: The question is that (5) Will farms 2, 9, and 10 in stage leave be granted. 1 of the Dunham project become Question put and passed; leave granted. part of the ]Dunham River past- oral lease held by the Aboriginal The Hon. IL G. MEDCALF: The report Lands Trust when they revert to of the Law Reform Commission which I Crown land as provided for in have tabled today is the most detailed current legislation? and wide-ranging account of the commis- sion's work produced since Its inception The Hon. N. E. BAXTER replied: in 1973. I thank the honourable member for providing notice of this ques- At a recent meeting with the commission tion to the Minister for Lands and its executive officer I asked them to this morning so that he could let re-arrange the order of priority of the me have the following answers- 32 projects currently before them to bring forward the completion of their (1) Yes. reports on several matters of particular (2) £170 000. concern. These included the review of the (3) The 34 000 acres referred to matter of bail, consideration of the need still form part of Dunham to establish a small debts court and the River pastoral lease and subject of appeals from administrative would have to be resumed if tribunals. required for agricultural I told the commissioners I would refer development, to them only matters on which I believed (4) No. the Government would be willing to con- (5) No. sider legislating. Some Governments have been known to BILLS (21: ASSEMBLY'S MESSAGES use such commissions as a kind of 'too Messages from the Assembly received bard' basket for controversial issues and aind read notifying that it had agreed to to refer these issues simply as a means the amendment made by the Council to of putting off legislative action. the following Bills- However, this in my view is a wrongful 1. Road Maintenance (Contribution) use of a law reform commission, waste- Act Axmendment Bill (No. 2). ful of the taxpayers' money and the 2. Racecourse Development Bill. commissioners' time. 2752 (COUNCIL]

This annual report shows that by the BILLS(2): THIRD READING 30th June this year 64 projects had been 1. Western Australian Meat Industry referred to the Law Reform Commission Authority Bill. of Western Australia and its predecessor, the Law Reform Committee, since the Bill read a third time, on motion by committee's formation in 1967, although the Hon. N. McNeill (Minister for two projects were withdrawn in that time. Justice), and passed. Although It is not in this report. I take 2. Child Welfare Act Amendment Bill this opportunity to inform the Parlia- (No. 2). ment that three more projects have been Bill read a third time, on motion by referred to the commission since the 30th the Hon. N. E. Baxter (Minister June. for Community Welfare), and passed. The committee and the commission have produced 39 working papers since 1967 and Invited Public and professional comment PSYCHOLOGISTS REGISTRATION upon those papers before preparing final BILL reports for submission to the Attorney- Second Reading General and to Parliament. As at the 30th June this year, reports had been THE HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central- completed on 38 projects. In three cases Minister for Health) [4.54 p.m.]: I move- the commission recommended that no That the Hill be now read a second change be made to existing law. Legisla- time. tion based on 12 of the other reports had The Bill is concerned with the identifica- been put to the Parliament by the 30th tion and regulation of persons who may June this year. hold themselves out to members of the community as experts in the knowledge I would remind the Council that in the and practice of psychology; and who may months since then the Government has seek to offer services to the public on the introduced legislation based on several basis of such expertise under the title of other Law Reform Commission reports, "Psychologist". including criminal injuries compensation The Bill does not set out to be a and the presentation of medical and Psychologists' practices Act; that is, it does technical evidence in court proceedings. not attempt to define a range of services More legislation based on commission that psychologists may uniquely be reports, including changes to the rules for expected to Perform to the exclusion of distribution of Intestate estates, will be other members of the community. It put before Parliament In this Session. recognises that many persons who in no way would claim to be psychologists, have I think it is appropriate for me to add legitimate functions and services to that the Government has recently legis- perform which are, or Include elements. lated on several other matters in the field of a psychological nature. Obvious of law reform, without reference to the examples are to be found in various duties commission. undertaken by doctors, teachers and For Instance, we acted expeditiously to ministers of religion. Less obvious per- close the gap In the right of appeal which haps, but no less legitimate, are the was brought to light by the Pitzer case supports which one friend gives another in July. in time of emotional crisis, or the pro- The amendments introduced to change spective employer who seeks to assess the the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, character of the prospective employee. District Court and Local Courts Is another With this in mind, no attempt has been example, made to seek a form of legislation which lays down exclusive functions for the in conclusion I should like to commend psychologist alone. Indeed to seek to do to members the importance of the work so would be a formidable if not fruitless of the Law Reform Commission and its and impossible task. staff. The commission occupies an Important role as the adviser to Govern- Hence the emphasis in this Hill is to ments and has in Its few short years of seek to protect the public by ensuring existence fully justified the confidence of that any person who wishes to hold members who approved its formation and himself out to be a professional psycholo- establishment. Particularly, I would like gist shall have acquired at least the to refer to the fact that you, Mr Presi- minimum standard of knowledge, training, dent, when Minister for Justice in the and experience as set out in the Bill, and Brand Government, made the first official will be registered by the Psychologists' recommendation for the formation of the Registration Hoard and so become Law Reform Committee, as it then was. accountable to the board for his profes- You must indeed be pleased with the sional conduct. results of the decision then taken and I As registered medical practitioners, min- do not doubt that the State has a great isters of religion and certain teachers may deal to gain from a continuance of the also lay claim to certain psychological ex- commission's research and industry. pertise, it is necessary to provide certain [Tuesday, 5 October, 1976] exemptions for them under the Act. Re- The board will have power to conduct gistered medical practitioners are, in the examinations in psychology for persons ordinary course of medical practice, ex- who are seeking to register as psycho- empt from the provisions of the Act. Mini- logists under the Act, and if satisfied may isters of religion are also exempt except register such persons. from those sections of the Act which re- During the first year following pro- late to the practice of hypnotism and the clamation of the Act, registration may be professional practice of psychology as ranted to persons who may not have an such. Teachers of prescribed educational approved educational qualification but who institutions may also be exempt under are able to satisfy the board that they conditions laid down by the Psychologists' have relevant practical experience, know- Registration Board. ledge and skill in psychology and have practised as psychologists for a period of Exemptions are also extended to stu- not less than two years. Members of the dents or persons working under the super- Australian Psychological Society who have vision of a registered psychologist under held membership for 12 months or more conditions stipulated by the board. The may also be eligible for registration. This Minister for Health mnay also, on the re- in effect, provides a "grandfather" clause commendation of the board, grant addi- to the Bill. tional exemptions as may be deemed com- After a lapse of one year from date of patible with the public interest. proclamation the board may register only those candidates who meet the examina- The Psychologists' Registration Board tion requirements of the board or hold will have direct responsibility to the Min- approved qualifications covering tour ister. It will be financially autonomous years of full academic training or Its and may appoint a registrar and other Part-time officers as may be necessary to conduct equivalent. the business of the board. It will be In addition, two years of approved prac- composed of five members, of whom three tical experience in the practice of shall be Psychologists, one a psychiatrist psychology is also required. These stan- The ap- dards have been taken from the standards and the fifth a legal practitioner. of the Australian Psychological Society, pointment of a legal practitioner is not which is the professional society of mandatory, however, as the State experi- Psychologists within Australia at the ences some difficulty in finding legal prac- present time- The society holds that four titioners who are willing to serve on Years' approved training Plus two years' statutory bodies. approved experience is essential for basic Consequently the Bill allows the ap- professional training in Australia today pointment of some other fifth person. and It sets these standards for full mem- Each member of the board shall nave aL bership of the society- deputy of like interest who may. stand In order that persons with the approved in, In the absence of the member. The academic qualifications but without ap- board shall have power to co-opt mem- Proved experience may gain such ex- bers and to form such committees as it perience, a form of provisional registrat- may deem necessary- tion has been Included whereby that experience may be gained under conditions The board shall have rights and powers which the board considers appropriate. as are considered essential in the per- Provision also exists for the temporary formance of its proper functions. These registration of persons who may not be include the authority to register persons able to furnish immediate proof of quali- whose qualifications are acceptable under fications and experience, but where there the Act; to investigate complaints and Is no reason to doubt that such proof will alleged offences; to impose the penalties be forthcoming in due course and where prescribed under the Act when the board delay in registration would cause hard- satisfies itself that a breach has been ship. Visiting persons of eminence may incurred: to make rules subject to the be given honorary temporary registration. approval of the Governor, for the regula- In addition to the functions of register- tion of the practice of registered psy- ing and regulating the practices of regis- chologists; to keep adequate records and tered psychologists, the board Is charged to enter into reciprocal arrangements with the responsibility of administering a with similar recognised bodies outside section concerned with offences relating the State. to the practice of hypnosis. This section has been Included because Provisions are included so that appeals of the evidence that has accumulated on may be determined by the Supreme Court the possible harmful effects of hypnosis against a decision of the board. when employed by persons who are The board is accountable to the Min- Inadequately trained and experienced. ister at all times and shall prepare a The Bill places no restrictions on the report of its operations annually for practice of hypnosis by registered medical presentation to Parliament. practitioners, dentists, and psychologists 2754 2764[COU3NCIL]l in the ordinary course of their professional Debate adjourned, on motion by the practice. Any other person who seeks to Hon. Grace Vaughan. practise hypnosis however is required to obtain a licence from the board as a "prescribed person" under the Act. CRIMINAL INJURIES Persons eligble to apply for licences (COMPENSATION) ACT as "Prescribed persons", are to Include AMENDMENT BILL those who, for a period of not less than Second Reading two Years immediately preceding the date of the Act, can show to the satisfaction of Order of the Day read for the resump- the board that they have derived their in- tion of the debate from the 22nd Sep- come principally from the practice of hyp- tember. nosis. The board is also authorised Question put and passed. cense the Practice of hypnosis by toother li- persons whom the board may consider Bill read a second time. eligible to practise, subject to such con- ditions as the board sees fit to impose. In&Committee, etc. It may well be asked why a Bill for the Bill passed through Committee without registration of psychologists should debate, reported without amendment, and include a section which restricts the prac- the report adopted. tice of hypnosis. The reasons for this are, firstly, that Third Reading there is a need to provide a form of Bill read a third time, on motion by protection to members of the community the Hon. I. G. Medcalf (Attorney-Gen- through the regulation of hypnotic eral), and passed. practices; secondly, to set up a separate Act and bcard for this single purpose would be unduly extravagant; thirdly, BETTING CONTROL ACT hypnotism is one subject matter included AMENDMENT BILL In the traditional study of psychology and a psychologists' registration board is well Second Reading equipped to deal with such matters; and Debate resumed from the 22nd Sep- fourthly, it is to be noted that the three tember. States of Australia which have so far registered psychologists-that is Victoria THE HON. S. J. DELLAR (Lower North) in 1965, Scuth Australia in 1974, and this [5.07 p.m.]: The Bill seeks to make two year Tasmania-have seen fit to include amendments to the Act. Personally I think sections for the control of the practice of the most Important one is to allow for hypnosis in their legislation in much the on-course bookmakers to operate at grey- same manner as it is included here. It hound race meetings throughout the State. is to be noted that the Bill provides for Of course at the moment we have only the making of such regulations as the one track established, but I am sure that Governor may consider necessary or with the introduction of the Bill other desirable for the proper administration clubs will be encouraged to introduce this of the Act. sport into their own areas. Finally, and by way of summary this The second provision concerns the re- Bill1 is not held out as an answer to structuring of the board. In the past the charlatanism or quackery. Such practices functions were taken over by the TAB, have always existed and will continue to the main aim at that time being to abolish exist under various guises and titles. The the then available off -course bookmaking Bill will however Preclude the use of the facilities, and have betting under the con- title "Psychologist" by persons who seek to trol of the TAB. The TAB also had other assume It without adsquate training and functions dealing with the licensing of supervised experience. bookmakers, and so on. However, under This Bill offers the public assurances the Bill before us these functions will be that persons who henceforth hold them- the work of a board similar to the Betting selves out to be registered psychologists Control Board we had previously and it will have had an intensive preparation will deal with the licensing of bookmakers. in recognised training institutions where with disputes, and with other matters. their knowledge and skill has been sub- it is important to note that when the ject to examination and appraisal and legislation to allow greyhound racing was has been found to be adequate. In ad- introduced into the State by Mr Stubbs. dition the public are assured that re- who was then Minister for Local Govern- gistered psychologists are accountable ment and the Chief Secretary, no provi- through a board which will regulate in sion was made for on-course bookmakers. the public interest by providing penalties It was felt that the on-course TAB facil- for contravention of the Act and regula- ities would cater for the needs of the tions. public. In my short and brief association I commend the Bill to the H-ouse. with the industry-including attendance [Tuesday. 5 October. 1976] 2755 at a few meetings in the Eastern States-- The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: I am talking I learned that unless on-course book- about the contents of the Bill, rather than makers are introduced, greyhound racing the rubbish which is coming from the will not prosper in this State. Minister. I would like to say what I have The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Did you in mind because I am sure members do say that when we were debating the grey- not want to stay here all night. How- hound Bill? ever, if they do, I do not mind because I do not have to go back to my province The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: I do not think for a fortnight. I said anything about it at the time. The PRESIDENT: I will afford the The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: I just won- honourable member whatever protection I dered, because that was a condition of the can. legislation being accepted. The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: I thank you, The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: That is right. Mr President, but I can assure You I can I am not criticising anyone. I am ex- handle this mob. plaining what occurred at the time. Per- The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: You are haps we did not introduce on-course book- not making a very good job of it. makers at that time because some of the The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: When the conservatives here would have thrown the Tonkin Government introduced greyhound whole project out. Now the conservatives racing into the State it was not consid- are introducing legislation to provide for ered advisable to make provision for on-course bookmakers, and I thank them on-course bookmakers. Because of the for doing it. It is about time they did attitude of Mr Wordsworth and a few something sensible, but I suppose the hon- others, the legislation would not have been curable member will vote against it. successful as the conservatives would have I am saying that the industry has com- knocked it back. Having got over the first menced in this State and the facilities at hurdle we now have greyhound racing and Cannington are equal to any in Australia. the Bill before us provides for on-course However, I know that had it not been bookmakers which will make the sport for the foresight of the Tonkin Labor Gov- much more attractive to those who parti - ernment, through the efforts of Mr Stubbs cipate in it and it will allow the industry who was Minister at the time, we would to expand. After all it is an industry as have had no greyhound racing in this was revealed by figures in another place State. concerning the turnover in Tasmania for The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: And look trotting and gallop racing. at the thanks the Labor Party have I support the legislation and I am sure handed out to him recently. members opposite who may not have accepted it in 1972 will be Prepared to The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: Well of course accept it now, even though they may do it is possible for anyone to do anything, so with reservations. I am sure Mr if he is in a position to do whatever he Wordsworth will say he accepts it because likes, and the honourable member knows it was introduced by his Government. what I mean by that. The Hon. Olive Griffiths: I am afraid I THE HON. G. W. BERRY (Lower don't. North) [5.14 p.m.]: In the first place the Bill seeks to place betting under the con- The Hon. 0. E. Masters: How would you trol of a Betting Control Board instead know? of the TAB. I cannot visualise the need The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: If Mr Masters for this. Why should we have a repre- had been here between 1971 and 1974 he sentative of greyhound racing on a differ- would know what I am talking about., ent board instead of continuing as at The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: He will be Present? I cannot see any reason for here between 1977 and 1980. our having a Betting Control Board in respect of on-course bookmakers for rac- The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: He has a lug, trotting, and, now, greyhound racing. rough chance because he has to be here It would be just another board-one of does he not? the many we establish. No doubt its mem- The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: That is bers will be paid for the time involved. not the same chance you are giving Mr The other Point I wish to raise is that Stubbs. Incidentally is this Mr Stubbs very little explanation is given as to why you are talking about the same one in on-course bookmakers are necessary at respect of whom applications have been greyhound meetings. his head? called over In his speech the Minister said- The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: I do not know The introduction of bookmakers for what that has to do with greyhound rac- greyhound racing makes it advisable ing. that the interests of greyhound rac- The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: I am try- ing are represented on the body that ing to determine about which Mr Stubbs is to be responsible for the licensing you are speaking. and control of their bookmakers. 2756 2756[COUNCIL] I do not see any reason stated in the Min- The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: I daresay ister's speech for on-course bookmakers the Minister would have considered it to being given facilities to operate at grey- be obvious when it was introduced, We are hound race meetings. Further in his asked to judge matters in fairness, as speech the Minister said- legislators, and if the situation that Whilst generally bookmakers at race existed before was unfair we should meetings for galloping horses have recognise it was not necessary for the been permitted to bet only on races Minister to give those reasons. Another for galloping horses, and bookmakers aspect is that it is necessary to have at trotting meetings have been per- bookmakers to keep the sport of dog racing mitted to bet only on races for trot- buoyant in Western Australia. ting horses, there have been some We were faced with the position of a occasions in the past where trotting track having been established at Canning- bookmakers operating at country ton Central and up till this point It has daylight meetings have been given not been a financial success. There are permission to bet on galloping races many reasons for this, one of which Is held on the same day at some other that there was very high capital input; racecourse. far too high for the early states of the sport. The facility provided Is of a very This probably refers to morning and after- high standard and while this is appreci- noon meetings. Now it seems necessary ated by some of the patrons, the end for us to make a similar provision for result is that the facility provided at bookmakers operating on the course at Cannington has been a financial disaster, greyhound race meetings. I feel that if particularly in its early stages. a licence is granted to a bookmaker to one of the reasons for its having run operate, he should be permitted to operate down financially is that bookmakers were on any course. not operating at the track. The followers After all is said and done, a bookmaker of the sport were denied the facility of is a bookmaker, and I can see no reason on-course bookmakers and accordingly the at all for his not being permitted to oper- professionals In the sport were not able to ate in this manner. I did not support the get prices for the dogs which they hap- legislation for the establishment of grey- pened to be following and on which they hound racing, and I am not now more con- were betting- This led to several complica- vinced that this legislation is in the in- tions. I ask members to bear with me, terests of greyhound racing in this State. because while this may appear to be unrelated to the matter before us, it is THE MON. W. R1. WITHERS (North) important that it be understood. [5.18 p.m.3: My colleague Mr Berry has As the situation exists at the moment, asked to be given the reasons for book- we have only one race track which means makers now being brought onto the that it is necessary for a. dog to win a racecourse at greyhound race meetings. race or to be placed in a race before the There are several reasons for this, the owner of that dog can obtain nomination first of which I should have thought would for the race meeting to be held the fol- be fairly obvious. To my way of thinking lowing week. If the dog does not win or if we have legislation which recognises run a place, the trainer or owner has to that gambling Is right on any horse racing wait at least six weeks before that dog can course and that bookmakers are allowed again race on the track. onto the racec-ourse-apart from which As Is the case with horses, dogs have there is also the TAB on the racecourse their followers. Strangely enough, there are -then It is only fair that the bookmakers usually more followers per dog than there and the TAB should be allowed to be are followers per horse, and I will explain represented on all those racecourses where the reason for this. legal betting is permitted to be conducted. The H-on. Clive Griffiths: You would For this reason it has always Puzzled have thought it would be the other way me why legislation was brought down around. requesting Parliament to consider the The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: One would legaising of a particular sport at which have thought so, particularly in the case gambling is recognised and at which of those who happen to be gardeners!I But bookmakers were not allowed to operate, that is not the situation as It relates to while in the same State bookmakers were dogs. Usually a dog is trained by a family. allowed on other courses--such as those whereas a horse Is generally trained by a associated with trotting and horse racing professional trainer and, generally speak- -and where the TAB operated- That is ing. the horse In question Is known only one reason for legislation being Introduced: to the trainer and his family as a likeable to allow for all such sports to be fairly animal; they generally regard it as a pet. treated-and I now refer to trotting, horse racing, and greyhound With a dog, however, it is quite different. racing. A dog is generally brought up and trained The Hon, 0. W. Berry: That argument by the entire family. It Is trained and 'was not used when the measure was looked after by the trainer and his spouse. introduced. and also by the trainer's children. Apart [Tesday, 5 October, 19761 275? from this, the friends of the trainer's The Hon. T. 0. Perry: But other dogs children also have an interest in the dog. will take their place. The Hon. R. Thompson: And the dog The Eon. W. R. WITHERS: If nomi- loves the family cat. nations can be accepted more regularly, and within a lesser period than six weeks, The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: And some- more people will attend greyhound race times the family canary. The friends of the trainer's children generally visit the meetings. trainer's home to have a look at the racing The Han. D. J. Wordsworth: Perhaps dog he happens to be training. The dog the Minister will tell us something about Is usually given a name such as Joe, which racing frogs before long. is known to all the children in the street The Hon. W. Rt. WITHERS: I have ex- -they know the dog by that name; they plained in rather a disjointed manner know he Is going to race on Saturday why it is necessary to have bookmakers night and they take an interest in the on the course. This is very necessary dog, and tell their Parents that Joe will if Professionals are to be encouraged to be racing on Saturday night. attend the sport. I will now explain why This is where dogs and their training it is necessary to have bookmakers as this are different from horses. Horses do not relates to nominations being accepted only have the same following. A horse is gen- every six weeks. erally known to only its immediate con- The Hen. Clive Griffiths: But If a dog nections and those who may follow the did not run first, second or third, you horse; it Is possible that people may back would not be interested in seeing a book- the horse because they like the Jockey maker. who is riding it, or they may like the The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: That is name of the horse. not so. Quite often an owner might The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: You think nominate his dog and find the dog is out it is a good thing that children should of his class. If there were more frequent be encouraged in this? nominations there would be a greater pos- sibility for the dog to enter a race In The I-on. W. R. WITHERS: I do. which he is not outclassed. It would then Usually those children who take notice be Possible for an owner or others to bene- of greyhounds grow up into fine upstand- fit from a bookmaker. ing citizens. People in other areas also have been The Hon. S. J. Dellar: You are talking Interested in setting up race tracks for about yourself again. dogs, but they have not done so because When the they are waiting to see whether or not The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: the course children tell their parents that Joe will at Cannington Central is a be racing on Saturday night, more often success. Those in other areas have not than not the parents will say, "Let us been able to convince their local shires and other sporting clubs that another go to the dogs and see Joe run". So it track would be a good thing. They have is possible that a third of the people on not been able to do this because every- the street will go to the races that even- body is waiting to see whether Cannlngton ing. What I am saying may appear to Central is a success. be rather disjointed, but I am trying to explain the position. If we allowed the present position to continue Cannington Central would col- The Hon. D). J. Wordsworth: You say lapse and dog racing would fade out of that a child can reach up to a bookmaker. the Picture. Now that bookmakers are but not to the window of the tote? to be allowed onto the dog racing track The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: That is not at Cannington Central we will find that so. What I am saying is that because in a year or so Cannington Central will dogs can only nominate if they win or begin to improve; its financial losses will run a place- decrease and it will receive more patron- age at the course; because of this and The Hon. S. J. Dellar: How can a dog other factors other race tracks will be write out an application for nomination? set up in Western Australia. The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: What I When that takes place, if a person Is mean is that the owner of the dog can not able to obtain nomination for his seek nomination only if his dog wins or dog at Cannlngton Central he will be able runs a place. If the dog does not run a to do so at some other track. If there place it means the owner will have to are two other tracks apart from Can- wait six weeks before he can again race nington Central it is Possible that people the dog. If nominations are accepted only will be able to obtain nominations for every six weeks, and if it Is not possible their dogs every fortnight, instead of for the owner to nominate his dog we every six weeks which is the case at the will have less people attending these moment, and accordingly the sport will meetings. progress. 2758 2758(COUIL~.]

The Hon. S. J. Dellar: Are you antici- The Hon. 0. E. Masters: I would think pating that this Hill will go through? it keeps the weight down as well. The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: I certainly The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: Is the hope so. honourable member suggesting that I need The Hon. S. J. Dellar: So do 1. this? The Hon. 0. E. Masters: I was not The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: I hope the suggesting that you need a dog. Bill is passed because if it is not it will mean that those who vote against it are The Hon. W. H. WITHERS: An Opposi- agreeing that things should not be equit- tion member mentioned that this is a able and that they do not agree with recognised industry and that statement is fairness. Everyone should at least realise true. I1 think it was Mr Dans. who made that this Bill is fair; it means we recog- this comment. nise a betting facility that is Government The Hon. D. K. Dans: No. owned as well as a betting facility which The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: Our Gov- comes under a free enterprise system. Of course, my party supports a free enterprise ernment recognises that this Is an system. industry. The Hon. S. J. Dellar: I am the only One might ask why this sport will spread, and there are several reasons for one who had a chance to Say anything. this. People who follow greyhounds The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: Greyhound actively-and I mean that in the literal racing is a very big industry in New sense, that they follow a greyhound when South Wales. I have here two reference it is walking on a leash-are usually very papers; the first one is entitled, "An healthy people because they get a great economic valuation of the greyhound deal of exercise. We find that the families racing industry in Australia", and it was of greyhound owners become involved as compiled in 1969 for the Commonwealth well, and it is not uncommon to see a Greyhound Association. The other refer- husband and wife out walking one or two ence Paper is titled, "An economic analysis greyhounds, or perhaps father, mother, of the racing industry in New South and the children out walking greyhounds. Wales, 1975". In this second paper we We all know that walking is very good see that the greyhound industry in New for the health. Also, when money is being South Wales contributed something like expended from the family budget for the $14.3 million of the gross national product. training of greyhounds, it is not being We see also that the TAB income from the spent in other avenues. This can be a greyhound industry in New South Wales good thing, as long as the family does represented 32 per cent of the total TAB budget for training greyhounds, and it turnover for all sports in that State. can keep people away from the hotels if The Hon. G. W. Berry: How much was they have been drinking from sheer bore- it? dom. Everyone here recognises that drink- Ing can be a socially acceptable pastime. The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: I am sorry, I did not write down that figure. I am The Hon. D. K. Deans: And a very quoting here from my notes but anyone pleasurable one too. could refer to these papers to obtain the The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: It is a great figures. pity that when people drink from sheer This small industry is important to boredom their health deteriorates, and Western Australia at this time. There they are potential alcoholics. However, are over 3 000 greyhounds in this State at people who become greyhound trainers the moment and the dogs consume ap- spend a great deal of time with their dogs proximately $1 million-worth of food per and they find that their health improves. annum. The dogs consume '730 tonnes of The Hon. S. J. Dellar: Tell my wife that meat alone. and she may buy me a greyhound. The Hon. D. K. Dans: Is that each dog? The Hon. 0. E. Masters: All potential The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: Not each alcoholics should be issued with a grey- dog, but 3 000 dogs all chomping together. hound! I have displayed an interest in greyhounds since I was a boy, but I have had a particu- The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: As far back lar as I can remember I have been associated interest in them since I became a with greyhounds, and honestly I cannot legislator for the province I represent. remember an active greyhound trainer The Hon. S. J. Dellar: That went to the who was also an alcoholic. People who dogs in 1971. have been drinking heavily usually cut The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: Members down their alcohol intake when they be- will be aware that in some of the isolated come involved with their dogs. areas of Western Australia there are race- The Hon. S. 3. Dellar: You will have tracks at which two-day meetings are the Jockeys, trainers, and owners of race- held once a Year. At some country tracks horses after you. two-day meetings are held twice a year. [Tuesday. 5 October, 1976] 2759

The Hon. S. J. Dellar: Things are better THE HON. DI. K. DANS (South Metro- in the Lower North Province. politan-Leader of the Opposition) [5.40 p.m.): I did not intend to speak to this The Hon. W. R. WITHERS: Yes, the Bill, but after listening to Mr Withers, Lower North Province is closer to another I have come to the conclusion that a dog form of civilisation. is a dog for all that. I support the Bill, With these racetracks where there is and I support the Introduction of book- limited racing throughout the year, there makers to greyhound racing. However, I are also limited facilities. This makes would like to make a few comments, sense because if there is to be a race meet- because it is amazing to me that it is only ing only once a year, there is only limited in Australia and the United Kingdom that money coming in from the patrons to pro- racing generally needs the support of on- vide facilities. So generally in the north course bookmakers. we find that the racetracks are graded The Hon. J7. Heitman: Also Ireland. ovals of earth with bush timber fences around part of the track. If the people The Hon. D. K. DM48: Mr Heitman are lucky, there is also a whitewashed mentioned Ireland, and I admit that I corrugated building with very crude was thinking of Ireland as part of the facilities. Such a set-up is reasonable when United Kingdom. 01 course, that is a a meeting is held only once a year, and mistake. in fact, it is quite fun to attend such a Racing in all its forms flourishes as a meeting. However, as more and more large industry in all Parts of the world people move into the north, they want without the support of on-course book- slightly better facilities. Because of the makers. in 1972, when the Bill to set small number of patrons they have no up greyhound racing in Western Australia hope of obtaining facilities such as those wvas introduced, all members of this available in the city. However, if we can Chamber were subjected to a great deal find some other sport which can be con- of lobbying frcm all kinds of people- ducted more regularly on these racetracks, some of whom did not appear to be as more money will be available for better good as they should have been. We have facilities. Of course, a greyhound track now reached the stage where we are told that if Cannington Central is to be a could be graded alongside the racetrack, success and if greyhounds are to be raced with both tracks becoming tangential to on other tracks as well, the support of each other opposite the grandstand. If on-course bookmakers is necessary. We such a course were followed, races could be have yet to see that, although X. must held more regularly and more income remind the House that I am supporting would be derived from them. Therefore. the facilities could be developed for the the Hill. patrons of both greyhound and horse rac- I do not oppose greyhound racing, but ing. as I said in 1972 when the earlier legisla- Another factor is that the introduction tion was introduced, I am not a fan of of on-course bookmakers will allow the this sport. At that time one of the argu- setting up of a circuit of bookmakers ments advanced in support of the measure travelling to the north on a more regular -and I may have advanced it myself- basis than that operating on remote race- was that greyhound racing would bring tracks at present. Although it is very another form of relaxation and sport to expensive to transport a horse one does remote and country areas. We were told not need a complicated float to transport it would be fairly simple to set up grey- a dog from one point to the next. A hound racing tracks. This simply has not utility happened. It is all very well to say that or a panel van is quite suitable to People in country areas are watching and carry the animal. watn'i to see what happens. Mr Withers The I-on. S. J7. Dellar: It must be suit- mentioned the biggest problem connected ably ventilated. with greyhcund racing- in Western Aust- raliai, and it is not the lack of on-course The Hon. WV.R. WITHERS: Yes, such bookmakers, but rather the fact that there vehicles must be suitably ventilated. In has been one track only, People wishing to New South Wales, Victoria, and Tas- race their greyhounds sometimes have to mania, airline companies have developed wait from six to eight weeks to get P. start special lightweight kennels so that the because the spart hais contracted into that dogs can be flown from point to point at ore arca. a relatively low cost. This would allow country towns to hold fairly reg-ular grey- I agree that in the first instance probobly too much money was put into hound racing events. tie development of Cannington Central, I am very pleased that the Government end :his is the reason that we have not has brought this Hill forward to allow some seen the establishment of racetracks in fairness to the industry. I am pleased the North Province, the Lower North Pro- the Government has recognised the need vices, or 4n some of ihe c'untry towns in for bookmakers at greyhound racetracks. the acuh-west. I have seern greyhound and I will let my colleagues comment on racing in other parts of t-c world, and other parts of the measure. inded, in other parts of Australia, and 2760 2760COUNCIL] nowhere have I seen facilities such as we that, as I understand it. several book- have at Cannington Central. In fact, as makers did operate at those races, and Mr Withers probably knows, dogs were People were able to invest sixpence or one once on the Wollongong Oval on one night shilling on the races. while on the next day rugby was played The Hon. N. McNeill: This Bill alone on it. I am not going into details about how many children follow dogs and how Is not meant to be the saviour of grey- many children follow horses, but I would hound racing. like to say that I hope this amending The Hon. D. K. DANS: I take the point Bill Is a success. made by the Minister; I understand and I would rather see not only a Bill to appreciate his interjection, because it is amend the Betting Control Act but also precisely the point I have been making. a Bill which, in effect, said, "We are The Government plans to allow book- going to ensure beyond a shadow of a makers to operate at Cannington Central, doubt that, having established greyhound and we hope it will engender an expan- racing in this State, and having received sion of the sport into country centres and guarantees from certain country centres remote areas so that people may have or remote areas, similar tracks will be in- access to this form of relaxation. The only stalled throughout the State." way this will occur is by the enterprise of the people in those areas, if they seri- What better place to put this into opera- ously desire to introduce dog racing in tion than in the North Province, where their areas. I do not think we should ex- people react In all kinds of ways to all pect the Government to provide financial kinds of situations from sheer boredom? assistance to every area which wants to This would provide them with an outlet. establish a greyhound racing track. How- I do not know how dogs perform in sub- ever, I only hope this Bill will encourage tropical or tropical conditions. However, people to establish such facilities by them- horses race in Singapore and other parts selves. of the world with similar climatic condi- tions; therefore I assume the dogs would The Hon. N. McNeill: Or to put it an- readily acclimatise themselves. other way, unless there are on-course I support the Bill, but I am not con- bookmakers there will be less likelihood vinced that simply by having 10 or 15 of having country tracks established. on-course bookmakers at the Cannington The Hon. D. K. DANS: I agree with the greyhound track there will be a prolifera- Minister's interjection, and with those re- tion of dog-racing venues throughout the marks I support the Bill. State. I hope this will be the case, but nothing which has been said by Mr THE HON. I. G. PRATT (Lower West) Withers or anyone else has convinced mec (5.49 p.m.]: In expressing my support for this will occur. I still do not know how the Bill, I must say that I am consider- on-course bookmakers will help bring ably saddened by the lightheartedness about such a situation. with which this Hill has been treated not I am also still perplexed that only Aus- only by People within this House but also tralia, England, and Ireland require the by the community at large. It is not an assistance of on-course bookmakers to en- earth-shattering Bill, but it is a significant able patrons to enjoy racing. Perhaps this piece of legislation to people who are is a tradition with us. I admit I like vitally Interested in dog racing, and I be- going to the races occasionally, and I do lieve such People deserve to be treated not like going to the races when I can- with dignity and consideration by the rest not hear the roar of the ring or see the of the community. I do not think their colour bookmakers inject into the sport. aspirations should be made a point of Perhaps that is why we have on-course mirth, because to them this is a very bookmakers. serious business. If the conclusion I have drawn is a This Bill has been brought before us fact, bookmakers may indeed attract more at the request of the people involved in people to Cannington Central. However, dog racing; they feel it will be of assist- I sincerely hope we will see other tracks ance to the sport. I mut admit that established, because it is my firm belief until recently, I had not taken much in- this Is the only way greyhound racing terest in greyhound racing: it did not mat- will be a success in this State. If other ter to me whether or not there were on- tracks are not established quickly, I am course bookmakers at the greyhound track. concerned that the sport may die on the In fact, I have never attended a grey- vine. As you would remember, Mr Presi- hound race, although I may do so in the dent, this Is not the first attempt to in- future. troduce dog racing in Western Australia. In my electorate there is a considerable When I was a very young boy in Kal- number of People actively interested in goorlie, whippets were raced regularly be- dog racing and over the past few months hind the Kalgoorlie trotting track. I think I have received representations from those that died a natural death, despite the fact people and have learned a bit about dog [Tuesday. 5 October, 1978]676 2761

racing; I understand now why they feel The Hon. 1. 0. PRATIT: Possibly it is; they have a need for on-course book- but it could also be lower if one was makers, and I cannot find fault with the bucked off a horse. I am interested in reasons they have advanced. These people the personal approach in matters such as say that without on-course bookmakers, this. I am not concerned as to whether greyhound meetings lack the colour and or not a homse looks more impressive than activity one finds at trotting and horse a dog but rather that the people involved racing meetings. When one thinks about in both sports should be treated with the that statement, it is hard to fault; on- same consideration, and viewed equally by course bookmakers certainly do add colour the law. to race meetings. Many People could not be involved in They also claim that, as a result of horse racing if they wanted to, due to lack not having on-course bookmakers, they of finance, space, or facilities. But let us do not attract the type of person who face it: Many people do not want to be- likes to pit himself against the book- come involved in horse racing simply be- maker. Betting on the tote is a very imn- cause they are not interested in horses personal activity, whereas, very often, they are interested in The Hon. D. K. Dans: So are some their dogs. I feel this Bill will give the bookies ! people interested in dogs equality of op- The Hon. I. Q. PRATT': I would agree portunity and, as a Liberal, I believe this with the Leader of the Opposition that is something which should be considered. some bookies probably are very imper- I believe In equality of opportunity, and sonal. However, the person who is mak- the person who chooses to pursue a certain ing the bet is very Personal; often he interest, such as dog racing, should be feels he is pitting himself against the allowed to do so. bookmaker and it becomes a personal I know that at present, the law does man-to-man confrontation. I am told not stop him, but these people genuinely that such a person would be attracted to believe that for their sport to continue. dog racing if there were on-course book- they must have bookmakers operating at makers. Again, I cannot fault this rea- the course. They may be right or wrong: soning. the legislation may be the salvation they The Hon. 0. W. Berry: They did not think it will be, or it may not. lack it when the Bill was first introduced. In the past, a rather paternalistic atti- The Hon. 1. 0. PRATT: That interjec- tude has been adopted towards the dog tion is easily answered by saying, "Did racing fraternity- It has been considered they have it?" Uf they did not have it, -perhaps based on figures-that grey- they must have lacked it. hound racing would do better financially Another reason advanced In support of out of the TAB than from on-course book- on-course bookmakers Is that the present makers. However, I repeat that these system makes it very awkward for an People believe the legislation will assist owner who has a well prepared dog which their industry. The Government is giving Is ready to win, because he must rely on them a chance to find out whether this the tote for an adequate return on his will be the Case. After this Bill is passed wager. If he had the option of betting and becomes an Act, it will be up to them with an on-course bookmaker, hie could to prove their forecasts were correct. r bet at predetermined odds, rather than believe they should be given the chance simply having to rely on the eventual to find out for themselves. price paid out by the tote. Again, I find this argument hard to fault: It seems to THE HON. CLIVE GRIFFITHS (South- be logical common sense- East metropolitan) [5.58 p.mi-l: I should Horse racing has long been looked upon like to say a few words in the debate on as the sport of kings and it is rather this Bill, particularly in view of the fact unfortunate that this attitude towards that Cannington Central is located in my horse racing has led to an unhealthy at- electorate. At the out-set, I want to say I titude towards dog racing, and those in- support the Bill. However, I hark back volved in the sport. These people are to the days when we debated the original worthy of being treated with dignity, and legislation introduced by Mr Stubbs, to we should accept they have a right to establish greyhound racing. At the time, I partake to the full in their sport, just a was not terribly enthusiastic about sup- do people who race horses. porting such a measure because, frankly, The physical difference between a horse I did not believe there was a great need and a dog is so tremendous that one tends for the introduction of greyhound racing in to think of horse racing as something Western Australia. It seemed to me we impressive and, therefore, perhaps better Were providing for another industry which and on a higher level than dog racing. would compete with existing industries and that the capacity of people in Western The Hon. S. J. Dellar: It Is higher if Australia to support another facility such you get on a horse. as this would be limited. 2762 (COUNCIL]

However, we were assured by the all around it, and consequently the use numerous people interested in the sport of and the need for its showground was that this would not be the case. You will becoming less and less apparent. The recall, Mr President, that during the days society was looking for some diversification and weeks the original legislation was to enable it to continue to operate the being debated the galleries were full of all showground. sorts of people who suddenly were inter- The introduction of greyhound racing ested in the welfare of the members of at Cannington Central thus turned out to Parliament of the day, and showed a great be another indirect advantage. Whilst desire to enter into deep discussions with initially I had some reservations about them on all sorts of subjects, including the success of the greyhound racing greyhounds. However, it is interesting industry. I came to the conclusion sub- that since we have been debating this Bill sequently that the facility at Cannington I have not noticed anybody from the Central would benefit the district, over industry showing any concern about and above the benefit resulting from the whether or not the Bill will be passed. I direct involvement of the people engaged make those comments only in passing. in greyhound racing. To return to the point I was making, I The fact that Cannington Central has was not at all enthusiastic about the Bill. not been able to operate as an economic However, we were assured by the people proposition has caused a great deal of interested in the sport that the industry concern to many people. Obviously It could survive and, subsequently, after caused concern to the people engaged in representations had been made to me by the industry, but it also caused concern the various bodies, I decided to support to others. the Bill. I was not convinced, but I believed we should at least give those There wvas a need to service the loans people the opportunity to put into practice which financed the project. The people their Particular sport. involved came to the conclusion that they had to do something to prevent the I was also persuaded by the assurances venture from going b~ankrupt. So, they given at the time that the industry would approached the Government and requested be able to survive without the necessity that greyhound racing be conducted cn, to introduce on-course bookmakers. This I think, Saturday nights instead of Thurs- was another reason I decided to support day nig -hts. I am looking around the the measure; namely, that it would not Chamber for some member to nod his introduce another area in which book- head, because I am not sure whether rac- makers could operate. As a result ing was to be changed to Friday or of the passing of that legislation, we Saturday nights. I am not familiar with saw the building of the Cannington the facts, as I do not attend greyhound Central greyhound racing facility. A racing regularly, although I have been to tremendous amount of money was invested greyhound race meetings a couple of times. In the fantastic facility at Cannington Central. I understand from People who Greyhound racing was changed to profess to know something about grey- Saturday nights because the people hound racing that this is the finest grey- involved made an attempt to stem the hound racing facility In Australia, if not flow of the losses encountered by the In the southern hemisphere. In any case, industry. The people connected with the it is an excellent facility. industry asked the Government for other Because the establishment of this assistance, and the Government was able facility provided work for a large number to grant that. Those people were very of people at the time, it did some good grateful for that assistance. for the community. We cannot always Whilst the change to Saturday nights measure the benefits of a project by the was of some advantage to the industry, direct returns from it. Indeed, we should it certainly was not sufficient to stem the take into consideration some of the flow of the losses. So, the situation which indirect benefits that are derived. many of us foresaw initially, and which The estimate for the construction of became more evident recently, has arisen. the facility at Cannington Central varied I refer to the request for the introduction from time to time, because it took longer of bookmakers. I am sure that everyone to build than was anticipated, and as a in this House is aware this request has result the escalation in costs Increased come forward, and as a result of the the estimate. I understand that the figure approach to the Government we have was about $1.5 million for the construc- the Bill before us. tion of this facility. sitting suspended front 6.05 to 7.30 p.m. That provided a great deal of work for the People engaged in the building The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITHS: Prior to industry, which at the time was feeling the tea suspension I mentioned that the the effects of a downturn. The Cannlngton proposal now before us for the introduc- Agricultural Society which had been tion of bookmakers at Cannlngton Central established there for many years was is the result of approaches made b5- confronted with the extension of suburbia people interested in greyhound racing. EMesday, 5 October. 1976]

I am not sure that the ills of grey- I am not suggesting that an attendance hound racing wrnl be solved by the intro- of 15 000 people at each meeting would duction of bookmakers at the course and not be highly Profitable. Judging by the this opinion has been expressed by other attendances at trotting and racing meet- speakers. The only way-the principal ings, I imagine the attendances at grey- way-for Cannington Central to in- hound racing meetings would need to be crease its income is for it to increase its approximately 6 000 or 7 000 people in Patronage at the greyhound racing events. order to make it a profitable venture. For that reason, it is necessary for those The H-on. 0. W. Berry: How many interested to encourage more people to attend now? attend greyhound racing. The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: I do not It will be recalled that prior to the in- know, but I believe the attendance is only troduction of greyhound racing there was about 2 000. However, I do not believe the considerable publicity in the media. Grey- introduction of bookmakers to greyhound hound racing was hailed as a brand racing will make a sufficient difference in spanking new sport which would provide attendances to overcome the leeway. I entertainment and enjoyment for thous- agree the introduction of bookmakers will ands of People who would otherwise not probably make up some of the leeway. be able to afford to participate in a sport. In general, it was expected that a tre- Someone asked what difference it would mendous number of patrons would attend make to have bookmakers on the course, greyhound racing. I believe that attend- and what influence they would have on ance on the first night was free. people attending the meetings. Book- makers cater for gamblers. Incidentally, The Hon. N. E. Baxter: Was that the I am not a gambler but I do not mind reason you attended? other people having the opportunity to The Hon. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: As a gamble. I am not saying I would not be matter of fact, it was one of the reasons. prepared to gamble if I went to a grey- The Hon. S. J. Dellar: You are re- hound racing meeting; I would probably nowned for honesty, so why not admit it? put a couple of dollars on a dog. Although normally I am not a gambler, I am not The Hon. CLIVE GRIFFITHS: I did.* against gambling. The point I am getting The Hon. S. J. Dellar: Not very loudly. at is that the average Australian gambler The H-on. OLIVE GRIFFITHS: Loud wants to know what return he will get enough for my comment to be recorded from a bet. by Hansard. I did not attend the first The true gamblers will not attend grey- meeting simply because it was free, but hound racing meetings because they are because I received an invitation from not able to know, in advance, what return those involved with greyhound racing. I they will receive from their bets. The suppose a similar invitation was extended sorb of people who require bookmakers to to many other people, but the racing com- induce them to attend racing meetings are plex happens to be in my province so I the sort of people who bet on trots, races, assume my invitation had something to or blow flys crawling up a wall. I do do with that. not make that statement with any dis- The point I am trying to make is that respect to the people who gamble: I am after several months of intensive publicity, simply pointing out what attraction book- and the fact that the entrance was free makers will have with regard to greyhound on the first night, a total of approximately racing. 15000 People attended the meeting. After The introduction of bookmakers to grey- probably 12 months of intensive cam- hound racing will attract those gamblers paigning, lobbying, and publicity-and who want to know what their return will allowing free entrance at the first meeting be when they make a bet. Indeed, the -the attendance was 15 000 men, women, owners referred to by Mr Withers also and children. want to know what their return will be. I immediately gained the Impression They want to know that if they invest that perhaps greyhound racing would not $100 on their dogs they will get a certain be as popular as we members of Parlia- return, whatever the odds might he. menit were led to believe it would be. I The present situation is that the more realise that some people would not have a person invests on a greyhound race the attended on the opening night because less the return. A patron is able to cal- of the expected crowd. However, sub- culate roughly from the totalisator baro- sequent racing events have not Proved meter, but the more money he invests the that to be the situation. I understand that less will be his return. The average prior to the changing of the night from gambler in the community is not prepared Thursday to Saturday, attendances were to accept that means of gambling, and he down to as low as 1 000 people on some will patronise some other activity. They occasions, and maybe even less. So, in are a different group of people and they order to make greyhound racing a viable will not be induced to go to greyhound proposition it will be necessary to increase racing unless they have the facilities of its Patronage considerably. bookmakers on the course. That is the 2764 [COUNCIL] essential attraction those people are look- THE BON. R. H. C. STUBBS (South- ing for. The bookmakers add same glamour, East) ('7.46 p.m.l: At the outset I wish to and some activity and colour to the Pro- say I also support the Bill. it will allow ceedings, but that is only a minor con- betting by bookmakers and I think it sideration. will give the sport the shot in the arm which it badly needs. It will be welcomed The Hon, G. W. Berry: But the gam- by the industry, by the Betting Control blers are in the minority: they will not Board, and by the public who keep the increase the crowd greatly. sport going. The Hon. CLIVE OGRIFFITHS: That is I rise to my feet to relate my experience. the point I am making. I agree with what It has been said that when we were in Mr Dans said earlier; I have grave doubts Government we did not legislate for whether the provision of licensed book- bookmakers because such legislation would makers at greyhound racing meetings will not have passed through this House. That attract a sufficient number of people to is not correct. When I was the Minister make up the leeway in patronage which I went to the Eastern States several times Is necesary for Cannlngton Central to and talked to people involved in greyhound be able to pay Its way. I think racing. We took the best advice available, the introduction of bookmakers will go which was not to have bookmakers but to some of the way towards attracting addi- try the totalisator first. It was said book- tional patronage-those people who want makers were taking a lot out of the sport the facility. However they are in the and putting nothing back into it, so we minority and I do not believe the current were advised to try it without bookmakers, attendances will double. which we did. we legislated for the total- isator only, and perhaps In the light of I am not particularly fussy one way or nearly two years' experience it has been the other about greyhound racing, and I found bookmakers will give the sport a am certainly not particularly fussy about boost. having bookmakers on the course. How- I think it needs a boost. I want to refute the statements which ever, I am a realist. We have greyhound have been made. The only reason we did racing, and we have a facility which is not legislate for bookmakers is that we alleged to be second to none in the nation. were strongly advised not to, and we took An industry has been allowed to develop the best advice from all the people con- and it is because of that I am prepared nected with greyhound racing In the to support this Bill. At least, it will be Eastern States. Not only will we now have another means of assisting the greyhound bookmakers but perhaps we will also have racing industry to become viable. It will some lady bookmakers as they have in be able to expand and go into other areas, the Eastern States. I saw some lady book- as -has been suggested by previous makers when I was over there and people speakers. were queueing up to place bets with them. For that reason alone I believe we should Mr Dans spoke about the whippets in support the Bill. We should ensure that Kalgoorlie. I can remember them in Kal- those people who have invested money in goorlie and Collie, and I can also remember the industry have an opportunity to be that the man who sold pies did very good involved in a profitable and paying enter- business because If people did not want prise, rather than be placed in the situa- a. whippet to win they would fill it up with tion which Is facing them at present; that pies and water. But greyhound racing is is a bankrupt industry with all its facili- more honest than that. It is an honest ties down the drain. sport and the dogs are kept away from I want to make one final point in regard people, so that makes the people honest, to the facility at Cannington Central. As too. I sad earlier, I do not think we should With those few remarks I support the necessarily measure the good of a project Bill. on only one facet of it. Another feature of Cannlngton Central is that it has THE HON, D, JL WORDSWORTH provided in that district a very nice, (South) (7.50 p.m.l: As members may re- modern facility which is used for public call, I was opposed to the legislation when functions. Organisations, hold dances, it was originally introduced because the dinners, and so on there, so it is providing community in which I lived in Tasmania a facility which did not exist in that was involved with greyhound racing and area, in addition to its proper function as I saw what it had done there. I consi- a greyhound racing centre. Also, it dered it would be of no benefit at all to is the Intention of the Agricultural the community. Perhaps I also had per- Society, possibly In conjunction with the Town of Canning Council, to develop sonal reasons in that I am aware of the the centre as an arena for sporting events disease aspect with dogs, and I pointed out for young people and so on. It must to the House at the time that a dog can therefore be looked at on a wider plane spread a very dreaful disease without the than owner being aware of it. I felt if we were merely greyhound racing. to have greyhound racing we should have I1 support the Bill for all those reasons. some control for the disease of hydatids. [Tuesday. 5 October, 1976] That was a personal reason because a include the operation of bookmakers. The daughter of mine nearly died from the Hon. Claude Stubbs has explained the rea- disease. son for that. Mr Berry also raised the When it comes to whether or not we matter of bookmakers being able to bet should have bookmakers on the course I on other racing events. We have had very find myself still disagreeing. The Hon. little of that type of betting with book- Claude Stubbs is quite correct when he makers in this State. There have been says at the time this legislation occasions when trotting meetings may was in- have been held in the afternoon and book- troduced bookmakers were deliberately ex- makers have been able to bet on that type cluded because they would not really do of racing as well as horse racing. Under anything for the industry. I1do not think the Bill this can be done when there are they will do anything for the industry at dual meetings in the State on one after- this stage. Perhaps people have a faint noon. Trotting is usually held at night, hope that bookmakers will save the in- horse racing on Saturday afternoons, and dustry. As the Hon. Claude Stubbs said, dog racing on Saturday nights. There they take a great deal out of the indus- are not many occasions when two types of try and do not put anything back. in racing are being conducted at the same many other parts of the world racing sur- time, so the opportunities for bookmakers vives without bookmakers; they are not to cross-bet from one course to the other necessary for a successful racing industry. are not very frequent. Cross-betting takes I1 will not support the legislation and place when bookmakers bet at a special I say quite openly that I see little need ring on Eastern States racing and such for it. I think a gambler should be able events as that. to derive satisfaction from putting his The H-on. D. K. Dans. Do you think money on the tote. I am not quite sure bookmakers will be as good supporters of why bookmakers are needed. Perhaps one the tote at the dogs as they are at the of the advantages is that the owner can races? put his money on and know the returns he will get, and others Will not benefit The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: They may be. Mr Wordsworth said he did not support from the knowledge that an owner has put the original legislation. I also did not his money on a dog in a certain race but support it because I did not think there not in others. was room for greyhound racing In Western The Hon. S. J. Dellar: The people know. Australia, but we now have it. A big They follow them around. investment has been made at Cannington. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: But The introduction of bookmakers might the Public cannot follow the owner when lead to the opening up of other dog racing he bets with a bookmaker and get the venues, say at Northanm or Pinjarra, which same odds; the odds drop might give the sport a little impetus. Per- straightaway. haps some advantage will accrue to the The Ron. S. J. Dellar: it is not always Greyhound Racing Association through the the owner who gets the best price, either. introduction of bookmakers, and grey- The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: The hound racing may go ahead. it is in a odds fall on the tote for the owner as fairly parlous position at the present time well, but with the bookmaker they do not without bookmakers. This is an attempt fall, so the owner will pay the bookmaker by the Government to see whether It can if he has any knowledge of the way the save greyhound racing in this State and contestants will run. the investment which has been made In I do not see any need for bookmakers the venue at Cannington. and I do not believe they will save the Question put and passed, day. Nevertheless, I have a certain Bill read a second time. amount of sympanthy for those who have invested their money at Cannington and In Committee, etc. in greyhound racing. I think it would Bill passed through Committee without have been better had we not passed the debate, reported without amendment, and legislation in the first place and had we the report adopted. put these people out of their anxiety. I wish them well with their bookmakers-- PAINTERS' REGISTRATION ACT I can see the legislation will pass through AMENDMENT BILL the House. Second Reading THE HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central- Debate restumed from the 22nd Septem- Minister for Health) [7.55 p.ma.]: I thank ber. members who supported the Bill. There THE HON. S. J. DELLAR (Lower North) is not a great deal to cover in replying to [8.01 p.m.): This Bill seeks to place the debate. beyond doubt the situation which exists in The Hon. Mr Berry raised a couple of respect of industrial spray painting and queries. He asked why the original legis- signwriting. The first matter refers to lation for greyhound racing did not the process of applying protective coatings 2766 2766COUNCIJI to and the sandblasting of materials which IRRIGATION (DUNHAM RIVER) are to be used in constructions other AGREEMENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL than dwellings. The second part of the Second Reading Bill deals with signwriters. Debate resuned from the 22nd Septem- It is not necessary for me to say a ber. great deal about the Bill. I have discussed it with the industry at various levels. THE HON. J. C. TOZER (North) [8.08 Whilst mainly the Industry agrees with p.m.]: It surprises me that Mr Claughton the Bill, It Is noted that the Painters and or some other member of the Opposition Decorators' Union is not very happy with did not rise to speak to this Bill- its proposals. The objections of that union The Hon. S. J. Ijellar: We thought we have been mentioned in another Place and would give you a chance. have been recorded on page 2015 of the The Hon. J, C. TOZER: -because this current Hansard. The objections have is a been noted, and I believe at this time the matter of some significance, not in legislation should be proceeded with, We what is achieved by the measure, but the should give it a try and see what happens: implications it has for the Kimberley perhaps in the future it may be necessary region of Western Australia. to consider it again to see whether or not The very fact that we have before the objectives of the Bill are in fact work- us this Bill to amend the Dunham ing and covering the situation they are River agreement Indicates there has designed to cover. been an apparent failure of the pro- ject in the Kimberley. However, I do The Hon. N. McNeill: Thank you. not think we should necessarily regard Question put and passed. ourselves as losers because of this. No Sill read a second time. taxpayers' funds have been expended on this project; and while the project has In Committee, etc. not lived up to the high hopes we may Bill passed through Committee without have had for it a few years ago, I feel debate, reported without amendment, and a great deal has been learnt from what the report adopted. has been done at Dunham River to date. The concept of the pilot farm scheme TRANSPORT COMmIISSION ACT was first class. In his speech the Minister AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) described the nature of the project, and hie explained that the second phase was Second Reading completely dependent upon the success of Debate resumed from the 22nd Septem- the first phase. The first phase has not ber. been as successful as was expected, and THE HON. D. K. DM45 (South Metro- so it is not surprising that the Goddard politan-Leader of the Opposition) [8.05 corporation has come to the State and p.m.]: This BIll contains several amend- requested amendments to the agreement ments which are desirable in order to in order that the corporation may be re- facilitate the administration of the Trans- lieved of its responsibilities in respect of port Commission. The Act is in three stage 2 of the agreement, and also that parts, and deals with the licensing of considerable changes be made to that omnibuses, commercial goods vehicles, and part of the agreement relating to the stage aircraft. An amendment is included in 1 development. respect of the submission of evidence by I believe that Bob Goddard has made affidavit, and this has already been done a major contribution in our region as a in other legislation in respect of taxi-cars result of his efforts at Dunham River. He and in relation to the Road Maintenance has proven certain crops very effectively. (Contribution) Act. Of course, there have been trial plots at The Bill also removes responsibility the research station for many years, but from a driver who may be apprehended Bob Goddard has been able to indicate by a Transport Commission inspector, and that sorghum for both grain and forage places the onus squarely where it should can be grown successfully on a broad acre always have belonged; that is, on the basis. Pangola grass has been grown ex- owner tensively on the farms in the stage 1 area of the vehicle. In addition, it at Dunham River; and in point of fact tidies up certain aspects of charter air- Bob Goddard introduced a machine to craft; and if one reads the Act one finds plant pangola. This machine Is unique as the commission has had very little power far as we in Western Australia are con- in this respect. cerned. You are probably aware, Sir, that Question put and Passed. pangola6 grass must be planted by runners, Bill read a second time. and Goddard brought with him from America a machine that can do this. The In Committee, etc. machine is now in operation on the project Bill Passed through Committee without at the Ord. debate, reported without amendment, and The Hon. G. W. Berry: Do you harvest the report adopted. pangola grass? [Tuesday, 5 October, 1976] 276776

The Hon, J. C, TOZER: It certainly very nature of the Kimnberley is reflected makes excellent hay. Tropical legumes have in these difficulties. The Mdinister has been grown on these farms and have been told us that only seven of the 10 x 1 000 Proven to be successful. These include acre farms that have been developed can Townsville stlyo, siratro, and phasey bean, be adequately watered from the resources and others which are excellent fodder of the Arthur Creek dam. crops. In addition, several pasture grasses In the Kimberley there are two types have been grown under irrigation at this of wet season. One year the mon- project, and these include buff alo and soonal depressions will move further to other commendable types. the south and the Kimberley will re- Despite the apparent problems associated ceive 40 to 60 inches of rain. For with this project, very good crops have two months or more we will have been grown at Dunham River, and the rain every day- In other years the rain- results have provided evidence that in fact fall is of the order of 15 inches to 25 the soil types in the Dunham Valley are inches. During the times when the mon- probably superior to those found in the soonal depressions do not come so far Ord Valley at Kununurra. south the level of rainfall is dependent Bob Goddard developed feed lots on his upon the occasional thunderstorms or in project at Dunham River, and from these some cases is associated with cyclonic de- he produced first-class stock. Not only pressions. Thus the rainfall in the Kim- has he provided storage facilities, but berley is not predictable. also drying equipment to dry the grain I have spent five so-called "wets" in for storage. in the time he has Derby. During some years I have had been at Dunham River he has spent $4.5 to water my garden on 360 days of the million, and he has proved that a great year and on the other days we would have deal can be done in the area. had a few thunderstorms. However, I think we must take into con- The trouble is that the Ord catchment sideration factors other than agriculture area is contiguous with the Dunham which have probably been the main contri- catchment area; they have a common butors to the apparent failure of the pro- watershed. Therefore, there has been a ject. First of all we have to look at en- tendency to interpolate results on the Ord gineering considerations, to which I will Catchment area and apply them to the refer in a moment. it is a question of Dunham area. In fact this is not pos- costs, and particularly the cost associated sible. The Ord catchment area covers ap- with transport. Farmers in the southern Proximately 20 000 square miles. The part of the State would be interested to catchment area of Arthur Creek is quite know that it costs in the order of $200 small. While the runoff was calculated to a tonne to get urea onto a farm at Dun- provide a certain amount of water, clearly ham River. The lack of facilities-par- in the dry years these odd thunderstorms ticularly grain handling facilities at are likely to miss the restricted catchment Wyndham-has created real problems and and, therefore, the runoff into the Arthur has inhibited development of grain crops Creek dam would in the area. be minimal. I Point out that the IMoochalabra The Hon. H. W. Gayfer: There are grain dam which supplies the town water facilities at Wyndham., What are you for Wyndam and which was constructed coming at? by the Public Works Department suf- The Hon. J. C. TOZER: of course, the fers from exactly the same deficiency main problem associated with the failure -some years there Is a very good of this project Is the depressed beef intake and some Years there is almost nil. market at the moment. The meatworks There is a great problem for that supply has not been able to pay premium prices but a redeeming feature is that the King for higher grades of beef, and thus there River is right next door to give a supple- has been no outlet for the high quality mentary supply. beef that has been turned off in the area. It Is interesting to note that the Arthur The beef from the Dunham River has Creek dam is not much smsaler than the been supplying the retail market in Dar- diversion damn on the Ord at Kununurra. win for quite some time and That in turn is much the same in size as, other cattle say, the Canning Dam in Perth. We find have been shipped to Adelaide and other that even the Canning Dam does not fill Eastern States capital markets. No-one up every year. can ever say that the apparent failure of this project has been due to lack of ef- To illustrate the amount of water that fort. The effort has been colossal and flows into the Arthur Creek dam it is the results interesting to look at the records that quite spectacular. have been kept by the Public Works I should like to refer now to the en- Department. in 1969 some 23 million gineering problems associated with the cubic metres flowed into the dam. In 197l0 Dunham River Project and particularly the figure was 1 million cubic metres. with the dain on Arthur Creek. I think the In 1971 it was 4 million cubic metres; in 2768 2788[COUNCIL]

1972, 24 million cubic metres; in 1973, 2 in many instances and apparent failure million cubic metres; and in 1974, 38 In many instances. But the project kept million cubic metres. Members will quite on going and we learnt more and more. readily see that if that sort of inflow occurred every year the Arthur Creek dam Subsequently the Australian Land and would be consistently full and there would Cattle Company, headed by Jack Fletcher, be no Problems associated with the water moved in. This company also had its ups supply to meet the stage 1 requirements and downs; and I think most of us would of the Dunham River project. accept that generally they have been downs. However, that company Is still When he was, planning his project Bob there and still has the potential to make Goddard actually envisaged using sprinkler a major Contribution as time goes on. irrigation. Of course this would have used less water, but he found in practice that At Anna Plains we saw the best part It was also far more expensive, Whenever of $1 million spent by American entrepre- water had to be pumped there were the neurs Linkletter and Chase when they used additional costs of fuel and the high costs sub-artesian water to spray irrigate broad associated with our area. This was just acre crops. It was a very spectacular sight one of the many lessons that he learnt. to see that operation. The State agricult- ural advisers told them they could not use It became apparent then that the water the highly mineralised waters but these per acre which was required to Irrigate fellows had to try to prove the project. these 10 farms was more than had been planned for when the feasibility for the While our own agricultural advisers had project was worked out. Bob Goddard was made their recommendations as a result warned, and was well aware of the fact, of control plots these fellows showed us that one season in three he could expect that there were still deficiencies and that a restricted water supply. He took a Cal- we had to have something better than culated risk, pointing out that he would spray irrigation with highly inferalised adapt his cropping procedures to the water if we were to succeed. That was water available. For example, with a wet another Case Of a lot Of money being season rain would provide most of the spent, a failed enterprise but a lot learnt watering required for a sorghum crop but from it. supplementary watering only would be re- Now we have the Dunham River pro- quired from the scheme. ject and I do not need to tell members The rest of the story is now history more about that. It was Alan Chase who and it would appear that only seven farms first of all went there and he introduced can be adequately watered on a year-by- the Goddard corporation to the project. year basis. Goddard of Australia Propriet- What has occurred has been explained to ary Limited now wishes to relinquish all hold over three of the 1 000 acre farms. Us. If we look at the Ord River we see that I think it Is very important that we that project started with the elementary recognise the benefit that accrues from the stages of the research station when Kim free enterprise projects that we see in the Durack was again involved. Of course north and that pioneers such as Goddard Mr Frank Wise, a former distinguished be given every possible encouragement. It does not matter whether agriculture, member of this House, was also very much mining, fishing or any other project is involved as a young mejn. concerned: our part of the State Is tough We then came to the pilot farm stage country. People come from more estab- and then the 30 000 acres of stage one. Of lished industries elsewhere in the world course in this case there was Government and are not educated to the fact that they sponsorship but we found again that there have to adapt their schemes and way of were American entrepreneurs among the operation to the peculiar needs of our people who came to the area. Here again district. the amount of money spent has been great I hope that entrepreneurs such as Bob but the cumulative store of knowledge is Goddard will always oie to this country, considerable. and 1 hope they will be en~couraged by I remind members of the Chaffey sympathetic Governments. I do not attach brothers who approached the Victorian any criticism to the Government for Government in the 1890s with a foolhardy completing the agreement in 1968. sounding project concerning the Murray In looking at the agricultural projects River at Mildura. They approached the in the Kinberley which many people South Australian Government concerning would describe as failures, we see that it a project at Renmark which sounded was 1950 when Associated Rural Industries equally foolhardy. The Chaffey brothers first looked at Caznballin. Peter Parley were bankrupted as a result of their activ- was the person concerned. Subsequently ities, but we have to look at the long- by agreement with the State In, I think, term results and we can now see the tre- 1957, Northern Developments was created mnendous number of irrigated industries and Kim Durack was brought in to grow along the Murray River including citrus, rice crops In the area. There was success all sorts of orchards, vines and the wine [Tuesday, 5 October, 19761376 2769 industry. In fact if one goes to Mildura River in Queensland. The farmers Involved now one will find statues of the same there do not service the capital involved. Chaffey brothers who lost all their money. We must recognise that the major water It is interesting to note that the Chaffey storage projects are the responsibility of brothers were also from North America. Governments; they are part of the develop- Although In 1975 we might view these ment of our nation. it seems essential that agricultural projects in the Kimberley as at some time In the future the Government apparent failures, they will turn out to be will become Involved in capital works for the successes of the future. The major projects like Camballin and, possibly, the Problem, which I have little doubt applied Dunham River. Frankly I hope it does to the Murray River years ago, is the ab- not become greatly involved, but the sence of any economy of scale. We Just capital associated with these projects have not been big enough to develop makes it almost inevitable that it will. transport, the infrastructure needed and Incidentally it will be noted that under the processing mills associated with such the amending Bill provision is made for industries which would then bring the the establishment of what we might des- people so that public utilities and social cribe as a local water board to control amenities could follow. the use of the water. The Government There is a strong body of expert opi- will provide the chairman for the board. nion that if someone had been bold enough to authorise the full 200 000 acres Reverting back to the Dunham River of irrigable land in the Ord project ini project, I wish to say that the whole con- the first instance there would have been cept of moving cattle from the rangeland no halt in the project, It -would have pro- to improved pastures--improved by the use of legumes or other introduced grasses-- gressed and would have made the grade and then onto irrigated pasture or straightaway. But there is no doubt at feedlots for finishing Is all right. There all that as time goes on we will see suc- Is no doubt that this will be the cess in this and all other projects. pattern for the future. The beef cat- The association of the Ord and the tle industry is the whole basis of the Dunham is very important. Obviously the economy of the Kimberley, and always facilities, the services and the processing will be. There win be cash crops grown plants that are going to be placed on the on the irrigation projects, but essentially Ord will be of major assistance to the the important industry of the region will Dunham area. be the beef cattle industry. Of course If the Ord should develop with I am quite sure that stations such as a monoculture, perhaps sugar cane, then Bedford Downs, Bow River, Springvale, the next 34 000 acres under stage 2 which Lissadell, Texas Downs, and Mabel Downs has now been cancelled will come into will take up these farms In order that their own with other crops. Perhaps we they might move their range cattle will have -a statue In Wyndham to Bob from the range onto fenced-in and tIn- Goddard, By the way, already we have proved pastures and then onto the irri- unveiled a plaque to Kimn Durack on the gated areas of the Dunham River en route banks of the Ord where he carried out his to the meatworks. This will be the pattern initial experimental work. of the future. All of us should be reminded that no Hod Goddard is a cattle man and all irrigation project services the capital his activities on the pilot stage of the involved in its establishment. This applies Dunham River were oriented towards the anywhere in Australia and, perhaps I am development of cattle outputs. His ambi- safe in saying, anywhere in the world. in tions were blocked primarily because of the south-west we have the Wellington the disastrous fall in the price of cattle Dam, Stirling Dam, Logue Brook Dam, and, under those circumstances, his ina- and Waroona Dam, but farmers In that bility to fatten cattle to provide the prime great productive irrigation area are not quality beef which can be produced. expected to service the capital cost on those projects. This also applies In con- Under the parent Act, when freehold nection with the Murray River and the title was granted for five farms the person locks which have been established to con- entitled to such farms was not able to trol the flow and provide water for Irri- sell without ministerial approval. This is gation projects and in connection with the unusual and I1 wonder why Goddard's Hume Dam and the mighty Snowy River attorneys did not realise It in 1958. project. No attempt is made by any Gov- Today I received some information from ernment to stipulate that the farmers must the Minister for Lands in reply to a ques- meet the capital repayments on the work tion I asked. It is interesting to note done to provide the major engineering that the Dunham River pastoral lease has structures necessary to ensure that the now been transferred to the Aboriginal industries dependent on irrigation can Lands Trust and, specifically, the Doondoon survive. The same can be said of the Pastoral Company has taken up the lease. cotton areas at Namol and Wee Waa and That company comprises the Gidja Abori- the cane sugar industry on the Burdekin ginal group, and the cost of the lease was 2770 2770[COUNCIL]

$170 000. 1 hope the group can develop On page 5 of the Minister's notes we a workable cattle operation on Dunham find that an interdepartmental committee, River and that in due course it will have beaded by Mr Hamilton, Director, office access to part of either the 10000 acres of the North West, was established and as or the next 34 000 acres the development a result of the deliberations of that com- of which is at present in mothballs. I mittee certain recommendations were hope it will thus be able to produce a made. The Minister's notes read- better quality beef on Its property. These recommendations are One of the important pieces of informa- reflected in the executed agreement, tion in the answer to the question was as set out in the schedule to the Bill, that there is no impediment to the and may be broadly summarised as development of the next 34 000 acres and follows- I certainly look forward to the day when Authority for the sale by God- we have another agreement before us dard of Australia Pty. Ltd. of five under which we will again reverse the of the 10 farms, for which Crown situation to that which applied under the grants have previously issued. original agreement of 1968 so that we (Farms 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6); ensure the additional agricultural land can I will admit that I have not studied the be released. This is part and parcel of schedule, but ncwhere does the Minister the overall development of agriculture give any indication of the conditions of and particularly irrigated agriculture in the sale or the way in which Goddard can the Kimberley region. dispose of the farms. To continue- I support the Bill before us. I am sorry provision for the amendment of the it had to be presented, but I acknowledge b~undaries of farm No. 8; that although it is necessary under the provision for the issue of Crown present circumstances, there is no doubt grants for farms 7 and 8; that we will see better things from this and similar projects. provision for the retention, for the time being, by Goddard of Australia Pty. Ltd. of farms 7 and 8 but with THE HON. S. J. DELLAR (Lower North) the right to lease for any term not [8.29 p.m.]: I rise to support the Bill and exceeding three years; to put at rest the mind of Mr' Tozer who was rather surprised that no-one from provision for the surrender to the the Opposition side spoke on the second Crown of existing leases over farms reading although the opposition had 2, 9 and 10, with the intent that obtained the adjournment of the debate. alternative leases be issued enabling Unfortunately, the Opposition's member the land to be utilised solely for dry who is in charge of the Bill is not able to land holding areas for stock; be present. consideration of acceptance of responsibility for the control and man- We did not rise to speak because we angement of Arthur Creek dam, the knew very well that Mr Tozer was particu- drainage channels, the water distribu- larly interested in the area involved and tion system and farms 2, 9 and 10 that because of his vast knowledge of the being passed to Arthur Creek Irriga- subject he may have been in a position Lion Company Pty. Ltd., the share- to provide us with some information. He holders of which would comprise the did so and I thank him for that informa- respective registered proprietors for tion, because the Minister's second reading the time being of farms 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, speech told us very little. In fact it took 7 and 8; approximately five minutes of the time of the House for the Minister to impart the consideration of assignment by Goddard of Australia Fty. Ltd. of a contents of the Bill. However, Mr Tozer significant part of the agreement to has now explained it to us. Arthur Creek Irrigation Company Mr Tozer has expressed sorrow that the Pty. Ltd.; project will not enter the second Phase of recognition of the fact that phase 2 development and that the people con- development will not proceed. cerned in the enterprise have lost a con- siderable amount of money. I wonder We do not oppose the Bill. Like Mr Tozer whether this was another Ill-advised, ill- I am sorry the developers are not in a founded, and hastily-drafted agreement position to continue. As I said before I of the boom years of the 1960s when agree- wonder whether this is one of those agree- ments on various projects were coming ments which was hastily written and ill from right, left, and Centre. Now we find conceived- that the projects under some of the agree- The Hon. A. A. Lewis: I think that is ments are not comning to fruition and that very unfair. People like Mr Goddard, about whom Mr The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: -in the Tozer spoke, are losing their money. alleged boom days. I reiterate that I am grateful to Mr The Hon. A. A. Lewis: That is very Toter for his having provided some of the unfair both on Mr Goddard and the background of the agreement. Government of the day. (Tuesday, 6 October, 19161 272771

The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: As Mr Tozer Mr Tozer gave us quite a lot of the his- said, Goddard is an entrepreneur and an tory of this matter, and I agree with him. investor and perhaps he did not go into the project with his eyes closed. He The Hon. S. J. Defear: What are the thought there was an area in which he conditions? could make an investment and obtain a The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: Goddard of return, Australia Pty. Ltd. will retain the man- The Hon. A. A. Lewis:- That is right. So agement of three farms, but the other why do you say it was III conceived? farms-Nos. 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 may be trans- The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: Whether it ferred to Wee Country Development Cor- poration and it will be possible under the was Ill conceived or hastily conceived- terms agreed to by the Minister to dis- The Hon. A. A. Lewis: You said it was. pose of these properties. The Hon. S. J. DELLAR: I said it might As Mr Tozer said, it Is a pity that this have been. Bill had to come before the House, but it is one of those unfortunate things. If The Hon. A. A. Lewis: You were criticis- one were to consider the development of Ing a, previous Government for an ill- the Kimberley over the many years past conceived agreement. -from the time of the first settlers-one The Hon. S. 3. DELLAR: 1 did not say would realise what it takes to develop an it was I11 conceived. I said I wondered area of country like the Kimberley. whether it was another of the ill-conceived I recall when I was a boy in 1919 and agreements written In haste. my father was Minister for Agriculture The Hon. A. A. Lewis: What are the that the Wyndhanm meatworks was opened others? to assist the cattle growers of the Kim- berley and help them market their cattle The Hon. S. 3. DELLAR: I ant sure that rather than ship them to F'remantle for if this Government stays In office much slaughtering. Apart from this, it was ne- longer we will have more Bills under which cessary to walk the cattle some hundreds we will be told that certain proposals of miles before they could be put on board cannot proceed. ship. Accordingly, it would be appreciated The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Another of those just how long it takes to develop country 111-conceived agreements! of this nature. So when people talk about this being The Hon. S. J. DEILAR: The Opposition a failure and that being a failure they does not oppose the legislation. Mr Tozer should look to posterity: they should con- said he was surprised no-one on this side sider the future and reflect that in Years spoke to the second reading. I do so now to come this development will provide the merely to point out that at least Mr Tozer foundation, and Produce in the Kimberley gave us some knowledge of the Bill area something to which future genera- because the Minister's speech gave us very tions can look forward. little information on which to work. As I have said, while it is a pity that this Bill had to come before Parliament, THE HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central- we must appreciate that farming and Minister for Health) [8.45 p.m.): I would grazing is an up and down business. From like to express my appreciation to Mr your experience, Mr President, you will Tozer for his contribution to the debate know that things are not always rosy- on this Bill and for the information he in some years we have good seasons and has given to the House. are on the crest of the wave, while I do not know why Mr Dellar com- in others we have bad seasons and more plained that he got very little information often than not we finish in a trough. This on the matter. If he reads the second has always been the case with farming. reading notes again he will see they refer I have known it to be so all my life. specifically to what is in the Bill; he will We know that in 1968 the price for see they set out all the details of the cattle was fairly good. This has gone amnendmrents proposed to the agreement back at the moment, but I can see a time with the company and the transfer from when cattle prices will again come good, Goddard Holdings to Wee Country Devel- and we will probably go ahead to bitter opment Corporation. It also refers to things. I again commend the Bill to the the terms under which the new company H-ouse. may assign or transfer any of these pro- Question put and passed. perties; in other words, according to the Bill read a second time. terms the Minister is prepared to agree upon. In Committee, etc. Had the honourable member read the Bill passed through Committee without second reading notes properly he would debate, reported without amendment, and have found sufficient information. the report adopted. 2772 2172[COUNCIL]

HIRE-PURCHASE ACT AMENDMENT injuries, at the same time the general BILT public and the farmers in particular are Receipt and First Reading being raped and ravaged by rather ridiculous, inconsequential, and irrespon- Bill received from the Assembly; and. sible union executives. on motion by the Hon. N. E. Baxter (Min- I wonder what sort of priorities we ister for Health), read a first time. have in this country when Parliament literally sits back while this sort of thing Second Reading is taking place, We have a small group THE HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central- of men who are sabotaging and blackmail- Minister for Health) [8.51 pmn.: I move- ing what is probably one of the major That the Bill be now read a second sectors of our economy-and I refer now time. particulrly to the dispute at Rlobb Jetty The first licences to credit Providers with its consequent repercussion to the issued under the Hire-Purchase Act ex- whole of the livestock industry. pired on the 30th June, 1916 and on the We appear to be in a position where 25th June, the tribunal heard over 100 we are forced to sit back and debate these applications for renewal of licence. This trivialities while farmers associated with necessitated the attendance of applicants this very important fat stock industry are who naturally were occupied for some being greatly affected by what is happen- time in the Process. The Act, as it stands, ing today-and not only the farmers but requires a "hearing" of application all those associated with the industry, whether contested or not. whether they be connected with the trans- Arising from the renewal bearings, Some port of cattle or with the Midland Junc- applicants lodged letters of Complaint tion Abattoir; whether they be traders in about the time-wasting activity in appear- the rural areas or in the city, whether ing before the tribunal, simply to answer they sell fuel or groceries. as to name and company, when no other We seem to have became accustomed to evidence had to be adduced, and have the trying to dodge these disputes hoping they licence renewed. will not affect us personally and that we This Bill is therefore designed to will pick up enough business and survive, streamline the procedure before the hire- whether we be an employer or an em- purchase licensing tribunal, so as to ployee. obviate time-wasting appearances by People have been heard to say that the applicants, when initial applications for matter has gone too far; that it must licences or annual renewal of applications crack, but we seem to go from one dis- for licences are being determined by the pute to another and the situation gets tribunal. more and more difficult for the State and The amendment will alter the law so the country: it gets more difficult par- that the appearance of applicants can be ticularly for the Industry I represent; the dispensed with, not entirely, but at least livestock industry. in cases where there is no evidence to be There seems to be one big difference in adduced, no submissions to be made, and the dispute we are discussing at the no questions to be put by the tribunal. moment. Principally disputes seem to This will allow the tribunal to reserve concern the worker and probably one only matters, as necessary, for formal large company, but in this particular case hearing when attendance of Parties will it affects a vast number of people: for be required. while Perhaps the Clausen Steamship I commend the Bill to the House. Company is the company actually con- Debate adjourned, on motion by the cerned in the dispute, the dispute itself Hon. D. K. Dans (Leader of the opposi- has a great effect on all the woolgrowers tion). and the livestock producers of this State. Undoubtedly the feeling of a large section of our Public is that the slaughtermen are ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE being just too greedy in seeking an increase THE HON. N. MeNEILL (Lower West- from what I gather is an average of $260 Minister for Justice) [8.54 p.m.]: I move- a week-what they are receiving currently That the House do now adjourn. -up to nearly $300 a week by seeking to have the darg adjusted. As we all know, Robb Jetty Meatworics: Industrial Dispute one person alone will have to pay for THE HON. D. J. WORDSWORTH this increase and that is the primary pro- (South) [8.55 p.m.): I would like to ducer, because we will not get any more speak on this adjournment motion because for our livestock overseas, and someone I feel that while many may think we have along the line will have to foot the bill. been debating rather inconsequential leg- Undoubtedly the primary producer is islation in the form of the registration getting more and more worked up about of Psychologists, registration of painters, this and I can see a great disturbance tak- legislation dealing with security agents. ing place because of it. It appears that and that giving compensation for criminal because the union has been unable to make [Tesday. 5 October, 1970] 2773

its point in the abattoir the dispute has A working party of representatives overflowed into the livestock export in- of the Meat Employees' Union, dustry; because It is quite easy to affect exporters and the sheep industry. that industry. under the chairmanship of Mr Fitz- The position has been reached where patrick, spent weeks in delicate nego- the Atlas Pioneer has been turned liter- tiation seeking a compromise solution ally into a floating cemetery with sheep to an export ban proposed by the lined up in plastic bags which cannot be union. unloaded because of quarantine regula- The article went on to explain that there tions. I understand these are sitting now was an agreement about the type and on the upper deck of the 10-deck carrier; weight of stock to be exported. The article they are under tarpaulins. I hope these continues-- bags do not blow up and emit an obnoxious In the meantime, the federal body smell and thus stop the loading of the ship of the MIEtY came out with a ten with livestock if and when there is final point plan for future live sheep agreement to load. exports. However, the restrictions We hope that tomorrow will see an end placed on exports made the plan to the dispute. The Atlas Pioneer is only unacceptable to exporters. the first of the tankers to be converted to Basically, It wanted the exporter or this trade. Wesfarmers-which is a importer to buy the equivalent of 15 co-operative made up of the growers of sheep or lambs in boneless or carcass this State-has another two ships which form for every live sheep purchased. will be comning onto the line in the near future. The processed meat was to be pre- pared in the State from which the The Hon. H. W. Qayfer: Do you think live sheep came. they will? If a particular country failed to The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: buy the equivalent of processed meat. Unfortunately, Probably Wesfarmers is an embargo would be put on the committed to charter these vessels regard- export of the live sheep. less of whether or not they can export These conditions would apply till livestock. This is one of the reasons that June 30, 1915. The ratio of processed the producers of this State are becoming meat to live sheep would then be so concerned. The company developed a Increased by 100 per cent. sheep trade with the Persian QuIf and farmers are being paid a minimum of $8 Of course, we have passed that year. The article then says the union proposed that each for these export wethers. Sheep the export of live sheep or lambs for killed here and exported as careases are slaughter should cease from July, 1976. worth about $3.50 only. That was the 10-point Plan which the Many People believe that this dispute unions had decided to go for at that has blown up suddenly, but I believe it has stage, so it is quite evident that this been in the melting pot for months and dispute did not blow up suddenly and that that it was well and truly planned for the meat industry union is determined to the arrival of this ship. I would like to put an end to the trade and to have a quote from The West Australian of the monopoly on the livestock grown In the 12th September, 1974, as this will refresh State. the minds of members about what hap- pened in the past, as we are apt to forget So at that time we had the same prob- it. The article is headed, "Live-sheep) lem on the waterfront at Port Adelaide, exports to be debated", and it reads as as we had here last Thursday when the follows- waterside workers were quite willing to load the stock and yet the meat in- A conference in Sydney on Monday dustry union picketed the railway line could have an important bearing on so that stock could not be put aboard the future live-sheep exports from WA. ship. In that particular case in South The conference has been called by Australia the farmers threatened to have the Minister for Agriculture, Senator 2 000 people on the wharf and undoubtedly Wriedt, to consider the matter on a they were organised to do so. Under the national basis. conditions prevailing, the union withdrew Several industry representatives its objections and the pickets were with- from WA, including the secretary of drawn. This Is the sort of thing that the Meat Industry Employees' Union, will happen in this State if we do not see Mr M. Burns, and the Director of this ship loaded immediately. Agriculture, Mr E. N. Fitzpatrick, will Contrary to the argument put up by attend. the meat industry union, the export of The question of live-sheep exports livestock is very necessary to our State. has been controversial in WA over and the trade is particularly labour in- the last few months because unem- tensive on the waterfront. I hope that ployment among meat workers has the waterside workers appreciate what this risen with a slump in meat exports. dispute will do to them. 2774 [COUNCIL] I understand that over 36 000 hours rail trucks on the wharf and had to be were worked by waterside workers to load taken only 100 yards. It is very fortun- livestock from the Port of Fremiantle. A ate that the farmers did not go to the simple calculation will show that that Port and take on the meat industry amounts to the employment of 99 men unionists there. It is fortunate that the every day of the week and every week of farmers were persuaded by their various the Year for seven hours a day. organisations to hold back and to let good The Hon. D. K. Dans: They must have sense prevail. However, I wonder how only Just started it-livestock was never long this will continue. loaded from Fremantle by them. It is not just the waterside workers who The Ron. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Live- gain employment from the livestock trade. stock is loaded at Esperance and Albany The company involved in the dispute-- by waterside workers. Clausens-during the last 12 months The Hon. D. K. flans: In Albany yes, has undertaken some 5 000 road trans- and in Geraldton. Port movements to get the livestock The Han. Di. j7. WORDSWORTH: This from the holding paddocks to the ship. provides work for many people. If the There have been some 6000 rail move- sheep are killed and become caresses, ments and 6 500 trucks full of fodder have there will be a great deal less work been carted down to the wharf. This is a involved in loading the containers. It is big business, and it is completely in Jeo- about time that some other unions pardy in this State. We are told that appreciated what will happen to them If the buying of wethers has now ceased this ban continues and the overseas ship- completely. Clausens has spent $1 million pers are frightened off. These shippers a month on this trade. it is certainly big can go elsewhere, and when the dispute business for us in Esperance where we occurred in 1974, the Middle East countries usually have just one ship on the run, Purchased sheep from Rumania, the the Linda Clausen, which has moved Argentine, and elsewhere. In spite of that, 90 000 sheep in 60 days and which has the trade was rekindled, and Yet here we brought about $500 000 a year into Esper- see another major dispute-in fact, a ance to the few producers in this area. As dispute of greater magnitude than the I say, these sheep will be valueless with- one of 1974. out this important trade. Once they get We do not have our own abattoirs at to Perth they would be worth $3 to $3.50 Esperance, and it is something special each, and it costs at least $1.50 a sheep for for us to be able to export live sheep. transport to the nearest abattoir. This means we can keep work within our own district. I do not know whether or I rose to speak on this adjournment mo- not the waterside workers in Fremantle tion to point out to the House and to the will be Put out of work if we are not State the importance of the industry to us allowed to export livestock, but certainly and the serious consequences that will fol- they will be Put out of work in Esperance low if the dispute is not ended immedi- and Albany. The Esperance branch of the ately. waterside workers union is exceptional- it is the spearhead of a move to continue THE HON. J. HEITMAN (Upper West) the export of livestock and the* develop- my ment of a completely new trade in the [9.11 p.m.]: I would like to support export of cattle. This may be because colleague, the Hon. D. J. Wordsworth- many waterside workers in Esperance are The Hon. S. J. Dellar: The start of an either farmers themselves or they under- election campaign, is it? stand the problems of the farmers in the area. It is a great pity that the Atlas The Hon. J. HEITMAN: -about the Pioneer was not taken into Esperance. way things have developed in the Fre- I understand the reason was that there mantle zone in regard to the export of were insufficient tugs to bring in such a live wethers. Apparently the whole mat- large ship and it would have been very ter commenced about the 22nd of last expensive to bring in a tug from Albany month, and one thing led to another until for one ship. I am quite sure that had the slaughtermen refused to allow live this ship come Into the Port of Esperance, sheep and wethers to be shipped out of we would not have seen anything like the country. I do not suppose there is what has occurred here. any other community in Australia which The Hon. Di. K. Dans: It is not the is told just how many live sheep it can waterside workers holding up the ship in export. Fremantle. It appears to me to be most unfair The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I am that farmers have held these wetbers back not saying for one moment that they are. until they weigh 60 to 80 lbs, dressed Indeed, from reading the Press cuttings weight, only to find that enough wethers one finds that the waterside workers have have already been shipped out of the Said they will load the sheep. The ridi- country and the unions refuse to allow culous thing is that the sheep were in any more to be exported. [Tuesday. 5 October, 19761 2775

In many cases the farming community the TLC came into the picture and said, has gone to a great amount of trouble to "No, you will not load them." It seems bring sheep up to the stage where they to me that the TLC has no thought for can be shipped out only to find that be- anyone else, except the unions it repre- cause some union does not agree with the sents. It like to throw its weight around set-up it has imposed these restrictions. and destroy the living standard enjoyed by I doubt whether any other community in Western Australians and the life of those the world would put up with this sort of who work hard and endeavour to send thing. live sheep overseas. I have been a farmer in the past and This is a disgusting situation. It is my sons are carrying on at the present very aggravating and annoying and I time, so I find it hard to believe that in think it is about time something was done a drought year, where farmers have saved to let the people know that this is not the Australian way of life; this is not sheep until they can obtain about $7 or allowing People to obtain a decent stan- $8 each for them, they cannot send them dard of living. I support everything said overseas because the unions will not al- by the Hon. David Wordsworth, and only low the sheep to be loaded. We cannot wish that my voice was a little stronger blame Clausens for not buying any more so that I could battle on for another hour. sheep. The company has been a tre- mnendous boon to this country because of the number of sheep it has exported THE HON. T. KNIGHT (South) [9.17 to other countries, and also, it has pur- p.m.): I support my colleagues, the Hon. chased many tonnes of hay each year to David Wordsworth and the Hon. Jack cater for this business. We will find that Heitman in everything they have said. some other country or the Eastern States Looking at the situation over the last few will get this business, and it will be lost months, I believe a strategic plan is In to Western Australia altogether. operation by some secret organisation- From time to time a tremendous ef- The Hon. S. J. Dellar: This is the fort has been put into obtaining these Premier's Russians again. markets and ships have been chartered to send live sheep to Kuwait or some other The Hon. T. KNIGHT: -to cripple the country that likes its meat hot and not economy of this country, to stop exports, killed by the exporting country and then and to bring to their knees people who frozen. In some of these countries but- really care and want to work. Nothing chers like to kill can be gained by these strikes. I believe the animals themselves, the worker who is forced to go on strike by hang the meat, and cut off portions as the an Irresponsible militant union hierachy customers desire. It is a shame that this is being penalised. If he strikes for trade will be lost to Western Australia if four weeks, in effect it costs him and his we have any more strikes. family their annual holidays. He can A lot of planning and work is necessary never catch up on his hire purchase or to get this export trade under way. I mortgage payments because of the time know the people of whom we have been lost through going on strike; that time speaking have tried to set it up in the can never be regained. past but have not been able to manage The whole economy of this country is at it. The sheep must be fed throughout stake. The people who want to work are the journey, and the ship must be kept unable to do so, and nothing is being in a clean condition. One must know done to assist them. I believe a stand the areas that will cut hay so that it must be taken somewhere along the line. can be picked up and used as feed for or this country will be slowly crippled. I the sheep. do not know what the stand should be, It is a shocking thing to see sheep dying but unless we talk about it and get down on the ships in Fremantle because of the to doing something, the effects of these actions of a certain section of the comn- strikes will be drastic. munity. I do not know whether they hate A similar type of dispute is occurring at the farming community, but it appears the moment in our iron ore industry. In they must vent their spite on somebody. fact, such disputes are occurring in This is occurring at a time when the nearly every export industry in Australia. farming community is suffering, and Clau- Unless a country can export what it pro- sen's is in difficuties-a firm which has duces, it surely must die. done a tremendous amount of organising in this area. I speak to workers every day in Albany. I have listened to what the Hon. David I have plenty of Press cuttings which Wordsworth said. I can say that the indicate how the whole dispute developed waterside workers in Albany are a very to this stage. There does not appear to responsible group. Perhaps, unlike other be an end in sight, unless the meeting waterside workers, they are also farmers this afternoon resolved the dispute. When or work part-time at some other occupa- the men decided they would load the ship, tion. They are well aware of the present 2776 [COUNCIL] situation which has been created. They Let us be fair about these things.I want to work; they want this country to understand the plight of the farmers as go forward. do most of the waterside workers. I must Everything is being crippled by these admit I have not had a look at the plight strikes. We are not able to compete on of the meat workers. But we are always the world markets through our rising looking at the manifestation of the disease costs. Our country is a young country in industrial relations, and it is about time which over the years has expanded rapidly. -whichever political Policy we support- When one considers the low population of we had a look at the period when the this country, I believe the quantity of goods germ enters the body, because the need Produced for export represents a magni- exists for such an examination. ficent effort on the Part of the people, it is Just not good enough for Mr including workers belonging to trade Knight to make an inflammatory speech unions, farmers, and business people. We about overseas influences, and secret have set a high standard on the world organisations because the cold hard facts market and we must maintain that stand- are that, not only in this country but ard to exist. I fully support all that my around the world, there are many, many colleagues have said. workers who have never been on strike and who never will go on strike. This is THE HON. D. K. HANS (South Metro- the situation in Australia, where thous- politan-Leader of the Opposition) ands of workers have never even thought (9.20 pm.): I do not want to enter about striking. The situation in the United into the rights or wrongs of the dis- Kingdom is often adverted to in this place, pute surrounding the Particular vessel but millions of workers there have never in Frenmantle, because I do not know a been on strike, and never will. I try to great deal about it. I have a number of understand these problems, but I do not other things to think about without think- think we can get anywhere by making Ing about that. However, I should like to such statements, because we become divi- correct some of the statements made by sive and all kinds of things happen. Mr Heitmnan and Mr Knight. I understood Mr Heitman to say that although the As a matter of fact, there are far less workers were Prepared to conclude the disputes on the waterfront now than there stoppage, the TLC entered the dispute. I used to be before the Woodward inquiry. find that very hard to believe. As Mr Heitman would know, disputes were rife in the coalmining industry Mr Heitman: It is quite true. before the Gallagher inquiry, but that The Hon. D. K. DANS: I am not saying situation has improved drastically since that Mr Hleitman is wrong; I am saying that time. I find it hard to believe. The 'TLC is an organisatlon very similar to the Con- The Ron. J. Heitman: The biggest thing federation of Western Australian Indus- to iron out the problems In the coalmining try in that it is a group of people, industry was the fact that most industries and not a union. Certainly, it acts for switched to oil burners. and on behalf of a very large body of The Hon. D. K. DANS: Mr Heitman people but it cannot enter a dispute unless should not start talking about oil-burning a particular organisation asks It, power stations, or I shall tell him about Mr Heitman: Maybe they did ask it. the cost of producing power in Western The Hon. D. K. DAMS: From my Australia. We are producing more coal experience, if the meat workers said they now than we ever did; coal Production were prepared to allow the ship to be has shown a steady increase over the loaded, the TLC would have no legal right years, despite the fact that oil burners to instruct the union not to load the ship. have been used. I am not talking about However, I will take it upon myself to find what type of burners are used; I am talk- out more about the case. As I say, I find ing about the dramatic reduction in dis- it very hard to believe because the ordin- putes on the coalfields since the Gallagher ary mechanical workings of such a situa- Inquiry. The coalmining industry used to tion would not allow it to happen. be a place of intense disputation; in fact. It was referred to as an "island industry". I do not think the remarks made by Mr Knight go anywhere towards solving these I believe we should be looking at very diffiult Problems. I do not believe some of the deep, even psychological there is any secret organisation. All over problems which are besetting People in the western world, countries are suffering certain areas. We should look at ways of from this kind of disputation. When Mr averting stoppages I agree there is cer- Clive Griffiths was in Canada, the airline tainly a need to do this. However, we pilots, air controllers and ticket girls all will not get anywhere by striking a match were on strike. I believe he travelled by and saying, "I hope it does not cause a bus to the City of Detroit, and got out fire, but it might be to my advantage, so only Just In time, because the next day I will fan it." die entire Police Force of that city went The Hon. J. Heitman: That is exactly on strike. what the unions are doing. (Tuesday, 5 October, 1978] 2777

The Hon. D. K. DANS: I will talk about Job. Members have heard me say many a vessel about which our rural members times that I am a great believer in using have not seen fit to talk, namely, the Har- Properly qualified people-judges, rather vest Gold. Because of the congestion in than amateurs-to examine these areas the freezer and the inefficient methods of Of disputation, and where this has occur- loading meat at Fremantle, a claim for red, a great deal of good has been done. damages of probably $100 000 will be made Perhaps this course should be foliowed in upon the firm about which Mr Heitman the future. We live in difficult times, where was talking. The workers cannot be blamed every manjack of our population- for this: this is a management problem. whether he be a farmer or an ordinary The waterside workers had to unload working man-does not know what lies 2 000 creases of meat, and the vessel around the corner. sailed leaving an additional 500 carcases I understand the concern of the behind. Let us have a look at that little in- farmers; and I understand the concern cident. This is another area which must be of the meat workers who are anxious to examined, because it is germaine to this Preserve their Jobs, although I do not discussion. It causes the same kind of know all the details of the dispute. I also damage to the rural industries as the dis- understand the concern of the coal miners pute now taking place. The problem was and the waterside workers. I have looked caused when the top section of the re- at the situation at the wharf. No doubt, frigerated cargo was loaded first. Is that Mr Clive Griffiths is aware that the the waterside worker's fault? waterside labour force Is down to probably The Hon. J. Heitman: Are you in favour half of what it was a few years ago. That was brought about quite amicably, and of them stopping live exports? there was no dispute. Technical advances The Hon. D. K. DANS: At no stage did were Introduced at the wharf, and by I say that: it is a disaster, as Mr Heitman approaching the matter In a correct man- knows full well. We need to find some ner no heartburning was caused by the solution quickly. What I got up to say change. As a consequence, no industrial was this: I intend to verify the statement stoppages occurred when the labour force about the TLC. was reduced by approximateiy half. The Hon. J. Heitman: It Is quite true; The same thing happens In other indus- I am not one who tells lies. tries in these times. The workers in them do not know what will happen. One of The Hon. D. K. DANS: In all serious- the difficulties in dealing with the people ness, I would be the last person in this engaged In an Industry is that no-one Chamber to suggest such a thing. How- sees himself as being the one to suffer ever, a misunderstanding may have oc- through the introduction of an automatic curred; I will make inquiries to see device. Like two workers involved, I might whether the statement Is correct. look at Mr flellar and he might look at me. He thinks I will lose my job, but I The H-on. J. Heitman: It was the TLC. think he will lose his. It is not until we That was mentioned this afternoon. are both outside the gate that we know the Hon. D. K. DANS: As I say, I find what has really happened. The same thing it hard to believe, but I will check. I has occurred over and over again in these realise the meat workers and the farmers days, and there is a certain amount of are losing wages. fear abroad. It is about time that collect- ively we got together to resolve these The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: As you matters. know, the waterside workers are employed at 10 o'clock on Friday morning and are In reply to the comments of Mr Heitman receiving double time- I assure him that I will certainly make the necessary inquiry. I can tell him that The Hon. D. K. DANS: The wharfies at at Fremantle we have the interests of his Fremnantle never used to handle livestock, Industry at heart. I have intervened whereas in other ports they always did. Personally in a small way In disputes, but I do not know whether they have taken on this occasion I have no intention of over the loading of livestock at Fremantle. upsetting the workers concerned. I can- However, the cold hard facts are there not believe what the honourable member are people in Fremantle who handle live- has said is correct. I wish that Mr Knight stock. It does not matter what kind of and other members had not made the handle one puts on them-whether they statements that they did. are wharfles or whatever-because every- one is losing. The Hon. T'. Knight: You are opposed Finally, I do not think we will get any- to my bringing up the issue. where by making the sort of statement Question Put and passed. made by Mr Knight, because it serves only to fan the flame. I have pointed House adjourned at 9.31 p.m. over the years to great areas of disputa- tion where a proper approach has been taken by people skilled to do the (93)