Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 2 APRIL 1974

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

3400 Farmers' Assistance, &c., Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Ministerial Statement

TUESDAY, 2 APRIL 1974

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. W. H. Lonergan, Flinders) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m.

ASSENT TO BILLS Assent to the following Bills reported by Mr. Speaker:- Mental Health Bill; Public Defence Bill; Queensland Law Society Act Amendment Bill; Legal Practitioners Act Amendment Bill; Intestacy Act Amendment Bill.

PAPERS The following papers were laid on the table:- Orders in Council under­ Money Lenders Act 1916-1973. ExpLosives Act 1952-1972. Water Act 1926-1973 and the Irriga­ tion Act 1922-1973. Harbours Act 1955-1972. Regulations under- Art Union Regulation Act 1964-1973. Queensland Marine Act 1958-1972. Impact Study of proposed Clinker Grinding Complex on Parker Island. (A) Proposal by the Governor in Council to revoke the setting ·apart and declaration as a State Forest of all that piece or part of State Forest 561, parish of Bribie, described as portion 281, parish of Bribie, as shown on plans Cg. 1890 and Cg. 1891 deposi­ ted in the Survey Office and contain­ ing an area of about 250 hectares- Under the Forestry Act 1959-1973. (B) A brief explanation of the proposal. Information concerning applications for Town Plans by Local Authorities (Part Answer to Question asked by Honourable Member for Red­ lands on 'March 28, 1974).

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

DEPORTATION OF FIJIANS Hon. S. D. TOOTH (Ashgrove-Minister for Health) (11.8 a.m.): My attention has been drawn to the fact that the Common­ wealth Minister for Immigration, the Hon­ ourable Al Grassby, is reported to have made statements involving Queensland prison authorities in the controversy currently surrounding the deportation of a number of persons to Fiji. I therefore wish to indicate the extent to which our prison authorities have been involved. Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice 3401

Fourteen persons were brought in to Her port, has he given further detailed con­ Majesty's Prison, Brisbane, at 5.5 p.m. on sideration to the ideas of retired master Friday, 29 March 1974. They were held and accepted by virtue of 14 custody warrants mariner, Captain Moore, which I have signed by E. Webber, an officer in the submitted to his Department on at least Commonwealth Department of Immigration. three occasions in the past five years? The order was made by powers conferred upon him under section 39 of the Migration (2) As Captain Moore's plan for a Act, 1958 to 1966. passage to be cut through the southern tip of Moreton Island is practicable and would On their arrival, in accordance with normal solve the vexed problem of the continual prison procedures and regulations, they were searched, bathed and dressed in remand wasteful use of the Caloundra passage, will clothing. The searches were carried out he now initiate a full feasibility study of in accordance with the regulations, having this matter? due regard for decency and self-respect as set out in regulation 210. (3) Will he investigate the use of one of the Moreton Bay islands, e.g., Mud They were completely segregated from Island, as a store island for petroleum pro­ other prisoners. A hot meal was offered to them on Friday night but as they are, I ducts, as the use of such an island would understand, of Hindu religion, they refused preclude the risk of a devastating fire in to eat it and asked for bread only. They the present wharf facilities on the river? made no contact with other prisoners. I am informed they were very quiet and made Answers:- no complaint regarding their treatment at Her Majesty's Prison, Brisbane. (1 and 2) "Captain Moore's proposals for a new port for Brisbane have been fully They were surrendered to another officer investigated in the past and further studies of the Immigration Department named Thomas Burns at 5.25 p.m. on Saturday, are not needed." 30 March. (3) "The study undertaken by the Department of Harbours and Marine covers QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE all aspects of port operation and develop­ ment, including the operations of the oil COMMITTEE TO REVIEW FLOOD-RELIEF APPLICATIONS industry." Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked The Premier,- NURSING STAFF NUMBERS AND PROBLEMS, Has the committee to review flood claims ROYAL BRISBANE HOSPITAL been set up? If so, who are the members of the committee and what are the pro­ (a) Dr. Crawford, pursuant to notice, cedures to be adopted by any flood victims asked The Minister for Health,- who wish to have their applications ( 1) What are the exact numbers of the reviewed? official establishment for (a) trained nurses, (b) trainee nurses and (c) nursing Answer:- aides at the Royal Brisbane Hospital, "Yes. The members of the committee excluding the Women's and Children's are:-Chairman-Mr. J. W. Ashfield, Hospitals? Stipendiary Magistrate; Mr. W. R. A. McAlpine, Public Curator; Mr. L. A. (2) What are the present numbers of Hielscher, Deputy Under Treasurer; Mr. nurses at that hospital in the same U. D. Thorne, Second Assistant Under categories? Secretary, Premier's Department; and Mr. D. F. Wilson, Assistant Secretary, Co­ (3) In view of the urgency of staff ordinator-General's Department. Flood problems at the hospital, with threats of victims who have any complaints regarding strike action being mentioned, are there the assessment of applic~tions for assist­ any specific recommendations from W. D. ance should write to the Secretary, Flood Scott and Co. which could be immediately Assistance Committee of Review, P.O. Box 15, Brisbane North Quay, stating full implemented? details of their claim." ( 4) Although W. D. Scott and Co. have not yet completed their reports, in the NEW PORT FOR BRISBANE interest of the public, have they made any Dr. Crawford, pursuant to notice, asked general comments as to how nursing staff The Minister for Conservation,- in general, in any hospital, can be given ( 1) As he is conducting an investigation greater assistance with their method of into the establishment of a new Brisbane work and job satisfaction? 3402 Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice

Answers:- receive representation from any organisa­ (1 and 2) "The approved establishment tion within the Hospita-l with a view to and the total number of full-time and part­ correcting any deficiencies. The Chairman, time nursing staff employed at March 28, who is also Chairman of the South Bris­ 1974, in various categories at Royal Bris­ bane Hospitals Board has advised that, bane Hospital is:- following a meeting of the student nurses at Princess Alexandra Hospital and at Royal Brisbane Hospital, he would antici­ Employed Establish- pate approaches being made to both _Boards -- ment and understands that a further meetmg has Full- Part- been arranged by the nurses at Princess time time Alexandra Hospital to document the items they desire to raise with the South Brisbane (a) Trained Nurses .. 276 189 125 Hospitals Board." (b) Student Nurses .. 601 432 .. (c) Nursing Aides, LOCAL AUTHORITY POWERS TO ENTER Assistants in Nurs- PRIVATE PREMISES ing and Cadet Nurses 173 183 57 Mr. Ahern, pursuant to notice, asked The 1,050 804 182 ' Minister for Health,- With reference to a regulation which (3 and 4) "Progress reports from the appeared in the Queensland Government Management Consultants are being received Gazette of February 9 and which appears by the North Brisbane Hospitals Board to give enormous powers to local and a proposed plan for developing authorities to enter premises, including organisational structures has been adopted private homes, with apparently no restric­ by the Hospitals Board. I am informed tions of any kind, are these sweeping that the Management Consultants and the powers necessary and what protection is Hospitals' Analyst teams have submitted provided against possible abuse? recommendations to the Board in an endeavour to maintain the available nursing Answer:- staff at a more constant level in the ward situation. These recommendations have "In reply to the Honourable Member I been adopted." appreciate his concern and agree that the provisions of the regulation of February 9 last, provided Draconian powers for local authorities and appear to ha:ve little respect (b) Dr. Crawford, pursuant to notice, for the normal rights of citizens. I wish asked The Minister for Health,- to set the Honourable Member's mind at ( 1) Has his Department ascertained the rest immediately by indicating my intention views of the secretariat and executive of to recommend to the Governor in Council the Queensland Nurses Federation with the early withdrawal of this regulation. In regard to the current problems pertaining the circumstances, however, I feel that the to nursing services at the Royal Brisbane Honourable Member is entitled to some Hospital? account of the circumstances under which (2) As it is of vital importance that it was promulgated. Late on the evening the nurses, who perform the basic work in of Friday, February 8, I was attending a a hospital, be given every consideration meeting of the Health Committee of the when they have legitimate problems, has Liberal Party organisation when I received his Department had any contact with the an urgent call from the Under Secretary Student Nurses Organisation to discuss of the Premier's Department, Mr. K. these matters and, if so, what are the Spann, asking me if I would make myself results and how quickly can the problems available for a conference in his office on be solved? an urgent matter. Upon my arrival at the Premier's Department I found a group of Answers:- senior officers of that Department together with the Director-General of Health and (1) "I am advised that representatives Medical Services, and several of the of the North Brisbane Hospitals Board, as Government's legal advisers in conference. the necessity arises, discuss with repre­ I may say in passing that coincidental with sentatives of the Royal Australian Nursing the time of my arrival Mr. Spann received Federation any matters which are of con­ a telephone call which appeared to surprise cern either to the Hospitals Board or the and distress him and at the conclusion of Federation. I am kept informed of the which he told me that the Lord Mayor results of any discussion and of any pro­ had just requested him to remove all State posals of the Hospitals Board to overcome Government Flood Relief Distribution any problems." Agencies from the Ciey Hall and other (2) "The Chairman of the North Bris­ Council premises. I refer to this matter as bane Hospitals Board has advised me that it is relevant to what followed. On the Hospitals Board is only too willing to enquiring the reason .for my being sum­ meet any employees of the Board or to moned I was told that the Lord Mayor Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974} Questions Upon Notice 3403

alleged the existence of a serious health limits, as set out in the application for problem in the City arising from more than student allowance, means that those parents 1,900 locked homes which had been wholly whose adjusted family income is just above or partly submerged and which were the maximum figure receive no support at unoccupied and to which access might not all from the Queensland Government? be possible. It was felt that if the City health authorities could not take urgent (2) Will he consider the introduction of steps to break into and clean these premises a scheme of student allowances similar to a serious health hazard would arise and the Commonwealth Government's tertiary that in these circumstances the Lord Mayor allowance scheme, whereby, when an had joined with the Leader of the Opposi­ adjusted family income is above the limit tion in demanding the proclamation of a for qualification for a maximum allowance, State of Emergency to enable the Council the parents can still qualify for a part­ to enter locked and unattended premises student allowance on a reducing scale? without incurring ri&ks of legal action. Whilst I approached this problem with Answers:- considerable reserve I felt that every ( 1) "Parents whose adjusted family facility should be afforded the City health income is just above the maximum figure authorities and joined the conference to allowable for the student allowance are consider the best way of meeting the prob­ not eligible to receive such allowance but lem. Under normal circumstances, Section would be eligible to receive the text book 160 (2) of the Health Act would have allowance which is payable at the rate of provided the necessary authority but as $20 per annum for Grade 8; $10 per procedures under that subsection are fairly annum for Grades 9 and 10; and $40 per cumbersome and time consuming they annum for Grade 11, provided the student could not have met the situation as pre­ is not in receipt of the Commonwealth sented by the Lord Mayor. Section 9 ( 1) Aboriginal Grant. A remote area allow­ of the Health Act provides that directions ance is paid to the parents of children in may be issued to a local authority to take Grades 6 to 12 where such children are certain specific action as outlined by the compelled, by reasons of remoteness, to Director-General but in the rather heated board away from home in order to attend atmosphere which appeared to exist at a primary or secondary school with the the City Hall at that time it was felt that required grade. This allowance is not it would not be discreet to issue directions subject to any means test and is in addition to the Brisbane City Council and I there­ to any benefit that might be obtained under fore requested the legal officers to find, if the student allowance scheme. Students possible, another method of coping with the who are in receipt of the Commonwealth problem. After some considerable time Aboriginal Grant are not eligible to receive spent in consultation it was decided that an this allowance. The allowances are paid Order in Council under Section 33 of the at the following rates-$160 per annum for Health Act which provides for the issue of Grades 6 to 7; $200 per annum for Grades regulations with respect to infectious 8, 9 and 10; $250 per annum for Grades diseases would meet the case. The Order 11 and 12." to which the Honourable Member refers was drafted, submitted for His Excellency's (2) "The question of all student allow­ approval, and published late on the evening ances is being examined by Departmental of Saturday, February 9. It may be of officers in the light of the involvement of interest to the Honourable Member to the Commonwealth Government in an learn that following enquiries that I have allowance scheme for senior high school made subsequently it appears that it has students." not been necessary for the Council authorities to invoke these powers. At 1,.979 premises involved, inspections TEACHERS OF INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC, revealed that occupants or owners or agents PRIMARY SCHOOLS were present and had commenced cleaning operations in all except 20. In the remain­ Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked The ing 20 it was possible to gain entry for Minister for Education,- inspection purposes by contacting neigh­ (!) How many additional music teachers bours, relatives, or agents, and arranging and teachers of instrumental music were through them for the cleansing of the appointed to Queensland State primary premises. As I have already indicated schools this year and to which schools steps will be taken to withdraw this were they appointed? regulation in the very near future." (2) How many music teachers and teachers of instrumental music are STUDENT ALLOWANCES currently undergoing a course of training Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked The and when will they be allocated to schools? Minister for Education,- (3) Will any of them be appointed to (!) Is he aware that the maximum the Mackay North State School and the cut-off point for adjusted family income Victoria Park State School? 3404 Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974) Questions Upon Notice

Answers:- (3) Will the new measure be more ( 1) "During the current year seven acceptable to the States? additional teachers to teach music in the ( 4) Were the views of the States sought classroom have been appointed to the when the amendments were being pre­ following primary schools----Craigslea, pared? Lawnton, Edge Hill, Kippa-ring, Clontarf Beach, Zillmere North and Balaclava. (Nine other appointments were made to Answers:- fill vacancies at schools where teachers had ( 1) "From information received, it been operating in 1973). Twenty-seven would appear that there will be a con­ instructors of instrumental music who siderable redrafting of the Trade Practices have base schools but who work at Bill." primary and secondary schools, have been appointed as follows:-Brishane North (2) "It is understood that there will be Region: Stafford State,. 1; Kedron State, 2; in excess of 100 amendments, many of Aspley East State, 2; Kelvin Grove State, which are stated to be 'drafting only'. No 1; Maroochydore State, 1; and Clontarf very detailed particulars of the amendments Beach State, 1. Brisbane South Region: have been supplied." Sunnybank State High, 1; Southport State, (3) "The changes do not in any way 1; Mt. Gravatt State, 1; and one still to remove the obnoxious provisions of the Bill take up duty at a base school to be which is another example of the centralis! decided. Brisbane West Region: Graceville objects of the present Federal Government, State, 1; Jindalee State, 1; and Indooroo­ in so far as it purports to reduce state pilly State, 1. Darling Downs Region: powers, and is not acceptable to this State." Toowoomba East State, 1; Centenary State High, 1; Toowoomba State High, 1; (4) "No." and one still to take up duty. Central Region: Rockhampton State High, 1; and ARRESTS OF UNDER-AGE DRINKERS Berserker Street State, 1. Northern Region: Currajong State, 1; and Ainkenvale State, Mr. Davis, pursuant to notice, asked The 1. Wide Bay Region: Wallaville State, 1; Minister for Justice,- Norville State, 1; and two still to take up ( 1) Since the lowering of the State duty at bases to be decided. Four Instru­ drinking age to 18 years, how many arrests mental Music Instructors (Supply B) 1974 of under-age drinkers have been made serve at~Brisbane South Region: South­ throughout the State? port State, 1; Brisbane North Region: Ashgrove State, 1; and Northern Region: (2) How does this figure compare with Mundingburra State, 2." the similar period in 1973? (2) "Teachers-in-training (bonded) to Answer:- teach music in the classroom number ninety. These scholarship holders are due (1 and 2) "This QueSJtion should be to complete their courses at the end of- directed to another Minister." 1974, 20; 1975, 25; 1976, 30; 1977, 15; Total 90. The 1977 figure will increase by RETAIL PRICE OF SUGAR the number of students who undertake the three year course in the 1975 intake. There Mr. Davis, pursuant to notice, asked The are no instructors of instrumental music Premier,- in training." As Queensland is the major sugar­ (3) "It is not possible, at this juncture, producing State of Australia and as the to state precisely at what time teachers to combined plantings of each of the other teach music in the classroom or instructors States is infinitesimal by comparison, why of instrumental music will be appointed to did the retail price of sugar in Brisbane for the staffs of Mackay North and Victoria the last quarter average 46 · 3 cents per Park State Schools. The needs of these 2-kilo packet, while the prices in Sydney, schools will be considered with due regard Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth, with long­ to the claims of other centres and to the distance freight costs to consider, all teachers available." averaged out at a lower retail price for the same-sized package?

CoMMONWEALTH TRADE PRACTICES Answer:- BILL "The retail price of sugar is not con­ Mr. Chinchen, pursuant to notice, asked trolled by the Sugar Agreement between The Minister for Justice,- the Queensland and Commonwealth Gov­ (1) Has the Commonwealth Govern­ ernments. The Sugar Agreement stipulates ment's Trade Practices Bill, which was the maximum prices at which the Sugar first introduced in 1973, been redrafted? Board may sell sugar to manufacturers and wholesalers. This price is the same for (2) Does the new Bill contain more than each capital city. The retail price of sugar 100 amendments to the earlier proposal? is a matter for the grocery trade and is Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice 3405

determined by the extent of local com­ (2) Have poultry and fried rice been petition in different cities and in different proved the most commonly contaminated areas of the same city. In the grocery foods and have reports been confirmed trade, sugar is frequently regarded as of raw pet-meat having up to 50 per cent. 'a loss leader', particularly by the chain salmonella contamination? stores. A special low price for sugar is offered in the expectation that when people (3) Has the Queensland public been have been attracted into the store by this warned of these dangers and the further low price they will be induced to buy danger of storing pet-uneats and human something else and so increase the store's foods in the same refrigerator? total sales. Frequently sugar is being sold at different prices at the same time in the (4) Have the New South Wales findings same city. I am advised that the normal of heavy infections in stock foods such as range in the retail price of sugar in Bris­ bone meal and meat meal been publicised bane is from as little as 43 cents for 2 and the fact that antibiotic resisting strains kilos to as much as 50 cents for 2 kilos. There is a similar variation in other of salmonella persist in animal meats capital cities. If the average of these prices possibly because of the now heavy use is higher in Brisbane than in other capital of antibiotics in livestock health pro­ cities, I can only conclude that competition tection? is less fierce here." ( 5) If the findings are substantially true, will he ensure that every publicity is given CHARLEVILLE-BARCALDINE ROAD to the facts, particularly to country people Mr. Newton for Mr. Aiken, pursuant to who are more exposed to the handling of notice asked The Minister for Mines,- animal foods and meat for working dogs? ( 1) Is he aware that the road from Charleville to Barcaldine is showing signs Answers:- of wear as it collapses under the weight of heavy loads? ( 1) "Officers have drawn my attention to the article in the Medical Journal of (2) As this road was built for what Australia dated March 9, 1974, entitled today amounts to light traffic and as it 'Salmonellosis-an increasing Health is generally far too narrow to accommodate hazard'." increasing traffic, resulting in many vehicles becoming bogged when passing in (2) "The article stated that poultry has wet weather and also resulting in many been found to be contaminated but the broken windscreens and numerous acci­ overall incidence is impossible to assess. dents, what is the planned future of this Forty-four per cent. of samples of raw road? pet food were found to contain salmonella; whilst other samples of prepared food were Answers:- found to be contaminated there is no ( 1) "I am aware of the heavy loadings specific mention of fried rice." this road carries." (3) "The Queensland Health Education (2) "North from Augathella this road Council has given publicity to this problem is a proposed National Highway. The Commonwealth has not made any and has published a special poster in announcement of what funds will be made respect to it. Several possible problems available after June 30, 1974 for any of with food are listed and specific mention the various road classes. Until this is is made of the danger of storing pet foods announced, I cannot foreshadow what the in the same refrigerator as human food." future programme of works will inolude. This is a most unsatisfactory state of (4 and 5) "The National Health and affairs as the Commonwealth should know Medical Research Council is organising an that a State as large as Queensland needs Australia-wide survey to investigate the adequate time to plan for the next financial whole question of bacterial contamination year's operations." in foods. Departmental officers and the Queensland State Health Laboratory will FOOD CoNTAMINATION BY SALMONELLA play an important part in this survey. If Mr. Newton for Mr. Aiken, pursuant to the survey indicates that there is something notice, asked The Minister for Health,- to be added to the existing health educa­ tion programme, the necessary steps will be (1) Is he aware of a New South Wales taken. For the Honourable Member's public health finding that food infection by salmonella is an increasing health hazard, information neither the State Health the incidence in children having doubled Laboratory nor the Royal Brisbane in the past four years and the increased use Hospital nor the Royal Children's Hospital of ready-to-serve warm foods being con­ has noted any increase in the annual rate sidered a prime cause? of salmonella infection in recent years." 3406 Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice

INCIDENCE OF FoOT AND MOUTH (3) How many doctors or chemists were DISEASE IN HUMANS prosecuted during these years for failing Mr. Newton for Mr. Aiken, pursuant to to secure drugs properly? notice, asked The Minister for Health,- Is foot and mouth disease, of a strain Answers:- related to the deadly disease which affects (1 and 2) "Detailed statistical informa­ cloven-footed animals, now present in tion of criminal activities such as breaking Australia and affecting humans and, if and entering is not recorded in this so, is this disease contagious and likely Department." to spread disastrously to humans and (3) "Nil to date. Such action is stock? currently being considered in respect of a particular pharmacist but I would point Answer:- out that recent inspections of pharmacies "Except for the unfortunate similarity in indicate that the pharmacy profession is names, hand foot and mouth disease in generally complying with the Poisons humans has no relation to foot and mouth Regulations in this matter. As doctors' disease in animals. The human disease is cars are a source from which drugs may an acute infectious disease of childhood be stolen, members of the profession have which produces small vesicles on the removed the badges by which cars were named parts. It is not regarded as one of previously easily identified. Following the more serious infectious diseases and departmental approaches fewer dangerous no mortality arises from it." drugs are now being stored in doctors' surgeries. Action is being taken to see that doctors comply with the Regulations." COMMONWEALTH GOVERNMENT'S HUMAN RIGHTS BILL Mr. R. E. Moore, pursuant to notice, asked SMALL CLAIMS TRIBUNAL The Minister for Justice,- Mr. Ahern for Mr. Miller, pursuant to ( 1) Is the Whitlam Government's pro­ notice, asked The Minister for Justice,- posed Human Rights Bill intended to be ( 1) Since the inception of the Small binding on all State Governments and Claims Tribunal, how many claims have instrumentalities? been lodged? (2) If so, has he had the Bill examined (2) How many remain to be deter­ in detail and will its provisions conflict mined? with existing State laws? (3) Is the Commonwealth Government (3) In view of the widespread opposi­ introducing a tribunal in the Australian tion to the Bill, will he assure the House Capital Territory along the same lines as that the Queensland Government will resist that now operating successfully in Queens­ its provisions strongly? land?

Answers:­ Answers:- (1) "Yes." (1) Up to and including March 29, 1974, 663 claims have been filed." (2) "Yes, the Bill has been examined in (2) "189." detail and its provisions are in conflict with many aspects of State law." ( 3) "Yes. It is pleasing to see that the Commonwealth Government recognize the (3) "The Queensland Government is merits of State initiated changes in the strongly opposed to the Bill and will take law." appropriate action if it is enacted in any form unsuitable to this State." DINGO BAITS AND BoNUS Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked SECURITY OF DRUGS HELD BY The Minister for Primary Industries,- DOCTORS AND CHEMISTS ( 1) Has any application been made for Mr. Burns, pursuant to notice, asked The the distribution of dingo baits "1080" Minister for Health,- over the Aboriginal reserve, Bamaga? If (1) How many (a) doctors' surgeries so, has permission been granted? and (b) chemists' premises from which dangerous drugs were stolen, have been (2) As these baits have proved effective broken and entered in 1971-72, 1972-73 for dingo control but also allow an alarm­ and 1973-74 in (i) the city and (ii) the ing increase in wild-pig numbers and the country? probable destruction of Far-north Queens­ land fauna which he is at present aiming (2) How many of these chemists or to protect by legislation, will he increase doctors had installed legally required drug the dingo bonus to shooters as an alterna­ containers? tive to overcome the dingo menace? Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice 3407

Answer:- (2) Apart from general administration (1 and 2) "I would suggest that the costs, staff salaries and board activity costs, on what other items has the board incurred Honourable Member address his Question expenditure or allocated funds in any to the Honourable Minister for Lands." direction since its inception? (3) What is the total staff number of KARUMBA-JULIA CREEK ROAD the board, how many qualified building inspectors are included and where are these Mr. Wallis-Smitb, pursuant to notice, asked inspectors located within the State? The Minister for Mines,- ( 4) How many complaints against (1) As the present prawn season at Karumba has produced excellent results builders has the board received since July and as the transport of prawns by road 1, 1973? depends upon the state of the road from (5) Have all complaints been investi­ Karumba to Normanton and Julia Creek, gated by the board inspectors and how when will the road be in trafficable con­ many have been resolved? dition? (2) Will he arrange for any urgent Answers:- maintenance to be carried out should the ( 1) "T~e current balance in the bank need arise? account IS $6,052. Investments total $676,000 making a grand total of $682,052 Answers:- funds available to the Board. It is antici­ pated that expenditure in each financial (1) "The J ulia Creek Road is open for year will exceed income for the same limited traffic loadings but no date can period and the above reserves will be used be given for the opening of the Karumba to meet such expendhure. Budgeted Road as the country is still extremely wet expenditure exceeds budgeted income for and rain still persists." this 1973/74 financial year by $73,100. Establishment of additional country offices (2) "Maintenance will be carried out as soon as it is possible to get plant and men will further increase the Board's expendi­ into the country." ture." (2) "The Board has agreed to contribute $30,000 to the cost of training 56 brick­ ROAD RECONSTRUCTION, GOLD COAST laying apprentices." HINTERLAND (3) "(a) 23; (b) 9-Brisbane, 6; Gold Mr. Hinze, pursuant to notice, asked The Coast, 1; Sunshine Coast, 1; Townsville, 1; Minister for Mines,- Total 9." As all hinterland roads in the Gold ( 4) "674." Coast area are in very bad condition due (5) "(a) Yes; (b) 287. Of the remain­ to recent floods, with slips on the Beech­ der, 241 orders have been issued by the mont and Tamborine Mountain roads, what remedial action is being taken by the Board." local authorities and the Department of Main Roads to restore the roads to a safe and roadworthy condition? NEW BUILDING DEVELOPMENT, PARLIAMENT HOUSE Answer:- Mr. Yewdale, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Works,- "The Main Roads Department with its own forces and the local authorities con­ In view of the long silence regarding the cerned are making every reasonable effort proposed new building to be constructed to get the road system back into order. adjacent to Parliament House which will The Beechmont Road is open. The major provide up-to-date facilities for Members, repair required to two miles of the at what stage of planning is this project damaged and slipped road in the Tam­ and when will construction commence? borine area will be sufficiently repaired to allow partial use by traffic in the next Answer:- month. This is dependent of course upon "By his association with the Committee continued fine weather." of Honourable Members with whom my Departmental Officers consulted in estab­ lishing a planrring brief, the Honourable BUILDERS' REGISTRATION BOARD Member should be well aware of the magnitude of the work involved in docu­ Mr. Yewdale, pursuant to notice, asked The menting the project for invitation of Minister for Works,- tenders and the planning programme to ( 1) What funds are available to the such end. Progress is on schedule with the Builders' Registration Board of Queensland view to inviting tenders in January, 1975 at this time? and a start of construction in May, 1975." 3408 Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice

S.G.l.O. FACILITIES FOR REHABILITATION ADDITIONAL PRIMARY SCHOOL, OF WORKERS KEPNOCK AREA Mr. Yewdale, pursuant to notice, asked The Mr. Blake, pursuant to notice, asked The Treasurer,- Minister for Education,- (1) What facilities has the S.G .I.O. In view of the present enrolments in available for the rehabilitation of workers relation to capacity at nearby State primary in need of retraining due to their inability schools and considering the rapid expansion to return to their previous occupation? of population in the Kepnock area, when will an additional primary school be com­ (2) Are all workers throughout Queens­ menced on the land reserved by his Depart­ land in this category eligible for this type ment for that purpose in the area? of retraining and where is retraining carried out? Answer:- "No consideration has yet been given to Answers:- the establishment of a new primary school ( 1) "The State Government Insurance on the vacant reserve at Kepnock. Such Office does not have its own facilities for matters are however kept under continuous such retraining but the facilities of the review and the needs of the area wili be Commonwealth Rehabilitation Centre at fully considered when future building pro­ Taringa are utilised for such Workers' grammes are being prepared." Compensation cases as the capacity of the Centre allows." INTERSTATE CORPORATE AFFAIRS (2) "Yes, at the Commonwealth COMMISSION Rehabilitation Centre, Taringa, but subject to the availability of these facilities in the Mr. Armstrong, pursuant to notice, asked light of the general demand for such The Minister for Justice,- retraining. In addition, a vocational (1) When will the Interstate Corporate counsellor from the Commonwealth Affairs Commission come into effect? Employment Service visits the S.G.I.O. each week and interviews selected claim­ (2) How many States will be foundation ants with a view to placing them in work members? suitable to their physical capacities." (3) Are other States being invited to participate in the commission? ETHYL ALCOHOL AS PETROL ( 4) Have any other States signified ADDITIVE expressed interest in joining?

Mr. Blake, pursuant to notice, asked The Answers:- Premier,- (!) The Interstate Corporate Affairs ( 1) Is ethyl alcohol distilled from Commission has already been formed and molasses considered by experts to be a held its first meeting in Melbourne on the fuel improver far superior to lead additives 15th March, 1974. in anti-pollutant qualities? (2) Three-New South Wales, Victoria (2) Is Queensland already in a position and Queensland-and soon Western to enforce the use of ethyl alcohol as a Australia. petrol additive by invoking the powers of (3) The other States have been invited the Motor Spirit Vendors Act? to participate in the Commission. (3) If so, in the interests of the Queens­ (4) No, but the Government elect in land sugar industry and of the campaign Western Australia has signified its sup­ against air pollution, what action in this port for the concept. regard is contemplated by his Government?

Answers:- USE OF PETRIE PoLICE FOR ELECTORAL ROLL CHECK, PINE RIVERS ( 1) "If ethyl alcohol were used instead of lead there would, of course, be no Mr. Newton for Mr. Leese, pursuant to pollution from lead, but there would be notice asked The Minister for Works,- little difference so far as other pollutants (1) As Petrie police have been rostered were concerned." to carry out the electoral-roll check in Pine Rivers, what steps is he taking to (2 and 3) "The object of 'The Motor ensure that the police station will be fully Spirit Vendors Act 1933-1934' is to pro­ manned at all times and that there will be mote the sale of power alcohol. At present, no reduction in patrols? the manufacturer is not seeking any market through motor spirit vendors and in the (2) Can he give an assurance that the prevailing circumstances application of the electoral check will not be allowed to take Act is not practicable." precedence over normal police duties? Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice 3409

(3) If additional police are to be pro­ Answers:- vided for the duration of the check, how ( 1) "It is proposed to build a hall of many will be provided and from what residence in Toowoomba to accommodate police stations will they be drawn? approximately 60 country students attend­ ing the Toowoomba Technical College Answers:- under the block release system of appren­ ( 1) "Two detective personnel have tice training. At the present time Land recently been transferred to Petrie station Administration Commission officers are and a direction has been given that no effecting transfer of part of school reserve recreation leave is to be approved during R107 at Newtown, Toowoomba to the the roll canvass. With the benefit of the control of Technical Education Branch. services of these two detective personnel The portion of this reserve bounded by and a police cadet, who is employed at the Hillside, Bridge and Gladstone Street is station on office duties, it is not anticipated to be set aside for technical college that any great inconvenience should be purposes while the remainder is for oppor­ placed on the staff at Petrie Station by two tunity school purposes. To date no plans uniform personnel being fully engaged on or specifications have been prepared for the the roll canvass. As an additional police building etc. to comprise this hall of motor vehicle has been made available for residence." use by the police personnel engaged in the (2) "Country apprentices from all of roll canvass, there should be no reduction the trades at present receiving instruction in patrols." at the Toowoomba Technical College will (2) "Yes." be accommodated within this proposed hall of residence. The principle trades are (3) "It is not intended to provide addi­ Carpentry and Joinery, Fitting and tional police personnel at this stage." Turning, Electrical Fitters and Mechanics, Boilermaking, Plumbing, Motor Mechanics, Painting and Decorating and Panelbeating. USE OF MILLMERRAN COAL BY The completion date of this hall of resi­ SWANBANK POWERHOUSE dence will depend to a large extent on the Mr. Gunn, pursuant to notice, asked The availability of finance from the Common­ Minister for Local Government,- wealth Government in accordance with the recommendations of the Australian Com­ ( 1) Has he been advised by the experts mittee on Technical and Further Educa­ of his Department that Millmerran coal tion. Until such completion, country is not suitable for the Swanbank power­ apprentices attending the Toowoomba house? Technical College under the block release (2) If Millmerran coal was used, would system of training will be obliged to find it be necessary to alter the grates at the private accommodation possibly with the powerhouse? assistance of welfare officers from the Apprenticeship Office as is at present the case in Brisbane for some trades." Answers:- (!) "Yes. Millmerran coal is not suit­ able for the Swanbank boilers as they were LEASE FOR AIRPORT, DAYS GUTTER not designed for this type of coal." AREA, MORETON ISLAND (2) "Grates are not used in this type (a) l\1r, Bousen, pursuant to notice, asked of boiler. If it were burnt the output of The Minister for Lands,- the boilers would be greatly reduced. Also ( 1) Was a 30-year lease granted on stability of combustion would be a problem April 1, 1972, covering approximately 40 which could lead to boiler explosions. acres of land on Moreton Island, in the It would be impractical to alter the firing Days Gutter area, for the sum of $50 per equipment of the boilers." year, with terms that provided for the construction of an airstrip within two years? APPRENTICES' BLOCK-RELEASE (2) Did the original documentation TRAINING CENTRE, include a provision that during the term ToowooMBA of the lease the leased land should be used l\1r. Bousen, pursuant to notice, asked The for airport purposes only? Minister for Education,- (3) Was the lease amended in July 1973 ( 1) Is it proposed to build a block­ to change the purpose of the lease to release training centre in Toowoomba and, "Business and Residential" and, if so, why if so, have plans and specifications been was such an amendment made? drawn and where will it be located? ( 4) Were local residents notified of the (2) What trades will be covered by the proposed change, what rights have they to centre and what provision has been made object and what financial benefit did the to house country apprentices? Government gain by this alteration? 3410 Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice

( 5) If the lease is still for airport Answers:- purposes as well as business and resi­ ( 1) "A track from the town of dential, when will the airstrip be com­ Kooringal to the Ocean Beach intersected pleted? the area now held by Brian Alexander Cheras as Special Lease No. 36221. The Answers:- track was not a dedicated road and in ( 1) "Yes. A special lease was so granted itself was vacant land. Mr. Cheras, follow­ to Brian Alexander Cheras with an area ing a request made by him, was informed of about 37 acres and an annual rental of that my Department would have no objec­ $50 for the first rental period of ten years. tion to his providing an alternate traok at The two remaining rental periods of ten his own cost provided the destruction of years each will be determined by the Land vegetation was kept to a minimum." Court." (2) "The claim that work carried out in (2) "Yes. Such a condition is attached the area of Special Lease has caused to the lease." flooding of properties in the town of Kooringal has been investigated by Officers (3) "Yes. By Order in Council the of my Department. As a result the purpose of the lease was amended as stated. Surveyor-General has been requested, as a An Order in Council also included an area matter of urgency to make the sef'Vices of of about three acres of vacant Crown land a surveyor available to assist in establish­ thus increasing the area of leased land to ing the degree of the flooding problem." about 40 acres. The additional area was required by the lessee to erect houses and (3) "The changes to the purpose of the other buildings associated with his oyster Special Lease have been stated in my business and aircraft movements and the reply to a previous Question by the amendment of the purpose of the lease was Honourable Member." merely machinery to allow this use of the ( 4) "The public have no right to cross land." the area contained in the Special Lease ( 4) 'There is no requirement in the without the consent of the lessee. The Land Act for local residents to be advised leased area, is shown on Survey Office of proposed dealings with Crown land." plan as being approximately 500 links from high water mark." (5) "The usage of the land for airstrip purposes remains a restriction as a con­ UsE OF HORMONE SPRAYS, ANZAC dition of lease and I understand that the A VENUE, REDCLIFFE lessee will complete levelling of the airstrip shortly but grassing will not be possible Mr. Ahem for Mr. Frawley, pursuant to until next summer." notice, asked The Minister for Primary Industries,- (!) Further to my Question of March 6 regarding hormone spraying in Anzac (b) Mr. Bousen, pursuant to notice, asked A venue, Redcliffe, has the investigation The Minister for Lands,- been completed and what action is pro­ (1) Is he aware that Brian Alexander posed? Cheras, in clearing land under a lease issued for airstrip purposes on Moreton (2) Is he aware of the strong rumour circulating in Redcliffe that the person Island, has destroyed a road used by resi­ dents of Kooringal to travel from the town responsible for the indiscriminate spraying to the surfing beach? of hormones has openly boasted that he has influence with the Department of (2) Is he also aware that the clearing Primary Industries and that the investiga­ programme has caused severe local flooding tion has been quashed? in wet weather, thus causing great problems for local residents, including damage to Answers:- property and the threat of disease? ( 1) "A person who has been regarded (3) Because of these problems and local as responsible for spraying weedkillers in concern over the issuing of the lease and Anzac A venue in the incident, the subject changes to its purposes, will he instruct of the Question of March 6, has been asked his officers to take immediate steps to to show cause why his commercial overcome the problems and issue a full operator's licence should not be cancei!ed." statement so that residents who hacve lived (2) "See Answer to (1)." in the Days Gutter area for years can be informed of the ramifications of the decision to allow this decvelopment? PROPOSED AIRPORT IN BEACHMERE­ TOORBUL AREA, CABOOLTURE SHIRE ( 4) Has the lease area been closed to bush walkers and pedestrians who hacve Mr. Ahern for Mr. Frawley, pursuant to used this area for years? If so, what notice, asked The Minister for Lands,- distance fwm the water's edge may one ( 1) Has he received any information walk without trespassing on the lease? from the Commonwealth Government Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice 3411

regarding a proposed airport to be located each instance it has been considered neces­ in the Shire of Caboolture in the sary to proceed with the disposal of the Beachmere-Toorbul area? houses to permit the establishment of pre­ (2) Does he know if houses will be school facilities in these areas at the earliest resumed by the Commonwealth Govern­ possible date." ment and, if so, will compensation be paid in accordance with land valuations? Co-OPERATION BETWEEN STATE AND Answer:- COMMONWEALTH POLICE (1 and 2) "I have not received any Mr. N. F. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked information from Commonwealth Govern­ The Minister for Works,- ment Departments relative to a proposed ( 1) Are State police normally accom­ airport to be located in the Beachmere­ panied by a member of the Commonwealth Toorbul area." police when investigating offences or offenders on Commonwealth property? TRADES HALL BUILDING, BRISBANE (2) Is he now allowing State police Mr. Ahern for Mr. Frawley, pursuant to to again co-operate with Commonwealth notice, asked The Premier,- police? If so, on what date did such ( 1) Has any approach been made to co-operation and liaison again commence? the Co-ordinator-General's Department regarding a proposal to demolish the Trades Answers:- Hall and erect a new modern building? (1) "No." (2) Will the destruction of this land­ (2) "Apart from matters affecting mark be in the best interests of Queens­ security, liaison between the State and the land and can he reconcile this attitude Commonwealth police forces has continued with the many green bans placed on where necessary. Insofar as security is buildings of an historic nature in Queens­ concerned, the position, as previously land? stated is that any attempt by the Federal Government to interfere with the special Answer:- branch of the police force of Queensland, ( 1 and 2) "Legislation will be necessary will not be tolerated. Subject to this, any w enable the Queensland Trades and information regarded as being of assistance Labor Council to dispose of the present to the Commonwealth police has continued Trades Hall and its site. Those Trade to be passed to that force." Unions applying so-ca!Ied 'green bans' and hampering development elsewhere in the country are apparently unperturbed at the NEW CEMENT WORKS, BRISBANE sale and subsequent demolition of their old Trades Hall. They may feel that its (a) Mr. Lane, pursuant to notice, asked The coming down in a cloud of dust will erase Minister for Local Government,- from the memory of the people of Queens­ ( 1) In respect to the granting of per­ land the many misdeeds of the past which mission by the Brisbane City Council to took place in that notorious edifice. But the Queensland Cement and Lime Co. the people of Queensland will not forget to site a cement works at Meeandah, has that this was the venue of such happenings the council passed a resolution granting as the intimidation of Labor Premiers, of this permission and, if so, on what date anarchistic and communistic plots against was the resolution passed? Governments and society, and in recent (2) Has the resolution been communi­ years, of such misemble and despicable cated to him and, if so, on what date, activities as the Treason Room'." what form did this advice take and what were the terms and details of the resolu­ ACCOMMODATION FOR FLOOD VICTIMS tion? IN FUTURE PRE-SCHOOL CENTRES (3) If not, has the council conveyed Mr. N. F. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked its policy on the matter to him? The Minister for Education,- Because of the shortage of accommoda­ Answers:- tion following the recent floods, has he ( 1) "The granting of site approval under made available any houses purchased by the Brisbane Town Plan is a matter for the Government for future pre-school the Council Registration Board established centres? under the ordinances of the Brisbane City Council, the board being the delegate of Answer:- the council for that purpose. A letter dated "No. Of the sites acquired for pre­ March 11 197 4, and forwarded by the school purposes in areas affected by recent Acting T~wn Clerk to objectors to the floods, only three have houses on them. In proposed cement works at Meeandah states 3412 Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice

that 'the proposal submitted by Queensland the extent to which the Commonwealth Cement and Lime Company and your is prepared to support an extension of the objection have received the consideration joint arrangements which expire on of the Council Registration Board and June 30, 1974." after paying due regard to all circum­ stances, the board proposes to grant con­ (3) "Eligible applicants must be in sent to the application'." receipt of the age pension and, in the case (2 and 3) "I have received no com­ of single pensioners, the supplementary munication from the council in the matter." (rent) allowance which is paid by the Commonwealth Social Services Department to pensioners with only a minimum of (b) Mr. Lane, pursuant to notice, asked The income outside their pensions. They must Minister for Local Government,- be in reasonable health and capable of Further to his Answer to my Question caring for themselves and be currently last week indicating that the Government living in poor or too expensive accom­ is giving consideration to special legislation modation." to ensure that objectors to the establish­ ment of a cement works at Meeandah by ( 4) "The Queensland Housing Com­ the Queensland Cement and Lime Co. have mission does not hold any Crown land a clear right of appeal to the Local Gov­ in the locality mentioned." ernment Court, will this be provided and will legislation be introduced into the House in this Session? EXTENSION OF SECONDARY SCHOOL CITIZENSHIP COURSE Answer:- Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked The "It appears the Brisbane City Council Minister for Education,- believed and advised objectors that they ( 1) Will he consider extending the exist­ had the right of appeal to the Local ing citizenship course in secondary schools Government Court and it is understood to include consumer-oriented studies in that certain appeals have already been order to prepare young people for the lodged with the court. In fairness to these commercial pressures and difficulties which people the Government intends to intro­ they must face in later years? duce Legislation to the House before Easter giving objectors the right of appeal (2) Will he also give consideration to in this specific case. Othepwise objectors introducing general studies in basic law would feel confident in their right of into the course, especially in the areas of appeal but legal advice is that such an hire purchase, insurance, contract property appeal might not be sustainable." and consumer law? (3) Will he investigate the desirability of incorporating a community-studies HousiNG CoMMISSION AGE-PENSIONER course for all secondary school students at ACCOMMODATION, ROCKHAMPTON the Grade 8, 9 and 10 levels, which would Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked The include the present citizenship studies plus Minister for Works,- appropriate studies in consumerism and law? (1) How many new aged-pensioner dwellings are under construction or are ready for occupation in Rockhampton? Answers:- (2) What plans are there to construct ( I) "Secondar,y school courses are under additional dwellings for aged pensioners constant review. Consumer oriented and when will they be commenced? studies have been included as part of the new Home Economics Course, and no (3) What are the terms of eligibility doubt, are being considered for inclusion which must be met by applicants? in Social Science and other subject areas. An approach has been made to my Depart­ ( 4) What Crown land is available on ment by the Consumer Affairs Bureau for the south side of the Fitzroy River for the inclusion of a full course on consumer the construction of aged-pensioner oriented studies. This course of study has dwellings? been referred to the Social Sciences Advisory Committee of the Board of Answers:- Secondary School Studies for evaluation; (!) "Six single units and one couples furthermore advice has been given to the unit are under construction in addition Bureau that my Department is interested to the 10 units completed and occupied." in this course as a school subject for use in grades 11 and 12." (2) "The Commission is prepared to acquire suitable land in Rockhampton for (2) "Hire Purchase and Insurance a further project. However, we are await­ Principles are incorporated in Mathematics ing advice from the Commonwealth as to and Business Principles for study by Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice 3413

students in the junior school. The question (2) Will such legislation result in a of the introduction of general studies in substantial lowering of the level of home­ basic law into the citizenship education ownership in Australia? program in the areas mentioned will be referred to the Advisory Committee for (3) Is any action proposed by the Gov­ Social Studies for their consideration." ernment to challenge the legislation on the basis that it is ultra vires the Common­ (3) "This question will also be referred wealth of Australia Constitution? to the Advisory Committee for their con­ sideration. However, the inclusion of ( 4) Is he aware that the substantial extra studies into the secondary school fines proposed under the Act for non­ curriculum will have to be examined in registration of societies could discourage the context of the total subject situation. societies from testing the constitutional At the present time, it is not feasible to basis for the legislation in the courts on include Citizenship Education into all their own behalf? courses of study because of the total time allocation required for those courses. Answers:- Nevertheless, Citizenship Education is (1) "Yes I am concerned at the pro­ having wider application in schools, and visions of this Act, and I understand that the vast majority of students in State high organisations effected by the Bill have been schools who leave school at age 15 or at making representations to the Common­ Grade 10 level follow courses of which wealth Government regarding the matter." Citizenship Education is a subject." (2) "Yes."

COMPLAINTS TO CONSUMER AFFAIRS (3) "Not at this stage." BUREAU AGAINST HOME-IMPROVEMENT (4) "No." FIRMS Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Justice,- PERMANENT MEDICAL OFFICER, ( 1) How many complaints have been NORTH STRADBROKE ISLAND received by the Consumer Affairs Bureau Mr. Baldwiu, pursuant to notice, asked The against home-improvement or house-coat­ Minister for Health,- ing or cladding firms in each of the last three years and since January 1? With reference to appointing a perma­ nent medical officer resident on North (2) How many complaints have been Stradbroke Island- resolved to the full satisfaction of the ( 1 ) Have further applications been complainants? called for the position since the resignation (3) What are the names of the firms of Dr. Williams and, if so, how many against which complaints have been made? times and what was the extent of the coverage of such calls? ( 4) How many of these firms are no longer in business or have changed their (2) Has there been any change in the names? conditions of employment advertised since the resignation of the previous medical Answcr:- officer and, if so, what are they? (1 to 4) "I draw the Honourable ( 3) In the light of the spate of serious Member's attention to the Answer which accidents, some fatal, which have occurred I gave to a Question asked by him regard­ on the island during the last twelve months ing home-cladding firms on September 12, and of the heavy load placed on the public 1973. I further draw the Honourable clinic. as revealed in his Answer to my Member's attention to my reply to a Question last week, will he have more Question asked by his coi!eague the Mem­ attractive conditions of accommodation, ber for Isis on March 26 last." domestic and professional, completed when any successful applicant takes up duty?

EFFECT OF PROPOSED COMMONWEALTH Answers:- LEGISLATION ON PERMANENT BUILDING SOCIETIES ( 1 and 2) "I refer the Honourable Member to my Answer in the House of Mr. Ahern, pursuant to notice, asked The October 26, 1973, in which I indicated that Minister for Works,- Dr. Williams was originally appointed to (1) Is his Department concerned at the Dunwich by the Redlands Shire Council provisions of the Financial Corporations and that concurrently with his appoint­ Act presently before the Commonwealth ment the South Brisbane Hospitals Board Parliament in respect to permanent build­ arranged for Dr. Williams to conduct out­ ing societies? If so, have any representa­ patients' sessions in the Dunwich Nursing tions been made to the Commonwealth Centre for five days of the week and to Government concerning this matter? he 'on call' for emergencies. The terms 3414 Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice

of appointment to conduct outpatients' the Force to draw the attention of officers sessions have been the subject of correspon­ to the granting of this basic right of Aus­ dence with the Redlands Shire Council, tralian justice? which has been advised that the present remuneration compares favourably with Answer:- other emoluments paid to medical prac­ "There is no statutory obligation to titioners employed by Hospitals Boards and provide a communicating facility. How­ that an increase could not be recom­ ever, instructions have been issued by the mended. It would now be a matter for the Commissioner of Police directing members Redlands Shire Council to determine of the police force to render every reason­ whether it desires to readvertise the posi­ able assistance to a person in custody who tion and for the Hospitals Board to take seeks to obtain bail or to communicate appropriate action to appoint any success­ with his legal adviser. This assistance, it ful applicant to undertake the duties assoc­ will be appreciated, is rendered at the first iated with the Dunwich Nursing Centre. I available opportunity consistent with the am advised that since the resignation of efficient running of the particular watch­ Dr. Williams the South Brisbane Hospitals house and necessary security arrangements. Board has made a medical officer avail­ In view of the fact that instructions have able on two days of the week to conduct been issued and I have no information of outpatients' sessions at Dunwich." any genuine complaint, there appears no (3) "The appointee to the position at necessity ~or, issuing a reminder, 'strong' the Dunwich Nursing Centre will have the or otherwise. right of private practice. The provision _of facilities for the conduct of such practice is not the responsibility of the Hospitals BELGIAN GARDENS ESTATE Bo3rd." Mr. Newton for Mr. D'Arcy, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Lands,- ( 1) With reference to the Belgian REPORT ON LOCAL AUTHORITY Gardens Estate sold by his Department REPRESENTATION ON LOAN where the maximum number of lots which CouNCIL may be purchased by any bidder at the Mr. Batdwin, pursuant to notice, asked The sale is one lot and where the purchaser Treasurer,- shall, within two years from the date of With reference to his statement in the purchase, and to the satisfaction of the House on October 10, 1973, which con­ Minister, effect structural improvements on cerned a document compiled on an investi­ the land of a value of not less than $6,000, gation into representation of local govern­ how many houses have been constructed? ment associations on the Commonwealth (2) How many of these houses have Loan Council and methods of financing, changed ownership? has the report been completed and, if so, is it available or will he make it available (3) Have any of the blocks been resold to the House or to Members who request in compliance with the original conditions? it? ( 4) Has any extension of time for buil~­ ing been granted to purchasers of thrs Answer:- Crown land? "I have perused the business of this (5) Does he intend to have the con­ House as recorded in Hansard for Wednes­ ditions enforced? day, October 10, 1973, but failed to locate any reference by myself to the matter Answers:- mentioned by the Honourable Member." (1) "Twenty-four suburban lots were offered at auction at the Land Office, Townsville on June 5, 1972. The allot­ RIGHT OF CITIZENS TO MAKE PHONE ments concerned are situated about 300 CALLS AFTER ARREST yards south-westerly from Belgian Gardens Post Office. Departmental records indicate Mr. Baldwin, pursuant to notice, asked The that residences have been constructed on Minister for Works,- eleven of the twenty-four allotments." In view of some recent complaints by (2 and 3) "Records also show that two citizens who have been arrested or who improved allotments have been transferred have voluntarily accompanied police to and transfer of one unimproved allotment police stations, where they have been was allowed by reason of special circum­ charged and then have been refused per­ stances on an undertaking by the trans­ mission to make phone calls for advice feree to comply with the improvement and assistance, has the duty officer in condition." charge of a police station the power to refuse such requests? If so, under what ( 4 and 5) "No. The purchasers of these circumstances and, if not, will he consider allotments are required to effect structural having a strong reminder issued throughout improvements by June 4, 1974. It is Questions Upon Notice [2 APRIL 1974] Questions Upon Notice 3415

normal practice to enforce compliance with (2) When will the station be brought up the improvement condition and where it to approved strength? has not been fulfilled by the due date, purchasers will be asked to state their (3) As the approved strength is below intentions in the matter. Applications for the desirable number of officers to man extensions of time to comply with the con­ the station, will he increase the approved dition would be considered on their indi­ strength? vidual merits." Answers:- (1) "(a) 79; (b) 78." GOVERNMENT SALE OF LAND FOR RESIDENTIAL AND INDUSTRIAL (2) "A vacancy for one sergeant 2/C PURPOSES has been advertised and will be filled in the Mr. Newton for Mr. D'Arcy, pursuant to normal way after the closing date for notice, asked The Minister for Lands,- receipt of applications (April 15, 1974) ." How many (a) building blocks for resi­ (3) "A recent survey does not support dential purposes and (b) commercial or the suggestion that the approved strength industrial blocks were sold by his Depart­ of Toowoomba Police Station is below that ment in the last two years, where were the required to meet the work load. It is not, estates situated and what was the total therefore,. proposed to increase the income to the State in each category? approved strength at this time."

Answer:- "During the past two years my Depart­ ALUMINIUM-ALLOY MOTOR VEHICLE ment has sold in numerous centres WHEELS throughout the State, 1,280 residential sites Mr. Hanson, pursuant to notice, asked The for a total return of approximate}y $4·6 Minister for Transport,- million and 44 light industrial and/or com­ ( 1 ) Has he any knowledge of reports mercial sites for a total of approximately concerning claims that aluminium-alloy $795,000." car wheels, under impact, are more likely to fracture and crack than the tvaditional REPORT ON RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION steel wheels? IN STATE SCHOOLS (2) As many aluminium-alloy car Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked wheels are on sale through various retail The Minister for Education,- outlets and if the reports mentioned are ( 1) Who were the members of the correct, what action does he intend to departmental committee which reported take to safeguard the motoring public? on religious instruction in State schools? ( 3) If reports lack credence and sub­ (2) When was the committee appointed stance, will the public be reassured of the and when did it submit its report to him? safety of the aluminium product? (3) When was the report submitted to Answer:- Cabinet and is any further action planned? ( 1 to. 3) "I am aware of these reports concernmg the use of aluminium alloy Answers:- wheels. In fact, the question of the use of (1) "Mr. E. F. Gutekunst; Mr. N. A. aluminium alloy wheels came before the Adsett; Miss N. C. A. Alcorn; Mr. A. H. February meeting of the Australian Trans­ Anderson; Dr. K. E. Tronc; and Mr. I. J. port Advisory Council this year when a Weir." submission by wheel manufacturers was considered. Apart from new vehicles (2) "The committee was appointed in which must me·et design standards, the use November 1971 and it submitted its report of aluminium alloy or magnesium alloy in December 1972." wheels is under investigation by the Vehicle Performance Committee of the (3) '·December 17, 1973. I shall be Council. At the present time their use on looking into religious instruction in schools during my overseas visit and I shall make a roads in this State is permitted only if they have been approved by the Chief submission on it to Cabinet on my return." Inspector of Machinery who is very much aware of ptroblems that can arise if STAFFll'

LEGAL PROTECTION OF FIREMEN ON these stands are sufficiently out of reach of GENERAL RESCUE DUTIES the toads to reduce predation to insignificant levels. Whilst toads feed on Mr. Hanson, pursuant to notice, asked The honeybees, it is not completely accepted by Minister for Development,- all commercial beekeepers that stands are As many firemen are called upon to necessary. There are some who still place perform rescue operations at locations their hives on the ground. It is not con­ where no fire is involved, are they covered sidered necessary that an eradication pro­ by compensation laws and is legal pro­ ject be commenced on these animals tection available in action which could insofar as honeybees are concerned, as be taken against them for damage to pro­ adequate pmtection is available if stands perty or injury to persons whilst so are used. One giant Bufo i'vfarinus found in engaged? Warra contained ants, leafhoppers, grass­ hoppers, mole crickets, a range of beetles, Answer:- bugs, flies, white grubs, flying ants, termites, "Firemen directed to carry out rescue moths and, of course, honey bees." duties would be covered by workers' com­ pensation. All Fire Brigade Boards have public risk insurance policies to cover QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE actions in respect of claims for negligence. The statutory duties of a Fire Brigade are SUGGESTED RISE IN BREAD PRICES basically in relation to the protection of JV!:r. NEAL: I ask the Minister for Primary life and property in case of fire and the Industries: Has his attention been drawn to control and extinguishing of fires. In line an article that appeared in last Saturday's with United Kingdom and Australian Fire "Australian" stating that bread prices can Brigades, there is no proposal to place a be expected to rise again following a Bill statutory duty on Fire Brigades to perform introduced into State Parliament by him general rescue work." last Friday? If so, is the statement correct? Mr. SULUVAN: My attention has been CANE TOADS drawn to this statement, and it is not cor­ rect. The price of wheat has been $71.10 Mr. Newton for Mr. Rromley, pursuant to since 1 December last year, and the legis­ notice, asked The Minister for Primary lation referred to, which is only an exten­ Industries,- sion of the five-year agreement, gives no Further to his Answer to my Question cause for any alarm that it will have the regarding the cane toad, also known as effect of increasing the price of bread. So the giant Hawaiian toad, and as I have if somebody is getting on the band wagon received correspondence from Woodend, and indicating that the price of bread will Ipswich, on behalf of bee-keepers who rise because of the legislation that I intro­ are concerned that the toads are jumping duced last Friday, I deny it emphatically. up against and hitting the hives and There is no cause for such a suggestion snapping the bees up as they come out and I go on record as saying that some and that one toad killed by bee-keepers smart character is misrepresenting the contained 35 bees, and also in view of situation. the honey shortage, the drop in the export market and the effect which toads REPORT ON RELOCATION OF BOUNDARIES, are having on the livelihood of bee­ BURRUM AND CONTIGUOUS SHIRES keepers, will he have the matter of eradication of toads further examined? Mr. ALISON: I ask the Minister for Local Government and Electricity: Does he know Answer:- whether Professor Gates and his committee have yet concluded the report on the Mary­ "The giant tnad (Bujo marinus) has borough-Burrum and surrounding local been a predator of honeybees in apiaries government boundaries? Has ,the report yet since shortly after their introduction in been made available to the Minister and the 1935 and commercial beekeepers are well tribunal studying the Maryborough-Burrum 'aware of their activities. The accepted and surrounding local government boundaries method of preventing these animals from and associated problems? reaching the entrances of hives is to place two hives side by side on specially designed Mr. McKECHNIE: Professor Gates collapsible stands which are about 9 · 5 cm advised me last week that the report was (2 feet) high. Commercial beekeepers not yet in its finished form. However, he who manage many hundreds of hives have told me that he had sent out two unofficial found the collapsible stand, which have interim copies-one to the Director of Local been illustrated for many years in Advisory Government, and one to the chairman of the Leaflets by Mr. C. Roff, Chief Adviser Maryborough-Burrum Boundaries Com­ in Apiculture of my Department as most mittee. This report virtually was to assist suitable for the purpose. Whilst stands the boundaries committee in the collection do not save every field bee as the toads can of its evidence relative to the fixing of the still reach the low-flying ones, hives on boundaries in the Maryborough-Burrum area. Proposed International Marine [2 APRIL 1974] Park, Torres Strait Area 3417

PRIME MINISTER'S STATEMENT ON CONDITION of Australia, and to reiterate their wish to OF PRIMARY INDUSTRIES remain Queenslanders and Australians, and considering the interests of the people of Mr. WHARTON: I ask the Minister for Papua New Guinea in the maintenance of Primary Industries: Has he seen the item in their historic fishing privilege after they "The Courier-Mail" this morning which attain their independence and their other indicated that Prime Minister Whitlam has interests in the matter of natLJral resources, again stated that farmers have never had it this Parliament resolves to approve that so good? Can he inform the House of the negotiations be initiated with the Govern­ burdens of cost which have been placed on ment of Papua New Guinea based upon the rural industries since the centralised Labor following general principles: Government took office in Canberra? 1. That the inhabitated islands presently within Queensland remain Mr. SULUVAN: Prior to reading the therein so that the clearly expressed article in the Press this morning I had wishes of their inhabitants to remain anticipated that a question of this nature Queenslanders and Australian citizens would be asked. For that reason I have had can be fulfilled. in my bag for the last two weeks figures which I will quote to show what the policies 2. That an area of sea between Cane of the Commonwealth Labor Government York and Papua, whose size and c~o­ have cost the rural sector since assuming ordinates are to be agreed upon, but office. within the area bounded by the coast of Papua in the north to the parallel of Raised interest rates of 2 per cent cos1 9 degrees South latitude and to the south the rural sector $46,000,000; currency by the parallel of latitude 10 degrees 30 revaluations of 22 per cent cost $720,000,000; South and the parallels of longitude discontinued free milk scheme, $12,000,000; 141 degrees 50 East and 145 degrees raised telephone installations and rentals, East, be designated an international $12,000,000; phased-out dairy bounty, marine park. Within this area fishing is $27,000,000 over three years; increased wool to be reserved to Torres Strait Islanders levies, $13,000,000; tuberculosis and brucel­ and the people of Papua who shall have losis scheme, $6,500,000; meat inspection fees, equal rights from the low-water mark of $12,500,000; export incentives abolished, their respective shores, such fishing is to $80,000,000; accelerated depreciation, be subsistence fishing and minor com­ $12,000,000; loss of investment allowance, mercial fishing only and all other $8,000,000, and loss of benefits from capital exploitation of the natural resources of improvements and clearing, $20,000,000- the sea and sea-bed shall be prohibited. making a

Minister of the Commonwealth of Aus­ their wish clear that they did not want any tralia and the Chief Minister of Papua change in the borders of their world and of New Guinea." our State. The motion that I have just moved affects The people of the Torres Strait summed up the future of an entire people. For this their feelings in a very eloquent statement reason, I appeal to all honourable members through their spokesmen, namely Mr. Tanu on both sides of the House to keep considera­ Nona, Mr. Getano Lui and Mr. George Mye, tion of it above party loyalties. who form the Islander Advisory Council. They are present in the public gallery ,this Many honourable members have been to morning listening to the debate. They said~ Torres Strait, and I ask them to keep in their "We are friends with the people of minds the picture they saw of a unique Papua. We have shared ,their fishing island world; of a proud and independent grounds. But they have their own land, people who have kept their language and why should they want ours? If we lose traditional culture; and of the land and the our islands and our waters, we will fade waters on which they have lived and died for and our people will die. We will sing our untold centuries before our people came to songs in a strange land and our people this land that we regard as our own. will be no more." Honourable members will remember that Both peoples utterly depend on the sea for on 6 March 1973 this House resolved that their food, that is, fish, lobsters, turtles and it would not consent to any alteration of the dugong. Australian border with Papua New Guinea. Mr. Davis interjected. They will remember the reason for this resolution-that the Prime Minister '(Mr. Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I would not Whitlam) and the Federal Labor Govern­ know the difference between the honourable ment has decided arbitrarily that the border member and a dugong. between Queensland and Papua New Guinea Honourable Members interjected. should be moved from its present position to 10 degrees South latitude. This would Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: The honour­ place it just north of Badu Island and not able member invited that comment, Mr. far from Thursday Island. Speaker. As I do not want to offend him, I shall withdraw it. As honourable members will recall, the Queensland Government opposed this I repeat that both peoples utterly depend decision on two main grounds. The first­ on the sea for their food. They supplement and one of utmost importance--was that the their diet with the produce of their gardens, Torres Strait island people were never con­ but the sea is their mainstay. sulted or given the opportunity to express It is a fragile lifeline. Any disturbance their wishes before the decision was made. in the ecological balance could be disastrous In moving the motion last year, I said for both peoples. that it was the right of the Torres Strait It is well for us to bear in mind what the Islanders to decide their own future. In Islanders concept of "home" is. To you, Mr. February 1973, the Minister for Aboriginal Speaker, and to me, "home" usually means and Island Affairs (Honourable N. T. E. the house in which we live-the four walls Hewitt), and I visited Torres Strait to that form our residence-but to the Islanders consult the people. We were accompanied "home" is much more than that; their home by a party of senior journalists, who were is the whole island and the seas that sur­ at liberty to visit any part of any island and round it, the water surface, the currents, the to speak to any Islander they wished to. reefs, the sea-bed, the atmosphere and the winds. All ,this is what they call home. It The islands visited were Y orke, Murray, is with this mental concept that the Islanders Saibai, Boigu, Dauan and Thursday Island. desire to preserve the total Torres Strait At each island, assemblies were held, and area for the benefit of Torres Strait Islanders. included representatives from neighbouring islands. Proceedings were held in open The Yam Island conference resolved that council, with the Press party present on the waterways between the Torres Strait each occasion. The wish of the people was and the coastal areas of the western district summed up in the phrase that they later of Papua New Guinea be reserved wholly adopted as their motto-"Border Not and solely for the use of the two peoples, Change". namely, the coastal people of the villages of the western district of Papua New Guinea The then Federal Minister for Aboriginal and the Islander inhabitants of the Torres Affairs (Mr. Gordon Bryant) visited the Strait Islands, \vhich have traditionally been Torres Strait Islands at Easter 1973. I their grounds. They also carried a resolution again remind the House that this was after, that drilling for oil and fishing by outside not before, the Prime Minister had announced interests within their water be banned. his intention to alter ,the border. The result of Mr. Bryant's trip is well known to all In speaking about the problems that would honourable members. He received a very arise if this transfer should take place, I cold reception from the Islanders, who made quoted the Islanders' spokesmen, who ended Proposed International Marine [2 APRIL 1974] Park, Torres Strait Area 3419 with the lament, "We will sing our songs in Islanders and Aborigines for food. An a strange land and our people will be no exception was made for the Federal Govern­ more." ment's turtle-farming project. In 1973 I said thaJt the proper people to The motion establishes that Islanders and decide this question were the Torres Strait Papuans will share equally the fishing rights Islanders and their Papuan neighbours. I in their traditional waters. This, together said that it should not be decided over their with the setting aside of a marine park, heads in Canberra, Port Moresby or Brisbane. is the main purpose of the motion. The other parts of it relate to delineation of rights The Commonwealth professes to set great to the resources of the sea-bed outside the store by ,the rights and wishes of black marine park. It is intended that a median Australians, but so far, it has been found line will be negotiated under the principles wanting when put to the test. of the Geneva Convention of 1958. On 19 September last year, two groups­ The Queensland Government believes that one of Islanders and one of Papuans-met this motion is fair and equitable to the on Yam Island in the Torres Strait. There peoples most concerned. They have now is nothing new in such conferences. For been consulted-as they should have been untold centuries the two have met and by the Commonwealth at the outset-and traded. The Islanders were represented by have expressed their wishes. We are, in the Islander Advisory Council and by the effect, ratifying the decisions made by the chairman of every island. The 17-man representatives of the Islanders and the Papuan delegation included Mr. John Natera Papuans at the conference on Yam Island. and Mr. Anthony Siaguru, representing the The Islander Advisory Council has told us administration of Papua New Guinea. Also formally that they have their approval and in the delegation was Mr. Tatie Olewale, that of their people. Mr. Nona, Mr. Lui brother of the member for Fly and Minister and Mr. Mye are present in the gallery for Commerce in the Papua New Guinea today and are aware of this motion. House of Assembly. I believe that all other parties to this Outside observers were the Queensland question could accept the wishes of the Director of Aboriginal and Island Affairs, Yam Island conference as a fair and just Mr. P. J. Killoran, and Mr. R. Yarrow settlement of this vexed question of the of the department, and for the Common­ border issue. As Premier, speaking on wealth, Dr. H. C. Coombs. The purpose behalf of the Government, and, I believe, of the conference was to discuss the border the people of Queensland, I consider it an issue and the traditional fishing rights of honour to move the motion. the two peoples. The decisions I mentioned a moment ago were made at that conference. Hon. N. T. E. HEWITI' (Auburn­ During the conference, gifts were Minister for Conservation, Marine and exchanged in the traditional manner. The Aboriginal Affairs) (12.24 p.m.): I rise to Chief Minister of Papua New Guinea, Mr. support the motion moved by the Premier. Somare, later wrote to the chairman of I consider it one of the most important the Islander Advisory Council, Mr. Tanu matters ever to come before this House. As Nona, who is in the gallery, thanking him the Premier said, it affects the lives and for the gifts. The Queensland Government future relations of two peoples-the Torres believes that the Yam Island conference Strait Islanders and the Papuans. My infor­ last September expressed the wish of the mation is that it meets the wishes and Islander and Papuan peoples, and it recog­ aspirations of both-by the Islanders on one nises that wish. hand to remain Queenslanders and Austra­ lains and by the soon-to-be independent The Queensland Government believes that Papuan people on the other to retain their the way to fulfil its obligation to the Islander traditional and customary rights in the Torres people, while still recognising the traditional Strait. If the course of consultation had needs and rights of the Papuan people, been followed in the first instance by the is the motion now before the House. It Commonwealth, the so-called "border issue" expresses the wish of the Torres Strait would never have arisen. Islander people to remain Queensland and Australian citizens and to have their islands The two peoples concerned were the remain part of Queensland and Australia. proper parties to reach an amicable agree­ That is what we seek to do in this motion. ment that safeguarded both their needs and rights. This was why the Premier and The second part, the Government believes, I went to Torres Strait last year-one of is the best way to preserve their fishing many trips both of us have made to this grounds. Declaration of an international northern-most part of our State. We felt­ marine park would ensure that the grounds and our belief has been vindicated by sub­ are not disturbed and that fishing can be sequent events-that the Commonwealth had controlled. I point out to honourable mem­ acted in a high-handed manner in not asking bers that a precedent for this arrangement the Islanders their wishes before it made its exists. The taking of turtle and dugong decision and became committed to alter the is prohibited in Queensland except by border. 3420 Proposed International Marine [2 APRIL 1974] Park, Torres Strait Area

There have been subsequent denials about the waters of the Torres Strait are as border alterations, but they are cold, hard important to the Islander as his island. facts. Only the strong opposition by the Destroy one and the other, too, is destroyed. Islander people has made the Common­ For this reason, the motion seeks the wealth stay its hand. I believe the Islanders setting up of a marine national park embrac­ and Papuans regard the motion moved by ing nearly all of the strait. I believe that the Premier as a just and fair solution to in this way we have a chance to do what the whole question. few nations have done before. We will be The United Nations Charter lays stress able to combine for an indigenous people on the right of all people to self-determina­ the best of their traditional world and our tion. In this case, the people have determined world. what they want. I hope that the entire I commend the motion to the House. Parliament of Queensland will unanimously support their wishes as expressed in the Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the motion. Opposition) (12.29 p.m.): I am sure that the Premier, in introducing this motion, thought We have a unique opportunity to help a he would catch the Opposition off guard for people retain their identity, culture and some reason or other. I assure the House language intact. In many places, this has that the Opposition tries to act responsibly been lost with the advent of civilisation; in all matters. I also assure the House that yet, in the Torres Strait, civilisation Opposition members will give due regard to brought great benefits. The Islanders them­ any matter placed before them by the Gov­ selves regard the "coming of the light"­ ernment. In the past we have been great when the first missionaries landed on Darnley supporters of national parks, whether they Island-as a new dawn for their people. be on land or sea. In the past, many Some of the worst features of their culture spokesmen for the Opposition have spoken were eliminated, leaving the best, which have very strongly in this Chamber in support of endured. the declaration of certain areas as national It is hard for us, as city dwellers, to parks. Naturally, when we are asked to realise the value the Islander places on each consider the declaration of any area as a element of his world. He does not separate national park-- himself from his environment-it is part of Mr. Murray: International. him; he is part of it. He has lived in his world of sea, sky and islands for untold Mr. HOUSTON: I said "a national park". centuries-for as long as the Aborigine in When asked we will certainly give it due Australia and the Papuan and New Guinean consideration. in their lands. A warrior tradition has pro­ If the intention is to go further and duced a proud, independent people, expert declare a marine park, I assure the House seamen, and known throughout Australia that the Opposition will give it even more as hard-working and reliable. Their men favourable consideration because it covers not have journeyed to all corners of Australia only land but also water and all f_orms of seeking work, but, no matter how far away life in that water. Because of the mfluence they may be, nor how long they are absent, of winds and tides, water moves. If the their thoughts are always in the Torres Strait, body of water round a specific piece of land and it is to this area that they invariably is polluted in any way, it can affect water and inevitably return. many hundreds of miles away. On an international basis, that would be virtually Mr. Marginson: Didn't you want to give the absolute. Therefore, although I assure them away to the Federal Government? the House that the Opposition is not in any way opposed to looking very favourably at Mr. N. T. E. HEWITT: I have never made suggestions for an interna~ional park, I make any mention of giving control of the islands it auite clear that that 1s as a matter of or Islanders to the Federal Government. gen~ral principle. They certainly were seen by Torres four What has the House before it on this centuries ago when he navigated the strait occasion? The Premier has moved a motion that now bears his name. Early navigators, without notice, and he has not given anyone including Cook and Bligh, feared the straits, an opportunity to consider al~ of its ram­ for two good reasons-the reefs and the ifications. He held an extensive document warriors. As we know only too well, the before him and read from it and said, in reefs are still to be feared, even by big ships effect, "Cop this!" A few days ago the such as the "Oceanic Grandeur". Premier-! think it was by interjection, but that does not really matter-made it But, in these waters, the Islander was the very clear that, as far as he is con~erne~, absolute master. Through calm and storm, the Opposition is of no consequence m th1s through the nor-westers of summer that churn Assembly. I assure him that the Opposition it into a treacherous waste to the south­ believes it is of some consequence and has easterlies of autumn and winter, he knows the some responsibility in the Chamber. straits and its moods. He knows the ways of the fish, the dugong and the turtles, because he Mr. Bjelke-Petersen: We are quite happy depends on them for his food. This is why to let the motion stand over. Proposed International Marine [2 APRIL 1974] Park, Torres Strait Area 3421

Mr. HOUSTON: To make the position from the Islanders themselves, but it is very clear, I move- possible that. someone else could say, "Why "That the motion be amended by not extend 1t further?" Although the local adding- people concerned may believe that this is ', but that debate on this motion be the complete answer, surely the Opposition delayed for 24 hours.' " and particularly the local member, should have the right and the opportunity to talk That will remove any doubt about the to the people concerned. To my way of matter. I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, have thinking that is ordinary, everyday, common a copy of that amendment, and I hope that courtesy in the operation of our Parliament. the Premier also has a copy. If he has not, one is on the way to him. Immediately The Premier should have explained in the motion came to my notice I set the more detail the use of the word "inter­ machinery moving to have it delayed; let national". The honourable member for there be no doubt about that. Clayfield picked me up on that point. There is a vast difference between the two words. Mr. Lee: We had no intention of doing If it is to be an international park, surely anything else. that means that we are going to keep out everybody. I have no fight with that but Mr. HOUSTON: If that is so, why didn't if the Government does declare this ar~a as the Government put it on notice? I do not an international park it has to make sure intend to beat about the bush. The motion that it has the necessary power behind it. was brought before the House in this way I do not know how many aeroplanes the to try to secure some cheap political prop­ State owns. I know of one, but I do not aganda advantage from it. The Premier think it is armed. I do not think we have gave the latitude and longitude. How many any armed troops, and I do not think we honourable members know precisely where have any Navy. We certainly have a Police latitude so-and-so or longitude so-and-so is? Force. If the Government was fair dinkum, it would have brought the motion before the I am trying to convey the importance of House in the same way as any other declara­ ~his to honourable members. I am speak­ tion of a national park. Notice would have mg n~w only to the deferment of the motion. been given, maps would have been available That IS the reason why I moved the amend­ and anyone interested-Government and ment. The whole point is that it is not Opposition members alike-would have been just a matter of saying that we are going able to study them. I ask, "How many to declare an area a national park. It is Government members have studied this docu­ more than that. I think it would be a ment and studied the maps?" I dare say that very good thing to declare some of our many of them have not. That does not mean seaways as international parks when we to say that they will not support it. are in a position to say to everyone from other States and overseas, and have it My speech in this debate is not made on accepted by them, that these are our ter­ th.e basis of whether .or not the Opposition ritorial waters and we are going to do Will support the motwn. The probabilities what we want to do with them. are that it will. The point is that honourable members on this side of the Chamber do I am not suggesting for a moment that !lot intend .to be. steamrollered into support­ what the Premier wants to safeguard on mg somethmg simply because the Premier, behalf of these people is not right and or the Government as a whole thinks that proper. Without labouring the point, I b:y asking to have a look at it, the Oppositio~ believe the correct thing to do is for the w1ll lose favour with some electors in the Government to accept my amendment. That State. would give us time to look at the matter. If the Government wanted to extend the I have discussed the matter with my period beyond 24 hours, I would go along colleague who represents the area, and he with that. But I do not want anyone to has told me that the Premier did not discuss suggest that we want to delay the debate !he proposal with him. Surely if it is because I want to talk to somebody else. mtended to declare a national park in a I refute any such suggestions. Let the specific area of the State, one would expect Premier bring the matter on as quickly that the local member would be asked as he likes, as long as there is reason­ whet~er or not he supported the idea. A able time for my colleague who represents negative answer from him would not neces­ the area to talk to someone in the area. sarily stop the Government of the day I am quite happy to know that some of going a~ead with the proposal; but surely the Islanders are in the public gallery. At ~uch actwn -w:ould be only common courtesy least give the local member an opportunity m the operatwn of democracy through this to talk to them, allow the Opposition a Parliament. chance to look at the maps, and give every­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is far too one concerned an opportunity to look at much audible conversation in the Chamber. the document. I have not seen the docu­ ment. Before any motion is placed before Mr. HOUSTON: The whole matter of the the House it is customary for honourable area concerned is important to everyone. members to have a look at it and ascertain No doubt the Government has had advice what it is all about. 109 3422 Proposed International, &c., Area [2 APRIL 1974] Margarine Act, &c., Bill

With those remarks, I commend my to forget that the Saibai people, down amendment to the House. through the y•ears, have gone to other islands and to the mainland. I also ask him not Mr. W ALLIS-SMITH (Cook) (12.39 p.m.): to forget that this Government completely I second the amendment. In doing so, I eliminated old Mapoon and created new draw the attention of the House to the Mapoon without consulting the people. speed with which the Premier has moved They were forced into the boats and taken from one place to the other. Therefore, in this matter. I contrast that with the lack the Government should not think it is of speed that was apparent in the gazettal righteous in everything it does. of regulations under the new Act pertaining to the Islanders. There was a delay of 12 I appeal to the Premier to give us the months. Throughout that period, in reply time necessary to give the Islander people in to questions the Minister concerned said that the gallery fair representation, particularly the people were still being interviewed, and by their member. that they had not come to a decision. Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah­ If accepted, the amendment would at least Premier) (12.42 p.m.): I appreciate what has give the Opposition a chance to be a part of been said by the Leader of the Opposition this Parliament. I remember an occasion when and the honourable member for Cook. As the Premier, referring to the honourable I indicated, the issue is the very clear-cut member for Mt. Isa, said to the people one of retaining these people and their islands of that area, "He is in the Opposition; he within the State of Queensland. The purpose is not in the Government." Opposition is to give the people of both groups-the members are part of this Parliament. I want Torres Strait Islanders and the Papuans-the the Islanders in the gallery to know that right to fish in these waters and they will we are part of this Parliament, and that I know exactly where they stand. In order to represent them here. There are 82 members achieve :this we undertook to set up a marine in this House. The House is not made up of national park to protect the area for them only Government members, with Opposition and for future generations of Islanders. members being something entirely different. On the other hand, I can appreciate tha1 The Premier said a great deal about the Opposition will wish ~to ask questions and eliminating the right to do certain things study the issues generally, so I am very on :this proposed marine park. A great happy to accept the suggestion of the Leader deal of regulation will be necessary in con­ of the Opposition. nection with :this matter, because these people are actually living from the sea. They are Amendment (Mr. Houston) agreed to. fishing for their food. Therefore, will com­ mercial fishing, for instance, be allowed? Much thought and consideration will have to WINE INDUSTRY BILL be given to this and many other questions, such as pearl culture and the harvesting of INITIATION beche-de-mer and trochus. At the moment, the price of trochus is on the upgrade and Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ a good figure is being obtained. Are these Treasurer): I move- commodities included in those that may not "That ,fue House will, at its present be taken from the water? So many questions sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of are involved here that ~he haste with which the Whole to consider introducing a Bill the matter has been brought on makes it relating to the development of the wine absolutely impossible for the Opposition to industry in Queensland and for purpose< deal with it adequately. connected ,therewith." I want to touch briefly on one statement Motion agreed to. made by ·the Premier that is not quite cor­ rect. I was with Mr. Bryant on the tour of the a11ea last Easter, and I should like the House to know that Mr. Bryant was MARGARINE ACT AND ANOTHER ACT received very favourably everywhere. It AMENDMENT BILL was only the instructions given to the people of one or two of the islands that caused fJ:NITIATION them to be fearful. I use the word "fearful" Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ advisedly, because they were afraid of what would happen to them if they did not carry Treasurer): I move- out the instructions -they received, which, "That the House will, at its present incidently, took away the rights of people sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of who should have been masters on their own the Whole to consider introducing a Bi!I islands. .to amend the Margarine Act 1958-1973 and the Dairy Produce Acts 1920 ·to 1963 The other matter I wish to mention has to each in certain particulars." do with the Minister for Aboriginal and Island Affairs. I ask the Minister not Motion agreed to. Stamp Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Stamp Act Amendment Bill 3423

QUEENSLAND MUSEUM ACT stamp duty payable on cycle policies. The AMENDMENT BILL same person insuring his moror-cycle for $500 but wivh the greatly increased third­ THIRD READING party cover would now pay $2.12 instead of Bill, on motion of Sir Gordon Chalk, read the 37 cents he paid previously. Since there a third 'time. is no reason why the owners of motor-cycles should be treated in any manner different LIBRARIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL from owners of other types of motor vehicles, where the policy of insurance is basically the THIRD READING same, the amendment is necess•ary and, after Bill, on motion of Sir Gordon Chalk, its promulgation, motor-cycle owners will be read a third time. liable for the 45 cer1ts rate which is applicable to the owners of other types of motor v:ehicles. LAND SURVEYORS ACT AMENDMENT BILL The Bill also provides for a new section 5 ·to be inserted in the Act. The Stamp Act THIRD READING is in the process of being consolidated and Bill, on motion of Mr. Rae, read a third reprinted, and i.n the course of this revision it time. was discovered that the incor,rect refel'ence inserted in the amending Act of 1958 resulted LAND ACT AMENDMENT BILL in the deletion of an administrative para­ graph in the section. Opportunity has been THIRD READING taken at this time to correct the error. As I Bill, on motion of Mr. ~ae, read a third pointed out when presenting the Bill, the time. matter is purely an administrative one and has no effect on ·the liability of the tax­ payer to duty, or the principles which have FARMERS' ASSISTANCE ACT (AMEND­ been described to Parliament in this connec­ MENT) AND RECONSTRUCTION tion. AGREEMENTS (RATIFICATION) BILL The Bill also contains a very minor THIRD READING amendment to a heading contained in the. Bill, on motion of Mr. Rae, read a third Sahedule to the Act. time. As I have said previously, the matters raised are of only a minor nature, but are ST~MP ACT AMENDMENT BILL necessary measures, and I therefore commend SECOND READING the Bill to the House. Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the Treasurer) (12.47 p.m.): I move~ Opposition) (12.51 p.m.): At the introductory "That the Bill be now read a second stage the Opposition did not oppose the time." Bill. We have since examined it and found Repeating what I said during my introduct­ that it contains nothing more or less than ory speech-this Bill contains only minor the information outlined by the Treasurer, amendments to the Stamp Act so as to place and therefore we do not intend to oppose Gwners of motor-cycles in the SJame position, its second reading. as far as stamp duty on comprehensive I understand that the Commissioner of policies of insurance is concerned, as owners Stamp Duties (Mr. Bruce) is to retire shortly. of other types of motor vehicles. As this may be the only opportunity to do Under the present comprehensive motor so, I thank him now, on behalf of Opposi­ vehicle legislation, owners of moror vehicles tion members, for his courtesy and help insured have been required to pay 45 cents when we have approached him. It is also stamp duty each time a policy is renewed, appropriate to say that his interest in the but because motor-cycles were not included activities of the Public Service Rugby League under the Act when it was introduced, policies team is appreciated by those who work under taken out by motor-cycle owners to cover him. their motor-cycle have been charged 2! cents per $100 of the sum insured. In his reply, the Treasurer might explain one point that came to my notice when Such charge was of no major consequence studying the Bill and checking on former until insurance companies in Queensland administrative failings. Without stipulating recently raised the third-party indemnity limit the clause, I refer to the one that incorporates on motor-cycles to $200,000, which is in line new section 5. It virtually repeats what the with the cover available on other types of legislation formerly contained, and the next motor vehicles. clause inserts the part that was left out. In the absence of the proposed amendment As it is a separate clause in the Bill, will it provided for in the Bill, the change in third­ be given a separate section when it is inserted party cover for motor-cycles would have in the Act, or will it be tacked on to the ;;reated an inequitable situation in regard ro end of the new section? I do not know if 3424 Motor Vehicles Insurance [2 APRIL 1974] Act Amendment Bill it is proposed to preface it with "(b)", "(d)", concerns will be deemed to be licensed for or "(e)", or whether it is to be part of the purpose of the Act, and hence will be new section 5. able :to carry on this particular type of I raise this point only because I should insurance without any funther action so far not like to think that for years and years as licensing procedures are concerned. In we may have an Act that is, perhaps, not the cancellation or withdrawal of an insurer's legally correct. If the Treasurer can clear licence there are adequate safeguards in the up that point for me he will save my amendments .to ensure that no disadvantages speaking at the Committee stage. accrue to the insured as a result of cancella­ tion of the licence or the insurer withdrawing Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ from this form of insurance during the Treasurer) (12.53 p.m.), in reply: The point currency of a policy. raised by the Leader of the Opposition is technical in nature. I can only assure him There is also a minor provision in the Bill that, as I understand it, this is the way in to cover the continuation of representation which the Bill had to be drafted for present­ by insurers on the Nominal Defendant. ation to us. I take note of the point raised by him. The Bill, as submitted, accords At this stage I again point out to honour­ able members that the Bill is necessary with what the Parliamentary Draftsman has because of Commonwealth legislation, and advised me is necessary. its intention is to continue the Queensland Motion (Sir Gordon Chalk) agreed to. licensing provisions to the extent that :these have not been assumed by the Common·­ COMMITTEE wealth. As I indicated at the introductory (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Lickiss, stage, the question of no-fault third-party Mt. Coot-tha, in the chair) insurance and other aspects of :third-party damages claims are being looked at, and at a Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, as read, later date the Government hopes :to put agreed to. before honourable members a new approach Bill reported, without amendment. to third-party insurance. I commend the Bill. MOTOR VEHICLES INSURANCE ACT AMENDMENT BILL Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the Opposition) (12.58 p.m.): As I indicated at SECOND READING the introductory stage, the Opposition does Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ not oppose the Bill, mainly on the under­ Treasurer) (12.55 p.m.): I move-- standing that the whole matter is being looked at by ,the Government. Very few "That the Bill be now read a second people who have had anything to do with time.~' third-party insurance would not realise that As I indicated to honourable members at the the time is ripe for a new approach to this introductory stage, this Bill is necessary to very important facet of insurance. What fill a gap which has been created by the worries me most is how long the Government enactment of Commonwealth legislation con­ will delay in doing anything about the matter. trolling the activities of concerns engaged in I trust that something will be done during the field of general insurance. this Parliament, that is, during the forth­ By agreement with the States, the Common­ coming session. If it is left much longer, wealth legislation does not cover those the Government and the people could be insurers engaged in the compulsory :third­ confronted with many problems. party motor vehicle insurance field, and the In the past, if the Insurance Commissioner amendments presently before the House are refused to allow insurance companies to necessary 'to ensure that licensing of insurers increase premiums, some of them informed engaged in this field of insurance continues. their policy-holders to insure with another Previously, concerns engaging in compulsory company. This could happen more regularly third-party motor vehicle insurance were under this new legislation. Previously the automatically licensed under this Act, but Government, through the Insurance Com­ with insurers now being licensed under the missioner, had some power ·to argue that Commonwealth Act, this would no longer companies should continue to handle this apply. The licensing provisions of the Bill type of insurance. But as soon as insurance including provision for the exchange of companies have ,the right to separate registra­ information between the Insurance Commis­ tion for this ,type of business, they could sioner and his counterpart in the Common­ decide not to operate in this field, and within wealth will afford the insured person the a period of 12 months, cancel the policies maximum protection in so far as only those of all people having this type of insurance. concerns which are considered to be finan­ If that happens, the Government must act cially sound will be permitted to engage in very quickly. In the past, it has had to motor vehicle insurance business. step in and say to companies, "You will The Bill does not require that insurers retain this type of insurance because we want presently operating in this field apply for to make sure not only that claims are just but licensing under the amended Act. These also that premiums are kept at a reasonable Motor Vehicles Insurance [2 APRIL 1974] Act Amendment Bill 3425 level. We do not want all non-paying I ask the Treasurer whether there is a dis­ business to be carried by the State Govern­ cretion within the processes of the Act when ment Insurance Office." an offence has been committed against the Act by the approved insurer. The proposed Motion (Sir Gordon Chalk) agreed to. subsection (4) provides that there must be "a notice specifying the grounds upon which COMMITTEE the action is taken", and, in accordance (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Lickiss, with proposed subsection (7), the effect of Mt. Coot-tha, in the chair) that action is delayed until an appeal, if any, has been determined by a Supreme Court Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, judge. When an offence against the Act agreed to. has been committed, the Insurance Commis­ sioner can cancel an approval granted under Clause 4--New ss. 2A, 2B and 2C- the section. It is not suggested that he must cancel the approval. The power is a Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (1.1 p.m.): The discretionary one if there has been an offence proposed section 2B (4) relates to the power against the Act. If it were mandatory on of the Insurance Commissioner to cancel the Commissioner to cancel the approval of approval. I would like to have some clari­ an insurer who had committed an offence fication on it from the Treasurer, because against the Act, I should accept that there is provides a right of appeal to the approved would be no point in an appeal. How­ insurer if his licence is cancelled at the dis­ ever, if the discretion extends to an offender cretion of the Insurance Commissioner. against the Act the other requirements of [Sitting suspended from 1.2 to 2.15 p.m.] the Insurance Commissioner before he can­ cels an approval he has previously given, it Sir Gordon Chalk: I feel like Vince seems to be a similar discretion. I ask the Gair, with nobody behind me. Treasurer whether the requirements of notice and the rights of appeal apply to an offender Mr. HANLON: As the Treasurer expresses against the Act? some concern because he feels like a certain person who has been in the news today, pos­ Hon. Sir GORDON CHALK (Lockyer­ sibly arrangements can be made down at Treasurer) (2.19 p.m.): I compliment the Breakfast Creek to exorcise any evil spirits honourable member on the point he has from him. raised. It is quite an intelligent and impor­ tant one. We all know the calibre of the Before lunch I was referring to subsection honourable member. Since he has been a ( 4) of the proposed section 2B, which gives member, he has shown outstanding ability. the Insurance Commissioner power to can­ We know he is not seeking re-election and cel an approval granted under the Act. I seek clarification from the Treasurer of the this Assembly will be the poorer for his Commissioner's discretion when cancellation absence, because usuaLly he can read a Bill arises from the commission of an offence intelligently. against the Act by the approved insurer. The honourable member also referred to The proposed subsection reads- a remark I made immediately after the "Any such approval may be cancelled luncheon recess. I should be only too happy by the Insurance Commissioner after a to have a word with Mr. Whitlam to see notice specifying the grounds upon which whether the honourable member might be the action is taken and the date (not appointed to some high position at a later being earlier than 14 days after the giving date. I am sure he would be an ambassador of such notice) upon which he proposes for Queensland as well as an outstanding to cancel the approval has been served person in the community. I am sure he on the licensed insurer. is one who is worthy of selection. "Where pursuant to subsection (7) of this section, an appeal is lodged on or Coming back to the matter before the before the date specified in the notice, Committee, at lunch-time I discussed with such approval shall not be cancelled unless my legal advisers the point raised by the and until the proposed cancellation is honourable member for Baroona relative to confirmed by the court or the appeal is whether a person who has been convicted for any reason dismissed." under the Act can have his licence cancelled by the Insurance Commissioner, either It is in regard to the ensuing part of immediately after conviction or at a later the proposed subsection that I seek stage, without being given any right of clarification- appeal. I can see a set of circumstances "Without prejudice to the generality of arising in which a person may, at some the first paragraph of this subsection, the period of his life, have been convicted under Insurance Commissioner may cancel an the Act and then carried on business as an approval granted under this section to any insurer, and the Commissioner has said, person if such person has, in his capacity "I am going to cancel your licence." The as licensed insurer, been convicted of an person would then say, "What right of appeal offence against this Act." have I?" 3426 Oaths Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Oaths Act Amendment Bill

The honourable member for Baroona has qualified to attest affidavits, it means that referred to subsection (4) of the new section the legal practitioner is required to take his 2B-"Licensed insurers". I ask him now to client outside his office for the purpose of look at subsection (7), which says- having affidavits sworn before a justice of "Where an application for approval as the peace. This involves inconvenience to a licensed insurer has been refused or both the legal practitioner and the client, and where the Insurance Commissioner gives can create difficulty in the case of elderly notice of intention to cancel the approval clients or those who are hampered by injury of any person as a licensed insurer there or incapacity. shall be a right of appeal to the Supreme It is considered that the interests of the Court against such refusal or proposed public will not be prejudiced in any way by cancellation." permitting any barrister or solicitor of the I am informed by my advisers that that Supreme Court to attest affidavits. subsection, although it has been placed out I commend the Bill to the Committee. of context to some extent by subsection (6), does cover all circumstances. So my inter· Mr. WRIGHT ·(Rockhampton) (2.26 p.m.): pretation to the honourable member is that The Minister outlined very briefly what the a person who is a licensed insurer, being Bill is all about. At the outset, let me say convicted of an offence against the Act, that the Opposition would concur with his still has the right of appeal to the Supreme approach. We believe that gJ;eat incon­ Court if the Insurance Commissioner decides venience has been caused to solicitors because either to refuse him a licence or to proceed of the anomalous situation whereby a clerk to cancel his licence. in his office may witness or attest some docu­ Mr. Hanlon: Does it mean that the Com­ ment whereas the solicitor cannot. I think we missioner must give him the same notice would all agree that the validity of oaths before he cancels his licence? of allegience, oaths of office and all types of witnessing has been raised many times Sir GORDON CHALK: I understand that but they have always been accepted by all exactly the same basis would apply. He types of political institutions over many has a right of appeal, and he gets the same hundJ;eds of years. notice. That is the interpretation, and it will be recorded in "Hansard". It may not Very often the value of oaths has been the stand up in legal argument, but it is the subject of debate. I recall Government mem­ interpretation that has been given to me. bers standing up in this Chamber and I would never object to these words being criticising certain Federal members because used in connection with what I have said. they were not prepared to take an oath but I think that clears up the point raised by made an affirmation. It is well worth the honourable member, and I hope that what recalling that affirmations in lieu of oaths I have said will stand up to any argument are sanctioned in Queensland under section that arises. 5 of the Oaths Act. Section 6 of that Act allows for declarations to be made with the Clause 4, as read, agreed to. substitution of an oath by an affi!'mation. Clause 5, as read, agreed to. I will not go through the various provisions Bill reported, without amendment. relating to persons who have conscientious motives, religious motives or lack of religious beliefs and consequently do not want to take OATHS ACT AMENDMENT BILL oaths. Oaths are commonplac.e in our court INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE system. They apply in the swearing-in of jurors, witnesses and interpreters. They are (The Chairman of Committees. Mr. Lickiss, also administered to bailiffs and so on. Mt. Coot-tha, in the chair) Coming back to the point that the Minister Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister raised, I know of many instances where for Justice) (2.24 p.m.): I move- solicitors have been embarrassed simply "That a Bill be introduced to amend because they could not witness certain docu­ the Oaths Act Amendment Act of 1891 ments, whereas it is the task of cedain in certain particulars." people in their offices to do so. All honour­ At present, the Oaths Act Amendment Act able members no doubt have had applications of 1891 provides that any affidavit must be from articled clerks and people entering the sworn before a justice of the peace. The legal profession to be nominated for appoint· object of this Bill is to extend these pro­ ment as justices of the peace. visions to provide that any barrister or I did not quite hear what the Minister said solicitor of the Supreme Court may also -I was preparing some notes at the time­ attest affidavits. but I should think that what is proposed may In most of the larger firms of solicitors create some problems with the Supreme there will probably be at least one member of Court rules. I was advised only half an hour the staff who is a justice of the peac.e, and in ago that the court will simply not accept such these circumstances no inconvenience has a document that has been witnessed by a resulted. However, in the majority of legal solicitor. The Minister might tell us whether offices in which no member of the staff is he intends to do anything about that. This Oaths Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Oaths Act Amendment Bill 3427 is something that is certainly not covered are now a commissioner of the peace." He by the Oaths Act. Through you, Mr. Lickiss, then goes along to a magistrate who, I I ask whether the Minister intends to do this. imagine, administers the oath. I do not know for sure because I am not a J.P. But the Mr. Knox: I will be replying. point I make is that very little training is Mr. WRIGHT: I will await the Minister's given in these matters. reply on that point. I think it is probably right to give There is another anomaly in the witnessing solicitors power to attest to documents; but or attesting of documents. This comes back I am a little concerned that a solicitor might to the mle of members of Parliament, who attest to a document today and then, in a are accepted in the community as being week's time, become party to the case. Are responsible people. We are called upon to we going to allow a solicitor in such a nominate to the Premier's Department certain case to attest to affidavits or documents persons who could be accepted for appoint­ involved in the case? I think it would be ment to the Commission of the Peace in far better not to. Queensland, yet we ourselves cannot witness Summing up my points, there are now so these documents. While looking at the role many justices of the peace in Queensland of the solicitor here and while accepting that, first of all, I wonder why we do not that there is an anomaly that the solictor prepare a list of them, which would make it cannot witness documents, maybe we should a little more convenient for each and every go a little further and say that members of one of us to find a J.P. when we need one. Parliament should be given the right to Secondly, they should be given some train­ witness such documents. There may be many ing. criticisms of members of Parliament, but Thirdly, following on that training, they most people accept the fact that we have a should be made aware of their obligation to role to play in the community, and when we inform people of the consequences that flow sign a document we are bound by our from breaking the law in this regard. signature. We do not use our names or our signatures lightly. Finally, I think there is need to ensure that solicitors or barristers who are involved Whilst we accept the Minister's amendment in a particular case should not be allowed because we agree with what he is trying to to attest to the documents in it. I think that do, we ask him to consider the role that was the original reason why they were not members of Parliament can play with a view allowed to do so. to amending the Act at a later date to give members of Parliament the right to attest Mr. O'DONNELL (Belyando) (2.32 p.m.): these documents. I should like to support the remarks of the honourable member for Lytton. I feel that Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (2.30 p.m.): We seem the matter of appointing justices of the to be amending the Act for the convenience peace has gone considerably further than of solicitors, to make it easier for them. I was ever intended. do not have any quarrel with that. My argument is that we have 55,000 justices of I can recall that, when I was a boy in the peace in Queensland, but no-one knows this city, a woman was appointed a justice who they are or where they are. No list of the peace; headlines appeared in the of justices of the peace is available, so it Press of the day, and the lady put a must be very difficult for people who want shingle on her house to indicate to everyone to have affidavits or other documents wit­ in the locality that she had attained this nessed by a J.P. to actually find one. When honour. But this practice has fallen into we are considering the difficulties of the disrepute. How many shingles does one see solicitor, we should also consider the diffi­ today indicating that a person is a justice culties of the general public and provide of the peace? lists and details of people who can carry out Moreover, Mr. Lickiss, in your experience, these duties. how many males are prepared to admit that they are justices of the peace? I suggest The other point is that people who are very few, because from time to time they made justices of the peace and are required are asked to put their signatures to what to sign affidavits and other documents, should could be doubtful documents. Therefore, be given some training. I have never yet they are not prepared to admit to being encountered a J.P. who has issued the justices of the peace unless they know the customary warning, "Are you aware that if, people asking for their signatures. in making this affirmation" or "signing this affidavit you are attesting to something that One might ask, then, why there has been is not true, you can be fined or become such a great growth in the number of justices subject to other penalties laid down by the of the peace. It is simply because business Act?" I think it is necessary for a J.P. to firms have come to the conclusion that do that. The average person whose name privacy for their clients is important. My is submitted by a member of Parliament electorate, and possibly yours, Mr. Lickiss, and who, 12 months later, is made a justice would be symbolic of what happens every of the peace is sent a book by the association time an important firm, bank or other instit­ of J.P.'s together with the notification, "You ution changes its staff. There is an avalanche 3428 Oaths Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Friendly Societies, &c., Bill of applications to the local member to Mr. KNOX: That is quite reasonable. appoint new justices of the peace. This has People should be able to feel confident that gone on until we now have many thousands their private matters are not being peddled of justices of the peace who are not even around the community. Banks, too, have listed. I think we should take a very close J.P.'s on their staffs. However, this is not look at this. Admittedly, firms do not want always the case with a solicitor who has a their competitors to know their business. This small practice and, if the solicitor is pre­ is why they like to have at least one member cluded from becoming a J.P., embarrassment of their staff commissioned as a J.P. to could be caused to a client. It is on this witness documents that are important to basis that I am introducing this measure. them. In a State such as Queensland, which As to the Supreme Court rules, we put is highly decentralised and has a com­ our proposal to the Chief Justice, and he is paratively small population, there are natur­ quite amenable to changing the rules. ally very many justices of the peace. We know that centuries ago justices of the peace Mr. Wright: Will this be so whether or not in England enjoyed a very high rating in the solicitor represents the client who signs the community whereas these days their the document? position counts for very little. Many firms and companies have one of their staff Mr. KNOX: Yes. At present a solicitor's appointed as a J.P. for the sole purpose of clerk can attest a document, so that the having him witness signatures. The Minister relationship between solicitor and client is should have a very close look at the method no different. After all, it is the firm that of appointment of justices of the peace. is representing the client. The honourable member has suggested that Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister members of Parliament might be able to for Justice) (2.36 p.m.), in reply: As on do this. If a member is a J.P.-as most the introduction of any amendment, hon­ members are-there is no problem. ourable members have had the opportunity When it comes to attesting a document, to discuss certain aspects of this measure there is an Act which covers the circumstances that are of concern to them. under which the attestation takes place. I The appointment of justices of the peace, think we have to accept that an oath is however, comes under the Premier's adminis­ properly made. The question of whether it trative control, so I am not in a position to is a solicitor or a solicitor's clerk is not of make any comment regarding the number great material importance as long as the of J.P.'s or the service they provide. rules have been observed. As there have been no problems with solicitors' clerks I think it has become obvious that the attesting documents and statements, I do not persons in relation to whom this legislation envisage any problems arising when solicitors is being introduced are principally employees do it. I reiterate that the Chief Justice is in solicitors' offices. In many such offices amenable to the suggestion. the clerks are J.P.'s and attend to those Motion (Mr. Knox) agreed to. matters that normally require attesting. How­ Resolution reported. ever, there are a number of small offices, particularly in country areas, where this is frequently not a practical arrangement. This FIRST READING has caused some embarrassment to clients Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. more than to the solicitors, and it is on Knox, read a first time. the clients' behalf rather than in the solicitors' interests that I am seeking to make this FRLENDLY SOCIETIES ACT amendment. If it is accepted, clients will AMENDMENT BILL not have to traipse around to a nearby shop or perhaps to someone's back room to have INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE their signatures witnessed. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Lickiss, Mt. Coot-tha, in the chair) Mr. O'Donnell: They don't have to do that; there are so many J.P's in these Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister companies. for Justice) (2.43 p.m.): I move- "That a Bill be introduced to amend Mr. KNOX: That may be so, but they the Friendly Societies Act 1913-1970 in are not always conveniently placed. A certain particulars.'' solicitor might have knowledge of two or To lead to a better understanding of the three J.P.'s in his locality. Police, too, functions and objects of friendly societies in quite often call upon their services, and this day and age, it is necessary to turn might be required to walk down the street to their very origin. to someone who either works or lives two doors away. Friendly Societies were modelled on the mediaeval guilds the property and funds of Mr. O'Donnell: The problem is that Prim­ which were wrecked and confiscated by Henry ary Producers' Co-operative Association, for VIII about 1550. The last recorded guild was example, does not want a fellow to have to in 1628 and the earliest friendly society can walk across the road to Dalgetys. be traced to 1634. Friendly Societies Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3429

Originally these societies were institutions mon~y, it is proposed to increase these of mutual benevolence and sprang from maximum amounts to $2,000 and $200 small bodies of men who, as neighbours respectively. brought together by similar occupations, It is also proposed to increase from $400 shared 1he joys and sorrows of their day to $1,000 the amount a member may nomin­ and gave each other a helping hand in ate any person to be paid on the member's times when illness or death occasioned extra expense. death. At the close of the 18th century it became Occasions have arisen recently where per­ a practice for these men to make a donation sons have been induced to enter into arrange­ whenever anyone fell sick and was unable ments with friendly societies as a result of to follow his employment. When more than false or misleading statements by persons one was sick at the same time, the members acting for friendly societies from other States. could not afford to donate to both and so The Bill will stamp out this practice by the weekly donation came into being. providing for it to be an offence for any person to make such false or misleading It is from these humble beginnings that statements. large and permanent institutions arose. These societies found themselves faced with prob­ The remaining provisions of the Bill are lems of figures and mathematics, of adminis­ mainly machinery ones and include amend­ tration and finance, of which they had never ments to the Act to provide for an increase dreamt in the early days. This eventually from one-half to three-quarters in the pro­ led to the introduction, in 1793, of legislation portion of benefit funds which a society may for their encouragement and relief. expend on land and buildings. The ideals and knowledge of these societies I commend the motion to the Committee. were brought to Australia and branches were quickly established. The regulation of Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (2.47 p.m.): friendly societies in Queensland is governed In introducing the Bill, the Minister gave by the Friendly Societies Act. a historical outline. This was fitting because As the law relating to these societies friendly societies have made a valuable con­ has been refined from time to time it is tribution to society, especially in helping the purpose of the Bill to refine the Act others in the co-operative role they have further in the light of present-day economic taken upon themselves. circumstances and administrative change. The Minister outlined briefly-! think this The Bill provides for additional benefits is a great pity-what seemed to be a number to which a member may contribute, such of very important proposals. He said that as dental services, optical services, home the changes suit present-day circumstances nursing, supply of hearing aids, artificial and that he desires to remove certain limbs and surgical appliances, and holiday restrictions. accommodation. He mentioned increasing the amount of The maximum annuity benefit is to be money societies can spend on building invest­ increased and it is proposed to extend the ments and so on. Some weeks ago people scope of funeral benefits so th&t a member from these societies approached me and may contribute to a benefit which will cover said that they had made various recom­ the total cost of a funeral. mendations that would be brought forward To enable the Registrar of Friendly by the Minister at a later date. It seems Societies to better control the activities of that pressure for some changes has the societies and protect the interests of been applied by both the public and the their members, the Bill will require societies societies. The benefits payable to contri­ to notify him in relation to proposed deal­ butors or members have not been sufficient ings with land and building, provide for in today's economic circumstances. the control of bank accounts of societies where it appears to the registrar that moneys I was pleased to hear the Minister say have been, are being or are likely to be that an extension will be made into optical misappropriated, remove provision for services, dental services and holiday accom­ societies to be exempted and require those modation. I hope it goes further and covers societies to register. the provision of artificial limbs. In my area, a 23-year-old man is wearing an arti­ In 1970 the Act was amended to enable ficial leg that is 4 ins. shorter than his societies to provide group sickness benefits. other one. The artificial foot he puts one It has been found that the restrictions shoe on is about three sizes smaller than imposed are such that no society has pro­ his own foot. This is so simply because vided this benefit. It is proposed to remove he cannot get assistance. Apparently, because these restrictions so that the scheme will such assistance is available in Victoria, some­ be more attractive to participants. one in that State advised him to join a At the present time the maximum interest friendly society so that an artificial limb a member may hold in a loan fund is could be made available to him. I do not $1,000 and the maximum unsecured loan know if the Minister intends to extend this that can be made to a member from that legislation to cover the provision of artificial fund is $100. In view of the lessened value of limbs. I certainly hope so. 3430 Friendly Societies Act (2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill

This is probably also a role for the Health can be increased, and there is no reason Department. We always seem to be giving why the Opposition would oppose such assistance to certain individuals. A very amendments; we realise that money values important problem is the great difficulty fluctuate continually. people have in obtaining artificial limbs I ask the Minister to consider one recom­ because of their huge cost. I have had this mendation that I believe was made to him experience with one man in my area. He by the societies, that is, that funeral benefits suffered great embarrassment in going to be considered. At the moment the benefit work. His colleagues asked why he could is about $50. If anyone has had a relative not get assistance. Apparently he is pre­ die recently, he would know that the actual cluded under the means test because of the charge is much greater. In most instances amount he earns and the fact that he owns it would be from $150 to $300. Therefore, a car. I would hope, now that the Friendly I suggest that this be very carefully studied. Societies Act has been reviewed, that the Minister might suggest to the Minister for Finally, if consideration is being given to Health that he review his attitude towards extending the range of benefits-and I stress the assistance available. emphatically that this is a personal view­ the extension of benefits into chiropractic Returning to the point of allowing a services should be looked at. I realise that greater proportion of funds to be invested I could start a heated debate about the -the Minister said quickly that it is going value of chiropractic services, but I know to be extended from half, which is now thousands of people have spent thousands allowed, to three-quarters. This may be good of dollars for treatment by chiropractors in the long term for the subscribers and and gained greatly from it. I can see no members of the society, but I ask: what reason why such services should not be really is the role of the societies? To my covered. One pays $4 or $5 when one walks mind, it should be such that maximum through the chiropractor's door to consult benefit is given to all members. The societies him. He insists on payment in cash. I suppose should ensure that the members have to pay that is fair enough. Personally, I would the least possible amount for the benefit like to see a benefit available to those received. patients. If it comes to a comparison of Through you, Mr. Chairman, I ask the what one gets from a doctor and what one Minister whether the proportion he mentioned gets from a chiropractor, I ask honourable was three-quarters. members to bear in mind that doctors usually Mr. Knox: Yes. bury their mistakes. I would ask the Minister to consider my request. If the friendly Mr. WRIGHT: If we are to spend three­ societies are prepared to extend their benefits, quarters of health funds on buildings, it is I believe that this is a very practical area quite obvious that maximum benefits will into which they could extend them-an not be available to subscribers. Therefore, area of great benefit to the community as the Opposition will look closely at this a whole. aspect of the matter, regardless of the recommendations made to the Minister by Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (2.54 p.m.): The the societies. I believe that this type of Minister spoke of extending funeral benefits, thing affects the interest of the societies which is an area that causes me concern. and the public image they develop. People I think Brisbane has two major funeral do not like the idea of friendly societies companies that run an operation of a friendly and medical benefit groups owning large society type-Metropolitan and Gows. I think buildings, buying land and becoming involved one pays approximately $70 to one for a in real estate and development, which is the funeral and to the other, approximately $90. image that many people hold, I am afraid. However, the cost of a funeral today is about As I said, such investment is to the long­ $350 to $400. term benefit of the members, but there are I agree with the Minister that extending some dangers. If the Bill is enacted-and, the range of funeral benefits payable by unfortunately, in this place it will be because friendly societies is a good idea. However, it will be passed on numbers-! hope the a number of very important steps must be registrar will regularly check that these taken. Firstly, there should be some sort moneys are not wasted and, moreover, that of unitary base value so that people are there are sufficient moneys left in the funds aware when they contribute that if dad dies to enable them to continue-in other words, at age 60 or 65, a certain lump sum will to ensure that the funds are not placed in be payable in accordance with his age and danger. the length of time he has been a member. The Minister said that the Bill will update They must know what they have to pay in many financial aspects. He spoke about the and what the payment out is likely to be. amount of money paid to beneficiaries on It ought to be made quite clear also that, someone's death. I think he said something if a person joins a friendly society funeral like $400 to $1,000. The Opposition agrees benefit fund, the full benefit will be available that there should be an increase. The present irrespective of who the funeral director is. limit of $1,000 for loans is certainly not A person who lives in Brisbane and pays into sufficient. With unsecured loans, I think a fund for years may decide, in the last few the figure is reduced to about $200. This years of his life, to shift out into .the bush Friendly Societies Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3431 and then find that, because of something after year, to Nundah. After her mother died, written into the contract with the friendly the agent came out and told my sister-in-law socie,ty, the full amount of funeral benefit that she could collect a certain amount of will not be paid. funeral benefit. In addition, the payment should be directed I referred the matter to the Registrar of to the relatives of the person who dies, not Friendly Societies, who, of course, immedi­ to the funeral director. People are very Mely supported the society. I then sent concerned because the friendly society says the matter to the Minister-! ,fuink it was to them, "Don't worry about that. We pay the present Minister for Justice-and asked it direct to the funeral director concerned." him to take it fmther, and the friendly The money should go to the relatives, who society finally paid back some of the money would then be able to make the necessary to her. That was only one case. arrangements. There is a feeling that funeral In hundreds of other cases people were directors and the companies concerned set not game to go to friendly societies and ask a certain price to suit the type of friendly for their money back. These societies were society benefit involved and that the person accepting money from the widows whose concerned does not really get the benefit funeral benefits were fully paid up when their for which he paid. It is believed that the husbands died. The Minister for Justice, in $70, or whatever the figure might be, is not the case to which I referred, looked back deducted from the total funeral cost, because through the records of the company and people receive a bill for $250 bearing the found that it had been accepting money from notation, "Less the amount of money already my sister-in-law year after year. The agent received from the friendly society". of the society spoke to my sister-in-law in The arrangements made with friendly the yard after her mother died and lied to societies relative to funeral benefits are very her. He abused her when she said that unsatisfactory, and I think that a general he was a liar, fhat the society should not tightening up is needed. In my opinion, the have been collecting the money for years. companies have hidden many facts from their That indicates what goes on in some friendly contributors. Many old people and others societies. on low incomes who are paying a few cents a week to ensure that they are properly Mr. Lee: Name them. buried when they die are very disturbed Mr. JENSEN: I just cannot give the full about what is happening now. They do not name of the company. The Minister knows want to be buried as paupers. To say the it quite well. It is in his files. Had I least, there is general concern in the com­ known the Bill was coming on, 1 could have munity about funeral benefits made available looked up the records and supplied all the by friendly societies. details. How many others are like that? Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (2.57 p.m.): I Most of them are secret societies like lodges. am very interested in the proposed Bill. In They should be wiped out. I believe in my opinion, the Minister would have done a being straight out in my dealings. I do greater service to the State if he had intro­ not have to hide behind doors or take any duced a Bill to abolish friendly societies. oaths. It is a pity that the Minister did As soon as a big flood occurs, people call not introduce a Bill today to join with the for the establishment of a national disaster Federal Government in a national health scheme. Although health is a matter of daily scheme to provide full sickness benefits, concern to everyone in the community and including the provision of artificial limbs and a disas,ter might occur only once in a genera· funeral benefits. These should be part of tion, arguments are advanced against the a national health scheme, not something for establishment of a national health scheme. every little society that wants to build up The attitude seems to be, "That's socialism. its own funds. How many of these funds We can't have that." People prefer to have are there now-198? all the Httle friendly societies and the other Mr. Murray: 197. 198 schemes running national health. The Committee is now discussing friendly Mr. JENSEN: The honourable member societies and the funeral benefits provided for Clayfield would know the figure. If by them, and I bring to its attention a case he says 197, that would be right. that I referred to the Minister about three years ago. Mr. Lee interjected. My sister-in-law was paying money to a Mr. JENSEN: I was very close. I do friendly society for funeral benefits for her not mind being out when I am as close mother. She had been paying that money as that, although of course when a punter in for nearly 15 years when in fact she at the T.A.B. backs a horse and it is beaten should not have been paying one penny by half a nose, he does not collect. because the contribution was fully paid when her father died. The agent did not tell I am all for a national health scheme. It my sister-in-law one word about that. Further, should be part of everyday life as we have when she could have been paying her con­ to bear these matters in mind every day of tributions in Queen Street, she made sure that our Jives. Natural disasters might occur she bought postal notes and sent them, year only once in a generation. If a volcano 3432 Friendly Societies Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill

erupts in New Zealand, the people have a That is what we should be fighting for today national disaster scheme to call upon. They rather than introducing a Bill to increase the are 100 years ahead of us. New Zealand amount of funeral benefit from $100 to has had a national disaster scheme and a $200. Next week funerals will cost $400. national health scheme for years. Although Then the funeral directors will increase probably a volcanic eruption occurs there their charges from $250 to $400 or $500. only once in a generation, just as we have As soon as the friendly societies increase a major flood in Brisbane once in a genera­ the benefits a bit a situation similar to that tion. in medical benefits will arise-the funeral Mr. Hodges: Do you think it should apply directors will put up their prices. to chiropractors? Mr. Hodges: These societies have been Mr. JENSEN: No. Some of the chiro­ operating for more than 300 years. Wouldn't practors might have something behind them, you say that the benefits have been satisfact­ but I wouldn't know. I would have to ory? look into that. I do not know what the Mr. JENSEN: We could say plenty of honourable member for Rockhampton said. things. Farmers have been digging in their I had to go to a chiropractor once. fields with hoes for 300 years. What makes that satisfactory today? I thi.nk it is unsatis­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. factory in the age of technology in which Wharton): Order! I would like the hon­ we live. We should be moving forward. But ourable member to deal with the Friendly we are still supporting these little societies Societies Act. which will pay a little more for a funeral sim­ ply to have the extra benefit snapped up by Mr. JENSEN: We are debating whether the funeral director. It will not make any this Bill should be introduced. That is difference except that contributors will pay what I am talking about. in a bit more. About eight years ago in Mossman I We should be checking on these friendly slipped a disc in my back. A doctor in societies to see how many widows are still Mossman told me to go to a chiropractor paying for funeral benefits after their hus­ to get it fixed-a Mr. Sche!lberg. When I bands are dead. told my doctor in Bundaberg about it he wanted to know the name of the doctor Mr. Burns: They pay for their funeral four so that he could report him to the A.M.A. or five times. I told my doctor that the doctor in Mossman had told me to go to see Mr. Schellberg in Mr. JENSEN: My sister-in-law paid one for Cairns. I then had to go to another man over 15 years. I will guarantee that many in Mackay. I had to finish my work for the war widows in homes around the town are sugar bureau before I could get back to still paying their few shillings contribution Bundaberg. Then I had to have X-rays and after their husbands are dead. It is time a few rub-downs. I still had to go to this situation was checked on just as chiropractors who were recommended by accountants and otihers are being checked. the doctor in Cairns. My doctor would have We should be checking on these ffi!endly reported the Mossman doctor. That is what societies to see if they are doing the right they are like. Some doctors do have some thing by people who have supported them ability. I do not detract from the prac­ for generations. tical ability of any man. Just because doctors do a course in medicine, it does not follow Mr. DAVIS (Brisbane) (3.7 p.m.): A couple that doctors are expert in every field of of matters raised by the honourable member medicine. for Lytton should be aired further, partic­ ularly the funeral benefits schemes operating Mr. Lee: Do you feel that doctors should in this city. Many honourable members do a manipulation course? do not understand that in most cases old people who had been paying 6d. or 1s:. in Mr. JENSEN: It depends what they are pre-decimal days now have to pay lOc or manipulating. The honourable member could even as much as 15c. When they originally manipulate the cash out of the till at his join the schemes they are not told that place of business. I am not going to talk the benefits consist of one coffin and one about manipulations now. We have to get hearse. The coffin is of the poorest quality. the Bill through. I was just trying to make The other day I read that a consumers' my point clear. I could talk on this for an association in Victoria had said that funeral hour if you would let me go on, Mr. directors should supply coffins made of card­ Wharton, but I know that you would not board. In one instance in which my family allow me to do that. was involved, the coffin was certarnly not After seeing what is done in New Zealand much better than cardboard. It was made I say that we would be better off today of very poor quality pine. if we had a national health scheme and Two of these funeral benefit schemes are wiped out all these piddling schemes. They operating in Brisbane and they would be should be all wiped out. Let us get down to a the greatest "come-'On" in the funeral busi­ national health scheme to cover everybody. ness. The schemes give these people a Friendly Societies Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3433 ready-made field of potential customers, who The matters of artificial limbs, increased will automatically come to them when their funeral benefits and safeguards in regard relatives die. The contributor to the to funeral benefits, as referred to by the hon­ scheme is not involved; the relatives left ourable member for Lytton, have been the behind 'are, and the act the funeral directors subject of recommendations by the societies. put on for them when making arrangements The point raised by the honourable mem­ for the funeral is amazing. They show the ber for Bundaberg falls into a special cate­ relatives what the contributor is entitled to gory. I am fully aware of it, because it -one coffin and one hearse or one coffin was through my representations that some and transport to the cemetery or crema­ effort was made to dhange what he regarcds as torium-but point out that the digging of a grievous situation. the grave and a11 the other extras have to be paid for. People who become involved in funeral­ Arrangements may have been made for benefit schemes do not always realise the nature of their commitments. I have met a funeral at a certain cost, but the funeral many persons who firmly believe that they directors catch the relatives at a time when their resistance is at its lowest ebb and it aDe paying for something Hke medical does not take long to add an extra $100 to benefits in that they merely subscribe and the cost. They say to these people, "This is at the end of it there will be either a free what your parents have been contributing funeral or one at minimal cost to them. to over the years. Is that what you want?" Mr. Burns: They are not really told by In nine cases out of 10 the sons and those who sign them up. daughuers of a deceased parent will ask for a more expensive coffin. Mr. KNOX: I do not know about that. As Mr. Lee: Why do you say that? I say, I have met many people who are convinced that if their payments are com­ Mr. DAVIS: I have no doubt that if the pleted by ,a certain time they will be wealthy member for Yeronga went along to entitled to what I might term as a fully­ a funeral director he would 'ask for one fledged funeral, whereas all they are entitled costing $1,000. However, many of my con­ to is $50 worth. stituents havce meagre incomes and are forced Mr. Wright. You are increasing that to start at the bottom of the scale. These amount? days, funerals are very expensive. Mr. Lee: How much? Mr. KNOX: No. Obviously the honour­ able member for Rockhampton has not Mr. DAVIS: The minimum charge, includ­ read the same brief as the honourable ing the oast of digging the grave or the member for Lytton. cremation, is in the vicinity of $300. Cremations alone cost something like $35 Mr. Burns: We keep our briefs to our­ or $40. selves. (Laughter.) It makes my heart bleed to learn of an Mr. KNOX: It seems that the honourable old person who has paid into a funeral­ members do not talk to each other. benefits scheme all his life and on the death of his loved one finds that, instead of the This measure provides an opportunity for funeral being free, as it were, he is covered people to pay for a full funeral which, at only to the extent of the contributions and the moment, is not provided for under the is forced to find the remainder of the cost. Act. It may be that the contributions amount to $90, and the cost of the funeral is in the Mr. Burns: Does that mean a full funeral, vicinity of $300. or a set amount of money? It is imperative that the terms of any Mr. KNOX: They will be able to take funeral-benefits scheme be spelled out fully out units on the lines suggested by the to the contributors. honourable member for Lytton. Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister Mr. Hanlon: An extensive advertising fror Justice) (3.12 p.m.), in reply: I thank campaign is being promoted by Capricornia honourable members for their interest in Insurance. Does that come under the Insur­ this debate. Because so many of their con­ ance Act, the Companies Act or the Friendly stituents contact them on matters connected Societies Act? with friendly societies, it is quite under­ standable that they would show keen inter­ Mr. KNOX: I am not aware of its back­ est in the Act. No doubt members of the ground, but it certainly does not come under Opposition have seen the submiss1on made the Friendly Societies Act. to me by the friendly societies. Mr. Burns interjected. Mr. Wright: We have seen parts of it. Mr. KNOX: The State Actuary supervises Mr. KNOX: Obviously. Honourable mem­ these funds. bers opposite have outlined the various mat­ ters that have been of concern to friendly Mr. Burns: There is no profit made under societies, and they are included in the Bill. them? 3434 Friendly Societies, &c., Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Justices Act, &c., Bill

Mr. KNOX: Certain administrative people want to leave their affairs in order­ expenses are involved with the funds. There including their funeral arrangements-we are is a profit when the funeral occurs and the making provision for full funeral costs to bills have to be paid. be paid, whatever they may be. Criticism has been levelled at these funds Mr. Wright: You said you were going in that they are a form of time payment, to allow societies to spend up to three­ or a lay-by system of getting a funeral quarters of their funds on building and so paid for. I have taken over a number on. Will it be an across-the-board right of these funds on behalf of people who have for any society to do this, regardless of its run into some difficulties, and arranged for ability to do §_O? Is there any check? them to be paid up entirely. In that way we have removed the worry of maintaining Mr. KNOX: All societies come under the payments because of special circumstances interest of the actuary as well as of the in a family and so on. They do not get Registrar of Friendly Societies. If any any interest benefit or anything like that. friendly society is obviously getting into difficulties with this type of business, certain Mr. Burns: Will people get full repay­ administrative disciplines will be applied to ment of their money, plus interest? ensure that the members of the society are not prejudiced. Mr. KNOX: No. They will have the Mr. Wright: So there is an inbuilt check? opportunity of part or full payment of funeral expenses. As the moment, they Mr. KNOX: Yes, there is now. Most are virtually only paying a deposit. friendly societies run their affairs quite welL They have fairly unsophisticated manage­ This action is being taken because many ment arrangements and, with the advent of people were convinced that when they joined the welfare State, many other agencies in one of these schemes they were getting a the community look after some of the things fully paid funeral whereas what they were that people joined friendly societies for in paying was virtually a deposit. the first place. Most things available from friendly societies are now available elsewhere. Mr. Burns: If someone wants to withdraw from a scheme, will he get his money back? The benefits that flow from friendly societies usually come from people being Mr. KNOX: People will get back the together for some other purpose. There surrender value, less certain costs. That could be a family association with a society would not amount to very much. If a going back for generations. There could person pays 5c a week for a reasonable perhaps be a religious association. People time, the total sum paid does not amount have all these things in common, and a to very much. When administrative costs friendly society is a natural corollary to are taken out, it is found that a person having communal interest. While societies would be better off putting the money into are not growing at a great pace in the com­ a savings bank account or something like munity, many thousands of people are still that. involved in them. Motion (Mr. Knox) agreed to. An Opposition Member interjected. Resolution reported. Mr. KNOX: People realise that they were getting only part payment of the final cost. FIRST READING Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. I have always said to people, "Why are Knox, read a first time. you so worried about this?" One thing is "dead certain," if I may use that phrase; that is, that no-one will let a body lie JUSTICES ACT AND ANOTHER ACT around for very long before a funeral is AMENDMENT BILL held. We have to respect the many people INITIATION IN COMMITTEE who have a very tidy attitude in handling their own affairs. They like to believe that (Mr. Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) they are placing no-one under an obligation Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister in financing their funerals. We must respect for Justice) (3.24 p.m.): I move- their wishes. The unfortunate part is that, having joined a scheme in the 1930's, or "That a Bill be introduced to amend whenever they were started, people do not the Justices Act 1886-1973 in certain realise that they have not avoided placing particulars and to repeal certain provisions an obligation on others who are close to of the Decentralization of Magistrates them in that the cost of funerals in the Courts Act 1965-1972." meantime has risen five or six times. In "Justice is a machine that, when someone such circumstances a great burden is very has given it a starting push, rolls on of often placed on those who are close to itself." English novelist John Galsworthy's them simply because they do not realise words were perhaps applicable at the turn that their contributions scarcely pay for the of the century when they were written. first car, let alone the casket. Because many Now, however, the administration of justice Justices Act and Another [2 A.PRTL 1974] Act Amendment Bill 3435

-and in particular the criminal justice sys­ both prosecution and defence have no tem-demands constant attention if it is to objection to this being done. This pro­ roll at all. In order to function properly, the cedure is novel to Australia amd foUows criminal justice system needs modernising basically legislation enacted in the United from time to time. Kingdom 'a few years ago. Experience has This Bill seeks to update and streamline revealed that this legislation has been most some of our criminal and quasi-criminal successful aJnd beneficial to all parties procedures in Magistrates Courts and has as involved. its objectives the expedition of court work, In more detail the proposed procedure the reduction of costs of litigation and at will operate along these lines-- the same time the maintaining of adequate safeguards. (I) Where all parties agree, and the defendant is legally rep11esented, the evi­ The areas in which progressive steps have dence of any witness be tendered in been taken to increase efficiency and save writing at a preliminary hearing with­ costs and man-power are- out that witness coming to the court, (A) Firstly, on the preliminary hearing except where the parties agree that the of an indictable offence; witness appear for the purposes of (B) Secondly, in ex-parte proceedings cross-examination. A copy of the state· for simple offences and breaches of duty; ment must be made available to the (C) Thirdly, in the transcription of com­ other party before the hearing, and mittal proceedings recorded by mechanical must be signed by the witness, who will means; and make a formal declaration in that state­ (D) Fourthly, in the enforcement inter- ment that he believes the statement to state of fines imposed on corporations. be true. A witness who wilfully makes such a statement knowing it ,to be false !n the present procedure for preliminary will be liable to prosecution for an offence hearings of indictable offences, it is not punishable by imprisonment. unusual for members of the public attending as witnesses to wait for lengthy periods out­ (II) If it is agreed that all witnesses at ,.;ide the courtroom and then give formal a preliminary hearing have their evidence evidence without questions being asked of put forward in writing and if the defend­ them in cross-examination. This is frus­ ant is legally 'represented, and if that trating and irritating to busy people. If, at legal representative oonsents to the defend­ the same time, absence from work or business ant being committed for trial without any has meant financial loss, their irritation is the hearing at all, the magistrate will commit more understandable, and frequently more the defendant without further inquiry. obvious. (III) In amy oase where the magistrate The court's time is also important, and thinks fit, he may require any witness to magistrates may be occupied in a prelim­ attend the court and give evidence, inary hearing for days, even weeks on whether the defendant's legal representa­ ocoasion, while the presence of police officers tive has consented to a committal or not. at court giving evidence, and their absence He will then consider the evidence, whether from normal duty, detracts from the opera­ written or oral, and decide whether the tional efficiency of the police. defendant should be committed for trial or sentence. But at the same time it must be emphasised that the importance of a preliminary hear­ (IV) Where the defendant's legal rep­ ing in our process of criminal justice is very resentative does not consent to a com­ great, not only to protect a citizen against mittal, the magistrate must consider the an accusation which is insufficiently sup­ evidence, whether written or oral, hear ported to justify his standing trial before any submissions either party wishes to judge and jury, but also, and perhaps more make, and then decide whether the defend­ importantly, to provide the accused ,and his 'ant should be committed for trial. advisers with full informatiorn of the case (V) If the defendant is not legally against him. These two aspects are of such represented the magistrate must consider fundamental importance that any alteration rthe evidence, hear any submissiollJS either to our present system of preliminary hear­ party wishes to make, 'and then decide ings would be unsatisfactory if either factor whether the defendant should be com­ was in any way undermined. mitted for trial. The Bill seeks to provide that, on the (VI) All written statements tendered preliminary hearing of an indictable offence under the proposed amendment will be against a defendant, the evidence of some or tmated as if they are depositiorns. and all witnesses may be tendered to the oourt may be used at the trial to the same in writing without the need for such wit­ extent and in the same way 'as depositions nesses to be present and to provide that may now be used. the court may make a formal order of com­ mittal for trial or sentence without oon­ The proposed procedure will be additional sidemtion of the material contained in the to the present procedure on the preliminary written documents. In either case, the hearing of an indictable offence, which will defendant must be legally represented and be retained. 3436 Justices Act and Another [2 APRIL 1974] Act Amendment Bill

The provisions of the Decentralization of present procedure under the Decentralization Magistrates Courts Act have resulted in of Magistrates Courts Act which will be savings in the time taken by the courts in repealed by the proposed provisions is limited hearing complaints for simple offences or to certain sections of the Traffic Act, the breaches of duty which otherwise would Traffic Regulations, the Main Roads Regula­ have to be dealt with ex parte. However, tions, •the Brisbane City Council ordinances the decentralisation procedure has had only and :the local government by-laws. moderate success mainly because of the extra The proposed provisions will not detract time and man-power needed in preparing from the rights conferred upon a defendant the necessary paper work and because of by law. A defendant may still plead guilty the limited number of enactments to which or not guilty as he wishes, and he will still this procedure app!Les. 1lhus it is still neces­ have a right of appeal and a right of sary in the high-volume areas of prosecutions rehearing within 28 days of the hearing. for simple offences or breaches of duty to require the attendance of witnesses for the The Bill also seeks to amend section 111 purpose of giving evidence in cases in which of .the Justices Act to ensure that, where the defendants do not appear. depositions of a witness on the preliminary The Bill contains a provision similar to hearing of an indictable offence has been that which operates successfully in New recorded pursuant to the Recording of South Wales and encompasses prosecutions Evidence Act and a transcription of that brought by members of ·the Police Force and record has been duly made, the trans­ public officers who are defined to mean cription may without further proof be read persons acting in their official capacity as as evidence on the trial if certain specified employees of the Public Service or a statu­ conditions are satisfied. The present section tory body representing the Crown or a local 111 appears to apply where the evidence of authority. persons who subsequently die or become insane or seriously ill is recorded in writing The proposed procedure in the Bill pro­ and not where the evidence is recorded on vides that where a complaint for a simple tape. offence or breach of duty has been made by a member of the Police Force or a public At present the interstate enforcement of officer and a summons has been served on fines imposed by Queensland courts is the defendant and the defendant does not restricted to the enforcement of fines appear at the hearing of the complaint, a imposed against individuals. The execution srtipendiary magistrate may deal with the of criminal process against individuals inter­ defendant if satisfied ·that the facts alleged state is provided by Part IVA of the Com­ in the complaint constitute an offence and monwealth Service and Execution of Process that reasonable particuiars of that offence Act, which authorises the issue of warrants are set out in the documents served on the of apprehension and warrants of commitment defendant. The amount of the penalty for non-payment of fines. imposed cannot exceed the maximum speci­ fied in the particular Act prescribing the Frequently fines are imposed by Queens­ offence, and the court imposing the penalty land courts on companies, especially in the will take into account the circumstances of transport field. But warrants of execution the offence and submissions relating to issued for non-payment of -these fines cannot penalty as raised by the prosecution, as well be enforced where the only property which as any information or submission brought to can be seized under the warrant of execution its notice by the defendant on these matters. is situated in another State or territory. If the stipendiary magistrate considers that This ma.tter has been discussed at several the defendant should be imprisoned or that meetings of the Standing Committee of his licence or other authority should be Attorneys-General. When it was ascertained cancelled or suspended, then he will be that the Commonwealth felt that it did not required to give the de£endant an opportunity have the necessary legislative power to to be heard before making any such order. amend the Commonwealth Service and At present in the vast majority of simple Execution of Process Act, it was agreed by offences or breaches of duty heard in the ·the standing committee that action be taken absence of the defendant, oral evidence is in each State or territory to provide a given. On traffic matters alone, 40 to 50 reciprocal scheme for the enforcement of traffic police officers are tied up on each fines on companies, that is, fines imposed by of two days a week to give evidence in courts in one State or territory on a com­ ex-parte proceedings. pany be enforced against the company in any other State or territory. As explained, the proposed provisions are similar to those presently existing under the Again this part of the Bill is a first for Decentralisation of Magistrates Courts Act Queensland and the Bill will enable fines by which a ,stipendiary magistrate may deal imposed on companies in another State or a in chambers with a simple offence or breach territory of the Commonwealth to be of duty where the defendant does not appear enforced in Queensland. The other States on the hearing of the complaint and the and territories will enact legislation to enable clerk of the court has not received from the fines imposed on companies in Queensland de.fendant an election to plead not guilty to be enforced in those other States or or a written plea of guilty. However the territories. Justices Act and Another [2 APRIL 1974] Act Amendment Bill 3437

A further amendment contained in the in their employment through having to wait Bill makes provision for the transfer of a for long periods before giving evidence. simple offence or breach of duty returnable Housewives have complained of inconvenience before a magistrates court to another magis­ and of the time they have had to wait trates court in the same magistrates court before giving oral evidence in a magistrates district where the defendant has pleaded court. The Minister said that this can now guilty in writing or fails to appear on the be done in writing. I heard him say that return date. There are many instances which there would be a number of safeguards require quite unnecessarily a stipendiary mag­ with this. We concur with that idea. I was istrate to travel long distances to deal with pleased to hear the Minister say that it has defendants he may not see. For example, been agreed to by the various sections of if a defendant is charged at Boulia with the legal profession. under-age drinking, or failing to renew a wireless licence, or failing to vote at a I would point out to the Minister that Commonwealth election then, notwithstanding he was incorrect earlier when he said that that the defendant writes to the court stating this was a recommendation of the Law that he pleads guilty and does not intend Reform Commission. From my contacts to appear at the court, the stipendiary around the place I learned that that was not magistrate from Longreach is required to so, and that it originated in the Crown Law undertake a round trip exceeding 650 miles Office itself. to deal with the matter in a few minutes I feel that generally the magistrates courts at Boulia. have played a very worth-while role and Both the Bar Association of Queensland fulfilled the function laid down for them. and the Queensland Law Society Incorporated I was very pleased to read the 1974 report have given their general approval to the "Justice 74" by the Minister for JuS'tice. provisions of the Bill. It outlines the role played by magistrates courts in Queensland. That report updates The incorporation of these modem pro­ the previous report "Justice for Everyone" visions in the Justices Act will mean that in which the Minister pointed out that we the magistrates courts in Queensland will have something like 210 magistrates courts have efficient streamlined procedures in officers throughout Queensland, 54 stipendiary advance of any other State in Australia. magistrates, and all types of people involved The proposed procedures will mean that in in trying to bring justice to the people most cases witnesses will not need to leave in the quickest and cheapest way. their work or affairs unnecessarily; there will be a considerable saving of time to I think we all agree that the most important the courts, public officials and police officers; role played by the magistrate, irrespective and all this will be achieved without dis­ of the fact that he sits on all types of advantage to the defendant. boards such as hospital boards and industrial I commend the Bill to the Committee. appeal boards, and is involved in minor matters in civil jurisdiction, is the one he Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.36 p.m.): plays in examining witnesses in hearings In the latter part of the Minister's speech of indictable offences. He has to determine he outlined the many advantages of the whether the evidence is sufficient to commit amendments he proposes. He spoke of advan­ the accused for trial in the District Court tages to witnesses, the courts, the police or Supreme Court, and this is no small and so on. I certainly hope that whatever responsibility. It is a difficult task for the we do here will maintain and protect the magistrate, and very often he needs the rights of the defendant. It is all very well wisdom of Solomon. I should hope that to say that we will streamline the court submission of evidence in writing would system, but we have to make sure that assis't him, but I again stress that the the defendant has every opportunity to defend defendant must be given every opportunity to himself. From what the Minister said, I think refute evidence against him which he believes the Opposition will be very pleased to go is incorrect. The Minister said that he will through the Bill very closely. At the outset still have the 28 days in which to appeal. f would agree in principle with most of the I am pleased to hear this. amendments. Over all, the Opposition is prepared to We believe in the policy of taking justice allow the Bill to be introduced. It makes to the people. I think the decentralisation major amendments to the Justices Act and of magistrates courts in recent years has in the Decentralization of Magistrates Court fact achieved this. People need to have legal Act, and we will look at them very closely redress available to them not only in theory when the Bill is printed. but also in practice. We have always had the problem of a backlog, travelling dif­ Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (3.40 p.m.): I wish ficulties and so on. Plaintiffs, defendants briefly to express my doubts about the Bill and legal representatives have sometimes had before the Committee. I have alwavs felt to meet the high cost of travelling excessive that one of the rights on which ~British distances to have maNers heard. I hope that justice is based is the right to confront to this extent the Bill will have a stream­ one's accuser face to face, to hear him lining effect. Witnesses have complained to give his evidence and to have a chance of me that they have suffered financial [oss rebutting it. Under this system the accused 3438 Justices Act and Another (2 APRIL 1974] Act Amendment Bill will face a handful of type-written docu­ I understand it, the Minister's outline ments in the case of people who do not included a proviso that any defending have legal representation or whose lawyers barrister can, in fact, insist upon that­ are not on the ball or who decide that that this is merely an option or discretion they cannot afford to go to the Holland that can be exercised by all of the parties. Park Magistrates Court or the Boulia Mag­ At least, that is my understanding of the istrates Court on a particular day. At matter. committal proceedings or preliminary hearings we are going to accept written documenta­ I wish to enter a plea for medical prac­ tion of evidence against defendants. I do titioners. Their evidence is often called, not think that is good enough. particularly in cases where an assault is involved and very often it is needed only I believe that one of the good points to establish the extent of the injuries and about committal proceedings and preliminary that they treated a certain person at a hearings is that the defendant is there; he certain time. Usually it is as simple and as sees the person give evidence against him, clear-cut as that. and finds out whether he is shaky or honest in his intentions. It gives both the legal Mr. Hanson: They should be available representative and the magistrate the oppor­ for cross-examination. tunity to test witnesses. As understand it, I remember a case not very long ago Mr. W. D. HEWIIT: I where a young man was accused of murder. the right to cross-examine is preserved. I His relatives came to me and said, "Look, am saying that frequently a medical prac­ this fellow is going to get life. Is there any titioner's evidence is wanted for no other way we can get some legal advice? We reason than those. I have stated, and I might be able to get him off with 15 years." should think that this proviso will avoid unnecessarily disturbing the practice of very A barrister was briefed to represent him at the committal proceedings and he informed busy medicos while at the same time allowing us afterwards that the young man was their evidence to be taken into account. unlucky to be even committed for trial. At Mr. Hanson: A lot of people are much the subsequent trial the man was allowed busier than they are. to go scot-free. The relatives had been prepared to settle for 15 years on the Mr. W. D. HEWITT: I do not know that evidence that had been given to them by the anyone is much busier than a dedicated police and other witnesses against him. medical practitioner. When the witnesses were put in the witness­ box it was a different cup of tea. Mr. Hanson: We are! I know we are trying to cut down on Mr. W. D. HEWITT: The 'honourable delays and costs but more important are member for Port Curtis is engaging in a the costs involved in years unnecessarily spent little bit of play-acting. If he is trying to in goal or in judgments given against one. We claim that day after day we are confronted are saying that we might not have to send with a life-or-death situation he is over­ a magistrate to Boulia if someone out there reacting. Of course we are involved in social signed a form admitting to guilt; but what problems, and heavy demands are made happens if that person feels that he would upon our time, but it is nonsense to com­ like to change his plea? Surely when we pare us with medical practitioners in those speak of decentralisation of the magistrates terms. courts, we still expect that regular sittings will be held in these towns and that magis­ I know of one medical practitioner who trates and others will still be going to them. had heavy commitments on the days ahead ln the heat of the moment an accused might of him-in fact he had some emergency say, "Yes, I will accept that that is the cases on his plate-and suddenly was sub­ case". Later he might think, "I should have poenaed to appear in court to give evidence. the right to go along and put my side of He found it very difficult at short notice the story, which might be different from to opt out of his practice. the formal evidence given by an inspector I firmly believe that this is a sensible or by others". Surely to goodness he measure and one that will ,relieve a situation should be given that right! such as that. I therefore heartily endorse I am concerned at what I think is an it. infringement of the basic right in our society to confront one's accuser. I do not think Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister this right should be taken away. I do not for Justice) (3.46 p.m.), in reply: I thank say at this stage that I am going to oppose honourable members for their comments. the Bill-I want to see it-but I wanted to The matter raised by the honourable mem­ make those points clear before reading it. ber for Rockhampton regarding the status of the accused is of course of paramount Mr. W. D. HEWIIT (Chatsworth) (3.44 importance in the consideration of legisla­ p.m.): I think we are all as concerned as tiOil! of this type. It is for that reason that the honourable member for Lytton that people great care has been taken in framing the should be called upon to appear; but, as Bill. Justices Act, &c., Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Valuation of Land, &c., Bill 3439

The honourable member suggested that I VALUATION OF LAND ACT may have been in error regarding the Law AMENDMENT BILL Reform Commission. I contradict him. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Most of the matters were referred to the (Mr. Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) commission before they were embodied in the Bill. Hon. H. A. McKECHNIE (Carnarvon­ Minister for Local Government and Elect­ Mr. Wright: There is no actual report. ricity) (3.52 p.m.): I move- "That a Bill be introduced to amend Mr. KNOX: No, there is not; but there the Valuation of Land Act 1944-1971 in is no need to obtain a report on everything. certain particulars and to make provision Numerous pieces of legislation that I pro­ for matters incidental to such amend­ pose to bring forward have been referred ments." to the commission for advice. The Bill amends the provisions of the Valuation of Land Act 1944-1971, which Mr. Jensen: You should seek the advice provides the means by which statutory of Bill Hewitt. unimproved valuations are made of all land in the State of Queensland. These valuations Mr. KNOX: I would counsel the honour­ are not confined to Crown lands or to fee­ able member for Bundaberg to seek not simple lands, but include all lands of what­ only the advice of his bush-lawyer friends ever tenure, estate or interest, capable of but also that of qualified people. Like him being held by an "owner", within the defini­ I am not equipped in the law, so I take tion contained in the AcL The difficulty of every opportunity to obtain the advice of performing such valuations can well be people who are. If he were to seek proper imagined when one considers that such land advice more frequently he would make fewer varies from vast expanses of western grazing country-thousands of square miles-to city errors. lands developed with multi-storey buildings. Mr. Jensen: I come to you, but sometimes All these valuations must be made on a fee­ you don't fix it up. simple basis regardless of the actual tenure of the land. Mr. KNOX: I ·am rather grateful to Valuations are used primarily for the hear the honourable member admit that on levying of local authority rates and land tax, occasions I do fix up matters that he br1ngs but the Valuer-General is not responsible to my attention. for the levying of these rates or taxes. His duty is complete on the performance of the The principles of the Bill will be tested valuations, and much of the odium is in practice, and it will be the practice not removed from the levying and taxing auth­ the legislation that will determine the benefits. orities because the officers of the Valuer­ I trust that through the close attention given General's Department must substantiate to the Bill by a .number of authorities as their valuations-in court if necessary­ well as by my immediate advisers, we will should any landowner feel aggrieved with achieve the results we are looking for. his valuation assessment. The right of chal­ lenging the Valuer-General's valuations, Mr. Wright: What discretion will a magis­ quite rightly, is freely given by the Valuation trate have in accepting such evidence? Is it of Land Act. basically only on what the legal represen­ Despite much criticism of the use of the tative says? unimproved valuation method for levying rates and taxes, it is a well-recognised method, Mr. KNOX: I think I made the comment and, although it has been claimed that it that even after all the procedures have been is an unjust method in some cases, alterna­ adopted a magistrate can, if he feels dis­ tives acceptable to the majority of land­ satisfied, seek other information-in fact he owners have not yet been advanced. may make a different ruling from the one Unlike the 1971 amending Bill, this present that might be expected-but he takes the Bill, in the main, introduces no sweeping full responsibility. The only advantage is changes to the Valuation of Land Act but that people know the procedures to be is more of a machinery measure designed to adopted if the magistrate has the oppor­ facilitate the functioning of the Valuer­ tunity of exercising his discretion. General's Department and to clarify several areas where doubt may have existed under 'Motiol!l (Mr. Knox) agreed to. the existing legislation. Resolution reported. Already under that legislation persons who lease land from a local authority, the Rail­ way Department, the Forestry Department, FIRST READING and the Commissioner of Irrigation and Water Supply are included in the definition Bill presented and, on motion of 'Mr. of "owner", thus giving them the right to Knox, read a first time. object to valuations. 3440 Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill

However, there are certain lessees, licensees The effect of this amendment has, how­ and permittees from Crown instrumentalities ever, meant a vast amount of additional who are responsible for the payment of administrative work in the Valuer-General's rates and not given the right to contest Department as two rolls for the same local the valuation placed on the land which they authority area (the old one still in force are leasing or occupying. It is therefore and the new one waiting to come into provided in this Bill, that lessees, etc., from force) have to be maintained, often for harbour trusts or harbour boards, from the considerable periods: Some are already Co-ordinator-General, and from the Minister destined to be maintained for three years for Industrial Development, be included in at least. the definition of "owner", thus giving such It is therefore provided in this Bill to lessees, etc., the right of objection against increase the percentage from 10 to 15. This Valuer-General's valuations. "Lessee" will still ensure that the aim of the exist­ includes sublessee where the Crown instru­ ing legislation is retained, while enabling mentality is itself a lessee of land and a local authority area valuations to come into person is subleasing from that instrumentality. force and effect sooner than at present. It is possible for a large landowner, under Mr. Hanson: Is there retrospectivity. the existing legislation, to influence the com­ Mr. McKECHNIE: No. ing into effect of the whole of the valuation of a local authority area. The increase from The Valuer-General must make an 10 per cent to 15 per cent will lessen this unimproved valuation of all land in the possibility. The amendment will apply to State as if such land were held in fee the valuations of any local authority areas simple, and in making that valuation, the where the number of undetermined objections Valuer-General shall not make any allow­ and appeals is presently in excess of 10 ance for any restriction, limitation or coven­ per cent. ant or condition. It was recognised in the 1971 amendments that the restrictions in From time to time existing boundaries usage and development attaching to stock­ of local authorities are changed for one grazing permits and other tenures over reason or another, and we have recently national parks, State forests and timber seen the inclusion of certain Moreton Bay reserves were of such a nature that it would islands, which had previously never been be manifestly unfair not to have regard part of any local authority, in the Redland to such restrictions in making valuations. Shire area. When such boundary changes occur, it is necessary for the Valuer-General, Similarly, this Bill provides, in respect of in order to achieve equity in rating through­ valuations of land in respect of which a out the new area, to maintain the relativity lease, licence or permit to occupy has been between valuations of all lands within these granted by the Co-ordinator-General or the altered local authority boundaries. To do Commissioner of Irrigation and Water so it may be necessary for him to value Supply, that such valuations shall be made or revalue the added part of a local author­ having regard to and making proper allow­ ity area to bring it into line with existing ance for any restriction or limitation where values within the balance of that area. This use of such land is so restricted or limited Bill updates existing legislation and clarifies to use or in its use for purposes of primary doubts which have been raised as to Valuer­ production. General's powers to make such valuations, and in the case where the department has One of the more important provisions of never carried out valuations previously, as the amending Act of 1971 was that a in the instance of the Moreton Bay islands, complete revaluation of a local authority it ensures that he has the appropriate power area shall not have force and effect until to do so. undetermined objections and appeals amount to 10 per cent or less of the total value The Bill also ensures that the percentage of such area. The idea behind the amend­ of undetermined objections and appeals in a ment was very sound in that it ensures local authority is calculated with reference that a local authority will not be financially to the altered boundaries, but ensures that embarrassed because of large reductions in any area valuation which has force and effect valuations as a result of successful objections prior to the alteration of such boundaries shall continue to have force and effect, not­ and appeals. withstanding any alteration of the percentage Mr. Bromley: There are not too many of undetermined objections or appeals as a successful appeals. result of such boundary alteration. The existing legislation provides ,that, in Mr. McKECHNIE: Fortunately, there are ascertaining ,the unimproved value of land, not many real appeals. The Valuer-General no "invisible improvements", such as the and his officers are able to negotiate and reclamation of land by draining or filling, sort out the problems of most people who grading or levelling, shall be included in feel they have a grievance with their valu­ such unimproved value. In many cases such ations. Most of the objections are settled invisible improvements have been made by in this way, and therefore there are not the Crown, a local authority or a harbour many appeals. board, llnd the amount ~pent by that Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3441 authority has not been recouped from any desirable for preserving or attaining uni­ purchaser or lessee of such land. It is formity in values in the area. The Valuer­ considered that in such cases it is unfair for General usually takes this action only wl).en such ratepayer to have a valuation, and he considers the reductions of the valuations hence rating concession, as against those of objectors and/or appellants are such that ratepayers holding similar land which did the general basis of valuation of the whole not require such draining or filling. This local authority area has been disturbed to Bill therefore provides that invisible improve­ such an extent that equity in rating has been ments, other than timber treatment, where seriously affected. such improvements have been made by the This Bill provides that, where an alteration Crown, statutory body, local authority or in the valuation of a non-objector or non­ harbour board, shall not be taken into appellant constitutes a reduction in valuation account when assessing unimproved value, (as it usually does), an owner will have no except to the extent that ,the expenditure on right of objecting or appealing against the such invisible improvements has been reduced amount of the valuation. It is only recouped from a purchaser or lessee other­ fair that a virtually ex-gratia reduction by wise than by payment of rent, rates, or taxes. the Valuer-General should not open the door The amendment will apply to future complete to further objections and appeals when no area valuations and will not affect existing objection was made to the original valuation valuations. at a higher amount. To ensure that there is no undue delay in the consideration by the Valuer-General of It has been the practice of the Valuer­ objections, the Bill provides that in cases of General's Department to supply information complete area valuations the Valuer-General as to valuations to Commonwealth depart­ shall give notice of his decision on the ments and other State Government depart­ objection to 'the objecting owner not later ments. The valuation of Land Act 1944- than 12 months after the date shown in the 1971 makes specific provision for such infor­ notice of valuation as the date from which mation to be supplied to departments of the valuation shall have force and effect. the Commonwealth, but does not similarly Read with other provisions of the existing provide for information to be given to legislation this will mean that an objecting State departments. This Bill, therefore, landowner will be notified of the Valuer­ provides that the Valuer-General may supply General's decision not later than about 20 information as to valuations to other State months after the issuing of the valuations. Government departments in accordance with It should be mentioned that this is already arrangements made between those depart­ the case with the majority of objections ments and the Valuer-General and approved received by the Valuer-General and delays by the Minister. Although there seems are not always within his power to avoid; little doubt as to the Valuer-General's for example, when organised objectors authority to supply such information under request more time to prepare their cases and the existing legislation, such a provision so on. Sometimes, the sheer pressure of would place his authority to do so beyond meeting depar,tmental commitments has made any doubt. the hearing of objections at an early date The final provision in this Bill is to the quite impossible. Each objection conference effect that a certificate under the hand of the takes one or more valuers out of the field for Valuer-General that undetermined objections the period, as well as prior preparation and or appeals in a local authority area do consideration of decisions after the hearings. not exceed a certain percentage of the total This interferes greatly with the revaluation amount of such valuation stated in that programme being undertaken at that time. certificate, shall be received in evidence and In the year 1972-73 the Valuer-General's be conclusive evidence of the matters stated Department dealt with 10,356 individual therein. This has the effect of making the objections in 33 local authority areas. Valuer-General's calculation of the percent­ The provision in this Bill will, however. age of undetermined objections or appeals ensure that, no matter what circumstances final and conclusive for the purposes of arise, the Valuer-General must issue his determining whether or not a local authority decision on objection within 'the time set area valuation will or will not come into out in the Bill. The provision will not force and effect. operate immediately, but will apply to those I commend the motion to the committee. valuations where the date on and after which the valuation shall have force and effect is Mr. BALDWIN (Redlands) (4.7 p.m.): I shown in :the notice of valuation as 30 June regret that I was forced to be absent from 1975 and 'thereafter. This will enable the the Chamber when the Minister began his Valuer-General to overcome the backlog of introductory speech. I was engaged on a existing objections before the provision comes very important deputation; perhaps I should into operation. have advertised that fact more widely. How­ Under the existing legislation, the Value~;­ ever, after listening to the rest of the General has the power >to alter a valuation Minister's speech, I doubt very much whether where the owner has not objected or I would have gained anything by being here appealed, if the Valuer-General is of the initially, because he fled through its pro­ opinion that such alteration is necessary or visions very quickly indeed and appeared to 3442 Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill

me, in the light of the experience (limited they pay-which, incidentally, are all too though it is) that I have had in these matters, high, particularly in the areas forming the to make far too little of them. periphery of greater Brisbane-- As a matter of fact, in the five years Mr. Bromley: They are going to be higher that I have been a member of this Assembly, in the Redland Shire if this Bill goes through. the last two of which have been within the Mr. BALDWIN: Not just the Redland responsibility that I now have, no Act­ Shire. As far as I can see, the Bill is perhaps one could exclude the Acts coming directed at all the fast-developing areas within the purview of the Minister for around Brisbane, the Redland Shire included. Development and Industrial Affairs-has had It will affect ratepayers in the areas of Albert, more traumatic effects on the ordinary citizen Beaudesert (with its fast rate of growth in of this State than the Valuation of Land the northern part), Pine Rivers, Redcliffe, Act. Both my present and past experience Murrumba, CabooHure and so on. indicate to me that it is one of the most complex Acts on the Statute Book, one that I should like to get down more specifically has far-reaching effects on local authorities to some of the points the Minister raised. and, therefore, on ratepayers, residents, They were very interesting to me and all holders of rental premises, businessmen, and other honourable members on this side, as so on. I am sure they were to some honourable members opposite. I notice that only four From my knowledge of the Act as it honourable members opposite are sufficiently now stands, I should say that it is decorated interested to remain in the Chamber while with the most obfuscating verbosity that I this very important Bill is being debated. have had the misfortune to try to unravel. I am very glad that the honourable member for Redcliffe is present. Even though we The Act fully protects the officers of may differ on some points, in general we the department. I make a point of saying would have views in common on some aspects that I am not criticising or condemning of the Valuation of Land Act and the those officers. I place my condemnation proposals outlined in the Bill. where it rightfully belongs, namely, in the But the Minister said, "The primary purpose lap of the Government that has formulated of the Valuer-General's Act is to allow this policy, which makes these departmental the local government authorities to fix a officers the most protected officers in any basis for rating." That is indeed a significant department bar none. If any honourable confession. I know, Mr. Hewitt, that I am members do not believe me, I suggest to speaking about a matter in which you are them that as a spare-time hobby they try personally interested as member for the to unravel some of the sections of the Act electorate of Chatsworth. That is a damning and take a good look at the protection confession of how this Country-Party­ afforded by them. dominated Government really looks on its local government authorities. As every hon­ Mr. Bromley: It should be completely ourable member is aware, when a revaluation rewritten. has been made of a local authority area the increases in valuations have fortunately Mr. BALDWIN: I agree. The Act has far exceeded the subsequent rate rise that outlived its original purpose; it is an has been levied. In my 24 years as a anachronism and should be completely landholder in this State that has been so, rewritten. On my understanding of the with only one or two exceptions. I will Minister's hastily read speech, it would seem make one notable exception because it that the Bill tends to protect further the impinges on my responsibilities in the Red­ basis on which the Act was originally intro­ lands electorate. It occurred in that portion duced, and does little, if anything, towards of the Albert Shire included in the present solving >the problem of the average family Redlands electorate. That is one instance man who wants to own his own house on where, at one stage, rate rises nearly equalled his own block of land. valuation rises. Of course, >this was followed by almost open rebellion by ratepayers in Mr. Bromley: He is not interested in that shire and everybody now knows the what the valuer thinks it is worth unless reason for that. he wants to sell it. Getting back to the point I raised before­ the Minister, as representative of this Gov­ Mr. BALDWIN: The honourable member ernment, made the very important statement for South Brisbane has raised a point I was to this Committee that 'the primary purpose coming to. The whole philosophy of the is for rating in the shires. Whether or Act and >the amending legislation is based not that is true, the Minister, as a member upon the total misconception that every of Cabinet and a representative of the home-owner wants to sell his house and Government, made the statement in this block of land. It takes no cognisance of Chamber. There is ample evidence to show the desires of the ordinary man and his that throughout most of the 132 local gov­ wife who want to own a block of land, ernment areas in this State a readjustment build a house on it, beautify it, raise a of rates after every valuation has been family, and hope >to get from the rates calculated to give the shire a reasonable Valuation of Land Act (2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3443 rise in revenue. As I mentioned before, I and is in debt up to the neck, and he sees must admit that one or two have made revaluation pushing him in deeper-first to a rise in valuations an excuse for imposing his mouth, then to his nose, and ultimately an unreasonable rise on their ratepayers, but to his eyes. most of them make a reasonable adjustment. In any case, where local authorities see a Mr. Bromley: He is a dweller, not a seller. need to increase rates in between valuations, it is done at budget meetings in the same Mr. BALDWIN: That is a very apt way as this Government and its Cabinet description. hold budget meetings. These days, of course, If the Government intends to tax the local authorities do see need to increase their people, it should come out in the open and rates between valuations because of the make its intention clear. It should put its decrease in percentage of subsidies dished out electoral chances where its taxation policy to them by this Government, which should, is. for political alliance if nothing else, nurse them most carefully. Similarly, if shire councils desire to increase their rates they should come out in Mr. Bromley: They talk about extra the open and tell the people that they intend revenue. The Treasurer said that the higher ·to assess rates on the basis of land usage, of the valuations the more money the shire profit return, of speculation or of an unused can borrow from the State. area of land. Land valuation is one of the greatest single causes of inflation in the Mr. BALDWIN: The honourable member State and it throws a very heavy burden has three •times demonstrated his ability to on the shoulders of young people. anticipate my argument. I am sure he is right. He has touched on a point I was Local authorities prefer to hide behind going to make. The prime purpose of this the thin facade of the Valuer-General's continuing cycle of revaluation is to build Department. I know that Government into our economy an inflation factor. This spokesmen will say that the Valuation of is having a disastrous effect on the local Land Act and the Valuer-General's Depart­ authorities. More importantly however it ment were created by a Labor Government, is having a disastrous effe~t on ho~e­ but it had a different principle in mind. As builders-the mothers and fathers who scratch I have said on other occasions, my sympathies and scrape to provide homes for themselves lie with the clever men who are paid by and their children. the Government and have to do what it Another purpose-and one that has not tells them. I am sure that, often in their been stated-is to keep pace with the contin­ heart of hearts they do not want to do ual increase in exemption levels for State land what they are forced to do. This Govern­ tax purposes. These levels cannot be raised ment is the greatest subverter of Labor ad infinitum. Of course, inflation might policies and ideas that ever existed. On provide a superficial reason for doing so, the second reading we will have a chance but it is cel'tainly not a solution to the prob­ to expose their subversion, and the continuing lem that confronts the workers, who skimp avenue for increased revenue to be derived and save for 25, 30 or 40 years so that they by the State and shires which, to me, appears ;:an own their own land and homes as well to be implicit in the proposed amendments. as provide all the amenities that are essential to upgrading their standard of living. Mr. HOUGHTON (Redcliffe) (4.26 p.m.): This Bill is vitally important to all honour­ I will have to leave unanswered five points able members. As the Minister said, it is made by the Minister. All I can hope is designed to update the Act and modify that some of my colleagues were able to take certain provisions, which in my opinion note of them and will reply to them in the create great obstacles or hurdles for the short time at their disposal. average worker. The Minister told us The Minister has said that this Bill will that, to protect local authorities, the pro­ remove from local authorities the odium that portion of undetermined objections and attaches to revaluation. How right he is! appeals affecting the coming into force of But why is it that revaluations seem to a complete revaluation of a local authority attract that odium? Why is it that after any area is to be increased from 1 0 to 15 per revaluation scores of protest meetings are cent. held? Four such meetings were held recently The Minister intimated that valuations by in the Albert Shire. the Valuer-General's Department were used The answer is simply that the average for rating purposes only. If that is so, why person sees a relationship between revalua­ not return land valuation to local authorities tions and rate increases. Because he is not so that they may manage their own affairs? a real estate agent, because he is not a seller, No-one, including the Minister, can convince because he is not a speculator and because me that any valuer without appropriate he is not a fly-by-nighter, he does not see experience can undertake valuations in the any relationship between revaluation and a Cape York Peninsula area and say that grossly inflated capital value of his home. certain land is worth so much. Injustices He is merely a family man who wants to occur throughout our valuation system. In reside in his home for a long time to come, certain instances the Valuer-General values 3444 Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill land which at the insistence of local authorit­ Valuer-General has valued it at $2,000. Was ies has been provided with kerbing, channel­ that value placed on it to support the high ling, sewerage and water. The Valuer­ valuation of $8,000 an acre in that area, General sets the main after a buyer has The whole thing is absolutely absurd. Less had to pay a certain price for a block than 12 months ago our firm conducted an of land with all the improvements thereon. auction of land within half a mile of this This is how the system gets completely out area. It did not reach the reserve price of focus. I believe that the Valuer-General of $70,000, which was much below the price is responsible for many upsurges in the being paid by the Queensland Housing Com­ inflationary pattern in Queensland. mission. These things cannot be reconciled. Many widows living on the Peninsula, the The honourable members for Redlands Gold Coast and elsewhere have a life interest spoke of his area. I do not know the Red­ in the family homes, but they are driven lands area as well as the Redcliffe area. from them because there is no flexibility in Land was offered in the Redlands area and valuations. They get caught in the undertow. did not reach the reserve price of $4,000 an Everyone is concerned about what happens. acre. We take pride in saying that a person's Mr. Baldwin: Millions of dollars over all. home is his castle, but on the Gold Coast and in other areas people have to pay Mr. HOUGHTON: I would not know. $1,000 a year, plus other charges, to live in I will not be convinced that there is any their properties. That is absolutely unjust. relativity when the valuations in the Red­ The rating on the parcel is exactly the lands area are only about half of those in same, irrespective of the size of the building the Redcliffe area. Valuations in the latter on it. It may be a building of 30 or 50 area should be about $4,000, the same as in storeys or whatever the local authority the Redlands area. That is the crux of the allows. problem. Land valuation is vitally important but Firstly, the council itself should determine there is no relativity or equality in it. At its own valuations. The council should be one stage certain concessions were allowed. able to put whatever figure it likes on land. The Valuer-General values on potential. A Once one valuation had been made, anybody wheat farmer could say that his potential could sit down and, with a knowledge of crop was 100,000 bushels; but if grubs or where all the gullies and trees were, assess caterpillars attacked the crop, it might not the valuation of any other block of land in have any potential. It has no potential until the area, with its existing conditions. he gets it to the market and has the money For the information of honourable mem­ in his pocket. bers, the property I mentioned ,that was acquired for $13,000 had not a tree or a I shall refer to a typical example. I stump removed from it in the period between have had quite a few words to say to the when it was purchased at that figure and Minister about valuations in my area and when it was later sold. Honourable members have not yet received a satisfactory answer cannot tell me that inflation is not running from him on why we lost a subsidy. The at a mad rate when we see ,things of that Redcliffe City Council lays down certain sort happen. Large increases such as that requirements. The Valuer-General has been are occurring right through my area. I will asked to value land in my area on behalf mention some properties to the Commit,tee. of the Queensland Housing Commission, and In Morris Road, Lawrence's property, within this matter concerns me. I know every a stone's throw of the property I have just tree on this piece of land. I asked a mentioned, sold for $6,000 an acre; Frost's question of the Minister in the House and property, $6,000 an acre; Croghan's property, I was informed that the Queensland Hous­ $6,000 an acre; McKillop's property-the ing Commission had purchased two parcels prime site of the whole area-$7,000 an of land from Alderman C. E. Kroll, the acre. There were negotiations of which the mayor of Redcliffe. They contained an area Minister said he had no knowledge, but about of 77 acres 33.2 perches and the price which the figure of $8,000 an acre was was $592,000. About 18 months ago, some mentioned. 30 acres of that land was purchased for $13,000. How the valuer can reassess his If there is to be any relativity in valuation, valuation of that land I have yet to find the council should be responsible for the out. assessment of land in its own area for rating or any other purpose. The Minister has The best property in that area is owned already admitted that the determination of by McKillop, yet its valuation is only $7,000 rates is a matter for councils alone. If that an acre. The mayor's property was $8,000 is so, why take the responsibility of valua­ an acre. All of this land is in close prox­ tion off the councils? imity. The council has placed drainage I am su11e you would readily agree, Mr. restrictions on part of the area, and it can­ Lickiss, that 1the value of one's dollar today not be used for building purposes. rests in real estate. However, its price is I read in the Press this week that the being increased to such an extent rthat the Valuer-General has been asked to value land prospective home-owner is being placed at for which the owner wants $700. It is a disadvantage, and in the near future it will being acquired for drainage purposes. The be absolutely impossible for most people to Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3445 purchase a block of land, let alone build a By charging $3 a day for each car, they home on it. As I have already said, in my received a greater return than they had done opinion a situation of overvalua,tion of blocks when the building was standing. of land has been created. Very early in his introductory speech the Another matter that I believe the Minister Minister referred to land leased from local should study is determinations for the benefit authorities or from the Crown. I ask him of selected developers, or call them what whether or not he included land leased from you will. When questioned, ·they say that the the Railway Department, because in many land has been valued because of its potential instances that department leases land on which for urban development or the construction of people construct shops, and so on, adjac~nt high-rise buildings. However, a purchaser to the railway line and the local authonty may never live rto see the day when the has the right to impose certain rates and potential is realised. In my area we have charges on them. Does that land come been waiting a couple of years for a town within the responsibility of the Valuer­ plan. A decision has yet to be made on General? I have in mind particularly the ~t. It has been proved to me that persons very valuable land on which the old South owning rural property who could not obtain Coast railway line was constructed. I wonder a permit from the council for urban develop­ whether the local authority is receiving ment are suddenly approached by someone adequate remuneration from the people who who says, "Yes, I can get it." He proves invested in properties along that line. that he can get it, rtoo. Within a short space of time, he wants to convert it from I also bring to the attention of the urban development to commercial develop­ Committee the fact that if a person gets ment and that approval is granted, too. three years behind in his rates the local Actions such as this present all of us with authority concerned has the right to enter problems. upon and sell up that property to recoup itself for the rates owing. If it is Crown I would like to see something done about land or land held in trust by the Crown the system of operations of the Valuer­ and a person does not pay up, I do not General, which has been going on for quite think that the local authority should be some time. The Valuer-General must have the loser. After all, it did not enter into two minds. He gives one valuation for the agreement originally. If the Crown or rating and another for purchasing. That anybody else enters into a leasing arrange­ does not seem to me to be right. The ment, it should have sufficient funds on Valuer-General must be the master of two hand to enable a local authority to recoup situations. Possibly it depends on whether itself for debts by way of general rates and it is Sunday or Monday. One cannot have charges. I have in mind particularly debts the best of two worlds. Certainly, I hav~ by way of general rates. never known it. I believe the assessment should be by an independent valuer. If people The honourable member for Redcliffe, who are 'to get justice, and if honourable members preceded me in the debate, broug~t to my are to see that the right ,thing is done to mind the fact that at present smgle-urnt everybody, there should be an independent family homes are being valued out of valuation when land is to be acquired by a existence and people are being forced into department or resumed for any other pur­ dormitory living. The old saying "A fool pose. and his money are soon parted" is very true I reserve my furrther comments on the Bill today. If a person pays a very extrava~ant until I have had an opportunity to peruse price for a block of land, I do not consider its provisions. I will have more to say at that that price should be taken into account the second-reading stage. by the Valuer-General when determining, every five years, the value of the land in Mr. HARVEY (Stafford) (4.40 p.m.): For that area. I know that the Valuer-General many years the decisions of the Department will argue that that is not done, but I will of the Valuer-General have caused a great argue just as vehemently that it is done. deal of heart-burning to local authorities and to people throughout the State and have In some instances land in a particular caused a great deal of contention. I note suburb changes hands very frequently, and that in 1972-73 the fees paid by the Brisbane the price paid for that land has a very City Council to the Valuer-General's Depart­ definite effect on the valuations tha

As far as I am concerned, the method Therefore the formula ~hould be determined being adopted is the crux of the whole by the local authority, not the Valuer­ issue 'that is now being debated. General. I think I heard somebody say that I remember a case some years ago in that could not be done. It is being done at which the value of the land now occupied the present time. The Brisbane City Coun­ by Morton's Real Estate Pty. Ltd., between cil has two different rating formulas, one the police station and Allan and Stark's being approximately half of the other. If Drive-in at Chermside, went up by 1,100 it can be applied in Brisbane, I am sure it per cent, not because of improvements they can be applied in other local authority carried out on the site but because of areas. something somebody else did nearby. That I believe that the Minister said that the is definitely improper, and certainly not in Valuer-General's Department should not take the best interests of the over-all system. visible improvements into account. This is the greatest hypocrisy I have ever heard I am not particularly concerned about the because, as soon as a local authority puts over-all valuation of a local 'authority area, sewerage into an area, the Valuer-General because the local authority can reduce its does a revaluation, taking into account the rates and charges and still obtain ~he money fact that the excreta is being removed by required for its budget. But I am con­ pipeline instead of by Hunter Bros. The cerned about the discrepancies between one people are then not only required to pay parcel of land and another within a local sewerage rates but also increased water auvhority area. A person in a single-storey rates because they are using more water. dwelling may find himself surrounded by The capital cost of the sewerage line is four or five-storey complexes. lin valuing added with the result that the ratepayers have that person's block of land, is consideration to pay additional general rates as well. On given to the loss of light and ventilation? numerous occasions I have seen increases No. Because of the building that has gone ranging from $60 to $120 per annum. In on around it, that land has lost value in its effect, people pay threefold for this particular use. Of course, if the owner sold it he amenity. would probably get a higher price for it because of the increased valuation. But Therefore I regard as ludicrous the state­ many people do not want to move out of the ment that no visible improvements are taken locality in which they have lived all their into account. The improvements may be lives. Why should they be forced out of underground in the case I have mentioned the area in which they settled because of the but the backyard sentry-box has gone and actions of other parties? there is certainly a visible improvement as a result of the elimination of that particular I well remember an exercise that was building. carried out in the Brisbane City Council Does the Valuer-General take into account area a few years ago. At that time, of the increased development that has precipi­ Brisbane's total area of 375 square miles, an tated increases in the value of land in flood­ area of 2.6 square miles was paying 64 per prone areas? We know that the Valuer­ cent of the total general rates. One property General's report for the Brisbane area will be in Queen Street was attracting the equivalent tabled next year. In the recent floods people in rates to ,a whole outer suburb. I ack­ in some areas of Brisbane have for the first nowledge that probably the land in that time suffered discomfort and inconvenience locality was worth what the Valuer-General and, in fact, have lost the true value of had determined, but equally the Valuer­ their land, not as a result of some action General's basis of value per foot of land in their immediate locality but because of for the adjoining property was probably development further upstream in the catch­ much different from that which applied to ment area. Shouldn't the Valuer-General take property a couple of doors from the corner this into account and have a complete review of Queen and George Streets. of this area? Shouldn't he take into account Mention was made of the consideration the fact that these areas will in some way given to primary production in land valua­ be affected by what has been done upstream tion. Why should the Valuer-General take in the catchment area, probably in another primary production into consideration when shire? These are all very definite factors determining values? The farmer is engaged that should be taken into account in the in a business venture on his land just as valuation of land in these areas. much as the person who uses his land for Land valuation is causing widespread con­ commercia] or industrial purposes. Whether cern at the moment. I challenge any honour­ land is being used for primary production able member to refute the statement that or some other purpose should be left to the every time the Valuer-General's report has consideration of the local authority in the come out, there has been an outcry about dis­ application of a differential rating. In var­ crepancies in valuations within streets much ious parts of the State the local authority less neighbourhoods. This occurs for various can determirne the carrying capacity of land. reasons such as proximity to shopping or In some local authority 'areas the land may transport or the fact that one has to cross be able to carry four to six head of cattle a stream. All these are very definite factors an acre, whereas in others the land may associated with the Valuer-General's deter­ be able to carry only one beast to five acres. mination of value. Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3447

We will acknowledge that the Valuer­ In such a case the local authority is in a good General's valuation is a basis for the fixing position to determine whether they are of local authority rates and charges but it speculators m bona fide landholders. also creates many discrepancies and prob­ The operations of the Valuer-General's lems. The previous speaker mentioned the Department }eave a lot to be desired. In newly developed suburbs of Brisbane. I all my years in local government I ha-:e would go further and draw attention to the seen ~he repetition every five years of thts changes in utilisation of some areas. For revaluation 1exercise. It gives rise to the instance, the New Farm area is an old sub­ same problems each time. So far I have urb designed originally for single-unit occu­ not heard any justification for them. Any pancy of each allotment. The parks and excuse that has been put forwal'd has other facilities were designed for an area merely been a smoke-screen to hide the !'ea! with about 1,000 families. The roads and issue. other facilities were constructed accordingly. Today, because of residential changes the Mr. AHERN (Landsborough) (4.58 p.m.): area is required to accommodate six to eight This measure will be of great benefit to times the number of family units for which several shires and particularly the Cabool­ it was originally designed but the local ture Shire. authority is not receiving, in rates and A very important provision of the 1~71 charges, the amount per family unit it amendino- Act stipulated that a revaluatiOn received previously on the basis of single by the Valuer-General of all lands required family units. Frankly, many people to be valued by him shall not have force and are dodging their responsibilities. One effect until the undetermined objections and property owner may be paying in appeals reached 10 per cent o~ less of the ueneral rates fo'l" a multiple unit total valuation of the area. 'IIhts meant that housing 10 or 12 families no more than many local authorities, particularly the the adjoining property owner who occupies Caboolture Shire Council, faced long delays a single-unit dwelling. Therefore one prop­ in having valuations of their areas come into erty owner is paying in general rates only force. In the Caboolture Shire the delay one-tenth as much as is paid by his neigh­ was of the order of three years. Some local bour. Lately the local authority has caught authorities went ahead and assessed t'ates in up with these people in regard to water spite of the fact that a high percentage of rates and a pedestal tax. By this means valuations had 1not been re,solved. In some each family in a local authority area con­ instances a few years elapsed before the tributes to its development. A local auth­ Land Appeal Court dealt with appeals with ority is required to provide those amenities the result that certain local authorities had to industrial and commercial premises as to refund a considerable sum to ratepayers well as to private homes. who had lodged objections. That situation Any suggestion of differential valuation is prompted the 10 per cent provision :W~ich to be abhorred. I reiterate that a local was introduced in 1971 by the then Mtmster authority should have a greater say in the for Looal Government. determination of land values. This legislation is designed to increase the percentage from 10 to 15. One result will On the Go}d Coast certain speculators be that the Caboolture Shire valuations, have reclaimed former swamp and marsh which are now three years old, will be areas and converted them into residential brought into effect. I am su.re tha~ _the blocks. They ha'.'e made huge investments, shire will strongly commend thts provtswn, and in doing so have provided the local which will remove some of the problems that authority with a means of income from urban people in the area have raised with me. areas that did not previously exist. Certainly Bribie Island, which is in Division 5 of the local authority did not have the finance the Caboolture Shire, is part of my electorate. at its disposal to reclaim these swamps and Under the present set-up, Bribie Island rate­ marshes. Should such a speculator or sub­ payers have been paying a disproportionately divider or developer--eaU him what you high percentage of the over-all rates pay­ will-be penalised by being required to pay able to the Caboolture Shire. Several Crown high rates and charges before he sells even developments, which are subject to the one block? I readily acknowledge that as Valuer-General's valuation at point of sale, soon as a purohaser builds a home on a block and numerous subdivisional developments of land, he expects the local authority to are liable to rating at point of sale. This provide him with the same services and means that a very high proportion of the amenities as those enjoyed by other rate­ over-all rate revenue of the Caboolture Shire payers and therefore the council is entitled is being met by Bribie Island ratepayers. to some return for the provision of those services. However, I do not believe that The Caboolture Shire was not very happy initially the developer should be penalised about this situation but could do nothing in this way, about it. Australian Paper Manufacturers Ltd. has been involved in a battle with Some people buy land and, in order to the Valuer-General's Department over the get the benefit of concessional rates, run cattle valuation of its land within the Caboolture on it until urbanisation catches up with them. Shire, which represented nearly 10 per cent They are only trying to get rates at half price. of the rateable value. The A.P.M. land 3448 Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill

and that of a few other landholders, which The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! is also in dispute, make up 10 per cent I am not aggrieved; I am a little annoyed at of the value of Caboolture Shire rateable land. the honourable member and I ask him lto The valuation of this area has been in dispute return to the matter under discussion. for over three years. Mr. HANSON: Thank you very much for The people on Bribie Island have been your tolerance, Mr. Hewitt. You are always waiting for the Minister to introduce this a very tolerant gentleman. amendment and marginally increase the per­ centage so that this shire in particular­ I thought I heard the Minister refer to the and perhaps some others-will be able to reclamation of harbour lands and the fact institute the new valuation and so restore that many people are avoiding the payment equity between ratepayers. The amendment of rates to local authorities by claiming will permit A.P.M. and the Valuer-General's that legally they are exempt from the pro­ Department to continue their battle royal visions of the Valuation of Land Act and, in the Land Court-and probably in other consequently, that their land cannot be valued courts-but equity in ratepaying will not be for rating purposes. The rateability of har­ held up because one company is in dispute bour lands has been pursued incessantly at with the Valuer-General. conferences of the Queensland Harbour Boards Association. I rose mainly to commend the Minister It is to the utter disgrace of the Govern­ on introducing this amendment, which will ment that it has not effectively resolved this have particular application in my area. It very important confrontation between the has been eagerly awaited and will over­ relevant authorities on the rating of harbour come the present problem. It will not lands. In this regard, the legislation is adversely affect any local authority in complementary to the Local Government Queensland, and it will be warmly welcomed Act and a simple amendment of that Act in the Caboolture Shire, particularly by the would tidy up that matter. ratepayers of Bribie Island. Harbour land has been recovered and Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (5.3 p.m.): I small-industry and light-industry sites have shall deal with a point that I thought I been given to prospective buyers, who have picked up from the Minister's introductory erected buildings, little machine shops or remarks. Incidentally, when Ministers are retail timber sheds on the land. They have to make introductory speeches on very observed the local authority building ordin­ important matters-and this is one-surely ances, but many cannot obtain a title to they could give us some notes applicable to the land. This has been going on for a the speech. From my place at this end considerable time. It went on in Gladstone. of the Chamber it is absolutely impossible [ was approached by several people years to absorb the remarks made by any Minister. ago in regard to reclaimed harbour land. It is well nigh impossible to grasp the mean­ They said, "Surely you can give us some ing of a Minister's introductory speech. title or do something for us. The bank Therefore we have to rise and seek explana­ manager is breathing down our necks to tions on various points. get some form of collateral so that he can effect a loan for us. This is causing us In view of the news in the "Telegraph" considerable anxiety. Please do something that an ocean of Liberal Party supporters are for us." In his wisdom, the Gladstone Har­ down here looking to the leadership of bour Board took the bull by the horns and the party for guidance on a nominee for gave its own titles-! say illegally. Never­ the Senate election, I realise that this measure theless it had to give something to satisfy has been introduced on a very significant the lending institutions so that the people day. They will not get very far when we could proceed. are dealing with such an important matter. People who built on harbour land main­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. tained that they were not subject to either W. D. Hewitt): Order! We are dealing with the Valuation of Land Act or the Local the Valuation of Land Act. Government Act. Solicitors have written to the local authorities trying to bluff them. Government Members interjected. Many business people are not paying rates, and the community is carrying them. They Mr. HANSON: Government members can say, "Take us to court if you like. You play politics when they want to. They have no legal redress at all." conduct slimy deals behind closed doors. If this measure will remove that anomaly The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! in the Valuation of Land Act, the local The honourable member will deal with the authority will be relieved of a considerable matter under discussion. amount of pressure. As I said, this legisla­ tion is complementary to the Local Govern­ Mr. HANSON: It is absolutely shocking. ment Act because the unimproved value is I think that you, Mr. Hewitt, as a member struck to assist the local authority in the of the Liberal Party, should feel very much compilation of its rates. Surely if a person's aggrieved at the performance of some Min­ competitors have to pay rates, he should isters. not escape his responsibility to pay rates Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3449

to the local authority according to the and 4 of the Caboolture Shire are in the elec­ valuation of the Valuer-General's Department. torate of Murrumba. Whether Australian That is the only matter which I wish to raise. Paper Manufacturers Ltd. are doing it on I repeat that it is absolutely impossible, purpose or not I have no means of knowing, at this end of the Chamber, to effectively but they have held up the valuation of land absorb anything a Minister says in intro­ in Caboolture for at least three years and ducing legislation. Surely we can devise caused no end of trouble for the shire something better than the present antiquated council. method of introducing Bills in this Chamber. I am not carrying a brief for the Cabool­ Mr. FRAWLEY (Murrumba) (5.10 p.m.): ture Shire Council, but it does a good job. Firstly, in rising to speak on the Bill, I sup­ I respect the members on that council. The pant the honourable member for Redcliffe in chairman was my opponent at the last State his statement about the valuation of the land election. I have a high regard for him. He that was purchased by the Queensland was a worthy contestant for the seat. Since Housing Commission for $592,000. I have the elec.tion, he and I have worked in close it on good authority that the land was pur­ harmony. I am right behind the Caboolture chased against the wishes of senior members Shire Council's objections to A.P.M.'s hold­ of the department. Something smells right ing up the valuing of the whole shire. I across Redcliffe, and I sincerely trust-- completely support the proposal to increase the valuation by 15 per cent. One land­ Mr. Hanson: Who got 1the kickback? holder is holding up the revaluation of the whole area. Mr. FRAWLEY: That's what I want to find out. I don't like it at all. It stinks Not very long ago A.P.M. excised a small all over Redcliffe. That valuation was one portion of its land in Burpengary-some­ of the most rotten things I have heard of. where between 48 and 64 perches-and I would certainly like to discover the true sold it to the Total Oil Company for a story. I sincerely trust the Minister for ridiculously high price. A.P.M. had been Works and Housing has an investigation enjoying the use of that land on a low valua­ made into the circumstances surrounding that tion for low-rating purposes for years. Any sale. time part of any land held on low valuation I think the Minister said there will be for low-rating purposes is sold to an oil a clause dealing with concessions in valuation company or anybody else, the remainder of to holders of land used exclusively for a that land should be revalued on the basis single dwelling-house. I do not think any­ of the price received for the portion of it body except the person actually living on the sold. Why should any company continue land can determine what use the land will to enjoy the privilege of low rating after that be put to. I am certainly not very keen occurs? In years to come, this will be one on that proposal. of the biggest developments in the area, yet the company is holding land at a cheap rate, Mr. McKechnie: I did not say that. being allowed to sell the block, and getting Mr. FRAWLEY: Then I must have heard away with it. it somewhere along the grapevine. I am A.P.M. has another block of land of 62 pleased the Minister has not made that state­ acres near the border of the Redcliffe and ment. I was definitely intending to oppose it. Caboolture Shires. The company has been I know pensioners living in a high-rise area offered $490,000 for it by a real estate com­ on three 16-perch blocks of land with a nice pany if it can have it rezoned from rural garden. Why shouldn't they be allowed to to residential. The company bought it from live on land such as that in their last days? a farmer some years ago for $40,000. These Mr. McKechnie: You can rest assured that matters should be investigated. I am quite certain that they indicate that something that is not in ~the Bill. is wrong with our valuation system. Mr. FRAWLEY: I am happy to have the I will be quite honest and say that I do Minister's assurance on that. I must have not fully understand ~the valuation of land. been given the wrong information. I can never comprehend how some valuers Mr. Davis: You're a dill! arrive at the valuation they do. I instance the Pine Rivers Shire. The Brisbane City Mr. FRAWLEY: I am a dill if I put up Council, run by Lord Mayor Jones, one of with some of the stupid interjections the the greatest crooks of all time, who has done honourable member for Brisbane makes. nothing but rob the people at Dayboro and the people of Samsonvale, has a valuer called The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. W. Kinnivan, who went out and valued 150 D. Hewitt): Order! acres of prime land owned by a German couple in their 80's at a lousy $21,000. Mr. FRAWLEY: The honourable member That was for 150 acres in the Pine Rivers for Landsborough made a very sensible con­ Shire! tribution when he spoke about 10 per cent of the land in any area being uneconomical Mr. Houston: Would you make that charge for decisions on valuation. Divisions 1, 2, 3 outside that he is a crook? 3450 Valuation ofLand Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill

Mr. FRAWLEY: I will make that charge the last two years by the Brisbane City outside if you will admit outside that you Council, but it has not even paid Winn are under the domination of the Q.C.E. and Brothers the lousy $70,000 that its valuer the Left Wingers from 'the Trades Hall. has offered for the 490 acres. What a rotten situation that is! I do not think that some The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! of the valuations to which I have referred Mr. FRAWLEY: If you want to start will stand up in court when the cases are throwing dirt around, you have picked the finally heard. right bloke. I will throw just as much back In my opinion, where land is held by at you. a genuine primary producer-not somebody running a few horses, cattle or goats on it The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! and waiting for subdivision-it should be The honourable member will come back to given a low rating. I certainly agree with the Bill and address the Chair. other honourable members that any land Mr. FRAWLEY: Don't ever think because being held more or less as a dummy primary­ I am a new member of Parliament I am producing area should be valued at the rul­ not just as tough as half of those on the ing rate for subdivided land in that area. other side, because I am tougher. If you There is nothing wrong with that; in fact, I want to start anything, I will stand up to think it should be done to give shire councils you. an opportunity to receive a fair return in rates from land in their areas. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! All in all, many aspects of the Valuation of Land Act have caused a great deal of J.\llr. FRAWLEY: Let me get back to consternation in my electorate, particularly these rotten valuations by Kinnivan in the in the Caboolture Shire. I have not received Samsonvale area. An old German couple many complaints from the Redcliffe section. in their SO's are being robbed blind by the I know that the honourable member for Brisbane City Council. They have not even Redcliffe receives complaints there from both been paid the amount at which the land his electorate and mine. Most of the com­ was valued in the first place. They cannot plaints from the Caboolture Shire relate to get their money, and dozens of other people the valuation of land still being held for in the area are in a similar plight. primary production. I sincerely trust that, It seems strange to me that the valuation before the Bill passes all its stages, it will of land is always altered to suit the purpose become a constructive measure that will give for which the land is acquired. I suspect people a fair valuation for their land. that in time, when the North Pine Dam is finished, the valuation of land in that area Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (5.19 p.m.): As will be very high indeed. The Brisbane City explained by the Minister, the proposed Council, through its arch subdivider (the Bill is a machinery measure. It will permit Lord Mayor), will sell acre blocks of local authorities to apply recent valuations land near the dam site. At present, if at a time that they think is the most anyone applies for a permit to subdivide appropriate. It was considered that local land in the Dayboro area within three miles authorities should be able to put current of the proposed high-water mark of the valuations into effect when objections and North Pine Dam, the Brisbane City Council appeals represent no more than 15 per cent has the final say, even though the land is of the total value of the area. As I see it, in fact in the Pine Rivers Shire. I know that is the matter now before the Committee. of instances in which the Pine Rivers Shire However, it appears to me that the debate Council has agreed to subdivisions in the has moved off on a tangent and got right Dayboro area but they have been held up away from the proposal originally submitted by the Brisbane City Council. by the Minister. It has now become a Mr. Baldwin: Your Government o-kayed broad debate on the functions of the Valuer­ that. General's Department. In fairness I will say that, in my opinion, the Valuer-General Mr. FRAWLEY: That happened some has an almost impossible task. We realise, time ago, before the Government realised and I am sure he would agree, that many what a rotten bunch of twisters were running anomalies exist. the North Pine Dam. One of the most shock­ I have had the unfortunate experience on ing things that ever happen~.d was the many occasions of representing persons who Government's handing over control of the believe that their properties had been over­ North Pine Dam to the Brisbane City Coun­ valued by the Valuer-General's Department. cil. The Pine Rivers Shire Council should have controlled it. How that sort of thing can be overcome, I do not know. I have heard many criticisms Honourable members might have noticed voiced today, but so far I have not heard in the newspaper this morning a report about any honourable member come up with a Winn Brothers sawmill going out of pro­ solution. I know there are many problems. duction. This involves another 490 acres I appreciate the difficulties in which the of prime land at Samsonvale, some of it honourable members for Redcliffe and Mur­ river fiats with plenty of gravel. Incidentally, rumba find themselves at the moment. I the gravel has been sold at 20c a yard for have had similar experiences myself. Valuation ofLand Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3451

On numerous occasions I have represented their responsibility is equal to that of the people who, in the initial stage~, appealed council. We cannot allot responsibility to against valuations placed on the1r land by one side and not to the other. People the Valuer-General's Department. They did who reside in a developing area are pro­ not necessarily pursue those objections at vided with amenities by the local authority the time. Fortunately they did not do so, and the people in that locality should pay and I will tell the Committee why. At a for those amenities. later stage development occurred in the In rural areas we find other anomalies. same locality. As a result of that the In my electorate many persons hold small Queensland Housing Commission became grazing properties, and I am greatly con­ interested in the land. The commission asked cerned about them. Their contributions to these people to nominate the price they the local authority's revenue are based on wanted for their land. When they did so the Valuer-General's valuations, and in the Housing Commission was amazed to many instances are disproportionate to the discover that in some instances the owners' service they receive. Their properties are estimates of land values were as much as situated far out of the townships; they have nine times more than a comparatively recent only dry-weather roads and no other facilities valuation by the Valuer-General's Depart­ or amenities are available to them. In ment. spite of this, in n.early all. ins.tances they A Government Member: That is the test. are making a maJOr contnbut10n. If I have not said so before I want to say now Mr. MULLER: This is the test. In fact to the Minister, through you, Mr. Hewitt, it happened. that the Valuer-General's Department is On another occasion a gentleman living functioning under a system that would be in my locality came to see me. He told acceptable only in horse-and-buggy days. me that the Queensland Housing Commission had issued a resumption notice on his Mr. R. E. Moore: The whole problem is property. I asked him the valuation placed that valuations have been used for rating on it by the Valuer-General's Department, purposes. and he told me the figure. I said, "What Mr. MULLER: This possibly is the prob­ is the Housing Commission offering?" The lem, but it is the only interpretation our figure he named was a 400 per cent increase local authorities apply. They assess rates on the Valuer-General's valuation. This is in this way. This is the system under which an anomaly. How do we correct it? The our local authorities function and collect time is overdue to look at the whole Act. the revenue they require. I think this is The Valuer-General is charged with a certain wrong but we are being slightly unjust when responsibility. His assignment is to value we stand up in this Chamber and condemn land and, in doing so, to try to be reasonable the Valuer-General's Department merely and make a determination somewhere within because it is attempting to implement an the limits of the existing market. If he does Act that we, in our wisdom or lack o~ it, that, he is crucified by the owner of the have forced upon it. On many occasiOns land and laughed at by a potential purchaser. we are inclined to speak of potential when That is the sort of assignment that has referring to our land. Owners, unfortunately, been given to the Valuer-General. are force to make a financial contribution Last Saturday morning I had a discussion based on potential, which may not be realised with a number of councillors in my electorate. until some time in the future. They were very concerned about the finances available to local authorities. They said, Getting back to the provisions of the "The way our economy is running at the Bill I think the exemption granted to local moment, there is no way under the present authorities which will permit them to system that we can continue to increase apply the' Valuer-General's valuations when rates on the same percentage as previously." objections and appeals represent no more I asked, "What is the alternative?" They did than 15 per cent of the valu~. of the ar~a, not know. They were not enthusiastic about is a just and reasonable pro\'ISIOn. Desp1te the functioning of the Valuer-General's the fact that I have many reservations about Department. I will be truthful and repeat the functions of the Valuer-General's Depart­ my comments at that time. I said, "I would ment I believe the proposed amendment is be one of the least influential members reaso'nable and realistic. in the Parliament, but if I were to offer to make a submission to the Premier and Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (5.29 p.m.): Like his Ministers indicating that you people the honourable member for Port Curtis, I would readily accept the responsibilities of am a little unsure of the actual provisions the Valuer-General's Department, what would of the Bill that the Minister has indicated you have to say to that?" They very clearly he intends to introduce. When one studies indicated to me that this was not on. the figures he used, the matter becomes somewhat technical in its administration. I believe that the council's responsibility is to provide services for the people it is During the debate there has been a virtual elected to serve. I also believe that some rundown on the problems of the Valuer­ responsibility should be accepted by the rate­ General's Department. I kno.w that the payers in the community. In fact, I believe Minister likes members to bnng forward 3452 Valuation ofLand Act [2 APRIL 1974) Amendment Bill at the introductory stage of Bills any prob­ its valuations. AHhough I have had a few lems they foresee as this gives him an small wins, I have lost many fights with opportunity to broaden his own knowledge the department. of his department's problems and the way Reference has been made to Australian they affect people in all areas in Queensland, Paper Manufacturers Ltd. in relation to the not just those who make representations to 15 per cent to which the Minis,ter adverted. him to amend the Act. In both the western and the north-western Some honourable members have hinted shires, large areas of land are owned by that the day is fast approaching when the companies. Quite often, as the managers power to make valuations will not be are elected to the shire councils, the com­ retained by 'the Valuer-General's Department panies are able to determine the assessment but will be handed back to the local authori­ of rates within the shires. The only answer ties. I suggest that we will rue such a day, to the problem lies in changing local authority because one of the finest attributes of the boundaries throughout Queensland. Valuer-General's Department is that it is As companies have acquired additional completely removed from the influence of areas of land under the current "get big local authorities in assessing valuations for or get out" policy, they control large acreages rating purposes. Any move to hand that and, by amalgamating with other company power back to the local authorities will groupings in controlling local government be a retrograde step. affairs, they virtually control shires. The If some of the landholders I have seen only way to overcome the problem is to object to the Valuer-General's valuations relocate local authority boundaries through­ are able to get to their mates on councils out Queensland. This is not a new concept. for valuation concessions, we will be faced I have often advocated it. Some action with chaos. is being taken by the Maryborough tribunal, and the Minister and I have had lengthy Mr. Hanson: The council could also get discussions about the Mackay area. snooty on people. We must deal with the problem on a Mr. CASEY: That is quite true; but I am State-wide basis. I see in today's "Telegraph" thinking of the converse situation in which that in England, which is steeped in tradi­ town councillors are very anxious to help tion, a radical change has taken place in their mates. I am sure that the honourable that 1,385 shires, boroughs or council areas member for Surfers Paradise is aware of have been re-formed into only 422. In certain persons in his area who would not other words, two-thirds of them have been stop at roguery in this matter of land cast away in boundary readjustments simply valuations. Of course, there are many other because the modern age has raised entirely areas in the State where it could occur. new problems in the county shires and However, in reply to the honourable member boroughs of England that had remained for Port Curtis-a councillor who is snooty unchanged for centuries, some even since on certain people is in a position to give Magna Carta, them a hammering in arriving at valuations. I sincerely hope that we do not have to wait as long in Queensland for readjust­ There is one aspect of appeals that I wish ment. We are living in changing times and to bring to the Minister's attention. A couple need a new approach to the valuation of of years ago the Government introduced a land. Our mode of living has changed com­ system of appointing independent chairmen pletely. With changes in land use in the to hear appeals. However, the method of community, different rating values must be appointing them leaves a lot to be desired. incorporated. I have appealed against valuations as well as presented cases on behalf of other appel­ In the same context, we should look at lants, and in most instances the independent the size of local authorities. We cannot chairman was nothing more than a dummy. divorce discussions on local authority matters He certainly was not acquainted with the from a debate on the Valuation of Land area being valued, nor did he have any real Act, because the Act determines the rating. knowledge of the Valuation of Land Act. Some of the smaller shires are uneconomic I urge ,the Minister to look closely at the units. I should like a complete investigation type of person appointed. to be made, and the Valuer-General's Department could well be involved. Over all the Valuer-General's Department does a very good job. As the honourable In Victoria a usage and economic survey member for Fassifem has said it faces in the local authority field is being under­ a ve.ry difficu.lt task. Complex problems arise, rtaken concerning plant and equipment in particularly m the fast-developing areas of particular. the State, and these can be compounded by A few months ago the New South Wales the presence of some pretty fast operators Minister for Local Government received a who are awake to the opportunities of very comprehensive report and recommenda­ making a quick dollar out of land deals. tions from a committee which investigated I do not always agree with the valuations these matters. It recommended that the arrived at by the department, nor would 220-odd local authority areas in New South I concur in the manner in which it assesses Wales be reduced to about 90 because there Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3453 are now many uneconomic local authority Mr. GUNN: I have never said anything units; too high a percentage of their income like that. is used for administrative purposes. Local authority areas must be amalgamated to Mr. Houston: Your party denies Brisbane facilitate more efficient administration. money. Mr. GUNN: My party has done more The CHAIRMAN: Order! I think the hon­ than any A.L.P. Government for Brisbane. ourable member is getting away from the Look at your freeways in Brisbane and look matter under discussion, which has nothing at your road system. to do with local government. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable Mr. CASEY: We should realise that local member will please address the Chair. authorities determine their income com­ pletely on the unimproved values established Mr. GUNN: Yes, Mr. Lickiss, but I would like to make it clear that the Leader of by the Valuer-General's Department. When the Opposition has interjected and I am pre­ considering these amendments we must look pared to take him on. This Government has at the result to be achieved so that local done more than any A.L.P. Government authorities may strike a rate on new values ever did for Brisbane. when they are determined. The local authorities are then administered on the Mr. Casey: You have doue too much values that are established. One cannot for Brisbane and it is about time you be divorced from the other in any discussion. stopped. Those are some of the points I wanted Mr. GUNN: That is the opinion of people to bring forward. I hope the Minister will in many rural areas, but I am not arguing give them consideration. I look forward about that. Brisbane is the shop window to reading the Bill in detail to find out of Queensland and this Government has exactly what is incorporated in it. done a lot for Brisbane. It has been claimed that the determination Mr. GUNN (Somerset) (5.40 p.m.): I am of valuations should be handed back to in full agreement with the proposals outlined local authorities. This is absolutely impos­ by the Minister. I was present when this sible because they could not do them. After matter went through our committee. I admit all, this is a very unpopular exercise. I have that, some years ago, there were anomalies found, in most cases, that claims of over­ in the Valuer-General's valuations, but the valuation in local authority areas can be present Valuer-General and Minister have ironed out by reasonable men at a round­ done much to correct them. table conference, and there is no need General valuations should have no bear­ to go to court. These matters can drag ing on rural shire ratings. The system is on for a long time. that the Valuer-General values a shire and Early in the piece, the Laidley Shire the council then fixes a rate of so many Council lost a good deal of money because cents in the dollar based on that valuation valuations were handed down early and many to give it sufficient funds to operate during objections were lodged. the forthcoming year. Very often, some shires use increased valuations to obtain Mr. Marginson: Didn't you have a protest more funds. It is easy for them to blame meeting up there? the increased valuations. This is not Mr. GUNN: Most of the areas have a the fact. If a valuation of a shire were increased by $1,000,000 the council could protest committee-an association ~hat fights lower the rate and still finance its activities the cases for the landholders. for the ensuing year. Mr. Burns: Don't they have any faith In most rural shires there are two types in their member of Parliament? of rating-rural and urban. The honourable member for Fassifern said that some people Mr. GUNN: I would say that they have a in isolated areas in his electorate pay large lot of faith 1n their member of Parliament. sums in rates. It costs a great deal to That has nothing whatever

Mr. GUNN: I think they should. It cuts Valuer-General's Department has been a both ways. problem over the years for Governments, The honourable member for Mackay local authorities, landowners and residents mentioned that most small shires would be generally. A local authority revaluation is uneconomical units at the present time. In made every five to seven years. Each valua­ my area 1:he position is entirely different. tion results in a wide variation in values. It is conducted by a valuer who is generally Mr. Hanson: Do you agree with Laidley not familiar with the area he is attempting being incorporated in the Gatton shire? to value. Therefore, very often the ,result is a very inflated unimproved value of the Mr. GUNN: Not at all. It would not be land. After all, the idea of valuation necessary, because the Laidley shire is an by the Valuer-General's Department is to uneconomical unit. It is true that a large establish the true value of land in its proportion of our rates is absorbed in inter­ unimproved state. What does one find est and redemption charges. How,ever, an today? The landholder who has improved area that is paying a large amount of interest his property is taxed much more heavily than and redemption is an area that has achieved the man who has resigned himself to leaving much. If I took the honourable member his property in its original state. The Valuer· for Gladstone into Laidley, he would see General's alleged unimproved value is much ~hat about 80 per cent of the roads in the higher on an improved property than it is shire are bitumen. on an unimproved property. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon­ The true value of land should be the ourable member to return to the measure price that a prudent buyer will pay to a before the Committee, which is to introduce willing seller. In my opinion, that is where amendments to the Valuation of Land Act. the true value lies, and I shall give hon­ ourable members an example of how far Mr. GUNN: I am sure the honourable out the Valuer-General's Department can be member for Gladstone knows that what I in its valuations. am saying is true. I have driven over most of his area. 'I1he roads in my area would A property in the Eidsvold district was leave those in his for dead; there is no raffied recently by the Queensland Sub­ doubt about that. However, I repeat 1hat normal Children's Welfare Association. A a shire that is paying a large amount of valuer approved by the Valuer-General's interest and redemption should never be Department valued that property at $53,600. penalised. According to him, that was its true value. The person who won the property in the The CHAIRMAN: Order! raffle lived in Victoria. He was under the impression that his prize was worth $53,600. Mr. GUNN: Such a shire has done the and nobody could get it into his head that work at a time when probably a bitumen road it was not worth as much as that. He could be constructed for $10,000 a mile. decided to sell it, and the best offer he The CHAIRMAN: Order! I remind the could get from the local people who knew honourable member that the Committee the property was $28,000. is dealing with amendments to the Valuation I draw the attention of the Valuer­ of Land Act, not the building of roads in a General's Department to that as an indication shire. that people know that a property is worth only what a person can make from it and Mr. GUNN: Yes. Mr. Lickiss. I was side­ that the true value of land is found when a tracked. I apologise. I wanted to make it block is offered for sale. clear to honourable members opposite. Mr. McKechnie: Did you say the Valuer­ Mr. Armstrong: You are wasting your General's Department valued that property? time. Mr. HARTWIG: Its unimproved value, Mr. GUNN: Maybe I am. However, I did yes. my best to try to enlighten our friends on the other side of the Chamber. Mr. McKecbnie: Its commercial value. There is not much more I wish to say Mr. HARTWIG: An approved valuer. about the proposed Bill. I commend the Minister. I have watched this measure pass Mr. McKecbnie: Did the Valuer-General through various committees. There will value it? always be holes to plug in the Act; there is Mr. HARTWIG: No, an approved valuer. no doubt about rhat; there is ,always some­ The people who go out and make the thing coming up. However, the fact of valuations are approved valuers. In that the matter is that the Minister is always instance the valuation was accepted because willing to do whatever he can to make the it was made by an approved valuer. Act just a little better. I know that councils have to adjust their Mr. HARTWIG (Callide) (5.49 p.m.): In rates to a total commitment of increased my view any amendment to the Valuation valuations. However, it has been proved of Land Act must be an improvement. The in New South Wales that high unimproved Valuation of Land Act (2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill 3455 values, or high Valuer-General's assessment, then, the general principle of it still stands. can lead to saturation in rating. A person I can only assume that it is a criticism of can pay rates only to a certain extent. If the A.L.P. Government in 1944. the rates become too high, people will be forced off the land. It is another indirect Mr. Baldwin: There is a slight misunder­ tax that they have to meet. standing. I was referring to these proposals, not the principal Act. Anomalies arise because neighbours within a mile or two of each other receive varying Mr. McKECHNIE: They were designed assessments that are quite unjustifiable. In by a Labor Government. The honourable the shires that have been revalued, a member said that they were designed to greater percentage of ratepayers is opposing protect somebody. the valuations. They are men who know their business and who have carved out a Mr. Baldwin: I am referring to these pro­ living in the area. Whether we like it or posals as amendments, not, the landowner is penalised, and very Mr. McKECHNIE: The present ones? I often the high valuations are the result thought the honourable member was apply­ of sales at high prices in a specific area. ing it to the whole Act. I think he did I hope that the amendment to the Valu­ at the time. ation of Land Act will correct some of the It allows local authorities to fix the rates. anomalies to which I have referred, and I That is the whole design of it. I believe press for a real inquiry into the valuation that these particular amendments are designed system of the Valuer-General in the State of to protect local authorities above all else. Queensland. Again, if it is criticism, I do not see why Hon. H. A. McKECHNIE (Carnarvon­ it should be levied at the local authorities. Minister for Local Government and Elec­ The honourable members for Landsborough, tricity) (5.55 p.m.), in reply: The matter has Somerset and Murrumba made it very clear been very well debated, and I should like to that this inerease from 10 per cent to 15 reply fairly comprehensively. per cent for objections is designed to prevent embarrassment to local authorities. They The honourable member for Redlands said cited cases where the application of the 10 that the staff of the Valuer-General's Depart­ per cent limit was preventing valuations from ment were the most protected officers of becoming effective for up to three years. any department. I do not agree. They This was unfair to the ratepayers of the are protected in the same way as other area, and it was very difficult for the local departmental officers, but, on the other hand, authority to administer its services on that they have to face greater vicissitudes than basis. officers in any other department. I want to make it very clear that the Mr. Baldwin: I mean legally, and because valuations are purely a basis for rating. of that very reason you just gave. They have no relationship ,to the amount of money each individual pays. Mr. Cook Mr. McKECHNIE: I accept the honour­ and his officers make an earnest endeavour able member's point, and thank him for it. to strike a fair, equal value, with relativity, for the whole area, so that each person I think the most difficult job in the whole will pay his fair and equitable share in Public Service of Queensland is that per­ rates for the running of the local authority formed by Mr. Nev Cook and his officers. in that area. I appreciate the job they are doing on behalf of Q_u_eensland, at times under most trying Mr. Harvey: Valuations do have the effect ~ond1t~ons. They work in a department that of determining what one person will pay IS des1gned to determine values on which as against another. rates will be levied. Although the Valuer­ General's Department and the Government Mr. McKECHNIE: That is quite correct­ get no benefit from those rates ,the local on a basis of fairness and equity according authorities do appreciate the ser~ce that is to the valuations of their properties. That is provided. As several honourable members as it should be. have said this afternoon, the local authorities Mr. Marginson: Not on the ability to would not like to take back the task of pay? valuing land, or 'the odium that goes with it. r do not blame them. Mr. McKECHNIE: Rating does not oper­ ate on ability to pay; it applies to the value The honourable member for Redlands of the particular property. intrigued me when he said that the Act is worded to protect those that the Act was Another suggestion raised by the honour­ designed to serve. I cannot comprehend able member for Redlands, which I could that, but I accept it as criticism. The Act not follow, was that the prime reason for was originally devised by a Labor Govern­ increasing valuations was to promote infla­ ment in 1944. I am not aware whom the tion. Valuations are determined by sales, Labor Government was endeavouring to and sales cause inflation for the section of protect in those days. Although there have the community involved. been minor amendments to the Act since [Sitting suspended from 6.1 to 7.15 p.m.] 3456 Valuation of Land Act [2 APRIL 1974] Amendment Bill

Mr. McKECHNIE: Before the dinner As to his comments about the plight of recess I was replying to various comments a widow in a rapidly developing area, she made by the honourable member for Red­ has some protection under section 11 (1) lands. He asked why odium should attach (vii) of the Act. to valuations made by the Valuer-General. The honourable member for Stafford was I think I covered that by saying that, concerned about old people being forced naturally, any system designed rto assist local from a central area by high valuations and, authorities to raise rates is not accepted more than likely, higher ratings. But the kindly, but this is not always so. Last single dwelling-house in a zoned multi-unit year, the Isisford Shire Council's valuations area is valued as a single unit on residential were reduced by the Valuer-General from land. While I acknowledge that there would $3,000,000 to $1,000,000. Therefore, no be an increase, as far as the Act will allow, odium attached to that decision but the shire the Valuer-General protects a widow in this chairman was very unhappy because he had situation. to accept the odium of raising the rates by I appreciate the concern of rthe honour­ a considerable amount in order to gain the able member for Landsborough about the same amount of revenue. I think that tells its situation in Caboolture Shire. I am well aware own story. of it. A number of landholders in the area The honourable member for Redcliffe was have delayed the effective date of the valua­ not very happy with the raising of the tion for almost three years. In fact, it wiH be amount of unresolved valuations from 10 three years on 30 June this year, when we per cent to 15 per cent, but I think honour­ will be obliged to ask for a further extension able members of the Committee generally so that the matter can be settled. supported this move. As honourable members are aware, about The honourable member also asked why 70 per cent of the landholders in the Balonne we should not give back to local authorities Shire objected, and the proceedings lasted for the right to do their own valuations. I think several years with the result that the local the reason for this is abundantly clear­ authority became almost bankrupt when it the local authorities do not want it back. was forced to make remissions. It was for They have made that very clear on many that reason that the 10 per cent was intro­ occasions and I believe that, for the sake duced. Some difficulty is being experienced in of uniformity, it is better that valuations reducing the level to below 10 per cent, but should continue to be done by the Valuer­ it appears that most of the problems arise in General. I realise, of course, that, through the the 11 to 14 per cent bracket. Valuer-General, the Government receives some odium from rthe fact that values are We believe that we can help the Cabool­ increasing. However, I suppose this is better ture shire as well as other shires to apply than a decline in values. That would show valuations much sooner than at present. The that we were going into a state of depression. honourable member for Landsborough rightly I believe that the present situation at least drew attention to the fact that the non­ shows that we are improving our financial application of the valuations threw a very position, although in:fiation does eat most heavy burden onto the ratepayers on Bribie of the gain. Sales determine valuations, and Island. I am aware of the problem, and I valuations are designed to achieve relativity believe that the Bill will overcome this and equality. The amount to be raised by anomaly and injustice. rates is set by the local authority itself. The honourable member for Port Curti;; In effect, in the final analysis the local referred to harbour lands that are not valued, authority has the responsibility of fixing and pointed out that the holders of such rates on an equitable basis. lands do not contribute their fair share 6f The honourable member spoke of purchases rates to the local authority involved. Like me, by the Housing Commission. I am aware he believes that the occupier of harbour that the honourable member for Redcliffe lands should pay his fair share of rates. I and Alderman Kroll have had dealings in am happy to know that the honourable mem· land with the Housing Commission at what ber and I concur on this matter. has been quoted as attractive prices, but The honourable member for Murrumba I do not believe I should comment on expressed concern at the fac,t that concess­ that as I assume the sales were made at ions applicable to a house on a number of commercial prices. blocks were likely to be taken away. I gave Another point raised by the honourable him

good job he is doing under difficult circum­ or Magna Carta, the boundary problems are stances. He made the further point that, being solved. I concede that it is a slow although the Valuer-General receives a lot process, but these are very delicate matters. of criticism, very few people can come for­ ward with constructive criticism and a better Mr. Jensen: It is pretty slow. There are system than .the present one. Like the hon­ three local authorities in Bundaberg when ourable member, I believe that, while the there should be only one. Valuation of Land Act is not perfect, it is the best system that has been evolved to Mr. McKECHNIE: That is the honour­ this date. Both Mr. Cook and I would be able member's opinion. I will not come into happy ·to receive any constructive suggest­ that. But I will mention the Gladstone­ ions from anyone in an endeavour to improve Calliope area. The councillors of the town the Act, as we are doing by introducing this of Gladstone and the shire of Calliope are Bill. to be congratulated on the co-operation they have shown in reaching an agreement with­ The honourable member went on to say out any outside assistance, other than general that, while it could be claimed that the advice from the Department of Local Gov­ Act would function in the horse-and-buggy days, nobody could come forward with a ernment. I believe that this legislation will assist those two local authorities to effect better scheme. He expressed concern at ,the fact that potential was regarded as value. To boundary changes to their mutual benefit. some degree it is value. Although the full Mr. Marginson interjected. potential is not taken into account, some of it flows on ·to .the parcticular valuations. Mr. McKECHNIE: The Gold Coast City I appreciate the point made by the hon­ and the Albert Shire are trying to agree. When ourable member for Mackay that I like men of good will get together, there is a constructive criticism. I certainly do. He fair chance that they will succeed. also said that local authorities would rue the day if valuations are returned to them, The honourable member for Mackay and he supports the retention by the Valuer­ referred to the New South Wales report, General of the power to make valuations. which suggested that the 200 local authority areas in that State should be reduced to Mr. Casey: I said we would rue the day 90. I am sure he realises that it is purely if valuations were returned to local author­ ities. a report. Representing an electorate which has 300 miles of boundary adjoining New Mr. McKECHNIE: I think everybody South Wales, I am very conscious of the would. I gather from his interjection that conflict in New South Wales between the he refers particularly to the ratepayers. I Minister for Local Government and the remember the points he made relative to local authorities. Perhaps it would be better ratepayers, and I concur in them. if I were to call it a difference of opinion. One suggestion on which I find myself in There are many adjustments to be made disagreement with him is that relative to the before agreement can be reached. independent chairman. There are two inde­ The honourable member for Somerset pendel!-t chairmen, Mr. Reay Chopin, who agreed fully with the various amendments was With the depal'tment when I became Min­ to the Act. I appreciate his support. While ister, and Mr. Eric Howarth whom I he said that there are some anomalies in appointed at a later date to tak~ over some the Act, he realises that in the last few of the extra work that has devolved upon years some of them have been partially the department. I have received almost no complaints about these two gentlemen. Some rectified. They will become even less people have said that they are inclined to let anomalous thanks to the amendments before them run along too much. I have discussed us. this matter with the chairmen and they have An altercation arose between the honour­ s~id that ·they like to let people express their able member for Somerset and the Leader VIews freely. Both Mr. Chopin and Mr. of the Opposition as to which Government Howarth, who is a qualified valuer with had done the better job for Brisbane over much experience, are doing a good job on the years. I believe that the present Gov­ behalf of the applicants. ernment has done a better job for Bris­ The honourable member for Mackay bane. But it is important to remember referred to local authority boundaries but that it has done just as good a job for they are outside the scope of the Bill V:e are the country areas. In other words, it has discussing. He said that the boundaries com­ done a good job for the whole State. I mittee was operating in the Maryborough­ am glad that the honourable member for Burrum area. It is sitting in Maryborough Somerset made that particularly clear. Unlike today, and I trust that it will be able to the Canberra colleagues of the Leader of overcome the problems there. One of the the Opposition, who are set on dividing the amendments we are discussing, which sets city and the country by destroying the rural out how differences in valuation can be areas, not by improving the cities-- adjusted, will assist the transfer of land from one local authority to another. While I Mr. Marginson: What about the honour­ shall not go back as far as the year 1215, able member for Callide? 3458 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974} Traffic Act Amendment Bill

Mr. McKECHNIE: The honourable enlarged to cover existing anomalies as well member for Callide said that any amend­ as to remove any conflict in the interest ment of the Valuer-General's Act must be of qualifying those principles. an improvement. I am sure that he does In fact, the major portion of the Bill is not hold that view on other matters, because taken up with the redrafting of sections 16, the people of Australia felt like that on 2 16A, and 20 of the principal Act. December 1972. Look what we let our­ selves. in for! Look at the situation! At I would like rto take this opportunity of that time, the argument was that any change thanking the honourable members who took must be for the better. What a horrible part in ,the debate on the Bill at its intro­ disillusi?nment! The people of Western duction, especially the honourable members Austraha demonstrated their disillusionment for Ipswich, Chatsworth, Townsville, Wavell, last Saturday when they threw out the Mansfield, Stafford, and Sandgate and a Labor Government. number of other Government members! The CHAIRMAN: Order! I have asked While a few of them may not have agreeo t~at the discuss~on be confined to the prin­ entirely with the provisions which I out­ Ciples of the Bill and I do not think that lined, they were at least objective in their the Minister should step outside of them. submissions. On the other hand, I was amazed . M_r. McKECHNIE: Very good, Mr. to hear statements 'from some speakers Lickiss._ I shall not pursue it. I was merely on each side of the House which clearly answermg the altercation that the Leader indicated that they had little or no knowledge of the Opposition sought to have with the of the subjects -they set out to highlight and honourable member for Callide. I think I have made my point. I refer particularly to the honourable mem­ bers for Cairns, Windsor, Callide and _The ho?-ourable member for Callide also Mourilyan. sard tha~ Improved property is valued higher than ummproved property. I am confident I am compelled to say how utterly disap­ that the Valuer-General endeavours to value pointed I was with the feeble speech by the honourable member for Cairns, especially all property ~s if it were unimproved. I as I gave him a copy of my introductory ~·eahse the difficulty of assessing a well­ Improved property because it looks so much speech notes before the first reading. Per­ haps I should not bother to pay him this bet~er than its. counterpart in the raw. The courtesy in future. However my own make­ semor valuer~ m ~r. Cook's department are well versed m this matter. Naturally mis­ up is such that I will continue to do so with takes will be made but I am sure that the hope of being of some assistance to him! Mr. Cook will do his best to remedy Quite early in his speech, the honourable matters. member suggested that instead of looking at the law with a view 1to changing it, we The honourable member referred to the should be looking at our attitudes with a property that was a prize in an art union view to changing them. and_ valued at $53,600. When I sought particulars, he made it clear that the value I am of the firm opinion that it is the had been struck by an approved valuer, not attitudes of the drivers, more especially the by an officer of the Valuer-General's drinking drivers, which need 'to be changed Department. if we are going to make any impression on I. believe that ~ have summed up the the unnecessary slaughter of human beings vanous matters raised by honourable mem­ on our roads. The honourable member for hei:s. I ~ave endeavoured to answer every Cairns could have assisted in this regard by pomt ra1sed and. I will have a very making some worth-while contribution to the small speec~ to deliver when introducing the debate instead of knocking the Bill before second readmg. I commend the Bill to the he had the opportunity to examine it in Committee. detail. Motion {Mr. McKechnie) agreed to. The honourable member also got steamed up about mandatory gaol sentences. He FIRST READING would be well aware by now that, apart from Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. cases of persons driving, or obtaining or McKechnie, read a first time. attempting to obtain a driver's licence, while under disqualification by a court, there are TRAFFIC ACT AMENDMENT BILL no mandatory gaol sentences for first offend­ ers, and I assure him that it was never SECOND READING intended ~that there be such sentences. Like­ Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ wise he should now be aware ;that medical Minister for Transport) (7.34 p.m.): I practitioners will be relieved of the necessity move- to attend court by virtue of the fact that "That the Bill be now read a second provision has been made for the tendering of time." certificates by them in relation to the taking In moving the introduction of this Bill I of blood specimens. pointed out that most of the Bill is a restate­ In sharp contrast to the honourable mem­ n?e_nt of the principles embodied in the pro­ ber for Cairns, the first speaker for the visions of the present Act which have been Government, the honourable member for Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3459

Chatsworth, had really done his homework. of innocent people who would otherwise His carefully prepared comments indicated be charged with drunken driving. It is only too well that he is very much aware of generally accepted that, at levels below the havoc that the drink-driver is causing 0.05 percent a person is not 'under the in the community. He spoke of the Gov­ influence' of alcohol to a degree to impair ernment's action in encouraging compre­ his driving skills. It is just as reasonable hensive driver instruction. I want to reinforce to set an alcohol limit as to set a speed his comments in this area by saying that we, limit". as a responsible government, will continue The statement went on- to press ahead with driver instruction and as a footnote let me stress that Queensland leads "It is important that the A.M.A. should the rest of Australia in defensive-driving clearly define its attitude to the problem instruction. of scientific tests in relation to driving under the influence of alcohol, as opposed He was also right on target when he said to clinical judgment alone". that the honourable member for Cairns had a unique opportunity to tell us where the The A.M.A. made a positive recommenda­ A.L.P. stood on the incidence of traffic tion in the following terms:- accidents and the high fataHty rate on the "The Australian Medical Association, roads and precisely what his party would do being of the opinion that alcohol is an about it. I for one am still eagerly waiting important factor in the causation of traffic for the A.L.P. to lay down a definite policy accidents, lends support to measures on these vital matters. designed to control this cause of injury and It was most heartening to know that the death on the roads. honourable member for Stafford also went "The Association therefore publicly to a great deal of time and trouble in expresses its belief that- researching his speech. I share his concern 1. It is desirable that whenever a at the influence and attitudes encouraged by driver of a vehicle is suspected to be some sections of the adver,tising media. Both under the influence of alcohol, he should my predecessor and I have taken positive be subjected to a scientific determina­ steps to discourage the type of advertising tion of blood-alcohol level, whether by to which he referred. For example: models direct or indirect method. now wear seat belts, safety helmets, etc., when 2. A person with a blood-alcohol level appearing in television commercials for of .08 percent is under the influence of products being promoted in the automotive alcohol to an extent which renders him field. I believe the honourable member stated unsafe to drive a vehicle." very succinctly the position when he expres­ sed the implicit faith motorists have in the Mr. Speaker, the last paragraph is of para­ white line down the centre of the road­ mount importance, especially in view of its all the more reason for treating the problem source. of drinking and driving as we propose. This was given added weight in an article He went on to mention the problems in "The Courier-Mail" on Thursday, 21 of subdivisions. I think a great deal can March, by Queensland's own Dr. K. G. be done by subdividers, and those in authority Jamieson, who is one of Australia's leading who approve of subdivisions, if more care nemo-surgeons. Apart from supporting the is given to road and intersection lay-outs and A.M.A.'s recommendation, Dr. Jamieson the provision of fly-overs, particularly where made it clear that the driving skills in all the natural lie of the land lends itself to drivers are significantly reduced at .08 percent, the provision of these. even though some may be seasoned drinkers who may learn to control themselves better, The honourable member for Stafford spoke socially and otherwise, despite higher blood­ also of vehicle design. I can assure him alcohol levels. that the Australian Transport Advisory Council, through its vehicle design com­ In addition, there is overwhelming scientific mittee, has already accomplished, and will evidence from countries all over the world continue to accomplish, much in this regard. that at a blood-alcohol concentration of .08 percent, the essential skills necessary to pro­ The member for Windsor gave us an perly control a motor vehicle are impaired. impassioned plea for the drinking driver, and These skills are perception, judgment and he used the term "machine drunk". The reaction time, and they are adversely affected breath-analysing instrument measures a at low level of alcohol, and significantly blood-alcohol content; it does not pronounce impaired at .08 percent. on drunkenness. We are not talking about drivers beini In direct contrast with his views, the observably drunk, but of having their driving Australian Medical Association in its policy skills affected by alcohol. Statutory recogni­ statement on road safety of November 1968 tion of .08 percent removes the possibility had this to say- of idiosyncracies of some justices having a "Those who have theoretical objections bearing on the court's decision. to the use of 'breathalyser' and similar For the benefit of the honourable member tests often overlook the fact that the use for Windsor, and for the benefit of other of such tests can identify a large number honourable members, I want to say just a 3460 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

few more words about the breath-analysing He speaks of-and I quote-"there being instrument. One recognises that any type no education programme whatsoever". Surely of measuring instrument can malfunction. the honourable member has heard of the However, the standard procedure for opera­ work of the Co-ordinating Committee on ting a breathalyser ensures that this instru­ Alcoholism, while the education work of ment will not be in a state of malfunction the Queensland Road Safety Council is when used to test a motorist. something of which I, as its chairman, am justifiably proud. The use of a standard alcohol solution to test the instrument before and after the sub­ It was most heartening to hear such well ject is tested, and checking the result against thought out and well researched comments a pre-calculated figure, ensures that no injus­ from the honourable member for Ipswich, tice will be done. who also, because of his calling-- An Opposition Member: Another wowser! The honourable member for Ipswich West expressed the fear that the legislation will Mr. K. W. HOOPER: I would rather have have the undesirable effect of filling our a wowser in a situation like that than gaols. The provisions of the Bill are no somebody who cannot control himself when more stringent with regard to the imposition he takes his liquor. of gaol sentences than the present Aot. Because of his calling, the honourable The honourable member also suggested member for Ipswich is well aware of and that I look into the positioning and size concerned at the dreadful injuries resulting of traffic signs on our roads. While I from the association of motor vehicles and have no direct responsibility in this area, alcohol. Time after time, this member has I do take a keen interest in the submissions made positive contributions to matters made to the Australian Transport Advisory debated in Committee. Council by the particular subcommittee which He spoke at some length on research. deals with these matters. Now, I am well aware of the role of research and I am also realistic enough I would like to take this opportunity to to know that at the present time no sub­ thank the honourable the Minister for Mines ject has been so thoroughly researched than and Main Roads, the Commissioner for the road toll in all its aspects. Main Roads and their advisers for the assistance extended to me in connection with I feel it is pertinent to mention that the functions of the Australian Transport the Government has actively supported Advisory Council. research into specific projects, our most recent venture being into seat belts, on which The honourable member for Townsville Drs. K. G. Jamieson and D. Kelly have came to the crux of the whole subject when reported. Their reports are available. he said, "If a person is not guilty, he has The honourable member's suggestion is nothing to fear". That, Mr. Speaker, is one which I will certainly keep in mind, a plain statement of fact! and I would like to take this opportunity By the nature of his calling, the hon­ of thanking him for his untiring assistance ourable member would have a good know­ to me as a member of my transport com­ ledge of the painful suffering, misery and mittee. permanent disabilities which are caused by I appreciate the apparent fact that the accidents involving the drinking driver, and honourable member for South Brisbane has I thank him sincerely for his contribution no sympathy for the drinking driver. How~ and support. As well, I can assure him ever, he was rather contradictory in his that the Bill provides for the closing of the speech and it would appear that he is all loop-hole whereby drink-drivers can now too prone to listen to rumours supposedly seek refuge in a hospital to avoid the pos­ originating from the joint Government parties' sibility of being charged with drink-driving. room. His criticism of the Government's realistic action to amend the Liquor Acts Turning now to the honourable member seems strange coming from a member of for Port Curtis who referred to boating and a political party which is trying to bulldoze waterways and who spoke, as usual, with the community into accepting a state of his tongue in his cheek--drink-driving pro­ permissiveness. The honourable member visions in the current Act apply appropri­ referred to the Government as getting "grog­ ately to vessels, and so will the new legis­ gier every day". The only way in which lation. He sought to criticise the proposed the Government is getting groggier is listen­ transfer of driver licence issues from the ing to a lot of inane, inept debate from police to the Department of Transport, some of the members opposite. claiming that we were inconsistent when, I might say I am just as good at rhyme in the same legislation, we were imposing he professes to be! To all drivers added duties on the police by way of the as car breathalyser. These two things are not I say- comparable. Licence-issuing is an adminis­ "Be patient today or you may be a trative function by contrast to the breathaly­ patient tomorrow." ser which is an arm of enforcement. Police And in lighter vein- officers presently stand by and advise on "Before you drive with Fred, reserve a the use of the breathalyser. hospital bed." Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRll.. 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3461

I feel it is very necessary to stress for Mr. K. W. HOOPER: So that "Hansard" the benefit of the honourable member for might know what I have in my mouth, Callide that we cannot have two sets of I have had influenza and I have a lozenge laws-one for the country and one for the in my mouth. city. He spoke of persons having four or five 7 oz. beers not being drunk and of Mr. Hanson: Apologise to me. those who, after tossing down five or six Mr. K. W. HOOPER: I have no intention beers, were frightened to drive home. It of apologising for something of which I had appears to me that the honourable member no part. has failed to appreciate the amount of liquor I had made the point rthat to reach which has to be consumed to reach the a blood-alcohol level of .15 per cent, a prescribed level or the fact that we are person would have to consume approximately not talking about people being drunk but 15 7 oz. glasses of beer within one hour. driving or in charge of a vehicle with a Surely this is not light-hearted social drinking blood-alcohol concentration which world-wide by responsible citizens. Certainly there is research has shown impairs their ability to provision for a court to impose a period such an extent that they should not drive. of imprisonment for a first offence. This I might point out to him that for the is in the Act at present and is not peculiar years 1970, 1971, and 1972, 96.4 per cent to the Traffic Act. The court has the option of persons tested in Queensland-! repeat, to impose this penalty if it considers circum­ 96.4 per cent-had a blood-alcohol con­ stances of the case warrant such a course centration exceeding .08 per cent-92 per of action. cent exceeded .1 per cent-while 82 per cent had blood-alcohol concentrations greater than I am personally unaware of any instance .15 per cent. To reach a blood-alcohol where a court has imposed imprisonment level of .15 per cent a person would have for a first offence under the drink-driving to consume approximately 15 glasses of beer legislation, and if there have been these within one hour. circumstances they must have been very ser­ ious indeed. If they were not, the sentence Mr. F. P. MOQre: You are kidding yourself. could not have stood up to an appeal to a superior court. Mr. K. W. HOOPER: The honourable member for Mourilyan must have been par­ I agree with the honourable member for taking tonight by the way he is chirping Lytton that motorists should drive with the over there. sure knowledge 'that if they offend they will be punished. Mr. F. P. MOORE: I rise to a point of The penalties proposed in the Bill are order. stringent and are indeed intended to act as a deterrent to motorists who are tempted to Mr. SPEAKER: Order! drive when they have been drinking or drive Mr. F. P. MOORE: If you quieten Gov­ when they are under disqualification. The ernment members-- fines are maximum, and whether revenue increases from these fines will depend on Mr. SPEAKER: Make your point of cases and the number of people charged. order. I did make reference to provision in the Bill for the es,tablishment of a medical board Mr. F. P. MOORE: My point of order of review, and the function of such a board is that I was invited to a session with the will be to examine fully the driving, medical Minister and I told him I would not drink and other history of certain drivers before tonight, so I had lemonade while he drank. they will be eligible to apply for a further licence. Mr. K. W. HOOPER: I take exception to the remarks of the honourable member. The honourable member for Murrumba He knows I am a very moderate drinker and, expressed his disapproval of police officers in fact, have not partaken of liquor at being able to operate the breath-analysing any time today. I want the honourable instrument under the new legislation. member

I might point out that the person who drinking driver with the one aim of reducing, xcepted his advice would immediately render not eliminating, the senseless carnage on himself liable to be charged with driving or our roads. We want to eliminate it, if we in charge under the influence of liquor or a can, of course. I can appreciate his feelings drug and all the penalties associated there­ with regard to minimum penalties and periods with. I am confident that the honourable of disqualification but I think the courts member for Murrumba did not appreciate are in a better position to determine the the seriousness of his remarks in this regard, quantum of punishment based on the facts and I am grateful to him for the contribution presented in each case. I must congratulate which he otherwise made to the Bill. the honourable member for Sandgate on I would like to assure the honourable his consistency in supporting any legisla­ member for Brisbane that I have noted his tion tended towards any over-all benefit to advocacy for rehabilitation. He will be the people of this State. interested, I am sure, in our proposed medical Similarly I want to extend my sincere board of review, and will be satisfied with thanks to the honourable member for Mans­ the assurances which I have already given field for his contribution to the debate and regarding mandatory gaol sentences. I con­ I want to compliment him on his initiative gratulate the honourable member on what, in researching the subject so well. With apart from a few inaccuracies, was overall the regard to his request that we embark on most constructive speech he has made in an educational programme, I have already this House. mentioned the work being done in this field I note with interest the support by the by the Queensland Road Safety Council and honourable member for Wavell, especially the co-ordinating committee on alcoholism. I with regard to improved standards of testing also want to place on record my appreciation and the value that he sees in the "P" plate to the honourable member for Mansfield for system, and thank him for his contribution his assistance and co-operation as a member to the debate on ·this important legislation. of my transport committee and of the He made a suggestion as to the use of police Queensland Road Safety Council. for courtesy purposes outside centres where The honourable member for Mourilyan people congregate and drink. I believe that has sought to cast doubt on the accuracy of the sheer mass of numbers would quite easily the breathalyser in determining blood-alcohol beat his proposal. For instance, what would concentration, and has quoted at length from happen outside a football ground? Most the transcript of a defended drink-driving likely the police would end up operating charge. He particularly referred to the cross­ a free type of taxi service. examination of Dr. J. B. Lynch, a part-time As well, the honourable member appears assistant government medical officer, by Mr. to advocate the scrapping of the present R. Brewer. It is well known that Mr. "give way to the right" rule and suggested Brewer has used extensively the early experi­ a system of priority roads. I am not wedded ments of Dr. Norman McCallum and his to ·the present system, but the considerable colleagues to support his legal argument. exposure I have had through the Australian These experiments, conducted from 1958 Transport Advisory Council ·to the result of to 1960, were in relation to the blood-alcohol researches into various alternative systems has concentrations in a person obtained simul­ left me with the impression that the "give taneously by breath analysis and blood way to the right" rule, as we know it, is analysis. It is equally well known that the best solution available at present for the his arguments have been destroyed when he uncontrolled intersection. had more experienced persons than Dr. The honourable member also suggested Lynch to contend with. that the "give way to the right" rule is not It is important to note that these experi­ being policed correctly, and he mentioned in ments were attempts to correlate the blood­ particular "stop" signs and red lights. He alcohol concentrations obtained from venous also stressed that circums·tances of any par­ and arterial blood, not attemps to compare ticular accident must be taken into consid­ them. The purpose of such experiments was to eration. correlate the blood-alcohol concentration as Action is not taken by police on the spot given by breath analysis and by direct blood for an offence of failing .to give way. All analysis, because these are analyses of relevant facts are first reported and then different structures. Breath analysis gives adjudicated upon by an experienced member the blood-alcohol concentration of pulmonary of the Police Force who is fully conversant arterial blood whereas direct blood analysis with all aspects of the law. gives the blood-alcohol concentration of peri­ pheral venous blood. To clear up any misconception-the position at law is that the general rule of I quote in full from an article by Dr. "give way to the right" is not affected by a McCallum in "The Medical Journal of "stop" sign but is not applicable at an inter­ Australia", 8 May, 1971- section controlled by •traffic lights. "It is important to stress that, at the l assure the honourable member ·for time when this original Australian correla­ Sandgate that the Bill's provisions are no tion study was made, it was not realised sham but a genuine desire to discourage the that during the time of rapidly rising blood Traffic Act Amendment Bill (2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3463

alcohol concentration, the pulmonary cir­ These figures come from early correlation culation blood alcohol concentration given experiments by Dr. McCallum and his by the breath test, reflects the arterial colleagues around the 1958-1960 period. In alcohol concentration, while the cubital the experiment, they found that the extreme vein alcohol concentration used for com­ differences between breath and blood read­ parison will reflect the lower alcohol con­ ings were-breath .028 per cent above the centration of the peripheral venous cir­ blood reading and .067 per cent below the culation." blood reading. The phrasing of such a [ should point out here that Dr. McCallum question by Mr. Brewer is misleading. He and his colleagues were chemists, not medical has taken a range of differences in a par­ physiologi&ts. ticular experiment, and quoted that range as a degree of accuracy generally to be The honourable member stated that the applied. breathalyser measures the blood-alcohol con­ centration in the lung. In fact, it measures The question implies that the breathalyser the blood-alcohol concentration of the pul­ can overestimate or underestimate the monary arterial circulation. The primary true blood alcohol concentration. I refer purpose of determining blood alcohol con­ honourable members to my earlier remarks centration for medico-legal purposes is to and the statement by Dr. McCallum in "The relate it to the degree of alcohol-affectedness. Australian Medical Journal." When one considers the physiology involved, one Mr. F. P. Moore: Are you saying that realises that there is no overestimation or there are divisions among the medical pro­ underestimation. In fact, the figures are fession? the expected differences between arterial and venous blood-alcohol concentrations at dif­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable ferent phases of the blood-alcohol curve. member for Mourilyan will have an oppor­ tunity to speak on the Bill at a later hour. The accuracy of the breathalyser has been established as plus or minus 0.005 per cent, Mr. F. P. Moore interjected. the same degree of accuracy as the dis­ tillation method of blood analysis. The Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable standard deviation of the method of breath member will not argue with the Chair. analysis using the Borkenstein breathalyzer has been established at .0023 per cent. The Mr. K. W. HOOPER: The relevant blood machine therefore has a scientifically accep­ source, if we expect an infallible correlation table degree of accuracy. between a person's blood-alcohol concentra­ tion and his degree of physical impairment, I believe what I have said should clarify would be the cerebral circulation, because the the situation, which perhaps could be stated effect we are trying to measure is taking succinctly as blood versus breath. Let me place in the cerebral tissues. The circulation take the position a little further. Our legis­ which most closely parallels the cerebral cir­ lation is oriented towards testing specimens culation is the pulmonary circulation. of either breath or blood, and where a breath-analysing instrument is available this Since the arterial circulation is in early is generally used. The circumstances in alcohol equilibrium with the brain, which which blood samples are taken should be is not true for venous blood, conclusions considered. It is not a question of the regarding the existence and degree of person concerned having a choice of giving alcoholic influence of a person should only a blood or breath specimen as the Traffic be based upon the results of arterial blood­ Act at present clearly states that a breath alcohol analyses, or their equivalent-breath or blood specimen is to be given as required analyses. by a police officer. As opposed to the concentration of alcohol The only person who is generally required in venous blood, the concentration of to give blood for testing where a breath­ alcohol in arterial blood is a much more analysing instrument is available is a person accurate indication of the concentration of who, forthwith upon being required to alcohol being delivered to the brain, which supply a breath specimen, produces to the is what really controls the behaviour pattern member of the Police Force who made the of the individual. In this respect, breath requisition his driver's licence endorsed by tests, in so far as they more accurately a district superintendent or superintendent reflect systemic arterial-blood concentrations, that the qualified medical practitioner named should be more desirable than the analyses in the endorsement has certified in writing of venous blood, in medico-legal that, by reason of a stated illness or dis­ considerations. ability, such person is incapable of pro­ Again the honourable member for Mour­ viding a specimen of his breath or the pro­ ilyan quotes from his transcript, where Mr. vision of such a specimen by him could Brewer asks of Dr. Lynch- adversely affect his health. "Is it not true that a reading of .2 The honourable member for Mourilyan also per cent obtained on the breathalyzer queried whether accidents on country roads could come from a blood-alcohol concen­ involve transients or locals. According to tration of anywhere between .172 per cent him, and I quote: "in general, they are not and .267 per cent." caused by local residents, . . . " Contrary 3464 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill to the honourable member's thinking, statis­ in the number of vehicles using the roads. tics tend to show that by far the majority Other factors would include increased numbe!1s of accidents in any given centre involve of licensed drivers and increased mileage drivers who hold driver's licences issued in travelled. It is not therefore possible to that centre. caJtegorically state that any particular measure has had a specific result. Mr. F. P. MOORE: I rise to a point of order. The Minister has just challenged me It goes without saying that there is no on the statement I made. I asked him single solution to the road toll. However, to produce the evidence in the House during certain inferences can be drawn from statis­ the second-reading debate. tics. During the year ended June 1968, deaths and injuries in Queensland per 1,000 Mr. SPEAKER: Order! It is obvious that motor vehicles regiSJtered were 17, and fell the honourable member does not know what to 14 during the year ended June 1973. constitutes a point of order. There is no valid point of order. It is generally accepted that a large pro­ portion of the population may be deterred Mr. F. P. MOORE: I rise to a point of by legislation alone, but that compliance order again. by a certain percentage is often contingent on increased probability of detection. There Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is no point is no doubt about that. There was during of order. the year ended June 1973 an increase of 32.8 per cent in traffic enforcements over Mr. K. W. HOOPER: Mr. Speaker, I the year ended June 1968. I think the quoted from the honourable member's speech. inference can reasonably be drawn thaJt the I was answering him from recorded statis­ 1968 drink-driving legislation, coupled with tics. I cannot be clearer than that. The increased probability of detection, has con­ inference to be drawn from this is that tributed at least in part to reduction in people are involved in accidents within the the accident rate. areas where they are living. As I said, this is recorded in staJtistics. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Minister for Transport, the Honourable C. K. As usual, the contribution by the honour­ Jones, recently called for the introduction able member for Landsborough was con­ of random breathalyser testing in Australia. structive, but it was most unfortunate that The Minister, who was addressing a seminar from the outset he had to contend with on road accidents being held in Canberra, a barrage of rowdy and pointless inter­ said he was all for random testing-not out­ jections, just as I have had to. He did, side clubs or hotels, but on the roads. however, take issue on the possibility that a member of the community could be Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is far too gaoled for a first offence of driving a motor much audible conversation in the Chamber. vehicle with a blood-alcohol concentration of .08 per cent. I have already referred Mr. K. W. HOOPER: Mr. Jones said- to this point but I will again emphasise out "It is time to stop pussyfooting with of deference to the honourable member's the drunk driver. There is nothing in the comment, that a gaol sentence is not man­ morality of our civil rights that gives us datory except for a third offence of driving the 'right' to kill someone with a motor­ under the influence of liquor or a drug, car." or associated offences under the criminal code, such as dangerous driving, or for I said at the introductory stage that the Bill driving a vehicle, or obtaining or attempting does not go as far as providing for random to obtain a driver's licence whilst under testing. However, any such positive measure disqualification. aimed at reducing the road toll certainly cannot be discounted for all time. I note his comments on the education of the community as a whole. The Govern­ I commend the Bill to the House. ment appreciates its responsibiHty in this regard and has made specific allocations from Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (8.16 p.m.): In the Liquor Act Trust Fund moneys for the absence of the Opposition's shadow Minis­ such educational purposes. The allocation ter for Transport (Mr. Ray Jones), who is in to the Department of Transport, which is Melbourne because of a family bereavement, expended through the Queensland Road Safety I shall be leading for the Opposition at the Council, for the current financial year is second-reading and Committee stages of the $35,000. Bill, and I shall be supported by members of the Opposition's transport committee and by The final speaker was the honourable other honourable members on this side of member for Toowoomba South, who sug­ the House. gested that no evidence has been offered to show that the drink-driving legislation Let me make it quite clear to the Minister introduced in August 1968 has been effective and Government members from the very in reducing the road toll. As he would be beginning that the Opposition in this Parlia­ fully aware, there are a great many faotors ment will not be stampeded into supporting which have a bearing on the road accident any legislation, irrespective of the Govern­ rate, not the least of which is the increase ment's views on the principles contained in it. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3465

It is the Government's legislation; the Oppo­ To his credit, the Mini~ter went into sition will support what it believes to be great detail in giving us the complete picture worthy of support, in helping to reduce the of road-traffic accidents in this State for the road toll and overcome the problem of June quarter. We were given the number drink-driving in this State that has been of breathalyser and blood-alcohol tests ~hat outlined by the Minister. were taken. Out of 7,535 road accidents, a Let me also make it clear to the House total of 499 tests gave a positive reading. that any change in the Opposition's attitude We should have liked a further breakdown to the amendiug legislation introduced in of accident figures to indicate what are bad 1968 has been made because it has now areas. had time to study the full effects of that In my capacity as shadow Minister for legislation and its implications. police I turn il:o the report of the Com­ The Opposition agrees with the Minister missioner of Police for the year ended 30 that any amending legislation should be for June 1973. That is the latest report available the whole of the State and must not be to us. Irrespective of what is contained in enforced on a sectional basis. the legislation, the members of the Queens­ land Police Force have the duty of enforcing Certain changes in administration will take the law, just as the courts will have the place if the Government succeeds in having duty of imposing the penalties provided the Bill passed through the second-reading for in the amending Bill, after they have and Committee stages; but, as the Minister considered the evidence before them. We has stated, it is a restatement of many of learn from that report that, during the year the provisions in the existing Act. Although under review, the second objective of the he mentioned at the introductory stage the Police Force in this State was to do some­ stiffer penalties that will apply, he did not thing to reduce the motor vehicle accident refer to them again tonight. The provisions rate. In his report the Commissioner said of the Bill also provide, of course, for at page 2- disqualification for longer periods, and even "The second objective of the police for for complete disqualification, from holding 1972-73 was to reduce by 2 per cent the a driving licence. number of casualty accidents per motor In view of the Minister's criticism tonight vehicle." of contributions made by honourable mem­ He later con~inued- bers on this side of the House to the debate at the introductory stage, I remind "It seems that fatalities are related to him that since he took over this portfolio driver attitudes and mental states. For he has been battling for some time in the this reason police gave greater attenil:ion Government parties-nine months or longer to drivers under the influence of alcohol -to bring this legislation before the Cham­ (charges up 21 per cent)." ber. If we go back through Press statements At page 14 of the report a table is provided we read that this legislation was supposed under the heading of "Drink Driving­ to have been introduced in the August­ Breath and Blood Tests", and the various December session. Honourable members figures are broken down. As strange as it opposite should not start to attack the Oppo­ may seem in view of the extra work being sition without first looking at what has carried out by the Police Force in an happened within their own ranks in regard endeavour to reduce the accident figures, to this legislation. we find the following figures in the report- Mr. Frawley interjected. "Actions 1971-72 1972-73 Increase Mr. NEWTON: The honourable member ------for Murrumba o]ten shoots his mouth off Request for specimen of in this Chamber. I am glad that he is breath on test testing doing so tonight. If he had been in the device (Alcotest) . . . . 3,404 6,197 2,793 Chamber and listened to the speeches from Requirement for specimen his side when the Bill was introduced, he of breath for analysis would realise that it was clearly indicated (Breathalyser) .. .. 3,285 4,328 1,043 that a number of Government members are Requirement for specimen of blood for laboratory not satisfied about certain aspects of the test 1,062 1,224 162 " legislation. That was proven here tonight. Because the Government lowered the legal The report then sets out the figures for drinking age in this State to 18 years, we drink-driving offences throughout the State. knew that it would take other legislative They are- action ~o counter the possible backwash at election time as a result of reforms of 1970-71 3,904 that nature. That is the way the Government 1971-72 3,925 acts all the time. It introduces reforms and 1972-73 4,733 then in an endeavour lto cover up what it The number of offenders brought before the has done it brings in counter reforms to court increased by 808, and this is before make out that Government members are we lowered the drinking age to 18 years. a lot of lily-whites. But they cannot fool I sincerely hope that this will not be the people all the time. significantly reflected in the report that will 3466 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill be brought down by the Commissioner of Mr. NEWTON: It is one aspect, but it Police next year in relation to drink-driving is worth noting that, although radar traps offences. were introduced to stop speeding, they are now being used for another purpose. No-one The point I want to make is that a would argue against that. However, no-one glance at an analysis of drink-driving offences could claim that random 'tests are not being on an area basis reveals that considerable carried out at present. attention has been paid to Brisbane, Cairns and Rockhampton. In many other districts Mr. K. W. Hooper: I do not thing that the figures are significantly lower. I make what I was referring to has that conno­ this point because, when we are dealing tation. with a question of this nature, an analysis Mr. NEWTON: On behalf of the Opposit­ on a district basis gives us some idea of ion let me clear up any doubt that people just what is going on. In researching the might have as to whether random tests can matter over the week-end to discover where be conducted under the Traffic Act by police bad accidents had occurred, I found that officers. They have been carrying them out they occurred not only in the metropolitan and they still are. area but in virtually every pa11t of the State. Arguments both for and against random From time time, articles have been written tests have been put forward. Tonight the on this subject in an endeavour to discover Minister referred to rthem at length, and in just where the trouble lies, and many people the Federal sphere also a member of the have spoken about the various age groups Labor Party has commented on them. Many affected. Some time ago the Police Force persons regard such tests as an infringement introduced a machine known as "The Thing" of people's rights, and there is no doubt to detect drivers who were drinking and that such argument will continue for some driving, and to pick them up on their time. arrival at home or within a period of two The delegation by the Commissioner for hours thereafter. Honourable members will Transport to himself and to others of certain recall the blitzes that have been put on powers was to be expected if the legislation from time to 1time by the Police Force in is to be implemented on a State-wide basis. an effort to overcome this problem. There is no doubt that it is the Minister's I have a newspaper clipping here which intention to relieve police officers of certain reveals details of charges against 23 drink­ duties so that they can be carried out by drivers in one day. Quite a number officers of the Commissioner for Transport. registered a blood-alcohol content of between Naturally this change cannot be put into .08 and .15, the limits outlined in this effect overnight, because Queensland is a very legislation, and some, of course, registered large State with police officers stationed in higher than that. isolated areas. We would like to be able to agree with Mr. K. W. Hooper: There will be certain the Minister that this legislation will over­ areas where we won't be able to do this. night reduce the road toll by 50 per cent. The traffic accident figures for the State Mr. NEWTON: That is the very point I reveal that accid;ents are happening on am making. However, we must ensure that country roads all over the State as well the legislation is enforced. The transfer of as in the metropolitan area. driver-tes.ting from the Police Department to the Department of Transport can be Whilst we are fully aware of the suffering effected quickly in the metropolitan area. But and hardship that are caused by the actions of as the Minister pointed out, driver-testing in drink-drivers to innocent people, we are also country areas will have to be carried out by mindful of the hardship ,that is suffered by the police for quite some time. the families of those drivers who are con­ I emphasise that the Government should victed of driving while under the influence closely scrutinise applicants for appointment of liquor or a drug and imprisoned. as driver testers, particularly when they will be in charge of testing centres. All appli­ The Minister spoke at length about random cants should be thoroughly screened, because breath tests. Under the Traffic Act the Police Force has ample power to conduct such a it is obvious to us, from the experiences of test upon a driver who is driving a vehicle people who have held driving licences for in an unusual manner or a driver who is years and who have had to undergo tests driving a vehicle that has a defect that is to renew their licences, that the present observed by a police officer. All honourable procedure leaves a lot to be desired. It members know that such tests are presently seems to be the policy of a few testers that being carried out. they should inflict further penalties on people who have paid the penalty after a sentence The manning of radar traps in the metro­ has been imposed. Police in the metropolitan politan area has been doubled at night for the area have been very helpful when some specific purpose of apprehending the drink­ unusual practices have been brought to their driver. attention. In the administrative position they hold, they have done a very good job from Mr. K. W. Hooper: That is only one the point of view of public relations. But aspect, isn't it? for the action they have taken in the matters Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3467

raised with them, many more letters would Mr. NEWTON: In the limited time avail­ have been sent to the Minister about people able to study this measure, I have found in charge of the testing centres. !lt is scandal­ that this matter is being looked into in ous that, occasionally, a tester seems to think a number of places including Holland and he has authority to inflict further punishment New South Wales. An article that appeared on a person who has already been punished in the Brisbane "Telegraph" of 28 March for any offence in 'which he was involved. We 1974 reads- have no argument against the transfer of "Must face up to drinking driver. powers. We realise that senior sergeants or "Sydney. Society had not come to grips sergeants have been in charge of the centres, with the problem of drinking and driv­ and these high-ranking officers will now be ing, Judge Shannon said in the Newcastle relieved of this work and will be available for District Court yesterday. other duties. " 'Driving for one person might be a We understand the principle relative to social luxury, but for a bus or truck driver authorised officers, which is being inserted it might be a vital ingredient in in several places. It allows duties to be his capacity to earn,' Judge Shannon said. taken over directly by the Minister for " 'Such consideration in the latter case Transport. might lead to hardship but against this I shall now deal with some of the stiffer must be balanced the potential of injuries penalties imposed under the legislation. Cer­ to others.' tain sections are to be repealed and new "The Judge said driving of motor provisions .inserted. The penalty to be vehicles and consumption of liquor was a imposed on a person driving a motor vehicle great problem, the toll of the road being when disqualified from holding a licence is sad and sickening. to remain the same as in the principal Act. Where such a person drives a motor vehicle "Deterrents must be given substantial in extraordinary situations of emergency, the consideration by the courts. circumstances can be taken into considera­ " 'The courts face dilemmas and con­ tion by the justices concerned. In several flicts dealing with drivers whose licences instances that have been brought to our are necessary in their work', he said. attention, it has been a matter of life or "Judge Shannon was delivering judgment death in getting a person to hospital quickly, on seven appeals by motorists against or getting an expectant mother to hospital. severity of penalties imposed for offences Mr. K. W. Hooper: From what I recall, of driving with the prescribed concentra­ that happened quite recently in the flood tion of alcohol. situation. "He reduced terms of disqualification in Mr. NEWTON: That could well be so. four appeals, but could find no basis for There could be no better example than the altering orders made in lower courts in one cited by the Minister, but other instances the other three. have been brought to our attention. "Judge Shannon said the court faced a The Bill provides for longer periods of dilemma in determining the lease of dis· disqualification or complete disqualification qualifications for drinking drivers. should any person appear in court on a "A motorist's necessity to have his charge of driving a motor vehicle whilst licence in his work was probably a relevant disqualified from holding a licence. In factor." that matter the court has a discretion, after I do not know whether thought has been taking all the evidence into consideration. given to this matter by the Government, We are unable to discover what happens but we make it quite clear that we are to a professional driver whose licence is concerned about this problem. I am sure disqualified for driving under the influence that it has been raised with honourable of alcohol or for committing some other members on both sides of the House. It offences under the Traffic Act outside his is not a problem of easy solution. hours of employment. There are many instances I could cite. A person may have Mr. Chinchen: It means different penal­ to drive a vehicle to earn his livelihood ties for different people, depending on and, in some cases, pay off his truck. The whether they drive for a living or not. It Minister should clarify this position. It seems is a pretty serious problem. to us that, at present, in special circum­ stances, a type of licence has been issued Mr. NEWTON: That is true. It concerns covering certain working hours, in order me that there can be one penalty for one to overcome the situation raised by mem­ group of people and a different penalty for bers of Parliament on behalf of persons in another group of people because of the hard­ this particular category. ship imposed on them, which would double or treble their penalty. Mr. K. W. Hooper: Not necessarily. He need not go to a member of Parliament. I The Minister said tonight that the Bill think you have answered your own ques­ prescribes two offences for driving under tion. He can be taken to the police station the influence of liquor while in charge of and each case has to be judged on its a motor vehicle. The existing legislation own merits. provides for one offence, a blood-alcohol 3468 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

content between .08 and .15. The second Mr. NEWTON: The article stated that offence being created is for a blood-alcohol representatives of the insurance companies concentration of .15 and over. had approached the Minister and brought The Opposition can understand that this matter to his attention. It reads- increased penalties would be applied to a "Compulsory third party pay-outs by person driving with a blood-alcohol content insurance companies are soaring-they ar,e of .15 or more, but it contends that the frequently more than $50,000-----oand the penalty is excessive for the first offence­ changes sought would allow insurance com­ that is, $800 or nine months' imprison­ panies to seek reimbursement in cases ment, or both-and it is quite evident that involving dr,ivers convicted on breath­ the Government has not made a thorough alyser charges. investigation of the type of person who "Transport Minister (Mr. Hooper) who comes within this category. Probably this arrived back in Brisbane yesterday from was said at the introductory stage by mem­ a Sydney seminar in road safety and bers on both sides of the House. I wonder the law said: 'These submissions are being whether an investigation has ever been made examined now by my department.' " into matters such as the following-does the offender suffer from an alcoholic illness? This is what the insurance companies go Has he ever had treatment? What is his on to say- weekly income at the time of conviction? "An insurance company executive said The last question should be a valid con­ their moves to change the legislation were sideration in arriving at a penalty. being urged on Mr. Hooper 'to help with The same applies to a person who has the road toll, and to cut insurance costs.' had a conviction in the previous five years. "The executive said that if the changes Again the penalty by reason of that fact sought to breathalyser laws were granted is very high-18 months' imprisonment. insurance companies would have to make the initial pay-out on compulsory third­ The Opposition's main concern is about any party claims. discussion or agreement between insurance "But after that we could seek redress companies in this State and the Government. from the drunken driver. The Opposition is extremely concerned that "Legally we could not take his home, the Minister has written into the Bill the but money in the bank, shares or other inclusion of a second offence. Does that now give the insurance companies a let-out assets would go. And we could garnishee on the matters they have raised with the his wages for a certain length of rtime. Minister? I suppose the Minister is quite "In fact he might be paying out money aware of the article that appeared under for the rest of his life." the heading, "Insurers seek to make drink I think that is something that must be con­ drivers pay", in which they clearly indicated sidered when looking at the second offence that they were seeking to avoid making that is now being introduced for drink-driv­ payouts on third-party or comprehensive ing. H is very intere&ting ,to note that the insurance policies. report says that when a person is picked up This is a serious situation. While the on an ordinary drink-driving charge, the Minister has told us his reasons for intro­ evidence on which the charge is based ducing the second type of offence, we are revolves around tests such as the driver's anxious to know whether the let-out for speech, mental alertness and ability to walk the insurance companies will come next. a straight line. When is it going to come and what is The, penalty for a first offence where the the Minister's intention on this aspect? hlood alcohol exceeds .08 but is under .15 Instances have been drawn to our attention per cent has been increased from $200 to of persons in their 60's, possibly with no $400 and a term of imprisonment of three previous offences, having the required blood­ months, or both. Again the Opposition alcohol content, being charged, and having notices that aithough there are similar penal­ then encountered trouble with the insurance ties in other Acts-the Vagrants, Gaming companies. and Other Offences Act is a fairly wide Act, However, the insurance companies do for example-even for the worst offences not say anything about the rake-off they provision is made for a penalty for the first had over the years. Some of these motorists offence, an increased penalty for the second might have been driving since they were offence, and a funther increase for the third 17. There is no need for me to elaborate offence, for which imprisonment is also men­ on what the owner of a motor vehicle pays tioned. by way of third-party and comprehensive Mr. Porter: You kill people by using insurance premiums. However, in this article motor-cars. Don't you see any difference? the insurance companies lay it down hot and heavy that they intend to press their Mr. NEWTON: I am not saying that we case further. If I remember correctly, the do not. It is the Opposition's responsibility article went on to say that some 110 insu­ to raise in the House certain matters in the rance companies made representations to Bill on which it wants assurances. I have not the Minister on this matter. said anything about protecting any person !JSing a motor-car on 'the road. I am say­ Mr. K. W. Hooper: What was that? mg-and I would expect many other people Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3469 to agree with me-that the merits of all by chemists or laboratory assistants in those aspects of this very important question must countries where it is used. Probably the be taken into consideration. Minister knows that that happens in a number of countries. Mr. Porter: You are dealing with sudden death. We do not intend to give the Government a blank cheque on this matter. Experience Mr. NEWTON: The honourable member has taught us to be very cautious about for Toowong appears to be very impatient such legislation. We want to hear a lot tonight. I am not, because there is much to more from the Minister on this issue before be said on 'this subject and I intend to give we will agree to specialist police officers it the attention it deserves. Let me make it operating these machines in preference to quite clear to the honourable member that medical practitioners. the Opposition will be moving an amend­ Here again we make our point quite ment at the Committee stages to deal with clear. To our knowledge not one complaint first offences. has been received about the operation of Mr. Porter: To reduce the penalty? the machine by doctors under the existing legislation. In other words, nobody has dis­ Mr. NEWTON: Of course we intend to puted their findings one way or the other reduce it for the first offence. Under •the -neither a police officer nor a person who existing legislation, between .08 and .15 has been submitted to the breathalyser test. is-- In the operation of the machine up to this Mr. Porter: Just how will you cope with juncture justice seems to have been done. the escalation in the number of accidents? That is a very important point. Irrespective of what the Opposition's views on this matter Mr. NEWTON: I suggest that the hoo· may have been in the past, since the ourable member looks at the existing Act. legislation was introduced in 1968 we have It is not proposed to do any.thing as far as bad six years to find out all the imperfections second and third convictions are concerned. and faults of the Act, particularly in relation Previously convicted persons, irrespective of to the use of the breathalyser. what .they may do, seem to have no chance of evading a charge under the new section. Mr. Chinchen: The Opposition has objected Whether they are in the driver's seat or not, to doctors' charges for this. if they have had a previous conviction it Mr. NEWTON: We can quite understand can be held against them for up to five that point of view. It has been indicated years. The Opposition understands, of that it is not easy to get doctors to carry course, that the whole idea of this legislation out the testing. From what we read, Gov­ is to make the provisions of the Act on this ernment medical officers are doing the job aspect much tighter than they were before. quite well. If it is necessary to call upon I wish to deal now with what is probably the services of doctors other than Govern­ the most important point in the legislation. ment medical officers, naturally they would The Minister referred in his introductory expect adequate remuneration for being called speech-I am using his words, not mine-to out at any hour of the day or night. allowing specialised police officers to operate Anything that alters the present position the breathalyser machine. The Minister said must be closely looked at by all honourable that ·the extensive inquiries he had made members. We should like the Minister to indicated that Queensland was the only place give us some idea of what he has in mind, where the police did not operate the and what he knows about what is happening machine. I take i·t that the Minister is going in other States. I have here a newspaper on what is happening in other States of cutting dated 20 June 1973 which reads- Australia. I do not think that he has been "Police officers would be trained and overseas yet; but even if he has not, he has ready to take the place of doctors operating had the same opportunity as I have had to breathalyser equipment if the proposed carry out research and find out just what is Traffic Act amendments became law, an the position with the operation of the breath­ Assistant Police Commissioner (Mr. Dun­ alysers overseas. can) said yesterday. The Minister spoke quite strongly tonight "He said no training in the use of the about the other tests that can be taken. equipment had started yet. But if the A person in this State has no choice of amendment became law the force would be test. If a breathalyser is available, he is geared for it." given a breathalyser test. He is not given an opportunity to say whether he wants to In the report of the Commissioner I could have a breMhalyser test, a blood test or a find nothing dealing with this particular urine test. The law says in strong terms, aspect. If the Government is going ahead "You are a suspected person. There is a with this legislation to allow members of breathalyser available and that is the instru­ the Police Force to operate breathalyser ment that will be used to test you." Quite equipment, we want to know what the a number of countries favour blood and position will be at hospitals. The legis­ urine tests in preference to breathalyser tests. lation provides that any person applying for If the breathalyser is not used by members treatment after an accident, or up to eight of the medical profession, it is operated hours afterwards, can be questioned about 3470 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

the events resulting in the injuries received. or the terms of imprisonment that can It is also stipulated that breathalyser be imposed. From the Minister's remarks machines must be used to carry out tests. I take it that he is not aware of any On the one hand the Minister uses all cases in which persons convicted of first sorts of excuses as to why medical prac­ offences have received both fines and terms titioners should be relieved of the duty of of imprisonment. operating the machines and, on the other, We are very pleased to see the lifting of we find set out all the extra work that the endorsement of cancellation after a must be done in relation to any accident that period of five years if no offence has been occurs involving any person 14 years of committed in the meantime. This is cer­ age and upwards. Such person can be tainly a step in the right direction, because taken to a police station, hospital or any there are among the community many per­ other place authorised under the Act, again sons who have committed one traffic offence for the specific purpose of taking tests to and are determined not to commit a second discover whether he or she is under the offence. As the Minister has pointed out, influence of liquor or a drug. the lifting of such endorsement of cancella­ Nobody could argue against this because tion is subject to other provisions in the it is quite evident that the Government's Bill. intention is to obtain the most up-to-date From time to time people have contacted details of traffic accidents occurring in the their members of Parliament and asked whM State, including their causes. To do this can be done to lift such an endorsement the medical profession is being involved. As after a certain period of ~ime. Of course, I said the Bill provides that up to eight we must tell them that under the Act as hours after an accident anyone seeking treat­ it stands it cannot be removed. Where an ment at a hospital or doctor's surgery can endorsement is not lifted, a person will be be asked a lot of questions. The Bill deals able to appeal to a court and produce also with persons killed in accidents. evidence as to his good behaviour and state of health over a certain period. As I Another part of the legislation that con­ understand it, a medical board of review cerns us is the section dealing with the will be set up to inquire into the state careless driving of a motor vehicle. The of health of a person whose endorsement section is to be amended in two places, one has not been li£ted. This is a step in the of them dealing with the driving of a vehicle right direction for people who may wish on a road or elsewhere and the other with to take advantage of it. Responsibility rests the driving of a vehicle on a road or place. with the court. If there is any doubt, the On close examination this gives a court will resolve it. fairly broad coverage and we should In the Committee stage the Opposition like some indication from the Minister intends to try to extend the principle further as to what these very broad terms include. by giving the court the right to determine, His attention may have been drawn to after hearing all the evidence, what effect something taking place in sporting areas, a penalty will have on a person who drives fenced-in areas, parks or some such place. for his livelihood, and, in warranted cases, The Government should clearly spell out grant a driver's permit limited to his hours its intention. We are firmly convinced, for of employment. When Government mem­ example, that a police officer will have bers examine our amendment, I am certain power to visit a person at his place of that they will support it. We do not suggest residence within two hours of a report of that anybody other than the court should an incident. We should like to know the have any authority to grant limited driving Government's thoughts on this aspect. permits. We are saying that only the I come now to the disqualification of judge hearing a case,-whether it be a drivers who have committed certain offences. first offence or not-should have authority The period of two years for disqualification to consider all aspects of the case when seems to be applied as a general principle, determining the penalty. but the Bill also refers to disqualification We are concerned about the provision for offences committed within the previous covering vehicle loads. At the present time five years without any specific order being vehicles are weighed on weighbridges on made. main roads throughout the State. In this Generally the Bill tightens up the pro­ instance, there has been a complete reversal visions relating to the issue of licences. It of policy. We believe this task could be r~fers to fraud and unlawful possession of carried out by officers of the department licences, the power of a court to disqualify concerned, but members of the Police Force c_onvicted persons from holding or obtaining are to be given this responsibility. After licences and the effect of disqualificMion. listening to comments by the Minister for It also contains specific provision for the Works and Housing and reading the Police imposition of a $400 fine or a term of Commissioner's report, it is obvious that an imprisonment for 12 months, or both at attempt is being made to unload duties on the discretion of the court. The Opposition departments which are responsible for l!hem. agrees that something must be done to over­ It is strange that some parts of this legisla­ come a very serious situation, but would tion relieve police of certain duties while like to see a scaling down of the fines others involve them in extra duties. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3471

Opposition members will not be opposing not have to do a lock step, like chained the second reading of the Bill. It contains prisoners, all adopting identical attitudes and certain provisions that will assist people even almost wearing identical expressions as who, unfortunately, fall foul of the law the outside bosses of the party dictate. for being in charge of a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or For the honourable member to chide the for committing other offences. However, Government for lowering the drinking age we intend to move certain amendments at and to suggest that this would be a con­ the Committee stage to try to overcome tributing factor to the road toll is hypocrisy some problems that we envisage. We of the highest order. The fact is that because appreciate what the Minister said about some members of this House did not think the seriousness of the road toll and its the same way as the remainder of the mem­ effect, and how people suffer as a result bers on that matter, this particular thing of actions of drink-drivers. We realise, could have been stopped. But what hap­ too, that there are certain matters which pened? Every member of the Opposition­ cannot be embodied in the Traffic Act. man and woman-voted to let this piece of They are matters such as the lowering of legislation through. I suggest that the strict­ the alcohol content of drink, giving a person ures of the honourable member for Belmont assistance, or having a look at him when carry very little weight indeed. first charged with this offence, and the medical board that is being set up under Just what is the Bill all about? It is the clause amending the schedule to the about people's lives. It is not about some Act. abstruse, remote, academic matter. One w~:r~:tld never know from the way the OppositiOn If a medical board is to be set up to subshadow Minister spoke in the second­ assist in determining whether a person should reading debate and the speech after speech receive his licence back or have any endorse­ we heard from Opposition members at the ment on it removed, one of the main introductory stage that this Bill was about principles should be to use that same the chilling, horrifying matter of maimed medical board to look at any person who and mangled bodies. It is about diabolically commits the offence of driving under the scarred faces, paraplegics, quadriplegics, influence of liquor, in an effort to see if there human vegetables and basket cases. is any way to assist him instead of allowing him to commit the offence time and time This Bill is about the awful tragedy again. This happens in Queensland as it suffered not only by the immediate victim of does elsewhere and something should be a road smash but also by those closely done for such people. associated with him. The sad part of it is On behalf of the Opposition I say that that so many of the worst tragedies of the we agree to certain principles of the Bill. road involve young people-bright young There are others we have questioned. We will lives cut off in the flower of their promise. not challenge the second reading of the Bill, One would never guess that this is what the but will have something to say at the Com­ Bill is about from the casual, nonchalant, mittee stage. almost throw-away attitude of honourable members opposite. Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (9.17 p.m.): We The Bill treats the raging epidemic of have had from the honourable member for the road toll-that epidemic which every Belmont an extraordinary, marathon, stone­ three months causes 1,000 Australians to die walling effort. Why in heaven's name would on the roads. As I say, all too many of them we want this sort of effort at this stage of are the flower of our youth. One in every the sitting? Nobody would scream louder than Opposition members should the Gov­ 500 persons can expect to be involved in ernment decide, at a later stage, that some a bad traffic smash. The Commonwealth type of time-table be applied to the passage Bureau of Census and Statistics revealed of legislation. This was the second-reading that people are now being killed on the speech by the subshadow Minister for Trans­ roads at a rate three times faster than port (Mr. Newton), who led the Opposition population increase. debate. In the flesh, of course, he is a very This is what we should be talking about. substantial subshadow Minister. We are not discussing academic theories. But he made an extraordinary speech in We are not discussing so many austere so many ways. He castigated the Govern­ statistics. We are not fiddling with the ment for the delay in producing the Bill. Now question of a person's right to have a social that it has been introduced, he is as full drink and to drive his own car. We are of criticism of it as a dog is full of fleas. talking about sudden death. We are talking It is a sort of "tails I win, heads you lose" about the smashed faces, lacerated brains and attitude. He finds something significant in grotesquely fractured bones. We are talking the fact that all Government members do not about ruptured spleens and aortic blood think exactly the same way on all aspects gushing out onto the bitumen. We are talking of this Bill. Indeed, they do not on many about death on the road, which is now run­ other matters that come before the House. ning at three times the rate of deaths from I suppose its significance is, as I have pointed all manner of infectious and parasitic out before, that Government members do diseases. 3472 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

It is little wonder that I and many others We need ;to have more effective measures find the Opposi~ion's attitude to this Bill for checking driving breaches, of course. both staggering and dismaying. The amend­ The certainty of being caught for a breach ments that have been circulated through is one of 1the surest deterrents there can be. the Chamber indicate that the Opposition I ·Uhink that, without doubt, we d!'ive our wants to draw the teeth from the legislation. cars at excessive speeds for modem-day con­ In the introductory debate-and I am sure ditions. There are hosts of reasons. But to it will happen again in this one-speaker believe that liquor is not part of the problem after speaker said, "This Bill is useless. We is, 1to me, quite absurd, because every study, all agree that the road carnage is dreadful both statistical and clinical, in every country and something has to be done about it." overwhelmingly proves otherwise. WhaJt do they propose should be done? What all the •tests and trials have shown is Nothing at all but to reduce the endeavours that driving is essentially a matter of judg­ the Government is making to ensure that ment. With very good judgment a driver can the roads will become a little safer because overcome the handicaps of bad roads, poor people will be deterred from doing the things cars and all the rest; but with bad judg­ that they may currently do. No real answer ment all the advantages of the best of roads, is given by the Opposition to the problem the best of cars and the best of conditions to be faced. Nobody likes the harsh methods can be dissipated. Whether liquor has a that must be adopted, but the fact is that stimulant or a depressive effect is quite we are involved in an all-out war with ~he beside the point; it depends upon the per­ motor-car in terms of trying to reduce son. But •there is no doubt that liquor the road toll. To talk about all the minor impairs judgment, and clinical tests have matters such as driver education and so on shown over and over again that even one is to totally burke the real problem. In or two drinks can seriously impair driving general, we have had from .the Opposition judgment. -and I say that, unfortunately, we will That is one of the reasons why I am con­ have it again with monotonous consistency vinced that we should, at some time in the in this debate--the line, "This Bill is no future, look at .the problem of conferring good. These measures are unsatisfactory.", licences. I think that the good driver is with nothing at all proposed in place of not only the one who has quick reflexes and the sterner measures of the Bill. good vision and knows the rules; he is the one There seems to me to be on the part of who can exercise judgment. In order to so many members here an obsessive con­ find out whether he can or not, we need to cern with the driver's rights. It is suggested know a lot more about him. I think that it is wrong to place greater reliance driving tests should ascertain what kind of on the breathalyser; it is wrong to be harsh personality men or women have-whether with the drinking driver; it is wrong to they are unduly aggressive, whether they separate the drinker from his lethal car. are likely to translate their personal problems If honourable members opposite are prepared into the handling of a car on the road, to wade through the acres of corpses that whether they are inadequate under pressure. will be produced by an unrestricted licence Mr. Houston interjected. on the road in order to preserve these fiddling little academic points of supposed Mr. PORTER: The Leader of the personal rights, they can accept the respon­ Opposition says that many people would sibility for it. not have a driving licence. Mr. Houston: You would not have one. I find this obsession with the so-called rights of the driver quite amazing-but of Mr. PORTER: As usual, the honourable course they express no concern at all for gentleman is trying to be nasty in a personal, maHcious sort of way. Perhaps I would the victim! We see ~his attitude on the part of the Opposition in other areas of not. If I failed that test, I would be con­ tent to abide by it. Many others should implementation of the law. Let us always be in the same boat. remember that the driver who offends and makes himself liable to receiving a penalty I say that the Bill, whatever may be Its shortcomings, is an attempt to cope with a does it by choice; but the viotim-the innocent situation that is acute and growing worse victim-has no choice. I believe we should with every day that passes. We need to go be infinitely more concerned with the safety much fllllther yet in many other ways before of potential victims of traffic accidents than we will really cope with road carnage. As with the alleged rights of the driver who has far as it goes, the Bill is useful, and I transgressed. cel'tainly support it. All honourable members will admit that Mr. HARVEY (Stafford) (9.28 p.m.): The the Bill is in no sense a total answer to Opposition believes •that the Bill contains the problem of road fatalities. There are still three pentinent points. Unfortunately, the associated problems-trying to find safer Opposition members have to wait until 1Jhey cars, constructing betJter roads, and cer­ have a Bill in their hands before they can tainly having driver tests that include in­ study it. Government members have the depth psychological assessment of an appli­ advantage of being able •to debate it and cant for a licence. wrangle over it for months. They know Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3473 what they want in a Bill before it even We all acknowledge that. Eac~ an.d. every reaches the introductory stage. It is obvious, person is different, whether he IS dnvmg on from Press comments, of course, that they the road or doing something else. The have debated and argued this Bill for several Leader of the Opposition went on- months, and I think it is significant that "We have to minimise the chance of the Minister had to argue and debate and or eliminate road accidents." discuss its provisions even to get it to the We acknowledge that problem, and many introductory stage, let alone the second­ facets have to be considered. The Leader reading stage. In all fairness, therefore, I of the Opposition further said that we need must commend members of the Opposition to incorporate driver-training instruction as for the job they did in debating something part of the syllabus for secondary school vir·tua!ly on .the blind, not knowing all the students. He continued- ramifications of the provisions, and depend­ ing on the information supplied by the Min­ "This instruction will stress safe driving, ister in his introductory speech. I might add rules of the road, the effect of speed that the Minister did the right thing by the and power on car performance, the effect Opposition's shadow Minister (Mr. Ray of 1tyres on road surfaces and the ill Jones) in providing him with a copy of his effects of alcohol and carelessness. We speech so that he might follow it. That was believe that most students will be car a very fair approach, and I commend the drivers in the future and training should Minister for it. begin at a time when their minds are tuned to learning." I reiterate that the Opposition is con­ This is very important. If we train children cerned about three points: the first offender; at Jthat age, they will be aware. of what police operation of breathalysers; and •the a motor-car can do and what rt cannot issuing of limited driver's permi·ts. These are do. They need to learn abou! t~e equili~ri~m pertinent points, and I think there is some of a motor vehicle when It IS negotratmg reason for concern about them. a corner and its adherence to different types of roads-metal roads, biltumen roads, cement I am led to believe that when ~he Bill providing for the last amendment of the roads and dirt roads. We know the effect that Traffic Act was before the House, the loose gravel can produce. A car is more likely honourable member for Toowong and his to skid on a wet concrete road than on colleagues on the Government side said a wet bitumen road. I saw road construction that i·t would be ·the be-all and end-all of being carried out in England. After the road carnage because of what it would do asphalt or concrete surface is laid, an inch to drink-drivers. It is quite obvious that this of metal is rolled into the road in order has not been the case, as the statistics prove. to provide a good grip for the wheels of The fact ·that the Act is again being motor vehicles. I could produce photographs amended also proves that. Once again this to show the Minister what I saw being Bill is not the be-all and end-all in traffic done over there. Very course gravel is used. legislation. There are many facets and We find that smooth gravel, particularly ramifications to be taken into account. The in cement roads, is dangerous. Traction and problem is not peculiar •to this State; it is factors like that are all very important and a world-wide problem, and we must ack­ have Jto be considered. Unfortunately, most nowledge that. If any honourable gentle­ motorists are not aware of the mechanics man opposite could truthfully say that he of the vehicles they are handling. This is was introducing be-all and end-all legislation something that they should be taught. in this field, he would become world In a previous speech I mentioned the renowned. need for better construction of country roads. We confer with local authorities in order The question has been posed: What is to get them to raise the standard of safety the A.L.P.'s attitude and policy on such requirements. We concur with the Govern­ matters? It has been spelt out on many ment's aWtude in that field. occasions. Of course, often it does not suit It is ridiculous to apply the same speed some people to turn up their hearing aid. limits to the family car and a heavily loaded Enunciating the Australian Labor Party's commercial vehicle. We cannot tolerate the attitude, the Leader of the Opposition said- overloading of large commercial vehicles. "At the outset we must remember that Both the driver of the vehicle and the owner human beings are not machines and that of the vehicle must be held responsible traffic control in all aspects is very much for overloading, because it poses a Jthreat a human problem.'' to other drivers on the roads. Recently I asked some questions on this very issue People react in different ways to many of the Minister in charge of police. I have factors. When some people get behind the noticed many trucks losing their loads, which wheel of a motor-car, all they want to do is an indication that they have been over­ is speed. Some people treat other motorists loaded. On bends, particularly at the Break­ on the road with respect. The Leader of fast Creek corner, many accidents of this the Opposition continued- type have occurred with resultant delays "Every driver is an individual and can­ to traffic. Therefore, in general, we commend not be stereotyped or adjusted to conform the Minister for what is being done in to the same pattern." regard to both traffic and transpol1t. 3474 Traffic Act Amendment Bill (2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

I think we should attempt to engender We have the road engineers. We need the the right attitude in drivers of motor vehicles. money and the policies that will really do Many people disregard the right-of-way rule. something to reduce the road carnage. Because they are driving big vehicles, they One of the matters about which the think they can force their way across an Opposition is very concerned is the issue intersection. They depend on bluffing the of limited drivers' licences. We believe we drivers of small cars out of their way. I need to make individual judgments of think many of the accidents which occur irresponsible drivers. If a man earns his on straight country roads must be attributed livelihood by driving, we must consider what to this cause. I think many motorists living happens to his family if we take his licence in those areas are given this sort of treat­ from him. Perhaps he knows no work ment by drivers who hug the centre of the other than driving a transport vehicle. There­ road, whether or not it is divided by traffic fore, by depriving him of his licence, we lines. are depriving his family of their livelihood. The third point I wish to mention is the On the other hand, that person, by his lighting of traffic routes. This is a very irresponsible action, could kill the bread­ important matter and I have had quite a winner of another innocent family and deprive deal to do with it. For what it is worth, them of their livelihood. Therefore, we have I mention to the Minister high-mast lighting to strike a balance between the two. We as against lighting on the crest of a do not encourage the irresponsible drunk hill, kerbside pole lighting, property align­ on the road, but we do not wish to see ment lighting, pavement lighting or silhouette his family victimised as a result of our lighting. actions. I consider that for a first offence, provided it was committed in his own pri­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I think the hon­ vate car and outside working hours, he should ourable member is getting away from the have the right to apply for a provisional principles of the Bill. licence. The community should not have to provide him and his family with social Mr. HARVEY: This is all associated with service benefits. Too many people are rely­ traffic and traffic safety. ing on those benefits, at present. As well as looking at that aspect, we must ensure Mr. SPEAKER: The honourable member that we give every protection to the innocent is drifting away from the principles of the Bill. party on the road. I reiterate: a drunken driver is a worse Mr. HARVEY: The Brisbane City Council criminal than a person who goes armed with installed silhouette lighting on pedestrian a gun. It is unfortunate that our community crossings so that motorists could more easily has adopted a totally irresponsible attitude in see persons using them. This form of light­ a comparison of this type. Whereas it calls ing ensured that the person using the cross­ for a term of life imprisonment to be imposed ing was bathed in light. This has reduced upon a murderer, it regards the killing by a accidents at crossings. In the past the drunken motorist of another person merely as single light did virtually nothing. a piece of bad luck for the motorist. Every driver is an individual. He cannot Mr. Jensen: The killing with the gun would be sterotyped; he cannot be adjusted to be premeditated; the other would not. conform to the same pattern in the com­ munity. We must realise that, irrespective Mr. HARVEY: I concede that point. How­ of any education programme, we will have ever, in many instances the victim of a on our roads drivers who are tired and gunman is not an innocent party. By con­ likely to fall asleep whether as a result of trast the victim of a drunken driver certainly drinking alcohol or for some other reason. is an innocent pal'ty. Some drunken drivers I have had the experience on a long trip of have even caused the mass slaughter of having to pull into the side of the road occupants of a car. I have no qualms what­ to avoid falling asleep. Some people fail soever in stating my attitude on this point. to do this and are likely to fall asleep. Many people drive as they live. Some have It is interesting to note that section 328 an irresponsible attitude to life and drive of the Criminal Code provides- as they live. They are a danger on the "Any person who unlawfully does any road. act, or omits to do any act which it is his duty to do, by which act or omission I note that on 10 June 1973 the present bodily harm is actually caused to any Minister for Transport said, "We will never person, is guilty of a misdemeanour, and cure the traffic accident problem completely. is liable to imprisonment with hard labour All we can hope for is to educate drivers." for two years." [ acknowledge that. If we cannot eliminate the problem entirely, all we can hope to Section 328A of the Criminal Code, to which do is improve the situation. Road traffic reference is made in the Bill, states- accidents in this country cost us as a nation "Any person who drives a motor vehicle at least $800,000,000 a year. Therefore I on a road or in a public place dangerously am particularly pleased to see what has been is guilty of a misdemeanour and is liable done in the Federal sphere quite recently. to a fine of five hundred pounds or to Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3475

imprisonment with hard labour for two 'I am rather concerned that in our "Manual years or to both such fine and imprison­ of Traffic Control Devices", and the Traffic ment, or he may be summarily convicted Code applicable to same, we are treating before two justices in which case he is people as statistics. When referring to pedes­ liable to a fine of one hundred pounds trian crossings or school crossings, the Traffic or to imprisonment with hard labour for Code clearly indicates that pedestrian cros­ six months or to both. . ." sing signs are not warranted unless in each The Traffic Act must be read in conjunction two hours on an average day the number with the Criminal Code, because I notice of pedestrians crossing within 50 feet of the that in the Code the term "public place" proposed site exceeds 50 per hour. A life, includes- unlike a road sign, cannot be measured in dollars and cents. For school crossings "every place of public resort open to or the code says that during the same period used by the public as of right and any the number of vehicles per hour in Brisbane field, ground, park, reserve, garden, wharf, and suburban areas passing along the car­ pier, jetty, market," riageway must number at least 600. and so on. Until I found that provision I was of the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon­ opinion that riders of mini-bikes in council ourable member to tell me where there is yards or in the car parks of drive-in shopping any reference in the Bill to this matter. I centres were outside the duress of the law, have not yet seen any reference to it and and I am sure that many other persons share I should appreciate it if the honourable my former view. member would tell me where this matter is Of the total number of traffic accidents in referred to. If he cannot do so, I ask Queensland, nearly 33 per cent occur in him to return to the principles of the Bill. rural areas and account for 40 per cent of I have run out of patience. fatalities. This would indicate that motor vehicle accidents are generally more serious Mr. HARVEY: On the Traffic Act, on on country roads than in urban areas. Of the matter of safety- the accidents in our rural areas, 26 per cent Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I am referring to happen at road junctions, 32 per cent on the Bill. I ask the honourable member to bends in roads and 42 per cent on straight apply himself to it. stretches. How do we approach this problem? It is Mr. HARVEY: I have specified three easy to imagine that a driver approaching a pertinent points with which we should be road junction or a bend that is not clearly particularly concerned. On the issue of indicated would exercise some caution. I limited drivers' permits, we believe that the suppose that some Country Party members court should not grant an application unless would complain that most of the money is the applicant satisfies it that he has com­ spent on city roads and very little is spent mitted the offence in circumstances that were on country roads. Our vast road system not related to the use of a motor vehicle throughout the State has not been designed in connection with his work or employment for high-powered vehicles. The high per­ and that the holding of a driver's licence centage of accidents on straight roads can by him is necessary to enable him to con­ be attributed to boredom and drowsiness. tinue in his work or employment. Further, A driver has a tendency to tire on a straight we believe that a limited driver's permit road. Should we construct curves 1n straight should be issued for a period up to 12 roads, or what action should we take? months. This is necessary, because under this clause we believe a person should not Mr. O'Donnell: I think narrow gravel roads be deprived of the opportunity of earning in country areas are a contributing factor. his livelihood. We agree that the court Mr. Hartwig: Why don't you go outside should have power to examine hardship and help him? associated with the penalty and, in consider­ ing an application by a person who has lost Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I remind the hon­ his licence, and has applied for a provisional ourable member for Stafford that we are licence, that person should be given a limited not dealing with roads. I ask him to return driver's licence under certain conditions that to the principles of the Bill. the court may fairly determine. The con­ ditions may be such that he may use it Mr. HARVEY: Referring to the White only in connection with his work, for a Paper on "Town Traffic in Britain" I think certain type of vehicle, or in a certain locality. it is well to point out that on "Road Safety" it said- We consider that those are matters worthy "The most notable single measure in of consideration. We do not necessarily road safety in recent years has been the condone making the fine for an initial offence new law aimed at preventing drinking as high as it is. Relating this to what was before driving and embodied in the Road contained in the 1968 legislation, we con­ Safety Act 1967;" sider that nothing has really been achieved by increasing the monetary fine. Considering the We are fortunately following that pattern. present value of money, no material benefit 3476 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

has been gained. Therefore we beiieve that country wants. I have no respect or sym­ avenues other than those recommended in pathy for the offender if his drunkenness the Bill should be used. renders him a menace on the road; but I have less respect for ill-founded legislation that Mr. ROW (Hinchinbrook) (9.51 p.m.): At is likely to create as much social injustice the risk of incurring the Minister's dis­ as the evil it is intended to cure. pleasure, I rise to speak to the Bill with mixed feelings. I hope I can make my In spite of the Bill, the true drunken point without relegating myself entirely to driver will continue to inflict trouble until the ranks of the renegades or even having he is apprehended; so let his apprehension to go as far as joining the ranks of honour­ be swift and effected by legislation. I able members opposite. entirely agree with such action. However, let us not inflict unnecessary hardship upon Opposition Members interjected. moderate people, as appears likely ender Mr. ROW: I knew that would draw some this legislation. favourable comment from Opposition I believe that the law-enforcement capacity members. of the State should be augmented more by I do not doubt the sincerity of the Minister practical and physical application than by and his advisers in bringing these proposals legislation based on purely technical and forward. I commend the Minister on his statistical criteria. singleness of purpose in his approach to the matter. However, I believe quite sincerely Some very worthy academic and technical that some provisions of the Bill are extremely support for the legislation has been heard controversial. The misgivings of members from our medically qualified colleagues. I on both sides of the Chamber are justifiable. do not discredit their professional ability. However, I would say that they are perhaps I refer particularly to the proposal which could result in gaol sentences being imposed subjective and clinically minded. I do upon first offenders found guilty of being in not say that as a criticism. It is a neces­ charge of a motor vehicle while technically sary part of their profession; in fact, it under the influence of alcohol. In my opinion is an inevitable part of their profession. this decision rests entirely in the hands of One said that the population is in l!he grip the magistrate, despite the Minister's of the grape. assurances to the contrary. So was Omar Khayyam. He was in I had intended speaking at the intro­ the grip of the grape, but he was not ductory stage, but could not because of the confused by the mobility of the modern time factor so that, Mr. Speaker, if some motor vehicle. He still enjoyed his alcohol. of my remarks in my second-reading speech Nobody put him in gaol. He was a drinking tend to be broader than you might consider pedestrian. to be appropriate, I hope you will forgive me. While on the subject of drinlcing pedest­ rians, I think it is worth noting that, though Mr. Bromley: We'll look after you. we hear much about drinking drivers, we do not hear a great deal about drinking Mr. ROW: I thank the honourable member pedestrians. I understand that a drinking for South Brisbane. pedestrian might have been involved in an Socially, the partaking of alcohol is an accident close to Padiament House this accepted and common practice in our society. evening. The point I make is this: aren't we It is this practice which has largely motivated rather over-emphasising the effect of alcohol the introduction of this legisla:tion. The on one segment of the community-the Minister for Transport and his advisers, no person exercising his rights by holding a doubt acting in good faith, find themselves in driver's licence-to the exclusion of all the centre of a challenging situation; I do others? However, reverting to Omar not doubt that for one moment. This is a Khayyam the drinking pedestrian-he became controversial matter and they really cannot a famous philosopher and not a famous be blamed for adopting a hard line. Perhaps criminal. they had little option in the drcumstances and in the light of the present knowledge of Mr. Casey: You can still be charged the causes of the road toll in this country. with being drunk in charge of a horse, so Omar Khayyam could still have been in It cannot be denied that the road toll is a trouble. staggering, social problem. Are we com­ promising or compounding the effect of this Mr. ROW: In his instance it might have carnage by sending breadwinners to gaol for been a camel. participating in a social habit which is not always responsible for road deaths? Social I point out that we seem to be compound­ drinking is not necessarily dangerous drink­ ing the problem by taking drastic and ing. The honest and moderate citizen may unpopular measures, the _effect. of which now well find himself in prison because may in some cases cause difficulties ~s. gre~t of the extreme actions of legislators. I do as the road toll itself unless proviswn IS not think that this is what the public of this made for special circumstances. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3477

What happens to the family of the man The penalty for drink-driving is drastic who depends on his licence for his liveli­ by comparison with penalties for other hood and who has had his licence sus­ offences, and I think that the discrepancy pended indefinitely-perhaps even for life­ is too great to be acceptable to the ordinary or has been imprisoned? This point has been person in the community. Breathalyser tests adverted to by members of the Opposition are comparatively easy to apply. A person both this evening and at the introductory has no defence against a mechanical device stage. Often such a person is a compara­ handled by a perhaps over-zealous police­ tively moderate offender. He might be man, a policeman who perhaps has not a salesman. He might have a young family. much confidence in the application of the I have had personal experience of an device, or a policeman who is concerned insurance salesman who had lost his driver's about his role because he thinks he is licence and his job, with the result that entering into the domain of professional he had no means of supporting his wife qualifications. All those things militate against and young child. He was in desperate the person who is undergoing the test, and straits and came to me for assistance. Of I think that legislative provision for the use course, there was nothing I could do to of breathalysers by policemen is open to get his driver's licence back under any con­ ques>tion. That point has been made by ditions. I could not ask the police to break many speakers who have preceded me in the law. the debate. Because of that, I rather lean towards the In addition, of course, a vehicle owner suggestion in the amendment to be proposed can be arrested outside his motor vehicle. at the Committee stage by honourable mem­ He may be in the act of securing the bers opposite, that is, the issue of limited vehicle. He may realise that he is liable driver's permits. I also refer honourable to the penalty of the law because he has members to a recent Press article in which taken alcohol and decided to lock his vehicle a Melbourne road safety expert, Dr. G. and leave it in 1he street. If he is apprehended Brown, suggested that suspended drinking while doing so, he is liable, and could drivers be allowed to drive in working hours. go to gaol. Surely that is rather an extreme The article said- penalty in the circumstances. If the police "Dr. Brown, the deputy chairman of were equipped to carry out preventive the Road Safety and Traffic Authority, measures, they would never have to be said today: 'Victoria would do well to relegated to the role of ~echnical machine study a new Dutch law which distinguishes operators, such as they are when they oper­ between a motorist using his car for ate breathalysers, to create machine alcoholics, business and for pleasure.' as they were referred to by several previous "He was advocating 'a more realistic speakers. approach' to penalties now imposed on Because of human weaknesses, all the convicted drinking drivers. people involved in the administration of "He did not want a sof,tening in reason­ these proposals are not immune from error. able community attitudes towards drinking I agree that the road toll is a frightening driving as the 'serious criminal offence it feature of modern society, but alcohol can is'. only be one of the many contributing "In Victoria magistrates had to impose factors, and we should look well beyond a mandatory suspension of the driving the present legislation in our endeavour to licence on any motorist convioted of having reduce the road toll. In order to counter the exceeded .05, ranging from three months unrealistically severe provisions that might to 12 months depending on the blood eventuate out of this legislation, let us press alcohol reading. on with a much deeper study of the road "Dr. Brown said it would be fairer to problem. If the Bill is to be a basis, it give magistrates the discretionary power should be improved as soon as the impractic­ to issue a 'blue licence' which restricted ality of some of its clauses is revealed. If situations in which holders could drive. we are to be consistent, supplementary leg­ "'A Dutch police study found that islation should follow, where necessary. nearly all motorists convicted of drinking When we consider that in the last year driving committed the offence in their alone the automobile was used about off-duty hours,' he said." 20,000 million times world wide as a means of I think that might be a very reasonable personal transport, compared with the grand suggestion. total of 7,000 million for all forms of public transport, and the social habit of taking A negligent driver who has not taken alcoholic beverages is not diminishing, some sufficient alcohol to regi&ter on the mechanical far more constructive measures will have to device can be equally guilty. To take the be taken against the road toll than the neg­ other point of view to the extreme, a ative imposition of penalties so severe as to person who has had one small drink of constitute in themselves a social problem. alcohol may not be any less guilty than the person who registers .05 on a breath­ I commend the activities of the various alyser. He gets off scot-free although he may authorities which devote themselves to this be equally guilty of endangering people's study, particularly our own Road Safety live~J. Council. I commend the Minister for the 3478 Traffic Act Amendment Bill (2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill role he has played in establishing that body concerned people in this Chamber. I some­ in Queensland. I commend him and the times get very concerned and would feel members of his transport authority for the inclined to get a skinful as a result of what role they have played in conducting defensive­ goes on in various places. Many people in driving courses, etc. They have done a the Labor Party today will get a skinful wonderful job. I do not like to see their over the Prime Minister's appointing Gair reputation jeopardised in any way at all in to a post overseas. That would be enough the eyes of the public by legislation which to make any Labor man get a skinful could become nothing more than a harsh tonight. measure with very little more to show than offended public feelings. I trust that the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Minister and his advisers will devote them­ selves as diligently to further efforts to solve Mr. JENSEN: Mr. Speaker, sometimes the problem of the road toll as they have to these things cause a man to drink. He may not the framing of this legislation. be so full that he cannot drive. He may be worried and of course still be at fault People will continue to take advantage of in some way. A worried man will often the technical advances of the machine age. be at fault even though he may not have Motor-cars will become even more powerful had a drink. I agree with the honourable than they are today in spite of tacit agree­ member for Hinchinbrook that this legisla­ ment by some authorities to limit their tion is too severe in its goal sentences. potentialities. I do not sec how industry can either pull up or slow down in order to For those who have not read last Fri­ meet social problems. The very essence of day's "Telegraph" I draw attention to an employment is involved in the progress of article under the heading "Jail no Curb to industry, which, unfortunately, means more Boozers". It will never be a curb to boozers, lethal machines which man has to endeavour yet this is all that the legislation proposes. to handle. I think what is needed is more The article reads- technical knowledge and training of the man "Alcohol is a major killer on Finland's with perhaps an upgrading of driver-licensing highways and not even gaol terms ranging rather than the degradation of sending a from three to six months can deter hard­ man to gaol for having a beer, a normal drinking Finns. social habit in this country. "Alcohol, according to the latest traffic Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (10.11 p.m.): report published in Helsinki is involved The Minister has said that the road toll in 47 per cent of fatal road accidents­ has been thoroughly researched. From a 6 per cent rise in the past year (that this thorough research all he can do is is probably similar to Queensland). bend the legislation in the one direction of "And an increase has taken place in a providing more severe sentences for drink­ country that probably has the toughest driving. I have here some newspaper cut­ anti-drink-driving laws in the world. tings dealing with this matter. One, dated "Finnish authorities, in spite of gaol 19 December 1973, is headed "High Death terms for anyone found guilty of driving Rate on Straight Roads", and reads- under the influence, have been forced to "Straight roads with unimpeded views concede that they have failed to reduce claimed the largest single group of road drunks on the roads. fatalities in Queensland in the three months "A Finnish motorist takes to the high­ to June 30." way knowing that, technically, he is break­ Another one, dated 9 December 1973, was ing the law if he has the slightest trace of written by John Bragg. It is headed "Driver alcohol while he is at the wheel. Faults blamed for road toll rise" and it "There is no tradition of 'one for the reads- road' in this country where the fight " With Queensland already certain of against 'demon drink' led to prohibition setting a dismal record for road fatalities in the 1920's, and paternalistic govern­ this year, police and road safety experts ment control of liquor sales and distrib­ yesterday laid the blame squarely on ution which still lasts. drivers. "But in this atmosphere the lawmakers "A Police Department official said are now starting to consider softening the traffic police agreed that impatience was penalties for drunken driving-mainly the main single cause of road accidents because there are simply 1oo many people and Road Safety Council officials said waiting their turn to go to jail on alcohol­ every road accident was basically the vehicle offences." result of a lapse on the driver's part." Later the article refers to a man who had The amendments before us deal with only a few drinks and thought that instead of rid­ one aspect of the problem, namely, the ing his bicycle to his home, he would push driver with alcohol in his blood. All we it. He was convicted of being in charge of say about him is that he has something the bicycle while under the influence of wrong with him; he is drunk. He may have liquor. had only a few drinks. People in this A similar position obtains in Queensland, condition could be sick; they could be where a motorist who has been drinking worried or very concerned people. \Ve have and decides to lie down in the back seat of Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3479 his car can be charged w~th drunken driv­ thinks is right in the interests of his fellow­ ing. As a previous speaker has pointed out, man, but under this law he can be charged even a motorist who has been drinking and and gaoled. walks over to lock up his car can be charged I did not wish to detain honourable with drunken driving and perhaps impris­ members but these are serious matters. If oned. they are not brought to the atte~tion of the Minister and his officers we w11l never Imprisonment will certainly not curb cure the problem, especially ~h~n such drunken driving. The article that I have legislation is introdu~ed. The .M1~ster can read underlines the futility of the provision invoke serious action m appropnate mstances. relating -to drunken drivers. Drink is not We are not opposed to that. Let him put the sole cause of road accidents and fatal­ all cars off the road for one day a month, ities. It is only one of many contributing as some overseas countries did during the factors, yet the Bill regards it as the sole fuel crisis or one day a year, so that people cause. Press articles clearly indicate that may und~rstand it is a privilege to drive a the majority of road deaths occur on straight car. The Minister will achieve nothing by roads. gaoling people or fining them $800, although On previous occasions I have suggested some honourable members on this side of the that the Government impound drunken House agree with him. They believe this drivers' cars and perhaps sell them. Any is wonderful legislation, but it is the most man who earns his living by driving can rotten legislation that I have seen introduced find another occupation. However, the in this Assembly. It is high time it was Opposition believes that, in certain circum­ thrown out. stances, a man who is found drunk while Mr. HARTWIG (Callide) (10.21 p.m.): in possession of his car at night-time and The Bill is a complete rehash of legislation is, for example, a transport driver or sales­ that has been presented in this House over man, should not be penalised between the a number of years. In his second-read!ng hours of 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. If ,the offence speech the Minister instead of offenng is considered to be so serious as to warrant some ' pos1t1ve suggestions, adopted . a a term of imprisonment it would be better negative approach to the problem of dnnk­ to sell hi£ car and not allow him to drive driving, which is world wide. than to send him to gaol. If he is not sent to prison, he will still be able to work and When I spoke on the Bill at the i~tro­ support his family. If he is an alcoholic, ductory stage, I advanced a few suggestl?ns he can be rehabilitated. Some members on that I thought the Minister may h~ve capita­ the Government side would string up a lised on. I referred to the lowenng ?f the motorist who is convicted of drunken driv­ alcohol content in beverages, but he did not ing. refer to that, nor did he refer to the fact that, by research, we could introduce some means Mr. F. P. Moore: What about the people whereby people could Alco-test themselves. who drive home from a cricket match in The Minister did not outline anything posi­ Brisbane? They drive home carefully. tive. I am forced to believe that all we are Mr. JENSEN: As my colleague says, they concerned with rtoday is the gaoling of drive home carefully. people and fining them $300. I assure honourable members that I am a little fed In Bundaberg a police officer followed a up with such legislation. motorist for half a mile through the city As I said in my introductory speech, I to his home and waited until he had locked agree with the Minister's statement that we his car and was half way up his front steps cannot legislate for various parts of the before apprehending him. The police officer State· we must legislate for the whole State. then charged him with drunken driving. I That' is my reason for op.posing the. Bill. brought this matter to the attention of the I am opposed to it because 1t may detnmen­ Minister in charge of police and claimed that tally affect people in my electorate. They the police officer, not the motorist, should rely on their vehicles to attend golf or club have been charged with an offence. Fancy socials. Like the Minister, and any . other allowing him to drive half a mile through the city dweller, country people ~ust ret~n the city, over a congested traffic bridge and to his right to enjoy a few beers, If they w:s~ to home before charging him! If the police do so and the right to dnve. The M1mster officer thought that the driver was a danger to told ~e that a person wouldn't be gaoled other motorists, he should have apprehended unless he had 15 7-oz. beers. him when he first saw him. That driver could have killed another person after driv­ Mr. F. P. Moore: That's a lot of boloney. ing only 200 yards. If he thinks that a Mr. HARTWIG: It is. person is drunk, he should s,top him immediately he goes to his car rather than I assure honourable members that to get wait till he hurts or kills someone. That a reading of .08 a person does not n~d to law is as wrong as the one which says have anything like 15 7-oz. beers. I thmk I that a man who takes his car off the road described the Bill fairly well when I to sleep in i't is guilty of an offence. A per~ christened it "Four Beer Bill." son who does that is only doing what he Mr. Kaus: You are wrong. 3480 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

Mr. HARTWIG: I may be wrong, but I ... While a doctor is making his examina­ am closer to the facts than the Minister was tion, it is sens,ible to have him operate the when he told me that a person would have breathalyser. His independence provides to drink 15 7-oz. beers. a safeguard for both the citizen and the Seat belts, safety helmets and police police . . . Otherwise drivers could be patrols! What was the Minister for Works taken into police stations and no-one and Housing (Mr. Hodges) reported as would know what went on inside. The saying in 1972? I have here an article from machine could be faulty. Doctors are "The Courier Mail" of Wednesday, 27 trained to operate the machines correctly September 1972, headed, "Police will 'scout' ... Most Australians must be concerned hotels for drinkers". It reads- by the idea that a man might be convicted, not on the strength of the case against " Police will wait outside hotels, clubs, him, but because he has been in trouble restaurants, night clubs, private parties before ... The suggestion of using hearsay and other social functions in an attempt evidence-except perhaps for some for­ to catch drinking-drivers, according to a malities-was disturbing. It would mean new policy announced yesterday." that the liberty of citizens could be put in If that legislation had been enforced to the jeopardy by gossip and suspicion." letter, it would have been quite adequate. Under our existing laws which give power Government members have told me-and I of entry to members of the Police Force, it know of my own knowledge-that for his only needs one person to pimp on another first offence, under the existing legislation a after leavino- a hotel or club for the latter man may lose his licence for 15 months and to be in tr;uble. In one case, the evidence be fined up to $300. That is true. The was that a man, who was one of the Minister said that the gaol sentence was greatest police supporters I ~ave known, was mandatory. The Bill says that the court can followed four blocks by pohce, and that he determine the circumstances and increase put his car away and walked into his house, penalties if it so desires. That is the piece I where he was arrested. He was one of the do not like. If the Minister says that there most respectable citizens in my electorate. is no harm in "three months gaol" being How much more effective legislation does written into the Bill, what does he want it the Minister want than that? How much for? more justification does he want for deleting This Government has introduced legisla­ the word "gaol" from the Bill? tion to reduce the legal drinking age to 18 As I have said before, Mr. Brennan was years. We made alcohol accessible to these reported as follows:- young people, and now let them be found once and they take the risk of being sent "On amendments to the Judges' Rules, to gaol. What did we say we would let he said the basis of the criminal procedure them drink for? Wouldn't it be far better­ was the requirement that the Crown must the Minister can smile if he likes-if he prove guilt, not that the defendant must said to the Queensland Police Force, "Give prove his innocence." these young fellows a bit of warning. Show We are going to let the police use this a little courtesy instead of reading the 'Riot evidence and the defendant must prove his Act.' " I cannot condone or support a innocence. Bill that contains such machinery. The report continues- I shall now make a special comment on "The citizen's right to silence, and the lowering the alcohol content of drink. We duty of police to warn him of this right should be a little positive when introducing both flow from the principle." legislation. On 27 September 1972, Inspector I shall go a little further afield. Professor Duncan was reported as having said- Leonard Goldberg of Stockholm, a world­ " 'Screening' would be carried out . . . wide authority on alcoholism said- at accidents involving property damage ... "In point of fact, most of the continen.tal where cars have been intercepted for countries require the courts to determme traffic offences including speeding, crossing whether the man was driving when he double lines or failing to give right of way. was 'suffering from a relative incapacity The circumstances surrounding the offence to drive' the motor-car. This is a singu­ will dictate whether a breath test was larly evasive and vague standard. warranted." "Listening to continental lavvyers and On the same day, the following report judges"- appeared:- and this was in Sweden.-- "B-test doctors essential: Bar. "debating these matters, it became evi­ "Officials of the Queensland Bar Associ­ dent that much of the discussion moved ation and the Queensland Law Society from cases involving the application of yesterday supported retention of the one standard (for example, dnmk in charge present system of doctors making breath­ of a motor-car) to cases involving a alyser tests. The doctor's independence different and much more imprecise was stressed by the Bar Association Vice­ standard (for example, relative incapacity President (Mr. F. G. Brennan, Q.C.) and to drive). A good deal of the discussion Law Society President (Mr. P. T. Crouch) as ~o how the judge !Should proceed Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3481

seemed to confuse these standards. This We don't want to become a police State. is a matter which is also likely to arise What rot! Two years ago Mr. Hodges under the Australian Iaw." said-and I am pleased he is in the Chamber -"Police will scout hotels for drinkers. We A clear perception of the contrasting differ­ will wait outside." Why wasn't that done? ences in the standards involved in different Effeotive legislation is available. The Minister charges for different offences must always said that the legislation is severe and strong be kept in mind. One interesting aspect enough. But what happens? Every few the Minister did not mention is that of years there is new legislation. If the legis_la­ reflexes following the consumption of various tion is enacted, there will be a sharp declme amounts of alcohol. The idea promoted momentarily and then gradually it will be by the Bill is, "Don't go to the hotel and found that the legislation does not provide drink. Don't go to the club and drink. the answer. I have no time for the drunk­ Take a dozen beer home and get drunk driver, but there are thousands and thous­ there." However, that has its complications ands of law-abiding citizens who enjoy a also, which I hope to prove. few beers on the way home and who have I refer to what is commonly called the never had an accident in their lives. They hangover. I ask the Minister to listen to may have pulled up at a stop sign and had 1his. Investigations have revealed that somebody run into them. We haven't all got muscular dislocation following a substantial drivers waiting with ministerial cars. As a ingestion of alcohol is Hkely to persist in matter of fact, often we cannot even get a the human body long after a recording of car for ourselves. The point I make is that alcohol in the bloodstream has returned to the crack-down on drink-driving has not zero. In other words, the reflexes of a been carried out. Two years ago the Mini­ person with a hangover are not as they should ster said- be. What is the Minister going to do to "It has been proved that the Govern­ that sort of man? When he gets onto the ment is doing something about the road street the morning after a night out. his toll." judgment is still astray. He becom'es a menace. There is nothing covering thM He also said that he did not see any reason in the Bill. The Minister is putting the why the police should not be able to beer into the home-"Take your beer home operate breathalyser machines. How are and drink it. Don't drive to the pub." But we going to provide enough police to give a man with impaired judgment may be just the protection that is needed? I think that as big a menace ~o society in dense traffic something more positive must be done. A or on the open, country road with a fast better and more courteous approach to car. He may in fact be a dangerous driver. the citizen must be made, because I am sure that none of us wishes to see a "The practical effects of this disclosure police State here. may be far-reaching", said the professor. I am sorry that I can neither condone He went on, "It may well be that those driving in dangerous circumstances such as the Bill nor support it. in fast-moving traffic on main highways or Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (10.36 p.m.): The perhaps moving in dense urban areas will Bill has provided an opportunity for a fairly have to consider not merely whether they good slanging match in the House about are driving with a high blood-alcohol con­ the problems of drunks and drink-drivers. centration but whether they may not have Perhaps I could be considered something had their skills impaired by the blood-alcohol of an expert on drunks. As every member concentration, which skills appear to have of this Assembly knows, I am completely returned to normal but which in fact have temperate in my habits but, strangely enough, suffered some impairment". I enjoy a drunks' party now and again. So H is really like a bush-fire: you belt I have taken friends home in my car, it out of one paddock into the other. You doubled them home on a push-bike, or even are chasing the drinker out of the pub. carried them home on my back from such He gets "full" at home if he wants to parties. I have carried all sorts of dnmks where there is no risk of being fined, and home. I remember on one occasion swim­ he can venture out when he does not have ming through shark-infested waters round a .08 blood alcohol, and yet his driving abili~y Barrier Reef island to take a fellow back can still be impaired. to his boat after he had drunk a bit too Let us look at the matter in a sane way. much at a party. I have seen people Why don't we come up with something drunk on beer, whisky, vodka and rum; positive? Drinking is part and parcel of the I have even helped pour water over a fellow average Ausralian way of life and the motor­ who has been "on fire" after taking a car is an integral part of 1hat life. I refer drop of "White Lady". to people in my electorate who have sup­ A moment ago the honourable member ported me, not by the hundreds, but by for Callide said something about drunks. the thousands. Last week-end in Biloela Let me add a little more to what he said from every second person came to me and con­ my observations and expert knowledge gained gratulated me, saying what a wonderful stand over the years. I suggest to honourable I had 1aken in trying to preserve their image members that if they wish to become drunk, as decent, law-abiding citizens. they should drink rum; then they will not 3482 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

feel so bad when they wake up next problem so that appropriate legislation can morning. Pioneer Liqueur Rum is a pro­ be introduced. To my amazement, I was told duct of the Mackay district, as the honour­ in reply to a question to the Minister in able member for Port Curtis knows. charge of Police that persons who use these vehicles on vacant Crown land or in public Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is far too reserves do not have to be licensed. They much audible conversation in the Chamber. can constitute a great threat and danger to Mr. CASEY: The Bill contains certain many people, particularly to young children principles other than those relating to drunks who use these areas for recreation. I was and drink-driving, and the penalties to be informed that the Minister for Transport has imposed for drink-driving offences have some action in hand to cover the use of already been fairly well canvassed both in mini-bikes, trail-bikes and beach buggies in this debate and at the introductory stage. other situations. It is very important that we do something about restricting their use in I draw the Minister's attention to the the circumstances I have outlined. issuing of licences. One of the principles in the Bill is that drivers' licences will be I wish to very strongly support one argu­ issued by the Department of Transport ment that has been enunciated by the instead of by the Police Department. An Opposition. I refer to the problem of the anomaly came to my attention recently person who, as a drink-driver, has his licence that I should like the Minister to consider suspended and thereby is denied the oppor­ quickly and very closely to ensure that it tunity of carrying on with his work. is covered by the provisions contained in the Bill. Before entering this Parliament I was engaged in the construction field. This is Queenslanders who are overseas when their one field where men work hard and drink licence expires can, of course, go to Queens­ hard. It is unfortunate that statistics indicate land House in London, fill out an application that they have a high rate of penalties for form and try to get a new licence. As drink-driving. The loss of their licence not the Traffic Act now stands, particularly as only means the loss of their avenue of it relates to "P" licences, a person must be employment but in many instances it incurs issued with a new licence personally. It a severe hardship on their employer as well. ensures that only those persons who have been authorised within the State of Queens­ Many of them are expertly trained per­ land may be issued with a new licence. sonnel in the particular field in which they Consequently, any Queenslander who is over­ are driving. Many of them handle machinery seas when his licence expires has to send for road maintenance or road construction back to Queensland to try to have it work that is vital to the community. The renewed. In the case that came to my suspension of their licence means a tragic attention, a "P" licence had expired and loss to themselves and their families because the person concerned was not successful in of the loss of income as well as a loss to having it renewed. their employers and the community in The Bill provides that the Commissioner general. I realise that probably they should for Transport may delegate powers to certain be more cautious than others in their habits people, and I think it might be as well if he when they are away from their employment. delegated those powers to the Agent-General If such offences are committed by them in in London. The honourable member for the course of their employment, their Gregory might be greatly concerned about employer certainly should ensure that they this in the near future. lose their jobs. The last thing an employer would want would be a drunken driver try­ Mr. K. W. Hooper: You mentioned this ing to do final trim on a grader. He would before. ][ think it is a very good suggestion. finish up with the best corrugated bitumen Mr. CASEY: I think I brought it up by road in the State. When sober, these men do way of a question to the Minister. Perhaps a tremendous job. We must incorporate the matter could be looked at tonight just something more within the legislation. At the to make sure that the point is covered in moment, once the court suspends the licence, the delegation of powers of the Commis­ that's it! sioner for Transport. If it is not covered I have known of ca5es where employers perhaps it might be as well to have an have had men employed in specialists fields appropriate amendment moved before the driving specialist machinery and carrying debate concludes. out specialist operations. In a private Another matter of concern to me which I capacity during a week-end, an employee has raised recently is the use of mini-bikes and been caught going home from a party and other types of vehicles off the streets. I refer lost his licence. The employer has been particularly to areas such as national parks, severely handicapped by the immediate loss beaches and vacant Crown land. People go of a specialist employee and has had to to such areas at the week-end for a little rest train ·another person for the job. There­ and recreation, but they find themselves fore, I think we must build into the legis­ buzzed by noisy mini-bikes, sand buggies and lation a p.rovision to allow some discretion the like. As I understand it, an expert to magistrates and, if necessary, to judges committee has been set up to look at this on appeal. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3483

Mudh criticism has been made of the I know the measure the Minister intended leniency extended by courts under some of to bll'ing down was really tough. But pres­ these Acts but I think most magistrates sure was brought to bear on him and in would agree that in cases that come before that respect he has my sympathy. I know them circumstances are often revealed very well that the matter will have to be which, if they had the power, would war­ brought back again. I hope it will come rant the allowing of restricted use of a back in the near future and that we will licence by the offender. In many cases this then introduce strong measures to allow should be done in the interests of Vhe man's officers of the law to enforce the Act and get family and of tlhe industry in which he is these people off the road. employed. I specifically wish to stress the Reference has been made to limited industry aspect this evening because I think licences. I simply do not believe in them. it is important. Every man has a responsibiiity to his wife Other aspects have been clearly can­ and children, and if he lacks the common vassed by other honourable members and sense not to drive while he is drinking, he I do not wish to trespass on your tolerance, should suffer the consequences. Naturally I Mr. Speaker, by being repetitive. So I feel sorrow for his wife and family; however, indicate that I will support the proposal he should not be allowed to hide behind a the Opposition intends to introduce at a limited licence. If he deserves to lose his later stage to providing for some inbuilt licence, he should lose it. mechanism in the Bill to allow an employee the use of a restricted licence to enable him By all means a man should be allowed to to continue to earn his livelihood. have a few drinks; but it is up to him to keep away from the steering wheel of a car. If a shop assistant is convicted of drink­ If he attends a drinking orgy, he should driving, his employer incurs no penalty obtain the services of someone else to drive whatever. The employee can still serve him home. Drink and driving simply do not groceries, hardware, silks or whatever it mix. may be. But if the employer is a transport operator, he is penalised equally with the Blood tests should be mandatory. If a employee and I think this is most unjust. blood test shows a negative result, what is The employer has not been an offending wrong with it? There is no need whatever party and should not be handicapped in this to provide for the exercise of a discretion. way. Furthermore, we should really get tough with first offenders. I cannot see why a first Mr. DEAN (Sandgate) (10.48 p.m.): My offender should not be sentenced to imprison­ reaction to the Bill is still the same as it was ment. Many drunken drivers do not heed at the introductory stage. After liste,ning warnings that are given to them and continue very carefully to the Minister's introduction to drive while they are under the influence I felt that the Bill did not go far enough: of liquor. Some even go one step further Now that I have studied its principles, I and drive after they have been disqualified am more than ever convinced that it does from holding a licence. The Bill does not go not go far enough. We have to get really far enough in the matter of disqualification. tough wirh these people. It is no good playing around with them. We have to deal Besides being a menace on the roads, the seriously with the drinking driver and drunken driver is a terrible nuisance at adopt a very stern attitude towards his sporting grounds. For example, he goes into behaviour on the road. a football ground at the week-end carrying a carton of beer. What is the result? Quite As I said in my speech at the introduc­ often serious injury is done not only to tory stage, the drinking driver is the great­ policemen and ambulance bearers but to other est menace on the road today. Mention was spectators as well. The drinking driver is made of the drinking pedestrian but I extending his activities to sporting fields. thought this was a ridiculous comparison because the pedestrian is only a nuisance to Again I express my disappointment at the ~imself. Perhaps he may be mildly annoy­ Bill. Its penalties are far too light. mg to other people but he is not the same The Minister referred to the comments menace as a drinking driver. made by the Federal Minister, the honourable I think some people have been frightened C. K. J ones. If further remarks of that type ~Y the reference to a $1,000 fine. I hope it were made, the community would take 1s enforced. I hope the whole measure is greater notice of the menace of the drink­ e~forced when it becomes law, in contrast driver and would call for more severe w1th some of the other legislation we have penalties. I feel sure that in the long run passed. the drunken driver would get the message. In some respects I feel sorry for the There is only one way to deal with a Minister because I know that the earlier motorist who drinks-he should be hit where legislation he was to bring down some it hurts him most-in the pocket. Moreover, months ago was quite different from this. he should be deprived of his freedom. He I do not have the privilege of attending the should certainly not be allowed to languish meetings of the Governme:..nt parties but, in prison on week-end detention. Instead of from information I received some time ago, being admitted to prison on Friday afternoon 3484 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill and allowed to play cards until his release not drive should be placed not only on the on Sunday night, he should be put to some hotelkeepers but also on anyone who is useful work so that the community can around at the time. Many honourable recoup some of the cost of having him members who saw such a person getting into detained in prison. a car would try to stop him from driving it. I feel sure that the time will come when We must teach our children at home and at we will have to consider going further than school to be fully aware of the effects of we are going in this measure. The penalties alcohol. could be far heavier than they are, and the I live in an area in which there have been legislation could be given teeth so that it more fatal accidents than there have been can be enforced strictly. in any other part of Queensland. I refer to the road section from the Plainland-Laidley I am sick and tired of drink-drivers being turn-off to the Agricultural College at Lawes. protected, and I am sick and 1ired of all the This section is know as the "murder mile". I excuses and platitudes used in relation to do not suggest that all the fatal accidents on them. There is seldom a reference to the that section have been caused by alcohol unfortunate persons who are maimed for but I do say that many of them were attribut­ life or lose their lives through the actions able to alcohol. This is a straight stretch of of drink drivers. It would do some hon­ road which encourages speeding. I have seen ourable members good if they visited the many of these fatal accidents. While I shall morgue at the rear of Parliament House to not mention any particular case, I will say it see the tangible results of the drink-drivers' is sickening to carry young children from activities. a motor accident. I have also seen people At the introductory stage we were told incinerated in accidents on that section of that 600 deaths occurred in Queensland in road. one year. We made a hue and cry about I believe that the Minister is sincere in his the death roll of the Vietnamese War, in attempt to reduce the number of road fatal­ which about 130 Australians lost their lives ities and it is up to the people to co-operate. -of course, those deaths should not have I have nothing against police operating occurred-yet with 600 deaths on our high­ breathalysers in certain circumstances. I ways, many of them attributable to drink­ would rather have doctors perform this task, drivers, it seems that we have our priorities but I think special police could do it quite wrong. We should realise that the drink­ well. driver is the worst menace in society today. He has been given too much protection. I The debate tonight has verified the divided hope that when the Bill becomes law, its pro­ opinion in this Chamber on these very visions will be fully implemented. important issues. The honourable member for Sandgate spoke against the Bill. No M.r. GUNN {Somerset) {10.56 p.m.): I did doubt he has firm convictions. Good for not enter the introductory debate, but I him. On the other hand, some Opposition registered a vote against this measure in the members favoured the Bill. My remarks joint party meeting. I should like to make apply equally to Government members. my position clear. At the outset I emphasise The drink-driving problem exists all over that I have no sympathy for the driver who the world. In my opinion, the faster cars has several convictions for drink-driving. produced today, in the hands of young However, I am concerned about a young man people, are one of the primary c!luses of. road who, through no fault of his own, is enticed accidents. Some of the mechanrcally mmded into having a drink at an office party and members of this Assembly will bear me out then very unwisely decides to drive his car. when I say that the braking system in some It may be said that he is not likely to be sent of the newer cars is not efficient enough. to gaol for his first offence, but, after exam­ Recently I read in a Sunday newspaper that ining decisions handed down by magistrates, I a very popular make of car had power disc do not think anyone could be blamed for brakes all round. If the brakes are applied being sceptical. I remember a magistrate suddenly at a speed of 70 miles an hour the of note who, many years ago, had a down car is apt to skid. The motoring editor of on alcohol. He would not hesitate to imple­ this newspaper said that the driver would ment this legislation to the limit. have to be very capable to stop the car However, on one occasion, when a young from rolling over. This is a very serious lad in my district slashed the tyres on half problem. It is particularly serious when this a dozen motor vehicles, the same magistrate fault exists in one of the popular makes of let him off with a bond. I am worried about car. It probably exists in others. I could be how the provisions in the Bill may be criticised for saying that the best braking implemented. system is disc brakes at the front and Hotelkeepers can do quite a lot to help conventional brakes at the rear. young fellows who drink for the first time. An honourable member referred to road And no doubt many hotelkeepers do help construction in various areas. It was said them. However, unscrupulous hotelkeepers that country roads are notorious for allow young men to drink and drive their accidents. cars. In such cases the onus of ensuring that a young man in such circumstances does Mr. Hanson: What rot. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3485

Mr. GUNN: The honourable member may altogether. He should not have a licence. I say that; proportionately, as many accidents would put him in the chronic alcoholic happen in the country as in the city. They category. This is becoming quite a problem. may even be higher. I do not think this results from road construction. In a country Mr. Bums: Wouldn't you try to do some­ area, drivers are not as tense as in a city thing about his alcoholic problem? area. There is not the same stream of traffic. Therefore they are probably apt to speed. Mr. GUNN: If the honourable member Terrific improvement has been achieved in for Lytton had been listening, he would road construction. This has resulted in more know that I have advocated education in the speed. I think it was the honourable mem­ home, the school and other places. ber for Stafford who referred to the type of bitumen road laid today. The best bitumen Alcohol has a different effect on different road I have seen was constructed with coarse people. It has peculiar properties. I have material. For instance, the Warrego High­ seen people who could consume a dozen way, near the Dinmore area-- beers or whiskies and yet be as sober as Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I am afraid that judges. On the other hand, I have seen the honourable member is getting away from people who have been pretty tiddly after the principles of the Bill. just a few beers. Mr. GUNN: I will get back onto them. Action has to be taken in this field. The Minister is trying to achieve something. He Mr. SPEAKER: I hope the honourable realises he has a major problem on his member does. hands. Although I support the Bill, I wish to make it clear that I disagree with the Mr. GUNN: One of the great problems in most areas is that members of the Queens­ provision relating to first offenders. land Police Force cannot police every hotel and road in Queensland. In most cases an Mr. AHERN (Landsborough) (11.8 p.m.): accident has to occur before we discover move- offenders. No doubt many people drive "That the question be now put." home from hotels with a level of .08 and never have an accident. In fact, most people Mr. F. P. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I rise leaving hotels would have a level of .08, to a point of order. but they will never be picked up until they are involved in an accident. It could be a Mr. SPEAKER: State your point of order. fatal accident, too, which would make it difficult for the police. My only objection to Mr. F. P. MOORE: Being a listed speak.er the Bill is the penalty it prescribes for the on this Bill, I take objection-- first offender, which I consider to be unduly harsh. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is no valid Mr. K. J. Hooper: Will you vote against point of order; it? Mr. F. P. MOORE: I beat the honourable Mr. GUNN: I will support the majority member for Landsborough. You didn't look decision of my Government on every my way. occasion, just as the honourable member for Archerfield would support his party. I do Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable not remember his crossing the floor on many member will resume his seat. occasions, if any. Mr. F. P. MOORE: I will not resume my Mr. Ali:son: He would lose his endorse­ seat. ment. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The honourable Mr. GUNN: That may be so. I have member will resume his seat. For the benefit stated my specific obj.ection to the Bill. of the honourable member, I point out that Mr. F. P. Moore: Why don't you follow if an honourable member moves that the your convictions and vote against it? question be put, that is the end of the matter.

I\!Ir. GUNN: I voted against it in the party Mr. F. P. MOORE: You didn't hear me. room. On many occasions Opposition mem­ I beat him to the-- bers who have spoken against a measure have voted with the party. I think as members Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I am telling the of a party we should follow the majority honourable member for his information-he decision. would be well advised to study the Standing I have no sympathy whatever for a driver Orders a little more closely-that, even if who has been repeatedly convicted of drink­ he were speaking, any other member could driving. After a driver has committed a move that the question be put. That would couple of offences, he should lose his licence be the end of the matter. 111 3486 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

Question-That the question be now put­ reasons we believe that it should be amen­ put; and the House divided- ded. We have not proposed any action in AYES, 39 regard to the other penalties. We have Ahern Low clearly indicated tonight that when a person A lis on McKechnie commits a second or third offence, after Bje!ke-Petersen Miller being given an opportunity when he com­ Camm Moore, R. E. Camp bell Muller mitted the first offence, he should have to Chinchen Murray face up to his responsibilities if he has not Cory Neal overcome his particular problem. Crawford Newbery Edwards Porter Accordingly, I move the following Fletcher Rae amendment:- Gunn Row Hartwig Small "On page 6, line 50, omit the expres­ Hewitt, N. T. E. Sul!ivan sion- Hewitt, W. D. Tomkins Hodges Tooth '$400' Hooper, K. W. Wharton Houghton and insert in lieu thereof the expression­ Knox Tellers: '$200'." Lane Lee Frawley Lickiss Kaus Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (11.18 p.m.): I join with the honourable member for Bel­ NoEs, 27 mont in opposing the clause. It is unfair to Baldwin Lee se use monetary fines against the average work­ Blake Margin son Bousen Moore, F. P. ing man. If one man is earning $1,000 a Brom!ey Newton week and another man is earning $100 a Burns O'Donnell week and on each the court imposes a fine Casey Wallis-Smith Davis Wood, P. of $400, $500, or even $1,000, the man on Dean Wright $100, a week is affected far more adversely Hanlon Yewdale than the man on $1,000 a week. The Hanson Harris Government is being unfair in this regard. Hooper, K. J. A week or so ago I attended a sittings of Houston Tellers: Inch the court and Vtatched what happened to the Jones, N. F. Jensen average working man. Each and every person Jordan Harvey convicted asked for time to pay. I do not think that the imposition of the prescribed PAIRS: Herbert Tucker fine is much of a penalty on, say, the manager Armstrong Aiken of General Motors-Holden or of some other Bird Melloy firm who is earning $12,000, $15,000 or Hughes Wood, B. Scott-Young Jones, R. $20,000 a year-the payment of $200 or Chalk D'Arcy $400 means nothing much to him-but a $400 Resolved in the affirmative. penalty on a working man is a harsh one. Why shouldn't we provide for a fine of a Motion (Mr. Hooper) agreed to. certain number of weeks' wages? Why COMMITTEE shouldn't we say "Four weeks' wages"? A per­ son who is earning $200 a week would lose (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Lickiss, two weeks of his earnings for the year and Mt. Coot-tha, in the chair) a man on $80 per week would lose five Clauses 1 to 7, both inclusive, as read, weeks' pay. Why should we impose a more agreed to. severe hardship on the battler? He and his Clause 8-Repeal of and new s. 16; Driv­ wife and kids at home are hurt the most. ing, etc., whilst under influence of liquor or We have all had experience with problems drugs or with prescribed concentration of of that sort. alcohol in blood- Some discretion should be allowed in these clauses. As the honourable member Mr. NEWTON: (Belmont) (11.15 p.m.): for Belmont said, we are not going to This is the first of the two clauses dealing concern ourselves with all the persons who with the two types of offences under the are mentioned in the clauses that refer to amending legislation, and it applies the the period of five years. But I would like heavier penalties. At the second-reading to make the point that in the first stage I indicated at some length the Opposi­ two pages of the clause the failure tion's reasons for moving an amendment to of this fining system is admitted; it the clause. is admitted very clearly in clause 8. It is The clause relates to the first offence admitted on page 5, line 18 in the words. under the existing legislation. The monetary "If within the period of five years.". It is penalty is being increased; a term of impris­ repeated in line 26 and again in line 35. onment is being included, and the justice Line 46 mentions previous convictions-and deciding the issue is being given the power one could go on and on. It occurs again to impose a fine or term of imprisonment or in line 20 on page 6 and again in line 30. both. The clause relates to a person's first All of those expressions are admissions offence of having a blood-alcohol content that the system of imposing heavy fines is between .08 and .15 per cent. For those not solving the problem. The Governmenfs Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3487 approach is not realistic. The problem will To return to the section and the fine we not be solved by imposing heavy fines. The are discussing-the accident I witnessed system works to the detriment of the battler tonight is an example of what can happen -the man at the bottom-while the man to people who are quite capable of driving a with a few dollars in kitty can pay his fine motor-car. No damage was done to the and forget about it. We have to find a vehicle but the person it struck was lying more reasonable and equitable way of hand­ prostrate on the ground and not moving. ling the problem, without any element of Please God that the woman, or the man discrimination in effect. as the honourable member for Windsor said it was, will be all right. But who will judge Mr. F. P. MOORE (Mourilyan) (11.21 whether the motorist or the pedestrian was p.m.): I support the acting shadow Minister careless? on this clause and the fine under discussion. Not only in this section but in other earlier Mr. Alison: Not you. sections the verbiage will no doubt give Mr. F. P. MOORE: How many honourable lawyers a field day in the enforcement of members, including the honourable member the legislation. for Maryborough, have walked across that Mr. A!ison interjected. intersection against the red light? Many vehicles come down George Street and turn Mr. F. P. MOORE: I intended earlier to right into Alice Street before the green arrow quote sections 374, 375, 376 and 377 of the shows. Who will be found to be at fault Criminal Code when the Minister made if a sober motorist turns right before he is scathing attacks on the integrity of honour­ entitled to and on stopping suddenly to able members opposite. As members of this avoid hitting a pedestrian, is hit from behind Assembly, they have every right to express by a following motorist who has a blood­ their views without being condemned for it. alcohol level of .08 per cent? If both drivers Apparently they have somersaulted after are subjected to a breathalyser test, which being chast,ised outside of this Chamber and one of them will be charged with an are not now willing to have the courage of offence? their convictions and vote against the Bill. I cannot understand what the honourable The Minister has made a scathing attack member for Maryborough is saying although on my integrity as well as on that of other I can hear his voice. I know that he is honourable members. Unlike him, I do not supposed to be an accountant. talk with my tongue in my cheek. If Government members have any intestinal fortitude, they will support the Opposition's The CHAIRMAN: Order! I trust that the honourable member will deal with clause 8. amendment. Mr. F. P. MOORE: I am dealing with Mr. MILLER (Ithaca) (11.26 p.m.): At first clause 8 and the amendment moved by the sight, the Opposition's amendment seems to acting shadow Minister. If honourable warrant a sympathetic response from the members opposite interject, then I will reply. Government. The point made by the honour­ able member for Lytton is a very good one, I must also comment on the language It is a pity that fines cannot be deducted used by the Minister today relative to a from weekly wages. very good friend of mine, the honourable member for Port Curtis. He accused the Queensland is the only State that has honourable member of having his tongue endeavoured by way of an education pro­ in cheek. All through his introduction of gramme to overcome the drink-driving the Bill today the Minister had a lolly in problem. Up to this point of time a driver his mouth and he had a great deal of who had a blood-alcohol level of between .08 trouble with both the lolly and his tongue. and .1 has not been fined. In fact, inst~ad of being subjected to a penalty he was With regard to this particular offence of merely told to find someone else to take driving whilst under the influence of liquor him home, and he was ordered off the road or drugs or with a prescribed concentration for 24 hours. Unfortunately, this system of alcohol in the blood-tonight I was stand­ has not worked. ing on the veranda outside this Chamber and I saw an accident occur. I do not The previous Minister in charge of road know what the outcome was, but what safety was very keen indeed to educate the appeared to be a girl was knocked down drink-driver as to the dangers associated by a Volkswagen car. with drinking and driving. We thought it better to educate them than to hit them Mr. R. K Moore: It was a man. through their pockets. However, despite this education programme Queensland now has Mr. F. P. MOORE: The honourable one of the highest road tolls in Australia. member for Windsor apparently knows that The Opposition's suggestion that the fines it was a man. These days it is very difficult should be reduced is ludicrous. We have to tell whether a person is a man or a tried to educate drink-drivers without woman. Of course, it is easy to recognise imposing any fines. what the honourable member for Windsor is. Mr. Burns: The fines didn't work, either. 3488 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

Mr. MILLER: I am talking about motorists Daimler, a Bentley, a big Ford or Dodge with a blood-alcohol level of between .08 does not seem to get picked up. I do not and .15, who were not fined. The system like to think that under this legislation the did not work. I fully support the submissions poor old battler who drives an old model put forward by the Minister, and oppose is the person who will be picked up. No-one this amendment. can tell me that there is no discrimination Mr. BALDWIN (Redlands) (11.30 p.m.): in this. '!'here must be. The Minister should I rise in protest against one aspect of this be well aware that the practice of imposing clause, which I view as nothing more than exorbitant fines and gaol terms as a deterrent a straight-out incursion into two basic will not work and that it is basically immoral elements of British justice. The whole basis in that one human being is being used for of this legislation is human action and human an object lesson to bring about a desirable error. I refer firstly to the element of result in others. We are penalising one retrospectivity. I fail to see how any Govern­ person to prevent somebody else doing some­ ment can justify any element of thing. In my book it is immoral and should retrospectivity in legislation of this nature. not come about. The whole clause should have been rewritten to fix defined levels. The introduction of Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (11.35 p.m.): The retrospectivity is contrary to the British honourable member for Redlands raised the tradition of justice in that it has the effect question of retrospectivity of this clause. of punishing a man twice for the Some people have been on remand since same offence. before Christmas. How will they be affected As every honourable member knows, if by the increased penalties? As the honour­ a police officer believes that a driver able member for Ithaca said, no penalty has involved in a motor vehicle accident has been imposed to date for a level of .08. taken any amount of alcohol whatsoever, People above that level were subject to he is entitled to give him an Alco-test or a smaller penalties than are being prescribed breathalyser test at the police station. On by the Bill. I think that $400 was the penalty the evidence of people who have reported for a level higher than .1. How will the new these matters to me-and I have no reason provision affect a person who has been on to disbelieve them-if a person registers remand since before Christmas because he .08, that fact is recorded against him, and decided to contest the charge? If he is he is even liable to special surveillance. If convicted, will he have to pay the higher fine any offence relative to the taking of alcohol simply because, unlike others, he did not by a person involved in a traffic accident decide to cop it sweet and pay the fine? can be made retrospective, iHespective of whether the accident was caused by the The honourable member for Ithaca took driver who had taken drink, there is nothing my point about the working fellow. He to prevent the Government by way of regu­ said it was not a bad point but that we lation, from introducing it at .8, whether could not do much about it. he was involved in an accident or not. Mr. R. E. Moore: You mean .08? Mr. Miller: I did not say that. Mr. BALDWIN: That is so. With a read­ Mr. BURNS: The honourable member ing of .8, he would be floating like some thought it was a good point and did not say Government members. much more than that. He and I can argue that matter lateL At the moment I have to It is conceivable that, later on, he could speak to the Minister through the Chair or be picked up in line with the principle in I will be sat down. this clause of the Bill which provides for retrospectivity and double penalty for an A person may be fined $400 and/ or infringement of the Act if a person has imprisoned for a term not exceeding three already been found guilty. months. When I visited the court recently, I voice my disapproval of this provision I found that magistrates have decided and I am surprised that Government mem­ that .08, .1 or .12 should attract a fine of bers have not done so. They speak of the1r $250 and/ or six months' imprisonment, with adherence to the principles of justice, yet disqualification of licence for 12 months. when this principle is introduced they sit For a higher reading, the fine would be $300 silent. I am completely amazed. and/ or nine months' imprisonment. This system is also prescribed in the proposed sec­ Mr. R. E. MOORE (Windsor) (11.33 tion 8 (1), which refers to $800 or nine p.m.): In speaking to this clause we are months. In the proposed subsection (2) ref­ dealing with someone who has seven beers erence is made to a fine of $400 or imprison­ in one hour, eight beers in two hours or ment for three months. nine beers in three hours-that is, three beers an hour. When I look at the various The point I am making is that the object convictions that have been recorded, I am of the legislation should not be to send somewhat grieved to note

executives, teachers and the like. Then we correct. The person who is arrested for noted a big change. These types faded out drunken driving is usually not the one who of the scene, with the present-day odd sets out to get drunk. exception. From then until the present, most persons arrested are in the wage Mr. Wright: They come from golf clubs earning group. and cricket clubs. "The crushing fines being imposed in Mr. DAVIS: Yes, clubs in particular. accordance with the law are punishments in the main on wives and children, who In his second-reading speech, the Minister really bear the brunt of shortages of food, referred to a medical research bureau. Such clothing and the like. In some cases, the an organisation might show us the way to husband and father may ultimately go to assist offenders instead of merely saying, prison to enjoy being dairy fed, to sleep in ''You have offended against society. You a pastel coloured self-contained room and will be punished.", and leaving it at that. to have the opportunity of learning to play bowls." Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ Minister for Transport) (11.48 p.m.): I do I may not quite agree with that; but what I not doubt the sincerity of the Opposition said at the introductory stage agrees with in moving the amendment. However, I the thoughts of a lot of people interested in should like to know where we are going. penalty reforms-that there should not be The penalty is $200 at present. Leaving mandatory fines. Mr. Dillon said that the it at that figure would be a retrograde step. quantum of punishment should be left in Because the aim of the Bill is to provide the hands of the professionals who deal with more stringent measures against drink-driv­ cases by the thousands each year. Instead of ing, I cannot accept the amendment. fines and threats of punishment, a new clause should be substituted departing from I refer the honourable member for Lytton imprisonment and so forth. If there is a to page 38 of the Bill, where he will find deterrent, the onus must be on society to the answer to his question. The last para­ show the person concerned that he has sinned graph on that page says- against society. Instead of being fined "On :the commencement of this Aot, heavily, drivers should be sentenced to week­ every proceeding initiated, pending or part end detention-not in prison, but doing heard under ,the Principal Act shall be social work in the community. heard or continue according to the pro­ Government Members interjected. visions of the Principal Act which shall for that purpose be deemed to continue in Mr. DAVIS: Enlightened societies such force as :though this Act had not as Sweden and the Uni.ted Kingdom agree commenced." on that. No good comes of putting a As the honourable member for Ithaca said, person into Boggo Road or Stuart prison the court will have a discretion in the for an offence of this type. He must be penalty it imposes up to $400. In fact, made to assist society while he is reforming. it may not impose any penalty. Mr. Hinze interjected. As the Government's intention is to intro­ Mr. DAVIS: If that is the way the mem­ duce stringent measures, I again state that ber for South Coast, who is a member of f cannot accept the amendment. I move­ the all-party committee on crime and punish­ "That the question be now put." ment, behaves-- Motion (Mr. Hooper) agreed to. Mr. Hinze: Oh, shut up! You're as silly Question-That the exp11ession proposed as you can get. to be omiHed from clause 8 (Mr. Newton's The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honour­ amendment) stand part of the clause-put; able member for South Coast. and the Committee divided- AYES, 38 Mr. DAVIS: If that is the way the hon­ Ab ern Lee ourable member for South Coast is going Alison Low to behave, some of his comments when Bjelke-Petersen McKechnie the all-party committee meets will be Cam m Miller Camp bell Moore, R. E. beauties. Chinch en Muller Crawtord Murray In my opinion, I have outlined the only Edwards Neal satisfactory way of attacking the problem. Fletcher Newberv It mmt be remembered tha:t many people Frawley Rae · Gunn Row arrested for drunken driving have not been Hewitt, N. T. E. Small to hotels but to lodge meetings, parties and Hewitt, W. D. Sullivan so on. Hinze Tmnkins Hodges Tooth Mr. Hinze: The Hibemian Lodge. Hooper, K. W. Wharton Houghton Kaus Tellers: Mr. DAVIS: Never mind about that. Knox Cory Statistics prove that what I am saying is Lane Porter Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3491

NoEs, 26 Police Force-which has the difficult job Baldwin Jones, N. F. of apprehending offenders and enforcing the B!ake Jordan Bousen Lee se provisions of the Act--or by motorists who Bromley Margimon are convicted. Furthermore, no honourable Burns Moore, F. P. member has brought forward any such com­ Davis Newton Dean O'Donnell plaint that has been made to him, so why Hanlon Wallis..Smith upset the present good relations between the Hanson Wood,P. Police Force and the public? Harvey Wright Hooper, K. J. Mr. Hinze: Do you believe in random Houston Tellers: tests? Inch Harris Jensen Yewdale Mr. NEWTON: No, I do not. I have PAIRS: made it quite clear that the Opposition does Herbert Tucker Armstrong Aiken not favour them. However, as I also pointed Bird Melloy out, they are conducted at present under the Hughes Wood, B. provisions of the Act. Scott-Young Jones, R. Chalk D'Arcy On behalf of the Opposition I move the Resolved in the affirmative. following amendment- Clause 8, as read, agreed to. "On page 10, omit all words in lines 49 to 52 inclusive." Clause 9-Repeal of and new s.l6A; Provisions with respect to breath tests and laboratory tests- [Wednesday, 3 April 1974] Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.57 p.m.): Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ In the circumstances of happenings tonight Minister for Transport) (12.2 a.m.): The it is unfortunate that we are left in the honourable member for Belmont asked why position of not having received answers to this provision is in the Bill. In reply, I a number of important questions raised in point out that of 37 doctors who conducted the second-reading debate, one of which breathalyser tests on behalf of the Police referred to Vhis clause. Force, only three indicated in a questionr:aire It is ,not my intention to delay the Com­ sent to them that they desired to contmue mittee, but if fhe Opposition is to be treated conducting them. In Mt. Isa alone we could in this way on matters which to us are very not obtain one doctor to carry them out, important, we might be sitting here for and similar difficulty has been experienced much longer tonight in order to fight the in other areas. The simple fact is that Bill to the finish. doctors are far too busy in their professional What ,happened tonight is a shocking state practice. of affairs. The Minister made a second­ One of the most important aspects of reading speech on the issues ,and made this provision is that the time involved will some severe attacks, as he is entitled to do. be at least halved by the use of senior, The Government could have saved itself a highly trained police officers for conducting lot of time by allowing the debate to go the these tests. As well there will be a large distance because there were not many more s:lVing in money. speakers on the list. The Opposition might I said at the introductory stage, and I then have received answers to some of the repeat tonight, at the present time a police queries we raised. We are treating this officer must be present when a doctor uses matter with aH the seriousness it deserves a breath-analysing instrument. He must and we have no intention of giving the supervise the operation. Government a blank cheque in the matter. Mr. Miner: You are opposed to the When this provision was first embodied police taking breathalyser tests. in the Act, I, like Opposition members, felt rather strongly that only doctors should Mr. NEWTON: We are not opposed to operate the instrument. However, 1t has rhat at all but we have not been given any been proved that police officers can b~ more reason why it is to be done. To my know­ highly trained in its use .. I also pomt out ledge, not one police officer has said that that no apprehending police officer w1ll be the police want to do this job. The Govern­ allowed to use the instrument. ment must have some reasons for wanting the change. We asked for those reasons but Mr. W. D. Hewitt: That is a very received no reply. If the Gov,ernment wants important proviso. to change the system of operation of breath­ Mr. K. W. HOOPER: It is being written alysers in this State, we should be told into the legislation, and I assure the Com­ something about who will be operating mittee that it will be followed to the letter. them. As I indicated previously, we have I could well imagine the misgivings of some not received one complaint from anybody honourable members if apprehending police about any injustice being done under the officers were allowed to operate the instru­ present method of breathalyser operation ments. However, we must keep police in the State. This r;eflects to the credit of officers in the clear, and that is why this the Act and its implementation. No com­ provision is divided into two sections. As I plaint> have been lodged either by the say, if the apprehending officer is present, 3492 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill he will not be allowed to use the instrument. the Police Force. That statement will be That is why I cannot accept the amendment. laughed to scorn when it is made known We introduced this principle to save time. to the people. They will recognise it as These people are competent to do the job. absolutely blatant hypocrisy. In the first And they will be competent. place, the Minister cannot give such an undertaking because, firstly, I doubt whether The honourable member for Belmont said he has the confidence of the police and, that he did not know of any other place secondly it is a wide, universal type of where medical officers carried out this type undertaking that is lacking in credence and of work. He said that in some places social foundation. workers and chemists were employed. I agree with him, but, to the best of my May I go further and mention the knowledge, Queensland is the only place in Minister's statement that doctors do not want the world where medical officers are required to perform this duty. Young doctors who to carry out the entire operation relative to go into a community fm the first time bend the breathalyser instrument. I make it quite over backwards to perform duties as a clear that while the police will be operating Government medical officer because they are the instrument, so will medical officers. We anxi'Ous to improve their practices. It is have introduced this provision to ease the only after they have been there fm a couple situation. of years, have waxed fat on the populace and have acquired a considerable annual Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (12.6 a.m.): income that they decide to shed a consider­ In his introductory speech, the Minister said able amount of work such as that performed that the Government had been concerned by a Government medical officer. In addition, for some time that the use of medical practi­ they stop treating a considerable number of tioners in this area placed considerable strain their patients, particularly hypochondriacs. on our medical resources which could, and This is not a telling point that the Minister should, be used in aiding the sick and has put forward; nor is it a very good injured. In my introductory speech I accused defence of his argument. the Government of blatant hypocrisy. I do not retreat from that observation. My allega­ According to the 1973 annual report of tion related to the increase by this Govern­ the Queensland Police Department, over ment in the number of retail liquor outlets 4,000 breathalyser tests were conducted. If year by year, with monotonous regular,ity, this duty is handed over to the Police Force, and the consequent increase in the drink­ it will place a considerable strain upon police driving problem. officers. If we mention in correspondence to the appropriate Minister that he should It is very hypocritical of the Minister to afford some relief to the personnel at any say that he is greatly concerned about medical police station, we hear the great cry about practitioners when he is part and parcel of an police officers not being ove11worked. lf administration that denies the young people further imposts are to be put on them, that of Queensland the right to qualify as medical argument will not hold water. practitioners. A very stringent quota system applies to students who desire to become In a statement he made a little while ago, doctors. Since the Labor Party introduced the Minister came clean. My colleague the the full-time faculty of medicine at the honourable member for Toowoomba North University of Queensland in 1935-1936, there asked a question of the Minister for Works has been no significant increase in the and Housing on 30 August 1972, and he was number of students who can be accom­ informed rhat the total amount paid to modated in the medical school. That is not medical practitioners during the year ended in keeping with modern trends. Govern­ 30 June 1972 was $77,433. Of that amount, ment members talk with crocodile tears in $66,240 was paid for the operation of their eyes about over-worked doctors while breathalysers. they deny hundreds of young people a right to qualify as doctors to serve the people of Mr. K. W. Hooper: Don't you want to Queensland. So much for the Government's save that amount? hypocrisy! Mr. HANSON: In reply to the Minister, Mr. Hinze interjected. that is the whole crux of the matter. Unfortunately, many people will face drink­ Mr. HANSON: If the honourable member driving charges because of cut-price grog remains silent for a moment I will answer and the Government's desire to get cut-price him. convictions by taking the operation of these When dealing with this clause the Minister machines out of the hands of medical prac­ said that he has the guarantee of his col­ titioners and placing it in the hands of police league the Minister for Works and Housing officers. This trust should not be placed in that he will ensure that the specially trained the Police Force. I do not believe that the police officers will not abuse their respon­ Police Force desires it, particularly in sibility. The Minister for Works and Housing country towns where public relations are an cannot give such an undertaking. We have essential part of a policeman's work. This only to approach the Police Union representa­ will place too much burden and anxiety on tive to find how popular the Minister is with him and his family. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3493

To be positive and to advance something of what goes on under the auspices of the that will correct the anomalous situation, I Traffic Act and under the auspices of the refer to the defensive-driving courses, for Transport Department. I move- which I have high regard. The Police Force "That the question be now put." plays a very prominent and laudable part in this exercise. Instead of making policemen Question put; and the Committee divided­ take over this work from medical prac­ titioners, why not let them extend the AYES, 38 Ahern Lee defensive-driving courses so that young Alison Low people, before applying for their first driver's Bjelke-Peter!en McKechnie licence, could be compulsorily put through Camm Miller Campbell !Vfoore, R. E. a defensive-driving course? In that way, Chinchen Murray many of the problems would be obviated. Cory Neal Crawford Newbery The education system is the right avenue to Edwards Porter teach people the ordinary fundamentals. An Fletcher Rae Frawley Row educated society should see that a start is Gunn Small made at the root of the problem by a.Jlowing Hewitt, N. T. E. Sullivan Hewitt, W. D. Tomkins members of our Police Force to energise and Hinze Tooth activate themselves as instructors in defensive­ Hodges Wharton Hooper, K. W. driving courses rather than as narks­ Houghton Tellers: unfortunately, Government-appointed narks­ Kaus Lane who will be operating breathalyser machines. Knox Muller

I say quite frankly that very few members NOES, 26 of the public will believe that they are receiv­ Baldwin Jordan ing fair treatment. Whilst I have great Blake Lee se respect for the police and there are many Bousen Marginson hundreds like me (I am well and favourably Bromley Moore,F. P. Burns Newton known to the police, which I do not suppose Davis O'Donnell is a great burden), unfortunately thousands Dean Wallis-Smith of people will be aggrieved by police opera­ Hanlon Wood, P. Hanson Wright tions under this clause. No doubt other Harris Yewdale Opposition members will speak on this clause. Harvey Tellers: I have given my main objections. Houston Inch Hooper, K. J. The matter has been considered by the Jensen Jones, N. F. Government from the point of view of saving money. Since the present Government PAIRs: assumed office it has closed police stations Herbert Tucker Armstrong Aiken and performed every type of chicanery to Bird Melloy try to take earnings from policemen, yet at Hughes Wood, B. the same time it is imposing on them the Scott-Young J'ones, R. D'Arcy operation of these machines to save, as I said, Chalk a lousy $66,000 a year. Resolved in the affirmative.

Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ Question-That the words proposed to be Minister for Transport) (12.17 a.m.): I am omitted from clause 9 (Mr. Newton's amazed at the attitude of the honourable. amendment) stand part of the clause-put; member for Port Curtis. I have already told and the Comittee divided- the Committee that police are present when the doctors are operating the breath-analysing AYES, 38 instrument. There will not be any difference under this provision. The machine will not Ahern Low Alisou McKechnie be operated by inexperienced people, so I Bjelke-Petersen Miller do not know what the honourable member's Camm Moore, R. E. argument on that point is. Camp bell Murray Chinchen Neal Cory Newbery The main tenor of his speech was an attack Crawford Porter on the integrity of my colleague the Minister Edwards Rae for Works and Housing, and I take exception Fletchex Row Frawley Small on behalf of my colleague. The honourable Gunn Sullivan member is so far off the beam about Hewitt, N. T. E. Tomkins defensive-driving courses that it does not Hewitt, W. D. Tooth Hinze Wharton matter. He said that police were running Hodges those courses. I would like to see where! Hooper, K. W. That task is performed by the Queensland Houghton Tellers: Kaus Road Safety Council through its field officers. Knox Lane Obviously, the honourable member is ignorant Lee Muller 3494 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

NoEs, 26 As our move has been defeated ·by num­ bers the ball is back in the Government's Baldwin Leese Blake Margin son corner. Bousen Moore, F. P. Bromley Newton I will not be pursuing the further amend­ Burns O'Donnell ments relating to the breathalyser but I will Davis Wallis-Smith Dean Wood, P. be pursuing other amendments foreshadowed. Hanlon Wright Hanson Yewdale Harris Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (12.32 a.m.): We Harvey have just heard from the honourable member Houston Tellers: for Belmont a subtle tirade of abuse directed Inch Jensen Hooper, K. J. against members of the Queensland Police Jordan Jones, N. F. Force. Mr. Newton interjected. PAIRS The CHAIRMAN: Order! The words used Herbert Tucker Armstrong Aiken by the honourable member for Belmont are Bird Melloy unparliamentary and I ask him to withdraw Hughes Wood, B. Scott-Young Jones, R. them. D'Arcy Chalk Mr. Newton: I withdraw them, Mr. Resolved in the affirmative. Lickiss, under protest.

Mr. NEWTON .(Belmont) (12.29 a.m.): The CHAIRMAN: Order! You will with­ Mr. Lickiss, what the Opposition endeavoured draw them without qualification. to do by amendment of this clause was to Mr. Newton: I do so. confine the operation of the breathalyser to an independent person. Mr. LANE: We have heard an attempt to criticise the police in perhaps a subtle Mr. Lane: What have you got against the way. We know that the honourable member police'? for Belmont has the burden of trying to keep sweet with the police because that is Mr. NEWTON: I would expect that from his alleged shadow portfolio in this place. the honourable member. I have nothing The attitude of the Opposition in moving against them at all. If the honourable these amendments also illustrates its Queen member keeps on interjecting he will be here Street mentality. a lot longer yet. I am in a good mood for Mr. K. J. Hooper: How many seats does it at the moment. your party hold outside the metropolitan From the research that it was possible for area? me to do in the short time I had to prepare material for the second-reading debate, I Mr. LANE: I hear a loud noise coming found that in other countcries throughout the from the honourable member for Archerfield. world where medical practitioners did not Mr. K. J. Hooper: What about the time operate the breathalyser, chemists or labora­ you used to kick the drunks every time you tory assistants had this responsibility. That walked past? is what I said in my second-reading speech on behalf of the Opposition. It is not my Mr. LANE: I am getting weird interjec­ intention to delay the Committee but simply tions from the honourable member for to indicate to the Minister and the Govern­ Archerfield who, before coming here, had ment that, whatever the consequences may shown scant respect for the law in the be, we have at least endeavoured to keep a street demonstrations in which he took part on many occasions. I suppose we can expect system operating in this State that has proved the same sort of behaviour from him in the to be successful ever since the Act was Chamber. amended in 1968. Irrespective of what we said in 1968, we wanted to maintain this I say that the Queen Street mentality of system. We have no ill feelings at all against the Opposition is displayed in moving these the Police Force. amendments. Opposition members do not seem to have any understanding of the Mr. Lane: Who do you think you're vastness of this State or of the importance kidding? of having uniformity in legislation and in its application through the Police Force Mr. NEWTON: The honourable member throughout Queensland. I ask the honour­ might be a bit hard to kid. Some people able member for Belmont to tell us exactly who will operate the breathalyser in Boulia are a bit thick between the ears. Of course, or Bedourie. I believe that all citizens while he is in this Chamber he has to be throughout the State are entitled to the same respected. justice under this legislation. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3495

These days, members of the Police Force Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ are perhaps a bit better educated than they Minister for Transport) (12.36 a.m.): The were back in the 1920's and they would not clause was very well canvassed when the have any trouble at all in operating the amendment was under debate. I move-- machine. It is a simple mechanical device "That the question be now put." that my five-year-old son could operate without the slightest trouble. Question put; and the Committee divided­ A direct slur has been cast on the Police AYES, 38 Force tonight by the honourable member for Ahern Low Alison McKechnie Belmont in raising this matter. It illustrates Bjelke-Petersen Miller Camm Moore, R. E. the anti-police attitude of Opposition mem­ Camp bell Murray bers. They have displayed it often. They Chinchen Ne a] Cory Newbery are very loath to see any additional power Crawford Porter or responsibility put into the hands of these Edwards Rae Fletcher Row officers who serve this State and this Gov­ Frawley Small ernment very well and who maintain law and Gunn Sullivan Hewitt, N. T. E. Tomkins order very well even down to the simple Hewitt, W. D. Tooth functions under this Act in the remotest Hinze Wharton Hodges towns and corners of the State. I think it is Hooper, K. W. Houghton Tellers: a shocking indictment of the Opposition that Kaus it should suggest tonight that police are Knox Lane incapable of operating the breathalyser. Lee Muller Either they are tongue in cheek or they have been told to do it by people outside. NoEs, 26 Baldwin Lee se All of us should support the legislation, Blake Marginson and members of the Opposition should be Bousen Moore, F. P. Bromley Newton man enough to do so. Burns O'Donnell Davis Wallis-S:nith Mr. BROMLEY (South Brisbane) (12.35 Dean Wood,P. Hanlon Wright a.m.): It is typical of the previous speaker Hanson Yewdale to launch a vicious tirade against the Opposi­ Harris Harvey tion when it comes forward with sensible Houston Tellers: suggestions. Inch Jensen Hoop er, K. J. The honourable member for Belmont has Jordan Jones, N. F. told the Committee the reason for the amend­ ment. We certainly did not expect a tirade of PAIRS Herbert Tucker abuse such as that launched by the honour­ Armstrong Aiken able member for Merthyr. However, it is Bird Melloy Hughes Wood, B. in keeping with his gangster-type activities Scott-Young Jones, R. when he was a member of the Special Chalk D'Arcy Branch. Instead of making a worth-while Resolved in the affirmative. submission, he has stretched your tolerance, Mr. Lickiss, by abusing the Opposition. I Question-That clause 9, as read, stand think it is a poor show. part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided- Mr. Lane: Have you ever been to Boulia? AYES, 38 Mr. BROMLEY: I have been to Boulia, Ahern Low Alison McKechnie and I would like to send the honourable Bjelke-Petersen Miller Camm Moore, R. E. member for Merthyr there. I am amazed Campbell Murray that with all his so-called contacts in the Chinchen Neat Cory Newbery Police Force he has not received a direct Crawford Porter statement to the effect that the police are Edwards Rae Fletcher Row either for or against the use by them of the Frawley Small breathalyser. Gunn Sullivan Hewitt, N. T. E. Tomkins Hewitt, W. D. Tooth Our amendment was put forward in good Hinze Wharton faith, and I strongly object to an ex-member Hodges Hooper, K. W. of the Special Branch-one who is now prob­ Houghton Tellers: ably an under-cover man-attacking one of Kaus Knox Lane my colleagues for moving it. Lee Muller 3496 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

NoEs, 26 Mr. BURNS: No, but that is a public ;place and some action would be taken Baldwin Leese Blake Marginson against them. I am speaking about private Bousen Moore, F. P. property. l'here must be some place where Bromley Newton Burns O'Donnell people can let off steam, and we certainly Davis Wallis-Smith do not want them on the roads enda:ngering Dean Wood, P. Hanlon Wright others. I do not think the amending pro­ Hanson Yew dale Harris vision should be so wide. Harvey Houston Tellers: Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ Inch Jensen Hooper, K. J. Minister for Transport) (12.49 a.m.): The Jordan Jones, N. F. honourable member has answered his own question. It is there to ensure that we can apprehend people who use areas in which PAIRS: the police do not presently have jurisdiction. Herbert Tucker Armstrong Aiken I am sure that the police will not abuse this Bird Melloy Jaw. If they do, we will have another look Hughes Wood, B. at it. Scott-Young Jones, R. Chalk D'Arcy Mr. Houstoru If there are any more Resolved in the affirmative. Lanes in the Police Force, it will be abused. Clause 10, as read, agreed to. THE CHAIRMAN: Order! I point out to the Leader of the Opposition that that is an Clause 11-Amendment of s.17; Careless driving of motor vehicles- unparliamentary statement. Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (12.47 a.m.): This Mr. K. W. HOOPER: Many honourable clause will make section 17 read- members have discussed with me the use "A:ny person who drives a motor of motor vehicles, particularly unregistered vehicle on a road or elsewhere without ones, in public places and the Government due care and attention or without reason­ is investigating legislation in this regard. able consideration for other persons using the road or place shall be guilty of an Clause 11, as read, agreed to. offence." Clauses 12 to 15, both inclusive, as read, ~hat is rather wide. To me, this could apply agreed to. to a racing track or a paddock in a private property. Any person using either of those Clause 16-Amendment of s. 49; Facilita­ places could be charged with an offence. tion of proof- Surely a person is entitled to drive without due care and attention on a property the Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (12.50 a.m.): The size of that oWi!led by the honourable mem­ provision of clause .J6 to which I direct the ber for South Coast. He would not be offending against anybody else. If he were attention of the Committee is the insertion driving in a public place "without reason­ of a new paragraph (u) in section 49 of the able consideration for other persons," some Act. It reads- action should be taken. If a person wants "Evidence of the condition of a breath to do something childlike or practise trial analysing instrument, as defined in section driving in a paddock which is not a public place-- 16A, or the manner in which it was operated shall not be required unless Mr. O'Donnell: They don't even need a evidence that the instrument was not in licence. proper condition or was not properly Mr. BURNS: As the honourable member operated has been adduced." for Belyando said, they do not even need a I take the point that the average fellow licence in those circumstances. Surely the provision is too wide. I do not know what who is picked up while going home at the Government is trying to do. Is it trying 3 o'clock in the morning and taken down to cover the people who cause damage in to the police station to breathe into the public places such as parking lots? I am bag or to be tested on the instrument has sure that the intention is good but if some­ very little idea whether it works correctly body set up a driving school in a paddock and said to people, "you can do what you or not. The evidence that should be adduced like for a while", they could be charged against a person is that the machine is even though they were on private property. operating properly. There should be a Mr. Hinze: Do you agree that people certification to that effect. The apprehended should be ab1e to drive up a.nd down The person should be able to say to himself, Spit at Southport? "Well, the machine i.s right and the police Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3497

say the reading is .'15. Obviously i[ have I move the following amendment:- failed the breathalyser test." The Minister "On page 37, after line 10, insert the is adding a new paragraph (u) to say that the following new clause:- evidence is not required unless someone says that the machine is not operating properly. '24. New s. 57 A. The Principal Act is I think of it the other way round; the amended by inserting after section 57 the evidence should be required in all cases. following section:- Therefore, I do not see any reason why "57 A. Issue of limited drivers' permits. the Committee should allow paragraph (u) to (1) Notwithstanding any other provision be inserted. of this Act, a person who- Clause 16, as read, agreed to. (a) is convicted of an offence against section 16 or of an offence Clauses 17 to 22, both inclusive, as read, which pursuant to section 16A is agreed to. deemed to be an offence against sub­ section (1) of section 16; Clause 23-Amendment of s. 57; Appeals with respect to issue of licenses, etc.- (b) as a result of such conviction is disqualified- Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (12.52 a.m.): (i) by this Act; or Clause 23 deals with appeals with respect (ii) by an order made under this to the issue of licences, etc., in the principal Act, Act. The clause contains quite a lengthy from holding or obtaining a driver's amendment repealing a great deal of sub­ license; and section (1) of section 57. As was quite clearly indicated to the Minister at the '(c) has not been previously con­ second-reading stage, the Opposition feels victed of an offence referred to in that this amendment, in conjunction with a paragraph (a) or of an offence under section 16 as that section stood provision giving a person the right to have immediately prior to the commence­ the endorsement removed from his licence ment of the Traffic Act Amendment or to have the licence restored after a Act 1974, period of years, represents a step in the right may apply to the court at the time of direction. conviction or within such time as may Section 57 of the Act deals with the situa­ be prescribed for the issue to him of a tion in which a person is unable to have an limited driver's permit. endorsement removed or to have his licence (2) The court shall not grant such an renewed by an authorised officer. In an application unless the applicant satisfies instance where that does not occur, he has it that he committed the offence in cir­ a right to go to the court and to put before cumstances that were not related to the it such evidence as is necessary. use of a motor vehicle in connexion with his work or employment and that the It deals also with the setting up of a holding of a driver's license by him is medical board where any other evidence necessary to enable him to continue in is required to satisfy the court that the his work or employment. person is fit and capable of having the (3) The court, if satisfied with respect endorsement lifted or the new licence pro­ to the matters referred to in subsection vided. (2) and with respect to such other On behalf of the Opposition I make it quite matters as may be prescribed and if it clear that we feel 'that justice is being done thinks fit having reg:l!rd to all the cir­ through the provision. I also make it clear cumstances of the case, may on the making of an application under this that it is my intention on behalf of the section make an order for the issue of Opposition to pursue the insertion of a new section in an endeavour to carry justice a limited driver's permit to the applicant. further for those persons whose livelihood (4) Notice of an order made by the would be affected by suspension or cancella­ court shall be given by the clerk of the tion of their drivers' licences. The amend­ court forthwith to the Commissioner for ment would relate to what has been spoken Transport or other authorized officer of on this side of the House as well as who shall issue a limited driver's permit on the other side as a "blue licence". I to the applicant and such permit shall be do not agree with that. deemed to have been issued immediately upon the disqualification of the applicant The Opposition favours the inclusion of a from holding or obtaining a driver's new section 57 A, entitled "Issue of limited license becoming effective. drivers' permits". As honourable members who have read the circulated amendment will (5) The order for the issue of a have noticed, the matter is left entirely to limited driver's permit shall be subject tl&e discretion of the court. to the payment by the applicant of the 3498 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

prescribed fee and to the imposition of (c) otherwise than in connexion such limitations and conditions upon the with his work or employment; applicant as the court thinks fit and, in (d) otherwise than in compliance in in addition thereto, as may be prescribed. all respects with the limitations and (6) A limited driver's permit shall conditions specified in the permit, issue for a period not exceeding twelve is guilty of an offence against this Act months from the time of disqualification and the permit is by such conviction and may be renewed from time to time, cancelled without any specific order. on payment of the prescribed fee, by the Commissioner for Transport or other (11) A person who is disqualified from authorized officer for a period not holding or obtaining a driver's license exceeding twelve months if during the and who is the holder of a limited currency of the permit the holder has driver's permit shall, whilst he is driving not contravened any of the limitations a motor vehicle and complying in all or conditions imposed in respect of its respects with the limitations and condi­ issue and has otherwise complied with tions of such permit, be deemed not to the provisions of this Act, and the renewal thereof shall be endorsed thereon be driving a motor vehicle whilst dis­ by the person renewing it. qualified from holding or obtaining a driver's license. (7) Limitations and conditions im­ posed with respect to the issue of a (12) Subject to this section, the provi­ limited driver's permit shall include sions of this Act and of any other Act limitations and conditions confining the apply to the holder of a limited driver's holder to the driving of a certain class permit to the same extent and as fully of motor vehicle or certain classes of and effectually as they apply to the motor vehicles, to driving in stipulated holder of a driver's license. places or localities, to stipulated hours during which he is entitled to drive and (13) A limited driver's permit ceases to the driving of a motor vehicle in to have force and effect upon the holder connexion with his work or employment. thereof becoming the holder of a driver's (8) The Commissioner for Transport license under and in accordance with this or other authorized officer in giving Act. effect to the order of the court shall (14) Without limiting the power to specify in the permit issued the limita­ make regulations conferred by section tions and conditions imposed. 70, regulations may be made under that (9) (a) The holder of a limited driver's section providing for such matters and permit may during its currency apply to things as may be considered necessary 1the court in manner prescribed for an or desirable for the purpose of giving order varying the limitations and condi­ effect to the provisions of this tions to which it is for the time being section.'~.' " subject or cancelling limitations and conditions and substituting others I do not intend to delay the Committee at therefor. this stage, although other honourable mem­ (b) If the court considers that the bers on this side of the Chamber may wish limitations and conditions should be to speak about the clause that the amendment varied or should be cancelled and others proposes to insert. The Opposition made its substituted therefor for the reason that intention clear during the second-reading the holder has changed his place of debate. It is not proposed to place responsi­ residence, place of work or employment bility in the hands of any particular person; or hours of work or employment or for but the court will be given authority, even any other reason that the court considers sufficient, it may order accordingly. after the commission of a first offence, to consider the livelihood of the person con­ (c) When an order is so made, the cerned. Sufficient illustrations of the serious Commissioner for Transport or other effect that the provisions of the Act may have authorized officer shall cause the limita­ tions and conditions as so varied or on a person's livelihood have already been substituted to be endorsed on the permit. given by honourable members on both sides of the Chamber. (10) A person to whom a limited driver's permit has been issued under Proposals similar to that put forward by this section who drives on a road a the Opposition are being considered in other motor vehicle- countries throughout the world and in other Australian States, and I commend the amend­ i(a) at a time or in a place or locality ment to the Committee. other than as specified in the permit; (b) other than a motor vehicle or a Mr. HARVEY (Stafford) (12.57 a.m.): The class of motor vehicle in respect of ground has been covered extensively, but I which the permit was issued; wish to refer briefly to a couple of points. Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill 3499

Subsection 1 (c) of the proposed new administered. It could affect so many section says- people. What about the travelling salesman? "has not been previously convicted of He could not get it because of the nature an offence . . ." of his work. This is where the bugs are. It would have to be examined a lot more That is one point to be kept in mind. It then closely than we have had an opportunity goes on to say- of doing. I a.ssure honourable members "may apply to the court at the time of opposite that it has been examined, but I conviction or within such time as may be am not satisfied at ~his stage that it could be done sati~>factorily. I know that it is still prescribed . . ." being examined in other parts of the world, The next subsection relates to the conditions and in other parts of this country. At 'least that the court may consider-for example, we should have that breathing space to have whether the offence was committed in cir­ a look at it. cumstances not related to his work. A later Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the subsection provides that a limited driver's Opposition) (1.1 a.m.): I am afraid the permit shall issue for a period not exceeding Opposition cannot accept the assurances of 12 months, and then it is provided that, if the Minister. If ever there wa.s a reason so desired, the conditions under which the why we should move ahead with this, it was driver shall operate may be stipulated. If it what the Minister himself said just now is in connection with his work, the hours, the when he stated that some police do take location and the type of vehicle he may drive this into account. may be stipulated. Mr. K. W. Hooper: ,I did not say that. I referred to a demerit points suspension A number of limitations are placed on the by the police, not by the court. way in which such a limited driver's permit can be used, and it is actually confined to the Mr. HOUSTON: No, by the police. The means of earning his livelihood. Therefore, Minister suggested that some police take I commend the amendment to the Committee. a more ,lenient view than others. Mr. K. W. Hooper: No. I said it is Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ being done by some police. I did not say Minister for Transport) (12.58 a.m.): In they would take a more lenient view. moving this amendment the Opposition has raised a point that I have considered care­ Mr. HOUSTON: If some police do it fully with my committee. The suggestion and some police do not do it, then some certainly has much to commend it, but it also must take a more lenient view than others. has basic problems associated with it. If we Mr. K. W. Hoorper: You are putting a were not looking to heavier penalties and wrong connotation on what I said. more restrictions on drivers to produce results, the amending Bill would not be in Mr. HOUSTON: That is an interpretation its present form. of English that even the Minister must admit is right. The honourable members for Belmont and Stafford have really only reiterated what has Mr. K. W. Hooper: It is a play on words, been said earlier in the debate. I think that that is all. the honourable member for Mackay raised the matter during the debate on the second­ Mr. HOUSTON: I am not playing on reading. words. You are playing with the welfare of human beings. In my opinion, it is a little premature to insert such a section at this stage. I remind The CHAIRMAN: Order! The honour­ the Committee that the police are already able gentleman will address the Chair. taking action along these lines in a modified Mr. HOUSTON: We have had the case way relative to licences that have been sus­ of a man driving road-making equipment pended for loss of demerit points. It is a in a country shire. Those honourable mem­ matter that must be considered very care­ bers who know anything about the work fully. Although I am sympathetic to the in those areas would realise that sometimes Opposition's amendment, I do not feel in­ they have parties and what-have-you. We clined to accept it. However, I indicate to have the ca.se of a fellow who lost his licence honourable members that I will keep the because of drink-driving when he wa.s using position very closely under review because his private car. I am not condoning his I am as anxious as they are about the ability doing that, but surely there is a great differ­ of people, who are without a licence, to earn ence between taking a man's licence from a living and support their families. him and so preventing his driving for On the other hand, one might well ask pleasure, and taking it from him and so how many other people who have found them­ preventing his driving some other type of selves in conflict with the law are in a similar vehicle. position. Basically, it is no different ~o any Mr. K. W. Hooper: He can still kill, other section of the law that is being whether it is pleasure or work. 3500 Traffic Act Amendment Bill [2 & 3 APRIL 1974] Traffic Act Amendment Bill

Mr. HOUSTON: There is not quite the As the honourable member for Windsor same likelihood of somebody killing with says, it is a different matter if a person can a steamroller as there is with a motor-car. afford to employ a driver. I am concerned All we are doing by our amendment is about people ,who require drivers' licences giving the right to the court. That is the that apply to vehicles other than ordinary motor-cars. I am concerned about them difference. The Minister is accepting the because I have had representations from them. right of the police to do it. In the parti­ If the Minister gives an assurance I will cular case he has gone further and said that accept it, but why wait for six or 12 months the policeman is going to be the man to until somebody else does it? If we find the suggest that the driver blow into the bag, provision is being abused, the Minister can and then because the crystals in the bag come back to this Parliament in three months' change ~lour, he is the one who will subject time and tell us that it is not working. At him to a breaJthalyser test. The same man least we will have tried it out for the world will then charge him. to see and, at the same time, given these people a chance to continue to earn their Mr. K. W. Hooper: You were not listening. living. We would not have deprived anyone I said exactly the opposite to that. I said of his livelihood. the apprehending officer would not use the Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ breathalyser. Minister for Transport) (1.6 a.m.): The argument can be used in reverse. If the Mr. HOUSTON: That is something very driver of a work vehicle is apprehended and good to get from the Minister. If you charged, and goes through the ambit of the are going to guarantee that that happens, law and loses his licence, what difference does it will be an interesting situation in the it make that he is driving a work vehicle? one-man stations in the country. What is None at all. The subject was thoroughly going to happen there? Have you told us canvassed at the introductory stage and again exactly what is going to happen in the during the second reading. The proposal one-man stations? has merit, but it is premature at this stage. I move- Mr. K. W. Hooper interjected. "That the question be now put." Mr. HOUSTON: What you are saying Question put; and the Committee divided. is that this law is not going to apply to AYES, 37 country areas? Ahern McKechnie Alison Miller Mr. K. W. Hooper interjected. Bjelke-Petersen 1\Ioore, R. E. Cam m Muller Campbell Murray Mr. HOUSTON: Is this the type of -law Chinchen Neal that is going to apply only to city areas? Cory Newbery That is what you are actually saying in your Edwards Porter Fletcher Rae interjections. You are saying lthat it is Gunn Row only going to apply to the city areas. Hewitt, N. T. E. Small Hewitt, W. D. Sullivan Mr. K. W. Hooper interjected. Hinze Tomkins Hodges Tooth Hooper, K. W. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I am not going Houghton to permit cross-firing in the Chamber. Would Kaus Knox Tellers: the honourable gentleman please address the Lane Chair. Lee Frawiey Low Crawford Mr. HOUSTON: It is an impossibility NOES, 26 in the one-man country stations for the Baldwin Lee se Blake Marginson same person not to be required to do the Bousen Moore, F. P. job. Despite the Minister's statement, we Bromley Newton are very quickly going to find that in practice Davis O'Donnell Dean Wallis-Smith this is what is going to happen. Of course, Hanlon Wood, P. we all know that it does not matter what Hanson Wright Harris Yewdale the Minister says in this Chamber. Judges Harvey and magistrates put their own interpretation Hooper, K. J. Houston Tellers: on rthe law, and the Police Commissioner Inch will put his own interpretation on how it Jones, N. F. Jensen will be carried out. That is what will Jordan Burns happen in practice. I am concerned about PAIRS: the fact that these people will be receiving Herbert Tucker Arm strong Aiken a double penalty. I have no fight with Bird Melloy keeping off rthe road people who commit any Hughes Wood, B. Scott-Young Jones, R. offence. under any law, but surely we are Chalk D'Arcy not gomg to extend it. Resolved in the affirmative. Ministerial Statement [3 APRIL 1974) Questions Upon Notice 3501

Question-That the proposed new clause (Mr. Newton's amendment) be inserted­ put; and the Committee divided-

AYES, 26 Baldwin Leese Blake Margins on Bousen Moore, F. P. Bromley Newton Davis O'Donnell Dean Wallis-Smith Hanlon Wood, P. Han:con Wright Harris Yewdale Harvey Hooper, K, J, Houston Tellers: Inch Jones, N. F. Jensen Jordan Burns

NOES, 38 Ahern Low Alison McKechnie Bjelke-Petersen Miller Cam m Moore, R. E. Campbell Muller Chinchen Murray Cory Neal Edwards Newbery Fletcher Porter Gunn Rae Hewitt, N. T. E. Row Hewitt, W. D. Small Hinze Sullivan Hodges Tomkins Hooper, K. W. Tooth Houghton Wharton Kaus Knox Tellers: Lane Frawley Lee Crawford

PAIRS: Tucker Herbert Aiken Armstrong Melloy Bird Wood, B. Hughes Jones, R. Scott-Young D'Arcy Chalk Resolved in the negative. Clause 23, as read, agreed to. Clauses 24 to 31, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Bill reported, without amendment.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT ISSUE OF WRIT, SENATE ELECTION

Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah ---4Premier) {1.19· a.m.): For the information of honourable members I should like ro say briefly that yes1erday, Tuesday, 2 April, a Gazette Extraordinary was issued. Appro­ priate action was taken by His Excellency the Governor of Queensland by proclamation to issue a writ for the election of five senators. Nominations close on 22 April, the date of poll is 18 May, and the date for return of writ is 29 June. The House adjourned at 1.20 a.m. (Wednesday).