Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 23 NOVEMBER 1982

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Addresi in Reply 23 November 1982 2531

TUESDAY, 23 NOVEMBER 1982

Mr SPEAKER (Hon, S, J, MuUer, Fassifern) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a,m,

QUEENSLAND BOUNDARIES DECLARATORY BILL Assent reported by Mr Speaker,

ADDRESS IN REPLY ; Her Majesty's Acknowledgement ! Mr SPEAKER: I haye to inform the House that I have received the foUowing letter from His Excellency the Governor— "Government House, , Q. 4001 16th November, 1982, My Dear Mr Speaker, I have the honour to inform you that the Message of Ix)yalty from the Legislative Assembly dated 31st August, 1982, has been laid before The Queen and Her Majesty has asked that her appreciation.be conveyed to the Members of the Legislature of Queensland, Yours sincerely, JAMES RAMSAY, Governor, The Honourable S, J, Muller, M,L,A,, Speaker, Queensland Parliament, Parliament House, Brisbane. 4000" 2532 23 November 1982 Ministerial Statement!

PAPERS The following papers were laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:— Reports— Gladstone Harbour Board for the year ended 30 June 1982 C:aims Port Authority for the year ended 30 June 1982. The following papers were laid on the table:— i Orders in CouncU under— Supreme Court Act 1921-1979 Water Act 1926-1981 and the Statutory Bodies Financial Arrangements Act 1982 River Improvement Trust Act 1940-1981 and the Statutory Bodies Finanfciar Arrange­ ments Act 1982 Harbours Act 1955-1982 and the Statutory Bodies Financial Arrangements Act 1982 Harbours Act 1955-1982 Electricity Act 1976-1982 and the,Statutory Bodies Financial Arrangements Act 1982 Electricity Act 1976-1982 Agricultural Bank (Loatris) Act 1959-1981 Agricultural Bank (Loans) Act 1959-1981 and the Statutory Bodies Financial Anange- ments Act 1982 Primary Producers' Organisation and Marketing Act 1926-1981 and the Local Bodies' Loans Guarantee Act 1923-1979 Wheat Pool Act 1920-1979 and the Statutory Bodies Financial Arrangements Act

Proclamation under the Fishing Industry Organization and Marketing Act 1982 Regulations under— Public Service Act 1922-1978 Agricultural Standards Act 1952-1981 Fruit and Veget^les, Act 1947-1972 •. .;. By-law under the Harbours Act 1955-1982.

VOTE ON ACCOUNT, 1983-84 Mr SPEAKER read[ a message from His Excellency the Governor recommending that the following provision' be made on account of the services of the year ending 30 June 1984— :••:••••••••• -:•: . ..; From the Consolidated Revenue Fund the sum of seven hundred million dollars. From the Trust and Special Funds the sum of eight hundred million dollars; From the Loan Fund the sum of sixty milUon dollars. Message referred to Committee of Supply,

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Auditor-General's Report on Departmental Appropriation Accounts Hon. L, R. EDWARDS (Ipswich—^Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (11,7 a,m,): Honour­ able members will recaU that, following presentation by the Honourable the Premier on 28 October of the Auditor-General's Report on the I>epartmental Appropriation Accounts for the financial year ended 30 June 1982, there were a number of media reports which highlighted certain comments of the Auditor-General in what, to my thinking, was a quite sensational and provocative way. These reports focussM on references to certain end-of-year procedures which the Auditor-General referred to as "manipulation of accounts payable" and on comments about, to use the Auditor-General's words, ",,, Widespread transfers of appropriations between subdivisional items, all of which have been authorised by the Treasurer in accordance with Section 24 of the (Financial Administration and Audit) Act," Ministerial Statements 23 November 1982 2533

A particular issue was made of the reference to transfers between subdivisional items in the Loan Fund appropriations of the Works Department, this department being the only one specifically mentioned by the Auditor-General in this context, I was at the time, and still am, quUe concerned about the manner in which the Auditor-General's observations were interpreted and pr^ented. I would mention for emphasis that the matters could not have been regarded by the Auditor-General as of such shattering importance as the media reports implied, I say this because at no time during constant discussions with the Auditor-General and his inspectors on matters of substance and relevance to the financial administration of the State's affairs has he or his officers mentioned these matters to me or my officers as ones of serious concern to him. However, whUe it was clear to me that the situation warranted comment by me as Treasurer, I considered U necessary that, before doing so, I seek from the Auditor- General advice and clarification in regard to certain aspects of his report. Having now done this, I wish to place on record my observations in regard to the matters raised by the Auditor-General and, I hope, bring the matters back into correct perspective. Firstly, I want to deal with the use of the facility provided by the Financial Administration and Audit Act for transfers between items within the subdivisions of depiartmental appropriations. As explained quite succinctly and correctiy by the Auditor-General in page 4 of the report under reference^ subdivisional items are the individual units of expenditure on which the appropriations are buUt, and these relate as closely as possible to the organisation of work and the distribution of responsibUity within the departments. Under Section 24 of the Act the Treasurer may direct in writing that there be applied in aid of any subdivisional item that may be deficieht, a further sum out of any surplus arising in any other items of the same subdivision. My responsibility, as Treasurer, for overall financial management and Budget co-ordination requires that I be responsive to the need to reallocate Budget savings to areas of greater priority to ensure maximisation of the benefits Of available funds. To this end, a number of transfers was approved by me in terms of the prescriptions and purposes of the Act and these included those within the Loan Fund appropriations of the Works Department, which were the subject of particular comment by the Auditor-General. This is usual practice provided for by the Act and the transfers were not of any consequential difference in quantity and content than those of previous years. Contrary to the imputations that might be read into Press reports, there is absolutely nothing of a sinister, underhand or manipulative nature in the adjustments made between subdivisional items within the Works Department's or any other department's appropriation. Neither has the Auditor-General stated or inferred that there is. In the case of the Works Department, the transfers within the Loan Fund buildings appropriation to which the Auditor-General refers arise from accounting considerations which are peculiar to the operation of Loan Stores and Loan Special Suspense Accounts items. The necessity to effect them is foreseen when the Budget is framed. The procedure has been in vogue and accepted by the Auditor-General for a number of years. Secondly, I want to comment on the Auditor-General's reference to "manipulation of accounts payable". Here the Auditor-General draws attention to measures taken by departments at the end of the financial year to, ensure that Budget appropriations are not exceeded on the one hand and that funds available to them are utilised to best advantage on the other. The necessity to carefully manage accounts payable throughout and at the close of a financial year is particularly marked in the cash-based governmental financial and budgetary systems. Because appropriations lapse at 30 June and departments are Umited by their appropriations in the level of expenditure that can be incurred, it foUows that despite the careful appUcation of sound management practice, occasions will arise when accounts which 2534 23 November 1982 Ministerial Statements

should be paid in a particular financial year have to be held over as a first charge on the succeeding year's appropriations. Conversely, there may be circumstances where a department has unspent appropriations which permit the payment of accounts which otherwise would have fallen due in the succeeding year. I would not condcme the withholding of payments for unreasonable periods and, in practice, a decision to charge an account to one year or another does not necessarily affect the actual time of payment of the account. ' Neither would I, as Treasurer, in any circumstances, condone wasteful expenditure on unnecessary acquisitions or services and I am not aware of any instance where this has occurred. However, as the Auditor^eneral has expressed concern in regard to these end- of-year financial management activities, I have invited him to provide me with details of any that are of a questionable nature so that appropriate action can be taken. In.overview, then, contrary to media reports, the position is that there has been no malpractice, no "fiddling of books" or "cooking of books" -and no"spend-ups" in the Works Department or anyvvhere else. I am satisfied also that the Auditor-General never intended to imply that there have beeri and that his comments were intended to bring to the notice of Parliament in quite general terms certain aspects of established accounting and financial management procedures to which he.wishes to give further attention with a view to improved procedures being implemented if possible, , * Areas of Land Available for Aborigines and Islanders Hon, K, B, TOMKINS (Roma—Minister for Water Resources and Aboriginal and Island Affairs) (11,13 a.m.): It has been aUeged that discrepancies exist between the figures published in the annual reports of the Land Administration Commission and the Departmeht of Aborig­ inal and Islanders Advancement in relation to the areas of land available for Aborigines and Islanders, Similar figures have been published by both instrumentalities for many years and have not preyiously been contested. The only reason for this issue now being raised is quite evidently the proposed issue of deeds of grant ih trust. Details of these deeds are not available and will not become avaUable until the numerous intricacies associated with land tenure are resolved. It is not simply, a matter of writing out a deed, presenting it and registering it. There are numerous gazettals to be confirmed, areas to be defined and precise policies to be determined, a point to which I wiU refer again later. For example, there is nO point in issuing a deed of grant in trust and then discovering that a school reserve is incorrectly included. The recent allegations and the research upon which they are based faU to consider the fact that the Land Administration Commission figures are in relation to land officially gazetted as Aboriginal reserve, whereas those listed in the annual report of the Department of Aboriginal and Islanders Advancement refer to all lands to which Queensland Aborigines and Islanders officially have permissive access, use and benefit, I regret that, rather than confirming or even apparently considering this possibiUty, the issue was used for poUtical purposes. These additional lands are held ip yg,rious arrangenients (sych as leases, etc) and were developed to enable Aboriginal communities to have use of land which would not otherwise have been available, whUe concurrently enabling the rights of other groups to be preserved. It is a matter of balancing various needs, and this balancing has been most favourable to Aboriginal people. I propose tabling a list of Aboriginal reserves upon which communities with elected councils are establbhed under the relevant legislation, or which are contiguous to such land. These are now the primary concern, and until this issue is finaUsed there is little value in considering in detail the other areas such as country reserves. The list shows, community by community, the area of land gazetted now as Aboriginal reserve. The figures are not exactly and precisely accurate for two reasons. First, on all communities minimal excisions have been made for the provision of public services and facUities such as schools and hospitals. There should be no concern on these, as the developments are for the benefit of local residents and have been developed in co-operation and consultation with each community. The second matter is simply the Ministerial Statements 23 November 1982 2535 f,rf that the majority of reserves have not been surveyed. The boundaries are defined, Iften iw nature, but the area is an estimate rather than an exact figure In real terms, the am of land is the same whether an island is estimated at such-and-such a size or surveyed to find an exact figure. It is not intended to conduct surveys except where absolutely essential. The community ,r^a. on these reserves are already town-planned and, if fuU surveys were to be conducted of all Aboriginal reserve boundaries, it is likely that the total cost to the trustees or Government would be in the vicinity of $10m. That money can be better used in assisting the development of the communities, I may add that the projected "metes and bounds" descriptions are widely used throughout Queensland already. This was discussed in this House during the passage of the Land Act Amendment Act in the March session of this year. It is confirmed that the deeds of grant in trust will be based principally upon the existing Aboriginal reserve boundaries, and that careful consideration wiU be given to special circumstances existing for those few communities where lands other than gazetted Aboriginal reserves are involved. It is interesting to note that an average of about 132 ha or 327 acres of Aboriginal reserve land in (Queensland is involved under the proposed deeds of grant in trust for each man, woman and child resident on an Aboriginal and Islander community, irrespective of those Aboriginal reserve areas where no council is established and of the available areas which are not gazetted as Aboriginal reserves. There is substantial variation in the average per community, both in terms of area and of quality of land; but, contrary to popular belief. Aboriginal reserves in Queensland have always been founded upon some of the best, if not the best, land within a particular region. This was due to the poUcy adopted in 1897, which laid great stress on the potential for eventual self-sufficiency on the reserves. It is not popular among the Government's critics today to acknowledge the enlightened foresight of this poUcy, but land use remains a matter which wiU require serious consideration by the various communities as it is central to their continued development both socially and economically. Specifically, the recent allegations referred to three communities and attempted to portray these as indicative of every situation. This is blatant sensationalism, because each of the three instances was isolated in its particular circumstances, I repeat: most Aboriginal communities do not have such circumstances, and the proposed deeds of grant in trust will be based upon the existing Aboriginal reserve boundaries. No final decision has yet been made on policy matters related to the absolute extent of the deeds of grant in trust. Should the deeds, for example, include uninhabited, offshore islands in all cases, or should these remain as reserves for the use and benefit of Aborigines and Islanders, but with elements of local control vested in the nearby councils? I am inclined towards the latter view, at least for the time being. Much responsibility is already being placed upon the communities and particularly upon the councils. The figures that I wiU table today show a divergence from those listed in the annual report of the Department of Aboriginal and Islanders Advancement in the cases of six communities. Interestingly, in two cases these figures substantially exceed those published in that annual report, although this was apparently not regarded as worth mentioning by those alleging improper conduct by this department. Wkh two others there is a minor discrepancy of approximately 2 ha.

Mr SPEAKER: Order! Again I make an appeal to Ministers. They might be inclined to table ministerial statements that are very lengthy. Today is a day allotted to Supply, so question-time will cease at 12 o'clock. From my point of view, major difficulties may arise m the Chamber unless lengthy ministerial statements are curtailed. I appeal to the Minister to give consideration to my comments. - Mr TOMKINS: Very well, Mr Speaker, I will accede to your request. The details for those communities concerned are included in the documents which I now table and seek leave to have incorporated in "Hansard" (Leave granted.) 2536 23 November 1982 Ministerial Statements

Whereupon the honourable gentleman laid the following documents on the table—

Aborigiiul Community County Reserve Approximate Area Population as Reserve Area per No. in Hectares at 30-3-82 Capita Wectarei) Community Resident

Cherbourg ,. Fitzroy .. 75 1020 306 556 • >|?|:03 123-9 Doomadgee Nicholson ,, 2 145 687-0 1003 145;3 Edward River Koolatah .. 2 466198-3 412 1 131-S Banks .1 87 039-9\,n.n,, , 570 1825 157 16 976-6/"'*'"*"^ Kowanyama ,i Dunbar and Kool­ 1 258 9990 821 3J5-5 atah' 84 174-71 3 153 942-6 Lockhart River ., Weymouth ,, 4 75 271-6 ^316 520-4 404 783-5 6 3 0850 ,. 7 • 46-5 J Palm Island CardweU 216 6 253-2 1808 3-5 2 , 21496-91 J " !' 8 17 9870 9 . 710-2 10 25200 Northern Peninsula Area Somerset 12 51-8 •479 501-5 1256 381-8 13 83-4 19 10 602-8 15 15021-9 18 255-0 Dulhunty, Jardine and Somerset 11 410 772-5. Weipa South ., Weipa 4 124-2 519 0-2 Woorabinda Wooroona ., 12 21 760-0 549 39-6 Wujal Wujal Solander 124 259 0-4 125 '??:?} "4-5 Nares 204 J5 438-8j.,5 4jo.3 1458 10-59 340

Hammond Island Torres 4 1481-21 •> Coconut Island .. Torres ,, ' ,. 20 323-7 StephenilMand .. ., Torres 26 323-7 Warraber Island .. Torres 27 64-7 Yorke Island Torres .. 28 129-5 Damley Island .. Torres 29 376-4 Murray Island Torres .. .. i 30 485-6 Saibai Island Torres .. ., 31 14 164-0 Yam Island Torres 32 2590 Mabuiag Island .. Torres .. .. 33 647-5 •50 607-3 •4 000 approx 12-7 Dauan Island .. Torres 34 323-7 Boigu Island Torres 35 8 296-1 Moa Island ., Torres 37 14 568-7 Badu Island ,. Torres 38 8 984-0 71 164-3 .. Torres 89 1-8 93 1-5 98 11-3 99 0-6^ -

Community DAIA Annual Report Aboriginal Reserve Discrepancy Figures

Cherbourg 12 735-064 ha 3 123-9 ha 9 611-16 ha

Cherbourg community has the use and access to a Forestry Reserve Area under a special arrangement. This is well known at Cherbourg and has not been a subject of complaint. The arrangements have existed for over 40 years. Lockhart River | 313 388-838 ha | 316 520-4 ha | 3131-57 ha The difference in this case is due to the fact that Aboriginal Reserves, county of Weymouth. Reserve Nos. 6 and 7, gazetted in 1974 and 1973, with areas of 3 085 and 46-5 hectares, were not included m the total figure for Lockhart River in the Annual Reports. Questi&w Upon Notice 23 November 1982 2537

^Community DAIA Aimual Report Aboriginal Reserve Discrepancy Figures

Palm Island 6 255-232 ha 6 253-2 ha 2 ha The land has not been totaUy sti^eyed and an error of -03 per cent, which may be attributable to excMons or estimation, is not genuinely a matter of concern. The Annual Reports have not included the area of Fantome Island (about 735 ha), which is not part of the Palm Island Aboriginal Reserve but is nevertheless avaUable to Palm Islanders. Fantome Island is currently a Reserve for official purposes as a result of having formerly been a Health Reserve. Northern Peninsula Area I 477 534-336 ha | 479 501-5 ha | 1 967-2 ha The Annual Reports have not included in the Total NPA figure the areas of some off-shore Islands which are Aboriginal Reserves, Weipa South | 354 828-685 ha | 124-2 ha | 354 704-48 ha With the passing of the Commonwealth Alumuiium Pty, Ltd, Agreement Act of 1957, the Aboriginal Reserve Weipa (R, 4) under the trusteeship of the then Director of Native Affairs, was reduc^ in area from about 1 370 square miles to about 307 Acres (124-2 ha). Subsequent Excisions for school, church and other services have left a remaining reserve of about 119 ha. A special bauxite mining lease was issued to Comaico by the Mines Department over those parts of the land's which formerly cotniprised the Weipa reserve R4 and the Act provided for the surrender of land from the SBML in order that the lease did not exceed a certain area at specified times. No stipulation is made in the Act as to further dealing with the surrendered areas held as Crown land pending further assessment of the mineral potential. It is anticipated the bulk will revert in due course. Rights exist over the muiing leases not being actually utUised for mining purposes and, as well, pastoral activities are conducted on them by the Weipa community.

' * PETITIONS The Qerk announced the receipt of the following petitions— State Service Superannuation Scheme From Mr Bertoni (32 signatories) praying that the Parliament of Queensland will remove aU discrimination from the State Service Superannuation Scheme.

Establishment of Adoption.Contact Register From Mr Ahern (18 signatories) praying that the Parliament of Queensland wUl reverse Cabinet's: decision not to legislate for the establishment of an adoption contact register. Petitions received.

QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE Questions submitted on notice by members were answered as follows:— !• Road-trains, Banana-Biloela Road Mr Harper asked the Minister for Local Government, Main Roads and Police— With reference to the considered decision of the Main Roads Department, in consultation wUh the Superintendent of Traffic at , that road-trains should not be allowed to operate on the road between Banana and BUoela— Would special permits be issued to road-train operators who are prepared to meet the cost of escort services whilst on this section of road? Answer:— Special permits wUl not be issued for road-trains on approved routes.

2- Reflectorised Material on Railway Rolling-stock Mr Harper asked the Minister for Transport— With reference to the assertion that the fitting of reflectorised material on railway rolhng-stock as an aid to the prevention of accidents with motor vehicles at road crossings would seem to have widespread community support— What are the (a) practical reasons and/or (b) legal reasons for AustraUan Railways rejecting this suggestion? 2538 23 November 1982 Questions Upon Notice

A nswer:— I am advised that some of the practical reasons why AustraUan Railways has rejected the fitting of reflectorised material on railway rolling-stock include the following— (a) There has been insufficient research in Australia to demonstrate that the fitting of reflectorised material on railway rolling-stock would reduce the incidence of level-crossing accidents. The information which is available discloses that the vast majority of level-crossing accidents occur in daylight and result from the locomotive striking the motor vehicle. Reflectorised strips would not contribute to avoiding these accidents. (b) The physical difficulties in affixing the material to the many thousand wagons in service, maintaining same and replacing the material at the end of the material's comparatively short life. (c) The difficulty irt fitting the material on some types of wagons, such as flat wagons or preyeiiting the material from being obscured by tarpaulins. (d) The very substantial costs associated with the work as set out in (b). Some of the legal implications are:— (a) The responsibUity to see that the material was adequate for the purpose. (b) That it was maintained in a good state of repair and kept clean at all times. (c) That it was fitted to all rolling-stock. The solution to the problem of accidents at level crossings is a very complex one and the fitting of reflectorised strips is only one possible means of combating the problem. The question of fitting reflectorised stripy to wagons is being further examined by the Railways of Australia Committee and by the Queensland Railways.

3. Legal Action Against Owners of Transport Vehicles not Registered in Queensland Mr Harper asked the Minister for Transport— Will he take action to have evidence made available from records of the Main Roads Department so that appropriate legal action may be taken against the owners of transport vehicles not. registered in Queensland and operating without Queensland licences to hire and roadworthiness certificates, thus protecting the interests of Queensland transport operators who comply with Queensland laws and contribute to the maintenance of this State's road system? • • Answer:— If a vehicle bearing registration issued in another State was detected carrying goods for hire within Queensland without a requisite licence to hire issued in this State, then subject to the circumstances, prosecution action would be initiated against the offender. As I previously indicated to the honourable member on Thursday, 28 October last, it is a pre-condition to the issue of a licence to hire that the relevant vehicle must be the subject of a current certificate of inspection issued under the Motor Vehicles Safety Act, irrespective of whether the vehicle is fully registered in Queensland or any other State or Territory. All States and Territories recognise the right of vehicles fully registered in other States to operate within the various States, provided the requirements of the respective State laws are complied with. Whether the vehicles involved satisfy the requirements for reciprocal recognition is a matter for the vehicle registering authorities in the respective States. In Queensland, this matter falls within the jurisdiction of the Honourable the Minister for Local Government, Main Roads and Police. Vehicles which are not fully registered in any other State or Tertitory, but are specifically registered for interstate carriage only will not, under any circumstances, be issued with licences to hire to authorise intrastate operations in Queensland. (juestloiis Upon Notice 23 November 1982 2539

CdmpUance with Queensland registration and transport-related laws is one of the areas which wiU come under the close scrutiny of the Highway Patrol, and if the honourable member has any specific details which would aid the Highway Pati-ol in its inquiries, I would be only too happy to receive them from him. i Education Entry Requirements for Employment Mr Smith asked the Minister for Education— (1) WUh respect to the new method of reporting academic achievement in State high schools under the pUot ROSEA program and, further, as some students completing school this year at Years 9 and 11 will need to produce evidence of achievement in accordance with standards that Were determined under the Radford scheme, what action is being taken to formalise education entry requirements for various callings inchiding apprenticeships? (2) When is it expected that entry requirements for students with ROSEA results wiU be pubUcly avaUable? (3) Are there any special legislative or regulatory difficulties in matching ROSBA-based achievement results vrith the stated education entry standards required for the nursing profession?

Answer:— (1) No formal action is necessary at this stage to amend existing entry requirements for various caUings, including apprenticeships, to provide for a student who leaves school this year after having completed Year 9 or Year 11 at a school which is participating in Phase 1 of what is known as the ROSEA scheme. As is customary, a school wiU provide information on any such student's achieve­ ment which is appropriate to his/her entry to general employment. With regard to apprenticeships, a student who has completed Year 11 and seeks entry to a Category A calling wiU be able to present a Junior certfficate together with information on Year U achievement provided by the school, in accordance with the revised second schedule of the Industry and Commerce Training Act as amended earlier this year, A student who has completed Year 9 is eligible for Category B and Category C callings only. The entry requirements for such calUngs are "Completion of Year 9" and "Completion of Year 8" respectively, A statement to that effect, from the principal of the school, is sufficient for this purpose, (2) The recent amendments to the Industry and Commerce Training Act 1979- 1982, have made possible a; smooth transition from the use of the 7-1 rating system for entry to apprenticeships to the use of the ROSEA system of reporting student achievement.by verbal discriptors. Since Education Regulations provide for the Board of Secondary School Studies to issue Junior certificates and Senior certificates only on completion of Year 10 and Year 12 respectively, certificates in ROSEA terms vriU first be issued in December 1983, A formal statement on entry requirements for students with ROSEA results wiU be made weU in advance of that time, (3) A change in Nursing Studies Regulations is required to provide for students from Phase 1 ROSEA schools seeking entry to the nursing profession in 1984, I do not anticipate any difficulties in applying ROSEA achievement categories to such regulations. Advice on this matter is being prepared by the Board of Secondary School Studies for the Board of Nursmg Studies,

*> Compulsory Unionism in Tertiary Education Centres Mr Smith asked the Minister for Education— With reference to the article which appeared in "Sunday Sun" on 7 November, wherein it was suggested that the was about to introduce legislation to outlaw compulsory unionism in the State's universities and colleges of advanced education— (1) Is he aware that the Western Australian Government recently reviewed the position and decided against such legislation? 2540 23 November 1982 Questions Upon Notice

(2) Has any other State in Australia legislated against compulsory unionism at its tertiary education centres? (3) Has he consulted with student union representatives on the ramifications of legislation outlined in the "Sunday Sun" article and, if so, what universities or coUeges of advanced education did those student leaders represent? Answer:— (1 to 3) The "Sunday Sun" article and the question both assume that the Queens­ land Government is "about to introduce legislation to outlaw compulsory unionism in the State's universities and colleges of advanced education." As that assumption is far from accurate, further comment is unwarranted.

i. Increase in Administrative Staff Levels, Department of Education Mr Smith asked the Minister for Education— WUh reference to the 1982-83 Budget Estimates for the Department of Education, which provided for (a) an increase of 1 545 teacbers, (b) an increase of 241 ancillary staff and (c) a nil increase in Chief Office staff— ? (1) What action has been taken, or is proposed, to provide an increase in administrative staff levels within the Department of Education to cater for the large increase in the teaching and ancillary staff establishment? (2) WiU the PubUc Service Board consider the representations being made by the State Service Union in this regard? Answer:— * ' : - , (1 & 2) The honourable member will be aware that the staffing of, my department and aU other State Government departments is carried out in accordance with Govern­ ment policy, as administered by the Public Service Board, The PubUc Service Board is responsible to the Honourable the Premier, and I suggest that the honourable member's question be directed to the HonouraUe the Premier, Mr Smith: I do so accordingly,

% » Landholdings of Mr Sebastiao Maia Mr McLean asked the Minister for Lands and Forestry— (1) How much land in Queensland is held by Mr Sebastiao Maia of Brazil? (2) How much of Mr Maia's land is held in the Lawn Hill holding, north-west of Mount Isa? (3) What are the terms, specifically, the length, the annual rental and any special conditions, of Mr Maia's lease on the Lawn HiU holdings? (4) How much has Mr Maia expended on improvements on the Lawn Hill holding since receiving the lease? (5) Did Mr Maia have permits to construct a major earth construction dam across Lawn Hill Creek, which resulted in the death of hundreds of trees? (6) Did the Land Administration Commission in October 1980 endorse a National Parks and Wildlife Service proposal for about 100000 hectares on Lawn Hill Station? (7) What is the stock-carrying capacity of the land proposed to be included in the Lawn Hill national park, compared with the remainder of Mr Maia's land? Answer:— (1) None in his own name. The Maia group of companies comprising Lawn Hill Pty Limited, Tasa Pty Ltd and Taub Pty Limited hold a total area of about 11418.94 sq. km under lease or licence. (2) About 6 925 sq. km. (3) The lease of Lawn Hill pastoral holding is registered in the name of Lawn Hill Pty Limited and is for a term of 30 years from 1 October 1976. The annual rental for the first rental period of 10 years of the lease is $8,656.25, Questions Upon Notice 23 November 1982 2541

Special Ckinditions: 1, Within the first 10 years expend not less than $1,000,000 in equal proportions each year in provision of additional fencing, water facilities and structural improve­ ments generally, 2. Maintain all improvements existing at the commencement of the term of the lease and the improvements effected in compliance with condition 1 in a good and substantial state of repair. (4) Since the commencement of the lease, the lessees have spent $422,050 on new improvements in partial compliance with the special condition of lease. In addition to this, the lessee has expended $212,000 on maintenance of new and existing improvements. The lessee has a program for substantial improvement works over the next two years. (5) I have no knowledge of construction of a dam across Lawn HUl Creek; perhaps this question should be directed to the Minister for Water Resources and Aboriginal and Island Affairs. (6) On 24 June 1981, the Land Administration Commission advised the National Parks and Wildlife Service that it wUl concur in making a recommendation for declaration as a national park in the south-western part of Lawn HUl holding, south- westeriy of the Constance Range, exclusive of an area in the central part thereof required for departmental and official purposes by the Mines Department. (7) As the proposed national park area and the area proposed for reservation for departmental and official purposes are severed from the balance of Lawn HUl holding by the Constance Range and therefore generally inaccessible, the stock-carrying capacity thereof would be negligible. Mr McLean: Mr Speaker, I redirect part (5) of the question to the Minister for Water Resources and Aboriginal and Island Affairs. t. Manufacture of Diesel-electric Locomotives for Newlands Mine Traffic Mr Underwood asked the Minister for Transport—' (1) Are 13 diesel-electric locomotives for Newlands mine traffic being manu­ factured by Goninans in New South Wales and assembled by GEA in ? (2) WiU aU components previously manufactured in Queensland by Clyde and Commonwealth Engineering be made in Queensland for these locomotives? (3) Are they to be made like a mechano set in NSW and assembled in Queensland? (4) If the answers to (1), (2) and (3) are "Y«" what effect does the letting of this order to a NSW company have on employment in Queensland? Answer:— (1) No. The locomotives wUl be constructed in TownsviUe by Goninans, Specialised components wiU be iniported from USA, as is customary in the manufacture of diesel- electric locomotives. (2) AU components norrtia\ly manufactured in Queensland by Clyde Engineering (Qld) Pty Ltd or Commonwealth Engineering (Qld) Pty Ltd for Clyde locomotives will be made in Queensland for the locomotives to be supplied by Goninans, with the possible exception of traction motors. (3) No. (4) This contract will have the effect of increasing employment o^f^ortunities in Townsville, as up to 100 men will be required for the contract

9- Heron Island Pty Ltd Lease of Wilson Island Mr Wilson asked the Minister for Lands and Forestry^— With reference to the statement by Leon Wruck, chairman of the P & O group's Heron Island Pty Ltd subsidiary, in "The Courier-Mail" of 12 November "that it was generally not known that his company had the lease of the whole of the tiny, 2.37 ha island for some time but had agreed to give up half of it to allow a national park to be declared there"— (1) When, was this company given a lease of Wilson Island, what were the terms of the lease, the rental, and what restrictions were placed on its use? 2542 23 November 1982 Questions Upoil Notice

(2) When was the first application for a, lease lodged by P & O or its subsidiary? (3) Was any application by the group rejected? (4) WiU he table the environmental impact statement of this tourist proposal on this tiny island? (5) As he was quoted in September as saying that P & O could keep applying for a lease on the island but they had been told there would be no development so the company was wasting its time, wiU he give reasons for his change of attitude, or were he and his department overriden again? Answer:— (1) The company had no lease of Wilson Island or any part of it. It did purchase a Special Lease No. 33716 from Julie June Booth in 19791 Such Special Lease Na 33716 was over Wreck Island, and the company, after its purchase, sought a new lease over Wreck Island. As the National Parks arid Wildlife Service would not agree to a new lease over Wreck Island but had no objection to a new lease being granted in respect of WUson Islan4 the company applied for a lease in respect of Wilson Island. (2) In respect of Wilson Island, in late November 1979; (3) No, (4) No,.there was none, A low-key usage alone is envisaged, (5) A correx:t decision was properly taken.

rO. (Compensation for Brucellosis Mr Wilson asked the Minister for Employment and Labour Relations— (1) How many cases of bruceUosis have been paid compensation in each of the last five yea^-s? (2) In which meatworks were these cases reported? (3) How many applications for brucellosis or meatworkers' fevers were rejected in the same period? Answer:—^ (1) Statistic^ data on occupational diseases in Queensland are prepared by Bureau of Statistics and the latest year for which infonnation is available is 1979-80, For the three years 1977-1980 the number of claims paid for the classi­ fication "Q Fever, lfrucell,osis and others" was^- 1977-78 1978-79 1979-80 381 373 351 (2) The Australian Bureau of Statistics regards statistical data in respect of individual employers as confidential and I regret that this information is not available. (3) So far as rejections were concerned,for the three identical years, the figures were— 1977-78 1978-79 1979-80 If 20 H 20 I might add that the Workers' Compensation Board is in the process of calling tenders for a new computer which, when it is fuUy operative, should assist in the identification of such claims to a more current date.

11. Inbound and Outbound Flights, Townsville International Airport Mr Wilson asked the Minister for Tourism, National Parks, Sport and The Arts— (1) Will he list the number of inbound passengers (a) arriving and (b) in transit on flights arriving at Townsville International Airport from (i) Auckland, (ii) Christchurch, (iii) Hong Kong, (iv) Honolulu, (v) London, (vi) Los Angeles, (vii) San Francisco, (viii) Singapore and (ix) Vancouver in the periods February-December 1981 and January-June 1982? (2) How many flights arrived in each of these periods from these destinations? (3) What were the comparable figures for outbound flights? Question? Upon Notice 23 November 1982 2543

Answer:— (1) (a) The number of inbound passengers arriving on flights at TownsviUe Inter­ national Airport is listed below:

1982 1981 (to June) Provisional

From Auckland 675 1738 From Christchurch 13 From Hong Kong From Honolulu 1 114 876 From London 5 249 From Los Angeles 2 456 1398 From San Francisco , : 1 136 405 From Singapore ' 2 545 Frori'Vancouver .. .. ,, 78

(b) Information regarding passengers in transit is not readily available. (2) Flights arriving from these destinations are-T-,

1981 1982 (to June)

Auckland 43 26 Christchurch Nil Nil Hong Kong .: Nil Nil Honolulu/Los Angeles/San Francisco/Vancouver ., 43 26 London/Singapore Nil 13

(3) This information is not readily available.

11. Investigation into Qangos , . Mr Prentice asked the Premier— Whh reference to his answer to my question of 26 October in which he said the reporting requirements and procedures for statutory bodies and committees were under investigation— (1) Who is conducting the investigation? (2) To whom will it report? (3) When wUI that report be received? (4) Will it be tabled in this ParUament? Answer:— (1 to 4) The investigation into the reporting requirements and procedures for statutory bodies and committees is being undertaken by the Premier's Department in consultation with the Auditor-General. It is anticipated that the results of this investi­ gation will be reported to me in the near future. The investigation is a departmental one and it is not proposed to table any report in the House.

11. Pyramid Selling Schemes (EUmination) Committee Mr Prentice asked the Minister for Justice and Attorney-General— With reference to the Pyramid Selling Schemes (Elimination) Committee— (1) Who are the members of this committee? (2) When did it last meet and how many times has it met in the last twelve months? 2544 23 November 1982 (^estions Upon Notice

(3) How many people does it employ? (4) How are its operations funded? (5) Does he believe that there will be a continuing need for this committee? (6) If not, when wUl it be disbanded? (7) To whom, does it report? Answer:— (D- ir John Reeve Nosworthy^ CBE, Solicitor of the Supreme Court of (^eensland (Chairman); Rodney Malcolm Wylie, FCA; Douglas Haig Fulcher, FAIM, AISM; . • John Geoffrey Orr, FASA; FCIS; Bruce Julian PhUlips, Dip,Com,, AAUQ, FSIA, AASA Snr; James RusseU Savage, FCA; Alan Spencer Vivian, FCIS; John Angus Reyment, Registrar of Commercial Acts (ex officio), (2) The committee last met On 28 September 1978, It has not met in the last 12 months, (3) NU, (4) From consolidated revenue, (5 & 6) At this stage, I am of the opinion that it is advisable to continue the cranmittee, but the needi for its retention is being closely monitored,' (7) Under section 10 of the Pyramid SeUing Schemes (EUmination) Act 1973-1981 the committee is required to report to the Honourable the Minister for Justice and Attorney-

14_ Toorak Adviswy Committee Mr Prentice asked the Minister for Primary Industries— (1) What is the Toorak Advisory Committee? (2) Who are the members of this committee? (3) How many times has it met during the last twelve months? (4) When did it last meet? (5) How are its operations funded? (6) To whom does it report?

Answer:— (1) The Toorak Advisory Committee of producer and departmental representatives was established many years ago to review and to advise me on the development of "Toorak" Sheep Field Research Station, Julia Creek, the sheep production research programs conducted on the station and the methods of disseminati(m of the information resulting from the programs to the sheep mdustry, Mr Katter: It does a damned good job, too, Mr AHERN: As the honourable member for Flinders said, it does a good job.

Answer (contd)— (2) There are four sheep producers representing, the Graziers Association of Central and Northern Queensland and four senior ofiicers of my department from the Divisions of Animal Industry and Plant Industry, Officers of the Australian Wool Corporation, Australian Meat Research Committee and the Division of Animal Production and Tropical Animal Science of CSIRO are invited as observers. Questions Upon Notice 23 November 1982 2545

(3) Once, (4) On 7 September 1982, (5) As an advisory committee, it does not handle finance. The producer members travel to the meetings at their own expense but are accommodated on the station for the duration of the meetings. The travel costs of departmental staff who have to travel to "Toorak" for meetings are met from departmental funds, (6) The committee reports to me through the permanent head of my department,

15, Auctioneers and Agents Committee Mr Scassola asked the Minister for Justice and Attorney-General— (1) What are the functions of the Auctioneers and Agents Committee? (2) Who are the members of the committee? (3) Are the members of the committee entitled to salary or aUowances and, if so, what is the salary or aUowance payable to each member? (4) What was the total income from whatever source and the total expenditure for 1981-82? (5) When did the committee last meet? (6) What is the Government's contingent UabUity, if any, in respect

Answer:— (1) The functions of the Auctioneers and Agents Committee are— (a) to consider applications for real estate agents', auctioneers', motor dealers' and commercial subagents' Ucences and appUcations for certificates of registration for salesmen and subagents and to grant or refuse such applications; (b) io inquire into any allegations of professional misconduct by a Ucensee; (c) pursuant to any complaint or charge made to it, to summon any Ucensee to show cause why either his own licence or that of an employee should not be canceUed; (d) to determine claims against the Auctioneers and Agents Fidelity Guarantee Fund; and (e) to appoint receivers to a licensee's trust account in the circumstances provided for under the Auctioneers and Agents Aot 1971-1981. m- Mr L. J. Vann, Chairman; Mr A. Overett, Deputy Chairman; Members:— Mr B. Blocksidge; * Mr I. Selvage; Mr G, McPherson; The Registrar of Auctioneers and Agents (ex-officio member), (3) The members of the committee, other than the registrar are, under regulation 13 of the Act, entitled to fees for attending meetings. These fees are based on fees approved for the chairman and members of various boards and committees. The current rates for the chairman are:— For a meeting of two hours or less—$39.50; for a meeting which exceeds two hours, but does not exceed four hours— $59.00; and . . for a meeting which exceeds four hours—$79,(J0, The rates applicable to members other than the chairman are:— For a meeting of two hours or less—$27,00; 2546 23 November 1982 Ouestiohs iTpon Notice

for a meeting which exceeds two hours but does not exceed four hours— $39,50; and for a meeting which exceeds four hours—$52,50, (4) In 1981-82 the committee received $1,385,254 in respect of licence fees, which amount was paid into consoUdated revenue. Necessary expenditure was met from consoUdated revenue, but as the registry was then part of the Corporate Affairs Office, the precise amount is not readily available. In addition, the income of the FideUty Guarantee Fund, which is administered by the comnuttee, amounted to $6,964,939 and expenditure from the fund amounted to $361,558, Licensees are also required to deposit with the registrar portion of the moneys held in their trust account, and the interest on such moneys is payable to the fund, The amount of such interest ds included in the figure of $6,964,^39 previously mentioned, (5) TTie committee last met on 18 November 1^82, (6) The committee is a body corporate capable of suing and being sued. Damages or cOsts against the committee arising from actions other than claims against the Auctioneers and Agents FideUty Guarantee Fund are payable from consolidated revenue. Costs of expenses associated with claims against the FideUty Guarantee Fund are payable from that fund, ' (7 & 8) Although the committee is not required to report under the provisions of the Act, it does, nevertheless, furnish me with an annual report. The last return furnished was for the financial year 1980-81 and the report for the year 1981-82 is now in the course of preparation. Ii Crown Land Auction, Point Lookout Mr Scassola asked the Minister for Lands and Forestry— With reference to the answer given to a question which I asked on 11 November in which he stated that the next sale of Crown allotments at Point Lookout wiU be held on 15 January 1983— (1) What wiU be the terms and conditions applicable to that auction? (2) In what particulars do those terms and conditions differ from those applicable to the auctioil of Crown allotments held on 20 June 1981? Answer:— (1) The sale of such allotments shaU be for cash payable at the time of the sale or upon terms by paying immediately a deposit of one-fifth of the purchasing price and to pay the balance of the purchasing price in five equal annual instalmehts to include principal and interest at 15 per centum per annum on the balance of the purchase mOiiey remaining ijnpaid, (2) The sale of 20 June 1981 was made for cash or upon terms by paying a deposit of one-tenth of the purchasing price and the balance in ten equal annual instalments to include principal and interest at the rate of 8 per centuni per annum.

Its Effect on Queensland of New South Wales Government Fuel Tax Mr Scassola asked the Deputy Premier and Treasurer— With reference to the massive increases in taxes and charges imposed by the Wran Labor Government in New South Wales and, in particular, the savage imposition of a fuel tax which is as high as five cents per Utre for diesel fuel- As many commodities available for purchase in Queensland are manufactured in New South Wales, what has been, or WiU be, the effect of the imposition of such taxes in New South Wales on the people of Queensland and, in particular, on the consumer price indices in Queensland? Answer:—. The effect of a tax on motor vehicle fuel in other parts of AustraUa must find its way into our cost of living structure in Queensland at least to a certain extent. The New South Wales tax on fuel, for example, must affect the cost of transport of many goods from New South Wales to Queensland and this must have the effect ot increasing certain costs that must be met by Queensland residents. Questions Upon Notice 23 November 1982 2547

Despite the comparatively sound economy prevaiUng here in Queensland flowing directly from the good management of the State and its finances, it is regrettable that because of our proximity to New South Wales we cannot shield ourselves com­ pletely from the effects of the mismanagement and higher taxes of that State.

It On/Off Ramps, Dohles Rocks Road/Bald Hills Bypass Mr Kruger asked the Minister for Local Government, Main Roads and PoUce— With reference to correspondence that he has received offering certain financial assistance to construct the on-off ramps at the Dohles Rocks Road/Bald Hills bypass^ Is the offer to be accepted and, if so, when wUl the ramps be constructed?

Answer:— The offer that was made was on the condition that approval be given to development on the adjacent land and access be given to this development from the ramps. This would introduce hazardous traffic conditions on these ramps and the offer was therefore refused.

11 Petrie/Kallangur Bypass Mr Kruger asked the Minister for Local Government, Main Roads and PoUce— WUh reference to a request for consideration of a Petrie/KaUangur bypass to overcome the traffic congestion in those towns— Is any further information available at this stage as to the possible construction of a bypass? Answer:— Various alternatives to relieve congestion , in these towns are under consideration but no decision has been made.

20 Introduction into Queensland of Nile Perch Mr Row asked the Minister for Primary Industries— What is the present situation concerning a proposal to introduce the internationally recognised table fish, Nile pei;ph, to Queensland in order to supplement freshwater sport fishing potential and table supplies of fresh fish? Answer:- Facilities for holding Nile perch under quarantine condhions are presently being developed at the Department of : Primary Industries Freshwater Fish Hatchery at Walkamin. Tenders for the larger holding ponds are to be caUed shortly. Discussions have taken place with Commonwealth health officials with regard to quarantine requirements and precautions to be taken to prevent importation of undesirable fish diseases. Mr N. Haysom, Deputy Director (Fisheries) of the Division of Dairying and l^jshenes, is presently m Africa investigating sources of supply and arranging testing programmes to ensure that disease-free stock are obtained. The timetable for the importation of NUe perch wiU depend on the outcome of Mr Haysom's investigations and the completion of facilities at Walkamin, «,r„rlU^". *«%^^"^ P^^''^ ^"^ ^'® ^"^^ imported they wiU be held under high secunty at Walkamin to allow research to be undertaken into the effects' of the mroduction of these fish into Queensland streams. This evaluation will necessarily this^worT ^^^"' ^ "^"^ biologist and assistant have been appointed to undertake

21. RaUmotor Tours, Brisbane-North Queensland Mr Row asked the Minister for Transport— frrvm^'^^V^'"^'^'^'* ^^'** ^°'" ^^^ duplication of the existing summer railmotor tours "om Bnsbane to North Queensland? " " 2548 23 November 1982 Questions Upon Notice

Answer:— Arrangements have been made by the Railway Department in conjunction with the Tourist and Travel Corporation to improve the daylight rail tours by operating this service from 1983 onwards with air-conditioned cars. These cars will be limited to approximately the same number of passengers as the raU cars presently convey, due to the avaUabUity of hotel accommodation in some of the towns where the passengers are accommodated overnight,

22. "Road Train" Signs Mr FitzGerald asked the Minister for Transport— . (1) Is the sign "Road Train" recognised in Queensland? (2) Is this sign recognised in the Northern Territory and Western Australia? (3) Is there a uniform code in Australia for this sign? Answer:—> (1 to 3) Road-trains are of excess dimensions and consequently operated under permit issued under the Traffic Act. The conditions of permit which are issued by the Police Department include the conditions*— "Signs bearing the words 'Road Train' to be attached to the vehicle. One (1) to the front not to be below the bumper bar height and one (1) to the rear of the unit not more than three (3) metres from the ground and clearly visible to approaching traffic. These signs may be in two (2) parts, one part bearing the word 'Road' and the other part bearing the word 'Train'. The signs referred to must consist of a yeUow reflectorised background not less than 1200 milUmetreS loii^ by 250 miUimetres wide with a legend 'Road Train' in black letters not less than 180 millimetres high, 'Road Train' signs not to be displayed when vehicle not operated as a road train," The requirement to display such signs and the specifications of the signs are in line with the Model Specifications and Permit Conditions for Road Trains which were compiled by the National Association of AustraUan State Road Authorities and endorsed by the AustraUan Transport Advisory Council,

23, Crime Statistics, Corinda and Oxley Mr Innes asked the Minister for Lqcal Goyernment, Main Roads and Police— WUh reference to a feature article in "The Courier-Mail" of 13 November in which it was prominently stated that police pointed to the suburb of Corinda, as well as Inala, Woodridge and Acacia Ridge as suburbs with traditionally high crime rates and which shows a map in which both Oxley and Corinda are pinpointed as focal points of crime— (1) Do police statistics indicate any support for these references to Corinda and Oxley as places with an abnormally high incidence of crime? (2) What is the pattern of any available statistics for these two areas for the last five years and how does that relate to the population in the suburbs in that period? "" (3) What is the boundary of the Sherwood Police District and what is the pattern of crime incidence in that district for the last five years? (4) Apart from statistics, how are the suburbs of Corinda and Oxley. regarded by experienced poUce who know the area from the point of view of lawlessness? Answer:— (1 to 3) For police statistical purposes the crime figures for the greater portiwi of Corinda are included within the Sherwood PoUce Division, Other suburbs included in this division are Chelmer, Graceville and Sherwood', The remaining portion of Corinda lies within the Oxley Police Division, Questions Without Notice 23 November 1982 2549

Over the five year period, the crime rate in the Sherwood Police Division has declined from 470 reported offences in the 1977-78 year to 376 offences for the year ended 30 June 1982. This represents an overall decrease of 20 per cent. The State crime growth rate over the same five year period was 43 per cent. The Sherwood division recorded a slight increase of 2 per cent in reported offences for the 1981-82 year compared with the previous year. The following is a table indicating the pattern of reported crime in the Sherwood and Oxley Police Divisions over the past five years.

1981-82 1980-81 1979-80 1978-79 1977-78

Oxley .. 1641 1585 1359 1 025 922 Sherwood 376 368 327 416 470

(4) These statistics show the true position in relation to crime in the Oxley and Sherwood Police Divisions.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Korean Investment in Ord River Sugar Scheme Mr WRIGHT: I ask the Premier: During his visit to South Korea was he, or the Deputy Premier and Treasurer (Dr Edwards), aware of that country's plan to invest in a $200m sugar scheme on the Ord River in Western Australia? Did any South Korean GovCTnment official or private enterprise representative advise him or the Deputy Premier and Treasurer of South Kojea's intensions, which now threaten Queensland's $76om sugar industry? Mr BJELKE-PETERSEN: The tour that the Deputy Premier and I undertook in South Korea was very successful. I would like to give the details to the House for the edification of Opposition members. Sugar was not discussed in the context to which the honourable member has referred. Previously, the Deputy Premier had outlined the concern of the sugar industry to one or two people in a responsible position in that country. I did that once again on this occasion. At no time did these people suggest to us that they were to become inyolved. Indeed, the impression we gained was to the contrary. Judging by the general attitude adopted when this question was raised by us and we expressed our concern about It, we did not believe that they would become involved. A Government Member: It is a long way off yet. Mr BJELKE-PETERSEN: It is a long way off yet. In any event, nothing is proceeded With if « is not viable.

Government Policy on 10 per cent Wage Cut, Abolition of 17i per cent Loading and Week-end Penalty Rates Mr WRIGHT: I refer the Minister for Employnient and Labour Relations to media reports and, specifically, to yesterday's "Courier-Mail" and "Telegraph" newspaper reports ™ "*« P'^'nier is advocating a 10 per cent wage cut, the abolition of the 17i per cent holiday toading, as well as the aboUtion of week-end penalty rates. I now ask him: Is that Governinettf policy? If so, does the Government intend to intervene in the State Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Commission or take any other measures to reduce the wages of tens of thousands of State public servants and Crown employees in line with the Premier's propoMli? Is tiie Minister aware of the industrial havoc that such a move would cause, as weH as the economic difficulties it would place on the families of these employees? anH t^ ,^^^L^AM KNOX: As usual, the Leader of the Opposition is clutching at straws ana trymg to create things that do not exist. Any statement on Government policy will come from the Premier, That is the correct approach, Mr Davis: Do you agree? , 2550 23 November 1982 Questions Without Notice

Sir WILLIAM KNOX: Unfortunately, statements on the Opposition's policy do not come from the Leader of the Opposition, In recent times they have come from Beattie, Murphy and everybody else—from anybody but the Leader of the Opposition. Quite clearly, any statement on Government policy will always come from the Leader of the Government.

Government PoUcy on 10 per cent Wage Cut, Abolition of 17i per cent Loading and Week-end Penalty Rates Mr WRIGHT: I now put the same question to the Premier: Is it the Government's poUcy to abolish the 17^ per cent holiday loading, to remove the penalty rates on week-end employment and to have a 10 per cent wage cut for Crown employees? Is the Premier aware of the havoc that that would cause to approximately 70000 families of Crown employees in Queensland?

Mr BJELKE-PETERSEN: The Leader of the Opposition is a very new chum in his present position. He says that he wiU do away with superannuation benefits for the wives of his colleagues and pubUc servants when they pass away. He is going to do many wonderful things! I suggest to him that if he wants to be genuine, he should do as I have done and say, "I will give all my superannuation to the poor." He should come out and be decent about it right now. He should not let the wives and families suffer. I spoke generally about some of the things that are making it very difficuU for AustraUa to compete on overseas markets. I mentioned the fact that our wages are high compared with those in other countries, I said that if they were lowered, it would make it easier for us to obtain markets, I also emphasised the fringe benefits, such as week-end penalty rates and holiday loading. All of those things make it impossible for us to sell our commodities overseas. I said that if they could be reduced or contained, we would have a much better chance of creating more jobs. I also said that if the Commonwealth Government Would freeze taxation, sales tax and the cost of CPI items, the pressure for higher prices and higher wages would be reduced. I promise the Leader of the Opposition that I will even try to look after him and some of his supporters. He can rest assured that the Deputy Premier and I wUl look after the matter very effectively and very well when we go to Canberra shortly.

: ••'• . 'J' ; " .

Federal Government's Proposed Wage Freeze Mr INNES: In directing a question to the Deputy Premier and Treasurer, I would point out that whilst he and the Premier were looking for new opportunities for Queensland in Korea and Japan last week, there was a variety of responses to the Federal Goverhment's proposed freeze on wages and opinions about the economic debate at the forthcoming Premiers Conference, I ask: Would he inform the House of his attitude towards the developments of last week in relation to this issue and towards the Federal Government's latest statement of attitude?

Dr EDWARDS: The Acting Prime Minister contacted the Premier when he was in Japan and, raised the matter of the Queensland Government's position. The Preniier and I discussed the matter fully. The, position that we made very clear to the Federal Govern­ ment was that a, wages freeze for pubUc servants in AustraUa would be just touching the tip of the iceberg and a waste of time. If we are going to deal with thp problems of the economy of AustraUa, first of all we must get confidence back into the economy. The Opposition, both at the Federal and State level, has a vested interest in the gkwrn and doom prophecy. It is about time that it joined with the Government in saying that the future has hope if people are prepared to work together as a whole for the benefit of the community, ''^' The Government mil make very clear that it does not share the view that a freeze of public servants' wages wUl do anything for the Australian economy. Theft Jias been an exacerbation of the claim for wages, which is totally unnecessary. There should be restriction and restraint shown towards wage claims throughout Australia, I am sure that the honourable member shares that view- To say that a wage freeze should apply to public servants and that the rest of the community should be aUowed to continue with its massive wage claims is irresponsible, and it is unfair to pubUc servant?.--: Questions Without Notice 23 Noyember 1982 2551

At present the Premier and I are preparing our submission. Our submission wiU be prepared along the line that we have confidence in AustraUa and in Queensland, Secondly, we believe that it is time for stimulation of the economy, not dampening down. When the Federal Government and those fellows who have messed up the economy in Victoria and New South Wales—SoUth Australia is now heading the same way—begin to realise that What are needed are Budgets fiill of Capital works programs that create employment opportunities, the nation will get somewhere. What is needed in Australia at present is a willingness on the part of leaders and people to work together so that confidence can be given to the community, Mr Kruger interjected. Dr EDWARDS: The honourable member for Murrumba would be the worst person in whom anyone could have confidence. I have no doubt that if he were in government the gloom and doom that would result not only in his electorate but throughout Queens­ land as a whole would be shattering. Now is the time to get on with stimulating the economy. Let us all work together— unions and Government; employers and employees. Let us forget about the gloom and doom. Let us ensure that the future of Australia is in our hands. We should do that instead of mucking arbund with this stupid idea of freezing wages paid to a small section of the community. Such a step would be like pouring water on a duck's back.

Statement by Member for Wolston concerning War Service of Member for Stafford Mrs NELSON: I ask the Deputy Premier and Treasurer: Is he aware of the strong community reaction against a statement made by a member of the OppoMtion in this Chamber last week, in which he cast a slur on members of the armed forces who served in Vietnam? As many members of ParUament and members of their families have served in the armed forces, wUl the Deputy Premier and Treasurer advise the House of the Government's posUion on this matter? Dr EDWARDS: I consider that the comments made by the honourable member for Wolston cast a slur not only on Vietnam veterans but also on every returned serviceman and anyone else who has worn a uniform of the armed services. Next day, the honourable member for Wolston made a half-hearted attempt to avoid the consequences of his disgusting comments. However, he must live with his words for ever. What were those words? This is what he said Mr DAVIS: I rise to a point of order. The member for Wolston is not in the House at the present time. Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point of order. Dr EDWARDS: Let me repeat what the honourable member for Wolston said. Mr BURNS: I rise to a point of order. I draw your attention to the fact that the Minister is reading an answer to a question without notice. The question will appear in "Hansard" as a question without notice. If the question is without notice, the Deputy Premier and Treasurer should not have in his hand a paper from which he wUl give the answer. If he cannot answer a question without such a paper, he should not ask his stooges to ask questions. Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point of order. * Mr UNDERWOOD: I rise to a point of order. A directive has been issued either by you, Mr Speaker, or your predecessor that "Hansard" puUs cannot be quoted in the House. Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point of order. Dr EDWARDS: I would Uke to repeat the comments of the honourable member tor Wolston, because they are an embarrassment to the honourable member for Lytton and, indeed, all other Opposition members. This is what the honourable member for Wolston said— "What about the people you slaughtered in Vietnam? Tell us about them. You are a {irofessional murderer." 2552 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Later the honourable member used the words "paid killer" The most disappointing aspect of this is the conduct of Opposition members. There was no action on the part of the Leader of the Opposition relative to this matter. What did Mr Casey, who proudly wore the uniform of his country, think? What did Mr Jones, who also proudly wore the uniform of his country, think? If Mr Casey had been Leader of the Opposition when the member for Wolston made his remarks, he would have publicly dissociated himself from those remarks. Where does the present Leader of the Opposition stand? If the comments had been made by a member of my party or of the Premier's party, the Premier and I would have made our position clear. Opposition Members interjected. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Dr EDWARDS: The conduct of OpposUion members is typical of the ALP. It wants to water down the flag. Mr Burns interjected. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The time allotted for questions has now expired: Dr EDWARDS: Members of the ALP want to water down the flag and they want to water down everything-^-— .i Opposition Members interjected. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Mr Burys interjected. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the honourable member for Lytton under the provisions of Standing Order 123A. At 12 noon, • ' ' In accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 307, the House went into Committee of Supply.

SUPPLY Resumption of Committee—^Estimates—^Thirteenth and Fourteenth Allotted Days The Chairman of Committees (Mr Miller, Ithaca) in the chak Estimates-in Chief, 1982-83 Welfare Services Chief Office, Department of Welfare Services Hon. T. A. WHITE (RedcUffe—Minister for Welfare Services) (12.1 p.m.)-.I move- "That $5,784,600 be granted for 'Department of Welfare Services—Chief Office'." In June 1972, just over 10 years ago, a Department of Tourism, Sport and Welfare Services was established. A decade later, the department has become the Department of Welfare Services and provides invaluable assistance and protection to our community. The past 10 years have seen a number of changes in the respwisibUities of the department. Tourism and Sport now fall under the responsibility of my cdteague the Minister for Tourism, National Parks, Sport and The Arts, However, the decade has seen the addition of a number of responsibilities: Probation and Par

Disabled Persons Service The Chief Office incorporates the newly developed Disabled Persons Service. This service was established to ensure the continuation of the advances made during the International Year of Disabled Persons last year. Four major services are offered. The first is an information and referral service allowing disabled people and their famUies to obtain information from a central point about services and support groups for them. This service can be obtained from anywhere in the State at the cost of a local telephone call. The service wiU also provide Uaison and advocacy on behalf of the disabled, their tamilies and their representative organisations. This represents a major community input to the poUcy process, A third function of the service is the provision of a consumer resource centre. Consumer groups wiU be able to use equipment such as a photocopier, uplicator, collator and typewriter. Assistance is also provided for telephone and postage, the many smaUer groups representing or helping the disabled indicated that this resource centre would be of great assistance. In some cases it has been necessary for their survival 51592-86 2554 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

The fourth service is co-ordination, which includes provision of secretarial support to umbrella organisations, production of a newsletter and so on. The aim is to bring greater unity to the field of social services for the disabled.

Grants, subsidies and endowments The Chief Office administers a number of schemes providing grants, subsidies, and endowments to organisations for approved projects. Last year, a total of $2,612,847 was distributed by way of grants and subsidies to 274 organisations, These schemes are a major contribution to the young people of this State.

Relief Assistance Branch A further service coming under the Chief Office is that provided by the Relief Assistance Branch, This branch pays emergency relief to a number of people who are temporarily destitute, covers the cost of beds and meals for emergency shelter and admirasters a free rail travel scheme. Emergency relief payments are also made through the Department of Children's Services and will be discussed later. During the year, the Department of Children's Services assumed responsibility for the receipt of applications for rail travel in country areas. Previously, this was done by district industrial inspectors. In areas not covered by the Department of Children's Services, the PoUce Department and the Clerks of the Court take applications. Earlier, I spoke to the Chairman of Committees and obtained his permission to have incorporated in "Hansard" a number of tables and lists. Included is a list of offices through which members of the pubUc may apply for free raU passes, and I seek leave of the Committee to have the Ust incorporated in "Hansard" (Leave granted.)

Department of ChUdren's Services Aitkenvale Innisfail Rockhampton Ipswich Southport Cairns Mackay Toowoomba Dysart Maryboroiigh TownsviUe Gympie Mount Isa Roma Qerks of the Court Aramac Goomeri Millmerran AugatheUa Goondiwindi Pomona Babinda Gordonvale Proserpine Barcaldine Herberton Quilpie Beaudesert Home HiU Ravenshoe Biloela Hughenden Richmond BlackaU Ingham Roma Blackwater Inglewood Rosewood Bowen JuUa Creek Sarina Caboolture Jundah Scarness Caloundra Kilcoy Springsure Charleville Kingaroy Stanthorpe Laidley St George Childers Landsborough St Lawrence Clermont Longreach Tambo Qeveland Maroochydore Tara Cloncurry Miles Thursday Island (CoUinsviUe MitcheU Tully Cooktown Monto Windorah Crows Nest Mount Morgan Winton Cunnamuila Moura Wondai Dalby Mundubbera Wowan Emerald Murgon Wynnum Nambour Yarraman Gatton Yelarbon Georgetown Petrie Yeppoon Gin Gin Pittsworth Yuleba Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2555

Officers in Charge (Police Stations) y^yj Eumundi Miriam Vale Adavale Forest HiU Mossman Alpha Gladstone Muttaburra Atherton Halifax Mount Larcom Biggenden Hughenden Mount MoUoy Calen Injune Oakey Calliope Isisford CardweU Jericho Proston CharievUle Kilcoy Tewantin ChinchiUa Kilkivan Texas Coen Longreach Toogoolawah Cooroy Malanda Warra Dimbulah Many Peaks Warwick Eidsvold Mareeba Woodford Mr MUlaa MUlaa Yungaburra

Mr WHITE: I give my thanks to my colleagues the Minister for Justice, the Minister for Police and the Minister for Employment and Labour Relations for their continuing support of this scheme over the past year. In particular, thanks must go to the district industrial inspectors for their past service. Special thanks must, of course, go to the Railway Department, which bears the cost of the journeys, and to my coUeague the Minister for Transport.

Library The library in the Department of Welfare Services is a great source of pride. In the last seven years it has developed a comprehensive collection in the specialised areas of interest to the officers of my department. The front-line officers are the largest user-group. The services provided by the library are often vital in their planning of intervention strategies, and it is certainly essential for them to keep abreast of developments in their fields. The library adviser. Miss Gloria Huish, and her staff provide this valuable research and reference service to aU areas of the department, to other areas of the Public Service, and, indeed, to members of the public seeking the specialised information in this unique collection. Miss Huish has indicated her intention to retire in the new year, and although I shall be sad to lose her services, as vrill my officers, I take this opportunity to wish her, albeit early, a happy and fruitful retirement.

Division of Youth Affairs Cabinet has given approval for the estabUshment of a new Division of Youth Affairs within the department, similar to that set up in the Commonwealth sphere. PreUminary work has been carried out in the formation of the new section, which wiU move into top gear early in the new year following the appointment of a Director of Youth Affairs, The major initial charter of the new director and the division will be the development, in consultation with relevant bodies and society as a whole, of a comprehensive youth policy for Queensland and I anticipate tabling a White Paper in Parliament during 1983 on this matter. The division wiU incorporate six youth-related programs from various sections of the portfolio catering for both advantaged and disadvantaged young people. The programs are the Youth Services Scheme, the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme, the Youth Council of Queensland, the Youth Employment Support Scheme and the Youth Leadership Scheme. The Duke of Edinburgh's Award Scheme has been a major promoter of skills and leadership among young people since its inception in Queensland in 1962. Last year, 2 069 young men and women between 14 and 21 years of age participated. A total of 198 awards were made, including nine bronze awards to deaf students. Honourable members wil know that His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh himself recently presented the gold awards. It is with sadness that I note the passing of two long-term members of the State Award Committee. Mrs Dorothy Davidson died after a long illness, and Sir Douglas Tooth, who had been chairman since 1976, died in July, Sir Douglas was the former member for Ashgrove and was first elected to Pariiament in 1957, He served as Minister for Health for more than 10 years until his retirement in 1974, making him the longest serving Minister or Health in the Queensland Government, to my knowledge. 2556 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

The Division of Youth Affairs wiU also Uaise with the Youth Affairs Council of Queensland, The councU is undergoing re-organisation throughout the State and is examin­ ing models for a more regionaUy based operation. The Youth Leadership Schools will continue this year, and an increase of over 40 per cent wiU ensure that funds are available for three schools. The Youth Leadership Awards Scheme wiU continue, and come under this division, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the award committee who over the past years have provided valuable service,

Queensland Industrial Institution for the BUnd The Queensland Industrial Institution for the Blind celebrates its centenary next year. Over the past years, the QIIB has provided a long and valuable service to visually impaired individuals. This service has been in the form of employment in either an open or a sheltered workshop, low cost aids such as white canes, braiUe paper and other equipment, and a talking book library. This Government is greatly concerned to provide assistance and opportunities to the visually impaired and to promote a broader awareness of their problems and needs. Part of that awareness program is provided by the Visually Impaired Persons Program within the Disabled Persons Service, and by publications such as the extensive study on the impact of visual impairment on elderly people in Brisbane published by my department late last year. I recently commissioned a study of the services and role of the QIIB and other bodies concerned with the visuaUy impaired in my department. The report recommends improving the faciUties avaUable and extending the employment opportunities for the blind, I hope to announce a number of major initiatives in the near future when my officers and the Advisory Committee for the Blind have completed their examination of these recommendations,

Queensland Recreation Council As of 1 July this year, the National Fitness CouncU for Sport and Physical Recreation was replaced by a new Queensland Recreation Council, This step was taken to ensure the development of the widest possible range of recreation activities in Queensland, To ensure that the council was not diverted from this major task, certain functions have been vested in other Government bodies. The AustraUan Sports Medicine Foundation now comes vrithin the responsibUities of my coUeague the Minister for Health, Other aspects were dealt with previously. The new council has been appointed with eight members, but a maximum of 12 may be appointed by the Governor in Council, A marketing officer has been appointed to provide greater distribution of information concerning the services available, and to encourage a higher level of recreation pursuits and fitness in the community. The Queensland Recreation Council maintains Australia's largest network of Govern­ ment-sponsored recreation camps. The 12 camps have a total capacity of 1700 beds, and last financial year recorded a record 212 069 camper days, an increase of approximately 7i per cent over the previous year's occupancy rate. The council consists of the eight members appointed by the Governor in Council, a number of full-time and part-time wages employees, and a large network of voluntary workers who are organised through the 21 area recreation committees. This aUows the councU's influence to be widely felt and facUitates the development of a strong partnership between the Government and community interests. The area committees are the greatest source of the continuing development of recreation services and activities, and I take this opportunity to thank those citizens who have taken the time and made the effort to contribute to the committees in a selfless, public-spirited way. There were two achievements of particular note in the last financial year. One, a book called "1363 Ways to Visit Queensland", was prepared by National Fitness staff and is selling particularly well. The second was a major initiative in the form of a film called "Break Down the Barriers" This film is a documentary on recreation for handicapped people, made in Queensland and aimed primarily at Queenslanders, The fihn has attracted world-wide acclaim, and copies have been sold in the United Kingdom, Europe, Canada and the USA, The film is also being shown to delegates to the current UNESCO Symposium Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2557 on Physical Education and Sport at the University of Maryland, Recreation for the handi­ capped continues to be a major interest of the council, which has a committee of speciaUsts continually working in the area, I would like to place on record my thanks to Dr Paul Hopkins, who heads that committee. The FREEPS program, a part of the "Life, Be in it" concept, encourages Free Recreation and Entertainment for Everyone in Parks and has proven highly successful, especially in Brisbane and Toowoomba, I would urge all honourable members to investi­ gate this concept with a view to encouraging the local authorities in their electorates to participate. The "Life, Be in it" Company, with sponsorship from Voca Phone Answering Systems, now operates a "Life, Be in it" activities line. This recorded telephone service provides a comprehensive register of community recreational and leisure activities and contracts ranging from FREEPS, to sporting events and school holiday camps for children. Last year was a highly successful year for the councU, and with its new look and responsibUities, it vrill, I am sure, provide valuable, modern recreation services to the people of Queensland. To members of the former National Fitness CouncU, I extend my thanks, especially to Mr Arch Guymer, who served as its chairman for more than 10 years untU his resignation in December last year. His dedicated service and leadership helped shape the new council, and he will be remembered fondly for many years.

Division of Migrant Services The Division of Migrant Services, which became part of this portfolio in December 1980, provides a range of services to migrants in Queensland, These include assisting employers or individuals nominating or sponsoring migrants, meeting settlers on arrival and, if necessary, providing inital accommodation and assistance. The division has responded to the growing awareness of Queensland's multicultural society with a number of initiatives, A liaison officer has been appointed to maintain close contact with ethnic associations, groups and individuals, A Migrant Advisory Com­ mittee has been appointed to provide advice on matters affecting ethnic groups, and a Translating and Interpreting Unit has been established. The unit provides specialised translating, interpreting and counselling services in 14 languages. This service was previously provided by the Good Neighbour Council, which was subsidised by the State Government, and the division was fortunate in being able to retain the officers previously employed by the council. The division's administration is being upgraded with the appointment of a director to oversee the affairs of the division, A national advertising campaign was mounted to ensure the best candidates possible would be found. The allocation for the division represents an increase of some $300,000 over that for 1981-82. This is mostly for the enhanced Translating and Interpreting Unit, with its four additional staff. Corrective Programs Corrective programs are provided by both the Prisons Department and the Probation and Parole Service, Some important initiatives have taken place over the past 12 months and are continuing now. These include the development of a number of mechanisms and structures which wiU allow Queensland's corrective services to meet the chaUenges of tte future without diverting huge amounts of pubUc money away from other vital Government services. Before discussing these developments, I seek leave to have the written goals and objectives of Prisons and Probation and Parole incorporated in "Hansard", (Leave granted.) A, Purpose (The Prison Department's reason for existing) The secure confinement of prisoners as determined by sentencing jurisdictions as a punishment for offenders and as protection for society.

B. Goals (What the Prisons Department is aiming to achieve) Organizational Provision of an effective and humane security system. Good management throughout the Department. 2558 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

A flexible and effective administrative system. Provision of a good public relations cUmate. Provision of a good industrial relations cUmate. Ongoing modernization of buildings and equipment. Recruitment and promotion of the most suitable personnel. Ongoing provision of appropriate staff training and development activkies. Custodial Appropriate classification, and assessment of sentenced prisoners. Provision of employment and recreational activities. Provision of— (a) Acceptable living conditions for prisoners. *(b) Welfare facilities for prisoners and their famiUes. *(c) Educational facUities for prisoners. Provision of an environment which lessens the likelihood of criminal activities upon release. Provision of an environment which wiU preserve the personaUty and prevent the deterioration of prisoners. •Footnote: Welfare— Includes Access to spiritual counseUors. Access to family and friends through visits and correspondence. Access to medical, dental and psychological facUities, Access to counselling faciUties, •< Assistance to live within the prison environment. Assistance to reassimilate into society. Education— Includes Access to formal educational facUities (remedial through to tertiary). Access to training in trade or work skiUs. Access to training in social and living skills. Development of creative skUls, interests and community activities.

Probation and Parole Service The primary objective of probation and parole is the furthering of justice through the provision of penal measures which afford protection to society through the control and rehabiUtation of offenders within the community. The distinct functions of the Probation and Parole Service in meeting this objective are as foUows:— (i) Advice to Courts by way of pre-sentence reports; (U) Supervision of offenders admitted to probation; (iii) Court action in relation to probationers whose behaviour is unsatisfactory; (iv) Preparation of reports for the guidance of the Parole Board; (v) Supervision of prisoners released by the Parole Board; (vi) Initiation of action for the suspension or cancellation of parole; (vii) Liaison with other organisations having related functions; and (vUi) Referral (rf offenders vrith special needs to appropriate community agencies,

Mr WHITE: Corrective systems throughout the world are the subject of great contro­ versy. This is basicaUy because there are many opinions within society concerning the treatment of those who offend against the laws of society. Governments and administrators everywhere come under severe pressure from groups whose views are in copflict. On the one hand are the people who want the prison system aboUshed entirely and want offenders dealt with totally in a community-based system. On the other hand there are those who advocate a return to capital punishment and the implementation of longer, harsher prison terms for all classes of offenders. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2559

It is the courts which are responsible for deciding the punishment an offender should incur. In some instances, the punishment is deprivation of liberty for a period spent in prison. However, the law provides the courts with a range of options including probation, community service orders, bonds, fines and so on. The job of the corrective services is to carry out the orders of the court. In Queensland, it is our basic premise that an offender should complete his or her sentence at least no worse off than before that term. More importantly, we strive to equip an offender with the necessary skUls for a law-abiding role in society. Of direct relevance to Queensland's corrective system is the trend for members of the judiciary to use the wide range of options open to them. In 1973, 80 per cent of those sentenced by the courts were admitted to prison. The remaining 20 per cent were in community- based corrective services. Now, 10 years later, 56 per cent are sent to prison and 44 per cent are in community-based corrections. There has been a dramatic change, I seek leave to have the full details incorporated in "Hansard" so that the honourable members may see this trend for themselves in detail. (Leave granted.)

Percentage of Offenders Admitted to Prisons, Probation and Parole and Community Service Orders (row percentages*)

Year ending cs.o, June 30th Prisons Probation Parole commenced Total 1981

1973 80 17 3 — (4 216) (899) (135) 5 250 1974 75 21 3 — (3 289) (931) (150) 4 370 1975 72 24 — (3 288) (1 096) (159) 4 543 Ifli ... 72 23 5 — (3371) (1106) (232) 4 709 W! *r 70 26 4 — (3 479) (1 287) (224) 4 990 ISS8 .. 69 27 4 . — (3 257) (1 286) (200) 4 743 IS^ :i.i 66 30 4 — (3 424) (1 534) (212) 5 170 im ., 70 26 4 — (3 727) (1 398) (188) 5 313 1981 69 26 4 2 (3 987) (1 478) (205) (97) 5 767 iw *. 56 29 3 11 (3 875) (2 043) (237) (784) 6 939

*As figures have been rounded to the nearest whole number, row percentages do not always total 100 per cent, Mr WHITE: These figures clearly show that the judiciary has moved strongly towards community-based social control mechanisms in lieu of imprisonment. Just as important is the length of sentence. Eighty-six per cent of persons sentenced 'to imprisonment are serving sentences of 12 months or less. This figure has been constant tor many years. I seek leave to have this table also incorporated in "Hansard" (Leave granted.) 2560 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Percentage of Offenders Admitted to Prison by Sentence (row percentages*)

6 months 1 year but 5 years but Life and Year ending less than but less than less than 5 less than 10 10 years and Indefinite Total June 30th 6 months 1 year years years over

1973 • 77 9 11 2 -3 -2 (3 268) (380) (476) (68) , (13) (11) 4216 1974 • • 78 10 10 •2 -4 (2 555) (339) (324) (49) (8) (14) 3 289 1975 68 17 11 2 •6 -2 (2 240) (575) (370) (74) (21) (8) 3 288 1976 • 73 10 13 3 •5 •3 (2 472) (339) (439) (94) (16) (11) 3 371 1977 • 72 13 12 2 -2 •2 (2 500) (463) (419) (79) (9) (9) 3479 1978 • 71 13 13 2 •4 •3 (2 310) (438) (428) (60) (12) (9) 3 257 1979 71 13 13 2 •4 -3 (2 444) (438) (450) (69) (13) (9) 3 423 1980 • -- 72 14 12 1 •3 •3 (2 674) (513) (461) (55) (12) (12) 3 727 1981 -• 74 12 12 2 •5 •2 (2940) (460) (485) (75) (20) (7) 3 987 1982 •• 73 13 11 2 •3 •3 (2 848) (495) (434) (75) (11) (12) 3 875 •As figures have been rounded to the nearest whole number, row percentages do not always total 100 per cent, Mr WHITE: This shift to community based social control mechanisms shown in these tables has its basis in a number of factors. First, it is very difficuh to guide a person towards a law-abiding life-style while he or she is securely contained behind prison walls. Second, the courts and society both recognise the need for individuals to preserve social and family ties. An offender serving an order in the community is able to Uve at home with his or her famUy, and to maintain employment but with the opportunity for rehabilitation under controlled supervision. Third, economics. The cost of imprisoning one individual is roughly $16,000 for each year in prison. Adding lost wages of, say, $12,000 and social security payments to dependents of about $5,000, the total cost is $33,000 per prisoner per year in direct costs and lost wages. The cost of community-based corrections is about $530 per year per order. Irrespective of the extent and variety of community-based systems for offenders, there wiU always be a requirement for some offenders to be separated from society. The question is, "How should these offenders be treated?" As I indicated, this is a value-laden question, and a divisive issue. But regardless of the rhetoric about the treatment of prisoners, the cold, hard facts are that virtually every prisoner goes back to society and that nearly nine out of every 10 returns to society after less than 12 months. The prison system must, obviously, attempt to equip offenders with the skUls and abiUties they wiU need once their terms are over and they are back in society. There is little argument in the community that prisons have an obligation to function as more than a storehouse. Offenders who are merely left to serve out a term of imprisonment mindlessly wiU not learn how to function in society. There could even be a deleterious effect. Given that most offenders are released to the community in less than 12 months, or actually serve their punishment in the community, there is a strong need for programs specially designed to meet the specific needs of individuals. In the prison context this requires, firstly, professional assessment of each and every prisoner, to estabUsh his or her neeOB and to ensure placement in the most appropriate program. Secondly, a highly trained and motivated work-force of prison officers is needed. Thirdly, there must be flexibihty in program design and implementation to meet the assessed needs. Although no prison system in AustraUa has fully implemented these three components, Queensland's corrective programs are moving that way. We are not rushing, since tha SoKily (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2561 would result in ad hoc or fragmented implementation. We need careful planning and direction to avoid the pitfalls recently experienced in New South Wales, I have instituted a poUcy committee, which has the tasks of providing that planning and direction and reporting to the Minister concerning the steps needed to achieve change. This committee represents a major development in the strategy for planning of Queensland's corrective programs. The committee will provide cohesive directions for development and change, and draws the two arms of Queensland's corrective services into even closer co-operation than before. While the policy committee provides developmental change, the Prisons Department continues to offer a wide range of programs and services for prisoners. These include farm and trade work, education, recreation, release to work, welfare and others. These programs provide the kernel of the flexible, programmatic approach I alluded to earlier. Staff Development Enhancement of programs for prisoners must have parallel staff development for prison officers, who have a very demanding role. It is essential that the department provides the utmost developmental assistance to them, A number of bold initiatives have already been planned for Queensland prison officers. Scholarships will be granted to custodial officers on both a full-time and part-time basis. The scholarships will allow selected officers to attend tertiary and technical institutions fuU time to upgrade their skills and qualifications. In addition, part-time scholarships wiU be granted to interested officers to attend courses in prison management skills. Plans are under way to conduct these courses in Brisbane, and the Comptroller-General of Prisons will hold discussions in the near future with the staff of the tertiary institutions in Rockhampton and Townsville. Staff development should be available on a Statewide basis. Another thrust of the staff development program is the extension of the regular seminars now being conducted. The topics for seminars are selected for their relevance to prison management. The ComptroUer-General is to hold discussions with superintendents from Wacol, Woodford and Rockhampton prisons to consider how this model of staff development can be introduced into their prisons. There is now a large number of applicants for positions as prison officers and the recruitment is to be more selective. The induction program for new prison officers is to be restructured to include on-the-job training as weU as more appropriate skills, AU these measures have been designed for implementation early in 1983, Further initiatives wiU be required in the long term, and these are receiving active consideration by the policy commUtee, Combined with the flexible programmatic approach, a better-trained staff wiU be more able to meet the needs of individuals in the prison system. Special programs are also being developed for groups with special needs or problems. These include the educationally disadvantaged, those from poor family backgrounds, and those with special needs arising out of cuhural or racial factors. Another vhal program in providing an integrated correctional service is a move I have instituted to have the poUcy committee consider the establishment of assessment and parole units in the prisons. These units wiU be staffed by professionally quaUfied officers. Each unit's staff wiU work with experienced prison officers to thoroughly assess the needs of individual prisoners as they enter the system. The assessment will continue throughout the term of an individual's inlprisonment, enabUng a prisoner's needs to be tailored to a particular program. With the assistance of the staff from the assessment and parole units, prisoners will be able to prepare a viable parole plan. The units wiU be able to inform the Parole Board of the efforts the prisoner has made to improve his or her chances of successful reintegration into the community. The professional staff of the units wUl also provide pre-release counselling to further improve the prisoner's prospects. The Probation and Parole Service has for many years provided pre-sentence reports to the courts. In the last year alone, this service to the courts has doubled. More and more, members of the judiciary are asking for details of the community situation of offenders to assist them in making the most appropriate decision. To illustrate the remarkable nature of this trend, and to demonstrate the professionaUsm of the Probation and Parole Service, I seek leave to have incorporated in "Hansard" a table showing the trend. (Leave granted.) 2562 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Numbers of Reports Prepared by Probation and Parole Officers

Parole Community Year ending Pre-sentence Applicant Service Others* Total 30th June Report Report Order

1973 , , 98 N/P — N/P 98 1974 , 102 27 — N/P 129 1975 , 171 51 — N/P 222 1976 , 163 70 — N/P 233 1977 , , 124 90 — N/P 214 1978 , , 165 138 — 111 414 1979 , , 209 176 — 43 428 1980 . 234 216 — 31 481 1981 . . 247 155 N/P 81 483 1982 . . 504 152 N/P 54 710

* Interstate, Immigration and Ethnic Affairs and Attorney-General N/P Not provided Mr WHITE: A wide range of more traditional and tangible advances have been made in the corrective services of Queensland as well as these programmatic and developmental changes. Progressive upgrading or replacement of older prison accommodation continues. Queensland now has, arguably, the best accommodation for prisoners in Australia. Last financial year saw the opening of Stage I of the new, modern Women's Prison with subsequent stages continuing. The Release to Work Hostel in Brisbane has been in operation for 12 months now and is proving to be a great success. Other developments include improvements at the State farms, and further work on the building programs for Rock­ hampton, Townsville and Brisbane Prisons. Honourable members will be aware of recent criticism concerning the Remand Section of the Brisbane Prison complex, I am aware of the inadequacies of the Remand Section and, Uke aU honourable members, I am keen to improve the accommodation and find a solution. One solution would be to buUd a new remand prison, costing many millions of taxpayers' dollars. But this money may not need to be outlaid. The shift to community corrections, which I pointed out earlier, has stabilised the prison population and has allowed, indeed necessitated, a reassessment of the Prison Department's capital works priorities. It may be possible to save miUions of dollars by more effective allocation of prisoners, freeing space for a remand prison, A range of options to achieve this is currently being explored by my officers and technical officers of the Works Department, I shaU be in a position to announce a decision in the near future. The prison system must be efficient, and, to ensure this, consultants have been called in to examine a number of aspects, including laundering and officer rostering. The overtime bill for the Prisons Department has been drastically reduced following implementation of new procedures. At the same time, the safe containment record of Queensland's prison system remains one of the best in the world.

Community Service Orders Last financial year saw the first fuU year of operation of the community service orders scheme. Under this scheme a court may sentence an offender to between 40 and 240 hours of community service. In the year ended 30 June, 784 such orders were made requiring approximately 90 000 hours of service. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2563

A good example of the type of project offenders work on under such orders is the Ithaca Creek beautification project, which recently won a "Courier-MaU" "Shine on Brisbane" award. This project is of particular interest to you, Mr MiUer. Ten offenders served at least part of their court orders by beautifying the Ithaca Creek area. The project was led by Mr Henk Horchner of the Bardon Lions Club, and has been nominated as one of the top 10 community service order projects in the world. Inquiries have come from several countries, including C!anada and the USA, asking how the job was carried out. More impressively, the project attracted other local people who wish to be involved voluntarily in the beautification of their community. We can all be proud of this project. The community service order scheme is proving to be very successful, and well accepted in the community. Other community-oriented projects are being undertaken in the Prisons Department, For example, at Woodford Prison, the kitchen provides meals not only for the prison population but also for the local Meals on Wheels Association, At the same prison, the inmates assist local organisations such as schools and community and charitable organisations. Since 1978, about $13,000 has been raised or donated by prison officers at Woodford to provide materials that are used by inmates to build mostly playground equipment for handicapped chUdren, The efforts of both inmates and officers must be lauded in this worthwhile community project. Estimated expenditure for the Prisons Department has risen by 26.4 per cent over appropriations for 1981-82, and Probation and Parole's Vote has increased by 22.6 per cent. Included in these increases are costs for extra staff across the corrections area, and the continuing improvement of standards in prisons. There has been an increase of 17 per cent in estimates for prisoners' provisions, medical services, clothing and so on, including an increase in remuneration payable to prisoners. Additionally, an extra 30 per cent has been allocated for the continuation and expansion of the community service order program. OveraU, there has been an encouraging movement towards community involvement in both institutional and community-based corrections, including the opening up of the prison system to a large number of volunteer welfare workers, educators and others. The involvement of those people in the system is welcome, and I thank them for their contribution. Queensland's correctional system is moving forward to the future with a balanced, integrated approach. The co-operation between all departments concerned with my depart­ ment has been good, and I hope that it will continue in future years.

Department of Children's Services The Department of Children's Services provides a wide range of services to children, youth and famUies, including adoption, fostering, child protection, residential care, juvenUe corrective services, family support services, and provision of grants and subsidies to community organisations. It wiU be clear from the nature of the services outUned that this department's functions are of vital concern to aU Queenslanders, The society in which we live is undergomg massive changes as a result of complex economic and social factors. The impact of these changes is feU in all quarters of society, but nowhere as greatly as within the famUy itself. Honourable members would agree that the stabUity of the famUy unit is of vital concern to the future of our State, The pressures on the family are enormous. I believe that there is a greater demand for semces which are responsive to the changing needs of famiUes, and for appropriate welfare services. This constitutes a greater challenge than ever before. Our State is vast and the resources avaUable are limited. It is therefore imperative that the department's legislative base, objectives, and organisation enable both adequate leyels of service deUvery and equitable distribution of resources. Accordingly, I have initiated a major review of the department's organisation and functions. The review will facilitate the aims and objectives of the proposed family and youth services legislation. Honourable members wiU know that my predecessors and I have been greatly concerned that the present legislative foundation of the department does not sufficiently meet present community needs. The process of changing that legislation has been one of wide consultation, careful consideration and thoughful planning to accommodate both current and anticipated needs. The legislation should embody principles of flexibility and responsibUity, 2564 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

The fundamental principles of the legislation were set out in the White Paper on Family Welfare, which I presented to this House 11 months ago. The White Paper has been subject to close pubUc scrutiny. Submissions have been received, seminars held and opinions expressed. The result will be a BiU vidiich, I believe, wiU admirably serve the needs of Queenslanders for decades to come. The BiU is currently being drafted by the Parliamentary Cbunsel, Amendments to adoption legislation are also with ParUamentary (Counsel and significant progress has already been made in preparation of the necessary BiU, C3ianges recently made to the famUy day care regulations vriU enable the supervision of projects by approved organisations.

Organisational Review The changes foreshadowed in the White Paper on Family Welfare have already begun. The major review of the department's organisation and function has been completed and the findings are being implemented. The review involved face-to-face consultation with a wide cross-section of the staff of the department throughout the State, The staff of the department have participated actively in the review since Us inception, have shaped it and are committed to implementing its recommendations. The major focus of the proposals determined by the review team's findings is the enhancement of service delivery through the placement of resources closest to points of service deUveiy. To ensure that existing resources are utUised most effectively, monitoring and evaluation of departmental functions wiU be instituted. For the information of honourable members, I shaU provide some detaUs of the organisational changes to be implemented. Firstly, the department's service delivery functions wUl be even further decentralised. Administrative and professional expertise wiU be located as close as possible to the point of service deUvery through the introduction of district and regional resource teams. Four regions wiU be established, each with a regional director responsible for its management. Secondly, decision-making authority wiU be delegated as far as possible vrithin the decentralised organisation. It wiU include professional, administrative and financial powers, and accountabiUty WiU devolve to this decision-making point where possible. The decentralisation of authority necessitates a shift in focus of the head office of the department. Only those functions which are predominantly Statewide, which include re^arch, planning, monitoring and deployment of resources, consultancy and policy development wiU be retained centraUy, Implementation of this restructuring is dependent on staff development and training, and managerial competence at aU levels. Resources to achieve it will be aUocated as a priority. The changes wUl occur in the framework of the goals and objectives of the department, I am sure that honourable members wUl be keen to examine them, I seek leave to have a draft of them incorporated in "Hansard" (Leave granted,)

Goals and Objectives of the Department of QiUdren's Services The purpose of the Department is to implement the relevant legislation, in particular the ChUdren's Services Act, which in its preamble states it is:— "An Act to promote, safeguard and protect the children and youth of the State through a comprehensive and co-ordinated programme of child and famUy welfare." The Department has 6 goals:— 1, To k4ep chUdren and famiUes united wherever possible and appropriate. 2, To assist the justice system to balance the interests and needs of children with those of their fanulies and the community, 3, To provide alternative care services for children in ways which offer develop­ mental opportunities for such children whose famiUes are made to provide appropriate care or such care is not available, 4, To guide offending youth towards a more constructive way of life; an'' to protect society. supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2565

5. To provide protection for children from situations of abuse, neglect, ill- treatment and exploitation. 6. To ensure activities are systematicaUy directed towards the achievement of Department's purpose. Within each goal are the foUowing objectives:

Goal I , a. The reduction of family disruption or separation, b. The alleviation of personal distress, c The ensuring of an adequate standard of care provisions in day care centres and famUy day care so that children's emotional, social, physical and intellectual needs are meT. d. The provision of adequate care to children under 10 Uving apart from their families for more than 48 hours. e. The provision to families and individuals of emotional support and practical help in developing skills in home management and child care, f. Assistance to families with inadequate income or resources to care for children, g. The promotion of well-being of children and famiUes. h. The promotion and facUitation of the development of community resources and services, i. The promotion of effective parenting,

Goain a. The representation of the interests and needs of chUdren in care proceedings before the Children's Court, and other courts, b. The protection of the interests of chUdren when questioned by police, c. Protection of the interests and needs of children in custody and access proceedings in the Supreme and Family Courts,

Goal III a. The ensuring of a sufficient range of alternative care services so that developmental opportunities are available, b. The development and maintenance of a range of alternative care services, c. The development, for each chUd, of a case plan which ensures that his developmental needs are met, d. Ensuring that, while a child is placed in alternative care, services are provided to his family so as to maximize his chances of returning to his own family, e. Ensuring that the rights of chUdren in relation to identity, development and contact with family are protected whUe in alternative care, f. The promotion of the optimum development of rural children with hearing or visual impairments by providing family based care as an alternative to specialized residential care. g. Ensuring that where a child's family seeks his adoption, the child is placed with the best possible family, h. Ensuring that in adoption the rights and needs of the chUd are the paramount consideration, i. Ensuring that when a child's family has been provided with all possible services whUe a child is in alternative care and it is still not safe or appropriate for the chUd to retum home, all possible action wiU be taken to provide permanent and secure care for the child in a family setting by adoption, custody or guardianship arrangements. , 2566 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Goal IV / a. Ensuring that whenever possible offending youth are retained and supported within their local community, b. The facUitation of acceptance and integration of offending youth in their local environment, c. Ensuring that, when offending youth are deprived of their liberty, further deprivation e,g, sensory, social, developmental, educational is minimized, d. Ensuring that the rights of offending youth are balanced with the protection of society, e. Provision of assessment services which ensure that the needs of offending youth are adequately identified, f. Provision of services which assist in the meeting of the needs of offending youth.

Goal V a. The protection of chUdren from situations of abuse, neglect, ill-treatment, abandonment and exploitation, b. The provision of assistance to children at risk or who have been abused, neglected, ill-treated, abandoned or exploited, c. The provision of assistance to the parents of such children. d. The development and maintenance of family functioning which does not place children at risk or continue risk, e. The development of assessment services which adequately identify particular chUdren at risk and who have been harmed, f. The development in conjunction with other relevant organizations of services which assist such chUdren. g. Ensuring that children of compulsory school age and not employed in such a way as to conflict with their educational needs being met.

Goal VI a. Ensuring effective case and workload management, b. Provision of training to aU staff, c. Development and maintenance of effective communication, d. Efficient and effective financial management so as to maximize resource usage, Mr WHITE: I have also established a review into the functioning of residential care services and facilities in Queensland, Staff engaged in this review are consulting with a wide range of departmental officers and non-Government agencies providing residential services. The team will be presenting its recommendations to me within the next two months. Other organisational initiatives have included— 1, Reorganised departmental budgeting to allow for greater flexibUity in utUisation of funds; 2, Cost centre budgeting for more efficient financial management; 3, The commissioning of two operational audit reports, with positive results; 4, The continuing oversight of developments on a Statewide basis through regular visits by myself and the director to non-metropolitan regions; and 5, Improved staff support, training and functioning faciUtated through the establishment of a personnel section, in consultation with the Public Service Board, the production of distance learning modules and the preparation of a manual of practice and procedures. The department is not at a standstiU because of its current organisational restructuring. This has been a year in which the department has been particularly active in extending and enhancing existing services to clients and the wider community, I would like to mention some of those services in more detail, as they reflect the diversity of services m which my department is engaged, as well as the dedication and professionaUsm of its officers. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2567

One of the major trends in recent years is increased community involvement, which I support wholeheartedly. The production of brochures and other pubUcity has meant that the community is now more aware of the department's activities and has easier access to services when required. The department now makes use of volunteers in the Crisis Care Unit, and during the next year wUl be expanding this program Statewide. The involvement of volunteers has proved highly successful and I am keen to see extended recruitment of volunteers to work with children and famUies. The problems faced by any community must be shared by that community, and my department is now providing the opportunity for such involvement in many areas. An interesting development is the co-operation between my department and the AngUcan Diocese of Rockhampton in the Careforce Project, which will provide structured community support for families facing problems or stress. Community participation is not a one-way street, of course, and I am pleased to report that I have aUocated staff to assist io the work of Arana (3are Services on a "no strings attached" basis, A similar commitment has been more recently arranged with the Goodna Neighbourhood Centre, My officers are also conducting a most productive liaison with universities and colleges of advanced education for the purposes of training houseparents from our family group homes and residential facilities, (bourses for foster parents have also proven to be very successful. One* important expression of community involvement recently was ChUdren's Week. This year saw a revitalised and expanded ChUdren's Week, which included children of all ages and their families from all comers of the State. Few people could have failed to be aware of this week of celebration of childhood. I have always supported the concept of wide community use of the department's facilities. It includes redeployment of resources to reflect changing needs. The ijast year has seen great advances in this area. The Wooloowin FamUy Ontre in the grounds of Warilda Receiving and Assessment Centre has opened and is providing a valuable service, particularly to famUies with pre-school children. The outdoor adventure program at "The Outlook", Boonah, aims to provide young people with the skills and confidence they need to face the challenges of life. The program provides a service to young people in the community who suffer disadvantage, as weU as young people in the care of my department.

Juvenile Corrections The department strives to provide the highest quaUty care for young people committed to custody. The institutional programs aim to maximise the opportunity for the offender's rehabilitation. At Westbrook Training Centre, for instance, boys are involved in a range of programs, such as social skills, training and work preparation, which wiU equip them to make a fresh start. The dormitories at Westbrook, which previously reflected institutional policy of days gone by, have been remodelled into individual rooms. Each boy now has the privacy and dignity of his own room. Improved fire safety methods and interaal commuhication systems ensure the complete safety of every boy. I hope that honourable members were able to view the recent coverage of this facUity by the current affairs program, "The Reporters" It very correctly portrayed Westbrook as the leading example of enlightened juvenile correctional institutions in this country. Progress has also been made at Wilson Youth Hospital, and the target of remodeUing recreational facUities there has been achieved. Preliminary plans for the Wacol correctional facility have also been drawn up, and it is anticipated that that much-needed detention centre wUl commence operation iri 1985, The new Children's Court buUding on Coronation Drive is well under way and wiU provide an important contribution to the administration of juvenile justice. The highly successful proctor program provides mtensive training for adolescent ghls in care of the department. The Youth Employment Support Scheme has also expanded and continues to have a commendable rate of success in placing and maintaining young people in jobs. Adoption and Fostering The care of younger, more dependent children who cannot reside with their famUies has always been a major focus of my department. Some parents choose to relinquish their children permanentiy, and it is vital that such children are adopted into loving 2568 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

families. These days, there are many more faifiUies wishing to adopt children than there are babies avaUable for adoption, and Mrt of my department's poUcy has been to encourage famUies to consider the adoption of special needs chUdren, These are older chUdren, or chUdren with special difficufties such as a physical or intellectual handicap I am sure I am speaking for aU honourable members when I say that these children have every right to a permanent, legally secure and happy home. There has also been a significant trend towards foster care for children, as an altern­ ative to institutional living, I commend this trend, since a stable famUy is the best place for children to grow and develop. For the chUdren who do reside in residential facUities, it is important that high standards of care be maintained and I have ordered the preparation of a statement of minimum standards in residential cafe. There are also new arrangements for outfitting of children in licensed institutions and in foster care. Children should be maintained in their own famiUes wherever this is possible, so families experiencing difficuUies caring for itheir children must be supported. To ensure that famiUes have access to such services no matter where they reside in this vast State I have opened eight new offices throughout the State, These are mostly in provincial areas that have traditionaUy had few services available. Other services providing support to famiUes include an expanded homemaker schenie, the regionaUsation of aid to prisoners' families, and the estabUshment of a women's refuge in the Toowoomba area.

Increased Payments and Subsidies The department reUes heavily on the continued involvement of committed voluntary agencies and individuals such as foster parents. To enable them to continue their valuable services, the range and quantity of grants to non-Government organisations has been increased. These increases are part of the enhancements announced by my coUeague the Honourable the Deputy Premier and Treasurer when the Budget was brought down. I seek the leave of the Committee to have the full details incorporated in "Hansard" (Leave granted.) 1. ReUef payments were increased by approximately 11 per cent as from 1 November. A single person wiU be eligible for a payment of $17.20, a husband and wife, $34.40 vrith an additional $7,80 for each dependent child. These mcreases will also apply to relief payments made through other agencies, 2, The subsidy payable to social workers employed in voluntary organisations was increased by 15 per cent, 3, Payments to licensed institutions were increased as from 1 November, The reserved bed rate is now $36,25, and an occupied bed attracts payments of $41.75 and $47,50 for children under and over the age of 13 respectively. These represent increases of roughly 11 per cent in the first two cases and 13 per cent in the third case, 4, The foster allowance was increased from 24 October by approximately 11 per cent for chUdren under 13, and by approximately 13 per cent for children over 13 or attending secondary school. 5. The initial outfitting allowance has been increased to $130 for chUdren under 13 and to $160 for children over 13 or attending secondary school. 6. Assistance to families has been increased to $15.40 per week per child.

Mr WHITE: Additionally, funds available for the Women's Services Program have been increased by 21.5 per cent, which wiU enable the establishment of a total of 21 funded refuges. The Consumer Credit Counselling allocation has been increased by 45.3 per cent, and these funds wiU be used to provide an expanded service through this grant scheme. From the information I have given, honourable members wiU agree that the Depart­ ment of Children's Services is meeting the challenge of providing an extensive range of services that enhance and protect not only the families of this generation but also tbe famUies of tbe future. Sipply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2569

General It would be remiss of me not to thank my personal staff for their support over the past two years, I particularly mention my private secretary Mr Joe (Tonsoli, who is so weU known to many honourable members, my Press secretary, Mr Ted Latta, the senior stenographer, Miss Jenny Brown, and the other stenographers who have been of great assistance, I am grateful also for the high quaUty of administrative support provided, first by Mr Cedric Johnson, and latterly by Mr Peter Jones, and by Messrs Alan Pettigrew and Keith Hamburger as the senior officers of the department, I would also like to pay tribute to all the officers of my department, I have taken the opportunity, when I could, to meet as many of them as possible. Naturally, I have not been able to meet aU staff in our wide State, but I say a heartfelt ''thanks" for the loyalty, the dedication and the efforts of staff all across the State, My thanks also go to the heads of the sub-departments, Mr Bob Plummer, now Adviser for Welfare Policy and Legislation, and Mr Graham Zeffc, Director of Children's Services, the Comptroller-General of Prisons, Mr Evan CoUins, the Chief Probation and Parole Officer, Mr Jay Perkins, and Mr Barry Nielsen of Queensland Recreation CouncU, I also convey my appreciation to Mr Peter Bridgman for the preparation of Estimates material. Many volunteers contribute to the activities of the department, and my appreciation is also extended to them. My department is undergoing considerable change and consolidation in all areas to ensure it wiU meet the challenges Of the future with responsibility, with efficiency, and with compassion. It is an exciting time in this portfolio, and it is fortunate that we have the opportunity to debate these Estimates. I look forward with interest to the contributions which will be made by the various speakers today.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I desire to inform honourable members that, on the Vote proposed, I wiU allow a full discussion on aU the Minister's departmental Estimates (Consolidated Revenue, Tmst and Special Funds, and Loan Fund Account), For the information of honourable members, I point out that the administrative acts of the department are open to debate, but the necessity for legislation and matters involving legislation cannot be discussed in Committee of Supply,

Mr SHAW (Wynnum) (12.50 p.m.): The Minister ended his speech by expressing his gratitude to members of his department, I am afraid I must begin mine by expressing regret that a copy of his speech is not avaUable now and that large sections of it, which I have not had the opportunity of assessing, were incorporated in "Hansard", I am sure that the Minister wiU also regret that. During his speech, the Minister said that he expected a further moving away from the traditional incarceration of convicted people and a greater use of the community- service type of sentence. He mentioned that there would, as a result of that move, be a saving of some miUions of doUars, I want to take up that point because, although I find that there is a great deal deserving of praise, we have moved from a situation, as the Minister said, where some 10 years ago 80 per cent of convicted persons received gaol sentences to a situation where today something Uke 44 per cent of persons convicted are sent to gaol. There is a great deal in those figures to be grateful for, but it is also true that there are some areas of concern, and I want to deal with them first. The Minister has expressed his support for the reforms. Honourable members on this side of the Conunittee would support reforms in the rehabiUtation of convicted criminals, but the release-to-work scheme, the advent of more parolees and the lessening in the number of people sent to gaol has placed a great strain on the system. It appears to be an unfortunate fact that the cheerful way in which the Mmister's department has T tr*^^*^ *sse reforms has not been accompanied by the same enthusiasm on behalf ot the Treasurer and the Government generally in aUocating the necessary funds to see that work of that type is carried out properly. I may have the figures slightly wrong, because I tried to take them down as the Minister gave them, but I think it is notable that it is now costing about $33,000 a year 2570 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates) to maintain a person in prison as against slightly more than $500 per person per year under parole or probation schemes. Certainly there is a great saving to the Government there, and it would be fair to expect that some of those savings would be being passed on to the Minister's department to enable an expansion in the number of people employed as parole and probation officers. However, it does not appear that such an increase in funding has occurred. In fact, a pemsal of the annual report shows that the system is in a great deal of trouble. If one tries to translate the very careful wording used by the public servants involved, I do not thmk it would be unfair to say that the system is in a crisis situation. The Chief Probation and Parole Officer said in his report— "However, it will stiU not be possible to provide a fuU range of services throughout the State, During the financial year under discussion, every effort was made to contain services within budgetary provisions. This has meant that probation officers have not been able to provide adequate supervision in a number of rapidly expanding centres." That statement is very carefully worded. Perhaps it is the type of understatement one might expect from professional public servants. There is reason for grave concern, because the public is not being given adequate protection from the potential activities of those being released from prison. It must be realised that parole boards do not have a crystal baU, Even the most highly qualified psychiatrist cannot determine whether offenders have been completely cured, or predict whether they wUl regress. There is no way of knowing that. The element of risk is always present when prisoners are released from gaol, The report indicates that one convicted murderer, a convicted rapist and 171 sex offenders have been released. The departmental officials are saying that they are not being adequately supervised because there are insufficient staff numbers to do the job properly. In all, 1 589 people convicted of breaking and entering and about 361 dmg offenders have been released on probation. Drug offenders, more so than other offenders, need continuing supervision, counselUng and assistance. That is all-important. It has been suggested that release on probation is not causing a problem because greater efficiency in overcoming the shortage of staff necessary to carry out the work. It is just not possible for the problem to be overcome by greater efficiency. Cbunselling and supervision of those who need help and care—and I include parolees—cannot be done quickly. Counsellors must spend time with the parolees to supervise what they are doing, keep in touch with their activities and get to know their problems. That can be done only by talking to them to let the counsellors gain an insight into their problems, I repeat that that can be done only by devoting adequate time to them. Continuing supervision and contact with parolees is vital. It should be noted from the report that 10 parolees have absconded without trace. Although that is probably not a bad record compared with the number of parolees, 1 am sure the Minister will agree that it is no justification for not administering the scheme properly. Without going overboard about it I suggest the number of absconders indicates that much better, continuing supervision is needed to keep in touch with the parolees and leam just what is happening. It is noteworthy that from January 1982 to September 1982, 1 000 extra prisoners were released on parole under the supervision of probation officers. In that time, probation staff numbers increased by only one, I understand that a move is afoot to increase the staff ratio to some extent but, to my knowledge, the Government has no intention of appointing the necessary number of probation officers. At the same time, nobody has indicated that this matter is to get the urgent attention it deserves. When one considers the work that the probation officers have to undertake, one realises that the 1000 extra parolees mean that the system, as the (Thief Probation and Parole Officer said, is under considerable strain. In the circumstances, it is not unfair to say that public safety is not being maintained as it should be and that there is some danger to the public because of the inability to maintain the constant supervision that is so necessary. As the Minister said, the judiciary has been reluctant to impose prison sentences. That is evident, because only 44 per cent of convicted criminals have been sent to prison. [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2571

Mr SHAW: Before the luncheon recess I referred to some of the problems caused by the shortage of probation and parole officers. Perhaps it is more correct to say that the work-load has expanded at an increasing rate as a result of the reforms that have been introduced. I have supported the introduction of those reforms. Today, the average number of persons under the supervision of a parole officer is just under 112. It is not reasonable to expect those officers to carry out their work effectively, I have been privileged to receive some material that was presented at a recent conference of staff officers. At that conference, a motion was carried unanimously urging the Minister to take urgent action to rectify the situation. That shows that those officers are very concerned. Some of the statements made by the officers indicate the depth of their concern. It was pointed out also that their work-load had increased by an estimated 300 per cent in the first four months of this financial year. That is a tremendous increase, and one begins to understand the gravity of the situation. Although convicted persons are being released, there is a degree of uncertainty as to what their behaviour will be. The public is entitled to expect that there will be super­ vision of the highest order. The Minister said that the amount of work entailed in the preparation of reports under the community service scheme and pre-sentence reports to the judiciary involves a tremendous amount of work. The community service scheme is a very welcome and praiseworthy project. However, additional funds should be provided to ensure that the work is carried out properly. It was also stated at the probation officers' conference that the viability of probation, parole and community service as correctional programs is threatened. The situation must be very serious indeed if pubUc servants make such statements. They are saying that the whole fabric of this worthwhile system is threatened. A crisis point has been reached and the system is in danger of falUng down or faiUng completely. Most importantly, the probation officers said that the objective of the protection of society through the control and rehabilitation of offenders within the community is gravely jeopardised. That is a very serious statement. Those officers are saying what I said in the beginning, namely, that there is a genuine fear that the pubUc is not being protected. One must wonder at the rationale of that. That fear has come about because the Treasurer has said that the Public Service staff ceiling must be adhered to and that there will not be an increase in the number of persons appointed to carry out that very worthwhile job. At the same time, the Treasurer said in the Budget that additional funds would be aUocated to employ an extra 154 poUce officers. We might very weU ask, "To what end?" Policemen will be employed to administer the law and to apprehend offenders. However, the majority of persons who are convicted will be released under a system of inadequate supervision. In other words, they will virtually be allowed back into the community unsuper­ vised. Grave concern is felt at the fact that the scheme is not being administered as well as it should be. The fact that offenders are released without proper supervision jeopardises the whole scheme. If as a result of improper supervision a convicted person becomes involved in another crime, one that is brought to the attention of the pubUc, public pressure will be exerted towards a reversal of the scheme. The very worthwhile reforms, of which the Minister is quite justly proud, wiU be lost. There wUl be a great deal of pubUc pressure to have all convicted persons confined to prison. That would be a very retrogressive step. As the Minister said, most convicted persons serve very short terms in prison. On the surface, that counds Uke a worthwhUe gain. However, some people, especially poUce officers, are concerned because, without a proper follow-up system of counselling, persons serving short terms of imprisonment regard the prison as a training ground in which they are taught crinunal methods. In other words, persons serving short terms of imprison­ ment are confirmed into a life of crime instead of being rehabilitated, I hope that, as a mattCT of urgency, the Government will increase the number of persons available for the supervision of parolees and persons on probation. I now want to refer briefly to what can only be described as a scandal in the prison system. I refer to the recent death of a prisoner in Etna Creek Prison as the result of an overdose of dmgs. The incident is an incredible one. The coroner in his report, which 2572 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

was released recently, found that the death occurred as the result of an overdose of drugs administered by another prisoner, one who was in charge of the supply and administra­ tion of dmgs within the prison. That incident followed upon complaints by warders that they were requested virtually to practise medicine—something for which any unqualified person outside the prison system would be prosecuted. The prisoner who was in charge of the supply of drugs was not required to keep any record of the drugs under his control or of the way in which he administered or dealt with them. It bears repeating that, following the death of the prisoner, a test of the prisoner who was in control of the dmgs revealed that in his blood system he had a dose of drugs simUar to that in the blood system of the dead prisoner. So it can be assumed that he, too, was using drugs. The prisoner who was placed in control of the administration of dmgs inside the prison was using drugs himself. The worst feature of the whole incident is that, upon the death of the prisoner, no action was taken for 10 months. The Minister is shaking his head. Apparently my claim is unfounded. However, I base it on the fact that the coroner's report was handed down 10 months after the death occurred, and within a couple of weeks of the handing down of the report the Minister announced that an investigation would be conducted into the incident. It can only be assumed that the situation was allowed to continue over that period. If that is not true, I wiU be pleased to be told so because it is a very serious matter. After 10 months or more the Minister should have been in a position to announce what action had been taken and to assure the pubUc that prisoners would not be administering drugs to other prisoners unsupervised and that a record would be kept of the drugs under the control of prisoners. That whole situation is unfortunate, (Time expired,) Mr FRAWLEY (Caboolture) (2,26 p,m,): It gives me a great deal of pleasure to speak in the debate on the Minister's Estimates 'because the Minister has brought a great deal of understanding to his portfolio, Mr Milliner: Nonsense! Mr FRAWLEY: No, it is not, I do not congratulate Ministers unless they desene it. I am one Government member who is not afraid to give Ministers a kick if they deserve it, I have done that during the 10 years that I have been here and I wUl do it in the last 12 months that I am here. Mr Hooper: Although on occasions I have heard you giving Ministers a mild rebuke, I have never heard you rebuke the president of the National Party, Sir Robert Sparkes, who took your endorsement from you. Mr FRAWLEY: Mr Row, with your indulgence, I wiU have to answer that interjection, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Row): Order! I vriU not indulge the honourable member too far. Mr FRAWLEY: My endorsement has not been taken from me. As aU members know, I am not contesting the next election. Mr Hooper: You were told not to.

M!r FRAWLEY: I was not. If I wished, I could probably win the seat as an Independent, but I do not want to do that. I want to retire gracefuUy and come back to Parliament House occasionaUy and use the Past Members' Room, As I was saying, the Minister has brought a great deal of understandihg to his portfoUo, It has been a pleasure to serve on his committee. No doubt other members wiU speak today about all sorts of things so I thought that I would concentrate on something that I know a Uttle about, and that is the Woodford Prison, which happens to be in my electorate. Unfortunately, the prisoners cannot vote, or I would get another 220 votes. Recently, a technical and further education course was conducted at the Woodford Prison, and I was asked to speak on behalf of the Government and give the class a Suj^ly. (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2573 nin-down cm what the CJoverament is doing. Senator Bonner was also invited to speak, I think that was a mistake; but, nevertheless he was invited, A COUUCIUOT from the Caboohure Shire Ck)uncU was also invited to speak. Each person spoke on his respective subject, I had a very interesting conversation with the prisoners. Incidentally, most of the prisoners in the class were either Aborigines or Islanders from Brisbane, I think that only one of them came from the country. They asked many sensible questions. One was "Don't you think it is a mistake fOT so many of us to be kept in prison? Don't you'think it is a great cost to the Government?" I said, "What do you feUows expect? A medal for the best rape of the year or the best assault of the year? You have to be in here to do a bit of punishment," In fact, if I had my way, flogging and hanging would have been reintroduced long ago, I have said before, and I repeat it now, that capital punishment should be reintroduced for particularly bad crimes of rape, I shaU cite a case in my electorate. One Sunday a young girl of, I think, 19 years of age was walking along the side of the road with her boy-friend near Beerwah, A car pulled up beside them and three louts jumped out, flattened her boy-friend, grabbed her put her into the car, drove into the scmb at Beerwah and raped her. They were not just satisfied with raping her; they kicked her so badly that they broke her zygoma, which is the bone in the side of the face. The same bone was broken in the side of my face once, and I know how painful it was. Those louts kicked in her face so badly that the plastic surgeons couldn't repair her nose. She has tried to commit suicide on two occasions. She has been in Lowson House, One of those fellows wrote to me from Woodford Prison and asked, "C^n you get me out on baU? I am in for 14 years," I wrote back and said, "If I had my way you would not be there. They would have hanged you," Mr Blake: Worse than animals,

Mr FRAWLEY: They are. They should be hanged for violent crimes. There are too many namby-pamby, psalm-singing do-gooders in this community who do not want to do anything about those people.

The Woodford prison is mn by Tom King. Mr R, J, Gibbs: How do you feel about compulsory Bible classes?

Mr FRAWLEY: Parents should conduct classes in religion for theu: chUdren at home, and they should also give them instmction in sex. There should be no need for sex education or Bible classes at schools, I gave my chUdren their sex education and had no problems with them. Other parents should have enough guts to do the same thing instead of expecting schoolteachers to do it. However, I wiU not digress any further. The Woodford Prison was opened in 1973 by the late John Herbert, I went there with him on opening day. The ALP was represented by the member for Brisbane Ontral (Mr Davis), who later complained bitterly that he had not been invited, I argue about that. The present Minister for Transport (Don Lane) and I were there and personaUy escorted Mr Davis to morning tea, I can recaU the Minister leading him by the hand to morning tea, I thought that it was a wonderful sight, a Government member leading an Opposition member to tea. It was a sight that touched me. The average daily population at Woodford Prison is 223. The prison wiU accommodate 240, Yesterday, when I checked, there were 226, Since Woodford Prison was opened in 1973, it has accommodated 3 088 prisoners. The present officer in charge is Mr Tom King, who brings a great deal of understanding to his job. He encourages the prisoners to participate in many community services and a great deal of sport, I am a strong believer in more sport in prisons, I am not referring to body-contact sport. The Woodford Prison touch-fpotbaU team won the Caboolture premiership. Some of the teams came from hotels. They were out of condition, of course. The prisoners "w^ '" excellent condition. I presented the prize at the. final, I said to Tom King, why don't we mn them over 100m and see how they go?" We Uned them up, I had 2574 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

a stop-watch and we ran the prisoners and the other players over 100m, I think the prisoners ran first, second, third and fourth. One ran a particularly good time, I wiU not mention the name of the prisoner who is a very good sprinter. He went to St Peter's Lutheran CbUege, I thought it was rather a shame for a St Peter's boy to be in prison, I have arranged for an athletic coach to draw him up a training program so that he can train. He clocked 10,6 seconds for 100 metres, which is pretty good time. The winning time on Saturday at Nathan was 10,5, wmd assisted. This young fellow also ran a tick over 22 seconds for 200 metres, which is not too bad, Mr R, J, Gibbs: How old is he?

Mr FRAWLEY: He is 22 years of age. He is a very taU and well-buiU fellow. He is a Papuan, Mr R, J, Gibbs: Like yourself,

Mr FRAWLEY: No, he is a bit bigger than I am. Like me, he is weU built, Mr Blake: Some of those prisoners have been running for their lives, haven't they?

Mr FRAWLEY: No, Nobody escapes from Woodford Prison, I know that the member for Bundaberg is being facetious. He is one of the most responsible members of the ALP, He would have gone a long way had he been a backstabber. As he is not, he is where he is now—on the back benches, I rei)eat that Tom King is a very community minded person. One of the great things in a prison is to give the prisoners—especiaUy the young feUows—some community service. Most of those in Woodford are between the ages of 17 and 25 years, although there are a few older ones. At Woodford they do a great deal of community work. They have built a number of adventure playgrounds for schools, I went to the opening of the adventure playground at the EUmbah State School, Mr Davis: You were only there for about five minutes and you got your name on a plaque,

Mr FRAWLEY: My name is on a plaque at the Woodford Prison, I was there on opening day. The member for Brisbane Central weU remembers the morning tea that the Minister for Transport and I hosted. He ate all the pumpkin scones supplied by the Premier's wife. The community services carried out by the Woodford Prison are not confined to adventure playgrounds at schools, A fair amount of work is also done for the Narrow Gauge Railway Society, which is based at Woodford, That very worthy organisation has only approximately 800 metres of track at present. The prisoners assist it on week-ends. That society has locos that were used on the sugar fields. Also, the prisoners have done some work for the Caboolture Historical Society, which is located on the northern outskirts of the town on the old Gympie Road, Mr Davis: Was that the Caboolture Hysterical Society?

Mr FRAWLEY: No, the CabooUure Historical Society, Mr Davis: I thought that would be a National Party branch,

Mr FRAWLEY: No, it is not a branch at aU, In fact, most of the people in that society would be Labor Party supporters, but they are still not bad people. They are nice people on the wrong track, Mr Davis: Are we going to have to cop this?

Mr FRAWLEY: I have 10 minutes to go and I wiU talk for as long as I can. The honourable member for Brisbane Central wiU have to sU there and cop it. He will eani some of his money by sitting there and listening to me, I have to sit here and listen to a^ly (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2575

ridiculous speeches made by members opposite. Today I am trying to make a responsible speech. I admit that I have gone off the deep end occasionally and given Opposition members a bit of a working over. Today I thought I would try to do the decent thing. The Woodford Prison does not have a milk quota. When the prison was first commenced the farmers from the Woodford area were concerned that it may be awarded a milk quota for the C!abooUure factory. Because those farmers have to fight for their quota, I do not think the prison should have one. However, the prison sells its milk to the factory and that is used for manufactured milk products. Of course, that attracts a slightly lower price than is paid for market milk. Mr Davis: What is the price? Mr FRAWLEY: I do not know. Mr Davis: If I represented a rural area, I would know prices, Mr FRAWLEY: The honourable member would not be able to find his way out there. After we had been to Woodford Prison we had to bring the honourable member back to Chermside to put him on a council bus so that he could find his way home. At tlie time of the establishment of the Woodford Prison many people in that area were concerned that the town was not going ahead. Many of the prison officers now Uve in Woodford and its surrounds, so the prison has been an asset to the town. At first the prison was to be estabUshed at Caboolture, but many people in the area protested. That was before I became the member for the area, Mr FUzGerald: Many good people came from Woodford,

Mr FRAWLEY: That is right. The wife of the member for Lockyer comes from Woodford. Mr Prest; When you became the member for Caboolture there were more crooks outside than inside,

Mr FRAWLEY: The honourable member for Port Curtis did not do too badly when he was the mayor of Gladstone. He has remained out of prison. Since the prison officers have moved to Woodford they have joined the bowls club and the chamber of commerce, and one of them is the secretary of the parents and citizens association of the Woodford State School. So the officers have contributed to the cultural Ufe of the town and have been an asset to the area. From the day that prison was built nobody has objected to its presence. IncidentaUy, the late Canon JuU of Redcliffe was on that property many years ago when it was a dairy farm. I ensured that he was invited to the opening day of the prison. He had mentioned that when he was a boy he had Uved therCj so I took him along. The Woodford Prison has a Dog Squad. Many Dog Squads exist throughout the State. Mr R. J. Gibbs: There is a dog squad in your own National Party.

Mr FRAWLEY: I wUl not comment on that. The Dog Squad at Woodford comes in for a great deal of unwarranted criticism. During a riot one dog is as good as 20 prison officers. Three or four dogs are probably worth 40 officers. A dog with an officer who can control it is an asset to any prison, Mr R, J. Gibbs: Would you apply that equation to the three members of the dog squad in here?

Mr FRAWLEY: I will not make any comments on that, I am confining my remarks strictly to the Woodford Prison, As I said, the prison has been an asset to the local community. The Minister, other people involved in the prison service and I are great beUevers in teaching young prisoners 2576 23 November 1982 Supply (Estiauitei)

a trade. Many of the young inmates are illiterate. For the benefit of the member for Brisbane Central, who occasionally uses a three-letter word, that means that they cannot read or write. Those prisoners who want to, can leam a trade. As weU as the technical and further education courses that give prisoners an insight into other matters, wood­ working is taught at the wood machinists' shop at the prison. Prisoners can also leam fitting and turning, baking and motor mechanics, or work on the dairy farm: Incidentally, one of my sons is an instructor in motor mechanics, but he did not get the job through my influence, Mr R, J, Gibbs: He graduated inside, did he?

Mr FRAWLEY: No, he did not graduate inside. The instructors do a very good job. For those who do not know, Woodford is a very nice little town about 75 km from Brisbane, I receive about 85 per cent of the primary vote there, and the Labor Party is lucky if it can get anyone to run its polling booth, Mr Davis: How many residents are there-^80 or 82?

Mr FRAWLEY: I just told the honourable member that at the present time, or as of 11 o'clock yesterday, there were 226 prisoners in WoodfOrd, Woodford Prison has been open for only a very few years, but over that period I have become acquainted with a few of the prisoners who have been released. One is now working in Caboolture, He speaks highly of the prison. He got dmnk,. held up a taxi-driver at knife-point, and was convicted of armed robbery, for which he was sentenced to four years' imprisonment. He was released on parole and has turned out to be a pretty good sort of feUow, Being dmnk is no excuse, of course. He did U, but he has paid his penalty and is now quite a good resident of Caboolture, Prisons can turn out good people. Many young people in Woodford Prison are just victims of circumstance. There are a number of hardened prisoners, but most of them are unfortunates and we should not be too hard on them. We should give them facUities so that they can improve themselves, which the Government is doing. I can speak with authority about Woodford Prison, because I go there. The gentleman in charge shows the people of Woodford over the prison and explains how. it works. He told me that any time I want to go there, there wiU not be any argument about it; I only have to ring up and say that I want to have a look around the place, I go there quite often,

Mr Hansen: Board and lodging,

Mr FRAWLEY: No, but I must admit that the prison conditions these days are not too bad. Some years ago it was suggested—I think by the member for Brisbane Central—that aU the prisoners at Palen Creek were using the same toothbrush, Mr Davis: I didn't,

Mr FRAWLEY: I am sure the honourable member did, Mr Davis: I said that it was at Westbrook, Mr FRAWLEY: It could have been Westbrook, I can remember the late John Herbert saying, "We've got to pin this bloke down," So a party of us went down to Palen Creek—I stiU say that was the one mentioned by the member for Brisbane Ontral— Numinbah Valley and Westbrook, Some of the aUegations made by the member for Brisbane Central were absolute tripe. They were not tme, I walked into the prisoners' rooms and said, "Look, you can tell me the tmth; I won't go and pimp on you. Are you feUows using the same toothbrush?" Mr Davis: Did they show you the community toothbrush? Mr FRAWLEY: No, there was no community toothbmsh, I think the allegations made by the member for Brisbane Central were disgraceful Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2577

I have no doubt that when the member for Brisbane Central and the membw for for South Brisbane speak in this debate they wUl castigate prisons and prison officers. Being a prison officer is an onerous task, I would not Uke to be a prison officer, I admit that a better training program for prison officers could be devised, but I can honestly sav speaking only about the prison in my electorate, that I have never had any complaints from the prisoners there, I have spoken to many of them at different times after they have been released, but I have never received any complaints about prison bmtality, I do not think it exists at Woodford, I have heard certain stories, but they have aU been proven to be false, I think people just make them up. The people of Woodford know that nothing goes on at Woodford Prison that could not be open to the pubUo view at any time, Mr Blake: And they do appreciate their own toothbmsh, don't they? Mr FRAWLEY: I am disappointed that the member for Bundaberg made that facetious remark, I do not think he reaUy meant it. I thank you for your latitude, Mr Row. This is the best State in AustraUa. People are flockinghere , even if U is just to get into our gaols. Mrs NELSON (Aspley) (2.45 p.m.): In speaking to the Welfare Estimates I have some comments to offer on the restmcturing and reorganising of the department. For some years prior to my election to Parliament I was chairman of the Liberal Party's Welfare Committee and worked in conjunction with a number of Ministers, It gives me pleasure to support the Minister, In recent decades, of all Ministers, he has made a great and successful effort to restructure the administrative side of his portfolio and its delivery of service. He is the second Minister—the other being Mr Doumany—^to look at the functioning of the department to see if it is relevant to the latter part of the twentieth centiffy, and to determine what services should be delivered in the early part of the next century. Instead of deaUng with aU aspects of the Minister's portfolio, I wiU deal with three areas that particularly concern and interest me. Some honourable members may not know that the Disabled Persons Service stemmed from recommendations made at a 1981 conference called "Access '81" That conference, which was mn by a group in Brisbane, provided an opportunity for 150 parents of disabled children or adults to live together in Brisbane for three days and discuss the various problems facing them. It allowed them to make recommendations to the Government and voluntary organisations about how they felt services should be run and the faciUties that should be made available for them and their disabled children. An interesting feature of the conference was that it was attended by mothers and fathers—U was not confined to mothers. Many of the parents brought their disabled children with them. The State Government provided the facilities to care for the disabled while the parents attended the conference. As a result of the recommendations made by that conference, it became very clear that one of their major worries was lack of access to information. The further they lived from urban areas the worse off they were. People from isolated areas pointed out that virtually no information was available to them about the financial benefits and legal aid, educational, health and welfare services which were available, A decade or so ago very little was avaUable, An approach was made to the Minister for Welfare Servicra, who was responsible for lYDP, by the people who ran the conference, I am pleased to say that he took cognisance of the recommendations. He is one of the Ministers at State level who has acted on recommendations from that conference. As a result, the Disabled Persons Service became a reality, I have some comments to offer on how it is working, and how it might work in the future, (Community reaction to it has been outstanding. It has been operating for only a short time but, in the first five months, more than 300 telephone inquiries have come from people in Queensland seeking information. In the same time, dozens and dozens of letters and telegrams have been received. In all, 23 orgainsations in the State have availed themselves of its services. In other words, th^ have offered information and been given information. Perhaps honourable members do not understand how frustrating it is for parents who need a certam type of medical service or aid if they do not know the name of the organisation 2578 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates) that they are entitled to receive help from. The phone-in service gives them immediate access to information. If an answer cannot be given immediately it is forthcoming in a day or so. The best thing to come out of the service is the follow-up information. Those who have not experienced the frustration of lack of understanding and knowledge cannot understand how much the service is appreciated. Despite what I have said, some proWems have arisen. The scheme is operating on a shoe-string budget. The number of staff employed is very small. The staff is working a great deal of unpaid overtime because of the personal commitment of the staff. It is not reasonable to expect people to do that over a lengthy period. In every area in which people work for the disabled, they work a number of hours outside their ordinary working hours. In Government and voluntary agencies the staff become committed and dedicated. Because there is understaffing, they throw their whole Uves into the job. The result is that they have to get out of their jobs after five years because they have burnt themselves out and they have exhausted their talents. I would not like to see that happen in the Disabled Persons Service. I urge the Minister to inject additional monetary resources into the service in the next 12 months. Additional human resources should also be provided so that the service can be expanded. It has been drawn to my attention that if someone faces a crisis at the week-end, even though assistance is provided 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, nobody can provide information about emergency home help service. Recently, the child of an acquaintence of mine was disabled and dying. Urgent help at home was needed. No contact could be obtained with anyone during a 48-hour period. That is an area which the Minister could examine so that a Ust of names or organisations is available. For instance, a service is provided by the CWA and the Health Department. However, the type of service to which I have referred is not provided. Perhaps the services provided by VOLCARE could be extended to include emergency home help services. However, I realise the limitations on that organisation. We are running out of volunteers in our society. That is a matter that should be examined by a number of departments working in co-operation with each other. Co-operation is the concern of a number of members of this Assembly. There is dupUcation of services, unnecessary work is done by various departments, and there is a lack of services in many areas because nobody reaUy knows what anyone else is doing in relation to the delivery of welfare services, particularly for the disabled. I am delighted that the Minister is attempting to find out who does what, where they do it, when they do it and how people can get access to it and how the Government can co-ordinate its service delivery and also work with voluntary agencies to see that their service delivery is co-ordinated with that of the Government. Nothing irritates me more than to see voluntary agencies and the Government doing the same work when there are people in desperate need. Nbbody wants to know about the parents with chUdren who are profoundly handicapped and who are bed-bound or wheelchair-bound. The Government cannot cope on its own. The voluntary agencies do not want to know about it. Because nobody knows who is or who is not providing the service, nobody ends up providing the service.

That issue should be carefuUy considered by the Minister and his department. I sincerely hope that they receive the co-operatiOn that they deserve from other Government departments. If other departments, such as the Department of Health and the Department of Education, are involved, they have a moral responsibility to co-operate with any inquiries that are undertaken. , - I wish to comment on an area that has a very special interest for me in my electorate. In the Department of Children's Services there is a very clear lack of facilities that provide real assistance for adolescent females in Queensland, It is a matter that has concerned me for some time, A decade ago various churches and voluntary organisations provided facilities for girls who "got into trouble" In those days, church homes and organisational centres also took girls who were having problems within their families where there was abuse or neglect by parents. The Department of Children's Services was then able to find suitable placements for girls whom I would Uke to refer to as "at risk" I wish to refer to a couple of examples in my electorate, particularly one that I regard OS appalling, A family got in touch with a member of ParUament, who then got in touch with me because the girl's famUy lived in my electorate, to say Mr Hooper: Why don't you put a bit of oomph into your speech? SuK>ly (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2579

Mrs NELSON: Perhaps U is the audience. I am not getting any stimulation from the audience. Mr Hooper: I am not getting any stimulation, Mrs NELSON: I do not think the member for Archerfield has ever required it; he acts on instinct alone. This story does not need any oomph put into it; it is a tragic story. This lass was not wanted by her mother or by her father. Their marriage broke up, they spUt up and went their separate ways. Neither of them wanted the girl. The fact that she was their daughter was quite irrelevant to them. Is that enough oomph for the member for Archerfield? Mr Hooper: It's not too bad. Mrs NELSON: That is good. The girl was sent to live with her grandparents, who were very elderly and really did not have the capacity to cope with her. She was just attaining adolescence and had aU the emotional vulnerabiUty of chUdren of that age. Her grandparents spent a fair bit of time explaining to her that it was very difficult for them to look after her. She developed quite a significant guiU complex and, at the ripe old age of 13^ years, decided that she would get a job so that she could help bring money into the house. She loved her grandparents dearly. It was quite illegal for her to be employed. Nevertheless, she got a job. She looked older than 13i years of age, and the employer did not check her age. The girl then realised that she could earn money from working whereas she could not earn any at school, so she began to neglect her schoolwork. One of her teachers sought ray help. The girl started to play truant. She was a bright girl and she could have had a good academic future. Next, the girl was seduced by the person who employed her. Her grandparents became quite desperate about her moral welfare, so they approached a member of Parliament for help, I called m the people from the Crisis Care Unit, who were quhe prepared to take the child into their care for her own protection. They had found a place for her to go, and I think that she spent about 12 hours away from her grandparents' home. The team from Crisis Oire was contacted by the social worker in charge of the girl. That person was most upset at the fact that somebody else had interfered. She said, "Look, everything is fine. I am looking after this girl. There is no need for her to be taken away from her natural environment," As if there was anything natural about her environment! The girl was taken from care and put back with her grandparents, where she was supposed to be kept under strict observation by various officers of the department. She ended up leaving school and working for the employer. She became involved whh a group of people, left home, and is now pregnant. The end of the story is quite predictable. She is about 15 years of age, has left school and is now expecting a child. The officers of the department had failed to come to grips with what is a serious problem for adolescent girls. There is not really anywhere satisfactory for them to go, apart from the Wilson Youth Hospital, which at best can be described as counter-productive for any adolescent female, I recognise the problems that departmental officers have in placing adolescent females. Although there may be beds that they can occupy, the places in which those beds are located simply are not appropriate for girls at risk, Mr Davis; You are 100 per cent wrong. We have organised a home for girls like that.

Mrs NELSON: Who are "we"? Mr Davis: The community at Windsor. Mrs NELSON: How many beds does the place have? Mr Davis: Half a dozen, and a couple are spare. 2580 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Mrs NELSON: The point I am trymg to make, if the honourable member for Brisbane Central is interested, is that there is a continual gap between the number of beds that are avaUable and the number that are needed. There are always beds available and, superficially, it would appear that there is no need for them. However, the officers in the department adopt a philosophical approach to the problem and claim that they should not take the gifls out of their natural envirMunent, Because of the inappropriate nature of such institutions, there are always vacancies in them. The honourable member for Brisbane Clentral mentioned an institution that has six beds. The place might have six beds, but there is probably a need for 50 or 60 beds. The WUson Youth Hospital has about 20 beds occupied and 32 are available regularly. However, the departmental officers wUl not allocate girls to those beds. Some girls are difficult and emotionally unstable. Another case in my electorate concerns a girl who over a lengthy period has had to Uve with a dmnken, abusive father who physically abuses her, and a series of so-called step-mothers. The chUd is too terrified to go home from school. The school staff have had to ring one of the girl's so-called parents and demand that someone collect her from school. She does not want to go home from school. However, nobody wiU take her from her natural environment. Apparently the departmental officers do not want to break the bond that exists between her and her parents. So much for the bond! She is terrified of her parents and does not want anything to do with them. She wants to get away and start a life of her own. We as a Government have a responsibility to ensure that chUdren are not separated from their natural environment when it is in their best interests; but when it is in their best interests that they be seperated, we should provide facilities that are suitably super­ vised, adequately staffed and properly funded, I hope that the Minister and his department look into that problem as a matter of urgency. It is not just a problem that concerns girls; it also concerns adolescent boys at risk. It is a seperate problem altogether from homeless youth, I am referring to kids living under very difficult circumstances, either in their parents' home or in a home in which there is a de facto relationship, who need the care and protection of the department. The obsession about the natural enviroment arises mainly from training programs in the social work department at the University of Queensland, which are based on experience in Massachusetts, Nobody has bothered to find out that the Massachusetts experience, on which the whole social work course at the University of Queensland is based, was such a disaster that all the legislation had to be repealed, Mr R, J, Gibbs: Half of them should not be advisers in the community, • Mrs NELSON: Exactly, I suspect that many of them need help themselves. Frankly, I think it is time that we examined the whole approach that is adopted to the care and protection of adolescents because if ever people need fences round them and guidance it is adolescent children. The final area that I wish to address is prisons, I wish to speak briefly about the need for training prison officers and the need for better rehabUitation training programs in prisons. Many accusations have been made about Queensland prisons, not by people in Queensland but by the so-called experts from the South, who say from the comfort of their home States, particularly New South Wales and Victoria, that our prisons are repressive, regressive, autocratic, old-fashioned and archiac. However, when one compares the way in which Queensland prisoners are fed, clothed and housed and the kind of work that is available to them, one finds that our prisons shape up very weU, However, that does not mean that they shape up well enough, and I am not handing out any bouquets. There are two ways in which our prisons could be made to shape up better. Firstly, much better training programs should be provided for prison officers, I think that the prison officers themselves would make that request, Mr Davis interjected. Mrs NELSON: If the honourable member had been listening with both ears instead of one, he would have heard me say that better training programs are needed. Mr Frawley: Do you think that his IQ would be high enough for him to become a prison officer? aipjrfy (Estunates) 23 November 1982 2581

Mrs NELSON: I do not know about his IQ, but he has a definite hearing problem, which might prevent his being employed as a prison officer, I know that the Minister is looking at this matter and that his department is developing staff courses in the various prisons, I am sure that that wUl go a long way towards improving the quality of prison Ufe, I now wish to make a comment about the speech of the member for Caboolture, I am about to come to verbal blows with him, I do not agree with the absolute tripe that he uttered about hanging and flogging, Mr Frawley: You are a do-gooder, Mrs NELSON: I am not a do-gooder. People have been put in prison, but they have not served their fuU sentence. Imprisonment is the punishment. Deprivation of Uberties is the punishment. Prisoners are deprived of their liberty, which is their greatest freedom. One death cannot be justified by another. Instead of talk about whipping, flogging and hanging, we should ensure that prisoners serve their fuU sentence. The number of punishments that have been meted out in the past five or six years for serious offences in this State Mr Davis: You are not in favour of parole? Mrs NELSON: I am in favour of probation as an alternative to imprisonment, and to parole as a remission, but I believe that people who commit serious crimes, such as armed robbery, rape and murder should serve substantial sentences, Coinmunity service orders are superb for first and minor offenders; but when somebody has reaUy offended against the law of the State, the punishment should be obvious and it should be long term. That is where we have made the mistake. We have gone soft on the terms that people serve in prison. Prisoners ought to have the opportunity for rehabilitation, (Time expired.) Mr McLEAN (Bulimba) (3,5 p,m,): I would Uke to bring the debate back to a balanced footing, I assure the Minister that I am not here to praise him or the policies of his Government, It was amazing to witness the white-washing exercise that the Minister for Welfare Services engaged in when speaking about the efforts of the Goverament, In my opinion, its efforts in the welfare field can be compared with those in the 1950s, There are so many areas in which no progress has been made, ^ I reaUse that being Minister for Welfare Services in a National-Liberal Party Government would not be an easy task. The welfare platform of both parties is almost non-existent. It is a weight he carries round his neck and it is a part of government that he has to wear. The policies of the Liberal and National Parties in the welfare area never have been and never wdU be of a standard expected by the people of AustraUa. Mr Prentice: That is patent nonsense. Mr McLEAN: It is a fact and it is proved by the Government's efforts over the last ^ years in the welfare area. The Minister's effort before lunch was a very feeble one. In my opinion, his statements about what the Government is doing in the welfare field were hypocritical. There needs to oe much more put into welfare. As I see it, the needs have never been greater, Austraha is suffering from its worst economic cUmate for many years. The Federal uoverament is composed of the same parties that are governing this State and has been proven to be completely incompetent in the mnning of the country. It is a Government Wat IS completely heartless. Its policies for running Australia are hopeless. As a result, many people are suffering, with the consequence that welfare services wiU come under enormous strain, hieh t "^ ^°°^ ** ^°™® °^ '*® problems we are fadng, Homelessness is probably at its are nVnh^M ^''"' ^°^^^y ^ becoming more and more common every day. Social problems prooably at an all-time high. There are inequaUties that should not exist. Most of 2582 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates). that vrill be worsened by the ever-increasing unemployment in the community, Eveiy day of the week I—and I am sure that every other member of the Assembly is in the same position—come in contact with the problems of the aged, the youth and the children in the community. Other members have already spoken about some of the problems facing children in the community today. There are also the problems encountered by single parents and by the handicapped. One could go on and on. Hypocritically, this Government says that it is trying to do something to overcome the problems in a humane way. Welfare services cover a wide field. In a 20-minute speech, one finds it very difficuh to determine the aspect on which one should concentrate. Welfare services range from emergency relief through to children's services, famUy assistance, housing and women's refuges, I find it difficult to choose one of those to begin with. As I see U, never has the need been so great for welfare services in so many areas, A direct, positive approach must be taken by Goveraments to the provision of welfare services. The requirement for them is great now but it wiU certainly become even greater. Never before has there been such need for both State and Federal Governments to give top priority to welfare services. They have an enormous responsibUity to ensure that the aged, the disabled, supporting parents, the unemployed or the underprivUeged at least have an opportunity to share in the essentials that should be taken for granted in this country. Adequate housing is one. Adequate health care, education and child care should also be considered as essential. In this country people should have sufficient money to ensure that they do not live in poverty. Everybody is entitled to equality of life, but certainly some people do not have that at present. Governments at Federal and State levels have a responsibUity to ensure that welfare systems are designed to allow people to be protected and to be given their just opportunities within society. The Queensland Goverament does not see welfare services as a priority. Services provided in Queensland compare very unfavourably with those provided in other States, and later I will make comparisons. The Minister, with the aid of his well-oUed propaganda machine, has made promise after promise. All forms of the media continually report the promises made by the Minister for Welfare Services. However, to date none of those promises seems to have borae any fruit. The problems that have existed in the State for many years are now highlighted by the fact that Australia has the highest unemployment rate since the Depression years. Record unemployment rates have been achieved very easily by the Liberal-National Party coalition Goveraments at both the State and Federal level. Unemployment, with its associated worries and sadness, is now being experienced by over 500 000 Australians, and that figure wiU certainly double within the next 12 months. Mr Davis: That is only the number registered. Mr McLEAN: Yes, The real figure is much higher than that, and even that figure, as I said, will double within 12 months. The Federal Government does not seem to be overly worried about that, and members of this Government express their pride in the fact that Queensland's unemployment rate is ,02 lower than the national average, While I am on that subject, I point out that I read in the Press recently that, even though the unemployment figures now stand at 500 000, the Federal Liberal-National Country Party Government is allowing another 31000 migrants into Australia in this financial year. They will either share in the country's unemployment or take a few more jobs from Australians—^I do not know which. The alarming unemployment figures wiU lead to a massive drain on welfare senices and eventually many organisations wUl not be able to cope. Action must be taken now, otherwise more people wiU suffer unnecessary hardship. Obviously other States have realised the urgency of the present need; as yet the Queensland Government has not moved. The Minister very cleverly makes promise after promise of great improvements in many welfare areas, but, as Isaid, there are very few results, I now wish to give an example of the hypocrisy that is displayed in the never-ending chain of media propaganda put out by the Minister, In early November, in a "Sunday Sun" article about latchkey children, the Minister said that a massive new plan was being launched by the Department of Welfare Services to prevent latchkey children from tunung into juvenile criminals. The article continued— "Welfare Services Minister Mr Terry White said they were setting up four additional supervised playgrounds to look after thousands of children left on their own because their parents worked. Supfdy (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2583

He blamed the spiralling crime rate on the fact that chUdren were left to their own devices after school and during holidays. Mr White said the eight existing supervised playgrounds in the State weren't anywhere near enough to cope with the ever-increasing number of latch-key children. 'Many of these chUdren will end up juvenUe delinquents if supervised recreation areas aren't set up,' he said." I agree with those sentiments expressed by the Minister, That is an essential move. However, the statistics reveal that it is not a massive new plan. In fact, in 1981-82, $215,000 was spent on that area of welfare, and in 1982-83 the figure wiU be $235,000, That very small increase of $20,000 is not enough to cover the rising costs that have to be met by the present projects, let alone enough to fund the further four projects that were mentioned in that Press article. In real terms, an increase of that nature is not enough to keep one juvenile in gaol for a year. On numerous occasions the Minister has misled the people of Queensland with his Press statements. Unfortunately, the example that I have given is only one of many.

The Queensland School Vacation Care Program is struggling to survive at present because of a lack of funds. It is a very worthwhile program, and in today's society it is absolutely rital that it be continued and, indeed, expanded. The Federal Government's funding for this program has not risen in the past two years. There are some 37 programs in Queensland operating on a budget of $182,000, and once again I am told that all funds are provided by the Commonwealth. I would be interested to hear whether this is true when the Minister replies. If not, what money is allocated by the Queensland Government? .

There is a great need for these programs to be extended, and unless action is taken to provide the necessary help, some of the existing programs will be in danger of not being able to continue. I am told that the staff in most of these programs are underpaid to a great extent and that faciUties are extremely inadequate. I would appreciate the Minister's comments on that point, too. I would like to compare the Queensland position with that of New South Wales, where some 201 programs operate. That State matches the Cbmmonwealth contribution on a doUar-for-dollar basis. New South Wales spends half a million doUars or more, yet the Queensland Government does not spent one cent. Surely that is contrary to the tales we in Queensland are constantly being told. One could say that the Minister's announcement of a massive new plan is nothing short of a farce.

Another area in which I feel this Government is failing miserably is that of pubUc information. With the enormous social problems that exist today, the Goverament has a responsibility to keep the general pubUc fully aware of the resources and facilities that are available. People must know their rights. Before any welfare system can possibly work effectively and perform the duties and services that it is designed for the people must be made fuUy aware of them. There is only one Citizens Advice Bureau operating in Queensland at present, and even though h is performing a necessary and important public service it does not receive one cent of Goverament money. That organisation has 22 branches throughout Queensland and struggles along performing a vital service through donations and reliance on very dedicated voluntary workers. When asked by the member for South Brisbane would he give funding to the organisation, the Minister replied that money was not the answer. I would like to know what is the answer when the organisation has to pay telephone, electricity and other bills. The Government must recognise that there is a very real need for these types of services. At present the people of Queensland are poorly informed about where to go or what to do when unexpected problems arise. An example of that is the article from which I quoted earlier in which the Minister said that few parents realized that the playgrounds were available and were free to children aged from five to 17 years. The need for community information is not reserved tor the urgent problems faced by so many people today. All people should be fully aware of their rights and entitlements. To enable them to get the right information at the right time this type of service must be available to people at an easily accessible place. The 2584 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Goverament could play a vital role in providing this type of assistance. There would be a two-fold effect, because the Government would get a feedback of information that could save Government departments many hours of work. It would certainly allow for the coUection of statistics that would highUght inadequacies and areas of need. If we again look at the input in other States in the area of welfare assistance, Queensland once more shows up in a very poor light. In Victoria, for instance, the Community Information Program is co-ordinated within the Victorian Human Serrices Information System. The successful development, of the system involves bringmg together the combined resources of Goverament agencies, community organisations, citizens adrioe bureaus, libraries and other information services. The Welfare Department in Victoria is one of the agencies actively siqiporting the development of this program, A computerised data base has been established. It presently holds information on 3 000 organisatbns proriding an estimated 15 000 services. How does Queensland's record compare with that? Very badly, I am afraid. In 1981-82 the New South Wales Welfare Department funded the wages of a co-ordinatoT in 130 neighbourhood centres at a cost of $1.4m. The New South Wales Welfare Department also funds five regional information centres, each at a level of up to $35,(X)0, In 1981-82 a special information program, which caters specifically for certain women's groups and tenants' assistance groups was funded to the extent of $223,500, The (^eensland Government, and the Minister for Welfare Services should hang their heads in shame at the pathetic efforts in Queensland in the area of welfare. When I am offering criticism I think I should point out that the ALP has firm, positive poUcies on welfare. We beUeve our policies are humane and could weU work, Mr FitzGerald: Where wiU you get the money from? Mr McLEAN: We wiU find the money. It is there. We may allot dUferent priorities. The Government has the money, but it uses it in different areas, areas that are well removed from people's welfare. Labor believes that equitable access to welfare services is the fundamental right of all citizens, A State Labor Government wiU work towards eradicating inequality, dis­ crimination and prejudice, as well as the stmctures that promote them. Labor believes that welfare spending should not be cut back when it is most needed. Labor, in Govermnent, will take a new approach to the planning and deUvering of services that wiU work, thanks to co-operation and consultation between Goveraments and groups within the community that are affected by the service. Labor wiU create a department of community development to incorporate existing services, under a division of community services and social development, which will be responsible for initiating and assisting in the development of community prc^rams. Since the days of the Depression, 50 years ago, Australia has never had a greater need for a humane approach by Governments in the welfare area. The National and Liberal Parties do not have the right feeling. Their policies do not include a humane aipproach to the problems confronting more and more people every day. The performance of the Federal Government is nothing short of pathetic. It is probably the worst national Government in Australia's history. Mr FitzGerald interjected. Mr McLEAN: Is the honourable member trying to divorce himself from the Federal Government? Government members repeatedly try to divorce themselves from the Fraser Government? Does the honourable member feel that Fraser is doing weU? Mr FitzGerald: I wUl stick Iqr it. Mr McLEAN: That is good to hear. At the present time unemployment is at an all-time high. In the next 12 months, it will double, AU the other mequalities in this country can be traced to the boardrooms and convention rooms of the National and Liberal Party supporters. Both parties should hang their heads in shame because of their efforts in the welfare field. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2585

Mr FITZGERALD (Lockyer) (3,24 p,m,): I enter the debate on the Welfare Estimates with pleasure. After having listened to what I can only describe as tripe from Opposition members, I am thankful that when tripe is served up it is usually garnished with plenty of parsley. It is hard to believe that Opposition members can indulge in so much tripe, I am sure that it wiU be rejected later. It is condemnation of the Government, It is as constractive as Deen Brothers in their recent early morning exercise. It has nothing constructive about it whatsoever, I point out to the member for Bulimba that the services of a welfare department cannot be carried out effiiciently without a strong economic base, which is fundamental to the philosophy of Government members. I know that U is not fundamental to the philosophy espoused by the Opposition. The Opposition beUeves that aU that is needed is a cheque book. As I said before, "Where wUl the Opposition get its money from?" The Mmister has presented his Estimates in a constructive way. A White Paper on welfare services has been pubUshed and legislation wiU be introduced. There wUl be community involvement. People in every region wiU be trying to assist the Government to provide welfare services. It is absolutely impossible for any Government to provide aU the social welfare needs demanded by the ALP. I do not beUeve that it would be beneficial in the long term. Many people receive welfare benefits. In many instances they need welfare benefits through no fault of their own. Other people are receiving welfare benefits because they have placed themselves in a position in which they have to receive them. No blame should be attached to them; no judgment should be made of them. Assistance and help should be provided to those people who qualify for it. The community should be encouraged to get behind all persons receiving welfare service benefits to assist them to hoe that row which, at times, is very tough. The demands that the Opposition would place on the Treasury would bankrupt this State and nation, R would only continue for a few years because the country would become bankrupt and we would not have the wherewithal to meet the demands that are presently being met, I have a very strong philosophical belief that the basis of our society is the family. It has been so for generations. This State was founded on good, solid family Ufe, The acceptance of a soUd family is something of which we can be proud. In the future, the basis of our society wUl be the same. Wherever possible, the Government should encourage a strong family Ufe. We must be conscious of the fact that our society is changing. We cannot look at a society that existed 20, 30 or 40 years ago and say that our society is the same today. We aU realise that expectations change, people change, and that young people grow up. It is a fact of life that young people, particularly adolescents, wish to chart a course different from that adopted by their parents and grandparents. Since I have been a member of ParUament, I have noticed that a number of young couples considering maniage may have been leading a Ufe that others would not have accepted as being a strong, traditional famUy Ufe. Eventually, after experimenting with some of the new ideas and ideals that different people put forward, they come back with one basic consideration. They wish to provide a strong home environment for their chUdren. Their innermost desire is to provide a strong base and a /amily environment in which to rear their children. Many people would say that our society is going dovnihiU or that it is going to the dogs. They ask, "Where are the young people going today?" I would remind the people who think that way that they should look around the society as a whole and see exactly where it is going. They wiU be proud of what is happening. I am sure that the Government will continue to base its welfare programs on the family. I want to dweU on one aspect of welfare programs, namely, foster care. On 23 October I attended a seminar in Toowoomba for foster parents. It was one of the most enlightening seminars that I have attended. It was attended by quite a few parents who have foster children. They discussed the problems and pleasures associated with sharing parenthood with natural parents, with the co-operation of the Department of Children's Services, They were able to give other persons at the seminar the background to foster care. The Toowoomba area contains quite a few foster homes and foster children. The whole idea of current foster care practice is to assist natural families during a time of crisis by providing substitute families for children for a specific period. The emphasis IS placed on keeping chUdren in contact with their families so that their return to their family Is faciUtated, Many people hiave incorrectly assumed that a foster home is a place in which children are dumped, left or hidden from society. That is not tme, Foster parents are co-operating 51593-87 2586 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates) with the Department of Children's Services in assisting children to be reunited eventually with their natural parents, if possible, A child in foster care receives many benefits. He is allowed to develop within a normal family environment, to share in the intimacy and stabUity of family life and to receive individual attention and care from specific parent figures. The fact that foster care is practised on a regional basis means that a child may be placed in the general area of his or her home, I am pleased to see regionaUsation. It is important that a child in Toowoomba whose parents have separated, who cannot be looked after adequately by one parent, and who is placed in foster care, should be able to receive such care in Toowoomba, Similarly, such a child in a countiy area should be allowed to remain in that environment, Foster care is not finding a home for the child; rather it is providing temporary assistance so that the child can eventually be reunited with his or her parents. Encouragement should be given to make foster care community-based rather than institution-based. The community are involved directly in the care and support of needy children and their famiUes, Foster care is a practical appUcation of the belief that the family unit and parent model is the most beneficial for rearing of children. The department, too, benefits from the foster care system. It is able to place children in famiUes that are matched and are able to meet particular needs. I emphasise that more and more families should be encouraged to accept the challenge and become foster famUies. There are various types of foster children. There are those who suddenly find them­ selves in a situation in which emergency care is heeded; there are pre-adoptiye children who are taken into the care of the Department of Children's Services until they are adopted out; there are children who are in foster care for a short term of from six to 18 months; there are those who are placed in foster care for a lengthy term; and there are those who are placed in foster care for an indefinite period. In all, 48 children live in 33 foster homes in the Toowoon(iba area, and that is a remarkable achievement for the citizens of Toowoomba who liave offered to take foster chUdren. At present, 28 children live in l8 foster bomes in the electorate of Lockyer, It is pleasing to see that people are wilUng to accept those children into their homes. Many people in the community ask, "Why do couples take foster children?" I do not think that those couples can really answer that question. My observation is that they have very strong maternal and paternal instincts, I do not think that it is a matter of helping the commumty; they do it for themselves, because they have that intense instinct. Those people must have immense love. They like to see children reared in a family environment, and they like to accept the challenge of providing that family environment. They know that it will not be easy, particularly if they have children of their own, because there are always problems when human beings come together. There is always friction and tension in those situations. Those people are wilUng to foster another person's child, and they deserve the greatest accolades that we can give them. The whole community should get behind them and support them. The settling-in period for a foster chUd may be extremely difficult. Generally, it is a shock for a child to change from one situation to another. He is frustrated and angry about what has happened to him. His Ufe is being torn apart. Eventually, he decides to make the best of the situation. Those are some of the problems that face foster parents and the other members of a family. Foster parents also have to consider the natural parents. The natural father or mother may visit the child; and quite often they come with a different partner. They also may not be the sort of people whh whom the foster parents would normaUy associate. Foster parents must remember that the other people are the child's natural parents and that they must respect them for what they are. They also have to work in with the child guidance officer, because it is important that the child guidance officer have a rapport with the foster child. Shared parenthood is a challenge, and those people who have accepted U deserve the best wishes of all people in the community. To me, that is genuine welfare assistance; they are helping others in the community. ' Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2587

Women who accept pre-adoptive children must have a heart of gold. They become very attached to the child, but they know that after some weeks or some months the child wiU have to go to adoptive parents. People who foster an adolescent child know that that child is going through a very difficuU period in his life and wUl take a lot of looking after. The real story wUl be told when the foster children grow up and look back on their lives. We aU must face the fact that we had no say in the choice of our parents. Our whole community is based on family Ufe, If foster children come to love and respect their foster parents, as they mature they wUl look back and put together the story of their lives. They will be able to say, "Somebody loved me," It is wonderful for those who have been foster children to be able to say when they are grandparents, "Yes, I was a foster child. I have been in a number of homes. Those people looked after me." It is a story of love that the Department of Welfare Services should be proud to encourage in our society. 1 raise another aspect of looking after homeless chUdren. I lend my support to the foundation of the Toowoomba Youth Service, which is a group formed to assist homeless youth in that area. A number of organisations have been able to obtain from the Toowoomba City CouncU a home near the centre of the city. It is being run for a trial 12-month period to care for homeless youth. I congratulate the Toowoomba City Council for its foresight in co-operating vrith that youth service. It is very important that there be such a centre for young people who either wish to have a look at the outside world or do not get on with their parents. Many children in those circumstances think the solution is to leave home. Available information shows that a large number of young people, particularly round the age of 16 years, are in that category. From January 1981 to May 1982 the St Vincent de Paul Hostel in Toowoomba looked after 30 guests between the ages of 14 and 18 years. Just under 50 per cent of the guests came more than once, so a considerable number stayed there only once. Communities should be encouraged to provide shelters for young people in such circumstances. They should not judge or condemn. They should be there to give them a meal and somewhere to sleep. If young people are not lectured or preached to, they may look for assistance. If they ask what they should do, the battle is over. Their confidence has been earned and they may be able to be guided. That youth service should receive every encouragement from people in the Toowoomba area. In the very short time left to me I pay tribute to the chUd-care homes in the electorate of tockyer, which are aU in Toowoomba. There is the Fatima Home for Children, which is a cluster famUy group of homes in South Street run by the Sisters of Mercy, I have been there a number of times, and my visits have always been pleasant outings. It is administered by the Conferences of the St Vincent de Paul Society in Toowoomba, Horton Village at the top of the range is run by the Salvation Army, It is a similar complex, with a parent caring for a number of chUdren in family surroundings. The children are well cared for and have a sense of pride. They become members of a family again. The Specht Family Home in Lovett Street is a single-unit, family-group home conducted by the Uniting Church, Mr Hooper: You are having a dollar each way. You are giving all the religions a go. Mr FITZGERALD: It is true that the religious denominations have to a great extent co-operated throughout Queensland with the Department of Welfare Services, That is to be encouraged. They do an excellent job and I pay tribute to them. Although we do not wish tb irnpcse religion on our Society-^ahd the people I am speaking of certainly do not—the encouragement of children to live in the natural family environment is to be welcomed. It is obvious from talking to the children that they have a pride in themselves. Those in the role of parents are also proud, (Time expired.) 1

Mr INNES (Sherwood) (3.45 p.m.): I rise to take part in this debate today to commend the Minister and his department for the work carried out last year and to find items that are available for comment and criticism—albeit destructive as weU as constructive. Nothing in human affairs and nothing that is limited by an imperfect world or by a Budget can ever rise above levels of critidsm, appraisal or comment. But one has to look at the totality to see what has been achieved and what has been proposed. 2588 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

The debate on behalf of the Opposition was commenced by the honourable member for Wynnum who homed in on the corrective services aspect of the Mmister's department. If 'ever there was an area that was comparatively immune from the type of criticism that one normaUy expects from the Opposition, I would have thought that that above all others would have been an area that perhaps least of aU could come in for critical comment. -Mr Shaw: What did I say that was wrong? Mr INNES: If one considers the honourable member's contribution to the debate, one wUl see that he had a reasonable semblance of a starting place for criticism and appraisal, but what the honourable member did not do was to look at the broadest ramifications of the area in question. One becomes inured to the type of contribution that so often Comes from that side of the Chamber, with the great comparisons between the misery of Queensland and the glory of Victoria and New South Wales—particularly NeW South Wales, It is amazing how one can speak of the comparative success of corrective services and fail to speak about New South Wales. Mr White: New South Wales ought to be condemned, Mr INNES: The history of prisons and corrective services generally in New South Wales is absolutely appalling. It is a running sore in criminal matters in Australia, Mr Scassola: Isn't that the State where they have more escapees than inmates? Mr INNES: Yes, more escapees than inmates, and one fears that it wUl have more comptrollers of corrective services than inmates, Mr HOOPER: I rise to a point of order, Mr MiUer, I draw your attention to the state of the Committee. , . (Quomm formed,) Mr INNES: Shortly I will deal with the specifics of. the contribution made by the honourable member for Wynnum, but when one looks at the entire picture one must commend the Minister and those responsible for corrective services for their record last year. The Minister rightly referred to. the special facility for young males. The standard of the prisons for adults in Queensland is demonstrative pf the enlightened approach which is taken in the State, and no doUbt in conjunction with the condition of the prisons, which also reflects an enlightened approach, it results in the law of statistics of violenpe, crime and destruction of property within the State's prisons and the fewer escapes from lawful custody. The fact that there are not enlightened, modern steps being taken to ensure the ndn-imprisOriihent of first offenders is no detraction from that, I have had the good fortune to go to Etna Creek with the Minister, I have seen the conditions in the new women's section of the Brisbane Prison and I have seen the conditions in the gaol generaUy. That is not to say that in a progressive world where things are getting progressively older and other things are being progressively renewed there is not a need to improve the remand section of the Brisbane Prison or improve conditions at Stuart Prison, Townsville. But the condition of the most of the gaols in this State is excellent by comparison with anything that exists in other States and in particular in New South Wales and Victoria. We have,the Palen Creek and Numimbah prison farms, the Wacol Prison and the Woodford Prison, which the honourable member for Caboolture has mentioned. The conditions, the state pL the buUdings and the general circumstances in those places is indicative of an enlightened approach. And an enlightened approach is what received national approval in a report on the television program "The Reporters" on the special facility for young males. The member for Wynnum homed in on what he said was the increase in the number of persons on probation or parole. As I understand the figures, the increase of lOSi refers not only to persons on parole or probationw The vast majority are persons under community service orders. I do not think the honourable member for Wynnum is so new in his spokesmanship on this matter that he would have failed to know and understand that the extension of community service orders has taken place most dramatically in the past two years, and the advocacy of these orders has been a particUltH' feature of the present Minister's term of office. ' Community service orders make up' the great bulk Supply (Estunates) 23 November 1982 2589 of the increase referred to by the member for Wynnum, and they are not as demanding of time and do not require the extent of the faciUties of the type which the honourable member suggested. That is not to say that one would not like to see a reduction in the work-load in anything which involves person-to-person care or any social work aspect. I suppose some people might say that some persons concerned with social work will not be happy untU there is one social worker for every other Australian, but there has to be a cost benefit and the reality is that last year only 8 per cent of persons breached their parole conditions, and those breaches could relate to quite minute conditions of reporting; they could be minor offending of conditions in relation to parole on a major charge. Breaches can involve reporting, residential requirements and a variety of matters which do not involve the commission of further crime. The general success rate is seen from the overall report in relation to this aspect of the Minister's portfoUo, The overview is significantly better conditions of incarceration than in other States, dramatically better records in relation to action and activities and breaches of the peace in the detention centres and statistics which would indicate that our level of recidivism is no greater than the best in the rest of Australia, Anybody who has seen the work, or photographs of the work, performed under community service orders realises that they are one of the best forms of punishment. Recently, I had the good fortune to represent the Minister in the Wolston electorate at the Good Neighbourhood Centre. Everyone agreed that the quaUty of work done by the young men in pamting the interior of the building was exceUent, Mr R. J. Gibbs: As that is in my electorate, I think it is very rude of you to even mention it. I intended speaking about it, Mr INNES: I wiU attempt not to trespass too far, I used it only as an iUustration, When I visited the Etna Creek Prison, I saw the type of young men who get into strife when they are bored or drunk and destroy something. I can think of nothing better than diverting their energies at the week-end and at other times to creating something of quality in which they have pride. By doing that, their instinct to destroy will be reduced, as wiU their instinct to act destructively towards society. On occasions when something is opened or used, it is desirable that they be invited. It helps them gain a sense of relevance in the community, which, no doubt, they have not had in the past. They commit offences because of a sense of alienation. If what they do is approved and admired, they are less Ukely to repeat then- offences, I commend the Minister and his department on the policies adopted, I am sure that the statistics prove the department's success in that area. The honourable member for Bulimba extolled the virtues of the State ALP's platform. He suggested that it was a blueprint—an enlightened way to go. The ALP's State platform has some nice come-^long phrases. Labor believes that by reorganisation and rationaUsation of existing services, a far more comprehensive service wiU be made available to the community without necessarUy increasing costs. Labor's policy contains a litany of proposed expenses. It is fuU of fine words and emotions. Anybody with compassion and sympathy wiU support numerous points in the ALP policy. However, we must look at the reality of what is proposed. Labor's poUcy includes a very innocent phrase in these words— "Through rationaUsation of existing services, a far more comprehensive service wiU be made available to the community without necessarily increasing costs," If we look at the nitty-gritty, we realise that everything proposed means vast expenditure. In relation to family and child welfare. Labor's policy states— "EstabUshment of neighbourhood child care centres staffed by professional workers in chUd care Establishment of chUd care facUities on all State Government industrial estates and all employers, either individually or as groups, be given incentive and encouraged to provide child care facUities," Labor's platform includes the estabUshment of chUd care facilities for Government employees. It also provides for— "Establishment of youth recreational centres for care facUities and hoUdays. 2590 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

A future Labor Government wiU investigate the need for night care faciUties," In the area of juvenile justice. Labor's platform refers to— "Specialised judges to be appointed to the Children's Court. All juveniles should be given legal representation. It should be mandatory that there be an independent adult who is known to the child Where children are found guUty by the court, a pre-sentence report must be presented before judgment is handed down," That involves the suggestion that present welfare procedures wUl be aboUshed, No doubt they wUl be replaced by other welfare procedures in assessing when children require care, I have taken those extracts from a litany of proposals that involve, essentially, a vast expenditure on bricks and mortar, and in terms of an increasing number of professional workers. Nobody denies that social welfare is an area in which there is special expertise and training. But special expertise and training is not necessary for one's efforts to be effective. Labor's policy involves a constant denigration of the voluntary participant and the volunteer group, the people whom this Government has deliberately set out to reinforce, assist and support, I bring this phrase to the attention of the Committee— "Labor believes that only by the provision of universal services can there be a reduction of social stigma which is attached to the receipt of community welfare services," In one way that is an understandable sentiment. But in the way in which it is projected, that is what really underlies us aU, Everything is rammed down everybody's neck and an aU-embracing system is set up so that people within it cannot say, "It is specially for us." Universal systems are universally costly; they must be. Total systems are totally costly. They are an impossible burden for society to assume. The misfortune is that we cannot get over the reaUties of some people's circumstances. There is no need for stigma to be attached to the various circumstances in which people find themselves. I do not find that use of the word "aged" engenders a sense of stigma. I do not find that the use of the word "disabled" involves for me. or, I hope, for any other person, a projection of a stigmatised group. The fact that people are Aboriginal, tall, thin or fat, does not have to attract a sense of stigma. Anything that sets out to eradicate a sense of stigma—^we do not want anybody to say, "It is specially directed to us,"—involves a universal system that involves universal bureaucracy and universal costs. That cannot be avoided. There is an interesting phrase that elaborates on that. It states— "AUhough Labor beUeveS that the provision- of weffare services on a universal basis as a fundamental right ." Mr Hooper: This is a scissors and paste speech. You are making a speech out of the Labor Party's poUcy. Mr INNES: I am using the scissors, I am leaving the paste to the honourable member. Mr DAVIS: I rise to a point of order. Rulings have been made by the Chairman that during an Estimates debate a member may speak only to the Estimates, not to the need for legislation, which is what the member for Sherwood is domg. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Powell): Order! There is no point of order. , Mr INNES: One can always tell when one is getting near the mark in this Oiamber, because barren points of order are taken. In the same way that the member for BuUmba suggested that the Labor Party had some universal panacea for the problems of social welfare, so I look more particulany at that proposal and attempt to appraise it from one point of view of the finances involved, which, of course, is the purpose of this debate. It refers to groups. It states that migrants. Aborigines, the handicapped and disabled, single-parent fMnilies, low-income groups, minority groups, the aged and infirm have speoid, needs and require special .as*'"*":^ It goes on to say, "UntU such time as the stmctures which promote these ™^"?Jrt! are eradicated, specialist services should be avaUable to those who need them, wna Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2591

is the inequality that wiU be eradicated by restructuring society? Are we going to stop people being migrants. Aborigines, handicapped, single parents, minority groups, aged or Infirm? That is the stupidity of the exercise in which we are involved. It is an attempt to avoid reaUty and the truth by suggesting that restructuring can avoid circumstances that, by their very essence, import some sort of distinction—for example, in the case of the aged and the infirm, the migrant who does not speak English— and necessarily involve, and cannot avoid involving, some special problems that require

(Time expired,) Mr HOOPER (Archerfield) (4,4 p,m,): I would like to confine my remarks to the prisons section of the Welfare Estimates, It is my intention to expose some of the maladministrations in the Prisons Department, The Minister at present is sitting on a powder keg, whether he knows it or not. It is a cold, hard fact of life that there is gross inefficiency in the system. Honourable Members interjected. Mr HOOPER: Honourable members may laugh. They should Usten to my speech. If we begin at the very foundation of the prisons system, the Prisons Act, we find that it has not been rewritten since 1958. What is happening is that the department is running on amendments to the amendments. That is certainly not a very satisfactory situation in the 1980s, What has happened is that since 1974 numerous attempts have been made to rewrite the Act. To that end, one officer—not the same officer all the time—has been working on the project fuU time. It seems to me that within the department there is not the expertise necessary to rewrite the Act, Where is the expertise to come from? If it is not vrithin the department, an attempt wiU have to be made to find it outside the department. One of the problems is that the department has been under the control of a succession of Liberal Ministers who have realised very early that there is very little political kudos to be gained from prisons and have wanted to get away as quickly as possible from the respon­ sibility for prisons. The National Party Ministers are far too smart to accept responsibility for prisons. The present Minister is only a new boy. As I have said before, he gets snowed. He is certainly not overburdened with qualified advisers—or with brains, I might add—and he has not come to grips with the prisons section of his portfolio. Before I move on to other matters, I want to suggest some changes that are long overdue and should be included when the Prisons Act is finally rewritten, I call for a separate section for persons convicted of so-called victimless crimes, I have always believed that persons sent to prison for those crimes should not be forced to mix with hardened criminals such as murderers, rapists and professional felons. The people I am talking about are those who are sent to prison for such things as non-payment of traffic fines and driving under the influence of liquor. In these times, when so many people are on welfare payments, the payment of fines is becoming a real hardship and a serious problem. As an example—^in my electorate, a lady who receives a supporting mother's benefit had a traffic fine imposed on her, and as no-one will lend her the money she wiU eventually have to go to prison, I Was pleased to read in this morning's "(Zourier-Mail" that Cabinet has approved the Mmister's recommendation concerning community service orders, I a:pplaud that move, belated though it is. However, let me urge the Minister to be cautious and think the matter through in relation to the organisations to which people can be assigned. The word "assigned"" had dreadful connotations for our ancestors who were assigned to masters Whose only interest ''^fP^ofit, I would not like to be assigned to the tender mercies of some of the so-called service rl"™,"'at were mentioned by the Minister in his statement that appeared in "The Courier- Mail this morning. From my dealing with some of the people whom he mentioned, I oelieve that persons assigned to those people could well find themselves working for some of them in a business enterprise, I can think of a host of far more worthy organ- ff H"' ^^als on Wheels springs readily to mind—it is always short of drivers and oitsiders-and the Salvation Army, Life Line and the St Vincent de Paul Society are rthy organisations. They are much closer to people who are in real need than are some 2592 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates) of the service clubs mentioned by the Minister, who like to see their names plastered all over the countryside on projects that are paid for by other people's money. Again I urge the Minister to think the matter through, Mr Innes: Which organisations? Mr HOOPER: The honourable member can work that out for himself. He has a law degree. If he cannot work it out, God help some of his clients. My understanding of the position is that under the Prisons Act a prisoner is a prisoner- full stop! There is no way that a person convicted and committed to prison for a victimless crime can be kept apart from other prisoners, Mr Innes: It is not like you not to have the guts to name those organisations, Mr HOOPER: I shall let the honourable member work it out. He should read the Minister's statement in this morning's "Courier-Mail" and my speech. As I was saying, there is no way that a person convicted of a victimless crime can be kept apart from other prisoners. The key to the solution lies in having to rethink about the definition of "prisoner" and in providing for the reclassification of prisoners. I suggest to the Minister that as the economy continues to get worse we can expect to see more people go to prison for the non-payment of fines. So now is the time to be thinking of a solution to the problem. The next section under the prisons portfoUo that I want to deal with is the Remand Section. At present, prisoners on remand are held at Boggo Road. Under the system of British justice under which we live^the Premier never tires of teUing us of its benefits— a person is considered innocent untU he is proven guilty. It seems to me that we do not carry that out by putting a prisoner on remand into Boggo Road gaol until his or her trial. We are all aware of the lengthy delays that occur at present in bringing people to trial, and nobody would be more aware of that than my learned friend the honourable member for Sherwood. The new women's prison would have made an ideal reihand section. There is no doubt that there is an under-use of the women's prison. There is very little reference to the women's prison in the annual report of the ComptroUer-General of Prisons. Why? That is a question that I would like the Minister to answer when he replies to the debate. The former chief superintendent of the Brisbane Prison, Mr Clyde Lang, recently pomted that out in a statement in the "Sunday Sun" of 31 October this year. He believes that the new $3,8m women's prison should never haye been buiU in its present form. I agree with the sentiments that he expressed, that a garden-settlement type prison could have been constructed at Wacol. In my mind, there is no need for tiiis expensive prison, with aU sorts of maximum security posts, particularly when it is remembered that the Minister himself has admitted that there would not be more than half a dozen women prisoner? who could be classified as maximum-security risks. The other 30 or so prisoners are in gaol for minor offences. So the new section is wastefiUly inefficient. Another valid point that Mr Lang made—I am surprised that the mUitant feminbts have not hit on it—is that women prisoners have to spend aU their sentence in prison. Male prisoners may be sent to the State prison farms at Palen Creek and Numinbah. A new women's prison of the type that I have mentioned would have kiUed two birds with the one stone; it would have provided a prison, but an open one. As the Minister weU knows, about a fortnight ago I visited the women's prison. I only have to be in the prisons for about 10 minutes and the phones mn hot. I will be visiting the prison again to see a certain female prisoner, and no doubt the Minister for Welfare Services and the Minister for PoUce wiU be notUied, At present, most of the female prisoners are prostitutes and dmnks, and many of them should not be in prison, I nOw wish to refer to the system of rostering at the prisons. The rosters in the department have been a festering sore for years. In recent years, more industrial strife and bittemess have been caused by the present rosters and the rostering system than anything else. The present rosters are inadequate and' inefficient, but no-one seems to be able to come to grips with the problem. The rosters are like the Act itself. Like Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2593

ToDsy they have just grown, I even understand that outside consultants have been ca^'in at high cost, but they have not been able to come up with any satisfactory sohitions, I am beginning to come to the conclusion that there is no avenue for any creative thought to emerge in the department. The top echelon of the department seems to have become fossUised in its thinking, I suggest to the Minister that it might be time for him to take the bit between his teeth and make a couple of bold decisions. Now that the chief supermtendent has retired, the time is ripe to give serious thought to his replacement from outside the service, if need be. One instance of that immediately comes to mind. Some of the longer-serving policemen to whom I have spoken recently referred to a decision made by the Labor Government in the early 1940s. It appointed a gentleman from the Taxation Department, Mr Cec CarroU, as the Commissioner of Police in Queensland, Some senior police officers will teU honourable members that he was probably one of the most successful and honest police commissioners in this State, The second move would be to give some of the middle-range prison officers an opportunity to prove what they can do, I know that many of them feel that if they have to wait for promotion to senior positions on the basis of seniority they may as well get out. Those are the men who can see the problems and appreciate what waste and discontent they are causing; but they are unable to do anything constructive to remedy the problems. It most certainly could not hurt to give them a go at solving the problems facing the prison service and the running of prisons generally, I say in aU fairness to the Minister that I know he has a difficult portfolio, Mr Davis: He is trying to get out of it, Mr HOOPER: No doubt he is, and I do not blame him for that, because he has a can of worms. As I said earlier in my speech, ever since the coalition Government took office in 1957, not one National Party Minister has even had the responsibUity for prisons. There are no votes in it. Unfortunately, the average person in the community does not care one whit about the plight of prisoners. Nevertheless, one has to realise that although a person who is sent to prison might lose his civU rights, he certainly should not lose his human rights, I pose that question to the Minister and to the Committee, I think that something has to be done about the prison system. It certainly leaves a lot to be desired. I know that some fine new buildings have been constructed. The new Brisbane Women's Prison is certainly first class, but it is a complete and utter waste. Mr Innes: Which of the National Party portfolios do you think is comparable with Welfare Services? Mr HOOPER: That makes it a bit hard. I suppose that, if one put aU the National Party Ministers together, one would be lucky to cut a good toe-nail out of the lot of them. Some of the suggestions I have made will mean that a few noses will be put out of joint, but the people who advise the Minister have proved that they are not so crash hot at prison administration, anyway; so a breath of fresh air through the corridors of power in the Prisons Department will not do much harm. The most controversial part of my speech I am coming to now. The next subject I wish to raise conceras homosexuality in prisons, Mr Booth: I thought you would never get there, Mr HOOPER: The honourable member for Warwick is rather an attractive young fellow, I hope that they never send him to prison. He wouldn't want to go into the shower ahd pick up the soap. From the outset, I make it perfectly clear that I could not care one scrap about people's personal sexual preferences, but I do feel that the Minister has a big problem when he allows homosexuality among prison staff, I know that it has caused a lot of problems in the prison system, particularly when senior officers, both male and female. 2594 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

are Concerned. It is Uke giving a bank robber the keys to the bank vault, I have been advised by numerous staff that it causes serious dissension among the staff, as those people tend to play favourites. They might play other games as weU; I do not know. It is my opinion that such people should not be in "in charge" positions. I have some letters in my possession that I wiU read, I wiU tell the Minister privately the names of those concerned, I understand that Ministers as far back as the late John Herbert were aware of letters of this type but did nothing about it. The first letter I read is from one senior male prison officer to another senior male prison officer, I see that the two officers of the department are starting to sit up and take a bit of notice, although they probably expected it. The letter says^ "My Darling AI, Good-night, my sweet gentle lover, please for both our sakes try and hold up to the present strain we are both under, I love you and must be with you my sweet, I don't want you to drop your bundle over our temporary separation. Cuddle my back as you always do, I will be with you in spirit if not in body. Love me and Good Night, Yours China," Dr Scott-Young: Who did you write that to? Mr HOOPER: The next is a letter that the honourable member for Townsville South wrote to the member for Windsor, • . , "My Darlmg, I enjoyed the interlude just completed more than you will ever know. How I have been looking forward to it all morning, I hope I can make you feel loved and loving tonight, I will be seeing you again in a moment or two, I worship you lover. Yours Tom." On the other side is— "Don't be mad at me Darling, I love you and am looking forward to seeing you. Your Lover Tom," It has a number of kisses on it, Mr Davis interjected, Mr HOOPER: I am told that the gentleman was in the Air Force during the war and that he was a rear gunner, I wiU have to table the next letter, I cannot read the writing. It would take me too long. However, what I do have is a card showing a nice pussy-cat whh a jeweUed collar round the neck. The Minister would well know, as a supposedly erudite Minister, that the gaol jargon for a homosexual is a cat. What the card has is— "A heartful of wishes For a dayful of fun And a year that is really A wonderful one! With aU my love and Feline affections to my Guy Love China," I repeat that there is a problem, I wUl give the names of those two prison officers privately, I hope that the Minister takes some action. Both are, stiU in the service in very high positions. They stiU go away on hoUdays together. Mr Davis: Are they engaged?' Mr HOOPER: I think it has gone a little further than that. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2595

Another point that disturbs me is; the use of dogs in prisons. The prison that springs readily to mind is Woodford, It is my opinion that there is no place in any prison for the duties of prison officers to be taken over by dogs. I was once told by a prison officer at Woodford that one dog is equal to five prison officers. What a stupid statement lor a prison officer to make. If we followed that argument to its logical conclusion, we could sack half of the prison officers and rejrface them with dogs. Could we imagine the Honourable the Minister for Local Government, Main Roads and Police being replaced by a Dobermann? I thiiik most honourable members would agree that dogs have their place in the PbUce Force, particularly for drug detection and finding missing persons, but most certainly they should not be in prisons, Mr Innes: You use dogs all the time, don't you? Mr HOOPER: Prior to entering Parliament, when the honourable member for Sherwood was practising at the bar—the one at the Grosvenor, I think it is called—he was well- known for his use of dogs in his legal practice, Mr Prest: He has stiU got a few tied up, Mr HOOPER: The honourable member for Port Curtis is not wrong, I find the use of dogs in prisons barbarous. Even some of the worst prisons in the American deep south have given away the use of dogs. On a visit to the Woodford Prison a couple of years ago I was told of a prisoner who had to defend himself against a dog. He killed it with a potato masher. Needless to say, that did not go over well with the administration and he was punished accordingly. The Minister states that he is a compassionate, man, so he should immediately abolish the practice of dogs replacing prison ofiicers in their duties. The use of dogs shows a lack of administration and a barbarous streak in the present administration at Woodford. As a matter of fact, one of the prison officers, whom I named as one of the homosexual lovers, is stationed at Woodford Prison. . I hope my comments have been of some constructive assistance. I have visited most of the State's prisons and I am aware of the shortcomings in their administration. I only hope the Minister will take heed of my contribution. Mr STEPHAN (Gympie) (4.22 p.m.): After listening to members opposite during this deb,i:„ I liave gained the very distinct impression that they are trying to distance themselves as much as possible from the Minister's department. That is the only reason I can see for some of the comments and suggestions that have been made. I listened with interest to the member for Archerfield and I note that he still seems to be quite an expert on both prisons and police. He certainly spent a fair amount of time on matters affecting those areas. I was just wondering how long it took him to write those letters that he read. The member for Bulimba tried to say that the Minister's portfoUo is a forgotten area of Government, but that is far from the truth. Indeed, I compUment the Minister on the way he has handled his portfolio. I realise that this is the first time that he has handled the debate on his Estimates so I imagine that he has a great deal of enthusiasm for his portfolio and is wondering just what Opposition members wiU throw up at him. To date there has been nothing that would concern him, and no doubt he is capable of handling any matters that are raised. In terms of the number of staff and allocation from the Consolidated Revenue Fund, the Department of Welfare Services is one of the biggest State Government depart­ ments, which is something that should be emphasised. The doubling or even trebling of the size of the Department of ChUdren's Services would be a frightening intrusion of Government into the lives of Queenslanders. If such a thing were to happen the programs that resulted would be ad hoc and fragmented. The same old argument that is dished up by the Labor Party—that is the expenditure of more money—is certainly not the answer to welfare problems. For the information of Opposition members, who seem to be a little at sea, I will list some of the things that are covered by the Department of Children's Services: juvenile justice, the early childhood resource unit, homemaker service, service to famUies, special needs unit, residential care, proctor program, child pro­ tection, grants and subsidies program, child care grants in women's refuges, consumer credit and counselling, grants to charitable institutions, foster care and the youth services scheme. They are only some of the forms of assistance made avaUable to very large 2596 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

sections of the community. When I was a youth in a country area we did not have as much time on our hands as the youth of today do and we certainly did not appear to get into as much trouble as happens at present. Because of the problems faced by the youth of today, many of them require extra assistance from the Crovernment, The Department of Children's Services provides family support for a number of children in the Gympie area, but I am not sure how the number compares with other areas. There are 10 children under the supervision of the director, one chUd under the care and control of the director, three under the care, control and supervision of the diiector and 40 under the care and prdtection of the director. The most interesting aspect of the department's work, particulariy in the Gympie area, is that U is placing a great deal of emphasis on prevention rather than cure and is trying to maintain children in their home enviroment. One of the prevention aspects that is being utilised, and utilised quite well, is the Homemaker Service, It is a reasonably new service in my area and is functioning very weU, The homemaker is not involved in the statutory work of the department; she works in the field in her own special way to help restore or strengthen the famUy unk. She must be able to be accepted by the family as a caring, friendly neighbour who wUl help them to improve their skills in child care and home management and make Ufe more comfort­ able. The family is assisted to make use of community resources to meet its needs and generally improve its coping abUity so that assistance may eventually be wUhdrawn. U must always be realised that the Homeinaker Service will not be there for ever; it is there to assist famUies to help themselveis, to get them through a crisis situation in which they may find themselves and help them develop confidence and self-esteem. Some of the assistance given by the Homemaker Service is in ordinary day-to-day situations that most wives and mothers take for granted; assistance in getting children to pre-school or child- minding centres and carrying out the ordinary household chores that seem to be left to pUe up and never get done. If a job is left for one day it seems to be left for day after day and eventuaUy becomes a mountain instead of a molehill. In that way the Homemaker Service is helping far more than most people realise,

I take this opportunity to mention the family group home in Gympie that has almost been completed. Built under the auspices of the Anglican Church, the family group home is designed to cope with what are thought to be emerging ne«is. It wiU be opened in Febraary next year. The tendered capital cost of this home is $114,000, It wiU attract a Government capital subsidy of $57,000, A capital subsidy will also be paid on furnish­ ings and fittings. That is one way of assisting community minded groups. Usually church groups are involved and the Government helps them to get off the ground projects which otherwise would not even be thought of. The family group home in Gympie will be used in the role of a receiving and assessing centre and will provide a specialised home for those ohildren who cannot be either returned to theiir natural famUy or placed in foster care within the community. The AngUcan Church in Gympie is to be congratulated on its entry into the field of the provision of famUy group homes. Its home wUl cater for eight people. It wUl be the first AngUcan family group home within the archdiocese of Brisbane and the 37th single unit family group home in the State, It is anticipated that another family group home in another area of the State wUl be opened later this financial year. The term "single unit family group home" is used to differentiate this type of home from what are caUed, "Clustered family group homes". The Peiirson homes at Goodwood are a cluster of two family group homes, and the Eidsvold Christian Centre is a cluster of three family group homes. Many other cluster or family group homes exist in the State but the ones I have referred to are being well used and maintained. The honourable member for South Brisbane issued a pamphlet entitled "Welfare Services: Queensland's Forgotten Problem" In it he said that Queensland was short of family group homes. Indeed, our record is good and I believe that the scheme wUl be quickly . expanded. The family group homes are expensive to run but they offer high quality of care "to children. As I said, the Anglican community in Gymjrfe is to be congratulated on " its efforts, I look forward to a continuation of the good work and the expertise channelled into this project. supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2597

The Youth Leadership Awards Scheme which operated a couple of years ago, but was not in vogue last year, is very important. In my electorate a joungyoung^ ^^c^.!^'?lass who? ^"!"f»^attended, had nothmg but praise for it and what she received from it. She is presently *'**Amerk!a""on "a Rotary schoiarship. The course gave her a lot of confidence and intimulate d her enthusiasm to serve the community. The requests from member organisations of tbe Youth CouncU of Queensland to ororide training for youth leadership, to help overcome the problems confronting youth today prompted considerable research into the leadership courses. Unemployment, drug abuse family breakdown and peer-group pressures are presenting today's youth with more dramatic and severe problems than those faced by previous generations. The Youth CouncU conceived the idea that training of youth leaders should provide skills that are immediately usable and an awareness that wUl be needed on their return to their individual organisations. The two-week residential school provided training in both theory and practical skills for those who are currently active in organisations as leaders, associate leaders or designate leaders. It wUl not be much help if they are unable to return to their groups and organisations and put their skiUs to use. The course was aimed at improving leadership style and gainmg a better understanding of youth and its needs and how to keep youth groups together and growing. We often hear the cry that youth has nothing to do, that it is bored and does not know where to turn, yet so many youth organisations and groups are crying out for young people to become part of them. If leaders and other members of groups can be helped and kept together it will go a long way towards helping our youth to overcome its problems. Community service orders have been working well. The honourable member for Archerfield said that he thought community service orders were being abused. The main beneficiary under community service orders is the community. They take the weight off people in community service clubs, who often give up time which they can iU afford. Community service orders offer an alternative to imprisonment. Projects that would be suitable include programs organised by service organisations such as Apex and Rotary Clubs, the Red Cross Society, the Salvation Army, Life Line and, in my area, the Aged Persons Home and the Show Society, The work that is being done at the aged persons home is being supervised by the chairman of the committee attached to the aged persons home. The work that has been carried out has contributed to the maintenance of the building. The aged persons home is operated by a committee. Although costs worry the operators at the home, the assistance provided under the community service orders helps to keep that home operating. The Minister referred to the number of service orders that have been made and to the number of orders that have been completed successfully. From the figures available to me, it can be seen that out of a total of more than 1 000 orders that were made, only 46 breaches occurred. That is a very small percentage, and we can be pleased with the success of the scheme. One of the persons who worked under a community service order was transferred from his job to a place north of Gympie, He was keen to complete his service order before he left the district. There are over 40 places at which community service orders may be made. However, in circumstances where a person is required to travel 100 miles or more to take part in the scheme, there are difficulties involved. It was understandable that the person to whom I have referred was anxious to complete his order before he shifted from the Gympie area. When the scheme was commenced it was stressed that one of its main objectives was to provide a further sentencing option, which was particularly appropriate for dealing with offenders who might otherwise have been imprisoned for a short period. Quite clearly, the courts are using the community service orders as a sentencing option. On many occasions it is used instead of a fine or to add further dimension to the making of the probation order. The Government believes that, generally speaking, welfare belongs within the broad framework of Government services, incentives and development initiatives. Within the community there are some workers who are prepared to devote their time to assisting youth. I point out that youth are not the only ones who find themselves in difficulty. Support is being provided by means of grants, subsidies and endowments from the Department 2598 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

of Welfare Services. Money is being allocated to surf life-saving clubs and youth groups to provide facUities, Youth are being encouraged to become involved in the community and to help their fellow-man. The clubs appreciate the assistance that is provided to them. It enables them to provide a service and to keep their equipment in reasonable condition. It should be borne in mind that there is a great need for the services of life-saving clubs. Other areas of concern have been highUghted by members of the Opposition, They seem to speak and then leave the Chamber, There is great concern in the community for youth generally who find themselves in crisis situations. Times have changed. Things are different now from what they were when I was a young man. Because of the home environment, some young people feel that they are not wanted or that they are not encouraged to come home. They seek refuge under bridgesi, in tents or on the river bank, I was surprised to learn that some people-ih the Gympie area have found themselves in such a predicament. Because of that, I shall be calling a meeting to co-ordinate the services provided by the various community groups in the Gympie area. That meeting will be designed to give support and protection to some of the yoiing people who are faced with a crisis. If we can do anything to help them and to protect them even for a night or two, untU such time as the crisis passes, we will be doing something worth while. I know that the community of Gympie will put aU their weight behind me. The State prison farms play an important role in allowing prisoners to be confined not in a true prison situation. The prisoners on the farms appreciate having an opportunity to take part in the work involved. They display a keen interest in it. Many of them Jeam new skUls whUe they are on the prison farms. Some of them, after they are released, continue to work in the calling in which they have received training. (Time expired.) Mr DAVIS (Brisbane Central) (4.41 p.m.): T have pleasure in speaking to the Estimates of the Department of Welfare Services. I am concerned about the way in which some Ministers use public money only for the purpose of furthering their political ambitions. Unfortunately, the Minister for Welfare Services falls into that category. He cannot help putting his photograph on every piece of Uterature that is published and circulated by his department. Honourable Members interjected. Mr DAVIS: I am not saying anything unkind. All I want to do is to highlight the trend foUowed by Ministers. The Minister for Welfare Services is one of the leading lights in the Liberal Party. He has a tendency to use his department purely and simply for self-glorification instead of for the purpose for which it was set up. That is a pity. I do not blame Liberal Ministers for trying to create a trendy image and to separate themselves from the hayseed image of their National Party colleagues, but they are plundering the public purse. Mr White: Read today's editorial in the "Telegraph" I think it contains a message for you. Mr DAVIS: I am pleased that the Minister has jogged my memory concerning the editorial in today's "Telegraph" I am not sure whether the editorials are published by the Minister's advertising agency, which I know he has to improve his image, or are published as a result of the large amount of advertising that the Minister does through the media. If he continues to plunder the public purse to pay for newspaper advertisements, naturally he wiU get good editorials. I shall cite an example, I refer to the opening of the Release to Work Hostel in Kennigo Street in Fortitude Valley, in my electorate, A huge amount of money was spent on the Release to Work Hostel, and I do not think that expenditure was necessary, Mr White: Are you opposed to it? Mr DAVIS: No, The oldest trick in the book is to ask, "Are you opposed to it?" I am critical of the amount of money that was spent on it, A lesser amount of money could have been spent on it. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2599

I hate raising this matter again, because I do not want honourable members to think that I have a thing about names on plaques. However, recently I was watching the 6 o'clock news on television wheh reference was made to Kennigo Street, One of the members of my family asked, "Isrft that in your electorate?" I said, "Yes, We must watch to see what they are opening this time." Sure enough, there was the Minister for Welfare Services opening another building. My name was on the plaque, but somebody forgot to invite me to the opening. That is the sort of blunder to which Opposition members have become accustomed. I was in the process of writing a blistering letter to the Minister when I received an apology from him, and I thank him for it, Mr White: Your name was on the plaque. Mr DAVIS: Yes, A tear came to my eye to think that the Government had finally gone that far, I am pleased that the member for Caboolture reminded the Committee of the period in the '70s when I was Opposition spokesman on welfare matters, I say in aU modesty that because of my constant attack on the Government and the Department of Children's Services, the Westbrook Training Centre and other centres have been cleaned up. Although there was some laughter in the Chamber today when reference was made to community tooth-brushes, things of that sort happened. For a period, the previous Minister for Welfare Services barred me from visiting Westbrook, I was able to visit Westbrook only when it was open pubUc day, I am the first to admU that the department deserves credit for resolving the problems at Westbrook, At the same time, I must give credit to the newspapers that assisted me in my campaign. Another point that I have raised time and time again concerns applicants for parole. Prisoners, after serving half their sentence, are eligible to apply for parole, I am stUl convinced that they are entitled, if they wish, to be represented by people from outside the prison at hearings before the Parole Board, That is what happens in other countries. Some people say, "No, the system that we have been operating for many years is a good one." 1 believe that there is room for improvement. When a prisoner appUes for parole the board's personnel can act only on the papers given to them by departmental officers. Neither the prisoner nor his representative can cross-examine. In all justice, the prison should at least have a "mouthpiece", if I could use that expression—a legal representative—at the meeting of the board, I will not name him, but a number of years ago after visiting Brisbane Prison I mentioned that to the ComptroUer-General of Prisons, He said that he made recommendations, I said to him, "Your recommendation is the recommendation of officers below you; so it goes down the Une, You personally may not know the prisoner, with the result that the outcome rests purely on the prison officers," In so many cases, the Parole Board becomes just a mbber stamp. That is wrong, Mr FitzGerald: I know it is wrong. You're wrong there, aren't you?

Mr DAVIS: I am not wrong in that. The member for Lockyer is a member of the National Party, which is the former Country Party—a party of hayseeds. I don't think he has ever visited a prison, Mr FitzGerald: Wrong, Mr DAVIS: He must have gone past it at high speed. National Party members just do not understand social welfare problems. They do not understand prisons. They do not understand anything other than the price of lucerne or onions. If my suggestions were followed, that would be a step in the right direction. The Minister, even though he likes to have his advertising agent plant his photograph aU over the place, is a progressive Minister—if there is such a thing in this Government, I mention an organisation in my electorate with which I have been associated. It is under the chairmanship and the administration of Father Pat Tynan of the Windsor Parish of Holy Rosary. It is an organisation that practises what it preaches. It has been involved in many community welfare projects, I think the format wUl be changed next year, but over the last six or seven years, in association with the Department of Children's Services, it has run a home for young women. 2600 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

The group was also instrumental in establishing one of the first homes for homeless youth. It was in the vanguard of those thinking along such Unes when it was considered that there was no problem. In association with other churches and community organisations in the area, it started with one small house in Lutwyche Road, Earlier this year the Minister officiaUy opened a larger property in Windsor that is doing a tremendous amount of good work for homeless youth. It is a problem that will continue to grow as unemployment increases. Unemployment is not confined to the city. Equally, it affects country areas. The result wiU be that more and more young people will come to the city. Because of the spiralling costs of accommodation and the fact that those people have no money, very few places can look after them. The youngsters that I have met at the shelter are there through no fault of their own. The Press likes to mention dole bludgers, and so on, but those young people just cannot get a job. Because their families live in the country, there is no parental control. There must be some place in which they can get shelter, I wiU be fair and say that the Minister, as have his advisers and the Federal Govern­ ment, has taken an interest in this matter and tried to do something about it. Because the problem is multiplying many tinies, more must be done. The problem is not only with young men but also, because they find themselves facing similar problems, with young women. No matter which way the problem iS looked at, unless we of our generation do something to help these problem children—that is all they are; they are only 15, 16 and 17 years of age—they will become problem adults who are put into prison at Boggo Road or in some other place, I agree with the comments of the member for Archerfield about the Brisbane Women's Prison, Although I was one of the first to advocate that something should be done about the old relic of a building adjacent to the Brisbane Prison that housed the women's section, I think that the new building consists of too much brick and mortar. It is aU very well to be wise with hindsight, but perhaps more of a garden atmosphere could have been created. Although the new facUity has greater capacity. I certainly hope that it is never filled, I am pleased that the Minister issued a Parliamentary White Paper on FamUy Welfare. A "White" Paper! Why was it not a Green Paper? Obviously that name has to be pushed forward aU the time. Mr White: If you had been diligent, you would have known that a Green Paper was issued first and it was foUowed by a White Paper, Mr DAVIS: It may only be coincidence, but a "White" Paper was issued, I suppose one has to be fair and say that time and time again the Opposition has criticised the Government for not putting out such papers, which is done in almost every other Pariia­ ment that follows the Westminster system. When members of this Assembly attend the House of Commons, they come back and say that Queensland should adopt the West­ minister system; that there should be select committees; that there should be no Dorothy Dix questions; and that the system should not be prostituted by lengthy ministerial statements. However once they return to the Government side of the Chamber, they certainly do not buck their parties. I am sure that when you, Mr Akers, go overseas, you wUl come back with ideas that will be put into operation. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Akers): Order! One of those is that honourable members should stick to the subject. Mr DAVIS: I have to agree with that, but I had to make that ^ood and pertinent point. I am pleased to see that some progress has been made on the waiting-lists of those who wish to adopt children. In conclusion 5 Mr MiUiner: We wiU give you an extension of time, Mr DAViS: No, I do not want that because other Opposition members wish to join in the debate. Over the years, I have been meticulous in keeping a record of the length of Ministers' speeches to their Estimates, In this session the times have been reasonable. SuRrfy (Estunates) 23 November 1982 2601

Most of the ministerial speeches lasted for about 20 or 30 minutes, but this Minister spoke for 50 minutes, which means that one Opposition member wiU probably not be able to speak in the debate. That is bad, particularly when we hear so much about the wonderful Westminster system, I suggest that the Estimates debate should consist of the Minister making a speech and the Committee forming itself into a group and querying departmental heads on the figures set out in the Estimates, For instance, we could ask, "Why did you buUd that great women's prison complex?" It would be interesting to hear the ComptroUer-General's reply. Other questions could be asked on the policy of the Department of Children's Services or the Goverament's planning poUcy; Mr MUliner: Like how much was given to John Garnsey? Mr DAVIS: I beUeve that he is the Minister's advertising man. Mr White: It is not so long ago that the Labor Party was very fond of Mr Garnsey. Mr DAVIS: I am not criticising Mr Garnsey because he is the Minister's advertising man. He is extremely good at his job, I wish the Minister weU with his advertising in his attempt to promote himself towards the deputy leadership of the Liberal Party, The Minister has had a meteoric rise and if he wants to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to improve his image, and if he has the money, let him spend it, (Time expired,) Mr LESTER (Peak Downs) (5.2 p.m.): I am very pleased to be able to support the Estimates of the Minister for Welfare Services. There is no doubt that he has tried very hard to bring help and care at reasonable cost to as many families as possible, 1 add my personal thanks to the Minister for the times that he has visited my electorate, particularly Emerald and the Central Highlands area. At one stage it was suggested that the office of the Department of Children's Services in Emerald would be closed. The report was false, but the Minister was prepared, on a trip up to the North, to drop in at Emerald and assure everybody that the office would remain open. It is that type of support from the Minister that one appreciates so much, I pay a tribute to the Minister's staff because, with a portfolio as widespread as his, one cannot ring the Minister or his secretary every time one has a problem, I have had to ring people in the various departments and they have given me wonderful help. It is not so much me as a member who benefits from that help; it is the people on whose behalf I make the phone call. They are the ultimate beneficiaries. So I thank those members of the Minister's staff who are here today and ask him to give my heartfelt thanks to the others who have assisted my constituents. Things are a little bit difficult in the economy at present, and that has placed a strain on families. Often, in such times, greater demands are placed on the department. I suggest that the Government has been responding in a very positive way. Whether the Opposition knows it or not, the framing of the Budget involves the making of choices; that is, putting first the most important things that benefit the most people. There are not unUmited resources, although Opposition members tend to think that there are, A good Government allots priorities to get the best deal aU round. It is a fact of life that the ALP tends to do things for political reasons rather than with the idea of helping the most people over the longest time. We are debating the choices—the choices of the Government under these Estimates; the choices of the Govern­ ment as outlined in this debate. The ALP's stance was indicated by its discussion paper, I will devote my attention to that discussion paper for a little while. While we were at school, we learnt about the three Rs, Today there are an additional three Rs, namely responsibility, reasonableness and rationality. In applying those three, we should look at the Government today and compare what it is doing with what the Opposition would do if it were in power. The test of a Budget is how it measures up. The emphasis in this department is to try to satisfy that criterion. In lookmg at responsibility and checking how the Government B acting, we should recognise firstly that the Government's resources are Umited, WUh that m mind, we should work out what we can do and what we cannot do. Even in tne present economic climate the Government has been able to mcrease the allocation •or welfare by 16 per cent. That is weU above the inflation rate. It is clear that the 2602 23 November 1982 SuwJly (Estimates)

Government recognises the importance of welfare and children's services. The Government has worked out what can be done within reasonable bounds. It gives priority to the things that are most needed. Where should the priorities lie? The Government is stressing priorities for the betterment of famUies, It does not believe in fancy priorities. It begins with the famiUes, If the Government, through this department, can make the life of every family a little better, it wiU have achieved a great deal. The Government will be programming its efforts towards the voluntary sector of the community to promote and help the families. It will be fostering and promoting the family groups. That, of course, is with the idea of keeping family groups together, without massive Government hand-outs. If the Government were to go overboard in the welfare field, it would be very likely to get the wrong type of people trying to do the job. The Government wiU get the best results by helpmg people along, not by overdoing it. The Goverament is encouraging a number of community programs based on voluntary effort. The more community programs that the Governnient can foster, whereby members of the community come together to make life better for others in the community, the closer it wiU be to solving the problems confronting us. In trying to be rational, the Government does not follow the flights of fancy indulged in by the Labor Party, which attempts to satisfy every social whim. The Government is trying to devise an effective mechanism to ensure that money is spent in the most sensible way. When we compare the ALP's proposal with what the Government is trying to do, we see that the ALP's poUcy does not stand up very weU, The ALP does not take into account expenditure constraints on all Governments, It simply wants more money without worrying where it is coming from. The ALP does not care what other departments wiU suffer. Indeed, aU of the ALP policies call for expenditure far above what would be regarded as reasonable expenditure. It would take funds from other departments to do that. A prime example of that can be seen in New South Wales. The Government has overspent on welfare and other areas. It is now trying to cut down on expenditure in the railways, and it is proposing to put off public servants. That State is running into an enormous amount of trouble because it does not have its priorities right. The average pensioner who wants to travel in a train between Sydney and Brisbane wUl not be able to obtain a sleeper. That has resulted from Mr Wran's welfare policies. If somebody wants to travel on the Indian Pacific, only one service per week wiU be provided between Sydney and Broken Hill. The pensioners who use that service will be affected. It is clear that the Government in New South Wales is making an enormous mess of its priorUies, Of course, many innocent people wUl be hurt. The ALP White Paper does not Ust priorities. It just says, "We want more money for everything," That sounds pretty good. However, when somebody has to work out a budget and a program, to simply say, "We want more of everything" will not work. By comparison, the Queensland Goverament has been very responsible and has outlined its priorities and worked towards its objectives by spreading the effects of its programs. The Labor Party's White Paper is somewhat irrational. Where would we be if we piled on expenditure after expenditure and program after program, as is the ALP policy? It has not given thought to the fragmentation, the duplication and the other problems that would be caused. It is only by good management that the Queensland Government is able to continue its programs. The ALP lacks a sense of direction. It has not given any consideration to the Federal areas from which help is received, nor is it worried greatly about dupUcation, The ALP is only worried about votes in the next election, Mr Wran wiU be caught up with in the same way as Mr Whitlam was caught up with when he tried to overdo everything, Mr Cain in Victoria will be caught up with, too. As far as the ALP is concerned,: the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. The ALP's White Paper dupUcates what the State Governments are doing in New South Wales and Victoria. It is a great chronologue of the actions taken by the Governments of New South Wales and Victoria. The White Paper does not state how much we need in Queensland, what we need in Queensland and where we need it; it is only a typographical exercise that states that what is being done in New South Wales and Victoria should be done in Queensland. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2603

It would be a very interesting exercise to cost the ALP programs, but it is not very easy to cost them because they are so vague. I have tried to carry out a costing. Some of the areas are extremely, interesting. Reference is made to assistance to community information centres. In itself, that .is not a bad idea. The Labor Party has referred to community assistance for five different types of infonnation centres. . It begins with reference to grants for citizens' advice bureaus and funds to co-ordinate neighbourhood centres. It wishes to fund community development offices to devlop further neighbourhood centres. It wishes to fund regional information centres and special information centres for special groups of people—women, pensioners, and so on. Surely five different departments are not needed to do the work, I wonder at the wisdom of the Australian Labor Party's policy and the enormous cost to the community that the implementation of that poUcy would entaU, The ALP refers to the setting up of information bureaus. Probably 40 or so would be needed in Queensland. In Victoria, the cost of one such bureau is $13,300 a year The total cost for a year would be approximately $532,000, The Labor Party talks about neighbourhood centres. I suppose it would suggest that 40 such centres are needed in Queensland. In New South Wales, they cost $10,000 each, so the total cost is more than $400,000. The setting up of only two types of centres would cost nearly a miUion dollars. And there are more to come. The ALP refers to the establishment of community development offices, which would cost another $400,000, It proposes an extension pf the regional information services that are being provided through the Department of C3iUdren's Services. The cost of such an extension is about $35,000 a year. As to special groups—the Labor Party would have special groups to deal with women's needs, migrants' needs, disabled persons' needs and other people's needs. That all sounds very good, but it would provide the base for the greatest empire-buUding that I have ever seen. All of the services that the Labor Party calls for are already available in Queensland, whether they are provided through private organisations, the State Government or the Federal Government, I could go outside and obtain aU the information that I need. Yet the ALP wants to embark upon a flamboyant scheme of providing a host of centres to provide information that is already available. The cost would amount to many miUions of doUars. What is needed is not fragmentation of offices, but co-ordination. It is no use having a lot of separate offices trying to work out which will do what and which social workers wiU do what. The Labor Party would have large numbers of social workers running out, cutting across one another's path and costing the taxpayers millions of dollars. The ALP has claimed that Queensland should have Government-funded child-care services. Money would have to be found for all the salaries and operating costs. Anyone who Ustened to the ALP could be forgiven for thinking that Queensland has no child- care centres. Thanks to assistance from the Federal Government, the State Government and voluntary groups, Queensland has approximately 300 child-care centres spread throughout the State. The beauty of those centres is that the mothers themselves are involved and are encouraged to take part in what is going on. Many of them volunteer their services, A very good centre exists in Blackwater, A number of families go along for a certain time each week. The centre has been built up in no uncertain manner. The Minister has visited it and he has seen what it has achieved, at little cost to the taxpayers. If the Government gives people too much money, they become dependent on it. Instead of thinking about what they could do to improve their lot, they go to the Government and say, "Give me, give me, give me," That comment can be said of anyone at any level of society, wliether he be a Government supporter or an ALP supporter. If he gets hand-outs aU the time, he comes to expect them and he does not use his own brains to try to get the best deals. With our economy in its present state we have to ensure that we get the best deal all round and get people to use their brains to try to improve their centres. The Minister has seen the great efforts that the mothers in Blackwater have made. Mr White: It is an example for the rest of the State, 2604 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Mr LESTER: I think so. The Minister Visited the town, and his visit was talked about for quite some time. Children's playgroup centres have been established in Queensland at very Uttle cost. They are a magnificent concept. They enable mothers to get together and supervise their children whUe they are playing. That creates a lot of good friendship and provides a family outing. Quite clearly, the Labor Party is on the wrong track when it says that the Governnient should provide more money for welfare services. The implementation of the ALP program would cost $35m to $40m. How on earth could any Government afford to spend $35m to $40m on welfare services? Of course, that would only be the start. Expenditure would increase year after year, and the (jovernment would be asked to provide more. In Queens­ land, the community is providing those faciUties with a little bit of help from the CJoverament. We only have to look at the voluntary effort that was put into the Commonwealth Games, Members of this Assembly were very proud to see what was going on. Officials, usherettes and many other people gave so much of their time to make the Commonwealth Games a success. That is the concept that we must follow in providing welfare services. (Time expired.) Mr SMITH (Townsville West) (5.23 p.m.): It is appropriate that I should speak in this debate, particularly after hearing the antiquated ravings of the member for Peak Downs. Although any Government would wish to keep expenditure under this portfolio to a minimum, the need for welfare services is becoming greater. There is plenty of evidence to support the view that, increasingly, the responsibility for providing welfare services is being given to the State, That is certainly the aim of the present Federal Government, and it has achieved it, to some extent. In his introductory remarks, the Minister made the point that welfare services have been operating as a separate identity in this State for 10 years. I think that that illustrates the grovi^th and the need in this area, I wish to speak in a fairly parochial way. Although it might be all right for members representing metropolitan seats to speak in general terms, I think that members representing country electorates have to raise problems that affect their own areas, • I wish to speak about the women's shelter at Townsville, which has had a fairly chequered history. It started from very humble beginnings. It did not have much credibility in the community. Now, it is a respected organisation fulfilling a very great need in one of the bigger cities in the State, Recently, it requested the Housing Commission to make a number of homes available to it to assist in placing women for an interim period until they could become ordinary Housing Commission tenants or other alternative accommodation could be found for them. At present, that alternative accommodation is far away. Because of the chronic shortage of housing in Townsville women on pensions find it almost impossible to obtain, at a price they can afford, a flat that is not substandard. The women's shelter organisation has calculated that the pension avaUable to a woman with two chUdren of primary school age, including any rental or guardian aUowances, is $236 per fortnight, based on the pre-Novranber pension figures, whilst her conservatively estimated costs were food, $70, electricity, $15, school necessaries, $4, bus fares, $8, clothes, $3, and personal incidentals, $6, making a total of $106, If to that is added the average rental cost of $120 per fortnight, the amount left is $10.30, to cover the cost of running a car if she has one. In TownsvUle there is certainly- very little public transport. What really knocks a hole in that argument is that it is almost impossible to get accommodation for $60 per week. That example is deficient in that the costs are understated, I contrast it with the Henderson poverty-line report, which estimates that one-third of all income should be allocated to housing, and the Housing Commission's estimate that it ought to be one-quarter. That matter has been debated in this C3iaraber recently. The predicament of families in those circumstances is clearly self-evident. The availability of accommodation can be gauged by rental accoirimodation advertised in the local paper which, after aU, is the market-place. For some months fewer than one 2-bedroom flat a week has become avaUable at a rental of less than $60 per week. Supply (Estunates) 23 November 1982 2605

The Townsville Women's Shelter usually provides temporary accommodation for nn to three weeks whilst a woman is organising new living arrangements. Women are having to wait longer for flats and having to pay a higher proportion of their pensions than in the past. In fact, the percentage has escalated dramatically. Many women have been forced to move into flats that are due for demolition, simply because nothing else is available. That is tragic, I shudder to think that U could happen in Australia, which superficially is so weaUhy, I draw to the attention of Parliament a case that I personaUy can vouch for as having happened recently, A woman moved into a place where the sewerage drain was open. It had been neglected and the owner was not prepared to fix it. Obviously he did liot expect to be able to let the place. The electricity was not connected because the supply authority considered it too dangerous to do so. Women and kids are Uving in places like that. In spUe of what the member for Peak Downs said, someone has to take the responsibility and care for people in those circumstances. To me, decent housing is a basic right. I am not talking about flash housing. For many women, however, it is becoming a privilege to find a reasonably priced flat. I will belt this subject as much as I can. The problem is really not widely understood at present. The sheher is doing aU that it can to accommodate people, but it just does not have enough resources to provide the necessary housing. In a moment I shall point out why I am raising the matter in today's debate. Because accommodation has become almost impossible to obtain in the private sector, the only solution is for more public housing to be made available from Goverament sources. The Victorian Government has recently provided funds so that subsidised housing can be obtained for a number of target groups. Women are one such target group, with women's collectives using the homes as three-quarter-way houses. It is in this field that the Department of Welfare Services^ ought to become involved. By "three-quarter-way houses" I mean the accommodation used by a woman after she leaves a refuge, which we may caU a half-way house, and before she obtains permanent accommodation. Unless that type of accommodation is provided we will become absolutely bogged down. Since July 1981, the New South Wales Government has made $1.4m available for housing through the emergency accommodation unit. Something that is now happening in Townsville might provide the Minister with an opportunky to use some influence on the Housing Commission. As I indicated only last week, some of the Army and Air Force housing is to revert to the Housing Commission. It is low-block accommodation and both the Army and the Air force certainly prefer high-block accommodation. However, it is coming back on to the market and the Minister has an opportunity to make representations to his coUeague the Minister for Works and Housing to accede to a request that some of those houses be made avail­ able as three-quarter-way houses. Without the Minister's support that request wiU prob­ ably faU on deaf ears. The second paragraph of the annual report of the department of Welfare Services gives a clear indication of what the department ought to be doing. It states— "It has been a year of change for the Department. New initiatives introduced reflect the need for the Department to respond to the unprecedented pressure that society m the 1980's is placing on the family unit." Some Government members do not understand those pressures. What has to be recognised is that the famUy unit—t mean the normal famUy unit—may no longer be the traditional family Unit that is portrayed in glossy magizines. That is certainly unde­ sirable and I lament the passing of the normal family unit. It is absolutely essential that we recognise that today's society is the society in which we live, so we have to come to terms with U, Nevertheless, that comment in the report indicates the pressure under which the Department of Welfare Services operates in an effort to cope with the increased demands from community welfare agencies in their attempt to provide urgent assistance to many people—famiUes and individulals—who are forced into these very unfortunate circumstances. It seems highly likely that an ever-increasing number of people wiU find themselves in that category. At the moment Australia has in excess of 500 000 unemployed, Queensland contributes 75 000 of that number. When the school-leavers for 1982 are added and the seasonally adjusted figures are released, the Queensland figure may be even worse, I do not blame the Government for being proud of the net migration to Queensland, The recent 2606 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

figures indicate that, to June 1981, 38 000 people crossed the Queensland border to establish themselves here. Because the cmnch has come in only the last few months, there is no real reason to think that the numbers for 1982 will be significantly less. However, the job growth in Queensland for that period was only 2,3 per cent so, clearly, the migration has out­ stripped the ability of the State to employ those who have come to live here. The Minister would certainly appreciate that that applies further pressure on the welfare system. The increased numbers must be reflected in the amount of money made available for the services for which the Minister is responsible. In addition to migrants coming from other States, a significant number of people are coming from New Zealand, Reluctantly, but very firmly, I add my voice to the suggestion that the time has coine to restrict that migration. The Goverament has fo start looking after those who are already living in Queensland, Australia is no longer experiencing a recession; it has escalated into a depression, Mr Akers: You are not rubbishing all New Zealanders?

Mr SMITH: No, I am not saying that. However, the economy in New Zealand is depressed and the increasing numbers of New Zealanders who are coming to AustraUa are further depressing our economy. They take jobs and, to a large extent, their earnings are repatriated to Ney? Zealand, and that has a deflationary effect on our economy. For the benefit of anybody who wishes to argue with my statement that Australia is experiencing a depression, I point out that a recession has been described as a time when a person's mates are out of work and are looking for assistance through welfare agencies, and a depression is a time when that person is out of work along with his mates, and 1 say that Australia is experiencing a depression, I know from conversations with people involved in welfare work with local churches that most young people passing through TownsvUle in recent weeks and months have been unemployed. They have been just moving through looking for non-existent jobs. Queensland is stUl the only State that does not provide public transport concessions to unemployed persons, unless they are on the way to a job interview. Poverty, unemployment, pensions, homelessness and welfare aU clearly go hand in hand. It is clear from the evidence that a very high proportion of pieople in the Townsville area are on pensions or benefits, particularly unemploynient benefits: ' We have to thank our city councU for some of the reasonable facilities avaUable in the city. It needs to be recognised that Townsville serves a very large population, and that that populktioh is swollen by people who have aU sorts of difficulties. For those reasons the welfare problems are disproportionately high, and I think the same situation would apply further north. As I said, young people come to Townsville looking for jobs. Of course, they find that there are very few jobs avaUable, but they stay on because of the facilities that are available. The climate is congenial, and if one is poor it is more pleasant to try to survive in a warm cUmate than in a cold one. The projected growth rate of the TownsviUe area indicates that the situation wUl worsen, and the need for more Housing Commission rental accommodation is already more than adequately demonstrated. I now want to discuss the role of welfare organisations. The days of voluntary organisations working in the area of community welfare may weU be numbered because of the personal expense of being involved, and the sheer burden of the task. It is already obvious that it is becoming increasingly difficult to get people to assist in a purely voluntary capacity. Many people are prepared to forgo wages, but they look to covering their expenses, and that is certainly not unreasonable. Take the example of Meals on Wheels workers. They wiU give their time and the use of their vehicles, but someone has to pay for their petrol. Community workers are concerned that the pro­ gression, in what has amounted to a hand over of responsibUities from the Federal to the State Government, wUl be carried on, and that the State Government wiU in turn want local government agencies to be responsible for more of this type of work. One of the things that has concerned me in recent years, and particularly since I have become my constituents' representative in this Parliament, is the very complexity of the welfare system, the cross-subsidies and the division of responsibility. It seems to me that a great deal of time, energy and, most certainly, scarce funds must be unnecessarily dissipated in trying to sort out many of those responsibilities, I have certainly mentioned this to the Minister, and I am not suggesting that he is unaware of it. However, it does seem to me Supply (Estunates) 23 November 1982 2607 that in the interests of delivering maximum service for the welfare doUar, there is a much greater need for streamlining, simpUfication and a clear statement of responsibiUties, This is necessary within the department, between departments and between the State and Commonwealth Governments, I do not think I wiU get too much opposition to that assertion. As my time is running out I want to turn to another theme. In one of my first speeches in this Assembly I paid credit to the Minister, At that time I saw him as a Minister administering a difficult portfoUo, and one who received Uttle sympathy from his fellow Cabinet Ministers, particularly National Party Ministers, I was even inclined to the view that the Minister was adopting something like an even-handed policy with respect to his treatment of Government members and members on this side. Even now I am not sure that that assessment was inaccurate, but what I am sure of is that the Minister has taken a definite but different position of late, and I am most disappointed about that. I do not find fault with a member or Minister seeking promotion, but it is certainly very clear at present that there is a power struggle within the Government parties. The Minister for Welfare Services is, shall we say, running with the wets and hunting with the dries, and that has already been covered by one of my colleagues. That is the back­ ground statement to criticisms I offer about the Minister in relation to his handling of certain matters, particularly the appointment of persons to area committees of the Queensland Recreation Council. I must bring up again the fact that, for the sake of sheer poUtical advanage, the Minister displaced Alderman Arthur Strike of the Cairns City CouncU, a man who had held the National Fitness organisation together for many years. In the TownsvUle area. Alderman Ken McElUgott, another man long active in the organisation, was sacked and replaced by a man known to be a Goverament supporter. In addition, other people were placed on the council so that it would be stacked in favour of the Government, Mr White: McElUgott was a paid poUtical stooge of the ALP—paid by the taxpayers and the TownsviUe City CouncU, Mr SMITH: The final act is the displacement of my colleague, the member for Maryborough, Mr Brendan Hansen. In my view, those actions were politically immature, I am sure that the Minister now realises he made a mistake, I said earlier that I was disappointed with the Minister who is administering an area that should be as non-political as possible. Until recently I have treated it in that way. Another example of the Minister's recent poUtical behaviour concerns the provision of funds for the Lifeline organisation in TownsvUle, and the We Care organisation, both of which are located in my electorate. In not channeUing funds to that organisation through me the Minister did not observe the common courtesies. If the Minister does not agree with that, I bring his attention to what happened on Magnetic Island, Dr Scott-Young was invUed to the opening ceremony, and his name was to be on the plaque. We all know now that the Minister was instructed by the Premier to take his name off the plaque. He was embarrassed, Mr WHITE: I rise to a point of order. The honourable member's remark is not true. The matter was not discussed at Cabinet level. It was a genuine oversight. The matter has been rectified. I ask the honourable member to withdraw his remarks. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Jones): Order! The Minister has requested that the remarks be withdrawn. Mr SMITH: I withdraw them. The Minister could have put the matter straight when making his reply. Another man, Mr Bruce Frank, was dismissed from the area council committee because he dared suggest that the centre should not be so named. For his trouble, he was dismissed from the area council, (Time expired,) Mr BOOTH (Warwick) (5.42 p.m.): In joining the debate on the Minister's Estimates, 1 must say that he has been very successful in handling his portfoUo. He has brought to it a great deal of sincerity. When the political history of a State is written, I am sure that political sincerity wUl be upperniost, irrespective of party affiliations, Mr Davis: Oh, come on! 2608 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Mr BOOTH: I am being fair dinkum. The Minister has been very sincere in his approach. He has been in no way political. He has brought a breath of fresh air to welfare services. That is not to say he has been able to accompUsh everything he wanted to achieve, or that he has been able to bring to fruition everything we have asked of him. The Minister is a family man and, as such, he is able to make an assessment and bring to bear on his portfolio and the problems we all have to face thoughts similar to those held by members who have reared families. He has approached his responsibUities in the way that most Queenslanders whh family responsibilities would approach them. Unfortunately, that does not mean he has done everything he wanted to do. He occupies a very sensitive, delicate portfolio. He has to move carefully and quietly, and that is what he has done. Some people seem to be worried about the change in name this year from National Fitness CouncU to Queensland Recreation CouncU, They say that the change of name means less responsibility and that that is not good. In my opinion, the change of name has been beneficial,. The recreation committee is not trying to promote champions. However, if champions evolve from some of its activities, that is an added bonus. It is trying to bring recreation to aU people. Whether we like it or not, we will have more leisure time on our hands because the hours of work are gradually shortening. Recreation is now more important than it was in my younger days. Mr Milliner: Do you support the reduction in working hours?

Mr BOOTH: I do not think that the honourable member has ever heard me complain. Provided that the courts responsibly assess shorter working hours, that is OK by me. I am always prepared to accept a court's decision. Opposition members are prepared to go on strike and not accept a court's decision. That is where we differ, I referred to the change of name and to the recreational committees, I am not worried about the change of name. The member for Townsville West said that country members must be a little parochial. There is nothing wrong with that, I thank the Warwick and district committee, which is an excellent committee. Some of the best people that anyone could wish to have on a committee are on that committee, I am proud that so many people with so much experience have accepted responsibility. There is a cross-section of the community on that committee, and I am sure than honourable members would be proud of them. They are all good people. The Queensland Recreation CouncU's camping operation has been a great success. The Leslie Dam facilities are excellent. They have recently been upgraded. An oval is almost ready for use. Schools that accept camping assignments wiU be able to carry out training. Almost every facility is avaUable, including Duke of Edinburgh Award activities, I am grateful for the change of name. There is nothing wrong with a change of name, and the name gives the councU added zest, I am pleased that the numbers have been reduced so that the committee can reach decisions more quickly. Although I am not on the Minister's committee now, I was previously a member of his committee. As I visited Tasmania, I have some insight into what took place in that State in relation to community service orders, I am happy that that form of punishment has been introduced in (Queensland, There appears to be some reluctance on the part of the public in general to accept community service orders. They seem to think that people are not being punished. A minimum of 40 hours' and a maximum of 240 hours' community service is provided under the scheme. Anybody who was to undertake 180 or 240 hours of community service has received a great deal of punishment. If it will rehabUitate people without the stigma and problems associated with prison sentences, it is to be commended, I hope that we can persevere with the system and improve it. Unfortunately, very often young people who are sent to prison become hardened criminals because of the type of person they are forced to associate with in prison. If that can be prevented, it wiU be beneficial to the community. Unfortunately, that is not always possible. The people who introduced the community service order scheme have acted wisely and in good faith. Excellent results have been achieved. SuK>ly (Estimates) ' 23 November 1982 2609

Turning to parole and probation—I am not suggesting that the present system is not working weU. However, everything possible should be done to improve and upgrade it It was suggested by one member that there is a shortage of staff in that area. If possible, that should not be allowed to continue. Sufficient staff should be employed. The qu'aUty of the staff, not the number, is important. Nevertheless, that aspect should be watched. If any problems do arise, both the number and the quaUty of the staff should be upgraded. In Queensland we should be prepared to take a few initiatives of our own. In relation to both parole and probation we should be slightly adventurous, if I can put it that way. According to the Minister's report, the cost of maintaining a person in prison is $33,000 a year. That is not peanuts. Everything should be done to enable a prisoner to get back into society and to have a greater chance of welding himself into society, thereby becoming a permanent resident in society. Some more lenient attitudes could be adopted towards the prison system without doing any harm to society and without lessening the significance of imprisonment. As far as I am aware, prisoners are not allowed to read newspapers. One of the greatest recreations is reading a newspaper. I have yet to be convinced that allowing a prisoner to read a newspaper wUl do much harm. Many prisons outside Queensland allow prisoners to read newspapers. Prisoners should be aUowed to do so here. After all, prisoners are allowed to watch television, so they have access to news and entertainment. The best entertainment is reading. Some people would rather read books, and if I intend reading for a lengthy period I prefer a book to a newspaper. Nevertheless, reading a newspaper is relaxation. Furthermore, it keeps one up to date. Anyone who has read the story of Rip van Winkle would know that after he awoke he was dumbfounded by the changes that occurred during his long sleep, A person who comes out of prison after five years must also be dumbfounded, particularly by the cost of Uving. That must make it liard for him to settle down. If while he was in prison he had access to newspapers, he would be better able to cope with the situation thait prevaUed when he was released; he would be more able to accept it. Letter-writing should be made as simple as possible. Some restrictions must be imposed, but it should be encouraged, A letter from a prisoner's wife, child, mother or father can have a wonderful effect on him. The regulations should be liberalised to provide for more letter-writing. Every emphasis should be placed on getting a released prisoner back into society and into the work-force. When he is released he faces a serious problem in trying to get a job. Every assistance should be given to him. I turn now to the training of prison staff. It may be claimed that people learn from experience. It may also be claimed that someone who has completed a crash course and entered the prison service becomes a very efficient officer after four or five years' experience, I am prepared to accept that. However, if such a person was given adequate training, he would be an even better officer. Whether one long course of training is preferable to several short courses, I do not know. However, the standard of prison officers should be upgraded. This could be achieved by the provision of faciUties to enable prison officers to educate themselves, particularly in relation to the rehabiUtation of prisoners. If they can leara anything that gives them a greater ability to communicate with prisoners and to be sensitive to their needs, they will be better able to rehabilitate prisoners ^nd also to control them, Mr Davis: It is about a three-week course now, Mr BOOTH: AU I am suggesting is that that is not quite sufficient, I am not saying that as abject criticism; I am just saying that we could do better. Several members have referred to prison farms and said that that is another matter that should be pushed more, I agree with them. Prison farms have a lot to commend them. When prisoners who have been in a maximum security prison are transferred to Palen Creek they are greatly relieved. Although they might stUl hope to be paroled, they always write on the bottom of their letters, "I am delighted to be at Palen Creek," Surely the government could do a little more to estabUsh a couple more prison farms, I was a Uttie surprised to hear the criticism about the amount of money that was spent on the new Brisbane Women's Prison, When I was a member of the Minister's com­ mittee, I visited the old women's prison twice, I do not think that anybody who visited that 2610 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates) prison could come away without a feeling of shame. Perhaps the Government has done too good of a job with the new women's prison, or perhaps it could have constructed a garden-type prison; nevertheless, the conditions at the women's prison now are very much better than they were, I, too, have had an opporturiity to visit the Westbrook Training Centre. Perhaps it is not the best place in the world and some criticism may be leveUed at some aspects of it, but at least the people there appear to be reasonably happy, and boredom does not appear to be the problem that it is in some other institutions. I do not know that I can pass the same comment about the WUson Youth Hospital. I would Uke to criticise it, but I do not want to be too broad in my criticism. Boredom seems to be one of the matters about which the young people there complain. Some schooling is given, and if it could be increased it could be beneficaal, Mr Davis: The reason why it is no good is that there is an argument between the Children's Services Department and the Health Department, Mr BOOTH: I am not saying that it is no good, AU I am suggesting is that it might be improved. Most of the young people in that institution go there when they are 14 or 15 years old. They probably become good citizens by the time they are 18 years old. We have only to get them over those couple of rough years, AU of us know of young people who have had difficulty in settUng down. When we meet them years afterwards and ask them, "Where are you working?", we are amazed to find that they hold responsible positions and are respected members of the community, I think that the Government ought to try a little harder at the Wilson Youth Hospital, It is not a maximum security institution, but it has fairly strict security, Mr Davis: Not maximum security! You try to get out of iU Mr BOOTH: Although it may be very difficult to get out, it probably does not have the connotation of a maximum security prison, There is nowhere else to put some of the young people who are in that institution, and some research should be carried out to see whether it is possible to provide a better situation for them, I am not sure that I have all, or even any, of the answers, but I have received enough complaints to know that the Wilson Youth Hospital is not highly thought of by the people who have been in it or by members of the general community. As I say, it is difficult to find anywhere else to put some of the very young people who are there. More can be done to help them, and I hope that it wiU be done. In his introductory speech, the Minister referred to a number of initiatives that have been taken to try to get young people into family situations in which they can be helped and supported. I have sufficient confidence in the Minister and his staff to believe that something wiU be done about that. Cfertainly security must be provided for young people who just faU to settle down, [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.} Mr BOOTH: In the three minutes I have left to me I shall refer to the Department of Children's Services, With a staff of 917—not much short of 1 000—it is one of the large departments coming within the Minister's responsibilities. This is a very sensitive area and a large staff is required. However, as I Said in relation to probation and parole, the quality of the personnel is more important than the numbers. Of course, I realise that we must have sufficient numbers, I was interested to hear the Minister say that he had some new initiatives to take in the department—not to Completely reorganise it but to see if it could be better organised. We do not want such moves to be made aU the time, but occasionally it does no harm to have a shake-up and to look at what we are doing to see whether we are measuring up. Because of its size and the large centres of population dispersed throughout the Stale, Queensland probably has greater difficulties in the field of children's services than any other State, I am glad that the Minister is alive to that. He is thinking not only about reorgan­ isation but also about regionaUsation and decentralisation as far as is possible. Although it may be said that with modera transportation and communications it is not difficuU to contact people in Brisbane, it always appears to me to be of greater benefit to be able to speak to someone face to face, I commend the Minister and his department on their attempts to keep the northern parts of the State fuUy staffed. Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2611

Although there are no untoward problems in the Department of Children's Services, it is working in a highly sensitive area and dealing with a subject about which people get emotional very quickly. We have to exercise tight control over it. The Minister has successfully undertaken his responsibilities, Mr Davis: I don't agree. Mr BOOTH: He has been a success. I commend him for his work in the past and I am quite sure that he will tackle the coming year just as enthusiastically. Mr PREST (Port Curtis) (7.18 p.m.): Welfare Services and Children's Services are important departments and I am pleased to be able to have the opportunity to debate their Estimates. It is terrible for adults to have to be provided with food and clothing to tide them over until they receive benefits from the Department of Social Security or any other instrumentality handling welfare benefits. Far too many delays occur in the payment of welfare benefits, for various reasons. Those delays cause hardship to the person inyolved and to the family. Very little consideration is shown by most landlords and finance companies. As soon as a person falls behind in payments, the landlord and the hire-purchase company take action and the person is evicted from the accommodation and goods are repossessed. Welfare agencies are then called upon to provide assistance. I give great credit to the churches, in particular the Salvation Army and St Vincent de Paul, which at all times give assistance to all who ask for it. But unfortunately their resources are not unlimited, I am saddened by media programs that have reported that these agencies realise the time is coming fairly quickly when they will not be able to be as generous as they have been in the past. No doubt that is because of the increase in the number of people who are Uving in poverty in this very wealthy State of Queensland that we are so often told about. Unfortunately that number will continue to grow. In the last two or three weeks there has been a big increase in the number of people with financial problems coming to my electorate office. Although I hope I am wrong, I am sure that the present problems are just the beginning. In the past the Government has said that Queensland is a land of plenty, that it is a rich State and anyone who is not working does not want to work, is a dole bludger or is unemployable. Today that is not the case; it is not the dole bludgers or the unemployables but the genuine family man and the genuine hard worker of the State who are in trouble. Unfortunately those who are now in trouble have never faced simUar problems, and they find those problems very hard to handle. Something must be done urgently to get this country working again. The problems that are faced today will place the welfare organisations of the State in an almost unworkable situation if the Goveraments, both Federal and State, do not change their attitudes and policies and get the country working again, I must congratulate the women's shelters throughout the State, m particular the one in my own electorate, Louise Lodge, for the work that it has done in providing accommodation and assistance to the many mothers and their children since it first came into operation, and especially in the last 12 months. Because of the high cost of living famUies break up. For a variety of reasons husbands seek the comfort of alcohol to drown their sorrows or leave their families to seek work. That means that famiUes are left virtually destitute, A husband's worries may cause him to assault his family. For many reasons the family unit is breaking up. Unfortunately very many families now seek accommodation in women's shelters, I appreciate the type of accommodation that is provided and the number of people who are catered for, I only hope that the day when no women's shelters are needed is not too far away, but unfortunately I cannot see it arriving in the near future, I see a current need for a men's shelter to be provided in Gladstone, Mr White: A men's shelter! Mr PREST: Yes, a men's shelter. The Society of St Vincent de Paul did operate a men's shelter in Lewis Street, but at that time it saw there was a greater need to care for women and so a women's shelter was started. Problems have been created, no doubt, by the Government's propaganda about job opportunities in XJueensland; 'People arrive in Gladstone fuU of hope that they can obtain a job immediately, but today that is not the case, and it has not been for some tune. So 2612 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

men and sometimes their wives and families are stranded with no money and no accommodation. The wives and children can be temporarUy accommodated but males cannot, so a men's shelter is urgently needed, I am surprised at the Minister's reaction to the suggestion that a men's shelter is needed. The Salvation Army has considered the problem for some time. Such shelters have been established in other centres. Men who are in urgent need of accommodation or who are virtually destitute definitely need them. Why should they have to sleep on park benches or in rooms that are provided in some part of a church? I know that it would cost a great deal of money, but I believe that a men's shelter should be set up, if possible. If some organisation does that, it should be given Government assistance, I pay a great tribute to foster parents throughout the State, and also to the family group homes, which are doing a very commendable job, particulariy in my area. The officers of the Department of Children's Services in my area do very fine work. I must thank Carol Schultz in particular for her wholehearted involvemient in her work. I was pleased to see that during the year the department managed to find suitable accommodation in Gladstone. It is now accommodated in first-class condkions in a very desirable part of the city, and I know that the staff are very pleased with their accommodation, I have received a great deal of assistance from officers of the various welfare sections, and one person I wish to thank particularly is Mr D, S. Wallace, whom I seem to call on a great deal for assistance, mostly when pensioners find it necessary to urgently obtain a rail pass. He is always courteous and wilUng to assist, Mr White: He does an exceUent job, . Mr PREST: I agree, with the Minister; he is a first-class officer and a real gentieman. I repeat that because so much unemployment has been caused by the state of the economy, large numbers of people are in financial difficulty, which means that even more strain wUl be placed on the system. There has been a dramatic increase in the number of breaking, entering and stealing offences, particularly in areas that were booming but in which there is now a lot of unemployment. That increase has undoubtedly been brought about by a shortage of ready cash, and if offenders are caught and sentenced to a gaol term, that must place an even greater strain on the system. There also is a drug problem in this State, and if Goverament members bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge that, it wUl continue to cause family break-ups, child abuse and a number of other problems. There is a great need for more social workers. Without them, peciple in trouble have no-one to turn to for advice. Social work should not be an 8 to 5 job, so to speak, I beUeve that social workers should be accessible until at least midnight. The wife and mother seems to experience difficulties mainly when the husband comes home after partaking of alcohol. It would be a good idea if social workers were available to give her comfort and assistance in such a situation. Unfortunately, social workers are not avaUable in sufficient numbers, particularly in counttiy areas, I commend the interest oif the peoples who worked so long for the National Fitness Council, They did a very gOod job. To my knowledge, their inVolvement with the ctiuncil could not be attributed to poUtical reasons. Recently the council was restructured and renamed the Queensland Recreation CouncU, Unfortunately, people #ho served on it for many years were replaced by political appointees; .That is not in the best interests of national fitness. I cannot commend the Minister Or the departnient on making such appointments. I repeat that the people involved in national fitness for so lopg did a wonderful job. In some areas, organisations such as PYC are competing keenly with tbe national fitness courses, particularly for the younger groups. It is unfortunate that the people who served for so long did not have their services recognised and that they were replaced by political appointees. Mr White: You seem to have great difficulty in deciding between poUticaf appointees and people with ability. The whole exercise is to get people with abiUty, not party hacks. Mr PRHST: The Minister and I have differing points of view. The people to whom I am ,'referring worked for a long time without using the Natipnal, Fitness Council as a political machine. It should never have beein so used, and the Queensland Recreation Supply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2613

Council should not be so used today. Instead of being criticised by the Minister tonight, these people should be commended for the honorary, voluntary work they carried out for so long. It is obvious to me that the Minister did not appreciate the work they did, I am ashamed of the Minister for saying that they were only party hacks, Mr SCASSOLA (Mt Gravatt) (7,34 p.m.): I participate with pleasure in the debate on the Welfare Minister's Estimates this evening, JFirstly, I thank the departmental officers for their co-operation and assistance, which have always been given wilUngly, In, my dealings with the departmental officers, I have always found them to be very helpful, Mr Davis: And you wiU also thank Mr SCASSOLA: As the honourable member for Brisbane Central is about to remind me, I also thank the Minister for what he has done in his portfoUo, As an earUer speaker said, it is not an easy one to administer. It covers a number of matters. It has to be addressed with a caring mind and with the interests of people at heart, I gained the impression from the comments made by the honourable member for Port Curtis that all the problems would be solved if the Government appointed social workers. Such an approach would not necessarily solve all the problems. Social workers certainly have their place in the scheme of things. Ultimately, it is the concern for people. It is most important to establish a system that wiU deliver services on the ground and provide assistance to people in the most efficient way. The honourable member for Bulimba praised the system that operates in New South Wales. Unfortunately, he regurgitated what was in a statement prepared for him. One wonders where it came from. It probably came from the socialist Left, He demonstrated that he did not have very much understanding of the matters. There seems to be an approach in the ALP that everything has to be redistributed, that everything has to be changed and that everything has to be centralised. The last dear experience that we had of ALP administration in the field of welfare was during the Whitlam years. It was clear during that time that those who made the biggest noise and those who shouted the loudest received the money. It did not necessarily mean that those persons who were the most deserving were the recipients. There were some glaring examples of people in real need who missed out to those who shouted and jumped up and down. Those persons who were unable to speak for themselves and those who had no advocate to speak for their cause were left behind. That was the reality of it. It does not matter how it is dressed up; the point is that the philosophy of redistribution and centralisation simply did not work, j One of the important things that we must bear in mind in debating the Welfare Services fistimates js that the central principle that guides everything that happens is that, wherever possible, services should be delivered by those best able to do so. In other words, services should be delivered through the community by people in the com­ munity who are close to those in need and who have an understanding of the problems that confront those in need. One might ask why. The answer is quite simple—because they are the people who are best able to determine the needs. They are living in the community; they know the particular circumstances and they know the needs of particular people. One must realise also that finances in any field are finite, that there is a limit to what can be spent. By contrast, in the Whitlam years the floodgates opened and the money aU ran out. Those people who were really in need missed out. Because money is finite, it must be spent in the best way. By having services delivered by people close to those in need, the limited money avaUable is not lost on needless bureaucracy and it is not tost on paying people who really, in many cases, do not have an appreciation of the particular problems. I would like to address myself to a couple of areas in the Minister's portfolio. The nrst of those areas relates to the disabled or the handicapped: I note that the Minister has reqxmsibiUty in a couple of those areas, principally for the Disabled Persons aemce and VOLCARE, I wiU have something to say. later about VOLCARE. The Disabled Persons Service is divided into four components: information and referral; Uaison and advocacy; a resource centre, so that'organisations can be assisted: and co-ordinatioB. 2614 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

The important aspect in dealing with the disabled is that there is a lack of integration in the services that are avaUable, The responsibiUties are spread over three Ministers. First, the Minister who is presenting these Estimates has some responsibility; next, the Minister for Health has some responsibility through the Intellectually Handicapped Services Branch of the Division of Psychiatric Services in the Department of Health; thirdly, the Minister for Education has a responsibUity in education in so far as he purports to have that responsibility^remembering that in Queensland handicapped children do not have a right to an education. This fragmentation is highlighted when we look at the Disabled Persons Service. If we had a proi>erly co-ordinated and integrated system of deaUng with handicapped people, if all the responsibility came under one Minister, much of the work that is necessary in the Disabled Persons Service would become unnecessary. The Disabled Persons Service is necessary largely because of that fragmentation and lack of co-ordination in dealing with handicapped people. That fragmentation is wasteful and, in being wasteful, it is not in the interests of handicapped people themselves. There ought to be a reappraisal of the whole of the area relating to handicapped people. That whole area ought to be brought under one umbreUa, with properly co-ordinated services that wUl meet the needs of the totality of disabled people, Tlie whole thing should be looked at in its proper perspective. Because of this fragmentation, lack of co-ordination and lack of unity, as it were, in our approach, there is a conffict between what some departments are doing and what others are doing, I cite an example. Recently the Minister for Health pubUshed and, I think, tabled the "Parliamentary White Paper on Services for Intellectually Handicapped People in Queensland", which set out some objectives in dealing with intellectually handicapped people. It is a very useful and worthwhile document. One wonders whether it wiU be discussed in the Chamber, It ought to be, and there ought to be a good deal of public discussion on the type of services that are provided to inteUectually handicapped people. Set out in that paper is the objective that all handicapped people ought to have the right to education and training. The paper refers to "the right to education and training wUhout exception, including the severely and profoundly handicapped" That objective is a very valuable one. In fact, it complies with the objectives that have been set out in legislation in other countries, with objectives in the United Nations Charter and so on. However, that objective does not correspond with the realities. In another area, the legislation that covers education in Queensland does not guarantee, handica|^)ed chUdren a right to an education; neither do the amendments to the Education Att that are currently before this Parliament. We need to look at the objective in perspective and do away with the fragmentation. There is a real need to look at the rights of handicapped people, to provide for their education and to provide a right of choice in education for them. So a lot

during the period that it has been operating, which I understand is seven years. Essentially, the service is designed to provide short-term relief for famUies caring for disabled persons in their homes. Clearly, famUies are placed under strain from time to time and need a short break. The important point about this service is that the department seeks to recruit volunteers to care for people for short periods so that their parents or members of their family can get away for a break or a holiday. It is a very valuable service, and the department is performing a very valuable function. I understand that the Minister is seeking to expand the service by calling for volunteers in the south-eastern suburbs of Brisbane. Also I understand that some 147 volunteers in the field already care for some 160 famUies. Mr White: Doing a great job. Mr SCASSOLA: They are doing an excellent job. There is a great demand for the service. The demand, might I suggest, far exceeds the abiUty of the department to provide the service. Might I suggest that there be an approach to try to expand it even more? I know that care has to be taken in training volunteers and in ensuring that the people who take on this activity are suited to it and are able to perform it properly. I certainly hope that the department is able to expand the service in the foreseeable future. The officers of the department who have addressed themselves to this matter are worthy of the thanks of the community, because without VOLCARE there would not be very much in the community to provide such a service. It is one of the very valuable services provided by the department. Another very valuable service is the YES Scheme—the Youth Employment Support Scheme. It is a Uttle more recent in time, but it has performed admirably. That scheme seeks to assist socially and educationally disadvantaged youth to find employment. As I understand it, there are two offices—one at Salisbury in my electorate and the other at ZUlmere. They have done extraordinarily weU, Since the inception of the scheme, they have been able to assist more than 3 000 young people to obtain employment. The scheme has not received the community or media attention that it should have received, Mr Davis interjected, Mr SCASSOLA: I know that the honourable member for Brisbane Central does not like to give praise where praise is due, but the YES Scheme is very important and helpful to young people in our community, having been able to find jobs for more than 3 000 young persons. The retention rate in employment has been very high because of the care that is taken to counsel young people beforehand. Care is taken in assisting them to find employment and, after they have found employment, there is counseUing and guidance so that they are able to settle into their employment. Any problems that arise can be ironed out. It is a most valuable scheme and the department and Minister should be commended for it. (Time expired.)

Mr SIMPSON (Cooroora) (7,53 p,m,): It gives me pleasure to support the Minister in the presentation of his Estimates, I wish to cover a few aspects of preventive care not only by the Scouting and Guiding movements looking after young people but also By the surf life-saving movement. The helicopter rescue service provides a wonderful ??mu '°"-*° ^^^ welfare of our State, Queensland has a coastlme of something like 3 2U0 km. Life-savers have been patrolling the beaches for which Queensland has become lamous for many years—in fact, for 50 years. They are now celebrating their golden anniversary. In that time appiroximaitely 35 000 rescues have been made. It is impossible to calculate what those Uves have meant in terms of productivity and families reared, ine community has the assurance that the beaches can be used with safety, ... However, people tend to take life-savers for granted. Some do not do the prudent mng and bathe Only between the flags. Some do not give due heed to weather conditions iV fi!f ^"™*- The Sunshine Coast now has a rescue helicopter service that was initiated by Des Scanlan. With his BeU heUcopter he started rescues and then got ^onsors mterested In helping with that service. He approached me to see if we could get 2616 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Government support for a Continuous service. At that time the service, which had been supported by Rotary on the Gold Coast, was provided only on week-ends and during holiday periods. People do not get into difficulty in the surf only at those times, so obviously a full-time operation was needed. So a committee was formed—I am proud to say that I was its first chairman—that was able to formulate a 24-hourTa-day, seven-days-a- week, 365-days-a-year service that had incorporated in it trained personnel from the surf Ufe- saving movement. As well as patrolUng the beaches, that heUcopter can be used by the police free for up to 50 hours on an instantaneous call-out basis. Sometimes poUce would receive a report that something, perhaps a body, was floating in the ocean. What used to happen was that the police had to ring Brisbane and then wait for a reply from headquarters. That reply might indicate that it was considered too expensive to find out what that object was, but now the poUce can caU for the helicopter and it costs the department nothing. All the red tape has been cut through. It is a great and very effective arrangement. As I said, the accounting and costing of the helicopter has been so arranged that the police have at their disposal 50 hours of free time. It can be used by the ambulance services likewise. On many occasions when the traffic on the highway has been very dense, instead of taking hours to get an injured person to hospital, the heUcopter has taken that person to the most suitable hospital, either in Brisbane or on the Sunshine Coast, within 20 minutes. All that is ccKirdinated through one system—to the poUce and then to the medical officer who evaluates the case. Sometimes somebody turns a vehicle over on Fraser Island, More and more the helicopter is being caUed to Fraser Island. Part of the reason for that is its isolation, but other reasons are the number of people who travel on the beaches, the change in the condition of the beaches and the inexperience of some who travel on them. All people on the island now have this rescue service available to them. The helicopter is also important in spotting fires. For some time everybody has realised the very good job that aircraft can do in this regard, but heUcopters provide an even better service because they can put persons down at strategic points tO fight fires and, because of their ability to hover in a particular place, they can accurately pinpoint the position of fires. The services provided by the helicopters have now been extended, I might say that they are funded by a major sponsor. Mr White: Westpac. Mr SIMPSON: Yes; that used to be the Bank of New South Wales. But the major sponsor is really the Goverament, If one considers the volunteer labour that goes into the scheme, one could rightly say that the major sponsor is the volunteer labour, then the Government and then sponsors such as Westpac and the shire councUs from Hervey Bay in the north and, now that the service has been extended from the Sunshine Coast, to the Gold Coast in the south. It will operate on the same basis every day of the year. Incidentally, it wiU be sponsored on the same basis and will be run as a non-profit company. There is stUl some charter work, although that is now a very minor part of the operation. Much of the work is connected with essential services such as the monitoring, of controlled forestry burns and the inspection of power Unes, That occurs when, because of rain, the chance of the helicopter being called out on the beaches is at a minimum, I commend those involved, not only Jim CampbeU, the chief pilot, and the other pUots, but also the crew of Ufe-savers who man the lielicppter and who have gained great expertise in rescuing people from the sea. I once observed the heUcopter rescuing someone from the sea off Rainbow Bay during a cyclone. Hayden Kenny was dropped into the water but was swept straight past the yaciit. He managed to grab a line and get on board, even with the tremendous current that was running. He then had to jump back into the water and be pulled out of the sea. From our dry observation position on the beach we could not see aU the helicopter for the waves because the sea was so rough and the helicopter was so close to the water. When I said to the pUot; that it was something of a miracle that he could handle the helicopter in those conditions;, he was very nonchalant about it and told me that it looked so spectacular because the waves got even higher as they got closer to the beach. Supjrfy (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2617

I commend those men for their acts of bravery, which have been repeated many times. Peoirfe often ask how many lives they have saved, but it does not do to begin counting whether one operation meant a life saved and another did not. The figure is large. The system means that people are speedily moved from a crisis situation into care. Various systems have been devised to ensure that there is no duplication, but because the State Emergency Service now has a heUcopter the system must be looked at again to ensure that the two services work together and do not overlap. A great deal of work has been done by the various life-saving clubs, particularly in the trainingof the Uttle nippers, I believe in community self-help, and our welfare services must move towards that situation or they \viU be priced out pf the market. The taxpayer wiU not be able to afford them. The cost of welfare is increasing so rapidly that by 1990 it will be consuming half the tax revenue of this nation, so the Government has to look at self-help • Mr WhUe: It is taking 28 i)er cent of gross domestic product now, Mr Borbidge: People who want more welfare generally want lower taxes. Mr SIMPSON: The people who want higher welfare payments are often not paying the taxes necessary to make them possible, Ihey have to look realistically at the situation. The handout syndrome is increasing, so it is important to encourage people to be self-sufficient and adopt the attitude of looking after themselves and having a go, I beUeve that situation is getting closer, but we do not want to have to go through heU to get there. It is a bit like the situation described by Schultz, the financier, who said that economic recovery in AustraUa wiU take longer than other countries because it is not in the perilous position in which they find themselves, where things are so bad that they must again establish a sound base and from that base, buUd themselves up. The position is much the same in the welfare field. We cannot continue milking the cow that is providmg for welfare. The Government must encourage thriftiness, caring and self-sufficiency in people. That means starting with the young. Because children need parents, the Goverament must support the famUy group, Tliere will always be those in need who require special care. The family group home opened recentiy at Nambour is the only one on the Sunshine (Toast, It heralds the time when children wUl not have to leave the famUy situation and go to Brisbane or other places for care. They will be cared for locally, and it is to be hoped that they wiU be reunited with their famiUes and their friends—especially their school friends. That vriU help to rehabUitate them and enable them to become stabilised. The Scouts, Girl Guides, churches and other groups that work with young people to develop their character and self-sufficiency play an extremely important role. The Government has to concentrate objectively and effectively on them. Without making any bones about it, the Goverament must strive to make our children far more effective and capable of looking after themselves so that they wUl grow into people who wiU say "I'll have a go.", who wUl not lie down at the first Hurdle and say* "What wUl I do now? It is too hard, I wUl go on the dole," Mr Davis: That is what is happening under your Government, Mr SIMPSON: There are always opportunities- Mr Prentice: More jobs have been created in Queensland than in any other State. Mr SIMPSON: That is right, and we have not pushed our advantages to the fuUest. The Premier and the Treasurer left Queensland to go overseas to get jobs for Queenslanders. That was pooh-poohed by the member for Brisbane Ctentral and the other Opposition knockers and negative thinkers. Much the same can be said about many of our councils, A great many opportunities tor development are presented! to the shire and pity councils and, until now, they have oeen choosy. They must get off their butts and look for productivity and jobs in the same way as the Premier and Treasurer have been doing. .., " ^^ can instU that attitude in young people; we wiU get somewhere. When the igdts are swUched off; some children have no idea what to do. They become completely lat f and inadequate when someone switches off the light. That is typical of the CK of capacity to look after oneself that is engendered in modern society. I pay tribute 51593-88 2618 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

to the instractors in the Scouts and Girl Guides who train young people to be self- sufficient and to look after themselves when necessary by caUing on back-to-base resources. Training like that built Australia, Such training wiU always help a community to handle properly any problems that arise. If the Gove;rnment molly-coddles people and specialises in. training in the same way as some engineers do, to the extent that they do not know how to change a tap washer, fix a window^ or a door catch, the minute something goes wrong Ithe young people wiU only be able to say, "I wiU get on the phone and ring up the specialist to fix the plumbing," If the phone does not work, they are lost. They become useless. Self-suffidency and the abUity to look after oneself should be inherent in the whole welfare program. The more people who are self-sufficient and who can look after themselves, the fewer who wUl need to be provided with care. There wiU always be people in need in our community and it wiU always be neces­ sary to have support stmctures. The number of people who require care is growing at a disproportionate rate. Our poUcies at the grass roots level should be directed towards more self-sufficiency, more canng in the family circle and more attention to looking after those in need within our own famiUes, Speech nights are now being held at schools. More than ever there will be a need for parents to care for their chUdren, whether they are going on to higher education or looking for a job. If they do not, those children will be thrown onto the welfare system. If parents support their chUdren, not only Will the children be well-adjusted, knowing they are cared for and supported by their famUies, but also their job-finding prospects will be enhanced. If they do not find a job immediately, they wiU not suffer the hang-ups that are associated with job-hunting. The community wUl then start to look after itself. Shortly, a jamboree wiU be held in Queensland, It will be a great event, Mr Borbidge interjected. Mr SIMPSON: Honourable members ought to take a trip there and find out how young people learn to look after themselves and at the same time have a great time. Some persons who wUl attend the jamboree wiU be the future leaders of this country. They will have an opportunity to develop leadership and. teamwork skills. That is something that the Government encourages for the good of Queensland. Mr BERTONI (Mt Isa) (8.13 p.m.): For some tune I have looked forward to this opportunity to comment on the Estimates of the Department of Welfare Serrices. Despite the carping criticsm that the Minister receives from time to time from the Opposition, he and his departmental officers have done an excellent job, and are con­ tinuing to do so. The Opposition's criticism is carping and nit-picking mainly because it finds it very difficult to find fault with the Minister's entire approach to the very critical areas of his portfolio, I wUl say more about that later. The Welfare Services portfolio assumes great importance almost daily. It must be remembered that virtually the entire cost of community welfare, prisons, children's services and everything else comes out of public funds. That department has very little opportunity by raising its own revenue, to pay for the immense amount of work that it has to carry out, I beUeve that, in this instance, the right man is in the right position, because the Minister in charge of the Welfare Services portfoUo shows an understanding and a sympathy rarely seen in this day and age. He has a genuine capacity to listen to people. He shows concern for people, and he translates that to his Ministry. One of the things that I have in common with the Minister is that I am a qualified chemist. Oiemists are probably some of the most aware people in the com­ munity today. Our businesses involve a very close contact with people. Most people have gone to their local chemist at some time, described a few minor ^mptoms and have been helped or else advised to consult a doctor, because the chemist recognises that a very real medical problem may be involved. However, during our contact with the pubUc we frequently hear about the real problems faced by msuiy people during the course of their Uves, Ihey want to teU someone about it, and few chemists would not be prepared to listen. That is why the Minister does such a good job; long before be became a Minister he knew about many of the problems that he and his officers now face every day. SiH>ply (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2619

I know that the Minister has a very real interest in children and the family unit. It is in those areas that a great deal of the good work that he has done has not been reflected in the publicity that his portfolio receives. I should like to list some of his achievements that reach into every home in Queensland. Firstly, let me deal with adoption and, in particular, with the reframing of the Queensland Adoption Act. Anyone who has been involved with the adoption of children will mention the lengthy delays that he has experienced with all the filling in of forms and the rest of it. Certainly the interests of the children have to be protected, and that was of paramoimt consideration in reframing the Act. That reframing will result in the introduction of a family matters tribunal, which will have the power to indicate that an adoption order should be made. That will be of particular value in the case of adoption by relatives or of an adoption into a second or later marriage, where the natural parent will no longer have to apply to adopt his or her own child. The next plus is the establishment of multiple adoption lists, which will abolish the requirement to have all the names of those persons who wish to adopt a child on one great long list, to be processed in turn. There will be separate lists for those who wish simply to adopt infants, for those who are willing to adopt children with special needs and for those who wish to adopt children from overseas. A number of advantages will arise from these measures. A major one is that children within the welfare system will not be waiting for a long time while decisions are being made. Another advantage is that the measures will help smooth out the situation in which parents are in conflict on adoption matters after a marriage is dissolved. The clue as to the very essence of the Minister's concern in this area comes from his remark, "We are dealing with human beings and human emotions. Adoption is not a contract in the commercial sense." At the same time, he pointed out that children over 12 years of age would be consulted as to their own adoption. The whole theme of the Minister's approach to the many hassles in this modem high-pressure age, with which some people simply cannot cope, was his backing of the 24-hour Crisis Care Unit, which anyone can telephone on a 24-hour basis to discuss his or her problems confidentially. What a humanitarian and wise move that was. The proof is shown clearly in the statistics. During the past 12 months, the Crisis Care Unit received about 17 000 telephone calls, or approximately 1600 calls a month or 55 a day. Many of its calls come from desperate mothers with young children who have been forced to leave home because of brutality or severe emotional stress. They are helped by Crisis Care because it is in touch with all women's refuges in the Moreton area. Of course, there are many other people who telephone the nine staff members of Crisis Care who are on call on a round-the-clock basis. It provides a service that must be above criticism. It meets a real need in today's world. To educate those who would criticise, I point out that the costs of the service are contained within the Budget allocation for the entire department. So full marks to all those responsible. Mr Davis interjected.

Mr BERTONI: Surely the honourable member for Brisbane Central is not criticising Crisis Care. Mr Davis: No, I am not. I am criticising the brief that you are reading.

Mr BERTONI: The honourable member should give credit to the Minister for introducing such a service. Mr Davis interjected.

Mr BERTONI: The honourable member should say some good things about the Minister for a change. Mr Davis: I support him. 2620 23 November 1982 Supply (Estinutci)

Mr BERTONI: That is very good. I Uke to teU people in my electorate that members of the ALP are not interested in the welfare of children. I suggest that the honourable member thank the Minister for setting up Crisis Care, which meets a real need in tbe community, Mr DAVIS: I rise to a point of order. The honourable member for Mt Isa said that I supported him, I said that I supported the Minister in giving the honourable member the brief that he is reading.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Kaus): Order! There is no point of order.

Mr BERTONI: What I; said was that the honourable member should support the Minister. As the member for Mt Isa, I must draw the Minister's attention to a number of matters that I believe need his immediate attention. Information that I have received from very reliable sources in Mt Isa, indicates in bald terms that a very serious situation exists with the staff of the Children's Services Department. During the last four to five months, the case-load for probationary matters is well over 121 cases for only one officer. Information tiiat has been given to me indicates that in the opinion of those people who know, efforts to obtain assistance from the Children's Services Department have collapsed because the officer responsible for the matter is now on long service leave untU January. That situation is simply not good enough, and I ask the Minister to give urgent attention to it. While he is domg that, I respectfully suggest that he have an immediate discussion with the Mt Isa Welfare Council. » I know that copies of a very incisive report are on the way to the Minister. It relates to very real problems in the Mt Isa area with the staffing of the Children's Services Department. The report makes out a very strong case and pdints out very conclusively the very critical situation that has been caused by problems related to the lack of ready employment, the isolation of Mt Isa and the number of people who are suffering because their social security, welfare benefits, pensions, etc., are simply eroded by. the higher cost of living in Mt Isa. Also, many Aborigines who camp on the dry river bed near Mt Isa end up stranded. Those people, and may others, need tbe welfare services that are very seriously hampered, not only by a lack of staff, but also by the extensive travel involved to get to people living in outlying areas. Many problems arise with children because of the large numbers of children born to single motliers. Often the care of those children becomes the responsibility of grand­ mothers or great-grandmothers. The single woman usuaUy receives very little support from the child's father. Very often he does not care and moves on to another town. Those are the sorts of problems that face the ChUdren's Services Department. The position certaiiUy is not helped by a lack of staff in the department. A recent case brought to the attention of the Mt Isa Welfare CouncU concerned two young males under the age of 17 years who were held in the watch-house for eight days for safe custody. The report that I have read stated that it was not the calibre of the child care officers that was at fault, but rather what was described as the "seeming lack of understanding from the Brisbane (^ce of problems peculiar to the far north-west region" I feel strongly that that claim needs urgent investigation. Mr Prest: You were praising the Minister a minute ago, and now you are giring him a bucketing. , Mr BERTONI: I know the Minister very weU. He understands the; problems in the western areas. When a member discusses problems with him, he investigates them. That isi why I am able to praise him and then refer to the problems that arise in various regions. That is full credit to the Minister conceraed, I know that the department experiences great difficulty in getting staff to go to the western areas. That is a fact of life, but surely something can be done about it. It is significant that other State departments with offices in Mt Isa seem to have full staff quotas. Sapijiy (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2621

One allegation that I urge the Minister to examine is that there may be problems in the PubUc Service Board, It seems to be responsible for long delays in recmiting staff. I note advertisements for staff in other departments in the Press, but I rarely see advertisements for staff, particularly for social workers, for the Children's Services Department, The report contains a number of sound recommendations about this whole situation, and I respectively urge the Minister to give them close and urgent consideration. Knowing his attitude, I am sure that he wUl. The Mt Isa area—^indeed the whole of my electorate—has special problems. Certainly the problems are very different from those in the Brisbane metropolitan area. It is my conviction that unless th(»e special circumstances are taken into account, it will not be possible to provide a service that should be at least on a par with the facilities and staffing available in a metropolitan environment. It might be a very good and eye- opening experience for those officers of the Public Service Board to go to that area and see for themselves how delays in providing more staff create critical situations. There is nothing Uke an on-the-spot assessment to find out the facts. If the Minister is agreeable, I would be delighted to arrange for those officers to assess the problem accurately. I raise aU these points on behalf of my electorate, firstly, because that is my duty as the elected member and, secondly, because I know that the Minister will respond, N6 department or ministry is perfect. Neither is this one. However, it is willing to listen. That is what I beUeve is important, especially when after Ustening it investigates the matter and does something about it, I am confident that that will be so in this instance. For that reason, that department under the Minister's control must receive as much financial backing as it needs to adequately fulfU its role in the community, Mr Davis: WiU you give an assurance to the Minister that you wUl go along with him when he goes up to Mt Isa? , Mr Burns: That wUl make sure that you are there,

Mr BERTONI: I am in my electorate every week, I would be h^PPy to welcome the Minister and host a function for him, and also to welcome the member for Brisbane Central and to put on a function for him, I am sure that the ALP would appreciate that. He is most welcome in my electorate at any time. I turn now to the ALP's celebrated policy document, which provides, if we were foolish enough to believe it, the most fantastic series of proposals and stated aims of all time for this portfoUo. I could imagine that the formulation of such a poUcy document would have been conducted something like this: a team of ALP ideaUsts sat round a table scratching their heads how to top the achievements of the Minister and his department, and their final solution was to think of everything possible and then to double or treble it. That is what their poUcies amount to. Really, they are suggesting nothing that the Government is not already doing. What they mean, however, is millions more dollars of the taxpayers' money to be spent in satisfaction of their own pet schemes, increasing staff by thousands, socialising everything and giving everyone everything he wants. "Promise the world" is their catch-phrase, but we are not to go too closely into how it is to be paid for. That is the hard part. Of course, private enterprise can always be

Apart from aU that, the document is an insult to womanhood, I have rarely seen such fatuous, patronising garbage, especially from a party that seems to have great difficulty pushing ladies into its back-bench ranks, unlike both the National Party and the Liberal Party, The Nationals have a female Federal party president, a female senator and the fullest oppbrtunUies for any female member of the party to join our merry ranks. The Liberal Party has similar opportunities. Our ladies all have equal opportunities and are indeed very welcome. However, this is how the Labor Party puts in its tiny eight-paragraph reference to "Status of Women"-- "The Australian Labor Party recognises that women's status in Australian society is changing and must continue to change , The status of women as mothers and homemakers is, not devalued . Women must be recognised as persons who can participate in all facets and at all levels of society," With those magnaninAous ALP policy observations, I conclude my remarks. 2622 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

Mr YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) (8,29 p,m,): The Minister's responsibiUties are of great concera in the community, as his portfoUo covers the Department of Cliildren's Services, the Prisons Department and the Queensland Recreation Council, When one considers them in the Ught of the current economic climate in our nation, there are serious connotations in those responsibilities. In my view probation and parole, as well as irehabilitatibn, are major community problems. The first step under our laws is for the courts to deal With offenders within the legal system and then for the judges or the magistrates to impose appropriate penalties. From that stage consiideration must move to the very crucial area of probation, parole and rehabiUtation, The probation and parole officers spread throughout Queensland do a very important job. In many cases they can steer a person from the road he is travelUng to the right road that will lead him to a successful future in the community. That applies to a very young first offender and to the older regular offender. Throughout the nation emphasis is being placed on the role played by probation and parole officers. Once the courts impose sentence the offenders become the responsibiUty of the Probation and Parole Service, The work-load of probation officers continues to increase and it is reasonable to say that the case-loads continue to increase, I have taken out some figures which indicate that in the last five years in Queensland the number of offenders who have been sentenced to terms of imprisonment has decreased from 3 479, or 70 per cent, in 1976-77, to 3 085, or 57 per cent, in 1981-82, Those figures demonstrate that today fewer peopile are being sentenced to gaol. Obviously one of the Minister's departments has the responsibility of dealing with those who are not sentenced to imprisonment. In 1976-77 the number of convicted persons placed under the supervision of probation and parole ofiicers was 1 511, or 30 per cent, a^nd that has increased to 2280, or 43 per cent, in 1981-82, That is about a 13 per cent increase in the number of persons who have been placed under the supervision of probation and parole officers. Case-loads supervised by such officers in Queensland increased by 479, or 17,2 per cent, and the daily prison averages—that is those who were sent to prison-—decreased by 74, or 4.6 per cent. Those figures are a fairly true representation of what is happening in that area in Queensland today, '" ' In his Financial Statement delivered in September 1982 the Treasurer intimated that during 1982-83 there would be no staff increases in this area. That is a very pertinent point that I wish to stress. If the Government, through the Minister and his department, is embarking on a policy of rehabiUtation and parole, it would seem to me that it should take into consideration the increased work-load of probation and parole officers and that con­ sequently they wiU not be able to carry out their duties in a proper manner. The end result of that increased work-load will be a drop in the success rate. The Treasurer provided for an increase of 154 persons in the PoUce Department. I do not criticise the (ooverament for tliat, but increasing the number of poHce who wiU bring offenders before the courts wUl exacerbate the problems faced by the Probation and Parole Service which wiU not have its numbers increased. The Treasurer also said that in his opinion there was no possibiUty of the Probation and Parole Service taking on further work in the forthcoming 12 months. I do not know whether the Minister can confirm that, but that is my information as to what wiU happen in Queensland in this very important area. In the same period many more prisoners wiU be released on parole and probation so the problem will continue to manifest itself. But nothing wUl be done about it because there are insufficient officers to handle the increased number, I applaud the objectives of community service orders. Offenders throughout the State are having such orders imposed on them. Almost dafly in my own city I read Press reports of people, particularly young people, bemg sentenced to carry out certam work under a community service order. Uhfoi'tunately the Press sometimes reports only shortly thereafter that the same offender has not carried out the work and has been brought back to be dealt with again by the court. Sometimes another order is issued, but on other occasions he is dealt with more severely. To hark back to my earlier remarks—it is obvious that a person sentenced to a community service order has to be supervised by somebody. It is departmental o™""' not the courts who carry out that supervision. The gaoling of half of the 600 offenders currently undergoing community service orders would have cost the commwuty a mammoth amount in maintenance. They would have had to be housed and fed. The SuM^y (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2623

Government's attitude is certainly lop sided, particularly because people undergoing community service orders have to be handled by the Queensland Probation and Parole Senice. Mr Davis: $20,000 a year. Mr YEWDALE: My colleague mentioned a figure of $20,0(X) a year to keep a person in prison, and he is always spot on. Although the Government has adopted this progressive policy, it is not achieving the required result because of the department's inability to supervise such orders. It seems that the work-load of probation officers is increasing and the stage has been reached where the standard of supervision might begin to deteriorate, A high-cost-effective operation has been maintained in the past, but it is inevitable that in the future some services must be reduced, and once that happens, the system starts to fall down. It is evident, from the information that is available, that if the Queensland Probation and Parole Service is to provide a viable sentencing alternative, it must respond positively to the restraints that are being placed upon it. The Mmister should be jumping up and down and screaming loudly to his Cabinet colleagues, particularly the Treasurer, asking where he wUl get the wherewithal to increase the number of parole officers to carry out the very poUcies that he says are working in the community. As one of my coUeagues pointed out earUer, the Minister is very prone to telUng the community what is happening in his department and how successful he is. But, judging by statistics such as these, it would be fair to say that the Minister is not operating successfully in the area to which I have referred. Further statistics show that the probation service is now responsible for some 68 per cent of adult offenders currently under the supervision of the Department of Welfare Services, but receives only 7 per cent of the budget allocated for corrections. That aspect of the Minister's portfolio is of vital importance. I know from experience in my own city of the problems with yOung offenders that confront the poUce and the departmerit. The growing number of unemployed young people has resulted in increased vandalism. They lack the money to keep up the life-style of their friends who are working. To some extent the Federal and State Governments have to accept the responsibiUty for that situation. Despite what the Minister for Employment and Labour Relations keeps saying about more jobs being created in Queensland, k is obvious that unemployment is growing. The assertion that more jobs are being created in this State than anywhere else is no consolation to the thousands of young people who cannot obtain work, A statement that I made recently is still valid. In the foreseeable future some school-leavers between the ages of 17 and 18 years wiU never be able to get a job unless something drastic is done. The Queensland Recreation Cbuncil plays a worthy part in encouraging people to play sport and participate in community groups. In many instances that keeps young people off the street and prevents their becoming involved in vandaUsm, It wiU also keep them out of the courts, I have a somewhat parochial comment to make about the women's shelter in my electorate, which has been operating for some considerable time, Mr White: Is that the St Vincent De Paul one? Mr YEWDALE: It is the one that has been in Dean Street for some time, I Uve close to U, That sheUer has been conducted in a reasonable way but, in recent times, it ran mto financial problems because of the lack of support from the Government and the community, A rescue operation was mounted and, as far as I know, the shelter is operating and serving a useful purpose. It caters for wives and chUdren cast into the street at night following domestic upheavals or the actions of unscrupulous landlords when a widow or supporting mother cannot meet her commitments. The shelter is playing a worthy role in the community. Every effort has been made to keep it functioning, but It IS nowhere near big enough to cater for the number of people who want to use it, .. j" speaking to people involved with the shelter I found it was obvious that they do the best they can, but space and finance are Umited. The Goverament should be providmg complementary or additional facUities to cater for people in distress. i&i4 23 November 1982 Supply (EstimatM)

The Government is certainly shirking its responsibiUty to offenders released on probation and parole. It should be doing much more in society to provide shelters for women and chUdren, The problems are increasing rather than decreasing. Collectively, the Government must accept responsibUity for the ills in society because, by its attitudes it has created and maintained them to some extent. Young people wiU continue to break the law as they have been doing over the years. Efforts are being made in many areas to crack down on drink driving, dmg offences and vandaUsm, I am more conceraed about young people than the middle-aged and older people. Young people do not know where they are going. They have no aim in Ufe, We have made society what it is today. We, and the Goverament, especiaUy the Minister^ are responsible for many of the problems. A greater effort should be made by the Minister and the Goverament,

Hon, T, A, WHITE (Redcliffe—Minister for Welfare Services) (8,44 p,m.): I thank all honourable members for their contributions to the debate. Many constructive suggestions were made. Many of them wiU be very helpful in the orderly mnning of the Department of Welfare Services, They wiU be followed up and advice furnished to members. Many areas of my portfolio attracted very little or no comment. I refer particularly to migration and ethnic affairs. Recently, a new Division of Migrant Services and a Migrant Affairs Advisory Committee were established, A migrant services liaison officer was appointed. Shortly, a director will be appointed. That area has recieved a great deal of consideration and input from my departmental officers, I thought that that would have drawn a Uttle more attention from members. The Queensland Industrial Institution for the BUnd did not receive a great deal of comment. Some members commented on the initiatives that foUowed from the Inter­ national Year of Disabled Persons including the establishment of the Disabled Persons Service, Many of the initiatives that flawed from lYDP did not recieve a great deal of comment. The comment that was made by disabled people was that they did not want any special privUeges or any form of patroriage; they just wanted the same rights and opportunities as other people in the community. As a consequence, the Government took the initiative to. take up their cause. In so many areas, such as employment, Queensland leads the way throughout the nation. The great majority of disabled people in this nation who have been able to obtain jobs in recent times have obtained those jobs in Queensland, In many ways that is a direct consequence of the work done by many people who work very hard to assist disabled people and to encourage employers, particularly the Government, through the initiatives of the Premier and me, in the establishment of special positions in the Public Service for disabled people. It has been demonstrated by many disabled people that they have the capacity to do a job in the same way as able-bodied members of the community. Mr Davis interjected, ' r Mr WHITE: The member for Brisbane Central is weU known for his interjections. He does not seem to understand or does not want to know that the facts of Ufe are that in this nation 40 per cent of the disabled people who obtained a job obtained one in Queensland, The figures are there for members to scrutinise, I do not want to sound too political, but I point out that disablement employment in Queensland is at least double that in the larger States, such as New South Wales and Victoria. That is a great credit to this State, Except for the comments made by the member for Cboroora, no great referwice was made to recreation. He has been very much involved in recreation for a long time. He referred to restructuring of the department, including the head office. However, to a large extent those areas were ignored by other members. It is interesting to note that little reference was made by the Opposition to the disastrous situation that exists in the corrective services area in the Labor-controlled State of New South Wales, It is nothing but a public scandal. One could be excused for thinking that the Opposition deliberately avoided any comment of any consequence in that area. Overall, I was very' satisfied with the comment, the quality and the tenor of the debate, I thank all members for their interest in and their constructive comments on the areas involvirag iny portfolio. The Opposition must realise that the answer to the welfare Supjiy ^Estimates) 23 November 1982 2625 needs of Queensland does not lie in the massive injection of pubUc funding. More and more we must involve ourselves with the voluntary sector in meeting those needs. As a Government, we must give those organisations support to enable them to deliver the goods. The Opposition must understand that the welfare of this nation and, in particular, this State, depends upon the economic growth and development of this nation and this State. Without that econonlic development we will not be able to provide a high degree of welfare services to those people in the community who are really in need. More particularly, the answer to the welfare needs lies in the continued stimulation of the economy. In tliat regard, Queensland is singularly fortunate in having the present Government, wUh ks free-enterprise philosophy, controlling the destiny of this State. Although that may be unpalatable to members of the Opposition, the fact of life is that this State is still generating 50 per cent of the new jobs in this country. That fact alone must be one of considerable concern and enibarrassment to people such as Premier Wran, The outdated socialist philosophies of the Labor Party have failed elsewhere. We see evidence of that in the mass migration of people to (Queensland, As somebody said recently, they are refugees from the socialist South, Mr Yewdale: Why don't you get rid of the brief and talk off the cuff? Show some of your nous. Mr WHITE: Like many Opposition members, the honourable member is very sensitive to any form of criticism and about the unemployment problems in the southern States that are controlled by his socialist friends. The economy of Queensland has been well managed over a lengthy period, and in wishing to debate the welfare issue within the narrow confines. Opposition members conveniently overlook the entire focus of Government activity in this State, I turn now to the individual contributions of members. The honourable member for Wynnum led the debate for the Opposition, I regret that copies of my speech were not made avaUable initially, but I understand that they were delivered as he rose to his feet. They were not intentionally withheld from him; it was a genuine oversight. I would add that well before the Estimates debate, the Leader of the Opposition was supplied with documentation relating to the activities of my portfolio, and I had assumed that that material was passed on to the honourable member for Wynnum. The honourable member for Wynnum spoke about the Probation and Parole Service and referred to the staffing problems that occurred there. I think he said that during the last financialyea r there had been an increase of only one in the staff. There was in fact an increase of 10. I acknowledge that some problems are arising in relation to staff. They have to carry a heavy work-load, and that is a direct consequence of the increased use of probation and community service orders. ,That is understandable. The matter will be dealt with. As I have said to a number of people, we have submissions with the Public Service Board and I am hopeful that we will be able to take some of the pressure off the staff, who, I might add, are doing a wonderful job. The honourable member for Wynnum also made reference to the death of a prisoner at the Rockhampton Prison. It is a matter of great concern. The issue of medication is under close examination by my department and the Health Department. It would seem that there is certainly room for improvenaent. The situation at the Brisbane Prison in relation to the administration of medication is regarded as being very satisfactory. Reports that I have received recently indicate that that comment applies to prisons through South-east Queensland. A report from the Government Medical Officer in relation to Rockhampton and Townsville is presently at hand. I hope to study it in detaU in the near future. At present it is being studied by my officers with a view to adopting a more satisfactory and more professional approach towards the administration of medication in the prison system. 1 say to honourable members, opposite that there is a problem. We do not overlook the fact that there are some inadequacies. I will be dping all I can to ensure that the situation is remedied. I move on and thank the member for Caboolture for his remarks and for his interest in and support fpr the Woodford Prison. He has been particularly, interested in that area for a long time and has been a great supporter of tlie outward-looking community 2626 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

approach that has emanated from that prison. Those people who know the Caboohure and Woodford areas recognise the tremendous contribution that that^ institution has made to those communities over many years. On a number of occasions I have had the opportunity to inspect much of the community work that the inmates of the institution are doing: for example, the repainting and refurbishing of the ambulance centre; the restoration and development of the heritage centre; the work on the pre-school and kindergarten and simUar institutions in the Caboolture area; and last, but not least, the repainting and restumping of a magnificent old UnUing Church in the Wamuran area. The member for Aspley made a valuable contribution to the debate. I was glad to note the recognition given by her to the reorganisation of the portfoUo over recent times. There has indeed been a substantial reorganisation of the portfoUo as a whole, which is now transmuting itself right through the various subdepartments. I think it is fair to say that we have a far better organisational structure ih terms of being able to cope with the great strains and demands that are placed on a welfare portfoUo today. I thank the honourable member for that, I was also appreciative Of the honourable membfer's comments on the Disabled Persons Service, Of course, she has had a great deal of interest in that area for many years- well before she entered this Assembly, I took particular notice of her comments about the Department of Children's Services and the need for placement faciUties for adolescent girls, which she drew to the attention of the Committee today, I thank her for her comments about the Prisons Department and would mention that initiatives in relation to staff training are under wa:y, and I hope to make some official comment about that matter in the near future, I am sorry that the member for Bulimba (Mr McLean) is not present in the Oiamber at the riiomerit, but he made a less than informed contribution to the debate, ranging over a variety of matters in a very political way, I think it is probably fair to say that his contribution today was a philosophical or ideological one: that the Government should spend more and more of the taxpayers' money without a great deal of accountability, build up larger and larger bureaucratic stmctures and interfere more and more with the daily lives of individual citizeris, Mr Davis: That was your interpretation; it was not mine,

Mr WHITE: For the benefit of the member for Brisbane Central, I point out that I think he has to recognise that there is a great difference of opinion between many Opposition members and many members on this side of the C3iamber, Government members are committed to helping people meet their individual needs without unnecessary incursions from the State, That is the philosophical difference between us; and that is recognised in the approach that Opposition members adopt. Opposition members, such as the member for Bulimba, simply beUeve that the way to resolve problems in society is to spend more and more of the taxpayers' money, build larger and larger bureaucratic structures and interfere more and more with the daily lives of individual people. In their view, the State should provide all welfare services and become the kind of Big Brother that those of us who value freedom and individual initiatives have good reason to regard with scepticism, I hope that aU of us—even Opposition members—^would be looking for a high standard of living for aU people in Queensland, based on a strong and buoyant economy that can sustain the services provided. It seems to me that many Opposkion members seem to want the benefits of a strong economy. At the same time, they want to be critical and throw cold water on development projects in this State, There is no way that this or any other Government could provide such a level of services, whether in health, education or welfare, if it did not have a buoyant economy to back it up. In fact, that was one of the points made by the member for Lockyer in his powerful statement on the necessary economic base for adequate services in the field of welfare. I was very much aware, as he spoke, of the tragic history of events in Australia when the Whitlam Government decided that it only needed a cheque lxx)k to meet the needs of the AustraUan people. Supl^y: (Estimates) 23 November 1982 2627

I thank the honourable member, too, for his comments about the importance of foster care. That demonstrates the Government's commitment to assisting people to help themselves. In terms of looking after the health and welfare of children, there is no better way of raising chUdren than through the traditional family unit. Where the family unit breaks down and where we have to look at alternatives, we must consider alteraatives that come as close as possible to that model. As the honourable member for Lockyer said, the importance of foster care in the range of services offered by the department is essential, I am glad to express my appreciation to so many wonderful people who co-operate in the foster care program. Between 1 500 and 1 600 children are supported by the foster care program ui Queensland. I particularly congratulate the honourable member for Sherwood for his capacity to take an overall view of the Goveriunent's services as delivered and of the ALP's poUcy as enunciated by the former Opposition spokesman (Mr Fouras) and now by the member for Wynnum (Mr Shaw). The meniber for Sherwood drew attention to the vast cost to the State that would be involved if the ALP's litany of proposals, as he called them, was ever implemented. I was particularly grateful tO him for drawing attention to the manner in which the ALP denigrates the role of volunteers, in comparison with the Government's approach for the provision of services. Mr Yewdale: Who denigrated volunteers? • Mr WHITE: Certainly that was my impression, Mr Yewdale: You made the statement. Follow it up,

Mr WHITE: The point that I made to the Committee was made as a comment on the remarks of the member for Sherwood, who said that many members of the ALP seem to want to downgrade the role of the volunteer and to build up bureaucratic structures. Mr Yewdale: He couldn't qualify it; neither can you.

Mr WHITE: I am referring to the comments he made. Obviously members opposite are sensitive because they rely very heavily on big Government expenditure with an increasing number of social workers and other professional people. I am presently reviewing the position at the Remand Section of the Brisbane Prison. I am conscious of the criticism and of the need for something tp be done. Remand prisoners are currently held in a very old area. Although there is criticism of the facilities there, it does have the advantage of a great deal of space. However, when the full range of Options has been investigated, a positive decision wUl be announced. I hope that k wiU be in the very near future. In TownsviUe, two new medium-security complexes, each accommodating 24 prisoners, will be under construction at an early date, A complete reconstruction of Townsville Prison is presently receiving attention, I now move to the contribution and comments of the honourable member for Archer­ field, who is well-known for his outspoken views on prisons over many years. Some of his conaments and allegations havei caused great embarrassment at times not only to people in the prison system but also to some of his own colleagues, I say to him and tb other members opposite that there has been significant progress m the development pf a new Prisons Act, His criticism of the Prisons Act has a fair degree of validky, but I siay to members opposite that the development of a major new piece of legislation like that takes time and a great deal pf effort, I dispute the pomt that the honourable member made that the department does not have within it sufficient expertise to make a major cpntribution to the examination of the Act, and I think the member for Archerfield and other members opposite wiU recognise that when the BiU comes before the Assembly, A submission on poUcy matters has been prepared and it is to be considered at an early date. When the department is m a position to make some statement on that the member for Archerfield wiU be one of the first to be advised. 2628 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimates)

With reference to the under-utUisation of the present female prison, I mention that one of the options being examined is the possibility of the conversion of the female prison to a remand prison. That was one of the points made by the member for Archerfield, That sort of thing should be looked at. As to the prison rostering system—it is correct that consultants have made a preliminary survey of the situation and their report is now under consideration. There is merit in the suggestion that younger prison officers be given the opportunity to improve themselves by promotion, and plans are being developed for a wide range of options in respect to the development and staffing of the prisons ^tem. The honourable member made serious allegations concerning homosexuality in respect of staff members. Those allegations wiU be investigated. The decision to introduce dogs into prisons was taken after fuU consideration of all facts. Dog Squads are a valuable management aid to the prison system. The honourable member for Gympie outlined the activities undertaken by the Department of Children's Services, and was one of the few members who went to that degree of trouble to indicate to the Committee the vast range of activities and services that are available. He went on to point out some of the special problems being experienced by the young people of today. It is fair to say that he showed a warmth of understanding that is so often lacking when people speak about the youth of today. I am grateful to him for his contribution to this important debate, I am sure all honourable members always look forward to the contribution of the honourable member for Brisbane Central, and today was no exception. If he wants to claim some of the credit for the developments that have taken place at Westbrook over the years, that is OK with me. Anybody who has made constructive comments and has done anything of a positive nature to improve the administration of the State's corrective services has my whole-hearted support. But the facts of the matter are that this facility is a show-piece and a source of pride to the Government and my department in particular. I sincerely hope that the pioneering work, the management stmcture and the program that has been developed by officers such as Alex Lobban at Westbrook wUl continue, I hope, the Parliament gives that sort of support. I really believe that the sort of expertise and programming that has beei;i developed at Westbrook is an example that could be followed in the department's other correctional activities. Recently I appointed Mr Lobban, who was in charge of Westbrook, to head a residential review committee which is looking at all the department's residential structures, I hope that his expertise wUl flow on into such places as Wilson, which has been a great problem for the Government over many years. It is probably fair to say that the major problem at WUson has not been so much one of structure as one of divided authorkies between the Department of Health and the ChUdren's Services Department, The member for Brisbane Central is quite right when he says that it wiU not work. It has not worked in the past and I am hopeful that before long the HcMiouraUe Minister for Health and I will be taking a submission to Cabinet to do something constructive to overcome that problem in the new year. I thank the honourable member for his contribution in that regard. He went on to enunciate his view of the pperatron of the Parole Board, and in particular proposed that applicants for parole should have representation beifore the board. I assure him and other members that the matter, has been raised on |nany occasions in the past and very thorough consideration.^iven to it. The experience of parole boards in other places has been taken into consideration, I think it is fair to say that the ParOle Board is working WeU, and although I realise that no institution is perfect, we should keep an open mind. I have no commitment, and no adrice has come to me from my department that led to the vievi^ that we should make any major change at this time. The facts of Ufe are that people who have offended agadnst the law come before the courts. They have representation before the court, and if they are found guUty they are sent to gaol, and that is where it ought to rest,

Mr Davis: They are also legkimately, seeking, their freedom under an Act of this Parliament, so why shouldn't they be atile to be represented?:^ Su^ly ^timates) 23 November 1982 2629

Mr WHITE: For the benefit of the member for Brisbane C^entrjd, I point out that all prisoners in institutions in this State have the right to apply for pa^role. They also have the right to seek independent legal advice in terms of assessing the preparation of their parole documents. They also have the benefit of advice from welfare officers and visiting people such as psychologists and medical officers, as well as the prison administration kself. There is no intent on the part of prison administrators to keep people in gaol for unnecessarily long periods, I thank the honourable member for Brisbane Central for his contribution; that is recognised as a matter of public record. All I would like to say to him is tliat there is no intention to make any change at the moment, I want to move on and thank the honourable member for Peak Downs for his acknowledgement of the work of the department and my personal involvement in matters touching his electorate. He made relevant comments about what has happened in his electorate and the back-up support and assistance he received from my department. The Labor member for TownsviUe West referred to the housing problems of many famiUes m the community, I make no apology to him or anybody else for any changes that were made to the membership of the area committees of the Queensland Recreation Council. As time goes on the substance of those changes wUl improve the development of recreation in this State, Appointments are made on ability and expertise and not on political patronage. I particularly thank the honourable member for Warwick—^I am sorry that he is not in the Chamber—for his thoughtful and sensitive contribution. He made an excellent speech, and showed a wealth of knowledge of the welfare area. He covered many topics, and was one of the few members who showed a grasp of the range of services offered by the department. He can be assured that the points he raised wUl be given full and careful consideration, particularly the writing of letters to newspapers and matters of that nature, I hope that in the very near future we will be able to make some pubUc comment in relation to those matters, because I believe there is a necessity for some reform. The member for Port Curtis made a disappointing and parochial contribution, perhaps typical of the Labor Party, though I must say that I appreciated the praise he gave to the foster parents program and the contribution to it by departmental officers. The point was made by the member for TownsvUle West that members residing outside the metropolitan area are obliged to make somewhat parochial contributions, I thank the honourable member for Mt Gravatt for his constructive comments on serrices provided for disabled people, particularly by VOLCARE, That valuable program is currently being expanded witli the appointment of VOLCARE co-ordinators in a number of areas. The remarks made by the honourable member about the YES Scheme were very gratifying. It is a very important and successful program for unemployed youth in (Jueensland, The honourable member for Cooroora spoke of the preventive role played by the department, particularly as it relates to the Surf Life Saving Movement, with which he has had a long-standing involvement, I beUeve that he was responsible for initating the helicopter rescue service on the North Coast, It is funded largely by my departrtierit, Westpac and the community. Recently the heUcopter service was expanded by the provision of a second unit on the Gold Coast, The honourable member also drew attention to the need to encourage personal inkiative in young people as opposed to the idea of developing dependency, which seems to charac- teriw the point of view of many Opposition members. The honourable member for Mt Isa made some highly complimentary remarks for which I thank him. He referred in favourable terms to a number of facets pf departmental work. He made some seripus comments about staffing difficulties in Mt Isa, I understand the problems, I suspect v^e all realise that in a State as large as Queensland if is very 4ifficuU to staff isolated areas such as Mt Isa, which is a long way from the coast and from Brisbane, We have a great deal of difficulty, firstly, in acquiring staff and secondly in getting them to stay in Mt Isa, I want him to know that my department wiU give 2630 23 November 1982 Supply (Estimirtes)

serious consideration to that matter, I wiU be asking the Director-General of WeUare Services to get the Director of Children's Services to visk Mt Isa to see what is happening there and what we can do to assist. The honourable member referred to the probation and parole officer who is com­ plaining about his work-load, I wiU get the Chief Probation and Parole Officer, Mr Perkms, to look into that matter. The honourable member for Mt Isa referred also to a report from the Mt Isa Welfare (CouncU that has recently arrived in my department, I have to admk that I have not had an opportunity:, to study the document in any detail, I understand that at this stage some of the assumptions in the report are not supported by my department. The matter wiU be looked into carefully. I assure the honourable member that, despite mmours to that effect, I have no intention of reducing staff levels in his city. I know that the officers are working under difficult circumstances, bearing in mind the level of social pfbblems in the North-west of the State. We have to bear in mind that they are serving the dty of Mt Isa and far-distant areas. T can only assure him that, with the funds avaUable to me, I wiU continue to review,the skuation regularly to ensure that the best possible service is maintained. As to the matter of children being held in the Mt Isa Watchhouse—I assure the honourable member that there wiU be an immediate inquiry into the matter. If there is any irregularity, it wiU be dealt with appropriately. The honourable member for Rockhampton North spoke particularly about the Probation and Parole Service, He reiterated the point made by the honourable member for Wynnum about the staff load. Probably he received a good briefing from the honourable member for Wynnum. It is recognised that the work-load carried by some probation officers is rather sub­ stantial. Although OppOSitioh members made that point, they did not state that the reason for that is the success of the probation service and, more particularly, the development of community service orders. The riiember for Wynnum certainly mentioned that, I do not think there is any doubt that community service orders have been a great success. I look forward to introducing into the Parliament shortly an extension of community service orders to cover fine defaulters, ,i There is no evidence to suggest that the standards maintained over a long period of years by the Probation and Parble Service are falling. On the contrary, the officers con­ cerned carry out a difficult job extremely weU, Contrary to members' views, the Government is far from lopsided in its approach to correctional services. Although I have said on a number of occasions that the correctional service institutions in this State are not perfect, they are far ahead of the services provided in the othe;r States of Australia, We adopt a very balanced approach that ensures a high standard of institutional care for those committed to imprisonment by the courts and an enviably high quality of supervisiion. for those offenders in relation to whom the courts use probation or community service orders, I thank all members who made contributions to today's debate. As I indicated eariier, I will be writing tp honourable members who raised particular problems, and I wiU deal with those.problems in, my letter, I am especially appreciative of the constractive comments made by many honourable memljers today, . At 9,22 p,m„

Votes passed under Standing Order No, 307 and Sessional Order By agreement, under the provisions of Standing Order No, 307 and the Sessional Order agreed to by the House on 21 October, the questions for the following Votes were put by the Chairman and agreed to— Welfare Services— ' $ Chief Office, Department of Welfare Services .. 5,784,600 Balance of Vote, Consolidated Revenue and Trust and Special Funds 68,551,531 Executive and Legislative, Balance of Votes 9,634,900 The Premier 20,459,861 The Treasurer .. ,. .. 366,304,070 Dept. of Employmt, and Labour Rels, Annual Reporting BiU 23 November 1982 2631

Education 838,485,684 Employment and Labour Relations 16,945,100 Enrironment, Valuation and Administrative Services 47,047,093 Health .. .. 696,588,487 Justice and Attorney-General 54,891,653 Local (jovernment. Main Roads and Police 183,034,764 Northern Development and Maritime Services 20,681,153 Primary Industries 79,946,021 Tourism, National Parks, Sport and The Arts 40,892,200 Trust and Special Funds Estimates, Balance of Estimates .. .. 3,155,881,260 Loan Fund Estimates, Balance of Estimates 45,667,000 Supplementary Estimates (Consolidated Revenue) 1981-82 275,246,720 Supplementary Estimates (Trust and Special Funds) 1981-82 244,408,701 Supplementary Estimates (Loan Fund) 1981-82 .. 11,650,692 Vote on Account, 1983-84 1,560,000,000 Resolutions reported, and ordered to be received on Thursday next,

DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND LABOUR RELATIONS ANNUAL REPORTING BILL Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nundah—Minister for Employment and Labour Relations), by leave, without notice: I move— = ' "That leave be granted to bring in a Bill to provide fOr annual reporting of certain activities of the Department of Employment and Labour Relations," Motion agreed to.

First Reading Bill presented and> on motion of Sir WiUiam Knox, read a first time.

Second Reading Hon. Sir WILLIAM KNOX (Nuttdah—MiiniSter for Employment and tabour R.elations) (9.33 p.m.): I move— "That the BUl be now read a second time," Currently, nine of the various Acts administered by the Department of Employment and Labour Relations call for the heads of subdepartments to furaish me with annual reports on the operation and administration of those Acts. Ih view of the number of Acts containing this requirement, it is considered that adminis­ tratively it w^ill be better suited to have a consolidated report prepared and furnished annually by the permanent head of my department. This report will contain information on the operations of the department with regard to the administration of aU legislation under my portfolio, other than the Workers' Compensation Act 1916^1982, and vriU be simUar in format to the reports furaished by the Director-General, Department of Mines, and the Director-General of Health and Medical Services. The BiU proposes that these sundry reports, with the exception of that furnished in relation to the Workers Compensation Board, be replaced by a consolidated report furnished by the permanent head of my department covering a period of 12 months ending on 30 June each year and that I lay the report before ParUament within 14 sitting days from the day on which I receive the report. The report furnished by the Workers Compensation Board is a comprehensive one and published in a most satisfactory bound form. It is considered desirable that this report conti.pue to be furaished separately. Rather than amend those Acts which require an annual report to be made and tabled, provision has been made that the annual report of the perm'anent head wiU be 2632 23 November 1982 Builders' Registrati

sufficient compUance with the prpvisions of annual reporting contained in each of those Acts, I commend the BiU to the House, ^ , Debate, on motion of Mr Burns, adjourned, , ,f

BUILDERS' REGISTRATION AND HOME-OWNERS' PROTECTION ACT AMENDMENT BILL Hon, C. A. WHARTON (Buraett—Minister for Works and Housing)^ by leave, without notice: I move— "That leave be granted to bring in a BiU to amend the Builders' Registration and Home-owners' Protection Act 1979 in certain particulars and for related purposes." Motion agreed to. First Reading Bill presented and, on motion of Mr Wharton, read a first time. Second Reading Hon, C, A, WHARTON (Buraett—Minister for Works and Housing) (9.36 p.m.): I move— "That the BiU be now read a second time," ; The principal Act is a piece of consumer legislation covering the registration of builders in order to protect the community against inefficient or unscrapulous operators, to maintain standards of constmction, to prevent unquaUfied persons entering the industry, to ensure the rectification of faulty buUding work in a reasonable time and to give added protection to home owners through insurance provisions. As a result of litigation and subsequent legal interpretation of various provisions of the Act, certain difficuUies have arisen in its administration. This amending BUl wUl overcome those difficulties. In the preparation of the amending BUl, due consideration has also been given to representations and submissions from aU sections of the building industry and appropriate Government departments and Goverament bodies. In addition, certain amendments have been included which emanate from instructions given by the Audkor-GeneraL The effect of the amending BiU wiU be to clarify and reinforce the original aims of the Act by providing better protection to consumers and ensuring that the measures that can now be taken against unregistered builders or builders exceeding their terms of restricted registration are effective. Legal advice from the Crown Solicitor is that, where there are changes in the membership of registered firms, the firm is no longer entitled to be registered and the provisions of the Act do not apply. This problem affects both the consumer and buUder. A consumer entering into a contract with such a firm is not covered by the insurance provisions of the Act and buUders, because they are no longer a legal entity, are precluded from pursuing moneys owed on contracts entered into lief ore the change in the firm's membership. This problem has been examined in detail and the only solution is not to register firms as registered builders but to require builders to register as either individuals or bodies corporate. In not allowing firms to register as registered builders, it was necessary to include provisions which ensure that builders already trading as firms or partnerships or builders who may wish to trade as firms or partnerships are not disadvantaged. Registered builders wiU not be prevented from carrying on business in partnership with other registered buUders, Also registered buUders wUl be able to trade in partnership with non-registered persons provided the registered builder personally; sighs all building contracts on behalf of the firm or partnership. To ensure that the consumer remains protected when contracting with such a firm containing non-registered persons, the non- registered persons wiU be able to sign an acknowledgement on the contract document that the contract is being entered into on their behalf. This wUl prevent a later denial by the non-registered persons in the partnership that they are party to the contract, particularly if the consumer wishes to sue them, A registered builder wUI be able to use a firm, partnership or business name, thereby preventing any loss of goodwill to the business concerned. However, it wiU be necessary to protect the consumer and ensure that, in any advertisement which uses a business Protection Act Amendment Bill 23 November 1982 2633 name, the registered buUder's name is used in conjunction. Although no further firms will be registered, all firms and partnerships that are aheady registered wUl be given sufficient time to comply with the new registration procedures by aUowing them to remain registered for a certain period after the BiU has been enacted. It wUl be an offence for a non-registered builder to purport to be a registered builder. It will also be an offence for a registered builder to imply that a non-registered builder is registered by reason of the non-registered builder's membership of a firm which contains a registered buUder, Concern has been expressed that income may not be assessed on a shared basis where a building contract is signed by one member of a firm or partnership without any reference to a partnership or a business name. This matter was referred to the Australian Taxation Office and legal opinions have been obtained and, upon advice given, the amendments have been drafted so as to ensure that builders will not be disadvantaged in this regard. To maintain the viability of the insurance fund, a provision has been inserted that, where a body corporate has paid-up capital of less than $1(X),0(X), the directors may be required to proride personal guarantees prior to the registration of the body corporate. As a result of a Full Court decision, a new clause has been included which provides that, where the board has acted under the insurance provisions of the Act, it will not be deemed to be biased in endeavouring to take disciplinary action against the builder. I now refer to submissions made by the Builders' Registration Board of Queens­ land. A new clause has been included which provides that the board may make application to a Supreme Cburt judge in chambers for the issue of a stop work order on construction work undertaken by unregistered builders, builders exceeding theiir conditions of restricted registration or persons constmcting their own dwelling-houses illegally, A new clause has been included which gives the board the authority to review restricted registration at any time. This vrill be of benefit where a buUder is performing satisfactorily, as the board wiU be able to approve full registration prior to the expiration of the restriction period. In addition, where the builder is not competent, the board wUl be able to take appropriate action with regard to his registration and prevent further unsatisfactory work being performed. This wiU be of obvious benefit to the consumer and should also benefit the insurance scheme by reducing the number of insurance pay-outs. The board wiU be given more flexibility when taking disciplinary action against registered buUders by the inclusion of a new clause which gives it the authorky to direct a builder to rectify unsatisfactory work and, if necessary, to suspend the bqilder from all otlier work apart from remedial work as directed by the board. The administration of the Act wHl be streamUned and the consumer better protected by the inclusion of a new clause which allows the board to delegate to the chairman of the board or the registrar its powers to order builders to rectify unsatisfactory work. That provision was included as sucli decisions need to be made on a day-to-day basis, whereas the Ixiard itself meets periodically. Delegation pursuant to this clause will not be permitted wkhout the approval of the Minister for Works and Housing, who will at all times have the power to rescind approval given. Amendments which have been included in accordance with instractions given by the Auditor-General relate to reports by the board, the establishment of funds, audits and financial statements, the investment pf funds and the control of money and property. Other sigmficant amendments ensure that the registrar has the authority to initiate a complaint, require a body corporate to nominate a person to manage and supervise its construction work, remove the requirement of the board to register persons not having the financial resources to carry on business as a registered builder and finally simplify court procedures with regard to matters not normally challenged by the defendant. I commend the BUl to the House. Mr Mackenroth: Can I ask the Minister if he is prepared to allow the Bill to lie on the table of the House for seven days? Mr WHARTON: Ves, I>ebate, on motion of Mr Mackenroth, adjouraed. 2634 23 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

CASINO CONTROL BILL Second Reading—Resumption of Debate Debate resumed from 9 November (see p. 2079) on Dr Edwards's motion— "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Mr D'ARCY (Woodridge) (9.44 p,m,): Tonight marks another episode in the sad and sorry saga of the CKieensland Government's establishment of a casino in the State. In introducing the Clasino Control BiU on 9 November 1982, the Treasurer stated that it was the first BiU in a pack of legislation that wUl provide for the operation of gaming in Queensland, In introducing the successful southern Queensland licensees on 9 March, Dr Edwards stated— ''W^en the agreement is finalised I will present legislation incorporating an agreement to be signed by the proposed southern Queensland casino licensee and this Government," " He then said^, "A casino control BUl, that will have appUcation to the operation of both casinos, will then follow," Of course, that has not happened, and I ask Dr Edwards if h^,feels, that he has kept faith with the ParUament on this matter when there, has been so rnuch public speculation, I ask for an explanation, I don't beUeve that the various reports and papers he tabled in the House since his original statement on 9 March are good enough. The legislation does not answer many of the questions that Opposition members have poSed over the past 12 months or'so, I doubt very much that this Government even now realises the total impUcations of the estabUshment of a casino in southern Queensland. It is the poUcy of the ALP to introduce casinos into Queensland, and over the last decade I have been an advocate and architect of part of that pOUcy, As many members would realise, I also have intimate knowledge of casinos in Australia and overseas. It is for these reasons that I view this legislation, introduced by a Government which, in my opinion, does not understand the fuU impUcations of the introduction of casinos into the State of Queensland, with great trejpidation. ^ It is easy to caU Press speculation down on casinos by shouting "graft and corruption", but when we dig a lot deeper and reaUse the massive implications of casinos we realise that this legislation could open, and I stress the word "could" the way for the greatest scandals in Queensland's history. The actions of the Government to date with regard to the casinos prove that k has little knowledge pf the massive task that faces it, AU the fine speeches by the Treasurer about integrity mean absolutely nothing when we sum up the problems of the Government to date, I am sure that Dr Edwards, and even Mr Bjelke-Petersen, who are both weU known for their anti-gambling stance, have no concept that the cash flows generated by casinos are so huge that theji' transcend the normal behavioural patterns of evfti the most powerful people, and I refer to the corruption by gambUng lobbies of police, gambling control boards, politicians and even the judiciary.

London, for example, is one of the biggest and richest casino ckies in the world, but for the past three years it has been rocked by a series of raids, scandals, frauds and bannings that have turaed what w^as a gamblers' paradise into something resembling a cross between a battlefield and a graveyard. If one ever wanted to find out how not to run a casino, London would be the model to observe. The lesson to be draw^n from that model is that if fools and their money wish to be parted then there are people who will find a way of accelerating the process, and no amount of legislation, good or bad, will stop the process when it reaches the proportions that it has in London, The Ust of allegations of cormption is long and formidable, and formerly reputable MPs, Lords and knights, businessmen, poUce, bureaucrats and judges have all been dragged into involvement in practices that were illegal under British legislation. Casino Control BiU 23 November 1982 2635

It was only in 1960 that gambling was legalised in the United Kingdom, and in 1968 a new gamblmg Act laid down the rales under which casinos could be set up and operated—rules designed to minimise dodgy piactice, fraud and unfair advantage. It is obvious that aU of them have failed. In Nevada, the gambUng capital of the world, legislation has been continually upgraded, but initial backing of the major concerns by criminal organisation such as the Mafia wUI not subside. The sheer massiveness of the gambling in Las Vegas can only be understood when one reads of a journalist who interviewed a player who had lost $777,000 on a single roll of the dice and one realises that $1,423,623,1()2 is the amount that Las Vegas took from gambling guests over the year 1980-81, Analyse that against the figures that show that there were 34257 serious crimes, including 92 murders, giving Las Vegas the highest per capita crime rate in the United States. There are 10 OOO prostitutes active in the city, according to the Bureau of Statistics, that is, one in every nine women m the area between the ages of 15 and 39 years. The State has the highest alcoholism rate in the country and a suicide rate of nearly double the national average. All that is in addition to a storm of casino and hotel fires, including two in the winter of 1981 that killed a total of 92 people and injured more than 9(X). This has great implications for Queensland because Ucensed casinos are being introduced with this legislation. Indeed the Government is introducing them with this legislation, which is almost identical to the legislation introduced for licensing casinos in Atlantic City, New Jersey in 1978. Even in the few short years that the legislation has been in force, a massive scandal has already taken place in New Jersey involving the judiciary and a gaming commissioner. The "New York Times" editorial on 31 January, 1981, when counseUing for caution about further casino operations in the United States, said— "Results in New Jersey however have fallen far short of the now familiar sales pkch. Officials have had their hands full contending with organised crime." Abscan revealed how susceptible public officials are to gambling interests seeking big gains. Ckimpanies such as Resorts International are buying up property arousing fears that Atlantic City wiU soon become a maUgnant company town. The boom has also bypassed many Atlantic City residents who are being displaced from their homes and ignored by the employers. We must ask ourselves in Queensland if we wiU be able to enforce not just this legislation but the spirit of the legisilation. No amount of legislation wiU keep the casinos in Queensland clean. It is the spirit of the legislation and the background to it that will be important in Queensland, What we should be aiming at is keeping the casino operations clean but we will not achieve that while important members of this Goverament, including the Premier and the Deputy Premier, faU to understand what they are really forcing on the State of Queensland, In times of great social change casinos should be a part of that change, without leading to the degradation of society in the State, They should be a major part of bolstering finance in the tourist industry and supplying thousands of jobs throughout Queensland, of improving the tourist capacity of our State and supplying tens of thousands of anciUary jobs in that industry as well as in many service industries that are essential to well-mn hotel/casino operations on the Gold Cbast and in Toiwnsville, The Government should realise how the tourist industry conventions, promotions, the hire-car and bus industry, accommodation and restaurants wiU be affected by the interest that a casino can generate. Successful casinos are operating in AustraUa at the moment. Probably the one at Wrest Point, Hobart, is the most successful one. It was the first casino in Australia. Tasmania gained tremendous tourist advantages through its operations. The Wrest Point casino has been kept clean, I know a good deal about its operations. It is still smaU compared with what the Government intends tp foist on the people of Queensland, The Townsville casino will not be as large as Wrest Point, although it vrill be equal in size to many others operating illegally in Queensland, The big czars in crime throughout the world are not interested in the small casino to be buiU in Tovmsville, but the Gold Cbast casino is an entirely different matter. In time, it wiU be one of the biggest casino operations 'n the world. 2636 23 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

I have outUned some of the good points in favour of casinos. The Labor Party beUeves that it could control casino operations by appointing appropriate personnel and bring benefits to the State through the gambling taxes that such an enterprise' will generate. The Bill that is being presented pre-empts a second BiU for each of the casino sites involving an agreement or contractual legislation covering the corporate structure of companies operating in TownsviUe and on the Gold Coast, In the light of the drastic changes made by the Jennings group, it is not good enough for this ParUament to have to accept the Treasurer's assurance on company structure. Parliament wUl have to deal with the regulations and the subsequent Bills, It wiU be a formidable task indeed, as the regulations wiU also determine the Goverament's capacity to avoid a major scandal, I was a critic of the Government's original proposal to establish a casino. Members would remember that the whole concept of a casino in Queensland was rushed on us a few days before the 1980 election. The Minister said that when the member for South Coast was in trouble, the first concept of a casino was put forward. For the most poUtical of reasons, after resistance for many years, a casmo was to be estabUshed in Queensland, It did not take very long, Mr Borbidge: There was a conference six months before. Mr D'ARCY: There may have been. It might have helped the honourable member with his seat, too. Obviously, other members on the Gold Coast had an interest in it. Many motions have been passed at National Party conferences that have never come before this House, This legislation was mshed before the House with undue haste. By publishing a newspaper advertisement, the Goverament called appUcations in a hurried and very unusual way from' people interested in establishing a casino, I was critical of it at the time; I am stiU critical of the way in which the Goverament went about it. That was the advertisement that was supposed to give Queensland its first casino. It was the story of the cart before the horse. Under the heading "Proposals for Queensland Casino Licence" the advertisement stated— "Separate proposals are sought by the Queensland Government for the con­ stmction of an international standard tourist complex and for the operation of a casino therein, one at a site in southern Queensland and the other at a Site in northern Queensland, The Goverament's broad objectives are—" the usual ethical objectives are stated—- "(a) the highest standard of casino facUkies and an impeccable Operation;" We have heard it so often. What does it mean? On every occasion the Government has said, and it stiU says in this BiU, "You show us what you wUl give us and we will teU you if we want it." A proper inquiry, similar to that which was held in Tasmania, New South Wales and Victoria, should have been held at which people were able to make an inpiit into the intricacies of a casino in this State, The Government should then have drawn up the guide-Unes and asked somet}ody to comply with them. The tourist operators should not be asked for the guide-lines. That is what has happened ri^t through this operation. , The advertisement set the pattern fpr tbe casinp fiasco in Queensland,,, It was a case of, "You tell us what we should have in the way of a casino and how k jhpuld be run, and we wUl teU you whether it is acceptable," The first step should have been an inquiry simUar to that conducted in Victoria, The chairman of the British Gaming Commission. Sir Stanley Raymond, said that that was the only way to go about it. He pointed out the problems that were experienced in England with what he believed was good legislation that did not work. After the appUpations came the usual political drama that surroui^s the granting of any "plum" by the Queensland Government, "There were Ministers opposing Ministers; Government members opposing. Goverament members; parties opposing each other and divided internally over this issue. The headUnes at the time included: "Coalition split on coast casino"; "'Dirty tricks' in Queensland casino race alieged*';"Casino bidder Casino Control BUl 23 November 1982 2637 may withdraw"; "Mafia is here—casino witness"; "Applicant for casino lied: MLA"; "Minister says yes to pokies"; and "Sullivan promotes Asian casino" I think I have probably raised a relevant point with that article. That is why I kept it tiU last. We went through that nerve-wracking period in Queensland poUtics during which the Press, the Government and every member of Parliament, because of the Goverament's ineptitude, was held up to public ridicule. It happens in Queensland with regular monotony. Mr Burns: Winchester South. Mr D'ARCY: That is so. One could go through aU the appUcations, including Winchester South. The headlines that surround the application would have led any objective oljserver to believe that the Goverament was again deaUng with some sort of Tammany HaU organisation whose most jiowerful character and lobbyist could produce the most corrapt result. Although the people of Queensland have learned to accept the inept handling of important economic and social decisions in this State by this (jovernment, it is encouraging to note that the Queensland Government was severely criticised by the Press, particularly the southern Press, on the day. I believe k was a most unfortunate way in which to commence negotiations for one of the most important Ucences to be granted by a Govern­ ment in this State. The Bill does little to quell my fears that Queensland could become a hotbed for scandal through the powerful pressures exerted by those who are seeking to manipulate the gaming industry in this State, Yesterday in , the former head of the British Gaming Board, Sir Stanley Raymond, said that unless gaming was controlled casinos could become almost a state within a State. Sir Stanley Raymond said that no Government could drift into the question of where casinos should be introduced and the purpose of the form of gambling to be introduced should be understood. He was warning Victoria that if it thought it would raise revenue it could turn out a very costly exercise, I believe his warning should have been issued to the Queensland Government, which, in the most inept and unskUled way imaginable, has drifted into the question of establishing a casino. It appears to me that the Government has been taken by every trick that companies and gamblers wiU use when playing for high stakes. Sir Stanley Raymond said also that the Gaming Board tried to ensure that those who own casinos were in Britain and that its control over an operation was lost when the casino was owned by overseas investors. He said the board had problems with foreign investors relying heavily on casinos in London which were owned by the Playboy organisation. He said that money generated in the casino could be used to prop up another company venture and added that that could cause problems for those who owned casinos when pledges Were caUed in. Queensland is not learning from that expert advice or from experience. As yet, Queensland has not got a final corporaite structure for the casinos. Anyone who has read comments made abput the business structure of casino operations in Queensland must be concerned. On 13 March the "Business Review Weekly" referred to the "mystery man" in the Jennings deal. We all remember the companies that were supposedly in and supposedly oiit, on the merry-go-round. Queensland Press was never really in; k never admitted it was in until the last minute, and then it was out. Kings Car Parking Company came in and went out when Sir Roderick Proctor would not aUow the South Africans in. Genting got' out for that reason, Carlton United Brewery got out when Federal Hotels was kicked out by the Premier, In addition to the seven big companies that either pulled out or were forced out of the consortium since March, when the Jennings Group won the right to the licence franchise, others who went through the revolving door of consortium participation were the Myer .group, the Northern Holdings group, the Regional Media group and the Queensland State Government Insurance Office, ; It felt that an investment by it in Queensland casinos might not look right. 2638 23 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

Having looked at the list of names of the companies involved, we must look at some of the comments made by the Treasurer in this House about the corporate stracture. He said that he would be presenting to Parliament a subsequent Bill, despke the fact that on 9 May, when he announced the granting of the licence, he said— "I inform the House that the preferred submission for the southern Queensland casino licence was that presented by Jennings Industries Ltd, on behalf of Jupiter's Hotel Pty Ltd. At the moment, Jupiter's Hotel Pty Ltd is a wholly owned sub­ sidiary of Jennings Industries Ltd, but it wiU be incorporated to include founding equity participation from Jennings Industries Ltd, Kings (Dar Parking Company (Qld) Pty Ltd, Northern Star Holdings Limited, Myer Group and Federal Hotels Ltd. The public will have the opportunity to eventually take up to 45 per cent of the equity." I wish the Treasurer would listen, because this is his statement, and none of this has come to pass. He said— "This equity participation would follow the conversion of interest-bearing notes to shares within a set period. The concept is to allow the public of Queensland to participate in the venture with a high degree of security and with the prospect of a reasonable return from the date of the investment. Founding institutional investors will also take up equity of approximately 27,5 per cent through a convertible note issue. In the final analysis, the equity will represent some SllOm of the cost of the project that is estimated at apprppmately $167,5m," Of course, that has all changed. The winning tenderer for the Gold Coast casino licence, Jupiter or Jennings, is now to be the operator. The companies mentioned by the Treasurer as participating companies with Jennings or Jupiter—^Kings (Har Parking Company (Qld) Pty Ltd, Northern Star Holdings Limited, the Myer Group and Federal Hotels Ltd-—are no longer participating in the hotel operation. In fact, Northern Star Holdings Ltd and the Myer Group were never participants. It was a figment of the Treasurer's imagination. Those companies never even got in, as was pointed out by "Business Weekly Review" According to the Treasurer himself, Jupiter wiU now own and operate the southern casino, Jupiter's corporate stmcture now involves Jennings Industries Ltd, the Common­ wealth superannuation group, SFIT, and World Resort Pty Ltd, the operator of the northera casino. It is also apparent that World Resort Pty Ltd, the operator at Genting, wiU be the major force behind the operations of Jupiter in the southern casino, I suppose that that company has supplied the money, so why should it not operate the casino? This is all part of the foreign money that is coming into this country. World Resort is a massive company based in Malaysia. It mns the Genting casino north of Kuala Lumpur, and it is bringing massive amounts of foreign capital into the operation—something that Sir Stanley Raymond says is fraught with danger. It is impossible to understand the jockeying of the interaal corporate stracture of Jupiter after it was granted the licence in Queensland. There is no doubt in my mind that the Government refused Federal Hotels' application, as the original operator for Jennings for political reasons. The tongue-in-cheek statement by the "Business Weekly Review" confirmed that. The Goverament said that it' would create a monopolistic situation in Queensland. As we are all aware, that is so much hog-wasH, There is no doubt that an Australian operator with expertise and without a crime base would have been preferable within the JupUer stmcture, even if the operation that it had to mn in southern Queensland would be, far more compUcated, much more complex and vastly larger than the ones thait it was running in other parts of Australia. That puts paid to the statement that there wUl be a monopoly in Queensland, Whoever operates the casino in Queensland will have a monopoly in casinos throughout Australia- make no mistake about that. One also must wonder about the security checks that the Government has carried out on the personnel. The detaUs of aU companies and their association wkh the structure, including the directors of those companies, their holdings, positions and addresses, should be puUished by the Government in a pubUc journal and in the newspapers in this State. Casino Contiol BUl 23 November 1982 2639

It would be ridiculous to suggest that Government telexes to Interpol to check on a large, powerful company like World Resort would unearth any corruption. It is more likely that the request to Interpol would be passed onto the poUce forces in the area, and that the inspector handling it would request library search material, which would not possibly give any offence to a major company operating in that area, I am not suggesting that the Genting group has anything to hide but, if it did, it would be powerful enough to hide it within its own company. It would have had the infonnation removed from any records. It would be like the New South Wales poUce receiving a telegram for information on the Nugan Hand Bank some eight years ago. One could imagine what the reply would have been. The police would have said that they had no information about any malpractices, Dr Edwards: What are you trying to say? Mr D'ARCY: I am trying to equate cases, Dr Edwards: I wish you would say what you mean, Mr D'ARCY: I am equating cases. If Interpol had asked the New South Wales police for information on the Nugan Hand Bank years ago, it would not have been able to provide it, I saw the information that came in, and I appreciate the fact that I had an opportunity to see it. But is that substantial enough when we are looking at an international operator? I do not think that it is. Members of the iwlice force say that that information would not be provided, I do not believe that there should be major overseas control in any section of any casinos in Queensland, The Government is making a huge mistake, I retura again to the Treasurer's speech in which he aimounced the acceptance of the Jennings tender. He said that the pubUc would have an opportunity eventually to take up a 45 per cent equity. He has admitted that that wUl be changed. Why has he not indicated the intricate detaUs behind these changes and the reasons for them? The next question that must be asked is: "How many more changes wiU there be before the promised casinos eventuate in Queensland?" One of Dr Edwards's coUeagues said of him recently, and in pubUc, that Dr Edwards thought keno was a dress worn by Japanese women. Unfortunately, I believe that in this game of high political stakes Dr Edwards has been used as a pawn. In my opinion, his distrust and disUke of gambling—perhaps even his hatred of it—have been a tremendous disadvantage to the establishment of casinos in Queensland, He totally fails to understand the possibility of mismanagement of casinos. Although he states publicly and within the House that he is vigUant against the crimmal element creeping into casinos in Queensland, he really has no concept of how it could occur or is likely to come about. The people he has surrounded himself with—his advisers in this matter-^I have the utmost respect for personally. Those who are within the Treasury have done a tremendous job, but I am afraid that in this instance they are dealing with one of the most dangerous elements in the world. They could be babes in the wood combating the serious problems that I see arising from the estabUshment of casinos in Queensland, I do not believe m the adage "Fight crime wkh crime", but 1 do believe that we need experts of the toughest kind who know both sides of the fence in the casmo business to further advise us on legislation for the establishment of casinos in our State, I feel that I have found several glaring discrepancies and weaknesses in the BiU. I might also add that I started reading k at only a fairly late hour. If we had a team of experts at our disposal, I imagine that we would find many other weaknesses that TOuld give a toe-hold in the casinos of Queensland to those people who are setting out to defraud. Along with many others who have criticised the corporate structure and its many changes over the past few months, I would like to know vvhy so many reputable companies have wkhdrawn their support from the project. We are not privy to the background nnancial information and detail on how the companies have set up their structures and now they intend to make a profit. However, there is serious concern within the business community and within the inteUigent casino community throughout the world that is monitoring what is going on in AustraUa, and in Queensland in particular, that the 2640 23 November 1982 Casino Control BiU companies have not properly done their homework. That is what is being said. I do not know whether it is true or not, I have it on expert authority that the original financial structure wUl not be a success without the estabUshment of poker machines and slot machines within the structure of casinos in Queensland, That could be requested, organised and authorised by a company that was stmgglmg. That may be true or not true, but it is disturbing to note that withm the clauses of the Bill k would take only a regulation gazetting a game and gammg equipment to bring those electronic machines to Queensland— that is, poker machines—without legislation. It would mean that the addition of gaming devices to the list of games played m Queensland would not have to be debated by the Pariiament, To me, that is ommous, despite the categorical denials of Dr Edwards that poker machines wiU be allowed in Queensland, I am shocked that the exercise has been a ham-fisted one in which many people have already been hurt, I am disappointed at some of the debates that have preceded this one, especially when so many character assassinations, have taken place in the quest for Queensland's casino licences. High stakes are involved, 1 do not beUeve that the Government has continually acted in good faith in this matter. As I have already said, no amount of legislation wiU ever protect the integrity of casmos in Queensland or anywhere else. Mr Innes: Have you got any interests in Federal Hotels? Mr D'ARCY: No, none at aU, Mr Innes: Any shares? Mr D'ARCY: No, none at aU. What we need is a Government that could interpret the spirit of the legislation— a spirit that should be based on integrity and honesty, but enforced by people who have expert knowledge and experience—in dealing with the massive and unpredictable problems associated with keeping casinos clean. If this legislation is any criterion, I do not believe that we yet have it in Queensland. In my opinion, poUtical pressure has been exerted in the drafting of the legislation that gives it inherent weaknesses. The people of Queensland could suffer rather than gain advantage from the establishment of casinos in this State, Opinions have been proffered that this BiU is open to abuse because of its centralisation of power. That is my advice from a QC, Graft and corruption on a high level cannot be overlooked, bearing in mind the provisions in the BiU, I now turn to some of the clauses in the BUl with which one must concern oneself to gain an overall impression of it. The BHl provides that "game"— "means any game notified in the Gazette, together wkh an account of the rules for the playing thereof, by the Minister as a game that may be conducted or played in a casino pursuant to a casino licence." The BUl also contains a definition of "gaming equipment" which, as I understand it, would allow any gaming equipment, including poker machines, to be used in a casino. If regulations prevent that, I hope the Minister says so. Some concera has been expressed about the secrecy provisions of the Bill and the penalties provided for. There is alWays concera not only in political circles but also in bureaucratic circles about information being leaked to the media. That has happened in the past and I expect that it wUl happen again. There is no real way of controlling that kind of secrecy provision and it, together with the penalty provided for, is not really good enough, I am concerned about identification cards because today those things are being duplicated. The criminal mind is tiecoming more adept at using electronic information. Experience in very many places throughout the world where they are not used proves that identification cards for key personnel at a casino can be a disadvantage. The crux of the legislation is clause 31, which provides for the cancellation or suspension of casino Ucences and for letters of censure. Some change had been mooted to this clause. The Minister said in his second-reading speech that the legislatioii was based on this clause and that it is most important that the Governinent have absolute power in this area. He said that it was absolutely essential for the good running of the Bill. Other provisions in the BUI make it appear that employees and key personnel might be discriminated against, Qause 31 provides for the canceUation of a licence by the Government if a casino licensee is convicted of an indictable offence, whether on indictment Casino Control Bill 23 November 1982 2641

or summarily, which is punishable by imprisonment for 12 months, I understand that the Minister has a discretion, but everybody is aware that under today's laws some driving and other offences carry penalties of 12 months in gaol. That appears to be a discrepancy that favours the employer over the employee, I am tremendously conceraed about a clause that provides for the adjustment of payment of a casino tax and, in certain circumstances, the community benefit levy. In my experience nowhere else in Australia or in the world are the losses of a casino underwritten by a Government, My understanding is that the BiU provides for underwriting for one month the losses of a casino operator or lessee, Dr Edwards: That is not right, Mr D'ARCrY: That is what the Bill provides. The BUl states— "If the total of all sums, including cheques whether collected or not, actually received in any month by a casino operator from the conduct of gambUng is less than the total of aU sums paid out as winnings during that month in respect of gammg ," That means that a loss has been incurred, , . Dr Edwards: You only pay tax on winnings, Mr D'ARCY: No, it is supposed to be a tax on turnover, I thought that is what the Government originally provided for. Even when a loss is incurred an operator should still have to pay tax. That is what happens in casinos elsewhere, Dr Edwards interjected, Mr D'ARCTY: Of course they do. They run the risk of incurring losses, I believe that the Deputy Premier and Treasurer has been convinced that there will be no losses and therefore is not worried about it. Does the Treasurer say that when a bookmaker at Eagle Farm incurs a loss on one day it will be deducted from his winnings the following week? Dr Edwards: You have not read the definitions, Mr D'ARCY: Is the Treasurer saying that he will be able to deduct the following month's payments from the payments of the previous month? Dr Edwards: I wUl give you an answer in due course, Mr D'ARCTY: Nowhere can that possibly happen. The State could quite easily be defrauded over a period. If the corporate situation is as weak as many people are saying, and if the financial backing is as weak as business circles are saying, it means that the company could force the Government into introducing poker machines. The company could force the Goverament into a situation in which it would be footing the company's bills during that period, Dr Edwards: I thought you knew a bit about casinos. Mr D'ARCY: I know a bit about them, and I can see what is going on here, I think It is crazy. Can the Treasurer tell me of another casino that operates under that mle? I do not know of any, Ortainly those operating in Australia do not. One might be found in a backward country overseas, but nowhere else. The other point that absolutely amazes me is that there is a penalty for late pay­ ment. Has anyone ever seen anything so ridiculous? Who wrote that in? The operator? As I understand it, most Governments that have casino legislation force companies to set up a fund that has to be in credit in order to ensure payment of those fees. The Treasurer is saying that there will be a penalty for late payinent. It is said that^ "Penalty at the rate of 5 per centum shaU be charged and become due and payable forthwith on the amount of any casino Ucence fee, casino tax or casino communky benefit levy remaining unpaid after the date on which it becomes due and payable," ' 2642 23 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

For goodness sake! I wonder what sort of a casino the Government vriU be running under that type of legislation. Is the Treasurer trying to tell me that the casino company in which he has so much faith can leave an amount unpaid and that the Government will charge it interest? Every other country has a fund in tmst to enable payment to be made on the due date. My friend Sir Stanley Raymond from the United Kingdom now says that although casinos paid an enormous amount of t^c, the amount owed could he legitimately used before it had to be paid. Those casinos are investing on the short-term money market with the money they are holding to be paid as tax at the end of the month. It is legitimate for those casinos to withhold the tax for that period, but the Treasurer is saying that a penalty will be imposed if the Queensland casino does not pay on the due data It is absolutely scandalous that that provision appears in the BiU, The company should not be penaUsed for late payment; its Ucence should be revoked immediately. Another section of the Bill relating to drop boxes concerns me, particularly in relation to logistics. As I understand it, there will he two double locks on the drop boxes. If I have deciphered the provision correctly, one of the double locks secures the drop box to the gaming table, I £un concerned about the logistics involved in a casino of the nature and magnitude of the Gold C^ast operation. The Treasurer should understand that the keys to the double locks on the drop boxes would be held by the casino operator and an inspector. To have sufficient inspectors on the floor to pick up the drop boxes with the regularity that is required will cause serious logistic problems, I hope that also means that a Government official and not the inspectors on the floor—I hope I have not read that wrongly-^will have the key to the secondary lock on the main box. There is another point about gambling that concerns me greatly. It is something that, to my knowledge, is condoned only in countries in which spiv practices are carried on, and that is where a gaming table limit can be changed on only 20 minutes' notice. That does happen in some States in the United States of America, but, to my kmnvledge, 30 minutes to an hour's notice must be given. To my knowledge, that does not occur elsewhere in Australia, or did not imtU recently. It is a dangerous practice to change the Umit, Any gambler would understand that it changes the entire game. There would be no difficiUty if it was done on a sessional basis. If sessions were set down to be from midday to 6 o'clock and from 6 o'clock to 9 or 10 o'clock at night, that would be different. But under this legislation the sessions wiU be laid down by regulation. The short notice would mean that a vrinnlng gambler, or a losing gambler, for that matter, could be seriously disadvantaged by the casino lessee. It should not be up to the casino lessee to change the limits on the table. In my opinion they should not be changed in a session. The 20 minutes' notice cannot be policed. According to my information, there will not be enough inspectors on the floor to protect the cUents, That provision has to be changed if the gamblers are to be protected. One clause on page 34 absolutely mystifies me. Under this provision the Government is giving the open sesame to the laundering of money, I fail to understand why the provision is there, Mr Borbidge: Which clause is that? Mr D'ARCY: It is on page 34, Mr Moore: Since when have you been able to refer to clauses at this stage of the debate? Mr D'ARCY: The provision is on page 34, about Unes 20 to 25, Any operator of a casino knows that such a provision gives an open sesame to the laundering of money. Some of the Gold Ck)ast Building Society people got into trouble in Tasmania in exactly the same way. The Goverament is virtuaUy saying that the casino patron who offers a $10,000 cheque which is accepted by the casino licensee can gamble for some time and, when he leaves the casino, he can request cash in exchange for his gambling chips. Dr Edwards: He has to have his credit established. Casino Control BUl 23 November 1982 2643

Mr D'ARCY: I reaUse that. If a fambler who has a credit rating with the casino brings in a cheque on an account containing black money, he can turn it over, and the Government is virtually saying that he can walk out with cash, or a cash cheque. He can then say to the Taxation Commissioner, "I won this money ganibling at the Southern Queensland casino," That door is being left open. The Treasurer should understand that if a man came in with black cash and asked for a cheque the casino licensee would refuse his request. That is not a matter of concern to the Government, but the casino licensee would naturaUy refuse the request because it would be a disadvantage to him to accede to it. Under this provision, by way of regulation, the Goverament is giving the open sesame to the laundering of money. The Treasurer mil have to explain it differently to me because that is what is provided. In no casino in AustraUa can a person drink and gamble at the tables but, according to the legislation, gamblers wiU certainly be able to do that, Dr Edwards: You can gamble at any table, Mr D'ARCY: C^n people drink there at the same time? The BiU provides— "A casino operator shall not sell, give or distribute intoxicating liquor to any person at a gambUng table or at any other playing area within a casino," In a casino complex in a hotel there are other bars and drinking, faciUties, The legislation does not prevent or forbid people from taking drinks to a table, Dr Edwards: That wiU be covered by the regulations, * ' Mr D'ARCTY: The Goverament is leaving it vride open. Dr Edwards: It will be covered by the regulations, . Mr D'ARCY: Let us see the regulations. Under the legislation pepiple wiU be allowed to drink and gamble at a gambling table, Dr Edwards: That is utter mbbish, Mr D'ARCY: The regulations might explain what a prescribed time is, A later provision is in these terms— "All cheques received by a casino operator in respect of gaming that are not redeemed in accordance with section 69 shall be banked by him within the prescribed time." Another section provides that there wUl be no post-dated cheques. Any casino operator or lessee knows that that section makes rubbish of a post-dated cheque. What is the prescribed time? I hope that that is within the regulations, too, Dr Edwards: Any casino operator who accepts a post-dated cheque needs his head read, Mr D'ARCTY: That is true. We are not talking about post-dated cheques. The casino operator is being allowed to bank a cheque received over the table witliin a prescribed time. In other words, the cUent is being allowed time to pay. That clause negates post-dated cheques. The Treasurer does not understand what is going on. It is of tremendous concern to people who know something about the operation of casinos. There are ways in which casinos can be manipulated and used. The legislation wiU not do anythmg to stop the real crooks. The legislation should at least be tight enough to ensure that the casino operator is not aUowed to get his fingers m the tUl. To some extent he is being allowed a very wide range of activities. The BUl contains a clause in relation to cheating that says "by fraudulent use of any instrument or any article" As I understand it, a bad cheque would be a fraudulent mstrument. So that anybody who passed in a casino a cheque that was dishonoured would be liable for the penalties provided. Under the legislation, the penalty is $20,000 in the case of a body corporate and $10,000 in the case of an individual. Although there 8 reference to penalties, there is no provision for restitution. If somebody is caught Cheating, there is no provision for restitutipn either to the Goverament or to the operator. jt is a normal procedure within other legislation throughout the world to have provision tor restitution. Dr Edwards interjected. 2644 23 November 1982 CaSino Control Bill

Mr D'ARCY: The Treasurer wUl have a chance to answer my questibns. If the Treasurer understands the spirit of the legislation, we probably can have well-run casinos in Queensland, Although the Treasurer laughs, there are many people in this State who are seriously worried about the discrepancies within the legislation and the format under which casinos have been introduced into Queensland to date. Despite the Treasurer's frivolity, I beUeve that he is genume in his concern to keep crime out of Queensland's casmos. I beUeve that his staff have been genuine, that they have a massive job to do for Queensland, and that that job should be done. Many strong men and many strong legislators throughout the world have failed. I was disturbed that, instead of the criticism that I put forward being listened to, there was frivoUty from the Government benches, particularly from the Treasurer. This is a massive job, and it should be taken seriously. If the Treasurer does not take it seriously, I am conceraed about his integrity. To date, I have not been concerned about his integrity. I beUeve that the Treasurer has seriously tried to introduce legislation that at least can be said to be clean and honest. Amendments are needed to the legislation, and the Treasurer should look at k very seriously before tomorrow. I understand that there are people within the Treasurer's department who believe that amendments, if only minor Ones, are needed to protect not only the public but also the operator or the lessee, as the case may be. This legislation should be interpreted in accordance with the spirk of k. The spirit should be to give Queenslanders what they deserve—^the benefits of a casmo without the dangers that are associated with the establishment of a casinp anywhere else in the world. The Queensland casino wiU be the largest in Australia, It wiU have a massive turnover, which within a very short time wiU be the largest of any casino in Australia. The legislation deals with the problems associated with that casino. The chairman of the New Jersey commission said that with a turnover of half a miUion doUars a day it is particularly im^rtant to the casino operator and the lessee that the workers show up, the food and Uquor arrive and the air-condkioning works. In his words, we see what the spirit of the legislation should be. Opposkion members want the legislation to work just as much as the Goverament does, so I wish that the Goverament would give'more thought to it and put more work and co-operation into it. I thank the Treasurer for giving me accessibility to his staff. They were very helpful to me during my term as shadow Treasurer and again today when I spoke to them before putting forward some of these proposals. The Treasurer should take notice of my comments and should give serious thought to moving amendments to at least three clauses of the BiU, Mr BORBIDGE (Surfers Paradise) (10,36 pm.): It was interesting to hear the comments of the honourable member for Woodridge, who quke modestly has declared himself to be a world expert on casinos, above the Treasury Department, the police and Interpol, I commend the Tresasurer for the introduction of a very difficult and chaUenging piece of legislation. Most honourable members regatrd the BiU as being one of the most important pieces of legislation to come liefore the House in the life of this ParUament. That is particularly so in my case, because as the member for Surfers Paradise I represent the electorate in which the larger of the two casino resort projects wiU be buih. The introduction of casinos into Queensland has ithe capacity to herald a new era in the commercial and tourism development., of this State. It also has the capacity to bring abput significant social and community problems if we as members of Parliament, as menabers of the Government and as administrators and legislators aUow that to occur. The fact remains that in the Australian' context casinos have brought enormous financial benefits to the cities and States in which they have been located. They have brought a significant number of new jobs and have acted as a catalyst in boosting general prosperity and business confidence. The problems of a social and criminal nature in casino developments in AustraUa have been negUgible, I particularly mention the Tasmanian experience. As the honourable member for Woodridge said, in Tasmania Australia's first casino, at Wrest Point, opened in 1972. The newest, at Launceston, opened last year. Both casinos are success stories, both Casino Control BUl 23 November 1982 2645

have confounded their critics, and both are now accepted as an integral part of the tourism infrastmcture of the State of Tasmania. In both those centres the flow-on effect of the casinos has been marked. The (jueensland project is, however, on a much grander scjale. The Jupiter's project ait Broadbeach Island wiU cost more than $160m. It wiU employ hundreds of people, both during constmction and when operating. Most people have not yet comprehended the size and scope of that project, EarUer this year, together with the members for Southport and Redlands, I visited the Launceston Federal Country Qub casino resort. Anyone who visits it must be impressed by its concept, quaUty and style. It was brought to fruition with the expenditure of approximately S23m, Again I make the point that shortly work wiU begin on the Jupker's project, which is estimated to cost more than $160m. Before deaUng with the legislation, I would comment that the introduction of casinos into Queensland is a symbol of the determination of this Goverament to maximise the State's tourism potential and what the Boeing report describes as "the greatest untapped potential of any world tourist market". The Boeing report, which was compiled by the Boeing Commercial Airplane Company and the Queensland Tourist and Travel Corporation, states— "A comprehensive resort complexr should offer all the amenities: Sea, sand and sun; swimming, skin-diving, surfing, marUn fishing; golf and tennis; first-class accommodation; exclusivity; gambling and casinos; top entertainment; availabUity of small islands for more seclusion; access to the Great Barrier Reef; The goal would be to achieve interaational recognition and worldwide reputation," It goes

H(Hioural}le members wUl be aware that there are good casinos and bad casinos. Earlier this year I visited a casino operation in Macau and was disgusted at the appalling standards of the operation permitted there. In both the Unked States of America and the United Kingdom there have been examples of criminal infiltration, but here in Australia the casino experience has been a successful one. As a comparison with the: casino in Macau—many honourable members would have visited the Genting Highlands resort in Malaysia. The honourable member for Woodridge was part of the 1980 parliamentary delegation. That is a magnificent comi^ex, and it continues to operate successfully in a country with an increase in both prosperity and Islamic influence. Honourable members may be aware that Genting is about Ii hours by road from Kuala Lumpur, It is perched on a mountain top sOme 6000 feet above sea level. It is virtuaUy a mini-city that has largely been created by the efforts of Tan Sri Lim, whose family company still pirates it and will have, through World Resort, an interest in the Jupiter project, as well as being the northera operator at Breakwater Island, I welcome the assurance 'by the Treasurer of the degree of scrutiny that the casino appUcants have been subjected to, both loeally and abroad. That is crucial and in itself underpins the success or the failure of our local projects. Such scrutiny and, I would suggest, ongoing security checks are vital in guaranteeing continued future success. In his second-reading speech, the Treasurer indicated that the legiidation had been modeUed on New Jersey law, which has been regarded internationally to date as the best, the most effective and the most efficient yet devised. The Treasurer has also stated that the casino control legislation adopts the majority of the recommendations of the committee of inquiry into the legalisation of casinos in New South Wales by Mr Justice Lusher m 1977. , I must express reservations and concern oveir the draconian aspects of the legislation, but at the same time I reluctantly support the dictatorial powers jthat we. as a Parliament wiU be conferring upon the Minister in such areas as the termination of a licence by the Goveraor in Council without appeal. We are legislating to deny the normally accepted, hard-fought-for, hard-won principles of natural justice. Mr Scott interjected!. Mr BORBIDGE: I know that measures of this type are so dear to the hearts of Opposition members, but we are told that we are adopting these measures to keep our casinos clean and to maximise the benefits that wiU flow to both the people and the State, Although it is the type of rhetoric that is more in keeping with other types of government, I accept the Treasurer's argument that there are no second prizes, and we must make sure that the legislation is as tight and as effective as possible, I hope that the debate on the BiU vrill be positive and constractive, because it is a vital piece of legislation. The Treasurer has assured the Parlament that such provisions will not appear in other legislation; but, in accepting those provisions, I must sound a note of warning. The C^ino Control BiU ensures that the only effective way casinos can be infiltrated by crime on a large scale is through an incompetent or cormpt Minister, Although that is unlikely, theoretically it can occur. In such circumstances, accountabUity Io the Parliament may not be enough or may come too late. In the final analysis k is the best approach. Finally, it places responsibUity on all members of the Parliament, My other concera relates to the casino control division, I express the hope that we wUl not allow what has the makings of an effective and professional monitoring unit to be turaed into a bureaucratic monster, I do not believe that to be sO, but k is a problem that must be watched. I pay tribute to the professionaUsm and expertise of Federal Hotels, which withdrew from the Jennings consortium following the Goverament's decision that it would not be the operator of the Gold Coast casino. It is a fine Australian company and an apert and pioneer in its field. However, it has no divine right to monopplise the Australian casino industry. In toy opinion, the Government has acted in the best interests of competition and of Queensland in approving other operators for our two casinos. I express concern over the wording of clause 52 which relates to the estabUshmMit of a community benefit fund. I hope to raise that concern at the Committee stage. In due course I will seek certain assurances from the Treasurer in relation to that matter. Casino Control BUl 23 November 1982 2647

I am concerned that the legislation omks the word "local" and, although I warmly endorse the concept for such a fund and although I endorse its method of operation,. I beUeve that the people of the Gold Coast and TownsviUe warrant an unequivocal guarantee that the money to be coUected, some 1 per cent of gross casino revenue, wiU be kept in what can loosely be regarded as the local community. That surely is a fair and legitimate request to the Treasurer. Since the early stages of proposals for casmos in Queensland certain comments have been made that a portion of proceeds wiU be kept in the general locality of the casino developments. I understand that that was referred to in the conditions of appUcation and I ask the Treasurer, in his reply, to give that assurance. The proposed developments of both Jupiter's Hotel Pty Ltd and Breakwater Island Resort Pty Ltd are magnificent concepts and it is the Parliament's responsibUity to ensure that casinos in Queensland work effectively, cleanly and for the betterment of the State. The ParUament has to endorse the control devices that have the capability of ensuring successful and clean operations and, by and large, the success of those casino controls depends on people watching people. I welcome the provision for the monitoring of outside contracts. In the United States there has been at least one recent case where a sound casino operator of good repute was infiltrated by a crime syndicate that had control of another company that was under contract to that casino for the supply of certain goods and services. Under the legislation before the Parliament tonight that should not happen. There wiU be a need for particularly close Uaison between the poUce and the casino control division and for speciaUsed poUce training, I expect that in time additional police will be located at the Gold Coast and Townsville and aUocated to casino duties. The poUce strength on the Gold Coast is already stretched and any circumstance in which poUce are taken away from normal local duties is not acceptable, I tmst that fuU account of the speciaUsed police requirements in relation to casinos wiU be taken into account in due course. Earlier the Treasurer referred to comments made by Mr Justice Lusher that a casino licence is a concession from the State and not a right. That principle has been enshrined m the legislation. The legislation paves the way for projects that will boost employment, boost investment and boost job creation potential in a way that is unprecedented in the history pf the Gold C^oast and Townsville, It wiU brmg about associated benefits, I again urge the domestic airlmes to immediately implement a feasibUity study into Imking Queensland's two casino cities, TownsvUle and the Gold (:oast. by a new direct air service, because that is the sort of addkional infrastmctiire that win be required to maxunise the benefits that can flow on to the people using the tacihties at the casmos as weU as the local residents, I support the legislation and I acknowledge the immense responsibility that the treasurer has undertaken in the preparation of the BiU, I express some reservations about certam provisions. The ParUament cannot afford to make any mistakes wkh this legislation as the cost of legislative failure is too great.

„f *J*^r?*°°^^^ (Archerfield) (10.54 p,m,): The Bill once again displays the hypocrisy or tne Government, It is simply another Iwasaki-type BiU, It is bemg pushed through the House in the dead of night and wiU not be implemented for years to come, Dr Edwards interjected, Mr HOOPER: I ask the Treasurer to look at the time k is being debated—after 10 p.m.. When aU the media representatives have gone. The Treasurer has done it deliberately' An important Bill like this should be debated much eariier in the day. It is typical of the sneaky and steaUhy attkude of the Bjelke-Petersen Government, and it certainly does the ireasurer very littie credk. Perhaps some of the deviousness of the Premier has mbbed on on nim. Mr Eaton: And after the hotels have closed, too, ^f HOOPER: I know that the Honourable the Treasurer is a non-drinker, so I do flw r'*,.*'*** that would worry him, I do not know about his being a gambler; I am 1010 that he takes a punt on occasions. This legislation should have been placed before the Pariiament before applications harw^**^-! ^"" interested parties. At least that way the suspicion that this lepslation as oeen tailor-made for particular applicants would have been removed, Mr Borbidge: You would have had a field day, wouldn't you? 2648 23 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

Mr HOOPER: Of course I would have had a field day. I would not have made a sycophantic, toadying speech such as that just made by the honourable member for Surfers Paradise, After listening to him; it is obvious that he is just a toady for the casino interests on the Gold Coast, and a bagman, Mr BORBIDGE: I rise to a point of order, I find the remark made by the honourable member for Archerfield offensive. It is completely untrue, and I ask that k be withdrawn. Mr HOOPER: I do not know about it being lintriie, but the forins of this House dictate that I have to withdraw, and I withdraw accordingly, Mr D'Arcy: He is worried about his seat. ^ Mr HOOPER: I think there might be an exchange of preferences next time, and k is quite obvious that the honourable member for Surfers Paradise will be known in parUamentary terms as a oncer. Tonight we have seen the Treasurer portraying himself as a paragon of virtue and telling the House that this legislation, is to be t^c be-all and end-aU to control the infiltration of criminal elements into Queensland casinos. Once again, by his remarks the Treasurer has shown that this Government is disdainful and , contemptuous of the people of Queensland. It is quite.obvioiis that when the 1983 State election is held that David Hammell, the Rhodes scholar standing as the Labor candidate in Ipswich, wiU be successful. Government Members interjected. ' ' * Mr HOOPER: If ever one wants to see a nervous man in this House, it is the Treasurer when the name of David Hammell is mentioned. Mr BORBIDGE: I rise to a point of order. Would it • not be appropriate if the honourable member addressed himself to the Bill? Mr SPEAKER: Order! There, is no point of order. i Mr HOOPER: The Liberals in this House have always tried to portray the myth that while their National Party colleagues were the bushrangers of the coalition, th^ were the people of integrity and sweet reason. What utter rubbish and hypocrisy. The Liberals have more polish and cunning and usually leave their country cousins to carry the can. Government Members interjected. Mr HOOPER: It is true. I notice that none of the Liberals are objecting; they know it is tme. On numerous occasions I have outlined to the House that not two kilometres from here iUegal casinos are in operation. I heard my good friend and colleague the honourable member for Woodridge refer to the fact that in this legal casino one will not be able to have a drink and gamble at the table. But I can assure the House that down at the illegal casinos in Wickham Street—the ones that the Mmister for Police says do not exist—it is possible to have a drink and gamble simultaneously. Just to refresh the memories of Government members, I vrill again detaU those casinos. First, there is the one at 142 Wickham Street, There is big money to be won and lost there. The wife of a very prominent jockey lost $6,000 there four weeks ago. There is one in Ann Street, although it combines gambling wkh pleasures of the flesh. Nevertheless, a Ipt pf gambling takes place there. Let us not forget our old friends, the Bellinos, They have the Mafia contacts in this State and wiU certainly permeate the legal casinos virtuaUy as soon as they open for business. Their operations in Cairns are infuU swing. There was recently a raid led by a very prominent senior commissioned officer of the Queensland Police Force on BelUnos casino operations in Cairns. Of course, k was a prearranged raid, and aU that it netted were a handful of patsies. In gaml)1ing terms, a patsy is soniebody who is prepared to take the rap for the owner of a casino. So it was a prearranged raid. I do not know if any money changed hands, but certainly the operation left a lot to be desired. Mr Hewkt: "FaU guy", Mr HOOPER: That is the term I was groping for. Casino Control BUl 23 November 1982 2649

The television current affairs program "State Affair" has even shown the premises protected by steel doors and bouncers. The same program showed gaming equipment l)ehind one of the casinos. The printed media has written of the casinos in great depth. Some journalists have even written articles on how easy it is to get into the illegal casinos and how they operate. Yet Minister after Minister has told us that those places are figments of my imagination. The Government denies their existence and the Queensland PoUce Force certainly cannot locate them. On numerous occasions the media and I have offered to take Miiusters and senior poUce on a guided tour of the illegal casinos in the VaUey, The invitations were always declined. Honourable members can draw their own conclusions as to why that was so. It is obvious that certain high-ranking people are receiving kickbacks from the iUegal casinos. Tonight, the Treasurer and Leader of the Liberal Party has the effrontery and gall to present to us a 61-page BiU with 128 provisions designed to exercise rigid control over the legal casinos. It is doomed to failure as soon as it begins. The mob wUl mn rings round the Treasurer and his inexperienced officers. The Goverament cannot locate and control the illegal casinos. What gives the Treasurer the impression that he wiU be any more successful in controlUng the legal ones? Probably the Treasurer, in his naivety, is working on the principle that because the illegal casinos in the Valley operate in two-storey buUdings and can be easily missed, the two legal casinos vriU be operating in 10 to 15-storey buildings so they cannot he missed and, therefore, control can be exercised. I remind the Treasurer that the illegal casino on the fifth floor of the Focus building at Surfers Paradise, in the electorate of the honourable member for Surfers Paradise, is in a high-rise buildmg but it caimot be located or controUed, So much for that logic! I have not heard the honourable member for Surfers Paradise refer to that casino in this House, Mr Borbidge: They were ready to raid it the last time you raised the matter in the House, You wrecked weeks of poUce work. Mr HOOPER: It is operating again. The poUce cannot be trying very hard. Perhaps the honourable member for Surfers Paradise had a financial interest in the operation. That may be one of the reasons why it has not been raised. The Treasurer went on to make great play on the fact that this legislation is based on the New Jersey legislation. Mr BORBIDGE: I rise to a point of order. I do not wish to interrupt the honourable member, but his last comment was not appropriate. I ask that it be vrithdrawn. Mr HOOPER: With aU deference, Mr Speaker, I do not have to withdraw. I had proceeded further with my speech before the honourable member for Surfers Paradise got back to his seat and took a point of order, I submk respectfuUy that there is no point of order, Mr SPEAKER: I take the honourable member's pomt. . ^f HOOPER: The Treasurer went on to make great play of the fact that this legislation is based on the New Jersey legislation. That legislation leaves a lot to be desired, as the Mafia has already muscled in on the casmos there. Bob Bottom, the author of the book titled "The Godfather in AustraUa,., Organised h""«'^ Australian Connections", and a well-known authority on crime, pointed out on the "Nationwide" program on 24 Febmary this year that while he was advising the New South Wales Government on caskio regulations an offer was made by an international group to set up the regulations, scratinise the applicants and make sure that organised Mime did not get into the casmos. Those people subsequently got the contract for the casino in Atlantic City. After a year, all authorkies m that State had to admit that, despite all their precautions, the casmo had been penetrated by organised crime. Bah^''^ Treasurer referred also to the Bahamas. Mr Bottom pomted out that in the anamas knights of the realm were used as frontmen and ran the organisation. have h*^rf^ ^^^ ^ ^° °°* ^*^® *° remmd the House that in the last couple of years we I refer t t^x ^™°^ ***** ^"^^ * knight of the realm is no guarantee of respectabiUty. w 10 the National Party bagman and trustee. Sir Edward Lyons. Need I go further'' 31593—89 2650 23 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

I suggest that the Treasurer should pick up the telephone and speak to Mr Costigan Q.C. If he does so, he wiU find that quite a few noble knights are more than happy to trade the "Sir" before their name for enough folding money to keep them on easy street for the rest of theu: Uves. Mr BJELKE-PETERSEN: I rise to a pomt of order. Did the honourable member say that a knight of the realm was named in the Costigan report? I want to point out that that is completely untme. Mr HOOPER: It is quite obvious that the rarified air of Korea has softened the Premier's brain tissue. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable member will return to the Bill. Mr HOOPER: I wiU, Mr Speaker. The casinos certainly wiU not be for the ordinary people of Queensland. After all its talk about having the interests of the people of Queensland at heart, this Government's actions belie its words. It is quite obvious that the Premier has a paranoia about poker machines. That is the gambling that the ordinary citizen of this State would indulge in. Mr Katter: That is quite right. Mr HOOPER: The Premier's opposition to the introduction of poker machines in this State is on record. It is obvious that the intelligence of the honourable member for Flinders leaves a lot to be desired. As I was saying, the Premier will not have poker machines in Queensland. So the people of Brisbane and the border towns show their contempt for the Premier and his mid-Victorian attitudes by pouring miUions of doUars a year into Mr Wran's coffers by way of the New South Wales poker machines. The patrons of the casinos in Queensland will be the high-rollers—the big spending supporters of the Government parties and contributors to the Bjelke-Petersen Foundation. Mr Frawley: That is wrong. Mr HOOPER: That is not wrong; it is dead set right, and the honourable member for Caboolture knows it. I suggest to the House that within 12 months these casinos wUl become nothing but multimilUon-doUar money laundries for organised crime. There wiU be Jupiter's laundry and Breakwater laundry, Mr Harper: Did you hear the peoples of Queensland show their contempt for the Premier at the Games? Mr HOOPER: Of course they showed their contempt; they laughed, I heard them. I do not want to insult the Premier, It is wrong to use the foram of this House to denigrate another member of this House, particularly the Premier of this State. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Mr HOOPER: I am certainly not going to use the forum of this House to denigrate another member. We all know that a casino licence was a consolation prize to that National Party stalwart. Sir Leslie Thiess, for missing out on the Winchester! South Coal deal. I might add that that was a fiasco that has cost the Minister for Mines and Energy (Mr Ivan Gibbs) any chance he may have had of promotion in Cabinet, As for the laundering of money, it is a very simple operation, as the Treasurer well knows, Mr Innes: What about prostitution in casinos? Mr HOOPER: The honourable member for Sherwood would know a lot about that. I am told that, in order to get some information, the Liberal Party sent the honouraWe member into Bubbles Bathhouse in Wickham Street with a marked $50 note. He came out, but the $50 note never came with him. Casino Control BiU 23 November 1982 2651

If a person, has some money from a drug deal, real estate or other enterprise he does not want the tax man to know about, he just does a deal with the casino operator. He goes along to the casino with, say, $100,000. He purchases $1(X),000 in chips. He does not go near the tables; he goes back and the casino operator cashes in his chips Uterally, He takes a laundry fee, usually about 10 per cent. The smartie can then go away waving a receipt, saying, "Look, aren't I lucky; I won $90,000 at the casino." Everyone is happy. That is the type of operation that every country in the world has tried to stamp out. Even Communist countries, such as Yugoslavia, have tried but failed. Why should this State and Government be any different? I make the prediction that wkhin 12 months : Mr Borbidge: What about the casinos in Tasmania?

Mr HOOPER: I have always been suspicious about the way in which the casinos have been conducted in Tasmania, An Honourable Member interjected, Mr HOOPER: I make it clear that I do not care which Government is in power in Tasmania, Wfthin 12 months of the casinos opening in Queensland, they wiU be permeated by organised crime,

Dr SCOTT-YOUNG (Townsville) (11,10 p,m,): Because the city that I represent, TownsviUe, is one of the recipients of a casino licence, I am very pleased to speak to the BiU. The Federal member representing the area and I were so keen to see a casino established in TownsviUe that we made a caU through "The Townsville Daily Bulletin" for signatures on a petition in support of a casino. I believe that approximately 6 OOO people wrote to the various authorities requesting that TownsvUle be the site selected for a casino, A Government Member: Who won the prize? Dr SCOTT-YOUNG: Only two prizes were given. One went to Broadbeach, the other went to TownsviUe, Approximately 28 appUcations for a casino licence were received. One of the main reasons for granting one of the licences to TpwnsviUe was that the city has an international airport that is operating very successfully. It has connections to Asia as weU as to Europe. The population of Townsville is approximately 1(X)000 and that of the. surrounding districts verges on 300000, So Townsville has a large population on which to caU for the support of a casino. In addkion. North Queensland possesses the Great Barrier Reef, which is easily accessible by boat, and various other beauty spots along the coast, TownsvUle has an artificial harbour which, according to the plans drawn up for the casino, will be converted into a boat harbour to accompany the multi-storey hotel/casino complex. Altogether the design submitied by Drayton Investments Pty Ltd is an exceUent one. It actually suited the area of North Ward in Townsville and wiU add to the whole complexion of the city. One thing I do not understand is the horror that the Townsville City CouncU has for high-rise development. It restricted such development to one end of The Strand, The council adopted a short-sighted view, because high-rise development has come to stay throughout the world. No matter what the TownsviUe City Council thinks about high-rise development, it wiU become part and parcel of Townsville's development, BuUding sites in the city are becoming extremely scarce, and Lion Rock, or Castle HiU, as it is called, completely blocks off the growing western suburbs from sea breezes. Therefore, North Ward should automatically become the residential area of TownsvUle, Why did the City of TownsvUle decide to ask for a casino? One of the reasons was that a casino would encourage the growth of tourism by increasing the range of activity in the area. Tourism is probably one of our most rapidly growing industries and vast assets are associated with k. North Queensland has the Great Barrier Reef, the TownsviUe hinterland and the Atherton Tableland, aU of which offer aquatic activkies or farming, sight-seeing, old •nining towns and so on. 2652 23 November 1982 Casino Control BUl

Another reason for wanting a casino in Townsville is that additional accommodation and convention halls wiU be built in conjunction with the casino/hotel complex. They wUl complement such facilkies already m existence. People could be gathered from all over the world to attend meetings in TownsviUe. The city has a university and a coUege of advanced education, at both of which some very interesting research work is carried out into cyclones and tropical veterinary diseases. The university would attract a considerable number of scientffic conventions and meetings. Another reason for sking a casino m Townsville is that it offers employment opportunities, firstly, in the construction of the building. Whenever a large construction project is tiegun numerous tradesmen move into the surrounding area. That happened with the construction of the TownsvUle Hospital in the 1950s, Many tradesmen came to TownsviUe and remained there. They reared their famUies and became part of the community. The same thing will happen with the construction of the Breakwater hotel/casino complex. Tradesmen will come to TownsviUe, secondary industries wiU be established, and the population wUl benefit from that development after the constmction is finished. Several small businesses were established in TownsviUe when the hospital and the Army barracks were being buUt, They have remained in TownsviUe and are extremely successful and financiaUy stable. The estabUshment of the casino in TownsvUle wUl also stunulate employment in service industries, such as food preparation. One matter that was discussed earlier tonight—^ratheir facetiously, I thought—by one member is the benefit that the local cpmmunity wiU derive from the 1 per cent tax on the gross revenue of the cadno. That is a very important aspect of the legislation. The money from that 1 per cent tax wiU be qsed to provide local welfare services. Many of the do-gooders will not be able to say that casinos are evil and breed crime. Welfare services wUl l)enefit from the operations of the casino. People who attend casinos usually are not working men. They are businessmen with money in their pockets and usually they are in the higher-income brackets. The casino will not damage the ordinary working man. It wiU take much more from the rich than it wUl from the ordinary working man. The idea of keeping the casino purely for table games and card games is sound. We do not want poker machines on which nobody can win. Some experts have estunated that a poker machine is worth $10,000 to the club in which it is situated. That means that no-one can possibly win on a poker machine, t am pleased to see that the legislation is designed to keep poker machines out of casinos. There are one or two aspects of the BUl about which I am unhappy. The first is the draconian provision that gives no right of appeal. That is contrary to our ideas of justice, but I think that it ought to be included in the legislation. It has operated successfully in New Jersey and has provided the means for keeping dishonest people out of the casino business, ^ When I visited Las Vegas, I noticed that money was being laundered quite openly. A man, accomanied by two beautiful women, came into the casino, placed a stack of chips on the table and proceeded to play a game of 21, He was playing wkh $1,000 chips. After playing for about half an hour and finishing about even, he picked up his chips, walked across to the cashier and received a certified cheque from the casino I inquired from a person whom I knew there what that man did. He said. "Oh, he is a local brothel- keeper." He was actually laundering money. He received chips for the money that he had obtained at the brothel and then cashed in the chips and received a certified cheque. That shows how easy it is to launder money. The Treasurer should be very careful to ensure that operations of that type cannot take place in Queensland. Certain parts of the BiU indicate that it could happen. Paragraph (n) on page 38 provides— "procedures for the payment and recording of winnings associated with any games where such winnings are paid 1^ cash or cheque" Another clause provides that the casino operator, if requested by the patron, may at his discretion issue for the whole or any part of the amount to be paid in cash m Ueu of cash a cheque made payable to the patrcm and drawn on a bank account approved of by the Minister, Casino Control BUl 23 November 1982 2653

Obriously, k wUl be a standard procedure to issue a cheque in Ueu of cash winnings. That has to be looked at. We already have in this country a considerable number of people who are endeavouring to take down the Taxation Commissioner with bottom of the harbour schemes. They are not the only ones, I even had my own noble medical profession working large rackets on pensions and extracting large sums of money from' pepple. We have people engaged in UUcit gambling, SP bookmaking is stiU a prolific business, despite the introduction of the recent legislation. There will always be someone endeavouring to bring untaxed money into the untaxable bracket. The Minister has to look carefuUy at paying any vrinnings by cheque, I would like to discuss one other provision in the Bill, but that can wait until the Committee stage. On the whole, the BiU is sound. It has that draconian aspect, but it is sound because it is dealing with something that is fraught with the possibUity of criminal invasion. The Bill wiU go a long way to protect the community as a whole, I agree whole­ heartedly with its basic principles, Mr SMITH (TownsviUe West) (11,22 p,m,): The BiU very clearly is a complex one and probably difficult for most members to grasp, I therefore believe that it is of particular credit to the member for Woodridge that he has demonstrated his complete understanding of the legislation before us. He brought to my attention tonight the power of the operators, RefereiKe was made to the concept of a State within a State, That is certainly frightening. He made remarks foreshadowing that the operation in TownsviUe would not be lUcely to bring about the same sort of problems as might be experienced on the Gold Coast. For the sake of our community, I hope that that is correct. The other point that causes me concern is particularly pertinent in view of comments in today's "Cburier-Mail" by the gentleman conducting an investigation in Victoria, I refer to the suggestion that money for the operation should come from local sources. We know that the TownsvUle casino vriU be operated by World Resorts Pty Ltd, Clearly, that is out Of Australia and it seems to be contrary to the advice being handed out by a very experienced man. The member for TownsvUle, who preceded me, mentioned the desirabUity of high-rise in TownsriUe, One of the suggestions was that the casino would not be a high-rise buUding. It was generaly considered that that would not be appropriate for the foreshore area of TownsriUe, When one compares the population density of Townsville with that of the Gold Coast, one hopes that high-rise development does not occur in the TownsvUle area for many years. The one high-rise building we have has been there for a number of years. It is qilite objectionable to most people who live in that area. Therefore, I cannot support the remarks of my cOUeague from TownsviUe on that matter, Mr Hewitt: How high is Travelodge on The Strand? Mr SMITH: Sixteen storeys. It is not the place for it. Social attitudes are moving towards a greater recognition of the rights of others. All those who Uved behind high-rise buUdings on the beach froht at the Gold Coast were squeezed out. The same thing could happen in Tovrasville, Obviously the Government has to accept that the community is comprised of people with vastly different desires and needs in life and, in a mature society, to say that people have to be protected against themselves is probably an invasion of privacy and another way of saying that a given, particular view should prevail. Casino gambling is merely another form of gambling that is generally accepted within the community. Those who prefer casino-type gambUng should have the opportunity to indulge in it at their Option without fear or stigma of engaging in illegal activity, which IS certainly occurring in Brisbane and I do not doubt is occurring in TownsviUe and Cairns, Mr Jennings: Not on the Gold Coast, Mr SMITH: I wiU have to take the honourable member's word for that but, frankly, f would not know. However, I am certainly aware that a few years ago when I was jn Caims quite a few offers were floating around, A person would have to "c a little naive to think that k is not fairly widespread throughout the State, As a matter of fact, on the last occasion I went to the airport the taxi driver pointed out the various places that my colleague the member for Archerfield identified tonight. So they are certainly no military secret. 2654 23 November 1982 (casino Control Bill

Another point is that npwhere is gambling on the decline. Some say it should be accepted as a business, provided it is subject to appropriate Government control, I am not quite certain, I am not very keen on gambling, but if it is to be in the community then certainly it must be closely controlled. Given proper control, and supervision, I suppose it can function in that sort of environment, I had hoped the environment in Queensland would be similar to the environment in Tasmania, but tonight the member for Woodridge (Mr D'Arcy) placed grave doubts in my mind, I hope the Goverament will listen to his advice and consider some of the points that he raised as they have caused me serious concern. Statements have been made about interstate casino operations. I have a Press clipping from approximately 12 months ago that discusses the economic effects on Tasmania. Something like $16m had been spent on casino taxes arid licence fees, more than S46m had been paid out in wages and salaries, $24m on goods and services and—this is the figure that I find quite remarkable—$850m spent by casino guests. So once money of that order is being discussed, very powerful forces come into play. The member for Surfers Paradise said that legalised casino gambUng would certainly encourage and foster tourism not only for gambUng but also for tourism generally, and I accept that point. If I did not, I would certainly be opposed to a casino in TownsvUle. It will provide opportunities for employment in many fields not only for the people actually engaged in casinos but also for other people in the entertainment area, otlier establishments that wiU obviously spring up around the city and. Of course, the catering and liquor industries. In the initial stages a casirio wiU mean a buUding boom to both Townsville and the Gold Cbast. Prior to the final announcement of where casino licences would be awarded, there was quite a boom, which has now dropped off. It seems to me that Townsville is going through a period of waiting, and I will come back to that in a few moments. Country towns tend not to be very Uvely at night, and 1 guess that a casino will provide a new centre of entertainment. That certainly would not be necessary on the Gold Coast, but it will do a lot for TownsviUe, I suppose that from aU those points of view, one must welcome the casino. When I referred to tourist initiatives, I said that Townsville needs something like the casino to build up business to warrant the Commonwealth Governnient's capital investment in the international airport. Although aircraft loadings have been quite encouraging for an operation that is just beginning, I doubt whether they would justify the capital expenditure. Obviously a lot more overseas people will need to be encouraged to visit Townsville, Of course, the convention potentisd must be attractive. It may well be that if the casino can act as a magnet to induce people to stage conventions in the North, particularly in the winter months, it might well be the greatest benefit to the area. Because I admk that I am not sure of it, I ask the Treasurer, in his summing-up, to explain very clearly whether this legislation is sufficient to allow contracts to be signed. The reason I ask that question is that all sorts of people want to commence projects in the TownsviUe area but they seem to be holding back untU they see some clear activity on the construction side. It is only natural that they will be somewhat reluctant to be first cab off the rank, as it were. The Treasurer told me a few weeks ago in answer to a question that the finance is in place, but I am plagued by persistent rumours that even after this legislation is passed some other factor will restrict the commencement of operations in Townsville, Mr Scott: It is a Government that is noted for procastination in many ways, Mr SMITH: I agree with that, but I am asking the Treasurer for a straight answer because the future of a lot of people hinges on the timing of the building operation. We were told that the reclamation was to commence in November, but November is nearly gone and there is certainly no sign that reclamation is about to commence in the area. I honestly do not wish to misquote Mr Brian WUliams, but he is giving the impression that the delay in the legislation was one of the impediments to getting under way, I do not really know, but that impression has been given. One of my other concerns with respect to the building operation is that, as I understand it, a pubUc beach area in Townsville will be lost in the reclamation process. Most of the citizens of Townsville are unaware that that section of beach wHl be lost. It has certainly not been very well publicised, Mr Lee: How much? Casino Control BiU 23 November 1982 2655

Mr SMITH: Quite a few hundred yards, I am surprised, because I would have thought that interfering Wkh a beach might have been avoided in such a project. Another issue that is purely local is that the TownsviUe Yacht Club has been in financial difficuUies for some time and the suggestion has been made that when the building operation starts the club's premises wiU be taken over as a ske office. If that occurs, I hope that some compensation wiU be paid to the yacht club, even though technically it no longer owns the premises. It does seem that its fate was somewhat accelerated by the need to provide convenient premises for the building operations, I do not really have a lot more to say on this subject. However, I raise a couple of points which I know are of concern to the councU, I understand that the Goverament intends tp establish a community benefit levy. The trustees of the fund created by th^ levy wiU be appointed under a trust deed, wkh the approval of the Governor in CouncU, I understood that the original intention was that the trustees would represent the Goverament, the casino operator and the local authority. That was referred to by the honourable member for Surfers Paradise, Subsequently, it was said that the Minister proposed to include community group representation in lieu of local government representa­ tion, I have not heard the Minister say anything about that, but concern has been expressed. The Townsville City Council is concerned about not being represented on the proposed trust. If the community representatives are to be selected by the Minister, k wUl cause grave concern because such matters have repercussions, especiaUy. in the light of the recent manipulation of the Queensland Recreation Council, The appointments to that councU provide good reason for doubting the effectiveness of that type of representation. The Townsville Welfare CouncU is keen to see members of the welfare community considered as community representatives. I endorse that view because the opening of the casmos could have a dramatic effect on the traditional, less-sophisticated fund-raising actirities of sporting organisations, such as bmgo and chook raffles. The sporting organisa­ tions might take a hammering under the onslaught of a casino. Presumably they wiU not attract the same number of customers. I understand, however, that sporting clubs m Darwin were affected so badly that, to compete wkh the casino, they sought approval to install poker machines. The request was refused but, apparently, the Northern Territory Govern­ ment agreed to subsidise some of the clubs to keep them solvent. I do not know whether the casmos intend to demand the right to install poker machines, but some people believe that they vriU. Without doubt the decision wiU depend on the economic buoyancy of the State at the time. In the present slump condkions, wkh the casinos spending such large sums of money, obviously they could apply pressure for the introduction of poker machmes, Dr Edwards: Poker machines wUl not be introduced, Mr SMITH: That is fair enough. If poker machines were instaUed in the casmos and the sporting clubs were not aUowed to have them, they would be left out on a Umb. Dr Edwards: They wiU not be going into the casinos, Mr SMITH: I am pleased to have that assurance, I hope that the Treasurer sticks to it. As I haye pointed out, local government is probably best constituted to represent the community view on casinos. On Thursday, 9 September, welfare agencies in TownsvUle sponsored a forum on the social unplications of the casino. Papers were presented and, in foUowing discussions, concern was expressed about the lack of a social impact study accompanying such a large^cale development in Queensland, The Breakwater Island resort complex was seen as a large development in North Queensland. It was noted that the Police Commissioner of Tasmania, in commenting on the wrest Point Casino in Hobart on 19 August 1981, said that "no substantial evidence of lous social, moral or economic consequences of gambling was forthcoming in cases ^^^^x^?"" "^ ^^^ * factor in family breakdown, it was usually one among several contributing factors." Mr Hartwig: The crime rate in Victoria and Tasmania dropped off with the casinos. Mr SMITH: I am hoping that that will be the case. 2656 23 November 1982 Casino Control BiU

It was also noted that Dr Cunningham Dax, the then chairman of the Mental Heakh Services Commission of Tasmania, who was monitoring all reports related to casino gambling in Hobart, said in 1978 that he could not complete his report on social implications because of the difficulty in obtaining relevant information to reach meaningful conclusions. That is one thing that concerns me more than anything else. He said that the full sociological effects of the Hobart casino are almost impossible to measure because of the absence of a sociological baseline to measure statistical comparisons. I am hopeful that the Townsville casino wiU result in a totaUy beneficial situation. I hope that there will be no negative elements. However, some pf tlie points that have been raised demonstrate a need for caution. It should be realised that as weU as the people who will be employed in the constmction and conduct of the casino, there may be a need for adjustments to other Government services within a city the size of Townsville to fully take account of the social and economic implications of the introduction of such an establishment, Mr JENNINGS (Southport) (11.42 p.m,): The Bill is a fascinating one. I do not know of any project that has been introduced into any ParUament that has created so much interest and unusual activity, I dO not think that any Bill has created so much news space for the Press as the Casino Control Bill, The Press has had a ball with ramours. If there were no rumours, the Press certainly made some. If ever there was a project where news has been made out of no news, it has been with the proposed casinos. Comments have been made inside and outside the Parliament that the granting of a casino licence is a licence to print money and that it is the granting of a privUege, I suppose in one sense that is correct, Ori the other hand, it must be borne in mind that the Government has stated basic terms and conditions upon which the licence would be granted. When people say that it is a privilege and a licence to print money, they ignore the vast amount of funds that must be invested, the risks taken by the investors and the benefits to the community, as obviously the Government would not have entered into this particular project if it had not seen enormous benefits for the Government in many different areas. As the member for Surfers Paradise has said, it wUl have a major impact on tourism and conventions. As the member for Surfers Paradise also said, there are no major convention facilities on the Gold Coast, This mil he the first major convention faciUty, Approximately 600 bedrooms wUl be provided. When there is a major convention, another 1 500 bedrooms wiU be required on the Gold Coast, That is a most important point because of some of the references that have ' been made. The member for Cook has misinterpreted the situation. It is important that we appreciate that this is the reason for this legislation. The legislation is so sensitive and ttie powers of the Minister are so great that it could be that a licence could be suspended overnight and ruin something into which so much work has gone, I will refer to that in a moment. The member for Woodridge said that the Labor Party agrees that absolute power should be granted. It is surprising to see the member for Woodridge—I do not regard this as any discredit to him, it is probably a credit to him—leading the debate for the Labor Party on this particular project. He is no longer the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, but he is carrying the burden for the Labor Party, He said that the Labor Party agrees with absolute power, I will have more to say about that in a moment. The honourable member for Archerfield referred to Mr Bob Bottoms. On a number of occasions he has come out in support of the legalisation of casinos. I think he made the statement that when the Premier of New South Wales was elected to office there were 16 casinos in New South Wales, that one of the planks in Mr Wran's platform was that he would stamp out Ulegal casinos, and that since his election New South Wales now has 26 illegal casinos. Opposition members also mentioned poker machines. Quite obviously, they do not reaUse what has happened with poker machines in New South Wales. Of the 1500 clubs in New South Wales, over 500 are in financial difficulty because of poker machines. A few years ago, a poker machine cost approximately $3,000 and lasted for six years. At present, a poker machine costs $6,000 to $7,000 and, because of technology and other things, last only three years. On top of that proprietors of clubs have to contend with iUegal operators who use fine wire, magnetic systems and other rackets. Furthermore, the proprietors cannot prevent management from tickling the peter. The smaU clubs Casino Control BiU 23 November 1982 2657 with from 12 to 20 machines have had to try to maximise profits. Their members know that their clubs have to maximise their profits to pay for the machines, so the members are not playing them. The machines are not giving the desired resuks. The downturn in the playing of poker machines in New South Wales has caused a heavy burden on one-third of the clubs in that State and, because of high interest rates that the clubs have to pay on money borrowed, is imposing an added burden on the clubs. Poker machines are a thing of the past, I always tackle poker-machine operators on their own figures and they show that there is no guarantee that money can be made from poker machines. So much for poker machines; I turn to the assertion of the honourable member for Woodridge that in a casino patrons wiU be able to drink at the tables. It is quite obvious from the provision at line 40 on page 34 of the BiU that they will not be aUowed to drink at the tables. The original advertisement referred to the highest standard of casino facUities and an impeccable operation, the maximum enhancement of the tourist industry, best siting, international-class tourist accommodation and so on. The advertisement also stated that an enhancement of State revenue was important but that that objective was secondary to the other objectives. ' • As the Treasurer stated in his second-reading speech, in March 1981 Cabinet approved in principle the establishment of two casinos, and the identifiable reasons in support of casino gaming were as foUows— to encourage growth of tourism by increasing the range of activities; to incorporate construction of additional first-class hotel accommodation at tourist centres; to improve recreational, entertainment and convention facilities; to provide additional employment opportunities; to stimulate business pursuits; to create extra revenue for the State; and to meet the legitimate wish of those who are attracted to casino-type games. Those are the basic objectives. In his speech the Treasurer said that negotiations of the terms and conditions of the two agreements to be entered into with the prospective licence-holders were nearing completion. In other words, at this time they are not completed. That aspect is important, because the Bill has wide ramifications. No doubt the Treasurer wiU comment on this aspect in his reply, but it is important that the negotiations be finalised as quickly as possible. The Treasurer also said— it was decided that the positive effects emanatmg from the constmction and operation of hotel-casino complexes, which would be predominantly tourist oriented, outweighed the negative effects," The Treasurer went on to say that the complexes were to be large but restricted. In AprU and May 1981 applications were called from persons who might be interested m developing and operating hotel/casino complexes. All the way through the Treasurer's speech he mentioned the benefits associated with casinos. He added that briefs containing comprehensive documents were given to the finalists. The other important point is that exhaustive investigations have been carried out mto the character and background of the directors and other people connected with these companies. The Treasurer emphasised the point—I endorse the emphasis—that the integrity of the people connected with the casino operations is important. He said— "I am satisfied that the company and persons to be involved in the operation wiU undertake the responsibilities placed upon them in a manner that will bring credk to them and to Queensland," 2658 23 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

He also said, and this is very important— "It is abundantly clear that if an impeccable operation is to be sustained, the basis of control must be autocratic in that Governor in Council and ministerial decisions, made in the Ught of fuU information, must be final with no right of appeal to the judicial system or to any other authority," That is one of the most dynamic and far-reaching statements that have ever been made in any ParUament in Australia, I have spoken to the legal members, but they are not speaking on this BiU tonight, Mr Moore: Yes, they are, Mr JENNINGS: That is good, I asked them: "Can you refer me to any other BiU that has been introduced into any other Parliament in Australia where there is no recourse to justice or the law or the right of appeal?" Dr Edwards: Quote what I also said about this not being taken as a precedent at any time,

Mr JENNINGS: That may be so, but that has been said about so many things. That was said about retrospective taxation—and look at what retrospective taxation has done to the Gold Coast, It has destroyed people's confidence, Akhough they invest under the laws of the land today to make a profit, those laws wiU not be the laws tomorrow. That has completely destroyed investment and people's confidence in a propriety Umked company. The whole of our history has been based on risk capkal. Once a precedent has been set, people will use it. I am just emphasising that the Treasurer made that point. He also said— "It is clear to me that unless a casino licence-holder and those associated with the operation are persons of proven integrity, the Government wiU be faced with immense control problems in the future," I shall comment a bit more on that. The legislation does not cover those minor matters, and I hope that the Treasurer, when he replies, wiU refer to that. He also said— "Acts or omissions that may trigger a cancellation or suspension action are necessarily widely cast and inevitably minor misdemeanours will occur. Responsible judgments in these situations will be made," That is fair enough. He continued— "It wUl be noted that all the circumstances of the case relating to a cancellation or suspension action and any information submitted in answer to the show cause notice are to be presented to the Governor in Council along with the ministerial recom­ mendation in respect of the matter. Again the decision of the Governor in Council to cancel or suspend a casino licence is final. The finality of Governor in Council decisions may appear to be excessively arbitrary but this power is absolutely essential if the integrity of casino gaming is to be ensured," That gets back to the control of the controllers. According to the Minister'^ speech, the tax rate wiU be 20 per cent of gross revenue for one casino and 15 per cent for the other casino. The Treasurer also stated^ "This section of the Bill is of critical importance, providing as it does for the Minister to issue directions relating to the management, supervision or control of the casino operations and for the direction to be complied with in all respects. the powers given in the BiU are extraordinarily wide, but to Umit them would be to confine and restrict the pursuit of a fraudulent practice in this most sensitive industry. I make no apologies for the inclusion of such strong powers." That is fair enough. He has made quite clear what his intentions are. I think that we have to look at that matter very closely. The Treasurer also stated— " , , the Queensland legislation would be based on legislation enacted by the State of New Jersey, which is a legislative model that has been acclaimed by experts around the world as being the best casino control legislation yet formulated." Casino Control BiU 23 November 1982 2659

I ask the Treasurer: Is there any provision in the New Jersey legislation whereby an operator has any means of recourse if there is a dispute? That matter should be clarified. Then the Treasurer stated— "It is essential that casino operations or any part of them are not in any way controUed or influenced by criminal or even undesirable persons. This is the fundamental aim of the whole licensing concept. Control devices must be avaUable to deal with any problems and, because of this requirement, this Bill contains many provisions that would not and should not appear in other legislation. I am fuHy aware of the strength of the legislation and, ordinarily, I, personally, would oppose many provisions on the grounds of natural justice. How­ ever, as the problems of casino control are unique, so is this Bill, and without such strength the Government would be foolish to continue with the provision of casino gaming in this State." This paragraph in the Treasurer's speech concerns me somewhat— "As Mr Justice Lusher so rightly stated, many such people have access—" he is talking about people who wish to appeal— "to highly priced legal and financial advice that can be used to obviate the intentions of the law and control devices. A regulatory system that is initially above reproach may be corrupted over time without the application of a constantly vigilant, competent and honest control personnel and management staff." We have a legal system. We do not discard the legal system. If we are to discard the legal system because of this, we are saying that the legal system is no good. That is basically what the Treasurer is saying. That paragraph I have just read sums it up. It says that we do not trust the legal System. Dr Edwards: No. Mr JENNINGS: That is the way it reads. I ask the Treasurer to explain that in detail. It says— "A regulatory system that is initially above reproach may be corrupted over time without the appUcation of a constantly vigilant, competent and honest control personnel and management staff." Basically, that is one Of the reasons for the complete power vested in the Bill. Clause 26 provides for completely detailed investigations into the suitabiUty of casino licensees and evwybody else connected with the casino. All applicants have been checked and double-checked,.'There is no doubt about that. There are many provisions in the BUl relating to show cause—"shall not be appealed against, reviewed, quashed or in any way called into question in any Court or on any count whatsoever" There are a number of references to that type of thing in the BUl. The sanie thing applies to the canceUation of a licence. A decision by the Minister to cancel or suspend a casino licence "is final and conclusive and shall not be appealed against, reviewed, quashed or in any way called in question in any CoUrt on any account whatsoever." I am not casting reflections on anyone in this House. However, I have seen corruption work in Government. With this Bill we are providing power to a Minister that is nowhere else available. It has such wide ramifications. No-one here knows who is going to be Treasurer in five years' time or even in three years' time. No-one knows what sort of person he will be. We have seen what has happened in other States. We do not want similar things to happen here. A person prohibited from entering a casino may appeal to the Minister, whose decision is final and conclusive and shall not be appealed against, reviewed, quashed or in any court in any way held in question. I agree with the penalties contained in the Bill for bribery and all the rest Of it. However, I wish to make a few pther comments about the aspect I am dealing with. It concerns the law and every one of us. It concerns the man iii the Street. It could be that the Minister at some time in the future may think that he is not bound in any way by the laws of the land. The laws we are proposing tonight give him the right to carry out certain sanctions, restrictions, prohibitions and denial of rights without any question, redress or resort to the justice of the normal law. That is what is in the BUl. That is what is contained in the Treasurer's second-reading speech. Normal law is about what IS right and what k wrong. It is what the man in the street understands. Dr Edwards: But you are not dealing with normal people in this situation. 2660 23 & 24 November 1982 C:asino Control M

Mr JENNINGS: If the Treasurer says that the people involved in the casino are not normal people—they have just been checked how many times? They have been checked by Interpol and by other people. To say that those people are not nornud people is a gross discredit to Dr Edwards: The people who come into casinos and try to beat the system are not normal people. It is about time you realised that. Mr JENNINGS: Very well. The Treasurer has qualified that. I accept his qualification on that. However, as far as we are conceraed, the normal people are those who wiU be operating casinos. Normal law is about what is right aiul what is wrong. It is about British justice and what the man in the street understands. It is what the Australian understands about being given a fair go. Without stating the reason or showing any cause, the Minister can cancel a casino licence and destroy a worker's livelihood. The person so affected has no right of redress and no right of appeal. [Wednesday, 24 November 1982]

Dr Edwards: Only if he misbehaves, Mr JENNINGS: But that is in the Minister's opinion only. It is contained in the Bill, Dr Edwards: No, it is when the Minister makes a recommendation to the Governor in Council and he has to show cause and report back to the Governor in Council, Mr JENNINGS: But I am speaking of the individual, I think the Minister has misinterpreted his BUl, The Minister can cancel an individual's licence. He does not have to refer that to the Governor in CouncU, That is not in the BiU at all, Dr Edwards: And nor should it be,

Mr JENNINGS: But the Minister just said k was. It is in the BUl, If the Treasurer wants to argue, he can do so, but it is contained in the BiU that the Minister can cancel the licence pf someone who works in that casino. The Minister does not have to tell anyone or give any reason and the person concerned has no right of appeal. If that sort of legislation is to be introduced into the House I want to let everyone know that that is what the Assembly is approving—the most dictatorial powers that have ever been introduced into any Australian Parliament, The Parliament is giving the Minister extraordinary powers. If, in a few years time, a corrupt Minister is in power he wUl have those powers that are contained in the Biil, There ,is no argument about that, I am speaking about the fear of a dictatorship, the fear of somebody losing his livelihood and the fear of some fine person being forced to become a party to corruption because of fear that if he does not succumb his family wUl be adversely affected. Members of Parliament have the duty to point out what they see as proposed actions or propositions that are wide open to abuse. It is the job of members of Parliament to protect the rights of people, not to give a right to someone in this place to destroy the rights of those who are outside it and who have no right of appeal. That is what the Bill provides. That is not, and never wUl be, British, AustraUan or any other form of justice that we acknowledge. Why does the Bill have to be framed in this way? That does not have to be the case. Justice does not have to he thrown out the window. These powers do not have to be given to one particular person, A dictatorship does not have to be created. If members of Parliament think that those things have to be done, what sorry depths our public servants have descended to. Do we honestly think that a public servant will be some lilly-white who is above reproach and wiU advise the Minister through delegated power? The Bill sets up the Minister as a judge above aU judges, as a law above all laws and as a person above aU other persons in casinos. I would be interested to hear what our legal colleagues have to say about the Bill. Dr Edwards: It wiU be the first time you have taken any notice of them. You usually do not give them much credit for what they say. Casino Control BUl 23 & 24 November 1982 2661

Mr JENNINGS: I realise that the hour is late and the Treasurer may be tired. However, in all the time I have spent in any Parliament I have never criticised any legal man at aU. I have always praised any legal person regardless of the side of the House on which he sits. I think the Treasurer is wrong, I wiU not take exceptkin to his words because he must be feeling tired. The provisions of the Bill should be just and iinpartial. Everybody must be given a fair trial. If the Parliament has to resort to legislation that provides for no right of appeal as is normally provided for by the law, it is a complete condemnation of the legal system and those in it. On the other hand, if there were normal rights of vetting and checking, the Parliament would be showing confidence in the legal system, the system that every day the Parliament states to the people is the basis of the country's democracy. Every day members of Parliament tell the public to abide by the law. Here we are trying to introduce something that wUl give a Minister power to destroy someone without reference to the law. An accused person has no recourse to the law. It is a matter of basic principle, and the lack of any right of appeal to any justice or independent tribunal puts the Minister himself in a vulnerable position. He could be subject to considerable influence, pressure and threats. The other point I wish to make is that there are enormous implications in the canceUation or suspension of any licence connected with the casino. There will be an investment of over $200m in the two casinos. Above aU else, there are enormous implications for the future of Queensland, because this is a project of major importance, I congratulate the Treasurer and aU the men who have worked so hard on the project, but I think that they are a bk too close to the trees. We can stand back. The Treasurer might take exception to what I am saying, but aU of us should try to be constructive. The responsibility would be on all of us if there were corruption in a few years' time. This legislation is a perfect formula for corruption and extortion in a few years' time, and it is important to recognise that. As Lord Acton said, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely," Because it is so important, I might mention that I went through all this in Victoria during the Gowan inquiry. Some of the participants are now in gaol. That one small inquiry uncovered false information, false prices, deliberate deceit, an incorrect valuation system, conspiracy, inside knowledge used for personal gain, criminal conspiracy, corruption and dishonesty, Opposkion Members interjected,

Mr JENNINGS: The Labor Party did nothing about it, ekher, because there was enough money to fix them, too. We do not want that sort of thing here; but this legislation is a recipe for it, and some changes must be made. As the Treasurer knpws, I am 100 per cent in favour of the casino, because, as my colleague from Surfers Paradise said, it wiU be terrific for the Gold Coast. As to the Bill itself—it is important that there be some method of gradation of the seriousness of, offences. Obviously if an 18-year old youth walks into the casino on the first day of operation, the licence could be suspended*. Basically, that is not right, and the Treasurer should consider changing that provisipn. As to the licence—obviously any building of that size, particularly on the Gold Coast, will cost $150m to $200m. Surely the licence could be connected to the building in some way. If a shonky operator is discovered, the Government could appoint an administrator. That should also be cleared up, because the value of the building would be destroyed if the licence were cancelled, and if the value were destroyed because of some irresponsible suspension the public's investment would be destroyed. That point must also be considered. No doubt the Treasurer will answer that in his reply. On ray reading of the Bill, if a receiver is appointed by the Government, the appointment itself is a default. The Treasurer might also clear up that point. My coUeague from Surfers Paradise also raised the point that early in the piece an assurance was given that there would be benefits to the local community, I will not belabour that point. Probably the Treasurer wUl refer to it in his reply. From our point of view, k is significant that the word "local", which was in the original submission, 2662 23 & 24 November 1982 Casmo Control Bill

is not in the Bill, I understood that 1 per cent of the take was to go to local communities. It is important that that should be so, and that the word "local" be included so that the area covered is defined. Another provision is to the effect that the Minister may notify any game that may not be conducted and the maximum number of hours that the casino may operate. In all fairness, the Bill should provide a minimum number of hours. In a few years' time, a Minister may say, "I do not like the casino. I will let it operate two hours a day between 10 a.m. and 12 noon." Some assurance should be given on the hours of operation. I give the Treasurer and the Government full praise for what has been achieved. At the moment, the Treasurer is smiling. I am praising the overall project. I have been 100 per cent genuine in everything that I have said about the integrity of the casino. I view the powers given to the Minister as a recipe for corruption. Complete, unfettered, draconian powers are conferred, with no right of appeal.. There is no recourse to justice under the legislation. Mr SIMPSON (Cooroora) (12.11 a.m.): No legislation is perfect so any legislation may need refinement. I am assured—although I am not convinced—that everything about this legislation is good for Queensland, It will promote increased tourist activity, investment and jobs, all of which are extermely important at this time. Jobs will be created directly in building the casinos and in running them. The Government's coffers wiU benefit from the casino profits. We were previously discussing welfare legislation designed to help people in need. Money for this purpose is available only from taxes levied and profits made. The Casino Commuriity Benefit Fund, which is to be used in a certain undefined area to support community and sporting activities, will be a plus. I am concerned about criminals being attracted to Queensland when the casinos begin operation. No doubt some criminals are already on holiday in Queensland. Only time will tell whether more criminals will be attracted by the casinos. Earlier speakers have referred to the legislation as being draconian and to its creating a cfitch-22 situation. The legislation is drafted to ensure that the controls; wUl be effective, A big stick is being wielded. The Government is virtually saying^ "Although you have sp^nt, mUlions of doUars building a casino, the licence wiU be withdrawn in certain circiumstances," It has beep suggested that only one person has to be bought to prevent a licence being cancelled. On my interpretation of the legislation, that is not so, because Cabinet and the Governor in Council must approve withdrawal of a licence, , The decision cannot be made by one person. Each Cabinet Minister who is listening to iiiy speech wiU be a party to whatever decision is made by the Governor in Council. Each will have a responsibUity to determine the facts before action is taken under this legislation. As I see it, the responsibility wiU not rest with one Minister. The Premier, who was in the House a moment ago—and, no doubt, he is still Ustening to the debate—could be the key man. Officers working in the casino area wiU be rotated in such a way that they do not become such a part of the woodwork that they can be bought. It could well be that the Premier is the key man. He should ensure that the portfolio remains with one Minister for only, say, three-years, or even for a lesser period, so that graft and corruption are not concentrated on one Minister in the Cabinet. Mr Scott interjected, , Mr SIMPSON: I am saying that the temptation would not be there. For the benefit of Opposition members, I point out that I am worried about what would hajipen under this legislation if ever they got into office—which heaven forbid! People in Cabinet could be tempted. If the Premier changed the Minister in that ppsition frequently, there would be less temptation than there would be if one Minister was in charge for a number of years, .• > The suggestion that pin-ball machines or poker machines should be permkted in casinos is objectionable to me, I have resisted that move previously, I have had serious reservations at committee and joint-party levels in relation to the legislation itself. I am prepared to give k a try to see whether it wiU be of benefit to Queensland. TUl now I have wondered whether Queensland really needs casinos. Queensland is the top State, .casino Control BiU 23 & 24 November. 1982 2663

anyway. Casinos wUl only add to the number of people who cannot handle their finances and who end up being supported by the State's welfare services, the money for which is collected from the smarties who fiU our coffers through legal gambling in oisinos, I sui^ort the strict controls contained in the Bill, The member for SoUthpOrt said that there should be some reference to a court Of appeal on what appear to be draconian rights to control a casino Ucence, The highest court is in this Assembly, Under the legislation. Cabinet has a very grave responsibility to act fairly. If the legislation has to come back before this House, honourable members will have a responsibility to correct any defects in it, HMI. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove) (12,19 a.m,): This morning a report in "The Courier-MaU" contained a strong warning against casinos. It pointed out that casinos could become almost a State within a State, They are strong words, but they were used by someone who knew what he was talldng about, A former chairman of the British Gaming Board, Sir Stanley Raymond, giving evidence before a Victorian Board of inquiry into casinos, pointed out that the enormous cash flow generated by casinos could allow gambling operators to exert pressure on legislators, on police and on gambling-control boards. He gave evidence of the sort of money he was talking about. He said that the maximum limit of $12,(XX) on some games was often the amount wagered. He said, "I have seen a million pounds go through a casino from the time I started dinner and finished," He was talking of, and in this debate tonight we must consider, the passing of enormous amounts of money and the uses to which enormous amounts of money can be put. Recently I read another fairly terse warning against gambling caSinos, It was a warning by the secretary of the State Labour Council in New South Wales, Mr Unsworth. He said— "Why don't I like casinos? No, 1, they are a cover for organised crime to launder money, No; 2, they would be the best form of tax avoidance. No, 3, they would lead to the corruption of casino officials and operators." In August, the director of the AustraUan Institute of Criminology, WUUam Clifford, wrote an article in which he doubted that it was possible to control casinos in the long term. Of course, the Wrest Point Casino is a relative new-comer, and it is the oldest one in Australia. So far it looks good. However, in the long term, there is no doubt that in places such as Las Vegas and other parts of the United States organised crime is dominating those places and is flourishing throughout the United States largely because of the economic power that those places give iti This is what WiUiam Clifford had to say— s t "Obviously America has never succeeded in keeping out the mobs,' Organised crime helped to buUd and establish Las Vegas, and from pre-revolution Cuba to the other countries of the Caribbean its tentacles have long been extruded. There are tight controls of course; but few people believe that these can cope with the ingenuity of sophisticated syndicates with the best legal advice. One naturally wants to get rid of the crime and corruption associated with illegal casinos, but investing it aU with a veneer of respectability does not rid society of the negative consequences. It is well known that even the best-run establishments have been infiltrated. They are so useful to organisations with access to strong arm methods to recover debts, raise extra capital or silence witnesses. Apart from the laundering of money illegally obtained elsewhere, which is so frequently mentioned, casinos are an excellent way of paying off corrupt officials; and the good luck at the tables which can be arranged in return for favors can take place in a state or country far removed from the scene of the corrupt action. Equally important is what happens on the side, where subsidiary trades and industries can be immensly profitable and can be taken over surreptitiously by those who know how—without the names of the real owners being traceable." Mr Scott: jYou are a pessimist, Mr GREENWOOD: Perhaps I am; but this man is a man whose job it is to know, just as Sir Stanley Raymond is a man whose job it is to know. What they say should give us Cause to pause. 2664 23 & 24 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

Mr Scott: Were you listening to the Premier? Is that what you were doing? Mr GREENWOOD: What I am saymg is that so far we have not had a proper inquiry and a proper debate on the likelihood of some of these things occurring in Queensland. That is not to say that some inquiries have not been held elsewhere, I should mention at the outset the Lusher report in New South Wales,,' That report recommended— "That casinos for the playing of casino games be introduced into and legalized in the State of New South Wales," It went on to state that a period of six months or thereabouts should elapse from the date of the pubUcation of the report to enable the Parliament of New South Wales to have the benefit of the fullest consideration and public debate upon its contents. That is somethmg that we have not had in this State,. and I wonder whether we should be moving into legislation at this stage without some such inquiry and debate. Mr Scott: How will you be voting? Mr GREENWOOD: I have made no secret how I will be voting on this Bill. I am not saying that the Lusher report was itself an ideal way of going about it. The representatives from the New South Wales CtouncU of Churches made very trenchant criticisms. After putting in a 15 000-word submission and appearing in the initial hearings, they withdrew, and the reason that they withdrew was twofold. In the first place, they made the point that the terms of reference were themselves inadequate. They criticised the report by saying that the only work required from the inquiry was to recommend some way of legalising casinos. They suggested that the inquiry should have investigated whether it was in the best interests of New South Wales to legalise casmos. With respect, that seems to be a fairly just criticism. They also said that the actual procedure was inadequate; that witnesses were not required to give evidence or to be cross-examined. Those, too, are fairly legitirhate criticisms of the procedure of any inquiry. It was not Mr Lusher's fault that he could not have witnesses give evidence on oath or be cross-examined. The procedure avaUable to an inquiry of the sort that was set up was just not there. For those who are interested, I refer to paragraph 754 of his report, which outlines the procedure, and paragraphs 777 and 797, The inquiry was not a royal commission. As it was not a royed commission, and as k did not have the capacity to put witnesses under oath ^n

Hamer, a former Premier of Victoria, told the Connor inquiry on 14 July this year that a turnover tax of 20 per cent on two casmos would earn the Government at least $20m a year. It was commented by Mr Clifford— "One can weU understand the Treasury interest in being able to avoid or postpone the raising of unpopular taxation by tolerated gambling; the real question is whether more than $20m a year wUl have to go out on the controls which will be needed, or on the police overtime to deal with the by-products of legal gambling," So we have to look at the off-seu. It is interesting that Clifford asks us to be wary of assuming that there will in fact be a profit once we balance the off-sets against the revenue collected, and Lusher comes to the conclusion that it should not be justified on that basis, I turn from that to the matter of whether or not we think we can control it; whether or not we think that we can do something that has not been done in the United States, How much reUance should we place on what appears to be the relatively innocuous operation at Wrest Point? The first point that CUfford makes is this— " Wrest Point looks good, as do some of the casmos in the Northern Territory, The real question is what wiU happen in the big population centres. After aU, crime prevention is, and always has been, a question of scale." Secondly, Clifford makes the point of whether we can feel any great confidence from existing experience in other fields, where big-time crime has been combated by the law- enforcement agencies of Australia. He refers briefly to things like the Corporate Affairs Commission and says— , the assurances of adequate public controls over the private ownership of casinos ring particularly hollow when other experiences of legal enforcement are taken into account. How can we be so sure of the casino controls when it has proved so difficult (because of the problems of establishing ownership and control) to implement a far-reaching customs law to divest drug traffickers of their assets? The efforts to control the interstate operations of fraudulent companies by the Corporate Affairs Commissions have proved very difficult. With the Ukelihood of a variety of ingenious schemes for indirect controls, through 'front' companies, via land ownership or by share purchases on the stock exchanges through agents, it is difficult to have confidence in the ability of a bureaucracy to control," Those are cautionary words. They are words which seem to me at least to be fairly sensible. While we are on the matter of our ability to control—of our abiUty to do better than the Americans—let me return for a moment to Sir Stanley R.aymond, Sir Stanley advised any State considering legalising casinos to ensure that all operators remained in the State, He also said that the Gaming Board—that is the British Gaming Board of which he was chairman—^tried to ensure those who owned casinos were in Britain as the Goverament's control over the operation is lost when the casinos are owned by overseas investors. The board had problems with foreign investors relying heavily on a casino in London which was owned by the Playboy organisation, Dr Edwards: But he also admitted to me that his legislation was inadequate to deal with any problem. That was the main problem, not the overseas interests,

Mr GREENWOOD: I thank the Treasurer for making that point. At some stage in the debate I had proposed to pay a tribute to the Treasurer and his officers for the extraordinary measures to which they have gone to ensure that the legislation before the House is the best available. If the State is to have casinos—as the Treasurer knows, I do not think it should—then it should certainly have casinos controlled by legislaticm with the sort of teeth that this legislation has. As a member of the Treasurer's committee I have been privileged to see for how long the committee has tried to put additional teeth into it. But even so, I can only take Sir Stanley's words about the basic problem. The fact that his legislation was not good enough does not affect the basic problem which he confr

He also went on to say that the money generated in a casino could be used to prop up another company venture and that could cause problems about who owned the casino when a pledge was called in. So that, too, is a relevant factor which must be borne in mind when the ParUament considers the State's capacity to exercise control and to exclude the organised crime that the Americans, whose police have aU the technology avaUable to modern science, have so far not been able to exclude. Having said that about what are merely the mechanics of control, let me come to a more fundamental question which also has not yet been adequately debated in this State, that is the fundamental question of the morality of gambling and whether the Parliament can come to the conclusion that it is in the best interests of society to introduce the casino style of gambUng. Recently the CSIRO and the University of Western Australia pubUshed some findings of an inquiry that they had conducted. The result of that inquiry was that comjMilsive gambling is now causing as much social havoc as alcoholism. The report I have is taken from "The Australian" of 27 May 1982, The person who made these statements was Dr Geoffrey Syme of the CSIRO, He estimated tliat up to half a miUion Australians rated as compulsive gamblers. He went on to say— " 'The effects on their famiUes are just as disastrous financially as those of alc(rfioIics, 'The trouble is there has been very Uttle research on the problem gambler although other statistics show increasing numbers are ending up in jaU. 'While there is considerable research on alcohoUsm and ways to deal with k, compulsive gambling is ignored- 'Governments are going out of their way to promote the TAB, horse racing, and the lotteries, completely unaware of the incidence of the probleBi, It's totally irresponsible. 'We need a major national inquiry and we are not being wowsers in suggesting k.'" Dr Syme would be the first to admit that the inquiry that he was talking about was fairly limited. But it dealt with people ranging in age from 21 to 62 years who had each lost an average of $50,000 through gambling. Although it was a fairly small inquiry, k probably justified Dr Syme's basic conclusion that we need a major national inquiry into the problem. That is a conclusion with which I respectfuUy agree. What are some of the other consequential problems of introducing this particular legislation? One of them, it seems to me, is the difficulty of saying to people in other parts of Queensland, "It is right to have a casino on the Gold Coast and it is right to have a casino in Townsville, but it is absolutely morally wrong, and we wUl resist k to the utmost of the State's power, to have a casino in Mt Isa, Cairns or any of the other provincial cities," If casino gambling is right, why should there not be a facility for gambling in other parts of our State? It is difficult to answer that question. I have not been able to find an answer to it that satisfies me. The other point is this: How can we now resist the introduction of poker machines and similar forms of gambling in the golf and bowls clubs? Can we say, "This is wrong. It is dangerous. It takes the 20c pieces from people who cannot afford them,"? Why is k wrong to put temptation in the way of people in the form of 20c poker machines, yet right to put temptation in the way of people in the form of roulette tables and blackjack? I find it difficuh to distinguish, I find it difficult to say, "No, there should not be poker machines in the clubs", if I say in this House that there should be gambling tables in great casinos on the Gold Coast and in TownsviUe, Who would get the profit from poker machines? It would be the golf and bowls clubs and the community groups which would reap the profits. And is that not equally as justifiable as the part of the casino profits flowing to the State Government? To my mind, I have not yet been convinced that it is in the interests of the people of (^eensland and to the social advancement of our community that we carry this legisla­ tion, I have made no secret of my point of view. My parliamentary leader is > allowing me a conscience vote on the matter, and I, for one, will exercise that vote against this legislation. Casino Control BiU 23 & 24 November 1982 2667

Mr HARTWIG (Callide) (12.45 a.m.): The Bill establishes the authority for the Government to negotiate and enter into an agreement for the construction and operation of hotel/casino complexes. In this debate much has been said by many members who have never placed a bet in their lives. The honourable member for Ashgrove spoke at length about the morality of gambling and said that casinos could encourage compulsive gambling. Over the years I have called constantly for a review of gambling in Queensland. We already have a very enterprising and thriving racing industry throughout the State. It attracts thousands of dollars from Melbourne, Sydney, New Zealand and other places during the winter months. The Government is spending millions of dollars to establish trotting in Queensland and coursing events are held in many places. We have soccer pools. Gold Lotto, the Golden Casket, meat tray raffles, lucky numbers and bingo. The other day a nine-year-old child, who has no chance of entering a casino, won a thousand dollars in a game of bingo. No-one can tell me that that child will not be addicted to gambling for the rest of his life. And the Government legaUsed bingo! Mr Scott: Are you backing the National Party?

Mr HARTWIG: I am dealing with the introduction of casinos. I listened at length to the legal opinion about what could happen in a casino. I have played casinos in Las Vagas, Hobart, Launceston and elsewhere. I am amazed when I hear people talking about the immorality of gambling in casinos. If a man wants to gamble, he will do so. Recently another man and I went intb a Country hotel and spent $4.60 on a few beers, but we spent $28 on meat trays and raffles. We went into that hotel to have a drink. Under the present rules, gambUng is going to the public; the public is not going to gambling. In order to enter a casino, a person must be well dressed, of age and pass the guard at the door. Even when he produces his money a man from the Treasury Department may ask him a few questions before he can play. I have seen that happen. Federaf Hotels has proved that it can run a casino. I am amazed that people should have been sent round the world to investigate casinos when the Tasmanian Government runs two casinos, and Federal Hotels runs the casinos at Darwin and Alice Springs. I have heard a good deal about corruption in casinos. Tremendous cormption and doping occur in horse-racing. Does the honourable member for Ashgrove or any other member suggest that we should abolish the TAB because of the corruption in horse-racing? Now and again a jockey is suspended for 12 months for doing something wrong. On other occasions an owner is disquaUfied because his horse returns a positive swab,. Is anybody here game to suggest that we should abolish racing? I agree with the member for Ashgrove that there is a danger of something crooked happening in casinos. ,. 1 have in my possession a report from the Wrest Point Casino covering the. six years of operation from February 1973, wheii it ppeiied, until February 1979. Her Majesty saw fit to enter that casino when she visited Hobart, It has been one of the greatest things to happen to Tasmania, The Tasmanian Government saw fit to- allow another casino to be constmcted at Launceston, I am sure that many honourable members have visited the Wrest Point Casino. It would rank wkh the best in the world. In the first six years of operation, that casino returned to the Tasmanian Government $11,304,000 by way of'casino tax and Ucence fees. That is an average of almost $2m a year. The wages and salaries paid to employees, 7U-odd per cent of whom live in Hobart, amounted to $28,797,000. The estimate of goods and services purchased in Tasmania—^the quantity of meat consumed is tremendous^- amounled to $15,404,000. The number of residential guests for the first six years was 667,525. It is estimated that each guest would spend $100 in Tasmania away from the casino. Multiplying $100 by 667000. it means that $66.7m has been interjected into the economy of the Apple Isle. The estimated total number of visitors to the Wrest Point Casino was 6 million. The amount spent by the Wrest Point Casino on advertising was $2.4m. In addition, the casmo is making extensions costing $50m to cater for huge conventions that will be held there. 2668 23 & 24 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

The entertainment provided is world class. We do not get entertainment of that type in Queensland, One can see top performers from America and other parts of the worid at the shows at the Wrest Point Casino, It is possible to take a family to the Launceston hotel casino, be there a week and never enter the casino, I wUl teU honourable members what is wrong with the Government's proposal. First, Queensland is about 20 times the size of Tasmania, It has a population of 2.25 miUion compared wkh Tasmania's 480000. Applications were called for two casinos, one of which is to be in Townsville. Every week over $lm is being taken across the border and put into poker machines by bus loads of people who have traveUed from Brisbane to clubs at Tweed Heads. Mr Scott: The casino won't stop that, Mr HARTWIG: I am making this speech, not the honourable member for Cook. We should have stopped those bus loads of people travelling across the border. But what have we done? $175m is being spent on an international airport. It is said that the number of people coming to this State from the South is increasing. Overseas tourists arriving at the airport from another country on a package tour Mr Scott: What are you getting at? Mr HARTWIG: Just shut up. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Mr HARTWIG: The first thing they ask is, "Where can we go to a casino?" We send them to the New South Wales border. We encourage 1 mUUon people in Brisbane, Toowoomba, Ipswich, Redcliffe and on the Sunshine Coast to drive to the Gold Coast, in the shadow of the poker machines, to visit the casino. The wise men in the Government said "Let us put the casino on the coast, near the water." That was one hell of a mistake. I do not deny the member for Southport his casino. At one time Nevada was the only State in America in which gambUng was permitted. Very recently. New Jersey came on the line. Some years ago, the man who owned the land on which the city of Las Vegas now stands sold that land for $20. It lies in the heart of a desert. Today the city is a bubbling oasis and each year it attracts 22 miUion tourists. Just think of what Queensland could achieve with even half that number of people coming through the international airport in Brisbane. But what is going to happen to the people who come here? They wiU be sent down to the border. Mr Greenwood: Do you think we should have a casino at Yeppoon? Mr HARTWIG: I am talking about the successful applications. I agree that a casino should be established at Yeppoon. If the State of Tasmania, with 480 000 people, can support two casinos, surely Queensland should have called appUcations for four casinos. If each casino returns apiKoximately $2.5m a year, the Government could have obtained $10m a year to put into promoting sport. I agree with the honourable memtier for Ashgrove. Why should not the people of Central Queensland—the people of Longreach, Boulia and Yeppoon—have a casino? Why should they be denied an opportunity to travel only a reasonable distance to a casino? I agree to the introduction of a casino in (Queensland; I see nothing wrong with k. In Tasmania, aU the troubles have been ironed out, AU that the Queensland Government had to do was grant the licence to Federal Hotels, However, the Treasurer said that that would be giving Federal Hotels a monopoly, I do not agree with that, I am worried about the influx of a Malaysian group to administer the operations of a casino, Dr Edwards: Jupiter's will operate on the Gold Coast, Mr HARTWIG: What about Genting? Dr Edwards: They wiU operate the TownsvUle one, Mr HARTWIG: Here we have an AustraUan national hotel chain. Dr Edwards: They did not apply for Townsville, Casino Control BiU 23 & 24 November 1982 2669

Mr HARTWIG: The Government could have asked it to manage the casino. That hotel Cham has been through it aU. I have studied its business practices. In Hobart and Launceston the crime rate has fallen since the introduction of casinos. AU the talk about crime bemg associated with casinos is so much poppycock. It costs anyone in a country town $10 to walk down the main street on a Saturday morning. On the footpath, ladies are seUing raffle tickets and lucky numbers. The gambling comes to the person in the street. The Minister for Works and Housing, who represents the electorate of Burnett, would not be game to walk down the street without buying a couple of dozen raffle tickets. To gain entry to a casino, a person must be properly dressed, sober and honest. Of the six miUion people who visit the casinos in Tasmania each year, only 500 are refused entry. Anyone who walks in the door is under surveiUance, A fellow at the door looks every patron up and down, I now wish to comment on the employment situation. The Wrest Point Casino employs 662 people, about 70 per cent of whom Uve in Hobart, Just imagine the employment opportunities if we were to caU applications for four casinos in Queensland, which I believe should be the case. If we can have two casinos, there is no reason why we cannot have four. The miners in Central Queensland work 30 hours a week, and there are more than 160 hours in a week. If they could get to a casino, I venture to suggest that there would be no industrial trouble in the mines. After a week-end at a casino, they would be happy to return to work on Monday, Why should my constituents have to travel 600 or 1 000 miles to use the facUities available at a casino? As the member for Ashgrove said, all people are entitled to be able to go to a casino. What is wrong with that? It is just as easy to legislate for four casinos as for one casino. We are the second largest State in the Commonwealth, and we boast about our decentralisation policies. The people in the South who operate poker machines must be laughing aU the way to the bank. We wUl not have poker machines in our casinos. If people in Queensland do not like the casino on the Gold Coast, they wiU be able to go over the border and put their money into the poker machines ui New South Wales, That is nothing short of stupid. A casino should have been built in the Brisbane area to keep the people in Queensland, Bus loads of people travel from Brisbane across the border to play poker machines. It costs them $4 for the bus fare and they can get a meal at the clubs for $2 or $3, They have a good day and return to Brisbane, More than $50m a year is being lost to the Queensland Treasury, We are buUding a casino right alongside the poker machines, Dr Edwards: The people might come up to Queensland, Mr HARTWIG: I hope they do, I favour casinos, and I beUeve that, with the international airport and the way in which the city of Brisbane is developing, a casino should be built in the Brisbane area. Casinos are a tourist attraction and they also indirectly assist other industries. When my wife and I visited Hobart we hired a car and drove to Launceston. If a casino were built in the Brisbane area it would benefit the car-hire and taxi people. It would provide a tremendous boost for the whole city. Mr Scott: What suburb of Brisbane would you put it in? Mr HARTWIG: I would put it just outside Brisbane but vrithin easy driving distance of the centre of Brisbane, I have the figures for the casinos in Tasmania and I do not think that they are rigged. They have really done something for that State, Before they were established, tourism was dead in Tasmania. Tourist arrivals at the airport have risen by almost 200 per cent, from 344000 before the casino to about 536 000 six years later, Casmos wiU be of great benefit to the State, They wiU be under strict supervision. In my opinion, there is no risk that casino patrons wUl be able to do anything wrong. Beyond a certain point, a patron is not allowed to walk with a glass of beer towards the gambUng tables. He will be told to drink his beer within a certain distance of the bar. Walking into a casino is like walking into this House, Everything is very quiet. There is no yahooing. 2670 23 & 24 November 1982 Casino Control Bill

Tlie restrictions of the Tasmanian legislation have ironed out all the problems. If our casinos are as successful as those in Tasmania, they wUl be a great attraction in Queensland. I hope that, in the near future, additional casinos will come to those areas that are now classed as remote by virtue of their distance from Townsville and the Gold Coast, Mr ROW (Hinchinbrook) (1,7 a.m.): I recognise the lateness of the hour, but I feel that I should make some contribution to the debate. Wkh my coUeague the member for TownsviUe (Dr Scott-Young), I was privileged to visit the United States of America early last year. The purpose was to attend a Pacific Area Tourist Association convention. We also had an opportunity to look at casinos in the USA, which was quke an interesting experience. I have no doubt that Dr Scott-Young has said something about that this evening, and I do not wish to reiterate anything that he said. The debate has been interesting. It is not surprising that many differing opinions are held about casinos. The facets pf the casino industry are many and diverse, GambUng has always been regarded as a worthless occupation. One wonders whether, when we provide licensed gambling, we are doing something that is morally acceptable or unacceptable. It seems to me that it is very difficult for Governments to legislate for morals. That is a concept that I have always held. I try to keep an open mind about that subject. The social activity that will be generated by the establishment of casinos cannot be overlooked, I have noted with interest that several honourable members have mentioned aspects other than the moral issues of gambling that are associated with the activities of casinos, which can provide a glamorous, sparkling atniosphere for the wealthy as weU as a source of revenue for the pubUc purse. They can be a source of pleasure for the ordinary person who enjoys gambUng as a recreation. It would be impossible to choose any one of the various aspects of gambling and say, "This is as it should be," The significance of casinos is very much in the eyes of the beholder and I would like to think that I respect aU the varying views. Some see serious disadvantages, and no doubt the casino atmosphere can attract crime, prostitution and protection rackets, which are definitely fringe industries that arise in conjunction with the activities of casinos. But those are normal, domestic issues that exist in any communky^the larger the community, the larger the issue—and are not necessarily connected with the issue of gambling or casinos. It is debatable^ therefore, whether Governments should base their assessment of the casino industry on those side issues. However, Goveraments can. legislate against crime and collect taxes from gambling to reimburse the public purse, if that is any concession to the moralists. If casino gambling causes social hardship for those who cannot afford it, then surely there wiU be drop-outs when it is realised that they cannot afford the luxury of casino gambling, I stiU think that it is preferable to the common, backyard two-up game, which is the inevitable result of a lack of facilities being available to compulsive gamblers. 1 see that as a balancing argument to those who push the moral issue. If facUkies on a decent scale are available to people to gamble, surely that will stop some of the indecent types of gambling in which compulsive gamblers are inclined to participate. The honourable member for CaUide mentioned the large-scale casinos in Lis Vegas. Really that is nothing but a gambling city, but it has some interesting aspects. It is a tremendously large industry; it is aqity created entirely out of gambUng, It is skuated in a desert area of America that previously had practically nothing to support it apart from some very poor peasant industries. When casinos were established a large, viable industry, which is participated in by 22 miUion visitors per annum, grew up. Surely the impact of that has produced a great deal of revenue for Las Vegas, OveraU the net result must be beneficial to the gambling industry in America. Of course, the impact on the domestic community of the area was not very good. Many people resented the intrusion of the casino industry into a quiet area and many of the indigenous people left the area. Those people were resettled in other areas that provided the quieter life-style that they liked, I shall now refer to the Australian experience of casinos, namely, the Wrest Point and Darwin Casinos, I consider them to be on a very small, rather domestic scale compared with those overseas. The Wrest Point Casino has now been operating for a Casino Control BUl 23 & 24 November 1982 2671 long time. I understand that k is viable, but my impressions are that k does not depend very much upon the large-scale overseas tourist industry; it depends more on the domestic participants from the city of Hobart and perhaps the State of Tasmania, I do not think that we can gauge the impact of a large-scale casino development anywhere in Australia on current experience, so it remains to be seen whether the advent of a casino industry in Queensland, if k achieves any sort of scale at all, wUI produce a situation which may be new even to the existing casino industry in this country. The legislation has been criticised by various speakers, I feel that it is too soon to draw any conclusions about the effect of the legislation on the potential of the casino industry in this State, I believe, though, that the experience that has been gained by obserring the casino industry overseas has led to some precautions being taken by the architects of this legislation. I believe that it is designed in good faith with the object of preventing those undesirable side-effects that may arise from the advent of a large-scale casino industry in Queensland. We should be pleased that the Treasury officials and other pubUc servants who have assisted in the drafting of this legislation have grasped the nettle and have been prepared to take steps which they believe are necessary to protect the public of this State from any undesirable side-effects that may arise, although that is largely conjectural at this stage. I beUeve that the legislation is commendable and worthy of the support of this House.

Dr LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) (1.16 a.m.): I wiU speak only briefly. It has been claimed that casinos wiU bring revenue to this State, Perhaps they wiU, but I am prepared to wager—and I am not a betting man—'that it will be many years before the State derives any great amount of money from casinos. Times are such that it is proving difficult to finance the construction of the casinos. Many of the original financiers have withdrawn because of the difficulty in arranging finance within Australia and because of the very high interest rates that have to be paid to service any money borrowed. For those reasons, most of the onshore financiers have withdrawn from the project. Just as there are hard times ahead for finance, there are hard times ahead for gambling. There is intense competition for every gambling dollar. The Government can create an expansion in any form of gambling that it likes, but an expansion in one area will be matched by a drop in another area. It ranges from horse-racing through to Lotto, the Soccer Pools and the bingo games that are used so much by some charities. It has been said that the introduction of casinos wUl stop iUegal gambling, but that is absolute nonsense. There has been illegal gambling in this State for a long time. Il ranges upwards from Illegal gambling on pin-ball machines. When the companies that make the pin-ball machines are prepared to instruct the owners of the sites where the machines are located on how to teach their patrons to gamble, there is no point in saying that any other form of gambling, such as poker machines, can be controUed. When manufacturers of machines are prepared to go to such lengths to actually teach people how to break the law, there is no point in putting any faith in the idea that the setting up of two casinos in this State wiU cut out illegal gambling. It wiU not minimise Ulegal gambling in any way. It will only aid and abet the spread pf illegal gambling, I am concerned that the side effects of casinps wiU undoubtedly rub off on the community. The problems surrounding overseas casinos have been highUghted by the scandals associated with casinos in London, Without doubt similar problems will arise here in time,- No matter how rigid the Government may be in drafting legislation or how dedicated the inspectors are in enforcing the laws governing casino operations, prostitution wUl eventually be carried on in the night-clubs associated with the casinos. They wiU be use'd to pay off those who have to be paid off, I venture to suggest that attempts will be made to introduce practices similar to those that were m vogue in London, such as directors-only tables and directors-only rooms, where directors got free chips and every player won. One great scandal involved a British member of Parliament, the grandson of a very famous psychiatrist. At regular intervals he sat down at a table where the directors were given free chips. They could not lose. In that way they received their payola from the casino, I object very strongly to Parliament being asked to rubber stamp legislation after long discussion about what is and what is not to be in k with the ground rules being (Changed, progressively, particularly when public servants have been sent out without 2672 23 & 24 November 1982 Casino Control Bill any clear legislative basis to negotiate with applicants for a Government franchise. It is a pity that our public servants had to work under such condkions, Slun have been cast on some of them by people who think iU of the Goverament or its public servants. Slurs have been cast undeservedly because the pubUc servants had no clear legislation to refer to to show that they were acting within the law and in accordance with the Government's wishes. It is a great pity that we are not compelling casino operators to charge an admission fee, Overseas casinos have been placed adjacent to national borders or in isolated places, such as on top of mountains or on islands where access is easUy controlled. The Governments further discourage locals by unposing a tax in addition to the entrance fee. Many overseas casinos completely ban locals. They record the name of every gambler who enters the casmo and demand an identification card before entry is granted. Most overseas casinos are governed by national legislation that prohibits overseas ownership. The economic cUmate in Queensland is such that the Goverament cannot do that. It is a great pity that the Government had to accept overseas financmg. If it had not done so the casinos would not be proceeding at this time. Some things done overseas, that will not be done under this legislation, include an absolute ban on poUce officers, army personnel, pubUc servants, accountants, solicitors wkh trust accounts, accountable employees of banks and financial institutions and all known criminals. Of course, criminals wiU be banned in Queensland, The Commissioner of Police will be able to serve notice on a casino operator that certain people shall not be admitted. That is the correct procedure. Mr Scott: It sounds like a prohibition order.

Dr LOCIKWOOD: Yes. The Commissioner of Police can issue an order and provide a photograph. That is provided in the BUI. The Commissioner of Police must have power to exclude such people from casinos and the casino operators must do their very best to comply. They would be fools if they did not try to do so. Criminals do not visit a casino to wish the operator well. They go there to see what they can get for themselves. I have visited the Wrest Point Casino in Hobart on two occasions, I am not at all convinced that it attracts international tourists. It attracts a few interstate conferences, but it depends totaUy on the support of the people of Hobart, When I first went there in 1976, the Tasman Bridge was down and the casino was ffoundering because it lacked the patronage of the people of Hobart who lived in the suburbs on the north shore. They could not get across to the casino. They had to travel up river and go across a BaUey bridge to get there. The attendance at the casino was down. That casino profits only because of the patronage of the people of Hobart itself. Anything else might be a bonus, I am not a gambling man. When I visited the casino, a Queenslander who was attending a conference at the hotel said to me, "Look around. What do you notice? There is not one happy face here," I looked around and, winning or loskig, there was not a happy face to be seen. The former Minister for Tourism, the Honourable Max Hooper, said at the time that Queensland did not need casinos to attract tourists. That is absolutely correct. Once people are hear as tourists, some wUl visit a casino. However, I do not foresee a great influx of tourists, particularly interaational tourists, to Surfers Paradise to jrfay at the casino, Mr Borbidge: I will take a wager on that, DT LOCKWOOD: I would like to see a jumbo-jet load of tourists turn up to j^y at the carino. If the honourable member can arrange that, he will be doing quite well for the country. At least we wiU get the departure tax out of them. It will be a long time before the State makes a profit out of the casino. I do not doubt that the Gold Coast wUl derive some benefit. Because of a failure to charge admission fees, many people who can hardly afford to gamble away their money will enter the casino. I do not think that the one per cent to be contributed to the local commktee wiU go anywhere near solving the problem of people who can iU afford gambling. Casino Control Bill 23 & 24 November 1982 2673

Mr PREST (Port Curtis) (1.27 a.m.): As the hour gets later, I become more surprised that this legislation has tieen introduced and is being debated at this hour of the morning. I would be very interested to know what motivated two Christian people, that is, the Premier and the Deputy Premier, mto believing that casinos are the be-aU and end-all in the State of Queensland. In fact, I have not seen the Premier show as much concera as he has shown tonight smce the Queensland Interaational Tourist Centre Agreement BUl— the Iwasaki BUl—was introduced in 1979, That gives me some reason for grave coircem, I have listened to the debate, and many honourable members have shown some concern, especially about the way that the legislation before the House was drawn up. Members have quoted figures or receipts and profits from casino operations in other areas, particularly in Tasmania, However, they have not referred at any length to the side-effects that are associated with gambling operations such as large casinos. One of the side- effects would be the introduction into Queensland of the criminal element. Criminals wUl come here to make a quick quid as best they can. Protection money wiU also be a side- effect. We have already heard mention about a further expansion of prostitution. It is associated wkh casino operations. One aspect that concerns me is that a ftirther form of gambling in this State wiU create even more social problems, AU honourable members should be conceraed at the social problems that confront the family unit, Queensland already has ample forms of gambling. Only a certain amount of money is available for the family unit. If extra money is to be taken out of the family purse and put into yet another form of gambUng, more social problems wUl arise, Wkh the introduction of Gold Lotto a downturn occurred in the takings of the Golden Casket, which at least is doing something for Queensland by way of helping to maintain the free hospital system. It can be seen that there is only a certain amount of money to go round. If the Government continues to introduce furtlier forms of gambling, those forms that already exist wiU feel the effects. Tonight honourable members have heard of the small-time gambling that goes on throughout Queensland, which helps to finance sporting clubs, p. and c, associations and so on. The Uttle person who indulges in gambling in a small way provides revenue to maintain the smaU non-profit organisations. If people are given the temptation to indulge in get-rich-quick forms of gambling, those small organisations wiU be severely hampered, 1 beheve that the Government could take 20 per cent of the take of casinos. That means that only 80 per cent wUl be left to go round. The operator, of course, must get his fair share of the take. So very Uttle wiU be left, Dr Edwards: That is not the definkion of what the take is. You have not read the definition of "take" Mr PREST: What is k? Dr Edwards: Read the definition. Mr PREST: I am quite certain that the TAB must be taking in the vicinity of 16 or 17 per cent, so I suggest that the return from,the casino operations wUl be higher. As I have said, I am concerned that the operations of the casinos wiU involve shyster operations, without which big-time gamblers would not regard gambling in casinos as a worthwhile proposkion. So I am deeply concerned. The more I hear about the matter, the more concerned I am, FinaUy, I am certain that 1,30 in the morning is not the time when the House should be discussing such important legislation, Mr HARPER (Auburn) (1,34 a,m,): I do not intend to touch on the moral issues involved in the establishment of casinos, because the decision has been taken by the Government to estabUsh them. However, I wish to draw some comparisons, which I have made myself, between existing casinos m Australia, First of all, I found the casino at Darwin to have rather a shady atmosphere. Certainly It was not enhanced by the presence of poker machines. Of course, I asknowledge that it is a temporary casino. Nevertheless, if anyone wants an example of what we do not want m Queensland, I suggest that he should visit the temporary casino in Darwin, At Alice Springs in the Northern Territory there is quke the opposite. There is an attractive complex, but again spoilt by the presence of poker machines, I could not agree that that is the Australian counterpart of Las Vegas in the middle of the desert. 2674 23' & 24 November 1982 Adjournment

Certainly, AUce Springs is not in the middle of a desert, and it certainly has a lot of tourist attractions. My observations there led me to believe that Australia probably does not have the capacity to establish an economically viable casino in an isolated area. It seemed to me that the very well designed and constructed casino at Alice Springs must be having difficulties, financiaUy and economically. Certainly, it is having difficulties with staffing; and I suggest that staffing is a most important matter for consideration. It is of the utmost importance that the staff of the casinos are highly efficient, well-trained and trustworthy, I am not suggesting that the staff at the AUce Springs casino are not trustworthy, but I do suggest that they lack the expertise that is really desirable in a casino, Therti of course, we tura to the Tasmanian scene with the Wrest Point Casino and the addition of the second casino, I have not visited the Launceston Casino, but I have had the pleasure of visiting the Wrest Point Casino, In my opinion, it is an extremely well-mn tourist complex, and I think that that is what we are looking for, I am sure that the member for Surfers Paradise will be looking for just that—a very well-run tourist complex in his electorate on the Gold Coast, I have a very real concera at the precedent that is being set by some aspects of this legislation, I can certainly weU appreciate the fears of the memjjer for Southport. It is undoubtedly dangerous ground on which we are moving when we set the precedent that has been set in this legislation; but, at the same time, I also appreciate the reasons for doing so. Although I find it hard to reconcUe my concera with the fact, I believe that in this instance the Government wiU probably rightly agree to the BiU in its present form. In that regard, the BiU has been aUowed to lie on the table of the House for ample time to allow members to give it full consideration and to allow for public comment, I congratulate the Treasurer on that aspect of his introduction of the BUl, I also congratulate him and his officers on the preparation of the legislation once a decision had been taken by the Goverament to allow the development of casinos in Queensland, Hon, L, R, EDWARDS (Ipswich—Deputy Premier and Treasurer) (1.38 a.m.), in reply: I thank honourable members for their comments on the BiU. As the hour is late, I seek leave of the House to complete my reply tomorrow. (Leave to continue speech tomorrow granted.)

ADJOURNMENT Hon, C, A, WHARTON (Burnett—Leader of the House): I move— "That the House do now adjourn," Head Lice Mr JONES (Cairas) (1.39 a,m,): The subject that I wish to bring to the attention of the House tonight is not a pleasant one; however, I have promised mothers of children that I would raise it. It concerns head lice, luts, or boobies, as they use to be called when I was at school. Over the last five years head lice have become a problem in Cairns schools. The problem has not been confined to Cairns, For some time it spread throughout the State, It became so prevalent that the Teachers Journal of 18 August carried an advertisement headed "The last thing any teacher needs is a lousy bunch of kids." It went on to offer slides, tapes and posters on how to find head lice, treat them and kiU them. On 16 September 1982 I asked a question of the Minister for Health, which I believe he adeptly side-stepped. I was seeking a new approach. Head lice are becoming a scourge. ChUdren are missing school and everybody, including teachers and parents, was at his wits end about how to eradicate the problem. There has been much buck-passing. In answer to my question, the Minister stated that head lice infestation is not a health problem. It is certainly a problem of hygiene, a challenge which the Health Department shouW accept. Adjournment 23 & 24 November 1982 2675

Fine-tooth metal combs ought to be issued free with pamphlets and treatments. Proprietary lotions containing malathion are being used weekly by many parents as a routine shampoo preparation because of reinfestation from untreated children. Those preparations are not meant to be used with such regularity. The problem of pseudo-lice has been pointed out by the Health Department, There could be an associated health risk in the accumulation of malathion in the body as a result of such prolonged usage. There have been instances of parents no longer using recommended lotions and turaing to preparations that they have in the household, including Baygon surface sprays, Asuntol cattle dip and malathion dog wash as cheaper methods. It is very likely that the availability of effective combs and preparations at nominal cost through local councU health departments would obviate all of those problems, I ask the Minister for Heakh to consider supplying lotions and sukable combs to local councils throughout the State, I have a copy of a brochure that has been drawn up in conjunction with parents and teachers, which is down-to-earth and clear-cut advice recommending kerosene and olive oU as treatment. It tells what the lice are, what they do and what should be done about them. The advice is very good, I suggest that the Health Department produce a similar pubUcation so that jjeople who are suffering from head lice are able to rid themselves of them. The treatment is similar to that used when I went to school. Under the heading "What to do if you find head lice", it says— "Lotions are available from the chemist or a mixture of i cup of kerosene and i cup of olive oU may be combed through the hair and left in for 3 days," It mentions the treatment that should kill the lice and the unhatched eggs. It recommends using a fine-tooth comb, as I suggested CiarUer ought to be supplied. Combs from retaU outlets—plastic combs and so on—are unsuitable. It is the kerosene that kills the nuisance. The oil is simply to hold it there. Vinegar combed through the hair may help to loosen the eggs. However, I am concerned about the dermatitis caused to the scalp by the constant misuse of other lotions which if used inadvertently over a long period, may affect the children.

Drought Conditions in Queensland Mr HARTWIG (Callide) (1,44 a.m.): It would be somewhat remiss of me if I did not bring to the attention of the metropolitan members, in particular, the seriousness of the drought that is sweeping this State and the eastern part of the nation and the tremendous impact that it is having. Every beast and every sheep that is destroyed is a tremendous economic loss to the landholders of the State and the State in general. It is high time that Governments paid more attention to drought mitigation. The Government speaks about the declaration of shires as being drought affected, raU freight concessions and a payment of $10 per head to shoot cattle. The Government should be more positive. Since I have entered this place I have always tried to put forward some kind of a scheme that I have hoped, wkh funds from the Treasury, would be iiriplemented by Cabinet, It is time that the Government considered greater water conservation and a greater allocation of funds for the preservation of fodder and the conservation of water. That must be done. The State has the soil, the equipment and, in good seasons, the climate to produce. The State gets droughts as sure as night follows day but the Govern­ ment seems powerless to do anything for farmers. Admittedly concessions are offered but when people have to shoot stock it is too late to offer them $10 a head for cattie and $2 a head for sheep, . - Mr Neal interjected, ni^ ^'^^TWIG: Many landholders do look after themselves. When the price of wool alls below a certain level the Federal Government acquires it in an endeavour to help the sheep grower. nf L "^ '* "° reason why Governments could not strategically locate huge stockpiles ot hay throughout the .State. It could be deposited there at a cost and sold out at a cost plus profit. Hay that is well preserved and weU cured will keep for years. 2676 23 & 24 November 1982 Adjournment

The trouble with drought is that many landholders are reluctant to start feeding eariy. In my electorate a chap is now feeding 3 000 head a day. So he is now committed. The other side of the coin is that the lucerne grower must be kept in production. One of the troubles is that the underground water levels in many parts of the Callide are dropping drastically and, for the first time, irrigation pumps are sucking air. So that causes a lack of irrigation and the supply of fodder cannot be kept up to those who are feeding 3 000 head of cattle. The State has a real problem on its hands and I would hope that the Treasurer would allocate sufficient funds to make sure that every person who is capable of irrigating is given all the assistance possible so that he can produce fodder. In the Biloela region every bale of hay is worth a bar of gold. So that means that landholders depend upon the irrigators who depend on adequate water and equipment to irrigate lucerne. In conclusion, I say that I trust that Cabinet considers the matter and, if need be, employs certain officers to personally give jjpsitive and direct assistance to people on the land who require assistance. Some people who have large irrigation farms require financial assistance to get on with the job of producing fodder, which must be grown if the State is to maintain its cattle herds,

Wilson and Heron Islands Mr PREST (Port Curtis) (1,49 a,m,): I wish to speak about the leasing of Wilson Island, I support the Gladstone City Council which has strongly criticised the State Government's granting of a special 30-year lease over part of Wilson Island to tourist developers, P & O AustraUa Ltd, The mayor of that city has said that the reasons given for the lease were "garbage", and that the Government did not approach the councU for its views on the use of Wilson Island, The island comes under the control of the Calliope Shire Council, and at a recent meeting that shire council decided that it would seek information on the full terms of the lease recently granted to P & O Australia Ltd for a camping development at WUson Island, It was said that the State Government had gone over the council's head in granting the lease. The council claimed that P & O had also bulldozed clearances for the construction of its new blocks on Heron Island without the councU's knowledge. So here again is a situation where P & O has been granted approval by this Government to do something without taking local jgovernment by-laws and regulations into consideratirai. It is a shame that this has happened and that local government regulations wiU be bypassed. The job of local authorities is hard enough at the best of times, but it is made much harder when the Minister takes control and does not seek the

permanent residents because they would not work the island as much as the tourists, who are there for only a short period and want to do as much as possible. They are doing untold damage, I believe that P & O has done a great injustice to Heron Island, (Time exphed,) Rotary Club Service to Accident Victims Mr STEPHAN (Gympie) (1,54 a,m,): I want to spend a couple of moments this evening to discuss a project of a type one does not normally come across. It has recently been developed by the Rotary clubs in the Gympie area and takes the form of assistance to victims of accidents who, although they have not been injured and gone to hospital, have been left far from home with nowhere to go. They are strangers in a place far from their home enrironment. They are frightened and probably do not have very much money in their pocket. The idea developed when one of the members of a Rotary club was involved in an accident and had nowhere to go and knew no-one. It is a credit to the people concerned. It was started by the Gympie/Cooloola Rotary Oub, when two of its comnuttee members agreed to have their names placed on a list to be sulnnitted to the local hospital, ambulance, police and anyone else associated with accident victims. When a person from out of town needed someone to look after him or somewhere to go for a few days, the people with the list of names rang one of the club members to say that assistance was required. On many occasions accidents do not occur in the middle of the day or early in the evening. Assistance is usually required for accidents that occur in the early morning hours. It is a great credit to the committeemen that they make themselves available at that time. In one instance some foreign exchange students were traveUing north on what was to be a working holiday. Instead of reaching their destination a number of them, lost their lives. The others were so Upset that they did not know where they should go or what they should do. They appreciated the help and assistance that was given to them, they were very thankful for the time that was devoted to get them onto their feet and for the opportunity to recuperate so that they could return to their home country. On another occasion, a young couple was involved in an accident. The husband, who was seriously injured, was taken to hospital. The wife, who did not know where to go or what to do, was assisted by one of the committeemen involved in the accident aid project. The idea has taken on so weU that five committee members are on the list to serve the community in this way. I hope that the idea spreads to other areas throughout the State and Commonweakh so that assistance and support may be rendered in times of great need. The Red Cross room in hospital grounds renders similar assistance. Anyone who is away from home and has a loved one in hospital, can stay in a Red Cross room. Volunteers supply food and bedding. These community projects are worth while and are certainly appredated by accident victims. They highlight what man will do when he is given an opportunity to serve.

Land Shortage in Queensland Mr EATON (Mourilyan) (1,59 a.m.): I msh to raise with the Government the land shortage in Queensland, One cause of the land shortage is the large number of absentee landlords who are compounding the problem by purchasing land as an investment and a tax dodge. The problem, is further compounded by people who want to settle on the land and avail themselves of the few opportunities that exist. Because of greed on the one hand and need on the other hand, they take on financial propositions that they cannot afford. Absentee landlords and investors do that to avoid paying tax. People on wages or those who •Jierate smaU businesses are trying to save money to purchase land. They are making up the tax difference that is avoided by other people because of their land investment. Many people improve their land only as a taxation deduction. That is one of the problems facing society. The opportunity to expand this State is being killed. People with famiUes should be given an opportunity to take their place on the land to raise young Queenslanders ^ future farmers. Many farmers who are being lost to other primary industries in this Mate will be needed in the future. It has been proved that people reared on the land 2i6?S 24 November 1982 Paper become successful landholders and are an asset to this State. In some Commuiust countries persons put on the land are told, "You must do this and you must do that," To be a successful landholder and to produce from that land a little more than energy and incentive is needed. Young people who have been forced off the land over the last few years by high prices should be brought back to it. It is the Government's responsibUity as the custodian of the land in this State to create opportunities and to give people the incentive to return to the land with their families, , ,

WiUiam Bryant Johnston Mr BURNS (Lytton) (2,1 a,m,): I would like to pay a tribute to the late BiU Johnston who, for 33 years, worked in this Parliament as an attendant. It is fitting that at 2 a.m. we should think of Bill and those other persons who work so very hard on our behalf. I am grateful to my colleague the Government Whip and to you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to say a few words about Bill Johnston. From time to time we pay tribute to the many members of Parliament who pass through this Assembly over the years. Many hard-working, decent and honest men and women work in the Parliament to assist us and to help us on our way. When I first entered Parliament I found BiU to be a very co-operative, helpful and friendly bloke. It is a shame that there is no other way in which we can give credk to a person who has worked and co-operated with us, BiU commenced work here in 1949, He was 61 years of age when he died of a heart attack. He was cremated yesterday morning. He began employment as a general assistant, became an assistant parliamentary attendant, and then the assistant senior parliamentary attendant. On 10 January 1980 he was appointed to the poskion of senior parUamentary attendant. There would not be anyone in this Parliament who would have a harsh word to say about Bill, He was a friend and he will be missed. We must remember that his family are left without him, I know that his mates in the ParUament have made arrangements with you, Mr Speaker, and the Clerk of the ParUament to take up a smaU coUection to send something to his wife and family to let them know that we remember him, I do not want to labour the point. It is up to us all to recognise those people who work so very hard to make our jobs so much easier, BiU Johnston was one of those blokes. He was a good bloke and we are sorry to have lost him. Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Motion (Mr Wharton) agreed to, , , The House adjouraed at 2,3 a,m, (Wednesday),