: L’ALIÉNATION A THIS MORNING DE L’OUEST : ROUNDTABLE UNE TABLE RONDE DE THIS MORNING

On Feb. 7, 2001, the CBC radio Le 7 février dernier, la radio de program This Morning held a la CBC présentait, à son émission public forum on the question of This Morning, une table ronde western alienation. The host consacrée au sentiment d’alié- was Michael Enright and the nation qu’éprouve l’Ouest du panelists were: pays. Les personnalités suivantes The Right Honourable Joe participaient au débat : Clark, Leader of the Progressive M. , député de la Conservative Party, Member of circonscription de - Parliament for . Centre et chef du Parti David Kilgour, Liberal Member progressiste-conservateur; of Parliament for M. David Kilgour, député Southeast and the author of libéral d’Edmonton-Southeast two books on Western Canadian et auteur de deux livres sur history: Uneasy Patriots, l’histoire de l’Ouest canadien Western in Confederation and (Uneasy Patriots : Western Canadians in Inside Outer . Confederation et Inside Outer Canada); , Mme Diane Ablonczy, députée allianciste Member of Parliament for Calgary Nose de Calgary-Nose-Hill; Hill. Mme Doreen Barry, professeure de science Doreen Barry, professor of politics at politique à l’Université de Calgary; . Mme Sheilah Martin, professeure de droit Sheilah Martin, professor of law, University à l’Université de Calgary; of Calgary. M. Philip Resnick, professeur de science Philip Resnick, professor of political science politique à l’Université de la Colombie- at the University of , author Britannique, à qui l’on doit Politics of of Politics of Resentment, British Columbia, Resentment : British Columbia, Regionalism and Canadian . and Canadian Unity. In a first-time collaboration, Policy Options Pour cette première collaboration, Options is pleased to publish an edited transcript of politiques est heureux de publier une version part of the discussion. The guest editor was révisée d’une partie cet échange. Peter This Morning Associate Producer Peter Kavanaugh, producteur associé à This Kavanaugh. Morning, était le rédacteur invité.

6 OPTIONS POLITIQUES AVRIL 2001 Western alienation

Michael Enright: Joe Clark, let me sug- Diane Ablonczy: I wouldn’t say it’s Doreen Barry: Western gest to you that while there are pock- alienation in the sense of a coldness or alienation isn’t a myth. ets of resentment and perhaps even a withdrawal or estrangement because anger in the west, the current tub- I think very much It has its roots deep in the thumping about western alienation is wants to be part of the national region’s history, particularly a myth. It’s a creation of the media— debate. Western Canada is growing, it’s on the prairies, which the eastern media perhaps—or of some strong, it’s vigorous, it has solutions entered Confederation on political parties. and ideas to bring to the table. And it Joe Clark: No, it’s not a myth. wants to do that. I think its frustration a different basis from There’s a deep-seated alienation in is that the central government, the the other provinces. western Canada. There has been for west believes, is utterly indifferent to And the legacy of western some time. It takes its form sometimes the ideas and the aspirations that west- alienation is this deep and in simply an anti-system feeling, ern Canada wants to put on the table which is deeply rooted here. That’s in the national debate. abiding suspicion of the probably the minority part of it. I David Kilgour: Alienation, as you federal government. think there’s also a significant sense of said, is a psychological term, and it’s And the conviction that frustration that western Canadians are one that’s been applied to us. A west- Confederation was for the not able to have the impact upon—or erner, an Albertan, today told me he think we’re not able to have the thought even the expression was a benefit of . impact upon the shaping of the put-down. But whether you call it nation. Is it a crisis? Not yet. I think it alienation or disaffection it certainly think that Albertans feel alienated is a very significant opportunity for a exists, and has existed. It’s an histori- from other Canadians on a personal national government. cal thing that the people here in this level. I think, though, that when we Sheilah Martin: Well I think it’s a theatre know and your listeners from look at the way that the anger or con- real feeling that is justified if we look the west know about. But it’s an oppor- cern for place has manifested itself, it’s at history, and at the structure of the tunity that all governments have to alienation from a central government. government and where and face, and it’s one that we’re facing by, Not even alienation from other the west sits in it. Westerners’ feelings, for example, reducing taxes. An provinces or from the east, but with their concerns about their place in Albertan in the back row told me the central government apparatus, and Confederation, have been remarkably today that his taxes this went down by how that works and structures things durable, and have existed whatever $500. So we have listened to the west, for the west. political party has been in power. So it and to Albertans, and we have lowered Michael Enright: What does that can’t just be alienation from a particu- taxes and lowered them significantly. mean? What do you mean the struc- lar type of political party. And I think Doreen Barry: Western alienation tures and how it works? We have a in large part as well, it’s attitudinal. isn’t a myth. It has its roots deep in the Parliament, we have people elected Philip Resnick: Well, I wouldn’t say region’s history, particularly on the from all parts of the country... that everyone in western Canada feels prairies, which entered Confederation Sheilah Martin: When you look at alienated, and I think one should rec- on a different basis from the other the impact, though, that a province ognize the divergence. There is a sig- provinces. And the legacy of western the size of Alberta can have in that nificant divergence of opinion alienation is this deep and abiding sus- Parliament, when and between the larger cities and certain picion of the federal government. And have the majority of the seats ... Of other places. I’m thinking of cities like the conviction that Confederation was course precedence is given to the parts , maybe Edmonton, for the benefit of central Canada. of the country that have more popula- Vancouver and Victoria, on the one Michael Enright: I want to get into tion. But over time that structure may hand, where I don’t think the senti- the question of alienated from what. have contributed to the feeling that ment is nearly as strong, and the In my lifetime, we’ve had four prime we’re not being listened to as carefully smaller cities, the suburbs and so on, ministers from thewest. One of them is as we might have liked. on the other hand, where I think the here tonight. The west has been Michael Enright: I want to throw a feeling is strong. Having said that, I do involved in federal-provincial confer- number at David Kilgour. An Ontario think that historically there has always ences over the years. What are we talk- MP represents about 96,070 con- been a sense that the west is different. ing about here? Who is alienated from stituents. An Alberta MP represents The issue that’s arising now out of this what part of what aspect of Canada? about 96,075 constituents—just about most recent election is a certain desire Sheila Martin: That’s a very good the same. What’s your problem? for recognition as a distinct part of this question. We need to be specific here David Kilgour: Well actually you’ve country. and to analyze it carefully. I don’t raised a good issue. The Supreme Court

POLICY OPTIONS 7 APRIL 2001 A This Morning roundtable

Philip Resnick: There’s no came to my attention most dramatical- other occasion. With appropriate mod- question that a lot of the ly — this question of things being dug esty, I think this is a larger question in, of western Canada having come late than that. resentment and frustration to the country — had to do with the David Kilgour: It is indeed. I agree in recent decades in the practical issue of government purchas- with you on that, Joe. west has arisen from the ing. A pattern of purchasing had grown Philip Resnick: There’s no question sense that Quebec has up that had most of the buying being that a lot of the resentment and frus- done in central Canada. There was tration in recent decades in the west dominated the national some in Atlantic Canada, but most of it has arisen from the sense that Quebec agenda ... But I think in central Canada. It was very hard to has dominated the national agenda. there’s something much change. The question of setting up sep- That is an ongoing issue and it was more specific which has arate agencies like ACOA and the alluded to in the CF-18 discussion we Western Opportunities Department were just having. But I think there’s triggered the current round have taken on lives of their own, but something much more specific which of discussion, and that is part of the reason we set them up in has triggered the current round of dis- the outcome of the most the first instance was to try to find cussion, and that is the outcome of the recent federal election. some critical mass that could change most recent federal election. those buying patterns. If you look at the actual represen- of Canada said, under Chief Justice Now, extrapolating from that, I tation in the House of Commons you Beverley McLaughlin, that we could think that one finds quite generally a would have the impression that every- allow a 25 per cent deviation on popu- sense that people with good ideas go one in Ontario except perhaps for one lations. But in terms of rep by pop, I into the Canadian structure and find or two per cent had voted Liberal, and think most Albertans and most west- that their good ideas are slightly dis- that 80 per cent of the folks living in erners would like to see a 10 per cent counted because of where they come , Alberta and British maximum variation between ridings. from. That’s the problem now. Columbia had voted Alliance. In fact Michael Enright: But clout-wise Michael Enright: If my memory we know that half the folks in Ontario you’re on the same level as Ontario. serves, and it rarely does, the govern- did not vote Liberal. And half the elec- David Kilgour: Yes, but our popula- ment of Canada has a contract for the torate in British Columbia and tion is growing very much faster. Next maintenance of the CF-18, people in Saskatchewan, and a little under that year’s census will show that Alberta Winnipeg had a cheaper bid and the in Alberta didn’t vote Alliance. should probably have 31 or 32 mem- contract went to Quebec. But the perverse effects of our bers of Parliament, British Columbia Joe Clark: Yeah, and that’s the first-past-the-post system we inherited more like 37 or 38. In fact our institu- headline of the point I’m trying to from Great Britain lead to this out- tions are always behind. As everybody make. The more substantive issue is come, and also mean that the Liberal knows, in BC and Alberta our popula- the consistent difficulty of getting Party, now for the third time running, tion has trebled in the last 20 years, established patterns changed. has had a caucus overly dependent on whereas the population of Canada as a Michael Enright: You were at that the heartland province of this country, whole has gone up much less than table. You could have said … namely Ontario. I think that has con- that. Joe Clark: I was at that table. No tributed to the sense of resentment, Michael Enright: So, Mr. Clark, does question about that. And we can spend it matter if we’ve got too few people the evening on this issue if you want. Diane Ablonczy: Our party out here and there are a whole lot of David Kilgour: Joe, I was a believes that we should be easterners? Is that the problem? Conservative in those days, and I can Joe Clark: No, I think the problem assure you that that was the beginning looking at reform of the is that the country’s institutions, its of the end for me with the electoral system, to have a nature and its expectations were Conservative Party, when you guys— more proportional shaped when this was a much smaller and I was a member of your caucus representation, simply place. And there’s a sense that western then—when the Mulroney govern- Canada continues to be treated as a ment went for Canadair rather than because there are some smaller place, even when it isn’t any Bristol Aerospace in Winnipeg. That very perverse effects more. was the beginning of your end as a currently. But let’s not kid I think it’d be interesting to sepa- party in western Canada. ourselves. The bulk of the rate out the question of the anti-system Joe Clark: Well, David, you and I feeling. I think that is a real phenome- can have a discussion about why you support for the Liberals non but a different one. Where this left and where you went on some is in central Canada.

8 OPTIONS POLITIQUES AVRIL 2001 Western alienation particularly, I suspect, of many people this drives Albertans, particularly, to David Kilgour: We believe who voted Alliance in this last elec- use a different lens when they are in a populist sort of tion, who feel there’s really no hope assessing this question. for a breakthrough and that ultimately Michael Enright: I’d like a little his- democracy where the whole thing is fixed against the here. In 1905, the Provincial everybody is equal; we west. Rights Party was set up. There have don’t look for élites to Michael Enright: In your province been populist parties in this part of the accommodate. This is one of British Columbia, the Canadian country for a hundred years, including Alliance, with less than 50 per cent of parties such as the CCF, the Progres- of the reasons why western the vote won 80 per cent of the seats. sives, later the NDP, the Reform Party, Canada is very special: Diane Ablonczy, you like that, don’t the , and so on. We’ve tried to democratize you? What is behind all this? Is it the oil in Canada, whether it’s the Diane Ablonczy: Well, actually I the ground? don’t. Our party believes that we Doreen Barry: No. Senate or whatever, and should be looking at reform of the Michael Enright: What is behind all we will continue to try to electoral system, to have a more pro- of this discontent that seems now to democratize Canada. portional representation, simply have blossomed into what we are all because there are some very perverse calling “alienation.” nificant everywhere in the country. effects currently. But let’s not kid our- David Kilgour: A great many They may be more significant than the selves. The bulk of the support for the things. Demographically, we’re signifi- regional differences when we get to it. Liberals is in central Canada—wonder- cantly different from much of Canada On an issue like free trade, to take an ful and excellent representatives like in the sense that about six in ten west- example, there was a clearer will in David notwithstanding. And… ern Canadians do not come from favour of free trade in western Canada Michael Enright: The bulk of folks Europe, Britain and France. They come and in Quebec. are in central Canada. from other parts of the world. Michael Enright: Why do you think David Kilgour: Yeah, but that We broke the land here. Most of that was? brings up the question of why... our parents and grandparents, or a lot Joe Clark: Well it may have been, Diane Ablonczy: But what that of them, went out and broke the land, hold on, because it was a western idea means is, that there is a continued and we inherited a lot of their atti- a western idea with deep roots but also focus on the needs and aspirations and tudes. We like frugality; we believe in a western idea that was seen to be voices from that part of the country. cooperation; we believe in public brought forward by western We must fix that if we’re going to be a health care—a whole lot of things this Canadians. Premier Lougheed was a truly federal national system, and region has contributed to Canada. We prominent advocate. respect and give some validity to what do not believe in élite accommoda- Philip Resnick: Canada is a country other parts of the country bring to the tion. We believe in a populist sort of of regions and regional identities, table. democracy where everybody is equal; there’s nothing new about that. The Michael Enright: When Jean we don’t look for élites to accommo- west has certainly been one very Chrétien says the west is different, date. This is one of the reasons why important part of that. But within the everybody gets angry. But isn’t the western Canada is very special: We’ve west — we’ve got to be honest here too west different? tried to democratize Canada, whether — there are multiple identities. It’s not Doreen Barry: I think that western it’s the Senate or whatever, and we will only the urban-rural divide; there are Canadians, and particularly Albertans, continue to try to democratize Canada. differences, alas, but they’re there, share some fundamental values that Michael Enright: Now, is within the region. For example, British are pan-Canadian. But in political based on the idea that there’s some- Columbia for certain purposes thinks terms it’s very easy to mobilize west- thing called the popular will. It’s the of itself as a region apart. Alberta may erners against the federal government job of politicians to discover what that for certain purposes think of itself as and against central Canada, because of will is, and act accordingly. Is the pop- part of the prairies but my hunch is this history on which they base their ular will in the west somehow differ- that increasingly Alberta is beginning opinions: you know, the tariffs, the fact ent than the popular will in Ontario or to think of itself as a region-province that natural resources weren’t turned or Prince Edward Island? almost in its own right. Those senti- over to the prairie provinces until Joe Clark: Depends on the ques- ments are there and are going to con- 1930. Now, all of those things have tion. It depends on where it’s tinue to be there. And there’s nothing been addressed but nevertheless there expressed. Philip made a point that I illegitimate about them per se. is this residue of suspicion of the feder- think is quite important, about the The problem arises if for one rea- al government, of central Canada. And urban-rural differences, which are sig- son or another regions with a growing

POLICY OPTIONS 9 APRIL 2001 A This Morning roundtable

population, growing economic impor- attitudes, if you look back on some of we’re being excluded. I think western- tance and so forth, feel that their voice the economic policies, many people in ers want into the kind of influence and in the larger national stage is not being the west would argue that the prairies ability to affect the national agenda, heard. And I think what we’re getting were used as a support service for cen- that they perceive central Canada has. in this most recent round of the alien- tral-Canada industry. Michael Enright: Professor Resnick, ation debate is another sense that Michael Enright: National Energy in your book The Politics of Resentment: somehow the voices of western Program. . 1980’s. British Columbia Regionalism in Canada in multiple forms are not Sheilah Martin: One of the many Canadian Unity you say that while being heard nearly as loudly, clearly, or examples. When you’re asking ques- British Columbians and Canadians as effectively in as they ought tions about popular will or wanting in, share a number of values, British to be. it’s to be heard in a way that’s respect- Columbia wants respect and wants to Michael Enright: There are 66 ful, and where due consideration is be treated as a serious actor in the members of Parliament opposed to the being given to that perspective. When national debate. What does that Liberal government’s way of doing I said it’s attitudinal, I mean that a lot mean? things. That’s not a voice but a choir. of times people are worried that legiti- Philip Resnick: I’m going to go back What is the problem with that? Why is mate concerns aren’t registering the for one second and say I quite agree the west not being heard? way they should, given their under- with the original formulation by Diane Ablonczy: I think the short about the west wants answer to that is that west is not being Sheilah Martin: [The West in, and I want to emphasize that that heard because it still is far from the has a rather different temper to it than levers of power in Ottawa. And even wants] into the power what one has been hearing from when the west does have the levers of structures, into being seen Quebec for the last 40 years: It sound- power, as it did to some extent with as a credible participant in ed rather different. There were certain- Mr. Clark’s government, or some other Confederation. If you look ly very good reasons to think—or fear, representations in the Mulroney gov- depending on one’s perspective—that ernment, the predominant voices still at the history and see some the desire was really to get out, not to seem to favour the central-Canadian of the attitudes, if you look be in. viewpoint. There is an impact on the back on some of the Now the “in” here does mean debate, but not a defining of the economic policies, many “in.” I’ll back up what Sheilah and debate to the extent that western others have been saying: It means a Canadians feel is in order. people in the west would significant role in decision-making, for Doreen Barry: I think that the west- argue that the prairies were example, representation in some of ern Canadian voice isn’t being heard used as a support service the more important federal agencies: as loudly as Ontario’s because we have for central-Canada industry. the Bank of Canada, the CBC, the a smaller population and because we National Energy Board. There is a long have fewer MPs. But in addition to series of things where the sense is that that, there is sense that even when we standing of how a country like ours somehow western Canada has simply did have important Cabinet ministers should work. not had that kind of a clout. from Calgary and western Canada... Michael Enright: I read in the local Michael Enright: Ms Ablonczy, is it Joe Clark: Or prime minister. press, as I come in on the airplane, that all a matter of resources here? Is that Doreen Barry: Or prime minister, it the Premier of all Alberta, Mr. Klein, what we’re talking about essentially, didn’t seem to make much difference, says he will protect Alberta consumers that the west—Alberta, British because there are structural problems of energy against rising costs. (I detect Columbia to a certain extent—is in this country. Alberta and the west a note of disbelief in the audience.) No resource-rich, and therefore we in the are a periphery. So you’ll have this other province can say that, and I west want to show our muscle, eco- metropolis-periphery problem whoev- would suggest every other province nomic or otherwise? er is in power. would say that’s unfair. Diane Ablonczy: I wouldn’t agree Michael Enright: When Preston Sheilah Martin: I think that’s just a with that at all. Ontario has, what?, 90 Manning invented the Reform Party, function of the fact that Alberta is now per cent of the world’s nickel. There’s his slogan was “The west wants in.” a very wealthy province. But over the hydro-electric power in Quebec and Into what? course of history there have been vari- Newfoundland. There are plenty of Sheilah Martin: Into the power able relationships. But just the ques- resources across the country. I think the structures, into being seen as a credible tion being posed—what does Alberta issue really is whether those resources participant in Confederation. If you want into?—suggests a power relation- carry a value-added that brings the look at the history and see some of the ship that we are on the outside and power that the manufacturing heart-

10 OPTIONS POLITIQUES AVRIL 2001 Western alienation land has traditionally had. One of the David Kilgour: Yeah I have. Well a ful or inclusive of the input from other things that has always puzzled me— lot of people have, but one of the parts of the country. Isn’t that really and Mr. Kilgour and Mr. Clark might agencies is the CBC and it was men- the heart of the matter? have an answer to it—is that even tioned by Philip. I have figures for... Michael Enright: Sixty years ago when there’s a majority government they’re a bit dated now, but in 1988- William Aberhart talked about the 50 which has huge representation from 89, your agency of the government of bigshots back east. Is that what we’re the west, like the Mulroney govern- Canada spent about 82 per cent of its talking about now? That the east is ment, the power structure doesn’t seem national budget on goods and services controlling? to shift to any appreciable degree. within Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Doreen Barry: I want to go back to Michael Enright: So, what hap- Western Canadians would like to think what it is that the west wants. And, if I pened? that the CBC represents the nine mil- can be indulged for a moment, I want Joe Clark: Well in some cases in lion of us that live in this region just as to relate an experience of mine. I was fact it did. On agricultural policy, it much as you represent the people who lamenting to a friend of mine who did. Anyone who compares the aid live in Toronto Montreal and Ottawa. teaches Canadian literature in the US. that was extended to Canadian farm- Now that’s part of what I call cultural And I said to her it’s really sad that the ers under the Conservative govern- imperialism. It’s profoundly disquiet- western experience and the western ment with what’s paid now would ing, I suspect, to everybody here settlement experience hasn’t found a agree with that. The Free Trade place in the in the Agreement, which, as I say was largely way that the west in the US is very cen- generated as a western idea, happened. Joe Clark: When I had to tral to that identity. In fact, they think But there’s no doubt that those were chair the constitutional the American west was the crucible of not the natural governing circum- conferences, I had a hell of American democracy. And she said, stances. The natural governing circum- a fight with my colleagues you know, if you think about it, the stances have a power structure in popular culture has the western cow- place, and it tends to lag behind reali- to take the hearings on the boy as its central character, but in ty. It’s like the reputation of universi- road. People didn’t want to Canada, if you look at Canadian litera- ties, they tend to lag behind—excuse leave Ottawa. Whenever ture, she said, and the people who get me anyone from a university here. there’s a debate, as there is Governor General’s Awards, for exam- What we have to try to do is find some ple, that is part of the Canadian iden- way in which there can be a much right now about whether tity. And she said that the most closer relation between the power that the G-8 summit should be authentic Canadian literature is west- is there and the problems that are in Ottawa or in Calgary, the ern literature. And she considered there. argument is it should be in Margaret Atwood and Robertson Michael Enright: Do you want Davies not so Canadian. You can sniff deputy ministers from the west? Is that Ottawa because that’s at that. what you’re saying? where the embassies are. Michael Enright: Well, I wouldn’t Joe Clark: I mean in part deputy sniff at W.O. Mitchell, and Jack ministers. When I had to chair the tonight, to think that you, as you said Hodgins ... constitutional conferences, I had a hell earlier, you flew into Calgary. Why Doreen Barry: Margaret Laurence. of a fight with my colleagues to take isn’t your show or Sheila Rogers, why Michael Enright: ... and Margaret the hearings on the road. People didn’t isn’t she producing that show—and I Laurence, of course. Professor Martin, want to leave Ottawa. Whenever know she does her best in this—but isn’t it part of the way this country there’s a debate, as there is right now why aren’t all of the CBC television works: that you use the leverage of about whether the G-8 summit should and radio shows presenting Canadians power in order to get certain things for be in Ottawa or in Calgary, the argu- to themselves fairly on a regionally fair your region? What is wrong if the west ment is it should be in Ottawa because basis too? decides to take on some of the appur- that’s where the embassies are. There Michael Enright: That’s the man- tenances of the way Quebec has oper- are always arguments for doing things date. We’re supposed to be doing that. ated in the last few years? the old way. That’s the power struc- Diane Ablonczy: That’s a symptom Sheilah Martin: There is a bit of a ture. How do you change habit? How of the disease. The disease is that, feeling in this province that Quebec do you do it with authority? And I because there are so many seats in has received special status and treat- really think that’s the issue we should Ontario and Quebec, as long as the ment and distinct privileges because it be looking at. government has a stranglehold on that has talked the language of separation. Michael Enright: David Kilgour area, it doesn’t really matter so much As a strategic matter, there are people you’ve been trying to change it. whether they’re responsive or respect- here saying, well we have concerns,

POLICY OPTIONS 11 APRIL 2001 A This Morning roundtable

Joe Clark: I think people Asian trade bloc, it has a stronger system feeling east of the - would scoff a little bit at understanding of the US through its Ontario border. There’s a sense of oil industry links and so on. But it’s belonging to the country that was cre- the idea of there being a simply not being given the kind of ated east of the Manitoba-Ottawa bor- sense of culture and voice in national affairs that would not der. And out here there’s a sense that identity here. And yet there only benefit the west but would bene- we didn’t create it. is a sense of culture and fit all of us in Canada. That—the indif- This question of identity, the ference of the central government to question of writers, is of great interest identity here, certainly not what the west has to offer—is what is here, because there is a common view identical to that in Quebec so frustrating … that, in addition to everything else, ... But part of the issue here Philip Resnick: On the separatism Quebec is an artistic place, with a sense is that the Quebec sense thing, there have been riplets, not just of real culture and of real identity. I here in Alberta, but in BC, too. From think people would scoff a little bit at gets taken seriously, and time to time there have been voices the idea of there being a sense of cul- the western sense does not. saying let’s get out, sometimes these ture and identity here. And yet there is have been opinion-makers, the odd a sense of culture and identity here, they may not be based in culture, they politician, and sometimes in polling certainly not identical to that in may not be based in language, they you will get, depending on the mood Quebec, certainly with different ori- may be different historically, but we and the moment, ten per cent or so or, gins, perhaps even with different influ- have our own set of concerns that we or 15 even, saying, yeah, let’s go. But I ence over the community. But part of want to make sure are on the table. quite agree with the politicians on this the issue here is that the Quebec sense And it could be a strategy in terms of panel that on the whole the senti- gets taken seriously, and the western separation. But even if you think that ment, the deep sentiment I think, of sense does not. that’s not a good strategy, what it does British Columbians, like Albertans and Sheilah Martin: In terms of the convey is the importance of taking the others in western Canada, is certainly identities that we have, every person issue seriously, because people are pre- to remain in Canada. in every province that I’ve ever visit- pared to talk in harsher terms, and But, and this is the big but, there’s ed—and I’ve been across this coun- Confederation is a relationship and it a difference between our sense of try—feels that they’re both: They’re changes over time. It only changes in being a region, one that wants to be hybrids between their province and good ways if you listen and have understood and respected as such, and their country. And I think that that’s a strong communication, and you can what would really be implied in going good thing. Of course, we can talk talk about the matters that arise. the route of independence or seces- across the differences that we do have, Michael Enright: Ms Ablonczy, if I sion, which is thinking of oneself as a if we do it in a meaningful and respect- recall, there were two members of your nation. People in Alberta and British ful way. I came to the west in the party who were at the convention that Columbia do not have—and this is the 1980s. I moved from Montreal. So I launched the Alberta Independence difference with Quebec—they don’t saw Quebec separation there and Party. Separatism, is that an option? have the sense of being a nation, nor chose Alberta as my home. I had heard Diane Ablonczy: No, it’s definitely do they really want to be a different about western alienation when I was not an option, and I don’t think that nation, but, there is a real sense of there’s any kind of solid support for it, being a region or regions, and there is Sheilah Martin: When I nor do I think there will be. a very healthy desire and I think a per- came here and had my first Michael Enright: Historically a lot fectly legitimate desire to be under- federal election, and turned of people have talked about it... stood and recognized as regions. Diane Ablonczy: Well, but that’s Michael Enright: Is there a differ- on the television and at talk. The point is that it’s another ence between an Alberta Canadian and 8:01, when not a single symptom of the frustration that is felt a Maritime Canadian and a Quebec vote in Alberta had been here. And I think it’s a legitimate Canadian and a Newfoundland counted, and I was told expression of the frustration, it’s not Canadian that speaks to its political one that’s going to go anywhere in my complexion? Is there something that that there was a majority view. Nor should it. And it’s not a real- makes us so different from each other government, I got it, for istic solution. But we have to recognize that we can’t get together and agree on the first time. My vote that the west is growing; it’s dynamic; anything? wasn’t counted and already it’s becoming stronger; it’s economical- Joe Clark: Oh no. We can agree on ly becoming a powerhouse; it’s posi- a lot. But are there differences? Sure I knew what was going to tioned to take advantage of the Pacific there are. There’s probably less anti- happen to the country.

12 OPTIONS POLITIQUES AVRIL 2001 Western alienation in law school in Quebec, and didn’t tity may well be more cultural. But a Ontario who had similar views as understand what it could possibly be lot of it is geographic. It does happen. Albertans not vote for the same party.? about, given the more acute form of And, to some degree—I think a little That should be her question. alienation that I had studied when I less—it happens the other way. There Diane Ablonczy: I think that is was in eastern Canada. And I must say are some people who came from here important. Because over the years that when I came here and had my who are more comfortable either in we’ve done a lot of surveys, polling first federal election, and turned on Ottawa ... or, more likely, in power. and focus group tests and there’s very the television and at 8:01, when not a Doreen Barry: But in fundamental little evidence that our parties’ posi- single vote in Alberta had been count- ways, how are they different? How are tions or views are rejected because they ed, and I was told that there was a we different from people in Ontario in come from the west. That has not been majority government, I got it, for the fundamental ways that would matter the case. To some degree, they weren’t first time. My vote wasn’t counted and in terms of policy, for instance? communicated as well as they should already I knew what was going to hap- Joe Clark: Well, I don’t think have been. They were distorted by our pen to the country. they’re fundamental ways. As well as opponents, which happens in an elec- Doreen Barry: I think one should being in a Parliament with David tion. But there was no rejection ask the question “Who is a westerner?” Kilgour in a party, I was in a govern- because it came from the west. In fact, Because there are a lot of people in this ment with Lucien Bouchard. And he as ideas and as policies, they were very province and across the west who’ve represented a rural Quebec riding much accepted. And so what we need come from somewhere else, many of when I represented a rural Alberta rid- to do is recognize that people across them from central Canada. Are they ing. And I was convinced that if you the country do look for sound ideas; transformed as they cross the border? took the people who lived in Lac St. they look for virtually the same things Is there something in the water that Jean, and the people who lived in in the way their government operates, suddenly makes them alienated? Yellowhead, and went down them on a but there’s a difference in the kind of Joe Clark: The answer to that is: value scale, you would find that the weight or voice that is sometimes yes, they are. There are all sorts of same values were held in Lac St. Jean given to those ideas. Ontarians. I run into them literally as were held in Yellowhead … So it Doreen Barry: But Diane, some- every day: people who have come out isn’t fundamental. But it does have to body has re-interpreted their election here to Calgary or elsewhere and say I do with a lot of other things. results to mean that western ideas would not leave. And that’s not an Perceptions that we grew up with have been rejected in Ontario, and anti-Ontario sense. It’s that they have David Kilgour: A poll came out dur- therefore the west has been rejected by found a sense of identity and comfort ing the election which suggested just Ontario... here. that: that the views and attitudes of Michael Enright: I’m very sorry. A lot of it is geographic. It’s inter- people across the country were I’m afraid I have to stop it there. I esting: our identity is probably more remarkably similar. And what Diane want to thank you all very, very much geographic, whereas the Quebec iden- should say is why didn’t the people in for participating.

Klein is key I’d like to take you back a plan. But the provinces were bound known, one of the first premiers to to the evening of Sept. 10, 2000, in and determined to get additional speak out was your Premier. Ralph Ottawa. The Prime Minister was hosting money from the federal government. Klein said in his direct style, and I am a dinner for all of the premiers and the “No money, no plan,” they told us. No paraphrasing, “I’ve seen the plan, I’ve three territorial leaders, in preparation plan, no money, we responded. We seen the amount, I’m ready to sign.” It for an important negotiation session went back and forth like that through- was a decisive moment. The tone was scheduled for the next day. The centre- out the summer. set ... piece of the negotiations was an agree- And then, as always in Canada, we The reason I’m telling this story is ment on our health system renewal. were able to work things out. Numbers that it reveals a great deal about what Throughout the previous summer, I began to circulate, as did ideas for a joint your province represents within the fed- had worked hard to help the Prime plan. However these negotiations are eration. It’s been five years now that I’ve Minister and my colleague , always difficult and some provinces still been Canada’s Intergovernmental the Health Minister, conclude this agree- had major problems with the agreement. Affairs Minister. I’ve lost count of the ment of great importance to all Ontario and Quebec, in particular, had number of negotiations where we said Canadians. It wasn’t easy. The federal concerns that it might constitute an back in Ottawa: Klein is the key. government indicated to the provinces intrusion into provincial jurisdiction. that solving our health problems isn’t Which brings us to the First Stéphane DION, at the University of just a question of money: we also need Ministers’ dinner on Sept. 10. As is well Alberta, Edmonton, 12 April 2001.

POLICY OPTIONS 13 APRIL 2001