Tynwald Court

DOUGLAS, TUESDAY, MAY 29, 1900.

Present : His Excellency the Lieut-Governor, Gen), Deems-ter Kneen, the Attorney-General, the Receiver-General, the Archdeacon, and the Vicar-General, in the Council ; and the Speaker, Messrs J. D. Clucas, R. Cowley, A. N. Laughton, J. R. Cowell, J. Goldsmith, P. Cadman, J. Mylchreest, D. Maitland, W. Quine, It. Clueae, J. Quattrough, J. C. Crellin, W. A. Hutchinson, J. Joughin, J. R. Kerruisli, R. Corlett., and W. J. Remade, in the Keys.

ADDRESS TO THE PRINCE AND PRINCESS OF WALES. The Governor : I have a reply to our loyal address to His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, which, with your permission, I will read to the Court : Sir Francis Knollys, secretary to the Prince of Wales, is desired by the Prince and Princess of Wales to etirorces their warm thanks to the Lieut.-Governor. Council, and Keys of the leo of Man for their 'kind and sympathetic con- gratulations on the merciful preservation of their Royal Highnesses on the recent attempt on the life of the Prince of Wales. It has afforded their Royul Mgt:me:1ms mulch plea, sure to receive the address from, the Legisla- ture of the Island on this occasion:

THE LATE SIR ALURED DIIMBELL. The Governor : I will also read a letter I have received from Miss Bigg-Wither : Miss Bigg-Wither, in acknowledging the resolution of the Tynwald 0ourt, offering their Address to the Prince and Princess of Wales.— The late Sir Alured Dumbell. 464 '1YNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. sympathy on the lamented death of her uncle. the late Sir Alured Dumbell, will he grateful if his 11xcellency, Lord Henniker will convey to the °Dart her sincere thanks for their kind eocpre&ione of condolence. and for the acknowledgment of the valuable services rendered in the Legislature and on the Bench by the Into Sir Alured Dumbell.

THE HARBOUR BOARD, The Governor : The hon. member for Rushee has a question to ask. I think perhaps this will be the best time for asking. questions. Mr Qualtrough : The question I sea about to alk is—When does your Excellency intend completing the nomination for the appointment to the Harbour Comrnissionership now vacant, representing the harbours of the south of the Island on the Harbour Board? It is, as this Court is aware, nearly 12 months since the appointment became vacant. The Governor: The hon. member must confine himself to the question. He must not make a speech on the question. Mr Qualtrough: I think it is nearly time, in the interests of the south of the Island— The Governor : The hon. member, is not in order. He must confine himself to the question, and not. make explanations.

Mr Qualtrough; r think it i.5 part of t he question. However, I leave it to you. The Governor It is only the rule in Parlia- ment, and I think the best thing we can do is to follow it. This mailer has been placed on the agenda for to-day, and will be explained later on.

PEEL HARBOUR BRIDGE. Mr Laughton : I wish to ask the Receiver- Genera] whether his attention has been called to the proposed bridge over the harbour at Peel, whether he has submitted the matter to the resi- dent engineer, whether he has made a. report thereon, and whether the Receiver-General ie ready to publish that report? The Receiver-General: Your Exceneney gave instructions to the Harbour Board some time ago to prepare a report on this. This report was ready a long time ago, but, through forgetfulness on my part. I am afraid we hove not forwarded

The Harbour Board —Peel Harbour Bridge. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 4o5 it yet to your Excellency; but it shalt be done immediately.

REGISTRAR-GENERAL'S REPORT. The Governor: I lay the report of the Regis- trar-General, with regard to vaccinations, before the Court.

FINANCIAL STATEMENT. The address which his Excellency the Lieut- Governor delivered at the last sitting of the Tynwald Court, when he laid on the table the financial statement, was as follows:— The .governor : I do not propose to trouble you you wiih a longer statement than is absolutely necessary. I think that a long, prolix statement, with a prolix list of details, is somewhat irksome and sometimes rather puzzling to those who do not look carefully into financial questions. I will endeavour to make what I have to say as concise as possible. The statement I have to make must be satisfactory in these days of increasing expenditure. However, to shorten my statement as much as I oen, I will read to you some parts of a memorandum from Mr Aitken, whioh, like all else that he does for the good of the Island, is exhaustive and' useful. My friend, Mr Aitken, has drawn it up, end has put it so shortly and well that I feel sure I shall put my statement before you in the beet way I can by doing so. The revenue for the year ending 31st March. 1901, has been estimated at £89,000, as against .4 4d, the ordinary revenue for the year ended 51st March, 1900.

Registrar-General's Report.—Financial Statement.

g... A ctual receipts Estiinale receipts Increase on Docreasc on ,A.togp p --, 2o,-,....5,: o n=. for Year to. or Year to Year to Year to

,4:-...:,.....c5 l' 3tst March, 1900. 31st March, 1901. 31st March, 1900, 31st March. 1: TYN C' ''' D g41 -, .e1.' 3 71:1i. Spirits £11,67315 0 £38,770 0 0 — £2,903 15 0 agS - ,s w.'-' coffee and Chicory 6t 10 11 60 0 0 — 1 10 11 WA -. &.-.. p. Beer and Malt 6,412 6 5 7,570 0 0 £1,106 13 7 -- i:19 Ogog Allowance tor- LD go,c2 ,,4- To.% 7,991 0 0 ,215 0 0 1,224 0 0 - UCEU g.,e yi, g ::'; El Teliba:CO COURT U n 1$,794 0 0 10,725 0 0 031 0 0 - -F.. Ft, g a P 2,985 0 0 3,060 0 0 75 0 0 31 n 0 Other Imperial duty paid goods 262 0 0 2141 0 0 — 2 0 0

.-, 2E' —PI ;:;96z 78,230 12 4 8,660 0 0 3,330 13 7 2,9117 5 11

"131g w 9 o q Fees and Miscellaneous Receipts. -2,65318 4 2,2110 0 0 116 1 8 —. , M m=".c°m..a 0,,. 01 Boat Licences, &e. 21140 2,040 --- 50 'fit 0 0 0 0 Kg ,,,, Rents aud Tolls ...... - 220 1 1,760 0 0 1,539 13 11 — a 011. y 29

U ..?;-:,, 3. 11 !b f..,:, ' p a Interest on Loans ..„ ...... 1,117914 8 1,510 0 0 — 430 14 8 1 .c. z5. 1,,":=1. 9 p Balances in Dumbell's Bank, to be 82,484 11 80,290 0 0 7,062 9 2 3,317 0 7 , 1900 P a•-, recovered and brought to no-ac- g' ti 1.. 5...$1, Count in year to 31st March, 1901 1,800 0 0 1,800 0 0 - ''a' £82,481 11 08,000 0 0 9 2 . igi £8.852 43,3E7 0 7 -,F-1'1:',-.; .9, .-,7 1,417 0 7 W - E4..-ag- Net Kstimated Iric masa over 960 £5,517 8 • 7 TYNWALD COURT, May 19. 1900. i67 which in the ordinary course of events would have own* into the current year's accounts. Tho duty received on spirits last year was £41,673 Deduct from this the duty paid on spirits cleared. out of bond in antici- pation of the new duties, early in March, say 1,700

The difference of ...„ ...... £39,973 would represent what. may he called the normal clearance of spirits for last year. And if from this amount of £39,973 is deducted the estimated receipts from spirits in the Current year 38.77P

the balance ...... ...... ,....,., £1,200 will about represent the decrease on the actual receipts for 1900: and this deereflse arises from the fact that in estimating the receipts from spirits we have taken, as a guide practically. the figures for the financial year ended 31st March, 1999 (which roughly represents the moan of the three years 1849, 1899, and 1990). instead of taking the figures of last year. The increased estimated revenue from beer anu malt arises from the operation of the additional duty levied on these articles by the Tynwald Court last March. Tire same remark applies to the increased receipts from tea, tobacco, and wines, n.u.r, the increased consump- tion of these articles in the United Kingdom, in which the Insular revenue shares under the existing arransement with the Imperial Government. We must. not forget this point. It is of great importance. It is absolutely necessary we should go alongside the British duties as to tobacco, tea, wine, and so on. These duties must be the same to preserve the very good ar. rangement we have. It is most advantageous to us to take ..•e same allowance as the rest of the -United Kingdom. The duty being the same, we take an advantage, as part of the British isles, calculated upon our fiscal population. it ;s only wise to go alongside with England as far as we possibly can. For instance, beer is a fixed seals now, will be of 1055 specific gravity, 5s fid a barrel, and will rice and fall. I may mention that the duties now imposed will go alongside of the duties in the rest of the country. The duties are increased by our resolution from March frt,h Iasi, bat the arrangement comes to an end, untes^ renewed on 1st August, 1901. You will °beet,' that the customs receipts from goods other than tea, tobacco, and wines, are only esti- fated at £46,400. This is a decrease of nearly 21,800 on last year, arising, amongst several other reasons, from the fact that goods were cleared

Financial S'aternent.

469 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 190P.

last March, in antioipation of the increase of duties. The small increase under the head of fess. etc., arises from receipts from fee stamps, and Rolla Office remuneration interest, alroli ought, to have been paid over last year, but which were locked up in Dumbeli's Bank, being brought to revenue in the current year. The item of £2,040 from boat licences, bay fishery rents, and other receipts under the Isle of Man Harboura Act, 1872, is made up as follows:— Amount received by the Harbour ur r, suers under head last, year, but which was not paid over to revenue Owing to its being looked up in Dumbeli's Bank 1:L04G Estimated receipts during the current year 1,010 £2,040 The item of £1.760 from rents and tolls estimated for in the current year is mainly made up of- Reints of Victoria Pier Bui:dings received last year, but not paid over tin Dumbeli's Bank) £ 600 Rents estimated to be received in the current year 1,025 It may be well to state hero that in the estimate of the current financial year no sum is included as receipts from Castle Bushel/ and Peel Castle tolls for the following reason:— Hitherto it, has been usual to bring to credit of general revenue any 'balance of tolls in hand at the end of each year, after paying salaries, wages, and smaa incidentals, the cost of the up- keep of the building.; being met out of general revenue, For the future it is proposed to alter this, and to sax directly out of the tolls the whole of the expenses incident to the G' ties, including their repairs. :-diould balanea remain in hand on 31st March, it will be kept in hand to meet any contingent expenses that may arise, and to pay chargee that fall due during the period when tolls are net coming in, and wh:ch hither to have been met by temporary advances from other sources. The falling off in the estimated receipts under the head of interest on loans arises from the reduction of the capital amount of loans out. stanuing by the yeany repayment of principal. and from the reduction of our floating balances at the Bank of England available for invest mein. The following figure. show how the receipts from spirits and beer for the current year have been arrived at. The receipts from spirits for the year ended 31st March, 1899. as) already explained. have been taken as representing, roughly, the mean of three years. British Spirits: Revenue for 1899 £27,492 Add for increased fsl per gallon 1,480 £28,972 say £28,800 Financial Statement. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 49

Rain: Revenue for lee) ...... £6,603 Add for increased 5d per per gallon 350 £6,953 say £7,001 Brandy: Revenue for 1899 £1,9117 Add for increased 5d per gallon 195 £2,092 say £2,030 Geneva: Revenue for 1894 £914 Add for increased 5d per gaid on 50 £964 say £900 biquears, Cordial?. eto. £70 S38.770 Beer: Average amount of, duty received in years 1898, 1898, and 1900 £6.373 Add for increased duty levied last March, say 1,600

£7,973 But as beer has a, somewhat . downward tendency of late, say ... 7.570 The estimated public. expenditure for the year ending 31st March, HUI with the exceptions of the following items calls for no particular remark:— Salaries and pensions on Civil List show a slight increase owing to two or three Officers having been. paid for only a part of last year. Their fuel salaries and pensions appear in the estimates for this year. Police shows an increase! of £352 over last year, £196 being under the head of clothing. the balance being caused principally by the fact that as the present financial year began and ends on " nay' day." there are 5.3 pay days for those of the force who are pa-id weekly. This happene once in about every four or five years. Under the head of Harbours there appears for the inset time a. charge of £320 for expenses of maintenance, etc.. of the Victoria Pier Buildings. however, is Unix an apparent addition to the public expenditure Hitherto the Harbour Otimm'esioners, before paying over each year to tee revenue the rents of the Victoria Pier Build• ings, deducted the CX^C113133 connected with these laiii&n,es. The nee receipt's, therefore, alone were brought to credit. The Escchequer and Audit, Department now require that in future the, rents in full he paid over, and this necessi- tates the expfinses being provided out of general revenue. 'The trar.saotian is really one of account keeping. A sum of £2,400 far building grants for schools appears in the estimatee for this year in Februare, 1898, the Council of Educelenn were iiiforined that the lricnitenant-Gov- eviler was of opinion that the time had arrived when building grants should he discontinued, as they have been in krVand, and an intimation was g'ven that no such grant, e.etild be critertaleed unless application for it were made before 15th August, 1098.

Financial Statement. 470 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

Five schools have been co'mPlet44, tions for the grants in rolpect of whie', we*.. made before the date in question. The amount of the grants claimed is 12.:00. and when the school budding accomits have been examined and found correct. the usual roes for these grants will be submitted to Tynwald. It is possible that further grants to the amount of £2,670 may have to be made. but it is itnposaitie to my definitely at present. The maximum charge for interest on the Government guaranteed shards of the Manx Northern Railway occurs this Year. the Com- Daily's accounts showing no available Inthineo towards this interest. The vote of £1,000 for a grant in aid of the Lunatic. Ayium rats disappears from this year s estimate. the grant for advertising haying been increased by a corresponding amount. The increased charge for Local Government Board is caused by accounts which should hare been presented for payment in former years, having been omitted to be eo presented. They will have to be met this year. I may here mention (his Excellency raid in continuation), live vote for the Museum at Caelo Rushee. The estimate is £150 for the purchase of the skeleton of the Irish Elk, and the fittings required to show the collection of coins and so on. The estimate for the publication of the debates is to cover two years. The grant formerly was £75 a year. Mr Brown said this was not enough, I said £100 should be granted. The question was settled by a proposal to pay £110 a year. The editor, Mr Brown, asked to he pai.d £200, the office to sell 411 spare copies_. I objected to this, and the question was Fettled by a certain number of copies being supplied for official use, the rest to Le sold by him at the usual price, £110 a year being paid for two years, as I have stated, up to the end of the legislative year, that is, to next duly, when a new arrangement will be made. The members of the Court will see that we must fol:ow the scale of duties in England. If they ore altered next year in a deereaFing !sale we must lose considerably. We cannot really benefit from the surplus revenue arising out of the increased duties for about fifteen months from their imposition. We must do nothing as to increased expemliture till we can see our way clearly. Time must he given for a wise decision as to what, it i. best to recommend. The new income will hard:y be felt for a long (line—I mean the increased du;:e>•. I am trying lily hest to get more for the Island without further increased taxation. 1 am met in England in a kindly spirit at present. 1 hope I miy saurian with time and patience. My suggestion is not rejected, but Financial Statement. PtiNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 471 time must, be given in any ease. I do not make any new proposals at present. There arc many things in the Island on which more revenue could be wisely spent for the benefit of the inhabitants. This must be left over for a time to see if I can possibly succeed in wlat. I am trying to do. T do not think anyone really knows what I am try ing to do. except. my official chief. Sir Matthew Ridley, and his Honour the Clerk of the Rolls. who has given me privately, at my special re- quest. his advice on a question in which 'he, with his long experience and complete knowledge of tho question in hand, was able to give tne the most valuable assistance, and which, I venture to think, no one else could give so forcibly. I am most grateful to him, and I can only •ny that if I can do what I hope to do for the Island, my success is owing to his timely and able help. 1 shall he glad, if I am successful, to think that I have been able to be of come service in these distressful times. I must wait to make new proposals till I can see the outcome of my negotia- tions, when I will bring forward a supplemental estimate if necessary. I know from experience in England what. it is to have a balance in hand. Everyone has his favourite scheme for some object. I ask you to hold your hands, and rce • What balance wo eventually have io deal with, and to 'take any proposals I may make as a basis of di8CUBRIOn. The Lord 13tsliap coos to Weak. MT J. R. Cowell: May I ask you, before his Lordship addresses the Court, is his Lordship going to discuss the financial position, or is he— The Governor,. He is going to move the 'Edu- cation vote.. Mr J. R. Cowell. Before that vote is made, I trust the Court will not he so uncomplimen- tary as to pass by your Excellency's budget speech, with all that is involved in it, in silence, and proceed to discuss the next matter of business. In my opinion, that would certainly not be respectful to the chair, and it would be very impolitic indeed, and an act such as I don't think the lower branch of this Legislature could wisely lend themselves to. It has always been my wish in years past on these occasions to attract the attention of the members to certain matters arising out of your annual statement, and I have a very strong conviction indeed that if the members of the Legislature present, on this day

Financial Statement. 472 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

of all days, allow the occasion to pass in silence, one of two conclusions must be arrived at either that they take no interest in the statement which has been made—do not care anything at all about it, or that, for some reason or other, they failed to understand it. Because the people's repre- sentatives on en occasion of this sort surely ought to have something to say on the Island's finances, and ought. to regard the opportunity presented of discussing the particular questions of our Island's finances as the annual field day. Now, as it appears to me, in endeavouring to initiate some discussion—because I need not go further than to say that if nothing very tangible arises out of the discussion, the very fact of a discussion is a, healthy sign; the very fact that we do ask questions, that we endeavour to feel our way, that we endeavour to draw out your Excellency's policy, that we criticise it, it may be sometimes in ignorance, though it may result in nothing, is a desirahlo course for the lower branch to pursue, and one, I think, our constituents have a right to expect at our hands. So that, even supposing I should make very grievous blunders, and make myself look somewhat. weak in the attitude I have taken up, I would rather be accused of having tried and failed rather than of not having tried. The first matter I wish to attract the attention of the Court to is the bet that, in the estimate for the present. year, and for next year, 1900 and 1901, we have, under ihe head of the Civil List, the salaries of the Clerk of the Rolls, the first Deemster, and the second Oceinster, and I find that for 1901 ;he spproximate estimate on page 12 sets forth that each of these gentlemen is paid £1,000. I think am justified in asking you this—and I am rather disappointed you have not anticipated the quss• tun justified in asking you to make tome st.itement to the Court with regard to the arrangement nude with regard to the duties of thus gentlemen. I do so most, respectfully, but I have a right to do so. The country is very much concerned about. the matter, arid, so far as we are concerned in this body, I think-, up to the present moment, we have no idea what the arrangement for the future is. We sec that I er- tale_ changes have. /Ken made, and we ti:so observe that that arrangement is ono which may throw a large increase of duties on certain gentlemen, and y cause at least one of them to oectipy a dual poiiion. But, at al: events, we have a rights to m1,- your ExCefletley to he kind

Financial Statement. TYNWALD COURT, May .9, 1900. 473 enough to explain to the country what is the present arrangement, and how it is likely to work. Then, while looking over this financial statement and balance.sheet, one cannot but he struck with the fact that your position is an exceedingly strong one. Financially, you are a strong man in producing this statement, to us; but, I an sorry to say, I cannot use that word with regard to the speech you have just delivered. Your position is strong, but your policy is weak, in fact, I fail to discover the policy. We have the usual statement. made on the debit and credit side; but I listened with almost painful interest to ascertain that, you had any scheme which was -suffieiently advanced to enable you to lay it. before this Court, and on which the Court might have calmly, during the net few months, ma- tured its judgment. I did observe that, in your concluding remarks, you make a somewhat mys- terious statement: I gather that you have come scheme which is yet in doubt, and that no one knows anything of it but your superior officer, the Bone Senetary, and ?mother member of the Council. I should be the last man in the world to endeavour to lone your Excellency's hands, or to unduly, from mcli,;es of curiosity; endea- your to anticipate your policy, but I would wish to say this much, under those present rircuin- stancos through which we are pulsing, if your 'Excellency can submit to us ally scheme for pub. lie works, and any policy with regard to public questions, it is most desirable that at the earliest possible date your Exoellency should make us acquainted with that scheme, and give us the honour of joining .55th you in deveioping it ro; bringing it to perfeolion. But, at the tiresent time, we have to say that your 'budget speech is barren of any suggestion or any policy. 1 notice that 1n the figures, and in your speech, you make 110 reference to a matter which, some conidepahle time ago, you urged this Court to take up instantly and dealt with. I refer to a proposed new loan. 1 had the honour of sitting on that Ccm- tnittee. We went into it hurriedly, and we approved generally of your proposal. The money market has gone up through change;—ups and downs—since that date; but I fee.: alm3st to-day as if you Lad lost- sight of your own proposal. The money market in-day is in a much easier poo lion tnan for come ;ime pail, and J shall be glad to ?earn I hat. ycu have still that scheme in hand. and that you intend to make the necexsary - — Financial Statement. 474 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. arrangement for raising money for certain pubItc works. Another fact that I notice in the figures before me, is that you propose the sum of £120 for re-seating the House of Keys' chamber. I do not know whether to smile upon that figure, or to frown upon it. For years past we have been tinkering with the lower chamber. We have at in the most inconvenient room in this Island. (Hear, hear.) We have sat upon the most incon• verdent seals, at the most inconvenient benches, and we have been subjected to draughts, and to heat, and the want of ventilation, and the noise from the street ; lo an turdue pressure by the members of the Press for sitting accommodation. which •1138 often placed them in an exceedingly. painful position; meml era of the Bar are also pressed into a narrow space altogether incon• venient for them, and, generally, the chamber below stairs is a most inconvanient drid incommo- dious budding. I have not a good word to nay for it, only that it has been very costly. I see you propose £120 for re-seating that chamber, and the reason I call attention to it is not. the fact that you propose to reseat it, because some. a.e- commodation is very necessary, but you have re- peatedly elated in this Court, and to deputations of the House of Keys, that you intend to build a new chamber, and I do say this, that while exceedingly conservative in this regard over the expenditure of public- money, that, considering the members of the House of Keys give their time and their services to the work of this country, some of them over a long series of years, the least they have a right to expect and demand is they should be properly housed and treated as gentlemen. You make no reference to this and 1 hope you will not allow this matter to lie. Centlemen of the Council may he perfectly satisfied with their accommodation.—("No, no.")— it is for them to say otherwise—but of one thing there can be no mistake, that we are totally dis- satisfied with our aecommodation, aa. without pressing this matter unduly, or speaking at all strongly, I hope your Excellency will, during the current year. see that your promise is given effect to, and that some arrangement is made for a new House of Keys chamber. Another point is the printing of the Legislative debates. I see you put down £220 for 1900 and 1901, as you explained. I do not gather from you what is the new arrangement. You say you have made an arrangement with Mr Brown with regard to printing the

Financial Statement. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 100P. 475

legislative debates. The arrangement in the past has been that the. Government M some way sub- sidises Mr Brown for printing the legislative debates, but members of the Legislature who have asked for copies, as they have been issued from lime to time, have been met, with what seems to me one of the most paltry and contemptible demands ever made. on a Legislature. T do not say this with regard to the printer and publisher, but the ,:onditions have been really ridiculous, that members wanting copies of the debates have to pay a Certain sum, a proportion of their cost. Now if you are going to deal with the matter of the publication of these legislative debates, I do ask, either let us have the copies free, as members of the Legislature, or else keep your hand in your pocket, a rid we will pay the whole cost; but to stand in this contemptible way, and be called upon to pay something towards the cost of the volumea we receive, and which are neces. nary to fit us for our duties in the Legislature, is altogether an unworthy position which members of this Court .should not be asked to take up. In making these few remarks, I do so with Ine hope that though yen will be able lo make a. satisfactory reply, and though I shall be shown .,not to have a, leg to stand upon, I rise more par- ticularly to introduce these q uestions to your notice in the hope that other members of the Legislature will show a. deep and more than pas,- ing interest in this most important matter of finance, and put questions to your Excellency so that we may thoroughly understand the post• tint] we are in to-day.

THE NEW LOAN: SEATING OF TEE KEYS' CRAMER. The Governor: In regard to the hon. member's first. question, .1 oily say that it is not the time yet that I should do what he asks me—that should put it before the Legislature publicly. It is before the Imperial Government at the present time, if riot before her Majesty the Queen, and it. is impossible for me, with due Propriety, to say anything at the present time. As soon as I can say anything, I will communi- cate it to the members of this Logislatoro. have made a proposal which I think will be of very great advantage to everybody in theIsland, and it is impossible for me to say what I can do till I know exactly what the balance available will be. I. have told Members of the Tyn- Tue New Goan.—Seating of the Keys' Chamber. 476 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

wald Court already that on the earliest day I will call the Tynwald Court together and bring forward, if necessary, a supplementary financial statement.. T know pretty well what I intend to do, but, before I say anything about it, of course, I must have money in hand, and know where we are to got funds to deal with matters which I am sure—if I can carry them out as I wish—will be of very great advantage. With regard to a new loan, the hon. member will recollect that the price of money, since the resolution was pissed, has precluded the possi- bility of proceeding further. It is not hung up indefinitely. It is only waiting until we can get the loan in a favourable way. With regard to the Keys' chamber, I quite agree with the lion. member. I think it was always rather bad, but I think it is far worse now, because the new tables and seats are so narrow and so small. I do not know how the Speaker gets into his chair. I could only just. get in, myself. I should think it is rather an uncomfortable place to sit in all day. But those seats and tables were al• tered by the express wish of the House of Keys themselves, and the money that the hon. member spoke of, £120, has already been spent, and spent, not by my advice, but by the wish of the members of the House of Keys. Mr J. B. Cowell : May I suggest that is not an answer to my question? In referring to the £120 for re-seating-the chamber, I. said I thought that might be waste money if we are to have a new chamber. The Governor: I am very anxious to get a new chamber; as the hon. member knows, I have suggested it very often. But I did not waste the money. The money would not have been wasted by the Beats being put in as I suggested. I say I do not like the look of it now. It is rather like the furniture of a doll's house. Mr J. it. Cowell: It is no use putting in new furniture if a new chamber is to be provided. That is the view the Committee took. The Governor: Well, what I proposed to spend would have done for any chamber we proposed to have. The present arrangement has been carried out entirely by members of the House of Kays themselves. Mr .1, B.. Cowell : As a temporary arrangement. The Governor : rou have got permanent

The New Loan, —Sea t,;11g of the Keys' Chamber. TY1\,,VAL3) COl 3R T, May 29, 1900. 477 tables, but they are such es will not do for any new buildings.

LEGISLATIVE DEBATES. The Governor: Now, with regard to the In- sular debates—I did not make this arrangement. It was made long before I came here; and I have made no fresh arrangement with regard to the printing of the debates. As I explained to the Court just now, I have only made an arrangement up to the end of this year—that is to next July, so that our debates now begun may be completed. I explained to the Court that I hope to be able to come to a more satisfactory arrangement and get ,the reports published in a better form. With regard to making presents of the debates to hon. members, I do not know why we should go away from the practice in England. The debates in England are not given to the members—they have to buy Hansard themselves, and it is not a volume that does not cost very much, as the case is here, because it is a very expensive publication. I have got them for all the time I was actively engaged in the House of Commons and the House of Lords, but I had to pay for them myself, and all the members have to do so. A certain proportion of the volumes aro obtained for the public service, and that is so here, a certain number are on the table. I think I have answered the hon. member's questions. Mr .i. R. Cowell: Allow me to say you have not answered my question with regard to the House of Keys. Is the promise you have made with regard to the now ohamber likely to be carried into effect during the current year The Governor: I think the hon. member will perhaps take it as part of what I have already said. It would be extremely wrong for me, before I have sufficient money to carry out the business of the Island in a proper way, that I should make any proposals of this kind. When I can get these financial arrangements settled, I shall be able to make proposals, and when I make the proposals to the Tynwald Court 1 shall take into consideration the new House of Keys. Mr Quinn: I should like to ask if this is to be the only opportunity we shall have of discussing the budget for this year? The Governor: It is not usual to have another debate. If I give a supplementary statement

Legislative Debates. 478 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. then it will be open to discuss questions, Of course the hon. member can bring forward any special motion he wishes. Mr Laughton: I lake it the position we are in now is simply this—your Excellency has agreed to the reasonableness of most. of the statements of the hon. member for Ramsey. You have stated that you are not in a position to make any clear statement of policy and of means until a proposition which you have laid before her Majesty's Government has been dealt with; but you have promised us that. you will at the very earliest opportunity call this Court together, when you are in a position to lay before them something which they have to consider. For my own part, I am quite satisfied with that statement. 1 do not think that we ought to try to press your Excelleney under such circumstances. For instance, with regard to the Deem- stem and the Clerk of the Rolls, you are not in a position, as I gather from you, to say what the scheme will be. The Governor : The hon. member will understand that I cannot honourably divulge it. Mr Daughton: That is the same thing. Your Excellency is not in a. position to disclose what the scheme may end in. Then I think no member will think for a moment of pressing your Excellency in such circumstances, because the pressure would be of no utility, for your Excel- lency could not, of course, divulge that which you are not able honourably to do. Then with reference to the other things—the seats in the House of Keys and other matters that have been alluded to—while they are matters that I think ought to be considered—I have not been long enough in the House of Keys recently to find out the discomfort in these seats, but no doubt, if I continue long enough, I shall—but, at any rate, your answer to me seems satisfactory. You aro considering, or going to consider, the question of erecting a new chamber, and you say, and I think very properly, that the tables and chairs which arc in the present chamber are, I suppose, adaptable to the buildings which will be emoted. We do not want new tables and chairs, wo want a new building—more space for the accommodation of the members, the members of the Bar, the members of the Press, and the general public. I take it that your Excellency is ready to take those matters into consideration as soon as you can. But 1 trust that this House will have an abiding senso of the position of the

Legislative Debates tr.s1WALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 479

money market. At present we are not in the position we were in some time ago, and your Excellency will have a difficult task as Chan- cellor of the Exchequer—for that office you hold as well as that of Governer of the Island—you will have a ticklish task to finance matters to the satisfaction of the Island. I am perfectly willing myself to place perfect confidence and faith in the promises of your Excellency that at the first opportunity we shall be called together to discuss all this when we have full light and further information to look upon these matters.

SCHOOL BUILDING. GRAYM—THE INSULAR MUSEUM. Mr 3. D. °Lucas Before we go on to other business, I would like to ask for further information with reference to the building grants that you spoke of. I understood you to say that if there wore certain building grants passed, and that when the accounts of the various Com- mittees or Boards to which they were due were passed, you would place them on the agenda. I am interested in one grant, and I understand these accounts have been submitted to the Council of Education and have been passed. I would like 4.o ask when your Excellency will look into them, and when you will be prepared to bring the matter on. Then your Excellency made some remark about voting a certain sum of money towards the establishment of a 'museum in Castle Rushen. But your Excellency did not continue those remarks. I understood that your Excellency had purchased, or was prepared to purchase, the elk, and I would like to know what price is supposed to be given for that. With referenoo to the debates in this Legislature, and the remarks which fell from your Excellency as regards Hansard—you say that mombers of Parliament have to buy Han- serd. I am not sere whether Parliament voted a sum us a subsidy for Hansard for publishing those reports or not The Governor: 1 believe that is so. A. certain sum is given to the Hansard publishers, so as to make them secure; but I am not certain st this moment what the sum is. I know, and Mr Story reminds me, that it is a, very large sum that is voted by Parliament, and members have to buy their copies:. except those required for the public service. With regard to the elk, I believe the value of it is supposed to be about £50, en'l

School Building Grants.—The Insular Muse um 480 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

I think myself it is well worth the money. The question will be dealt with when we come to the estimates. With regard to Lhe museum, the money to be spent must be spent on cases and that sort. of thing, and the articles belonging tc, the Island are actually there. I was very strongly- of opinion that it is very important that this Island should not lose antiquities that belong :e it, and we should have a good museum. I think it is being dune in the most economical way pos- sibTe. We have used the old building. I do nOL say it is not as good.

COST OF GOVERNMENT HOUSE. Mr Quire: I would like lo speak now on the cost of repairing Government :House. I observe the rent is £200 a year. I find the cost of re pairing is about. £200 _a, year fur the last few years. I believe a committee was appointed to inquire whether something should be done to provide a new house for the Governor of the Island, instead of going on year by year paying £200 rent and an outlay on repairs of £200. No one can tell where this expenditure will end— it may be £400 next year. I should like to know whether the Committee have made an estimate or report, or when they are likely to do so, so that we may stop this waste of money on an old house every year. The Governor 1 am very gld the hon. member has asked me the question with regard to the Committee. The Committee have never met ut all. With regard to Government House itse:f, I am very fond of it. I do not complain of it, I like the situation; but there is no doubt what ever that the house is not a substantial one, and lately I have had a great. battle royal with an army of rats—attacking roe actually in the pre- sages. (Laughter.) It is not very agreeable, and the worst of it is when I wanted to sleep they were always rattling about. (Renewed laughter.) The same thing happened when Lord Loch was here. It he a great nuisance to have them running about actually in the house in the passages. I must say with regard to Government. House—fond as I am of it—that I think it would he more economical-for the Island if they would purchase the place, if they could, or build, and not always he paying so much a year in repairs to a property which does not belong to the Government.. It is a comfortable house, in a, very good situation. If it could be purchased, I

Cost of Government House. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 481 should advise the Tynwald Court to purchase 4. Then they could improve their own proper:}- and make it substantial, and the money they spend would be spent on their own property, and not MT somebody else's. At present these repair& are large, because the place is not habitable and I do not think you would like the Governor of the Island, who sometimes has the pleasuro of entertaining his friends, to live in a pig-stye where he could hardly give an official diener or anything of that kind, and I don't think the expenditure on this house considering it is not a substantial house, has been excessive. , The Clerk of the Rolls: A committee was appointed short:y before the long vacation. The then Clerk of the Rolls was a member of it There was no formal meeting, but some of the members mei together. His Excellency was very poorly at the time, and expected to go away, and the committee thought it was not a subject we could go into without having consultations and the advice of the Governor, and it was held over. Owing to the Governor's absence, and the Clerk of the Roll' nothing was done. It was thought if there was anything we could do we should do it at once. If I remember aright, the reference took in some three points,—(1) whether the Government. should seek a renewal of the present lease, subject to like obligations to those in such lease; or (2) whether the Government should endeavour to acquire by purchase the pre- mises now held under lease, With, perhaps, additional land adjoining; or (3) whether the Govern- ment hould purchase a new site, and erect thereon suitable buiIdings. Subsequently the Clerk of the Rolls died. I did not know that Mr Clucas intended moving in this matter to.day; hut, before the sitting of the Court, this morning, I mentioned to some of the members of the Council thgt the Committee was disorganised, and (should be made complete, as the subject ought to be taken up at once. The Committee was five in number, but by the death of the aerk of the Rolls, and by the retirement from the Keys or Mr E. H. Christian and Mr Mylrea, 31r Maalland and I are The only eardinuing members. The Governor: I hope, members of the Court will understand I am not making any complaint, but I do not think it i5 wise to spend money the way we do. My own country house in Suffolk does not cost more than about £5 a year, hecaure it is sound and in good order and is

Cost of Government House. 482 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. well huilt. All that is wanted is to put a slate on now and then, and a very little outlay does for my place in England. There must be some- , thing radically wrong about this building to cost SO much as it does. THE FISHERIES. Mr Hutchinson asked the meaning of an item. of £10, expenditure under the Fisheries Ant. He said : I find last year there was nothing spent. I believe at present there is a Committee in existence as to the fisheries in this 'nand. I should like to take this opportunity of drawing attention to the Commission you appointed some time ago, as to the seea fisheries of this Island. We presented a. report SOME) time ago, and, up to now, no steps have been taken in the matter. The Governor: The hon. member has, I think, mixed up two questions. These expenses under the Sea Fisheries Act are put down every year, so that we may have money. It was not spent at all. But the other is the report of the Indus- tries Commission. That report has been made and circulated, but there has no conclusion been come to upon it yet. Mr Hutchinson: As a matter of fact, I took the cpportunity of this grant to draw attention to the report made by the Commission, because con- sidc!rabh3 time and labour have been spent on the report, and we hope to see some fruit of it. Qualtrough : I rise to support the suggestion made by the hon. member for Ramsey, that this House should realise its responsibility and its position and interest with regard to this momen- tous question of the financial statement of the Isle of Man, and make some attempt, if but feeble, to congratulate your Excellency upon the statement that has been laid before the Court. I think we have arrived at a time when we may feel somewhat proud that the finances of the Island have become, in a. healthy rendition. We have got money, which shows that things are in a better state, and that ere long we shall be in a posit/on to spend a little money upon necessary public works. We all know that the increase that is so marked this year will not henceforth appear every year. It must take place only upon such exceptional circumstances as those of the last few mmths. Our interest as members of the lower branch of the Legislature is to guard the expenditure, seeing that we have now an enhanced biome and seeing that. there is a small The Fisheries.

TYNWALD COURT, May 29. 1900. 483

treserve. I think it is incumbent upon every member of this House to see that the outgoing-3 are curtailed. It is a. fact within the recollection of every member of ibis House that the expenditure has never once been curtailed, but has increased from time to time. If that is so, it is probable that any balance on the right side will be absorbed as time goes on. That is the neat paint which must be raised, or our constituent; will be charging us with neglect of duty in not properly husbanding the expenditure, which wit all know wo have no oontrol of. But the time must. some, when the mons',• has been spent, and spent without our control, when new taxation will be required. Tr the money is not spent in the dMection of the best interests and wishes of the House, the time will come when new taxation is required, and the House will then, very likely, vote against new taxation. I have no doubt that is a point whirls your Excellency will have the greatest interest in.

PUBLIC EDUCATION. The following resolution stood on the agenda. paper :- That a. stunt not exceeding £15.000 be applied from the general revenue of Skis Island for the purpose of publio education for the year ending 31st .Vmrch, 1901. The detailed estimate is as follows: — Esti- Eapen‘li- ir_ate. titre, Estimate '99-1900. '99.1900. 19004901, £ a. £ s. d. General grants- 8.875 15...8,658 5 9...Annual grants ...... 8,000 Science & Art grants- 33 0... 110 0...Elementary Schools 30 830 0... 619 0 10...Art Schools ...... 800 1,7.2.1 15 _9,473 16 7 9,630 450 0... 353 5 430 105 0... 57 10 0...Perzions 100 14 0... 14 0 01...Pen3'on to late SeureVy -- 30 0... 33 2 8...0ouncil audits and In- spections 1 35 40 0... 36 7 6...01lico charges ...... 40 30 0... 27 6 8 Trinting, fbvivertiging4c 25 200 0... 201 0 0...Secretary and Auditor's salary 200 5 0... 0 0 0...Arclaitect's expenses 5 5s 180 0 192 10 9 ..intiwirial-gchool. fees 237 10 0... 0 0 0...Legal charges 10 120 0... 114 10 0...At'ed'oe Officers' Salaries 120 4,075 0...3.908 10 5...Fee grants 4,050 47 5... 47 5 0..,11embers' loco 3312 15.045 0...14,493 7 9 14,915 17 Public Education. 484 TYN'SVALD COURT, May 29, 1930. Balance ret'r'n'd to Treasury- 551 12 3 Last yetir's grants un- Elementary School Art grants c 20 0 School of Art grants_ 64 3 15,145 0...15.045 0 0...Total estimate ...... £15,000 0 The Lord Bishop ; I beg to move the resolution on public education which stands in my name. As the figsu•es relating to the riccounts of the past year, and likewise the estimate for the current year, ore in the hands of members. together with explanatory notes, it will not he necessary for me to enlarge on them at any length on this occasion. At the some time, it is desirable that some general remarks should be made, and likewise that I should draw attention to one or two particular items. As a general remark, I think all members will be glad to see that, for the second time, we ;:re asking for a lots sum than the preceding year. Two years ago we asked for £15,060; 11..4 year we asked for £15,045; this year we are asking for £15,000, and I hope this circumstance will be enough to assure the Court, if it needs to be assured on that particular point, that the Council of Education, which is its executive, is endeavouring to -do its work at the lowest possible -expense which is compatible with efficiency. You will notice from the paper that has been circulated that in some ,respects the expenditure last year fell below the estimate, and I think it desirable just to add a few words of explanation in addition to what is made in the explanatory notes, especially as you will see in our estimate for the current year we for the most part revert to the estimate of last year. 'Under head No. I, which concerns annual grants, you will roe we asked for £8,875, and spent only £8,658 ; that is £217, roughly speaking, less. However, the explanation of that circumstance is as follows:— There was a fall in the average attendance of he schools of the Island. It is very difficult to ac- COunt for these was-es which pass over communi- ties with regard to average attendance. All I ran say is it was so. In some localities it might possibly be 'explained, but, generally speaking, it was one of those waves which pass over a community; and, I may add, that at the present time the fhbe is rising again. We are getting a larger member on average attendance than we had last

Public Education TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 485

year. tinder these circumstances, we are asking for a /a:ger amount in the coming year than we actually expended last. year—£8,800. Then have a word to say also with respect to what likewise felts under the first head. You will see we estimated £33 and £830 for Science and Art grants, and that we expended somewhat. less than we estimate, The explanation of that is very quickly given. You will perceive from the explanatory note at the bottom that some of the awards were not received by the Council of Education up to 3lat March, and consequently could not be entered in these accounts; but are accounted and estimated for in the last item of the estimate for the current year, £64, to make up what was not paid on 31st March last. Now, under the second head--inspections under Science and Art Department—we asked for £456. We only expended £353, £97 less. This is accounted for by the fact that certain examinations end drawing inspections were discontinued. And as these inspections are to be continued in a new form, under new regulations, next year, we thought it right to estimate under that head £430 for the current year Now T draw your attention for a moment to the 12th head. Under that 12th head yen find we estimated £4,075, and spent £3,908, or £167 less than our estimate, The explanation is exactly the same as under the first head. The fee grants follow the annual grants, and the average attendance having fallen under the first head, the amount expended under this particular lead of fee grants was less also- Also lust year you will tee there was a slight falling-off nosier several heads which it is beyond the power of anyone who is not a prophet—and I do not claim to he a prophet—exactly to estimate. There ii a failing-off under the k.ead of pensions—(one of the teachers who was receiving a pension died) —office charges, printing, stationery, architects' fees, and legal expenses; on the other hand. there was an increase of councils' charges and industrial schools fees. The net result is, we spent £551 less last year than we estimated. For the ensuing year the rising tide on average attendance leads us to ask for £9,630 under head No. 1, in, place of £9,736, which we asked for last year. Then, again, I have explained that we ask for £430 for Science and Art Department grants. think, it right, too, to ask for £4,050 for fee grants, in view of the rising tide to which I have alluded—in other words, we are asking for

Public Education. 486 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

£15,009, instead of £14,493 expended last year. I shall he glad to answer any questions addressed to me; but I think I have ooverecl the ground, and have given all the information that will be required. Mr Joughin : I have much pleasure in seconding the motion. Mr J. R. Cowell; I hope that in a matter of this importance the vote will not be taken hurriedly. It. is a master affecting. the entire population of the Island and of great public interest, involving very large expenditure. J hope hon. members will lake the opportunity to say what they really feel, as this is about the only occasion in the year when educational and other de- partmental work comes before us in an informal way for clisettion. I only rise to ask his_ Lord- s-hip if, in view of the recommendations which think have been made more than once, the Coum tilhave adopted any system of lectures, especially with regard to agricultural matters, or mechanics, by a system of peripatetic teadiers, who will endeavour, with regard to agriculture in particular, to impress upon the minds of youths and maidens various matters in couneclion with agriculture of a more advanced character than what is supposed to be imparted in the ordinary elementary schools.. I was a member, many years ago, of one of those Commissions on the Island which in- quired into this branch of the subjent, together with others. and the impression then was; and it is very firmly implanted in ray mind, that there is something very much lacking in our system as 'between the elementary school and the time when men and maidens have to enter into the battle of life. and it appears to me that if by eye and hand and demonstration we can do something to assist the rising generation, especially the agricultural portion of them with regard to agricultural matters, very valuable results would follow. It is a lamentable fact that the Island is not holding its own with regard lo some de- partments of agricultural work. Butter, in some cases, is a disgrace to our country. We do not conceive it possible to organise any united method of dealing with our milk and butter such. as is common on the other side and in other countries, and largely used in Canada, -America, and the Colonies---a system of factory work by which not only excellent material is brought out, but pro duce of a steady quality at a steady price, increasing the financial resources of the people.

Public Education. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 487

I know that., some years ago, a lady came over to the Island, and did us most valuable service. I know, too, that in a few cases that good 1.1. mains to this day, and I am sorry to see the work has not been continued. If the Department would take up the work in this direction, and • make it popular, very great good would result.

EDUCATION IN RAMSEY. The Attorney-General: I quite agree with the remarks which have fallen from the-last speaker, that it would be a very lamentable thing if this vote were to he passed over as a. matter of course. It• is a very large expenditure of our public revenue, and I think the House and country wi desire to be satisfied that the money is being spent to the best advantage, and also that we are making an attempt at progress in educational matters, that we are not allowing ourselves to look behind. I eaanot say that I have derived any comfort whatever from the statement of his Lordship, that the amount asked for this year is less than was the amount asked for last year. The expenditure increases automatically with efficiency, and if the amount .required at the hands of the Court is less, then it signifies a. decrease in efficiency in some department of educational work. It means either loss arising in the way of ordinary annual grants or less regularity of attendance, this reducing the average which is provided for by the grant- However, the amount is so small in this instance that, it need not unduly disturb the oonfideace of the Court in the work of the Board; but certainly the matter of attendance in the Isle of Man is in the highest degree unsatisfactory, and why, after steadily increasing for years, it should now sud- denly decrease, it. is hard to gauge. 7 find that from 1893, when the average attendance was 6,900, it went up in 1898 to 8,174, whilst in 1899, the hist year for which reports are before the Court, the average attendance was only 8,078. There are some part,-; of the Island very much more cul- pable in the matter than others, and I am certainly glad to seize the first opportunity that has occurred to me of pointing out the fact that certain parts of the Island ehow a. figure which compared with others is most remarkable. How is it, for instance, that the town of Ramsey should (tenuity the unenviable position of being at the very 'bottom of the list in the matter of percentage of attendance? It certainly is most

Education in Ramsey. 4-88 1 'k'N WALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

remarkable that a town district should occupy- that position. i confess to my astonishment that for the year with which we are dealing, the percentage in Ramsey only reached 72.3, that is to say, out of over 100 children on the registers. there were 28 children on the average, absent every time the school was open. Now, I know the hon. member for Ramsey will cordially agree wi:h me in the disastrous consequences of ouch a slate of th:ngs as that.. (Hear, hear.) Acd who stands at the head of the list? The country district of Arbory, where the average attendance reached the exteedingly high figure of 83.9. (Hear, hear.) The sta•.e of things in Ramsey is even worse than at first sight appears. I find that ia the National School the percentage of attendance is under 70-59.72. In the infant school of th', National Schools it falls to 62.1. Now, I know it may or.•ur to the minds of many that that :e not remarkable in the sass of an infant school where there are so many children of an rise principally under five years, with respect to whom attendance cannot or enforced; but how does it compare with the state of things in other parts of the Island? 1 find that the Fame irregularity is not conspicuous in any of the infants. schools in Douglas. I find that the schools resin the following percentages: 84.5, 83. 87, 88, 39, 52, and Lower Foxdale infants' school 95.7, and there are many others• such as 85, 85, 88, an] so forth. So that there is nothing in the condition of infants' schools which affords an adequate explanation of the abnormally low standard which has been reached in Ramsey. I trust that. the Chairman of the Council, to whom I bare given notice of the fact that 1 would draw attention to the subject., will be able to give this Court some sort of explanation of the condition of things prevailing in that town, and 1 do say this: i hat it ought to be remedied, and that a town such as Ramsey has no right to be bring:ng up its yotith, those who are to form the next generation of the citizens of this Island, under such conditions as those. When they have (rein 28 in 30 chilacn absent every time the school opens it amounts to a loss of something like one- third of their total school life. It is worse than that: it is continumis, monthly, yearly loss. it •is irregularity width poisons the whole school lira from liegina"ns to cad. renders their education nt every Stage inefficient mid inadequate. because those who are acquainted with the manage-

Education in Ramsey. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 489 meat of schools know that, with regard to irregu- lar children, it is impossible to make any regular progress. It would be far better to leave school than attend irregularly. -ft prevents the efficiency of the whole school, because the teacher is perpetually having to go back stages in the process of education in order to bring up to the same level the hackward children who have become backward by constant irregularity. I need not enlarge upon a matter which is so obvious to all the managers of schools, that this question of irregularity defeats the efforts of the teachers, renders unremunerative the large expenditure of MO nen and defeats the efforts of those who are endeavouring to promote the educational interests of the country. There are ways and means of dealing with a local body if it does not do its duty in this respect. I run not saying now where the blame lies, but pointing out the state of things which exists, If, on inquiry, it is found that it is duo lo inattention to business, to failure .to discharge their duty by those who are responsible for the state of things, then there are methods provided in the Education Act of 1894 by which the proper remedy can be applied and a different state of things brought iulo existence. Now I am sorry that I should -have to, as it were, appear to be making an attack upon a particular district in the Island, and I only hope that the remarks which I make can be answered. But there is another matter in the F0111-0 locality which calls for observation, and it is with regard to school accommodation. From my own personal experience I can say that the school accommodation is most inadequate, (Hear, hear.) I find that the school accommodation is a standing dis,Arlice to the diArict, and although I ant pleased to hear that the Wesleyan body are about to expand a considerable sum of money, and make their school a very much more efficient cue in every way, even when this is done the accommodaticin will be insufficient, and, to a largo degrae, unsuitable. The School Board of BaniseY seems to have been impressed with the consciousness of this idea many years ago, because I find, upon inquiry at the office of the Council of Education, that as far back as 1897 the School Board of that town, of its own motion, not under any pressure on the part of the Council, but of their own voluntary act, applied to the Council and asked for permission to purchase a site in order that they might erect thereon more Board School accommodation, and, after satisfying the Education in Ramsey. 490 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

Council that there was necessity for further buildings in Ramsey, obtained the consent of the Coun- cil to the purcimse. And, more than that, in May, 1898, they obtained the approval of the Council of..Education to the borrowing of the sum of £1,200 for the payment of the purchase money of this site. The Council very naturally asked for some kind of promise or undertaking on the part of the Board that they would, within a rea- sellable period of time, devote this site to the pur- prse for which it was purchased. The School Board gave that undertaking, and promised that during the tenure of office of the then Board. which expired about two years afterwards. they would use their utmost efforts to carry out the reheme. The idea at the time was to provide a building which could be utilised also for the purposes, somewhat, of a- higher grade of education, which was so urgently needed in Ramsey at that time. I am informed now that, from that day to Ibis, no further step whatever has been taken in the matter of carrying out the promise which was then made to the Council of Education, or in any other way providing accommodation in the town of Ramsey. This is a state of circumstances call- ing for explanation. I cannot understand how it is that the local School Board can have pur- •haaed land, borrowed the money for the payment, of the purchase money, and should then, for a period of three years, say nothing 3110113 11,11nUt it, cud at the same time, present to the public the remarkable fact that they are at the very loot of the list in regard to efficiency in the matter of school alttendarice. If these remarks which I venture to make with regard to the state of things in Ramsey lead to any redrmi, I shall congratulate myself on having taken this course, I would like to point out that we are entering now upon an entirely new phase of education in this country. Owing Lu the manner in which our destinies are united to those of the larger country in the matin.r of education by the incorporation of the - Code, any advance of movement which takes place in Great Britain automatically takes place here, and so there is no danger• that we mn fall behind to any very great degree M the matter of ordinary education. But I. see a new era has been entered upon. The whole system of Govern- merit grants is changed this year, and a system bas now been adopted by the Council of Eduea- {ion in England for pmviding- what are called "nigher elementary schools." They are not higher grade schools, but something between the ordinary

Education in Ramsey. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 491 elementary school and the higher grade school, which generally includes an organised science school. They are higher elementary schools, and this scheme supplies tho answer to the question which was so aptly put by the hon. member for Ramsey, or rather, supplies the answer to the difficulty which he put, and that is the enormous gap between the education provided in the ordi- itary Achnel, and the standard of proficiency which is required by young men and young women when they commence the practical work of life. The very ohjeet of that is, instead of talking vaguely about "ladder systems" to enable School Boards to provide themselves with this very advanced elementary education, so that the children may be carried on under the same system to the more advanced stages, remaining at school to a slightly increased age, such as 15 or so, and in that way equipping them more suitably for the different pursuits in life they may have to follow. There are a great many matters in the last report issued by the Council of Education which are exceedingly tempting, but time, of course, would net admit of anything like an exhaustive examina- tion. There are one or two, however, which are so salient in character that it is almost impossible to pass them by unnoticed, and one is this: that attention in this report is frequently called to the fact that in the Isle of Man we are most lament- ably behind in the matter of attendanoe at infants' schools, although here we have a complete compulsory system. Of course, you cannot oom- pal very young children to come gave distances, het we have here a universal system of compul- sion, and not as in England, whore by-laws regu late the matter differently in different parts of the country. Notwithstanding that I find it pointed out in this report that whilst. in England the percentage of children under seven years of age far 1898 was 34.42, in the Tsle of lkTan it is only 22.13. Now you sec there we are failing in the lsle of 'Man at the very foundation of the whole matter, bemuse. the time which is lost in the early years is really incapable of subsequent recovery. We all know that in the towns it is the children who are brought early under diseip- Unary influences of education, who are the beet educated, and the most successful scholars in the school in after life, and that the greatest difficulty is experienced with those who are running about idle, without care and control, during the early years of their life. So that it is in the

Education in _Ramsey. 492 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

highest degree essential that we should remedy that defect in the Isle of Man with regard to the attendance of children under seven years of age, and the Council of Education points out the reason, largely, for this, and it is to he found in the • inadequate prevision that is made in many districts in the matter of infant accommodation. It is suggested in the report that.if districts would provide better ae.eommodation for infants—that is, room for them alone, pay more attention to the warming aid ventilation of the room and so forth—the infants would be attracted; and that has been found to bn the case where large infanta' schools are open in Douglas—in Murray's-road and Hanover-street, where these rooms are crowded, and crowded, too, with children against whom attendance could not be enforced. That is a matter which deserves earnest attention, and the Tale of Man can hardly be proud of itself in matters of education as long as there is such a. conspicuous disparity as that to our disadvantage between our position and that. of England. I find it stated on page 67 of the report that we have fully 1,00a children less on the registers than the Education Department, judging by ordinary averages, consider we ought to have. Now, I have often been found in the rank of eulogists of education in the Isle of Man, and I will not unsay anything I have ever said, In some mat: ten; we have advanced with enormous strides, and Owed education in a. position it has never 0.ecupied in the previous history of this Island, aed, in a large measure, we are far better equipped than many parts of England are, but we must not, while congratulnting ourselves upon our success and advance_:, shut our eyes to the great defects for which we are also responsible. I think no set of people are more foolish or more to he avoided in public life than those who are ever looking backward upon what they have done before, and felicitating themselves that they are much better than people elsewhere. I think it a far more useful policy to be examining one- self closely, trying to ascertain where defects arc, and trying to apply remedies. In this matter of the number on the registers we have conspicu- ously failed, and until we get the number on the registers up to a fair standard, so that we may compare favourably with England, we cannot fairly congratulate ourselves on any great amount of success. I throw out these snggcetione at this important juncture, when we are about to vote

Education in Ramsey. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 493 this money, and I trust that it is money we shall never vote without. haying considerable discussion upon it, i. am not criticising adversely, in general sense, the policy of the Council of Educa- tion. I think they have done admirable work, and I think they are animated by true zeal for Cho eau.% of education. I know whenever, in my capacity as member of a School Board, I have had to approach them, I have found there was but cne object, one desire, and one spirit by which they were animated and impelled, and that was to advance to the very utmost the interests of public education in this island, and we have also, I think. to recognise the industry of the Secretary of the Commil„ Mr Garside, which is shown in the most admirable detailed report which he now enables the Chairman of the Council to lay Ira- fore this Ootzt. Mr Cowley: On the general question, I en- steree every word that has fallen from the learned Attorney-General. The most desirable thing that the Court can consider is to have the -very best education that can be provided for young People. That sentiment and that argument have pleaded over and over again as a member of the management of one of tho denominational schools of Ramsey. But I at once disclaim as a member of that management any blame for the lagging in average attendance which is shown by the report. We lament it at Ramsey, and it is not the fault of the Wesleyan denominational school at Ramsey that we have not a better percentage. It is well known, I think, to every member of this Court that where a denominational school exists in a district, it is not the fault of the managers of that school that there is not a larger average attendance. Un- fortunately at Ramsey there has been a very serious diffbirenee of opinion arising between us as managers of the denominational school and as members of the School Board. But at almost every meeting of managers we have had month after month. it has been my constant inquiry at thooe meetings—" How is it that our average attendance is so low?" We have no power as managers to enforce attendance. It rests with other bodies purely and entirely. We have: written to the responsible bodies time after time, but I am not satisfied and never. have been satisfied, and I endorse entirely what the Attorney-General has said as to the lamentable loss it must be to the young children that on an average something like 28 per sent. of children

Education in Ramsey. 494 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

must he absent from school each day it is open. It is a downright injury to the children and an injury to the school, bemuse it is impossible for the teachers, as I have pointed out time after lime at our meetings, to give the true value of edu• cation even in the schools when a very large number of children are constantly absent. I do hope that the ventilation of this subject to-day will lead to better results. I endorse what has fallen from the lion, member for Ramsey as to the desirability of improving still further the system of higher elementary education such as has been suggested. That is a decided want with us at Ramsey. Wo are decidedly in favour of higher secondary elementary education for Ram- sey and district, and I do trust that something will be done in that direction in the near future. Mr Qualtrough: I have a question or two to ask his Lordship—the question of salaries of teachers and the appointment of teachers in schools. I find in practice that where there is a good teacher in a country district, he is often tempted to leave the district by a higher salary offered him, perhaps, in a neighbouring town, so that rich centres have all the advantage in obtaining the best men. I with to ask if the Council of Education will endeavour to create a uniformity of salary with regard to teachers in Board Schools? One other point has attracted my attention as a member of a School Board, and that is that according to the present law no teacher can be appointed without. the consent. of the Board, just as no teacher can be dismissed without the consent of the Board. I do not want to speak of the, dismissal, but of the appointment. In the case of vacancies that transpire when the Board have advertised for applications, it is frequently required that an- swers should he given to those applications almost instantly—the applicants say they will take the first suitable appointment that is at hand. In regard to this a Board in the Isle of Man can never under any circumstances engage a teacher until the sanction of the Council of Education is obtained, and that Council meets but once a month. The consequence often is that good men are lost. They hare gone elsewhere, simply because they could not be appointed, failing the reply of the Board. I think the Council, on behalf of the School Boards, might undertake some little change in the law which would get over the difficulty, and which would work much more harmoniously for the

Education in Ramsey. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 495

School Boards and the Council as well. I also think the uniformity of salaries is most requisite in the Isle of Man, and I would strongly urge it. Mr 3. R., Cowell: May I make a few observa- tions with regard to what the Attorney-General has said? For the first time, I think, in my public) career, the town I represent has been attacked—wing that word in its proper sense-- and very strongly attacked—and I have no defence. I shall not make any defence, because I do not know of any, and I can only exceedingly regret that, so far as my humble judgment. goes, what the learned Attorney-General has staled to-day with regard to the attendance in Ramsey, or the want of attendance, and the insufficiency of the accommodation and its character, in my opinion is strictly and literally true. I deeply regret it, and I look to his Lord- ship and the Council of Education in this Island to remedy that most unfortunate state of things. Mr Laughton : I look upon this discussion as showing it grand critical stage for the welfare of the Isla of Man, not only with reference to the education of the children, but with reference to the people of this Island and their general prosperity. When this Education Bill was first brought in by his late Excellency, we were assured, if I remember rightly, that it would only cost the revenue some £3,000 or £4,000, and the 'House of Keys, who can swallow any. thing sometimes, believed it.. I did not, but they did. And what is the fact? That from £3,000 or £4,000 a year it has now got to £15,000, and we have been told by the Attorney-General that he hopes it will increase. (Bear, hear.) I am quite satisfied the learned Attorney-General will say "Hear, hear 1" because if ho has a fad, or if any matt has a fad, the Attorney-General has it upon the question of education. There- fore, I should give him up in despair. I will not try to convert him, because I think he will he a pervert to the end of time. But he sad-. the children must he educated. I join hands with him and with everybody that. says they ought. But, then, are we not to have come mercy on the taxpayers? and the people of the Island, who have hard work to pay the present rates. I find that £15,000 is the present vote, and his Lordship told us the tide was flowing. The Lord Bishop: I said the tide of average

Education in ltarnssy. 496 TYNWALD COURT, May 20, 1900. attendance was rising again, and that it had been sinking. Mr Laughton : Very good—that is what I say. The average attendance is rising, and the revenue has to pay for it. Therefore, I say, we are more likely to have to give more than £15,000, and I should not he at all surprised if, in the course of four or five years, it came to £20,000. The more children that attend, the more the Insular Government has to pay fur the attendance—that is to say, we have to pay for the increased attendance. Then we are told by the learned Attorney-General that really it is a great advantage, and he blames everybody that does not increase the attendance. Very well, if the country is prepared to pay an immense increase, for this little Island to pay more than £15,000 a year, it is for them r/ri say and decide. But I think when they thoroughly understand what the point is before them, they will question very seriously whether they are not paying too much. I will call your attention to what was the state of the school law in the time of Bishop Wilson, who was a most wise legislator, It will surprise many to know that long before Eagle-MI we had a compulsory Education 13i1I; but a much better one than this, and a more reasonable one. I am going to read from the Act passed by the Legislature in 1703:- 9. For the promoting. of religion, learning, and good manners, all persons shall be obliged to scud their children, as soon as they are cap- alile of reieeiaing 'instruction„ to some petty school. and to continue them there until] the said children can read English distinctly, unless the parents give a just cause to excuse them- mires, approved of by the Ordinary in open Court: and that such persons who shall neeect serAng theft children to he so taught shall iiipon a presentment made thereof by the minister, churchwarden's. or Chapter Quest) he fined in one shilling 117 Quarter to the use of the schtiolineistur, who may refuse to teach. those children who do not come constantly to school (unless for such canees as shall be ap- 3)50yeid of by the min'ister of the parish). and their retreats slush be fined as rf they did altogether ref LeSe to send them to sehoote. 11. Notwithstanding where the parents or re- lations aura poor, and not able to nay ass affore- said. and this be ourtifyed by the minister anal churchwardens of the Trar.6/1 to the Orid:vary. such children are to be taught gratis_. That is the law I wish to see established in this Island. Is it fair that men who are earning something like £1,000 a your should send their children to these schools, and the island has to pay the cost.? I cannot give names, but I have no doubt there are many of them known to

Education in IWnsey, TYNWALD COURT, .May 29, 1900. 497 members of this House. I agree that education ought to he given everywhere, and that children should be well taught. I agree they ought to be made to go to school unless for some sufficient reason. But if parents or guardians are able to educate their children without putting them on the parish, I think there ought to be power given to somebody to make them pay. I know that this will strike this House with some degree of surprise, because, probably, to most of them it is a novel thing. Some of them do not know there was a law in the Isle. of Man, but it. is that law of 1703 which I should like to see established in 1900. May I ask hen. members who oppose, where is the reasonableness of making poor ratepayers pay for the education of children of a man who makes £1,000 a year? But by these means you are raising taxes on the country that will go up as the tide is rising. It may be passed over to-day without remark, but it will not be passed over in the country when the farmers and other ratepayers know what the facts are. Will anybody get up and tell me that it is unreasonable to ask a man who earns £1,000 a year to pay for the education of his children? Islet it very unreasonable to say that the poor ratepayers have to pay for it? I put it to your Excellency and this honourable Court that something ought. to 1N3 dune with reference to that. I do not wish to interfere with the Aitorney-General's fad. Let him ride his hobby to the extreme, but I do feel that the ratepayers, the farmers, and the people who are already taxed should also pay this. There are lots of things we want doing in this Island. We want the highroads mending or making; we want' considerable impilovements to our harbours; we want a variety of things we cannot have, simply because the cry is we have no revenue, we cannot afford At. Yat you can afford to pay for the education of the children of a man who has a thousand a year and up- wards, and you cannot afford that which is for the benefit of the ratepayers of the Island. I state what I feel and have long felt. This question has been before me for many years, but the time has now come to have it placed before the Legislature, and let the Legislature do as they think right. I have satisfied my conscience, as far as I can, in bringing it. bekre the Tynwald Court. NIT Kerruish: I um very pleased that his Honour the Attorney-General has entered so Education in Itan;soy. 498 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

largely into this matter of the insufficiency of the schools in Ramsey. I had the privilege three years last fall of being elected a member of the Ramsey School Committee, and I suppose some of the blame falls upon my shoulders. When I entered upon my duties, I believe I never lost one meeting of the Rrimsey Committee. about the first meeting of the new Committee, in the autumn of 1896, there was an intimation from the then Council of Education to the School Committ-ee of Ramsey, informing them that there was a lack of accommodation in the schools of Ramsey for a given number of children. The matter was considered at several meetings, and it was finally decided that a letter be forwarded to the Board that we were dealing with the subject, and that a committee had been appointed to inquire as to a site or inquire into accommodation. Time went on; a site was finally selected, and a committee was appointed to interview the Council and obtain their sanction to the erection of a school to meet the requirements. The ap proval of the Board was obtained by the local committee for the purchase of the land. The ratepayers of the town of Ramsey, 'hearing wh.st was in the wind, called public meetings. Never in the history of Ramsey slid meetings continue for such a. long period as did the meetings over the consideration of the school question. I be• lieve that for seven nights in succession the 0.11 Cross Hall w-a.s crowded with people discussing the subject whether the School Committee was to go on with the erection of a school, or whether the voluntary schools were to continue. The conclusion of the matter was that the ratepayers of Ramsey, in public meeting assembled, approval of the purchase of a site for the erection of schools at some. future period for the requirements of the town of Ramsey, but they refusal to sanction the erection of schools. The School Committee then, having obtained a definite opinion from the ratepayers of the town in whose interests they were fiuppuF ed to act, did not go any further in the matter. But, in order to decide for themsolvec—having been informed by the Council of Education that there was a deficiency in the accommodation for the school Jia trio., of Ramsey—they went to the expense _of obtaining a complete census of all the children of school age in the town of Ramsey, and, having obtained the definite number of children of school age, they found that in the several echools of

Education in Ramsey, TYNWALD COURT May 29, 1900. 499 the town of Ramsey there was ample neeomnio- dation for all the children of school age in the town. Whether the accommodation afforded in the town of Ramsey is suitable or not, I do not say. Some of the schools may be 100 years old. But, then, the School Committee have no blame attaching to them on the matter. They were willing to go forward Their masters---the ratepayers of the town of Ramsey—informed them they were opposed to any money being expended for the erection of schools, and if the requirements of the population are not met, it is kr the Council of Education to say that accommo• dation must be provided. In regard to the matter of attendance, there is a strong and grow- ing feeling that, inasmuch as the revenue of this Island provides for the education of children, and that every man's child should be taught free, my opinion La, and my experience is—having sat at every meeting of the Board—that one cause for the peer attendance in the town of Ramsey' because the children do not enjoy the privileges enjoyed by children in other parts, of free education. They have not free education in the Wes. leyan Eel oola ; they have to pay fees in all tho schools, they have to pay for their books, 21-k3 so forth. That is the one drawback in deterring the children from attending, and as an illustration, in the neighbcurhood of the town of Ram- sey there is the Dhoor school, beyond the limits of the district where children attend for free education. Out of the lown of Ramsey nearly 100 children go to the Dhoor in order to partici- pate in free education. Mr Olucas: I have to support strongly the proposition on the agenda respecting this £15,000 to be devoted to education in this Island. Though there may be something to regret respecting the attendance, as put forth by the learned Attorney- General, we have a great deal to be thankful for in the educational attainments that have been arrived at in this Is'.and, and it would be a sorry day for this Island if we ever had to record that day which is looked forward to by the learned member for Peel. hope that day will newr dawn over the Isle of Man. (Rear, hear.) [Mr J. R. Cowell and Mr Laughton left tue Court..] The Lord Bishop : I will reply as briefly as possible to the questions put to me. I am sorry the hon. member for Ramsey has left his place, because I wish, in the first instance, to oddre.J6

Education in Ramsey. 500 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

myself to the remarks he addressed to me. Fin asked me whether the Council of Education were taking into consideration the desirability of sending out peripatetic teachers to deliver lecture.; on agriculture and other similar subjects. J. must say here that the Council of Education have been considerably disappointed with the course of public events h8 regards the reports of the various Commissions over which I have had the honour to preside during the past few years. I hope your Excellency will not think I am casting any blame upon anybody ; but whit I must say is this—that nearly all, the various Commissions referred to the desirability of special instruction being given with regard to those questions to which the hon. member has alluded. But no notice has been taken of these reports. I am not blaming anybody. I am simply stating as e matter of feet that, though I have presided over Commissions on secondary education, the fisheries question, and that which sat to take up the question of agriculture, and that two at least of these Commissions have recommended that lecturers should be brought over to this Island, those re. ports are at present pigeon-holed and no notice is taken of them. The Council of Education have been hoping that some action would be taken with. reference to those important reports, and, until this is taken, I do not think it is very likely we shall be slie to do anything more than the Education Act of 1893 enables its to do. The hon. member will recollect that when Miss Maid- ment was brought over, in 1894, to give lectures with regard to butter-making, we had to go to the Tynwald Court for that purpose, and you will find our recent reports urged that the Council of Education should ,have power given to them to arrange for these lecturers without having come in every case to the Legislature. Until you put the Council of Education in a position that they can deal with those things, we can only urge the Legislature to act: but the hon. mem ber for Ramsey may feel confident that the matter of ne.tion on the reports will not be allowed to drop. The learned Attor- ney-General, I think, a little misunder stood a remark I made in proposing this vote of £15,000 for the current year. I think ho was under the impression that I held that the smallsr the anickint asked for the greater was the subject for congratulation for this Court. Remarks have been made to the effect that the Education in Ramsey, TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 501

Council of Education were spending money in a manner for which they are possibly to blame, and they were net as careful with respect to economy as they might be t and-, therefore, when I referred to the fact that we were asking slightly lees this year than the two preceding years, I simply meant to infer that I hoped hon. members would see that we were not spending more than was corn. patible with efficiency. Now, I want to draw attention to the more important question at Ramsey, on which the learned Attorney-General spoke. I can only ;truly assure him and other members, that the educational condition of Ram- sey has occupied the attention of the Council of Education for several years past, and we have been extremely anxious about it. Nothing could be more unsatisfactory, generally speaking, than the state of education there. I hardly know which point to take up first, but I think 1 deal first with the question of unsatisfacior•: :•t- iendanee at school. Though, as the hemi. .of a department, I feel considerable delicacy in speaking of those who are the ter. rants of the Board. yet I think I am obliged to say that 1 think the chief part of the blame rets on the Board at Ramsey ;or ctit. sufficiently enforcing the attendance. They have got their attendance-officer, and it is for them to say—" You must do your duty." cannot quite agree with my friend, the member for Ayre, when lie said the managers could do nothing. We are iron casting any blame upon the managers of the Wesleyan schools, but 1 a little differ from him when he says it is a matter for as School Board only, and not for ihe managers. T congratulate the managers of the Wesleyan schools with all my heart on the course they have taken of late. It has given the greatest pa-Able gratification to the Council that they have done so much. But the managers can draw the attention of the enforcing-officer io non-attandanoc ; the managers can send teachers to the parents, and urge that the teachers should visit the parents, and if those things are done, I have no doubt the attendance will largely improve. But I am obliged to Fay that the School Board of Ramsay has not of late. done what we expected, nor is it enforcing attendance through its officials as it ought to do. I wish to say that, some time ago, feeling so strongly that better attendance should be enforced, that We altered the spheres which

Education in Ramsey. 592 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1906.

we assigned to the attendance-officers. The officer at Ramsey- used to be appointed by the Council, and he had a very much larger district than at present to deal with. But there was an attendance-officer appointed a short time ago for Ramsey itself, and likewise another officer was appointed for azure and the other parishes in that district. The attendance-officer at. Ramsey is no longer appointed by the Council of Education ; he is appointed by the Board at Ramsey, he is their own rervaut, and it is for them to deal with him. Another consideration I must mention with regard to the state of affairs at Ramsey is this. The proposals of the Ramsey Board, which the hon, member for Galli Las alluded to, came under the attention of the Council in 1897, and we were certainly in hopes that the Board there was at last about to take steps which would largely remedy these evils of which the Attorney-General has complained. Though the Attorney-General has said there arc methods pointed. nut in the Edu- cation Acts, for remedying this non-attendance, yet 1 think you wilL all foci with me that it is better not to take harsh measures when you think that, by patiently waiting for the carrying out of the plans before you, they will be remedied. Well, that School Board came to us of their own accord, arid, I might almost say, un- expectedly, because when I took the chair at the Commission. on Secondary Education, in the summer of that year, they held out no hopes whatever of being able to do anything. But they came to us in October, and proposed that we should give our sanction to the purchase of this piece of land to which the Attorney-General has referred. We said: "We will not give our sanction unless you arc prepared to build upon it," and an undertaking to build was given. The hon, member for Garff has told us that meeting after meeting was subsequently held in Ramsey, and 'the ratepayers, having met seven nights in succession, came to the conclusion that, though they approved of the purchase of a LIC3 they did not approve of the CTe;:tion of a building thereon. I must submit with all respect ti, the ratepayers of Ramsey, that that seems a very strange conclusion. ft seems very much like as if this Court had determined to buy a railway and run no trains upon it. What is the use of purchasing a site in the middle if Ramsey to remedy difficultieswhich prevail, and •

Education in Ramsay. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 503 not putting a, school upon it? However, that is the position we are in, So things went on. There have been a great many public meetings at Ramsey since then, and the ratepayers have come lo the conclusion at last that they wanted is site, a.nd• wanted a building koo. In en interview which the Council had with the new Board this month, they received the assurance that. they would take the matter into consideration. have said that the Council hesitated to take any strong steps. Furthermore, I should like to say we held our hands from taking strong steps, because we know there was an important alteration of the Wesleyan schools proposed, and the managers gave us the assurance—probably the hon. member for Rainsey will be aware of it— that when the holidays were over, and this building was completed, this matter of attendance have their attention. The state of the National School also is highly satisfactory. The Grammar School building was taken temporarily as an infants' school, and we agreed to that but :t was only to be a temporary thing, and by no means a permanent one. These are some of the considerations which have restrained the Council front taking that strong action which perhaps it was their duty to take. Nevertheless, I can assure the Attorney-General that, generally speaking, we have the matter before us, end we shall continue to have the matter before us, and we are just as anxious as he is that the state of things in Ramsey shall be remedied. The hon. member for Rushen asks: "Does the Comma of Education make any arrangements to institute a uniformity in the salaries of teachers in this Isle? I am net quite sure whether I rightly understood this question, Ile does not rarely propose that the teacher of a country school should receive the same salary as the head teachers of large schools in this town? _Does he mean that salaries ehouild be ine same, having regard to the number of children in the school? Mr Qualtrough: I showed my question by the illustration I gave. Where there is a good teacher in a country district, who is doing valuable work, he is tempted out of That work by a richer district offering a larger salary perhaps for doing no more work, That is very unfair. Is there ;43 be uniformity? The Lord Bishop: This is only what happens in every profession ; but T can only say that the matter has not been under the attention of the

Education in Ramsey. 50i. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

Council of Education. If the hon. member desires it should be, perhaps he will lay some scheme before us for our careful oonsideration. The lion, member asks further : "In the appoint. "ment of teachers, where the cors-mt, of the Coun- "cn is necessary, could not a more simple opera. tion of obtaining the necessary consent, by "making some small changes in the Aet regukiting "the appointments, be made.'' Well, it is open to the hon. mcmher to move a slight, alteration of the Edueation Act, but I cannot quite agree with him that it is needed. I gather from him that gre.it difficulty is experienced, inasmuch as the Council only meet one?, a month but, over and over again, since I have had the honour of being Chairman of the Council we have been asked, ex post facto, to sanction appointments which have been made previously. Every School Committee knows that if, through any premuro of circumstances, it is desirable to fill up is post, the Chairman of the Board can make a provisional agreement till the Board next. meets. I cannot conceive there is any hardship, but, having mentioned the point., if the hon. member desires to make any amendment of the law, he can propose it and the matter will be under the consideration of the Legislature. I have only, lastly, to reply to the hen. member for Peel, who, I regret to see, has left. the Court. Ile told us what the Governor of the day--1 think Lord Loch— said when the Edniat,:cn Act was introduced, in the year 1871. It is very possible that the Governor of that day may hare said, generally speaking. "I think the expense of education in this Island will not exceed £3,000 a year." It was generally understood when Mr Foster introduced his Act in England that the rate, would not exceed 3d. in the £. But what has been done since? I must press this on the attention of the Court. What has been done since is your own act and deed. You thought. a desirable, in the matter of education, to go on all fours with England. You did not think it desirable that the children of the Isle of Man theuld he kept in a condition of ignorance which would put: them at a great disadvantage as compared with English children. And if you will allow .me to ray so. I think you 'have done wisely in coming to this determination. You your- selves :have increased, the £3.000 a year of which Lord Loch spoke, and had you done otherwise I

Education in Itsmsey, TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 505

might. well taunt• you that, while others were making desirable progress, you were standing still. But you, are making progress, and you see things that are required for educational pro- greets now more clearly than you saw them in the years gone by. Then, with reference to what was add of the children of the Isle of Man being educated at great expense, I should like to point out to you that while we are educating our children at much Less cost in the Isle of Man than they are educated for in England, they are actually gaining more in the shape of grants. In the Isle of Man we spent, in 1899, £2 4s 8d (I leave out fraptions,) on the education of every child in the Board Schools, and we educate our children in the Voluntary Schools at a cost of £1 lOs In England and Wales it. cost £2 13s. 9d. to educate the ultildren in the .Board Schools, and Le 2s. gd. in the Voluntary Schools. (Hear, hear.) When you come to contrast results, you find that in the Board Schools our children wore earning £1 ls. lOd. against £1 Os. 3d. in England and Wales; and, its tho Voluntary Schools, £1 Os. 5d. as against 19s. 7d. aoress the water. (Hear, hear.) Now, I think, under those circumstances, it is a pity we should entirely ocmfine ourselves to depressing, views of matters educational in the Isle of Mau. 1 do not say we are perfeei—nothin; human is—but I think, on the whole, the education in the Island is proceeding satisfactorily. I think my lion- and :earned friend has drawn our attention to the weak spot, and I stand here to-day to say, on behalf of the Coun- cil of Education, that our most careful atten- ti-,n will be given to this question of attendance. We have not boos able in Ramsey to do what we liked fur the reasons I have given, but 1 pledge myself this matter shall have careful consideration. We will use every means in our power to make education in the Isle of Men what yau wish it to be. (Ileal., hear.) The Governor: I should like to say one word with regard to what the Lord Bishop has said with regard to the Industrial Commission. The report of the Industrial Commission has only just been presented to the Court. Parts of it might have been dealt with as it cams, out, but I thought it would be bettor to have the whole report before us first. I hope when I have more finances at dispn-sal, we shall bo able to deal with come of the questions recommended by the Com- mission, which worked so hard. Before this dis-

Eclucatith in Ramsey. 506 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

C111301:1 closes I should like to say one word about the teachers pensions. I made an effort. I asked that we might be allowed to give teachers here the same pensions as they have in England. It is not fair to the teachers hare that we should not give them the same pensions, under reasonable provisions, as they have in England. It would not only be unfair to them, but we should lose a great many teachers who would not go on serving here if they have not the same advan- tages as elsewhere. I am glad to say that the Government in England has acceded to my proposal, and a Bill will be brought forward at once in the Home Office to deal with this. (Hear, hear.) The vote was agreed to, and the Court ad- jc,urned for luncheon.

INSULAR HARBOURS. The —ouzo resumed at three o'clock. The Receiver-General : I beg to move:— That this Court do approve of the estimates submitted hy the Harbour Commissioner.* for the maintenance of the harbours of this Island for the year ending 31st March, 1901, amounting in the aggregate to £7.826 33. 1d, es set forth in the statement attached hereto; and that this Court do authorize a grant to the Harbour 00m- missionets to meet the difference between the estimated income and the estimated expendi• Cure. as shown by such eetimates, of a sum of £1.339 12 10d. such sum to be provided as follows:- From the harbour dues and passenger duty levied or leviable at, Douglas Harbour, the sum of £600 0 0 From the general revenue of this Island, the sum of _ ..739 12 10 £1,339 12 10 I do not think there is anything T need par- ticularly call attention to at first, but of course, I shall be very happy to answer any questions or give any information that may be required afterwards. I would just point out that a very heavy balance appears on 1st April, 1900; but of that balance £1,090 is due to the Government, and is at present tied up in Dumbell's Bank, which we will have to pay over to the Govern- ment as soon as we receive it. The balance un- expended of harbour funds, £669, would have been nearly all expended but that, owing to the failure of Dumbell's Bank, we stopped all works which wore not absolutely necessary, not having money for them, so that that £669 comes into the works for which we ask to be authorised this year. Insular Harbours, TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 50?

Mr Joughin seconded the motion. Mr Goldsmith: I still observe that the harbour dues and passenger duty of Douglas is being expanded in other parts of the Island. It seems nn extraordinary thing that the revenues of Douglas should. be expended in Peel, Castle- town, and Ramsey. If there was an account showing the exact harbour dues, it would be seen what the dues were at each port and what the expenses wore. But the Harbour Commis- sioners make up the balance due in one amount. If these passenger duties are raised at a particular port, surely they should be expended on tbat port. If I am wrong in my view, I am ready to bo corrected. It seems to me wrong to take this slue of £659 to make up a deficiency in other places. The Clerk of the Rolls: I think the hon. member does not understand the matter properly. If he will look at one of the tables, he will see how the matter stands as to dues, and how much is due at each harbour. The harbour duos at Castle-own now are spent in other parts of the Island. All that is received in Castletown is not spent there. But there is an account taken of loans previously borrowed, and of what is due on the loans in respect of each harbour. On pages 16 and 17 of the Financial Statement there is a table showing exactly how the several harbours stand. Mr Goldsmith: This vote is for the inainten. .uses of the several harbours. The Clerk of the Rolls: If some Douglas money happens to be spent in Peel or Ramsey this year, Douglas gets the benefit of it afterwards, Each harbours account is kept quite distinct, and we know exactly how each harbour stands. Mr Kermode: IL strikes me that from Douglas Pier and Pier Buildings a very considerable amount of revenue is derived. It would be well to inquire whether the Harbour Commissioners contemplate doing anything for the roof of the pier buildings., so that it may be utilised for the purpose it was supposed to serve when it was constructed. A very large sum of money was expended in constructing a roof for the purposes of a promenade, and so on. It would he inter- esting to know if the thing could be utilised for demonstrations, such as that held the other day. It would be an immense improvement, and a great convenience to Douglas.

Insular Harbours. 508 YN WALD COURT May 29, 19f 0.

Mr Kerruish: On several occasions the im porta.nee has been urged of having these Har- bour Board accounts printed in detail. They are all concentrated in liig lumps, and it is almost impossible for any person outside the Harbour Board to comprehend these accounts. Take, for instance, schedule No. 9—"salarios- secretary; harbour masters, and lighthouse in- spector, £1,030.” I am convinced it would he of interest to members of this Court and the public at. large if the Harbour Board would, as they have indicated on several occasions, print and publish their accounts of each harbour, and the various expenses and salaries in detail in connection with these ports. Deemster Kneen: Have you not got that in the statement of the Isle of Man Harbours? Mr Kerruish: No, no person has it; it is all grouped in one lump, £1,030. Secretary's salary, harbour masters, engineers, assistants, over- lookers, and all the small army—we get them in one lump. No person knows what they pay or how they receive their pay. The Receiver-General, reply, said: As regards the expenditure on harbours, I think hon. members will see that Douglas receives £3,458, which is rather more than half the whole fund disposed of- Douglas is in the happy position of having a large sum in its passenger tax, and it is wall able to keep itself. I wish all the other harbours were able to do that, and then we would not come down on the revenue proper at all. But, as they cannot:, we are obliged to get the deficiency from the revenue—that is all. As regards utilising the top of the pier building, i do not think it would be satisfactory. We found it was so knocked about the first two years we had it going, that we had to close it. To have a number of people going on the flat roof of a building like that, and running about on it., we found would do great damage, and to do anything now to make it stronger would simply mean beginning at the beginning, pull- ing down the whole roof and having extra iron joists. I always expected that I would got at least. LBO £100 a year for that roof, and I look upon that as lost. As to these accounirs. I have no objection to givirg the list of salaries. In fact, we did publish them last year in a separate paper. But we give already about three times as much information as any Board of this Court, and I suppose it is because we give so much that people want more. (Laugh-

Insular Harbours. TYNWALD COURT, May 29. 1900 509 ter.) Every item is given. How could you give inure unless you give the actual figures of every particular matter? As regards what the hon. member for Garff mentioned, the Board has no objection to give a list of the salaries of the different people. (Hear, hear.) The motion was carried.

• RENTS AND BOAT LICENCES. The Receiver.Gencrm: I beg to move:— That the slim of £1,041 17s fid, the amount raised during the year endod 31st March. Dal frees rents, hay fisheries, and heat licences.. he ap• ',lied in aid of the £2337 mimrour'ated under the Tele of Man habours Act, 1972 (29 a nd 30 Vie. c. 231, towards the ma.fotenance of the Insular harbours, This sum of money, of course, at this present moment is locked up in Dumbellis ?lank, but we hope to be able to pay it over to the Gnv• eminent alinntrt, immediately. It wee handed over to us in lieu of the different salaries of the secretaries. Mr .Ioughin seconded the motion, and it was carried. Mr Kern:dish I would like to ask the Re- ceiver-General a question while we are on that subject of boat licences. At a Tyawald Court hold at St. John's in 1888, a question was raised by lie hon. member for Castletown as to when the Barbour Board intended placing before the Tynwald Court their new by-laws with reference to licensed pleasure boats. The information thou obtained was that very shortly these new regulations would bie laid before the Tynwald Court. I would like in ask the Receiver-General when these proposed new by-laws in reference to hoensed pleasure boats will be laid before this Court for approval or otherwise? The Receiver-General: 1 really cannot answer that question off-hand; but 1 should think they will he roady in a very short. lime.. The motion was carried.

PIER POLICE. The Receiver-General: I hog to move : - That a suns not exceeding £450 be applied from Passenger duly and harbour due!, raised or to he raised at the -harbour of Douglar, under the 1.1o.of Man harbours Acts. 1874 to 1814, in defraying the cost of maintaining a. police forco for the regulation of the traffic on the piers at. Douglas. during the year ending 314 March, 1901, Rents and Boat Licences —Pier Police. 5l0 TYNWALD COUR r, May 29, 1900.

I do not suppose that I need say anything as to that vote, whieh has been made yearly for some lime past. There is £40 of it which is locked up, and which will be returned to the Government for last year; £450 is the sum we have always received Mr Kerruish: I have very great pleasure in seconding the motion of the Receiver- General. I think the vote is a very necessary one. I have travelled a lot in my time, but the patience, tact, and courtesy of the men employed by the Harbour Commissioners in discharging their duties is beyond all praise. The vote was agreed to.

QUEEN'S PIER., RAMSEY. The Receiver-Generai: beg to move:— That a. sum not exceeding £400 be applied out of the passenger duty levied at the harbour m Ramsey under the tile of Man Harbours Act, 1E83. towards the maintenance and repair of the Queen's Pier. Ramsey. You will all know that the Ramsey Pier takes more than we get in the tolls for keeping it in order. I am afraid that up to this time we have been doing nothing but repairing the pier. Now the time has come when the deck will have to be almost renewed. We intend to do one- third of thin work this year, and I am afraid towards the end of the year we shall have to come to the Court for a further vote. This £400 out of Ramsey tolls comes in very much the same way as the £600 from Douglas, but it is not put in the general accounts, owing to the fact that Ramsey Pier has a statutory fund. Mr R. Cowley: I would urge on the Harbour Commissioners the desirability, when they are doing this work, of making the deck of pitch pine, rather than soft fir wood. I thought all along it was a mistake. The exposure to sun and rainstorm is so great that it would be a decided advantage to do it in pitch pine. The vole was agreed to.

VICTORIA PIER BUILDINGS. The Reoeiver-General I beg to move:— That a sum not exceeding I-320 be applied from the general revenue of the Island in de fraying the cost of the repair of the Victoria Pier buldinsa. and the incidental espenses in conlnection with the :lavatorics and waiting- rooms in such buildince, during the year ending ins 31st It 1901. I think his Excellency in his budget speech

Queen's Pier, Ramsey.—Victoria Pier }iuildie s. TYNWAL COURT, May 29, 1900. 511

explained to you why this is done. Heretofore we have always been in the habit. of paying the repairs out of tho money as it came in. Now the Government auditors require us to get this money at the beginning of the year, ..nd we shall have to pay it back at the end of the year. Mr Goldsmith seconded the motion. The Receiver-General: We are getting from these buildings, altogether, the sum of £1,012, and I suppose that is the most satisfactory work we have done in the Isle of Man. The whole of the oost of the enclosure and buildings was £24,000, and we pay regularly into the Govern- ment between £700 and £800 a year. If we could get a similar return from all our works wo should do very well. Mr Cowley : In addition it is an enormous improvement and a great convenience. The Receiver-General: £24,000 is the cost of the whole work, the building only oast about £3,000. The vote was carried.

MAINTENANCE OF PUBLIC BUILDDIGS. The Clerk of the Rolls moved the following resolution:— That a aura not exceeding £940 be applied from the general revenue of this Isle for the purpose of providing for the repair, maintenance amt s-upevision of public buildings, and for the ebaree for rent and incidental expenses of the custom houses in this fsle, for one year from the let April, 1900. Hie Honour said : The resolution about public buildings has been entrusted to me, but I have very little to do with the matter. It is Mr Story that• tinker, charge of the publio buildings. His report, which has been laid before you, gives a very satisfactory account of what has been done, The only items to which I would call special attention are those relating to Government House. As was mentioned before to-day, you 'will find that last year the expenditure was £203 5s. 5d. This year the estimate for the two items which were before the Court last year for Govern- ment House is the sum of £245, but thoro are extra estimates this year—garden wall £50 ; and supplementary estimate, £90—as to which information is given in the report. I call attention especially to this matter, because I find this garden wall was really blown down. It is a specimen of many of the buildings on the Govern- ment House property—and a matter whioh is

Mctintenance of Public Buildings. 512 f Yi\IWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. to be considered in any arrangements we make hereafter. At any rate, the whole expenditure is necessary. As to the other matters, there is very little difference in the expenditure to last year, except that nothing is charged for Castle Rusher' and Peel Castle, because the expenditure will fall on the fees paid by visitors to those buildings. Mr Story looks carefully into these matters. I move the resolution. Mr Mylehreost seconded the motion. Mr Quine: There are two items here I would like to call the attention of the Court to. One is supervising the public buildings and the other Is the rent of the Customs House. I think if those were separated, and the Tynwald Court knew what those items were it would be more satisfactory. As representing our constituents we arc expected to know something about these small items.. Mr J. D. Micas : In May last year I called attention to this question of the expenditure on Government House, with the result that a Com- mitieo was appointed. That Committee has never est. In fact, I believe, at the present time, the only members that remain are ids Honour the Clerk of the Rolls and the hon. member for Middle, Mr Maitland. Tho other members were his Honour 'the late Clerk of the Rolls, Mr Myirea, and Mr E. H. Christian, who at for Michael. I would like to know if anything further is going to be done in the matter. I would suggest that a new Committee should he appointed with the same reference, or else that the vacancies on the former Committee be filled up. We seem tr. be getting no further on. If I am in order, I would move that this matter of Government House be referred to a committee of five. The Governo.r said the motion could be brought forward at a later stage. Mr -Kerroish: Are these repairs ordinary or extraordinary done Ii31. contract? Is there Nn architect employed year by year in drawing up estimates of these repairs, and are these estimates advertised by public tender? The °overlie:: An estimate is sent in, and if it is right it is accepted. Mr Kerruish: Is the work prepared by an architect, and specifications made out, arid tenders invited, or is the sum, or is scone specially selected person doing the work year after year? T. think when public moneys are, expended, it

Maintenance of public Buildings. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 513

would be better if public tenders were asked for these separate votes each year, and the question is whether it could not be done more cheaply and more effectively. The Governor ; In the case of a good many of these repairs, they do not want the expense of getting a lot of tenders. I should think it not worth while. Tho Clerk of the Rolls: I am informed that when there are works capable of being put out to tender in that form, tenders are called for, but much of the work is of such a small character that it would not be worth while, I may say that the garden wall which has been blown down is a matter of contract. The vote was agreed to.

REGISTRARS' SALARIES. The Vicar-General : I beg to move the following resolution:— That a since not exceeding £233 be applied from the general revenue of this Isle for the purpose of fprOv:i ti hag _remuneration for one year from lst January. DOD, do the registrar- general. registrars, and sub-registrars under the Civil ltegistra.tion Acts—to the registrar-general. .£60; to the registrar at Douglas, and to the sub-reg.'strars, a, s-um not exceeding £173 in the agrogate; such payment to be Fubject to the approval of his Thi.oellency the Lieutenant- Governor. It is the Fame al it has been in former years. I think their duties are all well done. I have an opportunity of seeing matters every day a.4 the office, and I must say chat the attendance to the public is very great indeed. Mr Maitland seconded, and the motion was agreed to.

VOTES FOR PUBLIC VACCINATION. The Vicar-General moved:— That a sum not exceeding £59 58 6d be applied from the general revenue of this Idle to defray the ()halves of the public vaccinators for the districts of Douglas, 0a...tletown. Peel, and Ram- sey, under the Vaecirrfition Act, 1878„ incurred during the year ended list December, /899. Mr Goldsmith seconded. Carried. The Rece:_ver-GeneraI moved:— Whereas it is expedient the. the officers ap- ncinted for better enforcing the Acts relating to vaccination should be continued for another year: .Resolved, " That a sum not exceeding £50 be voted from the general revenue of this Isle Registrars' Salaries.—Votes for Public Vaccination. 514 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

for this PO-pose during 'the financial year ending 31st March, 1901." Mr ),Iaitland seconded, acd the motion was carried.

POOR ASYLUM VOTE. The Receiver-General: I move: That a oontribution not exceeding £250 be granted from the general revenue of this Isle in aid of the funds of the Poor Asylum for the year muting 31st March, 1901. This is what we get every year. From what I have seen in some of the papers I believe we are going to get n much larger amount next time, and I shall be very glad of it. Mr R. Clucas seconded. Agreed.

ENCOURAGEMENT OF TREE PLANTING. Mr Quine moved: That a sum not exceeding £30 be applied from the general revenue of this Island for the purpose of encouraging the planting of trees in the Island, Tho hon. member said: I should like, if possible, to change the word "£30" to £54. Two years ago your Excellency was asked to grant £250. That year only £50 was granted towards tree- planting. Since that the ,increase in the number 0.f trees distributed for planting has been greatly en the increase. This year the number sold has been nearly 30,000, and from the sum of £250 only about £75 has been received already, so that really the sum of £30 has been much too small. One gentleman bought ,5.000, and ho has pro- ' Mised next year to buy 20,000 alone for planting some waste lands in the Island, and it will be a great improvement. I think if it is possible to alter this vote from £30 to £50, it would be very acceptable to the Committee, and, really, though it is but a small Society. the Arboricultural Society is doing a very excellent work, and work which will have an effect in a short time in beautifying the appearance of the Island. Mr Cowley: I heg to second this vote, and I would urge upon your Excellency the desirahiliiy of altering the figure as the hon. member far Rushen has mentioned, inasmuch that, as a matter of fact, it will be an absolute necessity to receive £50 this year. The work done by the Society has been very large, fully 33 per cent. more this year than last year, and in addition to that, the Society has scoured a small piece of laud in

Poor Asylum Vote.--Encouragement of Tree Planting. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 515

the neighbourhood of Douglas, and has stocked it with something like 10,000 young trees suitable to the Island. For my part, I am of opinion, and I am quite sure, in the interests of iho Island, the amount should be from 10 times to 20 times more then it is. If there is one industry which needs encouragement, it is that of tree- planting. It is highly recommended by the report of the Industries Commission, and ought, if possible, to be still further developed. I hope your Excellency and the Court will see yo,ir way to alter the vote to £50. Mr Goldsmith : On a point of order, I would like to ask whether it is competent on the past of the ham member for Itushen to nIter this vote. He has given notice on the agenda for £30, Etna instead of moving that, he says he would like to ask for £50. Clearly that should be an amendment to the motion. The Governor: He cannot very well move en amendment without my permission. Mr Goldsmith : But on the point of order, letting given notice of motion for £30, he cannot alter that without permission of the Court. The Governor : With regard to the point which has been raised, I have only this to say, that I think the application for more money for tl,s planting of trees should come from the Socie:y to me to consider it but if it is the general wish of the Court that the sum should be increased to £50, I think it is a little out of order for the hen, member to move an amendment to his motion. I think it would be quite right to grant the increased sum, if it is the wish of the House. Mr Goldsmith: I do not want to interruui, but I wish to get the matter done in order. would like to ask what is the meaning of the term "encouraging the planting of trees?" Does it mean giving trees at below cost price? Mr Quine: Unless the larger sum,is granted the Committee it would place them in a ve awkward position. We have now 8,000 trees ise stork, and the demand is increasing every year. The Committee get trees from the largest firm,: in England and supply them et 50 per cent, below cost, so that any man may secure them. In addition to the Government grant money collected from the members. Any one wishing to plant. may have trees a good deal cheaper than

Encouragement of Tree Planting. 516 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900,

they can buy them from the largest firms in England. The Receiver-General: If this Committee • m- played a thoroughly good competent man in the Island who would give advice upon the planting of trees to individuals, they would do a great deal more good than by merely taking a small sum off the cost of the trees. When I was going. to plant myself, I got a man who has charge of the Woods and Forests here to come to the land— I had of course, to make arrangements for him to come. Deemater Kneen : I beg to move as an amendment that we substitute the word "£50" for "B30" in the resolution, This is a voluntary Society, giving their own money for the purpose of improving tree-planting in the Island. They are doing a good work, and there is already ay improved taste, if I may call it, among the inhabitants. This is a very small sum for the object in view, and I think we ought to take into account the position taken sip by the mover and seconder of the resolution. If it is worth doing at all, it is worth doing well. Mr Kermode: I beg to second it. I think this is one of the most desirable little votes we have had before us, and the Committee deserves the thanks of the community for the work they do. Mr J- R. Cowell : I would like to point out ihe ridiculousness of the whole thing as an Island movement. Although I took part in the early days of this matter in pushing it forward, I do -,ot hesitate to say it is a most excellent thing or the of flan, which in some parts is ;neatly lacking in evergreens as well as in a ianeral assortment of trees. I find there is a $oviety in the Isle of Man celled the Isle of Man Arborieultural Society, al the head of which is your Excellency, and the vice-presidents are the Lord Bishop, the Attorney-General, and the Speaker of the House of Keys, and when I find this Society enters upon its labours to encourage tree-planting in this Island, and comes to the Court For £30. I think it is ridiculow. The suns of £30 to help the planting of trees is comical. It amounts to about £1 15s a parish, and I can scarcely imagine what amount of work that small rum can do in beautifying the roads and lanes of the Island. If there gentlemen are doing a good work they ought to come with a better scheme than this; not a paltry scheme, not a twopence-halfpenny scheme, but a Scheme that

Encouragement of Tree Planting. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 51 has been well considered and well designed. If they come to the Court with such a proper scheme, I feel sure that, generally speaking, it would receive support, but it appears to me now that the paltry sum we have been asked for is merely to add to come other sums which have been raised voluntarily for the purpose of selling trees under cost. That does not appear to me a dignified thing. If it can be shown that there was poverty, or inability to procure trees, I think it would be right, but, altogether, I think we are wanting information, and I would suggest to my hon. friend that while we let him off this time, and give him more than he was disposed to ask for, that, hereafter, the Committee should prepare something more worthy the attention this Court, to show UR that, by bringing over a skilled man, he could teach the people semi- thing, if, indeed, he can show them by actual demonstration what can be done. Then I have not the smallest r1.03::..4 that your Excellency, being at the head ne Society, would allow the matter to come before the Clonrt in the direction of n vote of a considerable sum of money. Mr Quine: I would like to say that very pro. bably we will do so. The hon. member has been asked to join as a member of the Society. The Governor: The arrangement was made at first as a sort of experiment, and I am very much in favour of persevering in having these trees planted, and if it succeeds 1 think the Court will he prepared to gr;Int more money. Mr Golthm:th : I am not going to oppose th3 motion at all. My only wish was to get the hon. member for Rushen to put his motion in the proper form. The amendment was carried, and afterwards the motion, as amended, was earned.

AGRICULTURAL GRANTS. IMPROVLNO HORSES AND CATTLE. PREMLUAIS FOR LIGHT HORSES. Mr Maitland: I beg to move:— Whereas it is expedient with a 'view to im- provng the breed of horses, that prices to the amount of £150 be given to horses of the follow- classes, via,:-1. Glydesdarle: and 2, Shire; such horses to be approved by the Agricultural Society of this Island, and to be used for stud purposes; the prizes to be paid in the propel- tiona of two-thirds by the Insular Government, aria one-third by the Society. And whereas it is also expedient that prizes to the amount of £96 be offered for snares, li lies, and yearlings. to be approved by the said Society: Resolved. Agricultural Grants, gl8 TYNWALD COURT May 29, 1990.

"That a sum not eceeding £196 be voted from the general revenue of this Island for the foregoing purposes." And whereas it is also expedient. with a view to improving the breed of cattle, that special Prizes. amounting in the aggregate to £136. be offered for hulls. to be richtited at the Society's spring show, but be held at Douglas during the current year, on the understanding that •on:. half of the amount of such prises shall be de- frayed out of the Insular revenue. Resolved. " That a sum net exceeding £68 be voted from the genera/ revenue of !II's Island, being one moiety of the amount of the proposed The conditions on which the money is, in either of the foregoing eases, to be given to be subject to the approval of his Excellency the Li eutonant-Governor." The hon. member said: I need only say that these grants are very much appreciated by the agriculturists of the Isle of Man, and there is no doubt that since their institution there has been a very great and very marked improvement in the quality of stock in the Isle of Men, and those dependent upon the industry have been able to receive very much bettyr prices for their stock. Mr Hutchinson seconded. Mr ,I. D. Mums: I wish to move an amendment in the third line after the word "shire," the amendment to read " (3) hackney or other light horse." Whilst I agree thoroughly with this Court in the idea of assisting the Agricul- tural Society in offering these premiums, I do not see the justice of confining that vote entirely to one class of horses, and assist only those who support that particular class. For- merly the premiums were given in three classes: to the Clydesdale, shire, and to a light horse, and then we used to got. over in the Island horses of each class; but this motion only includes heavy horses, and those who wish for a light horse are placed at a great disadvantage. I do not think I am asking too much when I ask that this amendment should be inserted. Both the classes provided for are heavy horses. I do not suggest for one moment to put them into one class, but I would only say that there should be a third elas-s to include a hackney, Yorkshire coach horse, or any other light horse. I do not wish to labour the question any further, but I think that, even though the majority may not be in favour of the light stallion, it is only fair that the minority should have support. At the present time those who wish for the services of a light horse have to pay for the support of a heavy horse, and can get no assistance for themselves. Agricultural Grants. TYNWALD COURT, May 20, 1900 519

Mr Kerruish: I beg to support the motion of the hon. member for Middle. This question has been settled by your Excellency and the depu- tation of the - Agricultural Society, and the money has already been expended, as the show at which the prizes were awarded to these horses has been held at the beginning of the year. The Governor : Al first the prizes were given as the hon. member for Rushen suggests, but the Committee thought fit to withdraw that. I have no objection to it, but I - should much rather have the guidance of the Committee of the Society than lay down any particular lines as to how the prizes were to be given. Mr J. D. Clueas: Surely he is not correct in stating that this money has already been expended? Mr Maitland: Yes, the show is over. Mr J. D. Clucas: It seems to me an extraordinary thing that this Court should not be asked to vote the money until after it has beet• expended behind their backs. Mr Maitland: The Society resolved that the prizes be given to these two classes, and, as a matter of fact, the show has been held and the awards made for this year. Deemster Kneen: I should like to see at the next Court on the 5th July a motion in the name of the hon. member for Middle for the following year's grant, for the reason that farmers would then know early in the season what prizes would be given in the following year, and they would be given an opportunity of going to England and buying their stock. There is a . general feeling of uncertainty throughout the country whether these prizes will be given until it is too late for buying fresh stock. I see no reason why this should not be voted on the 5th July, or, at any rate, at the first sitting after the summer vacation. The Governor: I see no objection whatever to that. Mr Hutchinson : I give notice that I will bring it on on the 5th July. I agree with the hon. member for Rushen about a light, horse. It is not the general opinion of the Agricultural Soci- ety that a light horse is so necessary here, but it is the opinion of a small minority, and I give notice of an extra £75 to be voted for next season for a light horse. The Governor If the hon. member will send the notice in, I will give it early consideration.

Agricultural Grants. S ,C) TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. Mr Cadman: Have the Society and the Gov- ernment any sort of guarantee that the horses who get the prizes are stock-getters? I have heard that one horse was the father of 13 foals, and if that is so, which I am not in a position to prove, it is practically throwing away public money. Deemster Kneen: Is not that in the hands of the Committee of the Society? Mr Quint): I rise to second the amendment moved by the hon. member for Bushell, that one-third of this money be given to a light horse. The Governor: I must appeal to the hon. member. Of course I will put tho amendment if wished, but I am not at all inclined to do • it unless the Committee recommend it. . The Receiver-General : I would point out to your Excellency that the show has already been held, and we could not very well afford to wait. Mr J. D. Clucas: T was not aware for the moment that this money was already spent and decided upon before we had this resolution before us. I eertainly did not read the resolution that way. The amendment was withdrawn, and the motion agreed to.

ELECTION EXPENSES. Deemster Kneen : I beg to move:— The accounts of the expeneels incurred in the election of members of the House of Keys for the sheadings of Glanfaba and Middle and the town of Peel, respectively, &axing bee% laid before the Court, and having been found to be in accordance with the scale of charges laid dov,ta in the Haase of Keys Election Act. 1892: Resolved, "That the mine be approved, and that the sum of £100 les 9d, made up as fol. lows:— Chlainfaba Sheading 6 £42 3 1 Middle Sheading 23 2 0 Town of Peel 35 13 8 £100 18 9 134 applied from the general revenue of this Isle to defray the same. Mr Maitland seconded the motion. Mr R. Clucas: I do not know whether I am quite in order or not, but it is the only vote on which I have a chance to say what I am inclined to look upon as a grievance. It is the mode of exhibiting the names of voters in connection with elections in the House of Keys. I do not know how they are placed in other Election ExpenFes. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 21 towns, but if they are placed in no better positions than in Douglas I pity them. The names are simply written out and placed on a board outside the Court house door, and, without the :lid of a stepladder or powerful spec- tacles, which are not always available, you cannot make out whether the names are correct or not.. I trust the matter will ho remedied at an early date. The motion was agreed to.

PUBLICATION OF DEBATES IN THE LEGISLATURE. Deemster Kneen : I have been asked to move the next resolution, which seems to be rather in want of n godfather. The matter was explained this morning by your Excellency in your budget speech:— That a sum not exceeding £220 be voted from the general revenue of this Island to defray the cost of the publication of the debates'. of the Insular I.A..islatnre for the two years ending July, 1900. The sum means £110 per year for each of the past two years. A. Committee was, I believe, appointed Come time since for the purpose of considering this matter, and coming to some arrangement with Messrs Brown and Sons. The late Deemster Gill was chairman, Mr Mylrea was a member, and I believe other members were the Speaker, Mr Crellin, and Mr Cowley. I believe that Committee has, in fact, never incl. ("It has not.") It has not made any report. (" No.") That Committee should report, and something should be done with a view to a more satisfactory arrangement being made in the future. I was not a member of that Committee, and I simply move the vote for the work that has been done. Mr Mylchreest seconded the motion. The Speaker: The Committee met on one or two occasions, and took notes of a certain amount of evidence; hut, unfortunately, those notes and that evidence were in charge of the late chairman, Deemster Gill, and cannot be found anywhere, so that, practically, the Com- mittee is almost in the same position as if they had not sat. at all. The Governor: Unless the papers can be found. Deemster Kneen: I have some of the late Publication of Debases in the Legislature. 522 TYNWALD COURT, May 20, 1000.

Deemster Gill's papers and I have not come aoross that. Mr 3- R. Cowell: I do not quite gsther what the sum is for. Deemster Kneen: Per printing and binding all the legislative debates for two years, including the reporting, and sending a slip to each of the members in order that he may correct his remarks before the work is published. It does not pay the whole cost of the volumes. The arrangement is that members should have them at a reduced price. I have got the volumes, and very useful I find them, too. Mr J. R. Cowell: What I fail to understand is that we members are asked to pay so much as well ae the sum paid by the Tynwald Court. Why is the sum you ask for not sufficient to cover the printing and binding these debates in a very cheap form, and enabling members to have them? The Governor I thought I had already explained that to the hon. member. It is following the precdont established in London. The Government give a very large subsidy to Han- sard, and then there is a certain number of official copies for the offices, and so on. But, otherwise, members have to pay for these copies themselves. We follow the same rule. We take a certain number for the officials, and the others are sold just the same as they are in London. Mr J. R. Cowell: I am afraid that explanation does not satisfy my mind, because I consider there is no comparison between the conditions in the House of Commons and the publication of Hansard, and the Isle of Man, than there is between night and day. Here we have a Legislature numbering some 32 members There they have a Legislature numbering 670 or more, Our legislative littings spread themselves over a few days in the year The legislative debates in the British Parliament extend over many months, and there is not one point of comparison between the two eases, as far vs I can see. I can quite understand that Han- sard entails a very large expenditure indeed. Here it can only mean that, taking the members of the Court at 32, we are charged lOs 5d for these volumes, so that for a mere trifle of £18 or £20 more the members of this Legislature ()mild receive a copy. As I say, they are en- titled to the legislative debates. It looks to me paltry to go so far, and yet not to go all the Publication of Debates in the Legislature. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 528 way. Now, make a clean slice of it ; instead of voting this sum, and cheese-paring, and asking members to put their hands in their pockets end pay half a sovereign, pay the cost of the whole thing, and do not let us have two bites of a cherry. The Governor 1 am not responsible for this arrangement. It was started by Mr Spencer Walpole. I only went on with it because I thought the precedent in England was a right one. When we are going to make the new arrangement, I will certainly consider the suggestion made to-day. I am only anxious that these volumes should be useful to members of the Legislature. Mr Qualtrough: Does this vote of £220 take the place of a vote for £70 in 1898 for 0. similar purpose, or does it add to the amount? Is it in addition to the payment authorised, or understood to be made over a year ago, as well as this year? I take it, then, the total sum would represent £290. As I understand it, the arrangement that was made with the printers for printing the debates in the Insular Legislature was £70 a year. The Governor: I may explain to the hon. member at once that when it was first done paid £75 a year, and Mr Brown, who publishes those volumes, said that ho really could not continue to do it at. a loss. 1, therefore, said that I would propose to the Court to give hem £100 a year, but Mr Brown asked that he should have £110 a year. I propose to-day we should give him £220 for the two years, and then we should have a new arrangement. He agrees to do it for that price, and after next July we wilt try and come to a new arrangement winch will be satis. factory to the publisher and satisfactory to the members of the Court.. 1 made as suggestion to Mr Brown the other day that it might be ar- ranged in a better form; much more like Han- sard in LEindon. That in all under consideration, but I have no doubt we shall come to a right conclusion in time. Mr Cowley: I should like to ask a further question. I had the honour of being a. member of the Committee who sat once and obtained evidence, and part of that evidence amounted to the fact that. an agreement had been entered into with Messrs Brown for a number of years, which terminated last year or the year before. Part of that agreement was that for this sum of £75, 75 copies of these debates were to be provided for

Publication of Debates in the Legislature. S24 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. the Government Offices each year. I believe that was done, and it seems to me most extraordinary that 75 'copies should go to the Government Offices, and yet, when members of the Court plead for a copy not one can be obtained_ I believe in this agreement it was agreed that members of the Court should pay for their copies. The earlier copies I have paid for, but I have refused to pay since, because the agreement has terminated, and it seems to me that out of the 75 copies enough should be left for all public purposes. if that irtre done I believe the whole agitation would be at an end. IL is an absolute noce.ity that members of the Court should be provided with these debates. Whilst we are provided with statutes, we have no means except memory of finding out what was the course of legislation during the last two or three years, except by means of these legislative debates. I am quite sure, if the matter was seen to, there is a. very easy way of set- tling it to the entire satisfaction of the Court. The Governor: I am glad of the suggestions made- I think, when new arrangements are come to, then will be the time to consider whether we cannot improve matters. Mr Quine: I do net want to prolong the discussion, but members of the Court that live outside of Douglas are placed at a disadvantage by not having these volumes. When they get copies of the Bills they want -tp find some referenoe to things going on. Members give their time for nothing, oopies of the debates are rather costly, and I think members should have copies given them. The Governor The original arrangement was that the Government would not either sell or give away the copies they took, because it would in- jure the price which Mr Brown got for publishing this book. Mr Aerruish asked his Excellency if he had any idea when the Statistical Abstraot would be published. Deerester Kneen objected that they were tra- velling wide of the subject. It was quite clear that these matters would be dealt with in the most satisfaotory manner by the Committee to be appointed. Under the arrangement made with Mr Brown they owed him E220. There seemed to be a great anxiety on the part of members to procure copies, but they did not seem to have the same anxiety as outsiders, who had to pay 10s. bd. each for them. As to the volumes published hi

Publication of Debates in the Legislature. TYNWALD COURT, May 29,1900. 525

years past., were gentlemen who since became members of Vile Court going to claim copies issued, before their election, or was there to be a vested interest in those who had since ceased to be members? However, ha was assured that, now the contract. was at an end, there was en abundance of copies in the cellars of the Government Office, and members could get them like so much waste paper. He (Deemster Kneen) was sorry to toe that there was not very much interest taken by members in the pnyication, of the Legislature from time to time. He him- -self had not the slightest objection to paying the 10s. 6d. fee for the future, and letting it go to paying the debt. of £220. Mr 3. R. Cowell: You might as well ask us to pay for the pens and ink. The vote was agreed to.

CASTLE BUSMEN AS A MUSEUM. Ii PURCHASE OF THE ELK. The following notice stood on the agenda: — That. a sum not exceeding £150 be applied out of the general revenue of this Island towards the cost of fitting up certain rooms at Castle Rushen for the plumose of a museum, and for purchasing an elk, the property of the Isle of Man Natural History and Antiquarian Society, and at present deriosited in the museum; such sum to be applied by the Musxtum and Ancient Monumonta. Trustees, with the approval of hie Excellency the Lieutenant Governor. The Speaker The vote which stands in the Lord Bishop's name has been placed in my hands. A stun not exceeding £100 is to be applied towards the cost of fitting out certain rooms, understand £63 has already been expended, and probably there will be a certain revenue The sum of £50 is for an elk which is to become the property of the Isle of Man. :1 think that elk cost, the :Society £90, and if the Society was not unfortunately in a weak financial position shay would ho by no means desirous of parting with the elk. Therefore, there can be little doubt that the nation is making a good bargain. I believe the increased number of fees to Castle Rushen to see it will very soon pay the original o u flay. , Mr Orellin seconded the motion, and said the Insular Government had made an excellent bargain in purchasing the elk at £50 from the Anti • quarian Society.

Castle liaAen as a Museum,—Tho purchase of the Elk. 526 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

The Vienr-G eneral suggested the .introduction of the word "temporary" before the word "museum" in the resolution. The Governor, after some demur, agreed Co the insertion of the word. Deemstor Kneen thought it might be well to inquire into the title of the Antiquarian Society. Ile was cure the elk had not been recovered altogether by the Antiquarian Society. Sonic people said it was got partly by subserip- tione- By what right the Society disposed of it he did not know. (Laughter.) However, ho thought it was an excellent thing, joking apart, that this elk should be acquired by trustees for the Island, and he entirely approved of the vote. Orellin said there had been a grant .if money by the British Asrociation, and some pre rate subscriptions given with the idea that the elk ,.hould belong to the Antiquarian Society. Mr Cowell remarked that future historians, on looking over the records of that honourable Court., would be surprised to find that an elk was discovered in 190D. It might be advisable to state "the skeleton of an elk "—The hon. member moved the alteration of the resolution accord- ingly. Mr °Incas seconded this amendment. The Speaker: If you want to be strictly correct, it is "megaceros Ilibernicus." The amendment. was carried, and the resolution as amended accepted.

TOLLS ON DOUGLAS SWING BRIDGE. The Receiver-General: The Harbour Commis. sioners, on the 25th May, 1900, made the following change in their by-laws: In by-lawe numbers 1 and 3 of the by-laws made upon the 34th day of June, 1897, and confirmed upon the 13th day of July, 1897, as aforesaid, the word "3.5" shall be substituted for the word "30." If the members of the Court will look at the by- law they will see the meaning of that. There was a complaint made to us by a great many people living on the opposite side of the harbour that they were inconvenienced, that there was not sufficient discount on the tickets as issued, so we agreed that 56 tickets should he given for one shilling. There are 40 or 50 books of tickets 'hat have not been given in, so that we make IL up in that way. It is only a small thing, and it Tolls on Douglas Swing Bridge. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 527

will probably make them more satisfied, and. therefore, I beg to move: That the foregoing by-law be. and the same is hereby confirmed. Mr Goldsmith: I beg to second the resolution. The people on the south of the harbour say they were only treated the tame way as the other peop:e in the town, and that it is fair to extent it to 36—they my it should lie 40. The members of the town are much diEuppointed that there should be a charge at. all. It ought not to be. The Vicar-General: Are they supposed to be return tickets? (Laughter.) The Receive:-General: Oh, no. Mr R. Camas : I thoroughly support the alter. atme.. It is a Step in the right direction, and I think they might as well consider whether they could not., between the let October and the 1,t. April, throw the bridge open completely to the people. The revenue taken during these months I am not aware of hut. it will not be a great deal, and' it would be a great boon to the people on the other side of the harbour, and probably to the people on this side of the harbour. If th'e Commissioners would only take the matter into serious consideration the loss of revenue would not be comilderab:e. 1 have not the means of getting the figures for stere months, or I could soon make head and tail of it. The motion was agreed to.

POET ST, MARY PATHWAY. The Receiver-General laid before the Court the report of the Highway Board on the petition for the alteration of a footpath at Port St.. Mary. He said the footpath was a vary short one, and the Board went to see it. About 30 or 40 people met there, and he had asked them f they had any objection, and they said they we.e all in favour of the alteration. The Board then took evidence. There were 40 or 50 ready to give evidence, he believed, in favour, and they took the evidence of three, one a village commissioner, one who occupied a portion of the land, and one was a man living in Fistard, who would be most likely to use the footpath, and they all agreed that the new footpath was a great na- provement. The Board having gone over the footpath agreed. The new footpath is ready for traffic, but the owner is going to make some little improvements an it. In order to close !'he

Port St. Mary Pathway. 528 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

pathway the Board require this Court to give its consent, and, therefore, he begged to more that the consent of the Court be given. Mr Allen seconded. Agreed.

THE HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS. VACANCY Ir11.1.ED. 'rhe Governor: A short time ago I nominated, as it was my duty to do, the member for Castle- town as a Harbour Commissioner. Objectim was made, and the post was never filled up. it is now before the Court, and I think it is to; them to approve of the nomination I made or not. If not Mr Mylehreest, of course I must make a further nomination. I nominate Mr les. Mylehroest as such Harbour Commissioner. The Clerk of the Rolls: I move that we ap prove. rihc Vicar-General seconded. Mr J. R. Cowell: I would like to support the motion. I think that in doing so I ought to any that your Excellency is carrying out with perfect. consistency a kind of understanding which was conic to in this matter a rood many years ago, that, so far as possible, your Excellency, having regard to the interests of the other parts of the Island, should, where it is practicable, wleet gentlemen representing the particular part., or in some manlier in association with it. I believe Mr Mylehreest will make a very efficient member of the Harbour Board. Mr J. D. Chums: As being responsible for 'he postponement of the endorsement by the Court of your Excellency's nomination at the recent Tyn- w:.(1 Court, I think a word of explanation is 'due from ins. At the time I opposed, some kind friends said I wanted the post myself. I used only say that I opposed going on with it on the ground that the Tynwald Court at St. John's was not the place to take a nomination of that scut, in r.ise anyone should make objection. You would not be inclined to take contentious busi- res.% at St. John s. The nomination of Mr lklylchreest was agreed to.

ONCHAN SEWERAGE SCHEME. Mr Creed presented the petition of the Onchan Commissioners. The petition stated that

The Harbour Commissioners.—Onchan Sewerage Scheme, TVNWALD COURT, May 29. 1900. 529

on the 26th May, 1899, the petitioners were authorised to borrow a sum not exceeding £2,500, f,-r the purpose of completing the cost of drainage of the said village, to be extended over a term of not exceeding 50 years, at a rate of interest not exceeding four per cent., and to be secured on the district fund. The said money was borrowed and deposited with Dumbell's Banking Company to a separate account. The said drainage works were duly proceeded with, and money drawn to pay the east. Dumbell's Bank sus- pended payment on the 3rd February, 1900, wink a balance of £1,234 9s 8d remained on deposit. Petitioners 'are without funds to carry on and complete the works, and desired the authori'.7 or the Court to borrow £1,300 for that purpose an the same terms its the former loan. Richard Maltby Broadbent, sworn, deposed: I am chairman of the Commissioners of Onehan Village. When Dumbell's Bank closed, the "4 a- lage Cc-mmissioners had the sum of £1,234 9s 91 to the credit of the.special drainage account. The drainage works are only partially completed, and if left as at present they are a nuisance, and :t is very desirable that the work should he carried out. as was originally intended. We applied to the Local Government. Board for advice as to what proceedings we should take, and their advice was to apply to the Court- Demeter Kneen: What do you propose to do with the dividend you get from the bank? Mr Otter: That is a matter in regard to whish the Court would impose conditions on us. We are quite prepared to take instructions as to how the dividend is to he dealt with when received. Witness: We propose to apply the money immediately when received iewardo paying oil the existing debt. Deemst.,r Knean : It ought to ha stated in the petition or in the resolution. The gentlemon now in office may go out, anal others will know nothing about it, unless it is stated. The Attorney-General: Don't we have in these applications a statement as to the rateable value of the district and of the loans—some statement as to the financial position of the district- • The district might be in a position that they could not borrow; they might have lost so much that they could not borrow more. If they did not oome before the Court I should not care, but they come here and got a kind of sanction to a sohemo, and

Onchan Sewerage Scheme, 530 TYNWAT_,D COURT, May 29, 1900. we know nothing about it. If these matters were dealt with by the Local Government Board they would take the responsibility, and we should have no cause to interfere. Mr Creer: The original. scheme was approved in 1899. The Attorney-General: That does not-alter my objection in the least. They have lost the sum, and the proper course is, if it can ho done without any breach of sound finance, to allow them to borrow again. The Iteoeiver.Generat: unin you tell us what has been done at the miter end of the fall into the tide? That requires to he extended. Witness: Very little; it is almost completed there. The chief part which requires to be done is the finishing of the cormections near the village, T)eemster Kneen : I understood that was done? Witness: It is not paid for. Deemster Kneen: Is not this really to re-sewer Strathallan Park? Witness: That is so. Deemster Kneen: I understand that you have received (sufficient money by selling cembnt, which was deteriorating, to go on and make the connections? Witness: Yes. Deemster Kneen: There is a difference of opinion on the question as tb whether the plan originally approved by the Parish Commission- ers was that which was afterwards approved by this Court. Is it a feet that the plan they approved of was altered, and another plan was substituted by the consent of the Commissioners aft erwards ? Witness: There was no substantial deviation from the plan the Court approved of. That is he plan we are carrying out now. Deemster Kneen : What is the indebtedness of the Onohan district other than this sum? Witness: £200 for the original sewerage of the district. Demeter Kneen: What is the rateable value? Witness: £9,045. A penny rate will produce, nearly £40. The Receiver-General asked what the total indebtedness would be_ Witness: It will be £1,500, £1,300, and £200. Of course we, do not intend borrowing all this ire are only asking for it.

oncliam Hew er.,.e,c B. hems. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 531

The Attorney-General: In case Chadian is taken info the Douglas boundary, how far will this he in connection with the drainage system of Douglas? Witness: It is entirely separate. The outlet is towards Bank's Harbour, outside the town boundary. DeomEter Kneen: 1 take it the extension 0! the town boundary has rather hurried you? Iffitnem: Yes. It is done with the approve: of the Local Government, Board. The Attorney-General: How long ago was it approved by this Court? Mr Greer, May, 1899. Witness: It is very necessary to have this completed for the sake of the health of the district. The main sewer is froin a point beyond the Douglas Bay Hotel to Onchan Village, and the main. 'drains go through every part of the The outlet is at a point. between Port Jack and Onchan Harbour. The Attorney-General: How far does it go to Sea? Witness: To below low water mark. Outside tho circle of the bay considerably. The Receiver-General : I may say, as one of the Local Government Board„ that I consider their outlet is very much better than the outlet nt the Crescent, which they would be brought to if they came to Douglas. The Attorney-General: The matter would come to me differently if it came with the sanction of the Local Government. Board, who had investigated the matter with plans on the table. This Court is a body ill-adapted for deciding tt on its merits. Witness: The Board have told us that if we made application to the Court they would support it. Mr Maitland moved that the prayer of the petition be granted. It would not do to stop ti work of this sort half-way. The Governor: I regard this as a most necessary and jud!cious work. The Clerk of the Rolls said that the resolution should - provide that any dividend received from the mousy in the bank should he applied to the sinking fund, Mr Creer drafted the resolution as follows:— That this petition having been considered. it waspresalved that the prayer thereof he granted,

Onchan Sewerage Scheme 531 TYNWALD COURT, May 26, Mo. all dividends received from the liquidators of Dumbell'e Banking company, Limited, in respect of the petitioner's drainage account with each company to be applied in payment of the loan authorised by the said order of May, 1899, or in providing a sinking fund for that purpose. The resolution was agreed to.

STREET TRADING BY CHILDREN. Mr Cruickshank applied, on behalf of the Douglas Corporation, for the sanction of the Court to certain bylaws passed by the Corpora, tion in connection with the regulation of street trading by children. He presumed the Court would refer the matter to a Committee. Mr Clucee proposed a Committee of three members, and Mr Joughin seconded. The Attorney-General: Is that necesary? Mr Cruickshank: It is a very simple matter, and there is some urgency, having regard to the approaching season. The Attorney-General: As learned counsel has said, the matter is of an exceedingly simple character. The by-laws arc made under the Act of 1809 for the prevention of cruelty to and protection of children. They relate to the hours during which children of particular ages e.ay be in public places for tho purpose of Felling articles or giving performances for the purpose of earning money, and these provisions aro in the interests of decency and order, and to prevent the demoralisation of children by being at misceinly hours in public places. Mr J. R. Cowell: How many by-laws are there? The Receiver-General: It seems to me that by- laws of this sort., which create offences, ought certainly to be examined by a Committee of this Court before they become law. They may not be in acoordance with the Act. Certainly we ought to have copies of the by-laws before us before giving our sanction to them. Mr Goldsmith: I support the Attorney-Gen. era'. This matter is urgent, and the Corporation are pressing for these by-laws to be,passed. They arc not very long; surely we can pass them without referring them to a Committee. There will be a considerable loss of time if they are referred. Mr Qualtrough seconded the motion, Mr R. Clucas: They should be put in force immediately. No time should be lost, It is a

Street Trading by Child' en. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. 533 great loss to the population it has not been done before. The Governor ; I agree they should be passed at once. The Attorney-General: If any of them are not according to the Act, the Court will hold them ultra vires at once, and persons can raise the point at any time that they are not within the scope of the Act. The Vioar-General: But the magistrates will have all the responsibility. Counsel read the marginal notes of the by- laws. Mr Cowley: I support the motion for the passing of these by-laws. I believe they are largely on the lines of those adopted in England, with very marked success. In Liverpool, only a short time ago, the passing of by-laws, almost word for word with these, was attended with the most beneficial result. The Vicar-Ge.neral: How do you propose these by-laws aro to be enforced? `Mr Cowley : I think it is largely by the de- privation of the badges. The Speaker: I do not desire to oppose this motion, because I see the great urgency of it ; at the same time I must protest against matters of this kind, which are not on the agenda, being rushed through. If we are to be called upon to pass matters like this, we should• at least have the opportunity of seeing them. (Hear, hear.) The Governor: I intend to see that done, if possible- These things sometimes come in at the last minute, and it would be a pity to ex- clude a thing which ought to be settled at once. Deemster Kneen: I urge that the matter should be disposed of to-day. It. is opposed by the Re- ceiver-General, whose by-laws to-day pleased without reference to a Committee. Why should a distinction be made with reference to by-laws proposed by another public body? The fact is this is the worst possible tribunal to deal with these things; they ought to be referred to some Board, and not to the Court. There is no strong reason for postponing them. If they are to be amended, they can be amended hereafter if there is hardship. Mr J. R. Cowell: I quite agree with his Hon- our, but, at the same time, I want to qualify my agreement. I.cannot agree with the inten- Street Trading by Chihli en. 534 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900. lien of the Attorney-General, who wished to urge these matters through because they were urgent and were likely to he beneficial. I have' noticed for a considerable time in this Court a desire at the last hour to rush a thing through, and 20 reasons are given why it is rushed. If these by-laws are urgent, and it is desirable they should he discussed and passed, we should be prepared to sacrifice a little more of our time, and deal with them properly. They may look very innocent, but there may be very considerable danger in them. Mr Cadman : I would like to ask whether one of these by-laws is that no maimed child should be licensed. Mr Cruickshank: That a child applying to be licensed shall not be unfit through being sickly, blind, deaf, dumb, or mentally deficient. The discretion would ho left, to the licensing author- ity to judge as to the amount of deformity, and su on, which should disqualify the child from trading. Tho Attorney-General: I suppose, really, the object of that is to prevent begging, and exhibiting deformity under the pretence of selling. The Receiver-General: As the Doemstar has referred to me, I think our by-laws came under a very different ohms. Four days ago every member of this Court had a paper showing, not only what the actual change in the by-law was but showing the by-laws as it stood at the present moment. These by-laws must be made under an Act passed a year ago, and I think this Court might have a little time to judge whether they approved of them or not. Mr Qualtrough: I do not think this Court should be asked to take a leap in the dark. We have heard the by-laws read over, but no member of the Court could judge the actual meaning or effect of them. It has been a standing order of this Court to appoint a Committee to investigate and look into such matters, and I do not think there is any reason why we should not allow this to follow its right and proper, and lawful course. Mr J. D. Clams: Seeing that this Aot was promulgated on the 5th July last, how is it this matter was not gone into before? Mr Cruickshank: I am not able to say at the moment-. After all I will have to ask the Court not to pass the by-laws now. I find thorn is an important particular that requires to be soen to. (Laughter.)

• Street Trading by Children, TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1990. 535

Thu motion that a Committee of throe be appointed was then agreed to, and the Committee was elected as follows: Dempster Kneen, the Re- ceiver-General, and Mr Goldsmith.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BY-LAWS. AIR-SPACE IN COW HOUSES. Deemster Kneen presented the report of the Local Government Board on certain by-laws made by Parish Commissioners, and referred to them on 21st March. He said the by-laws as to air- space wens similar to those formerly approved the Board, and they were executed by the several Boards of Commissioners of Batlaugh, Jurby, Lezayre, Bride, and Andreas. Mr Qualtrough: Do the Local Government Board intend these by-laws to apply to the whole Island? Deemster Kneen : We will expect, as a matter of course, that they should be made applicable to all the other parishes, and I believe it is a fact that all the other parishes have approved of them practically in the form in which they now stand, I move that the by-law submitted by the Parish Commissioners of Ba'laugh, and executed with the seal of the Board, now laid before the Court, be confirmed. Mr Goldsmith seconded the motion, and it was carried. Doemster Kneen proposed a similar motion with regard to the parish of Jurby, and it was seconded by Mr J. R. Cowell, and carried. Similar motions were proposed by Deemster Kneen, seconded by Mr J. R.. Cowell, and carried, with respect to the parishes of Lezayre, Bride, and Andreae.

LAXEY AND ()MOHAN VILLAGE DISTRICTS. Mr Maitland handed in the report of the Committee appointed in January, 11399, to consider the petitions of the Village Districts of Onchan and Laxey. He said the original members of the Committee were Deemstor Gill, one of the members for Garff, and himself. Deem- ster Gill died, and the Attorney-General was nominated a member of the Committee in pis place, but did not see his way to sign the report. The memaining members of the Com- mittee had signed it, and he moved that the report be printed and circulated. - • — Local Government By- Laws. —Laxey and On chan Village Districts. 536 TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900.

The Attorney.General: My only reason for not signing the report was that I refused to commit myself to a report, not having heard the evidence and arguments adduced before the Committee. I thought it was inexpedient to ask the other members of the Committee to traverse the same road over again. I did go through the papers that were submitted to me, in order to make some suggestions as to the form of the report, and I had no objection per- sonally to the report itself. Mr Korruish seconded the motion, and it was carried.

THE INJEBREliK ROAD. Mr Maitland read a petition of residents in Baldwin and the parish of Michael requesting an alteration in the road between those places. The petitioners asked for a diversion of the present road to a route from the estate of Ard- whallan to the terminus of the present road on Colder Mountain, together with the removal of an iron gateway. The hon. member having read the petition, it was pointed out that the petition should have been presented to the Highway Board, and the G6vcrnor handed the petition to the Receiver- General as Chairman of the Board—the latter remarking that the cost of the proposal, if carried out, would be £2,500.

DOUGLAS DRAINA E. Mr J. R. Cowell: I present the report of the Committee on Douglas Drainage. The Commit- tee originally appointed consisted of his Honour the late Clerk of the Bolls, Mr Mylrea, Colonel Anderson, Mr 3. T. Cowell. and myself. A very brief report. was drawn up by Lhe late Clerk of the Rolls, which, I think, was lie only document we could discover. That report was considers hardly sufficient, and only on Friday last I was asked to endeavour to present a report to the. Court lu-day. I have Written this report, but I am sure that the substance of it is such that Sir Alured Dumbell would have been in perfect accord with. We have not the signature of Mr J. T. Cawed, who is on the other side of the water. With that exception the report is unani- mously signed. Had there been any occasion for it., we might have been in a position to grant- the prayer of the petition to-night; but I am-

The Ihjehrec k head.—Douglas Drainage. TYNWALD COURT, May 29, 1900,, 537 told it is not absolutely urgent. This report 'a in the direction of giving full power for he further. grant of money asked far, and also increasing the sum by £10,000. I beg to move that the report be printed and circulated. Mr Iterriiish seconded the motion, and it was agreed to.

POSTPONED BUSINESS. It was ngreed to postpone the appointment of Committees with reference to the GovernmenT licuse property, and the publication of debates, to the next. sitting of the Court.

THE FINANCIAL PROPOSALS. The Governor : I wish I could have brought my financial statement before the Court a little earlier, but this letter will show it has been rather hard to g4t, it so soon, for the letter con- senting to the estima.,,,es only reached ma on Saturday, and a Bill was laid on the table of the House of Commons to carry out my proposals. Again, the Treasury have anly just consented to the £1,000 being given to the Manx Northern Railway. My tetter was sent asking their eon. sent on April 30th, and my reply on:y came yes- terday, There is always some delay in London. I hope ,some day I shall he aide to get over this, cud get out documents more readily. This concluded the htuiness betore the Court.

Fostponcd Btniness.--The Fit edictal Propesa's