[27 JuLy, 1948.-

2; House, 4; and Printing, 2. 1 now ask MOTION-CONDOLENCE. the House to make those appointments. I2te 21on. WV. D. Johnson, M.L.A. Hon. A4. L. LOTON: I call for ballots to THE PREMIER (Hon. D. R. 'MoLarty- fill the various vacancies. Mu rrty-Welli ngton) 14.32]: I move- Ballots taken. That this House desires to place on its rec- ords its profouad sense of the loss sustained in Result of Reliefs. the passing of the late Hon. William Dartaell Johnson, a member of this Rouse, and that an The ballots resulted as follows:- expresalon of tile sincerest sympathy of memn- bers be conveyed to his widow and fatally by Standing Orders.-Tha President, the Mr. Speaker. Chairman of Committees, the Chief Sec- retary (Hon, H. S, W. Parker), Hon. C. F. I regret the necessity for moving the Baxter, and H-on. G, Fraser. wiotion. The late Mr. Johnson -passed away during the Parliamentary recess. He was a Library.-The President, Hon. J. G. His- New Zealander by birth and came to this lop, and Hon. A. Thomson. State in the 90's. He was first elected as Howm.-The President, Hon. J. A. Dim- member for Kalgoorlie in 1901, when he mnitt, Hon. W. R. Hall, Hon. Sjr Charles entered the Fourth Parliament. At the Latham, and Hon. C. H. Simpson. time of his death, he represented Guildford- Midland in the Nineteenth Parliament, an Prinfing.-The President Hon. W. J. indication of an active political life over a Mann, and Hon. E. H. Gray. period of 47 years, during which he was a member of this Assembly. I understand House adjourned at 6.2 p.m. that at the time of his passing he was the only remaining member who had served in Parliament when it was located somewhere in the Terrace prior to its transfer to PUzishrthna AksrnblIT. Harve.-t-ten-raee. Thec late M4r. Johnson held responsible Tuesday, 27th July, 1948. positions as a Minister of the Crown in the CONTENTS. Daglish Government and in the Seaddan Page Government. He also served as Speaker Notion :Condolence, Ron. W. D. Johnson, and for a time was Leader of the Opposi- M.L.A...... 17 Chairmen (Temporary) of Committees.. IS tion. In short, he had a distinguished Auditor General's report, Section "8, " 1947 18 Parliamentary and public career. He was Questions : Railways (a) as to costing a kee-n student of polities and a hard worker system for refreshment reoms 18 (b) as to standard gauge, Fremantle- in tha interests of the State and of his Kalgoorlie .. 19 constituents. He was anxious at all times (et )Bus services, as ..to South-West to maintain the highest traditions o-f our costing system .. 1s Parliamentary and demo-!ratie institutions. Timber, as to exports and Imports .. 19 Coal, as to Black Diamond Leases, We all know that he was a keen family man Collie ...... 19 and a great lover of his home. I am suro Building supplies and shipping (a) as to all members extend their sympathy to his report by Inspector Hopktnson ... 19 (b) as to officers stationed In Eastern family in their great loss. States...... 20 Fruit cases, as to local production and MON. -F. J. S. WISE (Gascoyne) [4.34]: Importations...... 20 In seconding and supporting the motion I Court eases, as to prci;gs and would like to point out that in the passing- counsel engaged.. 20 Electoral districts, as to report on re-.. c-f the late William Dartnell Johnson the distribution of seats...... 21 Party I represent has lost the services of Sitting days and hours ...... 21 it for a Government business, precedence...... 21 one who had been associated with Committees for the session...... 21 life time, The late Mr. Johnson alwayt Bill : Supply (No. 1) £8,900,000, Standing playe~d a very active part on this side of Orders Suspension, Messae, all stages... 21 the House in association with members of this Party. For many years he was Chair- The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30 ifan of our Parliamentary Labour Party. p.m., and read prayers. In debate, we always knew that the alert is 18[ASSEMBLY.]

mind of the late honourable member gave The MINISTER replied: him, equipment with which to counter many (1) Detail costs for each refreshment criticisms in opposition to the views he room are not kept. Refreshment services, held-and he held his views strongly. He including the canteen at Weislipool, are expressed his thoughts forcefully, and I amn costed as a whole, and results for 1947-48 certain that in tb0 records of the proceed- will be tabled when available. ings of this Parliament 'will be found many valuable contributions to the welfare of this (2), (3) and (4) Answered by No. 1. community in the speeches he made. The Premier has spoken of his attributes (b) As to Standard Gauge, Fremnantle- as a citizen. His private life was one of Kalgoorlie. whi't-, he was very proud, and in that Mr. GRAHAM asked the Minister for regard he played a very important part in Railways: leadership in things as they should be in Will he make a statement to the House domestic life, I am sure that all of us the position generally of nego- share the viewpoint of the Premier that this regarding House sustained a great loss in the passing tiations in connection with the standard of our colleague. railway gauge proposals between Fremantle and Kalgoorlie? Question put and passed; members stand- ig. The MINISTER replied: As a result of the findings of the recent Royal Commission on HRailways, the matter CHAIRMEN (TEMPORARY) or of securing satisfactory conditions for the aOMMITTEEB. conversion of our 3 ft. 6 in. gauge, or as Mr. SPEAKER: I desire to announce much of it as is desirable, to the standard that I have appointed Mr. Hill, Mr. Brand 4 ft. 81/ in. gauge has heen taken up with and Mr. Triat to be temporary Chairmen the Commonwealth Government, and nego- of Committees for the session. tiations are still going on. The Fremantle- Kalgoorlie section is included in these pro- posals. AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT. Section "B," 1947. (c) Bus Services, As to South-West Costing Mr. SPEAKER: I have received from system. the Auditor General a copy of Section Mr. REYNOLDS (without notice) asked "B of his report on the Treasurer's the Minister for Railways: statement of Public Accounts for the finan- (1) Has the Railway Department a cost- cial year ended the 30th June, 1047. This ing system for each new bus service es- will be laid on the Table of the House. tablished in the South-Westl (2) If so, will he have tabled a statement QUESTIONS. indicating income and expenditure for each RAILWAYS. service? (a) As to Costing System for Refreshment The MHINISTER replied:- The answers to Rooms. the questions asked by the hon. member oil Mr. frEYNOLDS asked the Minister for Thursday are as follows:- Railways: (1) Yes, but I am not entirely satisfied (1) Has the Railway Department a cost- with its efficiency and it is the intention of ing system for each railway refreshment the Government, with a view to ensuring room in the South-WestY that in future accounts are satisfactorily (2) If so, will he table a statement of kept, to introduce legislation bringing Rail- income and expenditure for each place?9 way Department finances under the control (3) Has the Railway Department a cost- of the Auditor General. ing system for the canteen at Welsbpooli This aspect constituted one of the reasons (4) If so, will be table a statement of why certain matters were referred to the income and expenditure for that canteenl recent Royal Commission. (27 JULY, 1948.)]1 19

(2) Yes; and the following figures have (3) The imports Of timber into Western been supplied to me by the Railway Depart- Australia for the year ended 20th June, ment: 1948, were:-From Eastern States, 1,769 Railway Road Bus Services-outh Western loads; from oversea. (for 11 months ended District-Earnings and Working Expenses 31st 31ay, 1948), 1,250 loads. -July 1st 1947, to 31st May, 1948. Timber imported into Western Australia Pertb-Kojonup-Crambrook. was used mainly for the manufacture of furniture, joinery and for special purposes, but small quantities may have been utilised Earnings 9,879 for building. Working Expenses 8,123 Perth-Bunbury. (4) Export of Case Materials.-Accord- Earnings 8,061 ing to the Statistical Department, timber Working Expenses 5,428 cut to size for mnaking boxes amounting to Bunbury-Collie. 95 loads was exported to the other States Earnings 8,981 for the year ended 30th June, 1948.

Working Expenses - 4,405 The purpose for which the timber export- Bunbury-Busselton-Caves HIouse- ed was to be used, whether for cheese cases, Flinders Bay-Nannup. butter boxes, etc., is not known.

Earnings . 7,193 Workings Expenses . 6,449 COAL. As to Black Diamond Leases, Collie. TIMBER. Hon. F. J. S. WISE asked the Premier: As to Exports and Imports. Will he lay on the Table of the House Mr. REYNOLDS asked the Minister for the files dealing with the coal leases at Forests: Collie known as the Black Diamond leases, (1) How many loads of timber were ex- which have reference to the taking over by the Electricity Commission during the ported to each State for the year ended the 30th June, 1948? time of the Labour Government, and the subsequent handing back of these leases (2) How many loads of timber were ex- to Amalgamated Collieries by the Liberal- ported to countries outside Australia, and Countzy Party Government? how many loads to each? The PREMIER replied: (8) How much building timber was Im- I suggest the Leader of the Opposition ported into Western Australia for the year adopt the usual procedure and move that ended the 30th June, 1948? the files in question be laid on the Table (4) What quantity of timber did we ex- of the House. port to other States in the way of ease materials, i.e., cheese cases, butter boxes, BUILDING SUPPLIES AND SHIPPIING. etc.?I (a) As to Report by Inspector Hopkinson. The MINISTER replied: Hon. F~. J. S. WISE asked the Premier: (1) Loads of timber exported to each Will he table the reports made in Sep- State for the year ended 80th June, 1948, tember and October, 1946, by Inspector were :-Victoria-9,760 loads, including 306 Hopkinson, following his inquiries in all loads sleepers; South Australia-30,915 the Eastern States except Tasmania, into loads, including 9,240 loads sleepers; New the availability of building supplies, and of South Wales--69 loads; Northern Territory, shipping, and the varying systems of con- 15 loads. trol in the different States 9 (2) Information concerning the export of timber to countries outside Australia for The PREMIER replied: the twelve months ended 30th June, 1948, As this report was marked confidential or for individual oversea. countries is not to the hon. gentleman wvhen he was Pre- available, but for the 11 months to 31st May, mier, I suggest he peruse it at the Pre- 1948, exports amounted to 27,750 loads. mier's Office. 20 20[SSEMIBLY.]

t (b) Ats o Officers Stationed in Eastern was fixed at 800 loads per month for the States. year enided 30th June, 1948. To this must Hon. F. J1. S. WVISE asked the Premier: be added approximately 400 loads a month (1) During the war period, the Labour from small mills over which no control has Government appointed a part-time officer been exercised. in 'Melbourne, and later appointed full-time (2) The total number of all types of ease, offleers in Melbourne and Sydney, to produced and delivered during tbe year is arrange for supply of materials, and for not known. The main sawmillers estimated their despatch from the Eastern States. being able to produce 950,000 apple duimp Will lie advise the House whether these cases for the 1948 pack, whereas actual de- appointments were justified in the light of liveries from these sawmillers were 607,000. results obtained? There is, however, a considerable carry-over (2) If monthly reports are made, will for next season. The total number of apple hie arrange to make themn available to the dlump cases delivered through the Case Dis- HousJ.e? tributors' Association was 824,850, while it The PRE~iER replied: is estimated that an additional quaditity of (1) These offleers under the conditions from 50,000 to 00,000 was purchased by then obtaining were not able to obtain more growers direct from small mills. than limited results. The Department of (3) For next season, ice., the 1949 apple Supply and Shipping set tip in last year pack, an order for 200,000 white wood cases has provided an organisation through which has already been placed overseas, And con- the State's representatives have been able sideration is now being given to importing to iinfluence considerably expanded supplies an additional similar quantity. to this State' of a wide range of necessary (4) Imports for 1947-48 were: :395,000 (ommodities. apple eases an111 ,000 grape cases. Imports (2) A monthly report would entail eon- for 1946-47 were: 201,500 apple cases. siderale work and is not justified as aldvive dumap cases of sponsored good.; to lie transported by seit (5) The landed cost of apple imported during 1947-48 was approximately or rail is received daily from the Liaison 3s. per case. 6,000 grape eases wvere landed Officer.,, Shipping Companies and Eastern in Western Australia at about 4s. 2d. ,er .Stato,.- manufacturers, and information of 1 case (including 4d. to be refunded on the same ran be given to any Member of Parlia- export of the case). ment at the Department of Supply and Shipping. The price of the eases, imported during FRUIT CASES. 1,946-47 is not known bot, according to the Forests Department annual report, imports As to Local Production and ImIportationis. of timber from oversea cut to size for 'Mr. REYNOLDS asked the Minister for making boxes were as follow: Forests: Canada: 15,367 enbe feet valued ait (1) What was, the es timated production £6,698. prourainme of fruit eases for the year Malaya (British) : 197 cubic feet valned ended the .10th Jane, 1943? at £104. (2) What was the actual number Sweden: 86,522 cubic feet valued at delivered ? £30,138. (3) How many fruit eases, are we imi- The cost of cases to hieimported for as~e porting froin ovrea this year? in the 1948-49 apple pack will be slightly (4) Hlow many did wve import for the higher than for the 1947-48 imp[orts,. 1947 season and for 19461? (5) What was the landed cost er ease COLTRT CASES. for each of these years,, and what does As to Proceedingsi and Counsel Engaged. he expect the cost to be for 1948? Hon. .1.T. TONK(IN asked the Attorney The 'MINISTER replied: Gleneral: (I1)The prog-ramime or production of all (1) Since the present fl1overnment has fruit cases applying to the main sawmllers been in office, in what number of cases has [27 JuLY, 1948.] 221

Court proceedings been undertaken by the GOVERNMENT BUSINESS, Crown 9 PRECEDENCE. (2) In how many such cases was outside On motion by the Premier, ordered: That counsel engaged? on Tuesdays and Thursday, Government business shall take precedence of all miotions The ATTORNEY GENERAL replied: and Orders of the Day. (1) 1,715. (2) 71. COMMITTEES FOR THE SESSION. ELECTORAL DISTRICTS. On motion by the Premier, Sessional Committees were appointed as follows:- As to Report on Redistribution of Seats. Librory.-Mv~r. Speaker, Air. Kimmo and Mfr. GRAHAM asked the Attorney Hon. J. T. Tonkin. General: Standing Orders--Mr. Speaker, the (1) What stage has been reached regard- Chairman of Committees, Hon. E. H. H. ing the redistribution of seats for the State Hall, Hon. J. B. Sleeman and Mr. Rodoreda. Parliamient? House.-Mr. Speaker, '.%r. Cornell, Mr. (2) When is it anticipated that the Graham and Mr. Styants. determinations of the Commission will be Pr~rnting.-Mr. Speaker, Mr. Grayden and made known? Mr. Triat. The ATTORNEY GENERAL replied: (1) and (2) The Electoral Commissioners' BILL-SUPPLY (No. 1), £3,800,000. report k in the hands of the Government Standing Orders Suspension. Printer and it is expected to be ready for publication at the end of next week. On motion by the Premier, resolved: Thaqt so much of the Standing Orders be sus- pended as is necessary to enable resolutions SITTING DAYS AND HOURS. from the Committees of Supply and of Ways ,and Nicans to be reported and adopted on the THE PREMIER (Hon. D. R. MeLarty- sam~e day on whicl, they shall have passed those Murray-Wellington) [4.59] :I move- Committees and also the passing of a Supply Bill through all its stages in one dlay, and to That the House, unless otherwise ordered, enable the business aforesaid to be entered upon shall meet for the desptchel of business on and dealt with before the Address-in-reply in Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays at adopted. 4.30 pmn. and] shall sit until 6.15 pm. if neces- sary, and, if requisite, from 7.80 pmn. onwards. Message. Message from the Lieut.-Governor re- HON. F. J. S. WISE (Ciascoyne) [5.0]: ceived and read recommending appropria- This motion is slightly different from the tion for the purposes of the Bill. one that was moved at this stage last ses- sion. It was forecaist at that time that the Government would very quickly revert to in; Committee of Supply. the hours which were previously observed The House resolved into eommittee of and which are those mentioned in this Supply, -Mr. Perkins in the Chair. motion. In all these matters members on this side of the House are anxious to THE PREMIER AND TREASURER assist the Government. If I desired to be (Hon. D. H. MeLarty-M1urray-AWelling- irrelevant, I could say that, when some ton) [5.4] : 1 move- membersi now on the Government Bench That there be granted to His Majesty on ae- sat on this side of the House, they were count of the services of the year ending the anxious for longer hours and more ses- 30t1% June, 1949, a sum not exceeding £3,800,- sions, but I know that you, Mr. Speaker, 000. would not like me to continue any cm- Supply is required to carry on the services nient along those lines; therefore I sup- of the State until the Estimates are passed port the motion. by Parliament. This is the usnal Supply Que~tion put and passed. Bill that is broughit down at this staige of 22 22ASSEMBLY] the session. The amount to be authorised Appropriation Bill was passed on the 18th by the Bill is £ 3,800,000 an d is made up as Devember. The practice for some years, follows:- though by no means the invariable practice, £ has been to treat Supply Bills formally and Consolidated Revenue Fund . 3 ,000,000 for a general discussion of the financial (General Loan Fund 300,000 position to take place on the Estimates, I Treasurer's Advance 300,000 do not intend to follow the practice of the - past of treating Supply Bills, formally, par- Total 3,800,000 ticularly in view of the deterioration in the - State's finances Had the Treasurer desired By the corresponding Supply Act of last to give the House any information or to year, Parliament granted the following express any views upon the deterioration in sums:- the State's finances since introducing his £ Budget last year, this was his opportunity Consolidated Revenue Fund 2,400,000 to do so. However, be gave us no such (leneral Loan Fund 400,000 information, but simply told us in a very Treasurer's Advance 300,000 formal way whence the sums will come to make good the Supply provided for in the Total 3,100,000 Bill. The amount provided for in the Bill is a While Supply is sought for the san ecperiod record figure of £3,800,000. If. this oppor- this year, namely, a period of two to three tunity were allowed to pass without corn- months, the amount is greater hecause of meat on the situation, a year will have rising costs which have had to be mect, those elapsed before the Premier gives us any costs including wages. A4 confe renee of review of his first year's financial opera- Premiers is to be held about th,a middle tions. This, admittedly, is not an unusual of August at which the subject of Corn- course to adopt where Treasurers have rnonwealth-State financial relations hips will occupied the position year after year, but be discussed. After that meieting, I I submit that when there has been such a hope to be in a position to finalise. and.' pre- drift, it is important that some explanation sent the Budget and the Loan Estimnates. be given and some opinions he expressed. This Bill will merely provide tIae funds The Supply Bills themselves show the trend necessary to enable the Governinen .t to pro- of the State's finances. In 1945, the No. 1 ceed with its normal activities in t he mean- Supply Bill submitted to Parliament was timne. As usual, complete information, 0, for a sum of £2,500,000; in 1047, provision the State's finances will be given when the was made for £2,700,000; last year the Budget is placed before Parliam.eat, and amount was £3,100,000, and this year the members. will then be afforded the custom- Premier is seeking a sum of £3,600,000. The ary opportunity for a full disen ssion on only reason offered by the Premier for the the financial position. tremendous increase is that of rising costs. Before I resume my seat, I shall show con- HON. F. 3. s. WISE (Gascoyn'e) [L5.7]: elusively that there are many other reasons, The SupplyuBill (No. 1) last iear was This tremendous increase in expenditure, introduced on the 5th August, which was taking a line througoh the years I hare the second day of that session, and the quoted when Supply Bills sought approval Estimates were introduced on the 9th for much smnaller amounts, shows very October. This Supply Bill, as the *Premier clearly that the Premier is anticipating a has pointed out, is to cover the per 'iod from Budget for the year 1046-49 with a volume the 1st July to about September, *If the of at least £20,000,000. That is a very Estimates have not then been p2iassed, a obvious conclusion to be drawn from the second Supply Bill will doubtless be intro- increased amount he is seeking under duced. If that is so, that will be our first this Bill. An increase in the Budgef opportunity to discuss relevantly financial volume would not be a matter for matters generally and the financial *position great concern if the amounts of expendi- of the State. ture and revenue were approximately the As I have said, last year the Buidget was same, or if there were any suggestion as introduced on the 0th October, and the to where additional revenues were to come [27 JULY, 1948] 223 f row, particularly if there were any un- £1,000,000 from the Commonwealth, the de- explored or untapped sources of revenue. ficit last year would have been £1,352,082. While I admit that it is not customary on Before the Minister for Housing gets in his a Supply Bill to give the fullest informa- interjection, I say that the dependence now- tion in that regard, I say that because of ad ays solely on a beneficent Gmanta Com- the deterioration in the finances of the mission is a very great risk, as it will en- State, it is incumbent upon the Premier to courage the drift and apply no correctives. give the Chamber and the public some ex- The Minister for Housing: I do not want planation as to where all this drift is going to disappoint the Leader of the Opposition. to end. I was just thinking about 1945-46, when The drift is so serious that the public the deficit was £928,000. must very soon begin to take notice, The trend is a very dangerous one. Last year Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Yes. That was the Premier enjoyed the biggest income ever incurred willingly and deliberately. It is derived from revenue in the history of the a deficit for which I made no apology, a State, namely, £17,710,310, and be expended defliit which I deliberately incurred at the an all-time record sum of £18,062,392. If end of the war. I took over a week before members will take the trouble to study the the war ended and I left with this distinc- revenue and expenditure tables of the past, tion-I say it in all humility-that I was they will find that these amounts were ap- the only Treasurer ever to finish with a proximately double the sums of revenue and balanced] budget. I knew of the weakness expenditure in 1033 when the Hon. Philip in Section 6 of the Taxation Re-imbursement Collier bevame Treasurer. Last year the Act, which gave me that opportunity. I Premier anticipated, according to the had first discussed with the Grants Corn- Budget tables, approximately £15,750,000 mission whether valid expenditure, because net revenue, and he received, as I have said, of the cessation of the war, would be con- £17,710,000. He enjoyed 50 per cent, more sidored by, it for re-imbursement. money than -was handled by the Govern- ment of 1941-42. He spent £E7,000,000 more Mr. Leslie: I have not heard the Treasurer than was spent in 1938-39 and £3,000,000 CPoloOse for this deficit, either. more than was spent by his predecessor iii Ifon. F. J. S. WISE: Whether he apolo- 1946-47. gises, or not, I an afraid the hon. member 1 suggest those figures of themselves war- interjecting will hear a great deal of this rant the attention of all persons interested drift which, if uncontrolled, will be the in any way in the future finances of the quiek-st step to unification that I can think State, certainly of all persons who regardl of. The State's trust funds must be in a, them as vital to the State's future, moro' very unhealthy condition. It is obvious, if particularly if one examines the Budget one esamines the balance sheet of the State, tables to ascertain the soures~ of the re- in Table 1 of the Budget Tables, that the venuie which the Premier enjoysed. "The trust funds must have been seriously ex- WVest Australian," in conmenting upon theL ploited to enable the State to finance pend- close of the Premier's financial year, had] a ing the arrival of that timely £1,000,000. very interesting article headed "I_%eteriora- There is every sign in the public figures of tion in State Finances." "The West Avs- the State to indicate that we are rapidly tralian" is very rarely ungenerous to the anproaching the circumstanes in which we present Government even in its headlines4. lost the 'Savings Bank of Western Aus- yet that is the heading, in very. l-rge tyic.. tralia, That is where we are getting to. it is time, therefore, that the Gnvernnei't I will tell the member for 'Mount Marshall had more reminders, such as the one in before I resume my scat that his state-- "The West Australian," of the need for ruents and arguiments will not bear much some very drastic action. examination. It is strange, yet a fact, that Liberal Treasurers have been responsible I think thbere is pro doubt that the volume of this Supply Bill, judging from the final for £9,000,000 of our total deficit since 1900. figures of Treasurers in past yea rs, suiggests The Minister for Housing: Does that in- a Budget of at least £20,000,000. flad it clude the cost Of the Coolgardie water niot been for the supplementary grant oif schemnel 24 24[ASSEMBLY.]

Hon. F. .J. S. WTISE: -No. I shall be system of taxation," With that point of very generous, because I wish to be fair view the Premier is in agreement. in all things. From the year 1916 to the The Premier: So you say. I ntever said year 1924 the Liberal Governments incurred that. deficits amounting to £C4,779,000. In the Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Yes. I will quote following years the Labour Governments in- from the Premier's Policy speech. curred a deficit of under £1,000,000, namely, The Premier: All right. £978,000. In) the following three years the Liberal-Country Party Government in- Ron. F. J. S. WISE: The Premier said curred a deficit of £C3,842,000. In short, in reg'ard to taxation that the policy of the during the 20 years that Labour Govern- Liberal Party wvas that the States sh ould nments. were in office from 1916, they in- as soon as possible resume coutrol of their curred a deficit of £2,500,000; but during- own finances.. That is in the second para- the 11 years that the Liberal Government graph of page 3 of the Premier's Policy wits in power, it incurred a deficit of speech. £8,621,000-never a surplus. The Premier: From the day I came here, and before, I have consistently advocated There was also a very big increase in the that there should be a convention between Loan indebtedness of the State. Ia 1916, the Commonwealth and the States to draw the Loan indebtedness per head was up a new Financial Agreement. £109 19,,. 9d.; before that Government re- linquished office it was £146 13s. The in- Hon. F. J. S. WVISE: I do not mind ereases show that, as surely as there is a wvhat excuses the Premier makes 11ow. That Liberal Government in office in this State, is what he said in his Policy speech, of the per capita debt substantially in- which I have a copy. I have also0 a copy creases. Members can check the figures of the Policy speech of the Deputy Premier; in Return No. 5, submitted in the Budget he did not give it to me, but I have it, The Tables of last year. They are most expres- Premier gave me his. sive of what we can expect and what we The Minister for Housing: Is that not are now experiencing. There is the pros- your policy? pect again this year of a deficit which will Hon. F. J. S. WISE: The Minister for have to be met on a sinking fund and in- Housing cannot get me into that position. terest basis as an annual charge on revenue. He is suggesting that some aspects of the Unless we can show something in the na- Liberal-Country Party policy were copied ture of an asset-as I will analyse at a from ours, but the hon. gentleman cannot later stage-that is commensurate or com- get me to subscribe to this one, that the parable with the expenditure, the drift will States shall as soon as possible resume con- become all the more serious. I repeat that trol of their own finances. it is not possible to make the excuse that The Minister for Housing: Do you dis- all the years in which deficits have been in- agree with it? curred have been bad years. Some of them have been the most prosperous in the his- Hon. F. J. S. WISE: I will analyse it tory of the State. and show how necessary it is to disagree with it. From his interjection, I take it In the first six years of the Liberal Gov- that the Minister for Housing agrees with ernment to which I referred, wool was at it. The Premier does not say so now. Ap- its highest price before the last remark- parently he does not 'wish that sentence to able price. Yet in those years high deficits be taken as his view today. I take it that were recorded. I repeat that the Treas- he does not now wish, notwithstanding Mr. urer is slipping into a state of complete Downing's desire, that the State Govern- dependence on the Commonwealth. I should meats and the Commonwealth Government lie to quote a comment, with which the should -revert to the pre-war system of sep- Premier agrees, by the Liberal Party Pre- arate taxation. sident, Mr. Downing. It appears in 'The The Premier: The sentence is qu~ite all Daily News" of the 12th July. Mr. Down- right. ing said, "The Commonwealth and State Hon. F. J. S. WISE: The Premier does Governments should revert to the pre-war not agree with it now. [27 JULY, 1948.] 252

The Premier: Not unless an agreement is £8,412,188. It is necessary that the com- reached defining the whole field of taxation. munity of Western Australia be told that it Hon. F, .J. WIISE: The view of the is now necessary to raise at least £5,000,000 President of the Liberal Party did coincide from State taxes after the Commonwealth with the v'iew of the Premier until very has raised its needs in this State. That is recently. I take it that the Premier now the vital point. does not want his taxation rights restored. Mrt. Leslie: The Commonwealth has tres- I say to him that if on the one hand he passed into our field, desires to have his taxing rights restored Hon. F. J. S. WISE: By how much? and a separate system of taxation to obtain Mr. Leslie: Considerably. for each of the States and the Common- wealth, and on the other hand he desires to Hon, F. J. S. "WISE: In what spheres raise more money from taxation in Western has it trespassed? Australia than is now being collected from Mr. Leslie: Into income tax. the Western Australian taxpayer;, he does Hou_. F. J. S. WISE: I will be quoting not quite know where he is. I say so for shortly from the Commonwealth Constitu- this reason, that the drift in his finances tion s9howing that the Commonwealth has suggests that if our taxing rights were re- certain rights in regard to taxation, and let stored to u6s, taxation in Western Australia there he no question that that was decidoA would substantially and sharply increase. by the- challenge of the States in the High That is something about which the people Court of Australia to uniform taxation. of the State need to be reminded as fre- Mr. Leslie: Yes, but the framers of the quently as possible. With the present hand- Constitution never anticipated that the Com- ling of the finances of the State there is monwealth would exercise its rights to the no alternative if we get our taxing rights excluscion of the States. restored except an immediate and substan- Hon. A. H. Panton: They did not antici- ),ial increase in taxation. pate :wo wars, either. The Minister for Housing: I do not agree with that. Honi. F. J. S. WISE: Whatever was anticipated at the time the Constitution was Hon. F. J. S. WISE: The Minister will framed, the position in fact is tho the Com- have the opportunity of disagreeing, and mionwealthi has a right, prior Co the Sate I will have thle opportunity of replying. We to impose taxation in all the States. I re- have to remember that we will need to raise peat what I said before that Western Aus- £C5,000,000 to meet the existing collections tralia, as at present circumstanced, would from the uniform tax and from our own need toa raise at least £6,000,000 within the minor tax collections. That is in addition State if it had these taxiing rights restored, to any special grants collected under Section and that sum would have to he found after 96 of the Constitution. We had £3,000,000 the Commonwealth had taken its require- from special grants last year. It is all very ments by way of income tax in Western well to he casual about this and suggest Australia. It is all a pretence to say that that it will not mean an increase in taxation, all will be well if our taxing rights are re- but I say definitely that if taxing rights are stored to us. restored to Western Australia, taxation will The Attorney General: You do not want have to increase in a direct as well as an them restored. indirect mianner. So, I would like the Hon. F. Premier, through Mr. Downing, or by him- J. S. WISE; Does the Attorney self, to suggest to us how he is going to General want them restorcdl raise the money if separate taxing rights The Attorney General: I am asking you are restored to us. The total collection by Hon. F. J. S. WISE: I will answer the the Commonwealth from Western Australia Attorney General completely, but I am cer- is something in which every citizen is in- tain he will not commit himself, The Pre- terested. If we care to search the 27th Re- mier, in his Policy speech, suggested that he port of the Commonwealth Commissioner of wanted them restored, hut now he says, "No. Taxation, we will find that for the 1946-47 I inherited$ a healthy Treasury which, under financial year the total Commonwealth tax my direction, has drifted. It will be of no collections from uniform tax amounted to avail lo me to have them restored." That 26 20[ASSEMBLY.]

is the position. The Premier would be in the forthcoming Premiers' Conference and he position if he had them restored. was hopeful that an adjustment would be made a dreadful under which the States would be able to func- Hon. A. R. G. Hawke:- What is the tion without having to appeal to the Common- Attorney General's view? wealth for necessary finance. The Attorney General: What is the view Members have to appreciate that it is by of the Leader of the Opposition? the good grace, not only of the Comm on- Hon. F. J. S. WISE: I am wondering wealth Treasurer, but of all the State Pre- what the Premier meant when he said on miers combined, that this State receives its releasing the figures for 1947-48, that he proportion of the allocation to all States was perturbed at the unhealthy condition of from uniform taxation. I suggested in my the finances which made this State so de- speech on a Supply Bill last year that the pendent on the Commonwealth. Premier should ask for at least £59,000,000 as the allocation to the States, because of The Premier: Are you now satisfied -with this State's needs. But I also pointed out the financial set-tip between the Common- that there was a very great responsibility wealth and the States? upon the State Treasurers to put their own Hon. F. J. S. WISE: No, and I never houses in order before they could expect have been, but I make no apology for my contributions from other States towards attitude. No-one can deny me this, that their revenue. That is what it amounts to. no State Premier or Deputy Premier fought I will show shortly just how much total the Commonwealth more vigorously than I income tax, under the uniform system, is did because of what I considered to he collected in all Australia. That will indi- serioi,~ injustices in connection with the fin- cate how important is the contribution to ancial relationships of the State and Com- Western Australia, per capita, from the monwealth. I made that perfectly clear, other States. But it is also necessary to and although a scurrilous paper in this bear in mind that to improve the financial State said that I sort of went quietly to the position of Western Australia there is a Commonwealth, that surely was disproved need to attend to much more than the re- when the published statement was made of tarn of our revenue from uniform taxation. my last speech at a Premiers' Conference in It is vital, I submit, that this State has Canberra, in which I showed clearly and attention paid, byy the Premier, to himself definitely where I stood. I fought vigor- as Treasurer, and himself only, and not to ously and s;ucceeded in getting the highest have four or five Treasurers trying to give per capita payment of any State. effect to election promises and trying to ex- I manke no apology to anyone, including pend money. That will get this State no- the Attorney General, for my attitude in w-here. This article headed ''Deterioration always strenuously attempting to uphold in State Finances'' shows that £1,000,009 the finorial rights of Western Australia, was provided as a special supplementary Bad Liting sucecessful in getting greater grant from the Commonwealth. I would jpayi nt6s from that source than any other like the Premier, when replying, to indi- State Premier was able to achieve. I was cate to the Committee on what grounds and not s.ntified then and am not now, hut these for what purpose that additional £C1,000,000 loose statements that all will be well if was granted before the financial year our taxing- rights are restored do not seem en ded. Formerly it was necessary, after to ine as beinw in the best interests; of the close of the financial year, to state a the people of Western Australia, and those ease to obtain reimbursement uinder Sec- are (he interests' shout which I am con- tion 6 of the Taxation Reimbursement cerned. I am wondering- what the Premier Act. But on this occasion the Under meant when hie said he was perturbed at Treasurer and, I think, the then Attorney the uniftralthy condition which made this General, went East and asked for mote. State so dependent on the Commonwealth. The Minister for Housing: The Minister There is another aspect mentioned in this for Housing. article of "The AVeqt Australian'' of the 3rd .fuly, when the Premier wats reported Hon. F. J. S. WISE: I said, the then to have said- Attorney General. The whole questinn of Commonwealth and The Minister for Housingy: I had change State flnancial relations would be discussed at my title. [27 JULY, 1048. 227

Hon. F. J. S. WVISE. The 'Minister for for the deficit on other occasions, hrut not Housing, accompanied by the Under Trea- for such a tremendous deficit, and not for surer, stated a ease. I would lie to know such a tremendous loss. I was going to say on what basis the plaint was laid; on what that if the Government is using the rail- basis the extra £:1,000,000 was asked for. ways as the basis for its claims for addi- This Oliver Twist attitude is all very well, tional reimbursements from the Common- but I think we should know some of the wealth, it is something which will not last details, and why more -was asked for, and very long. I am wondering, for example, why only £1,000,000 of the total deficit was if the Premier can tell us whether the repaid. Knowing the Grants Commission new trains-the new Wcstlands--were built as I do-I have reason to know it, having out of revenue or out of loan. bad to appear before it in the interests of The Premier: Yes., this State on many occasions-I am aware that it is necessary not only to state a Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Were they built case, hut, at times, to give certain assur- out of revenue? anees. I take it that certain answers to The Premier: No, out of loan. questions asked by members of the Grants Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Is the Premier (Commission had to be answered and cer- sure of that? tain information given. Without knowing The Premier: Yes. anything, but having to guess froin what the newspaper articles tell me-this article Hon. P. J. S. WISE; j think the Pre- shows clearly that the Railway Department mier is not sure. Since the Treasury has, was responsible for the principal drift in no control over the way the money is spent the State's finances-I suggest that the in the railways, and since we attempted to, Railway Department was made the reason, get that control I am very interested in if not the excuse. that point. I think it would be found, from But I think the Chamber is entitled to an examination of the railway finances, that know just what assurances had to lye given by deliberate intent the rehabilitation of to the Grants Commission because that the railways is, as much as possible, being Commission would say, ''If £1,000,000 is to done oat of revenue, to show a tremendous he forthcoming to assist in balancing your de-ficit in that sphere for the purpose of Budget-and it did not-we expect of you getting those sums recouped from the Com- fcertain thing.'' I have no doubt that the nwealth. 'Minister for Housing was able to give the The Minister for Housing: You are put- GPrants, Commission ample asgurance that ting ideas into my head. in some way or another the State's house would be put in order. I would like to Hcn. F. J. S. WISE: If the 'Minister know whether he did give such an assur- wrants ideas, I can give them to him, but ance, and if so, on what basis it was I can see the Opportunity, if the Treasurer given. It is obvious from this article that has not thought of it before, that the Com- at los.s of £1,127,000 was incurred on the missioner of Railways might have, because railways. Of course, that is only on work- there is no check when there should be on ing expenses. No interest or redemption what could be tremendous and wilful ex- is included in that. travagance on the part of the railways be- cause of no Treasury supervision. The Premier: You are not blaming this Government for that, surely. I think it would be found on analysis that a lot of the work that should be charged Hon. F. J. S. WISE: I will have some- to Loan is, in the Railway Department, thing to say about that shortly, but I can being charged to Revenue. Of course that blame the Government if the Railway De- will be at sort of pipe dream that will very partment is being used as the medium for soon end once the Grants Comm~ission finds, claiming moneys from the Commonwealth as it must find, that those practices are ob- in the way of extra grants. taining. It is all very well for us, on the The Premier: The railways account for basis of under one-halfpenny per ton per our deficit. mile being charged for supeor and about Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Of course they ac- 1.12d. per mile being charged for wheat count for the deficit. They have accounted when the over-all cost of- -railway haulage [4J 28 [ASSEMBLY.] is about 3d., to say, in such a period as this, wealth and State relationships would be that rising costs represent the only reason discussed and an adjustment sought-what for this extraordinary Supply Bill, and that sort of an adjustment does he intend to everything else is to remain static. seek? I think it is very timely jthat the There is another aspect too. If the Rail- public as well as this Chamber should way flcpartment is spending money from have an idea because the Premier knows, Revenue that should legitimately be in its from my background and attitude with the Loan programme, it is possible that there Commonwealth, that we are not going- to be will be some conflict between the regenera- in opposite corners when it comes to a demand for the rights of this State. I tion programme and the standardisation would therefore like to know from him what proposals. If the standardisation of the rail- sort of adj ustments he has in mind. There ways is to take place in our time, if it is are many alternatives for consideration to take place within the next decade, I sug- such as the whole Australian community gest that that is also a reason for a very taking over much more of our indebtedness close examination, by the Treasury and not than was provided for in the Premiers' by the Auditor General, of railway expendi- Plan. There would also he the possibility ture and railway flinances, for unless that is aind the simple way of a greater reimburse- done it will be the instrumentality which menit from uniform tax collections. I feel will be responsible year by year for the there will be demanded of this State, a total deficit. If that instrumentality is not close scrutiny of the possibility of more surveyed fromt the financial angle it is cer- internal collections. tainly not fair to all the taxpayers of this community. That, I say to the Treasurer, The Premier: Exactly what do you mean is one of the aspects in the discussion of by that? Commonwealth-State financial relationships Hon. F. J. S. WISE: From loan invest- that has to be examined and ventilated. ments. I will analyse that in a moment. Does the Chamber think we have an op- In the investments of public money in portunity of reaching an agreement in the Western Australia it is a very important Commonwealth sphere, with all other State point of observation that the impact on the Premiers present, w'hen this State is re- State's revenue per annum because of un- ceiving the biggest per capita repayment productive loan investments is approaching from uniform tax? Does the Chamber think the total amount received under the uniform that those Premiers will agree to excessive taxation. If wve follow it through we payments to this State from their collections will find that that is a basis for a very close -because that is where they have conic scrutiny, because it is the source of most from, the collections of the other States- of our financial troubles in this State. That without any scrutiny of w-hat we are doing is something which when examined by with our own instrumentalities and servies? members will give them cause for great Of course we could not possibly get away cofl'erji and much consideration. Before I with that. leave this point-which is "The West Aus- tralian" headline "Deterioration in State The Minister for Housing: I think that Finauees"-the Supply Bill, if I interpret uniform gauge is viewved mainly from the it aright, means an anticipation of a budget defence angle. of £C20,000,000, and the Premier will need Hon. F. J. S, WISE: Yes, but I do not perhaps a couple of million pounds for his want any conflict on the discussions in deficit because I cannot see how hie can raise regard to the uniform gauge and the re- much more t-hau he did last year from the generation programme, especially about people of Western Australia. If figures moneys being spent from revenue and the remain as they are-and I am basing them share which we must find for a uniform on this article-the Minister for Lands will gauge, when it comes. That aspect shouldt not get as much from territorial collections be very closely scrutinised and su-h ex- this year as he did last year, last year's penditure, if possible, stopped. colle-tions being £601,000. I would like to ask the Premier-in I think it will be found that because of elaboration of his statement of the 3rd July, the buoyancy-I will not say opulence-of that the whole question of the Common- the farmer's position, a tremendous amount (27 JULY, 1948.] 292 of money was paid in land rents last year, There is a very interesting comparison and that in the Titles Office there is almosc to be found in the public finances section a run on the officers to issue titles for con- of any Commionwealth Year Book, but more ditional purchase areas. This means that particularly the most recent one. The there are certain aspects and certain avenues latest I have been able to obtain is No. 86 of the Treasurer's revenue of last year that of 1944-45. The interesting comparison I will not be available this year, and I wish to make on public finances centres repeat, if I am any judge, he will around the enonnous collections of the have to budget for a very heavy deficit Commonwealth and the sources of those -perhaps £E2,000,000-and he wvill receive collections. Members will find in this £3,807,000 from uniform tax on the present Commonwealth Year Book that of a basis. That is the figure from the ad- total of £388,000,000 per year of taxation justed basis of last year. The sum which collected by the Commonwealth, £215,000,000 was arranged for at the institution of uui- of that was from uniform taxation, The form tax, namely, £C2,546,000-jumped to total amount upon which the States' con- £3,384,000 owing to the special ease that I tributions were based originally was well stated last year. If the Premier gets that under £C40,000,000, the Commonwealth for sum from uniform tax, and £2,000,000 from its purposes retaining all in excess of the the Grants Commission-perhaps--he will amounts recouped to the States. It is very receive from Commonwealth sources next interesting to note that from taxation in year, excluding revenue received by the 1938-39, the financial year at the end of TMinister for Works from the Federal Aid which wvar broke out, the amount that the Road Agreement and petrol tax, about Commnonuealib derived from income tax £ 7,500,000. was £1I1,880,000 but for the year 1944-45 it collected from that source £215,534,000. The 1947-48 figures-and these are actual The 'Minister for Housing-: figures-were £1l,977,000 f rom special And last grants under Section 96 of the Constitution, ycar 9 and £1,000,000 towards the deficit. Meme- Hon. F. J. S. WISE: For the last finami- bers will also find in Table 34 of the Budget cial yeIar the Commonwealth Government statement that he received £473,000 on the collected even more still. 5 per cent, interest and sinking fund basis, The Minister for Housing: Yes, some- and on account of old debts whi-h were thing- like £424,000,000. funded, including deficits of some former Liberal Premiers on which the Common- Ron. F. J1. S. WISE: To one who has a wealth pays half the interest and sinking flair fur studying these matters, I find it fund, £C193,000, and £E3,807,000 from uni- most interesting to notice how little has form taxation, making a total of £7,450,000 been the increase in Customs and Excise from the Commonwealth last year. Members returns over that period. For instance, in might do well to ponder over those figures. 1938-39 the returns from Customs duty I exclude all sums coming to us under amounted to £31,000,000 but in 1944-45 special Acts and for specific purposes such they totalled £28,000,000. Obviously that as moneys received under the Federal Aid was bieause of the decreased volume of Road Agreement, which last year was over imiports. The gradual decrease from any other source other than income £1,000,000, and although the total sum last tax is very noticeable. As a matter of fact, hardly year received from Commonwealth sources anyvincrease is shown in connection with was £8,500,000, the sum paid into State many sources of revenue from taxation, in- revenue was £7,450,000. The total budget cluding estate duty, flour tax and sales tax. of Philip Collier in 1934-35 was under whereas from income tax-one that under £10,000,000, and very tmany things of great the present system is so easy to collect- moment and of great importan-e to this the Commonwealth returns increased in six State were done in those days, so that this years from £11,000,000, which was obtained Treasurer will need to raiste £C10,000,000 for its own purposes only, to £C215,000,000. in Western Australia without ftaxation. Of course the State Treasurer would That is the position we are in. This Premier like to know all of the directions. in which must get £10,000,000 in Western Australia he could make some inroads upon the Coin- quite distinct from his taxing income. monwelth's share of the uniform tax, and bo [ASSEMBLY.] therefore I would like to learn, for the lIron. F. J. S. WISE: That is one of the benefit of the country, what the Premier catches in it, and it is certainly very vital. has in mind with regard to altering the If the Premiers of the States accept Mr. financial relationship between the Common- Hallway's viewv and convince the Federal wealth and the State. I desire to stress Treasurer that their taxing rights should this point-if only for the benefit of the be restored to the States, the position Attorney General-that not only am I op- might well be very difficult for Western posed to the return to the States of their Australia. I cannot understand just where taxing rights under the present set-up, but Mr. Hollway is with regard to the Premier I am opposed whole-heartedly to high taxa- of Western Australia in connection with tion, if such high taxation is unnecessary- the uniform taxation matter. There is I care not what Government may be respon- nothing in common between the ability of siblc for it. I have no place for reckless that glorious little State of Victoria, with tinance, Commonwealth or State. That its concentrated population and industry, position should be made perfectly clear. to find the funds with which to provide for If it is that the Treasurer of this State social services and the ability of a State is at fault at this stage in the handling of like Western Australia which comprises the finances, I for one will hold him eul- one-third of the continent and has one- poble, until ho takes steps to curb the reck- sixteenth of the population of Australia. less, finance and needless drift. The Minister for Housing: I think the The Premier: You will tell me wvhere the Premier has converted Mr. Hallway. reeklc~s finance comes in before you sit Iron. F. S1.S. WISE: I was surprised to down. see how the Premier was in Mr. Hllway 's pocket while he was here. Iron. F. J. S. WISE: I will, brut not be- fore we suspend the sitting for tea. The Premier: Why do you say that? The Premier: From rumours I have Hin. F. f. S. WISE: Everything that heard, I certainly expected members to be Mr. Haollway said or advocated was ap- hiere after the tea suspension. plauded by thme Premnier-so far as we know. The Premier: Abi, as far as you know! Iron. F. J. S. WISE: I am afraid I must Iron. F. J. S. WISE: If there is any tell may story in my own way. other point of view, it would be very re- The Premier: That is quite all right. Do assuring to the public of this State could the Premier tell uts that bie has not touchL Iron. F. J1. S. WISE: I certainly shall in common with Mr. 1li 'avwith regard not apologise, but I cannot finish in a fewv to taxation rights being restored to the minutes. I think it very timely to repeat States. We should feel consiflerably heart- advice in a kindly way to the Premier, to ened to find that he had not been so muelh take tn notic of the views of Mr. Downing- involved in these dismissions with Mr. Play- with regard to this matter. I suggest he ford and Mr. Hlollway and had not involved takes no notice of the Liberal Party. our people in something that would suit the Mr. (h-aham :'The Premier might be led State of Victoria hut not 'is. astray all right. The Premier: You need not worry about Mr. Playford's attitude. Hon. F. J. S. WISE: If Mr. Downing obtains his desire to revert to the pre-war Hon. F. J. S. WISE: I know M.%r.Play- systemt of separate taxation, Western Aus- ford very well, as the Premier is aware. tralia will be in one devil of a mess. The Mr. Playford knows what he wants from the Premier must bear in mind that the To- Commonwealth and he usually knows how to storat ion of taxing rights will not make .set about getting it, but with the Treasurer posqible the requisite collection of taxation of this State, 'Mr. Playford knows that hie desired. He must remember that in this dare not go too far in pressing for taxing- respect the Commonwealth has a pre- rights unless they are restored without any eminent right to enter the field of taxation other consideration being entailed. That is before the States' claims can be considered. the dangerous point. If Mr. Chifley de- The 'Minister for Housing: That is the cided to hand back taxing powers to the catch. States, the Premier's health would suiffer (27 JULY, 1948.] 313 immediately because, without a considera- sented by the Premier received special men- tion of alt the other factors involved, it tion. The Commission stated- could not be done. The people of Western Economists do not today suggest that expen- Australia, in those circumstances, could not diture of loan money should necessarily he pro- finance the budget of the present Treasurer. ductive. Expenditure on public buildings, edu- cationsi and other constructional. work wvhich, I mentioned just now that one of the has no individual economic return but which greatest difficulties associated with the h1as a community value, may be made within thu limits of prudence .. financing of Western Australia's affairs lay It will Also be realised that, where loan in our unproductive loan expenditure. On charges appear in. the budget, they are met, not the 24th November last "The West Aus- 'by the consumer on a scale based on the cost tralian," in a leading article following the of the service, 'but by the taxpayer on a pro- introduction of the Loan Estimates, said- gressive taxation system based on the principle of equality of sacrifice . . . . Where a service Mr. MeLarty gave West Australians some to individuals has a cost which can be calcu- food for thought when he disclosed that the lated, it seemns desirable that the cost shall be charges las year, £4,300,0001 on our £99,000- charged to the consumers And not to the tax- 000 of public debt exceeded 'by 93,500,000 the payers. net earnings from the undlertakings financed from loans. I wonder wbether the Premier disagrees with the point of viewv that, where a ser- In saying that, .1r. MecLarty, as he was re- vice to individuals has a c03t that can be ferred to by the newspaper, did niot dis- calculated, it is desirable that the cost should close anything new. That has been patent be charged to the consumers and not to the year after year as shown in the budget taxp~ayer-s. I should like the Premier to statements and budget returns. "The West think over that point. Australian" article continued- That deficiency exceeded the Amount of our The Minister for Housing: I had a word income tax reimbursement, and calls not only or two to say about that when I sat on the for some introspection on our ownl part, but Bench acrosqs there, but it was always point- for practical attention by the Commonwealth and for assistance directed towards restoring ed out from the Government side that we our solvency. had to look to the development of the State. "Restoring our solvency!1" So the leader Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Yes, but not only writer of "The West Australian" suggested from the point of view of the State's de- that this drift, which was commented -upon velopment. If an increment is enjoyed by as being such a, serious deterioration, was, individuals as a. result of tremendous State in fact, a matter of our heading towards expenditure, those individuals should not be insolvency. The leader writer went on to entitled to retain all the increment or all of say- the colossal earnings from Government ex- Western Anstralia, is slipping further into penditure while the taxpayers generally foot complete dependence on the Commonwealth and the bill. The Grants Commission proceeded s-urrendering more and more of the few remain- to -a3--and this is particularly cogent in ing vestiges of its original sovereignty. illustrat ion of my argument- Those are very pungent words and they are Grants secured merely by political pressure absolutely true. Unless there is some intro- are seldomn sound, and at the present time utilities in Australia have been spection, unless the Premier makes an ninny public made the Avenue of subsidies to special inter- examination of the things he ought to do, ests. we must head, firstly, towards insolvency, and then very rapidly, when the Common- Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. weatth refuses to meet our losses, towards unification. This is a note of warning that Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Before tea, I was I have persistently sounded. If the Premier dealingp with the necessity for a very close wants something to ponder over, be should scrutiny to be made of loan investments rend the Eighth Report (1941) of the Com- in Western Australia and also with the monwealth Grants Commission. This re- necessity for some correctives in our finance port, which I criticised in this Chamber to be applied so far as internal charges some years ago, shows the atititude of that were concerned, charges that affected State lbodly to unproductive loan expenditure. On instrumentalities. I have always held the page 74 of the report, the districts repre- view, Mr. Chairman, as you know, that for :32 32[ASSEMBLY.] very many of the necessary investments to ferred, very many interesting items of develop Western Australia, all Australia partially productive Loan assets, such as should be responsible. I have expressed in the Rural and Industries Bank, the Wlater this Chamber on many ocTasions the view Supply, Sewerage and Drainage Depart- that Australia, as a whole, must adopt the ment, the Abattoirs, the Wyndham Meat attitude that wherever Australian wealth is Works and others, including the West Aus- centred, that wealth should be taxed to de- tralian Meat Export Works, which has velop Australia's resources wherever they been able to earn a sufficient profit to place occur. I hold that view very strongly. I funds in reserve to meet future contingen- believe that in an. examination of the Loan cies, and those profits were earned in my investments in Western Australia, onle of time. the important things for determination in I am therefore not very impressed when any State-Conmionwepith conference on Hl- I hear members of the Government criti- Danes must he the responsibility of Aus- eiSing State undertakings which private en- tralia towards a State such as ours, which terprise should not, and ciould not, invade, must he developed from the wealth of and saying that such things savour of so- Australia. cialisation. 1 would draw the attention of I think, therefore, it is no use. indulging- the members of the Government and the in wishful thinking or loose speaking onl Premier to the necessity for thoroughly in- the subject of having our taxing rights re- vestigating the position of our investments, stored to us, or of entering into a Federal so tlint the deficiency of £3,600,000 May be conference arena with only one objective, lessened. It is all very well to reduce drain- that of having our taxing rights restored. age rates in the "Murray-Wellington district. There is very much more which must be The Premier: Did they do that7C given the closest scrutiny in any such con- Hon. F. J. S. WISE:. They ference if this State is to have the oppor- did. tunity for development which the taxing of The Premier: Are you sure they have not the persons in this State cannot possibly put them upl achieve. I think that in that direction our lion. F. J3. S. WISE: The Premier should financial, as well as our economic, future ask the Minister for Works. ties. With losses on Loan investments and The Minister for Works: No, do not charges on the Budget to, the tune of ask me. 0.,500,000-alImost as much, as I mentioned earlier, as our taxation collections--this is Hon. F. J. S. ISE:-if the Premier does not the time to add to our debt burden, not know it, the Minister for Works has which is the highest in the Commonwealth. made certain concessions in regard to drain- That is something which I submit to the age rates in the Mfurray-Wellington district. Premier for his earnest consideration. This Hon. J. B. Sleeman: That is spoils to is not the time to encourage Government the victors! spending in directions which wvill be not The Minister for Works: And in that one conly an added impost on our annual reve- district alone? flu"s, but which will also be an added per capita burden on the whole community. lion. P. J3. S. VISE: I am talking of that district alone. If members will carefully examine the re- The 'Minister for Works: You are sug- turns which are furnished, and which show gesting by that, that it applies to no other clearly the unproductive and productive Part. Loan assets, they w-ill have ample food for thought. The Government of this State, Hon. F. J. S. WISE: No. wvhieh pretends to he so much against any- The 'Minister for Works: 'Make it plain. thing savouring of socialisation, will get Hon. F. J. S. WISE: Rates in the Mur- but scant comfort from the fact that the ray-Wellington and in other districts have fully reproductive loan assets include the been reduced. State sawmills, the State hotels and the The -Minister for Works: Other districts ? metropolitan markets. These are the only three fully productive Loan investments inr Hon. F. 3. S. WISE:- Yes, including Nar- 'Western Australia. 'Members will also find, rogin, if the Mlinister for Works likes. This on examining the tables to which I have re- reducing of rates will not improve matters [27 Juay, 1948.] 333 any more than the reduction in the freight Rlon. F. J. S. WISE:- Yet, at the very on cattle from Derby will improve the posi- moment when he was waxing enthusiastic tion very much; nor will tinkering with the about State ships, we had another 'Minister charges of the Fremantle Harbour Trust, in the South 'criticising an act he regarded by raising the charges for its services, im- as dreadful socialisation and taking away prove the position very much. from a State i nstru mentality its own H~on. J. B. Sleeman: Did they raise the coalminies, freight on cattle from Derby? The Premier: Hear, hear! Hon, F. J, S. WISE: No. I said the lon. F. J. S. WISE: It does not make freight was reduced. sense. The Premier and those associated li1on. J. B. Sleeman: I thought so, That with him have to be realistic in this matter is better. Of the owning of a State coalmine by a State instrumentality. I1am not going to lion. F. J. S. WISE: But certain discuss that question at the moment, because charges were increased. I am confining myself to financial niters, Mr, Styants: The metropolitan sewerage but I wvill discuss it onl some other occasion, rates, I hop , Here we have the State Electricity lion. F. J, S. WISE: Yes. There has Commission showing- a loss and being a bur- been anl increase in the average water rates den oni the taxpayers, and at the same time of about six per cent. Those things have giving away its greatest asset, thus depriv- been done by the Government in a very ing. itselIf of the opportunity to give to the feeble approach to a very real problem. I community piower at a price commensurate realise that members opposite, particularly with its cost. The Premier cannot say that thle State should relinquish authority over Country Party members, hay0 waxed elo- quent in the past about the Fremantle Har- sach instrumentalities as that, or the Fre- bour Trnst, the Abattoirs and the Salcyards mantle Harbour Trust or the Metropolitan beino. taxing machines; but those mem'bers, Abattoirs. He can no more do that than and especially the members of the Govern- say that he takes no responsibility for the ment, have stern realities to face. I repeat cost of education or health, or of the Police that in their time, the Fremiantle Harbour Departmenlt, or of other services that are Trust charges, as far as labour is concerned, comparatively non-earning. The State has have been increased. Of course, I know, a responsibility in these spheres-a financial too, that the Government could sell the rail- one-just the same as it has in concerns ways, or give them away. whicht no private enterprise shonld be tier- mitted to operate. The Mfinis4ter for Education: That would] be more likely, I think! I come back to the point that the public must receive service from State instrument- Honl. F - . S. WISE: I am interested in alities which private enterprise could not that interjection. The Deputy Premier, as and should not operate. If the State has Leader of his party, might endorse the giv- to be developed from loan moneys expended ing away of the railways. on drainage, irrigation, land clearing and The Minister for Education: Like smoke! other projecki, the taxpayer is entitled to see, particularly if the benefit can he meas- Hon. F. 3. S. WISE:- But that would ured,' that a commensurate return is paid to mean a vast difference to the position of thle Treasury for the services given. I put the farming community who are getting con- this to the Premier: Can he expect other cessioan rates to the extent of 2 d . a ton Stakt2s of Australia to continue to contribute mile 0O] sonic commodities;. and that could to t'e highest per capita repayment fromi not happen uinder private enterprise. When income tax from uniform taxation collec- we regard these things as socialisation, -we tions, unless he does something to prevent have to he a bit realistic. I was very amused thle deterioration in State finance of which to hear the Premier wax almost enthusias- I have spoken so much this evening? In hit tic in the North about State ships. If he Treatsury Department the Premier has men had his way, he would have the rivers who are acclaimed as experts and are ac- swimming with them. knowledged to be authorities in public fi- The Premier: Now, now! ince in all Australia. I.suggest to him that 34 34[ASSEMBLY.) he w ill be very unwise unless he takes notice The Commonwealth may make agreements of them. I have expounded sufficiently this w'ith the States with respect to the -public debts of the States, inl~ding- evening- in connection with the railways (a) the taking over of ntich debts by the position, and one thing is clear: That unless Commonwealth; control is exerted-for which I am certain (b) the management of such debts; this Chamber would give him authority, as (c) the paymient of interest and the pro- we on this side endeavoured to obtain it- vision and management of sinking funds in re- unless lie exerts sufficient strength to pre- spect of such debts; vent what is happening in that one depart- (di) the consolidation, renewal, conversion maent, we will drift along into chaos that and redemption of such debts; can have only one ending. (e) the indemnification of the Common- wealth by the State in respect of debts taken In the past I have traversed very closely over by the Commonwealth; and the financial relationships between the Corn- (f) the borrowing of money by the Mrtates, or by the Commonwealth, or by the Commnon. mnonwcalth and the States. Under the Con- wealth for the States. stitution as framed on Federation, the Corn- monweaith was given power to legislate on In that section is our opportunity at a certain specific matters. All the remaining Federal conference to show not merely powers of government were left with the State desires but the valid needs of a States. Tha Commonwealth bad exclusive State such as ours in regard to an appre- power to impose Customs tax and excise ciation of its internal debt which has been duty and concurrent powers with the States incurred with the knowledge of the Coin- in other fields of taxation. The Common- monwealth after our returns from Customs wealth could not discriminatp between the and Excise ceased, the States then having States in the exercise of its taxation laws. the responsibility for payment for all public If members will look at Section 87 of the works developmets-the States had to bear Commonwealth Constitution, they will find that burden-and the responsibility for all therein a consideration in regard to Customs thie costs of water supplies and harbours. which operated until 1010; and, when the We have our opportunity in that section provisions of that section finished, members of the Constitution and others far too know that the States, by the methods adopted numerous to mention, suph as Section 90, by the Commonwealth, had no opportunity Section 92-which is famous-Section 99 to get anything from that source; nor, in- and Section 109. deed, had they later any opportunity to All those sections are of special interest enjoy surplus revenue from the Common- in regard to the financial relationships be- -wealth. There were no powers under Sec- tween the Commonwealth and States. The tion 87 of the Constitution after 1910. States, having accepted the responsibility If me-mbers will look at the many financial for the creation of public works and de- clauses, in the Constitution-and not only velopmental works and developmental rail- Section 96, which is a very yital one today ways since the 1914-18 war, none of these becaume, without it, Wesgtern Australia could things can be ignored if Commonwealth- not exit-if they will look, fur instance, at State flinancial relationships are to be Section 105A, they will perhaps agree with thoroughly investigated. my view that that is the most important ever They cannot be ignored in the case of a written into the Constitution, recent though State like Western Australia with the it is. in that section, this State has the responsibility of maintaining services such greatest opportunity to exert its rights in as education in spots 2,000 mile., apart and any Commonwealth conference. May 1, yet within the State. Such a State as this with your indulgence, M1r. Chairman, just cannot be expected to have its claims lightly quote whvat Section l105A of the Constitation brushed aside if the very fundamentals of gives to the States, although the Common- Comnmo nwealth- State financial relationships wealth dominated the financial field, as are to be examined and improved upon. So alternatives in regard to financial assistance? I suggest that since the burden of servicing The section was inserted under Section 2 of debts in regard to the development of this the Constitution Alteration (State Debts) State came as a State responsibility, all Act of 1028, and it gave to the Common- Australia-not only the Commonwealth wealth this right- Government but maybe through it, under [27 Jr, 1948.-3 35 the present taxation laws, all Australia- not get, even if they asked for £30,000,000 has a responsibility to the people of to provide their people with food and work, Western Australia in regard to the costs of more than £15,000,000 in all Australia. The this development. State Premiers haggled and bargained for days wo get their fair share of what the Going on a bit further from those days banks said the Commonwealth Government when certain per capita arrangements were could borrow. made, to the time of the Financial Agree- ment of 1927, I point out that the States These are facts that cannot be denied. had a colossal task to weather the storm Therefore I say that with the trend of to- and the difficulties of the depression. Mem- day-the development from the depression bers will know that I have never unfairly years with the Loan Council still operating criticised the serious burdens of govern- and the Commonwealth Government domin- ment during the depression years, irrespec- ating the finances of Australia-we have tive of which Government was in office. got to be very careful that by extravagance, Theirs was a colossal task wherever they and by dilatoriness, so far as our own served. With the charges which the depres- expenditures are concerned, we do n ot very sion brought to this community there was shortly reach the position of the Common- agaiii an increase in the burden which this wealth having no more to do with the State's citizens had to bear; end until 1930, financing of deficits or the giving of grants. when the activities of the Loan Council I would like to refer to something \vhich, became apparent, the States were almost to my mind, was a very important happen- floundering in their attempts to finance ing in the days of the first Collier Govern- their original expenditures. ment. To me it was one of the most important events in the review of State and Common- In December, 1930, a very interesting wealth finances. I refer to the appoint- event occurred, especially interesting to nment by the Collier Govenrment of the people concerned in the nationalisation of Advisory Committee to prepare the ease for banking. The Loan Council was informed Western Australia on the finnces of West- that financial accommodation would not be era Australia as affected by Federation. available from the banks unless all govern- Mr. Collier appointed the honourable, now mental borrowing, including borrowing for Sir, Norbert Keenan, as Chairman of a temporary purposes, was dealt with by the committee to make those investigations. To Loan Council to which body the banks all members of this Chamber younger in would look for the discharge of the obliga- years and experience than I am, who have tions created by the issue of Treasury bills. not given much attention to this important Subsequently the Loan Council was in- problem, I would recommend a perusal of formed that the provision of further finan- the case prepared by Sir Norbert Keenan, cial accommodation by the banks would be because I think it is the most important contingent on the Governments taking steps review ever made of this State's financial to achieve closer balance between their relationships with the Commonwealth. revenues and expenditures. I quote that Members will find it recorded in the docu- authoritative statement because it has a ments of this House, and the report of the very close relationship with the trend of Royal Commission of 1925 on the finances finances today. of Westoern Australia is also in this House. The work of Sir Norbert Keenan was, in Unless there is a closer relationship be- my view, one of the greatest contributions tween revenues and expenditure insisted ever prepared in the scrutiny of this State's upon on this occasion, the private banks finances. will be saying to the Commonwealth Oovernment through the directors of the Hon. J. B. Sleeman: And he did not get Commonwealth Bank, as they did in those a place in the Government! days, that it will not be able to go on the Hon. F. J_ S. WISE: I will admit that loan market for more than this or that that, case -was the basis of the case for sum. The membfer for Boulder has a very secession, but that is quite by the way. He clear recollection of the unfair bargaining provided, in those records, very cogent rea- that look place around the Loan Council sons why the Commonwealth should take table because the Commonwealth Bank notice of this State's position and make directors told the Premiers that they could spe-ial grants annually. I would like to [ASSEMBLY.] read one or two brief extracts from Sir per year, but because of a minority report Norbert Keenan's report. In one para- put in by a member of that Comission, graph he says-- recommending otherwisec, the real recomn- Whiat the State Government wishes br the mendations of the Commission, which would present opportunity to make clear is that its have meant much to restoring this State to ?esouree4 are overtaxed andi it is uiabile to hear its proper financial position, have always the biurden of carrying out the policy which i4 acceptable to the partners in the Australian beens avoided. I will not weary the Comn- nation as a whole with her handicapped re- mittee by traversing the changes that have Isources and riepleted purse. taken place in the financial responsibilities of the Commonwealth and the States. Ile went on to say- Earlier in the evening a member said, by At the beginning of these observations I ven- way of interjection, that the framers of the tured to say that Western Australia rushed into Constitution dlid not anticipate the situation Federation for patriotic motives1 without any propecr vision of thle business aspects of such that exists today. Neither did they antici- action. The inevitable has happened. The po'- pate two wars, one of which is costing the iey uhirh suits thle dominant partners is the Conmmonwealth Government £C48,006,000 per only polity considered and adopted. This policy aI have said, may ho taken for granted to year at present. h'e advantageous to those partners. But it is ruinous to Western Australia. What then is to Of course, the whole financial structure of lie done? We do not ask these powerful and the Commonwealth has altered soustan- populous States whom we have joined in part- tially, and members will find, in Bird's nership to accept our dictatorship of the policy mionthly review of Australian finance, all the partnership is to follow. We recognise that this polivy must he approved by the majority of the tables and figures for every particular the vitizens of Australia, and we admit that itemn of wvar expenditure and subsequent this; means that whant these populous States expenditure. I refer members to the memi- approve must be accepted by us. orandumi on Australian finance for 1947, If memiber5 will take the trouble to Study put up by Bird and Company of Bridge- that report, with which I do not wish to street, Sydney. It gives completely-even weary the Committee on this occasion, they where they are not disclosed as such by the -will find in it mnuch food for thought. Also, Commonmweal th Treasurer-the amounts ex- in the report of the Noysi1 Commission they pended under aill the main headings of war will find manyI reasons why all citizens must expenditure. it is interesting to note that pause to consider the trend in State finances during the eight years from 1030 to 1947 and their deterioration as is evident at pre- war expenditure was £E2,722,000,000, which sent. It is, interesting to note that, based bad to be found by the people of the Comi- on the report of that committee, the Coin- monwealth of Australia. mnission recommevnded that the State of West- In the elaboration of those figures, in ainy ern Australia, during a period of 25 years consideration of requests or demands fromn and thereafter until Parliament otherwise State to Commonwealth or between State provided-thisA was in the year 1925-- and State, there must be recognition of the s-hould have the absolute right to impose its" obligations that the Commonwealth accept- own custonms tariff as in prc-Federation ed in thle interests of the nation during war- (Is y s, provided it did not impose higher time. There is no reason why an examin- dlutics. than the other States, and also that atie]] of the financial relationships and the amount to be contributed byVthe State varying responsibilities should not result in of Western Australia to the Commonwealth a plan being formed that would avoid all Government should hie determnined by neg-o- of the present un plea santness that exist,; between the Commonwealth Govern- tiation when State Treasurers think they cannot ment and the Government of Western Ania- et along on their internal income, and tIme tralia, or, inl disagreement, by an arbitrator. Commonwealth Treasurer thinks he must M.%embers will see that authorities, ap- expand social services and the like. The, pointed by the Commonwealth in 1925, whole matter could and should have a coml- 'recommir uded to the Commonwealth that we mon beginning on the basis of the just Fhoimld have our enstdnms and excise returned needs and requirements of immnediate. i'- to us and, further, that this Stnte should ance, amid the internal obligations that the have returned to it the sm of £00,1000 states must accep~t if they are to develop [27 JULY, 1048.])3 37 their heritage as we would wish it to be The Premier: You under-estimated your developed. deficit by £800,000. Members are aware of the collections, Hon. F. J. S. WISE: The Premier is not State by State, enjoyed under uniform doing anything about it, but if he is at all taxation. Out of a total of £40,000,000 this sensitive to the interests of the people of State is now getting £3,807,000. I suggest this State his deficit will shortly keep him it is not quite reasonable, in spite of the awake at nights. I am prepared to let the formula that has been designed, to expect Premier know, privately, what I would do it to keep pace with State needs, New in similar circumstances. I think it is lime South Wales has gone up, in its return he took stock of the situation. from uniform taxation, from £15,000,000 to The Premier: I wish you had taken stock £17,500,000, but we know full well that no of the situation of the railways. Treasurer of New South Wales would agree that that State is yet fully developed. We Hcn. F. J.5S. WISE: We did. know that the taxation resources left to him The Premier: And some of your prede- do not give him the elasticity of finance cessors also. Then we would not have been previously enjoyed. There is no reason on in the mess in which we find ourselves earth why the demands and requirements today. of the Commonwealth and States should be Hon. F. J. S. WISE: The inheritance opposed, and no reason why any differences left by the Liberal Government to the should not he reconciled. Labour Government in 1933-I have never I think it fair to acknowledge to our been unfair about it- Treasurer-who, as I said earlier, is caus- The Premier: You were only a boy then, ing a serious deterioration in our State fi- and you have done nothing about it since. minces-that he will need more finance than The CHAIRMAN: Order! was formerly enjoyed, but that imposes upon him an obligation to see that he is lion. F. J. S. WVISE: As aeknowledged not, by wastefulness and excessive expen- by the Royal Commission, we rejuvenated diture, prejudicing his own ease and the the M1idland Junction Workshops under future of this State. extreme difficulties. We reconditioned £1,000,000 worth of rollingstock that The Premier: I wish you would clarify was; left lying idle at the end of the pre- for me your remark about unnecessary ex- vious Government's term, and as soon penditure. as possible after the war new en- Hon. F. J. S. WISE: If the Premier gines were obtained from England. wishes me to tell him, either privately or Buoyant times and times of prosperity, as Publicly- far as the community is concerned, are not favourable timies for Government spending The Premier: Publicly. to increase and increase. The time to stimu- Hon. F J. S. WISE: -how he should late Government spending is when public manage the affairs of this State, I say he finance is at a lowv ebb and when private should not be where he is. Any Premier finance cannot do the work it should. The who does not attempt to justify an increase alternatives have to a degree been examined, in expenditure to the record figure of if not by the Treasurer, then by the Trea- £1I8,000,000, but u-ho just says, "It does not sury officers, and that is very iniportant. matter. There it is. I have not done and Just. as collaboration is necessary in time of cannot do anything about it."- war So it is very necessary between National The Premici: Your Government's expen- and State governments in time of peace. diture increased greatly. What extra The Premier: There is a greater demand charges did you make or what extra revenue on the Government today to spend than ever did you get? previously. lion. F. J. S. WISE: I did not incur a fHon. F. J. S. WISE: Yes, and if Govern- detficit that would jeopardise the future of ments. are willing to be led along that lane this Slate and I did not ignore the signs, they will be spending all the time, but if we obvious to a blind person,-that the trend is wish to have a condition of healthy finance dangerous- and happy relationships, then we should 38 [ASSEMBLY.] attempt to curb any 'wilful extravagance rights restored. He seemed to indicate to- which can be avoided. I hope that this night that he has changed his mind ahout State's Treasurer will show by his own ex- that, but we can find amnple proof in the ample and his own endeavours that he is not newspapers that he has been making these going to be led into a financial morass which statements for months. would-as "The West Australian" points out The Minister for Housing: I do not think -head us towards insolvency. I also hope SO, that by much care and imagination he wvill be able to adjust his finances to such a state as The Premier: No. I will tell you about will warrant the confidence of even those who it. You carry on. are opposed to him in many other respects. It Hon. J. T, TONIQN: I am asking the i., onl' in this way that we can expect to Premier what rate of taxation he would keel) our State intact aind prosperous. We have to impose in Western Australia if the on this side of the House do not wish to in- taxinlg rights were restored. That would dulge in petty criticisms but only soundly to not occasion very much work in his office, examine the position and express our views because I feel certain that he must have so that the jpeople can decide for themselves had the figures taken out before he made just how dangerous is this trend. the statement that he -wanted the State's taxing rights restored. I "cannot imagine EON. J, T. TONKIN (North-East Fre- that any Premier would advocate the res- mantle) [8.12] : It has long been recognised toration of his own taxing rights before thait the occasion for the granting of Supply having calculated what rate of tax he to lhs 'Majesty is one affording an oppor- would have to impose in order to obtain tunity for the airing of various grievances the niecessarv revenue to carry on the func- before such supply is granted. I think tions of the State. I hope the Premier will that is a custom which has been completely let the Chamber have the figures so that juistifled. There are certain matters to the people of Western Australia will know which attention has to be drawn very early, what tax would be imposed if the State lest the drift continue until we reach a had its taxing rights returned. sta-c where it is impossible to provide a lHon. .1. RI. Steemnan: le does. not wvant silbient corrective. I am taking advan- the rights back. tuge of this opportunity to tell the Pre- inier and the (lovernuxent of a few of the Mr, Styants: He would not he game to grievances which exist. The Premier impose a rate to cover the revenue if he mentioned that he was seeking a larger had the power. amount this time than formerly because of Hon. X. T. TtONIN: The Premier has increased costs. I thought prices only rose recently been touring the North in an en- with Wise. That is what -we were told at denvour to show the people that there is the last election. in power a Governmnent which is very con- The Premier: Do you realise that wre crned about the condition of the people have got such increased costs as a 40-hour in those areas and anxious to go to the week, -which probably means an extra limit to help them. One gesture which has C500,O00!? Do you blame the Treasurer for been inade to the North, and which the that! Government bas attempted to eapitalise to the fLullest extent, is the granting of one lion. J. T. TONKIN: But the Premier free return pass for children in the North did not realise that before the election. who come to the metropolitan area for The Premier: There was no 40-hour week schooling. People generally believe that the before the election. Government is paying for it and that the lon. J. T. Tl7ONKINX: I realise, that. Of Government has generously made available course, prices only rose with Wise, we were to these children this free pass. The true told, but prices also rise with 'MeLarty. position is that the various local authorities throughout the State are making these free Mr. Marshall: They rise sky-high. passes available because the money neces- lon. J. T. TONKIN: The Premier has sary to pay for the f ares is being taken for some considerable time been stating from the Transport Co-ordination Fund. publicly that he wants the State's taxing The residue of this fund is, by Act of Par- [27 JrLr, 1946.] 339 liament, distributed amongst the local autho- penditure-to return to their homes once rities in order that they shall be able to each year without east. It is an action to maintain certain roads over which omni- enable those persons to get some financial lbuses and commercial goods vehicles travel. benefit. By no stretch of imagination is The Act reads- it in the interests of public transport. That At the end of the financial year any balance money is being taken from the Transport remaining in the Fund shall be divided into Co-ordination Fund with the result that the three portions in the same proportion as the license fees derived respectively from licenses amount left to be divided amongst the local issued for omnnibuses, commercial goods ye- authorities is so much reduced. So it is hicles, and aircraft bear to the total of all such not the Government that has made these license fees, and such portions shall be applied free passes available to the children of the as follows:- North; it is the local authorities throughout (a) The portion which is 'lerivedi from the the State. fees for the issue of ominibus licenses shall be applied towards the maintenance and im- The Premier: You also may object to the provement of the roads (including the erec- subsidy on perishables. tion of shelter sheds or other amenities along such route) on which the omnibuses operate, Hon. J, T. TONKIN: I will deal with and shell be divided equitably amongst the various statutory authorities concerned in. the that now. The Act was amended in 1.946 to maintenance and improvement of those roads. enable the people of the North to get freight concessions on perishable goods because it D~espite the fact that the obligations of was recognised that during the summer Jocal authorities have substantially in- months it was not possible for them to grow creased in this regard in recent years, the their own. The idea is that in all parts of amiount of money now being distributed to the State where conditions permit, people theta is getting less and less until last year should not only be encouraged but should it reached an all-time low, being only 52 be expected to provide for their wants per cent, of the amount actually collected. where they are. It is uneconomic, if you That is all that was distributed because this can provide for your awn wants, to bring Government has embarked upon a policy the goods some thousands of miles, but it is which results in this money being used for well recognised that in the summertime it is other purposes, purposes for which, I sub-, not possible to grow vegetables in the North- mit, it wvas never intended. Section S of West, and thus the Act was; amended to the State Transport Ca-ordination Act permit of a subsidy for the carriage of Amendment Act of 1946 says-- perishables during the period it was not (2) Out of the said funds there shall he possible for the people to grow them. The paid- Government has exploited this to the limit. (a) The cost of administration of tbis Act; I noticed recently where it agreed to extend (b) Contributions to the Superannuation the period for a further two months, nnd Fund payable by the Board under any agree- that is, I believe, being paid for out of Con- meat madle between the Board and the Treas- solidated lRevenue. The idea -was solely to urer tinder the provisions of section 6 of the ma'ke itself popular with the people in the Supcrannuation and Family Benefits Act, 19:18-1945; and North. (e) Such sums as in the opinion, of the The Premier: You go up there as I did Board arc necessary or expedient in the in- and have a look; go up there!I terests of public transport to be granted in aid of any transport carried on by the bolder lion. J. T. TONKIN: If the Premier felt of a license for any public vehicle. so strongly about this, he should not have Will the Premier tell this Committee that had any hesitation in taking the money the granting of one free pass a year to £ rown Consolidated Revenue. school children is in accordance with that The Premier: I thought yon said some- provision-"Psuch sums as in the opinion thing about a large defieit just now. of the Board are necessary or expedient in the interests of public transport."? It is an 11on. J. T. TQNKIN: Oh yes, but by educational grant, a grant to enable certain spending the money the Government is children in the North-West -who are obliged making a gesture to the people in the North, to come to the metropolitan area-and with the local authorities' money. whose parents thus incur greater ex- The Premier: It is all taxpayers,' money. 40 40[ASSEMBLY.]

lon. J. T. TO.NKIN: Oh no! It is not turned to local authorities £23,734 or 67 tlie taxpayers' money. The money in the per cent. Now we come to the year with Transport C'o-ordination Fund was in- which this Government is concerned and in tended by Parliament to go towards the which this Government's policy is in opera- local authorities to enable them, to maintain tion, and what do we find? The largest col- the routes over which omnibuses run. leation on record; that is, an amount of £939,189 collected and the amount distri- ,%r. Styants: That is robbery. buted smaller than the amount distributed Hion. J. T. TONKIN: If the Premier in 1944, which amnount is only £20,292 or carries on this policy he will have no money 52 per cent., showing very plainly what left in the Transport Co-ordination Fundl substantial inroads have been Made into to go to the local authorities. T will show this fund in order that the Government the trend. The first year for which we have, can ]uake a good fellow of itself with the complete figures shows that a total of local authorities' mioney. It is time this £14,478 was obtained from omnibus liceiise policy was very drastically reviewed and if the Government wants to l)ay the sub- fees, which went into the Transport Co- sidies it should ordination Fund. The costs of administra- do so with its own muncy, not at the expense of the local authorities. tion were met, the necessary subsidies were I believe that the people of the North are paid but there was a residue of £8,271 or entitled to subsidies so that they can ob- 57 per cent of the total amount collected, tain perishable goods at a cheap rate, but and that 57 per cent. was returned to the I consider these should be provided in ac- local authorities iii the proper proportion cordance with the Act which was passed for aind in accordance with the intention of Par- the purpose and should not be extended liament, indefinitely in order to curry favour. In 1936 the amount collected was £C16,049 The one free pass a year for school of which £12,900 was returned to the local children is definitely an educational grant authorities, or 80 per cent. In 1937 the in the same way as we grant concession amount collected was £E16,338 and the fares on railways or buses, or put on Gov- amount returned to local authorities erment. buses to transport children to £!12,563 or 56 per cent. In 1028 the amount school. There is as much justiication for collected was £18,588 and the amount re- taking out of the Transport Co-ordination turned to local authorities £13,92 or 75 Fund the living-away-from-home allowance per cent. In 19:39 the amount collected was paid to children as there is for calling upon C18.322 and the amount returned to local this fund to carry the expenditure I have authorities £12,413 or 67 per cent. In 1940 mentioned because, by doing so, we are the amount collected was £18,981 and the making the local authorities pay. One of amount returned to local authorities £11,364 my local authorities complained that it was or 59) per cent. In 1941 the amount col- getting less mioney noxv for the maintenance lected was £21,742 and the amount returned of the roads over which omnibuses travel to local authorities £14,709 or 67 per cent. than it was receiving 10 years ago, and this In 1042 the amount collected was £26,426 is the reason. and the amount returned to local authori- Mr..-Marshall: And the traffi has in- ties £1.7,359 or 6.5 per cent. In 1943 the creased. amount collected was £30,287 and the umount returned to local authorities Hon. J. T. TONKI: I am pleased that £21,487 or 70 per cent. In 1044 the amount the Deputy Premier has returned to the collected was £31,137 and the amount re- Chamber because I propose to deal with a tnrned to local authorities £20,858 or 67 matter in which he is concerned. per cent. Mr. Marshall; As Minister for Education, he In 1945 the amount collected was is concerned in the other matter. £32,695 and the amount returned to local Hon. J,. T. TONKIN: The Mft. Barker authorities -was £23,284 or 71 per cent. In east-west service receives a substantial 1946 the amount collected was £:34,279 and subsidy from the Transport Board, and it the amount returned to local authorities seems as if the subsidy should have been £C25,319 or 7.3 per cent. Tn 1947 the amount discontinued some time ago. I propose to collected was £35,201 and the amount re- quote from the Transport Board's 14th an- t27 JULY, 1848.1 441 nual report issued in 1947, which refers to and de,,ply interested in its continuance. The this service- board is appreciative of his efforts in obtaining tile services of another operator with an organui- Mt. Barker East-West Service: .This service sation and equipment commensurate with the has been in existence for over nine years; to work off ering, and gladly availed itself of the the West of Mt. Barker it takes the place of a opportunity of securing his services and has proposed railway and in all it traverses a highly agreed to continue its present subsidy for a productive area. Under such conditions it imight further twelve months. La the meantime the well be reasoned that the success of road trans- position will be closely watched with a view to port service would be assured and that, even ariigat an ultimiate satisfactory solution of if subsidy were necessary in the early stages, the problem. A material contribution to that the natural progress of events should be will he the continued support of the producers towards a self-contained and adequate service. WI-tiLn tile ambit of the service. Such has not been the ease, and towards the end of 1946, the service began to give the I should think so. One of the necessary re- board considerable concern when thne operator quiremlents for the continuance of this ser- of the service gave indications of an inteutio4 vice should be the support of the pit ducers to retire from it owing to the lack of support whom the service was established. Bat by producers on the route. for they will not supp)ort it. I have no doubt I wish members to note that. Here is a that it was owing to strong representations subsidised service and, despite the subsidy, by the member for the district, the Deputy it was threatened with diseontinunee be- Premier, that the service is being con tinued cause the producers on the route would not when it is uneconomic, and thus people in patronise it sufficiently. The report con- other parts of the State are being called t inues- upon to subsidise a service that ought to An analysis of the position of tile Mt. Barker pay but will not pay because the people it East and West service was made and the posi- was intended to serve will not use it. They tion that had arisen could be attributed to prepared to use it only for the carriage several factors, the more important of which are were firstly a post-war influx of private car- of unprofitable lines, such as superphos- riers into the district able to operate withia the phate. How long is this to continue-, I exemptions of tile State Transport Co- sup~pcse so long as the local authorities wilt ordination Act and, by concentration on profit- stand it 1 Let me tell the Govertnent that able loading only, to undercut thle rates of the suhsidised carrier; secondly, wvith tine greater the local authorities are getting somewhat availability of vehicles following the eud of restless about it. They are inquiring how the war a tendency onl the part of producers to it is that the money in thie Transport Co- handle on their own account the better class of ordination Fund gets less and less and, their loading; and thirdly, the use by the oper- although they have substantially increased ator of transport units more in accord with. the possibilities of the route than thle actual load- obligations for the maintenance of roads, iug offering. they arc receiving less money for the In November, 1946, the 'board convened a purpose. meeting at Mt. Barker Of all parties interested be iii the service; a full exchange of views took Later in the session I hope we shall place; the general consensus of Opinion was given more inforinati~n and 1 shall be very that the solution of thne problem lay in further interested to learn what is happening- to subsidy and reduction of rates. At the Same that service. I have no doubt that other time it was recognised that the full support of influential members of the Cabinet will thne producers was essential ; this was promised. Following upon the meeting, the board Sinereas- make representations along the same lines. e'l the -subsidly and investigated the question of I say that this is unfair to, the local authori- rates. Progress, however, was retarded by an ties generally who have a perfect right to intimation in May of this year from the oper- look to the Transport Co-ordination Fund ator that producers were not according tine of the finance with which to do promised -support and that, despite the in- for some creased snbsidy, he-could no longer carry onl. the work required of them. The board was faced with thle position that The Premier, when speaking on this Bill, -producers were in fact using the service only as said that the railways accounted for the a meains of tran)sporting tlneir superphosphate and that it might be more in accord with Bound deficit. True, but Government policy has economy to make seasonable arrangements for been responsible for some of the railway that transport and abandon the service. deficit. I do not think there was any rea- It was felt that the abandonment of the son whatever for continuing the road trans- service in a period of expanding economic ac- port of superphosphate so loug as the tivity, should not be undertaken lightly. The Government did. Deputy Premier, the Hon. A. IF. Watts, M.L.A., hus always been a keen champion of the service The Premier: Do you know the facts? 42 42[ASSEMBLY.]

Hon, J. T. TONKIN: I think I do. ter been Looting the bill himself, I should The Premier: So does the Government. hope he would have taken a different view Hon. J. T. TONKIN: I hope the Govern- from what he did. ment will state the facts because this is a Mr. Yates: It is nonsense to have four very vulnerable spot. Will the Premier say cargoes of wheat if the railways go on that no representations were made by the strike. Railway Department for this transport to cease months before it did? Hon. 5. T2. TONKIN: Was the hon. mem- ber anticipating a strike? The Premnier: We knew perfectly wvell that the railways could not get the superphos- The Premier; He should have said, "Had phate out to the country. We have heard the railways broken down.' He should not that story before. have said a "rstrike." Hon. J. T2. TONKIN: Then the Railway The CHAIRMAN: Order 1 Department did make such representations. Hon. J. T. TONKIN: The Premier com- Is that so?' plains that costs have risen, but I do not The Premier: The department said it could think he has made munch of an attempt to get the super. out. We knew that it could keep them down. not be done, and proved that it could not he The Premier: Can you toll me how I dlone. We were more interested in getting the super. to the farmers. could do it-? The CHAiR'MAN: Order! Hon. J. T. TONKIN: On sup erphosphate. The Premier: That is one point we have lion. J. T. TONKIN: I think the facts answered. Ure against the.Premier. The Premier: They are not. Hon. J. T. TONKIN: That is the way the lion. J. T2. TONKIN: I think be carried Premier is going to answer all these points it on for a considerable time longer than -ust wave them aside, but he will find that was necessary. that will not suffice. He will be obliged to provide the' answers to these statements, The Premier: Not a day. although not necessarily now. It is all very H1on. J. T, TONKIN: At a later stage we well for him to say that costs have inicreased might prove this. owing to the introduction of the 40-hour The Minister for Railways: You will have week, and put it all down to that. a *Job. The Premier: Not all. I wflt give you loz. J. T2. TONKIN: Not su -h a big job another list. a,, the Minister for Railways thinks. With Hon. J. T2. TONKIN: We heard a lot on regard to the transport of wheat,.the same the hustings about the Government's inten- criticismi might be advanced, but the result tion to provide homes for two and three-unit is different, inasmuch as the Government did families. The Government was goingT to do not have to pay. Somebody else was pay- a marvellous job. ing, but we know that wheat was still being hrouht down by road while there was suffi- The Premier: And it is on the way. cient wheat at Fremantle for four cargoes. Ron. J. T. TONKIN: It is on the way all The Minister for Railways: What does right! A couple of months ago I wrote to that prove? the Housing Commission with regard to Hon. J. T. TONKIN: That there was no several cases of two and three-unit families, necessity to continue bringing wheat b3y road. and quoted- the statements made by the Premier and the Deputy Premier in their The Minister for Railways: That is non- Policy speeches. The replies which I re- sense. ceived in writing were that because thesge Honn. J. T. TONKNX: That is what it were two and three-unit families-for that proves. reason and no other-the application.; could The 'Minister for Railways:- Where would not be granted-and the Government has we be if we put the wheat off?7 been miore than 12 months in office! Hon. J. T. TONKIN: There was an accu- The 'Minister for Housing: Those families mulation of four cargoes. Had the Mfinis- are getting seven times their previous quota. [27 JULY, 1948.] 443

Hon. J. T. TONKIN: Are they? Hlon. J. T. TONKIN: What nonsense! persons The Minister for Housing: Yes. Every member knows hundreds of who come to him from time to time saying Hon. J1. T. TONKIN: Seven times their that they have lodged their applications, previous quota? which have been turned down because they The Minister for Housing: The previous have been. for two and three-unit families. quota was 5 per cent. The Minister for Housing: Not now. Hon. J. T. TONKIN: Then there is this Hon. J. T. TONKIN: Yes, every day. I great idea of expansible houses. I have have a dozen constituents whose names I heardI them called collapsible houses by some can give the Minister for Housing tomorrow people; I hope that is not prophetic. How morning. many of these are to be provided? One of The Minister for Housing: Bring them in my constituents made an application last to me. week and was told there would be no more Hon. J. T. TONKIN: Would the Minister of such houses until after Clhslstmas. I get these applications granted right away? have not seen any yet. This plan, which was launched with a great flourish, seems to The Minister for Housing: You cannot have been killed at birth. get them right a-way. The Minister for Housing: 'No. It is go- Hon. J. T?. TONKIN: We can get one now and one next Christmas. That is ing strong. about the rate. It has been long recognised Hon. J. T. TONIN: No houses tilt after that the time to air grievances is on the Christmas? question of supply beinig granted to His The Premier: Never was there such build- Majesty. ing activity in the history of the State. Mr. Marshall: His Majesty is not per- Hon. F. 3. S. Wise: I will tell you all forming very well. about that later. Hon. J. T. TONKIN: It is well that the people should know what difference thetre is Hon. J. T. TONKIN: How many expan- sible houses have already been allocated.9 between the Government's promises and its perfcrinances. In this respect, and it is The Minister for Housing: Covtracts have one (If the cruellest of the lot, the Govern- now been invited for the first 90. ment has fallen down badly, for the reason Hon. J. T. TONKIN: Is it true that there that the people who aire deffinitely up ii~ll be none -until after Christmas? agaist, it are the two and three-unit families. Admittedly, we told them that the The Minister for Housing: We are build- largc families had the greater cull upon the ing them as fast as we can. resources of the Government. We made no Ron. J. T. TO NKIN: That means no more secret, of that as a matter of policy. But until after Christmas. the Government said that that was wrong; The Mfinister for Housing: I hope to have it said it slhould not he done. 180, or twice that figure. Hon. F. J1. S. Wise: The Premier said Hon. F. 3. S. Wise: The effective building that it was quite idle to say there had been rate is lower than it wvas last year. a war and a depression. The Minister for Housing: But we have Hon. J. T. TONKIN: Houses should be the 40-hour week. made available for two and three-unit Several members i nterjected. families. The Minister for Housing: They should AN: Order! The CH1AIRM get az fair proportion. Hon. J. T. TONKIN: The people were Hon. J. T. TONKIN: But the applica- led to believe by the Premier and the tions of the two and three-unit families were Deputy Premier that houses would be pro- turned, down on the very ground that the vided for two and three-unit families. They applicants were members of two and three- believed that statement. unit families. It is ivell that the people The Minister for Housing: And they are should know exactly what the position is. being built. It is not only these people who have a IN 44 44(ASSEMBLY.] grievance; every member of Parliament has is rapidly drifting. We know definitely had representations made to him by per- that never before in the history of the State sons so circumstanced. has there been such a shortage of fruit Mr. Yates: Have any two-unit family cases. The Minister supplied the House homes been built in your electorate in the with certain information this afternoon in last few months? that regrard and unfortunately he appre- ciates that that is the position. It is my Hon. J. T. TONKIN: No. The people intention to submit what I hope will be some get permits to build. cannot constructive criticism, similar to the atti- Mr. Yates: I will name one for you after- tiude adopted by previous speakers. wards. During the war a system of fruit control Hen. J. T. TONKIN: I am living in was introduced under the aegis of the hope as a result of what the Minister for National Security Regulations, and that pro- Housing has said. cedure was continued until December, 1945. The Attorney General; You should have At that stage the Forests Department took made more inquiries. over in a spirit of goodwill but with no Mr. Marshall: Are there any vacancies in definite authority or understanding betwreen the Weld Club that you know of I the millers and the case distributors. 'With The Minister for Housing: I think you the rcsumption of the apple export trade, would make a very popular member. the ease position has become alarmingly desperate. In 1947-48 our ease require- Hion, A. H. Panton: Provided he could become a member. ments were- Apples--1'/ million dumps. Hon, J. T. TONKIN: It looks as though Dried vine fruits-15O,000 2D.P. type. we hare got some results straightaway. It Tointoes-270,000 *34 flat, and 180,000% serves to show that this custom of airing dumips. (300,000 for Geraldtoti). grievances is to be commended. Stone fruit and Pears-330,000 % flat, and Mr, Leslie: No; it proves the effectiveness 12,000 %Adump. of the Government's Citrus-150,000 dump, and 50,000 V/ flnt work. (This allows for use of some secant-hand Hon. J. T. TONIKIN: I should say rather cases).- the effectiveness of the criticism-and there Grspes-50,O00 %{flat and ninny second-lind is more to follow. cases used but not for export. Bainnas.-.50,000 D.F. type. The Premier: Is that a threat or a promise? That indicates a total requirement of Heon. J. T. TONKIN: t is a promise. 2,750,000 cases. As I indicated, many secoAl- We can see how we get on with this first band eases have been used for the packing- instalment and so cut our coats according to of grapes and sending them to muarket. the cloth with the second instalment. That has been done over a period of years. I stress that because it has a certain hearing MR. REYNOLDS (Forrest) [8.51): First on legislation that I hope the M1inister will things come first, and there is a possibility see the wisdom of introducing in the that after the debate on the Address-in-reply interests of the fruitgrowers. To simplify has been resumed, it will ha suspended to the matter and to give a brief survey of the enable price control measures to he dealt different types of eases required for the with. handling of fruit I would divide the require- Ron. J. B. Sleeman: Who suggested that? ments into two main classes. The first would include the eases necessary for fresh Mr. REYNOLDS: I know it is a possi- and dried fruits, which should he made bility, and commonsense tells me- from seasoned or semi-seasoned wood. Mr. Hoar: What good will that dol Prior to the war the various mills in the Mr. REYNOLDS: I feel there are cer- karri forests produced over 1,000,000 eases tain matters vital to the interests of the per annum, and today we are using about fruitgrowers of the State that should be 60 per cent. karri and 40 per cent. jarrabl. mentioned at this stage. I also desire to Those eases had great value from the point touch on several issues affecting the deplor- of view of the fruitgrowers because over a able financial position into' which the State' period of years the use of that type of case [27 JULY, 1948.] 445 created goodwill. English buyers of our short, assuming we are only going to harvest fruit bought the products packed in the red an average fruit crop. Today, instead of cases because they know the consignment exporting our fruit in 100 per cent. karri had been honestly and genuinely packed and cases, we are turning out a mixture of cases that they would be obtaining good samples half janrah and half karri. Our production of our apple production. As members was 100 per cent, karri and it is essenti4., know, Western Australian apples, particu- that kani be exported for many reasons. I1 larly'the Granny Smiths, are considered to have here the dimensions of various cases, be equal to the world's best. The second and this is a particularly important point. class would include the cases used as butter There are two ends on a ease. They are boxes, soap boxes, pear cases, crates for 14j in. by 10 in. by 11/16th in. This equals canned fruits, vegetables and a host of other 1.337 super feet, and when it is finished it sundries. equals 1.082 super feet. The two tops- 194 in. by 4frin. I desire to stress particularly that today, by 4 in.-and the two bot- unfortunately, instead of producing karri toms, of similar dimensions, equal .568 eases which, as I have pointed out, have con- super feet. The six sides, each 191 in. by stituted our best trademark-in fact, the 4j in. by 5/16th in., equal 1.128 super feet, making a total of 2.778 super feet. redwood boxes were the best advertisement -we could devise-we are buying hundreds of I mention this because our karri cases are thousands of whitewood cases and, in effect, much sought after in England for veneer we arc throwing away the goodwill we have purposes. In England they are turned into, created over the years, at very considerable veneers and have been sold for as high as expense, for the fruitgrowers of this State. 15s. each. These veneers from karri arm That is the point I want to stress to the used for ornamental purposes and we have Minister. In reply to a question this after- established a very profitable trade through noon he said that 200,000 whitewood cases the export of these cases. The timber posi- had already been ordered and another tion is getting worse; in fact it is desperate. 200,000 were being ordered. My informa- It was admittd by the Minister in reply to tion is that over 500,000 cases have already a question that four big mills in this State been ordered. had gisen an assurance that they would pro- In reply to another question the Minister duce 350,000 cases this year. But on the mentioned that last year we imported 300,000 Minister's own information they have only cases at a cost of s. each. When I was at produced 607,000. I think they need to be Donnybrook last year-I have been there on told where they stand. many occasions since, but I wish to refer to The Minister for Housing: They are the particular visit I have in maind-I found milling timber for houses. that fruit was being received into cold storage, and I was amazed when I saw that Mx. REYNOLDS: I thank the Minister. they were packed in whitewood cases. I The price of No. 2 fruit cases f.o.r. at mills made inquiries and found that the cost of in 1938-39 was 8s. 9d. a dozen. Today it is those eases was 3s. 5d. each. Last year the 19s. 9d., an increase of 120 per cent. I are authorities under the Apple and Pear surprised at the member for Geraldton, who Acquisition Scheme paid for those cases, represents a tomato-growing industry, laugh- and naturally the cost had to be recouped ing at what I am saying. If the growers out of revenue. In other words, it was realised he was doing that and making a passed on to the people of Australia by joke of this desperate position, he would way of taxation. That is the unfortunate probably not be so ready part. to smile. These fruit eases are 19s. 9d. a dozen, having in- Instead of-sending our fruit away in red- creased by 4s. 6d. a dozen since the present wood eases, we are importing half a million Government took over. I say very seriously whitewood cases. I do not know whether that we should establish in the karri area a that shocks the 'Minister, but it absolutely mill with a capacity of one million cases a appals me. From information I have from year. various sources, despite the fact that we are going to import about 500,000 white woods, The Minister for Housing: That is under we wilt still be 400,000 or 500,000 cases contemplation. 46 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. REYNOLDS: I am very pleased to port of the Commission, which I will hand hear that, because I have been advocating it to the Minister, because I think it is some- for some time. thing he should see and because it embodies Hon. A. R. G. Hawke: It is only under the results of six years' experience in the contemplation!I handling of fruit cases. One sentence in the report reads- Mr. REYNOLDS: Well, it is a possibility. This question involves the consideration of The Minister for Housing: It was not even several basic principles. Many growers do not under contemplation before I came on the fully appreciate how large a factor in their scene. net profit is the cost of cases and containers. Mr. REYNOLDS: We should endeavour That is the point I wish to stress. We are to get some slicing machines here. Last paying up to 4s. for imported cases and year, when I went to the Eastern States , I local cases only cost Is. 7jd. That is a big saw some of these machines, and I think economic factor and involves a great loss to they could be used to great advantage in the the growers. Shortly we will have the production of material for fruit cases. I spectacle of a grower on one side of the hope the Minister will give that considera- road paying up to 4s. each for eases and tion, though I know that the ends wvould the man on the other side paying Is. 7/2d. have to he from sawn timber. But in for the locally produced case. I want to Queensland and Newv South Wales I saw stress that because it is unfair, apart what was being done by the use of slicing altogether from the fact that it means a big machines. economic loss to the fruitgrowers of this State. The report goes on- History was made in Queensland by the We have shown in our preliminary report introduction of the Fruit -Marketing Organi- that the actual return to a group of growers at sation Act, which gave statutory powers to Stanthorpe for tomatoes marketed by them in fruitgrowers to bring about orderly market- 1939-40 was about 39. per half-bushel ease. At ing of Queensland fruits through an oigani- that time a new half-bushel case-not made up-cost 6d. The case-cost then represented 17 (called The Committee of Direction sation per cent of the gross return to the grower. It is known in Queens- of Fruit Marketing. That was the cost of the ease to the farmers land es the C.O.D., and it is in no way con- -17 per eent.-and that was on only Oad. nected with the Department of Agriculture. But now we are importing cases at 4 s. each. Though it has certain compulsory powers, It is ail alarming position and a very costly the individual rights of growers are para- one for the farmers of this State. The re- mount. 'The Act, to my way of thinking- port continues- and I have studied it carefully-is a very With other commodities the percentage was valuable piece of legislation for the handling lcss or msore according to the selling price of of perishable commodities such as fruit and the commnodity, 'hut it is apparent that case- vegetables, and does not give complete cost is a large factor in net profit-not so large ownership ats does pool legislation; which is in wartimie with high prices ruling, but it will a very important thing, the main idea being be again a greater factor when prices return to normal. that the rights of the growers are always considered. That is the vitally important part. Today they can carry the high costs because they The Act can be applied to any crop con- are getting high prices, but when theY get stituting a problem. Mainly the powers dowrn to bedrock again, which they probably under the Act have been used in handling will do within three or four years-I hope in the factory portion of crops. 'Growers not sooner, but prices must recede-they Queensland-and I met many of them when will feel the position. I again quote from I was over there attending some of the the report- meetings-told mec that they appreciated Beforc the war second-band cases were little 'what the Act had done for them and said used in most districts, bat war necessity has they would not willingly revert to the caused a larger use of second-hand eases, the chaotic conditions of individual barter be- distribution of which is controlled by the tween grower and canner which obtained in -Second-hand Cases Act. pre-C.O.D. days. In 1944 a Royal Commis- When it is realised that some millions of eases are used annually the economic loss to sion was appointed to investigate the activi- growers caused by using new eases becomes ties of the C.O.D. and also the Secondhand apparent and it is plain that the use of second- Fruit Cases Act. I have here the final re- hand cases should be encouraged in peacetime. [27 JULY, 1948.)14 47

In many districts in New South Wales re- The object of the legislation is merely to turnable eases with hinged lids have been in conserve, control, and adjus supplies of use for many years. In Sydney there is at least eases. The first work of one agent who for years has used a profitable secondhand fruit system whereby hie owns the cases and hires the committee was to appoint dealer and them out to his growers at so much per use. give them a license, and also to arrange the We think that the whole question of con- prices at which the various sized cases tainers calls for much wider consideration than should he purchased by the dealers, and later it has received; so fur as we could learn the sold to growers or others. Actually that problems have been attacked by the authorities was tho first work done by the committee. concerned in a disjointed manner. The price fixed for secondhand fruit cases Not only the question of second-hand cawcs is involved; there arise also, the questions of the prevented the exploitation of the gr-owers most suitable type of package for each partic- and it was also lower than the price obtain- uilar sort of commiiodity and the standardisation ing for secondhand fruit cases prior to the of packages in conjunction with other States, introduction of the Act. The advantageous New South Wales. particularly price fixed for secondhand cases in Queens- The Act was a brilliant one, and it was land lei] to a great demand from New South introduced in 'November 1029. The final Wales for a supply of eases, despite the finding of the Royal Commissioner was that fact that the freight on them was 6d. each. the C.O.D. was the champion of the growers, Since the Act -was introduced, 173,000 cases or the champion on which the growers should were handled in April, May and June of rely to fight their battles in the strenuous 1941. Ia 1942 there were 700,000 eases days to come. The composition of the handled, and 1,007,000 cases were handled C.0.D). is very interesting. It is made up in 1943. In 1044 there were 1,300,000 cases from the various fruit growers' associations bandied, in 1945 there were 7,600,000 and and group sectional committees, as well as in 1946 there were 1,780,000 cases handled. eight members of the executive. In all When I was over there I was told that they there aire ten members and one Government hoped to handle just on 2,000,000 cases in -nominee.. I have merely given this brief 1947. Mly suggested amendments to the history and composition of the C.O.D. be- F ruit Cases Act, 1919-1933, are as follows: cause it is such a power in Queensland, and Section 2: Add to definitions- it has been of great benefit to the fruit and "Dealer'' means a person who (and vegetable growers. Moreover, it played a whether alone or in conjunction with any large part in the introduction of the second- aother- business) exercises or carries on the business of dealing in or buying or selling hand Fruit Cases Act which became law in secondhand cases. November 1940. Time has proved it to he ''Minister" means the Minister of Agri- a very valuable piece of legislation for the culture or other Minister of the Crown fruitgrowvers and the vegetable growers charged for the time being with the adminiis- alike. tration of this Act, The Act has been instrumental in the After Section 8, insert new section taken for Queensland Act (mu tatis mutandis) as fol- handling of the eases for re-use in the fruit- lows- growing 'industry. Its economy has had its. SA. License may be limited by (Mfinister) national reflex in the lessened demand for to district. (See Section 11 of Queensland new timber, nails, labour, finance etc. 31cm- Act,' hers, therefore, can see that it is a big eco- SB3. Dealers to be licensed. (See Section 12 nomie factor. That is the point I want the of Queensland Act). Minister to note. Prior to the war, Queens- 8C. Period during which license or renewal land growers looked on the use of second- therz-of remains iii force. (Sea Section 18 of hand cases with a sort of contempt and Queensland Act). scorn. But today they realise what a boon SD). Offences by licensed dealers. (See Sec- and benefit they are. When they conceived tion 14 of Queensland Act). the idea of introducing the Secondhand SE. Form of license. (See Section 15 of Fruit Cases Act, serious thought was given Queensland Act). to creating a sort of central exchange to S7. Orders for secondhand cases to be sub- mnitted to the (Minister). (See Section 16.of handle the cases. But after much con- Queensland Act). sideration they realised that the cost of this 8G. Secondhand ecases not to be purchased exchange would be too great, and they de- or used without anthoritj. (See Section 17 cided to appoint dealers to handle the Act. of Queensland Act). 48 48[ASSEMBLY.]

8H. Secondhand eases to be bought and power, I felt that the whole Budget fell sold through licensed dealers. (See Section rather flat. I do not think the Premier has IS of Queensland Act). any such scheme. If it does exist, S1. How secondhand ease which is unfit for it has ase, may be disposed of. (See Section 19 of not been mentioned in this House and the Queensland Act). Premier must be either afraid or ashamed 8J. Cancellation of licenses. (See Secti6a of it. He toured the country, telling the 20 of Queensland Act). people that they must increase production 8K. Record of conviction and forfeiture of because the United Kingdom needed food. license. (See Section 23 (2) and (3) of It is easy to tell people to do these things- Queensland Act). Section 13: Add new paragraphs (e) and The Premier: Mr. Chifley is also telling (d). (See (a) and (h) of Section 24 of the people that. Queensland Act). Section 11: Insert the word ''fees.'' Mr. REYNOLDS: The Premier also went to the North-West and told the residents I have given the matter considerable thought, that they needed more population, and that and when in Queensland was assured that he would he pleased to help them. I do that Act had proved a great success. I re- not know whether Mr. Chifey has told ceived a good deal of literature from the them the same thing. It is easy to tell general manager of the C.O.D., who spoke people such things, but members would highly of the legislation. I put three lead- rather be shown a simple and easy way in ing questions to him and in reply he said which these objects could be achieved. Mem- that it had not been found necessary to treat bers would like to know how to overcome secondhand cases-that is very important- the shortage of labour, of implements, fer- The Minister for Housing: Is that treat- tilisers and other essentials, as well as how ing them by fumigation to solve the vital problem of housing. I Mr. REYNOLDS: It has not been found thought wve were to see all these things necessary. As maximum prices have been done but, instead of those difficulties being arranged under the regulations, the dealers overcome, we are getting deeper into the do not pay top prices unless the eases are mire, the cobwebs and the muddle. The clean and in good condition. They are ex- Premier has failed to give any display of perts, and will not purchase the cases un- business acumen. From what he said, I less they know they are buying good stuff. thought taxation would come down, that The committee also advertises in trade houses would be erected by the thousand, journals, asking storekeepers to keep their and that everyone would be smiling and eases clean and in good condition. I was moving towards a new world. informed that paper liners are used ex- The Premier: Why did you think taxa- tensively by the growers. They cost 33s. 9d. tion would come down? per thousand, or two-fifths of a penny each. The number of times a ease can be used Mr. REYNOLDS; None of those things varies with the type of case. The bushel has come about. If the chairman of a com- dump cases can be used three or four times pany failed to tell the shareholders how for apples and oranges, and then several he was going to equate income with expen- times for paw paws, lettuce and so on. This diture, and show a little profit, he would has something to do with our unfortunate not be chairman for long. The Premier purchase of softwvood eases. The lighter should place before the Chamber a state- eases, such as those from Canada, cannot be ment explaining how he intends to develop used more than two, or, in exceptional in- our natural physical resources to enable the stances, three times. I will pass all this State to get out of the morass of debt into information over to the Minister. which he is speedily driving it. The Pre- I listened with great interest last year inier is doing just the very opposite to to the Treasurer introducing the Budget. what he would like to he doing.' He talks I hoped, in vain, that he would give some about Communism, but within the next indication that he had a well-balanced and three or four years we will be so saddled integrated scheme for the future develop- with debt that this State will be a breeding ment of our natural resources. After he ground for Communism. had told the people of the State what he The Premier: There was a debt before would do if his Governmient came into this Government tame into power. [27 JULY, 1948.)]4 49

Mr. REYNOLDS: Yes, the ordinary one, redtly, as I know other people can figure but the Premier has increased it substan- correctly, there were 10,000 homes short tially. I have made a very close study of and dluring the last three years we have several budgets and I consider that we built almost 0,000 homes-not quite 6,000, should have more business men in the Gov- but I am giving the Premier the benefit of ernment. That is very obvious. to me. the doubt-which leaves a balance of 4,000 Hon, A. H. Panton: There are too homes. many lawvycrs. Mr. MaLy: What about the people who M1r. REYNOLDS: Probably, but it is an have been married sincee9 easy matter to spend and go on squander- Mr. REYNOLDS: Realising that our tar- ing the people's money. I can do that if get is :3,000 houses per year, and the great- I am given a few millions to spend. Last est number of homes that we have built in year I sat in this House and listened to any one year wvas 2,020 last year, it can be almost every speaker week after week, seen that we are slipping behind by at month after month, and I saw Bill after least 400 houses per year on our target. As Bill introduced, and what were they? I wellI as that, people are marrying at the challenge thb Premier to show me that more rate of 5,400 per year and it is estimated than eight or 10 of them were of a nature that at least 8D per cent. of those people beneficial to this State. require homes, which means that instead The Minister for Housing: There was one of our target being 3,000 homes per year, good Bill towards the end of the year. it sh~ould be at least 6,000 homes per year. Tha. is the uinfortunate position into which Mr. REYN OLDS: It depends upon the we ;ire drifting, and while I realise that Bill to which the Minister is referring. His the Minister is endeavouring to do the best mind probably differs fromn mine. he possibly can I -want to stres the The Minister for Education: You know point that vcry shortly-we have heard this quite well. It was throwving money about fron Mr. Caiwell, and I know that the Pre- and you objected to that. mnier has mentioned it also--there is aLpos- Mr. REYNOLDS: While sitting idly lis- sibility of a big immigration influx which tening to various members and to Bills will probably reach 10,000 immigrants per being introduced, I felt that it was a lot year. When we realise the arrears in our of time wasted, and to my mind the Bills hous~e-building programme and in schools, were just "chbicken-feed." I saw reference private and public buildings, shops, factor- to that in the lending article of "The West ies, new hotels and new boarding houses, I Australian," and "The West Australian,"~ ask the 'Minister is it right that we should of course, does not treat the Labour Party export 4 per cent. of our timber? We pro- very favourably. duced 10,000,000 cubic feet of timber last The Premier: They publish all your let- year. ters, do they not"? The Minister for Housing: It is just over Mir. REYNOLDS: They realise that I 30 per cent. must have something good. If they did not Mr. REYNOLDS: Last year we produced think that they would not grant me the 10,000,000 cubic feet of timber and there space. are 50 cubic feet to a load. If you divide The Minister for Education: Do not spoil 50 cubic feet into the 10,000,000 it means a good speech by being egotistical. you have 200,000. In that case we pro- duced last year 200,000 loads, and we ex- Mir. REYNOLDS: I am not doing that: ported 78,045 loads which is over 40 per The Minister is trying to pull my leg. Three cent. years ago the Wise Government held an iavestigation to discover how many houses The Minister for Rousing:. I am afraid were required in this State, and according your figures do not work out. We will oiis- to the information available to me the num- cums that later. ber was then 10,000, despite the efforts of Iffy. REYNOLDS: If the Minister can the Housing Comnmission and also the as- prove otherwise, I shall withdraw my state- surances of the Minister the other evening ments. Last year, when in New South when he said there were only 7,000 homes Wales, I investigated the housing position, required. If I am able -to figure out ear- and I havea had forwarded to me a journal 50 50ASSEMBLY.]

called "Construction." On the 22nd May With reference to your conversation with me, of this year, I saw a very interesting article I wish to inform you that the Government is very interested in your proposal for accelerat- published by 'Mr. Ian Langlands. who i$ in ing the construicion, of Denaro Air Flow Build- the Budlding -Materials Research Depart- ing Block houses in this State. ment of the C.S.I.R. Hle has made a very The flenaro block has, of course, already extensive tour of America, England and 'been subjected to severe tests by the State Europe investigating the various materials Housing Commission and has been certified by used for construction purposes. I think the Commission as being suitable for use in his comment will be of itnterest to mem- house construction in Queensland. bers as it vitally affects the house building The Government is also interested in the programme. It is as follows:- piortalble machine which has beenr produced for the manufacture of Dearo blocks. Effectively Mr. Ian Langlunds, Officer-in-charge of used, these machines should do mnuch to allevi- Building Materials Researchl, C.S.1.R., recently ate many of the housing difficulties whlich are returned from a visit to Amnerica, Great Britain, experienced in outback areas today. Oi'e of and Europe, during which hie reviewed building the principal difficulti~s has been the long dis- practice and the materials utilised in the vari- tance over which the more conventional type of ous countries. buildiiig materials has had to be transported Hlis commentq have recently been published from the point of production. This, of course, b y C.S.1.R., and we have extracts therefrom. has a very marked effect on the final cost of construction. Building in America. It is generally con- sidered that the anufacture of common bricks With these portable machines, in ninny cases is a dying industry in the U. S. A. as they are local sand and gravel can be used with the having very great difficulty in competing with result that an adequate supply of blocks can concrete blocks which are now beiag used very he manufactured to meet the requirements of largely as a backing to face bricks and also the particular area at a very reasonable cost. for partitions. Many of the more progressive I should be glad if you wvould keep me briekyvards are setting up their own concrete informed of the progress -you make in this block7 factories. direction. Concrete blocks increasingly used: The use That letter is signed by the Hon. E. 11. of concrete block walls is increasing in all parts Hanlon, Premier of Queensland. of the country. The most common unit is the normal 16" x 8- x 8- (actual 1~i" x 7%" I will hand this to the Minister, because x 7rA") cord block made from light weight it is something he should see, together -with aggregate such as cinders, pumice, expanded another letter I have here addressed to clay or foamed slag and weighing about 30 lbs. 'However, in Southern California a smaller nom- Mr. Crammoand by W. J. Young, Commis- inal 12", x 8" x 4" (actual 11V" x 7-4" sioner of the Queensland Housing Commis- x 3%") cord -block made from dense aggre- sion. I think that these men have evidently gates and weighing about iSlbs. is popular. proved that this type of brick is a great A certain amount of trouble is being encoun- success. They say that the red brick ja tered because of the opposition by bricklayers to handling the concrete blocks due to their a dying one, and I will have pleasure in weight and this is largely the reason for the handing on their eomments. There are uso of a smaller and lighter block in Southern many matters on which I would like to California. touich regarding the financial aspect, but Modular co-ordination using a 4"1 module, is as time is fairly well advanced and I have becoming very widely adopted throughout spoken at considerable length, I wvilt sit U.S.A. and practically all concrete blocks are down because I realise there may be other produced to modular sizes. Brickmakers are rapidly changing over to this system and door speakers. and window manufacturers co-operate. Concrete block walls are normally treated ex- HON. A. B. G. HAWKEl (Northani) ternally with cemient paint or by rendering. [9.451: Every member, as a matter of duty, However, to reduce costs it is not uncommon to is keenly interested in the financial posi- see untreated walls in the cheaper houses. Be- cause of the use of solid walls the same trouble tion of the State. No member who has from moisture penetration is experienced as given serious consideration to the financial with the solid clay brick walls. position can be anything but worried at the drift that has occurred in this State in I will now quote from a letter addressed to recent times. The deficit for the last finan- A. Crainmond, Esq., Crammond Radio cial year was £352,000, 'which in itself is a 'Manufacturing Company Prop. Ltd., 8 very substantial sum, but the position is Queens-street, Brisbane, from the Premier's made ever so manch 'worse when it is re- Department in Queensland. It reads- membered that a special grant of £1,000,000 [27 JULY, 1948.J]5 51 from the Commonwealth was included in understandable terms in the speech of the the State revenue figures before the final Lieut.-Governor- deficit was made. In addition to the The Minister for Housing: We pinched special grant of £1,000,000, a further sum that from Mr. Chifley. of approximately £2,000,000 by way of grant was also made available by the Comn- Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: -1 think mnem- nionwealth to the State. hers would more fully and clearly under- stand just what is in the minds of Minis- I was not able to gather from the inter- ters. What I am anxious to ascertain, if jections of the Treasurer during the course possible, is whether the Premier and his of this debate whether he regarded the de- Government have ady short-range policy to terioration in the finances of the State as deal with the present deterioration in the being of a very serious nature. I was not finances and also whether they have a long- able to understand from what he said term policy to deal with the problem. whether he thinks the present position is really serious. in fact, the impression he All that the Government appears to have gave me was that he and his Government done up to date is to make approaches to had no option in the matter of expenditure the Prime Minister whenever additional because, as lie stated by interjection, there finance has been required to nieet the de- was never a time when demands upon the mnands granted by this Government. It is extraordlinary that the members of Government were greater than they are atL the Gov- the present time. ernment, should so frequently approach the Prime Minister with requests that lie should I do not know whether the Treasurer make available to them very large sums of imagines that because demands upon a money because, when they are not asking Government are great it is called upon him to hand out large sums of money, they willy-nilly to find all the money necessary arc condemning and abusing him on some to meet all the demands even to the extent subject or other. I think it says a g-reat of going head over heels into debt, if the deal for the temperament of the Prime Mlin- money required to meet such demands is ister that he overlooks entirely the eondeni1- not readily available. I think from what nation and abuse that Ministers of this I have seen and heard that might easily Government heap upon his head when it be the attitude of the Treasurer and the suits them, and yet makes available large Government. sums of money to assist this Government to The Premier: To what expenditure do you keep the State solvent and meet the vari- object ? ous obligations it has assumed. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: I hope later in When the Leader of the Opposition was my speech to provide some proof for my speaking and criticising the Treasurer in opinion in that direction. There is a re- relation to sonic aspects of public finance, ference in the Lieut.-Governor's Speech the Treasurer and the member for Mt. to what is considered to be a pre-requisite Marshall wanted to know what happened for the restoration of economic equilibrium when the present Leader of the Opposition in Western Australia. was Treasurer of the State. If inforntion HonF. J. S. Wise: That is a nice word; on that point would assist in a considlers- tion of the present serious position of our that is what the Premier prays for. finances, there might be somevalue in rais- Hron. A. R. 0. HAWKE: Economic equili- ing the question. However, from the point briumi. Significantly enough there is no- of view of our present financial difficulties, thing in the Speech as to what is a pre- what does it matter what happened last requisite for the establishment of financial year, five years or ten years ago? equilibrium. I do not know whether mem- The Premier; It does matter, because we bers of the Government feel that financial still carry the burden today. equilibrium will automatically follow the establishment of economic equilibrium. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Yes, we %till carry the burden for what might have been The Minister for Housing: I think the done or what might not have been 'lone two; one would be the same as the other. years &go, but of what value are thme hap- Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: If the Govern- penings of years ago when considering the ment would use more simple language and problem of overcoming the very serious dc- 52 52[ASSEMBLY.] terioration in the finances of the S'-ate--a Hon. A. R, Gr, HAWKE: Maybe the Mini- deterioration that has become so evident ister for Works possesses supernatural during the last 12 or 18 monthst powers enabling him to divine what would Hon. F. J. S. Wise: The Premier believes have happened had certain other things oc- in making posterity pay because it has done curred previously. The interjection of the nothing for us. Minister for Works reminds me that he, all the evening, and the Deputy Premier, for a Hop, A. H. G. HAWKE: The Premitir, in large part of the evening, have been very moving the motion for the House to resolve seriously studying what appeared to be a into Comumittee of Supply, gave no explana. printed document dealing with the finances lion at all as to why the deterioration in of the State, hut which could have been a the finnees bad oecurrsd so alarmingly printed document covering the detailed fig- and offered us not a scrap of information ures of the last State election. as to the ideas or the proposals the Hon. F. 5. S. Wise: You have guessed it. Government might have for overcoming the drift that is so obvious. He did suggest Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: If the second that in October he would tell us more about suggestion be correct, it might be that they the situation and that we, as members of have some advanced information regarding Parliament, would then be able to study the decision of the Commission on the re- in detail the many documents regarding the distribution of electoral boundaries for thic; finances of the State that would he pre- Chamber. sented with the Budget then to be intro- The Premier: If they have, I am sure duced, they are not the only ones. The Premier: That is the usual course adopted by every Treasurer. Hon. A. B. G. HAWKE: If they were studying the detailed figures of the last Ron. F. J. S. Wise: But not when in such election and not figures relating to the fin- a mness as this. ances of the State, I can only conclude from Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: In normal timies, the gloomy looks on their faces that the de- that procedure might be quite acceptable, cisions of the Commission axe not very but in such a period as the present, it is favourable to the Minister for Works andi far from being acceptable. I cannot imag- the Deputy Premier. ine the treasurer of any private firm, whose The Minister for Works: I will let you finances were relatively as bad as those of into a secret. I do not know a thing about the State now are, saying to his directors, it. I may be the only one in the House "Will you please vote me £:500,000 to en- who does not, but I know nothing. I imag- able me to continue to finance the affairs of ine there must be others. the firm, and I shall tell you in four or Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Possibly, as five months' time why I want the Money was suggested by the Leader of the Opposi- and why I want so much more at this stage tion, the Treasurer and his Ministers have than usual, and why the figures for the decided that the serious financial position previous period are as bad as they are'?" that has developed and the financi *al bur- The Minister for Education: If he told dens accruing from it, which become per- you, you would still he saying the same manent burdens for servicing the deficits, things or something like them. can be passed on, without any great sthr- rings of conscience, to posterity. That has Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: I do not think .bedn the outstanding feature of anti- so. The Premier could have cleared. the air Labour Governments in their financing of considerably had he, not at great length, the affairs of the State in years past. They explained why the deterioration in the fin- have followed the very easy course of in- ances had become so severe and what mpea- curring large deficits, of borrowing money sures, if any, he and his Ministers have in to finance the deficits and thereby making mind to improve the position during the the debt so incurred permanent, with the current financial year. interest and sinking fund commitments The Minister for Works: Had he dnne upon those debts which, unfortunately, so, this debate would still have ensued. You under the system of finance existing in Aus- know that. tralia and in most other countries of the [27 JULY, 1948.] 535

world, means that those debt commitments sonally their own, it does not matter so continue for generation after generation much. Consequently, the finances are and century after century. I ask the Pre- handled carelessly, with the result that de- mier and his Ministers--if that is their terioration sets in and becomes intensified easy-going idea about how this serious as time goes by. position might popularly be overcome-to The Premier: A reason without any foun- reconsider their outlook, because over the dation. last 30 years especially, taking the Comn- monwealth of Australia as a whole, we have Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE:- I think myself established a terrific burden of indebted- the main reason for the severe deteriora- ness for posterity to bear. tion in the State's finances is to be found in the pre-eleetion promises made by the We incurred a terrific burden of indebted- Government in 1947. The Premier almost ness in connection with World War I., an- complained tonight when he interjected that other great burden in connection 'with the the demands upon the Government were economic depression of 1930, and an even treater nowv than ever before. Surely he greater burden in connection with the re- expected, following the reckless and ex- cent 'war. The debt payments in connection travagent promises which he and his col- with all those burdens are passed on to leagces made in Mlarch, 1947, that the de- posterity. Therefore, I think that the inands upon him and his colleagues would people of this State, and particularly the be very numerous and exceedingly heavy Government, for its own popularity, would after they were returned at that election, be doing something radically 'wrong by I have no doubt, Mr. Chairman, and this adopting an easy-going attitude. The pub- I think can be put to the credit of the Pre- lie of this State, as well as the public of miier, that he has tried to resist to some ex- other States, has always been led to be- tent the great and increasing demands made lieve that Liberal Party leaders, becaluse upon him by his own colleagues in the most of them have had business training MNinistry and by the public. I should say, prior to becoming leaders, are more or less however, that each Minister has at least heaven-sent financiers possessing great fin- one very valuable private personal file, and ancial and business acumen and conse- that file would be the one containing all the quently are the persons who should be en- election promises made by the Liberal Party trusted with the Government of a State or and the Country and Democratic League a country, as they are sure to handle the during the last election campaign. finances carefully, sanely and safely and I can imagine the Minister for Education, bring. about budgetary equilibrium, if I for instance, going along to the Treasurer might use the Government's own language, and putting before him several requests and thereby benefit the taxpayers of the for expenditure from Revenue. I have to State or the country concerned. be careful on this point, because I have This 'theory has never worked out in placed some requests before the Minister practice. It matters not 'whether the period for Education myself. The Treasurer has has been one of difficulty or not, Liberal a look at them. He considers the total es- Governments have always made a mess of tim~ated cost involved and says to his Min- the finances of a State or a country-so ister for Education, "This is a tremendous far as Australia is concerned, at any rate. programme of expenditure from Revenue It is, of course, not easy to understand why and. we cannot possibly finance it-, we have these men, who manage their own private not the money available." The Minister finances and the finances of any business for Education discusses the matter quietly with which they might be associated excep- and peacefully with the Treasurer, who tionally -well, are not able to handle public stds his ground. The Minister for Educa- finances without getting them horribly tion still remains calmn, as he nearly always mixed and without running the State, or does. He reaches for his attache cae. the Commonwealth, into a considerable The Premier: -And threatens to resign. amount of debt. I am not able to answer the question as to why it happens that way, lion. A. IR. G. HAWXE: He produces except that it might be that these Liberal his personal file containing all the election Party leaders feel that when they are promises made by the members of the pre- handling public finance, which is not per- sent Government in -March, 1947. 54 54(ASSEMBLY.]

The Minister for Housing; A very modest The Minister for Housing: For a certain programme it was, amount of it. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKtE: In view of the Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: The Govern- production of such a file, the Premier has mient is putting a heavy responsibility on not a leg to stand on. He just writes an the Under Treasurer and the Assistant Under approval and puts his initials to the nmemor- Treasurer. Those officers are jealous in andum, and there is all that expenditure their desire to safeguard the finances of the gone!1 State, and they look ahead, not for a day The "Minister for Housing : You ought to or a week but for years ahead. Are not lote in the fiction line. You have a great those officers grievously concerned as to how the finances of this State wilt stand in the years to come? I am sure they are vitally Hon. A. R, G. HAWKCE: Then, of course, concerned with the question as to whether the mvmiorandumn has to go through to the Western Australia will he able to continua Treasury officers for their noting, and one financing safe!? in the future for the pur- does not require to have much imagination pose of keeping the State solvent and inde- to know how the 'Under Treasurer, and es- pendent. It is quite easy for any Govern- pecially the Assistant Under Treasurer, mient to go along steadily surrendering to would react. I can imagine the Assistant every demand made upon it by any person Under Treasurer having had many fits a or any section of the community, but there day since the Premier assumed office - will always come a day of reckoning. The Minister for Housing: Quite the con- For my part, I am sure the Premier is trary! extremely worried about the siituation. That recalls to my mind the fact that during a Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE-because of the debate in this Chamber last huge programme approved by the Treasurer year, I stressed the increasing dependence of people upon and sent by him to the Treasury officers to Governments. I tried to utter a warning provide the finance. as to the marked increase apparent over the The IinisterM for Housing:- I think you are previous few years in the dependence of drawing from past experience. p)eople on Goverinents. If I remember aright, the Hion. A. RI. G. HAWKE: No, I am tryin Premier, by interjection, agreed very largely to give what I consider to be a reasonable with the opinions I then expres- sed, so I think it can he picture of what actually happens. taken for granted that the Treasurer in not at all happy About The Minister for Housing: I can imagine the situation. I imagine that he approves that happening -years ago. of many of the demands made upon himn Hon. A. R, G. HAWKE: Does the Pre- and the many requests suibmitted with a mnier suggest that the Treasury officers are great deal of misgiving. ecnmpletely happy about the situation, and Hon. F. J. 8. Wise: le should be that, with utter abandon, they accept every- stronger; that is all. thing that has to be financed without any questioning of what is sent in and without Hon. A. R. G. HAWKR:- I know that any discussion as to where the money is to the two political parties forming the Gov- come f rom?-1 ernment today made extravagant and reck- The Minister for Housing: I suggest that ]ess promises during the election campaign, the Premier is looking after the finances and when they do that there is upon them very carefully. some responsibility to try, as far as pos- sible and within reasonably safe financial Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Facts arnd fig- limits, 'to live up to the promises they made. ures artecompletely against the suggestion The present Government, however, if it that the Minister now puts forward. carries on too long trying to do that, will The Minister for Housing: You should quickly find that the programme it pro- have thought of that before you advocated mnised the peeople 18 months or so ago is the 40-hour week. quite impossible and that it would un- Hon. F. J. S. Wise: Are you blaming the doubtedly lead the State to insolvency. What 40-hoair week for the position will happen has been alarmingly apparent [27 JuLY, 1948.] 555 in the trend during the last financial year. The Minister for Housing: YIP he had It will be appreciated that there alwvays learnt a lot. comes a time when a mortgagee becomes so Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Because the afraid of what is happening to his assets Government is not satisfactorily in office and the money he has advanced, that he and is not in a position to carry out its considers the only safe thing to do is to own real policy, the present situation is foreclose and. take charge. That is what created. It is well aware that if it puts happens when those who should have exer- into effect some of its policy, especially per- cised reasonably safe control have fallen tions of the Liberal Party's policy, the sup- down on their job. I know, too, that the present Government is in a, difficult position lport of the two Independents will be rapidly withdrawn and the Government forced to because it has not a majority of its own a general election. It is quite onderstand- supporters in this House. Any Government able, from a natural point of view, that the that has to rely upon unattached supporters Government would not attempt to put its in Parliament for the continuance of its real policy into operation, where any par- life is in an unenviable position. It feels ticular portion of it would offend any person that at any time it may have to face the or section of the community. Any such por- electors. tion of its policy is in cold storage. Instead Hon. A. H. Fenton:- Why bring that up?7 of giving effect to its policy, the Govern- The Minister for Housing: I think it is meat is carrying out a programme of saying rather a good idea. "Yes" to every demand made upon it so that Hon. A. RI. G, HAWKEI: As it is, the no-one in the State shall be offended. Coverranent is continuing its electioneering Hon. F. J. S. Wise:- That is the point. practices and has, done so from the time it took office. Hon. A. H. G. HAWKE: Thus, if any- one is to he blamed for the great and in- Hon. F. J. S. Wise: That is the trouble. creas ing number of demands upon the Gov- Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE. Continuance ernment by the people, it is the Govern- of its electioneeinlg by a Government be- men-, itself. As time goes on, Ministers will comes tremendously costly. find that the demands will continue to in- Hon. F. J. S. Wise: It is fatal to a erea~e, and become greater. ,country. Trae Minister for Housing: The demands The Premier: Give us a few instances. are made through the Arbitration Court for Hon. F. J. S. Wise: I can give many. additional wages. The Premier: I shall. be glad to have flon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Sooner or later them. the Government will be compelled, in the Hon. A. R, 0. HAWKE:- I think the interests of financial stability and solvency, present Government, right from the first to call a halt. 'When it does call a halt, so day it was elected, decided that at all costs many people will receive a jolt as to make it would strive to offend no-one and, as far its continued existence in power utterly im- as possible, to please everyone within thle possible. State. The Minister for Housing: That remains The Minister for Housing: I think that to be seen. at one time Mr. Scaddan had a deficit of lion. F. J. S. Wise: That is the position. £C1,000,000. The Minister for Housing: We have had Ron. A. R?. G, UAWKE: The present to dlean Uip the mess. a deficit of £1,352,000 for Government had lion. F. J. S. Wise: And what a job last year, and during the current financial you are making of it. year it will record a deficit of approximately, £C2,000,000. Hon. A, R. G-. HAWKE: I say quite The Minister for Housing: I do not think frankly that this is particularly a period so. when people should be discouraged from deAq Hon. A. H. Pantort: At any rate, you pending too much upon Governments. wcre glad to have Seaddan in Your party. Hon. F. J. S. Wise: Hoar, hear! 56 56[ASSEMBLY.]

Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: There was Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE. I suggest that never a period in the history of Australia or be studies closely each item of Government of Western Australia when there was less expenditure end I will. be amazed if he need for people to depend upon Govern- does not find several items&-- ments, because there was never a period The Minister for Housing: If you can wihen employment was more readily avail- mention two or three for my information I able. would be awfully glad. The Minister for Housing: What about Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: I suggest to the the Croldfelds?1 Minister that he study every individual item lion. A. R. 0. HIAWKE: There was of expenditure. never a period when people generally were The Minister for Housing: You have m. well off as they are today. studied it. You tell me two or three. The Minister for Housing: 'What about Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: I am rather the gold mines? too old in politics to be caught by that Hon. A. RL. G. HAWKE: Therefore, all sort of trickery. of the demands-well, not all of them, but The Premier: You have been badly many of them, should not be made. stumped this time! The Premier: Do you suggest that the Government should curtail its public works Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: No, I have not. programmeI The Premier: You are right out of your crease! Hona. A. RI. 0. HAWKE. If the Treat- urer would think seriously for a moment Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: No, because about that interjection, he would realise that in a moment or two I will show the Govern- the public works programme is financed ment where it has expended much money from Loan funds and not from Consolidated which it should not have expended. Revenue. The Premier: Abi, good! The Premier: I know; but it is a means Hon. A. Rt. G. IIAWKE: I will show the of employing a great number of people, and aovernment that; but I am Dot being caught you were talking about their being depen- by the trick the Minister is trying to put dent on the Government. We could get rid over. otf that depenidence on the Government. The Minister for Housing: I am not Ilon. A. R. G. HAWKE: When I talk tricking you. I am asking for information. about the dependence of people on Govern- I want to know. ments, I am not talking about those people Hon, A. R. G. JIAWrKE: I know that who give back to the Government in service every item of expenditure by a Government as mnuch as they receive in money in the way is popular with those it has benefited. cof wages or salaries. I am talking about The Minister for Housing: It has not other people in the community- benefited me. You tell me. The Premier: What other people? Hon. A. R. G-. HAWKE: I am not say- lion. A. RI. G. HIAWKE:- -who make ing to the Minister or to anybody that such demiands on the Government from time to anti such an individual should not have re- time for all kinds of expenditure. ceived some money made available to him. Thep Premier: 'What people?7 I am not going to say that certain organisa- The Minister for Housing: 'Who are tions or groups should not have received they? Government moneys made available to them, Hion. A. R. 0. HAWKE: There are vai because immediately the Minister and his ous groups from time to time. supporters would use that against me The Minister for Housing: I cannot politically. think of any. The Minister for Housing: Surely if you criticise and say that money has been lion. A. R. G-. HAWKE: The Minister wrongly expended by people who make cannot? demands, you should tell us two or three The M1inister for Housing: No. of the demands. [27 JULY, 1948.3 667

Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: I am going to Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: The Minister tell the Minister very shortly of Govern- is going- to know. ment expenditure that has been absolutely The Minister for Housing: I am going to wasted. know one, so far. The Premier: Good. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: A moment ago Hon. A. R. G, HAWKE: Absolutely the Minister was quite satisfied in his own wasted!I And I think that will legitimately mind that there was not one, but was hoping meet the question which he put to me. to trick me into condemning certain activi- The Minister for Housing: Yes, if you ties associated with the G-overnment finan- tell me who demanded the expenditure. ces Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: I will go even The Premier: No, further than that. I will prove it was not Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: So that-- demanded at all, and therefore the Govern- The Minister for Housing: Be very care- went is all the more culpable financially for ful. having expended the money. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: So that he The Minister for Housing: Well, that is could use my criticism of those special a new one now! items against us as a Labour Party. H1on. A. R, G, HAWKE: If the M1inis- The Premier: That is not so. Yea made ter for Housing had been checking the a statement; -we ask for proof. State financees as carefully as he would have Hon. A. R. G. HA&WKE: This Govern- had us believe a moment or two ago, he would ment, if famous for nothing else, is famous know all about it. for tile number of Royal Commissions it The Minister for Housing: It is news to has appointed. me. I am pleased to learn it, though. The Minister for Housing: By jove, and lion. A. R. 0. HAWKtE: It is a pity worth every penny, toolI that all the flnancial worry and responsi- Hon. F. J. S. Wis e: To whomI The bility and problems are left entirely on the counsel? shoulders of the Treasurer himself without Hon. A. R. G. HAWK{E: I should say other -Ministers assisting to the utmost de- that they have probably been worth every gree of their -capacity. penny to those who have obtained large The Minister for Housing: I am singular- amounts of moaey as a result of the Royal ly well informed. Commissions being appointed. lion. A. R. G. HAIWKE : To satisfy Hion. F. J. S. Wise: What did Mir. Negus the growing impatience of the Minister for get? Housing, I propose to tell him where the The Minister for Housing: They were Government has in one field-and that well overdue. should he sunicient-wasted a considerable Rion' A. R. G. HAWKE: Some who have amount of the Consolidated Revenue of the profited have profited very greatly. State. Theo Minister for Housing: If that is the The Minister for Housing: I would like only thing, it makes me smile! That is one more than one. One is very weak. extravagance!1 lion. A. R. 0. HAWKE: Of course, the Hion. A. R. G. HAWKCE: I make bold to legal mind of the Minister for Housing is assert that not one of the Royal Commis- already setting'up a defence. sions was necessary. The Premier: Don't let him put you ORf The Premier: Not even the Railways?7 the track I Hon. A. R, G. HAWRE: Not even the

- on. A. R, G. HAWKE: The Minister Railways! for Housing is establishing a by-path to get The Minister for Housing: You are the himself out of this difficulty, though he only man in Western Australia with that challenged me to refer to it. point of view. The Minister for Housing: It is not a Hon. J. T. Tonkin: I thought the Com- challenge but a request for infoi'mation. I missioner for Railways had that point of just want to know. view! 58 58ASSEMBLY.]

Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: As a matter of The Minister for Housing: Or even Can- fact, the practice of this Government in berra, appointing Royal Commission after Royal 1\r. Hegney: That is the Australian capi- Commission and committee of inquiry after tal. committee of inquiry is linked up with Hon. A, R. G. HAWKE: We would not what I was talking about a few moments think so when oftentimes we hear Ministers ago-the fact that this Government is still of this Government, and members support- electioneering. It does not want to offend ing it, speak. We would think Canberra anybody. If this Government had been was the capital of some foreign country. safely established in office none of these We could almost imagine it was the capital Royal Commissions would have been ap- of Soviet Russia. pointed. The Attorney General: It very nearly is The Minister for Housing:- Of course in some cases. they would!I Hon. A. R. G. HAWRE: Of course, the Hon. A. Rt. G. HAWKE: The Govern- Attorney General would naturally come to ment, through appropriate Ministers, would that conclusion, have investigated each problem and arrived Mr. Hegney: Ho sees red even at Collie. at certain conllusions and -would have had enough courage to put everfy one Of its Hon. A. R. G. HAWKCE: As we know, conclusions into operation. Because mem- the Attorney General never studies a thing bers of this Government are still election- dispassionately or with his reason. He is eering they did not want to make decisions always, moved to his conclusions and upon these questions! because whichever opinionis by prejudices which arc traditional decision they made upon any particular for goodness knows how many generations problem would have offended a considerable back. I am sure no member knows how number of people in the State. many Royal Commissions and committees of The MXinister for Housing: But the iaquiry have been appointed since this Gov- Government will have to make decisions. ernment has been in office, there have been so many. The Attorney General seemed to The Premier: Of course! suggesit that the Royal Commission into the lion. A. R. 0. HAWKE: Of course-- railways was justified. but when? The appointment of these Royal The Attorney General: I did not Suggest Commissions has postponed the making of it. decisions for over a year in the majority of The -Minister for Housing: I was the instances, and that has given the Govern- culprit. ment a clear year in which it has been able Hlon. A. R. 0. HAWIKE: I am sorry. to avoid its own proper -responsibility of investigating problems and making decis- When' I said Attorney General, I meant the ions on them. Minister for Housing, quite forgetting that he had been supplanted as Attorney General The Minister for Housing: Find the facts by a junior counsel of the Government. The first and then make your decision. Minister for Houising seemed to suggest that Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: What are the the Royal Commission into the Railways had 'Ministers and the officers of the Government been warranted. But it was not warranted. for if not to ascertain the facts, summarise The recommendations it made did not justify themi and make decisions on them? its appointment or the tremendous expense The Minister for Housing: Every Govern- involved in establishing it and carrying it on. mient takes that attitude. Look at the Attlee I do not know how much a week was paid Government and all the Royal Commissions to Mr. Gibson or to Mr. du Plessis, the two it is appointing. Royal Commissioners on that inquiry. Hon. A. R. G. HAWRE: I should hope The Premier: There is no reason why you the Mlinister for Housing would for once should not know. forget that be is a lawyer, and argue the Hon. F. J. S. Wise: We do not seem to squbject immediately before him, and not get that information. rush away to Great Britain, America or Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: We intend to perhaps Soviet Russia to get something to find out. I would say each of them was buttress his point of view. paid at least 1120 a week in aUl. [27 JULY, 1948.] 59

The Minister for Housing: Mr. du Pies- to do something about it; to delay the re- sis's services were loaned by the South sponsibility of having to make some deci- African Government. sion OIL the subject. I am sure everyone Hon. A. R1. G. HAWKE: Even if they of us remembers howv the Honorary Minis- were, I would think the Government would ter for Supply and Shipping used to stand feel obliged to do something about that out up in her place when she was in opposition of a sense of duty and decency. and rail against the failure of the Govern- ment to enforce the laws of the State in The Minister for Housing: 'Yes, but not connection with the S.P. bookmakers of necessarily £120 a week. Western Australia. Hon. A. RI. 0. HAWKE: What was Mr. Hon. J. B. Sleeman: What does it mat- Gibson paid? He was paid £120 a week ter what she said yesterday? for the Wundowvie inquiry. The Minister for Education: Seven times Hon. A. R. G. HAWKCE: She has now £15 is £105. been a member of the Government of this State for 15 months and the S.P. book- Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Only £105 a makers have continued to operate in the week was paid to Mr. Gibson in connection same fashion as previously. with the charcoal-iron industry at Wundowie. Minister: That is your Goodness knows how much the Railway The Honorary mine. You should have got rid Royal Commission cost altogether; and what fault, not the Betting Royal Commission and the other of the betting question long ago. You were Royal Commissions and committees of in- in office long enough. quiry cost. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: If the Honor- The Minister for Housing: They did not ary Minister has sufficient memory to cast make up the deficit. her mind back three or four years, she will know 'that Labour Governments brought Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: I hate to think legislation to this Parliament on more than what the legal costs were. Perhaps we will one occasion to resolve the problem in the obtain them sometime. way they thought was best. Hon. F. J. S. WVise: We will have to move The Honorary Minister: It was not the for them. rigrht way. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Since the report of Hon. F. J. S. Wise: Then let us have the Royal Commission on Railways was pb the right way. lished I have not spoken to one railway man -and I have spoken to mnany-who has not Hon. A. H. 0. HAWKE: I am sure it is said that everything that was recommended, the only way by which the problem will suggested or found out by the Royal Com- satisfactorily and permanently be solved. mission was well and widely known amongst I am sure the ways suggested by our Gov- the railway people of this State long before erment were far superior to the sugges- the commission wvas appointed. What dlid tions made by the expensive Royal Coinmis- the Royal Commission find out that was sion which the Honorary Minister's Gov- new' What did it suggest that was new and ermnent appointed to go into the problems worth knowing? in order that tile present Glovernment might The Minister for Housing: It is on the delay making any decision in eonnection Table now. with it. The Honorary Minister: You are very The Minister for Railways: Head the re- port. unjust. The Minister for Education: That is Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: I say that every penny spent in connection with that Royal what you call a supposititious case. Commission was wasted, and that every H1on. A. R. G. HAWKE: I think it is not penny spent from Consolidated Revenue on supposititious in any way. As a matter of the Betting Commission was absolutely fact, the present Government even hand- wasted. Without any shadow of doubt the cuffed its own Royal Commission in con- Government only appointed the Royal Corn- nection with the S.F. problem in this State. mission on betting to push ahead for The Minister for Housing: That was on another year the responsibility of having account of its policy statement. [6] 60 60(ASSEMBLY.]

Hon. A. R. CL. HAWKE: I am not con- the Attorney-General should suggest that cerned whether it wvas because of the policy it is. There is the alternative of sup- statement or not. I say it was most unfair pressing it completely. The Labour Goy- for the Government to decide portion of crnient tried to get Parliament to agree the problem itself and then to pass the to what we considered a complete solution unpopular remaining portion on to the of the problem. shoulders of a Royal Commission, and hand- The Minister for Housing: You brought cuff it in regard to the first portion. in Bills, introduced by private members. The Minister for Housing: Ut could not Hon. F. J. S. Wise: That is untrue. The do otherwise. Labour Government did not get a private Hon. A. H. G. HAWKE: It was an insult member to do anything about it. The Gov- to the Royal Commaission.. erment did it, and acted of its own voli- The 'Minister for Housing: It could not tion. bring in a recommendation against its The Premier: Then it did not have nunch policy. success. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I aim dismayed Hlon. A. R. G. HIAWKE: Hon. A. R. G. HA"WKE: I am sure the to some extent to think that any person Minister for Housing has a sufficiently was found who was willing .to act upon a good memory in this matter to know, be- with restricted terms of Royal Commission yond any shadow of doubt, that Labour genu- that character. If the Government is Governments did, as governments, intro- ine in its anxiety to hold fast to the policy, duce into Parliament legnislation for the which it gave to the electors during the purpose of trying adequately to deal with course of the last election camnpaigcn and this problem. feels that it has sufficient knowledge and understanding to give a clear-cut declara- The Honorary Minister: You did not deal tion of policy on the problem to the elec- wvith it. tors, why has it not sufficient capacity and Hon. A. R. C0.HAWIKE: What does the ability to make a declaration on the whole Honorary Minister propose to do, now that problenm? The answer to that is that the she is in office? Government does not want to make a deci- The Honorary Minister: I will tell you sionl on the problem, hut is trying to find that in good time. an easy way out so that it may, if possible, Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: avoid making any decision. That is why It is marvel- lous to see boxy the Honorary Minister has this Royal Commission was appointed, and developed the quality of procrastination why its hands were tied, to some extent. since she changed froni the Opposition The Minia4ter for Housing: It should have benches to the Goveriiment benches. Alt been appointed ycars ago. of the vital principles to which she held lon. A. R. Or. HAWKjE: The problem of so fiercely when in opposition seem now starting price hetting in Western Australia to have been pushed into cold storage. will never be solved by Royal Commissions. The Honorary M.Ninister: She still holrls The M1inister for Housing: They will help them. to solve it. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Then I do not know where she holds them. They must he lion, A. Ri. G. IIAWKE: I do not care held somewhere out of sight, hec-ause we whether this Government appoints a hun- never hear anything about them nowadlaysz. dred Royal Commissions to solve the prob- Of course, it might be that the 1em, which will only be solved when the Honorary Minister is trying to reform her colleagues 0overnment develops sufficient courage to in the Ministry, and that at every make clear-cut decisions and enforce them Cabin v4 meeting she preaehes solidly to them when they are made. about the principles she believed in when on the The Attorney General: If you except Opposition side of the House, but if she S.1P. bookmaking, no decisions have to he hopes ever to convert More than about two made. members of the Ministry to her point of lion. A. R. G. HAWKF: That is not the view I am sure she is due to be sadly dis- only alternative, and I am surprised that illusioned with the passing of time. [27 JLY, 1948.] I a The Minister for Housing: She would Minister particularly-he is looking very probably convert the Opposition. ,worried now-that I do not propose to deal The Honorary Minister: It is getting too with this subject at length, as possibly it late, may be debated more fully at some .other Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: The Govern- stage of the session, I understand that Amalgamated Collieries Ltd. will produce ment ha 8 wasted a great deal of the con- solidated revenue of the State on Royal 120,000 tons of coal each year f rom the Commissions and other similar bodies dur- open cut now being developed on these ing the past twelve months. For the pur- leases. pose of illustration, I have shown one direc- Mr. May: They must first find the coat tion in which the Government has wasted Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: And that the its income. I would like to know -whether coal deposits there will last four or five members of the Government are anxious to years--let us say five years. Amalgamated discover how they might save money. Collieries Ltd. ifil probably charge the The Premier; Yes, we are most anxious. Government 23s. per ton for that coat Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKtE: I have felt The Minister for Education: We will that the Treasurer, personally, would be see about that later on. anxious to know how he could save money. Eon. A. R. 0, HAWKE: They will The Premier:- I am trying hard to save it. charge for the coal on a cost-plus basis. Hon, A. R. G. HAWKE: I am sure the Ministers, and probably most members, arm Treasurer is trying hard, but I am not so aware that these leases were held at one sure about some of his colleagues. If the stage by the State Electricity COMxissio;l Treasurer is trying to save money and is the object being that that Commission anxious to know of ways of doing so, I should develop an open cut for the mining will be pleased to show him one channel of coal on the leases and produce its own in which a considerable sum of money could coal requirements. I believe the Commis- be saved by the Government. I do not know sion prepared an estimate of the cost per whether he is aware how much the Govern- ton that it would incur in producing coal ment pays out each year for coal. Possibly from the opeci ut that was to be developed the Minister for Railways knows. by it on these leases. I believe that esti- The Minister for Railways: We have a mate was approximately 11s, per ton. Pos- pretty good idea. sibly the Minister for Works could tell me whether that is correct. He should know- Hon. A. R. G. HAWKtE: The Minister The Minister for Works: When was that for Railways should have a good idea how figure fixed? much the Government pays each year to the coal companies-principally Amalgam- lion. A. R. 0. HAWK.E: If my memory ated Collieries Ltd.-fo-r coal. serves me rightly the Commission worked The Premier: Who made that agreement out an estimate of what it would cost to with them? produce each ton of coal in the open cut, which the Commission at that time pro-- Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: The Govern- posed to develop in the Black Diamond ment pays out a large sum of money to leases. the coalminiag companies each year. Mr. May: It is very near the mark too. The Premier: Governments have done so for years. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: Evidently the .Minister does not intend to tell me whether Hon. A. H. 0. HAWKE: At the moment my figure is correct. It may he that he I am not arguing whether the Government does not know. pays out too much or too little, but am fry- ing to establish a basis upon which I can The Minfister for Works: It is your proceed to show the Treasurer where he can, speech. during at least each of the next five years, Hon. A. R. 0. HAWKE: Even if the s~ave a considerable sum of money to the Commission were able to produce its coal State. Amalgamated Collieries Ltd. are now at only 5is. per ton less than the Govern- in possession of the Black Diamond coal ment will be charged by Amalgamated Col- leases. I wish to assure members, and the lieries it would -represent aLsaving to the 62 [ASSEMBLY.]

Glovernment of £25,000 per year, or what the State Electricity Commission of £125,000 over a period of five years. Victoria is that it is not much use trying The Attorney General: If it wvas pro- to inform them. The Minister for Rail- dued~ at 5s. per ton more the Government ways now states that the State Electricity would not save any money. Commission of Victoria is not a Govern- Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: If the saving nient instrumentality. were 10s. per ton it would amount to The Mlinister for Railways: Was Sir John 9 C50,0000 per annum or £250,000 over a Monash a Government employee period of five years. The Attorney General Hon. A. RI. G. HAWKE: I suggest to the quite excitedly interjected that if it cost Minister for Railways that he has a good the Commission more to produce coal at talk with, say, the Deputy Premier, and if a per ton rate than it would cost the Gov- he does so I think he will return to the ermnent to buy it per ton from Amalga- Chamber tomorrowv and probably make due mated Collieries Ltd. then the Government apology for having tried to mislead members would not save any money per annum-or as to what the State Electricity Commission over a period of five years-but would pay of Victoria really is. A great deal has been much more. I do not know whether the said by the Premier, particularly in excusing Attorney General has any knowledge of the deterioration in State finances and rising the members of the State Electricity Com- costs. Costs have risen and are still rising. mission anti I am unaware whether he has Hon. F. J. S. Wise: With MeLarty. any true appreciation of their qualities and Hon. A. RI. G. HAWKE,: They will con- experience. tinue to rise. Make no mistake about that. The Attorney General: I have a good The Mlinister for Railways: They will deal of knowledge of other State mines. come a crash. Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: The Attorney lion. A. RI. G. HAWKE: And in this General, like the Mlinister for Housing, is regard every member of the Government rushing to all parts of the globe including is tremendously culpable for the attitude New Soauth Wales, Russia, America and so which he took during the last election cam- 01n. paighn, because every member of the Gov- The Premier: in fact anywhere where ernment on that occasion misled the people there are State coalmnes. of Western Australia into believing that H~on. A. R. G. HAWKE: Would the there was nothing wrong with the State; there were no Treasurer say that the activities of the difficulties in the State; no State Electricity Commission of Virtoria in problems of shortage of labour or materials; its open cut coalmining operations at Yal- no problems about rising prices and rising bourn have been a failure? costs. No problems at all except that Wes- tern Australia had an inefficient Government The Attorney General: I have heard it andl that all difficulties could he resolved expressed by reputable engineers. quickly and satisfactorily by dismissing Hon. J1. T. Tonkin: Are you aware that that Government, which was a Labour Goev- they are going to spend a further ermnent, and putting into office a Govern- 10,000,000?1 ment made up of members of the Liberal Party and Country and Democratic League. The Minister for Railways; The State That is where members of this Government Electricity Commission of Victoria is not wvere eulpable, and because they were so a Government instrumentality. culpable on that occasion and in that re- The Attorney General: We are going to gard, they cannot legitimately put forward, spend money too. as an excuse or a reason for any failure on their behalf to finance the State properly Hon. A. R. G. HAWICE: I think if the or to deal with the State's problems, the Treasurer would investigate the experience of the State Electricity Commission in JTic- fact that costs are rising or that labour and materials toria in connection with its own coalminiug are in short supply. operations-and I would prefer him to do it Hon. F. JT. S. Wise: That was ridiculed rather than the Attorney General-he would by them. find that it has been eminently successful. I Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: They cannot am afraid the members of the Government legitimately lay hold of those reasons be- are so hopelessly confused and mixed about cause they surrendered any right to use them [27 JULY, 1948.] 63 when they misled the people as badly as sponsible as anybody else associated with they did some sixteen months ago. the Liberal Party for the knowledge that The MKinister for Housing: Nothing of the that promise was prepared and published in kind. the name of the Liberal Party of Western Australia over the name of the general sec- Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE:- I imagine that retary, M1r. Palmer. the Treasurer part icualarly-because he has two conscience;, a personal one and a politi- H~on. F. J. S. Wise: Mr. Ananias Palmer. cat one-regrets that he allowed the Liberal Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: So the Attorney Party progaganda racketeers during the last General will have to face up to that, election campaign to run riot with the The Premier: A rattling good man; ho articles and extravagant promises and under- will keen you on the move. takings which they gave to the people. I imagine that the Treasurer regrets that he Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: And the wrath allowed his name and photograph to be used of the housewives of this State_ so prominently in the propaganda that was Hon. F. J. S. Wise: If you keep up that thens issued in the newspapers, and in attittde, you will regret it. pamphlet form. Hlon. A. R. G. HAWKE:-will grow very The 'Minister for Lands: If that is correct quickly from almost the first day the At- the people-will deal with us at the next elec- torney General takes over price control in tion, wvill they not? Western Australia, and I doubt wvhether he Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: It is not neces- will ever again have a night of peaceful sary to worry at this stage whether the sleep. However, these problems the Gov- people will deal with the Government at the ernmen; members have created for them- next election. That is not an immediate selves. They sowed the wind wide and far subject for discussion. What I am pointing in March, 1947, and the reaping of the out to -the Treasurer-and he is grasping it- whirlwind is upon them. and what I am endeavouring to Point out to The Honorary Minister: Why don't you the MNinister for Lands, is that they cannot move a vote Of no confidence9 justifiably complain about rising costs or Hon. A. R1. G. HAWKE. I do not know about shortages of labour or materials he- that it is necessary to move a vote of no con- cause the Government, during the last elec- fidence. tion campaign, led the people to believe that The Honorary Minister: Then we will see they had the aaswers to all the problems. As where we are. a matter of fact, one of the advertisements of the Liberal Party told the people that Hon. A. R. G. HAWKE: This Govern- price would come down it the Wise Labour ment will have committed political suicide Oovernment were defeated. before many months have gone by, and if During- the recent referendum campaign it is going -to destroy itself I do not see on the qaestion as to whether permanent why we should take any action to do so. legislative powers should be given to the Commo~nwealth Parliament to control rents HON. A. A. MW.COVERLEY (LKimherley) and prices, the Liberal Party in this State [11.3): Before the Premier replies, I would told the people that prices would he reduced like to draw attention to one matter which if the referendum were defeated and the is disturbing my mind, and probably the State Government were permitted to control Government will be able to give some ex- prices in Western Australia. I should say planation in reply. In this morning's issue the Attorney General has already had some of "The West Australian;" I notice an an- sleepless nights about that promise and I nouncement that the Government has ap- ean assure him, as he probably knows, he pointed a new Commissioner for Native will have Affairs and whilst there is nothing wrong some more than sleepless nights. The Attorney General: I certainly never in that, I was astounded to see that the ap- pointment was not of some person within made that promise. Western Australia. I am not in a position, Hon. A. 1R. G. HAWKE: The Attorney of course, to know just how many applica- General cannot slip out of it in that easy tions were made for the position, or who fashion. The Attorney General is as re- the e--plicants were, but I have been ap- f

54 [ASSEMBLY.] proaehed by quite a number of prominent That was my opinion then, and still is, and people in the city asking why the Govern- whilst I believe anthropologists have ren- ment had to go outside Western Australia dered service to the Pacific natives they have to find a person of the requisite ability to not given any service to the natives of Aus- fill the position of Commissioner of Native tralia. In my opinion they are 50 years too Affairs. I am fully in accord with that in- late. The anthropologists may have set out quiry. a policy and been of great assistance some 50 years ago if we desired to reserve a sep- I did think, when I read the adver- arate race of full-blooded natives in Aus- tisement in "The West Australian" some tralia, but their work of today is of no time ago calling for applications for this value because the native has become de- position, when the Government stipulated tribalised. that all that was necessary was a person of great administrative ability, and he need In my opinion, with the decrease in not have any local knowledge of native af- numbers that has taken place, he will become fairs, that that was a great mistake, because absorbed in industry and within our com- I am convinced, firstly, that the person to munity. For that reason I cannot see any fill this position should have natural admini- virtue in anthropologists, and in saying that strative ability and, second to that import- of course, I do not know that the new ant factor, he should have some local know- Commissioner is an anthropologist, hut I lege of the natives in this State. I am would suggest that his years of employ- Dot ready to condemn the person appointed ment in the study of Pacific natives ha' without a trial, but I ala afraid the given him a different outlook altogether as wrong appointment has been made. to what will take place when he arrives in Western Australia. The natives he has been The Minister for Housing: This is a first 'used to in the Pacific are village people class appointment and we are lucky to get with more understanding than those he the man. will have to deal with in Western Australiai. lion. A. A. MT.COVERLEY: I hope, for There is a vast difference in village people the sake of the natives of the State, that and the nomads of Western Australia of the Minister has made a good selection. whom he will now become the administrator. The 'Minister for Housing: I have acted I feel that it is certainly a slur on the an the best advice in Australia. civil service and the general population of Western Australia, that we have got to go Hon. A. A. M. COVERLEY: I do not outside the State to pick a man with enough know that he did; he did not consult me, ability and intelligence to administer this to start with. I think he made a second department, particularly as the applications mistake there. I am not prepared to con- were called uinder Section 20 of the Public idema this appointment without giving the Service Act which gives the right to any man a fair trial, but I am satisfied that he outside person to apply for this position. is undertaking a very big job, without bay- I am not saying for one moment that it ig knowledge of our local affairs and na- ought to have been confined to the depart- tives. During my administration I laid down ment itself. I think that the policy adopted a policy for the guidance of the officers of by the Government in leaving it open was the department. This is still on the de- quite correct 'so as to get the best possible partmental files, end amongst other things man for the job, but I am disgusted to I said- think that we have got to go outside this On the point of administration, extremism of State to fill the positions of heads of our hysteria in anthropologists or Christianity is departments. I would like the Premier to uninecessary. give some explanation when replying to this Doubtless the services of ainthropologibts have been of value to an understanding of the debate. native rates in the Pacific 'who are not of the same origin as our native people. The Pacific MR. HEGNEY (Pilbara) [11.9]: Before people are numerous and their outlook is con- the Premier replies, I propose to make a tinous. But this is not so with our native people few brief comments in connection with the who appear destined to absorption, and in view of this we must take a common sense attitude matter bef ore the House and to deal as and train detribalised natives to the economics closely as possible with the matters rele- of white standards. vant to the Bill. Although the hour is (27 Juuv, 1948.]

late, I think this is an appropriate time issued by a competent authority appointed to voice my views in connection with what under any Act. According to my interpre- may happen to the Supply Bill-this tation, a member of the Legislative Assem- particular one being most untimely. I bly of Victoria might not be entitled to a think this is an appropriate time to speak vote for the Legislative Council. Yet, re- to the people of this country and point out cently, a minority dictated to the majority that, although they have democracy under on n Bill of the very nature of that with the Australian Constitution, there is no which We are now dealing. such thing as demiocracy in essence under In Tasmania there are 30 members in the Constitutions of most of the States of the Legislative Assembly and I8 in the the Commonwealth. I refer to the fact Legislative Council, N'ow the Tasmanian that, although the people of Australia be- Government is being forced to go to the lieve that they enjoy complete democracy, country. What the result will be, I cannot in at least two States recently. there has say, but whether it be favourable or un- been a minority dictatorship. favourable to the Labour Party, the point The Supply Bill now before us is on I make is that there is no such thing as all fours with measures introduced into the democracy tinder State Constitutions while Victorian and Tasmanian Parliaments. such a thing can happen. In Western Aus- What happened in, Victoria only recently? tralia the position, so far as I can interpret Although there was amajority in the Assem- the Constitution, is on all fours with that hlv in favour of the Bill and the Govern- of Tasmania. if this Supply Bill were ment was endeavouring to govern the coun- passed by this Chamber konight and the try, the Legislative Council, which is Legislative Council refused in due course to elected on a restricted franchise, dictated pass it, what would happen? to the majority by refusing to grant Sup- Honi. A. H. Panton:- We would not get ply. The Legislative Council of Victoria forced the Government to go to the country any pay. on an entirely extraneous issue, and owing Mr. HEGNEY: The existing position is to the "impropaganda" prejudice and mis- all too serious to be permitted to continue leading information conveyed to the people for ever. -I firmly believe that the time is per medium of wireless broadcasts and the over-ripe for a drastic alteration of the Con- commercial Press, a majority of the people stituion to prevent a similar occurrence had their minds so warped, to my 'way of here. If the Labour Party were in office, thinking, that they voted the Labour Party the Legislative Council could refuse to pass out of office. a Supply Bill. I do not propose to quote The Premier: You do not give the people in detail the relevant sections of the Con- of Victoria much credit. stitu tions of Victoria, Tasmania and Western Australia, but thera is no doubt that the Mr. HEGNEY: Although there were 85 Legislative Council of this State, elected as members in the Victorian Assembly elected it is on a property qualification and rep- on an adult franchise basis, they were dic- resenting 'only a minority of the people, tated to by an anti-Labour minority in the cnu!d dictate on this Bill, although it is a Legislative Council elected on a property money Bill, and decide whether or not it qualification. Before one may have a vote should be passed. If another place refused for the Legislative Council in Victoria' one to pass this Bill- must own property of a certain value, or be a mortgagor, or 'have an equity in free- Hion. A. H. Panton: It will not. hold estate, be a graduate of any University Mr. HEGNEY: Then the Government in the British Doini ons or be a barrister would be compelled to appeal to the people. or solicitor. Although he may not hold Let me point out that, in such an event, freehold estate, a barrister or solicitor is there would not be a double dissolution. entitled to a vote. Others qualified to vote The Legislative Council's action would have for the Legislative Council of Victoria are the effect of simply sending Assembly a legally qualified medical practitioner, a members to the country. Would anybody, duly appointed Minister of any church or even a member on the Government Bench, religious denomination, or a person pos- seriously contend that this is a true inter- sessing a certificate of fitness to teach pretation of democracy? So far as I under- 66 66[ASSEMBLY.] stand the term, democracy means govern- from Canberra. It is done for political ment by the majority. purposes. The Attorney-General: Of the people. I know that the Government at Canberra, whether it be National, Liberal or Labour, M1r HE GNEY: Then I ask the Attorney makeiniistakcs. It may be extravagant in its General whether he believes that the Legis- expenditure. It may not always interpret the lative Council of this State reflects the -wishes or views of people in the outlying opinion of the majority of the people of parts of Australia; hut whichever way one this country. He knows that be would be looks at it, Canberra is the Australian on thin ice if he made an assertion of that capital and those people who criticise it in sort. At every possible opportunity, I have disparaging terms are certainly not encour- referred to what I believe is a blot on our aging a good Australian sentiment. I like Constitution, and, on every possible, occas- consistency, and wish to refer to a state- ion so long as I remain a member, I shall ment made recently by the Premier. My endeavour to impress upon the people that reference to outlying portions of Australia under existing conditions democracy iLh has prompted me to make this remark. essence is non-existent. Under the State Wh"en the Australian Parliament decided Constitution, one must be 30 years of age to introduce a Bill for the purpose of en- before one may nominate for a seat in the larging the Commonwealth Parliament, the Legislative Council. tUnder the Common- Premier, in the course of an interview re- wealth Constitution, provision is made ported in 'The Daily News" of the 18th for meeting deadlocks between the two February, 1948, made 'certain statements. Houses, andi if no agreement can be reached The report reads: between the Senate and the House of Rep- Premier Ross MeL~arty today expressed op- resentaRtives on certain issues, there is pro- position to the proposal to increase the size of vision for a double dissolution, For both the the Federal Parliament. It was further proof of the Federal Government's determination to Senate and the House of Representatives, create a greater monopoly at Canberra, lie maid. the adult franchise obtains. That is demno- He thought there were already sufficieat mem- cracy in itself. There is no restricted fran- bers of Parliament throughout Australia to at- chise; we find that in Victoria end Tasmania tend to tile needs of the people. -the two States to which I have referred- The Premier: Hear, hear! a certain privileged type or category of people are entitled to the vote. Mr. HEGNEY: The Premier will not say 'W[ear, hear!" in a minute. The re- Some time previously I made reference po rt eon tinues- in this Chamber to my regret at some of the Mr. McLarty said that under the plan con- members on the Grovernmnent bench and siderably more repres~entation would be given some to the large cities of Australia at a time when public men referring to Canberra as it was generally admitted that the large if it were some foreign country. I made accumulation of population in our great cities an interjection tonight when a member of wvas not in the best interests of Australia. He the Ministry mentioned the name Canberra did not think it was just in a country of such in what I thought were disparaging terms. 'Lvidc areas as Australia that the distribution I said it was the Australian capital. I speak of seats should be on a population basis only. as an Australian, and I say it is a sorry So said the Premier of Western Australia! day for this country when members of this Mr. Chairman, do you think, in your serious Chamber, as well as public men and young moments, that the Premicr is consistent men and young women refer to Canberra in view of the Bill that was introduced as some foreign institute. Do we find Britain in the first session of this Parliament? I referring to London as a foreign country? refer to the Redistribution of Seats Bill, Do the Ame~can people 9eferto their capital which was introduced by the Government. as if it were some foreign country? Wle find The 'Minister for the North-West, who was that the Commonwealth Constitution made !also the Premier, sat in his sent and said provision for the establishment of a nothing about the Bill, notwithstanding national capital, which was to be situated at that he -was a maember of the Government least 200 miles from Sydney. In due course which introduced it. That Bill had for its that national capital was established. Yet purpose the reduction of seats in isolated -we find political capital being made out of country areas of the State and the increase the fact that this State is being governed of seats in the metropolitan area. [27 JULY, 1948.3 6Ti

It is quite all right to make reference every o pportunity to 'point out to the to some other part of Australia, but when people of this State that democratic Gov- the Premier makes a statement which is ernment, as we understand it, is non-exist- entirely inconsistent, it will be seen that ent, and I shall do everything I possibly he, as Leader of the Government, is trying can to hasten the time when there will be to mislead the people into believing that adult franchise for hoth Houses, such as the Commonwealth Government is doing there is in our national Parliament today. something to the detriment of the outlying States. Yet his Government has done something detrimental to the outlying por- THE PREMIER (l1on. D. R. MeLarty- tions of this State. For the information Murray-Wellington-in reply) [11.28): 1 of those who may not know, Canberra is shall reply to a few of the points that have thousands of miles away from Perth, yet been made by the Leader of the Opposition it is physically possible to get from Perth and his Deputy relating to the finaencial posi- to Canberra in six or seven hours. It is tion. There has been some discussion in also physically possible to get from Perth other directions, to which 'I do not intend to to Wyndham on the same day. The point reply at this stage. The points raised will be is that Wyndham, which is in Western Aus- replied to by the Ministers concerned in the tralia, is just as far from the seat of this near future. I wish to tell the member for Government as Perth is from Canberra. Forrest that the Minister for Forests will give attention to the suggestion he has made The Premier's statement in regard to in regard to the use of secondhand fruit the Commonwvealth Parliament is entirely cases and will let him knowv what conclusions- illogical and, to my way of thinking, un- are arrived at. I wish also to point out founded. Some few years ago I1 said in to the member for North-Enst Fremantle this House that if our State Constitution that the Government does nof direct the and the Constitution of the other States State Transport Board as to the way in I have mentioned are to be modelled on which its funds shall be used; but the the same conservative lines, the people will Treasurer did provide portion of the eventually realise that they are not gov- cost, or subsidy, for perishables that have erned by a democratic institution. This been sent to the northern parts of this State. Parliament-and I include both Houses- The rising costs that are facing the Govern- is supposed to be an entirely democratic ment today are a matter of very great con- institution. This section of the Parliament cern to Ministers. After discussing the is; but the Legislative Council is ultra- question of finance with other State Prem- conservative. We have no redress if the iers, I feel that -rising costs are giving con- Council decides to reject any legislation cern to every Administration in Australia- initiated by this Chamber. Yet, in the Mother of Parliaments, if the House of Hon. A. H. Pauton: And to housewives as Commons passes a Bill a certain number of well. times within a certain period, notwithstand- ing that the House of Lords; defeats itI the The PREMIER: If the Leader Of the Bill automatically brecomes law. No such Opposition Just had a look at some of the provision is as yet embodied in our Con- tremendous increased costs apparent in the stitution, and we are supposed to be demo- Fede al sphere, he would certainly have cratic! reason for pessimism, because in ,just about every department rising costs have run into I reiterate what It said about the polsi- millions and those costs are still rising with, tion which has arisen in Victoria, although from what I can see, very little effort being I notice that some of the mnembers of the made to curb them. - In any ease I am Government aire laughing. They may laugh hecause a Labour Government was defeated. alarmned at the rising charges with which the Government is faced and I think it is The Labour Glovernment in Tasmania may hbp defeated, but that is; merely a passing a problem that has to be tackled soon. The task will. have to be undertaken on a Corn- phase. Governments come and go, whether snonweaith-State basis. Lahour or Liberal. My final point is that while such a position can arise as arose Certainly it will beL necessary for the Com- in Tasyfiania and Victoria, and to a certain monwealth and the States to get together in extent in Soutb Australia, I shall take this matter and evolve some scheme whereby IS8 [ASSEMBLY.]

a halt can be called to present-day rising the Prime Minister's estimate was very wide costs. If this is not done, I can see diffi- of the mark. It cannot be contended that culties ahead. We all know what has hap- we, as a State, have any control over that pened in other countries as a result of the situation. There has beeun a continuous in- inflationary spiral, which brings misery to crease in the basic wage to meet rising eostN. those concerned. Knowing that, I do not We must appreciate that a large quantity need tot be told of the dangers we are facing of materials required here has to be im- and the need to curtail the increase in prices. ported from the Eastern States, and there I am prepared, and the Government is pre- again rising costs have to be met, in con- pared, to do everything possible to meet the nection with which we have no say what- situation and to halt the trend, if possible. ever. But the Leader of the Opposition knows, Hon. J. B. Sleeman: I thought the and so does every member of the House, Honorary Minister was going to fix that uil. that the State Government cannot do very much by way of controlling the inflationary The PREMIER: She has done very good tendency. work indeed in that direction. Hon. A. H. Panton: Be careful! lion. J. B. Sleeman: You are telling me! The PREMIER: I am always careful, If M1r. Marshall: AllI slit did wats get a lot we look ait the State finances, it will be noted of publicity. that we have adopted the 40-hour week. lon. ,J. 13. Siceman: The honmorary Hon. J1. B. Sleeman: You adopted the .Minister has done nothing at all! 40-hour week! I like that! The PREMIER: While I know the Liaavle The PREMIER: The Federal Arbitration of the Opposition probaly felt that as hie Court gave consideration to the question of would be. leaving the State within a few shortening the working week and has agreed wveeks, he wanted to say something about that 4l0-hours are sufficent. That reduction the financial position generally, I t hink his in hour, will cost this State probably be- speech would have been more appropriate tween £500,000 and £600,000. on the Budget than on the question of Sup- Hon. F. J1. S. Wise: But you allowed ply; but nevertheless I make no complaint £300,000i in your Estimates last year for in that regard. The hion. member has taken that. this opportunity to express his views with regard to the financial position. I confess The IPREMIER: That is so. was somewhat disappointed at the speech. lion. . 13 . Sleeman: The first thing you Hon. A. HT. Parton: It was too short. did when you took offive was to try to heat the 40-hour week. The PREMIER: I looked forward to The PREMIER: We told the Arbitration hearing the lion, member with considerable Court what effect it would have on the interest because I wanted to learn from him, general cwvonomy of this State, and that was seeing that he had accused the Government our dity. We knew that if the Federal of extravagancet-, Court then decided to award a 40-hour week, Hon. F. J. S. Wise: Very definitely. we, as a floverament, bad nothing to do The PREMIER: - in just what direction but abide by that decision. those extravagances were taking place. ion. F. J1. S. Wise: And you put a large Hon. F. J. S. Wise: 1 will tell you. ,m an the Estimates to cover that jiosition. The PREMIER: I asked the Leader --f The PREMIER: But the Prime Minister, the Opposition about it and his reply wais when commenting on the 40-hour week-I that it was not his duty to point out thvs', do not think he was particularly keen about matters but that it was the duty of the it himself, especially when the Premier of Tretaury. I can assure him that the Trea- New South Wales introduced that systemn surer is taking action and before very Ion.- flst-pstimated what the cost would be. Hion. F. J. S. Wise: Tell us about it. Talking, to me, when he w-as on a visit to Wectern Australia, he Raid that it would The PREMIER: There is a proper time mean ain increase of from 12 to 15i per cent. for that. on all-round costs. As a matter of fact, Hon. F. 3. S. Wise: No. Now is the time. rr~ [27 Jiry, 194S.]

The PRE MIER : The proper time to do so could have saved on Royal Commissions. I is when I deliver the Budget Speech. I am think those Royal Commissions will prove aware that the hon. member will he away to have been justified. But evea had we at the time, but I do not suggest he should effected a saving by not having any Royal cancel his trip to London. His colleagues Commissions, it would have made extremely will tell him all about it. little difference to the finances of this coun- non. FR J. S. 'Wise: You do not want to try. I want to say a word or two about be too patronising about that, anyway. these Royal Commissions. The Housing& Comumission was appointed at the direction The PRE-MIER:- The problem is receiv- of this House. So there cannot be any ing my most careful consideration and I criticism of that. When we come to the am fully alive to the situation. Railway Commission, I find that in 1946 the Hon. F. J. S. Wise: W'ell, do not be so Leader of the Opposition, who was then patronising. Premiier, said, in speaking to a motion luovad by my colleague, the present M1inis- The PREMIER: I am not patronising at ter for Railways,-and his remarks are to all! The hon. member should not worry be f:aund at page 2959 of "Hansard" of the about that. 13th December, 1946- Hon. F. J. S. Wise: I am prepared to I bare indicated. to the House during the be here. Course of debate-ant members hare had the informaqtion under the authority of the Mfinister The PREMIER: The hon. member should for Railways, too-that it is the intention of not worry his head about that. I did not the Government to appoint a Royal Comnmis- mean to give offence to him. He should sioner, who will he a. highly placed and respon- sible person, yet unknown, but one with all the not be so touchy!I qualifications necessary. Hon. F. J. S. Wise: I suggest that you So the hon. gentleman would have had a. keep your temper. Royal Commission in regard to railways. The PREMIER: I am not losing my There was another Royal Commission ap- temper. pointed to inquire into local government Hon. F. J .9. Wise: 'We will see about boundaries and that was asked for by nmuni- that presently. eipal councils. I believe that if the hon. gentleman had been over here he would have Thle PREMIER: To give an indication of atgreed to that Royal Commission. A Royal what is happening, I would draw the atten- Commission on betting was promised in our tion of the Committee to a report that was Policy speech and that promise was, laid on thb8 Table of the House tonight. I hor~oured. refer to the report of the State Government Railway;, Tramways and Ferries Depart- Hon. J. B. Sleeman: You did not give them an inquiry on hetting. ment for the quarter ended the 31st March, 1948, and I ask the Leader of the Opposition The PREMIER: Yes. We gave what we to listen to this extract- suggested. Earnings show increases of £ 94,100 for the Hon. J. B. Sleeman: The main thing, was quarter and £E491,200 for the nine months as outside the terms of reference. compared writh last year, but the improvement is overshadowed by the effects of the 40-boatr The PREMIER: We gave them what we week, basic wage rises and increased payments said we would give them. under industrial awards, which are reflected in the heavy rise in working expenses. REon. .1. B. Sleeman:- I hope you get what you expect!1 If any member can tell me where the Gov- ernment's responsibility rests with regard to The PREMIER: The Workers' Compen- these increased charges I shall be very glad sation Royal Commission was recom- to have the information. The Deputy mended by a Select Committee years Leader of the Opposition talked about Gov- ag-o-at committee of which the Deputy ernment extravagance and said something Lcadcr of the Opposition was chair- about the appointment of Royal Commis- man. Then, of course, there was a Royal sions. In criticising expenditure that he Commission on milk, and I think that wasi estimated would amount to £20,000,000, he justified. So that is the story of the Royal talked about the money the Government Commissions. Whilst I claim that they were [ASSEMBLY.]

fully justified, the amount of saving that that we would govern as -well as we could could have been effected in a Budget of from and handle the finances as well as we -could. £C18,000,000 to £20,000,000 by their not being The Leader of the Opposition also referred appointed would have been infinitesimal. But to the use of trust funds and this he seemed that is one of the savings that have been to be very perturbed about. But for many suggested-as a matter of fact the only one. years this has been regarded as part of The Leader of the Opposition said I had Gtovernment finance and I sin sure the mnade a statement that I was willing honourable gentleman must know that all to assume conitrol of our own finances and Governments, or nearly all Governments- get away from the Commonwealth. I I want to he sale-have used these trust have never,- said that. Yes, the 'Leader f unds. I know one Labour Government of the Op position ('an quote the Policy that used them all, because I remember that spIneh or anything else if he likes; but I when I first came to this House the then know what I said, and I will stick to it. Premier complaned bitterly of the way in lion. F. J. 9. Wi-se: I repeated the words which the trust funds had been disposed of at' the Policy Speech. by the outgoing Government. The PREMIER: I have said this: That Hon. A. H. Panton: He found them that I would not agrTee to having our taxation way, too. powers returned to us. unless the field of The PREMIER: But they would be re- taxatioin were clearly defined between the imbursed. They are reimbursed from Loan Commonwealth and the State; andi further- fund and Revenue generally. Another matter more, like the hon. gentleman himself, I to which the Leader of the Opposition have advocated that a conventionh should be referred was this: He said that we on this held in regard to the Commonwealth-State side of the House, or this party to which financial set-up. But when the Premiers of I belong, created great deficits and seemed Victoria and South Australia were over to lack any knowledge of finance. *here at the time I invited all Premiers to Hon. F. J. 5. Wise: I did not say that. attend a conference in this State- The PREMIER: The Deputy Leader of Mr. Hoar: They were Liberal Party the Opposition said so. The Leader of the Premiers. Opposition referred to the deficits that were The PREMIER: I cannot help that. The created by this party. It should not be others were invited. I could not do any necessary to remind the Leader of the more than that. At that Premiers' Confer- Opposition that Governments of the same ence a formula was laid down by which party as myself in the past carried out we were to get the same amount per head great developmental works in this county of income tax as Queensland raised in the Hon. F 3. S. Wise:- So did ours. last pre-war year, adjusted and increased to conform to the higher national income to The PREMIER: Which we knew at the be distributed according to the existing time were undertaken under a far-seeing formula between the States and to operate policy that we were aware could not pro- until a properly constituted eonvention has duce immediate results. The leader of the been held to detc'rmine future Common- Opposition knows that. The party was in That power at a period of great expansion and wealth-State financial relationships. today the State is reaping the benefit of was agreed to by M.Nr. Playford and Mr. Hollway. I want to tell the Leader of the that policy. Opposition also that the Grants Commission Hon. A. H. Panton: They bad a ton of did not exact any asniranccs from us when money-cheap money at that. they gave us the million pounds. But we The PREMIER: That is so; and they realised that we bad to do something in used it. I wish we could get sonic of it regard to increased charges and, as I have today. The Leader of the Opposition. went said, that is receiving the attention of the on to say that had he been at the last Government at present. We were not asked Premiers' Conference he would have sug- to give any assnrance, That is so, I think. gested that the £40,000,000 which the States I have not heard of any assurance that we obtained through the Income Tax Reim- were asked to give. We were given the buirsement Act should be increased to amount by the Commission, who expected £50,000,000. I can assure him that we made [27 JULY, 194$.] 717 every possible effort. In fact, the Premiers 1947.48. Hospitals will need an increase did not ask that it be increased by of £50,000, and State ships wilt need £10,000,000, but that it be increased by £100,000 more than the previous year. So £20,000,000 to £25,000,000. 1 said to Air. I could go on, but which hon. gentleman McGirr, "You do not expect we will suc- in this Chamber is going to suggest to me ceed, do you?" He replied, "Why not?" that that expenditure should not have been We did not succeed, hut we did get it raised incurred?7 Or could any member Possibly from £40,000,000 to £45,000,000. suggest that it should not have been in- Thle Leader of the Opposition referred to eurredl? -Members might mention increased unproductive public works. Well, this is a char,mes They will get their opportunity problem which has, of course, confronted later in regard to increased charges, and it every Government, and it is one to which will be most interesting to find just what this Government has given. very close at- their attitude will he when these proposals tention. I have discussed it repeatedly with come before them. the Treasury officials. In a young country Hon. A. H. Panton: We knew what it was lik this, it is extremely difficult to get onl 0 when a railway officer inadvertently said with a public works progralnme without something about it to the Grants Commiis- taking some risks. I do not care what'Gov- sion. The maember for Nedlands; nearly ermnent occupies this bench in. the future, knocked the House down. it will find it extremely hard to get a public works programme that is wholly reproduct- Thie PREMIER: I did not just know what ive, It will also find it extremely hard to would happen on the Supply Bill, and the get away from losses. We are compelled Treasurer wants to come fully armed, as to expand and develop in this young coun- he floes when presenting the Budget, when try. he knowvs the whole matter is going to be It is unfortunate that we have to carry debated, so, during the tea interval, I did out such a policy when we have these greatly have) a look- at some of the figures related increased costs. But the long view has to to the matters raised by the Leader of the be taken and we have to continue with that Opposition. In 1045, dealing with railways, development. By way of interjection, I told the surplus earvings over working expenses the Leader of the Opposition, prior to the were £.511,060. In 1040 the surplus was tea suspension that the Westland coaches £80,012, a drop of £431,000. In 1947, the were built from Loan moneys. He was cor- deficiency was £E317,866, a further drop of rect; they were built from Revenue. Rather, £E457,000. These figures do not take into four of the coaches were built from revenue account interest. and two were debited to an insurance fund which the Railway Department has. I under- I have indicated to members; from the stand that as a result of the loss of sonic exti-act I read from the report which is on trucks or other rollingstock belonging to the the Table and available to them, just how department it got the insurance, which I the railways are proceeding -at present. But believe it carries itself, and] was able to pro- I suiggest this to the Leader of the Opposi- vide the two coaches with it. tion: that he did not do very much about The Minister for Lands: Who authorised it. He was making these tremendous losses and ho was content to go the building of the Westland, anyway? on the railways, on. Well, I am not content to go on. A The PREMIR : It was authorised by the ino;t searching inquiry is being made into Government, of which the Leader of the railway workings and railway losses. We Opposition was Premier. I could go on shall sea if we cannot get greater efficiency talking about costs and keep members here in regard to workings, amid, members might for quite a long time, hut I will give that just as well know this, we have got to get information on the Budget. I have already extra revenue. I have here the general posi- given some. The reclassification of tho tion of the railways, which I will go into teachers will cost us £200,000. Increases to later. It is many years since there has been the police will cost a considerable amount. ainy increase. You, Mir. Chairman, were a Tbe basic wage will be £100,000 more for very young boy when there was any sub- the coming financial year compared with stantial increase made in railway freights. 72 72[ASSEMBLY]

Since that time we have had two World Hon. F. J. S. WISE:- If that is so, I wars, numerous increases in the basic wage, wish to analyse the flimsy statement of the superannuation funds, long-service leave, the Premier in attempting to assert that there 40-hour week, increased cost of materials, was nothing in my suggestions that might and goodness knows what else, and we have be of assistance to him. I analysed the lust gone on. That difficult position is left position fronm the information available to for this Government to face. I can only me, a brief Press statement-a brief Press may that we hope to face it. I do not think release by the Premier regarding his fi- there is any need for me to say anything nanees at the end of the financial year. I further tonight, but oince again to assure had no other information available on the Leader of the Opposition that Govern- which to base my comments. I did not ment expenditure is being closely serutin- intend to traverse any ground previously ised. 1 think it was the Deputy Leader of covered, but did suggest to the Premier, the Opposition who said that we should con- for example, thait he was not watching tMut our Treasury advisers. That is being railway finances, and that trains were being dlone. I can assure him that I am looking built out of revenue, which he denied. for the most expert advice it is possible The Premier: And then corrected. to obtain. I hoped that the Leader of the Opposition would tonight have been more Hon. F. J. S. WISE: He af terwards definite in his criticism, because I was look- corrected it. I suggest that he should not ing forward to a constructive speech fronm be testy and contend that he expects from the angle of suggestions in regard to de- me specific items based on the flimsy in- creased expenditure and the avenues where formation that be has given to the Cham- he considers Loan moneys and Revenue gen- ber this evening, and that which has been erally could be profitably spent. I would be published in the Press. If be will wake glad indeed if an opportunity arose during available to me the details of all the de- partnments the next few weeks- side by side with his estimated figures, and afford the opportunity, we will Mr. Hoar: You want him to do your job. give him an idea of where the drift may The PREMIER: Nothing of the sort. I he. Surely he will concede that in my at- hope the member for Nelson is not going to tempt fairly and reasonably to analyse the develop into one of those members of Par- drift anti deterioration in finance-those are not my words, but those ]iament who thinks there is no responsibility of "The West resting on an Opposition member simply Australian '- was not concerned with increasing expenditure, if revenue kept because he is in Opposition. There is a re'#ponsibility resting on every member of pace with it. fn the early stages of my speech I said I amn not concerned if he this Chamber in regard to every matter of can show that he is carefully serutinising public concern, whether it be finance or the opportunities and resources at his com- anything else, and it is much better to have mand in an attempt to keep them measur- -onsltruetive suggestions than mere carping ably together. criticism. lion. A. H. Panton: You gave a bit of I cannot let him thrust aside my comments it when you -were over here. on Loan expenditure. I did not cavil at Loan expenditure for prodnctive or repro- The Minister for Education: We used to ductive purposes, and he well knows it. do our best. The point is that there is an obligation, The PREMIER: That is all I bare to wherever there is such expenditure to the say on the Bill. benefit of the whole community, that the community and not the taxpayer should pay for it. Those are the avenues that I HON. F. J. a. WISE (Gascoyne): sug;gest the Premier should examine. He I am conscious that there will still be many turned my suggestion aside by asking what opportunities of speaking on this Bill. I I did about it. The only years in which am not sure whether the Premier intended I had the responsibility of the Treasury to suggest, in his lost remarks, that he had were one year when I was acting for the had carping criticism froma me. Eon. J1. C. Willeock, and when I bad a sym- The Premier: I did not. metricci if not substantial surplus of £11,000, [27 JULY, 1948].) 73 and one other year when the Budget was urer had an opportunity of determining the balanced. That is the answer. There was size of his Buidget? not the drift that is obvious today, or the The PREMIR: As I will be leaving for need to do the things which the Premier the Premiers' Conference sometime in the should do in good grace in straightening middle of August I will not be able to give oat the finances of Western Australia. I full consideration to the Budget position said I would be prepared at all times to until I return. This present Supply should collaborate and co-operate, and fairly give last for about three months, but I am hoping credit where it is due. I expect the Pre- to introduce the Budget at about the same mnier not to set aside, in cavalier manner, stage us I introduced it last year. substantial suggestions by simply asking Ron. J1. S. Wise: where are the ways in which we can help F. That was in October. him. If he lets us have the figures we -will The PRE"MIER: Yes, about that time. tell him all of the story. Hon. F. J. S. Wise: That is very late. Question put and passed. The PREMIER: Yes, but I wtU try Jo, Resolution reported and the report introduce it earlier, but I would not like to adopted. give the Leader of the Opposition an assur- ance and then not be able to carry it out. ])a Committee of Ways and Means. At this stage it is very difficult even to quote The House resolved into Committee of an approximate figure but last year the ex- Ways and Means, M1r. Perkins in the Chair. penditure amounted to £18,000,000 whereas The PREMIER: I move- the estimated expenditure was £16,400,000. That towards waking good the Supply The lion, member is right wheni he says it granted to His Majesty for the services of the will probably be more this year and I think year ending the 30th June, 1049, a sumn not it will not he any less although we will have exceeding £3,000,000 be granted from the Con- solidated Revenue Fund, £-500,000 from the increased revenue. Just what added costs General Loan Fund and £300,000 from the Pub- will have to be met I do not know. I there- lic Accounts. # fore cannot give the Leader of the Opposi- Question put and passed. tion any more information at this stage. Resolutions reported and the report Clause pnt and passed. adopted. Clause 2-agreed to.

Bill Ditrodueed. Preamble: In accordance with the foregoing resolu- Hon. J. B. SLEEMAN: I am not too tions, Bill introduced and read a first time. pleased with the preamble and I do not know whether it should be passed in this Second Reading. formn. In the fourth line there occurs the word "Cheerfully." My reason for not THE PREMIIER (Hon. D. R. MeLarty- agreeing to Supply very cheerfully is that Murray-Wellington) [12.81]: I move- I am not prepared to grant anything cheer- That the Bill be now read a second time. fully to a Government that has broken nearly every promise it made to the electors Question put and passed. when elected. If it was to rant supply to His M~ajesty himself and His Majesty was In Committee. going to administer it, it would be all right, M1r. Perkins in the Chair; the Premier in hut not to His Majesty's chief officers who in charge of the Bill. are going to handle this money and are sup- Clause i-Issue and application of posed to have the business acumen to run a. £3,800,000: counrtry. When the Olovernment was elected Hon. F. J1. S. WISE: Will the Treasurer it promised that there would be plenty of give to this Committee any indication of materials and plenty of houses, but there how long he expects this Supply to last,' and are no more houses now than there were be- at what stage prior to the introduction of fore the election. the Appropriation Bill will he introduce his The Minister for Lands: We say that Supply Bill (No. 2)'9 Also, has the Tress- there are. 74 [COUNCIL]

Hon. J. B. SLEEMAN: If the Minister cheerfully be given 3s. let alone £3,000,000 for Lands wants to say there are more I will and I move an amendment-- tell him all about it next week. I have the That at the end of line 4 the word ''cheer- figures and I say definitely there are no more fully'' be struck out. houses now than there were then. Amendment put and negatived. The Minister for Lands: But we say that Preamble put and passed: there are. Title-agreed to. Hon. J. B. SLEEMAN: And that is one of the reasons why I am not too cheerful Bill reported without amendment, and the about granting this Supply, because the Gov- ernment has broken every promise it has% report adopted. made. At election time the Government said Third Reading. that there were no hospitals hut with the Read a third time and tranasmitted to the exception of the Royal Perth Hospital- most of the planning of which was carried Council. out by the previous Governments-the hos- House pital position is worse now than it was when adjourned at 12.21 a.7% (Wednesday) . the Governmniit was elected. Even the mem- ber for Wag-in on the opening day corn- plained of the state of affairs in the hos- pitals in his district. The Government also complained about the costs under a Labour Government, but we now have the spectacle of the Premier this evening complaining 2pi0Iatibt Cn1unicil. about (he cost of living and a few moments ago he turned to his colleagues and said that Wednesday, 28th July, 1948. more money must be obtained from the railways. I would like to know what CONTENTS. Page the Country and Democratic League think Questions: Communist activities, as to about that and what they Ire going to say ensuring State's security 74 when extra charges are made on the rail- Pastoral Industry, as to re-appraisement of leases ...... 76 ways. I have been a member of this Parlia- Bill : Supply (No. 1), 0l,800,000, Standing ment for approximately 24 years and I Orders suspension, all stages .. .. 76 think the most hypocritical thing I have ever Address-In-reply, second day .. .. 82 known a Government to do was the promised amendment of the Legislative Council fran- chise. To save its face it brought down The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30 a Bill-not a bad little Bill either-but it p.m., and read prayers. objected to this side bringing down a Bill because it said that wvas the function of the QUESTIONS. Government. COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES. The CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. mem- ber is getting rather far from the preamble As to Ensuring State's Security. of the Bill. Hon. H. HEARN asked the Chief Secre- Hon. J. B, SLEEMAN: I am giving my tary: reasons for not ranting Supply cheerfully. In view of the recent disclosures of the The Government said it was going to amend subversive activities of Communists in the franchise of the Legislative Council and Britain, Canada, U.S.A., South Africa, when the Deputy Leader of the Labour South America, Malaya, Indonesia, Italy, Party introduced a Bill to amend the fran- France, Germany and other countries, and chise the Government turned it down. Then in view of the continuous industrial unrest the Government brought down a Bill and caused by the disruptive tactics of Com- passed the word] to its mates in another place munists in Australia, is the Government to turn the Bill down, and then it asks us to satisfied that the measures taken to ensure grant Supply cheerfully. I say it should not the security of this State are adequate and