Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of

STANDING COMMITTEE

on

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS

40 Elizabeth II

Chairman Mrs. Louise Dacquay Constituencyof Seine River

VOL XL No.3 ·10 a.m., THURSDAY, JULY 18, 1991

MG-8048 ISSN 0713-956X Printedby the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-FifthLegislature

LIB -liberal; NO - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK, Reg Osborne LIB ASHTON, Steve Thompson NO BARRETT, Becky Wellington NO CARR, James Crescentwood LIB CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights LIB CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NO CHEEMA, Guizar The Maples LIB CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NO CONNERY, Edward Portage Ia Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NO DOER, Gary Concordia NO DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry,Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James LIB ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Clif Interlake NO EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NO FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NO GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface LIB GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NO HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NO LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster LIB LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NO LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NO MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NO McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NO PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NO REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob TurtleMountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NO STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Ain Flon NO SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary FortGarry PC WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NO WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NO 92

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS

Thursday, July 18, 1991

TIME-10a.m. the conclusion ofBill 35 and then proceeding to Bill LOCATION-, Manitoba 68. Bill 59 is being heard in the room adjacent, Room 254. CHAIRMAN - Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River) "(1005)

ATIENDANCE- 8- QUORUM- 6 When thiscommittee sat last night, it was agreed that we would hear from the Manitoba Naturalists Members of the Committee present: Society. The Clerk has informed me that they were Hon. Mr. Ernst contacted this morning and they will not be Mr. Carr, Mrs. Dacquay, Ms. Friesen, Messrs. appearing. Additionally, Mr. Dave Brown, whose Maloway, McAlpine, Rose, Mrs. Vodrey name was called but did not appear last night, also APPEARING: advised theClerk that he will not be appearing. Gerald Ducharme, MLA for Riel It is my understanding that it is the will of the committee that we now proceed to hear public WITNESSES: representations on Bill 68 and therefore all public Lillian Thomas, Councillor, Elmwood Ward, representation on Bill 35 has been concluded. Is City of Winnipeg that the will ofthe committee? Theresa Ducharme, PEP (People in Equal Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Participation) Madam Chairman: Agreed and so ordered. Paul Moist, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local 500 I will proceed at this point to identify all 32 individuals who have indicated they wish to speak Greg Mandzuk, Canadian Union of Public to Bill 68, and then I will proceed throughthe list and Employees, Local 500 call the individuals one by one. Those who are Brett Lockhart, Private Citizen present as their names appear, I would request that David Waytowich, Private Citizen they please come forward. CharlotteHozumi, Private Citizen Number one, Mr. George Marshall, Private PatrickDaly, Private Citizen Citizen; No. 2, a spokesperson to be named for Winnipeg In the Nineties; No. 3, Mr. Ken Guilford, R. M. Goodman, Private Citizen Private Citizen; No. 4, Councillor Lillian Thomas, Deborah Smith, Choices ElmwoodWard for the City of Winnipeg; No. 5, Ms. Julia Boon, Private Citizen Theresa Ducharme, People in Equal Participation; No. 6, Councillor Roger Young, Pembina-Riverview George Marshall, Private Citizen Ward, City of Winnipeg; No. 7, Councillor George MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Fraser, Private Citizen; No. 8, Councillor Terry Bill 68, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act Duguid, Miles MacDonell Ward for the City of (2) Winnipeg; No. 9, Councillor Peter Diamant, Bill 35, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act University Ward, City of Winnipeg; No. 1 0, Mr. Paul Moist, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local *** 500; No. 11 , Ms. Shirley Lord, Private Citizen; No. 12, Councillor , River-Osborne Ward, Madam Chairman: Will the committee on City of Winnipeg; No. 13, Mr. Larry Crane, Private Municipal Affairs please come to order to consider Citizen; No. 14, Mr. George Lapp, Private Citizen; Bill 68. I would just like to remind all the presenters No. 15, Mr. BrettLockhart, Private Citizen; No. 16, that in this room this morning we are dealing with Mr.John Mandryk, Private Citizen;No. 17, Mr. David 93 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

Waytowich, Private Citizen; No. 18, Mr. Robin Hall, residents of my ward areexpecting me to lookafter Private Citizen; No. 19, Mrs. Charlotte Hozumi, the affairs of the city. This high-handed behaviour Private Citizen; No. 20, Mr. Patrick Daly, Private interferes with my ability to be an effective Citizen; No. 21, Mr. Gary Coopland, Private Citizen; representative. No. 22, A.M. Goodman, Private Citizen; No. 23, Mr. City Council does things differently. When we Grant Nordman, Private Citizen; No. 24, Mr. John want the public's opinion on an issue, the issue is Harrison, Private Citizen; No. 25, Ms. Deborah put on an agenda of community committees, Smith, representing CHOICES; No. 26, Mrs. Julia standing committee,EPC or council. If an individual Boon, Private Citizen; No. 27, Mr. David Brown, cannot appear, many times we have laid over Private Citizen; No. 28, Mr. Mike O'Shaughnessy, consideration of a matter to allow the person an Private Citizen; No. 29, Mr. Gordon Mackie, Private opportunity to participate. I object to the method Citizen; No. 30, Mr. Bernie Wolfe, Private Citizen; used by the Legislature. Instead of tinkering with No. 31 , Mr. G. Hewitt, St. Boniface-St. Vital how other levels ofgovernment handletheir affairs, Residents Advisory; No. 32, Dr. Jim Shapiro, St. why do you notlook at yourself and decide how you Germain Residents Association. can be more effective, more democratic and more Additionally, I would just like to suggest that if responsive to thecitizens of your constituency, and there is anyone present this morning whose name let us get back to our own business. has not been called, ifthey would raise their hand, identify themselves to our Clerk, your name will be Second point-timing. The Legislature has addedto the bottomof our Jist. decidedto consider this pieceof tripeat a time when you are overhauling the city's major planning *(1010) document through Bill 35. Also, at the sametime as We will nowproceed and I will call the individuals. you have demanded that we do a major review of As I revert to the names, please step forward. Mr. Plan Winnipeg, youare ramming this through when George Marshall, Private Citizen; a spokesperson we are up to our eyeballs trying desperately to for Winnipeg In theNineties; No. 3, Mr. Ken Guilford, respond to your demands, but have you waited for Private Citizen; No. 4, Councillor Lillian Thomas, our response? You have not. If we had not had a Elmwood Ward, City of Winnipeg. Good morning, special meeting of council Wednesday morning, Councillor Thomas. Do you have a written yesterday, you would have unilaterally proceeded presentationfor members of the committee? withoutour input. h is difficultnot to impute motives nor to take this matter personally. Ms. Ulllan Thomas(Councillor, Elmwood Ward, CHy of Winnipeg): I have a presentation that I I have this overwhelming feeling that the former wrote downlast night. I do nothave a political staff city councillors who have either chosen to move to that types up my presentations, so I have to go by the Legislature or were pushed out are miffed, the notes that I made myseH. So I will be reading miffedbecause theycannot continue to run City Hall from my notes. fromthe Legislature. I know that the Legislature has Madam Chairman: That is fine. Thank you very enough of its own problems. Why are you much. Please proceed, Councillor Thomas. interfering with the city's composition and structure when an overwhelming majority of the citizens, Ms.Thomas: I have comehere to speak to Blll 68, appearing both before the ward review you struck which I strongly object to. I look outside and I see it and the commission we struck, said they wanted pouring rain, thundering. When I got up this council to remain the same size as it is now. morning, they said that the weather could be considered ominous, Iand hope the committee will .. (1015) consider moving in this direction to be definitely a Furtherto the manner on timing, I am a member bad omen for democracy. of the Protection, Parks and Culture Committee. Thefirst point I would like to make is on method. The Hughes Inquiry raised heavily on me at this I object to the methodof the hearing schedule. I did time. The streets, sidewalks and sewers of my ward not know when this hearing would convene. I had need attention, and this is construction season. no notice. I was told to sit by my phone and wait for The residents of my ward want me to come and see a call that would inform me when I was required at what their problems are, and you want me to sit by the Legislature. I have other business. The my phone and wait for a call? July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 94

Third issue is to content. It is proposed to reduce corporate model of civic government that is being the number of councillors from 29 to 15. Right now portrayed south of us in the U.S.A. They have lost I serve on 15 committees, subcommittees, ad hoc contact with their electorate and are reeling under committees, boards and commissions and you are large debt that they have backed themselves into by proposing, if you divide the number of councillors in pursuing grandiose schemes and not listening to half, that I sit on 30. Right now I average 50 to 60 their public. Some cities have even declared hours a week on city business. Do you propose that bankruptcy. let us not imitate failure. I work 100 or 120 hours a week or perhaps you will let us listen to the will of the people. They have give me an administrative staff? Where the cost spoken at two commissions and have saving is on that solution, I cannot fathom. overwhelmingly rejected the plotto cut City Council People want to talk to me, not some aide because and to reduce their input into the democratic they cannot get to me because I am too busy. It is process. Within the province of Manitoba as it very hard not to impute motives or to take this stands today, 60 percent of the populationlive within personally. With wards doubled in size, the cost of the city of Winnipeg and are represented by 29 city campaigns would skyrocket. Who would be able to councillors and a mayor. Forty percent of the afford this? Who would benefit from this? In civic population within Manitoba, outside the city of campaigns, income tax receipts are not issued to Winnipeg, are served by over 1 ,200 municipal working people, but now that corporations can politicians. I will not advocate that municipalities contribute, the balance has been tilted towards the outside Winnipeg feel the heavy hand of this pro-development agenda which this provincial government on their throat, but how can 29 be too government has been attempting to implement many? since it got elected. This city is in the unique position of having two Can corporations deduct their contributions to more MLAs than there are city councillors serving civic campaigns as a business expense? I know the exact same area of the city of Winnipeg. This is individuals cannot. Low-income populations are the onlycentre in Manitoba where thisoccurs. I am not adequately represented now as it is. Can they not advocating that the provincial legislature run for office and present their point of view? Not membership be reduced so it is exceeded by easily. I ran a bare-bones campaign. It cost me municipal representation, but if there is tinkering to $3,000. If my ward were doubled in size, it would be done, tinker up, not down. cost me at least double for the literature and I have a great concern for how this reduced advertising alone. I could not manage with a totally council will be implemented in ward configuration. volunteer campaign. This would put electioneering The report of the Winnipeg Wards Review beyond the financial capacity of most of the Commission does not consider traditional population of the city of Winnipeg. It stifles input. neighbourhoods, nor can they. Blocks of that large Who does this hurt the most-the public. How? an area must by nature of their size cross major It puts at risk the democratic process. Democracy transportation routes, railways, rivers, streams. is best served by accommodating the broadest Also, the social characteristics and history of the possible spectrum of opinion. When that opinion is area has become muddled. stifled, we can slip into a tyranny by the few. In • (1020) Great Britain, smaller centres have one city councillor per 2,000 population. In larger centres I am disappointed that the Resident Advisory like the city of Winnipeg, there is one city councillor Groups will be eliminated. I have found their per approximately 7,000 population. I already information to be an invaluable resource, and I represent three times that number in Elmwoodat the question why this bodywould wish to cut the ability civic level today, and you are demanding that I of volunteers to participate. However, they have double this. done so before to other citizen boards serving their community on a volunteerbasis, so why should I be Our traditional links with Great Britain and France focus on larger councils with city councillors serving surprised? smaller numbers of residents. This allows their I will reflect on the recent past as to how a representatives to be in close contact with their Resident Advisory Group in St. James dared to constituents. Do not be swayed to follow the speak out against a controversial housing project in 95 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

their area and rallied the support of many other presentation, Councillor Thomas. Firstly,corporate groups throughout the city of Winnipeg to their donations to municipal candidates are not tax cause, through a public meeting and dogged deductible. That matter has been checked with persistence, fought and continued to fight against Revenue Canada, and they have advised that they this travesty. I find it hard not to impute motives or are not tax deductible. to take it personally, since I was one of thosecitizens There is, as well, no mention that I am aware of who spoke out strongly against this project. in the bill with respect to resident advisory groups, Then there is the issue of political contributions. although I understand that your commission, the I would caution this government that this piece of one appointed by City Council, recommended that legislation conflicts with the Charter of Rights and they be done away with. There are no Freedoms. To discriminate against contributionsof recommendations in this bill with regard to anything a political party while allowing contributions from to do with resident advisory groups. The status quo corporations is treading on very thin ice indeed. will remain, as far as they are concerned. The citizens groups which I belong to and represent As well, with respect to political party on councilis considering taking steps in the direction contributions, by motion of City Council, you of becoming a political party. I cannot help but requested us to implement this legislation. question the motives of those who are defeated by our grassrootsmovement or scared off into another Ms. Thomas: That was a well-heated battle. arena, and I ask myself, is this a vendetta to get Mr. Ernst: Nonetheless, council has requested WIN, by cutting off their financial support? This that to be put into place. move canand will be challenged if it becomes law. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Bill 68 also makes I am well aware of this government's attitude some changes In the roleof mayor. I wonderif you toward thosewho beat them in the politicalarena or could comment on that from your experience as a at the bargaining table. I would caution you not to city councillor.-(interjection)- The bill makes some make any further political mistakes. If this move is provisions for the role of mayor to appoint a deputy not related to the rise of WIN, why then is it only mayor, the acting deputy mayor and the being implemented inside and notoutside thecity of chairpersons of thefour standing committees. Do Winnipeg? This Is discrimination. Of that, I am you have any comments on that and the new City sure. Howdare you saythat political parties are not Council of 15? How would that work from your to be a partof civicpolitics. Freedom of association experienceon City Council? is at risk here. This is not a joke, and I am not • (1025) laughing. I am tired. I havemy own workto do, and I resent having to respond like a lab animal on a Ms. Thomas: That is how it works now. The treadmill going faster and faster and getting mayor appoints the deputy mayor and the four nowhere. The degree of political interference by chairs of the standingcommittee. H we are going to be operating like a government, as we should be, thislevel of government is tantamount to a temper and if the mayor is to be the leader of that tantrum. government,I think that this person should have the My final point-cost. What a waste of the authority to appoint their cabinet. taxpayers' money. The citizens neverasked for this MadamChairm an: Hearing no furtherquestions, I and, when they were asked, stated emphatically would like to thank you for your presentation, thatthey never wanted this. In a time of recession, Councillor Thomas. you should be lookingat ways to assist the poor and thedisenfranchised andnot lookingto what you can Our next presenter, No. 5, Ms. Theresa do to stifletheir voice. Ducharme. I believe each of the committee members have received a copyof Ms. Ducharme's Thatis all I haveto say. Are there any questions? presentation. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Councillor Ms. Theresa Ducharme (People In Equal Thomas. I am sure that there will be questions of Participation): I thank God forthis day, because I the committee. never thought that we would exceed the level of Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): I just concerning ourselves with the municipal problem want to clear up a couple of points in your that we have in the lack of reaching or maintaining July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 96

the consideration of any councillor who has a and tab the expenditure, because we are in a volunteer position with a paid pension, paid benefits. recession right now, dear. You cannot reach them whether they are sitting by .. (1030) the phone or not, because their answering service is on. You cannot catch them. You cannot reach Recessions compliment us in trying to reduce our them unless you possibly catch them riding next to weight, reduce our time for family, friends and, most them in their vehicle going someplace on 15 of all, look at the fact that we are not volunteering committees and everything else. I thought I would our services because the councillors have a never, ever, ever see this day where The City of good-paid pension which is confidential, because I Winnipeg Amendment Act would be reviewed and have the information right here. You are not allowed considered with the legislature in office today and to know what their salary is-oh, your salary but not having public hearings. the benefits. You are not to know that two-thirds of Our PEP organization, People in Equal every expenditurethey have is tax deductible. You Participation Incorporated has been aggravated, are not allowed to know that their telephone, their agitated and constipated on the fact that there is no household, everythingis tax deductible so they can movement and no work from the councillors. You rape the government from left, right and centre. heard the word "volunteer." Well, I am here as a I have never seen anythingin such a mess. In all volunteer, but I am also here as a taxpayer and I am of Canada, we are the only small rookie city, the city also here as a "reciprocant" to observe all the of Winnipeg, that has 29 councillors. H it was such people's actions, because I have no other choice but a compliment, if it was such a benefit, why is not to sit and observe the work of all people in everybodyelse following the rookiecity of Winnipeg legislation, in parliament and also in council. in the same fashion and having 55 or 1 05 The word of reduction means to reduce thosewho councillors? Why? Can I ask you that, because have no time, no energy and are spread so thinly, everybodyelse asks questionsof the•reciprocants" but they do not lookthin, darling, because they live or the delegation? Why do we not have 105 high on the hog. I do not want to hurt the animals councillors, you know, so we can divide it? Instead as I would hurt the council in office and in session of just having Elmwood, we could have Elmwood, right now, but I am hoping and praying that the P.C.s Transcona,maybe squeeze a few others. who promised to reduce the number of city I cannot believe that we are here crying for councillors will keep their promise and also something that is notgoing to help all thecommunity rejuvenate, revitalize and reunite all citizens who and understand the fact that The City of Winnipeg wish to communicate with their councillors. Act must be amended. Theone above brought rain At one point, we had 50 councillors, and what did upon us today, and I said I hope the lord will watch that do us? Where did we get to? We had 50 over everybody's conscience today to open their councillors. Nowhere in all of the universe­ hearts and minds to the needs of all the citizens, Canada, United States-nobody has tried 50 becausewe do nothave the money, we do not have councillors-five, zero. If we keep tinkering and the people who are committed as they once were going up, up, up, up, up, we will not be here with age elected. We are not hurting democracy. or our senility, because we are going to be senile That is why we are holding this public meeting, sir after we hear this public hearing, because I am and madam. That is why we are holding a public aggravated to the point that I would like to reach and meeting. Public means everyone is welcome. If communicate with the councillors who promise, you take the time and energy, you are all welcome, once they are elected, not to divide themselves in darling. This meeting was preplanned and it was any form and fashion but to who may be able to scheduled to be so nobodyhad to sit by theirphone; reach them. nobody had to waste their energy; nobody had to You heard them say, I had to sit for this meeting. waste their physical strength, if they were a I had to sit for this meeting to get the date and the committed person. You did not have to write your time. Well, I am sitting for the last 37 years, thank presentation after ten o'clock last night, after the God for that, because I have been able to observe news, aftereverything else, afteryou decided, oh, I the fact thatthe telephone is a communication line, think I might show up; I might do my job; I might do because we do not have a fax machine to overspend something to contribute to the commitment of my 97 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

stability-but at the same time, Mrs. Ducharme has venture for both the economy and citizens of this been volunteering; Mrs. Ducharme has been province, are threatened, a need for immediate observing; Mrs. Ducharme has been, on behalf of action cannot be denied. PEP, People In Equal Participation Inc., or "pester "We would appreciate a prompt reaction and every person till you win." reply." We are winners, because we take the time. We We did receive one. We have the compliment of try and move our energy in the best avenue. That the Virology Lab coming where our PEP is why the city of Winnipeg shines in my heart, and organization petition, all levels of government I would not want to live any place else. The receive the central location and the most compliment goes to the public hearing today and to appropriate location for the Virology Lab so that we the Legislature, because you people are do not have a sick society, that we all may improve consideringthe fact that we must reviewthe fact that upon our health and save lives so we could be at the councillors, all the councillors, that is their public hearings such as today. secondary or possibly their third stepping stone in My presentation that is written as of today their lifestyle. They do not have time; they do not says-thisis the petition that was presented to the have the energy; and they do not have the ability, Honourable Gerry Ducharme in January: We, the but Mrs. Ducharme wants to hold this paper up and read one section and then read another one--hold undersigned, hereby petition the Minister of Urban Affairs, the Honourable Gerry Ducharme, MLA, to it up forme, please. amend The City of Winnipeg Act to reduce the size It says, to the former Minister of Urban Affairs: of . "Dear Honourable Gerry Ducharme, M.l.A.-this is That was presented to him in January of 1991. I dated January 10, 1991-As you know, People in represent People in Equal Participation Inc. to Equal Participation Inc. has been active in present the enclosed petition for reducing the petitioningfor a reductionof City Council. Winnipeg number of City of Winnipeg councillors from 29 to remains unique as oneof the largest municipalities 15 or less. in this country still ineffectively administered by an oversized municipal government. The In early days of Winnipeg 50 city councillorswere unmanageable size of Council has undermined the the total in number, providing a variety of views for decision-makingprocess such that pressing issues community input and needs. As the population are too oftendelayed, as in the current debate over matured, a reduction of city councillors was the multimillion dollar Virology Lab. This is an recognized and heeded. Thus, 29 councillors invaluable projectwhich will bring jobs and acclaim became thereality of the day. to our city and is presently threatened because of Upon reviewing the crisis at hand with many excessive political Indecision." community meetings and council sessions Thank God I have a respirator, dear, otherwise I regarding policy change, a decrease in councillors would not be able to communicate. Hold it up is notonly evidentlybut desperately needed. To our higher, dear. knowledge,no othercity throughout Canada except Winnipeg has the phenomenal number of 29 "PEP strongly supports the Conservative Party's councillors in office. The city of with a larger election pledge to alter the City of WinnipegAct. In population has 11 councillors or possibly 16. We light ofthe current state of oureconomy, our country are not sure, because they made a differencein two and this world, this move to improve the quality of pages, so we are not sure, so we took the lesser our lives should be initiated immediately. number, but they do not have more than 16. "We have enclosed a recent study of City Calgary and Edmonton, with an approximate as Winnipeg, have less than 15 Councils across the country, including statistics number of citizens councillors each. The City of Los Angeles, United comparing the number of councillors, ward sizes and salaries of the various councils. In light of the States of America, with over 1 0 million citizens, has cost and workload of administration, all measures nine councillors in total. should be taken to maximize efficiency as Please calculate that. Why must the citizens of acknowledged by many councillors themselves. Winnipeg pay pensions and increase benefits for When projects like the Virology Lab, a lifesaving our councillors in officepresently when a recession July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 98

exists for all others andwhen this pension plan does rookie city we have but the unique city that we have not occur in other areas of the civil work force? It is which is Winnipeg. embarrassing and a crying shame that the Ms. Friesen: So in fact it is not the cost that councillors' needs supersede those of their citizens. concernsyou. It is the administrative smoothness. I do not want the elected to think for a moment Ms. Ducharme: That is right. that decreasing the number of city councillors will be harmful to the functioning of civic politics. It is Ms.Friesen: Okay. The other point that you made believed that 12 to 15 councillors, like 12 apostles, is about the size of City Council in Winnipeg would prove to be a bondingforce that would solidify compared to other cities, and you are quite right that our city's efficiency to deliver services. The wisest , Edmonton and Calgary do have much decision of your legislative career is at hand, which smaller councils at the moment. The currentpolitics will reunite all of Winnipeg by decreasing the in Calgary in fact, which is a very fast-growing city, number of city councillors. We hope that none of is to add numbers of people to City Council and in them will have to sit by their phone and sit by their fact to expand it and, if you look elsewhere in phone, because that is the lifestyle of a disabled Canada, London, Hamilton, Ottawa, Etobicoke, person and the elderly. We love to receive phone those medium-sized cities of about the same size calls, so let us hope that we have more public as Winnipeg in fact have exactly the same number meetings on issues and amendments to all of The of people to City Council as we do in Winnipeg right City of Winnipeg Act. now, so the anomalies, the extraordinary ones, in fact, in Canada are Vancouver, Edmonton and There you go, sunshine, andkeep smiling. Calgary. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Ducharme. We are much more comparable, In fact we are Would you be prepared to entertainquestions from almost exactly comparable to places like Ottawa, the members of the committee? Etobicoke, Hamilton and London. Ms. Ducharme: I will even get up and dance. I was also disturbed a little bit by your reference Ms. Friesen: I know that you are very concerned to Los Angeles. Itis not quite the kind ofcity I would about the costs of government. I wondered if you like to live ln. I do not know ifit is the kindof city you were aware that the minister, when he introduced would like to live in, but it seems to me that the kind this bill, indicated that it is not going to save any of civic government that has come out of those very money, this is not a cost-saving measure,that in fact large American cities which are government by a there are going to be full-time city councillors who board of management of a very small number of will be paid at a full-time rate unlike the part-time rate people is not a city government which Is developed that they are paid at now. One proposal is also-It in the Interests of people. It is developed in the is not In the bill-but the assumption is that the interests of highways, transport and essentially, in councillor who has to deal with 50,000 people as the case of Los Angeles, of course, in the interest of opposed to the 19,000 or 20,000 that they have now the motor car. I wondered if you had some will also have to have somebody to answer the comment on that. Are you really recommending to phone and an assistant. I wonder what your us the kind of urban government that exists in Los comment on that was. Angeles? • (1040) Ms. Ducharme: No, I am not but, as we are Ms.Ducharme: Excellent, as long as we can reach following the example of the Americans with free the person, have their staffavailab le, not listen to an trade, free border extension, of doing this, doing answering machine that only records your message that, follow your neighbour, follow your friend, I and has no response in return except after their compared Los Angeles to the fact that with the holiday or afterthey have come back from their 15th reduction and if we clean up our act soon enough meeting or something else like that. I would and review the situation that has been stifling all of appreciate no reduction in finances but also the our municipalities and the development and growth efficiency of being able to communicate with of Winnipeg to attract people, not distract them from full-time councillors so that we have a city unified having them come and become citizens of and bonded so that we are here to help not the Winnipeg. 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

It is phenomenal that we are not recognized as a reduced size of council. Those other savings will good city. It is a rookie city, and I would like to get come from hopefully more streamlined it out of the closet and make Winnipeg recognized. administration, more direct, hands-on contact bythe That is why our PEP organization fought so hard to members of council and the ability to control the bring the virology lab, which is the major teaching expenditures at City Hall in a much more efficient hospital, which is theHealth Sciences Centre. We and betterway. That is where the savings will come have such good quality here, why can we not ultimately for the people ofWinnipeg. develop it and promote it and we cannot when we Ms.Ducharme: Yes, well, I am repeating myself a cannot reach your councillors and we have sucha second time, which I did not want to do. It is not the number. I am not following los phenomenal cost. It is the fact that you cannot reach. If you have Angeles, but I am using that as a comparison, that full-time councillors and you pay them benefits and we may fall into that tra� pensions and they do the work that the people who Ms.Friesen: I am afraid we will too. elect them will receive in return, reap the benefits of those who are elected, we will be complemented Ms.Ducharme : -ifwe open our doors as we have with a stronger council and a more committed already to the Americans. council so that we can reach them, not on a Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): To set the fly-by-night session where they are volunteering, record straight, the member for Wolseley said that but they are receiving a phenomenal wage or a the average ward size under the proposed volunteer benefit, whatever you want to call it, but configuration would be 50,000. Actually itis 40,000 they are not available to any of their municipal -(inte�ection)- you said 50,000. So itwould actually recipients. be 40,900,so there is a difference of 10,000 in the Madam Chairman: Are there further questions of figures. Secondly, cities of comparable thepresenter? If not I would like to thank you very siz�amilton, , has 16 councillorswith an much, Ms. Ducharme, for your presentation this average ward size of 38,400, which is comparable morrimgand for taking time to come out to speak to to what is being proposed; london, Ontario, has 14 us. councillors with an average of 40,200, which is almost identical to what is being proposed by this Ms.Ducharme: I would like to askyou a question. legislation. -(interjection)- No, they are not. The Where does it go from all these public hearings? number of wards in london Is seven with What happens after this? double-member wards, which means 14 Madam Chairman: The bill will be dealt with after councillors, so the member for Wolseley is wrong. public representation clause by clause at the In the case of Toronto, 37,900; in the case of committee stage and then it is reported to the Edmonton, 96,000, so I think we should set the legislative Assemblyfor third and final reading. record straight. Ms.Ducharme: Okay, Godlove you. Keep up the Firstly, the proposal is not 50,000 but 40,000 and, goodwork. secondly, it is comparable to thevery medium-sized cities that the member for Wolseley had suggested. Madam Chairman: Number six, Councillor Roger Young; No. 7, Councillor George Fraser; No. 8, Ms. Ducharme: Sir, I am glad I gave you my Councillor ; No. 9, Councillor Peter homework. Diamant; No. 10, Mr. Paul Moist. Mr. Ernst: I also wanted to put on the record, it is Mr. Moist, would you pause just for one moment true, as the member for Wolseley indicated, that I while copies of the presentation are being did not expect that there would be a saving fromthe distributed to committee members, please? salaries of members of council by the reduction. My attention has just been drawn to the fact that Those who will remain underthis proposalat 15 will there are two members making presentation here, no doubt require an increase in compensation to Mr. Paul Moist and Mr. Greg Mandzuk-is that compensate for the fact that they will be there on a accurate?-on behalf of the Canadian Union of full-time basis. So I wanted to indicate that I did not Public Employees, local 500. Please proceedwith expect any savings with regard to the salary and your presentation. benefit end of the matter. I did not suggest for a moment that there would be no savings having a • (1050) July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 100

Mr. Paul Moist (Canadian Union of Public From another perspective, we wonder why 29 Employees, Local500): Madam Chairperson, Mr. councillors are too many when you consider they Mandzuk and I will be presenting our five-page represent the municipal interests of two-thirdsof the presentation and he will begin. citizens of the province, especially when you considerthat 1 ,202 municipal officials represent the Mr. Greg Mandzuk (Canadian Union of Public remaining one-third of the province's population. Employees, Local 500): Good morning, ladies Some of the issues that the proposed reduction in and gentlemen. Local 500 of the Canadian Union council raises, from our perspective, include: of Public Employees welcomes the opportunity to address this committee of the Manitoba Legislature The cost of running for councilwill inevitably rise. about Bill 68, The City ofWinnipeg Amendment Act We believe it will rise to a level that will make it (2). Local 500 represents some 6,000 city workers prohibitive for an ordinary citizen to even in virtually all classifications, with the exception of contemplate running for office. This will perpetuate pollee, fire, transit and management. the business and developer-dominated interests who have largely controlled Winnipeg civic politics We cannot state strongly enough our opposition for over seven decades. to the provisions of Bill 68 which seek to reduce both the size of council and the number of community The cost of running council will inevitably rise as committees. The structure of the City of Winnipeg the remaining 15 councillors will almost certainly civic government has undergone numerous upgrade their salaries and acquire the necessary changes over the past 20 years. This has had an research and clerical help for themselves. There effect on civic employees, city-provincial relations will not be a cost saving. In fact, we firmly believe and, indeed, all citizens of Winnipeg. that the cost of running council will risewhile, at the same time, residents will have less direct access to The City of Winnipeg Act, in our view, ought not their councillor. to become the object of constant amendment by successive provincial administrations. Rather, the The proposed reduction in the size of council is current basic structure of 29 elected councillors and not coupled with any recommendations to further six community committeesought to be left in place. reform civic politics. Issues suchas a parliamentary system with the mayor elected from within council The proposal to reduce the size of council to 15 itselfhave not been addressed and, it appears to us, from 29 is largely a symbolic move rooted in the have not even been considered. government's last political campaign. It is not based on any tangible evidence that it will yield Mr. Moist: Community committees: One of the positive results, rather it is, in our view, that this cornerstones of Unicity was the assurance to all government has jumped on the popular bandwagon citizens that amalgamation would not reduce which states that less will be better. resident involvement in civic politics. The creation of community committees and resident advisory We urge members ofthis committee to view this groups were designed to ensure citizen involvement subject matter from a more considered and and participation in the many facets of running fact-based perspective. Before Unicity in 1971 , municipal government. The proposed amendment there were 112 elected representatives in in subsection 35(1) to reduce the number of metropolitan Winnipeg. This was reduced to 51 in community committees from six to five is the first '71 and further reduced to the current level of 30 in step toward dissolving the innovative measures 1977. Currently, each member of council enacted in 1971 to encourage and ensure local represents approximately 20,000 residents. The citizen participation in local municipal matters. proposed reduction to 15 councillors will push the The elimination of one community committee is ratio to over 40,000 residents per councillor. another political decision to make the newly There are few examples in Canada of ratios of downsized council fit into the remnants ofthe Unicity residents to elected officials being so high at the structure . The creation of five community municipal level. As well, we believe that residents committees from the current six will serve to reduce will become further removed from the level of the community nature of these committees that was government which delivers some of the most basic originally intended. There will be little in common services that citizens receive. when residents from two separate suburban areas 101 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

meet around the table with an inner city resident to to be $591 . In the past five years alone, the discuss Issues of community recreation or policing province's cutback in real property tax credits has issues. added a minimum of 11.1 percent to property tax bills. The present six district concept is not perfect. Indeed, CUPE has offered countlesssuggestions to Provincial grants in lieu of taxes: Since 1983 this City Council on howcertain public works tasks could source of city revenue has decreased from 24.7 be deliveredmore efficiently. We, therefore, are not percent of city finances to22.6 percent in 1 990. The advocatingthe retention of the current system in province's 1991 grant levels brought this figure whole. However,we firmly supportthe participation below 22 percent for the first time. of residents in the business of civicgov ernment and Reassessment: The portioning componentof the we do not agree with the reduction of one 1990 reassessment, which is completely controlled community committee to serve this provincial by the province, did shift the tax burden. government's political agenda, especially when the Residential propertyowners paid 1 .35 percent more proposed reductionwill deform the original concept of the total property tax load, while the commercial which was based on encouraging citizen category dropped by 3.7 percent. involvement from citizens within their own communities. Rnally, Manitoba gross domestic product: Since 1980 the province has increased its share of The efficiency of city government: Earlier in this provincial GOP from 17.6 percent to 19.9 percent, brief we stated our belief that theproposal to reduce while thecity's share over thesame periodfell from thesize of Winnipeg City Councilis a symbolic move 2.66 percent to 2.45 percent. This amounts to an which seeks to capitalize on the general public's increase of 13.1 percent for the province and a frustration with all levels of government; less will decrease of 8.6 percent for the city. Put another inevitably be better. CUPE rejects outright such way, the province spentseven times more than the simplistic and destructive notions. To do anything city in 1980 while in 1990, it spent 8.6 times more. less on our part would be an admission that civic Ifprovincial spending had increased onlyas fast as government in Winnipeg is not working. While we, the city, the province would be spending almost a as employees, have numerous problems with City billion dollars less in 1990. These points are Hall, andwe believe firmly that council could do a summarized more fully in the attached November better job in many areas, we do not accept the 1990paper on city finances. propositionthat City Hall is in needof such a drastic and ill-thoughtoverhaul as is being proposed. The provincial cabinet contains a number of individuals fully aware of the financial arguments Wlnnipeggers receive excellent services from containedwithin thisbrief. They are fully aware that their civic government. We all enjoy this city's the city has continued to meet the public's services, such as a quality water supply and ever-increasing demandfor services with shrinking reasonably priced hydro-electric power, which our commitments from both the provincial and the far-sighted predecessors put in place many federal governments. This has shifted an unfair decades ago. As employees, we probably deliver burden onto residential tax rates, and the public is thewide array of servicesthat Winnipeggers use on understandably mad. The city has shouldered the a daily basis. bulk of the taxpayers' frustration, yet the cause of .. (1 100) the problem is not overspending. It is unfair and insufficient funding from senior levels of In our view, the greatest strain on City Hall today government. is that created by the province and the federal government downloading their own financial The city has shouldered much of the public's problems onto municipalities and school boards. frustration and anger because of its own inability to This past year we documented our concerns on this focus its collective attention on this Legislature. in numerous briefs on the city budget. Our main The province has gotten off easy while council points includedproperty tax credits. Thefreezing of politely accepts year after year of regressive property tax credits at 1980 levels has impacted provincial funding policies. This inadequacy on the significantly on Winnipeg ratepayers. The $325 part of City Council is not so much a commentary credit, when adjusted for inflation since 1980, ought on its size as it is on its lack of commitment to setting July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 102

its own political agenda. Far more sweeping having divided up public works tasks Into six reforms will be required to correct this situation. districts. They also raised the other point because These reforms will have to emerge from within the Taraska report recommended a reduction in council itself as well as with the provincial council from 51 to 37. It ultimately was reduced to government under whose stewardship The City of the level of 29. They raised the point though that Winnipeg Act resides. The current proposals to they did not want to see the creation of community reduce the size of council and the number of committees with three elected members of council community committees ought to be defeated. Our only, because the committeewould bestymied from city deserves much more from its elected doing any business with the absence of one representatives at all levels. member of council. Madam Chair, we would be pleased to answer They therefore supported the reduction in any questions if there are any. community committees. They felt they could still live within the geographic rationale that existed for Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Moist. Are the dividing upof public workstasks into six districts. there questions of thecommittee? There is no such geographic rationale for going to Mr. Ernst: I just have onequesti on, Mr. Moist, and five. It simply fitsthe equation of 15 councillors, and that is the question with regard to community it will destroy the original concept of the community committees. The original concept, of course, as committees, in our view. you outline In your brief, relates to why community committees were formed, yet when they were Mr. Ernst: One other question, Mr. Moist. On formed, there were 12, plus the inner-city joint page two, paragraph sub (iii), at the bottom of the community committee. page, you raised the question of theparliamen tary system and the election of mayor by council. In 1977, the government of the day, the New Chemiack did not recommend that. No one whom Democratic Party government, I might add,reduced I know of has recommended that. Are you that to six, a 100 percent or 50 percent, depending proposing, sir, that thisshould have been a major upon how you wish to deal with It, reduction in the consideration when, to my knowledge at least, size of community committees, yet you are nobody is in favour of that kind of a system? concerned at this point that a reduction of one, simply because of the numbers game related to the Mr. Moist: Through the Chair, I can inform the members of City Council, is of great concern. minister, onbehalf of the labour movement,It is the Did CUPE at the time oppose the reduction of positionof the Winnipeg Labour Council, supported community committeesfrom 12 to six? by the Manitoba Federation of Labour, a long-standing policy, that a parliamentary form of Mr. Moist: Through the Chair, I guess I cannot government be enactedat the civic level. We have comment whether CUPE opposed that or not at the made representations to that effect over theyears. time. CUPE made extensive submissions to the government of theday when Unicity was created. I It is our position that we would not have to read would commend to the minister to read theTaraska editorials in the Free Press like we had to read a few report which was the prelude to the changes in weeks ago, where the mayor's own appointed 1977, and they had this to say about the reduction members of Executive Policy Committee seem to from 12 to six. They said: In terms of geography, abandon him on issues, as theyfeel like it, with no the six districts represent natural sectors of the city. allegiance to him whatsoever, certainly none of the The rivers form the major boundaries. Their minor allegiance that exists within this Chamber where the boundaries areformed by railway yards and rights leaders of your respected parties are elected from of way. The districts are much larger than the within your own ranks. We are long-standing present community areas both In terms of advocates of the mayor being elected from within population and physical extent. They also contain, council itself. In most instances, a variety of social, cultural and MadamChai rman: Are there further questions of economic groups and a variety of physical the delegation? If not, I would like to thank you for conditions. your presentation, Mr. Moist. Number 11, Ms. The Taraska report recommended the movement Shirley Lord; No. 12, Councillor Glen Murray; No. to six because it fit within a current city structure of 13, Mr. Larry Crane; No. 14, Mr. George Lapp; No. 103 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

15, Mr. Brett Lockhart. Good morning, Mr. Committee. This is regarding proposed changes to Lockhart. Do you have copies ofyour presentation the Winnipeg City Council. As a preface to this for the committee? presentation, I would like to comment, as everyone Mr.Brett Lockhart {Priv ate Citizen): No, I do not, else seems to have done quite succinctly, on the sorry. history of electoral representation and the wards they represent. In addition, I would like to comment Madam Chairman: Okay. Thank you very much. Please proceed. on the civic structures, as the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) has done, and other Canadian cities Mr.Lockhart: I will be short and sweet. I would which are comparable in size to Winnipeg. I would just like to go on the record as saying I support the refer the member for Wolseley to look at exhibit reduction of City Council and paying the councillors No. 1. for the full-time position. I am going to depart from my prepared text which I had, because you have all Prior to inception of Metro, there were heard the arguments for it before. I would just like approximately 70 councillors. Metro reduced the to raise a few concerns I have seen this morning. number of councillors to approximately 50, everybody agrees, and now the subsequent There are many population centres the size of Winnipeg throughout North America. We can pull reduction has brought us to the current structure of up examples to support both sides. The thing is, 29 councillors. What is really interesting and City Council is not operating efficiently. We have to noteworthy, the population of Winnipeg has not change it. I would like to belongto a city that, when changed significantly during that time. It is still at there is a problem, can go forward and change it. 600,000. Maybe we do not know where we are going, but We strongly believe as a group of citizens, not something has to go,so I think it is imperative that councillors, not union leaders, citizens, that this City Council is reduced. Basically, that is ali i have structureis still toolarge. It is inefficient, ineffective to say. I will save your time. Thank you. and there is very little accountability to the citizens Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. of Winnipeg. One only has to watch council's Would you be prepared to entertain questions? performance,either as a spectator or from televised Mr.Lockhart : Yes. council meetings, to conclude that the present structure is cumbersome and unproductive. Madam Chairman: Are there questions of Mr. Lockhart? H not, I thank you for your presentation. Other cities across Canada which have similar Mr. John Mandryk, Mr. David Waytowich. Good populations, and, the member for Wolseley (Ms. morning. Yourpresentation has been distributed. I Friesen), I really cannot understand how we are believe all membersof the committeehave received different from Edmonton or Calgary, people are a copy. Would you please proceed. people. Vancouver, North York and Scarborough, the size of council in these cities, excluding the • (1110) mayor, ranges from 10 to 14 members. The Mr. David Woytowlch (Privata Citizen): Madam average population per council member is 42,747. Chairman, ladies and gentleman and people ofthe In comparison, the average population per council audience, my name is David Waytowich and I am member for the City of Winnipeg is only 20,000. here representing a group of concerned citizens from Assiniboiato make a presentationat this public We are presenting the following hearing. I would just like to tell you how we did it. recommendations and these are the same ones I Fifteen of us got together, we were concerned presented, and I do not think this government has people, and we did not like the way the City of gone far enoug�15, we are recommending 12. Winnipeg was going and what could we do to That is right, because we need to streamline the change it. We spent two grueling hours in a room operationsof the City of Winnipeg-excuse me, sir, and we came up with some constructive I am talking-to allowit effectively and efficiently into recommendations. the '90s and the 21st Century. These First of all, I would like to thank you for the recommendations, by the way, were based on a opportunity that we had to present these earlier review of other civicstructure s, and this is what we recommendations to the Winnipeg Wards Review came up with. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 104

Boundaries. The Red River and Assiniboine Citizens in each ward will now have ready access Rivers form natural boundaries that divide the city to four representatives, not one, four. When you get of Winnipeg into three areas. I would like the on the phone you have four representatives you can members to refer to exhibit 2. We are proposing, call, not one-full-time representatives. Thus, the and we have made this proposal to the Wards citizens will now have direct access to these Review Committee, that all these areas constitute a committees. ward for electoral purposes of substantially equal Reducing the number of city councillors to 12 population. full-time positions will improve the accountability We recommend three wards. Each of the wards and the efficiency of City Council. This will be shall elect four councillors for a total council of 12 reflected financially, maybe not in reduced salaries members. Each council positionshall be a full-time but in areas of reduced administration costs. position accountable to the citizens, with a salary Councillor Boychuk brought that out when he parallel to that of the Province of Manitoba MLAs. attended our meeting in Assiniboia. He brought in The term of the council we recommend should be a semi load of paper and he said, how can I reduce threeyears. all my administration? I am going to have more work to do. We said, no, you are showing us that Community Committees. We recommend they this is inefficientwhen you are bringing all this paper should cease to exist. Councillors will form part of in, so he defeated his owncommentary, I believe. standing committees. Their recommendations will flow directly to council andthis we also believe will In conclusion, the citizens of Winnipeg-this is replace the current Winnipeg Executive Policy still among our group-are among the highest Committee. paying municipal taxpayers of any major city in Canada. Streamlining City Council is the first step Standing Committees. We recommend that each to reducing and controlling future tax increases to standing committee shall consist of five councillors, the citizens of Winnipeg. with each ward being represented by at least one member and no more than two. This is so thatwhen I would like to make a few comments to the people phone, that the phone will be answered. committee here, personal comments. I am an environmental engineer. I work very hard. This is MadamChairman : Mr. Woytowich, I wonder ifyou a recession. I work fora very small company. I am might not turn away from the microphone because taking time away to be here, and it disturbs me that Hansard has difficulty when you move away from the City of Winnipeg can, in time of recession, in the mike, picking up, and everything is recorded times of the highest taxes, give a 4 percent or simultaneously. whatever, 8 percent increase, to their civic Mr. Woytowlch: The major standing committees employees when I am striving to keep my job. that we recommended were health, education, Right? Secondly, what I cannot understand is that finance and works and operations. after these councillors, I believe, accept this 4 percent or 8 percent,then theysay now we have to In summary and conclusions, this is what we build a new water treatment plant worth$300 million. came up with. These recommended changes Where are we going to find the money for that? I reflect similar ward structures and size of councils will tell you something. to that of Canadian cities which are comparable in I am a firm believer-and I am getting a little size to the city of Winnipeg, example, Calgary, frustrated here and a little excited-but I am a firm Edmonton, which, by the way, cut back during the believer we can cut down on our bureaucracy, and recessionary time in the '80s. this is the first step let me say, I hope, to the The recommended system of three wards will government. Cut down thesize of City Council, cut fairly represent, we believe, the multicultural nature down the size of districts from six to three, cut down of the city of Winnipeg and allow all councillors to the size of our school divisions, the number of reflect this unique feature. In other words, if four trustees, and do you know what we will find out? councillors can be elected in one ward, it does not Maybe we will not need five commissioners to run matter where in the ward, it will certainly represent this city. Maybe we are not run by bureaucracy as we believe the multicultural sector of the city of anymore; maybe we are run by the 15 councillors Winnipeg. that we elect. Would that not be nice? 105 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

Anyway, that concludes my comments. I would municipal levels. Why? Simply because the cost of entertain any questions that this committee may overextended government is becoming more and have.. more unaffordable to the average taxpayer. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Woytowlch. This should not be interpreted to mean that we Are there questions of Mr. Woytowich? need not make every effort to afford democratic Ms. Friesen: I do not have any questions, but I representation. What I mean is that just as the would like to pass Mr. Woytowich the amended present generations exhibit a keen knowledge of paper which I did table in the House, which does product quality and customer service when showthat Hamilton does have an average number choosing a consumer item, and just as successful of population per council of 19, 198; london has companies have redefined their management and 20,125; Etobicokehas 25,200; Ottawa has 20,500. administration and production to accommodate the So there are other examples as well. consumer, so we expect government tooperate with service and quality, accountability and cost a top Mr. Woytowlch: I know that, member for priority. Wolseley. What I am saying Is, we can go into this city or this city. We can say we are a little bit like A (1 120) Ottawa or alittle bit like Calgary. I am saying, I have I think it timely that changes be made within the listed in Exhibit No. 1 what I could find-five administration and management at City Hall to communities of comparablepopulation to the city of synchronize with the streamlining of council. The Winnipeg. They are running very efficiently, very terms "worker management" and "worker control," effectively. I believe that we do not have-they are meaning the same Individuals who are the going with full-time councillors in thesecities, which technologists and the production workers are also I believe is certainly an asset. the managers andthe administrators, is a concept that should be studied by top city administrators, I am really looking forward that if we do have elected councillors, there will be more participation especially in light of recent news that a top official on thepart of people to attendand actuallyvote. let sees fit to reward lack of motivation with salary me tell you, if they know people are going to be increases. voting, they vote-are going to be having full-time This type of governmentCanadians can no longer positions there are going to be a lot more people afford and will not buy. I think this is a major reason participating in this function. Now it is just a joke, why, at this point in time, people are very interested basically, you know, in terms of the election of city in initiating a reductionin the number of councillors. councillors in this city. Councillors, being public trustees, should be Madam Chairman: Are there further questions of subject to the highest standards of public scrutiny Mr. Woytowich? Ifnot, I would like to thank you for and accountability. However, in many ways, I think your presentation, Mr. Woytowich. people feel that theyhave been mocked. Mr.Woytowl ch: Thankyou very much. The provincial report entitled The Winnipeg MadamChai rman: Number 18, Mr. Robin Hall; 19, Wards Review prepared by Mr. Ross is an earnest Mrs. Charlotte Hozumi. Am I pronouncing your and well-thought-out presentation which, to my name correctly? mind, offers many excellent suggestions that will improve representation and efficiencyat City Hall. I Mrs. Charlotte Hozuml (Private Citizen): Yes, think his committee's recommendation that council fine. be 15 rather than the recommendation of 23 that Madam Chairman: I believe all members of the was suggested by the municipal reportis a goodfirst committee have received a copy of your step. It bringsthe number of councillors more in line presentation. Please proceed. with the representation established in other Canadian cities. Mrs.Hozuml: As a member of T.H.R.I.F.T., I wish to address this committee in respect to the size of I cannot agree with the argument presented in the council at our City Hall. I believe the issue under municipal report that the complex issues of discussion should also be approached from the Winnipeg's civic politics may require a diversity of perspective of reducing the expansion of opinion not possible with a small council, nor can I government at the federal, provincial, as well as agree that Winnipeg's cultural, ethnic and social July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 106

economic diversity sets it so much apart from other viewing public, because this coverage is, after all, Canadian cities that comparisons are not pertinent. the only time most of ushave a window to CityHall. Certainly, all major cities across Canada have While I am on the topic of television coverage, I unique aspects. I cannot really believe that would like to point out that it is difficult for the councillors must face more diverse or complex discussions to move along at a pace that allows the problems here in Winnipeg than in other cities. viewer to follow the point, because each of the 29 Central Toronto, for example, and Vancouver councillors inevitably deliver harangues of 15 whose population is comparable have 16 and 1 0 minutes or more. Fifteen councillors should be able members respectively. to cut the time needed for council meetings. The 29 council system has become so bogged down that The popular argument that a reduction in the size they seem to lack enough authority or leadership to of council will necessarily result in less public do much more than to rubber-stamp influence is, in my opinion, untrue. People feel as if recommendations from city administrators, even if they are notbeing heard now. I can cite a recent they may not reflect the views of the people. event as an example. I think it an excellent recommendation that City Last summer large number of Winnipeggers Council positions be considered but not legislated signed petitions and attended meetings as a result full time. This ensures more people the chance to of excessively high property tax increases. run for office. This will help to ensure the best Throughout the winter, T.H.R.I.F.T. has received selection of peoplefor office. Thewards, of course, thousandsof petitionsas a result of these increases. will become larger, but I do not perceivethis to be a Presentations to council regardingthis matter have disadvantage. I agree it will lead to a less parochial been made. Yet, the 29 decided to vote fora further division of the city. Each councillor will be tax increase again this year. It is not hard to responsible for a wider, and therefore diverse, presume that another increase is likely next year. mixture of people. For example, if an older area is In the mindsof a great number of people, the 29 integrated into a newer area, a councillor would councillors have not been aggressively responding have to decide how to best meet the concerns of a to the concernsof their constituents but seem to be wider spectrum, and residents would also have to paying more heed to party politics and to other recognizethere are nowvarious divergent concerns powerful outside influences. to understand. Whatever the reasons, factions and disarray exist With respect to the issue of support staff, I have at City Hall. People have been talking. H the 29do an odd feeling that this might lead to a spending not listen, why would we think we would be worse spree. I hope this will not be the mind-set. There off with 15? Rather than curtailing communication, should be a strict modest spending ceiling I think the significant restructuring that will occur established, and tasks will have to be managed along with the transition to 15 will be good news to within the guidelines. Any further comments I have most people and will encourage more people to get would be a reiteration of the excellent and involved. well-meaning reportconducted by Mr. Ross forthe betterment of this fine city of Winnipeg. I hope his Furtherto this, I can only wonder at the attitude I recommendations will be carried out smoothly, and would term as unprofessional, when very often that Premier Filmon honours his election promise to delegations from the public are often met with reduce the size of council. Thank you. needless arrogance and downright rudeness. Councillors get up and leave for coffee, go visiting MadamChairman: Thank you, Mrs. Hozumi. I will back and forth. Often there is not even a quorum ask the committee if there are any questions. when someone has taken time from work to make Ms. Friesen: I was interested in the early part of a presentation at City Hall. This is all documented your presentation where you talk about government on TV. as delivering a product, operating with service and quality and delivering a product. I cannot say that having 15 members would suddenly change all this, but perhaps it is a good Obviously, there are certain kinds of services that time to work on an image change that would impart governments do deliver, but from the perspective of an impression of efficiency and team work to the an elected representative, one of the other things 107 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

that I think every representative tries to do is to talk idea behind community committees, and I think to the people, whether It is in public meetings or at probably the concept is very good. I do not know the doorstep, to understandtheir perspective and to enough about theprocedures at City Hall or how the represent their point of view in the various forms of line of communication is broken or continued to government, and I wondered if you had some make a real recommendation about changes in that reflections on that. I notice, for example, that you type of structure, butfrom my own perspective, I like think that 15 minutes in City Council is too long to there to be a way that the normal person could have represent the opinions of 20,000 people, which is a chance to discuss topics that are being talked what a city councillor is expected to do now. I about at City Hall, and I think that is why the wonder what the appropriate time would be, and community committeeswere established. how you see that representative function. I must say that there is an awful lot of emphasis Mrs. Hozuml: Well, I think really to argue or being placed on these community committees, but discuss theappropriate time is a littlebit like arguing I do not think that most people utilize them. I know how many angels can balanceon ahea dpin. I think myself, moving from another city, another country, what I meant in my topicwas councillors seem to go and coming here and becoming more and more off on topics that really are not pertinent to the Involved in political Issues, I did not even know of discussion, andIf a councillor has something that is theirexistence . vastly Important to say, and many times it Is important, but not just as a matter of course every I do not know whether there should be some sort councillor has to speak. My point is that things of restructuring to combine the concept to make could be made a lot more fast-paced by my them more interesting or accessible, or advertise suggestion. them more so that the average citizen could feel motivated to attend the meetings because I do not When you mention aboutproduct and company, think a lot of people do attend these community I think thatIs sortof a line thatpeople like to pick up, committee meetings, even for quite Important that governments should be likened to corporate issues. structure and all that. What I am merely saying Is that this is the reality of theworld today, and I think When It is argued that discussions resulting from governmenthas to wake up andget in tune with it. these meetings represent the community, I do not That is all. think thatcan be consideredas true because there may have only been six people show up. The Ms.Friesen: I was trulytrying to understand your conceptof this type of communication is good, and perspective which is very different from mine, and I can see that what you are saying is not that the 15 certainly I would not like to see a block between the minutes Is what you are objectingto, it Is the content. people and the councillors, butI think the way has You say people go offon tangents. to be redefined. Mrs.Hozu ml: Well, theydo go off ontangents , and Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Ministerof Government I think it wastes time. I am not saying that I think that Services): I appreciate your comments In regard to there should be less representationfrom the people. the time element at City Hall, when they get up in I think that the government of the '90s should be front of the TVcameras and expoundtor 15 minutes involving more people, and people have more because most people-and I want to put it on the chance to be involved. record-do not appreciate that a councillor on a local issue gets a chance to talk at community Ms. Friesen: I wonder how we are going to committee right now. He also gets a chance to talk accomplish that when we are cutting community at a standing committee, and unlimited time at both committees from six to five, for example, because of those. He also gets unlimited time at EPC, so by that is one route for involvement. In the new the time It gets to the council floor, I appreciate your situation, what kind of involvement would you comments that unless it has not been said before a suggest? How would you think people should be lot, and I guess all politicians have a tendency to do involved? that, but at City Hall maybe people only think that is * (1 130) the only opportunity they have. They have Mrs. Hozuml: I did not mention community opportunity through the whole system to make committees In my talk here, but I understand the comments on issues and policy. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 108

Madam Chairman: Mrs. Hozumi, did you wish to the operations of council the cumbersome aspects comment? of dealingwith 29 councillorsrepresenting their own parochial interests. Mrs.Hozuml: Yes, I agree wHh that and I think that a lot of times, it seems like the issues are not so Just because City Council is a large dose does much the pointof the discussion, but it is a poiHical not mean that its quality representation Is for Its posturing or that sort of thing. Although these cHizens. Hopefully, a smaller council will allow for mannerisms are not going to be necessarily more if its attention isdirected at theimportant global changed with reduction of council, I think that with a concerns and interests of the city of Winnipeg reduction of council, there are only 15 members or cHizens. The move to a smaller City Council will not maybe less, so things can move along, and people only remove the parochialism and competition will see it as being not somuch in disarray, but more between wards, but will also provide for a wider united and tight. perspective of the policy developments and budgets. This is a direction in which City Council Madam Chairman: Thank you for your must move if it is to maintain services and limit the presentation. Mr. Patrick Daly. Goodmorning, Mr. burden the council places upon its taxpayers. Daly, do you have copies of your presentation for committee members? A smaller council will also provide for a quicker decision-making process as the cumbersomeness Mr. Patrick Daly (Private CIUzen): I did not get of council is removed resulting in the council time to duplicate it yet. becominga more effectivecity manager. This point Madam Chairman: But you can leave it wHh the is probably the most important, especially as cost Clerk after? rises and the abiiHy of people to pay more property Mr. Daly: Yes. taxes is Impossible. Thank you, honourable Chairperson. Madam Chairman: Okay, thank you very much. Please proceed. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Daly. Would you be prepared to entertain questions? Mr. Daly: Honourable Chairperson, honourable members, I would like to take this opportunity to Mr. Daly: To the best of my ability. present my perspective of the changes that are to MadamChair man: Thank you. be made to City Hall. In other words, I support the Ms.Friesen: I certainly sympathize with you on the intent of the bill, not as an academic or as a political problem and plights of the Winnipeg homeowner. I scientist, but as John Doe citizen, as a taxpayer. think what I would like to suggest is that the It is about time that something was done to Winnipeg taxpayer, property taxpayer, Is at the address the inefficiencies of City Council of bottom of a very long chain ofa federalgovernment Winnipeg, and this step to reduce the size of council which has offloaded many ofits economic problems by almost half is a move in the right direction. As a onto the provinces by cutting health and social property owner and taxpayer to all levels of welfare payments and a provincial government government, I have become increasingly frustrated which has replied in exactly the same way and has by the constant and often large yearly increases in offloadedmany ofits costsin roads and other areas taxes at all levels of government that are to the City of Winnipeg which only has the accompanied with no apparent increases, but opportunity, the City of Winnipeg can only tax the actually decreases in some services. homeowner. It cannot tax more fairly across the The City of Winnipeg is by far the leader in raising population. So from my perspectivethat is certainly their property taxes by amounts sometimes one of the problems that city taxpayers are facing. I wondered what comments you might have on that. approaching and reaching double digits in recent years. This same council has not made any Mr. Daly: I appreciate your frustration with the endeavours to become efficient at a time when poiHical appreciation of the federal or provincial taxpayers who are obviously overburdened would governments. As I said in my opening point, I am have chosen instead to pass on large increases in here as John Doe citizen, not as an academic or a property taxes to the people of Winnipeg. By political scientist. In that context, I will address my reducing the size of City Council, the government of concerns to the way in which I see the city being Manitoba has made a move that will release from managed. I think that is where a question well 109 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

documented, the frustrations of the citizens in right in my view that the administration is not having to deal with city councillors,the bureaucracy controlled by the elected representatives. Again, I that is taking total control of the city and failure on am concerned about how cutting City Council is council through the mere fact that they cannot actually going to change that. interact with each other is leading to this frustration I did some research on this, and I found one article with thecity residents. which had lookedat cities across Canada which had Regardless of whether the province or the feds made the change from part-time councillors to have cut back, the issue we have to deal with here full-time councillors. The one thing that they found is what is addressing the concerns of the citizen of was that when cities made that change to full-time Winnipeg in setting up an administration, a City councillors was that every city councillor believed Council administration, which will act in their themselves to be an administrator. They were full interestsby cuttingthe duplication and by putting the time onthe job and that they began in fact to interfere administration in a position where it is accountable with administration andto believe themselves to be to council and not the other way around. That is administrators not representatives and in fact the what I think John Doe citizen is all about. conflicts increased. Now that is only one piece of Ms.Friesen : What I am trying to get at is I am not research, a fairly small sample, but I do not have any sure that the problems of Winnipeg are going to be other evidence. I wondered if you had any solved by cutting City Council. The problems of experience orthat you had heard from other people Winnipeg which stem from the increasing welfare abouthow a cut in City Councilwould in fact change rolls, increasing unemployment, the migration into thatrelati onship. the inner city of so many people who require a great Mr. Daly: Again, your question Is somewhat deal of support. The city has a lot of financial problems. The only way at the moment thatthe city hypothetical in the sense that you can apply the can raise money is by the property tax which falls statisticsof othercommunities, but this is Manitoba. very heavily, obviously, on one particular group of This is a distinct community on its own. In that people. I am not sure that a group of 15 is going to sense, the community will respond to the have any different solutions than the group of 29 for frustrations that it is experiencing. If your bank that problem. They can only have the property tax manager is ripping you off, you ask to get him or now, in fact, they will have a certain type of removedand get another onein. That is not to say business tax. that the new manager is going to be any better than the old one, but at least you feel confident that • (1 140) something has been done and that the end result So howwill cuttingCity Council give the city more may be a more efficient system. I guess that is the options to manage the problemsthat it has? best scenario I can draw. Mr. Daly: Well, again I go back to the point of Mr. Ernst: Mr. Daly, well, my colleague, Ms. addressing the efficiency of the current council. I Friesen, indicated just a moment ago that the ability am not an authority as I have said on the political of thecity to raise money is a problem. aspirations of City Council or itsinteraction with the I want to ask you the question, do you think raising administration of City Hall, but clearly there is enough information coming through the media at more money is a problem or do you think that cutting least to suggest that City Council does not have expenditures is the real problem? control of the administration which in turn is creating Mr. Daly: Well, I would suggest that control of thisdemise for thecity taxpayer. So, in that sense, expenditures would be the priority to be looked at. I I think any change is worth a look at. If a reduced am not suggesting that you cut back and create City Hall or a reduced council load-it may fail. If it unemployment and putpeople on welfare, but I think does, I will come back here in four years and tell you control of expenditures which clearly is a factor in the opposite, but for the moment, let us try the way that City Hall is being run these days is the something. concern of every citizen in this city. So I would say Ms. Friesen: Again, I share some of your a more responsible control of where our dollars are frustrations about the conflict in fact between city going and why they are going in such a way I would councillors and administration. The lines are not see as the concern. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 110

Madam Chairman: Thank you for your As we are seeing right now, the public service is presentation, Mr. Daly. becoming a monster out of control. I couldthrow a statistic at you that I recentlyheard . Approximately, Mr. Daly: Do I leave this here? 25 percentof the population serves within thescope Madam Chairman: Yes, If you would leave that of the public service. with the Clerk, she will make copies. I hope you find that very amusing, Mr. Ernst, Ms. R. M. Goodman (Private Citizen): Good because I am trying to speak and I want your rapt morning. attention. It is very importantto me that you watch Madam Chairman: Good morning. Members of me while I speak. I want you to get every word of the committee have received your presentation; what I have to say. please proceed. I think the public service is becoming a monster Ms. Goodman: That was what I was about to do. out of control. Need I start to list the improprieties committed by certain members of the public service, Good morning, greetings, felicitations, recently, as in theCl aro Paqueo affair, RotaryPines, salutations, et cetera. Before I get Into reading from et cetera, at all three levels of government-no, I do I my paper here, I would first of all like to state that not needto mudsling today. I am sure you are well did not findout about having to give this presentation aware of the problemsyour government has. until after 5 p.m. last night. I phoned this morning to the Clerk's office to clarify as to what the call entailed Presently, councillors are able to serve a smaller and was told I had to be here at ten o'clock this population with maximum contact. I find that It is morning. Aside from what is writtenwithin my brief, relatively easy to contact councillors right now. I I will be ad-libbing and also making findif I make a phone call, nine times out of 10 I am recommendations at the end of my brief. I enjoy called back within the same business day, ad-llbbing. I am an ex-toastmaster. It is my forte. depending, of course, on theseverity ofthe concern that is being presented via the telephone. I will introduce myself. My name is R. M. Goodman. I was put down as a concerned citizen, If this bill is passed, the average ward will most but I will also listmy communityqualifications. I am likely double in size-1 had put triple in size in my a member in good standing of the Point Douglas brief. I will nowreiterate and change that to double Residents' Committee, a very successful lobbying in size, because I have been since informed that and protest and community action group. I am a they will likely double as opposedto triple. member of the Norquay Community Club. I am a This will be make direct contactwith constituents past resident of the town of Lynn Lake, a town which next to impossible. Constituents will find themembers of theProgressive Conservative Party themselves dealing more and more with appointed are probably very familiarwith. I am also quite the administrators rather than their councillor. activistfrom the North. Another problem that will be faced witha reduced I shall go forth . To whom It may concern, council is higher election costs. The average although reducing the size of the Winnipeg City campaign costs approximately $10,000, easily Council may be perce ived as a sound , affordable to most andto those who are motivated administrative move, I strongly feel this legislation, to fund-raise. With wards to be doubled in size, if passed, could bodeill for the city In terms of equal, election costs will be affordable to those very few unbiased community representation. elite in society with corporate backing. Philosophically speaking, council members are Rneand dandy. If I want to run, the Richardsons representatives of their respective might back me, but is it goingto back JoeBlow down communities--not parties but communities--and the street who is really just as passionate as me? must aside their own personal agendas in order to No, I do not think so. serve those who elected them. All too many times, • (1 150) this philosophy gets lost along the way. Little by little,the electors' voices are losing their impact as Let us face it, money is the name of the game. government moves become more streamlined, You all know the old saying, money talks, placing public servants in key decision-making bull-bleep-walks. I see this every day with this roles. government. Those with money will be calling the 111 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

shots for everyone, and where will the poor, the enjoy the look on your face, If I had a camera, single parents, theworking poor,the first-time inner beautiful-how dare you make assumptions as to city homeowners andthe special interest groups be what will please me the individual urbanite. Who then? I know. They will be receiving their eviction gave you the authority to do this? I certainlydid not. notices so some stupid, useless dinosaur of a I was not consulted. I had to let the government development like Rotary Pines can be hammered know myself about my feelings. Unfortunately, not through the corporatelycontr olled council,becau se, too many people are as articulate as myself. They my friends, thatis what you are going to get if you do not possess theability to question without fear or go throughwith a recommendationof 15. Thecosts trepidation. Therefore, while you ponder, if you will be heightened;you will have corporate backing ponder, what I have said, remember that there going in there. Not community agendas, but remains the distinct possibility that I may be corporate agendas, development agendas, big-time speaking for the residents of Point Douglas as a government agendas. whole. In my community,when I speak, I am heard. What has that got to do with council as it stands I am willing to field questions. now? Other than The City of Winnipeg Act, which Madam Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Goodman. is what we are talking about here today, I see no Are there questions of thepresenter? Thank you for input from provincialgover nment having any validity your presentation. within civic government. The issues are unique. Number 23, Mr. Grant Nordman;No. 24, Mr. John The city of Winnipeg is unique. We can compare it Harrison; No. 25, Ms. Deborah Smith. all we want to other cities in NorthAmerica, but it is unique. Look at the way our city planning is. We Ms. Deborah Smith (Choices): Madam are not as well-planned a city as Calgary. We do Chairperson, I am- not have the revenue that Calgary has obviously. Madam Chairman: Just one moment, Ms. Smith, We are an oldercity than Calgary . Compareas you while your presentation is being distributed to the may. I happen to like this city a great deal for all its members of the committee. You may proceed. mucky, muckinessand constructionseasons-we ll, in my neighbourhood, Point Douglas, you know, Ms. Smith: I am new to all of the members here where my car windows get smashed out once a and they to me. I was wondering, Madam month,I stilllike it. I cannot see 15 councillorsbeing Chairperson, if I could have some introduction. effective as opposed to 29. Perhaps another Madam Chairman: I see no problem with that. I number should be reached, somewhere in the will startover at thefar corner. Would the members middle of thosetwo numbers. please identifythemselves by name. I am standinghere todayso you can hear and see Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey (Fort Garry): I am me face to face giving out my concernsfor what they Rosemary Vodrey. I am the MLA for Fort Garry. are worth. I know deep down that this bill will go Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): My name through, regardless of what I have to say. This is Gerry McAlpine. I am the MLA for Sturgeon government has already proven their willingness to Creek. forgo the democratic process in terms of other edicts Mr. Bob Rose (TurtleMountain): I am Bob Rose, recently passed down in the Family Services department. I am an Inner city dweller. I am a MLA for Turtle Mountain. taxpayer. I am a middle-class taxpayer. I rent Mr. Ernst: Jim Ernstis my name. I am the MLA for property on HigginsAvenue formy business. I own Charleswood. my home on Hallet Street which I am fighting right Mr. Carr: My name is . I am the MLAfor now to retain my mortgage for, and I am a Crescentwood. professional. I also have some real estate in Lynn Lake, if anybody else is interested. Ms. Friesen: Jean Friesen, Wolseley. Mr. (Elmwood): Jim Maloway, Condescension in the form of government edicts Elmwood. does not please me at all. How does this government know what the people require in terms Ms. Smith: How do you do, all of you. My name is of responsible civic government? How dare Deborah Smith and I am here on behalf of Choices: you-and I see you smirking some more, I really A Coalition for Social Justice. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 112

Les Miserables Is aboutthe disenfranchised. Itis Poverty, lack of education, racism and violence a sad irony that the fictionalized poor are glorified mitigate against assertiveness. Inner-city people while Winnipeg's inner-city residents are vilifiedand have the quietest voices in the city andthe provincial will be silenced by the passage of Bill 68. In government seems intent on silencing them Choices' submission to the WinnipegWards Review completely. Currently, there is the potential for Committee, we clearly stated our opposition to the inner-city residents to have a voice in the level of reduction in the number if city councillors, and we government closest to them. Ward size were not alone in our opposition. Yet, as approaches the size of provincial constituencies. anticipated by many of our members, many Anything larger will derogate from the principle of submissions like ours fell upon partisan ears of the representation by population which should be committee whose mandate, it appears, was simply understood to have a qualitative, as well as to comply with the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. quantitative, aspect. That is, not only the size of a Ernst), not to conductan independentstudy into the particular population is represented, but also its size of City Council. unique socioeconomic, geographic and cultural Bill 68 now proposesa reduction in size ofcouncil features. to 15 from 29, almost half. We must reiterate our Mr. Ernst thinks the word"reduction" has magical opposition to this reduction because it will hurt properties that will re-elect him. It is a red herring. residents of the Inner city. These changes and In fact, we believe there is ample evidence from others proposed by Bill 68will be detrimental to the other jurisdictions to show that the size of council poorand those least able to defend themselves. As has little effecton administrative costs. Costof City Choices' statement of purposestate s, we want a city Council comprise only .04 percent of the total city where the poorest of our community can count on budget. Any reduction in the number of city improving their quality of life rather than facing councillors' salaries would be meaningless. cutbacks in opportunities available to them. It Further, the larger ward size and the committee makes neither economic nor social sense to offer recommendation that councillors be full time may only welfare to the poor. We want a city where the actually mean that councillors can expect a salary opportunities for a decent standard of living are increase which would reflect full-time, nothalf- time open to all, regardless of age, gender, family status, remuneration. In short, salaries are more likely to disability, choice of neighbourhood or race. double, thus with half thenumber ofcouncillors , the The Minister of Urban Affairs has not articulated cost will be the sameas it is now. a goodreason to reducethe number of seats on City * (1200) Council. Any consideration to the number of seats should be made on the basis of mutuality ofinterest What will be reducedover time is thecost of social and the likelihood of intraward co-operation with services to inner city. As the voices of inner city sensitivity to the special needs of inner-city residents are overwhelmed and silenced by the residents. more assertive Winnipeggers in larger wards, demand for inner city serviceswill be silenced. That Les Miserabies of Winnipeg live in the inner city. They are the working poor, the unemployed, the is not to say that the problems will go away. The destitute, the homeless, the under and uneducated, problems will worsen, but the people will be without the illiterate. The inner city has a higher representation. concentration of new immigrants, students, Mr. Ernst claims these amendments will improve aboriginal people andgay and lesbian people than the efficiency of City Council. Because the minister the rest of the city. Inner-city residents are often has never defined "efficiency," we can only assume renters rather than home owners but nonetheless that it is inefficiencyin the politicaldecision-making pay taxes indirectly through their rent. They are the process and not the cost-effectiveness of city perpetrators and most often the victims of servicesdelivery herefers to. However, the level of traditionally defined crime, and they are certainly the taxation and the efficiency of service delivery is victims of corporate and state crime which much upon the mindsof Winnlpeggers, so it is easy perpetrates a system which perpetuates their for Mr. Ernst to exploit their disaffection with City misery. Council. 113 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

The truth is that reducing the number of seats has Reducing the size of council will notlead to a more nothing to do with servicedelivery, nor will it improve democratic, accountable City Council. With fewer political efficiency. Democracy costs. It has been councillors, there will be less opportunity to meet argued that City Council meetings are too long and councillors or to have concernsraised with elected that City Council and community committees are officials. The ability to affectdecisions made by the spending endless hours dealing with minute details level of government closest to the people will be rather than policy formation. Themost efficient City severely curtailed. Council would be a a City Council of one. It is not Conversely, the ability of councillors to reflect democracy, but it is efficient in the Machiavellian concerns in their wards will be diminished. The best sense of the word. The problem with City Council part about the civic level of government is its is not one of political efficiency, but rather closeness to the bread and butter issues. Much accountability. more than in other levels of government, city Efficiency and cost-effectiveness are laudable councillors must be familiar with their goals worth pursuing. They must not, however, neighbourhoods and even individual's concerns. become the only incentives to changing the way we Doubling the number of people councillors govern ourselves. represent will make this impossible. Rnally, a smaller council would mean the cost of Any legislative changes to The City of Winnipeg financingan electioncampaign would be prohibitive Act must be motivated by the more important goal for all but those with big business or major political of ensuring the democratic functioning of our partybacking. governing institutions. Further proposals to reduce or eliminate the We would contend that the process adopted by number of community committees in the name of the provincial governmentfor reform ofThe City of streamlining administrative functions will have the Winnipeg Act is flawed. To change any one aspect same consequences as reducing the number of of the existinggove rning structure will undoubtedly councillors. have a rippling effect, making other changes necessary andleading to furtheralterati onsas new Doing away with community committees will close problems are created by a system thrown out of the doors to power to all but the well connected or the financially well endowed. Furthermore, a balance. This piecemealapproach will not result in majority of councillors have stated that participation a responsive, representative, efficient ordemocr atic in community committees is one of the most government at a civic level. rewarding aspects of the job of city councillor. There is little doubt that problems exist at City Instead of streamlining the decision-making Hall, but we believe that these problems are rooted process, eliminating community committees will more in the lack of accountability at City Council mean that technical matters and minor variances thana perceived lack of efficiency. will have to be dealt with by council as a whole or For our city government to be considered referred to the administrative bureaucracy. In turn, democratic it must be open and accountable. As this will further remove financial control and policy the Rnal Report of the 1986 City of Winnipeg Act decisions from councillors and citizens. Review Committee stated: "the process of The cost of administering these committeesis a decision-making within city government should be small price to pay for accessibility to councillorsand as visible and as easily understood by citizens as the decision-making process. possible. (The City of Winnipeg Act must) make We believe The City of Winnipeg Act as it now certain that the decision-making process is less exists gives many responsibilities and powersto the protracted and contusing." community committees which they choose not to Choices wantscitizens to have the opportunity to exercise. The consequence of this inaction is the know Issues facingcity governmentand to be able administrative and financial bottleneck at City to identify with the public officials who are in charge Council. of those issues. Clearer democratic accountability Choices would instead recommend changes in to the electorate for policy results must be the sections of The City of Winnipeg Act pertaining encouraged. to community committees with the view to July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 114

strengtheningthe powers of thesecomm ittees. We continuance of the yellow placards posted on all recommend that councillor members of community respective properties. Thank you. committees be subject to recall and/or be ruled Madam Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Smith. Would ineligible for future elections if they do not develop you be prepared to entertainsome questions? and implement community plans or area action plans. Ms. Smlth: Yes. A cornerstone of democracy is the principle that Mr. Ernst: I just had one concern with regard to the people have the right to choose their your comment on community committees. Your representatives and the forms of institutions statement says: "Further proposals to reduce or governing them. Choices argues that this basic eliminate the number of community committees ... principle is abrogated by the manner in which ." There is no proposalto eliminate any community changes to The City of Winnipeg Act are now being committees. There is a proposal to reduce the proposed. number by one given the reduced size of City Council, and in order to have adequate A rural-dominated governing party in the representation from each of the community legislature is proposing to change the city's committees, the number of community committees governing institutions. Winnipeg's population is proposed to be reduced by one,to five from six. comprises approximately 60 percent of the population of Manitoba, and yet significantchanges let me ask the question. Are you aware that to the way Winnipeg is being governed are being there is no proposal to do away with community proposed by a provincial government which has committees or to change their function? Their neither the majority of seats nor a majority of votes function Is to continue as it has been. in Winnipeg. Ms. Smith: If you reduce the numberof community This committee is studying changes which a committees you will be discarding some rural-based government wishes to impose on those committees. Some will take priority over others. It It does not directly represent. Only after citizen is necessaryto retain at least that numberin order initiatives and careful study should changes be to protect what we hold so dearly, which is made to The City of Winnipeg Act. democracy. The voice of the people cannot be heard continually by the representatives. They This is a summary of Choices recommendations: must have access to thecommittees. If you reduce Amendment 3(1): Thesize of City Council should that, you reduce thevoice of the people. remain the same. Any evaluation of size must take Mr. Ernst: I will comment again with respect to into account the features of particular communities community committees. Ifthere are five community within and/or betweenwards. committees as opposed to six, people still have Amendment 9: The number of community access to those five community committees. They committees should remain at six. These still have the same kindsof opportunities to provide committees should be retained as the point where their input. citizens can best become involved In city affairs. • Councillors should be responsible for co-ordinating (1210) and implementing area action plans with their The number is not chosen out of a desire to community committees. If these action plans are reduce the number of community committees, but not implemented, community committees would be to appropriately have represented equal numbers empowered to recall councillors. from across the city. I also have an addendum to this presentation. It Ms. Friesen: One ofthe consequences of reducing just came to my notice that there is discussion the number of city councillors is that the Winnipeg abroad regarding Bill 35 and the changes to the MlAs are going to be representing half the number zoning act. I wish to state that Choices is opposed of people. A Winnipeg MLA will be representing to these changes as they represent a reduction of around 20,000 and the new city councillors will be notice to the public for all zoning changes. As all representing about 40,000. So what that means, is persons donot have access to the daily newspaper, that the Winnipeg MLA is going to have a much It is necessaryto insure and addan announcement closer contact, the ability to go door to door, for to the public of any zoning change by the example, the ability to speak personally to their 115 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

constituents, than will the new Winnipeg city ought not to have a say in urban reform, nor would councillor. I ever want to assume thatas an urban member, that I wondered ifyou had some reflections on that, for I do not have a say in agricultural policy, that I cannot political life in Manitoba, or perhaps more speak to a bill of the Legislature that deals with rural specifically for the relationship between the bonds, or with hydro development in the North. province and thecity. We are all here to represent a community and a Ms. Smith: I think it is wonderfulthat the MLAs will community of interests. I prefer the wider, broader have 20,000 and will have more access to the approach to decision making and input into the people, but it is working backward to eliminate the legislative process ratherthan the more narrow one size of City Council. There are two different things that is implicit in your brief. here, from what I see. Madam Chairman: Ms. Smith, did you wish to It is necessary to give the MLAs much more comment? access to the people and the people much more Ms. Smith: Itis not that the rural MLAs should not accessto their elected representatives, but it is also have a voice within the province. It is just saying necessary not to change that access in regard to that their jurisdictions are primarily rural. That is City Council. their primary concern, and while they have the right, City Council is important about the bread and and a democratic right, to have an opinion, it should butter issues, about the everyday things. It is be that the impetus should come from the urban necessary to have the people access their city MLAs. councillors. If you cut back the number of city Mr. Carr: With respect, I disagree. My jurisdiction councillors, you will cut back the access. as an MLA is the provinceof Manitoba. I am elected Mr. Carr: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would just by the people of Crescentwoodto be a legislator for like to make one point and thank you for your the province of Manitoba, which is my jurisdiction. presentation. So is the member from Turtle Mountain. If he were to consider his responsibility to be only to those You talk about a rural-dominated government. I 15,000 or 20,000 people who elect him, we would think the record should show that the Liberal Party have chaos here. and the Progressive Conservative Party, which do not agree very often with one another, on this issue We would have rural against urban. We would happen to be of one mind. All seven members of have north against south. We would have suburb our caucus come from thecity of Winnipeg. against inner city. How could we possibly seek to legislate in the interests ofthe province if we were I want to make another point, maybe a more so narrow and parochial in our responsibility and our important one. That is, implicit in what you say, is views that we were able to shut out the wider thatrural members of the Legislature ought to have constituency of the province, which is really the no voice in urban reform. That is akin to saying that geographic area which we are all elected to serve? a member of WinnipegCity Council from Transcona ought not to have a voice in what happens in I think it is a very important point. I do not mean Elmwood, or in River Heights, and that is one of the to prolong the debate, but I think that point has to be very reasons that our party supports municipal made. reform. Madam Chairman: Are there furtherquestions ? If While I represent the people from Crescentwood, not, thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. I have a responsibility as a member of the Smith. Legislature, as a legislator to pass laws which affect Mrs. Julia Boon. Goodmorning. Mrs. Boon. You the people of Lynn Lake or Thompson or Killarney. may proceed. Your presentation has been The fact that the people whom I represent are from distributed to members ofthe committee. urban Winnipeg ought not to disqualify me for Mrs. Julia Boon (Private Citizen): Thank you, having an opinion on my province which I am Madam Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, I am elected to serve. here to share my opinion, and I will start with an

So I would not want to leave alone the implication English saying that "toomany cooks spoilthe soup. w in your brief that rural members of the Legislature If one takes into consideration the city's population July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 116

English saying that "toomany cooksspoil the soup." Thank you for your patience, Mr. Marshall. I If one takes into consideration the city's population believe all members of the committee now have distribution compared to other large cities, there are received a copy of your presentation. You may too many councillors-297 proceed. A large City Council does not mean that citizens Mr. George Marshall (Private Citizen): Thank are well represented. The more wards there are, you, Madam Chairman, members of committee. I the more competition, antagonism and parochialism will just briefly go through my history. It may not be there is. The decision-making process becomes relevant to the committee, but it may give some lengthy and difficult because of the cumbersome understanding as to how I have formedmy views. size of council. A team approach?-1 do not think I am a graduate of Daniel Mac. I hold a Certificate that there is a team approach. in Management from the , a Bachelor of Artsfrom the University ofWinnipeg in When today there so many unemployed political science andeconomics, a Master of Public and immigrants as well, when the Affairsdegree from the University of Manitoba. I am welfare system is swollen up to the point that it will a graduate of Francais Oral at College universitaire burst pretty soon, it is time for councillors-notonly de Saint-Boniface. the councillors, but all of us-to become aware of the real situation of Winnipegand gracefully accept In my political experience, I was an alderman from the reduction of the size of council. A smaller 1 966 to 1971 andwhat is relevant about that is I may council, in my opinion, will manage the civic affairs perhaps be the only person appearing before more efficiently. This is all I have to say. Thank committee who has experience in a suburban you. council prior to Unicity and on Winnipeg City Council itself. MadamChairman: Thank you, Mrs. Boon. Would I was a school trustee in the Transcona­ you be prepared to entertain questions if there are Springfield School Division. I was a table officer any? with MAST; a member of the Nicholls commission Mrs.Boon: Yes, to the best of my ability. on Education Finance and I was a member of City Madam Chairman: Thank you. No questions. Council from 1986 to 1989. Thank you for your presentation. Number 27, Mr. Again, further background-! was born in David Brown; No. 28, Mr. Mike O'Shaughnessy;No. Winnipeg's west end, of Scottish and Icelandic 29, Mr. Gordon Mackie; No. 30, Mr. Bernie WoHe; parents. My grandfather on my mother's side, I No. 31, Mr. G. Hewitt; No. 32, Dr. Jim Shapiro. understand, was a sea captainworking north outof Iceland. I did not think anything was north of I understandthere are now people in attendance whose names I called earlier, so I will revert backto Iceland. My father and his father before him were shipbuilders at Glasgow on Clyde, Newcastle on the list. I also understandthat we have an additional Tyne and at Belfast where my fatherwas born. I can presenter wishing to make presentation whose say with some truth that when the Icelandic fishing name is on the bottomof the list, but I will revert back fleet takes on the British navy,that our family has a now to callingthe people that were not here when I stake on both sides. called earlier. The point of all this is, that unlike my ancestors, I Number one-1 see, and I believe Mr. George was born in the inner city. I grew up in the innercity. Marshall is now present. I would just like to remind I was educated in the inner city. I hold one of my all those sitting in the audience who wish to make degrees from the downtown university. Although I presentation thatthis committee will recess at 1 2:30. represented a suburban area in local government Our normal sitting time in the morning is 10to 12:30 for 26 years-and I still cannot believe it-1 need no because we are still in session. It is expected that lecture from others, whether they were born here or this committee will reconvenethis evening, and I am whether they were not, with respect to the inner city. sorry, butat this point I do not have the specifictime. I have always felt that downtown belongs to We are suggesting perhaps, same as last evening, everyone. This is a feeling that in both my view and seven o'clock. my experience is shared by the vast majority of • (1220) Winnipeggers. Perhaps a notable exception are 117 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

some localpoliticians who, caught up in a parochial 7. that the indemnities of council and the model of governance, are prepared, and I quote administrative support to councillors should be directly, to make a deal with the devil if it will help determined by the councilitself; my ward. 8. that pie-shaped wards should be rejected, Recommendation No. 1-again, based on my and instead wards should meet the social, cultural, past experience: This committee should support historical and natural features of the city; and confirm the minister's intent: 9. councillors should be elected in 1. to strengthen leadership; single-member wards; 2. to encourage long-term vision; 1 0. no more councillors should be elected than is 3. to enhance and to encourage a strategic necessary to staff the model that the minister has city-wide planning process; chosen; 4. to simplify an unwieldy decision-making 11. that the community committee should not be process; a legislative mandate butshould instead be a choice of the council; 5. to restore the direction of the civic government to the elected officials; I want to dwell on that for a moment. In the five years when I was a memberof a suburban council, 6. to respond to the need for clearly defined we had the power to levy andwe were only 4 percent authority, responsibility and accountability; of Winnipeg. 7. to clarify public access to the process of In that five-year period in the run up to Unicity, we government; built the Roland MichenerIndoor Arena; we built the 8. to preserve equitable representation that is Centennial Swimming Pool; we built the police appropriate, that meets functional needs and that station presently used by District 4; we put in $5 observes the social, cultural, historic and natural million worth of storm sewers; we created the CN features of the city; and Industrial Park; and we attracted the Freshwater fish 9. to correct a civic structure that presently plant to Transcona. There are only two in Canada. engenders and rewards parochialism. One is in Nova Scotia and it is saltwater. We also contributed to the Centennial Hall complex which Recommendation No. 2: The committee should was provinciallydriven and the Centennial Concert support and confirm existing legislation and Hall which was Metro driven. We also contributed proposed legislation changeswhich will realize and to the Pan-Am Games. That was in a five-year complement the minister's intent: period and we were 4 percent of Winnipeg. 1. that the mayor be elected atlar ge; Compare that to today's committee. They cannot 2. that the mayor should appoint the standing even change a stop sign. committee chairs; If you want to meet this model, do you want to 3. that the council should be elected for three have councillors sitting for 10, 12 and 14 hours, all years; night, listening to somebody about a board in somebody's back fence? I mean, is that realistic 4. that the mayor should be the chair of council use of time? If your intent is to get the councillors in and that the role of the presiding officer should be front of the process, to get in front of the city, then dropped; I also believethat the deputy mayor should for God's sakesdo not hang them up in a community chair the executive policy committee,but I will leave committee, unless they want to be there. If they thatto the council to decide. want to be there, that is up to them, they are 5. that the internal political structure of the responsible. council should be determined by the elected council Do not hang them up in a community committee. which has the ultimate responsibility to the people For God's sakes, do not do that; please, do not do for the operation of thecouncil ; that. Do not tie them up there. They come back to 6. that the internal administrative structure of the work the next day and they are dog tired. They city should be determined by the elected council, might have had three-you guys know what dog which has the ultimate responsibility of the people tired is all about. They come up there andthey have for theoperation of the city; had three hours sleep, and you want them to run the July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 118

city. Come on. Let us be realistic. A community in looking with respect at the ones who were committee is a vestige of an old system that does prepared In the wards committee brief, they tend to not exist any more, and do not hang the council with offend, and even the 12 tends to offend. It goes it. Please do not hang them with it. across rivers and everything else. I know of no other municipality where the internal I think you would have to, of course, respect committee structure is determined by the election by population. You would have to move Legislature. I mean, name me one other some boundaries, but I really think there is a municipality in Manitoba whose internal structure is potential there to really enshrine the history of determined by the Legislature. I know none; no Winnipeg and create a model that better other municipality. complements the minister's intent. I believe as well, item 12, that 12 councillors * (1230)

should be elected, since this is the number of The Wards Committee-and probably nobody councillors that best complements both the else is going to say this-1 think they did one hell of minister's intent and the model of governance that a job considering they were chastised individually he has chosen. and collectively before theyeven started. There are You could simply separate the 12, hyphenate the two things that they finally decided, and they six hyphenated community committees and you obviously in the language they considered it very would end up with 12. You would not even have to deeply. One was the notion of community name them. The names would not have to be committee which they eventually recommended changed and they meet historically. Historically, against, which I agree with. I think that is not a Winnipeg began, Red River beganwith Assiniboia, compromise; that is a contradiction to the minister's the Kildonans and St. Boniface. Symbolically, the intent. I think the council should decide. flag and the historyof Winnipeg is Metro, and in 12 Finally, some of their best languages addresses municipalities you would have a city at whole at 12 councillorswhen theyare free, if anything, accept large and 12 wards. the conceptual idea of let us look at 12, and it I believe personally that the rivers should be looks-ff you look at the language that they use respected. I can understand Headingley. I can when they address 12 councillors. I think 15 again understand St Vital, St. Norbert. I can understand is a compromise, and I think that the minister's intent the Kildonans, but I think the rivers as features will better be realized by using 12 and by using-it should be respected. I think that three wards south can be done independently,of course, the lines can of the Assiniboine, five north of the Assiniboine and be drawn independently, but the terms ofrefe rence four east of the Red would represent to council all should encompass the six community committees kinds of opportunitiesto develop committeesto look as 12 wards and the three rivers as features. I think right inside what is happening in the city. that we would have a ward structure that will produce a council that is very much going to help There is nothing to precludea councillor at all from the city of Winnipeg. having a meeting as an MLA does with their own constituents. That is not a problem. One of the Finally, Recommendation 3-and I say this Metro Corporation methodologies was to have the without malice of any kind. I just got back from chair sit-and you could have the chair sit with the Calgary and it is a wonderful summer, and I really two former members of what-was a community sympathize withall of you people regardless of what committee at that time and you would have a party you belong to. This comes from my own beautiful three package that has some authority. experience and not from any political hangup. As You can have some people out there that can make an academic I am supposed to be objective, but this decisions, not people out there that you know they is historically what has happened. have to go through hierarchy of four or five people Recommendation No. 3: The committee should to have something happen. view thewell-in tended advice of our socialist friends If you want the council to be run by the elected and their journalistic sympathizers-that is typo, I people, please do not hang them up with a did this this morning-with healthyskeptic ism. community committee. I really think that 12 1. Our socialist friends preach community, but councillors will do the job better than 15. Because they are the ones who foisted Unicity on us in the 119 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

first place-the centralist act of a rural support the widening of Regent Avenue, a premier-against the will of thevast majority ofthe significant imposition on the city's debt load. This people of Winnipeg. contradiction, quite apparent to others, seems If you were at any of those meetings when they oblivious to our socialist friends. came around, I mean you want a war, you should 6. Our socialist friends consistently oppose new have been especially in the suburbs. private capital investment. Their first instinct is to 2. Our socialist friends preach openness and oppose. The city though requires a traditional 1.5 democracy, but they are the ones who gave us the to 2.5 percentgrowth to sustain abuoyant economy, Board of Commissioners structure of civic to assure that the increased costs required to run government. This nonelected administrative group the city will not be borne solely by existing meets weekly in secret. The mayor attends buthas assessment. Once again, socialist ideology is in no vote. A councillormay attendbut only on request conflict with economic reality. and even then only on a specific matter. When the 7. Our socialist friendssupport community based subject matter is completed the elected person is policing, but they are ones that took our police force required to leave. The public is, of course, absent. away from us when they formed Unicity in 1972. This legislated socialistmethodology is neither open We used to have six or eight cars. You know, we nor democratic. might see a car once in a while. Maybe they are 3. Our socialist friends oppose urban busy somewhere else, but do not tell me you support sprawl-that is theirterm and not mine. I was there. community-based policing when you tookmy police The guy that built our subdivisionwent broke, a guy force away. As a resident, that is a conflict in my by the name Kern, spelled with a "kw and therewas mind. no safety net. Another fellow by the name of Myles Finally, the only consistent thingin our socialist Robinson worked himself to death at 52. I was there. He would not even go for a game of goH. His friends' approach to city governance seems to be legacy is hundreds, indeed thousands,of affordable their own inconsistency. I say that without malice, houses that are now moving into their second but that has been my experience. generation. Finally, Madam Chairman, Mr. Minister, I want to All three of the elected socialistsin my area-the make the point to those who support the bill from councillor, the MLA and the M.P.-all live in whatever party, particularly of item 11, in subdevelopmentsthat I supported as a member of Recommendation 2, and also item 12, In council. Our socialist friends are entitled to their Recommendation 2. I really believe that item 11 in opinion, of course, but it would be helpful if they the proposed legislation is a contradiction to the practised what they preached. minister's intent. It is going to harass. It is going to negate. It is going to simply not fulfill the potential 4. Our socialist friends have an anti-corporate that the minister has laid on the table. I sincerely bent. I think they will admit that, and everything, believe that, and I hope that those who support the every prologue, everything that they say, it begins bill will look very hard at that. with a particular nonobjective anti-corporate bent. The city is the overall planning authority, and this is Secondly, it is much easier to meet in my view the model. The city is theoverall planning authority without distorting the model with 12 councillors. It and that is not a small thing, that is a big deal. The is much easier to meet the historical, the symbolic, city is theover all, but the capital investment and its the natural features and everythingelse of Winnipeg attendant risk are assumed by the private sector, with 12 councillors, and to do it simplistically. both corporate and individual. Here, socialist Always be simple if you can. Simply divide the ideology is in conflict with economic reality. If you existing six community committees into 12 wards, are against the guys who are going to make things let someone independently decide where the lines move, nothing is going to move. It is plain and are drawn, and I think with St. Boniface, St. Vital, St. simple. James-Assiniboia, Fort Garry. I mean, God,we are 5. Our socialist friends oppose the city's level of talking about the original. The old fort is named, the capital borrowing-drunken sailors is the term I old railroad is named, the three original often hear-but theelected socialists in my area all municipalities are named, the French parishes are July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 120

named. I do not know, I would like to have that fall Mr.Mar shall: Thank you. in my lap. Madam Chairman: The hour being past 12:30 I do, in conclusion, supportthe minister's intent, p.m., this committee will reconvene-my support his legislation and ask in particular those understanding is because the announcement has who support the bill to take a very hard look at not been made in the House relative to the time this Recommendation 2, items 11 and 12. Thank you, committee will sit this evening, I am being a little Madam Chairman. ambiguous, but I believe it is the understanding and Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Marshall. Are agreement of this committeethat theywill meet at 7 you prepared to entertain questions if there are any? p.m. this evening, in this room. Are there questions of the committee to Mr. Committeerise. Marshall? No. Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Marshall. COMMnTEE ROSE AT: 12:36 p.m.