House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
Ninth Report of Session 2008–09
Report, together with formal minutes, oral and written evidence
Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 30 June 2009
HC 348 Published on 7 July 2009 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £0.00
The Welsh Affairs Committee
The Welsh Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales (including relations with the National Assembly for Wales).
Current membership Dr Hywel Francis MP (Labour, Aberavon) (Chairman) Mr David T.C. Davies MP (Conservative, Monmouth) Ms Nia Griffith MP (Labour, Llanelli) Mrs Siân C. James MP (Labour, Swansea East) Mr David Jones MP (Conservative, Clwyd West) Mr Martyn Jones MP (Labour, Clwyd South) Rt Hon Alun Michael MP (Labour and Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth) Mr Albert Owen MP (Labour, Ynys Môn) Mr Mark Pritchard MP (Conservative, The Wrekin) Mr Mark Williams MP (Liberal Democrat, Ceredigion) Mr Hywel Williams MP (Plaid Cymru, Caernarfon)
Powers The committee is one of the Departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk.
Publications The reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/welsh_affairs_committee.cfm.
Committee staff The current staff of the Committee is Dr Sue Griffiths (Clerk), Georgina Holmes- Skelton (Second Clerk), Judy Goodall (Inquiry Manager), Anwen Rees (Inquiry Manager), Carys Jones (Committee Specialist), Christine Randall (Senior Committee Assistant), Annabel Goddard (Committee Assistant), Tes Stranger (Committee Support Assistant) and Rebecca Jones (Media Officer).
Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Welsh Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 6189 and the Committee’s email address is [email protected].
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 1
Contents
Report Page
Summary 3
1 Introduction 6 Background 6 Introduction of the proposed Order 6 The LCO process in this instance 7 The Welsh Affairs Committee’s inquiry 9
2 Purpose of the proposed Order 9 The proposed Order and existing Welsh Assembly Government policy 10 Current legislative constraints 10
3 Scope of the proposed Order 13 Demand for further legislation 13 Support for the transference of competence 14 The need for clarity 15 Scope of Matter 20.1 17 Use of categories 18 Impact on the private sector 19 “Services to the public” 22 Enactment or prerogative instrument (paragraph (c)) 25 Persons overseeing the regulation of a profession or industry (paragraph (f))27 “Public money amounting to £200,000 or more” (paragraph (e)) 28 Gas, water or electricity services (paragraph (h) (i)) 32 Telecommunications (paragraph (h) (iv)) 33 Railway services and other transport (paragraph (h) (vi)) 35 Broadcasting 36 Ministers of the Crown and Ministerial Departments 37 Conclusions of the Assembly scrutiny committee 37 Matter 20.1: conclusion 39
4 Terms used in the proposed Order 40 “Freedom” to use the Welsh language (Matter 20.2) 40 “Official status” 42 Enacting words 44
5 Conclusion 44
Conclusions and recommendations 46
List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament 57
Formal Minutes 53
2 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
Witnesses 54
List of written evidence 55
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Summary
The Government of Wales Act 2006 introduced a procedure whereby the National Assembly for Wales can bring forward proposals which would extend the Assembly’s lawmaking powers by way of Legislative Competence Orders in Council. The Orders do not themselves change the general law for Wales—they pave the way to subsequent ‘Measures’ to change the law applying to Wales within the devolved areas of legislative competence. This proposed Order would enable the National Assembly for Wales to make new legislative provision for promoting and facilitating the use of the Welsh language and the freedom of persons to use Welsh in their dealings with others if they so wish. It also lists the categories of bodies that the Assembly would be able to make subject to future duties to provide Welsh language services in Matter 20.1. Those upon whom duties would actually be imposed would be a matter for Assembly legislation, but must fall within the categories contained in the Order.
We consider that a good case has been made that the National Assembly for Wales should have the ability to modernise and bring consistency to legislation relating to the use of the Welsh language. The transfer of competence appears, in this regard, logical and appropriate. It will locate responsibility for the Welsh language in the social context where it is rooted and where its effects will be most evident. Support for this principle was clear in our inquiry, but concerns were expressed by some witnesses about the way in which the scope of the draft Order is currently defined. We believe that these criticisms reflect practical drafting issues rather than serious or significant constitutional or policy differences.
The draft Order brings into scope bodies receiving more than £200,000 of public money in a year. The principle that organisations benefiting from substantial public funds should fulfil public responsibilities is an appropriate one. However, this threshold, which would represent a large sum for some organisations and be less significant for others, has no clear relevance to the service received by customers or the public and is not based on any clear principle or analysis. It seems instead to have been chosen more or less at random. In addition, the types of public money that would qualify a body for inclusion are not clearly set out. Other concerns about the scope of the proposed Order include:
• Utilities and telecommunications are specified in the LCO, but not banks or insurance services. The basis of the distinction between the different bodies which are regarded as key “public services” is not clear.
• We are not convinced that the need for energy production and transmission services to be included in the proposed Order has been demonstrated.
• We understand that it is not the intention of the Welsh Assembly Government to impose duties on smaller bodies, such as NGOs, charities, organisations established by Royal Charter and companies with small numbers of employees, but many such bodies fall within the scope as the Order is currently drafted.
• Whilst we received evidence on the work of language commissioners elsewhere, we did not receive more detailed evidence on the role of the proposed language commissioner
4 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
in Wales. We suggest that it would be helpful for the Wales Office to invite the Welsh Assembly Government to clarify its intentions in this respect as soon as possible and in any event before it publishes the Measure, and to indicate the process of consultation it will use to win for the language commissioner the sort of public support enjoyed by other commissioners such as the Children’s Commissioner and the Commissioner for Older People.
We are of the view that powers to make legislation relating to the Welsh language should be transferred to the Assembly, but only on the basis of legislative precision. This would benefit both the Assembly, by providing a solid legislative foundation for its Measures, and those who will be subject to the legislation, by providing them with clarity and a degree of certainty. In order to achieve the Welsh Assembly Government’s stated objective to provide consistency of service for the consumer and public, a level playing field for business, and fairness in terms of the impact on a variety of businesses and other organisations of varying sizes, we recommend that the draft Order that is eventually presented to the House for approval should have a much more clearly defined scope.
It is for the Welsh Assembly Government to propose draft legislation, which we then scrutinise, but we have given some consideration to how the scope of the proposed Order can be improved. We suggest that a more sophisticated and appropriate way of dealing with the issues of definition would be for this Order to contain clear principles against which the Assembly Measures can be tested. One way to achieve this would be for the Welsh Assembly Government to insert in this draft Order tests that have to be met by any Measure subsequent to this LCO, rather than trying to insert definitions themselves in the text. These might include a test of reasonableness, a test of proportionality, and a consideration of the cost to demonstrate that the application of any Measure to particular bodies or organisations will, in the long term, provide a cost-effective benefit to the public in terms of the use of the Welsh language. This would mean that instead of the Order defining those who will be affected by subsequent Measures there is greater clarity of purpose and definition of what is to be achieved, leaving it to any individual Measure to provide a definition that satisfies those tests. This would fit better with the principles of devolution and with the LCO process than depending on a list of categories, whether that list were to be the rather unsatisfactory list contained in this draft or even a better-defined list.
We hope that Ministers will accept our recommendation that the proposed Order should be redrafted in the ways outlined above. However, should the Welsh Assembly Government decide to preserve the categories proposed in the current draft, our evidence suggests that some elements would prove more controversial than others. There is little debate over the case for including public authorities and Crown/Ministerial bodies (with the consent of the Secretary of State) within the scope of the Order. Witnesses recognised that the legislative framework governing the Welsh language duties imposed on such bodies is acting as a constraint and needs to be updated, for example to allow for better redress procedures. In addition, there is broad agreement concerning the inclusion of bodies which provide services on behalf of the state, although this may include some relatively small bodies and further consideration needs to be given to ensuring that any requirements do not prove excessively burdensome.
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In contrast, some witnesses raised significant concerns about the way in which the proposed categories attempt to define the range of private sector bodies to which future laws may apply. We were concerned that, as currently drafted, the proposed Order could give rise to laws which might be incoherent, inconsistent and open to challenge. If the Wales Office and Welsh Assembly Government were to pursue the current list approach, they should consider first presenting an Order dealing with the relatively uncontroversial matters and returning to the wider scope when a more persuasive conceptual framework for legislation has been advanced. That second stage might be pursued fairly quickly, but if the approach we recommend were to be adopted there would be no need for such a two- stage process and a more complete devolution of legislative competence would be achieved sooner. We believe that a two-stage process should be avoided and we strongly urge the Wales Office and the Welsh Assembly Government to adopt the principles set out in our Report.
6 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
1 Introduction
Background 1. The Government of Wales Act 2006 introduced a procedure whereby the National Assembly for Wales can bring forward proposals which would extend the Assembly’s lawmaking powers by way of Legislative Competence Orders in Council. The Orders do not themselves change the general law for Wales—they pave the way to subsequent ‘Measures’ to change the law applying to Wales within the devolved areas of legislative competence. They do this by adding new “Matters” to the “Fields” of legislative competence set out in Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006.
2. These proposals for draft Orders may be introduced by the Welsh Assembly Government, by committees of the National Assembly, or by individual Assembly Members (chosen by ballot). They are subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by committees of the Assembly appointed for this purpose and by committees of the House of Commons and the House of Lords. Whitehall agreement (“clearance”) is a necessary prerequisite before a proposed Order is referred by the Secretary of State for Wales to each House at this pre-legislative scrutiny stage.
3. Following the pre-legislative scrutiny stage, the National Assembly may agree an actual draft Order. This may take account of committee recommendations (from either its own committees or Westminster) arising from pre-legislative scrutiny. The draft Order may then be laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State for Wales—and he or she may still decline to do so at this stage. If the draft Order is laid, it is considered by both Houses of Parliament, and may be debated by them. Draft Orders at this stage are not amendable and can only be approved or rejected. If approved by both Houses, and once it is given the royal assent in the Privy Council, direct law-making powers are devolved to the Assembly within the scope of the Order in Council. The Assembly can then make laws in the form of Assembly Measures, which need to be passed by the National Assembly but which require no further approval by either Whitehall or Parliament.
Introduction of the proposed Order 4. If adopted, the proposed Order relating to the Welsh Language would expand Field 20 (Welsh language) of Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 by adding two new matters. Proposed Matter 20.1 deals with “Promoting or facilitating the use of the Welsh language; and the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality”. Proposed Matter 20.2 relates to “the freedom of persons wishing to use the Welsh language to do so with one another (including any limitations upon it)”.1
5. The proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 was laid before the National Assembly for Wales by the Minister for Heritage, Alun Ffred Jones AM on 2 February 2009. The LCO was referred to the Assembly’s Permanent Legislation Committee No. 5, which formally accepted the invitation to
1 The proposed Order and Explanatory Memorandum were published as Pre-legislative scrutiny of the proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009, 9 February 2009, Cm 7544.
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 7
undertake pre-legislative scrutiny of the proposed Order on 10 February 2009. The Committee issued a call for written evidence and subsequently held eight evidence sessions and published its report on 5 June.
6. The proposed Order, together with an Explanatory Memorandum by the Welsh Assembly Government, was published as a Command Paper by the Wales Office on 9 February 2009. The Secretary of State wrote to the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee and to the Select Committee on the Constitution, House of Lords, inviting these committees to undertake pre-legislative scrutiny. The Welsh Affairs Committee formally accepted this invitation on 10 February 2009.
The LCO process in this instance 7. Before a proposed LCO is referred to us for pre-legislative scrutiny, a process of negotiation between the Wales Office and the Welsh Assembly Government takes place in order to arrive at an agreed text for the Order. This has come to be known as “Whitehall clearance”. As originally proposed, the LCO scrutiny process envisaged that LCOs would be cleared with Whitehall departments before being published and referred simultaneously to an Assembly Committee and to the Welsh Affairs Committee, but this Committee has previously commented on the benefit of sequential consideration of LCOs. If the changes suggested by the Assembly Committee have been incorporated into a revised draft by the time the proposed Order is considered at Westminster, this means that we are likely to be scrutinising the considered view of the Assembly as a whole rather than the initial proposal from the Welsh Assembly Government and this in itself is likely to improve both the process and the outcome.
8. On this occasion, the proposed Order was referred to the Welsh Affairs Committee shortly after it was referred to the Assembly’s Permanent Legislation Committee No. 5. As a result, our inquiry has run in parallel with that of the Assembly Committee. This has enabled us to consult informally with our counterparts in the National Assembly for Wales in the course of our inquiry. Following the model that has proven successful during our consideration of other recent LCOs, our Chairman held an informal meeting with the Chair of the Assembly Committee, Mark Isherwood AM, at the start of the inquiry. This was followed by a meeting in Cardiff Bay between members of both Committees, after oral evidence sessions had been completed. This meeting allowed us to benefit from the perspectives of the Assembly Committee members and their reflections on the evidence they had received, before agreeing our final report. This appears to have been an appropriate approach for this particular Order but it would not have been appropriate for some other LCOs and we will continue to approach proposed Orders on a case-by-case basis.
9. We are pleased that our scrutiny of the proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order has taken place in co-operation with Assembly Legislation Committee No. 5. Our exchange of information has proven productive and we look forward to continuing good relationships with Assembly committees in future.
10. The proposed LCO on the Welsh Language was simultaneously referred to this Committee and to the National Assembly for Wales, with the explicit admission that the
8 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
Wales Office and Welsh Assembly Government had not reached full agreement on the text of the published Order. The Secretary of State for Wales said that the publication of a draft Order marked the beginning of a period of consultation, allowing “a transparent public debate on the implications of the proposed Order”. He added, “The detail of this draft Legislative Competence Order is not set in stone. Everyone in Wales now has the opportunity to influence meaningfully the progress of this latest made-in-Wales legislation and I would urge them to do so”.2 Speaking in the St David’s Day debate on Welsh Affairs in the House of Commons, shortly after laying the proposed Order before Parliament, the Secretary of State for Wales reaffirmed this view and announced that the Wales Office would be conducting its own consultation on the proposed Order. He said “I want to see the biggest public debate on the Welsh language of recent years, and to hear from all sectors of society in Wales—the public sector, business, the voluntary sector and the general public—to ensure that the draft order meets the needs of the people of Wales”.3
11. The Wales Office consultation closed on 17 April 2009 and a number of the written submissions were passed onto the Committee. We understand that we did not receive documents which were submitted to the Wales Office in confidence. This means that the Committee has not seen all the available evidence, which is an unsatisfactory state of affairs. Giving evidence at our final session on 27 April, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office, Mr Wayne David MP, stated that the Wales Office had concerns about some aspects of the drafting of the proposed Order, which he thought “might be vague or interpreted in a way which perhaps was not intended by the Welsh Assembly Government”.4 He concluded that:
We certainly are in agreement with the approach and support the bid being put forward by the Welsh Assembly Government. We do have some issues ourselves which we would like to discuss further. We are particularly planning to give considerable thought and care to the comments which we have received, but also the deliberations of this Committee as well.5
12. In the case of the Welsh Language LCO, the Whitehall “clearance” process was not completed before the proposed Order was referred to us for scrutiny. While it can be helpful if agreement on the wording of proposed Orders has been secured before referral for pre-legislative scrutiny, we welcome the openness of the process on this occasion and the frankness of Ministerial witnesses. It is possible that there will be significant changes to the wording of the draft Order after the pre-legislative scrutiny period and should this be the case, the Committee would wish to return to the draft Order to give consideration to any substantial changes that have been made.
2 Wales Office press notice, 2 February 2009. http://www.walesoffice.gov.uk/2009/02/02/time-to-consult-on-the-proposed- welsh-language-order-says-paul-murphy/ 3 HC Deb, 26 February 2009, col. 414. 4 Q 351 5 Q 347
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The Welsh Affairs Committee’s inquiry 13. Our task was to examine the scope and appropriateness of the proposed Order under the terms of the Government of Wales Act 2006. We considered whether the proposed Order is in the spirit and within the scope of the devolution settlement; the extent to which there is a demand for legislation which might follow the adoption of the proposed Order; and whether the use of the Legislative Competence Order in Council procedure is more appropriate in this instance than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill.6
14. In the course of the inquiry, we took oral evidence on four occasions, including from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office and the Welsh Assembly Government Minister for Heritage. We also received a substantial number of written submissions, which are published with this Report. We are grateful for the assistance of our specialist advisers, Dr Maeve Conrick, Dean of Arts, Department of French, University College Cork; Dr Diarmait Mac Giolla Chriost, Senior Lecturer, School of Welsh, Cardiff University; and Professor Keith Patchett, Emeritus Professor of Law, University of Wales. 2 Purpose of the proposed Order
15. The background to the proposed Order is set out in the accompanying Explanatory Memorandum. In outline, the proposed Order is designed to enable the National Assembly to make new legislative provision for promoting and facilitating the use of the Welsh language and the treatment of Welsh and English on the basis of equality; and with respect to the freedom of persons to use Welsh in their dealings with others if they so wish. A key objective is to enable the National Assembly to build on the foundations currently set by the Welsh Language Act 1993, which imposed duties on specific public bodies to prepare schemes giving effect to the principle that, in the conduct of public business in Wales, English and Welsh should be treated on the basis of equality. The Welsh Assembly Government suggests that practical consequences of the provisions of the proposed Order could include “marketing, providing support for organisations, developing ICT tools and so forth within any given sector, echoing and building on the range of functions carried out, at present, by the Welsh Language Board”.7
16. We did not ourselves focus on the issue of access to public services in the English language within Wales, but we note that the Assembly committee did examine this issue and that it reported the Minister’s comments to its members that this should come within the responsibilities of a language commissioner. It appears to us that the provision for “the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality” within the LCO would enable a commissioner to consider the circumstances in which the Welsh language, must, may or may not be used, providing a balanced approach which will be reassuring to some who remain concerned about the proposals. However, we would note that the text of the LCO may change as a result of pre-legislative scrutiny, and that a definitive view on this
6 On 11 February 2009 the Committee issued a press notice setting out the scope of its inquiry and inviting written submissions from interested parties. 7 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 25.
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matter will only be possible once the draft Order has been laid before Parliament in its final form.8
The proposed Order and existing Welsh Assembly Government policy 17. The Explanatory Memorandum, provided by the Welsh Assembly Government, sets out the policy background:
The Welsh Assembly Government’s National Action Plan for a Bilingual Wales, Iaith Pawb 2003, stated that it wanted Wales to be a truly bilingual nation. This was not defined as implying that everyone in Wales should be able to speak both Welsh and English. It was defined as a country where people can choose to live their lives through the medium of either Welsh or English, and where the presence of the two languages is a visible and audible source of pride and strength. Iaith Pawb reflected what has been the policy of successive governments—at Wales and UK level—to support and encourage the use of the language in all aspects of life in Wales. The scope of the proposed LCO reflects this approach to ensure that the language can continue to be a prominent and vibrant part of people’s everyday lives.9
18. In oral evidence, Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government, outlined his view that the National Assembly for Wales was the logical place for legislation regarding the Welsh language to be made. He said:
There is agreement cross-party in the National Assembly for the transfer of the powers to legislate for the Welsh language from Westminster to the National Assembly—there is agreement on that and I think we should see the process, of course, as a part of the objective of the Government to create a bilingual Wales and that is the statement that was made in the document in 2003 which had cross-party support for it with the same intention of creating a bilingual Wales.10
19. We agree that the proposed Order clearly develops and is consistent with previously announced Welsh Assembly Government policy.
Current legislative constraints 20. In the Explanatory Memorandum, the Welsh Assembly Government states that the proposed Order is needed because the Welsh Language Act 1993 is no longer providing an adequate legislative framework. It advances a number of arguments to support this view. Firstly, under Part II of the 1993 Act, the Welsh Language Board has only limited powers to investigate and deal with alleged breaches of language schemes. The submission from the Board explains that “under the present legislation, those circumstances in which the Board can make recommendation are restricted, as are our powers to enforce change in the
8 It is our understanding that the application of fairness and common sense in this way would be intra vires because it would relate to the treatment of Welsh under Field 20 whereas if the Commissioner were to be asked to regulate the use of English per se that would be ultra vires because there is not a Field giving the Assembly control over the English language. The suggestion by the Assembly Committee appears to be aimed at making sure that fairness and equality work for both languages and that is a very positive message. 9 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 8. 10 Q 288
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light of those recommendations […] neither members of the public nor the Board have a right to take legal steps against public bodies for failing to provide a Welsh Language service”.11
21. The proposed Order would allow the National Assembly to legislate for additional arrangements to deal with complaints about bodies failing to comply with their Welsh language commitments. These would be created by future Measures. No power is given by the LCO to impose any new sanctions following from the upholding of a complaint, and the level of redress which might be envisaged in a Measure is not described. However, in evidence, the Minister said that compliance would be overseen by a Welsh language commissioner:
…what has been said clearly in the One Wales document is that the Government would, of course, wish to see the establishment of the role of a Commissioner, would wish to give the rights to receive services through the medium of Welsh and provide equal status to both Welsh and English. The exact nature of the role of the Commissioner is something to be discussed further, but certainly you would expect that a person or a Commission would have some role in enforcement, of course.12
It is certainly the case that major progress has been made in the past ten years through co- operation and an environment that is encouraging to the Welsh language rather than through compulsion. Catalan witnesses clearly felt that sanctions were secondary to the development of a positive culture of acceptance and support for the language.13 Compulsion and enforcement need to be secondary to a continuation of consensual progress and used only as a last resort. Clarity of expectation, reflected in legislation, should be the primary route for further progress.
22. In addition, the Welsh Assembly Government states that Assembly Measures are needed to ensure that a standard level of Welsh language service is available across different services. The Minister told us that:
There is a lack of consistency within areas with certain bodies or companies included and others not included within sectors … I would also say that with the current Act, the way in which the Welsh language is promoted predominantly is through Welsh language schemes and even though they have done excellent work, I think more flexibility is needed in the future in terms of how we promote the Welsh language and perhaps we need those other methods. I think we need new powers in order to do that.14
23. Finally, legislative competence would allow the Assembly more flexibility to respond to changing circumstances. Ms Meri Huws, Chair of the Welsh Language Board said that significant demographic and linguistic changes had taken place in Wales since the passage of the 1993 Act:
11 Ev 118 12 Q 294 13 Q 189 14 Q 289
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We have seen a significant change in the census which was reflected in the 2001 census in terms of the numbers of Welsh speakers; there has been an increase from 18.7% up to 20.8% per cent of the population of Wales. We have also seen a significant change in terms of choice of language medium for education. During the decade between 1996 and 2006 there was an increase of 10,000 young people in the Welsh medium education system; today there are 82,000 young people receiving their education through the medium of Welsh so the linguistic landscape of Wales has changed. The Board also feels that there has been a change of attitude in Wales and it is appropriate therefore for us to reconsider a piece of legislation which was purposeful and extremely strong.15
Mr Hywel James of Parents for Welsh Medium Education also highlighted legislative developments since 1993, for example “in terms of definition of ‘public bodies’. We have had legislation like the Human Rights Act, which defines what exactly a public body is. We can also see utilities like gas moving into the private sector and we think it is important that, as public funding is used, this legislation should come into that”.16
24. We note, in passing, that there is in fact considerable debate about the scope of the definition of a public authority under the Human Rights Act.17 More recently, the Equality Bill, currently before Parliament, includes a list of bodies intended to be covered by the legislation. This list may be amended by regulations by a Minister of the Crown, or by Welsh Ministers in relation to Wales, by adding (or removing) further public authorities.18 The Bill defines ‘public authorities’ as bodies having “functions of a public nature”. This phrase is also used in the Welsh Language Act 1993.
25. The Explanatory Memorandum outlines how the proposed Order will allow the Welsh Assembly Government to respond to changes since 1993 and into the future:
In many areas mechanisms for delivering services to the public in Wales have changed since 1993. The framework set by the Welsh Language Act 1993 does not enable these changes to be taken into account in a consistent way. Legislative competence in relation to promoting and facilitating the use of the Welsh language in Wales would enable the Assembly to bring the legislative framework up to date and provide a consistent basis for improving access to services through the medium of Welsh.19
26. We agree that a good case has been made that the National Assembly for Wales should have the ability to modernise and bring consistency to legislation relating to the use of the Welsh language. There is broad support for the National Assembly to have the ability to legislate for arrangements such as the establishment of a language commissioner and new redress procedures to deal with bodies failing to comply with their Welsh language commitments. Whilst we received evidence on the work of
15 Q 109 16 Q 54 17 See, for example, Ninth Report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Session 2006-07, The Meaning of Public Authority under the Human Rights Act, HC 410. 18 Equality Bill (HC (2008-09) 85-I) Part 1, S1. 19 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 9.
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language commissioners elsewhere, we did not receive more detailed evidence on the intentions of the Welsh Assembly Government as to the role of the proposed language commissioner in Wales and the extent of the sanctions he or she would be empowered to apply for non-compliance with language legislation. We suggest that it would be helpful for the Wales Office to invite the Welsh Assembly Government to clarify its intentions in this respect as soon as possible and in any event before it publishes the Measure, and to indicate the process of consultation it will use to win for the language commissioner the sort of public support enjoyed by other commissioners such as the Children’s Commissioner and the Commissioner for Older People. In using these powers, we would urge legislators to recognise that the creation of a culture of positive support and practical use of the language must be the main goal. 3 Scope of the proposed Order
Demand for further legislation 27. The Welsh Assembly Government has identified several areas in which it considers that legislation is needed. In evidence, both the Minister and the Chair of the Welsh Language Board referred to a recent opinion poll conducted by the BBC which showed that 47% of the population of Wales favoured additional language laws whereas 29% felt that there was no need for legislation.20 They argued that the result of this poll was one more indicator of the majority support in Wales for the need for additional legislation. Both witnesses acknowledged that a single opinion poll could not provide conclusive evidence of the views of the Welsh public in general. Their case was that there is majority support for further legislation on the Welsh language and that those opposed are substantially a minority and that by a wide margin.
28. In its report, the Assembly scrutiny committee highlighted the importance of maintaining and reinforcing a consensus of support for the Welsh language which extends usage in practice. The Committee quotes the evidence of the Catalan Government in which it states:
Although there is a legal framework in place, the Catalan language is mainly promoted in the private sector by consensus and collaboration. The introduction of services and information in Catalan is being considered by most companies as a business opportunity that gives them a competitive advantage over their competitors.21
The committee goes on to report that the Catalan Government:
… explained that they adopt a two pronged approach: legislation on the one hand, and collaboration and consensus building on the other. They also explained the value of having a legislative framework within which to base the dialogue with the private sector They described the consensus building process as a ‘step by step’ process. The
20 Q 111 21 National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009, Committee Report, June 2009, paragraph 3.75.
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Catalan Government’s policy is to avoid imposing sanctions and to offer support to businesses to comply with the legislation … in ‘99.9% of cases’ the problem is solved if enterprises make use of the tools provided by the Catalan Government.22
We commend this approach which fits well with the evidence we received in our own hearings: laws make it clear what is required and avoid any danger that promoting day-to- day use of the language is seen as ‘non essential’, but legislation only provides the framework, and is not in itself the action that will engage people and make a real difference.
29. This approach is reflected in the evidence from BT which, as a company, has been a strong and practical supporter of greater business use of Welsh. We find the comment quoted in the Assembly committee’s report particularly telling:
I would prefer to see services provided voluntarily for the simple reason that responding to real need in the market is a challenge … The danger of legislation is that it is a false strategy. There is no inherent benefit in a piece of legislation. The benefits come from the actions of people in the community.23
In the context of the Catalan evidence that we received we do not consider this to be an argument against providing the legislative framework that is proposed in this LCO, and which we support, but it underlines the primacy of consensus and of building on the good will that has been demonstrated towards the Welsh Language in recent years. That the framework is needed is demonstrated by informal contacts received by members of the committee which showed that some major members of CBI Wales, for example, have only engaged with this process informally and at a late stage. Should that engagement blossom we could well find ourselves reflecting the Catalan experience in our own developments in Wales, which would be better than relying solely on legislation.
Support for the transference of competence 30. Most of the evidence given to our inquiry (including that provided by many private sector companies)24 supported the principle of transferring competence over the Welsh Language to the National Assembly. The submission from Virgin Media stated “Virgin media in principle supports the proposal to confer on the National Assembly for Wales [the power] to legislate on the promotion and use of the Welsh language and which service the public should be able to receive bilingually. These proposals are consistent with the principle of devolved Welsh governance”.25 CBI Wales agreed that:
It seems logical for the Welsh Assembly to have legal responsibility for the Welsh language […] We support many of the intentions that would enable the introduction of the Welsh Language LCO. We, like the Welsh Assembly, wish to sustain Welsh as a living language and to increase the number of public services available in Welsh. We, like the Welsh Assembly, support the use of the Welsh language in the private
22 Ibid. paragraph 3.77. 23 Ibid. paragraph 3.32. 24 See evidence from BT (Q 159), the CBI (Q 2) and the Federation of Small Businesses (Q 138). 25 Ev 114
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 15
sector and believe that the use of the language has cultural and commercial advantages.26
31. However, there was significant disagreement about the limits within which that competence should be transferred. Some witnesses, including the Welsh Language Society/Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, thought that all powers in relation to the Welsh language should be transferred from Westminster to the National Assembly for Wales.27 In contrast, Mr David Rosser, Director of CBI Wales said “We do believe the Welsh Assembly is the correct place to take decisions on the Welsh language. However, we do not agree that powers should be transferred which go beyond the extent of the 1993 [Welsh Language] Act, and we certainly believe the current LCO, as it is drafted, goes too far”.28
32. The transfer of competence to legislate for the Welsh language to the National Assembly for Wales appears, in principle, logical and appropriate. It would locate responsibility for the Welsh language in the social context where it is rooted and where its effects will be most evident. Support for this principle was clear in our inquiry. Concerns were expressed by some witnesses about what they saw as the general and ill- defined extension of the scope of such legislation beyond that of the 1993 Welsh Language Act.
The need for clarity 33. Although nearly all those who gave evidence to our inquiry supported the principle of transferring competence to the Assembly, a key concern for our witnesses was the need for clarity about which bodies and organisations are covered by the LCO and hence may be subject to the provisions of future Measures. The Committee is agreed that the content of the LCO should be consistent with the Welsh Assembly Government’s intentions so that all concerned are clear about the implications of its approval. One area of concern raised by some witnesses was the potential cost to business. Some representatives of the telecoms and energy industries said that they had not contributed to the consultation when the LCO was being prepared.29 They said that they were not clear who the Assembly would be able to legislate for in future, should the LCO be passed.
34. In evidence, Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government said “there has been quite a lot of discussion with the private sector”30 during the preparation of the LCO. He and other witnesses said that the intention was to future- proof the LCO so that the Government could react to future changes as they arose by means of Measures. Mr David Rosser, Director of CBI Wales told us that there was “a great lack of clarity”31 in the scope of the LCO. He noted that examples of the types of bodies which would fall under the LCO were given in the Explanatory Memorandum, but thought the proposed Order could potentially cover many more bodies, which were not mentioned:
26 Ev 60 and 63 27 Ev 72 28 Q 2 29 Q 21 (CBI) Q 170 (BT) Q263 (Energy companies) 30 Q 306 31 Q 4
16 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
“They tell me that is not their intent, and yet companies reading this draft LCO believe that that could be a consequence. That seems to be a problem”.32 Mr Rosser concluded that “there are many aspects of the draft Order, as it stands, that are unclear to us”.33 The Committee heard evidence from representatives of the Catalan government who said that businesses there had expressed deep concerns before the enactment of language legislation and that this was understandable. However they said that incidents of subsequent problems and action over compliance had been very rare.34
35. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office, Mr Wayne David MP, agreed that clarity was a key requirement of the proposed LCO:
I do take on board the very strong point which is made by the Welsh Assembly Government, that we cannot pre-empt what might be in a Measure, but I think that nevertheless it is important for the greatest possible clarity to be given to industry at this time so that they have some sort of idea what might be envisaged for them.35
He added, “We know the clear policy pronouncements of the Welsh Assembly Government with regard to [burdens on business] and we know what the policy intention is, but I think we have to make sure that we have the tightest possible wording”.36 The Committee notes that the Secretary of State has said in respect of the LCO process that it is reasonable to expect the Welsh Assembly Government to indicate its legislative intentions in the short term. However, in regard to the medium and long term it should be noted that this is a permanent transfer of power.
36. The LCO as currently proposed is believed by some witnesses to be sufficiently open-ended for the National Assembly to go well beyond the scope of the 1993 Act. It is likely and understandable that the private sector will have concerns about any form of additional regulation and we believe that the extent of any regulatory burden which might be placed on organisations operating across an internal border is a legitimate concern of Parliament and Government.
37. Clarity about the scope of legislative competence devolved will be essential at the stage when the National Assembly frames the actual Measures. Any imprecision in the way the LCO has defined its scope would create uncertainty and needless fears and could lead to legal challenge. In a legal instrument, it is not enough to rely on the good intentions of the current administration or the ‘common sense’ of those interpreting the LCO in future years. We have repeatedly called for greater precision in drafting. There is a Whitehall culture of drafting legislation in the widest possible terms to give flexibility to Ministers. However the point of the LCO system is that a proposed Order should ‘do what it says on the tin’ and that the Welsh Assembly Government will be able to come back with further changes or developments without having to wait for
32 Q 13 33 Q 6 34 Q 189 35 Q 348 36 Q 351
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 17
what might be a once-in-a-decade legislative opportunity, as can be the case with traditional primary legislation.
Scope of Matter 20.1 38. The proposed Order lists the categories of bodies that may be subject to future duties in Matter 20.1. Those upon which duties will actually be imposed will be a matter for Assembly legislation, but must fall within these categories. The proposed Order specifically excludes the use of the Welsh language in courts, and includes only the following bodies:
a) public authorities;
b) persons providing services to the public under an agreement, or in accordance with arrangements, made with a public authority;
c) persons providing services to the public established by an enactment or prerogative instrument;
d) persons upon whom functions of providing services to the public are conferred or imposed by an enactment;
e) persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year;
f) persons overseeing the regulation of a profession, industry or other similar sphere of activity;
g) social landlords within the meaning of field 11;
h) persons providing the public with the following kinds of services or with other services which relate to any of those services—
i. gas, water or electricity services (including supply, production, transmission or distribution);
ii. sewerage services (including disposal of sewage);
iii. postal services and post offices;
iv. telecommunication services;
v. education, training or career guidance (including services to encourage, enable or assist participation in education, training or career guidance);
vi. railway services;
vii. services to develop or award educational or vocational qualifications;
i) persons opting or agreeing to be subject to the imposition of the duties.
18 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
Use of categories 39. The listing in the proposed LCO differs substantially from that in Welsh Language Act 1993, which contained specific references to named bodies, rather than generalised categories. It is thus broadly clear which bodies fall within the scope of the 1993 Act and which fall outside. We do note however that under the 1993 Act the Secretary of State is empowered to name additional bodies later on and so it is not a once and for all list. This has not led to serious confusion amongst those to whom the Act applies. The LCO contains no precise list of the bodies that fall within Matter 20.1. These would be for determination by the National Assembly through the implementing Measures and subordinate legislation and ultimately by the courts. It will be open to any body upon which it is sought to impose duties under that legislation to seek judicial review if it questions its inclusion under any of the paragraphed categories. As the LCO is drafted, these are not self-contained categories and it is not clear when or whether a body which is below the threshold in one category may be caught by another category. This might lead to some uncertainty and confusion and we would urge reconsideration of the drafting to provide the necessary degree of clarity.
40. Internationally, language legislation sometimes includes a specific list of those public or semi-public bodies on whom duties are to be imposed, usually as a Schedule which can be updated periodically. These lists can be very extensive, comprising hundreds of named bodies or organisations. For example, Ireland’s Official Languages Act 2003 lists all the organisations which are defined as public bodies for the purposes of the Act, including agencies, boards and State companies (commercial and non-commercial). Jurisdictions with language legislation affecting the private sector (for example, the Basque Country, Quebec, Catalonia) do not normally identify the bodies or organisations to which the legislation applies specifically or individually. Instead, the legislation describes categories or sectors to which it applies and may exclude from coverage companies with smaller numbers of employees. This may be supplemented by a description of the relationship or contact with the public (e.g. ‘industrial products for direct sale to consumers and users’ (Basque Country)); ‘Every inscription on a product, on its container or on its wrapping, or on a document or object supplied with it, including the directions for use and the warranty certificates, must be drafted in French. This rule applies also to menus and wine lists’ (Quebec)).
41. In UK legislation, there has been a tendency in recent years to move from lengthy Schedules of specified bodies to definitions such as “public authority” (as found in the Human Rights Act). Although this has led to legal dispute, it has two potential benefits. First, at an administrative level, it avoids the need for constant updating of the Schedules as public bodies come in and out of existence, change names or merge. Second, it recognises that the boundaries between the public and private sectors are less distinct today than they once were. Many bodies, such as charities and housing associations, now “stand in the shoes of the state” (to use the judicial phrase) when delivering some services, although they may not when delivering other services.
42. The Welsh Assembly Government Minister told the Committee that the proposed LCO is intended to build on the 1993 Act and to encompass all those bodies already subject to its provisions, but by using categories rather than a list of bodies. The categories are also intended to include bodies providing services similar to those bodies already covered by
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 19
the 1993 Act, in order to establish a level playing field within sectors and promote consistency of service.37 The Minister added that:
…the intention of the LCO as drafted with categories of bodies listed is to ensure you have the flexibility in the future. If, for example, there is a change in the way public services are offered and that some might be privatised, or whatever, then that service is included within the scope of the Measure as it will be drafted and formulated. Of course, it is a matter for the Measure then and deliberations which will occur in formulating the Measure to decide which bodies exactly will come within the ambit of the Measure as it will be drafted, but I think the definitions as they stand are quite clear.38
43. The move from a list of bodies (in the Welsh Language Act 1993) to a list of categories in the proposed LCO has both advantages and disadvantages. It has the advantage of flexibility and administrative convenience. It risks including some organisations unintentionally, unless those categories are very carefully drawn, but if certain bodies are excluded from the scope of a broad categorical definition, the objective of creating consistency of service may not be achieved. We recommend that the draft LCO be reviewed with a view to providing greater clarity.
Impact on the private sector 44. The most controversial area in which we received evidence was the potential inclusion of the private sector under paragraphs (b), (e), (g) and (h) of proposed Matter 20.1. Business representatives argued that the need to comply with language laws could place extra costs on companies, making industry in Wales less competitive and acting as a disincentive to potential new entrants to the market, particularly at a time of economic downturn.39 Both the Welsh Assembly Government and the Welsh Language Board have said that the proposed Order “would not have any effect on 99% of the sector in Wales”.40 Any Measures made under the Order would only relate to the services provided to the public by private sector bodies and not, for example, to internal or corporate procedures. The Catalan Government representatives told us that costs of language laws in Catalonia were not substantial, applied to all companies and had not led to any businesses leaving Catalonia. Indeed they were highly sceptical of this argument as applied to Wales.41
45. Business representatives also argued that further legislation was not the most effective way to increase the range and quality of Welsh language services offered by companies in Wales.42 They reported very low levels of demand for such services and contended that the private sector would in any case automatically respond to any growth in demand for Welsh language services, as this would result in a commercial advantage.43 The CBI’s submission
37 Qq 295-96 38 Q 295 39 For example, the CBI (Ev 61) and RWE npower (Q 285). 40 Evidence to National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, 24 February 2009, Q 61 (Minister for Heritage). See also Ev 118 (Welsh Language Board). 41 Q 217 42 See, for example, Q 161 (BT), Ev 112 (RWE npower), Ev 114 (Virgin Media). 43 See, for example, Q 99 (Mobile Broadband Group).
20 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
concluded that the key barrier to the extension of Welsh services in the private sector was the current low level of usage rather than the legislative framework. It recommended that:
We would much prefer the Welsh Assembly Government to use its significant resources to create the business case for using Welsh. This includes the use of Welsh by consumers, giving the skills and training to individuals to have the confidence to use the Welsh language in a formal setting. If this were to be done effectively additional usage would enable more businesses to provide Welsh language services and encourage the extension of current provision by a greater number of companies than currently targeted by this LCO.44
Mr David Rosser, Director of CBI Wales, added his view that the 1993 Welsh Language Act had not had the effect of raising demand for Welsh language services in the public sector to which it applied, and that extending similar legislation to the private sector was therefore unlikely to have that effect on business.45 However he could not explain why he was therefore so strongly in favour of applying a voluntary approach.
46. The memorandum submitted by the Federation of Small Businesses reminded us that the vast majority of businesses in Wales are micro businesses and that 27% of its members in Wales are home-based. It warned that additional legislation could “turn bilingualism in business from a potential competitive edge to a negative burden”,46 reporting the results of a survey showing that only 11% of businesses cited government legislation as the single measure most likely to generate use of Welsh. In contrast, 15% chose financial incentives, 16% practical support and guidance, and 59% customer demand as the single measure most likely to generate use of Welsh in their business.47 They agreed however that the LCO as proposed would have little or no effect on small businesses and that they did not oppose it.
47. Many companies, including BT and larger utilities companies, already provide bilingual services under voluntary arrangements. Businesses generally preferred the existing voluntary approach to the prospect of further legislation. Ms Ann Beynon, Director of BT Wales said that whilst BT supported the principle of transferring competence over the Welsh language to the National Assembly, it did not see the need for legislation affecting the private sector:
Is it worth the trouble of trying to implement legislation which will be very, very difficult to implement? It is going to take a lot of time and energy to get the whole sector to accept that that is what should happen. We could use that time and energy to promote the services which currently exist and in seeing that increasing then perhaps the others would follow.48
48. Mr David Rosser, Director of CBI Wales, also cautioned that further legislation might also lead to a loss of good will towards the language, saying “I think it would be a very sad
44 Ev 61 45 Q 35 46 Ev 85 47 Ev 85 48 Q 181
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 21
day when the Welsh language is something that people are prosecuted over”.49 In its written submission, the CBI concluded that “If the private sector begins to see the Welsh language in terms of compliance and regulatory requirement then we will know the LCO will have failed”.50
49. This view was challenged by other witnesses who stated that there was a significant level of latent demand for services in Welsh. They argued that this could be elicited if businesses improved their bilingual provision and if there were more consistency across sectors, enabling consumers to expect a minimum level of service. Mr Alun Owens, representing the Urdd Gobaith Cymru, said “If you walk down the high street in any town and look for the service, the service which is provided is so inconsistent, and people are under the impression that it is going to take so much more time, so much more trouble, and people feel second-best really, asking for these services. That then causes them not to use the services”.51 Ms Siân Howys, Policy Officer for the Welsh Language Society/Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg added “If it is just a matter of it being voluntary it is not clear what you can expect. Perhaps there may be some signs in this branch of the shop but no signs in all places, for example, stating a standard across Wales”.52
50. Ms Meri Huws, Chair of the Welsh Language Board, gave examples of increases in the demand for Welsh language services which had been connected to improvements in provision. Although these examples were taken from public sector projects, she argued that a similar effect could be achieved in the private sector:
These services need to be marketed and we have seen a significant change for example with Carmarthenshire County Council where they marketed their telephone lines. There was then an increase of 50% in the use of that language service in a very short space of time. In the same way Dwr Cymru Welsh Water have gone through a similar process and it is very important that we see that demand and use are the product not only of provision but the product of something which is far more complex. It is a confidence, it is the product of practice and usage and of normalisation, not just the issue of provision leading to demand and vice versa.53
51. We also received evidence about the enforcement of language legislation in other countries and the varying degrees of success of legislation in such cases. In their oral evidence to the Committee, representatives from the Government of Catalonia said that legislation placing duties on the private sector, with associated fines for non-compliance, was a necessary part of language legislation. Although they rarely had to use the sanctions available (in less than 1% of cases of non-compliance), the existence of an enforcement mechanism was necessary in order for business to take language policy seriously.54 The
49 Q 39 50 Ev 65 51 Q 57 See also Q 56 52 Q 67 53 Q 126
54 Q 189
22 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
submission from the Government of Catalonia concluded that “the world of work and business became crucial in the process of recovering the Catalan language”.55
52. Our evidence confirmed that there is a need for rationalisation and modernisation of language legislation applying to the public sector. However, the demand for it to be extended to the private sector is contested. We believe that the National Assembly for Wales is the appropriate place for such decisions to be made, but that this must take place in the context of a Legislative Competence Order that is soundly drafted and possesses a clearly defined scope. Our evidence raised a number of concerns about the current drafting of the categories in Matter 20.1, to which we now turn.
“Services to the public” 53. Matter 20.1 includes a number of references to bodies providing services to the public. Paragraph (a) refers to “public authorities”, defined according to the meaning of section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 and intended to cover those bodies that exist solely to provide public services or perform public functions, such as central and local governmental entities, the police, health boards, etc; and those hybrid bodies that undertake both public and private activities, although only when performing their public functions. The Welsh Assembly Government has stated its intention to include the main “public services” in Wales and utilities, postal services, railways and telecommunications are all specified in paragraph (h). In evidence, Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government said that the most important criterion was:
…the issue of providing a service to the public and that liaison between the public and the service which is being offered and ensuring the element of bilingualism is included in that service, even though what you would expect from bodies would vary from body to body depending on the nature of that body … It is the interface between the service and the public that is important.56
54. The Minister went on to explain how the list of categories in the LCO had been designed to include all the key public services in Wales:
…what is important is that we create this level playing field, if you like, between the different bodies or between those different companies and they are the kinds of services which are essential to the way in which society lives. It is not just an option to have water or energy into the home, or whatever, so that really is the criterion. The other area which has been included in the LCO as it stands is the area of telecommunications and it is important to note, I think, that the current Government here in Westminster has recently stated, for example, that there is a need to have broadband into all homes in the United Kingdom, which shows how essential telecommunications are to the way in which we live these days.57
55. Some witnesses challenged the view of their industry as “essential to the way in which society lives”. For example, Mr Matt Rogerson, Senior Media Affairs Manager for Virgin
55 Ev 88 56 Qq 296-97 57 Q 290
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Media (which would be included within the category of telecommunication services), said “[t]he services we provide are still discretionary. Broadband is no longer a luxury but it is not a utility in the same sense that electricity and water are”.58 He called for the deletion of telecommunications from the Order. Similarly, Mr Hamish MacLeod, Chairman of the Mobile Broadband Group questioned the rationale for naming certain sectors and not others (for example, railways but not buses or airports): “What seems to be unusual about this particular legislation though, perhaps even unique, is that it picks out certain business segments within the private sector for legislation and we are not quite clear on what basis those lines were drawn”.59
56. Looking at the list of private sector bodies included in the scope of the LCO, it would appear clear that the defining rationale is to take in the heirs of the former nationalised industries. However, CBI Wales put forward the view that the naming of certain industries and not others risked establishing inequalities between sectors. Its submission stated that “a statutory code must provide a level playing field between companies within affected sectors”60 and that any difficulties arising from a failure to capture all competitors in the market would disadvantage Welsh companies. CBI Wales also recommended that within Matter 20.1, the phrase “providing services to the public” in paragraph (h) had the potential to be misunderstood, with the danger that the private sector would be required to deliver a greater level of services bilingually than the Welsh Assembly Government intended. Its preference was for this phrase to be replaced by the term “functions of a public nature”, which appears in the Welsh Language Act 1993 (and in the more recent Equality Bill).61
57. Other submissions argued that the scope of the proposed Order should be broadened to include more bodies within Matter 20.1. Evidence from the Welsh Language Board to the Assembly Committee stated that the list as drafted was too narrowly drawn, and recommended that:
…consideration should additionally be given to including in sub-section (h) the following persons, in view of the fact that they all provide services of a public nature in Wales:
• Persons providing savings, credit, loan or bank account services to the public.
• Persons providing to the public statutorily required insurance services, for example insurance for driving a car, since one cannot legally drive a car without that insurance.
• Persons providing transport infrastructure, such as airports, ports, bus and coach stations and toll-gates.
58 Q 262 59 Q 85 60 Ev 62 61 Ev 64
24 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
• Persons providing sports, leisure, or conference facilities, at fixed venues licensed to hold more than one thousand people, say.62
58. Evidence from the Welsh Language Society/Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg also proposed a wider scope, and suggested the model of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 comprising “all persons who provide goods, services or facilities to the public”.63 It argued that “If the Order was passed in its present form the Assembly would have only acquired a few more powers than it has now to legislate on matters concerning the Welsh language. It would not have the powers to fulfil its vision of creating a truly bilingual society with equality between Welsh and English”.64 In oral evidence, the Chair of the Society, Ms Menna Machreth, elaborated:
We believe the contents of the 1993 Welsh Language Act concentrate on the public sector, and the public sector has reduced quite a lot since the 1993 Act and our lives are being dominated by the private sector, so it is time for people to have rights to use the Welsh language within the private sector as well, and 90% of us shop in supermarkets, for example, on a weekly basis and I think that the supermarkets are an example of something that has been left out of the Order.65
59. We asked the Welsh Assembly Government Minister why he considered railways and telecommunications to be key public services, but not banks, insurance services or buses. His response was that “The scope of the LCO is the scope of the LCO and this is the agreement we had. There is an argument to be made about banking, and of course some of the High Street banks actually do provide elements of bilingual services, but this is the list we are agreed upon”.66 In his evidence, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office added:
…much of the inspiration for this comes from the 1993 Act, I think [banking] is a whole new sector which at this stage the Welsh Assembly Government does not particularly want to delve into. Could I say also that I think that is sensible because we have to be extremely mindful of the critical economic situation we are in and the turmoil which exists in the banking sector in particular.67
60. Utilities and telecommunications are specified in the LCO, but not banks or insurance services. The basis of the distinction between these services as key “public services” is not clear. There is a danger that, if the LCO fails to provide either a level playing field for business or consistency of service for the customer, the Welsh Assembly Government will be unable to achieve its policy objectives. It is not good enough for Ministers to say “this is what we agreed” if the proposal is not clear and worked through.
62 Not printed: See www.assemblywales.org 63 Ev 72 64 Ev 74 65 Q 54 66 Q 301 67 Q 354
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Enactment or prerogative instrument (paragraph (c)) 61. Paragraph (c) of the proposed Order brings into scope “persons providing services to the public established by an enactment or prerogative instrument”. The royal prerogative consists of the residual powers, privileges and immunities recognised at common law as belonging exclusively to the Crown. They include a limited power of legislation, additional to that made by statute. A long-established power, exercised now on the advice of the Privy Council, is that of creating corporations by Charter. There is no doubt in law that a Charter is a “prerogative instrument”, and that chartered corporations are “persons”, within the meaning of those terms as used in Matter 20.1.
62. In oral evidence, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office, Wayne David MP, told us that he was concerned by the large number of small organisations that could be included in the scope of paragraph (c):
… we are worried that bodies which are set up by Royal Charter may again, perhaps inadvertently, consider themselves to be covered by this particular element here. We think that is worthy of consideration. We can think of a number of organisations such as the British Legion, for example, the CBI, Girl Guides, Mother’s Union, and we realise full well that it is not the intention of the Welsh Assembly Government to cover these bodies, to include them in any way, but nevertheless this might be an inadvertent consequence and we think, once more, it is worthy of discussion and possible clarification.68
63. The Privy Council website states that there are in excess of 900 chartered bodies. Although many are said to be defunct, some 400 are stated still to be active.69 These corporations include a variety of bodies serving a wide variety of interests, of which the following are common examples:
• charitable bodies established for a charitable purpose that provide benefit for the public;
• professional bodies representing those engaged in unique professional activities;
• pre-1992 Universities;
• cities, towns and boroughs;
• town markets.
64. These corporations exhibit wide variations in their nature and activities. Some are self- supporting depending on membership subscriptions, others derive funding from the public purse, public donations or their operations. Many exist to further the interests of a particular group or to provide charitable assistance to a specific category of the public. Some are national, others regional or municipal. Accordingly, there are chartered bodies whose activities are concerned exclusively with Wales, while the activities of many span both England and Wales. By its terms, Matter 20.1 permits Welsh language duties to be
68 Q 383 69 http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/page44.asp
26 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
imposed only on those chartered corporations that provide “services to the public”. However, it is the case that some of these bodies were established to engage in activities that include, but extend beyond, the provision of services to the public. Given the widely varied activities of chartered corporations, the precise application of the term “services to the public” in each case may be difficult to determine.
65. The duties mentioned in Matter 20.1 may be applied not only to bodies exclusive to Wales but also to national bodies, e.g. those established for England and Wales, whose operations include providing services to the public in Wales. However, the current draft does not make it entirely clear whether the duties may also be imposed in relation to other corporate activities affecting Wales or only in relation to the provision of public services. The final paragraph in Matter 20.1 (which relates to the activities of a range of public utilities listed in paragraph (h)), specifically states that duties may be imposed only with respect to the services specified in that paragraph. In the absence of a similar limitation in respect of paragraph (c), it could be argued that duties could be imposed more broadly. (This observation applies equally with respect to bodies providing services to the public established by an enactment).
66. The bodies to which the paragraph will actually apply will fall to be determined by the Measure(s) implementing this LCO. That legislation will stipulate which bodies meeting the criteria in the paragraph are to be subject to language duties and the extent of those duties. It will be open to the National Assembly to do this, for example, in general terms, by categories or more specifically, as well to state cases to which the paragraph is not to apply. A Measure which imposed duties on one body falling within a category and not on another similar body falling within the same category could be open to challenge on a number of grounds.
67. Evidence supplied by Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government, stated that:
A number of Royal Charter bodies have been required to agree Welsh language schemes under the Welsh Language Act 1993, for example, the National Museums and Galleries of Wales and the National Library of Wales.
I recognise that there will be differing views as to which bodies established by Royal Charter should be made subject to duties in relation to the Welsh language under a future Assembly Measure. However, it is important to include Royal Charter bodies as a category of bodies upon which the National Assembly could impose duties in relation to the Welsh language as this status has been granted and may in the future be granted to bodies which have an important impact on the lives of the public in Wales.
All proposed Assembly Measures will have to stand up to scrutiny and the requirements for impact assessment—not to mention the application of common sense and proportionality.70
70 Ev 115
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 27
68. As we had not ourselves received any submissions from small bodies established by Royal Charter in response to our call for evidence, we asked the Wales Office whether it had consulted with the Privy Council regarding the legal and practical implications of the proposed Order for these bodies. We were told that there had been no contact.71 We therefore contacted the Privy Council directly to ask its opinion of the proposed Order. The response of the Office of the Privy Council was:
…we would not expect that the impact on chartered bodies of these provisions would be any different from their impact on bodies incorporated by other means. Chartered bodies are subject, as are other bodies, to legislation passed by Government and it seems that Government already has input on these proposals by the relevant part of the Privy Council—the Secretary of State for Wales is a Privy Counsellor and Wayne David his Minister and advisor.72
Since it was Wayne David MP who referred to this issue in evidence, we are not wholly confident that the mechanisms of consultation within Whitehall are working effectively in this instance.
69. We are deeply concerned at the apparent lack of engagement with smaller bodies established by prerogative instrument (such as Royal Charter) about their inclusion within the scope of the proposed Order. The Wales Office Minister referred to the position of these bodies in his oral evidence, yet it appears that neither the Welsh Assembly Government nor Whitehall Departments have made efforts to ascertain the potential impact of the Order on them.
70. We understand that it is not the intention of the Welsh Assembly Government to impose duties on all 900 bodies established by Royal Charter, but that is not the point. We are being asked to agree provisions which could be used differently in the future. We are concerned about the inadvertent inclusion of smaller bodies, which are often charitable in nature and entirely reliant on public subscriptions for their existence. The Welsh Assembly Government should clarify that the power in paragraph (c) is to be exercised only in respect of the services to the public by these chartered bodies (and of bodies established by enactment) and is not capable of being exercised with respect to all activities of these bodies in relation to Wales. We are not clear why the fact that a body is established by Royal Charter alone should qualify it for inclusion within the scope of the Order, which should instead focus on the nature of the services provided by a body.
Persons overseeing the regulation of a profession or industry (paragraph (f)) 71. Our recommendations in respect of bodies established by prerogative instrument (paragraph (c)) also applies to the inclusion of persons overseeing the regulation of a profession or industry (paragraph (f)). This paragraph would bring within scope some relatively small organisations and some with a joint England/Wales remit, for example,
71 Communication with the Wales Office [not printed] 72 Ev 122
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the Royal Colleges of the medical professions, the Law Society, the Bar Council, the accountancy regulators, etc. The extent to which a UK-wide body should be required to be subject to Wales-only law is a legitimate question which the LCO does not at present resolve. Equally, the Welsh Assembly Government should confirm whether the power in paragraph (f) is to be exercised only in respect of the services to the public by these bodies or is capable of being exercised with respect to all activities of these bodies in relation to Wales.
“Public money amounting to £200,000 or more” (paragraph (e)) 72. Paragraph (e) of Matter 20.1 brings into scope bodies receiving more than £200,000 of public money in a year. The Explanatory Memorandum states that this includes public money provided directly or indirectly by the Assembly, the Welsh Ministers, Parliament, Ministers of the Crown or an institution of the European Communities and sponsored bodies.73 It has been asserted by Ministers that the clause excludes payment for goods and services, however that position is not made clear in the draft. As written, the draft could indeed cover payments for goods and services. The draft should be rewritten to make this explicitly clear in order to avoid any unintended consequences. The document gives as examples of bodies included under this clause the National Botanic Gardens of Wales, the Welsh National Opera and the Wales Millennium Centre.
73. It is not clear exactly how the figure of £200,000 or more was chosen. In evidence to the Assembly Committee, the Minister for Heritage Alun Ffred Jones AM said that the Welsh Assembly Government had considered the inclusion of the phrase “substantial public moneys” but this had been rejected as being too legally imprecise.74 The Minister explained to us that the intention was to include large independent bodies:
…if you provide that kind of public subsidy to them, it is clear that there is a public value to the activities they offer and so it is appropriate, therefore, that they come under the scope of the Order and in due course under the Measure … we have no intention of catching everybody who receives public funding because grants, of course, are given regularly to all kinds of bodies. So by setting the level at £200,000 you are talking about quite significant bodies.75
He conceded, however, that the precise figure chosen was somewhat arbitrary, saying “It could be £190,000, it could be £250,000”. 76
74. In evidence, there was significant doubt about the exact types of public money that would cause a body to fall within the scope of the proposed Order. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office questioned whether public money would have to be received for services provided in Wales:
It is possible, too, that organisations, bodies operating on an England and Wales basis, might be recipients of grants of whatever kind when they are in England but
73 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 35. 74 Evidence to National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, 24 February 2009, Q 95. 75 Q 311 76 Q 311
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have an operation in Wales and they might find themselves as part of the stipulation in that respect. So I think there are issues which need to be looked at very, very carefully as far as this is concerned.77
75. Other witnesses were not clear whether certain types of grant, such as lottery money, were included in the definition of “public money”. Written evidence supplied by the Welsh Language Board to the Assembly Committee argued that bodies in receipt of significant lottery grants should be expected to provide Welsh language services.78 However, the Welsh Assembly Government Minister explained in his evidence that only the Lottery distributors would fall under paragraph (e), and not the grant recipient bodies. He judged that this made for a simpler system, saying: “The principle we have in relation to the Lottery is that the Lottery is a pot of money which exists outside of the natural system of public funding”.79
76. There needs to be absolute clarity about the types of public money that would qualify a body for inclusion within the scope of the LCO. At present the status of some grants, particularly lottery money and funding for services provided outside Wales, is unclear. Clarification should be provided in the form of a specific statement included on the face of the proposed Order and in the accompanying Explanatory Memorandum. It is not enough to rely on the views of current Ministers and their opinions on how the powers should be used. The powers should be precise and future proofed.
77. Our evidence generally supported the imposition of Welsh language duties on large, independent, but substantially publicly-funded institutions such as the National Botanic Gardens of Wales, the Welsh National Opera and the Wales Millennium Centre. However, there was concern that the decision to pick an arbitrary figure above which bodies would fall within the scope of the LCO could have unintended consequences. Witnesses also asked whether paragraph (e) as currently drafted (“persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year”) would capture bodies in receipt of an unusually large one-off grant in a single year. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office, Mr Wayne David MP, drew our attention to a communication from the Law Society which noted that certain Legal Aid practices can receive in excess of £200,000 in a year.80 In its evidence, CBI Wales raised the question of money provided through job creation funds, which could amount to a substantial sum, but would be provided once only. Mr David Rosser, Director of CBI Wales said:
I think it depends on the definition of ‘providing services to the public’. As described, it could, for example, include companies such as Amazon, which, it could be said, is providing a service to the public, or indeed Admiral Car Insurance, both of which have been in receipt of one-off elements of assistance for job-creation and investment within Wales. As it is explained to me by Welsh Assembly Government
77 Q 367 78 Not printed: See www.assemblywales.org 79 Q 313 80 Q 361
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Ministers, that is not what the intention is, but yet I have companies at the moment, members of mine, who are quite concerned that, as currently drafted, were they to engage in investment in Wales for which they received public assistance, they could potentially come under the scope of this clause.81
The CBI suggested that the paragraph should be amended to read ‘each’ financial year and not ‘in a’ financial year, in order to remove bodies in receipt of a one-off grant from scope.82
78. The Welsh Assembly Government Minister acknowledged in evidence given to the Assembly Committee that it was not his intention to “catch somebody one year and let them fall out the next year”.83 He gave us his view that this would, in fact, be counter- productive:
You are talking about bodies which offer services across a period of years and it is important to realise that if you want anybody or any company to offer a bilingual service, then you have to develop those processes over a period of time. You are talking about structures and staff development, for example, so it is not appropriate for companies which might just receive funding in one year but not the next.84
79. Nevertheless, as the Minister has acknowledged, bodies in receipt of one-off grants over £200,000 do fall within the definition of paragraph (e) as the proposed Order is currently drafted.85 This year, the definition would also include the growing number of banks and insurance companies which have received public funding during the current crisis in the financial services sector. This is despite the fact that the Minister has indicated his express intention to exclude such bodies from the scope of the LCO.86 If nothing else, this situation demonstrates that the circumstances in which public money is distributed can change rapidly and unexpectedly.
80. The imposition of duties on bodies in receipt of public funding would be future matters for Measures. The fact that, within the current drafting, bodies can move in and out of scope according to one-off grants given in a particular year does not to us seem satisfactory. We are not convinced that it is appropriate to set down a specific sum in the Order and consider that a more elegant formula should and could be devised to include bodies in receipt of substantial sums of public money. If the Welsh Assembly Government wishes to specify a threshold monetary sum above which bodies will fall within scope, it should consider amending paragraph (e) to replace the words “in a financial year” with the words “for two or more consecutive financial years”, or a similar formulation, to ensure that bodies in receipt of one-off payments are excluded. However we are not convinced that setting an arbitrary figure is the right way forward.
81 Q 12 82 Ev 64 83 Evidence to National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, 24 February 2009, Q 95. 84 Q 311 85 Evidence to National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, 28 April 2009, Q 146. 86 See above, paragraph 59.
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81. An alternative option would be to remove the reference to a fixed sum of money from the proposed Order and to include bodies such as the National Botanic Gardens of Wales, the Welsh National Opera and the Wales Millennium Centre by another means. Witnesses suggested to us that the Welsh Assembly Government’s objectives could be achieved without legislation, through funding agreements for the procurement of services. Mr David Rosser, Director of CBI Wales said:
I think where the Assembly Government procures services from organisations, if it feels that those services should be provided in a bilingual fashion, then it should make that clear within the procurement exercise, and organisations tendering to provide those services can build the costs of that into their tenders. That would seem to me to be an appropriate way of going about that particular exercise.87
Mr Hamish McLeod, Chairman of the Mobile Broadband Group commented, “if you are free to give organisations money you have a lot of negotiating power, so I feel it would be more appropriate to negotiate that on a case-by-case basis”.88
82. Alternatively, if the Welsh Assembly Government does wish to include such bodies within the LCO itself, additional safeguards could be included so that smaller bodies or private sector bodies receiving one-off grants for community projects are not included inadvertently. In that case, international comparators could provide a model for amendments to the current draft. The Republic of Ireland’s Official Languages Act 2003 includes the provision that the amount of public money received must constitute 50 per cent or more of the current expenditure of the body, organisation or group in a financial year. A similar provision might have the effect of excluding some banks and private sector companies in receipt of grants. Conversely, language legislation in Quebec specifies that only enterprises which employ more than 50 people must register with the Office québécois de la langue française (the body responsible for the implementation of the Quebec Charter), effectively removing smaller companies from the scope of legislation.89 It would be possible to combine both these types of exclusion.
83. The principle that “persons benefiting from substantial public funds should qualify to fulfil public responsibilities” (Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 35) is an appropriate one. But, as currently drafted, the proposed LCO risks including a much wider range of bodies within the scope of paragraph (e). Rather than an arbitrary figure, we believe that a statement of principles would be more appropriate in the LCO, clarifying the tests that Ministers will apply in defining the organisations or categories to which each Measure would apply. If Ministers accept this recommendation, then we believe that there is a case for deleting the £200,000 or more threshold entirely and for allowing the level to be set at the Measure stage. We further recommend that NGOs,
87 Q 8 88 Q 96 89 The legislation involves ‘francization’ programmes, covering such areas as public and commercial signs, product labelling, commercial and advertising documents, communications with clients, etc. Enterprises which employ more than 50 people must register with the Office québécois de la langue française (the body responsible for the implementation of the Quebec Charter), and, if deemed necessary, they must engage in a francization programme. Section 141 of the Quebec Charter gives details on what is required in order to acquire the necessary certificate of francization.
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charities and bodies with small numbers of employees or private sector companies in receipt of one-off funds be excluded from scope.
Gas, water or electricity services (paragraph (h) (i)) 84. Paragraph (h) (i) of the proposed Order brings into scope the former nationalised utilities of gas, water and electricity (including supply, production, transmission or generation). Bilingual services such as bills and telephone lines are already offered by some power companies in Wales and some witnesses argued that a level playing field needed to be established between all companies so that consistency of service across the sector could be established.90 However, others submitted evidence to the Committee suggesting that offering Welsh language services would raise energy suppliers’ costs and could deter new and smaller companies from entering the market, reducing competition. They thought that the current voluntary approach allowed the customer to choose a supplier, taking into account the extent of Welsh language services on offer.91
85. Our attention was drawn to the inclusion of the specific provision in paragraph (h) (i) for the “supply, production, transmission or generation” of electricity. The submission from energy supplier E-On questioned why electricity production and transmission needed to be included, when there was no direct service provided to customers in this area. E-On also asked why, if a level playing field was desired, the proposed Order covered only electricity and gas energy supply. It notes that “Many households are heated by oil, LPG or biomass and, although the supply may tend to be provided by smaller businesses, it would seem more appropriate for the National Assembly to decide the scope of any regulations than to exclude alternative energy supplies from the order”.92 In oral evidence, the Federation of Small Businesses also told the Committee that it had concerns regarding the inclusion of ‘electricity producers’ in the draft Order. It believed that this could potentially impact on small businesses renewable energy businesses, for example those with anaerobic digesters on farms.93
86. We asked Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government, whether he thought that there were inconsistencies in the clause relating to power companies. He replied:
We do not know in the future what the shape and form of the industry will be and so the production companies could also become companies which offer services, so it is important that we are ready for that and that the legislation can deal with that. More importantly, any company which produces electricity has to produce it somewhere and if a company which produces electricity wanted to establish a station, whether that is a nuclear station or a hydroelectricity station, or any kind of station, then that process would mean they would deal with the public. Therefore, it is important that when those companies do that the bilingual provision becomes a natural part of that process. That is why we have included the production companies. I accept, of course,
90 See, for example, Q 67 (Dr Alun Owens, Urdd Gobaith Cymru). 91 Qq 235-36 (npower and E.On) 92 Ev 83 93 Q139
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that in energy from day to day there is very little liaison with those companies and the customers, but if you take, for example, in my constituency the Dinorwig electricity scheme, the company there attracts people and invites people in to look at the way in which that operates and contacts schools very often. It is important, therefore, that that provision is available bilingually with them for dealing with the public.94
87. We are not convinced that the need for energy production and transmission services to be included in the proposed Order has been demonstrated. Unless our suggestions for identifying in the Order the principles that have to be met in any Measure are accepted then we would recommend that the energy production and transmission functions of companies per se be excluded from the terms of the draft Order, as distinct from other activities of companies which might necessarily include dealing with the public in Wales. Equally, given the Minister’s acknowledgement that the energy sector is changing rapidly, we are unsure why alternative energy sources have been excluded.
Telecommunications (paragraph (h) (iv)) 88. The Welsh Assembly Government has justified the inclusion of telecommunications within the scope of the LCO as a key service used by the vast majority of the Welsh population. In his oral evidence to the Assembly Committee, Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage, said that he “wanted to include this because the Welsh language, if it is to survive and prosper in the future, must be part of the lives of young people, who are the greatest users of new means of communication”. He also stated that the definition of telecommunications is was intended to include the whole range of services provided “which have been expanded significantly over the past few years and will no doubt expand further in future. Therefore, it is an attempt to future-proof the legislation”.95
89. In contrast, telecommunications companies have argued that they should not be included within the scope of the proposed LCO. Representatives from the sector raised concerns regarding their ability and willingness to provide bilingual services to a small number of people, stating that they have not yet received evidence of sufficient demand. They also highlighted technical difficulties that they would need to overcome in order to provide bilingual services. The Mobile Broadband Group pointed to the need for separate call centres and longer, bilingual messages when communicating with automatic services. It concludes “because of these practical limitations, a Welsh language customer service line would be not be preferred by the majority of Welsh speakers and that the enormous investment that would be required would largely be wasted”.96
90. Evidence from other European countries demonstrates that many telecommunications companies do provide bilingual services successfully. The Minister highlighted this in his evidence, saying “if you buy a relatively new mobile phone these days you will have a choice of languages on the screen, and of course you can receive minority languages, if that
94 Q 308 95 Evidence to National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, 24 February 2009, Q202. 96 Ev 103
34 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
is the correct term for them, lesser used languages, if you like, such as Catalan and also the Galician language in Spain […] so it is not difficult”.97 Mr Meirion Prys Jones, Chief Executive of the Welsh Language Board said that telecommunications businesses were now global and “operate not bilingually but multi-lingually”. He cited services provided by Vodafone in Icelandic and a company based in India which offered seven African languages, a number of languages from India and also Catalan, Galician and Basque.98 This could, of course, be taken as evidence that market forces can drive such developments as well as legislation.
91. The Mobile Broadband Group also expressed fears that the wording in the LCO as drafted (“persons providing the public with [telecommunications] services, or connected services”) might inadvertently bring a far greater number of businesses into the scope of the Order than it might initially appear. Its Chairman, Mr Hamish McLeod said:
I was surprised to hear the previous evidence that only 1% of companies would be affected. For example, as everybody probably realises now, phones are not just about making telephone calls any more. They are about providing lots of content services, lots of search, et cetera, so if those companies fall into the bracket of providing services that relate to those services they will be caught by the legislation and that is very many companies, I would suggest. Obviously, we distribute mobile telephony through our own branded stores but we also use lots of independent dealerships to sell telephony services. It is not just Carphone Warehouse and Phones4U; it is lots of little booths on high streets selling international phone cards and top-ups and SIMs and all these things. They potentially will be covered. As you may know, two-thirds of the market is pre-pay subscriptions and they have to top up their phones periodically and we have a very extensive network of petrol stations and newsagents and what-have-you which can provide that service, so are they covered?99
92. We note that it is not the intention of the Welsh Assembly Government to include small businesses such as petrol stations and newsagents within the scope of the LCO. In evidence, Ms Non Rhys, Wales Policy Manager for the Federation of Small Businesses Wales said that the Federation had received assurances that the proposed Order would “have a minimum impact on the day to day running of small and medium enterprises in Wales”.100 However, this is not yet reflected in the draft Order.
93. The inclusion of telecommunications has been attributed to the need to ‘future- proof’ the Order, as services such as broadband become increasingly important in people’s lives. However, there is a tension between the expressed desire to ‘future-proof’ the proposed Order in this case and the apparent wish not to go beyond the 1993 Act in the case of banking and insurance by excluding them from its scope. Some witnesses expressed concerns that the application of the Order to utilities may inhibit some companies, particularly smaller, niche market ones, from entering the Welsh market, which would have a significant impact upon consumer choice and quality of service in
97 Q 291 98 Q 121 99 Q 89 100 Q 139
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Wales. We agree that telecommunication is a key sector for effective language planning for the future growth of Welsh, particularly in respect of its use by young people. We note the fears voiced by some industry representatives but are aware that services in other languages are provided elsewhere on a level playing field without problems.
Railway services and other transport (paragraph (h) (vi)) 94. Our attention was also drawn to inconsistencies in the proposed Order relating to the transport sector. Paragraph (h) (vi) specifies only “railway services” and not other major means of public transport, such as buses, coaches or air transport. This was highlighted in evidence given by Meri Huws, Chair of the Welsh Language Board:
In looking at public transport we cannot see any reason why we should differentiate between a train service and a bus service. I think that consistency in this issue is very important and also we feel that we need to have a debate about the content of the infrastructure as well for transport such as a station. Is there a difference between a station and the bus on which you may be travelling? It is about consistency; that is what is important and that is why we have included the issue of public transport infrastructure as well.101
95. In oral evidence, Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government justified the inclusion of railway services, but not other forms of public transport, on the basis of the model of the Welsh Language Act 1993:
Partially this again is historically because the railways come under the 1993 Act, but not all aspects are included under the 1993 Act, quite strangely. For example, I am almost sure it is safe to say that under the current legislation the ticket sales service actually is not included, so it is important that we include railways and that all aspects of the work of the railways are included in the current legislation. That is why railways have been included. You have asked about bus services. To the extent that bus companies have contracts with local government—and many of them do—and also they receive public subsidies, then it is very possible that some companies or perhaps very many companies will come under the scope of the legislation and we believe it is in those areas it is important that local authorities will place those duties upon them, but at the moment that is the rationale of it, i.e. that we need to make the area consistent within railways and then those companies which receive public funds or have contracts with the public sector would be included in that way.102
96. As the Minister noted, it is possible that some public transport services, particularly buses, may fall within the scope of the proposed Order under other paragraphs. For example, bus companies may provide a service “under an agreement, or in accordance with arrangements, made with a public authority” (paragraph (b)). The funding for concessionary bus passes would also bring some bus companies over the £200,000 threshold for qualifying persons in receipt of public money.103 However, it is not certain
101 Q 119 102 Q 310 103 Evidence to National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5 from the WLGA. See www.assemblywales.org
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that all bus companies would be covered by other categories, and this would not apply to coaches or air services.
97. In its report, the Assembly scrutiny committee strongly contests the Minister’s view that it would be “too complex” to include transport sectors other than railways within the scope of the Order, particularly when some such services would fall within scope by means of other categories.104 We agree.
98. The Welsh Assembly Government has stated that the inclusion of “railway services” in the proposed Order is designed to correct inconsistencies in the 1993 Act. However, the LCO as drafted risks establishing new inconsistencies between rail and other forms of public transport. It is likely that many large providers of bus services will be caught by other provisions in the LCO. It is important not to unintentionally impose disproportionate burdens on very small bus companies.
Broadcasting 99. The Explanatory Memorandum to the proposed LCO notes that duties could be imposed on both S4C (as a body established by enactment under paragraph (c)) and the BBC (under paragraph (e) as a body receiving more than £200,000 in licence fees).105 Some witnesses argued that the absence of broadcasting as a separate category could create inconsistencies, given the inclusion of telecommunications within the list of categories and the increasingly convergent nature of the two sectors.106 However, broadcasting is not a devolved matter.
100. Both the BBC and S4C submitted responses to the Wales Office consultation stating that nothing in the proposed LCO should interfere with their editorial independence or existing obligations as public service broadcasters, including the application of the provision for the “treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality”. S4C notes that “it is crucial that [existing regulation by Ofcom] is not fettered by legislation which is language-related and not broadcast-specific”. The BBC notes that “whilst there may be no intention on the part of the Assembly, or the Welsh Assembly Government to make provision restricting editorial freedom, the BBC would be concerned in principle that such powers could exist”.107
101. It is clear that the intention is that duties placed on broadcasters would relate only to the conduct of public business and not to their functions of preparing and broadcasting programming. It would be helpful to clarify this in the drafting of the Order.
104 National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009, Committee Report, June 2009, paragraphs 5.123-5.125. 105 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraphs 32 and 35. 106 Q 283 107 Not printed.
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Ministers of the Crown and Ministerial Departments 102. Article 5 of the draft LCO provides for an amendment to Part 3 of Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006. This amendment would enable the inclusion of Crown bodies, including Ministers of the Crown, within the scope of the draft LCO. The Explanatory Memorandum from the Welsh Assembly Government states:
The Welsh Ministers intend to require Crown bodies, including Ministers of the Crown, to comply with broadly the same duties as all other public bodies, where the Secretary of State consents. This will require a limited amendment to the 2006 Act, in relation to ‘Field 20: the Welsh language’ only. The proposed amendment will permit the Assembly to confer or impose new duties or powers on Ministers of the Crown, but only with the consent of the Secretary of State, and not so as to make Ministers of the Crown liable to punishment for criminal offences.108
[…]
This Article is required in order to give the Assembly the competence to be able to avoid a multi layered system from existing in the future, where Ministers of the Crown would provide a different level of service to the remainder of the public sector.109
103. In oral evidence, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office, Wayne David MP, said “We are quite comfortable with what the Welsh Assembly Government has proposed here and we think that negotiations which are already taking place, which have taken place, will continue and we do not see any particular problem as far as that is concerned”.110
Conclusions of the Assembly scrutiny committee 104. We note that the concerns expressed by the Assembly scrutiny committee in its report cover similar issues to our own, and that it would prefer to remove the definitions given in the draft Order, which it regards as more appropriate for inclusion at the Measure stage. However, it is clear that the Assembly committee is pessimistic about persuading the Minister to do this. Given the way that the proposed Order has been drafted, we believe that simple deletion would cause more problems than it would solve unless something is added to provide a different sort of clarity and reassurance to those who are fearful about ‘burdens’ being imposed on them. Indeed, the need to do this is reflected strongly by the Assembly committee in its report, when it notes “the fears expressed by those delivering services to the public in Wales in the private and third sector and even by some public sector organisations. We believe that this stems from the lack of clarity, at this stage in the legislative process, about potential implications for them of subsequent Measures which would follow the Order”.111
108 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 51. 109 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 53. 110 Q 376 111 National Assembly for Wales Legislation Committee No. 5, National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009, Committee Report, June 2009, paragraph 3.86.
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105. We agree with the Assembly committee’s concerns about the current drafting. It is insufficiently precise and we believe that a statement of principles would be more appropriate in the LCO, clarifying the tests that Ministers will apply in defining the organisations or categories to which each Measure would apply. We have therefore considered how a simpler and more thorough devolution of responsibility to the Assembly can be achieved while also providing clarity and reassurance to those who have concerns about ‘scope’ and impact. We found the report of the Assembly committee helpful in this regard both in summarising the fears referred to above and looking to Measures as the place to resolve uncertainty. In particular:
• Paragraph 3.90: This paragraph rightly refers to “the need to place the citizen at the centre of any future legislation” and adds “We believe that the Regulatory Impact Assessment which will accompany any future proposals for Measures will be of key importance in this respect”. We agree.
• Paragraph 3.91: The committee draws a number of issues to the attention of the Minister and adds that it trusts “that he will abide by his commitment to consult widely and engage civic society and the public along the way as proposals for subsequent Measures are developed”. Again, we agree.
There appears to be an encouraging consensus between the commitments given by the Minister and the views of the Assembly committee, which we endorse. However, current Ministers cannot bind their successors, and the Assembly committee expresses concern as to whether the intentions expressed by this Minister will be carried through by him in practice—never mind any successor Minister or a different Welsh Assembly Government in the future.
106. It is a matter of particular concern that issues raised by the WCVA appear to have been misinterpreted by the Minister,112 and we concur with the more sympathetic conclusion reached by the Assembly committee. It is important to note that the Welsh Assembly Government, in bringing forward Measures, will in any event need to bear in mind the requirements of the Compact between Government and the Voluntary Sector. That requires, inter alia, that government bodies acknowledge any impact of legislation on voluntary organisations and build in appropriate financial support to both grants and contract procedures. Should the Welsh Assembly Government place requirements on charities, community groups and other voluntary organisations it would have an obligation to provide the necessary finances, to incorporate this into three-year funding provision and to allow for such costs within its own contracting procedures. We have no doubt that this would be the intention of the Assembly Government, which has a good track record of support for the sector, but in view of the concerns expressed to both committees and the Minister’s response it is important for this to be restated for the avoidance of doubt.
107. We conclude that although the intentions are clear, the draft LCO does not have the precision that is needed in drafting legislation—albeit enabling legislation—and in setting the groundwork for actual legislation that will be delivered through Measures in the future. Expressions of intent are almost meaningless in this context. Even in primary legislation the intentions expressed by Ministers in the Commons or the Lords
112 Ibid., paragraph 3.69.
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during the passage of the Bill have only limited effect,113 and it is a basic tenet of good law-making that the intentions should be clear in the legislation itself. We have previously commented on the need for precise drafting to become standard practice for LCOs.
108. Although we share the view of the Assembly scrutiny committee that the definitions contained in the current draft are too prescriptive, we also note its expectation that Ministers will insist on retaining that detail and that it goes on to suggest amendments should that be the case. But we believe that the committee’s instinct is right. We believe that our recommendations and those of the Assembly scrutiny committee—and the intentions of the Minister—would be more appropriately delivered if the LCO were amended to underline the importance of proportionality being at the heart of the Regulatory Impact Assessment for each Measure, thus keeping the LCO at the level of principle and leaving flexibility for categories and definitions of scope to be appropriately defined in each Measure in due course. That leads us to what we believe is a constructive conclusion which goes further and is more in tune with the devolution settlement than the current draft.
Matter 20.1: conclusion 109. We have made a number of recommendations for amendments to be made to the scope of Matter 20.1 in this section of our Report. In general, there is a sense that some of the categories have been delineated in a somewhat arbitrary fashion as the result of private negotiations between unspecified parties on the scope of the LCO—we note in particular the Welsh Assembly Government Minister’s comment in evidence that “this is the list we are agreed upon”.114 This has resulted in uncertainty, as expressed by our witnesses, about who will be covered. The private and voluntary sectors also complained that there had been little consultation leading up to the publication of the draft LCO, which has contributed to a lack of clarity about the services that will be required. We recognise that the LCO is a product of long drawn out negotiation between a large number of interested parties and that there has been ample time for such parties to make their views known.
110. We are of the view that powers relating to the Welsh language should be transferred to the Assembly, but only on the basis of legislative precision. This would benefit both the Assembly, by providing a solid legislative foundation for its Measures, and those who will be subject to the legislation, by providing them with clarity and a degree of certainty. It is for the Welsh Assembly Government to propose draft legislation, which we then scrutinise, but we have given some consideration to how the scope of the proposed Order can be improved. We suggest that a more sophisticated and appropriate way of dealing with the issues of definition would be for this Order to contain clear principles against which the Assembly Measures can be tested. One way to achieve this would be for the Welsh Assembly Government to insert in this draft Order tests that have to be met by any Measure subsequent to this LCO, rather than trying to insert definitions themselves in the text. These might include a test of reasonableness, a
113 Following the decision in Pepper v Hart in 1993. 114 Q 301
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test of proportionality, and a consideration of the cost to demonstrate that the application of any Measure to particular bodies or organisations will, in the long term, provide a cost-effective benefit to the public in terms of the use of the Welsh language. This would mean that instead of the Order defining those who will be affected by subsequent Measures there is greater clarity of purpose and definition of what is to be achieved, leaving it to any individual Measure to provide a definition that satisfies those tests.
111. We hope that Ministers will accept our recommendation that the proposed Order should be redrafted in the ways outlined above. However, should the Welsh Assembly Government decide to preserve the categories proposed in the current draft, our evidence suggests that some elements would prove more controversial than others. There is little debate over the case for including public authorities and Crown/Ministerial bodies (with the consent of the Secretary of State) within the scope of the Order. Witnesses recognised that the legislative framework governing the Welsh language duties imposed on such bodies is acting as a constraint and needs to be updated, for example to allow for better redress procedures. In addition, there is broad agreement concerning the inclusion of bodies which provide services on behalf of the state, although this may include some relatively small bodies and further consideration needs to be given to ensuring that any requirements do not prove excessively burdensome.
112. In contrast, some witnesses raised significant concerns about the way in which the proposed categories attempt to define the range of private sector bodies to which future laws may apply. We were concerned that, as currently drafted, the proposed Order could give rise to laws which might be incoherent, inconsistent and open to challenge. If the Wales Office and Welsh Assembly Government were to pursue the current list approach, they should consider first presenting an Order dealing with the relatively uncontroversial matters and returning to the wider scope when a more persuasive conceptual framework for legislation has been advanced. That second stage might be pursued fairly quickly, but if the approach we recommend were to be adopted there would be no need for such a two-stage process and a more complete devolution of legislative competence would be achieved sooner.
113. We believe that a two-stage process should be avoided and we strongly urge the Wales Office and the Welsh Assembly Government to adopt the principles set out in paragraph 110 of this Report. 4 Terms used in the proposed Order
“Freedom” to use the Welsh language (Matter 20.2) 114. Matter 20.2 relates to the freedom of persons to use the Welsh language. The Explanatory Memorandum states that Matter 20.2 will require “bodies” to respect this freedom to use Welsh, but will not require them to take positive steps to facilitate its use. No indication is given there as to whether the legislation would be concerned only with the conduct of bodies, including both public and private bodies, or whether it could be
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directed at the behaviour of businesses, employers or individuals who seek to interfere with or frustrate persons when trying to speak in Welsh with others.
115. It is a basic premise of the law that everyone is free to act as they wish unless the law provides otherwise. It might therefore appear that the National Assembly needs no legislative power to constitute the “freedom” of those wishing to use Welsh with others. Such a power is required only if provision is needed to prohibit obstructions or interference with the freedom by other persons or if it is intended to subject that freedom to limitations or to impose restrictions on the exercise of that freedom.
116. In recent years, there have been cases where Welsh-speaking employees have been informed that they are not permitted to use Welsh in the workplace, including a well- publicised case involving Thomas Cook. Commenting on these cases, the Commission for Racial Equality (Wales) and the Welsh Language Board have declared that such a ban is “probably unlawful”.115 These cases have been settled through negotiation and the resulting resolution has not established any legal precedent. The cases have raised substantial public concern and a strong desire particularly on behalf of Welsh speakers for a positive statement that people are free to speak Welsh. The very fact that employers have over many years felt able to ban the use of Welsh indicates that there is uncertainty about this freedom.
117. Some of our witnesses thought that Matter 20.2 was ill-defined at present and its rationale poorly presented in the Explanatory Memorandum. The submission from CBI Wales states “We are unclear what the impact of this proposal will be in the private sector. Employers and employees must act reasonably, with the understanding that core company procedures in the majority of companies take place in English”.116 In oral evidence, Mr David Rosser, Director of CBI said: “There is certainly one very high-profile one recently, and I am sure there would have been others, but I am not sure what the evidence is that this is a wide-scale problem that requires legislation to deal with it. The last high-profile case was Thomas Cook, which was clearly wrong. The company came out afterwards and admitted it had been wrong and changed its policies, and common sense prevailed”.117
118. The Welsh Language Board’s submission to the Assembly committee also criticised the lack of clarity regarding the extent of Matter 20.2, particularly in relation to limitations on the freedom to speak Welsh. It states “The Assembly Government’s Memorandum should have explained more clearly what is meant; for example, would it be possible to prevent prisoners from Wales from speaking Welsh with their families, or from corresponding with them in Welsh?”118 In oral evidence, Meri Huws, Chair of the Welsh Language Board told us:
There are several extracts of the Legislative Competence Order which struck us as being weak. This is certainly one part of it. Freedom is a very difficult concept to actually translate into legislation. It is far easier to translate rights. I am not sure of
115 House of Commons Standard Note SN/HA/4973, The proposed Welsh Language Legislative Competence Order. 116 Ev 60 117 Q 50 118 See www.assemblywales.org
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any other legislation relating to freedom so I feel—and we, as a Board, feel—that a stronger definition of freedom would be useful whether it be a move in terms of semantics or an understanding of rights, but we feel that this is weak as it stands.119
119. Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government, told us that the intention of Matter 20.2:
…is to confirm, if you like, that freedom to speak Welsh and to ensure that nobody can hinder or hamper you from doing that. But in saying that, that does mean that we would have to define that freedom and in doing so you could have examples where you could say that you do not have the freedom … You do not have the freedom to speak Welsh, for example, even though I am not an expert in this particular area, as a lawyer it appears that you could look at the issue of health and safety, for example, as a reason where you would limit somebody’s right to speak Welsh.120
He gave as an example of a limitation the use of Welsh in the emergency services.121
120. The proposed LCO and Explanatory Memorandum do not describe the rationale for the inclusion of Matter 20.2 or explain why the current legislative context is inadequate. This should be resolved before the draft is presented for approval.
“Official status” 121. The LCO provides for the treatment of the Welsh and English languages “on the basis of equality”, a phrase also used in the 1993 Welsh Language Act. However, the Explanatory Memorandum accompanying the Order also states that the LCO is the result of, “the Welsh Assembly Government’s One Wales programme of Government [which] included a commitment to seek legislative competence to enable it to bring forward Assembly Measures to confirm official status for both Welsh and English”.122 The Committee heard evidence to suggest that there may be difficulties with the use of the phrase “official status” in this context, since the United Kingdom has no statutorily defined official language(s), not even English.
122. Although no statutory provision to the effect exists, there is no question that English has the de facto status of the official language for the United Kingdom and that there are specific legal requirements regarding the use or understanding of English in some cases. It is the language in which legal, parliamentary and administrative affairs are conducted and official records are kept and the language used in international bodies and assemblies. Historically, “in law and government English was accorded a dominating position and Welsh was relegated, by implication at least, to an inferior position”.123 Equality of treatment was statutorily given effect to a considerable extent by the Welsh Language Act 1993. The Welsh Language Board was enjoined to advise those exercising public functions
119 Q 136 120 Q 332 121 Q 333 122 Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 22. 123 Report on Legal Status of the Welsh Language (Chair: Sir David Hughes Parry), 1965, Cmnd. 2785, paragraph 38.
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“on the ways in which effect may be given to the principle, in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales, that the English and Welsh languages should be treated on the basis of equality”.124 The equality principle has been applied in subsequent legislation, notably the Government of Wales Acts of 1998 and 2006. As a consequence of the equality principle, Welsh has gained the characteristics of an official language in relation to many public functions affecting Wales, although it has not been accorded an equivalent status to English in respect of all legal, parliamentary and administrative functions that affect Wales.
123. In evidence, Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage in the Welsh Assembly Government, explained what he understood by the treatment of the Welsh and English languages “on the basis of equality”:
It means that you can bring Measures in which would promote the Welsh language in order to offer a service which corresponds with what is available in English, but it does not mean that you have to ensure that the same level of service is available in Welsh as in English at all times because there is no need to have that and that would be unreasonable and very difficult to operate.125
124. The Government of Wales Act 2006 does not permit the National Assembly for Wales to make any legislation conferring official status on English. We therefore asked the Minister what meaning the phrase “official status” in the Explanatory Memorandum had in this context. He said:
This is an area where the lawyers themselves can have a field day and I am sure there will be an awful lot of deliberations on this in the future but, as I understand it, if there is a need it is possible to ensure that status can be conveyed both to English and Welsh. The problem, as you have stated, with the words ‘official status’ is that it is not defined within legislation at the moment, so any status which is given to the Welsh language through the medium of any Measure would have to be tied to specific duties because that is how you define the status of any language, because there is no formal constitution for the United Kingdom. So you would tie the status to the service you would be offering rather than making a statement, an unclear symbolic statement, about that.126
In supplementary written evidence, the Minister referred to the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, which provides for “securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language”. He notes that “the Act 2005 defines what it considers to be the means of securing official language status for the Gaelic language”.127
125. We note the reference to “official status” for the Welsh and English languages in the Explanatory Memorandum. This phrase has no statutorily defined meaning in the
124 S.3(2)(b). Similarly, language schemes prepared by Welsh public bodies under this Act are to give effect to the same principle so far as is appropriate and reasonably practicable: s.5(2).
125 Q 316 126 Q 318 127 Ev 115
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law of England and Wales. The provision for “the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality” in the proposed Order was used successfully in the 1993 Welsh Language Act as well as in subsequent legislation and witnesses suggested that there was no additional value in any reference to “official status”.
Enacting words 126. The enacting words to the proposed LCO state that the Order is made in pursuance of s.95 (1) of the Government of Wales Act 2006. This is accurate with respect to Articles 3 to 5, which amend Schedule 5. However, Article 2 modifies section 94 of that Act. The power to modify an enactment in the Act is contained in s.95 (3). The enacting words to the proposed Order should contain a reference to section 95 (3). 5 Conclusion
127. We agree that a good case has been made that the National Assembly for Wales should have the ability to modernise and bring consistency to legislation relating to the use of the Welsh language. The transfer of competence appears, in this regard, logical and appropriate. It will locate responsibility for the Welsh language in the social context where it is rooted and where its effects will be most evident. Support for this principle was clear in our inquiry, but concerns were expressed by some witnesses about the way in which the scope of the draft Order is currently defined. We believe that these criticisms reflect practical drafting issues rather than serious or significant constitutional or policy differences.
128. We are of the view that powers to make legislation relating to the Welsh language should be transferred to the Assembly, but only on the basis of legislative precision. This would benefit both the Assembly, by providing a solid legislative foundation for its Measures, and those who will be subject to the legislation, by providing them with clarity and a degree of certainty. In order to achieve the Welsh Assembly Government’s stated objective to provide consistency of service for the consumer and public, a level playing field for business, and fairness in terms of the impact on a variety of businesses and other organisations of varying sizes, we recommend that the draft Order that is eventually presented to the House for approval should have a much more clearly defined scope. We cannot, with confidence, recommend to the House that it should agree to an instrument of delegation the scope of which remains so uncertain.
129. We suggest that a more sophisticated and appropriate way of dealing with the issues of definition would be for this Order to contain clear principles against which the Assembly Measures can be tested. One way to achieve this would be for the Welsh Assembly Government to insert in this draft Order tests that have to be met by any Measure subsequent to this LCO, rather than trying to insert definitions themselves in the text. These might include a test of reasonableness, a test of proportionality, and a consideration of the cost to demonstrate that the application of any Measure to particular bodies or organisations will, in the long term, provide a cost-effective benefit to the public in terms of the use of the Welsh language. This would mean that instead of the Order defining those who will be affected by subsequent Measures there is greater
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clarity of purpose and definition of what is to be achieved, leaving it to any individual Measure to provide a definition that satisfies those tests.
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Conclusions and recommendations
1. We are pleased that our scrutiny of the proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order has taken place in co-operation with Assembly Legislation Committee No. 5. Our exchange of information has proven productive and we look forward to continuing good relationships with Assembly committees in future. (Paragraph 9)
2. In the case of the Welsh Language LCO, the Whitehall “clearance” process was not completed before the proposed Order was referred to us for scrutiny. While it can be helpful if agreement on the wording of proposed Orders has been secured before referral for pre-legislative scrutiny, we welcome the openness of the process on this occasion and the frankness of Ministerial witnesses. It is possible that there will be significant changes to the wording of the draft Order after the pre-legislative scrutiny period and should this be the case, the Committee would wish to return to the draft Order to give consideration to any substantial changes that have been made. (Paragraph 12)
3. We agree that the proposed Order clearly develops and is consistent with previously announced Welsh Assembly Government policy. (Paragraph 19)
4. We agree that a good case has been made that the National Assembly for Wales should have the ability to modernise and bring consistency to legislation relating to the use of the Welsh language. There is broad support for the National Assembly to have the ability to legislate for arrangements such as the establishment of a language commissioner and new redress procedures to deal with bodies failing to comply with their Welsh language commitments. Whilst we received evidence on the work of language commissioners elsewhere, we did not receive more detailed evidence on the intentions of the Welsh Assembly Government as to the role of the proposed language commissioner in Wales and the extent of the sanctions he or she would be empowered to apply for non-compliance with language legislation. We suggest that it would be helpful for the Wales Office to invite the Welsh Assembly Government to clarify its intentions in this respect as soon as possible and in any event before it publishes the Measure, and to indicate the process of consultation it will use to win for the language commissioner the sort of public support enjoyed by other commissioners such as the Children’s Commissioner and the Commissioner for Older People. In using these powers, we would urge legislators to recognise that the creation of a culture of positive support and practical use of the language must be the main goal. (Paragraph 26)
5. The transfer of competence to legislate for the Welsh language to the National Assembly for Wales appears, in principle, logical and appropriate. It would locate responsibility for the Welsh language in the social context where it is rooted and where its effects will be most evident. Support for this principle was clear in our inquiry. Concerns were expressed by some witnesses about what they saw as the general and ill-defined extension of the scope of such legislation beyond that of the 1993 Welsh Language Act. (Paragraph 32)
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6. The LCO as currently proposed is believed by some witnesses to be sufficiently open- ended for the National Assembly to go well beyond the scope of the 1993 Act. It is likely and understandable that the private sector will have concerns about any form of additional regulation and we believe that the extent of any regulatory burden which might be placed on organisations operating across an internal border is a legitimate concern of Parliament and Government. (Paragraph 36)
7. Clarity about the scope of legislative competence devolved will be essential at the stage when the National Assembly frames the actual Measures. Any imprecision in the way the LCO has defined its scope would create uncertainty and needless fears and could lead to legal challenge. In a legal instrument, it is not enough to rely on the good intentions of the current administration or the ‘common sense’ of those interpreting the LCO in future years. We have repeatedly called for greater precision in drafting. There is a Whitehall culture of drafting legislation in the widest possible terms to give flexibility to Ministers. However the point of the LCO system is that a proposed Order should ‘do what it says on the tin’ and that the Welsh Assembly Government will be able to come back with further changes or developments without having to wait for what might be a once-in-a-decade legislative opportunity, as can be the case with traditional primary legislation. (Paragraph 37)
8. The move from a list of bodies (in the Welsh Language Act 1993) to a list of categories in the proposed LCO has both advantages and disadvantages. It has the advantage of flexibility and administrative convenience. It risks including some organisations unintentionally, unless those categories are very carefully drawn, but if certain bodies are excluded from the scope of a broad categorical definition, the objective of creating consistency of service may not be achieved. We recommend that the draft LCO be reviewed with a view to providing greater clarity. (Paragraph 43)
9. Our evidence confirmed that there is a need for rationalisation and modernisation of language legislation applying to the public sector. However, the demand for it to be extended to the private sector is contested. We believe that the National Assembly for Wales is the appropriate place for such decisions to be made, but that this must take place in the context of a Legislative Competence Order that is soundly drafted and possesses a clearly defined scope. Our evidence raised a number of concerns about the current drafting of the categories in Matter 20.1, to which we now turn. (Paragraph 52)
10. Utilities and telecommunications are specified in the LCO, but not banks or insurance services. The basis of the distinction between these services as key “public services” is not clear. There is a danger that, if the LCO fails to provide either a level playing field for business or consistency of service for the customer, the Welsh Assembly Government will be unable to achieve its policy objectives. It is not good enough for Ministers to say “this is what we agreed” if the proposal is not clear and worked through. (Paragraph 60)
11. We are deeply concerned at the apparent lack of engagement with smaller bodies established by prerogative instrument (such as Royal Charter) about their inclusion within the scope of the proposed Order. The Wales Office Minister referred to the
48 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
position of these bodies in his oral evidence, yet it appears that neither the Welsh Assembly Government nor Whitehall Departments have made efforts to ascertain the potential impact of the Order on them. (Paragraph 69)
12. We understand that it is not the intention of the Welsh Assembly Government to impose duties on all 900 bodies established by Royal Charter, but that is not the point. We are being asked to agree provisions which could be used differently in the future. We are concerned about the inadvertent inclusion of smaller bodies, which are often charitable in nature and entirely reliant on public subscriptions for their existence. The Welsh Assembly Government should clarify that the power in paragraph (c) is to be exercised only in respect of the services to the public by these chartered bodies (and of bodies established by enactment) and is not capable of being exercised with respect to all activities of these bodies in relation to Wales. We are not clear why the fact that a body is established by Royal Charter alone should qualify it for inclusion within the scope of the Order, which should instead focus on the nature of the services provided by a body. (Paragraph 70)
13. Our recommendations in respect of bodies established by prerogative instrument (paragraph (c)) also applies to the inclusion of persons overseeing the regulation of a profession or industry (paragraph (f)). This paragraph would bring within scope some relatively small organisations and some with a joint England/Wales remit, for example, the Royal Colleges of the medical professions, the Law Society, the Bar Council, the accountancy regulators, etc. The extent to which a UK-wide body should be required to be subject to Wales-only law is a legitimate question which the LCO does not at present resolve. Equally, the Welsh Assembly Government should confirm whether the power in paragraph (f) is to be exercised only in respect of the services to the public by these bodies or is capable of being exercised with respect to all activities of these bodies in relation to Wales. (Paragraph 71)
14. There needs to be absolute clarity about the types of public money that would qualify a body for inclusion within the scope of the LCO. At present the status of some grants, particularly lottery money and funding for services provided outside Wales, is unclear. Clarification should be provided in the form of a specific statement included on the face of the proposed Order and in the accompanying Explanatory Memorandum. It is not enough to rely on the views of current Ministers and their opinions on how the powers should be used. The powers should be precise and future proofed. (Paragraph 76)
15. The imposition of duties on bodies in receipt of public funding would be future matters for Measures. The fact that, within the current drafting, bodies can move in and out of scope according to one-off grants given in a particular year does not to us seem satisfactory. We are not convinced that it is appropriate to set down a specific sum in the Order and consider that a more elegant formula should and could be devised to include bodies in receipt of substantial sums of public money. If the Welsh Assembly Government wishes to specify a threshold monetary sum above which bodies will fall within scope, it should consider amending paragraph (e) to replace the words “in a financial year” with the words “for two or more consecutive financial years”, or a similar formulation, to ensure that bodies in receipt of one-off
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payments are excluded. However we are not convinced that setting an arbitrary figure is the right way forward. (Paragraph 80)
16. The principle that “persons benefiting from substantial public funds should qualify to fulfil public responsibilities” (Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 35) is an appropriate one. But, as currently drafted, the proposed LCO risks including a much wider range of bodies within the scope of paragraph (e). Rather than an arbitrary figure, we believe that a statement of principles would be more appropriate in the LCO, clarifying the tests that Ministers will apply in defining the organisations or categories to which each Measure would apply. If Ministers accept this recommendation, then we believe that there is a case for deleting the £200,000 or more threshold entirely and for allowing the level to be set at the Measure stage. We further recommend that NGOs, charities and bodies with small numbers of employees or private sector companies in receipt of one-off funds be excluded from scope. (Paragraph 83)
17. We are not convinced that the need for energy production and transmission services to be included in the proposed Order has been demonstrated. Unless our suggestions for identifying in the Order the principles that have to be met in any Measure are accepted then we would recommend that the energy production and transmission functions of companies per se be excluded from the terms of the draft Order, as distinct from other activities of companies which might necessarily include dealing with the public in Wales. Equally, given the Minister’s acknowledgement that the energy sector is changing rapidly, we are unsure why alternative energy sources have been excluded. (Paragraph 87)
18. The inclusion of telecommunications has been attributed to the need to ‘future- proof’ the Order, as services such as broadband become increasingly important in people’s lives. However, there is a tension between the expressed desire to ‘future- proof’ the proposed Order in this case and the apparent wish not to go beyond the 1993 Act in the case of banking and insurance by excluding them from its scope. Some witnesses expressed concerns that the application of the Order to utilities may inhibit some companies, particularly smaller, niche market ones, from entering the Welsh market, which would have a significant impact upon consumer choice and quality of service in Wales. We agree that telecommunication is a key sector for effective language planning for the future growth of Welsh, particularly in respect of its use by young people. We note the fears voiced by some industry representatives but are aware that services in other languages are provided elsewhere on a level playing field without problems. (Paragraph 93)
19. The Welsh Assembly Government has stated that the inclusion of “railway services” in the proposed Order is designed to correct inconsistencies in the 1993 Act. However, the LCO as drafted risks establishing new inconsistencies between rail and other forms of public transport. It is likely that many large providers of bus services will be caught by other provisions in the LCO. It is important not to unintentionally impose disproportionate burdens on very small bus companies. (Paragraph 98)
20. It is clear that the intention is that duties placed on broadcasters would relate only to the conduct of public business and not to their functions of preparing and
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broadcasting programming. It would be helpful to clarify this in the drafting of the Order. (Paragraph 101)
21. We conclude that although the intentions are clear, the draft LCO does not have the precision that is needed in drafting legislation—albeit enabling legislation—and in setting the groundwork for actual legislation that will be delivered through Measures in the future. Expressions of intent are almost meaningless in this context. Even in primary legislation the intentions expressed by Ministers in the Commons or the Lords during the passage of the Bill have only limited effect, and it is a basic tenet of good law-making that the intentions should be clear in the legislation itself. We have previously commented on the need for precise drafting to become standard practice for LCOs. (Paragraph 107)
22. We believe that our recommendations and those of the Assembly scrutiny committee—and the intentions of the Minister—would be more appropriately delivered if the LCO were amended to underline the importance of proportionality being at the heart of the Regulatory Impact Assessment for each Measure, thus keeping the LCO at the level of principle and leaving flexibility for categories and definitions of scope to be appropriately defined in each Measure in due course. (Paragraph 108)
23. We have made a number of recommendations for amendments to be made to the scope of Matter 20.1 in this section of our Report. In general, there is a sense that some of the categories have been delineated in a somewhat arbitrary fashion as the result of private negotiations between unspecified parties on the scope of the LCO— we note in particular the Welsh Assembly Government Minister’s comment in evidence that “this is the list we are agreed upon”. This has resulted in uncertainty, as expressed by our witnesses, about who will be covered. The private and voluntary sectors also complained that there had been little consultation leading up to the publication of the draft LCO, which has contributed to a lack of clarity about the services that will be required. We recognise that the LCO is a product of long drawn out negotiation between a large number of interested parties and that there has been ample time for such parties to make their views known. (Paragraph 109)
24. We are of the view that powers relating to the Welsh language should be transferred to the Assembly, but only on the basis of legislative precision. This would benefit both the Assembly, by providing a solid legislative foundation for its Measures, and those who will be subject to the legislation, by providing them with clarity and a degree of certainty. It is for the Welsh Assembly Government to propose draft legislation, which we then scrutinise, but we have given some consideration to how the scope of the proposed Order can be improved. We suggest that a more sophisticated and appropriate way of dealing with the issues of definition would be for this Order to contain clear principles against which the Assembly Measures can be tested. One way to achieve this would be for the Welsh Assembly Government to insert in this draft Order tests that have to be met by any Measure subsequent to this LCO, rather than trying to insert definitions themselves in the text. These might include a test of reasonableness, a test of proportionality, and a consideration of the cost to demonstrate that the application of any Measure to particular bodies or organisations will, in the long term, provide a cost-effective benefit to the public in
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terms of the use of the Welsh language. This would mean that instead of the Order defining those who will be affected by subsequent Measures there is greater clarity of purpose and definition of what is to be achieved, leaving it to any individual Measure to provide a definition that satisfies those tests. (Paragraph 110)
25. We hope that Ministers will accept our recommendation that the proposed Order should be redrafted in the ways outlined above. However, should the Welsh Assembly Government decide to preserve the categories proposed in the current draft, our evidence suggests that some elements would prove more controversial than others. There is little debate over the case for including public authorities and Crown/Ministerial bodies (with the consent of the Secretary of State) within the scope of the Order. Witnesses recognised that the legislative framework governing the Welsh language duties imposed on such bodies is acting as a constraint and needs to be updated, for example to allow for better redress procedures. In addition, there is broad agreement concerning the inclusion of bodies which provide services on behalf of the state, although this may include some relatively small bodies and further consideration needs to be given to ensuring that any requirements do not prove excessively burdensome. (Paragraph 111)
26. In contrast, some witnesses raised significant concerns about the way in which the proposed categories attempt to define the range of private sector bodies to which future laws may apply. We were concerned that, as currently drafted, the proposed Order could give rise to laws which might be incoherent, inconsistent and open to challenge. If the Wales Office and Welsh Assembly Government were to pursue the current list approach, they should consider first presenting an Order dealing with the relatively uncontroversial matters and returning to the wider scope when a more persuasive conceptual framework for legislation has been advanced. That second stage might be pursued fairly quickly, but if the approach we recommend were to be adopted there would be no need for such a two-stage process and a more complete devolution of legislative competence would be achieved sooner. (Paragraph 112)
27. We believe that a two-stage process should be avoided and we strongly urge the Wales Office and the Welsh Assembly Government to adopt the principles set out in paragraph 110 of this Report. (Paragraph 113)
28. The proposed LCO and Explanatory Memorandum do not describe the rationale for the inclusion of Matter 20.2 or explain why the current legislative context is inadequate. This should be resolved before the draft is presented for approval. (Paragraph 120)
29. We note the reference to “official status” for the Welsh and English languages in the Explanatory Memorandum. This phrase has no statutorily defined meaning in the law of England and Wales. The provision for “the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality” in the proposed Order was used successfully in the 1993 Welsh Language Act as well as in subsequent legislation and witnesses suggested that there was no additional value in any reference to “official status”. (Paragraph 125)
52 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
30. The enacting words to the proposed Order should contain a reference to section 95 (3) (Paragraph 126)
31. We agree that a good case has been made that the National Assembly for Wales should have the ability to modernise and bring consistency to legislation relating to the use of the Welsh language. The transfer of competence appears, in this regard, logical and appropriate. It will locate responsibility for the Welsh language in the social context where it is rooted and where its effects will be most evident. Support for this principle was clear in our inquiry, but concerns were expressed by some witnesses about the way in which the scope of the draft Order is currently defined. We believe that these criticisms reflect practical drafting issues rather than serious or significant constitutional or policy differences. (Paragraph 127)
32. We are of the view that powers to make legislation relating to the Welsh language should be transferred to the Assembly, but only on the basis of legislative precision. This would benefit both the Assembly, by providing a solid legislative foundation for its Measures, and those who will be subject to the legislation, by providing them with clarity and a degree of certainty. In order to achieve the Welsh Assembly Government’s stated objective to provide consistency of service for the consumer and public, a level playing field for business, and fairness in terms of the impact on a variety of businesses and other organisations of varying sizes, we recommend that the draft Order that is eventually presented to the House for approval should have a much more clearly defined scope. We cannot, with confidence, recommend to the House that it should agree to an instrument of delegation the scope of which remains so uncertain. (Paragraph 128)
33. We suggest that a more sophisticated and appropriate way of dealing with the issues of definition would be for this Order to contain clear principles against which the Assembly Measures can be tested. One way to achieve this would be for the Welsh Assembly Government to insert in this draft Order tests that have to be met by any Measure subsequent to this LCO, rather than trying to insert definitions themselves in the text. These might include a test of reasonableness, a test of proportionality, and a consideration of the cost to demonstrate that the application of any Measure to particular bodies or organisations will, in the long term, provide a cost-effective benefit to the public in terms of the use of the Welsh language. This would mean that instead of the Order defining those who will be affected by subsequent Measures there is greater clarity of purpose and definition of what is to be achieved, leaving it to any individual Measure to provide a definition that satisfies those tests. (Paragraph 129)
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 53
Formal Minutes
Tuesday 30 June 2009
Members present:
Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair
Mrs Siân James Albert Owen
Mr David Jones Hywel Williams
Alun Michael Mark Williams
The Committee discussed informally the Chairman’s draft Report.
Draft Report (The proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009) proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.
Paragraphs 1 to 129 read and agreed to.
Summary agreed to.
Resolved, That the Report be the Ninth Report of the Committee to the House.
Ordered, That the Chairman make the Report to the House.
Written evidence was ordered to be reported to the House for printing with the Report, together with written evidence reported and ordered to be published on 10,17, 23, and 30 March, 20 and 27 April 2009.
[Adjourned till Thursday 2 July at 9.30 am
54 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
Witnesses
Monday 23 March 2009 Page
Mr David Rosser, Director, and Mr Leighton Jenkins, Assistant Director Policy, Ev 1 CBI Wales
Ms Menna Machreth, Chair of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg, Ms Siân Ev 8 Howys, Policy Officer, Ms Sioned Haf, Campaigns Officer, Dr Alun Owens, Urdd Gobaith Cymru, and Mr Hywel James, Parents for Welsh Medium Education, Mudiadau Dathlu'r Gymraeg
Ev 13 Mr Hamish MacLeod, Chairman, The Mobile Broadband Group
Monday 30 March 2009
Ms Meri Huws, Chair, Mr Meirion Prys Jones, Chief Executive, Mr Gwyn Ev 18 Jones, Director of Policy and Terminology, Welsh Language Board
Ev 22 Ms Non Rhys, Wales Policy Manager and Ms Nia Davies, Wales Policy Officer, Federation of Small Businesses
Ev 25 Ms Ann Beynon, Director, BT Wales
Monday 20 April 2009
Mr Bernat Joan i Mari, Secretary for Language Policy, and Mr Jordi Bosch i Ev 30 Garcia, Secretary for Telecommunications, Government of Catalonia
Mr Tony Dicicco, Head of Government Relations, RWE Npower, Ms Sara Ev 36 Vaughan, Director of Regulation and Energy Policy, E.ON, and Mr Matt Rogerson, Senior Media Affairs Manager, Virgin Media
Monday 27 April 2009
Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones, Ev 43 Head of Welsh Language and Media Policy, and Ms Nerys Arch, Senior Lawyer, Legal Services Department, Welsh Assembly Government
Mr Wayne David MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr Geth Ev 51 Williams, Head of Legislation Policy, and Dr James George, Legal Adviser, Wales Office
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 55
List of written evidence
1 Memorandum submitted by the Association of Chief Police Officers in Wales (ACPO Cymru) Ev 57 2 Memorandum submitted by BT Ev 58 3 Memorandum submitted by CBI Wales Ev 60 4 Supplementary memorandum submitted by CBI Wales Ev 65 5 Memorandum submitted by the Celtic League Ev 65 6 Memorandum submitted by Cered Ev 66 7 Memorandum submitted by The Chartered Institute of Marketing Wales Board Ev 67 8 Memorandum submitted by Consumer Focus Wales Ev 68 9 Memorandum submitted by Alistair Cook Ev 68 10 Memorandum submitted by the Association of Schools in favour of Welsh-medium Education (CYDAG) Ev 69 11 Memorandum submitted by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg Ev 72 12 Memorandum submitted by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (The Welsh Language Society) Ev 72 13 Memorandum submitted by Dr David Dalby Ev 76 14 Memorandum submitted by Dr David Dalby Ev 77 15 Memorandum submitted by Robert Dunbar, University of Aberdeen Ev 81 16 Memorandum submitted by E.ON Ev 83 17 Memorandum submitted by the Federation of Small Business Ev 84 18 Memorandum submitted by the Government of Catalonia Ev 86 19 Memorandum submitted by Bedwyr Griffiths Ev 91 20 Memorandum submitted by The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales Ev 92 21 Memorandum submitted by Rt Hon Peter Hain MP on behalf of Ronald and Pauline King Ev 94 22 Memorandum submitted by Llais Gwynedd Ev 96 23 Memorandum submitted by Councillor Alun Llewelyn Ev 96 24 Memorandum submitted by Eifion Lloyd Jones Ev 97 25 Memorandum submitted by Mentrau Iaith Cymru Ev 97 26 Memorandum submitted by Merched y Wawr Ev 99 27 Memorandum submitted by the Mobile Broadband Group Ev 99 28 Supplementary memorandum submitted by the Mobile Broadband Group Ev 103 29 Memorandum submitted by Mudiadau Dathlu'r Grmraeg Celebrating our Language Ev 105 30 Memorandum submitted by Parents for Welsh Medium Education (RhAG) Ev 106 31 Memorandum submitted by Dr R. Gwynedd Parry Ev 107 32 Memorandum submitted by Passenger Focus Ev 108 33 Memorandum submitted by Québec Government Office Ev 109 34 Memorandum submitted from Royal National Institute of Blind People in Wales (RNIB Cymru) Ev 111 35 Memorandum submitted by RWE npower Ev 112
56 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
36 Memorandum submitted by Scottish Power Ev 113 37 Memorandum submitted by Urdd Gobaith Cymru Ev 113 38 Memorandum submitted by Virgin Media Ev 114 39 Memorandum submitted by Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage, Welsh Assembly Government Ev 115 40 Memorandum submitted by The Wales Tourism Alliance Ev 116 41 Memorandum submitted by The Wales TUC Ev 117 42 Memorandum submitted by the Welsh Language Board Ev 118 43 Supplementary memorandum submitted by the Welsh Language Board Ev 119 44 Memorandum submitted by The Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) Ev 119 45 Memorandum submitted by Adam West Ev 121 46 Memorandum submitted by Gareth Wood Ev 121 47 Memorandum submitted by the Privy Council Office Ev 122
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 57
List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament
Session 2008-09
First Report Cross-border provision of public services for Wales: HC 57 Further and higher education
Second Report Globalisation and its impact on Wales HC 184 –I, II Third Report Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative HC 5 Competence) (Agriculture and Rural Development) Order 2008 Fourth Report Work of the Committee 2007-08 HC 252 Fifth Report The provision of cross-border health services for HC 56 Wales Sixth Report Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative HC 306 Competence) (Social Welfare) Order 2009 Seventh Report Legal Services Commission Cardiff Office HC 374 Eighth Report Potential Benefits of the 2012 Olympics and HC 162 Paralympics for Wales Ninth Report The proposed National Assembly for Wales HC 348 (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 First Special Report The proposed draft National Assembly for Wales HC 200 (Legislative Competence) (Housing) Order 2008: Government Response to the Committee's Seventh Report of Session 2007–08 Second Special Report Cross-border provision of public services for Wales: HC 378 further and higher education: Government Response to the Committee’s First Report of Session 2008-09 Third Special Report Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative HC 410 Competence) (Agriculture and Rural Development) Order 2008: Government Response to the Committee’s Third Report of Session 2008-09 Fourth Special Report Globalisation and its impact on Wales: Government HC 538 Response to the Committee’s Second Report of Session 2008-09 Fifth Special Report The National Assembly for Wales (Legislative HC 605 Competence) (Social Welfare) Order 2009: Government Response to the Committee's Sixth Report of Session 2008-09
58 Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009
Session 2007-08 First Report Energy in Wales: follow up inquiry HC 177 Second Report The proposed Legislative Competence Order in HC 44 Council on additional learning needs Third Report Work of the Committee in 2007 HC 325 Fourth Report The proposed National Assembly for Wales HC 257 (Legislative Competence) Order in the field of social welfare 2008
Fifth Report The proposed draft National Assembly for Wales HC 576 (Legislative Competence) (social welfare and other fields) Order 2008 Sixth Report The provision of cross-border health services for HC 870 Wales: Interim Report Seventh Report The proposed draft National Assembly for Wales HC 812 (Legislative Competence) (Housing) Order 2008 First Special Report The proposed Legislative Competence Order in HC 377 Council on additional learning needs: Government response to the Committee’s Second Report of Session 2007-08 Second Special Report Energy in Wales – follow-up inquiry: Government HC 435 Response to the Committee’s First Report of Session 2007-08 Third Special Report The proposed National Assembly for Wales HC 715 (Legislative Competence) Order in the field of social welfare 2008: Government Response to the Committee’s Fourth Report of Session 2007-08
Session 2006-07 First Report Work of the Committee in 2005-06 HC 291 Second Report Legislative Competence Orders in Council HC 175 Third Report Welsh Prisoners in the Prison Estate HC 74 First Special Report Government Response to the Committee’s Second HC 986 Report of Session 2006-07, Legislative Competence Orders in Council
Session 2005-06 First Report Government White Paper: Better Governance for HC 551 Wales Second Report Proposed Restructuring of the Police Forces in Wales HC 751 Third Report Energy in Wales HC 876-I Oral and written Energy in Wales HC 876-II Evidence Fourth Report Future of RAF St Athan HC 1129 Fifth Report Current Restructuring of the Police Forces in Wales HC 1418 Oral and written NHS Dentistry in Wales HC 771-i Evidence
Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009 59
First Special Report Government Response to the Committee’s Second HC 433 and Third Reports of Session 2004–05, Manufacturing and Trade in Wales and Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill Second Special Report Government Response to the Committee's Fourth HC 514 Report of Session 2004-05, Police Service, Crime and Anti-Social Behaviour in Wales Third Special Report Government Response to the Committee's First HC 839 Report of Session 2005-06, Government White Paper: Better Governance for Wales Fourth Special Report Government Response to the Committee's Second HC 1431 Report of Session 2005-06, Proposed Restructuring of the Police Forces in Wales Fifth Special Report Government Response to the Committee's Third HC 1656 Report of Session 2005-06, Energy in Wales Sixth Special Report Government Response to the Committee's Fourth HC 1657 Report of Session 2005-06, Future of RAF St Athan Seventh Special Government Response to the Committee's Fifth HC 1695 Report Report of Session 2005-06, Current Restructuring of the Police Forces in Wales
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Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence
Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee on Monday 23 March 2009
Members present Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair
David T.C. Davies Alun Michael Nia GriYth Hywel Williams Mrs Siaˆn C. James Mark Williams Mr David Jones
Witnesses: Mr David Rosser, Director, and Mr Leighton Jenkins, Assistant Director Policy, CBI Wales, gave evidence.
Chairman: Croeso, welcome to the Welsh AVairs Mr Rosser: We believe that legislation on the private Committee and this particular session on the Welsh sector to provide bilingual services is not the correct Language Legislative Competence Order. Before I way of promoting increased usage of the Welsh ask you to introduce yourselves, the Committee may language by consumers in Wales. We believe the wish to make an announcement or declaration about facility route that has been pursued so far by many any interests they may or may not have. Given that companies, working with the assistance of the Welsh some of the witnesses later on today represent Urdd Language Board, has resulted in a wider variety of Gobaith Cymru, the National Eisteddfod, I wish to services provided. All the evidence we have seen make the Committee aware that I am a member of suggests that this is a demand-side problem rather the Gorsedd and have been for the last thirty years. than a supply-side problem, and those companies Are there any other members of the Committee who that already provide Welsh language services do not wish to say anything? see any meaningful usage of them. We believe that Hywel Williams: I am also a member of the Gorsedd understanding why that is the case and working with y Beirdd patrons. Although it is not an interest, I the people of Wales to encourage increased take-up have been working with the Welsh Language Board is the best route to promoting language at this time. before I was elected and continue to have a Alun Michael: Can we ask the witnesses to speak up relationship with them, though it is not a monetary a bit? The acoustics are dead! one in any sense. Chairman: The acoustics are not brilliant. It is not your fault. It is to do with the geography of this room. Q1 Chairman: Can I thank you for your written evidence, which was very helpful in preparing for Q4 Nia GriYth: In the light of your comments, what this session. Can I finally ask you to introduce can you tell us about how you view the list of bodies yourselves? on which the duties can be imposed, as it is currently Mr Rosser: Thank you, Chair: David Rosser, drafted, and do you think it is clear which bodies are Director, CBI Wales. included and which are excluded, or do you think Mr Jenkins: Leighton Jenkins, Head of Policy, from there could be legal challenges in the future? the CBI in Wales. Mr Rosser: We do not believe that it is appropriate to include bodies under section H within the draft Q2 Chairman: I notice from your evidence that you Order. We are unclear which bodies are intended to support the transference of legal responsibility for be captured by clause E, that is referring to the Welsh language to the National Assembly. organisations receiving more than £200,000 of Would you support the wholesale transference of public money. We note the explanation and power over all aspects of Welsh language legislation examples given within the explanatory to the Assembly rather than limiting the extent of memorandum, but, as drafted, that clause seems to powers to a list of bodies on which duties can be cover potentially a far wider range of imposed? organisations—and, indeed, you have seen evidence Mr Rosser: We do believe the Welsh Assembly is the from the Heritage Minister in the Welsh Assembly correct place to take decisions on the Welsh that it is his belief that it should cover a much wider language. However, we do not agree that powers range too. We think there is a great lack of clarity in should be transferred which go beyond the extent of that clause. the 1993 Act, and we certainly believe the current Y LCO, as it is drafted, goes too far. Q5 Nia Gri th: Is there any comment you wish to make about how that clause should be shaped? Mr Rosser: As I understand it from Members of the Q3 Chairman: Can you explain why you hold that Welsh Assembly Government, the intention is to view? capture organisations that are in regular ongoing Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 2 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
23 March 2009 Mr David Rosser and Mr Leighton Jenkins receipt of public monies. The example given is the Q9 Alun Michael: That would suggest that you do Wales Millennium Centre, which, year in year out, not agree with it being part of the legislative will receive subsidies from the public sector. It does requirements. seem appropriate to us that organisations of that Mr Rosser: Agreed; we do not think it is necessary in nature should be required to provide services order to achieve what is— bilingually. When we see comments made that companies in receipt of grants for settlement Q10 Hywel Williams: Can I ask for your comments operations that create jobs in Wales might also be on the level of £200,000? Personally, I have never covered, or companies participating in the understood why it should not be £200,000 plus one Assembly’s new ProAct scheme for training support or minus one pound, and what would happen over a might also be covered, that seems far less period of 10 years given a possible rate of inflation appropriate to us. when £200,000 might not be a large amount of money, or deflation? Mr Rosser: Precisely the point about deflation! I Q6 Alun Michael: There are a lot of bodies that could have no idea why £200,000 or whether it is the right be regarded as hybrid in the sense that they are part figure. As I say, if it is intended for organisations in voluntary, part non-statutory, partly private receipt of one-oV public sector support, then I do not companies or they are perhaps a partnership think it is appropriate. If it is to cover organisations between diVerent sorts of bodies. Do you think the year in, year out in receipt of public funding, I have proposed Legislative Competence Order is no idea what the level of money should be. suYciently clear about when it catches and when it does not catch bodies of that sort? Q11 Hywel Williams: Can you suggest another way Mr Rosser: No; there are many aspects of the draft of capturing these companies, for example, in terms Order, as it stands, that are unclear to us. Within the of the sorts of services they provide to the public, or field of telecommunications, for example, the scope do not, as it were? Is there any other way you could of companies, the scope of sectors and the scope of define them? technologies in that field is extremely wide. As Mr Rosser: It is not clear to me what the Assembly drafted, it would cover a whole range of Government is intending when it drafts this organisations, which we think it could be quite particular clause. If it is to cover organisations which diYcult to implement Welsh language requirements it is grant-aiding, one assumes it could put a and duties on. provision within its grant assistance to cover bilingual services. It strikes me as a simple way of doing things. Q7 Alun Michael: You also refer in your comments at paragraph 40 to the provision to services that Q12 Alun Michael: Just finally on this question of the receive public money amounting to £200,000 or £200,000 figure, because I think we are all a bit more in a financial year. Is simply arguing about the puzzled as to why it should be drawn at that level of finances adequate? particular point, have you undertaken any work Mr Rosser: I return to what we understand the with your members to get a profile of those intention of this clause to be. As explained to me by organisations which are members of the CBI that Members of the Welsh Assembly Government, the would be caught by that level of threshold? intention is to cover those organisations that are Mr Rosser: I think it depends on the definition of year in, year out in receipt of public funding in order “providing services to the public”. As described, it to deliver their services. If that is the case, then could, for example, include companies such as changing “a year” to “every year”, some form of Amazon, which, it could be said, is providing a change that recognises that this is meant to refer to service to the public, or indeed Admiral Car organisations with ongoing dependence on the Insurance, both of which have been in receipt of one- public sector or public funding. oV elements of assistance for job-creation and investment within Wales. As it is explained to me by Welsh Assembly Government Ministers, that is not Q8 Alun Michael: There is a big diVerence as well, is what the intention is, but yet I have companies at the there not, between bodies that receive money to moment, members of mine, who are quite concerned enable them to do a particular piece of work and that, as currently drafted, were they to engage in those that are contracted to provide a service to the investment in Wales for which they received public Assembly or to other public bodies? Is that assistance, they could potentially come under the something you have explored with your members? scope of this clause. Mr Rosser: I think where the Assembly Government procures services from organisations, if it feels that Q13 Alun Michael: Essentially, as far as the financial those services should be provided in a bilingual threshold is concerned, it is the lack of clarity around fashion, then it should make that clear within the what would qualify for having to meet this procurement exercise, and organisations tendering requirement that is the biggest problem. to provide those services can build the costs of that Mr Rosser: I do not think the Assembly into their tenders. That would seem to me to be an Government should be looking to impose bilingual appropriate way of going about that particular requirements on companies in receipt of grant exercise. assistance for job-creation in Wales. They tell me Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3
23 March 2009 Mr David Rosser and Mr Leighton Jenkins that is not their intent, and yet companies reading been discussed with the wide CBI membership in this draft LCO believe that that could be a Wales but also of course with companies that are consequence. That seems to be a problem. likely to be caught by any order that is passed.
Q14 Mr David Jones: Mr Rosser, you mentioned Q16 Mrs James: In part of that consultation, have two very large companies, Amazon and Admiral you studied the experience of private companies in Insurance, and of course there are a lot of much other countries where there are similar language smaller organisations that receive funding, public laws? money of whatever sort, particularly in North Wales Mr Rosser: No, we have not. in places like Llandudno, where a lot of hotels and guest houses have been in receipt of grants from Q17 Mrs James: Any experience at all of any other what used to be the Wales Tourist Board and now countries? VisitWales. Is it a concern to you that small Mr Rosser: No, we have not, and I would caution organisations, which frequently are family-run that any similar international comparison should be organisations, could be aVected by compliance with made on a like basis. I think the issue here is the Welsh language legislation? proportion of population in Wales that speak Welsh Mr Rosser: As drafted, it seems to me that against the size of the population of Wales. organisations of that nature could fall within the scope of the Order. To the extent that they are then required to provide bilingual services for which there Q18 Hywel Williams: I feel slightly concerned, Mr is little, if any, customer demand, and this is the key Rosser, when you refer to tourism and the potential part of this, how we get the Welsh population to start impact on tourism, which is an extremely important using these services more, then it seems to me they business in my constituency, and Mr Jones’s as well. will be required to provide services at a cost for no Are you aware of companies that have received real benefit, either to themselves as businesses or to £200,000 of public money in a financial year which their customers. would be impacting in either Mr Jones’s constituency or mine, or anywhere else for that matter? Q15 Mrs James: Just to go on a little bit further with Mr Rosser: I am aware of many companies that have this issue of the impact on the private sector, in your received more than £200,000 in a financial year. evidence you say matters are unclear and there are implications and you have talked a little bit about it, but have you been involved in any consultation on Q19 Hywel Williams: In the tourism sector? the terms of the proposed Order with your members? Mr Rosser: In the tourism sector? Well, I can think Mr Rosser: We have discussed attitudes towards the of one. Bluestone, for example, in Pembrokeshire Welsh language and provision of Welsh language received far more than that to set up an operation. services within the CBI with our members on many We have not discussed this particular legislation with occasions over many years. Certainly in the time that Bluestone at all, but clearly they have received more I have been with the CBI, the business attitude than that amount of money. towards the Welsh language, I think, is becoming more positive, and I think there are more services V Q20 Mr David Jones: Most of Wales’s business is of being provided and o ered to the people of Wales in course done with England. What cross-border many sectors, far beyond the old traditional ex- implications, if any, do you foresee with this LCO? nationalised industries. The big concern for Mr Rosser: From the business communities businesses currently providing Welsh language perspective, the cross-border implications would be services to customers is the very small level of usage around having to set up diVerent systems to deal by them. Companies are providing and investing on with this in Wales and outside Wales, so having to the basis of a commitment to Wales and to their invest in systems that are bilingual whilst customer base in Wales, but are not seeing any return maintaining systems that are English-only. Again, for that investment. When that is the case, it seems the extent of the issue really depends on what is to us that the voluntary route is the appropriate meant by “Welsh language services”. One of the big route to proceed further in this area. Pretty much problems and concerns that we have is that, after 18 any service you wish to procure now can be procured months of asking the Welsh Assembly Government, on a competitive basis. The only monopoly provider we have been unable get any clarity around what is in the private sector that I can think of is Welsh meant by provision of Welsh language services and Water, which of course is already covered by the what is meant by treating Welsh and English on the Welsh Language Act and produces a Welsh language basis of equality. If a duty is provided, one can scheme. In a situation where any service is provided imagine a very high standard of services and duties on a competitive basis and customers can choose being required of companies, or a much lower, more who to provide them with a service, they can make basic level of services with very diVerent cost demands. They can make clear the demand for implications for businesses, but it is entirely unclear Welsh language services, should they choose to do to us what it is the Welsh Assembly Government is so, and we think a voluntary route is by far the best going to require any individual company to do as a route to go. The evidence we have been given has result of any Measures which follow from this Order. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 4 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
23 March 2009 Mr David Rosser and Mr Leighton Jenkins
Q21 Mr David Jones: What sort of information have business or the length of time it will take them to you sought from them and what has been the achieve a return from operating in Wales, it may act response from the Welsh Assembly Government? as a disincentive. Mr Rosser: I am afraid we have never had a meaningful response from the Welsh Assembly Q26 Hywel Williams: The Committee does not have Government on what services they are likely to any further information than you do about the require a company to do and what they mean by intentions. Is it not likely that the Welsh “bilingual services”. We have raised this with civil Government’s intentions will become clear when servants and with ministers within the Welsh Measures are being proposed rather when the LCO Assembly Government. is being proposed? I suppose you would be arguing robustly, when those Measures are presented, for the Q22 Mr David Jones: What impact do you consider case you are making here today. that a robust Welsh language policy would have Mr Rosser: We will argue robustly at that stage too. upon businesses from England seeking to establish We argue now that I think we would like to themselves in Wales? understand why the policy of compelling the private Mr Rosser: I do not understand what is meant by a sector to provide bilingual services, where the “robust Welsh language policy”. Again, I come back evidence base is (a) that there is a real demand out to the fact that we have no visibility whatsoever on there amongst the people of Wales for these services, what services are likely to be required of the and (b) that provision of such services will increase companies. It strikes me that any business will deal usage of the language within Wales. We see no with this in a very practical and pragmatic way, so it evidence for either of those. would look at the duties placed on it, the services it would have to provide and the costs of that, and set Q27 Mark Williams: Can I just ask you about the those against its estimation of its market in Wales. If process of dialogue to date with the Welsh Assembly the market is such and its business is such that it Government. You seem very gloomy in your justifies the cost, it will carry on and do business in prognosis that you have not had the discussions you Wales. For those smaller companies, or if we have would have liked in terms of the depth and scale of very high costs placed on business, they may well what is intended. I appreciate what Mr Williams has take a decision not to do business in Wales. just said, that it is obviously for the Assembly to determine the Measures, but are you gloomy? Would you wish for a greater dialogue at this early stage in Q23 Mr David Jones: But it would certainly be a the deliberation of the Order, notwithstanding the factor, in your opinion, that companies would take fact that you obviously gave evidence to the into consideration. Assembly Committee? Mr Rosser: Well, of course businesses would take, as Mr Rosser: I am sorry if I gave that impression. We they would do in entering or operating in any have had extensive dialogue with the Welsh market, a view on the costs of doing business within Assembly Government on this issue over a that market and their likely customer base in that considerable period of time. We just have not market. That seems perfectly sensible. received any clarity on what they intend to do.
Q24 David Davies: Mr Rosser, the supporters of this Q28 Mr David Jones: Your submission states that a measure suggest that this will be good for business statutory code must provide a level playing field because promoting the Welsh language will be good between companies within aVected sectors. You of for the economy. Can you see any argument for that course favour a voluntary rather than a statutory in the narrowest sense? approach to the issue of the Welsh language services. Mr Rosser: Well, you would not need legislation! How do you feel a voluntary approach would provide that level playing field among companies in the same sector? Q25 David Davies: Do you think it is quite possible Mr Rosser: I am sorry if my memorandum was that businesses already in Wales, which might be unclear. A level playing field is required once you faced with extra costs if they are operating on the introduce a legislative system. Currently, you do not margin, might decide to relocate to England? have a level playing field, so you have probably six Mr Rosser: I think it is important not to skate large-scale energy providers in Wales, three of whom around this issue. I come back again to our complete provide some Welsh language services and three of lack of visibility around the duties the Welsh whom do not. They compete with each other. The Assembly Government is likely to place on people of Wales are free to make their purchasing individual companies. Those companies that are decisions based on whichever parameters they think already in Wales with an existing business and important to them. Sadly, all the evidence is that that market in Wales, if a low level of duty is placed on is price, not bilingual services. As soon as you them, they will probably continue to operate in introduce legislation, you have to provide a level Wales and just pass on the costs. In a situation where playing field clearly. The concern we have is that, every company has to provide services, there will be when we ask the Welsh Assembly Government an incentive not to pass on the costs. For smaller about implementation, you get some kind of answer companies looking to enter Wales as a new market, round, “Oh, it will be like the public-sector schemes perhaps unsure about the likelihood of winning we have currently where every institution negotiates Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5
23 March 2009 Mr David Rosser and Mr Leighton Jenkins a Welsh language scheme with the Welsh Language Q32 Hywel Williams: It is the aim of the Welsh Board.” That will not work when you start to apply Assembly Government to promote the Welsh it to commercial markets and companies competing language consistent with the 1993 Act. with each other; you have to have a level playing field Mr Rosser: Yes. when legislation is involved. That means that a company such as BT, which competes with Q33 Hywel Williams: On your own evidence, the Carphone Warehouse, Virgin, Sky and mobile current voluntary arrangements are not producing operators, you have to have a level playing field for the level of demand that you think would be those companies competing against each other. That suYcient to justify Welsh language provision. You is the point we were trying to make, that somehow a said earlier that on the demand/supply model there notion of “Don’t worry, it will all be very flexible” is, is not suYcient demand. we believe, unrealistic. Mr Rosser: The reason I am frowning is I am not sure it is the role of companies in Wales operating a Q29 Mr David Jones: You mentioned voluntary system to produce a level of demand, I telecommunications because that is a very obvious am afraid. example. What sort of impact in turn would the lack of a level playing field have upon the consumer in Q34 Hywel Williams: It is a legitimate aspiration of Wales in that particular example? the Government, their proper aspiration, to Mr Rosser: Firstly, I imagine that, if legislation did promote and enable the use of the Welsh language, not deliver a level playing field, the Welsh Assembly is it not? Government would be open to legal challenge from Mr Rosser: We accept that, and we would be very some of the companies involved. Otherwise, happy to work with, and we have oVered to work companies may just decide that Wales is not a place with, the Welsh Assembly Government on the Welsh in which they do business or oVer services. Again, it language— depends on the extent to which the playing field is not level, and again we come back to the fact that we Q35 Hywel Williams: My problem with your do not know what individual companies will be standpoint, you see, is that you are applying the required to do under the terms of any Measures supply-and-demand model to language-planning, flowing from this. Any company that believes it is which is a much broader field and is not always competing on a cost base which is artificially inflated susceptible to supply and demand models. It has above its competitors’ is going to have to take some taken about a century for the current level of Welsh pretty fundamental decisions about what to do language to be reached and it might take a bit about that. longer than— Mr Rosser: I am sorry, the public sector has been Q30 Mr David Jones: You are here to deliver the oVering Welsh language services by law now since corporate view of the CBI. I take it you have taken the 1993 Welsh Language Act. The level of demand soundings of your members? for services in the public sector is pretty pitiful too, Mr Rosser: We have had extensive discussions with a frankly, so that has not created the demand either. whole range of companies in this area, and of course Passing a law to require another couple of dozen particularly those companies that are likely to be companies to provide services which are already covered by any legislation which flows. provided by companies and not used, I do not see where the evidence base is that that will suddenly Q31 Mr David Jones: You are satisfied that the view result in a whole lot more people using the language. you are presenting—is that a unanimous view or an What the Welsh Assembly should be doing is overwhelming view of those companies that are promoting services that are already provided, likely to be aVected? advertising them, working with companies to do Mr Rosser: I would say it is a unanimous view that that, encouraging companies to provide more legislation is not welcome. It is not felt to be the right services, not cutting the grant to companies to help way, the best way of encouraging greater use of them provide Welsh language services, which is what Welsh language services in Wales, and it is a it is doing from 1 April, and it should be doing some unanimous view that there is no return for businesses research to find out why it is that the 20% of people from the investment they are currently putting into in Wales who claim to be able to use the Welsh their current Welsh language services. There are language decide not to when it comes to interacting Y clearly diVerent views within diVerent companies in their o cial life and interacting with business. about their existing appetite to do things in Welsh, to There is something there I do not understand. provide Welsh language services. Some companies choose voluntarily now to oVer services and other Q36 Hywel Williams: The peculiarity, I think from companies do not. DiVerent companies choose to your standpoint, is that you are saying that the compete for a customer base on diVerent volunteer approach does not work at present and— propositions. There is certainly a unanimous view Mr Rosser: I did not say that. amongst our members likely to be covered by the legislation that it is not appropriate and it is not Q37 Hywel Williams: However, you are advocating necessary, given the level of demand they see in it. Wales and the fact that they are all competing in Mr Rosser: I did not say that. I did not say it did not competitive markets. work. I am not quite sure what you mean by “work”. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 6 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
23 March 2009 Mr David Rosser and Mr Leighton Jenkins
Q38 Hywel Williams: Using your own measure of If you are not prepared to counter going down this the demand for Welsh language services, you say particular route, what measures would you like to that it is pitifully low. see the Assembly taking to support the language? Mr Rosser: It depends what you mean by “work”. Mr Rosser: This seems to me, from people I talk to, When I say it is working, I have seen more services a peculiarity, that people who use Welsh in their being provided by private companies in Welsh. Year social life have a reluctance to do so when interacting on year I see more being provided, and the Welsh with oYcial matters, including local business. I do Language Board has had several hundred not understand why that is the case. I think it would companies sign up to its voluntary scheme, so, if be useful to have some research done to understand what you are looking for is more companies to why that is. Certainly there is a role for a good- provide more services for the people of Wales to use, quality voluntary accreditation scheme so that I think the voluntary approach is working. There is businesses that choose to provide Welsh language certainly further to go and we are happy to work services can have them assessed and can have them with the Welsh Assembly Government and the promoted, and there is a role for the Welsh Assembly Welsh Language Board to go further. If what you Government in helping companies to provide more mean by “working” is more people using the Welsh language services. It seems astonishing that, services, I am not sure that is the responsibility of at a time when they are proposing legislation to business, frankly. promote the Welsh language, they are cutting the grant to companies to help them provide bilingual signage, for example. It seems quite odd! Q39 David Davies: Mr Rosser, can you tell us if you have had any idea what sort of sanctions might be applied to companies which fail to comply with the Q42 Mark Williams: As a general question, why do LCO if it is brought in? you feel the Assembly Government has taken this Mr Rosser: None whatsoever, I am afraid. I think it route? Is it not a response to the fact that the would be a very sad day when the Welsh language is language is growing and the dynamics are moving in something that people are prosecuted over. At the a very positive way for the language? That might not moment I think what we have increasingly is most necessarily be seen in the usage figures you have people are supportive and most businesses are alluded to, but there will come a point in time when supportive. They may use it to diVering extents, but that will be replicated in usage. If you look at figures there is very little antipathy towards the Welsh for the Welsh language provision in primary schools, language. for example, it is growing massively. The measure being sought is not simply short-term, it is longer- term giving the Assembly the freedom and the Q40 David Davies: As an individual, I chose to learn latitude to pursue a longer-term policy as well. the Welsh language. If somebody had forced me, I Mr Rosser: If, as you say, as we all hope, myself would have reacted very badly to that. Can you see included, that Welsh language usage is going to a parallel with the way businesses look at it as well, increase, why do we need to legislate for it? that, if they are forced into doing things, they may rather resent it? Q43 Mrs James: I want to go back to the comment Mr Rosser: I think we all resent doing things that we you made, which seemed a very sweeping comment V do not want to do. When business is e ectively to me, about reluctance from Welsh speakers who forced to do something for which there is no return use the language socially to use the language and of which there is no obvious need, I am afraid all oYcially. It is very diYcult on occasions and has too often I talk to companies that already invest in been very diYcult in the past to use the language providing Welsh language services which have oYcially. I come back to my original question to exceptionally low demand, less than 1% of calls and you: if you have not done some consultation exercise way less than 1% of correspondence. If you look at with your members, has this really been coming up? the statistics for people contacting the police forces Have you any figures to back this up? It seems to me in Wales, we are talking about 1%, 2% or 3% within that it is a quite sweeping comment. the Welsh language. This is not about requiring more Mr Rosser: I am sorry, what do you mean by organisations to provide more services that are not “consultations”? used; it is about trying to find out why the services are not used, and encouraging people to use them, and giving them the confidence to use those services Q44 Mrs James: I did ask you if you had had some that are provided. As usage goes up, we believe that form of consultation. You talked about speaking to more companies will then see that this is something people and people telling you things, they are the customers want and will react to that. anecdotal things, but you do not seem to be able to back it up with any paperwork or documentation or figures, and this comment is just a comment too far Q41 Mark Williams: You have been very clear in for me. It seems that you have made this comment your opposition to any notion of compulsion. Can about people using the language oYcially and you say more about what actions you envisage to socially. It seems quite sweeping. increase the provision of services in Welsh by private Mr Rosser: Members of my own family act in companies? You say in your memorandum that the precisely that way! We have gone to a number of Assembly Government should use its significant companies and asked them about the level of usage resources to create the business case for using Welsh. of the current Welsh language services. The BBC did Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 7
23 March 2009 Mr David Rosser and Mr Leighton Jenkins a survey last year and a question was put down to problem that requires legislation to deal with it. The ask about usage of calls to the four police forces in last high-profile case was Thomas Cook, which was Wales. We are talking about 1% or 2% interaction clearly wrong. The company came out afterwards with these organisations in the Welsh language, and and admitted it had been wrong and changed its you very rarely see anything higher than that. There policies, and common sense prevailed. seems little point to us in doing a widespread survey of our own membership in Wales when the great Q51 Hywel Williams: After a great deal of majority will not be covered by— arguments, dissension and very negative discussions about language, whether to use it or not. Surely, if it Q45 Mrs James: Maybe there are companies that are were clear to companies that they were not allowed going to be covered by it! to ban their workers from speaking Welsh to Mr Rosser: As I say, I would encourage you to talk customers or to each other in the Thomas Cook case to some of the ex-nationalised utilities and ask them or historically many other cases, including the about it. infamous Brewer Spinks case in the early sixties, if it was clear to them that that was the case, surely it Q46 Mrs James: Mr Rosser, I do, and I set up the would avoid a great deal of unnecessary controversy Welsh language helpline in Wales, so I do have quite around the Welsh language, which I am sure we all a lot of experience in this. agree is undesirable? Mr Rosser: Good, and I imagine you are getting the Mr Rosser: We have no problem with the freedom of same answers that we get then, that the level of usage people to speak Welsh to each other in the is very, very low. workplace; it seems entirely sensible to us. However, our concern is when you start to look at the Q47 Mrs James: Yes, but you have to build it up and suggested exemptions to this and one starts to talk find ways of working with it. about health and safety legislation, which has quite Mr Rosser: I agree. a legal underpinning to it. If I am running a team of six people in Wales, and three of them speak Welsh Q48 Mrs James: I am not going to get into a and three of them do not, I need to be able to hold public— team meetings in English. That just strikes me as an Mr Rosser: I agree. We actually agree with you. issue of common sense. Equally, if three people speak Welsh to each other about the business, they Q49 Hywel Williams: Can we turn to 20.2, the should be able to speak to each other in Welsh. That competence over the freedom to use the Welsh equally strikes me as a matter of common sense. language, which is another very contentious issue of There is a great deal of concern in this whole course. In what circumstances do you envisage that legislative process that we run a danger of creating a this matter would apply to private companies? law of cause ce´le`bre cases if we are not careful. This Mr Rosser: I imagine by the way it is drafted it would surely must be an area where common sense is apply to all private companies. I have to say it strikes allowed to break out. I do not quite know how you us as a matter of common sense; it is clearly not legislate for common sense and, as I said, we have no appropriate to stop people using Welsh in the problem with the right of people at the workplace to workplace. speak Welsh to each other, but there has to be business common sense. Q50 Hywel Williams: There have been some fairly Chairman: Can I thank you for your evidence today. high-profile cases where that has happened. We thank you for your written evidence. If you feel Mr Rosser: Well, I am not sure what the number is. that in the light of today’s session you would like to There is certainly one very high-profile one recently, add anything or in subsequent sessions you wish to and I am sure there would have been others, but I am add anything, we would be very pleased to receive a not sure what the evidence is that this is a wide-scale supplementary memorandum. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 8 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
Witnesses: Ms Menna Machreth, Chair of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg, Ms Siaˆn Howys, Policy OYcer, Ms Sioned Haf, Campaigns OYcer, Dr Alun Owens, Urdd Gobaith Cymru, and Mr Hywel James, Parents for Welsh Medium Education, Mudiadau Dathlu’r Gymraeg, gave evidence.
Q52 Chairman: (Through an interpreter) Can I powers for the private sector. This, hopefully, will firstly thank you for your written evidence; it was of raise people’s confidence to use the Welsh language. great assistance to us in preparing for today’s Mr James: (Through an interpreter) If I can come in, session. Can you introduce yourselves? I represent a sector where there is a huge growth in Ms Howys: (Through an interpreter) Siaˆn Howys, pupils who go to Welsh medium education, most of Welsh Language Society. whom come from non-Welsh speaking homes, and Ms Machreth: (Through an interpreter) Menna the parents we represent are non-Welsh speaking Machreth, Chair of the Welsh Language Society. parents. This legislation provides the powers in Ms Haf: (Through an interpreter) Sioned Haf, CardiV, and everybody would accept it is reasonable Campaigns OYcer, Welsh Language Society. that that is the place where it should be. The 1993 Dr Owens: (Through an interpreter) Alun Owens Act is limited in terms of what it permits the from Urdd Gobaith Cymru on behalf of Celebrating Assembly to do, not only in terms of the public Our Language. bodies but also in terms of its powers, the powers to Mr James: (Through an interpreter) Hywel James, appoint people to the Welsh Language Board, to representing Parents for Welsh Medium Education, decide if there is disagreement relating to the Welsh again part of Celebrating Our Language. Language Scheme and the interpretation of that by a public body. There have been major diVerences since 1993 in terms of definition of ‘public bodies’. We have had legislation like the Human Rights Act, Q53 Chairman: Can I begin by asking quite a simple which defines what exactly a public body is. We can question. The purpose or objective of this Order, as also see utilities like gas moving into the private far as we see, on behalf of the Welsh Assembly sector and we think it is important that, as public Government, is that the Assembly believes that the funding is used, this legislation should come into purpose is to create a wholly bilingual Wales. Do you that. think, in your opinion, that will succeed, that the Order will succeed in doing that? Q55 Mr Davies: (Through an interpreter) Why do Ms Howys: (Through an interpreter) It is the you think more people are going to use services if intention of the Welsh Assembly Government, and you were to have this LCO in place in the private we are wholly supportive of the objectives, to sector? establish a status for the Welsh language to establish Ms Haf: (Through an interpreter) This is an rights to use the Welsh language and to establish a interesting point raised by the CBI— language commissioner, namely the promise Mr Davies: Do you agree— included in the One Wales document. We are wholly supportive of that and we do not want to see anything being taken out of the Order, but our Q56 Chairman: (Through an interpreter) Can you argument on behalf of the Welsh Language Society please slow down? One person has to speak at a time; Y is that there are a number of other things we would the transcriber is having di culty. One person at a have liked to see included in the Order. time! You will have to say who is going to speak. Who was speaking then? Ms Machreth: (Through an interpreter) The evidence we have been gleaning suggests and shows Q54 Mark Williams: The 1993 Welsh Language Act how incomplete the provision is currently. People do on many counts is failing to provide the protection not know where the services are. It is so fragmented that you would like to see. In what way is the and we have a document here which is full of regulatory framework not encouraging or evidence as to how diYcult it is for people to know supporting the language now in the way that some exactly where their rights are and, when they do try of us would wish? to use the Welsh language, it is very diYcult to do so, Ms Machreth: (Through an interpreter) We believe so we want to present this evidence that we have the contents of the 1993 Welsh Language Act gathered to you as examples of the problems that concentrate on the public sector, and the public people have in trying to use Welsh language day- sector has reduced quite a lot since the 1993 Act and to-day. our lives are being dominated by the private sector, so it is time for people to have rights to use the Welsh Q57 Mr Davies: (Through an interpreter) I know of language within the private sector as well, and 90% farmers who do not speak Welsh at all, who have of us shop in supermarkets, for example, on a weekly used the helplines during the foot and mouth basis and I think that the supermarkets are an epidemic because they knew that it was possible to example of something that has been left out of the get straight through to somebody, to speak to Order. If the creation of a new language Measure is somebody straightaway and they did use the Welsh policy for the Welsh Assembly Government after the language helplines and they were not even Welsh last election in Wales and if they are serious about speakers, so I do not understand how you can say enabling people to live through the medium of that people who speak the language do not know Welsh, then there is a need for powers of Welsh anything about the helplines that are available in the language to be transferred to CardiV, including Welsh language. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 9
23 March 2009 Ms Menna Machreth, Ms Siaˆ n Howys, Ms Sioned Haf, Dr Alun Owens and Mr Hywel James
Ms Haf: (Through an interpreter) I would like to Ms Machreth: (Through an interpreter) I will give come in on this point. In terms of the evidence that you an example first. If I ask the Orange phone the Welsh Language Society has collected, I would company to have my bill in Welsh, they say they do like to give you one example which reflects the not need to, that there is no obligation on them to reason why, as you say, there might be a minority of provide anything to me in Welsh, so that is an people using the Welsh language services. This example where there is no obligation for them to do crystallises the low quality of the services that are it. They just do not feel they have any responsibility available through the medium of Welsh in Wales at to do it, so I am not going to get my bills in Welsh. the moment. This is an example of a lady who went Y into a local post o ce to renew her passport: “I went Q59 Hywel Williams: (Through an interpreter) This to my local post oYce to ask for a Welsh language is a question, if possible, to Siaˆn. We heard a little form last year and I was told it would have to be earlier about the model of demand and supply, and ordered. I went back a week later and there was none that demand is currently very low. Would you agree available. I was asked to call back in another week, that, where it is clear the service is available in Welsh, which I did, but it was not available, so it was for example a county council, a Welsh Language suggested I should visit the Passport OYce website, Society oYcer or recording company SAIN or the which I did, filled in a form, and they were supposed BBC perhaps, where it is clear that provision is to send me the Welsh form. I waited a fortnight, but available, people tend to choose whichever language nothing arrived. I phoned the Passport OYce’s they want to speak, Welsh or English? Welsh language line and I had to leave my number Ms Howys: (Through an interpreter) Yes, I would and wait for somebody to call me back. I had that agree with that. The principle, I would say, that is telephone call back some hours later and explained important in terms of language-planning is to that I wanted them to send me the Welsh form. A equalise the use of Welsh language, that it is week later I received an English form through the something natural for people to use and is available post. I phoned her back once again and, even though on an equal basis. I have worked for a period of time I pressed the button for Welsh language services, a as a social worker in Gwynedd Council and, because girl answered me in English. I explained patiently of its council policy to make it wholly clear that you and completely courteously that I wanted to hold my can receive your services through the medium of conversation in Welsh, and the answer was, with half Welsh as well as you can in English, and we have a laugh, ‘I don’t speak Welsh, but I can help you.’ It plenty of social workers who do provide services was disgraceful, and after I asked if she could put me through the medium of Welsh, it is just as easy for through to somebody who could speak Welsh, she you to receive those services and therefore people use said, ‘No, you will have to phone back. Better luck the language that is natural to them. The principle of next time!’” This is not an exception, this is the norm it being something normal and it being easily with the services in Welsh language in Wales. available is there and it is not fragmented. You do Dr Owens: (Through an interpreter) On behalf of not have to be concerned as to whether it is available Celebrating Our Language, we are here representing in only that small part of the service perhaps and not 17 diVerent organisations where people have decided in another part of the service, so you do not then that they want to join an organisation because it have to worry that you are opting in because it is does oVer services through the medium of Welsh: the available. Therefore, the example that we have in our Urdd, the Eisteddfod, Merched y Wawr, Mentrau evidence, we have over a hundred people who have Iaith Cymru, Ffermydd Ifanc, and clearly there are contacted us just in the last five days since we called tens of thousands of people who have decided to join for evidence, and the examples we have cut right organisations because they oVer services through the across the public sector where there are language medium of Welsh, which shows the demand is there. schemes already, as well as in the private sector, If you walk down the high street in any town and which just shows to me that we have to move forward with the 1993 Language Act. So much time look for the service, the service which is provided is has elapsed. At the end of the day, it is natural that so inconsistent, and people are under the impression the Welsh Assembly Government wants to legislate that it is going to take so much more time, so much in this field, which is something that all states and all more trouble, and people feel second-best really, regional governments in Europe have addressed and asking for these services. That then causes them not have legislated on where they try to permit the right to use the services. We believe that people feel like of people to have, in those countries, the use of their second-class citizens in our own country. language.
Q58 Mark Williams: Returning to the original Q60 Mark Williams: How does the proposed LCO question and the inadequacies post the 1993 compare to legislation in other countries where there legislation, we have heard a lot about the voluntary are language laws? In your submission you talked arrangements that are in place. How dissatisfied are about the experience of Catalonia. Would you say a you with some of those voluntary practices? I do not little bit more about how this compares with their mean the principle, I mean the practicalities of it. My experiences? colleague has handed me some information on the Ms Howys: (Through an Interpreter) We have been banks, HSBC, Principality Building Society,and BT, on trips over to the Basque Country and some and the lack of ease with which you can just click on members have had experiences in Catalonia. We a mouse, it is not there. believe that the language legislation they have there Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 10 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
23 March 2009 Ms Menna Machreth, Ms Siaˆ n Howys, Ms Sioned Haf, Dr Alun Owens and Mr Hywel James is stronger than what you have before you here today Q63 David Davies: (Through an Interpreter) Would because that legislation is based on a clear statement you agree that there are no obligations at the that people have the right to use the Catalan moment to use English, so it is possible to say that we language and the Basque language. In the Basque treat both languages in the same way at the moment? Country, for example, where they have a similar Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) It is possible ratio of speakers to us here in Wales, they have just but we believe that people should have the right to put forward a piece of legislation relating to the receive services and the right to be able to live the rights of consumers, so it does go out into the private majority of their lives through the medium of Welsh sector. They have moved on from the Act of the if they wish to do so. Basque language, which used to concentrate on the Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) I think we had rights of citizens to use the Basque language with better move on from there now. Mr David Jones, government departments, to legislate in the private please. sector. It does not cover all the private sector. It sets out conditions in terms of the sizes of companies, for Q64 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) example, and their location, and indeed I would not Thank you, Chairman. I have a question for the commend that model to you, but what it does do is Welsh Language Society.How would you change the state clearly the right to use those languages. As we list of bodies included in Matter 20.1 of the Act? see it, the legislation in those countries has made a Ms Machreth: (Through an Interpreter) We think V big di erence in terms of people’s confidence and this list is far too limited. We think that the list in this expectations. If you look at the Basque Country, Order either needs to be longer and more V what has made the di erence there has been that comprehensive to encompass all providers of creating this right to use the Basque language with services, goods and facilities to the public, or provide government departments means that you have to a wider wording and place duties to provide V have sta who speak Basque and Spanish and so bilingual services on the people who provide goods, there is a programme of teaching the Basque services and facilities to the public. For example, if V language to those sta . It creates a cycle, if you want the Assembly in the future wanted to add an to go back to this issue of demand, where it is stated additional category they would have to come back clearly that it is available to you as part of creating and go through this process of having another Order, this demand. so it is better to transfer the powers now and let the Assembly decide what kind of Measure they want. Q61 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Would anybody else like to contribute at that point? Q65 Mrs James: (Through an Interpreter) The CBI Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) Can I just say, Wales suggested that we should change the term in terms of Celebrating Our Language, that our “providing services to the public” to the term organisations have come together. We came together “functions of a public nature”. What do you think in 2007, a year and a half ago, as a result of the One about that? Wales document and we strongly believe, as Siaˆn Mr James: (Through an Interpreter) That second said, that oYcial status is required for the Welsh definition of “functions of a public nature” is language and that rights are wholly important so something which lawyers would love to deal with. that people know they have the right to use the What we like about this draft is that there is clarity language. At the moment they do not have that in terms of defining private companies, that it does confidence. That then will safeguard the language as depend on the public money they receive. We are not a community language, and I am sure we will come insisting in this draft that companies which do not back to this later but we strongly believe in provide public funding should have to conform with establishing a language commissioner, which this LCO. It is clear that it depends on this link with obviously comes as a part of this as well, because the public funding that they receive. I believe that people are so unsure about the rights they that can be extended in the long term, but I think it currently have. should be a step-by-step approach to make sure that there is support, and I think there is support in Wales Q62 David Davies: (Through an Interpreter) English generally to what has been recommended here. is not an oYcial language, is it? Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) No, it is not, so Q66 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Let we are treating the two languages equally. If you are us turn now to the issue of goodwill and the possible talking about the right to use the Welsh language impact of enforcing the provision of Welsh language then there are implications as a result of that. There services on goodwill. Over a number of years of this will be a right for people to use English as well. The not being enforced what is your opinion on the situation in Wales is that clearly Welsh is a minority goodwill issue? language which has faced threat over the years Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) We feel that, frequently and by the state on occasion. I think it is yes, goodwill is important, but also important, as we important that it should receive that status and that have said, is the fundamental expectation of having people know they have the right to use it. People do a foundation of services, particularly in public, for not have that confidence at the moment and that is services or telecommunications, because ultimately why we see a demand for the service, which has not it is only a small number of people in Wales that are been as it should be on occasion because people have being touched by this LCO in public services which not got the confidence. do receive £200,000 of public funds, and even then Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 11
23 March 2009 Ms Menna Machreth, Ms Siaˆ n Howys, Ms Sioned Haf, Dr Alun Owens and Mr Hywel James all it does is provide the right to legislate on this and Q69 David Davies: (Through an Interpreter) We then you have to get before the Assembly before it is have spoken a little about this but can I ask ultimately decided. We believe that we have a right something else? If it were possible to prove that to receive those basic services. I still think that some companies were going to leave Wales because of businesses will see the competitive advantages to additional costs, would you, as the Welsh Language oVering more services in Welsh than some other Society, continue to support this measure? people who oVer just the basic services. The more use Mr James: (Through an Interpreter) Can I answer people see made of these services and the more they this on behalf of Parents for Welsh Medium are available the more advantages people will see in Education? You, sir, mentioned earlier about a oVering better ones. telephone number that people could use to go through to the Welsh language line. That means that it is possible to create employment. If you cannot Q67 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Just transfer your services outside of Wales and those to follow on from that, the situation as far as I can services are being forced if they have to be held in see it at the moment is that if the company does Wales to use the Welsh language service then there is provide a service that is an additional cost to that an argument for creating jobs through that. We have then that is a disadvantage, and if the company does seen too many jobs in Wales being moved out. I am not provide it then there is no cost to it and it is not aware of any single situation where a company beneficial to them. That is how the system is at the or a public authority has provided services through moment as far as I see it. It kind of punishes the the medium of Welsh and have decided to withdraw people who provide the services. that. There was a lot of scaremongering in the Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) I think the previous evidence. As we see in the field of argument the CBI had was about a level playing education, there is major support there. We have had field. There is a lot to be said for that. I think that is a situation in CardiV where almost one in five the only way of doing it, really. children now receive Welsh medium education. This Ms Howys: (Through an Interpreter) Unfortunately, LCO and any other legislation is going to raise the voluntary approach does not work particularly people’s confidence, it is going to raise the status of well because as a society we have on diVerent the Welsh language and we will carry on the work occasions run campaigns regarding expanding the that we can see going on in our schools. use of the Welsh language in diVerent sectors, for example, with the supermarkets or specifically the Q70 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Sioned telephone companies where we have gathered a lot of Haf is keen to come in here. names on a petition or we have been able to show Ms Haf: (Through an Interpreter) To come back to that there is a public demand for it at the moment. that point, we have undertaken a survey and asked Only in the last month we have collected a petition this specific question to private companies. We did together for the mobile phone companies and we that in February of this year. We sent a very simple have had an awful lot of names on the petition. We question out to the companies to ask, “Would you were calling for that service and we have withdraw your service in Wales if there were corresponded with the phone companies and the Measures following the Legislative Competence response is clear. The response is, and you can Order calling on you to provide a bilingual English/ receive these responses on paper from companies Welsh medium service in Wales?”. Not one of them like Orange, et cetera, “If we don’t have to do it we came back to us and said, “We are leaving Wales”. won’t be doing it. We won’t be providing a service voluntarily”, so it is only up to a point that doing Q71 David Davies: (Through an Interpreter) With all things voluntarily can work. Also, it does not state due respect, I know that there are a lot of yes’s and this base line. It is not clear to the public. If it is just no’s going on and there are a lot of diVerent ways of a matter of it being voluntary it is not clear what you saying yes and no in Welsh, but would you be can expect. Perhaps there may be some signs in this prepared to support this measure if it were possible branch of the shop but no signs in all places, for to prove that companies would leave Wales? I know example, stating a standard across Wales. you do not accept this but it is a hypothetical question. If it were possible to prove this would you still support this measure as a matter of principle? Q68 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Is Yes, no, however many ways there are to say yes or there a danger that this could lead to a reduction in no? the services available as companies level down? Ms Howys: (Through an Interpreter) No, we do not Ms Howys: (Through an Interpreter) No, we do not accept the premise of the question because we do not believe that. We do not think there is any evidence accept that you should have to choose between showing that. We think that the companies which do languages in the establishing of a business. provide some bilingualism will continue to do so. Language goes with everything else. It is a medium They have done that because of good business sense, of communication so it is an integral part of how we to create an image of bilingualism and to attract do business together. As you say, it is a hypothetical people to their services. We think that that is true. We question anyway. think there is something about creating jobs and Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) The truth of the more employment in Wales which is based in Wales if matter, particularly in this LCO, is that there is no there is an expectation to provide bilingual services. mention whatsoever of any internal administration. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 12 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
23 March 2009 Ms Menna Machreth, Ms Siaˆ n Howys, Ms Sioned Haf, Dr Alun Owens and Mr Hywel James
No companies have to arrange meetings through the Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) I cannot speak medium of Welsh or anything like that as part of the on behalf of all the other organisations, the 17 of us, LCO. The only thing the LCO talks about is the but I think the Urdd has a turnover of some £7 service that it oVers, so if any company wants to be million a year. I think we have perhaps £500,000 part of the market in Wales, if they are in Wales or in from the Assembly, so perhaps 14%, something like England or in America or wherever, all it means is that.1 that they have to oVer the service if they want to get Mr James: (Through an Interpreter) I think it has into the market. If anything, it is going to create just had a grant for one person who is employed by more jobs, because even if they are in Seattle or them but no more than that, just the one person they wherever, if the website has to be translated into employ. If you want to ask me personally through Welsh then clearly it is going to lead, if anything, to my company, I have legal aid work but that would more jobs because it is not going to aVect the running be under the £200,000 threshold. of the business at all, just the service it oVers in the country. Q75 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Can I then ask a question to close? It is a historical question in Q72 David Davies: (Through an Interpreter) If there a way. Back in the 1980s the Welsh Language Society is a demand in the private sector for a service, will were keen to use a famous slogan, “Without a that create jobs which are profitable for the language you have no work”. I felt that in your company? If there is no demand then will you be creating jobs? Yes, you would be but those jobs are evidence today you were very keen to show that you going to cost the company money and they are going are not keen to destroy any posts or jobs. Can you to look at this and perhaps decide to go to England explain, not in a historical manner but perhaps more instead to put their headquarters. broadly, the fact that you have realised and Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) If they want to anticipated what questions were going to come up do their business in England they can be in Wales about the destruction or the loss of jobs? Can you and do their administration in whatever language say anything to confirm that you have been doing they wish. All they have to do is provide the service some research into this question? in Welsh if they want to sell in Wales and if they want Ms Howys: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, we have to get into the market, so it does not aVect the taken this issue seriously. That is why we undertook company externally, internationally or anything like the survey with companies to ask them if they would that. All it means is that if people want to make use be leaving Wales or not as a result of language of the market in Wales they have to oVer an element legislation and you have heard Sioned already saying of the service in Welsh if they are one of the 1% of that the response from those companies was that companies which are aVected. they would not be withdrawing from Wales, and we feel that is important. We have also looked to two other countries in Europe that have introduced Q73 David Davies: (Through an Interpreter) Let us language legislation. We have already talked about go back to the first question. If it were possible to Catalonia and the Basque Country which are very prove that companies were going to leave, would successful areas economically and there is no you still support this measure? evidence of companies withdrawing from those Dr Owens: (Through an Interpreter) I take it that the areas. We have emphasised the importance of the LCO transfers powers to CardiV and then there fact that, as we see it, work would be created in needs to be a discussion in the Senedd in CardiV, and Wales, and, as Hywel talked about, we tie into the I think if there is any possibility that it would mean losing jobs then that would be an important part of numbers of children who now receive Welsh medium the discussion that would happen in the Senedd. education. We believe that those children will grow Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) One moment, up and take the language with them to their please. We are now starting to discuss the Measure workplace. What is needed is more opportunity for and we do not have the right to do that. I understand them to use that language in their workplace. In where the question is coming from. I am very sorry; terms of us as an organisation, for a number of we now have to stop for a second because there is a decades now we have understood that if the Welsh vote. language is going to survive it has to have a strong The Committee suspended from 5.38 pm to 5.48 pm economic base. It is a community language and for a division in the House therefore this is not just about individuals’ rights as Chairman: (Through an Interpreter ) The next Welsh speakers. On the contrary, we want this question is the final question and it is from Mr legislation for everyone in Wales so that everyone in David Davies. Wales can have access to the Welsh language because historically the Welsh language has been opposed. Y Q74 David Davies: (Through an Interpreter) When David Davies talked about there being no o cial we started today we made statements of interest and status to the English language. There is de facto I think it is very important that members who have status. There have been acts which have refused come here say how much public funding they receive people the right to speak Welsh, and we want to from the Assembly or from the Senedd, if I can ask 1 Note by witness: The Urdd accepts £670,000 annually from them please? the Welsh Language Board, our total grants from councils Ms Howys: (Through an Interpreter) We receive no etc. amounts to just over £1m which is about 14% of the money. annual turnover Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 13
23 March 2009 Ms Menna Machreth, Ms Siaˆ n Howys, Ms Sioned Haf, Dr Alun Owens and Mr Hywel James change that situation and we want to change it on all atmosphere at the camp is one of the things that fronts—as a social language, as a community really sells the camp and we have people from all language and as a language for individuals. parts of the world visit us; we had lots of Irish people staying with us at the weekend. Without a doubt, the Q76 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Can fact that there is a Welsh medium atmosphere there I ask each of you how much experience you have and people can hear the Welsh language in the centre personally of business in the private sector? and the camp really does count for something with Mr James: (Through an Interpreter) I will answer the people who come to stay with us. It is seen as an the question. I have a solicitors’ company of my own advantage. and I employ, between two oYces, 20 people. I represent, as part of my business, a number of Q78 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) private companies as well, a number of businesses What about Welsh Language Society oYcers? which are proud to have their businesses in Wales. Sioned? Some of them do provide Welsh medium services; Ms Haf: (Through an Interpreter) We have been part others do not. To go back to this importance of of the Welsh Language Society, we have been in concentrating on the fact that there is growth in the touch with a number of companies in the private language and that depends on economic growth, sector, we have had meetings with some business within Parents for Welsh Medium Education we see managers in Wales and personally I have worked in the importance of having status for the Welsh the private sector as well for three years. language but also new schemes which are now coming through in terms of location of education in Q79 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) the Welsh medium sector. It is important that we Menna? create people who are trained to be nursery Ms Machreth: (Through an Interpreter) I am a assistants, for example, or to be secretaries in oYces, student so I have not started in the world of work yet that there are people who have children and other but I have worked for private companies in part- people who can see the importance of the Welsh time posts in the past. language. Ms Howys: (Through an Interpreter) I work in the public sector as a social worker but I have not Q77 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Dr worked in the private sector. Owens? Dr Owens: I work for the Urdd movement, which is Q80 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank you a charity,but I have run diVerent camps in Glan Llyn all very much for your evidence. It has been very and CardiV and we are expected to make a financial clear and we welcome the way in which you have surplus to run all the other activities in other areas. discussed and dealt with the experience. If you feel We have a turnover of £1 million in Glan Llyn and I that you have not had fair play here—I think think £600,000 in CardiV.2 We are expected to make everybody has had fair play today—we would £100,000 surplus for running the organisation and I welcome any additional evidence if you wish to must say that we have to run it as a business to all submit it. Thank you very much. intents and purposes, and without a shadow of a Ms Haf: (Through an Interpreter) I have got doubt the fact that there is a Welsh medium something to hand over to the Committee at the end. Can we leave some information with you? 2 Note by witness: We have a turnover of over £1 million in Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, of course. Glan Llyn and a turnover of £600,000 in CardiV Thank you.
Witness: Mr Hamish MacLeod, Chairman, The Mobile Broadband Group, gave evidence.
Q81 Chairman: Could I ask you for the record to telecommunications in the proposed Legislative introduce yourself, please? Competence Order. Do you see a need for any form Mr MacLeod: Good afternoon. I am Hamish of legislation at all on the Welsh language? MacLeod and I chair The Mobile Broadband Mr MacLeod: The reason we expressed our answer Group. the way we did was that we felt it was up to the other sectors that were identified to speak for themselves, but basically our position is that we do not support Q82 Chairman: Can I apologise to you for the delay legislation on the private sector for the provision of but I hope that you appreciated the circumstances Welsh language services. and that you heard the evidence and found it worthwhile. Mr MacLeod: Yes, thank you very much. Q84 Chairman: In your submission you say that voluntary encouragement would be much more beneficial for the language. What evidence do you Q83 Chairman: Could I begin by asking you about have to confirm that? your group? Thank you for the written evidence. It Mr MacLeod: It seems to me the strategy so far has was very helpful in preparing this session, quite clear, been about promoting in practical and and we note that you oppose the inclusion of proportionate ways methods by which the private Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 14 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
23 March 2009 Mr Hamish MacLeod sector can be encouraged to facilitate the use of Q88 Mr David Jones: To what extent has the group Welsh language in the workplace. I have read the been involved in consultation on the terms of the Welsh Language Board’s strategy for the private proposed Order? sector, which talks about awards and assistance with Mr MacLeod: I have to confess we have come to the training and such measures, which seem to me subject really quite late. I think it was late February perfectly reasonable and as far as we can see are when I was alerted to the issue by my members, so bearing fruit in that interest in and support for the just in time to meet the deadline of 4 March to Welsh language over the last few years has been prepare written submissions. I do not know the rising. answer to that question on how much outreach there has been. Although we have come late it is Q85 Hywel Williams: Mobile operators are generally interesting to note that we are one of the few V international companies, so what has been their industries that is potentially a ected by this experience with language law in other countries? We legislation and has prepared written submissions. I heard evidence earlier on from the Welsh Language do not quite understand why that is the case. Society, amongst others, so what has been the experience elsewhere? Q89 Mr David Jones: What is your understanding of Mr MacLeod: I cannot pretend to be an expert on the sorts of additional services that companies the comparative experiences internationally but I operating in the telecommunications sector might be have been looking into this matter around Europe. required to provide as a consequence of this Order or Switzerland is an example that springs to mind. My any Measure that might flow from it? understanding is that what is done in a bilingual Mr MacLeod: Let me deal first with the networks context there is done voluntarily. In Ireland there are themselves. I have tried to set out in my evidence no requirements on private businesses to do things what potentially treating English and Welsh on the bilingually and, as I understand it, not an awful lot basis of equality would involve for us in terms of is done. In Belgium there is a lot of legislation about how we would provide customer services, how we the provision of bilingual services into the French would provide international phone services and region. What seems to be unusual about this retail services in terms of the phones we sell in stores, particular legislation though, perhaps even unique, so quite a complex range. I acknowledge there is a is that it picks out certain business segments within second stage to this process which is all about the the private sector for legislation and we are not quite Measures, but I thought it was only fair to the clear on what basis those lines were drawn. Committee that I set out the full panoply of possibilities. That is the point of pre-legislative Q86 Hywel Williams: There are other legislatures scrutiny, to get all the issues onto the table and which do this. For example, in Catalonia last year thrash them around. I may have to refer to the actual there was an agreement signed between the document to look at the phrase. As far as other Generalitat and the manufacturers, Nokia, services which relate to any of those services are Motorola, et cetera, and also a number of other concerned, that in our sector is potentially very wide companies, such as Vodafone, Orange, and others indeed, and I was surprised to hear the previous which would provide software, many with predictive evidence that only 1% of companies would be text dictionaries, building help lines, et cetera in aVected. For example, as everybody probably Catalan to be implemented by December 2008. I realises now, phones are not just about making have just been told that. In that particular situation telephone calls any more. They are about providing it appears that there is a statutory agreement lots of content services, lots of search, et cetera,soif between the government and a wide range of mobile those companies fall into the bracket of providing operators and the people who produce the hardware. services that relate to those services they will be Do you know anything at all about that and have caught by the legislation and that is very many you come to any conclusions from looking at it? companies, I would suggest. Obviously, we Mr MacLeod: I have asked for the information on distribute mobile telephony through our own Spain, I am looking into it. I have not yet received it, branded stores but we also use lots of independent so I can perhaps follow up with a note.3 dealerships to sell telephony services. It is not just Carphone Warehouse and Phones4U; it is lots of Q87 Hywel Williams: I am sure the Committee little booths on high streets selling international would be grateful. I do not know if you have any phone cards and top-ups and SIMs and all these information about the situation in Ireland, for things. They potentially will be covered. As you may example, where Vodafone provides a good deal of know, two-thirds of the market is pre-pay their services through the medium of Irish and in fact subscriptions and they have to top up their phones their adverts for those services were nominated as periodically and we have a very extensive network of being one of the best last year. There seems to be petrol stations and newsagents and what-have-you another situation there. which can provide that service, so are they covered? Mr MacLeod: Yes, but my understanding is that it is These are things which I am very glad to have the not required by legislative Measures. opportunity to air. Hywel Williams: I could go on but I accept what you say. Thank you. Q90 Mr David Jones: Could I refer you to paragraphs 21 and 22 of your submission to the 3 Ev 103 Committee? You have drawn attention to the fact Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 15
23 March 2009 Mr Hamish MacLeod that section 35 of the Government of Wales Act uses heard a lot about demand from the other two the words “both appropriate in the circumstances positions earlier on. What is your perception of and reasonably practicable”. demand? Mr MacLeod: Yes. Mr MacLeod: Honestly, it is quite small, I have to say. The tenor of our evidence, I hope, conveys the Q91 Mr David Jones: You have just outlined what fact that none of this is impossible. It presents us your concerns are, for example, as to the potential with lots of practical diYculties but it is about impact upon small businesses. Do you feel that the making choices, about how our limited resource is inclusion of those words or words similar to those in allocated in ways that benefit Welsh consumers the LCO might assist small businesses which might most, and I have to say that this is not our current otherwise be adversely impacted by this legislation? perception. The top three are low costs, good Mr MacLeod: I have to confess I am not 100% coverage and a wide variety of handsets. confident of the legal construction as to how this would work. Q98 Mark Williams: Have any of your group done Q92 David Davies: Nor are we. any work on that specifically? I appreciate the thrust Mr MacLeod: Where it puts the treatment of the of what you are saying. Welsh language on the basis of equality, whether this Mr MacLeod: I suppose there are two, possibly is conferring that sort of flexibility on the three, sources. They survey their customers on what Government to do other than provide services on the their hotspots are in a fairly open way and this is not basis of equality, I do not know. It is not clear to me. one that comes up. They monitor the calls coming into their help desk. We receive hundreds of millions Q93 Mr David Jones: The point I am making is, of calls a year and this is not something that appears would the inclusion of words such as those give any on the radar as something that is severely lacking in additional comfort? the provision of our services. Mr MacLeod: I think it is something that the Committee should look at, certainly. Q99 Hywel Williams: In terms of your members Q94 Hywel Williams: That comes from the 1993 generally, if they provide something does that then Welsh Language Act where the Welsh language provoke a demand usually? Do they first look if there needs to be treated on the basis of equality “where it is a demand and then provide it or do they is reasonably practicable and appropriate in the speculatively provide content and then that circumstances”, which is the current legislative promotes demand? context. Mr MacLeod: There is certainly some truth to that. Mr MacLeod: Okay, and you would see that that Who, before mobile phones were even invented, would definitely apply in those circumstances too? knew there was any demand for them? What we are trying to say here is that 20% of the population is a Q95 Hywel Williams: I think, to quote Dan Lewis, I very significant proportion of the population. They do not think anybody would want to be are very capable of expressing their preferences unreasonable or impracticable in the provision of through the choices they make and we see the very Welsh language services. heavy-handed supply side of regulation as a poor Mr MacLeod: We need to be sure that the substitute for that sort of process. Again, our construction provides for that. understanding is that support for the Welsh language is rising. The numbers of children being Q96 Mrs James: If “telecommunication services” taught in the Welsh language are rising, so this will were removed from the scope of the LCO as a flow through into demand. If there comes a time separate category would any of your member when low cost and big coverage are not the companies still be covered by the LCO because they preferences and in fact a lack of the Welsh language fall into other categories? provision is the sticking point, then we think that Mr MacLeod: I do not think so. That has not been private companies would respond to that. brought to my attention. One measure that was discussed fairly extensively earlier on was, “Are you in receipt of £200,000 of public funds?”. As you will Q100 Hywel Williams: I appreciate that your see from our evidence, we have not come to a policy members, quite rightly, have to take commercial view on that particular measure and as far as I know decisions but would you concede that in the it does not apply. I have to say though that I do government there has been a certain social policy to question whether that measure is necessary because promote bilingualism as per the Act which might not if you are free to give organisations money you have be valued and ruled by those commercial a lot of negotiating power, so I feel it would be more considerations but might in fact want to plan for appropriate to negotiate that on a case-by-case language, given that the average age that children get basis. a mobile phone now is eight, apparently, and between the ages of five and 15 there are 40.8% of Q97 Mark Williams: Would you indicate what level children in Wales who speak Welsh, whereas in my of demand for Welsh language services there is age group, alas, it is 15.6%? It might be the case that within the telecommunications sector? We have the Welsh Assembly, as this is a permanent transfer Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
Ev 16 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
23 March 2009 Mr Hamish MacLeod of power, might be looking to a situation later on Q104 Mrs James: Do you consider that those where they might need to pass Measures because of companies which already have an operational base in the emerging generation. That is a possibility, is it Wales would be at an advantage in the provision of not? new Welsh language services? Mr MacLeod: In the future, but I would say that it Mr MacLeod: That is an interesting question. Would is just as likely that the market will get there first and you be a bit more specific? Would Google be at an that would be the best use of Wales’s resources and advantage if it was in Wales? I do not know. the private companies’ resources. Q105MrsJames:TheywouldhaveWelshspeakersas part of their staV. They might not have a formal Q101 Hywel Williams: The point I am making is that language policy and they might not be Welsh this is a permanent transfer of power into the speakers; they might be people who are Welsh foreseeable future and if we were in a situation where learners. They may well already have had lots of the Assembly needed to take further powers they correspondence on this and be aware of the needs of would have to go through this process again, language. apparently, and that might be something of a MrMacLeod:IamnotsurethatIamparticularlywell distraction. enough informed to give you a direct answer to that Mr MacLeod: I see that, but to me this measure but if you would not mind I will address a tangential smacks of, “There should be evidence that there has problem. Not all mobile operators have customer been significant market failure to provide what the service helplines within Wales. T-Mobile have one in population needs”, and I really do not think we are Merthyr Tydfil, but, obviously, if there were Welsh at that point yet. You also asked me about the language obligations, for example, to answer the transfer of powers. In our evidence we suggest that telephoneinWelsh,thebusinessesthathavecustomer it would be very diYcult to ring-fence the impact service centres in Darlington and Glasgow and these within the Welsh market. We are a regulated places would presumably have to recruit somebody industry. We have a national regulator which sets all who spoke Welsh. We certainly have questions in our sorts of what it calls general conditions in the way we mind arising as to would this then require us to provide our services and there is definitely potential exercise positive discrimination employment for the regulatory authority to be impacted upon by practices rather than concentrating on what we the requirements that may exist in Wales. normally do on the technical requirements of Hywel Williams: I have just a brief request, therefore. operating a customer help desk for mobile telephony I did mention the situation in Catalonia. Could you and would we have to employ people just because possibly provide us with some supplementary they spoke Welsh? Those are practical problems. evidence as to how technically that is done in Catalonia? I know in your submission you point to Q106 Mrs James: But they are communications a number of diYculties in providing it within Wales companies and in this day and age when mobile in the context of the UK or even international communication is so easy one could imagine you markets. If you could tell us how it is done in having a section that would be dealing with Welsh Catalonia we would all be very interested indeed.4 language issues which would not necessarily have to be based in the same place as your other support services. Q102 Alun Michael: I just want to tease out the Mr MacLeod: Yes, of course, I agree with that, but it juxtaposition of the regulation of the industry which would be employing people, and the number of you referred to. Ofcom also regulates broadcasting people who speak Welsh in Darlington or wherever where there are a lot of language requirements on who would even be prepared to move to somewhere broadcasters. Have you as an organisation had any like that fromWalesmight be very limited,so it would discussion with Ofcom about the interface between present us with practical problems. the proposed LCO and the general industry regulation? Q107 Hywel Williams: There are moves within Mr MacLeod: No, I have not had any formal industry for large competitors to co-operate on discussions with Ofcom on this topic and I certain matters. There has been a deal between understand they do not have a formal position, but Vodafoneandoneoftheircompetitorsrecentlyabout we have written to BERR, one of their sponsoring developing the software so that there are industry departments, to draw their attention to our evidence standards. Do you foresee any possibility that, and the potential impacts that we see this having. should your sector come in under a future Measure, operators would be able to co-operate and provide this sort of service on a more cost eVective basis? Q103 Alun Michael: Yes, but the Department for Mr MacLeod: Just today O2 and Vodafone did Business is not the regulator. announce just such an agreement to do network Mr MacLeod: It is not the regulator, but it is the sharing so that the roll-out could be done more cost sponsoring organisation. Perhaps we should be eVectively and more quickly, so there is a precedent having formal discussions with Ofcom about this. for such groups, although I have to say they are Alun Michael: Point obviously taken. fraught with diYculties around prospective Chinese walls and such like. They are not without their 4 Ev 103 complications but they are feasible. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:58:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG1
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23 March 2009 Mr Hamish MacLeod
Chairman: Thank you very much for your patience as if there is anything else, in the light of what you have well as your evidence this afternoon. I think that we heard today, that you wish to respond to then we have pretty well covered everything. Welook forward would be very pleased to hear from you. Thank you totheadditionalevidenceyouwillprovideuswithbut very much. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [SE] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
Ev 18 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
Monday 30 March 2009
Members present Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair
Nia GriYth Hywel Williams Mr David Jones Mark Williams Alun Michael
Witnesses: Ms Meri Huws, Chair, Mr Meirion Prys Jones, Chief Executive, Mr Gwyn Jones, Director of Policy and Terminology, Welsh Language Board, gave evidence.
Q108 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Good to do with the Act? Is that what you are saying, and afternoon and welcome to the Welsh AVairs Select it is solely down to the success of education, Committee. Before we begin could you introduce particularly in the Welsh medium schools? yourselves to the Committee? Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I think the Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I am Meri answer to that question really makes you look at Huws; I am the Chair of the Welsh Language Board. having an understanding of linguistic planning. In Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I am looking at language planning there are numerous Meirion Prys Jones; I am the Chief Executive of the influences and it is not possible to diVerentiate one Welsh Language Board. from the other. Legislation is part of that jigsaw. The Mr Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I am Gwyn status that comes from legislation is important in Jones; I am the Director of Policy and Terminology terms of a change in attitude and therefore change in at the Welsh Language Board. demand for services in the Welsh medium education side by side. Education is extremely important. It is important it is done through partnership. It is all Q109 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank down to being a part of the jigsaw. That is what the you very much and a very warm welcome once legislation is and I do not think you can detract from again. Could I begin by asking quite a simple the fact that it is there and it is part of the jigsaw. question? Why is the current Welsh Language Act no longer adequate in your opinion? Q111 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Could Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) May I thank you describe the support or can we measure the you first of all for the opportunity to present this support from this demand for additional legislation? evidence. As a Board which was established under Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There are two the Welsh Language Act of 1993 may I firstly say ways of looking at that measure. We can see a change that we see significant strengths to that legislation? of attitude in Wales; that is a qualitative aspect. If we Fifteen years on in implementing this Act we now look at quantitative evidence recently we had an feel as a Board that there are certain weaknesses in opinion poll from the BBC which showed that 47% terms of implementation of that legislation. We of the population of Wales were calling for would like to draw attention to that. Also there has additional legislation; 29% felt that there was no been a significant change in the landscape and need for legislation. In terms of the quantitative linguistic demography of Wales. So it is purposeful evidence the demand is there. Certainly there is also and timely to reconsider the legislation. We have qualitative evidence and there has been a significant seen a significant change in the census, which was change of attitude in Wales. reflected in the 2001 census in terms of the numbers of Welsh speakers; there has been an increase from 18.7% up to 20.8% of the population of Wales. We Q112 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I have also seen a significant change in terms of choice will just follow that up then by asking if there was a of language medium for education. During the majority of non-Welsh speakers who were in favour decade between 1996 and 2006 there was an increase of getting new legislation? Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, that is true. of 10,000 young people in the Welsh medium education system; today there are 82,000 young people receiving their education through the Q113 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If medium of Welsh so the linguistic landscape of this proposed Order goes through and then leads to Wales has changed. The Board also feels that there Measures, I would like to talk about Measures. In has been a change of attitude in Wales and it is your opinion how will this Order lead to a more V appropriate therefore for us to reconsider a piece of e ective situation in terms of how it compares to the legislation which was purposeful and extremely current legislation? strong. It is now time for us to reconsider that Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) If we look first legislation. of all at the experience of the Welsh Language Board and the weaknesses that have become evident from the 1993 Act, in looking at new legislation we can see Q110 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Do you the weaknesses and the main weakness of the 1993 feel then that the growth in the language—the Act from the board’s point of view is that we have development that you have described—has nothing capacity under section 17 when evidence is found Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
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30 March 2009 Ms Meri Huws, Mr Meirion Prys Jones and Mr Gwyn Jones that a public body is contravening the requirements National Assembly after we have looked at things of their own Welsh language scheme. We then have here. Have you currently looked at the international the right under section 17 to undertake a review of precedents on the sanctions regime that could be the situation and we can hold an investigation. What used? we do not have as a board is the ability when Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) We are recommendations are made to actually implement coming back to the fact of course that there is no those recommendations upon the body under mention of that in the Order. If you would like us to section 17. The Legislative Competence Order in answer that question then I certainly will do. In front of us here raises a number of questions which terms of looking at other countries, I think what we I think may be appropriate for us to look at and raise can see, in terms of evolving the legislation, that Acts some of the questions that we as a Board need to do evolve to include elements relating to sanctions. consider as we look at the LCO. Those elements do diVerentiate quite significantly from context to context depending on linguistic Q114 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I history and legislative history of those countries, so was just wondering what enforcement methods from time to time it is diYcult to compare, but that should perhaps be used in your opinion to make sure said, there are two other language Acts which have that any legislation is more eVective than the current been created and which are based on the Welsh situation. Language Act, namely the Gaelic Language Act in Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I am not entirely Scotland and the Irish Act in Ireland. So there are sure that that falls within the Legislative similar situations. However, in terms of the process Competence Order; I think it is a matter for of imposing sanctions, experience in Scotland is very legislation itself when that period of time comes. The new and the Irish experience is that they have Welsh Language Board would feel that there is a established a language commissioner’s oYce and the need to have the ability to implement the language commissioner is now beginning the process recommendations of any investigation. of going after bodies who do not stick to their language schemes. At the moment I do not actually Q115 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I believe that they have taken that process to its was looking at the memorandum which has been extreme. We are aware, of course, in other countries drafted by the government and they do talk about such as Catalonia, the Basque country and also the powers in sections 94 and 95 of the 2006 Act. Quebec that there are systems in place in those Their opinion is that the LCO is not going to go any countries which do impose sanctions but on the further than the 2006 Act. Would you see eye to eye whole these sanctions are not heavy sanctions. I with that? think that what is important within that process Y Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I must say that from what we can see is that o cial attention needs that is not an issue that the Board has considered. We to be drawn towards shortcomings if they are made have comments about the Legislative Competence in the legislation rather than actually imposing Order but we have not considered it in the context of sanctions in a heavy-handed manner. the 2006 legislation. Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) In terms of Q119 Mark Williams: Why do you believe that the the power that we currently have I think we refer to list of bodies in Matter 20.1 should be increased and the 1993 Act not to the 2006 Act. what is your rationale for proposing those included in your written submission? Q116 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) In looking at the referred to sections 94 and 95 of the 2006 Act, could draft Order before us we welcome the bodies that you perhaps look at that and send us some further have been named. In terms of feeding into the debate information, please. we feel it is important to consider other types of Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, we are bodies—those you have just referred to, the banks— happy to do that.1 because they oVer services of a public nature. We have referred to insurance but insurance alone Q117 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If should be compulsory; everybody has to have car we look at this from a diVerent way, does the Order insurance so we feel that that should be included for include eVective sanctions as it has been drafted? that particular reason, because it is compulsory. In Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There is actually looking at public transport we cannot see any reason no mention within the Order of that. why we should diVerentiate between a train service and a bus service. I think that consistency in this Q118 Mark Williams: Has any work been done on issue is very important and also we feel that we need the eVectiveness of sanctions elsewhere in the world? to have a debate about the content of the We have heard in Ireland there is the capacity for a infrastructure as well for transport such as a station. fine to be imposed on a non-compliant public body. Is there a diVerence between a station and the bus on It has not been utilised which I guess is a success, in which you may be travelling? It is about consistency; part, of language policy in Ireland. Notwithstanding that is what is important and that is why we have what you say about the place where the Measure included the issue of public transport infrastructure would be decided on, it would obviously be the as well. In looking at the major centres and the big leisure centres we also believe that they are buildings 1 Ev 119 which are bodies oVering a service of a public nature Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
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30 March 2009 Ms Meri Huws, Mr Meirion Prys Jones and Mr Gwyn Jones and therefore they should be considered within the Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, we Order. I think it is important in considering the have had that discussion but strangely enough when Order that we should bring into the discussion other you look at these companies in Britain it is almost as bodies as well that could be included so that we can if they are reflecting the fact that there is one strong have the debate. language in use in Britain. Once those companies actually get out of Britain then they oVer these Q120 Mark Williams: (Spoken in English; not services quite easily. I think the question that we are recorded) asking is, what is the problem? You do this in other Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) That is countries, why are you not able to do it here? extremely important. We have also seen a discussion relating to the use of the Welsh language and the use Q124 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) The of Welsh medium services. Again we would argue, as CBI suggested in their evidence that we should a Board, that consistency is extremely important. change the phrase “providing services to the public” Consistency also raises levels of confidence in users and use the phrase “functions of a public nature”. to use to the Welsh language. It is not an exception; What is your feeling on that? it should be considered to be available. That is why Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Certainly we feel that other bodies should be considered and as a Board we feel that there is a better that there should be consistency created in services understanding needed of the term “functions of a providing bilingual services. public nature”. We have looked at the legislation behind this and there is a reference in the 2006 Q121 Nia GriYth: (Through an Interpreter) Equalities Act and before that in the 1998 legislation According to your paper the proposed Order, as has to “services of a public nature”. There is no currently been drafted, would not have any eVect on legislative definition of that at the moment so we 99% of the private sector in Wales. Just last week the acknowledge that. What is important to us, Mobile Broadband Group did raise concerns with us accepting that there is no legislative legal definition about the lack of clarity, particularly in relation to of it, is that we are trying to encompass those bodies the impact on the telecommunications sector. They which are visible to the public oVering in their terms think the impact could be much wider than this. a service which is of a public nature; the customer, Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) If we look the user, that is what is important here so that they at the telecommunications industry to begin with can see the service as being one of a public nature. then, I think if we look at telecommunications That is why we have added to this list names of businesses worldwide we will see generally that they people who could be included potentially in the operate not bilingually but multi-lingually. It was powers of the Order. interesting to see the provision, for example, of Vodafone on a global level and we picked up on an Q125 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) example that Vodafone provided services in Providing services to the public appears in the 1993 Icelandic. There are a number of other companies as Act and also in the 2006 Act. In the period since the well, for example in Italy they oVer English, Basque, 1993 Act was passed has anybody asked the question Catalan and Galician. These are all worldwide; these or brought a case in terms of the nature of the companies oVer a variety of languages. There was definition of the phrase “providing services to the even a company based in India which oVered seven public”. African languages, a number of languages from Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) No, it has India and also Catalan, Galician and Basque. So it not happened. is clear from the telecommunications industry, particularly with mobile phones, that it is quite a Q126 Nia GriYth: (Through an Interpreter) CBI simple matter for them to actually provide a vast also told us last week that they did not support any range of languages. From our standpoint what we aspect of compulsion for private companies, that are looking for is something quite simple which is the bilingual provision should be demand-led and that use of what you can see on the telephone screen, also there is insuYcient demand for Welsh language a certain amount of the service that you receive and services. What is the situation then? What is the perhaps, in due course, we may be looking for current level of demand for Welsh language services? something more complex like a telephone bill, but Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) It is very even now most people receive their phone bills on the diYcult to answer that question in a quantitative phone itself. We are looking for something simple. level but I think it is worth stating this in a historical There is adequate evidence here on a global level that V context very briefly. The English language has these companies are more than used to o ering these obviously been the oYcial language to all intents and services in a vast variety of languages. purposes in Wales for decades and centuries. We have seen significant change in terms of the Q122 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Are there landscape of the Welsh language over the last any companies using Welsh? century. Since the middle of the last century we have Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) No, no seen a growth in the field of education to which we companies use Welsh at the moment. have already referred. That has now been normalised. Very slowly we are seeing a change in Q123 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Why not? terms of the Wales language in employment and Has the Welsh Language Board not asked them to? work and that is a significant development; that Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
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30 March 2009 Ms Meri Huws, Mr Meirion Prys Jones and Mr Gwyn Jones happened significantly at the end of the 20th century Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) That term is one because of linguistic plans. What we are now seeing which emanates from the 1993 Act and we is an increase in the services. That change is acknowledge from that period of time. What is significant but we have to understand the important is that services, where they are oVered in psychology also of the user. Very slowly people are both languages, should be of the same quality, of the starting to use that as it is becoming normalised. One same standard, of the same accessibility and that is thing which is very important is that those services how we define the basis of equality. Equality of should be consistent and that comes back to a point service in both languages is fully equal and fully which has already been made. Consistency is consistent. That is what has been implemented and required in terms of services where people can use the is being implemented successfully following the 1993 Welsh language. These services need to be marketed Act. Here we should acknowledge that we as a Board and we have seen a significant change for example acknowledge the constitutional problems and with Carmarthenshire County Council where they legislative problems which emanate when we do start marketed their telephone lines. There was then an to talk about oYcial status. We acknowledge that increase of 50% in the use of that language service in that discussion occurred back in 1993 and continues a very short space of time. In the same way Dwr to be part of a discussion. What is important to us Cymru Welsh Water have gone through a similar and for the user is that those services are consistent process and it is very important that we see that and are equal in both languages. demand and use are the product not only of provision but the product of something which is far Q129 Mr David Jones: There is oYcial status now more complex. It is a confidence, it is the product of for the English language. How do you address the practice and usage and of normalisation, not just the constitutional diYculties? Do you think it is issue of provision leading to demand and vice versa. appropriate to include this provision “on the basis of Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I think it is equality” within the LCO? worth breaking the myth in terms of lack of Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) As a Board we understanding around why there is no demand. It is acknowledge the constitutional diYculties that completely evident and obvious in terms of linguistic emanate from that but we do not oVer any solution planning and, by comparison with other countries, to that. I think it is a matter for those people who will why there is no demand: there is no tradition, there be drawing up the legislation and for constitutional is no pattern, the service is not available fully and experts to deal with. therefore very slowly I think we can expect this to happen. There is no mythology; it fits the pattern of Q130 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Are other countries and other languages quite clearly. It you looking forward to having a language does take time—a long time—to change practices. commissioner for the Welsh language? We are talking here in the context of the Wales Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) Again there is question about first of all 1947 in Welsh schools—60 no reference in the Order. years ago, not really far oV my age—during that period of time this landscape has changed Q131 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) But completely. The change in practices which come there is in the memorandum. back now from the middle of the 16th century do take Ms Huws: I think there is a debate to be had once far, far longer to embed. and if the Legislative Competence Order is accepted in terms of structures which are appropriate for Wales and which build upon the successes and Q127 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Can strengths of the 1993 legislation. I ask your opinion about the provision of services? Do you think it is better to try to change the service itself so that it is bilingual at the point where the user Q132 Mr David Jones: (Spoken in English; not meets the service or is it better to have the service recorded) Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) As I said, I think separately so one can have a Welsh one or an English V one and if anyone wants to go to the Welsh one that there is a di erent discussion to be had they can? following the period of the Legislative Competence Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I think we Order in terms of structures which are appropriate are going quite far oV the issue of the Order here. We for the Welsh language. As a Board there are no are talking here about practices and customs in strong feelings in terms of a commissioner, a terms of how somebody actually goes about oVering commission or a board appropriate for the Welsh language; the prosperity of the Welsh language is our a service. We would argue here that there is a variety consideration. of services that can occur and that there is no one response or one solution to this. Part of the strength of this is that one could oVer a variety of ways of Q133 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) oVering a service. What about the future of the Board? Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) Again this is a discussion which is to follow after the period of the Q128 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Legislative Competence Order. The one thing I How do you interpret the term in the Order dealing would refer to I think is the growth that has occurred with the Welsh and English language on the basis of in terms of the Welsh language. Since 1993 there has equality? been a small contribution made by the Welsh Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
Ev 22 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
30 March 2009 Ms Meri Huws, Mr Meirion Prys Jones and Mr Gwyn Jones
Language Board to that process through promoting for education through the medium of Welsh and also the Welsh language and again I feel we have to have there is now increasingly an acknowledgement or this discussion about appropriate structures and recognition of the use of the Welsh language in jobs. purposeful structures. We have to have that in the The de facto status is extremely important in terms future after this period has passed. of linguistic planning and raising confidence in the use of the Welsh language. Q134 Mr David Jones: (Spoken in English; not recorded) Q136 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Can I Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) The Legislative close then by asking the final question about Competence Order belongs to the Welsh Assembly freedom to use the Welsh language? It is the Matter Government. We saw a copy of it a very short period 20.2. In your written evidence you discuss this issue of time before it was laid before the Assembly. in quite a lot of depth—the freedom to use the Welsh language. Is there a lack of clarity do you think? Q135 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Do How can you define this better in the Order? you feel that it is necessary to have a statement that Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There are Welsh is an oYcial language? I am thinking back several extracts of the Legislative Competence Order here to the clear statement of Sir Wyn Roberts when which struck us as being weak. This is certainly one he said that the Welsh language is an oYcial part of it. Freedom is a very diYcult concept to language in this country but it was stated that actually translate into legislation. It is far easier to English is also an oYcial language. What do you feel translate rights. I am not sure of any other legislation about that? relating to freedom so I feel—and we, as a Board, Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There is a feel—that a stronger definition of freedom would be fundamental diVerence between a de jure status— useful whether it be a move in terms of semantics or legal status—and as a Board we acknowledge the an understanding of rights, but we feel that this is problems which can emanate from that weak as it stands. constitutionally. We can also see the importance of a Chairman: There are no other questions so can I de facto status of the Welsh language that should be therefore thank you very much for giving your visible, it has been visible since the 1993 Act. evidence this afternoon and also for your written Certainly in terms of our understanding of linguistic evidence. If you would like to submit any further planning it has fed use of the language, confidence in evidence to us in written form we would be very keen the language and a status for the Welsh language in to receive it from you. Thank you again very much terms of people requesting services, people asking for coming today.
Witnesses: Ms Non Rhys, Wales Policy Manager and Ms Nia Davies, Wales Policy OYcer, Federation of Small Businesses, gave evidence.
Q137 Chairman: Welcome to the Welsh AVairs energy to individuals. The Assembly has a pretty Committee. Could you for the record please robust strategy for anaerobic digesters, for example, introduce yourselves? in place for 2012. A lot of these could potentially be Ms Rhys: Non Rhys, Wales Policy Manager, family farms producing this energy so a bit more Federation of Small Businesses. clarification with regard to exactly who would come Ms Davies: Nia Davies, Policy OYcer, Federation of within the scope of that. Small Businesses. Q140 Nia GriYth: Following on from that, are you Q138 Chairman: Thank you. Thank you for coming happy with the list of bodies on which duties can be along today and also for your written testimony. imposed? Do you think it clearly excludes small Does the Federation of Small Businesses support the businesses from the scope of the LCO? transference of legal responsibility for the Welsh Ms Rhys: As I have just mentioned, once the detail language to the National Assembly for Wales? of the Measure is in place, reassurances that small Ms Rhys: The vast majority of our businesses believe and medium enterprises who we have been assured that the power should rest with the Assembly. are not being incorporated into this are obviously excluded, especially with regard to the couple of Q139 Hywel Williams: Looking at the proposed things we have mentioned. LCO itself, will it enable the Welsh Assembly Government to provide more support for the use of Q141 Nia GriYth: So your position is that you the Welsh language in business in your opinion? definitely want to see your members excluded. Ms Rhys: The LCO itself, as far as we can see, will Ms Rhys: From a practical view point the majority have a minimum impact on the day to day running of businesses in Wales would not be aVected by this of small and medium enterprises in Wales. The only and it would be very diYcult. However, 28% of our question we have is on a better definition of services membership state that they are able to deal with each to the public and also with regard to energy it could other or customers through the medium of the Welsh aVect production of energy rather than just the language already and 59% say customer demand is service providers that would actually be selling the the main thing that would encourage them to Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
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30 March 2009 Ms Non Rhys and Ms Nia Davies produce bilingual services. So they would respond to Ms Davies: Before the LCO was announced we that. Of course there is a lot of potential within actually met up with ministers down at the Assembly SMEs (Small and Medium Enterprises) already for and we were reassured that the LCO was not aimed use of Welsh not through any measure but through towards SMEs. In the earlier stages we were support and encouragement. We would like to see actually assured. the Welsh Language Board being able to oVer more practical support for SMEs to do that. Q147 Mark Williams: Do you think as an organisation you have been successful in reassuring Q142 Chairman: In the Federation’s view then is the some of your members about that? You alluded to provision of a monetary threshold for those bodies your meeting with the Minister of Heritage that you which would fall with the scope of the Order had. Have you got that message through to your appropriate at the LCO stage, and is the sum members? We had a very lively meeting with my appropriate? federation and there were obviously concerns about Ms Rhys: To be honest, the £200,000 for our SMEs this; there is an important message there to get out. would be a huge amount; that would not aVect the Ms Rhys: We have obviously been surveying the majority. Ninety-one per cent of our members have membership quite closely with regards to these issues a turnover of less than one million so that puts that and obviously listening to individuals as well who sum of money into context really as far as small and are dealing with procurement contracts et cetera medium enterprises are concerned. We have no where there are clauses already in there for bilingual members with a turnover of more than five million, services through local authority contracts as well as for example, either. That threshold is not something individuals who naturally use both languages on a we are disputing. day to day basis because of where they are located. I think it is something within SMEs as they are part of all our communities that happens naturally and Q143 Mr David Jones: There is of course a provision, depending on the sector or location of the business. as we have just been discussing, that bodies in receipt of more than £200,000 in any financial year should be subject to the terms of the LCO or the Measures Q148 Mark Williams: More generally in the debate that might flow from it. In terms of grant aid, to what we are having, has the Federation, notwithstanding extent would small businesses be receiving public what you have said about the assurances the money in excess of, say, £200,000 for a particular Minister of Heritage has given to you, looked at project? I am thinking, for example, of hoteliers or some of the other countries and the experiences in V other business people who receive grant aid from other countries of small businesses as to the e ect of either the Welsh Assembly Government or from language policy? some other public body. Ms Rhys: No, we have just been concentrating on Ms Rhys: As I have just said, that sum of money our membership. would be a phenomenal amount for the majority of SMEs to receive within Wales. If our businesses are Q149 Hywel Williams: We have been told that about in procurement contracts it will be through a local a third of your membership is located in the retail, authority or NHS or some sort of educational hospitality and tourism sector. What do you think institution. the impact of the LCO would be on these industries? Ms Rhys: As far as we can see there would not be an Q144 Mr David Jones: I am thinking more in terms impact. What we would like to see is support and of grant money actually. I come from North Wales grants available by the Welsh Language Board for where, especially in places like Llandudno, a lot of these, especially that sort of sector which is quite small hotels do receive grant aid from the Wales visual on our high streets, to be able to produce Tourist Board or VisitWales as it now is and bilingual signage and for the new business support £200,000 would not go a significant way towards model as well, to help make these new businesses upgrading a hotel in Llandudno. Do many of your aware of the services and the support available. members receive grant aid at that level would you say? Q150 Hywel Williams: Some businesses in my Ms Rhys: Not that we are aware of. constituency produce material only in English and others produce material in Welsh, English and Q145 Mr David Jones: Do you represent small hotel several other languages. Some of those say it gives a businesses? unique character to the services they provide, Ms Rhys: Yes, we do. A lot of our membership especially hotels. Have you had any of that sort of would be directly or indirectly aVected by the tourist feedback from your members? trade but also we have businesses from all sectors. Ms Rhys: Of course there is anecdotal evidence saying what the advantages or disadvantages are. What we would welcome is some coherent research Q146 Mark Williams: How involved has the into this so that if there are advantages tell businesses Federation been in the consultation with the that, show businesses that, give them evidence of National Assembly Government in terms of the this. That is what is going to encourage them to use drafting of the proposed Order? it. If there is a competitive edge that could be Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
Ev 24 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
30 March 2009 Ms Non Rhys and Ms Nia Davies produced from using bilingual signage or materials Q156 Hywel Williams: I was thinking in terms of the then any smart business would actually work in businesses captured by the £200,000 level rather than that way. small businesses. I am interested in your broad observations on the whole idea. Q151 Mr David Jones: Are any of your members Ms Rhys: The majority of our membership would be operators of sub-post oYces? indigenous Welsh companies with one premises so it Ms Rhys: We have very few postal services and post would depend on where they are based rather than oYces and telecommunications services as members; being able to compare with other businesses they it is about 0.3% of our membership so it is very, have across the border or in any other country. It very small. would not make a diVerence because of the nature of the businesses that we represent. Q152 Mr David Jones: I was going to ask you about mobile phone retailers as well. Do you have any of Q157 Nia GriYth: Do you think that the current those among your membership? Order will contribute to the mainstreaming of Welsh Ms Rhys: We have not had any feedback from any language issues with general business advice? You members with regards to that. talk about a lot of your small businesses in appropriate areas naturally using it rather than Q153 Mr David Jones: The competence would having it imposed upon them. Do you think the extend, of course, to the provision of postal services Order itself will do anything to make it more of a so what impact do you think that the Measures that priority for any of your businesses? flow from the LCO would have upon your members Ms Davies: I do not think anything would actually who happen to run sub-post oYces? come from the Order. The point we are making is Ms Rhys: From the survey mentioned of that in terms of business advice if there is any help or membership there would be hardly anyone aVected grants available to help SMEs use the Welsh at all. We have not had any feedback from any language that should be fed through the new individuals who would be aVected. business structure in Wales so that businesses can better use that. The trouble we have found is not Q154 Mr David Jones: Hardly anyone aVected many businesses were aware of the Welsh Language because you have so few members? Board grants or the help that could actually support Ms Rhys: Yes. businesses. What we are saying is that if there is support and help there then that should be shown to Q155 Hywel Williams: We have heard from other the businesses so they can actually use Welsh. bodies such as the CBI in terms of businesses that Businesses would choose Welsh if they knew what would be aVected by the LCO. They put great store help was available. on creating a level playing field, that every business should be required to do the same thing at least to a Q158 Alun Michael: Turning to Matter 20.2 which is certain level. What do you think of this? I the competence over the freedom to use the Welsh characterise that as people who do actually provide language. In what circumstances do you envisage services in Wales are penalised because they have to that that might apply to the small business sector? spend; the people who do not say they will not Ms Rhys: As we have had explained to us, it is because they do not have to. I think there is a literally the right of two individuals to speak Welsh perverse incentive therefore not to provide in Welsh. to each other within the workplace. Obviously What is your view in providing a level playing field? common sense would dictate if they were meeting or Ms Rhys: If you are trying to provide a level playing it would be more relevant for the working practice field between a small business and a large business day to day to be run through the medium of English then there is obviously going to be disparity with then people would obviously naturally do so. We do regard to the ability to produce materials and pay for not see an issue in that whatsoever. that and the costs absorbed are going to be diVerent Chairman: Thank you very much for your evidence so it would not create a level playing field with regard this afternoon and also for your written evidence to all businesses. which was very helpful in preparing for this session. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 25
Witness: Ms Ann Beynon, Director, BT Wales, gave evidence.
Q159 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Good providing mobile phone services or terrestrial afternoon. Welcome to the Welsh AVairs Select services should come under the Act. That is my Committee. Can I begin by asking a simple question: interpretation of it. Of course BT currently provides does BT support the transference of legal significant services in the Welsh language. We responsibility for the Welsh language to the National provide a customer service centre in Bangor; we Assembly? provide a very good telephone inquiry service and Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, it does. we have several services in the Welsh language. We are very proud of what we do. The fundamental point from our standpoint is that because we do all Q160 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Why? of these things, it is not acceptable for us to see other Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is natural companies being permitted to do less. What BT that responsibility for a national language in Wales V provides should be a benchmark for the industry in should happen in Cardi . That is where the decision general I think. should be taken.
Q164 Mr David Jones: If telecommunication Q161 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Secondly, services were removed from the scope of the LCO will the proposed LCO enable the Welsh Assembly into a separate category, do you think that BT would Government to provide more support for the Welsh still be covered by this because it falls into some language in business. other category? Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) No, I do not think that is the case. The fundamental problem in my opinion is the lack of use of the Welsh language Q165 Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) generally. Certainly the evidence that we have has Another category? It describes receiving more than been of low levels of use of the Welsh language. In £200,000 of public funding and I do not quite our services and in speaking to other services the understand what that means. We would be paid experience seems to be similar across the board. money for government services, so is it the income What I would like to see happening—which is even that counts or does the £200,000 refer only towards more important than legislation specifically in my a subsidy? I am not entirely sure. If we were to be opinion—are moves to promote the Welsh language caught through that then it would be equally through the life of Wales in general, through business unacceptable I would say. and through the community and through the field of education. I think there is a problem in terms of linguistic skills amongst Welsh speakers and learners Q166 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) and there is a problem of confidence in the use of the Does BT provide a public service then in your Welsh language outside of the home environment opinion? and outside of a specific area. Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) We provide a service to our customers. We provide a service to small businesses. We provide a service to Q162 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) BT is now government bodies. If you define that as a public a successful company on a global level. What is your service, it is a service to customers. That is what we experience with language law in other countries? provide; that is how I would look at it. We serve Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) In other customers. countries our business tends to deal with major companies or with government bodies. We do not retail in other countries so the only experience we Q167 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) have of languages in other countries is through You referred in passing then to the level of £200,000. dealing with governments directly as a major I myself do not quite understand how it would customer so we do not have the experience that we operate, say, in 10 years’ time when the issue of have in Wales of dealing with a broader market of £200,000 could be worth less. Is there a discussion do retail and wholesale. you feel or a debate amongst telecommunications businesses about this? Is there any understanding of what exactly this means to shed some light on it? Q163 Nia GriYth: (Through an Interpreter) In your Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) The only thing evidence you state that the proposed LCO should I can say is that the issue of £200,000 has not come treat BT and its competitors equally, so they should up specifically in my discussions in the sector. It has be dealt with in the same way. Which of your come up in my discussions with the voluntary sector competitors do you feel are not impacted or aVected because there are several charities who receive over by the LCO? £200,000 and it is a very, very diYcult time for Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) My charities to take on additional costs, so it has been understanding is that any company which provides raised with me only really through the charity side. telephone services—mobile phone services or They are very concerned about it. It has also been terrestrial phone services—should all come under touched on by some unions who have asked if they the Act. I also take it that companies providing are going to be included in this because the trades internet services should come under the Act. It is a unions receive subsidy from the National Assembly very broad range and it should all be included. All for training in the workplace, for example, and one the mobile phone companies and any companies of the Welsh language schemes that we are very Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
Ev 26 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
30 March 2009 Ms Ann Beynon pleased about is that we are working with the CWU materials or you have to have a public meeting to and, through a subsidy for training on the workplace discuss the scheme. We do not know and because of from the Assembly, we have a scheme to train our that I do not exactly know what supplementary or staV in the Welsh language; they volunteer additional services there may be. All I can say is that themselves to learn Welsh. This afternoon in within BT what we do is review our voluntary Newport John GriYths, the Deputy Minister for scheme on a consistent basis. We are currently Skills at the Assembly Government, is handing out reviewing it and amongst some of the things we are certificates in Welsh to BT employees who have currently looking at is how to improve our service volunteered to learn Welsh and they have learned for the world of business. We have two companies Welsh through a project which is being funded by the who currently work on our behalf. We have changed Assembly and BT and CWU have supported. So you the system of providing services to small companies could argue that the CWU also receives money from through a franchise system so we are looking to see the Assembly for that. It is not entirely fair then that what they can do. The second thing that we have they should be penalised for that. been looking at has been what we do for our staV. We have an annual staV review within BT and this V Q168 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) year for the first time the sta have asked if it can be Some people, for example the Welsh Language done in Welsh and it is done around the world so that Society,favour bringing the private sector in, that we everybody who works for BT can have the option if should actually measure it in terms of how much they would like to have it in Welsh. So that is directive is provided to the public, some kind of grid additional. What we would tend to do is to add if you like. You are a big company and you provide things as we see the demand arise. It is diYcult for very many services to the public. Perhaps if you are me to be more specific but because we do not know a big service and you do not, then you would be out. exactly what services will be set within the Order we What is your opinion of how it is divvied up? do not really know what we can do in addition to Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is very that. That is our confusion. We do not know what it diYcult to know where you draw the line because the is going to cost BT; we have no idea. market is changing all the time. There are many major companies—just as big as BT—in the sector who do nothing at the moment. There are small Q171 Mark Williams: Perhaps the Assembly will companies, and if maybe you suggested that the come up with a Measure in due course, but how smaller companies should be drawn out of the Act much consultation have you had with the National then where do you draw the line because the smaller Assembly regarding the LCO specifically? companies can actually grow to become big Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) We have had companies and the big ones could shrink to become several meetings, formal and informal, with smaller. I am not sure where you draw the line; that is ministers directly just as BT and also through the part of the problem, how do you actually define the CBI. We have made every eVort to try to understand sector? The definition as I currently see it is actually and try to contribute and to work in partnership. We quite comprehensive, it includes both large and would like to see the Welsh language prosper and our small companies. concern is that the legislation is not going to create that prosperity; it will be other things that create the prosperity. We have tried to suggest to the Assembly, Q169 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Do for example, that they create a project around the you have any other definition then apart from this issue of language brokers so that in the community issue of £200,000 that you could propose? there may be individuals who are tasked to go out to Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) No, I am help language aspects in schools, with older people, afraid I cannot oVer any other. people with young families, et cetera. We have suggested that. We have suggested marketing the Q170 Mark Williams: You mentioned this earlier on Welsh language; we have suggested schemes within but you might like to say a little more. What is your the workplace which would commit the company to understanding of additional services that companies make sure that we and our people are trained or operating in the telecommunications sector would encouraged to undertake these skills. So we have be required to provide? Getting away from the suggested all of these things; we really have tried generality of whether telecommunications should be extremely hard to be positive so that we do things to in the LCO at all, what are the deficiencies in the help the Welsh language in all opportunities. I am current system in terms of language provision. perfectly clear in my mind that we have done Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) What is very everything we can to try to persuade people that diYcult for us is to understand what we need to do. legislation can be a waste of resources, can draw When the Act or the Measure—when the Measure is attention from the entirely essential thing, that the actually created—will it define exactly what services situation of the Welsh language continues to be we have to provide? That is part of our problem, we fragile and in a situation where the language is do not understand. We have not had an explanation fragile what we should do is support that language of what services will come under the Measure. Is it in the community, in the workplace and that is more going to include that you have to have a call centre important. The energy and resources should go into or you have to have a certain number of written doing that and not just legislation. 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Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 27
30 March 2009 Ms Ann Beynon
Q172 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I spent some £85,000 promoting that service. We saw wonder if it is possible to discuss the principle of the an increase of up to 10% in the use of the language LCO without thinking of Measures. Hypothetically but that was from a relatively low level. I think we what is your opinion, without going into too much need to push that figure up again through depth about implications? What do you think here? collaboration with the Assembly to promote the Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) BT would Welsh language services in general and increase prefer to operate a voluntary scheme. We do not awareness of the services that are available. The level want to be included under any Measure or any Act. is lower than I would like and I think from what I That is very simple. understand experience generally is similar in other companies but I cannot speak on their behalf.
Q173 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Q175 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Following on from that then, if you look at Looking at the 118 404 service, is that an adequate voluntary measures, you acknowledged earlier in measure of the demand do you think? your evidence that BT is part of the Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is a hard telecommunications sector which makes a measure, if you like. We can say quite specifically contribution. Do you think that is a measure of how many telephone calls are received; how many success? Do you think that is enough? are calls from terrestrial lines and how many come Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) I would go from mobile lines. There is something like 65% from back to the point that Welsh speakers have to insist terrestrial and 35% from mobile lines. We do have on receiving Welsh language services and that the hard figures and we can see what they are and we responsibility is on the public sector to give the skills could do something similar for the telephone service and the confidence for people to use the Welsh where you can phone up to order your phone, for language. That is more healthy because ultimately example, in Welsh. So we can do that as well. I have the Welsh language has to be a living thing which not been keen to publish the figures to be honest needs to be relevant every day, which evolves every because I think they are not too encouraging. day.It has to be used consistently.That is why I think it is healthier that it should be voluntary. However, Q176 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) My we would ensure that strict measures should be put question regarding demand is in two parts. If the in place to improve and increase use of the Welsh demand is not particularly high, is that not proof language. We would suggest that there should be that the voluntary method is not particularly expectations on a body like the Welsh Language eVective? Secondly, there may be some people who Board, for them to receive specific targets, for would be keen to know about linguistic planning. example skills through the medium of Welsh, a Perhaps the vast majority of them would say that it number of community activities which are provided is not a separate discrete service that is the most through the medium of Welsh and they should then eVective it is perhaps a service which has been tied in report against those targets on an annual basis to an to a general provision rather than a separate service. Assembly committee and say quite clearly what goes Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is very on, what the situation is in terms of the Welsh diYcult to tie in anything to our general services language. From what I understand at the moment because our general services are run on a whole the only target that exists is to increase the number Britain-wide level so splitting them out would be far of Welsh speakers or the percentage of people who too complex and I do not think it would be an can speak Welsh from 20% to 25% by the next equally good service. The Welsh language service is census. I do not think that is going to happen. Is the very good; they perform particularly highly within target fair? I do not know if it is fair either. So what our service levels and they are very eVective. The is a fair target to measure an activity? We need staV are extremely good. I do not think we would something out there at a grass roots level that really actually be able to create a system whereby we shows an increase in the use of the language. That is integrated everything into one. what I would like to see and it is diYcult. That would create a situation where there would then be a Q177 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I do demand and a draw for the Welsh language rather not want to take up too much time and draw too than it being pushed. much on the Chairman’s patience, but you have said Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Hopefully the two things there. Your demand for service, which is record will show that it was somebody from Plaid a discrete service under the voluntary system, is not Cymru actually started this discussion. particularly high; it does not generate a high demand. Then you say that you cannot actually tie it in because of the demands of your company. Is it Q174 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) a voluntary option to go down the route of a discrete You mentioned the level of demand for services, service or one which has been enforced upon you what level of demand is there at the moment within because of the nature of the business? the telecommunications sector? Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) No, what we Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) The number have done has been to create an identity for the of people who use Welsh language services are lower Welsh language service. We have promoted the than I would like. We have promoted the 118 404 Welsh language service very hard in order to ensure service quite a lot over the last 18 months and we that people feel that they have something special for Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:49 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
Ev 28 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
30 March 2009 Ms Ann Beynon them; the Welsh speakers have something which is Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is the specifically for them. I think that is going to be more responsibility of the other companies to provide acceptable and appealing than something which services through the medium of Welsh. We do so; we works through a system which would have to be do what we should be doing. We cannot decide what quite mechanistic really because you have to press a they should do. lot of buttons to ask for a Welsh language service or whatever, whereas with the current service you just Q181 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) It is go straight through to the Welsh language service so V the principle of the LCO, that it includes everybody you do not have to go through lots of di erent and in including everybody there would be a buttons and lots of voices. responsibility upon them to actually provide things. Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) If the measure Q178 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If I went through. Ensuring that the whole range of can go back very quickly to providing services in the companies which are included in the definition actually achieve the needs, that is going to be a very, medium of Welsh, do you think that that is a Y commercial advantage to companies? very di cult process and a huge challenge. Is it worth the trouble of trying to implement legislation Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) I do not think which will be very, very diYcult to implement? It is it is. I hope that we do two things, that we do provide going to take a lot of time and energy to get the a service for customers who wish to use our services whole sector to accept that that is what should but that we also show that we, as a company, have happen. We could use that time and energy to a social responsibility and that we can see the Welsh promote the services which currently exist and in language as having an importance in the life of seeing that increasing then perhaps the others Wales. We would like to do that for two reasons, not would follow. just for the commercial reason. What we have said in our evidence is that we believe that there are ways in which public bodies can state through their Q182 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) procurement, that there is a commercial advantage Unfortunately you were not here earlier on when the to be had. At the moment we can strengthen that Welsh Language Board said that the requirement within the procurement system. We can say, “If you that they would have would be very simple and also oVer Welsh language services, as long as everything they referred to other countries across the world else is equal, the fact that you have a Welsh language where provisions in several languages are very service is going to help you to attract business”. common place. Ireland has services available in Irish There is a document which has been published by and adverts available in Irish, et cetera. Where does central government and we make reference to where it lie with you, then? Is it very diYcult to include that is suggested for all kinds of equalities within everybody who provides services or, as the Welsh commercial companies. I do not think there is a Language Board says and experience from other commercial advantage at the moment, no, countries shows (Catalonia, India, Italy), is it unfortunately. relatively easy? Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) I would like to understand what the simple process is because Q179 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) nobody has been able to explain to me what this You do provide a high level of services according to simple process is to begin with. I would not accept the evidence you publish. Considering that you do that Ireland is a particularly good example because reach much, much higher than is expected, if you I do not think the Irish language is a language which like, why are you against being included? is currently prospering unfortunately. Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Because we do not understand what the additional cost would be, Q183 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) We what the advantage would be to our customers and are talking about provision. to what extent that would enable us to provide better Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Yes but the services. The danger is that if there is a low diYculty is actually measuring the provision. That is benchmark then the services would be lesser. That is not suYcient. You need to actually measure the use another danger. If the other companies in the sector of the language and the use of the provision. What is are authorised to have reached the objectives of the important is the actual use of the services. That is Measure and the benchmark is lower, then it true for the public sector as well. How many services obviously means that our services may decline. Who provided by the public sector are actually used and knows? So the aim is to make sure that we do the best how many make a diVerence? It always comes back we can. to the measurements. There has to be an understanding of what measurements should be in place and we can all then see what they are and we Q180 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If can ensure that there is a reporting against those on there is a benchmark for every company then they an annual basis. We should see that there is a genuine would all be competing on a level playing field. You eVort made and if we cannot see that an eVort is are saying about a low level of provision but the being made then we need to change it. We have to reality at the moment is that you have provision and work very, very hard to make sure there is an nobody else has any. increasing use. Processed: 02-07-2009 18:59:50 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG2
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 29
30 March 2009 Ms Ann Beynon
Q184 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I do Q185 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Can I not want to go into too much detail about linguistic close then in asking the final question in relation to planning but the Welsh Language Board also said freedom to use the Welsh language. This is Matter that it is not a simple matter of linguistic planning. 20.2. In what situations would you anticipate this Some people may say that measures which impacting BT? concentrate on the demand and need is perhaps Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) At the where you look at linguistic planning. Do you put a moment if anyone who works for BT wants to use lot of emphasis on the demand? the Welsh language then there is support for them to Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Yes I do do so, as I earlier described, even to learn the Welsh because I do not see there being enough emphasis on language within working hours. Any customers or that side. The balance, if you like, is very imbalanced any persons who wish to communicate with us in and I would like to see some kind of indication at Welsh we of course welcome that. If anybody wants least that there is a genuine thinking going on on the to hold meetings with us in Welsh we would welcome side of need. Is there any plan even being discussed that. We respect people’s rights to wish to use the to increase levels of skills? Are there any marketing Welsh language and we do everything we can to help schemes genuinely being planned or discussed? I am them and promote and facilitate that. To me it is a not aware of any.So my uncertainty continues unless matter of respect and of equality. I can actually see indications that something is Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank you very happening on this side of the balance rather than just much for your evidence. You were very clear and the other side. very eloquent, if I may say. Thank you. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [SE] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Ev 30 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
Monday 20 April 2009
Members present Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair
Mr David Jones Hywel Williams Alun Michael Mark Williams Albert Owen
Witnesses: Mr Bernat Joan i Marı´, Secretary for Language Policy, and Mr Jordi Bosch i Garcia, Secretary for Telecommunications, Government of Catalonia, gave evidence.
Q186 Chairman: Croeso, welcome to the Welsh Q189 Alun Michael: Accepting the value of seeking AVairs Committee. We give a warm welcome to you consensus first, there are always some people, some today for agreeing to come here to assist us in the organisations, that do not want to be part of a examination of the Welsh Language Legislative consensus. What sanctions or measures are applied Competence Order from the Welsh Assembly.Before to ensure there is compliance, and how eVective have we begin, could you introduce yourselves for the you found these to be? record, please? Mr Joan i Marı´: Of course, when you have a law Mr Joan i Marı´: I am Bernat Joan, Secretary for there are penalties for those that do not allow this Language Policy of the Catalonian Government and law, to accord with this law. But in our case we prefer a former member of the European Parliament. to put the accent on the facilities. We never penalise (Through an interpreter): The welcome was in Welsh someone who does not oVer services in Catalan, I think! never, in the first step; but we always provide the Mr Bosch i Garcia: My name is Jordi Bosch. I am means to do it in Catalan. We have improved many, Secretary for Telecommunications and Information many kinds of means. We have automatic Society of the Catalan Government. Thank you very translators, we have courses of Catalan online; we much for inviting us. have correctors via computers, and we have direct assessment to enterprises. We directly operate with Q187 Chairman: Thank you very much. The Welsh them. It makes possible avoiding these sanctions. AVairs Committee visited your country recently and This is our policy. we gained a great deal of information when we met with representatives of your government and various Q190 Alun Michael: Are you saying that you have representatives of the creative industries. Can I begin never had to use the sanctions? by asking you a very straightforward question: how Mr Joan i Marı´: In less than 1% of cases where eVective has legislation in Catalonia been in someone announces that this person has not been ensuring that citizens are able to live their lives able to use Catalan somewhere. bilingually or in whichever language they wish to use? Q191 Alun Michael: I accept entirely that you are Mr Joan i Marı´: We have in Catalonia two oYcial talking about a very small number of cases, but that languages, as you know: Catalan and Spanish. in that less than 1% what sanctions are used and how Citizens are allowed to act in their lives publicly and are they applied? privately in each language according to their wishes. Mr Joan i Marı´: Some economic sanctions, but The aim of the Catalan Government is to assure the usually they are not so important, and usually we do possibility to act normally in one or another not arrive to the sanction. That is the rule. language, and the capability to do it. It means that everybody is allowed to do it and that the Q192 Mr David Jones: You mentioned that both government has to provide the services in both Catalan and Spanish have oYcial status in languages. Catalonia. How are those oYcial statuses governed? Is there an individual, a commissioner or some other Q188 Chairman: Generally speaking is the oYcial who is responsible for administering that legislation you have in Catalonia supported by the oYcial status? public and businesses? Mr Joan i Marı´: A secretary of the government, and Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes, I think so, and I am sure that that is myself. day by day that is clearer, because we have been looking for consensus always before improving Q193 Mr David Jones: So you have responsibility in legislation. I mean, we have operated in a proactive respect of both languages? way with the public sector because there are rights Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes, in respect of both languages for the citizens as consumers; but not only for this and on language policy in general, also language reason but because there is also an opportunity for competences of people. We want to have citizens this public sector. When we act with them we try first able to speak three languages or more, and it means of all to find consensus, to find agreement with that everybody has to know Catalan, Spanish, enterprises, with all the sectors, and afterwards then usually English, and if possible one language more. we operate in our language policy. It is the individual package of language for each one. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 31
20 April 2009 Mr Bernat Joan i Marı´ and Mr Jordi Bosch i Garcia
Our responsibility is to act on the capability of Mr Joan i Marı´: I think we have to answer both speaking several languages of the whole population because it is a little bit wide, and I think it is very of Catalonia. interesting, this question, because you give us the opportunity to speak about what is our language Q194 Mark Williams: You touched on the issue of policy. First of all, we act as providers of knowledge enterprise and how you have relied on the approach of Catalan in the lifelong learning framework. It of consensus and collaboration, but in your means we teach Catalan to adults through the submission you talked about a legal framework in consortium for language use. This year we have place. To what extent legally is private enterprise 111,000 students in Catalonia. We provide courses obliged to provide bilingual services in Catalonia? for instance in restaurants and in hotels just to teach Mr Joan i Marı´: We have made a diVerence people who work in these enterprises, without any according to enterprises, because it is not the same charge for the enterprises—paid by the government. when an enterprise is very small, less than five We have 22 centres for language use all around people. Another thing is medium enterprise—and Catalonia, all around the territory, and all the another thing a big enterprise. To provide services in enterprises can go to these centres and ask for our Catalan for a small enterprise is diVerent than if the services. It means if one enterprise wants to have its enterprise is a big one. We put the stress on the fact documentation in Catalan and it is not sure that that only big ones have to have the services in their Catalan is so good to make the documents, they Catalan. There are no sanctions usually, never, for can go to us and we provide this service. As I said, small enterprises, because we prioritise helping them we have automatic translators. We have courses and have a proactive attitude. We have to make online and all these technological means. We also possible the compatibility of language rights of our have a network of workers for our language centres citizens, because Catalan and Spanish are both that work directly with the enterprises, at least one oYcial and then citizens have the right, as for each centre. It means that a great amount of our consumers, to have services in one language or in workers in the secretariat for language policies are at another as they wish. We have also the responsibility the service of the enterprises, and through of dealing with enterprises and not disturbing their technology also. usual way. Then especially with the small and Mr Bosch i Garcia: From our responsible point of medium enterprises we have a proactive policy of view this is a telecommunications and information helping them in order to provide services. society. We take everything including the Catalan language into IT devices or new technologies. We are working basically in three areas. The first area is to Q195 Mark Williams: So the definition you are using make demand visible. We are showing companies in terms of the applicability of the rules and whether that Catalan is a business opportunity. Catalan is a you are using a more robust legal approach or way of diVerentiating their products in the Catalan collaboration is based on the number of employees market and we are showing manufacturers, big per company; or would it be an issue of how much companies, for instance in the telecoms sector— those companies are in receipt of public grants? Nokia, Motorola and all the big manufacturers and Mr Joan i Marı´: It is one of the criteria, number of the main telecoms companies, that there is a demand employees. Then we have to think also about people in Catalonia of having Catalan included in to whom the service is given. It is not the same as, for telecommunication mobile telephony devices. As example, a private school; then put a kind of oYce there is a market the first one to provide this service about investing. This is one of the essential public is going to get the market, so we are talking to the services with a high social and direct value; then companies in terms they understand, not in terms of Catalan is to be there, necessary, and if not we can have a little bit more flexibility. Citizens as language by language but in terms of language by consumers have the right to have services in Catalan. money, by business, by market creation. That is the first point. The second point is that we avoid non- visible investments. It could be a policy to invest or Q196 Mark Williams: Again, notwithstanding what to help companies by paying part of the product. It you have said about the flexibility of your approach, is a policy. It is a second policy, which is making the how specific is the legal framework in terms of product cheaper to the final customer—in this case inclusion, the legal framework that governs it? Catalan—but we are not working on these two lines; Mr Joan i Marı´: There are concrete points attending we are working in distribution channels and we are to this fact. I think you have it. You asked for a brief working in promotion. We are working in showing summary of the legislative framework and we have which products are available in Catalan and meeting provided you. I think you can concrete these main demand and oVer. So that is where we are investing issues on this framework. our money and our eVorts. We are also trying in all the segments to convince the leader. If you convince Q197 Hywel Williams: Thank you for your the leader, then the second, the others follow. So we submissions, which are very substantial. Can you tell are attracting the key companies in each segment the Committee a little bit about the services that you and each market and we incorporate Catalan, but provide to businesses in order to enable them to we have also a translation service support for new provide services to the public? I was very interested words. In technology, in the universe every day we in the section entitled Tools and Resources for are meeting new words, normally all of them in Communication of the Optimo Service. English, and we need to find the right way to Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Ev 32 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
20 April 2009 Mr Bernat Joan i Marı´ and Mr Jordi Bosch i Garcia translate these words from English or from whatever and the second point is that you are in compliance is the language into Catalan. The service is with the law. It cannot be the other way round. At supported by Mr Bernat Joan. Basically the policies the same time it is not a good approach to talk to the to the enterprises to incorporate Catalan is showing companies that we have a law frame that we need to them that including Catalan has a competitive talk about. You can tell that the first time and after advantage and makes the market bigger and makes this you keep this in the folder; if you start discussing Catalan—I think you received this leaflet, and I it, then what is the right approach to get into what think this is a take-away of our policies for you want—companies make more money and from enterprises. the Catalan point of view make Catalan usage more universal in the information society. Q198 Albert Owen: You mentioned earlier on that there was very little need to have sanctions. In regard Q200 Albert Owen: Moving on to the Welsh to the private sector you say it is mostly done on proposed Order, it lists categories of bodies which consensus and collaboration, although there is a have a duty in the future, rather than listing actual legal framework. Do you think a purely voluntary companies and categories themselves. Do you think approach would work? Why do we need a legal that needs greater clarification? Does it need to be framework if many small companies—if there is clearer whom this applies to in the private sector in little need for sanctions? particular? Mr Joan i Marı´: As much as we try proactively to Mr Bosch i Garcia: I do not understand the question. make Catalan a strong language in the enterprise world, Catalan becomes more and more a positive element for business. Possibly it should not happen Q201 Albert Owen: The Order lists categories rather if the legislation should be based only on than individual specific groups of businesses. Do you voluntariness. At the beginning of the process it think there needs to be greater clarification as to who takes more than 25 years, and we have now this year it applies to, rather than say a company that receives the celebration of 26 years of the first language act, government grants will have to have it; or do you which was just after Franco’s death and the starting think it is suYcient? Do you think we need to have of the democratic regime. It is nearly 30 years of greater clarity? language policy, and we have the experience that Mr Joan i Marı´: I think, if I am allowed to say, that when we only apply voluntariness the feeling is that each place is each place and each government is each something local, if you mean some colourful government. We try to do the best in our context in regional issue, but not a real statement. For this our country, and we are sure that you are the best reason we have to have normal laws with sanctions. ones to know what has to be done in Wales and the United Kingdom. I would not be so . . . . Q199 Albert Owen: Do you not accept that with so few sanctions used that this facility approach is Q202 Hywel Williams: Presumptuous? working? Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes, presumptuous to tell you what Mr Joan i Marı´: That is it. The approach that is you have to do! really working is this one. Fortunately, we have in Chairman: That is a very fair and diplomatic answer. our society an agreed consensus and also in our parliament. I have to say that the competence in language policy is in the Catalan Parliament, and we Q203 Albert Owen: I think I might encroach on have a great consensus among the Government and another question here, but I am saying that the the main party of opposition now. As Secretary of clarity has to be there for companies to understand Language Policy, I feel that I have the support of the and to enter into this voluntary consensus that you three parties in the government but also the main are talking about. Would you say there has to be party of opposition, and only less than 10% of the greater clarity, or would you just have a broad list? parliament does not agree with our language policy. Mr Joan i Marı´: I think clarification is always good I think in society it is the same. in laws. In our experience, we have to learn very Mr Bosch i Garcia: From my point of view of course, much about it because sometimes you improve a law it is from a more global point of view, but from the and then you see that many things can be better; and telecommunications information society point of one has to change things, and it is logical. I think it view it is very important to have a legal framework; is good to have clarity. but from the constructive point of view and not from the destructive or pressure point of view. For us it is key to have a legal framework to work with. Once we Q204 Mr David Jones: I want to ask you another have this framework, let us talk with big companies question about the proposed Order, but before I do, what is the right approach for compliance with the can you help us by clarifying this? There are over 13 law. The approach of course cannot be the same for million people in Catalonia in the Catalan region, of a big company or a small company. With big whom over 9 million speak Catalan.1 companies the best message they understand is not punishment but the fact that it is not because of the 1 Note by witness:There are over 13 million people in the territories where Catalan is spoken (that includes Andorra, law but because of the business that they can make Northern Catalonia (in France), Catalonia, Balearic happen, so it is a win/win combination; you get more Islands, Valencian Country, ponent stripe (in Aragon) and money from the Catalan market is the first point, the city of Alguer (in Sardinia) Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
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20 April 2009 Mr Bernat Joan i Marı´ and Mr Jordi Bosch i Garcia
Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes. language policies cause any complications or diYculties in relation to people who provide cross- Q205 Mr David Jones: Do they speak it fluently; is border services? that fluent speakers? Mr Joan i Marı´: Just the contrary. We have had the Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes. opportunity through the fact that we have the same language and our language policy to strengthen our cross-border relations with southern France, and of Q206 Mr David Jones: So about 70% of the Catalan course with Andorra, which is historical, and also population are fluent speakers of Catalan. with Sardinia in Italy. It makes very well the euro- Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes, that is it.2 Mediterranean relation that we have within Catalonia, and Languedoc Roussillon in France and Q207 Mr David Jones: Just over 11 million the Balearic Islands. understand it, which is by my reckoning over 75% of Mr Bosch i Garcia: There is one more point. In the population understand it. It is a Romance certain situations it is the opposite. We are language. supporting our IT sector in Catalonia to develop, Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes. and because of the Catalan sector in Catalonia they are developing problems—they have a lot in Catalan Q208 Mr David Jones: Quite closely related to but in Spanish they are moving out from Castilian, Occitan, Italian, French. Catalonia—this is France or this is Italy or whatever. Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes. They have already the bilingual/multilingual concept incorporated into the product, the Q209 Mr David Jones: So it is part of the same family localisation of their products is fast, easy and cheap, of languages. One of the proposals made by the so that makes them more competitive for Welsh Assembly is that any laws that might be made international transactions or going for external under the new proposed Order should extend to markets. So we are requesting companies from companies or individuals who receive over £200,000 outside Catalonia to be in Catalonia, so it means of public money in any one year; so they would be incorporating Catalan to make business, potentially subject to the Welsh Language Scheme. localisation as a business opportunity, as added Do you have any similar provisions in Catalonia, value. Our Catalan companies are doing that and that people who receive certain sums of public they are exporting their products using the local money have to comply with language legislation? languages. I think they would say from this Mr Joan i Marı´: No. In fact if you want there is perspective it is not only good but it is more something comparable, we have had a very, very supportive to the companies in cross-border strong migration from 2000 until now, more than 1 relationships. million people, new citizens in Catalonia—from 2000 until 2008. It means that we have to make an Q213 Mr David Jones: You mentioned foreign eVort to integrate all these newcomers in our society. borders but what about internal borders? Have any It means also of course teaching language, having tensions been caused with Spain as a consequence of social and linguistic incorporation of them; and we your language policy? have new competency with a new Statute of Mr Joan i Marı´: I think it is favourable also because Autonomy on Migration. One of the conditions to have the act deep-rooted in our society is some we have a part of our language territory that is in knowledge of Catalan. It is not of course—we do not Aragon and this is a neighbourhood region with demand them to speak like Ausia`s March3 but just three languages, one of them ours. We have the same to have the means of basic communication. It is language with Valencia and the Balearic Islands, something that could be comparable. which makes it very easy to improve business among us, and we use also normally Spanish, and that is not a problem with the rest of the Spanish. It is an Q210 Mr David Jones: But that is not associated opportunity more than a problem. with receipt of public money? Mr Bosch i Garcia: The world is going to a global Mr Joan i Marı´: No. basis and global life is multilingual, so I think that that is normal in the world. What is not normal is Q211 Mr David Jones: That is diVerent money; that monolingual status, and this is the one that can cause is associated with the right to enter or settle in problems within life, but multilingual it is not. Catalonia? Mr Joan i Marı´: No, there is not a rule according with receiving public money. Q214 Mr David Jones: I was interested to see that you translated IT expressions from English to Catalan. I do not know whether an English speaker Q212 Mr David Jones: You are very much central to would be so worried about absorbing a foreign word mainland Europe; you have extensive borders not into his language. For example, I learnt from the only internally with the rest of Spain but also with papers that you sent us that “groggy” is a Catalan France, Andorra and so on. Do you find that your word. I just wondered why you take the trouble to 2 Note by witness: 70% of the population in the Catalan translate IT expressions into Catalan. I do not think speaking territories are fluent speakers of Catalan it would have been a problem if it had been the other 3 Note by witness: Valencian poet of the XVth century way round. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Ev 34 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
20 April 2009 Mr Bernat Joan i Marı´ and Mr Jordi Bosch i Garcia
Mr Bosch i Garcia: For instance, when you are or do not come to Catalonia. If you want an example looking against the digital divide and you are trying outside the enterprise world, I could show another to get all people to use computers, and you have a PC example. There is somewhere in some parts of in front of them something which is external to Europe—perhaps not here—the myth that students them—if this is talking to them in their own that go on an Erasmus programme are afraid of language they can understand “copy” or “paste” coming to Catalonia because of the language. easily if this is translated into Catalan. Catalonian universities are the second all around Europe receiving Erasmus programme after English. Q215 Mr David Jones: Those are not technical If we talk about cities, the first one is Florence and expressions. the second one is Barcelona. It means that language Mr Bosch i Garcia: No, they are not technical is not a barrier to come to our country. expressions, but it is copy for all person in Catalonia Mr Bosch i Garcia: Perception is very important, but who only speak Catalan or Spanish, that is as do not call it extra cost; let us call it extra investment. technical as any physical or nuclear physical term It is not the same. that you can invent. Q218 Hywel Williams: I would say, Chairman, that Q216 Mr David Jones: I understand that, but I Barcelona has other attractions apart from the thought that you meant more technical IT language, as well. Can I ask you about the principle expressions. “Copy and paste” is— of language legislation in Catalonia? In Wales, the Mr Bosch i Garcia: No, for this we do not need super principle is that Welsh and English are treated on the experts—but we have super experts for new basis of equality, and that has a certain condition to idiomatic expressions that today do not exist. it, which I will not go into. Would you see that as an Mr Joan i Marı´: It should be a very, very interesting achievable aim for Wales, and what is your subject for our institute, the Termcat, where we experience of similar provisions in Catalonia? regularise the terminology, technical terminology in Mr Joan i Marı´: In Catalonia the basis is that we our language. The issue that you have proposed is have Catalan and Spanish like oYcial languages. We the subject of long, long debates among the workers do not speak usually of co-oYciality, but oYciality in this institute in order to regularise, because of each one, because documents in only one language is alive. It means that it changes, that we language are perfectly legal. The reasons of have incorporations from other languages, but also oYciality are diVerent and they are stated by our we have to regularise it according with the future of autonomous statute. Catalan is oYcial because it is our language, as you have done in English, and I the language of Catalonia and Spanish is oYcial suppose as you have done in Welsh, because many because it is the oYcial language of Spain. These are words come from other languages, and then you the main bases for the oYciality of both languages in regularise words like “garage” and in Welsh I do not Catalonia. know which word, but it is an adaptability that this institute, the Termcat, is working on. Q219 Hywel Williams: We might have a problem in Mr David Jones: What is the Catalan word for a the UK as we have no written constitution and no hamburger? statement that English is the oYcial language, so Mr Joan i Marı´: Hamburger. how can Welsh be an oYcial language if English is Chairman: I think we need to progress! not? That is a real problem that we, as a Committee, are exploring. Is the creation of a definition of oYcial Q217 Hywel Williams: Can I add a supplementary status therefore necessary for any legislation, do you question, Chair? You have emphasised the think? Is it essential? commercial opportunity that Catalan provides. Mr Joan i Marı´: First of all, if you allow me, I think There are some companies in Wales that are worried that sometimes it should be better not having a that there might be extra costs in using Welsh. In constitution! For the minority languages it is Catalonia are there companies that have become less important, oYcially, because the situation is not the viable in Catalonia because of the extra cost of same. For the very, very extended languages if you using Catalan? let a language—what happens if the language is Mr Joan i Marı´: I think this extra cost could be felt everybody, very spoken, then the future is assured; as a problem at the beginning because it is logical but if it is not a very spoken language, co-existing that when something is changing there is some fright with another, much more spoken—and that is the about what is going to happen. Perhaps at the case of the Catalan relation to Spanish, but also a beginning it was this suspicion on companies in case of Welsh in relation to English—then the Catalonia, but in fact the feeling has changed so possibilities of surviving as a leading language are much and I am absolutely sure that nowadays no- few. We have the idea that in Catalonia to assure one avoids Catalonia because of the language, equality we have to correct inequalities that have because big companies provide normally services in been done by history. We have suVered—that is not Catalan—and here we are talking about Microsoft the case in the UK, fortunately for you— and about these companies that provide all the dictatorships; we have suVered deprivation and so services in Catalan—Easyjet is another good on and so forth. We have thought at the beginning example of a company that has incorporated the on language policy as a way to correct inequality. I Catalan language without any problem. It means think that this principle can be set for all minority that there are no enterprises that go out of Catalonia languages. If we do not provide legal instruments for Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
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20 April 2009 Mr Bernat Joan i Marı´ and Mr Jordi Bosch i Garcia equality, it is sure that in the future only a few Q222 Mr David Jones: So the consumer would tend languages should survive. In the same way that we not to get bilingual documents. The consumer would work for maintaining biodiversity, we work also for get documents in the language of his choice? maintaining cultural diversity; and it means Mr Joan i Marı´: That is the most common way, but language diversity. there are also bilingual documents and bilingual services many, many times. Q220 Hywel Williams: Does Catalan have oYcial status in the Balearics and Valencia and Aragon, and Q223 Mr David Jones: Would, for example, a V also in France; and what is the e ect of that? telephone bill or an electricity bill be bilingual or Mr Joan i Marı´: That is very complicated. In would it be in the language of the choice of the Y Andorra, it is the only o cial language, for this consumer? reason; Catalan has been used in the General Mr Joan i Marı´: It could be both, according to the Assembly in the United Nations for instance. In company; you can have bilingual or you can have in Y Andorra it is the only o cial language; it is an the language that you have asked for. independent state. That is smaller than Ibiza Island, just to compare. It is oYcial with Castilian, with the Spanish, like in Catalonia, in the Balearic Islands Q224 Mr David Jones: But it would be quite possible and in Valencia, and it is not oYcial until now in for the consumer to elect to have it entirely in Aragon but they are working on a language act for Catalan or entirely in Castilian? the three languages of Aragon. It is not oYcial in Mr Joan i Marı´: Yes. France because of the French constitution, but it is co-oYcial in Perpignan, for instance, in the capital Q225 Hywel Williams: Finally there is the question city of Pyre´ne´es Orientales, that is north of about the right to use Catalan or the right to use Catalonia for us. It is not oYcial in Alguer in Welsh, because in Wales at present we are talking Sardinia, where the only oYcial language is Italian about the freedom to use Welsh rather than the right, in spite of the fact that Sardinia is an autonomous and there is a fine distinction. Do you have any community within Italy. But it is taught in the feelings on that, whether there should be rights or schools in Sardinia. If we speak of all our territory, freedom? we have seven diVerent legislations applicable to Mr Joan i Marı´: As I have told before, I am not going Catalan languages. to be so presumptuous to give you research for Wales because you have those who have to do it. I think in Q221 Mr David Jones: I am interested in the way our case we have a long way of 30 years of that the language operates in the business context. I competence for the Catalan Parliament in language have read the very full memo you sent us. You refer policy. We have been working quite a long way. Now to the Consumer Statute Act as amended by the we put it in the framework of the rights and perhaps Language Policy Act, which provides that people 20 years ago we stressed more the position of who deal with the public must be able to provide freedom because we have not had freedom in services in Catalan to the members of the public, if Catalan, and that is according with the way that we they so wish; and also standard form contracts that have been doing it. This is a fact that changes, individuals have—and you list the various sectors— because history changes and wishes of people with supply companies must be supplied in Catalan change. if the consumer asks for it. Does that mean that it is Chairman: (The Chairman spoke in Welsh) Can I only supplied in Catalan if the consumer asks for it, thank you, on behalf of the Committee for your very or is it supplied in the natural course? comprehensive evidence before this Committee Mr Joan i Marı´: It is according with the wishes of the today and the written evidence you provided consumer. If the consumer wants it in Catalan, it is previously. I must say that you have impressed us all in Catalan. If the consumer wants it in Castilian or with your confidence and your faith—the words in Spanish, it is in Spanish. Welsh are “hyder” and “Vydd”. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Ev 36 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
Witnesses: Mr Tony Dicicco, Head of Government Relations, RWE Npower, Ms Sara Vaughan, Director of Regulation and Energy Policy, E.ON, and Mr Matt Rogerson, Senior Media AVairs Manager, Virgin Media, gave evidence.
Q226 Chairman: Good afternoon, welcome to the Ms Vaughan: I have. Welsh AVairs Committee. For the record, can you introduce yourselves? Q231 Mr David Jones: Have you read the Ms Vaughan: Sara Vaughan, Director of Regulation explanatory memorandum that accompanies it? and Energy Policy in E.ON. Ms Vaughan: Yes. Mr Dicicco: I am Tony Dicicco, Head of Government Relations in RWE npower. Mr Rogerson: I am Matt Rogerson, Senior Public Q232 Mr David Jones: You will know, therefore, that AVairs Manager at Virgin Media. the transfer of competence would be followed by more legislation on the Welsh language; that is the Q227 Chairman: Thank you for coming today and intention of the Welsh Assembly Government. thank you for the written evidence that you have Ms Vaughan: I understand that, but it is fair to say provided. Can I begin by asking a single question to that at the moment the scope of that legislation, each of you: do you support the transfer of legal exactly what it says and the obligations that it would responsibility for the Welsh Language to the put on those who fall within field 20.1 is not clear. National Assembly? Mr Dicicco: I think it is a matter for the two Q233 Mr David Jones: Let me just come back to the assemblies to decide how it should be taken forward. question: why do you think it is a good idea to We do not have any views. transfer competence to the Welsh Assembly? Ms Vaughan: I can certainly understand why the Ms Vaughan: Because I think it is natural and logical Welsh Assembly would wish to take powers in this that the Welsh Assembly would wish itself to control area, and we think that it is logical that they would the use of the Welsh language within Wales. wish to have those powers and that they should have those powers. Q234 Mr David Jones: You expressed concern about Mr Rogerson: I would agree; it is logical that the more legislation; what would you like to see as an Welsh Assembly should have those powers. alternative to more legislation? Chairman: The acoustics are not very good in the Ms Vaughan: I believe that the way that the system room and people behind are straining to hear, so do currently operates with the voluntary provision of not be afraid to raise your voices and shout Welsh language services works for companies like occasionally if we look as though we are not hearing ours that operate in the Welsh market. I believe there you properly. is some scope for some firmer legislation or provision. Clearly, as I say, it is not clear yet what the Q228 Mr David Jones: I was surprised, Mr scope will be, but one could see, for example, the Rogerson, to hear you say that because I have read provision of a charter mark scheme whereby the memorandum that your company has companies are accredited to the level of Welsh submitted, and it appears to be very sceptical and language provision that they provide. concerned about the transfer of powers to the Assembly. Q235 Mr David Jones: You expressed concern about Mr Rogerson: Our scepticism about the proposed “the possibility that legislation could lead to measure comes from the fact that we see very little disproportionate costs which put at risk our ability demand within our customer base for an extension to oVer competitive services to Welsh customers.” of billing and other customer services in the Welsh Ms Vaughan: Yes. language. I spoke to a number of people in the company who have been there longer than I have and they do not recall ever having a request for a bill Q236 Mr David Jones: Is that a concern that the to be sent in Welsh, or a request at our customer other two witnesses have? service centre to be spoken to in Welsh. Mr Dicicco: Yes, I would share that concern. At the moment RWE npower oVers a very good service to Q229 Mr David Jones: Can I widen the question to our customers who want to speak to us in a language all three witnesses, please: do you believe there is a other than English. We oVer a live translation need for more legislation on the Welsh language, in service, where hopefully our customers can speak to the commercial context? us in a second language. Our call centres are based in Ms Vaughan: I think it is quite important actually to England. So far we think the arrangements we have distinguish between the principle of the transfer of made work very well. To date I know of one request powers to the Welsh Assembly and the question of where we have had a customer in Wales requesting to the need for legislation in itself. We would tend to speak in Welsh. That is the only request we have had support Virgin Media’s position on this, that we do so far. not see the need for legislation, and we would prefer to continue the voluntary approach to providing the Q237 Mr David Jones: You make the point in your Welsh language that we see currently. memorandum that you were concerned “that some businesses with a smaller customer base in Wales Q230 Mr David Jones: Have you read the Draft could be deterred from competing for customers in Order? Wales due to the additional cost burden”. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
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20 April 2009 Mr Tony Dicicco, Ms Sara Vaughan and Mr Matt Rogerson
Mr Dicicco: That is true. Mr Dicicco: Given our customer base, most of our customers would possibly prefer to speak English to Q238 Mr David Jones: Is that concern based upon a us than Welsh, given the geographical split of our gut feeling or any other evidence that you have? customers. Mr Dicicco: Basically, if you change bills, if you make bills either bilingual or you produce bills in a Q245 Hywel Williams: I am just concerned that you second language, that will increase our costs. At the might be setting up a service which nobody in their moment where we make available a bill in, say, large right minds would want to use. print for our customers, for a bill it is something Mr Dicicco: That is not the sort of intention of between £5 and £10 per bill and that is four times a setting the service up. We use the service for a year, so obviously costs start to mount up. Those are number of languages. Obviously, Polish is a fairly the concerns we have in providing additional important language for us at the moment, and there services to the services we produce now. It might are other ethnic minority languages; so we try to aVect our profitability. make sure that our customers can deal with us on a fair and equitable basis. I would hope there would be Q239 Mr David Jones: Well, your profitability— no real diVerence between speaking in English and Mr Dicicco: Not profitability, competitiveness. speaking in Welsh to our call centres.
Q240 Mr David Jones: Indeed, but presumably you Q246 Hywel Williams: You said that bills would cost are speaking on behalf of your company; but you £5 more apiece to produce in large print. Have you said in your memo that you were concerned that made an assessment of the cost of providing other companies might be deterred from entering the bilingual bills over an extended period of time and Welsh market. the initial set-up costs; and, if you have, can you Mr Dicicco: Yes, because we are a very small supplier make those figures available? in Wales. We are not the largest suppliers in Wales, Mr Dicicco: Those are estimates. I have not gone and there are other suppliers of both energy services into any detailed cost calculations, but that is an and other services which might face the same sort of estimate we looked at in changing the nature of the problems that we may have in incurring increased bill. costs, which might aVect our competitiveness when we try to compete with some of the more established players. Q247 Hywel Williams: Ms Vaughan, have you made an assessment of the costs, initial and long-term, say Q241 Mr David Jones: What discussions have each of providing billing in two languages? of you had with the Welsh Assembly Government as Ms Vaughan: We have not done that. As I mentioned to the potential impact of the proposed legislation earlier, it is unclear at present what the scope of the on your businesses? Order may be. It may be in relation to oral services Mr Dicicco: I actually gave evidence at a session on or in relation to billing or in relation to codes of practice; and it may go further than that—so I am 31 March at the Welsh Assembly at the committee V looking at this Competence Order. I outlined the afraid at this stage I cannot o er you any figures. issues that we might face as a company in Wales if there were onerous legislation. Q248 Hywel Williams: On the question of principle, you said earlier on that you were in favour of using Q242 Mr David Jones: I appreciate you have given the voluntary principle. However, Mr Rogerson said evidence to a Welsh Assembly committee, but have he was unaware of anyone requesting services in you had any discussions with the Assembly Welsh. It seems to be peculiar that you are saying on Government? the one hand that nobody seems to want it and that Ms Vaughan: Our trade association, the Energy there are voluntary arrangements, and yet you want Retail Association, has met with the Heritage to persist with those voluntary arrangements, which Minister on behalf of the industry to discuss the do not seem to elicit the latent demand that is there. position. Ms Vaughan: But would the answer to that be that Mr Rogerson: I believe the trade association that we withdraw the voluntary service? I do not think represents the telecoms companies has been that would be the right answer. I completely take discussing this. your point that a simultaneous translation service of the sort we oVer does not pick up somebody who Q243 Mr David Jones: But your company has not. would just prefer to speak in Welsh but can also Mr Rogerson: Not individually. speak in English. It does not truly reflect demand for those services; it shows who is the most interested in Q244 Hywel Williams: Mr Dicicco, I speak Welsh using them, and that probably would explain why but I also speak English adequately, and if I was our figures are similar to the ones that Tony has seen, telephoning your company I do not think I would that over the last quarter we have not had the ask for a translation service; I could speak in demand. English. Did you consider that when you were setting up your live translation service? Most people Q249 Hywel Williams: My question was more a who speak Welsh also speak English and as a matter matter of principle; that the voluntary system does of courtesy they tend to speak English. not seem to elicit demand and yet you want a Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Ev 38 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
20 April 2009 Mr Tony Dicicco, Ms Sara Vaughan and Mr Matt Rogerson voluntary system, which, on your evidence, is Q254 Albert Owen: Even though I had a Welsh manifestly failing to elicit the demand that might address? be there. Mr Dicicco: No, not at this stage. Mr Dicicco: The voluntary system is there for people Ms Vaughan: I do not believe that those services are who speak a number of languages, and I am sure available, no. there are people in Wales who do not just want to converse in Welsh and English; there are other Q255 Hywel Williams: Can I ask a question to Virgin languages that they feel more comfortable speaking. Media? You, reasonably, have concerns about the We would like to make sure that they are treated as costs that might be entailed, but you also say that equitably as everyone else. you already employ some Welsh speakers in your call centre. Would those costs be as great if you just deployed the legitimate occupation and skills that Q250 Hywel Williams: Welsh and English have a V V your workers have in a slightly di erent way? di erent legal status to Polish or Italian or whatever, Mr Rogerson: Our concern around cost is the extent and of course the numbers speaking Welsh are of the scheme; would it go to billing or would we infinitely more than those other languages. have to change our systems and processes for billing Mr Dicicco: Yes. as well as call centres; would our installation teams have to learn a second language so that when they go Q251 Albert Owen: To follow on that line of inquiry, to customers’ homes they have to oVer the service in do your companies have a Welsh language scheme? Welsh?4 That is where the additional costs come in. You have all said in your submissions and verbally We do have people within the company that speak today that take-up is very low. What are you doing Welsh at no extra cost, so that is not where our to market the Welsh language service? As Hywel concern is in terms of cost. said, he speaks two languages and so do most of my constituents, and if you go on a line that is in English Q256 Hywel Williams: Essentially it is a matter of the chances are that they automatically speak cost, because I take it that all three companies English, but if they were told that this service is also operate in other countries—in fact I think you all available through the medium of Welsh, that would operate in various parts of England, Europe and give a choice. Would you mind answering that elsewhere. individually? First, do you have a Welsh language Mr Rogerson: We only operate in Great Britain. scheme? Mr Dicicco: We do produce documentation in Welsh Q257 Hywel Williams: Do you operate in Ireland? as well as English, not just on my side of the business Mr Rogerson: Northern Ireland, yes. but on the generation side as well. We are a big Mr Dicicco: RWE npower only operates in Great investor in Wales and we try to build— Britain. Ms Vaughan: E.ON UK operates in Great Britain; clearly, the E.ON Group operates across Europe. Q252 Albert Owen: Potentially bigger. Mr Dicicco: Yes, potentially bigger, but it is V Q258 Hywel Williams: One of the points that has important to us. We do o er documentation in been made to us by the Welsh Language Board is Welsh. that there is a lack of consistency in provision, which Ms Vaughan: We do not have a specific Welsh V does not lead, as our Catalan friend said a moment language scheme, no. The scheme that we o er, ago, to making the demand visible. The lack of which is a language line translation service, deals consistency means for the initial approach that the with Welsh and also deals with other languages that customer might have to use English, which they are our customers may wish to speak. quite able to use, although they might use Welsh in Mr Rogerson: We do not have a specific Welsh other circumstances. Do you think that if we had language scheme. The basis on which we would legislation establishing a minimum standard of provide a Welsh speaker if it was requested at a call provision that that might lead to an increase in centre is that we would get the number of Welsh demand, if everybody knew that at a certain basic speakers that we have got to ring that customer level you could have a certain amount of service— back. It is not marketed in any general sense. perhaps the man who comes to fix whatever it is in Ms Vaughan: I am sorry, you did ask the question your home. Would that elicit a higher demand, do about marketing and I realise I did not answer that you think? question. The availability of translation services, Ms Vaughan: Answering the question as it has been again not specifically Welsh translation services put, absolutely straight; if there were a minimum appears in our codes of practice. level of provision, then I suspect it would elicit a higher level of demand, but I was quite struck by Q253 Albert Owen: The market is limited. If I were what colleagues from Catalonia said about the to receive a bill from either of your companies, E.ON availability of the provision of language as a V or RWE, it would not say at the bottom “this is also di erentiating factor. I am sorry, I was not able to available in Welsh”. 4 Note by witness: would we have to duplicate back oYce Mr Dicicco: I think it does say it can be available in functions such as paying for legal teams to ensure that our a second language, or services can be in a second T&C’s are accurately translated into Welsh; provide all of language, but we would not specifically— our technical helplines and technical help webpages in Welsh Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 39
20 April 2009 Mr Tony Dicicco, Ms Sara Vaughan and Mr Matt Rogerson catch the gentleman’s name, but he was painting a about the principle of reasonable and practicable picture of a company that came in and took Catalan provision of services. Where you have 5,000 as its own, moved forward and used that to customers out of our total distribution connected distinguish itself from its competitors and promote customers of 2.4 million, it is a very small the language; and he saw that as a great benefit to percentage. It is 0.1% of our total distribution that company and the space that it would occupy. customers, and 0.4% of the total number of Clearly, that is something that a company could do customers in Wales. It is a question of under current arrangements as well. In a voluntary proportionality, which companies you include under scheme a company is able to come in and to make the the head of claim. Welsh language available and promote that as its Mr Dicicco: I think I would agree on the competitive selling point, if you like. side. On the supply side, I think competition is always probably the best means of ensuring that Q259 Hywel Williams: As I said, I think you are customers get the best service. RWE npower does having a problem in comparing Wales with not have any electricity distribution assets in Great Catalonia, in that there are more of them and the Britain and so we do not face that issue that Sara’s commercial advantages are more apparent. Do you company faces. have any understanding what you might be expected Mr Rogerson: The question I have around this is why to provide under any subsequent legislation? I take broadcasting, radio and television are excluded from it you have not, because you said there is a range of the scope of the Order, given that possibilities that are more of a disincentive than telecommunications and all these other services are others. converging. It seems slightly odd. Ms Vaughan: Yes. Mr Dicicco: There will be a scale of increased costs Q262 Mark Williams: As it is written at the moment, that we would face, depending what the provisions would you welcome omission of are. telecommunications? Mr Rogerson: The services we provide are still Q260 Mark Williams: Turning now specifically to discretionary. Broadband is no longer a luxury but it the scope of the Order as it is written—and reference is not a utility in the same sense that electricity and has been made to matter 20.1 and your conclusion water are; so in that sense I would welcome the under (h) in that section—this may be an obvious omission.5 question, but do you think the services you provide are public services, and on that basis what are your Q263 Mark Williams: When you said the Energy views on the inclusion of your sector specifically? Retail Association had discussions on 24 February You have voiced your support for the general with the Minister for Heritage, I was rather cheered principle that the Assembly should have control in reading his comments when he said the Energy these areas, but specifically your inclusion in the Retail Association did not have great concerns. He Order of your sector? said that by and large the companies that the Energy Ms Vaughan: I think, as E.ON, we can answer this Retail Association represents are already fulfilling question on a number of levels. I do not want to their obligations and provide a good bilingual move on to what might be a further question about service. What do you think of that discussion, production of electricity because the Order is clear because there is a mismatch between what we have that it is people providing the public with the been told of the discussion and what the minister has following kinds of services, as you say. In electricity said, and your feelings this afternoon? production the direct customer is not the general Ms Vaughan: I have not seen the report of that. I do public; it will be the supply company or the not know if it is something that I should have seen, purchaser from the production company. So I think but I think you have to diVerentiate between the there is a question about the appropriateness of the companies which are part of the Energy Retail inclusion. Association and are larger players in Wales, so that would be Manweb and South Wales—and also Q261 Mark Williams: You are right; there is a British Gas, which clearly had a lot of ex-incumbent question coming later. customers in Wales—and those of us that are much Ms Vaughan: I am sorry about that. In relation to smaller in Wales. We have 90,000 customers in supply companies, supply is a competitive market, Wales—so that might be the way. and with private companies competing in that market. We believe that the provisions of the competitive market are the better way of Q264 Mark Williams: The Minister in the Assembly encouraging diVerentiation in the production of committee said—another quote—that the services; indeed, in the way I elaborated earlier, it Association does not see any need to be alarmed. could become an element on which people could That was quite a positive statement from the compete. The third element is the distribution of Minister. I appreciate what you say. electricity through the wires. We have 5,000 connected customers in Wales, and it just slips over 5 Note by witness: However, were the Assembly to decide that telecommunications should remain within the scope of the the border from the West Midlands area into Wales. order, we believe they should look carefully at the need to There, it comes back to the principle that is include broadcasting, radio and television within the enunciated in the memorandum in paragraph 16 definition of telecommunications. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Ev 40 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
20 April 2009 Mr Tony Dicicco, Ms Sara Vaughan and Mr Matt Rogerson
Mr Dicicco: One would hope the ERA would not be Mr Rogerson: I am not sure whether our trade alarmed by what potentially would be any legal association has spoken directly to that gentleman, provision. The Energy Retail Association is a broad but we are constantly in discussions with BERR and church and there are a number of companies that specifically around Digital Britain, so this issue has have diVerent interests in Wales to, say, Sara’s and probably come up in those discussions. my own company. Q271 Mr David Jones: Whilst I fully understand that Q265 Mark Williams: The amendments you would the Welsh Heritage Minister has the responsibility like to see to the list of bodies covered—you have for steering this legislation through, you have got specifically mentioned the diVerences against your diVerent concerns, have you not? You have work at 20.1—quite clearly and simply under section expressed them very eloquently this afternoon. Your 1 for gas, water and electricity services, but what concern is not simply about the Welsh language, but amendment would you like to see to that in the you have economic and business concerns. It seems LCO? to me odd that neither of your trade associations Ms Vaughan: I still cannot see the logic for including seems to have had any discussions with that V production, so I think I would take out production particular minister either in Cardi or in London. It from that list. In relation to supply and distribution, is just a thought. we would rather not see them in there, as they are Ms Vaughan: Thank you; we will take that thought private companies and we prefer to continue on a away. voluntary basis. But it is clear that they do provide services, and ultimately it will be for yourselves to Q272 Mr David Jones: You touched on it, Ms decide which companies are within that scope. There Vaughan, but other witnesses have also commented are clearly other bodies that provide services to the on what I think you referred to as an anomaly that public such as the people who come and fill oil tanks the proposed Order relates solely to electricity and and the suppliers of LPG, who provide heat in a very gas supply. You have actually commented on this. similar way to the way a gas supplier does, for Given that you identified that as an anomaly,are you example. It did strike me as a bit of an anomaly that saying that these other energy suppliers or LPG and the electricity and gas companies were included and biomass et cetera, should be brought into the ambit not those other providers of services. of the proposed Order, or that you should be taken out of it? Ms Vaughan: That is clearly not a matter for me but Q266 Mark Williams: Did you have those a matter for yourselves. discussions with the Energy Retail Association when you met with the Minister? Was there a spirited discussion within the broad church? Q273 Mr David Jones: If you think there is an Ms Vaughan: Apologies—I was not at that meeting. anomaly, how do you think that anomaly ideally Mr Dicicco: Nor was I. should be addressed? Mark Williams: I would be interested to know. Ms Vaughan: We believe that the coverage should continue to be voluntary, as it is at present. The logical result of that would be that we would be Q267 Mr David Jones: Getting back to these taken out of the Order. I pointed out the anomaly discussions you had, your trade associations have because it is such and it seems strange, particularly been in discussions with the Welsh Heritage when we know that many households in Wales are Minister. Have you had any discussions with the not connected to the gas main. It was really trying to Welsh Economic Development Minister? explore more the underlying reason for the Ms Vaughan: Not to my knowledge. I would have to exclusion. take the point away to check. Q274 Mr David Jones: So you would like to see Q268 Mr David Jones: I would have thought he was electricity taken out of the ambit of the Order. Would a fairly obvious port of call. What about the you, too, Mr Dicicco? Department for Business, Enterprise and Mr Dicicco: I think I would. As I said before, the Regulatory Reform here in Whitehall—Victoria competitive market will generally give the best Street, to be more precise; have you spoken to them position for customer service because we need to try about your concerns? and keep customers and win new customers, and if Ms Vaughan: Again, not to my knowledge; we by doing that we can oVer more services in Welsh or would have to check that. other languages, then we will do that. I do not think we want anything that is mandated because that potentially will increase our costs and make us Q269 Mr David Jones: Do you think it might be a uncompetitive in a market where we do not have a good idea to do so? very large presence. Ms Vaughan: Absolutely. Q275 Mr David Jones: Neither of you, I suppose, has Q270 Mr David Jones: What about you, Mr an axe to grind for the gas suppliers, but logic would Rogerson, have you spoken to the Welsh Economic dictate that you would want gas suppliers taken out Development Minister and your association? of the ambit of the Order too? Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 41
20 April 2009 Mr Tony Dicicco, Ms Sara Vaughan and Mr Matt Rogerson
Ms Vaughan: We are gas suppliers as well. Mr Rogerson: We would prefer to see providing Welsh in our call centres and billing as diVerentiated Q276 Mr David Jones: You are. So you do have an as a value-added service rather than as an across-the- axe to grind. board obligation. Ms Vaughan: Yes. Mr Dicicco: We also supply gas but we do not Q280 Alun Michael: Is it not true that most UK supply LPG. companies that seem to expand their businesses go to countries overseas where they have to provide services in two, three, perhaps four languages. As Q277 Mr David Jones: Can we go back to the other you head to eastern Europe and so on, British point you made about the inclusion of the electricity companies have been very competitive in moving producers in the proposed Order because they do not into those markets. Is it that diVerent? have customer-facing operations. Again, you Ms Vaughan: If we look at the Welsh market referred to that as an anomaly in your currently, coming back to this point that neither my memorandum. Do I take it on the basis that you company nor Tony’s company are incumbents— would like to have the gas and electricity suppliers although he might have had some incumbent taken out of the ambit of the Order so that you customers, we did not. We have 90,000 customers in would wish the electricity producers to be taken out Wales and we have won all of those 90,000 of the ambit of the Order? customers; we started from a basis of zero. We have Ms Vaughan: Yes, that would be correct. I think the gone in with our proposition, which involves a V justification is slightly di erent in that they do not provision of Welsh language services through the supply services direct to the public, and I would translation system that I described to you, and that certainly suggest that in the case of electricity and has obviously been seen as an attractive proposition gas suppliers. by those customers who have signed up to us. Nobody compelled them to sign up to us; they had a Q278 Mr David Jones: The logical progression from free choice to do so; and on the basis of price or that would be, I guess, that any part of the economy whatever they found attractive, that is what they that does not have a customer-facing, consumer- have done. facing operation, be excluded from the ambit of the Order. Would you say it is fair to extend the Q281 Alun Michael: I do not think that quite argument to that extent? answered the question of whether providing a service Ms Vaughan: No, I do not think that would be my in Wales is really as complicated as is suggested, conclusion. I am looking at matter 20.1 as drafted, compare to the complications if you intervene in an and clearly matters (a) to (g) are defined within their overseas market. own scope; (h) has specifically the persons providing Mr Dicicco: I suppose it depends which market it is. the following kinds of services. Forgive me, I am Perhaps going to Catalonia might not be quite as merely looking at it on the basis of the words I have expensive. I said before that we oVer a good service in front of me. to our customers in Wales, and although we did have a few incumbents through our mains electricity Q279 Alun Michael: We have heard a lot of diVerent heritage across the border, most of those customers views about whether the proposed Order would we won from the incumbent suppliers, Swalec and eVectively provide a level playing-field for Manweb. businesses, and obviously that is something that one hopes the legislation will seek to achieve. What are Q282 Alun Michael: Can I put one question your views about that? specifically to Virgin Media? In the submission you Mr Dicicco: We are slightly at a disadvantage raised concerns about the eVect of legislation on the because we are very small suppliers in Wales. We do cost of telecommunications services and potential not have historical incumbent customers. Some impact on the Government’s aims for digital other suppliers in Wales, Scottish Power and inclusion. Manweb and British Gas, and also south Wales Mr Rogerson: Yes. Electricity Board, do have historical customers in Wales and probably have services in place geared up Q283 Alun Michael: The Assembly’s Minister for to cater for those, and at the moment we do not. Heritage has commented basically that the inclusion Ms Vaughan: Whilst you might have less sympathy of the term “communications sector” in the Order is for us despite our lack of incumbency, you might an attempt to future-proof the Order, given the rapid have more sympathy for a new entrant who is pace of change in this sector, in a sense looking looking to come in to the market and is looking at beyond telecommunications to the wider converged the whole of England and Wales. The question might media that we are increasingly having to deal with. be whether the requirement to oVer this additional What is your view of that comment? service had any impact on their decision to enter the Mr Rogerson: The first thing to say is that I do not market. It could have an impact both ways. They see the reason for excluding broadcasting, radio or might decide that they want to come in and be a television from the Order. If telecommunications is niche supplier, supplying Wales and using the Welsh going to be in the Order, then, as you say, converging language; but equally the additional costs might be services would suggest that they should be included a disincentive. within it. In terms of the point about digital Processed: 02-07-2009 19:53:37 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG3
Ev 42 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
20 April 2009 Mr Tony Dicicco, Ms Sara Vaughan and Mr Matt Rogerson inclusion or exclusion, while broadband is no longer to be and you do not get the loyalty to one particular a luxury, there is certainly a split in the market supplier. In fact websites such as uSwitch have been between people who want a low-cost broadband set up precisely to encourage people to switch as product and a premium broadband product—50 often as they can. What eVect would you see upon meg is what we oVer; and any additional costs that particular flexibility that consumers enjoy these associated with increased costs of operating in Wales days if an electricity or gas supplier were to be because of mandation to bill in Welsh could have the subject to a Welsh language legislative obligation? impact of either putting people oV signing up for Mr Dicicco: It may slant the market in favour of the broadband—still a third of the country does not take incumbent suppliers, the old Manweb and Swalec broadband—or those people that do have it, because companies, if it increased the costs of smaller broadband is discretionary they could decide to suppliers and new entrants into the market in Wales. downgrade or ditch their broadband connection It may aVect competitiveness. altogether. That is where our concern comes from. Q286 Mr David Jones: Do I infer from that that you Q284 Alun Michael: You told me specifically about are saying some small suppliers would be reluctant cost, but what would you regard as the impact of the to enter the market or accept customers in Wales? cost on your charges? Have you made any estimate? Mr Dicicco: Potentially. It depends on how onerous Mr Rogerson: No. We are not entirely sure what the the provisions were and how costly. We would have Order would dictate. Would it be just bills or when to see what they were. That is one of the problems customers speak to call centre operatives? Would it that we think we may face and for the suppliers, new be installers; would they have to learn Welsh as well? entrants, might face. I share your comment that the Until we know that we cannot know what processes electricity and gas markets are very competitive, and and systems we would have to change. Knowing rightly so—and that is one of the big successes of how much it costs to change processes and systems, privatisation. it would be a significant amount of money, I believe. Chairman: Thank you all for your attendance today, for the evidence you have given and also for the Q285 Mr David Jones: The supply market is written evidence. If you feel there are points which becoming increasingly competitive and people are a we have not covered, we would be very happy to lot more inclined to switch these days than they used receive a further memorandum from you. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [SO] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 43
Monday 27 April 2009
Members present Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair
Nia GriYth Mark Pritchard Mrs Siaˆn C James Hywel Williams Mr David Jones Mark Williams Alun Michael
Witnesses: Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones, Head of Welsh Language and Media Policy, and Ms Nerys Arch, Senior Lawyer, Legal Services Department, Welsh Assembly Government, gave evidence.
Q287 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Good were in favour of legislation or in favour of afternoon. May I extend a very warm welcome to all promoting the Welsh language, and I think around of you to the Welsh AVairs Committee. I would like 60% of those who had an opinion on the matter you to introduce yourselves to the Committee, supported that. Another opinion poll today again please. showed broad support to use the Welsh language in Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I am promoting business in Wales and even though that Alun Ffred Jones, Minister for Heritage at the Welsh does not come under the scope of the Order it does Assembly Government. suggest that there is broad support amongst people Ms Arch: (Through an Interpreter) I am Nerys Arch. in Wales. Today’s opinion poll, which was released I am with the Legal Department at the Welsh today, also showed that 11% of Welsh speakers were Assembly Government. actually included in that sample, which suggests that Mr Huw Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I am Huw there is quite a lot of support amongst non-Welsh Onllwyn Jones from the Language Unit at the Welsh speakers as well in Wales. Assembly Government. Q289 Mark Williams: Minister, why do you believe Q288 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank that the 1993 Welsh Language Act is inadequate, you very much. Can I please ask you to raise your and how do you see the proposed Order as being V voices. Please do not be shy and do not be scared of more e ective than current legislation? shouting at us. We are not scared of you. What Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Once evidence do you have to suggest that there is a again, the Welsh Language Board deals, of course, suYcient demand for this Order and have you with the implementation of the 1993 Act and they undertaken research into this? themselves have said they believe the Act, as it Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) We currently stands, is inadequate. It is inadequate are of the opinion that there is a demand and, yes, we because there is uncertainty in relation to its have undertaken consultations on a broad level with implementation. There is a lack of consistency a cross-section of society in Wales. There is within areas with certain bodies or companies agreement cross-party in the National Assembly for included and others not included within sectors, and the transfer of the powers to legislate for the Welsh of course evidence that you yourselves have heard language from Westminster to the National from experience in Europe where there is no firm Assembly—there is agreement on that and I think we redress under the current system when there is a should see the process, of course, as a part of the dispute. Of course, they are few in number, but they objective of the Government to create a bilingual do suggest that there is a need to strengthen that side Wales and that is the statement that was made in the of things. I would also say that with the current Act, document in 2003 which had cross-party support for the way in which the Welsh language is promoted it with the same intention of creating a bilingual predominantly is through Welsh language schemes Wales. The consultation exercise of both and even though they have done excellent work, I committees, both here and in the Assembly, has been think more flexibility is needed in the future in terms very encouraging with around 50 bodies stating that of how we promote the Welsh language and perhaps they are in favour of the transfer of powers to the we need those other methods. I think we need new Assembly and that compares, I think, with around powers in order to do that. 15 bodies which have not yet stated an opinion, with a small minority who are against the transfer of Q290 Mark Williams: This Committee has heard powers. Of course, there has been a petition of evidence from some sections of the private sector 10,000 names submitted and the Welsh Language who still advance the voluntary route specifically.We Board itself, which deals with the 1993 Act as it heard from the CBI. We had a diVerent viewpoint, I currently stands, has stated that it is of the opinion think, from the representatives of the Federation of that the Act needs to be reformed. Also, I would Small Businesses, who I know you have met with. refer to the opinion polls which have been held Why do you feel a legislative route is necessary during the last few months, one by the BBC asking rather than the voluntary route which some are still whether people were of the opinion or not that they arguing for? Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Ev 44 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch
Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Well, Q292 Mark Pritchard: The Welsh Language Board of course it is evident from this Order that the have told us that they have insuYcient powers of majority of the private sector are outside the scope enforcement under existing legislation. How do you of the Order, so the vast majority of the private think the LCO, as drafted, will change that? What sector are actually outside and we will continue to new powers do you think are required and what new depend upon the agreements, voluntary agreements, powers do you think the LCO gives? if you like, in those cases. We do note certain specific Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) As areas within the private sector where we believe there you said, the Welsh Language Board have stated is a need for them to come under the scope of the clearly that they feel the powers are not currently Order and they are generally in the utilities sector, adequate. When a situation arises where a public the water and energy sectors, things which come body does not respond adequately to a problem or a under the scope of the 1993 Act or which have shortcoming which the Board have identified, operated voluntarily under that system. So what is having received a complaint, and it is not possible to important is that we create this level playing field, if change that under the current legislation the Order, you like, between the diVerent bodies or between as it has been formulated, permits us to create a those diVerent companies and they are the kinds of system then whereby that sanction could be services which are essential to the way in which strengthened. We, of course, have talked about society lives. It is not just an option to have water or creating the role of a Commissioner and part of the energy into the home, or whatever, so that really is work of the Commissioner would be to deal with the criteria. The other area which has been included cases of that nature. Once again, as in the last in the LCO as it stands is the area of answer, there are examples across Europe where this telecommunications and it is important to note, I happens. We were recently talking to the Language think, that the current Government here in Commissioner of Ireland and even though he has Westminster has recently stated, for example, that not yet had an example where the sanctions have there is a need to have broadband into all homes in been used, he believes it is useful and essential that the United Kingdom, which shows how essential that kind of back-up exists. I think you received telecommunications are to the way in which we live evidence from Catalonia itself which paints a similar these days. So I accept that a number of bodies picture where legislating through sanctions or within the private sector have stated some punishing a body which may contravene the uncertainty about this, but the majority are requirements is something which does not happen supportive of the principle of having the power to very often, but it is important that it is in place just legislate transferred to the Assembly. I think that is as some kind of backstop, as we would say. what you would expect the sector to say. I think I am right in saying that the current Government in Westminster intends to legislate in the field of Q293 Mark Pritchard: The Welsh language is lyrical, equality and to legislate within the private sector, it is poetic, it is a very beautiful language and as and the private sector has said quite clearly that they somebody who, when growing up, spent a large part are not happy. That really is the response we would of my childhood in Wales, whilst I am not fluent I do expect, but it is also fair to say that many companies appreciate and recognise the value of the language. in the private sector already do operate bilingually in Would you say that the Welsh language is something the way they communicate with their customers, and which unifies Wales? we think about here the energy companies, or the Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) That main energy companies in Wales, and the water is a very good question. I think the Welsh language sector, of course. Of course, a good example of the is one of Wales’s treasures and it is important that private sector is BT itself. everyone, whether they be Welsh speakers or not, shares that treasure. I do not think you have to be able to speak the Welsh language to take pride in the Q291 Mark Williams: Of course, there are fact that the language has survived almost 1600 or precedents around the world where what you are 1700 years in diYcult circumstances and that people suggesting does work perfectly adequately in the continue to use it from day to day. I would say that telecommunications sector and elsewhere. We had if you had asked me the same question 30, 40 years evidence from Catalonia last week to this ago, then I would not be able to say honestly that the Committee. language unites Wales but, as the evidence of the Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Well, most recent research and opinion polls shows, more you have answered your own question yourself and more people do feel that the Welsh language really, have you not? In asking it, it was noting that belongs to them whether they speak it or not. One if you buy a relatively new mobile phone these days piece of evidence in relation to that is the number of you will have a choice of languages on the screen, non-Welsh speakers who send their children to and of course you can receive minority languages, if Welsh medium schools. that is the correct term for them, lesser used languages, if you like, such as Catalan and also the Galician language in Spain. They are oVered as a Q294 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) language twice, so it is not diYcult. A company from Good afternoon. I need to be careful that I do not Bridgend recently exhibited at the Millennium actually go after the issue of Measures, but you Centre its ability to prepare this service and include yourself referred to the role of an Ombudsman. If the Welsh language. you could just confirm in a few words, perhaps, Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 45
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch would a Commissioner have the function of an which will include all of those and will then allow Ombudsman, somebody to enforce it if the need flexibility for the future if, say, a new body was to be arose? Is that where the enforcement role would lie? created which fell within those categories, including Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) You providing services to the public. That really is the have noted that I do not want to discuss the issue of important criteria. It is the issue of providing a the Measures this afternoon, and I do not, but what service to the public and that liaison between the has been said clearly in the One Wales document is public and the service which is being oVered and that the Government would, of course, wish to see ensuring the element of bilingualism is included in the establishment of the role of a Commissioner, that service, even though what you would expect would wish to give the rights to receive services from bodies would vary from body to body through the medium of Welsh and provide equal depending on the nature of that body. status to both Welsh and English. The exact nature of the role of the Commissioner is something to be discussed further, but certainly you would expect Q297 Mr David Jones: In particular, you have got that a person or a Commission would have some role three types of utility suppliers—gas, water and in enforcement, of course. electricity. There are, of course, other types of energy Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank you. I suppliers who are not included within that. We had hope the public and the press realise that it was evidence last week from Npower and E.ON, who actually a member of Plaid Cymru who asked that described it as anomalous, for example, that it is question about the Measure. That is the last time only gas and electricity of all forms of energy that are such a question will be asked in this Committee actually included in that category. Why did you not, for example, widen it to energy rather than gas and electricity? Q295 Mr David Jones: (Through an Interpreter) The Mr Alun Ffred Jones: This is partly historical in the LCO lists categories of bodies which come under the sense that these were nationalised utilities, of course, Measure rather than naming individual bodies. Do and therefore the way the legislation has developed you think the LCO is clear enough about which over the years has come from that perception of bodies are included and which are not included as it these as essential building blocks of society. I is drafted? presume that “electricity services” will include any Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) The form of electricity however it is produced. It is not intention of the LCO as it currently stands is to build confined to electricity from gas, for example, or from upon the 1993 Act. So the LCO includes each of any other particular power source. It is the interface those bodies which come under the 1993 Act and between the service and the public that is important. also those bodies which have volunteered to come under the 1993 Act. So the intention is that all of those will be included. But the intention of the LCO Q298 Mr David Jones: Yes, but, for example, you as drafted with categories of bodies listed is to ensure have not got petrol and you have not got diesel. I you have the flexibility in the future. If, for example, understand that you refer to this being a legacy of there is a change in the way public services are privatisation, but nevertheless we are living in a oVered and that some might be privatised, or diVerent environment now, we have moved on from whatever, then that service is included within the then, and whilst I can fully understand the historic scope of the Measure as it will be drafted and reasons for including both gas and electricity it does formulated. Of course, it is a matter for the Measure seem to me anomalous that other forms of energy are then and deliberations which will occur in excluded. formulating the Measure to decide which bodies Mr Alun Ffred Jones: Well, it says, “gas, water or exactly will come within the ambit of the Measure as electricity services”, so “electricity services” can it will be drafted, but I think the definitions as they include electricity produced from any source stand are quite clear. As I say, it is a matter for the including hydroelectric. Measure then and for the Assembly in dealing with the debates and it will be up to them to then decide which exact bodies will come under the Measure. Q299 Mr David Jones: Yes, but nevertheless it is confined to electricity as a form of energy.It does not extend, for example, to the supply of diesel or the Q296 Mr David Jones: Presumably you gave supply of petrol? considerable thought to which categories should Mr Alun Ffred Jones: No, it does not. To be fair, the come within the scope of the proposed matter 20.1. electricity services are what you would expect a Can you tell the Committee what was your rationale person in a household to receive. That is the service for deciding upon each of those individual they receive. I think if you extended it to what you categories? were suggesting—petrol, for example—you would Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I be extending it to private businesses and garages, think I tried to explain that in my previous response, and so forth. i.e. in looking at the scope of the 1993 legislation, you have, as we know, something over 500 bodies where there are currently language schemes and Q300 Mr David Jones: I am not suggesting you certainly our intention then is to build upon those should extend it. The point I am drawing to your bodies and those services which are oVered. The best attention is the fact that other witnesses have way of doing that is to create categories of bodies described this as “anomalous”. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Ev 46 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch
Mr Alun Ffred Jones: I do not think it is anomalous. Measure which is discussed in this place, and It is an attempt to capture the situation and to ensure evidence will be called and people will bring their that households have the choice of interfacing with cases forward. In essence, I go back to the point that the suppliers in their chosen language. we are really trying to develop the 1993 Act and we have examples from the private sector about what is Q301 Mr David Jones: What about other services expected under the 1993 Act, for example the water such as banking, insurance? service in Wales, and that is a kind of level of duty Mr Alun Ffred Jones: The scope of the LCO is the which you would expect in outline really without scope of the LCO and this is the agreement we had. tying us to anything specifically. That really in There is an argument to be made about banking, and outline is the pattern you are looking at. You can of course some of the High Street banks actually do also look at the companies which have done this provide elements of bilingual services, but this is the voluntarily, such as BT, which was again in this list we are agreed upon. context of the contract between the company and the customer. That is what we are concentrating on Q302 Mr David Jones: Could you expand on that and that is where we are going to concentrate our point, “This is what was agreed”? Agreed between energy when it comes to drawing up the Measure. whom? Mr Alun Ffred Jones: Well, agreed by the Government. Q307 Mrs James: (Through an Interpreter) Thank you. The telecommunications sector has given evidence to us here and they have told us quite Q303 Mr David Jones: With whom? Mr Alun Ffred Jones: This is a Government proposal plainly and clearly that they are a bit concerned and the Government LCO and these are the services about what is happening. For example, Virgin we think it is right and proper should be included. Media has a large centre in the Swansea east area and I have been to see the company to talk about the problems and what is happening down in the centre, Q304 Mr David Jones: Would you regard insurance but they have said that they are concerned about the or banking services as services to the public, public additional costs which will be incurred, at the services? Mr Alun Ffred Jones: I suppose there is an argument moment they do not have much demand for Welsh to be made, but we are talking about building on and regional services, so they are concerned, and other developing, of course, the 1993 Act and that is why companies are concerned. So why have you included these particular elements are included. this sector? Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) The rationale for naming the sector is quite clear. As I Q305 Mr David Jones: So eVectively you would regard what is proposed here as being a development have said, the current Government has noted how of the 1993 legislation? important telecommunications now is to the way in Mr Alun Ffred Jones: Certainly, yes. which we live. It is not just an add-on to society any Mr David Jones: Thank you. more. Broadband and mobile phones, et cetera, and more and more services are going to be oVered through these means, so I think it is essential that Q306 Mrs James: (Through an Interpreter) Good this area is included, particularly when you talk afternoon. Minister, you have already talked about the private sector and if I could ask you more about trying to promote the Welsh language questions about that, the private sector amongst young people. You know just as well as I do representatives have expressed concerns about the how children use the whole range of lack of information available in relation to what they communications and the new technology and I think could face under future legislation. How, then, have it is very important that the Welsh language should you worked with and engaged with the private sector have its place within that particular area. In terms of in preparing this LCO? cost, of course what is important again is that we Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) create a level playing field between the companies There are a number of meetings which have taken which operate in the field. For example, one place with the private sector. I am sure I have got a company in Wales has developed a number of list of them somewhere here and I am sure you services, Welsh services and bilingual services for its yourselves have also got a list in the evidence I have customers but that is not true for other companies submitted to you. I am not going to read them all which are competing with that company, so it is out, but they include services such as trains, energy, important that there should be a level playing field telecoms, water, postal services, et cetera, so there and a common standard included. In terms of the has been quite a lot of discussion with the private concerns about costs, of course that is something we sector. What the sector says in terms of its concerns would expect any company to note but, as has about what will happen is that it is quite already been said, these companies operate across understandable but it will actually be a matter for the whole of Europe and the world and in every area the Measure to decide. Of course, you must they have to deal with diVerent languages. So if they remember that there is no hidden list which is can deal with Galician or the Catalonian language or suddenly going to appear. The duties we would wish the Basque language, then there is no reason why the to impose upon the bodies which are listed are a Welsh language could not be included in that mix of matter of discussion and open debate, as any languages. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 47
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch
Q308 Mr David Jones: Getting back to energy believe is important is that we confirm the 1993 production, I told you that the evidence we had from legislation and ensure that all companies or bodies E.ON and Npower was that they regarded certain which are included under the 1993 Act are included anomalies to be present in the proposed Order as within the new legislation in order for us to confirm drafted. One of them was in connection with energy that situation and therefore we do not want to see production. They took the view that energy anybody being lost out of the system. production was not an endeavour which had a consumer-facing stance. It was anomalous for Q310 Nia GriYth: (Through an Interpreter) energy production to be included in the draft Order. Minister, why have you decided then to include the What would you say to that? railways but not other forms of public transport like Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Let bus services, ships and airports? us just start then with the energy companies in Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) general. A number of the companies which supply Partially this again is historically because the energy or electricity to our homes already have railways come under the 1993 Act, but not all aspects bilingual policies in the way in which they deal with are included under the 1993 Act, quite strangely. For customers, so there is no problem in that respect in example, I am almost sure it is safe to say that under essence. Talking then about the companies which the current legislation the ticket sales service actually produce electricity, there are two things here. We do is not included, so it is important that we include not know in the future what the shape and form of railways and that all aspects of the work of the the industry will be and so the production companies V railways are included in the current legislation. That could also become companies which o er services, is why railways have been included. You have asked so it is important that we are ready for that and that about bus services. To the extent that bus companies the legislation can deal with that. More importantly, have contracts with local government—and many of any company which produces electricity has to them do—and also they receive public subsidies, produce it somewhere and if a company which then it is very possible that some companies or produces electricity wanted to establish a station, perhaps very many companies will come under the whether that is a nuclear station or a hydroelectricity scope of the legislation and we believe in those areas station, or any kind of station, then that process it is important that local authorities will place those would mean they would deal with the public. duties upon them, but at the moment that is the Therefore, it is important that when those rationale of it, i.e. that we need to make the area companies do that the bilingual provision becomes consistent within railways and then those companies a natural part of that process. That is why we have which receive public funds or have contracts with the included the production companies. I accept, of public sector would be included in that way. course, that in energy from day to day there is very little liaison with those companies and the customers, but if you take, for example, in my Q311 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I constituency the Dinorwig electricity scheme, the wanted to ask you a question on the issue of the company there attracts people and invites people in £200,000 question. First of all, how did you come to to look at the way in which that operates and a decision on that figure of £200,000 as a minimum contacts schools very often. It is important, for bodies receiving public funds to come under the therefore, that that provision is available bilingually Order? with them for dealing with the public. Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) The issue of £200,000—we have reached that for a number of reasons. You must remember also that Q309 Mr David Jones: Could not the same argument any body must also oVer services to the public. It is apply to almost any industry because, after all, any not suYcient just that you are receiving the money, company operating in Wales will interface with the you actually have to oVer a service to the public. The public to a greater or lesser extent? Does that not kinds of body we felt it was important to include, show your argument as being fallacious, really? If which are not currently included, are independent your argument is that you have to have the necessary bodies, of course, like the Botanic Gardens or the powers because electricity supply companies Millennium Centre in CardiV. Clearly,if you provide interface with the public, you could say that, for that kind of public subsidy to them, it is clear that example, about banks, insurance companies, about there is a public value to the activities they oVer and any company which operates within Wales. so it is appropriate, therefore, that they come under Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) No, the scope of the Order and in due course under the the companies which produce energy produce Measure. In doing that, of course, we think it is electricity and electricity is one of the essentials of important also for us to provide a clear sign that we life for everyone. In that respect there is a direct link have no intention of catching everybody who between their activity and the way in which people receives public funding because grants, of course, are live their lives. That is why I think it is important that given regularly to all kinds of bodies. So by setting we do include them, and they do come under the the level at £200,000 you are talking about quite 1993 Act anyway and so it is important that we do significant bodies. You are talking about bodies not lose any companies out of that system. In due which oVer services across a period of years and it is course, perhaps somebody in the future may see that important to realise that if you want anybody or any there is a need to broaden the provisions to include, company to oVer a bilingual service, then you have for example, banks, but at the moment what we to develop those processes over a period of time. You Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Ev 48 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch are talking about structures and staV development, to provide Welsh medium education. I know that the for example, so it is not appropriate for companies 1993 Act refers, of course, to one aspect of creating which might just receive funding in one year but not Welsh education plans, but to be honest the situation the next. So in order that we can give an assurance post-1993 means that the current powers are not to the private sector that we are not going to adequate. So you could ask then, “Why do you not suddenly land upon them from Heaven one day and insist that there are more powers?” but we believe tell them that they have to do some unreasonable that the powers do exist there within the Assembly things, we have set the line at the level we have. It already within the education department and that could be £190,000, it could be £250,000, but of that is the appropriate way forward to develop course some people have said, “What about Welsh medium and bilingual education in Wales. inflation?” There is scope within the Order to raise those levels but not to drop them. Q315 Mrs James: (Through an Interpreter) You are confident then that that is not going to impact upon Q312 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, people’s rights? that was one of the things I was going to ask you, Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) You actually, when I noticed it was £200,000 or more, a may know, perhaps, that there is a Welsh medium minimum of £200,000. Do you have any idea then of education strategy being developed by the Welsh the number of bodies which would be likely to be Assembly Government at the moment which will be caught in this? directly involved with this particular area and the Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I powers which are available to the Government are have referred to two specific bodies and those are the adequate for implementing that strategy. kinds of bodies we would expect. Once again, this is consistent with the rest of the Order, which attempts Q316 Mark Williams: A general question but one to provide flexibility into the future so that if there is which, I think, underpins the whole debate. Matter another body which may be created which is perhaps 20.1 includes provision for “Promoting or oVering a service to the public and which receives a facilitating the use of the Welsh language; and the significant amount of money from the taxpayer, then treatment of Welsh and English languages on the that, too, could be included without having to name basis of equality”. What does the provision in the individual bodies. That is the problem when you do LCO for the treatment of both languages on the name individual bodies. basis of equality actually mean? Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I Q313 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) think I am right in saying that that treatment of You have answered the question more or less in Welsh and English on the basis of equality actually terms of bodies receiving a one-oV grant, a one-oV stems from the 1993 Act and that term is payment. Questions have been asked about bodies comprehensible. It means that you can bring receiving Lottery funding. Would they then, for Measures in which would promote the Welsh example, come under the LCO? language in order to oVer a service which Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) The corresponds with what is available in English, but it principle we have in relation to the Lottery is that the does not mean that you have to ensure that the same Lottery is a pot of money which exists outside of the level of service is available in Welsh as in English at natural system of public funding. I know there are all times because there is no need to have that and arguments and deliberations to be had around that, that would be unreasonable and very diYcult to but I think it is a cleaner and simpler system to keep operate. the Lottery grant funding outside of the scope of the Order. Q317 Mark Williams: But it is very much building Ms Arch: (Through an Interpreter) Lottery money on the provisions, as you say, of the 1993 legislation? would come within the definition in clause (b) of the Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, definition of public money, but only to the extent it is a development of the 1993 Act and permits them that that funding is given to those bodies which to do anything which promotes the use of the Welsh actually allocate and distribute Lottery funding. It language, and that is what we will be trying to do does not bring the grant recipient bodies into the through the Measures. scope of the LCO under that definition. Perhaps they V come in under a di erent clause, but not in relation Q318 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Could I to that clause. ask a question about the status of the English language? The Explanatory Memorandum makes Q314 Mrs James: (Through an Interpreter) Turning reference to the Welsh Assembly Government’s now then to education, why has education not been intention to, in your words, “confirm oYcial status included in the proposed Order and could this for both Welsh and English”. Have you looked into impact on the right to have Welsh medium the situation or any constitutional diYculties which education? could arise on the basis of the fact that there is no Act Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) The stating that English is the oYcial language of the reason why education is not included is because we United Kingdom? are of the opinion that there are adequate powers Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) This within the Assembly, within the field of education, to is an area where the lawyers themselves can have a respond to the needs we would anticipate are needed field day and I am sure there will be an awful lot of Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 49
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch deliberations on this in the future but, as I for a commissioner to protect the services through understand it, if there is a need it is possible to ensure the medium of English. I presume that in general that status can be conveyed both to English and even if the services themselves are not always Welsh. The problem, as you have stated, with the excellent, there is no issue ever about whether those words “oYcial status” is that it is not defined within services are available through the medium of legislation at the moment, so any status which is English. given to the Welsh language through the medium of any Measure would have to be tied to specific duties Q325 Mr David Jones: Interestingly, evidence we because that is how you define the status of any have had from other witnesses where Language language, because there is no formal constitution for Commissioners have been created shows that the United Kingdom. So you would tie the status to usually—not invariably, but usually—the V the service you would be o ering rather than making Commissioner has oversight of all oYcial languages. a statement, an unclear symbolic statement, about Mr Alun Ffred Jones: That is not correct. That is not that. I do not know if that answers your question. the case in Ireland, which is the only example which Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) I think Mr I can bring to mind. David Jones is very keen to ask a question on that.
Q319 Mr David Jones: Yes. I would be interested in Q326 Mr David Jones: It is in Quebec, for example. Mr Alun Ffred Jones: I would suggest to you that the asking Ms Arch, actually. Do you know what body V would be responsible for the administration of the situation in Quebec is very di erent from the oYcial status of the Welsh language were this situation in Wales, and in fact that is true of proposal to come to fruition? practically all the examples we can give, that the context in which any language Measure is Ms Arch: I am not sure that is a legal matter. That is V more of a policy matter. introduced is very, very di erent from one place to another and I would suggest that the situation between French and English in Quebec is not Q320 Mr David Jones: I am going to lead into a legal remotely similar to the situation between the Welsh question, but perhaps we can have a policy answer. language and the English language in Wales. Mr Jones, which body would be responsible for the oversight of the oYcial status of the Welsh language? Mr Alun Ffred Jones: As I tried to explain, there is a Q327 Mr David Jones: Can I ask Ms Arch the legal diYculty here in terms of making a statement about question, then? Can you tell me, Ms Arch, where in the oYcial status of any language, the Welsh the Government of Wales Act 2006 is provision language as well, and that is why I said the status of made for the Assembly to make any declaration a language is connected to the services provided whatever in respect of the English language? It has through the medium of that language, and that is such power in respect of the Welsh language. That is what would have to be done in terms of any status specifically provided. Where is the power in respect given to the Welsh language. It would have to be of the English language? linked to the duties imposed on any organisation or Ms Arch: The matter proposed in the current LCO company. proposes to give the Assembly power to treat both Welsh and English languages equally. Therefore, if a Q321 Mr David Jones: I understand that. Do you provision is to be made in respect of the Welsh envisage a Language Commissioner? language, that LCO gives the power also to make Mr Alun Ffred Jones: A Language Commissioner is equivalent legal provision in respect of the English part of our intention. language.
Q322 Mr David Jones: A Welsh Language Q328 Mr David Jones: It does not refer to the Commissioner? English language at all in the Act, does it? Mr Alun Ffred Jones: A Welsh Language Ms Arch: No, but the Matter, which goes under the Commissioner. Field of Welsh language, refers to producing equality of treatment between both Welsh and English Q323 Mr David Jones: It could be an English languages and as such we would say that relates to Language Commissioner? the Field of the Welsh language. Mr Alun Ffred Jones: There is no intention of that. Chairman: Mr Jones, Mr Hywel Williams wishes to ask a supplementary question. I will come back to Q324 Mr David Jones: So you would have two you in a second. languages, Welsh and English, both with oYcial status but a commissioner only for the Welsh Q329 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I language? am not a lawyer, so it appears to me that the only Mr Alun Ffred Jones: The intention of the LCO as it relationship which this LCO has in relation to the stands is to create the post of a Welsh Language English language in oYcial status terms is Commissioner and that Commissioner is there comparing the status of the Welsh language and the specifically to develop and expand services through English language, and that is why the English the medium of Welsh because there are deficiencies language is in, so that you can see that it is there. As there. That is the purpose of a Language far as I can see, there is really no question about its Commissioner. I am not aware that there is any need validity and the reason there is that we can make sure Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Ev 50 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch then that under certain circumstances the Welsh Q334 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I language should have the same status. Is that a just want to go back to this question about the reasonable description of the situation? validity or a declaration regarding the status of the Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) A Welsh language. I know you are not responsible for number of politicians have said that certainly since Scotland at all, but I would like to refer very quickly the debate around the 1993 Act, of course, that the to the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, where Welsh language and the English language are oYcial it says in the foreword: “An Act of the Scottish languages in Wales. The 1993 Act refers to the Parliament to establish a body having functions treatment of both Welsh and English languages on exercisable with a view to securing the status of the the basis of equality, so it appears that both Gaelic language as an oYcial language for Scotland languages, therefore, have to be considered on commanding equal respect to the English language.” those terms. What I want to ask you, Ms Arch, is, do you know of any legal challenge to that statement in terms of Q330 Mr David Jones: Ms Arch, notwithstanding its legal validity? your previous answer, would you not say that Ms Arch: (Through an Interpreter) This is part of making a positive declaration of oYcial status for Scottish law and I am afraid that I am not aware the Welsh language might arguably be regarded as whether there has been a challenge or not. ultra vires under the terms of the Act? Ms Arch: It is not conventional but I think it is not Q335 Hywel Williams: The point, of course, is that without precedent to have a declaratory statement in this statement has been in place for at least three a statute. years and you are not aware of any problem that has arisen? Q331 Mr David Jones: If it is not conventional, then Ms Arch: (Through an Interpreter) Not as far as I it is arguable, do you agree? know, no. Ms Arch: You can argue that. I think it is not Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Thank without precedent. you very much. Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Mr David Q332 Nia GriYth: (Through an Interpreter) Why Jones is keen to ask another supplementary. does the Order talk about the establishment of freedom to use the Welsh language rather than a Q336 Mr David Jones: I have been put on the spot right? again! It is correct to say, is it not, that the word Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) It “oYcial” appears in the title of the Scottish Act appears that we have the right to speak Welsh which Mr Williams referred to? Does it actually anyway and that is what is said. The freedom to appear in the body of the Act? speak Welsh we have, but what has been challenged, Ms Arch: I think it does in one section, in delineating of course, has been the right to speak the language the role of the Gaelic Language Board. amongst people in certain situations, and so the intention is to confirm, if you like, that freedom to Q337 Mr David Jones: Could you possibly let us speak Welsh and to ensure that nobody can hinder have a note on that? or hamper you from doing that. But in saying that, Ms Arch: I can, yes.1 that does mean that we would have to define that Mr David Jones: Thank you. freedom and in doing so you could have examples where you could say that you do not have the Q338 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Could I freedom. Am I right in saying that? You do not have ask one final question? It is a question relating to the freedom to speak Welsh, for example, even cross-border issues. Do you expect there to be any though I am not an expert in this particular area, as cross-border problems in relation to the Order, for a lawyer it appears that you could look at the issue example with transport organisations/companies? of health and safety, for example, as a reason where Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) The you would limit somebody’s right to speak Welsh. Government of Wales Act, I think, refers to the fact that our rights—what is the technical term here?—in Q333 Nia GriYth: (Through an Interpreter) So how relation to Wales, so whilst that in one sense limits then would it be possible to limit that right? How the main purpose of the legislation just within the would it be possible to limit freedom? boundaries of Wales, it does not actually limit the Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) service. If, for example, a company is established There are two things here, are there not? One is that outside of Wales but oVers a service in Wales, then we want to confirm that freedom and make it the Act can relate to them. If you are referring impossible for anyone to stop you from doing that specifically to the train companies, for example, unless there is an adequate reason for doing so. One when you say “cross-border”, I do not think that the example of an adequate reason would be, say, the train companies have raised any questions about example of a situation where you may endanger that, even though they do operate, of course, outside someone’s health or someone’s life by speaking the geographical borders of Wales, and I do not Welsh in certain situations. That, I think, exists think we would see there being any problems arising already but you would safeguard that freedom in because of that. conventional situations, whether it is in the workplace or outside. 1 Not printed Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 51
27 April 2009 Mr Alun Ffred Jones AM, Mr Huw Onllwyn Jones and Ms Nerys Arch
Q339 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank dialect. If you were to provide any oYcial status to you very much for your evidence today and may I, any dialect, I hope it will be that particular area of as Chairman, extend my thanks to you, Minister, for Wales. As the late Ray Gravelle said, “South-west giving your evidence in clear Welsh, a Swansea valley is best.” Mr Alun Ffred Jones: (Through an Interpreter) As someone who married a girl from that area, I will consider the matter very carefully.
Witnesses: Mr Wayne David MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr Geth Williams, Head of Legislation Policy, and Dr James George, Legal Adviser, Wales OYce, gave evidence.
Q340 Chairman: Welcome to the Welsh AVairs Committee in terms of its own deliberations. I have Committee once again, Minister. For the record, to say there has not been a mass response to the could you introduce yourself and your colleagues, public request from the Secretary of State. I think please. there have been about 70 responses altogether from Mr David: Thank you, Dr Francis. It is nice to be organisations within Wales and also members of the back again. I am Wayne David, Parliamentary public. I would not claim for one moment that it is Under-Secretary of State at the Wales OYce. To my possible to draw any scientific conclusions from the left is Geth Williams, who is Head of Legislative respondents, but I think it is possible, and I am Policy at the Wales OYce and to my right is James happy to say a few words about what the responses George, who is a legal adviser at the Wales OYce. contain.
Q341 Chairman: Thank you very much. Could I Q344 Mr David Jones: I was just wondering when begin by asking you, Minister, a very that consultation process will be regarded as straightforward question. Do you agree with the concluded. Welsh Assembly Government Minister that the Mr David: I think the formal date was announced by present Welsh language legislation is inadequate? the Secretary of State in the second week of April, Mr David: Yes. I think our starting point is that great but certainly he is continuing to receive progress has been made in enhancing the position of representations and those representations, as the Welsh language over the past few years, but there always, will be passed on to this Committee to help is scope certainly to enhance further the position of you with your work. the Welsh language and we are in broad agreement with what has been proposed by the Welsh Assembly Government. Q345 Mr David Jones: So we will have copies of all the responses before we deliver our own report? Mr David: Yes, you will.2 Q342 Chairman: What is your evidence of demand Mr David Jones: Thank you. for that additional legislation? Mr David: We are aware of the opinion polls, which were referred to by the Welsh Assembly Government Q346 Mark Williams: You talked about the demand, Minister. Also, I think there is a wealth of sometimes you talked about the progression and we heard anecdotal, sometimes more scientific information to earlier from the Minister about the represented show that the Welsh language is much stronger than progression from the 1993 legislation, but why is it it was a few years ago. Perhaps crucially, there is a necessary to limit the scope of Measures which the much broader acceptance of the role of Welsh Assembly can make in this area rather than language in Welsh life than there was before. This transferring wholesale competence over the Welsh certainly applies to the vast majority of Welsh people language? who are non-Welsh speakers. They significantly Mr David: Certainly in principle the Wales OYce believe that the Welsh language is an important part supports the fact that the Welsh language should be of their culture, as it is obviously central to the legislated for by the Welsh Assembly Government, culture of Welsh speaking people. but we recognise that there are practical constraints Chairman: Mr David Jones wishes to ask a about a matter of principle. What we have before us supplementary. is the considered opinion of the Welsh Assembly Government and they are specifically asking for the Q343 Mr David Jones: In terms of assessing the transfers in the two matters which you have before demand for additional information, I understand you. the Secretary of State is consulting widely. Can you tell the Committee how many bodies he is Q347 Mark Williams: I guess those constraints are consulting with? described really in the list of categories included in Mr David: Certainly the Secretary of State, on matter 20.1. Do you agree with that approach and receiving the draft legislative LCO, did indicate do you agree with the specifics of matter 20.1, the publicly that he wanted to have a public consultation areas covered by the LCO? and the responses we have had as a result of that consultation will be passed on for the benefit of this 2 Not printed Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Ev 52 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
27 April 2009 Mr Wayne David MP, Mr Geth Williams and Dr James George
Mr David: We certainly are in agreement with the Mr David: We have had information from industry approach and support the bid being put forward by and we have heard first-hand exactly what their the Welsh Assembly Government. We do have some concerns are. We have not, however, received issues ourselves which we would like to discuss representations directly from other parts of the further. We are particularly planning to give European Union, but I have to say that I have read considerable thought and care to the comments the evidence which has been given to your which we have received, but also the deliberations of Committee regarding Catalonia and I think it is this Committee as well. The Wales OYce and also important to consider that practical example of how the Welsh Assembly Government would be it would appear things have not been as problematic extremely interested to receive your considered as they might have been and put it alongside the opinion, particularly on the categories which you concerns which are expressed by some of the have already touched upon in matter 20.1. companies in this country. I think what we need to do is to have a measured, considered evaluation and come to a conclusion on that basis. Q348 Mark Williams: One of those categories we have heard a lot about in this Committee is telecommunications and we have had some Q350 Hywel Williams: I have to share my concern representations suggesting that telecommunications with you that the representations we had from the should be withdrawn from the list. We have also telecommunications people here were from their UK heard about the international precedents. What is representatives, whereas these companies work in your view on removing the telecommunications or several countries and the views of either their parent retaining it in the list? companies or their subsidiaries abroad perhaps might be somewhat diVerent. That is just a Mr David: We have also received representations comment. from people in the industry who have expressed their Mr David: I note your comment. concerns and I think those concerns have to be listened to and addressed. That is why I think it is very important to have this debate about Q351 Mr David Jones: Minister, you have telecommunications in particular. For example, I mentioned that you have certain issues and you have know that BT have given evidence to this Committee outlined telecoms and the potential for additional Y and also made representations to the Wales OYce. burdens upon business at this di cult economic They are concerned about a number of issues. They time. Are there any other issues you are concerned are concerned about the practicality of this applying about? to the telecommunications sector and I have to say Mr David: I would emphasise that we are in broad it is a very complicated area because the technology agreement and any points we want further is developing apace all the time. It is impossible clarification about and think are worthy of debate simply to say that this applies to the current state of must be seen in that context. That is the point I make technological development, full stop. I think we first of all. I do, however, think that if we look at have to, if possible, look ahead to the future and matter 20.1 and, for example, clause (h), we see the look at some of the issues there. I also know that phrase, “all those other services which relate to any concern has been expressed about the fact that if of those services”, our concern is that that might be there is not to be a voluntary scheme, there should be vague or interpreted in a way which perhaps was not a level playing field. I think it is important to look at intended by the Welsh Assembly Government. I the practicalities of how this might be achieved. I think that is possibly one area which is worthy of would add one further point, however. I do take on debate so that we can have further clarification on board the very strong point which is made by the that, because that is an important point. Taking up Welsh Assembly Government, that we cannot pre- what you have just mentioned about burdens on empt what might be in a Measure, but I think that businesses, naturally I think we have to be mindful of that, especially at this diYcult economic time. We nevertheless it is important for the greatest possible know the clear policy pronouncements of the Welsh clarity to be given to industry at this time so that they Assembly Government with regard to that and we have some sort of idea what might be envisaged for know what the policy intention is, but I think we them. have to make sure that we have the tightest possible Chairman: This Committee is not interested in wording in this piece of legislation so that there is no discussing the Measures, as you know. room for doubt or equivocation.
Q349 Hywel Williams: You said that the Wales OYce Q352 Mrs James: Are you content that listing has invited submissions and comments. Have you categories of bodies is the most eVective way of really sought any information on issues which might providing clarity regarding which bodies fall within be of concern to you? I am thinking particularly in the scope of the proposed Order? terms of telecommunications and I am sure you are Mr David: I think it is a very practical way to do it. I aware of the evidence provided to us by the Catalan think we have the advantage of having the 1993 Act, Government last week, which indicated there which by common agreement has taken the position seemed to be no real technical problems. Have you, of the Welsh language forward and I think this as the Wales OYce, sought that sort of information Legislative Competence Order draws much of its either from other parts of the UK or in any other practical wording as well as spirit from that very parts of Europe, or elsewhere? sound piece of legislation in 1993. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
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27 April 2009 Mr Wayne David MP, Mr Geth Williams and Dr James George
Q353 Mrs James: Have you considered whether expressed was that certain suppliers again might there are likely to be any cross-border issues arising decide not to enter the Welsh market, and again that from the draft LCO? For example—and we have would be to the disbenefit of Welsh consumers. heard a little bit about this—what would be the Mr David: I have to say that is a theoretical position of cross-border transport providers? possibility, but I think there is very little practical Mr David: We have not received any representations evidence which has been brought to demonstrate from organisations which might be considered to be that that scenario could actually come about. cross-border. Obviously we are mindful of this issue and we think it is something which should be to the Q358 Mr David Jones: We had evidence before the fore of the Welsh Assembly Government’s mind Committee last week that that was a concern. when it puts forward Measures, but I do not see it as Mr David: Well, it is certainly not evidence which has a huge problem at this stage. I think it is pretty self- come in my direction. evident that this LCO applies specifically to Wales and I do not at this stage see any diYculty with cross- border issues. Q359 Mr David Jones: Presumably you read the evidence we have? Mr David: I will certainly read that evidence, but I Q354 Hywel Williams: Many of our witnesses have think the Welsh Assembly Government has been called for the list of bodies to be expanded to include very, very mindful of the concerns of businesses and those involved in the financial sector, and indeed I I think the deliberations you have had and which we have had quite a heavy post bag, I think rather more have had will enhance the body of evidence they than the Wales OYce has had, though many of those have before them when it comes to drawing up the were standard letters, I must confess, topped and final Measures, which are, I remind everybody, the tailed, but that has been the call in many of those crucial things which will impact upon people at the letters as well. What is your view of including the end of the day. financial sector and also the statutory insurance sector as well? Q360 Mr David Jones: What was the view of the Mr David: I understand the strength of the Wales OYce when it saw the suggested £200,000 representation you referred to, and of course there is threshold set out in matter 20.1, paragraph (e)? a certain logic there, I cannot deny, but again taking Mr David: We think this is another area which there the point that much of the inspiration for this comes could be clarity and further debate on. from the 1993 Act, I think that is a whole new sector which at this stage the Welsh Assembly Government does not particularly want to delve into. Could I say Q361 Mr David Jones: I thought you might say that! also that I think that is sensible because we have to Mr David: Because £200,000 is a very neat figure, but be extremely mindful of the critical economic I think there is an argument to be taken further as to situation we are in and the turmoil which exists in the why exactly it is £200,000. Some of the banking sector in particular. representations we have received have drawn some attention to that and expressed some concern. The Law Society, for example, has referred to the fact Q355 Mr David Jones: If I could just follow up that that there are certain Legal Aid practices which point further. One of the concerns which have been receive in excess of £200,000 per annum and perhaps expressed to this Committee—and this certainly inadvertently they feel as though they might well be applies to the financial services—is that smaller caught in this LCO and any Measures which stem providers might decide not to enter the Welsh from it. So I think there is more of a discussion to be market, with the consequence that Welsh consumers had. I have to say, however, I can see a certain would be deprived of an element of competition amount of logic in there needing to be a figure, but which people in other parts of the country would whether or not that is the best approach we would be Y enjoy. Is that a concern which the Wales O ce has? very, very interested to have the Committee’s Mr David: It is, if you like, a concern in terms of a considered collective view on that. leitmotif, which runs through the whole debate we are having, but I do not think it is a particular concern because I think we have to not simply look Q362 Mr David Jones: What logic can you see for at the LCO but I think we have to consider the policy there being a need for a figure? pronouncement which the Welsh Assembly Mr David: I think that others, for example, have said Government has made. that there needs to be some sort of threshold otherwise you could be catching a whole host of individuals and organisations who receive very, very Q356 Mr David Jones: Which, of course, can change small sums of money. So there needs to be some sort from time to time? of threshold. Whether or not that is perhaps the best Mr David: Indeed, that is true. figure which can be selected is, I think, a matter for discussion and consideration. Q357 Mr David Jones: A similar concern was expressed last week in respect of, for example, Q363 Mr David Jones: One of the points which has electricity services. You now have online services been made, obviously, in today’s questioning is the such as uSwitch, which encourages people to switch fact that that figure could be eroded by inflation, their suppliers. One of the concerns which were although in the present circumstances it is probably Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
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27 April 2009 Mr Wayne David MP, Mr Geth Williams and Dr James George going to be augmented by deflation. It is a concern but have an operation in Wales and they might find as well that that figure may become meaningless in, themselves as part of the stipulation in that respect. say, 10 years’ time. So I think there are issues which need to be looked Mr David: That is possible. It is not my intention to at very, very carefully as far as this is concerned. suggest this, but perhaps consideration may be given to some flexibility there — Q368 Alun Michael: There is also a diVerence, is there not, between, for instance, a contractual Q364 Chairman: Or indexation? arrangement where the Assembly or a local Mr David: — to take that into account and authority is buying services and one where a grant is indexation would obviously be one method. I am not being made. Does that not also raise issues in saying that that is necessarily the way forward, but relation to third sector organisations, voluntary it is worthy of consideration. sector organisations? Mr Williams: It is worth saying it is a baseline figure Mr David: That is quite possible and I know it is of as well, it is not necessarily the figure the Assembly some concern, but also it has to be said some would have to legislate on. reassurance has been given by the Welsh Assembly Government to the Welsh Council for Voluntary Q365 Mr David Jones: I appreciate that, but as time Action, for instance, but it is something which goes on £200,000 in today’s terms may, in 20 years, people are worried about. I am just underlining the be worth £20,000. point that we need to think through very, very Mr Williams: Yes, indeed, but they could set a carefully the implications on what is quite a threshold of half a million to start with. complicated issue.
Q366 Mr David Jones: Yes. I think it is a concern and I think it is a concern which is clearly shared by the Q369 Alun Michael: I think it is reassuring that you Minister that this is a figure which appears to a are giving that amount of thought to it, but can I ask certain extent to be plucked out of the air. It seems at the end of the day, because we are fairly late in the to me from what the Minister is saying that further process now, is it the intention that the precise deep thought is going on at the moment about that requirements, the precise intentions, will be particular matter. Is that fair, Minister? incorporated into the drafting of the final draft LCO Mr David: Yes. Discussion is ongoing about it and I which you bring forward for consideration by the realise full well, having looked at some of your House more widely after these processes have been evidence, that this has been an issue raised by other completed? I think on a number of occasions the people as well. As I say,it is one of those issues which Committee has expressed concern that Legislative I think is worthy of further debate in this situation. Competence Orders should be drafted in such a way Mr Williams: It is an issue not necessarily about the so that they do precisely what they say on the tin, and £200,000 alone but also about whether it should is that not important in relation to this type of issue? apply in more than one financial year. Mr David: Yes, that is very, very important indeed, Mr David Jones: Indeed, yes. and of course we have to learn as this process matures, and of course we want to produce the best piece of legislation possible at the end of the day. Q367 Alun Michael: I am sorry I missed some of When this Committee comes to its collective view, I your earlier comments, but the figure can be think the Welsh Assembly Government and the something like a blink in a gnat’s eye to a large Secretary of State for Wales will consider your report organisation or the total income of a relatively small very, very carefully indeed and that will certainly be organisation. Similarly,the cost impact which results taken into account in the preparation of that final from hitting the threshold, however flexible the LCO which will be presented to the two Houses. threshold is, could be massive for a small Alun Michael: That is helpful. Thank you. organisation and almost insignificant for a large organisation, so without suggesting that you come down with a fresh figure, which obviously would not Q370 Hywel Williams: I just want to go back to the be realistic at this stage, how do you see it working competition issue raised by Mr Jones earlier on. in practice, wherever the line is drawn? Would you agree that establishing a level playing Mr David: I think a lot will depend on what clearer field is the essential principle here, much in the same definition there is at an appropriate stage. We do see way as when the minimum wage was brought in by some diYculties with that. For example, in matter 22 Government, the concerns people had about there is a reference to public monies and monies competition issues then, which were addressed by being made available directly or indirectly by—and making sure that it would apply to all and it enabled there is a whole list of organisations. It is quite them to put a requirement on all as well. Would you possible, for example, that we are talking about see that as being a suitable comparison? grants from the European Union through the Mr David: I think certainly in some ways it is, but the European Commission from the structural funds, principle of having a level playing field is, I think, a and it is possible, at least in theory, that very important principle. As we all know, business organisations might be caught in that respect. It is organisations and large businesses, large utilities in possible, too, that organisations, bodies operating particular, have said they would prefer a voluntary on an England and Wales basis, might be recipients scheme, but if there is not to be a voluntary scheme of grants of whatever kind when they are in England then there should be a level playing field. I think that Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
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27 April 2009 Mr Wayne David MP, Mr Geth Williams and Dr James George is very, very important so that no particular Dr George: It is certainly a point which we organisation is disadvantaged. I think that is a considered carefully when we were looking at the cardinal principle which needs to be upheld. proposal, but we do feel that setting out the existing Hywel Williams: Thank you. status of the Welsh language and saying that the English language has the same status is within the Q371 Nia GriYth: You were here, Minister, for the powers which the Assembly can be given. discussion we had with the Assembly Minister and Mr David: It might be helpful to you if I just refer to Y the comments of Sir Wyn Roberts when he was o cials on the fact that the Explanatory Y Memorandum makes reference to the fact that they Minister of State at the Welsh O ce in July 1993 would want to confirm oYcial status for both during the passage of the 1993 Bill, which became English and Welsh. Have you got any further the Act. He said: “Let me be quite clear. The comments to make on that, particularly in respect of Government starts from the simple premise that the Welsh language already enjoys ‘oYcial status’ and any constitutional issues which might arise? Y Mr David: No. I have to say that I heard the evidence can therefore be said to be an o cial language in from the Welsh Assembly Government Minister and Wales.” we are in broad agreement with the evidence and the case which he has presented. I think the essential Q375 Mr David Jones: Yes, as I say, paradoxically it starting point is the need to build on and reinforce is not the oYcial status of the Welsh language which the 1993 Act, and that is an approach we are in full concerns me from a legal point of view, it is what is agreement with. proposed to be done in connection with the English language, which it seems to me is beyond the Q372 Mr David Jones: Dr George, what is your view competence of the Assembly. That is the point I of this expression “oYcial status” for the Welsh and make and it is a matter I would be grateful if you English languages? Do you understand what that would consider because it is one which does exercise means? me because I am concerned. Dr George: It is something which would need to be Mr David: But it has to be said, and I say it as a defined in the sense that it does not have a fixed legal monoglot English speaker myself. This Legislative meaning at the moment, but we certainly understand Competence Order is about the position of the Welsh that it means the collection of legal protections and language and we want to ensure that it is as statuses which the Welsh language already has. practically best supported as it can be.
Q373 Mr David Jones: You heard the point I made Q376 Mr David Jones: I fully understand that, but to Ms Arch about whether or not legislating for the that is not my concern. Maybe I am a bit of an English language would be ultra vires given the anorak! Being a lawyer, I probably am, but provisions of the Government of Wales Act. What nevertheless it is a matter which concerns me. Can I are your views on that? return to the draft LCO? It includes provisions Dr George: We certainly accept your starting point. which could result in Crown bodies, including The Field that we are talking about is the Welsh ministers of the Crown, potentially falling within the language, so the matter which goes into that Field scope of the Order. How do you consider this would has to relate to the Welsh language, but we do agree improve on the duties placed on Crown bodies under with the Welsh Assembly Government that the existing legislation? matter about treating English and Welsh on an equal Mr David: We think the issue of Crown bodies is an footing is about the Welsh language, it relates to the important consideration. We are quite comfortable Welsh language, and that view is reinforced when with what the Welsh Assembly Government has you look at what existing Welsh language legislation proposed here and we think that negotiations which actually does. The treatment of the two languages on are already taking place, which have taken place, will the basis of equality is what the Welsh Language Act continue and we do not see any particular problem is about, so I think it is clear to us that when that as far as that is concerned. Field was inserted into Schedule 5 for the Welsh language a matter about treating the two languages Q377 Mr David Jones: It seems to me that talk of equally was exactly the kind of thing you would have negotiations at this particular stage of the game is a expected to go in there. bit late, is it not? Mr David: No, because I come back to the very fundamental point that we are talking about a Q374 Mr David Jones: I can understand the equality Legislative Competence Order, we are not talking point fully,but that is not my diYculty.My diYculty, about direct Measures, and I think the Assembly paradoxically, given that we are talking about a Government has given cast iron commitments and Welsh language LCO, is that so far as I can see from granted a full and comprehensive consultation with the Explanatory Memorandum the Welsh Assembly people who will be impacted upon by any specific Government proposed to make legislation Measure. concerning the status of the English language, in other words by declaring it to be an oYcial language, whereas in fact according to the Act the Assembly Q378 Mr David Jones: Can I repeat the point I made has no competence for the English language. Is that earlier that of course one Assembly Government not a concern of yours too? cannot bind its successors. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:05:22 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG4
Ev 56 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
27 April 2009 Mr Wayne David MP, Mr Geth Williams and Dr James George
Mr David: That is true, but we nevertheless accept findings of the consultation. I know that that has the principle that it is correct for the Welsh Assembly now ended, although you have indicated that you Government within certain confines, which are are still receiving the fruits of that consultation. We before us, to develop Welsh language policy as it sees are keen to be speedily but thoroughly producing fit for the people of Wales. our report sometime long before the summer recess and so the sooner we get those findings and also any Q379 Mr David Jones: Your job is to consider the additional information you wish to share with us wider impact of that. then we would be delighted to have them. Mr David: Indeed, but I am confident that the Welsh Mr David: Could I just say, Chairman, thank you Assembly Government is more than capable of very much indeed for your cooperation and of doing that. course the information which I referred to will be passed on to the Committee in full. Could I also say Q380 Hywel Williams: Do you think there is room that we do particularly value the opportunity to for improvement in the sorts of Welsh language express our views on other matters, in particular I services provided by Crown bodies? For example, refer to matter 21 and the issue of what is established there are a number of Crown bodies which I by prerogative instruments. We think it is important understand still do not have a language scheme, so that you will be able to receive the Wales OYce’s would you agree that there is some room for further considered view on that matter in particular. development? Mr David: I think there is room for further Q383 Mr David Jones: Chairman, could I ask if the development, but I think it is also the case that we Minister could expand on that? What is your have seen a great deal of progress in recent times and concern about that? I think just about every government department has Mr David: Thank you, Chairman, we think that is a policy whereby if somebody writes to them in one of the other areas which requires clarification Welsh they will receive a reply in Welsh and I think because we are worried that bodies which are set up that is something which is a matter of government by Royal Charter may again, perhaps inadvertently, policy and will continue to be developed eVectively. consider themselves to be covered by this particular Hywel Williams: Thank you. element here. We think that is worthy of consideration. We can think of a number of Q381 Chairman: Thank you, Minister. Could I organisations such as the British Legion, for thank you for the oral evidence which you have example, the CBI, Girl Guides, Mother’s Union, given us today and commend you in particular on and we realise full well that it is not the intention of the fact that as a Labour minister you have quoted the Welsh Assembly Government to cover these a former Conservative minister in defence of a Plaid bodies, to include them in any way, but nevertheless Cymru minister bringing forward proposals on this might be an inadvertent consequence and we behalf of a Labour/Plaid Welsh Assembly think, once more, it is worthy of discussion and Government! Harmony is breaking out all over! possible clarification. Mr David: It is the first time I have done it. It is Chairman: I am very grateful to you for drawing our probably the last as well! attention to that. I am reluctant to open up another set of discussions around those particular issues. We Q382 Chairman: If you feel there are points which would be very pleased to receive your considered you have not made today, we would, as a views on that and we may well then respond to you Committee, be very pleased to receive them and we for further clarification, if that is required. Thank will, of course, be looking forward to receiving the you very much. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [SO] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 57 Written evidence
Memorandum submitted by the Association of Chief Police OYcers in Wales (ACPO Cymru) Proposed Welsh Language LCO I write on behalf of Association of Chief Police OYcers in Wales (ACPO Cymru) in my capacity as the senior police oYcer with responsibility for police policy on the Welsh language. As such this letter represents the formal view of the whole of the police service in Wales.
ACPO Cymru firmly believes that the National Assembly for Wales should be able to make laws about the Welsh language in Wales. If ever there was a topic which should be formally devolved to the National Assembly then the native language of the country is surely it. We are therefore strongly in favour of this proposed Legislative Competence Order.
Our answers to the specific questions posed by the Committee are as follows:
1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? Yes.
2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? Yes.
3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? Yes. This method gives the National Assembly full local control over Welsh language law applicable to Wales. It is an entirely suitable topic, and is exactly what the LCO power (itself the will of Parliament) was designed to achieve. Indeed it is diYcult to conceive of a more appropriate topic for an LCO than the Welsh language.
4. The extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? There is no doubt in our mind that a revision of Welsh language law is needed to take full account of modern circumstances. The National Assembly is now the UK legislature best placed to determine the modern legal framework for the Welsh language.
5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? ACPO Cymru has no opinion on this question.
6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? ACPO Cymru has no opinion on this question.
7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?). ACPO Cymru has no opinion on this question.
8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? ACPO Cymru does not believe that the proposed LCO creates any need to form or abolish Welsh institutions or structures. A subsequent Measure might do so—but this would of course be a matter for the judgement of the Assembly, which is of course the whole point of the LCO. As a non-devolved service it is perhaps worth restating our strong support for the principle of Welsh self-determination on an issue as directly relevant to Wales as her own language. April 2009 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
Ev 58 Welsh Affairs Committee: Evidence
Memorandum submitted by BT Introduction 1. BT welcomes the opportunity to contribute to the Welsh AVairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny of the proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009. This written submission provides a snapshot of BT’s current position on the proposal. 2. BT is helping Wales to take its place in the global knowledge economy and is equally proud of its record in the field of Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR), playing a leading role on a range of issues, from tackling climate change to helping alleviate social exclusion. For example, we are: — championing the Welsh language—with an award-winning bilingual policy; — supporting its communities—through schemes encouraging digital inclusion; and — promoting competitiveness—by investing millions in the Welsh economy annually. 3. Our commitment to the Welsh language is an essential part of our presence in Wales. In 2004, BT celebrated the tenth anniversary of its Bilingual Code of Practice, which was established as part of our commitment to the diverse nature of Welsh culture. BT’s code of practice states that it is intent on communicating with its customers in an open and helpful manner and on demonstrating genuine care and concern for Wales’ economic and social well being, as well as its cultural and natural environment. The company’s mission statement, therefore, states that it will provide a consistent and reliable bilingual service, and uphold the same standards in Welsh and English wherever practical. 4. In recent years our bilingual policy has been praised by the Welsh Assembly Government and the Welsh Language Board. In 2007 we launched a Welsh Language Service Awareness campaign to highlight BT’s Welsh language services and encourage more Welsh speakers and Welsh language learners to use our services and keep the Welsh language alive. We look forward to increasing the use of the Welsh language in Wales over the coming decade, working with the Welsh Assembly Government and other private, public and voluntary sector partners.
Responses to the specific questions posed by the Committee Question 1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? 5. BT understands why it is logical to transfer primary legislative powers over the Welsh language to the National Assembly but wishes at the same time that more resources in the private, public and voluntary sector were deployed to make a genuine diVerence to Welsh language usage and adoption of increased services. BT believes that any activity on the legislative front should not detract from, or reduce focus and energy on, increasing usage of the language and increasing the skills and confidence of Welsh speakers to use the language day to day, be it in the workplace or in the home environment.
Question 2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? 6. BT has no comment on this question.
Question 3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? 7. Following from our response to Question 1, we believe the Welsh Assembly Government should provide increased funding to encourage the uptake of existing services. One possible initiative might be the creation of language brokers to support the less fluent and those not used to using Welsh outside a home environment. This has worked in community programmes around the use of ICT.
Question 4. The extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? 8. BT has had a voluntary code of practice on the Welsh language for many years. We wholeheartedly support the language and wish to see it flourish and strengthen across the whole of Wales. Within the field of “telecommunications” we are a market leader in providing bilingual, Welsh and English, services. BT does not wish to be included under any future legislation. It believes that continuing with its voluntary code is the best solution. We hope that this element can be reconsidered. 9. We believe the majority of our customers, both English speakers and Welsh speakers, expect BT to support the Welsh language. Our hope is that more customers can be persuaded to use the service. 10. We have been pressing the Welsh Assembly Government and its relevant ministers to concentrate activity not on legislation but on practical programmes that would encourage more use of the language by Welsh speakers and learners. This needs to include proactive marketing of Welsh language services (across all sectors) and support for Welsh speakers in confidence building and skills development. 11. We wish to see the use of the Welsh language encouraged in communities through the existing Mentrau Iaith (local language initiatives) and, as noted previously, possibly the creation within those of language brokers to support the less fluent and those not used to using Welsh outside a home environment. However, there must be commitments to clearly defined outcomes and measurable impacts over a long term Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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period, eg the ten year period between each census, managed through a central agency (possibly managed by the Welsh Language Board) which would implement and capture best practice and support local needs, and whose delivery would be scrutinised by the National Assembly for Wales. 12. BT wishes to ensure therefore that practical steps are taken to promote uptake of existing Welsh language services along with the devolution of powers over the Welsh language contained in this proposed Legislative Competence Order (LCO).
Question 5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? 13. In terms of any practical implementation of a legal requirement on BT our dilemma is that we genuinely do not know what the practical requirements will be. Therefore it is not possible for us to comment on wider implications on BT as a company on a UK wide level and thus by extension the impact it would have on our business within an UK wide context. 14. We have asked for details but do not believe that the process has been fully scoped. We have been told it will be “light touch”. What does that mean? There will have to be some degree of process and that will require some degree of bureaucracy to support it. How much? At present we employ a Welsh Language oYcer who focuses as much as he can on community based projects, eg we are working with the Urdd on a Welsh language child internet safety project. Will he have to spend time at meetings with Welsh Assembly Government oYcials instead? Without knowing the practicalities we cannot estimate any potential costs. 15. We understand that the legislation will cover all companies in the “telecommunications” sector that provide services to the public. This must be in the interest of customers and of fair competition. Clear definitions will be needed for those companies of the services they will be expected to provide. 16. BT believes there must be complete equality between the requirements bestowed upon it, under Matter 20.1 (h, iv.) as “telecommunication services”, and its competitors. Failure to do so would lead to competitive advantage being given to our competitors through legislation by the Welsh Assembly Government. We ask the Committee to secure confirmation on this from the Welsh Assembly Government. 17. As an exemplar of best practice in Welsh language services provision, we believe that our award winning Bilingual Code of Practice1 could be used as a benchmark for the sector.
Question 6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? 18. As with our response to Question 5, it is not possible for us to comment on how it will eVect our organisation in policy fields which are reserved.
Question 7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) 19. The OYce of Government Commerce published a document in 2008 extolling the virtues of ethical procurement. The document, Buy and make a diVerence–How to address social issues in public procurement, illustrates how social issues can be considered at each stage of procurement process. Published on 11 June 2008 the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, Angela Eagle MP, talking at a procurement Solutions conference in London noted: “Innovative approaches and solutions through public procurement should be used to achieve social outcomes and objectives. I want procurers to be looking at imaginative options and to talk with customers and interest groups to understand what the market can provide.”2 20. We believe that providing Welsh language services should be seen as an example of good ethical behaviour when it comes to awarding UK Government and Welsh Assembly Government contracts in Wales.
Question 8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? 21. We have worked harmoniously with the Welsh Language Board for a number of years and value their support and guidance. BT hopes the Board will continue to play a key role in promoting the Welsh Language. Indeed, BT wishes to see an increase in the Board’s resources to promote the use of Welsh Language services across all sectors and to support Welsh language skills development. As stated earlier, emphasis should be given to increasing the uptake of services and competency of Welsh speakers to use the language.
1 http://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/BTUKandWorldwide/BTRegions/Wales/WelshLanguage Policy/Bilingualcodeofpractice.pdf 2 http://www.ogc.gov.uk/About OGC news 8440.asp Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Summary of Main Points 22. BT understands why it is logical to transfer primary legislative powers over the Welsh Language to the Assembly but hopes that scare resources in the public, private and voluntary sectors can be better deployed to make a genuine diVerence to Welsh language usage and adoption. We are concerned that the proposed legislation will not actually address the real issues facing the Welsh language in the 21st Century and may instead concentrate energy and activity on legal process instead of on practical actions. 23. We call on the Welsh Assembly Government to put in place increased funding to encourage the uptake of existing services as well as other practical initiatives prior to considering legislating further. One such practical initiative could be the creation of a programme that would genuinely increase the skills levels of Welsh speakers to provide confidence to those which are fluent in the home environment to be confident of using the language in the workplace. 24. BT does not wish to be required under law to provide Welsh Language services. It wishes to continue to do so voluntarily. It requests that this element of any proposed measure be revisited and reconsidered. 25. BT calls for complete equality between the requirements it may have under Matter 20.1 (h, iv.) as “telecommunication services”, and those required of its competitors. Failure to do so would lead to competitive advantage being given to competitors through legislation by the Welsh Assembly Government. We ask the Committee to secure confirmation on this from the Welsh Assembly Government. 26. BT, as an exemplar of best practice in Welsh language services provision, calls for any future requirements to take BT’s award winning Bilingual Code of Practice3 as a benchmark for the sector. 27. BT concurs with the comment of the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, Angela Eagle MP, that: “Innovative approaches and solutions through public procurement should be used to achieve social outcomes and objectives.” BT believes that in Wales, the Welsh language should be seen as one of these factors. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by CBI Wales Introduction 1. This paper is the response of the membership of CBI Wales to the consultation on the Welsh Language Legislative Competency Order (LCO). 2. The CBI is the UK’s foremost business representative body dealing principally with cross-sector issues, which aVect the business environment in which all companies operate. The CBI’s strength lies in its breadth of membership, which includes companies of every size, including over 200 trade associations and academic institutions, and from all sectors of the economy—manufacturing, construction, retailing, financial services, e-commerce, leisure, transport and so on. The CBI represents companies employing about 50% of the private sector workforce in Wales. 3. Business in Wales welcomes the opportunity to take part in this consultation on the Welsh Language LCO. We hope the considered views of industry in Wales will help craft a final LCO that is better positioned to increase the use of the Welsh language. 4. Due to the lack of detailed proposals in the LCO on the exact Welsh language duties certain companies will be compelled to perform, a more detailed reaction by industry on the implications of the legislation will take place at Measure stage.
Executive Summary 5. The LCO contains a number of proposals aVecting business: — The intention to transfer specific powers over the Welsh language to the Assembly: We believe this is appropriate. It seems logical for the Welsh Assembly to have legal responsibility for the Welsh language. — The intention to confirm oYcial status for both English and Welsh languages in Wales: At this stage in the legislative process, we are unclear what the exact implications of this clause will be on the private sector in Wales. — Enable the Assembly to legislate to protect, via a future Measure, the freedom of individuals to speak Welsh with each other: We are unclear what the impact of this proposal will be in the private sector. Employers and employees must act reasonably, with the understanding that core company procedures in the majority of companies take place in English. — Compelling certain private sector companies (largely the former privatised utilities) to deliver Welsh language services: We do not support these proposals. We believe a voluntary demand-led approach will achieve more for the Welsh language. If the Assembly still wishes to pursue the compulsion route aVected companies should be expected to treat the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality as far as is reasonable and practicable.
3 http://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/BTUKandWorldwide/BTRegions/Wales/WelshLanguage Policy/Bilingualcodeofpractice.pdf Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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— To require persons providing services to the public receiving £200,000 or more in a financial year to be required to deliver some Welsh language services: This clause seems appropriate if it is intended to cover such public sector organisations as the Wales Millennium Centre. However as worded it has the potential to cover a wide variety of companies. We recommend it is amended to remove such confusion. 6. CBI member companies operate throughout many parts of Wales—rural and urban, traditional Welsh- speaking areas and industrial anglicised areas. Members generally have a very positive attitude towards the language and a desire to see it extended in business where there is a demand from employees and customers. Many companies in Wales have in diVerent ways, increasingly built the Welsh language into their marketing and customer relations. Many businesses now provide services through the medium of Welsh—even though there is no legal requirement to do so. Utility bills are available in English and Welsh, some banks provide a Welsh language service, shops such as Tesco and Marks & Spencer provide signage in Welsh and English and Microsoft has produced a Welsh language version of their key software platform—Windows. 7. To date, many companies have had a constructive relationship with the Welsh Language Board, which has worked eVectively with business to strengthen use of the language on a voluntary, demand-led basis underpinned by its private sector strategy. Business continues to support the goals of the Welsh Assembly Government’s National Action Plan for a Bilingual Wales, Iaith Pawb, for a truly bilingual Wales based on support and encouragement for the Welsh language. It is these conditions and approaches that have unquestionably helped increase the favourable approach of the private sector towards the Welsh language. 8. CBI members therefore are clear that they support the adoption and development of the Welsh language in the private sector when it is done on a voluntary basis. The technical, capacity, administration and management costs of complying with legislation in the absence of suYcient demand/financial return are something businesses in Wales should not be required to do at this time. 9. The key barrier to the voluntary extention of Welsh services in the private sector is the low level of usage. We would much prefer the Welsh Assembly Government to use its significant resources to create the business case for using Welsh. This includes the use of Welsh by consumers, giving the skills and training to individuals to have the confidence to use the Welsh language in a formal setting. If this were to be done eVectively additional usage would enable more businesses to provide Welsh language services and encourage the extension of current provision by a greater number of companies than currently targeted by this LCO.
The Economy 10. The CBI believes that a strong and thriving private sector is key to the future of Wales, and that a successful economy is necessary to underpin the health, education and social justice aspirations expressed by the Assembly Government. 11. The Welsh market for most businesses is relatively small (population of less than 3m) and not particularly aZuent (relative GDP per head is low). Companies which have the aspiration to grow therefore have to address markets outside Wales—in the UK and internationally—as well as at home. Companies therefore will compete vigorously with competitors based in other parts of the UK and overseas on a daily basis. Against this background the nature of the business environment in which the business is based is critical. 12. The current economic backdrop to this debate should not be ignored. At the time of the consultation, Wales is in recession. This is a challenging period for all private sector employees in Wales. Companies are implementing eYciencies and are looking to new markets to sell their goods or services. The Welsh Industrial Trends Survey of manufacturing activity the last quarter of 2008 revealed output volumes falling more sharply than Welsh manufacturers had expected—reaching the fastest rate of decline since January 1999. Unemployment as a result is continuing to rise while new employment opportunities shrink. At such a time governments inevitably need to ensure the evidence-base upon which all policy decisions are taken reflects current economic realities and due consideration is given to decisions that will directly impact the private sector.
Process 13. The definition of what is actually meant by Welsh language “services” remains unknown at this stage in the legislative process, only to be revealed at the Measure stage. This lack of certainty means we do not know what actions companies aVected will need to take to comply with the legislation. As a result, it is diYcult to accurately state the impact/cost this new statutory requirement will have. The eVect of this on companies is a prolonged period of uncertainty which is not ideal given current market conditions. It would benefit everyone if the Welsh Assembly Government were to discuss with business what compliance with the legislation would look like as soon as possible. 14. We strongly hope that all parties involved handle the LCO, Measure and implementation stages of these proposals in such a way that the continued goodwill and engagement on the Welsh language of those companies outside the scope of this LCO is preserved. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Demand-led 15. We recognise that a consequence of greater choice for the Welsh consumer is a more complex network of public services. Private companies now provide a range of formerly public services and some markets— such as telecommunications—have diversified with new technologies allowing for many new services and new ways of communicating with a service provider. However, we believe the demand-led, voluntary approach of the private sector working in partnership with the Welsh Language Board, consumer groups and the Welsh Assembly Government has enabled the growth of the Welsh language in these areas.
16. Business attitudes to the Welsh language are far more positive today than they have been in the past based on this approach. That 60% of private sector employers in Wales now support the use of Welsh at work is evidence of this.4 More needs to be done but this is illustrative of the progress that has been made.
17. Former nationalised utilities have by-and-large needed no legal compulsion to make Welsh language services available to their customers. Companies such as BT have responded excellently, embracing a voluntary Welsh language scheme. BT have invested significantly—establishing a range of Welsh language services including a Welsh Language Bureau comprising a dedicated customer service centre for customers handling billing, sales and repairs; a dedicated customer service number for businesses; a 24 hour Welsh language directory enquiries; Welsh language content in The Phone Book and all phoneboxes.
18. The motivation for the provision of private sector Welsh language services vary. Some respond to customer requests, others to staV but the majority of companies in our experience use the Welsh language due to a commitment to Wales and to their Welsh consumers. The investment in such services does not secure a return and would not pass the usually rigorous analysis of mainstream company expenditure. The lack of Welsh language services in other companies is almost always down to the lack of consumer demand.
19. Compelling certain companies to provide Welsh language services risks losing goodwill within the private sector towards the language. It changes the perception of the language from a positive statement of a commitment to Wales to a compliance issue, the costs of which tend to be managed and minimised.
20. The Welsh Assembly Government has suggested that the implementation of such services on the companies aVected could be diVerent in and between sectors and vary in diVerent parts of Wales. This would enable companies to proportionately provide levels of Welsh language public services, according to their locality. We believe such an approach can work under a voluntary system. However, it is not feasible to propose diVerent statutory duties on companies competing to provide the same services. Under a statutory scheme, competition law would not allow such a bespoke approach. A statutory code must provide a level playing field between companies within aVected sectors.
21. The need to ensure a level playing field will prove diYcult in many sectors, especially in the fragmented markets such as telecoms with many diVerent delivery channels. Failure to adequately capture all competitors in a market will put Welsh based companies at a disadvantage and is likely to result in legal challenges.
22. Furthermore, there are a growing number of niche energy suppliers which provide utilities to small groups of consumers. The choice of a “green energy” utility supplier for example is available in Wales. We would not want to see the unintended result of the Welsh language becoming a de facto barrier to these smaller utility companies operating in Wales.
23. We welcome the Welsh Language Board’s “Investing in Welsh” kite mark scheme. This voluntary accreditation approach, with the appropriate marketing, has the potential to gain wider private sector support than the group of sectors the LCO singles out for legislation. Twinned with a publicity campaign to increase consumer demand and work to understand why Welsh speakers are reluctant to use the Welsh language in oYcial capacities, this approach has the potential for to deliver the increased use of the language across the private sector.
24. The scheme enables the promotion of existing Welsh language services and it helps those currently not providing a service to make a positive start. The scheme captures which services many companies in Wales currently provide and it does so in a reasonable and balanced way. For example it requires the equal treatment of English and Welsh—“so far as is reasonable and practicable;” that new permanent signs are bilingual, that all staV respond politely to Welsh language enquiries; the use of the “investing in Welsh” mark; the recognition of the usefulness of speaking in Welsh when working in Wales and the development and promotion of the company’s Welsh language policy. Such an approach, we believe, is best for businesses in Wales and best for the Welsh language.
4 2004–06 Welsh Language Use Survey, p30, Welsh Language Board. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Analysis of the Legislative Competency Order As previously stated, we do not believe that the route of legislative compulsion of the private sector is the right one. However, if the Welsh Assembly Government pursues this route we have some detailed observations on the draft LCO. 25. We support many of the intentions that would enable the introduction of the Welsh Language LCO. We, like the Welsh Assembly, wish to sustain Welsh as a living language and to increase the number of public services available in Welsh. We, like the Welsh Assembly,support the use of the Welsh language in the private sector and believe that the use of the language has cultural and commercial advantages.
Transfer of power to Welsh Assembly 26. We believe the Assembly is the logical place for the powers over the Welsh language to reside therefore we support the proposal to transfer specific power over the Welsh language from Westminster to the Assembly so that that the Welsh language becomes the Assembly’s legal responsibility.
Linguistic rights 27. We note the proposal in the LCO would enable the Assembly to legislate to protect (through a future Measure) the freedom of individuals to speak Welsh to each other. We are unclear what the impact of this proposal will be in the private sector, above and beyond that currently provided by the 1993 Welsh Language Act. Employers and employees must act reasonably, and we support the rights of employees to speak Welsh to each other in the workplace. 28. While most employers act reasonably in this regard, respecting the choice of individual workers to communicate in their own language where appropriate, it is important to recognise that the language of the workplace for the vast majority of employers is English and the great majority of employees in Wales do not speak Welsh. It is reasonable therefore to require business discussions involving non-Welsh speakers to be conducted in English. This is an area where common sense must be allowed to break out.
Basis of equality 29. As there is no definition of “basis of equality” it is not clear what compliance will mean in practice. Looking at the public sector, it appears to impose very high requirements. We believe this needs amending to require companies to implement services that are reasonable and practicable—which is what the Welsh Language Board currently requires in its voluntary code. 30. The treatment of both languages on the basis of equality comes from the 1993 Welsh Language Act and is currently required of public bodies. In 2006 the Welsh Language Board stated that this requirement has not been implemented eVectively in the public sector with “schemes unevenly and partially implemented, and it is not clear to the public what they can expect to receive in terms of Welsh language services.”5 It is a cause for concern if this is the result in the public sector—with its investment of significant time and money in the creation of such systems within organisations that solely operate in Wales and have been dealing with the Welsh language for many years prior to the 1993 Act. 31. It is therefore the extent of the provision of the services and the uncertainty over the breadth and depth of the duties which we question. As a result, we suggest an amendment. 3(2) currently reads: “promoting the use of the Welsh language; and the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality,“ We believe this statement should be amended to read “promoting the use of the Welsh language; and the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality as far as is reasonable and practicable”. We suggest this is inserted as a new clause after 3(2) (g) and before 3(2) (h). 32. The source for this amendment is from the Welsh Language Board’s own interpretation of equality between Welsh and English in the workplace. The board’s “Investing in Welsh Scheme” is aimed at enabling any private sector company to provide a range of customer services. The principles of reasonableness and practicality in the promoting/facilitating of the language are central to its scheme and would allow businesses to implement the requirement in a smarter and more eVective manner.
Public services 33. We note that in clauses 3(2) (a) to (e) it states that the LCO will impose a duty on persons “providing services to the public.” The phrase is found in the 1993 Act but was only ever applied to public bodies. We believe the clause intends to cover private companies providing public services and not private companies providing “services to the public.” 34. As the clause currently stands it has the potential to be misunderstood and there is a danger of the private sector being required to deliver a far greater level of their services bilingually than the Welsh Assembly Government intends, if the intention is to implement the spirit of the 1993 Act.
5 The Legislative Position of the Welsh Language, 2006, p5. Welsh Language Board. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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35. We prefer the term—found in the 1993 Act—of “functions of a public nature” and would like this phrase to replace “providing services to the public” in the LCO. This term is more accurate and focuses on delivering an original intention of the LCO—to update Welsh language service provision to match the more complex modern-day delivery of public services.
Telecommunications 36. The telecommunications sector has changed beyond recognition since the 1993 Act. Since the privatisation of BT in 1984 competition has developed strongly. This fast changing market now has over 170 fixed telecommunications providers, around 10 mobile operators, over 60 mobile service providers and around 700 internet service providers. 37. Historically the market has been driven by fixed line telephony. However, new wave services such as broadband and mobile utilisation has revolutionised the market and delivered new products and services to the consumer including mobile broadband, 3G and VoIP (voice over internet) options. As this has taken place new suppliers have entered the market. We now see high street supermarkets active within the mobile phone market and as a result, both the number of services, their method of delivery, the technology used and the business location are more varied now than ever before. 38. We are unsure exactly what companies/activities the Welsh Assembly Government intends to cover by including “telecommunications services” under the auspices of the LCO. At its heart, telecommunication is the assisted transmission of signals over a distance for the purpose of communication. If such a definition were adopted a very wide range of products and services provided to the public by the private sector would be included in the LCO. Clarification is urgently needed in this area. 39. UK consumers spend more annually on mobile phones than they do via landlines. The use of mobile broadband, PDAs and 3G networks means the LCO has potentially serious implications for the telecommunications industry—to what extent remains uncertain. Is texting and email including in the LCO? If so, what does that mean? Does it mean only bilingual phones will be permitted to be sold in Wales? Does it mean that mobile devices that use public WIFI to send messages (like Apple’s IPod Touch) will be covered? If so, what does compliance with the legislation look like for these industries? The Welsh Assembly Government must engage with the private sector to discuss these issues as soon as possible and not wait until the LCO process has completed. It must also be very clear that it will be able to enforce compliance across such a varied sector and preferably without reducing the level of competition in the market to the detriment of Welsh consumers.
£200,000k or more in a financial year 40. We note the provision within the LCO to require “persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year” to deliver Welsh language services. This clause seems appropriate if it is intended to cover such public sector organisations as the Wales Millennium Centre. However as worded it has the potential to cover a wide variety of companies. We recommend it is amended to remove such confusion in the following ways: — We suggest that the clause is amended to read “each” financial year and not “in a” financial year. This amendment will target more precisely a group of companies that is continuing to rely on the Welsh Assembly Government for public funding each year. — As mentioned above, we would like the LCO amended so that “services to the public” is changed to “providing services of a public nature.” This amendment is likely to better target those services that were previously carried out by the public sector. The evidence by the Heritage Minister that as drafted this clause could apply to companies participating in the Assembly’s ProAct scheme is hardly helpful.
Duties 41. As previously mentioned, we remain concerned over the Welsh Assembly Government’s failure to define exactly what duties aVected companies will be required to deliver in order to comply with the legislation. However, it should be made clear that there remain a number of barriers to the prompt introduction of certain services, should they be required by a Measure. 42. There are a number of capacity issues both within the private sector and public sector to promptly respond to the request to deliver Welsh language services. The availability of suitably qualified staV is often a barrier to certain companies extending the provision of Welsh language services. There will be lead times for Welsh language training to a conversational standard. Achieving the internationally recognised standard for translation services is not a quick process, which will require even longer if a technical vocabulary is required. There also remain significant technological barriers for the implementation of some aspects of company activity—as identified by the Welsh Language Board strategy on information technology.6 All this will require significant additional resource from the public and private sectors to enable the appropriate structures to be put in place.
6 Information Technology and the Welsh Language: a strategy document. Welsh Language Board. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Conclusion 43. Business in Wales remains to be convinced that at the end of the process the appreciation and vitality of the Welsh language will have been improved more so than the current voluntary approach. If the private sector begins to see the Welsh language in terms of compliance and regulatory requirement then we will know the LCO will have failed. March 2009
Supplementary memorandum submitted by CBI Wales — An initial impact assessment indicates implementation costs of £1.5 million with ongoing annual costs of £1 million. — As a highly regulated utility company which has undergone a challenging five-year Price Review, the costs of implementation would be extreme. Customers would ultimately be faced with increased costs. — In the past three years (2006–09) demand for Welsh language facilities in day-to-day operations has been identified as follows: — More than 200,000 telephone calls annually. In three years and out of 600,000 calls—only four requests to converse in the Welsh language have been received. — 152,000 pieces of written correspondence are generated annually involving approximately 250,000 pages of documentation. — Two requests to correspond in the Welsh language have been received in three years. — The Welsh Language Board (Information Technology and the Welsh Language: A Strategy Document) has identified practical diYculties in implementing Welsh language into IT. The scope and feasibility of incorporating the Welsh language into the company’s IT systems and processes would be far-reaching and would, even if specialist industry applications were available in Welsh (which they are not), require significant lead times and bring major additional cost implications. April 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Celtic League The Celtic League has branches in the six Celtic Countries of north western Europe (Brittany, Cornwall, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales). It works to promote cooperation between these countries and campaigns on a broad range of political, cultural and environmental matters. It targets human rights abuse and monitors all military activity within these areas — We believe that the Welsh language is the language of Wales and all legislation related to it should be made by the Welsh Assembly Government. Legislation relating to the Welsh language is in the “spirit and scope of devolution”, as can be seen in terms of Field 20 in Schedule 5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Therefore we see no reason why the Welsh Assembly Government should not have competence over all legislation relating to the Welsh language. — A broad political spectrum of support exists in the Welsh Assembly Government and throughout Wales for full legislative powers relating to the Welsh language to be transferred to Wales. Moreover, under the terms of the “One Wales” agreement (2007), the Welsh Assembly Government committed itself to obtaining primary legislative powers related to the Welsh language. Therefore the Welsh Assembly Government has a duty to the people of Wales to ensure that the Welsh and English languages are treated equally. — The people of Wales should have the right to freedom of expression in the Welsh language in the work place. All employees should be allowed to communicate through Welsh to their fellow staV members or to customers, should the language be mutually chosen. There should be clear legislation relating to this issue, without biase or prejudice. In relation to this point, we believe that the scope of the LCO should in fact be extended to include a full list of private and public companies, so that fair and equal access to the Welsh language in all spheres of life is attained. (This should also include the use of Welsh throughout the judicial process, even though we are aware that criminal justice is not a devolved matter). — A Commissioner for the Welsh language needs to be created who is able to act as a champion for the Welsh language and its users, so that they can confidently use the language under the terms of any legislation that is passed. — The Welsh Language Act 1993 is out dated and new legislation is desperately needed in Wales. Obviously the best body qualified to pass such legislation is the Welsh Assembly Government. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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We urge you to respect the linguistic heritage of the people of Wales and to ensure in your report that the LCO is not only fully upheld, but is in fact strengthened. The Celtic League see the LCO as an opportunity for the UK Government to show their support to the Welsh Assembly Government, under the devolved settlement, by allowing them to undertake their duty to the people of Wales to create a truly bilingual society that is equal and fair for all. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Cered Cered is the Welsh Language Initiative for the County of Ceredigion. The main objectives of the initiative are to promote the Welsh language, raise awareness of the benefits of the Welsh language, increase the confidence and proficiency of Welsh speakers, facilitate opportunities to use the Welsh language, and provide information and advice in regards to the use of the Welsh language for the people of Ceredigion. The following are general comments on the proposed Welsh language LCO: Welsh is unique to Wales. Therefore the Welsh Assembly Government is the appropriate place to legislate on matters relating to the Welsh Language. The understanding and expertise regarding the language exists within the Welsh Assembly Government. It should therefore have the capacity to legislate for bilingual services for the people of Wales. The responsibility for ensuring the rights of the people of Wales to use the Welsh language should reside with the Welsh Assembly Government and the wording of the Order should reflect this. We are supportive of the principle that the Welsh Assembly have the legislative competence to promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language, treat the Welsh and English languages equally, and ensure people have the freedom to use the Welsh language. The Order is a natural development on the role of the Welsh Language Board and the principles of the Welsh Language Act 1993. However the Order should further expand on the principles of the Act. The scope of sectors included in the Order, as being persons that duties could be imposed upon to provide a specific bilingual service, is to be welcomed. However the Order is too restricted and should include persons that provide banking and insurance services, transport of every kind, recreational and sports facilities, voluntary services, partnerships that deliver public services, and all other persons that provide a service to the public. For example bus services should be included in addition to rail services in order to ensure consistency of service. More explanation needs to be given in regards to the £200,000, or more, threshold for persons providing a service to the public. More consideration needs to be given to ensuring the continuation and consistency of services from one financial year to the next. In addition to ensuring the freedom of the citizens of Wales the Order should also provide a means to ensure the rights of the people to use the Welsh language. The rights of the people of Wales to use the Welsh language as an active language in the workplace and in every day life are extremely important. Cered are supportive of the content of the “Cymru’n Un” document to ensure the rights of Welsh speakers, giving oYcial status to the Welsh language and creating a language commissioner. It is essential that the objectives of this document are realised and have a far reaching eVect in order to protect the rights of the individual. This Order will go some way to making this a reality. The following are the requested comments:
1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? Yes.
2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? Yes.
3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? Yes. The LCO will allow Ministers from the Welsh Assembly Government, who are involved with the everyday governance of Wales to legislate on the Welsh language. The Welsh Assembly is the appropriate place for controlling laws with regard to Welsh language issues as the understanding and expertise regarding the language exists within the Welsh Assembly Government. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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4. The extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? There have been calls for a new Welsh Language Act for over 20 years due to gaps in the 1993 Welsh Language Act. The 2001 census shows that the number of Welsh speakers are rising due to Welsh medium education, which leads to greater demands for services across all sectors. Many research papers point to the need for further legislation across Wales as the primary way to improve provision of Welsh language services.
5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? Minimal and insignificant.
6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? No impact to our knowledge.
7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) Not to our knowledge.
8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? Not to our knowledge.
Memorandum submitted by The Chartered Institute of Marketing Wales Board The Chartered Institute of Marketing Wales Board would like to submit evidence to the Welsh AVairs Committee. Please note that this is the view of The Wales Board and not necessarily the view of The Chartered Institute of Marketing, which is a UK body with international membership and its headquarters in England. The Wales Board would welcome the LCO insofar as the Board support the principle that decisions on the Welsh Language should be made locally by the National Assembly for Wales. As a marketing principle they support getting close to “the customer” and understanding the needs of “the customer”. The emphasis must be on relationship marketing—significant change cannot be achieved unless the proponents build a long-term, mutually trusting relationship with “the customer”. The National Assembly, rather than Westminster, is best placed to manage that relationship with Welsh citizens and businesses on this admittedly controversial topic. In principle we support the voluntary promotion of the Welsh language and support eVorts by the Welsh Language Board to promote the use of Welsh in business. We would argue that business, much more than governments or NGOs, can be in the driving seat of cultural change. CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) should be promoted as a CSO (Corporate Social Opportunity). The Chartered Institute of Marketing encourages companies to engage with the principles of the Triple Bottom Line (economic, social and environmental) as a practical method for companies to become sustainable without negatively impacting on their financial bottom line. The Triple Bottom Line doesn’t ask companies to commit altruistically to social initiatives that could endanger growth and weaken business focus. Instead it asks companies to balance the conflicting interests of stakeholders without risking the financial bottom line. The Triple Bottom Line therefore addresses the wider issues of building strong communities and a strong sustainable economy. Nevertheless we also recognise that purely voluntary schemes do not always have the impact desired within the timescale needed. For example government has found it necessary to introduce a raft of legislation which impacts on social factors and which also have huge impacts on business, for example disability legislation and equal opportunity legislation. We cannot therefore rule out entirely the need for legislation in this area but that should not be the first choice. Social marketing techniques are powerful and indeed the Institute has just published a paper (Less smoke, more fire: The benefits and impacts of social marketing) which argues that commercial marketers have much to learn from social marketers. We believe that social marketing can be a powerful change agent which may negate the need for legislation. The decision should lie as close as possible to “the customer” and hence with the National Assembly. February 2009 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Memorandum submitted by Consumer Focus Wales Consumer Focus Wales was created on 1 October 2008 from the Welsh Consumer Council (WCC), Energywatch and Postwatch. We attach for Members’ consideration our written evidence which was submitted to the Welsh Assembly Government on March 20 2009.
Consumer Focus Wales Submission to the Consultation on the National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence)(Welsh Language)Order 2009 1. Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to respond to the consultation on the National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009. As the 1996 Welsh Consumer Council publication states, language is a consumer issue and the consumer voice has long been missing from the debate.7 2. In line with the Welsh Assembly Government, and indeed our own, principles of citizen centred public services, we strongly believe that the user should be at the heart of the service.8 This means legislation shaped from the user or consumer perspective and based on citizen needs and experiences. We support the notion that the National Assembly for Wales is best placed to legislate on the matter of the Welsh Language and best placed to reflect the needs of consumers in Wales. 3. However, we feel more research is needed to determine what consumers want and need in respect of Welsh Language provision so that the National Assembly for Wales can truly deliver against these principles. 4. In order to achieve this, further consultation is needed with service users on what services should be included within the Matter, as well as the extent to which Welsh Language provision should be made available for those sectors or services. Presently,we do not feel confident that the LCO includes an exhaustive list of key services9 and would like to see more work done with consumers as to what they feel is a key public facing service. This might include, for example, banks, supermarkets or public transport. We are not saying there should be legislation in these areas, merely that consumers should be asked about all aspects of their daily lives. 5. We would also like assurance that the level of Welsh Language services within the sectors specified in the Matter is proportionate. Provision needs to be balanced against consumer needs and priorities. We would urge you to ensure that Welsh speakers are not disadvantaged due to the omission of a particular sector or sectors from the Matter. 6. The forthcoming LCO provides an opportunity for Wales to legislate on the Welsh Language in a way that is truly responsive to the needs of people in Wales. Legislation to date has taken a top down approach, looking at what is most convenient to providers rather than what is essential to users. The challenge now is to ensure the provisions made under the Matter are a true reflection of what consumers want. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Alistair Cook I read on the BBC News website that Wayne David commented that he had not received many responses Wales OYce consultation exercise regarding the Welsh Language LCO. I found this bizarre as it’s the first time that I’ve come across any information regarding the consultation. I am not sure where it was advertised but I feel I keep up to date on most current aVairs. I’ve recently been on the All Wales Convention website and interacted on their forum, for example. If the WASC or Wales OYce wanted greater participation then there should have been a greater awareness campaign about it, such as through BBC Wales Today and the like. This leads me to a very important concern and that is that the current media in Wales is rudimentary in its reporting of Welsh politics, particularly of what decisions are being made at the Assembly and also, of the WASC. It’s hardly surprising that there is lower political awareness in Wales than the rest of the UK with such a poor media record. I felt that I should write to you to express this and also add to the responses the consultation has received. I am not sure how to go about submitting my comments to it or whether now it is closed (it wouldn’t be surprising given that it\’s now got some publicity…). I googled the committee and it came up with publications and then I looked through the HoP website but couldn’t figure out where the call for public comments section was on the website. The committee website isn’t easy to use, especially when trying to find information about submitting comments, etc. As a result, I decided to write to you as someone who would know how to approach this, or simply pass on my comments, as Chair of the WASC. In general terms, I believe that the Welsh language LCO would place the necessary powers with the Welsh Assembly as the appropriate venue for policy-making decisions on the Welsh Language. While Welsh language acts have been passed by Parliament, I do not believe that there is suYcient evolution of these acts to reflect the ongoing development of the Welsh language (I feel I should point out that I am an English speaker and do not speak Welsh). As the appropriate democratic venue for the Welsh language, the
7 “Welsh as a Consumer Issue” Welsh Consumer Council (1996). 8 “Putting the Citizen Centre Stage” Welsh Consumer Council (2006). 9 As referred to in paragraph 40 of the Explanatory Memorandum to the LCO. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Assembly is well placed to debate and formulate policy on the Welsh language. I do not see the need for Parliament to place restrictions or caps on this power to make decisions regarding the Welsh language. I believe this simply clouds the issue for the voters and makes it confusing. If there are caps on these powers then, as a voter, I am not entirely sure who has the power for, say, introducing legislation regarding the Welsh language on the private sector for companies with a turnover of 200,000 pounds a year or less. The Assembly should have the power to decide this limit itself. It appears that the current negotiations are more a battle over power or particular policy than they are over developing a sound and responsive policy-making process. I feel that, at present, the WASC in part at least, feels that the Assembly is somehow incapable of making policy. Otherwise why would they place restrictions on this LCO like this? The Welsh Assembly is a directly elected legislature and so should be ultimately responsible to the voters. If the WAG makes a rubbish decision about the Welsh language then they will be penalised at the election. I don’t think that the appropriate venue is at Parliament because there has not been a history of significant time given to debating the Welsh language. Indeed, it does not seem an appropriate venue because the vast majority of MPs are not from Welsh constituencies. Again, the WASC does not have a committee made up entirely of Welsh constituency MPs. It may make sense to MPs but to me it’s hard to understand why an English/Scottish constituency MP would sit on the WASC, and be that interested in scrutinising policy aVecting Wales. The voters in Wales can’t even vote them out of this role, either directly oV the committee, or indirectly at the election because they represent constituencies outside Wales. I feel it is Wales’ “West Lothian Question” or Torfaen Question (it was Murphy who was Welsh secretary when the Govt of Wales Act 2006 was passed). As for the concerns raised from the Business community about the Welsh Language LCO, their comments seem misplaced. They should be lobbying AMs about the shape of the legislation and not the committee determining who should hold the power. The current debate shouldn’t be about what the policy is, it should be about which venue is most appropriate to make policy.
In sum, I have two main points specifically about the Welsh Language LCO:
(1) Welsh Assembly is best venue for policy-making and decision-making regarding the Welsh language; and
(2) the more caps placed on the powers transferred to the Assembly, the murkier the water is for the voters. In other words, the more restrictions placed on the LCO the harder it is for us, the voter, to understand who has power to change the law in response to ongoing social, economic, cultural, political developments regarding the Welsh language.
I feel that the ongoing debate about the Welsh Language LCO is turning from a decision over the transfer of power into a Welsh Language policy debate, which is not what it should be. April 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Association of Schools in favour of Welsh-medium Education (CYDAG) We present CYDAG’s evidence, while emphasising that we see this LCO as only one step towards the process of linguistic planning in our own country. By way of an introduction, we refer to the Richard report, as it contains the basis of this current process. The Richard Commission’s findings empower the feeling of Welsh nationhood in the section on the historic and international context (2004 19–20). There are some clear themes: first, the inevitable evolution in devolving powers, which is demonstrated not only in ideas but in terms of the words that are used, which are full of messages regarding movement/development: “momentum” (which is used four times), “expectations”, “increasing”, “direction of travel”, “added a new democratic dynamic”. Secondly, it refers to the Welsh tradition of promoting change from the bottom up, influencing the micro and, to an extent, the meso. Thirdly, in the second chapter, warmth is expressed towards a nation that was oppressed (centuries ago), and there is a genuine attempt to see the future of Wales in a new, wider context, namely the theatre of the European Union.
1. Should the National Assembly for Wales be able to make laws on the promotion and use of the Welsh language? The Assembly is now the only appropriate body to do this.
2. Should the National Assembly for Wales be able to make laws about which services the public should be able to receive bilingually? CYDAG believes that the National Assembly has the right to legislate on the Welsh language. It is therefore reasonable that the Assembly, following wide consultation, should outline which services the public should receive bilingually. As is outlined in the Welsh Assembly Government’s Explanatory Memorandum, the Government is investing in “a programme of action to deliver eYcient, eVective, citizen centred public services” (p.4). If that is the case, every public service, no matter which sector the provider is in, should be included in the Order. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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3. Should the National Assembly for Wales be able to make laws on the freedom of persons to use the Welsh language with each other? Yes. Many people do not realise that we do not have fairly basic linguistic rights. We do not believe that a law will save the language, but it is extremely important that we have one to maintain and strengthen linguistic equality (let alone educational provision and learning and teaching materials).
4. What are your views on the general principle that legislative competence in the area identified in Matters 20.1 and 20.2 be conferred on the Assembly? ie: Matter 20.1: Promoting or facilitating the use of the Welsh language; and the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality; Matter 20.2: Provision about or in connection with the freedom of persons wishing to use the Welsh language to do so with one another (including any limitations on it). This raises the argument regarding the rights of the individual and groups. We agree with the argument that the individual has the right to speak an indigenous language (or languages), the right to learn the language, and to use it in formal education and in his or her day-to-day life. As this right is inherent to the individual, some thinkers such as Skutnabb-Kangas and Phillipson argue that the right continues wherever you live. That is, it raises the question regarding territory and personality. This appears to be an extremely liberal, and impractical, viewpoint. Practising this could be counter-productive in some linguistic situations. For example, immigrants to Wales from England or another country would have the right to receive all their education (or nearly all of it) in their indigenous language. In terms of the National Curriculum and the Welsh language, it would be interesting in terms of international law to argue against making it compulsory to teach Welsh: what would be the right of the individual? What right does a Welsh person who moves to England have to receive his or her education through the medium of Welsh? It is likely that it would be argued that that would be unreasonable and impractical. And that is when you find yourself in a vicious and pragmatic circle, which perhaps explains why there is not much provision for immigrants or asylum seekers in their first languages in Wales. The continuation of a language from generation to generation is an essential part of the rights of the individual. Consideration of the rights of the group means collaboration between individuals, be they peoples or the population of a country, who share the language and the culture of the individuals.
5. The Explanatory Memorandum states that Matter 20.1 would echo and build on the principles that underpin the Welsh Language Act 1993 and would allow the Assembly to legislate on the range of functions carried out at present, by the Welsh Language Board, and to build on these functions. Do you agree that it will allow the Assembly to do this? If not, how should it be amended? We agree. The 1993 Act is a very practical and pragmatic document: it defines functions, without stating that the Welsh and English languages, de jure,areoYcial languages in Wales. It is another issue that we have no problem with accepting that the two languages are equal de facto.
6. What are your views on the scope of the proposed Order with respect to the categories of persons on whom it would allow the Assembly to impose duties to provide particular services bilingually to the public eg is it too narrowly or broadly drawn (Matter 20.1 (a)—(i))? Please indicate clearly to which sub-section(s) your comments relate ie (a)—(i) and any particular sub-sub-sections under (h). We believe that the greatest need is to train workers to speak and respond to the public in Welsh. This is compatible with the Welsh tradition of steady progress with a pragmatic approach.
7. Is the definition used for “public authorities” for this Matter appropriate (“each public authority within the meaning of section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998”)? If not, what definition should be used and why? It appears that the definition is appropriate, although it is necessary for the Assembly to ensure more clarity in terms of the definition for citizens when it comes to forming a measure.
8. Matter 20.1 would allow duties to be imposed on “telecommunications services” and “postal services and post oYces” (Matter 20.1 sub-section (h)(iii) and (h)(iv)). Are the definitions used for “postal services”, “telecommunication services” under the “Interpretation of this field” section in the proposed Order necessary and appropriate? If not, how should they be re-drafted and why? To ensure clarity, it is essential that the definitions for telecommunication services and postal services (especially given the steps taken to privatise part of this service) remain as they are in order to ensure continuity when it comes to forming the measure.
9. In relation to Matter 20.1 sub-section (e)—persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year”, and includes “moneys made available directly or indirectly”: (i) Is it necessary to set out the definition of “public money” in the propose Order? If so, is it appropriate (as set out under “Interpretation of this field”)? (ii) Duties would only be imposed on the recipients of more than £200,000. Is £200,000 the right threshold for the assembly to have legislative powers? We believe that this is a practical step that is likely to receive fairly wide support. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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10. Is the scope of Matter 20.2 appropriate (“provision about or in connection with the freedom of persons wishing to use the Welsh language to do so with one another (including any limitations on it)”)? Will it allow the Assembly to legislate in future to implement the policy proposal as outlined in the Explanatory Memorandum? By 2005, the Welsh Language Board’s Strategic Plan fulfilled the objective of “ensuring that linguistic rights have a central part to play in terms of equal opportunities in Wales”. There is not much discussion about rights in the chapter on “The Individual and Language Rights” in Iaith Pawb, but it is full of pragmatism and action points; after all, the subtitle of Iaith Pawb is A National Action Plan for a Bilingual Wales.
11. What are your views on Articles 4 and 5 of the proposed LCO which deals with the application of the proposed LCO to Crown bodies? Exempting Crown bodies is not an option.
12. Are there any other issues which would have implications for the eVectiveness of any future Measures, because the proposed LCO is insuYciently broad? If so, can you suggest how the proposed LCO would have to be broadened to address these issues? We believe that there is a way of incorporating educational needs in terms of the Welsh language into legislation, which will come, we hope, in a series of language measures to promote the Welsh language. We believe that the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 has set a precedent for Welsh-language education planning in a holistic way, and we congratulate the Assembly for the success of this process. There is an opportunity to add power to the process of measuring the need for Welsh-medium education, and, by implementing the outcomes of the survey, to step forward to reverse the linguistic shift. This is an excellent example of linguistic planning through an education regime.
We wish to close by referring briefly to social justice. One way of fighting for minority linguistic and educational rights is through the principle of social justice. Often, arguments regarding multilingualism and diversity do not succeed in changing the relationship between hegemonic powers. What is needed is a belief that the majority (and strongest) ethnie has a duty on the grounds of justice to accept such rights.
In Wales, much reference has been made to the supremacy of the English and, in education, the Treachery of the Blue Books. Among campaigners, reference is made to the negative attitude of local government leaders or unsympathetic education oYcers in the past. Currently,it seems that there is an attitude of looking forward, rather than backward, perhaps because the nation has become more self-confident.
Some underline the enormity of the task of persuading the majority of the legitimacy of minority rights, especially because the process challenges the hegemony of the nation-state and, as a result, the role of the majority ethnic group in the nation-state. In Wales, this has begun in many diVerent ways through national institutions, broadcasting in the Welsh-language sector, the law, education, the Welsh Language Board, the Welsh Language Act 1993, the Assembly’s review of language and culture, the feeling of Welshness that flows through the Richard Commission Report (not all of its proposals were implemented), and, historically, the publication of Iaith Pawb and the Assembly Government’s policy aspiration to move the whole nation for the first time in the direction of speaking Welsh under the guise of bilingualism.
Perhaps it is through dual development that success will be achieved, namely the continuous campaigning from the bottom up by individual and influential campaigners and then the guidance and vision of those select and wise politicians who believe in the development of the nation, not only through the economy, health, education, and social inclusion, but also through the Welsh language and Welsh culture.
As the European Union expands, if additional pressure was brought to bear within the day-to-day procedures in Brussels to reduce the number of languages that are used in the Union’s business, that could encourage the governments of less-powerful countries, along with academics and experts in international law, to try to empower international law in the area of minority language rights. On the other hand, if one followed the more pessimistic attitude of Fishman, the lesser-used languages would only contract further.
As the solidarity of Europe as a political unit grows stronger, as its legislation empowers its various partners, as its general currency creates a greater feeling of belonging to a huge organisation, and as the economic policies of the countries become more similar perhaps and less competitive, we should be aware of linguistic uniformity; that would water down the rich cultural and linguistic inheritance of Europe in the world.
Hasten the day when Wales can implement its own vision through its own legislation. February 2009 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Memorandum submitted by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg I am writing on behalf of the Welsh Language Act Group of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, in your capacity as a member of the Welsh AVairs Committee, concerning the expected Legislative Competence Order on the Welsh Language. To start with, we must emphasise our belief that the Welsh Assembly Government has the moral right to legislate on matters concerning the Welsh Language. As a matter of principle and democratic accountability we believe that the Welsh Assembly Government is better placed to deal with this particular issue. Westminster should transfer all responsibilities for Welsh Language legislation to the Senedd in CardiV. The Welsh Assembly Government alone should legislate on this matter and we ask you to accept this issue and allow the Assembly Members in CardiV to get on with the job of forming and passing a strong and eVective language Measure or Measures. The campaign to secure Welsh Language legislation has been a long one. Following years of campaigning, lobbying and thorough discussions our hope is that the LCO will allow a historical opportunity for the Welsh Assembly Government to make a genuine diVerence to the lives of the people of Wales and secure a prosperous future for the Welsh language. The legislation should be both reasonable and ambitious, that will fulfil the vision of a truly bilingual Wales. The time has come to end the inequality and the injustice that exists in Wales by establishing clear and positive language rights for all the people of Wales so that they are able to make full use of the Welsh language in their everyday lives. Following the LCO we wish to see a Welsh Language Measure or Measures that will accomplish the following: (1) OYcial status for the Welsh language in Wales. (2) Rights that will enable the people of Wales to use the Welsh language in all aspects of their lives, including within organisations and companies in both the private and public sector. (3) The establishment of an independent Language Commissioner with the strength to advise companies on the complexities of the Language Measure, and if such occurrences should arise, research any complaints and prosecute those who refuse to conform. Our demands are based on years of research into language legislation in other countries, consultations and discussions with numerous public, private and voluntary bodies. Even the Welsh Assembly Government has adopted our primary aims in their One Wales document. The time has come, at last, to act upon these recommendations and for our democratically elected leaders to show that they can respond positively and sincerely to the wishes of the Welsh people. We therefore hope that you and your fellow members in Westminster will not act in any way that could prevent the Welsh Assembly Government from taking full responsibility for the Welsh language. Over the last few weeks there have been reports in the Welsh press which give the impression that Members of Parliament in Westminster are cynically trying to undermine or weaken the LCO. We must emphasise that if the LCO is not comprehensive and far reaching it will be equivalent to rejecting for ever the right of the people of Wales to exercise their language rights and to see justice and linguistic harmony in our country. 21 January 2009
Memorandum submitted by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (The Welsh Language Society) 1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg welcomes the opportunity to submit evidence to the pre-legislative scrutiny of the proposed Legislative Competence Order in Council on the Welsh Language. Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg has led a prominent public campaign calling on the Welsh Assembly Government since its inception to introduce legislation on the Welsh language. We believe that there is a moral duty on the Welsh Assembly Government to legislate on the Welsh language and we call for the transfer of all powers from Westminster in relation to the Welsh language to the National Assembly of Wales. We call for comprehensive and eVective language Measure(s) that will give the Welsh Language oYcial status, define linguistic rights so that all people in Wales can make full use of and gain fair and equal access to the Welsh language in all aspects of life as well as establish a Commissioner for the Welsh language. Indeed, we strongly believe that this draft LCO is insuYciently broad and needs to be significantly widened in its scope and detail. In particular, the duties imposed on persons in Matter 20.1 should include all persons who provide goods, services or facilities to the public in relation to promoting facilitating the use of the Welsh language; and the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality. Quite simply,if the National Assembly saw fit at some point in the future to add a further category of public service provider to those listed (eg Supermarkets) or even merely to add a further service provider similar in nature to those included (eg buses) the Welsh Assembly Government would once more have to go through this laborious and time consuming process. There is no easy way of adding one or more categories to those persons listed in the LCO therefore there is a need for the list in this Order to be longer and more comprehensive in order to cover every provider of goods, facilities and services. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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The Order could follow the pattern set out in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995(a.19).10 The Order could therefore be amended to read, “This matter does not include putting duties on persons with the exception of those persons who provide goods, services and facilities to the public be that for payment or not” and list (a to i) in the Proposed Order could be omitted. The Heritage Minister has already explained that he is unsure as to whether the limited powers in the current draft will be used in a Measure since it is the aim of the Order to ensure that the powers are available to be used rather than to legislate as such, therefore to replace the present list with broader wording would not mean that the Assembly would have to exercise all these powers at once or even at all—it would be a matter for the elected members of the National Assembly of Wales to decide which powers to use and when. Our concern is that the draft Order places a “No Entry” sign on the road ahead for the Welsh language. There has been a significant increase over the past decade in the number of children and young people who receive their education through the medium of Welsh. We must ensure that young people have the right to use the Welsh language outside of the education system and provide adequate opportunities for all people in Wales to work through the medium of Welsh and to use the language in all aspects of life. In this sense we would therefore obviously strongly oppose any move by Members of the Westminster Parliament to restrict or weaken this LCO.
2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? It is crucial that the Welsh Assembly Government takes full advantage of this historical opportunity to realize the vision set out in Iaith Pawb: “…a truly bilingual Wales, by which we mean a country where people can choose to live their lives through the medium of either or both Welsh or English and where the presence of the two languages is a source of pride and strength to us all.” We have widespread evidence that demonstrates the weaknesses and inadequacies of the current legislation. There is a clear and pressing need to clarify the legal status of the language and to establish statutory linguistic rights in order to ensure eVective bilingual services; services that are accessible, fair and within easy reach of all citizens. As a result we strongly believe that any person or body that provides goods, services or facilities to the public should be included within the Order—irrespective of whether that person/body belongs to the public, private or voluntary sector. It is essential that the Welsh Assembly Government establishes rights so as to defend and promote the dignity of the people of Wales when attempting to use the Welsh language. The Welsh language needs to be considered within the context of ensuring equality and challenging discrimination; the rights of women, disabled people, gays, and racial and ethnic minorities are recognized in law yet the people of Wales have very few actual legal rights in relation to the use of Welsh.
3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? Cymdeithas yr Iaith believes that it is the obvious moral right of the Welsh Assembly Government to legislate on the Welsh language. The Welsh language forms the basis of our unique national identity and it is the Welsh Assembly Government on behalf of the people of Wales who should rightfully legislate on the Welsh language. We therefore call for the transfer of full powers from Westminster to the National Assembly in relation to the Welsh language. However, it is essential that the LCO has suYcient power to enable Measures that will establish the following specific rights: — the right to receive Welsh medium education; — the right to receive goods, services, and facilities in Welsh;
10 19 Discrimination in relation to goods, facilities and services [1] It is unlawful for a provider of services to discriminate against a disabled person (a) in refusing to provide, or deliberately not providing, to the disabled person any service which he provides, or is prepared to provide, to members of the public; (b) in failing to comply with any duty imposed on him by section 21 in circumstances in which the eVect of that failure is to make it impossible or unreasonably diYcult for the disabled person to make use of any such service; (c) in the standard of service which he provides to the disabled person or the manner in which he provides it to him; or (d) in the terms on which he provides a service to the disabled person. [2] For the purposes of this section and sections 20 and 21 (a) the provision of services includes the provision of any goods or facilities; (b) a person is “a provider of services” if he is concerned with the provision, in the United Kingdom, of services to the public or to a section of the public; and (c) it is irrelevant whether a service is provided on payment or without payment. [3] The following are examples of services to which this section and sections 20 and 21 apply (a) access to and use of any place which members of the public are permitted to enter; (b) access to and use of means of communication; (c) access to and use of information services; (d) accommodation in a hotel, boarding house or other similar establishment; (e) facilities by way of banking or insurance or for grants, loans, credit or finance; (f) facilities for entertainment, recreation or refreshment; (g) facilities provided by employment agencies or under section 2 of the [1973 c. 50.] Employment and Training Act 1973; (h) the services of any profession or trade, or any local or other public authority. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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— the right to a court hearing in Welsh and to insist on a Welsh-speaking jury; and — the right to respect, and to be treated equally, and not to suVer discrimination or any disadvantage when using the Welsh language.
4. The extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? The Welsh Language is an essential part of the fabric of modern Wales. It belongs to all the people of Wales. There is a will within the Welsh people for the language to survive and flourish. However, this cannot be achieved without making changes to the conditions that have led to the decline of the language. The UNESCO Endangered Languages List published in February 2009 noted that Welsh is still “endangered”. All evidence points to the fact that languages cannot survive without supportive linguistic environments and this includes legislation. The Catalan language, however, has now been removed from the Endangered Languages List for the first time, and we know that this language has a supportive linguistic environment that is underwritten by language legislation. Legislation alone cannot lead to language revitalization. However, legislation is an important part of the process in order to eVectuate linguistic change. Negative language legislation has led to the demise of the Welsh language. It is now opportune to reverse the negative legislation of the past. There is a widespread belief in Wales that the Welsh language is part and parcel of our collective cultural identity. In the 21st century it makes little sense to maintain the current status quo of the Welsh language not being an oYcial language with no defined rights to use it. Indeed, we believe that this proposed Order is far too narrowly defined; it is constrained by adhering too closely to the Welsh Language Act of 1993 as its focus is almost entirely only on the public sector. Contemporary society has changed significantly and in particular the public sector has shrunk since 1993. Increasingly, services are provided by cross-sector partnerships or they have been privatised. If the Order was passed in its present form the Assembly would have only acquired a few more powers than it has now to legislate on matters concerning the Welsh language. It would not have the powers to fulfil its vision of creating a truly bilingual society with equality between Welsh and English. As things stand now the people of Wales are not able to live their lives through the medium of either Welsh or English according to their choice; anyone can choose to live their lives through the medium of English but no one can live their life fully through the medium of Welsh. In certain areas, Welsh can be used fully, in other areas Welsh can be used up to a point at certain times, but in other areas Welsh cannot be used at all. The latter two areas are more prominent than the first. It is not clear to the citizen what Welsh language services are available and because of the piecemeal nature and the inconsistent quality of bilingual services, people’s expectations tend to be very limited. The present situation is one of inequality and oppression. The Explanatory Memorandum promises so much more: “A key principle underpinning these proposals, however, is that citizens should have a clear understanding of the level of Welsh language services they can expect to receive irrespective of the nature of the public provider.” (ME 21). But despite the rhetoric the nature of the provider is central to this Order ie only public bodies or bodies that provide on behalf of public bodies, or bodies that used to be described as public bodies (ie utilities) are included. By now a whole generation of people has grown up who don’t remember that gas companies used to be public utilities, and therefore will hardly understand why these have been included and why petroleum companies have been excluded—since both provide fuel. It appears to us that the Welsh Assembly Government, a coalition of two Socialist parties, have given in to the persistent demands of big business not to be regulated or required to provide a bilingual service. The CBI and others would argue that voluntary self-regulation is the best policy. Over the last few months we have witnessed the ineVectiveness of the banking sector in relation to self-regulation, and the Government, along with every citizen in this country, has had to pay for the soft touch approach of self-regulation. The failure of the business sector to voluntarily oVer a comprehensive high quality bilingual service despite much persuasion and talk of the importance of good will now makes it essential that the Government intervenes in order to safeguard the rights of the citizen. Short-term profit, regardless of the cost governs the thinking of any large corporation despite the empty rhetoric of “social responsibility”. It is the responsibility of Government to make sure that its actions do not infringe on the rights of the citizen. Recently Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg conducted a small survey of private companies asking them if they would leave Wales if legislation was passed to require bilingual services. Here are some of the responses we received: Boots: “We do not intend to bring to an end any of our activities in Wales following the Welsh language LCO, or the anticipated Measure following the LCO.” O2: “No we are committed to providing a great experience to our Welsh customers.” Co-op: “If the order which is given will transfer the power to create Acts from London to the Welsh Assembly is passed I can confirm that this shouldn’t have an impact upon The Co-operative Bank operations in Wales.” Abbey: “With regard to your question the answer is no.” Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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The CBI in Wales and others are only too ready to muddy the waters and embark on scaremongering. Claims of private companies leaving countries because of language legislation are totally false. International companies are prepared to conform with linguistic legislation in those countries where they wish to do business. If you take a look at lKEA’s website (http://www.ikea.com/) the websites for Belgium, Hong Kong and Canada are bilingual, the website for Switzerland is tri-lingual—that is because bilingualism or indeed multilingualism is seen as the norm in those countries. The page for Spain is in Spanish only, but if you were to visit the page for l’Hospitalet in Catalonia, the information relevant to that shop is in Catalan only. You can download various leaflets on kitchens, cupboards, beds etc. in Catalan or Spanish. Recently Alun Pugh (former Minister for the Welsh Language) and The Welsh Language Board congratulated lKEA for erecting a few bilingual signs in their CardiV store. But their gentle persuasion was not as eVective as the language laws in Catalonia. If you were to visit the page for the shop in CardiV (http://www.ikea.com/ms/en GB/ local home/cardiV.html), there is not a word of Welsh to be seen. lKEA know that they are not under any legal obligation to oVer a Welsh language service. At the end of the day the cost of partially translating a website or erecting a few bilingual signs will not prevent a large international company like lKEA from coming to Wales. There is a strong and important argument that introducing Welsh into the private sector on a statutory basis could give an enormous boost to the Welsh economy—if we are to have a bilingual service, resources have to be made available. Quite often these companies already have the necessary manpower—a Welsh speaking staff—but they have been prohibited from speaking the language in the workplace or the companies have not made the best use of them. In certain fields staV will need to be trained—they will have to re-learn or improve their language skills or they may have to be trained in how to provide a bilingual service. Translators and editors will be needed. Techniques will need to be developed to help companies and customers to communicate with each other bilingually. It’s nonsense to claim that Tesco, PC World or Lloyds TSB would close all their stores/branches in Wales with the introduction of a comprehensive new Welsh Language Act. If they were obliged to prepare leaflets, posters, and bilingual staV to work in shops or answer the phone they are far more likely to establish a head oYce in Wales to deal with these matters, and that will create more work. As things stand south Wales is usually served from oYces in the West of England and north Wales from north west England. It would be ridiculous for staV from these oYces to prepare a bilingual service and there is a valid argument for moving the headquarters to Wales, where it would be possible to print all the posters, leaflets and the own brand food leaflets bilingually using a bilingual staV. In our opinion the draft Order includes some important issues, but they can be seen as marginal in relation to everyday life. For example; 60% go shopping at least once a week, with 24% shopping even more frequently. 90% of us shop in supermarkets.11 There is no doubt that supermarkets, especially the four larger ones (Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and Sainsburys) are a powerful influence on our everyday life. As well as food they provide us with goods, services and commodities and are there to take care of us from the cradle to the grave. As well as baby foods and nappies there are facilities to save money for your children or you can go on a childcare course (Baby Safe Course)—all in English. You can even purchase your last will in Tesco (in English of course) and leave something to your children. It is true that these supermarkets oVer a certain amount of Welsh language service ie a few signs in the shop but the service is sparse and irregular. There are scanning machines in Tesco and M&S with Welsh as an option but not in the others. There is some Welsh on the Morrisons website (http://www.morrisons.co.uk/Cymreag/) but the others have no Welsh on their website. If the Government is to eVectively enable the citizens of Wales to live their lives through the medium of either Welsh or English according to their wish, the private sector must be included in its entirety.The private sector has had 20 years and more to oVer a voluntary Welsh language service but it has been a piecemeal oVering, and that is how things will be until we have legislation. We propose a system of establishing codes of conduct and regulations notifying the appropriate steps for a provider within each sector, taking the following into consideration: a) the number of people employed by the service provider; b) the location of the service provider; c) the linguistic nature of the area where the service provider is based as described in an atlas commissioned by the Welsh Language Council referred to in sub section 7(2)(d); d) the nature of the service users; and e) the nature of the service provided. Therefore the expectations would be higher in a supermarket employing 50 in an area where 70% of the population is Welsh speaking rather than in a bicycle repair shop in Pembroke Dock employing only two people. The supermarket oVers a general service aimed at the public in general. The bicycle repair shop oVers a specialised service for specialists. Both premises would be expected to conform to a basic level of service wherever they were located in Wales eg a sign in Welsh explaining the nature of the business on the outside,
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but it is possible that the code would demand that a business such as the supermarket would put up internal signs in Welsh, make their announcements bilingually, and ensure there are Welsh speaking staV available to deal with the public. We also note that we do not agree that any threshold be set in relation to matter 20.1 sub-section (e). How is it realistic to expect that the citizens of Wales keep an eye on which companies receive this amount of money before they can expect a comprehensive service? Will a company continue to provide a bilingual service beyond the period of the annual sum?
5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? The implementation of all legislation requires adequate levels of funding. It would be inappropriate to suggest that legislation in relation to the Welsh language would be any diVerent.
6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? Cymdeithas yr Iaith believes that it is clearly the moral right of the Welsh Assembly Government to legislate on the Welsh language. The Welsh language forms the basis of our unique national identity and it is the Welsh Assembly Government on behalf of the people of Wales who should rightfully legislate in relation to the Welsh language. We therefore call for the transfer of full powers from Westminster to the National Assembly in relation to the Welsh language.
7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) In order to create a supportive linguistic environment within which the Welsh language can flourish it is essential that citizens are able to access Welsh language provision with ease and equality of opportunity. Citizens should not be expected to carry with them at all times knowledge of the complicated devolution settlement and adjust their linguistic expectations accordingly. Therefore, providers of goods, services and utilities to the people of Wales should be expected to comply with this proposed legislation wherever they are located. For this reason also we strongly disagree with the provision in the LCO for the exemption of Ministers of the Crown from this legislation as noted in S. 5—(2). Ministers should be punished if they contravene the rights of the people of Wales to use the Welsh language. If they do what is expected of them then they have nothing to fear. But we have evidence to prove that certain government departments in London do not treat the Welsh language on the basis of equality with English. No government agent should be above the law especially with regard to ensuring parity of service and equal opportunity to all citizens of the devolved nations. We also strongly disagree with the fact that the courts are not included in the LCO as stated in 3.—(2). We also note that in relation to Matter 20.2, we believe that this freedom should be redefined as a matter of right so that there will be an end to any discrimination against any citizen that wishes to make use of the Welsh language in Wales. We already have the freedom—it is the right that we demand. We would not agree to any limits on that right.
8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? It will be necessary to establish the oYce of a Commissioner for the Welsh language in order to ensure that people are made aware of their rights and that those rights are properly implemented and maintained. We now have in Wales Commissioners who champion the rights of children and young people and older people and those structures have made a significant diVerence in real terms to the quality of life of the people of Wales. The Commissioner for the Welsh language would investigate complaints and either prosecute bodies or persons who contravene the law or provide help for individuals who wish to pursue their rights through the courts. It will also be necessary to establish a National Council for the Welsh language who would instigate extensive research and a programme of socio linguistic planning with democratic membership to guide its work. Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Dr David Dalby (LCO WL 17) As a retired professional linguist in Wales, I write in support of the proposed LCO on the Welsh language as laid before Parliament by the National Assembly of Wales. Reference is made within the proposed LCO to “the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality”, a principle with which I fully concur. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Having had no opportunity of studying Welsh at my primary and secondary schools in CardiV from 1939 onwards, I am delighted that facilities have since become available throughout Wales for the study of Welsh from nursery school onwards. I am concerned, however, that there are now many primary schools in Wales where there are no parallel facilities for the study of English from the age of 5, and—especially in rural areas—no alternative schools available within easy travelling distance for the education of young children in English as well as Welsh. As a result, my own youngest child, born in west Wales in October 2001, will have received eight terms of schooling in Welsh since her 5th birthday but no schooling in English until shortly before her 8th birthday. I am delighted that my daughter has been able to learn Welsh at an early age, and that I have had the opportunity to provide her with education in English at home. I am deeply concerned, however, that English is no longer available as an integral part of the early primary curriculum of all schools in the United Kingdom, either for children whose mother-tongue is Welsh or for children (like my own daughter and the majority of children at her community school) whose mother-tongue is English or any other language. Whereas it is right and important that the National Assembly of Wales should have legislative competence for the Welsh Language in Wales, it would seem equally right and important that the United Kingdom Parliament should retain legislative competence for the English language throughout the United Kingdom. It can be strongly argued that all children in Wales have a right to receive eYcient bilingual education in Welsh and English, but that this should include their right within the United Kingdom to receive a proportion of their education on and in the English language from the age of five. The Education Act 1996 requires parents to ensure that their children receive an eYcient education, which in the United Kingdom should surely include provision for English throughout the school system. It should also be noted that UNESCO (Education in a multilingual world, 2003) has recommended that all children should have the opportunity of beginning their education in their mother-tongue. Although this recommendation was formulated in the context of protecting minority and endangered languages, it should be emphasised that a young child’s mother-tongue has a deep emotional and intellectual importance for that child, regardless of whether it is spoken by 20% of the population of their own country or by 20% of the population of the world. I trust that this matter will be addressed directly in your scrutiny, and I remain at your disposal if I can be of any further professional help. As an emeritus reader in African languages from SOAS, I long ago regretted the fact that we provided courses at the University of London on Asian and African languages but not on modern Welsh, a descendent of the ancient language of most of Great Britain (from Cornwall to the Clyde). Part of the cultural equality of Welsh and English should surely involve a greater concern with the Welsh language in England, at least at some English universities and schools? I trust that it will not be long before we have the pleasure of hearing bilingual announcements at Paddington, for all trains departing to Wales! March 2009
Supplementary memorandum submitted by Dr David Dalby Summary 1. As a professional linguist concerned with the study and teaching of European and African languages for the last 60 years, I write in support of the proposed LCO on the Welsh language. 2. I believe, however, that the proposed LCO should make specific reference to the field of Education, even though the National Assembly for Wales already has legislative competence in that field. 3. Education is fundamental to any strategy relating to the future of the Welsh language. The laying of the proposed LCO in 2009 has made it appropriate that all educational planning for that future be now publicly reviewed and discussed as an integral part of the scrutiny of the National Assembly’s existing and proposed legislative powers (see para 22). 4. The principle of “the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality” has been specifically raised in the context of the proposed LCO, with a view to allowing the Welsh and English languages to play a more equal role in Welsh public life. 5. The same principle must apply also and specifically to the field of education, where at present individual schools and LEA’s do not always treat the two languages on the basis of equality, through the operation of oYcially sanctioned programmes which favour either Welsh or English. 6. There can be no quid pro quo in this area, since most individual children attend only one category of school. There is no apparent reason why all school-children in Wales should not enjoy the benefits of eYcient bilingual education. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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7. I therefore propose that the wording of Matter 20.1 be extended as follows: Matter 20.1: Promoting or facilitating the use of the Welsh language; and the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality, in the Field of Education and elsewhere.
The Essential Relevance of Bilingual Education to the Purposes of the Proposed LCO 8. The desire of the National Assembly to acquire legislative competence with regard to the Welsh language reflects the right of any linguistic community to defend and if necessary legislate in favour of a language which has suVered and might continue to suVer from the presence of another more widely used language in the same country. 9. At the same time, it is clearly appropriate that any such legislative competence should be acquired and exercised in careful consideration of other rights which might be aVected by future legislation on the subject of the use of individual languages, especially in the field of compulsory education. 10. The Welsh language (Cymraeg) is in a unique position in the world. Although spoken in a small country on the fringe of Europe, its speakers have successfully resisted the penetration of this country during the last two millennia by two of the most powerful languages in the history of the world, first Latin and then English. 11. Because of such long and successful eVorts to retain its own language, Wales is strongly placed to provide an example to other linguistic communities of ways in which less widely spoken languages may retain their traditional usage and integrity alongside the increasing use of English as the dominant world language. 12. For this reason, as well as for reasons of personal rights within Wales itself, it is of fundamental importance that any future legislative competence with regard to language use in Wales should be formulated and exercised with utmost care and consideration. 13. A generation of Welsh speakers has had great success in the development of Welsh medium education during the second half of the last century, overturning centuries of prejudice against the language of Wales. It is important, however, that that same success should not lead to any legislation in the short-term in favour of the Welsh language which might in fact be to its long-term disadvantage. 14. In laying the present LCO before Parliament, the National Assembly has emphasized the principle of “the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality”, as invoked in the Welsh Language Act 1993. It is of importance that this principle should be observed in both directions in the field of education, notwithstanding the huge inequality in the relative communicational power and reach of the two languages. 15. The future of the Welsh language will depend on the willingness of the non-Welsh speaking majority in Wales to acquire that language, or rather to ensure that their children acquire fluency in the Welsh language from the earliest possible age. In a democratic society, however, any suggestion of legislative coercion in favour of a less widely spoken language in a bilingual context is liable to be counter-productive. 16. For this reason also, it is important that Welsh and English should be treated on the basis of equality throughout the educational system in Wales (see para 42 below). No child should be denied an eYcient education through the medium of both languages from the beginning of compulsory education in Wales, either at school or otherwise. Beyond the immediate goal of defending the Welsh language lies the wider goal of providing all children in Wales with the advantages of a truly bilingual system of education. 17. In this context, the central purpose of the present submission is to draw attention to the central and unavoidable link between the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales in the field of education (Field 5 in the 2007 LCO on Framework Powers, and in Annex A to the presently proposed LCO) and the Assembly’s proposed competence in the field of the Welsh language (Field 20). 18. On 3 February 2009, a Statement on the proposed Welsh Language Legislative Competence Order was presented to the National Assembly by the Minister for Heritage Alun Ffred Jones AM. 19. At the outset of that Statement, the Minister emphasized that: “It must be remembered that publication [of the proposed LCO] is but the start of the process. There is work ahead before the Assembly achieves competence in this field. There will be many opportunities to discuss the details of how best to promote and facilitate the Welsh language, while ensuring that none of this subtracts from the rights of English speakers.” 20. The Minister further emphasized that it would be for a Measure derived from the proposed LCO to create structures confirming oYcial status for both Welsh and English, including linguistic rights in the provision of services and the establishment of the post of language commissioner. 21. Nevertheless, among the subsequent questions and statements of support from all political parties, three Assembly Members commented on the exclusion of education from the matters covered specifically by the proposed LCO. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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22. The Minister reminded Members that a Welsh language strategy is currently in preparation and that a crucial discussion on Welsh language education will be possible after it becomes available in the spring [of 2009]. He went on to explain: “You referred to education, but I would have thought that, for the most part, those powers already reside with the Assembly. We do not need any more powers to carry out anything that we need to do in that area; it is already a matter for us here. I do not know how education would have been included in the proposed LCO; it would certainly have slowed down the process, and we would still be waiting for the legislation, which is not what we are about. 23. This forthcoming “crucial discussion” will indeed be crucial for the development of Welsh language education, for the planning of a truly bilingual Wales and—inevitably—for the establishment of clear principles for the Measures dependent on the currently proposed LCO. 24. There appears to be no reason why the discussion of legislation in Wales relating to language use and/ or languages in education should not pay due regard to three basic principles, formulated and published by UNESCO in a Position Paper entitled Education in a multilingual world (Paris 2003). These three Principles, based on a review of previous declarations and recommendations, may be briefly set out as follows: 25. “Principle 1: Mother tongue instruction is essential for initial instruction and literacy and should be extended to as late a stage in education as possible … Every pupil should begin his or her formal education in his or her mother tongue … 26. Principle 2: Bilingual and/or Multilingual education [involves] … the early acquisition of a second language in addition to the mother tongue… 27. Principle 3: Inter-cultural education [is a means to] eliminate discrimination in education at all levels on the basis of … language… or any other form of discrimination.” 28. These three principles are each directly relevant to the scrutiny of the proposed LCO on the Welsh language. They are relevant not because they have any legal force, but because they raise inter-dependent principles for protecting the educational rights and needs of all children, fully pertinent to the proposed LCO and its present scrutiny.
Principle 1 29. It is self-evident that children, having invested the first years of their lives acquiring a means of communication within their family environment, will be better placed to tackle the new environment of early education if they are able to do so in their mother tongue. 30. A century ago, children were often scolded, or even punished, for talking their mother-tongue at school—if this happened to be the Welsh language in Wales, for example, or the closely related Breton language in France. 31. We now live in a more enlightened age, and it is vital that the National Assembly should—within the context of the proposed LCO—accept the principle of enabling children to be educated for as long as possible through the medium (but not necessarily the exclusive medium) of their mother-tongue. 32. The practical application of this principle in the case of small language communities in Wales (such as Polish or Somali, for example) may require separate consideration, but there is clearly no impediment to its application to the native speakers of each of the two major languages of Wales, Welsh and English.
Principle 2 33. It is self-evident that children have natural aptitude and appetite for the acquisition of languages, which diminish as they grow older. It is therefore advantageous to develop their knowledge of more than one language as early as possible in their lives, and to provide them with the educational and psychological advantages which competence in two or more languages is known to provide. 34. One important area of necessary development is in the creation of an interface between the two languages in an eYcient bilingual system of education, including the development of translation and interpretation skills, and the conscious understanding of spoken and written diVerences between the two languages (as exemplified by the diVerent spelling systems of Welsh and English). 35. Early acquisition of bilingual ability also lays a foundation for the subsequent learning of a third “foreign” language (French being particularly suited to trilingual education in Wales because of its historic influence on both Welsh and English). 36. As the legislative assembly of a bilingual country, the National Assembly is in an ideal position to establish bilingual education in Welsh and English as the realizable norm for all children from the age of five (or earlier). It would appear logical that such a principle should be explicit within the context of the proposed LCO (see para 7 above). Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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37. Great care should be exercised in establishing a balanced proportion between the share of either language in a system of genuinely bilingual education. It would not seem inappropriate to legislate for the use of each of two such languages during a minimum of 30–40% of the classroom timetable in each school week. If all schools in Wales follow a truly bilingual system of education, then such percentages would permit the eYcient sharing of relevant staV between pairs of schools in the same geographical area.
Principle 3 38. It is self-evident that children in Wales should enjoy the benefits of education appropriate to their individual needs, free of all unfair discrimination based on their mother-tongue, on their family background or on their place of residence within Wales. 39. It was appropriate, during the latter half of the 20th century, that specific Welsh-medium schools should have been established as a corrective to the discouragement of Welsh language education in Wales, as was still common during the childhood of the present writer. The results of the subsequent success of Welsh-medium schools have been notable but that success should not be allowed to detract from the educational needs of all the children of Wales in the context of the 21st century. 40. It is unfortunate that reference should sometimes be made to the existence of “Welsh schools” (ie Welsh-medium schools) as opposed to other schools in this country. All schools in Wales are Welsh schools by definition, and the LCO should be promoted not only with reference to legislation aVecting adults, but also with reference to the goal of bilingualism for pupils in all Welsh schools, ie in all schools in Wales. 41. It can be strongly argued that categorising schools on the basis of language, or even on the basis of language choices made by parents or by governing bodies, is a form of discrimination among the children who are pupils at diVerent schools. Public debate, professional discussion and early trials are urgently needed with a view to ensuring that all children in Wales may benefit from the clear advantages of early bilingual education, continuing at least to the end of Key Stage 4. 42. It is true that English, as the dominant majority language in Wales, does not need the same level of institutional support as Welsh (see Iaith Pawb, 2002, p.9). However, both languages require comparable levels of educational support in the context of the eYcient bilingual education of all school-children in Wales. All children deserve equal support in the use of their mother-tongue, and all children deserve equal support in their mastery of the other language of Wales, whichever that may be.
Conclusion 43. It is proposed that careful attention be devoted to the feasibility of establishing the following national principles of bilingual education in Wales, to the benefit of all children in Wales. A. There is no reason why every school-child in Wales (without relevant disability) should not enjoy the benefits of an eYcient bilingual education in Welsh, the identifying language of Wales, and in English, the major international language of the world, from the age of five until at least the age of 15. B. There is no reason why that education in Wales should not include the target of a certificate of bilingual proficiency in Welsh and English (spoken and written, with options in translation and interpretation) or why every school-child should not be given the option of continuing her or his education through the medium of both languages from the age of 16. C. There is no reason why every school-child in Wales who has successfully acquired bilingual proficiency in Welsh and English should not receive an eYcient introduction to a third “foreign” language before the age of ten. D. There is also no reason why any child in Wales hitherto monolingual in Welsh or English should be required to begin reading and writing at school in any language other than her or his own mother-tongue. 44. The writer trusts that this submission will not be dismissed as either irrelevant or as insuYciently succinct. It is based on the conviction that Wales can provide an example in leading a multilingual world towards greater unity, based on a respect for the languages and cultures of others and on systems of education leading to proficiency in at least two languages. 45. There will hopefully be an early opportunity for public discussion in Wales on strengthening the existing partnership between the Welsh and English languages in all fields, including education, public life and national culture. This will be essential if the principle of equality between the two languages, invoked by the proposed LCO, is to be eVectively realized. 46. With an appropriate strategy of bilingual education there is no reason why the National Assembly for Wales should not set a national target of 50% bilingualism among the population of Wales by the year 2050. March 2009 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Memorandum submitted by Robert Dunbar, University of Aberdeen Executive Summary 1. The Proposed Order would permit the Welsh Assembly to consider and develop legislation that would allow for the creation of certain language rights for Welsh speakers, the creation of an oYce of Language Commissioner, and, potentially, the imposition of certain duties on voluntary and private sector bodies with regard to the use of Welsh. Such measures would be consistent with approaches taken in several jurisdictions having highly developed and eVective legislative frameworks for the protection and promotion of historically marginalised languages such as Welsh. It would be most appropriate to allow the Welsh Assembly to consider and develop such legislation.
Introduction 2. I am a Reader in Law and Celtic at the University of Aberdeen, where I have developed an M.Litt. programme in Minority Language Policy and Planning. I am an Expert of the Council of Europe and I work regularly with the Secretariat of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. I am also a member of Bo`rd na Ga`idhlig, the statutory body created under the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 to oversee Gaelic development, and of the board of MG ALBA, a statutory body which, in partnership with the BBC, runs the new Gaelic digital channel BBC ALBA. My research focuses on legal regimes in both international and national law for the management of linguistic diversity, as well as on policy and planning for minority languages.
Factual Information 3. I note that the Committee particularly welcomed comments on eight questions relating to the Proposed Order. I have no particular expertise with respect to many of these questions, and therefore I shall not explicitly refer to any of them, although I expect that this submission may be of some relevance to questions 4, and 8. 4. The purpose of the Proposed Order is to allow the Welsh Assembly to update the legislative framework for the protection of the Welsh language. While there is a range of UK legislation which forms part of this framework, the single most important piece of legislation in this regard, and the one to which the Memorandum from the Welsh Assembly Government on the Proposed Order (“WAG Memorandum”) most often makes reference, is the Welsh Language Act 1993 (“1993 Act”). 5. The most notable feature of the framework established by the 1993 Act is the Welsh language scheme mechanism which it employs, and I assume that the Committee is familiar with this mechanism. A large number of such schemes have been created, and it appears that most public sector institutions in Wales are now bound by one. 6. The mechanism of Welsh language schemes was in many ways innovative. In particular, while it recognised that in principle Welsh and English should be treated on the basis of equality in the conduct of public business, it also recognised that there could be considerable diVerences in the ability of any particular public body to turn this principle into reality, for example, because of diVerences in potential demand for Welsh-medium services due to diVerent linguistic demographics in diVerent parts of Wales and in levels of preparedness of public bodies for the provision of services in Welsh. The Welsh language schemes allowed the Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg (“Bwrdd”) to respond in a principled but flexible way to these realities. In jurisdictions such as Ireland and Scotland in which similar conditions exist, recent legislation has followed the Welsh model (see, for example, the schemes under the Irish OYcial Languages Act 2003 or the Gaelic language plans under Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005). 7. The Welsh language schemes have undoubtedly significantly increased the visibility of the Welsh language (through, for example, bilingual signage obligations in Welsh language schemes), the opportunities to use it in dealing with public bodies in Wales, and have thereby improved perceptions of the usefulness of the language. They have therefore made a positive contribution to the protection and promotion of Welsh. However, a number of shortcomings have become apparent in the present framework; these are usefully summarised in the WAG Memorandum, and I would simply endorse the analysis set out therein. I would, however, also note that the Welsh legislative framework diVers from other important models for the protection and promotion of other comparable languages in many respects, and it is upon these diVerences that I shall concentrate in this submission. 8. First, the legislative framework created by the 1993 Act is notable for its general lack of any identifiable language rights; the only such right is that under section 22 of the 1993 Act, in respect of the use of Welsh in legal proceedings. An important feature of many influential models for the protection and promotion of minority languages is the creation of a right to use the minority language in dealing with and receiving services from the public sector. 9. For example, the Canadian constitution specifies that speakers of either French or English have a right to receive public services through the medium of either of either of these two languages in dealing with the federal government and the head or central oYce of federal institutions, as well as any other oYce of the federal government where there is suYcient demand for such provision or where, due to the nature of the Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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oYce, such provision is reasonable (section 20, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms; this right is amplified upon in the OYcial Languages Act 1988). Similar rights exist in the legislation of Canadian provinces such as Ontario in which French-speakers form a minority (see, for example, the French Language Services Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. F.32, section 5(1)). 10. The creation of a right to use a minority language in dealing with and receiving services from the public sector is an important feature of other well-developed language regimes, such as those of Catalonia, the Basque Autonomous Community and Finland. The Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia of 2006, for example, provides both that in respect of their relations with public institutions, organisations and the public administration, citizens have the right to use the oYcial language (Catalan or Spanish) of their choice (Article 33.1). The Statute of Autonomy of the Basque Country of 1979 provides that the public institutions of the Basque Autonomous Community will guarantee the use of both oYcial languages (Basque and Spanish) (Article 6.2), and amongst the “fundamental linguistic rights” guaranteed under Article 5.2 of the Basic Law for the Normalisation of Euskera of 1982 is the right to communicate orally or in writing in Basque or Spanish with the public administration of the Community (Article 5.2.a). Under the Finnish Language Act of 2003, Swedish speakers, who constitute a minority in Finland, have a right to use Swedish in dealing with an authority of the Finnish State or with an authority of a bilingual municipality (ie a municipality in which Swedish speakers represent at least 8 percent of the population or number at least 3,000) (section 10, Language Act (423/2003)). 11. A second way in which the Welsh model diVers from those of other important models for the protection and promotion of a minority language is the relative weakness of its mechanisms for the enforcement of the legislative framework, set out in sections 17 to 20 of the 1993 Act; again, I assume that the Committee is familiar with these mechanisms. I understand that the Bwrdd has very rarely used its full powers under this regime. In many ways, this is understandable, as the current mechanism leaves the Bwrdd in a diYcult position: the eVective operation of the Welsh language scheme mechanism requires the Bwrdd to work cooperatively with public bodies, while the enforcement mechanism puts the Bwrdd in an essentially adversarial position with such bodies. In my view, it preferable for another body to carry out the task of monitoring and enforcing the implementation of Welsh language schemes, and other aspects of the existing or future legal framework for the Welsh language. 12. In this context, it should be noted that the present enforcement mechanisms diVer from those of comparable regimes in at least two important respects. First, many regimes provide that the enforcement of the language regime is overseen by a Language Commissioner. The prototype for this mechanism is the Canadian OYce of the Commissioner of OYcial Languages (http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/html/index e.php) which, under the OYcial Languages Act 1988, has broad powers to investigate complaints made by members of the public in respect of failures to observe the Act or other aspects of the language regime, make recommendations and, if necessary, to take action through the courts in order to enforce the law. The Irish OYcial Languages Act 2003 created the oYce of a language commissioner, An Coimisine´ir Teanga (http:// www.coimisineir.ie/) based on the Canadian model. Second, many of the other regimes referred to in this memorandum also provide for a “self-help” mechanism, whereby members of the public can themselves take to court public bodies which fail to respect language rights or implement language obligations. 13. The third notable aspect of the current Welsh framework is that it generally imposes obligations only on the public sector. This aspect of the regime is not unusual; aside from matters such as product labelling, most language legislation is limited to guaranteeing the use of minority languages in legislatures, courts and tribunals, and the public administration. However, this is changing, and the application of language legislation to the private and voluntary sector is now becoming more common. 14. The most well-known example of this is found in the language regime of the Province of Quebec. Under Law 101, The Charter of the French Language (R.S.Q. c. C-11), every person has a right to have all enterprises doing business in Quebec deal with him or her in French (Article 2). Furthermore, consumers of goods and services have a right to be informed and served in French (Article 5), and Title I, Chapter VII contains a range of provisions requiring the use of French by businesses in public notices, signage, labelling, contracts, invoices, and so forth. 15. Similarly,Article 34(1) of the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia of 2006 provides that each individual, in his or her capacity as a user or consumer of goods, products and services, has the right to be served orally and in writing in the oYcial language (Catalan or Spanish) of their choice, and Articles 30 to 33 impose a range of obligations regarding the use of Catalan in public notices, signage, labelling, invoices, and so forth. 16. A notable recent example of the imposition of obligations on the non-state sector is found in recent legislation of the Canadian territory of Nunavut in respect of the language of the Inuit, an indigenous people of the Arctic whose language has historically been marginalised, although it is still spoken by roughly two- thirds of Nunavut’s population of almost 30,000. The Inuit Language Protection Act 2008 will require all public and private sector bodies to use the Inuit language in all public signs, posters and commercial advertising, in reception services and customer or client services, and to communicate with the public in the Inuit language when delivering essential services and household, residential or hospitality services defined in this act (sections 3(1) and 3(2)). Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Recommendations for Action 17. The 27 June, 2007 coalition agreement between the Labour and Plaid Cymru groups in the National Assembly for Wales commits the two parties to seek enhanced legislative competence on the Welsh language with a view to creating, under authority of a Legislative Competence Order, an Assembly Measure that would include linguistic rights in the provision of services and the establishment of the post of Language Commissioner. 18. The Proposed Order does not specifically refer to the creation of rights, except the right of persons wishing to use the Welsh language to do so with one another (Matter 20.2) (such a right would in my view be most desirable, and would be fully consistent with the right to freedom of expression which is already protected in the Human Rights Act 1998). It does, however, contemplate the imposition of duties on certain persons, and this, in my view, would be suYciently broad to allow for the creation of related rights under any Assembly Measure that is developed on the basis of the Proposed Order. Further, in addition to allowing for the imposition of duties on public authorities, the Proposed Order would potentially permit the imposition of duties on some (though clearly not all) voluntary and private sector bodies (for example, persons referred to in Matter 20.1 (e) (“persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more”) or (h)). Finally, while the Proposed Order makes no reference to the creation of the oYce of Language Commissioner, it is my view that the general reference in the order to promoting or facilitating the use of the Welsh language is suYciently broad to allow for the creation of such an oYce under any Assembly Measure that is ultimately developed. 19. The creation of linguistic rights in respect of the provision of public services, the creation of the oYce of Language Commissioner, and the imposition of duties on at least some private and voluntary sector bodies would be consistent with many of the most eVective regimes in other jurisdictions for the protection and promotion of languages which, like Welsh, have been historically marginalised and would represent an appropriate and desirable development of the linguistic regime for the protection and promotion of Welsh. 20. The Proposed Order does not guarantee that the resulting Assembly Measure will ultimately result in the creation of linguistic rights, the oYce of Language Commissioner, or any duties for the private and voluntary sector, but it would permit the Welsh Assembly, and through the Assembly the broader public in Wales, to debate such measures. Given that the Government of Wales Act 2006 recognises that matters relating to the Welsh language are generally within the purview of the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Assembly Government (see section 78, Schedule 5, item 20 and Schedule 6, item 20), it is diYcult to see why the Assembly should not be empowered to enter into such debate and, should there exist suYcient support, to develop an Assembly Measure addressing the matters discussed above. 21. Consequently, I would recommend that the Proposed Order be approved by the Committee and the House of Commons. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by E.ON Welsh Language Order 2009 Currently E.ON supplies electricity and/or gas to around 90,000 customers, distributes electricity to around 5,000 customers and produces electricity at three locations in Wales. As a relatively small energy supplier in Wales we are keen to ensure that the legislation expected to result from the Legislative Competence Order allows flexibility in the operation of a Welsh Language Scheme and does not lead to disproportionate costs which put at risk our ability to oVer competitive services to Welsh customers. Our trade body, the Energy Retail Association, has met the Heritage Minister, Alun Ffred Jones AM, and we welcome the flexible and permissive approach that has been demonstrated thus far in discussions about Welsh language services. Legislation that allows these services to be delivered in a variety of ways will be the most eVective means of facilitating the use of Welsh in competitive utility markets, such as energy or telecommunications, and will reduce the risk of any increase in energy prices in Wales relative to England and Scotland or of a less competitive market. The Committee may wish to note two apparent anomalies in the Order in respect of energy services: — It only covers electricity and gas energy supply. Many households are heated by oil, LPG or biomass and, although the supply may tend to be provided by smaller businesses, it would seem more appropriate for the National Assembly to decide the scope of any regulations than to exclude alternative energy supplies from the Order. — Electricity production is included, although there is no direct service provided to consumers. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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The Committee may also wish to consider whether there should have been a full Regulatory Impact Assessment. E.ON, together with a number of other organisations mentioned in the Order, is a private sector business and as such further scrutiny should be given to the impact of this legislation on business operations. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Federation of Small Business Introduction 1. The Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) is the UK’s largest business organisation which represents the interests of over 215,000 members across the UK, more than 10,000 of which are located in Wales. The FSB’s membership is diverse and is therefore a sound reflection of the majority of SMEs in Wales. We welcome the opportunity to submit evidence to this Committee, as we feel that as the vast majority of businesses in Wales are SMEs, it is important for the views of this sector to be strongly represented.
2. FSB Wales membership breakdown, taken from March 2008 Wales survey:
Type of premises that the main business is run from:
Wales % UK Average %
Home 26.7 32.7 Retail/shop unit 24.9 19.4 OYce 13.2 15.1 Factory, workshop, business unit, work yard 21.0 22.3 Other 14.2 10.5
Location of main business premises:
Wales % UK Average %
City Centre 4.5 9.3 Town Centre 21.1 17.4 Village centre, farm, rural area 36.6 29.0 Business park/industrial estate 21.6 19.8 “High street”/commercial/residential district in suburb 16.3 24.6
Industry of main business:
Wales% UK Average %
Agriculture, forestry, fishing 3.4 3.0 Mining & Quarrying 0.3 0.5 Manufacturing 7.1 9.9 Electricity, gas and water supply 1.1 0.6 Construction and building related activities 12.2 11.4 Sale, maintenance & repair of motor vehicles and fuel retail 2.4 2.7 Wholesale trade 4.2 3.3 Retailing 21.7 17.1 Hotels, restaurants, bars and catering 9.0 7.2 Transport and activities related to transport 5.8 5.1 Post, courier and telecommunications services 0.3 0.5 Financial services 2.9 3.7 Real estate activities 1.6 2.1 Renting of machinery, equipment, personal and household goods 0.5 0.4 Computer and related activities 2.6 4.1 Research and development activities 1.1 0.7 Business services 7.4 12.8 Education 2.4 2.8 Health and social work 3.7 3.6 Personal services 6.6 5.7 Other 3.7 2.8 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Reliance on tourist trade:
Wales% UK Average Directly reliant on tourist trade 15.4 8.3 Indirectly reliant on tourist trade 18.9 11.6 Not reliant on tourist trade 65.7 80.1
The Welsh Language and SMEs 3. The Federation of Small Businesses’position regarding strengthening the language in SMEs is that we do not believe that it would be a positive move to try and strengthen the language through further legislation for these businesses, and in fact during our consultation with our membership we feel that we have evidence to show that it would actually be detrimental to the language itself, as well as having a potentially negative impact on SMEs. 4. The reality is that the vast majority of businesses in Wales are micro businesses; indeed 27% of FSB member businesses in Wales are home-based. This could mean that additional legislation would turn bilingualism in business from a potential competitive edge to a negative burden. If further legislation is only going to be targeting larger public service providers, then a dialogue needs to be opened between government and SMEs, asking how we strengthen the relationship between the majority of businesses in Wales and the Welsh language. 5. A FSB Wales survey earlier this year found that 28% of those surveyed were able to deal with customers/each other in Welsh, and 12% were using bilingual signs/literature, but only 1% was part of a language scheme. Add to this is the fact that 66% responded that they were not aware of the services oVered by the Welsh Language Board or Mentrau Iaith, and there is perhaps a lot of untapped potential for use of Welsh in business. 6. We would welcome support for SMEs which encourages use of the Welsh language in business, as only 11% of businesses noted government legislation as the single measure most likely to generate use of Welsh. 15% noted financial incentives, 16% chose practical support and guidance, and a vast majority of 59%, chose customer demand as the single measure most likely to generate use of Welsh in their business. 7. FSB statistics clearly show that business will respond to customers more than legislation, and so an increase in demand will naturally lead to increased use of the Welsh language. 8. There needs to be better dialogue on the use of Welsh in business so far, as small businesses often report particular practical problems with regard to being able to function bilingually, including finding bilingual staV. We will continue to positively work with the Welsh Language Board, and have supported the approach that they had adopted with regard to engaging and supporting small businesses with the use of Welsh, to whatever extent a small business felt appropriate. There does seem a lot of work still to do to take advantage of the good will and build on the use of Welsh that is already happening in businesses. 9. Having said this, it has come to the attention of the FSB that the Mentrau Iaith no longer have a role to play in the development of bilingualism within business. Private sector involvement is now the work of the Welsh Language Board. Traditionally, the Mentrau Iaith have helped support businesses, for example speaking at National Assembly business support events and workshops, and working with individual businesses. Arguably the Mentrau Iaith are in a much stronger position to increase local small business’use of bilingualism than the Welsh Language Board. 10. The Mentrau Iaith work within the communities of each Local Authority and have strong links with local businesses, most of whom will be SMEs. While the Welsh Language Board have a role to play on a Wales level, dealing with larger companies, the Mentrau Iaith are arguably much more equipped to deal with local SMEs. 11. The Business Grant from the Welsh Language Board will cease after March 09. This grant helped businesses increase bilingualism. The FSB is concerned with how quickly and quietly this grant has been phased out. This grant helped businesses with the cost of signs and materials for businesses up to a value of £1,000. This has always been a popular grant, despite a significant proportion of businesses being unaware of its existence. This grant would benefit SMEs, and in particular retail premises, which are visible throughout towns and villages across Wales. The grant, if properly supported, could increase the use of Welsh in business. This, along with practical support by the Welsh Language Board and the Mentrau Iaith, would encourage SMEs to adopt bilingualism. 12. Businesses which access the Welsh Government’s FS4B programme should be advised of the help that is available to them to increase bilingualism. In the past, businesses have not been made aware of the help available. Often start-up businesses would purchase English-only signs without realising it would not cost any extra to buy bilingual signs with the use of the Business Grant. Businesses often overlook the Welsh language, not because they are against the language, but because it isn’t a main priority when establishing a business. Increasing the use of Welsh in business should be a part of mainstream business advice to ensure that businesses are aware of the benefits of bilingualism and the help available. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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13. We would welcome research into the potential economic benefits of using Welsh in SMEs, there has been anecdotal evidence that use of Welsh can boost business, but no current statistics which prove to business that it is beneficial to use Welsh in business. The statistics that are available are years out of date. If the Welsh Government is serious about increasing the use of Welsh in business, then evidence is needed to highlight business advantage and therefore increase motivation with regard to bilingualism in business. 14. Following the opportunity to discuss these issues with the Welsh Assembly Government Minister for Heritage we were encouraged by the reassurances given that SMEs will not be compelled to function bilingually through legislation. The FSB in Wales look forward to working with the Welsh Language Board and the Welsh Assembly Government to find ways of encouraging Welsh in Business. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Government of Catalonia Executive Summary On Wednesday 15 March 2009 the Head of the Delegation of the Government of Catalonia to the United Kingdom received an invitation letter, from the Welsh AVairs Committee Assistant, to submit evidence on behalf of the Government of Catalonia on the following areas: I. Legal framework for the Catalan language and a overview of the Generalitat12 of Catalonia’s responsibilities in this area. II. Examples of initiatives through which the Catalan government promotes Catalan language among public, private and third sector III. Good practices: Agreement between the Government of Catalonia and major mobile phone manufacturers and operators to introduce Catalan in the menus of their terminals. IV. Other facts and initiatives of interest
I. The Legal Framework 1. The revised Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia13 (hereinafter referred to as the SAC) is the basic institutional regulations for Catalonia. It defines the rights and obligations of the citizens of Catalonia, the political institutions of the Catalan nationality,their responsibilities and relations with the Spanish State and the financing of the Government of Catalonia. This Law was passed by both, the Catalan and the Spanish Parliaments and approved in referendum by the citizens of Catalonia on 18 June 2006 and substitutes the Statute of Sau, which dated from 1979. The Statute of Autonomy says: Article 110. Exclusive Powers 1. In matters in which the Generalitat14 has exclusive power,(it means that) legislative power, regulatory power and the executive function correspond fully to the Generalitat. The exercise of these powers and functions, by means of which it may establish its own policies, is the exclusive right of the Generalitat. Article 143. Catalonia’s Own Language 1. The Generalitat of Catalonia has exclusive power over the matter of Catalonia’s own language. This power includes, in any case, determination of the scope, uses and legal eVects of its oYcial status, and also the linguistic normalisation of Catalan. Article 6: ”Catalonia’s Own Language and OYcial Languages 1. Catalonia’s own language is Catalan. As such, Catalan is the language of normal and preferential use in Public Administration bodies and in the public media of Catalonia, and is also the language of normal use for teaching and learning in the education system”. 2. Catalan is the oYcial language of Catalonia, together with Castilian, the oYcial language of the Spanish State. All persons have the right to use the two oYcial languages and citizens of Catalonia have the right and the duty to know them. The public authorities of Catalonia shall establish the necessary measures to enable the exercise of these rights and the fulfilment of this duty. In keeping with the provisions of Article 32, there shall be no discrimination on the basis of use of either of the two languages.
12 The Generalitat is the institution through which the self-government of Catalonia is politically organised (President, Parliament and Government of Catalonia) 13 The Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia is the basic institutional regulations for Catalonia. It defines the rights and obligations of the citizens of Catalonia, the political institutions of the Catalan nationality, their competences and relations with the Spanish State and the financing of the Government of Catalonia. This Law was approved in referendum by the citizens of Catalonia on 18 June 2006 and substitutes the Statute of Sau, which dated from 1979 http://www.parlament.cat/porteso/ estatut/estatut angles 100506.pdf. 14 The Generalitat is the institution through wich the self-government of Catalonia is politically organised. It consists of the President, the Parliament and the Government of Catalonia. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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3. The Generalitat and the State shall undertake the necessary measures to obtain oYcial status for Catalan within the European Union and its presence and use in international organisations and in international treaties of cultural or linguistic content. 4. The Generalitat shall promote communication and cooperation with the other communities and territories that share a linguistic heritage with Catalonia. To this end, the Generalitat and the State may, as appropriate, sign agreements, treaties, and other collaboration instruments for the promotion and external dissemination of Catalan. Article 33: 5. The citizens of Catalonia have the right to communicate in writing in Catalan with the constitutional entities and with the State wide jurisdictional bodies, in accordance with the procedures established by the corresponding legislation. These institutions shall attend to and process written communications in Catalan, which shall have in all cases, full legal validity. Article 34. Linguistic Rights of Consumers and Users Each individual, in his or her capacity as user or consumer of goods, products and services, has the right to be attended orally or in writing in the oYcial language of his or her choice. Bodies, companies and establishments that are open to the public in Catalonia are bound by the obligation of linguistic availability within the terms established by law. Article 35. Linguistic Rights in the Field of Education 1. Each individual has the right to receive an education in Catalan, as established in this Estatut. Catalan shall be used as the teaching and learning language for university and non-university education. 2. Pupils have the right to receive an education in Catalan at the non-university level. They also have the right and obligation to have a suYcient oral and written knowledge of Catalan and Castilian upon completing compulsory education, whatever their habitual language of use when starting their education. The Catalan and Castilian languages shall be suYciently represented in the curricula. 3. Pupils have the right not to be separated into centres or diVerent class groups on the basis of their habitual language of use. 4. Those pupils who join the school system in Catalonia at a later age than normal school starting age have the right to receive special linguistic support if their lack of comprehension skills makes it diYcult for them to pursue their education normally. 5. The teaching staV and pupils of universities have the right to express themselves, orally and in writing, in the oYcial language of their choice. Article 50. Promotion and Dissemination of Catalan 1. The public authorities shall protect the Catalan language in all fields and sectors and shall foment its knowledge, use and dissemination. These principles shall also be applied to Aranese. 2. Government, universities and higher education institutions, in their respective powers, shall adopt the relevant measures to guarantee the use of the Catalan language in all teaching, administrative and research activities. 3. Policies for the promotion of the Catalan language shall be spread to the whole of the State, the European Union and the rest of the world. 4. The public authorities shall take steps to ensure that the information contained on labels, packaging and instructions for use of products distributed in Catalonia are also printed in Catalan. 5. The Generalitat, the local administration and other public corporations in Catalonia, the institutions and companies answerable to them and the franchisees of their services, shall use Catalan for their internal proceedings and for relations among themselves. They shall also use it in communications and notifications addressed to natural or legal persons resident in Catalonia, without prejudice to citizen rights to receive them in Castilian should they ask for this. 6. The public authorities shall guarantee the use of Catalan sign language and conditions of equality for deaf people who chooses to use this language, which shall be the subject of education, protection and respect. 7. The State, in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution, shall support the application of the principles stated in this Article. Instruments for coordination and, where necessary, combined action for improved eYcacy, shall be established. Article 102. Judicial and Other StaV in the Employ of the Administration of Justice in Catalonia 1. Magistrates, judges and public prosecutors who occupy a post in Catalonia shall prove an adequate and suYcient knowledge of Catalan to ensure the linguistic rights of the citizens, in the form and within the scope determined by law. 2. Magistrates, judges and public prosecutors who occupy a post in Catalonia shall prove a suYcient knowledge of Catalan law in the form and within the scope determined by law. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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3. In all cases, suYcient knowledge of the Catalan language and law shall be specifically and uniquely evaluated for the award of a post in the corresponding transfer competitions. 4. StaV in the service of the Administration of Justice and the OYce of the Public Prosecutor in Catalonia must demonstrate an adequate and suYcient knowledge of both oYcial languages that qualifies them to perform the functions of their position or post. 2. Pre-existing language legislation: Language Policy Act 1/199815 dated 7 January. This Act built on previous legislation and established that the Generalitat, local government and other public bodies in Catalonia together with institutions and companies dependent on them and operators who have been awarded services contracts by them must use Catalan in their internal operations and in relations between each other, and must also normally use the language in communications and notices directed at persons resident in the area where Catalan is spoken. 3. The adoption of Catalan as the habitual language in the public sector has thus had a direct impact on the spread of its social use. The progressive increase in the powers of the Generalitat and of all other Catalan administrations together with their growing influence on diVerent aspects of the daily life of the public have given a major boost to the normalisation of knowledge and use of Catalan. 4. The socioeconomic field is the one with the greatest impact on the rhythms of contemporary societies. The Language Policy Act set out some general regulations for the use of Catalan in economic aVairs. This meant that the world of work and business became crucial in the process of recovering the Catalan language. 5. The regulations for the use of Catalan in the socioeconomic sector provided for by the Language Policy Act are set out in article 15 and chapter five of the Act (art. 30 to 36): — Article 15 regulates civil and commercial documents and states that the parties must agree on the language used to write them. In the case of standard form contracts or similar, they must be immediately available to customers in Catalan and Spanish in the form of separate copies. — Articles 30 to 33 cover the socioeconomic activities of companies whether public or private, and lay down a series of duties depending on the type of company with respect to signage, labelling, invoices and customer care. — Article 34 specifically regulates labelling and states for which products it must be at least in Catalan. — Finally, articles 35 and 36 cover advertising and professional and employment activities respectively. 6. The regulations for the use of Catalan and Aranese in the socioeconomic sphere which are set out in the Consumers’ Statute Act, to be subsequently reasserted and expanded in the Language Policy Act, are contained in its articles 26, 27 and 28, which essentially state that: — Direct attention to the public. Companies that oVer services in the territorial area of Catalonia must be able to deal with their customers when the latter express themselves in either of the oYcial languages of Catalonia (article 27). — Documents. Standard form contracts with standard clauses or general terms and conditions, such as those used by finance companies, insurance carriers, water, gas, electricity or telephony utility companies and any other similar ones, must be immediately available to customers in Catalan and Spanish in the form of separate copies. Any interested party has the right to receive the documentation relating to the abovementioned contracts in Catalan, such as bills and other communications that derive from them (article 26.b). 7. Article 29.f of the Consumers’ Statute Act states that “infringing the language rights of consumers which are recognised by this Act or impeding the exercise thereof” is considered to be an oVence in terms of the defence of consumers. System of oVences and penalties: Chapter IV of the Consumers’ Statute Act deals with the language rights of consumers, while chapter V sets out the system of oVences and penalties.
II. Examples of Initiatives through which the Catalan Government Promotes Catalan Language among Public,Private and Third Sector 9. Although the Catalan language is co-oYcial in several territories where the language is spoken, is at present (with the Andorran exception) the most important and consolidated non-oYcial language in a state on the continent of Europe. It extends over an area of 68,000 km2 inhabited by 13,254,100 people, and according to an estimate made on the basis of the most recent survey carried out simultaneously throughout the territories which make up the Catalan linguistic area, it is spoken by 9,118,882 people and understood by 11,011,168.
15 http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/Llengcat/menuitem.df5fba67cac781e7a129d410b0c0e1a0/?vgnextoid%d287f9465V61 110VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCRD&vgnextchannel%d287f9465V61110VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCRD Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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10. For most of the last three centuries the Catalan language has been either banned or its public use has been widely discouraged. The 21st century looks promising but it is a period with problems in many areas of use and, in addition, is confronted by the challenges posed by intense worldwide language contact brought about by the establishment of a new global economic and communicative situation and by large population movements. 11. As a result, both the action of the Government of Catalonia and the activities of the other administrations with a presence in Catalonia need to serve to promote a system of language coexistence in the public sphere which gives eVect to the respect for language rights contained in the prevailing legislative framework and which guarantees the integration of immigrants. 12. The purpose of this policy is to reconcile two objectives, neither of which can be given up: ensuring that Catalan becomes (and not to a lesser extent than Spanish) a common language for social cohesion, shared by all, and that everyone, no matter what their habitual language may be, can take part in public life, exercise their rights under equal conditions and maintain satisfactory intercultural relations. These goals need to be achieved with a guarantee of the absence of language discrimination and in the firm belief that advances in knowledge and use of Catalan should not be seen as a goal which entails a decline in Spanish, and nor should Spanish be seen as an obstacle to the consolidation of Catalan. 13. The two strategic lines of the Language Policy Plan are as follows: — To foster the social use of Catalan. — To make language policy into a cross-cutting public policy. 14. Fostering the social use of Catalan remains the great challenge in language policy, and it involves a number of objectives: augmenting knowledge of Catalan among the adult population of Catalonia (especially in the case of new immigrants) against a background of fostering the learning of the languages which are most relevant for the social advancement of people; increasing the association of positive values with the use of Catalan as a modern and useful language; and facilitating the use of Catalan, especially by making available language tools and resources to companies and the public at large which make it easier to communicate in Catalan and provide language users with a sense of security. 15. Then making language policy into a cross-cutting public policy is an essential approach when it comes to mapping out and implementing actions which make it possible to foster the social use of Catalan in each sector of activity. In this respect the Plan singles out the fields of employment (especially in hotels and food services, shops, home care and health), justice and new immigrants as priority action areas. 16. Although there is a legal framework in place, the Catalan Language is mainly promoted in the private sector by consensus and collaboration. The introduction of services and information in Catalan is being considered by most companies as a business opportunity that give them a competitive advantage over their competitors. 17. Key examples of collaboration and consensus: The major mobile manufacturers and network operators signed an agreement in 2007 with the Government of Catalonia by which they commited themselves to gradually introduce Catalan in their devices and customer services (see below). In February 2009, the Government of Catalonia signed an agreement with Microsoft Corporation for developing software tools for education purposes in Catalan. Furthermore, in February 2009, the Government of Catalonia, alongside with the Basque and Galician governments awarded Microsoft Corporation for launching the multilingual versions of Windows Vista and Microsoft OYce 2007 in Catalan, Basque and Galician. Finally, another example of such agreements would be the one signed with the Catalan Trade Confederation in January 2009 for the collaborative implementation of the governmental linguistic policies in the field of trade and tourism.
III. Good Practice:Agreement between the Government of Catalonia and Major Mobile Phone Manufacturers and Operators to Introduce Catalan in the Menus of their Terminals 18. Due to the importance of information and communication technologies for the future of the language, article 29 of the Language Policy Act lays down that the Catalan Government must put in place suitable measures to foster, drive and promote: — Research, production and marketing of all types of products in Catalan connected with language industries, such as speech recognition systems, machine translators and so on. — The production, distribution and marketing of software in Catalan and the translation if necessary of such products into Catalan. — The presence of products and information in Catalan on telematic information networks.
YOUR MOBILE.CAT CAMPAIGN (EL TEU MOBIL.CAT) 19. ”Elteumobil.cat“16 is the name of the campaign being run by the Secretariat for Telecommunications and the Information Society (STIS), the Department of Governance and Public Administration and the Language Policy Secretariat (LPS) in the Government of the Generalitat to promote mobile telephony in Catalan. Elteumobil.cat informs consumers about which terminals are currently available in Catalan and
16 www.elteumobil.cat Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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through which operators they can be acquired. It also provides information about which Generalitat of Catalonia and Catalan Radio and Television Corporation interactive services and applications can be used with a mobile phone.
20. The Elteumobil.cat campaign grew out of an agreement signed in 2007 between the Department of Governance and Public Administration, mobile phone manufacturers Nokia, Motorola, Alcatel and Sony Ericsson and operators Movistar, Vodafone, Orange and Yoigo. Since then, more manufacturers and operators have signed the agreement.
21. Under the terms of the agreement, the manufacturers undertake to progressively include Catalan in the menus of their terminals, while the operators agree to make the presence of Catalan a requirement that the manufacturers must meet in order to gain approval for terminals and their sale to the public. Operators also ensure that any written or oral communication with their subscribers can be made in Catalan, in compliance with the law.
Manufacturers 22. At the begining of 2008 there were thirty-three registered terminals, in March 2009 the number of registered terminals reached 79 from seven manufacturers (Alcatel, Blackberry, HTC, Motorola, Nokia, Samsung, Sony Ericsson) working with six operators (Eroski, Movistar, Orange, Vodafone, Yoigo, free mobile) The campaign has been so successful that the first terminal with Windows Mobile 6.0 in Catalan was brought out for the 3GSM Congress in 2008; it is to be an HTC s710 for Orange. Furthermore, those using a Blackberry terminal in the UK or elsewhere are also able to select the Catalan language in the settings of most of their terminals.
Table 1
TERMINALS IN CATALAN BY MANUFACTURER
Manufacturer In Catalan Alcatel 5 Blackberry 10 HTC 2 Motorola 12 Nokia 25 Samsung 10 Sony Ericsson 15
TOTAL 79 Source: www.elteumobil.cat
Operators: 23. The agreement signed with the operators to promote mobile telephony in Catalan sets out:
— A commitment to promote Catalan being a language option on menus and applications as one of the basic requirements for terminals when placing orders with manufacturing companies.
— The operator companies undertake to carry out campaigns as part of their subscriber communications to publicise the existence of terminals in Catalan. They are also to oVer their customers the chance to renew or replace mobiles which do not feature Catalan by ones which do or to acquire mobiles which have a Catalan language option by putting in place specific commercial policies to that end (Vodafone, Orange and Movistar).
— The operator companies undertake to indicate clearly which terminals include Catalan in any form of advertising medium, at points of sale and on their websites.
— The operator companies will ensure that any written or oral communication with their subscribers can be made in Catalan, in compliance with the provisions of articles 15.3, 31 and 32.1 of the Language Policy Act and articles 26.b and 27 of the Consumers’ Statute Act 3/1993, dated 5 March, concerning the right to be attended in either of the two oYcial languages of Catalonia. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Table 2 TERMINALS IN CATALAN BY OPERATOR
Operator In Catalan Eroski 2 Movistar 50 Orange 13 Vodafone 22 Yoigo 9 Free mobile 17 Source: www.elteumobil.cat IV. OTHER FACTS AND INITIATIVES OF INTEREST Who else is backing Catalan?
Websites Google, Blogger, Yahoo, Ikea, British Tourist Board, Easyjet, Ryanair, the Scottish Parliament, Nestle´, Wikipedia, McDonald’s… Internet browsers Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, Safari (Mac OSX), Opera. Terrestrial Digital Sony, Sanyo. Television Receivers GPS Tom Tom, Garmin, Nav4all Operating Systems Windows Vista, Windows Mobile, GNU/Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora, Redhat, Suse, Debian). Printers Hewlett Packard, Epson, Xerox. Wap services Orange World
.cat, an exclusive domain to identify Catalan 24. In September 2005, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN), based in California, approved the establishment of the Internet domain .cat which identifies Catalan culture and language on the internet. More than 35.00017 domains have been registered and main search engines list moret han 4,000,00018 web documents under the .cat domain. The .cat domain is the first and only domain in the world that identifies a specific language and culture on the internet. Some examples: www.google.cat , www.mcdonalds.cat , www.microsoft.cat
Memorandum submitted by Bedwyr GriYths To sustain Welsh as a living language, it has to be more than just a language of the home and classroom; it needs to be used in our communities. The Welsh language faces extinction by the end of the century unless it is given help to survive, the United Nations warned on the 19 February. UNESCO, the UN’s cultural and educational arm, classified Welsh as “unsafe” in its Atlas of World Languages in Danger. The Assembly government is moving in the right direction, and that is a reflection of the desire among the people of Wales to see the language flourish. We should debate and legislate in the Assembly on the way forward in a mature and reasonable way and not to use the language as a political football. Development of cross-party consensus on the language, dating back to the 1980s, has been invaluable for Welsh to grow. Bilingualism is too costly or will deter business some claim, but look at the evidence across Europe . Look at Spain for example. It’s no accident that the two areas with the strongest requirements for private companies—Catalonia and Basque—are the most successful economically among the communities of lesser spoken languages. And Quebec in Canada is another example, Montreal is a powerhouse of the North American economic sector. They have far more stringent legislation with regard to language than Wales has. Are these areas successful because of language laws? No but they are not failing because of these laws. If some say it excludes those who are not bilingual, it is for that very reason why children up to 14 are required to learn both languages. The demand for Welsh medium education is outstripping supply and it is crucial to increase proper bilingual education so that no child will be left behind and all children leave school able to communicate in both languages in future. If Welsh wasn’t making any impact then reservations on compulsion would arise but the fact that the 40% of children in Wales between the ages of 3 to 16 compulsory school years are fluent in Welsh and that the language is taking oV shows the success of Welsh language teaching, but more needs to be done.
17 6 February 2009—Fundacio´ PuntCat. 18 7 Febraury 2008—Catalan, a business opportunity. Government of Catalonia. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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This is simply about people’s rights. If you want to conduct something in English of course you are entitled to do that. However if you would like to speak Welsh you always have to ask or people are unsure who to ask and other such problems. So new legislation would I hope ensure that national bodies and a small sector of the private sector have a Welsh language service is available if you wish to use it. We are not talking about long, complicated oYcial forms, but to be able to converse one to one. We are not talking about small or medium businesses but those large national companies or companies that receive large sums of money from the taxpayers should deal with their customers in their chosen language. There are practical things that need to be done like making sure the Welsh language telephone service line is seen next to the main English language service line, because if the two are separate it will be diYcult for people to remember it. The Welsh Assembly Government should use this opportunity and see it a something positive and progressive rather than something negative. The Welsh language and its continuing revival is something that everyone in Wales can be rightfully proud of, regardless of whether or not they can speak the language. The fact that legislative powers over the it will now be coming to Wales is another important step forward. I am optimistic that thanks to this and the eVorts of the people of Wales, Welsh, as a vibrant and widely spoken language will be there for future generations of all the people of Wales to proudly embrace. February 2009
Memorandum submitted by The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales is pleased to have the opportunity to reply to the consultation on this proposed Legislative Competence Order (LCO). Unfortunately, the very short notice received from the Welsh AVairs Committee in their consultation meant we were, unable to reply; we hope nevertheless that our views will now be able to be taken into account. The Institute of Chartered Accountants is the largest professional accountancy body in Europe with over 132,000 members working across every single economic sector—more than 3,000 of them in Wales. The Institute is an active member of Business Wales and the Business Partnership Council, and most of our members either advise or run small and medium sized businesses; in fact, evidence suggests that over 80% of businesses in Wales use the services of a chartered accountant. By drawing on their collective experience, the Institute is well placed to act as a barometer for the views of the private sector. Our members are active in more than 160 countries worldwide, working with governments, regulators and industry to maintain the highest standards.
Introduction:The Legitimate Role of the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government In commenting on this LCO, we first of all wish to endorse the principle that it is appropriate for the National Assembly to have powers to legislate on issues relating to the use of the Welsh language in Wales. We agree with the view that legislation that determines the accessibility of information to Welsh citizens on public and quasi-public services in Wales should be framed by the National Assembly for Wales rather than by Westminster. However, we believe strongly that there needs to be a common-sense approach to the introduction of legislation pertaining to the Welsh language that takes note of the need for Wales to be a competitive nation. The role of the Welsh Assembly Government in ensuring that legislative proposals are proportionate and appropriate is crucial.
The Welsh Language,Legislation and the Private Sector We note that the intention of the LCO is that it should not enable the Assembly to make legislation that applies to the private sector in general, and that the competence is restricted to a range of organisations as outlined in the proposed Matter 20.1. We are concerned that there is a desire to expand the Matter in respect of business at some stage in the future and we are wary of the diYculties that this may place on businesses that trade in Wales. Therefore, we wish to put on record in the strongest possible terms our view that, while we broadly support the Welsh Language Act and believe it is important for the Welsh public to be able to access public services in the medium of either Welsh or English according to their preference, we would strenuously oppose any attempt to extend legislative requirements for the provision of bilingual services to the private sector. We have always argued that it is essential that devolution does not add to the costs of doing business in Wales and believe that imposing statutory responsibilities on businesses to provide services bilingually would be an unfair and expensive burden as well as being hugely counter-productive. Unlike the services of the local Council or of the Local Health Board, consumers who feel their bank or building society does not give suYcient weight to the Welsh language can go elsewhere, and the Government must not try to impose something which the market does not value. For many Welsh businesses (particularly those which are outward looking) the Welsh language is of relatively minor importance—a fact underlined Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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by the Future Skills Wales, 2003, which showed that employers rated Welsh language skills as one of the two least important generic skills19 and that only 6% of all residents interviewed spoke Welsh as the first- language in the home.20 We also believe that there is a common misperception of the Basque experience as outlined by the Minister speaking in the National Assembly who claimed that “there is no suggestion that introducing quite strict and aYrmative language laws in the Basque Country and Catalonia has had any negative impact on the economic success of those areas. Indeed entirely to the contrary, those are the most prosperous parts of Spain”. The head of the Basque country’s UGT (Union of General Workers) in a press interview in May 2007 suggested that the fact that the Basque economy had been growing more slowly than other autonomous regions of Spain could in part be attributed to: “in many work places, the imposition of the Basque language (the spread of which we support, but without compulsion [which! leads thousands of graduates to seek work outside. Politicians must understand that we can not impose anything.”21 We believe that a more rigorous assessment is required of the policies that will support and enhance the use of the Welsh language in Wales, based on a far more detailed understanding of the experience of linguistically diverse countries and regions across the world.
Specific Issues within the LCO While the LCO in general terms appears to be suYciently tightly drawn to exclude the Assembly using the powers to impose duties on the bulk of the private sector, there are two specific areas to which we wish to draw attention. The more important of these concerns within the scope of the potential legislation of the inclusion of “persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year” Noting that since “services to the public ”could include any service (for example, that provided by a high- street accountant, a bank, or an insurance company), we are concerned with this formulation for three reasons. Firstly, while we note that the Welsh Assembly Government’s explanatory memorandum (para. 37) states that: “Persons who receive money directly or indirectly from the Assembly, the Welsh Ministers, the UK Parliament, Ministers of the Crown or any of the European Institutions by way of payment for services or goods supplied by them will not be included under paragraph (e) because of having received those monies.” this is not apparent from the text of the LCO itself and therefore might not be legally enforceable. Secondly, despite the claim of the Minister that it was not the intention to use this clause to enforce obligations on companies receiving, for example, grant assistance to undertake job creating capital investment, this would appear specifically to be within the scope of the Assembly’s legislative power, where the business concerned was providing services to the public. Thirdly, the clause would appear very definitely to apply to any organisation in receipt of grant funding from the EU Convergence or Competitiveness Programmes managed by the Welsh Assembly Government While few, if any, private sector organisations are likely to be in receipt of grants of this size, many voluntary sector organisations will be. We are therefore surprised by the sentence in the explanatory statement that: “A full regulatory impact assessment has not been prepared as no impact on the private or voluntary sector is foreseen” unless, of course, the view is being taken that as this is only a LCO, it will not in itself result in any impacts unless and until the Assembly frames a measure. We might also remark that the expected Measure will certainly have an impact on some parts of the private sector, such as telecommunications providers. We would propose that the clause providing for the inclusion of “persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year” needs redrafting to remove some of these ambiguities. The second specific area is the inclusion of: “persons who oversee the regulation of a profession, industry or other similar sphere of activity”. We would note that this would appear to include this Institute, and probably other global professional bodies having headquarters elsewhere than Wales. While we are willing to discuss with the Welsh Assembly Government whether or not it is reasonable to include bodies such as ourselves within the scope of any Measure, we would wish to point out that this would potentially involve significant additional costs on the
19 Generic Skills Survey, Page 27, Table 2.1 20 Ibid., page 73 21 El Correo Digital 6 de mayo de 2007 http://www.elcorreodigital.com/vizcaya/prensa/20070506/economia viz/miles- profesionales-abandonan-euskadi 20070506.html Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Institute (which would have to be met by our Members). We would be extremely concerned if this clause was used to require us, for example, to make provision for our examinations to be set and marked in Welsh as well as in English for candidates based in Wales.
Conclusion This summarises our views on the LCO, and we hope that you will be able to clarify the position regarding “persons who oversee the regulation of a profession….” as well as take our views into account before proceeding with the Order. April 2009
Memorandum submitted by Rt Hon Peter Hain MP on behalf of Ronald and Pauline King Further to my recent phone call to your oYce, I have enclosed a short document in which I have set out my concern and some arguments relating to the above order in which the Assembly Government is looking for further legal powers to compel wider use of Welsh. Both my wife and I believe it is entirely misguided and that it has the potential to cause an unwelcome split in our society. I may add that my wife, who was born in Neath, is a fluent speaker of Welsh and a graduate in English of Swansea University. In my case, I was born in CardiV but do not speak Welsh. I am a graduate in mathematics and physics and have now reached the age of 81. Clearly, our roots are in this country but we do not wish to see it suVer the damage that may come from divisions based on language. The essence of our position is that we support encouragement of Welsh—but not enforcement of it. We have observed that many notices are now in both languages and that first place is increasingly being given to Welsh. It does appear as if some instruction (not made public) has been given for this priority. It is very apparent in the main streets and shops of both Neath and CardiV, for example, that very little Welsh (if any) is heard. My sister, in CardiV, recently lost her husband and on making a necessary, oYcial, phone call was addressed in Welsh and invited to press an appropriate button if she wished to speak English! Friends of mine feel that these changes are treating the large majority of Welsh people, whose mother tongue is English after all, as though they were not truly Welsh. However, my wife will be sending a copy in Welsh to our A.M. setting out our views on the matter of this LCO. I cannot resist the thought that applying for this LCO, together with other LCOs, is a barely covert move to assist the political ambitions of those who are seeking independence and that people are being manipulated by talk of “identity” and “culture”. Obviously,devolution and independence are quite diVerent. Wales, to be a better country, must remain part of the UK—in my estimation. May my wife and I convey our very best wishes to you together with our thanks for all the hard work you have undertaken on behalf of the people of Neath. There is a grave threat to the future wellbeing of Wales if additional legal powers relating to the language go ahead. Encouragement of Welsh use is admirable but “promotion” of it through legal enforcement is not—particularly in extending it to “public service” businesses and parts of the private sector. The attention given to adding compulsion in areas where Welsh speakers are in a small minority will lead, if successful, to bitter division and be counter-productive to the stated political aim of One Wales. One Britain or One World would be higher aspirations. The lessons of world disputes which arise from labelling people should be taken onboard. For example, national, tribal, religious, political, racial, cultural, wealth, class, skin colour and linguistic group diVerences have contributed, at times, to major world problems. Moves to extend or emphasise any one of these, without compelling reason for such actions, will eventually only add more strife. It has to be remembered that a language is a set of audio or visual symbols only—it is the vehicle for communicating thoughts. Obviously, the thoughts matter far more than the symbols which represent them. Some sets of symbols communicate better and more elegantly than others. In arithmetic, Roman numerals and those we now use in every day calculations illustrate this. It is pure accident of birth where one is born and which language is one’s mother tongue. Nevertheless, people born in modern Wales, and hence Britain, are very fortunate in the world context of life’s hardships. In this respect, it is acknowledged that the devolved Welsh Assembly Government is bringing additional benefits to Wales. However, it is worth noting that when Albert Einstein was asked to change from being Swiss to German he pointed out the irrelevance of putting great store on trumpeting nationality. It has to be underlined that a large majority of people born in Wales do not speak Welsh at all. It is deduced that there are, these days, no adult monolingual speakers of Welsh (see pages 644–645 of “A History of Wales” by Dr. John Davies—a book described by presiding oYcer Lord Dafydd Elis Thomas as “The greatest book of Welsh History ever written”). This raises a number of important questions regarding the condition of Welsh society if, for instance, the percentage of Welsh speakers were increased significantly as a result of obtaining new extra powers. 1. The most important query of all follows. Would additional law in relation to language compliance, achieving the outcome of noticeably more Welsh, bring about a healthier, more prosperous Wales Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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and increase wellbeing and harmony in its people? Experience from the first world, let alone a continent like Africa, would suggest the opposite. Consideration of events in Canada, Spain, Belgium and Latvia, supports a view that point to a probability of harmful disputes, disagreement and widespread division. 2. In the present diYcult financial circumstances of the downturn, can an annual expenditure £13 million on promoting the Welsh language be justified? The Welsh Assembly website gives this figure for its expenditure. The people of Wales are far more concerned about health, education and jobs. It leads also to reflection on those businesses which will be covered by compliance under the Legislative Competence Order. 3. Who pays the additional costs incurred by organisations (private or public) in compelling promotion of the language? Clearly, it must be borne by the taxpayer, or the customers and clients using the services oVered. In the case of the private sector, this could result in additions to prices. In neither case is this a satisfactory, or justifiable burden, that would be imposed on Welsh people. 4. As a consequence of strictly carrying out existing law, there is an enormous duplication of printed material leading to an unfortunate waste of much money and precious natural resources. How can it be justified to ask for more law which will inevitably add further to loss of that which desperately needs husbanding? 5. In the Senedd, it is noticed that the Presiding OYcer and the two elected leaders of the parties which form the coalition government are bilingual. Will a bilingual qualification be a necessary requirement, rather than a preference, for appointment to the most senior posts in public organisations and those parts of the private sector which the Legislative Competence Order (LCO) seeks to include? Should this be the case, an unsupportable discrimination against Welsh people who do not speak Welsh could follow. It is indisputable that the mother tongue of a very large majority of people born in Wales is English (80% perhaps). The consequences would put Wales at serious disadvantage. Sorely needed English speaking only talent could be lost by those of high ability looking for opportunities elsewhere. It would be diYcult to recruit essentially needed skills from outside the country’s boundaries. Inward investment could be adversely aVected—Wales will always need some economic inflow as home produced wealth is insuYcient. As English is a global language, major business corporations normally have no language obstacles in many parts of the world. Insistence placed on Welsh could be a deterrent to them. 6. Is there a case for examining the meaning of “linguistic rights?” Past mistreatment of Welsh speaking people should not be viewed as a reason for overlooking the modern experience of language use in Wales. There are no news media reports of fundamental justice being denied to bilingual speakers solely on the grounds of wanting their favoured choice. The rights of the large English only speaking majority must also be protected. This is particularly clear in view of the cosmopolitan population of the country—evidenced by simple observation in the capital city CardiV (Caerdydd). 7. It is clearly advisable to give Welsh priority in signs and publications in areas where there is a majority of Welsh speaking people but, in other areas of the country, insistence on Welsh taking first place is petty and indefensible. It will lead to growing resentment and discord from the large number of those who use only English. The Senedd still has not been given the matching description of Senate. Is there a reason why equal recognition to English is missing in this instance? After all, “Assembly” is widely oYcially duplicated as “Cynulliad”. The Welsh Language Act 1993 seems adequately to safeguard Welsh speakers and the language without need for further legal intrusion. The above mentioned reference to the seat of Welsh Government seems to confirm this. Precedence given to a minority language of a country over its major one seems to ignore the majority principle of democracy. Neither a Welsh speaking nor English only political cabal must be given opportunity. There is no place for a “Plaid Cymru ond yr Iaith Gymraeg yn Gyntaf”— Party of Wales but the Welsh Language First”—if a harmonious, prosperous and healthy society is the ultimate goal. 8. In the light of the worldwide financial crisis and other major problems, is not the best path for Wales to uphold the importance of global cooperation and not to dwell on a national matter which could lead to damaging division? Benefits undoubtedly flow from unity. We have, for example, trade unions, the United Kingdom, the European Union and the United Nations. Much good can be done here and much is being done—particularly by some of the Welsh Assembly Government initiatives. Let this not be spoilt. A better use of money than that spent on the Welsh language is certainly available. Improving conditions for people is a greater priority than “promotion” of the language. More funds are needed in many areas of need. If proposed additional legal provision for Welsh is neither sought nor obtained, the laudable commitment of the Welsh Assembly Government to create a better Wales is achievable. March 2009 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Memorandum submitted by Llais Gwynedd I write on behalf of Llais Gwynedd—a political group with 13 councilors on Gwynedd Council— concerning the proposed Legislative Competence Order in Council on the Welsh Language and here is our requested reply:
1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? Yes
2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? Yes
3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? Yes. The LCO will allow Ministers from the Welsh Assembly Government, who are involved with the everyday governance of Wales to legislate on the Welsh language. The Welsh Assembly is the appropriate place to control laws with regard to Welsh language issues.
4. The extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? There have been calls for new Welsh Language legislation for over 20 years as the 1993 Welsh Language Act was not fit for purpose from its outset . Many research papers point to the popular need for further legislation across Wales as the primary way to improve provision of Welsh language services. The 2001 census shows that the number of Welsh speakers are rising due to Welsh medium education, which leads to greater demands for services across all sectors.
5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? Very little if any implications
6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? No impact identified
7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) Some cross border implications eg the market town of Oswestry in Shropshire provided a vital social, administrative and economic service to the Welsh speaking heartland of North Powys.
8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? By the Welsh Assembly that’s democratically answerable to the people of Wales. Cllr Alwyn GruVydd—Llais Gwynedd
Memorandum submitted by Councillor Alun Llewelyn First, I wish to inform you that the public is not very aware that the committee is undertaking the consultation, but I hope that it receives a worthy response. In my experience, the current Language Act has been essential in terms of allowing the people of Wales to use the language when contacting public bodies. As a county councillor who represents an area in which over 50% of the inhabitants speak Welsh (according to the 2001 census), bilingual provision is deeply appreciated. As public bodies use the Welsh language publicly, many local businesses—both large and small—have begun to use bilingual signs, use Welsh names for the business etc. It is also much easier that the use of the Welsh language by the county council (and other bodies) happens quite naturally, in line with the Act and the council’s language scheme—there is no need to argue for every individual sign or publication, as was the case previously. The Assembly’s intention to introduce a Legislative Competence Order in this field is a reasonable opportunity to expand the use of the language. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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This is important in terms of ensuring equal rights for Welsh-speakers, but also in order to create new opportunities for learners and young people who learn the language in school. It is an important step towards creating a bilingual Wales and it is appropriate that this responsibility lies with the National Assembly for Wales. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Eifion Lloyd Jones I’m writing to you regarding the recently published Welsh Assembly Government’s Welsh Language Legislative Competence Order (LCO). I fully support the principle that matters relating to the Welsh Language should be decided in the National Assembly for Wales. The passing of this LCO in its current form will give the National Assembly the necessary powers to make a real diVerence to the people of Wales who have campaigned for so long to receive the most basic of services in their own language. I hope that you appreciate that the proposed LCO is part of the agreed programme of the democratically elected Welsh Assembly Government. There is cross party consensus in the National Assembly for Wales with regard to transferring powers to legislate on the Welsh language to the National Assembly, and I urge you to support the passing of the LCO in its current form. 2 February 2009
Memorandum submitted by Mentrau Iaith Cymru Mentrau Iaith Cymru is pleased to have this opportunity to present some information to the Legislation Committee and respond to the Welsh Assembly Government’s intention to introduce further legislation on the Welsh language. Mentrau Iaith are county based third sector organisations that promote the Welsh language locally within their communities. Mentrau Iaith Cymru is an organization that facilitates working in partnership between the Mentrau Iaith. Through the proposed measure, we hope it will be possible to realise the main Welsh language commitments from the Cymru’n Un, the Welsh Assembly Government’s agenda for 2007–11 including confirmation of the Welsh Language as an oYcial language of Wales alongside English and define individuals’ linguistic rights to use the Welsh language. Mentrau Iaith Cymru support the idea that the National Assembly of Wales should have the right to legislate on Welsh language matters. The Welsh language is unique to Wales, and it makes sense for decision making on legislation on the Welsh language to take place in Wales, where there is natural understanding and expertise on the linguistic situation of Wales. It therefore follows from this that the Welsh Assembly is the place to legislate on which services the public should be able to receive bilingually. Ensuring freedom and individual rights to use the Welsh language is very important and we believe that the National Assembly of Wales should have the capacity to legislate in this field. Welsh speakers have the right to be treated equally with English speakers. There is also a need is limit the situations where Welsh speakers are being forced to speak only English, with employers for example. Mentrau Iaith Cymru are supportive to the general principle that the Legislative Competence Order should allow the Assembly to: — promote or facilitate the use of the Welsh language; — treat the Welsh and English language equally; and — ensure people have the freedom to use the Welsh language if they wish to. We welcome the content and scope of the LCO in terms of the sectors it will allow the Assembly to legislate and ensure they provide specific bilingual services to the public in Wales. It is important to remember that this is only one step forward towards creating a fully bilingual Wales. So the list of proposed sectors is too narrow in attempting to include all possible legislation of the future. So the following fields should also be included: (1) Every sector that oVers public services, the voluntary sector, specific sections of the private sector, public tender’s administrators. (2) The education sector, in order to ensure Welsh medium education to all inhabitants of Wales and access to Welsh lessons. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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(3) Economic Planning and Development. The capacity to intervene in this sector if they are aVecting the demography of Wales. The definition used for “public authorities” should include partnerships and providers of public services such as Spatial Plans. It is reasonable to also contain Children and Youth Services and Local Service Boards. There is no reason for these services to be excluded. Mentrau Iaith Cymru welcomes the principle of Matter 20.2 “Provision about or in connection with the freedom of persons wishing to use the Welsh language to do so with one”, especially if the Assembly can prevent situations that have happened in the past where Welsh speakers have been prevented from speaking together in Welsh in their workplace or with customers. There should not be any limit on people’s right to speak Welsh at all. Doing so should be considered illegal. Also there is a need is ensure Welsh speakers’ right to use the language as an active language in the workplace within the public sector. Mentrau Iaith Cymru does not think there is a reason to exclude the Crown services from conforming to the LCO. Mentrau Iaith Cymru are supportive of the content of the “Cymru’n Un” document by the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure rights to Welsh speakers, giving oYcial status to the Welsh language and creating a language commissioner. It is essential that the aims of this document are realized and for the LCO to give the Welsh Assembly Government the power it needs to legislate on such matters in order to be able to meet these aims. The LCO needs to ensure that the basic principle of legislating on matters of the Welsh Language should take place in Wales. It should also ensure that the fundamental principles of the LCO fits in with current UK and European laws to defend individuals’ human rights.
Requested comments: 1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? Yes.
2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? Yes.
3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? Yes. The LCO will allow ministers from the Welsh Assembly Government, who are involved with the everyday governance of Wales, to legislate on the Welsh language. The Welsh Assembly is the appropriate place for controlling laws with regard to Welsh language issues.
4. The extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? There have been calls for a new Welsh Language Act for over 20 years due to gaps in the 1993 Welsh Language Act. The 2001 census shows that the number of Welsh speakers is rising due to Welsh medium education, which leads to greater demands for services across all sectors. Many research papers point to the need for further legislation across Wales as the primary way to improve provision of Welsh language services.
5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? Minimal and insignificant.
6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? No impact to our knowledge.
7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) Not to our knowledge. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? Not to our knowledge. February 2009
Memorandum submitted by Merched y Wawr I write to you on behalf of Merched y Wawr, registered charity 506789, to express our views on the proposed Welsh Language LCO. We presently have more than 6,600 members who have asked us to express their views to you with respect of the future of the Welsh Language. We believe that the LCO request is in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement, and that the LCO is more appropriate than the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill. There is much demand for legislation on the matters in question, Welsh speakers often do not have equal rights as far as language issues are concerned. Some aspects fail to be included even within the stated framework, eg transport, border control including airports and the docks and public transport such as buses. We would hope that people wishing to invest and work cross-border within Wales would respect the legislation. We would also hope that this would be seen as a very positive move for the Welsh Language and in particular the culture and heritage of Wales. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Mobile Broadband Group 1. The Mobile Broadband Group (“MBG”, whose members are the UK businesses of O2, Orange, T- Mobile, Virgin Mobile, Vodafone and 3) welcomes the opportunity to provide comments on the draft Legislative Competence (Welsh Language) Order 2009. The MBG’s members serve 96% of mobile customers in Wales.22
Summary 2. The MBG strongly urges that “telecommunications services” be deleted from the Legislative Competence Order on the following grounds: — The development of communications services is vital to the economic and cultural future of Wales (and the rest of the UK). This is a central tenet of the Government’s Digital Britain strategy. Limited scarce resources should be prioritised towards work that customers value most highly,such as extending mobile broadband coverage; — The LCO has a potential impact on telecommunications customers, policy and regulation beyond Wales. We strongly believe that telecommunications policy and regulation should remain in the purview of the UK Government and Ofcom; — The LCO allows only for the treatment of the Welsh and English language on the basis of equality. Unless the LCO is amended to allow for some qualification of this absolute requirement, the measures that could subsequently flow would be disproportionate; — No impact assessment has been carried out. Although the LCO confers only competency, the impact that would flow from any Measures as a consequence of the LCO are of suYcient magnitude in relation to telecommunications services, that the Competence Order should not be granted without an impact assessment; and — The potential impact of the LCO and consequent Measures, for all sorts of practical reasons, set out more fully below, would be very costly to implement and will work against the interests of consumers in Wales.
Market Allocation of Scarce Resources 3. All telecommunications service providers, including the mobile operators, operate with limited resources for capital investment and have to make choices about how to spend those resources. At present, the clear priority being set by customers for mobile operators is to improve the coverage of third generation (3G) mobile broadband. 4. Of the UK nations, Wales already has the highest rate of adoption of mobile 3G services (20% of users) and so this is clearly a service that is valued in Wales.23 Customers are indicating that it is much more important to them to have access to the best possible telecommunications services rather than have services provided bi-lingually.
22 Page 80, Ofcom Communications Market Report—Nations and Regions, May 2008 23 Page 76, Ofcom Communications Market Report—Nations and Regions, May 2008 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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5. It is critical to the economic and cultural development of all UK regions that the provision of advanced services such as mobile broadband progresses as quickly as possible. This is a central tenet of the Government’s Digital Britain strategy. Diversion of resources to the provision bi-lingual services in Wales would arrest this progress and not give net benefits to Wales. 6. In any event it is recognised that it is far more eYcient for the supply of new services and new ways of delivering those services to be demand led—in other words determined by consumers setting market priorities through the choices they make. This also gives companies the freedom to diVerentiate their oVering by responding to the specific needs of specific market segments in a proportionate and practical way. 7. Indeed voluntary action to supply certain service elements bi-lingually is already happening. For example, some operators have produced bi-lingual signage in some Welsh stores and staV have started to wear badges that identify Welsh speakers, so that in store advice can be oVered in Welsh, if the customer so wishes. 8. The Welsh Language Society has dismissed these eVorts as tokenism. The MBG completely disagrees. These initiatives represent a significant investment in physical assets and training that promote, in a proportionate and practical way, bi-lingualism in Wales. We feel that encouragement of voluntary action would ultimately be much more beneficial for the language, telecommunications companies and their customers than legislative action. 9. All the members of the MBG are committed to the Welsh market. However, as well as selling services directly to customers, MBG members sell through a diverse network of independent retailers. 10. The MBG notes that the LCO, as set out in Matter 20.1 (h) applies to “persons providing the public with the following kinds of services or with other services which relate to any of those services”. In other words, with respect to telecommunications alone, the LCO could extend its remit to a significant number of businesses. The MBG argues that the cost of providing services bi-lingually would deter many independent service providers from competing in the Welsh market at all, very much to the detriment of consumers in Wales.
UK Telecommunications Policy and Regulation should remain in the Sole Remit of the UK Government and Ofcom 11. There are approximately 73 million active mobile subscriptions in the UK, with 84% of households having the use of at least one mobile phone. We are progressing to the point where roughly 40% of mobile users have more than one device—perhaps one for work use and one for personal use, or one device primarily for voice and one primarily for data usage (such as e-mail and Internet browsing). About 65% of subscribers use prepaid subscriptions and 35% of customers are on monthly paid contracts. 12. All the major UK mobile operators are set up to serve an itinerant customer base on a UK wide basis, as opposed to on a region by region basis. From our perspective, bi-lingual provision would mostly involve the duplication of oral and written communication for 1% of the UK customer base that potentially could use the Welsh language as opposed to the 20% of the Welsh customer base, as we do not segment networks and services provision along the boundaries of the UK’s nations. 13. Moreover mobile operators are regulated on a UK wide basis. The Universal Service Obligation is set, subject to European Directives, by the UK Government and General Conditions of Entitlement (to operate a network) are established and regulated by Ofcom. We explain below that any bi-lingual requirements would have implications for UK wide telecommunications, in that the UK Government and Ofcom could not propose regulatory measures without taking account of the impact of and proportionality of any concomitant bi-ingual requirements. 14. It is not clear what the Welsh Assembly’s expectation is with respect to the significant extra costs that would arise from bi-lingual provision—ie whether costs would be shared by all UK consumers, all Welsh consumers or just those taking advantage of Welsh language services. In any event, it is likely that it would be extremely diYcult to recover costs in a rational way from just the Welsh consumers. The most likely outcome is that costs will be borne across the UK customer base. 15. Thus it is not appropriate to devolve powers, in relation to telecommunications services, to one of the UK’s nations when the implications have a UK wide impact. 16. With respect to regulation, the General Conditions place a number of regulatory obligations on telecommunications service providers. For a number of these obligations it will be very costly to supply services bi-lingually. Take for example the following requirements: access to directory inquiries, access to a text relay service for deaf customers, access to ADR (alternative dispute resolution) and access to 999–112 services. Looking at each in turn in more detail, placing a regulatory obligation to provide access to a Welsh language Directory Enquiry (DQ) service would be unnecessary. The provision of DQ in the UK is now competitively supplied and customers are free to choose the DQ service they use and Welsh language DQ is available on 118404, provided independently of mobile operators. 17. With respect to services for deaf customers, mobile operators have, since 2004, been required to provide access to a text relay service—a system run by BT and manned by the RNID that converts speech into text and vice versa. In the last four years a negligible number of people have made use of the service. Deaf customers far prefer to use text messaging which provides an almost identical service without the need Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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for an intermediate text relay operator. Again, the MBG feels that it would not be proportionate, bearing in mind the very low demand for even a service in English, to require this service to be supplied bi-lingually. There would be significant costs of setting up and maintaining the service, even if wasn’t used. 18. A further regulatory requirement is for telecommunications providers, including mobile operators, to provide access to an ADR scheme, whereby customers that have a dispute with their provider can, on reaching deadlock, refer their case for independent resolution. There are currently two principle schemes: Otelo and CISAS. Both are based in England. Our understanding is that certain aspects of these services are available bi-lingually but not on an equal footing. The mobile operators would not be able to comply with this aspect of their regulatory obligations without incurring considerable expense. 19. Mobile operators are also required to provide access to 999–112 emergency services. Approximately 15 million calls per annum are made from mobile networks in the UK to the emergency services. The key objective for an emergency call is to handle it eYciently, establish location of the caller as quickly as possible and pass the caller to the appropriate emergency service. There is no evidence that the existing 999–112 service is compromised by an inability to handle calls for customers in Welsh. Indeed, there is a risk that the service could be compromised by having to insert a process that requires the customer to choose which language to use. In an emergency situation, this is very much a secondary consideration. 20. However, the mobile operators are planning to make a significant but diVerent investment in the 999–112 service. As a result of a suggestion from the Welsh Advisory Council on Telecommunications, the mobile operators have recently launched a project which will ultimately lead to customers being able to make an emergency call on any mobile network. This investment is expected to be particularly beneficial to less populated regions of Wales, where there may only be network coverage from one or two networks as opposed to all five. This is potentially a significant enhancement to emergency service provision in rural Wales.
The LCO gives no Room for Flexibility 21. Clause 35 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 states that “the Assembly must, in the conduct of Assembly proceedings, give eVect, so far as is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable, to the principle that the English and Welsh languages should be treated on a basis of equality.” 22. However, the draft LCO at 20.1, does not appear to give the Assembly the power or flexibility to act reasonably or appropriately. The MBG urges that such concepts are adequately reflected in the LCO at 20.1.
No Impact Assessment 23. The draft LCO states that a regulatory impact assessment has not been prepared for this Order as no impact on the private sector is foreseen. The MBG recognises that the LCO, as such, does not set a date by which bi-lingual services would have to be introduced. 24. Nevertheless, without being specific, it clearly sets out that telecommunications services and related businesses will have to introduce bi-lingual facilities. As the MBG argues in this submission, there will implications for service providers and the regulators throughout the UK. 25. It would be wholly inappropriate and contrary to regulatory best practice to pass the LCO without the preparation of even an outline impact assessment.
Practical Implications will lead to Significant Extra Costs and will Work Against Consumers in Wales 26. In the last 20 years or so mobile networks have evolved from simple voice provision into highly complex multi-media platforms for providing voice & text service, picture messaging, Internet browsing, e- mail, video on demand and mobile payment to name but a few. The network and accompanying billing system is a very complex organism. The cost, risk and time involved in making changes in one language, never mind two, is very high. 27. In order to give more detail on the practical diYculties involved, this paper breaks the topic down into the following areas: network coverage, retail, international roaming and customer services.
Network Coverage 28. Mobile networks are basically configured on a UK-wide basis. The radio spectrum is licensed and allocated by the UK authorities. Network resilience is configured for the UK (ie if one switch or switching centre is incapacitated, traYc will be routed through another). Messages sent to customers are sent in English. For example, on a misdial, an oral message such as “the number you have dialled has not been recognised, please try again” is delivered through to the handset. Or, on receipt of a voice message, the voicemail service delivers “A voice message is waiting for you” or similar. 29. No detailed work has yet been done on how bi-lingual obligations would actually be met. However, roughly speaking the choices might be: a) the customer chooses which language he or she wants to use to communicate with the network, b) the network would communicate to customers bi-lingually within Wales. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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30. Thus, under option a), if the customer chose the Welsh language, the network would deliver relevant service messages in Welsh. However, it should be noted that the customer is mobile and thus liable to stray beyond the physical boundaries of Wales, requiring the network to be configured across the UK to deliver messages bi-lingually. (It would probably be even more complicated to deliver messages to that customer in Welsh in Wales and in English in other UK regions). Under b), the network would deliver service messages in both languages, to both Welsh customers in Wales and other nationals visiting Wales. Generally speaking customers do not like overly lengthy network messages and may object to the information load being doubled.
Retail Presence 31. Mobile devices and subscriptions are sold to customers through own branded stores, independent chains such as Carphone Warehouse and Phones4U or through a network of thousands of small independent dealers. Sales can either be through physical stores or on-line. 32. Unlike the physical mobile network, it is more straightforward to design the physical stores based in Wales to oVer bi-lingual signage and information. And indeed great eVorts, as mentioned above, have been made in recent years to improve this aspect of the service on a voluntary basis. 33. There are nevertheless limitations to what is practical. Many customers like to change their handsets regularly, on average every two to three years. Approximately 26 million handsets are sold in the UK each year (and 200 million throughout the EU). There are literally dozens of models on the market at any one time and retail stores only keep a small stock of a limited range on site. 34. The market is led by a few global manufacturers such as Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Motorola, Samsung, LG and Apple. It is highly competitive and they all seek to derive economies of scale by managing inventory, as far as practical on a regional basis. Thus devices supplied within the EU are often supplied with power adapters to cover all member states and with instruction manuals written in the languages for all the 27 EU countries. 35. It would be extremely complicated to supply and manage a “Wales only” inventory for handsets in the supply chain. Were it required by law, the most likely consequence is that only a limited range of devices would be available in the Welsh market and they could be more expensive. Such an outcome would work against the interests of consumers in Wales. A situation could even arise whereby customers in Wales have to go to England to buy the model of mobile phone they want. 36. Legislation would not only aVect the mobile phone operators but also the independent dealers—the large chains and the small traders—through which mobile services are retailed to the public. It is highly likely that the compliance costs falling on the small retailers—in an already highly competitive situation—would force many to withdraw from the Welsh market.
International Roaming 37. Mobile operators, through international roaming agreements, provide voice and data services to UK based customers travelling overseas. They also provide services to the customers of overseas networks who are visiting the UK. 38. The networks communicate with both sets of customers. For example, a text message containing pricing and other information is usually sent to a UK based customer when he or she switches on a phone in a foreign country and the phone “registers” on the roaming partner’s network. 39. The infrastructure that underpins the ability for UK based customers to roam (ie have access to a local mobile network when abroad) in over 160 countries and for overseas customers to have access to local networks when in the UK is extremely complex. 40. The LCO does not go into the level of detail to describe whether it is the intention that anyone using a network in Wales, whether visiting or resident is serviced bi-lingually or whether any customer based in Wales can be serviced bi-lingually, wherever he is in the world. There may be technical constraints over what can be done with SMS (Texting), which can only accommodate 160 characters. 41. In any event, the MBG feels strongly that the additional complexity of delivering the international roaming service bi-lngually would be totally disproportionate to any potential benefits.
Customer Services 42. In addition to retail stores, the mobile operators each support their customer base through a network of telephone held desks spread throughout the nations and regions of the UK and even overseas and through web sites. 43. The web site of each operator is extremely comprehensive and content changes on a daily basis. There would be a very high cost involved in maintaining a Welsh language version of the web-site, including the ability to transact business and view bills on-line. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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44. The range of issues dealt with over the phone is also enormous—lost phones, damaged phones, billing inquiries, phone settings, phone upgrades, premium rate services, child protection to name but a few and of course a huge amount of technical support for the myriad of devices that can now be connected to a mobile network. 45. The mobile operators invest very heavily and continuously in staV training so that customer service agents are kept abreast of developments in this extremely dynamic market. 46. In aggregate, the mobile operators receive hundreds of millions of calls each year. They use traYc load management systems to direct customers to specialist teams and the least busy call centres. Thus a caller in Swansea could be put through to a call centre in Glasgow and caller in Newcastle could be directed to a call centre in CardiV. 47. As we mention above, it is our understanding that the percentage of Welsh speakers represents about 1% of the UK customer base. It is inconceivable that mobile operators could manage traYcaseYciently or maintain the levels of expertise to service a maximum of 1% of the customer base as they could for the other 99%. There would be many practical problems of ensuring that Welsh speakers were available in the right place at the right time with the right technical knowledge. There could even be legal equal opportunity barriers. It would not be right to give preference, when recruiting in Darlington, for example, to give preference to a candidate that speaks Welsh, when there are other candidates with experience more relevant to providing customer support for mobile telephony. 48. The MBG foresees that, because of these practical limitations, a Welsh language customer service line would be not be preferred by the majority of Welsh speakers and that the enormous investment that would be required would largely be wasted.
Conclusion 49. The MBG has not compiled a detailed assessment of the potential cost impact entailed in the LCO. However, we trust that it is clear on the basis of this short paper that the visible costs, across the various areas of the business, would run into millions of pounds and that there would be an impact on all UK consumers, the UK Government and Ofcom. 50. Ofcom are responsible for setting the General Conditions under which we operate and this should remain their sole responsibility, including the determination of the circumstances under which services should be required by regulation to service customers in languages other than English. 51. The proposed LCO sets a very high bar for compliance, whereby it requires the “treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality”. This is a much higher bar than, for example, the Disability Discrimination Act, which requires businesses to make “reasonable adjustments” to accommodate the needs of disabled customers. 52. It would also be completely contrary to regulatory good practice to grant the LCO without carrying out an impact assessment. 53. The mobile operators are totally committed to the Welsh market. The MBG believes, though, that there are many smaller telecommunications providers that would be deterred by such measures from oVering services in Wales at all, to the detriment of Welsh consumers. 54. With respect to mobile services, we believe that several factors would work against the interests of Welsh consumers: the extra complexity in the network, including 999 services, the potential for the choice of devices to be more limited and the very considerable practical problems of maintaining customer services in the Welsh language to the same standard as English. 55. Because of all these factors and the very high costs that the LCO could entail (and that have not been considered by the Government because of the absence of an impact assessment), the MBG strongly suggests that “telecommunication services” be deleted from the LCO. 56. Deletion from the LCO would also mean the valuable resources would not be diverted from activity, such as improving mobile broadband coverage, that we perceive customers in Wales consider vitally important to their future economic and cultural wellbeing.
Supplementary memorandum submitted by the Mobile Broadband Group At the oral evidence sessions with both the Welsh Assembly Legislation Committee and the Welsh AVairs Committee, the MBG was asked to supply some supplementary information. In the interests of simplicity and transparency, this response consolidates the information being supplied to both Committees.
1. Plans to Develop Welsh Language Services to Customers The general principle being followed by all MBG members is to develop services in line with prevailing customer demand. Without revealing specific company strategies (which are not known to the MBG), the overwhelming trend is to continue to meet the customers’ requirement to manage more of their lives while on the move. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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An overriding theme of recent service developments is that language is treated on the basis of equality. To demonstrate this, it is instructive to review progress over recent times. It is a relatively recent development to be able to send an e-mail on the move, to view web-sites or to get access to on-line resources such as banking. All these 3G developments provide a world class infrastructure to communicate while mobile in any language, including Welsh.
More recent developments More recently, mobile phones (such as the iPhone and G1) are being supplied with increasing memory capacity, processing power and other capabilities. A significant benefit of this is that customers can tailor devices to their own specific requirements by downloading applications to their phones. Many of these applications are developed independently of the mobile operators and device manufacturers. There are limitless possibilities for anyone, including the Welsh Government, to develop applications that will promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language in telecommunications and more widely.
Other services Mobile operators will also remain alive to customer demand for more specific services, such as the ability to provide a bill in Welsh. The perception, though, is there is minimal pent up demand for such a service and uptake would be very low, if it were oVered. This is evidenced not only by the direct lack of demand on operators but also the very low take-up of Welsh Language services already oVered by other organisations.
Investment Operators have indicated their intention to continue to focus investment throughout the UK on enhancing 3G services and coverage. This world class infrastructure will provide a first rate platform on which to promote the use of the Welsh language and to enable consumers in Wales to communicate with each other in any way and in any language they wish.
2. Experience in Other Regions The mobile operators have operations in many European countries and other regions of the world. The respective Committees expressed a particular interest in operators’ experiences in Spain and Belgium, where serving customers in more than one language within national boundaries is a particular issue. We were particularly asked to comment on the following news report: “The Generalitat of Catalonia, the mobile phone manufacturers Nokia, Motorola, Grundig and Alcatel, and the operators Movistar, Vodafone, Orange and Yoigo have agreed a commitment to incorporate Catalan as a language option in all menus and applications of new handsets sold in Catalonia before the end of 2008. This agreement allows for operators to demand handsets incorporating the Catalan language option as a standard requirement in menus and applications, and for special campaigns encouraging client users to change their mobile phones to Catalan. The Generalitat is to provide language support to the companies and operators who request it for revising the translated terminology. At the moment 82% of the Catalan population aged over 15 years—ie 4,921,000 people—use mobile phones. A total of 580,000 citizens have their phones set in Catalan (11.8%), and 948,000 users (18.5%) would prefer to but have to set their phones in another language—which translates as a potential demand of over 1.5 million units for mobile phones in Catalan.”
Background Since 1982, the regions of Spain have passed language normalisation laws to guarantee the rights of citizens to freely choose the language in which they lead their everyday lives. These laws arose partly as a reaction to the Franco era, during which regional languages were very much discouraged. Normalisation laws exist in the Basque Country (1982), Galicia (1983), Valencia (1983), Navarre (1986), Balearic Islands (1986) and Catalunya (1988—revision of 1983 law). In recent years, the regional governments have draw up accords with specific sectors, setting out in more detail how the general rights might be fulfilled. In the telecommunications sector, three autonomous regions have made accords with the operators, setting out the direction of development on an evolving basis. 1. Catalunya (pop c.6 million, where most speak Catalan), 2. The Basque country (pop c.2 million, where about half speak Basque), and 3. Galicia (pop c.3 million, where most speak Gallego). Broadly the agreements cover: invoicing, marketing materials, customer services, sponsorship and languages on the terminals. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Implementation Implementing the accords entails the execution of very large and costly internal company projects. Much progress has been made, with bills, marketing material, web sites and handset language options widely available. Nevertheless, maintaining multi-lingual web sites on a day by day basis (they change a lot) is complex. It is also very diYcult to handle incoming customer services calls in the appropriate language, if the call centre is based in a diVerent part of Spain or oVshore from where the call is coming from. There are, however, signs that implementation programmes are running ahead of the regulations, as competition becomes a driver to oVer more language choices rather than regulation. Operators are seeking to diVerentiate themselves in the market place through language. It is believed that if there were no regulations, an operator that oVered choices of language would gain significant market share over an operator that didn’t. Telefonica Movistar, for example, now oVers about 60% of models with Basque as an optional language and 75% of models with Catalan. Vodafone has recently announced that their web site will be maintained in 4 languages. There is some evidence that the regional language options are taken up. For example, in a survey carried out in spring 2008 in the Catalan region, between 29% and 51% of mobile customers (depending on the operator), received their bill in Catalan.
Belgium Belgium presents a slightly diVerent challenge in that the country is essentially divided into three regions— bi-lingual Brussels, Dutch speaking Flanders and French speak Wallonia. The regions have detailed language legislation that cover all walks of life. In the mobile sector customer register as either Dutch or French speakers. In general, calls into the customer care centre from Dutch customers are directed into Flemish speaking call centres and calls from French registered customers to French speaking call centres. In the event of overload into one call centre, calls will be diverted by the traYc management system to another centre. However, as most call centre operatives are not bi-lingual, considerable diYculties are experienced when French speaking customer service agents have to handle calls from Flemish speaking customers (and vice versa). Similar problems arise with emergency calls. Irrespective of the identity of the caller, the emergency services in Wallonia answer calls in French and in Flanders they answer calls in Dutch. For mobile customers, this presents particular diYculties in border regions, where the mobile signal is not constrained by political boundaries. This can result in calls being picked up by the wrong emergency service. The language barriers cause dangerous situations to arise. This specific problem would not be a problem in Wales, as Welsh speakers can also speak English. Nevertheless, it is an example of the additional complexity that servicing mobile customers to two languages can bring to a task that is already complex enough in one language April 2009
Memorandum submitted by Mudiadau Dathlu’r Grmraeg Celebrating our Language MUDIADAU DATHLU’R GYMRAEG–CELEBRATING OUR LANGUAGE IS AN UMBARELLA GROUP OF 17 NATIONAL ORGANISATIONS CO-WORKING TO PROMOTE THE NEED FOR FURTHER LEGISLATION FOR THE WELSH LANGUAGE “Celebrating Our Language” agree with the principle that legislation on any matters linked to the Welsh language should take place at the National Assembly for Wales. To this end, “Celebrating Our Language” believe that no aspects of Welsh language legislation should remain in the hands of the Westminster Parliament if they can be moved. It is within the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement and the Government of Wales Act (2006) that this transfer of competence is realised. We believe that the LCO needs to be future-proof, allowing the Welsh Assembly Government the capacity of legislating to reflect future desires and aspirations of a fair and bilingual Wales. We feel it is important to progress beyond the argument regarding the need to legislate on the Welsh language in the Assembly, and concentrate our eVorts on ensuring that the Legislative Competence Order encompasses as much as possible, so that we do not have to repeat this prolonged process when producing a series of Measures for the Welsh language in future. “Celebrating Our Language” believe that it is the right of the Welsh Assembly to legislate on the Welsh language. A rational conclusion stemming from that belief is that the Assembly should outline, following wide-ranging consultation, which public services should be available bilingually. As outlined in the explanatory Memorandum by the Welsh Assembly Government, there is a desire to invest “in a programme of action to deliver eYcient, eVective, citizen centred public services” (p.4). If so, all public services, in whichever sector they are provided, should be included in the Order. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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The Assembly is responsible for ensuring transparent rights, so that the citizens of Wales can use the Welsh language with each other. “Celebrating Our Language” believe that this basic principle should not be subject to any restrictions. “Celebrating Our Language” believe that legislation must continue to focus on users, namely the citizens of Wales. By so doing, it could reasonably be argued that the main services in all sectors with which the public engage on a day to day basis should be encompassed by the LCO, rather than solely the regulated organisations. In this respect, supermarkets, banks and international private companies should be considered just as important as utilities to users in Wales. In our opinion, any future Act should also include these kinds of companies. “Celebrating Our Language” believe that the positive declaration made by the One Wales Government regarding the need to ensure rights and oYcial status for the Welsh language, and the creation of a Welsh Language Commissioner, is to be commended. However, we must ensure that this is not limited to rhetoric. Ensuring oYcial status for the Welsh language should be a core principle which permeates all other legislation relating to the Welsh language. It should also have a far-reaching impact on considerations in other fields, thereby ensuring that Measures in other areas confirm the One Wales Government’s commitment to safeguarding the linguistic rights of the people of Wales. Concurrently, the creation of a Welsh Language Commissioner should ensure far-reaching developments in the means of regulating legislation on the Welsh language. When discussing the concept of individual rights in Wales, those rights must extend into all sectors, including much of the private sector, otherwise it could be argued that the LCO will restrict Welsh citizens’ rights rather than securing new ones. We are confident that the Welsh AVairs Committee, along with our Welsh MPs will support, in concurrence with the Government of Wales Act 2006, that competence to legislate over the matter of the Welsh Language is transferred to the Welsh Assembly, and that the people of Wales can self determine legislation to ensure status, rights, and a Welsh Language Commissioner. Mudiadau Dathlu’r Gymraeg/Celebrating Our Language includes: Friends of the Earth, Cymdeithas Alawon Gwerin/Folk Music Society, Cymdeithas y Cymod/The Fellowship of Reconciliation in Wales, The Association of Welsh Translators and Interpreters, CYDAG/Society for Welsh medium Education, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg/The Welsh Language Society, Cymuned, The National Eisteddfod, Mentrau Iaith Cymru, Merched y Wawr, Young Farmers Clubs Wales, RHAG—Parents for Welsh Language Education, UCAC/National Union of Teachers in Wales, Aberystwyth Welsh-speaking Students’ Union, Bangor Welsh- speaking Students’ Union, FUW—Farmers Union Wales, Urdd Gobaith Cymru—children and young people organisation with over 50,000 members under 25’. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Parents for Welsh Medium Education (RhAG) 1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? RhAG believes that matters involving the Welsh language is intrinsically linked to the devolution settlement and that any subsequent decisions regarding the Welsh language should be undertaken in Wales by the people of Wales.
2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government Wales Act 2006? Yes.
3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? Yes; see answer 1.
4. The extent to which there is demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? From the Welsh speaking part of the Welsh population an overwhelming demand, substantially supported by many English speakers, particularly those who have chosen Welsh-medium education for their children viz Welsh speaking population of CardiV is approx 10% and the percentage of children commencing Welsh medium education is approaching 20%.
5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? RhAG does not believe that the transfer of legislative powers would have any wider implications for the UK budget as a whole.
6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? Again, RhAG does not believe that the transfer of functions would impact at all on reserved functions. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) Further to the answers to both preceding questions, RhAG does not believe that any major cross-border issues should arise from the LCO. It would of course have an impact on companies who have their HQ based in England or indeed in any other countries to adopt the use of the Welsh language to communicate with customers/clients.
8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? It is RhAG’s fundamental belief that the LCO would lead to the strengthening of the Welsh Language Board and the appointment of a much welcomed Language Commissioner. This development would not be a revolutionary step in the context of the plethora of regulatory bodies already existing in the UK. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Dr R. Gwynedd Parry I have taken note that the Committee welcomes comments on specific aspects of the proposed Order, and I have drafted brief comments that respond directly to these specific issues.
1. Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? Of all the subjects that ought to be within the National Assembly’s legislative competence, the Welsh language is probably among the most obvious. The National Assembly has been principally responsible for co-ordinating language policy in Wales from its inception. With its ground-breaking policy document, Iaith Pawb, the National Assembly presented its vision and outlined practical goals for the promotion and facilitation of a bilingual Wales. To grant it further powers to legislate, as necessary, to bring about the furtherance of its agenda in respect of the Welsh language and to implement its national language policy is wholly in the spirit, purpose and scope of the devolution settlement.
2. Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? The Government of Wales Act 2006 made explicit provision for the further devolution of powers and responsibilities from Westminster to CardiV. The LCO mechanism is the device set up in the Act to enable the National Assembly to acquire further powers to create Assembly Measures in respect of particular matters within designated fields (subject to restrictions and limitations). The draft LCO in respect of the Welsh Language, along with the accompanying memorandum, is clear as to the scope and extent of the powers sought by the National Assembly.
3. Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? The LCO has the eVect of granting the National Assembly more extensive jurisdiction over the Welsh language. As is made clear in the Memorandum, the proposed LCO would permit the National Assembly to pass Measures in relation to the use of the Welsh language in Wales in accordance with the specified matters. Any student familiar with the development of the legal status of the Welsh language in the twentieth century will know that navigating the Westminster machinery was often a tortuous aVair. The LCO supports an important principle, which is that language planning and the creation of language legislation is best done in Wales by the National Assembly.
4. The extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? The Welsh Language Act of 1993 was an important milestone in the story of the restoration and revitalisation of the Welsh language. Not only did it establish the principle of linguistic equality, it created a means, through the Welsh Language Board, of implementing that principle. However, I believe that there is a broad, general consensus within Wales that the social, constitutional and socio-linguistic climate has moved forward, and that the situation in Wales is diVerent from that which existed at the time of the creation of the 1993 Act. It is now time to further build on those foundations in order to realise the aspirations of the national language policy, Iaith Pawb, and the LCO creates the means whereby further development can occur. The Memorandum sets out in detail the nature and scope of future legislation. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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5. To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? I do not believe that there are significant implications for the UK budget. Government organisations in Wales are already obliged to provide services through the medium of the Welsh language in compliance with the Welsh Language Act 1993.
6. To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? The LCO would enable the National Assembly to legislate to promote or facilitate the use of the Welsh language and the concept of linguistic equality, but it explicitly excludes the use of the Welsh language in the courts. This would remain a reserved function for Westminster. I am not aware of other reserved functions that might be aVected by the LCO.
7. Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) No. As with the Welsh Language Act of 1993, the province of any future legislation would be confined to Wales. This is made clear in the LCO.
8. Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? It appears from newspaper reports that the Welsh Assembly Government, if it acquires the power under the proposed LCO, might legislate for the creation of a language commissioner and abolish or reform the Welsh Language Board. The Welsh Language Board is a statutory board established by the Welsh Language Act 1993. Paragraph 48 of the Memorandum, however, explains how under Article 2 of the proposed LCO the National Assembly would be able to repeal the relevant provision of the 1993 Act necessary in order to abolish or reform the Welsh Language Board. 4 March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Passenger Focus
Proposed Welsh Language LCO We are writing in response to the invitation to submit written evidence to the Welsh AVairs Committee’s current inquiry examining the National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009.
Passenger Focus is the oYcial, independent consumer organisation representing the interests of rail users in Great Britain. In Wales, we are represented by a dedicated Passenger Link Manager (Simon Pickering) and a Board Member (Stella Mair Thomas)–Stella is a nominee of the National Assembly for Wales and is a Welsh speaker.
We currently provide a number of services in the Welsh language, including helping passengers’ with unresolved complaints with rail companies. Passenger Focus is currently in the final stages of completing its Welsh Language Scheme, which is expected to be in place by summer 2009.
As a consumer body focused on improving the experience of rail users, it is not in our remit to comment in detail on the legislative aspects of the proposed Order. We would, however, like to make some observations about the importance that rail users in Wales attribute to information provision and their satisfaction with current provision. We note suggestions that legislative changes may see rail operators brought under the provisions of the Welsh Language Act 1993, so our research may help identify priority areas for bilingual information improvement and development across the rail industry.
Firstly, in 2007 Passenger Focus commissioned a research project into the improvement priorities of rail passengers. This research surveyed 4000 rail passengers across Britain, with 671 in Wales. The research found that passengers’ placed a particularly high importance on accurate and reliable information on train times and platforms, which ranked ninth out of a list of 30 priorities (see Table 1).
In terms of satisfaction with existing information provision, data from our twice-yearly National Passenger Survey continues to show relatively low levels of satisfaction with information during the train journey itself, particularly during times of disruption. In the latest survey (Autumn 2008), Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Table 1 PASSENGERS’ PRIORITIES FOR IMPROVEMENT IN WALES AND GREAT BRITAIN
Wales Priority for Improvement GB Rank rank 1 Price of train tickets oVer excellent value for money 1 2 At least 19 out of 20 trains arrive on time 3 3SuYcient train services at times I use the train 2 4 Passengers are always able to get a seat on the train 4 5 Trains are consistently well maintained/in excellent condition 8 6 Company keeps passengers informed if train delays 5 7 Seating area on the train is very comfortable 9 8 Maximum queue time no more than 2 mins to purchase tickets 6 9 Information on train times/platforms accurate and available 7 10 Connections with other train services are always good 15 11 Passengers experience a high level of security on the train 10 12 The inside of the train is cleaned to a high standard 14 13 Station staV are available whenever required 17 14 Personal security at stations is improved through CCTV/staV 11 15 Facilities at stations are plentiful and of good quality 18 16 All trains have staV to assist 20 17 Good easy connections with other forms of transport 12 18 Your journey time is reduced by five minutes 13 19 All station staV are helpful and with a positive attitude 21 20 Always a quick response to information requests at stations 19 21 All train staV helpful and have a positive attitude 23 22 There are good quality toilet facilities on every train 25 23 Useful information is provided throughout the journey 22 24 There is suYcient space for passengers’ luggage 24 25 The train travels at a fast speed throughout the journey 16 26 Station environment always pleasant and comfortable 26 27 Stations are cleaned to a high standard 27 28 All station building maintained to a high standard 28 29 High quality car parking available 29 30 The outside of the train is cleaned to a high standard 30
only 61% of passengers in Wales were satisfied with the provision of information during train journeys compared with a satisfaction score of 75% for information at stations about train times and platforms, and, 87% overall satisfaction. The NPS data also reveals that one of the major causes of dissatisfaction among rail passengers is how train companies deal with delays (only 46% of passengers in Wales satisfied in the latest survey) and that the lack of accurate, useful and timely information during disruption is a key contributor to this problem. Finally, we note that the inquiry is considering the possibility of any cross-border issues relating to the LCO. In this regard it is worth noting the importance of cross-border journeys to rail users in Wales. Figures from the OYce of Rail Regulation (ORR) reveal that one-third of the 22 million annual journeys that start and/or finish in Wales are cross-border journeys. Travel to/from London represents 8.8% of total Welsh rail journeys, with journeys to/from South West England accounting for a further 9.0%, the North West of England 6.5% and the West Midlands 4.1%, respectively. April 2009
Memorandum submitted by Que´bec Government OYce Summary The Memorandum briefly presents the main principles and goals of Que´bec’s language policy and outlines the impact of the Charter of the French language on the status of French Que´bec, as well as the new challenges that remain for this policy.
Expertise of the Submitter Within the Que´bec public administration, the Secre´tariat a` la politique linguistique (SPL) has been assigned a mission of coordination, collaboration and promotion with respect to Que´bec’s language policy. In this capacity, the SPL provides the Minister of Culture, Communications and the Status of Women and Minister responsible for the application of the Charter of the French language with advice about the implementation of Que´bec’s language policy. In collaboration with the three government agencies created Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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under the Charter of the French language (OYce que´be´cois de la langue franc¸aise, Counseil supe´rie´ur de la langue franc¸aise, Commission de toponymie), the SPL coordinates the deployment of eVorts related to proposed legislative and regulatory modifications in the area of language, and ensures the coherence and follow-up of government eVorts in the field of language. The SPL also participates in consolidating Que´bec’s language policy and raising awareness of the policy abroard.
Introduction The position of francophones in the Canadian context adds a certain edge to the Que´bec language situation. According to the most recent Canadian census data,24 Que´bec is home to a population of over seven million, made up of 79.6% native French-speakers, 8.2% native English-speakers and 12.3% allophones (that is, people with other mother tongues). Although francophones are the majority in Que´bec, they are a minority in Canada and North America.25 The percentage of native French-speakers across Canada shrank from 22.9% in 2001 to 22.1% in 2006.26 In 1951, francophones made up 29% of the Canadian population. The latest decrease is in keeping with the general trend observable over close to half a century. 1. Given the fragile situation of French in Canada and North America, along with social mobilization around the language issue in Que´bec, all Que´bec governments since the 1960s have implemented and maintained legislative measures to promote French. Que´bec took action by adopting language laws which, over time, led to the creation of a global language planning policy: — The Act to promote the French language in Que´bec (or “Bill 63”) in 1969. — The OYcial Language Act (or “Bill 22”) in 1974, which, for the first time ever, made French Que´bec’s oYcial language. It also imposed French-language (or “francization”) obligations in the areas of public administration, public utilities, professional orders, labour, business and education. — The Charter of the French language (“Bill 101”) in 1977, which reasserts the status of French as Que´bec’s oYcial language and spells out the fundamental rights flowing from this status. 2. The underlying postulate of the language policy is that for French to survive and thrive on the North American continent, it is necessary to give it the maximum protection and opportunity in Que´bec, the only territory where it is the language of the majority of the population. The goal is for French to become, as English is predominantly in the other provinces of Canada, the common language as well as the natural means of public communication for all Quebecers, whatever their mother tongue and family background. 3. As the cornerstone of Que´bec’s language policy, the Charter of the French language has an impact not only on relations between the government apparatus and citizens and in the field of elementary and secondary education, but also on corporations and other legal entities when it comes to communicating with the state and its citizens. The main objectives of the Charter are: integration of young immigrants into the French school system; the use of French in public signs and posters and commercial advertising; better availability of services in French for consumers; greater use of French by workers and enterprises. 4. The Charter includes provisions in areas such as: — The language of the public administration Que´bec’s public administration has to exercise leadership and set an example in promoting the use of French. The Charter sets forth a series of rules aimed at ensuring that French is given the status it warrants as the oYcial language of Que´bec. While oVering services in English, the Government of Que´bec is careful to avoid projecting an image of institutional bilingualism, particularly when communicating with businesses. — The language of legislation and justice French is the language of legislation and the courts in Que´bec. In compliance with certain provisions of the Canadian constitution applicable to Que´bec, a certain form of legislative and judicial bilingualism nevertheless has to be applied. Que´bec statutes are thus adopted and published in French and English, and both versions have the same force of law. People may also choose to use either French or English in Que´bec courts. — The language of education French is the language of education in Que´bec. Based on this principle, the Charter provides for education in French for all elementary and secondary school pupils, as well as youngsters enrolled in kindergarten. Among other things, French-language schooling favours the integration of young immigrants into Que´bec’s majority-francophone society. The Charter also guarantees the right of children who belong to the English-speaking minority to receive education in English, subject to certain conditions which are derived from the Canadian Constitution.
24 Statistics Canada, 2006 Census 25 Francophones make up only 2% of the North American population 26 Statistics Canada, 2006 Census Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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— The language of work The Charter is aimed at generalizing the use of French as the language of work and entrenches the right of all workers to carry on their activities in French. It thus places priority on the francization of enterprises, failing which employees would find it much harder to exercise their right to use French in the workplace. The Charter prescribes specific measures for enterprises having 50 or more employees in Que´bec. These enterprises must produce an analysis of their linguistic situation. When the use of French is not generalized within the enterprise, programs facilitating the adoption of French are drafted by the enterprise in collaboration with the OYce que´be´cois de la langue franc¸aise, which is the body responsible for assisting, advising, and monitoring enterprises throughout their francization process. A francization certificate is issued by the OYce que´be´cois de la langue franc¸aise when the use of French is generalized at all levels of the company.
The Language of Commerce and Business In order to protect consumers and emphasize Que´bec’s “French face”, as a general rule, the Charter requires the use of French on the labels of products sold in Que´bec. One or more other languages may also be used, provided the French text is given equivalent space. As for public signs and posters and commercial advertising displays, the French text must in most cases be clearly predominant. The Supreme Court of Canada has confirmed the legitimacy of this requirement. The Charter also created three language bodies : OYce que´be´cois de la langue franc¸aise, Conseil supe´rieur de la langue franc¸aise, Commission de toponymie. 5. A variety of trends indicates progress in the use of French in Que´bec over the past 30 years of application of the Charter: — French is predominant in public and commercial signs and posters, even in Montre´al; — Francophone consumers can obtain more services in their language; — The use of French is more widespread among both workers and enterprises; — More young immigrants attend French schools (80 %), and this attendance favours their integration into Que´bec’s majority-francophone society; and — Gaps in income and status, which were formerly unfavourable to francophones, have practically been eradicated. 6. Despite this progress, the language situation remains fragile. French is under daily pressure. More specifically, there are major new challenges for French as the language of work, commerce and business: — The dominant market forces in Canada and North America, economic globalization and the high penetration of information and communication technologies are factors that encourage the widespread use of English; — In addition, the opening-up of markets means that enterprises and industries based in Que´bec do business abroad on a regular basis. This increases the need to use languages other than French. Generally speaking, given the ageing of the population and the low birth rate, Que´bec francophones’ demolinguistic future depends increasingly on immigration.
Conclusion Given its geopolitical context, Que´bec is particularly vulnerable to the language issues generated by globalization and the opening-up of markets, and is striving to protect its right to promote its oYcial language within its territory while remaining open to other languages. Que´bec’s language policy reflects the quest for a balance between the clear assertion of the French- speaking nature of Que´bec society and respect for anglophone, allophone and Aboriginal communities. April 2009
Memorandum submitted from Royal National Institute of Blind People in Wales (RNIB Cymru) About Us 1. As the largest organisation of blind and partially sighted people in Wales, RNIB Cymru is pleased to have the opportunity to respond to the Committee’s call for evidence. 2. RNIB is a membership organisation with over 750 members in Wales who are blind, partially sighted or friends and family of people with sight loss. Based on current statistics, around 150 of our members will be Welsh speakers. We encourage members to be involved in our work and regularly meet with them in venues across Wales and discuss government policy and their ideas for change. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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3. RNIB Cymru campaigns for the rights of people with sight problems in Wales. We deliver services in employment, access technology, accessible information, welfare rights, housing, education and training. We rely on over 100 volunteers to support our work.
4. There are over 100,000 people in Wales with sight problems, around 20,000 of whom will be Welsh speakers. RNIB Cymru believes in peoples’ right to access information in a language and format that they can access. To support this we produce bilingual Welsh accessible information, including audio tape and Braille. At the moment we are transcribing 50 Welsh Language Talking Books for children.
Comments 5. RNIB Cymru believes that the National Assembly for Wales should be able to make laws for the promotion and use of the Welsh language and about which services should be available bilingually.
6. People with sight problems who cannot access standard print and wish to access information in Welsh do not receive an equal service as we found in our recent report “Policies into Practice”. Whilst two thirds of information from organisations in the public, private and voluntary sectors is available in English large print, only one third is available in Welsh large print. Producing Welsh information in large print is no more diYcult than doing so in English. The provision of audio and Braille is even worse. Welsh speakers are far less likely to be able to receive an accessible document in the language of their choice. Many organisations seem to have failed to grasp the fact that people can have sight problems and want to receive information in Welsh. Welsh speakers with sight problems should be given equal access to information in the language and format of their choice. This is broader than a language issue; it is one of social inclusion.
7. The National Assembly for Wales should have the power to introduce legislation that ensures Welsh information is available in accessible formats. It is able to prioritise issues surrounding the Welsh Language as their impact is felt mostly within Wales.
8. RNIB Cymru agrees that the National Assembly for Wales should be able to make laws about which services should be able to receive bilingually. RNIB Cymru believes in an inclusive society, where people are free to live their lives through the medium of English or Welsh.
9. We also support the principle of a Welsh Language Commissioner post that could support people in accessing Welsh language accessible information. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by RWE npower THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES (LEGISLATIVE COMPETENCE) (WELSH LANGUAGE) ORDER 2009 1. RWE npower is an integrated energy business, generating electricity and supplying gas, electricity and related services to customers across the UK. We operate and manage flexible, low-cost coal, oil and gas-fired power stations—generating over 10.3 GW of electricity.
2. We serve around 6.4 million customer accounts and produce more than 10% of the electricity used in England and Wales.
3. We have a long history of investment in Wales to enable the development and operation of generation capacity, including Aberthaw power station, two combined heat and power plants and a diverse portfolio of renewable energy schemes; both on and oVshore wind, and hydro generation. In total this plant generates around a third of the electricity consumed in Wales and creates significant local employment opportunities. Aberthaw power station alone contributes over £50 million to the Welsh economy each year.
4. We supply customers in Wales with gas/electricity.
5. RWE npower currently oVers a live Welsh translation service to anyone who requests it. Additionally, key service standards are available in Welsh on request. Despite promoting these services both on our website and in all our Codes of Practice, there were no requests for either of these services in the past year.
6. RWE npower would respond to any demand from its customers in Wales for additional bilingual services as part of its commitment to deliver excellent customer service. To date, however, we have not identified any such demand.
7. RWE npower believes that service providers in Wales should continue to supply bilingual services on a voluntary basis and that mandatory additional services are unnecessary and not cost-eVective. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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8. There is a risk that, if Welsh Language legislation resulting from the Legislative Competence Order increases significantly the costs associated with the provision of Welsh language services, some businesses with a smaller customer base in Wales could be deterred from competing for customers in Wales, due to the additional cost burden. This could damage the competitive market to the detriment of customers. It is important that legislation relating to the provision of bilingual services does not damage the competitive market by imposing disproportionate costs on suppliers. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Scottish Power Thank you for the opportunity to submit written evidence to the Committee on the Legislative Competence Order.
ScottishPower Ltd manages regulated and competitive businesses in the UK serving more than three million network customers (which includes over 400,000 in North and Mid Wales) and over five million gas and electricity retail customers (around 192,000 are in North and Mid Wales).
Our aim is to deliver an equally high standard of service to our customers through the medium of Welsh and English.
I have enclosed for your information ScottishPowers “Welsh Language Scheme” which was prepared in accordance with Sections 12 to 14 of the Welsh Language Act and in accordance with guidelines issued by the Welsh Language Board. The current scheme came into eVect in April 2008 and replaced the previous scheme which was approved in April 1997.27
We believe our work in this area demonstrated how it is possible to provide a high standard of service to Welsh speaking customers on a voluntary basis.
With regards to the specific Legislative Competence Order, while ScottishPower engages fully in the development of legislation that aVects our businesses, we do not think it is appropriate for us as a company take a position on the legislative competence of the developed legislatures in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland.
We would however be delighted to provide further information to the Committee highlighting our work and experience in this area. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Urdd Gobaith Cymru Urdd Gobaith Cymru is a voluntary youth organisation with over 50,000 members, up to 25 years old. The Urdd’s experience is that children and young people enjoy speaking and using Welsh—provided that they are given the opportunity to do so. They are more likely to feel confident enough to use the Welsh language if it is easy for them to do so, and if it is clearly visible within their surroundings.
The Urdd’s aim is to ensure that the Welsh language is introduced as an exciting, natural medium. Transferring power, including the ability to introduce any further legislation, to the National Assembly for Wales, will inevitably improve the context for doing so. In our opinion, current legislation needs to be improved.
We believe that the National Assembly for Wales should legislate to ensure that more services are provided to the public bilingually. This is natural progression from previous legislation. The Urdd considers this matter from a young person’s viewpoint, be it a youngster who’s been taught Welsh at home or at school. The ability to receive a consistent Welsh language service makes a vast diVerence to the way a person uses the Welsh language once they have left home or left school. Other European countries have succeeded to legislate in order to protect lesser used languages.
The National Assembly for Wales should be able to legislate in order to ensure that people are freely able to communicate in Welsh with one another. The necessity to legislate in this context has been exposed during recent incidents. It is a fundamental right for an individual to be able to speak their own language in their own country.
From a young person’s perspective in Wales today, we believe that any legislation should lead to improvement in the day to day use of the Welsh language. This leads us to believe that there should be the right to consider legislating in the banking sector, internet banking, mobile phone services etc. It would
27 Not printed, published on Welsh Language Board Website www.byig-wlb.org.uk Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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include an argument for looking into telephone companies’ provision of Welsh language services. It would include leisure providers for example, sport stadiums, cinemas. It would include large shops and transport companies. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Virgin Media Virgin Media is grateful for the opportunity to submit written evidence to the Welsh AVairs Select Committee on the proposed Order outlined above and the to provide our views on the specific question of the extent to which there is a demand for legislation on the matter in question. To briefly provide background on Virgin Media, we are the UK’s first quad-play provider of TV, broadband, phone and mobile with almost 10 million customers. Virgin Media is the largest residential broadband provider in the country, delivering next-generation internet access with ultrafast speeds of up to 50Mb using its unique fibre-optic cable network. Virgin Media has the UK’s most advanced TV on demand service and is the only TV platform to carry BBC iPlayer. Virgin Media was the first company to launch a high definition TV service and oVers a high-specification, HDready V! personal video recorder. Virgin Media is the second-largest provider of pay TV and home phone in the UK and the largest virtual mobile network operator. Virgin Media in principle supports the proposal to confer power on the National Assembly for Wales to legislate on the promotion and use of the Welsh language and which services the public should be able to receive bilingually. These proposals are consistent with the principle of devolved Welsh governance. We do feel however, that it is worth outlining to the Committee at this stage our views on the potential impact of a legal obligation on private companies to provide information bilingually. It is not clear from contact with our customers that there is an overwhelming customer demand from them to communicate with Virgin Media bilingually. Virgin Media employ a number of Welsh speakers in our customer call centres in Wales, providing the option for customers to communicate with us in Welsh should they so wish. However, demand for their services over the years has been exceptionally limited. Moreover, neither a lack of a bilingual option in our call centres and billing centres, nor the absence of an option to receive bills or other written communications in Welsh, have arisen as points of contention with customers. Our starting point when looking at legislative proposals is to examine the potential consequences of those proposals on our customers. Should it become compulsory for telecom companies to supply individual bills in Welsh or be obliged to provide Welsh speaking customer service representatives in their call centres, this would add significant additional costs to our operations in Wales. In an exceptionally competitive marketplace, this additional cost of operation in Wales may have a number of unintended consequences. In an extreme case, a diYcult economic climate combined with the additional cost of implementing these measures might dissuade some companies from investing in Wales. The consequence of this might be to reduce competition and innovation in the telecommunications or other markets in Wales, which may ultimately lead to consumer harm through reduced innovative services or a lack of competition between competing companies, potentially leading to higher prices. The exceptionally competitive nature of the telecommunications industry in the UK means that the cost of any compulsory scheme to produce bills in Welsh, even if the option for billing in Welsh benefits a small minority of customers, may lead to higher bills for the vast majority of customers in Wales. Given the pressures that exist on the family budget in these diYcult economic times, increased prices could mean that families who currently take telecommunications services may decide to sacrifice these services in favour of non discretionary services such as gas, electricity, water or food. For the significant minority of households currently oZine, the price of communications services may be one of the more significant barriers when considering whether or not to sign up for services. As such, price rises that come as a result of this measure may prevent some families from entering agreements for such services. Therefore, potential unintended consequences of this well meaning legislation may in fact run counter to initiatives which sit at the heart of Government and Assembly policy, to promote digital inclusion and reduce social exclusion in Wales. Virgin Media believes that telecom services should be available to as many people as possible, as cheaply as possible. That is why we have recently announced plans to upgrade all of our 2Mb tier customers (the majority of our entire customer base) to our new 10Mb entry level tier; that is why we have recently partnered with the e-Learning Foundation and UK Online centres to provide hundreds of low income families with 12 months free connectivity; and that is also why we provide exceptional value products such as our £8.50 monthly mobile tariff—the most competitively priced service in the UK. This belief is based on our experience of the capacity of the internet to educate, entertain, inspire and transform customer’s lives as well as saving them money and time though the use of a diverse range of online services. As such, we would be disappointed if opportunities oVered by the online world, the range of websites and resources online which might enable celebration of the Welsh Language and culture, were placed out of reach of consumers by a well-meaning measure which inadvertently priced families oV the internet. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Virgin Media believe that a much better alternative might be to identify ways in which private companies might be persuaded of the benefits of oVering services in Welsh when doing business in Wales. Virgin Media are not yet convinced that the provision of billing and customer service in Welsh is something that our customers want.
Beyond that, a wider public interest to promote the Welsh language should in the first instance be furthered through a close dialogue between the Welsh government and operators who oVer services in Wales. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Alun Ffred Jones AM, Minister for Heritage, Welsh Assembly Government Thank you for the opportunity to provide evidence to the Welsh AVairs Committee on 27 April. I look forward to reading the Committee’s report on the proposed Welsh Language LCO. We will of course wish to consider your findings before deciding what further discussions we will need to conduct with the Wales OYce and other Whitehall departments over the terms of the LCO.
You asked for clarification on two issues. The first relates to the inclusion, under paragraph (c), of bodies established by Royal Prerogative (Royal Charter). The second relates to reference to oYcial status in the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005.
Bodies Established by Royal Charter Paragraph (c) of the proposed Welsh language LCO provides for the inclusion of bodies created by Royal Charter. Royal Charters are granted by Her Majesty on the advice of the Privy Council to bodies that work in the public interest and which can demonstrate pre-eminence, stability and permanence in their particular field.
The Welsh Assembly Government believes that it is appropriate for bodies established in this way to be capable of being made subject to Welsh language duties by the National Assembly Wales because of the status accorded to them through their establishment by Royal Charter and given the important nature of the services they provide to the public in Wales.
A number of Royal Charter bodies have been required to agree Welsh language schemes under the Welsh Language Act 1993, for example, the National Museums and Galleries of Wales and the National Library of Wales.
I recognise that there will be diVering views as to which bodies established by Royal Charter should be made subject to duties in relation to the Welsh language under a future Assembly Measure. However, it is important to include Royal Charter bodies as a category of bodies upon which the National Assembly could impose duties in relation to the Welsh language as this status has been granted and may in the future be granted to bodies which have an important impact on the lives of the public in Wales.
All proposed Assembly Measures will have to stand up to scrutiny and the requirements for impact assessment–not to mention the application of common sense and proportionality.
The Gaelic Language (Scotland)Act 2005 The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 establishes the Bo`rd na Ga`idhlig (the Gaelic Language Board) whose functions are to be exercised with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an oYcial language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language through a set series of aims and actions, namely increasing the persons who are able to use and understand the Gaelic language, encouraging the use and understanding of the Gaelic language and facilitating access, in Scotland and elsewhere, to the Gaelic language and Gaelic culture.
In this context, the reference in section 1(3) of the 2005 Act to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an oYcial language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language is not deployed in a wholly declaratory fashion; the 2005 Act defines what it considers to be the means of securing oYcial language status for the Gaelic language.
I trust that this information is of assistance to you. May 2009 Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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Memorandum submitted by The Wales Tourism Alliance 1. Introduction The Wales Tourism Alliance 1.1 The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA) is a pan-Wales umbrella group with member organisations from across Wales resting within its general membership. This amounts to around 7,000 operators and means WTA contacts and representatives are now found in every part of Wales.
1.2 The WTA’s structure has also grown to accommodate its established role as the voice of the industry. A seven-person executive now represents all regions and the key sectors of the industry and each year a well- attended annual conference debates and decides on key policy issues aVecting the industry.
1.3 Thank you for requesting our views on this matter; please help develop the successful partnership the Committee enjoys with the industry in Wales by making sure we are able to support your work and contribute to any future consultations or inquiries that the Committee may instigate.
2. The Tourism Industry In Wales Providing And Protecting Jobs Across Wales
2.1 Tourism in Wales is a cornerstone of the economy of Wales. The industry provides jobs that cannot be exported, an investment in infrastructure that can be utilised by residents and visitors and oVers the experience and wider understanding of the culture and heritage of Wales to the world beyond our borders.
2.2 Even during a recession, tourism oVers a reliable delivery of taxation, job provision and additional ancillary spending (food, drink, associated retail etc) while sustaining an industrial infrastructure that will be in place to take advantage of the upturn when it arrives.
2.3 Tourism has ongoing benefit to those rural and urban communities in Wales in need of regeneration. Throughout Wales, tourism significantly enhances the lives of local communities by supporting a wider range of amenities than would otherwise be viable. The economic future of Wales is reliant on the long-term prosperity of the tourism industry and on the industry meeting and exceeding the needs of the market.
2.4 The tourism sector is estimated to be worth £3.5 billion to Wales and a large number of people in Wales are dependent for their livelihoods on the tourism industry. Around 77,900 workers were in tourism- dependent jobs in 2003, equating to around 60,000 full-time equivalent positions (FTEs). This is more, as a share of the total workforce, than any English region other than the South East. Visitors spend £1 in every £10 spent on transport and retail in Wales.
Reliance on tourist trade: Wales % UK Average % Directly reliant on tourist trade 15.4 8.3 Indirectly reliant on tourist trade 18.9 11.6 Not reliant on tourist trade 65.7 80.1 Above table provided by Federation of Small Businesses in Wales (a WTA member organisation)
3. Our Response Commitment 3.1 Many tourism businesses in Wales have a clear commitment to the Welsh language and to the local community, and its culture and heritage, within which they provide visitor services; for many tourism companies, using and providing Welsh-language services and the clear and positive promotion of the Welsh language is already a key part of daily business life.
3.2 WTA is aware of the important cultural and commercial diversification benefits that the Welsh language oVers Wales and that it uniquely provides enhancement to the sense of place experience enjoyed by those visiting Wales.
3.3 WTA has played an active and leading part in promoting the advantages of Welsh culture and the Welsh language, heading up the activity on the Cultural Tourism Partnership and working to bring together tourism businesses with the public sector initiatives that surround the heritage and culture of Wales. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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The Transference of Legislative Powers 3.4 The WTA is in favour of the transference of the legislative powers as outlined to CardiV from Westminster.
The £200,000 Threshold 3.5 WTA notes the proposed £200,000 threshold (ie persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year). 3.6 We would ask for a common sense approach to monitoring and enforcing this boundary with all eVorts made to assist businesses that may be experiencing any diYculties with implementation. 3.7 It is the opinion of some of our members that that the threshold may be too low and that it must not be lowered in the future. WTA believes a lower threshold may represent an imposition on tourism businesses and we would seek assurances from Government that the threshold will not be lowered further.
Red Tape 3.8 WTA is strongly encouraging Government to assist Wales’ tourism businesses to help get through the economic downturn by introducing a moratorium on the development and implementation of regulation. 3.9 We acknowledge that, as a result of spending to secure the banking sector, the Government has to deal with a limitation on the funds that are available to invest in other sectors of the economy—even though the latest statistics indicate that each pound invested in tourism in Wales provides a thirty times return. 3.10 Therefore, and with little possibility of there being immediate additional financial support, WTA believes an alternative way of helping business would be to reduce the ever-increasing regulatory burden on the industry. 3.13 With this in mind, WTA is concerned that the proposed LCO may lead to an increase, and not a decrease, in the regulatory burden and urges that the Welsh Assembly Government does all within its power to prevent this from happening.
4. Other Support Measures Research 4.1 The FSB (a member organisation of WTA) is calling on the Assembly to fund research to show the economic and visitor benefits of using the Welsh language and WTA supports this suggestion. We believe that any available evidence will help to highlight any business advantages and therefore increase motivation with regard to adopting and promoting bilingualism in business.
Partnership 4.2 WTA is prepared play our part in any initiatives that WAG and/or the Welsh Language Board instigate to work together to publicise any Welsh language services that are available or made available to encourage business participation. 4.3 FSB also point out that the popular Welsh Language Board Business Grant, which helped with the cost of signs and materials for businesses up to a value of £1,000, has now ceased. This grant could increase the use of Welsh in business and WTA agrees that it should be replaced or reinstated—and widely promoted—to help support the new powers requested by the Welsh Assembly Government. April 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Wales TUC Welsh Affairs Committee Welsh Language LCO Thank you for your recent correspondence to the Wales TUC inviting written evidence to the Committee on the proposed Welsh Language LCO. The Wales TUC is the voice of Wales at work. With over 50 aYliated trade unions the Wales TUC represents nearly half a million workers. The Wales TUC was established in 1974. It is an integral part of the TUC and was set up to ensure that the role of the TUC is eVectively undertaken in Wales. The Wales TUC seeks to work with and make representations to other organisations at an all-Wales level. As an organisation committed to devolution and greater equality Wales TUC broadly supports the devolution of Welsh language matters to Wales in line with the provisions of the Government of Wales Act 2006. The Wales TUC supports the view that it is entirely appropriate that decisions about Welsh language provision are made by the National Assembly for Wales (”the Assembly”). Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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As such the Wales TUC aYrmatively supports the general consultation assertions that:
— the Assembly should be able to make laws on the promotion and use of the Welsh language;
— the Assembly should be able to make laws about which services the public should be able to receive bilingually; and
— the Assembly should be able to make laws on the freedom of persons to use the Welsh language with each other.
Nonetheless the Wales TUC would like to see how the £200,000 threshold was achieved explained in order that a better judgement and response could be made about its appropriateness as a benchmark for legislative intervention.
The Wales TUC is of the view that the proposed LCO is suYciently and rightly broad to provide the Assembly with suYcient scope not to be limited in decision-making over Welsh language provision.
Finally, the Wales TUC would note that the proposed LCO confers only the power to make Measures in respect of Welsh language provision and looks forward to full and thorough consultation on any proposed Measures which arise as a consequence of the successful devolution of Welsh language matters to the Assembly. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Welsh Language Board 1. The Welsh Language Board welcomes the opportunity to give evidence to the Welsh AVairs Committee on this proposed Order. We should also be prepared to advise the Committee on any further aspects relating to the Welsh language.
2. So far as the specific questions raised by the Chair of the Welsh AVairs Committee are concerned, all the Board wishes to say is that it believes that the request for the competence to legislate is within the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement. And since any new legislation would have an eVect on some bodies that are located outside Wales, as is already the case with the Welsh Language Act 1993, it is entirely appropriate that the UK Parliament expresses its views on the proposed Order.
3. We wish to see further legislation because we believe that the Welsh Language Act 1993 is no longer adequate. The Board regularly receives complaints under this Act, and we enquire into them and make recommendations to correct shortcomings. But under the present legislation, those circumstances in which the Board can make recommendations are restricted, as are our powers to enforce change in the light of those recommendations. In addition, under the present legislation, neither members of the public nor the Board have a right to take legal steps against public bodies for failing to provide a Welsh Language service.
4. There is a reference in the proposed Order to the principle of treating the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality. This principle is also central to the Welsh Language Act 1993, and it has done much to raise the status of the Welsh language in Wales even though this is not the same as bestowing oYcial status on one language or the other. We still believe that the reference in the proposed Order is beneficial, while accepting at the same time that constitutional diYculties may arise in this context.
5. As for the private sector, what is proposed in the Order would not have any eVect on 99% of the sector in Wales. We should make it clear that the Board does not wish to see legislation extended to the vast majority of the private sector: our only interest is in those bodies which provide services of a public nature, and we are already working with several of these on the development of their Welsh language services.
6. In an opinion poll commissioned recently by BBC Wales, 47% of those polled were in favour of greater legislation in support of Welsh, compared with 29% who did not wish to see further legalisation. We too believe that the Assembly Government’s desire to present further legislation on the Welsh Language reflects the will of the majority of the people of Wales who have a view on the matter.
7. So far as the content of the proposed Order is concerned, the Welsh Language Board has already made detailed comments in its evidence to Legislation Committee 5 of the National Assembly for Wales. We attach that evidence for the information of the Welsh AVairs Committee.28 13 March 2009
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Supplementary memorandum submitted by the Welsh Language Board Following our written submission, the Board wishes to make some further comments in the light of our oral evidence session to the Welsh AVairs Select Committee on 30 March 2009. Our comments follow:
1. Matter 20.1(e) “persons providing services to the public who receive public money amounting to £200,000 or more in a financial year” 1.1 The Board believes that the definition of public money should be clarified in the above clause, and in paragraph 35 of the Memorandum. Specifically,it should be made clear exactly which funding streams could be included in legislation. We believe that funding distributed through the National Lottery should be included in the £200,000 threshold. As it stands, it is unclear whether Lottery funding is included.
2. Matter 20.1(i) “persons opting or agreeing to be subject to the imposition of the duties” 2.1 The Board believes that the Welsh Assembly Government needs to clarify the above clause, and paragraph 43 of the Memorandum. The Government needs to consider whether bodies would be willing to adopt a Language Scheme voluntarily, and whether a breach of that Scheme would lead to sanctions or further actions. It is possible that an alternative system for bodies that adopt a voluntary Language Scheme would be a preferred option.
3. Matter 20.1(h)(iv)—Telecommunication Services 3.1 The Board does not believe that introducing more Welsh language services to the mobile telephony industry would impinge upon other services. 3.2 Over the next year, the Board will be compiling a standardised list of terms for use in mobile telephony (as we did when we worked in partnership with Microsoft to localise their software to the Welsh language). We are happy to work with the telephony companies on this work. The fruit of this work will assist phone companies to oVer Welsh medium services. 3.3 Several companies that are operating in Britain, already oVer multilingual telephony in the Catalan, Basque and Galician languages (eg Orange & Vodafone). 3.4 It should be noted that telephone manufacturers already provide phones in the Catalan, Galician and Basque languages (eg Alcatel, Blackberry, HTC [Smartphones] Motorola, Nokia, Samsung). 3.5 Mobile phones (worldwide, including in Britain) are constructed to be multilingual. Adding the Welsh language would be a small matter. 3.6 DiVerent versions of the distributing chain would not need to be created in order to ensure that phones are available in Welsh in Wales, and not elsewhere in Britain. The experience of bilingual regions of Spain proves that having multilingual phones across the state is not a problem.
4. Matter 20.2 4.1 The Board welcomes the principle of legislating to give people who wish to speak Welsh with each other the freedom to do so. Nevertheless, the Board has some concerns with regard to restricting people’s freedom to use Welsh, and believes that the Memorandum should clarify the situation. It should clarify, for example, whether Welsh speaking prisoners could be banned from speaking Welsh with relatives, or from writing to them in Welsh. 4.2 In addition to the above point, the Board believes that legislation should declare a “right” for Welsh speakers to speak Welsh with each other, as opposed to a “freedom” to do so. April 2009
Memorandum submitted by The Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) Introduction 1. The Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) represents the 22 local authorities in Wales, and the three national park authorities, the three fire and rescue authorities, and four police authorities are associate members. 2. It seeks to provide representation to local authorities within an emerging policy framework that satisfies the key priorities of our members and delivers a broad range of services that add value to Welsh Local Government and the communities they serve. 3. The WLGA is pleased to be provided with the opportunity to respond to the Welsh AVairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny of the proposed legislative competence order on the Welsh language. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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4. The proposed Welsh Language LCO was discussed at the February meeting of the WLGA’s Council where all 22 local authorities are represented. All 22 Welsh councils provided unanimous support to the principle that matters relating to the Welsh language should be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales through the proposed LCO.
Is the LCO request in the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement? The WLGA believes that this LCO request is entirely within the spirit and scope of the devolution settlement. All aspects of the LCO relate to the Welsh language. It would be diYcult to come up with a more perfect example of an LCO request that relates specifically to Wales, its people and its culture. The LCO would enable the National Assembly to pass legislation through Measures to fulfil their commitments as outlined in the “One Wales” manifesto: — Confirming oYcial status for both Welsh and English languages; — Providing linguistic rights in the provision of services; and — Establishing the post of Language Commissioner.
Is the use of the LCO mechanism in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 2006? The scope of the proposed Legislative Competence Order on the Welsh language is in accordance with Field 20: Welsh Language in Schedule 5 of the 2006 Act. The competence sought under the proposed LCO would enable the Welsh Assembly Government to update the current legislative framework under the 1993 Act to address issues that have arisen during the past 15 years. For example, there is a need for greater clarity due to the emergence of new service providers and changes to the structure of certain public services. Better definition of the bodies/organisations that fall under the scope of the 1993 Act is also required and the list provided under Matter 20.1 subsections (a) to (h) in the proposed LCO seems to cover this successfully.
Is the use of an LCO more appropriate than, for example, the use of framework powers in a Westminster Bill? As the LCO relates specifically to issues aVecting Wales, devolving legislative powers to the National Assembly for Wales on the promotion and use of the Welsh language; on which services the public can receive bilingually; and on the freedom of persons to use the Welsh language with each other is more appropriate than using any other legislative mechanisms. Under the 1993 Welsh Language Act, the National Assembly for Wales has no powers to legislate on the Welsh language. The proposed LCO would resolve this.
To what extent is there a demand for legislation on the matter(s) in question? 20.8% of the population of Wales could speak Welsh in 2001. The proportions vary significantly by local authority with the highest proportions seen in Gwynedd (69%), Isle of Anglesey (60%), Ceredigion (52%) and Carmarthenshire (50%). The lowest proportions are seen in areas such as Monmouthshire, Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport (under 10%). However, the greatest increases in the number of people able to speak Welsh in Wales between 1991 and 2001 were seen in those areas with the lowest proportion of speakers. Welsh language oYcers working within local authorities in Wales have been delivering Welsh language schemes in accordance with the 1993 Welsh Language Act. However, over the past 15 years, it has become apparent that the current processes that must be undertaken can be cumbersome without necessarily improving Welsh language services. Conversely, there are current gaps which could be tightened to improve the way Welsh language provision in public authorities is developed. The WLGA would wish to see a modernised and simplified legal framework governing the provision of Welsh language services. The LCO could enable that to happen.
To what extent might the transfer of functions proposed have wider implications for the UK budget? There is no cost attached to the Welsh Language LCO itself. It is diYcult to ascertain the cost implications of any subsequent Measures. However, a rigorous impact assessment to consider likely costs or impacts on any sector would have to be undertaken as Measures are drafted. Matter 20.1 in the Welsh Language LCO is to include the right to “promote or facilitate the use of the Welsh language, and the treatment of the Welsh and English languages on the basis of equality”. This is likely to impose duties on a number of new organisations which do not currently fall under the scope of the existing 1993 Act. However, this will not have any implications for the UK budget. Specifically, Matter 20.1 exempts the use of the Welsh language in courts which is the main area where there would be budget implications for the UK budget. Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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To what extent might the transfer of functions impact on reserved functions? This is an issue between the UK Government and the National Assembly for Wales. The WLGA does not have any comments to make on this issue.
Are there any cross-border issues relating to the LCO? (Would legislation subsequently be required in England?) There are no obvious additional burdens on organisations across the border other than when they are providing services in Wales. The WLGA cannot see that there would be a need for any subsequent legislation for England on this matter.
Would the proposed LCO necessitate the formation or abolition of Welsh institutions and structures? If so, where does the legislative competence to exercise such changes lie? The LCO proposes setting up a structure for a Language Commissioner. This would probably require a new structure with support staV which would be separate to the Welsh Assembly Government and the Welsh Language Board. However, as the Welsh Language Board is currently responsible for exercising similar functions, it would not entail significant additional costs. The clear division proposed between a Welsh Language Board to concentrate on the development of the Welsh Language and a separate executive function for a “Language Commissioner” to deal with issues around compliance with legislation would also be welcomed. The legislative competence to exercise such changes is included in the proposed Order. March 2009
Memorandum submitted by Adam West I would like to add my voice to those you may be hearing in asking that you allow this LCO request to pass to the elected representative body for Wales in CardiV Bay. It is vital that the people who make decisions regarding our language live among us and understand the culture of the country and people who would love nothing more than the right to live through their own language in their own country. It is an injustice that needs addressing that people should be forced to learn and use another language that they are not comfortable with when accessing services. The power lies with you to decide to empower these citizens. The private sector has already voluntarily made great strides in providing services through Welsh; power to influence the implementation and extent of these services though needs to rest with CardiV, in the heart of the aVected territory. Finally, for the survival of the oldest indigenous language of the United Kingdom it is vital that people are able to use the language. Please, for the sake of our collective heritage, allow this LCO to pass as it was presented so that future generations will be free to communicate as they choose, and as part an unbroken line through history. February 2009
Memorandum submitted by Gareth Wood I believe that the Welsh Assembly Government has the moral right to legislate on the Welsh Language; there is a strong consensus across the political spectrum in the Assembly and indeed throughout Wales in favour of the principle that legislation relating to the Welsh Language should be made in Wales and not in Westminster. Indeed, I believe that all of powers in relation to the Welsh Language, without any restrictions should be transferred to the Welsh Assembly in CardiV. In accepting this principle, I call upon you to respond to the needs of the people of Wales and the Welsh language and to press upon the other members of the Committee to present a report, which will not recommend any weakening of the LCO. Rather that you strengthen the LCO in order to ensure equality for the Welsh Language and realise a historic opportunity to create a truly bilingual society. I would ask you to consider lending your support to the following specific points: — Removing the limit of £200,000 with regard to bodies who receive public money and place expectations on the public sector in general in order to ensure consistency, clarity and simplicity for the service user; — In addition to establishing the freedom to speak through the medium of Welsh language in the workplace, it is necessary to establish the right to work through the medium of Welsh thus removing any ambiguity and promoting a process whereby bodies and companies use the Welsh language internally as well externally; Processed: 02-07-2009 19:08:58 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 428686 Unit: PAG5
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— The LCO does not include provision to establish the right to a Welsh speaking jury—as criminal justice is not a devolved power, I ask you to consider how this essential right can be realised; — Extend the list of bodies named in the LCO in order to normalise the use of the Welsh Language in Wales and ensure that this legislation makes a real diVerence to the quality of life of the people of Wales. I would wish to see shops and private companies, leisure facilities, retail outlets, entertainment facilities, restaurants and taverns, all banking and financial services on the high street and internet be included in the LCO; and — Add all means of public transport not only the railway companies. I would like to see aeroplane, shipping and bus companies included in the LCO. It is of vital importance that the LCO enables the Welsh Assembly Government to draft a Comprehensive Language Measure or Measures, that will ensure fair and equal access to the Welsh Language for all the people of Wales. I support the need to establish oYcial status for the Welsh Language, statutory rights for all the people of Wales to use the Welsh Language in every aspect of their lives, and establish and a Commissioner for the Welsh language with the necessary power to prosecute bodies that do not adhere to the new legislation. February 2009
Memorandum submitted by the Privy Council OYce The Privy Council OYce does not have any policy role in Legislative Competence Orders in Council and in any event we would not expect that the impact on chartered bodies of these provisions would be any diVerent from their impact on bodies incorporated by other means. Chartered bodies are subject, as are other bodies, to legislation passed by Government and it seems that Government already has input on these proposals by the relevant part of the Privy Council—the Secretary of State for Wales is a Privy Councellor and Wayne David his Minister and advisor.
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