Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill
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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee COUNTER-TERRORISM AND SENTENCING BILL First Sitting Thursday 25 June 2020 (Morning) CONTENTS Programme motion agreed to. Motion to sit in private agreed to. Written evidence (Reporting to the House) motion agreed to. Examination of witnesses. Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock. PBC (Bill 129) 2019 - 2021 No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the final version of the report should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Monday 29 June 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1 Public Bill Committee25 JUNE 2020 Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill 2 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: STEVE MCCABE,†MR LAURENCE ROBERTSON Bacon, Gareth (Orpington) (Con) † Marson, Julie (Hertford and Stortford) (Con) † Butler, Rob (Aylesbury) (Con) † O’Brien, Neil (Harborough) (Con) † Cadbury, Ruth (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab) † Owatemi, Taiwo (Coventry North West) (Lab) † Charalambous, Bambos (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab) † Philp, Chris (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of † Cherry, Joanna (Edinburgh South West) (SNP) State for Justice) † Cunningham, Alex (Stockton North) (Lab) † Pursglove, Tom (Corby) (Con) † Dines, Miss Sarah (Derbyshire Dales) (Con) † Trott, Laura (Sevenoaks) (Con) Everitt, Ben (Milton Keynes North) (Con) MacAskill, Kenny (East Lothian) (SNP) Kevin Maddison, John-Paul Flaherty, Committee Clerks † McGinn, Conor (St Helens North) (Lab) Mak, Alan (Havant) (Con) † attended the Committee Witnesses Jonathan Hall QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation Assistant Chief Constable Tim Jacques, deputy senior national co-ordinator for counter-terrorism policing 3 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill 4 Public Bill Committee Day Time Witness Tuesday 30 June Until no later The Professional Trades than 9.55 am Union Thursday 25 June 2020 for Prison, Correctional and Secure Psychiatric (Morning) Workers Tuesday 30 June Until no later The Tony Blair Institute than 10.25 am for [MR LAURENCE ROBERTSON in the Chair] Global Change Tuesday 30 June Until no later Professor Andrew Silke, Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill than 10.55 am Cranfield University (3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee 11.30 am shall be taken in the following order: Clause 1; Schedule 1; The Chair: Before we begin, I have a couple of Clause 2; Schedule 2; Clause 3; Schedule 3; Clauses 4 to 6; housekeeping points to make. Please make sure that Schedule 4; Clauses 7 to 19; Schedule 5; Clauses 20 and 21; Schedule 6; Clauses 22 and 23; Schedule 7; Clauses 24 and 25; electronic devices are on silent. I am afraid that tea and Schedule 8; Clauses 26 and 27; Schedule 9; Clause 28; coffee are not allowed; water is, along as it has not been Schedule 10; Clauses 29 to 36; Schedule 11; Clauses 37 to 45; near a tea bag or any coffee granules. Social distancing Schedule 12; Clauses 46 to 48; Schedule 13; Clauses 49 to 53; new must be observed. Our Hansard reporters would be Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill; grateful if Members could email any electronic copies (4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) of their speaking notes to [email protected]. be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 14 July. Please do remove jackets at any point under my chairmanship as we proceed through the Bill. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I have one point of clarification to We will first consider the programme motion on the make. Yesterday, in the Programming Sub-Committee, amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to we discussed whether we should invite the Prison Officers allow us to deliberate in private briefly, before moving Association or the Prison Governors Association. On to the oral evidence session. I hope we can get through further investigation, it transpires that the Professional these first bits without too much debate. I call the Trades Union for Prison, Correctional and Secure Minister to move the programme motion that was Psychiatric Workers is in fact the Prison Officers agreed by the Programming Sub-Committee yesterday. Association—that is its full name. We will therefore see the Prison Officers Association on Tuesday at 9.25 am. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice We had contacted the Prison Governors Association, (Chris Philp): I beg to move, but I am told that, rather surprisingly, it did not reply. That— That should satisfy the request that the shadow Minister made yesterday. (1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 11.30 am on Thursday 25 June) meet; Question put and agreed to. (a) at 2.00 pm on Thursday 25 June; Resolved, (b) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 30 June; That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence (c) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 2 July; is to be heard, the Committee shall sit in private until the witnesses are admitted.—(Chris Philp.) (d) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 7 July; (e) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 9 July; Resolved, (2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence the following table: received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(Chris Philp.) TABLE Day Time Witness The Chair: Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room. Thursday 25 June Until no later Jonathan Hall QC, than 12.30 pm Independent Reviewer of Terrorism 11.32 am Legislation The Committee deliberated in private. Thursday 25 June Until no later The National Police than 13.00 pm Chiefs’ Council Examination of Witness Thursday 25 June Until no later Prison Reform Trust Jonathan Hall QC gave evidence. than 14.30 pm Thursday 25 June Until no later The Northern Ireland than 15.00 pm Human Rights 11.34 am Commission The Chair: We will now hear evidence from Jonathan Thursday 25 June Until no later Law Society of Scotland Hall QC, who is the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism than 15.30 pm Legislation. Welcome, and thank you very much for Thursday 25 June Until no later Professor Donald coming. I think I am supposed to ask you to introduce than 16.00 pm Grubin, Newcastle University yourself, but I have just done that, so we will go straight into questioning. 5 Public Bill Committee25 JUNE 2020 Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill 6 Q1 Chris Philp: May I first take the opportunity to Jonathan Hall: Yes, I have worked it out. In one case thank you for your service as Independent Reviewer of it was a gap of a year, and in the second it was a gap of Terrorism Legislation, Mr Hall? The whole House is 16 months. very grateful for the work that you do in this area, and I want to put on the record our thanks to you for doing that. Q3 Chris Philp: In those hiatuses—those gaps—of between a year and almost a year and a half, there is I am sure we have all read the notes that you very clearly a risk to which the public is being exposed. The helpfully prepared on this legislation and published on rationale for the proposed changes is to remove the your website at the end of May and the beginning of possibility of that gap. June. I have them in front of me and have read them with great interest. Tostart, I want to ask about TPIMs— Jonathan Hall: What I would say is that the risk was terrorism prevention and investigation measures—which managed, as the law currently stands. There was a gap, were the subject of some debate on Second Reading. I but in fact, it is not as if something very bad happened want first to ask about the current circumstances in from those sources in that period, as far as I can work which a TPIM expires and has to be reapplied for from out, having read the materials that I have read. scratch without it being possible to use the previous evidence from two or more years before. Do you think there are circumstances in which public safety may still Q4 Chris Philp: But it is about risk; not all risks demand a TPIM beyond the two-year period? Are these actualise. A risk may exist, but no consequence may proposals a better way of handling it than the current follow. What we are trying to prevent with TPIMs is the method? risk itself. It is fair to say that the risk would have existed in that 12 to 16-month period. Jonathan Hall: The answer is yes, there are be circumstances in which someone ought to be subject to Jonathan Hall: Yes. controls for longer than two years. Yes, there will be circumstances in which it will be appropriate to rely on Q5 Chris Philp: You mentioned the burden of proof terrorism-related activity that predates the imposition earlier, which I am sure other Members will ask about of the first TPIM. I understand the business case, if you in due course. With the TPIM regime as it stands, very like, for allowing an extension beyond the two-year few TPIMs are actually enforced.