Volume 18 • Issue 2 • Summer 2018 IJCP

Academic Article confronting society today?

VEF: “What threatens contemporary A Simulated Interview man is the alleged meaninglessness of life” (Frankl, 1958, p. 20). with Viktor Frankl: Part 2 “Today, the will to meaning is often frustrated” (Frankl, 1966d, p. 252). “Man is no longer told by drives and - Searching for meaning instincts what he must do. And in contrast to man in former times, during times of despair he is no longer told by traditions and values what he should do” By James C. Overholser, Ph.D., ABPP, Case Western Reserve (Frankl, 1975, p. 91). “Soon he will University. not even know what he wants to do” (Frankl, 1963b, p. 27). “In an age of crumbling traditions … ever more people are caught in a feeling of aimlessness and emptiness” (Frankl, 1966b, p. 26).

JCO: How could this come about?

VEF: “Consider today’s society: it gratifies and satisfies every need – except for one, the need for meaning” (Frankl, 1978, p. 25). “Ever more people today have the means to live, but no meaning to live for (Frankl, 1978, p. 21). “Our young people are caught in an existential vacuum, an inner void and emptiness” (Frankl, 1969, p. 39).

JCO: I have known people who cope Abstract experiences to learn, understand, with stress by shopping and buying. iktor Frankl’s approach to respect, and manage situations How does this style fit with your Vpsychotherapy embraces some that involve pain, tragedy, and views? of the most difficult and complex death. The present manuscript problems encountered throughout explores Frankl’s ideas with a VEF: “Our industrial society is out life. Unlike many other forms of reliance on his own words, using a to satisfy every need” (Frankl, psychotherapy, Frankl confronts simulated dialogue format. 1981, p. 77), “and in its desire coping with tragic events, often to increase consumption it often shifting the focus onto meaning Interview: creates needs in order to satisfy and proper attitudes. These notions The goals of psychotherapy according them” (Frankl, 1984b, p. 6), “but are reviewed using a simulated to Viktor Emil Frankl (VEF) as the most human of all human interview format. interviewed by James C. Overholser needs – the need to see a meaning Throughout his career, Viktor (JCO)1. in one’s life – remains unsatisfied” Frankl has made numerous JCO: Let’s get started again. What (Frankl, 1987, p. 5). contributions to the field of do you see as the major problems psychotherapy, with his approach JCO: So is a lack of meaning focused on a search for meaning 1 Frankl often used the word “he” when we might the primary form of pathology a that helps clients triumph over now prefer the nonsexist phrase “they”, or “man” psychotherapist needs to confront? tragedy. Frankl relied on his life when we might prefer “human”.

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VEF: “No” (Frankl, 2000, p. 119). the patient to find meaning in life” VEF: “We may find meaning in “The feeling of meaninglessness (Frankl, 1967b, p. 141). “Meaning our lives through deed, through is not pathological” (Frankl, must be found” (Frankl, 2004a, work, through achievement 1959, p. 162). “What is sick is p. 9) “and it must be found by and accomplishment, through not necessarily wrong” (Frankl, oneself” (Frankl, 1972, p. 88). “It creativity” (Frankl, 1968b, p. 11). 2000, p. 75). “The will to meaning is never up to a therapist to convey “Most important, however, is … represents not only the most to the patient a picture of the world that of attitudes” (Frankl, 1980, human phenomenon possible, as the therapist sees it, but rather p. 8). “If we cannot change a but also that its frustration does to enable the patient to see the situation that causes our suffering, not necessarily signify something world as it is” (Frankl, 1961b, p. we can still choose our attitude” pathological” (Frankl, 1958b, p. 6). “A psychotherapist … is neither (Frankl, 1980, p. 8). 85). “Man’s search for a meaning a teacher nor a preacher” (Frankl, is … the surest sign of being truly 1962c, p. 27). “He resembles JCO: In your view, how can therapy human” (Frankl, 1962b, p. 94). an ophthalmologist more than a help clients to battle their painter” (Frankl, 1962c, p. 27). depression? JCO: Really? But I thought a “We … broaden his field of vision lack of meaning underlies the so that he will become aware of the VEF: “Man yearns for a reason to sense of despair. How is this not full spectrum of the possibilities” be happy” (Frankl, 1968b, p. 9). “If pathological? (Frankl, 2010, p. 89). “The man can find and fulfill a meaning therapist merely assists him in this in his life he becomes happy” VEF: “Despair need not necessarily endeavor” (Frankl, 1960a, p. 11). (Frankl, 2004b, p. 94). be pathological” (Frankl, 1958b, p. 84). “Despair is suffering without JCO: How does all of this work? JCO: But today, unemployment rates meaning” (Frankl, 1997a, p. 133). are high, clients are struggling “I can see beyond the misery of VEF: “We … promote the patient to financially, and many people suffer the situation to the potential for that point where he spontaneously from depression. discovering a meaning behind it, finds meaning” (Frankl, and thus to turn an apparently 1966/2016, p. 10). “The more VEF: “Depression does not entirely meaningless life into a genuine one is immersed and absorbed depend on whether people are human achievement” (Frankl, in something or someone other employed or not, but rather on 1997b, p. 46). “The striving to than oneself the more he really whether they consider their lives find a meaning in life is a primary becomes himself” (Frankl, 1975a p. meaningful or not” (Frankl, 1984b, motivational force in man (Frankl, 79). “Only as man withdraws from p. 6). “There is also an existential 1967a, p. 20). himself in the sense of releasing emptiness, and this we find in self-centered interest and attention people with work and without work, JCO: So everyone’s life has will he gain an authentic mode of in spite of work, and sometimes meaning? existence” (Frankl, 1960a, p. 13). even because of work” (Frankl, 1984b, p. 6). VEF: “Yes, of course” (Frankl, 2000, JCO: So a person should aim for p. 37). “The so-called life not self-actualization? JCO: Really? Emptiness continues worth living does not exist” (Frankl, despite successful employment? 1958c, p. 36). VEF: “Actually, man’s concern is not to fulfill himself or to actualize VEF: “It is possible to be caught JCO: How does a therapist promote himself, but to fulfill meaning and in existential despair despite meaning in a client’s life? to realize value” (Frankl, 1959, p. full success” (Frankl, 2010, p. 160). “The more one is immersed 148). “In ‘Executive’s Disease’ VEF: “In my opinion meaning is and absorbed in something or the frustrated will to meaning is something to be found rather than someone other than oneself the vicariously compensated by the will to be given” (Frankl, 1965, p. 57). more he really becomes himself” to power” (Frankl, 1967a, p. 125). “It is not the job of a doctor to give (Frankl, 1975, p. 79). “In addition to this” (Frankl, 1967a, meaning to the patient’s life. But p. 43) “the Sunday neurosis … it may well be his task, through JCO: In your opinion, what is the when the rush of the busy week an existential analysis, to enable best pathway to find meaning? stops on Sunday and the void

24 Irish Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy Volume 18 • Issue 2 • Summer 2018 IJCP within them suddenly becomes “The pursuit of happiness is self- VEF: “Right” (Frankl, 1971a, p. manifest” (Frankl, 1967a, p. 125). defeating … What man actually is 310). “Even the negative, the “Not only during leisure but also concerned with is to have a reason tragic aspects of human existence in old age, man is faced with the to be happy” (Frankl, 1968b, p. 9). … may be turned into something problem of how he should fill up his positive, something creative” time” (Frankl, 2010, p. 87). JCO: I am confused. How does it (Frankl, 1972, p. 88). work? JCO: So you feel the core problem in JCO: What about something extreme, most cases of depression is a lack VEF: “I cannot explain it” (Frankl, like when a young person dies? of meaning? 1966/2016, p. 9). “Pleasure is never the goal of striving, but only VEF: “Life’s transitoriness does VEF: “Correct” (Frankl, 2000, p. the effect which results when the not in the least detract from its 51). “Suicide proneness, violent striving obtains the desired goal” meaningfulness” (Frankl, 2010, behavior, and drug dependency, are, (Frankl, 1952, p. 128). “The more p. 118). “We cannot, after all, in fact, due to a lack, or loss, of one aims at pleasure, the more his judge a biography by its length, meaning” (Frankl, 2010, p. 203). aim is missed” (Frankl, 1966a, p. by the number of pages in it; we 98). “Pleasure … must remain, a must judge by the richness of the JCO: What about other problems? side-effect, or by-product, of attaining contents (Frankl, 1955a, p. 53). Many clients struggle because of a goal” (Frankl, 1966a, p. 98). “If life is meaningful, then it is so trauma and other major life events. “The harder a man tries to evade whether it is long or short” (Frankl, unpleasure, or suffering, the deeper 1958c, p. 33). VEF: “Pain, death, and guilt are he plunges himself into additional inescapable; the more the neurotic suffering” (Frankl, 1967a, p. 127). JCO: So even when a life has been tries to deny them, the more he cut short, it can be important and entangles himself in additional JCO: So can we just say that meaningful? suffering” (Frankl, 1967a, p. 88). happiness happens? “Even if we are the helpless victims VEF: “Right” (Frankl, 1990, p. 10). of a hopeless situation, facing a VEF: “Marvelous! That’s a good “If life is meaningful, then it is so fate that cannot be changed, we idea, not simplistic, but as simple whether it is long or short” (Frankl, may rise above ourselves, grow as truth allows” (Frankl, 1969, p. 1967a, p. 128). “Death … does beyond ourselves, and by so doing 38). “Success and happiness must not cancel the meaning of life change ourselves. We may turn a happen, and the less one cares for but rather is the very factor that personal tragedy into a triumph” them, the more they can” (Frankl, constitutes its meaning” (Frankl, (Frankl, 1980, p. 8). 1988, p. 35). “The more one tries to 1955a, p. 56). “Consider a movie: gain pleasure, the less one is able it consists of thousands upon JCO: Some behavioral strategies to obtain it” (Frankl, 1966d, p. 253). thousands of individual pictures, argue that clients can combat their and each of them makes sense depression by engaging in pleasant JCO: So what should a therapist and carries a meaning, yet the activities each day. do to help clients who are feeling meaning of the whole film cannot overwhelmed by problems? Is be seen before its last sequence VEF: “That is not true” (Frankl, Logotherapy the best approach? is shown” (Frankl, 1997a). “As the 1966/2016, p. 8). “It is the end belongs to the story, so death very pursuit of happiness that VEF: “I do not wish to convey the belongs to life” (Frankl, 1967a, p. thwarts happiness” (Frankl, impression that beneficial results 128). “Life has a meaning to the 1975, p. 85). “It is also similar were always obtained” (Frankl, last breath” (Frankl, 1954, p. 976). to sleep: if a person is bodily 1960b, p. 527). “Logotherapy is and mentally relaxed he falls not a panacea … it is justified to JCO: And therefore we all must learn asleep automatically. If, however, combine logotherapy with other how to deal with pain, death and he tensely and forcibly seeks methods” (Frankl, 1967c, p. 150). suffering? sleep, this very tenseness makes any relaxation impossible, and JCO: So you believe that attitude VEF: “Suffering is an ineradicable consequently there can be no changes provide the key to effective part of life” (Frankl, 1984a, p. sleep” (Frankl, 1952, p. 128). therapy? 88). “When a man finds that it

Irish Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy 25 IJCP Volume 18 • Issue 2 • Summer 2018 is his destiny to suffer, … his rather to see a meaning in his life” should, right now” (Frankl, 1990, p. unique opportunity lies in the way (Frankl, 1984a, p. 136). 7). “Man resembles a sculptor who in which he bears his burden” chisels and hammers the unshaped (Frankl, 1984a, p. 99). “If there is JCO: How can adversity be a good stone so that the material takes on a meaning in life at all, then there thing? more and more form … he attempts must be a meaning in suffering to ‘hammer out’ the values in his life (Frankl, 1968a, p. 5). VEF: “Life becomes all the more …the sculptor has a limited span of meaningful the more difficult it gets time at his disposal for completing JCO: So stress, conflict, and “ (Frankl, 1955a, p. 43). “The art his work of art – but that he is not problems can be good things? of the sailor is his ability to use informed when his deadline is” the wind in order to be driven in a (Frankl, 1955a, p. 53). VEF: “You are right” (Frankl, 2010, given direction so that he is able p. 155). to sail even against the wind” JCO: So we create our identity (Frankl, 1955a, p. 69). “Just as through our daily actions? JCO: So problems and struggles a small fire is extinguished by the can be good because they test your storm while a large fire is enhanced VEF: You are right” (Frankl, 2010, character and make you stronger? by it – likewise a weak faith is p. 155). “Our answer must consist, weakened by predicaments and not in talk and meditation, but in VEF: “Exactly!” (Frankl, in Scully, catastrophes, whereas a strong right action” (Frankl, 1984, p. 98). 1995, p. 4). “Stress is by no means faith is strengthened by them” “Man not only behaves according to always and necessarily pathogenic (Frankl, 1997a, p. 19). what he is, he also becomes what or disease producing” (Frankl, he is according to how he behaves” 2010, p. 222). “What man actually JCO: Most people fear death and (Frankl, 1967a, p. 35). “What he needs is not a tension-less state become quite upset when a loved becomes – within the limits of but rather the striving and struggling one dies. What is your view about endowment and environment – he for some goal worthy of him” death and mortality? has made himself” (Frankl, 1967a, (Frankl, 1962a, p. 112). “Mental p. 35). “One’s own life is the answer health is based on a certain degree VEF: “The fear of aging and dying is to the question of the meaning of of tension, the tension between pervasive in the present culture” life” (Frankl, 2010, p. 46). what one has already achieved and (Frankl, 2010, p. 118). “In some what he still ought to accomplish, respects it is death itself that JCO: We might want to take another or the gap between what he is and makes life meaningful” (Frankl, break. Would that be okay? what he should become” (Frankl, 2000, p. 29). “We do an injustice 2010, p. 63). to death by believing that it VEF: “Of course” (Frankl, 1974, deprives and robs life of meaning” p. 10). JCO: How do you help clients adjust (Frankl, 1990, p. 8). to pain, loss and mortality? JCO: but doesn’t the ever-present VEF: “Even the negative aspects of threat of death have a harmful References human existence such as suffering, effect on people? guilt, and death can still be turned Frankl, V.E. (1952). The pleasure into something positive, provided VEF: “In every moment the human principle and sexual neurosis. that they are faced with the right person is steadily molding and forging International Journal of Sexology, 5, attitude” (Frankl, 1967c, p. 144). his own character” (Frankl, 1961a, 128-130. p. 7). “The essential transitoriness Frankl, V.E. (1954). The concept of JCO: How does a person develop of human existence itself adds to man in psychotherapy. Proceedings of the ‘right’ attitude? life’s meaningfulness. If man were the Royal Society of Medicine, 47 (1), immortal, he would be justified in 975-980. VEF: “Suffering ceases to be delaying everything: there would be Frankl, V.E. (1955a). The doctor and the suffering at the moment it finds a no need to do anything right now” soul. New York: Bantam Books. meaning (Frankl, 1984a, p. 135). (Frankl, 1971a, p. 307). “Only under Frankl, V.E. (1958a). Discovering the “Man’s main concern is not to the threat and pressure of death does whole man. Saturday Review, September gain pleasure or to avoid pain but it make sense to do what we can and 13, p. 20.

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Frankl, V.E. (1958b). The will to Frankl, V.E. (1967b). Logotherapy and Frankl, V.E. (1997a). Man’s search for meaning. Journal of Pastoral Care, 12, existentialism. Psychotherapy, 4 (3), ultimate meaning. Reading, MA: Perseus 82-88. 138-142. Books. Frankl, V.E. (1958c). On logotherapy and Frankl, V.E. (1967c). Logotherapy. Frankl, V.E. (1997b). Meaning in my life: existential analysis. American Journal of Israel Annals of Psychiatry and Related Autobiographical reflections. Tikkun, 12 Psychoanalysis, 18 (1). 28 - 37. Disciplines, 5 (2), 142-155. (3), 46-48. Frankl, V.E. (1959). The spiritual Frankl, V.E. (1968a). Experiences in a Frankl, V.E. (2000). Recollections: dimension in existential analysis concentration camp. Jewish Heritage, 11 An autobiography. Cambridge Mass: and logotherapy. Journal of Individual (2), 5 -7. Perseus. Psychology, 15 (2), 157-165. Frankl, V.E. (1968b). The search for Frankl, V.E. (2004a). On the theory and Frankl, V.E. (1960a). Beyond self- meaning. Jewish Heritage, 11 (2), therapy of mental disorders. New York: actualization and self-expression. 8-11. Brunner-Routledge. Journal of Existential Psychiatry, 1 (1), 5-20. Frankl, V.E. (1969). The cosmos and the Frankl, V.E. (2004b). Logos, paradox, mind. Pace, 5 (8), 34-39. and the search for meaning. In A. Frankl, V.E. (1960b). Paradoxical Freeman, M. Mahoney, P. Devito, intention. American Journal of Frankl, V.E. (1971a). Existential & D. Martin (Eds), Cognition and Psychotherapy, 14 (3), 520-535. escapism. Omega, 2 (4), 307-311. psychotherapy, 2nd Ed (pp. 83-100). Frankl, V.E. (1961a). Dynamics, Frankl, V.E. (1972). The feeling of New York: Springer. meaninglessness: A challenge to existence and values. Journal of Frankl, V.E. (2010). The feeling of Existential Psychiatry, 2 (5), 5-16. psychotherapy. American Journal of Psychoanalysis, 32 (1), 85-89. meaningless. Milwaukee: Marquette Frankl, V.E. (1961b). Logotherapy and University Press. Frankl, V.E. (1974). The the challenge of suffering. Review of Scully, M. (1995). Viktor Frankl at Existential Psychology and Psychiatry, 1, depersonalization of sex. Synthesis, 1 (1), 9-13. ninety: An interview. First Things, 52 3 -7. (April), 39-43. Frankl, V.E. (1962a). Basic concepts Frankl, V.E. (1948 / 1975). The of logotherapy. Journal of Existential unconscious God. New York: Simon and Schuster. Psychiatry, 3 (9), 111-118. James C. Overholser Frankl, V.E. (1962b). Psychiatry and Frankl, V.E. (1978). The unheard cry man’s quest for meaning. Journal of for meaning. New York: Simon and Religion and Health, 1 (2), 93-103. Schuster. James C. Overholser, Ph.D., Frankl, V.E. (1963b). Existential Frankl, V.E. (1978 / 1979). Logotherapy. ABPP is a Licensed Psychologist dynamics and neurotic escapism. International Forum for Logotherapy, 1 and Professor of Psychology at Journal of Existential Psychiatry, 4 (13), (1), 22-23. Case Western Reserve University 27-41. Frankl, V.E. (1980). Psychotherapy on in Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A. He Frankl, V.E. (1965). The concept of man its way to rehumanism. International serves as a researcher at in logotherapy. Journal of Existentialism, Forum for Logotherapy, 3 (2), 3-9. the local Veteran’s hospital, 6 (21), 53-58. Frankl, V.E. (1981). The future of and he provides outpatient Frankl, V.E. (1966a). Self-transcendence logotherapy. International Forum for psychotherapy through a local as a human phenomenon. Journal of Logotherapy, 4 (2), 71-78. charity clinic. As a practicing Humanistic Psychology, 6 (2), 97-106. Frankl, V.E. (1984a). Man’s search for clinical psychotherapist, he relies Frankl, V.E. (1966b). What is meant by meaning, revised. New York: Washington on evidence-based practice with meaning? Journal of Existentialism, 7 Square Press. a cognitive-behavioral orientation. (25), 21-28. Frankl, V.E. (1984b). The meaning However, while teaching courses Frankl, V.E. (1966d). Logotherapy and crisis in the first world and hunger in on psychotherapy, he developed existential analysis. American Journal of the third world. International Forum for an interest in Existential Analysis Psychotherapy, 20 (2), 252-260. Logotherapy, 7 (1), 5 -7. and Viktor Frankl’s views on Frankl, V.E. (1966/2016). Questions Frankl, V.E. (1987). On the meaning Logotherapy, an area that seems and answers, June 30, 1966. In of love. International Forum for to be neglected in this age of A. Batthyany (ed.) Logotherapy Logotherapy, 10 (1), 5-8. manualized treatments. and Existential Analysis (pp. 7-12). Frankl, V.E. (1988). The will to meaning, Switzerland: Springer. expanded edition. New York: Meridian. Jim can be contacted at Frankl, V. (1967a). Psychotherapy and Frankl, V.E. (1990). Facing the [email protected] existentialism. New York: Simon and transitoriness of human existence. Schuster. Generations, 14 (4), 7-10).

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