Vol. 765 Thursday No. 54 22 October 2015

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introductions: Lord O’Shaughnessy and Baroness Stroud ...... 777 Questions HS2 ...... 777 House of Lords: Appointments...... 779 Financial Services: Competition ...... 781 Syria and Iraq: Airspace...... 783 Enterprise Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 786 Private Ownership Motion to Take Note...... 786 Zhang Kai Statement...... 812 Education and Employment Opportunities Motion to Take Note...... 815 Chilcot Inquiry Question for Short Debate...... 851

Grand Committee Lyme Disease Question for Short Debate ...... GC 25 Universal Declaration on Human Rights: Article 18 Question for Short Debate ...... GC 40 Armed Forces: Reserves Question for Short Debate ...... GC 56 Palliative Care Question for Short Debate ...... GC 72 Nuclear Technology Question for Short Debate ...... GC 86

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2015, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 777 Introduction: Lord O’Shaughnessy[22 OCTOBER 2015] HS2 778

also give the potential to deliver much better train House of Lords services to large numbers of towns and cities. I am acutely aware of the challenges she has raised about Thursday, 22 October 2015. there not being enough capacity for people, but part of 11 am what HS2 will do is deliver extra capacity to places such as Coventry, Rugby and Milton Keynes. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester. Lord Berkeley (Lab): My Lords, I have read AP3—the Introduction: Lord O’Shaughnessy latest additional provision from HS2, which he mentioned 11.08 am to the noble Baroness—and I can see nothing in it about the effects of construction, particularly the James Richard O’Shaughnessy, Esquire, having been disruption which will be caused, around Euston and created Baron O’Shaughnessy, of Maidenhead in the many other sites up the line, by construction lorries. I Royal County of Berkshire, was introduced and took the understand that, for three years during construction, oath, supported by Lord Nash and Baroness Evans of there will be about 720 trucks a day leaving the Camden Bowes Park, and signed an undertaking to abide by the area with spoil. I declare an interest as chairman of Code of Conduct. the Rail Freight Group, but surely HS2 should look at moving as many materials as possible by rail. Introduction: Baroness Stroud Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The noble Lord raises 11.14 am a quite valid point. We are looking at the issue of Philippa Claire Stroud, having been created Baroness disruption from HS2. Again, there are lessons to be Stroud, of Fulham in the London Borough of Hammersmith learned from places such as London Bridge, Blackfriars, and Fulham, was introduced and took the oath, supported Reading and Birmingham and they are being applied by Lord Freud and Lord Farmer, and signed an undertaking in the development of Euston to ensure that we mitigate to abide by the Code of Conduct. whatever disruption there may be, not just to the rail and Tube networks, but to the surrounding local HS2 communities as well. Question Viscount Ridley (Con): My Lords, could my noble 11.18 am friend confirm that the economic case for HS2, as Asked by Baroness Seccombe published by HS2 Ltd in 2013, includes £8.3 billion of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment benefits that are actually cuts to existing services, they have made of the effect of the construction of under the phrase “released capacity”? HS2 on the running of existing rail services. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I think the economic The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department case for HS2 is well made. for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, as part of the hybrid Bill and subsequent Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, undoubtedly additional provisions, HS2 Ltd is required to assess the the work on Euston station will be disruptive for existing impact of the construction works on the operational passengers and, in my view, unnecessarily expensive. railway. These assessments have been undertaken and Will the Minister agree at least to investigate the are documented in the environmental statement and alternative proposals put forward by the Euston Express supplementary environmental statements. Our assessment group and to look at a more intensive use of Old Oak also includes close working with the relevant train Common, which would act as a useful route into London, operators, and we will continue to work with them to on a large scale, once Crossrail has links with it? minimise disruption throughout the development of Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The noble Baroness the overall project. raises the issue of Old Oak Common, which has been Baroness Seccombe (Con): My Lords, on Monday part of the consideration for HS2. Let me assure her, of this week I travelled by train from Banbury to London and indeed the whole House, that once we have completed and was dismayed to see that some people were unable the works for HS2 at Euston its capacity, as I am sure to get a seat and stood for the whole of the journey, which she is aware, will go from 18 platforms to 22. These is around 60 minutes. HS2 will cost tens of billions of enhancements will help not only with access into pounds and the cost is obviously still rising. Surely it London but also across London. would be better, and provide greater benefit to the comfort and well-being of thousands of people, if the Lord Grocott (Lab): Can the Minister confirm the money were spent instead on other lines up and down uncanny resemblance of the objections to HS2 being the country and, indeed, across the country. That voiced in this House now to the objections voiced in would mean that we could have longer trains, longer the 1830s to the building of the original London to carriages and, if necessary, longer platforms, but the Birmingham railway? Does he rejoice, as I do, that the important thing is that people should travel in comfort. objectors lost that battle eventually? I commend the Government for their persistence in building what is a Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I assure my hugely important infrastructure project for Britain noble friend that, as I am sure she is aware, HS2 will be today. Will the Minister also confirm that, should it getting underway, and we look forward to it beginning not be built, the effect on the existing west coast main in 2017. I give her the added assurance that HS2 will line of continued and growing overcapacity would be 779 HS2[LORDS] House of Lords: Appointments 780

[LORD GROCOTT] Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): Why? endless delays, weekend occupation of the line and all the problems associated with the construction of a Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I like my noble friend’s railway while it is still attempting to run? style this morning. Because it is for the leaders of political parties to come forward with their own nominations, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I do agree with the noble mindful of the needs of this House, and to ensure that Lord, although I am a bit perturbed by his suggestion the people they put forward will make a contribution that I was around in the 1830s—perhaps he is suggesting to this House and that this House will perform its I have aged at the Dispatch Box. Nevertheless, there is responsibilities effectively. But it is not appropriate for a valid case to be made here. The primary case for HS2 the House of Lords Appointments Commission to is establishing links throughout the whole country but look at the suitability of those nominations. We should it is also important, as the noble Lord said, to address not underestimate the role of the House of Lords the capacity challenges we currently face on our rail Appointments Commission in looking at propriety. network. One of the things it considers is past conduct of Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): Does the Minister nominees and it would certainly look at whether there agree that the real economic case for HS2 depends on its was anything there that might bring the House of extension to Edinburgh and Glasgow? Since there are Lords into disrepute. So its role in this matter is no objections to it in the north of England and Scotland, actually quite extensive. would it not be sensible to start building now, as quickly as possible, in the north of England and Scotland? Baroness Boothroyd (CB): Is the noble Baroness That would also provide a market for British steel. aware that the Prime Minister has created more Peers in five years than Margaret Thatcher did in 11, and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I commend the noble that the escalating size of this House has rightly Lord—he is a great champion for Scotland and for the shocked public opinion? Will she urge Mr Cameron to United Kingdom. The investment we are making in stem this inflow before we enter the Guinness book of our rail network across the board, not just in HS2, records as the largest assembly in the world? Will she underlines our commitment to ensuring that the whole advise the Prime Minister to concentrate on the expertise country is connected. As the noble Lord will be aware, and proven commitment to public service of his we have laid plans: we are moving forward with the appointments? Finally, will she assure him that we first stage of HS2 in 2017, and great investment is shall continue to scrutinise the legislation before us as being made in transport for the north and connectivity closely as ever, despite his evident disregard for the across Scotland. He makes a very valid point about efficient workings of our bicameral Parliament? connectivity across the country, and it is certainly a principle that I support. Baroness Stowell of Beeston: The noble Baroness is absolutely right to highlight the importance of Lord Mawhinney (Con): My Lords, my noble friend all Members of your Lordships’ House conducting just talked about enhancing HS2 links across the themselves in a way that contributes to the very serious country—links which are much needed, and the sooner role we all have. I know that all noble Lords in this the better. Can he tell your Lordships’ House how he House take their responsibilities very seriously, and all intends to strengthen the links between HS2 and HS1? those new Peers joining us at this time are very mindful Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Across the network, of those responsibilities—as is the Prime Minister, in with HS1 and HS2 and, as my noble friend will be terms of the role of this House in scrutinising legislation. aware, the plans we have for transport for the north, That is something that we feel very strongly about. overall we are investing more than £38 billion in the rail network, which will strengthen links not only with Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, if the the existing network but with HS2, HS1 and, through press reports are to be believed, the House of Commons Transport for the North, HS3. Appointments Commission will be very busy. As the Minister knows, we have totally opposed the Government’s House of Lords: Appointments plans on tax credits and the noble Baroness, Lady Question Hollis, will be asking this House not to support government proposals until they include changes that 11.26 am address the concerns that have been raised across this Asked by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean House, including by members of her own party. As the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Minister also knows, the amendment tabled by the will require the appointments commission to vet noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, is entirely reasonable political nominations to the House of Lords using and—as confirmed by the House authorities—is in the same criteria as currently applied to crossbench accordance with the conventions and role of our House. Peers and thus consider suitability as well as propriety. The Government are now threatening to either suspend your Lordships’ House or to create 150 new Conservative The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) Peers to ensure that they never lose again. Does she (Con): My Lords, the House of Lords Appointments consider this to be an appropriate, statesmanlike response Commission was established to make recommendations or a gross and irresponsible overreaction, particularly for non-party peerages, using an established set of since government estimates indicate the cost to the criteria, and to vet all those nominated as life Peers for public purse will be around half a billion pounds? propriety. It remains for the leaders of political parties Would that money not be better spent on mitigating to account for their nominations. these awful cuts? 781 House of Lords: Appointments[22 OCTOBER 2015] Financial Services: Competition 782

Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I know that and services to customers. The UK is already a global all noble Lords are always sceptical about what they hub for financial technology—fin-tech—and our ambition read in the newspapers. I refer the House to what my is to make the UK the global hub for fin-tech. We have right honourable friend the Prime Minister said yesterday already taken a number of steps to achieve this and we when he was in the other place. He was very clear then continue to look at ways to support this exciting sector. about the role of this House. About Monday, the primacy of the House of Commons on financial matters Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con): My Lords, alternative has been respected by this House for over 400 years, as finance is, indeed, a great British success story. We my right honourable friend the Prime Minister alluded have a real opportunity to close the finance gap which to yesterday when he was responding to a question. has held back small and medium-sized enterprises for The noble Baroness makes reference to one of the decades. I congratulate the Government on what they amendments that have been tabled for Monday. If any have done so far in this area, and ask my noble friend of those amendments is passed on Monday, the statutory what more they will do to ensure that small and instrument will not have been approved and that will medium-sized enterprises are aware of the full breadth be in direct contrast to the House of Commons already of finance options available to them. approving that statutory instrument and reaffirming its view only this week when asked to consider it again. Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, to support the development of diverse finance markets for smaller Lord Tyler (LD): My Lords, the exchanges have businesses, the Government have established the British already touched on the constitutional role of your Business Bank, which brings together new and existing Lordships’ House. Has the noble Baroness read the schemes into a single, commercially minded institution. article which appeared in the Huffington Post on Tuesday, The Chancellor also announced the launch of the which is clearly the result of a briefing from the Business Banking Insight survey. This will help the Treasury, headed “Tories Threaten To Suspend House UK’s SMEs to understand their options, make decisions of Lords” and which says that: about who they should bank with and plan how they “One option is to simply suspend the Lords’ entire business, will finance their growth. Lastly, the Federation of and process bills purely through the Commons”? Small Businesses survey found that more SMEs reported Maybe she would care to explain how that could be that credit was affordable and available than at any achieved. Could she take the opportunity to have a time since 2012. quiet word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, say that perhaps he is spending too much time with the Baroness Kramer (LD): My Lords, the phenomenal Chinese, and remind him that the last person who and brilliant success of peer-to-peer lending is a vindication attempted to shut down a House of Parliament was of this House, which in 2012 effectively strong-armed King Charles I? What happened to him? the Treasury into recognising that the industry both wanted and needed regulation in order to grow. Now, Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, as far as with UK-based peer-to-peers expanding across the the Government are concerned, this House has a very European Union and new peer-to-peers springing up important role in scrutinising the Government’s legislation there, will the Government commit to work with and I am very confident that all Members of this Governments of other EU countries and the Commission House want to do that effectively. I want to provide to avoid what is turning into regulatory chaos, so that the opportunity for this House to discharge its very this is a single market from the beginning? important responsibilities in a way which is consistent with its role and which respects the primacy of the Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, the Government House of Commons on matters financial, and I am are certainly anxious to have a proper regulatory confident that on Monday that is what Members of system and will of course do whatever they can to your Lordships’ House will want to do. make sure that we do not have regulatory chaos. Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): But, my Lords, the Financial Services: Competition Government’s efforts to improve competition in the Question banking industry are lamentable. Two years ago, they introduced measures to encourage banks to offer more 11.34 am information to account customers, and the result is Asked by Lord Holmes of Richmond that only 3% of customers change their accounts in any year. It is quite clear that something more significant To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of needs to be done and the Government need to take the Competition and Markets Authority’s investigation action to improve competition against a background into personal current accounts and banking services where 77% of current accounts and 85% of SMEs are for small and medium-sized enterprises, whether with the big four banks. I remind the House that two they intend to support further the financial technology of those banks were bailed out only a few years ago. sector in providing greater competition across financial services. Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, the switching service which the Government introduced has enabled Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, the 2.1 million customers to switch. We agree that that Government are committed to improving competition should be increased, but the noble Lord omitted to in financial services and welcome technological innovation mention that the CMA report out this morning stated that incentivises firms to provide the best products that the switching service is functioning reasonably 783 Financial Services: Competition[LORDS] Syria and Iraq: Airspace 784

[LORD ASHTON OF HYDE] coalition, we are not going to be able to put together a well. Of course, we understand that switching accounts package that will enable us to destroy ISIL, which is can only improve competition. We fully support the the group that we have to destroy because it is the CMA’s provisional report and await its final report greatest threat. I urge the noble Earl to encourage the next spring, when we hope that it will have some Foreign Office and our Government to get involved in sensible and useful recommendations. these discussions and perhaps to get some form of contact group going so that we can move forward and Lord Cashman (Lab): My Lords, will the Minister destroy this very real threat. ask the department to investigate the current barriers placed in the way of new charities trying to open bank Earl Howe: The noble Lord makes a series of important accounts with the major banks? They face difficulties points. There are two issues here: one is air safety over and refusals based primarily on money-laundering Syria and the other is the end to the conflict. On air directives. This is inhibiting the charitable sector, safety, the memorandum of understanding provides a particularly the small charities. considerable degree of assurance on the matter of Lord Ashton of Hyde: I agree that anything that Syrian airspace. He is quite right, however, that ultimately, inhibits charities’ proper functioning is to be deprecated. the only way that we can end the conflict satisfactorily On the other hand, we have to ensure that money- is to have a political solution, which will demand the laundering regulations are applied; they are very buy-in of the major powers and regional states. important. Of course, money laundering hurts the beneficiaries of charities as well and must be taken Lord Elton (Con): My Lords, will these discussions seriously, but we are trying to make a more proportionate include one on the separation of pilotless guided missiles, regulatory response, and the FCA and the PRA are which at present intersect horizontally with the civilian working on that at the moment. flight paths that lie between the point of launch and the point of intended contact? Syria and Iraq: Airspace Question Earl Howe: My Lords, the United States is not making the MoU public, so I cannot go into a 11.39 am huge amount of detail on its content, other than what Asked by Lord West of Spithead the US has publicly released, which is that the MoU is aimed at minimising the risk of in-flight incidents To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions between coalition and Russian aircraft and includes they have had with Russia about co-ordinating the specific safety protocols for aircrews to follow. The US use of airspace over Syria and Iraq. and Russia will be forming a working group to discuss any implementation issues, which will no doubt include The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl those raised by my noble friend. Howe) (Con): My Lords, before I respond to the noble Lord, I am sure that the whole House would wish to Baroness Jolly (LD): My Lords, what evidence do join me in paying tribute to Flight Lieutenant Alan the Government have to allow them to be confident Scott of 33 Squadron and Flight Lieutenant Geraint about the safety of our missions into Syria and Iraq, Roberts of 230 Squadron, of RAF Benson in Oxfordshire, given the proliferation of armed and surveillance drones whose Puma helicopter crashed on approach to land over these territories? Will the Minister also tell the at NATO’s Resolute Support mission headquarters in House what discussions the coalition has had about Kabul, Afghanistan, on 11 October. Our thoughts are this particular issue? with their families and friends at this very difficult time. Our thoughts are also with the families of the two US service personnel and one French civilian who Earl Howe: I have already referred to the memorandum lost their lives, and with the five other NATO personnel of understanding, which, as I have said, is a major step who were injured. forward in terms of avoiding unwanted incidents over Syrian airspace. The protocols to which I referred The UK has had no conversations with Russia include maintaining professional airmanship at all about this issue. The United States, on behalf of the times, the use of specific communication frequencies, global coalition to counter ISIL, of which the UK is a and the establishment of a communication line on the member, has had discussions with Russia on the safe ground. But it is worth noting that, by and large, the separation of aircraft and air safety, resulting in a reconnaissance effort that the coalition is putting in is memorandum of understanding on the prevention of directed to the east of Syria, whereas the Russian flight safety incidents. action is largely in the west of that country. Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and I am delighted to see Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab): My Lords, I join that he is wearing a red poppy. I am slightly disappointed with the condolences that the Minister extended to the by his Answer, because I would have liked to have families and the loved ones of those who have died in thought that the UK was involved in these discussions. our services and others. It goes more broadly: I think that there is a lack of Some three months ago, when I asked the Minister willingness to understand the truth of what is happening whether the Government considered ISIL or Assad the on the ground, and that is a recipe for losing wars. greatest threat, he unhesitatingly responded that the Unless we start to discuss and talk with Russia, Iran greatest threat was ISIL—a view with which I agree. and—I am afraid—the butcher Assad, and all the Does it not make sense to shoot the wolf nearest the 785 Syria and Iraq: Airspace[22 OCTOBER 2015] Private Ownership 786 sledge first? In other words, whatever the controversy Enterprise Bill [HL] of wider discussions with Russia and Iran and whatever Order of Consideration Motion our differences with them, will he bear in mind when considering this question the wise words of Winston 11.48 am Churchill when criticised for a working alliance with Josef Stalin and the Soviet Union: “I dare say that if Moved by Lord Gardiner of Kimble Herr Hitler invaded hell, I would have a good word to That it be an instruction to the Grand Committee say for the devil”? In other words, can we maximise to which the Enterprise Bill [HL] has been committed those forces that share our view about the greatest that they consider the bill in the following order: threat being ISIL? Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 13, Schedule 2, Clauses 14 to 17, Schedule 3, Clauses 18 to 26, Earl Howe: My Lords, in considering that question Schedule 4, Clauses 27 to 31, Title. we need to remember that Assad is a man who has barrel-bombed his own civilians and caused untold Motion agreed. suffering among the Syrian population. He cannot form part of any eventual permanent solution to the Private Ownership conflict, and for that reason we cannot countenance Motion to Take Note taking any action which might serve to strengthen the current Syrian regime. 11.50 am Moved by Lord Howell of Guildford Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, following the comments of the noble Lord, Lord West, which I That this House takes note of the case for private broadly support, can my noble friend say what steps ownership of industries and institutions in the United we or the coalition are taking to reinforce the efforts of Kingdom. Jordan to establish two buffer zones north of Jordan in areas presently held by ISIL and establish a safe Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, as this haven area or two? Is this not a very important first is my first proper opportunity, I wish at the outset to step towards meeting the challenge of the source of pay my personal tribute to the late Lord Howe of the problem: namely, the poisonous ISIL movement Aberavon, who was my friend, mentor and inspiration itself, from which all our problems stem? for many years. His role in our nation is not unrelated to the subject that we are debating in this Motion, Earl Howe: My Lords, this idea has obvious immediate since he brought sense and moderation to the great appeal. But when one drills down into the practicalities issue of unravelling Britain’s overcentralised and socialised one soon realises that there are serious obstacles to industrial structure and saw the future in strictly practical, creating so-called safe havens or buffer zones in any rather than ideological, terms. Speaking of balance part of Syria. Those zones would need to be policed and moderation, I very greatly look forward to the and reinforced. If they were not, we would see a repeat maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Young, whose of what we had in Bosnia with the Srebrenica massacre, almost proverbial balance of common sense and and the sheer effort of putting men on the ground to moderation will undoubtedly be a great asset to this ensure that those safe areas really were safe would be House in dealing with this kind of subject and many enormous. others. I suppose that, if I was a die-hard, last-ditch, put- Lord Dannatt (CB): My Lords, I agree wholeheartedly the-clock-back, old-school Tory I would be on the side with what the noble Lord, Lord Reid, just said about of Mr Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party, who shooting the wolf closest to the sledge, and I have clearly wants to return to the past and is, I understand, heard that the memorandum is beginning to increase firmly committed to the renationalisation of the railways co-operation between air forces operating in the Iraq-Syria and, as far as I know, maybe much else as well—I am airspace. Can the noble Earl say when this House and not quite sure about that. However, as I belong to the other House will be consulted on the extension of neither that wing of the Tory party nor, needless to Royal Air Force operations of an offensive nature over say, Mr Corbyn’s circle either, I will be taking a different Syrian airspace so that we can slay that wolf that is view, and one that I hope that, in this House at least, is nearest to the sledge as soon as possible? fairly uncontroversial. After all, at about the last dinner and discussion I had with the late Baroness Thatcher Earl Howe: My Lords, my right honourable friend while she was still well, she repeatedly warned me that the Prime Minister has made very clear that ISIL life would be difficult for us as Conservatives because needs to be destroyed in Syria as well as Iraq. He was Mr Blair had pinched all her best policies, notably her clear when he said that that there is a strong case for us commitment to privatisation of large swathes of British to do more in Syria. But, as he also said, it would be industry. She thought he had carried on with and better if there were a consensus supporting such action taken one of her best ideas. in the House of Commons. His views on that have not Of course, the seeds of privatisation go back long changed, but what has changed is the growing evidence before that, and were really planted back in 1970 under that ISIL poses an increasing threat to us here in this the Heath Government, when we attempted to bring country. I cannot give the noble Lord a date on which in for the first time systematic questioning of whether such a vote might take place, but before that we would every programme and function of central government clearly need to be sure that that political consensus should be in the public sector at all or organised in was there. different ways. However, 1997 was one of the defining 787 Private Ownership[LORDS] Private Ownership 788

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] its own foreign policy, would or should ever exist moments in the privatisation story, because it was the again. It was unmanageable, uncontrollable, impossible recognition that a modern social-democratic, forward- and fascinating. looking party, as Labour then was, could live with, That brings me to my first point, about why and and actually carry forward and develop, the privatisation how privatisation took off: it was the realisation that programme idea. My theme in my comments will be state ownership was not only hopelessly overcentralised that the continuing privatisation trend of the last but was not even a good means of control. On the 30 years or so, both here and around the world, contrary, private ownership with proper regulation including incidentally in Russia and China, has been stood a far better chance. Nationalised industries had basically technological and the inseparable child of their own empires, far removed from the accountability the digital age and the information revolution, rather that the world wanted, the pressures of the market than ideological. and, indeed, the pressures of the customer. That was There may have been instances where it has gone our first motive. too far and too fast, or where the results have been Our second motive was embodied by the word disappointing. I do not disguise that I wanted a different “innovation”. We could see that, because no competition pattern of railway privatisation from the one that was with nationalised industries was allowed—that was by actually adopted, and if I am told once more on the law, and so we had to change the law—the incentive to telephone when trying to contact a privatised energy innovate was minimal. That was the case for a whole utility that my call is important to them and to hang chunk of British industry, and that had to change. on for 20 minutes and then be told I have five choices, none of which works, I shall go berserk. None the less, Our third motive was that the public sector just I believe that going back to the alternative of state could not deliver the capital that these industries ownership of the main utility industries would be a needed to modernise. The investment needs of these much bigger disaster, if indeed it could nowadays be vast industries was constantly being undermined by done at all. short-term budget needs, which were eating away at their programmes. For me, the apogee of the old lumbering, non- innovative, hopelessly overcentralised state ownership—so Finally, and in my case primarily, some of us wanted called public ownership, but of course the public and a bit of genuine public ownership—not the bogus sort, the customer had virtually no say at all—came when I where a few Whitehall bosses ruled the roost, but the assumed responsibility for the then Department of truly public and widespread ownership of a capital-owning Energy in 1979. There I realised that I was entering a democracy turning earners into owners. We thought colossal and overloaded ministry, the department at that privatisation was the road to that. That is what the centre of just about everything, covering more the Chancellor was talking about the other day, with than 20% of British industry and the most vital parts his plans to build a share-owning democracy and sell at that. It was the department of oil shocks, the Shah Lloyds Bank shares to retail investors. Actually, in having just fallen; the department of militant miners, those days, we were going to go even further, and I still with Arthur Scargill itching to have a go at the new think we should, and build a society in which as many Tory Government; the department of colossal investment as possible, at all levels, have some form of ownership programmes in mammoth nationalised industries; the of capital or property or other form of savings—a department of booming North Sea oil, with a state oil really widespread stake in the capitalist process, giving company owning and trading one of the largest volumes security and dignity to as many people as possible of oil on the planet; the department that had to keep rather than total wage dependence. alongside rising OPEC power; the department of nuclear Employee share ownership was also part of that energy; the department of the vast British Gas empire, story. In fact, one of the most successful privatisations under its formidable boss, Sir Denis Rooke; the department of the early days, which I personally presided over and of the Central Electricity Generating Board and all its which was initiated by my noble friend Lord Fowler 12 or 13 area electricity companies; the department of with great foresight when he was Transport Secretary the National Coal Board; the department that had before me, was the National Freight Corporation sale, relations with all the international oil companies; the which enormously benefited all its staff and employees. department that owned 51% of BP; the department of So what are the lessons for today from this initial global energy turmoil, soaring oil and gas prices, and wave of privatisation and its continuation through the threatened oil shortages, which were rocking the whole whole decade under a Labour Government, as well as world’s economy. In short, it was a department of in many countries around the world, regardless of Soviet proportions, supposedly presiding over a huge their types of government? socialised sector employing millions of people, a consumer of billions of pounds, in a world that was, in fact, First, as I have suggested, the public interest, in the coming to the end of its time. sense of defeating monopoly tendencies and protecting the customer and consumer, often stands a better Looking back, I can see that we were poised on the chance through the good regulation of private industry pivoting moment of the 20th century, as state mega- rather than old-style state ownership and control. I ownership and centralisation was finally choking itself could not help laughing when, the other day, I heard a to death and the digital era of decentralisation, union leader saying that the nationalised industries denationalisation, privatisation and the rising market would be run, state was about to begin. Nothing like that immense departmental empire, with the fate of the whole “in the interests of passengers and the taxpayers”. government and economy on its plate and almost with He clearly had a very short memory. 789 Private Ownership[22 OCTOBER 2015] Private Ownership 790

Secondly, there was that famous phrase about industries between the consumer and the producer, I privatisation from Harold Macmillan—that we were believe that the modern information revolution will selling off “the family silver”. It always seemed a funny take this process forward far faster than most people kind of silver if it was costing £2.5 billion a year, as it realise, breaking down whole monopolies, both public was in 1979, to hold on to and upkeep. Yet,10 years later, and private. If we are going to see the transformation it was paying back £60 billion to the Exchequer in taxes of the world’s energy mix, as many desire, this will alone. That does not make sense of the silver analogy; depend on the flexibility and openness of our former I think the great Harold Macmillan was wrong there. energy and utility companies. Freezing them back into Thirdly, one ought not to be too dogmatic about state monoliths is the very last way to help that process. different types of privatisation, including models where We need not a return to ideology—on the railways the state retains a degree of ownership. There have been or anywhere else—but an advance to continuing some very interesting post-privatisation models around innovation of every kind. That is what privatisation the world. When I was working as a banker, I was has enabled and it is what the market and the private asked to advise a country, which will remain nameless, sector, harnessed by skilled regulation, can and will on privatising its gas industry. I thought I had got the provide. Nationalisation belongs to yesterday. I fear, message over to Ministers in that country but, when I too, although it will be resisted, that the great Labour went back a month later to see how they were getting Party in its present state belongs to yesterday. It is all on, the Minister told me proudly that he had put his rather sad and not a little dangerous. I beg to move. brother in charge of the industry. So it was privatised and that was all right, was it not? I did not succeed 12.05 pm there. On another occasion, when I was visiting Václav Lord Wrigglesworth (LD): My Lords, the noble Havel at Hradcany Castle, the lady who took the coats Lord has done the House a service in raising this issue called me aside urgently. She said she had heard that I at the present time, although I hope that we shall not was an expert on privatisation, and could I get her see the polarisation and ideological nature of the father’s pub back from the communists who had stolen debate that we had in decades gone by. I take a very it? She was dissatisfied when I said that I could not do pragmatic approach to this issue and will rehearse the much more than mention it to Mr Havel. I do not arguments for it in a moment, but before doing so I know whether she ever got it back or not. want to join the noble Lord in welcoming the maiden I also declare an interest as an adviser to by far the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Young. He and I most efficient, safest and advanced railway system in worked in the Post Office together before we were both the world—the Central Japan Railway Company’s elected to the other place in 1974. Just as when I was Shinkansen system. This is a private company with a making my maiden speech here I looked back to see large, residual government shareholding. Incidentally, what I had said in my maiden speech in the other its safety record is much better than the more recent place, I looked at the noble Lord’s maiden speech, Chinese high-speed system. Japan seems to be a country which was made seven days before mine. I see that he which, with their current Chinese enthusiasm, our spoke on this very issue of nationalised industries, and Government have temporarily forgotten. We depend just we look forward to the contribution he will make to as much on Japan for our economic strength, especially this debate and those he will undoubtedly make to the for a successful nuclear future, as ever we will on China. benefit of the House in the future. It has to be accepted as well that a privatised Having had a vote of no confidence from my electricity industry, which we now have, was never constituents in the other place after nearly 14 years, I going to be able to build nuclear power stations on the have had the benefit of some experience in different scale of the giants being constructed 30 years ago in types of business. As I mentioned, I worked in the Post the 1970s and 1980s. We are still, of course, constructing Office when it was a nationalised public corporation one of these giants—at Hinkley Point C. It should come before going into the other place. I was director of a as no surprise that it needs a French state company, major consumer co-op for a number of years and the a Chinese state-owned company and the British research officer for the then quite substantial Co-operative Government, plus eye-watering price penalties on all Party, which was the political arm of the co-operative industries and households for years to come, as well as movement, so I had a lot of experience of different endless government guarantees of risk-free returns to types of co-operatives in that capacity. the investors, to keep a project of this size and design When I came out of the other place, I joined a going forward. I suspect that this will be the last of its partner in establishing a commercial and industrial kind in the line. property development company which became the Although the debate about privatisation has regrettably biggest investment and development company in the now become polarised, I have concluded that the north-east and is still doing that work today, probably benefits have definitely outweighed the failures. More creating more jobs than I ever did as a Member of importantly, forces were at work from about two-thirds Parliament in the other place or indeed probably here. of the way through the 20th century which made That was a great success and I still have an interest in privatisation inevitable. Asking whether privatisation industrial and commercial property in the north-east. is good or bad is rather like asking whether evolution In addition, before coming here I was on a number of is a good thing. It happened and was bound to happen. plc boards and chairman of the Port of Tyne, one of Technology is marching on. The digital age is on our biggest deep sea ports, for seven years. That ran in the march. The nature and role of the state are changing. a very commercial way as a statutory corporation. So With immense people empowerment, a huge impulse I hope that I can bring those experiences to the House to localisation and entirely new relations in many in discussing the Motion before us. 791 Private Ownership[LORDS] Private Ownership 792

[LORD WRIGGLESWORTH] There are cases where it is right for a body in the It is unhelpful to business and to industry to have public sector to be moved into the private sector, but the uncertainty of a raging public debate, as we did in there are also cases for doing the opposite. The decades gone by, on an ideological basis over the issue Conservative Government to which the noble Lord of privatisation or nationalisation. As the noble Lord, referred nationalised Rolls-Royce in the public interest. Lord Howell, said, we should take a technical, not an At the moment there is a case for the Government ideological, view of this. There are very good examples paying the costs of mothballing the steel plant in of public sector organisations that prosper and serve Redcar which is being closed. That plant is as big as the country well and do not suffer the maladies that St Paul’s Cathedral and has the second biggest blast the noble Lord outlined, but I regret that the Pandora’s furnace in Europe. The furnace, the coke ovens that go box of this debate has been opened again by the new with it and all the surrounding deep berths for importing leader of the Labour Party. As a frequent user of the iron ore and taking the steel out, would need a massive rail services up to the north-east, the idea of them investment of billions of pounds. The chances of that going back into state ownership fills me with horror. I facility being revived are very slim indeed but, strategically, do not know why the privatised railway companies the Government should seriously consider having it have not sold the success that they have had over the available, for the relatively cheap cost of mothballing past decade and more to much better effect. Those it for some years. However, I have not seen any serious who want to go back to the old British Rail must be consideration of that. That is what I mean about looking at our stations with rose-tinted spectacles. The taking a pragmatic approach. Do not take an ideological stations, and the services on our trains, are infinitely approach, but ask what is best in the circumstances better than they were in those days. Memories seem to and behave in accordance with that. be very short. There has been a long-standing campaign, The French seem to be much better at getting this funded and organised by the trade unions from that sector, right with the public sector. French Governments manage to try to get them nationalised again and the new to sustain businesses right across the board in the leader of the Labour Party has obviously bought that. public sector—or those with considerable public sector In the Library’s briefing for this debate there is a interests in them—without the sort of interference the piece by the Professor of Political Economy at Glasgow noble Lord talked about. That is why the relationship University.I can see where he is coming from ideologically. between the ownership, the shareholders and the He talks about public ownership serving, management is fundamental. If that is wrong, everything “social needs and environmental concerns over private gain”. goes wrong. One can see plenty of examples of the He talks about, dangers of the way it has been done in this country at “democratic accountability and public engagement in the economy”. any time. Look at the demands from Members of the other place, and even some in this place, regarding the What does he mean? He should remember some of the way the Government should run the banks in which things the noble Lord mentioned. The nationalised they have a shareholding. You cannot run an organisation industries used to be run with constant interference by if people externally are telling you what salaries should civil servants and government departments, making it be paid to the management, what organisation they impossible for them to manage their businesses as they should have or what services they should provide. You would if they were proper commercial organisations, cannot chop and change from time to time according or serve the consumers as they were supposed to. The to a political timetable and political demands, rather idea of going back to that sort of arrangement fills me than taking a strategic, long-term approach, and be with horror. giving the management the job of doing it. Frankly, if No matter who the owners are, the trick is getting the management does not do the job, it may have to be the relationship right between the shareholders, or removed, which I have had to do at times, in order to stakeholders, and the management. Then management ensure that the objectives that have been laid down are can manage on a proper commercial basis, to achieve achieved. the objectives that have been laid down by the shareholders I hope the ideological debate that raged in the past or stakeholders. I think not only of our Port of Tyne, does not come back—I think the noble Lord would but of the very successful port of Dover, which is a agree on this point—and that the settled position we statutory corporation. When it was suggested that it have reached as a country is maintained. The blind be privatised, the campaign against this was led by the doctrinal faith and ideology of a minority, which Conservative Member for Dover because it is a perfectly thinks that by putting things in public ownership you good organisation, doing a good job. As was said are somehow serving the consumer and the public many years ago, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. The interest, is completely wrong. It need not look in the Port of Tyne is the same: it made over £10 million last crystal ball; it can look to history to find the truth of year being run on a commercial basis and there is no that case. From these Benches, I am advocating a reason to disturb an arrangement like that. Channel 4 pragmatic and non-ideological approach. If we do is in public ownership, and it does a good job but it that, consumers, the people working in those businesses has not been constantly interfered with by government. and the whole country will benefit. The noble Lord made a fundamental point: if a public sector organisation like that needs capital, one may have to go to the market and privatise to enable the 12.17 pm business to succeed. If you do not, any debt that it Lord Young of Cookham (Con) (Maiden Speech): builds up will, inevitably, be on the PSBR and the My Lords, it is a particular pleasure to follow the Treasury will take an interest in everything it is doing, noble Lord, Lord Wrigglesworth, because, as he said, and that leads to stop-go investment in the business. we both worked for the same nationalised industry 793 Private Ownership[22 OCTOBER 2015] Private Ownership 794 over 40 years ago before we embarked on our respective in the 1970s, with George Thomas—later the Viscount political careers. I am delighted that our paths have Tonypandy—in the Chair. We were debating the converged once again in your Lordships’ House. I am state retirement pension; I opened my remarks by grateful to him and to my noble friend for their very congratulating the Speaker on his 65th birthday and kind words about me. It is an honour and a privilege expressing the view that he might like to take a particular to make one’s maiden speech in your Lordships’ House. interest in the debate. I was rebuked for my insolence, My arrival here has obliged the tabloid press to rebrand but he then excised the exchange from Hansard. me from the “bicycling Baronet”to the “pedalling Peer”, I would like to make a brief contribution to this but there are worse things to be called by today’s debate, so ably introduced by my noble friend. Before media. joining the other place, I was economic adviser to a Having read your Lordships’ debate about the size nationalised industry—the Post Office Corporation, of this House last month, I was worried about the which embraced both BT and Royal Mail. As with welcome I might receive because reference was made other nationalised industries at the time—the noble to an article describing the new intake, of which I am Lord made this point—there was political temptation part, as the, to freeze the prices before an election and then increase “extraordinary ennoblement of failed and discredited politicians”. them afterwards, which played havoc with demand. But there has been no trace of that ungenerous remark The investment programmes were constrained by and in my welcome to this House. Your Lordships could caught up with the fluctuating fortunes of the government not have been kinder to the new boy. My sponsors, finances and were sometimes directed towards marginal Black Rod, the Whips and the staff of the House have seats. That was no way to plan for and run major so far kept me out of serious trouble. As a bonus, the infrastructure companies where stable, long-term induction tour took me to a part of the building I had investment was crucial. never been to in 41 years—the Sports and Social Club. To pick up on a point made by my noble friend who I understand all the sensitivities in this House about introduced this debate, after BT was privatised, I went those who arrive here from down the corridor. But back to the staff canteen to meet my former colleagues. given that this House has as its mission the scrutinising On the notice board was one piece of paper: a chart of of legislation and holding Ministers to account, I the BT share price. To me that symbolised one of the hope that those who have served an apprenticeship benefits of privatisation: the identification by the elsewhere might be able to add value to the proceedings employees of a company with its success, in a way that in your Lordships’ House. It is also helpful to include was simply never possible under public ownership. those who have held office and can from first-hand Privatisation of BT brought choice in handsets and experience spot the Achilles heel in a ministerial defence. providers and got rid of the waiting lists; it would be absurd to renationalise it. For my part, I think that I have the unique record of having been sacked by two Prime Ministers and then Twenty years ago, when I followed in the footsteps brought back by both of them, leaving unresolved the of my noble friend who introduced this debate and question of my ministerial merits. I have joined the became Secretary of State for Transport, I completed Government more often than the noble Lord, Lord the privatisation of the railways. Some noble Lords Mandelson. I think that I am the 8th former Government may regard that as a spent conviction, but I am Chief Whip to join your Lordships’ House. In that unrepentant. Instead of a British Rail monopoly, we capacity, I noticed that the Government lost more have now created a vibrant railway operating industry, votes in one day last week than I did in two years. using the skills of the airlines, the bus companies and However, that is in part because the residents here are overseas operators. They bid competitively for the free range, as opposed to battery farmed. franchises in the interests of both taxpayers and passengers. If British Rail failed, no one else could run I have always taken an interest in your Lordships’ the railways, but now we have a range of competent House. With the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, I providers. Instead of an industry which looked inwards co-piloted the House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) towards the Minister for funds, we have train operating Bill in the last days of the last Parliament, which companies looking outwards to the market—to their landed safely before dissolution. It enables your Lordships’ customers—to generate more revenue. House to deal appropriately with, I remember the public expenditure rounds in the “noblemen who have gone wrong”, last Conservative Government. I would appear before in the words of Sir William Gilbert in “The Pirates the Star Chamber, which was populated with colleagues of Penzance”. It has a part to play in upholding the with whom I have now been reunited, and tell them of reputation of this House, and I hope I never activate my requirements. They would say, “George, we are its provisions. really excited by your new train set, but health, education, I also understand the fear that the rarefied atmosphere defence and the police have got the money”, and so of your Lordships’ House might be contaminated if not enough was left for the railways. Now, however, we bring with us the emissions from the other place. I the train operators and the roscos—the rolling stock will not be doing that, having been equipped with the companies—are not inhibited in the same way and appropriate software. However, as one of the less investment has soared. We may not have got absolutely partisan Members of the Commons, I welcome the everything right—it was done against the clock, at calmer atmosphere here. What would be acrimonious times without a majority in the other place and with exchanges on the green carpet become civilised discussions an Opposition threatening to renationalise—but the on the red one. I was only rebuked once for my basic structure has remained unchanged and passenger behaviour in the House of Commons, and that was numbers have doubled. 795 Private Ownership[LORDS] Private Ownership 796

[LORD YOUNG OF COOKHAM] I remember also a sentimental attachment even to At the moment, the Treasury is conducting probably the worst of these nationalised services. I remember one of the most difficult public expenditure rounds sensing that people felt that the state, having brought since the war, with the outcome due to be announced us through horrible, damaging and tragic conflicts to next month. I ask your Lordships how much more victory, could also contribute to the peace that ensued. difficult that exercise would be if in addition to the In the British mind there was and probably still exists demands of health, education, the police and defence a strong feeling as to what should and should not be were added the investment requirements of the done for profit. I do not dismiss those perceptions, but nationalised industries. In my view, freeing these companies I do not think that that feeling stands up to argument. from the constraints of the PSBR was the most significant When a doctor or a social worker goes home with a and welcome consequence of privatisation. pay packet and then deducts the expenses of living, Over the last 20 years, a broad consensus has emerged what is left is surely, by some description, profit. that the wealth-creating infrastructure companies are Sometimes I think of the argument in reverse. Imagine best located in the private sector. There is a legitimate if by tradition the undertaking business had, since the debate about the process, the price and the appropriate dawn of time, been the preserve of the state. Think of method of regulation, but I hope that we have left the outrage when somebody suggested it should suddenly behind the arguments of the 1970s and 1980s. There become privatised—making money out of death. are grave risks in breaking that consensus, such as a While I conclude that the case for private ownership threat to the investment programmes of the industries of industry is overwhelming, it does not follow that I concerned. Why should they risk capital if they are am uncritical of some aspects. We in the private sector about to be taken over? It would be a serious diversion do ourselves no service by ignoring the shortcomings of management effort to see off the threat of we see around us. nationalisation. That is the last thing that these important My starting point is that 95% of the British economy industries need at this stage of our recovery. I very is driven by small and medium-sized businesses. The much hope that the debate, so ably introduced by my head of affairs of such an enterprise experiences things noble friend, will help to ensure that common sense that no head of a tier 1 company, a multinational or a will prevail and that the consensus holds. quango experiences. He or she is at personal risk every hour of every day. There is the commercial risk of the 12.25 pm market changing unexpectedly, or commodities changing; there is the financial risk, including the strangely Lord Cavendish of Furness (Con): My Lords, what a capricious attitude of banking nowadays; and there is tremendous pleasure it is to follow my noble friend the regulatory risk. Imagine being in charge of a small Lord Young of Cookham and to hear his outstanding business, and the reams of paper that come at you maiden speech, on which I congratulate him. As has every week. There is also the legal risk: employment been said, he had a distinguished career in another law is complex, and although it has improved, all of us place. I have seen the way he has been greeted in your in the private sector know what it is to deal with Lordships’ House by former colleagues. He is obviously vexatious claims. There are also the huge decisions we incredibly well respected and incredibly well liked. all have to make on capital investment. Not having served in another place myself, I always That exposure to the harshness of the real world find myself speculating how those distinguished people shapes the character and mettle of these people. They from another place will fare in your Lordships’ House. are the real heroes of the British economy, and it It is uneven, to say the least. Some fare better than others. always saddens me to think how little their voice is Some sulk and say that it is not the same; others really heard. The CBI always claims to speak for all of get into it and make a career in your Lordships’ us—but it certainly does not speak for me. How could House. My noble friend is a true parliamentarian. We it? It has never asked me what I think. can look forward to a very distinguished contribution and we welcome him warmly. Public ownership, by contrast, is unavoidably inefficient, I thank my noble friend Lord Howell and congratulate as I think has been pointed out already. I am not him on introducing this important debate. His speech attempting to disparage those who attempt to manage was a reminder of his long and distinguished career, it, but everything is stacked against them. Government full of wisdom. It was also timely, as old arguments is simply not designed to run business. The story of are resurfacing. PFIs surely provides the best example: again and again we have seen how all the rewards go to private sector I declare an interest. In all my adult life I have been investors and all the risks are borne by the taxpayer. engaged with industry and commerce. I refer noble Lords to the register of interests. A debate on the All of us in manufacturing industry understand the possible merits of public ownership is once more importance of capital investment: it is the lifeblood of possible only because the present generation of young our business. My own experience of many years is that adults cannot remember what the nationalised industries when properly equipped, a business produces happy were really like, as the noble Lord, Lord Wrigglesworth, surprises, but if we have had to stall investment—for described. They cannot remember how it took more cash-flow reasons, say—it is full of unhappy surprises. than six months to get a telephone connection, or the Yet even in this year of grace the Treasury is still, I endless industrial action generated by a powerful and feel, unable to distinguish between revenue and capital. politically driven trade union movement. They cannot When I was in local government, in Cumbria County remember the general feeling of squalor that usually Council, we had very sharp political divides but we surrounded public sector enterprises. came together to save money to build a new school. 797 Private Ownership[22 OCTOBER 2015] Private Ownership 798

The old school was bad for education, expensive to is that fleet-of-foot small companies will muscle into maintain and bad for morale. It really had had its day, their territory. A timber contractor operating nationwide and all of us in local government joined forces to get a regularly approaches the regulator to try to toughen new one. The Treasury told us that we could not have a up the regulatory framework for his business. This is new school because it was “inflationary”—a bizarre not because he is interested in health and safety but idea, which revealed a completely different understanding because he cannot bear the idea of the numerous of the workings of capital. I regard the Treasury as two-man operations operating successfully, and he being innumerate from the point of view of a private wants to put them out of business. sector business. We have also seen how great infrastructure projects I also regard the public mechanism for controlling come and go without local companies enjoying any expenditure as bizarre, to put it mildly. Parliament benefit whatever. At least the Government set out with decrees that something should be done, or bought, or honourable intentions; I would be less confident saying a service provided, and then the Treasury does its that about many of their quangos. Worse even than damnedest either to stop it or to delay it. No one in the the quangos are the private monopolies, especially private sector would survive a week with that sort of exemplified by some of the utility companies which system of control. When a Government sit there buying become so utterly remote from the customers they and spending, as Governments have to do, their power should be there to serve. One of the best antidotes to and financial muscle are such that what they do will this is the growing number of LEPs we are seeing have a strong gravitational effect. To avoid centralisation, developing around the country. When they are good, the Government have to be proactive in preventing it. they really help the SME sector. It is a credit to the present Government that they do This is also the age of partnership. Given the huge just that. investment coming into my local town of Barrow-in- It was a tragic historical set of circumstances that Furness, a number of us are trying to get together with allowed our local government structure to be undermined very small operators who normally would not be able and become a shadow of what it once was. In effect, it to compete so that we can come together and add a fell prey to centralising forces. The extremely sophisticated little muscle to our operation. Huge size tends to lead local government finance teams that used to be found to corporatism. Might not the public be served by up and down the country were one particular casualty fiscal incentives either to split up large companies or of that development. We need to recover the financial not grow them beyond what is in the public interest? skill that characterised the best of our local authorities. The question of institutions raised by my noble They really did understand the distinction between friend is more subtle—but, again, gravitational force is revenue and capital. at work. I carried out some local research into why I shall now touch on something that I spoke about individuals were not being attracted to school in last week’s debate on the Second Reading of the governorship, local government or parish councils, or European Union Referendum Bill; I make no apology leaving early. In the case of school governors, the story for repeating it. You will find no greater admirer of the was always the same: they said that they were always free market than me, but I seriously worry about the being sent for retraining, so time burdens were continually fast-growing phenomenon of corporatism. It leads to being added. So you are getting committee-type persons greed, to a failure of accountability and transparency, going for these things and independent-minded persons to a diminution of competition, and, in the end, as we staying away. Similarly, parish councillors are being have seen internationally, to corruption. made less and less welcome because of the regulations coming down. The modern world has discouraged The effect of corporatism can be illustrated thus—I local leadership; somehow it has to be retrieved. am thinking of a particular set of circumstances with I have always thought that about half of my own which I am familiar. The Government wish to place a working life ought to be devoted to public service. I contract. Understandably, they like to deal with a tier realise that that is too much for many people. It is said 1 company.They ask for, and probably receive, assurances that Cumbria is overgoverned and underled. I think that the local supply chain will receive a share, and a that government has a role in making public service framework agreement is set in place. The business is more attractive—or at least less unattractive. A happy shared out among other tier 1 companies. The supply nation needs leadership and the participation of all if chain issues then become rather vaguer and at one it is to prosper. remove, and are finally often ignored. There are two reasons why tier 1 companies like 12.38 pm dealing with companies of similar size. The first is cultural. I well understand that. It is very easy for a Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD): My Lords, I, too, tier 1 company to deal with its opposite number of congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Young, on his similar size, and, often, with its links to Whitehall. The maiden speech and welcome him to the House. I was second is more sinister. Many of these companies are not aware of his role in the final throes of rail privatisation fat and monopolistic and often not as efficient as they but, as somebody who always prioritises rail in my should be. The inefficiencies are sometimes disguised business travel, I thank him and congratulate him on by making up ground through screwing down their at least making my life more amenable over the years suppliers. The approach of some supermarkets to since that time. dairy farmers is a case in point. I see in Cumbria the When I first noted that this debate had been tabled, tragic results of that and the suffering of some dairy I was not sure whether it would be a trip down farmers. The one thing that terrifies these companies memory lane to highlight the merits of privatisation 799 Private Ownership[LORDS] Private Ownership 800

[LORD STONEHAM OF DROXFORD] There were both successes and problems with or a partisan clarion call to try to highlight the “back privatisation and we are still experiencing some of its to the 1970s”views of the new Labour leader. Inevitably, consequences. Three things need to be said about it. it has turned out to be a combination of both. But I Often, deals were hurried to get political payback, hope we can, as I will try to do in this speech, learn the meaning that initially in some sectors there was inadequate lessons of the past to improve on what we do in the competition or faulty structures which were not sustainable future. —too often, quick wins rather than sustainable futures were achieved. There was not enough experience in I remind the House of the huge damage done to the franchising or regulation to manage these in the first British economy by the ideological debates of the instance. We are still having problems with that and in 1950s, 1960s and 1970s over the issue of private and making sure that the consumer gets the best deal. We state ownership. I happened to walk into the House need to ensure, over time, that franchise deals are this morning with the noble Lord, Lord Brookman, longer term, so that they encourage more investment. who has spent a lifetime in the steel industry. I reflected that I thought it was a sad time for him, with the The third problem is that too many of our current problems in that industry. He reminded me infrastructure utilities have drifted into foreign ownership, that when he started work in in the 1950s there were in areas such as power generation, airports and water. 270,000 people working in the steel sector; that was That inevitably means that we will end up with very when he started at Richard Thomas and Baldwins in complex deals for investment, requiring expensive Ebbw Vale. When I started as a graduate management government guarantees, and contracts that are likely trainee in the Coal Board in 1974, there were 250,000 to be fraught with difficulty. We want an open economy working in the mining industry. One of the consequences but I cannot believe that the French, Germans or of the last few decades is that whole communities have Americans would have allowed to happen what has been turned upside down. It is sad to reflect that happened here. nothing has really replaced the optimism, confidence, There have been successes. The debate has emphasised prosperity, spirit and skills of those communities. that British Rail is not something that we would want I am not sure whether those industries were going to go back to, unless we were acting simply out of to survive, but I am absolutely convinced that the lack emotional nostalgia. Franchising has had its problems of investment over the years has destroyed steel-making. but, happily, investment is happening; customers are We might be talking about the liquefaction of coal, more centre-stage; reliability has risen, certainly on all rather than putting all our hopes into fracking, if we the lines that I use; and monopolies are being challenged. still had some remnants of a coal industry. I am There are also the great success stories of privatisation: absolutely convinced that lack of investment in rail Rolls-Royce rescued and then privatised, a company at and nuclear energy has seriously retarded services in the pinnacle of our engineering skills in this country; I those sectors. It has also retarded our capacity to talk also of Airbus and British Aerospace, where now ourselves improve and invest in them. in civil aviation we challenge the Americans, which was undreamed of 20 or 30 years ago. But there have The consequences of that lack of investment are also been some disasters and that was often because now being felt. We can see huge problems in the rail those industries and sectors were denuded of skills sector huge because of the lack of experience in building and investment before privatisation. new capacity; there is just no knowledge or skills. There is poor project management because there is no I am a social democrat and less concerned about experience of actually doing it. It is not surprising that ownership than about the best means to improve the the Great Western electrification in the course of the country’s competitiveness and prosperity. I am sure last two years has spiralled out of controlled. This is that is better done through ensuring that there is before we start HS2, which is so essential to improving always choice and competition because they are the our rail capacity. main drivers of change; otherwise, monopoly breeds complacency and uncompetitive practices. I have worked Today, of all days, it is slightly ironic that the in the state sector and the private sector and for social decline of our nuclear energy industry has left us enterprises so I have seen all forms of ownership. resorting to a French, state-controlled company, EDF, in partnership with the Chinese state’s China General I will make a few comments about how private Nuclear Power Corporation, to build a design which is enterprise now has to deliver in the economic situation already massively delayed in other countries at an that we face. There are some shortcomings that the astronomic energy price. I noted in the Guardian today Government need to address. One is that there is still a quote from the noble Lord, Lord Howell, saying too much emphasis in our stock market and our this is, companies on short-term profit maximisation and results to get the share price up. We have also allowed “one of the worst deals ever”. too much of our talent in this country not to go into I hope that he might take the opportunity when summing real industry but to drift into the City and the finance up either to deny that quote, or to explain himself to sector as a whole. One of the disadvantages of the affinity his son-in-law. Managing and project-managing this that we have with the City is that it encourages a sort of investment—which will not be completed until trading mentality, which encourages too many acquisitions everyone who has signed it is long gone—has to be a and mergers rather than the development of real problem. You have to be a great optimist not to believe businesses. We should always seek to improve competition that this complex deal is a recipe for contractual and should be very wary of allowing companies to be disaster. taken over by overseas owners. The UK has been seen 801 Private Ownership[22 OCTOBER 2015] Private Ownership 802 as a bit of an easy touch and we underestimate the person myself, but if he is going to find the Achilles consequences for our industry if we allow too much heel in Ministerial Statements, well done—I like this; ownership to be in overseas hands. this is going to be fun. I look forward to many of those One of the most significant problems in industry is occasions. that there has been simply too little business investment, In preparing for this debate, I looked at the interesting particularly in R&D. I have said before in this House brief prepared by the Library which was good to have, that Volkswagen commits ¤12 billion to R&D research although somewhat gnomic, possibly because the Library each year. I know it has problems but I suspect that, was also not quite clear where we were going to go on because it has made that investment in its products this topic, which meant that you had to read quite a and in its customer loyalty, despite all its problems it lot of stuff in order to understand where one might go will see through the current crisis because basically with it. I am going to take one or two points from that, people like its products. In this country our management because my response here is going to be partly theoretical incentives are aimed too much at the short term and and partly practical. I am not going to be quite as not at the long-term achievements that companies pragmatic as one of our earlier speakers but I am need to make. hoping to see where the intellectual case lies and then During the coalition Vince Cable commissioned a perhaps articulate what that means in terms of policy. report from John Kay to review UK equity markets I will also be drawing on a speech given by the then and encourage long-term decision-making. Action has Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, in 2003 been delayed while the Law Commission considers the to the Social Market Foundation which dealt extensively whole legal concept of fiduciary duties, but will the with what a modern, progressive democratic party Minister confirm that the Government remain a strong should do in relation to ownership questions about supporter of the stewardship code, that they want to strategic industries. see investor forums in companies to facilitate collective My first point is a slight criticism of where the engagement by investors in UK companies, and that noble Lord, Lord Howell, came from on his journey. I they want management incentive schemes to focus thought his reflections on his experiences were interesting much more on the longer-term results rather than the but there was an underlying teleological approach that short term? I also hope that the Government remain there is a march of progress and it is inevitable that sceptical of excessive merger activity and are keeping anything that starts off in state ownership will eventually under review the power of regulators and the competitive end up in private ownership and that, really, those who authorities to counter this. call for nationalisation are misguided bigots—all would The Government are right to get the economy in be perfect if Mrs Thatcher’s founding themes were balance and they are right to promote a climate to taken forward and allowed to flourish, because then encourage business investment in all its forms, but I do the state could withdraw from most things and everything not believe we should concentrate simply on the issue would be right as roses. I am not sure about that. I of ownership. We must emphasise that managers need think the problem with this argument is that it is to improve their sectors and concentrate on the long mainly based around cost issues and ignores value. term. There remain major problems in our balance of The issues are much wider than that. Government will payments, productivity and skills and those major always have a role in every aspect of human endeavour challenges can be resolved so that we can compete and must not lose that role because it is an expression globally and raise companies’ prosperity only if we of the will of the people, and it needs to be in all give attention to the long term. aspects of our society. After all, this starts with Adam Smith. I am a bit 12.50 pm surprised that nobody has quoted the great thinker, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, I but every modern generation since Adam Smith put would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for the question about the relationship between the invisible securing this debate. Like a number of other speakers, hand of the market and the helping hand of government when I saw the title I felt slightly at a disadvantage, as I has had to think about how to interpret that tension was not quite sure where he was going to come from. for their times. What are the respective spheres of Your Lordships will not need me to remind them that individuals, markets and communities in achieving I am in a slightly trickier situation in responding to opportunity and security for their citizens? If you this debate since, to take a cricketing metaphor, the address the problem from that perspective, you cannot pitch is rather sticky and I am not entirely sure that I ignore the role of the state. It is true that direct state have got all the messages that are coming out from the involvement in industry was pretty much a rarity in other end in the right order, but I will certainly try to the 18th and 19th centuries following Adam Smith, do justice to where the party that he criticised so but the experiences that we have been talking about strongly in his comments believes it stands on the today are not the only ones that one can draw on. We matters that he raised. ignore at our peril the New Deal of the 1930s in America and the way in which that combination of I would also like to congratulate the pedalling Peer state intervention, state borrowing and state investment on his maiden speech. I think everybody who heard enabled the world to come out of a recession which that and those who will read about it will recognise could otherwise have been much, much worse. that we have a rare talent joining us here. He is steeped in the traditions of Parliament and has quickly understood There are obvious resonances with the situation in the way in which we operate, so he will fit in very well. 2006 to 2008, brought on by the behaviour of the banks. I am sure I am more of a battery rather than free-range At that time, public ownership was one tool used by 803 Private Ownership[LORDS] Private Ownership 804

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] in the global marketplace, with their excellence depending the UK Government, nationalising three of the UK’s on drawing in a wide pool of talent. The question, largest high street banks: Northern Rock, HBOS and again, is whether universities should really become the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds. At the height sellers setting a price for their services and prospective of that crisis, a sum of what I understand to be graduates becoming buyers of higher education at the £1.162 trillion of public money had been committed going rate. What does that mean in practice for the to provide loans, share purchases and guarantees to economy and how growth will be supported? Then the banking sector. At that stage, I think that all sides there is industrial policy. When global competition is in Parliament were on the same page: we were all saying challenging every industry, the state has options to that that had to happen in order to secure the economic replace market forces when they fail—the example of future of our country. We did not say, “Oh no, we the steel industry was mentioned today—but is it right don’t invest in private assets”. We took those steps always to have an ideological assumption that the because they were the right thing to do, although it is state will refuse to intervene at any stage? Those are fair to say that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, complicated questions. They are really about whether Alistair Darling, said at the time: or not the public interest is best served by a particular “It is better for the Government to hold on to Northern Rock model or approach to that thinking. for a temporary period and as and when market conditions The noble Lord, Lord Howell, in introducing his improve the value of Northern Rock will grow and therefore the remarks, tried to pitch himself as a one-nation Tory—I taxpayer will gain. … The long-term ownership of this bank must think that that would be an appropriate way of explaining lie in the private sector”. it; certainly not, he says. He certainly had some very So my first point is to recognise that, although there harsh words to say about those with views on the is a long and complex story involving ownership of matter on the very far right of his party. I think that he assets which are now in private hands, there are occasions would accept that there has been a divide over the when this will still be an issue, and the fundamental years about whether the market solution or a public questions behind that, raised originally by Adam Smith, ownership solution was the right one, and I do not still need to be addressed. There must be a debate dissent from him. Within that divide, there has also about whether an economy can be left in private been an agreement that there are certain areas of vested interests, except when it is necessary to instigate public activity and the economy in particular where a short-term palliative for market failure of that type. we have accepted, without going into it in any great Let us not forget that three decades of privatisation detail, that things like family, faith and civic society and marketisation in the UK have not only increased are not transactions that could be marketised. social inequality but resulted in economic decision-making In his book The Dignity of Difference, the former being captured and concentrated in far fewer hands. Chief Rabbi, the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, says that he The opening up of very large parts of the public sector accepts—as I do, too—that there are areas where the to private capital has created a situation in which the market is legitimate and there are areas where to UK is shifting towards a rentier economy, dominated impose market transactions in human relations is to by financial interests and shareholder values, as was go beyond the bounds of what is acceptable and mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham. There corrodes the very virtues that markets rely upon for is obviously a good and a bad side to that, but the success. He says that markets may be the best way of assumption one makes is that the economy, although constructing exchanges and providing many goods it is working for private vested interests, might also and services efficiently, but they are not good ways of have a conception of public good, and I think that structuring human relationships. This point was picked that is a bit of a stretch at times. Although it is true up by Michael Sandel in his Reith lectures a few years that the private sector has brought in investment, we ago, when he talked about something he called “the are still an economy dogged by bad productivity. moral limits of markets”. Although there are hot spots and the economy is Therefore, we need to be a bit nuanced about how beginning to grow again, it is still not the balanced, we talk about the economy in terms of markets. The wider-ranging economy that I think that all sides debate about left and right need no longer be a debate want. My point here is that, if possible, we should about whether there should be a market-based economy, avoid a simplistic approach to questions of who owns because it is absolutely right to say that markets work the assets that we are talking about. very well for the distribution of services, and for most I take it, and will argue, that a sound macroeconomic of the time we want to make sure that they continue. I framework is a necessary but not sufficient condition do not accept that the public interest requires us to to achieve for Britain a society dominated by opportunity regulate the impact and scope of the market by having and security for all, but I shall mention three areas of greater public ownership, regulation or state intervention. this debate where there are questions to which we will On the other hand, I hope that those who are on the want to return. The first, the health service, which, right of this argument would agree that it is not always since it was first introduced after the Second World the case that the markets are going to provide that War, has always been in public ownership, is dogged combination of liberty, equality, efficiency and prosperity by expense, new technology and rising expectations. that every state would wish to look for. The question has to be whether patients will benefit Given those points about the areas where the market through a public healthcare system or whether, by is not appropriate, we can only agree that, on some bringing the market in, you could get a better route to occasions, the market is the right approach, and on advancing the public interest. Higher education is some occasions there are areas where it is not. We need another example. Universities are very much operating to get beyond the constant debate about that. I recognise 805 Private Ownership[22 OCTOBER 2015] Private Ownership 806 that progressive democratic governments seeking strong Thirdly, the Government have a role to secure an economies should not only support, but possibly enhance, open approach to the world, and we should not be isolated, markets and make sure that they are working effectively either as an economy or as a country. This means and efficiently. We accept, however, that there are international engagement and an open, outward-looking limits to the markets, and that there are some areas— approach to the world. It also involves, of course, the particularly in moral matters—where there should not big question before us that will be coming up in the be markets, but we should always have a concern for next year or so: the question of whether we stay in productivity and efficiency in these areas. Europe. In my view—and I am sure it is shared widely That is the theory behind my views, but I would like around this House—it would be disastrous if Britain to make a couple of points about how it might apply were to leave the EU. Shutting ourselves off would in practice. First, we need to look much wider than we pose a huge threat to our future prosperity. have in this debate so far about what the Government I have tried to give a theoretical basis as to why are responsible for and what they can contribute. The the party that I represent regards the sort of economy is supposed to be British based; it is supposed market economy that we now have as the one that is to create jobs, invest, innovate and export. It should appropriate for us. I worry about the concerns that I have high productivity, and be highly skilled and have expressed in regard to whether the market will go should have innovation. These are all points made by far enough to ensure a proper public-interest concern various speakers. We need a balanced, resilient economy, for people and their aspirations. I think there are succeeding in the world, creating good jobs and practical implications that this Government should opportunities, and offering people a ladder up and the take ahead. chance to make the most of their potential. In that, there are things we need to accept would be done 1.06 pm better by, or initiated by, the state. The first of these would be to make sure that we The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, I thank my can, as a Government and as a country, liberate the noble friend Lord Howell for moving this debate and I talents of all. We cannot hope to succeed as a nation if am grateful for this opportunity to speak. It was we are not giving everyone in every part of Britain a fascinating to hear his journey through his old department platform to succeed as individuals. The economy has and the extent of the work he carried out. I also join to be built on the contribution of all, and we must extend other noble Lords in welcoming my noble friend opportunity and remove barriers to success. This is Lord Young of Cookham, particularly as just over about good primary and secondary schooling; training 20 years ago, as he may remember, I, as a very junior and higher educational opportunities on a lifelong member of the Government, worked with him as a basis; fixing broken markets, intensifying competition Whip in this House. and reducing barriers to market entry for new businesses, It is always wise to remind ourselves from time to and supporting entrepreneurship. That is the area time of the benefits to our economy of markets that where the Government have a legitimate and important operate efficiently and effectively and the important role and most people involved in industry would accept role the private sector plays in achieving this. We have that, in partnership with what their interests are. spent considerable time over recent decades debating The second pillar to consider is innovation. We all sides of these issues. It is fair to say—as was also have to recognise that, in a previous period, there was said by my noble friend Lord Young—that the arguments a lot of blue-sky research funded and operated through in favour of the market economy and of private ownership the Government and the nationalised industries. The of industries and, indeed, some institutions, have been noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, might remember that. won and are now generally accepted by most across Even the Post Office or GPO had its research branch the political spectrum. areas as well. That has all gone in the wake of privatisation, As my noble friend Lord Howell said, since the which is to be regretted, but we have other ways that 1980s all serving Governments have committed to that could be taken forward. In particular, the role of privatisation to a greater or lesser extent. Depending the research council system, which is under threat on the nature of the business an organisation is because of possible further cuts to public spending, involved in, privatisation can come in a variety of must be looked at. The science budget, which was shapes and sizes. There are, for example, the large given a 10-year focus under the last Labour Government utilities that provide consumers with critical services, and was supported during the coalition Government, which were privatised in the mid-1980s. During the needs to be protected as we go forward. period from the 1980s to the mid-1990s, both British An active Government should invest in the long Telecom and Cable & Wireless were wholly or partly term; the short-termism has already been mentioned. privatised. Combined with the introduction of What does that mean in practice? It means issues like economic regulation, these privatisations resulted in infrastructure on a long-term, consistent basis. We strong competition in the telecoms market place and look forward to the emerging thinking of the present significant gains for consumers. Government on what I take to be an extension of Other utilities such as water, gas, electricity and Sir John Armitt’s recommendation of a National airports have also been privatised successfully. Some Infrastructure Commission under the noble Lord, Lord people may argue that these privatisations have created Adonis. We also need an industry strategy: not in the privatised monopolies. However, privatisation has proved sense of direction, but making sure that all the facilities very successful in reducing costs to the consumer. By that are available in many other countries for their 1995, telecoms prices had fallen by 40% since privatisation successful winners get the chance to come forward. while gas prices had fallen by 25%. 807 Private Ownership[LORDS] Private Ownership 808

[THE EARL OF COURTOWN] or the highly skilled workforce and good-quality The regulation of the sector, which has gone hand jobs in regions such as the West Midlands and in hand with privatisation, has also helped to drive Northumberland. investment to ensure that the system can cope with the Removing the burden of national ownership from demands placed on it by industry and the population. Governments and Ministers, as many noble Lords These privatisations brought with them an end to have said, has allowed industries to seek critical investment ministerial control and led to the creation of independent from elsewhere and has enabled Governments to focus economic regulators such as Ofcom to monitor the their attention and limited resources on more strategic market and regulate the behaviour of newly privatised cross-cutting issues that will have the most impact on industries in the interests of consumers. Over the our industries and the economy, such as apprenticeships, years, these and other sectors which saw significant and on encouraging a more entrepreneurial spirit that privatisation have matured and developed and in most will help our industries succeed in global markets. cases have delivered good performance and positive However, of course we need to ensure that the other consumer benefits. More recently we have seen the ingredients are in place to allow business to operate successful privatisations of the Tote and Royal Mail, free from unnecessary constraints or unfair practices as well as the continued divestment of the taxpayers’ of other firms, so that it can compete and innovate. At stake in UK financial institutions back to private the same time, Governments must also look after the investors. Why, however, is privatisation seen as necessary, interests of consumers and the workforce, and protect and what are the benefits? What is the case for private the integrity of the market. ownership of industries and institutions in the UK? We are fortunate in this country to have one of the The more cynical among us may emphasise the most effective competition regimes in the world. The raising of income for the Exchequer as the very objective Government have worked hard, both during the last of privatisation. This has certainly been the case in the coalition Government, as mentioned by noble Lords past and is still a useful tool for Governments to on the Liberal Democrat Benches, and since May to deploy in support of other important initiatives. An make the system more efficient. Last year we created interesting example of this, cited in a House of Commons the Competition and Markets Authority by bringing research paper, is the sale in 1977 of 17% of the together the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Government’s shares in BP, which raised £560 million Commission into a single unitary authority. to help them meet the terms required to secure a loan from the IMF, including the reduction of the UK Competition, as my noble friend Lord Howell said, budget deficit. Indeed, the Government have recently is a key driver of growth and one of the pillars of a announced their intention to bring forward sales of vibrant economy. A strong competition regime ensures land, buildings and other assets the Government bought that the most efficient and innovative businesses can or built, which will raise up to £5 billion over the thrive, allowing the best to grow and enter new markets. course of this Parliament. The proceeds from these It also gives confidence to businesses wanting to set up sales will be recycled to help fund new infrastructure in the UK. It drives investment in new and better projects and capital investment. products and pushes prices down and quality up. This is good for growth, for consumers and for the economy. However, we know that there are more long-term benefits from the private ownership of industries. Where Competition and productivity go hand in hand. In there is no longer a strong policy reason for continued July this year the Government published their public ownership or where the asset would clearly “productivity plan”, which was jointly developed and operate more effectively in the private sector, there is signed off by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the clearly no argument for retaining it within the public Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. sector and at a cost to the taxpayer. Privatisation is a The Government’s plan for improving our productivity step on the road towards competition, and many of performance is built around two key drivers or principles: the privatised monopolies are now competing in encouraging long-term investment in economic capital, competitive markets. Where competition is not possible, including infrastructure, skills and knowledge; and economic regulation has created the incentives for promoting a dynamic economy that encourages innovation efficiency gains and investment. Energy network costs and helps resources flow to their most productive use. have halved in the 15 years post-privatisation, while The plan includes 15 action points which set out the the water sector has received £116 billion of investment Government’s objectives to establish and enable a since 1989. long-term investment culture in this country, and which The “political interference”from all angles experienced help address the structural challenges in areas such as by nationalised industries in the past led to some pay, finance, regulation, infrastructure and rebalancing perverse strategic decisions that did not make any the economy. kind of commercial sense. The businesses did not Given the focus of this debate, I will direct my next become more innovative or competitive; in fact, just comments to investment rather than the other aspects the opposite happened, and many, such as British of the plan. As highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Leyland, were sold off. Both Jaguar and Land Rover, Stoneham, and other noble Lords, traditionally, United which split up when British Leyland was sold in 1984, Kingdom investment levels as a share of GDP have are now major British multinational brands, albeit been lower than those of competitors such as France, foreign-owned. Without the private foreign investment Germany and Japan. In the run-up to the financial we have seen in our car industry over recent decades, it crisis, the growth in investment spending was focused is unlikely that we would have the strong, internationally on property rather than capital spend on equipment competitive industry we now have in the United Kingdom and machinery. We need to change this. Investment in 809 Private Ownership[22 OCTOBER 2015] Private Ownership 810 new ideas and equipment is crucial to growing our Private ownership with suitable safeguards seems economy. Access to finance to support investment constantly to have been shown to be the best approach enables companies to compete globally. Companies to running the economy. It has encouraged the best need to be able to anticipate fluctuations in markets performance from the vast majority of industries over and identify and respond quickly to opportunities. the years. I should draw attention to the fascinating How can we make the UK an even more attractive speech of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson—even though investment option? Among other things, the plan proposes it might be on a slightly sticky wicket. Private ownership reductions over time to corporation tax; increases the and the competitive markets which follow lead to annual investment allowance to £200,000, its highest-ever more efficient firms, owing to the profit motive and permanent level; welcomes proposals to encourage the need to be, or to become, a commercially viable and incentivise longer-term investment put forward by proposition, whether at home or globally. There tend business leaders; and addresses issues around skills to be better outcomes because of the desire, or perhaps and education at school level, university and beyond, the need, to please consumers and to keep and develop as highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham. It is their businesses, facilitated by the competition regime. also ambitious in its plan to address a number of Of course, competition provides companies with incentives existing transport and infrastructure challenges, including to improve the quality of products or services, and to long-term access to reliable, low-carbon energy at an reduce prices as far as possible, all of which are of affordable price, and establishing world-class digital huge benefit to consumers. infrastructure across the whole country. Finally, competition and private ownership provide However, crucially, on top of these very tangible strong incentives for companies to innovate and develop and welcome initiatives, we need to create a long-term their offerings so that they meet consumer needs more attitude to investment in companies and innovation and closely. It is the companies that can do this effectively end short-termism. Financiers often focus on short-term that will grow and survive and provide the much-needed investments and the quick return. This can have a clear and employment and sustainable wealth creation for our noticeably negative impact on funding for research economy. A flexible, open marketplace that supports and development innovation, which can be a risky pursuit and encourages such private endeavour is also attractive and may also have a fairly long payback period. for investors, including foreign direct investment, as the UK experience has proved so effectively over recent A number of initiatives are included in the productivity decades. All of these contribute to productivity and plan which focus on creating financial services in the growth. UK that lead the world in investing for growth. Our financial services sector has suffered since the financial crisis and we can do more to promote the most productive 1.23 pm forms of investment. To this end, the Government Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, it remains for have highlighted the importance of ensuring the supply me to thank very warmly all noble Lords who have of finance to support productive investment in setting taken part in this debate. In a way I am quite gladdened the Financial Policy Committee’s 2015 remit; directed that it has been a low-key debate and your Lordships’ the Prudential Regulation Authority and the Financial House has not been infected with too much of the Conduct Authority to create a joint new bank unit to frenzy from outside and nobody has made blood-curdling promote competition; championed the development speeches about returning to the commanding heights of new and innovative technologies and ideas, including of the economy and all that, or blood-curdling speeches through the appointment of a special envoy for FinTech; about the need for unbridled capitalism. In fact, in my and are implementing a long-term plan for the taxation view, all capitalism should be, and always will be, of banks, giving stability and sustainability and securing bridled and that is really the answer to the ideological competitiveness. battles of the past. The market has to be regulated and I also draw attention to the speech of the noble work in a framework of control; if the framework is Lord, Lord Wrigglesworth, and his pragmatic approach. right the market works and if it does not then the I particularly agree with what he and many other Government begin to carry the can. noble Lords had to say about the pink-tinted specs the I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, railways are sometimes viewed with. As a regular user Lord Wrigglesworth, who broadly supported my view of the railways I find it a great service. My noble friend that technology and the technical wonders of the past Lord Cavendish emphasised the importance of small 30 years have driven us away from the idea of the great and medium-sized enterprises, and I could not agree state industries of the past or the state industries of more with what he said; they are often described as the other countries such as Russia as they simply became backbone of our economy. The noble Lord, Lord undesirable, unnecessary and unworkable. Some 30 years Stoneham, mentioned training. I draw his attention to ago in the Department of Energy I was told by engineers, the debate I took part in last week, which emphasised scientists and civil servants that it was impossible to the great successes of the apprenticeship system we privatise the utility industries because it was absurd to have put in place. The noble Lord also asked whether imagine there could ever be two telephone wires to a the Government would support the Stewardship Code, house or two electric cables or two gas pipes. It could which aims to support the quality of engagement not be done so we might as well forget the whole idea. between asset managers and companies to help improve Indeed, I remember that in India people said it was long-term risk-adjusted returns for shareholders. The impossible to privatise the telephone industry because FRC is reviewing the code to ensure it works as there were 9 million villages that had to get a cable effectively as possible. The Government support this to them. Well, we know what happened. Technology voluntary code. simply leaped all over that and transferred the argument 811 Private Ownership[LORDS] Zhang Kai 812

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] I thank again your Lordships for a very interesting into a completely different world in which, particularly passing comment, in a way, on the storms outside. Let with digitalisation and the computer, it became possible us hope that we continue to be an oasis of stability, to operate a vast variety of diverse services within an quietness, calmness and common sense in a very difficult overall organised framework. and chaotic world. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Young—he Motion agreed. lived entirely up to my personal, and all our, expectations in that he spoke a lot of common sense and I think he Zhang Kai will add to the common-sense resource of this Chamber, Statement which is more and more difficult to maintain sometimes in a very tumultuous world. As he said, our job is to 1.29 pm scrutinise legislation. We will go on doing that thoroughly. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth In addition, through debates such as this one we have Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My Lords, a stabilising role in the frenzy outside. Although, I just with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement put in a slight reminder that in our present condition made earlier today in another place by my right where the Government keep losing the vote in the end honourable friend Hugo Swire. The Statement is as they must be allowed to get their business. If that follows. common-sense view about this Chamber is thrown “We are in the middle of a hugely positive state away then we are heading for a really disastrous period visit, which the Prime Minister has said will benefit in which the basis on which the House of Lords is able not just our nations and our peoples but also the wider to contribute will be undermined. world. Yesterday, the Prime Minister and Foreign I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Cavendish Secretary had extensive discussions with President Xi with his wisdom on localism and the need for strong Jinping and his delegation. Those discussions continue local authorities with expertise. We want to see more today, including when the Prime Minister will host of that. If we are going to go for northern powerhouses President Xi at Chequers. we need northern powerful and intelligent regulation As we have made very clear, the strong relationship and administration in local government, and that must which we are building allows us to discuss all issues. come back in a way we have not seen before. No issue, including human rights, is off the table. The UK-China joint statement, which we have agreed, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, who made commits both sides to continue our dialogue on human interesting points about ownership. I am not sure I rights and the rule of law. agree with him about it not mattering. It was Anthony Turning to the case of Zhang Kai, we are aware Crosland’s idea that it did not matter. He told the old that Zhang Kai has been accused of “endangering Socialist Party that you should not have to nationalise state security” and “assembling a crowd to disrupt everything. In the end it does matter. If you do not social order”, apparently in relation to his work with think about who owns and organises and competes in churches in Zhejiang province. We are concerned that the great resources of this economy, disasters follow. I his whereabouts are undisclosed, and he has been thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for pointing reportedly denied access to legal representation. out that, of course, in the end the Government always At the UK-China Human Rights Dialogue, which do have a role, particularly in all the vital services and was held in Beijing in April this year, we raised issues where the investor will not invest. Where it is too relating to religious freedom in China, including the long-term, as we have seen—we mentioned nuclear destruction of churches and religious symbols in Zhejiang power—Governments have to step in. It is as simple as province. We raised a number of related individual that. They become political decisions. The taxpayer cases. and the consumer will have to be ordered to pay up if an investor is not willing to do so. A transparent legal system is a vital component of the rule of law, and we urge the Chinese authorities to My only disappointment, if I may end on this note, ensure that proper judicial standards are upheld”. is that there was no further comment on wider ownership and some attempt to calm down and overcome the 1.31 pm eternal alleged ideological battle between capital and Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I thank labour which has gone on for most of my lifetime. I the Minister for repeating that Statement. In July, the believed in the 1970s and I believe even more strongly Minister expressed deep concern over the detention of today that, where wealth is being created, resources Chinese Christian lawyers arrested that month as part must be spread so that everyone in the community of a major crackdown. She fully supported the subsequent who wishes to be involved—there are always some EU statement calling for the release of those detained, who reject participating—benefits from the growth of who had sought to protect rights under the Chinese wealth and resources in the economy. To put it in constitution. Now, we have the case of Zhang Kai, crude terms, where there is butter it must be spread to who was taken into custody by the police on 25 August. all corners of the toast. I think that is the answer to On 31 August, China Aid reported that he had been past battles. If all share in prosperity then all will feel sentenced to six months’ imprisonment for gathering a that they have a stake and will contribute. That must crowd to disturb public order and charges relating to be the ideal not only of one-nation Conservatives but stealing, spying, and buying and illegally providing of the social democrat Labour Party as I have worked state secrets and intelligence to entities outside China. with it and understood it in the past and, indeed, the The Minister referred to some information that she Liberal Democrats as well. had. Could she go into more detail about what is 813 Zhang Kai[22 OCTOBER 2015] Zhang Kai 814 available to the British Government in terms of this I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, for case, and in particular whether further charges have been giving me the opportunity to set out clearly the position made and whether there will be a further hearing? of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office with regard I understand what the Minister said about raising to human rights. What the Permanent Under-Secretary this and other cases. However, will she confirm that made clear in his exchange in the Select Committee is she or other Ministers have had the opportunity to that the issue of human rights underpins everything raise this further case with their Chinese counterparts, that we do at the Foreign Office. It is embedded across either before the current state visit or during it? the Foreign Office. I was concerned that the previous way, in which we set out a list of priorities, meant that Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am there were categories of people in this country who grateful to the noble Lord for making reference to the could look at those priorities and think, “I am not fact that the Government are being consistent in their there; they don’t care about me”. There were people relationship with China and to the fact that we have on that list who might think, “Why am I fourth on the pressed the importance of human rights upon our list?”—freedom of religion and belief or of no religion interlocutors there, because human rights underpin a was fourth. So in seeking to redraft the way in which stable and prosperous society. we present our commitment to human rights, I was driven by the belief that those in the LGBT community On the noble Lord’s first question, with regard to or those who are disabled should realise that we are for the case, I am not in a position to give further information all people. As I mentioned at the PinkNews event last at the moment. What I can say is that it is the usual night at the Foreign Office, no one person is more occurrence for diplomats in post in Beijing to keep a valuable than another; we are all valuable. That is very close watch on any cases that are under way, to what our redrafted approach to human rights makes make attempts to visit people in detention and, when clear, and it is embedded across all departments in the they are brought to trial, to ensure that they make Foreign Office. every attempt to attend those trials. I am advised that, if denied access, they will remain in place in the court Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, will the during the day to make the point that we are trying to Minister confirm that Zhang Kai has been at the see that there is proper judicial process. We have forefront of the fight in the Zhejiang province in assistance in that from our EU colleagues. speaking out for both the registered and unregistered In his second question, the noble Lord asked about churches, more than 1,500 of which have had their the matter of imprisonment and the details of whether crosses removed and been subjected to intimidation or not this issue has been raised, either before or and the kind of discrimination that she has just referred during the course of the state visit. I cannot say to? Will she further confirm that over 280 rights further than I have at present because, as I mentioned lawyers have been detained or disappeared in China very briefly in the Statement, there are continuing since 9 July, including Zhang Kai? Rights lawyers in discussions this afternoon at Chequers and I would China are at the forefront of the defence of Article 18 not wish to try to pre-empt what they may cover. freedoms: the right to believe, to not believe or to change your belief. As a result, their own human rights Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, first, will and freedoms are subject to heavy restrictions. Perhaps the Minister reassure us on one point? The other day, the most well-known rights lawyer, Gao Zhisheng, we heard worrying comments from the new Permanent remains under house arrest after years of imprisonment, Secretary to a Commons committee that the issue of torture and enforced disappearance. I hope that the human rights is now a lower priority in the FCO than Minister will assure us that she will pursue that case. the prosperity agenda. It would be very good, in the Would she be willing to meet, during his present context of issues such as this, to have some reassurance. visit to London, Chen Guangcheng, the barefoot, blind Secondly, could she explain how we have got into such human rights lawyer who was imprisoned for four a contradiction about our approach to countries such years after exposing the coercive one-child policy in as China? We are extremely relaxed about sovereignty China? and Chinese foreign investment and anything else coming in, although human rights is, nevertheless, Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I always do something that we talk about. However, in our relations my very best to meet those who seek to meet me. I have with our European partners we are totally neuralgic, to say that my attention has been somewhat diverted even sometimes hysterical, about invasions of sovereignty, at the moment by the European Union Referendum and do not think that they should have the right to Bill. However, I will certainly see what I can do with talk about human rights at all. How do we handle that regard to his request. I am very glad that the noble Lord, sort of intense contradiction between our approach to Lord Alton, has put on record the work of Zhang Kai, democratic countries such as our European partners which is significant. He is one of those people whose and authoritarian countries such as China? bravery can only be admired by those of us who see the importance of human rights defenders around the Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, we are world. consistent throughout in our approach to human rights The noble Lord is right: we are extremely concerned and in discussing these matters with countries around about the activity of crosses being removed. We are told the world. Fortunately, I do not have neuralgia, either that, sometimes, the rationale behind that is that there mental or physical, and have not detected any sign of are planning restrictions, but it seems odd to us. Certainly, it yet among my colleagues—I will keep watching, detention and disappearance should not be part and though. parcel of a normal judicial system. Perhaps we will 815 Zhang Kai[LORDS] Education and Employment 816

[BARONESS ANELAY OF ST JOHNS] Quite rightly, in your Lordships’ House we often have the opportunity to look at this further when the speak about great, intricate things, but some of the noble Lord has a Question for Short Debate in the things our young people face are very basic. That is Moses Room about Article 18. why we need strong education and employment support It is important that we continue our discussions on opportunities for youngsters in the UK. We must be these matters. Last week at the FCO, my right honourable driven when we see what happens when we do not have friend Hugo Swire, who has country-specific responsibility it. Please do not get me wrong; there is an awful lot of for China, met 14 people from the China NGO Network, excellent work and progress taking place. It just seems representing those who have a particular interest in to me that we have been presented with a window of fighting for human rights in China. opportunity to build and improve on what we have in place, and we have to grasp it. Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab): My Lords, does the During preparation for this debate, I sought to Minister think that one way of responding to the ascertain the data and statistics on those for whom the disconnect alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace right opportunities have been in place but who have of Saltaire, is to say that the deepening of our relations not been able to take advantage of them—those who on industrial and such matters reinforces the need and are NEET. Obtaining those statistics has not been as the moral duty to raise human rights issues? straightforward as I would have hoped. However, I am happy to present to your Lordships’ House consistently Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I certainly reported figures from ONS. From April to June this believe that a constructive economic relationship with year, there were 922,000 young people aged 16 to 24 in another country gives one the opportunity to have a the UK who were not in education, training or stronger voice on why human rights should underpin a employment. That was a welcome decrease of 21,000 stable and responsible government. That voice does from January to March 2015. Some 788,000, or 85%, not have to be a clarion call; it can be more modest. I of these young people were in England. The figures am reminded that Tony Blair made the point that, have remained stubbornly high during a number of “ persuasion and dialogue achieve more than confrontation and strong economic periods and some difficult periods. empty rhetoric”. From April to June, 370,000 NEET young people who I cannot often agree with him, but I do there. were looking for work were classified as unemployed. The remainder were either not looking for or not Education and Employment Opportunities available for work and were therefore classified as “economically inactive”. I will leave noble Lords to try Motion to Take Note to make sense of that. 1.41 pm The Impetus-PEF 2014 annual review for the Moved by Baroness Stedman-Scott ThinkForward programme states that, “For every young person who goes on to become NEET, … That this House takes note of the case for creating £56,000 is lost to the public purse”. the right education and employment opportunities When I looked at the maths—and, believe you me, I in the United Kingdom. had to do it three or four times to make sure I had got it right—those 370,000 young people equated to £21 billion Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): My Lords, I must of lost money to the public purse. If there were ever a first declare my interests, in that I am a governor of case for getting this right, it is now. Bexhill Academy, patron of Rye Studio School and an ambassador for the charity Tomorrow’s People. I speak Those are just the fiscal costs. What about the other not arrogantly but having had 30 years in this field, costs to those who are affected? There are people with and it has consumed me, so it is in my DNA. I shall special educational needs; those with dyslexia; those give some practical examples of the effect of there not on the autistic spectrum; those with mental health being strong education and employment support for issues; those involved in crime; those with addictions; many of our young people. and those suffering family breakdown. To me, family I want to start by giving one example. About 15 years breakdown is one of the biggest generators of people ago, a company asked Tomorrow’s People to help it not being able to achieve their potential. People talk of recruit, induct and integrate 12 unemployed young fiscal poverty; in my book, in this country there is a people into its workforce. One young lady, by her own poverty of hope, a poverty of self-belief and a poverty merit, got the job of booking all the executives’ travel of aspiration for the young people we are talking which, for her, was very exciting. She turned up for about. work on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, The case for a step change has never been greater, but on Friday she was missing. A member of our team but we must not forget the times in which we find went to her house and knocked on her door. It was ourselves. The employment rate is at a record high of about 10.30 am and she came downstairs in her pyjamas. 73.6%, with 31.1 million people in work. Unemployment When asked why she was not at work, she said that she is down to 1.77 million, or 5.4%. Long-term never went to school on Fridays, so she did not think unemployment has fallen to its lowest level since 2009, that she would be missed. The next week exactly the down 526,000—a fall of a quarter compared to the same thing happened. Somebody went to her house same period in 2014. Vacancies are at a record high of and told her to get dressed. She came and the next 783,000. It is easy to make various comparisons, but it week she turned up—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, does not seem right that we have so many young Thursday and Friday. people without employment. All this stands against 817 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 818 the gloom and doom predictions of some that the which remains dormant within a significant portion of opposite would happen—that unemployment would its population. The social benefits will be exponential, be up, vacancies down and the numbers of people in as we create motivated, focused employees where work would fall. We must recognise this success. previously we sought just to shoe-horn young people So let us concentrate on those who, thus far, have into work by any means necessary. By creating an not fulfilled their destiny and ensure that what is in integrated, seamless system where employers have a place will help them to do so. Prevention is better than permanent presence in the national curriculum, the cure and, if early intervention is genuinely accepted as truth of this interdependence can be realised. No being the right thing to do, it is seen by most as an longer should business involvement be artificially divorced investment rather than a cost. The benefits are seen as from the classroom environment. a saving of both social and fiscal capital, rather than Much has been said about careers guidance. The as a cost of putting something right that had not setting up of the Careers & Enterprise Company is worked in the way we had hoped. very welcome. The Leeds pilot has significantly improved The case for creating the right education and business involvement in the enterprise network and employment opportunities needs a little more articulation. enabled 3,500 young people to access new employer-led From my experience, this means that we need to take opportunities. We need an employment model which young people on a journey, starting at school and nurtures the career aspirations of our young people arriving at a destination of a successful transition and we must shift our focus to schools. A careers from school to work. We should be under no illusion guidance process which starts early and is tailored to that, once this destination has been arrived at, it is not individual needs creates a virtuous cycle of employability, the terminus. The journey does not end. There will be rather than a reactive, costly cycle of long-term other phases along the way, but let us hope that we will unemployment. A targeted investment in life employment have given them the confidence and skills to embark and career readiness will create both a dynamic workforce on that next phase with a much less heavy touch of the over the coming decades and reduce the financial support that they will need. strains incumbent on long-term unemployment. I am grateful to all noble Lords who will speak in I want to introduce to your Lordships an initiative this debate—all of whom have areas of expertise on called ThinkForward, a partnership of Impetus-PEF which their contributions will be made. I have no and Tomorrow’s People, which has achieved great success: intention of trying to duplicate these, but I do want to 85% of 14 to 16 year-olds have shown substantial talk about the journey path, about what I have seen improvements in their school attendance and behaviour; work and about what the key components might be. I 60% of the school leavers achieved at least five GCSEs would also like to thank Gideon Levitt for his help in at grades A to C; and 96% of the 17 to 18 year-olds putting this speech together. were in employment, education or training. If you The journey definitely starts at school. Some say it remember the early figures quoted to you on NEET does not start early enough—that it should be at levels, you will see the difference this could make. primary school—but it should start in the education Can the Minister give us the department’s view on the system. How can we build on the excellent progress ThinkForward programme and any indication whether made in our schools? There are a few things. Having this could be offered to all young people, or at the very focused predominantly on the academic path, can we least those most excluded and vulnerable? Let us think now make sure that credible and meaningful vocational about those in care who need this help, those in the routes are bedded down into the school system and criminal justice system and many others. It would be a curriculum? These routes must be credible to employers. good investment to enable them to achieve results and When they are considered, vocational opportunities would negate the need for so many costly rectification are targeted at the most disadvantaged. Might they, programmes. It would enable young people to transition too, not be more appropriate for others who enter the from school to work and be independent, aspirational academic journey only to fall out too quickly? and not dependent on welfare. I will leave it there on I want to make a plea for core life and employability that for now. skills to be part of the curriculum. Perhaps the Minister I want to conclude by telling your Lordships about could let us know the department’s position on this. a young lady whom we helped. She was a bit of a This element of support is left to individual schools handful. She got into so much trouble that she was not whose pressing priorities mean that, where they are allowed to get on the bus to go through her high street included, they are done inconsistently and are very to go to school, so her coach got on the bus with her at much dependent on volunteering with limited resources the beginning of the high street and got off at the end available. Employers need a well-prepared, highly of it. The young lady went to college; the coach met motivated and energised workforce. Employers, too, her on the way back; and she never missed a day at are a critical component to the journey of a young college. And she got a job, which was great. When that person. Again, depending on resources and other priorities, coach was no longer able to support her, or it was employer involvement is not consistently embraced. deemed that she did not need the help, it was not too Please can it be considered, so that all young people long before she came back to us and said, “I’m in big are able to have a good experience of the world of trouble”—the language was a bit more colourful than work? that, but the essence was that she was in big trouble. I By institutionalising the idea of a “career journey” was asked whether I could write a letter to the court to for young people, we can break this vicious cycle of say that she really was a very good girl and that she unfulfilled potential. This will in turn create the right should not go to Her Majesty’s pleasure. I said, “Well, conditions for the country to fulfil the economic potential I couldn’t possibly to do that, because if you’ve done 819 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 820

[BARONESS STEDMAN-SCOTT] made up 81% of the annual rise in employment, up something you’ve got to stand by it”. But I did write to 291,000 on the year. The female employment rate has the judge to say, “This young lady’s had humongous maintained a record high of 68.8%. There is close to a problems and when she’s had her personal coach with record number of women in work, 14.55 million. The her she has proved what she can do. The minute the number of people working part time because they coach wasn’t there, obviously, things went wrong. could not find a full-time job is down 85,000 on the Whilst I don’t condone for one minute what she’s year. The number of disabled people in work is up by done, when she’s got somebody with her, things are 226,000 on the year. More than 3.2 million disabled very different”. I would like to see every young person—I people are now in employment. On average, 1,000 have said this before—with a personal coach, even if it more people are in work each day since 2010. There are is, to start with, for the most disadvantaged, to help a million fewer people on the main out-of-work benefits them on their journey to prevent rather than cure. since 2010. The claimant count rate is at its lowest level I know that there is an elephant in the room—no since 1975. Unemployment is down to 1.77 million, or disrespect to anybody here, I might say. YourLordships 5.4%. The claimant count is down 796,000, down will tell me, “It’ll cost a lot of money”. Well, it almost 160,000 on the year. Long-term unemployment probably will, but it will not cost as much as if we do has fallen to its lowest level since 2009: that is down not do something. I know that social investors and big 526,000, a fall of a quarter compared with this time society capital are ready with finance to inject to pay last year. Finally, vacancies are at a near record level of for such coaches so that we can do something about 738,000. So we should recognise that the Government this and prevent it. I know that the request to the have been doing something right somewhere when we Government for a local outcomes fund to pay only look at what else we should do in the future. when a young person has reached a successful destiny By any measure, that is an outstanding achievement in their journey is pure common sense and good for which we now take for granted. It has been achieved the public purse. So I say to the Minister that it is the because we have the strongest growing economy in curriculum; it is the coaches; and it is a financial Europe. As the EU falls further behind the rest of the model where the computer says yes. I beg to move. world in competitiveness and its economy is in relative 1.56 pm decline, the UK has been powering ahead. Some 2.3 million apprenticeships have been started. There Lord Blencathra (Con): My Lords, I congratulate are 760,000 more new businesses than five years ago. my noble friend on initiating this important debate. It Corporation tax has been cut from 28% to 20% and is not the sexiest subject to debate, but it is vital for the will go down to 18% in the next few years. continuing extraordinary success of our economy and equally important because good jobs and work are the We now need to concentrate on two areas. The first surest means of lifting people out of poverty, however is getting more of those 1.7 million unemployed into that may be defined. those 738,000 vacancies, and second is making sure So I want to begin by congratulating my right that work pays more than being on benefits. I support honourable friend the Chancellor on his extraordinary the work of the Department for Work and Pensions in success over the past five years, which has been hard trying to transform lives by supporting people to find won. He inherited an economy with a record deficit and keep work. I do not know how many of those and government spending was out of control. The 1.7 million would be regarded as unemployable by deficit has now been halved to 5% of GDP and we are employers. That is not a term I like, but it possibly on track to be the fastest growing major advanced describes the attitudes of some people rather than economy for the third year in a row. their abilities. Did some Opposition spokespeople say Our economy is now 11.8% larger than at the 2010 that my right honourable friend Iain Duncan Smith’s election. Statistically, we were then about as bad as reforms would not work and we were doomed to Greece, but whereas Greece decided to do nothing to an unmovable number of workless households and grasp the nettle of government overspending, George permanent long-term unemployment for many people? Osborne decided that we had to take steps to balance Those messages seem to be wrong. His welfare reform the books as soon as possible. It was certainly optimistic and work incentives have resulted in tens of thousands to reduce the deficit as much as he hoped in the last of people moving from benefits into work, so that the Parliament, but if we did not send a signal that we workless household rate is the lowest since records were serious about austerity and living within our began and our long-term unemployment rate is less means, we would have had a run on the pound and than half that of the EU. interest rates out of control. Despite that really awful For many years, Governments of all persuasions starting position left by Gordon Brown, we have got have said that work must pay more than being on economic credibility because of the action taken by benefits. Indeed, Tony Blair commissioned the excellent George Osborne. Frank Field MP to deliver such a scheme. Frank did Therefore, in looking at education and employment so but it was kyboshed by the then Chancellor, Gordon opportunities in the UK today, we can see a completely Brown, who wanted everyone on his tax credit scheme. different scenario than if that disastrous, overspending That is why universal credit is so important: it reduces programme of the last Labour Government had continued. poverty by making work pay. It provides a new, single Let us just look at employment and unemployment system of means-tested support for working-age people figures. The employment rate is at a new record high, 73.6%. and does away with half a dozen other benefits. I am The employment level is at a record high, 31.1 million—up led to believe that early results show that universal by more than 2 million since 2010. Full-time employment credit claimants do more to look for work, enter work 821 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 822 quicker and earn more than jobseeker’s allowance the route out of poverty for all and it will make claimants, and that is the way it should be. Britain the most successful entrepreneurial country in the world. I will say a few words about the minimum wage and the tax credits issue without straying too much into a There have been some excellent changes to vocational debate we may be having next week. When Gordon training but my instinct is that it is still regarded as Brown introduced tax credits, they cost £4 billion. inferior to a university degree. That is so wrong: just This year they will cost £30 billion. Something has look at those brilliant A-level students who turned gone terribly wrong with his system so that, by 2010, down a place at Oxbridge so that they could become nine out of 10 families with children were eligible. apprentices at Rolls-Royce. These people should, as in That is not what Gordon Brown initially intended. It Germany, be entitled to be called Herr Doktor, or at was barking, and coalition Government changes brought least the English version. Germany regards their the figure down to six out of 10 households. I understand engineering skills as being like a doctorate, but we see that the changes, which are currently controversial, them just as car mechanics or grease monkeys. My would bring it down to five out of 10 families. It is noble friend Lord Baker has done a marvellous job patently obvious what we should do to close the gap enhancing the reputation of vocational training and between pay and benefits, and it is not increase benefits. building city technology colleges, but we need to do more to encourage young people to go down these It was inspired of the Chancellor to push up the routes, rather than doing some worthless degree. minimum wage and aim for a living wage, but I urge When the battery in my laptop died recently, I him to go further and faster. We get the usual misguided could not easily replace it. Being a MacBook Pro, it whingeing from the CBI that it will reduce company had to be dismantled, have half the guts removed and profits and increase unemployment. Enhanced company a new battery ordered—one of about 30 possible profits earned on the back of poverty wages is not alternatives—and be repaired by an expert. For anyone moral capitalism. As for unemployment, is it seriously with a broken Mac or iPhone, I recommend Honeylight being suggested that the major supermarkets, Amazon, Computers in Pimlico, which is an Apple repair agent. Starbucks and Pret A Manger—every 10 yards on the I am not on any commission. I do not know whether pavement—are employing additional staff because they the guy who fixed my computer had a degree or a are cheap and that if they had to pay more they would technical qualification, but without him I would have lay staff off and drive for more efficiency? What had to buy a new one at £2,000 instead of paying the nonsense: the big supermarkets and others are employing £150 it cost. His contribution to our, and my personal, the barest number of staff they can get away with and economy was worth £1,850 for that one little job and I paying them the lowest wages they can get away with. could not have done it without him. I contrast that However, the Chancellor’s announcement of the national with the contribution of those graduate social workers living wage in the summer Budget has changed the who destroyed families in the Orkney Islands because conversation about low pay and we have seen pay they thought they were performing naked, outdoor increases announced to meet it early, before the increase witch dancing in February.YourLordships may remember to £7.20 comes into effect in April. the case in 1991: it was dismissed immediately by the This dynamic effect on wages has not been taken judge as utterly incompetent. These two radically different into account in any analysis of the Government’s examples are simply two of millions showing that a changes to date. Nearly 200 firms have agreed to pay degree is no guarantee of competence, common sense the national living wage in recent months. Morrisons or worth, and the ability to fix things and make things has pledged to increase hourly pay to £8.20 from which make our everyday lives infinitely better is no March; Costa Coffee is increasing it; Sainsbury’s has guarantee of good pay or status. put up pay to £7.36; Lidl is now paying £8.20 an hour; In conclusion, I congratulate my noble friend again British Gas is now paying the living wage and IKEA on securing this debate. There is, of course, always has said it will put pay up. This has to be the way to go. more to be done. We need to make all schools free If those companies can do it then so can every other schools; we need even more apprenticeships; we need business. I said this in the Budget debate and I make far better career guidance in schools; we need to no apology for saying it again: it is morally indefensible ensure that no one teaches a subject at secondary level for companies to pay poverty wages, the taxpayer then unless they have a degree in it. I was appalled when I having to pay up so that a family can live. came to England and found teachers with only some The salaries of chief executive officers and teacher training certificate who were not qualified in executives of the FTSE 100 rose by 15% in 2014 and their subject. We need to get into teaching, at all levels, the gap between the highest paid executives and their people who have retired early and are experts—and, lowest paid employees has never been wider. In 1998 more importantly enthusiasts—in their subject and chief executive officers’ salaries were 57 times larger who can enthuse young people. We need to let our best than the average worker’s. Now they are 178 times universities grow and expand to rival the Ivy League larger, and there is no correlation between huge salary in the USA. We have some absolutely rubbish universities increases for executives and company worth, growth and we should let them die, as students voluntarily or profits. The Chancellor’s increase in the minimum switch to better ones. wage is 6% per annum. Since many companies seem Above all, we need Britain to get back its freedom to have had no difficulty paying their directors 15%, I to be a world trading nation again, taking control of want to see the minimum wage pushed up to that level its own destiny and economy and not shackled to a as soon as possible. Everyone should share in a dying and declining European political union. However, company’s success. Being in work, with proper pay, is that may be a debate for another day. 823 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 824

2.09 pm apprenticeships. Worse still, we will not get value for public money. We should be worried on both those Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab): My Lords, I counts. too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, on introducing this debate. She gave a very interesting Referring to an Ofsted report, the article states: and practical analysis, on which I agree with many “Poor-quality apprenticeships were particularly prevalent in areas. I wish I could say the same about the following retail, healthcare, customer service and administration”, contribution. I will resist responding to a number of which account for a very large number of apprenticeships. provocative statements but it was a bit of a Panglossian We should be worried about that and I would be very analysis of this Government’s record and perhaps the interested to hear the response of the Minister. reverse as regards the track record of the previous It continues: Government. “About 140,000 people started apprenticeships in business administration last year and 130,000 began healthcare apprenticeships. The subject of this debate is of supreme importance. Standards were much higher in the motor vehicle, construction I was not necessarily planning to start with these and engineering industries, where numbers were much smaller”. comments but, on looking at today’s papers, I saw a Therefore it can be done but, unfortunately, it is not large headline in the Times stating, “Apprenticeships being done in too many cases. are ‘a waste of money’”. In the past, I have declared an interest in that subject and I found it somewhat painful The article states: to look at that headline. When I found that no less than “Today’s report attacks many employers for failing to invest in Sir Michael Wilshaw, the head of Ofsted, said that, it and supervise apprenticeships”— cannot just be dismissed. I notice the article went on and, even more worrying— to say that: “as well as some of the colleges and training companies that “Kirstie Donnelly, managing director of City & Guilds, which provide them and schools for failing to give informed and impartial gives vocational training, accused Sir Michael of seeking to advice to young people who can benefit”. undermine apprenticeships”. I want to spend a little time on that issue as well. As I That is probably an unwise statement to make. It have said, I will welcome the Minister’s response. would be far better to look at why Ofsted has come to By law, schools are supposed to provide young that conclusion. people with career advice, which should not just consist I am one of the people who applauds this Government of saying to students, “All of you should go on to for their focus on apprenticeships. On many occasions, A-levels and to university”. But far too many secondary I have said I wish that they would get away from schools still do that and do not have proper links with announcing large figures, such as 2 million or 3 million, the business community. Legally, they are supposed to without disaggregating them. I do not think that that do that, so why are the Government not enforcing it? I helps the situation. I am not against a target as such think that it has already been mentioned in this debate but, if we are talking about apprenticeships, we should that there are young people going to university when it be focusing on 16 to 19 year-olds. The noble Baroness is not the right route for them at that age. They drop reminded us of the number of NEETs. The economy out and would have been far better off going on the may be flourishing in all sorts of ways but we still have vocational route. far too many NEETs and significant areas of youth I am part of the Lords outreach programme and unemployment in parts of the country. That is not to still find that when I go to secondary schools and ask discount the progress made. 15 and 16 year-olds where they are going and what The article states: their intentions are, the vast majority say that they are going to university. I do not deplore that but when I “Sir Michael Wilshaw will accuse some employers today of ask whether they know of any alternatives, I am lucky wasting public funds on low-quality schemes that undermine the if one hand goes up and they mention apprenticeships. value of apprenticeships”. Because I cannot stand it any longer, I am complaining We should be worried and concerned about that. I to the teachers. I say, “Why are you not giving the full agree with a few of the points made by the noble Lord, range of advice? You are disadvantaging young people”. Lord Blencathra, including the need to enhance the We need to do a lot more on that. view of apprenticeships so that they are on a par and I make no apologies for again referring to the so that there is not a distinction between a vocational article, which states: route or an academic route. As I have said on many occasions, young people should not be told that it is “It will make sobering reading for ministers, who have pledged an either/or option. A vocational route can often lead to create three million new apprenticeships … Ofsted describes this as a commendable aim”. to an academic route. It really is worrying when one sees a report like this on poor-quality apprenticeships. I agree that it is a commendable aim. It continues, stating that, The Government were aware of the problem that “so far, apprenticeships have not trained enough people for some apprenticeships were as short as six months. We sectors with skills shortages”— knew that they were not really apprenticeships. The Government responded by making the minimum period we have talked about that before as regards the desperate one year. I am not sure whether that is sufficient. The need in engineering and construction—and, way we monitor apprenticeships and check what employers “that smaller businesses are not being involved”. are providing is not sufficient. What are training providers Again, we know that and we are still stuck at the doing? If we do not have a kitemark or a badge of figure of about one in five businesses. It is as though quality, we are going to undermine people’s views of one is driving a car and cannot get the speedometer to 825 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 826 go above 20 or 30 miles an hour. We need to do a lot local areas to participate in the reshaping and re-commissioning more. The article also states that, of local provision to set it on an efficient and financially resilient footing. A differentiated approach to local involvement will be “not enough advanced schemes leading to higher skills and wages adopted which will enable areas with the strongest governance are being created”. and levers to shape provision, building on the skills flexibilities We have a strange situation where there is a demand for agreed with Greater Manchester, London and Sheffield”. apprenticeships. I make no apologies for again citing I do not know why it is only the strongest areas—surely British Telecom because it is a good example. It gets it should be every area. I have asked this in previous about 25,000 applications for 400 to 500 apprenticeships. employment debates: why we are not looking at the There is huge demand. areas covered by the local enterprise partnerships and There is an issue as regards getting young people the best practice in those areas? Why are we not looking ready for apprenticeships. We know that there is work at the areas where they have driven up the numbers of to do on the educational side. I will not spend too much apprentices and where they have the best possible links time on that issue because it was covered by the noble between business and education, and seeing those as Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott. She said that the journey the role models and examples of best practice? I look starts at school, but as a primary school governor I say forward to the Minister’s response. that it starts before school, which is why Sure Start and things like that were and still are important programmes. 2.22 pm One can see a variety of achievement of children Baroness Fookes (Con): My Lords, I am delighted starting nursery school. Some are not even potty-trained that my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott has given us and others do not know how to socialise at all. A big this opportunity to discuss some very important issues. demand is made on primary schools these days. I would like first of all to expand a little on the Think The article states that the Ofsted report’s, Forward scheme, which the noble Baroness mentioned “conclusions were based on … 22 apprenticeship providers, discussions in her opening remarks. I was fortunate enough to with 188 apprentices, a survey of 709 apprentices”. visit a school in London—I shall name no names—where Whether you think that this survey is good enough, the scheme was being carried out. As the noble Baroness there is enough in it to give us real cause for concern. explained, it involves a coach or mentor staying with a It continues: particular pupil over a period of years and giving “Some apprentices were not aware that they were classed as them real support, very often in difficult circumstances. such, while others did not receive broader training or support to I met about half a dozen young people in receipt of improve their English and maths. In the retail, catering and care industries, inspectors found apprentices cleaning floors, making this help. The difficulties that they had to face were an coffee or serving sandwiches”. eye-opener to me: chaotic home conditions; fellow I am not sure that I necessarily disagree that they pupils who thought them stupid for trying to better should have to do that. Doing a job involves a wide themselves academically; the general world outside range of applications. The problem comes when they school, where there was precious little hope; and a kind are doing it to the exclusion of being taught a wider of resistance to doing better for oneself. All manner of curriculum—when there is no proper learning programme. obstacles are put in the way of anybody even trying to We must remember that with apprenticeships we are make the most of their school education. Think Forward trying to equip young people for a career, with skills is a most valuable system, which—echoing my noble that we hope will be transferable and enable them to friend’s words—I certainly hope the Minister will take progress in later life. I have been working my way through on board, to see if it can be rolled out on a much wider the Library Note on this debate, which is extensive basis. and makes fascinating reading, especially when it looks I like to think of the mentor or coach as the nearest at the changing nature of the world of work. equivalent any of these young people will get to a I ask the Minister whether we have the balance well-educated and supportive parent. We all know right between funding levels for vocational training, the value of a supportive family when it comes to further education and higher education. I ask that achievements at school and thereafter. All the other because we have had another report from Professor schemes that we have tried certainly have their value, Wolf—the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf—expressing but I think this one-to-one scheme is the most valuable concern about the level of funding in further education. of all, and I certainly hope that it will receive a warm If we wish to drive up the number of apprentices in the appreciation from the Minister and a commitment to way that the Government suggest, it is worrying to hear try to extend it nationwide. alarm bells ringing in relation to funding. I am not I now turn to the wider scene, which other Peers here to proselytise on either one or the other. However, have already touched upon: the issue of further education. where I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra— I sometimes feel that there is a distinct snobbery in this although I am not sure that I agree with his analogy country about education, a very firm division where about the laptop repairer and the social worker—is on universities are seen as good and further education as his point that it is just as important for us to get funding the poor relation. I deplore that, because they should right in further education as it is in higher education. be working in collaboration and partnership; one should We should not see them as completely separate silos. not be seen as better than the other. In the attempt to Another point in the government document interested get more young people to go to university, successive me. It says: Governments have gone rather overboard and, in doing “The government wants strong local areas and employers to so, have deprived people of very good chances of take a leading role in establishing a post-16 skills system that is finding fulfilment and qualifications in another way. responsive to local economic priorities. The government will I hope that the Minister will take that on board in make an offer to local areas … First, the government will invite her reply. 827 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 828

[BARONESS FOOKES] Many years ago—literally in another century—I It is extraordinary that spending is ring-fenced for was a schoolteacher. It was always my wish that education on the whole, but not for further education. the pupils under my care would do the very best that Is that not an indictment of the way we organise they could, but it was not always going to be in things? We know that further education colleges have the direction of university. We really should be much considerable financial worries, yet they can be responsible keener on providing a whole series of alternative for so many people finding fulfilling and rewarding vocational arrangements. The various types of further careers. I hope very much that this will be looked at. education colleges can offer that. I believe that half Mention has also been made of careers education. the apprenticeships come from colleges as it is. There Again, there are some very sharp failings in this area. are also all these other skills that they can offer, but As somebody has already pointed out—perhaps it was will they be able to offer them if they are worried stiff the noble Lord, Lord Young—teachers and career about their financial resources? Again, I leave that advisers barely mention any alternative to going to point for my noble friend the Minister to answer. university. That is absolutely deplorable. There are Meanwhile, I again thank my noble friend for the many ways of setting about these things, and pursuing excellent opportunity that she has afforded us. one option does not preclude another later on, if people suddenly turn out to have a particular academic 2.31 pm bent. We have long passed the days when it was either brawn or brain. The brawn bits are now undertaken by Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD): My Lords, I machines. What we need is a whole range of people have particular cause to thank the noble Baroness, who have manual skills allied with intelligence and Lady Stedman-Scott, for organising this debate. I had are able to put them to good use. I feel very strongly hoped to speak in the apprenticeship debate last week, about this. but I had prior commitments that meant I could not. I am therefore very pleased indeed that this debate, What is more, we have a number of skills shortages. which to some extent picks up some of the same Here we are, worrying about the ability of young issues, is taking place. I need to declare several interests. people to get jobs and keep them, and yet we have I am a patron of the 157 Group of large FE colleges. I these skills shortages. This is particularly true in the am an honorary fellow of the City & Guilds of London world of horticulture. Perhaps I had better declare my Institute and of Birkbeck College. non-financial interest here as chairman of the All-Party I began my career back in the 1960s when I was a Parliamentary Gardening and Horticulture Group. young assistant lecturer at the London School of We are constantly hearing about worries over lack of Economics. At the time there was a technique known skills. Ask any schoolteacher or careers adviser whether as growth accounting, which looked at where economic they have recommended the world of horticulture as a growth comes from, given the three factors of production possible career, and you can almost bet that they will that economists identified: land, labour and capital. not have done. Both the National Trust and the Royal With land not being regarded as an expandable resource, Horticultural Society have very serious concerns. Even on the whole growth was accounted for by the increase last week, in the latest edition of Horticulture Week, in the population—of labour supply—and the increase the industry’s newspaper, there was a headline that in capital supplies in terms of investment. When they says: “Arboriculture sector faces key skills shortage”. looked at the growth figures, they came up with what This is in the world of arboriculture: the planting, they called the “unexplained increment” in economic care and surgery of trees. One of the experts in the growth. This was put down on the one hand to technical field, who recruits, says that his company is having real progress and on the other to education—improvements worries about fulfilling key skills, to the point where it in the capabilities of the labour force. is hardly able to fulfil contracts. He says that colleges Those two elements have to some extent dominated offer qualifications up to level 3, but his company my interests since then. I went on from the London needs people with level 6 qualifications and they are School of Economics to play a part during the late not finding them in sufficient quantities. That is just 1970s in Neddy—the National Economic Development one small example of our shortage difficulties. Office. Subsequently, I went to the Science Policy I now turn to apprenticeships, already touched Research Unit in the University of Sussex, where I did upon by several others today. I, too, am less concerned a lot of work on research and development, and the about actual numbers than about the skills of apprentices. role of research and development in promoting growth. Let us remember that in centuries past, many apprentices I came to this House in 1998. Since then, education would work for seven years, under a very skilled has dominated my interests, particularly further and craftsman or workman, before they were allowed to higher education. call themselves fully engaged workmen or craftsmen. I Going back to those days in Neddy, though, my am not suggesting that we now need seven years to do job in the early 1980s was a very interesting one—a all this, but the ideas of “quality” and “apprenticeships” project looking at where Britain would be going in the should be one and the same. Anything that means that 1990s. We called it the 1990s project. At the time, we an apprenticeship is watered down and not really identified an important trend. We had begun to see worth it is not an apprenticeship. That is just a half-baked the disappearance of manufacturing industry in course, leading to half-baked qualifications. I want Britain. The textile, shoe and television industries were none of it. Apprenticeships should be restricted to disappearing to what were then called the newly where there are real, quality skills. Again, it is something industrialising countries, such as South Korea and about which I feel very strongly. Taiwan. 829 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 830

What became increasingly apparent in our work—this straight into jobs with A-levels or their equivalent picks up a phrase used by the noble Baroness, Lady vocational qualification of BTEC, while others pursue Fookes—was the fact that Britain had to live by brain jobs with lower-level GCSEs and vocational options. rather than brawn and that it would be very necessary Training on the job is the main source of training to expand education generally. In those days only for these young people. Since 2011 the majority of about 12% of the age cohort went to university. On the apprenticeships have gone to those already employed. one hand it was about expanding higher education—one Most are not, as the public image of apprenticeships saw through the 1980s, particularly at the end of the suggests, in sectors such as construction and engineering. 1980s, under the noble Lord, Lord Baker, when he was As the noble Lord, Lord Young, said, the majority Secretary of State for Education, this very rapid expansion have actually been in sectors such as care, hospitality of the higher education sector—but we also recognised and business administration—those low-pay, low-skill that skills were vital. We began a series of surveys of jobs in the lower half of the hourglass. And most of skills. I remember an OECD study that identified that these have been one-year apprenticeships, leading to a Britain had an unduly high proportion of those with level 2 qualification—equivalent to GCSE with five A no skills and low skills. In particular, we lacked the to C grades. Government pressure means that employers intermediate skills—the HNDs and HNCs, the are shifting to providing longer apprenticeships of two technician-level skills—that we needed. or three years leading to a level 3 qualification—equivalent Roll forward to the present day and we still have to an A-level—but this has yet to take effect. very considerable skills shortages. The total number The big skills shortages are at the technician level—the employed in the UK is 31 million. As the noble Lord, HND level—and we are not meeting them. The UK Lord Blencathra, said, that is the highest number of therefore ends up with a large number of young people people employed in this country ever. Of those, 23 million going into the low-skill, low-pay sectors, receiving are in full-time employment and 8 million in part-time little by way of further training and with very little employment. Some 26 million are employed by other opportunity to develop a career pathway and upgrade people and 5 million are self-employed. Self-employment their skills. It is hardly surprising that of every four and part-time employment have increased over the last people who were in low-paid jobs 10 years ago, three two decades, even though, as the noble Lord, Lord are still in low-paid jobs today. Blencathra, suggested, it has decreased slightly in the last few years. The other side of the coin is that the UK, in comparison with our competitors, is well supplied This is very interesting in itself: the shape of the with graduates—but we continue to suffer chronic labour market has become increasingly what some shortages of those with intermediate and technician-level people call the “hourglass economy”. The top of the skills. The CBI recently reported that nearly 60% of hourglass reflects the fast growth of high-skill, high-pay employers—not just horticulturists and the arborealists— professional and managerial occupations, particularly are worried that their operations will suffer because those where skills are combined with technical and they cannot recruit people with the technical skills engineering capabilities. The bottom of the hourglass required. also reflects fast-growing areas of employment, but ones which are generally the low-skill, low-pay service Over the next 10 years, some 12 million of the UK’s sectors associated with personal care—children and 31 million workforce are due to retire, while the number older people, healthcare and healthy living—and the of those emerging from the education system— hospitality industry: restaurants, fast food, hotels and approximately 600,000 a year—will total only 7 million. tourism. Many of those due to retire may stay in work longer, but this only serves to emphasise how important it is The big change has been the drastic reduction in that there should be a route by which those already in middle-range, blue collar management and clerical work can upgrade their skills or retrain, in order to occupations. While these changes have in part been meet the country’s skills needs. Otherwise the trend, driven by technology, they also reflect globalisation which is already apparent in UK industry, of filling and the push for more flexible labour markets. In turn, those crucial vacancies with skilled workers trained flexible labour markets have led to an increase in overseas will become the norm. Meanwhile, many of subcontracting in both public and private sectors, those leaving school with relatively low skills will be more self-employment and the rise of the zero-hours locked into the low-skill, low-pay sector. culture. Skills shortages mean that the expansion of the high-pay, high-skill sector has been accompanied The scandal is that, just when we need to provide by relatively higher pay, while the low-skill, low-pay progression routes for upgrading skills, it is becoming sectors, although expanding in numbers, have seen more and more apparent that the Government are little or no increase in their relative pay. closing down those opportunities. The only game in town is apprenticeships. Outside apprenticeships, the The general advice now given to young people is, adult skills budget has already been cut by 11% since not surprisingly, to aim for the high-skill high-pay 2013 and is scheduled for a further cut of 24% over the occupations at the top end of the hourglass. This gold next two years. The traditional pathway for individuals route—five GCSEs at grades A to C, A-levels and on wishing to retrain and acquire higher level skills—HNDs, to university—is now followed by almost 50% of the HNCs and foundation degrees taken part-time at a cohort of school leavers. But what of the other slightly further education college—has all but collapsed, while more than 50%? Much noise is made about fees have trebled. Although loans are available, the apprenticeships, but in fact only 6% of those school terms are much less favourable than for degree-level leavers go into apprenticeships. Some of the rest go students—and many mature students, already encumbered 831 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 832

[BARONESS SHARP OF GUILDFORD] I agree with this. It is not good for prisoners to sit idly with mortgages or high rents, balk at the increased in their cells. Learning the skills and discipline of indebtedness. So if you cannot persuade an employer working life is important, because, we hope, it will to fund you through a higher-level apprenticeship, help them go out and live a law-abiding life. there is very little you can do. However, what is harder to accept is that victims of Alison Wolf—the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, as crime do not seem to be given the same help and support. she now is—in her latest publication, Heading for the Once the offender has been sentenced, victims of crime Precipice: Can Further and Higher Education Policies often feel left with nowhere to go and very lonely lives, be Sustained?, concludes that the result of current which they have to pull themselves up from. policies—I must confess that these are coalition policies as well as the policies of the current Government—is Believe you me, the impact of a crime can last for that: many years; indeed, it never leaves you for the rest of your life. We are all different, and crime affects us all “In post-19 education, we are producing vanishingly small numbers of higher technician level qualifications, while massively in different ways. It can impact on a young person’s increasing the output of generalist bachelors degrees and low-level ability to attend school. It can affect their concentration vocational qualifications”. or ability to retain information. More than anything, This as an immensely short-sighted policy and I hope it crushes their self-confidence and destroys their belief that the Government will do something about it. that they are capable of doing or achieving anything. I am standing here because I have seen my three young 2.43 pm daughters struggle to retain the very abilities they were brought up with—their self-confidence and their belief Baroness Newlove (Con): My Lords, I too congratulate in life gone. Lack of access to appropriate psychological my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott on bringing this support meant that my daughters never felt part of debate to the House. I had some reservations as to society—yet society had let them down. how I could support my colleague on the subject of education and employment opportunities in the United My eldest daughter had been an A* student. She Kingdom—so I shall speak wearing several hats today, had a place at university, but felt unable to carry and I hope that my words will have a place in this debate. through her academic achievements and do what she had walked into that university with her father to do. There are many things I could say about the value Her confidence had been destroyed. My youngest of work. Much has been written by greater minds than daughter really struggled, at 12, to get up to go to mine about its importance to individuals, to communities school, and was living in a bubble, thinking that no and to the economy. But for me personally, it was one ever really cared about her, or could understand Barack Obama who summarised what it meant when her mood swings. My middle daughter’s GCSEs had he said, gone for ever: she could not get over what had happened “The best way not to feel hopeless is to get up and do to her—because nobody sat and spoke to her to ask something. Don’t wait for good things to happen to you. If you how she felt, or about the trauma she was going go out and make some good things happen, you will fill the world with hope, you will fill yourself with hope”. through. More importantly, they were all grieving for Following the murder of my late husband Garry their father at that early age. Newlove in 2007, and the ordeal of watching my three What saddens me is that I meet many victims of young daughters appear as witnesses at a trial, I felt crime throughout the country, all saying the same angry, frustrated and traumatised. But I had to think thing. We are all too familiar with the numbers of about my three daughters and their future. I had to children who have suffered lengthy and systematic think of a way of providing for them financially and in abuse. We are more aware than ever of how domestic terms of health, but I was also determined that they abuse physically and mentally destroys the victim, and would grow up, as Garry would have wanted them to, we know about the lasting damage that it causes as healthy, happy young women whose lives would not children who witness such acts. be entirely defined by their loss of their father on that More recently, we have learned about the horror of night. So I took hold of my anger, frustration and those forced into years of sexual and physical slavery outrage and put it to work. after being trafficked into this country. Many of these In October 2010 I was proud and honoured to people will need a wide range of psychological and become the government champion for safer communities, practical help. Without it, they are unlikely to recover and more so in December 2012, when I became the sufficiently to take up and enjoy the benefits of regular Victims’ Commissioner for England and Wales. Although employment or education. It is therefore essential that I would not go so far as to say that work saved my life, all departments work together to provide whatever a I know that Mr Obama was right when he said that victim needs to help them recover. In some cases, the best way not to feel hopeless is to get up and do victims of domestic abuse and sexual abuse will have something. That is the rule I live by, and the rule that I turned to drink and drugs. Many victims can find have instilled in my three daughters. themselves without a stable place to live, and many Employment needs to be accessible to everyone, will not have acquired or retained the skills that enable and we should develop policies to bring this about. them to compete in the job market. When the Government Everyone should have the ability to reach their potential develop their many training, apprenticeship and and to find work that is meaningful, secure and satisfying. employment schemes, they need to consider that these Some people may need help to achieve this. In his opportunities can be accessed by some victims of recent conference speech, the Secretary of State for crime only if they have first received help in other Justice spoke about the importance of work for prisoners. areas of their life. 833 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 834

At the risk of saying the obvious, most people can I want to talk about the benefits to educational hold down a job only if they have somewhere safe to achievements that academies and free schools have live, are free from debilitating addictions and have a created, particularly Ark, because I know a lot about healthy body and mind. So I encourage the Government it, and then explain some of the helpful ways in which to ensure that their plans for promoting employment the Government have expanded the programme and, consider how their programmes can be accessed by all indeed, most importantly, extended it to primary schools potential applicants. This means thinking not just and beyond because, as several other speakers have about what employment plans should be produced by said, the problems of the most needy need to be the Department for Work and Pensions, but about addressed very early. how the Home Office, health, education and justice departments can come together to ensure that barriers Education was a transformational factor in my life, to education and employment are reduced or removed. and as a former grammar school boy, I used to be a Of course, that will not be easy. Bringing agencies passionate believer in having more grammar schools together to make education or employment a realistic as a major driver of social mobility, as it was for me prospect for those who have been damaged and and, indeed, many of the parliamentarians who sit in traumatised will be hard work, but the best preparation this House and another place. However, when I started for good work tomorrow is to do good work today. looking at the data for the charities affecting the neediest, I realised that while grammar schools did help I stand here wearing many hats, but I speak as a large percentage of able students to achieve their full somebody who has lost a husband and who is now the potential, indeed, incredible results, sadly, the attainment only supporting parent of three beautiful young women. gap opens up in the early years for the most disadvantaged When victims are handed reports by the criminal in our society. Most children in receipt of free school justice system saying that offenders are now getting meals, which is one very important measure of poverty, education programmes and employment and skills would never make it into a selective school at the age programmes because they were damaged in their of 11, as socio-economic factors and, in some cases, early lives, please think about—the time has come for parental and family issues, will help determine the results the Government to think about—what it really feels of an 11-plus exam. Hence, despite having enormous like for victims whose lives have been damaged and respect for the achievements of all good and outstanding traumatised not by their own hand, but by somebody schools, including grammar schools as well as academies else. We need better support for victims and to give and all other schools, and particularly the staff who young people the education and employment support work in them, sadly, I cannot accept that grammar they need for a healthy future. schools alone will achieve the social mobility needed to break the cycle of intergenerational poverty that 2.52 pm affects many parts of our country. Lord Fink (Con): My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott on securing this I should explain that all of Ark’s schools are non- debate on a most important subject. Her knowledge selective and almost all are in areas of major economic and powerful advocacy of young people is well known deprivation. The few that are not are in areas of very and certainly appreciated by many in this House. poor historical educational outcomes. Many, including I also point to my entries in the Register of Interests, my academy—Ark Burlington Danes—have high levels which include a range of non-financial interests in of free school meals and pupil premiums, some up to, children’s charities. I wish to highlight my trusteeship and even beyond, 75%, which is over three times the of Ark, which is generally an educational charity national average. You have to be pretty poor to get free which operates one of the largest chains of academies school meals. and free schools in the country. As well as being a Good academies with great teaching staff are achieving trustee of Ark, I also have the privilege of being chair remarkable results for the most disadvantaged pupils. of the board of governors at Ark Burlington Danes In fact, most Ark academies—we have several dozen Academy, a school in the White City area of London now—are rated good or outstanding by Ofsted and that I sponsored through Ark. achieve results well above the national average, despite The debate so far has been wide-ranging and fascinating poverty levels among their intake and prior attainment across the whole range of employment, apprenticeships, which would suggest that the students would achieve further education and, most movingly, from my good results markedly lower. I have to pay tribute to the noble friend Lady Newlove on the subject of victims executives at Ark, led by Lucy Heller, and the staff of crime, which is an area that I had not even contemplated and senior leadership teams at our schools for these for this debate. Because I have spent the majority of achievements and for their incredibly hard work. These my time in and around schools, I want to focus my speech schools are managing to get some of the poorest on primary and secondary education and on some of students into the best universities in the country, including the achievements of Government in these areas, which Oxford and Cambridge. Many of the others go on to have largely built on the remarkable academy initiative very useful jobs indeed, including some to apprenticeships, started by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and passionately although I will leave that subject to others who know supported, and then championed, by the then Education far more about it than me. But what is important to Secretary, Michael Gove and further by Nicky Morgan, me is that whatever their pathway, the school helps the current Education Secretary, who between them them identify the right pathway, and the students have have greatly expanded the academy programme and the confidence and resilience to shine at universities or moved it through to free schools, which to most intents places of work due to the extra work, initiatives and and purposes are very similar to academies. experiences that have been gained in school. 835 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 836

[LORD FINK] My school, Burlington Danes, eventually got Ark uses a mixture of techniques to achieve this permission to open a primary school last year. We started, success and indeed is often rated the highest performing in effect, in large porter cabins in an existing outbuilding. academy chain in the country. It starts with a real I went into that school last week. It has been operating focus and incentive to get full attendance at school. for probably six weeks this year and already I saw a When I first looked at secondary schools, I saw schools bunch of four and five year-olds who had started to with attendance rates as low as 80% and, in some make progress. I could see them beginning to learn how cases, the teacher attendance rates were nearly as low to read with the use of synthetic phonics and, using as the pupils’, which shows some of the intrinsic the maths curriculum, they were starting to be able to problems for both the schools and the problems for add up and understand numbers after just a few weeks. teachers teaching in a school with poor discipline, so They also showed amazing discipline. They moved we have rigorous attention to discipline and an extended seamlessly from their desks to a bug board where they school day because many children do not have facilities sat down for the lesson taking place. When they did not at home to do their homework, and we focus on depth move quietly and efficiently the teacher asked them to before breadth. do it again, and they did. I believe that sort of discipline, instilled early in a career, will hold them in good stead The recruitment, training and promotion of many for the rest of their schooling—indeed for life. good young teachers who are generally fully qualified I hope your Lordships believe that education should in their degree subject, including many Teach First never be the subject of political infighting. I am privileged teachers, combined with a very creative approach to at Ark to work with the Labour Peer, the noble Baroness, the curriculum and innovation, including a programme Lady Morgan of Huyton, as well as the prominent called Mathematics Mastery that was modelled around Liberal Democrat supporter, Paul Marshall. Truthfully, the Singapore maths curriculum, which is a country we have seldom, if ever, had any disagreement on our that is rising up the league tables in mathematics, more goals and virtually none on the methods for achieving or less mirroring Britain’s sad decline in maths, has the best for each student, particularly the most helped to achieve our goals at primary level, where we disadvantaged, who we focus on. are achieving levels of achievement for young children I also want to do something that we perhaps do not that are beyond any expectations. do enough and pay real tribute to the teaching profession. As I said earlier, the main focus at Ark has always I have direct experience with the teaching profession at been depth before breadth. We want to ensure that Ark schools. As well as many curriculum differences, literacy and numeracy are totally hardwired because, we have saddled them with expectations which are without this, it is difficult for students to benefit from beyond anything that they or the Fischer Family Trust the rest of the school curriculum or, indeed, get a job; tables would have children achieving, when there is the if you are not numerate and literate other things really intake we have. In many cases that has involved a lot do not matter. of extra work for the teachers. Frankly, provided that we could convince them that what we were doing was How are the Government helping? They are generally in the best interests of their students, the teachers have increasing the number of academies and free schools never stinted in their efforts and their enthusiasm. by changing the paradigm away from the original I hope I have given your Lordships’ House an concept, under which too much was spent on each insight into some of the factors that enable disadvantaged school’s capital cost because the sponsor was allowed young people to have a better chance of success in a its own choice of architect; many expensive architects more competitive world. were used. New schools were meant to cost £10 million to £15 million, but most of the data that I have seen 3.04 pm suggest the average cost was in excess of £20 million. The programme has been made more sustainable by Baroness Jenkin of Kennington (Con): My Lords, I using refurbished schools and stopping the use of hope it is appropriate to pay tribute both to the noble famous architects. Indeed, based on our data—the Lord, Lord Fink, and to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, Minister will probably have more accurate data—the who spoke earlier this week on the Education and average cost today of a similar academy is less than Adoption Bill, for their extraordinary leadership in £15 million. That is a cost reduction of about one-third setting up both the Ark chain and the Harris chain of per school, which clearly makes it more affordable to academies. Their inspiring leadership is leading the build more. way for educational achievement and changes in this country and we should be very grateful to them and Another big improvement has been extending the the many others involved in this. programme to primary schools and encouraging its The case for creating the right education and use all through schooling, from four to 18 years old, employment is clear and I thank my noble friend Lady and beyond this, by trying to include nursery provision. Stedman-Scott for providing us with the occasion to When it first looked at academies, Ark was convinced, debate this topic. The opportunities and, indeed, the based on experiences in America, that for schools to challenges so ably set out by my noble friend, vitally be genuinely transformational they had to start younger. important as they are, must be for all the UK population. In many of the secondary schools it opened at that Opportunities in education and employment must be time, the first year or two were spent on remedial aimed not only at those who will be entering the work, trying to offset levels of literacy and numeracy workforce for the first time, but also at those who wish that were often two to four years behind expectations. to stay in their jobs; to continue to progress fulfilling This limited the teaching time available for GCSEs. careers; or to join or rejoin the workforce in later life. 837 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 838

I would like to talk about the workforce of the Family compiled the views of workers and business leaders, “third age” because of a round-table discussion I and happily revealed a far more appreciative view: recently attended, organised by the Centre for Social 85% of employees, and a similar number of employers, Justice and the Scottish Widows Centre for the Modern welcome the skills and experience that older workers Family. I thank them for their advice in preparing for bring. this debate. I learned a lot about the reality of older Given this context, it is clear that any discussion people in work—the drivers and barriers, the different around increasing the number of people in appropriate roles in tackling old age and employment and how and fulfilling work must include consideration of those health plays a part—from eminent specialists such as who are approaching what would previously have Professor Sir Cary Cooper and Chloe Wright from been thought of as retirement age. Carers UK. I am glad to have the chance to raise and share, in this Chamber, a number of the important The challenge to extend working lives is threefold. issues which were discussed at that meeting. First, there is the need to change perceptions of older people in the workforce, among both employees and We know that we as a society are older than ever before. employers—not, I think, an issue in this particular Thankfully, many of us will retain good health into place of work. I welcome the fact that from April of our later years. The Government’s abolition of the default this year older claimant champions have been introduced retirement age, so that workers can no longer be forced in each of the seven Jobcentre Plus groups. These out, and the extension of flexible working rights, has specialists will work with work coaches and employer- seen more and more people working into what would facing staff to raise the profile of older workers, to have once been considered retirement years. More highlight the benefits of employing older jobseekers than a quarter of the national workforce, approximately and to share best practice. As the former business 8 million people, are aged between 50 and 64. A further champion for older workers, my noble friend Lady 1.1 million workers are aged 65 or over. Working later Altmann did much to challenge outdated views of and longer is the new norm. older people, to actively promote the business case and However, employment rates decline as people get the benefits of employing older workers, and to engage older and these age groups remain less likely to be in both employers and employees on these issues. We work. The latest Labour Force Survey found that 67% must continue to build on her work. of 50 to 64 year-olds are in employment, compared to 81% of 25 to 49 year-olds. Only around 10% of people Secondly, we must support businesses to provide aged over 65 are in work. One in four women and one the flexibility and support that older people may require in six men who reach the state pension age have not to remain in the workforce. Older workers are more worked since 55. likely than young people to be affected by disability or caring pressures, out-of-date qualifications and skills, The rapid demographic change being experienced and discrimination—both intentional and unconscious by our ageing society means it is increasingly urgent to —by employers. Nor should we assume that older address premature exit from the labour market. Doing workers will be able to, or wish to, remain in their so would bring a significant boost to our economy. current jobs. Scottish Widows research found that Recent estimates from the Department for Work and almost half the over-55s intending to stay in work are Pensions—which has been undertaking much welcome planning to shift to a part-time role; for example, to work on this topic—found that adding just one year to help family members with childcare support. Flexibility the average working life would increase gross domestic is a vital component in retaining this top talent, and product by 1% every year. In 2014, this would have we frequently see that those considered to be the best amounted to £17 billion. employers are thought of as such because they appreciate It is not only on a national level but also within and adapt to the wider circumstances of their staff. individual workforces that the benefits of retaining The same report found that 50% of employees currently and supporting an experienced workforce can be believe that their organisation is supportive of older measured. The hardware chain B&Q, for example, has workers, but only 18% believe that their employer been at the forefront of employing older people for would continue to support them if they expressed a more than 20 years. It has seen its staff turnover desire to reduce their hours. greatly reduced, as well as improved customer service We should also consider that older workers will from staff, who have lived in their own homes for have physically demanding roles which may need to be many years and have personal experience in DIY. adapted to allow them to remain in employment. The I have spoken before in this Chamber about the DWP has recently launched sector-specific toolkits to importance of diverse workforces. Businesses which provide guidance for employers of older people. The are able to harness and retain talent from all aspects of experience and skills which develop over a long career society are stronger performers and better attuned to do not need to be lost from a business, and mentoring their client and customer base. My comments on this roles can be a particularly important consideration; issue have usually focused on the role of women in we know that many older workers thrive when they are business, but the same evidence applies to older workers, able to help younger colleagues succeed. and increasingly so, as the number of people in this Thirdly, there is a need to work with the older age group continues to grow. people themselves, to support them in gaining new The stereotype of an older worker is too often employment opportunities and to help them access deemed to be someone with outdated practices who is the retraining and education that they may require for waiting for the opportunity to retire. However, a recent the rapidly evolving employment market. Department report from the Scottish Widows Centre for the Modern for Work and Pensions research has found that 839 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 840

[BARONESS JENKIN OF KENNINGTON] Having stated the obvious, I will go into what has unemployed people over 50 are more likely than others been suggested. We are talking about our education to remain unemployed for longer and are more likely system. One thing that was referred to again and again to be economically inactive. The Government have was the fact that we tend to pray to certain education made considerable efforts to directly address this point. gods. The A-levels and university path, the one I went A pilot project, launched in April this year, introduces down, gets quite a lot of prayer quite a lot of the time targeted provision of work academies and work experience from most of us, because most of the people who programmes for older people where age is a barrier to make decisions went down it. As the noble Lord, Lord finding work. Separately, from May this year, the Fink, said, one of the most important observations is, DWP has trialled an enhanced approach for career “What I did is right”. We all know that. When our advice and reviews for older claimants, and has provided teachers go down this path, they say, “Pray at the same dedicated IT support to guide older people through altar I did, because how could I have possibly made a modern job-search techniques. mistake?” I conclude with an acknowledgement that not all My noble friend Lady Sharp, with her usual forensic workers will wish to remain in their job. For some, analysis, said that we have always failed to address the working in later life will be a simple consequence of areas where we have skills shortages. I have been feeling as though they effectively cannot afford to hearing in this Chamber for well over 25 years that at retire. For women in particular, gaps in employment HND, technician level we are underachieving in our may mean a working life of low-paid and unfulfilling skills base. There is no argument about that. It is a employment which does not provide transferrable skills. very old song. So how do we get to these groups which At present, two-thirds of working women over 50 are have been underperforming, traditionally, and get them employed in just three sectors—education, health and into the right type of employment to guarantee them a retail—and the Scottish Widows research found that while valuable way forward? Unless we start to recognise more than a third of men want to continue working that there is more than one way to skin this particular because they like their jobs, barely one in 10 women cat, we are going to get into real trouble. We need to feels this way. For these people, the importance of intervene in the teaching process, because that is where part-time learning should not be underestimated. It the most intervention is required, and show that there can provide an opportunity to change their job but are other ways of making a decent living and giving not give up work altogether. yourself some status. As we in this House are only too well aware, older We all know what teachers should be doing all the people play a vital role—one which will only increase—in time, and the average teacher could spend several both our national workforce and the businesses, large decades in training and not fulfil our requirements. and small, which comprise it. With the continued focus How do we deal with this? There is a very good case of government, good business practice and a rebalancing for at least doubling the length of teacher training. I of the way in which we think about older generations, would like far more recognition to be given to special I hope that this contribution may be better recognised. educational needs, and I will be bringing this issue to As a starting point, I encourage my noble friend on your Lordships’ attention in the future. If you do not the Front Bench to ensure that the older generations know how to intervene and get your message across, are included in all conversations on this issue. you will always be at a huge disadvantage, no matter how willing and able you are. If you spend time on 3.14 pm catch-up, the good will follow; those who follow the herd will follow, if you do it properly; the rest will slip Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, I thank the noble away. A teacher should not have to be a saint; they Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, for bringing this subject should merely be competent at their job. The vast to our attention. It has been a very interesting debate, majority of us, when doing our jobs, are doing what is which has covered a plethora of activity. I agree with required of us. How do we educate teachers to take her wholeheartedly that early intervention pays. Every these options? single person who has looked at getting the best out of a workforce knows that if you get in early and get your A less prayed-to idol, but one that is definitely preparation right, you get a result. improving its status, is apprenticeships. Everybody thinks apprenticeships are wonderful. I have spent a lot of The noble Baroness started off by looking at those time pointing out that they miss out on, for example, people who have problems and for whom you need to support for those with special educational needs. I intervene. She said that the journey starts with school. raised a case involving dyslexia, and I faced huge I would challenge her on that. I think the journey starts resistance in trying to change the structure of this new with your parents. The intervention starts the minute shiny thing which was going to answer all the problems. you have any organised education. Early intervention pays because that is when you can see where you We still have not got it right. There is still not should be intervening and giving that support. Clearly, enough intervention to bring in the groups who are all the social problems that we have talked about mean most likely to be linked and who are most likely to that that person is less likely to be employed; more acquire those skills. So how do we bring them together? likely to get caught up in anti-social activity and, How do we have a coherent strategy of investing in indeed, the criminal justice system; and less likely to further education to make sure we enhance our workforce? contribute to the well-being and happiness of the First, we need to make sure that those who are making nation. That is accepted by everyone. The question is: the decisions have the skills to intervene and offer how do we start to address this? encouragement. If you intervene you may well, as the 841 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 842 noble Baroness said, stop people thinking that activities should talk to each other. It is called sport. Read the such as gaining qualifications are “not for people like sport consultation paper. It is wonderful. We get dozens us”. Returning to my prayer theme, we pray to the of different departments all saying they have a part of value that “people like us do this; this is what we do”. the solution. I am not holding my breath to see if they Normal economic activity is not about passing exams actually do change their behaviour and co-operate. and getting qualifications; it is not about even turning “Change the way we do things? No. We have said it is up to regular employment. We have to break into that important. That is enough.” I have a nagging suspicion idea, and we can only do it with a decent skills base in that is where we are, but we should at least start to our educators, no matter which sector they come think about co-operation in education and certainly from. We must invest here. within further education. How do we support one another? How do we have that coherent approach? It The special educational needs group pulls all these takes a lot of talking and a lot of communication to factors together. Unless somebody tries to remove you bring things together but unless we do, we will ultimately from that group, your problems are going to be intensified fail and we will go back to having little miracle solutions considerably. We must always try to intervene. We which will run into the ground and then get resurrected, were given a wonderful example of how the criminal with other miracle solutions working against them. justice system affects not only the criminals but the We really should start to talk to each other more and victims. That is something we often forget and I stop shouting. congratulate the noble Baroness for raising that issue. We have to start educating people to pick out the groups who find themselves gravitating towards this 3.25 pm situation. Middle-class dyslexics, for instance, get support Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, like and help and often end up going to university. If you others, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, know how to identify the support which is out there for initiating and introducing this debate. She did so and which we have provided over the years, you are with commitment and passion. As we have discovered fine. If you do not—I am talking about the social and as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, has just groups at the bottom—it all gets that little bit darker acknowledged, this has proved to be a multi-faceted and difficult, and it looked pretty difficult in the first topic and one which, in various ways, we have discussed place. Breaking that expectation of failure is probably elsewhere in recent days in our debates on apprenticeships, the most important bit. We are not going to achieve the Enterprise Bill and the Education and Adoption this unless we invest across the board in education. Bill. Further education provides a wonderful way in, because When the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, it does not have the “them and us” divide to anything was introducing the Motion she said that what she was like the extent of A-levels and university. It is just talking about was generally not technically sophisticated. more accessible. I agree with that. She instanced the concept of personal As many people have said, we should not be looking coaches; I am sure they are challenging and rewarding at this as an either/or situation. In a perfect world, jobs but not of themselves technically complex. She these elements should come together. We are a long instanced the importance of transition from schools way from perfection, but let us aim for that anyway. to work and the need to address this because of the Unless we get better education for teachers and lecturers poverty of hope, belief and aspiration. I found that I in further education—which means continuing training could not agree with much that the noble Lord, Lord after identifying the strategies to be put in place—we Blencathra, said. I agree that work is a route out of once again guarantee failure. The further education poverty and that there is a need to encourage employers sector was fine for my own disability group, dyslexia, to pay people properly, but I remind him that the but now there are major structural problems because economy was actually growing when Gordon Brown the group has not been identified. left office and it was austerity which choked off that growth. On tax credits, I am sure we will have an So we have all identified a series of common goals. interesting session on Monday. Unless we start to communicate more about what this My noble friend Lord Young of Norwood Green is pathway should be, we are always going to go back a strong advocate of apprenticeships—he spoke about and forth, blaming one another for the last failure. To the need for proper monitoring if these are going to be take my religious analogy slightly further, the idea that effective—and the importance of Sure Start. The noble academies will solve everything is a fallacy. They will Baroness, Lady Fookes, gave us her own experience of not because they are still schools, and they still have the arrangements for mentoring and coaching and teachers who have to be trained. You may get an how important that could be, and touched on the need improvement and the shock of change, but ultimately to raise the esteem for vocational education. I agree they are still just schools, and once they get all the with that. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, took us problems, they will have to deal with them. We are down the path of her initiation into growth accounting. going to have to work with them. They will still have to Despite all that and the march of technology and make sure that they are achieving not prestigious globalisation, we still have a skill shortage. The noble outcomes for people, but putting them into further Baroness, Lady Newlove, spoke movingly about how education to succeed. trauma in her own life was the spur to action—she got Can we do this? Can we recognise that we should up and did something—and the need to recognise that co-operate? We can. Oddly, we had a wonderful example everyone should be able to reach their potential. The from the Government of everybody at least acknowledging noble Lord, Lord Fink, spoke in an enlightened way the idea of communality and that various factions about the contribution he had made and seen of 843 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 844

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] time, despite the increase in the numbers, very few education, praising the teaching profession. I very apprenticeships are delivering up-to-date skills in the much support that. The noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, sectors which most need them. One in three providers spoke about the issue of older workers and the challenges visited by Ofsted was failing to deliver high-quality that they face. training. Sir Michael Wilshaw has called it, The Motion invites us to debate on, “little short of a disaster”, “the case for creating the right education and employment that only 5% of young people took up apprenticeships opportunities in the United Kingdom”, at the age of 16—a real failure to prepare pupils for a case which can hardly be denied. It is implicit in the the world of work. Motion, of course, that the opportunities at present The Ofsted report identifies that too many low-skilled are not as they should be and it begs the question of roles are being classed as apprenticeships and too few what constitutes the right opportunities. In a speech apprenticeships provide the advanced professional-level included in our pack, the Minister Nick Gibb mused skills needed in sectors with shortages. Sir Michael is about the purpose of education. His definition embraced quoted as saying: being the “engine of our economy” and the “foundation “We have won the argument over the value of apprenticeships. of our culture”, educating “the next generation” and, We have yet to make them a sought-after and valid alternative “instilling…aloveofknowledge”. career choice for hundreds of thousands of young people”. It was also, he said, about, His call for urgent, joined-up action by schools, employees and FE and skills providers must be part of the creation “the practical business of ensuring that young people receive the preparation they need to secure a good job and a fulfilling of the “right”education and employment opportunities. career”. Of course, that cannot happen without resource. The Government’s own adviser on skills has warned that I would not disagree with any of that. The speech might there is simply no money with which to move from low also have included that education can be the engine to to high quality. drive greater equality and social mobility. The whole journey of a child through education needs investment We acknowledge and welcome the fact that to ensure that all young people have the opportunities unemployment has fallen year on year, although the they need and for our society and economy to thrive. number of people working fewer hours than they want to has increased by almost 1 million since 2008. The Sadly, we know that vocational education has been overall unemployment rate, at 5.4%, is below the OECD neglected, with spending plans for post-16 education average but the youth unemployment rate, at 14.8%, is threatening many colleges. We have heard that from significantly above it. The previous coalition Government, several contributions today. That is showing: the CBI by scrapping the educational maintenance allowance already says that one in three of its member firms is and trebling tuition fees, made it financially more not confident that they will have all the skilled staff difficult for those from low-income backgrounds to they need for the future. engage in further education. Disbanding the Connexions If we are to create effective education opportunities, service and transferring responsibility for careers advice as my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie spelled has led to a deterioration of careers guidance just out in his excellent opening speech from these Benches when it was most needed. on Second Reading of the Education and Adoption We were expecting the Welfare Reform and Work Bill, we need to address the fundamental problem of Bill to include measures to provide Jobcentre Plus recruitment and retention of teachers. As he pointed adviser support in schools across England to supplement out, nearly 50,000 teachers left the profession in the careers advice and provide routes into work experience year to November 2014. and apprenticeships. However, all that seems to have I think we all accept that what makes a difference in been announced is a small-scale pilot project in the schools is much less to do with structures than with Midlands. Does the original ambition still pertain? good leadership and good leadership teams. There is Of course, we have the Earn or Learn task force— much else, but I recall attending a conference held by inaptly named, it is suggested, because why should an international educational foundation which was those be alternatives?—which is supposed to oversee unveiling its findings about the status of teachers in a the end of long-term youth unemployment and decades variety of countries around the world. There had been of so-called welfare dependency. We shall see, but a strong correlation between educational outcomes there is ministerial rhetoric about creating a “no excuses” and the esteem with which teachers were held—an culture, putting young people through their paces and intriguing concept, I suggest. references to boot camps. That kind of language blames We believe that more quality apprenticeships are young people who cannot find work for their own essential to the prospects of young people and the situation and assumes that they lack the necessary future success of our economy. Although we welcome willpower. the Government’s expressed desire to create 3 million We know that the Work and Pensions Select Committee apprenticeships by 2020 and to protect the brand, the has launched an inquiry into welfare-to-work provision track record has not been inspiring. The focus should to explore options for the future with a particular be on quality rather than quantity. focus on promoting a broader range of specialist As my noble friend Lord Young said, just today we provision, including through innovative and community- received the report of the Chief Inspector of Schools, level approaches. This is obviously to be welcomed. with a damning indictment of the Government’s record The DWP’s main contracts for welfare-to-work schemes— on apprenticeships. As has been suspected for some the Work Programme and Work Choice—are due to 845 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 846 expire in 2017, and it is understood that a retendering root causes of poverty. A number of noble Lords process will begin in the new year. Most recent statistics referred to this today. Having a parent in work, and show that of 1.76 million people referred to the Work leaving school with good qualifications are the most Programme since 2011, about 27% have found sustained important determinants of whether a young person work. That is to say, more than 70% did not. The total will do well in life. Education and employment, the price tag is £2.8 billion. Is that as good as we can do? key drivers of opportunity, are captured in our new I think that there is general agreement that moves “life chances” measures set out in the Welfare Reform to greater devolution away from the centre and passing and Work Bill. It is through these measures that the powers and responsibilities to local authorities—especially Government will be held to account to ensure that we combined authorities—is a movement whose time has do improve the life chances of all children. come. Local communities better understand their local This Government want every family and individual economies and skills needs. It is a pity that this issue in the country to benefit from the rewards of employment. has got mired with the attempted imposition of elected Noble Lords have all talked about the importance of mayors as part of the process. There is also concern that this. It is through work that parents provide security responsibility may pass without adequate resources. for their children and help them to get on in life. But The focus has been on the mainstream and at a the rewards go well beyond the financial; a steady job macro level, but we should recognise that there is a provides a sense of purpose and pride. Work is central multitude of circumstances across the country, where to creating self-worth, self-confidence and self-belief. there is a range of organisations with low-key but vital Conversely, worklessness—as we all know—is strongly projects helping to train and educate individuals, related to poor mental and physical health, poor child improving their chances of employment. I should like outcomes and poor educational attainment. That is to introduce to the House just one, Noah Enterprise—that why this Government have set the ambition of securing is, New Opportunities and Horizons—of which I have full employment in this Parliament. the privilege to be a trustee. It is a Luton-based charity working across Bedfordshire offering support and I know that a number of noble Lords do not like it, opportunity to people struggling against homelessness, but, as my noble friend Lord Blencathra said, we are addiction, exclusion and unemployment. It runs a starting from a good economic position. The employment welfare centre, and outreach programme and a furniture- rate is at a record high and there are more people in based social enterprise that combine to provide a work than ever before. There are 480,000 fewer children holistic approach to rehabilitation for those who are living in workless households than in 2010. The among the most vulnerable in our community. In employment rate of young people who have left full-time helping people to recover their lives, they are encouraged education is continuing to rise. Since 2010, nearly to enrol in the academy, where they can engage in two-thirds of the rise in employment has been in digital learning, learn English as a second language higher-skilled occupations, which generally command and be prepared for employment. That is combined a higher wage. My noble friend Lady Jenkin will be with volunteering in the social enterprise, where they pleased to know that there are more older people in can learn skills, including furniture restoration, employment than ever before. But we know that we portable appliance testing, warehousing, white goods have more to do, which is why we are committed to refurbishment, driver’s assistant duties, and others. transforming our welfare system, improving our education system and growing our economy. In those ventures, we look to generate income to contribute to supporting the running of the welfare Central to our welfare reforms, as we have heard services. They are, especially, a place where vulnerable today, is universal credit, which radically simplifies people on the margins of society can find a rekindling our overly complex system: but it is much more than a of self-esteem, respect and confidence, a means whereby technical exercise. Universal credit will make sure that they can find a framework that helps them to live their work always pays. The structure supports parents to lives constructively and with satisfaction—and, for the make joint decisions about how to balance work and first time in many years, the prospect of a job. For raise their children, while, through the claimant them at this time, that is the right education and commitment, every individual has a clear understanding employment opportunity. of what is expected of them in finding work. As a result of universal credit, up to 300,000 more people 3.39 pm are likely to be in work due to its more effective Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): My Lords, I work incentives, increased simplicity and increased would first like to congratulate my noble friend Lady conditionality. As my noble friend Lord Blencathra Stedman-Scott on securing today’s debate and thank said, early results show that it is working. Compared all noble Lords who have contributed. We have certainly to JSA claimants, universal credit claimants do more had many impressive contributions today; I fear that to look for work, enter work more quickly and earn mine might seem inadequate by comparison, but I will more money.I know that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie do my best. of Luton, asked me about a specific DWP pilot project: I will have to write to him with details of that. We have covered a wide range of issues that are central to this Government’s ambition to extend As a number of noble Lords said, we know that opportunity and transform lives. Let me be clear: youth unemployment can have significant negative whoever you are, wherever you live, whatever your impacts on young people’s life chances, which is why background, this Government’s aim is to help you to we are committed to eradicating it. My noble friend fulfil your potential in life. The core of our approach Lady Stedman-Scott and the noble Lord, Lord to improving life chances is to focus on tackling the Addington, laid out some of the issues that young 847 Education and Employment[LORDS] Education and Employment 848

[BARONESS EVANS OF BOWES PARK] citizens who contribute greatly to the communities in people face. An important part of achieving this goal is which they live. That is why we want schools not just our commitment to creating 3 million new apprenticeships to provide a high-quality education but to help their in England in this Parliament. students develop qualities such as confidence, resilience Apprenticeships offer young people a route into the and motivation. These character traits not only support world of work, valuable experience and vital skills. academic attainment but are highly valued by employers. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, said The best schools—such as those of Ark, which my that we were not providing enough apprenticeships, noble friend Lord Fink is involved in, and those of my but in fact, in 2013-14, 240,000 workplaces had apprentices. noble friend Lord Harris, who we heard from earlier In 2015-16, we will be spending £1.5 billion in total. this week—do this through daily interaction with teachers The noble Lord, Lord Young, and my noble friend and staff, through the curriculum, and through Lady Fookes mentioned the recent Ofsted report. Of encouraging activities such as playing team sports, course we will be reflecting on the findings of that, but volunteering, learning an instrument or debating. But we are absolutely clear that we need good-quality in order to encourage this further we are investing apprenticeships. The Enterprise Bill, for instance, will £5 million in character education and have already be introducing a protection of the term “apprenticeship” awarded grants to support 14 projects for schools, to stop it being misused. We will certainly ensure that particularly those in the most deprived areas. there is rigorous testing and grading at the end of We are also ensuring that schools have the resources apprenticeships. This is absolutely key: there is no they need to close the attainment gap between the point in young people taking apprenticeships that are poorest students and their peers through the pupil not of sufficiently good quality, and the Government premium. During the last Parliament we invested £6 billion are committed to ensuring that they are. We also have of additional funding in schools in England through in place degree apprenticeships in the nuclear industry, the premium and are providing an additional £2.5 billion engineering, chartered surveying and the automotive this year. Schools such as Charter Academy in Portsmouth industry, to name but a few. Other employers are demonstrate the impact that can be achieved. In 2014, exploring ways to develop their own apprenticeship 82% of disadvantaged pupils achieved five or more programmes. good GCSEs including English and maths—double The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford, the the national average for pupil premium pupils and noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, and my noble 18 percentage points higher than the national average friend Lady Fookes talked about the importance of for non-disadvantaged pupils. further education and adult skills training. The Our reforms also include a rigorous new curriculum, Government take this very seriously. In relation to world-class exams and a new schools accountability funding, we have the upcoming spending review, so I system which rewards schools that push children to cannot say much more about that, but I reassure noble achieve their best. Now 82% of all schools in England Lords that between August 2011 and February 2015, are good or outstanding—the highest proportion since nearly 600,000 jobseekers started adult skills training. Ofsted began inspecting schools—and there are over 1 Furthermore, key to tackling youth unemployment million more pupils in England in good or outstanding is early intervention to ensure that young people get schools than in 2010. We will not hesitate to intervene the help they need before they leave school, so that where schools are failing or “coasting”. As the Prime they can make the transition between school and Minister has said, we will have zero tolerance of the further learning or employment. That is why we are failing schools that still exist, so every inadequate putting Jobcentre Plus advisers into schools around school will be turned into an academy with new leadership. England. Working with 14 to 17 year-olds, these advisers Free schools are providing parents with more choice— will complement the work of careers advisers to ensure and at a cheaper price, as my noble friend Lord Fink that young people get the advice they need on local correctly said—and offering new opportunities for training and employment opportunities. young people where there is local demand for new The Government are also supporting young provision. Since 2010, over 300 new free schools have unemployed people through work experience and opened, providing over 150,000 new places for children. traineeship programmes so they can get that vital The free schools programme is encouraging school experience of the workplace to help them find sustained partnerships and allowing excellent practice to spread. jobs. An evaluation in 2012 found that work experience For instance, Bury St Edmunds Technical Academy is participants were around 16% more likely to be off being set up by an academy trust that already runs benefits than non-participants after 21 weeks. This is a good and outstanding schools. It will be a 13 to similar success to the Future Jobs Fund but at 1/20th of 19 school focusing on STEM subjects through both the cost. academic and technical routes. Its partnerships with As a number of contributors to the debate today local employers will mean that students will be able to said, we know that attainment at school is the biggest access work-based projects and work experience in determinant of our young people making a successful addition to their studies. Free schools are more likely transition to adult life and future success in the labour to be rated outstanding by Ofsted than other state market. As my noble friend Lord Fink so eloquently schools, and almost half are in the most deprived highlighted, a good education unlocks potential and areas of the country. lays the foundations for future success and employment The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, prospects. Those who have benefited from a good and my noble friend Lady Fookes talked about careers education are more productive, healthier and happier advice. We absolutely agree that high-quality careers 849 Education and Employment[22 OCTOBER 2015] Education and Employment 850 guidance is vital if young people are to make good cause a substantial and varying amount of distress for decisions about future learning and careers, and it is children. All schools should create a caring and supportive particularly important for pupils from disadvantaged environment and earlier this year the Government backgrounds who may not get that advice at home. We brought together a group of experts to advise on how know that some schools are doing excellent work and to provide good school-based counselling services. that their pupils are accessing the right support, but in We are providing nearly £5 million of funding this too many cases careers advice has long been inadequate. year to support 17 projects delivering a wide range of Since September 2012 we have devolved responsibility support for children and young people with mental for careers advice to schools in England. They will health issues, including supporting Dove, an organisation now be held to account for the destination of their that provides mental health support for bereaved pupils, whether it is an apprenticeship, a job, further children. education or university. The Government have also set The Government recognise the variety of barriers up the Careers & Enterprise Company to transform the that many people, including victims of crime, face and provision of careers education and advice for young we agree that a holistic approach is required. That is people. Last month it launched its Enterprise Adviser why, for instance, the Government are committed to network programme to link employees in firms of all expanding the Troubled Families programme and why sizes to schools through a network of enterprise advisers the DWP and DCLG are looking at what more they drawn from business volunteers. As my noble friend can do with local authorities to break down barriers. Lady Stedman-Scott mentioned, the Leeds City Region Victims of crime will be delighted that they have such was part of the Enterprise Adviser pilot, and its a strong voice within government also fighting their programme began in November 2014. Since then over cause. Finally, on Think Forward, raised by my noble 100 business leaders and 60 schools from across the friends Lady Stedman-Scott and Lady Fookes, the city region have joined their network, which has resulted Minister for Children and Families will be delighted to in over 3,500 young people accessing new employer-led meet my noble friends to discuss the programme and activities and over 50 action plans created in schools hear more about the benefits that they outlined. to develop employability skills. In conclusion, high levels of employment and We also want to unlock the potential of all young educational excellence drive opportunity and are at people who have the ability to succeed at university. the heart of this Government’s social justice vision. It The Prime Minister has committed to doubling the is through employment that parents provide for their proportion of people from disadvantaged backgrounds families and through education that children, in turn, entering higher education by the end of this Parliament fulfil their own potential. It is by tackling worklessness from 2009 levels and to increasing the number of BME and delivering excellence for all our young people that students going to university by 20% by 2020. We we will break the cycles of disadvantage—and this recognise that graduates have a vital part to play in Government will focus relentlessly on both. building a highly skilled workforce through their ability to challenge assumptions, energise and innovate. The 3.55 pm best way to produce more employable graduates is for employers, either individually or jointly, to work directly Baroness Stedman-Scott: My Lords, I thank everybody with universities and colleges. They can and should help who has taken part in this debate. I almost feel like we with course design and delivery, provide work placements are just getting going. I am sure, though, that the and, where appropriate, offer sponsorship for students. Companion does not allow me to apply for an extension My noble friend Lady Jenkin of Kennington was to the debate. The debate has been very lively—livelier absolutely right to mention that it is not just young in some parts than others—but it keeps us on our toes. people who need the right opportunities. The structure This is a subject beyond political banter and I hope our of our society is changing and life expectancy is increasing hearts beat in concert to try to do something about it. as people live longer and healthier lives. Despite the I have a few closing remarks. I think it is work in increase in the employment rate of older people, the progress on apprenticeships. We have more homework problem of people leaving the labour market too early to do and we had better get on and do it. As the noble remains a problem. The Government have implemented Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, we have got over to a number of initiatives to help people to live fuller people the value of apprenticeships, and we need to working lives. We have appointed a Business Champion make sure that those apprenticeships are valuable to for Older Workers, extended the right to request flexible the people who will undertake them. working, and introduced Carers in Employment pilots There is nothing more to say on careers advice and in nine local authorities to explore ways for carers to guidance, but we are taking too long to get this right balance work with their caring responsibilities. so we must re-treble our efforts and make sure that In March 2015, in her previous role as Business young people get the best labour market careers advice Champion for Older Workers, my noble friend Lady and employment support to ensure they can fulfil their Altmann published the report A New Vision for Older potential. Workers: Retain, Retrain, Recruit. It makes a number The points about the rebalancing of higher and of recommendations designed to challenge outdated vocational education were well made by everybody, stereotypes of older workers. The Government will and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, for her respond to the report’s recommendations shortly. contribution. Her knowledge and experience is well I now turn to the issues raised by my noble friend respected and there is much more that we will be doing. Lady Newlove, who spoke so movingly earlier. The I have got the message on early intervention and Government recognise that difficult circumstances can where it starts. I really have got that, thank you. 851 Education and Employment[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 852

[BARONESS STEDMAN-SCOTT] Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab): My Lords, I welcome I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, for drawing at last the opportunity to debate the Chilcot inquiry. I our attention to older workers. They have a great have been very critical of the scandalous delays in contribution to make. We have got to keep them in the publication. It may well be that the members of the workforce and they act as good role models to younger committee will, after all, turn out to be knights in employees and sometimes they become their “parent” shining armour and produce an authoritative report in a roundabout way. I completely agree that it is that completely justifies its delays—in which case, I competence rather than age and I hope that this House would withdraw my criticism. This committee was set at some time in the future will remember that, too. up in June 2009, but it is still not able to give us a firm On education, I became a governor of an academy date for publication. Sir John recently promised to so that I really understood them and I hoped I could make write to the Prime Minister in November with a timetable a contribution. Teachers are to be complimented. but, crucially, will not give a date for publication. They do great jobs. Of course, like in every workforce, The proposed legal action of some of the families of they could do better in some respects but they are terrific. the 179 soldiers killed may have moved him. They are I concur that the noble Lords, Lord Fink and Lord Harris, the ones most directly concerned in the establishment and others have made a great investment in academies of the truth as to why we went to war. They have been and our country will only be the richer for that. badly let down: justice delayed is justice denied. The noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, has paid a high As an ex-Law Officer, I am concerned with upholding price, but her girls are a credit to her. She gets all the the rule of law in all its manifestations. A public inquiry grief—believe you me—because they are teenagers but is set up where there is widespread public concern on they are doing well. I think the next debate should be an issue of great importance. Although the cynical the rehabilitation of victims. We must do that. may portray it as kicking something into the long I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, who has grass, we have no means other than that: to identify changed her place in the Chamber, that horticulture distinguished persons, be they lawyers or others, to jobs are valuable. They need doing and there are a lot identify the facts, deliver an authoritative judgment of people—one in this Chamber in particular—who and publish their conclusions in good time for lessons spend a lot of time in horticultural establishments to be learned. Respect for good governance is undermined purchasing things for their garden. Horticulture is a if reports do not see the light of day before issues great contributor to the economy. become dimmer and dimmer in public memory. Failure Noble Lords have seen the value of coaches first to publish reports in a timely way is indeed kicking it hand. If any noble Lord wants to go and see a coach, into the long grass. see me and I will fix it up. There was nothing half-baked The Franks committee into the Falklands War took about the contribution, I must say. about six months. Prime Minister Brown accepted the The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, mentioned the Cabinet Secretary’s recommendation to accept it as a importance of the economy. If the economy is strong model, and probably its terms of reference, the choice then employers will create jobs. It is a no-brainer. Of of members and perhaps also the mistaken advice to course, there is also the importance of the family in choose a non-statutory inquiry without the controls of that particular journey. the Inquiries Act 2005. I believe that the committee’s I am really grateful for the offer of a meeting. Let remit into an eight-year war might have been more me know when it is—if it is tomorrow, I will be there. I tightly drawn. In the view of the noble Lord, Lord will go away now and prepare for that. Butler, the terms of reference are so wide as to be I received a phone call at 6.50 am today from my almost infinite. niece’s six-year old son, who was crying on the telephone. He has a massive eye infection, but he was not crying Sir John has said that he was not given the opportunity at the thought of going to the doctor but because he to discuss the scope of the inquiry. The Cabinet Office could not go to school and the people in his class was in such a hurry that he was given only 10 minutes might learn something that he missed and he might to decide whether to accept the chair or not. feel at some disadvantage. I hope that we may create I trust that the inquiry has concentrated on two that desire to learn in our education and employment fundamental issues, rather than chase every hare. First, system. what was the cause of the war? Did the Government I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. believe the claims about Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction or was the aim regime change, which Motion agreed. has no basis whatsoever in international law? Was this the real motivation? Secondly, when was the decision Chilcot Inquiry taken to go to war? Was it at Crawford or Camp Question for Short Debate David, in April 2002, in discussions between Prime 4pm Minister Blair and President Bush? Even the British ambassador was excluded from those discussions and Asked by Lord Morris of Aberavon apparently no note was taken. If the decision was To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their taken then, any subsequent discussions at the United assessment of the case for discharging the Chairman Nations would have been a charade. It might explain and members of the Chilcot Inquiry, and inviting why, blaming the apparent unwillingness of the French, the Cabinet Secretary to set out a mechanism for an no further effort was made to get an agreed political interim report to be produced on the basis of the solution at the Security Council. In my memoirs I say evidence gathered. that the Chilcot Inquiry may tell us. 853 Chilcot Inquiry[22 OCTOBER 2015] Chilcot Inquiry 854

The saddest feature of the inquiry process was around the House of Lords. He hopes to finish his the strenuous efforts of the Cabinet Office to block the biography of the Fab Four by 2028—by which time he committee from having access to whole swathes of will have spent almost a quarter of a century on it. vital documentation, including notes from Blair to Next week, the great Lyndon Baines Johnson historian, Bush. Eventually, the Cabinet Office’s arguments could Robert Caro, will be here. His first volume on Johnson not be sustained and the committee deserves our was published in 1982 and he still has not finished. congratulations on winning this argument. However, Proper history—proper accounts of history—take a the agreed redactions and the agreement to publish long time. just some of the documents will need very close examination. Sir John is not clear as to how much time Sir John Chilcot has been asked to conduct a proper was lost in the argument. At one stage the evidence inquiry into one of the most controversial and complex was 13 months, but it could have been up to two years. events of modern times. It is not just, or even at all, a The Minister’s comments on these two aspects will be trial of Tony Blair. It is about, of course, how and why of great interest. we went in, but also everything between 2001 and 2009. We may reflect on whether the terms of reference The lost time is not the most glorious period in the were correct, but, given the terms of reference, we have history of the Cabinet Office. I presume that the to understand that proper history and proper accounts committee has not considered the memorandum, disclosed of history take time. last weekend, from Secretary Powell to President Bush. Sir John has stated that he has seen 30 minutes from Daniel Kahneman, the Nobel prize-winning social Blair to Bush and records of conversations between psychologist, says that it is a special cognitive illusion Powell and Jack Straw. However, he did not have that, this time, things will be different and that our access to the archives of foreign Governments. Assuming book will be quicker to write than everyone else’s. The the validity of the memo, will the committee need to Hillsborough inquiry, on a single afternoon, took reflect on it and will it affect its conclusions and the from 2009 to 2012 to publish. The Saville inquiry took date of publication? Regrettably, there was no counsel 11 years for the events of a single day. I calculate that to the inquiry, which can do the spade work, assemble if Sir John Chilcot proceeded at the same pace as the the evidence and save a great deal of time. Saville inquiry, his inquiry should take 32,000 years—he The next cause of delay is the doctrine of is actually going quite quickly. Maxwellisation—briefly, in common law, fairness to I am a journalist, and there is a trade-off between all concerned. The criticised should have the opportunity depth and speed, completeness and deadline. It is one to comment before publication. The Times has published of my central jobs to judge that correctly, so I wish to some very important letters on Maxwellisation—for make two points. First, if Sir John is choosing depth example, from Sir Robert Francis and Sir Stanley over deadline, I believe that he is making the correct Burnton. In my view, the process of Maxwellisation, choice. If the House is anxious for an interim report much criticised by a Select Committee of this House on the Iraq war, I can give it one: it did not go as well on which I had the honour of serving, is open to as we had hoped. But he is supposed to try to do criticism for statutory inquiries. This doctrine and the better. That is the only point of having the inquiry—we fear of judicial review have been elevated to a far have already had so many books, articles, speeches higher level than previously envisaged. We do not and other inquiries. We have asked Sir John Chilcot to know how much time has been lost, how many witnesses produce an inquiry which provides us with depth and were involved, and what has been deemed a reasonable authority, and such things take time. time for replies. In his evidence, Sir John kept his cards very close to his chest. Secondly, even if Sir John had made the wrong The Prime Minister, who complained so much when trade-off, the trade-off is his to make: it is an independent the inquiry was set up about its estimated time of one inquiry. Hurrying him is an infringement of his year, has since been wringing his hands as he says the independence, and it is being done basically only as an inquiry is independent. It may now be counterproductive insurance against him reaching inconvenient conclusions. to dispense with the committee’s services, although I A lot of my colleagues in the press believe that if they have been calling since 1 July—and indeed earlier—for can discredit him in advance it will be a useful insurance the Cabinet Secretary to assess the evidence and produce policy in case he does not agree with what they already an interim report for Parliament to consider what think about the Iraq war. further action could be taken. If this had been a I supported the Iraq war, and that is why I want as statutory inquiry, Section 14 of the Inquiries Act 2005 much as anyone to hear what was right and what went would have allowed the Minister, with notice, to pull wrong. It is extremely important to me to learn those the plug and bring the inquiry to an end. Every public lessons. But I do not want to learn the lessons that I inquiry, one way or another, is subject to the will of already know from all the things that have been published; Parliament. In this instance, I have a feeling that we I want to learn the lessons from the deep inquiry that went down the wrong way in not having a statutory we have been engaged in. Of course we are all impatient inquiry with the controls of such an inquiry. for the outcome of anything we have invested time and energy in and wish to hear the results of, but we need 4.09 pm to behave less like children in a car saying, “Are we Lord Finkelstein (Con): My Lords, I thank the nearly there yet?” and more like people who have noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, for his speech; asked for a big inquiry to tell us some very important it was a privilege to listen to it. Earlier this month, I things—which we are all going to hear, as we all showed the great Beatles historian, Mark Lewisohn, realise, soon enough. 855 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 856

4.13 pm during the reconstruction. We now find that very little of that was ever openly discussed in Parliament or Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD): My Lords, I even in the US Congress. agree with almost everything that the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, said. He is absolutely right that I will take a moment to look at what was discussed getting the truth about this very complex and troubling in the US Congress. In September 2002, still well story is more important than having a particular deadline before the invasion, Congressmen asked Mr Powell in mind. An attempt to have an interim report would and—perhaps more significantly—the Secretary of be very dangerous; it would lead to Maxwellisation Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, where the money was and counter-Maxwellisation in an endless effort to going to come from for the reconstruction of Iraq. find out the truth. This reconstruction would be crucial to the prospects for peace in the Middle East and the surrounding area. One difficulty of the whole report is that we were Donald Rumsfeld answered that he did not know. He still getting substantial chunks of serious evidence as was asked if it was suggested that the money should late as last weekend. The discovery of the Powell come from the United States. The question was: “Will memorandum that went to the President of the United it be dollars for the reconstruction?”. His brutal reply States, which explicitly set out in terms that the Prime was: “I do not think it will be dollars and I do not Minister of the United Kingdom was willing to consider think it is likely to involve us”. In other words, he military action, is of the first importance, not just because buried the issue of expenditure on reconstruction without of the issue itself—many of us would disagree about the matter being discussed by Congress, which was military action; others would support it—but on an crucially involved in giving support for any budgetary another issue that is equally important. It was March demand of that kind. 2002 when the Powell memorandum was sent to the President, shortly before the summit meeting that I will not go on—but, before I touch briefly on a took place at the ranch of the President in Crawford, couple of other matters, I will say that the Chilcot Texas, in March 2002. commission was confronted with an awful problem. One of the crucial aspects of this was illuminated The commission consists of five privy counsellors, by the fact that, in February 2003, I asked the then selected not only for their long experience in international Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, affairs but also, bluntly, for their outstanding reputation whether there was any prospect of military action. I as people of integrity. I suspect that the issue of integrity repeat the date: March 2003. The noble Baroness said: was central for Sir John Chilcot and, as the noble “I repeat that there is no prospect of military action at Lord, Lord Finkelstein, implied, he is determined to the present time”. The statement about Mr Blair’s find out the truth, however difficult that may be. We view, dated March 2002, and the question that I asked then roll on to the long, terrible story about the aftermath, the Leader of the House in February 2003, raise key in which it is increasingly clear that the British Government constitutional questions. The immediate question which were hardly involved at all and that the issue was needs to be pursued by the Chilcot commission is treated as a unilateral issue by the then Government of whether the British Cabinet knew anything about the the United States. proceedings and negotiations between the Prime Minister I conclude by saying that we need desperately to and the President of the United States. have the truest possible account of this, which I think Mr Blair was a great believer in presidential leadership. is the second-gravest mistake ever made in the history One of his views was that something called “sofa of the United Kingdom’s foreign policy after the end diplomacy” was central to getting serious outcomes of the Second World War. It is on rather the same discussed and agreed. The difficulty with sofa government scale as the effects of Suez. Today, when we look at is that it excludes something which is critical to our what has been tragically not only an attempt to try to way of doing politics, in which collective decisions are invade Iraq but, perhaps more crucially, an attempt to made by the Cabinet of the United Kingdom, not just see the Middle East fade away into a situation where by the Prime Minister. That has major implications. there is almost no legally available support, let us not Presidential decisions—at least in theory—can be made forget that an invasion based on the argument that you by the President on his own. It is up to him whether he need regime change has no place in international law consults advisers or not. That is not the situation in and no place in the United Nations. the United Kingdom, and many of us would not wish to see it become the situation. The concept of Last of all, and perhaps most important, there is Cabinet responsibility is deeply bound up with that of the straightforward fact that when we went along with parliamentary responsibility. the proposals for the aftermath, one issue that was never discussed with us was whether the Baathists What was the Chilcot commission asked to do? It should be completely expelled at the level of the has been harshly criticised on grounds it could not police, the level of the army and the level of the civil have avoided. First, as the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, service from a country which was then left in a desperate correctly said, it was given an almost impossible mandate vacuum from which it has not to this day recovered. of exploring the period from 2001 all the way through With peace in the Middle East very much in doubt to 2009: eight years of endless negotiation and discussion. today and very much sweeping towards a kind of The report is intended to cover not just the run-up to nihilism, having a serious look at the truth of this the war and the invasion of Iraq but also the issues of report is probably the most important thing we can what the aftermath should be, what the exit strategy do to avoid anything like that happening in the was and what steps should be taken to protect Iraq future. 857 Chilcot Inquiry[22 OCTOBER 2015] Chilcot Inquiry 858

4.21 pm Thirdly, as has already been mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, the amount of Lord Luce (CB): My Lords, I am delighted to documentation the committee has had to study has follow the noble Baroness. Just over 45 years ago, evidently been absolutely massive. There are also questions during the 1970 election, I opposed her and lost but of declassification and of the disclosure of exchanges I could not have asked to lose to a better person. I between Bush and Blair—all that has to be sorted out congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, and looked at. There were major delays, but I am told on this timely and healthy debate but I hope that the that 150,000 documents had to be studied and one House will allow me to say a word about Lord Howe should not underestimate the time it takes to work of Aberavon whose funeral was held this morning. As through all that. However, when the report comes, it his former Parliamentary Private Secretary and a Minister should indicate who is responsible for the delays. of State at the Foreign Office, I had many conversations Fourthly, there is the matter of Maxwellisation. with him about inquiries. We both gave evidence to the There are arguments for and against Maxwellisation, Scott inquiry, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord but that is not my point. Many people have suggested Scott, is here today. Had Lord Howe been alive and that that was the main cause of delay, but the well, he would have undoubtedly wished to speak in Maxwellisation procedures did not start until the end this debate. Indeed, he chaired the Ely Hospital inquiry of last year; I understand that they are now completed. in Cardiff in 1969 when he had already taken Silk. They may have prolonged the process a little, of course, We are all familiar with Lord Howe’s distinguished but I do not believe they were the main reason for career but, in my view, he was one of the most civilised, delay. The big problem is the scale and complexity of thoughtful and intelligent of post-war politicians, and the inquiry. a great parliamentarian. In a week when we are marking I agree with all those who suggest that it is not the state visit of President Xi, I should say that one of sensible to have an interim report. It is too late for that, Lord Howe’s greatest achievements was negotiating in any event, and all stages of the inquiry are interrelated. the future of Hong Kong. It is worth saying that when It is also essential for Sir John to go on working to he was negotiating with Deng Xiaoping in Beijing in retain the confidence of the public and Parliament in 1983, I was on duty on a Saturday as a Minister in the what he is doing. What are the main causes of delay? It Foreign Office when the British ambassador reported is perfectly reasonable for him to take opportunities to to say that Deng Xiaoping had disclosed that he trusted explain to the public the reasons for these frustrating Geoffrey Howe. He authorised talks to go ahead and delays, in order to retain the confidence of Parliament. to conclude with the “one country, two systems”position. Once the report is published, Parliament can debate That was an act of great statesmanship. the lessons to be learnt over Iraq and the lessons to be It is the word “trust” on which I want to dwell learnt about the nature and type of inquiries we hold because it is relevant to this debate. Clearly, it is in this country. essential that there is trust and confidence in the Chilcot inquiry and it has been continually under 4.27 pm challenge. Like everyone else, I share the frustration Lord Parekh (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble about delays. But, as a former Civil Service Minister, I and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, for have to say that I suspect the most frustrated people of securing this debate. As he rightly pointed out, no all are Sir John Chilcot and the other three distinguished other inquiry in our public life has taken so long. It members of the committee. Sir John is known for his was announced in June 2009 and it is now 2015. I have fairness, impartiality and sense of duty, and all the two questions to ask. What explains the delay? Was members of the committee are known for their integrity that delay justified? and abilities. It seems to me that five factors are responsible for Sir John has already made it clear that he never the delay in submitting the report. The first is that it expected or wanted this inquiry to last this long. So was not set up under the Inquiries Act 2005, and why has it happened? First, I agree with the noble therefore the committee had to make up its own rules Baroness, Lady Williams, that unlike the Butler and as it went along—for example, the rules governing the Hutton inquiries—I am delighted that the noble Lord, publication of documents within less than 30 years. Lord Butler, will speak shortly—the terms of reference The second difficulty was that, as the noble Baroness, of which were tightly drawn, the scope and terms of Lady Williams, pointed out, its remit was extremely reference of this inquiry were immensely broad. It has wide—not just the lead-up to the war in Iraq but what lasted over eight years of study. The run-up to the happened afterwards and what we should have done. conflict, the period of the conflict and the post-conflict The third factor that explains the delay was the period were all included in the terms of reference. dispute over access to various documents. For example, Secondly, I recall that, after the inquiry was announced it took nearly a year to obtain the Blair-Bush by the then Prime Minister in 2009, the Select Committee correspondence and the notes Mr Blair is supposed to on Public Administration called for transparent and have left with Mr Bush, to read them and to decide open procedures, rather than having evidence given in whether to include them in the report. private. I gave evidence to the Franks committee in The fourth factor is Maxwellisation, and the fifth, private and that has its merits. However, in an atmosphere which I shall concentrate on, is the chairman’s determined of little trust in Governments, and so on, it is right to attempt to be absolutely fair and to produce as accurate hold proceedings in the open—but surely they are an account of events as possible. As the noble Lord, bound to take longer. Lord Finkelstein, said, every relevant fact had to be 859 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 860

[LORD PAREKH] 4.32 pm gathered, every “i” dotted and every “t” crossed. That Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD): My Lords, I is where my difficulty begins. I want to ask whether too thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, these five reasons for delay were all equally justified. It for initiating the debate. It is important for us to is obviously true that no inquiry can be exhaustive. If I realise that this inquiry is crucial to the family and were to write the history of the House of Lords, or of friends of those who lost their lives in Iraq, who must Parliament, it would not be definitive, for obvious feel very badly treated in this sorry affair. To them it reasons. Different facts and angles emerge, and you must feel that the decision to lay down the lives of can look at the whole thing in many different ways. their loved ones must have been taken in weeks or In the case of this inquiry, we have already been perhaps months, yet the analysis of why those decisions told by Sir John Chilcot that transcripts of discussions were taken—the basis of their understanding why it and dialogues with foreign government officials were appears that this was embarked on almost with such not properly written down or will not be circulated, so carelessness—is still incomplete 12 years after the even this report will not be entirely accurate or commencement of that war. comprehensive. Simply no report can be, because new I start by making it clear that I have the greatest facts constantly keep emerging. If you aim to write a respect for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris definitive and comprehensive account on an event as of Aberavon, but I do not agree with discharging the momentous as this, you will have to wait until the end inquiry at this point. It would be invidious because the of eternity. The chairman was wrong to aim to produce report would be published incomplete—we all want a that kind of report. full and thorough account of what happened. Also, in Maxwellisation is another factor. I am not entirely any event, it would not come out very shortly because sure that we should have gone along that road. security clearances would have to be obtained before Maxwellisation emerged in a certain context and it publication. was justified, but should it be applied to every situation? Before I go any further in my analysis of the failings It may lead to counter-Maxwellisation: someone might of the inquiry, I should say that we have been talking stand up and say, “Look, he is involved in a public about what led to the Iraq war. I bring to the House inquiry; he should be able to defend himself against one other fact that my noble friend Lady Williams, in every criticism”. The public inquiry body would then her extraordinary recall of how hard the Liberal say, “Look, we want to be able to answer your criticism”, Democrats worked at the time to influence the outcome and there is no end to the process. of that decision, pointed out to me: that Liberal Democrat spokespeople in both Houses repeatedly Also, a report such as this, which tries to cover pressed for UNMOVIC—the team of UN inspectors—to every aspect, ends up saying that someone is responsible be given full authority by the UN to inspect Iraq for for this and someone else for that, and there is no any evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Focusing focus of responsibility—no single agent is responsible on getting rid of such weapons would have been more for the war in Iraq. My feeling is that the inquiry effective and cost far less in lives and destruction than needed to be limited in its remit from the beginning, an invasion. but that is neither here nor there. The British Government’s own dossier, published If one looks at what is happening now, there are on 24 September 2002, stated that the inspectors had two things to bear in mind. First, an inquiry of this achieved a great deal in Iraq. The leader of the Iraq kind is supposed to attain certain objectives, such as inspectors, Hans Blix, pleaded for more time to complete closure for the families and the country; to get at the the inspection of all the suspect sites, but the US truth of the matter; to suggest ways to restore trust in Government were not in any mood to concede this. So politics; and, as the terms of reference set out—in a we lost an opportunity at that point, and it was clear rather strange form of English—to, that that particular US Government did not really “strengthen the health of our democracy … and our military”. want evidence or inspection; they just wanted to proceed to war—and it might now appear that that is what If these are the objectives, the question is: how will they had been promised by their ally, the United they be realised? The longer the delay in the report’s Kingdom. publication, the greater the chance that public trust in Coming back to the Chilcot inquiry, it is worth our system will be weakened, or that closure for the noting that Sir John Chilcot has announced that he war, the families and the country will not be obtained. will write to the Prime Minister on 3 November with In my view, these objectives require that the report the timeline. I do not know to what extent the fact that should have been published much earlier, or at least the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, had tabled that it now needs to be published as soon as possible. his Question to be debated today led to Sir John Having said that, I want to make it absolutely clear deciding to do that. I suspect that the Question was on that this does not imply that there is any reason at this the Order Paper before the decision was taken to set a stage for discharging the chairman or the members of date to publish the timeline. the committee. They have done a most honourable In this sorry affair there have been big issues of job. As I pointed out, where they have faltered, they judgment. The inquiry was announced on 15 June 2009. have done so with good intentions and a sense of In this House on that day, as is recorded in the Hansard honour. We need to learn lessons from the inquiry report, I said that given the very wide scope of the itself and ensure that it is allowed to publish its report inquiry it should be in two parts—the first looking at as early as we would like it to be. the events that led up to the war, and the second 861 Chilcot Inquiry[22 OCTOBER 2015] Chilcot Inquiry 862 looking at the conduct of the war. The response of the 4.40 pm then Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, was that: Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB): My Lords, I start “It is up to the committee how it structures its work”.—[Official by following the noble Lord, Lord Luce, in making a Report, 15/6/09; col. 866.] brief reference to Lord Howe, whose funeral was today. Three days later, the Public Administration Committee I would have liked to attend that funeral, but I decided also recommended the same thing—a two-part inquiry not to because I felt that I should take part in this into the decision to go to war, and another on the debate. However, seeing the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, conduct of the war. The Labour Government again in his place, who attended the funeral, I perhaps made stated that it was up to the inquiry to decide what it the wrong choice, but I do not think I could have been wanted to do. So the question has to arise: given how sure of doing it. I had the privilege of knowing Lord very wide the scope was—everybody who has spoken Howe well from 1979, when he became Chancellor of has commented on that aspect—and that that was the Exchequer. He was a major political figure and a known from the outset, why did the inquiry decide to great public servant. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, do its work as a single comprehensive exercise? Ultimately, and his family have been very much in my thoughts today. that is a matter of judgment. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, When Sir John gave evidence to the Foreign Affairs for giving us the opportunity to have this debate. For Committee in the other place on 4 February 2015, he the most part it will have given deserved comfort to Sir admitted that he was not consulted on the scope of the John Chilcot and his team because very many supportive inquiry; the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, said things have been said. I think that the noble and that in his opening remarks. In other words, Sir John learned Lord, Lord Morris, made it clear in his remarks was given the absolute thinnest of job descriptions: that his suggestion that the committee should now be perhaps an analogy would be the kind of initial job discharged was really a vehicle for the debate rather advert that we see in newspapers. Rather than asking than a suggestion that he wanted the Government to for a detailed job description with a detailed specification, take seriously. Many speakers have referred to the and arguing the case for a different kind of inquiry or sense of frustration, which I am sure is shared by Sir a different timeline—or different staff, more resources John Chilcot and the members of the inquiry itself, or whatever—he accepted the job in 10 minutes flat; that it has taken so long. But although the precise frankly, I felt embarrassed reading that part of his evidence. timing of the finish has not yet been specified by Sir It therefore seems a fair criticism to ask why, once John and the team, it is now in sight. To dissolve the he had agreed to do the job, he did not take the committee and to produce a report which is only 90% opportunity to consider the recommendation that he baked would go a very long way towards wasting all proceed down a different course. Never mind the fact the effort and the resources which have gone into the that I made that recommendation; it was also made by report so far. It would deny satisfaction to those who a serious committee in the other place, the Public have been waiting for a full conclusion on the matters Administration Committee. Sir John said in his evidence which are of so much concern to so many people, that the inquiry took evidence from 150 witnesses and particularly those who lost loved ones in the war. It saw thousands of documents. One is tempted to suggest would require a gigantic learning curve for those who that he might have foreseen that. would be charged with taking up the task of producing My second point is about the delays. Looking at the an interim report, and it would almost certainly take sequencing of events, it is clear that there was some longer than allowing the present team to conclude its kind of stand-off between the Cabinet Secretary and task. the inquiry team, which lasted for a while. Sir John is There has been much reference, rightly, to the problems not ready to criticise the Cabinet Secretary for delay; which the inquiry has faced. First, as has been said, its none the less it took from July 2012 to January 2015 to terms of reference, settled in the dying days of the last reach an agreement on publishing the Blair-Bush Labour Government, I think in haste and under pressure, correspondence. It is perhaps worth noting that Messrs were ridiculously wide. They covered everything that Blair and Campbell, and Jonathan Powell, had been happened, both politically and militarily, between July able to publish their reports of these conversations 2001 and 2009. The mind boggles at the number of without hindrance. documents and the number of people involved during I am running out of time, so let me conclude with that period. In the review which I led into intelligence this: the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, has put up a on weapons of mass destruction, on Iraq alone there spirited defence about how long it takes to measure were many thousand intelligence reports. The number the march of history, by telling the House how long it of documents and the number of people in this case takes to write a biography. I say to him that his colleague must be many multiples of that. Then, of course, there Charles Moore has written volume 2 of Margaret is also the question of the confidential exchanges with Thatcher’s biography, which I am reading at the moment, allies, particularly the United States, which has been with great aplomb, in an extremely short time. referred to. That is not a straightforward matter. My I want to pick up the issue of our continuing sympathies are, as noble Lords might expect, with the intervention in the Middle East. Let us go back to the Cabinet Secretary in his difficulties over that because, August 2013 vote on not intervening in Syria. We as a if the President of the United States cannot speak country cannot, and should not, make a decision frankly to the Prime Minister of Britain and expect on that until we know of our hand in setting that those confidences to be preserved, future presidents region ablaze in the first instance. That is the least we will not do so. So that has been a genuine problem owe the country. and, if I may say so, trying to deal with United States 863 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 864

[LORD BUTLER OF BROCKWELL] In Iraq, when we crossed the start line on Operation Administrations over the release of papers is also not Telic, we honestly believed that there were weapons of a matter that you can conduct quickly, as I have found mass destruction, in military significant quantities, in my experience. Then there is the question of the in Iraq. I well recall one evening when the Nuclear, Maxwellisation process and fair treatment of the people Biological and Chemical Warfare Warrant Officer looked who were criticised. That, no doubt, led to more like death warmed up. We asked him, “What’s wrong?” documents, which had to be accessed and assessed. and he said that the meteorological conditions were And so the problem has gone on. absolutely perfect for a chemical attack and that we Whatever lessons the inquiry teaches us about the had already crossed several strategic trip wires. Iraq war, there are, as has been said, lessons to be Fortunately, there were no weapons of mass destruction learned about setting up inquiries of this sort. During in Iraq. But in the first missile attack, I, along with all my time in Government, I was involved in setting up the other servicemen in Iraq, donned my full NBC inquiries and since then I have been set up myself, if protection equipment. I do not know what the temperature that is the right term. I say to the noble Baroness, was but it must have been at least 40 degrees centigrade. Lady Falkner—I am sure other people who have I did not know whether I was going to survive the next conducted inquiries would share the view—one does hour but I did know that if I did not get my drills not often get the chance to discuss the job description correct, I could be killed by my own mistakes. before an inquiry is announced. Maxwellisation seems to be aptly named. It seems When an inquiry is being set up, there are huge to be an invitation to be as economic as possible with pressures on the Government to widen the terms of the volume of the evidence that you give to the inquiry reference to cover every angle. If the Government wish because the witness is safe in the knowledge that if the to confine the terms of reference, they risk being accused inquiry gets on the money, they can come back with of covering up. I am particularly glad to see the noble better particulars. Surely it would be much better to and learned Lord, Lord Scott, in his place because I make it quite clear that there will be no Maxwellisation was concerned about the setting up of the arms-to-Iraq or very limited Maxwellisation, so you had better tell inquiry. I remember, vividly, that the Government were the inquiry everything you know. concerned about the charge that, by bringing a prosecution against Matrix Churchill, they had tried to put innocent Many noble Lords have pointed out the difficulties people in jail. That was the subject which prompted that Sir John has experienced. It is worth pointing out the inquiry. The Opposition pressed, understandably, that he could have declined to take the mission or for it to be widened to cover the whole subject of the could have changed the mission. He could have gone export of arms. The Government, because they did back to the Prime Minister and said, “I have had a not want to give the impression they had anything to look at it and it is far too difficult. We need to do two hide, agreed to that and the whole subject was opened inquiries. We need a much more closely focused inquiry”. up. An inquiry which they had expected to take three The key issue for people is: was this war—because that months—I do not know what the noble and learned it what it was—legal and necessary? Actually, there Lord, Lord Scott expected, I have not asked him—took was plenty of time to appoint the inquiry and to think three and a half years to cover that very big subject. about the terms of reference, because the inquiry was The experience of the Chilcot inquiry shows that set up several years after we started the invasion. when we press for inquiries to be set up we should be On the Blair-Bush communications, if you take two careful what we wish for. In this case, it is a very big democratic states to war, you must expect to come subject and it deserves proper treatment. If the inquiry under a certain amount of scrutiny post the event. I has taken the time it has taken, I think we should judge accept that there would have to be some redaction but it by its outcome and be patient until it is delivered. I think that the inquiry is entitled to refer, without all these delays, to what was going on between our Prime 4.47 pm Minister and the President. I do not accept the arguments that we must never know what the two were discussing— Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, I have an interest to because it is absolutely critical to understanding what, declare. I was a TA officer serving in Iraq on Op if anything, went wrong. Telic 1, in the spring of 2003, and I served in the headquarters of the divisional support group of 1 As someone who took part in the military operation (UK) Armoured Division. in Iraq, I think that the inquiry is a complete waste of I assumed that the Prime Minister at the time had a time. It is too late and it is too wide. It does not yet very good reason for invading Iraq. It was not my role hold anyone to account. It also does not yet exonerate to worry about why; my job was to do my duty. For Ministers and officials who, in my opinion, have been me, the purpose of the inquiry is to find out what, if unfairly pilloried—and, I am sorry to say, by senior anything, went wrong, to learn from our mistakes and politicians in my party who should have known better. to inform future policy. I do not see the report as Actually, in terms of the conduct of the operation, the purely of academic or historical interest and I think it logistics side of it, the Ministry of Defence did will help us with our current problems in the Middle exceptionally well and there were some really unfair East. I do not believe that democratic leaders can lead attacks on Labour Defence Ministers. a country to war without being held to account for the When we do get the report, it will really help us to decisions that they made on our behalf. I could see the understand how we got to the current situation in the dodgy dossier for what it was and the inquiry of Middle East, because Saddam Hussein was the first leader the noble Lord, Lord Butler, told us about how sofa that we deposed and we are now not sure whether that government worked. was the right thing to do at all. Finally, of course, 865 Chilcot Inquiry[22 OCTOBER 2015] Chilcot Inquiry 866 the delay in the report and in setting up the inquiry is I remember vividly an exchange at Question Time extremely unfair to the Liberal Democrats because before 1 July 2014 when I complained about the delay they have gone through several general elections without and the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, a former Foreign the benefit of the report, which would tell the electorate Secretary, who is not here today, said that the delay whether they were right or wrong to oppose the war. was a scandal, whatever the reasons for it, on the body politic and the public interest. Why was it so important 4.53 pm for them to turn on Saddam Hussein if regime change was not the main driver? Why did Tony Blair have Lord Dykes (Non-Afl): My Lords, I, too, thank the those embarrassing exchanges in 2002 when there was noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, for launching no question of there being any declaration of war? this debate and raising some of the very searching Why did the then Government ignore the instinct and questions that he did, quite rightly. On 1 July at feelings of 1.5 million people marching down Piccadilly Question Time he referred to these matters and suggested to protest about what was still an illegal war? Why did that there should be some kind of interim publication. the Americans and the British ignore the wise advice None of us can be other than extremely sympathetic of the French Government under President Chirac to the role that the hapless—I use the word deliberately— and Foreign Secretary Dominique de Villepin about Sir John Chilcot has had to undertake in this inquiry. the mistake of going to war on that occasion? Those He is regarded as a person of great integrity, probity things must come up now and all I say in response to and distinction in his field. In many ways, there could the very apposite points made by the noble Lord, not have been a better choice. But I was very struck on Lord Butler, is that it has to be quam celerrime and 4 February when the Foreign Affairs Committee of not too soon. We look forward to seeing the timetable the Commons, chaired by Richard Ottaway, had its on 3 November and then making a judgment. Possibly hearing with him. The then right honourable Sir Menzies there should be another debate in the House of Lords Campbell—now the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of on this matter as soon as possible after that. Pittenweem—asked, “do you ever rue the day that you were asked to take on this 4.58 pm responsibility, Sir John?”. Sir John Chilcot said: Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, I told the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, that if I “I try very hard not to rue the day”. got back from the funeral of Lord Howe of Aberavon He went on to say: I would try to say a few words in the gap. I begin by “May I put it this way, Sir Ming? All of us, and I say this in endorsing everything that my noble friends Lord Luce seriousness, are determined to get this thing done. None of us and Lord Butler said about Lord Howe. This morning’s thought it would take this long. We want to get it done, but we are not going to get it done by scamping the work or failing in the service was a very moving one and the feelings of love essential principles that we have set ourselves: everything we say were palpable throughout because he was a great man and conclude must be based on evidence. It’s got to be fair; it’s got who deserved the affection in which he was held. to be impartial; it’s got to be rigorous—all of that”. There was much laughter as well, which was entirely That must therefore be the background once again to appropriate. the putative timetable for the eventual publication—I I have great concern about this subject. When the very much agree with the analysis of the noble Lord, inquiry was established I was worried about it. I was Lord Butler, on these matters—of the substance of worried that we should have an inquiry which could what happened in those terrible events in 2003: the jeopardise international relations and conversations declaration of a war that was illegal, only certificated between national leaders—the noble Lord, Lord Butler, by the UN under pressure afterwards; the worst possible has already referred to this—and I was also worried post-war Foreign Office decision apart from Suez for about its open-ended nature. However, in those immortal the United Kingdom; the mistakes that were made. words, we are where we are. I endorse very strongly the In the debate which I raised in July 2014, which I general sentiments of my noble friend Lord Finkelstein. think was probably the last substantial debate on this There is no point in having an interim report and matter in this House apart from exchanges at Question abandoning what is there. We now need and deserve to Time, I was very struck by the contribution of a non- know. There must be a thorough examination. Like politician and a non-lawyer, the noble Lord, Lord the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, I am Berkeley of Knighton, who is not here today. He said especially concerned about what happened in the this of the commemorations of the First World War immediate aftermath of the invasion. and all that: I supported the war, as did my noble friend Lord “That is germane to what we are talking about because we owe Finkelstein. He supported it in print; I supported it in it to the many people who gave their lives so bravely and to the speech in the other place. I believed that our Prime many families that lost relatives to always look with microscopic Minister was entirely patriotic in his designs and desires. attention at the reasons for going to war. We know now that many I do not resile from that now, but I want to see a mistakes were made and we really should be trying to use the example of those errors to never make them again. That is why thorough inquiry. Sympathetic as we all are to those this inquiry is so terribly important. Then we have the families of who lost loved ones who laid down their lives in this those representing us who were bereaved in Iraq and—because of war—a small number but, nevertheless, each one an our actions there, arguably—the people who are still losing their individual who means a great deal to his family—we lives”.—[Official Report, 1/7/14; col. 1698.] must not allow our sympathy to create a sense of That was when events were still taking place afterwards. panic. So, Sir John, who has come in for much undeserved It also applies to the fate of Iraqi civilians. That criticism, should know that he has the confidence of should be a substantial part of this report. your Lordships’ House, that he and his team have our 867 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 868

[LORD CORMACK] response should be permitted, in the absence of the trust and that we trust that they will produce a report most exceptional circumstances, to avoid the process that is serious and far-reaching and makes conclusions that fairness requires becoming a negotiation. In my and judgments that are entirely fair. They must not be view, the chairperson of the inquiry should publicly rushed into so doing. We are grateful to the noble and set out a timetable, subject to necessary adjustment, learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, for giving us with a clear explanation of any need for extension. this opportunity, but the message that goes out from When the then Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, your Lordships’ House should of course be that we announced the inquiry in 2009, he said that he was await with eagerness the publication of the report, but advised that it would take a year. It is unacceptable we do not wish to create any sense of undue pressure that, more than six years on, we have had only partial on those who have been charged with producing it. explanations for the delay, despite Sir John’s evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee in February of this 5.02 pm year. For my part, I entirely agree with the noble and Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, learned Lord that I see no reason why this inquiry was I, too, commend the noble and learned Lord, Lord not established under the Inquiries Act 2005. The Morris of Aberavon, on securing this debate. I share Select Committee on the Act, established under the with him and others the concern and frustration at the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Shutt of Greetland, serious delay that has, I fear, damaged the credibility which reported last year, recommended that, of the Iraq inquiry. However, like all the other speakers, “inquiries into issues of public concern should normally be held I do not believe that discharging the inquiry would be under the Act. This is essential where Article 2 of the ECHR is sensible. In my view, that would send us back to square engaged”, one, and for us now effectively to go back to the drawing as it is, of course, loosely, in this case. board would be a great mistake. Indeed, were that course adopted, we might never, after all the expenditure Sir John, in his evidence to the Select Committee, of time and money, secure a final report—and securing did not agree. He felt that the power of compulsion an authoritative report is vital in the public interest. contributed to an overly formal or court-like adversarial What is required now is for the full report to be process, and said: completed and published as quickly as reasonably “The absence of legal powers to subpoena witnesses and to possible. The public, those involved in the events of and take evidence on oath was also the subject of debate when the Inquiry was launched…In my statement of 30 July [2009], I said around the Iraq war, within and outside the armed that the Inquiry is not a court of law and nobody is on trial, and services—in particular, the families of the casualties— that remains the case”. deserve nothing less than a thorough and convincing I disagree with Sir John as to the thrust of that. I report within a clear and achievable timetable. regard the power of compulsion, along with firm time This inquiry has exposed a serious weakness in our management, as essential. It is also quite clear that the arrangements for inquiries, whether or not established protection of national security can be properly managed under the Inquiries Act 2005. Unfortunately, and no on an inquiry under the Act. There is a strong case for doubt in the interests of protecting his independence the Act to be amended to give the commissioning and that of his inquiry, Sir John’s correspondence has Minister the power to require the inquiry chairman to reflected the view that timetabling is a matter for the give a full timetable for his work at the outset and keep inquiry and is almost entirely free from scrutiny. Indeed, it updated as the inquiry develops, much as this House he resisted providing a timetable until 13 October, often does when establishing committees to report to when he promised to write to the Prime Minister by the House. 3 November with a timetable to completion. I agree with the suggestion of my noble friend Lady Falkner I do not believe that an interim report on the that that was probably in response to the tabling of basis of the evidence gathered would be helpful. this debate. As recently as 8 September, Sir John had Such an interim report would be no more than a written thus to the House of Commons Foreign Affairs recitation of the evidence to date, without conclusions Committee: or recommendations, or it would draw provisional “There is, inevitably, further work for my colleagues and I to conclusions open to reversal at a later stage. A record do to evaluate these submissions”— of evidence without the conclusions would be of limited he was referring to the Maxwellisation responses— use because the whole purpose of an inquiry is to draw “which are detailed and substantial, in order to establish with such conclusions, and without them, the report—interim confidence the time needed to complete the Inquiry’s remaining or not—is of no help. Moreover, I agree strongly with work. As soon as I am able to I shall write to the Prime Minister others who have spoken that an interim report containing with a timetable for publication of the Inquiry’s report”. the evidence and interim conclusions would be confusing I do not accept the view of the noble Earl, Lord and unsatisfactory. It would leave the inquiry open Attlee, that there is no need for the Maxwellisation to charges of interference if any of the provisional process, but I suspect that its management has been conclusions were altered, and neither set of conclusions— insufficiently strict. I also suspect that, had a senior interim or final—would command any respect. If they judge been in charge, with experience of bringing turned out to be the same, the final conclusions would difficult cases to readiness for trial, much tighter deadlines be criticised on the basis that they were reached precisely would have been imposed, and imposed publicly. The in order to accord with the interim conclusions—by need for a public timetable is one of the things we definition, the incompletely considered conclusions. should stress. I cannot believe, for example, that any If the conclusions were different, then the final conclusions individual needs more than two months to respond to would be criticised for inconsistency with the provisional indicative criticisms. I am also clear that only one conclusions earlier expressed. 869 Chilcot Inquiry[22 OCTOBER 2015] Chilcot Inquiry 870

Therefore, let us await the timetable for publication With the Tory Government hinting very strongly on 3 November in the hope that this debate has that they are anxious to intervene in Syria, it would be brought home to the public and the inquiry members invaluable to learn whether and how mistakes were the importance of completing an authoritative work made so that they can be avoided in future. That may and producing a report with expedition. determine whether and how we intervene at all—who knows? How and to what extent we should take a lead 5.10 pm or work with coalition partners in future in the Middle Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab): My Lords, I first East neighbourhood, and how much influence we stood at this Dispatch Box about a year and a half have on them, are crucial questions for our long-term ago, and the issue we were discussing at that point was strategic plans in the region. Chilcot; we were awaiting the imminent publication of We know that there have been many reasons for the the report. But here we sit, £10 million poorer and still delay in publication; they have been outlined very waiting. clearly by my noble and learned friend Lord Morris I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Morris and other noble Lords. It was caused partly by discussions for his perseverance in pursuing the publication of this over certain classified documents, in particular in relation report, but we do not believe that it would make sense, to correspondence with US Presidents. after all the money spent and all the time committed, Members of the inquiry team have had access to to dismiss members of the inquiry team and produce and sight of this information; they are all privy counsellors an interim report. However, I cannot emphasise enough and have had access to thousands of documents which that Labour would like to see the report published as have been declassified from a number of government soon as possible without compromising the thoroughness departments, including the most sensitive intelligence of the inquiry. documents. My understanding therefore is that Gordon It is worth recalling that we are not here today to Brown’s promise at the start of this inquiry that, debate the substantive issues of the Chilcot inquiry. “No British document and no British witness will be beyond the scope of the inquiry”,—[Official Report, Commons, Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Iraqi invasion, 15/6/09; col. 23.] a Labour Government under Gordon Brown initiated has been respected. the Chilcot inquiry in 2009—a public inquiry into the nation’s role in the Iraq war. We appreciate the vast The Maxwellisation process has also caused severe scope of the report, both in terms of the time period it delays and, while we do not object to this process, it covers and the range of issues which it seeks to address. seems extremely odd—as suggested by the noble Lord, The report will cover the run-up to the 2003 conflict, Lord Marks—not to have given deadlines to witnesses the legality of military action, faulty intelligence, the within which time they needed to respond. subsequent military action and its aftermath, and will It is important that not only do we learn lessons attempt to establish the way decisions were made and from the invasion of Iraq so that those mistakes are the handling of Iraq after the invasion. It will also not repeated but that we learn lessons from our system identify lessons to be learned to ensure that in a of carrying out inquiries in this country.Even independent similar situation the British Government will be equipped inquiries need budget and time restrictions. This is to respond in the most effective manner and in the best not the first time that an inquiry has taken so long. interests of the country. The task set for the committee The al-Sweady inquiry took five years to report and is huge. cost £24 million. The Baha Mousa inquiry took three years and cost over £13.5 million. The Bloody Sunday Six years since the establishment of the inquiry, inquiry cost £195 million and took 12 years to report. with hearings completed in 2011, it is difficult to These are obscene figures and we cannot continue to explain, in particular to the families of those who lost function in this way when the country is under such loved ones in the war—alluded to by my noble and immense financial pressure. learned friend Lord Morris and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner—the prolonged length of time it has We believe that it is time for the truth on this matter taken to complete this difficult exercise. The people to come out. It is time for the report to be published involved in decisions on intervention in Iraq have also but we are prepared to be a little more patient so that stated that they are keen to see the report published. the job is completed properly. Tony Blair himself said in June last year: “I have got as much interest as anyone in seeing the inquiry 5.16 pm publish its findings”. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord However, the delay in the publication however does Bridges of Headley) (Con): My Lords, I congratulate not matter just to them but to all of us. Even the most the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, on securing cursory glance at the region today leads us to conclude this debate on the Chilcot inquiry. I also thank all noble that post-war preparation was ill-conceived and ill- Lords who have contributed to this debate—there have prepared. The area of Iraq is still extremely unstable, been some extremely good and informative speeches. with IS having taken control of large swathes of the Once again a number of your Lordships, but by no means country.The United Kingdom Government, with support all, have spoken eloquently of the need for the inquiry from Labour, have already agreed to go back into to publish the report as soon as possible. As the noble Iraq to help support the democratically elected Iraqi and learned Lord, Lord Morris, and my noble friend Government, who are finding it hard to withstand the Lord Dykes, said, uppermost in our minds are the incursions of ISIL. It would have been useful to know families and friends who lost loved ones in Iraq, as prior to that decision whether we could have learned well as those who were severely injured, who have been lessons from our previous intervention. waiting for years for the publication of the report. 871 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 872

[LORD BRIDGES OF HEADLEY] course of action set out in the Question, it would Despite this sense of disappointment that the report undermine the fundamental independence of the inquiry. has still not been published, I am sure that everyone Therefore, we have to see it through, otherwise any here would agree that, as my noble friend Lord Finkelstein outcome will be significantly devalued and it will delay remarked, this inquiry is unprecedented in its scope closure on what has been such a controversial episode and scale. Never before has a UK public inquiry in British political history, as the noble Baroness, Lady examined in such depth and detail a decision to go to Williams, set out very eloquently. war and its consequences with unprecedented access Once the report is published, there will be an initial to question the people who took those decisions and Statement from the Government in both Houses. Then, advised on those decisions, as well as having access to once we have all had the opportunity to read and the papers surrounding discussions. I think there will digest what the report has to say, there will be an be surprise at the number and extent of highly classified opportunity for a full debate in both Houses. and sensitive material that will be published with the report. I will now touch upon a couple of points that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, mentioned, in As has been said, it is more than six years since this particular about the release of papers relating to Tony inquiry of privy counsellors was set up by the previous Blair’s correspondence with President Bush, a point Labour Government and no one at the time expected that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, also referred to. it would still not have published its findings in 2015. I should make it completely clear at the outset that the Sir John himself said, not long after the inquiry was inquiry has had full access to the information that it launched, that he expected it to conclude within 18 months. has requested. The discussion was about the disclosure However as Sir John said earlier this year: of the information that the inquiry had access to. “I don’t believe it was possible then … to have foreseen the I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for setting out nature and range of issues that would be disclosed progressively in a little detail what actually happened. from the examination not only of witnesses in the oral hearings, On 15 July 2013, Sir John Chilcot wrote to the but of the extraordinarily wide-ranging and voluminous archive”. Prime Minister confirming that he had begun a dialogue As a number of noble Lords have said, I am sure with Sir Jeremy Heywood about the material that the that when the report is published and its conclusions inquiry wished to reflect in its analysis of discussions have been considered, we will also wish to debate what in Cabinet and Cabinet Committees and the references lessons we can learn from this inquiry, as the noble that the inquiry wished to make about the contents of Baroness just said, in terms of the process that has Mr Blair’s notes to President Bush and discussions been followed, be it on Maxwellisation, that the noble between Mr Blair and Mr Brown and Presidents Bush Lord, Lord Marks, spoke about or other matters, such and Obama. As Sir Jeremy Heywood made clear when as its remit or how it was established. However, I he addressed the then Public Administration Committee would argue that that debate is best had when the in the other place in January this year, he approached report is published. As to the publication of the report, the question of declassification with a bias towards since I last answered the noble and learned Lord’s transparency, including Tony Blair’s memos to George Question in the Chamber last July there has been Bush and the Cabinet minutes. I should add that Sir some progress. As we have heard, Sir John has confirmed John told the Foreign Affairs Select Committee in the that all the individuals who received provisional criticisms other place: under the Maxwellisation process have responded and “I have no indication that Sir Jeremy acted otherwise than Sir John is currently evaluating those responses. Crucially, properly throughout”. last week, the inquiry informed No. 10 that Sir John On 28 July 2014, Sir John wrote to Sir Jeremy would write to the Prime Minister by 3 November with Heywood confirming that agreement had been reached a timetable for the completion of the report. Therefore, on principles underpinning the disclosure of notes by early next month, we should know when the report and records relating to the Prime Minister and US will be delivered. President’s discussions, and that agreement had been I turn now to the noble and learned Lord’s question reached on the detail of what the inquiry would release for debate. In the light of these developments, he will in relation to the Cabinet and Cabinet Committee not be too surprised when I say that the Government discussions. As Sir John told the Foreign Affairs Select do not believe there is a case for discharging the Committee, this process took 13 months. chairman and members of the inquiry and inviting the The noble and learned Lord is perfectly justified to Cabinet Secretary to set out a mechanism for an interim ask why this process took so long. The simple answer report to be produced on the basis of the evidence is that disclosure in this way of papers involving gathered. As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, in less communications between a Prime Minister and a than two weeks we will have a timetable for publication, US President is, as far as I understand it, almost and we owe it to the families to continue with this unprecedented. I say almost, because the Franks report inquiry as it aims to provide the answers that they into the Falklands War did refer to the contents of desperately want. Discharging the inquiry at this stage communications between Margaret Thatcher and would obviously not help that process. President Reagan, although these were direct references As has been mentioned, the inquiry is fully independent rather than extracts. of government. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, the inquiry’s Morris, said, this inquiry was not set up under the Inquiries request for disclosure raised issues of long-standing Act. This means, of course, that it has no statutory principle; for example, the importance of preserving basis as such. If the Government were to accept the the privileged channel of communication between the 873 Chilcot Inquiry[22 OCTOBER 2015] Chilcot Inquiry 874

Prime Minister and the US President. In taking the “Consideration will be based on the principle that our use of decision to allow disclosure of this information, Sir Jeremy this material should not reflect President Bush’s views. We have had to balance the possible damage to UK-US relations, also agreed that the use of direct quotation from the documents should be the minimum necessary to enable the Inquiry to articulate and the potential that, in future, free and frank exchanges its conclusions”. might be inhibited by this disclosure, against the exceptional nature of the inquiry and the central Secondly, in all inquiries where national security is importance to the inquiry’s work of these exchanges. an issue, documents have to undergo a declassification The negotiations were worked through in good faith, process to protect sensitive information. As your Lordships with the aim of enabling the inquiry to publish as will know, for the Iraq inquiry this process was conducted much material as possible. However, all this took time under a protocol agreed between the Government and to resolve. the inquiry which established strict parameters within which the Government could seek redactions, principally I turn to an issue that the noble and learned Lord, on national security or international relations grounds. Lord Morris, the noble Lord, Lord Parekh and the noble This states that, if the inquiry believes proposed redactions Earl, Lord Attlee also raised—about the value and are not desirable, it can write to the Cabinet Secretary worth of releasing such material if it is redacted. Clearly, to seek a redaction. If no agreement is reached and the the best time for us to judge the answer to this question material is not published, will be when the report is actually published. However, “it would remain open to the Inquiry to refer, in its report, to the as Sir John Chilcot made clear earlier this year when fact that material it would have wished to publish had been he appeared before the Foreign Affairs Committee in withheld”. the other place, it is essential to establish an account of Our aim has always been to allow the inquiry to what happened—an account that people can trust. publish as much material as possible. In conclusion, we all agree that this inquiry must be The inquiry has spent time and effort in ensuring it fair and impartial but, above all, rigorous, with its can publish the material it needs from those documents. conclusions firmly based on the evidence. To do that, I would, however, make a few observations. First, as it must be independent of Government and therefore, Sir John Chilcot wrote to the Cabinet Secretary on however frustrating it may be that the inquiry has 28 May 2014, regarding the use of quotes from the not published its report, it must be allowed to complete gist of notes pertaining to communications between its job. the Prime Minister and the President of the United States: House adjourned at 5.27 pm.

GC 25 Lyme Disease[22 OCTOBER 2015] Lyme Disease GC 26

Too little is known about Lyme disease, and there is Grand Committee controversy over its incidence, its diagnosis, its treatment and the relative success of different treatments. There Thursday, 22 October 2015. is also confusion because there are other tick-related diseases which we appear to know even less about than Lyme disease, and which we might well be talking Lyme Disease about in this way in a few years’ time. Question for Short Debate Things have been improving. The understanding and importance that the NHS gives to Lyme disease has improved in the past year or two. However, ticks 1pm are spreading; there is no doubt that there are more of Asked by Lord Greaves them. The question is: can anything be done about that, or do we simply have to accept that it is part and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action parcel of the wildlife out there and we have to live they are taking to combat Lyme disease and other with it? tick-related illnesses. Information and public education are not as good as they ought to be, although happily this debate Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, Lyme disease, or coincides with quite a lot of publicity in the media Lyme borreliosis, is an infectious disease transmitted about ticks and Lyme disease largely because a number to humans and other animals by bites from infected of celebrities appear to have caught it. John Caudwell, ticks, which are small blood-sucking arthropods related the founder of Phones 4u—I confess that I have never to spiders, and I can tell you that they are pretty nasty heard of it before—and his family are running a things. Ticks occur throughout the UK. They live on campaign and other celebrities have been found to vegetation, particularly damp areas of vegetation such have this. So, this is causing a useful outbreak of as bracken. They are found throughout the countryside publicity and one which I hope the Government will but they also appear in towns—in parks and increasingly take advantage of. in suburban gardens—and they appear to be increasing in number. I have one or two high-level questions for the Lyme disease can cause debilitating conditions, both acute Government. First, is it time for a major Government- and chronic. Basically, it can knock people out, producing sponsored inquiry into the growing incidence of ticks symptoms similar to ME, migraines, neurological symptoms in the environment and tick-related diseases? It is not and persistent flu-like symptoms—symptoms both physical just the countryside—it is happening in people’s gardens. and mental—so it is pretty serious stuff. At the moment, Secondly, is there a need to promote much better the only test for Lyme disease is a blood test, which is knowledge of ticks and Lyme disease among doctors, not wholly reliable since it produces many false negatives. nurses and health professionals generally? I think it is The levels of knowledge about this disease within the obvious that there is a very great need for this. Certainly, NHS are inadequate—some would say woefully inadequate. an increasing number who know about these things, but there are many doctors whose knowledge is woefully I thank all noble Lords who have put their names inadequate. down to speak. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, would very much have liked to be here, but she is poorly; I am Thirdly, what can be done to make the general sure that we all wish her well. public more aware? I am talking about the outdoor fraternity, organisations such as the Ramblers and the My interest in this disease came originally from British Mountaineering Council—I declare an interest outdoor activities—from a life spent mountaineering, as a vice-president—as well as farmers, gardeners, and walking and climbing. My interest in it was rekindled schools that take their children out into the countryside. about a year ago by an article I read in Le Monde, There is scope for much better information and which led me to put down a number of Written understanding out there. Lyme Disease Action has Questions last January, which I trust have been circulated asked for five things to be done and I would like to put by the Library. The point that I got from that article these on record and ask the Government for their was that knowledge of Lyme disease is not only insufficient response to them. but very controversial in health services in different parts of the world. I pay tribute to Lyme Disease First, it stresses the need to find out how many Action, a small charity, which provides assistance to people in the UK are infected and affected by Lyme people with Lyme symptoms and with Lyme disease. disease. We need to know the true scale of the problem It also campaigns for improved services within the and, at the moment, we do not know that. There are NHS and provides some extremely useful material, something like 1,200 positive test results a year in the both in pamphlet form and on its website. Without its UK. The NHS believes the number of people infected resources, I think we would be in an even more difficult with Lyme disease each year is about 3,000, but it position. might be a lot more. There is a lot of misdiagnosis. After I tabled this Question, I spent three weeks last People are diagnosed with Lyme disease when they June—skiving off, as they say—in the French Pyrenees, have something else and a lot of people who have in the mountains. One morning, I woke up in bed to Lyme disease, whether it is the immediate form or the find this nasty creature burrowing deeply into my chronic form, are not being diagnosed. stomach. It was the first time that I had been head to Secondly, there is a need for the NHS to acknowledge head with a tick—or should I say her head and my the uncertainties with diagnosis and treatment. There belly?—and it was not a pleasant experience. is a lot of anecdotal evidence of being people being GC 27 Lyme Disease[LORDS] Lyme Disease GC 28

[LORD GREAVES] and how to take sensible precautions, such as stay on told, frankly, nonsensical things. A classic case was paths, avoid dense vegetation, and cover arms and somebody who was told they could not have Lyme legs. I often see people and very young children with disease because they lived in London. People are also bare arms or legs walking through the dense ferns and being told that the tests are accurate and reliable, and long grass, and their parents are oblivious to the risk they are not. Too many consultants are saying the they face. blood tests are perfect and the treatment always works. I suffered a tick bite, with its bullseye rash, a few Neither is true. weeks ago. My GP at the nearby Sheen Lane Surgery Thirdly, there needs to be a better working partnership responded quickly and prescribed antibiotics. Other between LDA and the NHS. One of my daughters’ GPs may not be so alert, yet early diagnosis is key to partners has a lot of Lyme-type symptoms and has preventing the disease progressing to more serious been passed from pillar to post by doctors, consultants stages. Public Health England estimates that there are and clinics in different places in North Yorkshire, up to 3,000 new cases of Lyme disease in England and where they live. The problem is that nobody is taking Wales each year. The British Society for Immunology responsibility for sorting out what is wrong with that confirms that cases have risen steadily, as they have in person. That is a typical experience in a lot of places. Europe. Apart from a rash, early symptoms can include Fourthly, guidance for UK health professionals fatigue, fever, and headache, y et there appears to be needs to be developed, especially for those in secondary no consensus on the complexity of the disease or the care. I am aware that Public Health England and many clinical outcomes that it can produce. The problem NICE are working on this, but some interim guidance of observable clinical features is exacerbated by the is needed urgently. Fifthly, regional centres of experience difficulty in confirming a diagnosis. As Public Health need to be established so that the burden does not all England confirms, cases left unaddressed or belatedly fall on one small charity. treated with antibiotics can lead to very serious problems, such as Lyme arthritis, myocarditis, and meningitis. I shall finish with a quote from LDA: “The current level of knowledge is appalling. Doctors do not Testing does not confirm the actual presence of the understand the tests, the epidemiology or the disease itself”. bacteria, simply the body’s immune reaction to having I am impressed by the number of people who have encountered that bacterium at some previous time. It been in contact with me since this question was tabled. takes several weeks for an infected person to produce I would love to read out a lot of what they say, but I the relevant antibodies, so an early test may produce a have not got time. There is a serious problem. I look false negative result. Treatment by antibiotics can slow forward to the debate and to the Minister’s response. or stop the production of the key antibodies altogether. The charity Lyme Disease Action complains that many 1.10 pm clinicians remain unaware of the extent of the limitations of laboratory investigations. Tests can help to confirm Baroness Drake (Lab): My Lords, ticks are a tiny Lyme disease, but no blood test can completely rule it blood-sucking species which feed on animals including out. Yet some GPs treat test results as definitive. humans. They have been around a long time: they The British Society for Immunology is right to call belong to the family of arthropods that began to for the funding of further research to establish more evolve 500 million years ago. Despite this longevity, accurate diagnostic tests. More research is also needed however, most of the UK population is still unaware on the disease itself. No vaccine is available. Protecting of how nasty these little creatures can be. against tick bites can help to prevent Lyme disease. Last month the London School of Hygiene and Even if, like me, you take great precautions, you can Tropical Medicine published its research into ticks to still get bitten. This takes us back to the importance of establish to what extent they carry the bacterial pathogen greater public awareness and of information alerting that causes Lyme disease. Its team of experts conducted people to the risk of tick bites, what to look for, what research in south London parks, including Richmond to do, and how to take sensible precautions. Park, a nature reserve of some 2,360 acres. There they collected more than 1,100 ticks. A quarter of these 1.15 pm were tested for the infectious pathogen and about 3% were found to be carriers. Their report, however, considers Lord Luce (CB): My Lords, we should thank the the potential risk to humans to be much more significant noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for raising this issue. I than the statistics might suggest, because almost all think I am right in saying that this is the first time that the infected ticks were found in open grassland in it has been raised in Parliament. That would not be areas frequented by the huge number of visitors. surprising because compared to other diseases it is According to a 2015 Ipsos MORI survey, Richmond relatively new, and so little is known about it still. The Park receives 5.5 million visitors each year. It is no noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has highlighted the scale of wonder that the London School of Hygiene has called the problem. My interest is not that of an expert. I upon the royal parks to encourage visitors to take must underline that point straight from the beginning. preventive measures, by increasing public awareness. I am looking forward to hearing what the experts here However, this just is not happening—either in have to say and, indeed, what the Minister has to say Richmond or elsewhere. I walk most days in Richmond about this. Park and much work is done to keep it so beautiful. It I speak as someone who knows a number of people has large herds of fallow and red deer, which are ideal who have Lyme disease, and I know how unpleasant it tick hosts, but there is little information alerting people is. It is clearly very complex, as the noble Lord, Lord to the risks or suggesting what to look for, what to do Greaves, has highlighted. It has spread to many parts GC 29 Lyme Disease[22 OCTOBER 2015] Lyme Disease GC 30 of the United Kingdom. It is the largest tick-borne 1.20 pm disease in the United Kingdom and it is also a serious Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB): My Lords, I thank problem elsewhere, including the United States and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for this short debate parts of the continent. It is a relatively new experience alerting your Lordships to a topical issue. Last Thursday, for us in this country. the Evening Standard had a double page headed, “The To me, the key point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ticking Lyme Bomb”, and yesterday the Daily Mail Greaves, is the lack of knowledge on the parts of both had a large article entitled, “So what IS the truth the public and most of the medical profession. Indeed, about the Lyme disease ‘epidemic’?”. I come from it has been suggested that as far as the public are North Yorkshire, which is one of the areas listed as concerned, one in three people does not realise that having a particularly high population of ticks. Lyme they have a tick on them, or have had a tick. They disease is transmitted by the bite of a tick affected would not know that they had this particular disease, with Borrelia burgdorferi bacteria. Ticks do not jump or what caused the symptoms. We are told that earlier or fly but climb on clothes or skin. The bite does not diagnosis and treatment is very important. If this can itch or hurt, so the tick can remain on the skin for be achieved, the disease may still not be 100% safe but longer than 24 hours, which is dangerous. at least it is better than the second stage. Gamekeepers who walk in heather and bracken are There are two areas where I would like to add to the always well protected as they are dressed in thick points made by the noble Lord and ask the Minister to tweed plus-fours and jackets, thick stockings and boots, comment. The first is the position of the medical but nowadays I see more and more people running in profession. As someone who campaigns on the issue shorts, sometimes with no socks, or having picnics in of chronic pain, I have every sympathy with GPs, who parks in hot weather wearing little clothing. Could very often are overwhelmed by pressure and demands. this be a reason for the increase in tick bites? I know of Here we are with another issue which we are asking a woman from the Czech Republic who got a tick bite them to pay attention to. Some of them probably picking mushrooms in a forest. She got a rash and never see, or have not yet seen, cases of Lyme disease went straight to her doctor. She was given the appropriate themselves, so it is not surprising that many of them antibiotics and did not develop the problems which do not know much about it and may misdiagnose. I can be associated with Lyme disease. Can the Minister very much want to support Lyme Disease Action. The tell us whether enough people know what to do when question of a regional service with specialist GPs was bitten? raised by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. A regional I am told there are three vaccines for dogs but none service with specialist nurses and disease consultants for humans. How much research is taking place? Are could provide services and support for GPs in that we sharing research with other European countries, region. Would that help the GPs to do their job more Canada and the USA that have the problem? The effectively? I would be interested to hear what the Health Protection Agency is very important. Can the Minister has to say. Minister tell the Committee what research is being My second point has also been touched upon. How undertaken into complications resulting in long-term do we help those who are not diagnosed early enough, damage to the nervous system, joints and heart issue? or who for the reasons we have already discussed have Could there be any danger of Lyme disease being fallen through the net and received no treatment whatever? passed on by body fluids, such as infected sexual fluid We do not know how many are in this category, and I which is lingering on and being found in people with hope that more information will be made available in Ebola? due course. We have already heard about the kind of Now the problems have been highlighted, results symptoms that people face when they have had this should be made public and help should be made disease for some time: flu-like symptoms, persistent available for those who need it. I hope this debate will fatigue, pain, and impaired memory. People can be help to make more people aware of what infected ticks affected for a large part of their life, or for many years. can do. Indeed, they may lose their job—it is that serious. It seems to me that the great uncertainty is what is the most effective diagnosis and treatment for those who 1.23 pm are suffering from this in the longer term. We ought to Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab): My Lords, acknowledge the work of the Public Health England I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for introducing Porton Down laboratories, which provide specialist this debate and for his continued commitment to expertise in Ebola and Lyme disease. We should not bringing this complex disease to our attention. As we underestimate what they do for us. have heard, many of us know someone or of someone There seems to be a considerable dispute as to who has experienced the distressing symptoms of Lyme whether chronic and persistent Lyme disease actually disease. That is certainly what sparked my interest in exists at all. I know that some doctors can be dismissive the topic. The high public profile of some sufferers has of the idea and dismiss people with the symptoms we meant that their stories and the controversies surrounding have been talking about. They quite often lash around the disease have been widely reported in recent weeks. spending money on researching what to do about the Lyme disease has been in the UK since the late symptoms, perhaps without realising that it is Lyme 1970s, but over the past decade cases of the disease disease, thus incurring quite a lot of expenditure for have quadrupled. Public Health England suggests that the National Health Service. I look forward to hearing there are some 3,000 new cases each year, although from the Minister on that issue as well. Could we fund others put the figure much higher. We know the disease extensive research in order to find out more about it? is transmitted by infected ticks, often on deer and GC 31 Lyme Disease[LORDS] Lyme Disease GC 32

[BARONESS WARWICK OF UNDERCLIFFE] 1.27 pm mice, and they like grassland and leafy areas, so we are at risk whether we are walking on the Yorkshire moors Lord Patel (CB): My Lords, I thank the noble or in London’s deer parks. Lord, Lord Greaves, for introducing this debate and I Lyme disease is on the increase across the UK, yet have pleasure in contributing to it. First, I want to talk it is not diagnosed easily and there is a lack of adequate about personal experience. My wife, Helen, whose treatment. A common thread of the many cases we chosen full-time occupation would be gardening, is read about is that the doctors know very little about continuously bitten by these things and is always Lyme disease or have ruled out the diagnosis. Perhaps pulling them out using sharp tweezers, except for the that is not surprising, given how new the disease is to places that she cannot reach, in which case she has to the UK. Many doctors will simply never have come wait until I get home. The year before last she had a across a case. However, there is also division within the tick bite and removed it. Unfortunately, a week or so medical community on just about every aspect of this later she developed some symptoms when I was not disease. Some think it is rare and easy to treat with a there—I was away. Fortunately, our resident young few weeks’ of antibiotics and that there is no such doctor, the partner of my son, realised that, having thing as long-term Lyme disease; others believe that it pulled out a tick a few days earlier, the symptoms is becoming more prevalent and is much more difficult could well have been those of Lyme disease. She found to treat than previously suggested, and that it can lead a GP and suggested that Lyme disease be considered to severe chronic illness. Medical opinion in the UK as a possible diagnosis. The GP prescribed antibiotics has tended to the former view. and my wife was fine. However, it is a nasty disease if not treated properly. One complication is that symptoms can vary; not everyone bitten by an infected tick will display the Diagnosis is based on the so-called classical bull’s-eye so-called bull’s-eye rash. If this is the case, then what rash, although it does not occur every time; nor can the doctor sees could be just a range of flu-like, you find the tick on each occasion. Diagnosis can also non-specific symptoms, such as tiredness, muscle and be made through blood tests; the first is an antibody joint pain, headaches, fever and chills, before more test. Antibodies do not develop until the bacteria have serious neurological or heart problems develop much been in action for a while and the body responds to later. Reliance on a diagnosis has almost exclusively them—hence, if the initial test is made too early, it rested on the blood test which detects antibodies to often gives a false negative. Another test is the Western the disease. Yet these tests, as again we have heard, are blot test, which is much more reliable but has to be too often inaccurate or unreliable, and even if antibiotics done much later. If you wait for that test without are prescribed the dose may not be strong enough, or treatment, the question is whether the treatment is the course long enough, to deal with the Lyme bacteria. likely to be less satisfactory, particularly if the bacteria UK cautiousness about overprescription of antibiotics have progressed—because the disease is caused not by is blamed for this. the tick but by the Borrelia bacteria. The vector is the It is good news that US researchers are making tick but the primary reservoir is not the tick; it is either progress on developing a vaccine-like treatment, which a mouse or other rodent, and it is carried by other would provide immediate protection against Lyme mammals such as deer or even dogs, although they do disease for the six months when the ticks are active. not get infected. When the tick sucks blood from your But until that emerges, the only way in which to body, the bacteria are transmitted. If while removing prevent the disease is to avoid getting bitten. So it is the tick you crush it or try to burn it off, the bacteria vital that people are shown what they can do to will spread and get into your blood, where it causes protect themselves, and that GPs are given more the different symptoms of the disease. information about the growing prevalence of the disease. There are two aspects to this, one of which is I am encouraged that the charity Lyme Disease prevention. In prevention, the key factor is that those Action and the Public Health England Lyme disease who are likely to be exposed to the risk of tick bites reference laboratory are now able to work together on should be aware of that and take precautions to avoid difficult cases and equivocal test results. But more GPs being bitten, which includes wearing clothing that need to be made aware of the testing facilities and may be impregnated with something like DEET, expertise at the Government’s Porton Down laboratories. which is a powerful insecticide. The other is the need Public Health England currently recommends guidelines for heightened awareness among health workers of published by the Infectious Diseases Society of America, the likelihood of a diagnosis of Lyme disease. It is but we need UK and European guidelines to provide easy to diagnose when the patient has a history of a GPs with the full range of scientific evidence and tick bite and there is a rash. However, while the medical opinion available. So will the Minister, on guidance produced by NICE, which was revised in behalf of the Government, ask Public Health England February 2015, is good, where I differ from it is that to produce national guidance? We also need better the guidance states that if you do not have a rash and diagnostic tests, more surveillance and more information there is no sign of a tick bite, antibiotics should not be about the scale of the problem. Can the Minister tell prescribed. I think that if there is a history of a tick us what consideration is being given to whether Lyme bite and the symptoms fit with those of Lyme disease, disease should be given notifiable status by medical treatment with antibiotics should begin. If it is not practitioners? Until we have greater GP and public treated early, the antibiotic treatment has to go on for awareness, more testing and earlier diagnoses, we will a long period. Once the bacteria get into the spinal continue to have more chronic, life-changing cases of fluid or the nervous system, the disease is difficult to this complicated disease. treat. GC 33 Lyme Disease[22 OCTOBER 2015] Lyme Disease GC 34

So the key issues are prevention and heightened aware of the pressures on curriculum time in our public awareness, along with the need for greater undergraduate medical courses. None the less, what awareness among health workers. They should think are the Government doing to encourage awareness about Lyme disease if there is a history of tick bite among GPs of tick-borne infections? This is of course and the patient presents with symptoms which, while a matter for continuing professional development but they may seem flu-like, typically progress to other there is also a role for the state, which bears the costs symptoms. Those are the key points which are reported. of undiagnosed and misdiagnosed cases that lead to Why is it called Lyme disease? Because it started in a severe and chronic disease. small town called Lyme in Connecticut. Lyme disease is a good example of the “one health” concept, which recognises the connectivity between 1.31 pm human and animal health, and indeed plant and Lord Trees (CB): My Lords, I too thank the noble environmental health. It is a concept embraced well by Lord, Lord Greaves, for bringing forward this timely vets but, I suggest, is understood much less by our debate. As someone who for much of their professional hard-pressed GPs. Pathogens do not recognise differences life has researched and taught on tick-borne diseases, I between humans and animals. With regard to zoonotic never imagined that I would be speaking on this infections, those infections specifically transmitted between subject in your Lordships’ House, but I would say that animals and humans and vice versa, such as the agent my students might have preferred it had my lectures of Lyme disease, we need to ensure that our GPs are been limited to four minutes, as are today’s contributions. adequately aware of the hazards. That way we can I may be the only person here who has actually been to prevent serious illness in people and reduce burdens Lyme. During a road trip down the eastern seaboard on the hard-pressed NHS. of the US some years ago, I dragged my wife on a detour to visit the lovely New England village of 1.35 pm Lyme in Connecticut with white clapboard houses. It Baroness Parminter (LD): I add my thanks to the is where, in the 1970s, the first outbreak of the disease noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for calling this important was thoroughly investigated, which led to the discovery debate. It is clear that cases of Lyme disease are of the causal organism and much of the characterisation increasing across Europe. As someone who, like the of the disease. However, the first important point to noble Lord, Lord Trees, is passionate about the appreciate is that this is not a new disease. The countryside and encourages people to go out and characteristic skin lesion was first described as far enjoy it, I think we need to address the problems that back as 1909. this disease is causing but in a way that does not stop Looking at the data from Public Health England, it people going out and getting the health-giving benefits is not clear whether there has been a big change in of being in the countryside. The noble Lord, Lord incidence, but there is certainly a big increase in concern. Greaves, is right to focus on the need for better There is certainly some evidence of increased distribution understanding of the level of the disease, as many and abundance of the tick vector, Ixodes ricinus, and noble Lords have said, on the necessary improvements in recent years we have seen an increase in the number in diagnosis and testing, and on the critical importance of wild animal hosts, particularly deer and game birds, of some speed in getting clear guidance for our health both of which are extremely good hosts for ticks. professionals. There is also an increase in human contact with ticks, I come to this debate today, with the short time not only in rural areas but also in peri-urban and allotted to us, to make one point, which was first suburban areas. raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake: the need As I say, it is well known that deer are excellent for far better public awareness of this issue. In looking hosts for the tick. Like the noble Lord, Lord Patel, I into the research for this debate over the weekend, I live in Perthshire and I regularly have to pick ticks off was at the same time packing my eldest daughter’s myself that I contract in the garden, which is frequently kitbag for her Duke of Edinburgh award. She was off visited by deer. But—this is an important point—the to the South Downs. Like the noble Baroness, Lady ticks are almost always at the larval stage; they are Masham, I was looking at the lists of where the most tiny, pinhead-sized larvae which do not transmit Lyme infected ticks are: it is not just North Yorkshire but disease. It is during the larger nymphal and adult also the South Downs. I asked my daughter, as we stages when the disease is transmitted, and these ticks were packing an increasingly large amount of kit into are much less abundant than the larvae. her bag, what she would do if she encountered a tick. There are risks, but I would like to make the point My daughter is a fairly intelligent 15 year-old but she that it would be a tragedy if people were dissuaded had no idea what to do. I asked her whether they had from enjoying the great benefits of the outdoors for talked about it in her D of E training but they had not. fear of Lyme disease. Having said that, there is no When I went back through the information that I had doubt that it is a severe and debilitating disease if it is been sent—you get voluminous lists of kit that you as not diagnosed and treated early. In the absence of a a parent need to provide—there was nothing about vaccine for humans, I suggest that the key to controlling ticks. We were sending off these girls for two nights it, as has been said by a number of noble Lords, is to and three days on the South Downs, and not one of ensure that GPs are aware of the threat and are thus them would have known what to do. able to instigate early diagnosis and treatment. The great thing about the Duke of Edinburgh It is a fact that in western medicine GP training in scheme is that it gets our children out into the countryside zoonotic infections and parasitic diseases is very limited. and teaches them great skills of leadership; it is growing, That is for understandable reasons, and I am fully which means more children are taking part, and that is GC 35 Lyme Disease[LORDS] Lyme Disease GC 36

[BARONESS PARMINTER] disability can become very severe and lasting with, to be encouraged. However, it is quite clear that it has frustratingly, no consensus on approach or treatment. no engagement with a fundamental problem that these I recently watched a DVD from the charity Canine young adults, who are going to be the young parents Partners which showed how an assistance dog helped and young leaders of the future, might encounter. It and supported a wonderful woman called Sue, who strikes me that we need to address that, and I urgently was diagnosed with Lyme disease 17 years ago and has ask the Minister to talk to Public Health England suffered chronic fatigue, painful and stiff joints and about what it is doing to encourage greater public muscle and back pain since then. I watched it because awareness, looking particularly at organisations. The my partner had a major stroke seven years ago and he noble Lord, Lord Greaves, mentioned organisations has an assistance dog, so I know first hand how such as Ramblers; I would add the Duke of Edinburgh helpful and vital assistance dogs can be for people scheme, given the number of children going out into with disabilities in supporting their independence. It areas that might be affected. would be good if we could all see that DVD now It amazed me, when I was looking through the because it underlines the terrible cruelty of the disease fantastic pack that the Library has provided, to find for patients in the chronic state. Sue’s assistance dog is that there is the Big Tick campaign. I thought, “Fantastic! trained to wake her up in the morning because her Someone is doing something”—and it is the vets. They extreme fatigue means that she has no time awareness have a high-profile celebrity, Chris Packham; they of how long she has been sleeping; and, if she needs to have a very good website; and they have resources rest during the day, the assistance dog is trained to going out to the veterinary profession that are then keep an eye on her. It supports her in so many ways—by being cascaded down to pet owners, telling them all passing clothes to her for dressing, picking up the about the dangers. There is nothing with an equivalent phone and so on. It is very good to watch that DVD, status for parents. So while I applaud the work of which shows the impact this terrible disease can have. LDA, which does a good job on very limited charitable Noble Lords have commented on recent press coverage. resources, it is time, given the scale of this problem, One of the articles I read as background to this debate that we did more on this subject and had far better commented that, public awareness. “few diseases have aroused more emotional attention in the press and the public than Lyme disease”. 1.39 pm We saw this in the recent publicity, with the all main Baroness Wheeler (Lab): My Lords, I, too, welcome problems identified: the ongoing problems with diagnosis; the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in patients going to private clinics for tests or travelling securing this debate, which we hope will play a helpful abroad to seek tests not available in the UK, or desperately role in raising awareness and understanding about searching for countries with greater knowledge and Lyme disease and facilitate the real progress and action expertise on the disease than in the UK; and the firm that is obviously needed. Although we are talking conviction by patients that the disease can be transferred about a relatively small patient population, it is important from human to human despite the strong scientific to underline that cases of the disease have quadrupled evidence so far that it cannot. These patients all felt over the past 12 years, taking into account the latest that treatment for the disease had not worked for them NHS data and the fact that, as we have heard, many and that is important. The major themes of this cases are not formally diagnosed or clear up without debate are about the overwhelming need for more data any treatment. It has been a comprehensive and expert and research and I look forward to the Minister’s debate and I look forward to the response from the response on that. Minister on the number of issues that have been On the issue of guidance for UK health professionals, raised. I do not intend to repeat them. I understand that there is a general acceptance by both I also pay tribute to the work of Lyme Disease PHE and LDA of a need for guidance for health Action. Its developing work and improving relationship professionals covering secondary care in particular. with the Department of Health and Public Health What discussions has the Department of Health had England is a sign of hope for the future and is to be with PHE and NICE on this and can the Minister welcomed and commended, as is its partnership with commit to ensuring that a work programme and timetable the Royal College of General Practitioners in working for such guidelines is produced in the near future? on, for example, online training for GPs. In particular, I was interested to learn from someone who has a LDA’s help desk for patients and medics, helping to particular interest in the provision of specialised care—I document cases, including test information, talking to do not have time to say why—that paediatric Lyme laboratories about test results and offering GPs a disease is within the scope of specialised commissioning conversation with the medical director, has led to the whereas adult Lyme disease appears not to be. Can the successful treatment of patients. Surely it is a model Minister shed any light on the background and reasoning that needs to be taken forward across the NHS as it behind this situation and agree to look into the matter? uses the expertise and knowledge built up by the LDA over many years and, if more widely adopted, would go some way towards addressing the lack of awareness 1.44 pm about Lyme disease among many GPs and hospital The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department doctors. of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con): My Lords, I As we have heard, early treatment of Lyme disease echo other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, is almost always successful but the best treatment in Lord Greaves, for raising this important issue. I, too, late-diagnosed cases is unknown and the resulting have read a lot in the media over the past two or three GC 37 Lyme Disease[22 OCTOBER 2015] Lyme Disease GC 38 weeks; that has been good in raising awareness of the a helpline for doctors, as well as running GP training whole issue, and I hope that this debate today will also days. Specialist doctors have access to the literature on do so. A big theme in the contributions from noble Lyme disease and are trained in the recognition and Lords has been the need to raise awareness, not just management of the disease within their higher professional with the public but with GPs and clinicians. training and continuous professional development. I seem to be almost the only person in this room There is clearly much more that we can and should do who has not had—if I may put it this way—a head-to- in raising awareness. Of course, one of the difficulties head relationship with a tick, but I can imagine that it is that many GPs never—or very rarely—come across was not a happy occasion for the noble Lord, Lord a case of Lyme disease. Nevertheless, we can and must Greaves, or for others. do more to raise awareness. That is possibly the most The briefing by the Lyme Disease Action group important thing that we should be doing. was excellent. It was measured, well-informed and Public Health England has a long and distinguished very constructive, so I thank the group. Secondly, I history of diagnosing infectious disease and developing know that Dr Tim Brooks, the head of the Rare and tests for this purpose. A key principle is that the test Imported Pathogens Laboratory at PHE at Porton should be able to recognise true cases of the disease Down, is very happy to meet with noble Lords or and distinguish it from other conditions that might others who are interested outside the Chamber to cause the same symptoms. discuss this in more detail. In Lyme disease, current tests rely on finding the I would like to deal with two issues before I talk organism, which is rarely present in the blood and so it more generally about the importance of awareness, would be looked for in tissue samples taken by a treatment and research. First, the noble Lord, Lord biopsy. This is impractical in general practice and, of Greaves, raised the issue of a national inquiry. I do not course, not popular with patients. Rather than finding think that we will go down that route at this stage. the organism, looking for the antibody response is the Secondly, on the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord most productive diagnosis. The body produces the Patel, about the NICE guidelines on how early we antibodies as it tries to clear the infection. If a patient should start treatment with antibiotics, I will take that is treated early, there will be insufficient antibodies in up separately with NICE. the blood so the test will also be negative. Tests taken We recognise that Lyme disease is overwhelmingly early in infection, before enough antibodies have been the most important tick-borne infection in the UK, made, also will be negative. Therefore, doctors should and we are aware that its incidence has risen severalfold be aware that if symptoms persist a second sample over the past couple of decades. Even so, the UK has a should be taken at a later date when the antibodies much lower incidence of tick-borne diseases than the have developed. rest of Europe or North America—indeed, I believe it was in Lyme in New England where it was originally There is a routine test used by PHE of a commercial discovered. Many of the more deadly diseases do not product used by many other national laboratories occur here at all. However, as noble Lords have mentioned, across Europe. Through an international, external, Lyme disease can be acquired almost across the country quality assurance scheme, the performance of these now—in Richmond Park or in North Yorkshire. tests is compared regularly against more than 70 other Therefore, it is important that doctors across the country state laboratories in Europe and meets the current can recognise the features of these diseases even if the high standard. Tests used by private laboratories may patient lives in an area not hitherto associated with not be subjected to the same rigorous quality control Lyme disease. and I think this is an important issue that has been I will talk first about public awareness, an issue that obscured in some of the reporting by the media. There all noble Lords have raised, particularly the noble is no requirement for these labs to demonstrate the Baroness, Lady Parminter; she described her daughter evidence base for their test and some tests inevitably going off on a Duke of Edinburgh’s Award trip, which will give a very high rate of false positive results. This is a good illustration of the need for public awareness. is why some GPs and infectious disease specialists To raise awareness among the public, the first line of frequently will not accept test results from independent attack should be on the tick. Public Health England is laboratories because they wish to avoid unnecessary working with Liverpool University and others to survey or inappropriate treatment. Of course, I can totally tick populations and the organisms they host to determine understand how frustrating and upsetting that is for risk areas across the UK. PHE, the charity Lyme individual patients. PHE recognises limitations in the Disease Action and various local councils and national present tests, especially in early disease and in the park authorities produce public information leaflets subset of complicated cases, and is working with national on how people can protect themselves against tick and international partners to develop and evaluate bites and on what to do after a tick bite. Noble Lords new testing methods. It is a complex disease, it is a might like to look on NHS Choices, for example, difficult disease and I do not think we will be doing where they can see what a tick bite looks like, and if ourselves any favours if we try to oversimplify it. anyone would like any materials on this horrible disease, Turning to treatment, oral antibiotics are the mainstay I would be very happy to distribute them later. of treatment for Lyme disease and are successful in the Early diagnosis and treatment of Lyme disease is majority of cases. Of course, the earlier that the bite or the best way of limiting complications once a patient disease is treated, by and large, the better. However, it has been infected. GPs are, of course, at the front line is becoming increasingly apparent that in complicated of this. NICE and Lyme Disease Action produce disease, especially where there are significant neurological guidance and training modules for GPs, and PHE has symptoms, more than one course of antibiotics may GC 39 Lyme Disease[LORDS] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 40

[LORD PRIOR OF BRAMPTON] 1.56 pm be needed and a course of intravenous antibiotics may sometimes be indicated. PHE has published a referral Sitting suspended. pathway for GPs to follow to ensure that problem cases are seen by appropriate NHS specialists. Some patients suffer debilitating illness with symptoms Universal Declaration on Human Rights: that persist after treatment for several months or Article 18 longer. What therapy is appropriate for these patients Question for Short Debate depends on whether symptoms are a function of persisting pathogen or a legacy of damage that the pathogen has 2pm left behind. More research is needed to identify the basis of these persistent symptoms and define effective Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool treatments. As the symptoms may be non-specific, a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps key part of management is a careful investigation to they are taking, if any, to promote Article 18 of the ensure that other serious conditions are limited. I am 1948 Universal Declaration on Human Rights. reminded by a question this week in the House of Lords about post-polio syndrome. It seemed to raise very similar issues. Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, today’s short debate enables us to return to issues raised on 24 Patients need to have access to physicians with an July, when we last debated Article 18. I am grateful to interest in Lyme disease. Since the disease can be all noble Lords for participating, and especially to the present in many different ways and can be confused noble Baroness who will reply. with other more life-threatening conditions, in future this could be best done by establishing a network of The gravity of the situation is underlined by events interested NHS practitioners across the country with over the last few days. Following the beheading of a multidisciplinary experience. This issue was raised by group of Eritrean Christians and the execution of a number of noble Lords and clearly is important. Assyrian Christians, last weekend Islamic State in On research, PHE has a long track record in infectious Libya released a video showing the beheading of a disease research both through its laboratories at Porton Christian from South Sudan. That ideological hatred Down and in partnership with universities and of difference is driving on a systematic campaign of international groups. This provides PHE with deep deportation and exodus, degrading treatment, including background knowledge and specific expertise and sexual violence, enslavement, barbaric executions, and techniques. With the University of Liverpool, PHE is attempts to destroy all history and culture and beliefs looking at new markers of Lyme disease infection and that are not their own. Pope Francis has described this is supplemented by work in the Czech Republic to these events as a genocide of Christians, and many evaluate potential test methods at different stages of others of course suffer too. disease by accessing a large clinic with a high throughput At last week’s launch of Persecuted and Forgotten?, of Lyme patients. PHE is also exploring new concepts a report by the charity Aid to the Church in Need, on for both diagnosis and treatment through its relationships whose board I serve, we heard from the Archbishop of in the United States. Having a network of interested Aleppo. We learnt of other executions on 6 October in professionals across the country will enable further a village outside Aleppo, including a 12 year-old child. clinical studies to be undertaken if funding can be When his father refused to renounce his faith, ISIS secured. Funding is clearly going to be extremely tight tortured the child, with two other Christians, and within the NHS. If we could secure funding from crucified them to death. In an attempt to force his private sources as well, that would be a very sensible father to convert, the boy had his fingertips cut off. way forward. Their bodies were left hanging on crosses for two days This has been a very good debate. Just having the under signs reading “Infidels”. If that is not genocide, debate itself helps raise public awareness. A lot is what is? being done but clearly there is a lot more that needs to In the same week, another 20 people were killed for be done. I reiterate the offer from PHE that if noble refusing to convert to Islam, including two women. Lords would like a more detailed discussion with it, The 29 year-old and 33 year-old women were first perhaps along the same lines as the discussion the brutally raped. Eight of the captives were beheaded. noble Countess, Lady Mar, had at Porton Down with That is of a piece with the violent assault on the members of Lyme Disease Action, we are very happy Yazidis. A former Yazidi MP told parliamentarians to organise that. that 3,000 Yazidi girls are still in Daesh hands, suffering rape and abuse. She said: Lord Greaves: Before the Minister sits down, will he “The Yazidi people are going through mass murder. The comment on the suggestion that the pressure on the objective is their annihilation ... 500 young children have been captured, being trained as killing machines, to fight their own small charity LDA to provide help and advice in people. This is a genocide and the international community individual cases might be lessened by some sort of should say so”. regional organisation: clinics, groups of GPs or whatever? In a message read out at the launch of that report, the Prime Minister, the right honourable David Cameron Lord Prior of Brampton: I think I mentioned that MP, said: the intention is to have people with specialist knowledge “No believer should have to live in fear … Now is not the time of Lyme disease around the country. We feel that that for silence. We must stand together and fight for a world where no would be a better approach than having a single centre. one is persecuted because of what they believe”. GC 41 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[22 OCTOBER 2015] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 42

And outright persecution there is. Since the beginning year to Pakistan—£1.17 billion since 2011—being used? of the war in Syria, it is estimated that the number of Is it used to leverage fundamental Article 18 reforms Christians has fallen from about 1.5 million in 2003 to or to help those who are persecuted? A mob of 1,200 maybe fewer than 200,000 today. This is a genocide people in Pakistan recently forced two children to that dares not speak its name, and I ask the Minister watch as their Christian parents were burned alive. when our Government will join with Pope Francis and Pakistan has imposed a death penalty on a mother of others and name it for what it is. Either there is a five, Asia Bibi, for so-called blasphemy; it has still not genocide under way or there is not; either there is brought to justice the murderers of Shahbaz Bhatti, worldwide persecution of Christians or there is not; the country’s Minister for Minorities; and it is a country either someone is being killed, imprisoned or tortured where churchgoers have been murdered in their pews every few minutes for reasons of faith or belief, or they and different minorities—Shias, Ahmadis and are not. If we accept the evidence that they are, why Christians—have experienced discrimination and outright are the resources which we devote to these issues, and persecution. While Pakistan has been receiving vast the priority which we give them, so pitifully inadequate? sums of money, the response of the state has been at In our debate in July, I was critical of the Foreign best indifference, and at worst, the complicity of some Office’s failure to increase the one full-time desk officer of its agencies. wholly dedicated to freedom of religion or belief. In September, after visiting Burmese refugee camps Since then I have been troubled by exchanges in the I went to the detention centre in Bangkok, a city which House of Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee the UNHCR says more than 11,900 Pakistani Christians about the importance that the Foreign Office attaches have fled to. Over two days, I took evidence from to human rights. Sir Simon McDonald, Permanent escapees. One witness recounted how his friend Basil, Under-Secretary at the Foreign and Commonwealth a pastor’s son, was targeted by Islamists attempting to Office, was reported as saying that “although it”—that convert him. After Basil reminded them that there is, human rights— should be no compulsion in religion, they set fire to “is one of the things we follow, it is not one of our top priorities”, his home, and he, his wife and daughter, aged 18 adding that, months, were burned alive. Following their deaths the assailants turned their attention to his friend, who was “right now the prosperity agenda is further up the list”, attacked and beaten. After reporting this to the police, a remark which Crispin Blunt MP, the committee’s instead of protecting him and bringing to justice those chairman, rightly said would cause concern. who had been responsible for those deaths, the police That worrying exchange comes on the back of the informed the assailants, who told him they would kill Foreign Secretary’s admission that the department’s him. He, his wife and his little girl fled the country annual human rights report is being drastically cut and, after arriving in Thailand in 2014, applied for back. The prosperity agenda and the lives and asylum. They have been told by the UNHCR that they fundamental freedoms of people must never be part of will be interviewed in 2018. It could then be a further a cynical trade-off. In former times, that sort of thinking two years before they are resettled. Only 400 cases justified the commercial interests of the slave trade have been processed so far this year. This is an intolerable and the opium wars. delay. Meanwhile, he and his wife and child live in fear of being arrested and incarcerated in the detention Two days ago, I chaired a hearing on Eritrea. facilities, where they would be separated into segregated Witnesses cited a United Nations report which concludes cells, sharing a space of 18 feet by 36 feet with up to that the Afwerki regime’s tyranny probably constitutes 100 other prisoners, including children. Witnesses told “crimes against humanity”. We were told of deaths, me that detainees have devised a rota to enable half torture, arbitrary detentions, enforced disappearances, the inmates in these cells to sleep at night and the indefinite military conscription, forced labour and, as other half to sleep by day. As one witness told me: we heard on Tuesday, persecution of religious believers. The country’s population is haemorrhaging as those “We just lie side by side, including our children … force-fed poultry in battery farms are treated better and in more humane who are able to do so try to escape. conditions than these”. Every month up to 5,000 people leave Eritrea. This is an international scandal. More than 350,000 have done so so far—around 10% of the entire population. Forty-six per cent of those When I met the UNHCR, staff quoted British who try to make the perilous Mediterranean crossing Home Office guidance that asylum claims cannot be from Libya come from either Eritrea or Syria. Therefore, accelerated because escapees were subject to discrimination, unless we tackle the root causes of the exodus, including not persecution. However, on 11 September, the Minister fearful violations of Article 18, we are never going to of State for International Development, Desmond Swayne, see an end to the refugee crisis. I will just say in said in a parliamentary reply: parenthesis that many of those who have tried to “The Government of Pakistan has publically recognised the escape are outside refugee camps, which I hope we will problems facing minorities, and the need to bring an end to take into account in selecting refugees for resettlement. religious persecution”. Article 18 and human rights violations are inextricably Mr Swayne is right: there is outright persecution. So linked to the catastrophic movement of populations, why does the Home Office guidance, Pakistan: Christians to refugee policies and to issues such as the development and Christian Converts, state that, aid that Governments such as our own pursue. How is “the evidence does not indicate that Christians are, in general, the European Union aid package of $300 million to subject to a real risk of persecution or inhuman or degrading the Eritrean regime or the £405 million of UK aid this treatment”? GC 43 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[LORDS] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 44

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] Christian religion are suffering extreme persecution The All-Party Parliamentary Group on International has risen to 10. In one of those countries, Eritrea, it is Freedom of Religion or Belief will hold two days of estimated that in 2013 a total of up to 3,000 people, hearings on Pakistan on 10 and 11 November, and the majority of them Christians, were imprisoned for Dr Paul Bhatti, the brother of the assassinated government their religious beliefs. In Pakistan, the blasphemy laws Minister, will address Members of both Houses on often have adverse consequences for religious minorities. 17 November. I hope that the officials who drafted the In Nigeria last year, around 276 girls were kidnapped Home Office guidance will attend, and will agree with from their school in Chibok by Boko Haram, and it is Mr Swayne to accurately describe events in Pakistan reported that many of them have been forced to convert as persecution. to Islam. In a message at the launch of the report, the Finally, there was another event in Westminster this Prime Minister said: week. On Tuesday, while the President of China addressed “Now is not the time for silence. We must stand together and both Houses of Parliament, in Zhejiang province alone fight for a world where no one is persecuted because of what they more than 1,500 churches were having their crosses believe”. forcibly removed by the authorities. The noble Baroness, In view of the shocking statistics on religious Lady Anelay, has just answered a Question on the persecution and the levels of human suffering they Floor of the House about the brave human rights indicate, is it not time for the British Government to lawyers who have been at the forefront of trying to examine how they can take stronger measures to support defend many of those who have been persecuted. those who are being persecuted for practising their Some 280 rights lawyers have been detained or disappeared faith? Religious liberty is a universal human right, and in China since 9 July. The lesson for China is that democratic Governments who believe in the rule of without freedom of conscience and freedom of belief, law should have the moral courage to raise the issue no society will prosper and there can never be harmony. wherever such rights are flagrantly abused in breach of There is a direct correlation between those countries the UN charter. If the West can impose sanctions on which are the most prosperous and those which uphold Russia over its Government’s aggressive actions in freedom of religion and belief. This is a lesson for us, eastern Ukraine, could not overseas aid, or rather the too. Article 18 is a core value which is being systematically loss of it, be used to bring pressure to bear for a attacked and it is our duty as parliamentarians in this change of policy? Where a country’s Government are great democracy to say so. behaving intolerably, and the Government are turning a blind eye, we should act in a principled way and, 2.10 pm where necessary, consider withholding aid. Our overseas aid budget was £11.7 billion last year. Can the Minister Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con): My Lords, the assure us today that with the provision of bilateral aid, noble Lord, Lord Alton, is an extremely doughty the Government will insist that the Governments of campaigner on behalf of freedom of worship throughout the countries concerned should show a definite the world and it is a privilege to follow him today. He commitment to freedom of worship? may even be aware that it was Queen Elizabeth I who in 1558 famously declared that she had no desire to The noble Lord, Lord Alton, who instigated this open “windows into men’s souls”. It sounded like a debate, and others have called in the past for the magnanimous promise of tolerance and religious freedom Government to establish the position of a high-profile after the persecution presided over by her predecessor. international ambassador for religious freedom. Previously, Sadly, however, events made her tolerance wear thin the Government have said that our Ministers and by the end of her reign. Now, some 450 years later, ambassadors are sufficiently active in promoting freedom men and women in many countries continue to suffer of religion and belief. Can the Minister tell us why the terribly as a result of their deepest-held religious Government are not adopting a bolder stance, as the convictions. Windows are still being opened into people’s United States of America and Canada have? The US souls, often with brutal consequences and a shocking Congress has passed the necessary legislation and disregard for freedom of conscience. Canada has already appointed a religious freedom The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted envoy. by the United Nations in 1948, urged nations to My time is up. I will just say, finally, that we must guarantee freedom of thought, conscience and religion. redouble our efforts to raise this matter higher up the Organisations who now have experts in this field agree agenda of democratic Governments around the world. that attacks on religious freedom have increased in I look forward to the Minister’s reply. recent years. Christians have been caught up in the revolutionary turmoil which has swept through many countries in north Africa and the Middle East in the 2.15 pm last few years, and they have suffered especially as a Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD): My Lords, first, I result of the murderous extreme groups such as ISIL, express my appreciation to my very good friend of and Boko Haram and al-Shabaab in Africa, which kill many years’ standing, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for Muslims as well as Christians. The great Sunni/Shia initiating this debate. To be rather more home-based, I divide is another source of persecution, and there are remember that when I was a child, we used to say in warnings that those of the Jewish faith are facing a school, “Sticks and stones can break my bones, but fresh surge of anti-Semitism. names will never hurt me”. The truth of course is that It is shocking that only last week the Catholic names can hurt and can lead to abusive and destructive charity, Aid to the Church in Need, reported that the actions. We should take great care what we say in our number of countries in which those who practise the speeches—not only the content but the tenor and the GC 45 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[22 OCTOBER 2015] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 46 tone of our voices. It is difficult to hide behind the Last week, suicide bombings on the outskirts of words that are expressed. I suggest that even Home Maiduguri in Borno state targeted two mosques, with Secretaries, sometimes, could think about what they at least 39 Muslims killed. When I and my colleagues are saying and the effect it will have, especially on from my NGO, HART, visited the area, we learned vulnerable and sensitive people or on those who are in that the scale of slaughter and abduction far exceeds uncertain situations. The press, too, can sow seeds of that reported by the media. For example, the horrific anxiety in pursuing its own agenda. Think of Germany plight of the Chibok girls, already mentioned by the in the 1930s and the papers, and the daubing on the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk, is internationally known, windows of shops: “Jews out”. That led to Kristallnacht but the fate of more than 1,000 women and girls taken and the Holocaust. Words can break our bones—millions by Boko Haram—which also abducts and forcibly and millions of bones. recruits boys as young as 12 years old—is not. Christian Of course, the first need is to respect those who communities have been subject to regular attacks for differ from us and to not make scapegoats of them, for decades in northern Nigeria, but these have escalated any reason whatever. Sometimes we or others might with the rise of Boko Haram. A reign of terror persists do this to further a religious cause or to advance our there, as described powerfully last week by Victoria electoral or political prospects. We should avoid doing Yohanna, who herself escaped from Boko Haram. anything that causes people to lose their respect and I turn briefly to Azerbaijan, which has been classified dignity or that is a step towards them not achieving as “not free” by Freedom House. The Government their potential. A massive step forward is how we there restrict the religious practices of most non-Shia teach our children. We can teach them, when they are Muslim communities. Leaders of unsanctioned religious in schools, churches, mosques and so on, to respect services have been imprisoned, and many mosques one another. and Muslim schools have been closed. Churches must A subject that is causing a great deal of controversy be registered, but none have been able to do so since and leading to a great deal of bitterness at the moment January 2010. Those gathering to study religion have is immigration. Some of our newspapers especially are been jailed and some deported. A junior State Committee guilty of not always quite telling the truth. We have to official has claimed: look at that. When they talk about “swamping” Britain “We forbid religious books—but this isn’t religious discrimination”. with asylum seekers, the truth is that of the EU Police raids of Muslim prayer and study meetings countries, Britain stands 10th when it comes to the continue. A raid of a home in September 2015 left number of asylum seekers per head of population. 85 people taken for questioning, 3,000 religious books You have to present facts that are real and true and confiscated and two Turkish scholars deported. On can be respected. The Association of Chief Police 7 October this year, five Sunni Muslims were jailed Officers has stated that, following their arrest during a raid of an Islamic study “ill-informed, adverse media coverage … has contributed to meeting. Their lawyers were not allowed to attend the heightened local tensions and resentment of asylum seekers”. final hearing. What representations have Her Majesty’s However, when the facts are presented positively, that Government made to the Governments of Nigeria can increase the respect that communities have towards and Azerbaijan concerning these serious assaults on one another and reduce tensions before they come to freedom of religion and belief? the breaking-bones stage. We should imagine what we could do. I suggest to 2.21 pm the Minister that we could try to include the facts on immigration and emigration in the school curriculum, The Lord Bishop of Coventry: My Lords, I, too, am in the history or geography classes, so that people very grateful for this debate. I will focus my comments know what is happening. When that happens, people on the interface between religion and national identity, will be able to think, “This is the truth; this is something and the theological and political dangers of too close we can rely upon”, instead of having to rely upon an alignment between them. Too often, the abuse of stories that are often exaggerated or totally unhelpful. religious freedom arises from a false collusion between To reduce tensions we must stop shouting the names religion and national loyalty. We saw it once in our before we start breaking the bones. own land and, yes, in my own church. We see it now in the “gozinesh” criterion for state employment in Iran, in the treatment of the Rohingya in Myanmar, and in Baroness Mobarik (Con): I just remind the Committee the actions of the so-called Orthodox Army in the that we would be grateful if noble Lords could adhere Donbass region of Ukraine. to the three minutes. Religions, which at their best seek to serve all humanity, find themselves yoked to a form of patriotism 2.19 pm that is insecure and sees minorities as the enemy Baroness Cox (CB): My Lords, I warmly congratulate within. Religious leaders go from trying to influence my noble friend on this important debate and his their society responsibly to denying that others have a powerful introduction. I will focus on the violations of place within it. In the worst of cases, the great faiths religious freedom in two countries largely ignored by become like ploughshares beaten into swords, with international media but in need of urgent attention. In their messages of life betrayed and turned into instruments northern Nigeria, attacks on those who do not adhere of death and persecution. Such a toxic mixture of the to Boko Haram’s ideology occur almost daily. Since abuse of theology and the rejection of human rights October 2014, nearly 4,000 people have been killed will only be defeated by the combined efforts of secular and around 2.2 million internally displaced. and religious leaders. For this end, the Inter-Religious GC 47 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[LORDS] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 48

[THE LORD BISHOP OF COVENTRY] values in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has Platform for Article 18, IRP18, was launched in June. not downgraded the importance of freedom of religion It brings together religious leaders from various faiths or belief. and serves as a catalyst for these religious leaders to It is vital that the plight of persecuted Muslim campaign together for global religious freedom. It is minorities around the world is not neglected. While deficient both theologically and practically for religious the Foreign Secretary said on Tuesday in the other leaders to speak for the persecuted from their own place that he does not expect the Shia Muslim Ali religions alone. All faiths must defend all faiths. If one al-Nimr, a juvenile, to be executed, is the Minister faith does not have the freedom to worship, no believer concerned about the recent spate of killings of Shia can feel secure. Muslims in eastern Saudi Arabia? Although perpetrated The aim is not for all religions to see each other as by people linked to IS, could the Minister undertake equally true. This would be unachievable. Nevertheless, to investigate allegations that Saudi government clerics as the Dalai Lama recently noted, there is now a are calling Shia Muslims infidels on TV stations such special responsibility for religious leaders to affirm the as Wesal, and specifically investigate to confirm that place of the other as the other. This principle can unite these stations are not being broadcast here in the UK? people from all faiths and beliefs while maintaining The international headquarters of the Ahmadi Muslims theological integrity. Our goal is to unite not only is here in the UK. It was such a relief that last month’s individuals but religious communities and networks suspected arson attack on the Baitul Futuh mosque in that extend across the world. The efforts of IRP18 and Morden took place while it was unoccupied. However, other such organisations mirror in a very small way the many of the claims for asylum here in the UK are good work of the International Panel of Parliamentarians from Ahmadi Muslims fleeing persecution in Pakistan. for Freedom of Religion or Belief in connecting political This Commonwealth country is going through much leaders. Both political and religious groups need to act communal tension and violence, often in the name of together if we are to convince the persecutors that religion. For a Commonwealth country to deny the their actions serve neither their faith nor their nation. right to vote unless Ahmadis declare that they are I conclude by asking the Minister what the non-Muslim is unacceptable. I would be grateful if the Government’s assessment is of the role that interreligious Minister could look at raising this at the forthcoming initiatives can play in strengthening the commitment Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in to Article 18. What steps might the Government take Malta. to support and foster more such initiatives? Does she agree with me that, in a way unparalleled in other human rights issues, public policy on freedom of religion 2.27 pm or belief is intrinsically linked to theological Lord Harrison (Lab): My Lords, four times this understanding? year writers and bloggers variously identified as humanists, atheists or freethinkers have been murdered in gruesome 2.24 pm machete attacks in Bangladesh: Avijit Roy, the popular Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, I thank the science author, who was hacked down outside the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing this debate. I am renowned international book fair; Washiqur Rahman, particularly grateful for his advisory board membership whose satirical blog identified the many topics on on the University of Birmingham’s recently launched which Islamist extremists demand silence on pain of Commonwealth initiative on freedom of religion or death; and, most recently, Niladri Chatterjee, the organiser belief, which I co-direct and declare as an interest. I of a local science and rationalists’ association, who shall begin with a quote: had posted on Facebook aligning himself with atheists and sceptics of religion, and who was killed in his own “free to practise a faith or to decide not to follow any faith at all. We are free to build our own churches, synagogues … and home by intruders who locked his wife on the balcony mosques and to worship freely”. while they butchered him. We pay tribute to them for No, this is not from the FCO human rights report but their courage and for standing for what they believe in, from this week’s Home Office counterextremism strategy. but I am shocked that the Bangladeshi authorities In this global village, what is happening overseas may have brought no suspect to trial. Meanwhile, astonishingly, be connected to our domestic context, and the question, the Bangladeshi police and government officials have “Does religion influence human beings to commit threatened to arrest other secular bloggers under the violence?”, has to be tackled by Governments, not just ICT Act, presumptuously declaring that their output students writing essays. The UN special rapporteur, is hateful, a move that surviving Bangla secularists Dr Heiner Bielefeldt, has said: and human rights groups have called a victim-blaming mentality. “The relevance of the issue with respect to freedom of religion or belief is obvious since violence in the name of religion is a Article 18 pertains to thought, conscience and religion source of many of the most extreme violations of this human or belief. This right is unstintingly and unapologetically right”. clear that political thought includes both the expression The Department for Education has announced that of religious devotion and the voicing of objections to human rights are to be added to the school curriculum religious institutions, religious leaders and religious in the UK. I would be grateful to hear from the beliefs and practices. We must be clear that Article 18 Minister how freedom of religion or belief is featuring applies to everyone, whether religious, humanist, atheist as part of that change. With this domestic background, or, indeed, simply secular. What are the Government I am sure that the Minister will be reassuring this doing to present and champion to the world the full House that a change from specific priorities to thematic understanding of Article 18 as it was intended and as GC 49 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[22 OCTOBER 2015] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 50 the international human rights consensus understands? 2.33 pm What are the Government doing to protect atheists Lord Hylton (CB): My Lords, this debate is timely such as Alexander Aan in Indonesia, liberals such as because the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Raif Badawi in Saudi Arabia and humanists such as Europe recently recognised how churches and faiths Avijit Roy in Bangladesh? contribute to peace and human solidarity. It called on Finally, we must be sure that we too in our daily Governments to protect freedom of religion. I trust lives do not discriminate against atheists. Why is it that that today’s debate will reinforce that appeal, which I the DCMS persistently refuses to allow on Remembrance commend to the Government. Day the Armed Forces Humanists Association from In March I was in Lebanon where more than 1 being represented? It is a disgrace and the Government million refugees from Syria had already been should take it up and do something about it. accommodated without using a single camp. I doubt 2.30 pm whether that would have been possible had Christians, Muslims and Druze not shared common traditions of Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve (CB): My Lords, I welcome and hospitality for their neighbours in distress. intended today to speak in the debate of the noble In May, with church leaders, I visited the Kurdistan Lord, Lord Farmer, on palliative care but a rather Regional Government. In the capital, Erbil, and near happy slip of the cursor entered my name for this the city of Dohuc, many people displaced from Mosul debate—fortunate, because the topic of the debate of and Nineveh were being cared for. I went on to the the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is of the utmost importance Jazira canton of north-east Syria. It had already taken and because I shall have the opportunity to speak on in many people from other parts of Syria. In the late palliative care in the debate on the Private Member’s summer last year, it received even more people fleeing Bill of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, tomorrow. I ISIS/Daesh attacks. Once again, I urge the Government declare interests relevant to this debate, both as chair to visit Jazira and the other two cantons, which they of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and have so far refused to do. on account of publishing and lecturing on this and other rights. Of those driving Iraqis and Syrians from their homes, ISIS/Daesh has been the most fanatical. Its There is a great deal of confusion about Article 18 true believers include some seeking an austere and rights in the United Kingdom at present. This is not ethical life, but it also attracts some psychopaths. A because the UK is a society in which there is flagrant combination of idealists and thugs is dynamic and violation of this right. We do not criminalise apostasy dangerous as well as being totally intolerant. Military and we are, in the main, a tolerant society. However, means alone will not be enough to defeat ISIS. Muslim confusion has arisen about the proper interpretation minds must be won over by showing that better ideas of the phrase “religion or belief” from a number of can work in practice. I am glad to note that the cases in the lower courts dealing, it must be said, Catholic Church and many other churches, together mainly with employment issues. A central confusion is with Muslim and other groups, are now meeting the about the meaning to be given to the term “belief”. needs of refugees and the displaced. This is true all the On the one hand, courts have held: way from Calais and the Mediterranean to Baghdad. “A belief must be a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information”, Pope Francis and many other leaders have appealed for practical help and for the resettlement of the most and on the other, that any belief that is to be protected vulnerable. These are all reasons why human rights by this right should, and religious freedoms must be upheld. “attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance”. Peter Edge and Lucy Vickers conclude in their 2.36 pm recent Review of Equality and Human Rights Law Relating to Religion and Belief that the, Lord Suri (Con): My Lords, my name was also “broad definition of belief currently being applied by the courts is destined for another other topic, on which I am speaking unclear, and some rulings appear inconsistent with others”. tomorrow. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights Their views are widely shared. It is puzzling to find is undoubtedly the most important document of the opposition to fox hunting classified by one tribunal as past 70 years. The four freedoms, and the associated a religion or belief, but support for fox hunting not rights they uphold, are a cornerstone of the liberal classified as a religion or belief. Things would be much democracy that has come to dominate Western politics. clearer if the courts noted that Article 18, like Article 9 We are here to discuss one of those freedoms: of the European convention, yokes religion and belief, freedom of religion, as enshrined in Article 18. This suggesting that the kinds of belief that count must be right, I am glad to say, is widely recognised and life orienting rather than bearing on a single aspect of respected in the UK. It can be possible to underplay life—a Weltanschauung rather than a specific political the importance of this right. It can seem somewhat or ethical position. More occasional or disjointed less salient when compared to the humanitarian necessity beliefs and their expression are properly protected by of freedom from fear and the lofty idealism of freedom rights to freedom of expression. I suggest that this of speech and expression, but it is one of the most troubling confusion about Article 18 rights in the UK precious liberties we have in our society. There is can be settled only by further legislation or—but it is something lacking about countries that do not allow probably too slow—by the accumulation of further freedom of religion or freedom to leave religion. In court decisions that do not simply point in contradictory religiously homogenous societies where religion is a directions. condition of citizenship, such as the Maldives, or those GC 51 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[LORDS] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 52

[LORD SURI] other ways of viewing religious faith. This question of where apostasy is punishable by death, such as Indonesia, how religious faiths are held and the way in which one loses the multicultural essence that has helped people think, whether they are religious or not, is drive on many societies. perhaps the most important one, because there can be Britain’s long history of religious tolerance, stretching atheistic fundamentalists just as much as religious all the way back to the 19th century, is codified in this fundamentalists. In many ways, those with different document and has helped to attract and nurture the religious faiths who hold their beliefs in a non- diversity that makes us stand out in the world. This fundamentalist way are often closer in understanding country has been actively welcoming towards my own than so-called coreligionists. The failure to understand Sikh community and has been extremely accommodating this and that fundamentalist ways of holding religious towards our beliefs. belief are not actually congruent with multifaith and Freedom of religion, when all is said and done, is multicultural societies means that we have, in many about the individual. If we believe in the primacy of ways, been much too tolerant of intolerance, including the individual, we believe in allowing such individuals among some of our allies. to exercise their judgment in choosing or, indeed, I want to finish by remarking on this question of rejecting their faith. If we believe in that, it is down to whether or not economic freedom is now regarded by us to allow them to make that decision knowing that the Government as more important than religious they will be safe making it and that the full force of the freedom. Our tolerance of the intolerance of our law exists to deter those who would seek to interfere economic partner, Saudi Arabia, led to massive amounts in it. of money going into fostering fundamentalism in the Islamic world, and the price we are paying is horrible. 2.40 pm Can the Minister tell us whether or not Her Majesty’s Government regard economic freedom as being of a Lord Alderdice (LD): My Lords, like other noble higher and more significant order than that of religious Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord freedom? Alton of Liverpool for bringing this debate to us and introducing it with his usual passion and eloquence as he spoke about the problem of religious intolerance 2.43 pm and intolerance of belief across the world. I am grateful, Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): I thank the noble too, as I am sure others are, for the slip of the cursor Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this timely, albeit that ensured the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of brief, debate. Sadly, many cases mentioned today and Bengarve, made a contribution. Indeed, I want to pick highlighted in the FCO’s Human Rights and Democracy up from her contribution where she spoke about the Report 2014 show the harsh reality of the world today. troubling confusion that seems to be around in the I have heard speculation that the annual report may UK about these matters. It seems that there is now a stop. I hope the Minister will be able to refute that by pervasive lack of knowledge and understanding of committing today to continue to publish it every year what religion is about. Indeed, the religious affairs for the rest of this Parliament. Countries that do not correspondent of the BBC said in one of the broadsheets respect religious freedom invariably do not respect some months ago that it would no longer be possible other basic human rights. That is why, as a humanist to successfully make a satire like Monty Python’s and a gay man, I share all of the concerns expressed “Life of Brian” because there are not enough people today. The Minister has said she wants the Government around now who understand what the satire was about. to focus more strongly on making freedom of religion That seems to me to be something of a condemnation or belief part of the answer to extremism across of the BBC, in that it has failed in that aspect of its government. The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, educative mandate and to ensure that people do mentioned the Home Office counterextremism strategy. understand the importance of these matters. But the How will this link up with FCO activities? Will it result has been that many in the establishment—our involve further engagement with Saudi Arabia, whose universities, our Government and our Civil Service—do record on human rights and religious freedom, as we not really understand what religious faith is about and have heard in the debate, is absolutely appalling? I do what it means. They then lack sympathy for these not understand how it will counter extremism. matters, so that freedom of religion is relegated much I am also grateful to the Minister for repeating the further down the pecking order than freedom of many Statement in the Chamber today. The Chinese state other principles, orientations or interests. It is not visit this week gives us an opportunity to evaluate the considered as a serious matter by many of those in impact that our relationship has had on human rights authority. in China. The Prime Minister’s spokeswoman said Much of this is to do with a lack of understanding that developing a strong and engaged relationship, of the psychology of large groups and how they “means we are able to talk to them ... frankly and with mutual function and, in particular, of how groups think. For respect”. example, people will talk about all religions talking Yet the campaign group Human Rights Watch has about the same thing or having the same views. They documented, over the last three years, a rapid deterioration do not. That is just nonsense which can be maintained in human rights in China, as we also heard during the only by somebody who does not know anything much debate on the Statement. George Osborne said during about any of them. Religions are different and have his visit to China that he addressed the issue of human very different results in the lives of the people who rights privately, believe and follow them. However, there is another “in the context of also talking about issues like economic fundamental difference, between fundamentalism and development”. GC 53 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[22 OCTOBER 2015] Universal Declaration on Human Rights GC 54

Perhaps the Minister can tell us precisely what steps he clear to the Government. All this is why we fund took while in western China to raise the treatment of targeted projects and lobby on individual cases of the area’s minority Muslim community, which faces discrimination or persecution. restrictions on religious observance under the guise of Our second theme, making a strong contribution to anti-terrorism measures. Despite the importance of strengthening the rules-based international system, is the relationship with China, we must not shirk from why, in the United Nations, for example, we ensure raising human rights issues if it fails to adhere to that there are regular resolutions that focus on the full domestic and international law. definition of freedom of religion or belief, as set out in Article 18, rather than on the narrower focus on 2.45 pm religious intolerance as put forward in the parallel resolutions tabled by the Organisation of Islamic The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Cooperation. We also use the universal periodic review Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My Lords, to raise issues with individual countries. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on securing this debate and thank him for giving us another Under our third theme—human rights for a stable opportunity this year to debate an issue of crucial world—freedom of religion or belief is central to so importance not only to us but to the whole country. I much of what we do. In societies where freedom of take into account very much what the noble Lord, religion or belief is protected, and where discrimination Lord Alderdice, said. There is often a misunderstanding against others on the basis of their religion or belief is about the fact that religions are different and that we seen as unacceptable, it is much harder for extremist cannot treat them as all the same. It does not mean views to take root. Governments need to learn from that one is discriminating just because one is treating that lesson. In all our work, we continually make the people differently. I was particularly gripped by the case for freedom of religion or belief, and we implement words of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, when she it in practice through our project work. With regard to talked about confusion in the courts about the way aid, of course our aid relationship with any Government that they address belief. Those are matters that I is based on an assessment of their commitment to our would like to consider further. partnership principles, which include human rights. DfID and the FCO continue to raise the rights of This Government remain firmly committed to minorities at the highest levels of government. When promoting and protecting the right to freedom of we give aid, we feel we have a responsibility to see how religion or belief around the world. Under our new effectively the Government are able to deploy it. To strategic approach to human rights, we have refocused that end, we are funding a project to develop lesson our work around three new themes; I made some plans for primary school teachers in the Middle East reference to this on the Floor of the House a short that will help them to teach the values that are important. while ago when I answered the Urgent Question on I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of China. Our new approach will be set out in the annual Llandudno, on this. The key to success in all these report that will be published—as its very name is matters is education. We need to ensure that children “annual report”, I certainly expect it to continue to be appreciate from the earliest stage that for society to be just that. I appreciate that most people get hold of stable and fair, everyone must be valued equally, regardless these things online rather than in print, but we provide of their religion or belief or the fact that they have no access in various ways. belief. The three themes are: democratic values and the I mentioned a moment ago a project we are rule of law; strengthening the rules-based international undertaking in the Middle East. Speaking of that system; and human rights for a stable world. Our work area, I want to express the Government’s horror at the on freedom of religion or belief has an integral place attacks being carried out by ISIL against those who under each of them. Just a short while earlier in the do not acquiesce to its brutal ideology. It does not Chamber, I explained clearly that one needs to read discriminate. It has committed atrocities against Christians, the full transcript of the PUS’s exchange with the Yazidis, Muslims, Turkmen and others. I recently had Select Committee because it made very clear that the a meeting in New York with very brave Yazidis who work on freedom of religion or belief is integral to are trying to assist people in their communities. ISIL is what the Foreign Office does. It is embedded—as I was persecuting individuals and communities on the basis able to reassure one NGO, not buried but embedded—and of their religion, belief or ethnicity, and its murderous vibrant across the FCO. For example, only where campaign has resulted in the most appalling humanitarian freedom of religion or belief is protected can we crisis of our time. expect to see democratic values and the rule of law being fully implemented. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to the fact that some have called for this slaughter to be called To the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, I say very strongly genocide. As I have remarked on previous occasions, that freedom of religion or belief must include the UK support for international criminal justice and right to have no belief, or, indeed, to change one’s accountability is a fundamental aspect of our foreign religion, and we certainly make that clear. We are policy. The International Criminal Court plays the key shocked by the brutal murders of four secular bloggers role in entrenching the rule of law and acting as a in Bangladesh this year. The British Government have deterrent to atrocities, placing a spotlight on individual been unequivocal in their condemnation of those murders. responsibility, supporting victims and helping to establish There must be space for free speech in Bangladesh. an historical narrative of accountability. We will continue These incidents must stop, and we have made that to work through the ICC to take forward the important GC 55 Universal Declaration on Human Rights[LORDS] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 56

[BARONESS ANELAY OF ST JOHNS] represented and that we were able to provide support commitments made by PM Abadi to investigate all by offering a reception to delegates. On that note, I human rights abuses and violations. Those who seek commend the international work of my noble friend to block our efforts with regard to Syria—the Assad Lady Berridge on freedom of religion and belief. Government—will find that we will not give up; neither Thirdly, last month in Paris, we took part in the will we give up when Russia opposes us. French-led workshop on religious minorities in the I was also asked in particular about countering Middle East. We want to build on that work, and my violent extremism. The strategy was launched by the FCO colleague, Tobias Ellwood MP, and I will be Home Office, but we are already looking very carefully hosting a further workshop next month on the situation at how we work cross-departmentally, and I hope to facing Christians and other minorities in the Middle be able to give further information as we develop that East. It was part of our manifesto commitment to work. However, cross-departmental work is key to it. look specifically at Christians in the Middle East, and that is what we shall do. We are continuing to explore Lord Alton of Liverpool: Before the Minister leaves how we can work more closely together with our US that important passage of her speech, might I press counterparts—one example being taking part in a her further? Although I appreciate the work that she transatlantic dialogue in Washington earlier this month. has done with the International Criminal Court, and On a related matter, we have been working with she is of course right that upholding international law faith leaders from all communities to build a safer and falls within its remit, nothing stops a sovereign more secure world. I agree entirely with the right Government, such as that of the United Kingdom, reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry about the nevertheless saying that what is occurring is genocide, importance of inter-religious work. The critical role of which would place further pressure on the international faith leaders was brought home to me during my visit authorities and perhaps be a counterbalance to the two weeks ago to eastern DRC. I was honoured to be Russian veto in the Security Council. Will she reflect able to visit a UK-funded programme outside Goma, on that further? run by the NGO Tearfund, that works with local faith Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I will leaders to build community support groups for sexual certainly continue to reflect on that. There have been violence survivors. Importantly, the project draws on other occasions when people have asked us to refer to the influence of the faith leaders within their communities something as genocide where one can see brutality. We to challenge some of the attitudes to victims of sexual have always been very firm in ensuring that we follow violence and address the stigma many survivors face the path of saying that we accept as genocide what the after their attack. I pay heartfelt tribute to those local international judicial system determines as genocide, Anglican, Catholic and Muslim leaders who spoke but I would never refuse to reflect on the views of the with one voice about the importance of working together noble Lord, Lord Alton, as I have far too great respect in such difficult circumstances. for him. I was appalled this week to learn that there have We have recently launched a project promoting been further attacks by armed groups on two of the legal and social protection for freedom of religion or communities nearby which host Tearfund’s work. It belief in Iraq. This project aims to prevent intolerance brings it home to us when communities have once and violence towards religious communities by inspiring again been subject to rape, kidnap and assault. That key leaders in Iraqi society to become defenders of was in DRC, but we heard movingly from other noble freedom of religion or belief. The UK continues to Lords, such as the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, who encourage influential religious leaders in Iraq to speak spoke about Nigeria, where Boko Haram carries out out publicly and condemn sectarian violence. its horrific attacks. That must give us all the strength The best defence against radicalisation, the best to continue. It gives the Government the strength to guarantee of stability and sustainable growth the world argue the case to Governments around the world, over, is inclusive and accountable government. That without hesitation and without feeling that we are means government that guarantees the right of every inhibited by any economic relationship, because it is individual to follow the religion or belief of their the right thing to do. choice, or no belief, both in private and in public. It is a fundamental freedom that underpins many of the Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, the Minister others. Building inclusive, accountable government in referred to an annual human rights report. Can she at the Middle East is going to take some long time, but least ensure that an opportunity arises for noble Lords we are determined to stay the course. to debate that report in Government time? Since we last debated these matters in the summer, the Government have been working on a number of specific areas. I will mention one or two, but I want to Armed Forces: Reserves leave time to refer to matters raised by noble Lords. Question for Short Debate First, we have been working actively with our international partners to ensure that discussions about extremism take account of the role of religious repression as a 3pm motivator. Secondly, we strongly supported the meeting Asked by Lord Freeman of the International Panel of Parliamentarians for Freedom of Religion or Belief that took place last To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment month in New York at the United Nations General they have made of the present and future strength Assembly. I was delighted that this House was well of the reserves of the British Armed Forces. GC 57 Armed Forces: Reserves[22 OCTOBER 2015] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 58

Lord Freeman (Con): My Lords, in the interests of country, and the opportunity to do it in practice and noble Lords, who may not be able to hear me because reality is extremely important. That prospect is vital. I of my croaky throat, I shall keep my remarks reasonably understand that there has been some progress—I look short. I am sure the Deputy Chairman will appreciate forward to hearing from the Minister about this later— that that might allow a little more time for some of my towards meeting the target of 30,100 trained Army colleagues. I am pleased that my noble friend Lord reservists by 2020. Howe is to reply to this Question for Short Debate. In my judgment, there are three specific categories The Minister has been in place for only a short period of recruitment needs. First, we have to attract young of time, but I think that there is general agreement on officers, coming principally from universities or colleges both sides of the House that he has grasped his of further education, because they are there to lead portfolio with alacrity, calmness and a great deal of their men. Records—certainly over the past 10 years, courtesy. We look forward to his reply. to my knowledge—have shown great difficulty in There has been some very poor press over at least recruitment, particularly when the economy is growing. the past six months, and the House has been paying It is very important that we concentrate on that, close attention to recruitment levels in the Armed working in tandem with those in higher education Forces. Recruitment into the Reserve Forces has received institutions who share that view. Secondly, recruitment a bad press and has caused alarm among a number of figures from the medical profession are not brilliant at noble Lords on all sides who hold the strength of the the moment. In my limited experience, the medical Reserve Forces dearly. I hope very much indeed that, profession responds to a call for reserves if it understands to the extent that there is going to be some better news, the need and the threat. Nothing could be more dramatic the noble Earl will be kind enough to brief colleagues than the service of reservists and regulars in Sierra around the table, not only for the record but to instil a Leone during the Ebola outbreak. That is one example, greater degree of confidence in the press. but there are many others around the world where In 1986, I became a junior Minister, serving my those coming from a medical background to join the noble friend Lord Trefgarne, who was the Minister of reserves have a real contribution to make. Thirdly, on State and who is in his place today. I had responsibility ethnic minorities, we still have a lot more to do in for the Reserve Forces at that time. A little later when I persuading all the sections of our ethnic minorities in had left Parliament, Lord Younger, who was a very this country that it is a noble and worthwhile distinguished Secretary of State for Defence—I had demonstration of citizenship to join the reserves. the pleasure of serving twice in the ministry, partly The second factor is the prospect of deployment under his stewardship—who had also left, rang me up abroad. I think that as young men and women we all to ask me to come to see him. He was then in the enjoyed the prospect, at university or in higher education, private sector, so I went to very palatial premises. He of being able to travel abroad. That is particularly did not enter into a discussion; rather, he issued a very relevant for reserves. So I appreciate that we have had polite instruction, which was that he wanted me to deployment in Kabul in Afghanistan, Cyprus, Ukraine take over from him as president, in 1999, of the and the Falklands over the past 10 years—I may have Council of Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Associations. my figures slightly in error—but the thrust of that I served in that post for 12 years, and I pay tribute to deployment seems to have been working. I hope that my successor, my noble friend Lord De Mauley, who that opportunity will continue to encourage recruitment. has taken up that responsibility with great energy and When deployed, it is very important that the reservist enthusiasm. When I first became the president, the has the same kit, weapons and accoutrements as regular Army contingent of our Reserve Forces numbered soldiers, and there has to be proper training beforehand more than 50,000. I think that my noble friend Lord with the regulars so that they feel part of one combined Trefgarne is nodding his head in agreement with my armed force. recollection. The third factor is the recognition that the population at large sometime does not give to those who have Lord Trefgarne (Con): It was 83,000, actually. served in the reserves. According to the records that I have looked at, we have had 70 decorations for conflict Lord Freeman: That shows that my noble friend abroad over the past 10 years, I believe. That recognition had better mathematical training than me, but that is extremely important. Thirty-one reservists made the figure probably includes all the Reserve Forces. It was ultimate sacrifice and died in Iraq or Afghanistan. certainly a very much larger number than we have How many people, even in this great Parliament, would today. What we need in this different era, one in which be able to recognise that even that small, but real, we face different threats because they no longer come number had made that sacrifice? from the continent but from around the world, is I have taken heart, and I encourage others to read satisfactory size Reserve Forces—and in that I include the excellent report from General Brims, who was the Maritime Reserve and the Royal Air Force Reserve. chairman of the review. I shall paraphrase one quote However, I shall concentrate my brief remarks principally for reasons of brevity: General Brims’s excellent report on the Army. I believe that the strength of the Reserve came to the conclusion that solid progress was being Forces depends on a number of key factors, of which I made. His comment about the cultural disconnect will cover only three. However, there are many more to between regular and reserve components is important, which your Lordships may wish to refer in due course. and we have to do something about that. That is the The first factor is recruitment. Recruitment responds next challenge which we have to face. I look forward to to the prospect of deployment. It is a natural desire of the other contributions to be made by noble Lords, those joining any of the three reserves to serve the particularly the Minister. GC 59 Armed Forces: Reserves[LORDS] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 60

3.10 pm I concentrated relentlessly on retention and I did not worry about recruiting. In fact, I hated it when I was Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to my told to run an open day because my soldiers did not noble friend Lord Freeman for introducing this Question want to take part in an open day; they wanted to go for Short Debate. I have a couple of interests to and do something. I always concentrated on retention declare. First, General Brims was my divisional and at some points in my TA career I got in trouble commander in Iraq in 2003, so of course I have to say because I was over establishment. I had more people nice things about him, but there are plenty of nice than I was supposed to have. I was told to reduce the things to say. Secondly, I am still commissioned in the numbers and I said, “Which ones am I supposed to get TA, but this is my last year of service and I am no rid of, because they all turn up?”. longer training. We will have to concentrate on retention so that we I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, to his do not lose the recruits we have. During the Cold War position as opposition spokesman. He has of course days in BAOR, every so often there were massive been a Defence Minister in the past, so I suspect that exercises. In the run-up to those exercises no one he will be able to give my noble friend Lord Howe a would leave the TA because we knew we had a fabulously run for his money. interesting exercise to go on, but those days are gone. I still think that the plan for volunteer reserves is There are other ways in which we can damage retention, deeply flawed—in particular, in trying to suggest that including by not funding accommodation improvements. volunteer reservists will be identical to their regular I have some helpful questions for the Minister that I counterparts. They cannot be. They may be interchangeable know he will try to answer. and they can certainly be interoperable, but they are My final plea is about the scale of Exercise Saif never going to be the same. There is simply not enough Sareea. We need to have brigade deployment, not a time for training to get to that level of proficiency. The battle group, and we need to make sure that there are a problem is not with the actual role but with their wider lot of opportunities for the TA in that exercise. experience. For instance, before I was commissioned I was a recovery mechanic and I operated a heavy recovery vehicle. In fact, because of my civilian experience and 3.15 pm knowledge and everything else, I knew far more about Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD): My Lords, I, that recovery vehicle than my regular counterparts. I too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Freeman, for tabling had deep engineering experience and understanding of this Question for Short Debate. I do not come to this the vehicle. However, if I was asked to reliably identify as a former Defence Minister or as somebody who has a Soviet armoured fighting vehicle, I would not be able served in the reserves; I am very much a novice. I am to do so. A regular would be able to, because on a wet now on the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme. So Thursday afternoon he would not be able to go home far, I have only six days’ experience, so I am not until he could identify to his staff sergeant every single pretending to speak as somebody who has been involved, Soviet armoured fighting vehicle. Those in the TA do but over the years I have been involved in Liberal not have the time to do that. Democrat policy-making on defence. Somewhat like My noble friend Lord Freeman talked about the the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, we had concerns about problem of officers. It is a big problem, especially the reserves policy that was adopted after the last given that the average age of an Army Reserve officer strategic defence and security review, and in particular is about 44. That is far too old. Given contemporary we had questions about recruitment. employment patterns, I am not sure how the Minister It appears from debates we have had in the Chamber will be able to increase recruitment of the direct entry in the past few months that recruitment seems to have junior officers. Late entry officers are very good but, improved, but I want to look at three related issues on as soldiers put it, you need a proper Rupert. the medical side of things. I will draw, to some extent, We need to be careful about the term “trained on the RAF, so we will move away from the Army strength” when we look at the recruiting and strength briefly.The three things I want to touch on are recruitment figures, because they can be misleading. “Trained” medicals, the Defence Medical Services, and mental presumably means that the serviceman—the volunteer health and other provision for reserves. reservist—has passed their basic training and their In particular, recruitment medicals were touched basic trade course. In the case of a simple trade such on in the excellent report by the Reserve Forces’ and as a driver or the logistics corps, that is not much of a Cadets’ Associations. That came up on a visit where I problem. A REME vehicle mechanic in my own corps met a dozen recent reserve recruits who said, “If you has an “A” trade, which requires much more training, want to understand what we’re doing, you should be a but there is only the same amount of training time reserve”. They shared real frustration. Ten of the 12 of available—a few weekends and a two-week trade course. them said it had taken an inordinately long time to get It is not possible to make a proper vehicle mechanic in their medical appointment. There seems to be a bit of two weeks. A lot of work has been done in the REME a disconnect. If RAF bases have medical centres, to address this problem, and there is a need to be which they do, and those centres are able to do recruitment careful, as far as possible, to recruit civilians with medicals for regulars, why can they not do them for appropriate experience. Being trained or not trained is reservists as well? At the moment, medicals are out to not a binary condition. contract with Capita. It seems to take an inordinately We have better news on recruiting. There is time to long time to get appointments and there is a danger of meet the targets, but the problem will be retention. appointments being shifted. That sort of frustration When I had what I must say was a very small command, causes a real problem right at the start. There are GC 61 Armed Forces: Reserves[22 OCTOBER 2015] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 62 people who are enthusiastic about becoming reservists Despite our hope, which I know is very widely but they are told, “You can’t have that date”, and they shared, that employers consider it good and beneficial are messed around, but those people have other jobs as well as right and a source of pride to have reservists and do not necessarily have the time to be messed in the workforce, I would suggest that the reality is not around because Capita cannot schedule their always so encouraging. It has not been unknown in appointments. Could there not be some rationalisation the past for reservists to hide their military service, of the medical aspect of recruitment? using annual leave for training for instance, until The second issue was highlighted to me by the circumstances demanded disclosure when deployment BMA in an email yesterday and is also in the report. It occurred. Even today employers need help, with better is about the Defence Medical Services. At the moment, consideration of the challenges of timing and back-filling there is undermanning of the regulars, which means that arise when a reservist moves into active service. additional demand on the reserves. While the reserves Particularly with small and medium-sized enterprises, are clearly able to step up to the mark, and there is no but also with the household names at the middle question that they are absolutely able to do the job, management level, challenges are faced and pressures one of the issues about more regular deployments is must be met. The risk of failing to pay attention to this what employers feel about it. The slightly worrying engagement is that the reservist finds that he or she thing is that the BMA seems to be suggesting a growing may be less inclined to remain available. They know concern among NHS trusts about doctors being deployed. their mobilisation is causing problems and that the If our own ministries are not able to facilitate the military do not always appear to understand business deployment of reservists, that raises some serious needs and pressures, but that flexibility and consistency questions. Does the Minister know whether this is is essential. Late requests for training leave in the more a systematic problem or whether it is only in the build-up to deployment, for instance, can aggravate medical area that reservists are having problems being the situation. Retaining recruited reservists demands released for deployment? more attention to employer engagement, especially as more frequent mobilisation exacerbates the complexities The final issue is medical provision for reservists—in for the individual, the family and the employer. Can particular, in respect of mental health issues. Again, if the Minister indicate what additional measures Her you are a regular, you have access to the Defence Majesty’s Government will take to improve retention? Medical Services. If you are a reservist on a base, or during training and deployment, you have access to The Armed Forces covenant has a central role to those services; but when you are back in your community, play in emphasising commitment across the community there may be issues that are not spotted because you to all parts of the services, including reservists. Next are not working with your peers on a day-to-day basis. month a covenant training day at Lambeth Palace will NHS doctors, despite the Armed Forces covenant, consider a variety of issues, including reservists, and I may not be looking for the sort of health issues that am delighted that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will be military doctors would be looking for. Is the Minister speaking at it. able to pass this back to the NHS and look at ways of I will add a brief second point about the journey improving those synergies so that our reservists have that we are taking. There are dangers in slipping into the same strength of medical provision as the regulars? free-wheeling, as others have called it. Good intentions and motivation are not enough. Strategy and management must be robust. Two commentators have written that 3.21 pm it is as if a new and exciting belief system has emerged The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, I share without the enabling architecture of churches, priests our gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Freeman, for and congregations. Your Lordships will appreciate this Question for Short Debate. The Whole Force that the analogy and argument attracted my attention. Concept is journeying from theory to reality. It is a The point is clear, I hope, that the sheer complexity of tricky journey, it seems to me, not because the Government blending Regular forces, reservists and civilian contractors set the wrong course five years ago but because of the will not just happen. The stated aims of reservists scale and complexity of the task. It is true that many providing extra capacity at somewhat lower readiness, essential defence skills, and especially many essential skills not otherwise available to the military, and rebuilding national security skills, reside in the private sector as the connection with wider society are laudable, but the well as in the Armed Forces. To bring these together task of building this capacity is great and the risk of coherently and effectively requires both strategic direction failing is a capacity gap that our defence and security and effective management. must not bear. I will turn first to the scale of the challenge and then briefly to the complexity. The recruiting of reservists 3.26 pm in substantial numbers, with a target of 35,000 across the three services, is frequently discussed. Less often, Baroness Buscombe (Con): My Lords, I was inspired as far as I can see—here I echo one of the points made to add my name to speak in this debate after having by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee—is the issue of retention the privilege of attending a dinner on Monday evening addressed. However, it is surely the key not just to at the Honourable Artillery Company in the presence meeting the target for the numbers of reservists, but of His Royal Highness Prince Michael of Kent. Those for delivering trained and skilled men and women to attending included a small number of senior serve in defence and security. Can the Minister pay representatives of the corporate world, together with more attention to employer engagement to help with representatives of the Honourable Artillery Company retention? and a head teacher at the local academy in that area. GC 63 Armed Forces: Reserves[LORDS] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 64

[BARONESS BUSCOMBE] There is a further and final sticking point. The best These dinners are held twice a year and are known spooks out there, who I suggest, if they knew about it, as “employers’ dinners”. The purpose is to focus on might be willing to give of their time to contribute to the enormous value of reservists in the Armed Forces. our national security, will probably not want to run up Although it was very much Chatham House rules, I and down hills on Dartmoor and the Brecon Beacons have to say that I was totally inspired by our principal or want to do drill. I hope that this is no longer a host and by General Sir Richard Barrons, Colonel prerequisite. Can my noble friend confirm that a spook Commandant and President of the HAC. The latter can remain relatively physically unfit while mentally spoke with amazing force and commitment about the keen? need for and worth of the reserves. If every young person and their employer could hear General Barrons speak, I think we would meet the numbers overnight. 3.31 pm However, I took away an important question from the Lord Bilimoria (CB): My Lords, I am delighted that event, one which I have thought about for some time. the Chancellor, George Osborne, has committed to What proportion of the reserves come from a military the 2% target that Britain was instrumental in background and how many people who are not from a implementing at NATO. Our doing so was a crucial military background are attracted by the current rather step in maintaining our capability to respond to unknown formulaic advertising campaigns? and unforeseeable circumstances, and yet the current In common with fellow guests at the HAC, I do not plans the Ministry of Defence maintain for the reserves come from a military background. Mine is the legal severely reduce our capabilities to respond to threats. I profession and the corporate world. So, from my believe it is being used as a cost-cutting measure rather perspective, even the language of the Armed Forces, than as a means to improve our Army. It is means including all those acronyms, is quite different from before ends, once again, just as it was in SDSR 2010. my own. This was a common theme among the guest: The need to update our Reserve Forces is crucial. if you do not come from that kind of background, When the independent commission first investigated how do you relate to what being a reserve has to offer? the Armed Forces, it noted that in 2005 the Army Which part of the Armed Forces would suit which Reserve—then called the Territorial Army—was no type of applicant? Indeed, with great respect, the longer required to support large-scale operations. Despite word “reserve” is not exactly enticing. In other words, this, the reserve was not modified to reflect this, leaving the branding and the clarity with which the 80 major units configured for operations. It is difficult opportunities out there are articulated to potential to compare our military to America’s, given the wholly candidates are crucial. Is enough being done to different size and nature of the Army Reserve, but in address this? the United States, reserves make up 32% of the current The 77th Brigade, based in Newbury, which I army. In Australia it is 30%, and yet here in the UK it learned about on Monday evening, is a great example is only 16%. The Future Reserves 2020 consultation which I am convinced would—and, I hope, does— paper makes clear that the Canadian reserve force is attract some excellent candidates. As many of your far more prepared for active combat than our current Lordships will know, it was originally set up as the force, drawing attention to the nature of graduate Security Assistance Group, formed following the recruiting into the Army as preferable to that within Army 2020 plan. The name was changed to reflect our own Reserve Forces. The paper points out the the independence of mind of the Chindits—I am effectiveness of Australian reservists in providing military extremely pleased to see my noble friend Lord Slim in aid to the civil authority for events such as the his place. Branding anything as related to the Olympics—as was required over here—in a manner Chindits should in itself be enough to attract the best instructive to the UK Army. young volunteers. The importance of how we explain I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freeman, for initiating to young people what is possible—what they can this important debate. I think the whole House would achieve as a result of this, what contribution they can agree that reforms to modernise and upgrade our make in terms of learning leadership skills, the ability reserves are paramount. Yet I am concerned that the to cope in difficult conditions and so on, and what strengthening of the Army Reserve is primarily a that can then lend and contribute to their world of cost-cutting measure rather than a military one. The work—is immeasurable. integration programme has been poorly executed, to The 77th Brigade attracts a mix of regulars and the extent that 65% of Regular Army members surveyed reserves who are specialists in their fields, influencing believe that reserves are currently not well integrated. attitudes and behaviours in other countries. There is Does the Minister recognise this? Given that the aim expertise for security capacity building and for training of the Army 2020 programme is to create a fully foreign security forces. There will be many young integrated force, this is worrying. These statistics people in the private sector and the professions with demonstrate that the overall priority of the Government the requisite skills—including, for example, social media, has not been to maintain the quality necessary within marketing and public relations—who, with the right our Armed Forces. This is a real worry, because reserves approach, would be attracted to making a contribution seem to be making up for cuts in the Regular Army. in this way. In addition, the Joint Cyber Unit—again For me, reserves taking the place of the Regular Army with the right approach—would attract many with is an oxymoron. Surely the increase in reserve strength technology skills who would be excited by the challenges and capability should be something designed to and the contribution they could make to this joint complement the Regular Army, not replace it. Would cyber reserve. the Minister agree? GC 65 Armed Forces: Reserves[22 OCTOBER 2015] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 66

Even with the course the Government have chosen In those capacities and in my efforts to research for to go down, it is essential that at no point are we left myself our progress towards our targets for 2020, I with an incapable force. Unfortunately, the current have recently visited the Scottish and North Irish nature of the replacement programme leaves us Yeomanry in Scotland, 7 Rifles in London and threatened with just that. It is especially dangerous 622 Squadron RAF at Brize Norton, as well as my and leaves us vulnerable as a nation while the own regiment in the Royal Yeomanryat annual training necessary transition to a more integrated force is in Sennelager, and a magnificent event to mark the being completed. As the noble Lord, Lord Freeman, unveiling of a memorial to Trooper Potts VC, hosted said, the timeline of the recruitment and training of by 94 (Berkshire Yeomanry) Signal Squadron. the reserves should be a cause of concern to us all. It Listening to this debate, one could be forgiven for was initially the case that the number of Regular going away with the understanding that things are not Army members would not fall until the number of going quite as they should be for the reserves. The reserves had risen to compensate for the demand. Yet reality is that they are generally going considerably the projects set out in the Army 2020 plans are being better than they have been for very many years. I used to cover for increasing weaknesses in the body of should pay tribute to the unprecedented support given our Regular Army. The National Audit Office showed to the Reserve Forces by the Government, emanating that recruitment of reserves is 67% down on required from my right honourable friend the Prime Minister figures, and the figure for regular personnel is below himself. I would also single out for thanks the Minister target at 34%. Would the Minister confirm those for Reserve Forces, my honourable friend Julian Brazier, figures? The figures confirm the fears that I and who is doing an outstanding job. others have that the redevelopment of the reserves is primarily for budgetary reasons rather than military The Defence Reform Act 2014 gave the Reserve ones. Projections in this report have shown that we Forces and cadets’ associations a statutory responsibility will only reach the 30,000 figure for reservists in 2025. for reporting annually on the state of the reserves. In In the years before achieving that objective and that regard I draw noble Lords’ attention to this year’s completing the transition to a fully integrated Army, external scrutiny team’s annual report, all of which is we will be significantly less able to respond to threats. worth reading. I know the Government have taken Would the Minister accept that? Such a reduced care to note it. Army will mean that we are unable to exert ourselves Time is rationed, so I must focus my remarks on significantly in the world or to cope with the so-called recruiting, although I would have liked to speak about black swan events that are impossible to predict, and several other matters, such as capability, integration without the capability to respond swiftly in future and the reserves estate. I will not have time either to years. talk specifically about officer recruiting, to which my noble friends Lord Freeman and Lord Attlee referred, The United States Defense Secretary said, just recently, except to say that they are right and that this is a that Britain has always punched above its weight when particular area of concern. it comes to our Armed Forces. Today is the 75th anniversary of the Royal Engineers’ bomb disposal On the issue of numbers generally, I hope that my unit. Today I heard Warrant Officer Karl Ley, who noble friend the Minister will confirm that the Royal was awarded the George Medal for clearing more Navy and the Royal Air Force are making good progress roadside bombs than anyone else in history—139, and will achieve their targets, give or take a little, by including 42 in a single village. He said that the British 2018. The Army has the biggest challenge but is making Army is the best-trained in the world, and he said it progress, and I expect it to take a little longer, but I with pride. He said that because we are the best-trained emphasise that, from the reports I hear, this is often in the world, “We train hard, we fight easy”. The because units have found workarounds rather than British Army has to retain that culture and reputation relying on the system in place. of excellence as the best of the best in the world— Focusing on the Army, bearing in mind the aim of something that is a matter of pride for all of us. The 30,000 people trained, in round numbers there were reform of our reserves to form a more integrated force 21,000 in April this year—the Minister may be able to is necessary to achieve that goal, but it should be give us more up-to-date figures—with 4,400 more pursued as a method to strengthen our Army capabilities, under training. However, this looks better when one not as a method to save money and thereby weaken appreciates that the trained strength is up by 1,000 our capabilities. since the year before and, more significantly, the figure for those under training is up by a further 1,000 since the year before. Aspects of the recruiting process 3.37 pm remain cumbersome—too many applicants have been Lord De Mauley (Con): My Lords, I declare interests dropping out while in the pipeline because it has taken as colonel commandant of the yeomanry and colonel too long—but now the services have got a grip and are of the Royal Wessex Yeomanry, a regiment that I enlisting candidates conditionally while still awaiting commanded early in the millennium, which might their final medical clearance, which is eminently sensible make me what my noble friend Lord Attlee calls a and partly answers the very real problem identified by, “proper Rupert”. I am also president of the Council of I believe, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Associations, in which The Army is suffering on both regular and reserve latter capacity I succeeded my noble friend Lord Freeman, recruiting, so a red light is flashing about how well the to whom I am extremely grateful for bringing this Capita recruiting group contract is working. There is a debate. systemic problem with the way in which the process is GC 67 Armed Forces: Reserves[LORDS] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 68

[LORD DE MAULEY] demand on our reserves than ever before. This brings set up, but there is a reluctance to acknowledge it and me to a particular worry: the mental health of our it would bear ministerial investigation. As ever, there is reservists. no substitute for units taking direct responsibility for The annual report of the Reserve Forces external individual recruits, making them feel part of the team scrutiny team, helpfully provided to us by the library, immediately and managing each of them through the gives cause for concern. It points out that the protracted pipeline. That is now happening and things are improving. exposure of reservists to intense operations makes the Three of the recommendations in the external scrutiny matter of their mental health very important indeed. team’s report are crucial for recruiting, and they bear The team have a statutory duty to report on this repeating. Recommendation 15.3, to which I have just matter, but they struggle to do so because of the referred, proposes a review of, paucity of data available and they doubt that UK “the separate roles played by the national call centres, the Armed Defence Statistics is in a position to provide them with Forces Careers Offices, the recruiting field forces and Reserve anything better. What are the Government doing about units to ensure that they are clearly optimised for Reserve recruiting”. this? Without adequate data, the external scrutiny Recommendation 15.4 states that there should be a team cannot be expected to carry out their duties review of, properly. I appreciate that it is a big ask because the “the medical entry standards required of recruits”, team themselves say that the department’s ability to and that the MoD and the services should, track individual cases is very limited. I would suggest “ensure that the screening contracts are appropriately incentivised that one reason for this is that reservists’ first point of and assured to achieve success”. contact on health matters is the National Health Service. Recommendation 15.5 states that we need to, One problem there is the lack of signposting. “determine the recruiting resources necessary to ensure steady In late spring 2006 I was still a Defence Minister, state manning of the Reserve beyond the FR20 period”. and I was due to speak at the annual conference of the On a couple of specific matters, perhaps I could ask BMA. The telephone rang and it was Prime Minister the Minister how the Civil Service 1% challenge is Tony Blair, who said he was giving me the DCM—“Don’t progressing. When I was at Defra, we made significant Come Monday”—and I was no longer a Minister. efforts to draw to the attention of civil servants the Had I gone to the conference, my remarks would have benefits of reserve service. It would be good to know been about signposting, urging GPs, whenever a patient how that is going because it seems a bit awkward for presented with a mental health issue, to ask: “Are you the Government to ask private sector employers to ex-service?”. If the answer was yes, in addition to encourage their people to become reservists if the treatment the GP should point them in the direction Government do not do the same, and more. of the Veterans Agency, as it then was, or organisations Finally, on the grounds that we need to recruit like Combat Stress. Is that being done now? If not, everyone bright and fit enough that we can, I ask my will the Government take it up with the BMA? I noble friend whether foreign and Commonwealth understand that GPs are encouraged to refer those nationals can be recruited into the reserves, and what patients with service connections back to the military progress there has been on recruiting ethnic minorities, healthcare system. Is that happening? Of course, such who historically have been underrepresented, so that signposting should apply to our reservists, too. The major efforts have been made to attract them. scrutiny report recommends that the Armed Forces covenant team look at this. Can the Minister give us an undertaking that this will be done? 3.43 pm Many reservists who may be suffering with mental Lord Touhig (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble health problems may be inclined towards denial in Earl, Lord Attlee, for his kind welcome. As to my case it affects their full-time employment. In terms of relationship with the Minister, I am sure that we each the ongoing duty of care, if a reservist has a mental give as good as we get, but I rather suspect that much health problem, what is the MoD doing to help with more unites us than divides us in how we should their domestic and employment concerns? Does the defend our country. Minister’s department collect data from the Armed When I served as a Defence Minister my mission Forces charities that work in this field? statement, put simply, was, “We will value our service I spent a day with a Combat Stress counsellor, after men and women and do everything in our power to I had ceased to be a Minister, visiting veterans and care for them”. Our most valuable resource is not the their families, discussing health, financial matters and latest piece of kit but our people, and nowhere is that domestic worries. What I experienced that day has more important than in the Armed Forces. The first been with me ever since. I visited homes and saw duty of any Government is to care for the welfare and photographs of strong, healthy, young men proudly in well-being of their citizens, and I believe that that uniform. In one particular case, sitting alongside one must include the defence of our nation. such photo, I saw a shrunken wreck of a man who will The noble Lord, Lord Freeman, in opening this never be the same again. I met his wife and children, debate, has articulated well the important role that struggling to cope, living with someone they now our reserves play in the defence of Britain. For more hardly knew. I witnessed the care, attention, sympathetic than a decade now we have seen the regulars and the understanding and practical advice that Combat Stress reserves working more closely together, although offered the family that day. After a couple of hours we there is clearly much more to do. Indeed in the Army, left that home where the atmosphere and hopefulness as a result of Army 2020, there is even greater was in marked contrast to the despair I had witnessed GC 69 Armed Forces: Reserves[22 OCTOBER 2015] Armed Forces: Reserves GC 70 when I arrived. I have nothing but admiration for the will work to maintain this progress to meet our Armed Forces charities that go that extra mile to fill commitment to creating a force of around 35,000 the gap that we as a country are not filling. trained volunteer reserves by April 2019. Finally, the external scrutiny team offered to work I can also say with confidence that the offer we are with the MoD to determine how reservists’ mental now making to reservists and potential recruits is the health reporting can be made more effective. Can the best it has ever been. In the two years since the White Minister say something about this in his reply? Can he Paper was published, we have made substantial give us an assurance today that his department will act improvements to the support that we provide to them. upon this request? Perhaps he can come back to us at a For example, we have invested in new equipment and later stage with an update, perhaps as a Written Statement. better training, including more opportunities to train We, and more importantly our reservists, should not alongside regulars and on exercises overseas; we have have to see the external scrutiny team come back next given reservists access to the same pension scheme as year, unable to make progress because of a lack of regulars; and we have given them a paid annual leave information to protect and help in their welfare. entitlement, as well as other significant benefits that I shall not list. 3.48 pm We are also offering reservists a greater range of The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl interesting and challenging opportunities than before. Howe) (Con): My Lords, I am most grateful to my New call-out powers enshrined in the Defence Reform noble friend Lord Freeman for the opportunity that Act have allowed us to use reservists in the same way this short debate has provided for me to speak about as regulars, and reservists have taken up the challenge. the strength of our Reserve Forces. We are addressing In the past 12 months, they have supported defence this matter head on by means of the Future Reserves engagement activity overseas, including providing vital programme. In the 2013 reserves White Paper we training to indigenous forces in Afghanistan and Ukraine; described the changes that we planned to make to the they have been deployed as formed elements to our Reserve Forces as substantial, as requiring a shift in bases in the Falkland Islands and Cyprus; they have the way that we thought of the Reserve Forces—both provided specialist help to deal with the Ebola outbreak in the country and in the Armed Forces themselves—and in west Africa; and they have taken part in counterterrorist as requiring changes to the way that we support them. and counterpiracy operations alongside their regular We also said that the plans were eminently achievable. counterparts. All told, around 600 reservists have been The expansion of the Reserve Forces under the Future called out for service since the Defence Reform Act Reserves programme is critical to our ability to deliver took effect. defence on a sustainable financial basis. It will enable The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth us to ensure that the Armed Forces are structured and asked about the issues arising from working alongside resourced to meet the challenges of the 21st century. regulars and contractors. Our recent experience in The Government are now restructuring and revitalising operations such as in Afghanistan and Iraq has shown our Reserve Forces, investing in new equipment and that reservists and regulars can and do work together training, and reversing a long period of decline and seamlessly, and they both work very closely with underinvestment. contractors, as well as with allied forces and other The programme is about doing defence differently. government departments and agencies. Almost two-thirds I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, in particular, of regulars who have served alongside reserves rate with considerable emphasis that it is not about swapping them as professional. That comes from the recent regular personnel for reserves, and it is certainly not Armed Forces Continuous Attitude Survey. about providing defence on the cheap. It is about However, we are not just making wider use of changing the way that we deliver defence to make the reservists on operational service; we are offering them best use of our resources, to better harness the talents more and better training opportunities as well. In the of wider UK society and to help restore the links and current training year, the services have planned more understanding between the Armed Forces and the than 50 overseas training exercises involving reserves, communities that they serve. We should be in no including a series of Army exercises in Kenya involving doubt that whatever the size of the Armed Forces, we integrated companies of regulars and reserves. We are must always have reserves. also giving reservists more recognition for their My noble friend Lord Freeman asked about contribution to defence. In June, the first ever Reserves recruitment, which has been a running theme in this Day was held as part of the build-up to Armed Forces debate. I am pleased to be able to report that our Day. This provided an opportunity for the whole of programme to grow the reserves is on track, with a the UK to celebrate our Reserve Forces and for reservists huge amount achieved already, although we are not to show pride in their service. Reserves Day will be an complacent and recognise that significant challenges annual event from now on. remain. In the year to 1 September, more than 8,300 My noble friend Lord Attlee and the right reverend people joined the volunteer reserves—an increase of Prelate emphasised the importance of retention. The nearly 70% on the previous 12-month period—taking changes that I have described are all part of improving their total strength close to 33,000. Most notably, the experience of being in the reserves, which is vital in more than 6,400 people joined the Army Reserve, an enabling us to motivate and retain people with the increase of 81% on the equivalent period in the previous right skills. They are having a positive effect. Around a 12 months. All three services have already exceeded year ago, it became evident that we had turned a their end-of-year trained strength targets. However, corner and that more people were choosing to stay in that does not mean that we can relax. We must and the reserves than were choosing to leave. GC 71 Armed Forces: Reserves[LORDS] Palliative Care GC 72

[EARL HOWE] which reflects a 7% growth in the preceding nine My noble friends Lord Freeman and Lord De Mauley months. That challenge remains a high priority within asked about the recruitment of ethnic minorities. Despite government. some very good work in recent years across defence, I hope I have illustrated the significant number of there is a clear need to do more to increase the strategic measures that we have put in place to help us recruitment and retention of women, black, minority to grow the reserves and develop their capability. We ethnic and other minority communities. This is a have also taken some important practical steps. We defence priority. To help achieve that aim, we have have overcome a number of technical challenges that established a defence diversity inclusion programme were affecting Army reserve recruitment. I say to my within the MoD that covers civilian and military noble friend Lady Buscombe that by making more employees. imaginative use of various advertising media and methods, My noble friend Lord Freeman and the noble Baroness, so that more people can see our messages about what Lady Smith, asked about recruitment to the medical the reserves can offer, there has been an increase in reserve. The majority of medical reservists undertake advertising recall and resonance among those who their primary careers within the NHS, as we know. have seen or heard the advertisement. The Defence Medical Services and the NHS have I am conscious that my time will shortly be up but I developed a close working partnership to promote the cannot fail to address very briefly the issue raised by benefits of reserve service which is supported through the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, about the mental health engagement events, myth-busting information and a of reservists. Incidentally, I warmly welcome him to dedicated reserve section on the NHS employers’ website. his new position. More than £14 million is being This collaborative approach is undoubtedly a factor in invested to deliver a significant change in occupational the increased success in recruiting into the three single- health services for reservists. There are programmes in service medical reserves, but we are not complacent on place to make sure that mental health briefings and that score either. preparations for reservists are aligned with those of My noble friend Lord Attlee asked about problems regular personnel. The veterans and reserves mental recruiting direct-entry officers. The services are aware health programme is open to current and former members of that issue and have begun to put programmes in of the reserve services. There are conditions attached, place to attract officers and to shorten their training but treatment will be offered by the Defence Medical pipelines. My noble friend Lady Buscombe asked about Services to individuals whose mental health is assessed 77 Brigade recruiting and fitness standards. Fitness to have suffered primarily as a result of their operational standards for some elements of 77 Brigade are different service as a reservist. This care can be accessed for life from those of most other formations. as long as it is clinically indicated. My time is up. I regret not having addressed all the I should also mention, to the right reverend Prelate points raised, but I hope this has been a helpful in particular, our continuing work with employers. In résumé of where we are with this important agenda. the White Paper we said that we want to build relationships with employers that are tailored to reflect their individual circumstances, open and predictable and based on Palliative Care mutual benefit. We understand the commitment that Question for Short Debate employers of reservists are asked to make, and we are immensely grateful for that commitment. We consulted extensively with employers of reservists before the 4.01 pm White Paper, and we have responded positively to the Asked by Lord Farmer observations they made. For example, we have established the Defence Relationship Management organisation, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light which provides account management services for the of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman’s most significant employers and employer organisations report Dying Without Dignity, what steps they are at the national level and information and support for taking to ensure that everyone who needs it has reservists and employers through its website and helpline. access to good palliative care and a level of social We have increased the financial assistance available for care that ensures the end of life is valued. employers and introduced new incentive payments of up to £500 per calendar month per reservist for small Lord Farmer (Con): My Lords, I am sincerely grateful and medium-sized employers when their reservist for the interest you have shown in this issue. To be employees are mobilised. There are other things as honest, this is not least because it is the first Question well that I could mention but I do not have time to do for Short Debate which I have asked in your Lordships’ so. House, and one is always slightly nervous that it might We launched our employer recognition scheme in end up being just oneself and the Minister. I am also 2014, and gold and silver awards emanate from that. appreciative because many of you will be here again The 700th corporate covenant was signed in September tomorrow to discuss the Private Member’s Bill of the and more have been added since. Central government noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the same deeply is playing its part too, with a challenge set by the important subject. Cabinet Secretary for 1% of members of the Home I hope that our debates will be complementary and Civil Service to become reservists, a point mentioned not duplicate each other, because I want to range by my noble friend Lord De Mauley. As at July this somewhat away from a legislative approach and focus year, there were more than 1,250 Civil Service reservists, more on the cultural and social aspects of palliative GC 73 Palliative Care[22 OCTOBER 2015] Palliative Care GC 74 care. Indeed, I am particularly pleased that we have Hospice UK believes that the number of people been joined by the right reverend Prelates the Bishop dying in hospital could be cut by 20%. Can the of Rochester and the Bishop of Carlisle because I Government do more to help make it possible for hope they will touch on the area of spiritual care and more people to die at home, which is the first choice comfort, which is sorely neglected in many policy for so many? Sometimes there is only a very short discussions. After all, Jesus spoke more of eternal life window of time, but being at home for even the last than anyone else in the Bible. 24 hours can make all the difference. This is not a fringe issue but very much at the heart In one area in the north-east, a clinical commissioning of what it means to be sensitive to the needs of the group is contracting with a hospice to support community patient and their family as death draws near. Let us be teams so that district nurses and GPs can ask them to clear from the outset about the profundity of what we assess patients within two hours. These hospices are are dealing with here, as individuals approach the acting as one-stop shops in the community—and, if moment when they are coming to the end of their noble Lords will forgive the phrase, “death hubs”. human existence in this universe. We might be surprised They do not just help those who come through their by how many want this to be acknowledged and are doors—and only 5% of people in this country die in grateful when they are offered spiritual help. “Do you hospices—but they take their expertise out to people want me to pray for you?” is a question that recognises in the area so that people’s closeness to death can be the fears many are feeling about what is happening. established and proper care can be given. In my preparation for this debate, I talked at length This approach has kept people out of hospital—always to palliative care clinicians who have been with many the most expensive place to be—and could be the at the end of their lives. One said, counterintuitively, answer to inadequate out-of-hours services. Even in that it is not those who have an active faith who hospitals, palliative care teams may not come on duty appear most in need of spiritual comfort. The last until 9 am, so extremely ill and dying people may be words of one woman who died a very painful and forced to see out the dark watches of the night while prolonged death from cancer but who was a fervent suffering in severe pain, with profound nausea and in Christian were, “God is good, all the time”. It is the an agitated state. people who have a nominal faith, who suspect there’s I cannot overemphasise the importance of attentive something out there but have never quite nailed what care, not least because basic nursing care can, in some it is, who often seem to feel confused, anxious and cases, lead to recovery. The inappropriately applied abandoned. Having someone there who can help them Liverpool care pathway—or lack-of-care pathway—meant make peace with their maker—if that is what they are that there were many desperately sad cases where seeking and, obviously, nothing should ever be imposed— people did not receive this. Earlier this year, the Royal can be incredibly beneficial. In our secular society it is College of Nursing and Macmillan Cancer Support all too easy to brush over this, perhaps especially for reported that some hospitals had not changed their clinicians who have so many other aspects of patient practices, despite the Liverpool care pathway being care on their minds. The World Health Organization’s officially phased out. A distinguished neurologist who definition of palliative care refers to the need for, first sounded the alarm about the LCP said only a couple of months ago that he regularly hears from “impeccable assessment and treatment of pain and other problems, physical, psychosocial and spiritual”. relatives who are desperately trying to obtain “active” care for very ill relatives who have been denied it Earlier this month, the Economist Intelligence Unit because they are deemed to be dying. placed the UK at the top of its international league A compassionate approach asks what will make a table for palliative care, and I do not want to gloss over dying patient make the most of the life remaining to the very good work that many are doing across the them and how clinicians can work with family and country. However, this Question for Short Debate friends to ensure that that happens. Good-quality and highlights the Dying Without Dignity report, which honest conversations between GPs and their elderly summarises investigations by the Parliamentary and and sicker patients are essential. Many clinicians who Health Service Ombudsman into complaints about routinely work with very ill patients are reluctant to end-of-life care. It identifies important themes that I commit themselves, either to relatives or patients, as to will touch on here. how long someone probably has left, even though this The number one priority for improvement, because would enable them and their families to make plans. it is the prime mover of palliative care, concerns the Surely this has a lot to do with our cultural aversion to lack of recognition that people are dying and the poor talking about death. response to their needs. For many people that will YourLordships may have heard of the Dying Matters mean changing the way they are cared for to focus Coalition’s community initiatives to help people, wholly on relieving pain, but also making sure that “talk more openly about dying, death and bereavement”, they have a real choice about where they are going to die, and about how and with whom they would want and to make these issues, to spend their time if they had the foreknowledge that “accepted as the natural part of everybody’s life cycle”. death was close. It would enable families to prioritise Until I prepared for this debate I had never heard of and mean that symptom control could become the these, yet the role of the community is incredibly top priority, with care being better planned and important. When communities, volunteers and families co-ordinated. This, perhaps most importantly, can take on more responsibility for care, the costs associated mean that the wish of many patients to die at home with hospital stays and emergency admissions can be can be respected. significantly reduced. I therefore have a specific question GC 75 Palliative Care[LORDS] Palliative Care GC 76

[LORD FARMER] needed for palliative care, and one wants to make sure for the Minister. What, if anything, is the Department that it is happening all the time and that it is available of Health doing to create the incentives and support to all the volunteers so that they can do their work systems needed to encourage more community properly. From that standpoint, I endorse what the involvement? noble Lord said about it being essentially a community When a dear friend of mine died recently, his loved affair. Both the community and the cared for can ones were able to say that he had a comfortable death. derive great joy and benefit from that spirit. I think that that is what all of us would want for those who are close to us, and obviously even for ourselves. I 4.14 pm look forward to hearing from the many other speakers in this debate and from the Minister about how we can Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, in preparing get this right as often as possible so that a badly for this debate, I talked to a friend who had recently handled death becomes almost like a “never event”— been affected by the shortcomings in end-of-life care. incredibly rare because it defies belief that it should Her mother did not have an identified terminal illness, happen in a modern and compassionate healthcare but deteriorated slowly from multiple conditions. She system. had several stays in hospital and had agency carers at home. She had several assessments from social workers and occupational therapists, but no longer-term planning 4.10 pm was done for her inevitable future decline. Care was reactive to the immediate situation only. Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I am glad to be able to thank the noble Lord for introducing this debate and In her final few weeks she deteriorated rapidly and giving us the opportunity of a pre-run to the Second her carers struggled without additional equipment, Reading debate tomorrow. With all his experience, it but it took several days to get further assessments. By has been great to hear from him. Having said that, I the time the occupational therapist arrived to assess should give a word of explanation for why I will not be the suitability of her room for a bed with a hoist, in the House tomorrow. Paradoxically, the reason is which would have allowed the carers to handle her, the that after several years, tomorrow I will complete my family were at crisis point. My friend, at her wits’ end, service as president of Hospice at Home West Cumbria. tried to get the bed, but it was a Friday morning and Most unfortunately, our annual general meeting is to she was told that no equipment could be delivered be held at exactly the same time as the debate, and of before Monday. By the evening, her mother became course not only am I expected to preside at that unconscious in her chair. The out-of-hours service meeting, I want to do so. suggested an ambulance to take her to A&E. The family declined. They were then on their own. My What have I learnt from my years as president? friend’s mother died during the night, but had she They have been fascinating, cheering and, while very survived into the weekend it would have been almost challenging, deeply reassuring. One thing I have learnt impossible to care for her properly at home. is that death, a safe and secure death, is very much the responsibility of us all; it cannot be delegated to My friend’s reflections from this episode are as anyone. We all have our part to play in creating an follows. In contrast to the planning following a terminal atmosphere of support for the feelings and morale of cancer diagnosis, from which we need to learn, there is everyone concerned. That covers the staff, the volunteers, a lack of co-ordination and forward planning for the the supporters and the wider public. What is great care of elderly people with multiple conditions. Home about the Hospice at Home charity in West Cumbria assessments are time consuming. Using modern is that the staff are all volunteers who work way technology such as iPads and Skype and a simple beyond what could be expected from them in a contract. assessment sheet, any sensible person could have assessed But I have also learnt that the volunteers are determined the room and had direct contact with professionals for to be professionals. They want to maintain the voluntary instant advice, rather than waiting for a home visit. spirit, but they want all the time to train and improve Essential equipment should be available in much fewer so that they can make the best possible contribution. than four days. You can now order almost anything Given the opportunity, members of the public love to from Amazon online and have delivery the same day. feel a sense of responsibility. They want to feel that the There needs to be greater support for those caring hospice is their hospice: it belongs to them. The one for the dying person, especially in the evening, the point I wanted to get over is that this movement night or at weekends. No professional or other care depends upon an awful lot of people. support was offered to my friend in the final few hours It also depends upon a dynamic working relationship of her mother’s life, so it is not surprising that many between the hospice and the health service. There has people do not feel competent to care at home, even to be a great deal of flexibility and vision. I hope that a though they do not want their loved ones to die in message can go out from the leadership of the health hospital. If someone cannot be cared for at home, service that this is a good thing because it helps the transfer should be directly into a hospice, rather than health service to do its job properly. We have had very admission through A&E to a bed on a busy acute good experiences of this in West Cumbria and I want ward. to commend it to the hospice movement throughout In the July 2014 report Choice in End of Life Care it the country. It also helps to ensure that people really was recommended that each person approaching the are striving for the best standards in palliative care. end of life should have a fully interoperable electronic About the care, commitment and love there is no health record to help to ensure their preferences are doubt, but some careful training and preparation is recorded and shared with everyone involved in their GC 77 Palliative Care[22 OCTOBER 2015] Palliative Care GC 78 care, and that people should be able to access and add care at the end of life is imperative. It can help people to their own records. Will the Minister say what progress who are experiencing physical or mental pain to see is being made towards having this in place by 2020? that they are valued and that their life is worth living.

4.17 pm 4.21 pm Baroness O’Cathain (Con): My Lords, I begin by The Lord Bishop of Carlisle: My Lords, today’s welcoming the report from the Economist Intelligence debate, for which I am also most grateful to the noble Unit that was released earlier this month. As my noble Lord, Lord Farmer, has prompted me to take a fresh friend Lord Farmer pointed out, along with the WHO, look at some of the numerous documents on palliative it puts the UK ahead of every other country in the care that have been produced over the past two years, world for providing end-of-life care, as it did in 2010. including of course the ombudsman’s report, Dying The report praises the “strong hospice movement” in Without Dignity. As I read the documents, I was this country. The work of our hospice movement is struck and impressed by their general agreement that something for which we can and should be very thankful. palliative care at the end of life involves more than I feel passionately about palliative care. Indeed, I have simply the relief of physical pain, crucial though of raised it on several occasions in this House. It is course that is. Suffering is not always the same as pain important to say that, as a Christian, I believe that and it is often more difficult to ease, which is why the every single human being has an intrinsic value and word “holistic” is often used to describe the kind of the right to live the life that God gave them, no matter care that is needed. I cite as an example the NICE how old, ill or disabled that person may be. God gave quality standard which is regarded by NHS England us that life, and I believe that God has the ultimate say as, in when it will end. “a comprehensive picture of what high quality end of life care Dame Cicely Saunders, who is widely regarded as should look like”. the founder of the modern hospice movement, shared In particular, as we have been reminded by the noble this Christian outlook. She became convinced of the Lord, Lord Farmer, reference is made to spiritual and paramount importance of combining excellent medical religious support not only for patients but for relatives, and nursing care with holistic support that recognises carers and staff. Such support is an essential element the practical, emotional, social and spiritual needs of in end of life care. Religious needs are those experienced those who are dying. I constantly quote the second by people with specific beliefs, such as Christian, great commandment, where we are commanded by Jewish or Muslim. Spiritual needs are more generic; God to love our neighbour, and that means in whatever they are experienced by everyone regardless of belief, circumstances they find themselves in. Dame Cicely and since the early 1990s there has been a growing also used another expression, which was quoted at her recognition of the importance of spirituality in palliative memorial service: care, not least in most of our hospices. “You matter because you are”, So, at a time when some are questioning the need who you are, for healthcare chaplains, I suggest that recent reports “and you matter to the last moment of your life. We will do all we actually make a compelling case for their retention. can not only to help you die peacefully, but also to live until you Their special training and expertise equip them to die”. offer compassionate spiritual care to everyone, as well It is often said that a society is measured by how it as religious care to those who need it; and “everyone” treats its frailest and most vulnerable members. I want includes relatives and staff. Compassion is something the UK to be a nation that prizes every citizen, not one of a buzzword in the NHS these days, and it has very that treats those coming to the end of life as useless close links with spirituality. For that to be effective, and a waste of resources. I very much welcome the though, it is essential that chaplains should be included overwhelming rejection of the assisted suicide Bill last in end of life plans for patients and are treated as full month by the other place, and I trust that the vote members of multidisciplinary care teams. In many settles the matter for a long time to come. If assisted trusts that is already regarded as standard practice. suicide or euthanasia were ever legalised, many people Last week, for instance, I was talking with a palliative would be put under pressure to end their lives for fear consultant who is the end of life lead in a large of becoming a burden upon friends, family or the hospital in the north of England. She mentioned the healthcare system. Instead, as I have said before in this electronic order sets which automatically trigger requests House, the really humane solution to suffering lies in to the chaplaincy team and to the end of life nurse. improving palliative care, not in helping people to kill That, she said, has made an amazing difference, and themselves, as some would have us think. has meant that every patient dying in that trust has There is no doubt that much more work has to be access to a chaplain. There are also a growing number done to make our provision of palliative care better, of chaplains attached to health centres who are able to especially in the NHS. The World Health Assembly care for dying patients in the community, which, as the resolution last year urged its 194 member states to noble Lord, Lord Farmer, reminded us, is where most recognise the importance of good-quality palliative people want to die, but where at present 50% do not. care and to ensure its funding. End of life care may be However, that is not a universal picture. As the expensive, but the reality is that almost no patient is ombudsman’s report indicates, the quality of end of beyond the help of pain-relieving medicine. If we want life care is patchy, and that is true spiritually as well as to be a nation that truly values every citizen, not just physically. As we have been reminded, there will of because of their contribution to society, then good course be a further opportunity to consider this tomorrow, GC 79 Palliative Care[LORDS] Palliative Care GC 80

[THE LORD BISHOP OF CARLISLE] may not only generate savings, but provide for the but meanwhile I am very grateful for this opportunity kind of death that 74% of patients desire. But as the to pay tribute to the contribution made by chaplains right reverend Prelate said, 58% find that they end up and their army of volunteers to end of life care in this in hospital. I therefore support the words of the noble country, not least by promoting compassion and respecting Lord, Lord Farmer. the dignity of everyone involved. So, may I ask the Minister whether he agrees that it is desperately important 4.28 pm that we should take their work seriously if the holistic care we offer to all is not only to remain at the top of Baroness Hollins (CB): My Lords, end of life care the league, but also to go on improving in the years to must encompass body, mind and spirit. Minimising come? suffering in the final days, weeks and months of life once a cure is no longer possible is not just a medical task, it is also the chance to support each person to let 4.25 pm go of life and experience a sense of completion, which may require support with physical, psychological, cultural Lord Ribeiro (Con): My Lords, sadly, the ombudsman’s and/or spiritual concerns. report documents many instances of poor care, poor communication, a lack of active review of cases and If a palliative care service is to be available in every inappropriate discharge from hospital. However, I take kind of healthcare setting seven days a week, there will issue with a statement in the conclusion: need to be changes to the current system. Continuity of support will also be an important ingredient in the “How we die is part of the core business of the NHS”. recipe, just as it is in the support needed at the beginning As one who practises medicine and surgery I do not of life. In birth and in death, there is a comfort that recognise this, as the core business for me was to save comes with knowing that the person who is caring for lives and prevent death. Death and dying should ideally you knows what is important to you. The Liverpool take place in quiet surroundings with people we love care pathway was an attempt to standardise and improve and care for around us. That is at home or in a hospice, end of life care. The intention was good but, as we as has already been mentioned. We should do more to have seen time and time again both inside and outside increase financial support for the nation’s hospices. medicine, where initiatives are not funded properly What are the finances? In 2010-11 we spent £460 million and are without sufficient training and supervision, on adult palliative care and end of life care, but there protocol-based practice becomes a tick-box exercise are wide variations with some areas spending £186 per and stifles creative thinking. End of life care needs to death on specialist care and others £6,213 per death—a be flexible and creative. It is about responding to the wide variation, as I have said. Some 61% of the PCTs needs of an individual. Some of those needs will be at that time spent less than £1,000 per death. Will the unexpected, requiring access to 24-hour support, be Minister say what the latest costs are and whether the that telephone advice or access to a doctor or nurse. variations have been ironed out? There is no doubt in my mind that accessible and Another issue is that of training for all healthcare equitable palliative care services are required across workers—doctors, nurses, care assistants and even England, just like other services that are fully NHS-funded. porters—in dealing with patients who are terminally This morning I received some advertising material in ill. For doctors, breaking bad news can be a challenge the post from Macmillan. It made the point that in the for many. The Royal College of Surgeons in its MRCS south-east of England, it has only enough nurses to examination has a communications bay marked, help around 25% of people with cancer. It is raising “Breaking bad news”, where we use actors to simulate charitable money to subsidise the care provided for patients or relatives so that we can put the trainees people with cancer at the end of their life. through a process where they have to break bad news to patients and react when the patients react adversely. Wales is a trailblazer and is already providing seven-day It is important that this is not limited to examinations specialist care services, but it is critical that geographical but is refreshed as part of continuing professional equity also translates into equal access for all individuals development. in our society, not just for those who are better informed or who can shout the loudest. People with learning Finally, all of this care must be delivered on a disabilities, children, individuals with severe mental seven-day basis, and preferably with access to specialist illness and all those who do not at first come to mind palliative advice 24/7. The challenge is how to achieve when thinking about someone who is dying need to be this without the introduction of a seven-day service, explicitly considered. I was teaching some GPs in a and we know the deliberations that are going on at the hospice, one of whom said, “But people with learning moment vis-à-vis the junior doctors’ contract. It was a disabilities don’t get cancer, do they?”. There is still common occurrence to have dying patients referred by quite a lot of ignorance, as the Minister is well aware, their GPs for admission on a Friday. I recognise that and the needs of some people in society are overlooked. many of the people who were admitted on a Friday Will he reassure us that the needs of these groups will would subsequently die. So when we are considering also be taken into account in any new health policy mortality at the weekends, it is important that we bear about end of life care? this in mind. As has been said, one of the drivers for seven-day working is to try to reduce mortality at 4.32 pm weekends. Hospital admissions in the last year of life cost the NHS £1.3 billion for adults and £18.2 million The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, I understand for children. Transferring some of these costs to the that the noble Lord, Lord Suri, is not able to be community and commissioning more hospice care present for this discussion, but I promise not to extend GC 81 Palliative Care[22 OCTOBER 2015] Palliative Care GC 82 my contribution by the minutes thereby freed. I am that I learnt just how important and effective good grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, for initiating palliative care can be. Dying without pain and yet this debate, and I apologise that I am not going to retaining full consciousness and the ability to speak to touch on matters that are directly to do with spirituality. one’s loved ones, as she did, is truly a priceless gift. It I shall leave that to those who have done so—my right gave her peace as she left us and eased the pain of loss reverend friend and others—because I want to focus for those of us who loved her. As the right reverend on one particular aspect of end-of-life care: what goes Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle said, good palliative on in Her Majesty’s prisons, for which I am bishop. care in a Christian hospice such as the one where my The Justice Committee of the other place produced mother died deals with much more than physical pain; a report at the end of the previous Parliament on older it deals with the spiritual issues that the dying person prisoners. It highlighted a number of matters associated is still wrestling with. I also very much welcome the with an ageing prison population, of which palliative growth of the hospice at home movement and the care is one. I am glad to say that that report had a wonderful work of Macmillan and Marie Curie nurses, generally positive response from the previous Secretary which allows people to die with good palliative care at of State, and I have every hope that the current home. Secretary of State will build upon that. I wonder why the gift of good palliative care is too This is not just about older prisoners, because the often denied to those who die in hospital. Too often health profile of offenders is such that we have within proper pain relief is not given, or given in such a way our prison estate a fair number of younger prisoners that the patient is at best semi-conscious. A death like who are in the end-of-life phase, so it is a matter of that lacks dignity and causes lasting painful memories significance within the whole of the prison estate. As I for the bereaved. I cannot see any major obstacles to visit prisons fairly regularly in my role as bishop to providing the training and tools for all doctors and Her Majesty’s prisons and talk to people in the sector, nurses, and all hospitals, to raise standards of care for it is clear to me that this is an area of growing concern the dying. It is a case of asking not for more money within the prison estate and that this concern is shared but simply for a change in training and in attitude. between the Ministry of Justice and the Department I understand what my noble friend Lord Ribeiro of Health. There is some good work going on. I have said. Hospitals are about saving lives, not losing them, come across good involvement of voluntary sector and in the long term I would love to see a move away agencies, among them Age UK and Macmillan, working from dying in hospital to dying at home or in a across and through the prison gate in various ways. hospice. But in the mean time it is apparent that many There is also the work of healthcare departments in of us will end our lives in hospital. So while we work prisons—I speak as the spouse of a former head of to change this, we cannot delay the work of changing healthcare in the Prison Service—and the chaplaincy, the experience now of those who will still face a alongside their regular work, is an important aspect of hospital death. this. I have been very moved by the briefing that most of We now have 10 palliative care suites in prisons up us have received about the needs of children with fatal and down the land. Last night I was speaking to the illness. I have huge respect for the doctors and consultants governor of a prison about the importance of the who must deal daily with such tragic cases, and they palliative care suite in his prison. This leads me to ask need every ounce of support and training to enable the Minister two questions. First, do Her Majesty’s them to give the best care to their young patients. Government intend to report at some stage on progress Every paediatrician and paediatric nurse should have arising out of the report into older prisoners and the specialised knowledge of palliative care as, sadly, all issues that arise as a result of an ageing prison population, will encounter children who cannot be cured. I know and are some of the things that the previous Secretary that for many who work with children, death is seen as of State for Justice indicated might happen indeed a dreadful failure. It can, however, be turned into a happening in response to that ageing prison population, triumph of the human spirit if those last months and with palliative care as one of those elements? Secondly, days are made into a rich, pain-free cherishing of a do Her Majesty’s Government have plans to establish young life, every moment of which, to parents and further palliative care suites within prisons such that a siblings, is, and remains to the end, infinitely precious. sufficient number of prisons have end-of-life care available The way in which we die is perhaps the most to prisoners who need it, bearing in mind that for important part of the way we live. I hope that every many of our older prisoners, sadly, prison is the place action of those who run the health service and the that they regard as home? related care services will demonstrate the value of every life to the end. No better way can be given than 4.35 pm by ensuring that universal palliative care is available to all. Baroness Perry of Southwark (Con): My Lords, it is with great pleasure that I offer my support to the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, and thank him for initiating 4.39 pm this very interesting debate. Access to the best possible Lord Turnberg (Lab): My Lords, I too congratulate care at the end of life is surely the test of any civilised the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, for his immaculate country and the value it puts on the life of its citizens. timing in having this debate and for his very wise I, too, pay tribute to the splendid work of the words. There is little doubt that hospices do a wonderful hospice movement. My own dear mother died in the job, and I for one am lost in admiration for the way Bournville hospice in Birmingham and it was then they go about caring for dying patients. However, GC 83 Palliative Care[LORDS] Palliative Care GC 84

[LORD TURNBERG] Farmer for raising this debate. As my noble friend hospices care for only about 3% or 4% of dying Lady Perry of Southwark said, the way we die is as patients, and more than 50% finish up in acute hospitals. important as the way we live. Nothing can be more These hospitals often do a very good job, but they important. Dying Without Dignity, which was produced have some problems. For one, they have young doctors by the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, and nurses who are ill prepared to deal with death. shed light on a number of cases which were unacceptable Too often they have not yet gained the confidence and quite shocking, but we should take some comfort which is needed to give the care and compassion which from the fact that we have a high degree of transparency. are so vital. On top of that, they have to deal with We are prepared to reveal things when they go wrong, their own sense of inadequacy when faced with dying and only by doing so can we learn from them and do patients. It is not easy. It is no help that they are better. distracted by having to rush around to deal with There are 350,000 expected deaths in England each seriously ill patients and that they have to focus on year. Of this group, many people will require high-quality saving someone’s life rather than helping someone else generalist end-of-life care, and 170,000 will require to die. specialist palliative care. Many of these people receive None of that is an excuse for the failing standards, good care at the end of their life. The fact that there and it is not possible to read the ombudsman’s report are 12 unacceptable instances in the PHSO’s report with any degree of equanimity. Indeed, as someone should not lead us to believe that that is normal for who has spent much of his life trying to educate most people. The most recent National Survey of medical students and train post-graduates in the proper Bereaved People (VOICES) report showed that three practice of medicine, I feel deeply ashamed. As an out of four people—75%—rated the overall quality of aside, I should say that there is a peculiar fear that end-of-life care for their relative as outstanding, excellent giving adequate doses of morphine for pain relief is or good. I accept that that 75% figure means that 25% somehow dangerous. The correct dose of morphine is of people did not have a good end of life. that which relieves a patient’s pain, and there is no excuse for withholding it when it is needed. I feel some Research by the Economist Intelligence Unit, which sympathy for Woody Allen, who said, “I don’t mind noble Lords have referred to in this debate, showed dying, but I don’t want to be there when it happens”. that the UK came out top of all 80 countries that were surveyed. Sometimes I feel that those of us who work Despite the fact that there is absolutely no shortage closely with the NHS tend to beat ourselves up a bit of guidelines on how to care for the dying, there is still more than we should. However, the fact is that end-of-life a huge gap between what we can do and know should care is incredibly difficult. It is very difficult to manage; be done, and what is actually achieved in too many each case is very different. Therefore, that we come top places. First, it is clear that many patients would prefer in that world ranking is very important. One interesting to die at home, as many have said. It is obvious that part of that report is that, too few social services and primary care facilities can cope with the heavy demand that this sort of care puts “The biggest problem that persists is that our healthcare on them. Hospices at home can be very successful—as systems are designed to provide acute care when what we need is chronic care. That’s still the case almost everywhere in the world”. they are in several places, as the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, and my noble friend Lord Judd mentioned—but The CQC has recently begun inspecting hospices. we need to provide more resources to spread that good The chief inspector for the CQC said: practice. “I know from what my inspectors are finding”, Secondly, we must face an obvious lack of the that, leadership that is needed in hospitals to ensure that palliative care services are provided in a timely and “hospices provide amazing care and support for people at the end effective way. We need someone with clout to take of their lives”. responsibility to oversee this service, somebody everyone More than 90% of hospices that it has inspected have knows and can turn to when needed. Thirdly, we must been rated as good or outstanding. place much more emphasis on education and training. It is quite easy to think that all deaths in hospital This is an area of clinical practice which you cannot are bad and that somehow all deaths in hospital just pick up as you go along. You need high-quality should be moved to a hospice or to people’s homes. It training by experts, and it is good to see that tomorrow’s may be true that that is where most people want to go. Bill emphasises this. Finally, we have to make sure that However, I can give my experience of my mother, who CCGs, trusts and those with the money take responsibility died quite recently after 14 days in hospital. I can for these services being funded, delivered and monitored. hardly imagine how someone in her state could have Are the tariffs for palliative care adequate? Are these been treated at home. She needed constant changes of services monitored, and by whom? Many questions her oxygen levels, she had to be switched from dry to are being raised in this debate, and we have to answer wet, and her pain relief—diamorphine—had to be them if we are to be judged to be a society that cares changed constantly. You could have that care at home, for its most vulnerable citizens. I very much look but it would require 24/7 care at home from trained forward to the Minister’s response. nurses with a doctor on call. My noble friend Lord Ribeiro referred to seven-day care, and there was 4.42 pm seven-day care. In many of our hospitals we provide The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, seven-day care. She had seven-day care with a senior Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con): consultant present throughout her stay, including over My Lords, first, I congratulate my noble friend Lord the two weekends she was there. GC 85 Palliative Care[22 OCTOBER 2015] Nuclear Technology GC 86

Last year, we introduced the five priorities for the I am also encouraged by CQC’s new approach to care of the dying person to embed these principles in inspection and its welcome focus on end-of-life care. all end-of-life care settings, and we have seen All CQC inspections of hospitals include looking at widespread engagement from clinicians across the end-of-life care. Already a number of care providers system to make those priorities a reality. This new have been inspected, including hospitals, hospices, approach replaced the use of the Liverpool care care homes and GP practices. Not only has this identified pathway, which was comprehensively phased out in areas for improvement, but it also allows CQC to July 2014. I echo the words of the noble Baroness, highlight and celebrate excellent care where it exists. I Lady Hollins, who said that many nurses and doctors reiterate that transparency is a very important part of implemented the spirit as well as the letter of the the approach of this Government to all aspects of Liverpool care pathway. Of course, she is right that healthcare. protocols and tick-boxes can sometimes drive the My noble friend also raised the important issue of spirit out of what was originally intended. However, I guaranteeing access to a level of social care that know from experience that many nurses—Macmillan ensures that the end of life is valued. We recognise the nurses and palliative care nurses—used the Liverpool vital role that social care support plays for many care pathway in the way that it was originally people approaching the end of life and their families intended to be used. On the other point that the noble and carers. Timely access to a high-quality and responsive Baroness raised about inequalities—she referred to social care system is critical in supporting people to people with learning difficulties—the CQC will die in their setting of choice at the end of their life. It undertake a thematic inspection that will report next also helps to avoid traumatic and unnecessary admissions year to look at inequalities and variations in the way to hospital. Interestingly, the Economist Intelligence that end-of-life care is administered, so she may wish Unit report says, to speak to the CQC and contribute to that. “People have woken up to the fact that we may be able to save I know that spiritual concerns, as raised by my money overall to society by investing in dying better”. noble friend Lord Farmer and other noble Lords, are We should perhaps not be talking about saving money. particularly important to people at this time in their Nevertheless, it is often not only better for the individual, life, and the priorities reflect that importance. They but can be cheaper if we provide better care outside rightly emphasise that care planning at the end of life acute hospitals. That is true, of course, in the treatment must take account of the dying person’s spiritual and of many chronic conditions as well. religious needs as well as their physical, emotional and We want to give people more control over the psychological needs. If we are honest, we do not do health and care services they receive, including end-of-life dying well, but that is because it is extremely difficult care. We have been promoting greater personalisation to do well. It raises all kinds of emotions, such as guilt, in how services can be accessed. This means building as well as the sadness that is inevitable around a support around individuals and providing them with person’s death. more choice, control and flexibility in the way they The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle access and receive care and support. raised the incredibly important work that chaplains do Once again, as I conclude, I thank my noble friend in hospitals, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. Not for highlighting this vital issue. I think there is a huge just chaplains but the whole mass of volunteers who measure of cross-party agreement in this area and I work with them give comfort and support not only to look forward to discussing it further in the debate relatives and those who are dying, but also to the staff tomorrow with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who in hospitals who have to work closely in very distressing is in the Room today.I end by saying that the Government circumstances. are fully committed to improving standards across I would also like to highlight the work being done palliative and end-of-life care services. by the Dying Matters campaign, which focuses on raising awareness of issues around death and dying 4.53 pm and encourages people to plan earlier and think about what is important to them at the end of life. I wonder Sitting suspended. how many people in this Room have realised only when someone close to them has died that there were Nuclear Technology things they wanted to say, but never said, and by then, of course, it is too late. I suspect it is part of the Question for Short Debate human condition. 5pm We know high-quality care relies on good care co-ordination and planning tailored to individual needs Asked by Viscount Ridley and preferences. Electronic palliative care records, “e-packs”, which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment referred to are a very important part of that, so that they have made of the relative merits of different when someone has expressed a wish it is recorded and forms of nuclear technology. does not have to be repeated umpteen times to paramedics, A&E doctors, geriatric doctors and the like. I would Viscount Ridley (Con): My Lords, it is a pleasure like to come back to this in more detail if I can, but I and an honour to introduce this debate on the merits am told that some 70% of CCGs have now got this of nuclear technologies, and I thank other noble Lords programme under way. in advance for taking part in it. GC 87 Nuclear Technology[LORDS] Nuclear Technology GC 88

[VISCOUNT RIDLEY] designs or the best and safest fuel cycles, rather because these are I start from a position of great perplexity. I read what we have built a gargantuan regulatory framework to and hear a lot about different nuclear technologies—fission accommodate”. or fusion, uranium or thorium, light water or heavy That does not mean that we should lower our safety water, salt or metal, water or gas, pressurised or boiling. standards, but it means that the Government should Although I can follow some of the details, I have not recognise that misregulation is preventing the invention really the foggiest idea which one to recommend or of inherently safer, as well as dramatically cheaper, champion. I do not expect the Minister to banish my designs. Whichever country unleashes that nuclear perplexity, but I hope that this afternoon we may innovation will reap rich rewards. The world is awash suggest a way to let the answer emerge through a sort with potential designs for better nuclear power plants— of bake-off, if you like. molten salts, accelerator driven, thorium, small modular, fast, and so on—but hardly any of them gets beyond This topic is important because there is both a the design stage. They remain PowerPoint reactors, in strong case and an urgent opportunity for the UK to the joke terminology. That is because of the immense regain its technology leadership in nuclear power. The cost of getting to the stage of building a reactor, in only way we will bring down the cost of nuclear particular the generic design assessment cost of about technology is with new designs and new ways of £100 million in this country. regulating them. New technologies change the world not when they are invented but when they get cheap. I shall focus now on small modular reactors, which Computing and air travel have been around for a very hold real promise of getting costs down because of the long time, but it is only when they became dramatically ability to roll them off the production line and not cheaper that they noticeably increased living standards. make each one a unique project. In theory they can slot into egg crates at sites, so as to build up a large In this respect, nuclear power stands out as a glaring capacity in small steps. They can be up and running exception. It was invented 70 years ago but has failed within a few years, allowing a return on capital and to get cheaper. That is why it is currently declining—yes, bringing the finance costs within reach of normal declining—as a percentage of world primary energy. capital markets. They can also be located inland rather Imagine if we could make nuclear power genuinely than on coastal sites. cheap. We would make fossil fuels obsolete, we could stop spending billions of pounds a year on futile and We are going to hear more, I think, about small regressive renewables subsidies and we would eradicate modular reactors from a number of noble Lords this fuel poverty and all emissions. afternoon, including the noble Lords, Lord O’Neill and Lord Rees. In short, small modular reactors could Building stations such as Hinkley Point will not do for nuclear what Samuel Colt did for firearms. make nuclear power cheaper because we are locked Interchangeable parts have done amazing things for into a very high price for a very long time for the the affordability of other technologies and they could electricity, a price that looked reasonable if you assumed do the same for nuclear. They could also possibly very high oil prices, but in fact oil prices came down. allow us to experiment with other technologies, because Because Hinkley is one of a kind, there is virtually no in some ways small modular is not itself a technology chance to get the price down by learning by doing. but a vehicle for technologies. However, this is not a debate about Hinkley, so I shall stop there. However, here is the obstacle. A 300-megawatt small modular reactor faces almost the same general design How do prices come down in other areas of assessment as a four-gigawatt leviathan, and the same technology? In a phrase, innovation through trial and ludicrously long time to qualify—four years or so. error. That is what brought down the price of shale That is the hump that the Government have to help gas, semiconductors and air fares. Therein lies the them to get over, and that is what is keeping small problem. We cannot allow errors in nuclear power, so modular reactors in PowerPoint form. In their response we cannot allow trials. We build excessive safety in to the House of Commons Energy and Climate Change from the start and we overengineer and underinnovate Committee last year, the Government promised to as a result. However, that is not a problem unique to look at the generic design assessment process for SMRs. nuclear power. Aeroplane manufacturers have faced What fruit has that investigation born? essentially the same issue and, thanks to complex The National Nuclear Laboratory, in a report last system analysis, they have cracked it. They innovate year, concluded that there is a significant global market without accidents. So something is wrong with the for small modular reactors valued at £250 billion to way we are regulating nuclear. £400 billion. It reckoned that there are four technologies As Professor Eric McFarland of the University of for PWR SMRs that could be viable within 10 years. Queensland wrote in the Wall Street Journal earlier They require £500 million to £1 billion to reach this year, production-level maturity over a period of five to seven years. The report identifies, “what holds back nuclear power is its high cost, which is almost entirely due to government regulations and restrictions that have “an opportunity for the UK to regain technology leadership in kept the industry confined to minor yet expensive improvements the ownership and development of low-carbon generation and to existing reactor designs. Out-of-the-box thinking on new reactor secure energy supplies through investment in SMRs”. concepts that could be far cheaper and safer is systemically discouraged … Today’s light-water nuclear reactors are constrained As Candida Whitmill of Penultimate Power wrote by government regulations and agencies appropriate for the 1950s in a paper for Civitas last year, we should look at what to look much like those built for the production of isotopes for the US is doing. In January 2012, the Department of weapons—not because these are the lowest-cost power-reactor Energy in the US announced a competition to incentivise GC 89 Nuclear Technology[22 OCTOBER 2015] Nuclear Technology GC 90 the first commercial SMR, offering $452 million over We have this capability. The Chinese have recognised five years on a 50% match-funding basis for successful our regulatory capability, which is one of the reasons projects. It also provided the site at Clinch River free they want to get involved. If we can produce kit that is of charge. meeting our standards, it will be acceptable pretty well Instead of spending £100 billion by 2030, forcing across the globe. Let us face it, we are not talking here poor people to disproportionately subsidise the incomes about UK consumption of this kit in a big way. We are of wealthy investors in fringe technologies like wind talking about an export market, which at the most and solar—I know that the noble Baroness, Lady fundamental level could transform sub-Saharan Africa. Worthington, was expecting me to say that—let us We could have these small pieces of nuclear equipment spend a chunk of money on bringing forward SMRs placed beside the sea, for example, where it could be and on proper, well-funded research into the alternatives, used for desalination purposes, which could assist in including molten salt reactors, thorium and accelerator- the transformation of the agriculture of the area. driven designs. We could potentially win a commercial They could be placed as they are in remote communities. jackpot for the British nuclear industry. At the moment, the Russians put reactors on ships. In the area south of Vladivostok they link them into I add one final note on fusion. I know that fusion isolated communities that are not capable of being has been 40 years away for 40 years, but there is good linked to any Russian grid. There are a lot of opportunities, reason to think that may be changing. There is exciting and there will be some for use in the United Kingdom new science, which we heard about at the Science and of a limited character. Technology Select Committee, suggesting that a far lower field strength is necessary because of spherical In conclusion, the nuclear industry is normally tokamaks and high-temperature superconductors. Here associated with gigantism. Frankly, I favour large again, the vital thing is surely to let a thousand small 3,000 megawatt stations, which can do a very important flowers bloom. There is a rash of exciting new start-ups, job in sustaining baseload electric requirements in this which threaten to do to public sector fusion what country, but the fact is that we need to have a diversified Craig Venter did to genomics 17 years ago—that is, portfolio of production. For my money, this affords us dramatically cut the costs and accelerate the progress. a great opportunity. I should like to hear what the I suspect that we will hear more about this from the Government have to say about the medium term in noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton, so I will not go this area. I do not think that at present there is any on. We are as well-placed as almost any nation to great political divide on the issue. We had the anxieties benefit if we take the plunge into new technology in at the beginning of the coalition period over the lost nuclear, but we must consider taking that plunge. opportunity at Sheffield that a number of us felt, but the foundry issue is a thing of the past. We are now looking at taking advantage of the new metals and the 5.08 pm new carbon technologies to bring together high-quality engineering that can be placed at the service of the Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan (Lab): My Lords, I power industries. Today’s very short debate gives us an am happy to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley; I opportunity to give an airing to this, and I hope that in do not always say that, but on this issue there is a fair the course of the Session other opportunities will measure of agreement. There is a sense of hand-wringing arise. on the nuclear issue. Somehow Britain has lost its way in respect of reactors. I just want to make the point that we are still among the leaders in safety—although 5.13 pm it was suggested that we may be overegging the pudding. Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD): My Lords, We are also probably better placed than anyone else to I should make it clear that I am speaking in an entirely offer decommissioning services. In matters of regulation, personal capacity, neither as chair of the EU Energy you might say that the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate and Environment Sub-Committee nor as a spokesman has a status akin to the FDA in the United States in for my party. Energy policy clearly needs to be based relation to medicines and drugs. We are regarded as on three pillars, the so-called energy trilemma: the the gold standard. balance of security of supply, affordability and There are therefore a number of positives. The UK environmental considerations. As my committee’s 2013 produces reactors and our nuclear submarines use report made clear, the interests of all those are best Rolls-Royce reactors. They are not necessarily the served by having diversity in sources of supply. Unlike ideal reactor for what we are talking about in terms of the noble Viscount, I am a fan of renewables and I small, modular kit but I am sure that the company’s should like to see much more emphasis on energy skill base reflects its ability. If Rolls-Royce was put to efficiency, but I believe that non-renewables will have the task, I am sure that it could respond. I think we are to provide the baseload for our electricity supply well all aware that a very active part of the longer-term into the foreseeable future. Rolls-Royce strategy is to get involved in this area. It is As a councillor in Suffolk in the 1990s, I opposed also an interesting strategy because it addresses one of new capacity at Sizewell but in the intervening years I the fundamental concerns that people have about nuclear have changed my view. I am far more worried now power—namely, that it is somehow linked with nuclear about the threat of climate change, and I cannot see a weapons. We would be talking about an exclusively decarbonised future for this country which does not civilian technology. In the case of Rolls-Royce, it involve nuclear. For me, Fukushima and the subsequent would be a classic example of turning swords into stress tests which were carried out across Europe have ploughshares. For these reasons, it would be a great made me more confident about UK capacity in nuclear, opportunity. not less. GC 91 Nuclear Technology[LORDS] Nuclear Technology GC 92

[BARONESS SCOTT OF NEEDHAM MARKET] 5.19 pm Despite the fanfare of recent days, I am not at all convinced that Hinkley Point C will ever lead to new Lord Blencathra (Con): My Lords, I congratulate plant at Sizewell and Bradwell. I think that they are my noble friend on initiating this important debate in too large, too expensive and too uncertain. Similar the week we have signed a deal with China to permit designs in France and Finland are now years overdue. the EDF nuclear reactor at Hinkley Point to go ahead. There are also questions around whether it is sensible If we are to reduce carbon emissions by 80% by 2050, to put all your energy security eggs into one foreign as far as electricity generation is concerned, it means country’s basket. It is a questionable policy, particularly doing away with all hydrocarbon-based generation: in a country that is lacking in transparency. It seems coal, gas and oil. The only carbon-free electricity that, in this as in a number of other things, we have generation is from renewables, which means wind farms become beguiled by size. Projects on this scale require and solar, and from nuclear. Currently, nuclear supplies huge capital investment and are difficult to control in 20% of UK electricity. Some 16 gigawatts of new terms of their costs. Local people have to endure an nuclear is being planned by the Government, but that enormously disruptive period while construction takes is largely to replace our existing nuclear power stations. place. We therefore need a large influx of new nuclear to provide for our needs. Renewables cannot do it on Last week the Institution of Mechanical Engineers their own. published the results of some polling. It was encouraging I welcome the deal to build the huge 1,600 megawatt from our perspective to note that 56% expressed themselves behemoth at Hinkley Point. The design is based on the as being in favour of nuclear energy, but 44% said that reactor being built at Flamanville in France, which they would protest if anything was built within 10 miles was initially costed at ¤3.3 billion and due to open by of their homes. I have often wondered whether people 2012. Earlier this year, EDF said that it would be would feel quite so strongly if we could think about operating by 2018 and would cost ¤10.5 billion, but it these things on a rather smaller scale. So, like other has now said 2020 and we have no idea what the cost noble Lords, this has brought me back to the question will be. When I first looked at Hinkley Point, it was of small modular reactors, which have already been costed at £10 billion; then it was £12 billion, then mentioned. The 2015 World Nuclear Association report £16 billion. The latest reports all state £24.5 billion, describes how SMRs are built in factory settings in but yesterday the deal officially stuck with the figure modular forms, and I think that that is where the real of £18 billion. This is not a criticism of EDF in any economies of scale come in; they are economies of way but an inevitable consequence of trying a new volume rather than of size. The Nuclear Industry design for a massive reactor and of a nuclear inspectorate Association describes the delivery of 16 gigawatts of in France rejecting many of the build components. new build as its key priority. The fact that SMRs can Nor will Hinkley be built any faster than Flamanville be co-located with existing nuclear structures is a huge in my opinion, since our nuclear inspectorate will also, advantage in terms of working with communities that rightly and naturally, be slow, careful and ruthless in are used to nuclear facilities; there is a local and checking the build. I am afraid—if I may say so regional supply chain and skills base; and of course mischievously—that we might be in the era of President there are big cost advantages in being able to connect Corbyn of the British Islamic Republic long before to the grid. As a win-win, the significant amount of Hinkley Point is ever opened. heat that is generated can be used to supply local district heating for the community.Moreover,the “passive Small modular reactors are the only nuclear resource safety”features, which mean that little human intervention we can call upon to solve this problem, by providing is required in the case of an accident, are a real plus. reliable, relatively cheap power from about 2025 onwards. They can be factory built and installed where we need For decarbonisation, particularly as our coal-fired them, as well as exported into European markets and stations come out of commission, light water reactors into Africa, Latin America and Asia. They will be have the potential to be a really important replacement. built using the UK nuclear supply chain, unlike wind I note key developments in the United States from turbines. They will provide UK jobs, not French, Babcock and Wilcox with a 180 megawatt pressurised Japanese or Chinese jobs, and long-term contracts for water reactor and Holtec with a 140 megawatt plant. I businesses, giving them confidence to invest in people would be interested in the Minister’s comments about and resources. Andrea Leadsom, the Energy Minister, integral fast reactors, which in effect reprocess existing said last year that these SMRs, waste not just from plants but also from weapons. Hitachi has told the Government that it could have a “have the potential to drive down the cost of nuclear energy and make financing easier through shorter construction times and plant up and running in Sellafield within five years, lower initial capital investment requirements”. and I would like to hear a little more about that. I am also very interested to learn how the Government are I agree entirely, so I say to my noble friend the Minister, moving forward with regard to small modular reactors. “Let’s get on with it”. The chief scientific officer at Rolls-Royce believes that I understand that DECC is undertaking a second they could come onstream in five to seven years. The phase of work to establish the evidence base to inform Chancellor recently announced a £50 million research government policy decisions. This includes commissioning programme and I would like some more detail about a technical economic assessment that will run until that, particularly with regard to the development of a March 2016. The assessment would be used to inform robust regulatory framework and design assessment. any decision on SMRs, the various designs and the There really is no need for us all to keep reinventing commercial approach to developing them. That sounds the wheel. all very well and good, but all my experience of GC 93 Nuclear Technology[22 OCTOBER 2015] Nuclear Technology GC 94 government is that every research project concludes Over the past 10 years, there has not been strong that more research is needed as bureaucracies seek to public pressure in the UK to maintain the UK as a protect their back by never making a decision. There is country with advanced fission technology. That is a a generic design slot for one SMR which could start in great pity. Now, the question for the Government is 2017. We must not waste too much time and we whether they want to choose nuclear fission for the should crack on and get that slot. future. In a sense, they have done so with the It is not as if this is a radical or dangerous concept. announcements made this week. However—this has As the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, said, Rolls-Royce always caused difficulty for many people who are has been building off-the-shelf small nuclear reactors concerned about nuclear power—they have not been since 1965 for our nuclear submarines—the PWR1 very clear on the question of what to do with the and now the PWR3, which is roughly 50 megawatts. radioactive waste. The current position is that, as in The latest US aircraft carriers will have two Bechtel Sweden, radioactive waste will be stored in such a way A1B nuclear reactors, each capable of producing that it can be retrieved and transformed into a state 300 megawatts. That is phenomenal power for a big with a short lifetime. That would be the ideal solution. boat. In other words, the new US aircraft carrier, the We should also recall that, as the noble Lord, Lord “Gerald R. Ford”, will produce 600 megawatts of Blencathra, said, there have been remarkably few casualties power—36% of the output of Hinkley Point—at a from nuclear accidents around the world, and the cost of $10 billion for the whole boat, not just the number is absolutely minuscule compared with the engine. Surely to goodness that tells us something endless effects of coal, sulphur and particles. about off-the-shelf small modular reactors. Meanwhile, other technologies with lower levels of In over 60 years, there has never been an accident waste are being developed. Fusion is the favoured with either a US or British nuclear ship or power plant option supported by the UK and Europe. The ITER and they are all modular. I am told that we cannot just project is going to cost a lot of money, at $10 billion or hoick one of these engine designs and stick them on $15 billion, but it will be an enormous device. Last land, because the ships use 95% enhanced uranium—near week a presentation was organised by the French embassy nuclear bomb level—and our land-based civilian reactors at the Royal Institution, where we saw a film of this use about 5%. I do not know whether those figure are extraordinary great structure already being made. The right, but my point is that we have more than 60 years inner core measures something like 30 metres by 30 metres of experience of building small modular reactors using by 30 metres, and it will produce many thousands of one type of fuel. We would simply be asking Rolls-Royce megawatts of power. However, as Professor Cowley, to change from making diesel engines to petrol if we director of the Culham Centre for Fusion Energy, said ask them to make a different type of fuel reactor. It at this public occasion, this is an experiment. Of course, should be a piece of cake for our engineers to build it has to be an experiment when it is supported by our those. German colleagues, who do not want nuclear power. Finally, I must make this point to the Minister. As Professor Cowley went on to say, as did his French Conservatives, we have gone out on a limb in backing colleague, that this experiment would turn into practical nuclear power. If we want to deliver on this policy and generation in around 2040 or 2050, which of course show that we can create new nuclear power stations are the dates being cited by colleagues in Europe. within a reasonable timescale, we have to crack on An alternative is to produce modular fusion. The with small modular reactors. We can deliver these early idea from Culham is to have a spherical reactor quickly and cheaply. It will be a huge political with a radius of the order of 1.5 metres. To answer the embarrassment for the Government I support if we do question about power, new physics shows that, as a not get our first new nuclear power station operating device, this should be able to produce positive power before 2030. I commend my noble friend’s Question. before 2020 and practical power generation perhaps by 2025. We should remember that there are now a number of small companies in the United States and 5.24 pm Canada which are aiming in the same direction, so it is not as though this is a strange British brainchild. Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, for introducing this In the UK we have Tokamak Energy Ltd, and I debate. I am very pleased to be sitting next to a Lib declare an interest as an advisor. This is funded by Dem espousing the nuclear case, on which we have largely private investors, including, recently, the Institution had different debates in the past. of Mechanical Engineers. This is not a PowerPoint; it Nuclear power makes a vital contribution to the is a real project which can be found at the Didcot electrical power around the world. At Dunkirk it also industrial park, where there are two devices. It is an provides heat, which I believe helps the fish farming experiment which is running continuously, thanks to company of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox. As has the use of high-temperature superconductors. The been said, the heat from nuclear power stations is also point about the ITER project is that it involves low- important in the Arctic. temperature superconductors, and the amount of energy required to keep the device at an incredibly low The IAEA estimates that nuclear fission provides temperature is much higher. If a high temperature can 50% of all non-fossil power in the world, excluding be used, the dynamics are very different. hydro-electric. In France, 80% of the electrical power is nuclear, although for political and environmental I have a major point to make to the Minister. It is reasons they want to reduce that to 50%. However, it is extraordinary that here we have a world-beating British still a very high percentage. company but DECC does not allow this to be displayed GC 95 Nuclear Technology[LORDS] Nuclear Technology GC 96

[LORD HUNT OF CHESTERTON] There must surely be a step-change to reverse this at the IAEA annual conferences. There will be a big trend. This is in large measure because, if we are one next year on fusion and we are asking him for serious about achieving 80% reductions in CO2 emissions support, particularly as it is supported by the Government. by 2050, as mandated by the Climate Change Act—as Of course, there are sensitivities attached to this in I think we should be—then nuclear power should be that it is a small device compared with the larger ones, part of the mix. In fact, this conclusion is strengthened but I hope that the Minister can get round it. because the prospects for large-scale carbon capture The other point that everybody is concerned about and storage from fossil fuel-powered plants seem less is the fact that the UK has a very large amount of bright than many of us hoped. Indeed, the DECC fissile material or radioactivity. I believe that in the projections indicate that 30 to 40 gigawatts of nuclear future we should be motivated by the possibility of power may be required—far more than the 16 gigawatts having hybrid fusion-fission. that current plans envisage. Were that to happen, the economics would surely need to improve. Standardisation would help and so, perhaps, would a revision of the 5.30 pm presently over-stringent clean-up requirements. Lord Rees of Ludlow (CB): My Lords, we should be Surely, however, innovation is key. I am not competent grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, for introducing to assess the rival claims of the various designs; but this debate. It is timely because the medium-term need there is no other high-tech area where one would be for nuclear power is becoming more evident and because satisfied with 30 year-old designs. Even though the new reactor designs are attracting more worldwide UK is one of many players, we should surely aspire to interest. It is a timely wake-up call because the UK’s spearhead some of the developments. If we are to expand indigenous expertise in relevant technologies is becoming nuclear power by mid-century, we will need to make dismayingly thin. There is strong advocacy now to the optimal choices among the options. We are spending enhance R&D into other kinds of low-carbon energy £2 billion a year in decommissioning Sellafield’s dreadful generation—solar, for instance—so that these become legacy of nuclear waste. In that perspective it is surely more economical and come on stream more quickly. imprudent that the National Nuclear Laboratory cannot However there is surely an equal imperative for more spend more than the current few tens of millions on research, development and demonstration in the nuclear R& D. power arena, in hopes of rendering it a more economical In its report the Science and Technology Committee and acceptable base-load generator than it now is. described as “troublingly complacent” the ministerial Fifty years ago, the UK was a world leader in view that the need for R&D capabilities and associated nuclear technology. We developed Magnox reactors in expertise in the future can be met without government the 1950s and gas-cooled systems during the 1960s intervention. I hope the Minister will comment on and 1970s. Thereafter, the UK played a minimal part this. in developing new reactor designs. Our first PWR, Adapting Churchill’s famous aphorism about the Sizewell B, came on line in 1995, but it was also our Americans, one can surely hope that having made last. In the mid-1990s the nuclear industry was privatised almost all possible mistaken judgments on nuclear with the break-up of BNFL. Government funding for issues over the decades, this country will at last do the nuclear R&D then fell precipitously.Research on advanced right thing. This would be to spearhead enhanced reactor designs was shelved. Indeed, the focus narrowed R&D into fourth generation technologies so that when to maintaining the existing fleet, decommissioning we really need them there is a chance that there will be and waste management. Moreover, as we are all too an acceptable and safe option available. aware today, any of our currently commissioned power stations will be state owned—but by the French or Chinese state and not by us. 5.35 pm There are some bright spots. As the noble Lord, Viscount Hanworth (Lab): My Lords, the demand Lord O’Neill, said, we have ongoing expertise to build for electricity is highly variable. It varies throughout nuclear-powered submarines and we are international the diurnal cycle of 24 hours and over the weeks, the leaders in fusion research, which involves many issues months and the seasons of the year. The need to in advanced materials, irradiation damage and so on satisfy a demand on a large scale first arose in this that are relevant to fission as well. country in the 1920s and 1930s. The nation responded Overall, however, the picture that emerged from the rapidly by gathering the electricity generators into a House of Lords Science and Technology Select centrally controlled system that was supported by an Committee’s report four years ago was a deeply depressing integrated network of electricity generation known as one. The UK has a small and ageing population of the national grid. The result was an ample generating experts. Our committee was told that it would be hard capacity that was exploited effectively by the ability of to replace the present generation of safety experts, the grid to supply power to the places where it was who are highly regarded and widely consulted most needed, by transmitting it at high voltages with internationally, as the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, minimised losses. emphasised. Even worse, we were told that our scientists Our national system served us well in this manner and engineers would have a mere “watching brief” until the 1990s and became the envy of the industrialised over developments of SMRs and Generation 4 designs— world. In the 1990s, our electricity supply industry was hardly an inspiring enticement to young people making privatised with the intention of creating a competitive a career choice. It would surely seem imprudent, and a market. The perverse outcome was that, very soon, the missed opportunity, for the UK to be so sidelined. industry fell into the hands of a few large producers GC 97 Nuclear Technology[22 OCTOBER 2015] Nuclear Technology GC 98 and into foreign ownership. In this era, the problems able, within a reasonable period of time, to realise a created by the variable demand were met by a new programme for developing a small modular reactor technology of gas-powered generation that was sustained that can be manufactured in a central location and by an ample supply of North Sea gas. It seemed to the installed on the sites of existing and defunct nuclear proponents of privatisation that a centralised control plants. It has also been suggested that, if these reactors of the nation’s electricity supplies was no longer needed were more widely dispersed and located close to centres and that the market system was appropriate to the of population, they could provide district heating purpose. via pipelines of up to 30 kilometres in length. This These fortunate circumstances are at an end. We no would greatly reduce our reliance on gas for heating, longer have an ample and cheap supply of gas that can thereby contributing significantly to the process of be relied upon to fuel a flexible electricity supply. If we decarbonisation. are to meet our targets for decarbonisation, we cannot The ability to design and construct small modular continue to satisfy the base load demand with the reactors within the UK has existed for many decades output of coal-fired power stations. Nowadays, our within Rolls-Royce and its supply chain. Rolls-Royce demand for electricity is being met increasingly by the has produced nearly 100 reactor cores for UK submarines intermittent supply of wind power and by other renewable with an outstanding record of safety and performance. resources, including solar power. The problems of These have been conventional pressurised light-water intermittency might be overcome if we could expect reactors of a tried and tested design. We need to the sun to shine when the wind ceases to blow. However, embark upon the development of such a reactor the inverse correlation between these two sources is a immediately while there is an opportunity to do so in weak and an insufficient one. Moreover, this Government advance of our competitors. seem to be intent on destroying our solar-powered If time were available, I would also talk of the need resources by the removal of the subsidy incorporated to embark upon the development of a further generation in the feed-in tariff. of reactors capable of disposing of the nuclear waste We might be able to mitigate these problems of an of the previous and of the current generations of intermittent supply if we could depend on supplies reactors. These would be fast breeders and thorium from beyond our national boundaries. For these to be molten salt reactors. The next speaker might touch on available, there would need to be a super grid that these matters. could transmit the power from remote locations at very high voltages. Under the conditions of a free 5.41 pm market and given the difficulties of international Baroness Worthington (Lab): My Lords, I am extremely co-operation, such a facility is unlikely to materialise grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, for securing within the foreseeable future. In such circumstances, it this debate; at the time he could not have known how is difficult to see how we can easily satisfy our demand timely it would be. However, as he said, this should not for electricity. Nevertheless, we can speculate about be a debate about Hinkley, despite the temptations. the ways in which the Government are intending to address the problem. The title of the debate is very appropriate. It concerns how we assess the merits of different nuclear options. To supply the base load, they appear to be relying Like the noble Viscount, I have come to know about a on the new nuclear facilities which they are hoping the whole range of different nuclear fuels and reactors in French and Chinese will create for us. To meet the the time that I have been interested in this topic, and I peak demand, they may be hoping to rely on supplies certainly do not feel qualified to make decisions about of gas that might be purchased on the international their relative merits and which ones UK plc should market or magicked out of the ground on which we pursue. It is a task for the Government to work out a stand by the process of fracking. At present, neither of way of doing this. I am intrigued by the noble Viscount’s these recourses seems to be viable. The gas from suggestion of a nuclear bake-off; we could even get fracking is not yet available and it is doubtful whether that televised. It is a very good analogy for something it ever will be available in a significant quantity. that needs to happen: some real-world experience with The plans for the French nationalised electricity some of these reactors to see which ones can prove company to build a massive nuclear power station at that they can safely bring down the costs and deliver a Hinckley Point is mired in problems, both of a political sustainable and competitive nuclear industry. and of a technical nature. The project is exorbitantly Like the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, I have a expensive and it is likely to be affected by considerable conversion story of having once been anti-nuclear. In delays. We are told that we may have to wait until 2033 fact, I was Friends of the Earth’s anti-nuclear campaigner to see the commissioning of the power station at for a period, until I realised that that was a silly idea. I Hinckley Point. then became very interested in nuclear power and The proposals to place our nuclear future in the deeply explored the different options, and I then became hands of the Chinese fills many people with grave interested in novel or alternative nuclear. I am currently anxiety. What other recourses are available to us to a patron of probably the world’s first pro-nuclear meet the demand for electricity and for power more charity, the Alvin Weinberg Foundation, which I declare generally? It is plausible that we should be able to meet as an interest in this context. the needs by deploying our own technical resources I believe that there is a version of nuclear out there and by reinvigorating our nuclear industry.With sufficient that has not yet been made commercially available to government support, and possibly in collaboration us and which we as a country, with such a rich heritage with the industry of a partner nation, we should be in R&D, ought to be involved in bringing into being, GC 99 Nuclear Technology[LORDS] Nuclear Technology GC 100

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] they will do so in a transparent and open way, and not not just for our sakes but on a global scale. It is clear start with any pre-judgment about what the answer to me, as again the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, said, might be. When it comes to scale, we can do anything that the risk of climate change is so great that it should from 3.5 gigawatts down to 10 megawatts if we want now be our overriding focus in decarbonising our to, but what is going to be the optimal scale? Let us energy systems. It is absolutely clear that nuclear can not rule out something at around a scale of 500 to 600 play a huge role in that. In fact, the two countries in megawatts, which would slot in nicely behind coal the world that have demonstrated huge decarbonisation units as they are coming offline and, indeed, would successfully have been France and Sweden, yet we stick with the same scale as that of the Magnox seem to ignore that and instead look to Germany, reactors that we have seen closing. I do not want us to which, through shutting down its nuclear, has made rush down to micro-scale in a vain hope that that will the carbon intensity of its power worse. It is evident answer our problems. There is a whole range of options that nuclear should be part of this. that we should evaluate. Indeed, there is a whole range The role that the UK can play is very important. In of coolants that we can look at, including molten salts. this case, the UK must see itself as part of Europe. In such a short time, we cannot get into the delights of Unfortunately, it does not appear that we will ever get molten salt coolant, but I am a great fan and I believe consensus across Europe to pursue nuclear, because that it has huge merits. Austria and Germany have certainly set their minds I look forward to hearing from the Minister what against it. However, there will be at least nine other the UK is doing to bring on R&D. I have one specific countries that we can collaborate with, and I think question. In the discussions with China that took that we should now be asking Europe to enable us to place this week, was R&D mentioned? China is do a process of co-ordinated co-operation with those undertaking a huge amount of R&D. Can we collaborate member states which have pursued nuclear, to bring with China on that? about harmonised regulatory standards. I thank all noble Lords for an extraordinarily rich When we think about novel nuclear and bringing debate. new reactors to commercial reality, there will be absolutely no point in doing that if the total market for those reactors is in the region of 60 gigawatts in the UK. We 5.48 pm have to have shared regulatory licensing so that we can Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con): My Lords, I sell into a bigger market, and we must be able to sell thank my noble friend Lord Ridley for bringing forward into other European countries. What can the Government this debate. It is good to see so much consensus on do—and what are they doing—to pursue common some of the important issues that we face, particularly regulatory standards across Europe so that we can after yesterday. I also welcome his idea of the nuclear open up a market that is far greater? The UK’s regulatory bake-off; I shall be speaking later to the noble Baroness, arrangements are world-class, which has been referenced Lady Worthington, because I see a definite commercial by a number of noble Lords. We have a great reputation, possibility in going forward with what she suggested which is why countries such as China want to come on television. here to prove their reactors, and we have a wonderful I will first say a little bit about Hinkley and then try regulatory system, which is based on outcomes, not on to deal with the contributions made by noble Lords. a tick-box approach to what a nuclear reactor ought At the outset, I will say that given the time constraints, to have, as is the case in the United States. The United I would like either to make a Written Statement on the States finds it very difficult to bring new designs nuclear position or alternatively, if that is not possible, forward because it has very rigid tick-box regulatory to write setting out the position of what we have standards, so in fact US vendors are now looking to touched on today, and on things we have not, given the UK as a place to have their new reactor designs that there is an awful lot that we have not touched on. tested. That is probably after they have done a prototype I want to be able to update noble Lords on what the far more cheaply in China; but if they do it in China, department is doing, which is a considerable amount. they will still want to have it signed off and approved As has been said, the debate is timely given the by a country such as the UK, which commands such signing of a strategic investment agreement this week international respect. in relation to Hinkley. Let me say a little about that Therefore, I think that the UK has a huge role to because it is a significant step forward in the development play in bringing about a new wave of nuclear reactors. of the first new nuclear power station in the United It is not fair to say that it is just regulation that has Kingdom for two decades. However, that is just the held this back. There has been quite a high level of beginning. As has been suggested by some noble Lords, conservatism within the industry and a tendency to and in particular by my noble friend Lord Ridley, this stick with what it knows. The attitude of “if it isn’t is not an either/or situation. We can have Hinkley, broken, why fix it” has prevailed for a long time. It is and, indeed, we do need Hinkley, and we can have now evident that certain things about the nuclear small modular reactors. It is my belief that they are industry are not optimal. There is definitely a need to not mutually exclusive in any way. The technologies bring the cost down and to think again about the right for the next tranche of nuclear power are coming scale on which to build our next fleet of nuclear. forward with Hinkley, Bradwell and Sizewell. I think that we have still not answered the question I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, for what posed by the noble Viscount, which is so important— she said about her personal view on nuclear energy, namely, how we are going to evaluate our options? I and I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. hope that this Government will start to do so, and that As I say, it is very good that at least within this forum GC 101 Nuclear Technology[22 OCTOBER 2015] Nuclear Technology GC 102 we are able to have such unity, which is important. I The Culham Centre is the United Kingdom’s national say that, but I will not say any more about what is fusion research laboratory and forms a crucial part of happening down at the other end. Clearly, it would be the worldwide fusion research programme. It hosts the very useful to have some investment certainty on the Joint European Torus, which is currently the world’s nuclear power programme as we go forward. That is largest and most powerful fusion reactor and the focal important. point of the European fusion research programme. The decommissioning and clean-up of the United The Government can help to create the environment Kingdom’s civil nuclear legacy also remains a national and the frameworks required to support nuclear priority. Many noble Lords touched on this and, indeed, development and deployment, and the department is touched on the high hazard of Sellafield and the very keen to do that. We also need to underpin the regulatory high costs associated with it. I believe that we have framework. I note what my noble friend Lord Ridley learnt the lesson of that. It remains a massive part of said about the long periods of time it takes to get these the budget of the Department of Energy and Climate projects off the ground, but I also note the comments Change, and will do so for a considerable time into the made by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, in relation to future because of the particular hazards associated our first-class safety record. Clearly, we would not with it. want to prejudice that, so we need to try to get the Many noble Lords also raised points about research right balance between the two. Safety must come first. and development, including the noble Lord, Lord Rees. That is crucially important. Research and However, I agree that we need to march forward, development in this area was largely halted in the specifically on small modular reactors, which was middle of the last decade. The department regards this mentioned by all noble Lords and has wide backing. as a high priority and views it as money well spent. I The Government recognise that these could offer cost will say something about that in a minute in the reduction and massive commercial benefits to the context of the spending review. As noble Lords are United Kingdom, particularly through factory production aware, the spending review process is under way and processes—the egg box point—and the reduced cost we are at a crucial period. More will be able to be said of capital needed to finance projects. There is also a when we are on the other side of it, but substantial big advantage with siting them. Potentially they do work has been undertaken by officials in the Department not need to be near the sea and the process of selecting of Energy and Climate Change, the Department for sites could therefore go forward very quickly. Business, Innovation and Skills, the Treasury, and the An initial feasibility study was completed in December Nuclear Decommissioning Authority in relation to 2014 and this made a start in building the evidence the nuclear decommissioning issue. We are also, of base we need to take it forward. This is being further course, looking at the position of research. developed, as my noble friend Lord Blencathra said, Looking to the longer-term future, while technologies through a more detailed techno-economic assessment such as fast reactors and molten salt reactors and which is to be completed in March 2016, so that is not vehicles such as small modular reactors are still a long to wait. I know that there is an urgency about this significant time away from commercial deployment, and I will ensure that as soon as we have the information, we maintain a very close interest in their development. it is relayed on to noble Lords. This assessment will We are not starting from scratch. The United Kingdom, enable the United Kingdom Government to understand as has been indicated, has a rich research and development the opportunities for delivery, including industry views history which covers many of these reactor technologies on strategic partnerships if Ministers decide to support and fuel types. We have previously designed and operated small modular reactors. The department is sympathetic a diverse range of research and demonstration reactors, to the case. We are waiting for that evidence and then from the fast reactor programme at Dounreay to a we will clearly assess it. This evidence will help to number of interestingly named research reactors at crystallise the Government’s objectives for SMRs by Winfrith in Dorset. These include Zebra, Nestor, Zenith, building our understanding of how the potential for Hector, Juno and, indeed, Dimple. Winfrith was also SMRs could be unlocked. the home of the high-temperature Dragon reactor which provided some of the earliest experimentation Picking up on the point made by the noble Baroness, with thorium-based fuels. I know that the noble Baroness Lady Worthington, about the need for agreement on has an interest in this. the harmonisation of regulation, we are engaged in The United Kingdom is also a leading nation in discussions with our European partners about this fusion research, which was touched upon by the noble and I will try to cover it in more detail in the letter that Lord, Lord Hunt. I will get a specific answer to him I send to noble Lords. It is a point well made in terms about the position regarding the International Atomic of the market. Obviously we need to march forward Energy Agency. I was unaware of that, as officials hand-in-hand and with the same considerations. were as well. If there is any particular information that On the points about small modular reactors made the noble Lord could give us after the debate, we will by my noble friend Lord Blencathra in relation to certainly look at it to see what is holding up or marine nuclear propulsion reactors, certainly they are preventing a demonstration at the annual event next a part of the evidence base for looking at how they year. If the noble Lord could come forward with that could be deployed However, there are particular problems we would be very pleased to look at it. with them. As the noble Lord said himself, they are There is also the Culham Centre for Fusion Energy. not an automatic translation to land base. They have That part of Berkshire is becoming a sort of nuclear shorter serviceable lifetimes and the relative size of energy hub and it is very important to foster that. individual marine reactors is much smaller—they are GC 103 Nuclear Technology[LORDS] Nuclear Technology GC 104

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] good record of Rolls-Royce, with which I definitely at the smaller end of the scale of small modular concur. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised reactors. Nevertheless we are looking at that and the record of France on nuclear, which, at the moment, considering it. as other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord As to the other points that have been made, I have Hunt, have pointed out, is 80% nuclear. This is declining picked up the point about the safety standards. I a little to diversify but what France does is significant should perhaps have covered earlier a point relating to and we are studying that. Hinkley. There will be what I understand is at least a Perhaps I may undertake to write with more detail 60% supply chain for UK business, which is important. on some of the points that have been covered and on I have covered the research programme. I have covered some of the points that were not covered on the the point of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on Tokamak different technologies. In closing I should thank the and the position with the IEAA. If the noble Lord Nuclear Innovation and Research Advisory Board for could bring forward more detail on that we will certainly the advice it gives to the department. It is chaired by look at the conference in 2016 to see whether we are Dame Sue Ion and provides the Government with able to help. It sounds like a very good point. assistance and expert advice on the R&D needed for nuclear energy, which is significant. We need R&D in The issue of CCS was raised and it is an important order to develop our nuclear future and to be competitive. part of the mix. We spent a long time on it in the It published its first annual report in January, which Energy Bill and there has been a degree of consensus recommended an R&D programme of up to £250 million around the Chamber and with the different parties over the next five years. We are considering its advice. which I am anxious to keep. However, again, it is not It is a vital part of the current spending review and I mutually exclusive with nuclear power. It is understood hope that the Chancellor will see a copy of the record and agreed that we need a diverse mix. of our proceedings today. The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, quite rightly talked about some of the challenges faced and the very Committee adjourned at 6.01 pm.

Volume 765 Thursday No. 54 22 October 2015

CONTENTS

Thursday 22 October 2015 Introductions: Lord O’Shaughnessy and Baroness Stroud...... 777 Questions HS2 ...... 777 House of Lords: Appointments ...... 779 Financial Services: Competition ...... 781 Syria and Iraq: Airspace...... 783 Enterprise Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 786 Private Ownership Motion to Take Note ...... 786 Zhang Kai Statement...... 812 Education and Employment Opportunities Motion to Take Note ...... 815 Chilcot Inquiry Question for Short Debate ...... 851 Grand Committee Lyme Disease ...... GC 25 Universal Declaration on Human Rights: Article 18...... GC 40 Armed Forces: Reserves ...... GC 56 Palliative Care ...... GC 72 Nuclear Technology ...... GC 86 Questions for Short Debate