0:00:09.58 –> 0:00:10.748 Hello and welcome to 0:00:10.75 –> 0:00:11.656 Science et al. 0:00:11.656 –> 0:00:13.166 The about everything science 0:00:13.166 –> 0:00:15.13 sponsored by the Yale School of Medicine. 0:00:15.13 –> 0:00:17.266 I’m your host Daniel Barron and in this 0:00:17.266 –> 0:00:19.217 episode I’m speaking with Carl Zimmer. 0:00:19.22 –> 0:00:20.9 Carl writes the matter column 0:00:20.9 –> 0:00:23.594 for and is the 0:00:23.594 –> 0:00:25.49 author of 13 books about science. 0:00:25.49 –> 0:00:27.765 When we sat down to schedule our 0:00:27.765 –> 0:00:29.72 podcast recording, in fact it was 0:00:29.72 –> 0:00:31.67 hard to put our schedules together. 0:00:31.67 –> 0:00:33.295 ’cause Carl was touring the 0:00:33.295 –> 0:00:34.92 world for his recent book. 0:00:34.92 –> 0:00:36.54 She has her mother’s laugh, 0:00:36.54 –> 0:00:38.724 which won the 2019 National Academies 0:00:38.724 –> 0:00:40.526 Communication Award and the Guardian 0:00:40.526 –> 0:00:42.521 named it the Best science book of 0:00:42.521 –> 0:00:44.666 2018 and as of recording this intro, 0:00:44.67 –> 0:00:46.938 Carl is already finished his next book, 0:00:46.94 –> 0:00:47.562 Life’s Edge. 0:00:47.562 –> 0:00:50.52 The search for what it means to be alive, 0:00:50.52 –> 0:00:52.487 which will be published in March 2021 0:00:52.487 –> 0:00:54.739 and is now available to pre-order. 0:00:54.74 –> 0:00:55.871 Sounds like he. 0:00:55.871 –> 0:00:57.751 Used his quarantine time, well, 0:00:57.751 –> 0:00:59.977 at least better than I did. 0:00:59.98 –> 0:01:02.956 Karl is a frequent guest on Radio Lab, 0:01:02.96 –> 0:01:05.148 an adjunct professor at , 0:01:05.148 –> 0:01:06.958 where he often teaches classes 0:01:06.958 –> 0:01:08.162 on science communication,

1 0:01:08.162 –> 0:01:10.393 two of which I’ve had the 0:01:10.393 –> 0:01:11.506 privilege of attending. 0:01:11.51 –> 0:01:12.629 Carlist his knowledge, 0:01:12.629 –> 0:01:13.748 the only writer, 0:01:13.75 –> 0:01:15.976 after whom a species of tapeworm 0:01:15.976 –> 0:01:18.209 has been named, which is neat. 0:01:18.21 –> 0:01:19.693 On a personal note, 0:01:19.693 –> 0:01:22.234 I was excited to speak with Carl 0:01:22.234 –> 0:01:23.789 specifically about his history, 0:01:23.79 –> 0:01:26.11 and one of his books. 0:01:26.11 –> 0:01:28.228 Soul made Flesh was the first 0:01:28.228 –> 0:01:30.31 time I remember reading his work. 0:01:30.31 –> 0:01:32.734 It was when I was 23 years old 0:01:32.734 –> 0:01:35.261 and had a profound impact on the 0:01:35.261 –> 0:01:37.66 way I think about the world. 0:01:37.66 –> 0:01:38.312 In fact, 0:01:38.312 –> 0:01:40.594 I can still remember where I was 0:01:40.594 –> 0:01:42.457 sitting in my university’s medical 0:01:42.457 –> 0:01:44.653 library when I picked it up. 0:01:44.66 –> 0:01:47.052 I was struck by Karl’s ability to help 0:01:47.052 –> 0:01:49.537 me make sense of an extremely nuanced 0:01:49.537 –> 0:01:52.01 and complex history of how religion, 0:01:52.01 –> 0:01:52.36 theology, 0:01:52.36 –> 0:01:52.71 philosophy, 0:01:52.71 –> 0:01:54.81 and relatively nascent field of neuroscience. 0:01:54.81 –> 0:01:55.5 Kind of. 0:01:55.5 –> 0:01:57.915 Mesh together to sculpt the way we 0:01:57.915 –> 0:02:00.308 think about ourselves and society. 0:02:00.31 –> 0:02:02.834 I got so excited about the history 0:02:02.834 –> 0:02:05.018 of neuroscience that I wrote a 0:02:05.018 –> 0:02:07.447 couple of bad essays about it when

2 0:02:07.447 –> 0:02:09.798 I was a grad student and included 0:02:09.798 –> 0:02:12.108 a large section on the history 0:02:12.108 –> 0:02:13.968 of epilepsy and my dissertation. 0:02:13.968 –> 0:02:16.411 Which kind of made some of my 0:02:16.411 –> 0:02:18.308 dissertation advisors roll their eyes. 0:02:18.31 –> 0:02:19.03 Oh well, 0:02:19.03 –> 0:02:20.539 I was perhaps understandably 0:02:20.539 –> 0:02:23.113 nervous at the beginning of our 0:02:23.113 –> 0:02:24.75 conversation and remain grateful 0:02:24.75 –> 0:02:27.038 to Carl for bearing with me as I. 0:02:27.04 –> 0:02:28.984 Kind of settled into speaking with 0:02:28.984 –> 0:02:31.47 someone I so greatly respect and admire. 0:02:31.47 –> 0:02:32.838 So here we go. 0:02:32.838 –> 0:02:33.18 Carl 0:02:48.08 –> 0:02:50.238 Thank you very much for coming on, 0:02:50.24 –> 0:02:51.161 especially given this 0:02:51.161 –> 0:02:52.696 very busy season for you. 0:02:52.7 –> 0:02:54.17 As you’re gathering more awards 0:02:54.17 –> 0:02:56.4 by the day for your recent book, 0:02:56.4 –> 0:02:58.83 which is wonderful. 0:02:58.83 –> 0:03:01.427 I’m really excited to talk to you, 0:03:01.43 –> 0:03:03.42 not only because you’ve been 0:03:03.42 –> 0:03:05.809 thinking about science at a very 0:03:05.809 –> 0:03:08.105 high level for a very long time, 0:03:08.11 –> 0:03:10.444 but also because you are extremely 0:03:10.444 –> 0:03:13.529 articulate and have a wonderful ability to. 0:03:13.53 –> 0:03:15.756 Put in words or put in language 0:03:15.756 –> 0:03:17.816 things that a lot of people 0:03:17.816 –> 0:03:19.886 think but can’t quite do that. 0:03:19.89 –> 0:03:22.524 So one of the central themes that 0:03:22.524 –> 0:03:24.787 we’re interested in exploring is what

3 0:03:24.787 –> 0:03:27.456 is science and how do you approach 0:03:27.456 –> 0:03:30.07 it and what interests you about it? 0:03:30.07 –> 0:03:33.535 And so one of the things that. 0:03:33.54 –> 0:03:35.592 Kind of struck me was, you know, 0:03:35.592 –> 0:03:36.176 growing up. 0:03:36.176 –> 0:03:38.24 It seemed like you were in a 0:03:38.24 –> 0:03:39.756 household where people were very 0:03:39.756 –> 0:03:41.424 politically active and so I wanted 0:03:41.424 –> 0:03:43.21 to learn a little bit more. 0:03:43.21 –> 0:03:44.818 Go back to the beginning and 0:03:44.818 –> 0:03:46.754 then we’ll work our way back to 0:03:46.754 –> 0:03:48.362 the president about what it was 0:03:48.362 –> 0:03:50.365 like growing up and whether you 0:03:50.365 –> 0:03:51.705 were interested in science, 0:03:51.71 –> 0:03:52.002 communication, 0:03:52.002 –> 0:03:53.754 or science generally at that age. 0:03:55.33 –> 0:03:58.606 I was mainly obsessed with writing. 0:03:58.61 –> 0:04:04.21 I just wrote a lot sort of a 0:04:04.21 –> 0:04:08.098 graphomania kind of thing and I. 0:04:08.1 –> 0:04:11.215 I mainly grew up in . 0:04:11.22 –> 0:04:16.67 We were on a little farm 25 acres and I had. 0:04:16.67 –> 0:04:19.61 Sheep and chickens in a wood lot, 0:04:19.61 –> 0:04:22.81 and so I certainly. 0:04:22.81 –> 0:04:26.41 I certainly had sort of the natural world a 0:04:26.41 –> 0:04:29.689 little more in my face than if I had been, 0:04:29.69 –> 0:04:31.94 you know, growing up in a 0:04:31.94 –> 0:04:34.029 suburban cul-de-sac or in a city. 0:04:34.03 –> 0:04:37.072 And I think that had an influence on me 0:04:37.072 –> 0:04:40.19 that I only kind of thought about later, 0:04:40.19 –> 0:04:42.458 you know so. 0:04:42.46 –> 0:04:44.973 You know writing a book about parasites

4 0:04:44.973 –> 0:04:47.95 is may seem strange in a weird choice, 0:04:47.95 –> 0:04:49.048 but you know, 0:04:49.048 –> 0:04:50.878 like if you’ve seen enough, 0:04:50.88 –> 0:04:53.07 you know livestock dealing with parasites, 0:04:53.07 –> 0:04:55.786 or, you know picked a whole bunch 0:04:55.786 –> 0:04:58.56 of ticks off your dog or so on. 0:04:58.56 –> 0:05:00.39 You know, like you know, 0:05:00.39 –> 0:05:02.586 the parasites are part of life, 0:05:02.59 –> 0:05:04.05 so these are kind 0:05:04.05 –> 0:05:06.204 of curiosity’s that you experienced even 0:05:06.204 –> 0:05:09.174 as a child and kind of your curiosity 0:05:09.174 –> 0:05:11.37 generally was peaked at that age. 0:05:13.02 –> 0:05:15.715 It was, although it’s not like ever 0:05:15.715 –> 0:05:18.12 articulated that to myself and I 0:05:18.12 –> 0:05:20.08 didn’t have great science teachers 0:05:20.08 –> 0:05:22.478 in grade school or high school. 0:05:22.48 –> 0:05:23.856 They just you know, 0:05:23.856 –> 0:05:26.81 it just was not a memorable experience. 0:05:26.81 –> 0:05:29.561 I had a couple of really good 0:05:29.561 –> 0:05:31.474 writing teachers and I think 0:05:31.474 –> 0:05:34.058 that had a big influence on me so 0:05:34.137 –> 0:05:38.06 reinforced my interest in writing. 0:05:38.06 –> 0:05:41.46 So you know, by the time I got to college, 0:05:41.46 –> 0:05:43.5 I knew I wanted to write, 0:05:43.5 –> 0:05:46.22 but that’s just such an incredibly wide open 0:05:46.22 –> 0:05:48.6 statement. And that was here. L then 0:05:48.6 –> 0:05:50.3 I went to Yale undergraduate. 0:05:50.3 –> 0:05:52.94 Yeah, so I. I came here very excited 0:05:52.94 –> 0:05:55.396 because I felt like you know what? 0:05:55.4 –> 0:05:57.1 A great place to learn, 0:05:57.1 –> 0:05:59.14 how to become a writer would.

5 0:05:59.14 –> 0:06:02.11 Again, whatever that means and. 0:06:02.11 –> 0:06:03.782 And then forget it. 0:06:03.782 –> 0:06:05.872 I had this sort of. 0:06:05.88 –> 0:06:08.89 2 double English class for freshman year, 0:06:08.89 –> 0:06:12.33 which I was really excited to start on. 0:06:12.33 –> 0:06:14.48 It was a great class. 0:06:14.48 –> 0:06:18.8 Just sure Whirlwind tour of literature. 0:06:18.8 –> 0:06:21.608 And the first day I was at some, you know, 0:06:21.608 –> 0:06:23.421 welcome to college party with a bunch 0:06:23.421 –> 0:06:25.688 of freshmen and some professors and my 0:06:25.688 –> 0:06:27.669 English professor was there and he said, 0:06:27.67 –> 0:06:28.83 well, welcome to college. 0:06:28.83 –> 0:06:30.81 And what do you want to do? 0:06:30.81 –> 0:06:34.269 An and well you know I want to be an English 0:06:34.269 –> 0:06:37.493 Major because I want to be a writer. 0:06:37.5 –> 0:06:39.32 And I I’m eternally grateful 0:06:39.32 –> 0:06:41.631 to him ’cause he said, well, 0:06:41.631 –> 0:06:44.086 you know, here we don’t. 0:06:44.09 –> 0:06:46.946 Really teach you how to be a writer. 0:06:46.95 –> 0:06:49.798 We teach you how to be a critic, 0:06:49.798 –> 0:06:51.227 and I thought, well, 0:06:51.227 –> 0:06:53.369 I don’t want to do that, 0:06:53.37 –> 0:06:55.659 and so I avoided a lot of 0:06:55.659 –> 0:06:57.3 the literary theory classes, 0:06:57.3 –> 0:06:59.37 which were very much the rage 0:06:59.37 –> 0:07:01.23 at the time at Yale. 0:07:01.23 –> 0:07:04.67 More sort of focused on who were the. 0:07:04.67 –> 0:07:07.12 Who are the writers that spoke to 0:07:07.12 –> 0:07:10.076 me and that I felt like I could 0:07:10.076 –> 0:07:12.61 really get something out of reading? 0:07:12.61 –> 0:07:14.134 And then, you know,

6 0:07:14.134 –> 0:07:16.42 took a couple writing courses and 0:07:16.499 –> 0:07:18.659 then aside from that you know, 0:07:18.66 –> 0:07:21.628 took classes to just try to just sort 0:07:21.628 –> 0:07:24.698 of educate myself as broadly as I could, 0:07:24.7 –> 0:07:25.84 which included science. 0:07:25.84 –> 0:07:28.479 Also time Philistine in terms of writing. 0:07:28.48 –> 0:07:30.37 So when you say critic, 0:07:30.37 –> 0:07:32.638 I’m thinking of like an art 0:07:32.638 –> 0:07:34.15 critic or Anthony Lane, 0:07:34.15 –> 0:07:35.32 Christina movies, or. 0:07:35.32 –> 0:07:37.66 Whatever, so is that more what 0:07:37.66 –> 0:07:40 the education was focused on at 0:07:40 –> 0:07:42.328 the time? And it was more. 0:07:42.33 –> 0:07:44.648 It was more about, you know, 0:07:44.65 –> 0:07:46.58 literary theory, so you know, 0:07:46.58 –> 0:07:48.908 in other words, like you know, 0:07:48.91 –> 0:07:50.454 what are, you know, 0:07:50.454 –> 0:07:52.384 do you have just developing, 0:07:52.39 –> 0:07:56.149 you know, sort of an argument about? 0:07:56.15 –> 0:07:58.774 Know what literature is or what it does, 0:07:58.78 –> 0:07:59.77 how it’s assembled. 0:07:59.77 –> 0:08:02.11 You know, maybe that was sort of a 0:08:02.11 –> 0:08:04.784 sign that I was going to be heading 0:08:04.784 –> 0:08:07.01 off into the world of journalism. 0:08:07.01 –> 0:08:09.061 You know where I would read these 0:08:09.061 –> 0:08:11.439 books and I just be really curious 0:08:11.439 –> 0:08:13.587 about the people who wrote them. 0:08:13.59 –> 0:08:15.886 Who are these people who wrote them? 0:08:15.89 –> 0:08:17.202 What in their lives? 0:08:17.202 –> 0:08:18.514 An in the politics, 0:08:18.52 –> 0:08:21.256 and so on of their day lead them to

7 0:08:21.256 –> 0:08:23.785 craft these books the way they did? 0:08:23.79 –> 0:08:25.665 And what do those works 0:08:25.665 –> 0:08:27.54 tell us about those times? 0:08:27.54 –> 0:08:28.395 And you know, 0:08:28.395 –> 0:08:30.39 but there were a lot of literary 0:08:30.459 –> 0:08:32.727 theorists who were just much more 0:08:32.727 –> 0:08:34.61 interested in talking about texts 0:08:34.61 –> 0:08:36.416 and the death of the author. 0:08:36.42 –> 0:08:39.06 And it just it felt like very alien 0:08:39.06 –> 0:08:40.372 world to me. Well, 0:08:40.372 –> 0:08:42.012 it’s certainly alien to me. 0:08:42.02 –> 0:08:43.66 I don’t know pretty much 0:08:43.66 –> 0:08:44.644 anything about that. 0:08:44.65 –> 0:08:46.934 So in all of this, I mean, 0:08:46.934 –> 0:08:47.876 outside of creating, 0:08:47.876 –> 0:08:49.446 maybe the philosophy of writing 0:08:49.446 –> 0:08:50.9 or critiques of writing. 0:08:53.7 –> 0:08:56.172 When I’ve read some of your early books 0:08:56.172 –> 0:08:58.567 which I quite enjoyed thinking of, 0:08:58.57 –> 0:09:00.31 soul made flesh in particular, 0:09:00.31 –> 0:09:02.865 it seemed like you were trying to 0:09:02.865 –> 0:09:04.34 communicate something specific or 0:09:04.34 –> 0:09:06.224 teach something to an audience or 0:09:06.224 –> 0:09:07.969 expose an audience to something, 0:09:07.97 –> 0:09:10.051 and so that seems very different 0:09:10.051 –> 0:09:12.44 to me from make writing as a 0:09:12.44 –> 0:09:14.216 like a philosophical critique of 0:09:14.216 –> 0:09:15.966 who the author is disappearing. 0:09:15.97 –> 0:09:17.014 Or Oh yeah, 0:09:17.014 –> 0:09:17.71 no, it 0:09:17.71 –> 0:09:19.098 is very different, absolutely.

8 0:09:19.098 –> 0:09:20.833 So even at that time 0:09:20.84 –> 0:09:23.661 did you know that you wanted to 0:09:23.661 –> 0:09:25.798 express or? To uncover something, no. 0:09:25.8 –> 0:09:27.786 No look I was, you know, 0:09:27.79 –> 0:09:29.45 I’m like 18 years old. 0:09:29.45 –> 0:09:32.39 I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know. 0:09:32.39 –> 0:09:34.716 I’m just sort of groping around an 0:09:34.716 –> 0:09:37.089 learning about things for the first time. 0:09:37.09 –> 0:09:39.316 And and there were experiences I had 0:09:39.316 –> 0:09:41.435 in college that were great experiences 0:09:41.435 –> 0:09:43.637 that it didn’t appreciate into low 0:09:43.637 –> 0:09:45.717 as much older like Oh my gosh, 0:09:45.72 –> 0:09:48.708 like I got two study with say Vicki Hearne, 0:09:48.71 –> 0:09:51.027 who’s uh, was a wonderful essayist and 0:09:51.027 –> 0:09:53.688 poet Anne, who was really sort of like, 0:09:53.69 –> 0:09:55.4 you know, to nudge me. 0:09:55.4 –> 0:09:58.78 In some good directions. 0:09:58.78 –> 0:10:00.468 So yeah, I would. 0:10:00.47 –> 0:10:03.85 I would not read too much into my 0:10:03.85 –> 0:10:05.891 knowledge career, but you know, 0:10:05.891 –> 0:10:08.67 I think I would think like like 0:10:08.764 –> 0:10:11.466 a lot of journalists. You know. 0:10:11.466 –> 0:10:13.583 I was thinking that, oh, 0:10:13.583 –> 0:10:15.698 maybe I’ll be a novelist. 0:10:15.7 –> 0:10:18.654 You know, maybe that’s what I’ll do. 0:10:18.66 –> 0:10:21.614 You know, I would try things out. 0:10:21.62 –> 0:10:23.882 So one summer I worked this 0:10:23.882 –> 0:10:26.28 summer at our local newspaper, 0:10:26.28 –> 0:10:29.202 the 100 and County Democrat, which was. 0:10:29.202 –> 0:10:31.638 You know it’s a vanished thing, 0:10:31.64 –> 0:10:34.335 you know it was a local newspaper.

9 0:10:34.34 –> 0:10:37.028 Gosh, must have been at that point. 0:10:37.03 –> 0:10:40.11 Maybe 120 years old or something like that. 0:10:40.11 –> 0:10:42.42 And and with just, you know, 0:10:42.42 –> 0:10:45.22 full time staff of people who knew 0:10:45.22 –> 0:10:47.581 our region inside and out and 0:10:47.581 –> 0:10:49.735 would go to the town meetings, 0:10:49.74 –> 0:10:51.66 knew all the politics understood, 0:10:51.66 –> 0:10:53.164 how, how this place, 0:10:53.164 –> 0:10:55.42 which was still fairly rural then 0:10:55.497 –> 0:10:57.543 was about to be transformed into 0:10:57.543 –> 0:11:00.24 really more of a bedroom community. 0:11:00.24 –> 0:11:02.184 And the old ways were going 0:11:02.184 –> 0:11:03.48 to go away anyway. 0:11:03.48 –> 0:11:05.1 Fantastic experience learned a lot. 0:11:05.1 –> 0:11:06.72 That didn’t make me think. 0:11:06.72 –> 0:11:07.044 Oh, 0:11:07.044 –> 0:11:09.636 now I’m definitely going to be a journalist. 0:11:09.64 –> 0:11:12.12 I was still was still sort of floundering 0:11:12.12 –> 0:11:13.846 so but again, flounder goodbye. 0:11:13.846 –> 0:11:15.138 I’m curious about that. 0:11:15.14 –> 0:11:16.118 So this was 0:11:16.12 –> 0:11:17.444 a Democratic, politically affiliated. 0:11:17.444 –> 0:11:20 Now that’s just that’s just a very old 0:11:20 –> 0:11:22.596 name. 100 count. OK, so it’s not like 0:11:22.596 –> 0:11:24.216 it’s not a political publication. 0:11:24.216 –> 0:11:26.48 Who is the County newspaper? I was 0:11:26.48 –> 0:11:28.503 curious so your father was a politician 0:11:28.503 –> 0:11:30.911 or became a politician while you were 0:11:30.911 –> 0:11:32.766 in college or shortly thereafter. 0:11:32.77 –> 0:11:34.685 For the Republican Party and 0:11:34.685 –> 0:11:36.6 before then was very involved

10 0:11:36.669 –> 0:11:38.517 in these openness campaigns. 0:11:38.52 –> 0:11:40.99 This is all you know, the 0:11:40.99 –> 0:11:42.638 Gospel according to Wikipedia. 0:11:42.638 –> 0:11:45.51 All tray right? So I was curious 0:11:45.51 –> 0:11:48.774 also that sort of agenda of making the 0:11:48.774 –> 0:11:51.353 political process open to the public 0:11:51.353 –> 0:11:53.885 and giving people access to information 0:11:53.967 –> 0:11:55.786 that was previously, you know, 0:11:55.786 –> 0:11:58.66 with enclosed chambers or what have you, 0:11:58.66 –> 0:12:01.49 I’m that seemed to me. 0:12:01.49 –> 0:12:04.476 Can it be in line with the direction 0:12:04.476 –> 0:12:06.336 of making science more open? 0:12:06.34 –> 0:12:08.578 Kind of maybe laying a foundation 0:12:08.578 –> 0:12:09.697 maybe I’m reading 0:12:09.7 –> 0:12:12.24 too much in that also, well, 0:12:12.24 –> 0:12:15.64 I you know my father’s. 0:12:15.64 –> 0:12:19.68 Actually, when he was in college right now, 0:12:19.68 –> 0:12:23.215 right before he went to law school, 0:12:23.22 –> 0:12:27.329 I think one of his jobs was. 0:12:27.33 –> 0:12:30.698 As a Stringer for the AP, and so you know, 0:12:30.698 –> 0:12:32.383 he worked as a journalist. 0:12:32.39 –> 0:12:36.305 You know he decided to go to law school. 0:12:36.31 –> 0:12:38.296 And then eventually get into politics. 0:12:38.3 –> 0:12:40.19 But so he knew what journalism 0:12:40.19 –> 0:12:42.602 was about an I don’t, you know, 0:12:42.602 –> 0:12:44.919 I know people who where it’s like, 0:12:44.92 –> 0:12:46.9 you know, they’re sort of journalism, 0:12:46.9 –> 0:12:48.6 runs in the family. 0:12:48.6 –> 0:12:50.94 Almost like a dentisty or something 0:12:50.94 –> 0:12:53.96 wasn’t like that at my house, 0:12:53.96 –> 0:12:55.15 but certainly.

11 0:12:55.15 –> 0:12:57.694 My dad knew how you know the nuts 0:12:57.694 –> 0:12:59.951 and bolts of journalism work from 0:12:59.951 –> 0:13:02.754 the inside an I suppose that that 0:13:02.754 –> 0:13:04.829 that probably did influence him 0:13:04.829 –> 0:13:07.444 in his politics and that work he 0:13:07.444 –> 0:13:09.67 did because he was involved in the 0:13:09.745 –> 0:13:11.915 organization called Common Cause which 0:13:11.915 –> 0:13:14.882 pushed very much for open Ness and 0:13:14.882 –> 0:13:17.066 proceedings and records and so on. 0:13:17.07 –> 0:13:19.751 Sort of the predecessor to allow with 0:13:19.751 –> 0:13:22.367 our sunshine laws and she also helped. 0:13:22.37 –> 0:13:24.375 I believe in New Jersey. 0:13:24.375 –> 0:13:26.85 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so yeah. 0:13:26.85 –> 0:13:33.25 So you know he had a you know he had his. 0:13:33.25 –> 0:13:35.966 He was honestly kind of 0:13:35.966 –> 0:13:39.38 an odd fit in his party. 0:13:39.38 –> 0:13:42.108 And part of that was because he was. 0:13:42.11 –> 0:13:43.47 He had this very, 0:13:43.47 –> 0:13:43.81 very, 0:13:43.81 –> 0:13:45.515 very strong passion about openness 0:13:45.515 –> 0:13:46.197 and transparency, 0:13:46.2 –> 0:13:48.246 being one of his top priorities. 0:13:48.25 –> 0:13:50.49 Whereas you know a lot of politicians 0:13:50.49 –> 0:13:53.249 of any party would rather just sort of 0:13:53.249 –> 0:13:55.749 keep control over how things are moving. 0:13:55.75 –> 0:13:57.664 And part of that control means 0:13:57.664 –> 0:13:59.386 not letting other people knowing 0:13:59.386 –> 0:14:00.52 what you’re doing. 0:14:00.52 –> 0:14:02.23 Maybe that comes from journalism, 0:14:02.23 –> 0:14:03.25 I don’t know. 0:14:03.25 –> 0:14:05.978 So if I recall you graduated in 87.

12 0:14:05.98 –> 0:14:07.828 I was meeting your personal decision 0:14:07.828 –> 0:14:09.73 to become a science journalist. 0:14:09.83 –> 0:14:11.35 It wasn’t a personal decision, 0:14:11.35 –> 0:14:13.156 it was looking for a job. 0:14:13.16 –> 0:14:15.284 OK, again, we should move to that. 0:14:15.284 –> 0:14:16.5 Well, yeah, I mean, 0:14:16.5 –> 0:14:18.01 you know, like when, when? 0:14:18.01 –> 0:14:20.019 If you’re going to ask me about 0:14:20.019 –> 0:14:21.34 becoming a science writer. 0:14:21.34 –> 0:14:23.552 Don’t think that I would sort of 0:14:23.552 –> 0:14:25.784 on some mountain top saying like I 0:14:25.784 –> 0:14:27.946 have decided this is what I’m going 0:14:27.946 –> 0:14:30.122 to do and all you people make it 0:14:30.13 –> 0:14:31.039 possible for me. 0:14:31.039 –> 0:14:32.86 That’s not how it worked. Well 0:14:32.86 –> 0:14:34.974 tell me that story that sounds well. 0:14:34.98 –> 0:14:36.5 I graduated from college and 0:14:36.5 –> 0:14:38.619 I I did a variety of jobs. 0:14:38.62 –> 0:14:41.036 I worked as a Carpenter for a while. 0:14:41.04 –> 0:14:44.72 I was still. Thinking like. 0:14:44.72 –> 0:14:45.962 I had been writing some fiction 0:14:45.962 –> 0:14:47.18 in college and I thought, 0:14:47.18 –> 0:14:48.721 Oh well, maybe I should, just, 0:14:48.721 –> 0:14:51.668 you know, try my hand at this. 0:14:51.67 –> 0:14:54.022 And then my girlfriend at the time was 0:14:54.022 –> 0:14:56.499 going to be going into the peace core. 0:14:56.5 –> 0:14:58.411 Now I was living in Philadelphia and 0:14:58.411 –> 0:15:00.913 I was like I don’t really know it 0:15:00.913 –> 0:15:02.538 that many people in Philadelphia. 0:15:02.54 –> 0:15:05.036 So let me move to New York where 0:15:05.036 –> 0:15:07.847 some of my really good friends are.

13 0:15:07.85 –> 0:15:11.85 And find a job and. 0:15:11.85 –> 0:15:13.634 He you know, and it was sort of 0:15:13.634 –> 0:15:14.828 this combination of things that. 0:15:16.98 –> 0:15:19.524 You know trying to work as a Carpenter 0:15:19.524 –> 0:15:21.939 in New York is just ridiculous. 0:15:21.94 –> 0:15:24.86 What does that mean exactly? 0:15:24.86 –> 0:15:26.666 Renovating houses and things like that? 0:15:26.67 –> 0:15:29.379 Yeah, but it’s all union in New York City, 0:15:29.38 –> 0:15:31.482 so it’s just you know, somebody knows 0:15:31.482 –> 0:15:33.89 somebody and I’m just sort of showing up. 0:15:33.89 –> 0:15:36.9 And so I was like, Oh well, let’s do bad. 0:15:36.9 –> 0:15:37.84 So I needed something. 0:15:37.84 –> 0:15:40.778 And so I worked for a little while for a 0:15:40.778 –> 0:15:42.618 very very small environmental organization. 0:15:42.62 –> 0:15:45.028 Basically one person and I was the assistant. 0:15:45.03 –> 0:15:48.094 And then I just. I was also writing. 0:15:48.1 –> 0:15:50.218 And I was sort of deciding, 0:15:50.22 –> 0:15:52.22 you know, like this. 0:15:52.22 –> 0:15:55.22 Fiction is not really working because 0:15:55.314 –> 0:15:58.25 I don’t sort of feel this kind of. 0:15:58.25 –> 0:16:01.905 Natural urge or instinct to 0:16:01.905 –> 0:16:04.829 be telling stories about. 0:16:04.83 –> 0:16:06.979 People who just live in my head. 0:16:06.98 –> 0:16:08.822 I just it just wasn’t working 0:16:08.822 –> 0:16:09.745 as a psychiatrist. 0:16:09.745 –> 0:16:12.59 I think that’s healthy. 0:16:12.59 –> 0:16:14.32 Well, you know I am. 0:16:14.32 –> 0:16:16.532 I have great imagine a great respect 0:16:16.532 –> 0:16:18.313 for people with the imagination 0:16:18.313 –> 0:16:20.611 to just like Concocter world and 0:16:20.611 –> 0:16:22.599 be responsible for all the people,

14 0:16:22.6 –> 0:16:25.008 an incredible their histories and all that. 0:16:25.01 –> 0:16:26.738 Yeah, it’s a beautiful thing. 0:16:26.738 –> 0:16:27.77 But you know, 0:16:27.77 –> 0:16:29.84 like the people I would concoct, 0:16:29.84 –> 0:16:32.255 we’re just not that interesting to me. 0:16:32.26 –> 0:16:35.02 And so I was like looking around for, 0:16:35.02 –> 0:16:35.762 you know, 0:16:35.762 –> 0:16:38.359 just I’m just getting in touch with 0:16:38.359 –> 0:16:40.699 various places to look for work and 0:16:40.699 –> 0:16:43.437 one of the things that was like maybe. 0:16:43.44 –> 0:16:44.93 I should try to write, 0:16:44.93 –> 0:16:47.17 maybe should work at a magazine like just 0:16:47.17 –> 0:16:49.377 start out bottom of the rung somewhere. 0:16:49.38 –> 0:16:52.248 It’s a magazine and try to 0:16:52.248 –> 0:16:54.16 learn how this works. 0:16:54.16 –> 0:16:56.449 And there was an opening for an 0:16:56.449 –> 0:16:58.488 assistant copy editor at a magazine 0:16:58.488 –> 0:17:00.462 that happened to be about science, 0:17:00.47 –> 0:17:02.131 and I discovered there was 0:17:02.131 –> 0:17:04.117 Discover magazine an I went in, 0:17:04.12 –> 0:17:06.395 took the test and now super grateful 0:17:06.395 –> 0:17:09.1 to land that job and so started there. 0:17:09.1 –> 0:17:10.093 Just copy editing. 0:17:10.093 –> 0:17:11.086 In other words, 0:17:11.09 –> 0:17:13.076 just reading and reading and reading, 0:17:13.08 –> 0:17:14.085 and you know, 0:17:14.085 –> 0:17:16.095 looking for those little stray punctuation 0:17:16.095 –> 0:17:17.761 mistakes and spelling mistakes that 0:17:17.761 –> 0:17:19.39 could just screw everything up. 0:17:19.39 –> 0:17:21.38 And you know this is right 0:17:21.38 –> 0:17:22.708 before computers kicked in,

15 0:17:22.71 –> 0:17:23.858 so it will really. 0:17:23.858 –> 0:17:25.293 It was incumbent on the 0:17:25.293 –> 0:17:26.618 copy editors to catch 0:17:26.62 –> 0:17:27.826 everything else quickly. 0:17:27.826 –> 0:17:29.4 Red line. Underneath right 0:17:29.4 –> 0:17:30.944 now it’s quickly redline. 0:17:30.944 –> 0:17:34.808 Yet yeah, we just just on the edge of that. 0:17:34.81 –> 0:17:37.078 So anyway, so that’s how I really 0:17:37.078 –> 0:17:39.439 stumbled into a science publication. 0:17:39.44 –> 0:17:42.528 And then they after awhile they said hey, 0:17:42.53 –> 0:17:45.995 why don’t you want to also try fact checking, 0:17:46 –> 0:17:47.875 which is another really important 0:17:47.875 –> 0:17:50.629 component of putting out a big magazine. 0:17:50.63 –> 0:17:53.332 And so I did that and find 0:17:53.332 –> 0:17:54.49 it totally fascinating. 0:17:54.49 –> 0:17:57.58 And what was fascinating about it. 0:17:57.58 –> 0:18:00.58 Well, just to back up to being a copy editor, 0:18:00.58 –> 0:18:02.956 I was reading these articles that it was 0:18:02.956 –> 0:18:05.479 kind of hard to copy it at them because 0:18:05.479 –> 0:18:08.079 I just kept getting so absorbed in them. 0:18:08.08 –> 0:18:10.48 It was so interesting what I was learning, 0:18:10.48 –> 0:18:12.811 and so I was happy that I was at 0:18:12.811 –> 0:18:15.277 a place where I could read it. 0:18:15.28 –> 0:18:17.08 Things that I really enjoy it. 0:18:17.08 –> 0:18:19.18 You know, I wasn’t writing for some, 0:18:19.18 –> 0:18:21.28 you know, I wasn’t like at a 0:18:21.28 –> 0:18:22.48 trade magazine for accountants. 0:18:22.48 –> 0:18:24.88 You know that would just not be that 0:18:24.88 –> 0:18:26.38 interesting to me. Shower someone. 0:18:26.38 –> 0:18:28.18 Oh sure, no nothing against accounts, 0:18:28.18 –> 0:18:30.777 but it wouldn’t be for me so.

16 0:18:30.78 –> 0:18:33.35 So I. 0:18:33.35 –> 0:18:35.961 So I was really enjoying being in 0:18:35.961 –> 0:18:38.445 that environment and I think it was 0:18:38.445 –> 0:18:40.389 partly because I had always been 0:18:40.465 –> 0:18:42.493 interested in science and I was 0:18:42.493 –> 0:18:45.989 like this is this is great and. 0:18:45.99 –> 0:18:50.495 Fact checking is what happens 0:18:50.495 –> 0:18:55 after an article is edited. 0:18:55 –> 0:18:57.076 The fact Checker receives the edited 0:18:57.076 –> 0:18:59.21 manuscript and all of the transcripts 0:18:59.21 –> 0:19:01.28 and reference material and a list 0:19:01.28 –> 0:19:03.351 of phone numbers and addresses to 0:19:03.351 –> 0:19:05.319 get in contact with people who 0:19:05.32 –> 0:19:07.04 were interviewed for the story. 0:19:07.04 –> 0:19:09.28 And it’s your job to make sure 0:19:09.28 –> 0:19:11.769 that what’s on the page in the 0:19:11.769 –> 0:19:13.225 printed magazine is true, 0:19:13.23 –> 0:19:16.63 so you get you don’t have to like. 0:19:16.63 –> 0:19:20.278 Write a feature article from scratch. 0:19:20.28 –> 0:19:23.437 You can see how an incredibly talented 0:19:23.437 –> 0:19:26.848 writer did that and you see how the 0:19:26.848 –> 0:19:29.754 pieces got put together and you can 0:19:29.754 –> 0:19:32.743 also find the places where it’s wrong. 0:19:32.75 –> 0:19:36.314 And so I think fact checking is just such 0:19:36.314 –> 0:19:40.484 a great way to learn how to do journalism. 0:19:40.49 –> 0:19:42.104 I mean, 0:19:42.104 –> 0:19:43.718 I think. 0:19:43.72 –> 0:19:44.466 You know, 0:19:44.466 –> 0:19:47.028 I honestly like that is a lot 0:19:47.028 –> 0:19:49.746 better than paying a lot of money 0:19:49.746 –> 0:19:51.651 to go to journalism school.

17 0:19:51.66 –> 0:19:52.416 Honestly, interesting, 0:19:52.416 –> 0:19:53.928 that’s like the equivalent 0:19:53.93 –> 0:19:55.386 of starting a business. 0:19:55.386 –> 0:19:58.08 Instead of getting an MBA I guess. 0:20:00.18 –> 0:20:02.46 Or you will, but not starting it on your own. 0:20:02.46 –> 0:20:03.6 And just like you know, 0:20:03.6 –> 0:20:04.508 somebody starting starting the 0:20:04.508 –> 0:20:05.643 business and saying like look, 0:20:05.65 –> 0:20:07.474 I’m going to be right next to me. 0:20:07.48 –> 0:20:09.94 You can see everything I do. 0:20:09.94 –> 0:20:12.444 And you know you’re not going to get 0:20:12.444 –> 0:20:14.968 in big trouble for those things, 0:20:14.97 –> 0:20:16.402 but you have responsibilities 0:20:16.402 –> 0:20:17.834 to that like that, 0:20:17.84 –> 0:20:19.63 though, that’s how it was. 0:20:19.63 –> 0:20:20.35 Here’s something 0:20:20.35 –> 0:20:22.468 I’ve wondered also an I hear 0:20:22.468 –> 0:20:24.3 about fact checking as well, 0:20:24.3 –> 0:20:26.454 and I think about two pieces 0:20:26.454 –> 0:20:27.89 fact checked before an. 0:20:27.89 –> 0:20:29.69 There are some things that. 0:20:33.94 –> 0:20:35.669 Some types of evidence, 0:20:35.669 –> 0:20:39.548 or some types of claims, seem to be very. 0:20:39.548 –> 0:20:43.01 Seem to lend themselves well to checking, 0:20:43.01 –> 0:20:45.05 but then there are scientific 0:20:45.05 –> 0:20:47.09 controversies about which you’ve written, 0:20:47.09 –> 0:20:49.364 and so I’m curious how something 0:20:49.364 –> 0:20:51.57 like that is fact checked. 0:20:51.57 –> 0:20:53.856 Like how did you navigate a 0:20:53.856 –> 0:20:55.38 controversial topic where both 0:20:55.453 –> 0:20:57.688 sides have different truth claims?

18 0:20:59.37 –> 0:21:02.046 Well, you just familiarize yourself with 0:21:02.046 –> 0:21:05.265 sort of what their written statements on 0:21:05.265 –> 0:21:08.436 that controversy you talked to them on 0:21:08.517 –> 0:21:11.387 the phone to make sure you understand. 0:21:11.39 –> 0:21:14.042 Just serve the broad outlines of 0:21:14.042 –> 0:21:17.38 why they stake out their particular. 0:21:17.38 –> 0:21:19.68 Viewpoint on this and. 0:21:19.68 –> 0:21:22.048 You know, really? Like again, 0:21:22.048 –> 0:21:24.484 because it’s fact checking like it’s 0:21:24.484 –> 0:21:27.331 not your job to write the whole article 0:21:27.331 –> 0:21:29.71 and and decide what goes in there. 0:21:29.71 –> 0:21:31.93 You you really are constrained to, 0:21:31.93 –> 0:21:35.01 like, say like is what is on the 0:21:35.01 –> 0:21:37.118 page accurate is it? And you? 0:21:37.118 –> 0:21:39.362 It’s not just saying oh this 0:21:39.362 –> 0:21:41.547 should be 32 instead of 35. 0:21:41.55 –> 0:21:45.108 You can say like well actually. 0:21:45.11 –> 0:21:47.486 This the writer is saying that 0:21:47.486 –> 0:21:49.4 there’s this huge controversy and. 0:21:49.4 –> 0:21:51 Everything that I see indicates 0:21:51 –> 0:21:52.984 that it’s just this one crank 0:21:52.984 –> 0:21:54.928 who is yelling at everybody else, 0:21:54.93 –> 0:21:56.55 and that’s a different thing. 0:21:56.55 –> 0:21:59.17 And you know that goes into into the 0:21:59.17 –> 0:22:01.15 fact checking report and then the 0:22:01.22 –> 0:22:03.7 editor has to decide to make that call. 0:22:03.7 –> 0:22:05.33 Like how am I going? 0:22:05.33 –> 0:22:08.2 How am I going to take this 0:22:08.2 –> 0:22:09.43 fact checking report? 0:22:09.43 –> 0:22:11.27 Anne and fix this story. 0:22:13.16 –> 0:22:13.87 Just saying.

19 0:22:16.7 –> 0:22:18.59 So you did well then? 0:22:18.59 –> 0:22:20.165 At discover, and then you 0:22:20.165 –> 0:22:21.75 eventually became that editor. Yes, 0:22:21.75 –> 0:22:22.608 fact, checking, right? 0:22:22.608 –> 0:22:25.23 So I got to go from fact checking. 0:22:25.23 –> 0:22:27.12 They would add on like OK, 0:22:27.12 –> 0:22:29.016 well now why don’t you help? 0:22:29.02 –> 0:22:30.808 Write some of the little stories 0:22:30.808 –> 0:22:32.809 at the beginning of the magazine, 0:22:32.81 –> 0:22:35.106 so there were maybe four or five of 0:22:35.106 –> 0:22:37.589 us sort of junior staff who and every 0:22:37.589 –> 0:22:40.245 month each of us write a couple of 0:22:40.245 –> 0:22:42.8 these short pieces in addition to our 0:22:42.8 –> 0:22:45.86 fact checking and other responsibilities and. 0:22:45.86 –> 0:22:48.244 So there you know, and then you start 0:22:48.244 –> 0:22:50.85 to learn how to actually write a piece. 0:22:50.85 –> 0:22:53.39 You know I had to find the idea how to 0:22:53.462 –> 0:22:57.05 interview people, an assemble a story an. 0:22:57.05 –> 0:23:01.178 After a while I was just I was 0:23:01.178 –> 0:23:05.568 writing a lot and got promoted and. 0:23:05.57 –> 0:23:07.486 The. At the magazine, 0:23:07.486 –> 0:23:11.494 you know the the main focus that people 0:23:11.494 –> 0:23:15.638 had was on the sort of editorial process, 0:23:15.64 –> 0:23:18.574 so managing stories, managing it from 0:23:18.574 –> 0:23:21.43 the beginning from the proposals. 0:23:21.43 –> 0:23:25.19 To assigning the art to getting the stories. 0:23:25.19 –> 0:23:28.01 In fact, checking and all the 0:23:28.01 –> 0:23:29.89 rest and then production. 0:23:29.89 –> 0:23:33.22 So I was. 0:23:33.22 –> 0:23:35.146 Really working hard as I was, 0:23:35.15 –> 0:23:35.978 you know,

20 0:23:35.978 –> 0:23:38.048 becoming an associate editor and 0:23:38.048 –> 0:23:40.338 then senior editor to stake out 0:23:40.338 –> 0:23:42.282 time that I could still write. 0:23:42.29 –> 0:23:45.066 So I when I was I was sitting 0:23:45.066 –> 0:23:47.289 under there for like 4 years. 0:23:47.29 –> 0:23:49.866 I think an I’d say it was about 0:23:49.866 –> 0:23:52.288 half and half half editing and 0:23:52.29 –> 0:23:55.21 half writing. So in all of this you 0:23:55.21 –> 0:23:57.995 were picking topics on your own or were 0:23:58 –> 0:24:00.016 they? I don’t know how it 0:24:00.016 –> 0:24:01.93 works so mostly mostly mostly. 0:24:01.93 –> 0:24:04.048 I was looking for story ideas 0:24:04.048 –> 0:24:06.947 because that’s a lot of work and so 0:24:06.947 –> 0:24:09.065 you know editors would rather that. 0:24:09.07 –> 0:24:10.574 Their writers do that 0:24:10.574 –> 0:24:12.454 work of finding the ideas. 0:24:12.46 –> 0:24:14.692 And pitching and the idea is 0:24:14.692 –> 0:24:17.339 to them and then they can say, 0:24:17.34 –> 0:24:19.59 like yeah, we I like this. 0:24:19.59 –> 0:24:20.55 I like this. 0:24:20.55 –> 0:24:22.79 I like this and then get make 0:24:22.87 –> 0:24:24.09 the assignments. 0:24:24.09 –> 0:24:25.822 Sometimes something would happen 0:24:25.822 –> 0:24:29.13 and you would just get just be told 0:24:29.13 –> 0:24:31.349 like OK you have to write about 0:24:31.349 –> 0:24:33.84 this but I’d say the vast majority 0:24:33.84 –> 0:24:35.725 was Gen itself generated so 0:24:35.725 –> 0:24:37.96 around that time where you also 0:24:37.96 –> 0:24:39.253 beginning your books. 0:24:39.253 –> 0:24:41.839 Yeah so I would say that 0:24:41.839 –> 0:24:44.337 I guess in 1996 or so I.

21 0:24:44.34 –> 0:24:46.996 Started to get the book bug book bug. 0:24:47 –> 0:24:49.317 Yeah, well, you know I was I, 0:24:49.32 –> 0:24:51.306 you know I was, you know, 0:24:51.31 –> 0:24:52.882 reading lots of books just on 0:24:52.882 –> 0:24:55.123 my own time and and there was 0:24:55.123 –> 0:24:56.635 something special about books 0:24:56.635 –> 0:24:58.52 that’s very different than a 0:24:58.52 –> 0:24:59.892 magazine feature and something 0:24:59.892 –> 0:25:03.41 very attractive to me about that. 0:25:03.41 –> 0:25:04.24 And then. 0:25:07.47 –> 0:25:09.9 You know, I would write these 0:25:09.9 –> 0:25:12.172 features and just be gathering 0:25:12.172 –> 0:25:15.007 huge amounts of information and. 0:25:15.01 –> 0:25:17.254 Some of that information would go 0:25:17.254 –> 0:25:19.999 into this 4000 or 5000 word piece, 0:25:20 –> 0:25:21.92 which is a big piece, 0:25:21.92 –> 0:25:24.968 but then there’d be a lot more there 0:25:24.968 –> 0:25:27.676 was left out and it was always, 0:25:27.68 –> 0:25:29.6 always kind of frustrating because 0:25:29.6 –> 0:25:31.908 I sort of felt like, well, 0:25:31.908 –> 0:25:34.624 the real story is bigger and more 0:25:34.624 –> 0:25:37.173 interesting and so then a friend of 0:25:37.173 –> 0:25:39.35 mine named Steven Morrow was getting 0:25:39.35 –> 0:25:41.804 into book publishing and decided he 0:25:41.804 –> 0:25:45.85 wanted to edit science books and so he. 0:25:45.85 –> 0:25:47.272 Said he was very encouraging when 0:25:47.272 –> 0:25:48.48 I would complain about that. 0:25:48.48 –> 0:25:49.67 He’s like, well, you know, 0:25:49.67 –> 0:25:51.59 why don’t you write a proposal 0:25:51.59 –> 0:25:52.55 about something that. 0:25:52.55 –> 0:25:54.932 Comes out of the stuff you’re

22 0:25:54.932 –> 0:25:57.3 writing and I’ll be happy to 0:25:57.3 –> 0:25:59.37 show it to my bosses and. 0:25:59.37 –> 0:26:02.034 Yeah, and so before I knew it he came 0:26:02.034 –> 0:26:04.33 back and said yeah, they like it. 0:26:04.33 –> 0:26:06.5 So you should go get an agent. 0:26:06.5 –> 0:26:09.29 So that was my first book called At the 0:26:09.29 –> 0:26:10.22 Waters Edge, Right? 0:26:10.22 –> 0:26:12.39 So how is that process different then? 0:26:12.39 –> 0:26:13.242 So I’m imagining. 0:26:13.242 –> 0:26:15.8 So if you’re writing a piece for discover, 0:26:15.8 –> 0:26:18.28 that’s 5000 words, you can ask very space, 0:26:18.28 –> 0:26:18.976 limited question. 0:26:18.976 –> 0:26:21.76 Imagine in my head so that means you 0:26:21.832 –> 0:26:24.472 have to be able to wrap up in 5000 words, 0:26:24.48 –> 0:26:27.58 whereas some of your books. 0:26:27.58 –> 0:26:30.97 Ask very minimal, I’m thinking like. 0:26:30.97 –> 0:26:34.169 I can just reference soul made flesh. 0:26:34.17 –> 0:26:36.93 You know the history of essentially 0:26:36.93 –> 0:26:39.553 neuroscience and how we came to 0:26:39.553 –> 0:26:41.659 view what the brain is like. 0:26:41.66 –> 0:26:44.34 It’s very philosophical, very. 0:26:44.34 –> 0:26:45.01 I don’t 0:26:45.01 –> 0:26:47.038 want to say tedious in a 0:26:47.04 –> 0:26:48.72 boring sense, but like involved. 0:26:48.72 –> 0:26:50.688 It’s a very involved topic and 0:26:50.688 –> 0:26:53.099 so I’m curious if these were two, 0:26:53.1 –> 0:26:55.12 like different types of like 0:26:55.12 –> 0:26:57.14 mental muscles you were working 0:26:57.216 –> 0:26:59.502 out and you felt a need to do both 0:26:59.51 –> 0:27:01.698 at the same time. 0:27:01.698 –> 0:27:05.084 I have always enjoyed. Mixing it up.

23 0:27:05.084 –> 0:27:06.676 Books are very different 0:27:06.676 –> 0:27:08.52 experience than writing features, 0:27:08.52 –> 0:27:11.616 which are a very different experience 0:27:11.616 –> 0:27:14.41 from writing thousand word columns. 0:27:14.41 –> 0:27:17.207 An you know there are even other 0:27:17.207 –> 0:27:20 kinds of things that you can do, 0:27:20 –> 0:27:23.224 and so I do like you know the 0:27:23.224 –> 0:27:26.43 I like the variety in terms 0:27:26.43 –> 0:27:29.856 of how the book process works. 0:27:29.86 –> 0:27:32.584 Sometimes they sort of emerge out 0:27:32.584 –> 0:27:35.779 of magazine work or newspaper work. 0:27:35.78 –> 0:27:38.316 You just realize, oh, 0:27:38.316 –> 0:27:42.12 this is there’s a book here. 0:27:42.12 –> 0:27:43.968 But then other times I’ve just said, 0:27:43.97 –> 0:27:45.762 like you know, I’ve finished a book 0:27:45.762 –> 0:27:47.927 and I’d like to write another one now. 0:27:47.93 –> 0:27:50.42 And you know what kind of? 0:27:50.42 –> 0:27:52.19 Question do I have that? 0:27:52.19 –> 0:27:53.267 Might be interesting. 0:27:53.267 –> 0:27:56.192 So with soul made flesh you know I 0:27:56.192 –> 0:27:58.226 thought well be interesting to write 0:27:58.226 –> 0:28:01.006 a book about the brain but you know 0:28:01.006 –> 0:28:03.477 there’s so many books about the brain, 0:28:03.48 –> 0:28:05.73 Ann and so many incredibly talented 0:28:05.73 –> 0:28:07.945 writers who are just just really 0:28:07.945 –> 0:28:10.185 doing a great job in this area. 0:28:10.19 –> 0:28:12.272 So I don’t want to replicate 0:28:12.272 –> 0:28:14.07 what they have already done. 0:28:14.07 –> 0:28:17.672 And so I thought, well, you know, is there. 0:28:17.672 –> 0:28:19.504 Is there a question? 0:28:19.51 –> 0:28:23.922 That I have that I haven’t really

24 0:28:23.922 –> 0:28:26.21 had answered by these books. 0:28:26.21 –> 0:28:28.906 An I just was I remembered is walking 0:28:28.906 –> 0:28:31.637 along one day and I was like you 0:28:31.637 –> 0:28:33.749 know I it’s interesting that I am, 0:28:33.75 –> 0:28:34.302 you know, 0:28:34.302 –> 0:28:36.51 I know that I am thinking in my 0:28:36.581 –> 0:28:38.733 brain and I had this voice in my 0:28:38.733 –> 0:28:41.04 head is you know this interaction 0:28:41.04 –> 0:28:43.16 between neurons like that’s where 0:28:43.16 –> 0:28:46.362 the action is that it’s and that you 0:28:46.362 –> 0:28:49.75 know this is what my brain is for an. 0:28:49.75 –> 0:28:51.61 You know, like it’s not, 0:28:51.61 –> 0:28:53.84 it’s not a self evident thing. 0:28:53.84 –> 0:28:54.932 No at all. 0:28:54.932 –> 0:28:58.309 So when did people start to think that way? 0:28:58.31 –> 0:29:00.914 And so that sort of framed some 0:29:00.914 –> 0:29:03.529 research I did just reading the 0:29:03.529 –> 0:29:05.879 work of historians of science 0:29:05.879 –> 0:29:08.439 people like Stanley Finger and. 0:29:08.44 –> 0:29:10.072 And just start going, 0:29:10.072 –> 0:29:11.708 going around, looking around, 0:29:11.708 –> 0:29:14.98 going back and forth and and you know, 0:29:14.98 –> 0:29:17.703 there was this fascinating period in the 0:29:17.703 –> 0:29:20.709 1600s that I’d never heard about before. 0:29:20.71 –> 0:29:23.158 And you had people like Descartes, 0:29:23.16 –> 0:29:25.21 who lots of heard of. 0:29:25.21 –> 0:29:28.087 But then there are people like Thomas 0:29:28.087 –> 0:29:30.939 Willis that I had never heard of. 0:29:30.94 –> 0:29:31.778 You know, 0:29:31.778 –> 0:29:34.292 he wrote the first book about 0:29:34.292 –> 0:29:36.248 the brain and an like.

25 0:29:36.25 –> 0:29:39.77 Who is this person and? 0:29:39.77 –> 0:29:41.7 And you know just realizing, 0:29:41.7 –> 0:29:42.78 oh I’m really. 0:29:42.78 –> 0:29:46.583 This is a big area and in the more I 0:29:46.583 –> 0:29:49.81 find out about the more excited I get, 0:29:49.81 –> 0:29:51.735 that’s usually my signal that 0:29:51.735 –> 0:29:54.05 there’s a book there. Oh yeah, 0:29:54.05 –> 0:29:56.745 I remember my member reading your book, 0:29:56.75 –> 0:29:59.096 being very excited about how unintuitive 0:29:59.096 –> 0:30:02.16 it was and how long it took people. 0:30:02.16 –> 0:30:03.704 Just even functional localization 0:30:03.704 –> 0:30:06.02 to the cortex of the brain, 0:30:06.02 –> 0:30:07.18 took decades, centuries. 0:30:07.18 –> 0:30:09.55 So that was very exciting and. 0:30:09.55 –> 0:30:12.437 It occurs to me also that you know going 0:30:12.437 –> 0:30:15.18 back to what is what is science question. 0:30:16.92 –> 0:30:18.97 This is like an intellectual 0:30:18.97 –> 0:30:21.418 history of science and I’m curious. 0:30:21.42 –> 0:30:23.868 I’m curious how you arrived at. 0:30:23.87 –> 0:30:26.734 You have a timeline approach to that. 0:30:26.734 –> 0:30:29.6 Was your idea to chart that intellectual 0:30:29.6 –> 0:30:32.46 history or just to ask the question? 0:30:32.46 –> 0:30:35.738 Almost as if you were performing your own 0:30:35.738 –> 0:30:38.594 empirical investigation of what did it take? 0:30:38.6 –> 0:30:41.14 What were the ingredients involved 0:30:41.14 –> 0:30:44.01 to understand that the brain is? 0:30:44.01 –> 0:30:45.878 I’d like to see if consciousness whatever. 0:30:46.52 –> 0:30:49.71 Well, I think that you know the lot of times 0:30:49.782 –> 0:30:52.896 you know the best way to answer a question. 0:30:52.9 –> 0:30:55.798 Like when did we start thinking about 0:30:55.798 –> 0:30:59.007 the brain as the brain is is in the

26 0:30:59.007 –> 0:31:01.759 form of a story you know because. 0:31:01.76 –> 0:31:04.913 You know? I can say, well, you know, 0:31:04.913 –> 0:31:08.047 you can really say that it was time as 0:31:08.047 –> 0:31:10.719 well as who who took that first step. 0:31:10.72 –> 0:31:13.01 But that naturally raises the 0:31:13.01 –> 0:31:16.19 question of well, why him and why 0:31:16.19 –> 0:31:19.44 then and then you have to say, 0:31:19.44 –> 0:31:22.16 well, OK, so we gotta. 0:31:22.16 –> 0:31:25.048 We gotta start this story a couple 1000 0:31:25.048 –> 0:31:27.279 years earlier and we have chickens here. 0:31:27.28 –> 0:31:28.98 Alright, talk about the Egyptians. 0:31:28.98 –> 0:31:30.69 We gotta talk about Aristotle, 0:31:30.69 –> 0:31:33.372 talk about Galen Duckball that and 0:31:33.372 –> 0:31:36.59 then we have to talk about how. 0:31:36.59 –> 0:31:39.702 You know in Europe it took a little 0:31:39.702 –> 0:31:43.05 while to re discover all of them and. 0:31:43.05 –> 0:31:46.083 They got rediscovered in a way that you know, 0:31:46.09 –> 0:31:47.137 to some extent, 0:31:47.137 –> 0:31:49.58 was almost like a like a religion 0:31:49.66 –> 0:31:52.34 that you just you took what they said 0:31:52.34 –> 0:31:54.972 as gospel and who were you to try 0:31:54.972 –> 0:31:57.241 to find new evidence of your own. 0:31:57.241 –> 0:31:57.578 You 0:31:57.58 –> 0:31:59.27 sound like Galen and reading 0:31:59.27 –> 0:32:00.96 from the text, or yeah, 0:32:00.96 –> 0:32:02.988 well, you know. I mean, literally. 0:32:02.988 –> 0:32:04.678 Some people would say well, 0:32:04.68 –> 0:32:05.694 Aristotle and Galen. 0:32:05.694 –> 0:32:08.064 They lived along time ago. They were. 0:32:08.064 –> 0:32:09.749 They lived closer to creation, 0:32:09.75 –> 0:32:12.89 to the Garden of Eden.

27 0:32:12.89 –> 0:32:15.515 This man has been in this fall. 0:32:15.52 –> 0:32:17.776 Their knowledge is closer to perfection, 0:32:17.78 –> 0:32:19.148 way closer than yours. 0:32:19.148 –> 0:32:22.095 So who are you to think that you 0:32:22.095 –> 0:32:24.549 could say that Aristotle was wrong? 0:32:24.55 –> 0:32:29.707 I mean you see people like just writing that. 0:32:29.71 –> 0:32:30.988 It’s just it’s on the page, 0:32:30.99 –> 0:32:32.509 but you know there were obviously people 0:32:32.509 –> 0:32:33.969 who were like then you know that. 0:32:33.97 –> 0:32:35.794 Thanks, but I’m going to try to figure 0:32:35.794 –> 0:32:37.656 this stuff out of my own, you know. 0:32:37.656 –> 0:32:39.068 Leonardo Davinci was not 0:32:39.068 –> 0:32:40.89 going to just sit back. 0:32:40.89 –> 0:32:42.99 And so, so you suddenly, 0:32:42.99 –> 0:32:45.08 in order to just ask, 0:32:45.08 –> 0:32:46.752 well, why Thomas Willis, 0:32:46.752 –> 0:32:47.588 why 1660, 0:32:47.59 –> 0:32:49.69 you have to answer other 0:32:49.69 –> 0:32:51.37 questions and you have. 0:32:51.37 –> 0:32:54.296 Basically you find yourself telling a story. 0:32:54.3 –> 0:32:57.226 So that’s I guess that’s where your 0:32:57.23 –> 0:33:00.206 hook into this story comes in in terms 0:33:00.206 –> 0:33:03.098 of being able to publish something. 0:33:03.1 –> 0:33:05.614 So imagining so one of the 0:33:05.614 –> 0:33:07.29 questions I wondered when. 0:33:09.38 –> 0:33:11.294 When I was reading that book 0:33:11.294 –> 0:33:13.48 or even your more recent book, 0:33:13.48 –> 0:33:15.19 she has her mother’s laugh. 0:33:15.19 –> 0:33:17.242 Is you have such an exhaustive 0:33:17.242 –> 0:33:18.61 knowledge of these subjects? 0:33:18.61 –> 0:33:20.602 Anne, how does someone

28 0:33:20.602 –> 0:33:22.594 with that knowledge base? 0:33:22.6 –> 0:33:25.225 Become a journalist or become a writer 0:33:25.225 –> 0:33:27.102 versus become an active scientist. 0:33:27.102 –> 0:33:28.98 And like perform the experiments 0:33:28.98 –> 0:33:30.476 versus right about them. 0:33:30.476 –> 0:33:32.812 And so it seems like you are 0:33:32.812 –> 0:33:34.64 more interested in the telling 0:33:34.64 –> 0:33:36.845 of talking about science then. 0:33:38.22 –> 0:33:39.978 You know I have had this. 0:33:39.98 –> 0:33:42.356 You know, my own particular path and I 0:33:42.356 –> 0:33:44.956 can’t sort of generalize it an I can’t say, 0:33:44.96 –> 0:33:47.381 oh, this is the path that I decided I 0:33:47.381 –> 0:33:50.031 was going to take an I’m not saying that 0:33:50.031 –> 0:33:52.577 this is what other people have to do. 0:33:52.58 –> 0:33:54.692 It just so happened that I was an 0:33:54.692 –> 0:33:56.68 English major with interest in science. 0:33:56.68 –> 0:33:58.724 Stumbled into a job writing about science, 0:33:58.73 –> 0:34:01.22 which is happens to be a great way to get 0:34:01.281 –> 0:34:03.71 a sort of lifelong education in science. 0:34:03.71 –> 0:34:04.589 And that’s it. 0:34:04.59 –> 0:34:06.948 Sounds totally cool. 0:34:06.95 –> 0:34:08.576 I’m grateful every day for it, 0:34:08.58 –> 0:34:10.26 except those days when I can’t figure 0:34:10.26 –> 0:34:12.388 out how to solve some writing problem. 0:34:12.39 –> 0:34:13.478 Then I get angry. 0:34:14.91 –> 0:34:16.41 Walk around the block 0:34:16.41 –> 0:34:17.91 or something yeah, on 0:34:17.91 –> 0:34:20.16 Twitter so that kid found the 0:34:20.16 –> 0:34:22.008 fire. I’m afraid one of the 0:34:22.008 –> 0:34:23.745 really big debates in history 0:34:23.745 –> 0:34:26.349 of neuroscience was where do we

29 0:34:26.349 –> 0:34:28.035 localize behavioral function, right? 0:34:28.035 –> 0:34:30.66 So, is it ventricle is the white 0:34:30.66 –> 0:34:32.969 matter is the grey matter until 0:34:32.969 –> 0:34:35.543 there are these huge debates and 0:34:35.543 –> 0:34:37.659 everyone had their own thing? 0:34:37.66 –> 0:34:39.67 Green and turned out none of 0:34:39.67 –> 0:34:41.62 them were really that correct, 0:34:41.62 –> 0:34:44.014 but people did a lot of work 0:34:44.014 –> 0:34:46.658 on it all at the same time, 0:34:46.66 –> 0:34:49.402 and I find that in many 0:34:49.402 –> 0:34:50.773 scientific communities there 0:34:50.773 –> 0:34:53.07 similar conversations going on. 0:34:53.07 –> 0:34:55.249 And I’m curious ’cause you get 0:34:55.25 –> 0:34:57.422 to like sample all of these 0:34:57.422 –> 0:34:58.146 different communities. 0:34:58.15 –> 0:35:02.146 You know in your column and. 0:35:02.15 –> 0:35:05.43 I’m curious if you see like this repeating. 0:35:05.43 –> 0:35:07.526 Of you know that. 0:35:07.526 –> 0:35:10.146 This sort of controversy that. 0:35:10.15 –> 0:35:11.806 No one really knows the answer, 0:35:11.81 –> 0:35:12.918 but everyone’s very convinced. 0:35:14.75 –> 0:35:17.81 Well, I think that. 0:35:17.81 –> 0:35:23.461 Would scientists? Really value is. 0:35:23.461 –> 0:35:26.87 A way of addressing something in the 0:35:26.971 –> 0:35:30.513 natural world that let’s them get at 0:35:30.513 –> 0:35:34.057 least some answers you know so you know, 0:35:34.06 –> 0:35:38.99 no model of the world is going to be perfect. 0:35:38.99 –> 0:35:43.328 Anne Anne Anne. But you know, 0:35:43.33 –> 0:35:45.568 imperfect models can be good enough 0:35:45.568 –> 0:35:48.458 to let you find out something new. 0:35:48.46 –> 0:35:51.528 So you know it.

30 0:35:51.53 –> 0:35:55.175 Let’s take you know two models of the brain. 0:35:55.18 –> 0:35:57.2 For example, the model that. 0:35:59.26 –> 0:36:01.556 The brain is phlegm and that all that 0:36:01.556 –> 0:36:03.951 matters is that there are these giant 0:36:03.951 –> 0:36:05.711 empty chambers inside your head. 0:36:05.72 –> 0:36:07.658 An animal spirits surged through them. 0:36:07.66 –> 0:36:09.879 OK, you’ve got that model and then 0:36:09.879 –> 0:36:12.178 you got this model that says no. 0:36:12.18 –> 0:36:13.96 Actually it’s the brain itself 0:36:13.96 –> 0:36:15.74 where memory and passions and 0:36:15.805 –> 0:36:17.347 all the rest are play out. 0:36:19.89 –> 0:36:21.015 That’s a really. 0:36:21.015 –> 0:36:23.265 That second thing is really simplistic, 0:36:23.27 –> 0:36:25.741 but it’s a lot better than thinking 0:36:25.741 –> 0:36:28.217 that it’s the ventricles where thought 0:36:28.217 –> 0:36:31.346 happens and and you know you’re going 0:36:31.419 –> 0:36:34.209 to be able to find more out about the 0:36:34.209 –> 0:36:36.893 brain if you have that model about the 0:36:36.893 –> 0:36:39.458 brain instead of the ventricles, so. 0:36:39.458 –> 0:36:41.648 So I don’t, you know, 0:36:41.65 –> 0:36:43.575 I don’t think any scientist claims like. 0:36:43.58 –> 0:36:45.89 I have it all figured out. 0:36:45.89 –> 0:36:48.2 Or oh, this model explains everything. 0:36:48.2 –> 0:36:50.004 Usually what you’ll find 0:36:50.004 –> 0:36:52.259 is people will say well. 0:36:52.26 –> 0:36:54.164 OK look, I know that this is sort 0:36:54.164 –> 0:36:56.587 of a simplified version of reality, 0:36:56.59 –> 0:36:58.753 but it’s a lot better than what 0:36:58.753 –> 0:37:00.823 those people got, so you know, 0:37:00.823 –> 0:37:03.49 I guess when we one thing that 0:37:03.579 –> 0:37:06.057 comes to mind is the genome.

31 0:37:06.06 –> 0:37:08.09 Where you know it’s it’s, 0:37:08.09 –> 0:37:11.216 uh, this crazy mess of DNA. 0:37:11.22 –> 0:37:12.354 And you know, 0:37:12.354 –> 0:37:15 we’ve been asking in for decades now. 0:37:15 –> 0:37:16.131 Basically, you know, 0:37:16.131 –> 0:37:18.016 how does the genome work? 0:37:18.02 –> 0:37:20.288 The way that people have been 0:37:20.288 –> 0:37:21.422 asking for centuries? 0:37:21.43 –> 0:37:23.32 How does the brain work? 0:37:23.32 –> 0:37:24.828 What gene does what? 0:37:25.87 –> 0:37:27.487 Well, you see now there you go. 0:37:27.49 –> 0:37:30.106 You’re just you have you have. 0:37:30.11 –> 0:37:31.914 Presented a model right and 0:37:31.914 –> 0:37:34.44 you have your go like Oh well, 0:37:34.44 –> 0:37:36.25 how is the genome work? 0:37:36.25 –> 0:37:37.694 Well, it’s all about. 0:37:37.694 –> 0:37:39.499 It’s all about these jeans. 0:37:39.5 –> 0:37:42.26 So what we need to do is identify 0:37:42.26 –> 0:37:45.15 as you know, let’s let’s spend 0:37:45.15 –> 0:37:47.39 our careers identifying genes. 0:37:47.39 –> 0:37:48.955 And then that will tell 0:37:48.955 –> 0:37:50.52 us what the genome does. 0:37:50.52 –> 0:37:52.405 Yeah, there are other people 0:37:52.405 –> 0:37:54.83 who say like are you crazy? 0:37:54.83 –> 0:37:56.79 Like jeans are boring jeans. 0:37:56.79 –> 0:37:59.028 Jeans are jars are the least 0:37:59.028 –> 0:38:01.1 interesting part of the genome. 0:38:01.1 –> 0:38:03.11 You know you’ve got enhancers 0:38:03.11 –> 0:38:05.12 and repressors and you’ve got 0:38:05.19 –> 0:38:07.065 all this circuitry that decides 0:38:07.065 –> 0:38:08.94 what genes get used in.

32 0:38:08.94 –> 0:38:10.508 When you know there’s 0:38:10.508 –> 0:38:12.468 this whole logic to that, 0:38:12.47 –> 0:38:14.038 you know that’s what’s 0:38:14.038 –> 0:38:15.998 interesting and so you’ll have. 0:38:16 –> 0:38:19.528 So you have the you have the gene catalogers, 0:38:19.53 –> 0:38:22.266 and you have the circuitry people. 0:38:22.27 –> 0:38:23.95 And you know, 0:38:23.95 –> 0:38:29.07 like you have those camps and and you know. 0:38:29.07 –> 0:38:30.186 Neither is wrong but, 0:38:30.186 –> 0:38:32.505 but both of them will say like, well, 0:38:32.505 –> 0:38:34.5 what we’re doing is what really matters, 0:38:34.5 –> 0:38:36.579 and so it’s kind of tricky when you go 0:38:36.579 –> 0:38:38.786 to interview people and they’re like, 0:38:38.79 –> 0:38:39.362 yeah, yeah, 0:38:39.362 –> 0:38:41.078 I’m not saying that they’re wrong. 0:38:41.08 –> 0:38:43.906 I’m just saying that they’re just. 0:38:43.91 –> 0:38:45.178 Fixated on something that’s 0:38:45.178 –> 0:38:46.446 just not that important. 0:38:46.45 –> 0:38:46.767 Well, 0:38:46.767 –> 0:38:50.6 how much of that do you think? 0:38:50.6 –> 0:38:51.23 Is 0:38:51.23 –> 0:38:54.36 a result of funding limitations, 0:38:54.36 –> 0:38:58.388 so something that I’ve often wondered 0:38:58.388 –> 0:39:02.54 about or sensed in different communities 0:39:02.656 –> 0:39:06.275 is a lot of the disagreements that 0:39:06.28 –> 0:39:12.228 people have or hash out and journals. 0:39:12.23 –> 0:39:14.138 May not be actual scientific disagreements, 0:39:14.14 –> 0:39:15.412 but more business disagreements. 0:39:15.412 –> 0:39:16.678 Oh, I think so. 0:39:16.68 –> 0:39:18.275 Definitely, who gets to run 0:39:18.275 –> 0:39:20.18 the Department or what we may?

33 0:39:20.18 –> 0:39:22.66 Or should we make a new Department or 0:39:22.66 –> 0:39:25.441 or or a new center you know, like? 0:39:25.441 –> 0:39:29.369 How do you justify making a Center for? 0:39:29.37 –> 0:39:31.146 You know genome studies or something? 0:39:31.15 –> 0:39:34.21 Well, because genomes are important. 0:39:34.21 –> 0:39:35.87 The people say, well, 0:39:35.87 –> 0:39:37.945 you’re just doing stamp collecting. 0:39:37.95 –> 0:39:39.066 Yeah yeah, exactly. 0:39:39.066 –> 0:39:42.196 I know I think that’s that is a 0:39:42.196 –> 0:39:44.842 very important thing and I recently 0:39:44.842 –> 0:39:47.081 I’ve been interested in going 0:39:47.081 –> 0:39:49.589 back and looking in the 1970s 0:39:49.589 –> 0:39:51.262 that’s associate wars, 0:39:51.262 –> 0:39:52.51 where, for example, 0:39:52.51 –> 0:39:55.006 you know Wilson published this book, 0:39:55.01 –> 0:39:56.96 Sociobiology and 1975 and people 0:39:56.96 –> 0:39:59.439 like write down his Hall at 0:39:59.439 –> 0:40:01.247 Harvard like Richard Lewontin, 0:40:01.25 –> 0:40:03.38 just waged 0:40:03.38 –> 0:40:05.51 a fierce war against him. 0:40:05.51 –> 0:40:08.246 And basically they were using this 0:40:08.246 –> 0:40:11.455 opportunity to make a play for the 0:40:11.455 –> 0:40:13.615 direction that biology should go 0:40:13.615 –> 0:40:16.957 so that you will send is saying we 0:40:16.957 –> 0:40:19.452 should look at animals and people 0:40:19.452 –> 0:40:21.682 as basically these these sort 0:40:21.682 –> 0:40:25.001 of sets of genes that have been 0:40:25.001 –> 0:40:27.833 tuned by natural selection and so 0:40:27.928 –> 0:40:30.728 everything about their behavior. 0:40:30.73 –> 0:40:34.63 We should think about them. 0:40:34.63 –> 0:40:39.726 In large part as being you know adaptations

34 0:40:39.726 –> 0:40:42.81 for reproductive success whereas. 0:40:42.81 –> 0:40:44.88 One tin and gold were saying, 0:40:44.88 –> 0:40:45.218 well, 0:40:45.218 –> 0:40:46.908 behavior is so incredibly complicated 0:40:46.908 –> 0:40:49.01 and humans are so different that 0:40:49.01 –> 0:40:51.086 you couldn’t possibly ever do that, 0:40:51.09 –> 0:40:54.48 so we should not do that. 0:40:54.48 –> 0:40:56.094 And anyone who does make those 0:40:56.094 –> 0:40:58.062 claims is just an introduction IST 0:40:58.062 –> 0:41:00.546 reductionist or like literally they would. 0:41:00.55 –> 0:41:03.021 They would link Wilson with Nazis just 0:41:03.021 –> 0:41:05.748 did they just said oh this is part 0:41:05.748 –> 0:41:08.298 of this tradition that you know you can. 0:41:08.3 –> 0:41:11.268 You can run, run straight to Nazis. 0:41:11.27 –> 0:41:14.378 So they went there. 0:41:14.38 –> 0:41:16.557 What they wanted to do is to 0:41:16.557 –> 0:41:18.46 get people to think about, 0:41:18.46 –> 0:41:21.36 to do research that was. 0:41:21.36 –> 0:41:22.915 That address the questions in 0:41:22.915 –> 0:41:24.47 biology that they found more 0:41:24.53 –> 0:41:26.492 interesting so you know Stephen Jay 0:41:26.492 –> 0:41:28.29 Gould was very interested in well, 0:41:28.29 –> 0:41:29.865 how to embryos develop and 0:41:29.865 –> 0:41:31.44 how and what you know. 0:41:31.44 –> 0:41:33.048 What is the course of development 0:41:33.048 –> 0:41:34.924 and how does the of 0:41:34.924 –> 0:41:36.799 development lead to different forms? 0:41:36.8 –> 0:41:39.96 You know, so that if you look at. 0:41:39.96 –> 0:41:42.708 Just to give one example, he loved to use. 0:41:42.708 –> 0:41:45.45 If you looked at an animal gigantic horns, 0:41:45.45 –> 0:41:47.713 you could, you might say like, oh,

35 0:41:47.713 –> 0:41:50.297 those horns are gigantic for a very clearcut, 0:41:50.3 –> 0:41:52.882 adaptive reason, and he might say, well, no. 0:41:52.882 –> 0:41:54.838 Well actually as animals get bigger 0:41:54.838 –> 0:41:56.76 their horns get much much bigger. 0:41:56.76 –> 0:41:58.698 So it’s just a side effect 0:41:58.698 –> 0:41:59.99 of this other process. 0:41:59.99 –> 0:42:02.489 You know, if you’re so fixated on 0:42:02.489 –> 0:42:05.209 looking at every little thing as being. 0:42:05.21 –> 0:42:06.356 There’s you know, 0:42:06.356 –> 0:42:09.14 adaptive thing will, right? 0:42:09.14 –> 0:42:10.288 So you know it’s, 0:42:10.288 –> 0:42:12.415 so we have those sort of the 0:42:12.415 –> 0:42:14.07 luxury of time that it’s, 0:42:14.07 –> 0:42:14.684 you know, 0:42:14.684 –> 0:42:16.833 over 40 years since all that happened, 0:42:16.84 –> 0:42:18.38 people were just like just 0:42:18.38 –> 0:42:19.92 the battles were so pitched. 0:42:19.92 –> 0:42:23.31 But I don’t know now you kind of look at it. 0:42:23.31 –> 0:42:25.566 Be like yeah yeah OK like sure like 0:42:25.566 –> 0:42:27.542 you know you don’t want to you 0:42:27.542 –> 0:42:29.367 don’t want to be too simplistic 0:42:29.367 –> 0:42:31.007 about how genes work. 0:42:31.01 –> 0:42:33.17 But you know, like we know that genes 0:42:33.17 –> 0:42:34.696 are very important for behavior 0:42:34.696 –> 0:42:37.253 and on the other hand we also know 0:42:37.253 –> 0:42:39.018 that you can’t reduce behavior, 0:42:39.02 –> 0:42:41.09 just jeans like and so you. 0:42:41.09 –> 0:42:42.182 You know, in hindsight, 0:42:42.182 –> 0:42:44.228 you sort of wonder what were they 0:42:44.228 –> 0:42:46.106 fighting about, and I do think 0:42:46.106 –> 0:42:47.876 they were fighting about turf turf.

36 0:42:47.876 –> 0:42:49.65 Well, how do you remain sensitive 0:42:49.65 –> 0:42:51.174 that, well, you’re reporting 0:42:51.174 –> 0:42:52.698 on the present day. 0:42:52.7 –> 0:42:56.6 I mean, how do you so I’m I’m in training, 0:42:56.6 –> 0:42:58.16 I’m a resident, right? 0:42:58.16 –> 0:43:00.5 So that’s like not quite yet. 0:43:00.5 –> 0:43:02.966 A doctor but still doctor and 0:43:02.966 –> 0:43:05.949 I do a little research and. 0:43:05.95 –> 0:43:07.936 I think it’s been very complex 0:43:07.936 –> 0:43:10.577 for me to come into a field 0:43:10.577 –> 0:43:13.049 and try to understand both the 0:43:13.049 –> 0:43:14.595 intellectual history and this 0:43:14.595 –> 0:43:16.478 social history that is produced. 0:43:16.48 –> 0:43:19.524 What is going on in the field right now 0:43:19.524 –> 0:43:22.475 and how some of those cogs that are 0:43:22.475 –> 0:43:25.88 turning have been set in motion decades ago. 0:43:25.88 –> 0:43:27.384 So how do you? 0:43:27.384 –> 0:43:30.387 I mean, you have science as your topic. 0:43:30.387 –> 0:43:31.141 You know, 0:43:31.141 –> 0:43:33.02 not just one particular niche 0:43:33.02 –> 0:43:34.895 like what I’m working on, 0:43:34.9 –> 0:43:35.65 so that 0:43:35.65 –> 0:43:38.3 seems like a very. Learn 0:43:38.3 –> 0:43:39.88 skill. I’m curious how 0:43:39.88 –> 0:43:41.67 you can parse that out. 0:43:44.17 –> 0:43:47.802 Well, I I think that I I approach 0:43:47.802 –> 0:43:49.917 writing about science through 0:43:49.917 –> 0:43:53.223 telling stories and I also approach 0:43:53.223 –> 0:43:57.088 it in part to learn about science 0:43:57.088 –> 0:43:59.748 by reading the stories and. 0:43:59.75 –> 0:44:02.36 You know that that can be

37 0:44:02.36 –> 0:44:03.665 really incredibly helpful, 0:44:03.67 –> 0:44:06.708 so I recently read everything ready stories. 0:44:06.71 –> 0:44:09.32 When you say stories, you mean 0:44:09.32 –> 0:44:11.495 like the Journal articles or 0:44:11.495 –> 0:44:13.67 other science reading? No, I 0:44:13.67 –> 0:44:17.4 mean history of science, history. 0:44:17.4 –> 0:44:19.3 You know, and there are. 0:44:19.3 –> 0:44:21.49 You know there are scholars who 0:44:21.49 –> 0:44:24.184 who specialize on this and and I 0:44:24.184 –> 0:44:25.728 think journalists and scientists 0:44:25.728 –> 0:44:28.039 need to really learn from them. 0:44:28.04 –> 0:44:30.104 And then there are journalists who 0:44:30.104 –> 0:44:32.22 have an effect become historians. 0:44:32.22 –> 0:44:35.26 I think of like James Gleick, for example. 0:44:35.26 –> 0:44:37.54 I read not too long ago. 0:44:37.54 –> 0:44:39.44 His biography of Richard Feynman, 0:44:39.44 –> 0:44:42.93 which is just fantastic and. 0:44:42.93 –> 0:44:45.582 You know, obviously Richard Feynman on 0:44:45.582 –> 0:44:49.24 his own did not invent modern physics, 0:44:49.24 –> 0:44:53.461 but he had this amazing life where he was 0:44:53.461 –> 0:44:57.475 central to that drama from the 1930s onward. 0:44:57.48 –> 0:44:59.076 And so in. 0:44:59.076 –> 0:45:01.013 You know, following his life 0:45:01.013 –> 0:45:02.759 and the story of his life, 0:45:02.76 –> 0:45:05.728 you get this story of. 0:45:05.73 –> 0:45:07.29 These alliances and friendships 0:45:07.29 –> 0:45:09.63 and conflicts and all the rest 0:45:09.699 –> 0:45:11.855 and an that produced sort of the 0:45:11.855 –> 0:45:13.737 first version of modern physics and 0:45:13.737 –> 0:45:16.146 then a new version on top of that. 0:45:16.146 –> 0:45:19.17 And then a newer version on top of that.

38 0:45:19.17 –> 0:45:19.778 And yeah, 0:45:19.778 –> 0:45:21.602 so if you want to understand 0:45:21.602 –> 0:45:23.539 the field you’re getting into. 0:45:23.54 –> 0:45:25.787 I mean, you really have to learn 0:45:25.787 –> 0:45:27.569 the history of the family, 0:45:27.57 –> 0:45:29.95 and I don’t think scientists. 0:45:29.95 –> 0:45:32.386 Get that they don’t have that. 0:45:32.39 –> 0:45:34.35 There’s not that expectation in 0:45:34.35 –> 0:45:37.26 terms of how you train a scientist, 0:45:37.26 –> 0:45:41.17 so I had you know, people who. 0:45:41.17 –> 0:45:41.465 Well, 0:45:41.465 –> 0:45:43.235 you know I went to scientists, 0:45:43.24 –> 0:45:45.016 I went to to edit my. 0:45:47.13 –> 0:45:53.3 My book I should say. Let me back up. 0:45:53.3 –> 0:45:55.54 I had scientists who. 0:45:55.54 –> 0:45:57.817 I went to the Fact Check my book so 0:45:57.817 –> 0:46:00.473 I would show them chapters or like 0:46:00.473 –> 0:46:02.748 the whole manuscript and just say 0:46:02.748 –> 0:46:04.995 like have I made mistakes and you 0:46:04.995 –> 0:46:07.276 know they would help me with that. 0:46:07.28 –> 0:46:10.704 But then for them the history was often. 0:46:10.71 –> 0:46:12.879 Quite new to them so you know I just 0:46:12.879 –> 0:46:15.672 I don’t see how you can become a 0:46:15.672 –> 0:46:17.354 card carrying geneticists without 0:46:17.354 –> 0:46:19.538 understanding the very complicated, 0:46:19.54 –> 0:46:20.948 messy and sometimes disturbing 0:46:20.948 –> 0:46:23.066 history of your field. You know? 0:46:23.066 –> 0:46:25.89 I mean, I need to read your book. 0:46:25.89 –> 0:46:28.354 Well, that’s a great place to start. 0:46:28.36 –> 0:46:31.537 I mean, The thing is that the problem is, 0:46:31.54 –> 0:46:33.773 you know, just to give this example

39 0:46:33.773 –> 0:46:35.971 of genetics is people just have 0:46:35.971 –> 0:46:37.539 a very simplistic history. 0:46:37.54 –> 0:46:40.024 So if you say eugenics, they think, 0:46:40.024 –> 0:46:42.558 oh you mean the Nazis Nazis bad 0:46:42.558 –> 0:46:45.31 we’re not huge. Assist. 0:46:45.31 –> 0:46:48.256 Then the fact is that eugenics, 0:46:48.26 –> 0:46:50.72 the phrase eugenics, was coined. 0:46:50.72 –> 0:46:54.164 The word was coined by Francis Galton, 0:46:54.17 –> 0:46:57.74 who is one of the founders. 0:46:57.74 –> 0:47:00.098 Of genetics in the sense that, 0:47:00.1 –> 0:47:03.166 like the methods people used to understand 0:47:03.166 –> 0:47:05.629 the inheritance of complex traits. 0:47:05.63 –> 0:47:08.17 They’re all just using Galton’s 0:47:08.17 –> 0:47:10.202 methods and American Genesis, 0:47:10.21 –> 0:47:13.661 the very first ones you know, right? 0:47:13.661 –> 0:47:14.443 When the. 0:47:14.443 –> 0:47:17.18 The name genetics was coined in 1900 0:47:17.261 –> 0:47:19.593 were generally themselves eugenicists 0:47:19.593 –> 0:47:23.091 who really very passionate believed that, 0:47:23.1 –> 0:47:25.35 for example, if you’re deaf, 0:47:25.35 –> 0:47:28.507 you shouldn’t be able to have children. 0:47:28.51 –> 0:47:31.216 That’s what we’re talking about and, 0:47:31.22 –> 0:47:34.55 and they and politicians in the 0:47:34.55 –> 0:47:35.66 United States. 0:47:35.66 –> 0:47:38.124 Many of whom we we look up to 0:47:38.124 –> 0:47:39.59 like Teddy Roosevelt. 0:47:39.59 –> 0:47:42.089 They listen to those scientists and said, 0:47:42.09 –> 0:47:44.938 haha, OK, well let’s let’s do good science. 0:47:44.94 –> 0:47:46.59 Let’s have science guide our 0:47:46.59 –> 0:47:48.87 policy an let’s let’s do eugenics. 0:47:48.87 –> 0:47:49.938 Let’s sterilize people.

40 0:47:49.938 –> 0:47:51.006 We did that, 0:47:51.01 –> 0:47:53.116 and so I think geneticists today 0:47:53.116 –> 0:47:54.94 have to know about that. 0:47:54.94 –> 0:47:57.796 Well, I think even more widely than that. 0:47:57.796 –> 0:47:59.58 A lot of this statistical 0:47:59.58 –> 0:48:01.722 measures we still use have their 0:48:01.722 –> 0:48:03.862 origin and eugenics again, in the 0:48:03.862 –> 0:48:05.288 correlation coefficient. Well, as 0:48:05.29 –> 0:48:07.515 Dalton. Yep, right Galton and 0:48:07.515 –> 0:48:08.876 his followers. Absolutely. 0:48:08.876 –> 0:48:12.138 They were the ones who set these 0:48:12.138 –> 0:48:14.709 things up that we still use. 0:48:14.71 –> 0:48:17.41 They were right in that respect. 0:48:17.41 –> 0:48:18.76 They were right, 0:48:18.76 –> 0:48:21.486 but they also were, you know, 0:48:21.486 –> 0:48:23.801 had these very dangerous toxic 0:48:23.801 –> 0:48:26.516 ideas on issues of class and 0:48:26.516 –> 0:48:28.66 poverty and race. So here, 0:48:28.66 –> 0:48:31.684 then maybe another facet of science 0:48:31.684 –> 0:48:35.448 that we don’t often think I’ve really. 0:48:35.45 –> 0:48:39.09 Scientists don’t often think of is how it’s. 0:48:39.09 –> 0:48:41.688 The scientific process an what constitutes 0:48:41.688 –> 0:48:44.77 the science of the day isn’t really 0:48:44.77 –> 0:48:47.335 separated or can’t be separated from 0:48:47.335 –> 0:48:49.94 the political climate of the day. 0:48:49.94 –> 0:48:52.11 An that’s something that I 0:48:52.11 –> 0:48:53.846 feel you’ve written about. 0:48:53.85 –> 0:48:56.43 Also recently on how science is 0:48:56.43 –> 0:48:58.62 sometimes or evidence or data, 0:48:58.62 –> 0:49:01.39 sometimes weaponized towards political ends. 0:49:01.39 –> 0:49:05.43 Anne. One example that just comes

41 0:49:05.43 –> 0:49:09.964 to my now you wrote a piece in your 0:49:09.964 –> 0:49:12.719 matter column about Elizabeth Warren’s 0:49:12.719 –> 0:49:17.019 DNA results an it was very you were 0:49:17.019 –> 0:49:20.126 clarifying exactly what that meant and 0:49:20.126 –> 0:49:23.203 you are clarifying because there are 0:49:23.203 –> 0:49:26.286 a lot of political politically active 0:49:26.286 –> 0:49:29.365 people saying incorrect things about it. 0:49:29.365 –> 0:49:32.865 And so I’m curious how you 0:49:32.865 –> 0:49:35.485 view the scientific climate. 0:49:35.49 –> 0:49:37.36 From a political perspective. 0:49:39.71 –> 0:49:43.787 Well, I think that there are a lot of 0:49:43.787 –> 0:49:47.847 people out there who get paid to advance. 0:49:47.85 –> 0:49:49.96 Some political agenda you know? 0:49:49.96 –> 0:49:52.21 Trying to gather a power to 0:49:52.21 –> 0:49:54.739 a certain group of people and 0:49:54.739 –> 0:49:57.553 they’ll just use whatever they can. 0:49:57.56 –> 0:49:59.67 An mislead people if necessary, 0:49:59.67 –> 0:50:03.459 and they’ll use science to get the job done. 0:50:03.46 –> 0:50:08.556 This is what they get paid for and. 0:50:08.56 –> 0:50:13.253 Everybody needs to find a job, but I find 0:50:13.253 –> 0:50:16.379 this like an incredibly toxic thing. 0:50:16.38 –> 0:50:20.154 It’s just there they are spreading 0:50:20.154 –> 0:50:22.041 misinformation about science 0:50:22.041 –> 0:50:24.267 for a living and so. 0:50:24.27 –> 0:50:26.58 Yeah, so you know I was right. 0:50:26.58 –> 0:50:28.56 I was explaining how Elizabeth Warren 0:50:28.56 –> 0:50:32.42 you know, went to a Jeanette Assist. 0:50:32.42 –> 0:50:33.652 And said can you, 0:50:33.652 –> 0:50:35.5 can you learn things about my 0:50:35.571 –> 0:50:37.539 ancestry by looking at my DNA? 0:50:37.54 –> 0:50:39.78 And this is Carlos Bustamante at Stanford.

42 0:50:39.78 –> 0:50:42.66 He’s like sure that’s what I do every day, 0:50:42.66 –> 0:50:44.529 so it’s tough to do that. 0:50:44.529 –> 0:50:46.65 And so he got hold of Warren’s 0:50:46.727 –> 0:50:48.099 blood and you know, 0:50:48.1 –> 0:50:50.989 they sequenced the DNA out of it and then 0:50:50.989 –> 0:50:53.854 you’re able to exceed pieces of DNA and say, 0:50:53.86 –> 0:50:54.518 Oh well, 0:50:54.518 –> 0:50:56.492 I could recognize this piece is 0:50:56.492 –> 0:50:58.428 having having an ancestry in this 0:50:58.428 –> 0:51:00.252 population and so on so forth. 0:51:00.26 –> 0:51:04.156 So lo and behold, it turns out that. 0:51:04.16 –> 0:51:07.814 Warren does have a Native American 0:51:07.814 –> 0:51:10.25 ancestor several generations back. 0:51:10.25 –> 0:51:11.59 OK, you know I will. 0:51:11.59 –> 0:51:12.75 I’m a science writer. 0:51:12.75 –> 0:51:15.56 I mean if people want to argue about whether 0:51:15.56 –> 0:51:18.22 she should have done that test or not. 0:51:18.22 –> 0:51:20.116 Then yeah, that’s a different thing. 0:51:20.12 –> 0:51:21.7 That’s a totally legitimate debate. 0:51:21.7 –> 0:51:24.22 I’m not going to get involved with that. 0:51:24.22 –> 0:51:25.428 I think you know, 0:51:25.428 –> 0:51:27.965 I’m here to like sort of be in 0:51:27.965 –> 0:51:29.909 that sort of fact based world. 0:51:29.91 –> 0:51:32.438 And so one fact is that you know, 0:51:32.44 –> 0:51:34.162 just because you can point to 0:51:34.162 –> 0:51:36.065 some piece of DNA does not 0:51:36.065 –> 0:51:38.129 automatically enroll you in a tribe. 0:51:38.13 –> 0:51:39.71 That’s not how it works, 0:51:39.71 –> 0:51:41.555 and it’s frankly disrespectful to 0:51:41.555 –> 0:51:43.84 the tribes like they have there. 0:51:43.84 –> 0:51:46.132 It it totally you know tried

43 0:51:46.132 –> 0:51:48.49 to run over their autonomy, 0:51:48.49 –> 0:51:51.028 so leave that out of it. 0:51:51.03 –> 0:51:53.16 The basic biological fact is 0:51:53.16 –> 0:51:55.29 that Elizabeth Warren has this 0:51:55.362 –> 0:51:56.95 certain amount of DNA, 0:51:56.95 –> 0:52:00.331 So what was bizarre was that there 0:52:00.331 –> 0:52:03.17 were these Republican operatives who. 0:52:03.17 –> 0:52:05.802 Looked at that thing that I had 0:52:05.802 –> 0:52:08.11 written and they looked back at 0:52:08.11 –> 0:52:09.994 another article I’d written right 0:52:09.994 –> 0:52:12.598 where I was writing about a study 0:52:12.598 –> 0:52:15.245 by scientists at 23andMe who had 0:52:15.245 –> 0:52:17.833 looked at their customers DNA as 0:52:17.833 –> 0:52:20.329 sort of a very broad way and was 0:52:20.329 –> 0:52:22.178 trying to roughly estimate like. 0:52:22.178 –> 0:52:24.47 You know how much Native American 0:52:24.535 –> 0:52:26.629 ancestry is there that they can 0:52:26.629 –> 0:52:28.89 identify in people who self identify 0:52:28.89 –> 0:52:30.875 as being of European descent? 0:52:30.88 –> 0:52:32.26 It’s a totally legitimate 0:52:32.26 –> 0:52:32.95 scientific question. 0:52:32.95 –> 0:52:34.994 You know they may not be able 0:52:34.994 –> 0:52:37.445 to get a precise answer, but. 0:52:37.445 –> 0:52:39.455 Think they they put this forward 0:52:39.455 –> 0:52:41.879 in a in a Journal article? 0:52:41.88 –> 0:52:44.2 Um? 0:52:44.2 –> 0:52:46.12 So these political operatives basically 0:52:46.12 –> 0:52:48.871 mangled what I was saying and I 0:52:48.871 –> 0:52:50.407 think willfully misunderstood it, 0:52:50.41 –> 0:52:53.119 and to basically come out and say, 0:52:53.12 –> 0:52:56.39 like Elizabeth Warren has less DNA.

44 0:52:56.39 –> 0:52:58.258 Let me put this 0:52:58.26 –> 0:53:00.664 way. Elizabeth Warren, anyone else? 0:53:00.664 –> 0:53:03.592 Elizabeth Warren has less Native American 0:53:03.592 –> 0:53:06.22 ancestry than the average white person, 0:53:06.22 –> 0:53:09.142 which is such a frankly stupid 0:53:09.142 –> 0:53:11.09 misunderstanding of of the 0:53:11.176 –> 0:53:13.906 basic arithmetic of the results. 0:53:13.91 –> 0:53:15.87 And so I had to go write 0:53:15.87 –> 0:53:17.12 another piece of that. 0:53:17.12 –> 0:53:18.58 I’m saying, stop it please, 0:53:18.58 –> 0:53:20.916 which was as I thought it was effective. 0:53:20.92 –> 0:53:22.38 But it was interesting so 0:53:22.38 –> 0:53:23.84 and they really annoy them. 0:53:23.84 –> 0:53:26.168 I have to say they they they really? 0:53:26.17 –> 0:53:28.663 I mean I was looking on Twitter and I 0:53:28.663 –> 0:53:31.091 could see that I had really ticked him 0:53:31.091 –> 0:53:33.469 off because I had called them on it. 0:53:33.47 –> 0:53:34.638 What they were doing. 0:53:34.638 –> 0:53:36.39 But that’s just one little example. 0:53:36.39 –> 0:53:37.935 Unfortunately there are lots of 0:53:37.935 –> 0:53:39.774 examples and we have the people 0:53:39.774 –> 0:53:41.67 now in the EPA who are are trying 0:53:41.67 –> 0:53:43.622 to promote the idea of basically 0:53:43.622 –> 0:53:45.277 one scientist who claims that. 0:53:45.28 –> 0:53:47.877 Well, a little bit of radiation or 0:53:47.877 –> 0:53:50.777 a little bit of some toxic chemical 0:53:50.777 –> 0:53:53.333 might actually be good for you. 0:53:53.34 –> 0:53:54.122 I mean, 0:53:54.122 –> 0:53:57.77 nobody else in the field is going with this, 0:53:57.77 –> 0:54:00.416 but because this will be easier on 0:54:00.416 –> 0:54:02.61 industries in terms of regulation,

45 0:54:02.61 –> 0:54:03.816 they’re promoting that. 0:54:03.816 –> 0:54:04.62 And again, 0:54:04.62 –> 0:54:07.448 this is another example of you know, 0:54:07.45 –> 0:54:08.731 spreading misleading information. 0:54:08.731 –> 0:54:12.193 I mean here is a case where you 0:54:12.193 –> 0:54:14.178 know you could potentially be. 0:54:14.18 –> 0:54:16.48 Really harming peoples lives. 0:54:17.06 –> 0:54:19.18 The radiation in the chemicals right? Yeah, 0:54:19.18 –> 0:54:21.604 I mean if we say like Oh well, 0:54:21.61 –> 0:54:23.416 what’s a little Mercury between friends? 0:54:23.42 –> 0:54:25.534 You know someone’s going to get hurt? 0:54:25.54 –> 0:54:27.584 Well, so the question for me then 0:54:27.584 –> 0:54:29.18 something that I’ve wondered in, 0:54:29.18 –> 0:54:31.304 you know, reading your pieces or just 0:54:31.304 –> 0:54:33.116 following the dialogue more generally is. 0:54:38.26 –> 0:54:39.05 Is. 0:54:43.47 –> 0:54:45.42 The phrase the customer is 0:54:45.42 –> 0:54:47.37 like what kids like, how, 0:54:47.37 –> 0:54:50.49 how can you make a scientific claim like 0:54:50.49 –> 0:54:53.61 if the whole idea of science is that 0:54:53.61 –> 0:54:55.56 through objective or empirical inquiry, 0:54:55.56 –> 0:54:57.9 we can reveal something or learn 0:54:57.9 –> 0:54:59.46 something about our environment. 0:54:59.46 –> 0:55:02.19 And if even though that tool set 0:55:02.19 –> 0:55:04.53 remains in place, those answers are 0:55:04.53 –> 0:55:06.09 still politicized and misconstrued. 0:55:06.09 –> 0:55:08.43 Then not only does that make 0:55:08.43 –> 0:55:09.99 your job extremely complex, 0:55:09.99 –> 0:55:12.916 because you’re the one who brings us. 0:55:12.92 –> 0:55:16.43 You know to the to the public where the 0:55:16.43 –> 0:55:19.099 politics are just going going crazy,

46 0:55:19.1 –> 0:55:21.16 but I’m even the scientific 0:55:21.16 –> 0:55:23.63 process itself is damaged, I feel. 0:55:23.63 –> 0:55:24.869 And So what 0:55:24.87 –> 0:55:28.989 do you do? I mean, that’s so you had you 0:55:28.99 –> 0:55:31.456 had a debate over, you know, 0:55:31.46 –> 0:55:33.926 just to use this example again, 0:55:33.93 –> 0:55:37.51 the Elizabeth Warren genome. 0:55:37.51 –> 0:55:39.64 And I also posted your response 0:55:39.64 –> 0:55:42.036 on my Facebook page and I was 0:55:42.036 –> 0:55:44.472 surprised that I think it had the 0:55:44.472 –> 0:55:46.902 opposite effect of what I was hoping. 0:55:46.902 –> 0:55:49.694 I think it in fact divided more than 0:55:49.694 –> 0:55:52.13 it brought back together an that just 0:55:52.13 –> 0:55:53.87 totally boggled my mind I. 0:55:56.33 –> 0:56:00.071 It is a fact that if a lot of times when 0:56:00.071 –> 0:56:03.9 we think well, I’m I’m settling this. 0:56:03.9 –> 0:56:06.553 Problem once and for all that we 0:56:06.553 –> 0:56:09.368 discover like now actually like people. 0:56:09.37 –> 0:56:11.614 Are not coming away the way 0:56:11.614 –> 0:56:13.62 we expected them to, and. 0:56:13.62 –> 0:56:15.66 They’re actually like that’s, 0:56:15.66 –> 0:56:18.102 and that’s actually kind of an 0:56:18.102 –> 0:56:20.479 interesting phenomenon in and of itself. 0:56:20.48 –> 0:56:23.504 I mean, then that has to do with the 0:56:23.504 –> 0:56:25.71 psychology of science communication. 0:56:25.71 –> 0:56:28.601 An here Yale Dan Kahan has been 0:56:28.601 –> 0:56:30.53 doing just experiments on that, 0:56:30.53 –> 0:56:34.667 and other people have as well and. 0:56:34.67 –> 0:56:38.333 You look at at what happens in terms of. 0:56:38.34 –> 0:56:40.974 You know how people get information 0:56:40.974 –> 0:56:43.917 in different contexts and so on, and.

47 0:56:43.917 –> 0:56:45.948 Different, you know, 0:56:45.948 –> 0:56:48.656 cultural self identifications and. 0:56:48.66 –> 0:56:50.1 You know the data is pretty 0:56:50.1 –> 0:56:51.634 compelling when you are looking at 0:56:51.634 –> 0:56:52.949 thousands and thousands of people 0:56:52.949 –> 0:56:54.918 and you get these these big affects. 0:56:54.92 –> 0:56:57.433 You know that stand up to the 0:56:57.433 –> 0:56:59.809 statistics so you know you cannot. 0:56:59.81 –> 0:57:00.538 Begin with, 0:57:00.538 –> 0:57:02.358 you cannot just assume that 0:57:02.358 –> 0:57:03.99 data speaks for itself, 0:57:03.99 –> 0:57:06.27 and you cannot and should 0:57:06.27 –> 0:57:08.93 not assume that well if if. 0:57:08.93 –> 0:57:11.765 A lot of data is in solving the problem, 0:57:11.77 –> 0:57:14.199 then a huge amount of data will 0:57:14.199 –> 0:57:16.476 that you have to understand well 0:57:16.476 –> 0:57:19.171 you know what is the nature of. 0:57:19.18 –> 0:57:21.564 How people respond to. 0:57:21.564 –> 0:57:24.544 Information whether it’s climate change, 0:57:24.55 –> 0:57:27.43 whether it’s issues of of identity 0:57:27.43 –> 0:57:30.31 and ancestry, whether it’s about you, 0:57:30.31 –> 0:57:32.23 know when life begins, 0:57:32.23 –> 0:57:33.19 I mean. 0:57:35.96 –> 0:57:38.361 So so to take this sort of 0:57:38.361 –> 0:57:40.685 sort of to say like, well, 0:57:40.685 –> 0:57:42.51 I’m a scientist and Anna 0:57:42.51 –> 0:57:44.31 purely only think about you, 0:57:44.31 –> 0:57:45.399 know, quote unquote. 0:57:45.399 –> 0:57:47.94 The science is not going to get 0:57:47.94 –> 0:57:50.474 you very far more than figures in 0:57:50.48 –> 0:57:53.056 papers, I guess yeah, I mean it’s not

48 0:57:53.056 –> 0:57:55.929 to deny the importance of the science, 0:57:55.93 –> 0:57:58.45 but to say Sciences serve plugged into 0:57:58.45 –> 0:58:00.638 this bigger cultural and social world. 0:58:02.34 –> 0:58:04.58 One look forward to reading more of 0:58:04.58 –> 0:58:06.908 your pieces and how you can explain 0:58:06.908 –> 0:58:09.12 the science in a very compelling way 0:58:09.12 –> 0:58:11.03 that hopefully looks people in hell. 0:58:11.03 –> 0:58:12.86 Some of the evidence thank you 0:58:12.86 –> 0:58:14.61 very much my pleasure. Thanks 0:58:14.61 –> 0:58:15.579 for having me. 0:58:26.51 –> 0:58:28.276 We hope you enjoyed that 0:58:28.276 –> 0:58:29.698 episode. Thanks again to 0:58:29.7 –> 0:58:31.464 Carl for being on the 0:58:31.464 –> 0:58:33.238 podcast and for the many 0:58:33.24 –> 0:58:35.356 conversations we’ve had off the record, 0:58:35.356 –> 0:58:37.126 he’s been a very helpful 0:58:37.126 –> 0:58:39.254 mentor in terms of writing and 0:58:39.254 –> 0:58:40.666 understanding how everything works. 0:58:40.666 –> 0:58:42.436 You can also find Carlin 0:58:42.436 –> 0:58:43.855 Twitter at Carl Zimmer. 0:58:43.855 –> 0:58:45.625 Again, that’s at Carl Zimmer. 0:58:45.625 –> 0:58:47.043 You can obviously find 0:58:47.043 –> 0:58:49.17 his work on the New York 0:58:49.17 –> 0:58:50.229 Times Web page 0:58:50.23 –> 0:58:51.995 or on his really awesome 0:58:51.995 –> 0:58:52.71 website, carlzimmer.com. 0:58:53.15 –> 0:58:55.564 He could pre order his next book Life, 0:58:55.564 –> 0:58:57.38 Search the search for what it 0:58:57.38 –> 0:58:59.188 means to be alive, how your 0:58:59.19 –> 0:59:01.304 favorite book seller or you can purchase 0:59:01.304 –> 0:59:03.418 his previous book. She has her mothers

49 0:59:03.42 –> 0:59:04.628 eyes also wherever books 0:59:04.63 –> 0:59:08.05 are sold. And so. Just like to 0:59:08.05 –> 0:59:09.5 offer special thanks to the 0:59:09.5 –> 0:59:11.24 Yale School of Medicine for sponsoring 0:59:11.24 –> 0:59:12.11 the podcast to 0:59:12.11 –> 0:59:13.635 Adrian Bonenberger for producing the 0:59:13.635 –> 0:59:15.589 podcast and Ryan McEvoy for his help 0:59:15.59 –> 0:59:17.33 sound editing. Special thanks to you 0:59:17.33 –> 0:59:19.356 for listening and again my name is 0:59:19.356 –> 0:59:21.39 Daniel Barron and I’ve been your host 0:59:21.39 –> 0:59:23.42 and I’ll see you next time here 0:59:23.42 –> 0:59:24.58 on science at all.

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