285 Budget (), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 286 1989-90 and ag we non. Members are aware, the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; We will Budget of the State of Karnataka for be giving you twelve minutes in any case. 1989-90 was presented to the Legislature Your time is 12 minutes. of the State on 17th March 1989 and the Vote On Account for the expenditure SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: estimated to be incurred during the first I cannot speak anything in 12 minutes. six months was obtained on 27th Malrch 1989, and the Karnataka Apprornation THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Unfortu- (Vote on Account) Act, 1989, was passed nately, when they take a decision in the in March 1989. Since the State Legisla- Business Advisory Committees they do tive Assembly was dissolved before the not realise. We have only 12 minutes Demands for the full year could be vot- registered. ed the Budget for the financial year 1989- 90 as presented to the State Legislature SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: was presented to Parliament on 31st I would draw your attention to the fact July 1989. The Lok Sabha granted the that this Bill was not discussed by the balance of the Demands for Grants and Opposition,—an unfortunate situation. passed the connected Appropriation Bill SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA (Kar- which is now before this House. To nataka). The State Assembly would have meet the total estimated expenditure dur- discussed it for month's together. ing the current year; the Bill provides for payment and approbation out of the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If the Consolidated Fund of Karnataka of a Mtmbers agree, we can dispense with the total sum of Rs. 5374.93 crores, compris- lunch hour and continue. (Interruptions') ing of Rs. 4073.26 crores voted by the Lok Sabha and Rs. 1301.67 crores SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA; Why charged on the Consolidated Fund of • do you deprive us of ... (Interruptions) the State and is inclusive of the sum ear- lier authorised for withdrawal in the Kar- SHRI JASWANT SINGH (): nataka Appropriation Act, 1989. Full de- Why dispense with the lunch hour? tails of the provisions are available in the (Interruptions) Demands for Grants circulated to Mem- bers on the 31st July 1989. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; It is bet- ter that we now adjourn for lunch and Madam, I move. he can speak af'er lunch.

The question was proposed. The House then adjourned for lunch at twenty-five minutes past one of the clock.The House reassembled after lunch at twenty-nine minutes . past two of the clock.

[The Vice Chairman (Shri Jagesh. desai) in the Chair.]

. BUDGET (KARNATAKA), 1989-90 I. KARNATAKA APPROPRIATION (ILL, 1989—contd. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let Mr. Chandre Gowda start and he ean con- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JA- :inue after lunch. StESH DESAI): Mr. Chandre Gowda.

SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA [Karnataka): Madam, we can adjourn ujd meet at 2.30, as usual. 287 Budget (Karnataka), [] Karnataka Appropriation. 288 1989-90 and Bill, 198? SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: country under the Presidents rule, 1 Mr. Vice-Chairman. Sirj I thank you for feel it is a negation of the spirit of the allowing me to initiate the discussion on President's rule which we have envisaged the Karnataka budget. Before I come to under Article 356. I have reason to the budget, I would like to take the believe that transfers have been directed House over the period of three months from Delhi, either from the office of or a little more than that.. the Prime Minister or from the office of the Home Minister or elsewhere from the concerned Ministers or otherwise con- While referring to the mandate, the cerned too. ; I am told, I wish I am hpn_ Prime Minister has said that the wrong, Shri Venkitaramanan takes Members of the Lok Sabha by resigning direct orders from the Prime Minister's en masse have violated the mandate of office. Most of the Backward Class and the feople. I would like to draw the atten- Scheduled Caste officers have been sent tion of this House to what has happen- out of Vidhan Saudha, the Seat of ed in Karnataka. The mandate has been power the seat of the power given by given a decent burial. They have debased the people. And Vidhan Saudha is and defiled the Anti-Defection law, assaul- ago with rumours that every transfer is ted the Constitution, butchered, democracy for some consideration, either it may be in broad daylight and reduced the office political or otherwise Sir, if i have to. of the to that of a marionette quote certain transfers recently made a Of the ruling party at the Centre. copy of which I have, you will be Sur- prised to know what can a non-popular Government do under the President's rule- Let us leave it at that, and let us leavei Sir, in one set of transfers of KAS offi- it to the people of the country to decide cers, there are 58 in the list, and in the as to who should be consigned to the second set of transfers, there are more dustbin of history. If you have faith in than ten. In all there were about 68 transfer so far as the KAS officers are people, let up go to them. Don't stick concerned In the case of Indian Forest like a limpet to the chair you are sitting Service, they have transferred about 25 on and pursue your perpetual rule in Senior officers to different places. To Karnataka. quote a few,more, a further set of 27 KAS officers have been transferred. Let Mr. Vice-Chainnan, Sir, before I take me now come to the iAS officers. Sir, up the discussion on the Budget-Karna- on 5.5.1989, 20 iAS officers- have been taka, I feel that we should have some transferred. Again, on the same day, idea of the President's rule in that State a second set of transfers of 19 officers particularly and that of the took place. And I do not know. U prior to that and their performance for does not stop at that And on 15.5.1989, about 6 long years. First of all, there 18 officers have been transferred. And is that new innovation—the Advisers to on 18.5.1989, 8 officers have been trans- the Governors, if i am correct The ferred. The total figure comes to about Imposition of the President's rule has 65 IAS officers who have teen transfer- made the Governor to run the day-to-day red This is what the present state Of administration through three Advisors. affairs is going on. If my friend wants, Official machinery of Karnataka is known I have the whole list with me. Sir, one 'for its efficiency. But I am sorry to say of the leaders, I am told, that the over-bearing attitude of the Ad- who was the previous Minister, he is visors who have no stakes in the State or very busy with transfers. He has, J am in the people of Karnataka has demoralis-' told the blessings of the Central Govern- ed the entire bureaucracy. I feel it is > ment and the Governor obliges him. Day an insult to the efficiency of the State in and day out he either sits in the office ] Service and the administration of of the Vidhan Soudh or in the Governor's Karnataka. The recent indiscriminate, office. His only job is to get the trans- unnecessary and biased transfers tell so fers, sanctioned. (Interruptions). I do many stories which were unknown either not know. Most of the engineers, either In Karnataka or anywhere else in the

289 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 J£UG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 290 1989-90 and Bill. 1989 of the irrigation or PWD, from top to cerned tickets They spent a lot of bottom, they are also transferred accord- money to readjust their whole adminis- ing to his directions. Advisers are busy trative set up. And the Congress leaders attending to these leaders, the so-called make an appeal and this drama begins leaders, and guiding the destiny of the and the Governor withdraws the order on officers, not the destiny of tie State, So, 28.5.1989. Having spent so much of Sir I would appeal to the Central Gov- money he withdraws the order ernment, please Dispense with the busi- ness of these advisers, trust the local offi- Sir, again he takes a decision to dis- cers. They can deliver the goods. They continue certain routes on the plea that have been delivering the goods; I am they are uneconomical ,and within a few not new to the administration. I was not days again the same drama is played and only a Minister I have done the job he withdraws it. In whose interest he as a Speaker and Leader of the Opposi- is doing it? tion also. Never have I come across such mass transfers, especially at a time THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JA- when the President's rule has been clamp- GESH DESAI): I would like to know ed in a particular State. how it is done because I also have run this department in Maharashtra. This is Sir coming to the recent happenings done by the Board. It comes to the' Go- in Karnataka ... vernment only for approval.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JA- SHRI D B. CHANDRE GOWDA; GESH DESAI); There are two names My point is that the Governor himself from your party. I do not mind it. ' announces it. That is my point. Sir, There is another name also. some time back the constitution of a Par- liamentary Committee was suggested by SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY no less a person than the KPCC(I) (Karnataka): Sir, it is Karnataka Bud- President and there are precedents. I do get. .. not know why these precedents were dis- pensed with so far as Karnataka is con- SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA; ... cerned. Sir, he has not even once called which used to be discussed for three long us over a cup of tea and consulted us, the months. Don't you have at least three elected Members of Parliament,, or the hours here? Sir, I would, like to bring elected members of Zila Parishads. Zila to your kind notice that the opposition Parishads are working. Though members in the Lok Sabha for various this government was thrown reasons could not speak on the Budget. out vs: constitutionally under article At least, the.time of the opposition here 856, they could not throw out our gov- should be given.. . ernment which we had established .after six years of. long history. They MISTHR OF STATE IN THE could not throw them st the tENTS OF YOUTH AFFAIRS office have AND SPORTS AND ■ WOMEN AND he; en them confl- CHILD DEVELOPMENT IN THE MINISTRY OF HUMAN RESOURCE ■ dence ; exactlyis going on in the DEVELOPMENT (SHRIMAT1 MAR- State. This has not GARET ALVA): So, you want that that been done. time should be - transferred here? Again about the excise policy. He SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA; has made a big announcement. Sir, Yes, Yes, don't you think it is justified? excise is an issue somehow connected with politicians, whether' they are Sir, on 25.5.1989 the fares were increa- Member of Parliament or former Chief sed, the fares of the Karnataka State Minister or the present Chief Minister Road Transport Corporation, to come into or the one going to be the Chief Minis- force on 1.7.1989. They printed the con- ter. Sir, my point is, go far as excise policy is concerned, earlier when this 291 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYASABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 292 1989-90 and Bill, 1889 [Sim D. B. Chandra Gowada penormance tne previous govern- matter was taken up in Tamil Nadu, ment. I would leave it at that. His Excellency, Mr. Alexander said that this is a policy decision and I do Recently, they have tried to regula- not want to interfere in that policy rise the fee structure and abolish the decision; it is for the popular govern- capitation fee prevailing either in the ment to take a decision. But unfortu- medical colleges or the engineering nately, in Karnatka, the Governor colleges. They have announced the takes a decision and announces the fee structure. It is worse than the policy. What is the policy? One, paper disease itelf. At leat, earlier, a person writes on 31st July—it is Hindustan coming from a rural area who could . Times—under the caption 'Liquor not pay, who could not come out with barons in Karnataka get a jolt" and a distinction, was blessed by the elders saga story is written wherein it gays, with a seat without paying any capi- and I quote: "The State has been, ac- tation fee. Now, it is "his duty to pay cording to a general estimate, losing the fee. What is the fee structure? In over Rs. 300 crores duty per year the case of Government merit-pool from this kind of liquor" which means students—this is in regard to the 'seconds'. Now, let us see how the engineering colleges—they have to pay present administration has looked to Rs. 1,200. Unaided—Rs. 2,000 per year. these 'seconds'. There are three cate- Karnataka students-aided—Rs. 5,000 gories. I do not want to go into the Unaided—Rs. 8,000. Non-Karnataka details of it. According to them, there, students-aided-—Rs. 12,000 and Un- are only nine distilleries who have aided—Rs. 12,000. the capacity to distribute also. Can't we control nine distillaries? For that, In the case of the medical colleges, we want to have a separte central set- it is further worse. Government-merit- up so that the entire production comes poo] students have to pay Rs. 2,000. under one head. I am not trying to Karnataka students have to pay Rs. say that the wholesale trade takeover 25,000 per annum and non-Karnataka is wrong. I am not saying that. But I Indian students Rs. 60,000. If you want am doubtful as to how you would suc- j'our son to be admitted into a medical ceed there, and as a I quote from this course in Karnataka, you will have paper, they say, the loss of duty is to pay Rs. 60,000 every year. about Rs. 300 crores, and the ex. Finance Minister of the State comes SHRI MOTURU HANUMANTHA out -with a statement that it is Rs. RAO (Andhra Pradesh): Without capi- 600 crores. I do not know how many tation fee. crores are estimated by my esteemed friend, Mr. Janardhan Poojari. Num- SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: In ber of estimations have come in. But the case of NRI's it is Rs. 80,000 per with this experiment, the Governor year. This is the fee structure. Has it, when we met him, estimated it at in any way, helped in tackling the Rs. 50 crores; the Congress President menace of capitation fee? It is ram- etimated it at Rs. 60 crores. Now what pant. Today, it runs into lakhs. Sir, is the estimate of the Governor? He the students have to pay the fee, not says, the target has been raised to year-wise, academdc-year-wise, but for Rs. 36 crores, and while referring to all the Ave years at a time, lumpsum. Hindustan Times again, his own figures would say about the perfor- SHRI SUKOMAL SEN (West Ben- mance of the Janata Party for the gal): How much? last six years—and now Janata Dal as on today—In 1982-83, the revenue SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: In was Rs. 140 crores; In 1989-90. It is the case of the non-karnataka stu- Us. 320 crores, which speaks of the dents, it comes to Rs. 3 lakhs. Over 293 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 294 1989-90 and Bill. 1Q8Q and above this, the old method pre- this as a political document. What is vails. It runs into lakh, 2 lakhs, 2.5 it that he refers to? I have yet to lakhs. I heard a few days back that come across another document of this now it has gone up to Hs. 3 lakhs. type. It says "A legacy of huge budge- What is it that we have done?, -Are tary deficit, undischarged liabilities, we trying to deceive the people? Are has been left behind by the Janata we trying to teach the students right Government." This is what the docu- from the beginning, right from the ment says. You can make a political inception, deceit? Sir, I, for one have speech. I do not mind. It says; "...in been continuously opposing this capi- addition to fiscal mismanagement and tation fee business. Rightly or wrongly, indiscipline." What shall I call it? It it is prevailing. But what is it that is more a political document, than a we have done now? Now, Sir, I come Budget paper. It further says: "There to... are reasons to believe that the Janata Government was not vigilant in the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI matter of curbing tax evasion. Appa- JAGESH DESAI): You have already rently, there is large-scale evasion taken twenty minutes. of excise duty on liquor." Again, the same thing. This has been mentioned SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: I in the Financial Statement. This is need another twenty minutes. what I take objection to.

SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY: Sir, I. do not want to go into the details. Never in the past a Budget He is from Karnataka and we are paper presented to Parliament to discussing the Karnataka Budget. debate a State Budget has made such THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI references at any point of time. As I JAGESH DESAI): The time allotted is said, this is a political document. Only three hours. What is "this? Karnataka is not the only State which has a deficit, it is in the distinguished company of many DR. G. VIJAYA MOHAN REDDY Congress (I) States, including Gujarat. (Andhra Pradesh): For discussing the Let me not quote the staggering figure • Kudal Commission's report, we have of the deficit of the Central Govern- taken two days. This is how you con- ment, Rs. 28,000 crores. Sir, if I quote duct the Business of the House. again from the AG's office report, during the five years of Janata rule, SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY: it does not contain any adverse re- We have debated the Kudal Commis- marks on the management of finances sion's report for two days. or the administration, including that DR. G. VIJAYA MOHAN REDDY: . of the Excise Department. Both the Please allow him some more time. Planning Commission and the Reserve Bank of have, time and again, THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI complimented the Janata Government JAGESH DESAI): Mr. Gowda, I will , of Karnataka on its success in the re- give you another ten minutes. source mobilisation. This is the com- pliment given by the competent authorities, but what does this politi- . SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: cal document say? Is this the way to Coming to the Budget proposals for run the nation?, Is this the way to 1989-90, I have seen the Financial run a State and is it the way to tell statement given by the Minister of the people of the country? It is like State for Finance on the Budget of ccffee calling kettle black. I do not the Government of Karnataka for the want to say more than that. Had the year 1989-90. I am sorry to use this Minister presented the performance language. Instead of calling it as a budget of the rule during these four Budget paper, I would, certainly, call 295 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 296 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 [Shri D. B. Chandre Gowda] card facilities to urban areas: Recently months, we could have known or com- a decision was taken to extend greet pared the perfoYmance of this Govern- card facilities to supply at subsidisec ment with the performance of the pre- rates in town having population o vious Government at least, if not the 20,000 for which a budget provisioi past. has been made. This has also not com menced. Sir, umpteen numebr of times the .so-called leaders—I can't think about others—have said that Karnataka is The Hyderabad-Karnataka Develop bankrupt. They have no money even ment Board, which has now been anno to pay the salaries. On top of it, it in the papers, is a long-standing aspira is the Prime Minister of the country tion of the people fromi that area. who m;akes such a statement. This decision has been taken. Two crore should not have come from the mouth of rupees have been allocated. White of the Prime Minister at least, I am formulating the scheme, the presen sorry to say that. administration has not even had th courtesy to consult the concernet people. Who are those concernei New, in the name of fiscal manage- people? The Zila Parishads are func ment and financial discipline welfare tioning. The Legislative Coune: activities of the State have come to a Members are there. The Members o grinding halt, irrigation activities have Parliament are there. While formula come to a standstill, command area de- ting a scheme of this type, at least : velopmental activities have not begun formal consultation should have beer yet. Sir, the Karnataka budget will done. That has not been done. speak of that. A law should be passed for enhancement to enforce reservation for the scheduled castes, scheduled Then the implementation of th tribes and backward classes, but this model Committee Report on the is pending. Reservation of jobs for Kudala Sangameswara Temple. The women, that too, under certain speci- is one of those temples which gets sub fied categories, has not taken off. merged under the Krishna project. T Decision to constitute special courts save that, a scheme has been formula for disposal of cases under Civil ted. A Committee was constituted. Th Rights Enforcement Act of 1976 and Committee gava its considered dec' dowry deaths, is not yet implemented. siens. Scheme for agricultural labourers; a scheme has been adopted by Govern- AM HON. MEMBER; Whene ment to give monthly pension of R: have not taken a decision. Four month 6O to the agricultural laourer who is have elapsed. disabled while in service or at work -and Rs. 2000 in the case ox death. Coming to getting clearance of th Budget provision has been made for . projects, I do not want to. go into th the scheme but no action has been details of it because time does no taken. Village sanitation, sauchalayas permit... as we call them, budget provision has been made for this but no action has been taken. Housing has come to a THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHE standstill. Site and service projects JAGESH DESAI): I have already give have yet to begin. No programme has you half an hour. I cannot give yo been made though approval was recei- more than that. ved for most of these important pro- jects. Learn to earn scheme: it is still gathering dust. Extension of green

297 ' Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989] Karnataka Appropriation 298 1989-90 and Bill. 1989 SHRI u. B. CHANDER GOWDA: NO, in it. Another important aspect of his Sir, I want at least 5 minutes more. work was the supply of drinking water. ■Sis, a number of projects are pending More than 53,000. bore wells were sunk. with the Central Government lor cle- The Government of India patted him arance. I would like to refer to only, • and gave the bonus. Yet today the one or two in a pointed manner. I do ruling party at the Centre does not commend the Government for having look to it. Sir, (the people of Karna- teken over the Visvesverya Iron and taka used to call him "Neer Sahib". Steel Works which would come under '"Neer" is water. He used to be called SAIL. We have been urging for this for -"Neer Sahib". It is sad that he is a number of years. Thanks to the previ- no more, but his memories are still ous Government of Karnataka also alive with the people of Karnataka that they gave whatever they wanted. in -every village, in every hamlet. Interest free electricity overdues, extra electricity and every other facility that ., Sir, I do not have the time, other- the Central Government wanted, they wise I would have quoted the figures. gave. I would rather congratulate the There were so many socio-economic pevious Government for the interest schemes—like pension for widows, pen- they evinced in that. sion for the disabled, uniform to school children, mid-day meals, sarees refinery and petro- and dhotis at reasonable subsidised chemical project is pending clearance. price, green card for poor people. Establishment of an export processing 3.00 P.M. zene at Wakhal industrial estate, There is a housing scheme in the , is still pending. About name of this great soul, Nazir Saab, Vijayanagar Steel Plant, the less said and we named the scheme after him the better it is. In the year 1971 the and called it Nazir Aawas Yojana. Prime Minister of the country comes Many people commented on that, and lays the foundation stone. Thou- knowing nothing about that person. If sands of acres of land have been acqui- I may say so, Sir, it is our misfortune red. No less a person than the Prime that we have lost that man, which- Minister of the country, Smt. Indira ever party he belonged to. Gandhi under whose leadership I wor- ked and which I still feel was my pri- Coming to one important aspect, vilege, came and did this. Unfortuna- that of forests, forests are in the Con- tely before every election; every party current List. Now, we have built pro- talks about it. Again I am; told the jects and projects but, for public pur- , Prime Minister has said that he'would poses like laying roads, there are give life to that. I do not know what"" problems. I come from the Malnad type of life he is going to give. I have area where the entire land is submer- yet to see that. ged, specially in the Varahi hydel pro- • ject area. ' Thousands of people are Coming to the other aspects... homeless. Only to give an alternative means of communication- for them, we THE VICE-CHAIRMAN ■ (SHRI have to construct a road there and, JAGESH DESAI): This is your last for that purupose, we have to fell only point. . 400 trees. That matter is pending with the Government of India for the SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: last, almost, two years How long can No, Sir, 1 will take two minutes more. they wait? This year again the rains In the performance of the Janata Dal are there, the area is full of water. Government .particularly in the field There are nearly a thousand families of decentralisation of power, we set an there and we are taking them in example to the country,' thanks to late launches. I would appeal to the Gov- Nazir Sab who took personal interest ernment that in the matter of con- 299 Budget (Karnataka), [ RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 300 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 [Shri D. B. Chandre Gowda] SHRI SATYA PRAKASH MALA- VIYA (Uttar Pradesh): I think you struction of roads and in tackling are the greatest optimist! educational and health problems, the State Government should have power SHRI IX B. CHANDRE GOWDA: to give consent for these public pur- Sir, I led three delegations to the poses. Otherwise, one has to seek Governor. In one delegation, there Central clearance even to fell a small were more than 50 people. After I number of trees in the Malnad area. met the Governor and came - back, those people told me, "Mr. Chandre Gowda, you were the Minister, you There is another problem. Rightly were the speaker, you were the leader or wrongly, the budget has come to of the opposition, you are everything. the Centre. Now the Central Govern- But don't for heaven's sake, do this ment has to take one decision. I come again. We committed the mistake of from a coffee-growing area. Seventy- bringing you to the Governor. We will two per cent of India's coffee is grown not do so hereafterwards." Then they in the Chikamagalur area. When Mr. tried to tell those men in authority Gundu Rao was the Chief Minister, to hold elections as early as they can. his- Government started levying sales I hope the Government would take a tax at 13 per cent plus 1.5 per cent, decision and see that a popular Gov- in Andhra you do not have sales tax ernment is restored in Karnataka as 3n coffee, in Tamil Nadu you do not early as possible. Thank you very have sales tax on coffee though, in much, SiS Kerala, it is only six per cent. This s a commodity connected with diffe- SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: Mr. rent States and therefore there should Vice-Chairman, Sir, • somehow the De some uniform method. Because of Janata Party, or Janata Dal, has his levy, now the growers have to pay chosen a tilender batsman to start the learly Rs. 160 crores of arrears, and cricket. I only salute the wisdom of hey are not getting their due share. Mr. Gurupadaswamiy, the leader of Phis year's entire coffee fund will be the Janata Dal front. He knows his lirected to clear these arrears because case is very weak: he cannot defend if the Supreme Court's judgement as the case. hey have to abide by that. But the high Court of Karnataka said that the Mr. GurupadaSwamy tried his best Central Government should come to to mend the Government of Karna- heir assistance. Yet nothing has come taka, as a leader of the party here. But torthand they are on the streets, having failed, even on this day he rherefore, Sir, through you I appeal chose not to defend the Janata Gov- o the Government of India to take up ernment or the budget which was his matter in earnestness and in all placed by the Janata Dal. The initia- leriousness. tor of the discussion has conveniently forgotten even, to say whether he sup- ports the budget or opposes the budget. In the end, Sir, as I have said He himself is not in favour of passing :arlier, I hope and trust that the Con- the Budget placed by his own party. gress Party still believes in democra- SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: ;ic institutions. So, let us not try td I am sorry, it is still not too late, I selittle the popular upsurge. suppose. (Interruptions)

DR. G. VIJAYA MOHAN REDDY: SHRI KAMAL MORARKA (Rajas- He has demanded elections. (Interrupt han): What a hope! tionsj 301 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 302 1989-00 and Bill, 1989 SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: I do country for five years, if you replace not know why the Opposition Members "country" with "State," it 100 per are agitated. Mr. Chandre Gowda con- cent fits into the rule of the Janata veniently forgot to say, "This is a Dal or Janata Government in Karna- Budget presented by the Janata Gov- taka. This is what I wanted to remind ernment, Janata Dal Government, in them. You have gone to the Rajghat Karnataka. Please pass it." He has not to say this." You yourselves are the asked for passing the Budget. Why victims of these statements. are you agitated? Sir, performance of any government SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: should be looked into. Somehow deli- That is only an oversight. berately the initiator of the discussion forgot that he belongs to a party SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: It is which has ruled the State for five all right, oversight or deliberate. It years, and he has not said anything may be oversight for you. I take it to about the progress achieved in Karna- be a deliberate attempt at not defen- taka, what their promises were and ding your own Budget. It may be a what their achievements were. That, deliberate omission. should have been stock-taking on this day, on the occasion of the Budget of Sir. I just went through the papers the Janata Government. today and saw a photograph wherein the Janata Dal has again gone back SHRI D. B. CHANDRE . GOWDA: to the Rajghat to. take oath. (Interrup- I have quoted everything. tions) SHRI H- HANUMANTHAPPA: In I am coming to that. I am having Whatever time you got, you convenien- ■ the paper. Mr. Malaviya, why are you tly avoided it. It is not helping you. impatient? I will come back. Sir, what were their promises? In 1977 we saw the same drama. Their manifesto was released. "Jobs After 12 years the drama has again for all if Janata is elected," says started from, the Rajghat. I am sorry, Janata. What is the position today? the Rajghat is a sacred place, but it They promised a job for one man is being used like this for taking from each family. oaths and forgetting the oaths. On the contrary, we have discussed about SHRI, K. G MAHESHWARAPPA Gandhi and the Commissions yester- (Karnataka): We never said, "jobs day. I am not going into that aspect. for all." What is this? I will take out a para from their state- ment. Wherever "country" occurs. I SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: This will replace it with "State." It fits for is the manifesto. (Interruptions) Are the five years of the State of Karna- you disowning your manifesto? (Inter- taka. I quote; ruptions) ir you are disowning your ''During the last five years the manifesto, I will throw away this situation has become much more paper. Are you disowning your own depressing. It was the State's mis- fortune that the rulers themselves manifesto? (Interruptions) had become thoroughly corrupt, in extracting money, in deals with SHRI P. N. SUKUL (Uttar Pra. land scandals and compromised with desh): Mr. Vice-Chairman, when Mr. self-respect of the State." Chandre Gowda was speaking, We I have only replaced "country" with were silently hearing. We did not dis- "State." In what they said for the 1 turb him. Now they are disturbing. • ,303 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Kamataka Appropriation 304 1989-90 and Bill, 1989

SHRI B. K. GADHVI; Mr. Chandre in medical colleges in Karnataka? Gowda, you now realise where demo- What for? What was behind it? Why cracy lies. Is it on this side or on that was he closing his mouth?, side? (Interruptions) SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: You ' One minute. For your information... can correct me if I am wrong. ''If voted to power, the Janata Party will SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: No. either give employment to all between I have not interrupted you. You should 18 and 50 or foodgrains worth Rs. 2 not interrupt me. {Interruptions) I a day, the" State Janata Party Presi- wan to tell this country the people dent said here today." It is dated who have taken oath at Rajghat what Novemebr 28; before you went for sort of Government they have given elections. As on today, let alone creat- to this country and to the people. This ing new jobs, even 80 thousand vacan- is a warning to the people of the cies in the Government have not been country for the next elections. Don't filled up. The KPSC has been crippled. be misled by an oath at a sacred place. No advertisements, no examinations, This is what I want to tell. What were no selections are being held. I don't .your promises and what has been want to go further because it is an your achievement? This is what I autonomous body. And what were want to tell this country. How far their promises? Much has been said have you achieved? about the medical colleges and the capitation fees. Sir. they started with a very good slogan of value-base. I am happy ■ SHRI GHULAM RASOOL MATTO Chandre Gowda admitted on the floor (JTammu and Kashmir)- Mr. Hanu- of the House. When he himself was manthappa, to which year does it discussing about the transfers, I just relate to! interrupted and asked: Are they value- SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: I am based? Traditionally because of the talking of the 1983 elections and the Janata Dal and the Janata Party all 1985 elections. I have got both the the transfers almost all are value- manifestos. based as conceded by Mr. Chandre Gowda.on the floor,of the House. So, SHRI KAMAL MORARKA: It rela- value-based Was attached to every tes to 1989 or 1990. work of the Government in Karnataka during the last six years. So, they SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: Mr. said that the Congress Government Morarka, you have already released has not conducted elections to the 1990. Otherwise what are these 71 local bodies for the last eight years . and 129? We are all watching. Do you and that they will conduct. They also mean to say we have shut our ears promised the provision of supersession and eyes? will be removed from the Statute. I question them: when they were in Sir, -Chandre Gowda argued about power they conducted the Municipal the capitation fees and the .medical _ 'elections only once. When the term fees and the Governor's decision. I was completed they never cared to am not here to hold the brief for the notify the elections again. And till governor for his decision on the moun- today as promised by the Janata Party ting' fees, but why this Chandre they have not changed the Statute. Gowda, who is so much opposed, who What is the promise and what is their was holding a position in the Janata action? (Interruptions) They were in Party, did not oppose sanctioning Office. They should have done the new medical colleges and increas- that. That was their promise. ing the number of management seats Sir, without going into all these de-

305 Budget (Kamataka) [10 AUG 1989I] KARNATKA Appropriation 306 1989-90 and Bill. 1989 tans, i will tell you- about other pro- given was: ''We indented for rubber mises. I have already told you about Bullets from the Centre but the Centre the value-oased politics. The value- di:i not supply us will rubber bullets; to based pontics has been discussed very we used the same bullets for firing." much in this country. What is the value Can it be a reason? attached to arrack bottling or' spirit or Revjit or Madhuvan? Now, I will come tc the details of the actions that they . Sir, one more institution supported have done in Kamataka. They have the Janata Party which enabled them promised one job for each family and to come to power and that is Dalits I have told you what they have done. Sangarsh Samithi. Dalits Kriya Sami- They have promised to appoint .meri- thi. They said: 'injustice has been torious Scheduled Castes/Scheduled done by the Congress Government; Tribes gradulates and post-graduates so we will support the Janata immediately without - any interview. Party." The Janata Party pro- Mr. Chandre Gowda was vehemently mised them that they would take care arguing for the welfare of the Sche- of them. They said: "We will give you duled Castes/Scheduled Tribes. Let him; all protection and we will give you say how many Scheduled Castes/Sche- reservation." I will give you the figures duled Tribes meritorious students of atrocities: In 1983, 329 atrocities have been appointed in the last six were committed, the number of in- years? Sir, if I am not wrong, not a jured was 524, value of property lost single candidate was appointed. 1 was Rs. 1,49,000, the number of deaths agree that this was challenged in the .was 44. These were the atrocities on court but what effort the Janata Gov- Harijans. In 1984, 368 incidents took ernment made to see that it is vacated? place, 412 were injured, the value of property lost was Rs. 1,33,000 and 33 That shows their reality. What was deaths took place. In 1985, 553 inci- your effort in getting it vacated or get- dents took place, 623 were injured, the ting it contested? That shows your in- value of property lost was Rs. 1,88,000 tention. and 49 deaths took place. In 1986, 511 incidents took place, 720 were injured, the value of property lost was Rs. Sir, they told the farmers of the 1,14,000 and 30 deaths took place. In State that the former Congress Gov- 1987, 630 incidents took place, 893 ernment was anti-farmers and there were injured.' In 1988, 637 incidents were killings in Nargund and they pro- took place. So successively there has mised to look after the welfare of the been an increase of atrocities against farmers. So the Rayat Sangha suppor- Harijans. So they could hot fulfil ted the Janata Party because they their promise of protecting the in- promised that they would protect terests of the Dalits. To highlight these . them. 'They were the people who re- atrocities I want to tell you in Bindi- moved the Congress party from the gari village, Belgaum district on 3. 8. rule in 1983. Sir, after the Janta Party 1987, Harijans were detained, abused, came to power 40,000 farmers were threatened and forced to eat human arrested. Mind you, Sir, the total eicreta. The allegation was stealing of capacity of the jails in Karnataka is jowar crop. No arrests were made and only 12,000 but 40,000 farmers were no punishment was given. That was arrested. Many incidents of firing took the action of the Government. In Tallur place. They said: "If our Government • village. Shimoga district on 29. 1. 1988, comes to power, we will not open fire. Harijans were not allowed to offer en the farmers." This was their elec- pooja. They were threatened and as- tion promise. If I am worng, let Mr. saulted with chappals if they entered Chandra Gowda or Mr. Maheswarappa the temple. In Mudugal village, Rai- contradict me. But there were a num- chur district, Scheduled Caste persons ber of firing incidents. The reason 307 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 308 1989-90 and Bill. 1989 [Shri H. Hanumanthappa] dogs to protect your houses and do not depend upon the Government were chucked out of the hotels; they machinery? were asked to get out of the hotels. One Harijan died in he scuffle. In THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI chincholi on 14-1-1987 a Harijan boy JAGESH DESAI): I do not want that. and a Hindu boy clashed while ex- changing Pongal greetings. In Yadgiri SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: taluq, an Asst. Commissioner, a Sub- Sir, Mr. D. B. Chandre Gowda has Divisional Magistrate was assaulted vehemently said, the people said, it by an upper caste man before the was not a bankrupt Government. What Janata Government Minister. No ac- do we see? Even old age pensions tion has been taken. He has not been were not paid for which he boasted. punished. He has his sympathy with Old age pensions, widow pensions, him. Now, the Dalits of Karnataka, handicapped pensions were not paid. the Scheduled Castes and the Sche- That lady will be waiting for the pen- duled Tribes have known the real sion in the first week of the month, in picture and the hearts of the Janata the second month, in the third month Dal and the Janata Government. and in the fourth month. Monies have not been given. Pensions have not been given. Sir, you may be surprised to Now, I am coming to law and order know that cheques issued by the State situation. The people naturally expect Government for Rs. 60/-, Rs. 100/-, the Government of the day to take Rs. 200/- had bounched. There was care of the law and order situation. no money in the treasury. Cheques Sir, what "is the position in Karnataka? were returned. Sir, this Parliament The Home Mnister of the State Gov- nassed an Act which says, if anybody ernment has been chargesheeted. The gives a cheque without a balance, he S. P. has been chargesheeted and the will be prosecuted. If this theme case is pending. I do not want to go is applied, then then Janata Govern- further. The Home Minister, who is ment of Karnataka should have been expected to take care of the people, prosecuted under that! Act.., (Interrup- protect the lives and properties of tions). .. Let us not go to the indivi- the people, he himself has to resign duals. Sir, on the day the President's and he has been chargesheeted and rule was imposed in Karnataka State, facing trial. As regards the protec- bills worth Rs. 129 crores were pen- tion of properties, there ,were some ding. Will they deny it? Bills worth dacoity incidents. What was the state- Rs. 129 crores .Were pending out of ment from the State Government? which Rs. 80 crores were to be paid Will they disown the statement? The to the contractors. Here, I have got Home Minister of the State Govern- my own reservations. After the im- ment is on record saying, 'don't position of the President's rule, the depend upon the Government machi- Governor has got money, raised the nery. You have your strong iron doors resources but they cleared the dues to your houses. Added to this, you which they should not have done be- have the dogs to protect your houses. cause Rs. 80 crores were for the con- The Government cannot protect you.' tractors. In turn, it has got its own For this, we have to vote? The people shares. It has got its own chain of are asking, is it the promise that they shares. Rather than that, they could have given from the Rajghat that have been utilised for the develop- "we cannot protect you, we cannot mental works. This is what Mr. D. B. protect your lives, we cannot protect • Chandre Gowda is crying for now and your properties?" Correct me if I am I am one with him. Instead of clear- wrong. Was not your Home Minister ing those cheques or pending ,bills, on record to say that you have to they could have been used for the have strong doors, you have to have developmental works. 309 buaget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 1 Karnataka Appropriation 310 1989-90 and . Bill, 1989

SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA; It is true. It is a fact.;

SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: You .tell me if I am wrong. It is only after Mr. , the Prime Minister, visited the drought-affected areas that the Chief Minister of Karnataka started touring the drought-affected areas. Sir, it had become the tradition of the Janata Dal and the Janata Government to blame the Centre or compare with Congress-ruled States. After all, the Janata Government was elected to run the Karnataka State administration. If you just open the budget speeches of the Chief Minister, every para contains an attack on the Central Government and the Central budget and comparison with Bihar, Orissa- and U. P. Baba, how is the farmer in a village in Karnataka in- vested in what is happening in U.P., Bihar and other congress-ruled States? What are you doing? You are ac- countable to the people. You have been voted to power. Every day they Added to tins, what did our Chiefnister make this comparison. Even now Mr. do? The people who elected n expected Chandre Gowda has said it is better him to run the State ii and give a good than Bihar and Orissa. But what was administration. t in his whole tenure, for Karnataka and what stage have you not even per cent of the period, he was in left it at? You tell me noly that. Why rnatakt and not even 25 per cent he snded do you compare With Bihar and office. Should the people be en away by Orissa? We will not stand comparison those woes and vote h a party to power?, • with other States whether they are I leae the .gment to the people. Every now Congress-ruled or Opposition-ruled. and n, for deficit, they say the State ■ Karnataka has its own tradition, its ,'ered a severe drought for four rs. own glory, its own richness. What Did the Chief Minister care to t the stage have you brought it to? drought-affected areas. Where ; he? He was never seen in the light-affected Sir, much has been said about stan- areas. dards. Even Lok Sabha Members have resigned on that issue alleging that HRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: the Congress Government- is indulging I the Prime Minister do that? in these things. I want to unveil cer- (Interruptions) tain information about the Janata HRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA; Yes. Government. do not know the facts. I will take of Mr. Chandre Gowda. Mr. Chan- THE • VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI Gowda, I want just to remind you JAGESH DESAI): Briefly. it is only after the Prime Minister SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: d the drought-affected areas in No, Sir. I want some more time. You lataka, your Chief Minister started have the liberty to stop me if I go ing Karnataka. Am I wrong? out of the way. But give me some more time. 311 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 312 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI TWO years the achievement was only JAGESH DESAI): Please put it 70%. What does it show? Obviously briefly. the State Government was unable to mobilise the resources to reach the Fiantarget, because ihere was no . SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: Government, the Chief Minister never I am always on facts. '{Interruptions). stayed in the State. In his anxiety to Deliberately, Mr. Chandre Gowda, I guide national politics unfortunately repeat again, forgot to deal with the the victims are the Karnataka people. achievements. Every time, I was Their development has come to a watching the deliberations of the standstill, to a grinding halt, because Planning Commission when the Karna- the Government, the leaders, they taka Chief Mnisters came and dis- elected, they started indulging in na- cussed the plan of the State. You take tional politics and trying to become the next ""day's newspapers. The press an alternative to Congress, an alter- had asked the question, "What is your native to Shri Rajiv Gandhi. feeling about the Plan allocation?," Every successive Chief Minister had Coming back to scandals, I want to said, "I am happy about the Plan allo- mention one scandal into which al- cation." But, the. moment they reached ready a commission of inquiry has' Bangalore, they would change. I do been appointed under the Commis- not know what happened in between sions of Inquiry Act, that js about in the air. In Delhi, they reacted to NRIs. I will quote from the very the press saying, "I am happy about notification issued by the Govern- the outcomings of the Planning Com- ment. This was about the 110 acres mission." The moment they reached of land on the Hosur-Sajjapur Road Bangalore they came out saying, "I given by the Bangalore Development am not happy. The Centre has discri- Authority to the Non-Resident indians minated, etc." I do not know what Housing Association of Karnataka. happened in the mid air. I do not "To inquire into any irregulari- know what happens in the mid-aip... ties, impropriety or contravention of law ... in addition to the matter SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: referred to in paragraph (a) of There was a stop-over in Hyderabad. this para." "To inquire into any other matter SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: arising out of the incident." Maybe, it may be the influence °- Hyderabad. For the earlier flight This, story has already been published there us,ed to be a stop-over at Hyde- in the press\ I do not want to go rabad. Maybe, because of the in- into the details. In anonymous name; fluence of Hyderabad the moment the the society has been formed... Chief Minister lands in Karnataka he starts attacking the Centre. Fortuna- SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA tely now We have a direct flight. Please read the terms of reference. Coming to that, even after saying that I am happy about Plan alloca- SHRI H-. HANUMANTHAPPA tions, what is their achievement? The I have read only the terms of refe- Planning Commission fixed a target of rence. His. 940 crores for the year 87-88. Their achievement was only Rs. 640 SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA crores, Rs. 300 crores less than the Why do you leave out the first Ifae' target'Axed. In the year 88-89 the SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA target fixed was Rs., 900 crores. The "To inquire into the facts and cir- achievement was only Rs. 680 crores, cumstances relating to the proposal".. Rs. 220 crores less. During these 313 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989] Karnataka Appropriation 314 1989-Qrt and mil. 1QBO SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: It is not mY view; it iS one of the terms of reference.

SHRI K, G. MAHESWARAPPA: What about the' Maharashtra land scandal?. . . (Interruptions) THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGESH DESAI): We are discussing the Karnataka Appropriation Bill. Why do you bring in Maharashtra? SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: WE are discussing Karnataka. Why should Maharashtra come in? When we discuss Maharashtra, we will answer that point also.. . (Interrup- tions) PR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI (Andhra Pradesh); You are going to introduce the Maharashtra Budget also here? THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JAGESH DESAI); This is for Karna- taka and not for Maharashtra.

SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: Sir, about the Governor's„RuIe, we have discussed it sufficiently and I do not want to go into that. I have al- ready given' the facts and figures. What will be the result of 117-19, I have already mentioned on the floor of the House, T do not want' to go further into. it. I do not want to say anything about. the 5 acres/124 guntas of landin which lakhg of rupees of Government revenue has been lost. - Who the relations are, who the Revajeetu . published, in the papers and I do not want to go into those details now. SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA; An inquiry was ordered by the on- cers also..(Interruptions) SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: That shows that there is a prima facie case ____ (Interruptions) let us dig out and many more skeltons will come out. Let us dig out and we will find out who are all involved, who are whose relatives and who are there in that company.

315 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 316 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 SHRI D. B. CHANDEE GOWDA: SHRI H, HANUMANTHAPPA: -Thaj is why you have set up the You see! I have to answer certain Commission. points raised by Mr. Chandre Gowda. He raised these points. He raised the SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA; issue of the KSRTC fares. The Go- Coming back to the question of vernor decided to raise the fares. power, let us see how they managed' But -when there was an objection, he the problem of power. The KSEB is withdrew. This shows very much now suffering a loss of Rs. 350 crores. that the Government of the day is There is no budgetary support to the responsive and reacting to the wishes KSEB for the last six years. These of the people. The Governor wanted are the facts. And Sir during the to enhance- the fares. But, when Congress (I) regime,' the' KSEB was there was an objection from the having a profit to the extent Of Rs, 10 public, the Government was reacting crores. It may be a small amount of to it and was responsive to it and money. But, today, under the Janata responded to the wishes of the regime, the loss has come to Rs. 350 people and it withdrew the fare hike. crores and during the last one year Are you objecting to that also? alone the loss is to the tune of Rs. 100 crores! Is it better management? Is SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: it better management about which I am not objecting to it, but .... (In- they are talking? terruptions)

Then, even with regard to produc- SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: tion of power also during the last You objected to it in your speech. six years they were not able to add even one million units more to the SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA existing level of 9,000 million units I did not object to it, but I did object although the demand of the State is to the method adopted. 16,000 miHion units.

. Coming to the question of public SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA sector undertakings, there are 55 Then, Sir, NGF is the best electrica public sector undertakings in our industry in the country. The annus State. There was an accumulated turnover is about Rs. 150 crores an< loss of Rs. 163 crores in the year this is a 100- per cent State-ownei 1983. We also do not claim that we undertaking. Actually, this Compan were earning profits. The losses decided to sell one crore shares, on were Rs. 163 crores then. But, today ■crore equity shares, to the public an the accumulated loss is Rs. 700 the LIC and the UTI and the Govern crores. During these five or six years, ment of India came forward to tak you have added Rs. 537 crores to the that. But the State Government de losses of the public sector undertak- cided not to give it to the LIC Or th ings. Is it better management? The UTI, but decided to give the share credit for the Janata Government is to another company in West Gei the addition of Rs. 537 crores more many. Not only the LIC and the as losses. UTI, but also the Government of Indi came forward to purchase fifty lakh The KSRTC was having an accu- equity shares. But, for obvisous res mulated loss of Rs. 15 crores in the sons—the reasons are known to the year 1983. Today, it hass gone up to Chief Minister and his company—the Rs. 150 crores! decided to sell these shares to AE of West Germany. If the Goverr SHRI K. G. MAHESWARPPA ment had decided to sell the shares During the President's Rule, during the open market, it would have fetck these months, it will get doubled up. fed Rs. 2 crores more. What hav 317 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 318 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 they negotiated for? Material worth SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: Rs. 100 crores, of India, has been I am coming to that. Unfortunately, sold but the commission is not ac- I wanted to start with the same sen- counted. I must tell you, Mr. Vice- tence. Mr. Chandre Gowda, I am Chairman, Sir, that 75 per cent, so coming to your point. I wanted to far as the transfer of shares is con- say that Governor's rule is not the cerned, is retained by NGF and 24 Congress rule. per cent is given to the AAG Com- pany. If one per cent more is added, THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI the foreign company will get the veto JAGESH DESAI); Another five power. is it in the interest of the minutes. State? Is it in the interest of the country? SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: I, will finish within \five minutes. He THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI questions the Governor's rule and the JAGESH DESAI): Some development appointment of advisers, etc. Mr. proposals. Chandre Gowda's question was: is it the way to run a State? After all SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: these allegations, I ask. him, Sir, they boast of having written off the question; is it the way to certain loans of farmers, as also the run the State of Karnataka by the . interest subsidy. Rs. 182 crores the Janata Party and Janata Dal? I have farmers returned in the hope of given you ample examples and leave getting the interest waived. What the answer to you and to the people happened in the ultimate result. They of this country. Is it the way to run have not reimbursed the interest a State? money to the cooperative societies. NABARD came in the way. They DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: Mr. said: you have become defaulters, Narayanasamy will answer. {Inter- we will pot advance you further. You ruptions) also know that Maharashtra objected to this. SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY (Pon- dicherry); You rule a State; we have The Janata Government claims so to answer. many... SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI While winding up his speech . Mr. JAGESH DESAI): Now, something Chandre Gowda said; we have made regarding your problems. budget allocations under these head.? but the Governor has riot started, SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: that activities have not been taken Sir, I just remind you, two days back up. Mere paper allocations .will not Mr. Sathe, while answering a ques- generate money. As a senior politi- tion, said something about 'Shakun- cian, as a Speaker, as a Minister and tala'. It was conceived by somebody, as as an M.P. you have worked; you which is disowned. Now, it is the know. Mere paper allocations will Budget conceived by the Janata. We not produce money. have to take care of the baby, orphan baby now. Even Mr. Chandre SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: Gowda did not support the Budget. It is not paper. He just left the baby after conceiving and left it to the care of the Con- SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: gress. (Interruptions) What is it? What is the legacy? Rs. 129 crores billspending? Will you SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: disown that after collecting Rs. 3 Do you say that Governor's rule is crores by way of National Savings your rule? . ' Certificates salaries have been paid? 319 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 320 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 SHRI . HANUMANTHAPPA want 10 go on record again that the Will you disown this? Mr. Bommai Janata Government in the year 1985- had to appeal to certain people to 86, did not lift 22,000 tonnes of purchase National Savings Certifi- wheat and rice. These foodgrains cates. Out of Rs. 3 crores sala'ries were given for the poor people and have been paid. In such a situation for welfare programmes. 11520 tonnes do you want the budget allocations of rice and 11520 tonnes of wheat to be spent and activities to be taken were not lifted by the Janata Go- up? vernment. It was meant for the benefit of the poor people.

Regarding the flood relief, I would say that till the Central team visits and makes an on-the-spot study, and sends its report, I request the Gov- ernment of India to release Rs. 50 crores immediately to take care of the flood victims.

A request for Rs. 145 crores has al- ready been submitted to the Centre' for the sea erosion project. I request the Government to sanction it. I am thankful to the Government for increasing allocations for the Jawahar Rozgar Yojna. But I would say one thing. The money meant for Jawa- har Rozgar Yojna has gone to the District Zila Parishads. What is hap- pening in Karnataka is this. The Karnataka .Panchayat is totally diffe- rent from what we are thinking now of the Panchayat Raj. There the bur- eaucracy is dominating. The devolu- tion of power is only on paper: Bureaucracy is dominating.

SO per cent "of the money that has Zill'a Parishads and Man- dais, has been adjusted against the spill-over work. Either it should be stopped and go to the people directly in order to achieve the expected' results or the Government of India should make additional allotment for this spill-over work. Otherwise this much-anticipated Rozar Yojna will Tlie other demands include the again become a farce if the 80 per petrochemical factory at Mangalore cent of the amount is adjusted against refinery and additional allotment of the spill-over work. The common foodgralris. While demanding the ad- man will not feel the effect of this ditional allotment of foodgrains, I Rozgar Yojna which has been created for them by the Centre. Thank you, , Sir. 321 Budget (Karnataka), [10 AUG. 1989 ] K^rnataka Appropriation 322 1989-90 and Bill 1989 SHRI ASHIS SEN(West Bengal): the Government while it was still May I seek your permission to have a continuing, while it was maintaining a clarification from him? Just permit majority? Under the plea that it me. I won't take much time. has lost majority, the Centre had in- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI JA- tervened and brought it under its own GESH DESAI); No "please. control. Otherwise, what were they SHRI MOTURU HANUMANTHA doing? Were they respecting the RAO: Sir, we are now discussing an- Constitution? They were not respect- other State budget in Delhi. It ing the Consitution. They were vio- should have naturally been discussed lating the Constitution. Were they at Bangalore by the democratically- respecting the appointment of Gover- elected Assembly. That Government nors as was suggested by the Sarkaria is thrown out and now we are com- Commission? No. They were not pelled. to have this discussion. respecting that provision also. A [The Vice-chairman fShrt V. Nara- Governor of the Congress Party despite yanasaaiyl in the Chair] the Sarkaria Commission's recommen- Sir, the Budget as such is to be op- dation was imposed on the State of posed or supported. That is immate- Karnataka which was ruled by a non- rial almost here. The Budget was Congress (I) party. And he was also originally prepared by the Govern- a defeated MP. That is another ment ox Karnataka, and now it is pro- story. But the point is that it was posed by and again supported by tne arbitrarily done without consulting the Central Government. Perhaps, left State Government, and Governors to his own option, Mr. Hanumanthappa were imposed despite the Sarkaria would have opposed it. Mr. Chandre Commission's caution against using Gowda did not also oppose it. He article 356 of the Constitution. They simply explained the things. Any- have brought this State under article way, it is not of so much for us, it 356 of the Constitution. So, all these is a consequential thing as I said in things go to prove how arbitarily and regard to the Punjab Budget. Here autocratically they have been behav- also, in regard to Karnataka Budget, ing. The Central Government is after it is a consequential thing. That is power, the centralisation of power, why the point is that it is a very un- authoritarian power, despotic power fortunate position that we are discus- over all the States. That is the in- sing it. Last week we were discuss- dication of these instances. Well, Mr, ing the Punjab Budget. This week Vice-Chairman Sir. otherwise, why we are discussing the Karnataka Bud- were these things done? What were get. Perhaps, the Central Govern- they telling us before? At the time ment would like many more State of dismissing the Government, they Budgets to be brought in here and were telling us that they have lost discuss because it is their authoritrian the majority. If the Government lost power to rule over all the States, majority, they were only to wait for a particularly the non-Congress (I) week, and it would have been obvious States. Congress (I)-ruled States there. The Assembly, according to would naturally oblige them. But the rules, was in session. Only it the non-Congress (I) States do not. was not sitting. It was to sit after a That is the demarcation. Oherwise, week. And they did not wait even Karnataka Government should not for the week days only to condemn have been thrown out. If I am to this Government and disband it. believe what all my hon. friend, Mr. Why? Why were they in such a haste? Hanumanthappa said, the Karnataka Because they were not confident Government could have been easily enough that, the majority was oppos- over-thrown and the Congress could ing the Government. The Govern- have won at every stage. That was not so. Why did it rush to behead ment was having the majority, ^nce the Congress Party at the helm of 323 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 324 1989-90 and Bill, 1889 • LSnn Moturu HanumanthaRao] SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA; We 1 affaire was not prepared to wait even are not afraid of holding the elections. for a week to see that the majority SHRI MOTURU HANUMANTHA overthrows that Government itwas RAO: I will be very happy if you fight because of lack of confidence and it for it. (Interruptions). The point was a despotic act on behalf of the is that they are very much afraid ot • Central Government. The point is holding the elections. Why? Because why did they do it? Then, doing it, there is a 3asmasurhastha and this what did they tell us? They told us Basmasurhastha they want to impose that the elections would be held as upon everybody, upon every oppon- soon as possible. It was said that ent's head, and ultimately they will the Government has lost the majority put it on their own head. and it has lost the confidence of the people and we are here to rule till then and we will be holding that elec-

tions very soon. What is the present ' SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA indication that is coming in the press? RAO; We want Phoolmohini and Arda- Our hon. friend Mr. Hanumanthappa nari. did not utter a word about the elec- tions (.Interruptions). But the indi- SHRI MOTURU HANUMANTHA cations in the press—I saw a report RAO: In 1984 immediately after the in the Hindu on the 9th, and today assassination of Mrs. , the Hindustan Times has also report- theyheld elections on the sympathetic ed—is that they were not prepared to wave. They won in the Lok Sabha hold elections in Karnataka. As in elections and immediately within a the case of Punjab, they do not want short period, boldly Mr. Hegde went to have elections for the Assembly, for polls. Because he could not suc- along with the elections to the Lok ceed in the Lok Sabha elections, he Sabha. Why? Why are they afraid went for polls and what did it decide. of elections? That means that there It was decided in the polls that the is obviously something fishy about it. Janata Party then was having full Otherwise, why were they challenging confidence of the people and immedi- everybody and even now Mr. Hanu- ately after the Lok Sabha elections, m manthappa is so confident that the the Assembly elections majority was Janata Dal rule has been a misrule given to the Janata Dal. So. like and it has lost the confidence of the that they are just watching and obser- whole people, and he is so confident, ving the situation now.- . If they hold but then let us go to the polls. Why the Lok Sabha elections now, they are you afraid of going to the polls? would just test the pulse of the people. Are you going to hold the Assembly Whether to hold the as- elections along with the Lok Sabha sembly elections or not, they elections? 4.00 P.M. would take a longer time to decide, if at all they keep SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: Will you please yield for a minute? Our themselves in power. As I have al- President in the other House has ready said, this Bhasmasur Hasta pleaded for early elections. The which was placed on the heads of Prime Minister is on record as having the Punjab Government and Karnata- said that as soon as the Governor ka Government, would be ultimately sends the report that elections can be placed] on their own head. I am held, elections will be held. (In- sure of that. The point is, will terruptions). they do it in the case of Congress- I States anywhere? They never did it PROP. C. LAKSHMANNA (Andhra except in one case when Punjab was Pradesh); We know what the Gover- in crisis. They did not do the same nor will say. thing in regard to Congress-I Minist- 325 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 326 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 ries. majority or tnecongressmen of things. Only the other day, the were against a particular Chief Minis- Scheduled Castes Comniissioner has ter and they were for throwing out given a report. What are the facts that! Chief Minister or the whole given in that report? (Time bell Cabinet itself. Then, basing on the' rings). reports, basing on the cliques, that were there, they were trying to change Minister; Chief Ministers were changed THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V.. many a time. Why did you not give the NARAYANASAMY). Time allotted to same opportunity to the party that you is 8 minutes; you have already had been democratically elected by the taken 12 minutes. I cannot give people of the State to have another beyond that. alternative of their own choice? Why did you not give that chance to any non-Congress-l States? You have SHRI MOTURU HANUMANTHA not given this chance to the party RAO': I will just finish. So, if you that was in power in any State to go through the report of the Schedul- have, a change if necessary, to change ed Caste Commissioner, you will find their own Chief Minister and their that in the Congress-I ruled States, own leaders. That opportunity was almost two-thirds or three-fourths of never given and all of a sudden, the crimes are committed in those straightaway, the Ministries were dis- States. Even coming to Karnataka, banded and that was the operation it stands in no comparison to II.P. you undertook. So, the point is, a or Bihar or Madhya Pradesh where democratically elected State Govern- all sorts of crimes, murders, rape etc ment was overthrown and now it is take place on a large scale. sought to be direredited on the basis of certain loopholes that are found. Loopholes could be found in any rule, SHRI M A. BABY (Kerala): Only but whether they are moles or beams Pondicherry... is the criterion. Mr. Hanumanthappa * is seeing certain moles in the Kar- SHRI MOTURU HANUMANTHA' nataka rule forgetting the beams that RAO1; Pondicherry may not be there are there in the eyes of Congress-I in that category. States. He has been referring to certain crimes stating that crime has increased in Karnataka. You know Particularly, when you try to judge the volume of crime that is going on the non-Congress (I) Governments, in the capital of' India. Is there you should keep this also in your any comparison between what is hap- mind. You- cannot point out, you pening in Karnataka and what is hap- cannot narrate, the loopholes without pening in Delhi Only the other day, taking into account these things. After I think it was yesterday—and fortu- all, the country is ruled by a Central nately I have got a cutting here--it power, not a State power. Political was reported in the papers 'Alarming , power is in the hands, is in the crime situation in Delhi; 37 murders grip, of the Congress '(I) in the whole in the month of June; 170 murders in country. Only in the States—only the past six months'. What is all in some States—other parties are this? Crime has been increasing there. The Congress (I) is having throughout the country, and when you such a political power in its hands. draw a comparison between a Con- Whatever had we see anywhere is be- gress-I State and a non-Congress-I cause of your rule because of your State, the crime rate is far less in the policies. When we compare the per- non-Congress-I States. He must not . formance with what was said in the forget this fact. He must have the election manifesto of the party at the modesty of having a self-critical, view time of the last Lok Sabha elections 327 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 328 1989-9Q and Bill 1989 [Shn Moturu Hanumantha Rao] tell him 'Yes; the mandate was given the Janata Party to rule in Karna- and what Rajiv Gandhi promised to taka.' But it was when they decided to the country immediately after coming take rebirth and recast their own to power, what do we see? Is there identity that the trouble started and "any comparison? There cannot be their party fell apart like -a toy which any comparison? New policies are is quarrelled for by children; you know- chalked out. . What . these policies how it ends up. The resignation drama have brought us to now,Ve are clear- ly witnessing. After all, subject to we saw in 1983 and -ve saw it happen the decisions that are taken, subject again. But in 1983 because the party to the policies that are made, by the felt that their leader as indispensable, Central Governmento and subject to they pleaded with him, they wept and the Constitution, the States are operat- they brought him back. We did not in- ing. The States are functioning terfere. They reelected him and they under very difficult circumstances. had him. But it came to a stage where Under hostile circumstances also. Un- they themselves were not able to hold der those circumstances, they are un- together. In the words of their senior dertaking their schemes. In spite of leader, Shri'NiJalingappa, 'Not a tear it, as my friend, Mr. Chandre Gowda, was shed when the Government was narrated, so many schemes were dismissed and President's Rule was undertaken. Of course, there have imposed'. been failures also. Who can say that there have been no failures? But my point is, when you see the per- SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA; formance of the Congress (I)-rulcd Don't quote him half. Quota him fully. States, the Central Government has no reason, no cause, to dismiss any non- Congress (1) Government. It is arbi-> SHRIMATi MARGARET ALVA: trary. It ig despotic. It is an autho- I have quoted him in the House before. ritarian rule that is going on there. Unless this rule goes, there is no SHRI D. B. CHANDRE ' GOWDA: safety for the Constitution, there is Don't quote only what is convenient no safety for State autonomy and to you. there is no safety at all for the rule of law in the country. Thank you. SHRIMATi MARGARET ALVA: THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. I will quote what suits me and not NARAYANASAMY): Shrimati Marga- what suits you Mr. Gowda. ret Alva. (Interruptions). Sir, when President's Rule was im- SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRA- posed the State was left With a demo- ralised bureaucracy, an empty trea- VARTY CAssam)l. Is Madam making sury, a bankrupt Government and an her maiden speech; (Interruptions) impoverished people, caused by a cor- rupt Ministry, a divided party and an SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: administration in shambles, T have Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I am very watched for many years, Karnataka. grateful or the sporting response. I Mr. Gowda spoke about his having have listened very carefully ------(In- been a Minister. We have seen Minis- terruptions) I am not sepaking here tries. We have seen Governments, we . as a Minister. I am speaking as a Mem- have seen earlier Governments, we from Karnataka. (Interruptions) Sir, all of us were in the party, we have Mr. Gowda spoke about the mandate seen them come and go. We may hav« to rule which had been given to his differed on policies and programme! party in Karnataka. I would like to but we were proud that we had a Gov 329 Budget (karnataka) , (10 AUG.1989 ) Karnataka Appropriation 330 1989-9Q and Bill 1989 and agrement which SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: worked and Karnataka had a reputa- Whoever came. My point is that con- tion of good administration, whether it sultation has been there as and when was under Nijalingappa or under suc- needed. Therefore, to say that it is cessive Governments afterwards. Why being run as a Congress State or with- I am talking about this is that it has out consultation is a very unfair charge been said that the President's rule I am not saying that the administration was unconstitutional, uncalled for, we today is perfect, it is not going to be were in a hurry to step in. By the time perfect for a long time because of the I finish you will realise what I say condition in which we have got it; but because we have inherited sortiething the point is of consultation which is which it is very difficult for us to put a part of our democratic system, whe- together or even perhaps to put right ther we differ on certain aspects or for many more years to come. They not. We will consult, talk and try to went to the High Court, they challeng- find answers which will make Karna- ed the imposition of the President's taka what it wasonce upon a time. rule and the High Court has thrown This is what I would like to say as far it out by saying that there is no as consultation is concerned. ground. I think they are now coming to the Supreme Court. Let us see what happens there. Sir, six years of Janata rule we have seen. Its manifesto was referred to by Mr. Hanumanthappa. I do not One of the charges that was made want to go .into its very many details. ' is that the Governor is not consulting Saris were promised, dhotis were pro- anybody. ] think it is a very unfair mised and mangal sutras were pro- charge. They will just say, because I mised to those who were gottingmar- happen to be in the Congress Farty ried, as if we have to go to the Janata I was invited. I was recently in South party to ask for a mangal sutra at the Kannara for some other function and time of marriage by the charity of the Governor happened to be there. Mr. Hegde. i have been in meetings He had a meeting at the local level where these promises were made. not only with the officials but with all those leaders of the Zila Parishad and SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA; all others, and as a Minister I was ask- These mangal sutras were not meant ed to attend it. I did listen to all the for persons like you. They were meant problems of the Zila Parishads, the for persons coming from the poorer local bodies, their office bearers, and sections, the local officials. It was not that only MPs were invited. You are a witness. 1 do not know if you were there. Re- SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: cently, when the Prime Minister was Yes, I know but Mr. Chandre Gowda, in Bangalore there was a meeting with however poor, at the time of his mar- the MPs, with the Governor and all riage he wants to be married with the officials to know what the MPs dignity, not with the charity from the were talking about the administration. Government. Let me say that mangal I was there as an MP. It is not that sutras are not bought with the charity nobody has been consulted. You all of the State Government. Anyway, have been repeatedly invited. Last let us forget it. (Interruptions). That week in Karnataka Bhawan, before is why you have given them sll this the budget was presented, the Gover- but you have not given them food. nor called Karnataka MPs of all parti- When they are starving you started es. giving them mangal sutras. So, let us not talk about, it. They promised a job for every family. He has spoken SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA; about it, and simultaneously saying Only one MP attended. that we have no money, so impose a 331 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 332 1989-90 and Bill, 1989

[Shrimati Margaret Alva] there were no supplies in the public distribution system and every time baa on recruitment. There w^re no they were told: Government job ana at the same time they imposed such severe power cuts that even small scale industry had to Nothing has come from Delhi. Whereas close down. The private industry and in the shops meant for the more afflu- small scale industry had to close due ent sections, every thing comes because to power cuts. They had to close down. . they are educated people who can fight (^Interruptions) Mr. Chandre Gowda, I and who know what supplies to get. sat through your speech, 1 cheered So this was the promise of looking you when you finished and I never dis- after the weaker sections'. turbed you. Let me finish. Otherwise, it affects the trend of my speech. (In- There were some slum improvement terruptions). programmes. The Janata Government converted them into slum clearance THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. programmes. The slums were supposed NARAYANASAMY): You had your to disappear. The slums can be demo- chance. lished and made to disappear, but the poor people do not disappear. Pro- SHRI B. K. GADHVI; May I request grammes which had been introduced Mr. Chandre Gowda, kindly emulate by the late Devraj Urs like milk and some sense of discipline and chivalry? bread to children in the slums of Bangalore were stopped. There are no SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: poor children, there are no slums they I am not. asking for chivalry, II am said. They had been sent outside the asking for my right as a Member, limits of Bangalore.

SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA; The old-age pension ceased to come I only requested you to do that. because there was no money. Salaries SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: of school teachers, they have come to I am not asking for chivalry; I am me in delegations, for three or four asking for equal rights as a Member of months had not been paid when Presi- dent's rule was imposed. The stipends the House. for house surgeons, the young doctors who wereworking as house surgeons, Sir, at the same time I would like were not given for 8 months. And they to say the two coloured ration cards s came to me in a delegation in South were imposed. The promise was that Canara and at two other places in those belonging to the poorer sections North Canara where I went. Even would get more on the ration cards police personnel attached to us for and would get more at subsidised security had told me that the DA had prices and the others would not get not been paid for ten months to police the same. Sir, I have been to rural personnel in Karnataka. I can give you areas, I have addressed meetings. 1 names of those who had come in dele- have got specific details. When the gations representing, "we cannot live, actual distribution of cards took place, we have no other sources of income it was the opposite. When I brought and we do not get our monthly salari- it to the notice of the local administra- es". Mr. Chandre Gowda knows it that tion when they were in power, they there were months when the State Government employees were told, "Cheques are being Issued, but please don't cash them before the 15th or the month. We are making arrange- ments for getting the money". 333 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 334 1989-90 and BUI, 1988 so this was what the financial posi- the policies of the previous Congress tion had come to. I am not saying that, Governments, whether it was land re- they did it deliberately. I am not say- form, or Janata housing or whatever ing that somebody was responsible. I it was. I do not want to say more here am just saying that this was the condi- but if you look at the list of the 'think tion. The vidhan Soudha became a tank', three or four of the names were kind of janata bazar where deals were those that have come under scrutiny struck. The Chief Minister finally by the Kudal Commission and were issued a circular in writing to the offi- members or that 'think tank' also. cers saying, "what is happening In the corridors is disgraceful. All this is PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA; Don't happening; and the officials must stop mention that. The same person got the meeting people because of all this hap- Magasaysay award. pening in the corridors of Vidhan Soudha". The Chief Minister had to SHRIMATI1 MARGARET ALVA: say that they should not accept the Why are you coming in? I am talking recommendations of ML. As. and other about facts—I am not judging any- elected people because it was bring- body. We all know about these Maga- ing a bad name and because this was saysay awards—how they are timed happening in the Vidhan soudha. The and how they are given. I don't go by bureaucrats were up in arms saying, foreign awards; they don't interest me. "your MLAs are doing it and you blame us for, all this." This was the PROP C. LAKSHMANNA: you talk circular which was published in the of the Magsaysay award as a foreign newspapers and which was issued by award! I think it is one of the recog- the Chief Minister. nized awards in the country even to- The transfers had a price, the post- day. ings had a price, the clearances had a SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: price. An officer rightly described the Why are you challenging? i am just administration like this; "There are saying that here are names which are no rules here. The only rule is concurrently available on both lists. I Mamool." Every thing had a price. am not judging anybody.

Sir, there were experiments con- ducted with Panchayati Raj. I am all for it. J have, in fact, on every plat- form said that I welcome the initiative This was your value-based politics. that Karnataka took to bring 25 per cent women, for the first time, in DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: Panchayats in Karnataka. But when I Where? In Delhi? went round the State the women them- selves, whether they were of your SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: party or mine or not, told me that the You do not know what happens in the problem everywhere was that the sub- States. You have become so Delhi- jects were transferred to the pancha- oriented. yats but the money and the budget was never transferred from Bangalore. One So this was the condition in Karna- of the main departments affected was taka. They had appointed what was my own Department. I can tell you known as the 'think tank'. Mr. Hegde today, sports was transferred to the wanted to have all the best brains panchayats to deal with, and here I from all over the country. He put them have a list which was sent to the Chief together and it was known as a 'think Minister and now I have sent it to tanks' of Karnataka of people from the Governor also. There are 87 in- all oyer the country. It was announced complete projects in Karnataka. First that this 'think tank' would work out programmes to undo the ill effects of 335 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 336 1989-90 and Bill. 1989 [Shrimati Margaret Alva] guidelines with the result that Kar- nataka never took the money from the instalment given, the money sent to Centre and the women of Karnataka Bangalore by cheque, it never goes to suffer because the Development Corpo- the local bodies and there is no work ration just did not take off even though done. The second instalment is with the money was available from the us, there is no utilisation certificate Centre. The other Opposition-ruled for the first instalment. We ask. them States- that followed the pattern.- have what happened, the State Government taken the money and are doing won- says, "We are not dealing, this is a derful work. But Karnataka never subject with the local bodies." The thought it necessary to follow up the local bodies say, "Yes, but the money programme—I don't know why. I has never come to us." What happen^ could talk of a number of programmes ed to the money in between, Sir, is a like this, and they always say that we question which "Mr. Chandre Gowda dont give money. will some day be able to answer. I have here with me the figures for Again, the Rural Health Centres I the RLEGP. It is a hundred per cent went tor—I have been touring the rural Centrally-sponsored programme. In areas—were closed. Why? There was 1985-86 the total resources that were a ban on recruiting doctors and they available to Karnataka were were closed. And where they were Rs. 2,970.94 lakhs, that is. about Rs. 30 opend, there were no medicines reach- crores. Their utilisation was only ing with the result that mothers were Rs. 2,133 lakhs, hardly 68 per cent. standing in queues outside, waiting for The next year it fell to 66 per cent. even simple medicines for children, In 1988-89 it fell to 51 per cent. Re- whether it was for diaorrhea or whe- sources were not utilised for the pro- ther it was forever. Besides this, not grammes even after they were made even nurses, vacancies were filled in available. The same thing again the rural side. with NREF—on a 50:50 basis from the Centre and the State. For As far as the ICDS was concerned, 1986-87 the utilisation is 58 per cent. there was a big meeting where from For 1987-88 it is 77 per cent. Again in - the whole State the workers had come. 1988-89 it dropped to 62 per cent. Eter- The food samples were so sub-stand- nally we are told, the Centre is not ard that I sent a sample to the Minis- giving money .' Money is given, but not ter. The report from the laboratory even utilisation is being attended to. which tested it said, that it was sub- Money had to be collected from vari- standard and not meant for human ous sources. Small savings collection consumption. The report from the labo- in Karnataka became compulsory. ratory was sent to the Minister and Everybody who had some salary, some- all that they said was that they were thing, had to have small savings. I looking into it. There was no follow- am for small savings. But the point up action. They had an option of either is Rs. 375 crores collected are not giving better food or not supplying, available now, leaving behind a liabi- and they preferred not to supply be- lity of almost Rs. 700 crores to any cause it was sub-standard. government which comes later. Where are these collections? On what have Sir, the Women's Development Cor- they been spent? poration was set up, again. They said I we don't give money. It is on a 51:49 I can say this about co-operative basis and we pay 49 per cent of the societies also. Recently in a meeting it capital. I begged, I pleaded. They said was brought out that even the reserve yes: they passed "a resolution. They and corporate fund of the co-operative didn't bother to follow the Central societies has been withdrawn and 337 Budget (.Kamataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Kamataka Appropriation 338 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 spent, leaving no money for ways and SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: means for day-to-day functioning, The whole difficulty is, right from 1964 against which banks were giving them the entire Malenadu belt has been dec- advance for procuring supplies from lared as minor forest. In 1974-75 after wholesale co-operatives. There is no the Act came, forest was Drought into money. the Concurrent List, nothing has been done for the State, please try to under- stand the problem. 1 can tell you, I am a Member of the Rehabilitation Committee for the Kar- SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: I war Naval Project. 1 was appointed as am not at all defending anything, Mr. one of the Members of the Committee, Chandre Gowda. J am just saying that i have repeatedly been pleading with land was to be acquired by the state the Chief Minister for land which they Government, and Rs. 20 crores were promised. Rs. 20 crores were released given. It has not been acquired. All by the Defence Ministry for land to the money has gone. (Interruptions) be acquired for the rehabilitation of those who are going t obe affected by Even the light seems to be protesting. the Naval Project. A public announce- I do not know. They are getting the ment was made by the P.M. at a pub- power-cut here also. lic meeting at Karwar where the Chief THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. Minister was on the same platform. NARAYANASAMY): Because Mr. He was happy. He said, "Yes". Chandre Gowda is interfering all or a Immediately the money was re- sudden. eased to them. Sir, not one inch of land has been acquired, and there SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: It is not one, even one pie, of the Rs. 20 is his magnetic personality which is crores left in the treasury at Karwar affecting the light. or in Bangalore. The head itself is mis- sing. What happened to the money? They promised to stop the system I am not judging anyone. I am only of capitation, fees. 1 just want to men- saying, I am a Member or the Rehabi- tion about this because it has been litation Committee. I had raises it in talked about. Eight medical colleges the officers' meeting in front of the with capitaion fee were sanctioned Prime Minister recently at Bangalore. after they came; 30 engineering col- I said, "what do I do? There is no leges with capitation fees were sanc- money." They tell the local people tioned; and 150 polytechnics again "The Central Government is not allow- with capitation fees were sancioned. ing us to take forest land," as he said. Medical seats with capitaion which If we were to give the forest land, were 683, went up to 2200 in 1989. where was the need to give Rs. 20 They say, we have tampered with it. crores to the Government or Kama- A person who cannot afford to pay taka to acquire land; We would have the capitation fee, does mo get it- All given the forest land ourselves. The colleges, medical and other colleges, understanding was that you were to everything is with capitation fee- But acquire land. You needed the money. there is higher fees being charged for In advance we gave it. The money has students from outside because we do gone. . Rehabilitation is in our hands. want that the students of Kamataka And there is no land for rehabilitation. should get the same benefits at last They are telling the people, "The Cen- and are able to get some seats without tre is not giving the land. What can paying so much. If money has to be we do?" Can I manufacture land in collected, let it be collected from out- Karwar for them? But the money has side students who want to go to these been spent very easily. It is not there colleges, but let the Karnataka stu any more. It is a question which we dents pay lesser fees. Even that they would like to ask. object to.

; 339 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 340 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 [Shrimati Margaret Alva] "It was an unusual decision to amend the excise rule after the bot- I am telling you, this has become tling contract has been decided". such a racket today that even for ad- The parties have been decided—eight mission to primary schools and for . of them—and then they amend the admission to first standard they are rule to accommodate them into that asking for capitation fee. How can you rule. run an educational system which is based on paying or even admission What the Supreme Court has said into primary schools and into KG here is: schools. The whole system has become so value-based that everything has a "An unusual, wilful and perverse . value today, whether it is a primary way of exercising the power of dis- school seat or a medical seat or per- tributing State largesses." haps also an MLA's seat. I do not know. This is the quotation from the judg- ment. What I am trying to say here Sir, arrak has been spoken about. is that the Government tried to amend From 6,000 arrack shops in 1983, today the rules and change policy. In this we have 14,000. The figures have been context the High Court has also obser- made available. ved and I quote:

About excise evasion, Indian-made "It looks to us that the so-called foreign liquor has been talked about. policy decision was only an after- They say that the Governor's action in thought tailored to meet the situ- taking over this wholesale trade is ation and the principle purported to politically motivated. Why? Is it be- be enunciated by the Excise Com- cause certain officers have began to missioner was a mere pretext desi- dry up after the Government took over gned to eliminated all except the the wholesale trade? Is it because chosen few"." ' some political interests have been affected after the Governor This is the judgment of the Court took it ud? Mr. Hegde has said it. I and They say that we are making poli- am very surprised why he made the tical propaganda. None of us went to statement that it is politically motiva- the Court That was a battle between ted? If it is politically motivated that two lobbies. And here there is on means, that some political people are record the objection of the Home Sec- affected They admitted this by mak- retary, the objection of the Deputy ing statements like this. Secretary (Finance)—all are on record, I do want to say that there was a on the flies—which was over-ruled and famous liquor bottling, arrack or it is said: whatever case it was, I have with me just two sentences from that judg- "This has been discussed with the ment which I want to read, because Chief Minister and orders may, therefore, be passed by the Excise they sav that these are all false "char- Commissioner." ges. I ami not making any false char- ges. I have "got the greatest respect There are just two or three more for everybody in this case, but I am points. There were cases of cooperative just saying here what has been said sugar factories being sold to private by the Supreme Court. "That was parties. I wonder if all those who be- indeed curious" talking about the lieve in cooperatives think that this action they took. "But things got curi- was one of the best things that the auser and curiouser Alice would have think-tank should have suggested for said"—that is the judgment. They go Karnatska. (Interruptions} Then all on to say and I quote: the public sector units which are 341 Budget (.Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karriataka Appropriation 342 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 running at loss should be abandoned Karnataka. The list is there. There and given to private parties like Tatas Were 125. There is also a resolution and Birlas and whoever it is to run of the BDA by which these were relea- it. We know what we are giving and sed to journalists also from outside what we' are retaining. Karnataka. If they were of Karnataka, we had no objection.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is the policy of the Government now. Now, the question is that we are faced with the Budget. Figures are here before us. Money has been relea- SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: ID. sed for urgent needs. Some kind of this context you should have aband- local finances have to be raised. oned the entire idea of cooperative The moment the Governor talked movement in Karnatka. If you don't about some methods they say: "This is believe in the cooperative movement, President's rule, how can you raise you should say let us do aWay with this? How can you raise that? This is these things. That is my point. not popular." Sir, until the popular rule the finances have to come. Our We gave them the Central Gov- Finance Minister will give you figures ernment projects. The Indira Avaa of how much has already been relea- Yojna became the Nazeer Avas Yojna sed as special advances and grants in Karnataka. Money was given from to Karnataka to pay the pending bills here, the project was from here and on every front which had been left it was named after Nazeer. Pro- behind because without money the jects given from here are given administration Was coming to a stand- local names to show that they Were still. But now everybody says: It is theirs. They give their own names and President's rule. their versions of it.

They ended up with a number of crises. They ended up with the silk yarn crisis. They ended up with the nth • It is not possible for Delhi to pay power crisis. They ended up with D W everything. Some resources have to be power cuts. Everything went wrong raised locally and everytime the there and they always said that the Governor makes an effort through the Centre was to blame. In the middle administration to raise some ossources, of it when there was no money for there is a hue and cry. The same anything, publicity campaigns were on- thing happened, I admit it, with the Unofficially we were told Rs. 35 crores rise of bus fares. There is a commit- were spent on publication of books, ment made by the previous Govern- on video recordings, and on publicity ment that they would raise the salaries campaigns. Officially, of course, they of KSRTC staff, the road transport. say Rs. 8 crores. but the figures are There is no money and so it was there. These were to get publications said that if It is to be done if they of a fantastic nature. The image have to be given the raise, then we building programme was on it a big have to raise some extra revenue by way. I want to tell you whether it way of increased fares. But Imme- was in E»elhi or elsewhere, the Press diately they themselves objected. was always looked after very well Everybody objected. Our party people and there was a lot of entertaining. objected. I am not saying, 'no'. It was We also know what happened to some of the big newspaper men who were a popular thing: "Don't raise fares. very well accommodated within some It is the common people's transport." of the plots that were distributed in So the Governor withdrew the order. Bui the point is that higher salaries 343 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Kamataka Appropriation 344 1989-90 and Bill 1989 [Shrimati Margaret Alva] PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: Madam, just one minute. Mr. Vice-Chairman, still have to be paid. Somebody has Sir, this is nothing very new.. Very to pay them. Where does the money recently when there was four-party come from? So the salary rise was conference in Vizag, the Railway there and then, of course, the number Ministry refused permission for hold- of bills which were pending were ing the meeting and they had to seek cleared a place elsewhere in a college and held the meeting. I think this is the type of game which is going on. Sir, I would like to say here over the last lew weeks a numbe of things THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHR1 V. have been done. The Binny Mills, for NARAYANASAMY): Are you seeking instance, which was closed for a long clarification or you are on a point of time has been opened. The workers order? are going back to work after the SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: settlement and I think it is a great Are you justifying what happend in achievement of the last few weeks. The Karnataka?, VSIL which was really in trouble is being taken over by SAIL and will PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: I am not soon be put on the rails. Sir, food justifying. I am only saying what the supplies have been rushed, special Government of India has done. allotments have been made for Kama- taka and PDS is being revamped and SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: being made more efficient to respond Whether it happens in Andhra or to the needs of the common people. Karnataka, I condemn it.

PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: No, no. They spoke about transfers. Sir, Don't bring in Andhra. It happened there were favourites entrenched in because of the Railway Ministry. some of the areas in Karnataka who could not be touched. They spoke SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: about Mr. Jalappa, the former Home- It is wrong, no matter -where it hap- Minister. I will mention him a little pens. If my department does it, I wi!l while later. I have had my own ex- say it is Wrong. I am not justifying perience when I went to that consti- it. But' my point is that ...... tuency once for a meeting. Sir, the police refused permission for the PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA; I am public meeting saying that time has only saying how the Ministry and the been booked by the other party and Government'is functioning. The Minis- that, party would start the meeting. try of Railways did the same thing I said let us not have a clash. Let us only a week back. sit for 2£ hours. A Union Minister ■ was made to sit saying that the same SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: time has been given by the police to They spoke about our transferring the other party and you cannot have the Scheduled Castes officers. Some of a meeting, though we had applied two the figures were given by Mr. Hanu- weeks in advance. Then, Anally, Sir, manthappa. I just want to point out when it went on and on and on we the atrocities on Harijans—I am not had to connect—they would not even talking of general law and order— give us power supply—our loudspea- Which shows a rise over the last few kers to the car batteries and we had years. Sir, the number of incidents our meeting In the other part of recorded and" that was their police the town. This was the way the ad- record it was not ours—in 1983, 329 ministration was entrenched and made incidents took, place. They went up it impossible for anybody to function. to 553 incidents in 1985. They went up 345 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 346 1989-90 and Bill, 1989

to 637 in. Sir, the number 0f Janata Dai or whatever it is. inderruptions injured from 524 in 1983 has gone up terruptions). to 793 in 1988. I ami talking only of the record. They have a special cell I THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. for atrocities on Harijans in Karna- [NARAYANASAMY); Order please. taka. These are the figures which have been recorded and if I give you the •SHRIMAT1 MARGARET ALVA: figures of death, again from 44 in The other thing which has come re- 1983, it has gone up to 61 in 1988. peatedly and I do not want to repeat, It is from the Karnataka Home Minis- - is the question of various land scan- try's record and so if you say that dals. But I belong to Bangalore and everything is fine because it is an op I want to sayhat we have had a position Government and it only hap- system of a green belt around Ben- pens in Congress States like somebody galore, to keep the city clean. Sir, tried to say, it is something that none during the Janata rule, the green of us would accept. Yes, some trans- belt has disappeared. It has become a fers have taken place and some trans- housing colony. Special exemptions fers will take place because the ad- have been given in spite of the Karna- ministration has to be revamped, taka Land Reforms Act and now we has to be put on the right lines and are talking of the NRI societies. Sir, has to go on. Sir, I want to say that I was in the United States in Chicago some matters are in Courts and so I for a big function and the Karnataka won't' go into details. But I just Government delegation was coming want to point out oneing here. A thenext morning—a 19 member dele- man who was named in the death gation headed by the Chief Minister— statement, a police officer in Gulbarga and 19.rooms were booked for them by a journalist, who was done to and Sir, what were they coming for? death, who named a police officer, as For NRls' investment to' be mobilised the one responsible forhis murder, in Karnataka. The local Indian coror is promoted and brought to Bangalore munity organised a function where I and made a Superintendent of Police distributed some awards. At that time, at Bangalore and then one year they told me that they (the Karnataka after, he is involved in the next Government Delegation) are coming murder. I am not saying he is for investment in the power sector, guilty. But he and the Home Minis- and I was very happy because Karna- ter together, Mr. Narayan and Mr. taka did need investment in the Jalappa are today standing trial in power sector and most of them were the criminal court for murder of Mr. from Karnataka. I said, it is a very Rashid, a young lawyer from Kerala. good idea. I think, you need to invest The officer who is charged in one in Karnataka. Ultimately, what hap- place is promoted and brought to pened? What has come out now? They Bangalore and within one-and-a-half went with glossy brochures of housing years, he is facing the next murder colonies for selling land in Bangalore trial as a police officer with the Home to NRIs. Now, when I have gone Minister and this is what they are through the "detailed records—I won't talking about-administration in Karna- fake more time is here ond. • taka—which is supposed to have been Without being registered—Mr. D. B. ideal under Janata Party rule. Sir, Chandra Gowda has gone away, he have you heard of the Home Minister said, "proposed, proposed"—without standing trial for murder during his the society being registered, 110 acres term of office where he had to resign? were allotted to these societies. Is it These are the types of incidents which ever "done? The dates of registration I think have not brought much credit are afterwards. They Were to be re- to Karnataka or to the Government gistered even then as a private society. whether you wanted Janata Party or Instead they went and registered it as 347 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 34 8 1988-90 and Sill, 1989 [Shrimati Margaret Alva] Inquiry. But the facts will reveal that what we were talking all this time a company. All the rules were violated were facts and they were not just and everybody was saying, nobody is political insinuations which were involved. Mr. D. B. Chandra Gowda is made. not here. I aim just reading two reso- lutions which are significant and this Sir, finally—the Finance Minister one is from the Bangalore Develop- himself.is here, and here, I am speak- ment Authority records where they ing as an M.P. from Karnataka, not say, "Consequent to the discussion and as a Minister—I am appealing that intsructions of minister someof our important projects need of Karnataka with the private deve- immediate attention. We are also all lopment builders held on 4-9-89, this the time pressurising. Sir, power gene- resolution is being placed for approval ration and irrigation are the great as per his directions." This is the need of Karnataka today. The battle record in the Bangalore Development that Dev Gowda had with the Chief Authority file and, Sir, here, I have Minister was over the question of also with me a letter written by the irrigation projects and the money that Private Secretary to the Chief Minis- was needed. Sir, I do want to say ter and here is a letter from the that the super thermal plant at Man- Chairman of the BDA, who says, "a galore would be of great help to us. special subject that the Authority may There are other projects pending like include is regarding this society'—in the Vijayanagar Steel Plant and the deference to the" letter dt. so ant! so refinery at Mangalore. I am told now of Shri Gopala Reddy Secretary that the Abid Hussain'Committee has to the Chief Minister regarding com- suggested that others should get -prio- plaints received during his recent trip rity over the Mangalore Refinery. I to the United States that the sites hope that there will be a second look are not being given faster.." This is the letter from the BDA Chairman. at it by the Planning Commission This is a letter from the BDA Chair- because these are the - commitments man. And there is a letter on record which we have made in Karnataka from theSecretary of the Chief Minis- and I think the people will expect us ter saying that theChief Minister to keep them. desires that this should be done. Sir, money has been collected, huge Sir, I have placed before you what amounts with agents in between, Karnataka went through over the last and the lands around Bangalore have few years. President's rule has come disappeared; green belt areas have and I agree with what the Members been sold; everything possible has said that President's rule is not Con- been done; and still we are being gress rule. But we are all in it told that this was a Government with together as far as Karnataka is con- value-based politics. We believed that cerned. It is not a party or it is not it was so. But now We realise what a governor, it is the people of Kar- the definition of 'value' was and what nataka who will hold the Janata they really meant when they talked Government responsible for all their about 'value'. There was value for deeds and misdeeds of the last six everything. And What is happening years. Sir they have left, leaving the in Karnataka today is, the party is treasury empty, absolutely bankrupt. known as 'land chore party'. All the And if this Budget has had to come land has been stolen, it has gone and here, perhaps, I keep saying, there there is nothing left. There is now must have been one bright star some- the Commission. Therefore, I do not where in their horoscope. At a time want to go into the details because When they had no money even to pay it is all before the Commission of salaries, they have had a rescue as it were, by the Central Government 349 Budget (Karnataka), [10 AUG. 1989] Karnataka Appropriation 350 1989-90 and Rill. 10AO and the Centre is trying to bale them worry? Once in Punjab, once in out by releasing, money, paying their PEPSU, once in Andhra Pradesh, once extra bills and trying to help out. in Kerala, once in Orissa and once also in Travancore-Cochin. But during I support the Budget and I would Mrs. Gandhi's time it became almost like to say that I hope that in the a regular feature to impose Presi- comani 'twfo or threes, with dent's rule in almost all States every the administration tightened, this kind alternate month. And in the present of wasteful expenditure coming to an regime of Rajiv Gandhi, as you are end and economy measures being quite aware, he has outbeaten all the brought in, Karnataka can look for- earlier rulers by resorting to des- ward to a brighter and more promis- tabilising his own' Ministries and his ing future. Thank you, Sir. own State Governments and changing various PCCs. Rajiv Gandhi has the DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: Mr. dubious distinction of shuffling and Vice-Chairman, Sir, I may be allowed reshuffling his Cabinet 27 times. He to speak from this seat. even has the distinction of changing his Chief Ministers 19 times in several Mrs. Alva wishes a bright future States; PCC presidents were changed for the people of Karnataka. I hope at least 45 times in several States in it will not be as things are for the the country. We know day and night people of Bihar and U.P. several non-MPs are sitting in the Central Hall and at least half of them SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: are from Andhra Pradesh. Likewise What about Andhra? even in the case of appointments to District Congress Committees, tehsil DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: committees or taluka committees the Andhra is all right. writ must go from Delhi, from the AICC. This way of doing things is SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: deleterious to the functioning of the Yes, Andhra is perfect. federal structure of the country. So what I would Ike to advise is ... DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: Sir, I took objection to Parliament AN HON. MEMBER; You want to passing the budgets of various State dictate from Delhi! Governments. As our friend mentioned DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: Yes, earlier, only during the last week we we will dictate from Delhi too. That passed the Budget and the Appropria- day is not far off. Because you are tion Bill for Punjab. Again the Union not having any government of yours Government brings the Budget of in Hyderabad, you are concentrating Karnataka and the Appropriation Bill. on DCCs and tehsil . committees and Time and again, it has become the practice of the Union Government to taluka committees... destabilise the State Governments that ; SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: are being run by the various non- Better than sitting in film studios. Congress parties. During Jawaharlal's tenure, in fourteen years, president's SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARA- rule was imposed onlyhtimes in JAN (Tamil Nadu): He is speaking as various States. if this debate is on AICC and PCCs and DCCS. SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: What about Charan Singh? DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: , What I want to advise you is that DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: I am it is not desirable to destabilise the coming to Charan Singh. Why do you State Governments, whichever State 351 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnatdka Appropriation 352 ISW-SO.and Bill, 1989 [Dr. Yelamanchili Sivaji] to power in 1980 several State Gov- ernments were dissolved... it is. During 1959 when Mrs. Gandhi SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: was the chairperson of the Congress What about Charan Singh? Party she started destabilising the con- stitutionally elected State Govern- SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARA- ments. She took the initiative for it. JAN: He had promised to come to In 1954 even In the erstwhile Andhra Charan Singh, but he never came. State also the then elected Govern- ment was dethroned by the Congress people by their own defections—the DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: I am Government of the late Prakasam coming to him. She said, "during Pantulu. Likewise in Gujarat, like- that period". I am coming to that... wise in several, other States—twice in (Interruptions)... During that period, Andhra Pradesh, three times in Assam, all the State Governments, all the five times in Bihar, eight times in State Legislatures, were running on Punjab, six times in Orissa, five times extended lease of life and the Consti- in Manipur. In almost all the States tution was changed and the Represen- the democratically elected Govern- tation of the People Act was changed ments were3oppled, And now it has by Mrs. Gandhi after putting all the become the practice for the Congress Opposition leaders in jail. You con» Party to destabilise its own party veniently changed the Constitution., (Interruptions1} governments. President's rule under Article 356 has been misused to settle the internal squabbles of the Congress Party, to settle scores within the SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Sir, Congress Party. In 1972 President's is he .talking about Karnataka or rule was imposed in Andhra Pradesh Andhra Pradesh? This is Karnataka and the then Chief Minister, Shri P. V. Budget,.. (Interruptions).,. Narasimha Rao, was asked to resign, and now he is sitting here as the DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: You Minister of External Affairs. At that extended the term for one year and time the Assembly was suspended but that is why Mr. Charan Singh deserves not dissolved. After settling scores our sympathies. There was nothing among the Congress Legislature Party wrong in what he did. But it was, Shri J. Vengal Rao was appointed as Sir, Mrs. Gandhi who abruptly dis- the Chief Minister and the suspension solved the Assembly within three was' revoked and the Assembly was years without completing the term.... convened once again. Likewise in (Interruptions). several other parts of the country. . Nowadays Mr. M. L. Fotedar is going on behalf of the Centre to different . SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: State capitals like Bhopal, Patna and Why are you permanently obsessed other places and he is blackmailing with Mrs. Gandhi? She is gone. the Congress legislators in those States threatening, unless they agree the writ DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: We from Delhi AtCC will come, we are do not leave her. We always oppose going to dissolve the State Assembly. her. We are always opposing Mrs. This is the dictum, this is the farce, Gandhi as well as Mr. Rajiv Gandhi. going on in various States. So what I We never left her... (Interruptions') would like to advise you is don't go in for shortcuts, it is not desirable SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: for the functioning of democracy and Mrs. Gandhi^ has proved to be more the federal structure in this country. powerful in Heath than what she was Soon after Mrs. Gandhi came back in life. They thought that she was finished... (Interruptions) 353 Budget karnataka 10 AUG.,1989 karnataka appriprition 354 (Madhya Pradesh; Sir, this cross- unoiuun TO ao so. This she said or talk, this cross conversation, is going 30-9-79. Then whose report is correct, on... (Interruptions),.. Mr. K. K. Shah's report of 28-1-76 or Mrs. Gandhi's statement on 30-9-79? SHRI TINDIVANAM This very clearly shows that the office RAMAN (Tamil Nadu): Sir, this cross- of Governor is being misused to desta- talk is going on. What is this?...... (In- bilize the State Governments and to terruptions}. ... settle scores in the Congress(I) Party. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. In the States ruled by the non-Con- NARAYANASASAMY MR. gress (I) parties, the Raj Bhavans are speak looking at me and not on that being used as the PCC(I) offices. side. - SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Oh! SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Sir, let him speak on Karnataka. We DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI; And want to hear him on Karnataka. most of the Governors are acting like de fecto Presidents of the PCCl(I)s. DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: What Unfortunately, there is a Governor, is there in Karnataka now? There is by name, Mr. P. Venkatasubbaiah, in lothing new in Karnataka . .Inter Karnataka. uuptions uptions)... SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: We are not supposed to SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Governors by name. You leave out the ["hen why are you speaking? name and you talk about the Governor •..... (Interruptions').... DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: We SHRI SATYA PRAKASH MALA- lo not like State Budgets to be VIYA: He is talking about the Gover- passednion Government nor and the Governor is Mr. P. Van- iere. We are basically opposed to the katasubbaiah. What is wrong? He can State Budgets being passed at Delhi, take any name. that hy we oppose this... (Intcr- uptions)..: Now, what happened in SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: Tamil nadu on the anuary You people do not know. Many of 976, when Shri K. K. Shah was the your were not here in the House. You Governor, he submitted a' report to do not know what happened. he Union Government stating that here were some irregularities in the DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI: Sir, unctioning of theState Government Mr. P. Venkatasubbaiah was the Gene- nd so, the State Government was re- ral Secretary of the AICC(I). aoved and an Inquiry Commission yas appointed under the chairmanship THAKUR: JAGATPAL SINGH: Sir, can the Governor be discussed here?

355 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Karnataka Appropriation 356 Bill, 1989 [Dr. Yelamanchih Sivaji PKUF C. LAKSHMANMA (Ananra Pradesh): This is a political prediction. State, from my district, and he is Mr. K. Brahmananda Reddy. He has also DR. YELAMANCHILI SIVAJI; Peo- got the dubious distinction of expelling ple have proved this in Tamil Nadu and Mrs. Gandhi from the Congress other places. So let us not extend Presi- 5 P.M. in 1978. So these two people dent's rule in Karnataka and let them who expelled Mrs. Gandhi go in for an early poll so that they can from the Congress Party are now face their Waterloo in Karnataka and acting as Governors. I am sorry that other parts of the country. Mrs. Alva says that they are close to, and they are aligning with, the Congress Party, Mrs. Gandhi and Mr. Rajiv Gandhi. THE VICErCHAIRMAN (SHRI V. They are not. They proved time and NARAYANASAMY): Shri P. N. Sukul. igain that they are not the well-wishers of Mrs. Gandhi and Congress Party. SHRI P. N. SUKUL: Mr. Vice- during1977-78 Mr. Brahmananda Reddy Chairman, Sir, die tragic tale of the went to the Shah Commission and be decline and fall of the Janata Govern- gavedence against Mrs. Gandhi. (In- ment in Karnataka could materialise terruptions) due as much to innerparty dissensions as to gross fiscal mismanagement. It SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: is a pity that the Janata Government iVhat is hetalking of? Why is he headed (by Mr. Ramkrishna Hegde talkingah Commission? If he so when it came to power, promised an wantst there be a debate on the Shan honest and clean Government, a cor- Dommission. Let him introduce it. (In- ruption-free Government, and that terruptions) Let there -be a discussion on very Government had to die an unit his. Why are you talking about it- mely death under the death weight Discuss it. (Interruptions) of corruption and nepotism. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Your time is up. SHRI SATYA PRAKASH MALA- You have to conclude now. (Interrup- VIYA: It was a murder. 'ions) SHRI P. N. SUKUL: It was not a AN HON. MEMBER; He should speak case of murder. It was not a case of on the karnataka only death. It was a case of suicide. (Inter- ruptions) THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Say something on Karnataka, (Interruptions) SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: An ex-home Minister of Karnataka is DR. YELAMANCHILI SlVAJI; I facing a charge of murder in Karna- iope that wise counsel will prevail upon taka, (Interruptions) ■ • hem and they will see that State Budgets are not passed at Delhi level. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Please allow him Unfortunately, nothing is mentioned to speak. (Interruptions). about the preparations for an early poll in Karnataka# I do not know whether SHRI P. N. SUKUL; He who is ex these people are going in for an extension pected to speak is not able to speak )f the term of Governor's rule in karna- and others are speaking and exchang- taka. It appears so. There is no rea- ing view! Sir, Mr. Chandre Gowda son . for... (Interruptions) What mean to who initiated thedebate started with :ay is that even with extension or with-. transfers under the present Gover- butextension they are bound to lose in nor's regime and he counted 65 trans- karnataka and esewweretates. fers of officers. He said that 65 officer* had been transferred. Do you know

357 Budget (Karnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Kamataka Appropriation 358 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 now many transiers too place when SHRI P. N. SUKUL: An old building theJanata Government started func- could not collapse during construction. tioning in Karnataka? Thousands It wag a new. building. and thousands of transfers took place costing crores of rupees to the SHRI R. s. NAIK: Sir, without col- State Exchequer and causing alot lecting full information, it is hot fair of inconvenience to the employees. Also on the part of the on. MeirTber t6 a lot of money was made. That is why speak like that. they were transferred. They were transferred in thousands, shri Hegde SHRI p. N. SUKUL; The building started his administration with that i am talking about was a new favouritism andpotism. It was at building and it collapsed during conl his instance that the Bangalore Deve- struction. As I was saying, nobody has lopment Authority placed order for ce- been punished becausethe contract ment with the State Corporation of had been awarded at the instance of Sikkim. You will be surprised to know the Chief Minister himself. The Chiel that hundred per cent cost was paid Minister withheld any diciplinary ac- in advance against all rules and all tion or punitive action against aH legal formalities. At the instance of the thosewho werefound guilty. Chief Minister, Mr. Hegde, contracts were awarded by the Bangalore In 1983, when this Government came Development Authority .to M/s Rashmi into power, there were 9000 seats in Contractors and M/s Khoday Contrac- engineering colleges and during six tors inviolation of all rules on the years these seats in engineering col- subject resulting in a loss of crores of leges increased to 15000. In 1983, there - rupees to the Bangalore Development were 800 seats in medical colleges Authority ad to the people who were and when the Janata Government to purchase plots of land. These ir- fell, the number was 2200. The num- regularities have already been pointed ber of polytechnics in 1983 was 63. out by the Committee on Public Under- takings of thestate Legislature. In [The Deputy Chairman in the CMr\ violation of Corporation rules, licences After six years, this number rose to for the construction of a muti-storeyed 113. Similarly, Madam, all the l.T.IS. building in Bangalore city was given and the dental colleges were all sanc- to M/s. Ganga Ram & Co. This build- tioned, opened ana multiplied. And ing collapsed during construction and obviously, our Chief Minister and about 100 people died. A judicial in- Ministers got heavy kickbacks. quiry was instituted and that judicial inquiry came out with a verdict SHRI MOHINDER SINGH LATHER against the owner of the company and (Haryana): Like Bofors. against the officers concerned. But dur- ing all these six years... SHRI P. N. SUKUL; Much more than that. A decision to abolish the SHRI R. s. NAIK (Karnataka); Sir, capitation fee was taken. But that decision is still in cold storage. Madam, I am on a point of order. Our hon. recently, just two or three months Member may not be aware that the back,'I went to Karnataka along with Ganga Ram building was an old the Joint Committee on Indian ' Medi- cal Council Bill of which I was the building. It did not collapseduring the Chairman. And we visited so many construction period. (Interruptions) medical colleges in the State and capi- tation fee medical colleges also. From THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRIV. each student Rs. 3 to Rs. 4 lakhs ara NARAYANASAMY): It is not a point taken as capitation fee for admission. (Interruptions) They are ©Den. The* of order. It is a point of information. are run on commercial basil. 359 Budget (Karnataka), [ IRAJYA SABHA] Karnataka. Appropriation 360 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 SHBI K. .G, MAHESWARAPPA:; some of you have also got something Madam, most of the medical colleges from that. That is why you are trying in Kamataka ale run by the Congress to defend him. (Interruptions) Madam, people. as we all know, the Karnataka High Court indicted the Government for SHRI P. N. SUKUL: Mr. Maheswa- awarding contract for bottling arrack rappa was a Member of that Com- to a selected few in contravention of mittee. the Excise rules. The High Court pas- (Interruptions) sed a severe stricture in the matter, called tho deal arbitrary, capricious THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. and even shocking. And the Supreme Maheswarappa, your name is listed Court later affirmed this verdict of the here. Please do not Interrupt him, High court. I have the Judgment of SHRI K. G. MAHESWARAPPA: the Supreme Court with me. For want They run by the Congress people. of time, I cannot quote from it. And it was then when the High Court's THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let him verdict came and the Supreme Court's make his speech. Why do you want to affirmation came that Mr. Rama- interrupt him unnecessarily? krishna Hegde had staged that drama of resignation. He resigned and then SHRI K. G. MAHESWARAPPA:; Withdrew his resignation. In this also, The Congress leaders are running crores and crores of rupees were col- them lected by the Chief Minister and others. And tax evasion due to the sale of SHRI R N. SUKUL; But during aH 'seconds' was to the tune of Rs. 300 these six years, who allowed them to crores. And Mr. Hegde earned crores open? During all these six years who by allowing the tax evasion through allowed them to Junction? How could the sale of 'seconds' ... new colleges, how could new courses

come up? Mr. Maheswarappa, do not ■ try to defend a lost case. SHRI ANAND SHARMA (Himachal " SHRI K. G. MAHESWARAPPA: Pradesh): That is why he is made the Who runs them now? Vice-President of the Janata DaL (Interruptions) SHRI p, N- SUKUL; Madam,, this SHRI p. N. SUKUL: Excise revenue is how the seats in the engineering, of _ the state in. 1982-83 was Rs. 220 medical and dental colleges were in- crores, and after Six years., in 1988-89, creased by the Janata Government. As it was still Rs. 300 crores only. There my friend, Mr. Hanumanthappa was should have been a growth of 2ft per saying, before 1983, there were 6,000 cent, but there was a paltry growth ol- wine shops in the State. But they be- io per cent Only. Madam, there are came 8,000 during-the Janata regime. 55 public sector undertakings in the State, in 1983, the accumulated loss of SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA:: all these 55 undertakings was only 6,000 became 15,000. Rs. 163 crores. But in a matter of six years under the Janata rule, this loss SHRI P. N. SUKUL: During , the increased to Rs,.. 700 crores; from election time in 1984, rectified spirit Rs. 163 crores to Rs. 700 crores, it was sold outside the State although means a loss of Rs. 537 crores in six there was a shortage in domestic con- years only. For example, in the Kar- sumption. It was being sold and in nataka State Road Transport Corpo- that, shady deal, the Chief Minister, ration in 1983 the loss was Rs. IS Mr. Ramkrishna. Hegde earned at least crores, but after six years the loss to Rs. 50 crores. (Interruptions) I think to Rs. 150 crores. This is the perform- 361 Budget (Kamataka), t 10 AUG. 1989 ] Kamataka Appropriation 362' 1989-90 and Bill, 1889 auce or the Janata Government, honest Madam, there are 28 sugar factories, Janata Government. in Kamataka in all the sectors, co- opertive sector, private sector, all the SHRI M S. GURUPADASWAMY; May I ask him to remember the per- sectors. Before the Hegde Government came to power, the total loss on all formance of your own Government at the Centre these sugar factories was Rs. 21 crores. And within six years, because of the mismanagement of the Janata rule, it SHRI P. N. SUKUL. Do not com- rose to Rs 60 crores, three times only pare, Analyse yourself first. You were in sugar mills. very honest. You claimed to be very honest, corruption free and value SHRI SATYA PRAKASH MALA-' based, (Interruptions). VIYA; Equivalent to the Bofors com mission

■ AN HON. MEMBER; And they charged value for everything. SHRI P. N. SUKUL; At least you could have equalled it, but you have] SHRI P. N. SUKUL; That is why far exceeded it. In the Bofors' case you started charging value for every- we do not know who has taken it but thing, for medical college seats, ifor here we know you have taken it, engineering college seats. Hegde has taken it and his Minister have taken it. , • SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY: * Your Prime Minister promised a clean The Gowribidnur co-operative sugao Government at the Centre. What hap- factory which had a distillery was sold pened to that? ta M/s. Kothari, a co-operative sugar factory sold to a private company, SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARA- M/s, Kothari for Rs. 4.5 crores, where JAN: It is there. as its real value was Rs. 10 crores The Kllegal co-operative sugar fac- SHRI P. N. SUKUL; In sericulture, tory was sold to M/s. Khodey and in 1983, there was a loss of Rs. 2 crores Company at a negotiated value of only in the industry. But after six • Rs. 2.5 crores, although its actual years this loss grew to Rs. 14 crores. value was Rs. 10 crores and our Chief Ana as Mrs. Margaret Alva was saying Minister got the kickbacks, and his a stage came that employees and teach- Ministers got the kickbacks. In july198?, ers were not getting their salaries. Hegde received a proposal for They were not getting their salaries. the sale of land in Hosur lay-out, The employees were not getting their Sarjapura, which my friend has men- DA in cash. They were not getting it tioned. And from whom? From N. G, in cash. Other Government servants in Monis and George Monis who live In' other States were getting it in cash Dubai, not in, India. They are not In- and so also the Central Government dian citizens. In a site mela at Lalbagh, servants. Mr. Hegde openly encouraged private SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMYS builders from abroad to build Banga- How could they live otherwise? lore. NRI Association Kamataka later came into the picture and 110 acres SHRI P. N. SUKUL; That was the of land was allotted to it. What was problem created by you and your ad- the value of this land taken from the ministration. association? It was Hs. 55 lakhs where- as it should have been Rs. 11 crores. It is really good that the State act- How much of kickbacks they must ministration has now taken over the have received just from one deal wholesale distribution Indian made There lies the ingenuity of Hegde and liquor. Company. 363 Budget (Karnataka), [RAJYA SABHA] Kamataka Appropriation 364 1989-90 and Bill, 1989 SHRI VITHALBHAI M,. PATEL Ceiling Act, and the property worth (Gujarat): A symbol of corruption. Rs. 2 crores was allowed to be sold at Rs. 7» lakhs. There was evasion of SHRI p, N. SUKUL; And. this pay- stamp duty obviously. Why it was ment was made without obtaining the done, because in that company, 50 per permission of the Reserve Bank of cent shares were held by the sisters of India which means in total violation of Mr. Hegde's son-in-law, and so within FERA rules. three days, permission was granted by the Chief Minister and the deal was SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA:. struck and finalised. As Mr. Hanu- What was the Central Government do- manthappa was saying—he did not In*? mention this fact that it was the sis- ters of Mr. Hegde's son-in-law.

■ - SHRI P. N. SUKUL.. That is what I am going to ask in the end ot my As my friend was saying earlier, in •geech as to what the Central Govern- 1983, farmers started Janata Ranga ment, should do. They should look into and so Janata Government. came to It and punish the guilty, whether it is power in Karnataka in 1983. Mr. Hegde the Chief Minister or any other man. declared 7 per cent interest on co- SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: operative loans to farmers and became May I bring to your kindnotice that their champion. The difference was to even the terms of reference to the be paid by the State Government. The Kuldip Singh Commission are only pro farmers paid Rs. 180 crores. But the posals. matching grant of Rs. 40 crores was not paid to the co-operative societies. SHRI P. N. SUKUL; You said so With the result, the co-operative so- many things about the Centre; I never clties were not in a position to grant disturbed you. Very patiently I was any further loans to the-farmers who bearing all of you. had already contributed Rs. 180 crores. ('Interruptions) The farmers got agita- SHRI VITHALBHAI M. PATEL: ted. They revolted and thousands and Why can't they digest? thousands of farmers had to be arres- ted. A3 my friend was saying, they SHRIMAT1 MARGARET ALVA: could not be accommodated in jails. When I replied, Mr. Chandre Gowda They were kept in schools, in hospitals was not in the House, I produced and in Government guest houses. This documents; I read out letters of the is what actually has happened. (Time- Chief Minister's Private Secretary; I bell rings) That is- why 1 say, Madam, read out the resolution of the BDA the farmers are not going to - support which said that on instructions and as the Janata Party now in Karnataka. desired by the Chief Minister we are making this allotment. I read out here SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: and copies are with me. BDA says it Have the elections and see. was allotted; he says it was proposed. The letter is here on record. SHRI P. N, SUKUL. Their fate is written on the wall. SHRI P. N. SUKUL; As my friend, SHRI SATYA PRAKASH .MALA. Mr. Hanumanthappa, was referring, VIYA; Why are you not holding the one Mr. Narayanaswamy owned land measuring 5 acres "and 24 guntas in elections? Karnataka in Jayanagar, Bangalore, SHRI p. N. SUKUL. We will hold He applied for permission to.sell that the elections. piece o? land to Messrs. Revajeethu Builders and it was granted within SHRI D. . CHANDRE GOWDA:: thttee days In violation of Urban Land When? ■ 365 Budget (Kdrnataka), [ 10 AUG. 1989 ] Karnataka Appropriation 266 1989-90 and Bill, 1989

SHRI P. N. SUKUL: First, let other SHRI VITHALBHAI M. PATEL: things be done. Let the Budget be That is the only way. passed. -- Madam, as you have said 'the time THAKUR JAG ATP AL SINGH: is up', I will not take more time. Mr. There is no other way. , the champion oi the people, when he was the Chief Minister, refused to pay bonus to his SHRI P. N. SUKUL: A thorough employees. Bonus has been paid by ' probe should be ordered. Only then the Central Government to its emp- the real character of Mr. Ramakrishna loyees. Many state Government have Hegde, his Ministers and others would .paid bonus to their employees. But Mr. Hegde said 'I do not agree, in become known to the people of India, principle'. He is such a reactionary to the people of Karnataka.... man. Can any progressive party support him?" 1 do not know how SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: you are joining hands. He said Welcome, please do it. (Interruptions) 'I do not believe in paying bonus to class III employees, to Class IV SHRI P. N. SUKUL; ....So that, employees'. As a result of this, the Karnataka Government employees are once again, the people of Karnataka not getting bonus. The Dearness Allow- cannot be befooled into electing their ance "they could not get in cash, D.A. instalment in cash, Bonus, they never to power. Thank you, got. My submission is, at least, during the President's Rule, they must get SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY: bonus. As I said, other State Govern- May i just remind my friend, Mr. ment employees are getting - bonus; Sukul, again? We welcome a probe U.P. Government employees, M.P. into all the irregularities committed by Government employees, Bihar Gov- ernment employees; most State Gov- the Government in Karnataka. (Inter- ernment employees, almost all. Simi- ruptionsy At the same time, 1 want a larly, Karnataka Government emp- probe, a thorough orobe, comprehen- loyees must also be granted bonus. Under the President's Rule, they sive probe, into all the irregularities, should be granted bonus. If full bonus misfeasance malfeasance, omissions cannot be granted, to start with, let and commission committed by the them be granted fifteen days' pay as Central Government here. (Interrup- bonus. • tions) SHRI ANAND SHARMA: They have made the State bankrupt.

SHRI P. N. SUKUL; They have brought the State to the brink of bankruptcy when President's Rule was clamped. As I said in reply to what Mr. Gowda had said a thorough probe should be ordered into all the irregu- larities that have come to the surface. have come to the surface.

SHRI ANAND SHARMA; It must be orderd.