INDEX COLORADO WATER CONSERVATION BOARD MEETING October 27, 1959 Page Report by Mr. Sparks on proposed plans by Bureau of Reclamation and Private Power Companies on transmission and marketing of Colorado River River Storage Project Power 2 Report from Colorado Water Investigation Commission Subcommittee on same subject read by Mr. Stapleton 9 General Discussion on Same 9 Proposed Resolution by Mr . Moses to Secretary of Interior requesting that 4 Upper Basin States be designated as primary mark8ting area for this power 26 Motion made and seconded to adopt Mr. Moses' resolu- tion 26 Discussion on r esolution 27 Motion passed to adopt Mr. Moses' resolution 28 Report from Mr. Sparks on resolution submitted to Board in Grand Junction meeting by Ground Water Commission 29 Civil Service status of Board staff reported by Mr. Sparks 30 Statement by Mr. Cuykendall on Ground Water Commission resolution 32 General discussion on ground water problem 35 Proposed resolution by Mr. Moses on ground water 43 Discussion on same resolution 43 Resolution proposed by Mr . Miller on ground water moved and passed 44 Committee to study and report on Dinosaur National Monume nt legislation composed of Mr. McCandless, Chairman, and Mr. Barnard and Mr. Nelson appointed by Vice-Chairman Stapleton 45 Report by Mr. Sparks on permanent pool for John Martin Reservoir and legislation proposed for same 46 General discussion on same 47 Motion made and passed that consideration of this legislation for proposed permanent pool be postponed 56 Request by Department of Navy for water for their oil shale development discussed 57 Discussion on meeting of Senate Select Committee on Natural Resources November 20, 1959, in Denver 60 Postponement of start of feasibility studies by Bureau on Colorado projects discussed 64

( 1 ) Page Narrows Project discussion 66 Resolution from Hotchkiss, Colorado on Redlands Mesa irrigation project read by Mr. Moses 67 Discussion on same 68 Request by Mr. Lew Williams for cooperative funds in the amount of $5,000 from Board to Bureau of Reclamation office at Durango to further studies on San Miguel Project 70 Discussion on this request 70 Motion made and seconded to appropriate this $5,000 71 Fruther discussion on same 71 Above motion amended and passed as amended 72 Resolution on ground water Appendix A

( 2 ) COLORADO WATER CONSERVATION BOARD MEETING Denver, Colorado October 27, 1959

Attendance Board Members Present Benjamin F. Stapleton, Jr. Vice-Chm. Denver Felix L. Sparks Director & Secretary Denver Frank Milenski Board Member La Junta L. E. 'Lew' Williams Board Member Norwood David Miller Board Member Greeley William Nelson Board Member Grd. Junction Clarence E. Burr Board Member Walden L. S. McCandless Board Member Craig F. M. Peterson Board Member Delta Richard E. Conour Board Member Del Norte J.E. Whitten Board Member Denver Duke Dunbar Board Member Denver W. M. Williams Board Member Denver Board Members Absent

Governor Steve McNichols Chairman Denver Others Attending

R. J. Moses Atty. for C.W.C.B. Alamosa J. H. Knights Bureau of Reclamation Denver J.M. Barrett Bureau of Reclamation Pueblo C.H. Jex S.W.Water Cons.Dist. Grd. Junction Charles Boustead S.E.Water Cons.Dist. Pueblo J. Sid Nichols S.E.Water Cons.Dist. Colo.Springs R. J. Bernard Colo.Water Well Drl.Assoc. Denver L. D. Morrill Engr. C.W.C.B. Delta Sam Chutkow Colo.Grd.Water Com. Akron F. L. Boydston, Jr. Engr. C. W.C.B. Denver John B. Barnard, Sr. Colo.Riv.Water Cons.Dist. Granby Charles 0. Plumb R. 3 Greeley Charles J. Beise S.E.Colo.Water Cons.Dist. Denver W. H. Hornby Denver Post Denver B. A. Holden Holden & Holden Hudson Floyd E. Brown Colo.State Univ. Ft. Collins F. C. Eddy San Luis Valley C.of C. Moffat D. W. Bence Tri-City Dist.Health Dpt. Aurora Don Hamburg Denver Water Board Denver John L. Heuschkel Grd.Water Com. Glenwood Spgs. Mills E. Bunger S.Platte Water Assoc. Wheatridge S. F. Elliot Grd. Water Com. Pueblo Ralph Sargent Public Service Co.of Colo. Denver J. R. Barkley Colo.Water Inv. Com. Loveland

i Others Attending (Con't.) C. K. Millen Pub.Serv.Co. of Colo. Denver Charles C. Fisk Denver Water Board Denver P.A. Danielson Ark.Valley Ditch Assn. Denver Irving F. Davis, Jr. Colo.State University Ft. Collins W. E. Code Colo.State University Ft. Collins M. W. Bittinger Colo.State University Ft. Collins Geo. W. Colburn Grd. Water Com. Denver John H. Cuykendall Grd. Water Com. Rogg en Walker Myers Grd. Water Com. Center James A. McDaniel Grd. Water Com. La Jara Lail W. Schmidt Grd. Water Com. Lamar Paul T. Boegeli U.S.G.S. Grd.Water Br. Denver E. A. Moulder U.S.G.S. Grd.Water Br. Denver Wallace T. Miller U.S.G.S. Sur.Water Br. Denver Richard L. Moore Colo.Game & Fish Dept. Denver D. J. Illige U.S.Fish & Wildlife Serv. Denver Edward L. Clark Dir.Colo.Dept. Nat. Res. Denver Floyd Oliver State Senator Greeley Art Price Hier & Price Castle Rock Archie B. Toner S.W.Colo.Water Cons.Dist. Pagosa Spgs. Ira C. Kelly S.W.Colo.Water Cons.Dist. Mancos W. S. Eakes S.W.Colo.Water Cons.Dist. Durango John W. Patterson· Denver Water Board Denver Frank E. Kendrick, Jr. State Representative Leadville Jack Hughes Tri-Cty.Water Cons.Dist. Montrose Elmer E. Martin S.E.Water Cons.Dist. Salida Virgil A. Segelki Water Well Service Wiggins R. D. Dirmeyer Colo.State Univ. Ft. Collins John B. Barnard, · Jr. 1st Asst. Atty • . Gen. Denver R. M. Gildersleeve Deputy Dir. C.W.C.B. Denver Harman Kallman Denver Post Denver Chuck Henning KOA TV Denver Barbara Browne Rocky Mtn. News Denver Philip P. Smith Colo.Riv.Water Cons. Dist. Glenwood Spgs. W. K. Smith Colo.Planning Com. Denver Lee Keating Adrnn.Secty. C.W.C.B. Denver

ii COLORADO WATER CONSERVATION BOARD MEETING P. U. C. HEARING ROOM 3RD FLOOR, STATE OFFICE BUILDING Denver, Colorado October 27, 1959

The meeting was called to order by the Vice-Chairman at 10:10 A. M. MR. STAPLETON: "We will call the meeting to order and knowing of your interest in the Reclamation Association meetings, for the time being we'll limit this to primarily the problems on the agenda today. First of all, I'd like to explain and apologize for our starting this meeting late. The Board has authorized a project for filming of a water film in connection with, primarily, the Upper Colorado River projects, and with a resume of the Colorado Water Conservation Board's activities in the State. We were there since about nine o 'clock getting those pictures taken and I am sorry we are late. I would like to acknowledge Senator Oliver's presence. It is good to have you with us, Senator. The first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of our last meeting in Grand Junction on September 16, 1959. The first draft was delivered to all members of the Board. Are there any additions or correc­ tions to the minutes as submitted to you? Hearing no objections I will entertain a motion that they be approved." MR . BURR: "I so move ." MR. STAPLETON: "It has been moved by Mr. Burr. " MR • MILENSKI : "I second the motion." MR. STAPLETON: "It has been seconded by Mr . Milenski. All those in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; opposed - the minutes of September 16th are approved.

I see Representative Kendrick here. \le are delighted to have you with us. As is our custom, we are recording all the minutes of this proceeding and any of our guests who care to speak, will you please use this microphone on my right which has a long cord on it so that we may record your remarks for pos­ terity. I ' d like at this time to introduce to the members of the Board and our guests , the first Director of Natural Resources for the State of Colorado, Dr. Clark. Dr . Clark, will you please stand? We are delighted to have you here with us and we are looking forward to your solving with us many of the problems that not only entail water but other natural re­ sources throughout the state. We will be happy to cooperate with you and any of your staff in any way that we can. " DR. CLARK: "Thank you . " MR. STAPLETON: "The next item on the agenda is the ques­ tion of power transmission and marketing from the Colorado River Storage Project . As you will recall, at our meeting in Grand Junction, we passed a resolution asking that the Colorado Water Conservation Board be invited to consult at an early date with the Bureau of Reclamation in regard to the Colorado River Storage power. I am glad to report that our resolution was timely acted upon. Within two weeks Mr. Sparks and members of his staff were invited to a meeting and I would like the Director now to summarize this." MR. SPARKS: "Gentlemen, I will use this relief map of the Upper Colorado River Basin which was fur­ nished to the Governor by Region 4 of the Bureau of Reclamation. As you know, this Board has never received any official invitation from the Bureau of Reclamation to participate in any of the plan­ ning stages for the transmission and marketing of power from the Colorado River Storage Project. This silence was somewhat disturbing to us and as a result we passed that resolution in Grand Junction. Immediately thereafter the Upper Colorado River Commission, in Cheyenne, Wyoming, adopted a similar resolution . Shortly after

-2- that we received an invitation to participate in a confer ence hel d in Salt Lake at which the private power companies presented a plan for transmission and marketing of Stor age Proj­ ect power . There, for the first time, we learned that the Bureau had evolved some tentative plans for the marketing of power. The Bureau plan generall y was this : the Bureau would construct very high voltage lines, 345 r:v lines, to certain points . The biggest pr o­ ducer, as you know, of stor age power is Glen Canyon on the Arizona- Utah border. That plant wi ll have an instal led generating capa­ city of 900 , 000 kilowatts . The tentative Bureau plan invol ves the construction of these high voltage transmission lines, and I might stat e that there are no comparable lines that I know of anywhere in the Rocky Mountain west at t his t ime. A 345 KV line south to Phoenix, Arizona; a 345 r:v line nor th to Salt Lake City up to this a r ea; a single 345 r:v line north to Utah; and one sout h to Phoenix, Arizona. An ­ other single 345 KV line west to the Four Cor­ ners area, Colorado and New Mexico, in the vicinity of Farmington here, and from that poi nt northeast through Colorado to the Cure­ canti Project, again a 345 r:v line, and from the Curecanti east over here to Puebl o . Now that was the basic 345 r:v l i nes that the Bureau proposed. " MR . NELSON: "One to Albuquerque too." MR . SPARKS : " Yes, and one on the southeast - I ' m sor ry - to Albuquerque, another 345 K.V line , so that the terminal points of these big lines would be Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Albuquerque and Pueblo . Then from the terminal point at Salt Lake City, smaller lines, 115 K.V lines, would be constructed into Flaming Gorge; from Flaming Gorge on north into Wyoming; and from Flaming Gorge west into Oak Cr eek, Colorado, and there to hook up with the Colorado-Big Thompson Project. The Co l or ado- Big Thompson Proj ect is also hooked in from Poncha Junction so a complete circl e would be est ablished be­ tween the three power producing projects .

-3- The cost of this estimated transmission line is important to our planning. This trans­ mission system by the Bureau was estimated to cost, in the last financial analyses, · $157,000 , 000 . I think in my memorandum I put $150,000, 000 but I left off $7,000,000. I couldn't read my notes very well that I brought back from Salt Lake. It is actually $157,000,000 that the Bureau estimated that these lines would cost. This is, of course, a staggering amount of money. For some years, the private power companies have been working on a plan to market the stor­ age project power. Now bear in mind that up to this point, the Secretary of Interior has not designated the marketing area for storage proj­ ect power. So it is obviously impossible to firm up the transmission system until it is known where the power is going. In other words, you can't build a pipeline to any place until you know where you are going to build it and how much water you are going to carry. So at this time these plans are in a tentative stage. We think that is not a very practical situation in which to work, nor not very practical condi­ tions under which the Bureau is working. Ue are now getting almost in the preconstruction stage for these transmission lines and the Bur­ eau can no longer be kept in the dark as to the power market. But in its tentative allocations the Bureau has assigned to the State of Colorado a market­ ing area for 545 megowatts of the storage proj­ ect power, which reduced into percentages, is something like 49% of the s torage project power. I don' t think we have any basic complaints upon that allocation to the State of Colorado, if that tentative plan is finalized. Anything less than that we feel we must resist in Colo­ rado because certainly we take the position that power allocation should follow somewhere between the water allocation and the revenue allocation. The 49% fits right into that cate­ gory, so we, at this time, have no complaint upon the allocation to the State of Colorado. But as I say, that is only tentative and is in the planning stage by Region 4 of the Bureau, and as far as we are able to determine, no instructions have been set down by the Secretary

-4- of Interior confirming this tentative plan . There is a very significant difference, in some respects, in the tentative Bureau plan and the tentative plan presented by the private power companies. The private power companies involved are the Public Service Company of Colorado, the Arizona Public Service Company, the Public Service Company of New Mexico, the Utah Light and Power Company and the Pacific Light and Power Company. Their plan involves, in a large part, construction of transmission lines by these private companies. Sometime ago we pointed out to the Board that the Utah Light and Power Company was constructing a 230 K:v line from the vicinity of Salt Lake City south to Springville, Utah, which is situated somewhere in here, quite a bit north of Glen Canyon. Now the basic system evolved by the power companies is the construction of multiple 230 K:v lines instead of one 345 K:v line. The private power companies feel that this multiple 230 system has many advantages over the 345 system. The tap in, for instance, is cheaper. Just to give you an example, it costs over a million dollars to tap in to any of these high voltage lines and the bigger the line, the more the cost to tap in to it. So anybody who is expecting to tap in to his home, who happens to be along this r oute, to get storage project power, is in for a very rude shock, because the initial large expense of high voltage t rans­ mission is in trying to reduce it to lower voltage. The use of multiple 230 K:v offers a gr eat many advantages - more facilities, less initial costs and better operation over the long term period. So at the present time the Utah Light and Power i s constructing a single 230 K:v line south to the southern part of Utah, and they say, irrespective of whether or not Glen Canyon is in existence, that the Board of Directors of that company and the Board of Directors of the Arizona Public Ser vice Company have already authorized the extension of that line to the Arizona border, at which point the Arizona Pub­ lic Service Company will pick it up and construct a 230 K:v line on into Phoenix, Arizona . They say they are going to do that irrespective of this project power. They point out that this

-5- project power is only about one- fifteenth of the total power that will be required by these five states - Arizona and the four upper basin states - by 1980, and that they therefore have to provide the overwhelming bulk of the power that is needed. Their argument is that Arizona has heavy power demands during the summer for air- conditioning and irrigation pumping; Utah has heavy demands for the winter per iod. There­ fore Arizona can furnish peak power to Utah in the winter and Utah can furnish peak power to Arizona in the summer. In that manner the capi­ tal investment of both companies is materially reduced. In addition to that, the private companies say that the Arizona Public Service Company will construct shortly, and have in operation by 1962, a · mujor thermal plant in the Four Corners country, and that from this thermal plant they will construct three 345 J0l lines into Phoenix, Arizona . You have to bear in mind that the heavy power user in these five states is the State of Arizona. The private power companies say ' We are going to build these lines anyway; why not utilize our lines? We can, as project power comes on, increase our 230 lines by multiple units . The cost will be much less to the Government and much less than the total com­ bined costs'. Now under the system proposed by the private power companies, they say that the combined cost to the Bureau and to them would be in the neighborhood of $122,000,000 as compared to the $157,000, 000 proposed by the Bureau of Reclamation, affecting a very sub­ stantial saving of something under $27, 000 , 000. Under the private system all of the trans­ mission in the States of Arizona, Utah, Wyoming and New Mexico would be taken care of by the private companies. Only Colorado would be served by lines to be constructed by the Bureau of Reclamation. Under their plan the Bureau of Reclamation would construct multiple 230 J0l lines to the Four Corne rs country and multiple 230 J0l lines into Curecanti and also 230 J0l lines into Poncha Junction. Remember the original Bureau plan proposed going into Pueblo with a 345 J0l line . The private companies point out

-6- that they already have transmission facilities from Poncha Junction into Pueblo and then into Denver, and they are willing to construct an­ other 230 K:v line from Poncha Junction. As a matter of fact, as far as the project is concerned, the private plan would reduce the cost to the Federal Gover nment from $157,000,000 to $42, 000,000. That ' s about $115,000,000 in savings to the Federal Government, which is a lot of money . The importance to us is that then, instead of the transmission lines competing for money from the Bureau of the Bud­ get, that money could then be utilized to build water projects, essentially the business of this Board. In other words, the tentative savings that would be realized from this private system would mean that we could more than construct Curecanti and several other projects with the savings that would be made . So from that point of view, the private power companies' plan has a tremendous attraction. On the other hand it is filled with a num­ ber of pitfalls . The law states that the pre­ ference users are entitled to this project power, and I believe that it is encumbent upon this Board to make every effort to see that the intent of the law is carried out . The private companies ' answer to this is : ' We know this, we know this has to go to the preference users, but you are going to have more power than you can market in the initial stages of the project development and you have got to sell that power and the only people that can take it are the private power companies . We are willing to take this power and as the demand increases by the preference users, we, of course, will have to turn that power over to them and we will have facilities availabl e to give them the power at the points they want it'. That ' s the argument they use for getting into the picture. The part about there being surplus power when the project starts in operation is entirely true . l:le will have to market a large quantity of power when it becomes available. But bear in mind this - the Bureau has not included the State of Arizona in ·any permanent allocation for power, but when there is excess power the Bureau says, and I think correctly so, then here

- 7- is a tremendous market that is ready-made for the excess power. So the State of Arizona is included in the initial marketing of power and the inclusion of Arizona has the additional advantage of hooking up Hoover Dam power with the storage project power. Another pitfall of the private plan is that to be successful there must be an abso­ lute guarantee that these transmission facili­ ties which are owned and operated by the pri­ vate power companies, always remain available for project power. If that cannot be insured then these transmission lines are not of much value to us. The facilities must always be available for the project power and at area­ sonable cost. Now how that can be guaranteed is a matter on which we have heard no explana­ tion as yet . Ne ither have we heard as to the charges the public service companies will make for the wheeling of project power, which again is a critical factor. It is obvious that the private companies intend to utilize all of the secondary power, the dump power as it is commonly called, for their own purposes. They say the savings that will be affected will be passed on to their customers. I don't exactly follow that out but in any event they figure that by having their transmission lines here, they will pick up the secondary power. It is of tremendous importance to us that a minimum amount of secondary power will be marketed. In other wo rds, we are after the firm power to make this project go. Under the private plan the Bureau will also construct a small , a 115 KV, line from Flaming Gorge over to the Oak Cr eek area and there will hook in again with the Colorado-Big Tom Project and then be wheeled over the exist­ ing facilities of that project and the existing facilities of the Public Service Company of Colorado. Our engineering staff has gone over this plan in some detail since the Salt Lake meeting. We have concluded that the plan presented by the private companies would take care of the amount of power which has been tentatively allocated to the State of Colorado, 535 megowatts. ile

- 8- have not firmed up anything as yet with the preference users who were also invited to the Salt Lake meeting . There has been an inter­ state committee set up of prefer ence users - Mr. Howard Scott is Chairman of that Interstate Preference Users Committee. No doubt they will have some comments to make upon this plan pro­ posed by the private companies. That essentially was the plan that was presented to us. I don't know what action can be taken on it by the Board at this time . I know that the Board members will undoubtedly have some comments or questions. " MR . STAPLETON: " Before we get into any comments , as you know, at our meeting in Grand Junction, we asked the Colorado Water Investigation Commit­ tee to work on this problem and we have a re­ por t from Mr. J . R. Barkley, Chairman, which states that they met on October 22nd . The fol­ lowing is their report: ' The Committee is expediting the collec­ tion of potential load and resource data in an effort to determine tentative power allocations and, thereby, arrive at a position which may just ify a request for allocation from the Secre­ tar y of the Interior. Meanwhile, the Committee studies have pro­ gressed sufficiently to permit a recommendation which will not compromise Colorado' s basic position of primary interest in the power reve­ nues which may be derived from the Storage· Project. Based upon those studies to date, the Investigation Commission recommends that the Co l orado Water Conservation Board, in conjunc­ tion with the other States of the Uppe r Divi­ s i on, for ward to the Secretar y of the Interior a r equest that the four Uppe r Division States be designated as the primary mar ket area for Col orado River Stor age Proj ect power.' With that in mind, I will entertain com­ ments from the Board at this time . Mr. Peterson." MR . PETERSON: "I also attended that meeting at Salt Lake and I have some comments concerning the pre-

-9- sentation that was made at that meeting that I would like to state now. After the presentation by the private power companies at the Salt Lake meeting, cer­ tain questions were asked them and I think many of these questions were pertinent and have to do with the· welfare of the State of Colorado. For instance, Larry brought out the statement that they would wheel power for the preference cus­ tomers as required by the law. The question was asked them: ' What capacity in your lines would be set aside for this?'. The only state­ ment they made was that all the available capa­ city beyond their requirements would be made available. Now that's very indefinite. Another thing - these lines that Mr . Sparks has pointed out on the map - many of them were set up in phases. The first phase did not include any line from Glen Canyon into Colorado. The first phase was only a nort~ and south line from Salt Lake through to Phoenix which would, of course, tie into the Glen Canyon plant . Now I have a question concerning that, should that come to pass, if that first phase would be constructed without any definite guarantee that further phases would be con­ structed, what would the results be if that first phase was constructed and in operation before any other phase was constructed? The power companies could very well say it is not necessary to construct any further phases as they are taking all of the power from Glen Can­ yon and therefore it is not necessary to con­ struct any other phases. I am afraid of that. I feel that the Bureau of Reclamation in order to sell the most firm power at the highest price, in order to make the Basin Fund l arger so that we could build the participating proj ­ ects and make the projects pay out , should have complete freedom of shifting power requirements from one project, from one dam, to another dam. In a low water year in a particular drainage it might be necessary to shift a good deal of power from another dam where there is a high amount of runoff to the low runoff area in order to provide the market. I think the Bur­ eau should have complete freedom to do so and I believe the only way they can have complete

-10- freedom to do so is through their own construc­ tion and operation of transmission lines. Now admitting the fact that the private power companies would reduce the cost of the project by constructing these transmission lines, I think over the period of operation it becomes peanuts when you consider the differ­ ence in price between dump power and firm power. Firm power rates are set up in the neighborhood of 6 mills whereas the dump power rate is pro­ bably in the neighborhood of 2 mills . Two mill power will not provide any funds for the parti­ cipating p r ojects and therefore the participat­ ing project fund would not receive any funds from dump power. The only way to get the most firm power sold is that these plants a r e tied together with transmission lines that power loads can be shifted from one to another . I think the Bur eau should have that entire privi­ lege without going to any other party to re­ quest permission to do so. Another thing that bothers me is that they show in their plans three 345 megowatt lines from Glen Canyon to Phoenix. Even though Ari­ zona would have a large refrige ration and air­ conditioning load pumping those in the summer time , I still don' t see why it would take that much . That is a tremendous amount of capacity. That ' s more than comes out of Glen Canyon in any other direction under their plan. There is one significant thing that at Phoenix, a Southern California transmission line ties in at Phoenix. This power could go into southern California very nicely from Glen Canyon if the capacity was built to these . Therefore, I can't help but feel that this might be another means of California perhaps not only getting our water but al so our power. Those are some of the things that at the moment have not been clarified and I believe that it is essential that the most money be re­ ceived out of this power in order to make this project work . Unless it is done that way, I think we are violating the intent of the law and I think we are cutting our own throats - that the small amount that can be saved by the construction of the transmission lines by the private companies is a very minute part of the

-11- overall advantages when you compare the dif­ ference between dump power and firm power and the volume involved." MR. CONOUR: " Mr . Peterson, is it your view that the transmission lines should be built by the Bureau?" MR. PETERSON: "Absolutely - .the lines to tie the plants together especially. I am not opposed as far as the plan goes at the present time. Actually, I think it is the duty, under the law, for the Bureau to make available to the people, the firm power available to the people, but at least we need to have these plants tied to­ gether so we can get the most benefit out of the plants . I think this is essential. I think the Bureau of Reclamation should construct and operate and maintain those lines tying these plants in the Upper Colorado River basin to­ gether." MR. STAPLETON: "Are there any additional comments from any other members of the Board?" MR. NELSON: "Mr. Chairman, I am new on this power matter. I don't know a great deal about it but it would seem to me that we would cer­ tainly want to be sure to get the lines from Glen Canyon earlier than what we were told under the private investors' plan. I think we should get them in there in the early 1960's instead of 1970 which, for all practical pur­ poses, was in their plan." MR. STAPLETON: "Are there any other comments from the members of the Board? Do any of our guests have any comments they would like to make? Mr. Sargent." MR. SARGENT: "I didn't know that this matter was going to be before the Water Board this morning. I do feel, however, that Mr. Sparks has given the Board a very clear explanation as to the status of the problem as it presently exists. That is, the Bureau has made a presentation and the private companies have now made a pre­ sentation back to the Bureau. I believe that

-12- Mr . Sparks ' outline of that proposal that we have made is a pretty fair statement of the situation at the present time. With respect to the comments of Mr . Peter­ son, let me first say that I agree with Mr . Peterson 100 percent that there are aspects about this problem at this stage that are in­ defi nite, and that is necessarily so, because remember we still don' t know how much power has actually been allocated to Colorado or to any of the other states . We have based our studies simply upon the tentative ·allocations that were made by the Bureau in its initial study. So as far as coming down to details as to what wheeling charges might be and line capacity and the utilization of those line capacities, we can't, at this time, crystal­ lize those plans, but those will be something that will have to be wo r ked out very carefully between ourselves and the Bureau and the pre­ ference customers in the area who will ulti­ mately probably take most of the power from the Colorado River Storage Project. With r espect to the three phases of the Public Service Companies ' proposal , and the private utilities companies ' proposal , the fir st phase is actually the facility that will be built irrespective of the p r oject . I can see from the presentation that was made t hat this might be ambiguous . Now the second phase is actually the facilities which we p r opose should be constructed p rior to the initial operation of the proj ect. I am completely in sympat hy with Mr . Nelson, to the extent that when we are talking about a Bureau line running from Glen Canyon to Poncha we are suggesting t hat one 230 circuit be constructed immediately so that when power becomes available from Glen Canyon, we will be in a position t o r eceive power from Glen Canyon in Colorado by the time the f irst power becomes available at Glen Can­ yon. Then in the third phase, and incidentally we also recommend that a 115 KV line be built from Flaming Gorge to Oak Creek in the second phase (we got into trouble in using these terms) but the second phase is what we are suggesting be the facilities that will be in operation pri or to the initial operation of the p r oject.

-13- What we are suggesting as far as Colorado is concerned for the third phase relates to a second circuit, 230 lines, by the Bureau that would be built from Glen Canyon to Poncha, plus the facilities that we would build in our system to firm up the system and that would be the third phase of the plan. But at this stage of the thing, the pri­ mary concern of the state should be to initiate the construction by the Bureau of the first 230 circuit from Glen to Poncha and the 115 to Oak Creek. We are completely in accord with that and it is consistent with our presentation. The only other thing I want to say is with respect to arrangements of this type. There's nothing unique about this arrangement . It's surprising to me , as I go around the state, to find how few people really realize how the Colorado-Big Thompson Project works . We have what is called a Rocky Mountain Power Pool. I am no engineering expert as all of you can say who know me, but I can say this, that the Colo­ rado-Big Thompson Project is today fully inte­ grated with our system, with the Pacific Power and Light system in Wyoming , with the Consum­ ers' Power District in Nebraska, and the power flows all over that system in all directions most hours of the day. Actually, in our facili­ ties today, we have 500 miles of transmission in this state that is presently being used to wheel power from the Colorado-Big Thompson Project to preference customers in all parts of the state . There isn' t anything new about this thing - it has worked. As a matter of fact our company was a pioneer, nationally, in working out this type of arrangement with the Bureau and it has wor ked out satisfactorily. All I am suggesting is that consideration be given to this same type of arrangement in connection with marketing the Colorado River Storage Project power. Obviously to the extent that investment by the Bureau made by us, that is, the investment that would otherwise be made by the Bureau but is made by our companies, that becomes tax based in the state. So we are actually talking about making an investment in all of these states of $88,000,000 which will all be tax based. That's another factor in this thing too.

-14- I don't think that this Board ought to pass on the merits or the demerits of this pro­ posal at this particular time. If the Board would like, we would be delighted to have our engineers come to the Board and make the full presentation to the Boar d as to what we pro­ pose. I think the important thing at this time is that we firm up the amount of power that the state needs and fir m up the request for alloca­ tion that we are trying to make and to give consideration t o this suggestion that came out of the Colorado Water Investigation Commission, and that i s that this Board might, in conjunc­ tion with the other states, give some consid­ e ration to having the Secretary designate the upper basin states as the primary power market­ ing area. I appreciate your time. Thank you very much." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Sargent, you then agree with Mr . Barkley' s conclusion?" MR. SARGENT: "Oh , yes . I participated in the subcom­ mittee through which that came." MR. STAPLETON : " Mr . Barkley, would you mind telling us who the members of your power committee are so that the members and guests will know?" MR • BARKLEY: "As you recall, you requested the Investi­ gation Commission to take this matter under consideration via a special committee and the Commission designated Mr. L. N. McClellan as Chairman of that committee; a member of your staff , Mr . Kuiper; Mr . John Bugas representing the Colorado- Ute Electric Association; and Mr . Keith Millen of the Public Service Company of Colorado. That' s the wor king committee. As advisors to that committee, there are Mr . Sar­ gent who has just spoke to you from the Public Service Company of Colorado, Mr . L. R. Patter­ son from the Public Servi ce Company of Co l orado, Mr . Howard Scott of the Colorado Association of Electric Cooperatives, and Mr . Dick Tremmel of Tri-State General and Transmission Association." MR . STAPLETON: "Then I take it, that accor ding to your re­ port, the recommendation was unanimous at this point."

-15- MR. BARKLEY: "That's correct." MR. NELSON: "Mr . Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Sparks a question. He mentioned the tentative allocation of power by the Bureau. Was that a recent allocation or is it one of several re­ ports ago?" MR. SPARKS: "Mr. Nelson, as you know, we have never received any previous information concerning these power allocations until the Salt Lake meeting. Actually the information that came to us, came through the Public Service Company. In other words, they told us that this was the Bureau plan. However, the Bureau representa­ tives were there and did not protest, so we took it for granted that it was their plan. As far as we know that is the latest plan." MR. SARGENT: "Mr. Stapleton, could I answer that ques­ tion?" MR. STAPLETON : "Mr. Sargent." MR. SARGENT: "I won 't belabor this point but to answer Mr. Nelson' s question, actually the unique thing about the presentation by the Bureau, which was made last July, was that they start out the meeting by saying there has been no allocation of power made and then they said this is the transmission system that we are propos­ ing. Then they said this transmission system will market this amount of power in the various states . So all we did was simply calculate backwards - we said that if this transmission system will deliver so much power in Colorado, that must be how much pow~ r they are tenta­ tively allocating to Colorado. We came back and asked 'Do we draw the conclusion that this was the power that you have allocated to Colo­ rado?', and they said ' No, there hasn't been any allocation of power to Colorado'. You can see that put our engineers into a difficult position in trying to plan a sys­ tem, because we don't know how much power is coming into the state . We took the assumptions, though, that they had used and that's what we based our assumptions on so there still has not been any allocation of power to Colorado, tenta­ tive or otherwise, except the result of figuring

-16- the amount of power which goes over the facili­ ties which they proposed." MR. NELSON: "Thank you. I was just confused about the terms here - the designation and allocation - and I was just trying to clarify that." MR. SPARKS: "Perhaps for a little more explanation , Mr . Nelson, that is the thing that we are dis­ turbed about. Region 4, apparently, is working under a great handicap . We don't know that that is fact, but we have to assume, from all circumstances, that Region 4 has never been ad­ vised as to what they are supposed to be study­ ing. Yet they have $720,000, or something like that, allocated for this nebulous study. The situation that is extremely disturbing is that we are on the eve of the preconstruction period. These transmission lines must be planned and under construction at least within the next two years and sooner, if possible . In other words, this next budget should contain money for preconstruction activities on the trans­ mission system. That is a must. Apparently Region 4 is right up against that deadline with no directions as to where they are going. It is an incredible situation. We have made certain proposals to this Board in order to try and get something done. We can see no conceivable reason why that allo­ cation shouldn't have been made four or five years ago. I want to amplify a little bit on what Mr. Sargent said. I didn't go into these phase systems because it was a somewhat difficult picture. In the plan presented by the private power companies, the Bureau, prior to the time the project power was available, would construct these transmission lines into Colorado. In other words, they would be in existence and capable of wheeling power by that one 230 KV line from Glen Canyon to the Four Corners, Curecanti, to Poncha and one 115 KV line from Flaming Gorge to Oak Creek, Colorado. Now those would be constructed prior to the time power became available from the Storage Proj­ ect. In other words, those are the transmission lines we are talking about getting under way next year or at the latest, the year after.

-17- After that, we would get into this third phase as the demand increased. Another 230 YJ1 line would run parallel to the first one, all the way to Poncha Junction. That is after the project power becomes available and as the in­ crease takes place. Certainly Colorado would not stand still for any plan that did not con­ template the immediate construction of trans­ mission lines into the State of Colorado as the first activity which the Bureau will undertake. And as I say, that has to get underway in the preconstruction stage next year." MR. NELSON: "I was confused as to just when these lines would be constructed in these phases." MR. SPARKS: "Ralph, you were right when you said your plan was confusing. The first phase was that certain lines would be already constructed by the private power companies without reference to the project power." MR. NELSON: "I was confused as to that." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Scott, would you like to take the microphone, please?" MR. SCOTT: "Gentlemen, I'm not sure that I can add a great deal to this but reference has been made to the preference users and the interstate grouping of them. I am chairman of that particu­ lar grouping, the Upper Basin Preference Users' Committee for the states in the Upper Division. We have had contact with Arizona but have ad­ vised them that we are concerned with the upper division states. We might put some of this into a different context. The first plan was a transmission system contained in the project report but it has been completely ignored and forgotten. The next one that was circulated or given any public­ ity at all, came from the preference users which was an all Bureau system, a naked backbone system, in which we tried to get these power plants interconnected leaving a considerable problem of delivery of power from the plants to the users. Now that's a point that has not been brought up here and it is of considerable importance. Incidentally, the Rural Electrics are private companies too. We always like to

-18- have it remembered that when you talk about private companies, we are also private even though we are preference. The high voltages we are talking about here, to break that down to a usable ·voltage for a small system like the average rural electric, is prohibitive. We just can't do it. Nor can you break it down for an average muni­ cipal system. When you talk ab0ut 230 KV or 345 KV it is too much for one small system. What we are talking about is a backbone system to tie together hydro-plants and existing steam plants and bring that power to load cen+ers but not to users. From the load centers it must thereafter be distributed to users. Even if we have this federal backbone system at high voltage it must be stepped down to 115 KV or 69 KV or even less, and then be carried along and delivered to someone. Colorado, from the presentation made by the commercial compa­ nies in Salt Lake, is all set. The only Bureau lines that are to be built are to be built for • the exclusive benefit of the State of Colorado except that New Mexico can come up to Four Cor­ ners and get it and will probably be in a po­ sition to do so. That's great stuff for Colo- ' rado but I don't know how it is going to set with users in other areas. Utah and Wyoming may find reason to object, if they end up by having to pay substantial charges for the de­ livery of this power, up and back through Utah when they may be 50 miles from the dam site. We also have the matter of the State of Arizona, which you are all familiar with, and the fact the State of Arizona has a state claim­ ing agency, the Arizona Power Authority, and it can go in and file and receive applications for preference users. They have a large number of preference users - irrigation districts, pumping districts, rural electrics - so they have a whole kit and caboodle of preference users in Arizona which are substantial and solid and have a great and growing demand for power. The Arizona Power Authority has filed with the Bureau a request for all the project power from Glen Canyon, all of it, and it is possible at the present time to make contracts for substan­ tial blocks of it all, with the claim their pre­ ference is -just as good as our preference even

·19- though it is our water. I don't know as I like this but that's just the way the ball bounces so we can't forget that there are a great amount of preference claims in Arizona. I am inclined to think that the preference users from Utah and from New Mexico and con­ ceivably from Wyoming are going to find a sub­ stantial objection to this commercial presenta­ tion because they are the ones who will have to pay for it. Somebody has to pay for the line. Another aspect of this, of course, is that we will have to do some of this building on our own, the low voltage transmission lines we were talking ·about. We will certainly hope to do our share. I don 't think I have added much to this discussion but we are working in the field and working with the Water Board. Also with the technical staff of the Public Service Company and we have all argued with the Bureau trying to get them to tell us how much of this power we will get in Colorado. We are camping on their doorstep until we find out. I thought I should bring some of these things before the Board. It is certainly a complicated problem." MR. STAPLETON: "Thank you, Howard. Mr. Moses.",·. MR. MOSES: "I think what all of these gentlemen have said, Messrs. Peterson, Sargent, and Scott, point up the one immediate, pressing problem, and Mr. Barkley' s committee's report says the same thing, and that is, that until there is a determination of what is the normal marketing area for Upper Colorado River Storage Project power, nobody knows exactly what to do. I certainly don't think this Board, this morning, has enough information to decide what overall plan should be adopted. I don't think the Board wants to move that rapidly. Perhaps it is not clear what the signifi­ cance of this designation of the normal market­ ing area is. I can give you one certain exam­ ple that will show what that is. The San Luis Valley is now getting Big Thompson power. The normal market area for Big Thompson power is the

-20- eastern slope. We have been told from the be­ ginning that whenever eastern slope demands required all of that power, we would no longer be able to get Bureau power for preference cus­ tomers in the San Luis Valley because we are not in the normal marketing area. That's the importance of a designation be­ cause any area that is served that is not in the normal marketing area, is served on a temporary basis; just as long as power is available and that's all, whereas the primary right to the power comes to the normal marketing area. It seems to me what the Board should do this morning is the adoption of a resolution as suggested by Mr. Sparks in his memorandum and by the Water Investigation Commission in it's report, requesting the Secretary to make that designation and to make it promptly. Because until that is made everybody is working in the dark." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr." Moses, what are the channels of com­ munication of this resolution?" MR. MOSES: "Well, I'm in great favor of sending reso­ lutions to everybody that I can think of. It seems to me that the resolution ought to be directed to the Secretary of the Interior and to the Upper Colorado River Commission, re­ questing the Commission to make a similar re­ quest." MR. STAPLETON: "Should it go to the individual states too or just to the Commission?" MR. MOSES: "I can't see any harm in sending it to the individual states." MR. STAPLETON: "When does the Commission meet next?" MR. SPARKS: "It will probably meet sometime in December." MR . PETERSON: "l\1r • Chairman • "

MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Peterson." MR . PETERSON: "This thought occurs to me. The Compact Commission has made a division of water volume between the states and also the revenue derived from the power projects within the basin, there­ fore I am wondering if it wouldn't be the

-21- perogative of the Compact Commission to make a division of the power between the states. I think that should be done unless there is some reason why it couldn't be done." MR. SPARKS: "Certainly the Upper Colorado River Commis­ sion can take that action, however, the power allocation as such, is not covered in the Com­ pact to which the United States is a party so I do not believe the United States would be bound by any allocation that would be made by the Commission. Nevertheless I feel they have a strong moral obligation to follow that recom­ mendation since the entire purpose of the Colo­ rado River Storage Project, as expressed in its Bill, was for the development of the upper basin states. In order to follow out that purpose , the power should be allocated to the upper basin states."

MR. PETERSON: "The Public Law 485 did not also include the right to the Compact Conunission to allocate power revenues did it? Which they did do and therefore I think they have set a precedent which could be carried out in division of power allo­ cation." MR. BARKLEY: "Mr. Chairman, I think I might give you the benefit of the thinking of the Investigation Commission and the Committee on the language contained in the letter report which we sent to you, in which it was recommended that this request be forwarded to the Secretary of the Interior but notice, in conjunction with the other states of the upper division. I think we ought to be very cautious at this point that this Board and the State of Colorado does not get its neck in a lonesome position in this thing, because ~fter all, Mr. Scott has pointed out to you here, a very important thing and that is, that the State of Arizona, through an entity in that state, has already made a request, not to the Secretary as I understand it, but to Region 4 for the designation of the State of Arizona as the primary marketing area for the project power. Immediately we run headlong into a gentle­ men by the name of Hayden, a Senator from Arizona who is Chairman of the Appropriations Committee. This Board and this state is interested in the Curecanti and in other projects and I think, when

-22- it comes to directing your resolution, it cer­ tainly would be politic that the states of the upper division do it in conjunction, one with the other; not to have ourselves singled out here on a limb for Mr. Hayden's firing squad." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr . Barkley, does that mean that our reso­ lution would not be forwarded until the other states concurred in it?" MR . BARKLEY: "I think that certainly ought to be ex­ plored, Mr. Chairman. I don ' t think there would be any disagreement . Mr. Nelson has pointed out in part, in his discussion, and Mr. Scott and Mr . Sargent, I think, would agree that probably the other states of the upper division have an equal interest with the State of Colorado in precisely the same thing - the marketing area and the allocation - but conse­ quently I personally don' t visualize any pro­ blem in the other states going along in asking the Secretary for it. All we are suggesting is that it ought to be done as a joint venture or a joint request to the Secretary rather than a singular state asking the Secretary in behalf of all the upper division . " MR. STAPLETON: "Do you have any idea as to how far the other states have progressed in consideration of this matter? If there might be a long delay we might keep that in mind. " MR • BARKLEY: "Frankly I can' t answer that, Ben . Maybe Howard or Ralph or some of those on the committee who attended this Salt Lake meeting might come closer to answering that than I can. " MR. SCOTT: "I couldn't say, Ben , but the water agencies of each of the upper basin states were repre­ sented in Salt Lake and that was where I observed the reaction of the man from the State of Arizona and personally, I would be inclined to say that something was at least pending since that time . Presently, however, we are working on this very thing, not the Secretary' s allocation for this state alone, but we have been asking for him to make tentative power allocations for all states, so we will be glad to have you go on that." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Sparks, are we now on the track of our liaison with the Bureau of Reclamation on this

-23- project so that we will not be left out of subsequent considerations?"

:MR. SPARKS : "Yes, we are, Mr. Stapleton. As far as I know the Bureau will ask us to participate in· all these various planning discussions. I might add that by our previous resolution we designated the Upper Colorado River Commission as the liaison agency for this state and for the other three upper division states to coordinate these power studies and, likewise, this proposed resolution should probably be submitted to that body first. It will probably meet either in November or December." MR . STAPLETON : "Mr. Scott." MR. SCOTT: " Larry, you spoke earlier on the funds for the transmission line construction. Arn I clear in my understanding that the budget of the Secretary of the Interior would contain a re­ quest for funds for the initiation of construc­ tion of the Bureau lines from Glen Canyon to Springville and from Springville to Flaming Gorge? Could that be transferred to some other section of line?" MR . SPARKS: "Yes. What we call preconstruction funds in any event, to purchase your right-of-ways and get final plans drawn up." MR . SCOTT: "Will these funds be supported by the Board?" MR . SPARKS: "Yes . " MR . STAPLETON: "Members of the Board - excuse me , Mr . Sar­ gent." MR. SARGENT: "I would like to suggest in regard to the recommendation made by the Water Investigation Committee, I would think the thing this Water Board ought to do today would be to pass the resolution authorizing the official representa­ tives of the state, which are Governor Johnson and the Upper Colorado River Commission, to bring this question, this proposal , before the next meeting of the Upper Colorado River Commission. I think what the import of the Investigation Com­ mission ' s report is that we feel that before any action on this is taken it ought to be taken by all the upper basin states at once rather than just Colorado ~11 alone . "

-24- MR. STAPLETON: "Thank you, Mr. Sargent. I think the Board can understand that this is a matter that we have only heard the very beginnings of. It will take a lot of technical and engineering studies and nothing can be resolved at this point except, perhaps, the suggestion of the Investigation Committee and as contained also in Mr . Sparks ' memorandum to the Board. From the questions I have heard I think I am not presumptious in asking the attorney for the Board to submit a resolution at this time that the members of the Board, if they so desire, may adopt and take that action at this meeting. I ' ve given Mr. Moses about 30 seconds to think of this but I am sure he is capable of it." MR. MILLER: "Mr, Chairman, while Ray is writing the resolution, I am compelled to make this one comment. I think the objective of this Board is water development and not power except as it is incidental to the development of water resources. I think we ought to avoid any dis­ pute between preference customers and so- called investor utilities . I am not criticizing the word 'investors' . I do think we ought to get the maximum power return for water development over a maximum period of time for the benefit of Colorado as a whole and we ought not be in­ volved in detailed disputes between public and private power interests ." MR. STAPLETON: "I would agree with you Mr. Miller, except we are going to have to make some determination over where we are going to get the most fruitful revenues for the construction of the upper basin projects and we are going to have to make that determination sometime. Mr. Peterson, did you have anything you wanted to say?" MR. PETERSON: "I didn' t want to interrupt, Mr . Chairman; but in connection with Mr . Miller' s statement, which I think is very fine, I think the concern of Colorado needs to be that when it comes down to the physical construction of these lines that they should be so constructed so that Colo­ rado can receive this power from the large proj­ ect which is Glen Canyon. Now if lines are con­ structed, and it doesn't make any difference by whom, that do not bring that power into Colorado, then there is no way that Colorado can get that power. -25- Each individual power supplier in Colo- rado cannot go·to Glen Canyon with their own line to get it; someone has to build that line into Colorado before Colorado customers can get the power from Glen Canyon. Now the question is - who is going to build that line and when is it going to be built? Are we assured it is ever going to be built?" MR. STAPLETON: "We have many collateral problems in con­ nection with that and I am sure that we are not going to dispose of any of them permanently to­ day so I will now ask Mr. Moses if he has the resolution ready which we may consider for adoption."

MR. MOSES: "If you will realize this is a 30 second resolution and I reserve the right to edit it later, it is as follows: 'BE IT RESOLVED that the Colorado Water Conservation Board urge the Upper Colorado River Commission to r equest the Secretary of Interior that the four states of the Upper Division of the Colorado River be designated as the primary market area for Colorado Ri~er Storage Project power.' I think copies of this should be sent to each of the Governors of the upper basin s tates and to all Upper Colorado River Water Commis­ sioners." MR. MILLER: "I move the adoption of the resolution." MR. £TAPLETON: "It has been moved that this resolution be adopted by Mr . Miller. Is there a second?" MR. BURR: "I'll second the motion." MR. STAPLETON: "It has been seconded by Mr. Burr." MR. McCANDLESS : "Would you read it again, Ray?" MR. MOSES: "BE IT RESOLVED that the Colorado Water Con­ servation Board urge that the Colorado River Commission request the Secretary of Interior to designate the Four Upper Basin States as the primary marketing area for Colorado River Stor­ age Project power'."

-26- MR. PETERSON: "Mr. Chairman, there is one thing that I would like to see incorporated in that resolu­ tion - we might discuss it for a moment, maybe it will not meet with the approval of the rest of the Board - but it seems to me like this allo­ cation business has not been taken care of and it seems proper, to me at least, that the Upper Colorado River Commission should make an alloca­ tion as far as the states of the upper basin in addition to the Secretary designating the mar­ keting area." MR. STAPLETON: "I would like to have some reports from the Director and the Attorney for the Board as to just what they believe the legal and engineering situation is. I'm not clear in my own mind, and I agree with you, that if they do have that power or can assume it, that we should entertain it, but I am not clear from anything that has been said today that we have a firm understand­ ing of what their rights may be in terms of allocation of the Glen Canyon power." MR. McCANDLESS: "Just who can make the allocation?" MR. MOSES: "I think there are two steps to the same problem. First is to get the upper division · states designated as the primary marketing area. I have enough confidence in our representative on the Commission that, if the Commission has the authority, we'll get our fair share. It is a question of whether or not the Commission has the final say. I think the wishes of the Commission would carry consider­ able weight, an expression of their preferences, but I also question whether we ought to put that in this resolution."

MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Barkley. II MR • BARKLEY: "Mr. Chairman, again Mr. Peterson, and particularly for clarification for the Board, or for the information of the Board, we re­ ported very, very briefly this time on the fact that your subcommittee was in the process right now of attempting to gather together this mass of material that it will take to analize and to determine what those power allocations ought to be. I merely want to say that I am quite sure that your power marketing committee would agree at this point, as would the Investigation

·- 27- Commission, that it would be premature to talk about allocations until that study has progressed further." MR. STAPLETON: "Is there any further discussion on the resolution as presented?" MR. PETERSON: "I am sorry to be taking up so much time but didn't the resolution, as you have it writ­ ten, Ray, stipulate that the Upper Colorado River Commission should request the Secretary of Interior to make the power marketing deter­ mination? Therefore the Upper Colorado River Commissioners as themselves would not enter into that discussion as to what area should be the market area. In other words, the resolution as it reads now, requests the Secretary of Interior to make that determination. Right?" MR. MOSES: "It requests him to make a specific deter­ mination that the upper divisions states are the marketing area." MR. STAPLETON: "Any further discussion? All those in favor of the resolution will signify by saying 'aye'; opposed - unanimously carried. May I thank the Investigation Commission and it's sub-committee for the work they have done so far and ask them to continue working full speed with Mr. Sparks and our staff in re­ porting something of a more concrete nature at our next meeting which will be in January. The next two matters on our agenda refer to matters which are not wholly within the province of the Water Board. I am glad that the Director of Natural Resources is here because this is an area which we all feel he can enter into with the vigor of his new position in deciding these matters. The first one is the Dinosaur National Mon­ ument legislation. That is agenda item #3 and members of the Board have a report from Larry dated October 20lh, and would you like to amplify that? I just had a communication from Mr. Sparks. The Ground Water Commission, I understand, are going to have a meeting later in the day and they would like to make a presentation and then

-28- be out of this meeting so they can conduct their own . Is that right, Mr . Cuykendall?" MR . CUYKENDALL : "Yes, sir. " MR . STAPLETON: "To refresh the memories of the members of the Board and our guests , Mr . Cuykendall, at the Grand Junction meeting on September 16th, made a proposal to this Board for the conducting of ground water studies and amplification of the Board through a rather extensive program of in­ vestigation and research. We appreciated Mr . Cuykendall appearing at that time and we asked the Director to report back to us at this meet­ ing of his studies of the problem - how we can help and aid and assist the Ground Water Com­ mission . To get this matter before the Board I will ask for a further report from Mr . Sparks at this time . " MR. SPARKS:. "As the Board will recall this resolution was presented to us in Grand Junction by the Ground Water Commission . That Commission has been working under a great handicap . Mr. Col­ burn is the only employee that the Commission has and they have practically no funds to con­ duct any type of ground water investigations. This Board, in cooperation with the United States Geological Survey, is now conducting a basic research program throughout the State of Colorado on ground water resources . Specifically, the Ground Water Commission proposed that this Board undertake some of the studies and research necessary to evolve a proper ground water code for the State of Colorado, along with related problems . We have taken that under advisement and it is obviously impossible with the limited staff of this Board to undertake any such pro­ gram. We are understaffed to accomplish the purposes for which the Board is responsible . Nevertheless the ground water problem is becoming of increasing importance. If you will recall, Mr . Crawford, the previous Director of this Board, told the people in the upper Arkansas Valley that this Board would conduct an investigation of the relationship of ground water and surface water in the upper Arkansas Valley and the lower Arkan­ sas Valley also. Such research is going to be an absolute necessity in the near future to the State of Colorado. To accomplish that research,

-29- a separate ground water division would have to be est abl i shed in the Water Conservation Board with competent ground water engineers. It is not possible for us to accomplish such a task with the few engineers and technical people that we now have . We therefore feel that it would be advis­ able to talk the matter over with the interested people in the Legislature . We have Senator Oliver here who has great detailed information concerning ground water . We have other inte r­ ested people in the Legisl ature, and we feel that we should discuss a possible program with them during this forthcoming session with a view of presenting an integr ated program at the next regular session of the Legislature. Now it is going to take a tremendous amount of work to set up this program and we can't accomplish it in l e ss than some six to eight months from now. All that I can state to the Board is that we should continue this present thinking and to coordinate with the Legislature and the Ground Water Commission t o see if the people of the State of Colorado want a ground water branch of this Board. I am not, and the staff, - we are not anxious, as you can understand, to undertake such a step. Nevertheless someone in Colorado is going to have to take it.

That ' s not a very satisfactory report I realize, but that' s all I can tell you at the present time . " MR . STAPLETON : "Before we consider it further, will you please tell us what the status of the membe rs of the staff of the Board is in regard to Civil Service. I am hoping you have something final­ ized on that . " MR . SPARKS : "Two of our engineers - our two junior engi­ neers , or rather one junior engineer and our assistant hydraulic engineer - took the written Civil Service examination yesterday. That will be followed by an or al examination sometime next month. The remaining members of the staff will take their examinations sometime during the month of November. As I previously indicated, there has been considerable interest in those positions and I

-30- think there were some eight or ten people at least, who took the examinations yesterday for the two positions that we have open. Now just yesterday we finally got our staffing pattern settled with the Civil Service Commission. For the three new positions created by this Board about a year ago, the Civil Service Commission has finally approved and established these positions - a Deputy Director for the Water Conservation Board; another senior hydraulic engineer (we now have one) which will make two senior hydraulic engineers; and one water re­ sources analyst . The Deputy Directorship is now being filled by Mr. Gildersleeve under a provi­ sional appointment and an examination must be given within eight months . The senior hydraulic engineer position is now being occupied by Mr . Morrill on a provisional basis and his examina­ tion will be given next month. Mr . Kuiper is now occupying the position of chief hydraulic engineer on a provisional basis and Mr . Stanley Miller is occupying the position of supervising hydraulic engineer on a provisional basis, both subject to examination next month . " MR. STAPLETON: "Now will you explain to the Board and our guests how your staff has been expanded in the last year and a half to meet the surface water problems and the construction of reclamation projects. " MR . SPARKS: "A year and half ago, our staff had only six engineers . It was obviously impossible to accomplish the great variety of tasks assigned to this Board with such a small staff . Through the action of this Board, and the subsequent approval by the Legislature, three additional people have been added to the staff . Actually our full staff now consists of 13 people, three of whom are administrative such as Mrs. Keating, our secretary, and the other ten are technical people. From six we have actually grown to ten, but one position was vacant a year and a half ago which was authorized and has now been filled." MR. STAPLETON: " I think it is fair to state that had it not been for the generous volunteer help of lawyers, engineers, and others interested in water, this Board could never have completed the studies on the filling of Glen Canyon. As I indicated in

-31- Grand Junction, that was one of the most signi­ ficant acts of the Board since I have been a member . That in itself could not have been done without the many, many long hours of work by volunteers in addition to all the help the staff could give them. I think what Larry was telling us was that within the realm of what we have to do within the next six or eight months , along with the problems we already have in the mill, there is no staff available under any circumstances that we could help the Gro.und Water Commission with, no matter how sympathetic we feel . Is that it, Larry?" MR. SPARKS: "That is correct . " MR. NELSON: "Mr . Chairman. " MR. STAPLETON: "Mr . Nelson . " MR. NELSON: "I would like t o ask a question. Several years ago, a very capable committee of water people in Colorado worked on this and came up with a proposal and that proposal was virtually thrown in the wastebasket. I would like to ask if it is the opinion of the various people in­ volved, if the political climate has changed enough to make any real progress on the matter now or will we still just get into an endless hassle?" MR . STAPLETON: " I would like to call on Mr. Cuykendall, Chairman of the Ground Water Commission, first to answer that and then may we get into further discussion? I know you are familiar with our manpower problems and yet you have some great r espons ibilities of your own to carry out. May­ be this would be the proper time to hear from you. If you will just step over to that micro­ phone please. " MR • CUYKENDALL : "In answer to your question, Mr . Nelson, I think it is ve ry generally understood that no­ body does anything about water until the well runs dry and the people who were working on this problem in the past saw the possibility of that dry well . It' s ve ry difficult to get across to the common user of ground water the fact that it isn' t a supply which is inexhaustible. We may point out to them areas which have gone

- 32- through that same program such as in Arizona and Texas and California but until it happens to them personally, it ' s rather hard to convince them. Now we have an area here in Denver in which some people are being convinced the well does go dry. People have bought small acreages around Denver on which ther e was an artesian we l l , a well which was to the level of Arapahoe Sands. They thought they had their own water rights ; they weren' t going to be dependent upon the City of Denver, and suddenly one day the pump begins to suck air and then the well drillers say "Yes , we 'll get you some more water, we ' ll go down about another hundr ed feet or so and it will cost you two or three hundred dollars or wha t­ ever it might be '. Those people are unhappy . There is the matter of pollution which is occurring out east of Denver . A man who put a well in, in the spr ing of 1958, has now been advised not to use the water for domestic pur­ poses, even for bathing purposes . So those people are having trouble. I think Mr . Sparks has probably gone a little further into the future than was en­ visioned by our resolution that was presented to you. What we are asking for, I believe, if you will r efer to it, was the setting up of a task committee made up of various agencies who would have enough prestige to do in the next Legislature what the Governor' s group on re­ sour ces reported should be done and that was to give some authority to the Commission in this area of critical use of water. As of today the Commission has no authority at all . Anything that they do can be immediately vetoed by a group of local people , and following our ex­ perience in the Wiggins area, that most gener­ ally is a matter of personal prejudice, personal financial interest, or something of that type which is the controlling factor, not what is happening to the water table . Fortunately for Colorado, we do not have too many areas where this matter will become critical to the point where agriculture will fail , but we do have some of them and those areas should be protected against total exploitation, if I may use that term, of the ground water re­ sources.

-33- In· one y~ar they pumped out in the Wiggins area 36 , 000 acre-feet of water and we know that it is impossible to continue that much use . It is impossible to get anything like that much r echarge from natural precipitation. In that particular case the Commission studied that area for about a year . We had the reports from the U.S. G. S .; we had reports from the economic division of Colorado State University and those things have been made public. They were avail­ able for the people down there to study and yet they refused to accept them and the action of the Commission was immediately vetoed by the local board. If I remember correctly, the recommendation of the Governor's water section, under Harold Christy, was that that part of the Act should be changed. There are some weaknesses in the engi­ neer section of the Act . The State Engineer has no authority to stop a well driller who has not taken out a license. He can do so by a rather complicated method of injunction and so forth, but as far as it' s being a misdemeanor, a man comes in from Nebraska or Kansas across the state line, particularly in the Burlington area, he doesn' t take out a license in Colorado, he' s recognized as being responsible in Colorado but he puts down a well and in a few days is across the border again. The State Engineer has no authority whatsoever to do anything about it; only by a complicated method applying to some other section of the law. I think, if you will study that resolution, what we are asking for is not a group which would be under the pay and employ of the ·v1ater Board. It would be a group of volunteers again as we have worked on it so far , to put before the Legislature their findings as to the Ground Water Act which they recommend and what it needs t o str engthen it. Now I think Mr . Sparks is right. One of these days you are going to have to investigate the other thing . In other words, there is a man who has a well where the gravel is shown to run f r om the river to his well , is he entitled to a surface right and a ground water right also? These are things which have had to be worked out in other states when they reached that stage and I am sure that Colorado will event­ ually have to face that same problem and come up with some answers . Thank you ." -34- MR . STAPLETON: "Mr. Cuykendall, I may have misunderstood you but your resolution talks about a special technical study ' task force to be created with adequate financial support. As you know, we did not contemplate, when we went to the Legislature, funds for this purpose from our Board. I t is my understanding that we would not have suffi­ cient funds to hel p you . I envisioned a substan­ tial outlay of funds for these particular special ­ ists and envisioned their acting before the special session this January. Is that pretty much what you have in mind?" MR. CUYKENDALL: "What our thinking was that this Board should go to the Joint Committee on Appropria­ tions and ask for those funds . Not particularly as part of your budget but as an addition to your budget for that specific purpose ." MR . STAPLETON : "Then you are r eally asking us if we will go to the Appropriations Committee to support , with you, a plan for financial assistance." MR . CUYKENDALL: "That ' s right ." MR . STAPLETON : " I see somebody right behind you - Senator Oli ver - who might throw some light on this as we will come to him for some help . He has been intimately acquainted with this ground wate r problem and he has been very generous to our Board in supporting us , financially and other­ wise . I ' d like to hear from you if I may , at this time, Senator Oliver." SENATOR OLIVER : " Thank ·you, Ben . I'm not thoroughly familiar with the resolution that the Ground Water Com­ mission presented to this Board but as I under­ stand it from the discussion here, they are ask­ ing for a study, a technical study, or money to be appropri ated for a t echnical study of t he ground water situation . I ' m a great believer in that. Some of the members of this Board will remember that Dave Miller and I prepared a r eso­ lution some years ago, before the present ground water law was passed, asking that a study be made, a technical study on the ground wate r sit­ uation in Colorado before any legislation was passed. This resolution was tabled and we passed a ground water bill which is completely unwork­ able .

-35- I ' m familiar with the work that the com­ mittee did in years past on preparing a ground water bill and I know for a fact that there was very little technical knowledge used in prepar­ ing the bill . All the argument on preparing the bill was on t he wording of the bill; and most of the discussion went into the surface water user versus the ground water user. The bill finally came out of that committee with priority system set up on irrigation wells, which, to my way of thinking, was absolutely wrong. I think if some others were available and some engineers were available to make a complete study of the ground water situation in all parts of Colorado, that a workable ground water code could be developed . I think there is definitely two parts . First we have ground water that is used for irrigation and in most places in this state, it is used as a supplementary irrigation. Then we have the ground water that is used for domestic purposes . Now we ' ve got the two all tied in together in one law and in my way of thinking, they shouldn' t be tied together; in my way of thinking the code which we need for the domestic supply shoul d contain rules and regula­ tions as far as the sanitary requirements - that certain sanitary r equirements - be met. Your ground water that is used for irrigation, there are certain things that should be determined and one of them, one of the important ones, is how much effect the ground water pumping has on the stream flow. I don't think there is any question but what that can be determined with some engi ­ neers and a little time and some money. If the Ground Water Commission and the State Water Conservation Board wants to ask for appr opriations to make a study on the ground water situation, I would be the first one to help you . Senator Rogers and I drafted a reso­ lution, or an appropriations bill, for the Col o­ rado State University Experiment Station for a two year study on the ground water recharge or a base for ground water recharge. I think that a lot can be done if our officials can recharge this water in places like the Wiggins area where there is nothing more than the natural recharge and I think the College Experiment Station is going to come up with some of the answers . Other s tates are doing it . California is spending a huge sum of money on ground water - the artifi­ cial recharging of ground water .

- 36- I want to repeat, that if this Water Con­ servation Board and the Ground Water Commission want to ask the Legislator for appropriations to make a technical study before they change the ground water law, I will sure give them all • the help I can. I won ' t give them any help about changing the ground water law until we know more about what we want. Thank you ." MR . STAPLETON: "Thank you, Senator Oliver. Mr . Whitten, our State Engineer, do you have anything you want to say?" MR. WHITTEN : "Mr. Chairman, I would like to make one or two comments . In kicking around what has been said here this morning r e lative to this ground water, one of the problems is the shortcomings of the present act . I can say, we find in the administration of this act , that there are de­ finitely shortcomings in the act. We have pre­ sented to the Legislature some matters for their considerations which were the main objections . We didn' t pass any of them. We have no authority, as Mr . Cuykendall pointed out, to enforce even the present act except under what you might term the general police power of the state - a long, tiresome process of an injunction action . We have even threatened that on one or two occasions but we have never carried one out yet. What I want to say here is that I agree with Mr . Oliver that the use of the ground water for pur ely domestic purposes is probably not in its proper positi on as it is tied with irriga­ tion wells and the withdrawal of water for that purpose . There are certain exemptions in the act whereby we do not charge them fees and this and that, but I do not see a particular purpose being served by including the domestic wells under that act, with the exception of perhaps getting a general catalog on how many wells there a r e overall. I would further like to point out in con­ nection with Mr. Oliver' s statement relative to sanitary considerations, that we have and are now cooper ating with the Department of Health, and with the Oil and Gas Commission, in preventing,

-37- so far as we are able to do, the pollution of potable ground water supplies . We have run headlong into that proposition, as you may we ll recall, with the drilling of deep wells i n the San Luis Valley under the present oil explora­ tion program. In that valley, which is highly dependent upon ground water for their domestic supply, the people made a demand upon our office that we do somethi ng to preclude the pollution of the potable ground water strata by those that are known to be unpotable . We immediately saw that we lacked any authority under this act to do that . We then joined together with the Department· of Health and wi t h the Gas and Oil Commission, who has quite stringent supervisory powers over gas and oil exploration, to accom­ plish what the people there wanted done. In other words, to make them set the surface cas­ ings deep enough to preclude the pollution of the upper strata, in general, to the domestic users . Those domestic wells in the San Luis Valley are generally from 125 to 300 or 400 feet deep. A few of the t01.vns, such as Alamosa, have some that go down 1500 or 1800 feet. That now has been our action and what we have had to do to get some of these things, that look comparatively simple, done . We have, I will say, excellent cooperation by the oil and gas expl oration companies . The principal one, The Tennessee Gas Transmission, was very coop­ erative . They have done everything we asked them to do and even went a little farther than that . I merely wanted to bring this up before the Board, Mr . Chairman, that we do have, at present, a working agreement . Not under this act - this act does not give us all this authority - we have to tie in with the authority of the Department of Health and the Oil and Gas Commission wherein this law should do the job, or keeping it, shall we say. We can' t do anything without a very cum­ bersome composition that requires the time of the Attorney General or his staff and it is very awkward. In regard to a study being made, I would like to ask Larry - I don't r ecall - how the studies which have been authorized and funds pro­ vided for in conjunction with the G. S ., are progressing? They a r e making those studies, I

- 38- understand, and those may be more and more of importance as time goes on . Mr. McLaughlin, I believe, stated that he would not be able to spend any more than a certain amount of money, even if he had it, because he didn't have the technical staff to accomplish this job quickly and that he would progress and proceed with all expediency with the people at his disposal. Could you give us a little bit of light on what they are doing?" MR. SPARKS: "Of course we started out with a very con­ servative program. The Board will recall, a number of years ago this Board asked for some funds to start a ground water investigation . Those funds were vetoed. Thereafter a small start was made to initiate this basic program. We started out with $25,000, then $50,000 and we are now up to $75,000. The U.S. G. S. staff has been gradually increased to meet increased appropriations. This year our appropriation is $75,000. The United States government will put in a like amount so we are spending $150,000 this year on basic research. Now that program, before you can come up with any answers - Senator Oliver has already stated why this previous committee on ground water was not successful - you have to first know the exact nature, as near as you can de­ termine, of the product or the commodity that you~re dealing with. Ground water is an extremely complicated proposition so you have to know its nature. When you get legislation through of any kind, you have to have a case prepared and the only way you can prepare a case is to be thor­ oughly grounded in the fundamentals. That's what we are now attempting to do. We are at­ tempting to determine what the ground water re­ sources of Colorado are and what is the nature of these ground water resources. That is our basic program.

On top of that, we will have to start analyz­ ing what should be done to handle these resources now that we understand something about their quality and nature. The only agency in the State of Colorado which has done extensive work along this line and has gone somewhat beyond this basic research program is the Colorado State University.

-39- I jumped to the conclusion immediately, when I read this resolution the Ground Water Commission presented, that before this program could be carried out, you must have a technical staff that will stand behind the committee recom­ mendations. Or vice versa, the committee cannot make any intelligent recommendations until it has concrete recommendations from a working tech­ nical staff. So what I considered immediately was that a working technical staff was necessary. The staff would coordinate with the U.S. G. S. and Colorado State University to finally evolve a program which they could substantiate, as near as engineering facts can be substantiated in this field, to present then to a policy making committee such as was contemplated by the Ground Water Commission. That policy making committee, then forti­ fied with all the basic knowledge that we could obtain, would appear before the Legislature and say, 'This is what we want done and this is why. We are prepared to substantiate these recommend­ ations with the best research that could be car­ ried out'; and I think that that is exactly what Senator Oliver had in mind. I think that is the only type of program that we can sell to the Legislature, and I will agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Cuykendall and the Ground Water Commis­ sion that that is a necessity in the State of Colorado and should have been started a good many years ago . Personally, from that point of view, the staff of this Board is prepared to make specific recommendations to the Legislature. We would prefer that the State Engineer's office have this technical staff. We are very pleased with the fact now that when we get inquiries about ground water, we say 'Go see the State Engineer, he has the ground water staff'. One engineer is all he has." MR. STAPLETON: "Gentlemen, we have a resolution, Mr. Cuyken­ dall's, in front of us. What is your pleasure?" MR. MILLER: "Mr. Chairman, this is a subject that we could all spend a lot of time on, profitably to the State of Colorado and to ourselves. How­ ever, I do think we ought t o recognize that there are people in this room who have worked diligently in addition to the tremendous amount of work Mr. Cuykendall has done; Sam Chutkow of

-40- board is here and I see in the room Mr . Bittinger who, I think, sent to all of you, along with my­ self, copy of the report which he made . I got a lot out of it; it was down to where I could read it and understand parts of it . I think those two fellows ought to be recognized for their comments on this problem. I know the lunch hour is approaching but I don' t know whether they can come back or not. " MR. STAPLETON: "Woul d either of you two gentlemen like to speak on this matter? Mr. Chutkow." MR . CHUTKOW : "Gentlemen, this matter has come to me in the last three or four years more or less, and I was one of the fellows who hadn't paid much attention to ground water, but what I have learned about it in the past few years has left me with the impression that that' s a problem that Colorado must solve some time or the other. Mr. Cuykendall presented to this Board, at Grand Junction I believe it was, a resolu­ tion that the Commission adopted, feeling that something should be done to give the ground water problem an impetus or solution of some sort in this state . We know, for example, that Texas and California are spending, not millions, but billions of dollars on the thing and just what Colorado should do is the thing that Colo­ rado must look into. It has got to the point, frankly, where various members of the Commission have contemplated, because of the fact they don' t have the authority to go into these pro­ blems, of actually resigning and saying ' Let's drop off the Commission - what ' s the good of it?'. The only thing we have in Colorado be­ sides the fact there is a Commission is that Colorado recognizes there is a ground water problem. We must go into the problem and I feel that a united effort by all interested agencies to indicate to the Legislature something should be ' done about the ground water problem, should be initiated and I think that is the purpose of this resolution, just as Mr . Cuykendall expressed it, to present to the Legislature the fact that we will look into the ground water problem and not recognize it merely by saying ' Well, you have a Commission'. What good is the appointment

-41- of a Commission who has no authority, no power, no direction at all? The only thing the Com­ mission can do now is have their meetings and talk about the problem but that doesn't accom­ plish anything. We want the Legislature to realize that this is a problem that Colorado has to face as the other western states a re doing. So the purpose of this resolution is to try and get all the interested agencies, probably the State Director of Natural Resources could do this , to tell the Legislature that something should be done about the ground water problem and not just appoint a commission saying 'Look what good boys we are, we have appointed a commission ' . That isn't the answer. The answer must be something that should be done that the Legislature ought to investigate and pass the necessary act, after such investigation, to give the body it wants to designate the proper authority to go into it. Thank you ." MR. STAPLETON: "Thank you, Mr . Chutkow. Representative Kendrick." REP. KENDRICK: "Gentlemen, I think the ground water situa­ tion is one of the most serious and one of the most complicated problems before the Legislature. Before anything can be done, a definite, hard study will have to be made and consideration given between that water of the surface and the lower water. It looks like it is almost impossi­ ble to make a law, a flat law, that is workable to everything. The conditions are so extreme between the headwaters and farther down that it looks like it will almost need to be a flexible law that will work in one area in one way and in another area not quite so strict. I think a definite, thorough study that will take a long time is needed in getting the true answer." MR. STAPLETON: "Thank you, Representative Kendrick. I know the Ground Water Commission wants to meet . Mr. Moses has a resolution that I think may fit in with what you want, Mr. Cuykendall. I'll ask him to read it and then see if the Board will entertain it favorably."

-42- MR. MOSES: " BE IT RESOLVED that the staff of the Colo­ rado Water Conservation Board cooperate with the Ground Water Conunission in seeking funds from the Legislature for the study of ground water resources by Colorado State University, together with the Law School of the Colorado University, utilizing all existing available information f r om state and federal agencies , all to the end that practical, workable legislation may be en­ acted." MR . STAPLETON: " Is that something along what you desire, Mr. Cuykendall?" MR . CUYKENDALL: "Well , you know what they say about small gifts thankfully received and larger ones in proportion . He ' ll be thankful for any kind of a gift. May I say this about the matter of continued investigation. 1'fe need it, we ' ve got to have it, but I ' m afraid there are some places where, when you get through investigating, you'll find what you investigated has disappeaTed. I believe that the ground water act as it is now only g ives to the Conunission the authority to check the use of ground water in an area which is becoming critical . Of course we do have this matter of the obscureness and the , oh, it is just something that is very visionary - what ' s ground water? Well, it is something from the ground; we can' t see it. But these men who work with ground water will tell you that is not all the facts . They have methods now whereby they can tell you which way the water is going, they can tell about how much the speed is, and they can tell you about how much the content of a ground water basin may be, by a study of what it' s makeup is in that area - in the way of gravels , clays, etc. So as I say, we are very thankful , Mr . Moses , for your resolution and maybe we will be able to get it before the Legislature, but I want to impress again, when we get the investi­ gating all done in the State of Colorado, we are going to find that we ' re going to have maybe fifteen, maybe twenty, maybe ten different, en­ tirely different, situations . In other words , the situation in the Closed Basin in the San Luis Valley is not in any form or manner comparable with the basin on the Bijou-Kiowa . If you are

-43- going to start out to write a detailed law to take care of each of these situations, somebody is going to be awful smart . Thank you ." MR. STAPLETON: "Thank you, Mr . Cuykendall. Is there a motion to adopt Mr . Moses ' r eso­ lution?"

MR. MI LLER: " Mr . Chairman." MR. STAPLETON : "Mr. Miller." MR . MILLER : "I think Ray has done a good job in the sug­ gested resolution but in the interests of coop­ e r ation, I would rather move the resolution which appears on page 49 of the minutes of the last meeting, which would simply be that we join with the Ground Water Commission in r ecommending to the General Assembly, the three points con­ tained in Mr . Cuykendall ' s resolution. " (See Appendix A for complete resolution) . MR . STAPLETON : " You have heard the motion . Is there a second to it?" MR . W. M. WILL I AMS: "Seconded." MR. STAPLETON: " It has been seconded by Mr . Williams . Is there any further discussion? Al l in favor of the resolution wi ll signify by saying ' aye'; opposed - adopted unanimously. Now I think you got a little more than what you had before, Mr. Cuykendall . I ' m not sure what you have now . It ' s been the usual custom of the Board to have lunch together, but we are not going to have that meeting today because many of you have people from outside and I think in view of the Reclamation conventi on, we will dispense with that and we ' ll meet back here promptl y at 1:30 . The meeting is recessed until that time." The meeting reconvened at 1:30 P . M. MR . STAPLETON : "Gentlemen, let' s go to the next item on the agenda, item #3 , Dinosaur National Monument

- 44- legislation. As you know, bills are pending in both houses of the Congress seeking to change the area to a national park. Congressman Aspin­ all has introduced a bill retaining the national monument status but appropriating money for the access roads. Now the Upper Colorado River Com­ mission met in Utah and asked us to take a posi­ tion on this matter and Commissioner Johnson has asked for our views on it. I think the only way we can handle this at this time, is to appoint a committee to investi­ gate the matter and report back to the Board at the next meeting. I am going to ask Ted McCand­ less to be Chairman of that committee; and Bill Nelson and John Barnard, Jr. to serve with Ted. Now you can get some help from the staff and from some contract work that we still have some appro­ priations for. We would like the committee to come back to the January meeting with some speci­ fic recommendations as to what should be done . For the Director of the new Natural Resources , I think you will be interested in what we recom­ mend as to the water aspects of the monument and we will be working with you as soon as our com­ mittee reports ." DR. CLARK : " I surely will, thank you ." MR . STAPLETON : "Is there any further comment or discussion, Ted, you want to make on this project at this time?" MR. McCANDLESS : "No . I have had some literature on it and some letters but I would r ather wait and get the full committee' s recommendations and then r eport on it." MR. STAPLETON: "All right, I think that will take care of agenda item #3 . The next item is an interesting one and one that has gathered, as you know, some publicity in the papers, namely, the permanent pool in the John Martin Reservoir. This again has aspects other than water conservation. Larry has gotten some good material up that you have received. I think, to start it off , Larry, if you will comment on it and we 'll go from there."

-45- MR. SPARKS: "Gentlemen, we are all acquainted with the problem that occurred at John Martin Reservoir •. Actually the staff of this Board has been working on the problem for some eight or ten months now. As you know, I am one of the Colorado commission­ ers on the Arkansas River Compact. This is a thorny problem and one common to any area where the available water supply, surface water sup­ ply, is already over-appropriated. It is obvious that we can do nothing to jeopardize the rights which have accrued to irrigators under the terms of the Arkansas River Compact. The only possible solution is for the State of Colorado, the specific agency would be the Colorado Game and Fish Commission, to purchase the necessary water rights and establish this permanent pool. But before this pool can be established, the Corps of Engineers has stated that they cannot give it any consideration until they are authorized by Congress to invade the flood control pool for the purpose of maintain­ ing a permanent pool. In other words, there is space in John·Martin Reservoir for such purposes but the Corps, when they presented their plan to Congress back in the late 30's, indicated that everything above the elevation of 3851 feet, mean sea level, was reserved for flood control purposes. The Corps is willing, however, to recommend to Congress that they be allowed to invade that space if the State of Colorado will make available the~ecessary water rights. Based upon that general principle, I drafted some legislation which I thought generally would accomplish the purpose. This l egislation has been sent out to all interested agencies in the Arkansas Valley and in the State of Kansas for their review and comment. I have had several meetings down in the Arkansas Valley on the sub­ ject and will attend a good many more. At thi s time there seems to be no general opposition to a permanent pool in John Martin Reservoir if specific details can be worked out which will not infringe upon the vested water rights in the valley. Of course, that's the only purpose of attempting such a plan in the first instance. The situation is now that most of the ditch companies, ditch boards and associations,

-46- have met or will meet to make specific recom­ mendations on the subject . I don't .know at this time if there is any particular action this Board can take until the matter is further resolved by conferences in the Arkansas Valley." MR. CONOUR: "Mr. Spar ks, as a matter of interest, in respect to sub-paragraph 'e', where will the water rights that will be necessary for the establishment of this permanent pool come from?" MR. SPARKS: "The water rights will be purchased from existing decrees. As you know, water is a marketable commodity and you can purchase almost any water right in the state if you want to pay enough for it. Already we have been approached by several prospective vendors in the Arkansas Valley who have indicated that they have water rights for sale. Now the price is quite high and each water right must be evaluated by our engineering staff to determine it's suitability for this purpose. In other words, it is a long, involved calculation to go into to determine whether or not that water right would be suffi­ cient. It will take many months to evaluate any particular water right. The water right has to be changed in it's location, and it's purpose and' it would mean changed str eam conditions. There is no question but what the water can be purchased if the Game and Fish Department wants to pay the price asked for it. The price that's paid for it is no particular concern of ours be­ cause we aren't in that business anyway, so all we hope to do is tell the Game and Fish Depart­ ment 'Here is a water right which is sufficient. From here on this is your problem'." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Miller." MR. MILLER: "I was going to ask, there is a resolution here from the Fort Lyon Canal Company - did the Amity Canal Company take any action?" MR. SPARKS: "We have received nothing from them." MR. McCANDLESS: "The conservancy district did." MR. STAPLETON: "Frank."

-47- MR • MILENSKI ; "I think this is basically a problem for the Arkansas Valley and this is the first time that it has been approached from the idea of buying the water, which makes sense. Our district down there is very much interested in the operational problems and interested in this problem and I'd like to ask Mr. Beise to give you the ideas of our district on this." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Charles Beise." MR. BEISE: "Mr. Chairman and members of the Board, this permanent pool is primarily a problem which con­ cerns the Arkansas Valley, which has existed for at least a dozen years. The problem merits at­ tention and solution. The district, of which· Frank is a member and for which I am attorney, represents all of that area of the Arkansas Valley above John Martin Reservoir and does not represent the area about which Dave just asked, the Amity, or the area below the reservoir. We are appreciative of the fact the Board is giving this attention and Mr. Sparks' personal efforts and interest in the matter. We haven't had a long time to study either the Army or the Sparks' bill, but our Board has met and they have asked me to say to you that if a recreational pool can be established without injury to the irrigators, then the district favors the creation of a recreation pool. My comments, and I'll make them as brief as I can because you men here are donating your time to this public service and I appreciate the personal sacrifice you make and I am going to cut my remarks very short, are that there are too many unknowns at the present time for the dis­ trict to approve the bill in its present form. The Arkansas Compact between Kansas and Colorado relates to John Martin primarily and it relates to an elevation in that reservoir of 3851 feet. Also the Federal Act which created John Martin Reservoir made it possible for the Compact to utilize that 3851 feet because any space in the reservoir above 3851 is treated as flood control and used for flood control purposes and any time the water gets above that it spills. By the terms of the Compact, any time the water gets below 3851 then either Kansas or Colorado, or both, can call on those waters for irrigation purposes. Now that's the framework under which we try to work.

-48- The district, so far, has the same objec­ tion to what I would call the Sparks' bill as it has to the Army bill, in that the Army drafted a bill which simply said they would add one foot to the heighth of the conservation pool, or the pool of irrigation water below 3851, by changing the elevation to 3852, and Mr. Sparks, I think quite properly, wrote Congressman Chenoweth a letter and the essence of Larry's comments were in those one or two sentences to the effect that the conservation pool was defined by the Compact - that portion of the total space of John Martin Reservoir lying below the flood control storage. Throughout the Compact the term ' conservation pool' is used to denote the amount of water available to irrigators. Now Larry solved the problem - he simply said we'll take as much space as need be from the flood control area to create this recreation pool but we won't make it a part of the conservation pool because if you do then Kansas can call it down. I As we see both bills, the Compact makes no recognition of where the water originates. In other words, if you did buy water and put it in above an elevation of 3851, the minute that water drops below that line it becomes part of the conservation pool under t4e Compact and, this is an objection from the Fish and Game point of view as I see it, the Kansas irrigator could call on that water for delivery under the Compact. We are interested in solving the problem, and we say that sincerely, but we doubt that this bill will because, even if the Compact Commission should adopt a rule and regulation to preserve the identity of the water involved, nevertheless it could be argued by some irrigators that the rule and regulation was inconsistent with the Compact, therefore void and therefore the whole thing would fail in and of itself. On that basic philosophy we have got to have, I think, the opinion of the Attorney General. We want to work with the Board but if I am right on my ap­ proach to that under the Compact, there is noth­ ing less than an amendment of the Compact proba­ bly that would give a permanent solution. If. I am wrong, · then I think it's possible, maybe by amendment, to get to some other substitute that might deal with the problem. I think the second round, Mr. Chairman, for

-49- adve~s~ coIYUJlent on th~ bill is that to avoid any 1nJury to the irrigators, the water must be purchased as Larry said, and also the land re­ tired from which that water is purchased. Be­ cause otherwise, if both the water is not pur­ chased and the land retired, this 10,000 acre­ foot burden would simply be transferred to the irrigators upstream from John Martin. Go to the Fryingpan-Arkansas Project. The Fryingpan pro­ poses the Pueblo Reservoir which would only im­ pound the waters that would spill above 3851. Now if we make it possible for the Army in any way to shift that burden, it will be fair the Fryingpan serves some impoundment at Pueblo Reservoir. We think the bill can be amended to cover this type of objection but it would require an amendment. The third major point is simply that as a matter of administration, due to the peculiar situation from John Martin downstream you have a vacuum in which neither the State Engineer, with all due respect to Jean, nor the Army, from that point on down, the irrigators that live in the area feel that it is not properly administered. Many times, if we had a situation where there was only 10,000 acre-feet of water in John Martin Res­ ervoir, the administration would have had to be much more efficient and effective than it has been in the past. We realize that other Colorado statutes would be necessitated by the Sparks ' bill. The Fish and Game doesn't have the power of condem­ nation. You can't sue the state nor collect a judgment from the state without authority from the Legislature to do so, a la Georgetown Fish and ·Game Reservoir. So, this bill, while I real­ ize it is the first step, nevertheless it calls for companion state legislation and I go back to the very basic thing - that we must be right on a legal philosophy, i.e., can we, by amending · the bill which related to John Martin Reservoir, effect and do what the people of the area want to do, or do we have to have a change in the Com­ pact? We feel , and lastly, that the project is not one which can be attacked piecemal. This isn't something that developed in a year. It's been coming on for many years. It's happened before.

-50- We don't want it to happen again but we don't want to rush into something either Fish and . Game wise, or farmer wise, or city wise, which will not be a good solution. So we feel, the district feels, that we would like to see a package proposed, if Larry feels in all fairness that he can, in which not only the bill, the rules and regulations, but the area from which the water would be purchased be, not specifically, but in general terms, a method of administration, could be wrapped up and submitted to the public because I know, and the people in our area know, that you can't get a federal bill through if you are going to have opposition from some of the people of Colorado. No matter what our plan is, we are going to have some opposition on this but by trying to educate the public as much as possi­ ble in advance, then I think we can all get be­ hind the Board and maybe get something done. But I do think that it has got to be approached more as a unit than as just amending a federal bill. The people in the area have specific ques­ tions which they want to know more about. We realize Larry can't tell us that he is going to buy Jim Jones' right and pay for it with so much money, and we're not interested in that, but we do want to know how it is going to work. So, Mr. Chairman, we ask that the districts be considered by the Board. We 'd like to study with your Director. We want to help you; we are sympathetic, but we don't feel the answer is what has, as yet, been proposed. Thank you ." MR. STAPLETON: "Thank you, Mr. Beise. I think that was, largely, a little argument. Ray, do you have some comments you would like to make at this time?" MR. MOSES: "Going into this problem, I wrote one opinion sometime back, in which I said, in essence, that the pool could be established provided that water rights were acquired to fill the initial pool and to provide for evaporation losses. In addi­ tion to the initial pool, that there should be no burden on district water rights to cover the evap­ oration on this 10,000 acre-feet . There should be a source of water to cover that evaporation and I think that's what, probably, the Fish and Game contemplated - that whatever water rights

-51- they would buy would not only be adequate to supply the initial feet but also furnish any evaporation losses - then provided proper steps were taken under Colorado law and under the Com­ pact, to change the point of diversion and the type of use of the water rights. The next thing considered was whether or not, and this does not form an opinion yet be­ cause I can't say about the Attorney General, but I think, from my present thinking, that this can be done without the necessity of an amendment to the Compact, provided it is taken from the flood control pool rather than the con­ servation pool. My reason for that is the language of the Compact itself, which says 'the bottom of the flood control storage is presently fixed by the Chief of Engineers at elevation 3851'. You find, if you look at the intent of the people who framed the Compact, it is my thinking, that if the bottom of the flood control pool had been permanently fixed at 3851, and not some figure any higher than that, they wouldn't have used the language 'the bottom of the flood control stor­ age is presently fixed by the Chief of Engineers' at a certain point, at such and such feet deep, . but the Chief of Engineers would have the author­ ity to fix the bottom of the flood control stor­ age at some elevation higher than 3851, not lower, but higher. The reason I say not lower is it definitely says that all water below that point is for conservation use . Actually I don' t think the Chief of Engineers is about to change that without Congressional authority but , in my mind, he could if he wanted to take that r esponsibility - say the bottom of the flood control storage is some place higher than 3851 without receiving Congressional auth­ ority. Of course I think it is much wiser to · get Congressional authority. Now, as I stated, my present feeling is that it can be done without an amendment to the Compact. The question of what happens to that 10,000 acre-feet after the level goes below 3851 is a real good puzzle but I think the Compact Adminis­ tration by r egulation can reserve that 10,000 acre-feet which was a part of the conservation pool to begin with and with proper adjustment for evaporation losses, and not before, to hold that inviolate as against the call on the people

-52- below the reservoir or the people in Kansas, for conservation purposes. It is water which, in the absence of this legislation, or in the absence of the act of the Chief of Engineers, would have spilled and been unavailable to the irrigators. It may be the irrigators will pro­ bably act, if they want to, although I've learned in water matters you can't always anticipate what claims the irrigators may raise. As to the possible effect on the Fryingpan, frankly I hadn't considered that. It seems to me, however, if those rights were rights which were used where developments were ordinarily diverted· below Pueblo Reservoir, on the filed on lands, those rights were purchased and I assume that with the purchase the lands are retired. It has been my experience with water rights that have been obtained for this type of purpose that the lands are retired. Then there is no additional burden on the upper reservoir of the Fryingpan-Arkansas because enough water would have to pass Pueblo Reservoir for the owner of the earlier water right for irrigation purposes. The fact that it goes on down to the Arkansas Valley actually is better, I would say offhand. But, as I say, I have not considered that. Now as far as the administration, I have no comment to make about that except that it seems to me in conjunction with this bill, that I don't think this bill is going to pass. Obviously as has been suggested, they'll say 'When you two get together and give your solution to us, why then we'll adopt it'. So I would anticipate the problem being worked out with this Arkansas Ad­ ministration. Probably we 6 ll have 10,000 acre­ feet in the flood control reservoir, so as far as that part of the act is concerned I think that's about to become just as long a process before the legislation, or the act, is official ." MR. NELSON: "Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question. Is it an assumption that the Game and Fish De­ partment is willing to buy the water rights or are they planning to do it and are willing to do it? I have been wondering about that in all this discussion." MR. STAPLETON: "There is a representative from the Fish and Game here. Maybe he would like to comment on this."

-53- MR . MOORE: "I know very definitely that we have al­ ready discussed the purchase of the water rights concerning this creating a permanent pool there. It has only gone into the discus­ sion period, nothing very definite, but it has gone this far." MR . NELSON: "I had in mind the fact that you might have closed the purchase and wanted to just get them as - just to keep in mind while this legislation was straightened out." MR . MOORE: "No, I doubt if we would do anything like that." MR . SPARKS: "I have had several conversations with the Director of the Game and Fish Department , Mr . Kimball, on this subject. Mr. Kimball asked our staff to work out a feasible engineering plan and a complete evaluation of any potential water rights, together with any r ecommendations that we have . Definitely it is now a contempla­ tion of the Game and Fish Department that they will purchase these water rights if it can be done within their economical limits . They have limits beyond which they cannot go also. So it's a question of having the money again, as far as they are concerned. But there is no question, I think, that the Game and Fish De­ partment is prepared to enter into negotiations for the purchase of these water rights, assuming that our engineeri ng staff indicates that that particular water right is sufficient for the purpose." MR . STAPLETON: " Any additional comments?" MR . MILENSKI : " I do feel that the irrigators down in the valley have come under a lot of criticism and publicity about killing the fish and one thing and another. They were only operating under the Compact and when you stop and realize that with one watering on a crop of sugar beets in Septem­ ber which is the proper time, you can probably get close to five ton· per acre by the fact that you did have the water for them and can use it, it is quite a thing for the farmers to look at. By the fact there is water in John Martin every decree above John Martin is helped by the fact they don't have to pass any water to any senior decrees below.

-54- There was an awful lot of publicity that did come out that was very hard on the farmers that did use the water but I presume other peo­ ple with their business in the same circumstances, operating under the same set of rules, would pro­ bably have done the same thing. It's been un­ fortunate that the rains didn't come any quicker but there was only, perhaps, 15,000 inflow in John Martin this summer . That was unfortunate from the standpoint of a permanent pool. Also for the guys in agriculture. It was just one of these years when there just wasn't any rain and I think we need a little indulgence on the fact that if it doesn'·t rain, why everybody suffers a little bit from it." MR.· STAPLETON: "Are there any additional comments? It would seem to me that perhaps the matter could best be handled at this time by a motion to table it, and at the suggestion of the Southeastern District, they get together with the Director and the attorney and try and come up with some solu­ tion ·that we can all agree upon at the next meet­ ing." MR. WHITTEN: "Mr. Chairman, I'd like to suggest in con­ nection with your recommendation that the matter of the administration of this permanent pool, the water rights acquired to support it, etc., be given pretty careful consideration, particularly from the viewpoint of the State Engineer' s office which, in all probability, will be saddled with the proposition of administration. That's almost a certainty. So if you get down to the adminis­ tration which just briefly was touched on here, there are problems there which I feel, when we get down to the point where we think we ar.e._about ready to do something at that angle, should be pretty thoroughly and carefully examined, so that when we put such a plan up to the people, we feel that it is sound, not only on an economical basis, but capable of being carried out. We have, as you may know, and this is with all regard to my various friends, we often get decrees out in the state that are written in such a fashion they are almost impossible to administrate. For that reason I make this com­ ment . Is this in accord with your opinion that this should be probably held up until the South-

-55- eastern District and the people in t he Arkansas Valley have had ample time to examine it, and the Game and Fish, if they are going to be the purchaser, have had ample opportunity to examine it? Until the Board has ample t i me to t hink it over further, that our Department has had ample opportunity to examine it?" MR . STAPLETON: "Would you care to make a motion to that effect?" MR . WHITTEN : " I will make a motion to that effect in general, that it be tabled for further consid­ eration." MR. STAPLETON: "Any second to that?" MR. BURR : "I' ll second it. " MR . STAPLETON: "Any further discussion?" MR. SPARKS : "I' m not sure what is being tabl ed, Mr. Chairman, since there is nothing really before the Board in the form of a motion . I don' t think anything in the agenda indicated there was any action by the Board to be taken at this time . I ' m not sure - this motion to table - I ' m not sure what is being tabled." MR . WHITTEN : " I ' ll change my motion to correct it to the effect that consideration of this matter be postponed. " MR . STAPLETON: "Will that be satisfactory to the second?" MR. BURR: "That will be satisfactory." MR . STAPLETON: "Any further discussion? All those in favor will signify by saying ' aye' ; opposed so ordered. I Mr. Barnard, Jr. , in your absence you were appointed to a committee . Mr . McCandless is Chairman of a committee to investigate and re­ port back to this Board at the January meeting on the Dinosaur National Monument problem." MR . BARNARD, JR . : "Who is the Chairman?" MR . STAPLETON: "Mr . McCandless. The next item on the agenda is the U.S.

-56- Navy'Department's request for reservation for water for their shale oil development. I think I can summarize that briefly in that in connec­ tion with the recommendations on the Ruedi Dam and Reservoir, the Department of the Navy was asked to comment and that brought up the question of certain reserves of water for their shale oil development plans . They sent a Commander out to discuss the matter with our Director and I think the answer is that we are going to investigate it and calculate what reserves would be necessary. I don't think there is any action that can be taken at this time . The Director is in the pro­ cess of cooperating in this regard and the re­ port will be out in due time in connection with the Navy's request . Bill, you may know something - would you like to comment on this?" MR. NELSON: "The only comment I would have, Mr. Chairman, is that I have been at a number of meetings where this matter was discussed but there was never any satisfactory method proposed for reservations for water for shale except getting conditional decrees in the courts. The Colorado River Dis­ trict has been wo rking on that. That's the only method I know of that they can be reserved, con­ sidering all angles. I think that this Board can perhaps render assistance to the Colorado River Water District in that matter, in getting the best solution to the problem." MR . SPARKS: "May I point out , Mr . Stapleton, that Com­ mander Miller who was here from the Department of the Navy, also consulted with the Colorado River District. Now I think there is a particu­ lar significance in this visit . If you will recall, the Hawthorne Case in Nevada arose be­ cause the Department of the Navy took water and said to the State of Nevada, 'You have no control over it'. The significance of this action by the Navy to me is, here is the Navy, coming to Colorado and they say 'Will you, under the framework of your state law, reserve some water .for us'. I think that's a tremendous change in the Navy's attitude and it's extremely import­ ant to the state water rights theory and the fed­ eral water rights theory that we are having so much difficulty about at the present time. I am sure that Mr. Smith and Mr. Barnard

-57- over in the River District are delighted that the Navy chose to consult them in this manner. I think that we in turn should give great con­ sideration to this request. Not only consid­ eration but give them a very definite answer. This situation has many advantages to us by working out a solution. In the first in­ stance the Navy must pass upon all these proj­ ects in western Colorado and actually report to the Congress on their attitude. We want their favorable attitude. Secondly, it may give us an opportunity to get nonreimbursable funds for some project in western Colorado which otherwise might not meet a favorable benefit cost-ratio. Thirdly, the amount of water involved, from the preliminary studies we have done, is very, very small, because they are asking only for water to actually operate the industry, not for municipal or other purposes . As you have perhaps noted from the shale oil report, the amount of water involved in the actual proce ssing of shale oil is very minor . The major part of the water is used for municipal and allied industrial pur­ poses. So certainly, the staff of the Board, and I know the Colorado River District likewise, will give thorough attention to this problem and we will prepare specific recommendations for this Board and for the Colorado River Board, and hope that we can tell the Navy 'Ye s. Here is a certain amount of water that we have reserved for the future development of shale oil re­ serves'." MR. BARNARD, SR . : "Mr. Chairman . " MR. STAPLETON : "Mr . Barnard." MR. BARNARD, SR .: "I might elaborate on what Mr. Sparks has said. Something occurred, Mr . Sparks, since your interview with Lieutenant- Commander Miller. Mr. Smith and I met with him the day after that interview and at that meeting he did discuss, rather pointedly and seriously, the question not only of water to be used in the processing but also for industrial and municipal purposes. Fol­ lowing that visit there has been an interchange of correspondence between our office and Captain Miller, who is the head of that department . As a result of that interchange of correspondence, Mr . Smith and I have an appointment to meet with,

-58- as I understand it and as I recall the correspon­ dence, Captain Miller, Lieutenant-Commander Miller and a man by the name of Captain Young­ blood. As I understand it, he is one of their chief hydraulic engineers or something like that in Washington. That meeting will occur sometime during the middle of the month. Following that meeting I intended to talk with you, Larry, about this being unified. After that meeting perhaps something a little more de­ finite can be reported to the Board."

MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Peterson." MR. PETERSON: "Mr. Chairman, I'm a little bit concerned here. The gentleman of the Navy seems to be getting demoted fast . He started out by being a Commander, then a Lieutenant-Commander and now he's going to be a Captain." MR. SPARKS: "There are two different Millers - no rela­ tion." MR. STAPLETON: "Besides that, the ways of t he Navy are mysterious also. I think that all we can do is report this situation as it develops - Larry and John will give us a report on it. It seems to me at least an obvious sign that they are asking before they take, or attempt to take . I am sure the Director will report t o us further as subsequent develop­ ments occur." MR. BARNARD, JR.: "I am in complete sympathy with the idea but there is a question, and it's just from the standpoint of information, are you thinking in terms of reserving capacity in some water proj­ ect? I don ' t understand how you can reserve water under the appropriation doctrine in Colo­ rado." MR. SPARKS: "There are many ways , John, that that can be accomplished. We have some water available for that purpose at the present time. There are various ways. We have done some preliminary thinking on this. For instance , let's assume we build a project, such as the Ruedi , or \"lest Divide, or some other project which has some storage capa­ city. We can say ' All right, if you pay some of the cost of this project, a nonreirnbursable

-59- portion of the project, at some future date some 10,000 or 15,000 feet of that water will be made available to you upon your demand. In the in­ terim period this water will be used for any purpose that we want to put it to'. We would utilize the water in the interim period and they would pay for it. It's a very definite possi­ bility that the Navy might do that." MR. BARNARD, JR.: "A very pleasing one too." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Eakes." MR. EAKES: "What projects does the Navy pass upon - al 1 of them?" MR. SPARKS: "They pass on all of them. Every federal department gets a crack at all these projects; Army, Navy, Agriculture." MR. EAKES: "Are they planning a fleet up in the moun- tains?" MR. SPARKS: "It's been the policy of the United States for many years to set aside and transfer juris­ diction of federal lands to the Department of the Navy. The Teapot Dome, you may recall, was Naval land, and the Navy has large oil reserves set aside for the future - of course we may not have battleships in the future." MR. STAPLETON: "We will pass on now to agenda item //6 - Senate Select Committee on National Water Re­ sources. They have scheduled a hearing here in Colorado. As you know, we had some diffi­ culty in getting one. Neither one of our Senators is a member of the Select Committee. I hope you all notice you may come to hear them. Maybe they will discuss the question we are all most interested in, namely, federal vs. state rights, although I guess that is too hot a potato for them to handle. I read the Director's re­ port on the agenda item and I wasn't at all sure what they were going to do. So if you can give us an idea of what you are preparing for their agenda of the Colorado meeting and if you can enlighten me as ·to what they are after, I'll appreciate it, Larry." MR. SPARKS: "We 're not sure either. But sometime ago, regardless of whether or not this committee came here, we had been asked to submit a rather

-60- comprehensive statement to the committee. Our staff , sometime ago, started working on this statement. Now that involved a great amount of r esearch work . The committee asked us to submit a statement on behalf of Colorado list­ ing by project all potential water resource projects in Colorado, from the period of 1954 to the period of 1980. The location of t he projects; to identify them on the map; to classify them for use according to flood con­ t r ol, hydro-electric or whatever they may be; to estimate the cost of project; to estimate the critical yield of reservoir storage; the maximum yield; price per acre foot for maxi- mum and critical yield; new lands involved; supplemental lands involved, and that includes soil conservation, fish and wildlife, municipal, and every possible water use category. Now as you can see, that is normally a task ·which would take at least a year's time if we had thr ee or four engineers to put on it full time. We have tried to accomplish that in a period of about sixty days and we have it fairly well completed. The results are amazing. Our studies show over a billion dollars in project costs . We ' ve taken all the pl ans that have been made in the State Engineer' s office and evalu­ ated those and a ll the private projects. We have written to every municipality in the State of Colorado and gone to every federal agency to compi l e this information . We will have that ready for the committee . It won ' t be, of course, r ead, as it would take us four hours to go through it but we will give it to the commi t tee in condensed form . We were informed by Senator Carroll that this committee ·will s top here, al though it still would not show on the agenda . Senator Carroll, in conjunction with Senator Allott, requested that this Board establish the agenda for that meeting, and to ,determine what people would pre­ sent oral testimony . As far as we are concerned anyone can present written testimony but we will only have about four hours for oral testimony. This committee will stop here while they are enroute to another place. \·le are now preparing an agenda and writing certain people requesting that they present oral testimony and to all interested people and agencies and asking that they present written t estimony.

-61- At present Senator Allott , Senator Carroll, and Governor McNichols will all present oral testimony. I have written to President Morgan of Colorado State University asking that he pre­ sent oral testimony. There will be one presenta­ tion from this Board of oral testimony and I am going to try to work in oral presentation of each of the major conservancy districts in the state - Southeastern, Southwestern, Northern and the Colorado River. That just about exhausts the committee's time as far as oral presentations are concerned. We also want an oral presentation from the Colorado Water Congress. \'/hen we get through we will have some rather voluminous testimony to present to the committee. That' s briefly the method by which this will be handled." MR. STAPLETON: "What ' s the purpose of this committee? Or is that an unfair question?" MR . BARNARD, JR.: "I've followed this thing pretty carefully since Senate Resolution 48 was first introduced last February, I believe it was , and adopted in March or April. The purpose of the committee is to determine what is going to be needed, and how those needs can be met, as far as water use in the United States is concerned up through 1980. As to just what approach they are going to take , I think the committee is in the same posi­ tion as we are. They don't know yet and I think they would like some guidance, some of the think­ ing of the people in the various states, as to how the United States Government should proceed in assisting or in fulfilling its proper role in water development . Now I did attend the meeting at Laramie and presented a statement at that time. It was at that time that I talked with the staff of the committee and, because of a paragraph which I had in my statement which was critical of the fact there was not a meeting scheduled in Colo­ rado, that I found there was no meeting in Colo­ rado because one hadn ' t been formally requested. It was because of that that this meeting was worked out. I talked with Carroll's people, Harry Schnibbe, and through Senator Carroll this meet­ ing was brought to Colorado .

- 62 - I am hopeful that in working out the pre­ sentation to be made, that we will assign speci­ fic subjects also to the people, because at the Laramie hearing, and at many of the hearings that I have attended of various Senate committees, everyone wants to cover the whole subject in five minutes, as a result of which you get a repeti­ tion of the same general statements without going into details. I think frankly that if we do ap­ proach it from that standpoint and organize the thing carefully, we can get a lot of our think­ ing into the minds of this Senate committee. I think we can a ccomplish some real good. I don't think much real good was accomplished at Laramie because of the same problem - everyone was try­ ing to cover the whole subject or else they were in there promoting some small project. Now I think specifically the committee doesn't want to go into details on every project in Colorado that has been proposed . " MR. STAPLETON: "Is this sort of a taking of an inventory?" MR. BARNARD, JR.: "It is an inventory of what the problems are and what is going to have to be done in the future and what the role of the United States will be in doing it. That's the whole work of the conqnittee. I think the present hearings are trying to find out how they should go about this." MR. STAPLETON: "I am just a little discouraged. I thought · we had been taking an inventory for years and that somebody, the Bureau or elsewhere, had been making something of it but evidently this is a whole independent operation. Is it independent of what knowledge we had before this time?" MR. BARNARD, JR.: "No , I wouldn't say it is independent of the knowledge that we have. I would say that proba­ bly it will collect what information exists in the various departments. True, the Bureau has been inventorying the problems from the stand­ point of reclamation, and the Corps has from the standpoint of flood control, and sometimes they get confused as to who is doing what. As far as any broad general approach to try to tie the whole thing together, there hasn't been any, and I think that's what the Select Committee is try­ ing to do~ to try and get the whole thing out­ lined to see where we are going in water develop­ ment in the United States."

-63- MR. STAPLETON: "A.ny further conunent on this? I am sure that we want to cooperate and will with this conunittee when the time comes." MR. WHITTEN: "When has the meeting been scheduled?" MR. SPARKS: "It's to be the 20th of November. We anti­ cipate that it will be over in the State Capitol, probably in the H<~mse Chambers." MR. NELSON: "Are the acoustics better there than in the Senate?" MR. STAPLETON: "It won't make any difference. Jim, are we going to have any report from the Bureau at this meeting?" MR. KNIGHTS: "Nothing that I know of, Ben." MR. STAPLETON: "Is there anything further? We've come to the end of the particular agenda items." MR. NELSON: "Mr. Chairman, I have a matter. The Bureau, Region 4, each time they send in a report on the participating projects it pushes the dates for starting the feasibility studies a little bit farther off. It appears to me that they have decided they have had too much pressure for authorization so they are going to slow up the feasibility studies. I checked on one project last week and found out it had been pushed off a year, just the start of the study, and some of the other projects are in the same situation. I don't know exactly what we can do about these, but to be aware of the fact that that is going on. It might become worse in future years. Each time a schedule comes out it is a year or two or three years later." MR. SPARKS: "One good explanation for that, of course, - it's not a good explanation but it's an explana­ tion - is the fact that for this year, for in­ stance, · as we discussed previously in a Board meeting, some $200,000 was cut off the budget for Colorado by action of the Congress, not by the Bureau. The Bureau requested the money but by action of the Congress, those investigation funds were reduced something in the neighborhood of $200,000. Of course, that effects a substan­ tial slowdown in the Bureau's investigating

-64- program because they had figured this program based upon ' X' many dollars that they submitted in their budget. If they don't get this 'X' many dollars, then naturally the program is re­ tarded. I will agree that something strange is going on with reference to - or it seems to me, that too much time elapses between the time Region 4 completes it's report until the state is informed of it. To date we have heard noth­ ing about the Savery-Pot Hook , although as I recall, this report was essentially finished a year ago." MR. NELSON: "They are starting no feasibility reports in '61 at all. It's higher than the Bureau, it's in the Bureau of the Budget where they are pro­ bably making the decision." MR. SPARKS: "The trouble is coming from a higher level than the Regions that we deal with, I can assure you of that." MR. STAPLETON: "It seems to me this is a matter that we should constantly emphasize by resolution or otherwise or by communication through our Director to our Congressional delegates. Do you want us to take any specific action on this other than to have it noted in the re­ cords and to urge the Director to use what in­ fluence the Board has in regard to it?" MR. NELSON: "I thought we should all be aware of it and be all set to get a plug in for pushing the studies." MR . STAPLETON: "The members of the Board will be meeting with many of the reclamation people this week and I hope you will keep this in mind. Mr. Boustead."

MR. BOUSTEAD: "That is what I was going to suggest. Mr . Dominy, Assistant Secretary or something, is going to be here at the NRA convention this week." MR . STAPLETON: "We'll work on that."

-65- MR. BOUSTEAD: "That might also be a subject for discussion of the Colorado caucus at the NRA." MR. NELSON: "I have a copy of the latest schedule on the various projects." MR. STAPLETON: "Incidentally, this Colorado caucus, is it 8:30 in the morning in the Lincoln Room? Is that correct? The first one?" MR. BOUSTEAD: "That's right." MR. STAPLETON: "At 8:30 in the Lincoln Room of the Shirley­ Savoy Hotel. Everyone is encouraged to be there. There's a caucus set on Friday morning too at 8:00 o'clock, I believe." MR. BOUSTEAD: "There will probably be one on Thursday too." MR. STAPLETON: "There 's not one scheduled?" MR. BOUSTEAD: "No, but they always have one." MR. MILLER: "Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the same question about the Narrows. I see Mr. Knights here. I wonder what's happening." MR. STAPLETON: " Mr . Knights." MR. KNIGHTS: "I guess in answer to that Dave, is nothing at the moment. We only have an item of $15,000 in the budget this year and we know it hasn't been too long since the budget came out of the Appropriations, consequently the Congress has made no decision on it and therefore we have not yet started work on the Narrows but we will, and be underway on that this year." MR. MILLER: "Well, I hope the one project within north­ eastern Colorado receives some attention." MR. WHITTEN: "Dave, in connection with that I want to make a remark that might give you some informa­ tion and also for that of the Board members. At the recent meeting of the Missouri Basin Coord­ inating Committee exception was taken to the Narrows Project, although it was originally scheduled in the legislation for the next session, due to the very name of the project. The State of Missouri took exception since it is the same name as a project they had and were working on and they didn't want all this confusion to ari se

-66- and get their projects shot down the drain be­ cause of one in Colorado." MR. MILLER: "I think the State Engineer ought to re­ baptize the Narrows ." MR. STAPLETON: "We have a resolution from Hotchkiss and I will ask Ray to read it to us." MR. MOSES : "'Hotchkiss, Colorado, October 7, 1959: WHEREAS on March 10, 1959, a resolution was drawn up by the boards of directors of the Redlands Mesa Water Users Association, the Overland Ditch and Reservoir Company, and the Leroux Creek Water Users Association and sub­ sequently presented to the Colorado Water Con­ servation Board, requesting that they make an investigation to determine the possibility of developing a reclamation irrigation project for the Redlands Mesa area, and WHERE1\S this investigation has been com­ pleted and it i s found that there is approxi­ mately 22 , 500 acre feet of water available in the area draining into or that can be drained into the Overland Canal and an undetermined amount of water presently available and to be available upon completion of the Paonia Proj­ ect, and WHEREAS there are possible storage sites in the Overland drainage area for approximately 20 ,000 acre feet and possible storage sites in the Leroux Creek area, if needed: THEREFORE, We , the directors of the Red­ lands Mesa Water Users Association, the Overland Ditch and Reservoir Company, and the Leroux Creek Water Users Association do respectfully request the Colorado Water Conservation Board to present the plans as developed by its engineer to the Bureau of Reclamation and to request them to make a further study of this proposed project; further, we request that the Colorado Water Con­ servation Board place special emphasis on the early study and construction of a canal from Leroux Creek to Redlands Mesa as an initial phase of the proposed project for the purpose of making delivery of the water that will be available to Redlands f.'Iesa from Leroux Creek upon co_mpletion

- 67 - of the Paonia ProjR~t; FURTHER be it here resolved that copies of this resolution be sent to the Colorado Water Conservation Board, the Colorado River Water Conservancy District, the North Fork Water Con­ servancy District and the Bureau of Reclamation office at Grand Junction, Colorado. BOARD OF DIRECTORS, REDLANDS MESA WATER USERS ASSOCIATION : /s/ John W. Hawkins /s/ Willy J. Manz /s/ Billy Varner /s/ Oliver L. Davis /s/ Harold J. Paulson OVERLAND DITCH AND RESERVOIR CO: /s/ Louis Owens /s/ Ellis Latimer /s/ R. W. Henderson /s/ Henry Reddey /s/ John W. Hawkins LEROUX CREEK WATER USERS: /s/ Louis Owens /s/ Royden G. Girling /sf Raymond White /s/ James M. Bruce /s/ John W. Taylor /s/ Scott Ellis'" MR. PETERSON: "Mr. Chairman." MR. STAPLETON: "Mr. Peterson." MR. PETERSON: "Some of you, perhaps, are not familiar with the area quoted in the resolution, but that i s the area we looked over as we went on the tour a t our last meeting; that area between the Paonia Reservoir and Delta. We stopped there on the Redlands Mesa for a few minutes and viewed this area. This group is working very hard on this and they all have one thing in mind, the fact that this Board has made certain studies and gone as far as they can go now, to determine whether there is a possibility of a feasible project there or not . Those people would like very much, as the r esolution states, that this Board take action to inform the Bureau of Recla­ mation that studies shoul d go forward by the Bureau to prove the feasibility of this project. There is one part of it, as mentioned in the resolution, that i s of an immediate nature . Upon completion of the Paonia Reservoir which will be

-68- within the next 18 months or two years, there is going to be a certain amount of water made avail­ able if this can be transported to the area. Naturally it will have to be siphoned and chan­ neled to carry the water onto the area irrigated from the natural stream and this will have to be made a part of the project. The only way it can be made a part of the project is to be made a part of this overall project of irrigation in the entire area, more commonly known as the Grand Mesa Project. So there is the immediate necessity of some action being taken to try and get this thing under way as quickly as possible." MR. STAPLETON: "Where do we stand on the work of this Board?" MR. SPARKS: "Mr. Morrill, our Senior Hydraulic Engineer who is stationed in western Colorado, has done the basic work at the request of the water users in the Grand Mesa area. Sometime during this fiscal year, we will cooperate with the U.S. G. S. to establish gauging stations at various points to further determine the availability of water. The Grand Mesa Project, as such, is not scheduled for in­ vestigation until somewhere around 1964. It may be possible to speed that investigation up and call this an initial phase of the Grand Mesa project, which will then put us within the qual­ ifications of Public Law 485 since the Grand Mesa Project has a priority of investigation under that law. Undoubtedly if that is done some money will have to be forthcoming from the State of Colorado because as I said, the Bureau does not contemplate making an investigation until 1964. The import­ ance of this project is that we have some people who are actually pushing it, who are vitally in­ terested in it. That is more than we can say for a lot of projects that are listed under Public Law 485. We will attempt to work out, in the near future , a program for what we will call the initial phase of the Grand Mesa Project to pre­ sent to this Board." MR. NELSON: "Mr. Chairman, we could, if necessary, revise the priority list that we gave the Bureau."

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MR. SPARKS: "That' s correct. Mr . Gildersleeve and Mr. Morrill went to Salt Lake last week. We are in the process of giving close scrutiny to the priority list that is presently established. Frankly, I am not satisfied with that priority list, but we want to determine whether or not any changes are worthwhile. This is a matter we will have to throw into the laps of the board members of the Colorado River Water Conservation District so that any recommendations that are then to be made will be concurrent recommenda­ tions of this Board and that board, as far as projects under their jurisdiction are concerned. " MR. STAPLETON: " I don't think we need any action on this matter except to note that a resolution was re­ ceived in the office and acknowledged in the minutes. Lew, did you have a matter you wanted to bring up?" MR. L. WILLIAMS: "Yes. He have the San Miguel Project there that got knocked pretty hard in this $200 , 000 federal budget cut . We got quite a lot of help from the state board and got along pretty well with the program this summer. Now we have soil tests made that we are unable to run until after the 1st of July because they are about $5,000 short of money. Mr . Crabtree told me if he had the $5, 000 he could put on one more man and get all those soil tests they took this summer run. It would be quite a help to that project if we had them ready before the 1st of July. I would like to request, if possible, the Board to give the Bureau at Durango enough money to finish these soil tests." MR. STAPLETON: "What ' s your recommendation on that, Larry?" MR. SPARKS: "We have ample funds on hand for that pur­ pose. I forgot to bring my account sheet up here with me but we have in the neighborhood of $50,000 we have not committeed. It is available for cooperative studies with the Bureau of Recla­ mation. At the present time we have no specific use yet determined for that money . We are hold­ ing some out for the Narrows Project which we think will be necessary but in any event we don' t think more than $10 , 000 or $15,000 will be neces­ sary for the Narrows Project.

-70- ~

So as far as our finances are concerned and as far as the urgency of this situation is concerned, I can recommend to the Board that that amount be appropriated for the purpose specified." MR . PETERSON: "Mr. Chairman . "

MR . STAPLETON: "Mr. Peterson." MR. PETERSON: "I would like to move that we allocate $5,000 of our matching funds to hurry up the soil testing for the San Miguel Project." MR . STAPLETON: "This wouldn' t be matching funds , would it?" MR . SPARKS: " No . It' s cooperative funds ." MR. PETERSON: "All right, cooperative funds ." MR. STAPLETON: "Is there a second to that motion?" MR . CONOUR: "Second the motion ." MR. NELSON : " Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask just one question. The Bureau has the report on that scheduled for completion in '65. Would this move that up a year perhaps?" MR . L. WILLIID.6 : " No . He says it won ' t move it up but it will help their planning and in that way it might move it up. There are different areas where the soil tests have to be run and this is in a particu­ lar area. " MR. NELSON: " It wi ll take them quite a while to get them all r un?" MR. L. WILLIAMS: "Yes , it is a pretty good size area." MR. PETERSON : " Mr . Chairman, from the information I have gained, I think definitely it would hurry it up because if they can' t get along without extra personnel, it i s just going to drag out the testing that much longer and effect delay in the completion of investigations . That's my inform­ ation anyway ." MR . STAPLETON : "I would certainly like to have a slight idea that it would do something on that 1965 date . 11 MR . BARNARD , JR.: "Mr. Chairman, I think it has been the con- sistent policy of this Board that those funds are

- 71- •

only used when it will step up the progress of the matter and I think the motion to approve it should be conditioned, as every other motion has been, on the finding by the Director that it will result in hastening the report or preventing a delay in the report which, of course, amounts to the same thing." MR. SPARKS: "I think you'd get there by preventing a delay. Mr. Nelson ,has already pointed out the time table is constantly moved back, and the reason it is moved back is because of the lack of the availability of funds. So while this may not move the date up, it would certainly assist materially in not pushing it back." MR. BARNARD, JR.: "Well , I think that should be a part of the motion, if the Director so finds, then he can go ahead and spend the money." MR. STAPLETON: "Is that satisfactory, Mr. Peterson?" MR. PETERSON: "That' s satisfactory." MR. STAPLETON: "Is that satisfactory to Mr. Conour as the second?"

MR . CONOUR: "Yes." MR. STAPLETON: "The motion has been amended. Is there any further discussion?" MR . NELSON: "Question." MR. STAPLETON: " All those in favor will signify by saying ' aye '; opposed - the motion is carried. Is there any further business to come before the Board? If not, it looks like our next meet­ ing will be probably the second Wednesday in January, the 13th. Is there any objection to that date? Then we will schedule our next meet­ ing on the 13th of January. Mr . Sparks would like to talk with the mem­ bers of the Board here after the meeting adjourns.

\'le wish to thank all our guests for being with us." The meeting adjourned at 2:50 P. M.

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....

R E S O L U T I O N

BE IT RESOLVED by the Colorado Water Conservation Board to Join with the Ground Water Commission of the State of Colorado in recommending to the Legislature the following program: 1. That a special technical study task force be created, with adequate financial support, to consist of recognized and qualified experts in the following fields: Geology Hydrology \'Tel l Drilling Economics Water Pollution Control Water Law 2. That such special study task force be organized by the the cooperative effort of Colorado State University, University of Colorado, Colorado Water Conservation Board, Office of the St ate Engineer, the Department of Health, Office of the Attorney General, and the Ground Water Commission, and in carrying out its mission, the staffs of these agencies be utilized insofar as possi­ ble, and the assistance and cooperation of interested federal agencies be activel y sought . 3. That such special study task force be assigned the duty of recommending a workable Ground Water Code with sup­ porting scientific information for consideration by the cooperating agencies, and possible submission to the General Assembly if approved by these agencies after full consideration and public hearings.