Wednesday Volume 590 14 January 2015 No. 91

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 14 January 2015

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2015 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 849 14 JANUARY 2015 850

tight process. I will publish the draft clauses before House of Commons 25 August—sorry, I mean 25 January, which is, incidentally, before 25 August. With 25 January being a Sunday, we Wednesday 14 January 2015 might even meet the deadline with a few days to spare. Angus Robertson: Until now, the UK Government’s The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock position has been to remove the right of Scottish householders to object to unconventional gas or oil drilling underneath their homes. What will the position PRAYERS be between now and the full devolution of powers over fracking? Will the Department of Energy and Climate [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Change give an undertaking that it will not issue any fresh licences?

Mr Carmichael: The position will be as it is at the Oral Answers to Questions moment, which is that if there is any fracking project in Scotland, the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in the Scottish Government will have the power, using planning or environmental regulations, to block it. They should not SCOTLAND seek to push the blame on to anyone else.

The Secretary of State was asked— 11. [906928] Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome what the Secretary of State has Shale Gas said. Recently, I wrote to the Minister for Business, Energy and Tourism in the Scottish Government to ask 1. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): If he will whether it was their policy to block such developments. make it his policy that responsibility for licensing shale He wrote back to say that he endorsed the principle of gas extraction should be devolved to the Scottish robust regulation, but gave no answer on what their Parliament. [906918] policy was. Will the Secretary of State enlighten us as to whether he has heard anything from the Scottish The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair Government on this matter? Carmichael): That is already Government policy. As the hon. Lady will be aware, the Smith commission heads Mr Carmichael: No, I am afraid that I cannot assist of agreement stated that the licensing of onshore oil the hon. Lady in that regard. All I can do is point to the and gas extraction should be devolved to the Scottish fact that the Scottish Government seem to be desperate Parliament. The Government are committed to publishing to speak about the powers that are held by others, draft clauses in that respect by 25 January. rather than about the way in which they will exercise the powers that they already have. Her constituents and Sheila Gilmore: I very much welcome the Secretary of others will doubtless draw their own conclusions. State’s commitment to that part of the Smith agreement, to which my party is also committed, not least because it will put an end to the attempts by some people to Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ suggest that without the devolution of licensing, the Co-op): The Secretary of State will be aware that, Scottish Government are powerless to stop fracking if following the amendments that I moved in the Committee they want to. They already have powers over planning stage of the Infrastructure Bill yesterday, there has been and regulation, but I hope that this change will close movement from the Government, which we should all that argument down, to everybody’s benefit. welcome. Will he help the House by clarifying the fact that having a licence does not enable somebody to Mr Carmichael: The hon. Lady is right to say that the undertake any extraction or exploration activity? It has Scottish Government have planning and environmental been suggested that it does, but that is absolutely not regulation powers that would enable them to block any the case. fracking project they wanted to block. It is sensible, in the circumstances, that they should be given responsibility Mr Carmichael: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the licensing of such activities as well. That will be for his efforts on this matter and, in particular, for done as part of the Smith process. tabling his amendments. As was made clear to him yesterday in Committee, the Government will return to Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Scottish the matter on Report. We will table an amendment that Government and the Scottish National party have been we believe will achieve the same end, which is the pressing for the devolution of all powers over fracking carving out of Scotland from those provisions in the for some time. Why have the UK Government ruled out Infrastructure Bill. He is absolutely right that licensing devolving power over fracking licences until after the is just one element—it provides no overall entitlement. general election? For fracking to go ahead, the Scottish Government have to give consent on planning and environmental Mr Carmichael: That is part of the timetable to grounds. which we are all committed. Until I heard the Deputy First Minister speak at the National museum, I had Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): Labour recently thought that the hon. Gentleman’s party was committed called for immediate devolution in this area, and we to it as well. We are proceeding with that speedy and welcome the Government’s response, which as the Secretary 851 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 852 of State has said is part of the ongoing commitment to David Mundell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, the Smith agreement. Where appropriate, the Government and a key figure that demonstrates our ability to deal should move immediately to devolve the powers agreed with the issue is the record number of women in work in by the Smith commission. Scotland. I would have thought that politicians in all Today, the leaders of Scotland’s three largest cities, parts of the House would welcome that. home to a quarter of Scotland’s population, have joined us in calling for job-creating powers to be devolved too. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): The Will the Secretary of State bring forward a section 106 Child Poverty Action Group says that more than one in order so that those powers can go to Scotland as soon five children in Scotland are living in poverty, which is as possible and we can start the work to reverse the far higher than in many other European countries, and failure of this Government’s Work programme? that the number is increasing as the days pass. Can the Minister explain why child poverty is continuing to Mr Carmichael: The hon. Lady and I discussed a increase under his Government? section 106 order when we met recently, but I have to tell her that the route that she has identified—a section David Mundell: I do not accept the premise of an 106 order followed by a section 63 order—is not, in our increase. The Scottish Government’s most recent report view, the appropriate one to honour the commitments stated that we should not take a snapshot and should in the Smith programme. That would devolve competence instead look at indications over a longer period. I agree to the Government in Scotland, not the Parliament, with the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret which would need a section 30 order. I just do not see Curran) on one point, however: we have to see closer how we will achieve that end in the time available to us working together by the United Kingdom Government, in this Parliament, but we are determined that where the Scottish Government, local authorities and the third there is a need for joint working between the two sector. That is the best way to achieve a reduction in Governments to achieve a better transfer of power, my child poverty. right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I will be engaged in that process. National Insurance Contributions Child Poverty 3. Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) 2. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What (Con): What assessment he has made of the potential change there has been in the level of child poverty in effect on businesses in Scotland of the removal of the Scotland since 2010; and if he will make a statement. requirement for employers to pay national insurance [906919] contributions in respect of employees under the age of 21 and apprentices under the age of 25. [906920] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): Estimates of the number and proportion The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair of children in relative low income are published in the Carmichael): Abolishing employer national insurance National Statistics households below average income contributions for under-21s is expected to help Scottish series. Those estimates are available for each financial businesses save £45 million and support jobs for year up to 2012-13, and they show that since 2010 the 138,000 young people. Extending that to apprentices number and percentage of children in relative low income under 25 will help about 31,000 apprentices in Scotland, in Scotland have remained at 200,000 and 17% respectively. and it will be more than £1,000 a year cheaper to employ an apprentice earning £16,000. Ann McKechin: It is incredible how complacent the Government are about the fact that child poverty in Dame Angela Watkinson: Is it correct that the Scotland is increasing. According to the Institute for employment level in Scotland rose to a record level in Fiscal Studies, it is set to increase by a further 100,000 by the last financial quarter—even higher than the UK 2020 if the current Government’s policies are followed. average? Does that not demonstrate that the Government’s Is it not about time that both the UK and Scottish long-term economic plan is working across the United Governments, who seem to be relaxed about that increase Kingdom and especially in Scotland? in poverty, got together and worked out how we can effectively use policy on distribution so that the poorest Mr Carmichael: Indeed, my hon. Friend is absolutely can benefit? right, and that is especially true in areas that are hardest David Mundell: I am somewhat surprised at the hon. to move, such as youth unemployment, which is down Lady taking the nationalist line on the IFS figures. I by 5.1% over the past 12 months. Of course it is still too completely refute those figures about prospective increases high and of course there is still a great deal to do, but in child poverty in Scotland. This Government are not those figures and the ones that she has just mentioned complacent, but what our policies have achieved is a demonstrate that the Government’s plan is right, that it reduction in unemployment, an increase in employment is working and that we should not put it at risk by and wage increases outstripping inflation. Work is the handing power to those who would just borrow, spend best way out of poverty, and that is what this Government’s and play games for political ends. policy is. John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Does the Minister agree (LD): When my right hon. Friend next travels down the that with the number of workless households at its A9, may I commend to him a stop in Brora to visit lowest level for a generation across the UK as a whole, Highland Bespoke Furniture? It now employs six people the best way to help tackle child poverty is to get people as a direct result of the reduction in national insurance back into work? that has helped it to recruit further skilled work. Will 853 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 854 the Government consider extending the scheme to workers Department for Transport who has responsibility for over 25 who are coming back to work, as that would rail franchises said that the service at Dunbar was to be help further to expand that business and employment in reduced? that area? David Mundell: I think the hon. Lady was not listening Mr Carmichael: I thank my right hon. Friend for that to my previous answer. I undertook, on behalf of the question. I look forward to joining him in the not-too- hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), to investigate what distant future, and if Brora is a place in his constituency has been said previously about the rail link north of that he thinks I should see, I will be more than happy to Edinburgh, and I will also take up her point. go there with him. He is right to mention the opportunities that have been created as a result of this measure, and Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ businesses the length and breadth of Scotland will tell a Co-op): It is important that the train services that are similar story to the one he has just related. On his meant to run actually do so. The Minister will know proposal to extend the scheme, he will be aware that a that services on the east coast main line were severely Budget is coming up in March, and he or any hon. disrupted on 27 December and two days later as well. Member from across the House who wants to make Will he meet colleagues to try to ensure that when there representations can do so through the Scotland Office. are disruptions on the line—they were no fault of East Coast, by the way—they are dealt with more effectively, East Coast Main Line passengers are given real alternative information, and the system is made more resilient to such disruption? 4. Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): What steps the Government are taking to maintain existing Scottish rail services on and connected to the east coast main David Mundell: As a Member who represents a significant stop on the west coast main line at Lockerbie, I share line. [906921] the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about such disruption. I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland would be happy to meet him and any other colleagues (David Mundell): The new deal the Government have who share those concerns. signed for the east coast main line franchise with Virgin and Stagecoach will provide new services, new state-of- Broadband and Mobile Phone Coverage the-art trains with more capacity, and reductions in journey times. 5. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): What assessment he has made of the adequacy of provision Mr Weir: I thank the Minister for that answer. He of broadband and mobile phone coverage in rural will know that the east coast main line is an important Scotland. [906922] link through my constituency, but it has been reported that the new franchisee intends to drop one station The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair south of Edinburgh from the line, raising fears that Carmichael): The Government’s superfast broadband other stations may be dropped from the new service. rollout programme has provided over £120 million to Will he give an absolute assurance that, after the change the Scottish Government to improve broadband services. of franchisee, services on the east coast main line will More than 160,000 additional Scottish homes and continue to stop at all the stations currently used? businesses now have access to broadband as a result. The Government have recently achieved a deal with the David Mundell: I hoped that the hon. Gentleman and mobile network operators that will reduce complete not his colleagues would welcome the new franchise with its spots in Scotland by about two thirds, and partial not services to Falkirk and Stirling. There is no suggestion spots by one half. that there will be any reduction in services, but I am happy to make further inquiries for him on that point. Mr Reid: I very much welcome that investment, but Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): Will the Minister the money to bring superfast broadband to my constituency acknowledge that to increase the reliability, speed and was handed over to the Scottish Government, who are efficiency of the service between Edinburgh and Aberdeen supposed to be organising the delivery work. However, on the east coast main line, we need an upgrade of that many of my constituents complain to me that neither line, not least the ending of the single track south of the Scottish Government nor BT are able to tell them Montrose? What steps can he and/or the Scottish when, or even if, they will benefit from this project. Will Government, or the two together, take to ensure that my right hon. Friend please get on to the Scottish investment? Government and tell them to publish a clear timetable for the delivery of this important work? David Mundell: My right hon. Friend will be aware that we actively engage in discussions with the Scottish Mr Carmichael: Unfortunately, this is a tale I hear as Government on important strategic transport projects I travel around Scotland, especially in the highlands that impact on the whole United Kingdom, such as the and islands. The communities my hon. Friend is talking Forth crossing. I am sure that colleagues in the Scottish to—I am sure he represents many of them—are not Government will have heard his points, and I will unreasonable, but they do want to know what to expect, certainly raise them further with them. so that they can plan for their services and their businesses. One would not think that it was that difficult. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): The Minister said that my constituents can have confidence that there Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) will be no reduction in the service on the east coast (SNP): Mobile coverage is an important social utility, main line, but can he explain why the Minister at the as we have seen quite recently. Because of storms and 855 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 856 lightning, BT lines have been down for weeks in parts of If he has particular cases relating to delivery, which Lewis and Harris. Special thanks is due to BT and unfortunately we have given to the Scottish Government, hydro engineers, who have been working hard in very I am more than happy to help him in any way I can. bad weather to repair utilities. What are the right hon. Gentleman’s Government doing to ensure that island City Link and rural areas are not left behind with 90% 4G telephone coverage, especially considering that 2G and 3G have been bad and that, with its high data speeds, 4G coverage 6. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): What is an excellent system for accessing broadband? discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on job losses in Scotland resulting from City Link entering administration. [906923] Mr Carmichael: May I first join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the hydro engineers and telecoms engineers, who are working throughout the highlands The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and islands even as we speak? They provide an excellent (David Mundell): It was deeply regrettable that City service to our local communities and we should place Link went into administration over the festive period, on record our gratitude towards them. They work in particularly for its employees and contractors. My right very difficult circumstances. hon. Friend the Business Secretary spoke regularly with the unions to discuss the situation, and our focus now is On 4G coverage, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt on supporting those made redundant. The Department be aware of the deal my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Work and Pensions has been liaising with its of State for Culture, Media and Sport made recently counterparts in the Partnership Action for Continuing with mobile network operators. That offers the opportunity Employment service to ensure that support is available for greater coverage of 3G and 4G. We will need to see, to those made redundant in Scotland. when they come forward with the actual proposals, what that will mean for our communities, but I can Pamela Nash: Many people lost their jobs at City assure him that I am keeping an eye on it. Link’s Eurocentral depot in my constituency. I have been struck that not only direct employees but many Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): so-called self-employed subcontractors lost their jobs. In echoing and endorsing entirely the points made by In reality, the latter were solely employed by City Link my immediate highland constituency neighbour, my and had worked there for decades. They have been left hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), not just without redundancy payments but with tens of may I encourage the Secretary of State to stress to the thousands of pounds of debt. What are the Government Scottish Government the need in particular to draw doing to ensure that bogus self-employment is tackled BT’s attention to Openreach? It is ironically entitled, as and that this never happens again? constituents and consumers cannot reach it openly and cannot contact it directly, which is why they cannot get David Mundell: As the hon. Lady will be aware, the an answer to the legitimate question: when is last year’s administrators will provide a report to the Insolvency £10 million investment of UK Government money Service on what happened at City Link during the actually going to meet their needs and be delivered? period immediately before the redundancies and administration were announced, and we will obviously Mr Carmichael: It is clear, beyond any doubt, that a reflect on that. I take on board her point about self- substantial amount of money is going in from this employed contractors, and I will raise that directly with Government, the Scottish Government, local authorities DWP colleagues. and European funds to this most important area of economic development. Responsibility for delivery, at Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): When I met the end of that money, rests with the Scottish Government. workers from City Link this week, they told me they I take it, from the comments of my right hon. Friend found out from the media on Christmas eve that their and others in the House, that the Scottish Government company was closing, and the redundancies were confirmed need to be telling our communities more. on Hogmanay. This is an appalling situation, and no worker should be treated in such a way. It is too late for Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): those workers, but will the Minister ensure that his Someone once said: Government conduct a full and proper inquiry into the circumstances that led to the failure at City Link so that “We have got to stop thinking of broadband and other connectivity issues as being some sort of luxury. It is as important to the future workers can never be treated in that way again? sustainability of our communities as having a supply of water or electricity.” David Mundell: As the hon. Lady will have heard me Does the Secretary of State still agree with his own say, the administrators will provide a report to the words? If so, can he tell communities in Ochil and Insolvency Service. The Government have demonstrated, South Perthshire and elsewhere in Scotland why, when in their action over Comet, that if such a report highlights we have running water and electricity, we still do not practices that should be investigated, they will be. have superfast broadband? Smith Commission Mr Carmichael: I absolutely stand by my own words. I recognised them as soon as the hon. Gentleman 7. Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): What started to quote them. It is a view that I still hold and it the next steps are for implementation of the Smith is why this Government have made a substantial investment. commission proposals. [906924] 857 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 858

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alistair their quality of life and protecting them from becoming Carmichael): The Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime the victims of scams. Does the Minister agree that the Minister have made it clear that the Government are time for pilots is over, as the technology is proven, and committed to delivering draft clauses by 25 January. that we need to establish a national scheme to protect 300,000 Scots rather than just 300? Lorraine Fullbrook: Following the Prime Minister’s meeting with the new First Minister, does the Secretary David Mundell: I agree with my hon. Friend that this of State expect full support from the Scottish Government is an important issue. The pilots have been necessary to in ensuring a speedy delivery of the proposals in the test the technology involved. I am sure he will be able to draft Bill? make that very point to the Minister from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport when he meets him later Mr Carmichael: I have learned over the years not to today. expect too much when working with the Scottish Government, but I am hopeful that that will be the case. One way or the other, however, we shall deliver on the undertakings that were given. PRIME MINISTER

12. [906929] Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): The Smith commission agreement contained a strong desire The Prime Minister was asked— to see devolution extend to local government. Will the Engagements Secretary of State impress upon the SNP Scottish Government the need to embrace that desire, release Q1. [906978] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth their iron grip on power and devolve to local and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): If he will list his official government? engagements for Wednesday 14 January.

Mr Carmichael: Indeed. This is something we hear The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning, from communities across the country in Scotland. Power I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. in Scotland has been sucked up, particularly from local In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have councils, and exercised at the centre by the Scottish further such meetings later today. Government. That was not how devolution was ever intended to work, and they need to change their approach. Gregg McClymont: Given the damaging uncertainty over future investment in jobs that the Prime Minister’s Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): EU renegotiation strategy is creating in the business The Smith commission is not the only example of community, will the Prime Minister today give a guarantee parties working together. Yesterday, we saw a fantastic that he will not support an out vote in any future in/out example, when Scottish Labour walked through the EU referendum? Lobby with the Conservatives to support Conservative austerity. Does the Secretary of State envisage any The Prime Minister: Since I made the announcement other such “better together” moments coming before that there should be an in/out referendum on Europe, the next general election? the investment coming into Britain has gone up. There are regularly times when Britain is getting more inward Mr Carmichael: The only remarkable thing about investment than the rest of Europe put together. that is that it tells us absolutely nothing about what the SNP would do to tackle the deficit, if—heaven help Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): us—they were ever in a position to influence it. I am sure the whole House will want to honour the bravery of NHS Ebola volunteers and welcome the Nuisance Calls news that Nurse Pauline Cafferkey is off the critical list. As the Oxford vaccine group moves to the next stage of 8. Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): What its Ebola trial, will the Prime Minister congratulate it discussions he has had with the Minister for culture, on its outstanding work so far and offer all possible communications and creative industries on how effectively support in the race to develop this vital vaccine? the Government are protecting vulnerable consumers in Scotland from nuisance calls. [906925] The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this issue. I am sure everyone is thinking of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Pauline Cafferkey. It is very good news that she is out of (David Mundell): I commend my hon. Friend on his critical care, but there is still a long way to go. What my work in recent years on this serious issue. Tackling this hon. Friend says about developing a vaccine is vital. problem is a priority for the Department for Culture, The right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Government Media and Sport, and I understand that the Minister Policy and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is with responsibility for culture, communications and leading the work on this, ensuring that we do everything creative industries will meet him later today to discuss to cut through some of the bureaucracy that would the matter. otherwise be in place, so that we can develop a vaccine fast. Mike Crockart: Over the last two years, trials run by councils and trading standards officers have installed Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): The whole call blockers in the homes of 400 older and vulnerable country, across all faiths and communities, felt a sense Scots, blocking more than 100,000 nuisance calls, improving of solidarity with the people of France following last 859 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 860 week’s dreadful attacks. Those who seek to terrorise Let me make one final point, in, I hope, a spirit of and divide us should be in no doubt: they will fail. This friendliness across the House. One or two people, referring House of Commons has sent a clear signal on this issue: to our current situation, have said that this is something we are united. of a zombie Parliament. Let me point out that the Turning to the actions that need to be taken, does the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, which is absolutely Prime Minister agree with me that a key objective of vital to the defeating of terrorism, is being discussed our counter-terrorism efforts must be to prevent young and debated in the Houses of Parliament right now. people from being drawn into violent extremism in the first place? Does he also agree that the programme Edward Miliband: I am glad that we can work across designed to tackle the problem, Prevent, needs to be parties on that issue, and we will endeavour to continue expanded so that it supports, in particular, community-led to do so. Let me now turn to an issue on which there is action and is given the priority it deserves? less agreement. In May 2010, speaking about the television debates, a party leader said: The Prime Minister: Let me agree with the right hon. “it would have been feeble to find some excuse to back out so I Gentleman about how important it is to stand together thought we’ve got to stick at this, we’ve got to do it.” in favour of free speech, freedom of expression, the rule Will the Prime Minister remind us who said that? of law and democracy—the values that we hold dear. I think the demonstration in Paris and the outpouring we The Prime Minister: I am all for these debates taking have seen both here and around the world against these place, but you cannot have—[Interruption.] horrific attacks shows that those values will not be defeated. Mr Speaker: Order. The question has been asked, On what the right hon. Gentleman says about what and the answer must be heard. must be done, we have to prepare for any attack that could take place. That means making sure that we fund The Prime Minister: I am all for these debates, but our counter-terrorism policing properly, as we do. It you cannot have two minor parties without the third means reaching out to potentially vulnerable groups of minor party. So I put the question to the right hon. people—for instance, I met the Jewish Leadership Council Gentleman: why is he so frightened of debating with the yesterday. But as the right hon. Gentleman says, it also Green party? means confronting the poisonous narrative of Islamist extremism. That is what we are doing through putting a Edward Miliband: I will debate with anyone whom duty on every public organisation to confront extremism the broadcasters invite, but the man who said that it wherever they find it, whether that is in universities, would be feeble to back out of the debates was the schools, on campuses, in prisons or elsewhere. That is Prime Minister. Now, we all understand that as long what the Prevent programme, which we are expanding, ago as last Thursday his abiding passion was to give the is all about. Green party a platform, but it is frankly a pathetic excuse. [Interruption.] It is not for him, it is not for me, Edward Miliband: Let me associate myself with what it is not for any party leader to decide who is in the the Prime Minister said, and particularly what he said debate. It is up to the broadcasters. That is the country about anti-Semitism and prejudice wherever we find it. that we live in. Is the Prime Minister really telling the On the point about British citizens who travel to Syria people of Britain that he will seek to deny them the to participate in the conflict, does he agree that, with television debates if he does not get to choose who is in more than half of them having returned, we need to do them? more? In particular, does he agree that we need a much more rigorous approach, including compulsory engagement The Prime Minister: We had a set of European elections with de-radicalisation programmes to turn people away last year, and UKIP and the Greens both beat the from violent extremism? Liberal Democrats, I am afraid to say. It is very simple. You either have both of them, or you have none of The Prime Minister: I think it right for us to we do them. So let me ask the right hon. Gentleman again: everything we can to stop people travelling to Syria to why is he so chicken when it comes to the Greens? take part in these activities, and that is what the Counter- Terrorism and Security Bill—which is going through Edward Miliband: There is only one person who is the House of Lords right now—is intended to do; but running scared of these debates, and that is this Prime also, as the right hon. Gentleman says, people coming Minister. When he says that he does not want to take back to this country should be looked at on a case-by-case part because of the Greens, no one, but no one, believes basis, and in every case consideration should be given to him—not the people behind him, not the person next to whether they would benefit from a counter-radicalisation him, not the country. However he dresses it up, everyone programme. knows that he is running scared. These debates do not As for the Prevent programme, it was reviewed by belong to me, and they do not belong to him. They Lord Carlile in 2011, and he said of that existing belong to the British people. What does he think gives programme: him the right to run away from these debates? “there have been cases where groups whom we would now consider to support an extremist ideology have received funding.” The Prime Minister: There are two credible sets of That is why we changed Prevent. We are now expanding debates. You can either have a debate with all the the programme, and, as the right hon. Gentleman says, national parties who appear in the House, or you can we need to ensure that everyone who would benefit have a debate between the two people one of whom from counter-radicalisation gets it. would become Prime Minister—or you can have both. 861 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 862

Those are the credible debates. So I ask the right hon. The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend that Gentleman again: when he looks at the Green party, the first duty of every Government is to keep the why is he so scared? country safe. We certainly do not do that by trashing our own civil liberties and traditions. When it comes to Edward Miliband: I will debate with anyone whom this vital issue of being able to have proper surveillance the broadcasters invite to debate. I think the Prime of the communications of potential terrorists, up until Minister doth protest too much. He has run out of now this Parliament and British Governments have excuses, he is running scared of these debates, and, in taken a very clear view: whether it has been about the words of his heroine Lady Thatcher, he is frit. looking at letters, or about fixed telephone communications or mobile communications, we have always believed The Prime Minister: Is it not interesting, Mr Speaker? that, in extremis, on the production of a signed warrant With just 10 of these sessions to go, the right hon. from the Home Secretary, it should be possible to look Gentleman wants to debate having a debate. He cannot at someone’s communications to try and stop a terrorist talk about unemployment, because it is coming down; outrage. The decision we have to take is: are we prepared he cannot talk about growth in the economy, because it to allow in future, as technology develops, safe spaces is going up; he cannot talk about his energy price freeze, for terrorists to communicate? The principle I think we because it has turned him into a total joke. I have to say should adopt is that we are not content for that to to him that the more time he and I can spend in the happen, and as a result we should look to legislate television studio and on television, the happier I shall accordingly. be. But please, if he has any more questions left, will he ask a serious one? Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): Raif Badawi faces 1,000 lashes and 10 years in prison because he wrote some articles with which his Government disagreed. Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): The former Will the Prime Minister join me in condemning the Prime Minister Mr Blair had to be summoned to the barbaric and mediaeval regime of Saudi Arabia, and Northern Ireland Affairs Committee yesterday to reluctantly does he believe that our international alliances should give evidence. We now understand that the director-general be founded more on human rights and less on economic of the BBC, Lord Hall, is refusing to give evidence to muscle? another Select Committee on the grounds that he is a Member of Parliament. He is also a paid public servant. The Prime Minister: We do not approve of these sorts Is it not time that we reviewed the matter of parliamentary of punishments, and we always raise these cases in the privilege in this place? strongest possible way when British citizens are involved, and I know we will on this occasion, too. The Prime Minister: I will look very carefully at what my hon. Friend says. Obviously it is a matter for the Q4. [906981] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and Select Committee and the House, but the general rule East Thurrock) (Con): Unemployment down 44%, should be that people involved in the senior management youth unemployment down 45%, long-term unemployment of the BBC who are summoned to appear in front of a down 44%, business start-ups up 31% and 800 apprenticeship Select Committee should come, because the BBC needs starts—all in the last year in South Basildon and East to be, and is, publicly accountable. I think Lord Hall Thurrock. What does my right hon. Friend think that does a very good job at the BBC, and I am sure he says about our long-term economic plan? would give a good account of himself, but I will have a careful look at what my hon. Friend says. The Prime Minister: I am delighted at the news that my hon. Friend brings. It is remarkable how in almost Q2. [906979] Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) every constituency in this House the number of people (Lab): At the Liaison Committee meeting on claiming unemployment benefit is down and the number 16 December the Prime Minister promised to look into of young people claiming benefit is down. There are the full publication of the extensively redacted DEFRA 224,000—almost a quarter of a million—more people report on shale gas rural economy impacts. Has he in work in the east of England as a whole. Those are looked into this, and is he now going to insist on full statistics, but every one of those statistics is about and unredacted publication? someone who is going out and earning a wage, supporting their family and managing to achieve a better standard The Prime Minister: I did look into the issue, and I do of living. That is what we must continue with, and that not want to give the hon. Gentleman an inaccurate is why we must stick to the long-term economic plan. answer so I will go and check on the action taken after that meeting and see what I can tell him. Q5. [906982] NicDakin(Scunthorpe)(Lab):Eliminating the deficit, net migration down to tens of thousands, Q3. [906980] Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): In a no VAT rise, no top-down reorganisation of the NHS speech last week the director general of MI5 identified —why did the Prime Minister make these promises and a number of important gaps in its surveillance which why did he break them? need to be addressed in law. Some have called that a breach of civil liberties, and others have said that it is The Prime Minister: We said we would get the deficit just another snoopers charter, but does the Prime down and the deficit is down by half as a share of our Minister agree that public safety must come above national economy, from the disgraceful situation left by everything else and that civil liberty must include not Labour. I thought the hon. Gentleman would take the being bombed, shot or beheaded by some deranged opportunity to talk about the vital steel interests in his jihadist? constituency, which we will be talking about later today. 863 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 864

We are working as hard as we can to make sure we keep long-term economic plan is delivering better quality steel production growing in our country, but as the hon. jobs and opportunities for people across Halesowen Gentleman has introduced a political element, so might and Rowley Regis? I. Under this Government steel production is up, where it was down under Labour. Under this Government The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend employment in the steel industry is up, where it was in congratulating Chloe on starting her apprenticeship. down under Labour. Why is that? Because we have a car In his constituency, nearly 4,000 people have begun an industry that is growing, an aerospace industry that is apprenticeship since 2010 and the claimant count there growing, and construction is growing. We are getting is down 42% since the election. The long-term youth Britain back to work. claimant count—that should be of the greatest concern to us, because that is young people on unemployment benefit month after month—is down by 58% in the last Q6. [906983] Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the past 12 months, year alone. This recovery is gathering pace and is providing more than 60 journalists have been killed in the course jobs for people, and each one of those jobs is the chance of their work, including those at Charlie Hebdo last for them to provide a better future for their families. But week? Just five weeks ago, I and several other Members we must stick to the plan and a key part of the plan is of Parliament attended the signing in Paris of a getting the deficit down. declaration by representatives of every European country, recognising the vital role of journalists in a free society Q9. [906986] Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): and pledging to do everything possible to protect their Ambulance trusts are under such pressure that they are safety.Will my right hon. Friend reaffirm that commitment downgrading calls from some of the sickest people in today? the country. In the East of England area, 57 people are believed to have died while waiting for an ambulance that never arrived. Is not the Prime Minister ashamed The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend that this is what happens when the Tories run the NHS? for the work he does in supporting the freedom of the press and I certainly reiterate what he says today. This The Prime Minister: Clearly, what happened in East most struck me when I visited Jaffna, in northern Sri Anglia was wrong, and the change was made without Lanka, and went to see a newspaper office that had the knowledge of the trust’s board. As soon as it was been shot up, bombed and burned. That brings home found out, the chief executive reversed the decision and what journalists in other countries have for years faced ordered that an independent investigation be carried in bringing the truth and putting it in front of the out by someone outside the trust. That investigation people, which is a vital part of a free democratic system. found that there had been no harm to patients, and I Obviously, the events in Paris are truly horrific, and the think it is important to put this in context. The hon. duty of everyone in public life is not necessarily to say Gentleman quite rightly says that it is important that we whether or not we agree with this or that being published— conduct this debate in a good and civilised way. At the everyone can have their opinion; it is not that that weekend, the Leader of the Opposition was asked seven matters. What matters is that we should always defend times whether he had used the phrase that he wanted to the right of people to publish whatever is inside the law “weaponise the NHS”. Seven times he refused to answer and in their opinion right to publish. That is our job the question. Everybody knows that he said those words, and we must do it properly. and if he had a shred of decency in him, he would get up and explain that he should not have said those Q7. [906984] Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) words, and apologise. (Lab/Co-op): We are seeing a meltdown in emergency care, yet the Prime Minister’s Health Secretary accuses Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): A few weeks ago, us of whipping up a crisis. Is it not time for some a tragic event occurred in my constituency when a honesty? This Government are simply failing our NHS. five-year-old girl, Andrea Gada, was killed in a traffic accident. Since then, Eastbourne and her school, Shinewater primary, have rallied round to support her parents and The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. Lady the rest of her family. They have raised money to try to for raising the NHS because, absolutely, we do face real bring her grandparents and her aunt over from Zimbabwe challenges this winter with the pressures on A and E. to Eastbourne to join the family at the funeral, but the But in her own constituency, the Homerton University Home Office has refused those relatives entry, saying Hospital NHS Foundation Trust proved what can be that they would abscond. The parents have given me an done with the extra resources that we are putting in and undertaking that this will not happen, and I have gone a the excellent management of that hospital. Last week, step further and said that I will act as a guarantor that 96.6% of people going to A and E in her constituency the relatives will return to Zimbabwe. The Home Office’s were seen within four hours. decision is cruel and unkind. Prime Minister, will you intervene? Q8. [906985] James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): Last week I met Chloe, a care assistant The Prime Minister: It is absolutely horrific when apprentice who started her apprenticeship after visiting children are killed in accidents like this, and we all my most recent jobs fair in Halesowen. Will the Prime know of individual cases in our own constituencies. It Minister congratulate all those people who have got is heartbreaking when it happens. I will certainly look jobs and started apprenticeships in my constituency at the case—I was just discussing it with the Home since 2010, where unemployment has fallen by 30% in Secretary—and make sure that the Home Office has a the last year alone—further evidence that the Government’s careful look to see what can be done. 865 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 866

Q10. [906987] Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) increase in funding of 4.79% and the numbers of staff (DUP): The Prime Minister will be aware that members in it are up. If we look at Barts hospital, we see that last of the public and small businesses across the UK have week over 6,630 people were seen within four hours, had to endure very high fuel bills in recent years when and performance across the London area has been very oil prices were averaging more than $100 a barrel. In good. I make one further point to him, which he might recent weeks, that price has dropped steadily and now want to bring home to his own local authorities—this is stands at less that half that level. However, fuel prices important when we consider what is happening in social at the pump have not been reduced by anything like care. He has two local authorities: Redbridge, which has that amount. Last week, the Chancellor indicated that seen its reserves go up by £65 million since 2010; and some action would be taken against the fuel companies. Waltham Forest, whose reserves have gone up by £26 million Will the Prime Minister outline what action that since 2010. That is what is happening and that actually will be? would provide. Finally, let me give him the information on Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest and Newham as a The Prime Minister: First, we should welcome this whole in terms of the winter funding money: that has fall in oil prices. We are beginning to see prices fall quite provided 22 more doctors, 27 more nurses and 146 more substantially at the pumps, but I agree with the hon. beds. Gentleman that we want to see them go down further and faster. Some of this will depend on the buying Q12. [906989] Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): There strategies that the fuel companies had, but we will are over 3 million people with diabetes in this country, ensure that the competition authorities and the Government and today Diabetes UK has published its state of the do everything they can to ensure that those fuel prices nation report. It calls for education to help people are passed on. prevent type 2 diabetes; education so that people know Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): On when to approach their general practitioner with symptoms 30 January, I shall be holding a dementia summit in my of type 1 or type 2; and education of people with the constituency to bring together some of the fantastic condition so that they can self-manage and take pressure work that voluntary sector organisations such as Wetherby off the NHS. Will the Prime Minister look at the report in Support of the Elderly—WiSE—and Peter Smith in and act on its findings? Rothwell have done on dementia. Does my right hon. Friend agree that dementia is one of the biggest challenges The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at this that this country faces in the coming century? Does he report, because of all the health care conditions diabetes also agree that we need a strong economy if we are to be is one of the ones where, if we act on it fast, we could able to invest in dementia research? have a huge knock-on effect on the NHS. If we look at the costs of things such as amputations and other The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely treatments because people are getting diabetes, we see right. This is a crisis for our country. It has been that we could make an enormous impact. The hon. creeping up like a sort of silent crisis, because the Gentleman raises the issue of people being able to diagnosis rate has not been high enough and I do not self-regulate. An enormous amount of exciting new think there has been enough action across our communities technology is coming forward on diabetes, and I want to join up and deal with it. That is now happening, to make sure that that technology is rapidly adopted by however, and we have a clear dementia strategy. We are the NHS. doubling the amount of money going into research and we are training many more people in our NHS and our Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The care homes to deal with people with dementia better. independent Office for Budget Responsibility says that Also, we are ensuring that more people in the community the Government’s long-term spending plans mean cutting become dementia friends, with a target of more than 1 million public service workers. Could the Prime Minister 1 million people doing so. We had a session in Cabinet tell the country which million he is planning to cut? the other day at which every member of the Cabinet became a dementia friend. I commend what my hon. The Prime Minister: The OBR says exactly what the Friend is doing in his constituency—I did the same in Treasury says, which is that everyone who last night mine—getting together all the organisations that can voted for the fiscal mandate is committed to £30 billion help people with dementia so that we can spread the of adjustment in the next two years. My party has set word about good practice. People with dementia need out exactly how we meet that: it is £13 billion of not only great health care but help when they are at the departmental cuts and £12 billion of welfare cuts and post office, the bank and the building society, and when £5 billion from tax evasion and avoidance. So far the they are on the bus or at the train station. They need Labour party has told us absolutely diddly-squat about help in every part of their life and we all have a role how it would raise a single penny of that money, so the to play. challenge for the Labour party is: if you are going to Q11. [906988] John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) sign up to £30 billion of adjustment, is it not time you (Lab): According to the Royal College of Nursing, the told us which taxes are going to go up, what you are number of nurses in London has fallen by 4,500. The going to do about debt and how you are going to wreck Prime Minister says that the number is rising. Who is this country’s economy? right? Q13. [906990] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my The Prime Minister: The fact is that nationwide we right hon. Friend seen the story of White Van Alison in have 3,300 more nurses, and I can give the hon. Gentleman The Sun, on page 6, today? Is he aware that under this some figures for his own constituency.The NHS Redbridge Government white van women are flourishing? Over clinical commissioning group is this year getting an 20% of businesses are run by women and over 53% of 867 Oral Answers14 JANUARY 2015 Oral Answers 868 apprenticeships are started by females. Does he agree there were no beds available. Does the Prime Minister that white van women, especially those from Essex, are think that axing A and E and all but 24 of 360 inpatient the wheels of our long-term economic plan? beds at Charing Cross, as he proposes, will make such appalling incidents more or less likely in the future? The Prime Minister: Absolutely, and those wheels must keep turning. The point my hon. Friend makes is The Prime Minister: The truth is that, nationwide, important. Of course I look at The Sun every morning, 94% of people have so far this year been seeing a doctor and I was fascinated to see this article. The fact is that within four hours at A and E. But everybody in this under Labour, female unemployment went up by 24%. House knows, and everybody who is a neighbouring Under this Government the number of women in work Member of Parliament of the hon. Gentleman knows, is at its highest since records began. The proportion of that he is absolutely instrumental in spreading women-led businesses in our country is up by a third, disinformation campaign after disinformation campaign but it is still true that if we could get the same level of about his local hospitals. For once, he should take the female entrepreneurship in Britain as there is in America, truth and put it in a leaflet. we would virtually wipe out the remaining unemployment. Q15. [906992] Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): At 1 o’clock (Con): Some people are quick to criticise the NHS this afternoon a petition will be laid at No. 10 Downing when it faces challenges. It must also then be right street by parents and children who are suffering from to celebrate its successes, so will the Prime Minister Duchenne muscular dystrophy. It calls on the Prime congratulate Milton Keynes hospital and the university Minister personally to get involved to get NHS England of Buckingham on establishing a new medical school to stop a bureaucratic internal debate which is preventing that will not only train the next generation of clinicians the licensing of the drug Translarna, which can have an but raise standards at our hospital? effect on young boys that means they do not have to go into a wheelchair before it is absolutely necessary. At The Prime Minister: I am very happy to join my hon. the moment most of them are in a wheelchair before Friend in doing that. Making sure that we educate the they reach their teens. Will the Prime Minister personally next generation of doctors, nurses and clinicians is get involved and get this resolved as a matter of urgency? vital. Under this Government, we have 9,000 more doctors and 3,300 more nurses. We are treating 1.3 million The Prime Minister: I will try to find time to see those more people in A and E, and there are 6 million more parents today. I was looking at this issue last night and out-patient appointments. That is what is happening in there was a child, who was about the same age as my our NHS, and all credit to the hard-working staff who son, pictured with his local football team, just as my son are carrying out that vital work. was. It made me think how vital it is to get these drugs through as quickly as we can. I know that there has Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): been a debate on whether these drugs should be licensed Welfare benefit recipients are often demonised as a quickly and on all the issues and problems. I will meet burden on our taxpayers, but does the Prime Minister those parents, look at their petition and see what can be agree that the real burden on taxpayers are those employers done. who can afford to pay well above the minimum wage, thereby lifting hard-working families out of state Q14. [906991] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Will dependency and food banks? my right hon. Friend tell the House what is worse: to deny the deficit, forget that it exists or have no plan to The Prime Minister: I am in favour of the living wage. bring it back into balance? Those organisations that can pay the living wage should pay the living wage. It is something that should happen. The Prime Minister: I think that in the three stages of But in addition to that, what we can help with— man—or at least the three stages of Miliband—we are [Interruption.] I hear the Leader of the Opposition. now at the final part. Labour Members have, I think, Doncaster council does not pay the living wage, so finally accepted that there is a deficit. They have now perhaps he should start with his own backyard. That voted for £30 billion of adjustment, but they cannot shut him up. In addition to that and to seeing the manage to tell us how much they will raise in taxes and minimum wage rise, we should be taking the lowest-paid what they will do with spending. They have had four people out of tax. Under this Government, we have and a half years to come up with an economic policy taken 3 million of the lowest paid people out of tax. and they have absolutely no plan for our country. Mr Slaughter: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): My 94-year- old constituent was taken by ambulance from her GP to Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is a very A and E at Charing Cross hospital where she waited six experienced Member. He must know by now that points hours in a corridor before being admitted. The next of order come after statements. In any case, I always morning, she was moved to another hospital because enjoy saving up the hon. Gentleman for later. 869 14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 870

Terrorist Attacks (Paris) through a range of other measures. We have improved joint working between the emergency services to deal 12.34 pm specifically with marauding gun attacks. Specialist joint police, ambulance and fire teams are now in place in key The Secretary of State for the Home Department areas across England, with equivalents in Scotland and (Mrs Theresa May): With permission, Mr Speaker, I Wales, and they are trained and equipped to manage would like to make a statement about the terrorist casualties in the event of that kind of an attack. attacks in Paris, and the threat we face from terrorism in The police and other agencies regularly carry out the United Kingdom. exercises to test the response to a terrorist attack, and It will take some time for us to learn the full details of these exercises include scenarios that are similar to the the attacks last week, but the basic facts are now clear. events in Paris. We will ensure that future exercises Seventeen innocent people were murdered in cold blood, reflect specific elements of the Paris attacks, so we can and a number of others were injured. Amedy Coulibaly, learn from them and be ready for them should they ever the terrorist who attacked the Jewish supermarket, claimed occur in the United Kingdom. In addition, I should tell his actions were carried out in the name of ISIL. the House that the police can call on appropriate military Unconfirmed reports suggest that Cherif and Said assistance when required across the country. Kouachi—the two brothers who attacked the office of The attacks in Paris were enabled by the availability Charlie Hebdo—were associated with al-Qaeda in the of assault weapons. Although there are obviously a Arabian Peninsula in Yemen, the same al-Qaeda affiliate number of illegal weapons in the UK, we have some of that had been in contact with the men who murdered the toughest gun laws in the world, and as a result Fusilier Lee Rigby in 2013. firearms offences make up only a small proportion of As the appalling events in Paris were unfolding, this overall recorded crime. The types of firearms used in House was debating the Government’s Counter-Terrorism the attacks in Paris are not unknown in the UK, but and Security Bill, and the threat level in the United they are extremely uncommon. However, as the Prime Kingdom—which is set by the independent Joint Terrorism Minister has said, we must step up our efforts with Analysis Centre—remains at severe. This means that a other countries to crack down on the illegal smuggling terrorist attack in our country is highly likely and could of weapons across borders. In particular, the member occur without warning. states of the European Union need to work together Three serious terrorist plots have been disrupted in to put beyond use the vast numbers of weapons in the recent months alone. Nearly 600 people from this country countries of the former Yugoslavia and disrupt the have travelled to Syria and Iraq to fight, around half of supply of weapons from other parts of the world, them have returned, and there are thousands of people especially north Africa. from across Europe who have done the same. As I said The measures we have taken following events in Paris during the passage of the Counter-Terrorism and Security are in addition to the substantial work that the Government Bill and have said on many, repeated occasions, the have undertaken, and continue to undertake, to counter Government will do everything they can to keep the the threat from terrorism. Last summer, Parliament public safe. approved emergency legislation to prevent the sudden As soon as the attacks in France took place, the and rapid loss of access to communications data and to Government increased security at the UK border. Officers provide for the ability to intercept communications from Border Force, the police and other organisations where it is necessary and proportionate to do so. Parliament intensified checks on passengers, vehicles and goods is of course scrutinising the proposals in the Counter- entering the UK, and we offered the French Government Terrorism and Security Bill as we speak. This important all assistance necessary, including the full co-operation legislation will strengthen our powers to disrupt the of our police and security and intelligence agencies. ability of people to travel abroad to fight, and control On Sunday, before I attended the peace rally in Paris, their ability to return here. It will also enhance our I held talks with my counterparts from Europe, the ability to deal with those in the UK who pose a risk. In United States and Canada to discuss what action we particular, it will allow the relocation of people subject can take together. There was firm support from all the to terrorism prevention and investigation measures to countries present for new action to share intelligence, other parts of the country. In addition, the Prime track the movement of terrorists and defeat the ideology Minister has announced funding of £130 million over that lies behind the threat. It is important that we now the next two years for the agencies, police and others, on deliver on those talks, and my officials, the Security top of the more than £500 million spent on counter- Minister and I will keep up the pace—in particular terrorism policing every year. when it comes to passenger name records—with other This Government have done more to confront the European member states. ideology that lies behind the threat we face. I have On Monday, the Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary excluded more foreign hate preachers than any Home and I held a security meeting with senior officials to Secretary before me; we have deported Abu Qatada and review the Paris attacks and the risks to the UK of a extradited Abu Hamza; we have reformed the Prevent similar attack. Of course, we have long had detailed strategy so that it tackles non-violent extremism as well plans for dealing with these kinds of attacks. The House as violent extremism; and we have invested more time, will recall the attacks in Mumbai in 2008 when terrorists resources and money in counter-narrative operations. armed with assault weapons and explosives took the We have always been clear that the police and the lives of more than 150 people. Since 2010, and learning security agencies must have the capabilities and powers the lessons of that attack, we have improved our police they need to do their job, and following the attacks in firearms capability and the speed of our military response, Paris the Prime Minister has reiterated that commitment. and we have enhanced protective security where possible Unfortunately, when it comes to communications data 871 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 872

[Mrs Theresa May] before coming into the House. I hope that she can set out what the reasons were and what has changed in the and the intercept of communications, there is no cross-party Home Office’s position this morning that meant that consensus and therefore no Parliamentary majority to the statement was changed at late notice. pass the legislation to give the police and security services I welcome the action taken by the intelligence agencies the capabilities they need. Let me be absolutely clear: and police to support their counterparts in Paris. I every day that passes without the proposals in the draft think the whole House will want to pay tribute to the Communications Data Bill, the capabilities of the people work of our security and intelligence services and the who keep us safe diminish; and as those capabilities counter-terror police, who do so much to keep us safe. It diminish, more people find themselves in danger and— is important that they have the resources they need, and yes—crimes will go unpunished and innocent lives will I welcome the resources that the Home Secretary be put at risk. mentioned. This is not, as I have heard it said, “letting the As the Home Secretary said, the Government have Government snoop on your e-mails”. It is allowing the going through Parliament right now the Counter-Terrorism police and the security services, under a tightly regulated and Security Bill, which we have supported and continue and controlled regime, to find out the who, where, when to support, and which includes restoring the relocation and how of a communication but not its content, so powers for serious terror suspects that she abolished that they can prove and disprove alibis, identify associations four years ago and for whose reinstatement we have between suspects, and tie suspects and victims to specific called. She will know that the agencies have pointed to locations. It is too soon to say for certain, but it is highly the ongoing threat in this country posed by the estimated probable that communications data were used in the 300 people returning from the conflict in Syria. Have Paris attacks to locate the suspects and establish the any of those estimated 300 been prosecuted? Can she links between the two attacks. Quite simply, if we want confirm that none of them is currently subject to terrorism the police and the security services to protect the public prevention and investigation measures, even though and save lives, they need this capability. these powers are supposed to be for dangerous suspects Last weekend people of all nationalities, faiths and whose activity needs to be restricted to keep us safe? backgrounds came out on to the streets of France and Are the Security Service and the police now reviewing other countries to demonstrate their opposition to terror, all those cases to see whether TPIMs could help, especially and to stand for democracy and freedom. We must with relocation powers restored, or whether there needs stand in solidarity with them, and do all that we can to to be any further change to the TPIMs powers, which confront extremism and terrorism in all its forms. are different from the previous control orders? How many of the estimated 300 have engaged with the Channel programme? Does she agree that we should now make 12.43 pm that compulsory for those returning, for which the Bill Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) does not yet provide? (Lab): The attacks last week in Paris demonstrated the On access to dangerous weapons, the Home Secretary savagery with which terrorists seek to divide us. The will know that there has been concern about reduced murderous intolerance and the bigotry that they pursue customs and border checks. What action is she taking aim to spread fear and also to sow division, which they to increase border checks for dangerous weapons? believe exists—us against them. Paris has not let the terrorists win and we must not do so either. The Home Secretary raised the issue of communications data. Technology is changing all the time, and that The French police have been praised for the actions means that the law needs to keep up, in the capabilities that they took. Charlie Hebdo is being published today. of the agencies to get the vital intelligence we need and Faiths have united, abhorring the anti-Semitism and in the oversight that we need. In July, Parliament supported grieving for the victims of the attack on the kosher emergency legislation to ensure that the agencies and supermarket. Muslims across the world have condemned police could maintain vital capabilities. This month, the an attack which is not Islamic and is not in the name of Commons supported extending those powers to ensure their religion, and the brother of the French Muslim that IP addresses are covered in the same way as telephone police officer, Ahmed Merabet, said, “My brother was numbers. In July, all parties agreed to support a review killed by people who pretend to be Muslims. They are by David Anderson, the independent reviewer of terrorism, terrorists. That’s it.” The Leader of the Opposition into the powers and the oversight needed to keep up rightly attended the unity rally in Paris along with the with changing technology. Prime Minister, and on Saturday I joined people in Trafalgar square raising pens in solidarity with the “Je The Home Secretary referred to the draft suis Charlie” cause. Communications Data Bill. That was rejected three years ago by the Joint Committee that the Government In the attack, the terrorists targeted other peaceful established to scrutinise it because, the Committee said, religions, they targeted writers, and they targeted those it was too vague, too widely drawn, and put too much whose job it is to keep us safe. In other words, they power directly in the hands of the Home Secretary. The targeted both liberty and security, and the response of Committee recommended that the new legislation needed democratic Governments everywhere to these sorts of should be drawn up in a far more limited way, and that attacks must be to defend both. Governments need to the Government should provide more evidence and keep our people safe so that we can enjoy the very clarity about what they wanted to achieve. Since then, freedoms that our democracy depends on. the Home Secretary has not come forward with any Let me turn to the specific issues in the Home Secretary’s revised proposals. She has not come to me to discuss statement. I am concerned about the rushed way that such proposals or put them to Parliament, even though she has made this statement today; I did not see it we have said that we were happy to discuss details with 873 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 874 her. Given the urgency she says there now is, why did in my statement, that we have in any way side-tracked it. she not come forward with revised proposals after the David Anderson is doing his work. As far as I am conclusions of the Joint Committee three years ago? aware, he is undertaking discussions with relevant parties In July, the Home Secretary was happy to agree to the about the issues that he is looking at. Alongside that, statutory review by David Anderson, which is due to our own Intelligence and Security Committee is conducting report before the election. Today she has not mentioned its work on questions of privacy, civil liberties and that review. Has she now discarded it, or will she be security. I think that those key reviews will be brought waiting for its conclusions? before the House in time to enable it to take account of This is an extremely important issue, and the detail— them when it does the necessary job of looking at least about the powers and capabilities that our intelligence at the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014, agencies need, as well as about the safeguards and which is under a sunset clause to 2016. The House will oversight that are also needed—matters. We agree that obviously want to take account of all aspects of those the police and the agencies need to get the intelligence two reviews. to keep us safe and that they need updated legislation, The Government publish the number of people under and we also need safeguards and stronger oversight to TPIMs every quarter. On the question of whether somebody make sure that powers are effectively and appropriately should be put on a TPIM, it is for the Security Service used. to initiate a request to me as Home Secretary. I of I strongly caution the Home Secretary and the Liberal course look at the request, and if I agree to it, a court Democrats against setting up a caricatured argument process is then gone through to ensure that such a between them about security on the one hand and decision is reasonable. As I say, it is for the Security liberty on the other, because we need to protect both in Service to come forward with any such proposals. our democracy and we need a responsible debate on The right hon. Lady asked about making Channel getting the detail right. The terrorists targeted both compulsory, and the Leader of the Opposition raised writers and police officers on that first day. The editor that during Prime Minister’s questions. We believe that of Charlie Hebdo had police protection to protect his Channel does important work, as does Prevent, which freedom of speech. That shows the strong link between works with community groups. Decisions about whether our security and our liberty in any democracy. individuals are put on a Channel programme should be We know that the most important thing to keep us taken case by case. We are very clear, as we have been in safe in any democracy is making sure that we have the discussions on the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill cohesive communities that can prevent hatred from in relation to temporary exclusion orders—they will spreading. We have supported extending Prevent by ensure that people return from Syria on our terms, putting it on to a statutory footing. I hope that the where that is appropriate—that we may seek to take Home Secretary will now listen to the concerns we have action of various sorts in relation to individuals in the expressed over some years about more needing to be UK, but that what is appropriate for the individual done to have community-led programmes to tackle the concerned has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. hatred and to challenge the spread of extremism, including through social media, as well as in local communities On the question of firearms, it is for us to work with and organisations. I hope that she will work with local others in the European Union to consider the spread of government to that effect. Is she working with the firearms across European Union. As I said, the United Community Security Trust on tackling anti-Semitism, Kingdom has some of the toughest gun laws, but major because we need to tackle all forms of extremism? exercises have already been undertaken, primarily led by the National Crime Agency, to look at the availability Terrorists try to silence us, to cow us and to divide us. of firearms in the UK. That process started before the Paris has shown, as millions marched and as we stood terrible attacks took place in Paris. in solidarity with them, that we will not be silenced, and that we will not give into fear and into division as we On the draft Communications Data Bill, there is a defend our democracy. Although some were targeted in difference of opinion among parties in the House about Paris, we know that this is about all of us: “Je suis juif”, what powers should be taken by Government. We did in “Je suis flic”, “Je suis Ahmed” and “Je suis Charlie”. fact respond to the proposals from the Joint Committee, and we did in fact provide revised proposals in relation Mrs May: First, I apologise to the shadow Home to the measures. I am clear, as is the Prime Minister, Secretary for her late receipt of the statement. I apologised that we need to return to that issue. I believe that it is to her privately when we came into the Chamber, but I important to have the right powers available to deal am happy to reiterate that apology on the Floor of the with such matters. House. Finally, the right hon. Lady asked whether we speak I join the right hon. Lady in paying tribute to our to those at the CST. Of course we do so regularly. I have counter-terrorist police—and, indeed, all our police—and had a number of meetings with them, and the police of our security and intelligence agencies. We cannot say course have meetings with them to discuss the whole often enough that these people are working day and question of what protective security is available. Protective night to keep us safe and to protect us. For obvious security was stepped up when the threat level was raised, reasons, as members of our security and intelligence but it has now been stepped up further. agencies, many of them are unseen and unknown. We are grateful to them for the work they do, and we should publicly recognise their important role. Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): Various The right hon. Lady asked a number of questions press reports have stated that the director general of covering a number of issues. On reviews, there is no MI5 called in his speech of 8 January for wide new suggestion, simply because a review was not mentioned powers of surveillance for the agencies. Will the Home 875 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 876

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind] would cause huge problems for anyone who relies on secure online transactions for banking, shopping or Secretary confirm that that is not correct? In the speech, anything else, and would jeopardise Britain’s reputation which my right hon. Friend and I attended in person, as a good and safe place to do business. Is that genuinely the director general expressed his main concern: what the Home Secretary wants to do? Does she really “Changes in the technology that people are using to communicate want to join the small group of countries that includes are making it harder for the Agencies to maintain the capability Iran, Belarus, Moldova and Kazakhstan in trying to to intercept the communications of terrorists.” ban encryption? Is not the prime requirement at present to ensure that the agencies can continue to exercise the capability they Mrs May: I say to my hon. Friend that we are have enjoyed for a number of years but which, because determined that, as far as is possible, there should be no of new technology, is increasingly denied them? safe spaces for terrorists to communicate. The Prime Minister reiterated that principle in Prime Minister’s Mrs May: My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely questions today. I would have hoped that that principle correct in his description of what the director general of was held by everybody across all parties in the House of MI5 said in the speech. It is unfortunate that people Commons. As far as I and the Conservative party are very often mix up some of the aspects of communications concerned, our manifesto will make it clear that we will data and intercepts, and sometimes believe that the introduce the legislation that is needed to restore our Government were trying, in the draft Communications declining communications data capability, and that we Data Bill, to expand the powers of the agencies, which will use all the legal powers that are available to ensure was not the case. Indeed, the director general of MI5 that, where appropriate, the police and the security and said: intelligence agencies have the maximum ability to intercept “The ability to access communications data is likewise vital to the communications of suspects, while ensuring that our ability to protect our national security”, such intrusive techniques are, of course, properly overseen. and that Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Of course the security “unless we maintain this capability, our ability to protect the services must have the necessary tools for the job. However, country will be eroded.” does the Home Secretary accept that the priority now is The Bill was about maintaining that capability, and we to speak up against, stand up against and, where necessary, and others, as evidenced by the quote, see that as so confront Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, racism and the important. fascist groups, such as the British National party and its derivatives, that spread such poison, as well as the vile Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): As there has been prejudices of far too many representatives and members a revolution in communications in the 16 years since I of UKIP? introduced the proposals that became the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, it seems to me to be Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely beyond argument that the legislation, including in respect right that everybody in this House needs to send a very of communications data, has to be revised. Does the clear message that we stand for freedom, including the Home Secretary agree that a serious debate about freedom of the press, and democracy, and that we the extent of the powers is not remotely helped by the oppose the vile views that lead to the behaviour and parody that states that the powers sought are “some incidents we saw in Paris. We must recognise that we kind of snoopers charter”? Since I believe that the have seen a number of terrorist attacks in this country distance between the two main parties in the House on over the years, the most recent of which was in 2013, this issue is actually very narrow, may we have the kind when we saw not only Fusilier Lee Rigby’s murder, but of close collaboration that my right hon. Friend the the murder of Mohammed Saleem and the attempt to shadow Home Secretary spoke in favour of so that we plant a number of bombs at mosques in the west can resolve this issue as soon as possible, and ensure midlands, which were undertaken by a far-right extremist. that the intelligence and security agencies and the police We must stand against terrorism and extremism in all have the capabilities today and tomorrow that they had their forms. in the past under legislation freely agreed by this House? Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): If one good Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely thing has come out of the horrible events of recent right that it is important, in the debate on this issue, days, it is the evidence of the British people’s affection that the facts and arguments are presented properly. for France in her hour of trial. Speaking as the chairman Sadly, the terminology that has been used about the of the amitié group between the two Parliaments and communications data Bill, such as its being a snoopers on behalf of our Back Benchers, I would like to extend charter, has set all sorts of hares running that are not the warmest fraternal greetings to our French colleagues accurate and that do not reflect what was proposed. He in the Assemblée Nationale, express our support for is right that it is important for all of us in this House to them and say that, as has been the case for the last look at this matter calmly and carefully, and to consider 100 years, our two nations stand shoulder to shoulder the powers that our agencies need if they are to maintain against tyranny and terror. their capabilities. Otherwise, as those capabilities degrade, it makes it harder for our agencies to keep us safe. Mrs May: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend’s comments. We stand alongside France against terror Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Prime and for freedom and democracy. It was a very moving Minister made a proposal not to allow any online experience to be part of the march in Paris on Sunday communications that could not be intercepted. That not only because it involved so many people—nearly 877 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 878

4 million people across France and an estimated 2 million hospitals, major railway stations and major tourist in Paris—but because of the reaction of the people attractions that may very well be the premier targets of alongside the march, who constantly expressed their terrorism? support for all those who were standing for freedom of the press and the freedoms of our democracy. Mrs May: A great deal of work has been undertaken in recent years to look at the operation of the emergency Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): On behalf of the services in the event of a terrorist attack. Work has been Scottish National party, I join the Home Secretary, the done, as I indicated in my statement, to bring together shadow Home Secretary and Members from all parts of specialist teams from fire services, ambulance services the House in their condemnation of the terrorist attacks and the police across England and their equivalents in in Paris. I also want to put on the record our appreciation Scotland and Wales. We have also introduced the joint for those who work so hard on our behalf to keep our emergency services interoperability programme, or JESIP, society safe. which is about ensuring that it is easier for the three emergency services to work together in such circumstances. The Home Secretary went into great detail in her Obviously, we continue to update and revise, where statement about the co-operation with European Union necessary, the protocols and the way in which such partners and other countries, which was very welcome. operations are conducted to ensure that our emergency She did not have the opportunity to update the House services are able to do the job we all want them to do, on the co-operation with the other jurisdictions within should an attack take place. the United Kingdoms on policing and safety, which is very important for all of us. No doubt she has spoken Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I sat on to the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Michael the Joint Committee on the Draft Communications Matheson, since last week. Will she update the House Data Bill three years ago, which lasted for six months. on what was discussed and on how the UK Government We heard extensive evidence from numerous sources plan to co-operate with the Scottish Government, the that made it abundantly clear that having the Northern Irish Government and the Welsh Administration? communications data is crucial and will save lives. It will save those who threaten suicide, it will save children Mrs May: Discussions have taken place at official at risk and it will prevent other incidents, dramas, level with the devolved Administrations about the accidents and crimes, as well as helping us to catch preparedness for an attack similar to that in Paris. terrorists. Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan Obviously we work very closely with the devolved Police Commissioner, has said that it will save lives. The Administrations. We worked particularly closely with director of Europol said at the Home Affairs Committee the Scottish Government last year in preparation for yesterday that there was a gap. Is the— the Commonwealth games, when we had some joint exercises. The co-operation and interaction between Mr Speaker: Order. I do not wish to be unkind to the Police Scotland and the police forces in England and hon. Gentleman, but he is a trained barrister. Come on, Wales is very good across a wide range of matters. cut to the chase. A lot of colleagues want to get in and I Co-operation on the matters that we are discussing is want to accommodate everybody. Ask a short question obviously very important. We will continue to talk with and then sit down. the devolved Administrations at every level—ministerial and official—about these matters. Michael Ellis: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Is the Home Secretary concerned that the Labour party Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): has not made it clear that it would support the collection Is the Home Secretary aware that when the Prophet of communications data? Mohammed moved from Mecca to Medina all those years ago to establish the first Islamic state, he did not Mrs May: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing set up a sectarian caliphate, such as that demanded by out that a significant number of people who are in the Paris murderers, but rather, under the charter of positions where they are aware of the impact of Medina, he created a multi-faith society, where Jews communications data have made the necessity of and Christians had the right to worship and were able communications data well known and public. As I to proclaim their faiths? indicated earlier, I hope that everybody in the House understands and appreciates the importance of ensuring that, as far as is possible, there are no safe spaces for Mrs May: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for elucidating terrorists to communicate. that fact for the House. It is very clear—everybody is very clear—that the attacks were not about Islam. The Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The Home voices of Muslim communities and Muslim leaders in Secretary will be aware that in the cases of the London the United Kingdom, France and across the world have bombings, the brutal murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby and, made it very clear that the attacks were not undertaken according to early reports, what happened in Paris last in their name. We should reiterate that very clear message. week, those involved were on the periphery of investigations that had already been undertaken. Will she give a Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Is the commitment that she will have urgent talks with the Home Secretary satisfied with the capacity of the London Security Service and the leadership of counter-terrorism fire and rescue service to respond to any terrorist outrages police about how we can get smarter in reviewing the that may occur, in view of the current fire station previous investigations and cases in which those individuals closure programme, which includes the fire station at and networks, who clearly pose a threat, have appeared Clerkenwell, which serves an area that includes major on the periphery? 879 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 880

Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman is correct about will ask a short question without preamble. I feel sure those who appear on the periphery of investigations. that the Home Secretary will provide us with her The Intelligence and Security Committee referred to characteristically pithy replies. that in its report on the murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby in Woolwich, and I have already had discussions about it Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The with counter-terrorism police and the security services unwise response of previous Governments to outrages and continue to talk to them about it. We need to such as 9/11 and 7/7 led to the Iraq war and the continue to look at a number of issues involving those introduction of the failed identity cards scheme. Does who appear at the periphery of various groups, and at the Home Secretary agree that our response to this the links between potential terrorists and criminal activity outrage must be one of sober wisdom, not a rush to of various sorts. squander British liberties because of those who wish so violently to take them away from us anyway? Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Mrs May: It is entirely right that we should respond May I add my voice to those supporting the updating of in a careful and sober way, and that is precisely what I our communications data capability merely to keep and the Prime Minister have done in the comments that pace with changes in technology, so that we maintain we have made. the capabilities that we have? May I also invite the Home Secretary to use this latest incident as a case Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) study to establish what the journey is that a good (Lab): I am sure the whole House was pleased to hear Islamic person may take that finishes with them being a the Home Secretary say that real Islam had absolutely terrorist—what is the psychological journey, what are nothing to do with the attacks in Paris. Will she take the the stimulants that create that terrorist, and how do we opportunity to decry the statement that Rupert Murdoch get inside that process to prevent it from happening? made at the weekend that all Muslims were to blame, and to ask him to get a grip of Fox News and its Mrs May: It is of course important that in our work so-called terrorism experts, who set about insulting to prevent people from moving down the road to terrorist Birmingham, London and everywhere else with their activity and from being radicalised we look at the silly comments? factors in play when somebody becomes a terrorist or is Mrs May: I agree with the hon. Lady that it is radicalised. Those issues are already examined, and important that we reiterate the message that this is not every opportunity is taken to learn lessons and identify about Islam; it is about a perversion of Islam. There are what the journey is for individuals, so that we can better Muslims in this country and other countries around the ensure that we are able to prevent radicalisation and world who condemn these acts of violence and terrorism, prevent people from moving into terrorism. However, and their voices are being heard in increasing numbers. that will be complex, and many factors will be involved, As I said, they are sending a clear message that this is which will vary from individual to individual. not in their name. I also say to the hon. Lady that freedom of the press means freedom of the press. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): In his evidence at Westminster yesterday, the director of Europol spoke of Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): Purveyors of extremism a security gap among police forces across Europe in find fertile ground in communities that are not properly trying to track down online terrorists. Terrorism has no assimilated into the mainstream of society. Bearing that national boundaries. Is the Home Secretary confident in mind, will the Home Secretary consider supporting about the structures that currently exist for the sharing the introduction of parts on compulsory written and of information across Europe, and indeed across the spoken English into the British citizenship test? I believe Atlantic? What further action can the internet companies that shared values and a shared language underpin a take? Should we not now consider having an organisation strong society, and particularly that if women in such similar to the Internet Watch Foundation to deal specifically communities were emancipated, they would help pacify with counter-terrorism? young men who might be tempted to copy the extremist behaviour seen so graphically in Paris last week. Mrs May: We discussed sharing intelligence and information between countries when it is appropriate to Mrs May: The Government have of course increased do so, and particularly across Europe, at the meeting the requirements for those coming into the United convened by Monsieur Cazeneuve, the French Interior Kingdom to be able to speak and understand English. Minister, on Sunday. People have looked to Europol to My hon. Friend mentions the role of women, and I play a role in that, and of course we will work not only share his view that it is important that we hear female with other countries but with organisations such as voices from the Muslim community. I commend Sara Europol to ensure that we get the maximum benefit Khan, who has once again stood up and spoken about from the information sharing that takes place. That will that issue. In the latter part of last year I attended an mean that we have the maximum possible ability to inspirational event that she held as part of the identify terrorists in advance and ensure that attacks do #MakingAStand campaign that she was running with not take place. Muslim women around the country, saying that they wished to take a stand against those who were trying to radicalise young people in the Muslim community. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): Mr Speaker: Order. I am very keen to accommodate Will the Home Secretary join me in rejecting the new colleagues, but I remind the House that this is an imperialism that we hear after incidents such as this, Opposition day, with two well-subscribed debates to which seeks to condemn the killings but somehow excuse come, so what I am looking for now is Members who the actions by blaming ourselves—in this case by saying 881 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 882 that the cartoons in Charlie Hebdo were somehow there are people of a variety of faiths and of no faith. unnecessarily provocative? Does she not agree that we We must all accept people of different faiths, and recognise cannot continue to absolve those engaged in terrorism that people have different beliefs. If we disagree with of their responsibility, and that we must agree that them, the way to deal with that is through discussion. It responsibility for those actions lies squarely with those is important to allow people the freedom to worship as who kill innocent people? they wish and follow the faith they wish to follow.

Mrs May: The only people responsible for a terrorist Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): The unjustifiable attack are the terrorists themselves. They are criminals, and horrific scenes in Paris were not just an attack on and we should never let anybody forget that. France, but an attack on peace, freedom and Islam. This is not a clash of civilisations: it is a straight fight Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I between right and wrong, and between humanity and welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement, particularly insanity. On that basis, I urge caution from the Home the words about tackling extreme ideology. May I ask Secretary because the worst time to react is when things her and the security services to be mindful of places of are raw, and we cannot defeat extremism with extreme worship where mainstream, tolerant and open opinion reactions. Finally, the true Muslim on that day was the can often be marginalised, creating a vacuum in which policeman, Ahmed, who lost his life protecting the extremism thrives and creates the roots of so much freedom of a publication to ridicule his faith. In his poisonous ideology? tragic story we see the obvious truth: freedom is the right to be wrong; it is never the right to do wrong. Mrs May: I share my hon. Friend’s concern to ensure that we deal with extremism in all its forms and wherever Mrs May: I commend the hon. Gentleman’s comments. it appears, and we are mindful of the issue that he As the shadow Home Secretary pointed out, the brother raises. Of course, the Government will in due course of the policeman who was murdered gave a very dignified publish a new extremism strategy, which will go beyond response that we can all recognise and support. It is the counter-terrorism strategy that we have already important to recognise that the people who carry out published. these attacks are criminals and terrorists, and are not acting in the name of any religion. We should be very Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): clear about the message we give. The acts in Paris were carried out by terrorists, not in my name or that of the religion that I follow. I want to put the record straight on that. These people are totally Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): On intelligence and unreservedly condemned for the attacks. data gaps, will the Home Secretary confirm that she will be inspired by the patriotism of Lord Evans and people After the Joint Committee on the draft Data such as the head of MI5, and avoid any consultation on Communications Bill objected to the original Bill, the such issues with the Deputy Prime Minister, who during Home Secretary said that she would make proposals. his “Today”programme interview put party so disgracefully What are they, where are they, and when will we see over national security? them?

Mrs May: I commend the hon. Gentleman for his Mrs May: It is no surprise to anyone in the House comments. It is important that someone such as him that the Deputy Prime Minister and I have a different stands up in this Chamber and gives a clear message opinion on communications data and the Communications about terrorism, and says that none of us supports Data Bill. I believe it is important that we maintain terrorism and that we condemn it absolutely. At the those capabilities, and I reiterate that the Bill is not a time we indicated the areas of the Communications snoopers charter. Data Bill where we were willing to make changes in response to the views from the Joint Committee—indeed, Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) we said that we were taking on board virtually all the (Lab): Does the Home Secretary agree that while there comments made by that Committee. cannot be a scintilla of an excuse for the psychopathic slaughter that we saw in Paris last week, and that Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Does the Home security measures must be paramount, in the long run Secretary agree that if we are to be serious about our one thing that will make us safe is to reach out to internal security and the safety and security of our marginalised communities in this country that mirror borders, including at Dover, we must promote the unity those from which the killers came? We must ensure, of integration over the division of multiculturalism? It whether by addressing education or employment, that is important to ensure that our borders are properly those communities cannot become fishing grounds for strengthened and that security is maintained, including people who pedal violence, hatred, and nihilism. at Calais. Mrs May: As I indicated earlier, the reasons why Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right, and as I indicated people become radicalised are various and often complex, in my statement in immediate response to the attacks in and it is important that we try to understand those Paris, the Border Force and others at our borders took reasons. It is also important that in any community in appropriate steps to increase security and intensify the our country we look at the issues that matter to people. checks taking place. It is right that we maintain an For everybody around the country, those are things appropriate level of security at our borders, both in the such as the availability of jobs and the education and UK but also at juxtaposed controls elsewhere. It is also public services they receive, and we consider those important to recognise that within the United Kingdom matters for everybody. 883 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 884

Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): As well as a supported areas are eligible for funding for Prevent substantial Muslim community, which has been quick projects. Since early 2012, local projects have reached to condemn the atrocities in Paris, Worcester hosts more than 45,000 people. This is an extensive piece of the longest continuously running newspaper in the work, and we continually look at Prevent and consider English language, and the tomb of King John, whose how we can help it to do its job better, hence the unwilling but lasting legacy of the Magna Carta will be statutory duty in the Counter-terrorism and Security commemorated this year. Does the Home Secretary Bill. agree that the survival of that charter over 800 years, and recent events, demonstrates that the pen, if properly Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): On Monday, defended, can be mightier than the sword? the Leader of the House and I met parents and governors Mrs May: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, and to his at the Mathilda Marks-Kennedy and Beit Shvidler schools constituency and its links with the Magna Carta. That in my constituency, and during our discussion the attacks was an important document, and it is right to celebrate in Paris were raised. Will the Home Secretary take the its anniversary this year. We all recognise the importance opportunity to allay the fears of some of those parents, of the words in that document, and the fact that it and and indeed many other people who were not at the its principles have survived over the centuries is testament meeting, about the rise in anti-Semitic attacks, and say to that. In response to the attacks and murders of the how we can keep those children safe while in school? cartoonists and journalists at Charlie Hebdo, everybody must make clear that the pen is mightier than the sword. Mrs May: This is very important. As I indicated earlier, I have met the CST and other Jewish community Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will leaders on a number of occasions. My last meeting with the Secretary of State agree that the lessons of Paris are them was shortly before the Christmas recess. We are that our real strength is in unity and fraternity? We committed to ensuring that the work of the trust and should keep together on this; there is no big political others, in keeping Jewish communities safe, is supported. divide. We must keep together across the parties, and As I also indicated earlier, the police talk with the CST have a dialogue and conversation with the vast majority and others, and indeed with individual institutions, of Muslim people in this country who are law abiding about what protective security can be provided. As I and want to help us to defeat terrorism. understand it, they have been providing extra patrols in Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the certain areas to ensure that greater support is given. I majority of Muslims living in this country want to am very clear that nobody should feel that they are defeat terrorism and ensure that they play their full part likely to be subject to the sort of anti-Semitic attacks in our society, and it is right that we make every link we that, sadly, we have seen too many of in the United can with them in doing that. Kingdom in the past year. It is very important that people are able to live in this country, follow their faith Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con): News organisations and live a life free from fear. must use their independent professional judgment as to whether they reprint the cartoons of Charlie Hebdo. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Last week, Although in their own eyes, many were avoiding the risk while gunmen were rampaging through the streets of of offending some of their readers, in the eyes of the Paris, a leading Muslim spokesman in Northern Ireland, jihadis, some were undoubtedly viewed as being intimidated Dr Al-Wazzan, was telling the BBC that the west had into censorship, which to me was reason enough to brought this on itself through its foreign policy. He later reprint. Does my right hon. Friend agree that true free withdrew those remarks under pressure. Will the Home speech, not just the illusion of it, includes the right to Secretary join me in calling for all those who have insult and offend? We do not defend free speech, if that leadership in the Muslim community to say and do is truly what we want to do, by casting aside those who nothing that would give any justification for people to push at its boundaries. believe that terrorism in the name of their faith is ever Mrs May: I absolutely agree. Freedom of the press justified, and to realise that such words only breed and means that the press should be free to publish what it create division? chooses within the law. As the Prime Minister reiterated earlier, freedom of the press, which we all believe in, Mrs May: It is absolutely right that it is important for means that we should accept that it can publish what it those in leadership roles in the Muslim community to wishes to publish within the law, and we should not set make it very clear, as many have been doing, that these artificial boundaries on that. terrorist attacks are not about their religion and their faith and are not in their name. It is very important to Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ send a very clear message that the only people responsible Co-op): Will the Home Secretary update the House on for terrorist attacks are the terrorists themselves. how well the Prevent strategy is working in reaching people at the grass roots who work with young people? Whatever the House does, quite rightly, to protect people’s Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Interception of primary civil liberty—that of life and limb—through communications data is critical to successful counter- new legislation, the security services cannot be everywhere terrorism. If the Liberal Democrats will not support and that network on the ground is most important. what is needed for the defence of our nation, will my right hon. Friend confirm that necessary legislation to Mrs May: I am happy to give the hon. Lady some fill capabilities gaps will feature in the Conservative figures on Prevent. Thirty local authority areas are manifesto and will be taken forward as soon as possible currently classified as Prevent priority areas, and 14 more in the next Parliament? 885 Terrorist Attacks (Paris)14 JANUARY 2015 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 886

Mrs May: I am very happy to give that confirmation Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Like a couple to my hon. Friend. We are very clear that we will take of earlier speakers, in 2012 I was a member of the Joint that legislation forward. Committee considering the draft Communications Data Bill. The Committee supported the need for new legislation, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There has been a but proposed a number of safeguards that we thought significant rise in co-ordinated anti-Semitic attacks in would improve the Bill. Will my right hon. Friend London, Glasgow, Belfast and Cardiff. Will the Home confirm that in any future legislation those safeguards Secretary indicate what steps have been taken to co-ordinate would be considered and, hopefully, included? action to stop attacks on Israeli and Jewish people and property across the whole of the United Kingdom of Mrs May: I am very happy to confirm that. The Joint Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Committee came back with a very well-considered and detailed response, and the Government were clear that Mrs May: As I have indicated, I have had a number we would take on board most of its recommendations. of meetings and the police have been meeting Jewish That continues to be my view as Home Secretary and as communities, representative groups and the CST, with a Conservative politician looking at the prospect of a the role it plays in providing protective security for Conservative Government introducing that legislation. synagogues, Jewish schools and so on. We have also looked at a number of other aspects. I had a meeting Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): recently, involving the Director of Public Prosecutions The Home Secretary referred to the capabilities of the and the chief executive of the College of Policing, to people keeping us safe diminishing. In the context of look at the advice and guidance available to ensure that the security of the people of the entirety of the United the police and the prosecution service respond properly Kingdom, how central does she think the National when anti-Semitic attacks are undertaken and that, Crime Agency is and how important it is that it is fully where prosecution is possible, it is taken forward. operational in all of the United Kingdom, particularly in Northern Ireland?

Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Mrs May: I believe that the NCA does play an The Government’s taskforce on tackling radicalism and important role. Obviously, its clear focus is on serious extremism, chaired by the Prime Minister, recommended and organised crime, but it is also focused on economic in 2013 a new banning order for groups that fall short of crime, border crime, child exploitation and online protection. being legally termed “terrorist” but which undermine It is a valuable agency. In the operations it has undertaken, democracy, and a new civil power to target those who it has already shown the benefit of having set it up. I radicalise others. Will the Home Secretary confirm consider that it would be appropriate and beneficial if it whether those measures are excluded from the Counter- were possible for the agency to operate in Northern Terrorism and Security Bill and whether that is because Ireland, as it does in other parts of the United Kingdom. they have been blocked by the Liberal Democrats? If so, given the comments of the shadow Home Secretary and Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Not only is the the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), and number of anti-Semitic incidents on the rise, but surveys in the light of recent events in Paris, is there scope to demonstrate a greater public acceptance of anti-Semitic revisit the recommendations made by the Prime Minister’s attitudes. What further reassurance can my right hon. taskforce, as that would be most welcome? Friend offer to the Jewish community in particular that we will have zero tolerance of anti-Semitism? We need Mrs May: My hon. Friend raises these issues. I have to educate the public that such attitudes should not been very clear that it has not been possible to take exist in this country. those particular proposals forward on a Government basis, but I was also very clear—indeed, I said it in the Mrs May: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We speech I gave at our party conference last year—that it should be very clear that we will not tolerate anti-Semitism. is the Conservative party’s intention to take them forward. We can deal with this in a number of ways. First, it is important that we provide support and advice on protective Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) security for those who may be at threat of being subject (Lab): The Prevent strategy is key to preventing to anti-Semitic incidents. It is also very important for us radicalisation. Given the new roles and responsibilities to give a clear message, as a Government and from this of schools, colleges and universities, will the Home House, that we will not accept anti-Semitic incidents. Secretary state what proportion of the 2015-16 budget The work led by the Department for Communities and will be allocated to those organisations to implement Local Government in the taskforce it has brought together that? What training and support is being provided to on anti-Semitism plays an important role in that. principals? Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I was previously on Mrs May: The Home Office funding for Prevent has the civil libertarian side of these arguments, but given increased in recent years, but further money will be recent events—not just in France, but elsewhere—I have made available, as part of the £130 million that the come to the conclusion that the Home Secretary is Prime Minister announced in November, in 2014-15 absolutely right. and 2015-16. The majority of that will be for agencies, Returning to the subject of the Jewish community, but other funding will be for the Home Office, including the Home Secretary will have seen the front page of The funding for Prevent. It will also include funding for Independent today, which shows that a huge number of counter-terrorism policing. Discussions are taking place Jewish people have real apprehension of living in the on how it will be most appropriately spent. United Kingdom. I welcome her words in response to 887 Terrorist Attacks (Paris) 14 JANUARY 2015 888

[Robert Halfon] Points of Order other Members, but will she make a statement not just 1.40 pm on anti-Semitism but about the positive contribution Jewish people bring to this country to ensure that they Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): On a point feel proud of living here? of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In Question Time earlier, I put some figures to the Prime Minister. I said Mrs May: I share my hon. Friend’s concerns. It that under the Government-endorsed “Shaping a Healthier should be a matter of deep concern to us all in this Future” programme, the number of in-patient beds at House when people from the Jewish community, as Charing Cross hospital would fall from 360 to 24. In surveys suggest, are feeling that it is less easy to live in response, the Prime Minister said that I was “spreading the United Kingdom. We have seen over the years disinformation”, that this was known to my neighbouring people leaving other countries in the European Union Members of Parliament and that I should “take the as a result of anti-Semitic incidents. I never thought we truth and put it in a leaflet”. I have checked last July’s would see the day when surveys showed this sort of clinical strategy for Imperial College healthcare trust. feeling by Jewish people here in the United Kingdom. It In that strategy, and in other places, my figures are is absolutely right not only that we are clear in our confirmed. Other papers also confirm that, as I stated, condemnation of anti-Semitism and that we give the the A and E department would move from Charing protective security and other support I have referred to, Cross to St Mary’s, Paddington. Seven of my neighbouring but that we send a very clear message that members of MPs and I have written to the Secretary of State on the Jewish community play an important and significant these matters. The Prime Minister is entitled not to role in our communities in their contributions to our answer my question, but he stated that my figures were society. We should welcome them here. We should applaud false. I wanted to put it on the record that they were not the contributions they make. We should ensure that false, but I also seek your advice, Madam Deputy they all feel able to stay living in the United Kingdom Speaker, on how I can get him to correct the record. and make their important contribution to our society. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Mr Slaughter, as I am sure you realise, the points you make are a continuation of the debate that started in Prime Minister’s Question Time, and you have now put on the record the clear point you wanted to get across. I am sure there is no advice I can give you that, being an experienced parliamentarian, you have not already thought of and will not be deploying in this Chamber to the best of your considerable abilities over the coming months.

Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a tradition and a courtesy of the House that when one Member visits another Member’s constituency, they give them prior notice. I anticipate a visit to my constituency early next week. When should that Member advise me that they will be visiting my constituency?

Madam Deputy Speaker: The convention is that the Member should be notified before the visit. Speaking from experience, sometimes it will be on the morning of the visit, although I think Members need a little more notice than that. However, it has to be before, and that is the convention. By the sound of it, the hon. Gentleman has some time to go yet, but I wish him luck in getting enough notice of what I am sure will be a splendid visit from whomever it is—I have no idea who it is. 889 14 JANUARY 2015 Voting (Civic Obligation) 890

Voting (Civic Obligation) many Conservative MPs were elected by less than 40% of the electorate. I will tell hon. Members: 86%. So no Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order lectures please from the Tories about people voting in No. 23) union elections! 1.43 pm It is sometimes argued that such a proposal as mine would be an infringement of civil liberties, but why? Do Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I beg to we not all have obligations? We all have to pay— move, fortunately—national and local taxes and, if we drive, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for a civic road tax. We cannot opt out, and we do not want obligation either to vote or to state an intention to abstain from anyone to opt out. Is that an infringement of civil voting; and for connected purposes. liberties? Children must be sent to school. They may be It is appropriate that I should be asking permission educated at home, if it satisfies the local authorities, but to introduce this measure following the exchanges on in the main children must go to school, and if parents terrorism, because our democracy will flourish long do not send their children to school, they will be rightly after the terrorists and their objectives have been decisively fined. We cannot drive a vehicle without taking a test. Is defeated. that an infringement of civil liberties? I am pleased to Despite what I am going to say, my proposed measure say—because I voted for it—that smoking is now banned will inevitably be described as compulsory voting. As I in public places, including pubs and clubs. Is that an shall point out, it is not my intention to force anyone to infringement of civil liberties? As the Home Secretary vote in an election; if there was such a proposal, I would said in exchanges a few moments ago, we cannot possess vote against it. I have, however, long advocated, with weapons without authorisation from the police. Why others, legislation for a civic obligation—a duty, if you should a civic obligation to vote, with the option to like—to vote at least in a general election. However, if abstain, be attacked on the grounds that our liberties my Bill became law, if anyone had no wish to vote, so be are somehow being undermined? it—all they would need do is let the electoral authorities In a number of democratic countries—not many, but know beforehand, and provide information about where they include Belgium and Luxembourg—there is a duty they live, proof and so on, or turn up on the day and tell to vote. I leave aside dictatorships, of course. In Australia, the clerk at the polling station that they do not intend to turnout in elections for the House of Representatives is vote, and that would be the end of it. There would be no 95%. Many years ago, in the last election there before martyrs, and no one would need to go to prison because the law was changed where everyone had a duty to they do not want to vote—of course, many people sadly vote—there is a small fine if people do not vote—that went to prison in this country and elsewhere because turnout was under 60%. However, in the first contest they wanted the right to vote. under the law that I would like to see applied in Britain, The excellent report from the Political and Constitutional the turnout was 91%— and it has never gone below Reform Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the 90%. I am not aware that Amnesty International or any Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), outlines other human rights group has put Australia on its list of the decline in voting over the years. I shall provide one authoritarian states. There are many aspects of Australian or two facts about the last election. More people did not politics today that I and my hon. Friends do not like, vote then than voted for any one political party contesting but the fact of the matter is that it is a democracy, just the election. If we add that figure to the number not like ours. Why should anyone take the view that my correctly registered, it adds up to more than voted for suggestion is unnecessary and arbitrary? the two main parties in the election, and certainly more Would it work here? I accept that if the law were than voted for the two parties forming the coalition. changed, it is possible that many people might say, “No, That should be a matter of serious concern to the we are not interested; we will not obey the law”. I think House, whether or not my proposal is accepted. it unlikely, and if it happened, we would obviously have The decline in voting should be a matter of concern to change the law again, but why not give it a try? Why to politicians and the country as a whole. If we want not use every opportunity to ensure that when we sit in our democracy to flourish and strengthen, surely common this place, we have the satisfaction of knowing that the sense dictates that we should do what we can to get far overwhelming majority of the people, whichever way more people participating in elections. I have been they voted, did vote in the general election. I strongly speaking about general elections, but far fewer people believe that the House of Commons should give serious of course vote in local elections. The turnout in the consideration to what I am proposing. I hope that in 2001 general election was just over 59%. Four years due course—I hope I will live long enough to see later, it rose to 61%, and last time, it increased to 65%, it—such a change in the law will happen. meaning that a large one third did not vote. In 2001, Question put and agreed to. there were 66 constituencies in which turnout was under Ordered, 50%. Four years later, that figure was 37. As we know, there is a gap between older people and 18 to 24-year-olds. That Mr David Winnick, Mr Graham Allen, Mr Ronnie At the last election, when the total turnout was 65%, Campbell, Mr Jim Cunningham, Geraint Davies, Mr Brian only 44% of 18 to 24-year-olds voted. There has also H. Donohoe, Mike Gapes, Meg Hillier, Jim McGovern, been a decline in the number of women voting. Grahame M. Morris and Mr Dave Watts present the I notice reports that the Conservative party wants to Bill. change the law on union elections to ensure that at least Mr David Winnick accordingly presented the Bill. 40% of those eligible have to vote for industrial action Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on in order for that action to be valid. One might ask how Friday 6 March, and to be printed (Bill 153). 891 14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 892

2013 says—at paragraph 2.25, for those hon. Members Opposition Day who have not yet found the time to read it. Let me remind Members of my exact words in a debate on [12TH ALLOTTED DAY] energy prices in April last year, when I said that Energy Prices “the Government should…intervene to require all suppliers to freeze their prices. As we have said many times before, that would not prevent companies from cutting prices, but it would stop Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): I them from increasing them.”—[Official Report, 2 April 2014; inform the House that Mr Speaker has not selected the Vol. 578, c. 892.] amendment. What could be clearer than that? I said the same in June 1.53 pm last year, too, when I urged the House to back a motion to give the regulator the power to cut prices when costs Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): I beg to move, fall, which Government Members defeated. Therefore, That this House notes the policy of the Opposition to freeze none of the energy companies and no hon. Members energy prices until 2017, ensuring that prices can fall but not rise; should be in any doubt about what we will do. and calls on the Government to bring forward fast-track legislation immediately to put a statutory duty on the energy regulator for Yes, we will freeze prices until 2017, so that bills can Great Britain to ensure that energy suppliers pass on price cuts to fall, not rise, and we will also give the regulator the consumers when wholesale costs fall, if suppliers fail to act. power to cut prices. Let me remind the House that the Last week, in a remarkable U-turn, the Chancellor purpose of our price freeze is not just to give us time to complained that energy companies were not passing on reform the energy market for the future, but—crucially—to falling wholesale costs. Of course, he did not say that he compensate consumers for the fall in wholesale prices in would actually do anything about it, but for the first 2009, which was never passed back to them. If anyone is time in nearly five years, he at least accepted there was a labouring under the illusion that the price freeze is, or problem. Now, it is time for him and all Government will be, an excuse for not cutting prices to reflect falls in Members to put their money where their mouths are, wholesale costs, let me disabuse of them of that idea because today’s motion is a very simple one. today. Wholesale prices have fallen substantially and over a sustained period. With the exception of those for people Robert Halfon: Under this Government, fuel duty with E.ON, which reduced its gas price by 3.5% yesterday, was not just frozen but cut, and the fuel escalator was consumer bills have not fallen. We think they should, got rid of. That means that in tax terms, the average and we want all consumers to see the full benefits of motorist is better off by 20p every time they fill up the reductions in wholesale costs. Today’s motion thus proposes family car, amounting to hundreds of pounds a year. that if energy companies refuse to cut their prices, the Given that this debate is about energy prices, why did Government should act by giving the regulator the the right hon. Lady and her party vote against all those power and a legal duty to force energy suppliers to cut measures? their prices when wholesale costs fall. Caroline Flint: On the average energy bill, gas and Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) rose— electricity have gone up by about £260 since 2010. I Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) rose— shall say a little more about who has been hardest hit by that. If we look at the poorest people in our communities, Caroline Flint: I will give way shortly. we find that their price rises have gone up substantially Before I set out my case, let me deal head-on with one more. On every occasion since I was given this job by issue raised by the Minister for Business and Enterprise, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I the right hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew have consistently raised concerns, as I think the hon. Hancock). He claims that the energy companies are Gentleman will appreciate, not only about wholesale refusing to pass on reductions in wholesale costs because cost falls not being passed on, but about the sharp of the prospect of an energy price freeze. Let me first practices going on in the sector, which need to be thank him for the vote of confidence in our prospects at attended to. the election and tell him he is right about one thing. I absolutely believe there will be a Labour Government in Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): My May and we will freeze energy prices until 2017. right hon. Friend will know that, like all regulators, the The substance of what that Minister says, like so energy regulator, Ofgem, has its functions set out in much he comes out with, bears no connection to reality statute—originally, I think, in the Gas Act 1986 and the for one simple reason. From the day we announced our Electricity Act 1989, as amended by subsequent legislation. price freeze, which, as I have said many times, would Its primary purpose is to protect the interests of the stop suppliers from increasing their prices without consumer. Consumers’ interests are not being protected preventing them from cutting them, we have been clear because that legislation does not allow the passing on of that the price freeze—[Interruption.] If Conservative the cost cuts that my right hon. Friend has highlighted. Back Benchers wait and listen to what I have to say, I Is that not precisely why we need to change the law? will provide the evidence of my words as they appeared in Hansard. Caroline Flint: I agree with my hon. Friend. Every From the day we announced the price freeze, we have time we have debated the powers of Ofgem, the regulator, been clear that it goes hand in hand with our reforms to we have been told that it has the powers, but is not using the energy market and the creation of a tough new them in a practical way to deal with the challenges and regulator with the power to cut prices when costs fall. problems that consumers face. I believe that, if we make That is what the Green Paper we published in November laws in this place, it is essential for us to make laws that 893 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 894 make sense and are clear—what is on the tin should be and November last year, and that wholesale electricity what is in the tin—and to ensure that those laws are prices had fallen by 9%. Those figures relate to the enforced. day-ahead market. Platts, one of the price reporting agencies, thinks that the fall has been even more substantial: Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): What my its estimates suggest that gas prices fell by 26% last year. right hon. Friend is saying about the energy companies On the forward market, in which energy companies are is absolutely right. We need to intervene, as we do in the buying and selling energy ahead of time, the fall has case of the fuel companies. Notwithstanding what was been bigger still, with gas prices falling by as much as said by the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), 30%. not only are the fuel companies not passing on price There can be no doubt that the wholesale prices of cuts at the pumps, but there is a growing disparity both gas and electricity have fallen—not just a little, but between diesel and petrol costs, which is harming many quite a lot, and not just in the past few days or weeks, motorists all over the country, and also harming the but for a sustained period of more than a year. haulage sector. Why is that happening? We need an inquiry urgently, and we need a regulator to intervene The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change with the fuel companies as well as the gas and electricity (Mr Edward Davey) rose— companies. rose— Caroline Flint: My hon. Friend has made an important Charlie Elphicke point. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), the shadow Transport Secretary, has Caroline Flint: I will give way shortly. suggested that we should compare what happens in the That brings us to the second question that the House energy markets that I cover and what happens when it needs to consider today. Have those savings been passed comes to ensuring that our cars and buses can run, on to consumers? Yesterday, E.ON announced a price along with all other forms of transport that rely on cut of 3.5%. Of course, any cut to anyone’s energy bill is diesel and petrol. At the heart of debates such as this is to be welcomed, but E.ON is just one company, and it the issue of how markets work and whether they are has cut the price of only one fuel—gas. Electricity competitive enough. I hope we all agree that, in a truly prices remain unchanged, and it just so happens that competitive market of any kind, when wholesale costs E.ON has more electricity customers than gas customers. come down those reductions are passed on to the consumer, Moreover, it has cut its gas price by only 3.5%, which but—as others have pointed out—that is clearly not must be set against falls of between 20% and 30% in happening now, at least in the markets that I cover. wholesale gas prices. Even if we allow for the fact that wholesale costs make up only half the energy bill, that Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): Will suggests that, after cutting its price, E.ON has still the right hon. Lady explain what she thinks a wholesale pocketed most of the savings from falling wholesale price actually is, and how she thinks supply contracts prices. The idea that we are are priced? “winning the war on energy bills”, as the Secretary of State told The Northern Echo last Caroline Flint: I shall be happy to do so later in my week, is about as far from reality as the right hon. speech. Gentleman’s chances of becoming leader of his party— much though some of us relish the prospect. Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the Government’s total Some of the energy companies collude with the betrayals has been their failure even to consider requiring Government in perpetuating the idea that bills are Ofgem to regulate oil prices in the first place? When falling. According to a press release issued on Sunday they speak of rural communities they talk about bringing by Energy UK, the trade association for the energy back fox hunting, but what most people in rural companies, communities want are lower energy costs and lower oil “Energy suppliers are already passing on price cuts to customers.” prices. Apart from E.ON, none of the suppliers—notably the big six, which have millions of “sticky” customers on Caroline Flint: I think that in a number of policy expensive tariffs—have cut the price of their standard areas, the Government are—to put it in a not very variable tariff, which is the tariff that most people are academic way—all over the shop. When it comes to on. What they are doing is offering cheaper tariffs in energy, they contradict themselves daily, and I can order to acquire new customers, but offering cheaper provide the House with evidence of that. deals to a small number of new customers is completely Our motion raises four questions. First, have wholesale different from passing on savings to existing customers. costs fallen, and are they continuing to fall? The answer The obvious question to be asked is this: if companies to both parts of that question is clearly yes. Ofgem—the can afford to offer cheaper deals—often hundreds of independent regulator with access to market data—confirms pounds cheaper—to acquire new customers, what is that that is the case. Its most recent estimate suggests preventing them from reducing bills for the rest of their that contract prices for the delivery of gas and electricity customers? That is the second fact that we have established this winter are, respectively, 17% and 7% lower than this afternoon: wholesale costs have fallen, and the they were this time last year. The Government’s own savings have not been passed on to consumers. figures also show a fall. In a written parliamentary answer that I was given on 26 November 2014, the Mr Davey: On Sunday, on “The Andrew Marr Show”, Minister for Business and Enterprise revealed that wholesale the Leader of the Opposition told us that Labour gas prices had fallen by 20% between November 2013 wanted “fast track legislation” to ensure that Labour’s 895 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 896

[Mr Davey] they have to offer the cheapest tariff. I know that because I regularly get letters from EDF, my energy idea was implemented before the election. Can the right provider, not only offering me a cheaper tariff but hon. Lady tell us which wholesale price Labour would informing me of the cheaper tariffs on offer from other use for its regulation? Would it be the daily price, the companies. weekly price or the monthly price? Caroline Flint: The hon. Gentleman has on a number Caroline Flint: As I have said in the House before, we of occasions stood up for consumers where he has will give the regulator a power and a duty to ensure that concerns about how the energy sector is working. I say when wholesale costs fall, it will make the decision—as this to him: the energy companies have been asked to is only right—to ensure that those reductions are passed inform their customers of the cheapest tariff, which is on to consumers. I should have thought that the Secretary okay, but the truth is that we have the enormous problem of State would welcome that. As was pointed out by my of the inherited legacy post-privatisation of a very hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew sticky customer base. That is demonstrated by the fact Gwynne), Ofgem—which I understand the Secretary of that the number of people switching is falling, not State supports—has a duty and a responsibility to increasing. protect consumers, and one way of protecting consumers Let me give the hon. Gentleman an example of is to ensure that they are paying a fair price for their another practice that is happening at the moment. It is energy. I see absolute clarity in our policy, but no clarity called white labels, and it is where an energy company—one on the Government Benches. of the big six—offers through another organisation, That brings me to the third question. This is where maybe a supermarket or another company, a cheaper things really begin to get interesting. Why have suppliers tariff to people who decide to be customers of that failed to pass on these savings? A number of different organisation, when it is the energy company providing explanations—although they might more accurately be the staff in the call centres and doing the training called excuses—have been provided, both by energy behind it, but they do not let their existing customers companies themselves and by their friends in the know what is going on. That is a good example of how Government. they get around the offer they should be making to their The first excuse that we have been given is that, existing customers to reflect wholesale cost falls for because there is a gap between the point at which an everyone, not just those whose business they want to energy company buys its energy and the point at which acquire. that energy is actually delivered, a company might be buying energy 18 months or a year ahead of time. That Robert Flello: Is my right hon. Friend as astonished is true, but wholesale energy costs have been falling for as I am, and I am sure almost all my constituents will over a year, so even if companies bought their energy a be, that the Government are trying to defend the energy year or more in advance, bills should still be coming companies and not trying to defend the poor consumer? down by now. That explanation simply does not hold. Caroline Flint: I do find that incredible, given that the Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I was very disappointed Chancellor issued a stern warning to the energy companies by what the Secretary of State said a moment ago. only last week about their not passing on falls in wholesale Whenever I raise this issue in interventions with him, he cost. I do find it unbelievable that we cannot get a hides behind the regulator and says, “We need a strong, consensus in the House on this issue. independent regulator to ensure that consumers’ interests are protected.” I suggest that a review in the hands of a strong regulator is the way to protect their interests. I Mr Weir: I have been listening carefully to what the am sure that the Secretary of State agrees with that. He right hon. Lady has been saying and I agree with most should not try to score silly party political points. of it, but she mentioned the CMA, and one of the things that slightly concerns me is the length of time the investigations often take. What assurance can she give Caroline Flint: Labour Members certainly agree with us that if this were to happen, it would be a prompt that, as do others, including the CBI. Energy should be investigation with action taken on prices? The last thing a managed market. It is different from other things that we need is for this to be kicked into the long grass so we may buy, because it is essential to life. It keeps our that we get an answer only 18 months down the line homes warm, it keeps the lights on, and it keeps our when things may have changed completely. hospitals and our businesses going. In this area it is absolutely clear, and I would have thought there would be some agreement from those on the Government Caroline Flint: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support Benches about this, because they have welcomed the for Labour’s policies in this area, and I hope we can CMA review. Why would they welcome a review if they persuade the Scottish National party that the price thought everything was hunky-dory? Clearly there is freeze is a good policy as well and that it should get something wrong in the way this market has been behind it. working, and that is why we have risen to the challenge To inform the hon. Gentleman, the timetable is that to do something about it. the CMA report is due to be completed in December of this year, but an interim report should be forthcoming Robert Halfon: The right hon. Lady is being in June. Our view all along has been that when Labour extraordinarily generous in giving way to me. She said is in government, we will freeze prices and introduce that the energy companies are only reducing prices to measures to make sure that the regulator can ensure new customers, but under the Government’s regulations that wholesale cost reductions are passed on. Also, in 897 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 898 tandem with the CMA, we will be issuing further detail their prices would spell disaster. What clearer message of our reforms, which I have to say in some respects the could there be to energy companies that they are free to CMA has taken on board, which I welcome. do whatever they like, charge whatever they like, and The second excuse we have been given is that wholesale treat their customers however they like? If the Government costs are only one part of an energy bill. I heard a will not step in now, when Ministers themselves are spokesman for E.ON yesterday refer to “non-energy admitting that customers are being ripped off—and costs” preventing reductions being passed on, but let us that is what is happening if wholesale costs are falling remember that even though there are other costs, wholesale and household bills are not—then they never will. That costs are still, as we would expect, the single biggest is what the Minister’s letter really is: it is a get-out-of-jail-free component of a household energy bill. When the cost card—“Pass go, don’t pay £100 and don’t pass on of the single biggest component falls by 20% or even savings to your customers.” [Interruption.] Don’t pay 30%, I think the bill should come down, too. £200 then. So wholesale costs have fallen but consumers have not seen the benefit, and the reason is that competition Let us also not forget that one part of a typical is weak and the companies know that this Government energy bill has been increasing sharply: the profits of will never do anything about it. these companies. Ofgem’s latest supply market indicators suggest that profit just on the supply of energy—and That brings me on to my fourth and final question for there is another even bigger profit on generation—has the House to consider: what should we do about it? We more than doubled from £49 per household in 2013 to have had a few suggestions from the Government, and I over £100 per household today. Energy companies do want to deal with each of them in turn. The first idea we control that, so that argument does not stand up to have had is another investigation. To be fair, it is not scrutiny either. just an investigation: there is a strongly—strongly—worded letter too, and an invitation to a summit, which brings Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does my right to mind that notoriously successful summit the Government hon. Friend agree that the energy companies are also held with the energy companies soon after I entered this very quick to increase customers’ direct debit payments, job in 2011! I think it was dubbed “Click, switch and but seem to be very slow to pay back money when insulate to save”. Unfortunately, the energy companies people have over-paid? put their prices up anyway. Indeed, such is the utter confusion within Government on energy policy that it looks as though we have come full circle and are back to Caroline Flint: I agree. I constantly hear complaints the policies that they themselves know failed in the past. about roll-overs as well, when people suddenly find their tariffs have increased. There is a huge amount that And what could there possibly be to investigate? We still needs to be done, and in a number of areas I only know what the problem is. We have known about it wish we had had more of a consensus in this House. since 2011 when Ofgem first identified it, and we can all see for ourselves that wholesale costs have fallen and So, what is happening? Why are our energy companies consumers’ bills have not. What more is there to it than not passing on the benefits of falling wholesale costs? I that? Why do we need another investigation, in addition think the answer is pretty simple. They are not passing to the one that the CMA is running? And what good on the savings for the same reason that they have never will it do? How will it help a single family with their passed them on: they do not believe they will be made energy bills now? to. In part, that is because the normal competitive pressures we would expect to see in a functioning market The second idea is that we just have to wait. The do not exist in our energy market. If they did, we would argument goes that at some point some time in the all see bills falling, because in a competitive market future some of the companies might eventually cut their there is no reason—none whatsoever—why falls in prices—or should we wait until the CMA reports in wholesale costs should not be passed on as quickly or December? But why should we wait? Why should fully as increases. However, it is also because they know households wait a single day longer? Wholesale costs that this Government will never make them—will never have been falling for more than a year; how much challenge them, never stand up to them, and never put longer must people wait before their bills fall too? ordinary families first. That is the single most important [Interruption.] The Secretary of State might be interested thing that the Chancellor’s letter and the Minister’s to hear that, as figures I published today show, the so-called summit tell us. Yes, of course, they are empty average family’s energy bill is £260 a year higher than it gestures. We know that, and the public know it, too, and was in 2010. Behind those figures, however, is the fact if today’s Financial Times is right, the Secretary of State that it is the poorest households who have been hit knows it as well—in his defence he did not even know hardest. With electricity up by nearly 40%, gas bills about this so-called investigation until after it had been having risen by more than 50% in the last three years announced, which speaks volumes about his grip on alone, and for the first time on record more than 1 million energy policy in government. That is probably why the families with children in England in fuel poverty, they Minister for Business and Enterprise is not taking part cannot afford to wait. in this debate. He does not need to, because all he has to The third idea we have been offered is to make the do is pop over to the Treasury for a quick chat with his energy market more competitive—I am sure that is old boss to determine the Government’s energy policy. what the Secretary of State will argue in his speech None the less, this does reveal something fundamental today. No one would disagree that consumers would be about this Government’s refusal to tackle energy bills. better served if companies were hungrier and competed We now have Government Ministers saying that wholesale more to win, and retain, their customers by cutting costs are falling and pointing out that these have not prices and improving customer service. Indeed, we been passed on to consumers, but nevertheless still have set out and debated a number of our proposals saying that to actually force energy companies to cut which are designed to do exactly that. However, the fact 899 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 900

[Caroline Flint] homes, and just let the energy companies get away with their usual tactics; or do we call time on the sharp remains that competition is not working; if it were, bills practices and rip-off prices? Do we draw a line in the would have fallen and we would not be having this sand and say “No more”? That is the decision Members debate. Indeed, it is not merely not working, but the will have to make, and account for to their constituents. situation is getting worse. That is not just my view but Government Members have had the chance before to that of the regulator, Ofgem, in last year’s state of the take action on energy bills—and have refused to do so. market assessment: They will not be able to vote against action to make “There are indications that things are getting worse for consumers.” energy companies cut their bills today, and then complain On the question of companies not passing on falling tomorrow that falls in wholesale costs are not being costs, it said: passed on. Let me warn them: much though they might “We found that suppliers pass on cost increases more fully and wish it, this debate is not going away. I have it on good more quickly than cost decreases. The asymmetry we found was authority that the Prime Minister does not want to talk greater than when Ofgem performed a similar exercise in 2011.” about energy between now and the election, but let me So the idea that we should simply leave it to the market say to him and to the House that that is exactly what to correct itself perhaps some years down the road, this election is about. It is about more than energy when things have been getting worse, is not one we prices; it is about how our country is run and whom it is should seriously entertain. run for. The first, last and most important test to judge If that is not the answer, that leaves us with one any Government by is the level of success for working option. The Government must ensure that if consumers people in our country—for the many, not the few. do not enjoy the benefits of competition, they are afforded the protection of regulation, and that is what 2.25 pm today’s motion proposes. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Mr Edward Davey): I thank the right hon. Member for (PC): The shadow Secretary of State is outlining some Don Valley (Caroline Flint) for bringing her policy serious statistics and I agree with the points she is ideas to the House again. Some colleagues will remember making. However, does she not agree one of the most the last time we debated a similar motion, on 18 June effective ways of addressing fuel poverty is to sharply last year, and it was not a happy experience for the increase infrastructure investment in home energy efficiency? Opposition. Since then, the evidence that our policies That would create green jobs, boost economic growth, are working has increased, and the Opposition have still cut carbon emissions and address pressures on the NHS failed to explain how their policies would work. such as respiratory diseases. Why is the Labour party People out there—from pensioners to families—need not making the case for sharply increasing infrastructure our help with energy bills, and whether it is competition investment in Wales? or regulation, energy efficiency or direct payments such as the warm home discount, I am determined that they Caroline Flint: We are making the case, and I refer the get it. Indeed, I am open to any policy that genuinely hon. Gentleman to the Green Paper we published just helps people to pay their energy bills. However, the before Christmas, in which we made three points in that Labour party’s proposal would actually make things regard. First, we would make sure that the money levied worse. My argument to the House today is as follows. from the energy companies to help with insulation went First, when it comes to delivering lower gas and electricity to the fuel-poor, taking a bottom-up rather than top-down prices for consumers, competitive markets are more approach to delivering energy efficiency in our communities. effective than Government price fixing and heavy-handed We have said that we should have higher ambitions for regulation. Moreover, I will show not only that this the private rented sector in order to make such homes Government have successfully acted to make these markets fit for purpose, and that we should get a better deal for more competitive, but that we are not complacent—that those who can afford to pay something, by providing we know more needs to be done for consumers—and 1 million zero-interest loans during the next Parliament. that we will continue to work to improve competition We have also said that energy efficiency should be a further. Above all, I will show that, thanks to our national infrastructure priority. I hope that that clarifies policies on competition, consumers can now get the the position for the hon. Gentleman. benefits of lower energy bills. This is about ensuring that we have a policy that is fit for purpose: not just a new power for the regulator, but Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) a new duty to ensure that bills are fair and that reductions (Lab): How can the Government justify not passing on in wholesale costs are passed on to consumers. There the fall in oil prices to customers? Some 8,000 households should also be a price freeze until 2017, so that energy in my constituency are in fuel poverty, and nearly 3,000 companies cannot simply whack their prices back up people are accessing food banks. People are choosing after being forced to cut them. We know that wholesale between heating and eating. How can the Secretary of costs have fallen, and that energy companies will not State justify not doing anything? pass on the full saving to all consumers unless they are forced to, so let us give the regulator that power. Let it Mr Davey: The hon. Lady refers to oil prices but we do the job that people expect it to do, and let us put in a are talking about gas and electricity prices. Oil prices place a framework that can begin the process of restoring relate mainly to transport—to petrol and diesel. However, trust in the broken energy market. assuming that she meant gas and electricity prices, That is the choice before the House today. Do we thanks to competition, some of these price falls are carry on with business as usual, with more families with coming through, and I want to give the House more children than ever before unable to afford to heat their detail about that. 901 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 902

Consumers can get the benefits not just of lower Mr MacNeil: The right hon. Gentleman talked about wholesale prices; many can get even greater savings, often problems in the market. May I draw to his attention a more than double the savings from lower wholesale prices. problem that I have already raised with his Department, Again, however, we need to do more to help consumers when the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael know that they can cut their energy bills today. Fallon) was a Minister there? In the islands of Scotland, we pay a higher price per unit of electricity than people Robert Halfon: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend on the mainland and in London. We are also penalised for what he is saying, and for the fact that the Government by the locational charging for renewable energy. The have taken £50 off energy bills. Further to the point that right hon. Member for Sevenoaks was going to look was made earlier, will he look at the issue of direct into whether renewable energy produced in the islands debits? The millions of people who do not pay by direct could be considered as consumption in the local domestic debit face a premium on their energy bills. I know the market, and into the possibility of reducing the charging Government are looking at this, but it seems incredibly either way. unjust and they could address it in order to help keep bills down. Mr Davey: I am aware of some of the problems that Mr Davey: We have indeed looked at this issue, as my the hon. Gentleman has raised. He knows that the rest hon. Friend says, and tried to make sure that any of Great Britain helps with some of those prices, through differences relate only to the costs associated with the subsidy schemes paid for by every consumer in the rest payment method, and that there is no exploitation. of the United Kingdom. We have helped to support those schemes. He might be interested to know that I Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) am going to Edinburgh tomorrow to talk about how we (SNP): Will the Secretary of State give way? can help with wind power on the islands. We have to get the power there first, before we can take up the policy Mr Davey: No, I want to make some progress; I will that he is proposing. give way later. Secondly, I will demonstrate that the Opposition’s As I was saying, when the right hon. Member for proposed new regulations would be bad regulations, Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) was doing my job, resulting in higher prices for consumers, not lower. I am he did nothing. That is in sharp contrast with what has not against regulations where they work better than happened since the coalition came to power. We have competition, but Labour’s proposed regulations, involving been hyperactive in reforming our retail energy markets wholesale-retail price links, would produce yo-yo pricing with a whole host of initiatives from deregulation to and higher pricing, and consumers do not want either. Ofgem’s retail review, from making energy bills simpler to making switching faster, from the MyData initiative The first part of my argument is that consumers to regulating for quick response codes on bills, and benefit most from increasing competition in energy from collective switching to the Big Energy Saving markets, and not from introducing bad regulation. It is Network. The result of our reforming actions is that interesting to note that Labour used to agree with competition has improved. Indeed, it has increased competitive energy markets. Back in 2002, under Labour, quite dramatically and I shall give the House the figures. all gas and electricity price controls were abolished. The argument supported by the Labour Government at the time was that the gas and electricity markets had become Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): Is my right hon. Friend more competitive and that regulation was no longer aware that, even in opposition, the right hon. Member needed. When the present Leader of the Opposition for Doncaster North is managing to increase bills for became Energy Secretary of State in 2008, he continued our constituents? The chief executive of E.ON has to back a policy of no additional price regulation, even commented that the reason that prices have not fallen though it was already becoming clear that the big six faster across the market is the threat of an energy price energy firms created under Labour were not producing freeze from the incompetents on the Benches opposite. the competitive outcomes that Labour had said it wanted. So clear were the problems in the market that there were Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I shall calls for an investigation of that market by the independent come to that point and quote the chief executive, Tony competition authorities. Those calls for an inquiry were Cocker, in a moment. rejected by Labour—specifically by the present Leader I was about to give the figures to show that competition of the Opposition. Worse still, not only did he reject a had increased dramatically since 2010. Back then, there competition inquiry, but he took no significant action were just seven small energy suppliers, with a total to improve competition for consumers. Interestingly, he market share of less than 1%. That is what we inherited also took no action to reintroduce price regulation. He from the right hon. Member for Doncaster North. just did nothing. Today, there are 20 energy independents taking on Labour’s big six. They have a market share of more Charlie Elphicke: It is important that we should test than 10%, and that share is growing fast. In other the credibility of the Opposition’s arguments against words, millions of consumers have switched from Labour’s their record in government. To that end, will my right big six to the coalition’s small independents, and many hon. Friend tell us what happened to gas prices and to have cut their energy bills as a result. fuel poverty under the last Labour Government? Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is right to suggest that gas Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): In and electricity prices rose faster in the last Parliament the Secretary of State’s paean to the coalition’s activities than they have done in this one. Similarly, fuel poverty to reduce prices and increase competition, he appears went up dramatically under the last Labour Government, to have forgotten what he has just done in regard to so he is right to make those points. capacity auctions. Will he confirm that the capacity 903 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 904

[Dr Alan Whitehead] report and said that there were reasons for concern. That is why we supported its referral to the Competition auction that he has just carried out will give £1 billion a and Markets Authority of our gas and electricity markets. year mostly to the big six, and will raise prices to She then talked about switching, and she was right to consumers by about 11p? Is he proud of that, in the say that switching rates fell a little bit in recent years. light of the undertaking to reduce prices that he has The reason for that is that we have got rid of doorstep given today? mis-selling. Doorstep mis-selling was responsible for a big boost in switching figures, but people were switching Mr Davey: I am surprised by the hon. Gentleman’s from one big six supplier to another, and often getting a question, because he is an real expert in this area. He very bad deal as a result. I am delighted that it has now sits on the Select Committee and he also served on the been got rid of, even if that means that overall switching Bill that became the Energy Act 2013, so he will know figures are down. Now, because we have made switching that the capacity market that we created in that legislation easier and faster—through collective switching and so had the support of the Opposition. It was needed on—we are seeing that situation turn around. This time, because the objectives of energy policy are not confined people are not switching between big six companies and to lowering prices; they also involve energy security. getting a poor deal; they are switching away from the That is where the capacity market plays a role. He will big six into the small suppliers and getting a much also know that the results of the capacity auctions were better deal. That is something that never happened far better than we had predicted. The closing price—the under Labour. clearing price—was significantly lower than we predicted, so there will be a lower impact on consumer bills. That Charlie Elphicke: To underline that point, I switched is good news for consumers, because it means that from SSE and British Gas to a new dual-fuel supplier a energy security has been achieved at a lower cost. He is couple of years ago and saved 25%. The Opposition wrong to say that all that money is going to the big six; a should not sneer at switching, because it can make a plethora of energy generators will benefit from it. dramatic difference to people’s bills. Let me be frank with the House. It has taken some time to turn around the mess in the energy markets that Mr Davey: Indeed. I was going on to respond to the we inherited. We cannot switch competition on and off right hon. Lady’s third question, because a host of deals like a light bulb. We know that, until recently, energy are available across the country. I would have thought bills have been rising over the course of this Parliament. Labour Front Benchers wanted to support these deals The fact that they have risen more slowly during this and tell people about them and how people can switch Parliament, compared with the last Parliament, is frankly and save money—if they really cared. For example, a irrelevant to the consumer who still has to pay a higher year ago in London there was not a single deal in the bill. So, although we have increased competition and market where the average household could get its annual although that is working, I am determined to go further supply of electricity and gas for less than £1,000, whereas still. That is why, back in 2013, I commissioned the first today, because prices have been coming down, 13 deals annual competition assessment of our energy markets offer the average household an annual dual fuel bill of and why I strongly backed Ofgem’s referral last year of less than £1,000. our gas and electricity markets to the Competition and Markets Authority. I still want to do more. I am going to continue to fight for consumers every day that I hold this office, in stark The past 12 months have seen the first big test of the contrast to the record of the Leader of the Opposition extra competition that we have introduced. Have consumers when he was Energy and Climate Change Secretary. been able to benefit as wholesale prices have fallen? The The exciting news is that our competition from the answer is yes. Not all consumers have benefited, of smaller suppliers, which is taking huge numbers of course, but several million have switched to new suppliers customers from the big six, is now forcing the big six to and to new deals in which the fall in wholesale prices act, too. Last autumn, the time when energy prices are has been passed on. They have seen the benefit of our normally put up, the big six froze them—without any extra competition. Indeed, many people who have switched regulation and without Labour’s price freeze. Yesterday, have seen savings far bigger than the fall in wholesale E.ON went further, cutting its variable gas tariff by prices alone would produce. Our latest estimate suggests 3.5%. Some have dismissed that cut as being only that many people could save about £300 a year by 3.5%, noting that gas wholesale prices fell by nearly switching. 18% across 2014 and saying that the cut is too small. Let us look at what E.ON said. First, it notes that wholesale Caroline Flint: Would the Secretary of State admit costs are 46% of the bill, so of course retail costs will that Ofgem believes the situation to be getting worse? not go down as fast as wholesale costs in any case, Even if people are switching, which is welcome, their unless all costs, such as network and administration numbers are falling. Does he agree that it is only those costs also fell by the same as wholesale costs—this who switch who are getting the benefit of new tariffs? observation is called arithmetic. Secondly, Tony Cocker, What does he say to the many more customers who are E.ON’s chief executive officer, has said: on tariffs that provide no benefit as a result of the fall in wholesale prices? “Given the possibility of a price freeze, we are undoubtedly taking a risk today”. Mr Davey: I think I counted three questions in there, So we have to ask: if E.ON did not face the risk of Labour’s price and I shall try to answer all three, if I can remember freeze, would it have cut its prices even more? them. The right hon. Lady said that Ofgem believed the Perhaps the Labour party does not want to listen to situation to be getting worse. Certainly, its 2013 report industry leaders, even the ones who are cutting prices, compared the situation to the one outlined in its previous but the same point is being made by consumer champions. 905 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 906

For example, Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert.com are seeing different hedging strategies, new business has warned that energy firms are not cutting their models, new purchasing strategies and innovation. It prices, even though they would like to, because they fear looks like that is enabling many people to benefit from being locked in by a Labour price freeze that would lower wholesale prices now. But despite that progress, make them suffer losses. Consumer champion— the Opposition have turned their back on successful [Interruption.] Not a vested interest. Consumer champion competition. Ann Robinson of uSwitch has speculated that the prospect of Labour’s price freeze could be to blame for the big Debbie Abrahams rose— six delaying cuts in standard prices. Mr Davey: I shall give way to the hon. Lady for a Of course, there may be other explanations for the second time, too. delay in the big six passing on the costs. When the Leader of the Opposition was doing my job, he explained Debbie Abrahams: Given what the Secretary of State that it was about energy companies buying their electricity is saying now, can he explain what the Chancellor and gas forward—hedging—to protect consumers. After meant when he said it was “vital” that falls in wholesale a summit with energy firms—he was very good at prices are passed on to families through utility bills? having summits, after which no policy changes were announced—he said: Mr Davey: There is no difference between me and the “We have recently seen big falls in wholesale gas and electricity Chancellor here: of course we want to see price cuts go prices, but I understand that because energy companies tend to through to consumers. The question is: what is the best buy in advance they won’t be passed on immediately.” way of doing it? Is it through heavy-handed regulation, One is tempted to ask: what has changed? Why did he which has to be changed? As we have heard today, the do nothing when he could but now, months before an price freeze has had to be changed because bills are election, claim he has found an answer? coming down. If that regulation had been put in place, Whatever the cause, I welcome the fact that E.ON consumers would have seen higher bills now, not lower has not only cut its standard variable gas tariff, but is ones. That is why regulation is not— offering a fixed-price deal at just £923 for the average household. I want the other big energy firms to follow Caroline Flint: On a point of order, Madam Deputy suit, but we will not need a regulation for that to Speaker. As I said in the House on 2 April 2014 and happen. I confidently predict that competition will force have done many times since—I reminded the House the other large energy firms to cut prices, or they will about this today—the price freeze will stop energy continue to lose customers in droves to competitors—that companies increasing their prices but will not stop them is competition. Indeed, I am very confident that we will cutting them. Therefore I am afraid the Secretary of soon see more energy firms cutting their prices and State’s statements are seriously misleading, albeit offering even better deals. unintentionally, I am sure. Can you tell me how he can correct the record? Mr MacNeil rose— Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Mr Davey: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman for a That is not a point of order; it is a continuation of the second time. debate. The Secretary of State is responsible for what he says at the Dispatch Box. Fortunately, I am not, unless Mr MacNeil: I am grateful to the Secretary of State it is unparliamentary, and so far he has not been. for being very generous. He has talked about fighting for consumers. What will he do for consumers in rural Mr Davey: I will try my best not to be unparliamentary, and island areas, who are paying more per unit of Madam Deputy Speaker. For the benefit of the House electricity than those in big cities and doing so in areas let me quote what the hon. Member for Leeds West that also have higher fuel poverty? He is in power at the (Rachel Reeves), a shadow Cabinet colleague of the moment, so what can he do? right hon. Member for Don Valley, has been reported as saying on Andrew Neil’s programme this morning: She Mr Davey: The hon. Gentleman rightly says that it is said: clear that there is a lot more fuel poverty in rural areas “We didn’t use the word ‘cap’.” than was previously known about. When we redid the I can show the House the Labour advert for the price way we analyse fuel poverty figures, because the measures freeze. I see a block of ice, and I see the words “frozen” we inherited from the previous Government were not and “freeze” but I do not see a picture of a cap. There is measuring fuel poverty very well—the Queen was in no cap on that advert. So, as for the idea that there has fuel poverty under their approach—we discovered that not been a change and that the Opposition are not in those in rural areas were suffering some of the worst complete confusion, it is clear. fuel poverty. That is why we are changing some of our Let me put on record that I am grateful for the policies. I have some good news for him, because the support of the right hon. Member for Don Valley—she falling oil prices have meant heating oil prices have has supported, rather belatedly, our support for the dropped, too. That is good news for some people in deepest ever investigation of energy markets by the rural areas who depend on heating oil, as it is at prices Competition and Markets Authority, which is now under last seen in 2009. I know that that is not the full answer, way. However, there is one major caveat. Labour’s support but I hope it at least shows some welcome signs. for the CMA would be more credible—Labour would Let us just examine why our extra competition appears be more credible—if Labour was prepared to wait until to be resulting in better deals and lower prices from the just later this year to see the report; Labour could wait new entrants. There is now greater diversity in how for the independent advice of the CMA before anyone firms buy forward, and with many different firms we regulates. If the CMA says that new regulations are 907 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 908

[Mr Davey] therefore, be disastrous for consumers. Clearly, Labour’s policy would end up raising prices, but what about its needed to protect the consumer, I, for one, will back proposal to force, by regulation, wholesale price cuts to that. I doubt that new regulations will be its main be passed on to consumers? How would that work? recommendation, but I am sure of one thing: any First, there would have to be a wholesale price—the regulation the CMA comes up with will be far more reference wholesale price—used for the purpose. Last effective, far better thought out and far more likely to June, I asked the right hon. Lady whether that wholesale work than the frankly daft regulations Labour continues price would be priced daily, weekly or monthly and she to propose. The fact that Labour will not wait for the did not answer. I have asked her again and she still has independent CMA exposes its policy for what it is: a not answered. That is strange, because the Leader of cheap political gimmick. the Opposition told Andrew Marr this Sunday that he That is my second argument: Labour’s regulation wanted to fast-track regulation, so one would assume would be bad for consumers and would put up prices. that he had worked this out. We can only guess. Will The first issue is the utter incoherence and inconsistency consumer energy prices yo-yo up and down every day, of Labour’s proposed regulations. Labour wants to every week or every month with wholesale prices? We freeze prices and, at the same time, force retail prices to just do not know. go up and down with wholesale prices. As we saw One of the main purposes of energy firms buying earlier, the right hon. Member for Don Valley cannot ahead and hedging is to protect consumers from yo-yo explain which policy Labour now prefers: a freeze or prices. Forward buying smoothes prices for consumers. yo-yo bills. Worse still, it now seems that Labour’s price Let me explain this rather fatal problem with the freeze is not really a price freeze. She keeps on trying to Opposition’s proposal another way. Let me use data deny it, but I have quoted the hon. Member for Leeds from last year to show how Labour’s policy would West and shown the figures. I can also quote The Sun. work—or actually not work. Over the whole year, day-ahead Under the headline, “Mili may ditch price freeze vow”, wholesale gas prices fell by almost 18%. But that fall a senior Labour source is quoted as saying: over the whole year masked significant ups and downs “If bills are coming down there will have to be a rebranding to during the year. For example, between March and July, makeitacap.” gas prices fell by almost 40% before rising again by Clearly, Labour’s high command is worried: it knows nearly 50% by December. If Ofgem had forced suppliers that its price freeze would mean higher bills, as some of to drop retail prices to consumers to reflect the lows in us have warned all along. wholesale gas prices in July, would it have had to force companies to raise retail prices to reflect the highs of Caroline Flint rose— December? Or would the right hon. Lady expect the firms simply to bear that loss? No answer cometh. What Mr Davey: Here comes the rebranding. a lot of nonsense this is. Caroline Flint: Perhaps, as we are quoting from journalists in the press, the Secretary of State will want to comment Charlie Elphicke: Does my right hon. Friend not on what the energy editor of The Daily Telegraph tweeted agree that having that yo-yo system would massively today. She said: impact on continuity of supply, because we would not “To be fair to Labour, heard them say energy ‘freeze’ is ‘cap’ be able to have long-term contracts to guarantee the many times.” delivery and supply of gas to this nation? This morning, the Financial Times stated that “the Government is still in disarray over how to respond to Mr Davey: Indeed. The danger is that the Government— Labour’s campaign for lower energy prices.” some sort of Gosplan regulator—would effectively have Perhaps the Secretary of State would like to comment to decide the purchasing strategies of all energy companies. on those reports. Clearly, Labour has found someone who is much better than all the market participants. I do not know who Mr Davey: Did Members note that there was no that individual is; he has not been identified. Not only is quote from a source? The right hon. Lady was trying to this a lot of nonsense, but it will be very costly. Firms compare a quote from a Labour source with a quote will face higher administrative costs. They will have to from a journalist—not terribly good. notify customers of price changes far more regularly, and the customer will have to pay for that. We have always known that the freeze would be a bad idea. If wholesale prices rose during the freeze, small firms would go bust, damaging competition. If wholesale Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): Will my prices fall, energy firms would just make massive profits. right hon. Friend give way on that? If the freeze has become a cap, then that raises more questions. A cap implies that Labour’s regulation would Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): work only one way. Wholesale price cuts would have to Order. The Secretary of State will not be giving way. be passed on, but not price rises. Energy firms could The right hon. Gentleman joined the debate late. He only lose from such a regulation. has not been in the Chamber very long. It is a timed Opposition Members may not care about that, but debate that has to end at 4.30 at the latest, and I have they should remember that that means that consumers 13 speakers. After nearly an hour into the debate, we lose. For if the risk is only one way—lose—the energy still have not completed the opening speeches. The firms will have to price in that risk in the prices that they Secretary of State will resume. charge, which means higher prices. Indeed, they will also have to price in extra regulatory uncertainty from Mr Davey: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sorry for Labour’s wholesale return to regulated prices. This will, being so generous-hearted. 909 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 910

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps the Secretary The scheme would harness one of the world’s largest of State could be generous to all the Back Benchers who potential sources of renewable energy: the huge tidal wish to speak in the debate as well as intervene on him. range of the Severn estuary—the second highest in the world. Building an 18-kilometre barrage between Brean Mr Davey: I will take your stricture, Madam Deputy in England and Lavernock Point in Wales would be one Speaker, as you are the regulator. of the world’s largest privately funded global engineering My final point on the right hon. Lady’s proposal is projects. that it would damage fixed-price deals. They are the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): leading deals on the market and would almost certainly Order. I must reluctantly intervene on the right hon. go in her model of regulation. I do not believe that Gentleman. This debate is about energy prices, not consumers want Labour’s yo-yo prices or to pay the energy generation from things like the barrage. He extra costs for the privilege of having yo-yo prices. needs to relate his comments to the impact on energy We have two different policy options on offer. A prices and passing on reductions to the consumer. policy of increasing competition, which is working, has seen energy bills frozen and cut. It is a competition Mr Hain: I was about to do that, but I need—obviously policy that we want to see pushed further still to get with your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker—to more benefit for every bill payer, not least with the describe the project in order to do so. CMA investigation. That approach stands against a Most importantly, the barrage would produce the policy of ill-conceived regulation that even in the most cheapest electricity in the United Kingdom—half the charitable light will increase risk, uncertainty and volatility cost of alternative sources such as gas, nuclear and coal, and, as night follows day, mean higher prices for consumers. as well as other renewables. Previous consortia interested Lower energy bills from the Government and higher in the project have looked to a period of consumer energy bills from Labour. I look forward to putting that subsidy lasting less than 25% of its life—very small choice to the electorate. compared with other renewables. After that initial subsidy period, promoted by previous consortia backing the Several hon. Members rose— barrage, it would generate electricity at £20 per MWh for at least a century, less than half the wholesale Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I am afraid that it market price that the economy has been used to. will be necessary to impose a time limit on all speeches. The latest project backer does not want the consumer The Front-Bench teams require 10 minutes each. Therefore, subsidy of contracts for difference, a point which I hope the time limit on Back Benchers, of whom 13 gave the Secretary of State will note. In meetings with him, I notice in writing before the start of this debate that they have discussed support for the barrage, which he has wish to speak, will be five minutes starting now. The not been able to give. The barrage has attracted widespread first speaker is Peter Hain. criticism from wildlife groups, but it has considerable other benefits, including low electricity prices over its 2.57 pm entire life if the current project is taken forward in this way. In addition, it would have other important effects Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I thank the Secretary on the economy. The 1,026 turbines required, each the of State for his revelation that The Sun is now the house weight of a jumbo jet, would be built at two factories in journal of the Liberal Democrats. It does him and the the region, most probably at Port Talbot and Bristol. Government no credit that their attitude to Labour’s The planned caisson-casting yard at Port Talbot deep-water price freeze has veered wildly, initially denouncing it as docks could afterwards be converted into a port for Marxist, which was a revelation to all Marxist disciples, ultra-large container ships. It would also enable us not and now misrepresenting it with a patronising approach just to keep prices low, but to export the technology and that belies the fact that my right hon. Friend the Member expertise in tidal barrage construction around the world. for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) and the leader of the So it would keep prices low, which consumers desperately Labour party have been proved right all along on this need, and it would support flood protection. Some policy, as they will be proved right in the future. 90,000 properties and 500 square kilometres of Wales One of the best vehicles for keeping energy prices low and the south-west, including the Somerset levels, would is the Severn barrage. This huge infrastructure investment be supported, and it would act as a barrier against boost makes the Severn barrage a no brainer, not least storm surges. Therefore, prices would be kept low and because it requires no Treasury funding. The £25 billion there would be many other benefits from the project. construction cost will be financed entirely privately, In conclusion, this is the biggest single investment mainly from sovereign wealth funds and other large-scale project coming from the private sector, needing no institutional investors, because they would have a guaranteed consumer subsidy at all in contracts for difference, revenue stream over a period of 120 years or more. according to the latest backer of the project, which I The project will create 20,000 jobs during its nine-year hope the Government will meet. I hope that people will build, and with multiplier effects another 30,000 jobs, see this as something that should have been backed making a total of 50,000 jobs and a £70 billion boost to already, and that now all parties will back it as a— the economy. Many of the jobs will be located in communities in south Wales and the south-west of Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. England, which are crying out for such a boost of investment and high-skilled jobs. Some 80% of the 3.3 pm spend will be in the United Kingdom, unlike wind Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): It is a pleasure to power where 80% is spent abroad because countries follow the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), but such as Germany and Norway have stolen the lead on he will understand if I do not go down the path of his wind turbine manufacture. argument. He knows my views about the enormous cost 911 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 912

[Mr Tim Yeo] voluntarily, sometimes at short notice, to reduce their consumption. The evidence from America is that this of electricity generated from the Severn barrage, which new technology, developed in the last few years, is were set out in the report of the Energy and Climate unlocking a considerable potential for reducing demand Change Committee, which I chair, a couple of years ago. for electricity at peak times. This has two big advantages: The Opposition’s proposed price freeze is one of it cuts the need to maintain large amounts of expensive those rare policies the mere announcement of which surplus capacity, most of which is used only for a very causes even more harm than its implementation would small amount of time each year, and eliminating that do. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State surplus would reduce the bill of every consumer. It is comprehensively demolished the price freeze and its also one of the cheapest and most cost-effective ways to complete lack of intellectual coherence, which, incidentally, cut greenhouse gas emissions. At present, providers of makes it astonishing that it is proposed by a former genuine demand-side response, as opposed to the operators Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. I of diesel farms, are not being sufficiently encouraged by will not repeat the case against the price freeze, but the capacity market. I urge my right hon. Friend to look simply emphasise that the only absolutely certain carefully at the ways in which next year’s capacity consequence of a freeze announced months in advance market auction can be tweaked to ensure that genuine of its implementation would be to raise prices substantially demand-side response providers get a bigger share of above where they otherwise would be and to discourage, the market than the 1% that was achieved last month. and possibly destroy the prospect of, much needed The third way to cut energy costs is to seize the investment—two totally perverse outcomes that would opportunity provided by the deployment of smart substantially damage the interests of consumers. technology to promote energy efficiency. To get the Instead of repeating my right hon. Friend’s effective maximum benefit from this, we need to establish a true attack, I want to suggest four ways in which energy market in energy consumption where time of use pricing costs could be cut. We must focus on costs not prices. It encourages consumers to move their consumption of is false for anyone to claim that Government can control gas and electricity away from the hours of peak demand energy prices when the biggest factor in determining towards low consumption periods. Smart technology those prices is totally outside their control, namely the makes this easy. Indeed, much of it can be done wholesale price of gas. automatically by ensuring that appliances, such as freezers, The first way to cut energy bills is to pay more switch themselves off whenever prices are high, and attention to transmission and distribution, the costs of warn their users that if they are opened the power which account for almost a fifth of the average bill. needed to operate them will be expensive. That is just a They are provided by largely unscrutinised monopolies, tiny example of the myriad ways in which consumers or quasi-monopolies. Distribution has been neglected, can save money and the cost of maintaining the system because most consumers do not have a clue who supplies can be reduced. We should accept time of use pricing in the power to their homes. The tabloid media regularly the energy market as being as normal as when we buy attack the big six, whose names appear on the electricity an airline or a train ticket. I hope that the Government bills, but they ignore the distribution companies, which will commit to introducing that. face little or no competition—even less than the big six Fourthly and lastly, regardless of the outcome of last experience. For that reason, the distribution companies year’s CMA reference, ending vertical integration in the should face not less but more scrutiny from the regulator. electricity industry must be considered. When the immensely Regrettably, in the past Ofgem has rather let them off successful privatisation of the electricity industry took the hook. However, I make it clear that I exempt the place, generation was separated from retail supply. After current team at Ofgem from that criticism. It is recently a few years, a consensus emerged that allowed these arrived and it has shown some signs of escaping the functions to be merged within single businesses. When torpor that used to overcome its predecessors whenever energy prices were low this did not seem to matter, but there were signs that consumers were being ripped off. today the lack of transparency in the operations of the Transmission is a natural monopoly, and National integrated companies in the wholesale markets has destroyed Grid does a reasonable job, but it, too, is far too consumer trust. More importantly, it is no longer obvious leniently treated by Ofgem, and generously—perhaps that vertical integration benefits consumers. There will over-generously—rewarded for running its monopolies. of course be protests from the industries, but this is an I hope that the Government will give top priority to issue that we need to tackle. bearing down on the costs of transmission and distribution. The harmful effects on consumers in particular of a price freeze announced months in advance of its Ben Gummer: Is my hon. Friend not also concerned implementation are plain to see. Instead of political about the monopoly on connections to new developments, gimmicks whose consequences are perverse, the next which sometimes inflates the costs of new developments Government should take practical steps to cut energy and housing? That also requires further regulation. bills, cut the cost of transmission and distribution, nurture demand-side response, use smart technology to Mr Yeo: I am extremely concerned about that. It has introduce time of use pricing and review whether vertical a big effect in the area that my hon. Friend and I integration is really still in consumers’ interests. I commend represent. these ideas to the House. The second way to cut costs is to embrace enthusiastically the opportunity of demand-side response. Few people 3.9 pm understand the enormous potential benefits of this. It is John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): It is a sometimes wrongly characterised as a way of cutting pleasure to follow my Chairman of the Energy and power off from consumers. It is in fact a chance for Climate Change Committee. I do not necessarily agree consumers to earn some money back by agreeing with everything he said, but I agree with quite a lot of it. 913 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 914

The Secretary of State should know that a yo-yo goes customer, although the cost of buying wholesale energy up and down. It usually goes up the same as it goes fell. That is ridiculous. A 70-year-old living in my down. Perhaps he should have a look at how gravity constituency should not have to make a choice between affects it. Prices, however, just seem to go up. We are still heating and eating. A couple with a young daughter waiting for them to come down, so I look forward to the should not struggle through Christmas and new year yo-yo effect on prices filtering through to my constituents. worrying about whether can buy a present, heat their It is difficult to gauge the importance of a debate home or eat. We should put people before the energy such as this. Fuel poverty has increased over the years. companies. It appears that the Government think otherwise. About 4.5 million households throughout the country are living in fuel poverty. Meanwhile energy costs have 3.14 pm gone through the roof and the energy companies are Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): Populist recording soaring profits. Oil and gas prices have been posturing is a sick and cheap form of politics, and the affected in the past few weeks, and unfortunately because motion pretends that if only Labour were elected, there of that there will be a loss of jobs, possibly only is a quick and easy way of reducing energy prices. The temporarily, but it could be for a lot longer—years, I am Opposition are promising something that will not be told, before we manage to get jobs in the north-east of delivered and they know it, and they are promising Scotland back to where they should be. something which simply cannot be delivered in the way I am sure that over the next few months we will hear a they say. great deal about the cost of living crisis from colleagues The policy of the Opposition is the worst conceivable in all parts of the House, and it is right that we talk combination of ignorance and deceit, and it labels them about stagnating wages, our national health service and as ill equipped to look after the economy. Their ignorance the bedroom tax; but it is also right to talk about of markets and their Canute-like pretence that they can making the energy market work for ordinary people control prices in the way they propose is pitiful in its and addressing the scourge of fuel poverty. fantasy and it is irresponsible. The Labour party is When we think of fuel poverty, we often think of the saying that the tide can go out, but that it has the power frail and elderly who have to choose whether they can to stop it coming in. afford to eat or to heat their homes. Heating or eating Energy markets are complicated and multifaceted. should not be a choice for the British people in the None of them enjoys the direct, simple, linear relationship 21st century, but the reality is that half of English described in the Labour party’s policy and motion. Any households that are classed as fuel-poor are in work— such correlation is not the way of the real world. I have 1.1 million households in fuel poverty are in employment been involved on and off in the energy markets, principally but still cannot afford to heat their homes. The single in oil, for 35 years. Oil, gas and coal in their pricing are largest group affected are couples with children, who interrelated. They tend to move similarly. The only make up 30% of the total. In Scotland between 2012 sector that enjoys a modicum of economic independence and 2013 100,000 more households fell into poverty, and segregation is nuclear, to which one might add, to a bringing the total to almost 1 million homes. Since lesser extent, wind. But the dominant marker for these 2003, consumer gas prices have risen 128% in real major providers of the source of energy, and hence terms, and since 2010 wages have fallen in real terms, utility bills, is oil. It determines in broad terms the cost which does not help. of energy for power generation, heating and transport. There are many ways to combat fuel poverty, including Since I started in the business over 30 years ago, we investing to make homes more energy efficient. To their now have the free market in oil that we did not use to credit, the Government are trying to do that, but they have. When that changed, the nature of pricing also should realise that it takes a lot more than dealing with changed. Our own North sea oil Brent became a marker 2,500 homes to solve the problem. I urge that we also crude for contract pricing, so instead of fixed prices— consider how energy companies treat their customers. 30 bucks for everybody, going from one company all the Energy companies are in the unique position of being way through that company to the end—we got a free able to identify vulnerable customers and temporarily market. That market means that here we are in January, vulnerable customers, and we need to use that information but Brent crude is priced for March and April, and if it to protect those customers better. I am looking forward is a barrel of oil it has to be shipped and refined, so it to receiving the letter from the Secretary of State, which takes time—perhaps four months—for prices to work he told me last week he would send me. I am still their way through from the wellhead to the pump. waiting, and I look forward to his support for looking after such people. Albert Owen: My first job was as a galley boy on an Some energy companies have to pay back 1.5 million oil tanker in the middle east, so I know a little bit about customers who were overcharged on their gas bills. Is oil from a different perspective from that of the right that enough? I say no and I would be interested to hear hon. Gentleman. He says people are ignorant of the what the Minister thinks. Does he think that is enough? facts. Does he agree with the Prime Minister, who said A poll in The Sunday Post demonstrated that 88% of that the best way to deal with the issue is to people thought the energy companies did not act in “give the regulator the teeth to order that those reductions are their interest. Looking at the figures, that does not made”? surprise me. The same poll showed that 81% thought Those were the words of the Prime Minister. Is he those same companies kept their prices artificially high. criticising us for repeating what the Prime Minister I think they are right. I would be interested to hear what said? Does he agree with the leader of his party? the Minister thinks. We cannot ignore the impact that the broken energy Sir Alan Duncan: I totally agree with the Prime market has on millions of energy bills. Last year the Minister. What we want is a competitive market—I profits of the big six energy companies cost £102 per agree with him—not the control of prices by a regulator, 915 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 916

[Sir Alan Duncan] spin because the popular price freeze that Labour announced has become known throughout the country. whom the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline People are absolutely delighted to see a political party Flint) seems to want to be able to write every commercial standing behind them rather than the shareholders of contract throughout the industry. the big six who seek a dividend. Let me say to the right hon. Lady that in the case of Consumers feel as though they are getting a raw deal, gas, the stupidity of the motion is that there is no such and they are getting a raw deal. There is a lack of trust thing as a straightforward wholesale price. When I put in energy companies—in particular, the big six—and my question to her, she lamentably failed to answer it. understandably so. Yesterday it was revealed that British There is no such thing as a straightforward wholesale Gas could rake in an extra 60% in profits if it continues price whose movement should be fully and simply reflected to refuse to cut prices. Whether it is in billing, information, like that in retail prices. That is the fantasy and the tariff rates or overpayments, the British public believe ignorance of this proposal, because life is more complicated. they are being ripped off, and rightly, because they are Let us take gas contracts. Some gas contracts have being ripped off. Last year, UK gas prices went up by pricing formulae which do not simply follow the headline 1.9%, while the average price across the EU dropped by daily market price. They may be based on various 5.7%. While electricity prices rose by 1.9% in the EU, averages or regional weightings. They may have locked UK households were hit by a rise of 6.7%. Wholesale themselves into a one-year or a six-month fixed price. gas costs have dropped by 28% and wholesale electricity They may face maximum and minimum parameters. costs have dropped by 14%. Of course people believe Their costs may have been hedged to eliminate the risk that they are being ripped off, because they are being of massive fluctuations and guard against another idiotic ripped off. policy from the Labour party. This is a complicated The issue of the regulator is extremely important, business, within which suppliers and generators may be and the Labour motion refers to it clearly. Put simply, locked into various different pricing structures, so the Ofgem has a principal objective, which it says on its idea that a regulator can suddenly say, “Oh, there’s the website is this: wholesale price, therefore there is the retail price,” is “To protect the interests of existing and future consumers”. total lunacy and ignorance, of which the right hon. That is what this motion is about. It is about making Lady should be ashamed. sure that instead of standing back and hiding around Even if there were some sort of unshackled easy link the corner from the big energy companies—the big six to daily prices, the Opposition do not understand the and others—Ofgem does what it is supposed to be distinction between price and volume. The price might doing in protecting people who are suffering greatly in fall in a so-called wholesale market, but if there is no this country. Year on year, we have heard debates in this business of any volume in the market, how can that Chamber about the number of people who are dying. price, as a tiny example of one day’s price, then be used My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West as the determinant of retail prices under the right hon. (John Robertson) mentioned the scourge of fuel poverty. Lady’s policy? This is folly of such total lunacy and About 30,000 people are dying, annually, because they ignorance that I am ashamed that anyone in this Chamber cannot afford energy. This is 2015, and we allow that to should want to stand up and pretend that it makes any happen. logical, decent sense. That is why the motion calls clearly for the regulator Labour Members started by proposing a freeze—it to be given powers to ensure that when the wholesale then became a cap, although they have got very muddled, price drops, the consumer benefits immediately. I have but the leader of the Labour party called it a freeze—after heard the poppycock from the business men on the which all the companies’ share prices fell and their Government Benches whose main interests are the interests pricing policies had to change to guard against this of the big six, not the interests of the people who idiocy. Labour’s policy announcement hit share prices cannot afford both to heat and to eat. We should be and utilities and was detrimental to the consumer, and very concerned about the situation that we face here in its cost of living campaign is in shreds. the UK. There are a million statistics showing the The clear point in this debate is that we have a problems that are facing people who are disabled or regulator to oversee and police the dangers of collusion looking for employment but cannot afford to heat their and uncompetitive conduct. That is where we should all homes. agree, and that is where the influence of Government This motion is very simple. It builds on the guarantee should lie. It is foolhardy for the right hon. Lady to that the Labour party is giving with regard to a price pretend like King Canute, or rather Queen Canute, that freeze in 2017 if elected. It builds on something that she can stop the natural movement of prices. It is deceit people in the UK were absolutely delighted with—the and delusion of which Labour Members should consider fact that we were looking after people who were struggling. themselves ashamed. This motion will go to show, even more, that the Labour party is on the side of the people while the Government 3.21 pm are on the side of big business. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Listening to this debate, it is amazing that Government Members have suggested 3.26 pm that this motion is a gimmick. It is far from being a gimmick. The right hon. Member for Rutland and Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): It is a Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) said that it is “populist pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian posturing”. It is about reducing energy bills for millions Lavery). I agree with him that there has been, and is, an of people in the UK, so of course it is populist, because issue about the cost of energy for people’s homes, but I people want that to happen. The Government are in a disagree with him about what we do about that. We 917 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 918 need to ensure that we can get the best prices passed Leader of the Opposition when he was the Energy down to the consumer, not only in the short term but Secretary and, for all their trumpeting, the big six the long term. The Government have brought in measures gained their power during that period. to get rid of the tariffs that were adding unnecessary My point is that we must not be flippant in this taxes to energy bills, increase the number of independent debate. This important debate means something to suppliers threefold, and reduce the 400 similar tariffs people in their homes. Those watching this debate to see that existed to just a few. Those are all going towards what will happen to energy prices do not want flashy protecting the consumer and getting prices down. gimmicks that, in reality, would not lower their energy The hon. Gentleman is right that the cost of energy is prices or give them a better standard of living. It is a large proportion of the cost of living and the money disingenuous to say that to people who want something that goes out of people’s homes. However, it is wrong to to be done. We need to do what has been outlined by offer people the false hope that through just a simple this Government—[Interruption.]—with whom I am black-and-white policy they will see their energy prices glad to have voted in the Division Lobby to reduce the reduced. For the past two or three years, the Labour cost of energy bills. party has run campaigns in my constituency, and in From a sedentary position, the right hon. Member many other constituencies, trumpeting Labour’s price for Don Valley asks, “What is it?” I will tell her what the freeze. There was a great big inflatable ice cube on the Government have outlined. It is the reduction to single high street, which, I hasten to add, did not have an figures of the number of tariffs, which under her image of a cap on top of it. The Labour party put out Government expanded ridiculously, confused the market leaflets in my constituency saying, “People tell me on and prevented people from being able to find the best the doorstep that they want an energy price freeze.” Of deals. It is the trebling of the number of independent course people want an energy price freeze, but what market suppliers, making the best energy deals available they are telling me on the doorstep is that they want the to people, such as my hon. Friend the Member for lowest possible energy prices. If we had had that freeze, Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who said he has reduced his the price would have been stuck at that level. Now, at energy costs by 25%. It is the reduction in the number of the very last minute, Labour is changing its policy silly tariffs brought in by the Labour party. All those around. Whatever words are used in points of order or factors are having an impact. [Interruption.] in the debate by the right hon. Member for Don Valley Labour Members are chuntering from a sedentary (Caroline Flint), the fact is that people’s perception of position because they do not like the truth. They want what has been said to them on the doorstep is that there to pull the wool over the eyes of the British public by would be a price freeze. Indeed, this very lunch time the saying that they will sort out the mess that they in many hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) said on ways created. Once again, they have come up with television that it is not a cap, but a price freeze. stupid, silly gimmicks, which, to be quite frank, the public can see through. This is a serious debate, and it Sir Alan Duncan: Have not Labour Members trapped needs to be taken seriously. themselves by gambling that prices would continue to rise? They announced a freeze, but, sadly, global markets are falling. 3.32 pm Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure Alec Shelbrooke: As my right hon. Friend will know, to follow the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell Labour Members would make very poor oil traders. If (Alec Shelbrooke), although he seems a bit out of touch they were in the business, the consequence would be with what is actually happening. losses that would eventually be passed on to the consumer I welcome this debate, which further highlights problems in higher prices. with energy costs across the country. Energy demand by The hon. Member for Wansbeck is right: this debate consumers must be met with reasonable prices for energy. is not flippant, but one about the costs of the energy Prices should reflect any reductions in the cost of energy as that people need to live. The Government should do all soon as possible. Labour has asked for the energy they can to try to reduce those costs, but they cannot do regulator to be given the power to take immediate it with gimmicks, or by coming up with a hare-brained action to ensure that reductions in wholesale costs are scheme for prices that is immediately altered by a change passed on to consumers immediately. in world markets. The Opposition have called this debate Only last week, the Government accepted that the purely to clarify points that they did not advertise or energy market was broken. That should not come as make to people on the doorstep. They are offering false news to them. It is certainly not new, because they were hope, and they are wrong to do so. told about the practice in a report by the energy regulator People are suffering from high energy costs, but those in 2011. In stark contrast to what the Secretary of State costs are now starting to come down. Notably, energy said about his hyperactive approach, the Government companies are offering deals to fix prices for the next seem to prefer to sit back and trust the large energy few years. They would not do so if they thought that companies to do the right thing on pricing. We want big energy prices were about to rise; they are doing so changes in our energy market. As Opposition Members because they can foresee that their costs will drop on have said, we want a price freeze until 2017—to allow energy markets. Some people like to control their finances energy prices to fall, but not rise—and we can then fix by entering into a deal with set prices, and they may the market. achieve a better deal, but others want to ride the market— As we know, hard-working families are now struggling just as people do with mortgages—and see where it to meet their energy costs, especially at this time of year. takes them. The fact is that we have increased competition Remembering that the next bill will cover the winter in the sector. Competition decreased under the now period, they fear that it will again be difficult to pay for 919 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 920

[Mr Iain McKenzie] do not have the luxury of a public sector pension. Private sector pension funds rely heavily on companies, their energy. At this time of year, families see their including energy companies, to ensure that working energy consumption rise. It will rise dramatically for people have decent and fair pensions at the end of their families up and down the country this year if the working lives. It is about time that Opposition Members weather that we have suffered in Scotland over the past realised that shareholders are millions of ordinary people. few weeks is anything to go by. Families especially use I welcome this debate—I really and truly do—because the basics of life, such as washing machines, more although what the Opposition are suggesting is ludicrous, regularly in the winter months, and tumble dryers will it is very interesting that the shadow Secretary of State be on constantly day in and day out, which will run up for Energy and Climate Change has chosen to use her their energy bills dramatically. Energy companies are Opposition day debate to talk all about energy and to fully aware of that, I am afraid, and are taking full forget all about climate change. She has realised one advantage. The cost of energy is now one of the largest thing that I could have told her and some Government demands on household income. Members many years ago, which is that people are far We have touched on the direct debit payments that more worried about rising energy bills than about so-called never seem to be adjusted down. Energy companies global warming. continue to take the same direct debit payment month I should declare an interest at this point, because I do after month, only for people to discover that they have not buy the consensus at all. Unfortunately, I do not overpaid by quite a sum. However, it never seems to be have time to point out the obvious flaws in the argument, returned unless people demand it. but suffice it to say that even those who buy the idea, In the time I have left, I will speak about the new hook, line and sinker, that the climate only started i.HEAT project in my constituency, which has been set changing 200 years ago—actually, what the up to tackle fuel poverty in communities across Inverclyde, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says is where we are seeing a dramatic increase in fuel poverty. very different from what the environmentalists say—must The project assists householders not only to access hard surely be aware that the UK emits only 2% of the measures such as insulation, but to make changes in world’s carbon emissions. Therefore, the policies that their energy consumption through behavioural changes. we have implemented, which have pushed up energy It provides step-by-step guidance on changing suppliers. prices, are having no impact whatsoever on the climate, Anyone who has tried to change suppliers knows that it and it is about time that we threw them overboard. is not an easy process. Some elderly households and If Members of all parties are interested in reducing families need to be taken through the process step-by-step energy bills—I hope they are, because I certainly am—they to ensure that they get the best deal. Community need to look at the fundamental point of how much participation is vital in engaging with householders and that energy costs to produce. I have recently seen figures building links with registered social landlords. Community that suggest, and I think at least one Member who is groups are brought into the equation to identify vulnerable present will correct me if I am wrong, that it costs about households and offer them assistance with energy-related £20 per megawatt-hour to generate our electricity from issues. coal, about £40 per megawatt-hour to do so from gas, The project offers free impartial advice and advocacy about £95 per megawatt-hour with subsidies to do so support to anyone across Inverclyde. It has had a significant from nuclear or onshore wind and a lot more to do so effect. In its brief few months, it has already pulled from offshore wind and other renewables. It is a almost £1 million into my community to tackle fuel fundamental economic fact that if we want to reduce poverty. It is going a great deal of the way towards electricity prices, we need to ensure that as much electricity ensuring that households have energy-efficient homes as possible is generated from coal and gas, not from and the benefits that they bring, as well as the support expensive renewables. That is one sure fire way to bring that they need to meet their increasing fuel bills. I am prices down. always amazed at the lack of energy efficiency that is built into new homes. That is an ongoing problem. Dr Whitehead: The hon. Gentleman presents a bit of Equally, businesses suffer from high energy costs. a puzzle. How does he explain his own Government’s Low energy costs will attract businesses and jobs to the recently rolled out policy of putting 11p on everybody’s area. It is like back to the future in Inverclyde, where we bills precisely to generate more power for consumers are looking at hydro projects to support businesses and from gas and coal? It has nothing to do with climate subsidise their energy costs. change; it is just an 11p increase in people’s bills. Today, Labour is challenging the Government to back our plans— David T. C. Davies: The hon. Gentleman would have to ask a member of the Government about Government Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. policies. I have always taken a rather different view on energy, as he will be well aware—that we ought to 3.37 pm generate it from the cheapest sources possible, which at David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): My colleagues the moment are coal and gas. That would bring prices have done a very good job of rubbishing the economics down. behind this ludicrous Labour policy. I do not need to Of course, there is more that we could do to bring add much, except to say that we have heard some down prices. Currently, about 40% of our electricity— deprecating comments about shareholders. Opposition actually 47%, I see from my notes—comes from gas. It Members tend to forget that shareholders are not toffs is worrying that Opposition Members are so quick to walking around the City in top hats. Shareholders are rule out the possibility of hydraulic fracturing as a millions and millions of ordinary working people who means of getting our own gas out of the ground. That 921 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 922 energy technology could generate thousands of well-paid may already have a debt with an existing supplier that jobs and deliver cheaper prices to consumers. It certainly means new suppliers will not take them on. The idea is a will not do any harm, and provided that all the fallacy. Switching to new entrants in the market will not environmental safeguards are put in place, to which we address the problems that we face with energy prices. As are absolutely committed, we should explore that the hon. Members for Glasgow North West (John technology. Robertson) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) mentioned, Finally, I turn to smart meters. Like many people, I fuel poverty is at the root of this issue, and we must do have a smartphone. Nobody forced me to buy one; they something about it. were out there in the shops and somebody else bought I talk about Scotland because that is what I know one, and it looked like good technology so I went out best. The Scottish Government have invested £300 million and bought one. I have absolutely nothing against smart since 2009 on a raft of fuel poverty and energy efficiency meters. If somebody wants to produce one and put it on programmes, and they will spend a further £94 million sale in Currys, I might think about it. What I object to this year and next. Figures from Energy Action Scotland strongly is the idea—an anti-conservative one, in my show that in 2013-14 an average of £36.48 central opinion—that we will all be forced to have them. Government funding was invested in energy efficiency The latest report I have seen on smart meters, from programmes for low-income households in Scotland, June, suggests that the price of putting them in has gone compared with £31.31 in Wales, £27.55 in Northern up to £11 billion, and there is a possibility of its going Ireland, and a paltry £3.52 in England. much higher if people are not as enthusiastic about The number of households in fuel poverty continues them as the Government think. I am certainly not to be a disgrace. The 2013 Scottish house condition enthusiastic about them. That £11 billion will simply be survey shows that 39.1% of Scottish households were in added to our energy bills, but we are told that it does fuel poverty. Last year, despite the many schemes aimed not matter because there will be £17.1 billion of benefits. at reducing fuel poverty, that number increased by Of course, if we look at the report carefully it is clear 100,000 to reach 940,000. That increase is appalling, that those benefits, if they ever arise, will not come and it is almost entirely down to the rise in fuel prices. through until about 2030. One of those benefits is that Indeed, it has been estimated that the fuel poverty rate people will be using less electricity, which will presumably for 2013 would have been 11% rather than 39%, if fuel be because their prices have gone up because they have prices had risen in line with inflation between 2002 and a smart meter. Some of the benefit calculations have 2013. That demonstrates a fundamental failure of the been derived from the fact that the Government will be UK regulated energy market. paying less of the taxes that they are effectively imposing on themselves for carbon emissions. It is all smoke and The UK Government’s approach is to give lectures mirrors, and a return of £17 billion on a risky £11 billion on switching, but that will not fix the problem. In investment over 15 years is frankly a pretty poor one Scotland there is a more determined attempt to approach anyway. I suggest that the Government might want to the issue through home energy efficiency programmes, think again about that. which also helps combat climate change—I do not accept anything said by the hon. Member for Monmouth It is great news that the shadow Secretary of State (David T. C. Davies) on that issue. However, all that is has used her Opposition day debate for this subject. Let being wiped out by the inexorable rise in fuel prices, and us talk about energy prices and getting them down as the changes made by the UK Government to the energy low as possible. People have a right to cheap energy. I companies obligation have impacted Scotland adversely. knock on thousands of doors—I am up for election in a few months, like everyone else, so I am putting my I understand Labour’s position on a freeze or cap, or money where my mouth is—and people in my constituency whatever it now wishes to call it, but there may be are more worried about rising fuel prices than about the difficulties with that approach. Having said that, I am non-existent rise in temperatures. No rise has taken prepared to ask my colleagues to support the motion place since 1997. It is the economic climate we should since I am becoming fed up with the actions of energy be worrying about, not the geographical climate. companies. I have often said that energy companies offering deals for insulating homes and so on is perhaps not the best approach, because people no longer trust 3.44 pm energy suppliers—hardly surprising, given what is happening Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): For those of us who with some of them. We must do all we can to assist have taken part in a few of these debates, there seems to vulnerable customers, but wholesale prices are falling be a depressing familiarity to the arguments that are put and that has not been adequately reflected in the retail forward. Today, the Secretary of State has told us that price of energy. switching is the answer. To my mind, and based on my The motions wishes to put a statutory duty on the experience, switching supplier is subject to the law of regulator, but as I said in an intervention, my experience diminishing returns. Someone might get a better deal of regulators does not fill me with confidence that that the first time they switch, but they will not get a much would happen quickly, even with a statutory duty. Indeed, better deal the second or third time. Switching is a I fear that it would end up being kicked into the long limited answer to some of those problems. grass as the regulator takes its time, holds an endless The right hon. Gentleman mentioned new entrants investigation into the matter, considers the factors leading to the market. Yes, there are new entrants, but many are to increases, analyses price movements and so on—we internet based and depend on direct debit, and the very all know what Ofgem and the Competition and Markets people whom we most need to help with lower fuel Authority are like. We might all have retired before we prices are those least able to take advantage of those have a decision, and matters will have moved on to a deals. Many perhaps do not have a bank account or new price cycle by then. If we are going to impose such 923 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 924

[Mr Mike Weir] The best and simplest proposals to reduce energy prices are to reduce tariffs so that people know what the a duty, we must ensure a strict and short time limit for prices are; put people on the lowest tariff that is best for considering the issue and coming to a decision, so that them; and roll back green levies, which will save in total people get the benefit— £250 to £300 a year for our constituents. They are not an ill-conceived sham, which is what Labour’s proposal Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. is. Labour’s proposal is no way to run an energy policy and no way to run a Government. 3.49 pm 3.53 pm Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to the on the élan, and not a little brass neck, with which she follow the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher outlined her case. There is no disguising the fact, try as Pincher), but I think he misrepresents the words of the she might, that Labour’s energy policy is in chaos. If she chief executive of E.ON in the Select Committee. I takes the trouble to read her leader’s speech at the party certainly never heard him saying those words about the conference—the one that the right hon. Member for Leader of the Opposition and his energy policy. I can Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) wrote down and understand energy companies feeling uncomfortable therefore remembered—she will see that he said time when we have a reset proposal for the energy market after time after time that he would introduce an energy and closer scrutiny, but I make no apologies. If it is in price freeze: never a mention of a cap and never a the interests of the consumer, we should move forward mention of prices going down, only a price freeze. It as soon as possible. was only after Labour realised it made that schoolboy error that it morphed its policy into a price cap. It now Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) seems to have transmuted even further. It is a policy in (LD): The important thing is to be concerned about chaos. current consumers and their energy bills being as low as possible. However, we must also think about future Does it matter that Labour’s policy is in chaos? Yes it consumers and ensuring investment in supply and in does. Tony Cocker, the chief executive of E.ON, a networks. The lesson from when Labour was in Government company the right hon. Lady praised a short time ago, and we faced high gas prices is that it did not intervene said in evidence to the Energy and Climate Change in the market, but allowed the market to bring forward Committee that every time the Leader of the Opposition new investment that brought new supply and prices opens his mouth the cost of its capital goes up. Whatever down. we may think of the big six, we need those companies to invest in our energy infrastructure. In the past five Albert Owen: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his years, each of the big six has invested about £5 billion. intervention. I think he was complementing the previous We all accept, even the right hon. Lady does not demur, Labour Government on their handling of energy matters. that we need to invest about £110 billion in the next If we get a new Labour Government, we will do exactly 10 years in our infrastructure—the pipes, pylons and the same thing: create the stability that has not been the power stations—to keep the lights switched on. At there. [Interruption.] I am pleased that the right hon. the current rate of spend, the big six are going to invest Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) about £70 billion only, which is an investment gap of has returned to the Chamber. When gas and oil prices £40 billion. Unless we can encourage those firms and rise, the suppliers rush to pass on the costs to us, yet others to invest more, the shortfall will have to be made when we read in the papers that the oil price has up by the consumer through higher bills or the taxpayer collapsed and gas prices are falling, we have to wait a in higher taxes, or we will have to borrow the money, long time before it comes through on our bills. meaning that market interest rates may go up and everyone’s mortgages go up as well. The first thing we need to do is The Labour party’s proposal has a very real negative “give the regulator the teeth to order that those reductions are effect on people’s energy prices and on their lives. Just at made”— the time when we are discouraging investment from the not my word, but the words of the Prime Minister big six, Labour’s proposal will entrench their position. before the election. I cannot accuse him of being consistent As Ovo Energy and First Utility—the provider of choice between what he said before the election and what he for the Leader of the Opposition—have said, the proposal has said since taking office, but he should be in the for a price freeze will drive them out of the marketplace. Lobby with Labour today, supporting our proposals. It will reduce competition, so there will be even fewer I have long felt that our constituents’ concerns have companies to invest and fewer companies to buy energy not been put forward. However, I praise the Energy from. The best, simplest and right approach to deal and Climate Change Committee for producing a with the cost of energy for our constituents is to reduce number of reports on this subject, including one on the number of the confusing array of tariffs that have prices, profits and poverty in the 2012-13 session. The discouraged people from switching. big issue then—and rightly so—was the confusion and complexity of bills, to which many Members have referred. Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP): Will The outcome was good. We recommended that the the hon. Gentleman give way? Government give extra powers and responsibilities to the regulator to act in the interests of consumers, and Christopher Pincher: I will not give way. I will let the the Government enacted just that. We are asking for the hon. Gentleman make his speech later on, if he so same today, and if the Government could do it then, wishes. they can do it now. At the time, consumer groups 925 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 926 highlighted how, when the price of oil and gas fell, it did that has been pursued. It is clear that Labour sources not follow through to bills, and Ofgem cited evidence realise this and provide quotes that admit it. A Labour that source spoke to The Sun and “Mail Online”, so let me “bills respond more rapidly to rising supplier costs compared acquaint Labour Members with this for the better with falling costs.” understanding of their own policy. This Labour source As has been said, the regulator’s remit is to protect said, and Labour Members should listen carefully: consumers. It could intervene sensibly, conduct reviews “The freeze was announced at a time when energy prices were in its own time—it does not have to wait—and ensure rising inexorably—nobody was talking about prices coming down, that the consumer gets a better deal. That is what it is or even thinking about it. Obviously, if bills are coming down at there for. the election there may have to be a bit of rebranding to make it clear it will operate as a price cap instead.” I am pleased with Labour’s policy on energy prices What we are seeing, and what this debate is all about, is and strengthening the regulator. Like other Members, I the screeching of brakes and the squeal of tyres as the have concerns about those off the gas grid. As part of Labour bandwagon puts into effect another mad U-turn its market reset, Labour will be looking to regulate that that is ill thought out and entirely chaotic, as the freeze area. My constituents who are not on the gas grid are is rebranded as a cap to take advantage of the reality paying considerably more in their unregulated areas—they that petrol, fuel and energy prices are now falling. do not have dual fuel, and their prices have been rising steadily—so I am pleased about the reset and the price freeze, or cap. Whatever hon. Members want to call it, Mark Reckless: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely the point is we are going to look at the energy market. It correct in the criticisms he makes of the Opposition, is fractured, and a fracture takes an awful long time to but does he, like them, support the increase in the levy heal, unless immediate action is taken. control framework and green levies from £2.3 billion in 2012 to £9.8 billion in 2020—a quadrupling of money We should be taking that immediate action. Government added to bills or to taxpayers? Members have the opportunity today to stop standing up for the big companies and the industry and instead stand up for their constituents. If they are knocking on Charlie Elphicke: I am proud that this Government doors, they will be hearing how consumers are being have rolled back the green levies by £50, and I note that, hurt by rising energy prices. I have seen the bills of my not so long ago, the shadow Secretary of State was constituents, very recently, which show not a fall but an talking about green taxes as being “only” £113. I note, increase in the cost of energy since last year—and in too, that the Leader of the Opposition wants to that period we had a relatively hot summer and a increase green levies and put more greenery in our relatively mild autumn and winter. What is coming will electricity bills, driving up the cost of power. We know be even harder for people. Yes, there will be a slight drop that the Opposition have set out that policy and that in prices, and I do welcome E.ON taking the lead, but we have taken action to safeguard the interests and why has it done it just for gas? When gas prices were position of consumers. [Interruption.] If the shadow rising, the big six told us it had an immediate effect on Secretary of State wants to make an intervention, I electricity prices, yet they are not now reducing their would welcome it. electricity prices. Caroline Flint: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that In the last year, the wholesale price of gas has dropped when the Government let the energy companies off the by 20%, but the consumer has seen just a 3.5% drop—from hook, this meant 400,000 fewer households got insulation, one energy company. We need to rebalance the energy and that a huge amount of the benefits going to the market. We need to stand up, and be proud to stand up, energy companies was never passed on to their customers? for our constituents. The motion gives us the opportunity to follow the Prime Minister’s wise words. Instead of playing King Canute, instead of being ridiculous—he Charlie Elphicke: It is pity to hear that from the has been ridiculed by Members of his own party—the shadow Secretary of State who served in a Government Prime Minister, as well as all Government Members, who allowed the sort of integration in the energy market should stand up for our constituents, join us in the that permitted generators to integrate vertically so that Lobby to support our constituents, who send us here to providers at the downstream end were able to have an protect their interests, and get the regulator to do its unnecessary and wrongful monopolistic position. job. That brings me to the key point that switching is a really important part of a competitive market. It is a real shame that the Opposition have sneered at switching 3.59 pm and mocked its importance. They seem to want some Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): The longer this debate kind of monopolistic Leviathan of energy oligopolies goes on, the clearer one can see why, under Labour, gas that they had when they were in office. I think that is bills doubled, electricity bills went up by 15% and fuel wrong and that we need to encourage competition and poverty trebled. Labour Members like to talk the game switching. When I switched, I made a substantial saving when it comes to lower prices, populism and easy answers, and all Members should encourage people to do the but the reality, as we saw when they were in office, is same. We should be there for our constituents as consumers, that their measures are ineffective and often counter- helping them by urging them to be aware of how to get productive. the best possible deal. Let us take their current price freeze idea. If Labour’s What we have seen in today’s debate is complete policy had been implemented when it was announced, chaos in the Labour party’s position on the energy energy consumers would have lost out. Today’s consumers market, just as we have seen complete chaos when it are better off with the Conservative/coalition policy comes to their economic policy. Time and again, and so 927 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 928

[Charlie Elphicke] energy for the customer—not too much and not too little—at the time when the customer needs it, at the close to an election, the Labour party is simply all over time of gate closure. If the outcome of that hedging the place when it comes to the kind of policies that go turns out to be wrong, the regulator will fine those who to the heart of how our consumers, our constituents are undertaking the process. On such occasions, hedgers and our people will live. That underlines the fact that we will weigh the cost of the cash-out fine against the cost need a long-term economic plan, which Government of getting the balance wrong. So a range of other Members have, and that this Government’s longer-term factors are involved in that hedging, over and above the planning on the energy market is clearly the right way simple question of buying long and hoping that some forward, getting consumers the best deal. money can be made out of it. One of the strategies of the larger energy companies 4.4 pm will, in fact, be to buy long—rather more than they can Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Listening conceivably hope to provide for their customers—and to the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) was a shape the amount as gate closure approaches. If the rather curious experience, given that more or less the markets are volatile, they will adopt strategies which get entire policy of the Department of Energy and Climate that right. The ability of the regulator to undertake Change under the current Government, particularly as those changes is compatible with the process leading up it relates to such matters as contracts for difference and to gate closure, notwithstanding what has been suggested the levy control framework, is based on the assumption this afternoon. of inexorably rising energy prices. In fact, the policy is Finally, I smiled a little at the haste with which the rather falling to bits, because the Department can no Secretary of State, in particular, talked of reducing longer make that assumption. The Opposition’s proposal, energy prices, given that, as I said earlier, the recent on the other hand, is based on the reality of the regulator capacity auctions have potentially raised prices by £11 per as we now find it, and the reality of what will continue customer. I may have inadvertently said 11p in an to be a volatile energy market over the coming period. intervention. The sum is in fact £11 per customer—I I smile a little at some of the assumptions made by thank Tim Probert for that proper figure—and that Members about what the regulator actually is. It has gives the lie to the idea that this is all about price always been the case—or, at least, it has been the case reduction. It is about disguising price increases in the during recent periods—that the regulator has done a context of regulation which should be in place to ensure great deal more than the right hon. Member for Rutland that these things work properly in the future. and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) believes that it has. As he said, he believes that the regulator simply prevents 4.10 pm collusion, but it performs a number of other functions, relating to, for instance, the close of market, cash-out Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ and balancing, which are integral to the energy market Co-op): We have, as is customary, had an interesting as it stands. At present, however, the regulator is itself and wide-ranging debate, and we have been able to regulated asymmetrically when it comes to its ability to establish beyond peradventure three important facts, intervene in that volatile market. Our proposal, which is mostly through the contribution of the Secretary of very simple, is to remove some of that asymmetricalness, State, I have to say, who is, characteristically, not in his if such a word exists— place for the end of the debate; that happens frequently. The first of them is that over the past 12 months as Sir Alan Duncan: Asymmetry. wholesale energy costs have fallen, consumer bills from the largest suppliers have not followed. Secondly, as my Dr Whitehead: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. We right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline propose to remove some of that asymmetry. While we Flint) said and the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) would not expect a regulator to have a knee-jerk reaction also made clear, the least well-off—those with the lowest to every change in a volatile market, we would, in the disposable incomes—have had the highest increase in event of a considerable drift between those changes and their bills and have the lowest rates of switching. Thirdly, what energy companies are doing, expect the regulator as has become typical in these debates, the Energy to be able to do what the public would expect it to do: Secretary made a lengthy and confused speech, and we would expect it to be able to intervene on behalf of four years into his job he is neither in control of energy the consumer and bring those arrangements into line. policy nor intends to do anything about the issues we That seems to me to be a straightforward and laudable are debating. Constituents in all parts of the UK will proposal, not only from the point of view of the consumer, find that an extraordinary and unacceptable state of but because it constitutes a recognition of the reality of affairs. markets. We know that the regulator is concerned. It made The objections to the proposal that have been expressed that clear in its state of the market assessment, and also make me smile a little. We are told that hedging and there is an asymmetrical approach between cost increases purchasing strategies would not put up with it. On the and decreases in consumer bills—the rockets and feathers basis of what I have heard from the Secretary of State argument. We know it thinks that that is worse than it this afternoon, I think that he has done for utility was the last time it looked at it in 2011. We also know as hedging roughly what Edward Scissorhands did for real of today that Ofgem thinks that the E.ON change is a hedging. small step in the right direction, rather than some The operation of hedging in energy and utility markets demonstration, as the Secretary of State seems complacently is not the same as it is in a number of other areas. That to believe, of a dynamic market working in the interests hedging, those purchases and that trading must take of consumers. We know from the figures that Ofgem account of factors such as securing the right amount of has access to that over the course of the last 12 months 929 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 930 the profit margin on the retail part of the businesses of day-ahead and forward markets over a sustained period. the largest companies has increased from 4% to 8%, and Over that period, wholesale costs are down and that has that is without taking into account the generation businesses not been reflected in consumers’ bills. and the margins achieved by the integrated companies The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec in that area. Shelbrooke) is a less frequent speaker in these debates, The Secretary of State gave away his real attitude, although he is an habitual sedentary chunterer. We have probably inadvertently. He claimed that people could, if all become used to that—it is part of his charm. He will they really cared, get a better deal. They might not care know that he voted back in June against the regulator in Kingston or Surbiton, but in many communities being able to take action for consumers. His constituents around the country represented by Members of all will find that difficult to understand, and I am sure they parties they do care. They do care that they have had will be reminded of that fact between now and May. higher bills—£260 higher since 2010. They do care that Because he did not take part in previous such debates, they see wholesale prices reducing but their standard he seemed unaware that, as my right hon. Friend the tariffs not following, and they do care that they have Member for Don Valley made clear, the policy we have heard this afternoon from the Secretary of State a had since autumn 2013 has been transparently set out in litany of excuses, distortions and complacent disinterest this House. She and I have been asked a number of in doing anything at all about the situation we find times about the price freeze, and we have made it clear ourselves in. that the policy is to prevent increases in bills, not reductions. The first time I did so was during a speech at I agreed with much that the hon. Member for South an afternoon fringe meeting at the September 2013 Suffolk (Mr Yeo) said—that will probably not do him party conference, which was recorded by the BBC, so any good with his own party, but given his recent the record is absolutely clear, as reflected in the comments experience with it, I doubt he cares very much, frankly. I of the energy correspondent of The Daily Telegraph. think it is disgraceful that demand-side management was less than 1% in the recent capacity market auction, David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con) rose— and that case was made prior to those auctions. I also Tom Greatrex: I am conscious that I do not have agree with his points on vertical integration. He knows, much time, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, unlike other Members who have tried to demonstrate who has been present for the debate but has not been their expertise in these areas, that the proposals we set able to contribute. out in November 2013 included looking at, and making sure there was, a proper ring fence between the supply David Mowat: I have a quick question on the price and generation arms of the companies precisely for the freeze—or price thaw, as it now is. In the event that reason he gave in relation to transparency. Where I prices fall during the time of the price freeze, will disagree with him—and the hon. Member for Tamworth companies be permitted to increase them subsequently, (Christopher Pincher) made a similar case—is on the and if so, to what level: the previous level, the new impact on investment. I think both of them will recall, level—or will some pronouncement be made on that if the hon. Member for Tamworth was present on that subject? day, that when Andrew Buglass from the Royal Bank of Tom Greatrex: I am slightly surprised at the hon. Scotland, one of the biggest investors in clean energy, Gentleman. In the conversations we have from time to came before the Energy and Climate Change Committee, time, he usually demonstrates a much better grasp of he was explicitly asked whether he thought the Labour the issues. He knows that our policy is a freeze on price party policy on energy prices was affecting investment increases, which does not prevent decreases. That policy decisions, and he made it clear that the investors he is in place because of the increased margin that was talked to made between 2008 and 2009, when the same problem “take a lot of comfort from the cross-party support that has been occurred: wholesale prices went down by 45% but that shown through the EMR process”, reduction was not passed on to consumers. That is the in terms of supporting contracts for difference and the reality, which has affected his constituents, mine and framework, if not the detail, of the capacity market those of every Member of this House. The Government mechanism. That is what is most important in relation should ensure that the regulator addresses that, in line to investment, and I am sure the hon. Member for with the motion before us. South Suffolk knows and understands that. David Mowat: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? My hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow North Tom Greatrex: I will not give way again because I West (John Robertson) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) want to respond to more of the contributions that were helpfully reminded us with both passion and precision—as made. they frequently do in such debates, and on the Select My hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde Committee of which they are both members—of the (Mr McKenzie) made clear the importance of taking impact of high fuel prices on consumers. My hon. action on fuel poverty. My hon. Friend the Member for Friend the Member for Glasgow North West reflected Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), in a telling contribution, on the power of big suppliers who could, with the will, helpfully reminded us of what the Prime Minister said do so much more. about the importance of the regulator being able to take The right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton action when the fairness principle is not applied—an (Sir Alan Duncan) gave a spirited lecture on posturing—a important point that we should all be aware of. My hon. subject he appears to have great expertise in. He Friend also touched on the issue of off-grid customers. seemed not to be aware that Ofgem has access to The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) market data and can therefore observe trends. This is quoted from an anonymous Labour source in his not just about one market, but the combination of the speech, which effectively defended energy companies 931 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 932

[Tom Greatrex] Albert Owen: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s party political speech—[Laughter.] Conservative Members rather than standing up for his constituents. A named may laugh, but they are on the wrong side of the Labour source—me—can tell him that that will not go argument when it comes to consumers. On the down well with his constituents in the 113 days we have 3.5% reduction in the price of E.ON’s gas, is she as left until the general election. My hon. Friend the confused as I am about why there has been no throughput Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) made to the company’s electricity price, which is not being some important points about the regulator’s role in reduced? When gas prices go up, it is the companies, not standing up for consumers when it is clear that the the Secretary of State, that tell us they have to follow competition in the market that we would like to see is suit and increase electricity prices. demonstrably failing. This is a simple, straightforward and compelling Amber Rudd: Electricity prices have not fallen at that proposition before the House: where there is a failure of rate. I must gently tell the hon. Gentleman off for the competitive market dynamics—we have seen precious suggesting that I might be trying to “weaponise” this little evidence of those in recent months—that the important subject. That is something we should never do. Secretary of State and others are proposing, the regulator We know that the cheapest tariff currently on the can help to focus the attention of suppliers through the market is £100 cheaper than the cheapest tariff a year use of a back-stop power to ensure that the relationship ago, and that if Labour had been able to freeze prices in between wholesale prices and the retail prices consumers October 2013, customers would already be £100 a year pay is properly applied. If the suppliers do not act, the worse off. Labour’s price freeze proposal is preventing regulator will be able to step in and make good the bills from falling further. I know that the right hon. situation. The Secretary of State has demonstrated Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) likes to take again today that he is out of touch, out of his depth comments such as these as confirmation of an expectation and, unfortunately, almost out of time. I am a generous- of another Labour Government, but the frisson of fear spirited individual, however, and as he seeks to secure a from the market at the prospect of the chaos that would lasting legacy as his tenure in his job comes to an end, I ensue under a Labour Government is resulting in suppliers will give him one last chance. He can now vote for the being unsure about making price reductions. motion and act to ensure that energy cost reductions Labour does not understand that we need to fix the are passed on to consumers. I strongly advise him to do market for good, not freeze it. That means taking policy so, and I commend the motion to the House. costs off bills, forcing suppliers to be transparent about their costs and profits, and getting behind the independent 4.20 pm inquiry, which reports in June and has the power to break up Labour’s big six. Unfortunately, the Labour The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy party appears to think that it can make up for its total and Climate Change (Amber Rudd): This has been a failure to reform the energy market during its 13 years welcome opportunity to debate one of the biggest issues in office by advocating short-term gimmicks. This goes in British politics, and there have been some lively to the heart of the debate on the future of the energy contributions from both sides of the Chamber. Helping market and the debate that we have heard today. households to stay warmer for less has been the No. 1 Let us consider for a moment what regulating to priority for this Government. That is why, since coming require that suppliers pass on reductions in wholesale into office, we have been working hard to make the costs would mean in practice. For a start, it is likely to energy market more competitive and to break the mean more volatile prices for customers. Gas wholesale stranglehold of Labour’s big six. prices can change significantly and unexpectedly. If We have taken action to encourage switching, to companies have to put prices down immediately following reduce policy costs on bills and to support the first a reduction in wholesale prices, they will have to put competition inquiry since privatisation. Indeed, since them up immediately after a rise. So I think we can see 2010, the number of independent suppliers has nearly from the contributions we have heard and from the trebled, to 19, and their market share is now the highest comments from people in the market that that would on record, at 10.5%. We have slashed the number of not work. energy tariffs and ensured that suppliers are putting Let me address some of the comments made in this people on the cheapest variable tariff, helping afternoon’s enthusiastic debate. The right hon. Member consumers to save up to £200. New figures suggest that for Neath (Mr Hain) told us about the Severn barrage the savings could be up to £300. We supported the first project and his view about the opportunities for cheap competition inquiry since privatisation. The Labour electricity from it. We all listened carefully and I thank Government did none of those things when they had him for his contribution. My hon. Friend the Member the chance. for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), the chair of the Energy and Yesterday, E.ON announced that it was cutting its Climate Change Committee, highlighted other areas standard variable gas price by 3.5%. That is very welcome where we could bear down on costs and the action that news for households, and energy suppliers must continue Ofgem needed to take. The hon. Members for Glasgow to pass on savings from lower gas prices. Yet the chief North West (John Robertson), for Ynys Môn (Albert executive officer of E.ON has admitted that, given the Owen) and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom possibility of a price freeze, the company was “undoubtedly Greatrex) spoke about fuel poverty. I wish to remind the taking a risk”. We should be clear that this reduction House of this Government’s absolute commitment to would not have happened under the Opposition’s ludicrous reducing fuel poverty. We have made that central to our price freeze policy, which would have resulted in high policies since we came to office. We recognise that bills being frozen until 2017 and families being unable vulnerable consumers need more action to help them to feel the benefit of falling global gas prices. take action to save money. 933 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 934

One point made by the hon. Members for Ynys Môn for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) made the case and for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) is that not everybody for the regulator to regulate hedging policies, which is, I is able to take action to switch, and they questioned the think, a little ambitious. value of switching. That is why we have committed We have had an excellent debate, which, as always, nearly £2 million over two years to fund community has raised a lot of interest from fellow Members. But let and voluntary organisations through the big energy me make the point that it is only by providing the right saving network; our network provides specially trained competitive framework that we will help to ensure that volunteers to help consumers in communities across the investment in our energy markets continues to flow, that country to get better deals from energy suppliers and industry can grow and that the markets deliver for reduce their energy bills—this helped more than 90,000 consumers. Only through fixing the market for good—not people last winter. We know that there are people out interesting, temporary, short-term gimmicks—can we there who need our help and we are determined to make truly help consumers to stay warmer for less. I urge the sure that they get it, so that the most vulnerable are House to reject the motion. never left behind. Question put. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and The House divided: Ayes 228, Noes 305. Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) gave us an excellent talk on Division No. 132] [4.30 pm Labour party policy, saying that the tide can go out but the Opposition think, extraordinarily and Canute-like, AYES that they can bring it back. I was grateful for the contribution from the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Abbott, Ms Diane Danczuk, Simon Lavery), who chose to characterise this debate as being Abrahams, Debbie David, Wayne about big business versus people. He is quite wrong. Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Davidson, Mr Ian This is not an example of that; it is an example of an Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Davies, Geraint Alexander, Heidi De Piero, Gloria energy market that needs to be regulated well. I urge Ali, Rushanara Denham, rh Mr John Opposition Members not always to think of businesses, Allen, Mr Graham Dobson, rh Frank which provide investment and employment, and which Anderson, Mr David Doran, Mr Frank are vital to our economy, as somehow being wicked. Ashworth, Jonathan Doughty, Stephen Austin, Ian Dowd, Jim My hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell Bailey, Mr Adrian Doyle, Gemma (Alec Shelbrooke) made his usual excellent contribution, Bain, Mr William Dromey, Jack commenting on behalf of his constituents. He stressed Banks, Gordon Dugher, Michael that not only is Labour’s proposal wrong, but it could Barron, rh Kevin Durkan, Mark cost constituents money. May I say what a pleasure it Bayley, Sir Hugh Eagle, Ms Angela was to visit him in Kippax in his constituency to see the Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria excellent work being done for home efficiencies in his Begg, Dame Anne Edwards, Jonathan area? The hon. Member for Inverclyde raised issues on Benn, rh Hilary Efford, Clive behalf of consumers, specifically referring to direct Berger, Luciana Ellman, Mrs Louise debits. May I point out to him that this Government Betts, Mr Clive Engel, Natascha have regulated for money accumulated by energy companies Blackman-Woods, Roberta Esterson, Bill Blears, rh Hazel Evans, Chris under direct debit always to be returned by the end of Blenkinsop, Tom Farrelly, Paul the year? I was interested to hear of the project he Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Field, rh Mr Frank mentioned, whereby there was local working with his Brennan, Kevin Fitzpatrick, Jim vulnerable constituents. Brown, Lyn Flello, Robert Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flint, rh Caroline My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David Brown, Mr Russell Flynn, Paul T. C. Davies) pointed out that shareholders of these Bryant, Chris Fovargue, Yvonne energy companies play an important part in our community, Burden, Richard Francis, Dr Hywel too. It was good to hear of his enthusiasm for shale, Burnham, rh Andy Gardiner, Barry although less so for smart meters—let me reassure him Byrne, rh Mr Liam Gilmore, Sheila that they will not be compulsory. The hon. Member for Campbell, rh Mr Alan Glass, Pat Angus (Mr Weir) spoke about fuel poverty and he Campbell, Mr Ronnie Glindon, Mrs Mary should be in no doubt of our efforts to help people out Caton, Martin Godsiff, Mr Roger of fuel poverty—we will continue to do that. I should Champion, Sarah Goodman, Helen point out to him that switching is an important part of Chapman, Jenny Greatrex, Tom not only delivering lower bills on a one-off basis, as he Clark, Katy Green, Kate described, but stimulating other independent companies Clwyd, rh Ann Greenwood, Lilian Coaker, Vernon Griffith, Nia to join the market. Competition is the way to reduce the Connarty, Michael Gwynne, Andrew costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth Cooper, rh Yvette Hain, rh Mr Peter (Christopher Pincher) highlighted the chaos of the Labour Corbyn, Jeremy Hamilton, Mr David party and the need for energy companies to generate Crausby, Mr David Hamilton, Fabian funds to invest—he is quite right. Creagh, Mary Hanson, rh Mr David My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Creasy, Stella Harman, rh Ms Harriet Elphicke) contrasted the chaos of Labour’s policies, Cryer, John Harris, Mr Tom both in this area and more generally, with the competence Cunningham, Alex Havard, Mr Dai Cunningham, Mr Jim Healey, rh John and careful planning, which is needed for a stable Cunningham, Sir Tony Hepburn, Mr Stephen economy, under this Government. The hon. Member Curran, Margaret Heyes, David 935 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 936

Hillier, Meg O’Donnell, Fiona Bacon, Mr Richard Eustice, George Hilling, Julie Onwurah, Chi Baker, Steve Evans, Graham Hodge, rh Margaret Osborne, Sandra Baldry, rh Sir Tony Evans, Jonathan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert Barclay, Stephen Evans, Mr Nigel Hood, Mr Jim Pearce, Teresa Barker, rh Gregory Evennett, Mr David Hopkins, Kelvin Perkins, Toby Baron, Mr John Fabricant, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Pound, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Fallon, rh Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Powell, Lucy Bebb, Guto Farron, Tim Jackson, Glenda Qureshi, Yasmin Beith, rh Sir Alan Field, Mark James, Mrs Siân C. Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bellingham, Mr Henry Foster, rh Mr Don Jamieson, Cathy Reed, Mr Jamie Benyon, Richard Fox,rhDrLiam Jarvis, Dan Reeves, Rachel Beresford, Sir Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Johnson, Diana Reynolds, Emma Berry, Jake Freer, Mike Jones, Graham Riordan, Mrs Linda Bingham, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Jones, Susan Elan Ritchie, Ms Margaret Binley, Mr Brian Fuller, Richard Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Robertson, John Birtwistle, Gordon Gale, Sir Roger Kane, Mike Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Blackman, Bob Garnier, Sir Edward Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rotheram, Steve Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mark Keeley, Barbara Roy, Mr Frank Blunt, Crispin Gauke, Mr David Kendall, Liz Ruane, Chris Boles, Nick George, Andrew Khan, rh Sadiq Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Bone, Mr Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Lammy, rh Mr David Sarwar, Anas Bottomley, Sir Peter Gilbert, Stephen Lavery, Ian Sawford, Andy Brady, Mr Graham Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lazarowicz, Mark Seabeck, Alison Brake, rh Tom Glen, John Leslie, Chris Sharma, Mr Virendra Bray, Angie Goldsmith, Zac Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sheerman, Mr Barry Brazier, Mr Julian Goodwill, Mr Robert Lewis, Mr Ivan Sheridan, Jim Brine, Steve Graham, Richard Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Shuker, Gavin Brokenshire, James Grant, Mrs Helen Love, Mr Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Brooke, rh Annette Gray, Mr James Lucas, Caroline Slaughter, Mr Andy Browne, Mr Jeremy Green, rh Damian Lucas, Ian Smith, Angela Bruce, Fiona Greening, rh Justine MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Nick Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Owen Burley, Mr Aidan Griffiths, Andrew Mahmood, Mr Khalid Spellar, rh Mr John Burns, Conor Gummer, Ben Mahmood, Shabana Straw, rh Mr Jack Burns, rh Mr Simon Gyimah, Mr Sam Malhotra, Seema Stringer, Graham Burstow, rh Paul Hague, rh Mr William Mann, John Stuart, Ms Gisela Burt, rh Alistair Halfon, Robert Marsden, Mr Gordon Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burt, Lorely Hames, Duncan Byles, Dan Hammond, Stephen McCabe, Steve Tami, Mark McCann, Mr Michael Cable, rh Vince Hands, rh Greg Thornberry, Emily McCarthy, Kerry Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark Timms, rh Stephen McClymont, Gregg Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Trickett, Jon McDonagh, Siobhain Carswell, Douglas Harris, Rebecca Turner, Karl McDonald, Andy Cash, Sir William Hart, Simon McDonnell, John Twigg, Derek Chapman, Jenny Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twigg, Stephen Chishti, Rehman Hayes, rh Mr John McGuire, rh Dame Anne Umunna, Mr Chuka Clappison, Mr James Heald, Sir Oliver McInnes, Liz Vaz, rh Keith Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris McKechin, Ann Vaz, Valerie Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hemming, John McKenzie, Mr Iain Walley, Joan Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Meale, Sir Alan Watson, Mr Tom Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Mearns, Ian Weir, Mr Mike Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Miliband, rh Edward Whitehead, Dr Alan Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Miller, Andrew Williams, Hywel Crabb, rh Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark Mitchell, Austin Williamson, Chris Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Moon, Mrs Madeleine Wilson, Sammy Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Morden, Jessica Winnick, Mr David Davey, rh Mr Edward Holloway, Mr Adam Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Davies, David T. C. Hopkins, Kris Morris, Grahame M. Wishart, Pete (Monmouth) Horwood, Martin Davies, Glyn Howarth, Sir Gerald (Easington) Woodcock, John Munn, Meg Davies, Philip Howell, John Wright, David Murphy, rh Mr Jim de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon Wright, Mr Iain Murphy, rh Paul Dinenage, Caroline Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Murray, Ian Tellers for the Ayes: Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Nandy, Lisa Bridget Phillipson and Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Nash, Pamela Nic Dakin Drax, Richard Jackson, Mr Stewart Duncan, rh Sir Alan James, Margot NOES Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenkin, Mr Bernard Adams, Nigel Amess, Sir David Dunne, Mr Philip Jenrick, Robert Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Afriyie, Adam Andrew, Stuart Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Aldous, Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew 937 Energy Prices14 JANUARY 2015 Energy Prices 938

Jones, rh Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Justin Jones, Mr Marcus Morris, David Rogerson, Dan Tredinnick, David Kawczynski, Daniel Morris, James Rosindell, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Kelly, Chris Mosley, Stephen Rudd, Amber Tyrie, Mr Andrew Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Mowat, David Russell, Sir Bob Uppal, Paul Kirby, Simon Mulholland, Greg Rutley, David Vaizey, Mr Edward Kwarteng, Kwasi Mundell, rh David Sanders, Mr Adrian Vara, Mr Shailesh Lamb, rh Norman Murray, Sheryll Scott, Mr Lee Vickers, Martin Latham, Pauline Murrison, Dr Andrew Selous, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Leadsom, Andrea Newmark, Mr Brooks Shelbrooke, Alec Walker, Mr Charles Lee, Dr Phillip Newton, Sarah Shepherd, Sir Richard Walker, Mr Robin Leech, Mr John Nokes, Caroline Simmonds, rh Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Leigh, Sir Edward Norman, Jesse Simpson, Mr Keith Walter, Mr Robert Lewis, Brandon Nuttall, Mr David Skidmore, Chris Ward, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Offord, Dr Matthew Smith, Chloe Watkinson, Dame Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ollerenshaw, Eric Smith, Henry Angela Lidington, rh Mr David Opperman, Guy Smith, Julian Webb, rh Steve Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Smith, Sir Robert Wheeler, Heather Lloyd, Stephen Paice, rh Sir James Soames, rh Sir Nicholas White, Chris Lopresti, Jack Parish, Neil Soubry, Anna Whittaker, Craig Loughton, Tim Patel, Priti Spelman, rh Mrs Whittingdale, Mr John Luff, Sir Peter Paterson, rh Mr Owen Caroline Wiggin, Bill Lumley, Karen Pawsey, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Willetts, rh Mr David Macleod, Mary Penning, rh Mike Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Main, Mrs Anne Penrose, John Stevenson, John Williams, Roger Maude, rh Mr Francis Percy, Andrew Stewart, Bob Williams, Stephen Maynard, Paul Perry, Claire Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin McCartney, Jason Phillips, Stephen Stewart, Rory Willott, rh Jenny McCartney, Karl Pickles, rh Mr Eric Streeter, Mr Gary Wilson, Mr Rob McIntosh, Miss Anne Pincher, Christopher Stride, Mel Wollaston, Dr Sarah McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Poulter, Dr Daniel Stuart, Mr Graham Wright, rh Jeremy McPartland, Stephen Pugh, John Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wright, Simon McVey, rh Esther Raab, Mr Dominic Sturdy, Julian Yeo, Mr Tim Menzies, Mark Randall, rh Sir John Swales, Ian Young, rh Sir George Metcalfe, Stephen Reckless, Mark Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Zahawi, Nadhim Miller, rh Maria Redwood, rh Mr John Swire, rh Mr Hugo Mills, Nigel Rees-Mogg, Jacob Syms, Mr Robert Tellers for the Noes: Milton, Anne Reevell, Simon Thornton, Mike Harriett Baldwin and Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Thurso, rh John Dr Thérèse Coffey Moore, rh Michael Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Mordaunt, Penny Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Question accordingly negatived. Morgan, rh Nicky Robertson, rh Sir Hugh 939 14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 940

Steel Industry Britain has a competitive advantage and which all play a significant role in downstream activities for the steel industry. 4.44 pm Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): I beg to move, Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): As someone who That this House recognises the importance of the UK steel is also from a family of steelworkers, it is good to hear industry including as a provider of highly-skilled jobs and research my hon. Friend speak strongly about the traditions of and development; values the steel supply chain which supports the industry as well as its important contribution today. strategic industries such as automotive, aerospace and construction; Will he join me in thanking the Community union, notes with concern Tata’s proposed sale of its Long Products particularly its president, Dougie Fairbairn, who is Division and the impact this could have on UK steel industry from Corby and a very strong ambassador for Corby capacity; welcomes the efforts of UK steel producers to cut steelworks? We are not part of the long products division carbon emissions and expresses concern that losing trade to countries with less efficient processes could increase global that we are focusing on today, but we recognise that we carbon emissions; further notes with concern that some steel need to fight for the future of the steel industry, whichever imports do not meet British standards; calls on the Government part we are in. to recognise the importance of the steel industry and to work with it, the Scottish and Welsh Governments and trade unions to Mr Wright: I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning provide a co-ordinated plan for the industry’s future; urges the Community, which is a fantastic trade union that wants Government urgently to reconsider whether mitigating measures on energy prices, planned to start in April 2016, can be to secure the long-term viability of the steel industry brought forward to support the competitiveness of UK steel and is working hard to make sure that that happens. Its producers, to press the European Commission to launch an keenness to work with the work force, with management inquiry into the CARES certification of imported steel products and with Government to ensure that we have a future in to ensure safety and traceability and to take action through the UK steel industry is second to none, and I pay the EU and World Trade Organisation to challenge the tribute to it. uncompetitive subsidisation of steel products; and further calls on the Government to introduce an active industrial policy for the As my hon. Friend said, this is not a sunset industry— metals industry, including strengthening supply chains, strategic steel cannot be seen as that. This is an industry that has, approaches to public sector procurement, encouraging innovation, and should have, a future. Internationally, the acceleration skills development and resource efficiency and providing support of globalisation in the first half of this century provides for steel exporters. rising demand for steel products, especially for long Manufacturing matters if Britain wishes to have a products, which I will refer to later. The World Steel modern, dynamic and innovative economy. A vibrant Association has estimated that global steel use will rise manufacturing sector is vital to an economy that wishes from about 1.5 billion tonnes a year now to about to prioritise high value and secure jobs and improved 2.5 billion tonnes in 2050. Within that rising demand productivity, and to see rising living standards for all. In for steel, we see process innovation, technological turn, the steel industry is vital to the future competitiveness developments, increasing efficiency and sustainability, and flexibility of British manufacturing. and pressure to increase the added value of steel products This is not a debate that harks back to an industrial by making them stronger, lighter in weight, less resource- past, although I am proud to say from the Dispatch Box intensive and more flexible in their uses and reuses. that I come from a family of steelworkers. Both my Those developments can be powerful drivers of comparative grandfathers, Jimmy Wright and Alan Harland, were advantage for the UK steel industry. steelworkers for most of their working lives at the British Steel site in Hartlepool. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My hon. Friend However, this debate is not about the past. It is will know that added value is key to the products that focused on the future—on our long-term competitiveness are made at Shotton. Does he accept that energy prices as a leading economic nation and on what is needed to in this country are holding back some of the potential secure our place as one of the top-ranking economies in opportunities for expansion, because steelworks are the 21st century. Steel has to be a key part of that vision finding it very difficult to compete with other countries of a modern, innovative economy. As our motion makes in Europe and throughout the world? clear, the UK’s steel and metals sector provides highly skilled jobs in all parts of the United Kingdom, from Mr Wright: My hon. Friend has raised time and Hartlepool and Teesside in God’s own country of the again the need for a level playing field for energy costs, north-east to, among others, Sheffield and Scunthorpe; as have other hon. Friends, and I will want to focus on Corby; Deeside in north Wales; Cardiff, Port Talbot that. and Newport in south Wales; and Clydebridge and Our motion hopes to secure the support of the whole Motherwell in Scotland. House by, crucially, recognising the importance of the The economic contribution that those facilities make steel industry. We must work in a long-term way to through the wealth that is created by the plants and the address the issues and challenges, whether in energy workers who make the steel, and the way in which that costs or other matters such as skills, research and wealth is then circulated around firms and businesses in development and innovation, to ensure that steel has a those areas, whether through the supply chain or the prosperous future, providing important highly skilled, spending power of the steelworkers, is the foundation of well-paid jobs as part of a modern, open and innovative many local economies. Indeed, we should stress that the economy. To achieve that, we require a joint vision from steel industry is literally the foundation of many valuable industry and Government as to the importance of the sectors of the economy, forming part of a number of industry, with an active policy that addresses the challenges important value chains in manufacturing—the construction, and works with industry and all of Government in a automotive, aerospace and energy sectors, in which co-ordinated way. 941 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 942

All too often, however, Ministers give the impression Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): At the risk of that the steel industry is not a priority. Their deeply repetition, I, too, come from a steel family. My father unhelpful approach to the sector ensures that steel worked for more than 20 years at Llanwern, and I even firms have to fight a battle on two opposing fronts, managed six months there as a young man. Is my hon. which undermines the future prosperity of UK steel. Friend surprised that no one is present in the Chamber On the one hand, the Government offer the industry a from Plaid Cymru, the Scottish National party or even laissez-faire approach—they say that its corporate the UK Independence party to debate an industry that ownership, capability and capacity, and product pricing is very important for our country? is entirely up to the market—but on the other hand, they are intervening in the steel and metals sector in Mr Wright: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, a purely negative way. By imposing additional burdens because I had not realised that no such representatives on the steel industry, they are tying steel producers’ were in the House for this debate. Given the importance hands behind their backs, removing the gumshield of the steel industry to the United Kingdom and the from their mouths and then pushing them back into role that they could play in public procurement through the ring of the global marketplace. Such an approach to various Governments and Assemblies, it is absolutely the future viability of the UK steel industry cannot vital for them to be present. work. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I share with Co-op): My hon. Friend makes an important point the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) the about procurement, particularly in Scotland. As he Scunthorpe steelworks, which are very important to our will be aware, when the devolved Scottish Government constituencies, as well as to that of my hon. Friend the tendered for a new Forth crossing, they chose to place Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers). One mistake the steel order with a Chinese company, rather than to made by this Government—my hon. Friend and I voted support Scottish jobs in my constituency and that of against them on this—was on the carbon floor price. my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw One way to make things better would be to increase (Mr Roy). Does that not demonstrate that warm words accessibility to UK Government work and contracts. but no follow-through means that British steelworkers There is general agreement on that, but we have not lose out? seen a great deal of progress. Mr Wright: My hon. Friend, who has been a real champion on this issue, has pre-empted one of my later Mr Wright: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman remarks. His clarification about the contract is absolutely has mentioned those two points. I will come on to the right. This £790 million contract for 37,000 tonnes of importance of the Scunthorpe works in a moment. As steel for the Forth bridge project would have been really part of a real, active and proper industrial policy, it is helpful in making sure that we had a vibrant long-term incredibly important to ensure that we have smart steel industry in Scotland, but all the steel came from procurement to maintain and enhance supply chains China and Europe, and certainly none of it came from and industrial capability in this country. As he says, we Scotland. How can that be allowed if we have a real often hear warm words, but we do not see decisive industrial policy? I do not believe in protectionism or action from this Government or the devolved bailing out obsolete industries, but Governments of any Administrations from across the United Kingdom. complexion working with industry and the supply chain The hon. Gentleman mentioned Scunthorpe, and I to ensure their viability is the key to a modern, innovative want to turn to the very important matter of the potential economy. Other countries are doing that and so should we. sale of Tata Steel’s long products division to the Klesch Group. That is worrying many hon. Members and Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): My hon. Friend is steelworkers, and I raised that in an urgent question in making a powerful argument. Did he notice how the October. My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe Italian Government stepped forward before Christmas (Nic Dakin), who has the largest affected plant in his to ensure that their steel industry could carry on into constituency—unless it is in that of the hon. Member the future and be in a strong position to compete in for Brigg and Goole, in which case I apologise—as well Europe and the world? as my hon. Friends the Members for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (TomBlenkinsop), for Rutherglen Mr Wright: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and for Motherwell Governments, in conjunction with industry, can look at and Wishaw (Mr Roy), have been particularly strong on the global steel market, consider where they want to fit this matter. into the value chain and how they can exploit it, and It is absolutely imperative for Britain to retain a long work together in a co-ordinated way on research, products capability. The construction industry, both development, innovation and skills to ensure that they domestically and internationally, provides a real opportunity. fulfil the potential. Improving the rail network is a good example. Network What has happened with long products provides a Rail will spend billions of pounds on rail infrastructure good example. It is important that this country continues in the next couple of decades, with projects such as to have a long products capability for domestic and Crossrail, High Speed 2 and possibly Crossrail 2. I shall international reasons. It is important that we remain a expand on that later, but to respond to the hon. Member key player in that area. That is not about helping for Brigg and Goole, I would say that a proper, co-ordinated obsolete, old-fashioned industries; it is about thinking industrial strategy, with smart procurement as one of its about the future and about how we can exploit the guiding principles, could unlock real value for UK steel opportunities. Just because a single company, albeit one firms and their workers. as strong and as important to this country as Tata, 943 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 944

[Mr Iain Wright] The Secretary of State will be aware of the UK’s national trade union steel co-ordinating committee, which makes a strategic decision to divest itself of its long is made up of representatives of Community, the GMB, products division, which comprises about 50% to 60% which is my union, and Unite. It has hired the consultancy of its steel operations, this country should not lose that Syndex to look at alternatives to Tata’s selling its long capability. Should not such matters be considered in an products business. What support is being given to that effective industrial strategy? As I said, it is not about work, and what pressure will the Government put on all bailing out obsolete industries, but about identifying the parties concerned to ensure that any recommendations the parts of the value chain where we can make inroads in the Syndex report are considered and acted on? and receive dividends in the future. AndyMcDonald(Middlesbrough)(Lab):Myconstituency Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Does exists because of iron and steel, and many of my constituents my hon. Friend agree that it was not helpful of the continue to work in the Teesside plant. Does my hon. Government to refuse to find the loan for Sheffield Friend agree that the Community union has at its disposal Forgemasters that would have put it in a position to incredible expertise and knowledge about processes and compete worldwide in nuclear engineering? markets in the industry? We would be foolish to ignore that resource. It should be exploited to the full as we try Mr Wright: I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the to preserve the long products division of Tata Steel. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) in her place, because she was particularly strong early Mr Wright: My hon. Friend is right. I would like to on in this Parliament on the issue of Sheffield Forgemasters. class him as a good friend, and I take great pleasure in My right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and pointing out that West Hartlepool was a thriving industrial St Pancras (Frank Dobson) is absolutely right. One key port at a time when his area was just sand dunes. I thing that an industrial strategy can do is identify the appreciate, however, that his area was later nicknamed opportunities in the supply chain and work with firms “Ironopolis” and was an important part of the iron and to exploit that potential. When the Government came steel industry in the 19th century. He makes an important in, they did nothing to help and they might have undermined point—why would we remove assets, both physical and a great capability in that important part of the steel intangible? Why do we not exploit the real talents that industry and its auxiliary supply chain. lie within the trade union movement and the work force to ensure that we have a real future for the steel industry? Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): With regard to the ownership of the long products Will my hon. Friend give way? division, the Government say, “Let the market decide”. However, they are intervening in other areas, producing Mr Wright: I will give way to my hon. Friend, and I an uneven playing field for British-based producers, to pay tribute to the work that she did earlier in this the detriment of the UK steel industry’s competitiveness. Parliament with regard to Sheffield Forgemasters. Nowhere is that more acute than in the field of energy costs, as has been pointed out time and again, including Angela Smith: I thank my hon. Friend. Our capability by my hon. Friends the Members for Alyn and Deeside to deliver supply chain opportunities in the nuclear (Mark Tami), for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, industry has been compromised by the Government’s for Scunthorpe, for Newport East (Jessica Morden) and decision. It was cast at the time as a cancellation of for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). Labour’s sweeties to industries in Sheffield in an attempt The future of the steel industry should prioritise low to win Sheffield Central in the general election. Will he carbon and sustainability, and the task of an industrial take the opportunity to deny, even now, that that was policy is to assist the sector in the transition. It should the case and to say that it had been a serious strategic not happen in a way that forces UK steel producers out investment in a key industry for the UK? of business or away from these shores. We should not get into a ludicrous situation where there are higher Mr Wright: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It was global carbon emissions because we are importing more a serious, strategic, targeted investment that was based and more of our steel requirements from countries with on a credible assessment of what would be required in reduced regulation. our future industrial capabilities. As someone who has Steel costs more to manufacture in the UK than in a nuclear power station in his constituency and who European neighbours, often by as much as 25% to 50%, wants to see the supply chain in steel and other parts of because the French and German Governments have industry thrive as a result of a new generation of prioritised the steel industry as being vital for nuclear power, I think it is important that we look at manufacturing, have not imposed cost burdens on it this issue in a co-ordinated manner. and have worked to mitigate any pressures quickly. In I want briefly to conclude my remarks about the long contrast, the UK Government’s response has been half- products division. I do not want to see assets stripped hearted and slow, reflecting the lack of priority that away from the UK by a buyer, so I have some questions they give to the steel industry. that I hope the Secretary of State will answer when he responds. What guarantees will the Government extract Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ from any potential buyer of the long products division Co-op): Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be an on the safeguarding of jobs, additional investment and absolute absurdity were steel production to end up the maintenance of existing sites, such as Scunthorpe, being offshored to places such as China, where processes as places where steel is made? Is any such deal contingent are far less carbon-efficient and carbon emissions will on grants and funding being provided by the Government, be higher, and where there are serious concerns about and what would those be? quality standards and environmental degradation? 945 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 946

Mr Wright: I will turn in a moment to the traceability Imports from China now account for more than a and sustainability of imports, but I hope that my hon. third of the UK domestic steel market, and they are Friend will be able to catch your eye later in the debate, growing substantially year on year. I pay tribute to my Mr Deputy Speaker, so that he can expand upon those hon. Friend, who has been particularly robust on that points. matter. We are calling for the Government to take The Port Talbot site lost 400 jobs in July, and on decisive action within the European Commission and announcing the redundancies, Tata Steel’s chief executive the World Trade Organisation to clamp down hard on Karl Koehler said that unfair trade from other nations, but there is precious little evidence that the Government are standing up for “steel demand and prices are likely to be under pressure for some steel and pursuing such an approach. What are they years. Our business rates in the UK are much higher than other doing to ensure that fair change? The large increase in EU countries’ and our UK energy costs will remain uncompetitive until new mitigation measures come into effect.” Chinese imports in recent years also includes steel reinforcement for concrete, or rebar. China has significant State aid approval has not been pursued with any sense excess capacity in that product, and as such is importing of urgency or vigour, and Ministers have allowed the it to Europe. That particularly affects Celsa Steel, which process to drag on. Romania was able to commence and is based in Cardiff, and my hon. Friend has been an conclude state aid negotiations within six months, so extremely strong and assiduous champion for steel jobs why does it take years for the UK? Help to mitigate the and that firm in his constituency. renewables obligation will not come into force until April 2016, despite the fact that steel firms need help The Secretary of State may recall that I asked him a now. I appreciate that the process can take time, but will question on this issue during questions to the Department the Secretary of State commit to pursuing it with a for Business, Innovation and Skills last year. As my renewed sense of haste? Crucially, if approval comes hon. Friend has said, there is concern about traceability forward prior to April 2016, will the Government implement within the supply chain and the failure to comply with the measures as soon as possible? British standards—I am sure my hon. Friend will catch your eye during the debate, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I The Secretary of State will acknowledge that when it want to flag up the issue because it raises serious comes to capital expenditure decisions, especially for an questions about the structural integrity of buildings industry as capital-intensive as steel, global investors and infrastructure. In answer to my question last will base their decisions on a dashboard of different November, the Secretary of State said that he was in the factors, including tax, access to a skilled work force, the middle of an inquiry into whether the testing process regulatory environment, access to markets and innovation. operates effectively. Will he update the House on that In that context, inward investors see business rates as a inquiry, as well as on its findings, recommendations and fixed cost. They do not flex with changing market actions? conditions and industrial output. Business rates are five to 10 times higher in the UK than in European neighbours, I mentioned the potential of domestic markets in putting British-based steel at yet another cost disadvantage energy, construction and infrastructure that UK steel compared with our competitors. producers could tap into, but far too often—I think the House is united on this—British-based steel manufacturers I appreciate that the system cannot be changed overnight, miss out. I have already mentioned the £790 million and the Chancellor’s announcement of a business rates contract for the Forth road bridge. In the North sea we review is welcome and we support it. As part of that have the largest offshore wind market in the world, and review, will the Secretary of State confirm that the a supply chain that runs along the east coast—including Government are looking to simplify the system and Tata’s pipe mill in my constituency—that is ready and ensure that it boosts manufacturing activity? Specifically, eager to make the steel. Tata’s offshore processing centre does the review cover the valuation of plant and machinery in Hartlepool is geared up to provide steel tubulars and in the business rates system? line pipe for wind turbines and their foundations. Every time I sit at Hartlepool United’s football ground, Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) I can look out—it is often not worth actually watching (PC): The hon. Gentleman is right to mention business the football—and see the fantastic Teesside wind farm rates, which will soon be devolved to the Labour project. However, less than 10% of the steel in that Government in Cardiff. What discussions has he had project was produced by UK-based manufacturers, even with colleagues about creating a business rates regime in though there is a steel industry and supply chain literally Wales that would help the steel industry in my country? on its doorstep. That is madness, and the Government need to work harder to address that. Mr Wright: That is an important point, and ensuring I am not advocating protectionism, but I urge the co-ordination across the United Kingdom in things Government to emphasise the importance of smart such as tax systems and procurement measures is vital. public procurement that aids the industrial and employment As part of a proper industrial policy, we must champion capability of supply chains in this country. Why do they free trade and try to stamp out unfair trade. As part of not encourage local economic benefit clauses in public that co-ordinated response, the Government should be procurement contracts, as other countries in Europe working with other partners. We are concerned—my do? Some of the work being undertaken in sectors such hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth as automotives and aerospace is welcome, but the (Stephen Doughty) has already touched on this—that Government are failing to join up the dots with China and Turkey are subsidising their steel exports, supply chain capability. Why do they not work harder making it impossible for UK and European steel products to provide linkages between original equipment to compete on a level playing field, and domestic steel manufacturers and firms within the supply chain, to production suffers. ensure that the needs and requirements of primes are 947 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 948

[Mr Iain Wright] 5.12 pm The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and understood, and that steel producers within the Skills (Vince Cable): I very much welcome the debate. It supply chain can adapt and work collaboratively? For is an opportunity to show shared recognition across the example, when the Automotive Council identifies that House of the importance of the steel industry. In terms £2 billion to £3 billion of additional value can be of basic crude steel production, we still have approximately created in the UK car industry by reshoring some of 20,000 workers in the industry. In the steel industry that work, what is the Department doing, with industry, more widely, we have about 300,000 workers. It is a very to ensure foundation industries such as steel, as well as big and important industry, and I recognise that importance. chemicals and glass, can be positioned to take advantage I also recognise the anxieties that exist in the industry at of that great opportunity? By prioritising steel as a the moment, notably over the future of the long products foundation industry, and as an essential part of industrial division, but also over the future of Celsa in Cardiff. We strategy and a vital component in the ongoing are engaging with Celsa on a regular basis, but I know competitiveness and success of other, perhaps more the uncertainties and problems the situation presents visible, manufacturing success stories such as Airbus, for the work force. Nissan and Jaguar Land Rover, UK manufacturing could be better placed to succeed in the future. The motion poses a great challenge: why are the Government not more active? I will simply speak for Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab) rose— myself. [Interruption.] I will speak for my own personal involvement as Secretary of State before the current Mr Wright: I give way to my hon. Friend, who is a anxieties arose. In the course of my period in office I passionate ambassador for Airbus. have been to Scunthorpe, as hon. Members would expect. I have visited Port Talbot twice. I have been to Beam Mill in Redcar on two occasions. I went to the opening Mark Tami: How many times has my hon. Friend of the SSI plant in Redcar, which the hon. Member for been around factories to see very important machinery Hartlepool (Mr Wright) may recall closed under his only to be told that it has had to be imported because Government, but which, with the help of my hon. it is not produced here any more, and that we used to Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) and others, produce it years ago but we no longer have the has restarted. I have been to Celsa to discuss its very capability? That is very sad and shows where we are particular problems, and to a wide variety of steel-using going wrong. plants involved in casting, forging, pressing and steel wire rolling, and other such installations. I have tried to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The engage with this industry, and understand and support shadow Minister has been speaking for 26 minutes and it. Despite the slightly carping tone of the speech by the there are 13 speakers after the Secretary of State. I do hon. Gentleman, I hope he recognises that there has not want to interrupt the shadow Minister—he is making been a great deal of engagement with the industry and a great speech—but I just ask him to bear in mind some positive outcomes. interventions. Quite apart from my own personal involvement, the Department has had three Ministers of State with Mr Wright: Thank you for your guidance, Mr Deputy responsibility for this industry, all of whom have taken Speaker. a very close interest in it. The current Minister, the My hon. Friend is absolutely right about making sure Minister for Business and Enterprise, would have been that we assess, in a strategic and co-ordinated way, a here, but he is at a funeral, and I personally must vision for the steel industry: how we want it to be linked apologise because unfortunately I cannot be here for in to a manufacturing sector that is vibrant and competitive, the winding-up speeches. However, the Minister for and how we can work collaboratively to ensure that that Culture and the Digital Economy will report back on happens. any important issues that arise. With that in mind, work is ongoing within the industry I will not recommend to colleagues that we vote to produce a UK metals strategy. That is welcome. I am against the motion because most of the points are pleased that it is industry-led rather than top-down perfectly reasonable—they are just telling us to do Government imposed, but its status is unclear and there things we are already doing, and I do not object to that. is no evidence from Ministers that it will be accepted by It is the job of the Opposition to chase us, but on Government. Will the Secretary of State state how he almost every item that the hon. Gentleman listed, we and his officials are engaging with the process? Will the are taking the action he described. strategy be given similar status to the 11 industrial Given the negative tone of the hon. Gentleman’s sector strategies? How will the strategy develop and speech, it is worth reviewing some facts about the ensure it does not just consist of a nice launch and a evolution of the steel industry. Historically, of course, it glossy brochure, but then stays on the shelf and is not a was once much bigger than it is today—it has gone real, meaningful and co-ordinated engagement to address through a prolonged and painful process of consolidation the challenges and ensure the ongoing success of the and contraction. However, when we entered government, steel industry? crude steel production was about 9.7 million tonnes a Steel matters. It is vital to a modern and innovative year, whereas it is now more than 12 million tonnes and economy. We need a Government who recognise that, growing at about 5% to 6% a year. When I looked at the and act to addresses the challenges and the opportunities long-term time series, I was surprised to learn that the of the industry. We need Ministers to champion it. We current level of production is higher than it was back in need a Government that will stand up for steel in this 2002 and in 1980, though the last was an exceptional country. I commend the motion to the House. year. He sought to criticise the Government, but it is 949 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 950 worth recalling that in the Thatcher years, which are not Stephen Doughty: I am slightly disappointed by the considered to have been particularly friendly to the steel Secretary of State’s painting of this rosy picture that the industry, steel production declined from 21 million to Government are doing everything listed in the motion. 18 million tonnes a year. In the rather shorter period— Certainly from conversations I have had with his 13 years—of the Labour Government, steel production Department, Ministers and others, including with the actually halved. The rate of contraction was substantially steel industry in my constituency, I am aware of a greater than in that difficult period of the 1980s. So we cautious, sit-back approach. Letters I have received could do without Labour’s sense of piousness and identify that, particularly in respect of action taken at self-righteousness. the European level. When was the last time the Secretary of State raised with the European Commission the issue Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East of countries such as China and Turkey dumping into Cleveland) (Lab): It would be remiss if we did not UK markets? mention Geoff Waterfield, the multi-union chair at Redcar steel works, who was the real hero behind the Vince Cable: When I was in Brussels a few months saving of that site during a campaign that lasted from 2008 ago—I do not recall the exact date—I was actively to 2011. We also need to mention that on the Secretary pursuing the issue of speeding up state aid clearance of State’s watch, Thames Steel has closed, and Alcan and I have certainly actively raised trade policy issues. aluminium smelter—not a steel manufacturer—in We support the principle of the European Commission Northumberland has also closed, with the loss of 500 jobs. acting—if evidence can be acquired. As the hon. Gentleman He needs to have a broader review of his record in this will know, getting anti-dumping action and countervailing period. duty action by the Commission is not easy. Proof has to be established, but we are pressing where unfair practices Vince Cable: I pay tribute to all the members of the can be established. community who fought for the steel works and secured the reopening by my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Redcar and others. (SNP): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for charting Of course, this is an industry with a great many and laying out the facts of the decline in steel production problems, which I will review in a moment, and the in the UK. I have heard from a reputable source that metal sector generally has been under great pressure. I Ravenscraig in Scotland could have been saved by being was just trying to make the simple point that the rather bought by a rival, but to prevent competition from self-righteous tone from the Opposition is perhaps not other areas of the UK at the time, British Steel chose to reflected in the historical record, so I would urge a end production at Ravenscraig. Will he look into the slightly more balanced approach. veracity of that statement and perhaps report back at some other time that Ravenscraig was deliberately sabotaged Angela Smith: On the subject of the Secretary of and ended for purposes related to other places? State’s record, what representations did he make to the Chancellor when the latter proposed to introduce the Vince Cable: I recall that when I lived in Scotland, carbon floor price? Ravenscraig was still producing as an integrated producer. I do not know the history of why it was closed, and I Vince Cable: My Department has been engaged in doubt the conspiracy theory. I suspect that the industry active discussions with the Treasury about the implications was under a great deal of pressure. The simple point to of the carbon price floor and other environmental make is that the industry has been contracting over measures. I was going to make the point that the principle three to four decades, both under British Steel—some of trying to change incentives through the tax system to Labour Members might remember the name of discourage carbon-intensive production was inspired by Mr MacGregor—and subsequently under privatisation, the Leader of the Opposition when he held this role in so it was not ideological. government, and we have maintained that green principle Before I finish the point about the historic trends, let in taxation. Of course, that has costs for energy users, me say that the decline in employment has been far and we have sought to deal with that through a more dramatic and far more brutal than the decline in compensation mechanism, which so far has made output. It is worth recalling that, back in 1980, 155,000 commitments of £3 billion. I shall explain in a moment people were working in the industry, and there are now the progress we have made on implementing that. 20,000. We are down to little above a 10th of the total labour force. There were two major spasms when this John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): The occurred. One was between 1979 and 1981, when the Business Secretary is urging a balanced approach. Is he industry halved in manpower—a very difficult phase. aware that the shadow Business Secretary has said that Then, during the period of the last Government, the trade unions at their best are wealth creators for this level of employment halved again after 1997. The question country? We never hear that from the Prime Minister or we now face is whether we can avoid another spasm of the Chancellor. Can we hear that, along with a tribute contraction as a result of the difficulties faced by several to trade unions, from the Business Secretary? leading producers, particularly Tata.

Vince Cable: I have no inhibitions about doing that. I Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): On the topic of am always happy to engage with the trade union movement, jobs, looking to the future, what binding guarantees are either at the TUC level or a community union level. On the Secretary of State and the Government obtaining this whole issue, they have been very constructive, so I from Klesch about maintaining jobs and ensuring greater have no problem agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman. steel capacity in the UK for the future? 951 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 952

Vince Cable: We are not in negotiation with Mr Klesch. this debate. Fourteen minutes into it, the Secretary of He has expressed an interest to Tata about acquiring the State is still being entirely negative about our brilliant long products division. I and my officials have had a steel industry, about all its opportunities for the future, conversation with him in very broad terms. If he wants and about the solutions that we need from the Government to make proposals, we will obviously look at them, then to the problems that he is describing. talk to him and to Tata. At that point, the issue of conditionality might well arise, but I think the hon. Vince Cable: In the remaining part of my speech, I Gentleman is premature on this issue. shall explain exactly how we will deal with the problems faced by the steel companies, but it is right to be realistic Tom Blenkinsop: Bringing the Secretary of State back about those problems. The companies are losing money, to his comments on spasms of contractions of labour in and we shall need to understand why they are losing the steel industry, he will know that between 1987 and money before we embark on policy action. 1992, in my locality and particularly the Teesside Cast Products site, the work force went from 25,000 to 5,000. Fourthly, there is the fundamental problem of My predecessor but one, the now Lord Langbaurgh, competition and high-productivity competitors. It is all actually celebrated that in his maiden speech in this very well to complain about unfair competition, and House when he was elected in 1992. there may be some, but the most productive steel plants in the world are in Japan, Korea and, potentially, China. Vince Cable: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the For decades there has been massive under-investment in embellishment of the detail. the British steel industry. Tata has invested in blast I hope it is accepted that the situation with the furnaces in south Wales, but there has nevertheless been numbers and the trends arose under both previous sets chronic under-investment, which is why there is a of Governments and under both nationalisation and productivity issue in relation to overseas competition. privatisation. Let me try to get to the bottom of the underlying problems with the industry, which are serious. Mark Tami: Does the Secretary of State not accept The first problem is structural, and has absolutely nothing that, as I said at the beginning of the debate, it is to do with decisions by industry or Government; it has possible to become far more efficient, but, no matter to do with the nature of demand. how much efficiency is improved, there will still be a Technology is changing. If the Eiffel tower were massive gap between energy costs. rebuilt now, a third of the amount of steel that was used for its original construction would be required. Construction Vince Cable: I had already begun to deal with the cost techniques and materials have changed. Even in industries issue. Let me explain how we are trying to offset it. in which steel has a major market and is a major Among our competitors, the French have a nuclear success, such as the automobile and aerospace industries, power industry, and the marginal cost of nuclear power it is already being driven out at the margin by composites. is extremely low. The Germans use a lot of thermal Let me give a little example. In my constituency, I am power, but, under European rules, they have been able trying to bring about the restoration of a pedestrian to grandfather the support that they have given to their bridge over an expressway. It is a steel bridge, but if industry. We have not overlooked the problem; there are Transport for London proceeds with the project, it will very specific reasons for it. be replaced by a plastic bridge at a small fraction of the I have dealt with the problems. Let me now deal with cost, and composite materials will be used. Technology, the major areas of opportunity, as I have rightly been about which we can do little except to encourage it in an asked to do. What is beginning to emerge is that successful innovative context, is a key driver in the steel industry, British producers—notably Tata—are finding markets in respect of both production and employment. in two particular areas. One is high-quality production— The second problem originated with the banking and alloy steels, light vehicles, aerospace—using sophisticated financial crisis, which resulted in a massive cut in steels. That is where the market is beginning to consolidate infrastructure spending. That cut was initiated in 2009, and where companies are making significant margins to although, admittedly, the present Government have stay in business. The second area—again, I am very continued restrictions on capital expenditure. The surprised the Opposition spokesman did not mention contraction of capital spending and the ending of private it—is exports. Within the last three to four years, exports finance initiative projects also contributed to the drying have been growing rapidly. Tata Steel has won contracts up of a great deal of infrastructure demand. in Singapore. We are working with it to win business in Thirdly and crucially, the steel industry exports more Qatar and Iraq on pipelines and other things. The than it imports. That is a rather obvious point, but the future increasingly lies in export. The SSI plant, which hon. Member for Hartlepool did not refer to it. He is the big success for Redcar, has been based entirely on talked entirely about import competition. What he did export production. Rather than focusing just on the not mention was that for Tata and the other steelmakers, problems created by import competition, let us think export markets are critical. A key export market is the about this as a global industry in which good British European Union, and in the European Union there is a producers have significant markets. serious problem of excess capacity. Many steel plants in Those are the two areas of specialisation where British France, for example, have been mothballed. Anyone steel producers are doing well, so let me now turn to the who tries to compete in the European market will be areas of policy where the hon. Member for Hartlepool operating on very fine margins, and that is a serious (Mr Wright) is asking us to do more: energy costs; the problem for all the producers in Europe. industrial strategy; and imports and certification. Andy Sawford: Roy Rickhuss, the general secretary of On energy costs, I completely agree with Members on the Community union, along with steelworkers in my both sides of the House who argue that it is completely constituency and throughout the country, will be watching counter-productive to drive away energy-intensive British 953 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 954 producers who simply pollute somewhere else. Carbon innovation. The fact that the advanced manufacturing leakage is not sensible policy, so we should stop it. catapult is in Sheffield is highly relevant to some of the We fully recognise that where British producers enjoy specialist producers that make major use of it. In addition, a cost disadvantage because of high energy costs they we have provided more than £8 million for a steel should be compensated, and we have agreed to compensate industry R and D centre at the university of Warwick, to the scale of £3 billion, which in an environment of which will do a lot of the innovative work in this field, fiscal pressure is by no means insignificant. In respect of so we recognise the importance of R and D. one area of extra cost—the EU emissions trading scheme— The hon. Gentleman mentioned training. Quite apart compensation has already been paid; the cheques have from the across-the-board work we do on apprenticeships, gone out. In respect of the carbon price floor and the we have a programme to fund 100 postgraduate researchers renewables obligations, we are in the process of trying and 250 apprenticeships for Tata, specifically dedicated to secure EU agreement on state aid. We have been to the future manpower requirements of the steel industry. waiting 18 months. If Opposition Front Bencher were The hon. Gentleman rightly mentioned procurement familiar with what is happening in the European issues. One of the first problems we had to confront was Commission, they would know that there is a major procurement in the rail industry, where contracts were bottleneck in getting state aid clearance not just for the defined in such a way that they did not in any way help UK, but across the EU. It is important to reflect a little British suppliers. We have rectified that problem. We on that, because Opposition Members proclaim they have to operate within the laws of the European Union believe in the EU—a belief which I happen to share—but on procurement, but under the industrial strategy we the EU has as part of its operation something we now actively seek strategically to develop British suppliers. support: strict state aid disciplines. When we are dealing This is now happening in respect of, for example, energy with very complex problems, such as the approval for supply chains and railways—all the recent big railway Hinkley or the approval we have recently obtained for contracts are going to companies based in the UK. The the British business bank, those strict state aid disciplines point is fully understood that we have to develop British take a great deal of time. We would be happy to bring supply chains, albeit within the rules of international forward compensation, subject to financial priorities, if law that we subscribe to. state aid clearance could be obtained, but we are still waiting for it. Mr Umunna: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way again. Does he not accept that simply Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): Is the Secretary waving the flag of EU state aid approval problems in of State saying that the only reason why the Government—I respect of the use of procurement is a red herring? So take it he is speaking for the Government—will not long as the benefit for growth and jobs in this country is bring forward the compensation package due to kick in not the sole criterion used for making procurement in April 2016 is state aid approval? decisions, it can be taken into account when making such decisions. It seems to me that that is not really Vince Cable: Yes, that is the reason. There is financial happening in government. provision in a later financial year. We would clearly have to argue with the Treasury for bringing that forward, Vince Cable: It is happening, it is taken into account, and there would be an argument, which the hon. Gentleman and end-user industrial strategies such as those for the would have were he in government, for funding that as railways sector and the energy supply chain industries— against other priorities. That argument has to be had, nuclear, oil and gas, offshore wind—are operating entirely but the current constraint is state aid approval, and it is on that basis. Contracts that would otherwise have gone a very real one. overseas are now going to UK producers. Why else are wind turbines being fabricated on Humberside, which Mr Umunna: If the Treasury, the European Commission we hope will provide a linkage back into the steel and state aid approval are the issues, why has the industry in Scunthorpe in due course? Secretary of State not started having a discussion with The hon. Member for Hartlepool asked about supply the Treasury on that point, or has he done so already? chain development. I do not know whether he is aware of the advanced manufacturing supply chain initiative, Vince Cable: Yes, we have that discussion on a frequent which is providing support for specific supply chains. A basis both at European level and internally within the substantial award was given to the Proving Factory, Government. We are well aware of the sense of urgency based in Sheffield, which was designed specifically to in the industry and the pressure it faces from high develop the supply chain within the steel industry. The energy costs, and we are anxious that it should be things that the hon. Gentleman is calling for are happening, compensated as quickly as possible. and we fully understand the need for them. When I came into this job, we did not have an I turn to imports and the quality issues relating to industrial strategy. We now have one. We had, as the China. I think the hon. Gentleman may have misunderstood hon. Member for Hartlepool correctly said, a strategy the mechanisms involved. The testing of steel—this is a built around 11 sectors. We have added to that chemicals, particular issue, as he correctly pointed out, in respect electronics and metals. The metals strategy paper will of rebar and Celsa—is carried out by the UK Certification be available later this year and will be the basis on which Authority for Reinforcing Steel, which is an industry we can work in future with the industry. body not a Government body. It does the testing and The hon. Gentleman asked for several specific respects tracing. As he correctly pointed out, a year ago we in which an industrial strategy could help. Let me initiated an inquiry into whether the system had integrity itemise them. On R and D innovation, he is right: a and was effective. We asked the United Kingdom forward-looking industry needs Government to support Accreditation Service, which is part of the BIS family of 955 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 956

[Vince Cable] manufacturing sectors, including the aerospace, automotive, oil and gas and renewables industries. The Secretary of institutions, to investigate whether the certification process State and other Ministers brag about their economic was working and whether the correct testing procedures success but, in fact, we have seen a double deficit failure. were being followed. It said that, having checked, there We have seen failure on the fiscal deficit, with the was no particular fault within the Chinese products. We Government promising to balance the books by this have had further strong representations from Celsa, year but instead having to admit that they are borrowing among others, and further investigations are taking £200 billion more than they planned over this Parliament. place as a result. I believe that a team from CARES is We have also seen failure on the trade deficit. Back in doing detailed testing in China at the moment. We want 2010, the Chancellor promised an to make absolutely sure that the process is investigated. “economy where we save, invest and export”.—[Official Report, So far, no hard evidence has been found of a serious 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 167.] fault in the Chinese products. There may be such a He failed, and we now face a trade deficit of £110 billion fault, but we have to find the evidence and, so far, we a year and the biggest ever trade deficit in goods. have not done so. The hon. Member for Hartlepool raised the topical The steel industry and our UK companies together issue of the future of Tata and Celsa. The position of are positive contributors in that disastrous trade balance, Tata is straightforward: it has announced its intention involving £5 billion a year of exports. In 2013, the steel to sell the long products division. As I have explained in industry made a positive trade contribution of £2.4 billion. the House before, I had a substantial discussion on this Tata’s speciality steels manufacturing, which is largely matter with Mr Mistry when I was last in India. Mr Klesch based in South Yorkshire, now employs 2,250 people, has expressed an interest in buying it, and my colleagues 1,050 of whom are at the Rotherham site. and officials and I have had discussions with him, That steel-making in South Yorkshire is innovative, although we have so far discussed ideas only at a very internationally competitive and successful—27% of the general level. When he has proposals, he can bring them sales are to the UK market, with 18% going to the US to the Government and we can discuss them and negotiate. and fully half to other eurozone countries—but it is The whole process is at a much more general level at the under great pressure. It is hampered by high energy moment than the hon. Gentleman hinted at in his costs and held back by the Government not doing all speech. they can to back this great British industry. We have I very much welcome the fact that Tata has engaged been making steel in Rotherham since the early 1800s, with the Community union to produce an analysis of and Tata’s steel-making, re-melting and mill processing the future of the industry. Perhaps that will give us a now supplies some of the world’s highest-quality, highest- whole new set of options. It is a good initiative and we performance metals to some of the world’s biggest and are eager to work with it. I believe strongly in the steel best known companies. industry. I have been closely engaged with it since I We have come close to losing our Aldwarke plant became Secretary of State. I think it has an excellent before, and it was only because of the trade unions, future, but it will need continuing support from this and working alongside the management—led by Stuart the next Government. As far as I am concerned, I will Sansome of Community union, alongside Mark Broxholme remain close to it and closely involved with it. of what was then Corus Engineering Steels—that in 2009-09 we brought that company through that period. Several hon. Members rose— I pay tribute to them, and I was glad to hear the Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Business Secretary paying proper tribute to the trade It will be obvious to hon. Members that a large number unions’ role in the steel industry. of people wish to take part in the debate, but we have I am very short of time now. This is an internationally only 59 minutes left. I therefore have to impose a time competitive but internationally exposed industry, clearly limit of five minutes on Back-Bench speeches. suffering the effects of weak eurozone demand, exchange rate changes and, above all, as a high-intensive energy 5.41 pm user, very high comparative energy costs. John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I welcome this debate and I also welcome its timing, because 2015 Mr MacNeil: Are there any estimates of the effects of will be a critical year for the British steel industry. At austerity on the steel industry, because of a lack of the heart of the motion is a call for the Government to demand coming from the Government, in particular? recognise the importance of the industry in the UK and to work with it and the trade unions to come up with a John Healey: Weak demand is always a problem for co-ordinated plan for its future. I hope that this debate an industry such as the steel industry. Although in the will help to achieve that aim. The general secretary of past year UK demand for steel has increased by 15%, most the Community union, Roy Rickhuss, captured the of that has been supplied by imported steel, not imperative that faces us very well when he said: UK-produced steel—that is what we have to change. It “UK steel companies and their workers need a government is the high energy prices that pose the risk of pricing that is prepared to intervene to support us on areas like energy, British steel-making out of business. The full cost of tax and procurement, just as they do in France and Germany”. energy for large energy-intensive users, such as steel That is what we are looking for from Ministers today. makers, is ¤77 per megawatt-hour in the UK, which After nearly five years of failing economic policies, compares with ¤49 in France, ¤38 in the US and ¤33 in Britain badly needs a successful steel industry, not Germany. Of course when high-end products go through only in its own right but as a foundation industry for several processes—melting, casting, re-melting, rolling the success of this country’s many other advanced and finishing—that premium and extra cost is multiplied. 957 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 958

We need the Secretary of State to commit his I mentioned Lackenby beam mill. This is an incredibly Government to bringing in, once state aid clearance is uncertain time for the workers and their families, and I achieved, help with the cost of the renewables obligation— certainly feel for them. The Secretary of State has that is imperative. We need help and a promise to visited the plant where the workers proudly told him negotiate a good transatlantic trade deal which benefits that nine out of 10 of the world’s tallest buildings have the metals industry and many of its user industries and beams from that mill. On the day he visited, they were deals with some of the problems associated with restricted making beams for the new World Trade Centre. That procurement practices arising through the “Buy America” plant remains a very attractive proposition for whoever regime. Finally, we need to see a commitment to using owns it. any local economic benefit clauses that can be put in The Secretary of State mentioned exports. The complex place in public procurement. Just as there is common in my constituency is almost entirely export related. ground in the industry among companies and the trade Sahaviriya Steel Industries is selling not just to Thailand unions on the future of the industry and what is needed, but to the US, Turkey and even Germany, so producing we need in this House, from today’s debate, common high-quality goods is one way to survive. A lot has ground among the parties. happened. Manufacturing is reviving after being halved under the previous Government. We have sector 5.48 pm strategies. I hear what was said about foundation industries, Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): When I was elected in and I am delighted to have pushed for the chemistry 2010, I became the representative for the large steel growth partnership. The steel industry may be able to complex in the Redcar area—the Tata long products propose a partnership with the Government that makes business, based on the Lackenby beam mill and the then sense. mothballed Tata iron and steelmaking facilities at Redcar. I welcome the direct support for the Tata research I was delighted that in my early months here we managed centre at Grangetown, which deals with high-temperature to get a deal to have the plant taken over. Many people research in partnership with the Centre for Process were involved in that, particularly a very constructive Innovation, part of the high-value manufacturing catapult. group of trade unionists; Geoff Waterfield has been It is now turning that centre into a material institute, mentioned, and I have no problem mentioning him with support from the Institute of Materials, academia again. The iron and steelmaking facilities had suffered and others. neglect and under-investment for decades. The Tees Valley city deal majors on the Teesside The integrated plant suffered a big blow in 2001 with industrial complex. Its wish to develop carbon capture the closure of the coil plate mill and had been slowly and storage will be hugely beneficial for the steel industry. dying. I am delighted to see that it has restarted and I The Government set the climate for the industry. They am pleased that SSI—Sahaviriya Steel Industries—has need to have a strategic view about steel for security invested £1.5 billion in the site to help deal with some of reasons. There are no Members in this House who have that under-investment and to put pulverised coal injection lived through a world war. There are perhaps those who on to the plant. The company has plans to do a lot were born in one. The steel industry is a strategic more, particularly in respect of energy. Only this week necessity for a country such as the UK and that needs the chief executive gave a very positive report to the to be factored into any thinking. press; despite the financial problems, the corner is being What my constituency shows is that if a company has turned. It was particularly pleasing to see the recruitment the right products, a great work force, constructive of 21 apprentices and six graduate trainees recently. trade unions, a supportive community and long-term I will not repeat all the points in the motion. I am investors, it can still run a successful steel business in pleased with the common-sense measures and played a this country. role, I think, in ensuring that the Government will not oppose the motion. However, I want to talk about a 5.53 pm couple of things that are not in the motion. The allowances under the EU emissions trading system are inadequate Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): I will for the plant in Redcar. The way that the reference not be taking any interventions in order that as many period has been established means that the business has Members as possible can speak. to pay extra for emissions trading, and, in fact, the I welcome today’s debate and the members of allowances are declining. We need to deal with that Community, the Union for Life, who are in the Public anomaly. Gallery. I especially welcome the general-secretary, Roy The EU is imposing best available technology on Rickhuss, and make a special mention of Ross Clark, steel plants, which is, in a sense, a good initiative. who has travelled more than 400 miles from Dalzell Levelling up to the level of the best is especially good steel plant in Motherwell to hear this debate. around emissions in the area. My constituents in There are two elements to the steel industry: the Dormanstown will be delighted about that. However, sector itself and the people who work in it. But who is a the amount of investment required will take time. I steel worker? Who works in our plants up and down the draw a parallel with the clean-up of the River Tees, country? A steel worker is the office worker, cleaner, which was a dead river when I moved to Teesside in the canteen assistant, instrument mechanic, electrician, welder, 1970s. It now has salmon back, but that did not happen crane driver, fork-lift driver, locomotive driver, engineer overnight. There was a constrictive arrangement between and the list goes on and on, and that is before we start the companies involved and the Department for to talk about the actual process workers themselves—the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, or whatever it people who operate the iron ore, limestone and coal was called in those days, to pace that work. We need to yards, sinter plants, coke ovens and blast furnaces. have that same approach on best available technology. When that iron is made it is transferred to the steel 959 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 960

[Mr Frank Roy] launch of the Community union’s stand up for steel campaign, provides an extremely welcome focus on an plants, the degasser units, the basic oxygen steel plants industry that, as the Secretary of State said earlier, is and the continuous casting plants, until we get to the still experiencing extremely challenging times, which raw material called steel. Then the mills shape that raw put at risk not only the contribution that the steel material that is so badly needed in our country—the hot industry makes to the UK today, but the role that it can strip mill, the slab mill, the plate mill, the section mill, play in the future as we transition to a low carbon the wire rod mill, the welded pipe mill and the seamless economy. This is an industry that continues to improve pipe mill. Added to those are the small foundries and its processes to be more efficient in production and can fabricators and steel stockholders throughout the United provide the steel for vital renewable energy production, Kingdom. These are the most important components and is, in itself, infinitely recyclable. of what we call our steel industry. I know that the Government have argued that they But it is the men and women who collectively are our are addressing some of the issues around competitiveness, most vital component, the steel workers themselves. but I am clear from visiting those businesses in my The people who ensure that we have steel are the people constituency that they have done everything they can to who ensure that we have oil rigs are in the North sea; weather the storm, but the environment remains challenging. that we have pipes bringing gas and oil from the furthest We need the issues raised today to remain a focus for north; that we have a Channel tunnel reinforced with this Government, with no complacency and real action steel in the south; that we have the ships that sail from to support and promote UK steel. our ports, the planes that fly from our airports, the I have in my constituency Llanwern and Orb, which buses and cars that drive on our roads, the trains that go are owned by Tata, and BRC in Lliswerry, which is part along our rail tracks, the bridges, the buildings and the of the Celsa group. As my hon. Friend the Member for white goods. I could go on and on. That is the steel Motherwell and Wishaw (Mr Roy) said, we should pay industry of the 21st century. a big tribute to those work forces working alongside The one thing that our steel workers have in common their union, Community, who, as we have said in previous is the need to make sure that their steel industry and debates, have had to face hard decisions over recent their livelihoods are supported and protected by both years. They have had to adapt, accept changes and rise Government and industry alike. I take this opportunity to the challenge of the targets that companies have set to congratulate the Community union, which today is them. As Community union says, we have the best launching its new stand up for steel campaign with four steelworkers in the world. To support them and the steel specific pillars that need addressing. It calls on the companies, we need this Government now to implement Government to support our UK steel industry by bringing measures, as we have heard, to alleviate their energy forward the compensation package for energy intensive costs and business rates, which are undermining the industries to help the industry become competitive and competitiveness of the UK steel industry and denying using Government procurement to deliver for UK us a level playing field with our competitors. We also foundation industries. need a more robust approach to procurement for major I am reminded of an earlier reference to the contract investment projects and a more holistic look at supply for the new Forth road bridge. Just to make sure that chain strategies. hon. Members know what happened, the Scottish Llanwern in my constituency is a swing plant and a Government gave that contract to companies in significant energy user. Unfortunately, it does not have Poland, Spain and China. That steel came 7,500 nautical the same ability as, say, Port Talbot to recycle energy for miles from Shanghai to Edinburgh. There is a plate mill electricity generation. Energy costs for that plant are in Motherwell called Dalzell and Clydebridge just a particularly crucial. We know that the Chancellor couple of miles down the road. Its steel could have announced a compensation package for the renewables come 35 miles along the M8 motorway, but, no, the obligation in the 2014 Budget but, as was said earlier, nationalist Government decided to look after the interests that is not scheduled to come into force until April 2016. of Scotland by looking after the interests of Shanghai This puts huge pressure on UK-based steel producers in steelworkers. We have heard much about the intended the interim period. That will cost Llanwern more than purchase of Long Products, but I will leave that to £4 million per annum, going up to £5 million with the others to expand on. tax increases in April. This is a large sum, which our As a former steelworker of nearly 15 years, I know competitors in France and Germany, for example, do from personal experience the worries of potential not pay or pay at a far lower rate. redundancy from an industry that workers have spent On business rates, I understand that some plants in most of their life working in. Their skills are those of a my constituency pay five to six times the amount that steelworker, melting materials to a red hot liquid, shaping equivalent sites in continental Europe pay. There is a cold steel in a rolling mill that will last for more than a difference of millions of pounds. Every time they invest century. Now is the time for the Government to stand in new plant machinery, their bill goes up. That is bad up for our steelworkers, to stand up for steel. Our for competing and bad for attracting investment. The steelworkers deserve nothing less. Government have been lobbied to remove plant and machinery from the business rate valuation; it would be 5.58 pm useful to hear their response. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): I start by We welcome the review of business rates announced saying how important it is that the Labour party has by the Chancellor, but it is too slow. The industry is chosen to use one of its Opposition days to debate struggling now, and as an employee at Llanwern said to issues affecting the steel industry, which is very important me this week, “Llanwern needs help now, not over a for my constituency. That, combined today with the period of years. We are a good plant that, if given an 961 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 962 even playing field, could be one of the best producers My other point relates to the concerns about the sale of pickle and oil, and that would also support our of Tata Steel’s long products division. The Secretary of Zodiac, which is one of the best in the world, not just State, who is no longer in his place, met a number of Europe.” steel MPs a few months ago when that matter was first I agree with all the points made on infrastructure, raised. I hope that the Minister of State will be able to which would help sites such as Llanwern, Orb and respond on what action the Secretary of State has BRC, as would a robust approach to considering local taken, because at that point he talked a good game economic benefit, such as jobs and apprenticeships. I about taking this very seriously, but in his speech he agree, too, with the comments on Chinese and Turkish seemed to suggest that he had had only one conversation imports, which will no doubt be raised by my hon. about it. That is very disappointing given that Tata Steel Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth has said, in effect, that this is its first choice and what it (Stephen Doughty), and which affect BRC in Newport wants to happen. It creates real danger for jobs in my as well. constituency and in others owing to Klesch’s record in In my constituency there has been investment by Tata other places, which has caused significant and serious in Llanwern on the Zodiac line and others, and help concern. Community and other trade unions are working from the Welsh Government through the React and jointly with their appointed specialist consultants to Proact schemes, but we need to know what more the come up with alternative scenarios that do not involve Government can do, working with the Welsh Government, potentially losing those jobs because of plants going to to help. Klesch, with its very poor record. Will the Minister confirm that that is being taken seriously by his Department As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and that its officials are fully engaged with those alternative and Dearne (John Healey) said, this year is a big year options? All of us here who represent plants in these for UK steel. Steelworkers in my communities need to areas would be much more confident and comfortable know that the Government are prepared to intervene to about the future if it did not involve Klesch. support us on energy, tax and procurement, as Governments do in other countries. The Government need to be absolutely clear about the importance of this debate. We are here to stand up 6.3 pm for steel, but to do that effectively we need the Government to stand behind the industry and recognise its Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ strategic importance for all of us and for the economy Co-op): I shall be brief to enable other colleagues to get of the UK. in. Unlike others who have spoken and will be speaking 6.6 pm in this debate, I am not from a family of steelworkers Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The Olympic stadium, and I am not a former steelworker, but I am proud to the Shard, Jodrell Bank, Sydney harbour bridge, the represent the dedicated work force at Clydebridge in rails on which our trains run: those are just some of the Cambuslang, a plant that is twinned with the Dalzell world-class products produced by UK steelmakers in plant in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member Scunthorpe and elsewhere. This debate represents a for Motherwell and Wishaw (Mr Roy). The two plants fantastic opportunity for all of us in this Chamber to work together, and members of that dedicated work unite behind those working in UK steelmaking and force are here for the debate this evening. respond to the clarion call from the Community union In the past Clydebridge and its predecessor employed and others that we stand up for steel today. thousands of people and has a strong connection with The UK’s demand for steel is currently at 74% of the the town of Cambuslang. My concern is that without 2007 level, and that should cause the Government real action from the Government on points that have been concern. Worse still, much of the demand is met by an made and others that I shall make briefly, we could risk increase in foreign imports. Alarm bells should be ringing the opportunity of having not just a proud industrial in Government ears and action should be taken. Since heritage, but a bright manufacturing future for Clydebridge the global crash of 2008, the Scunthorpe works has and other steel plants. That is why all of us here are experienced many challenges. Work force and management seeking to ensure that the Government take these points have delivered everything that Tata has asked of them. seriously today and going forward. That is why the valuable Network Rail contract was It was rather churlish of the Secretary of State not to won—justification for the significant investment in advanced recognise that the contribution from my hon. Friend the rail manufacturing at Scunthorpe. To Tata’s credit, it Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) from the Front has continued to invest, with record numbers of apprentices Bench was a responsible, reasonable position, setting being taken on, year on year, and the multimillion out a range of issues that we want to see properly pound relining of the Queen Anne blast furnace. addressed. I shall focus on two. The first relates to However, Tata’s decision to divest itself of the long procurement, which is vital. When we look at the number products division and embark on a due diligence process of infrastructure opportunities available in a range of to sell to Klesch Group has meant that 2015 begins with sectors in the UK and Europe, we see the potential of uncertainty about the future ownership of a huge amount the UK steel industry to have a significant part, which of the UK’s steelmaking capacity. Some 6,500 people would sustain jobs and sustain an industry that is the are directly employed in long products in the UK, 4,000 foundation of much of our manufacturing base. It is a at Scunthorpe. In reality, far more than that—32,000 to foundation that exists not completely but largely outside 33,000 workers—are directly employed through contractors south-east England. That is good for the policies of the and the supply chain. These are good jobs providing Secretary of State, which seek to rebalance the economy good livings and making a crucial contribution to the not just sectorally, but geographically. That important UK’s economic well-being. UK Steel, in its “Charter for aspect of this debate should not be overlooked. Sustainable British Steel”, states: 963 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 964

[Nic Dakin] the Future and Project Ark, thousands of steelworkers have left the industry, but they did so with the goal of “Exports of British steel were worth £4.9 billion in 2013 and keeping our industry going in the hope of expanding contributed £2.4bn to the UK’s balance of trade. The sector’s again later, when the recession was overcome, and most overall contribution to the UK economy is worth around £9.5bn importantly, of retaining and perhaps recruiting to the a year.” industry. There needs to be a successful partnership between It must, however, be said that the news in late October Government and the industry to respond to the urgent, 2014 about the proposed sale of Tata’s long products critical challenges that we face. I take the Secretary of plants in the UK has cast a shadow over Teesside and State at his word—I do think he cares—but I was east Cleveland. I share the same thoughts as my friend disappointed that at times he appeared rather complacent. and the Labour candidate for Redcar, Anna Turley—she He needs to put his shoulder to the wheel to make sure has said that she is now most concerned for the workers that these difficult things are really delivered on. We at long products sites across the UK—as well as those need a co-ordinated, active industrial strategy for steel of, among many others, Robbie Middlemass at Skinningrove to secure its long-term future. It is a credit to the UK special profiles mill, Peter Hobson at the beam mill and, metals industry that it is working to produce the very of course, Paul Warren, who works at the South Bank first industrial strategy for metals in the UK. Will the coke ovens and is the multi-union chair at SSI. Some of Minister provide assurances that the Government will them are with us in the House today. work with the industry to take forward the metals strategy? Before the memorandum of understanding was signed on 15 October 2014, there was no consultation with the As many Members have said, we need a level playing trade unions, despite the existence of long-standing field on energy. Quite frankly, the Government’s carbon information and consultation arrangements, both price floor tax fiasco has made things worse and given domestically and within the framework of the European all the wrong messages on energy prices. It is good that works council. That followed Tata reneging on a nationally they made a commitment on mitigation in relation to settled two-year secondment deal at Grangetown labs the renewables obligation, but we are in 2015 and will in September 2014, which was an early warning sign of have to wait until 2016 for that. Come on—try to bring a new tone, or lack of tone, from Tata. Communications it forward. between management and the work force were negligible, As my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East and Tata had had many clandestine chats with Klesch (Jessica Morden) said, business rates in the UK are five for some time. or six times more expensive than for our European What Skinningrove and the Lackenby beam mill competitors, which is surely something at which the produce has more than the balance sheet appeal that Government can look imaginatively. We need action to Mr Klesch requires; it impacts on daily life where I live. ensure that local content is pursued in the procurement A long drawn-out process of due diligence has again process, so that if, as we hope, the renewables industry unsettled that way of life for the workers and their takes off in the Humber and elsewhere, UK taxpayers families. They have watched workers at the ESCO works and energy bill payers are not funding jobs outside the in Guisborough lose their jobs, and have wondered UK, but securing jobs in the UK, as we would wish. We what will happen to them. Whether Mr Klesch picked also need support, with the Government putting their that up during his 20-minute visit to the Skinningrove shoulder to the wheel, on innovation and skills. works—he never even went near the mill floor—is, at This debate is an opportunity for the House to say the very least, debatable. very clearly that we see steel as a foundation of the UK What beats me is the logic of Tata at the moment. It economy, and that we are all proud to stand behind it to has decided to consolidate its business around its strip ensure that it delivers a prosperous and successful UK division, which is largely based in south Wales and economy in the future. I am proud to stand alongside Ijmuiden, with a heavy focus on supplying the automotive the steelworkers in my constituency and in my community, sector. However, even now, the long products division in and to stand up for steel here today. the UK was significantly more profitable than the strip division in the last financial year. 6.11 pm Tata’s subsidiary Jaguar Land Rover plans to build Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East its new Jaguar F-Pace sport utility vehicle at Solihull, Cleveland) (Lab): We have nearly reached the fourth but the fact that it is aluminium-based indicates the anniversary of possibly the greatest feat of industrial direction in which the industry is moving. Tragically, escapology, when Teesside Cast Products was purchased that will come too late for the 500 aluminium smelters by SSI on 24 February 2011, after nearly three years of at Alcan in Northumberland, who have already lost solid fighting by its work force. At the heart of the their jobs owing to inaction by this Government. campaign was the Community trade union. It is my Aluminium is providing a serious challenge to steel pleasure to declare my interest as a current member of strip. The reduction in energy costs through the development Community, the chair of its parliamentary group, and a of smelters in low-cost energy countries is putting a former industrial regional officer who helped to save the strip-only strategy in serious doubt. TCP site. What makes the UK steel industry stronger is diversity I want to echo many of the comments made by my within the steel portfolio. Those in the industry remember hon. Friends about the importance of steel to our local not so long ago having to defend Stocksbridge from economy. I know that Tata and Community have worked closure. It is now booming within its sector. A diverse closely and constructively, particularly since the worldwide steelmaking sector provides mutual security for each recession in 2008, to manage a series of major restructurings. steel division. When one does well and another poorly, Under projects such as Weathering the Storm, Fit for they look after each other, much like in a trade union. 965 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 966

Even more seriously, Klesch’s strategy of playing the strike. We do not want to see that happen again. We do raw materials market in order to make longs a success—a not want to see steel plants in the UK placed in jeopardy. strategy that is based on cheap iron ore surpluses—is I am pleased that the national trade union steel exactly the same strategy that other competitors will be co-ordinating committee, which includes Community, using over the next two to three years. That strategy, the GMB and Unite, has hired the consultants Syndex despite the assurances, is not a panacea. Tata’s current to look at the alternatives. What are the Government diverse product mix within long products means that it doing to support Syndex in its work, and what will they is closer to the customer and can provide product-based actively do to ensure that the UK retains a long products bespoke solutions. Being a strip-only producer would capability? make it difficult for Tata Steel to integrate into integrated Sheffield was once the world’s biggest producer of construction solutions. steel. At one point, it made more steel than the rest of Inside the massive sheds at Skinningrove and Lackenby the world put together. We are proud of that legacy. We are human beings who are willing to work well for the have heard a lot today about family backgrounds. I benefit of our United Kingdom—men and women backed come from four generations of steelworkers, if not up by the spirit, traditions and history of Teesside, East more. Not only that, but my grandmother was a steelworker Cleveland and our nation. The trade unions that represent who drew wires at Arthur Lee, along with all her sisters. those men and women have played a fighting role in We in south Yorkshire are very proud of that legacy, preserving that heritage and protecting the jobs of their and the future of our industry matters. It matters members. Those trade unionists preserved the history economically, but it is also a matter of pride. of an industry, an area and a nation. It was the Community The Secretary of State spoke about the consolidation union, led locally by Paul Warren and nationally by Roy and the way in which the industry went into demise in Rickhuss and previously Michael Leahy, that spearheaded the early ’80s. In Sheffield, we know that all too well. the fight to ensure that iron and steelmaking on Teesside The memory of it is painful. We do not want to hear the did not die. It won that fight. The Government must history of the steelmaking industry rehearsed in the help the workers to win the fight now. Chamber time and time again. What we want to hear is what the Government are going to do about the future 6.16 pm of the steel industry. That matters to Sheffield. We want Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I to see Ministers standing up for steel and, in doing so, welcome this debate. As has been rehearsed already standing up for Sheffield, Teesside, Scunthorpe, Rotherham today, the importance of steel to the UK economy and Scotland. cannot be underestimated, and neither can its importance What needs to happen to ensure the future of our to my local economy in south Yorkshire. steel industry? There are three key things, and the Tata’s speciality steels operation, which was referred Secretary of State, to give him his due, pointed out to by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough clearly what they were: dealing with Chinese imports; South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), is developing an industrial strategy, although we heard headquartered at Stocksbridge in my constituency. As precious little about what that would be and what the my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Government would do to deliver it; and creating a level Dearne (John Healey) pointed out, it nearly went under playing field in energy costs and so on. A lot has been in 2008. He paid tribute to the trade unions and the said about energy costs, and I will not rehearse the same management of Tata in Stocksbridge for pulling the arguments, but I will mention business rates. plant around. I also want to pay tribute to my right Business rates are five to 10 times higher in the UK hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South than elsewhere in Europe, and complaints about the East (Mr McFadden), who as Minister of State worked rates facing the steel industry are beginning to reach my hard, alongside the unions and Members, to secure the ears in Stocksbridge on a regular basis. The review is future of the plant. not due to report until 2016, but the problem is pressing, so I want to hear what interim measures the Minister is John Healey: And the local councils. prepared to deliver to relieve the steel industry. Will he consider removing plant and machinery from business Angela Smith: Indeed, the local councils in Sheffield rates valuation as a short-term measure? and Rotherham were also involved. Of course, the The steel industry matters. It is a foundation industry, plants at Sheffield and Rotherham, which work in and our automotive and aerospace sectors rely on its partnership, survived. They are now back to the future. What are the Minister and the Government employment levels that they had in 2007-08. I have been going to do to secure its future? told that every third plane that flies over the United Kingdom has a component built into it that was made in Stocksbridge, which is a record to be proud of. 6.21 pm Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Like many other Members, John Healey: And Rotherham. I would like to pay tribute to all those in the steel industry, including the trade unions, who are working Angela Smith: That’s cars. hard to adapt, move, modernise and do everything they What has happened at Stocksbridge has not happened can to ensure that we are as efficient and competitive as everywhere. In October 2014, Tata announced that it possible. Diversity is key, as my hon. Friend the Member was selling its long products division. We stand together. for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) pointed People in Stocksbridge do not want the plants in Teesside, out, and in my constituency we have a Tata plant that Scotland and Scunthorpe to be sold off to Klesch. My makes all shapes and sizes of cans, along with holographic uncle worked for 20 years at Appleby-Frodingham in wrapping paper, which people might not realise is one Scunthorpe, but was made redundant after the steel of the steel products that we produce. 967 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 968

[Nia Griffith] works in decades. Energy policy has already been mentioned. Why on earth did anyone bring in a carbon Procurement at all levels of government is vital to the floor price at that level? It was a ridiculous idea. Now, steel industry. One key point that has been made time with the state aid difficulties with the energy-intensive and again is that low demand is one of the biggest package, we have to sort it out. It would have been far problems facing the steel industry. That is where the better not to have set the price that high in the first Government can step in and do things straight away. place. We were punishing ourselves, unilaterally, when Why on earth did they not continue with construction we belong to a perfectly good mechanism in the EU, projects in 2010? Why did they slash, for example, the and our Ministers should be in there, negotiating the plans for rail electrification to south Wales, meaning next stage so that the steel industry is not disadvantaged. that we had to go through a whole process to get them I fully support my hon. Friend the Member for reinstated? If we had pressed ahead with construction Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) on the projects much faster, it would have been much better for issue of CARES, and I am horrified at the complacency the steel industry there and then. However, it is not too I have seen from the Government. That steel needs to be late now for the Government to turn around and push sorted so we can ensure that— forward all the promised infrastructure projects, of which very few have been started. We need to start immediately, Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. to provide a market for the steel industry. Of course, we should use UK supply chains. That is 6.26 pm possible, because community benefit clauses can be Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ used. Other EU countries do it and get around the EU Co-op): The steel industry has a proud history in Cardiff rules in that way, so we should push the boat out and be South and Penarth, particularly in the community where brave. We should explore the limits of what we can do I live: Splott and Tremorfa. Although East Moors and ensure that we bring home jobs for the UK. Why do steelworks was closed in 1978, Cardiff remains a major we want to procure here in the UK? First, safeguarding centre for steel production, especially the reinforcing jobs locally is vital for us, as is safeguarding the future bar that is used in construction and infrastructure of our industry and ensuring that we do the right thing projects—such as Crossrail—across the UK. for our balance of payments. Procuring in the UK is I am proud that my constituency is home to Celsa also environmentally better, because it means that we Steel, a family owned company. It has an EU-wide are not bringing products thousands of miles. We have footprint with 7,000 directly employed workers and higher standards of energy use than other countries, more than 30,000 indirect employees. That company and carbon leakage occurs when we import from elsewhere. puts sustainability at the core of its business plan, using In other words, other countries produce more carbon in a modern electric arc furnace to process 100% UK making the products than we do. scrap, with a melt shop that ranks among the top It is much like energy security—if we get rid of our 10% most efficient in terms of carbon emissions in the foundation industries, we are for ever dependent on EU. I pay particular tribute to the Celsa work force and imports. That is why it is vital not only to keep current the constructive working relationship between the managing jobs but to create future jobs, and to keep the skills base director of Celsa, Luis Sanz, and his team, including and ensure that we always have products such as steel James Ellis, and also to the trade union representatives, readily available. We will always want rail infrastructure including the Community representative, Roy Rickhuss, and construction work, and we will always want to and the senior representative at Celsa in Cardiff, Paul build power stations, wind turbines or whatever, so we Simmonds. should have steel products and the steel industry here. There is a united view in the company, and from We need to rebalance the economy away from financial hundreds of employees who have written to me over the services to the foundation industries. It is also true that past few months, as well as trade union and local the foundation industries are found more in the areas of Labour representatives, that much more needs to be Britain where there has been less economic development—in done to back the steel industry in Cardiff and across the other words, outside the south-east of England. Rebalancing UK, but those warm words must be backed up with towards foundation industries helps us all across the substantive action. I praise the Community union “Stand UK. up for Steel” campaign which is being launched today. Let me turn to research and development. In the It could not be more timely. autumn statement the Chancellor stopped raw materials Let me be clear: Celsa and the UK steel industry are from qualifying for R and D credits. That decision not asking for special treatment; they are asking simply needs to be reversed, so will the Minister ask the Chancellor for decisive and urgent action by the Government to to do that? Enhanced capital allowances need to be level the playing field. They want action not to posture used where they will have a real impact. It is also vital or erect barriers to free trade in our globalised world, or that we do not shilly-shally with lots of nonsense about to protect the industry from fair competition, but simply a referendum on staying in the EU, and put companies to level the playing field where damaging distortions are such as Tata in an impossible position where they would growing to our disadvantage. Despite countless be far more likely to invest in IJmuiden than Llanelli. It representations, meetings and letters to the Secretary of is vital to send the message that we will stay in the EU. State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Secretary We do not want to lose the industry because it wants to of State for Energy and Climate Change, the Minister be on mainland Europe where it knows it will have the responsible for steel, the Secretary of State for Wales—I market. am disappointed that he was not here today—and many We need a much more proactive industrial strategy in others, I am sorry to say that to date those have been which what we want is clear. Long-term investment is met with dither, delay, paralysing caution and bureaucratic vital to steel. It cannot work, day to day, year to year; it handwringing. 969 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 970

Let me raise some key issues. The point about energy the Government. In 2012, UK steel’s contribution to and compensation essentially boils down to a simple the economy was worth more than £45 billion. Clearly, question: would it be crazy if steel rebar currently used UK steel reaps strong benefits for the whole economy. in British construction and infrastructure, and made by Steel has a strong history in Yorkshire and the Humber, Celsa in my constituency using state-of–the-art low-carbon and currently employs almost 7,500 people in the region. technology, was instead produced elsewhere in the world I want to compete with my hon. Friend the Member for where there is no such regard for emissions or the Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith). The specialist environment? Other EU countries, including Germany steel contribution of my constituency means that every and France, are providing additional help to their energy- five seconds an aircraft reliant on Rotherham steel takes intensive industries to level the global playing field, but off or lands somewhere in the world. what has been this Government’s approach? They promised The impact and reach of the UK steel industry is mitigation for the carbon floor price from April 2013, vast, and it is our duty to ensure it remains so. However, but that was delayed and put in place only from March keeping the industry strong means creating a level playing 2014. Although the Chancellor announced a package of field, a situation that does not exist at the moment. Our compensation for the renewables obligation in last year’s steel firms are severely disadvantaged both by business Budget, as we heard, that is not due to start until rates and energy costs. On energy in particular, prices April 2016. paid by UK steel firms are more than double those paid We now understand that the Government are heading in competitor countries such as Norway and Germany. for a significant underspend in their much-trumpeted High energy prices, combined with business rates five to £250 million compensation package for the energy-intensive 10 times higher than in other European countries, means industries in 2013-15. I was intrigued by the Secretary that UK steel finds itself at a severe disadvantage when of State’s comments on the real reasons for the delays in pitched against manufacturers in the EU and internationally. the programme. I would be very interested to find out The Chancellor proposed a review into business rates in further from the Minister what is really going on. Will the autumn statement. I welcome that, but we need the Government urgently reconsider bringing forward action more quickly than the promised 2016 report. UK the mitigating measures? They are needed and they are steel needs to be competitive now. needed now. We already face the threat of a significant loss to the On foreign imports, rebar from countries such as industry, with the sale of Tata Steel’s long products China and Turkey—this has been discussed—now occupies division. I, and a number of my constituents, have a third of the market. Non-EU imports have increased expressed our strong concern about that. I ask that the tenfold in the past two years. Those are extraordinary Government strongly consider giving a commitment to statistics. The fact is that many of those products are work with Syndex and the unions to look at alternatives produced using large amounts of finite raw materials to the sale. before being shipped to the UK. In contrast, places In Rotherham, the same failure to consult has been such as Celsa in my constituncy have an efficient recycling replicated locally in the move of 135 research and process. We have heard how overall steel imports have development jobs to Warwick. The R and D staff in risen by a quarter in 2014 and now make up a massive Rotherham are world-class experts dedicated to working 60% of the UK market. As has been discussed, serious in this specialist field. Tata Steel is asking to move them, questions are being raised about some of those imports uprooting them and their families, to Warwick or potentially from a quality perspective and a lack of traceability in lose their jobs. That seems deeply unfair. The relocation the supply chain. I believe that the certifying authority is a lose-lose situation: Tata could lose skilled workers for steel products, the Certification Authority for Reinforcing and those workers could lose their livelihoods. I ask Steels, has been too slow and ineffective in its response today that the Government intervene to support to date, and so have the Government. I would like Rotherham’s R and D team by working closely with clarity from the Government on this issue. Tata Steel and the unions to establish an alternative I want to draw specific attention to the charter for solution. It is not right that such a concentration of sustainable British steel, which has been launched today highly skilled workers is lost, particularly, as the Secretary by UK Steel and producers such as Celsa. I urge support of State said, as the advanced manufacturing centre’s for its reasonable and straightforward demands, urging catapult scheme and the steel proving factory are both consumers in the UK to purchase carbon steel in Rotherham. reinforcement from vendors that adhere to the framework Ultimately, we want steel to thrive in the UK, because standard for responsible sourcing, BES 6001. it is a critical part of our supply chain, but the future Any one of the issues I have outlined is enough to put sustainability of the industry will be under threat, unless serious strain on any business. The Minister, and the the Government act quickly and strategically to safeguard Ministers involved in this industry, should be left in no UK steel. The industry needs a Government willing to doubt that the risks are real and intensifying. They act now on energy tariffs and business rates. We need a require urgent and robust action from the UK Government. Government who will proudly fly the flag for UK steel If capacity is lost it may be lost for ever, with dire across the world. We need a Government who not only consequences not only for employees but our economy commit to supporting the industry, but follow up with and infrastructure supply chains. action. The UK steel industry can have a strong future, but only if we act now to protect it. 6.31 pm Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): UK steel is 6.35 pm critical to our economy. It employs more than 330,000 Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): I am proud to be workers across the country, people whose wages are a member of Community and a founder of the all-party then invested in their local communities and in taxes to group on steel in the 2001 Parliament. I also draw the 971 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 972

[Dr Hywel Francis] 6.40 pm Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I declare my House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ interest as a member of the wonderful Community Financial Interests, which refers to the fact that I had union; I am very proud to be so. We have had an the privilege of addressing the Community biennial important and critical debate, sending out a strong conference last year. message not just to the steel industry that we stand up I represent the proud steel town of Port Talbot. The for steel, but to the Government that more needs to be late great Jack Thomas, of the Union of Construction, done. It is a sad indication of the Government’s Allied Trades and Technicians, once said that Sir Brian commitment to this issue that we have heard only one Moffat wore an Aberavon rugby jersey. I am not sure speaker from the Government side—the hon. Member whether he always wanted to wear it, but I am proud to for Redcar (Ian Swales)—and nobody from the wear my Aberavon rugby tie today. Conservative party. The Government Benches have been This has been a good, constructive and timely debate, almost completely empty for the majority of this debate. and it has raised the key issues of energy costs, the This is not to belittle the contribution of the hon. importance of steel as a foundation industry and—the Member for Redcar, but if someone lives in Redcar and point I want to elaborate on—the importance of wants a party that stands up of for steel, they should co-operation among the unions, management and the vote for the Labour party and get their MP on the Government. In Port Talbot, we have developed an Government Benches. important initiative, called “the journey”, which in essence It is worth emphasising the importance of the industry is a microcosm of that co-operation. Given the many to this country. The UK steel industry and associated important issues, it is understandable that duty of care metals sector has 24,000 firms employing more than has not been mentioned. The steel unions, particularly 330,000 people and generating £45.5 billion in the UK Community, have a proud record of representing their economy. Every directly employed job in the sector members, but they also have a duty of care to the steel sustains a further three jobs in the wider economy. industry. I want to mention two aspects of that: first, Today’s debate is important, too, because steel is a safety; and secondly, pensions. foundation for supply chains of strategic sectors such aerospace, automotives, construction and energy, which My cousin, Ian Powell of South Cornelly, a mill boy are so important to the UK economy. The debate is aged 16, was killed in the steelworks at Port Talbot, and important because steel is an essential part of a low-carbon, shortly after I was elected in 2001, Len Radford, Stephen resource-efficient future. Galsworthy and Andrew Hutin were killed in the terrible explosion in the No. 5 blast furnace. No one in the steel All these points have been raised consistently by my industry needs reminding of the price of steel. In my right hon. and hon. Friends, and particularly in the regular discussions with steel union representatives, wonderful opening speech made by my hon. Friend the including Alan Coombs, the national vice-president of Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright). The Secretary of Community, John Tetsill, also of Community, and David State was ungenerous in his praise for my hon. Friend. I Bowyer, of Unite, safety is always the first issue discussed. thought my hon. Friend made a very positive speech, In these straitened, strained and difficult times, safety outlining the industry’s problems, and it is important to should remain the top priority. In our discussions with raise with the Government our concerns about their the hub director of Strip Products UK, Mr Hridayeshwar actions in supporting the sector. Jha, he has recognised that point too. Recently, we have There is no bigger or more passionate supporter in been discussing the issue of contractors working at this House of steel and manufacturing than my hon. height and the need for the proper training of scaffolders, Friend the Member for Hartlepool. He stands up for his particularly contractors. constituents’ jobs and he stands up for his constituents in promoting the steel industry. Indeed, we should call On pensions, frequent mention has been made of the him “Mr Hartlepool” and “Mr Manufacturing”. He future ownership of the steel industry, and there is does so much for current generations in Hartlepool and great concern across the industry about what will looks after the future as well. During his opening remarks, happen to the steel pensions scheme. The Government, my hon. Friend was right to say that steel has to be a employers and unions need to recognise the importance key part of the vision of a modern innovative economy. of their duty of care to steelworkers past, present and The UK steel and metal sector, as our motion rightly future. makes clear, provides highly skilled jobs—not just in my When I entered the House in 2001, there was an hon. Friend’s constituency, but throughout the United enormous air of uncertainty, and as I leave the House, Kingdom, and we have heard contributions from Sheffield, in 2015, there remains an enormous air of uncertainty Scunthorpe, Corby, Cardiff, Port Talbot, Newport and around the steel industry. In between, particularly in Clydebridge and Motherwell in Scotland. Port Talbot, there have been many redundancies, but My hon. Friend was absolutely right in his opening there has also been considerable investment, much of remarks to highlight the significant economic contribution which has been off the back of the effective co-operation that those facilities make through the wealth created by developed between the unions and the management. I the plants and by the workers who make the steel. The also commend the Welsh Government—this has not wealth that is circulated in firms in the supply chain and been mentioned—for supporting, training and helping businesses in those areas, not to mention through the steelworkers past and present. I hope and trust that the steelworkers themselves, is often the foundation of many co-operation among unions, employers and Governments, local economies. My hon. Friend stressed that the steel which we Labour Members have urged tonight, will be industry is the foundation of many valuable sectors of achieved in order to sustain this important industry, the economy, forming part of a number of important which is vital for this country. value chains in which Britain has a competitive advantage. 973 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 974

I have a number of pages to my speech and I would he mentioned the dangers involved in Tata’s sale of the have liked to have run through them, but it is probably long products division to Klesch, which has been raised much better to reflect on the wonderful contributions in a number of other debates. made by my right hon. and hon. Friends. We heard My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic speakers from Wales, from England and from Scotland Dakin) speaks passionately about the steel industry in who all had two things in common: standing up for steel his constituency. He is one of the many Members who and being Labour Members. Members from no other spring to mind and are always talked about in the same party—apart from the hon. Member for Redcar, who I fashion when steel and manufacturing are discussed in am delighted to see back in his place—spoke in this the House. He was right to praise Tata’s contribution to debate. the United Kingdom in the form of investment in skills I was delighted when my right hon. Friend the Member and diversification—it has invested in a number of for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) mentioned industries—but he was also right to worry about the the contribution of the Community union to this debate future. That, too, was a common theme in the debate. and reminded us that the union’s general secretary said: My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough “UK steel companies need a UK Government that can intervene South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) spoke of just as they do in France and Germany.” the way in which the trade unions, Tata and the regions That was brought out as part of the general debate. My worked together to improve the position of the steel right hon. Friend also spoke up for his Aldwarke plant, industry following the 2008 worldwide crash. He made explaining how it was saved in the past by proper a point that was at the heart of the debate when he said co-operation among the trade unions, the Government that it was all about livelihoods—people’s lives and and the owners. communities—and not just about steel manufacturing Let me especially mention and pay particular tribute and Government intervention. The Minister may wish to my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and to reflect on some of his comments. Wishaw (Mr Roy)—a steelworker himself for many My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and years. Whenever he speaks in this House or when we Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) told us that four generations speak privately and professionally together, he talks of of her family had worked in the steel industry, including his love for the steel industry. He stands up for his her grandmother. I think that that is a wonderful model constituents in Motherwell and Wishaw, and he is a for those working in the industry. strong advocate of steel and jobs in his constituency. I was struck by what he said about all the processes The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy involved in the steel industry. It is not just about forging (Mr Edward Vaizey): And her grandmother’s sisters. and blacksmiths; it is about the cleaners, about the accountants, about the drivers, and about the wider supply chain. It is about every single business that the Ian Murray: The Minister may want to mention that industry supports in his constituency. in his speech. We were also reminded earlier of the contribution that my hon. Friend made in highlighting My hon. Friend also referred to the Scottish the Government’s decision about Sheffield Forgemasters. Government’s approach to the steel industry. It was an absolute dereliction of duty for them to import My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) £790 million-worth of steel from Poland, Spain and spoke about the steel industry in her constituency. She China for the new Queensferry crossing when there was said that it was a proud British industry that should a plant 35 miles down the road. We need Governments form an integral part of the future. My hon. Friend the to stand up for industry in this country, rather than Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) being full of rhetoric about standing up for it. Standing pointed out that, in a globalised world, we did not want up for it in practice is slightly different. protectionism; all that we want is a level playing field. I think that that is a very sensible and pragmatic approach. We heard a valuable contribution from my hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden), Champion) is not just called Champion; she champions who rightly pressed the Government to do more. That the steel industry and jobs in her constituency. has been a common theme in the debate. I hear the members of the Scottish National party chuntering My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis) behind me, but the facts speak for themselves. Moreover, is a founder member of the all-party parliamentary none of them contributed to the debate, just as they did group on steel and metal related industries. We shall not contribute to debate on the urgent question on steel certainly miss his contribution to steel debates when he that was asked back in November. My hon. Friend leaves the House later this year. He ended with a poignant spoke of the pressures on the steel plants in her constituency. reminder of the dangers involved in the industry; we As she explained, Tata and other companies have invested should all remember those whom he lost in the tragedies in key industries in her constituency for many years, but in his constituency. they cannot continue to do that in isolation, and the We have had a wonderful debate, which has shown Government must help. that Labour Members, at least, stand up for steel. Our The Clydebridge plant in Cambuslang is in the motion makes clear the importance of the steel industry constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen to this country. The industry supports tens of thousands and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex). It is a centrepiece of jobs, and supports many of the supply chains that not just of the constituency as it is now, but of the are key UK sectors. It supports communities and livelihoods. constituency’s industrial heritage. However, as my hon. The Government must provide a co-ordinated response Friend reminded us, it should be not just part of the that involves energy-mitigation measures, challenges the past, but part of the future. He pointed out that European Union in regard to certification and safety, procurement was vital, and, like many other Members, and supports an active industrial strategy for the metals 975 Steel Industry14 JANUARY 2015 Steel Industry 976

[Ian Murray] sale, which I hope I will have a chance to speak about. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East industry in the United Kingdom. It is time for the Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) also talked about the long Government to stand up for steel. Labour clearly stands products division and is a worthy successor to that great up for it, but we want the Government to support it as former Member of this House, Ashok Kumar, who, as well. I commend our motion to the House. well as having been a distinguished Member of this House, is the only Member who has ever read John 6.49 pm Vaizey’s “The History of British Steel”. We heard, too, from the hon. Members for Penistone and Stocksbridge The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy (Angela Smith) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), and the (Mr Edward Vaizey): Let me begin by agreeing with the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray)—who Doughty), who talked, obviously, about Celsa in his lived up to his reputation of being an articulate and constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of passionate Member of this House—that this has been a Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), who is sitting on the Front good and important debate on the steel industry. It is Bench with me, has been passionately involved in this important to note that there will be no Division at the issue, as indeed has the Secretary of State for Wales, end of the debate, because the Government take no who was in the Chamber earlier discussing the issue issue with the Opposition motion. with me and the Business Secretary. The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) set The hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) out a coherent and passionate case for what he perceives made the point that every five seconds a plane made to be the issues affecting the steel industry in this with steel from Rotherham takes off or lands—challenging, country, and there was some suggestion that the Secretary in effect, the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge of State replied to him in a somewhat churlish manner. (Angela Smith), who was only able to say that of one in I have worked closely with the Secretary of State for three planes flying overhead. The final contribution was many years now, and I have to say that I have always from the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), found him to be one of the more congenial members of whose daughter went to school with my hon. Friend the the Government, and I simply think that perhaps his Member for Vale of Glamorgan, and whom we are manner was misinterpreted. He was perhaps less churlish sorry to see retiring from the House. and more wounded. That is how I would characterise the Secretary of State’s response, because he clearly Mr Frank Roy: Before he sits down, would the Minister articulated the many visits he has made to the steel like to tell the thousands and thousands of steelworkers’ industry itself and industries that use steel, and his families watching or reading this debate what he is great engagement with the industry, and his own perception going to do for their future? that he is engaged with, and seeking to provide solutions to, many of the issues highlighted by the hon. Gentleman. Mr Vaizey: If I am unable to answer any of the This has been a good and passionate debate because specific questions that were asked in the time allocated so many Opposition Members have strong links with to me, the Minister responsible for the industry will this industry. As the hon. Member for Edinburgh South write to each and every Member who has contributed to noted, we heard speeches from those who have worked the debate. in the steel industry and those whose families have a The main issues that arose from the debate are the long and distinguished history of working in this brilliant need to compensate the steel industry for the high industry. It is an industry that began in this country energy costs resulting from the renewables obligation hundreds of years ago and, as some Opposition Members and other mechanisms designed to reduce carbon, a know, I have a tenuous connection with it as my father procurement strategy as part of a metals strategy, business wrote “The History of British Steel”, published 40 years rates, the future of the long products division, and ago. My father had a somewhat waspish sense of humour; CARES. As the Secretary of State explained at length, he died 30 years ago, and I suspect he would find it we are giving as much energy compensation as we are mildly amusing that his son has now spoken in three allowed to give under European rules. We are working debates on the steel industry on behalf of the Government as fast as we can to get state aid clearance, so that we despite not having formal responsibility for the industry. can increase the level of compensation. We are working However, I can tell Opposition Members that should with industry to introduce a metals strategy. We hope they ever call a debate on the south London barge-building that such an industry-led strategy will be produced in industry, I will be there to talk about the history of the the next few months, to be published, provisionally, in Vaizeys who worked in that industry from the mid the summer. 19th century until just after the second world war. The future of the long products division is a very We heard passionate contributions from the right serious issue and Ministers are engaged with it. The hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), Prime Minister and the Business Secretary met north who talked about energy tax and procurement, and the Lincolnshire MPs, and the Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), who has Tata in Minister with responsibility for such matters met Klesch. his constituency. We also heard from the hon. Member As I understand it, our officials are supporting the for Motherwell and Wishaw (Mr Roy), who has worked Syndex report, which will be published this month and in the steel industry, the hon. Member for Newport will look at the rationale for sale and alternative proposals. East (Jessica Morden), the hon. Member for Rutherglen We hope that the proposals will come forward at the and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), who talked about end of February or the beginning of March. Those the infrastructure opportunities for the steel industry, could include a commercial solution or working with and the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who organisations such as the Green Investment Bank or talked in detail about the long products division potential Infrastructure UK. 977 Steel Industry 14 JANUARY 2015 978

As has been well trailed, an extensive review of business emissions; further notes with concern that some steel imports do rates is being undertaken, and a £1 billion package of not meet British standards; calls on the Government to recognise business rate support is already in place. We do understand the importance of the steel industry and to work with it, the that the steel industry, like other large industries, is Scottish and Welsh Governments and trade unions to provide a co-ordinated plan for the industry’s future; urges the Government concerned that new investment in plant and equipment urgently to reconsider whether mitigating measures on energy affects the business rate valuation, thereby increasing prices, planned to start in April 2016, can be brought forward to business rates. It wants such new investment to be support the competitiveness of UK steel producers, to press the excluded, and I would expect the Treasury to consider European Commission to launch an inquiry into the CARES that as part of its ongoing consultation. However, Members certification of imported steel products to ensure safety and should understand that this includes the whole business traceability and to take action through the EU and World Trade rate framework, and needs to be consulted on. Organisation to challenge the uncompetitive subsidisation of steel products; and further calls on the Government to introduce an active industrial policy for the metals industry, including Tom Blenkinsop: Will the Minister give way? strengthening supply chains, strategic approaches to public sector procurement, encouraging innovation, skills development and Mr Vaizey: I will, provided that other Members resource efficiency and providing support for steel exporters. understand that doing so will reduce my time to address other points of concern to the thousands of steelworkers Business without Debate watching this debate.

Tom Blenkinsop: Perhaps the Minister can give a DELEGATED LEGISLATION succinct answer. Given that the Government are not Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing opposing the motion, they must support it. The motion Order No. 118(6)), “urges the Government urgently to reconsider whether mitigating measures on energy prices, planned to start in April 2016, can be CONSTITUTIONAL LAW brought forward”. That the draft Reservoirs (Scotland) Act 2011 (Restrictions on Could they be brought forward before or at the Budget? Disclosure of Information in relation to National Security etc.) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 18 November 2014, be approved.—(Mr Foster.) Mr Vaizey: We are in the hands of the European Commission. There is a bottleneck on state aid and, Question agreed to. having previously dealt with a state aid issue myself, I know that despite time being of the essence from the PETITION UK Government’s perspective, that is not always the Commission’s view. On energy prices, I remind Members Persecution of Christians in Pakistan that France has the benefit of extensive nuclear power, and Germany has the benefit of having grandfathered 7pm previous state aid rights into its current energy prices and state aid support. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I should like to As I have said in other debates, the important issue of present a petition on behalf of the Nelson Asian Christian rebar has been looked at in some detail and we have Fellowship regarding the plight of minorities living in asked CARES to examine how it is dealing with it. It Pakistan. I was presented with the petition, signed by has increased sampling and checks— more than 200 of my constituents, when I joined them for worship in the run-up to Christmas and I said I Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed would bring it to the attention of the House. to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). The petition states: Question put forthwith, That the Question be now The Petition of residents of Pendle, put. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the laws of Pakistan Question agreed to. systematically discriminate against non-Muslims and leads to the persecution of Christians such as Shahzad Masih and Shama Main Question put and agreed to. Bibi, who were beaten, tortured and burned alive on 4th November Resolved, 2014. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons That this House recognises the importance of the UK steel urges the Government to use its influence to encourage the industry including as a provider of highly-skilled jobs and research Pakistani authorities to ensure that perpetrators of hate attacks and development; values the steel supply chain which supports against minorities are convicted; the Blasphemy Laws are abrogated; strategic industries such as automotive, aerospace and construction; modern day slavery in Pakistan is ended; Asia Bibi is released; notes with concern Tata’s proposed sale of its Long Products and that aid to Pakistan is terminated until its human rights Division and the impact this could have on UK steel industry record is improved. capacity; welcomes the efforts of UK steel producers to cut carbon emissions and expresses concern that losing trade to And the Petitioners remain, etc. countries with less efficient processes could increase global carbon [P001421] 979 14 JANUARY 2015 Horticulture (Skills and Training) 980

Horticulture (Skills and Training) make its way into the history books as its rose fields disappear under a massive housing estate, following the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House dastardly decision to allow them to be lost to development, do now adjourn.—(Mr Foster.) which the local community does not want. Let me make a further local observation. The people’s 7.1 pm choice garden at last year’s internationally acclaimed Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Each year, twice Chelsea flower show, “Hope on the Horizon”, which as many people visit the gardens of England as watch was created in association with Help for Heroes, was premiership football—around 28 million versus 14 million. later taken to Colchester, where I can confirm it is an Horticulture is a great British success story, but it is an attractive feature in the grounds of the Chavasse VC industry in crisis. There is not enough home-grown House recovery centre for members of Her Majesty’s talent for the industry to sustain itself without increasingly armed forces who have been injured. The garden was importing skilled labour from overseas. Successive designed by a 29-year-old first-time exhibitor at Chelsea, Governments, and the education establishment, can be landscape designer Matt Keightley. What a great role blamed for this. Horticulture has not been seen as model for young people, to whom the horticulture important; it is not something that young people have industry can point for aspiring youngsters to look up been encouraged to pursue as a career. to! The coalition Government can take great pride in the People love gardens, both their own and those they way they have developed apprenticeships over the past can visit. I am told that the Royal Horticultural Society four to five years in many areas of the British economy. is the world’s largest gardening charity, with a growing However, there is still more to be done in horticulture. membership that exceeds 420,000—that is more than In 2010-11, only 1,060 of the more than 200,000 the combined membership of the UK’s mainstream apprenticeships completed were in horticulture, and political parties. In 2013, the RHS published a cross-industry only 10 of those were in production horticulture. Elsewhere, report, “Horticulture Matters”, supported by 180 there has been a renaissance for apprenticeships after horticulture organisations, including the Chartered Institute the years of decline and failure by so many parts of of Horticulture, Lantra, the Horticultural Trades industry and commerce during which something that Association, Landex, the British Association of Landscape had stood the nation in good stead for centuries had Industries, English Heritage, the Royal Botanic Gardens, become, in many respects, a neglected concept. While Kew and Grow. The report was launched by the then that decline has to a large extent been challenged and Minister with responsibility for agriculture and food, reversed under this Government, that has not been the my good friend and colleague, my hon. Friend the case in horticulture, and the industry’s needs for skills Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath). At the and training are at a crossroads. I hope, however, that time he said the UK is facing the Minister can bring good news on that front, because “a serious issue as we look forward in terms of food security and a little bird tells me that there might be an announcement feeding the UK and the world. We have to have the best possible during the next month. skills.” Last year, in partnership with the Colchester Daily That, of course, is what my debate is all about. He Gazette newspaper, the Colchester Institute and the continued: National Apprenticeship Service in the east of England, “We have got to invest in this sector—we’ve got to understand I launched a campaign for local businesses to recruit some of the messages in the report and react to that. We can work 100 apprentices in 100 days. We soared past that target, with the industry to massively improve its prospects.” and more than 150 young people were placed in In June last year, the then Secretary of State for apprenticeships. Sadly, not a single one was in horticulture, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs started an initiative yet that is a part of the country where horticulture and to identify the key opportunities and challenges in the food growing are still a major part of the landscape, so ornamental horticulture sector, with the aim that the perhaps the industry should also be asking questions of industry should agree an action plan to take forward itself. with Government support. So that we can have it placed There is some good news, in that across the border in on the official record, will the Minister this evening say Suffolk, Otley college has horticulture courses. It is now where we are with the promised “action plan”? a good 55 years since I gained my gardening badge in Lantra, the land-based and environmental industries the scouts—something that my wife, children and sector skills council—it covers horticulture—estimates grandchildren find hilarious when they observe my that horticulture will need 595,000 more people by the current efforts. My excuse is that I lead a busy life. I love end of this decade As 2020 is only five years away, the gardens, and we would be hard-pressed to find any need is very urgent if overcoming such a large skills better than those in the award-winning Colchester Castle shortage is to be achieved. In doing so, it will be park, or at Beth Chatto’s gardens a few miles to the necessary to educate an educational establishment that east. undervalues the role of those who work in the horticulture My town was once renowned for its roses. The Colchester sector. Perhaps that is due to a lack of understanding of rose show, at which my paternal grandfather was a the breadth of work that horticulturists do, and of its leading member—he has a cup named in his memory—was importance to the well-being of the planet and its once a major event in the town’s summer calendar. inhabitants, by which I mean all forms of life. Today, it is a shadow of its former glory, kept going by a The stigma that is attached to careers in the horticulture small group of enthusiasts, whom I commend. Professional industry was recently underlined by a survey by the rose growers from Colchester used to win many cups RHS, supported by the wider horticulture industry, and prizes at national shows. Sadly, only one company, which showed that 70% of 18-year-olds believe that Cants of Colchester, remains, and I fear it will soon horticultural careers should be considered only by people 981 Horticulture (Skills and Training)14 JANUARY 2015 Horticulture (Skills and Training) 982 who have failed academically. Almost 50% of under-25s eat. At this point, I pay tribute to the National Farmers are of the opinion that horticulture is an unskilled Union for its work in this area. It is a founding member career—that is insulting and ignorant in equal measure. of the agri-skills forum, which addresses skills and With horticulture wrongly seen to be lacking career training issues throughout agriculture and horticulture. appeal, increasing numbers of horticulture businesses Today, we are only 63% self-sufficient in vegetables and struggle to fill skilled vacancies and are being forced to salads, and the figure is declining, and only 40% self- recruit from overseas. British jobs for British people are sufficient in fruit. The spirit that rallied the British available—more than 100,000 each and every year over people on the home front during two world wars is the next five years, and not exclusively in the horticulture needed now. industry, but across the land-based and environmental We had a gardening class at primary school, but not sectors. It is essential that we act now to change the at secondary school, which brings me back to what this public perception of skills and careers in the horticulture debate is all about: promoting skills and training in the industry. Horticulture contributes £9 billion to the UK horticulture industry. The Government need to work economy each year. Gardening plays such an important with the industry on three priorities: improving the role in everyday lives that garden products make up perception of horticulture among the population; 1.7% of all UK retail sales. supporting horticulture in education and training; and Gardening centres in Colchester, which I visit at safeguarding UK horticulture with financial support weekends, are always busy. Local economies benefit for research into plant science and other initiatives. A from a thriving horticulture sector as the “green” appeal positive response from the Minister will give the British of parks and other green spaces attracts businesses, horticultural industry the boost it needs, particularly in residents and customers to an area. Horticulture also respect of skills and training. benefits the tourism industry by attracting millions of people to our nation’s stately homes, nature reserves—I 7.15 pm recommend those of the Essex wildlife trust—and public, The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy private and charitable gardens. (Mr Edward Vaizey): I apologise for it being me again. I A strong horticulture sector provides employment, seem to be dominating proceedings in the House this but, as I have mentioned, there is a serious shortage of afternoon, representing the Government across a range workers, which could be addressed through the promotion of fronts, from steel to vegetables. I congratulate my of skilled apprenticeships. When it comes to career hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) opportunities, the sector provides a huge variety of on an important and timely debate on the horticulture roles, all of which require a diverse set of professional industry. He is quite right that we do not have enough and practical skills. I am talking about crop growers, time to go into all the issues that we could cover under gardeners, scientists, tree surgeons and turf specialists the auspices of this debate. Certainly, I could have to name just a few. carried on listening to him for a great deal longer, By the end of this century, it is estimated that particularly his pun-tastic approach in talking about temperatures in major UK cities could rise by as much home-grown skills. as 4%. However, increasing the amount of “green I was interested to hear about my hon. Friend’s boy infrastructure” by 10% could entirely offset the impact scout gardening badge, which shows that we are never of rising temperatures in such high-density urban centres. too old to learn a new skill. He was slightly modest in Horticulture has the power to mitigate the consequences outlining his horticultural achievements. I have been of environmental change. It can help combat the harmful informed by a good source that he has made a prize-winning effects humankind is having on the environment. I blackcurrant jam. support the concept of “greening the urban environment”. Indeed I promoted it and had it approved at a Liberal Sir Bob Russell: Blackberry. Democrat party conference. I want to see more trees in our towns and cities. Indeed, growing trees is something Mr Vaizey: I stand corrected. that I practice as well as preach. I have been growing trees, mostly oaks from acorns, for more than 25 years. Mr Speaker: Order. I can personally testify to the truth of what has just been said. Planning policies of at least 70 years that include concreting and paving open land within commercial Mr Vaizey: I am unaware whether the hon. Member and residential developments must stop. Surface water from a Scottish constituency who stands poised to enter run-off could be mitigated by an increased amount of the Chamber has sampled this jam, but it is depressing vegetation and “green space infrastructure”, helping to that 60% of the Members present have sampled it and reduce localised flooding during heavy rain. In the that I am in the 40% who have not. I trust that my hon. spirit of joined-up Government, does the Department Friend will rectify that as soon as possible. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs discuss such This could lead on, Mr Speaker, but I know you will matters with the Department for Communities and want me to get to the nub of the argument. I could start Local Government? How much better it would have talking about the Prime Minister’s prize-winning vegetables, been if the new housing developments in Colchester on but it is an important point to make that even those at the former cavalry barracks, the former Paxman’s factory the very top do take their horticultural skills seriously. I site and the Solus estate had considerably less paved know that my right hon. Friend is very proud indeed of areas and more trees, shrubs and gardens. the prize-winning marrow that often wins prizes in his The time allowed for this debate is sadly too short to local village competition. My hon. Friend mentioned cover all aspects of the subject—for example, how the farmers markets, and I am asked by an influential horticulture has a vital role to play in helping to overcome Member of the House to point out that the first farmers Britain’s chronic failure to grow more of the food we market took place in Bath. 983 Horticulture (Skills and Training)14 JANUARY 2015 Horticulture (Skills and Training) 984

[Mr Vaizey] available through the Skills Funding Agency for adult vocational training in horticulture, an increase of My hon. Friend also talked about the need for joined-up 11% on the previous year. government, and it is important that the points that he I hope that the perception to which my hon. Friend has made in the Chamber this evening are communicated referred—I stress that it was not a perception that he both to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate shared in the slightest—that working in horticulture is a Change, particularly with reference to the points my menial job which one can do if one has no qualifications hon. Friend made about the impact of the horticulture could not be more wrong. The climate is changing. industry on climate change, and to the Secretary of In some of the industries that I represent, such as the State for Business, Innovation and Skills, who will want fashion industry, there is a return to craftsmanship and to hear personally about the points that my hon. Friend old-fashioned skills. The crafts industry has achieved made about skills. notable success, and the “Made in Britain”, “Made in As my hon. Friend made clear in his excellent speech, England” and “Made in Scotland” tags are all becoming the horticulture industry is important to the UK, measures of quality and authenticity. Although I do not contributing £9 billion a year to our economy. It often have specific evidence to bring to bear on this point, I appears dry and desiccated constantly to refer to important suspect that the horticulture industry will benefit from industries in terms of their economic value, but Ministers that. I would like to work with my hon. Friend and have learned that to get some of the things that we need other Ministers to ensure that we change the perception for the industries that we look after, when we knock of the horticulture industry.As I said, we made £20 million on the door of the Treasury, we have to provide some available through the Skills Funding Agency. That is an kind of economic justification for the support we seek increase of 11% on the year before, so the investment is from it. going in. The “Horticulture Matters” report said that job My hon. Friend made a good point, which I make candidates often lack basic workplace skills and practical about a lot of the creative industries that I represent in experience. We have put together traineeships to tackle the Department for Culture, Media and Sport as well as that gap. As my hon. Friend knows, we have a new in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, Trailblazer project in the horticulture sector, which about the wide ecology that is supported. One talks focuses on a level 2 technician doing horticultural, fresh about horticulture and one may simply be talking about produce, arable and glasshouse work, a level 2 pack planting plants and trees, but a whole industry surrounds house operative, and a level 2 stock person for dairy, that that benefits from horticulture. That is why one sheep and pigs, which is not strictly horticulture, but the comes up with the figure of £9 billion. It is a diverse project covers agriculture and production as well as industry and it is closely linked to farming and agriculture, horticulture. These traineeships are an education and which get a great deal of prominence. training programme which includes work experience to My hon. Friend’s speech focused mainly on skills, give young people the skills and vital experience they and that is entirely appropriate because he identified a need to help them compete for apprenticeships or other skills gap and urged the Government to act as soon as jobs. The G Growers employer ownership pilot that I possible to try to close that gap. I am grateful for his mentioned should deliver 10,000 learning opportunities remarks in recognising that the Government have put at level 4 plus in the horticulture sector. an enormous amount of effort into the skills agenda. I The latest figures show that a step change is taking referred earlier to the Secretary of State for Business, place. We now see almost 5,000 horticulture apprentices Innovation and Skills, and a personal passion of his has at work. That is an increase of almost 250% since been both apprenticeships for young people and for 2009-10. The latest figures for higher education show adult education. When he was fighting for his budget that over 19,000 are studying an agriculture-related during the regrettable reductions in expenditure that we subject in higher education. These are the graduates have had, skills were very much at the forefront of this who will lead the profession well into the 21st century. thinking. My hon. Friend mentioned the food and farming plan, which we hope to publish at the end of the month. We have also adopted an employer-led approach to He wanted me to put that on record. It will look at food skills. It would be absurd for the Government to identify enterprise zones and potentially local development orders the skills that are needed. We need employers to come for local enterprise partnerships in food and farming to us, as my hon. Friend indicated, and tell us where businesses. It will also look at apprentices. The Department they think the skills gaps are, and then to work in for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is planning a partnership with us to look at how we can remedy that round-table conference in March to look at increasing skills gap. competitiveness and increasing growth in the food and We welcome the agri-tech strategy, which aims to farming industries. DEFRA is also working alongside ensure that the horticultural sector is equipped with the us in the Department for Business, Innovation and knowledge and skills that are needed by horticultural Skills. My hon. Friend, who talked about the need for employers. We are facilitating employer engagement joined-up Government, will be pleased to know that across a range of sectors, including horticulture, with DEFRA is working with BIS to promote apprenticeships our employer ownership pilot schemes, which are pilot in the industry. schemes owned by employers, giving them even more As Minister for the creative industries, I am not in a opportunity to take greater control of the skills agenda. position to annex the horticultural industry, but I think For example, the G Growers project has given £1 million there is a close link between the two. Those of us who to employers to train their staff in cutting-edge research occasionally go to the Chelsea flower show will know and agricultural techniques. We have made £20 million how unbelievably popular it is. Funnily enough, it is 985 Horticulture (Skills and Training)14 JANUARY 2015 Horticulture (Skills and Training) 986 popular with some of the elites in our society. I go there I should also say, in my role as heritage Minister, that occasionally—I am not referring to myself as part of we fully recognise—in working with the heritage lottery one of those elites, I hasten to add—and one sees fund, for example—the very important role that the captains of industry, as I think we can still call them, gardens of historic houses play in drawing in tourists flocking to it. We see there the nexus of advanced, and enhancing their role as visitor attractions. One only innovative and creative horticulture alongside architecture need visit Chatsworth, with the landscapes of Capability and design. In rather the same way as London fashion Brown, and, closer to my own home, the amazing week sits at the apex of the fashion industry, the Chelsea landscapes of Blenheim to see that this country has flower show sits at the apex of horticulture but is not taken the role of horticulture very seriously for many remote from it; it acts as a bellwether. Just as the centuries. catwalks of the London fashion show will be translated This is a timely and important debate. I think that into high street shops and the wider ecology of make-up, those involved in the horticulture industry all over the photography and magazines, the ideas piloted at the country will praise my hon. Friend for bringing these Chelsea flower show will percolate through the horticulture important matters to the attention of the House. industry. In talking about the image of the horticulture Question put and agreed to. industry, we should recognise that the crowds that gather at the Chelsea flower show represent a snapshot of the passion that exists in this country for gardening and 7.27 pm horticulture. House adjourned.

263WH 14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 264WH

We cannot get rid of these people; they are not Westminster Hall allowed to retire and they are not accountable to any constituency or electorate. The only way to get rid of them is through not the public of Great Britain, but the Wednesday 14 January 2015 grim reaper. One of the few House of Lords reforms there have been in this Parliament is to allow these people to retire, but only one has come forward—so we [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] made inducements to try to get them to retire. They can now use House of Lords facilities if they choose to House of Lords Reform retire, but they still will not do it. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting This is a ridiculous and absurd institution. The average be now adjourned.—(Harriett Baldwin.) age of Members of the House of Lords is now 70. How much does this political circus cost? Last year, it was almost £100 million. Our friends in the House of Lords 9.30 am do not come cheap—of course, they should not. They Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): It can claim £300 a day just for turning up to work. If that is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, is too much trouble for them, they can claim £150 a day Mr Howarth, for this all too short debate about what for working from home. The average peer—if there is we affectionately refer to as “the other place”, although such a thing—now costs a cool £28,000. it would be hard to imagine or conceive of another Some of them do work hard. We have lots of examples place like it in the world. of hard-working peers who turn up diligently, day after The House of Lords must now be about the most day, to put in the work, but all too many of them do bizarre, absurd and ridiculous political institution anywhere practically nothing for the money they are given by the in the world. Bloated, ermine coated and never been taxpayer. I do not want to pick on my Scottish peer voted, it is now an affront to every sense and notion of colleagues, but I had a cursory glance at the activity list democracy. There are now some 847 souls inhabiting of some of them who notionally, I believe, look after the place, which makes it the largest political legislature Scottish interests in the House of Lords. Again, although anywhere in the world, save the National People’s Congress some are diligent, hard-working individuals, all too of China. Like the Chinese politburo, it is a stranger to many do practically nothing for this taxpayer largesse. democracy, but, unlike that, it cannot even claim to have a constituency or represent anyone whatever. Mark Field: In this debate, it is important that we Who are these curious, strange people who inhabit look beyond House of Lords composition. The hon. this gold-plated, red-upholstered Narnia? The vast majority Gentleman refers to Scottish interests being looked are appointed: some by an independent appointments after by Scottish peers, but that is not their purpose. authority, but the vast majority by the Prime Minister They do not have a constituency interest; they are there from lists drawn up by the three establishment Westminster to scrutinise legislation. Will he go into a little detail parties. No other legislature in the world is composed about some of the worthy work done by a significant quite like that, other than Lesotho in southern Africa. number of peers—perhaps not all 800 or so, but certainly Peers are not all appointed: 86 hereditary peers have several hundred of them—who play that important role a role in our democracy because of birth right. They even though they have no representative interests? can scrutinise, initiate and consider our legislation because they are the first son of a family that won a decisive Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I battle in the middle ages. This is not an episode of beg for patience once again, because I am trying to “Game of Thrones”, but the fifth-largest economy in paint some background on the activities of the House the western world. of Lords and the nature of its Chamber. I do want to come on to that point, but it is important that the Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): taxpayers of the country understand the type of service I agree with much that the hon. Gentleman has said. that they get for the £100 million paid annually to Does he feel that it is any less desirable for there to be sustain these people. Some of them work hard, as he the first-born son of a family who have had an hereditary said, but some do next to nothing. peerage for six or seven generations than it is for there It is right and proper that we should look at these to be to be a large-scale donor to a political party or a people, because we cannot get rid of them or do anything superannuated council leader? That seems to be how about them. They are not accountable to any constituency. most of the people in that House have earned their Just as the hon. Gentleman and I, as parliamentarians, places over the past 15 years. are scrutinised, it is right that we should look at the activities of our colleagues and friends in the House of Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, Lords to assess whether we get value for money. because I have a few choice words to say about the That brings me back to the Scottish peers. They do appointees to the House of Lords. If he bears with me, I not represent any constituency, but when Scottish colleagues will come to those very points. and I turn up to events—I see that the hon. Member for We have the hereditaries, but to make the place even Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) is here—we more bizarre and surreal, 26 places are reserved for always see Scottish Lords in attendance, and again and bishops—but not just any ordinary bishops: they have again they tell us that our interests are looked after in to be Church of England bishops. The House of Lords the House of Lords on that basis. However, what we is the only legislature in the world that reserves places find is that Baroness Adams of Craigielea has claimed for clerics other than the Islamic republic of Iran. an eye-watering £50,000 but spoken in only two debates 265WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 266WH

[Pete Wishart] Lords and many of his sentiments will be shared across the nation. Perhaps he is coming on to this in his and never asked a written question since entering the speech, but does he agree about the need for a more Lords in 2005. Lord Kirkham has cost us £49,239, but democratised revising Chamber or would he dismiss it spoken in no debates and asked no written questions. entirely? Further down the list, there is our noble Friend Lord Elder who has cost us £50,000, spoken in two debates Pete Wishart: I am not a unicameralist, believe it or and asked no questions. He did, though, as a good not; a nation as complex and large as the United public servant, serve on the refreshments committee Kingdom needs a functioning supervisory Chamber. I between 2008 and 2013. will come on to suggest—I hope the hon. Gentleman That brings me to the impeccable, cultured tastes of bears with me—how we might make progress. This their lordships. In the past four years, they have got debate is about House of Lords reform, which I promise through some 17,000 bottles of fine champagne, which him I will come to. cost more than £260,000. What is unacceptable, however, and what the British people should put up with no longer, is that circus down Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I refer the in the other place, with the ridiculous spectacle of lords, hon. Gentleman to the advice in “Erskine May” on ladies, deference, forelock-tugging and the rest of it. We reference to Members of the House of Lords. It says: need a properly equipped legislature designed for the “It is considered undesirable that any member of the House of 21st century—not one designed for the middle ages, Lords should be mentioned by name, or otherwise identified, for something out of the 14th century. I will come to that the purpose of criticism of a personal…nature.” and to the clear principles that I wish to establish. It is, of course, in order for the hon. Gentleman to talk about what those Members do, how they are appointed Mark Field: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? and so on, but he is probably straying into inadvisable territory. Pete Wishart: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman one last time; I have been generous to him. I want to Pete Wishart: I am grateful, Mr Howarth, and I hear his speech. promise not to do it again. On champagne, it seems that the House of Lords Mark Field: The hon. Gentleman has been extremely rejected the vulgar variety served in the House of Commons; generous. He referred to the anachronistic election procedure according to a former Clerk, for hereditary peers, but does he not recognise that that “the Lords feared that the quality of champagne would not be as whole mechanism was put in place to ensure that the good if they chose a joint service” piecemeal reforms of 1999 were not the end of the matter? The sort of reforms that he and I would both with the House of Commons. That was reported to the support are perhaps more wholesale, but they require House of Commons Governance Committee. The having the anachronistic hereditary element. Let us get astonished Chair, the right hon. Member for Blackburn rid of the entirety of what we have at the moment—sweep (Mr Straw), said, the whole thing away—but without the anachronism, “Did you make that up?” there would probably be a reluctance to do the sort of The former Clerk assured him that he did not. radical reform that he and I would support.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Pete Wishart: As a result of the House of Lords Act the House of Commons (Tom Brake): Will the hon. 1999, the vast majority of the hereditaries were removed, Gentleman clarify that the champagne in the House of but we are still left with 86 or so, which has always been Lords is not free? It is paid for. considered unfinished business. Action has been a long time coming; they are still there—we still have people Pete Wishart: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman who have a role in our democracy due to birthright. clarified that: the champagne is not free—but by God it That is unacceptable. We are all democrats in this seems that our friends in the House of Lords certainly House. We cannot allow people to have a role in our like to quaff a good number of bottles of it over the democracy because they are the first son of their family. course of a year. We might laugh, and it is easy to poke fun at an It would be wrong and remiss of me, however, to institution that is so singularly absurd and bizarre, but claim that the House of Lords was totally undemocratic. there is a sinister role in the activities of the House of That is not the case and I would not like to mislead this Lords. It is sinister and open to abuse because it is an House in that respect. The Lords do have elections, appointed Chamber. We do not bother with the whole when the earls, the dukes, the ladies, the lords and the exercise of letting the public decide and construct the barons—the hereditary peers of the realm—get together Chamber down the road; instead, we leave it up to and have one of their now regular by-elections to decide politicians—and the temptation for politicians is to which among their number should continue to rule over stuff it full of their friends, cronies and placemen. us. It must be the weirdest constituency in the world—the If we need an elderly Member of Parliament to move most privileged and aristocratic electorate to be found on for a dynamic, thrusting, new young Member, give anywhere. the old one a place in the House of Lords. That dynamic, thrusting young Member might lose his seat—I am Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I looking at the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. (Stephen Twigg), although he did not take a place in the He is waxing lyrical in his diatribe against the House of Lords—so let us cushion the blow and let him continue 267WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 268WH with his political career by giving him a place in the The House of Lords, because of its nature, because it House of Lords. All too commonly we find that that is is an appointed body and because it does not bother to how the House of Lords is being used and abused. It is go through the whole process of elections to be accountable a place for cronies, placemen and time-servers. That is to constituencies is rife with such abuse and activity. not good enough. The British public deserve better. They deserve a scrutinising Even that is not what bothers me in particular. The Chamber that is beyond reproach, that is democratically thing that concerns me most, and which should concern decided and that they can get rid of if they are unhappy everyone in this House, are the donors—people who with its activities. have a place in our democracy, in the second Chamber Our political institutions have never been held in such of Parliament, whose only qualification seems to be contempt by the British public. We see that day in, day that they are able to give substantial and significant out. Trust and confidence in the Westminster establishment, sums to one of the three main establishment Westminster the Westminster elite who run this place, has never been parties. Those are the people who trouble me and who lower and that establishment has never been held in should trouble the rest of the United Kingdom, because such low esteem by the British public. I suggest that lots of people appointed by the political parties seem to when the public observe an undemocratic, ermine-ridden have no ability other than to manufacture large sums of House like the one down the road, it compounds their cash to sustain those political parties. That is not good strong sense of alienation from the whole process of enough. Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who I was hoping could be with us Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ this morning, tested that issue to its legal limit in the Co-op): I should tell the hon. Gentleman and other previous Parliament. He looked at the situation in the hon. Members that I am going to a Committee sitting House of Lords, saw connections with the highest levels shortly, so I will not be able to hear the end of the of the then Labour Government and said, “There is debate. I agree with practically everything the hon. something wrong here.” He then asked the Metropolitan Gentleman has said. Does he agree that any revising police to investigate, and we had one of the most Chamber that remains should be 100% elected by dramatic political police operations of recent years—the proportional representation, so that it will also be a “cash for honours” investigation. powerful check and balance on an over-mighty Government We saw a sitting Prime Minister, Tony Blair, being elected, as at present, by the undemocratic first-past-the-post questioned by police and the arrest of his chief fundraiser system? and other members of his staff. Charges were dropped— none were brought—not because there was no case to Pete Wishart: I know the hon. Gentleman’s record on answer or because a clean bill of health was presented, these issues. He has been a big advocate of House of but because no evidence was found. The Crown Prosecution Lords reform, and I congratulate him on his efforts. I Service felt that it could not proceed with the case. We agree with him. I disagree, however, with the Labour can all make up our minds about the type of influence party’s position on the issue. I debated it on television that can be exerted on the CPS and the Metropolitan last night, in advance of this debate, and the Labour police to drop such a dynamic case. However, the situation position—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was never given a clean bill of health and outstanding buys into it; we might hear about it from the shadow issues remain on donations to parties. Minister—is like a secondary mandate, whereby the All we have to do is to look at the list of appointments institutions of the United Kingdom somehow decide to the House of Lords, such as that from last year. among themselves who should inhabit the second Chamber. Those recently ennobled made a total contribution of I am interested to hear more—the shadow Minister is £7 million to the three establishment Westminster parties. shaking his head, and we will hear from him exactly After cash for honours and something as dramatic as what the Labour party’s plan is—but that was suggested that police investigation, we might have thought that in the House of Lords when I watched a debate on it. I that place would be beyond approach, that the Lords am sure that the shadow Minister has his plan, but the would have cleaned up their act and that there would be second Chamber should be elected, as the hon. Member no suggestion, or even a whiff, of any type of abuse or for Edinburgh North and Leith suggested. There is no wrongdoing. Not a bit of it! It would seem that they substitute for democracy. We live in a democratic country, cannot change those ermine spots. Since then, we have culture and society, so of course our Houses have to be had peers banged up in jail for abuse of expenses, cash elected. for influence, cash for amendments and even some cash Things have to change; they cannot go on as they are. for honours. We have tried to reform and democratise the place, but The three biggest donors to the Liberal party—there every effort over the past 20 years has failed. This might are no Liberals here, so I am sorry if I am picking on be hard for its 850-odd Members—likely to be 1,000 in them, Mr Howarth—[Interruption.] Sorry, the Deputy the next Parliament—but it is now time to concede that Leader of the House is here. This is something he might the whole place is unreformable. It is time to rip the to pick up on. The three biggest donors to the Liberals, whole thing up and start again. That is the only way we who just so happen to provide two fifths of the party’s can get reform. donations, were given peerages by the Deputy Prime As I have said, I believe that we need a second Minister. That forced a peer who has now departed, Chamber. We are a large and complex democracy, with Lord Oakeshott, to concede that cash for honours was asymmetrical devolution to all parts of the United still very much alive and that, in his own words, Kingdom. I am open to any suggestion or plan for “my efforts to expose and end cash for peerages in all parties, progress, but I do not think that it is for me, an oiky Nat including our own, and help get the Lords elected have failed.” Back Bencher, to suggest to the great and the good of 269WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 270WH

[Pete Wishart] better, and I am sure that it is the same for the hard-working hon. Gentleman. The nonsense about having competition the Westminster establishment parties the sort of model for the main House is spurious, but if we clearly define for reform that should be adopted. That is not my the roles and functions of distinctive and separate Houses, job—I will leave it to the great minds we see assembled it would lay that issue to bed. on the Front Benches today to try to determine a way through. I am going to suggest several principles that I Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I commend the hon. believe have to underpin a brand-new institution as we Gentleman on securing this debate. When it comes to go forward. Lords reform, as he says, many Members of the House The first principle, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh of Commons profess themselves to be very precious North and Leith said, is that the revising Chamber must about the democratic integrity and authority of the be exclusively democratic. We can no longer go forward House. However, they do not seem to be as precious with an appointed institution, and we certainly cannot about that when it comes not just to allowing Bills to be have an institution with Members who are there only initiated in the Lords, but to allowing that the key because of their family. That cannot go on—it has to be amendments to Bills be passed there; even when there is based on democratic principles. a will for those amendments in the Commons, it consistently Let me tell hon. Members something embarrassing defers to the House of Lords to produce them. about this situation. I am a governor of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, a task that I take very Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. seriously because the foundation does fantastic work. I There is increasing use of the House of Lords as a go around the world to speak in emerging democracies, Chamber that puts through Government amendments. to encourage good governance and support multi-party He and I—and the hon. Member for Cities of London democracy as much as I possibly can. How can we give and Westminster (Mark Field)—sat through five days that message when we have the embarrassment of that of proceedings on the Counter-Terrorism and Security undemocratic institution down the road? How dare we Bill. I have always thought that I was elected by the try to suggest to developing nations—countries that are people of Perth and North Perthshire to scrutinise and struggling with democratic principles—that they emulate try to improve legislation, but we were told that that the United Kingdom? Are we asking them to get Lords was going to be done in the House of Lords, and the or jump around like Santa Claus in their red cloaks? Bill would come back to us amended. The use of the That embarrasses this nation. It is an embarrassment to House of Lords for the Government amendment of me and to anybody else who does that work on behalf Bills is inappropriate and has to end. If we properly of this country around the world. The first principle, align our two different Chambers and make sure they then, is that the revising Chamber must be absolutely are properly distinct, those sorts of issues would end. democratic. That should go without saying. My last principle is one I mentioned in response to The second principle is that its membership must be the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell): in proportion to the main Chamber. It is preposterous get shot of the deference and the 13th century institutions, that we have a second Chamber of such a size, with which are something like “Game of Thrones”. This is 847 Members, soon probably to be 1,000. Its size must the 21st century, for goodness’sake. We need our democracy be in proportion to the main Chamber. I suggest that it and its institutions to reflect the age that we live in. should be a quarter to a third of its current size—anything Forelock tugging, curtseying and having lords, ladies, between 200 and 250 Members should be sufficient for barons, dukes and earls is all nonsense—get rid of it. It the task required of it. is absolutely absurd and ridiculous. Let us have a modern functioning democratic Chamber that looks and feels That brings me to my third principle, which is also like the community and society that we serve. If we can important: the role of the new Chamber should be get that, we will be making real progress. clearly defined. My view is that that role should be exclusively scrutiny and supervision. I am unhappy Those are my principles for how we should establish a when I see Bills initiated in an undemocratic House. new and democratic Chamber to look after legislation. During this Parliament, we have considered quite a few As I said, it is not up to an oiky Back-Bench MP to try Bills that were initiated in the House of Lords and I am to suggest the model, although I am attracted to the not happy about that. I do not think it right—elected idea of using the European electoral regions as a basis Members should initiate legislation and design and for an election by proportional representation, as the shape it. Please, yes, let the other Chamber scrutinise hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith suggested, and have a look at it, tell us when we have it wrong and for the 200 or 250 Members we require. improve it if necessary, but the second Chamber should I have been on my feet for half an hour, so I will be supervisory. finish. We are coming up to an election, and every time One reason why House of Lords reform failed a we do, manifestos are stuffed full of promises to reform couple of years ago was the spurious fear of Conservative the Lords. We have had it all before. The Labour party Members who suggested that any elected Chamber is the great reformer this time around. I listened carefully would be a challenge to the supremacy of the main to the Leader of the Opposition setting out his stall in elected House—as if that would be a bad thing and that that respect a few short weeks ago. Do it this time. Just a little bit of a challenge would not actually help the do it! Labour had 13 years in power. Although it made elected Members of the House of Commons. Myself some progress when it got rid of the hereditaries, more and the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith is required. are Members for Scottish constituencies and share I must say to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West constituents with MSPs—we even share constituencies Derby that Labour has not been particularly good in its with list MSPs. That spurs me on to make sure I do relationship with the House of Lords: it was the Labour 271WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 272WH party that oversaw cash for honours. If he has concerns House of Lords. The case for the preservation of the about the House of Lords, particularly its bloated nature, so-called “ancient traditions” of the upper House—we the first thing that the hon. Gentleman might want to heard much on that, even from younger colleagues of do is stop putting people in it. Just stop it! There is no mine in the Conservative party, when the House debated need to make a bloated House even bigger. The the issue two years ago—was conclusively lost in 1999. Conservatives have different issues with and attitudes Once the vast bulk of the hereditaries—all bar 92—were towards the House of Lords, so they will probably removed, so too should all appointed Members have continue to put people in it, but the Labour party needs followed. Instead, as has been pointed out, we have a to stop stuffing that place full with more cronies and ludicrously bloated House of Lords. I am afraid that donors. That is the first thing that the Labour party the Lord Winstons of the House, who are often prayed should do demonstrate that this time it is serious about in aid of the House of Lords, are, with their great House of Lords reform. broad-based experience, assuredly the exception rather I hope that, in the next Parliament, we can at last to than the rule. make some real progress in ending this farce. It is a Over the past 15 years, the ranks of the House of circus. It is not fit for purpose. It is anachronistic. It is Lords have been swelled by hundreds of party hacks ridiculous, absurd and bizarre. We need to ensure that it and large-scale political donors, along with legislators can do a proper job of scrutinising the activities of this of very dubious quality who are often given the nod on House. Let us get rid of the whole shooting match and politically correct grounds. Indeed, I remain staggered start again; let us put in place something that is fit for at the sheer gutlessness of this place, the House of purpose and that the whole nation can be proud of. Commons, as we waved through the Parliamentary VotingSystem and Constituencies Act 2011. That legislation was promoted by the Deputy Prime Minister, who 10.1 am heralded the fatuous-to-the-point-of-being-disingenuous Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): saving to the public purse of £10 million a year, which The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete was ironic, given how the Liberal Democrats have not Wishart)—if he does not mind my calling him that, and only stuffed the House of Lords full of their own if it is not too deferential for his standards—will realise placemen but swelled the ranks of special advisers to all too well that, as a Conservative, my views on House untold numbers, both of which actions are entirely of Lords matters are not particularly orthodox. In fact, counter to the idea of making the cost of politics even before his time in the House, I was the only cheaper. Conservative to support the notion of a unicameral system—certainly unicameral compared with the appalling Mark Lazarowicz: It appears that we all agree—or at state of our current House of Lords. To be honest, as a least those of us present in the Chamber—on the need Conservative, I have no problem with a little forelock for democratic reform of the House of Lords. I remind tugging. I do not mind having dukes, earls, marquises, the hon. Gentleman that we did not all support the barons and the like. I just do not want them having any Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies place in the legislature. They can call themselves whatever Act 2011—it was opposed by the Opposition. they like, but the notion that they are able to vote On change in the House of Lords, although I understand through laws seems as anachronistic as he pointed out. the attraction of a radical transformation and move In discussing House of Lords reform, there is a great towards a federal Parliament, is there not a danger that opportunity for us to make the link with something I we end up spending so many decades trying to get the had thought the hon. Gentleman would raise: English correct solution that nothing ever happens? Is there a votes for English laws, and the disjointed devolution we case for moving to an elected House of Lords now, and currently have in the United Kingdom. I shall touch on then moving on to further changes? Otherwise, nothing that in my speech. I broadly share his view that the time will happen, not only in our lifetimes but in the lifetimes has come for comprehensive constitutional change in of people yet unborn. the United Kingdom. If it were to be carried out precisely and without partisan party political consideration, Mark Field: There is a danger of that. In many ways, I believe we would be capable of producing a solution much as I disapprove of what happened in 1999, from that will benefit Britain for decades to come. the point of view of the Blair Administration, they did My instinctive and immediate proposal would be for the right thing in taking the view that they should partly the creation of a new federal Parliament. It would be an sort out the hereditary issue. Of course, the risk of any elegant solution designed to resolve effectively the four reform is that a little flurry of it is followed by decades main domestic constitutional uncertainties of the United of nothing else being done—historically, that is what Kingdom, which have plagued the political arena during has happened with the upper House—with those who the past three decades and perhaps will continue to do wanted some reform saying, “Well, listen, we’ve been so in the years to come. With a federal UK Parliament able to achieve something.” and four elected national Parliaments, we could maintain It is depressing that the House of Lords has become the monarchy, strengthen the Union, and resolve the ever more a creature of the Executive, while House of questions raised by the disgracefully unreformed House Lords reform has ground to a halt. The truth behind of Lords, which we rightly debate today. I would also what the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire wish to give independent and equal Parliaments to said is that it is down to the numbers game. The Whips England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. can get business through the House of Commons, so we Like the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, have the utter discourtesy of Government amendments I am a democrat. Since my maiden speech in the House being tabled in the House of Lords simply because it is some 14 years ago, I have supported a fully elected known that the legislation will not get through without 273WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 274WH

[Mark Field] the Northern Ireland Assembly when the Democratic Unionist party and Sinn Fein worked together to put a amendments, which are rubber-stamped when it comes gun to the head of the British Government, to try to back to the Commons. Instinctively, that feels wrong. ensure there would be more money on the basis that Ultimately, it is in our hands in the House of Commons. they wanted a Barnett formula for Northern Ireland. If We are now only 16 or 17 weeks away from a general there is an indeterminate general election result, we may election, and if the result is indeterminate, we go down that route, with a bidding war on similar parliamentarians will have the opportunity to stand up, grounds in May and June. have our say and make a difference, particularly if we are in the realms of a minority Government. Mr Gregory Campbell: The hon. Gentleman said I must confess that, although I was happy to support political parties had put a gun to the head of the British the underlying principle of electing the House of Lords Government. I understand his use of the phrase, but on Second Reading and in the programme motion of while he might well say that about Sinn Fein, the the House of Lords Reform Bill, I believed ultimately Democratic Unionists were applying pressure. that, in many of its particulars, it was a shoddy, poorly drafted piece of legislation. As the hon. Member for Mark Field: I am sorry—the hon. Gentleman will Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) said, if recognise that I did not mean that literally. I recognise we try to work towards perfection, we will achieve very that, within the context of Northern Ireland and Ulster little. That is a great shame, because in many ways the politics, it might be seen as a loaded phrase. He is aware British constitution has hitherto been one of the great of what I was getting at. There was a sense that a lot of success stories of modern politics. It has kept the country political pressure was being brought to bear by the together—up to and beyond 18 September last year—united political Assembly of one of the parts of the United under a common Crown and common Parliament for Kingdom that has had a full constitutional change, more than 300 years. Not for us the coups, revolutions which would have affected my constituents to a large and counter-revolutions that have plagued much of the extent. European continent over that period. So successful has There are great dangers for the Conservatives in the British constitution been that we Britons have often promoting the prospect of English votes for English stopped thinking about it. laws. The UK constitution is full of anomalies. Attacking Until 15 or so years ago, no one lost much time Scottish MPs in that way comes across as partisan and worrying about constitutional niceties. We knew instinctively negative. Our mission should be to maintain and strengthen that, messy as it was, the British constitution worked the Union. It is all too easy for a negative-sounding well and worked for the whole of the British isles. The solution to the West Lothian question to be portrayed Blair Administration changed everything. They part- by our opponents— reformed the House of Lords by removing the independent hereditary element, but successive Governments since Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I am have created literally hundreds of new life peers. In listening carefully and with interest to the hon. Gentleman’s response to the demand of the people of Scotland and speech. The title of the debate is House of Lords Wales—a demand that I acknowledge the Conservatives reform, and he is talking about wider constitutional were perhaps too slow to understand, and certainly to questions and issues. Perhaps he could relate them back accept—devolved Parliaments and Assemblies in Scotland, to the reform of the House of Lords. I am sure he Wales and Northern Ireland were created. It requires would be happy to stay in order. little cynicism to see that many of those changes were designed for Labour’s political advantage, and that they Mark Field: That is very kind, Mr Howarth. I very have not necessarily been properly carried through elsewhere. much accept that. The point I was trying to make was That has created many problems, especially in England, that we need to look at House of Lords reform in the the neglected land in all those constitutional changes. context of many of the other constitutional reforms England is a nation proud and undivided, but many of that would be at the top of the in-tray for a Government, its people increasingly demand equal treatment with the because of the unbalanced constitutional situation. It other nations of the UK. Since last September’s Scottish seems to me that the English, and indeed the British as a referendum—lost, in case there is a doubt about it, by whole, like and respect the concept of fair play, and 10.6%—some Tory strategists feel that the time is ripe there is a groundswell of unease about the somewhat to play the English card. one-sided constitutional deal, which is linked to reform There is a deep and increasing disquiet among many of the House of Lords. As an MP for a seat in London, in England at the effects of devolution, and the most the capital of both England and the United Kingdom, I serious problems are the imbalances left by the somewhat think that the Conservative party should offer all the partisan settlement of the late 1990s. Those are easily British people together, whether English, Scottish, Welsh stated. MPs from Edinburgh and Cardiff can vote on or Irish, a new settlement that is demonstrably equitable health and education policies that affect my constituents for everyone. As I have said, that links to the question of and Manchester constituents, and those of the hon. the House of Lords. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), Since the expulsion of the great bulk of the hereditary but not on health and education policies affecting their peers some 16 years ago, I have in principle favoured the own constituents—but why? It does not seem just. option of a wholly or largely elected House of Lords. I Under the Barnett formula, residents of Edinburgh had recognise that such an outcome is unlikely to be within £1,300 more spent on their public services last year than the realms of practical politics soon, because the strongest my constituents did. Again, that seems less than equitable. opposition to an elected House of Lords comes from There was a disgraceful situation before Christmas in existing life peers from across the political spectrum. 275WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 276WH

Their support for any reform will be essential if we are 10.18 am to avoid the constitutional deadlock that we have been Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I recognise, as does beset by in the past. In addition, even if the principle of the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster election were established, there would remain the question (Mark Field), that in the context of the crying need for of the timing and process. Would it be first past the House of Lords reform, it is easy to caricature the post, or proportional representation, a system that other contribution made by all the Members of that Chamber. hon. Members have supported? Would there be fixed or I recognise from my time in Parliament the worth of the variable terms? The list of practical difficulties would work of some Members of the House of Lords. be almost endless. Nevertheless, that does not detract from the pressing The solution I propose is the creation of an entirely need for significant reform. new federal Parliament, with four full national Parliaments Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I do not necessarily in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with believe in a unicameral legislature at the level of a full all the existing powers of the House of Commons, and sovereign state. There was recently a proposal to abolish over them a federal United Kingdom Parliament, which the Senate of the Irish Republic, and I am among those would debate defence and foreign affairs, make treaties who believed in retaining the second Chamber. However, and administer a broader cohesion fund for the poorer the House of Lords needs significant reform, because it parts of the UK and broader strategic economic issues. works on a strange electoral college system and is far There would be no need for extra politicians, because from democratic and responsive. It is not the most the national Parliaments would send representatives to satisfactory way to carry out the proper role of a the UK Parliament, which would meet in the old House revising Chamber. of Lords Chamber, perhaps once or twice a week. That In introducing this useful debate, the hon. Member would mean abolishing the House of Lords, and moving for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) rightly to a unicameral system. That would work pretty well. It made a number of observations about the fact that has not proved a problem in Edinburgh or Cardiff in everybody says they are committed to House of Lords the past eight years. reform. For more than a century now, the law of the The proposal would cut the Gordian knot of House land has been committed to House of Lords reform. of Lords reform and provide an equitable structure that Every time there are significant proposals in that direction, respected national differences, while strengthening our everybody ends up putting their own versions of reform, ties as a nation of equals. It would remove the growing to show that they are on the side of reform; the situation sense of disgruntlement in England at the perception is almost engineered to be a penalty shootout in which that the Scots can play the system to benefit financially nobody actually scores. We just stay with what we from the devolution settlement that came into play already have, the only difference being that even more 15 years ago. It would also save the cost of the House of people are packed on to the Benches. Lords and the Scotland and Wales Offices and reduce That is true even in this Parliament, which saw the the total number of politicians. It is perhaps a radical House of Lords Reform Bill. We should remember that and bold solution for a Conservative MP to suggest, but that Bill was passed on Second Reading with a significant I believe it will be the only way to balance the British majority; it ended up being pulled not because there constitution, which has served us so well for so long. It was no support for it but because of a difficulty over a would say no to partisan changes and offer the British programme or timetable motion. people a fairer alternative if my party were to hold If people had been serious about reform, they could power after the next election. simply have come back with a different programme The debate is important and will continue. It is easy motion. If the Government really believed that the to be overly negative about the House of Lords. I Opposition were being cynical and were conspiring appreciate that the hon. Member for Perth and North with Tory rebel Back-Benchers on the programme motion, Perthshire comes from a somewhat different political the Deputy Prime Minister could have brought back tradition, which means that, for him, the issue has a another programme motion and built into it measures class war aspect. Even as a Conservative, when I watch and ample time to allow for specific consideration the Queen’s Speech, the ermine and the pomp and of the issues that Labour said were its main points of ceremony of the House of Lords do not fill me with concern. great joy. The Government could have met the obstacle full on. That would have done not only justice to the clear Although I believe we should adopt a unicameral demand that exists for House of Lords reform but a lot system and abolish the House of Lords, I should point of good for the credibility of the Commons Chamber. out that a significant number of Lords make a big contribution. The composition of the House, particularly Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, recently, has not been terribly satisfactory, but many because he reminds us of the period when we last peers have great expertise and are diligent in their work. looked at this issue. In fact, the problem was more than They probably earn considerably less in the hours they that—there was actually a spat between both partners spend on House of Lords business than they do in their in the coalition, which ensured that the Bill fell. Why other activities. We should recognise that, but like the should an issue as important as House of Lords reform hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, I feel depend on the two partners in government not falling the time is ripe for constitutional change, to put things out with each other over a timetable motion? on a fair footing, equitable for all our people. I very much want to link House of Lords reform to general Mark Durkan: I fully accept what the hon. Gentleman devolution reform, which is at the forefront of the says; of course, that “spat”, as he calls it, related to the Government’s mind. parallel or concurrent legislation that had been produced 277WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 278WH

[Mark Durkan] challenges and the difficulties of getting some amendments through or allowing them through at the hands of the about the voting system and constituencies. That legislation rebels and to saying, “Well, it’s easier if we come up turned out to be a case of premature miscalculation on with a recooked version of those amendments in the the part of the Liberal Democrats. They wanted a House of Lords.” Second Reading debate by the time of their first party The situation was the same in the last Parliament. conference in government and they wanted the Bill Then, although the Labour Government did not face passed by the time of their second such conference—but, those difficulties, again and again, it seemed to be the of course, the linked issues in and around Lords reform automatic convention that if they accepted that the case ended up meeting difficulty. Then, because of some for an amendment had been made in the Commons, the other issues to do with the constituency changes, it was due place for it to be made was not the Commons itself deemed easier to pull the House of Lords Reform Bill in but the Lords. a sort of fit of pique or a broad political huff than it was properly to pursue Lords reform, which we all say Significantly, among the few amendments that were we support. actually made to Government Bills in the Commons in the last Parliament were amendments to the Parliamentary As you know, Mr Howarth, I come to this debate as a Standards Act 2009. The right hon. and learned Member constitutional Irish nationalist. I have already said that for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) managed to get an amendment I believe in having a second Chamber in the context of made by a majority of just three votes. It was also in the the Irish constitution. One factor that I have always context of the 2009 Act that I got an amendment believed the Seanad Eireann was able to accommodate, directly accepted by the Government for the only time. although it was not allowed to accommodate it as well The amendment inserted a reference to Her Majesty’s as it should have done, is the position and the outlook Customs and Revenue into the Bill. Any reference to of those members of the Irish nation who do not live HMRC had been completely omitted before that, even within the 26 counties of the Irish Republic, not least though we could all consider the tax dimensions of the those in Northern Ireland. Similarly, in the context of expenses scandal. The Government accepted the principle considering proposals about how to take forward a of one amendment but said that they would work up a debate on a united Ireland after the Good Friday better version of it in the Lords. However, they fully agreement—with its principles and promises, as ratified accepted another amendment. in a solemn act of articulated self-determination by the Irish people, north and south—my party has made it That situation is a rarity, and it is a scandal that in an clear that in the event of a referendum in Northern elected legislative Chamber, where our main job is meant Ireland ever bringing about a united Ireland, we would to be to act as legislators and to provide due elective equally see the case for a reformed second Chamber consideration, we are so derelict in our duty in relation here in the British Parliament accommodating and to making amendments. That is why the House of representing people from Northern Ireland who believed Lords is credited with making an exaggerated number that they were part of the body politic of the British of amendments and why its status as a revising Chamber nation and who wanted to continue to be identified here is inflated by comparison with the dereliction of duty in as well. So, if the test in politics is, “Do unto others as the Commons. you would have them do unto you,” we meet that test. Changing that situation would lead to a challenge to That is one of the reasons why, as Irish nationalists, we the Whips system and, indeed, to Members of the are interested in this issue. Commons themselves. Let us remember that although it is easy to caricature Members of the House of Lords I am not particularly obsessed with the feng shui of in the way that the hon. Member for Perth and North arranging the various bits of furniture of the British Perthshire did in introducing this debate, reform of the constitution, even though I find myself shanghaied as a House of Lords would lead to a significant change in member of the Political and Constitutional Reform the role and work load of the Commons Chamber, too, Committee into considering it. However, as an Irish and of individual MPs. Whether or not we end up with nationalist with my own outlook and hopes, I have a any significant mechanism for recall or any other such legitimate and valid interest in House of Lords reform reform, the fact is that we—as individual Members of in terms of a future role for a reformed second Chamber that primary elected Chamber—will need to take here in Parliament. responsibility. It would not take a conspiracy theorist to As I said in an intervention on the hon. Member for suggest that some of the reluctance about House of Perth and North Perthshire one of the things that Lords reform that exists could be because people are frustrates me as a Member of the House of Commons not prepared to adjust to the changes and the new is the fact that whenever voting reform of the House of requirements that would then extend to them in the Commons is proposed, time and again, many hon. elected Chamber. Members—from all parties—step up to say that they are opposed to particular types of voting reform and Mark Field: The hon. Gentleman has demolished the that they are also opposed to electing a House of Lords, argument that is made—sadly, by some of my colleagues because they feel that such an elected second Chamber on the Conservative Benches—about this idea of the would somehow undermine the elected authority of the primacy of the House of Commons somehow being House of Commons. threatened by Lords reform. May I also say that, like Yet, at the same time, those Members are consistently me, the Minister who is here today is a London MP? We prepared to engage in a dereliction of the legislative proudly represent our own constituencies, but of course duty of the House of Commons by constantly deferring London also has eight or nine Members of the European to the House of Lords when it comes to reforms. In this Parliament, an elected Mayor, members of the Greater Parliament, that might be related to possible whipping London Assembly and 11 top-up members of the GLA, 279WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 280WH and indeed there are also about 30 councillors in our Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): I shall call Jim patch. However, because the responsibilities of all those Shannon, but before he starts, I remind him that I will offices are well-defined, there is no sense of our being be calling the two Front Benchers from 10.40 am. undermined by them, and the same would apply to the Commons and the Lords if the House of Lords was to continue. 10.32 am Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you for Mark Durkan: I fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s giving me the chance to speak, Mr Howarth. I am very point. However, in circumstances where there is a moving conscious of the time, so I will try to be succinct in my agenda in relation to devolution, including demands for comments. I thank the hon. Member for Perth and different forms of downloadable devolution for England, North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) for setting the scene, whether in the metropolitan cities or in other local and I apologise for not being here at the beginning of government conglomerations, I recognise that there needs his comments. I had to make a contribution at a Committee to be some sort of parliamentary or representative meeting before I came down to this debate. charter that makes it easier for the voter to understand I am pleased to have the opportunity to contribute in which of the different elected offices is responsible for the short time available. House of Lords reform has which issue. At times, there is quite a blur, and in the divided many of us—not just MPs, but members of the context of Northern Ireland, there ends up being confusion general public. Outside Parliament, it is a topic for about the swinging doors between devolution and the debate. The reform of the House of Lords is not a Westminster Parliament. recent matter, nor is it a 21st century matter. It dates My final point relates to appointments to the House back to the Parliament Act 1911, which was the last of Lords. My party has never made such an appointment; serious reform of the Lords. The importance of the we have always refused to do so, and that has included debate cannot be ignored. The matter will have to be people who have served honourably in this House, such dealt with at some time—perhaps not here in Westminster as John Hume and Seamus Mallon. When Tony Blair Hall today, but certainly in the next Parliament. We was Prime Minister, he and his advisers and coterie look forward to that. made strong suggestions to me that we should appoint All Members who have spoken, and who will speak, people to the House of Lords. They were willing to are aware of the main issue, which is the immensity of appoint people and embarrassed by the fact that they the numbers in the House of Lords and their workability. were appointing more and more Unionists to the House The draft Bill of 2011 referred to 300 Members of the of Lords and nobody was there to represent the dimensions House of Lords, which puts things into perspective, as and outlook of the Social Democratic and Labour currently there are 900 Members. Although parties are party. divided, even among themselves, it would seem that if I pointed out why we do not appoint people to the and when Lords reform comes up again—I believe it House of Lords: we do not believe, as nationalists, that will—a reduction in numbers will be agreed fairly quickly. we are going to put the ermine into self-determination That is the key message. The figures could match the by taking seats in the House of Lords. I was told, number of Commons Members, although others will “These would be working peers. Don’t see it as part of suggest different figures. the honours system; they would be working peers,” and Another issue that has been raised is whether to I suggested, “Well, if you want someone who would completely abolish hereditary peers, whether to reduce reflect an SDLP perspective, would be in strong sympathy them or whether to leave them as they are. I confess with them and would be a working peer, you could that, although reducing them is a possibility, I am one always appoint somebody like Kevin McNamara, but for tradition. The hon. Member for Cities of London he would probably be too much of a working peer for and Westminster (Mark Field) referred to the tradition your taste,” to which I got a firm nod and a fair smile. of the House. Whenever visitors come here, they When I was leader of my party, I was approached acknowledge the tradition of the House and how it with offers of money to nominate people to the House works. I adhere to and love that tradition, as do my of Lords. That happened on more than one occasion. constituents, and it is important that there is some At one point, I was approached—not by the person reflection of that tradition in the balance of the House who wanted to be appointed, but by somebody else who of Lords, possibly including hereditaries. Tradition is seemed to speaking on their behalf and certainly in that extremely important. We want to maintain our great person’s interest—with an offer of £50,000 to change institutions, and although it is important to modernise, my position and the party’s position on the House of it is important not to forget where we come from. It is Lords. Of course, I refused, but I noted with interest important to give institutions and their traditions their that that person subsequently found a way on to the place. Benches of the House of Lords. I do not know whether Once a month we have a holy communion in any money changed hands or anything else. I have no St Margaret’s church, as we did this morning. It is an evidence of that; I can simply give witness. That, again, opportunity for MPs and peers to come together for a is what adds to my sense of scandal over the fact that we time of reflection before we start the day’s business. have failed to deliver proper House of Lords reform, Today, our speaker was what is referred to as one of the but I recognise that we do not have the luxury of simply Lords Spiritual—one of the Members from the Church pointing the finger at the inadequacies of the House of of England. His contribution, qualities, experiences Lords. The House of Commons must bear some and knowledge enable debates in the House of Lords responsibility and would be significantly challenged to be fuller, more detailed and more informational. by reform. When it comes to making policy and legislating, it is so 281WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 282WH

[Jim Shannon] debate in Westminster Hall and I thank the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) for giving important to have that. With that in mind, I am conscious us this chance. We have had a good debate on House of of the role and the position of those who are placed in Lords reform. Although there is a need for fundamental the House of Lords as Lords Spiritual. change—I will reaffirm Labour’s support for fundamental Although we might want to consider some elected change—I think all hon. Members acknowledge the representatives for the upper Chamber, either by very hard work of many Members of the other place in appointment or election, we do not want to end up with scrutinising and seeking to improve legislation. the Lords having more power or control than the Commons. I will start by addressing what the hon. Member for That has been debated over the years and concerns Perth and North Perthshire set out as his principles for many. It simply would not work out and would stop the reform, because he set them out very well. They were, Government from working efficiently. Of course, while first, that the second Chamber should be democratic; the Lords considers legislation, it might be a good idea secondly, that it should be smaller than it is now, but to elect a number of peers, although what that number also smaller than the House of Commons; and, thirdly, would be is something for another debate. that there should be a clear definition of the second Let me give an example of legislation from my short Chamber’s role as scrutinising and improving legislation. time here as the hon. Member for Strangford. I tabled That is very important. I have never accepted the argument an amendment to the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) that the primacy of the House of Commons is somehow Act 2014 in the House of Commons. The Opposition automatically challenged by having a more legitimate and the Democratic Unionist party supported it. We and democratic second Chamber. Definition is a way of pressed it to a Division but lost by about 52 votes. addressing that problem. As an aside, alongside seeking However, Opposition Members, including those in the to make changes in the House of Lords, we need to Labour party and others, spoke eloquently on the recognise that the House of Commons needs to get its amendment’s behalf. That put a marker down. My act together when it comes to the scrutiny and improvement colleagues in the House of Lords took up the cudgels, of legislation. The Government need to get their act so to speak, and pursued amendments there. The reform together by presenting to the House of Commons legislation package came back to the House of Commons and the that does not require, when it goes to the other place, Minister accepted it. We should not take away the role the level of amendment that we have seen both in this that the House of Lords can play in shaping legislation. Parliament and under the Labour Government. If the Bill had gone through the Commons as it originally was, that is what we would have had. The Minister at Fourthly, as the hon. Gentleman said, we need to get that time indicated that she was not prepared to accept shot of the deference. That, crucially, reminds us of the the amendment, but the House of Lords changed it. importance of completing the work to remove the remaining The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who I hereditary peers. I would add a fifth principle, which the have the utmost respect for, mentioned the changes that hon. Gentleman accepted in his speech and which most would happen from a nationalist point of view and that hon. Members, apart from the hon. Member for Cities he would have to prepare for. For the record, I can say of London and Westminster (Mark Field), have to him that he does not have to worry about that, acknowledged, which is that there should be a second because a national opinion poll last year indicated that Chamber. Some hon. Members, including in my party, only 21% of nationalists wanted a united Ireland. The favour a unicameral solution. It is very important that issue of a united Ireland is a dream rather than a we have checks and balances in our system; having a realisation. We can cast our minds back to the referendum second Chamber that can provide scrutiny and improvement as well. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire of legislation is very important. will know that not every Scottish nationalist voted in This is not a new issue. It has been around for more favour in the referendum. We should consider that. than 100 years, as has been acknowledged, and it has We want to ensure that the general public feel that been debated, certainly during the two stints that I have they can put their trust in Government, and that includes had in this place, at great length. When I was elected in being accountable. Although measures have been put in 1997, the Labour party ran on a programme of very place in recent years to ensure that MPs are held accountable dramatic constitutional change, as the hon. Member for for their actions, we must let the public know that their Cities of London and Westminster said, and I am very peers are also accountable. That is why having a mixture proud of what we did on devolution, freedom of of hereditary, elected and appointed peers is important. information and the Human Rights Act 1998. We started As I have said, it would have to be balanced in a way the job of House of Lords reform with the 1999 legislation, that does not undermine the work of the Commons, and it is interesting to look at the experience of 1999 because the Commons has to have pre-eminence over through to now, because it demonstrates some of the the House of Lords. We have seen legislative change pitfalls of trying to reform the House of Lords. that was started in the House of Commons, perfected by the House of Lords, and then endorsed by the House The original legislation in 1999 was to remove all the of Commons. That is what we are about—we are about hereditary peers, and then in effect a deal was done balance. This debate has been useful, and I thank the between the then Government and the Conservatives in hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire for giving the House of Lords—not the Conservatives in the hon. Members the chance to contribute. House of Commons—to retain 92 hereditary peers. In one way, it was a dramatic reform, because the number 10.39 am of hereditary peers was reduced very significantly, but Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): even so a compromise was accepted that the 92 would It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, remain. As the hon. Member for Perth and North Mr Howarth. I welcome the opportunity to have this Perthshire said, we have the absurdity of the only elected 283WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 284WH

Members of the other place being the hereditary peers career in London and the south-east. That slightly who are elected in the event of an hereditary peer skews the figures, but the hon. Gentleman makes a leaving the other place through either death or retirement. fair point. The aim was always to have a second stage. I served Stephen Twigg: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that for a year, between 2001 and 2002, as Deputy Leader of point. The opportunity of a democratic second Chamber the House of Commons. Robin Cook was the Leader of is clearly to have one that has fair and proportional the House and was determined to see fundamental representation from all parts of the country. Obviously, reform, both in modernising the House of Commons that would include London, but also Scotland, Wales, and in reforming the House of Lords. Colleagues may Northern Ireland and the regions of England. recall that we had a series of votes on reform of the Let me finish by saying something about how best we other place. I cannot remember the exact order, but we can take this forward. Clearly, there are long-standing voted on its being 100% elected, 0% elected, 80% elected, plans for reform, which were reflected in the legislation 20% elected—right the way through—and every single presented earlier in this Parliament, but there is a broader proposal was defeated. That reminds us that these things set of challenges. After the Scottish referendum, there are not easy, that there is a range of views, and that we are questions about England, and questions about sometimes allow the perfect to be the enemy of the devolution to city regions, counties and local communities. good. Personally, I voted for a 100% elected Chamber, There is sense in looking at these issues in the round, but I also voted for one that was 80% elected. Some which is why a number of the democracy and citizens were purists and were not prepared to vote for anything organisations have argued for some time that we should less than 100% elected. have a UK constitutional convention to address them. We have had further votes since in which there has Labour and other parties support that. The broader the been a clear majority in the House of Commons for an support we can build for it, the better. It needs to elected second Chamber. Under the former Prime Minister, happen quickly. We need to start the work now. I my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and welcome the discussions that are already happening, Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the House of Commons but the right way to reform Parliament, including reforms voted for both 100% and 80% elected. As we have been relating to legislation that affects only England or England reminded, the Bill in this Parliament received a very and Wales, and to reform the second Chamber, is through clear majority on Second Reading. We can therefore say a constitutional convention that is led by citizens, that that the will of the House of Commons is for a democratic has a majority of members of the public on it, that second Chamber. The principles set out today are absolutely reports back quickly after deliberation and whose proposals the right ones. are then considered in this place. If we can get such a constitutional convention set up this year, there is an How do we take things from here? It is right to opportunity to get this right and get a blueprint that remind ourselves that a general election is coming up creates a truly democratic second Chamber—a senate and there is an opportunity in manifestos for commitments of the nations and regions—and we can finally deal to be made. It is very important to make those with an issue that has been in contention for well over a commitments, but we need to learn the lessons from century. past failings. There are two lessons. First, as is the case with any constitutional reform, the greater cross-party To finish where I started, I welcome the fact that the consensus we can forge, the better. People in all political hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire has given parties will have different views, so the more cross-party us the opportunity this morning to address this very consensus, the better. Secondly—I say this as a long- important issue. We must not allow it to fall off the standing reformer—we have not tended to engage citizens. political agenda. The more we can engage citizens in all parts of the 10.48 am country in proposals for reform, the better. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of The Labour party’s position is that we want a democratic the House of Commons (Tom Brake): It is a pleasure to second Chamber. We have talked about forging a senate serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I congratulate of the nations and regions that can be truly representative. the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire rightly Wishart) on securing this debate on a familiar but none reminded us of the patronage in the appointments the less very important subject. system and of the injustice of hereditary peerages. The third element that is worth emphasising is that there is The Government believe that the second Chamber no geographic representation in the other place. Its should be more representative of the British people. In Members are heavily drawn from people who are from a modern democracy, it is important that those who London and the south-east of England—just over half pass legislation should be chosen by those to whom it of peers are from London or the south-east of England. applies. As hon. Members know, in 2012 the Government The region that I now represent in Parliament, the introduced the House of Lords Reform Bill, in line with north-west, has just 6% of those who are in the other commitments in the Conservative and Liberal Democrat place. 2010 election manifestos and the coalition’s programme for government. That Bill would have made provision for a reformed House of 450 Members, 80% of whom Mark Field: I speak as a London Member and someone would have been elected and 20% appointed by an who has spent all his adult life in London. It is probably independent statutory appointments commission, plus fair to say that many but not all of those—I accept that ministerial Members and 12 Church of England bishops. there is an imbalance—who are notionally from London The proposal was a compromise. Personally, I would and the south-east originated in other parts of the have preferred a 100% elected Chamber, but that is not United Kingdom, but have spent much of their professional the point that we reached. The House voted by a 285WH House of Lords Reform14 JANUARY 2015 House of Lords Reform 286WH

[Tom Brake] The hon. Gentleman said that only one peer had chosen to retire, but my understanding is that under the majority of 338 for that Bill to receive a Second Reading—a House of Lords Reform Act 2014, five have chosen to clear endorsement of the principle of reforming the retire. Before that, three peers retired under a voluntary House of Lords. However, as Members will recall, the retirement system. Earlier still—I am sure we agree that Bill had to be withdrawn following the lack of agreement we would not particularly want to trumpet this—five over a programme motion that might have led to an peers retired because of the rules that required those unacceptable amount of time being devoted to debate who were not domiciled in the UK for tax purposes to on the changes. retire. There have been some genuine retirements in More recently, some minor changes have been made addition to the one that he mentioned. to the House of Lords as a result of the Bill promoted The hon. Gentleman referred, understandably, to the by Lord Steel, which became the House of Lords Reform question of donors who have subsequently become Act 2014 and made three changes to the terms of peers. To return to my comment about his party being membership of the House of Lords. First, Members of an establishment party, I am sure that the same degree the House of Lords can now formally and permanently of scrutiny is applied, for instance, to the relationship retire; previously, a peer could effectively retire only by between the leader of the SNP and Brian Souter, and to applying for leave of absence. Secondly, a peer who the donations that the party receives through that route. receives a custodial sentence of more than 12 months Indeed, I hope that the relationship, and the two dozen will now automatically cease to be a Member of the meetings that took place, between Alex Salmond and House of Lords, in line with the provision for Members Rupert Murdoch received the same degree of scrutiny of the House of Commons. Finally, a peer who does as do donors here. not attend during a Session will now cease to be a I commend the hon. Gentleman on his work for the Member of the House of Lords. Westminster Foundation for Democracy—something Those were sensible housekeeping provisions on which that I have done in the past—which is an essential there was a cross-party consensus, which is why it was organisation that provides support to parties outside possible to introduce them. Clearly, however, they are the UK. I agree that it is difficult for him as a trustee, as not a substitute for real and genuine reform of the it was for me, to explain to other countries around the Lords. The Government remain committed to the principle world why we have the House of Lords. I understand of comprehensive and democratic reform of the House the difficult position in which that puts him. of Lords even though it has not been possible to bring I agree with all the key principles that the hon. forward legislation on the matter during this Parliament. Gentleman set out. However, I understood him to say that he did not want the House of Lords to initiate any legislation. If that is his position, I hope that he has Mark Field: I, too, deeply regret the lack of progress. considered the fact that such a system would present I was among the majority of 338 on Second Reading of some significant logistical issues for the House of Commons the 2012 reform Bill. Given that such reform is an legislative programme. If all legislation was required to ongoing commitment of the coalition Government, can start in the House of Commons, either there would the Minister explain why the Government have continued have to be much less legislation or Members of Parliament to appoint more Members of the House of Lords on would have to work much longer on the legislative the old basis since that defeat? Surely a strong signal of programme and spend a lot less time in their constituencies. the Government’s intention would have been to put an absolute embargo on any further appointments to the We all agree with the hon. Gentleman that we want a House of Lords. Why has that not happened? modern, democratic Chamber. Slightly lacking in his speech was the bit in between—the route map that will take us from our concerns about the present system to Tom Brake: That is not a decision that the Government the creation of a modern, democratic Chamber. That is took. It has not been possible to undertake the substantial the difficulty that we all face. The solution proposed by reform that we wanted, so the Government have continued my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and to appoint peers to ensure that the balance of peers and Westminster (Mark Field) was a federal UK Parliament the parties that they represent is, broadly speaking, with four national Parliaments. That has the advantage representative of that in the House of Commons. of being a straightforward solution, but there are significant I would like to pick up on some points that hon. risks associated with it. For instance, the Scottish Members have made. The hon. Member for Perth and Government has led to more centralisation in Scotland, North Perthshire will be reassured to hear that he can and I am concerned that the simple solution of an call the other place the House of Lords. That is a minor English Parliament might suck powers upwards into change towards less deference, or at least greater clarity. such a Parliament, which is the exact opposite of what I want to achieve. I get frustrated when hon. Members refer, as the hon. Gentleman did, to other major parties as “establishment” Stephen Twigg indicated assent. parties. The Scottish National party, which he represents, is very much an establishment party in Scotland; I am Tom Brake: I believe that the hon. Member for Liverpool, sure that some of his criticisms of the major parties West Derby (Stephen Twigg) agrees. I would like to see here could be turned around and directed at him and his genuine devolution to communities. I agree with my hon. party in Scotland. I thank him for highlighting in his Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster tweets what he was going to say in today’s debate. That that English votes for English laws, or proportional gave us advance notice. Readers of Hansard will be able English votes for English laws, must move hand in to judge for themselves whether the debate has been a hand with devolution. The knock-on effect on House good one, as he predicted it would be. of Lords reform must also be taken into account. 287WH House of Lords Reform 14 JANUARY 2015 288WH

My hon. Friend had a pop at the Liberal Democrats National Statistics for swelling the number of special advisers. On the cost of politics, I am sure he is aware that the number of ministerial limos is down. Ministers’ pay has been cut 10.59 am by 5%. Some Ministers—I do not know whether this Sir Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): We move from was the case when the hon. Member for Liverpool, West a debate on the House of Lords to a matter of critical Derby was Deputy Leader of the House—have unpaid importance in the coming general election to elect Members ministerial roles. Successful attempts have been made to to the elected House of our Parliament. We have already cut the cost of politics. started the longest general election campaign in the On the West Lothian question, we all agree that UK’s history, which is the consequence, perhaps unintended, something has to be done, but the question is what is of a decision earlier in this Parliament to agree to deliverable. There was agreement in party manifestos fixed-term Parliaments. When voters cast their votes, on the need for House of Lords reform, but when it they will make judgments on our respective parties, our came to doing it, it was not possible to get people to leaders, the constituency candidates and the issues during agree because although some, like me, were willing to the campaign. They will make those decisions based on make compromises, others were not. the information available to them at the time. In the The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said that interests of transparency, accountability and democracy, he believed the solution to the House of Lords question it is important for the information upon which people would have been for the Deputy Prime Minister to press make decisions to be accurate. Rex Stout, a US crime a different programme motion. I assure him that that writer, wrote: sort of thing was considered at the time; if it had been “There are two kinds of statistics, the kind you look up and the the solution, it would have been done. I hope that his kind you make up.” karma does not suffer too much from being shanghaied During the general election campaign, it is important by the feng shui of rearranging our constitutional that we have more of the former and less of the latter. settlement. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim The guardian of the integrity and trustworthiness of Shannon), who is not in his place, highlighted the need official statistics is the UK Statistics Authority, which to reduce the number of people in the second Chamber, was set up in 2008 as a result of the Statistics and which is something that we all support. Registration Service Act 2007, introduced by the Labour This has been an interesting and instructive debate, Government to remove political—that is, ministerial— which has engaged questions that go to the heart of our control of national statistics, the Office for National constitution. I am sure that the next Government will Statistics and its officials. I had a meeting with Sir Andrew return to the matter alongside other key constitutional Dilnot, the chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, in questions. I hope—as does, I believe, the majority of the October 2014, and he told me that Labour should claim House—that a degree of consensus sufficient to support credit for the creation of an independent statistics authority, real reform will, at last, be forthcoming. and we do. The UK was slow off the mark compared with other countries. Statistics Norway was established as an independent entity as far back as 1876, and it uses its independence to publish a dossier of key figures for circulation to the public before each Norwegian general election. The UK Statistics Authority did a similar independent and impartial job of publishing key statistics before the Scottish referendum. I hope that it will use its independence to do so again before the general election. The public have a right to know how much the national debt, for example, has risen under the coalition Government; how much the deficit, the rate at which the national debt increases, has fallen; and by how much the Government have failed to meet their promise to eliminate the deficit by the end of the Parliament. The public have a right to know the waiting times for hospital treatment compared with under previous Governments. They have a right to know the crime rate and our trade and investment figures. Immigration will be a big issue in the election, and we want reliable figures upon which the public can make a judgment about the relative merits of the different parties’ policies on immigration. It might be sensible to have figures about the cost to the UK of membership of the European Union or statistics on the number of people who have lost access to legal aid. Those will all be issues in the election, and I hope people will be able to make judgments based on good facts. I would like to see the UK Statistics Authority publish figures on such matters, but that is for the authority to determine, not for us as politicians. During 289WH National Statistics14 JANUARY 2015 National Statistics 290WH

[Sir Hugh Bayley] and coastal erosion management in future. I have asked the Authority’s Head of Assessment to explore this matter further the campaign, I would like the UK Statistics Authority with the Department.” to be able to respond quickly with a public statement Subsequently, there was a long correspondence between offering clarification if there appears to be controversy me, the UK Statistics Authority, the former Secretary of between the parties on the facts. State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the The independence of the UK Statistics Authority, the Chair of the Public Administration Committee, and result of a Labour Act, was a great step forward, but it there were meetings with officials and Ministers. On did not go far enough. The authority’s independence 17 July, I received a letter from the former Secretary of and well-regarded code of practice for official statistics State confirming that figures on flooding would apply only to official statistics, not to all statistics “become an official statistic, subject to the Standards in the Code published by the Government. On the Second Reading of Practice”. of the Statistics and Registration Service Bill in 2007, But it was his decision, not the decision of the UK which I attended, the right hon. Member for Chipping Statistics Authority, to make the change, although it Barnet (Mrs Villiers), who was the Conservative was proposed by the Statistics Authority. spokesperson, pointed out that only 12% of statistics published by the Home Office were designated as official The example about spending on flood defences is not statistics and would therefore become controllable by isolated. On 7 October last year, the Statistics Authority an independent statistics authority. She said: criticised figures that the Minister for Security and Immigration cited when he claimed that passport “The Bill leaves intact the two-tier system between National applications were at a 12-year high. Statistics and other official figures… the whole two-tier division should be abolished.”—[Official Report, 8 January 2007; Vol. 455, On 21 February last year, Sir Andrew Dilnot wrote to c. 44-45.] my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila The problem, which she rightly identified, is that the Gilmore) to criticise the use by the Department for decision on which figures to designate and therefore Work and Pensions of unpublished management quality control as official statistics is taken by Ministers, information on the performance of the Work programme. not by the independent statistics authority. She cited “Management information”is jargon used by Departments Lord Moser, the towering figure of British statistics and to describe the statistics that they produce themselves, a former national statistician, who described the decision rather than those produced as official statistics by the to allow Ministers, rather than the statistics authority, UK Statistics Authority. to determine which statistics are official statistics as On 26 April 2013, Sir Andrew Dilnot wrote to my “‘a very basic flaw’ to have a category of statistics that are ‘left hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Michael totally’ in Ministers’ hands. He said that it was a formula for lack Dugher), making a similar criticism of Cabinet Office of trust”. claims about the percentage of Government procurement going to small and medium-sized enterprises. Nevertheless, the flaw identified by the Conservative spokesperson remained in the 2007 Act. On 25 January 2012, the chair of the UK Statistics Authority wrote to the Secretary of State for Work and I came up against that flaw on 6 January 2014, when Pensions to criticise the figures that he had published the then Secretary of State for Environment, Food and on the nationality of benefits claimants and proposed Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire that in the future such figures should be properly quality- (Mr Paterson), claimed in the House that more money controlled by the authority as official statistics before was being spent “than ever before” on flood defences. I publication, although the Secretary of State refused took that claim to the statisticians in the Library because that request. it was directly contradicted by figures that I had recently received from the Department for Environment, Food The Statistics Authority has taken the Mayor of and Rural Affairs in answer to a parliamentary question. London to task many times for his use of figures The statisticians concluded: relating to transport, juvenile offending, reoffending, crime and so on. “Departmental spending on flood defences in 2011-15 will be lower than it was in 2007-11 in both nominal and real terms.” Last week, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester Indeed, the figures showed that spending would be South (Jonathan Ashworth) received a reply to a freedom £247 million lower. of information request asking how many times since May 2010 the UK Statistics Authority has investigated As a consequence of the advice that I received from complaints about the misuse of statistics by Ministers the Library, I wrote to ask the views of the UK Statistics or officials in their Departments. He was told that it has Authority, and it agreed with the Library’s conclusion happened on 312 occasions since the general election, that flood defence spending had indeed fallen, not or more than once a week. In 103 cases—almost once a increased. The chair of the UK Statistics Authority, fortnight—it resulted in a public statement by the authority, Sir Andrew Dilnot, confirmed that to me in a letter and usually in the form of a publication of correspondence, made—this is a longish quote, but I will read it because as happened in the case that I cited about flood protection it goes to the heart of the issue—a further comment: expenditure. “Defra does not publish figures on flood defence spending as Clearly, the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 official statistics. There is therefore no obligation for Defra to must be amended to give the UK Statistics Authority, comply with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics in relation to these figures. However, given the salience of these figures and rather than Ministers, the right to determine which the public interest in them, it is my view that it would…serve the Government figures should be designated as official public good if Defra were to consider publishing official statistics statistics and therefore subject to the Statistics Authority’s on expenditure by the relevant organisations on aspects of flooding rigorous code of practice. 291WH National Statistics14 JANUARY 2015 National Statistics 292WH

The Conservative party supported that proposal on Public Accounts Committee—a special Select Committee, the Second Reading of the Statistics and Registration chaired by a Member of the Opposition, as is the Public Service Bill, which set up the Statistics Authority, as did Accounts Committee. the Liberal Democrat spokesman, the right hon. Member I am coming to the end of my time in this House; I for Twickenham (Vince Cable), who also called for the will not be standing for re-election. I have had an end of pre-release to Ministers of statistics before they interest in statistics all my life. I studied them as part of are published to the general public. He has been taken my degree and I worked for a number of years as a to task by the Statistics Authority since he became research fellow in health economics at York university Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and created statistics professionally. It is important for for failing to do what he proposed in opposition. We all public trust in the Government and parties that the understand that it is easier to say the right thing in figures the Government produce are honest, reliable opposition than to do the right thing in government. and trustworthy. We took a big step forward when we The proposal that the Authority, rather than Ministers, created the UK Statistics Authority as an independent should determine which statistics are official had tri-party Department that is not under ministerial control, but support. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead we have not gone the whole way. I hope that we can (Mr Field) was the first to demand on Second Reading establish a cross-party consensus before the general that that should happen. He said: election to make the necessary change to create a truly “Would not the move to re-establish public confidence in independent guardian of the figures that the Government statistics be advanced if the commission itself…could decide publish. which series of data it published?”—[Official Report, 8 January 2007; Vol. 455, c. 24-25.] 11.18 am I call on the Minister to say at the very least that he will discuss with his party leader and party whether that The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson): I commitment should be included in the Conservative congratulate the hon. Member for York Central (Sir Hugh manifesto for the next election. I will raise the same Bayley) on securing this important debate. I was sorry thing with my party leader and write to the Liberal to hear the bombshell that he dropped at the end of his Democrat party leader. We should establish a cross-party speech. I was not aware that he will be standing down at consensus before the election to ensure that whoever is the May election. I pay tribute to him for his work elected will make the necessary reform to confirm the highlighting the need for independent, accurate statistics, independence and trustworthiness of the figures that and for bringing the matter before the House. the Government and the UK Statistics Authority produce. Mark Twain wrote: I will speak about briefly two further proposals, the “Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.” first of which I raised on Second Reading of the Statistics I am not sure that my colleagues in the UK Statistics and Registration Service Bill. The House of Commons Authority would agree. Statistics make a crucial contribution should establish a statistics Select Committee. I pay to good government in a modern democracy, assisting tribute to the excellent work that the Public Administration in the formulation and evaluation of policies, and in the Committee has done on the oversight of statistics during management of the services for which the Government this Parliament and to the Treasury Committee’s work are responsible, encouraging and informing debate, and in the previous Parliament, when it was responsible allowing people to judge whether the Government are for scrutinising Government statistics. However, both delivering on their promises. High-quality statistics are Committees have many other things to examine, and also a key resource for business, academia and the wider they do not devote enough time to ensuring the integrity community. of Government statistics. With increasing emphasis on evidence-based policy Secondly, the budget for the UK Statistics Authority making and effective performance management, statistics should be determined by the House of Commons, not have greater importance than ever before, and ever the Government. Between 2008-09, when the UK Statistics increasing scrutiny is placed on them, not least by the Authority was established by the Labour Government, hon. Gentleman. Statistics must therefore be, and be and 2014-15, the funding for the Office for National seen to be, of the highest professional quality and Statistics has been cut by more than 25% in real terms. integrity. I take his point on having accurate figures Consequently, the number of statistics produced, quality- across a range of different areas with a general election audited and published by the UK Statistics Authority nearing. Many of those statistics are available, but he is has also been cut, which is not good for public trust or right that they must be independent. The UK Statistics public administration. The budget should be restored. Authority’s role as independent guardian of the use of It is a relatively small sum of money—perhaps an statistics is essential in ensuring public trust in what increase in expenditure of some £40 million. After all, politicians say. The designation of a statistic as a national the Government and the UK Statistics Authority tell us statistic is an exemplar of best practice. It allows officials that the UK is now experiencing strong growth. It and the public to be confident that the statistics released would be a serious mistake not to find that additional represent the facts and have been appropriately caveated, resource to give to the public the trust they need in considered and presented. Government figures. The UK Statistics Authority has rightly written to I should like to see the establishment of either a point out where politicians’ use of public statistics has parliamentary statistics commission, modelled on the fallen below the standards that the public expect. The Public Accounts Commission, which determines how hon. Gentleman highlighted examples of that on the much money the National Audit Office should have, to Government side—his point on the number of complaints determine how much money the UK Statistics Authority to the UKSA shows that it is doing a good job in needs to do its work, or a full-blown counterpart to the dealing with complaints—but some of the more egregious 293WH National Statistics14 JANUARY 2015 National Statistics 294WH

[Mr Rob Wilson] was whether the UK Statistics Authority should have the statutory responsibility to designate numerical examples come from the Labour party. I am delighted information produced by Departments as official—that that he has given me this good opportunity to point out was really what he was asking. The Government are once again that the shadow Business, Innovation aware that the UK Statistics Authority is in favour of and Skills Secretary, the hon. Member for Streatham that course of action, and we are considering it. His (Mr Umunna), claimed last year that the number of second question was on having a code of practice for young people claiming jobseeker’s allowance had risen numerical information that is not presently designated by 263% in the north-east since the election when, in as official statistics. The UK Statistics Authority is fact, as the UKSA noted, the published official statistics against that, as it believes it will dilute the code of show that the number of young people claiming JSA in practice on official statistics by creating a lesser class the north-east fell by 27% between May 2010 and May of statistics. It would prefer a much broader definition 2014. He also claimed that there had been a huge of official statistics, which the Government are also increase in the number of people on zero-hours contracts, considering. but the UKSA pointed out that it was not in fact The hon. Gentleman asked about manifesto possible to back up that claim with any official figures. commitments, which is obviously a matter under discussion in manifesto planning more widely. That will be done in Sir Hugh Bayley rose— the normal way in private conversations, but there are many pressures, and many lobby groups wish to inject Mr Wilson: I will give the hon. Gentleman an opportunity such things into party manifestos. He raised the point to respond to those points in a little while. The Leader of the creation of another Select Committee to look at of the Opposition has been rapped on the knuckles for and be responsible for statistics. I am not sure we need his claim that four out of five new jobs were being another Select Committee for that. There may be a case created in London. The official statistics showed that for giving extra powers and responsibilities to Select the reverse was true. He also said that only crisis-hit Committees, but I do not think we need a new one. That Spain had higher numbers of young unemployed people deals with most if not all his questions. than the UK, completely ignoring the relative size of In addition to our regular release of statistics, the European countries and the share of young unemployed Government are committed to being the most open people in the work force. The Labour party also tried to Government ever. Through gov.uk dashboards, we are claim that violent crime was rising by using the police reporting Government performance on areas as diverse recorded crime statistics, completely ignoring the much as blood donation, driving licence bookings and patent more reliable crime survey, which showed that violent renewals. The public can see how we are doing as near crime was falling. In fact, the police recorded crime as possible to real time, without spin or manipulation. statistics have had their national statistics designation removed due to accumulating evidence that the underlying Statistics are part of the story of a Government, but data on crimes recorded by the police might not be they are not the whole story. We can challenge each reliable. other’s ideas and check each other’s numbers, but it is right that the UK Statistics Authority is there to call us Sir Hugh Bayley: It is kind of the Minister to give to account. It cannot, however, become the referee in a way and appropriate that he went through his examples game of political football, particularly in a general of criticisms by the UK Statistics Authority of Opposition election period. Its job is far too important for that. We spokespeople. I acknowledge that Government and have obligations as politicians to be sure of our facts Opposition Members have quoted statistics erroneously, and to ensure that we are confident of the sources of either wilfully or through misunderstanding them. However, our information. That is important, not only in presenting that is not my point. My point is that the figures are our achievements to the electorate, but in developing produced by the Government and in Departments. It is the right policy solutions for our country. important that there is independent scrutiny of the Government, whichever party is in government.

Mr Wilson: If I may, I will turn to some of the 11.28 am questions the hon. Gentleman asked. His first question Sitting suspended. 295WH 14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 296WH

Businesses (North of England) Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the difference between the south and north from a business point of view can be characterised [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] by the fact that only about half a dozen FTSE 100 companies are headquartered north of Watford? That has big implications for many of the things that I think 2.30 pm my hon. Friend wants to raise in this debate and means Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Seven Members have that northern businesses need to be represented strongly. indicated that they wish to speak, and 13 from the Government Benches alone look as if they wish to David Rutley: Absolutely; without question. Having make interventions. I ask for any interventions to be spent many of my working years in the north, it is clear brief and in question form. to me that we need more focus, not just from the Government but from business. We know, from the David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): It is a pleasure to businesses we work with, that there is huge enthusiasm serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mrs Main. to make the northern economy flourish and become I am grateful to secure this debate and I am delighted even stronger. There is no question but that there is with the support of colleagues, for which I thank them, more work to do, including in the private sector as well on a vital subject for us and our constituents. as in the public sector. This is a timely debate that goes along with other big I should like to set out what the Prime Minister said conversation debates about the northern powerhouse. are his six commitments for the north-west, to remind Just last week, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor colleagues. He said clearly in Manchester that he wanted went to Manchester and set out their commitments to to see an increase in the long-term rate of growth in the the north-west. Obviously, other hon. Members will north-west at least at the forecast growth rate of the United want to talk about what the commitments need to be in Kingdom. He wants to see the north-west at the same the north-east as well. average employment rate as in the UK as a whole. We I am delighted that my right hon. Friend the Minister have seen progress already. Output per head in the north- for Universities, Science and Cities is present. We are west grew faster than, or at least as fast as, elsewhere in fortunate to have him here. He has been consistent in the UK during 2013. The ambition is to generate an his approach, putting forward the agenda for the cities £18 billion real-terms increase in the size of the north-west and for the north. He is also a Member from the north, economy by 2030, with more than 100,000 more people from Middlesbrough. We regard him as a real friend for in employment during the next Parliament. These are our cause and are delighted for the time and effort that big ambitions, and they are so important because in the he is putting into looking at proposals to take forward north-west and in the north generally, historically, we the economy in the north. We are delighted that he is have not seen the employment levels that the area and here. the region deserves. We need to do more to help achieve those ambitions. Last week, the Prime Minister talked a lot about the north-west. Obviously, that interests me as the Member The Prime Minister talked about how those commitments of Parliament for Macclesfield, which, as a few colleagues would be achieved. He talked about getting the largest have pointed out, is in Cheshire in the north-west. I will ever and most sustained investment in the long-term focus a lot of my remarks on the north-west, but no transport infrastructure of the north-west and about doubt other Members from the north-east and Yorkshire making sure that we get scientific innovation standing will want to put forward their views on what needs to be out more. done to help move the agenda forward on the east of the Pennines as well. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): On infrastructure, does my hon. Friend welcome the announcement about There is a lot to celebrate in the north. British Chambers the Mersey gateway bridge, which is being built over the of Commerce has been in touch with me, having found river Mersey, opening up the port of Liverpool with out that this debate was taking place, and it highlights greater Cheshire and beyond? Also, the northern hub that a quarter of UK manufacturers are in the north; and electrification of the trans-Pennine routes will open that Sheffield has world-leading expertise in advanced up Manchester and Liverpool over to Leeds and Hull. materials; that the second largest digital and creative sector cluster in Europe is in Greater Manchester; that the automotive cluster around Nissan in Sunderland David Rutley: My hon. Friend anticipates things that accounts for one in three of the UK’s cars, although I I was going to say, but yes, absolutely. The Atlantic think that more will be going on over in Merseyside to gateway is one of those vital, iconic and important compete with that; and that there is a £6 billion infrastructure schemes in the north-west that we want petrochemicals cluster around the Humber. Macclesfield to support. I know all too well the hard work that he is was famous for silk and is now leading the way in life putting into Daresbury and into life sciences. A clear sciences, with 2,200 working at AstraZeneca’s Macclesfield strategy is emerging and we need to make sure that we site. fulfil its potential. This is something that we can be proud of. I spent a The Prime Minister also highlighted the cultural and lot of my career—about 11 years—working in Leeds, sporting strengths in the region. which is now the second biggest financial and legal services I should like to spend a little bit of time on how we cluster outside London. I worked with Asda and Halifax transfer power to our great cities and how to ensure we General Insurance. There are real case studies of best link that with the counties around them. Of course, the practice here that we need to celebrate, and we need to north of England led from the front during the industrial maximise the opportunities. revolution. The ambition of the northern powerhouse 297WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 298WH

[David Rutley] close collaboration between Cheshire East council, Manchester city council—they are councils not of similar is to ensure that the north leads the post-industrial—what political views, but of common economic interests, coming we might even call the re-industrial—21st century, too. together for the local good—and the university of We have the support in the north. People from different Manchester. It is a powerful case study of how collaborative political parties and others such as the chief executive partnerships can work for the economic interests of of Manchester city council, Sir Howard Bernstein, talk local citizens, about which the Minister is absolutely about how the north should become the passionate. “destination of choice for investors”. On the back of that partnership, we secured a £20 million There is no question about that, but I believe it should investment from the growth deal to help further strengthen be a destination of choice for career seekers, hard-working life sciences in the area, which is a real boost. Success families, tourists, for audiences, students, and many breeds success. We are seeing that sense of partnership more. In this region we need to get support behind what and wider collaboration growing. There are imaginative I call the four e’s of economic success—entrepreneurs, and innovative plans. employers, exporters and, of course, employees—and help more people trying to take that first step in any of Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I thank my those areas. hon. Friend for highlighting some of the successes on the eastern or, as we call it, the better side of the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): My hon. Friend Pennines—that is a fact, Mrs Main—early in his speech. will know, of course, that the north-east is leading the On collaboration, I completely agree with what he is way, with the fastest rate of growth of private sector saying, but we have a problem in the Humber that goes business in the autumn quarter. On supporting the four back to the days of Humberside. Our local authorities e’s, does he agree that it is key that the Government, are split between east Yorkshire and north Lincolnshire local authorities and the local enterprise partnerships and simply find it hard to get on. Our fear relates to the ensure that broadband access, which we all need so absence of the local authorities being able to agree to much for our businesses, is made available to all parts of share services or work more collaboratively. We must the country as quickly as possible? not miss out in the Humber because our local authorities cannot get on. David Rutley: Absolutely. Superfast broadband is vital, particularly in places such as Hexham, with its David Rutley: I am not familiar with the issues on the rural communities, but it is just as vital in some more ground that my hon. Friend is experiencing, but local remote communities in Macclesfield and the Peak district. enterprise partnerships and the funding that goes through I am thinking of Rainow, Wincle and Wildboarclough; to them are critical to bringing local authorities together. if they are going to survive and thrive, they need to have If local authorities are committed to delivering economic access to superfast broadband. growth for local citizens, they will have to work together. The other thing that we need to do to support businesses I am sure that the Minister will have more to say on is ensure that they have information about the support that. that is available. Too often, speaking to the Federation of Small Businesses and small businesses in Macclesfield Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend is and in the north-west, I hear that they find it difficult to making a powerful point and an excellent speech. When work out how to get access, whether to employment we are talking about devolving powers and funding, allowance or export finance or training and apprenticeships. which is exceptionally important for the north, we must We have to do everything we can to ensure that we remember that the rural areas play a key part across communicate well and get the word out: that is partly Yorkshire and Humber and on the other side of the our job as Members of Parliament, too. Having served Pennines in the north-west. They must not be left on the FSB’s recent productivity inquiry, it is clear to behind in this devolution. me that it wants better communication. On strategic priorities, I believe, like many of my David Rutley: Once again, an hon. Friend makes a colleagues here, that life sciences and transport infrastructure vital point. It is critical to bring city and county together. are vital and that the transfer of power away from There is a lot of talk about cities, and that is understandable, Whitehall is critical. A growing consensus is emerging as a lot of journalists work in cities and they get that on that. Whether I speak to the North West Business side of things, but the truth is that the broad and Leadership Team or the local enterprise partnerships—the important rural agenda needs to be linked into cities. I Cheshire and Warrington enterprise partnership is doing passionately believe that city and county need to work a good job—there is support for that approach on together, and it will be through strategic partnerships strategic priorities. that we make that work. The initiative in Cheshire, On life sciences, in early 2013, the prospects for Liverpool and Manchester that we want to move forward Cheshire East’s Alderley Park site were not good. is the science corridor, so that we have a thriving life AstraZeneca had made a decision to relocate—some sciences sector stretching from Liverpool to Manchester, colleagues will remember this only too well—its research down to Alderley Park and east to Macclesfield. and development staff to Cambridge. Those were concerning times, but now, a year and a half later, we Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): My hon. have seen more than 300 jobs brought to the site. There Friend is talking about life sciences, but it is worth is a new business owner, Manchester Science Partnerships, saying that there has been a total renaissance of all and a healthy pipeline of businesses wanting to locate science in the north-west. We have the Sir Henry Royce there. That success could not have been achieved without Institute in Manchester, the Cognitive Computing Research 299WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 300WH

Centre at Daresbury, the Square Kilometre Array in what we need to ensure that we have the right connectivity. Cheshire, the National Graphene Institute at the university That will ensure that skills are easily transferred among of Manchester— the different clusters in the north that we need to see thrive and succeed in the years and decades ahead. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The hon. My last point on strategic priority is on transferring Gentleman has made his point. power to the north. It is compelling to see the Government propose an agenda that resonates with local authorities Stephen Mosley: Most importantly, we have the energy that might not have the same political sympathies and sub-surface test centre at the university of Cheshire. views. Anyone looking at the economic development of the north will realise that it is wrong to think that Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I do want to get London should do everything. That is an over-centralised, cross, particularly since Members are making excellent metropolitan and outdated view of how a modern points, but I am sure the hon. Member who secured the economy should run. debate would like to continue. In the United States and in Germany, economic prosperity is much better balanced across major cities. David Rutley: It is difficult to contain the enthusiasm We need to ensure that the situation is the same in the of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester UK. I am delighted that the Government secured an (Stephen Mosley) for this subject, and it is great to see, agreement with Greater Manchester council and the because it makes a difference. I understand and accept Greater Manchester area to create a new mayor with the points that he raised. He makes an important powers brought in from the existing police and crime contribution through his passion and interest in these commissioner. That has gained real support from local matters and through the Science and Technology leaders. It might not sit well with Labour Front Benchers, Committee. At Prime Minister’s questions last week, in but locally it is sitting extraordinarily well with leaders response to my question about what we can do at who want more power. I welcome giving it to them, Alderley Park for life sciences, the Prime Minister talked because with success and progress in Greater Manchester, about how it had a crucial part to play in the improvement the counties around will succeed, too, if we create those of life sciences in the country. He said that we need to partnerships. get more growth deal funding and other initiatives to help bolster life sciences in the north-west. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I fully support My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester decentralisation. I am very supportive of elected mayors— anticipated my next point: this is not just about life the metro mayor concept is definitely a positive for the sciences; it is also about astrophysics. My hon. Friend north—but I am always concerned that places such as the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) will appreciate Cumbria do not get left behind. Can my hon. Friend the importance of the Square Kilometre Array initiative. envisage an elected mayor for Cumbria as a counterweight It is the world’s biggest radio spectrum telescope, and it to the powerhouse of Manchester? is based in Cheshire. It is a globally significant project. We have seen the initial project phase based in Jodrell David Rutley: It is probably way above my pay grade Bank, and we are pushing to ensure that further phases to try to think through what should happen in Cumbria. are headquartered there. I very much hope that the Like my hon. Friend, I love Cumbria and do not want Minister will have a few things to say in support of that, to see it get left behind. The infrastructure points raised because it will put astrophysics and science firmly on about rural broadband and transferring power must the map in the UK once again. That will not only link into rural communities. Otherwise, the northern ensure that the north is known as a leading edge in powerhouse initiative will not achieve the potential that science, but encourage more leading-edge thinking across the north deserves. His idea is worth exploring, but I am industry. sure that he has more expertise in that than me. I will move on to infrastructure, because many other In drawing to a conclusion, I want to focus on the colleagues want to speak. One of the things we need to lessons from Alderley Park, which was an important do in the north is ensure that we can get to it and get experience in my career, to see how partnerships between around it a lot more effectively. There is another city and county can bring about successful results. In powerhouse, I understand, in the south. Some refer to it further reference to the point about Cumbria, let us as London, but people recognise that it is a conurbation learn the lessons from such experiences to ensure we of towns and villages from Uxbridge to Upminster and take the maximum from them. beyond. Crossrail will improve connectivity in that conurbation, but the truth is that we need to do a lot Julian Smith: Like my hon. Friend, I pay tribute to more in the north. As many people will know, it takes the work that Manchester has done, but does he agree longer to get from Liverpool to Hull than from London that Leeds, which also wants to do a deal with Whitehall, to Paris, and that has to change. There are exciting needs to show that it will act above politics and provide positive initiatives such as the big new trans-Pennine scrutiny and governance mechanisms that are beyond high-speed rail project, which some people call High reproach to demonstrate to people of all parties that it Speed 3, or overdue rail electrification, to which others is working for the region and not for any one political have referred. party? All those things are vital. HS2 will bring greater connectivity, but I want to ensure that we continue to David Rutley: As always, my hon. Friend makes an have good, vibrant services with the same regularity important point. I absolutely agree. Leeds is a city that I and speed on the west coast main line. People will fully know well and love. We must trust local politicians and understand that HS2 is about driving capacity, which is civic leaders to do the things that are in the best economic 301WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 302WH

[David Rutley] productively together. For that to happen, there needs to be proper engagement and an awareness of what interests of those whom they serve. They need to work Government policy means to people on the ground. I closely with local MPs and surrounding authorities to want to highlight a couple of areas where I believe more fulfil that potential. Whether in the centre of Leeds, Government engagement with business is needed to Pudsey or wherever, they must work in the economic tackle persistent problems. interests of local residents. The first example is business rates. As chair of the I feel as if I have spoken for a little too long [HON. all-party parliamentary group on small shops, I hear MEMBERS: “No!”]. Okay, I will take the next 10 minutes. that raised frequently by retailers, especially in northern I know that many people other want to speak, so let me towns, because they have been adversely affected. I was draw to a quick conclusion. The report put forward by pleased to hear the Chancellor promise in the autumn Jim O’Neill of the Royal Society of Arts, who is a well statement a review of the business rates system along respected economist and the city growth commissioner, with other support for small businesses, but the reality said that, if we get this right, we will get a 5% improvement is that the cancelled revaluation had a devastating effect in productivity throughout the UK. We absolutely need on northern towns that were already hit hard by the that and the people whom we seek to serve deserve it. recession. With property prices falling, shop owners in When the Chancellor first set out his compelling Rochdale were left facing artificially high business rates vision for the northern powerhouse, he rightly did that and effectively subsidising big retailers in fancy parts of at the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester: London. a museum that sets out how the north led scientific The clear unfairness in the business rates system has innovation and industrial progress. Sadly, too many also led to a growing micro-economy of firms trying to people find out about our industrial heritage from the exploit rates confusion. I recently raised the case of a Science Museum in south Kensington, which is not surveyor based in Heywood, next door to Rochdale, exactly the economic or industrial powerhouse. That which I believe is acting unethically and potentially needs to change. We must not let London lead the illegally. For a start, that firm calls itself the Rating and whole debate. We are not kowtowing to London and we Valuation Agency, which I am sure hon. Members will do not want to copy it or do what it says. We need to agree sounds like it is trying to masquerade as a Government compete strongly, show what our commitments are and agency. The firm’s tactic is to offer to get businesses a play to our unique selling points. We have huge potential discount on their rates in exchange for a small fee and a in the north to set out a compelling and attractive vision share of any discount that it manages to secure as for a northern powerhouse by engaging with our local commission. businesses and residents. With the Government’s support, It will be no surprise to hon. Members to hear that we can go on to achieve even greater things. the majority of businesses that used the firm got no reduction at all. What is surprising is that businesses Several hon. Members rose— then received letters from RVA aggressively demanding money and threatening court action. RVA claimed that Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Before I call it was owed money as a result of business rate reductions Simon Danczuk, I remind Members that, if we have passed on by the Chancellor in the autumn statement. interventions as long as that from the hon. Member for Outrageously, in some cases it was demanding more City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), we will be lagging than 50% of the discount offered by the Government. somewhat. There are approximately seven minutes per Something needs to be done about that. Member, provided that every Member speaks for a Similar things are going on all over the country, similar amount of time. If not, I will enforce a time limit. especially in the north where the rates are most damaging. I have seen research showing the activities of firms who 2.54 pm charge fees of about £800 to submit business rates appeals on behalf of small businesses. In such cases, up Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): It is a delight to to three quarters of appeals are withdrawn because they serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I commend are considered to be of too poor a quality by the the hon. Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) on Valuation Office Agency. Businesses are clearly being securing this important debate. Let me also thank hon. ripped off, but I want to make a broader point. The Members for the welcome I received on entering the only reason why such sharp business practices exist is Chamber. that we have an unfair and antiquated rates system. If Unlike other hon. Members, I have not been provided we had a fair system, based on regular revaluations, we with a list of Government initiatives to read out during could avoid all of the chaos and misery being caused to the debate. I like to consider myself to be something of businesses. a champion of small businesses in the north of England. Great work is being done by local authorities such as I am a firm believer in the power of business to transform Rochdale and Blackburn—both Labour authorities—on people’s life chances and spread prosperity and opportunity business rates. In Rochdale, a scheme has been introduced throughout the whole country. In that, the relationship recently that allows a reduction on business rates—80% in between Government and business is vital. the first year and 50% in the second year—for people Thefashionableviewheldbysomehon.Members—perhaps who take up vacant shops, in an attempt to fill empty not those in the Chamber—is that the Government’s shops and commercial properties on the high street. role should be simply to step out of the way of business. That revolutionary approach should give our town a I certainly do not share that view, though I accept that real boost. Blackburn is doing something similar. However, we can have too much regulation and red tape. There are all of that good work will be undermined unless central areas where business and Government can work more Government step up and sort out the mess in the 303WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 304WH business rates system. That is why I have talked about and to see a company going from strength to strength—it is how the Government have failed to support businesses staying in Barnoldswick and now has about 800 employees, in the north of England with business rates. 150 more than four years ago. Support for business comes not only from Government, Other Government support for businesses throughout but from the banks. Recently, I was shocked at my the UK has been welcomed, in particular by businesses treatment when I was trying to open a business bank in Pendle. Barnoldswick bicycle part manufacturer account in Rochdale. The local branch of the Royal Hope Technology—also visited by the Prime Minister, Bank of Scotland told me there was a waiting list of in April 2013—took advantage of the Government’s two weeks to open a business bank account—I kid you significant research and development incentives, allowing not. Lloyds took my details, but failed to get back to me it to expand and innovate more rapidly. The company’s and several months have now passed. Those are two latest plans are for a new £4.5 million centre for research banks that have received significant sums of taxpayers’ and development and a 250-metre, Olympic-length money, and yet are failing to perform the primary function velodrome, the first velodrome built outside a major of supporting the local economy. The contrast between city in the UK. those two banks and Santander, a Spanish bank, where Hope Technology employs 110 people and exports I received an excellent service, was telling. We need to about 65% of its products to Indonesia, Malaysia and see more action from the Government on bank support Hong Kong. The company reckons that the self-funded for businesses. Government need to play a more active flagship expansion will create more than 50 new jobs role to ensure that banks lend properly to businesses and put Barnoldswick firmly on the map. Any more and give them the level of service that they deserve. support that the Government can give to such companies We all know that the past few years have been tough, would be much appreciated. especially in many of our northern towns and cities. To Manufacturers in Pendle and throughout the north turn the situation around, we need to help businesses to also welcomed the increase in capital allowances announced grow and develop. Businesses need all the support that in the 2012 autumn statement. The Chancellor of the they can get from Government. In the areas that I have Exchequer said: highlighted, there is clearly room for improvement. In years gone by, the north led the way in innovation and “I would like to help small and medium-sized firms more, and economic growth. If we get the right support, I am I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) and for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) for their thoughts convinced that we can do so again. on that matter. Starting on 1 January, and for the next two years, I will increase tenfold the annual investment allowance in plant and 3.1 pm machinery. Instead of £25,000-worth of investment being eligible for 100% relief, £250,000-worth of investment will now qualify.”— Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate my [Official Report, 5 December 2012; Vol. 551, c. 881.] hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) The businesses located in Pendle and I are pleased that on securing the debate and on setting out a really good the Government not only continued the scheme after argument in favour of investment in the north of England the initial two years, but increased the allowance further, and of supporting our businesses. I will keep my remarks incentivising manufacturing businesses in the north to focused on Pendle and the support that businesses there invest in new plant and equipment. have received, as well as some of the challenges that we still face. Local businesses in Lancashire received another significant boost in July 2013, when the Government Pendle’s local economy relies heavily on manufacturing, agreed with the arguments that many of my Lancashire and Government support for manufacturing is critical colleagues and I were making and approved £5 million to Pendle and much of the north of England. Only last of additional business support through the regional Friday the Chancellor of the Exchequer, wearing a hair growth fund to help local mid-sized manufacturers to net, visited Farmhouse Biscuits in Nelson to hear about expand. In the past 12 months, 14 businesses in Pendle its success and some of the challenges it still faces. have benefited from almost £1 million in grants, regenerating Some 1.8 million manufacturing jobs were lost under Pennine Lancashire, creating well in excess of 100 jobs the previous Government and by August 2009, in Pendle, and safeguarding many more. Such support is in addition 2,239 people were claiming jobseeker’s allowance. That to numerous other Government programmes, such as number had fallen to a little more than 1,000 by November the textile growth programme and various supply chain last year—a drop of 55%. As a result, some of the initiatives, which have also been welcomed and used by larger employers are starting to increase pay and improve many Pendle businesses. conditions. For example, boohoo.com recently significantly The announcement of assisted area status for Pendle increased wages, and the Daisy Group, based on the last year is another important step forward for my Lomeshaye industrial estate, has just given all its staff constituency. The previous assisted area status map, an extra week’s holiday entitlement. drawn up under the previous Government in 2007, That situation did not come about by accident, but included parts of Blackburn, Hyndburn and Burnley, because of the hard work of local businesses and the but not a single part of Pendle. During the consultation actions of the Government and our local authorities to on the new map, Pendle council and the Lancashire support job creation in the area. For example, the then local enterprise partnership argued for four Pendle wards Conservative-led Lancashire county council acted to to be included. I met Ministers and made the case not support one of Pendle’s largest employers, Silentnight, only for those four wards, but for going much further. I when it went into administration in 2011. I have talked am delighted that in the end it was agreed that 13 Pendle about that before in a Westminster Hall debate, so I will wards should be included—more than half the borough— not go into any detail. All I will add is that I was proud with assisted area status now covering businesses stretching to take the Prime Minister to visit Silentnight in May 2014 from Reedley and Brierfield through to Earby. 305WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 306WH

[Andrew Stephenson] make any money redeveloping ex-industrial brownfield sites. They therefore focus on easier-to-develop greenfield On support for the skills agenda, in addition to four sites. That is especially the case in Pendle, where we still new primary schools in Pendle, a major investment at have about 1,200 empty homes, down from about 2,000 West Craven high school and a new university technical in 2010. college in Burnley, the outstanding Nelson and Colne college continues to go from strength to strength. Nelson Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Could the hon. and Colne college recently benefited from a £3.6 million Gentleman start to bring his remarks to a close in the investment in its facilities and has been pivotal in delivering interests of colleagues who also wish to participate? the Government’s ambition of a record number of apprenticeships—the number of apprenticeship starts locally has more than doubled. Andrew Stephenson: Yes, definitely. In my part of the country, we have some of the lowest We have a real challenge with brownfield sites, and we property prices. Even with many more people in work, need funding for them. I am delighted that the Minister regeneration and private sector housing schemes can be of State, Department for Communities and Local tricky to stack up financially. In September 2013, I led a Government, who is responsible for housing and planning, debate here in Westminster Hall on regeneration in announced last week that east Lancashire has been Brierfield and Nelson. I talked about the Brierfield Mill shortlisted as a brownfield housing zone. I am keen to development in my constituency. It was the largest see that go forward, but we still need more support. redundant mill complex in Lancashire, and in March 2012 I could go on longer, but many Members want to the Government gave Pendle council a £1.5 million grant speak, so I will conclude by saying that significant via the Homes and Communities Agency to buy it. progress has been made, but I look forward to more Under the previous Government, the mill complex being made over the coming weeks and months. had been bought by a Birmingham-based Islamic charity, which planned to convert the site into a 5,000-place 3.10 pm boarding school for girls. Now in public ownership, the 380,000-square-foot complex of buildings on a seven-acre Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): site is located next to the M65 motorway and Brierfield It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship yet railway station. The site has the potential to be a key again, Mrs Main, and to follow my hon. Friend the driver of jobs and growth. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), a fellow Bringing such a large grade II listed building back Lancastrian. It is great to see so much support for the into use in such a deprived part of the north of England, debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member however, will require some public funding in addition to for Macclesfield (David Rutley) on securing it. private sector investment. Architects have come up with The issue before us is the diversity of the north and an impressive vision for the site, which will be renamed why the north is different. I was going to say that it is Northlight and include 71 retirement flats, a 78-bed different from other regions because all of us there have hotel and spa, leisure facilities, business units, a new to cope with Yorkshire, but I will not say that. What I marina on the canal and a family pub. Using the will say is that a feature of our region going back over Government’s business premises renovation allowance different Governments over the years has been its distance, or BPRA scheme, now available thanks to the new in a sense, from this country’s powerhouse—Greater assisted area status that I mentioned earlier, private London. One of the oddest things for many of us who sector investors are lined up for almost every part of the were new Members of Parliament in 2010 was that, for project, but they still need some more support to make the 13 years of the previous Government, and indeed the whole thing viable. The Lancashire LEP has bid for before, to be fair, the divide between the London some of the funding in the second phase of the growth powerhouse and the rest of the country, particularly the deals. north-west region, had simply got wider and wider. In advance of the decision being announced, I am When I looked around my constituency as a new delighted that the Minister responsible for the deals, Member of Parliament in 2010, I saw its huge strengths. who also happens to be responding to today’s debate, The Lancaster part had its university in the top 10, and has kindly accepted my invitation to visit the site this it was spewing out businesses. Fleetwood perhaps felt Friday. I am hoping that, after visits to Brierfield Mill that it was somewhat in decline because of the state of by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local its fishing, but there were still incredible businesses Government, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation there, such as Fisherman’s Friend, a family business and Skills, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and two that exports to more than 100 countries and reinvests in successive Ministers of State for Housing and Local the town. The rural parts—other Members have mentioned Government, my hon. Friend can finally move forward rural areas—also had huge strengths in terms of their the £34 million landmark regeneration scheme, which I businesses and farming businesses, which had been have been working to resolve since my election. through bad times and good times. Brierfield Mill is by far the largest regeneration project As the Member of Parliament, I was told that there the local business community and the council are trying was lots of potential, but there was a feeling that, “We to undertake, but it also links in to the need for more can’t do anything unless London tells us what to do.” In Government support for developers in the north who want 2010, businesses told me that banks wanted loans paid to redevelop brownfield sites. It is great that figures off quickly. There was a lack of confidence, and banks show that house building has increased by 20% over the wondered whether they should invest their money. People last year, but in some parts on the north, such as Pendle, were trying to get together, including with the county, to property prices are so low that developers struggle to look at some kind of north-west or Lancashire investment 307WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 308WH bank or, indeed, at having a stock exchange in the north Eric Ollerenshaw: My hon. Friend is exactly right. We again—in 1914, there were 64 stock exchanges across only have to look at the figures: the north-west’s contribution the country. to GDP in the 13 years before 2010 was falling and There is potential in the region, but how do we open falling as Greater London expanded. I am not particularly it up? To give the Government great credit, the single blaming the previous Labour Government, because this was biggest thing they did to finally convince businesses in a continuation from previous Governments. Governments my area that it was worth investing again was committing made huge attempts to address these issues, and I am to building the M6 link road to Heysham, with funding old enough to remember the ’60s, when Governments of £111 million. That was a difficult decision in 2010-11, would suddenly announce they were going to provide in the midst of our worries about recession and of money to put a car factory here or an agency there, but cutting back on the deficit. A plan for a motorway had there was no follow-through. been on the drawing board since 1938, so the Government’s The Government’s priority should be to get the fiscal commitment to implement it—it is nearly finished—was thing right, and what we have seen on corporation tax is a massive statement of confidence in the area. all very welcome. However, the infrastructure thing There is also the investment in the coastal communities is massive in enabling the north-west to contribute to fund, with £67 million going into Fleetwood’s flood rebalancing the economy. That is important, and the defences. That was a Government commitment. The Government have followed through on it, for which I biggest commitment, however, as Members have mentioned, am grateful. has been in infrastructure—in our connections with the I would add, because the Minister is here, that we are rest of the country and, yes, with Yorkshire, which will still looking to bids to remodel junction 33 on the M6, allow people from Yorkshire to visit Lancashire to see and there is still a bid under the regional growth fund how great it is. In particular, there are the connections for a Fleetwood fish park, which is for a minor £3 million, with London, and High Speed 2 is vital, but we should although it would generate £20 million-odd of further not forget the investment in electrification from Preston investment. all the way through to Blackpool, something the previous There is a challenge for all of us as Members from the Government did nothing about. There is also the north to galvanise the region to start doing things off its electrification from Manchester to Liverpool, something own bat, without asking central Government what should the previous Government, again, did nothing about. happen. I give due credit to the metropolitan leaders The incredible thing for a new Conservative Member who have come together. Bringing Yorkshire metropolitan of Parliament in a north-west seat was the view that leaders together with Lancashire metropolitan leaders— nothing seemed to have happened before and that we Manchester and Liverpool are still part of the old could not do anything without asking the Government. County Palatine of Lancashire—is fantastic, and we The Government tended to ignore the north-west, except, should do that more. We should be thinking about these perhaps, what we in north Lancashire used to refer to as things, and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle Greater Manchester and Merseyside. We need to get (John Stevenson) talked about Cumbria. that balance right. The north could generate investment potential, and I Simon Danczuk: I have been enjoying the hon. want to lay down markers now. As northern MPs, we Gentleman’s speech, but I just want to correct him on should perhaps look together, across parties, at a northern one or two points. The truth is that the previous Labour investment bank or a northern stock exchange—all Government put a lot of investment into the north-west, these things are possible. The Government have laid not least through the regional development agency, down a marker and given us the best chance of realising which did an excellent job of sharing out the money. them, but we have to put our bit in as well. That money went not least to Lancaster university, which had an absolute fortune spent on it under the 3.18 pm Labour Government, and the hon. Gentleman’s constituents Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Some of the most and others benefit from that. exciting and innovative developments in this country today are along the science corridor, which a number of Eric Ollerenshaw: I hate to disagree with the hon. Members have mentioned. It crosses several constituencies, Gentleman. I agreed with a great deal of what he said in including mine and that of my immediate neighbour, his speech, but the absurdity of the previous economic my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David strategy—the regional development agencies—was that Rutley), to whom I pay tribute for calling the debate. London, which is the richest part of the country, had its The Government have rightly committed many millions own agency. I know something about that, having been of pounds of national funding to supporting the corridor a member of it. What the hon. Gentleman says was not and adjacent infrastructure—not least in my constituency, the message I got from Lancaster university, Lancaster where £45 million of growth deal funding has gone council or Lancashire county council when I was elected towards the Congleton link road, about which I have in 2010. As I said, the regional development agency for spoken in the House on a number of occasions; I am the north-west concentrated wholly and utterly on grateful to Ministers for listening and responding to my Merseyside and Greater Manchester, and we got precious points. It is of great importance to businesses in my little. constituency, such as Reliance Medical, Senior Aerospace Andrew Percy: The point raised earlier about regional Bird Bellows and Airbags International. However, that development agencies is one of the big myths still is not what I want chiefly to speak about today. I want perpetuated by some. The reality is that, during the to focus on Jodrell Bank. period they existed, and for all the work they may have The world famous dish of Jodrell Bank lies within my done, the north became relatively less well off and constituency, although I must confess that the controls relatively poorer compared with the south. are in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member 309WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 310WH

[Fiona Bruce] He adds that “when there are lots of these…as might be the case for emission for Macclesfield, so we share an interest. Jodrell Bank is from housing developments then it has a significant impact on the important locally, regionally, nationally and internationally. data.” I want to highlight that importance and express concern Even a domestic microwave in someone’s home can about a threat to its work and to recent Government have an impact on the work at Jodrell Bank. It is investment in it. important to remember that decades ago Professor To provide some context, I should say that Jodrell Bank Lovell moved his work at the university from the centre has been at the forefront of radar technology since it of Manchester to Cheshire, to avoid such interference. became world famous in 1957, as the Lovell telescope Professor Garrington says that the work of Jodrell emerged as the only instrument capable of using radar Bank has already been hampered by local development, to detect the Russian satellite Sputnik. It now hosts the explaining that the e-MERLIN national facility as well as the Lovell telescope. “discovery of pulsars was led by Jodrell Bank for many years” It continues to produce world-class science. It also hosts the outstanding Discovery centre, which has done much but that to increase public awareness of science in the UK. That “now…we can no longer find new pulsars and our experiments has more than 140,000 visitors a year, including about are limited to timing the pulsars which are already known. We do 16,000 schoolchildren taking part in its education make the most precise measurements...but really interference programme, and it has received numerous awards. The limits the extent to which we can search for new pulsars.” BBC transmitted its “Stargazing Live” programme from He explains how researchers at Jodrell Bank have done Jodrell Bank from 2011 to 2014. the most extensive analysis anywhere, to understand As we heard, the Square Kilometre Array is at the how towns, developments and roads affect the work. He leading edge of astrophysics research, and continues to has given evidence to a planning committee in Cheshire receive the full support of universities, businesses and in the past month, and says: public sector agencies across the north and beyond, “We have in the last few months constructed a detailed map which work together to underpin its activities. It is a which quantifies this loss due to distance and terrain...What this model shows is that the largest potential contribution is often very important area—a national and global network of from local villages such as Goostrey”. telescopes, with Jodrell Bank at the centre, carrying out unique, world-leading science, across a wide range of Goostrey is a village in my constituency, between 1 mile astrophysics and cosmology. The facilities at Jodrell Bank and 2 miles from Jodrell Bank. Professor Garrington are used by almost every university astrophysics group adds that modelling of the proposed development in in the country and hundreds of scientists in the UK and Goostrey Europe, and across the globe. The developments being “shows that it will add significantly to what is a present and undertaken by Jodrell Bank, and its potential developments, growing problem...We believe this continued development at this are of huge importance to jobs and the economy. rate so close to Jodrell Bank poses a significant impact on the science that can be carried out at this international institution.” In 2013, the Minister’s predecessor as Science Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts), Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Can I ask the opened the SKA and Jodrell Bank as its centre. The SKA hon. Lady to bring her remarks to a close, as we have is a project that joins thousands of receivers across the winding-up speeches at 20 to four? globe to create the largest, most sensitive radio telescope ever built. Members of the SKA include Australia, China, Italy, the Netherlands, New Zealand, South Africa, Fiona Bruce: I will, Mrs Main. I am raising this Canada, Germany and Sweden; and the UK leads it. At concern because the village of Goostrey has 900 houses the opening Dame Nancy Rothwell, of the university of and there are now plans to build up to 250 additional Manchester, called it a “cutting edge science project” houses. Applications have been put in and some have and said that it would been agreed. The latest one is for a development of 119. “become a real science and engineering hub”. A public meeting was held in the village only last The Minister’s predecessor said: Friday, attended by 250 people, asking for consideration of an exclusion zone for further housing development “This project is pushing the frontiers and that is why the Chancellor has awarded some of the extra £600 m towards around Jodrell Bank of up to, say, 2 miles; no doubt the science development” parameters could be established by discussion with to it. He said it was Jodrell Bank, which I understand supports the proposals. “a global strategic project but one that Great Britain is a major I am keen that the Science Minister should be aware of player in.” the request, and I hope that he will consider it. The economic benefits of that work for the national economy cannot be over-estimated. However—and it is 3.26 pm a big “however”—it is threatened. Professor Simon Garrington of the university of Manchester has spoken Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure of the detrimental effect of radio interference from to speak under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I thank surrounding developments on the work at Jodrell Bank: my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David “Radio interference has an impact on almost all the experiments Rutley) for securing the debate. that are carried out at Jodrell Bank.” In 1992, Bill Clinton’s campaign slogan was “It’s the He explains that in many observations radio interference economy, stupid.” That is still apt today, after 23 years. is the main factor limiting the quality of the data and This last year, the UK economy had the highest growth that rate of any western nation, and I happily report that “every increase in interference...reduces the amount of useful businesses in Calder Valley, where 20% of my constituents data that are left”. work in manufacturing and 40% in the banking and 311WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 312WH financial sector, are all punching well above their weight Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I am sure the hon. in contributing to economic growth. The majority just Gentleman’s colleagues will thank him for his consideration get on and do—and make no mistake, they always do it in keeping his speech brief. with sheer Yorkshire grit, bucketloads of innovation, fabulous Yorkshire canniness that creates an eye for fabulous future leaders, and reinvestment into businesses, 3.31 pm which sustains them through bad times as well as good. Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): I will also try I am not going to mention the Government’s advertised to be brief, Mrs Main, as I believe my hon. Friend the 636 schemes of finance and support for business, because Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) wishes to speak. It like most northerners I am a little sceptical about what is always a delight to follow my hon. Friend the Member real help some of those schemes offer. However, I will for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker). I congratulate my talk about the schemes that Calder Valley businesses tell hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) me about, which they feel are incredibly helpful to on securing this debate. them. Those schemes give hard-working Calder Valley I am incredibly fortunate in the Ribble Valley to have businesses relief and help them on their way, allowing businesses both small and large. Between Salmesbury in them to get on and build the local and national economy my patch and Warton in a neighbouring patch, BAE further. Systems employs 11,000 people, and it is well known The huge success story is, without question, that for every job created at BAE Systems, about three apprenticeships, of which there have been more than are created in smaller businesses down the pipeline. The 1.5 million in the past four years. They have massively Consortium of Lancashire Aerospace has firms in a reduced youth unemployment and trained future engineers, number of my hon. Friends’ constituencies, which do manufacturers, bankers, retailers and administrators, rather well from having BAE Systems nearby—and to name a few. In Calder Valley more than 2,100 more power to their elbow. apprenticeships have started in the past two years: 490 There are also much smaller businesses in my in engineering and manufacturing; 350 in retail trades; constituency, such as the paper cup company in Clitheroe 610 in banking and financial services; and 110 in that has seen investment of £250,000 and brought jobs construction. back from China to Clitheroe. Lancashire does rather Small business rate relief has been a huge relief to well: in the area of high-end, high-spec jobs, the ability small start-ups. It has been helpful in particular to to get access to fast broadband has brought high-tech hard-pressed high street retailers, helping small retailers jobs into Clitheroe. A company called YUDU has to compete with blue chip retailers, but it has also given created a tremendous number of jobs there. The skills a helping hand to dozens of start-up businesses. Small available in Lancashire can lead to jobs for so many business loans have been a huge hit locally; 43 individuals young and enterprising people working hard in firms have applied for and received a small business loan and large and small throughout the area. mentoring in the past year, of whom 40% were female Although it does not come under the portfolio of the and 40% were under 30. They are a great way to Minister, I want to touch on an issue that, as I represent promote self-worth and entrepreneurial spirit. a rural constituency, worries me greatly. A lot of our Many Calder Valley businesses have benefited from small businesses are farms. Recently, a number of farmers the regional growth fund, helping to boost job growth. have not been able to get paid for the milk they have Unemployment is down to just 1.8%, and we have the produced. Indeed, in the month of December alone, highest number of women in employment and the highest 60 farmers went out of business throughout the country. average earnings in west Yorkshire. Companies such as We know how important dairy farming is to the United AD Plastic Solutions in Hebden Bridge, Archway Kingdom and to the north of England in particular. I Engineering in Elland, Kavia Tooling in Todmorden, hope that the Government will get involved directly to Microsearch Laboratories in Mytholmroyd, F.Crowther ensure that farmers get their money and that something and Son in Brighouse and Calder Valley Skip Hire in is done about the insane pricing of milk throughout the Ripponden are great Calder Valley businesses punching country, as it is now cheaper to buy milk than water. above their weight with a helping hand from Government. Something has to be wrong there. When milk is being On the national infrastructure level, Calder Valley sold at 89p for four pints, the contracts between farmers businesses are really excited about High Speed 2 coming and those buying the milk must be insane, and it is no to Leeds, bringing much needed capacity on our wonder that those businesses cannot make a go of it. overcrowded east coast main line. Hon. Members can Tourism is also important to me, and the fact that we imagine how excited those businesses are about the have our wonderful countryside is down to our farmers. announcement of High Speed 3, as my hon. Friend the If we want to attract people from large cities into rural Member for Macclesfield mentioned. That vital areas, we must ensure that we have viable businesses infrastructure investment will enable our national economy there. We desperately need to do something about small to grow, flourish and compete on a global level. farming businesses. It is not all about rail, either. Money spent on widening When the Minister goes to Pendle, I hope he will also the trans-Pennine M62 route has enabled easier commutes spend some time in the Ribble Valley, where a number and passageway to markets for our businesses. That has of businesses are built on tourism and on hospitality in been vital for keeping the cogs and gears of our great particular. I went with the hon. Member for Rochdale northern powerhouse well oiled, so as to contribute (Simon Danczuk) to the Baum, which has won the towards the great economic recovery of our nation. So Campaign for Real Ale’s award for pub of the year. I it is not just the economy, stupid—we should add, now have a CAMRA pub of the year next door to me, “With a welcome hand from Government where that is the Swan with Two Necks. Businesses such as those, needed and wanted.” and James’s Places, which runs the Emporium, the 313WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 314WH

[Mr Nigel Evans] output. It has a work force of 1.4 million people in over 100,000 businesses, building an economy worth over Waddington Arms, the Shireburn Arms and Mitton £55 billion in 2012. It is also now recognised as a national Hall, are providing lots of extra jobs to the hospitality centre for financial and business services. As my hon. trade in the area—James’s Places provides over 300—that Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) help young people in particular. mentioned, Leeds is the second largest financial centre Our farming, hospitality and hostelry industries mean in the UK. that the Ribble Valley has some of the finest places for To date, the LEP has worked to unlock the city people to go. They are backed up by Ribble Valley region’s potential and develop the economic powerhouse council, which runs the Ribble Valley Food Trail. People that will create the jobs and prosperity we need. Its can go to see where a lot of their food is produced and ambition is to make the city region a net contributor to sold. There is a wonderful weekend when people can the UK economy. To do so, it has provided grant come into Clitheroe to celebrate what is wonderful investment to over 336 businesses already, with the about food production, hostelry and beer production. potential to create over 3,000 jobs. It has also given loan The Bowland Beer Company has been taken over by investments, so that major projects that had stalled in James’s Places and will be coming into Clitheroe shortly, recent years can get under way. bringing huge investment. Thwaites Brewery is also Another sector with real potential for the Leeds area coming into Ribble Valley from Blackburn, which will is the creative and digital industry, which is one of the help secure hundreds of jobs for east Lancashire. LEP’s priority sectors. CDi Print Yorkshire is an initiative The Ribble Valley is a rural area that has seen wonderful match-funded by the British Printing Industries Federation. investment from small and large businesses over the year Unique to the region, it works across the creative, thanks to this Government. We now have an unemployment digital and printing industry, supporting and connecting rate of about 1%. I want to see that continue—and with businesses so that they can really grow. The wider region this Government’s policies and support, it will. already has 120,000 employees in this sector, and there are more of the top 100 digital agencies in Leeds city Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I call Mr Stuart region than anywhere outside London. That is allowing Andrew, who has just under four minutes to make a them now to bid to become recognised as a tech city. wonderful speech. I recognise that time is running out fast, but because all those things are going on, and because of the real 3.36 pm examples we have heard about today, I believe that the Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): No pressure, then. north is vibrant and growing and the potential is there I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this for the taking. With the northern economic powerhouse debate, not least because it enables us all to showcase and the investment that we are seeing, which I hope will some of the exciting things that are happening in the include a rail link to Leeds Bradford airport, it is true north. For too long, some have painted a picture of the that it is not grim up north—it’s great! north that fails to focus on the real positives that are happening there. I have also seen some great partnership 3.40 pm across the Pennines today, despite the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): What a pleasure (Andrew Percy). it is to serve under your chairmanship again, Mrs Main, During my time in this House, I have been impressed and I agree with what the hon. Member for Pudsey by the real determination of businesses in my constituency (Stuart Andrew) was saying: it is not grim up north—it’s to do everything they can to help get the economy out great. It is a fantastic place and I think it has been really of recession. They have continued to invest and have interesting in this debate to see how hon. Members can actively sought new markets to help their businesses to come together and really want to champion the north as continue. Some are now really reaping the rewards, with an area. many investing in premises expansion, such as Vickers I particularly thank the hon. Member for Macclesfield Laboratories in Pudsey, or seeing a growing export (David Rutley). We have discussed economic development market to major economies such as China—that is the matters before, and he has always provided consistent experience of Hainsworth Mill in Stanningley, which support for businesses in wanting to champion them in for generations has been producing quality products, the House. I commend him for that, and he has done it including the cloth for the Woolsack in the House of again this afternoon. He said that Macclesfield is famous Lords. for silk, but for my generation, Macclesfield is famous That determination is still there even in businesses for Joy Division and Ian Curtis. I would be more than that have suffered a major catastrophe. For example, the happy to talk about them for the next 10 minutes, but I premises of Airedale International were completely think economic development in the north is equally destroyed, but it has shown real commitment to the important. north by relocating temporarily and rebuilding those Our past and our industrial legacy have been mentioned premises. I pay tribute to all the businesses, large, medium time and again. It is certainly true that industrialisation—the and small, that have kept going. Their commitment, industrial revolution—started in the north. Just to keep hon. along with the Government’s long-term economic plan, Members onside, let us be frank: it started in the north-east. has seen unemployment in my constituency fall by The north-east, the north-west and Yorkshire and the nearly 50%—it now stands at 1.7%. Humber were drivers of innovation, entrepreneurialism My constituency and those businesses make up part and prosperity, and they offered a real counterpoint to of the Leeds City Region LEP.One of the largest outside the capital of London. Do not forget that London was London, it generates nearly 4% of the UK’s economic the capital of the empire—the biggest city in the world—but 315WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 316WH it was not dominating or eclipsing the fantastic powerhouses what to do. A gap was left in support, so we have lost of the north. We need to have the model that we had in two or three years in which we could have really chased the 19th century back in a modern, innovative 21st century ahead in respect of economic growth in the regions. economy, and this is about working together to make sure that happens. We want to see the north thrive and David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): It is really see the creation and expansion of highly skilled, well-paid unfair to say that the reason why the RDAs were abolished jobs in businesses and industries that are innovative, was that they were not invented by this Government. highly productive and selling their goods and services to They were abolished because they were not focused the rest of the world. I hope that the whole House can enough on the north. We have heard that there was one share that vision. in the south-east and one in London—that is not very The hon. Gentleman and others have talked about regional. The fact remains that the Centre for Cities report devolution and governance of the north. All credit to states that between 1997 and 2008, for every 10 jobs the Minister; he is very knowledgeable and passionate generated in London, one was generated in the north. about this matter. A key offer, which has been mentioned That is why the RDAs had to go. several times in the debate, is to ensure that the north can shape its own destiny. Why should we, as hon. Members, be going cap in hand to Whitehall officials—it Mr Wright: But why outright abolition rather than is usually officials—who have no knowledge, frankly, of reform? I certainly could not justify the idea of a the north and no awareness of the nuances of how the south-east regional development agency, but making dynamics of local economies work? Why can we not sure that there could be reform while trying to have as have the tools and powers to realise our potential and much continuity as possible would have been best for shape our own destiny? business and providing Government support. Successive Governments have moved in that direction. This Government are continuing to do so, and the next Andrew Percy: I have to correct the hon. Gentleman Labour Government, in about 113 days, will be continuing on the idea of a consensus that the RDAs were performing it as well. The Leader of the Opposition has said that he well. In the Humber, we felt strongly that the Yorkshire wishes to devolve £4 billion of Whitehall spend directly regional development agency was very much Leeds-focused, to city and, crucially for the hon. Member for Macclesfield, and it is fair to say that since introduction of the to county regions, too. That is about double the sum Humber LEP, we have a real vision of what we want for proposed by the present Government. I am interested in our economy in terms of new renewable energies and a what the Minister has to say about further devolution real drive to get to that. We did not have that under and further governance arrangements. Yorkshire Forward. In many respects, governance can be a very theoretical issue. Something I admire about the hon. Member for Mr Wright: The hon. Gentleman makes an important Macclesfield and other hon. Members in this Chamber point. If we are going to have true devolution to the is their practicality. When we consider Government north and a recognition that city regions can really support for businesses, we have to think about practicalities. power local economies, how do we ensure that areas If I run a company in Macclesfield or Hartlepool, what that are peripheral to the centre of cities—[Interruption.] does Government support actually do? How does it Let me finish, because this is an important point that help me to grow my business? Where do I go? We have affects my constituency, too. How do we ensure that heard today about 636 different initiatives from the those areas can really have change as well? For example, Government. The situation is far too complex. It is Newcastle will help to drive forward the north-east difficult to navigate and it changes far too often. All economy, and Middlesbrough, to some extent, will drive Governments are guilty of rebranding, of initiative-itis, forward the north-east economy when it comes to Teesside. of wanting to announce something. I can understand In Hartlepool, we have fantastic areas of specialism in that, but we have to recognise that we need continuity, respect of high-value manufacturing. The idea that we stability and long-termism in business policy to ensure could be left behind is absolutely ridiculous, and other that businesses know where to go, how they access areas—other towns and rural villages—will have the support of different types and how they make sure that same approach. Will the Minister respond to that? support grows and thrives. Given the city region model, how do we ensure that Let me put my party-political hat on now. The places such as Rochdale, Hartlepool and areas in the Government are particularly bad at tinkering. We have Peak district are not left behind? That is very important. heard about the abolition of the regional development I want to mention a number of other things briefly in agencies early on in this Parliament, and a number of the time I have available. The hon. Member for Macclesfield reasons were given for that abolition. Chiefly, one of and other hon. Members have mentioned connectivity, them seemed to be, “The last lot brought them in. We which is a really pressing point for the north. A couple have to get rid of them to effect change.” I do not think of years ago, a report by the Institute for Public Policy that is right, and it has been detrimental to the northern Research showed that the gap in spending on transport economy. There could be some great debate here, but I in particular is very acute. On a per-capita basis, the think it is recognised that the three RDAs of the north— spend in London is 500 times as much as for the One North East, Yorkshire Forward and the Northwest north-east, 20 times as much as for the north-west and Regional Development Agency—worked pretty effectively over 16 times as much as in Yorkshire and the Humber. in trying to regenerate their areas and provide economic If we are talking about the link between city regions development and support to businesses in the regions. and other outlying areas, connectivity—being able to The setting-up of their replacements—the LEPs—took get to the jobs and businesses of the future—is absolutely a couple of years, and businesses were uncertain about crucial. How will the Minister deal with that? 317WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 318WH

[Mr Iain Wright] having grown up on Teesside, as I did, that there was an accurate perception during all the years of the 1970s My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon and into the ’80s that the strength of the Tees valley was Danczuk) mentioned business rates, which is a really often under the shadow of Newcastle, to the north. One important matter that disproportionately affects businesses of the great successes in the north-east has been the in the north. The situation needs to change. We welcome revival of the identity of the Tees valley through its very the Chancellor’s review of business rates and hope that successful LEP, which is making great progress. recommendations will be brought forward. I hope that I join colleagues in congratulating my hon. Friend the Minister, in turn, will support what the Labour the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) on giving party has been doing in calling for a cut to business us the opportunity to have the debate, on his excellent rates in 2015 and a freeze on them in 2016 to ensure that speech and on his very kind words to me at the beginning. there is an absolute requirement and a recognition that business rates are a major cost for businesses and detracting The Government are committed to the creation of a from further growth and prosperity. northern powerhouse, and we have had an expression of Access to finance was also mentioned and the attitude the northern powerhouse in the number of Members at of the banks when it came to my hon. Friend. There is this debate: 17 Conservative Members with constituencies still a problem with access to finance, in having that or affiliations with the north. I speak as a proud northerner, transactional, often confrontational relationship between born and bred in Middlesbrough. I sometimes carry a bank and a business. Is the British Business Bank doing around with me a medallion that was struck in 1881 to as much as it should? Do we have proper local knowledge commemorate the unveiling of a statue in Middlesbrough, to ensure that regional banks have the understanding erected by public subscription, to the first mayor of and recognition of what a local economy requires? That Middlesbrough and first Member of Parliament for is very important, and I hope that the Minister will have Middlesbrough. He was an industrialist, an ironmaster; time to say something about how we ensure that we Bolckow was his name. have responsive banking systems and financial arrangements The reason why I often refer, as the hon. Member for in local areas. Hartlepool did, to those times is that, as he will agree, I want to mention some hon. Members’ favourite there was no distinction then between industrial leadership subject—Europe. Is the Minister concerned about— and local leadership. There was an expectation that the people who would drive forward the local economy Mr Nigel Evans: Did we mention it? through their businesses would give of themselves, their time and their investments in helping to make those Mr Wright: No, but it is hon. Members’ interest in places successful. I hope that we will get back to the certain areas. There is a concern that because the Commission time when mayors of Middlesbrough and other great does not recognise the governance arrangements of towns and cities around the country had statues erected LEPs, millions of pounds are being lost or certainly to them by public subscription to thank them for their delayed on their way to the regions. My own area of the achievements. Certainly, that is the direction in which north-east has the potential to be delayed to the tune of we are going; we need to give more power to the north. £724 million, and for the north-west the figure is £895 million. What are the elements of what we need to do? One element is raising the long-term growth rate of the Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I ask Mr Wright constituencies and communities in the north. As the to let the Minister respond. hon. Gentleman and many other hon. Members said, the north drove the British economy at various times in Mr Wright: Will the Minister respond— our history. There is no reason why its growth rate should be below the national average. Our ambition Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. must be to have it pulling the national average up, rather than being below it. Mr Wright: And does he appreciate that the north is a fantastic place that has the potential to grow further? We need to continue the progress on raising the employment rate. We need to continue to address the Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. need for investment in long-term transport infrastructure. One thing that has excited colleagues and constituents and representatives of all parties across the north is the 3.50 pm vision for transport improvements, whether through the The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg HS2 or HS3 connections that are being made. Clark): It is a great pleasure to serve under your The north-west is already, as my hon. Friend the chairmanship, Mrs Main, in what has been an excellent Member for Macclesfield said, a global centre for debate. Some of the remarks made by the hon. Member outstanding scientific innovation. My hon. Friend the for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) were excellent, but some Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) made that point were not. Let me pick up the point about RDAs. My as well. It is also, as many hon. Members mentioned, a hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David good place to live in, to work in and to visit. We need to Mowat) was right. The RDAs were not abolished because celebrate and build on the quality of life in the north. they were not invented by us; they were abolished because they did not work. During their existence, the We need to ensure that the voices of people in the north’s share—I am talking about the north-east, the north acquire greater power and influence. It seems to north-west and the administrative region of Yorkshire me that the influence and the ability that Teesside has, and the Humber—shrank as a percentage of the national and Middlesbrough in particular, to shape its own economy. The hon. Member for Hartlepool will know, destiny was rather greater when decisions were made on 319WH Businesses (North of England)14 JANUARY 2015 Businesses (North of England) 320WH the banks of the River Tees than when they came to be Mr Wright: And still do. made on the banks of the Thames. I think that we need to revive that tradition. Greg Clark: Indeed. That just underlines the point Let me deal with some of the points that hon. Members that no two places are alike. They may be close made. Both Cheshire Members referred to the Square geographically, but they have different histories, different Kilometre Array. We are very proud of this asset. The traditions, often different industries and different politics. heritage of Jodrell Bank in being at the leading edge of If we try to subsume them all into an approach that gets science is very important to us. I am due to meet the them to fit in with a central Government view of how review panel for the SKA next month, and I will signal the world should be, we will suppress the very individuality our wholehearted commitment to the project and to and difference that gives them their energy and creative promoting Jodrell Bank as the rightful location for the spark, so one thing that we have tried to do—with SKA’s headquarters. I will take up with my ministerial success, I think—is to work through, first, the city deals colleagues the points made by my hon. Friend the and then the growth deals, and we have replaced the Member for Congleton. regional development agencies, in which great cities In the few minutes that I have in which to speak, I such as Manchester and Liverpool lost their identity, as want to pay tribute to the leadership that my hon. did counties such as Cumbria and Lancashire. By taking Friend the Member for Macclesfield has given on the the RDAs away and giving voice to representatives of Alderley Park taskforce, which has been a phenomenal real places rather than administratively concocted places, success. He will, I know, share the credit with the many we have begun to empower those places and, in addition, local leaders, both in industry and in the local authority, the various deals that we have done have all been who have worked together in just the way that he has proposed and made in the areas that they represent, and described to create a prospering park with a great they gather strength from that. future. I am informed that, to date, the BioHub has This is the beginning of a process that will continue. attracted more than 70 biopharmaceutical companies, My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew employing 281 staff. It is home to businesses that have Stephenson) has displayed his tenacity in the number of been supported by some of the initiatives that many Ministers he has lured to his constituency. I need to hon. Members have mentioned today. I place on the declare in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests record my thanks to my hon. Friend and to all the other that a pint of Pride of Pendle might be waiting for me members of the Alderley Park taskforce for their efforts when I make— in building on this opportunity. The common denominator of the remarks that have Andrew Stephenson: Several. been made by hon. Members from right across the area —the 17 Conservative colleagues and our two Labour Greg Clark: Indeed. I look forward to visiting my colleagues, who made important contributions, is that— hon. Friend. His tenacity and commitment to his constituency are shared by Members right across the Mr Iain Wright: What about the Lib Dems? Chamber. I have set out what we are trying to do. I think that it does enjoy some cross-party consensus, Greg Clark: Well, at least two parties were represented and that is all to the good. The relationships between here. We need to recognise that the prosperity of the authorities have crossed party lines, and we have enjoyed country requires every part of the country to be firing in this debate a fair degree of political consensus. I hope on all cylinders. That is the common denominator of all that we will continue to do so. the points that were made. I end by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member Local rivalries were on display in some of the remarks. for Macclesfield on bringing us together to affirm, in Some rivalries are more friendly than others. I dare say ringing tones, our commitment to continuing the revival that Middlesbrough and Hartlepool have also had their of the north that is proceeding apace under this moments over the years. Government. 321WH 14 JANUARY 2015 Shrewsbury Railway Station 322WH

Shrewsbury Railway Station for redevelopment as office and residential accommodation, and I am sure that those investors will be very interested to know how Network Rail will manage that site next to 4pm the station. We want an ever safer and cleaner environment Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): in this important site in Shrewsbury town centre. We had the great honour and pleasure of hosting my I also want to raise with the Minister the Dana hon. Friend the Minister in Shrewsbury not so long ago. bridge, which is a large bridge that straddles Shrewsbury As she knows, the beautiful, historic nature of our town station. I highlighted it to the Secretary of State when has ensured that tourism is an extremely important he came to Shrewsbury station a few weeks ago for the contributor to our local economy. Shrewsbury has more launch of the train service from Shrewsbury to London. listed buildings than any other town in England, so The bridge is an historic structure, primarily made of tourism is very important for us. wood, but all the wood is crumbling and falling apart, Many people come to our town by rail. Shrewsbury and it gives a very bad impression. I have tweeted the station was built in 1848 and was designated a grade II Minister about it and sent her photographs of the listed building in 1969. When I was elected to office in bridge, which looks dirty and dilapidated. I hope her 2005, the station had slightly more than 1.3 million officials have managed to look at the state of it. We users a year. Last year, that figure had exceeded 1.8 million, walked along the bridge, which was very dirty and not which represents a 39% increase over the past nine properly lit. I have been told that it is the responsibility years. Shrewsbury station is an important one. It caters of Network Rail to maintain the bridge and ensure that to and accommodates ever larger numbers of users, it is properly looked after and modernised. which we should celebrate and be proud of. In parts of the station—bear in mind that it is a grade Recently, we secured a direct train service from II listed building—including the sidings, there are huge Shrewsbury to London, and I want to take this opportunity amounts of what I would term industrial waste. Redundant to thank the Minister and her Department. After a metal structures just sit there, rusting away, in addition huge number of meetings with the Office of the Rail to copious quantities of weeds and litter. I particularly Regulator, Network Rail, Virgin Trains and the Department object to the metal and the industrial waste, which just for Transport, we finally secured that link connecting stands in the yards, clearly visible to members of the Shrewsbury to London. We have a service twice a day, public who are visiting Shrewsbury for the first time. and just one service on Sunday. I use it, and I am happy Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales are meant to to report to the Minister that it is very popular and work collaboratively to ensure that the station is well really taking off. If I am re-elected in May, however, I looked after. The manager told me that the toilets are in will be pressing her and Virgin Trains to try to increase need of major redevelopment, and he assured me that the frequency of that important service, which links us Arriva Trains Wales has a programme in place to modernise up with our capital city. If we can attract more national and update them. Another issue, which must affect and international tourists from our capital city to railway stations all over the country, is the netting to Shropshire, it can only be good for our local economy. stop birds getting into the eaves of the buildings. I do Last week, I accompanied a senior officer from not know whether anyone has yet come up with a credible Shropshire council—Tim Sneddon, who does an excellent solution to the problem, but we need to do something. job—around the station, so that I could become better The nets always get broken, the birds get trapped and acquainted with the exact demarcation of the responsibility the result is a huge amount of dirt and waste. I hope for its maintenance. Some parts of the station are the Arriva and Network Rail will look at that. responsibility of the unitary authority, others of Network Arriva Trains Wales has done some good work at the Rail and others of Arriva Trains Wales. I also had the station. A new modern, clean and efficient ticket office opportunity to meet the manager of the station from has been built, and a new waiting room has been Arriva Trains Wales. created. I have called for those things for many years, I want to highlight a couple of issues that I saw at and I am pleased to announce to the Minister that those first hand, because my constituents have repeatedly brand new facilities have gone down extremely well with raised them with me. One of the most important things my constituents. I saw was the Dana steps, about which I will write How are companies such as Arriva Trains Wales and formally to Network Rail, because it is responsible for Network Rail incentivised to go the extra mile to maintain, the area. Next to the station is a large expanse of land upgrade and modernise train stations across the country? that is, essentially, scrubland, which is overgrown and Are we incentivising them in innovative ways to go the contains many bushes, and there are some steps leading extra mile, to compete and to learn from other European down to the River Severn. Constituents have repeatedly Union countries? How are they incentivised to go the raised concerns about the fact that the Dana steps are extra mile to show the Minister that they are serious not safe late at night, because the lighting is insufficient about upgrading and modernising our stations? What and there are no CCTV cameras. Constituents tell me steps is she taking to bring together Network Rail and that they feel vulnerable and unsafe walking in that part Arriva Trains Wales, and their equivalents in other of the station towards the river using the Dana steps. parts of the country? How is the Department bringing The land is festooned with rubbish, litter and broken together different operators to ensure an ongoing glass, and it has all sorts of other problems. It needs to collaborative approach to managing and looking after be properly maintained by Network Rail. It should be stations? I am sure the Minister will accept that, following cleared out and perhaps put to good use. As things the privatisation of the rail network, quite a few partners stand, I am not satisfied with Network Rail’s management are now involved in maintaining a railway station. It is of that plot of land. Interestingly, the Victorian Dana important that she and her Department do everything prison on that site has been sold to the Osborne group possible to incentivise them and ensure that they are 323WH Shrewsbury Railway Station14 JANUARY 2015 Shrewsbury Railway Station 324WH doing everything possible to invest—that is the critical Stations can and should be the heart of local communities, word—in those important buildings that, ultimately, and my hon. Friend made a valid case, focusing on all should be paying for themselves. the small details that are perhaps overlooked when one What penalties is she putting in place where companies is designing an engineering plan for the network, but such as Arriva Trains Wales and Network Rail do not that are so vital to people who use the station. He is invest sufficiently in train stations and do not meet the right about the importance of maintaining and upgrading expectations of constituents and Members of Parliament? Shrewsbury railway station in his constituency. I have been assured that a modernisation plan for the I will step through some of my hon. Friend’s concerns station has been put in place, and some people say to and try to address them directly. First, he asked who has me, “Why are you raising this issue now when they are responsibility for and takes pride in the station. I assure telling you that they have plans?” I am raising the issue him that Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales have because I have been told that the station is about to be joint responsibility, and they both feel a responsibility upgraded and modernised for the past six or seven to passengers. I clarify that Arriva Trains Wales is the years. It has got to the point where I am no longer leaseholder for the station and, under the terms of the prepared to accept that there will be jam tomorrow or lease arrangement, is responsible for all works that do that improvements will start at the end of the year. Will not require an operational shutdown at the station to be the Minister assure me on the record that her Department delivered. Arriva Trains Wales is responsible for cleanliness, and her officials are in discussions with both companies decorating and the improvements to which he referred, and have had concrete assurances about this important whereas Network Rail is responsible for things such as station? I am meeting Arriva Trains Wales and Network changes to the canopies and broader upgrades. It is Rail at the station in February, and I will spend a important that both companies are held to account for morning showing them around every aspect of the delivering those improvements and upgrades. I will go station, from the toilets to the side yard where all the on to outline the planned improvements and who is rubbish is currently held. I will write to the Minister and taking responsibility for them. keep her informed of how those discussions go. My hon. Friend asked about cleanliness and organisation. Lastly—this is a small issue, but it is an issue of pride Arriva Trains Wales has confirmed that a cleaning team —we are all proud of our national flag. Some years ago is based at the station and operates every day. Station I had to write to Arriva Trains Wales to complain about duty managers encourage their staff to report anything the size of the Union Jack above the station. The flag that is broken or faulty. I do not know whether this is in was very small, tatty and ripped. It was falling apart. order, but I commend the team within the Department Arriva Trains Wales replaced the flag, but it is happening for Transport that has responsibility for this. One of my again. The flag is once again ripped, tatty and dirty. team, Mr Ochei, took it upon himself to go up to the What sort of impression does it give to visitors to our station to investigate clearly and carefully some of the railway station if we cannot even get the simple things concerns. He illustrated the situation to me with clear right? Some people may accuse me of being a bit petty photographs of the problems that my hon. Friend raises, in mentioning the appearance of the national flag above such as the semi-industrial units, litter and vegetation. the railway station, but it should not have to be for the Following this debate, I will write to Arriva Trains Member of Parliament to keep chivvying the companies Wales and Network Rail, citing the photographic evidence, about such things; the companies should take pride in to say, “Between you, you are responsible. I hope this their stations, and they should be doing everything can be raised at my hon. Friend’s meeting in February, possible to ensure that their customers—that is what it but who is going to do this and by when?” ultimately boils down to—are happy, feel safe and have a good experience of using Shrewsbury railway station. Daniel Kawczynski: I thank the Minister for the sterling work of her officials. It is testimony to the way she runs 4.14 pm the Department and to the enthusiasm of her officials that they have taken the time and effort to go to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Shrewsbury station. That is a great credit to her officials, (Claire Perry): It is a pleasure to serve under your whom I would like to thank. chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this important debate on the Claire Perry: I thank my hon. Friend for thanking me maintenance and upgrading of Shrewsbury railway station. and my officials. He will agree that a photograph tells a He has been an assiduous campaigner for better services thousand words. The photographs were extremely helpful. from the station. We are delighted to have finally been It is clear from my team’s visit that the station officials able to provide a vital direct link to Shrewsbury station take pride in their station and are aware of the concerns. via Virgin train services after many years of lobbying We were told again, and it has been reaffirmed, that from him and his colleagues. The link is far more Arriva Trains Wales and Network Rail have a positive convenient than changing trains halfway down to London, and proactive working relationship in improving, identifying and I hope his constituents will recognise the vital role and fixing repairs, and they are delighted to have secured he played in bringing those services to his local station. a meeting with my hon. Friend. I hope the meeting will I am delighted to hear that he is using the services and cover the concerns and issues such as the Dana steps that they are well used. If it is not tempting fate, I hope and the Dana passage. he will be able to lobby me on further improvements to My hon. Friend raised an important question about the service post-May. investment and the incentives for train operating companies Everyone is aware of the huge benefits that good to improve stations. Under the terms of their franchise, railway services and, importantly, stations bring to the train operating companies have specific obligations against passengers, businesses and communities that we represent. their leasehold requirements to maintain, upgrade and 325WH Shrewsbury Railway Station14 JANUARY 2015 Shrewsbury Railway Station 326WH

[Claire Perry] Part of the problem, as I have discovered in my few months in the job, is that many parts of the network incentivise their stations. It is important always to be have not been touched in decades—sometimes in hundreds prepared to revisit such arrangements. If improvements of years. Although an unprecedented amount of money are required, or if specific changes are needed, we are is being spent, problems are sometimes uncovered in the very happy to deal with them. Some £2 million of process. It is absolutely right that those symptoms of investment has been spent on the station over the past decades of underinvestment are now being addressed, nine years, but I am sure that, like me, he is delighted but we must ensure that they are dealt with quickly that as much again is being spent over the current and appropriately for passengers. I will write to Arriva five-year capital period, including on the refurbishment Trains Wales and Network Rail after the debate to ask of the existing toilets and the introduction of a disability for clarity about the completion dates for those works, toilet—I am told that work is ongoing and should be and I will mention the Dana steps and the Dana bridge. finished soon. Money is also being spent on refurbishing My hon. Friend made an important point about the station canopies, which he said are in rather poor safety and antisocial behaviour, about which I am order, decorating the external platform areas and resurfacing particularly concerned. I am disappointed to hear that the station car park. Outside the terms of the lease, that tract of land is proving a draw for antisocial although it is appropriate that we discuss it, the Dana elements in the community. I have visited the town, and footbridge refurbishment has been costed at £800,000, it is the most wonderful place. It should be visited by and it should be delivered in 2015-16. I hope that tourists, not people determined to commit crime. Neither between the two of us, we can secure delivery dates for Network Rail nor Arriva Trains Wales have received those improvements so my hon. Friend can reassure his complaints about antisocial behaviour, although that is constituents about when they will happen. not to say that it is not happening. We have been alerted It is important to acknowledge that money has been to the problem, and Network Rail will continue to spent on a brand spanking new waiting room, as my engage with the local council and, crucially, the British hon. Friend said—I have pictures of it—and a new ticket Transport police, who have a long history of working hall. Those are important improvements. The Access with local police forces, to deal with antisocial behaviour for All programme is delivering a lift on platform 3, in and around stations. Network Rail also informed me which is important for passengers who suffer from that it is investigating improvements to toilets on the disabilities. We are delighted that Shrewsbury is now a platforms and to the passenger subway. step-free station. It also has additional help points and An additional £2 million is being spent on improvements CCTV cameras to assist with safety issues. at Shrewsbury station. Issues such as the canopy and A lot of improvement is going on, and there is more the netting will be addressed, and the Dana footbridge to come. There is clear accountability, but we are always will certainly be dealt with. Passengers will perhaps willing to do more and listen to hon. Members who most notice that Arriva Trains Wales has redecorated have concerns about their stations. I hate to use this all the platforms in 2015-16. phrase, but we are getting there with some parts of the I second my hon. Friend’s point about flying the railways. We are benefiting from an unprecedented level Union flag. I am proud to be introducing Union flags of investment in the trains, the stations and the track. on our driving licences, and it is right that all parts of We are prepared to continue to look at the contractual our great country share pride in the flag. I urge him to relationship between Network Rail, the regulator and raise that issue at his meeting and suggest that a brand the operators, and will continue to improve it. We will spanking new flag be flown at the station in time for the also look at the penalties, which my hon. Friend mentioned. tourist season this summer. The ultimate penalty is to be penalised under the franchise. In conclusion, this is an exciting time for the railways. I am not aware that a situation has ever been so serious The Government’s ambition to invest in the railway that that has happened, but we will look at the penalties network is unprecedented. Improvements are being to ensure we have the right regime. In my experience, if delivered, and there are more to come. If anyone has a there is an assiduous MP, a committed Network Rail sense that there is any complacency about the disruption local management team and a strong station team, that passengers are suffering across all parts of the improvements can be ironed out and delivered, but it is network as a result of the upgrade works, they should important that we continue to focus on those issues. be in no doubt that the Department takes it incredibly My hon. Friend asked whether the work is being seriously. Unless passengers see the benefits and feel delivered on time. I can confirm that two areas have that the investment is being made for them, the money been delayed: the toilets and the canopy works. All is frankly not being well spent. We are moving not other works have gone as planned and have been completed boxes, but people. on time. There is, unfortunately, a large hole on platform I hope my hon. Friend has a productive meeting in 3, which is not a danger to passengers, although it is February. I look forward to receiving his feedback, and unsightly. It is a Network Rail responsibility. It is due to I hope he manages to persuade Arriva Trains Wales to larger engineering issues coming to light once the initial fly the Union flag with pride. works were started. It would be helpful to focus on getting it fixed as soon as possible. Scaffolding is still in place on the river bridge due to engineering issues that 4.25 pm Network Rail uncovered. Sitting suspended. 327WH 14 JANUARY 2015 Rohingya Community (Burma) 328WH

Rohingya Community (Burma) Rohingya are virtually non-existent; and often the Rohingya are banned from leaving the camps by security services. 4.29 pm Those Rohingya who leave those camps illegally often travel to Thailand and Malaysia, but they often end up Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): It is a as the victims of human traffickers. The Arakan Project pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Main, not least found that in November alone, nearly 12,000 Rohingyas because I know that you take a particular interest in fled Rakhine state. Since 2012, a total of around 80,000 matters affecting the part of the world on which I am Rohingyas have fled Burma by boat. about to speak through your work with the all-party The picture remains depressing for that part of the parliamentary group on Bangladesh. I am grateful for world. I will cite a few more statistics that I came across the opportunity to put some issues on the record. In while doing my research for this debate. Today, 70% of September 2012, I introduced a very good debate in this the Rohingya still have no access to safe water or Chamber, to which the Minister responded. I wanted sanitation services; in some Rohingya districts, there is this opportunity to invite the Minister to update the just one doctor per 160,000 people; only 2% of Rohingya House on the progress made by the Foreign Office, and women give birth in a hospital; and 44% of the population to reiterate some of the points I made previously and of Rakhine state live below the poverty line, which is make some new ones. almost 20% higher than the average figure in most parts Back in September 2012, I said: of Burma. “This is an issue of human rights, justice and desperate humanitarian need, to which we must respond.”—[Official Report, Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Does my 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 1WH.] hon. Friend agree that what he is saying tallies with In the two and a half years since that debate, I would what Tomás Ojea Quintana of the UN said in April last have hoped to have seen significant progress. Sadly, I do year? He said that not believe that we have seen such progress. As I am “the deprivation of health care is deliberately targeting the Rohingya sure the Minister will recall, the debate in 2012 came on population, and…the increasingly permanent segregation of that the back of deeply ugly sectarian violence that had population is taking place”, broken out between the Buddhist Rakhine community— and that “human rights violations are connected to discriminatory and 4.30 pm persecutory policies against the Rohingya Muslim population” Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. by the Burmese Government. On resuming— Jonathan Ashworth: My hon. Friend puts it well. I 4.40 pm know that she has spoken out on these issues in the past Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): The hon. Member for and I am pleased that she has had the chance to put her Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) is in his position views on the record again. and the Minister has also returned from the Division, I have spoken to aid agencies that work in this part of so we will go ahead with the debate, which will now the world. Very few of them want to be named for fear finish at five minutes past 10—10 minutes past 5. Oh of what that would mean for the work they do, but they dear, it has been a long day. conclude that there is a systematic approach to oppressing the Rohingya people. International organisations are Jonathan Ashworth: As I was saying, when I last forced to sign a memorandum of understanding with secured a debate on this subject in Westminster Hall in the Burmese Government, which is more restrictive in September 2012, it was on the back of ugly sectarian that part of the world than in many other parts. The violence in Rakhine between the Buddhist community Burmese Government often use “security concerns” to and the Muslim Rohingya people. At that time, tens of block humanitarian access to certain places. Foreign thousands of the Rohingya community were being staff working for aid agencies need special visas to displaced. In Sittwe, for example, the Rohingya people enter Burma and only a limited number of visas are were driven out of their homes, and there were reports given. Indeed, aid workers are often denied visas. Travel at the time of mobs burning down houses. Indeed, authorisations are needed for Burmese humanitarian various non-governmental organisations, such as Human staff to go to remote areas. Rights Watch, reported that the police and other In addition, staff working for international organisations, paramilitary forces had opened fire with live ammunition particularly Rohingya staff, face additional travel restrictions, on members of the Rohingya community. which have become much stricter since 2012. Rohingya I am sure that Members will recall that the tensions at humanitarian aid workers working for organisations, that time were exacerbated by the suggestion by the including the UN, have been subject to arbitrary arrest Burmese President at the height of the crisis about and detention. Overall, obtaining access for humanitarian handing over the Rohingya community to the UN high purposes has become more difficult, and more restrictions commissioner for refugees until they could be resettled have been put in place since 2012. Aid organisations, in some third country. including Médecins Sans Frontières, have faced threats As I remember, in that earlier debate all Members of expulsion or have effectively been expelled permanently who contributed spoke out against the Burmese regime from Rakhine state. and we all would have hoped for some progress. However, today in Rakhine there are still 140,000 Rohingya living Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): As one who in squalid temporary camps, which are routinely described campaigned for a long time when the Burmese elected by agencies as being among the worst refugee camps in politicians were in jail, does my hon. Friend agree with the world. Basic necessities such as food, clean water Aung San Suu Kyi when she suggests that the reforms in and health care are scarce; job opportunities for the Burma have stalled during the last two years? It is extremely 329WH Rohingya Community (Burma)14 JANUARY 2015 Rohingya Community (Burma) 330WH

[Ann Clwyd] Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Is this situation not compounded and made far worse by the fact that bad that the Rohingya in particular seem to be targeted. the Rohingya are regarded as stateless not only within Life is being made as awful as possible for them, with Myanmar-Burma, but within Bangladesh? There is nowhere 100,000 of them having gone, including 10,000 in the for these people to go. last two weeks. What is going on? Jonathan Ashworth: The hon. Gentleman makes a Jonathan Ashworth: I am grateful to my right hon. very good point; I know that he has spoken out many Friend for that intervention; she is absolutely right, as is times on this issue. The focus of this debate is indeed on Aung San Suu Kyi. As an aside, I say to my right hon. Burma-Myanmar, but there are questions for the Friend that I am delighted that she is standing again at Bangladeshi regime as well; perhaps the Minister could the next election, because she is an eloquent and persuasive touch on Bangladesh when he responds. voice on matters of international human rights. I am sure that many hon. Members welcomed the The Burmese Government will often deny responsibility United Nations General Assembly’s adoption of a non- and claim that much of the anti-Rohingya sentiment binding resolution in December, which urged the Burmese exists at a local level. But of course we all know, as has Government to grant Rohingyas full citizenship and been discussed in great detail in previous debates, that equal access to services. The UN also called for an the flames of anti-Rohingya sentiment are very much office of the UN United Nations High Commissioner fanned by the denial of Burmese citizenship to them. A for Human Rights to be opened in Burma without delay. nasty, bigoted piece of legislation—the 1982 citizenship Although I especially welcome that move by the UN, I law—stripped Rohingya Muslims of their legitimacy in am deeply disappointed that the Burmese Government the country and officially declared them foreigners. In still refuse, despite that UN resolution, even to acknowledge effect, they ceased to exist legally and were denied any the Rohingya as an ethnic group and criticise the UN form of citizenship. for using the term “Rohingya”. They have suggested I have been very much influenced on this issue by that reports of Muslim persecution are a “fabrication”. Benedict Rogers of the Christian Solidarity Worldwide I am sure that, because of international pressures, the network. He writes persuasively and passionately about Burmese Government have tried to make progress in these matters. I know that in his spare time he is a Rakhine state, but I do not accept that it is progress. Conservative activist, so the Conservatives would do The Rakhine state action plan was introduced last well to encourage him to join us all in this place; I hope September, to much fanfare in that part of the world. I have not ruined his chances by saying that. He writes However, looking into it, we see that it means that the that Rohingya can secure citizenship only if they register “the Rohingyas face restriction in almost every sphere of life. To themselves as Bengali, therefore implying they are illegal travel from one village to another, they are required to obtain immigrants from Bangladesh. As the hon. Member for permission from at least three local authorities...such permission Bradford East (Mr Ward) intimated, Bangladesh has can be difficult to obtain and often takes up to five days.” not exactly been helpful in this situation. Even if the He goes on to say that the Rohingya even need Rohingya conform to that Rakhine state action plan, in “permission to marry, and approval can take several years”. reality they are only receiving partial citizenship rights. He also says that It is unacceptable that Burma should not give the “Rohingya are not permitted to be employed as government Rohingya full citizenship, as the UN has called for. servants, either as teachers, nurses or in other public services”. The Minister said in the debate in September 2012—I In addition, those Rohingya who succeed in education know that he is committed to this cause: are often refused entry to higher education. Of course, “the UK has been and will continue to be one of the most active, it is the citizenship law that is fuelling much of this vocal members of the international community in raising concerns anti-Rohingya sentiment in Burma. I accept that there about the plight of the Rohingya community.”—[Official Report, is great debate about how long the Rohingya have been 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 20WH.] in this part of the world, but I think all of us can agree We were reassured by those words. In this debate, I want that they have been there for generations. to give the Minister the opportunity to update us on the work that he has done, and the work of the Foreign Office, Yasmin Qureshi: On the question of citizenship, does in the last few years. However, I want to put some my hon. Friend agree that the new rules are harsher concerns on the record. The Minister will be familiar than in 2010? Rohingya people were able to cast their with the concerns about citizenship and sectarian violence, vote at the last election, but they cannot do so now but I hope that he will respond to other issues as well. because of the new rules. Campaign groups, for example, have told me that there Jonathan Ashworth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend is a sense that British diplomats have begun to avoid for that intervention and she is absolutely right. If she using the term “Rohingya” in meetings with the Burmese will bear with me, I will touch on that issue when I refer Government. They feel that the Burmese Government to the Rakhine state action plan. are putting pressure on diplomats to stop using that I just wanted to put on the record that even though word. I would be grateful if the Minister commented on there is debate about how long the Rohingya people that. I did a quick trawl of Hansard; I may be wrong—I have been part of Burma, everyone can accept that they do not want to speak out of turn—but I cannot find, have been there for some generations; they have certainly for example, the new Foreign Secretary using the word. been there since Burma gained independence. Indeed, it The previous Foreign Secretary was very committed to was the first President of Burma who said that the plight of the Rohingya. As I say, I might have just “Muslims of Arakan certainly belong to the indigenous races missed it, but I would be grateful if the Minister commented of Burma. If they do not belong to the indigenous races, we also about whether we are getting pressure from the Burmese cannot be taken as an indigenous race”. Government to avoid using that word. 331WH Rohingya Community (Burma)14 JANUARY 2015 Rohingya Community (Burma) 332WH

Humanitarian access has been denied, or the regime commitment to progress and transition. We remain in has made it more difficult, deliberately, to get humanitarian close touch with all those involved and continue to assist aid and relief into that part of the world. I would be in any way we can. Of course, as we have said on many grateful if the Minister commented on that. Does he occasions, this path will be neither smooth, nor without agree that perhaps it is time for a UN-level initiative to challenges, nor indeed without setbacks. We have made help us get the humanitarian aid and relief that is so our concerns extremely clear on numerous occasions. desperately needed into that part of the world? However, I cannot agree with those who are wholly negative Human rights abuses remain. I would be interested to about the progress that has been made, or indeed with hear the Minister update us on his view, or the Foreign those who argue that no progress has been made at all. I Office’s view, on human rights abuses in Burma. believe it is naive in the extreme to think that this would have been an easy transition. Praise is due where significant I understand why we want to increase trade with change for the better has taken place. I can only pray in Burma; I am a great believer in increasing international aid what Yanghee Lee, the new UN special rapporteur trade. Leicester, the city I represent, trades with all parts on human rights in Burma, said: of the world. However, many people are deeply concerned that we are trying to increase trade with Burma, for “far-reaching reforms have dramatically transformed the political, understandable economic reasons, yet we still seem to economic, social and human rights landscape”. turn a blind eye to some of the human rights abuses. I That is not to say that we are in any way complacent. would be grateful for the Minister’s comment on that. That is why we established, last year, the cross-Government Burma unit, to better co-ordinate our work there, and I end with a piece of good news. Earlier this month, why we published, I believe for the first time ever, a the Pope appointed the first Cardinal in Burma, Cardinal- public paper, “UK Activities in Burma”, which sets out elect Bo. We were hoping that he would visit Westminster all that the Government are doing. in the next few weeks, but I think he has had to rearrange his visit, which we look forward to. One of Of course, I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns for the first things that Cardinal-elect Bo did on his the Rohingya. I use that term now and I shall continue appointment was to call for the citizenship of Rohingyas to use it as I always have done. Their plight remains one to be recognised. He argued that of the greatest challenges Burma faces. I have raised “true peace and real freedom hinge on respect for Burma’s ethnic this issue during my visits to Burma and I raised it with and religious diversity”. the Burmese Deputy Foreign Minister in June, with the I wholeheartedly agree. I am sure that the Minister Minister for Electric Power in July, and when the Burmese does, too, and I look forward to his response to the Minister for Immigration and the new Rakhine points I have put on the record. Chief Minister came to London in October. I have also met Rakhine community and religious leaders, hearing from them directly about the many issues they are 4.54 pm facing. Officials at the British embassy in Rangoon The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office remain in close contact with Rohingya representatives (Mr Hugo Swire): I am grateful to you, Mrs Main, for and international organisations. giving me so long to respond to the hon. Member for In addition to raising our concerns in private, we Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth): many hours, if comment in public. The Foreign and Commonwealth what you said originally was correct and we are not Office annual report on human rights, and its quarterly finishing until after 10 o’clock this evening. I shall try to updates, give a frank assessment of Burma’s human condense my remarks to ensure that we end a little bit rights performance, including in Rakhine. We were sooner than that. instrumental in pushing for the resolutions at the UN—we I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this definitely agree that the UN could take on a greater debate, as I congratulate other hon. Members across the leadership role here—comprehensively setting out our political divide for continuing to keep Burma firmly in concerns about the situation in Rakhine state, and calling the spotlight. This is the second debate on Burma on the Government of Burma to uphold international within the last two months, both sponsored by the hon. human rights standards. Gentleman, which shows how interested and concerned The hon. Gentleman asked me about access and the House is, particularly in a year so significant in that humanitarian aid. In parallel to all those moves, what country’s transition to democracy. we have been doing at the UN and our conversations As I said in the House on 19 November, I, too, take a with Ministers, we are helping to alleviate the dire close personal interest, having visited Rakhine state in situation on the ground. We are giving £12 million in 2012, including some camps to which the hon. Gentleman aid to Rakhine state to support much-needed shelter—some alluded, and Kachin state last year. I was the first western of the shelters I saw when I went there were woefully Minister to travel to the former and the first British inadequate and must be even worse now—food, water Minister to visit the latter since Burma’s independence. sanitation and hygiene programmes, and giving a further Since that time, my right hon. Friend the Minister of £4.5 million towards projects that support livelihoods. State, Department for International Development, visited The hon. Gentleman is right when he talks about the Rakhine in August. During that visit, he announced an problems that some of the non-governmental organisations increase in our development funding to Burma up to are facing, including access. I discussed Rakhine and £82 million in 2015-16. That underscores our commitment humanitarian access with the Burmese Minister for to Burma’s future. Immigration and the Rakhine Chief Minister in October As I have said, 2015 is a critical year for Burma. last year. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State, The elections in November will be followed closely by Department for International Development, specifically the international community. This will be a chance raised with them the difficulty of getting humanitarian for the current Burmese Government to show their assistance to displaced people in Rakhine. 333WH Rohingya Community (Burma)14 JANUARY 2015 Rohingya Community (Burma) 334WH

Yasmin Qureshi: The Minister said that he had been Let us be clear: the many challenges faced by all to some of the camps. The assistant secretary-general communities in Rakhine are deep-rooted, complex and for humanitarian affairs, Kyung-wha Kang, said: interrelated. We acknowledge that the Burmese Government “I witnessed a level of human suffering in IDP camps that I have begun to take steps to address those issues, including have personally never seen before…appalling conditions…wholly the appointment of the new Rakhine Chief Minister inadequate access to basic services including health, education, last year. water and sanitation.” In June, the Burmese Government began a pilot What has changed? citizenship verification process for those in Rakhine whose citizenship status has not been recognised. It was Mr Swire: As I said, I was the first western Minister conducted in a camp for internally displaced people. to travel to Rakhine, but that was in 2012. From my More than 1,200 applications were processed, with many conversations with my right hon. Friend the Minister of obtaining naturalised citizenship and some obtaining State, Department for International Development, who full citizenship, but that falls far short of what the was there in August, I do not imagine that the situation international community expected. We and others have has got better. If anything, it has got worse. I saw consistently stressed the need for a transparent, consistent inadequate shelter, lack of access to food and much and inclusive citizenship verification exercise that adheres worse things, in a sense, than that, including a real to international standards, and we will continue do so. feeling of fear. We insisted at the time that the Burmese That should include consultation with all communities Government should ensure that those people were properly in Rakhine. secured. They looked as if they were surrounded by the That having been said, we welcome the Burmese military, but that was to protect themselves. There was Government’s efforts to produce a comprehensive action also a feeling where new communities were being built plan for Rakhine. The hon. Member for Leicester South that they were away from their traditional communities, said he did not like some of the things in that action and that that was going to entrench segregation, which plan, but it has not, to the best of my knowledge, been is completely counter-productive in trying to bring both published yet. Only a draft has been seen, and we still communities together. hope the Burmese Government will amend it before the Beyond tackling immediate needs, we are supporting final version is printed. Burma’s transition to a stable, prosperous and democratic I made all those concerns clear to the new Burmese country that can play a positive role in the international Minister for Immigration and the Rakhine Chief Minister community. That is why human rights must remain at during their visit to London in October. As with the the heart of the British Government’s efforts to support citizen verification exercise, it is vital that all communities Burma down the path of reform it embarked on in within Rakhine are consulted over the action plan. Our 2011, why we will continue to be an honest and critical ambassador in Rangoon, along with our international friend to Burma, raising our concerns unapologetically, partners, has made those concerns clear to the Burmese and why we are helping to create the conditions for authorities. While welcoming the steps taken, we will credible elections in November this year. It is why we judge progress on action, not words. Many severe challenges support the peace process in Burma, moving negotiations remain and the humanitarian situation in particular towards a nationwide ceasefire agreement and a framework must be addressed urgently. for future political dialogue. We will continue to work closely with the Burmese Government, the opposition, I continue to update the House as best I can. On civil society, businesses and communities, and the military, 8 January, two letters written by me and dated 4 January to achieve tangible progress. were published on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website. One was on Burma’s political reforms, in Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Everyone which I refer, the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to acknowledges the superb work that the Foreign Office hear, to the rights of the Rohingya. The other was has done on the diplomatic front and to support a on sexual violence in Burma. The publication of both fledgling democracy, but I have three questions for the letters, in response to huge amounts of interest from Minister. Has he met with the Burmese Rohingya Members and their constituents, shows that we are not Organisation UK? What assessment has he made of the complacent. We take these things extremely seriously Rohingya not being counted in the census in Burma? and follow events in Burma extremely closely. Does he agree with some of the organisations that have To conclude, we know that a great deal remains to be said that crimes against humanity have been committed? done in Rakhine, and we will not let up in our calls for the human rights of all Burma’s people, not least the Mr Swire: Let me deal with the last question first. Rohingya, to be respected. We believe that the best way Some have talked about crimes against humanity and to achieve progress is to engage with all parties in Burma genocide and such things, but that is for international to help embed reform, and to encourage its transition courts to decide. To answer the hon. Lady’s second question, towards peaceful, democratic governance. I again thank we have made our views clear on the whole census the hon. Gentleman and all who have contributed to the process, the fact that some of the Rohingya were excluded debate for giving me this and the previous opportunity and the process of self-designation. We are extremely to set out the Government’s position. unhappy about the census. Her first question was about Question put and agreed to. whether I had met a group. I have met so many that I might have met it, but I do not want to mislead the House. In the interests of accuracy, I will write to her on 5.8 pm that subject, if I may. Sitting adjourned. 25WS Written Statements14 JANUARY 2015 Written Statements 26WS

Written Statements War Pensions Rates Rates Rates (£) (£) Wednesday 14 January 2015 (Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) 2014 2015

other ranks (weekly amount) 176.10 178.20

DEFENCE Age allowances payable from age 65 40%-50% 11.80 11.95 Gifting of Equipment (Pakistan) over 50% but not over 70% 18.15 18.35 over 70% but not over 90% 25.80 26.10 over 90% 36.30 36.70 The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): I have today laid before the House a departmental minute Disablement gratuity (one-off payment) describing a package of surplus counter- improvised specified minor injury (min.) 1,123.00 1,136.00 explosive device (CIED) equipment which the UK intends specified minor injury (max.) 8,374.00 8,474.00 to gift to the Government of the Islamic Republic of 1-5% gratuity 2,800.00 2,834.00 Pakistan, at their request. Pakistan faces a severe threat from IED attacks 6-14% gratuity 6,225.00 6,300.00 perpetrated by terrorist groups, and has sought assistance from the UK in tackling this threat and developing the 15-19 gratuity 10,887.00 11,018.00 capabilities of its security forces. The UK is delivering a CIED programme to assist Pakistan in establishing a SUPPLEMENTARY ALLOWANCES multi-agency capability for tackling IEDs. This package will complement that programme. Unemployability Allowance Pakistan has a rapidly expanding CIED capability Personal 108.80 110.10 with close to 5,000 practitioners already trained. IEDs adult dependency increase 60.45 61.20 are being defeated across the provinces and lives are being saved. Pakistani battalions who benefited from increase for first child 14.05 14.20 UK support are now operating in counter-terrorism increase for subsequent children 16.55 16.75 operations in the North Waziristan agency and Pakistan’s Chief of General Staff has reported a noticeable reduction Invalidity Allowance in casualties: UK help is saving lives. higher rate 22.55 21.80 Developing counter-terrorism capability in Pakistan middle rate 14.00 14.20 supports UK objectives under the counter-terrorism lower rate 7.00 7.10 strategy (CONTEST), targets the problem at source and reduces the risk of a terrorist attack against that Constant Attendance Allowance nation or another, including the UK. exceptional rate 132.80 134.40 Subject to completion of the departmental minute intermediate rate 99.60 100.80 process, gifting is expected to be undertaken in the first full day rate 66.40 67.20 quarter of 2015. Part-day rate 33.20 33.60 [HCWS185]

Comforts Allowance War Pensions Scheme (Uprating) higher rate 28.60 28.90 lower rate 14.30 14.45 Mobility Supplement 63.40 64.15 The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry): Allowance for lowered standard of occupation 66.40 67.20 The new rates of pensions and allowances payable (maximum) under the war pensions scheme proposed from April Therapeutic Earnings Limit (annual rate) 5,252.00 5,408.00 2015 are set out in the tables below. The annual uprating of awards and allowances for 2015 will take place from Exceptionally Severe Disablement Allowance 66.40 67.20 the week beginning 6 April. Rates for 2015 are increasing Severe Disablement Occupational Allowance 33.20 33.60 by 1.2% in line with the September 2014 consumer Clothing Allowance (annual rate) 227.00 230.00 prices index. Education Allowance (annual rate) (max) 120.00 120.00 War Pensions Rates Rates Rates WIDOW(ER)S BENEFITS (£) (£) (Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) 2014 2015 Widow(er)s’—other ranks (basic with children) 133.55 135.15

WAR PENSIONS (weekly amount) Widow(er)—Officer higher rate both wars (basic 7,102.00 7,187.00 with children) (£ per annum) Disablement Pension (100% rates) Childless widow(er)s’ u-40 (other ranks) (weekly 31.99 32.37 officer (£ per annum) 9,189.00 9,298.00 amount) 27WS Written Statements14 JANUARY 2015 Written Statements 28WS

TRANSPORT War Pensions Rates Rates Rates (£) (£) (Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) 2014 2015 National Policy Statement (National Networks) Widow(er)—Officer lower rate both wars (£ 2,476.00 2,496.00 per annum) Supplementary Pension 89.34 90.41 The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John Hayes): On 13 January 2015 the House of Commons Age Allowance debated the national policy statement for national networks (a) age 65 to 69 15.20 15.40 which I laid for parliamentary approval on 17 December (b) age 70 to 79 29.25 29.60 2014. In the light of the satisfactory completion of that (c) age 80 and over 43.40 43.90 process I am pleased to inform the House that I am today designating it as a national policy statement Children’s Allowance under the provisions of section 5(4) of the Planning Act Increase for first child 20.95 21.20 2008. Increase for subsequent children 23.45 23.75 An effective planning system is crucial to the future timely development of the country’s national networks Orphan’s pension infrastructure. The designation of this policy statement Increase for first child 23.95 24.25 marks a significant step forward, clarifying what is Increase for subsequent children 26.25 26.55 required to enable the development of major schemes Unmarried dependant living as spouse (max) 131.20 132.80 that will alleviate congestion on our roads and overcrowding on our railways, while setting clear requirements on Rent Allowance (maximum) 50.30 50.90 safety, design quality and environmental protection. Adult orphan’s pension (maximum) 102.60 103.85 [HCWS187] [HCWS186] 13P Petitions14 JANUARY 2015 Petitions 14P

tax on households which are already struggling; further Petitions that seventy per cent of those affected are disabled; further that the revenue raised by this tax is a drop in Wednesday 14 January 2015 the ocean compared to the money lost through tax evasion and avoidance; further that those affected cannot afford to wait for a change of government; further that OBSERVATIONS lives are being ruined because parents are being ejected from the family home; and further that a postcard campaign in the Bolton West constituency on this issue resulted in 150 postcards being sent to the Member of JUSTICE Parliament for Bolton West. Deportation of Giovanni Di Stefano The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to revoke the bedroom The Petition of Giovanni Di Stefano, tax. Declares that the Petitioner is currently detained at And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Julie HMP Swaleside in Kent; further that the Petitioner was Hilling, Official Report, 9 December 2014; Vol. 589, born in Italy; and further that the Repatriation of c. 839.] Prisoners Act 1984 and the Council Framework Decision 2008/909/JHA are being breached as the Italian authorities [P001406] have agreed that the Petitioner can be deported to serve Observations from the Secretary of State for Work and the rest of his sentence in Italy, but the UK Government Pensions: have failed to comply with the timeframe for deportation. The Government believe that those on Housing Benefit The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of in the social rented sector should face the same choices Commons urges the Government to comply with the about where to live as those living in the private rented agreement and allow the Petitioner to be deported. sector. That is why we have removed the spare room And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Official Report, subsidy in the social rented sector by restricting the 16 December 2014; Vol. 589, c. 7P.] amount of Housing Benefit paid to working age social sector tenants who live in a property that is too large for [P001417] their needs. This is not a tax on individuals, but a Observations from the Secretary of State for Justice: reduction in the level of state support for housing costs Government policy is to enable foreign national prisoners for those who under occupy. to serve their sentences in their own country wherever The Housing Benefit bill must be brought under this is possible. To this end the United Kingdom is a control. It has increased by around 50% in real terms party to a number of international arrangements providing over a decade and in 2011/12 expenditure stood at for the transfer of prisoners. However, prisoners do not £23 billion. The Government cannot expect taxpayers have a right to transfer and in individual cases transfer to continue to underwrite people’s housing costs regardless will not be appropriate. Where transfer is not appropriate of the size of their accommodation. People receiving Ministers will refuse transfer. Housing Benefit who wish to remain in accommodation The Petitioner has sought transfer to a prison in Italy that is larger than their household requires need to fund under Council Framework Decision 2008/909/JHA, part of the cost themselves. We estimate that this measure otherwise known as the EU Prisoner Transfer Agreement. will result in significant savings of around £500 million However, in addition to his sentence of imprisonment a year during 2013/14 and 2014/15. of 14 years, Mr Di Stefano was made subject to a Confiscation Order for a sum of money in excess of The Government believe that it is neither affordable £2 million. Although a term of imprisonment of eight nor fair that there were around 820,000 spare rooms years and six months has been imposed in default, the being paid for by the taxpayer at a time when almost a debt remains outstanding. It is not appropriate that quarter of a million people were living in overcrowded Mr Di Stefano should be transferred to a prison in Italy accommodation and there were around 1.7 million on when he continues to owe such a significant sum to the social housing waiting lists in England alone, now down British taxpayer. to 1.4 million. In July 2014, both Mr Di Stefano and the Italian Over time the removal of the spare room subsidy will authorities were informed in writing that the transfer encourage more effective use of social housing stock request had been refused and the reasons for this. and a more strategic approach in both the allocation of property and, in the longer term, building programmes, ensuring more appropriately sized accommodation for WORK AND PENSIONS the demand. It is in the interests of both social landlords and tenants to achieve a better match between housing Under-occupancy penalty need and the size of accommodation provided. The Petition of residents of the Bolton West constituency, This measure is not about forcing people to move, Declares that the bedroom tax (otherwise known as although for some people the lower rent they have to the spare room subsidy) punishes the most vulnerable pay when they downsize may act as a work incentive people in society; further that many of those affected by and so improve their financial situation. Many households the bedroom tax will need to downsize but there are not are choosing to remain where they are and finding a enough properties available for them to do so; further way of making up the shortfall, in the same way that that in Bolton, there are only 13 available properties those living in properties that are too large in the private and 3,000 affected households; further that because rented sector do. There are other options available to many of those affected cannot downsize, it is simply a many of those affected by this policy. Some may decide 15P Petitions14 JANUARY 2015 Petitions 16P to move into work, some may move to smaller produced an online guide for social sector landlords accommodation and others may make up any shortfall “Making it Fit—a guide to preparing for the social from their existing income or savings. Figures show that sector size criteria”designed to help landlords in supporting around 22,000 households affected by the removal of tenants affected by this measure and to develop a strategic the spare room subsidy either downsized within the and operational approach tailored to their area. This social rented sector or moved to the private sector includes a section on supporting tenants to pay their between May 2013 and December 2013. rent. It is clearly in the interests of landlords to do all Since April 2013, the Government have significantly they can to support those tenants who are finding it increased funding for discretionary housing payments, difficult to adjust financially and to ensure they are providing £345 million to support vulnerable people fully aware of all the financial options available to affected by welfare reform. This includes £115 million them. We believe that proactive work by landlords, allocated specifically to support people affected by the together with the support which the Government have removal of the spare room subsidy. provided via discretionary housing payments, is ensuring We believe use of discretionary housing payments that most tenants affected, and particularly the most offers a more flexible and cost effective approach which vulnerable, are not at risk of homelessness. enables local authorities to provide additional support To date the courts have consistently upheld our position such as allowing extra time for those affected to find on this policy, finding that the Government have fulfilled suitable alternative accommodation as well as providing their public sector equality duties, the effects of the longer term support for vulnerable claimants, such as policy had been properly considered and that DHPs are those living in significantly adapted accommodation. an appropriate mitigation. The Government recognise that it will not always be possible for people to downsize. However we have worked The Government have no plans to change the removal with the Chartered Institute of Housing who have of the spare room subsidy. 7MC Ministerial Corrections14 JANUARY 2015 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

are now going up again. As I mentioned earlier, in the Ministerial Correction last quarter announced, recruiting was running at double the rate that it was in the equivalent period last year. Wednesday 14 January 2015 [Official Report, 12 January 2015, Vol. 590, c. 597.] Letter of correction from Mr Brazier: DEFENCE An error has been identified in the response I gave to Reservists the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) during Questions to the Secretary of State for Defence. The following is an extract from Questions to the Secretary of State for Defence on 12 January 2015. The correct response should have been: John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Last year, the number of Britain’s reservists rose by just 20. Given the millions thrown at the recruitment campaign, how is Mr Brazier: The tri-service numbers of reservists over that a triumph? the past 12 months were up 400. The fact is that after 15 years of continuous quarter-on-quarter decline, they Mr Brazier: The tri-service numbers of reservists over are now going up again. As I mentioned earlier, in the the past six months were up 400. The fact is that after last quarter announced, recruiting was running at double 15 years of continuous quarter-on-quarter decline, they the rate that it was in the equivalent period last year.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 14 January 2015

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 858 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 858 East Coast Main Line ...... 853 National Insurance Contributions ...... 852 SCOTLAND...... 849 Nuisance Calls ...... 857 Broadband and Mobile Phone Coverage...... 854 Shale Gas...... 849 Child Poverty ...... 851 Smith Commission...... 856 City Link ...... 856 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 14 January 2015

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 25WS TRANSPORT ...... 28WS Gifting of Equipment (Pakistan) ...... 25WS National Policy Statement (National Networks) .... 28WS War Pensions Scheme (Uprating)...... 25WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 14 January 2015

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 13P WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 13P Deportation of Giovanni Di Stefano ...... 13P Under-occupancy penalty ...... 13P MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 14 January 2015

Col. No. DEFENCE...... 7MC Reservists ...... 7MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 21 January 2015

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 14 January 2015

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 849] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Terrorist Attacks (Paris) [Col. 869] Statement—(Mrs May)

Voting (Civic Obligation) [Col. 888] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Winnick)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [12th allotted day] Energy Prices [Col. 891] Motion—(Caroline Flint)—on a Division, negatived Steel Industry [Col. 939] Motion—(Iain Wright)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 978]

Horticulture (Skills and Training) [Col. 979] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall House of Lords Reform [Col. 263WH] National Statistics [Col. 288WH] Shrewsbury Railway Station [Col. 321WH] Rohingya Community (Burma) [Col. 327WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 25WS]

Petitions [Col. 13P] Observations

Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http//www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]