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Analyses: "ULSTER WHAT NEXT"

Gerald Priestland

B.B.C. Radio 4

Thursday, October 30, 1975

The stately palace of Stormont stands on its autumnal hill outside Belfast waiting for a reason to be there. Inside the 78 delegates of the northern Irish people have been looking for a constitution, one which might restore to the Province a responsible and responsive Assembly.

Looking down on the Convention familiar faces help to pick out the Party fractions, f armer Harry West and his Official Unionists; preacher Ian Paisley and his Democrati c Unionists; William Craig and his now divided Vanguard; Brian Faulkner and his 5-man Unionist Party of Northern Ireland; Gerry Fitt and his Social Democratic and Labour Party. So far as such arithmetic is reliable there are some 43 delegates pledged to. maintain the Unionist supremacy and 35 amenable to some I . form of compromise with the Catholics.

As I folded myself into the Press Gallery the Leader of the moderate Alliance Party, 1,'ir Oliver Napier, was remarking that in almost six months the Convention had got nowhere. The Report of the United Ulster Unionist Coalition, the u.u.u.c., was going to Westminster as the majority opinion and it was only to be hoped that wnen it was rejected by London, as he expected, serious negotiation could begin at l ast . Mr. Napier observed, wisely it seemed to me, that the question was not how to construct the most effective form of government in some ideal society but how in Northern Ireland, with its deep historical divisions could they create institutions which all Ulstermen, Protestant and Catholic alike, could identify with and support. To :Mr David Bleakley too, the solitary delegate of the Northern Ireland Labour Party, the debates of the past six months seem just the f ir t r ound.

"MR. BLEAKLEY (N.I.L.P.): I think the politicians are at fault here but it wa s very much what we expected. They feel they have a commitment to their elect or ate and they must work through that commitment before anything can be done. I think t he other difficulty was that the northern Irish people were asked to do in five or s ix months what the whole British people have not been able to do in seven or ei ght

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md.red years of constitutional history: to produce a written constitution. I ;hink it was asking too much for northern Irish people in the present ·climate of opinion to, in six months, come up with a splendid formula and for that reason in a sense you needed five or six months to get to know one another, to go through tne preliminaries, to find out the techniques of dialogue, to find out - this great difficulty in Ulster - to find out how planter and Gael who really do not know one another, could get to know one another and get to trust one another. · I have been one of those people, Mr Priestland, who believe that until we get trust, structures will riot evolve."

MR. PRIESTLAND: And in that respect perhaps the six months of the Convention have not been a complete waste of time which is why in s~ite of defiant statements about sticking to principles it is important that nobody should regard the present situation as a full stop; rather its a semi-colan, for there are objectives t hat delegates on all sides share. They all want a regional parliament restored. They all want the scandal of hooliganism and extortion tackled. They all agree that nobody else really cares about Ulster and that nobody is going to solve their problems but themselves, Protestant and Catholic. Or as David Bleakley put it in much more discerning terms, planter and Gael. It seems to me that if one is looking for the root of the Irish problem it has to be found in the strategic, not even economic interests, of England. Interests which imposed on the native Irish who happened to be Catholic, Scots and English colonisers who happened to be Protestant. Over simple if you like but essential and, David Bleakley thinks, almost indestructable.

"MR. BLEAKLEY: There is a sense in which Ulster people both Protestant and Catholic alike, unlike English people, have very long memories indeed and it is often said that the English preserve their old buildings and the Irish preserve their old memories. Now that is exactly true of the north Irish.position. There are people here who still talk as though they themselves have been put off the land by the incoming planter. I know people in County Antrim who still hold bits of paper which ... they say gave them the right to possession of the land which was taken off them three or four hundred years ago. So there still is that sense of economic alienation. fut above all else of course the way in which the Ulster man and woman has been separated has underlined this division."

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both MR. PRIESTLAND: One thing about the religious identities which than mere ,ommunities have cultivated is that.. they are much harder to modify adjusting their political indentities. Politicians, thank goodness, are constantly with the policies in the light of changing circumstances, but who dares tinker eternal truth.

believes the Mr. John Hume of the Social, Democratic and Labour Party, or S.D.L.P., domination sole objective of the Unionist movement is to preserve the Protestant It may indeed and that loyalty to the British Crown and Parliament comes second. be dumped altogether if that is in the interests of the ascendency.

tell the electorate "MR JOHN HUME (S.D.L.P.): For 50 years we have heard them but once the here that union was the first principle of their political philosophy say: "Yes, but you other side of the union, the British Government and Parliament, and must share power", that threatens Protestant domination and ascendency Northern immediately you find a movement developing amongst them for an independent ascendency. So I Ireland which is the only final way it would seek and maintain that that they have done think that is the approach they have taken, I think it is tragic in Northern so because I think that the real protection of the Protestant population does not Ireland rests in their own numbers. There can be no solution which protect their rights and traditions and attitudes.

in its more Similarly the other tradition in Ireland has tended, particularly to try and put violent forms, to preach an 'ourselves a\~;. attitude as well and relation to the forward a~ - a romantic notion - of Ireland which bears no we could have a reality of life here and which tries to put forward a notion that of a million united Ireland and an independent Ireland which ignores the wishes same weakness and people who live in the northern part of it. That suffers from the on partnership until we get to the stage where both traditions in this island agree time by and agree that that partnership expressed in institutions will through and common concern and replace the prejudices and evolution develop understanding UI\J i=Ol?. TU-.J ~I-"'f Unfortunate t o the fears that have dominated our past, that is the only way forward. 11 most Irish people of either tradition it is not instant enough.

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says John Hume of the Catholic S.D.L.P., MR PRIESTLAND: ''Not instant enough" Provisional Sinn Fein to represent little which, incidentally, is claimed by the but that is based on the Provisional's more than one-third of the Catholic population, ovm survey.

must be the Rev Ian Paisley whose own Ulster~en I suppose the arch Protestant To most which high pressure revivalism, a technique Free Presbyterian Church is booming with has a peculiar appeal in Northern learnt in the United States and which Dr Paisley whites the style I have seen among the poor Ireland. It reminds me strikingly of with his dozen Democratic Unionists of Tennesee and the Carolinas. Dr Paisley in the Convention driving ~;g~~ the has become an increasingly dominant figure participation in government by the S.D.L.P. U.U.U.C. a resolution prohibiting any Republican. Mr Paisley strongly denies on the grounds that it was essentially that this is being anti-Catholic. ,

say that we want Protestant supremacy. PAISLEY (u.u.u.c.): It is wrong to "l,lR. that keep our country where it is. :But by We want Unionist supremacy in order to am not talking about pushing into the I am not talking about .jack boots, I supremacy must I believe all sections of the community ground any section of the community, has to be done by the votes of the have a fair crack of the whip, but that form the government. If they If they can win a majority they will electorate. I am will they not form the Opposition as cannot I ask the simple question, "Why prepared to do?" 11

the majority Unionist proposals for the MR PRIESTLAND: But what in fact are future government of the Province? based does not lend itself to any solution The Ulster position says the document The u.u.u.c. remains convinced that on some contrived constitutional formula. chosen wi~~ ~pe Prime Jylinister and Executive maximum stability will be maintaiA~d. groups favour a power-sharing or conventional parliamentary lines. Other on on to difference. The Unionist Report goes coalition system. This is the basic the Republic of Ireland, the so called describe any institutionalised link with the wJndow-dressing. It goes on to propose Irish Dimension)as undesirable - . ~~ of opposition, implying that if the development and strengthening a.nd powers to govern at least they might oppose Catholics have little hope of being elected This would be done by creating a committee more effectively and more profitably.

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paid chai.rmenships in govexnment and offering well ystem covering every department be a Bill of ~onstitutional Rights members. In addition there would to Opposition Citizens from Westminster and a Bill of Stormont against interference to p~otect tnis is abide by the law. Clearly all Duties, including the duty to Rights and clear, it is way, but as the S.D.L.P. has made fine if you see things the Unionist It is true that deeply partisan substitute for guaranteeing power-sharing. no Convention but the such by the Act setting up the term is no longer prescribed as that London expected of State made it equally clear White Paper and the Secretary minority than what is being proposed. something more generous to the

the Queen's · Reader in Political Science at I asked Dr Cornelius O'Leary, really learned so little • . University, if the Unionists had there is appear but it is possible that "DR CORNELIUS O'LEARY: So it would one leader, William Craig, v.ho shadow-boxing here. As you lmow a certain amount of be recently as May of this year to many years and who seems as was a hardliner for did That is to say that if the Convention to the policy of integration. committed groups here, well t.~en commanded the acceptance of both not set up institutions which the Convention and carry on with Government would just dissolve the :British Now links with the United Kingdom. Rule or perhaps strengthen the Direct for his is not viable. This is the reason William Craig has seen that this is towards disengagement the trend in British thinking conversion. He believes that Northern Ireland to have its and that it is much better for rather than integration of the that to concedes share in the running Parliament back and he believes own high a price to pay to the S.D.L.P. would not be too government of Northern Ireland for this." expelled from for suggesting this was to be MR PRIESTLAND: Mr Craig' s penalty It should be added that 1.'fr Craig along with three of his colleagues. the u.u.u.c. figure, proposals. So does another significant does still support the blocks intelligent theorist of the biggest Taylor, who is probably the most :Mr John Stormont writ new • that their Report is just old Official Unionist group. He disagrees . ' Minister in I personally, as a former Cabinet "MR JOHN TAYLOR (u.u.u.c.): differences now on the and Government, would see many the old Stormont Parliament in for powers now which did not exist of finance definitely we are looking question a Bill of of human rights we are proposing the old Parliament. On the question

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.ghts for the cornnnmity here, and then coming to this all-important question of he actual membership of government. Well we are providing a role for the Opposition, be they S.D.L.P., or Alliance or Faullmer Unionists. In the system of decision making which did not exist in the old Parliament these committees, in which 50 per cent of the positions will be held by members of the .Opposition, do give the Opposition almost a stranglehold gTip on the progTe~ of legislation through the House. It gives the Opposition tremendous influence and in a committee where they have 50 per cent of the seats there must be give and take by both sides if an agTeed decision is to emerge."

1:R.. PRIESTLAND: Mr. Taylor seeks to explain the row about William Craig by drawing a distinction between the present function of Convention delegates that of proposing a constitution and their future quite a separate task of deciding party policy under that constitution.

"MR. JOHN TAYLOR (u.u.u.c.): Strictly speaking you can say the u.u.u.c. Members are in fact voting for a voluntary coalition system of government. It is in 1976 o~ce you have got your constitution approved by the British Parliament that the different parties here ami=enl;Y:==then shou:1. d the-;r debate what their policies towards a voluntary coalition should be and it could well be then that several of the component loyalist parties in the u.u.u.c. would decide that they would be against joining in a voluntary coalition. But that is a policy decision to be made in 1976; it is not one which we should be debating now during the term of the Convention."

MR. PRIESTLAND: Do you think many Members of the u.u.u.c. realise what they may be letting in?

"1'.!R. JOHN TAYLOR: No, I think there are very few members of the U.U.U.C. Coalition who realise that in fact they are voting for a system of government fro~ which a coalition could emerge.

... MR. PRIESTLAND: · So as John Taylor sees it Mr. Craig may have damaged the cause of an eventual coalition by making too much noise and frightening the people away but there may be blame elsewhere. Mr. Craig himself describes the discussion that he and other Unionists were actually holding with the S.D.L.P.

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about setting up a devolved CRAIG(V.U.P.)~ We were talking "MR. rlILLIA.'1: lines of. any along the accepted and traditional parliament of Northern Ireland in exactly the same wayo In and governments would be formed British Parliament in the new in order to get confidence get agTeement to our proposals, order to t hat led to a voluntary willing to explore the clause institutions I was certainly gh that we did not follow throu British system. I am sor);:'y coalition under the got an knows whether we could have with the S.D.L.P. No one our discussions · things. T'ney were did say a number of significant agTeement or not but they a for discussion leading to in its entirety as a basis accepting the document we will not that if we reach agTeement They were prepared to say settlemento will uphold and for Northern Ireland but we only accept the new institutions we are prepared to give unreserved said if we reach agTeement defend them. They should be in and we believe that security to the forces of law and order backing Ireland and that the and government of Northern the hands of a parliament big forces. Now that was a remarkably forces should be Ulster security security possibilities of that not to have explored all the step forward and for Unionists is a reckless thing to doo" statutory power­ become of the old device of MR. PRIESTLAND: What then has sharing?

spirit of British parliamentary is that it is alien to the The Unionist argument I might or not it wins election. guarantee a party office whether democracy to Northern Ireland. democracy did not evolve in that British parliamentary respond the majority must do something to its spirit but sees that John Taylor remains loyal its rightso more than just stand upon interpreted of power-sharing as originally TAYLOR: I think the idea "MR. JOHN there is this new Ireland politicso Of course now been dropped in Northern has difficulties in loyalist coalition and one of the gTeat i ssue of a voluntary and voter to the ordinary constituent moment is .a; to get it over politics at the and a voluntary between compulsory power-sharing that there is a great distinction that to i to My attitude is this ask me what is my attitude coalition. Now you the loyalist Ireland must recognise that that firstly everyone in Northern I feel in Northern Irelando majority of the electorate community are by far the vast

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they have in an election and therefore proved time after tirre This has now been likewise the anti­ in Northern Ireland. But power of veto on any institution the because they are a significant have the power of veto partitionist_ minority in this province. per cent of the electorate they represent about 25 minority; they have to learn to work powerblocks that have vetoes When you have two great that everyone I feel that it is important live together and therefore together and . in Northern Ireland cannot the system of government country recognises that in the have minority consent." support. It must also survive simply by majority have that enough concessions Ian Paisley takes the view MR. PRIESTLAND: gone that extra mile. that the Unionists have made already to the S.D.L.P., a role been allow the opposition such the world, he says, would No other parliament in in decision making. ombudsmen who wi l l be the opposition permanent "MR. PAISLEY: We are making have of government and the S.D.L.P. their eye upon the departments t paid to keep the whip in the Governiuen we get a fair crack of me, "We want to be sure said to you ensure that all minorities Well what. better way could of Northern Ireland". status and authority of whip than giving them the get a better crack of the would and scrutinise governirent commissioners to supervise permanent parliamentary departments." r , t hough the present situation mostl: We have been looking at MR. PRIESTLANTI: heard t hat in eyes. As we have already through Unionist e by no means entirely, for concentrati::g on t h of view but the main reason involves several points are itself really fateful decisions all is said and done the Unionists i s that when From.the S.D,L.P. British Government's. the I.R.A.'s and the . v::..L.u-.JTltJ:-1'-'f theirs, or theirs, iroJ 11' :u,ic give his side believe the Unionists will John Hume still doesn't Benches 1 ban coalition. the U.U.U.Co s vote to any authority and he cites the basic I suspected anyway that leads me to the view which "MR. HUME: That here. That in of Protestant domination factor is the preservation that motivating created in the first place; why Northern Ireland was essence was the reason a permanent drawn so as to give them of Northern Ireland was is why the boundary have changed their and circumstances would would have hoped that time majority. One that no society can exist them to the realisation and would have brought attitude that it can only exist by one section of it, attitude of ourselves alone, and on the the recognition of the rights all sections together and by the free workings of

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JLSTER WHAT NEXT" their position. together.· That is not of all sections working aspirations domination is what they the conclusion that Protestant Therefore I am forced to to protect their own traditions." are about as the means an issue, itself, it is not really Protestant is a religion MR. PRIESTLAND: worn by a badge which happens to be It is just a sort of coincidental is it. to their class or type? of person. What is fundamental certain class, or type in to be the badge of difference In essence religion happens "MR. HUME: there is a very is in other places although -J in a way that colour Northern Irelan might say not all of of Unionism, although I degree within the politics strong and others of just naked represented by Paisley but a very strong degree, strong them, I think that is a very is very very obvious. anti-Catholicism and that motivating factor." beliefs it necessary to nail his :But if Mr. Paisley feels MR. PRIESTLAND: to nail t hem who resent his attempts Luther there are others through the door like it cannot be of Mr. Paisley's motives Still whatever one thinks down as well. number of loyalists in the blood of a large he does sound bugles gh t denied that The Provisionals one mi the I.R.A. is active. more loudly than when they and never There are some who say agents Mr. Paisley has. say are the best recruiting the Rev. Party delegate rings out David 13leakley, the Labour need. each other. against sin. and with a revivalist crusade Ian's links both with violence ht campaign has played ri g in some ways the terror "MR. :BLEAKLEY: In fact Ireland. Substantial reactionaries in Northern into the hands of political campaign . made possible by the terrorist in Northern Ireland is political reaction people of Ulster are think straight and the are frightened they can't ~ben people had the terror campaign think that if we had not frightened and I :But undoubtedly have had more concensuso Convention we might well going parallel with the it is the present u.u.u.c. and a fundamental divide inside I think there is and the are reflected by Mr. West the county families who represented by a group which is it were. Then you have Presbyterian element as respectable Paisley, the big tent were, represented by 1Ir. Lumpenproletariat as it much more to life. Now that just sort of ·Elmer Gantry approach gospel kind of thing, the

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,LSTER WHAT NEXT " nd t here ar e many people Ulster Unionist r anks a go dovm well inside the does not -~;.. r adi tional Unionists' IJ~u e he is noi; one of t he t i sley, b.:,:c.1 ;,:i as it wer who s us pect Pa d t hose are negative ot even an Orangeman an r esbyterian and h e is n camp ; he i s not P in our situation but Paisley is r elevant not exactly ende ax him things whi ch do to disappear, once Once the turbulence begins of the turbulence. less t oday because then he will become mu ch rnatives be gin to eme r ge ant and Cat holic alte will Protest in the past, I feel he like many of our firebrands dramatic and he will be retire to his pulpit again." Mr. Paisley is better in it is hard to deny t hat MR. PRIESTL.AND: I think e his t icians, largely be caus than most Un i onis t poli tune with his constituents cont inuously the same thing and he moves and his church are almost constituency It is wi dely believed in prayer meeting to another. among them from one crowded ed that even Tulr . Paisley wa s c onvinc circles that not long ago Stormont political hern I reland was to with t he Catholics if Nort have to be a coalition /?..c.c.+-,,,i.h t here would r 0 11 t~ d after a from London. But that he any kind of self government at stake. regain ecclestical fut ure was had warned him that his delegation of elders deny it. stern he could hardly wait to this to Mr. Paisley and It was only fair to put to at any time wa s prepared absolute nonsense. I never "MR. PAISLEY: It is absolutely I was always total l y and government with the S.D.L.P. discuss coalition never at any time is concerned, my church to it and as far as my church opposed that ever once has t he stand. I do not think with my political and interferes way that you ought to go", said to me, "This is the presbytery of my church them to mind their own business." if they did I would tell

in the Unionist moven:ent heard of the gap that exists MR PRIESTL.AND: We have West and },Ir. Craig and gentry leadership like Mr. . between the traditional I camp. One another rift in the Unionist Mr. Paisley but there is yet untraditional working-class people - from the loyalist Protestant t hat separates Mr. Paisley to the Labour would probably have tended any other circumstances people who in represents t hat Craig1 s ousted colleagues Glenn l3arr, one of William t ter Party. and he feels extremely bi the Protestant para-militaries class as he does mates. have exploited him and his about the way certain politicians

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worked up emotive phrases to get the people "MR . BARR (V.U.P.): They use done, these people to the streets, as they have and then ~hen the people take far as the l7lste::­ give them the lead~rship. As themselves are never around to committee, t hat and indeed the co-ordinating Defence Association is concerned, to it, they have made it para-military organisations affiliated is the other any mor e to be used by the politicians clear that they are not going perfectly and t neir dru.w. have said with their loud mouths that if the politicians, as I and to get on war situation then they will have beatings, push us into a civil ghting t his time . As and get to the front of the fi their para-military uniforms to the electorate of Northe:-n it they made certain commitments far as we see gove~£eni, They said they would return a which they cannot genuinely fulfil. Ireh nd fact that s with it, and we 1mow for a I :r eland, and all the trimming to Northern sections of the is some agreement between both that cannot be done unless there to say, ",le will demand our 1mow it as well but they continue communityo They Y,i:l t~:e does not give in to us then -.e Westminster and if Westminster rights from :reople like to take it, they mean that I and and when they say they are going it", "No, if you are what we are saying to them is, going to take it for them and me are line to take i t "o" take it and you be in the front going to take it this time you

limit ed to poiiar­ facing Ulster are by no means MR. PRIESTLAND: The choices~· at least there rule as at present. In theory devolution or colonial direct sharing gdom, thou£h tnat integration into the United Kin the possibilities of complete are Cornelius tide of devolution or independenceo would be swimming against the me. O'Leary assessed them both for

Government to integration rith The objections of the British "MR. O'LEARY: e commit the British Troops her are first of all that it would Northern Ireland military would much prefer to reduce the or indefinitely and that they permanently and seccndly it this general cutback in expenditure commitments anyway as part of the Provisional I.R.~ . the position of the I.R.A., ·particularly would strengthen British committed to extracting from the The Provisional I.R.A. is officially Ireland within a certain period 0 a pledge to .disengage from Northern Government the trend of pledge but on the other hand if They are not likely to get this presence in Tiortne:rn towards increasing the British British policy is the other way

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give the I.RoA. a it well then this would rather than diminishing Ireland to grasp and utilise." they would not be slow propaganda lever which for the idea of negotiated isn't there more support MR. PRIESTLAND: Why independenee for Ulster? if there has made it plain that The :British Government "MR. O'LEARY: troops and their they withdraw both their is to be negotiated independence vrhich everyone The second point is one That is the first point. subsidies. that an independent Ulster are prepared to admit; but every few people to the knows reapply for ad.mission Treaty of Rome have to under the terms of the a package deal no question of having (iommunity. There is European Economic veto its ap1)1ication. Member of the Nine could and any individ.ual government in advance might but the French British or Irish governments I do not think the with separatist they are already troubled be quite likely to because could hive would of the United Kingdom and Corsica and if part movements in Brittany tance of membership state with the concomi and enter as an independent itself off be a ver./ and so forth that would and of the Commission of the Council of Ministers bad precedent. as letting Protestant the more Britain is seen I,ffi. PRIESTLAND: Nevertheless, Paradoxically, like Ulster Nationalism. Ulster Unionism becomes Ulster down the more the Union Jack. of Ulster rather than now fly the Red Hand ne most Loyalist homes to talk of going it alo does lead, however unrealistically, Inevitably Nationalism that a fed-up Britain are those who believe negotiated tenns. There preferably on • . Both Mr. Paisley and to cut the union link even pay Northern Ireland But Mr. Taylor might U.D.I. is unthinkable. to me tha:t an Ulster Taylor have insisted its advocates Mr. and e~plained to me what of Ulster on its own has pondered the idea meant. acceptable something that is more are talking about is MR. TAYLOR: What they emerges = whereby a new constitution negotiated independence and that is a form of democratically Catholic and Protestant agreement between the d as a result of can agree will be approve course, anything they here. Of we would elected representatives an independent Ulster and Dublin. If we had in both London same automatically and Protestants in the because we have Catholics have a new situation aspirations in that they the same constitutional and they would share em'blems. government ata;lie, the eymbQl~ a.ni ' 1at€%tt½, th@ G<.m.i.rt:l,tiatign oi' the would. ooth @\ij)l)Qt't the

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constitutional political division on There would not be this of the State. definitely so the negotiated independence is at the moment and issues which there in a Catholics freely together bring Protestants and is a formula which would

system of government. the the moment it touches that Pm afraid explodes MR. PRIESTLAND: But Hume as we have heard, attitude. To John facts of the Catholic thorny ascendency. for preserving the Protestant 1 ;'-11< ther dodge independence s ;j 1i:; ~- 9 constitutional of the U.U.U.C s draft in London next week So given the arrival next? proposals; what happens either made no specific provision 1974 Northern Ireland Act As we have noted the a The Act provided for for an Irish Dimension. sharing as a right or for power was likely to what provision for government be elected to consider Convention to comrmmi ty-. the Northern Ireland acceptance throughout command the most widespread maintains that its cent of the vote the u.u.u.c. to represent 58 per Claiming is no reason why Taylor maintains there requirement. John proposals meet that bounce back. in those circumstances their document should Report will be accepted. is a cha.nee that the TAYLOR: I think there MR. back to Northern then it could be sent is noto If it is not But let us assume it There the first decision for further consideration. Ireland to the Convention -r; c. '1 are prepared to even as to whether~ the Members of the U.U.UoCo lies with of the very would be that because own personal attitude reconsider ito My - there is a widespread within Northern Ireland sit~tion that we have dangerous the best answer the Convention that political parties in conviction amongst all to be open minded and at Stormont - we ought system of government is a devolved some of the it is possible to meet that Report to see if to further reconsider view. It may not be That is my personal British Government. requirements of the

the view of the U.U.UoCo

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the Report and return ass postage stamp on simply put a first cl The UoU.U.C. may where there will be will then have a situation Harold Wilson and we and the it to people in Northern Ireland the majority of the direct conflict between going back to the very quickly find ourselves Government. We could stoppage and British of 1974 with an industrial were in ih the Spring now situation that we of development could I fear that that type and so ono Report ani the paramilitaries instance mishandle the Government in the first emerge if the British have not a flexibility in Northern Ireland if the U.U.UoCo leadership come back hereo secondly comes back if it does time that that Report of attitude at the the most enigma.tic figure Bill Craig? Perhaps PRIESTLAND: What of Report l,ffi. who think that if the drama. There are some the whole confusing the bard l ine in enough defectors from London there will be does come back from with the S.D.LoPo i an emergency coalition I him put together Craig I to help that Mr. Unionists just are not there and 1 think that the votes There are others who care to supply the I asked him if he vrould to Strasburg. When honour. would rather go did not decline the lacked he certainly which Worthern Ireland leadership basis for further talkso Unionist Report as a Nor did he dismiss the majority Re por t going forward in the The proposals tha.t are MR. CRAIG: Ireland, VThat they devolution in Northern sound proposals for disag~eed a.re indeed very minorities who have the confidence of the the capacity to obtain the S.D.L.1'. lack is the talks I had with I was satisfied during with us in the past. structure that has merit in the new committee that they saw vecy considerable not been able to is a pity that we have the Parliament. It been proposed for mechanical proposals strength of the actual with them the real but I debate further done when it comes back This will I hope be are going forwardo and to get that proposals a fair chance in order to give those still believe that have ·to be an agreement effectively there would Parliament off the ground likely to exist the that exists now or is of hope of agreement and the only glimmer form of voluntary coalitiono in the future is some Social and or otherwise with the : And coalition voluntary s = MR. PRIESTLAND and most of 1,:r. ·;:est' the pale of Mr. Paisley's Labour Party is beyond Total Democratic there are only two options. far as they are concerned in unionistso As ,·0 presentation an increase of Ulste United Kingdom with integration in the l go vel.'Ilffiento :But per cent Unionist p:r:ovincia of Commol).s or a 100 structure the House at Bradford the present Professor of Peace Studies to quote Alan Kerl,

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is: Does this assure will retain power. The question ensures that the Unionists that it would guarantee continued The Professor answers himself securityo same proposition to violence. I put much the resenunent, conflict and probably Dr. Paisley and got this replyo in Northern Ireland say to you that no goverment PAISLEY: Could I just MR. exercise. Look back, had this glorious power-sharing will bring peace here. We - from? From the minority population Where did the trouble come see what happened. part of Ulster and strange to relate the calm the Irish Republican Army - from could not get about. Workers' strike because people TTas when there was an Ulster on. will bring peace is not just a power sharing guvernment To say to me today that My until the rule of law is restored. no peace in Northern Ireland There will be under the law'. firm principle: 'All men equal calTle into existence with one party to be applied law. That principle has gut men equally subject to the All the board whether it be the word deliberately - across ruthlessly - and I use than paramilitary atrocities more and no one has condemned Protestant Protesta.rtts I have, but both I.R.A. atrocities more than I have, and no one has condemned keep the law. a~ctions of the communl ty must to simple. Wrong doing is due PRIESTLAND: So it is perfectly im. law. The real trouble wickedness is to enforce the wickedness and the cure for not doing so. There is a strong the British authorities are is Dro Paisley thinks intimidated people have been kidnapped, betrayal in the air. The Ulster whiff of 'The Protestant says the Paisleyite journal imprisoned by the terrorists and already been negotiated by "The ransom to be paid has Telegraph' and goes on: Elsewhere to hand us over to the enemy''. meantime they wait • Rees' staff and I 'Merlyn of Ulster and the condemned the Protestant people the paper proclaims: "Rome I.R.A. were the executioners". the working class nor the Union Jack will rally Glen Barr thinks neither this any more. round the Unionist leadership

have started to question Loyalist working class now GLEN · J3.ARR: A lot of .the a Union Jack on the food table It is not sufficient to put this type of politics. to be for bread and. milk and foodstuffs longer. People are now looking any situation that has taken When we see the present economic placed on the tableo as we relevant to us, it is as far the border issue is sti.ll very place, whilst ourselves if need We will maintain the border a.re concerned not the only issue.

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social be looking forvrard to the border we will also be o But in maintaining else forgotten. issue and everything Not just the border and economic progresso Those days have gone. 1 be one mor e be sure there won t they? Who can PRIESTL.AN"D: But have prove too MR. of U1ster may at last it leaves the people of wrath which however the I.RoA. is day it is my guess that Britain. At present for the people of enough". I much about to_cry, "Hold, the British people are mistaken in thinking that the Ulster much ·would be · a demonstration what would be too they absolutely suspect the violence. That had stopped caring about Protestants themselves g things peace. Yet after seein povrer does not assure refused to see that be the l a st to point of view I would from a Northern Ireland these past few days most eloquently o Bleakley put the case for patience. David lay down a deadline the has been bedevilled by too often Irish politics MR. BLEAKLEY: Far t hat t here we have got to remember I have often said that timetable of England. peopl e ; time. We are a historic and Engiish people's is Irish people's time not another 700 yearso This is with the problems of we are trying to deal water sheds one of the great historical difficultyo . This is little local British or the all belongo If Britain islands to which we small pattern of Yli.11 evoke in the t hose terms then it Convention outcome in government sees the hich says :Sri tish and it nrust be one w to the historical dimension a response appropriate patience • . This is a This is a problem demanding is a long term problem. situation . this are required in a perilistic the subtilities which problem demanding all look at this will say: "Have ru:iother of approach then they If we get that kind we can take it have done and see if the basis of what you positiono Work on Government to say: would be for the British 11 The real calamity step .:urthero And a new a a new initiative." chance. Let us try "They have had their course a disastero no part would be of the Ulster people play initiative in which seem to ha ve end t ,he Convention may dead the • • I · PRIESTLAND: However l avray by 1fil. out and : not be tovred to find its ovm way reached it must be encouraged Westminstero ns better personal rel atio more readiness to compromise, the scenes there is when Behind had in fact made progress between the part:j.es meets the eyeo Talks scamP,er1.ng of t heir than · the prepared dugouts sent everyone7back to the Craig-Paisley collision there is an air the all clear. If where they now await election manifestos 16

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beneath because lurking have heard it is much of what we about so politics but violence. of unreality language is not are t hose who se wh om a:ny stage all the time I .R.Ao to the ediat ely the Provisional but more i mm cue for en of both communities at all may be the 1.I or no agreement of their demands agreement short violenceo all t he me not to allow am O·r a.i g to urge I think, for Vlilli forward gri mly fair enough, o He looked It was ist shoulders to pile on Loyal blame for any failure for us allo to a. future of suffering push. 'Vfe can of a very big I.R.A. are now on the eve minor ones. CRAIG: We and a number of MR. incident a week least one major ,ri l l I from now on at United Kingdom there expect Parliarnen t of the Report goes to the Parliament a.ncl But when this the United Kingdom to intimidate further be a slight escalation will be an even think it back here there proposes to send of agreement when the Parliament there are prospects back here and we If it does come agreement but ii' escalationo to try to prevent out all the stops is in the really vrill pull government they then the United Kingdom agreement the I.R.A. i s can reach this political and I think when to defeat the I.R.Ao t t he possible position back to accep strongest until you get everybody a matter of time defeated it is only of law and order. normal standards to not tolerate but to to have to learn So we are going lii.Ro PRIESTLAND: sort of political of violence. whatever continuing level endure a certain ato agreement is arrived Ulst er to endure ito The it. We have got That is exactly in Great MR. CRAIG: our fellow citizens since 1968. I hope endured a ,lot through for the next people have that we must go and suffering sort can en du.re the pain seeking out some Britain to help by genuinely and our duty is six or seven months and agreement here. of political settlement What agreement. But what settlement. MR. PRIESTLAND: the great a quotation from instruct you with all diverse and :perhaps hc1.t1ded held off I can only warrior, who single the bronze age had epic of Cuhoulan, sent to ask if he · Ulster the men of Conna1,1.ght South. At last not tell you the heroes of the "Eut I shall I have" said Cuhoulan, q, truce • . "That em I shall be a:ny terms for who does know t h can find anyone "However if you what they are" 11

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