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SENATE Official Committee Hansard COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SENATE Official Committee Hansard FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE LEGISLATION COMMITTEE (Consideration of Estimates) TUESDAY, 17 JUNE 1997 BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA 1997 CONTENTS TUESDAY, 17 JUNE Department of Defence— Program 4—Air Force ................................. 573 Program 5—Intelligence ................................ 574 Program 8—Defence personnel executive .................... 580 Program 10—Science and technology ....................... 617 Program 11—Defence estate ............................. 623 Program 12—Corporate information ........................ 632 Program 13—Corporate support ........................... 632 Tuesday, 17 June 1997 SENATE—Legislation FAD&T 571 SENATE Tuesday, 17 June 1997 FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Portfolios: Foreign Affairs and Trade; Defence (including Veterans’ Affairs) Members: Senator Troeth (Chair), Senators Bourne, Cook, Eggleston, Ferris and Hogg Participating members: Senators Abetz, Bolkus, Brown, Brownhill, Calvert, Colston, Faulkner, Forshaw, Harradine, Margetts, Murphy, Neal, Ray, Schacht and West The Committee met at 7.32 p.m. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE Proposed expenditure, $10,937,163,000 (Document A). Consideration resumed from 12 June 1997. In Attendance Senator Newman, Minister for Social Security Defence Headquarters Vice Admiral Chris Barrie, Vice Chief of the Defence Force Rear Admiral David Campbell, Head, Strategic Logistics (designate) Major General Peter Abigail, Assistant Chief of the Defence Force (Policy and Strategic Guidance) Air Vice Marshal Dave Rogers, Assistant Chief of the Defence Force (Force Capability Development) Air Vice Marshal Graeme Moller, Surgeon General Commodore Russ Shalders, Director General, Operations Policy and Plans Air Commodore John Kindler, Director General, Capability Policy and Plans Mr Hugh White, Deputy Secretary, Strategy & Intelligence Mr Robert Tonkin, Deputy Secretary, Budget and Management Dr Ian Williams, First Assistant Secretary, Force Development and Analysis Mr Allan Behm, First Assistant Secretary, International Policy Mr Terry Smith, Assistant Secretary, Program Coordination and Development Dr Graham Kearns, Assistant Secretary, Regional Engagement Policy and Programs Mr David Templeman, Assistant Secretary, Corporate Management Mr Ed David, General Manager Operations, Defence Housing Authority Navy Rear Admiral Chris Oxenbould, Deputy Chief of Navy Mr Les Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Resource Planning—Navy FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE FAD&T 572 SENATE—Legislation Tuesday, 17 June 1997 Army Major General John Hartley, Deputy Chief of Army Major General Paul Stevens, Assistant Chief of Army, Personnel Mr Peter Lush, Assistant Secretary, Resource Planning—Army Air Force Air Vice Marshal Errol McCormack, Deputy Chief of Air Force Air Vice Marshal Robert Richardson, Assistant Chief of the Air Staff Personnel Resource Management Air Commodore David Leach, Acting Head, Industry Services and Contracting Group Mr Tony Preston-Stanley, Assistant Secretary Resources Planning—Air Force Intelligence Mr Hugh White, Deputy Secretary, Strategy and Intelligence Support Command Major General Des Mueller, Commander Support (designate) Joint Education and Training Commodore John Lord, Head, Joint Education and Training (designate) Defence Personnel Executive Brigadier Peter Dunn, Head, Defence Personnel Executive (designate) Air Vice Marshal Frank Cox, Assistant Chief of the Defence Force (Personnel) Brigadier William Traynor, Director-General Personnel Policy and Plans Air Commodore Nick Ford, Director-General Defence Force Pay and Conditions Colonel Rod Margetts, Acting Director-General Force Recruiting Mr David Barritt-Eyles, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Human Resources and Management Mr Claude Neumann, Assistant Secretary, Compensation, Rehabilitation and Superannuation Mr Felix Bleeser, Director, Program Resources and Management Ms Gwen Wharton, Director, Military Compensation and Rehabilitation Acquisition Dr Susanne Pearce, Acting Deputy Secretary, Acquisition Rear Admiral Peter Purcell, Assistant Chief of Navy, Materiel Major General John Kingston, Assistant Chief of Army, Materiel Air Vice Marshal Doug Riding, Assistant Chief of Air Force, Materiel Mr Ron Bonighton, First Assistant Secretary, Defence Materiel Mrs Merrilyn McPherson, First Assistant Secretary, Capital Equipment Program Dr Gary Ashton, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Industry Involvement and Contracting Mr Maurice Hermann, Assistant Secretary, International Materiel Science and Technology Dr Richard Brabin-Smith, Chief Defence Scientist Mr Murray Domney, Assistant Secretary, Science Corporate Management Defence Estate Mr Rod Corey, First Assistant Secretary, Facilities and Property FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE Tuesday, 17 June 1997 SENATE—Legislation FAD&T 573 Corporate Information Mr Phil Huntley, Acting Head, Corporate Information Corporate Support Mr Peter Sharp, Head, Corporate Support (designate) Finance and Inspector General Mr Frank Lewincamp, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Resources and Financial Planning Mr George Veitch, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates Mr Ken Moore, Assistant Secretary, Resources Policy and Programs Mr Garry Ryle, Acting Assistant Secretary, General Investigations and Review Department of Finance— Mr Jeff Hurst Mr Doug Rankin Mr Geoff Ross CHAIR—I declare open this meeting of the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee. I welcome again the minister and the officers of the Department of Defence. On Thursday, the committee completed programs 1, 2, 3, 6, 7 and 9. This evening we will continue considering program 4 and then consider the remaining programs in sequential order. I remind colleagues that the Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee has been tasked by the Senate to inquire into and report on the format of the portfolio budget statements. As we go through the documents, you may wish to put on the Hansard record your thoughts on the PBS—where they are clear and helpful or where they are confusing or hard to follow. I call for further questions on program 4. [7.33 p.m.] Program 4—Air Force Senator Newman—First of all, Madam Chairman, it was Defence’s understanding that the Air Force—which is program 4—had finished. I think that the last of the questions were placed on notice. CHAIR—We had marked down to continue with program 4. Are Air Force not here? Senator Newman—I understand that someone is here but didn’t Senator Hogg agree to the last of his questions being put on notice for the Air Force? That was what I thought. Senator HOGG—No, no. Senator Newman—It was certainly the understanding of Defence. Senator HOGG—If there is a question, it is only one or two that would be outstanding. If they cannot be answered, they can be answered on notice. Senator Newman—All right. CHAIR—Could you please proceed then, Senator Hogg. Senator HOGG—I just want to revisit the issue I raised the other day in respect of Tindal, and the storage of the Sandline equipment at Tindal. Do we have any idea what the materiel being stored there is? Vice Adm. Barrie—The equipment that is being stored at Tindal from Sandline International comprises some helicopters and some small arms and ammunition. FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DEFENCE AND TRADE FAD&T 574 SENATE—Legislation Tuesday, 17 June 1997 Senator HOGG—I am not sure if I asked this question the other day. Is anyone paying for the storage costs there, or is that something that we are bearing ourselves? Vice Adm. Barrie—At present, no charges for storage has been levied. The problem with the Sandline equipment is the question of ownership. Once that is decided then I am sure that issue will be addressed. Senator HOGG—I think that is program 4 out of the way. [7.35 p.m.] Program 5—Intelligence CHAIR—We will move to any questions on program 5. I must say that there can be only general questions on this. Senator HOGG—Yes. CHAIR—Do you have any questions on that? Senator HOGG—Just a question on the fact that there is an estimated saving, as I understand, of $16 million in that area. Is that part of the efficiency dividend? Mr White—No; there is, as you have observed, an increase from $124 million to $136 million against this function, if you compare it with 5.3 in the old program structure. That does not reflect any change in general approach to the intelligence function or policy priority. As a broad proposition, intelligence function has been regarded as the sharp end rather than the blunt end in the overall defence portfolio and has tended to be a beneficiary of the savings available, rather than a source of savings—in both the previous budgets, savings options of $125 million a year. That has been the approach taken to the DER. Senator HOGG—Just within the confines of the defence efficiency review, are we able to identify what is happening in this area? Whilst I understand the secure nature of it, are we able to identify what is going to happen to personnel in that area, or will that be something that is subsumed into the program? Mr White—The government has traditionally taken a restrictive view of the information provided on the intelligence function within the portfolio. I believe it would continue to be the government’s intention not to provide much more information on that function that is provided in the PBS for this year. Senator HOGG—I think for the first time in a long time we have had a little bit more information. When I was referring
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