Thursday Volume 536 24 November 2011 No. 229

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 24 November 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 431 24 NOVEMBER 2011 432

Therefore, we will seek to improve them to get the best House of Commons possible outcome for taxpayers, consumers and farmers alike. Thursday 24 November 2011 Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): The Secretary of State will recall that that great European, Socrates, The House met at half-past Ten o’clock said that a politician who does not know the price of a bushel of wheat should not be in the job. If we got rid of PRAYERS the CAP, we would have to have a BAP—a British agricultural policy. Knowing our farming community—a [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] landowning community—and its control of top Tories, I suggest that the BAP would be far more expensive BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS than the CAP.

NEW WRIT Mrs Spelman: I think we are speculating wildly about Ordered, the future of Europe. My job is to concentrate on That the Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the getting an improvement in the reforms. It is important Crown to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Member to to appreciate that the underlying objective of the CAP serve in this present Parliament for the Borough constituency of is to provide good-quality food at a reasonable price. Feltham and Heston in the room of Alan Keen, deceased.— My Department is committed in its business plan priorities (Ms Winterton.) to producing more food sustainably, precisely to achieve that objective.

Oral Answers to Questions Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree that a primary objective must be a move from market-distorting production ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS supports to supporting public goods, such as the environment and amenity. How much progress does she The Secretary of State was asked— believe the CAP reforms are making in that direction? How do we ensure that that general direction of progress Common Agricultural Policy can be accelerated?

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What recent Mrs Spelman: That is a helpful question, as it enables steps she has taken on reform of the common me to share with the House the fact that we are on a agricultural policy. [82269] journey with these proposals. We welcome the fact that the Commission wants to “green” the CAP. Taxpayers The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and have every right to expect other public goods for the Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Having just heard subsidy they provide. We feel that the “greening”proposals the writ being moved, I am sure it would be the right also lack ambition, and we want proper recognition of thing to do to express our condolences to Alan Keen’s the fact that UK farmers go a lot further than those in a wife, Ann, whom we all remember, on behalf of the lot of other member states in providing stewardship whole House. schemes that make a real difference and provide The Government have commenced negotiations on environmental benefits that address problems such as the CAP reform proposals, which the Commission the demise of species. published on 12 October and which, for the first time, require the co-decision of the European Parliament. I Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): There is much recently met Agriculture Commissioner Ciolos, together talk of returning powers from Brussels to this Parliament with the Agriculture Ministers for the devolved and the British Government. Would the CAP not be a Administrations, to ensure that all parts of the United good policy to bring back to Britain? Could we not Kingdom are taken into account. subsidise British farmers, even at the current levels, and Mr Bone: Our net contribution to the European save billions of pounds from our budget every year? Union in the last five years of the Labour Government was £19 billion, and in the next five years of this Mrs Spelman: The nature of the supplementary questions coalition Government it will be £41 billion—an increase is ranging much wider than the remit of my Department. of 116%, because Tony Blair gave away Mrs Thatcher’s As I have said, my job at each one of these Council EU rebate. At the time, he said that our net contribution meetings is to get the best possible deal for consumers, would not increase because the European Union had taxpayers and farmers in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. promised massive reform of the CAP. Who was lying, That is my duty. Tony Blair or the European Union? Dangerous Dogs Mrs Spelman: That is precisely why the UK Government have expressed their disappointment that the proposed CAP reforms lack ambition. Although the commissioner 2. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) correctly identifies food security and climate change as (Lab): What recent discussions she has had with the the two key challenges that agriculture faces, I regret Secretary of State for the Home Department on the that the proposals do not really address the great challenge. consultation on dangerous dogs. [82270] 433 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 434

The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Members who previously sat on the Opposition Front Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): My noble. Bench supported the proposal, they said that it would Friend Lord Taylor, who leads on the subject of dangerous help economic growth. Why, in the present economic dogs in DEFRA, has been working alongside Lord crisis, is it not being pursued more vigorously? Henley at the Home Office to see how the proposed antisocial measures can be best applied to such behaviour Mrs Spelman: Two things have emerged. We had relating to dogs. DEFRA has also been developing more than 2,000 replies to the consultation, which proposals on reducing dog attacks and promoting more showed that carbon is reported in very different ways. responsible dog ownership. This is now at an advanced One challenge is to find a way in which it can be stage and, subject to ministerial clearance, we will be reported meaningfully so that investors know which able to make an announcement early in the new year. company to invest in, because they understand the information they receive. Secondly, the Department for Michael Connarty: That is a very helpful reply, because Business, Innovation and Skills is consulting on the while the Government have been divided on this matter— content of company accounts—narrative reporting, as DEFRA and the Home Office share this responsibility— it is known. We need to synchronise the issue because and dithering, quite frankly, yet another very serious attack carbon reporting would be in a set of company accounts. on a postman has been reported by the Communication I perfectly understand the requirements of the Climate Workers Union. Someone nearly lost most of the fingers Change Act 2008 in that regard. on one hand in an attack by a dog, which was clearly vicious, in a private property. We need to deal with that Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): Climate change is problem quickly because members of the postal services the biggest market failure the world has seen and the who go into private property must be protected from Secretary of State’s decision on whether to introduce people who keep vicious dogs. carbon reporting to correct the failure is imminent. That decision is a once-in-a-Parliament opportunity to Mr Paice: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. create green growth and drive the development of low- The issue of dangerous dogs on private land is very carbon products and services across UK plc. With important and it is one of the issues we are discussing youth unemployment at record levels and mandatory closely with the Home Office because, as he will know, it reporting supported by Britain’s largest employers, how would require amendment to primary legislation. many jobs does she estimate would be created in the UK’s green economy if it was introduced? Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Further to that reply, one of the consequences of the dangerous dogs debate has been the stigmatisation of an entire breed, the Mrs Spelman: The hon. Lady shares entirely with me Staffordshire bull terrier, which makes up a huge percentage an appreciation of how important it is that we make of the abandoned dogs that Battersea Dogs and Cats progress in that area. She will have seen how the coalition Home takes in and a vast bulk of those that are hard to Government have committed to challenging targets in rehome. Yesterday, Battersea Dogs and Cats Home order to change our economy to a low-carbon basis. In launched a campaign in Parliament to reclaim the good the spirit of being on the same page on this matter, I can name of the Staffordshire bull terrier. May I invite the say that I am keen to do what I can to transition the Minister to endorse that campaign? economy in that regard. On this specific question, however, I hope that the hon. Lady will appreciate that, as I said Mr Paice: Yes, I am happy to endorse that campaign, in my reply to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East having been brought up as a child with bull terriers, as (Sheila Gilmore), we need to synchronise carbon reporting my parents had them—[Interruption.] I said “with”, in a way that investors can understand. At the moment, not “by”. I entirely accept my hon. Friend’s contention there are different requirements on companies to report that the vast majority of that breed are perfectly harmless. in different ways. We need a meaningful measure of carbon reporting in the spirit of achieving that low-carbon Mr Speaker: Much has now been explained. We are economy. very grateful to the Minister. Mary Creagh: The Secretary of State signally failed Carbon Emissions to answer my question. There is no estimate in the impact assessment of the number of jobs that the new 3. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): What recent products and services would create. When the global discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on recession struck in 2008, Labour’s future jobs fund the introduction of mandatory reporting of carbon created green jobs for young people in wildlife trusts, emissions by businesses. [82271] country parks and green charities across the country, but they are now on the dole. Carbon reporting will The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and help us to move to the low-carbon economy. When did Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I have had recent she last sit down with the Chancellor, one to one, to discussions with ministerial colleagues on the issue and discuss the autumn statement that he will make on I know that there is a lot of interest in it. There is an Tuesday and how DEFRA will play its part in creating appetite in Government for it but, as the House will be the conditions for green jobs and growth to tackle the aware, any policy has to undergo an impact assessment, crisis? which we are in the process of clearing. Mrs Spelman: I do not think it is my job to share in Sheila Gilmore: There are only four months until the advance with the hon. Lady the content of the autumn Government are obliged either to introduce carbon Budget statement. As I just said, I share with her the reporting or to explain why they have not. When the clear vision about opportunities to create jobs if our 435 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 436 economy is transitioned into a low-carbon economy. If Richard Benyon: I entirely support the words of the her party felt so passionately about that, why did it not Chairman of the Select Committee on Environment, proceed with what she now claims we should be doing Food and Rural Affairs. We have an opportunity to during its 13 years in office? achieve something that we have failed to do for decades—a system that reflects local needs. It is absurd to have a Common Fisheries Policy common fisheries policy that from Brussels sets net sizes for fishing fleets around our coast. We have to have some form of regionalisation. We like the direction that 4. Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What the reforms are taking and we wish to see more detail in recent discussions she has had with her EU counterparts the coming weeks. on reform of the common fisheries policy. [82272] Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is it not remarkable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for that in the space of a quarter of an hour the Government, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): who are supposed to be blazing a trail for bringing back As the UK fisheries Minister, I continue to have discussions things from the common market and the European about reform of the common fisheries policy with a Union, have already eliminated the repatriation of the wide range of people and organisations. They include common agricultural policy and, according to what the the EU Commission, Members of the UK and European Minister just said, fisheries is not on the agenda, either? Parliaments and ministerial colleagues of other member Are we not being led up the garden path? states, as well as representatives of our fishing and related industries. I will continue to press our case for Richard Benyon: It is always nice to hear from the reform as negotiations develop in the Council and hon. Gentleman with his cheery disposition so early in European Parliament. the morning. He probably did not hear my reply to the previous question, in which I said that we are talking Amber Rudd: I thank the Minister for that answer. about the repatriation of controls whereby countries His and the Government’s commitment to sustainable around a sea basin will have greater management of our fisheries and sustainable fishing communities is well fisheries. The wider question about whether we should known and much appreciated. Is he aware of the real have a common fisheries policy at all probably is not for anxiety, shock and growing opposition from the smaller this forum but is, perhaps, for a higher pay grade. He is fisherman community to the transferable fishing concessions welcome to take part in the frequent debates that we being proposed, given that this has been so damaging to have in the House on this matter. smaller communities? Electronic Training Aids (Cats) Richard Benyon: The fish in our seas are a national resource and what we are talking about, in the reform of 5. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): this failed policy, is getting a fairer system for the What her policy is on the use of electronic training aids allocation of that resource. Transferable fishing concessions for cats. [82273] in other countries are sometimes a lever towards better conservation, but I reassure my hon. Friend and fishermen The Minister of State, Department for Environment, in her constituency that we are not happy with the Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): DEFRA has proposal that has been made thus far. We think it neither commissioned nor evaluated any specific research requires much more detail and there are certain elements on electronic training aids for cats. DEFRA is currently of it to which we are opposed. We will keep her and the awaiting the publication and evaluation of recent research House informed at every stage. on the use of electronic training collars for dogs, before making any decisions on whether to introduce any Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Will the Minister proposals relating to those devices. accept that, however the common fisheries policy is reformed, the biggest threat to fish stocks in our waters Natascha Engel: I thank the Minister for that answer, and internationally is unsustainable commercial fishing? because 250,000 cats are killed on the roads every year. Given that, what is he doing to ensure that all public Containment fences and electronic devices help to keep procurement of fish in this country, including by this cats safe, and they are completely different from the place, is from sustainable sources? electronic collars used on dogs. Will he guarantee that, when his Department consults on banning the use of Richard Benyon: I am pleased to report, if the right electronic collars, he will distinguish between cats and hon. Gentleman has not heard, that the Government dogs and work closely with the group, Feline Friends, are announcing Government buying standards at the which is based in North East Derbyshire—my constituency? highest level, commensurate with the Olympic standard, which is considered to be the relevant level of sustainability. Mr Paice: I think I can confirm to the hon. Lady’s Across Government, we will procure fish only from satisfaction that we have no plans to do anything about sustainable sources. training aids for cats. Indeed, the research on dogs that I referred to relates only to collars, not to what is known Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): as the invisible fence. We therefore have no such proposals. Will my ministerial Friend agree that one of the most exciting aspects of the proposed reforms is regional Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Can my right hon. control? Will he strain every sinew to ensure that we end Friend explain why the Home Office has responsibility the exclusive competence of the EU in this regard and for dangerous dogs and he seems to have responsibility allow regional fisheries to control their own waters? for domestic cats? 437 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 438

Mr Paice: Well, it is probably because, as anyone who Mrs Spelman: The hon. Gentleman clearly was not knows me will confirm, I am extremely soft and really listening to the fact that the waste industry is a bright just a pussycat myself. star in the economy, with growth rates of 3% to 5% per annum. One of the reasons the industry is so successful Waste Review is the constant stream of entrepreneurship and innovation, as we increasingly see waste as resource. There is continuous progress in this area, and I think that he would agree 7. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What estimate that the landfill tax has been an important regulatory she has made of the number of green jobs that will be driver in helping to encourage that innovation. created by implementation of the waste review. [82275] Animal Welfare The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Britain’s waste 8. Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What and recycling sector is valued at more than £12 billion, discussions she has had with (a) her EU counterparts employs 120,000 to 150,000 people and is forecast to and (b) ministerial colleagues on the implementation of grow by between 3% and 5% per annum over the next the welfare of laying hens directive. [82277] seven years. The waste review set us on the path to a zero-waste economy. It will support the sector’s transition 12. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): What from focusing on disposal to landfill to the greater discussions she has had with (a) her EU counterparts reuse, recycling and recovery of waste material. and (b) ministerial colleagues on the implementation of the welfare of laying hens directive. [82282] Nick Smith: If the Secretary of State adopted a 70% recycling target, as the Welsh Assembly has, an The Minister of State, Department for Environment, extra 50,000 private sector jobs could be created over Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Discussions the next four or five years. Why does England have a at EU level are ongoing, and the UK is fully engaged lower recycling target than Wales, Scotland and Northern with the Commission, other member states and the Ireland? It has the weakest targets in the UK. devolved Administrations on finding a practical enforcement solution. We need to protect producers across the EU Mrs Spelman: As I have explained before, targets in who will have complied with the ban from unfair specific areas can play a role in achieving a zero-waste competition from those who fail to comply. economy, but they can produce perverse consequences. I recently attended the Waste and Resources Action Pauline Latham: I thank the Minister for his answer. Programme conference, where it was clear that the Does he agree that the concerns of the United Kingdom waste industry feels that one of the things that has are being heard because of early representations by this driven innovation and change is the landfill tax. There Government? Will he commit to doing the same for our is no question but that the new capacity through new pig farmers, who risk being disadvantaged in the same technology to recycle more materials is an engine of way by new animal welfare regulations due in 2013? growth in the economy. Mr Paice: I can confirm to my hon. Friend that it is Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I should over a year since we first told the Commission that it like to press the Secretary of State a little further on was quite obvious that a number of countries would not recycling, particularly on the recycling of packaging, be able to comply in time. She is absolutely correct that because the Government have been too timid in their this is a precursor to an even bigger welfare issue: the packaging recycling targets so far. We have been promised ban on sow stalls, which comes in on 1 January 2013. If a consultation this year on more ambitious targets from we do not get it right this time, it does not bode very 2013 onwards. We are nearly in December, so will she well for 2013. tell us when that will happen? Sarah Newton: Colin Carter’s Eggs in Perranwell has invested in high standards of hen welfare, and it is Mrs Spelman: I think that the hon. Lady would agree understandably concerned, as I am, that cheap eggs—in that the Courtauld commitment has helped, through particular, processed or liquid eggs, which account for voluntary agreements with different sectors of the economy, 25% of the market—are coming in from parts of the significantly to increase recycling targets. We have recently EU that do not have such high standards. What is my concluded new responsibility deals on packaging with the right hon. Friend doing to prevent that? hospitality and catering sector. As part of that ongoing progress, I remain committed to the Courtauld process Mr Paice: As I said in my opening answer, discussions further extending into the community, and of course we are still going on. There is a further meeting of officials will consult shortly on new opportunities as they arise. in Brussels next week, and that really is the last chance for the EU to prove that it is serious about improving Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The animal welfare and enforcing its regulations. If, as I incoherence of those two answers serves as testament to fear, no solution comes about next week, I will make an the fact that the waste review comes from a Department announcement shortly on how we intend to protect our of missed opportunity. Put simply, green growth creates industry. jobs. The economy is in dire straits. Growth has flatlined; confidence has tanked; and 1 million young people Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): My constituent stand unemployed. My question is simple: what will the Mr Tulip and his family have spent almost £8 million Secretary of State do about it? bringing their farm up to the EU directive level. If the 439 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 440 meeting next week does not go well, will the considerations and Drink Federation and from agri-food businesses in include banning eggs from countries that are acting the Department to ask them what we can do to help illegally? them remove barriers to growth in trade. I have very good news to report: for the seventh year in a row, UK Mr Paice: I fully appreciate that UK producers have exports of food and drink have risen. invested about £400 million in new systems, and they are entitled to expect others to do the same; that is Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Uplands perfectly reasonable. As for the measures that will be are a vital source of food production in this country, taken if we do not get anywhere in Europe—and I and the Secretary of State will know that they are cannot claim much optimism on that front—I will make supported through the uplands entry level scheme. Does an announcement shortly. A ban has not been ruled she share my concern that money from the scheme is out, but I am sure that the hon. Lady will appreciate often snaffled by absentee landlords, rather than going that there are some pretty big legal issues here. to the hard-working tenant farmers who produce the food? Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given that the British egg industry has spent some £400 million on Mrs Spelman: When we announced our £26 million meeting the requirements of the EU directive, and uplands package, one of the things we said we would do countries such as Spain, Poland, France and Italy have is give priority to uplands farmers who want to take up done everything to avoid their obligations under the entry-level schemes. We specifically spoke about the directive, should not the Minister say at the EU meeting need for landlords to back their tenant farmers who that unless the Europeans put the right deal on the want to take advantage of the scheme. table, there will be a British unilateral ban to keep illegal eggs out of other EU countries? Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Public procurement is a key way of supporting British food production and Mr Paice: My hon. Friend is entirely right. Some high food standards, yet the Department for Work and 12 member states will not be in full compliance—some Pensions sources only 11% of its food from UK producers, to a much greater degree than others—and he is right DEFRA is failing on its own policy for sourcing sustainable that Spain and Poland are among those 12. As I say, we fish and the new ethical standards for food served in have not ruled out a ban. It is important that the other public institutions were ridiculed in a report this week countries—member states that, like us, will have complied, for being even weaker than those at McDonald’s. Will including most of the northern European countries—work the Secretary of State please stop clowning around with together wherever possible to make sure that we have food standards and UK food production jobs and at maximum impact when it comes to forcing compliance least try to keep up with Ronald McDonald? elsewhere. Mrs Spelman: There is no question but that the Food Manufacturing Government, through procurement choices, can make a big difference to the food and drink industry, which is 9. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) one of the reasons we set additional requirements on all (Lab): What discussions she has had with the Secretary Departments to buy to higher standards, including of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on (a) food sustainable fish, when we announced the guidelines for prices and (b) support for British food manufacturing. Government buying standards in September. We do not [82278] yet have figures for the most recent month, and no doubt it will take time to adapt to the changes, but the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and point is that there is a commitment right across central Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I have, in the Government to buy to the highest standards that we normal course of business, discussed food prices and expect from British food producers. support for food manufacturing as part of the Government’s growth review, and we continue to work with the Farm Administration Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and UK Trade & Investment to help boost growth, exports 10. Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South and efficiency in the whole food chain. Pembrokeshire) (Con): What progress she has made in reducing the administrative burden of inspection and Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Secretary of State regulation on farmers. [82280] for that answer. Food manufacturing is very important to the north-east, especially to my constituency; firms The Minister of State, Department for Environment, such as Nestlé, Warburtons and Greggs play a really Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): My hon. significant part in the local economy. What specific Friend and the House will know that the Government plans does her Department have, working alongside attach huge importance to the need to lift the burden of BIS, to support that vital sector, including through regulation while maintaining standards. On 3 November research and development and capital allowances, and I announced the publication of the interim response to by increasing exports, thereby helping to support tens the independent farm regulation taskforce. We will publish of thousands of jobs in the north-east? a final response early next year.

Mrs Spelman: All the firms that the hon. Lady mentions Simon Hart: Does the Minister agree that this is all are household names, and indeed the food industry about trust and that, where possible, we should trust contributes more than £80 billion to the UK economy. our farmers to self-regulate and impose statutory regulations As I have said, I have had representatives from the Food only where absolutely necessary? 441 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 442

Mr Paice: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I am pictured in The Sun recently, posing by the bloody afraid that there appears to have been a view over the corpse of a lion under the headline “Who’s the bigger years that every farmer was a potential criminal, and beast?”? Does the Minister condemn that? farmers felt very disillusioned about that. We believe that the vast majority want to comply with regulations Richard Benyon: We recently had a debate in Westminster and can be trusted to do so, which is why we are looking Hall about lion trophies and importation to the UK. at earned recognition so that we can concentrate our There are certain areas of Africa where lion populations resources on the small minority who might not comply. give real cause for concern, and we are working through colleagues in CITES to ensure that the concerns in that Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): debate and throughout the House are raised. Yes, I will The Minister will be aware of some initial concerns condemn any hunting of an endangered species, for about additional administrative costs for the farming whatever reason, if it puts that species at risk, and this community following the introduction of the Gangmasters Government have responsibility for— Licensing Authority, which has proved to be really effective and has been welcomed by farmers. Will he Mr Speaker: We are ever so grateful to the Minister. assure the House that there are no plans to change how the agency operates or how it is funded? Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Does the Minister not agree that one of the best ways to prevent Mr Paice: The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. The the illegal hunting of endangered species overseas is GLA was set up after the tragic events at Morecambe ever tougher controls on the illegal import of bush meat bay and, to the best of my recollection, was supported to the UK? What is he going to do to take that forward? by all parties in the House. That work is still extremely important. Discussions are taking place within Government Richard Benyon: We are very concerned about bush on whether DEFRA is the right place for the GLA, so I meat and importation, and that is why we have protected cannot give the undertakings he is perhaps demanding, funding for the work taking place at ports and airports, but the existence and purpose of the GLA is absolutely and for the expertise that we have, on the matter. There right and will be maintained. is also a very good case, which we have made in Britain, for being much stronger on the export or import of Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Suffolk rhino horn which, as we know, is putting that species at farmers expect this Government to reduce red tape. On very severe risk of extinction. the May report of the regulation taskforce, will the Minister tell us what the compliance cost saving will be Topical Questions if his Department delivers all 200 cuts in bureaucratic processes? T1. [82289] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): If she will make a statement on her departmental Mr Paice: I am afraid I cannot give my hon. Friend responsibilities. a figure at this stage because we are still developing our final response. We are going through all 214 The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and recommendations and are determined to be bold and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My Department ambitious, as we were urged to be by Richard Mcdonald. takes responsibility for safeguarding the environment, Much of the cost to farmers is the result not of complying supporting farmers and strengthening the green economy. with regulations, but of the bureaucratic burden of the In that context, I will attend important climate change process of complying, and that is what we are trying to negotiations in Durban next week. The items on the agenda address. include sustainable agriculture, as well as the protection of international forestry. In addition, I will have a series Endangered Species of bilateral discussions as part of the preparations for Rio plus 20, on which I will lead, and, of course, update 11. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What steps the House on my return. she is taking to curb the hunting of endangered species. [82281] Mr Hollobone: Farmers in the Kettering constituency continue to complain about the difficulties that they The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for encounter in obtaining their single farm payment, especially Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): where there have been changes to farm boundaries. I No native endangered species can be legally hunted in know that much has been done to sort out the Rural England. Although we cannot intervene directly in Payments Agency, but what more can be done to sort legal hunts of endangered species allowed by foreign out that wretched organisation? Governments, the UK pushes for international co-operation through the convention on international trade in endangered Mrs Spelman: As I am sure the whole House is aware, species—CITES—in order to ensure that any trade in the Minister of State, Department for Environment, endangered species is sustainable. The UK also strongly Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the supports the International Whaling Commission’s Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice) has moratorium on commercial whaling. been working hard to improve the performance of the Rural Payments Agency, and there is indeed a strategic Kerry McCarthy: Will the Minister therefore join me improvement plan to help achieve that. The target was in condemning the trophy hunting of endangered and met in June for payments, and we are making good vulnerable species such as that carried out by the millionaire progress towards achieving the target that is required to banker and Tory donor, Sir David Scholey, who was be met by the end of this year. 443 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 444

T2. [82290] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The part of the ecological focus areas that the Commissioner Wildlife Trust for Lancashire, Manchester and North proposes. We do not believe that that is the right way Merseyside is concerned about the future funding of forward. We have to produce more food, but we must higher-level stewardship on the west Pennine moors do so sustainably. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary and the Red Moss site of special scientific interest, of State said earlier, we are sorry that the proposals, so which are both in my constituency. What assurance can far, do not meet that challenge. the Secretary of State give that she will secure funding and not be out-negotiated by the French, or by the T5. [82294] Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Treasury? May I draw the Minister’s attention to early-day motion 2273 in my name, which has attracted more than The Minister of State, Department for Environment, 60 signatures from Members of all sides of the House Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I am grateful and calls for the implementation of mandatory CCTV to the hon. Lady for that question, because we are very in UK slaughterhouses? It is disturbing that around conscious that the uncertainties of the EU proposals on 90% of cases of animal cruelty in UK slaughterhouses common agricultural policy reform are causing some do not result in a successful prosecution. Will the Minister landowners and farmers to worry about their stewardship consider introducing a pilot scheme to trial such an payments. May I, though her and the House, assure approach? everybody involved that the Government are determined to continue with our stewardship schemes, both higher Mr Paice: Animal Aid believes that around 70% of level and entry level, and will do everything in our slaughterhouses already have CCTV.Regarding the recent, power to ensure that that happens? We are at an early quite proper, furore over cruelty to pigs at what was stage of the negotiations, but we are determined that then called Cheale Meats, it is important to point out somehow—either through a transfer of money from that CCTV cameras were there—albeit perhaps pointed pillar one to pillar two, or perhaps through the greening in the wrong direction—so they are not the final panacea element of pillar one—we shall maintain those excellent that some people believe them to be. Nevertheless, we schemes. are considering them as part of a wider-ranging package to ensure that there is no cruelty to animals in those last T6. [82295] Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): What few moments of their lives. discussions has my right hon. Friend had with Latin American colleagues to prepare for the forthcoming Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Does the welfare of laying international conferences in Durban and Rio? hens directive present an opportunity for us to support our farmers and food producers through country of Mrs Spelman: I have had two in particular. I met origin labelling and information on compliance suppliers Brazil’s Environment Minister, Izabella Teixeira, during and sources of egg? Will the Minister have discussions negotiations in Nagoya, and as Brazil is the host nation with supermarkets and other retailers on egg products, I went down there to help the Brazilians with preparations liquid and powder egg, and prepared foods, so that it is for Rio plus 20 next year, and most recently, as the House easy to buy good eggs? will be well aware, we had a visit from the Colombian President and the Environment Minister, Frank Pearl, Mr Paice: I can assure my hon. Friend that I have had whom I met at the Department with a proposal for such discussions and will continue to have them. I can sustainable development goals, to which we have given assure the House that overall, the supermarkets, and our support in principle. indeed much of the processing sector, are determined to comply with the spirit of the legislation and procure egg T3. [82291] Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West and egg product only from compliant cages. As I said, I Fife) (Lab): When the Government’s long overdue may well make a further statement shortly. water White Paper finally comes out, will the Secretary of State confirm that small businesses, not fat cat water T7. [82296] John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): utilities, will be at the centre of deregulation? The Minister has consistently said that the review of the common fisheries policy is a golden opportunity, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for and he has said the same again today. Will he therefore Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): make a promise to the House that the British fishing The water White Paper will be published in the next few fleet will be larger at the next election than it was at the weeks. It will set out a way forward for the water beginning of this Parliament? industry that will encourage new entrants. Richard Benyon: That would depend on there being T9. [82298] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Currently more fish to catch. What we seek to achieve through a we pay our farmers not to grow crops, but at the same proper reform is conservation measures that we can manage time the world population is growing, and half the much closer to home, which can lead to a recovery in world is in need of food. What will my right hon. Friend fish stocks and therefore an increased opportunity for do to end that scandal, so that our farmers can get back our fishing fleet. I want to see a reform of common to what they do best: growing crops for this country and fisheries policy that means that the sons and grandsons for the rest of the world? of fishermen can see a future, because they cannot at the moment. Mr Paice: I hesitate to challenge my hon. Friend, but that waste stopped four or five years ago. We no longer Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): Mandatory have set-aside. The worry now is the Commission’s greening under new CAP reform proposals would remove proposal effectively to reintroduce a 7% set-aside as a fifth of land on higher-level stewardship farms from 445 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 446 food production. What representations has the Secretary Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The of State made to the EU Agriculture Commissioner six-day movement rule and the ban on on-farm burial about the damaging impact that that would have on are particularly burdensome to livestock farmers. Since food security in this country? their introduction the scientific understanding of these matters has moved on. Will the Minister commission a Mr Paice: My hon. Friend is right to be concerned scientific review of the regulations with a view to their about that. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of relaxation? State said earlier, we met the Commissioner only 10 days ago and impressed on him the fact that the proposals Mr Paice: Both issues appear in the Macdonald were not in accordance with the challenges of global report, to which I referred earlier and to which we will food demands in the coming years. I can assure him that be responding early in the new year. The burial of dead we are not a lone voice. Listening to the voices around animals, in particular, is controlled at EU level, and it is the Council table reveals that the vast majority of not entirely within this Government’s gift to change the Ministers are opposed to taking further land out of rules. production.

T8. [82297] Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Business groups have warned that the Government’s decision to CHURCH COMMISSIONERS delay the establishment of marine conservation zones will impede investment in marine industries, including renewable energy and sustainable fishery projects. Does The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church the Secretary of State agree? Commissioners, was asked— Richard Benyon: We are progressing the implementation Civil Partnerships of an ecologically coherent network of marine conservation zones, which have to be sustainable in every sense. That 1. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): What the authority means that they have to be able to withstand any is for the policy of the Church of England that services challenge that may be put to them, legal or otherwise, of blessing should not be conducted in church premises so we need to get more evidence for some of them. I can for those who register civil partnerships. [82259] assure the hon. Gentleman that this Government remain absolutely determined to take this forward, but we need The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): to get it right. If that means we have to take a month or In its pastoral statement of July 2005, the House of two longer—or six months longer, to be perfectly Bishops affirmed that clergy of the Church of England accurate—that would be a better way than getting it should not provide services of blessing for those who wrong. register a civil partnership. The Church of England’s response to the Government’s consultation document Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): This week on civil partnerships on religious premises, which was has seen the launch of the ecosystems market taskforce. produced earlier this year, reflected that policy and was What are the practical implications of that? approved by the Archbishops Council and by the Standing Mrs Spelman: That is one of the commitments that Committee of the House of Bishops. we gave in the natural environment White Paper. We have asked Ian Cheshire, the chairman of Kingfisher Mr Bradshaw: I am grateful for that reply. Given that Group, to chair the ecosystems taskforce, together with when the law changes to allow civil partnerships to be a number of business leaders and scientists. This is an conducted on religious premises many Church of England opportunity to help business in this country to take the priests and parishes will want to conduct such ceremonies, chance, with the new green technologies and green would it not be better for the Church of England to do growth, to grow our economy into a low-carbon economy, what it did when it first allowed the remarriage of and beyond that, towards all the opportunities that divorcees in church, and allow individual priests and realising the true value of natural capital can provide. parishes to make the decision? Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Tony Baldry: In fairness, I would contend that the Co-op): Will the Secretary of State give an update on Church of England, led by its bishops, has to be free to the progress being made by her Government to tackle determine its own stance on matters of doctrine and international speculation in food commodities? That is ethics. The Government have said that the new option a major factor in driving up food prices, which is to register civil partnerships in places of worship must affecting our constituents and others internationally, be entirely voluntary. That means that those who think and it needs to be tackled as a matter of urgency. that the Church of England should opt in need to win the argument within the Church. Mrs Spelman: The evidence regarding the role of speculation in the rise of food prices is perhaps not as Church Tourism clear as the hon. Gentleman sets out. The main reason for volatility in prices is that supply and demand are 2. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): What steps tight, and the best way to address that is to improve the the Church Commissioners are taking to promote supply of food to the market. Transparency is the key to church tourism. [82260] helping to reduce volatility. We, as a Government, support greater transparency so that people around the world Tony Baldry: I was delighted recently to visit with know who is producing what, where, and how much my hon. Friend some of the historic churches in her they have in stock. That will help to buffer prices. constituency. As she is aware, the General Synod passed 447 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 448 a motion encouraging all dioceses to support church impact of policies administered by local bodies. The tourism and to link with the wider national church tourism NAO is making preparations for those potential areas strategy. The Church is working closely with its entire of work. We will give it sufficient resources to enable it group of dioceses and with the Churches Tourism to do that work responsibly and properly. Association to assist local churches in encouraging visitors, especially in the run-up to the Olympics, the Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): diamond jubilee and Open Churches Sunday. When the National Audit Office produces excellent reports, such as the recent report on flood defences, would my Laura Sandys: I thank my hon. Friend for his trip to hon. Friend consider allowing the Select Committees my constituency to see some of the wonderful churches concerned to debate their contents and conclusions, in east Kent, which are great tourist attractions. Is he rather than just the Public Accounts Committee? able to introduce me to the people who run tourism at Canterbury cathedral, which attracts hundreds of thousands of visitors? They might be able to do more to move Mr Leigh: My hon. Friend makes a good suggestion. some of those tourists to other beautiful churches in She knows that I was, in a previous incarnation, Chairman east Kent. of the Public Accounts Committee. We were keen, and remain keen, for the National Audit Office to extend its Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend makes an extremely work so that it reports not just to the Public Accounts good point. Our cathedrals attract thousands of visitors Committee but to all Select Committees. I am happy to each year. We need to encourage those who visit cathedrals take her suggestion back to the National Audit Office. such as Canterbury to visit the many fantastic churches full of history and heritage in the surrounding areas, Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is underselling such as those in my hon. Friend’s constituency. himself. He served with great distinction as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee for two Parliaments.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION CHURCH COMMISSIONERS The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission was asked— The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church National Audit Office Commissioners, was asked—

3. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Food Banks What recent discussions the Public Accounts Commission has had on ways in which the National 4. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Audit Office can be made more effective and efficient. What steps the Church of England has taken to [82262] support food banks. [82263]

Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough): The Public Accounts The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): Commission discusses the NAO’s use of resources twice The Church is heavily engaged in food banks across the a year. Last November we endorsed its strategy for the country. There is a national network of food banking three years from April 2011, which included plans to centres in towns and cities. Food banks give out nutritionally save 15% in nominal terms—21% in real terms—over balanced emergency food to people in crisis. Food banks that three-year period. The commission looked at the also offer additional support to put people in touch NAO’s efficiency gain in March when we examined its with relevant agencies that can offer further support. draft estimate. The commission will next meet on 7 December to consider the NAO’s proposed resource requirements for the three years starting in April 2012. Andrew Selous: In South West Bedfordshire, churches in Dunstable and Houghton Regis have just agreed to Mr Sheerman: Have the hon. Gentleman and the set up a food bank, and churches in Leighton Buzzard commission considered introducing the same sort of run a homeless service. Churches in those towns also reforms that the Government have produced for the support street pastors. Churches throughout the Audit Commission? Has he considered using the big constituency are taking part in the “Let’s Stick Together” five private accountancy firms more widely, or has he initiative run by Care for the Family. Does my hon. learned some lessons from the disaster that is the Audit Friend agree that that is an amazing record of achievement Commission reform? in contributing to our local community?

Mr Leigh: All that has happened so far—we will Tony Baldry: I hope that churches across the country discuss this at our meeting on 7 December—is that the will seek to engage with and support their local communities Government have proposed that the NAO take over whenever they can. The churches that my hon. Friend from the Audit Commission solely responsibility for the cites in his constituency are an excellent example. Local preparation and maintenance of the code of practice, churches can support food banking in several ways, which sets a framework for the audit of local bodies, including through the direct giving of food donations, together with associated guidance for local auditors. and through volunteering and working where necessary The NAO will also be able, when reporting to Parliament to step in to assist those in need. I hope that we can do on the activities of central Departments, to examine the that right across England. 449 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 450

Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Will the hon. conserving and repairing war memorials but give thought, Gentleman join me in congratulating the Bishop of as many communities are, to updating the records of London on his support for the “Feeding the 5,000” those who lost their lives in the first and second world event in Trafalgar square last Friday? That organisation wars. The theft of inscriptions from war memorials is a looks at how we can use the phenomenal amount of detestable offence, and a further example of the need to food that goes to waste in this country to feed people tackle the theft of metals as urgently as possible. who are in food poverty. Christians (Pakistan) Tony Baldry: The Bishop of London’s leadership on that initiative is excellent, and it is an excellent initiative. 6. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What support the Church Commissioners are providing to Christians Church Buildings (Theft) in Pakistan. [82265]

5. George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): Whether Tony Baldry: The Church of England is very aware of the Church Commissioners have considered English the issues facing the Christian community in Pakistan. Heritage’s guidance on (a) theft of metal from church Two dioceses in the Church of England have strong buildings and (b) replacing lead with modern materials. diocesan links in Pakistan, the diocese of Manchester with Lahore and the diocese of Wakefield with Faisalabad. [82264] Four members of the Manchester diocese are currently Tony Baldry: The theft of metal from churches continues visiting Pakistan. The Archbishop of Canterbury’s Pakistan to be a very serious problem. About 10 churches a day focus group was formed in 2006 to keep him informed suffer from theft. Insurance payouts for the theft of of issues of significance in relation to Pakistan, to assist metal from places of worship have increased by 70%, him in representing his views appropriately in Pakistan, and according to the Association of Chief Police Officers, England and elsewhere, and to maintain positive relations the full cost of metal theft to the domestic economy in support of the Church of Pakistan. across all sectors is upwards of £770 million. Andrew Stephenson: I thank my hon. Friend for that George Hollingbery: The latest English Heritage guidance full answer. What initiatives have been taken to increase note on the theft of metals from church buildings states awareness among Pakistani-background Christians and that Muslims in the UK of how they can support inter-faith religious harmony? “support for the use of…non-traditional materials…would be exceptional.” Tony Baldry: The Archbishop of Canterbury is very However, the guidance note on solar panel installations much concerned about the importance of good relations is relatively liberal. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is among Pakistani-background Christians and Muslims hard to reconcile the two, and does he understand why in this country. When Christian leaders from Pakistan Hambleside Danelaw, an alternative roofing manufacturer visit the UK they are introduced to prominent Pakistani- in my constituency, is clear that the guidance is not in background Muslims so that they are aware of the the interests of churches, their congregations or the situation, and to encourage them to use their influence wider good? and contacts in Pakistan to support persecuted religious communities. The Church of England sent a delegation Tony Baldry: On the substantive issue of the theft of of both Christians and Muslims from the UK to Pakistan lead, the Church remains convinced that making cash in 2009 on the invitation of the Government of Pakistan, scrap metal transactions illegal is the single move that to visit Christian and Muslim community leaders, will have the greatest impact on reducing that crime, Government Ministers and officials. and it is pleased to see that proposal gaining wider acceptance. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Prime Women and the Episcopacy Minister said yesterday that the answer “lies in looking at how the scrap metal market is currently 7. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): regulated.”—[Official Report, 23 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 296.] What assessment the Church Commissioners made of I undertake to investigate in detail my hon. Friend’s the number of dioceses which have voted in favour of specific point about Hambleside Danelaw, and I shall the proposed legislation on women and the episcopacy. write to him. [82266]

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Is my hon. Tony Baldry: The result of the reference of the draft Friend aware that one of the greatest tragedies about legislation to the dioceses was that out of a total of the loss of metal from war memorials, whether they be 44 dioceses, 42 approved of women and the episcopacy. on Church property or elsewhere, is that there is currently no central record kept of the people whose names are Diana Johnson: How will the exceptional level of recorded on them? Will he undertake to ask the Church support from both the laity and the clergy be reflected Commissioners to work with the Imperial War museum, in the passage of the legislation through the House? and indeed the Ministry of Defence, to provide a central register of those whose names appear on war memorials? Tony Baldry: I think that it is clear that there is overwhelming support for women bishops. The outcome Tony Baldry: I would hope that in the run-up to 2014 of the recent vote in the dioceses will be reported to 2018, the centenary of the first world war, churches formally to the General Synod in February, following across the country will not only work on updating, which it will be asked to approve any necessary final 451 Oral Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 452 adjustments to the drafting of the legislation. I certainly are Members of the other place: they are Members of hope that during the lifetime of this Parliament it will Parliament and are entitled to have their views heard. I be possible for me to bring forward a Measure to would suggest that every archbishop and diocesan bishop the House so that we can approve women bishops in the is a significant leader within their community. They are Church of England. entitled to speak out and be heard by the country and the House. The Church of England is a national church St Paul’s Cathedral (Demonstrations) and the bishops are part of the national voice of this country. 8. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): What discussions the Church Commissioners have had on the 2012 Olympics effects of demonstrations outside St Paul’s Cathedral. [82267] 9. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): How many churches Tony Baldry: I understand from the Bishop of London plan to hold community celebrations for the London and the chapter of St Paul’s cathedral that they are in 2012 Olympics. [82268] daily contact with the City of London corporation and the City of London police, as well as with the protestors. Tony Baldry: The ecumenical organisation More than The chapter of St Paul’s and the Church are committed Gold has been set up to help churches to engage with to working towards peaceful solutions with the protestors the Olympics. There are more than 400 Church of and the authorities concerned. England More than Gold champions, which means that more than 400 churches are already organising activities Mr Winnick: Would not that be the best way, to have using More than Gold resources. a continued dialogue, bearing in mind the fact that many if not all of the demonstrators and the people John Mann: Would it not be appropriate for churches who have set in—I have visited them—feel very strongly across the country to follow the magnificent lead of the indeed about the growing inequality of wealth in our joint churches in Bassetlaw, who are at the heart of country? preparing Olympic participatory activities, and are inviting the community into church grounds so that the Olympics Tony Baldry: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. can be fully and actively celebrated? Those concerns have been well reflected by the comments made by the dean and chapter of St Paul’s. Tony Baldry: That is a fantastic example by the church in Bassetlaw, and I hope that every church will Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The London replicate it in all sorts of ways, such as by providing demonstration seems to be adding to an air of tension volunteers for the Olympics and hospitality programmes, between Church and state, and there are other examples hosting one of the many mission teams that are coming of bishops becoming much more involved in Government from overseas to help to give extra impact to activities, policy. What role can my hon. Friend play to calm that and linking hands with other churches to run community quite worrying situation? festivals and hospitality centres. I very much hope that every church in England will consider how they can use Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend must remember and the Olympics as an opportunity to engage with the recognise that both archbishops and a number of bishops wider community. 453 24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 454

Business of the House housing starts across Britain from 32,000 to just 454 across the entire country. In my own region of the north-west, not one single housing start was made. Monday’s cynical 11.32 am choreography was clearly designed to bury bad news. Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of May we have a proper debate on the worsening housing the House give us the business for next week? crisis now that the full facts of the Government’s failure have been revealed? The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Two weeks ago the right hon. Gentleman was kind Young): The business for the week commencing enough to tell me that 28 November will be: “the Queen’s Speech will be held in May to coincide with the fixed MONDAY 28 NOVEMBER—General debate on political election dates”.—[Official Report, 10 November 2011; Vol. 535, developments and security in the middle east, north c. 454.] Africa, the Sahel, and the horn of Africa. But last week his counterpart in the other place, Lord TUESDAY 29 NOVEMBER—My right hon. Friend the Strathclyde, seemed to contradict him by saying that it Chancellor of the Exchequer will make his autumn could be in April. That is despite Government undertakings statement, which will be followed by consideration of given by Lord Wallace during the passage of the Fixed-term Lords Amendments to the London Olympic Games Parliaments Bill that there would be a fixed day in May and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill, followed by for the Queen’s Speech. Based on these assurances, consideration of Lords amendments to the Terrorism Labour peers withdrew an amendment to the Bill which Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill, followed would have set the Queen’s Speech in May after local by consideration of Lords amendments to the Public elections. Will the Leader of the House now clear up the Bodies Bill [Lords], followed by a motion relating to chaos between the Government Front Benchers in the national policy statements relating to ports. two Houses? Will he confirm that it is not his intention WEDNESDAY 30 NOVEMBER—Opposition day (un-allotted to stage the Queen’s Speech just ahead of election day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. purdah? Surely he has no desire to put Her Majesty in Subject to be announced. an invidious position by using her in a politically partisan THURSDAY 1DECEMBER—Motion relating to BBC cuts, pre-election stunt in her diamond jubilee year? followed by a general debate relating to debt advice and Every week demonstrates that the Government’s debt management services. The subjects for these debates economic policy is hurting but not working. The Office were nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. for National Statistics revealed a 3.5% real-terms fall in The provisional business for the week commencing average incomes, while chief executives and directors 5 December will include: enjoyed a 15% increase in median earnings this year alone. Meanwhile youth unemployment passed 1 million, MONDAY 5DECEMBER—Business to be nominated by showing the brutal price our young people are paying the Backbench Business Committee. for the Government’s failed choices on the economy. TUESDAY 6DECEMBER—General debate on the economy. Long-term youth unemployment has risen 77% since Colleagues will also wish to be reminded that the the Government scrapped the future jobs fund. As the House will meet at 11.30 am on Tuesday 29 November. economy continues to flatline, instead of Government action all we are hearing from the Prime Minister is his Ms Eagle: I should like to begin by paying my own latest list of excuses. Last year it was the snow, this year tribute to Alan Keen, whose death was announced to it has been the royal wedding, civil servants, trade the House this week. He was a dedicated champion of unions and employment rights—and now it is the eurozone. his constituents. Many of us have happy memories of The Prime Minister is like an Eton schoolboy, facing Alan, especially of the Tea Room football banter that rustication by his headmaster, who will say anything we all shared with him. My thoughts go out to his wife and blame anyone rather than take responsibility for Ann and the family at this very difficult time. the consequences of his actions. Will the Leader of the Mr Speaker, this week you let it be known in no House now admit that these policies are not working uncertain terms that the leaking in advance of statements and urge the Chancellor to announce an economic is a gross discourtesy to the House. On Monday, you rethink that puts jobs first in next week’s autumn statement? warned the Secretary of State for Communities and In opposition, the Prime Minister said that lobbying Local Government about the disclosure of his housing was the next big scandal waiting to happen, but after statement in the weekend papers. Less than 48 hours 18 months and the loss of a Cabinet Minister there is later, not only was the Government’s energy statement still no sign of the promised register of lobbying interests. leaked, but the fact that there was to be a statement at Today there are disturbing reports that Ministers’ spouses all was tweeted to the world half an hour before the and partners will remain free to lobby the Government Secretary of State could be bothered to inform his for private companies under any new rules. This week, it opposite number or the House. Can we now take it that was also revealed that a serving Conservative peer and it is the Government’s intention to replace the Order ex-Chief Whip has been appointed UK representative Paper with the Twitter feed of The Guardian? Does the for the Cayman Islands in order to oppose any further Leader of the House deplore this behaviour, and will he regulation of offshore tax havens. Will the Leader of give me a personal assurance that it will never happen the House tell us when the Government propose to again? address the increasingly urgent need for tough regulation On housing, the Government’s rushed-out PR blitzkrieg in this area, and what is the Government’s position on on Monday came the day before official figures, which serving Conservative peers lobbying against regulation they will have seen, showed a complete collapse of of tax havens? 455 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 456

Sir George Young: May I begin on a consensual note that has failed the country—it is no wonder that the and endorse every word that the hon. Lady said about shadow Chancellor, by his own admission, is often to be our former colleague Alan Keen? Our thoughts are very found in tears. much with Ann and the family at this difficult time for them. Several hon. Members rose— On the statements and announcements earlier this Mr Speaker: Order. As usual, there is extensive interest. week, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for However, Backbench Business Committee business is to Communities and Local Government, in response to a follow, and it is important that we allow adequate time point of order, explained the background to what happened for that. Brevity is therefore of the essence—and we will on Monday. Inevitably, as a background to the housing be led in that important exercise by Karen Bradley. statement, other organisations were involved and their consent was needed to make the statement. Therefore it Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): May was more difficult—although equally essential—for the we have a debate on the Work programme and the Government to maintain strict confidentiality about successes on the ground? Last month, I met Staffordshire the announcement. I confirm that I deplore any leaking Moorlands community and voluntary services, which of statements that should be made first to the House had taken on 56 of the most-difficult-to-place individuals and I am happy to remind my colleagues of the ministerial and had already found full-time work for four and code and what is expected by you, Mr Speaker. part-time work for two. It would be useful for colleagues We inherited a deplorable housing position. The outgoing to share these on-the-ground success stories. Government admitted that they did not give it the priority that it deserved. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate. It Lady will welcome the initiatives announced on Monday might be possible to have one after the autumn statement by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and if there is a debate on the economy. I welcome the Local Government to kick-start the housing market, to involvement of the voluntary sector in the Work get public land into play and to make it easier for programme. Citizens Advice, Mencap, the Prince’s Trust first-time buyers to buy their first home. and Action for Blind People will be involved in delivering the Work programme and helping to find sustainable On the date of the Queen’s Speech, I said on long-term jobs for those currently out of work. 10 November: “The Queen’s Speech will be announced in the usual way.”— Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): On [Official Report, 10 November 2011; Vol. 535, c. 454.] Monday, the Prime Minister promised a housing revolution. On Tuesday, the shocking statistics were released showing I am not in a position to confirm a specific date—as the a 99% collapse in the building of affordable homes and hon. Lady knows, it is subject to progress in another homes for social rent. The code on the release of official place—but I can confirm that all constitutional proprieties statistics states that statistics should be released in a way will be observed come the state opening of Parliament. that “promotes trust”. May we have a statement to the The hon. Lady did not remind the House of what House on whether the Prime Minister, the Deputy action the Labour party took to deal with executive pay Prime Minister and the Minister for Housing and Local and the widening differential between executive pay and Government knew of those shocking statistics before average pay, to which I referred at the last business on Monday offering the latest false dawn to the people questions. As she will know, we are consulting on the of England? matter—consultation ends tomorrow—and we welcome the High Pay Commission’s contribution. We are consulting Sir George Young: The statistics to which the on shareholder votes on executive pay, reforming hon. Gentleman refers were put out by the Homes and remuneration committees, including the possibility of Communities Agency on a date arranged some time an employee representative, greater transparency and a ago, and it would have been wrong—it would have much stronger link between pay and performance. breached the code of practice on statistics—for any Minister to have referred to them on Monday. I was amazed that the hon. Lady had the nerve to mention lobbying. The outgoing Labour Government Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Signs near motorway refused to implement a Select Committee recommendation service stations read “Tiredness Kills. Take a Break”, of a statutory register of lobbyists. In the coalition yet parking companies are driving motorists back on to agreement, we committed to introducing that register, the motorways in contravention of those signs. Is it and consultation on the proposals will begin shortly. We really the role of the state, through the Driver and would welcome any advice that she might have. Vehicle Licensing Agency, to assist private parking firms Finally, the hon. Lady mentioned the economy. I was that are at the limits of legality? May we have a debate interested to read that apparently the Leader of the on the matter? Perhaps the Home Affairs Select Committee Opposition will say today: could also investigate these rogue parking companies. “The biggest economic gamble in a generation has failed”. Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s I agree, and I am glad that he has seen the light. It was concern. I hope he recognises that those signs perform a the reckless gamble that he and the shadow Chancellor useful purpose in promoting safety on motorways by took in the last Parliament that got us into this mess— encouraging people to take a break rather than carry on borrowing beyond our means, claiming to have abolished driving. If there were any unauthorised benefit from boom and bust and completely failing to regulate the those signs of the type that my hon. Friend has described, banks properly. Now they want to increase the deficit I would of course be happy to take it up with the by more than £20 billion. It is their economic strategy Secretary of State for Transport. 457 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 458

Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): The Monday, and I will ensure that the Foreign Office Metropolitan police have just announced that they have Minister who handles the debate comes fully briefed to arrested their first suspect in computer hacking. This deal with the specific point that the right hon. Lady has marks phase 2 of the hacking scandal. Does the Leader raised. of the House think that there might be merit in having a debate, which would allow us to test the remit of the Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Leveson inquiry to see whether it is wide enough to Do the Government think that the European Union incorporate this new sinister development as well as summit at the end of next week is of such little consequence look at the recent revelation that the Mulcaire evidence that it does not require any discussion before it takes file contains a suggestion that intelligence service profiles place? Does my right hon. Friend recall that there used were part of his information? to be a regular debate before each European summit? Why has that practice been abandoned? Do the Government Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman think that nothing of consequence will be discussed at for that information. If there has been an arrest, he will the summit? understand the difficulties of debating matters relating to it in this Chamber. He will know that the Leveson Sir George Young: The practice has been abandoned inquiry is sitting at this moment, looking at these issues, because of paragraph 145 of the Wright Committee as is the Culture, Media and Sport Committee. I hope report, which specifically mentioned the two pre-European that there will be adequate opportunities—both in the Council debates that formerly took place in Government House and outside it—to pursue the agenda to which time. The Wright Committee recommended that that the hon. Gentleman refers. debate and the other set piece debates should be transferred to the Backbench Business Committee along with the Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Will time in which those debates took place. That has now the Leader of the House grant us a debate as soon as happened. My hon. Friend should go to the Backbench possible on the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel Business Committee with his request for a debate on on Climate Change in the light of its recent report this particular matter. I have to say to him that it is not suggesting that the extreme weather events we were as though we have not debated Europe in this Chamber: previously promised may not occur for another two or we had a debate on the petition on the referendum; we three decades and the release of several thousand more had a motion to approve the budget on 8 November; we e-mails from the East Anglia university climate research had a motion on Croatia on Tuesday; and we had a unit showing that many scientists are privately lukewarmists general debate on the UK chairmanship of the Council rather than alarmists about the climate but are afraid to of Europe. It is not the case that these important issues say so in public? Secondly, the IPCC system is being have gone by default in the Chamber. systematically abused and Government officials have been urging scientists to come out with evidence biased Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): in the direction of alarmism lest the Government appear Yesterday the Scottish Parliament discussed the Act of foolish— Settlement, and there was broad and overwhelming agreement that the discrimination against Catholics Mr Speaker: Order. This is an abuse. The right hon. must come to an end. When the Government consider Gentleman is an immensely senior Member. He had sexual equality and the succession, will the right hon. heard my exhortation to brevity and wilfully defied it. It Gentleman ensure that the House gets the opportunity really will not do. to debate this ongoing discrimination against Catholics?

Sir George Young: I understand my right hon. Friend’s Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman knows, strong views on this subject. He will know that a statement there will be a Bill on the royal succession, and I hope it on related issues was given yesterday by the Secretary of will be possible to debate the important issues he has State for Energy and Climate Change when there might just raised in that context. have been an opportunity for him to amplify his views. I cannot promise a debate in the short term, but I hope Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we have a my right hon. Friend is successful in applying for a debate on the increasing level of crisis in the eurozone, debate on this important subject in Westminster Hall or following the news that yesterday even Germany, which on the Adjournment. everyone was hoping was going to bail out the eurozone, was able to find buyers for only two thirds of its debt Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): The independent bonds for the first time since it scrapped the Deutschmark commission on and inquiry into the events that took and adopted the euro? place in Bahrain earlier this year was published yesterday. It shows what we all suspected and have heard about Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises an important over the last few days—that psychological and physical issue. The Government receive a wide range of advice abuse and torture took place there. In Mondays’ debate, on a number of matters, including the international will the Foreign Secretary indicate the response of the economic situation and outlook. A range of contingency Foreign and Commonwealth Office to this very good plans are in hand. It would be inappropriate to comment report? on what may or may not happen, however, or on the detail of that advice. Sir George Young: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for bringing to the House’s attention this important Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Two report and what it says about the abuses and atrocities weeks ago we learned that the Home Secretary had she mentioned. As she says, there will be a debate on ordered a secret pilot that left our borders unprotected. 459 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 460

This week we learn that French company Eamus Cork Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right, and he Solutions, famed for sleeping guards and letting detainees will know that in the last 15 months the Home Office wander off, has been given a contract to protect our has taken effective action and more people are now borders, and the Government now want, at huge cost to being deported than was the case in previous years. My the taxpayer, to fly volunteers in from Russia, South hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration wants to make Africa and India to cover our borders. May we have a further progress, and I shall ask him to write to my hon. debate on the effectiveness of this Government’s UK Friend setting out the further action we are taking to border controls? make sure that those who are not entitled to stay in the country leave it. Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Select Committee on Home Affairs is currently Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): On 3 November I conducting an inquiry into precisely the issue he raises. raised an issue in respect of the public duty costs We take border control seriously. We are introducing a allowance. Uncharacteristically, I have not yet received UK border agency. The situation we inherited from the a response from the Leader of the House as to why outgoing Labour Government was less than satisfactory, £1.7 million has been paid to former Prime Ministers. and we are now putting the deficiencies right. That money has obviously gone through the Government’s books in some way, so may we have a list of exactly Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Given that striking what duties were performed, and whether invoices and public sector workers will in effect be saying next week receipts had to be provided? that the rest of us should pay more tax to support their pensions, may we have a debate in Government time on Sir George Young: I am sorry if the hon. Lady has their premature and irresponsible actions? not received any information that she is entitled to. I will chase this matter up the moment these business Sir George Young: I endorse what my hon. Friend questions finish, and make sure that she gets an answer says about the impact of this strike. I hope that, even at from the appropriate Minister. this relatively late moment, many of those who are contemplating striking will not do so, as a strike would Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The TaxPayers Alliance have a damaging impact on the economy. Negotiations has recently published a new and compelling report on the pension deal are continuing. It is my view—and, called “Industrial Masochism”, which demonstrates how I think, the view of many in this House—that it is a the carbon floor price threatens the jobs of tens of generous offer, striking a fairer balance between taxpayer thousands of British workers as energy-intensive businesses and public sector employee. The best thing that could relocate overseas. Could we find time for an urgent happen would be for those involved to accept the offer debate on the impact of the Government’s climate that is on the table, to call off the strike action and to change policies on British industry, so that workers in get on with rebuilding the economy. these vital manufacturing sectors can learn why their jobs have been sacrificed on the high altar of global Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Witnesses before a warming? Select Committee have said that the inquiry into the Werritty affair was rushed and inadequate, and possibly Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend in breach of the ministerial code as it was not conducted for his question. As he will know, following the statement by the only person who is the enforcer of the code: the by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change independent adviser on ministerial affairs. As the inquiry a document was published setting out the impact of was conducted for reasons of political expediency to climate change policies on households and industry. I avoid embarrassment for the Government, and as new think my hon. Friend will find that that document evidence is available, should we not have a full legitimate comes to a slightly different conclusion from the TaxPayers inquiry conducted by the only person authorised to Alliance. I would welcome a debate on this matter, as undertake it: Sir Philip Mawer? would my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) who spoke a few minutes Sir George Young: No, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman ago, but I cannot promise that we can find time for that did not intend to cast any aspersions on the person who in the near future. carried out that inquiry, Sir Gus O’Donnell. It was a full inquiry; it was not rushed, as the hon. Gentleman Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Will the Leader of implied, and I think it brought the matter to a satisfactory the House invite the Prime Minister to come to the resolution. House to explain why he did not feel the need to declare his land deal with a major Conservative party donor Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May we have a debate and lobbyist? Following on from the question asked by on deportation? On occasions too numerous to mention, my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul when I investigate through the UK Border Agency the Flynn), what is the point of having an independent immigration status of people who come to see me in my standards commissioner if his advice is never sought? constituency surgeries, I discover that they had exhausted their possible remedies many years ago and had been Sir George Young: The right hon. Gentleman might told they had to leave the jurisdiction. They are exhorted have put that question to the previous Prime Minister. to leave it voluntarily, but of course they have no desire On the first issue, my right hon. Friend the Prime to do so but want to stay in the UK indefinitely. Until Minister took the necessary advice from those at No. 10, we get to grips with the whole issue of people leaving and that advice was that he did not have to register that the jurisdiction who have no right to be in the jurisdiction, particular piece of property. The information is in the we will never sort out the problem of immigration. public domain anyway because of the Land Registry. 461 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 462

Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): There is my constituents have expressed concern to me, as they real concern in Otley among staff, students and the feel that trade union cash should not buy a vote or an local community about the conversion of Prince Henry’s amendment in this House. to an academy. May we have a debate on the rules surrounding conversion to academy status, because at present it can be done on a single, even a casting, vote Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate. on the governing body, and consultation can simply be My view is that it would be in the interest of the Labour whatever the school says it should be? That is clearly party to have a slightly weaker link with the trade unsatisfactory, and it needs to be changed. unions. I think that many Labour Members, in their heart of hearts, believe that the pension deal on the table is a generous one which they would like to commend Sir George Young: I say to my hon. Friend— but cannot because of the links to which my hon. [Interruption.] Those rules are—[Interruption.] Those Friend has just referred. rules—[Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. It is very discourteous for all Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Can the Leader of sorts of finger-pointing across the Chamber to take the House clear up his confusion over the Queen’s place. The hon. Member for Leeds North West Speech? He had previously said that it would be in May. (Greg Mulholland) has asked—[Interruption.] Order. It was claimed that the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill [Interruption.] Order. I am not looking for, or expecting— would create a more predictable parliamentary timetable, [Interruption.] Order. I am not looking for, or expecting, and during its passage Lord Wallace, on behalf of the any response from the hon. Gentleman, and it is not for Government, committed them to May-to-May Sessions. the hon. Gentleman to sit in his place shaking his head. Yet last week Lord Strathclyde referred only to “spring”, The hon. Gentleman asked—[Interruption.] Order. The which we know means, in ministerial terms, from the hon. Gentleman had better watch himself very carefully. first crocuses in February to sometime in the middle of He has asked a question of the Leader of the House, June. The Leader of the House can clear this up now, so and the Leader of the House is courteously responding. will the Queen’s Speech be in May—yes or no? The hon. Gentleman will sit quietly and listen to that response. If he finds himself unable to do that, he Sir George Young: I refer to the answer that I gave to knows what his alternative is. the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle); we will announce the date of the Queen’s Speech in due course. Sir George Young: The rules to which my hon. Friend If the right hon. Gentleman can be patient, he will find refers are exactly the same as those that pertained under that the moment will come. The Fixed-term Parliaments the previous regime, and which we inherited from the Act fixes the date of the next general election in May outgoing Government. I will draw his concern to the 2015—that is a fixed event. The actual date of the attention of the relevant Department and see whether Queen’s Speech between now and then depends on the there is any role for the responsible Minister to play, but progress of legislation. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman I have to say that, by and large, conversion to academy will use whatever influence he has in the other place to status has been welcomed by local communities. make sure that the Bills before it complete their passage in good time. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May we have a debate on Lords reform? I do not know whether the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Has my right hon. Leader of the House is a fan of “I’m a Celebrity…Get Friend seen the e-petition from my constituent Mr Colin Me Out of Here!”, but would not one interim solution Riches entitled, “Support The Best Policy for Children; to the overcrowding he is causing down the other end of give Both Parents Equality in Law”? May we have an this building be a new reality TV show, perhaps called urgent debate on the Norgrove report and ensure that “Peer Pressure”, as that would provide an efficient and fathers have equal access to children? entertaining way to cull the rapidly increasing population of the unelected? Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman may find that for drawing the House’s attention to the independent when his parliamentary career here finishes he does not review panel, which has just reported. My right hon. end up in the upper House. I say to him that one of the and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor is considering problems that we inherited from the outgoing Government all the recommendations in detail and will respond in was the total failure—[[HON.MEMBERS: “Oh no.”] Oh due course. We want a family justice system that meets yes. We inherited their total failure, after three elections the needs of those at the heart of the system—the where there had been overwhelming Labour majorities, children. to deliver on their election manifesto and reform the upper House. We have a draft Bill going through at the Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East moment, which is being examined by a Joint Committee—I Cleveland) (Lab): May we have a debate to discuss the am sure that it will be interested in the hon. Gentleman’s challenging of racism in politics? If such a debate were views. The person who increased the size of the House secured, I would like to raise the issue of the St Andrews of Lords more than anybody else was Tony Blair. university Conservative association burning an effigy of US President Barack Obama last Friday. Almost one Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): May I echo the call third of students at the university are American. Does by the shadow Leader of the House for a debate on the Leader of the House believe that such incidents are lobbying, particularly that by trade unions? Many of conducive to Britain’s relationship with its closest ally? 463 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 464

Sir George Young: I would condemn what happened The Backbench Business Committee carries out its in that particular club, and I hope that there is no Daily Mail rent-a-petition, rent-a-debate duties, but it is repetition of that incident in any organisation associated for the Government to provide time to discuss this vital with my party. issue for our nation’s future.

Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Sir George Young: I have to say to the right hon. Please may we have a debate about exports and, specifically, Gentleman that if we had not implemented the Wright the success of British exporters? The latest data for the Committee’s recommendations, he might well have been first three quarters of this year show a 13% increase in one of the first to criticise us for going back on a clear exports, with faster growth in exports to the BRIC election commitment. The fact of the matter is that the countries—Brazil, Russia, India and China—especially Government have given some of the power and patronage China. they used to have away. We have given it to the Backbench Business Committee, which gets roughly one day a Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend week, and it is up to that Committee to decide what it for drawing attention to one of the ambitions of our does with that time. One set of debates that was handed economic policy, which is to switch the emphasis on over to that Committee, along with the defence debates, growth from spending and borrowing to investment was the pre-European Council debates. The Committee and exports. The fact that we are not in the eurozone has chosen not to have such a debate. That is a consequence enables us to have a competitive exchange rate, which in of setting up the Backbench Business Committee and turn gives our exporters a head start over those in some transferring the days to it. other countries. Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): The Leader of the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Are the Government House may be aware that Welcome to Yorkshire, the delaying the Queen’s Speech because the economy is official tourism agency for Yorkshire, is due to lose its flatlining, because they have run out of ideas or because public funding in April 2012. May we have an urgent their legislation is so bad for Britain that they cannot statement from the Minister for Tourism and Heritage, get it through the other place? Are we ever going to have my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare the Queen’s Speech? (John Penrose), setting out what the Government might do to bridge this funding gap in the next financial year, Sir George Young: The Government’s legislative in order to protect the Yorkshire tourism industry from programme has made good progress through this Chamber potentially catastrophic circumstances? and is now in the upper House, where we are awaiting the Welfare Reform Bill, the Health and Social Care Bill Sir George Young: As my hon. Friend will have and the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders discovered, other Members in the House think that Bill. I hope that those Bills will receive legitimate and their own county deserves generous support on funding proper consideration down there and then come back. tourism. Yorkshire was the county that received more When the Government have got their Bills through this cash than any other area of the country, and it is having House, it will then be time to give the date of the to go through the same process as everyone else in Queen’s Speech, but not until then. adjusting to the new regime. It has an advantage, in that Yorkshire received £10 million of regional development Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): May we have a debate agency funding for the financial year 2011-12, because on the maintenance of railway lines in Wales? The of a three-year agreement between Welcome to Yorkshire Conwy Valley railway line in my constituency should be and Yorkshire Forward, which other regions did not maintained to route availability 7 standard. A commercial get. I can say to him only that there may be other proposition to use the line to carry goods has been sources of funding—the regional growth fund, the rejected because the line has not been maintained to European regional development fund and the rural that standard, thus costing jobs and investment which development programme for England—to which he are much needed at this time. may turn for assistance.

Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I would like for his question because, as a former Secretary of State to return to the issue of the housing statement and the for Transport, I am interested in promoting use of the Homes and Communities Agency figures. They show railway. The issue that he has raised is a technical one that in London the number of social rented homes for Network Rail, but I will raise it with my right hon. started between April and September this year was just Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to see 56, which is 7,469 down on the figure for the previous whether we can make some progress and expand that six months. If the Government knew that the figures route for the use to which my hon. Friend has just were going to be released on Tuesday, why was the referred. statement not made on the same day?

Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): The Leader Sir George Young: The statement was made in its own of the House must not keep hiding behind this wretched right, independent of the statistics to which the hon. Wright Committee recommendation abolishing debates Lady refers, and I do not think that she should link on Europe. I know that we have had specific debates on them in the way that she has. I hope that she will this and that, but the hon. Member for Harwich and welcome what was said on Monday, which was aimed at North Essex (Mr Jenkin) is absolutely right to say kick-starting the housing market and doing better than that we need a broad debate on Europe, particularly at the outgoing Labour Government on housing starts this stage of our historic relationship with the EU. and housing completions. 465 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 466

Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): time. Will the Leader of the House please give some May we have a debate on the very long-standing regional Government time so that we can debate that important disparity in rail ticket pricing, particularly given the issue and so that the House can make clear its view on a welcome investment in rail infrastructure? Sadly, that ban on smoking with passengers and children, and also will not directly benefit many of those living in the west on an outright ban? country, who are at risk of becoming the poor country cousins on rail transport. Sir George Young: I commend the hon. Gentleman’s work and that of the all-party group on smoking and Sir George Young: I have some sympathy with the health, which has played an active role in campaigning point that my hon. Friend makes, because I sometimes and was very influential in the last Parliament in making see him on the same train as me when I go to my progress on the ban on smoking in public places. I constituency. I will raise with my right hon. Friend the cannot promise Government support for his ten-minute Secretary of State for Transport the issue as to whether rule Bill—he will have to come along tomorrow and see there is a disparity between ticket prices and investment what happens—and I see some difficulties in trying to in infrastructure and see whether there is any role for enforce a ban on all smoking in cars. That might have to her to play in getting a more level playing field. wait until public opinion has moved on.

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): The Business Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): May we have a debate Secretary gave a speech yesterday on the dilution of on the equity of child benefit payments, particularly employee rights. It was accompanied by a written statement when parents are separated but still have joint child care in this House and a fleeting mention in yesterday’s responsibilities? Opposition day debate. He now seems to be indicating, through the media, that he did not agree with a word Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises a serious that he said in either his speech or his written statement. issue. Sadly, more and more families are splitting up May we have an urgent statement in this House on the and there is an issue about whether the child benefit role of employee rights and what the Government’s should go to one parent or another. I think I am right to intentions are by making it easier to fire employees say that at the moment it cannot be split. That is also rather than hire them? the case with other child-related benefits. I will raise the question with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of Sir George Young: The Secretary of State for Business, the Exchequer, who has responsibility for it, and see Innovation and Skills was in the Chamber yesterday whether there is any way of coming to an arrangement answering questions during his speech and he spoke in whereby those benefits or tax credits are apportioned in the House after he made his speech to the Engineering a fair way to reflect the responsibilities that underpin Employers Federation. We had an opportunity to cross- them. examine the Secretary of State only yesterday on precisely the issues that the hon. Gentleman has just raised. David Wright (Telford) (Lab): The Leader of the House has debating time on his hands. May we have a Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Earlier this specific debate about the provision of social rented month, despite the considered statement of the Chief housing in this country? There are 20,000 people in Secretary to the Treasury on 2 November, West Midlands Telford looking for rented housing in the social sector ambulance service workers voted to strike next week, and thousands of them are in urgent need. May we have threatening to bring chaos to a service that deals in a debate as soon as possible on rented housing provision? matters of life and death. May we have a debate on the We have heard already from my hon. Friend the Member implications of that strike, because I fear it will be very for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) about the deleterious to the health of many people in the west collapse in the provision of new social rented homes midlands? and we need a debate urgently.

Sir George Young: I hope that people in the west Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman will know, midlands have listened to my hon. Friend and will I have announced that there will be an Opposition day. reflect before they go on strike, if that is what they are Perhaps his bid was heard by his friends on the Front planning to do next Wednesday, and on the consequences Bench. He will also know that waiting lists doubled for schools and, in some cases, for health. I hope that if under the last Labour Government and that is the the Labour party has any influence it might bring that problem we are now trying to address. to bear on the trade unions, condemn the strikes and persuade them to abandon them and accept the generous Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): The offer that is on the table. sympathy that my constituents feel for public sector workers who face a freeze in their pay and changes to Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): The Leader their pension contributions will be significantly eroded of the House will be aware that a YouGov poll this by the inconvenience and worse that will be caused by week showed that 59% of people agreed with a total the proposed strikes. May we have a debate on the ban on smoking in cars with passengers, a view supported legitimacy of those strikes, so that we can see whether by the majority of all three major parties’ supporters. Labour Members will stand up for their constituents or The British Lung Foundation, of which I know the their paymasters? Leader of the House is a supporter, says that 86% of parents support a ban when children are present. My Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. ten-minute rule Bill on the subject is 10th on the list We are trying to get a fairer balance between the public tomorrow and is likely to run out of parliamentary sector employees and the taxpayer, who pays a very 467 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 468 large percentage of the pension contributions. My hon. comes from both sides of the England and Wales border. Friend raises a good point. I detect public sympathy Will my right hon. Friend programme a debate to ebbing away from those who are planning to strike and discuss the future of SMEs and support for them, with they would do well to reflect on that before they go particular reference to cross-border issues? ahead with their action on Wednesday. Sir George Young: There will be an opportunity to Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Would it debate that issue in the debate on the economy that I not be useful to have a debate in the very near future on announced at the beginning of this question session. the obsessive hatred—there is no other way to describe We are determined to make more resources available to it—that the Tory party has and always has had for the SMEs and, as part of Project Merlin, the Chancellor trade union movement? Trade unionists need no lectures announced that the banks intend to lend £190 billion of about public service and patriotism from the Conservative new credit to businesses, which is a significant increase party. on the £179 billion in the previous year. We are taking Sir George Young: That is a travesty of my party’s other action, such as reducing the corporation tax rate view about trade unions. I was a member of a trade for small businesses. I would welcome my hon. Friend’s union until I was expelled and described as a “pin-striped contribution to that debate and the response from Ministers bovver boy” by ASTMS, the Association of Scientific, will set out all the action we are taking to help SMEs. Technical and Managerial Staffs, back in the 1970s. The trade unions have a legitimate role to play in this Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Research reported country but we think that the very strong links between last week has found that 10,000 babies are born each the trade unions and one political party are unhealthy year damaged by smoking and the consumption of for that party. alcohol and drugs during pregnancy. Some 6,000 of those babies are affected by foetal alcohol spectrum Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Our disorders. Is it not time for the Government to make a constituents in care homes are among the most vulnerable statement on and bring forward proposals to deal with we represent and the Care Quality Commission is this tragic situation? supposed to be one of their guardians, yet some of its recommendations are not always implemented. May we Sir George Young: The Government are very anxious have a debate on the important subject of how we to drive down perinatal and antenatal mortality and we protect those very vulnerable constituents? have taken a number of measures already to promote public health. The Health and Social Care Bill, which is Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is quite right that now going through the House, will, I hope, make some sometimes action is not taken. The answer is that the progress in that direction. I will bring the hon. Gentleman’s Care Quality Commission has a range of enforcement suggestion to the attention of my right hon. Friend the powers at its disposal and his message is that it should Secretary of State for Health and ask whether there is use those more often to address the problems he has more we can do to diminish the number of babies who described. The CQC has a range of enforcement powers are born damaged or, sadly, die because of excess alcohol that it can use to bring a provider back into compliance consumption by their mother. and in the case of the most serious failings it can cancel a provider’s registration, which would simply result in Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): Through that provider’s closure. My right hon. Friend the Secretary the all-party parliamentary group for local growth, of State for Health has emphasised to the CQC the enterprise zones and local enterprise partnerships, it is importance of driving up standards and using all the clear that the organisations involved in enterprise zones powers at its disposal to do that. understand the importance of opportunities for small and medium-sized enterprises in enterprise zones. Seajacks Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): May I press the in Great Yarmouth is likely to be the first organisation Leader of the House? Given the shockingly low number to go into an enterprise zone, highlighting how important of affordable housing starts—just 454 in the six months SMEs can be for growth and job creation. May we have from April, a figure that was revealed the day after the a debate in the Chamber on the importance of SMEs, Government’s much-trumpeted housing strategy—may particularly with reference to opportunities in enterprise we have a debate in Government time on the crisis in zones? our construction industry? Sir George Young: I hope that the hon. Gentleman Sir George Young: I believe that my hon. Friend is the will welcome the statement made by my right hon. chairman of the all-party group and I commend him Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government for his activity in that regard. I hope there will be an on Monday, which addressed the parlous state of the opportunity when we debate the economy to say a little housing and construction industry we inherited, the more about SMEs. We have extended the level of small action we are taking to bring public land back into use, business rate relief for two years. We have a new fund of the incentives we are giving to local authorities to enterprise capital funds, which I hope will help, and develop and the help we are getting through building there is also entrepreneur’s relief and other initiatives societies and banks for first-time buyers. We are taking such as the enterprise finance guarantee, all of which I effective action to kick-start the sluggish housing economy hope will help SMEs to grow and employ more people. that we inherited. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The National Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): The economy Audit Office has revealed the shocking statistic that of my constituency is almost entirely made up of small £2 billion is owed to the Ministry of Justice by convicted and medium-sized enterprises, public support for which criminals in outstanding confiscation orders and unpaid 469 Business of the House24 NOVEMBER 2011 Business of the House 470

[Mr Philip Hollobone] but at preventing quasi-religious organisations from benefiting from a tax break. It would be quite wrong if court fines. That figure is £400 million higher than in Hindus were penalised and I very much hope that the the previous year. Given that it is the policy of Her dialogue that my hon. Friend has with the ambassador Majesty’s Government to reduce the number of people will enable progress to be made and reassurances to be in prison and increase the number of criminals who are given to the Hindu community in Hungary. fined, may we have an oral statement from the Secretary of State for Justice, so that we can hold him to account Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The decision to for this shocking state of affairs? extend small business rate relief until October 2012, which the Leader of the House has mentioned, has Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises an important been hugely welcome in Pendle, where more than 1,000 issue. That figure has gone up because the courts are small businesses fall into the relevant category and have using the relevant provision more often than previously. benefited from paying either reduced business rates or Also, some of the confiscations are for very large sums none at all. May we have a debate on the success of that indeed—I think there is one of £189 million—which scheme and on what more the Government can do to explains why there has been an increase. I can tell my support small businesses, which are the backbone of the hon. Friend that a blitz on this, using a range of powers British economy? such as attachment of earnings, seizure of assets and Sir George Young: I very much hope that the Chancellor other measures, is planned to try to get that figure of the Exchequer tuned in and heard my hon. Friend down. make that bid, and that he is able to take it into account as he prepares his remarks for next Tuesday. As I have Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Last Sunday in said, I hope there will be an opportunity to debate the Hungary, legislation was passed that withdrew recognition extensive support that we are giving to SMEs when we of Hinduism as a recognised religion in the country. have the debate on the general economy. That threatens not only people’s right to celebrate and worship in accordance with the religion of their choice Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): The Leader but the land-ownings of people who celebrate that of the House will be aware that last year the House religion. So far, the Hungarian ambassador refuses to voted to raise the subsidy for post offices by up to take delegations representing those Hindus in this country £500 million, but there is no accountability to the and, equally, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary House about how that money is spent, where it is spent has been unable to intervene in this process. May we and what criteria are used. May we have an urgent have an urgent debate in the House on the protection of debate on that, because I believe that the Post Office is religious minorities in countries where they are threatened failing in its delivery of post offices, and we might be in this way? able to reopen the post offices in Wangford, Walberswick and Blythburgh? Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s for raising the issue. I understand that our ambassador concern. I wonder whether this is a subject that the would be very happy to meet him and talk it through Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills and that our ambassador has already raised the matter might look at and press with the Post Office. I will raise with the Hungarian authorities. As I understand it, the it with ministerial colleagues to see whether we can get legislation is aimed not at discriminating against Hindus some accountability for the large sum she has mentioned. 471 24 NOVEMBER 2011 472 Points of Order Backbench Business 12.24 pm [UN-ALLOTTED DAY] Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will have heard in DEFRA questions a couple of hours ago the Under-Secretary of State for BAE Systems Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), tell the hon. Member Mr Speaker: Just before I call the right hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) that he had protected for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) to move the the budget for the wildlife crime unit and for raising motion, I stress for the convenience of the House that awareness about the need for people not to bring animal the six-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions will products back into this country when they go on holiday. take effect after the speech by the shadow Minister, That rang alarm bells for me because I asked the which I think will be the fourth speech in the debate. Under-Secretary how much he was contributing to the wildlife crime unit this year and he replied, in a 12.27 pm parliamentary answer in March, that he had cut his Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I contribution to that budget. Also, the budget for activity beg to move, at airports and the “Don’t bring me back” campaign That this House urges BAE Systems to act to preserve the was about £45,000 under the Labour Government and UK’s defence production skills base and, as a recipient of enormous has fallen to less than £25,000 per annum, so I wanted resources over many years from the UK taxpayer, to deploy those to set the House straight and to give the Minister the resources in such a way as to protect the nation’s manufacturing opportunity to correct the record as soon as possible. capability. Mr Speaker: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for On 27 September, BAE Systems, which is Britain’s her point of order. My responsibilities do not extend to biggest engineering employer, delivered an agonising the financing of the fight against wildlife crime and I do shock to its work force. It announced that it intended to not think there is a matter for the Chair here. One could lay off 3,000 employees in its plants across the country. be forgiven for thinking that the hon. Lady was seeking In this process it will be closing the production plant at to continue the debate that took place at Question Brough in my constituency, thereby terminating the Time, but that would be an uncharitable view for me to jobs of almost 900 skilled workers and staff. That was a take. Knowing her as I do, I know that she would not shock, but not a surprise because the previous weekend engage in that sort of unworthy endeavour. She has put the newspapers had published a leak about those plans, her thoughts on the record and if the Minister were here which were in breach of all BAE’s codes of corporate he could respond, but he is not, so he cannot. responsibility. This cruel treatment of a loyal, decent and hard-working work force was, frankly, a disgrace. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): As I shall point out, that was not the only disgraceful On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will be aware, aspect of this decision. further to the point that my hon. Friend the Member The symbolism of this retrenchment could hardly be for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom starker. Both aerospace and defence are massively important Blenkinsop) made, of the disgraceful actions of Tory businesses for the United Kingdom. BAE is by far the students at St Andrews university on Friday night when biggest company in either industry in Britain. The size they burned an effigy of President Obama. The Courier of the cutback is grievous and grimly symptomatic of newspaper has today reported that this action has failed the decline in manufacturing in this country—so far, so to receive condemnation from the Tory leader and that bad—but there is a risk in this storm of statistics and it has received widespread coverage in the United States. grand economic strategy that we lose sight of what On behalf of the people of Fife, may I make it clear that really matters. What matters most is the misery that the we absolutely condemn those actions? Has the Foreign decision visits on individuals, families and communities: Secretary indicated to you, Mr Speaker— the destruction of their hopes and the blighting of their Mr Speaker: Order. I think we have heard enough. It lives. was instructive for me to listen to what the hon. Gentleman In Brough—a community that thinks of itself as the had to say. Obviously, I have no responsibility for these home of the Hawk, centred on a factory that has been matters, but the issue was aired a few moments ago and building military aircraft since 1916—the shock was the Leader of the House’s response was absolutely visible. It is one of those factories where grandfathers, explicit. As to what other members of the Government fathers and sons all work, thus maintaining a proud might or might not say or what statements on the tradition of skilled work through the generations. A subject could or could not be issued, that is not a matter number of married couples who work there met there. for me. The hon. Gentleman is invariably like a dog with Therefore, after Christmas this year, whole families will a bone and so I rather suspect he will pursue the matter be looking for work, and what a time and place to look if he feels so inclined, but I hope that he will not do so for work. Many of them live in a part of Hull that has by trespassing on the time of the Backbench Business more unemployed people chasing every job than anywhere Committee. else in the country. In the past four years, the city and area have lost 7,500 manufacturing jobs—a quarter of all the manufacturing jobs now left there. Brough’s closure is not only an industrial tragedy, but a human tragedy—all so painful, and all so unnecessary. While Brough was announcing job losses across Yorkshire and Lancashire, Airbus was opening a £400 million 473 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 474

[Mr David Davis] upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) and me at the time, that it was a necessary offset and that it did not factory, which increased jobs by 650 and underpinned mean that it was moving Hawk production abroad. 6,000 other jobs. That factory makes Airbus wings. In I looked in the Indian papers and the defence journals past years, Brough and other parts of the BAE empire that cover both sides of the story to see what is happening have made the struts, spans and other parts of wings for on that project. Ashok Nayak, the chief executive of Airbus. Hindustan Aviation, which builds the Hawk in India, Until about five years ago, BAE maintained a stake said this year: in Airbus. The close relationship meant that Airbus “Last year, while negotiating the contract for 57 Hawks, BAE components of all sorts were made by the BAE work Systems wanted to give HAL”— force. That was a smart strategy. Although civil and military aviation operate on different business and economic Hindustan Aviation— cycles and different demands at any time, the manufacturing “additional work in building Hawks in the future. HAL is looking skills and requirements are interchangeable to a large for a large role in that build. What exactly, is still being discussed.” extent. Until then, the company could switch resources That was quoted in the Indian newspaper, Business backwards and forwards to whichever sector had the Standard, but such things are said in not just one paper. demand. The journal, Defence Now said much the same thing: Despite the counter-cyclical nature of those businesses, profits were stabilised—as, of course, was employment—but “BAE was discussing moving more production to Hindustan Aviation”, five years ago, before the banking crash and the sudden constraints on public spending, defence sales looked effectively to create export sales out of India. Separately, lucrative and profitable, and civil aviation looked just a reporting at the Paris air show earlier this year, the bit too competitive. Now, all is reversed of course: journalist David Donald said in another journal: defence sales are hard to come by anywhere in the “BAE Systems envisions no problems in maintaining the Hawk’s world, and commercial aviation is booming. production status for many years, with the production line in In 2006, in what must count as an astonishing piece India now driving and sustaining the all-important supply chain.” of strategic myopia, the company made a hideously It is plain to see that, whether by accident or design, short-term decision and disposed of its stake in Airbus BAE is effectively moving to a position where the and withdrew from civil aviation. Britain is the country emblematic British aircraft, the Hawk—the Red Arrows that created the first jet airliner. We now own no production aircraft—will be made abroad. That is where a serious capacity for civil airliners. That is not the only strategy part of our jobs are going now. What happened to the error to hit the work force. Harrier yesterday and what is happening to the Hawk Over the years, BAE and its predecessor companies today, if we are not careful, will happen to other aircraft have had a symbiotic relationship with the Government in the future. In summary, successive British Governments that is all too characteristic of defence industries. In the have maintained a policy to keep a cost-effective British largely cost-plus environment of defence procurement, defence industry on British soil. BAE Systems has the British taxpayer funds the development and production gained from that strategy, with the effect that we have of weapons and aircraft. British test pilots risk their exported those jobs and capability to foreign soil. lives testing, proving and improving those aircraft. In It gets worse. Since the 1960s, to maintain a viable exchange, the nation receives the aircraft, equipment defence industry, successive British Governments of all and weapons necessary to defend our shores and interests, parties have operated under a set of rules, known as the but it also obtains a defence industrial capacity that yellow book, that determine which costs the company supports us in time of war. meets and which costs the taxpayer meets. It transpires In addition, the Government go in for defence sales that when BAE lays off 3,000 workers, the BAE shareholder support, specifically to maintain the viability of that will not meet the cost, as is reported on the front page of domestic capacity. That is the theory. It seems to me the Hull Daily Mail today: “Taxpayers face £100m BAE that what has been happening is almost the opposite. bill”. Given how the system works, between £60 million Let us take, for example, the Harrier, perhaps the most and £110 million—we do not yet have the number—will iconic post-war British aircraft. Without it, we might be paid by the taxpayer, not by BAE, to lay off 3,000 have lost the Falklands war. It was developed with people and destroy their jobs. That is outrageous. British taxpayers’ money and tested by British test pilots. Today, it is an American aircraft. As far as I can A policy designed to defend our defence capability is tell, the Americans paid little if anything for the transfer being used to make us subsidise the destruction of that of intellectual property in the most innovative aircraft capability. A policy designed to defend and protect British since the war, yet they now manufacture that aircraft: jobs is being used to destroy British jobs. If I were the British money; British skill; American jobs and capability. Minister, I would not pay BAE a penny. I would tell Sadly, that appears to be happening again. BAE, “This is your decision. This is the outcome of your strategy. If you don’t like it, I’ll see you in court.” If we win the potentially huge American order for the T-X aircraft, between 350 and 1,000 advanced Hawks I should tell the Minister that I have spoken to the will be manufactured not in Britain, but in Texas. What Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee about that means is demonstrated by what has been happening this matter, and she has agreed to have a National Audit with the sales of the Hawk to India. In the past decade, Office investigation. I hope that that helps to stiffen the about 150 Hawks have been sold to the Indian air force. Ministry of Defence’s spine. I have also discovered that The vast majority of them—all except the first 24, I BAE has already benefitted to the tune of hundreds of think—have been built in Bangalore. BAE will tell millions of pounds from such yellow book subsidies for anyone, as they told the right hon. Member for Kingston failure. I will ask the PAC to investigate that, too. 475 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 476

Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): I The proposals have all sorts of strategic implications. have been following the thread of my right hon. Friend’s One of the things that we looked at 10 years ago—I am argument, but I point out that the issue is not entirely probably not breaking too many secrets—was the advanced one-sided for BAE Systems. The previous Government medium-range air-to-air missile. We were not even allowed signed a number of contracts based on the work throughput technological knowledge of AMRAAM because of the in a location. No matter what Her Majesty’s Government Americans’ defences, and that made it less effective for ordered, BAE Systems was guaranteed to deliver work, us. This is quite an area of battle. Indeed, the previous through the Clyde, Woodford and other sites around Defence Secretary made quite an issue of this, as my the United Kingdom. If the Government cancelled hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East orders, BAE Systems had to pick up the bill, because it (Mr Ellwood) will know, and will understand only too was a sort of Stalinist tractor factory contract that the well. We have not fought our corner very well, and I am previous Government put in place. afraid that BAE Systems is culpable, as part of that. It has been very poor in terms of its strategic decisions on Mr Davis: Frankly, I will resist making this a Labour civil and military aviation, and when it comes to protecting versus Tory argument, for a simple reason. For the past our intellectual property. 10 years, when it comes to BAE Systems and employment in our constituencies, the right hon. Member for Kingston Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) rose— upon Hull West and Hessle and I have studiously aimed solely at protecting jobs, sometimes demurring from scoring political points. My hon. Friend the Member Mr Davis: I shall give way for the last time, because for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) makes a many Members want to speak. good general point: there is a central planning approach—a bad one—but the raw truth is that it was designed to Mr Knight: I am most grateful to my right hon. ensure that our defence capability and defence employment Friend for giving way; he is being very generous. He were stable, and would be there in time of war. That has posed the question of whether what was happening was been turned, and it has effectively been used to destroy the result of accident or design. Has he not now answered those jobs and that defence capability. that question? The answer is design—it is the deliberate decision of the management. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Mr Deputy Speaker, who represents Ribble Valley, in which Samlesbury sits, together with many other colleagues, regardless of party, Mr Davis: It is certainly the consequence of deliberate and I have sought to adopt the same bipartisan approach decisions. Whether the management intended this outcome in our pursuit of BAE interests on our sides of the at the beginning, or whether it is sheer crass misjudgment, Pennines. We are in full support of what the right hon. I will leave the House to judge. What I am trying to do is Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and lay out the facts as starkly as I can, because it was long my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon ago time to open up the process to public scrutiny. Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) are seeking to do. That brings me to the decision today. The company is It would be terrible and hopeless if we turned this into a in the middle of a 90-day consultation period. From the 2011 contest across the Pennines. start, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle and I, and a number of colleagues— Mr Davis: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely probably every Member of Parliament involved in the right on both counts. It would suit very well the people process—told the company that we would hold it to its whose mind we are trying to change if we fought legal responsibilities on a 90-day process. Those legal against ourselves on party political or geographical responsibilities involve being transparent and open, and grounds. Much as I look back with amusement and looking in good faith at all proposals put to it. I repeat fondness on past cricketing experiences in the wars of that: looking in good faith at all proposals put to it. the roses, those wars need not be repeated here and now. Unfortunately I have to tell the House that, based on the company’s behaviour to date, it seems to me entirely Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): My possible that it has broken its legal responsibilities. It right hon. Friend makes a powerful argument, much of has not looked in good faith at all the options available which I agree with, but in the interests of balance, will to it, but I will leave it to my right hon. Friend—I beg he concede that there is another side to the coin? The his pardon, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Apache helicopter, which we purchased, made by Boeing, Hull West and Hessle; he is my friend—to say more on was built in the UK, not by the American work force. that later. We also make kit that is exported: the empennage—the I certainly expect the company to demonstrate why it rear section—of the F-35, designed for an American turned down the options that it was looking at before it market, is made here, and the M777 Howitzer is made made the decision. As far as I can see, it has not even in this country and exported. There is another side to done that. Secondly, I expect it to give proper consideration the coin. to the plan drawn up by its management to preserve Mr Davis: There is another side to the coin, but since employment at Brough in my constituency, albeit at my hon. Friend draws me on that point, I am afraid that lower levels. Again, I think that the right hon. Gentleman on one side there is a pound, and on the other there is a will touch on that point. ha’penny.I was the Public Accounts Committee Chairman The work force at Hull are the best, in terms of for five years, and I looked at the issue in close detail, attitude, productivity and skill, I saw in my 20 years in and I have to tell him that the Americans are far more business before I came to the House, and BAE Systems aggressive and effective than we are when it comes to senior management agree. The work force’s attitude protection of their intellectual property. is positive, their productivity is high, and the right 477 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 478

[Mr David Davis] 12.50 pm hon. Gentleman and I have always been told that they Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) are competitive on cost and quality. They deserve a (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member proper chance. for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). As he said, for the past 14 years we have worked together to try to If the company does a proper, open-minded review, protect the interests of BAE workers at Brough. We and the figures do not add up—I accept that is possible—its have been joined in that by other Members who represent responsibilities do not end there. We have been fortunate: constituencies in Hull and the east riding, many of the Civitas think-tank has invested £50,000 in looking whom are here today, but he and I have been working at the Brough site to see what it can be used for, how the together on it the longest. skills can be deployed, and what we can do without destroying the skills base. For that, I thank it warmly. Three consistent themes have run through all our The chairman of the Government’s skill retention taskforce discussions with BAE and its work force. First, there is came to see us yesterday, and it is at work, looking for a superb work force at Brough, as BAE has stated over alternatives. The Government acted within two weeks and over again. Indeed, Allan Cook, who heads the and put in place two enterprise zones, one on each side Government’s talent retention unit and has a long history of the Pennines, to help us in all this, but if we cannot in the aerospace industry, having worked for Marconi, come up with an alternative, we will again lose a critical Cobham, BAE and Marshalls, told us a few days ago mass of skilled workers that will not be replaced once it that he had never encountered such a talented group of is dissipated. That is the nub of the matter. workers in his entire engineering career. Secondly, there The job losses in Brough and on the other side of the is the success of the Hawk. Since its first flight in 1976, Pennines are, to a large extent, a direct consequence of 900 Hawk aircraft have been sold around the world. It is the company’s strategy over the years. The company’s an iconic British product that is still in great demand, as profits come, to a very large extent, from taxpayer I will show later. Thirdly, the work force have shown support. remarkable loyalty to, and respect for, the company. On the several occasions when the plant has been downsized, I have found the work force’s enormous respect for the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): My right company incredible. hon. Friend makes a powerful point. On the legacy issue, does he agree that it is not good enough for BAE Since the announcement on 27 September, only one Systems to say, “We will do everything that we can to of those three consistent themes has changed; I am find people alternative work”? It has to make sure that afraid that the company has lost the respect of its work that legacy remains in east Yorkshire, and that the site force. One long-serving employee who wrote to me—I remains a site of employment in manufacturing for our am sure that colleagues have received similar letters—said, constituents. “Until this week I was proud to wear BAE Systems’ name but now find myself appalled by the actions of Mr Davis: My hon. Friend, who has been very active the senior management.” That kind of sentiment has in this campaign, brings me to the nub of the issue. It is been repeated by people who feel utterly betrayed by the precisely because the company had, until five years ago, announcement and by the way it was made. experience in civil aviation; precisely because it is the BAE is seeking to end 100 years of aerospace biggest employer of engineers in the country; and because manufacturing on the Humber not because of any of its knowledge, access, contacts and understanding of problems with the staff or the product they produce, the markets, that it is best equipped to find an alternative but because in difficult times it would rather impress use for Brough—full stop. That is what I—and others, I shareholders with how tough it can be than impress the am sure—demand. It is not just Brough; I keep saying work force with how honourable it can be. The decision Brough because it is closest to my heart, but the company of the four Typhoon countries to slow deliveries of the must find alternative employment and use for the assets aircraft was of course a blow, but the European Aeronautic and the work force across the country. That is what it is Defence and Space Company and Finmeccanica are best equipped to do. Frankly, as far as I can see, so far it slowing production of the Typhoon in Germany, Spain has not lifted a finger in that direction. and Italy without losing any highly skilled manufacturing There has been a lot of criticism in recent weeks of jobs. high levels of executive pay. Recently, the statistic came out that, over 30 years, senior executives have had a 4,000% increase in pay. Despite severe criticism of senior James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): The right management by investors and others over the years, the hon. Gentleman makes the important point that this pay of BAE’s chief executive grew by 8,000% over the might appear to be a short-term decision that benefits same period, double the national average. I am not one shareholders in the immediate future, but does he agree of those who believe that people should not be paid that in the long term shareholders would probably large sums of money, but I expect them to earn it. They rather see the retention of an important skills base that could perhaps justify their salaries—the chief executive’s will allow BAE to compete effectively in future and is £2.4 million—by doing a better job not only for secure contracts? shareholders, but for employees and the country. Alan Johnson: That is absolutely right. That is why we Several hon. Members rose— wanted a debate in the House with a motion setting that out, because that is precisely the message we need to put Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I inform out. As I will say later, that is precisely what other the House that the debate will conclude at 2.30 pm. serious manufacturing companies are doing. 479 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 480

Four countries are affected by the decision to slow As thousands of highly skilled BAE employees delivery of the Typhoon, but only BAE in the UK has contemplate a miserable Christmas, it is time for the reacted by throwing highly skilled engineers out of company to engage properly with its work force in order work and abolishing a manufacturing plant. Although to ensure that their important skills are retained in the company says that its announcement was forced by aerospace manufacturing and that aerospace manufacturing the slow-down in orders for the Typhoon, almost a is retained on the Humber. We are 58 days into the third of the job losses are for the Hawk, an aircraft that statutory 90-day process, but there is no sign whatsoever remains popular around the world. Orders are imminent that BAE is doing anything other than going through from Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iraq and the United States, the motions. Indeed, the site director at Brough told my and potential orders are imminent from Poland, Kuwait hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North and the RAF in a few years’ time. When we and others, (Diana Johnson) only last week that nothing would including the unions, have asked the company what will change during this consultation process. He told her happen if they get an order for 10, 50,100 or 150 Hawks that they were going though the motions. When the next week—this relates closely to the point that the 90 days end on Boxing day, it will still be 27 September right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden made as far as BAE’s plans are concerned. about the 90-day process—its reaction has been that The unions are working hard to hold the company to nothing would change. Our suspicion is that is because its statutory obligations. The union representatives involved there is a view that it will not be the other side of the are very good and need no advice from me, but if I was Pennines that benefits from extra Hawk orders, but a union rep involved in the case, I would seriously Texas, India and manufacturing plants abroad. consider seeking a protective order against BAE for its When the unions have berated BAE on the effects on lack of engagement. British manufacturing and pointed out that it is an We believe that BAE’s three manufacturing sites should important British manufacturing company, it has replied be retained. The company should stand by its loyal that it is not a manufacturing company, but an engineering work force in difficult times, so that when the good company that chooses to manufacture, the implication times return it has sufficient manufacturing capacity in being that that is the choice it has made at the moment this country to deal with the extra work. but might not make in future. In no other major All the signs are that military aerospace will expand industrialised country in Europe would a company that dramatically from about 2016. At the very least, BAE has spent much of the past decade moaning about skills should adopt the intelligent proposals put forward by shortages be getting rid of some of the most highly its own executive group at Brough in order to mitigate skilled people in the country. In no other major the significant risk inherent in the company’s plans by industrialised country would a company whose biggest retaining crucial assembly and sub-assembly at Brough customer is the Government and whose biggest investor for the duration of the next Hawk acquisition contract, historically has been the taxpayer be causing such damage thereby saving about one third of the jobs until 2016. to a precious sector of the economy. There is an alternative approach. Andrew Witty, the Mr Ellwood: The right hon. Gentleman is making a chief executive of GlaxoSmithKline, another British powerful speech, but will he elaborate on his statement manufacturer that sells its products abroad, lambasts that the defence industry expects to expand with orders British businesses that turn themselves into “mid-Atlantic in 2016? From the angle that I see the issue, the United floating entities” with no connection to society. He says States, NATO countries and so forth are doing exactly that his company has given a lot to Britain, but that the opposite: this is the area in which budgets are being Britain has given a lot to his company and that it would cut; defence is being affected. not exist without the work of British people and the support of the British Government. He is busy returning Alan Johnson: That is true, and I will turn to civil manufacturing jobs from abroad to this country. He aerospace in a moment, but all the experts in the area, says that his objective is to give more jobs, provide more including the unions handling the situation, expect that skills and pay more taxes in Britain. It is a shame that from 2016 there will be an increase, particularly in other iconic international British companies do not Hawk orders. We are looking at the home of Hawk in follow the same philosophy. Brough, and it is going through a difficult time, but most expect that, if we can get to 2016 and through the Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): I am well next difficult period in this country and throughout the acquainted with Andrew Witty, having met him at world, there will be significant opportunities in military GlaxoSmithKline’s research and development centre in engineering. China. It is now a global business that employs thousands of Chinese people, and although the company returns a The executive group at Brough has put forward a lot to the UK, it also has major investments abroad in proposal to safeguard what is probably the Saudi Arabia the same way BAE Systems will have when it is employing contract, to ensure that there are no dangers to it and, people in India. therefore, to save about one third of the work force until 2016. There is a desperate shortage of necessary skills Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. to meet booming demand in the commercial aerospace That is precisely the point. We can compare those two sector by companies such as Rolls-Royce and EADS, so British companies. Around 96% of GlaxoSmithKline’s the retention of some Hawk work should be combined sales are abroad, but it is making a decision as a British with facilitating and incentivising the transfer of packages company to invest in Britain and open manufacturing of commercial aerospace work to Brough. It is an plants at a difficult time, and it is of course helped by attractive site, with exceptional access by air, sea and the patent box that was agreed by the Labour and land. It has the machinery, the layout and the work Conservative parties. It is an example that BAE should force that commercial aerospace companies need, and it follow. can be utilised without causing job cuts elsewhere. 481 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 482

[Alan Johnson] Peter Luff: I know the decision to which the hon. Gentleman refers, and it will of course please other It is time for fresh thinking. As the right hon. Member parts of the country, because BAE Systems will do the for Haltemprice and Howden has pointed out, we are in work elsewhere in the UK, but I shall happily talk to the crazy position of using taxpayers’ money to destroy him about it privately afterwards if he would find that skilled jobs in an economy that is desperate for high-value helpful. manufacturing to expand. It is time for an ethical and, I do not want to labour the point, but we all know even, patriotic approach by big profitable international how important defence is as an integral part of advanced companies, such as BAE, to the problems that this manufacturing in this country. It sustains about 300,000 country faces. The Government have an important role jobs, many of which are highly skilled, in thousands of to play in such a strategy, but the prime responsibility companies of all sizes. Those employed are at the rests with the company. pinnacle of manufacturing and engineering ability, and I have a final quotation from Andrew Witty. He says: they do a significant job in helping to keep our country “I…believe one of the reasons we have seen an erosion of secure. The industry is a key sponsor of manufacturing trust…in big companies is they’ve allowed themselves to be seen apprenticeships and training, the quality of which is as detached from society…They’ve allowed it to be perceived that acknowledged by employers across a range of industries, it’s all about money.” and intensive research and development programmes BAE needs to avoid being a “mid-Atlantic floating also mark out the defence sector as a source of innovation entity” and to demonstrate that it is a British company and intellectual property. that cares about British society and British jobs. The The House will also be aware—this was at the heart work force at Brough have been loyal to BAE in difficult of the two speeches that we have heard—that defence is times. BAE needs to reciprocate that loyalty now. a major contributor to export revenues. UK industry has an outstanding record of export success, second Several hon. Members rose— only to the US as an exporter of defence equipment and services. Despite the challenging market conditions Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I am experienced by many sectors of the wider manufacturing going to call the Front Benchers next, but I ask them to base, the UK has in the last year won almost £6 billion be mindful that a number of MPs who wish to contribute in new defence exports business. That represents an to this debate have constituency interests in the matter. increase in our share of the global defence market from 18% to 22%, and we are committed to continuing that trend with strong support for future defence export 1.3 pm campaigns, including the products mentioned by the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Members who have spoken. (Peter Luff): It is good to see a constituency Member in Within that vital and dynamic sector of the UK the Chair for this important debate, Mr Deputy Speaker, economy, BAE Systems has a significant role. It has and I will do my best to be as brief as the complex issues been the MOD’s largest defence supplier for some time; raised allow. it is the fourth largest supplier to the US Department of May I say how much I enjoyed both speeches that we Defence, which accounts for 50% of its revenue; and it have heard? My right hon. Friend the Member for is, indeed, the world’s second largest defence company. I Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) seized the should like to pay a tribute to BAE Systems: its speed opportunity for this Back-Bench debate with his usual and adaptability in updating software for the Typhoon skill and aplomb, and he spoke with passion and conviction; aircraft’s radar and defensive aids systems was one of and the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull the keys to the success of the recent action in Libya, and West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) spoke movingly and we owe all its staff a great debt of gratitude for that. thoughtfully. The company would do very well to listen BAE Systems’ wider involvement, beyond Typhoon, to the concerns that they both expressed. extends to many of the MOD’s largest programmes, I must emphasise, however, the deep regret that the including the Astute submarine, the Type 45 destroyer, Government and I, personally, feel at the job losses that the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier, the joint BAE Systems announced on 27 September. Such decisions, combat aircraft, general munitions and support for the I hope, are never taken lightly by companies, and we armoured fighting vehicle fleet. Overall in 2010, BAE fully recognise the very real impact that they will have Systems’ revenue from the UK amounted to just over on local industry and individual livelihoods. I emphasise £4 billion, representing 20% of the company’s total also—it is clear from the debate so far—that the decision revenue. So hon. Members should be in no doubt about was a commercial one, made by the company, which the importance that the Government attach to the explained that it was necessary to maintain competitiveness contribution of the UK defence industry in general and both in the UK and internationally. This debate is BAE Systems specifically to a re-balanced economy testing that rationale. and export-led growth. Let me turn to the specific programmes that are Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): I share the relevant to today’s debate. In the air, Typhoon, a triumph concerns about BAE that the mover and seconder of of European engineering, has really come of age. It is a this excellent motion have expressed, because we are first-class aircraft and the envy of discerning nations experiencing similar problems on the Tyne. The shock throughout the world. Already in service with six air decision to switch work fromA&PTynewill have a forces—in the UK, Germany, Italy, Spain, Austria and disastrous effect not only on our region through the loss Saudi Arabia—and at the forefront of the world’s media of hundreds of highly skilled jobs, but on the economy. coverage following its recent exemplary operational Will the Minister urge BAE to rethink? deployment in the skies above Libya, the prospects for 483 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 484 expanding Typhoon’s user community have never been aerospace. We will be considering the matter extremely better, and Ministers are working hard to ensure that we carefully later in close dialogue with the companies crystallise those opportunities. involved. The hon. Gentleman makes an important Those export prospects meant that some changes point. It is vital that the programme succeeds. The were needed to the Typhoon programme. In May 2010, matter is complex as it plays into the UK-French bilateral a request was made by the Eurofighter GmbH industrial relationship, but we are determined to take it forward in consortium—I emphasise industry, not Government—to the best interests of UK industry and, crucially, the slow down the rate of Typhoon aircraft production in defence industry. order to free up and sustain sufficient industrial capacity in the Eurofighter partner companies, comprising Alenia, Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I BAE Systems and Cassidian, and to service export orders. listened with interest to that last point about how The UK, along with the other partner nation important the sector could be to the future of the Governments, agreed to the industry’s proposal in July defence industry. As an MP representing a constituency 2011—on the basis that it would not adversely affect the in Hull, may I ask the Minister whether he has had any build-up of our own Typhoon fleet. As a result, there is direct conversations with BAE Systems about how that now the prospect of Typhoons being made over a type of work could help to deal with the issues identified longer time frame, with the production lines open to at Brough regarding future work? 2018 rather than closing in 2015 as previously planned. Peter Luff: The short answer to that question is yes. I Mr David Davis: Will my hon. Friend give way? have obviously discussed the future of the sector with the company, but I have not done so in specific detail Peter Luff: In just a second. about Brough—in general terms, yes, but not specifically The letter that BAE Systems sent to Members ahead about Brough. If the hon. Lady wishes to make a of this debate does not accurately explain the reasons suggestion to me, I will happily take it forward. for the slow-down, which in turn is responsible for The Government need an efficient defence industry, many of the redundancies in Warton and Samlesbury. and I make no apology for saying that. Another line in the letter to hon. Members seems to suggest that we are Mr Davis: The Minister has answered my question. in some sense to blame for wanting BAE Systems to be more efficient. We want it to be more efficient for the Peter Luff: I will return on several occasions to that sake of taxpayers and also for the sake of export letter, which was disingenuous in several respects, and opportunities. I make no apology for demanding that am grateful to my right hon. Friend. efficiency of our suppliers. The MOD has also invested £190 million in shaping a Although using open competition on the global market potential future unmanned combat air vehicle programme. is the MOD’s preferred option and its default position BAE Systems has been our partner in that, and it led an for purchasing defence capabilities—I listened carefully industry team formed of Rolls-Royce, QinetiQ and GE to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice Aviation. An unmanned combat air system programme and Howden said in that respect—in certain situations, could form part of a cost-effective solution in air-to-air the MOD has had to enter into single source procurement and ground-to-air combat roles. That work includes the for some of the capabilities we must have in the UK. In Taranis technology demonstrator, which is a world-class these situations, we use the yellow book—it is called project and a testament to the UK’s advanced design, that because it is yellow—or “Government Profit Formula engineering and technology talents. It exhibits UK and Associated Arrangements” to give its full title. The manufacturing capability at its very best. yellow book covers the pricing arrangements to be used We recognise and welcome the investment that the in single-source, non-competitive procurement. That industry is making in technologies for unmanned air can include reasonable rationalisation and redundancy systems and encourage it to continue, so that it will have costs, provided they are associated with a reduction in products that meet our needs and those of export work related to single-source procurement. customers. I have to say once again that the letter sent The yellow book arrangements have remained largely by BAE Systems to hon. Members does not appear to unchanged for more than 40 years, which is why in do justice to the partnership nature of the programme, January this year I commissioned Lord Currie of because BAE Systems seems to take all the credit for it. Marylebone to undertake a root-and-branch independent The letter refers to the significant funding BAE Systems review of it. The MOD is currently undertaking a put in, but it does not emphasise the Government’s consultation, which runs until the new year, on Lord funding or the other three partner companies involved Currie’s proposals. No decisions will be made on his in the project. BAE Systems should be a little more proposals until the consultation has been completed. modest from time to time in the claims it makes on behalf of the company. Mr David Davis: The Minister is making a very Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): Will the Minister courteous and informative speech that is very helpful to explain the situation regarding UK air flights of Taranis us. Will he ensure that the response of the Public and unmanned aerial vehicles, because there seems to Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office to be a problem with the Government not supporting test my request that they investigate some of the yellow flights and not helping BAE Systems? book operations is taken on board in that consultation?

Peter Luff: The whole future of the unmanned combat Peter Luff: Yes. In fact, there has already been discussion sector is important for the Government and lies at the with the National Audit Office about aspects of the heart of the strategic future of aerospace and defence single-source regulations. My right hon. Friend makes a 485 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 486

[Peter Luff] which is the air defence aircraft. In 2009, they took a subsequent decision to reduce the size of the remaining very important point and I welcome what he said about Harrier fleet, which meant it was not large enough to that in his speech. It is very helpful indeed to have those achieve sustained operations in Afghanistan and maintain remarks on the record. an adequate contingent capability for the unexpected The scope of Lord Currie’s review covers not just on its own. A combined fleet of Tornado and Harrier rationalisation and redundancy costs but a whole range would not be cost-effective, because retiring an aircraft of other issues associated with the process. He made his type delivers significantly greater savings than running views clear on that in the document he produced, which two smaller fleets. states: Although the withdrawal of the Harrier was a decision “We do not recommend moving away from the requirement we took with regret, it was effectively forced upon us. that the MOD should bear the redundancy and restructuring Despite that sorry affair, we have worked hard to make costs associated with programme curtailment or cancellation. the most of the situation. I can tell the House today that The alternative, whereby the contract bears such costs, would be we have agreed the sale of the final 72 Harrier aircraft appreciably more expensive. Faced with the possibility of bearing frames and associated parts, which will be used as a such costs, the contractor would necessarily need to price in a significant, possibly prohibitive, risk premium into contracts against major source of spares to support the US Marine that eventuality, over which it has little or no influence.” Corps Harrier AV-8B fleet of aircraft. The value of the sale is $180 million—some £110 million—and represents Let us put those observations on liabilities in a BAE a good deal for UK taxpayers and the US Government. Systems context. The Brough site has historically been Added to the savings made from retiring the Harrier used for a variety of purposes, including the manufacture fleet from service, that sale takes the total estimated of the Hawk advanced jet trainers. It also has a structural receipts and savings to the Ministry of Defence to testing facility used for a number of different airframes, around £1 billion. That will enable investment in a more and has been involved in the manufacture of some modern and capable mixed fast-jet fleet, including the Nimrod MRA4 and Typhoon parts. state-of-the-art joint strike fighter and therefore be good Some of those projects were procured on a single for British jobs. source basis, but many of them were not. In the course of normal business, BAE Systems has approached us to The Harrier was a marvellous piece of technology begin discussions on payment for a share of its and demonstrates the UK’s significant contribution to rationalisation and redundancy costs at Brough. We the development of fixed-wing aviation. I pay tribute to will ascertain what proportion, if any, of those costs we all those who contributed to its design and manufacture, should be liable for under the yellow book framework. I as well as to our service personnel who flew and supported can assure the right hon. Member for Kingston upon them. Accordingly, I am pleased to announce that we Hull West and Hessle and my right hon. Friend the plan to offer two Harrier aircraft to museums in order Member for Haltemprice and Howden that our negotiations to preserve the UK’s aviation heritage. will be robust in defence of taxpayers’ interests. I am On the points made by my right hon. Friend the very grateful for their support in that process. Member for Haltemprice and Howden about the overseas We also recognise that the Government’s procurement production of British aircraft, conditions in the international decisions directly impact inward investment and marketplace do influence commercial choices and outcomes exportability. Our involvement as the only level 1 partner —it is not just a matter of what the Government say. It in the joint strike fighter programme has brought significant is increasingly unavoidably the case that export customers high-end work into BAE System’s Samlesbury facility are demanding that their orders be satisfied mostly or and, indeed, to UK industry more widely. That site wholly by means of local production and technology manufactures the joint strike fighter rear fuselage for transfer. There is often a need to satisfy that critical Lockheed Martin, in respect not only of the UK order condition in order to secure an order. That is certainly a but of orders from the US and other international feature of many of the potential Typhoon and Hawk clients. That production run should continue until at export orders. My right hon. Friend regrets it—I may least 2035 and, on current plans, supply 3,000 aircraft. regret it, too—but it is a fact of life. If we want to win Following that, the UK should be very well placed to business, this is the way we have to do business. win additional competitively placed work within the JSF production support programme, potentially valued at The insistence on local involvement by the customer £30 billion. Similarly, Government investment in the becomes even more likely and significant with larger assessment phase of the electronically scanned radar export orders. The choice is to offer that condition or for Typhoon will enable a capability leap for the not to compete for the contract at all. That would Typhoon fleet. That not only benefits UK armed forces reduce the viability of the businesses themselves and well into the 21st century, but improves Typhoon’s would be bad for UK employment. Last year’s deal to chances of success in the highly competitive, fast-jet sell 57 Hawk to India was worth several hundred millions market. of pounds for UK companies, even though the final assembly was in India itself, so it is good for both sides One issue that has not been raised is the fact that the of a vital strategic partnership for this country. letter from BAE Systems to hon. Members alludes to the withdrawal of the Harrier aircraft, but it does not However, we also fully recognise our responsibility to provide the context and detail for that decision. In the those whose livelihoods are threatened by changes in bipartisan spirit of today, I shall simply say that we had the market. Work will continue for some time at Brough a very challenging financial situation at the MOD and and the Skills and Jobs Retention Group and the Jobcentre leave it at that. It is also true that the previous Government Plus rapid response service will assist skilled workers took the decision to delete the Sea Harrier in 2006, there and at the other sites in finding new roles. 487 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 488

Mr David Davis: I think everybody takes the point Peter Luff: I will give way for the last time, because I that, in the modern defence market, there will be offset. am anxious to conclude and let other Members speak. Everybody has offset; we have offset. As has been made clear, offset arrangements do occur. It is problem when Kerry McCarthy: Filton airfield is one of the enterprise those offset arrangements become the permanent new areas linked to the local enterprise zone in Bristol. Is the manufacturing base for the aircraft, which is effectively Minister aware of concern about the closure of the what has happened with Harrier and seems at least to airfield, which many people think will pose a real risk to have been discussed with the head of Hindustan Aviation aerospace jobs in the area? Does the Department have a with BAE. view on that?

Peter Luff: I agree that when overseas production Peter Luff: I am aware of the issue, but the evidence becomes a source of rival manufacture for export purposes, suggests that that concern, although I understand it, is there is an issue for us. We have to accept, however, that probably not well founded. I believe I am right in saying the success of the Typhoon contract in India will depend that today— on significant participation by Indian aerospace industries in the manufacture and upgrading of the aircraft. That Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con) rose— is the price for winning the contract, and it is a price that we have to be prepared to pay. Peter Luff: I give way to my hon. Friend, who might Additionally on the subject of support for those who have more details than I do. are sadly affected by these decisions, last month the Chancellor invited strong and viable proposals for enterprise Jack Lopresti: I was concerned about the potential zones in the areas surrounding the sites, with a view to impact of the closure of Filton airfield on local jobs enabling those zones to be up and running by April next and industry, so the first thing I did was speak to local year. As the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull companies such as Airbus, Rolls-Royce and GKN, which West and Hessle said, attracting new industry to these all assured me that the existence of the airfield was not existing manufacturing hubs could soften the impact of in any way consistent with their increased orders or BAE’s change in structure without undermining the viability in the long term—on the contrary. lives of these highly skilled workers. Peter Luff: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. My understanding is that the Secretary of State for Business, Alan Johnson: We are pleased to get an enterprise Innovation and Skills is in the Bristol area today announcing zone, but we need to look at other work that these additional jobs for Airbus. Although I genuinely respect skilled workers can do; many companies would be the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Bristol pleased to get them. Our point is that this requires a East (Kerry McCarthy), I have heard other assurances new way of thinking. There is no reason why we cannot similar to those of my hon. Friend. However, I promise bring packages of civil aviation work to Brough, where that I will keep my eye on the situation as best I can, as a there is a fabulous site and a really good work force. The Defence Minister, and I am sure that the Department alternative is that these workers have to move, which is for Business, Innovation and Skills will do exactly the very difficult given the housing market and all the other same thing. problems that they face with schools, families and so on. We then find very highly skilled workers ending up The defence sector and, in particular, BAE Systems as taxi drivers or dropping out because they have to stay have a significant role in rebalancing the economy by in their local area. Will the Minister consider, with offering the taxpayer better value for money; and by Allan Cook, attracting these packages, given that there offering the world the products, innovation and services is such a skills shortage in commercial aviation? required to compete on the global stage. However, BAE Systems must also be prepared to take responsibility for its decisions and to understand the debt that it owes to Peter Luff: I will do precisely that with the Under- the country and the taxpayer. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey); it is very good to see him in his place today 1.23 pm supporting this debate and showing the concern for the Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): This issues raised that is felt across Government more widely. is an important debate, not only for the workers affected Of course, I do not have responsibility for civil aerospace. in Brough, Warton and Samlesbury, and for their families Although I happen to agree with my right hon. Friend and their wider community, but for the wider UK the Member for Haltemprice and Howden about the defence industry, UK manufacturing, and all the businesses wisdom of selling the share in Airbus, that is a personal, and their employees in the supply chain. not a ministerial, view. I believe that there are significant The case for this debate has been set out in stark opportunities for the wider civil aerospace sector resulting terms by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and particularly from what has happened at Brough, and I Howden (Mr Davis) and my right hon. Friend the entirely agree that BAE Systems should be creative, Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan thoughtful and active in making those opportunities Johnson). Their comments, though, have to be set against come to fruition exactly as suggested by my right hon. the bigger picture. We have an economy that is flatlining, Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden and with the lowest growth of any country in the G7 bar the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West Japan—which, of course, suffered an earthquake and a and Hessle. nuclear disaster—and the lowest growth of any EU country bar Greece, Portugal and Cyprus, yet we have a Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab) rose— Government Department that repeatedly states that the 489 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 490

[Alison Seabeck] skills on which this industry has traditionally been based. Labour Members have already commissioned decisions on where redundancies fall are nothing to do our own review of defence procurement, and it will be with it. I have to ask the Minister whether that is also interesting to see whether, in the long promised White the view of his colleagues in the Department for Business, Paper, the Government pick up on any of the themes we Innovation and Skills, the Department for Communities have suggested, which deserve further consideration. and Local Government, and the Department for Work Crucial too, and touched on in our document, is the and Pensions, who have to pick up the pieces and the economic case for a strong defence sector able to export costs of these significant job losses. goods and grow its markets rather than, as we are seeing We are talking about very skilled workers, whether in now, having to scale back its work, shrink its work force the north-west or Humberside, who have so much to and leave the taxpayer covering the cost of unemployment. offer to the company and to UK plc, and yet face a The relationship that BAE Systems has with the UK hugely uncertain future. It is far from clear whether the Government, and therefore within the defence industrial processes have been properly managed. It is also unclear base, is significant because of its substantial reach. It is whether the 90-day consultation process has been genuine a company of global significance with some 38,000 or whether the company has been paying lip service to employees in the UK, one of the largest cohorts of this requirement. I can well understand why right hon. apprentices, 10%-plus of all defence industrial jobs, and and hon. Members and the trade unions that represent over a third of its sales market in this country. In those affected speak inside and outside this place with fairness to the company, it does understand the need to such frustration and anger at how this is being handled protect the skills base. BAE also has some 9,000 UK by BAE as it downsizes and rationalises its footprint in suppliers, with tens of thousands, if not hundreds of the light of changing global demands. The leak in thousands, of supply chain jobs therefore partly dependent advance of its announcement is clearly unacceptable. on it. We must understand just how much that affects the work force’s perception of the management and what We are working in a market environment in difficult had until now, as my right hon. Friend the Member for financial times, and it is therefore important to understand Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle said, been a very from the Government what discussions they had with good working relationship. It is unclear what efforts BAE prior to this announcement. The Minister touched have been made to relocate any of the work force and to on that. Was the prospect of off-setting potential job consider alternative proposals from inside the company. losses from the slowing of programmes at BAE against My right hon. Friend, who has vast experience in these the mooted development by Siemens in Hull ever discussed? matters, posed a whole series of questions that the Siemens, of course, was in line to pick up the work that company needs to answer and in which the Government Bombardier failed to get. There is some uncertainty all should take a close interest. around this. We should be a little clearer about which I know that the Minister cannot answer questions branches of Government are looking to ensure that today, but I hope he will none the less give serious there is sustained, ongoing skilled employment in the thought to this. I was reassured to hear him say on Humber area. several occasions that he would take away issues that We have to have concerns when organisations such as were raised across the Chamber. That is not least because ADS, the trade organisation advancing the UK aerospace, we saw in the 1980s the loss of large defence and defence, security and space sectors, express the view industrial employers and the devastating effects that that the current cuts to BAE are the tip of the iceberg. that had on communities. Those effects outlast generations, We need to be convinced that the Government are using as we saw in my own constituency of Plymouth—and, all their tools—I realise that that is not solely the indeed, in Barrow, in Woolwich, and in other places. responsibility of the Minister who is present—to help This is a test of the Government’s willingness and those successful industries to be more productive. When ability to support British manufacturing, British defence the Government are the client, they must still ensure industries and skilled British jobs, and not merely to that the taxpayer gets value for money. The Government talk of an export-led recovery. I do not mean to stray must decide whether they want to act to support sovereign into territory that I am sure will be covered at length in capability with skilled jobs based in this country. If they the following debate, but the issues raised at Brough do, they need to act now. speak to the wider question of how the Government are failing to support British business and get the economy We have to look at the potential problems facing the growing again. Typhoon programme. Italy and Spain are having difficulty paying their way. I heard the Minister’s positive comments about the Typhoon programme, but we need reassurance Jack Lopresti: Will the hon. Lady give way? that the Government are doing everything they can to keep it on track. We need to be sure that, along with the Alison Seabeck: Forgive me, but I will not, because a Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the lot of Back-Bench Members want to speak. The Minister Department is looking at the impact of the loss of gave way a lot, and we need to move on. intellectual property rights, such as those associated A key part of the very significant contribution that with the Harrier and the Hawk, which were mentioned the defence industries, and indeed BAE, make to our by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden. economy is the need for a strong defence industrial strategy Those are transferable, and in theory that allows build —one that meets our overall defence needs and protects programmes to happen outside the UK. Will Hawk our sovereign capability. We need a coherent plan of production be shifted entirely to India? Is that an entirely investment—for example, in unmanned aerial vehicle desirable endgame for the British Government? I suggest technologies—that will help to sustain the whole-aircraft that it is not. 491 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 492

I hope that the Minister will listen, as I shall, to right of this consultation remain employed in the defence hon. and hon. Members in this important Back-Bench manufacturing sector, for example at Rolls-Royce or debate as they flag up what is wrong with the way BAE Airbus. is responding to the current downturn, and highlight South Ribble needs BAE to remain competitive. I the ways in which the Government are not supporting urge the Government to continue to do all that they can British industry in this sector as Members feel they to support it and to ensure that it wins future business. I should. The Minister should not only take a direct want to see that business carried out in Lancashire. interest in the current situation, as he has made clear Exports are essential. In 2009, the defence sector delivered that he does, but pay heed to the critical reports of the more than £7 billion in UK exports, with £4.9 billion of Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit that attributed to BAE alone. The Government are Office, including any future investigations that they backing BAE and Lancashire in promoting the Warton- might undertake as a direct result of today’s debate, built Typhoon in foreign markets to help the region particularly into the yellow book. In the forthcoming retain its defence industrial skills base. White Paper, the Government should indicate clearly a Typhoon has had the opportunity to increase its positive way forward, because BAE, irrespective of the worldwide demand with its prominent role in Libya, issues raised in the House today, is a significant player when it was said that in the Government’s defence strategy and wider industrial strategy, particularly for fixed-wing aircraft and unmanned “Typhoon has truly come of age.” aerial vehicles, so it needs to be able to plan with some After its performance in conflicts in Libya, where it flew certainty within its own domestic market, as do all its about 3,000 operational hours and reported a 99% success competitors. In turn, it will be able to secure high-skilled rate against fixed targets and a 98% success rate against jobs such as those at Brough into the future. We must mobile targets, the Typhoon is now the leading contender avoid further job losses, any further loss of expertise in the two-horse race to win a deal to supply the Indian and, of course, the poor use of taxpayers’ money. air force—a deal worth $20 billion. Securing that deal and other export possibilities, such as to Japan, Malaysia Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The time limit and Qatar, would secure BAE’s position as the UK’s has been reduced to five minutes in order to get everybody premier defence and security company and its largest in. manufacturing employer for many years to come. To ensure that the Typhoon continues to be competitive in 1.32 pm the export market in the long term, I would like to see continued Typhoon development, including into e-scan Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): I congratulate radar capability. my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and BAE has made a strategic decision to base its centre Howden (Mr Davis) and the right hon. Member for of excellence in Lancashire. Should BAE be successful Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) in winning those contracts, the Typhoons will be built in on securing this debate. Lancashire. On behalf of my constituents who work at In the South Ribble area, 15% of the residents who BAE, I encourage the Minister to continue to rigorously work in manufacturing work for BAE. BAE’s presence promote the case for Typhoon overseas in any way in Lancashire is vital to the local and regional economy. possible. The motion is about preserving the UK’s production BAE Systems has invested considerable resources in and skills base, and there is no larger manufacturing an unmanned combat air system development programme. employer in the UK than BAE Systems. BAE is important I was fortunate to be invited to the first viewing in July to Lancashire not only because of its size as an employer, last year of the UCAS demonstrator, Taranis, which but because of the nature of the work force, who are receives joint investment from the Ministry of Defence predominantly highly skilled workers. Some 45% of and the industry. Unmanned air systems are vital to BAE’s UK work force are based in the north-west, maintaining a comprehensive military aerospace design making it by far the most important region to the and build capability in the UK. It is necessary to sustain company. In turn, the company is the most important these industrial skills in Lancashire for the continued manufacturing base in the region. BAE provides one in safe operation of the Tornado and Typhoon fleets that eight of the knowledge-intensive jobs in the north-west. are in service. I would like to see another UCAS The Warton site alone added £300 million to the regional demonstrator programme, following on from Taranis. economy in 2009. I want to see the highly skilled pupils in Lancashire’s Sadly, jobs are at risk as BAE Systems responds to schools today become the highly skilled workers in changes in key programmes, most notably the slowdown Lancashire of tomorrow. of the production of the Typhoon and slower than anticipated rates of production of the F-35 joint strike 1.37 pm fighter, and to pressures on defence budgets globally. It is essential that we all take every step necessary to Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): BAE Systems support employees whose jobs are at risk, UK aero-defence is a world-leading manufacturer of defence and security manufacturing, and BAE in Lancashire. products. It has bases scattered across the globe in I want to reassure my constituents that I will back places as distant as the United States, Australia and them, BAE, the supply chain and subcontractors to India. However, it is important that the UK remains at grow the manufacturing base in Lancashire. I am proud the core of its business and its base. that my constituency and the north-west have some of Before the recent announcements, BAE Systems the most highly skilled workers in the country. We must employed 40,000 people directly. When the indirect do everything that we can to ensure that, where possible, employment throughout the company’s supply chain is workers who do not retain their jobs at BAE as a result factored in, about 120,000 British jobs are dependent 493 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 494

[Mark Hendrick] decision were the cut in the Typhoon, not the F-35, along with the withdrawal from service of the Harrier on BAE Systems. To further demonstrate the company’s and the decision to scrap the Nimrod. That is what the standing, it generated £9.2 billion in revenues in 2009. It company is saying about the facts. made a direct value-added contribution to UK GDP of £3.3 billion and contributed more than £650 million to Peter Luff rose— the Treasury’s coffers. The Prime Minister has spoken at length about wanting to support British manufacturers. Mark Hendrick: I am happy to take the Minister’s No company has done more than BAE Systems. intervention, because I have only 16 seconds left and I BAE has a centre of excellence in the north-west. In shall get some extra time. 2009, a comprehensive report into the company by Oxford Economics stated: Peter Luff: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. “The North West is by far the most important region within Whatever the rights and wrongs of his argument, the BAE Systems UK, accounting for about half of all its UK letter makes it clear that that decision was taken in 2008. employment.” That is about 20,000 jobs. The report went on to make a Mark Hendrick: Which decision? point that has just been made by the hon. Member for South Ribble (Lorraine Fullbrook): Peter Luff: The decision by the four core Typhoon nations not to acquire the full quantity of Typhoon “BAE Systems now accounts for exactly one in eight jobs in tranche 3 aircraft was taken in 2008. I do not think I knowledge-intensive production within the North West.” can take responsibility for the last Government’s decisions. BAE’s concentration in the north-west means that the recent announcement that the company will axe 3,000 Mark Hendrick: I think the Minister is talking about highly skilled workers, half of them in Lancashire, is a tranche 3, not tranche 3A. body blow to the region, as I am sure it is in Yorkshire It is important that people get the matter into perspective. as well. For each of the 1,500 BAE Systems jobs lost in Lancashire, The Warton site, which employs more than 8,000 four other jobs will be lost in Lancashire as a result. It is people and contributes more than £300 million to the a huge blow to the region, to Lancashire and to many local economy, will see 822 redundancies. A further hard-working families from Preston. 565 jobs will go in Samlesbury, and more than 100 elsewhere in the region. Many of them are in my constituency and the surrounding constituencies in central Lancashire. 1.43 pm That is a tragedy for those employees, their families and Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): It is a great honour to the region. We have heard a great deal about Brough follow the hon. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick), today, but to put the matter in context, more jobs are who I know cares passionately about the jobs of the being lost in Lancashire than exist at Brough as a whole. work force at Warton and Samlesbury, as I do. I thank Contrary to some fairly derogatory remarks about the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West the standard of the work force in Lancashire, Warton and Hessle (Alan Johnson) and my right hon. Friend and Samlesbury are highly confident that they are capable the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) of doing whatever work is required on any aircraft if for securing this afternoon’s very important debate. the company asks them to undertake it. The north-west None of us wishes we were having it, because we know is where BAE Systems has placed the bulk of its operations, only too well the impact that the job losses have had on and it is where the company’s future lies. The north-west our constituencies—not just the loss of skills, but the centre of excellence exists at Warton and Samlesbury, impact on communities and their economies. and it will be a major contributor to this country’s gross I am very proud to be the Member of Parliament for domestic product. Coming when they do, however, the Fylde, and for the headquarters of BAE Systems changes are a particular problem for families on either manufacturing at Warton. Warton has a proud record side of the Pennines. not just of building the Typhoon but of developing the The Typhoon jet is a huge success story, which we unmanned aerial combat vehicle programme and of want to be continued. As the hon. Member for South building the Tornado, so I wish to focus many of my Ribble mentioned, the jet undertook its first major comments on it. combat missions earlier this year, providing an invaluable Warton and Samlesbury truly have one of the most service in the skies of Libya. Production of the Typhoon highly skilled work forces that I have ever had the has taken place in three tranches, and although the privilege to meet. They are truly world-class, and for previous Government signed up to tranche 3A, it has generations they have designed and built some of the sadly been subjected to the coalition’s ill thought-through world’s finest military aircraft. One needs look no further and rushed strategic defence and security review. Rather than Operation Ellamy in Libya to see their quality. It is than producing a carefully constructed industrial strategy, no surprise that many of the world’s air forces are now the Ministry of Defence is now planning to halve the looking to BAE’s aircraft to form the backbone of their UK’s tranche 3 order, and BAE will cut its annual capability. production from 61 to 36 jets. When I visited the Warton site last Wednesday, I was Last week, the Minister made the point that much of reminded that the people there are more than capable of what was happening was due to the slowness of ramping taking on any challenge that is thrown at them. I take up work on the F-35. Nigel Whitehead, the group this opportunity to invite right hon. and hon. Members managing director, has made it plain in a letter to me to come with me to the site to meet the unions, speak and other hon. Members that the main reasons for the with the management and see the quality of what takes 495 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 496 place there. I have the utmost confidence that whereas area. I pay tribute also to all the Humber MPs who have the reorganisation that is taking place at Brough means been involved since the announcement in September huge devastation and disruption to people there, the about what will happen in Brough, and who have been transfer of work from Brough to Warton and Samlesbury fighting quite an effective campaign. I pay tribute to the will be done with the utmost excellence. I know that the trade unions at Brough, which provide an excellent work force at Warton and Samlesbury would do no less. example of a modern trade union movement that is Warton and Samlesbury is the centre of excellence fighting its corner very hard indeed. not for one area but for nine, which is reflected in the In an exchange that I had with the Minister on training and innovation that the work force there have 14 November, I asked him what he was doing to support built up there over the years. I take the opportunity to the people at Brough who had been told that their jobs pay tribute to the unions for the constructive way in were in jeopardy. Unfortunately, he gave me a response which they have engaged in a dialogue with me and with which I was not very happy, basically saying that it other local Members over a long period. They are was a matter for a private company, that it was up to the practical, pragmatic and an excellent example of a company to decide whether there would be redundancies group of people who do everything with their members’ and that it was not really anything to do with him. I best interests truly at heart. noticed that today, he talked about his deep regret It was my privilege to meet some BAE Systems about BAE Systems’ announcement of the redundancies apprentices two weeks ago at the Imperial War museum, at Brough, but I say to him that it is not a factory and I am pleased that it is doing everything it can to making widgets. It is a defence manufacturer that is support those young workers in their bright futures. On strategically important to this country, and in an area several occasions in the past year, I have also had the that is suffering disproportionately in the economic privilege to meet trade unions from Brough, and I know downturn. that the loss of the Hawk work will have come as a It is unusual to debate a specific company on the bitter blow to them. It is important that all Members do Floor of the House—debates are not normally about everything they can to ensure that the work force there one company. There are three issues, the first of which is are given every assistance to find alternative employment BAE Systems in the context of the Humber area. I am that reflects their skills. I take on board some of the the MP of the constituency that has the dubious comments that Opposition Members have made about characteristic of having the most people on jobseeker’s how we can use those skills in the civil aviation industry, allowance seeking a position—58.9 people are after and no stone should be left unturned in that field. every vacancy in my constituency. Any job lost in the From a Government perspective, it is very important area is a real problem for local people. The work force in that we work tirelessly to ensure that we secure exports Brough are highly skilled and motivated. If they lose for the Typhoon and the Hawk. Nothing is won until it their jobs, and if they can get other jobs locally, it is is won, and we should be careful about pouring cold likely that they will be paid less and will not enjoy the water on some aspects of the work share agreement, conditions that they have enjoyed in previous years. because we have not won any of the contracts yet. I ask Brough is an excellent example of manufacturing, and the Minister to consider options for bringing some of it would be a loss to the Humber region if it goes. the deep maintenance work that is currently done on I noted what the right hon. Member for Haltemprice RAF bases to Warton, and whether that would provide and Howden said about the salary of Ian King, which is potential stop-gap employment. I also ask him to get more than £2.5 million this year. We should compare some of the multinational agreements on the unmanned that with the average salary in my constituency: 40% of aerial combat vehicle that are currently being discussed people in my constituency are on less than £14,000, buttoned down, with finance arrangements in place. It which puts into context the importance of those jobs to is important that the work force and BAE systems can Hull and the Humber region. plan strategically for the future. I hope that in the forthcoming White Paper, the Time is against me, but I wish to say that the right Minister mentions not only the need to look at how we hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle procure equipment, but the importance of maintaining is absolutely right in identifying the considerable support manufacturing in the UK to its strategic capability. that successive UK Governments have provided to BAE Will the Minister undertake to press BAE on the Systems over the years. Now, BAE Systems has an following matters? First, why will the company not opportunity to demonstrate its commitment to UK consider taking up the interim proposal of the unions manufacturing by attracting some of the key component and the executives to phase the movement of Hawk manufacturers to the new enterprise zones that have production to Warton over the next four years? That been set up on both sides of the Pennines. The work would protect an additional 300 jobs at Brough and force at BAE Systems are truly the best of British, and it save the company £22 million in production costs on the is important that both the company and the Government current contract. Secondly, how will the company manage leave no stone unturned in putting their skills to future the significant risk involved in moving production to use. Warton? The risk should not be underestimated—the move seriously compromises BAE’s ability to tender for 1.48 pm aircraft contracts in future. Thirdly, will the Minister Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I, press BAE on why it will not consider allocating some too, pay tribute to the work of the right hon. Member of its significant naval works to the Brough site? for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my right The Humber area is suffering with the economic hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West downturn. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who have championed the Moor View (Alison Seabeck) mentioned the flatlining issue of BAE Systems for a very long time in the Humber economy, but the economy is particularly bad in the 497 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 498

[Diana Johnson] Rover. Two years ago, we were not sure whether we would lose the site in Solihull, but the company, with its Humber area—the region is suffering more than others determined work force, worked out a strategy. It worked in the country. The Minister and the Government need well with the unions, as we have heard, and JLR is now to consider very hard what else they can do through the in the good times. The announcement of 800 jobs at Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure i54 in Wolverhampton was made just a few weeks ago, that alternative work is brought to the Brough site. and last week another 1,000 jobs in Solihull were If BAE Systems goes ahead with its decision and announced. There are new markets, opportunities and makes people redundant, what legacy will it leave for new products. That is what brought that high-level the community, which has served it very well for many manufacturing company back into good times. years? People have worked there for 20 or 30 years, and I appreciate that there are defence cuts and that BAE whole families work there. What will BAE Systems do? Systems must cut its cloth accordingly, but I hope our What will it leave behind for that community, which will Minister can work with all the constituency MPs from suffer if the decision to make people redundant goes both sides of the House to get a better outcome than ahead? the very sad one that we seem to be faced with at the moment. 1.53 pm 1.57 pm Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I shall make a brief contribution on behalf of my Liberal Democrat Back- Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I thank the right Bench colleagues. This has been an excellent debate. It hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) is a bit disappointing that the Opposition Front Bencher and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston soured it by making political comments, but there we upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) for securing are. this debate. The motion relates to the skills base of the The UK has the largest aerospace sector in Europe UK’s defence production, which many hon. Members and is second only to the USA globally. Aerospace is have mentioned, and the workers who possess those very much the jewel in the crown. It enjoys 5% growth skills are the most important aspect of the debate. year on year and in 2011 turnover was £2 billion. The I have huge concerns about BAE Systems’ decision to fact that the UK has its own defence company is very sack up to 3,000 members of staff and the necessity of important strategically. taking such action. I do not think that the Government The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden have been particularly helpful either. Like many hon. (Mr Davis) said that manufacturing is declining, but it Members, I received a letter from BAE Systems, which is not declining any more. In fact, it is up 2% as a said that on top of the Eurofighter slow-down, one of percentage of gross domestic product, and by 10% in the principal reasons for the labour force reduction was total. a The closure of Brough and the other job losses that “slower than expected ramp up of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter Programme in the US”. have been announced are a tragedy for every single family, but I understand that Brough has not had an However, when asked how that related to the 3,000 job order for the Hawk fighter for more than four years. losses, BAE told my office that it was “unable to quantify” That is a real challenge. I implore the Minister to do all the number of jobs that have been lost as a result of the he can to effect the smoothing of any job losses and to “slower than expected ramp up”. encourage the adoption of any additional services. In It therefore seems odd to assert that as a reason for job fact, if GKN, Airbus and Rolls-Royce can make money losses. I am incredibly concerned by that remark, as it out of commercial aircraft, I do not understand why seems to mean that BAE Systems is planning to sack BAE Systems does not look at that. There is obviously people that it has not yet hired, which is a strange money to be made. human resources model for a company that prides itself On job losses, the hon. Member for Preston (Mark on its employment record. Hendrick) made the point that for every job lost directly Additionally, union officials representing BAE workers from BAE Systems, about four are lost from the supply have told me that there are more people working on the chain. The Government have announced the two enterprise F-35 than there were last year, and that there will be no zones, and it is important that we do not lose those decrease next year. In fact, BAE is still recruiting for the skills—not just the jobs at BAE Systems directly, but F-35. The Chancellor has said on more than one occasion the jobs in the supply chain. that job losses at BAE are down to a reduced F-35 order I have not been intimately involved in the story of from the US, which is not the same as a BAE Systems, unlike right hon. and hon. Members who “slower than expected ramp up”. have spoken, but there seems to be a case to answer, A reduction in projected future vacancies is not the particularly, as the right hon. Member for Haltemprice same as losses resulting from reduced orders. I am and Howden said, for the potential misuse of the intentions worried that BAE is making ambiguous statements of the yellow book. I welcome the Minister’s announcement because the Government are making ambiguous statements. that that will be reviewed, after a long period. The last I pursued this in Defence questions on 14 November, thing we should be doing as a Government is allowing but again was told that job losses were due to reduced companies to make commercial benefit from the sad F-35 orders. I hope that both BAE and the Government situation of job losses. will shed some light on this point, as I am sure this I should like to compare what is happening at BAE House and those 3,000 people who may lose their jobs Systems with what happened at a company that I know would like some clarity. I am told that there have been rather more about from my constituency: Jaguar Land no reductions as yet in the F-35 orders. 499 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 500

I support the motion, and I want the House to make Before coming into the House in 2005, I was the BAE aware that the reason it has been brought before overseas director for QinetiQ, a large UK aerospace the House is because of its particular relationship with company employing 10,000 people. I worked in consortiums, the UK and taxpayers. The UK, and Lancashire and because most modern aerospace is now done by Humberside in particular, have through the years provided consortiums and subcontractors. I have worked with BAE with a great many reasons to be satisfied, and the BAE, Finmeccanica, EADS, General Dynamics, Lockheed UK taxpayer has invested significant resources in supporting Martin, and with many overseas customers, in selling the company’s operations. I would hope that BAE would Britain abroad and, supported by the last Government honour that by continuing to invest in the labour force and this Government, in our embassies, through the and the UK’s manufacturing base. We do not just want Defence Export Services Organisation and Ministers, in letters from BAE telling us how committed it is to the trying to win contracts. So I come with an awareness of labour force. I want BAE in the UK, doing what it does what the real world is like in manufacturing industries. best: manufacturing, exporting and employing people. Eurozone manufacturing, for example—not us, I emphasise The company has a great track record on employment —has shrunk faster in the last quarter than it ever has and on investment in its staff, and I know that to be true since the war. We have a £34 billion black hole in our without being repeatedly told by BAE. One has only to MOD procurement budget, and defence spending cuts look at its links with local colleges and generous around the world are in progress; if the US Congress apprenticeship schemes. cannot reach resolution, they will certainly be made in I want BAE to recognise that it is deeply concerning the United States. These all have a large impact on us to me and other hon. Members that the UK’s commitment and we have to remain competitive, as well as deliver to BAE is apparently not being reciprocated. Comments winning contracts, here and abroad. from a former Defence Minister about UK procurement As for the background to the decision, we have heard moving towards “buying off the shelf”, and BAE’s before about the slow-down in Typhoon, and we do not huge expansion in Texas are worrying. The Government have to repeat the economic problems of Spain and must be committed to a UK defence industry. The Italy, which are two of the partner nations in that concerns of this House must be addressed: otherwise, project, which inevitably mean fewer shifts on fewer BAE cannot justifiably continue to advertise itself on production lines. The joint strike fighter development billboards and taxis as a company whose chief benefit delays involve both technical delays and Congress budget to the UK is the number of people that it employs. hold-ups. We are not in control of that process, but we I want to conclude by making some remarks about are ready to do our best with the JSF. BAE and the the relationship with the wider economy. There is an Government have invested nearly £100 million in the opportunity for the Government to act. It is obvious Samlesbury site to manufacture parts for every single that the Government’s plans for the wider economy are JSF—not just the British JSF, but the US JSF and not working, and it is becoming increasingly obvious everyone else’s. A joint strike fighter bought by anyone that a change of direction is required. Upgrading the in the world will have part of its rear fuselage and some e-scan radar in the RAF’s Typhoon fleet, or investment of its titanium manufacturing parts made in this country in the unmanned aerial vehicles, which we saw successfully by my constituents and those of my colleagues in used in Libya, could secure and create new jobs in neighbouring constituencies. constituencies such as mine. Given the time limit, I shall conclude there. We should not forget that we need to ensure that we secure the JSF programme in the US. The US has a $600 billion defence budget, and we must not forget 2.2 pm that not many countries spend that much. As part of that figure, the US buys many components, not just Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): from BAE but from many British manufacturers. The May I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member C-130 Hercules has 29% of its components from for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and the right hon. British manufacturers. It is made in America, but Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan subcontracted in the UK. It is as important to subcontract Johnson) on securing this debate? I put on record my and make parts as it is to perform final assembly and sympathy for the members of the BAE work force who check-out. have lost their jobs or have had their jobs put under threat—by the recent announcement or, indeed, over I am afraid that I have to disagree with the analysis of the past few years as the aerospace industry has my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and contracted. I also wish to place on the record my thanks Howden about buying only what is made in Britain. to BAE as a business. Both its work force and its The French have gone down that route, and their Rafale management invest in my constituency, not just in plant, aircraft has sold precisely no planes abroad. Their aerospace but in the schools and the community. They do an industry is on its knees and they are desperate to try to excellent job, certainly in Lancashire, in ensuring that privatise some of it or win orders abroad. We go head to they support the community from which they draw head with them in India, and we can try to say to the their employees. Indians or the US, “No, you can’t have anything made In my constituency, I have nearly 3,000 BAE workers there, you can’t final-assembly and check-out your at both Samlesbury and Warton, as well as nearly 3,000 aeroplanes there”, but we are not the only people in the BAE pensioners. We should remember that when we ring. The French are desperate to save their aerospace bash the BAE brand as opposed to the work force, we industry, and there are two US contractors with dollar may damage the share price, which is as important to funds that make us look like midgets. We must do what the pensioners of BAE, many of whom live in the UK, we can, where we can: if it benefits the shareholder and as it is to job opportunities. the work force, that should be our priority. 501 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 502

[Mr Ben Wallace] for a petition. Members across the House have worked hard on this together—it has been a case of non-partisan What can be done? The Government can be tougher politics—which has been helpful. The Hull Daily Mail, in committing to our UAV programme and ensuring too, has run a campaign to protect people at Brough, that it has a long-term future, and I ask BAE to be and should be commended on doing an extremely good much more transparent about increases in orders. job.

2.7 pm 2.13 pm Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): I start Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is a pleasure by congratulating the right hon. Member for Haltemprice to follow my near neighbour and fellow east Yorkshire and Howden (Mr Davis) and my right hon. Friend the MP, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan (Karl Turner). I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend Johnson) on securing this important debate. I come to the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) the debate late, not just because I have been called to and the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull speak late in the debate or because my alarm clock did West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) for securing this important not go off, but because my involvement with BAE goes debate. back only to the last general election when I was elected I cannot add much to the arguments about Brough so to represent Kingston upon Hull East. I bow to the I shall talk about the impact on the local economy. greater experience of right hon. and hon. Members First, though, I shall respond to one or two of the points across the House who have done huge amounts of work made by other Members, starting with my hon. Friend over the years in relation to the company. the Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace). I want to say something about the trade unions at It is a little unfair to suggest that we think that everything BAE Systems in Brough. I have met them on numerous should be bought here in the United Kingdom or that occasions over the past 18 months and they have always there is some sort of magic bullet. We recognise the been very committed to the company. They are pragmatic, requirement for partnership, to which my right hon. and are not the type of trade union that hon. Members Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden referred. on the Government Benches would normally like to We are asking, “Are we getting what we can out of these describe. They are very sensible in what they do and, in contracts, or is the country too subservient in this my experience, have always been very supportive of the sector?” management. But something changed. I met trade union I am delighted that the debate has not turned party representatives in July. Some redundancies had been political or into a Lancashire versus Yorkshire argument, announced at Brough, but they thought that everything which is important to me as a Percy: the Percys fought was going well. As far as they were concerned, nothing on the Lancastrian side despite being a Yorkshire family. was on the horizon. That was also the attitude of the [Interruption.] Actually, we changed sides halfway through management at the time, but on 27 September something because we like to be on the winning side. went wrong and 899 redundancies were announced at Brough. The impact on the individuals concerned is Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. May we clearly massive, and how they found out about the return to BAE? potential redundancies was disgraceful. They found out the same way I did—in the media. Andrew Percy: The point is that this has not been a The work force are flexible and the trade unions are political debate. pragmatic, but from my meetings with the management I am convinced that they have already made up their I want to discuss the impact on east Yorkshire and minds. In my respectful submission, this so-called my constituents in north Lincolnshire, a number of consultation period is a complete nonsense. They seem whom work at BAE Systems. It was brought home to unlikely to change their view, and why would they given me on the day of the announcement when my secretary, the yellow book situation that the right hon. Member whose husband works at BAE, contacted me distraught for Haltemprice and Howden alluded to? I am told that about what was happening. Practically everyone who up to 80% of the redundancy bill will be paid for by the lives in east Yorkshire knows somebody who works at, taxpayer, so when a trade union official said to me or is connected to, the factory. As my colleague and yesterday, “That is me paying for my own redundancy”, near neighbour, the hon. Member for Kingston upon he was absolutely right. Hull East will attest—we were two boys at Hull comprehensives—when we went to school in the ’80s The management have come out fighting. Chris and ’90s if someone wanted an apprenticeship, they got Boardman claims that it is not entirely the company’s one either at BAE Systems or at Saltend with BP. The fault. He said that vast majority of my compatriots and friends at school “we are in a really difficult period and the recession and the action did not go to university but, like their parents, worked—and the current Government has taken has just exacerbated that”. continue to work—at BAE Systems. That might be right but the management have still acted As Members have said on both sides, the company is particularly badly. The Government need to speak to rooted in east Yorkshire, and the impact of its leaving them to see what we can do to save those jobs in my will be indescribable not just on the work force but area. because of the work it does in local schools and through I want to talk about the campaign being run by hon. pairing with universities and colleges. As the hon. Member Members and others. A few Saturdays ago, my hon. for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) said, Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North the Humber economy is in a pretty poor state, and has (Diana Johnson) and I spent some time collecting signatures been for a long time. Over the past 10 years, we have lost 503 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 504 private sector jobs along the Humber at a time when the It is hard to underestimate the appalling hardship rest of the country was growing private sector jobs. We that looms for these communities. While the Astute are in a bad state, and the consequences of losing these programme in Barrow shipyard is maintaining the order 800 jobs will be indescribable. book there, we remember and still feel the scar of the The Minister used the word “disingenuous”. That is 10,000 jobs lost there in the early ’90s and the tale of what we all feel about BAE Systems’ actions. As the long-term benefit dependency, which still remains with hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East said, when us to an extent to this day. It is not only those communities we met BAE Systems in July—the unions and everyone that feel the blow, as this is a hit on the defence industry who has spoken have attested to this—we were told that across the north where synergies between the aerospace although things were tough, the company was expecting and shipbuilding industry jointly support supply chain Hawk contracts and that the most recent round of jobs, which many people will be worried about if these redundancies had secured the site and the business for job cuts go ahead. the future. We expected those contracts to be landed Most of all, of course, this affects individuals. When and those jobs to be secured. I attended BAE’s apprenticeships awards earlier this month, I saw brilliant talent there—people who had Alan Johnson: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that been employed in engineering manufacturing kit to help the specific criterion on which BAE let staff go in the injured troops returning from the front line who were last round of redundancies to which we agreed was that based at the Queen Elizabeth military hospital in it would retain those with the capability to build Hawk? Birmingham. The teams from the affected sites were not That was as recently as this summer. Would it not be clear about what their future would be or whether they strange for BAE not to be aware at that time of the would be able to remain. decision it announced in September? Previous speakers have highlighted the company’s responsibility to rethink. I want to stress the importance Andrew Percy: Absolutely. None of us can explain of the questions facing this and future Governments how in just six weeks the whole world was turned on its about their approach to the defence industry and to head. We have sat through BAE presentations and been maintaining our defence industrial base. In an earlier shown projections going years into the future—although intervention, the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston oddly the line always ends about 2016 and we never get North (Mr Wallace) criticised aspects of the previous to see the line beyond. Despite these predictions, however, Government’s defence industrial strategy as Stalinist. in six weeks the world was turned on its head. Members The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden and people watching can read into that what they wish. pointed to ways in which companies are still able to We have talked about the legacy issues. It is unacceptable offshore, despite agreements put in place in certain for BAE to think that its role is simply to secure work areas. It is a great worry that current Ministers seem for the Brough workers elsewhere in the country. reluctant to take responsibility for helping to shape an Constituents of mine who work at BAE Systems, including overall strategy for industrial capacity. the former mayor of Goole, do not want to leave the local area or uproot themselves from their families; they Mr Wallace: If my memory serves me correctly, the want to stay working in east Yorkshire. After all, along hon. Gentleman was a special adviser in the Ministry of with north Lincolnshire, it is the best part of the country Defence—if not, I apologise, as I would not want to to live in—so why would they wish to leave? They want tarnish him with that accusation. Does he not think it to remain on that site. wrong that under the last Government—it is not about I say to BAE—I hope that the Minister will listen to party—the decision was made to underpin industrial this message and take it forward—that it has a duty to strategy by guaranteeing work for a period, such as for do everything in its power, even if it hits it in the pocket, 15 years on the Clyde, even if contracts were not going to ensure that manufacturing remains on that site, if not to be placed. That would restrict future Governments in through the production of Hawk and other aircraft, deciding the shape of the armed forces and taxpayers’ through securing other companies and third parties on money would be used to compensate for work that did the site. It cannot walk away from Brough. It cannot not actually exist. The Government were the contractor. say, “Well, we’ve done everything we want to do. We’ll help to find them jobs.” It has a duty to secure that site, John Woodcock: Agreements that secured work in the and we, as local Members of Parliament—and, I hope, UK were really important. Where there are lessons to with the support of the Government—will do everything be learned from how those agreements were put in that we can to ensure just that. place, we should learn them, but the current Government have turned their backs on this whole approach and that is a cause for considerable alarm. At a time when 2.19 pm the Prime Minister and the Business Secretary are talking John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): about reforming the Government’s overall procurement It is good to follow the hon. Member for Brigg and process to try to encourage more jobs here in the UK Goole (Andrew Percy). I shall take up some of the and to protect supply chains, I hope that such an points about which he spoke so well. We have also approach will be meaningfully reflected in a rethink by listened to powerful speeches from the right hon. Member the Ministry of Defence and in its forthcoming White for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my right Paper. hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West Whatever the balance of responsibility between and Hessle (Alan Johnson). I hope that the company Government and suppliers for ensuring that the current will listen to them, make this consultation genuine and crisis is addressed and the future set more securely, we rethink its approach to the jobs currently set to go. need to remember that it is not just the economic 505 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 506

[John Woodcock] to retain the defence infrastructure and capability for a variety of strategic and economic reasons, including the implications for areas that are important—as, indeed, benefits that flow from that in jobs, development, R and they are—because what happens affects our ability to D, new technologies and exports. In 2009, BAE exported protect our country and support the front line. I have about £4.9 billion-worth of equipment, expertise and gone around and talked to companies and small businesses knowledge from the UK. That is very valuable for our that are part of the supply chain about how they have economy and helpful to the Exchequer. been able to speed up getting vital equipment to troops BAE is a product of a series of policies. This debate on the front line for urgent operational requirements in sends an important message to the company. If by the Afghanistan. If our industrial base shrinks and we end decisions it takes it loses the skills base that allows it to up knocking on the door of foreign companies when we be competitive, and if it stops delivering, or reduces, the know we need new kit to ensure that we can have an jobs benefits and economic advantages to this country, edge on the battlefield, we will not have anything like there is a danger that those who propose a more purist the same level of guarantee that we will be able to free-market approach to defence procurement will feel accomplish that. that their argument is strengthened. BAE’s great strength Finally, in an uncertain world, we simply cannot is that it has provided British jobs, growth, investment, know what our defence requirements are going to be in technology and research. If it loses skilled workers and decades ahead. It could significantly increase the nation’s finds itself having to re-recruit when future contracts vulnerability if we allow our prized industrial base to are secured, thereby driving up its costs and driving shrink from here. down its competitiveness as well as damaging our skills base nationally, it will weaken its future prospects and Several hon. Members rose— strengthen the argument of those who believe that we should be looking to buy more off the shelf and to rely Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We on others to do the heavy lifting of developing defence have three more speakers. I shall allow them their five technologies, all of which are expensive. Although at minutes each, but I strongly discourage any interventions heart I am a free marketeer, I am extremely concerned during their speeches. that BAE might take a decision that benefits its short-term profit margin but in the long term could damage its capabilities, strategic position and ability to compete 2.25 pm successfully for British contracts. James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): I congratulate I am concerned that the arguments of those who do hon. Members of all parties on what has been a passionate not believe in, or support, our home-grown defence and heartfelt debate on behalf of constituents right production infrastructure will be made stronger by what across the country. It is always reassuring when there is appears to be a short-term decision that will benefit a consensus across the political divide on an issue of neither the company nor this country. I therefore urge such importance. BAE to listen to what Members have said today, and to I shall speak primarily about one facet of this decision— look at the options available to it. I ask it to reconsider the policy that successive Governments of whatever its decision at this time of great economic need for the colour have taken towards defence procurement and United Kingdom, and to come to a different decision how it should be considered by BAE as it moves forward. that would be better for its long-term future and that of In broad terms, there are two camps on defence its work force. procurement. There are those who believe—we have heard some of their arguments put forward eloquently 2.30 pm today—in the strategic imperative of retaining our defence industrial production base: our capability as a nation of Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): building our own defence and aerospace systems. At I speak in this debate both as a member of the Defence one extreme, that could mean everything from building Committee and a constituency Member who has an the wings and canopy on a fighter jet to supplying the interest in the future of BAE Systems. There is a plant bullets that go in SA80 A2. That is a valid argument in Hillend in south Fife that employs more than 200 BAE that retains an integrity and strategic independence for workers and makes radar components for the Typhoon the UK, which has been valued highly by Governments aircraft. for many years. This has been a remarkably consensual debate. I have At the other end of the spectrum—the other argument a positive view of BAE Systems; it does a tremendous put forward by the likes of Lewis Page in his book, amount of good work in my constituency. Last week I “Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs”—is the suggestion visited the Abbeyview day centre; for its 25th anniversary, and proposal that we should buy “off the shelf” and BAE gave it a grant of about £1,800 to allow it to continue look to find the most effective but also cheapest option to provide support to our older citizens, many of whom that meets our defence requirements and needs. We are pensioners who previously worked at BAE. should not falsely subsidise an industry, as some argue, The hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) for strategic reasons when so many other countries talked about buying off the shelf. I believe BAE, along across the world supply their defence needs by “off the with many other defence industry companies, produces shelf”methods because they do not have that home-grown some first-rate exports. The Typhoon aircraft proved capability. itself superbly during Operation Ellamy in the skies The reality for BAE is that it is a company that is a above Libya, and we look forward to the arrival of the product of political decisions taken over many years. It F-35 Lightning II. It is worth noting that the Lightning is a product of decisions taken by the British Government I, which was made by one of the predecessors of BAE 507 BAE Systems24 NOVEMBER 2011 BAE Systems 508

Systems, BAC, was the finest jet aircraft of its generation manufacturing industry can be a ruthless and competitive and a testament to what British aeronautical engineering business, and we must bear in mind the impact on can achieve. individuals, families and communities. He also mentioned The Defence Committee did, however, have some that Britain no longer makes jets. That is true, but we do concerns about the ongoing cost issues in respect of the make an awful lot of parts. We are part of various F35. Those concerns are shared by our colleagues in the consortiums, and that is the way forward, as it is in the Senate Armed Services Committee. We have communicated car manufacturing industry. It is difficult to think of those concerns to the Minister, and I have discussed aircraft that do not utilise engines from Rolls-Royce, them with him on several occasions. I know that he is wings from Airbus and so on. That is the way of the committed to ensuring that BAE Systems and other world and we can at least be proud of the extent to companies do not allow costs to ramp up beyond control. which we are part of the great defence consortiums. The Defence Committee welcomes the Minister’s response The Minister was right to remind the House that this to our last report. He announced that some of the country still has the second largest defence industry in Ministry of Defence’s best minds are currently working the world, and our share of exports has indeed increased on the F-35 procurement programme. in the past year. My right hon. Friend the Member for It is disappointing that not a single Scottish National Haltemprice and Howden also mentioned the concern party Member has taken part in this debate. One might that jobs involved in putting together these products, speculate that that is because they are part-timers, or particularly the Hawk, are going to India. He countered because the SNP would, in its separate Scotland, destroy my intervention by saying that I was absolutely right the defence industry in Scotland. Members on both and that although we do export the M-777 and the sides of the House have talked about the value of jobs, empennage—the rear end—of the F-35, perhaps BAE and it is worth remembering that there are more than Systems could look more wisely at things, particularly 4,000 BAE Systems employees on the Clyde working on future upstream developments such as the Mantis, the shipbuilding. I have a number of BAE Systems staff Taranis, the Type 26 and other intelligence, surveillance, working at Rosyth on the aircraft carrier Alliance, target acquisition and reconnaissance—ISTAR—assets alongside their Babcock colleagues. They are engaged which could be built in the UK rather than elsewhere. in ship assembly and refitting work. Those jobs would He also made an important point about executive pay, be lost in a separate Scotland. The SNP has offered no and restraint could be shown there. alternative to that. We are being affected by an economic slowdown and Nor has the SNP explained what the future of the that does cause a review of budgets, not least in the RAF or a Scottish air force would be. It has given no United States. That is why we are affected by what is idea of the type or size of the Scottish air force. One can happening with the F-35B, because it is American orders only assume it will not be buying any F-35s. It has said that are having an impact on us. That is not a decision nothing about how many Typhoon aircraft it would made by our Government. However, this Government purchase. We can only assume from that lack of information have had to make some very difficult decisions. Along that it does not see a future for BAE Systems in Scotland, with other Departments, the MOD received a cut of and that it would not offer any defence work to companies 7.5%. In addition, as confirmed by the Audit Commission’s such as Babcock and BAE. report in 2009, there was a £38 billion overspend on The fact that this has been a consensual debate is to procurement projects that had to be contained. be welcomed. In that spirit, I hope the Minister will That raises the question about the involvement of the promise to work with the trade unions in making the Government: how far do any Government get involved case for the defence industry in the UK. It is important in the decision-making process of the defence industry, that we continue to have exports around the world and particularly in securing orders? As has been mentioned, that the Ministry of Defence sees part of its role as there is a decision to be made about whether to buy maintaining the business model for companies such as off-the-shelf or have procurement processes. The first BAE Systems and Babcock. The MOD should be step is to have a strategic defence policy and a review to proactively going out and selling the virtues of the make sure that there is clarity about where we want to Typhoon and the F-35 Lightning II. I hope that the go. Let us consider what happened in Afghanistan. The Minister will undertake to do that in the months ahead. replacement of the Snatch Land Rover took some time, and the Cougar, Vector, Jackal, Mastiff and Ridgback were procured off the shelf and then, in one way or 2.34 pm another, got rid of. At the same time, BAE Systems Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is made the RG31, a mine protected vehicle used in South pleasure to be the final contributor to this important Africa, and the MRAP—mine resistant ambush debate, and I begin, as others have done, by congratulating protected—vehicles, which were used by the Americans, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West but both those were ignored. and Hessle (Alan Johnson) and my right hon. Friend Mention has been made of the Nimrod, but that is a the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) very sad tale indeed. The first contract was signed in on securing it. Some interesting messages have emerged 1996 for delivery in 2003, but by 2010, when the coalition from it, both for the Government and for BAE Systems. Government were formed, not a single aircraft had been My right hon. Friend began by highlighting the delivered. The cost of each aircraft had also jumped importance of these decisions and the impact they will from £133 million to £455 million, which is a huge have on families where redundancies are involved, not increase. This aircraft was of course based on the Comet only in his constituency—in Brough, which I know well, design—it was a 1960s design. That was an appalling as I was married just up the road in Kilnwick—but procurement project and eventually it had to come to across the country, as 3,000 jobs are going. The defence an end. 509 BAE Systems 24 NOVEMBER 2011 510

[Mr Tobias Ellwood] Manufacturing

I shall end my contribution by saying that I am very Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I remind the pleased that we are having this debate, as there are huge House that there is a five-minute limit on Back-Bench lessons to be learned in the procurement process. I am contributions, but not for the first two speakers, the pleased that we have come forward with a defence Minister and the shadow Minister. industrial strategy. Redundancies are always regrettable and I hope that BAE Systems and the Government will 2.39 pm take heed of the various messages that have come from hon. Members on both sides of the House in this Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I beg to move, debate. That this House has considered the matter of the future of Question put and agreed to. manufacturing. Resolved, Manufacturing should be at the heart of any long-term plan for economic growth. It is a sleeping giant that, if That this House urges BAE Systems to act to preserve the UK’s defence production skills base and, as a recipient of enormous revived, would become the backbone of a strong UK resources over many years from the UK taxpayer, to deploy those economy. It is entirely right that, five days before the resources in such a way as to protect the nation’s manufacturing autumn statement, we should have the opportunity to capability. debate the subject in broad terms in the House. I thank the Backbench Business Committee and the House of Commons staff for their assistance in bringing this matter before the House and, in particular, I pay tribute to my co-sponsors, the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) and the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), who have adopted an all-party approach to this problem which affects us all. It is well known that I used to be a jockey and a lawyer, so it is legitimate to ask how on earth I can have any credibility in speaking about manufacturing. All MPs do, because we all have small and medium-sized enterprises that make something in our constituencies. We all have credibility on this issue. My family came to this country as immigrants. They were engineers, specialising in gears. In May 1924, in the depths of a very bad recession, they set up Opperman Gears in a basement in Albemarle way in Clerkenwell. It had four staff—my great-grandfather and his three sons—who worked in the basement on two lathes, three milling machines and a couple of tools. They had borrowed £110 from a distant relative to set up the business. It grew rapidly and by early 1939 it moved to Newbury, where my family set up a larger firm that was able to produce the parts for the Wellington bomber with its long-term partner, Vickers. We do not run that company any more, but I should declare that I am a shareholder in the small manufacturing business run by my father and that my family members are involved in a number of different manufacturing businesses up and down the country. I should also make it clear that I resigned my directorship of the family business in 2009 and am not paid by it in any way. I should also declare that I am a whole-hearted supporter of my local manufacturing businesses in the north-east, notably Kilfrost, EGGER, SCA, Agma and others, and their financial support allowed the charitable functions I ran this summer in the constituency. I should declare an indirect link, in that a director of one of those firms made a contribution to my association. I hope I am doing my bit to try to create jobs. I was the second Member of this House to employ an apprentice and I urge those Members who have not to do so. She is a young lady who works in my office in Hexham and who has been with me now for nearly a year, and is doing extremely well. Members of all parties can take on apprentices—it is allowed under the rules—and I urge them to do it. 511 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 512

The scale of the manufacturing deficit is huge. The Government and the manufacturers of this country? nations that expanded post-war specialised in and pushed Businesses would be able to go directly to the person manufacturing. Those nations—Germany, Japan, Taiwan, who could give them the answer they required rather Korea and China—knew what they were doing. Today, than having to go through myriad Departments? People the services sector alone can prop up Britain no longer get lost in that process—even Ministers sometimes, I and there is a strong argument for greater industrialisation imagine—and if we had someone who could be accessed and changing things. We have seen the demise of directly and who reported directly to the Prime Minister, manufacturing—it was 20% of gross domestic product that would be a major asset to the Government. in 1997 and is now 11%—and there is a strong argument for specialising not just in high-tech industry but in Guy Opperman: I completely agree. To put it in the other industries, which are often derogatively labelled vernacular, we need a go-to guy who is the one person “metal-bashing”. Their products are unassuming, even looking after manufacturing. if they are created by some of the most precise machines on the planet. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Or a go-to girl! My constituency is in Northumberland and my four biggest non-public sector employers are all manufacturers. Guy Opperman: Of course, it could be a woman—I The north-east might be the birthplace of ships and accept that entirely. I was using the term generically. steel, but we have reinvented ourselves. I was pleased to Such a Minister could provide co-ordinated responses see SCA recognised in the Government-backed “Made to the concerns of manufacturing businesses. Having by Britain” awards, which were so ably organised by the such a Minister would send out a message that this hon. Member for Huddersfield. That company employs really matters. I challenge anyone to say that that is not about 435 local people in Prudhoe, including 60 apprentices. a good idea. It is something that successive Governments It could not be doing any more to support its local have consistently failed to do, and I do not blame community. It does not make glamorous, eye-catching previous Governments for that, but doing it would send products—or perhaps some people think it does—but it out a positive message for the future. produces one in every five toilet rolls in this country, as The second issue I want to address is banking and the well as vast quantities of paper towels. I am sure we all chronic deficit that every Member of the House must be agree that those are essential products. facing in their constituency—a lack of bank financing for businesses. Every one of us, in every constituency Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Flushed with surgery, will regularly have businesses coming to us and success. saying, “I cannot get the funding I need,” or “I cannot get the borrowing I used to have.” It is a chronic Guy Opperman: It is, indeed, flushed with success, as problem. Much good work is done by business angels my hon. Friend so ably quips from the sidelines—as and credit unions—those hon. Members who attend the always, he is on the money. The wood pulp goes in at debate on credit unions yesterday will know that very one end of the factory and paper products come out the positive steps were discussed there—but when it comes other. The machinery is highly technical; this is modern to bank finance, the system of the main banks is clearly manufacturing in the modern age. logjammed. What can we do about that? In this time of austerity, I am extremely proud that Currently, to set up a bank one needs £110 million-worth the north-east has a positive balance of trade and is the of assets—of cash, effectively—or the Financial Services only region consistently to do so. We should trumpet Authority will not allow it. If the FSA relaxed that rule the fact that the North East chamber of commerce is or changed the figure to £10 million, for example, then the only regional chamber of commerce in the country. prominent local businessmen or businesses in a local It represents more than 4,000 businesses and takes up community could set up a local bank. more than 30% of the region’s work force. If I had to Traditionally, the problem has always been that banks single out one local concern that it has highlighted to go bust, as they did in the 1920s and ’30s, because they me from the multitude of things it would like to be over-borrow and over-lend in effect. If there were a done, it would be to urge the Minister to conduct the restriction such that they could not exceed the money review that it is hoped will be undertaken of the planned held on deposit with the Bank of England, the only loss carbon floor price and other climate change and energy- that could be sustained would be the funds in that bank. related matters. The effect would be true localism. Someone could set How are we to address the manufacturing deficit? I up the bank of Hexham—or, in the Minister’s case, the have three main suggestions. First, we need a Minister bank of Bognor—and that bank would be specifically for manufacturing. That is not to decry the efforts of focused on providing small and medium-sized enterprise the Minister with responsibility for business or the lending to local businesses. Business Secretary, both of whom are worthy men, or those of any parties in that Department. However, the The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David fact remains that, according to the House of Commons Willetts): In my case, it might be the bank of Havant, Library, there has not been a Minister for manufacturing rather than the bank of Bognor. since 1945. Guy Opperman: There could be competition throughout Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): In my constituency, the region. That would not be difficult. Would it not be I get a lot of requests from local manufacturing companies great if we had some competition among local banks? for advice on various issues, mainly in relation to exports and where to go for help with them. Does my hon. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): In Pendle, a local Friend agree that a Minister with responsibility specifically businessman called David Fishwick is trying to do for manufacturing would be a major asset to the exactly what my hon. Friend suggests. He is trying to 513 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 514

[Andrew Stephenson] those sums in bank bonds, for some of that money to go into an industry bank, so that it would go directly to the create his own bank to help small and medium-sized people who need it most and who are creating the jobs enterprises in Pendle and Burnley. The regulations are and growth that we all want and need? so detailed and engrossing that the FSA has refused to I must conclude my remarks. I urge the Government help him, despite his instructing high-flying lawyers. So to have a more pro-business policy. Others will talk of far, it has even refused to meet him to discuss the what the Government are doing and the positive steps creation of a bank that would directly help small and they are taking, but I put in a plea for flexibility. There medium-sized manufacturers in Pendle and Burnley. are repeated examples in my constituency of viable and successful businesses being penalised heavily for being a Guy Opperman: I will give way again. day late with their tax returns, or three days late with Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): The hon. Gentleman has their VAT returns. Effectively, the Government are obviously excited a lot of interest with his suggestion. penalising those who are working the hardest to create Will he consider the American model of community the jobs that we need. I thank the House for its indulgence. banks, which have stood the test of time and served their communities? 2.55 pm Guy Opperman: My hon. Friend anticipates my next Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): My move, which is to say that such matters are already sincere apologies for arriving two minutes after the hon. road-tested in other jurisdictions in other countries. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) started his speech, Sadly, the FSA is reluctant to change its regulatory but I think I caught the gist of it. We have worked system. I have heard other examples of its failing to harmoniously in calling for this debate, and I am delighted meet individuals who want to provide local financing— that we are having it today, and that it is cross-party. something that would be immensely good for local The group of us who are associated with the all-party communities and could provide a flexible approach. manufacturing group are very pleased about that. My Instead of being stuck with a loan from Barclays, for interest in manufacturing has obviously been a total example, people would have a much lower flexible interest failure. I have been in this House for more than 30 years, rate and adopt a much more interesting way to recuperate and I started the manufacturing group not long after I their finances at a later stage when the company was in got into Parliament. Ever since the original all-party profit. Banking would be local. We all know what manufacturing group started, our manufacturing sector happens when we are approached by a constituent when has shrunk and shrunk, under all parties and all a business is in trouble. The decisions in relation to such Governments. financing are made not in Hexham or Newcastle or I represent Huddersfield, the cradle of the even in the north-east, but in a place such as Nottingham industrialisation of our country. Anyone who knows or Leatherhead or, ultimately, in London. That must anything about my part of the world will know that change. even today it is a centre for the highest-quality wool textiles—super-100 and super-110 worsteds and so on. Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Does my hon. Friend It is also very well known for its engineering, for David agree that the banks in his example would facilitate help Brown gears and many other manufacturing companies, for some of the failures in respect of the enterprise and of course for chemicals, which come from the finance guarantee scheme? There are 4.8 million SMEs, traditional industry of dyestuffs for textiles. but the Government are targeting only 6,000 of them Huddersfield became an industrial town because of with help through the EFG at the moment. power. The energy coming from the fast-flowing streams from the Pennines—the Holme, the Colne and the Guy Opperman: My proposal would provide an Calder—attracted industry because that is what made alternative way forward for the financing that those the mills work. That is how we got industry in our part businesses clearly need. I suggest that the Minister take of the world. It was a manufacturing town. There was it back to the future Minister of manufacturing and the not much in Huddersfield; there was the old village of Treasury, with a view to trying to move forward. I am Almondbury, which is a bit of a market town, and an conscious of the time, so I will not take any further ancient place, but the modern town is 18th and interventions. predominantly 19th century. Some 70% of the population My next suggestion is an industry bank. We could would have been in the manufacturing sector. We are extend the remit of the existing green investment bank now down to about 8.9% manufacturing employment in to form a general enterprise bank, for which there are the constituency, whereas 86.7% of employment is in successful models in Germany and the United States. various forms of services; 33% is in health, education, The German KFW—a product of Germany’s social market or working for the local authority. We are lucky to have tradition—and the US Small Business Administration a large and successful university, Huddersfield university, industry bank are specialists in long-term lending to SMEs, which is pre-eminent in engineering, textiles and design and they are effectively financed by their Governments, innovation, but that does not disguise the fact that we with a bottom line of commercial viability and social are pre-eminently in the service sector; 87% of employment benefit. is in services of various kinds. Unemployment is at its The blueprint also exists in this country. What is highest level since I became a Member of Parliament. presently 3i, which is a FTSE 100 company, was originally the UK Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation, Gordon Birtwistle: Does the hon. Gentleman agree which had tremendous success when it was set up. On that the collapse of manufacturing in Huddersfield, practical realisation, given that we have quantitative which has gone from 30% or 40% of employment to easing, would it not be better, instead of investing all 8%, is significant given that youth unemployment is so 515 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 516 high? Huddersfield’s colleges are training young people I remember walking across the hallowed lawns of Magdalen to be engineers and manufacturers, yet the collapse of college with the master some years ago. I asked him manufacturing industry means that the jobs are not whether any of his graduates go into manufacturing or there any more for them to do. Manufacturing has been public service. He replied, “Oh no, they all go into the overtaken by the services sector. Does he agree that it is City.” If we continue to make the City and banking the high time we reversed the trend towards the services profession of choice, we will be in even more trouble sector and returned to a buoyant manufacturing sector, than we are in at the moment. which could employ those young people? Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): Mr Sheerman: I would go 90% of the way with the My hon. Friend is drawing attention to the place of hon. Gentleman, but I would not accept the word engineering in academic ambition. Does he welcome, as “collapse”, because we still have a vibrant, though a corrective to the problem, the recently announced much smaller, manufacturing sector in engineering and Queen Elizabeth prize for engineering, a £1 million chemicals. The textiles, engineering and chemicals industries prize overseen by the Royal Academy of Engineering, are still there, and have very high productivity, but the which is designed precisely to elevate the status of capability now is such that we turn out an enormous engineering, creativity and innovation for the next generation amount of worsted in a crinkly shed—not one of the of young people? magnificent old stone mills—that is working 24/7. I think we underrate the productivity of some of those Mr Sheerman: I agree absolutely and was going to industries. mention that. I was also going to mention the Aldridge I do not want to make Members suicidal, but let us Foundation and Rod Aldridge, who founded Capita. compare the decline of the UK’s manufacturing sector He puts a great deal of money into education and is with that of other countries before moving on to something absolutely obsessed with finding entrepreneurs and giving more cheerful. In Great Britain around 8.8% of employment them a chance to become successful. is in manufacturing. Some figures for 2008 indicate We must ensure that there is reward for the risk of 9.8% for manufacturing and 80.8% for services. Things being an entrepreneur. We have to be open about the are very similar, if not worse, in the United States, fact that that is what we want to reward. No one on where employment in 2009 was 8.9% in manufacturing either side of the House should fail to realise that. I do and 83.4% in services. The decline of manufacturing in not mind seeing entrepreneurs getting super salaries. I the UK has very much gone in parallel with the experience have a great deal of sympathy with some aspects of the of the US. By comparison, Germany still has 18.5% in 99% campaign, but I do not mind people earning a manufacturing and 73% in services, and China has great deal of money and being rewarded if they are 27.8% in manufacturing and 53% in services. entrepreneurs who produce jobs and wealth. I am worried I want to draw the House’s attention to the UK’s when people in pretty safe and comfortable jobs, who balance of trade, particularly the trade deficit with are never going to risk anything, get millions of pounds Germany, which last year was £16.8 billion, and with a year. That is what I do not like. China, which was £21.6 billion. Whatever is happening On skills and training, the STEM subjects are neglected today, and despite the depressing interview with Chancellor in our country, and we need more young people to stay Merkel last night, which persuaded me that we are on with science, technology, engineering and mathematics the precipice of a world recession, we must remember longer. that Germany has been very fortunate and that the eurozone has been very kind to German manufacturers Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Many engineering over this period, as has the renminbi, the Chinese entrepreneurs, past and present, started out as apprentices, currency, which the Chinese conveniently manipulate to so does my hon. Friend agree that if we put more give their manufacturing exports every possible advantage. energy, resources, money and time into apprentices we I want to dwell on the future and what kind of society might see more entrepreneurs? we want. It seems to me that we want a wealth-creating society that produces the goods and wealth that can Mr Sheerman: I absolutely agree, and I will come on then be shared. Some of us disagree about the levels of to that issue. individual and corporate taxation, but we all agree that The slight disagreement between me and the Secretary we have to produce the wealth in order to share it, of State for Education has occurred because I believe whatever way we chose to do so. I am concerned that if that young people who are not very academic but quite we do not do something in the manufacturing sector we good at practical subjects will lose out on an opportunity will not have very much to share. if we remove design and technology as an option, focus What do we depend on? A core element at every level on the more rarefied academic subjects and push the of activity is the fact that in every facet of human more hands-on subjects to one side. experience success depends on the quality of the people After the Tomlinson report, we lost diplomas, and who do the job, their skills and commitment and their that was the fault of the Blair Government, but the role desire to do a good job. In the 10 years that I chaired the of our universities is one thing that we can say is Education and Skills Committee, that came home time brilliant. If it was not for our universities, I would and again. The history of our country is one of clever despair. They are increasingly working with entrepreneurs and skilled people with ingenuity, determination and a and the manufacturing hinterland, and that must be hunger to do something. We have had an amazing crop rewarded. We need more links between universities and of entrepreneurs. At the heart of our manufacturing further education colleges, of which there are about problem is the fact that too many people in our country 450 in this country, and they really need to work much who go to university do not go into manufacturing. more closely, so that they turn out the young people 517 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 518

[Mr Sheerman] manufacturing output. Today, that title has been bestowed on China, which produced a fifth of the world’s that local industry needs. We should not pretend that all manufactured trade in 2007. The term seems to have apprenticeships are three-year courses in engineering, lost some of its meaning over time, as has the notion of because they are not; the average length of an apprenticeship Britain as an industrial nation. is one year to 15 months, but they are not good enough; Everyone appears to believe that the UK is doing fine they are not proper apprenticeships. when it comes to manufacturing, citing the fact that we On design, anybody who wants to know or who cares are the fifth largest manufacturer in the world in terms about the creative industries should look at Sir George of value of output. That attitude has bred complacency Cox’s review of them and their relationship with enterprise, and allowed successive Governments to believe that innovation and manufacturing. If we were to ask him, they are doing enough to maintain that position. However, “What is the one thing that could transform this country’s that belies the truth. If we measure manufacturing in manufacturing success and wealth creation?” he would terms of per capita value added, we realise that Britain tell us, “It’s the supply chain and how this country and is only around 12th in the international league tables, its Departments procure. At the very heart of making a and suddenly the picture changes dramatically. great change, it’s procurement that will do it.” It is clear that if we are to rebalance our economy, I could have covered other things today, but I finish much more must be done to push us up the rankings. on this point. In this country, we are still pussyfooting That means providing support for all forms of around competition. I have grown up to be a free trader, manufacturing, rather than just the high-tech sectors with the belief that we are a trading nation and should that seem to be so fashionable at the moment. It has not have any barriers to trade, but I am changing my been calculated that those sectors make up only 14% of mind. I do not believe that this country, at this moment British manufacturing and it has been advocated that in time, with the imbalance in exports and imports the support for manufacturing should be based on between ourselves and Germany and China, can possibly value, not the complexity of the product. For example, accept the situation for much longer. Something pretty the UK still produces basic metal turbine blades, but dramatic has to be done, especially when research they are cut by some of the most precise machines on increasingly shows that China, that wonderful, not very the planet. The product is simple but very high value, democratic industrial nation that is growing very fast thanks to the advanced production process. every year, conducts a form of economic warfare against any area where it feels there is competition. There is no question but that such a shift must take place. The financial crisis made most people aware that Let us look at the way in which the Chinese seek raw the UK cannot rely on the financial services’ trade materials, resources, minerals and rare earths. An expert surplus to prop up the industrial trade deficit. However, from a university told me yesterday, “If you want to it is less well known that, according to the Office for know who’s going to move into Afghanistan in 2015, it National Statistics, even the financial sector’s maximum will be the Chinese, because Afghanistan has more of export volume of £55 billion in 2008 was eclipsed by the rare earths that China wants than anywhere else.” manufacturing’s £195 billion of exports. The Chinese will be there in 2015, as they already are in Africa and throughout the world, and they also The problem is twofold. First, our manufacturing manipulating currencies and targeting specific industries ability is only rivalled by our insatiable appetite for other in a way that we have only just begun to comprehend. people’s goods. That has led to the latest trade in goods So there is economic warfare, and it is about time that deficit of almost £100 billion—a new record. Secondly, the Treasury, with other Ministries, was conscious of Britain has grown complacent. Our manufacturing output this: manufacturing matters in this country. We need has remained constant for the past 13 years under skills and entrepreneurs, but we have to have fair Labour, which is a reduction of £3.5 billion per annum competition with competing nations. in real terms. Where did it all go wrong for UK industry? Contrary Several hon. Members rose— to popular assumptions, although some deindustrialisation did occur under Margaret Thatcher, the bulk of the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. As we factory closures came later. Indeed, when Labour took are approaching the festive season, I will play an early office in 1997, manufacturing comprised exactly a fifth Father Christmas and set the time limit at 10 minutes. of the UK economy. By 2007, it had declined to an eighth. In comparison, under the whole of the 3.9 pm Thatcher Administration, the decline was 3.3%. The Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I congratulate loss of our manufacturing capabilities is a very recent my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) concern, which should fill us with a certain level of on securing the debate. Apart from a brief spell stacking optimism. shelves in my local Co-op in Poynton, I have worked in the manufacturing industry for my entire career. Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): Interestingly, my first manufacturing job as a young So far, the debate has been conducted on a reasonable man was working for BAE Systems on the mark 3 cross-party basis. However, given the fact that the hon. airborne early warning Nimrods. After a lot of taxpayers’ Gentleman has made a political assertion, can I point money, that was rightly cancelled because it was over out that in the black country, at least four huge budget and out of date and did not work. manufacturing employers—Round Oak steelworks, Patent When Britain was described as the workshop of the Shaft steelworks, Bean Cars and Cannon—were closed world nearly a century and a half ago in 1870, the UK during the Thatcher era? That had a devastating impact accounted for almost half—46%—of the world’s on the level of employment in the black country. 519 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 520

Graham Evans: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s Graham Evans: I agree with my hon. Friend. We have intervention. At the beginning of my speech, I made the a reputation for very good, world-beating research and point that all Governments of all political persuasions development, but it goes beyond that—when we have have contributed to the overall decline. I take on board discovered these things, we still have to ensure that we the closures in his constituency. All Governments need make them in this country. to learn the lessons of the past, but that does not mean The Germans try to ensure that their young people that we should underestimate the problem. appreciate manufacturing. Eliciting such a response Let us consider energy-intensive manufacturing sectors, from British children, compared with their counterparts which include the chemical, steel, glass and paper production in Germany, is increasingly difficult as they grow up. industries among others. The chemical industry is of Initial curiosity about industrial work might be particular importance in my constituency, where Tata dismissed as selling themselves short by parents and and INEOS Chlor are still major employers in Northwich teachers, and by the time the most able leave school, and Runcorn. According to Waters Wye Consulting, university is the only option, with apprenticeships considered policies such as the EU’s emissions trading scheme and by some to be second rate. The closest many of the next the unilateral carbon price floor mean that the average generation get to manufacturing is printing off a computer energy-intensive company’s energy bill will rise from document. Little wonder that youth unemployment hit £3 million now to £17 million in 2020—an untenable 1 million last week; many do not have the skills needed level for the majority of these firms, which simply by manufacturers, thus further encouraging those cannot afford to continue production in the UK. Proponents manufacturers to relocate their businesses elsewhere, to of these policies argue that energy-intensive sectors the increasing detriment of British growth. As I have account for only 1% of GDP and so do not matter. If repeatedly said in this Chamber, we need to educate our we quantify that figure, it equates to a potential loss to children in a manner that will enable them to become the UK economy of £15 billion and 290,000 jobs. More the engineers, scientists and entrepreneurs that this widely, the Royal Society of Chemistry claims that country needs to pay its way in the world. £220 billion of GDP and 5.1 million jobs are partly With the average age of those in industrial employment reliant on UK chemical research alone. Clearly, the at 40 and rising—50 in some sectors, such as chemicals— visible threat to UK manufacturing is only the tip of the drastic action is required. British manufacturing is at a iceberg, but the problem is that most people do not crossroads. It can grow, bringing jobs to those who need realise that. them and contributing to reducing the deficit, or it can British industrial decline, relatively speaking, is in decline further, with valuable businesses permanently sharp contrast to the experiences of our neighbours—in lost. There is reason to believe that the former positive particular, Germany. German long-term support for outcome is more likely if we commit to making it manufacturing means that it now possesses the economic happen. The Government have made a strong start. clout to dominate Europe. Given the UK’s and Germany’s That this debate is happening is hugely positive and widely different starting positions 60 years ago, it is shows that we recognise the seriousness of the problem. clear that it has done something that we have not, and The solutions that we need involve major changes both that something is valuing industry. From post-war culturally, in widening our appreciation for manufacturing, restructuring to reunification, Germany has always and practically, in creating a more positive environment recognised that manufacturing was the backbone of its for industry. Let us make it in Britain. Let us make economy and therefore never enacted policies that would Britain great again. endanger it. Indeed, political infrastructures were set up to nurture industry, especially mittelstand—or, as we refer to them, small and medium-sized companies or 3.20 pm SMEs. Foremost among those tools stands KfW, the Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): state-backed bank that ensures that mittelstand can I have taken part in a number of debates on this matter access funding even when the commercial banks are over the years, including as a Minister in the previous unwilling to lend. The value of such an institution was Government and as an Opposition spokesman after the seen in the financial crisis. According to its accounts, in election. Such debates often follow a similar pattern. 2010 KfW financed a record ¤28.5 billion for SMEs, Labour Members talk about the great wave of industrial amounting to approximately 94% of all its commitments closures that happened in the 1980s. We had a flavour of for the year. Without KfW, the potential for many extra that a minute or two ago. Government Members are jobs and exports would have never been realised for tempted to say that manufacturing declined as a proportion Germany. of GDP under the Labour Government. It all gets a bit It is hard to understand how far the value of German familiar. Whatever the rights and wrongs of those industry goes. Youngsters are encouraged from an early arguments, they are united by two things. First, they age to appreciate the importance of making things. tend to look in the rear-view mirror. Secondly, they take little account of the huge wave of globalisation and the enormous technological advances of the past 20 years. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the key elements of Nobody can underestimate the importance to every Germany’s success is its investment in research and developed economy, including ours, of the opening up development? We need to be encouraging that. Jaguar of China as the factory of the world. To try to pin that Land Rover is building a new factory in my constituency on any single Government is to miss the point. No and investing in R and D, and the Government could go country is immune from its effects. Whatever product a long way towards helping that by reviewing R and D one makes, the chances are that it takes fewer people to tax credits, which the Treasury is considering at the make it today than it would have taken 20 years ago. It moment. takes fewer people and fewer person hours to make a 521 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 522

[Mr Pat McFadden] As we heard a moment or two ago, we have all been delighted by the news that Jaguar Land Rover is to car today than it did 20 years ago. It is therefore not locate its new engine plant on the boundary of surprising that the number of people employed in these Wolverhampton in the constituency of the hon. Member activities has declined. for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson). That It is good that this debate is focused on the future of investment of more than £300 million will mean more manufacturing. We should avoid the rear-view mirror than 1,700 new manufacturing jobs directly, but many stuff that sometimes characterises these debates if we more than that in the supply chain and indirectly in the can. Any honest debate about the future of manufacturing wider economy. In a sense, Jaguar Land Rover is a has to begin by acknowledging the power and reach of microcosm of the story of globalisation. Its Indian globalisation and the power of technology, rather than owner, the Tata group, is investing heavily in new models pressing the rewind button or taking us down a nostalgic that are being sold in a number of new markets, which tour of the past. are growing because there is a growing middle class keen to buy high-quality, prestige vehicles. That is also Tony Cunningham: There is a company in my why it is hiring more workers in the constituency of the constituency called New Balance, which is the only hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt). running shoe manufacturer in the United Kingdom. It I use those few examples to illustrate that although sells its running shoes to China. It does that because of there has been decline and closure over the years—in the quality of the product. Is that not the way to my constituency we saw more than our fair share, with compete? the closures of Stewarts and Lloyds, Sankey’s and many others some years ago—the story of manufacturing in Mr McFadden: That is a good example. I know that the UK is not always one of decline and loss. We need my hon. Friend is a keen runner. In my more conscientious to believe more in what we still make, and resolve to days, I have also done some running. New Balance is an value more the activity of making things. In a short excellent product. He shows that globalisation is a debate such as this, there is not much time to discuss the two-way street, not a one-way street. detailed policy prescriptions that might make that happen, The emphasis on the past that sometimes characterises but I should like to mention a few things that we could these debates can lead to an over-pessimistic discussion do to support manufacturing more. about decline and loss. Let us be honest: we make less First, as I have said, we can challenge the culture of than we used to, as is clearly shown by the figures. decline and loss. As a country, we should resolve to be However, I also believe that we make more than we the best place in the world for engineering. That might think and more than we sometimes give ourselves credit not mean that we are the biggest manufacturing economy for. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for in the world, but we should resolve to be the best place Workington (Tony Cunningham) shows that and there for it. That resolve should be shared by Government, are other examples. We still make about 1.5 million cars our universities and our top companies, and it should a year, most of them for export. We have heard news fire the imagination of the next generation about the today that Toyota has again chosen the UK as the base huge benefits that creativity, innovation and making for a new model, which I understand will create up to things can bring. 1,500 jobs. We also have a hugely successful pharmaceutical As we heard a few minutes ago, one positive step in industry with a strong balance of trade surplus. that direction is the Queen Elizabeth prize for engineering, Although we had a debate earlier about British aerospace which has just been announced and which the Royal that centred on the loss of jobs, that sector as a whole is Academy of Engineering will oversee. The Royal Academy strong and is an important earner for us. Only this is right to emphasise that the benefits of engineering go week, Goodrich, a company in the constituency of my way beyond pure manufacturing and contribute far hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North more than we think to our wider economy. I personally East (Emma Reynolds), won a contract to maintain believe that the boundaries between a rigid manufacturing landing gear systems for the United States air force. sector and services are becoming outdated. Rolls-Royce, That company has already taken on 200 people this for example, talks about “manu-services” and about year, and it aims to keep hiring in the period to come. earning as much from maintaining and servicing products as from just making and delivering them. We need to do Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I thank my right something about the national resolve on manufacturing. hon. Friend for giving way and the hon. Member for Secondly, we have to get tax policy right. I want to Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) for securing heed the advice of my neighbour, my hon. Friend the the debate. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), not to May I bring the House’s attention to another success be too partisan, but I say gently that I cannot see how story, which is in my constituency? Chamberlin and Hill cutting investment allowances helps the Government’s has actually won contracts back from China for making stated aim of rebalancing the economy, at a time when castings for turbo-charged engines. the life cycle of products is getting shorter. It is a £3 billion-a-year hit on manufacturing, to fund a Mr McFadden: My hon. Friend makes a very good corporation tax cut for banks and other businesses that point. Chamberlin and Hill is a company that I know do not always invest. It seems to me to run completely well and a fine example of what the Germans would call counter to Government rhetoric about supporting a mittelstand—a medium-sized company—that is doing manufacturing. The Government should be making it very well. What is its slogan? It is “Difficult things, done easier for manufacturing companies to take investment well”, I think, and it does indeed do them extremely decisions, not more expensive as that change to the tax well. system does. 523 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 524

Thirdly, we need an active industrial policy. We British business, including in manufacturing. We should have become too defensive of the accusation that the take pride in the fact that people still get those qualifications, Government should not pick winners. There is nothing which are valued and recognised. Indeed, part of the wrong with a nation looking at the changes that are to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills come—be they for a low-carbon economy or a more commitment is to continue to recognise those qualifications. digitally connected world—and resolving that the UK must have the capacity to make the most of them. The Gordon Birtwistle: I am grateful to the Minister for Government are a big market player. That should be a that assurance and I hope that that continues. priority not only for the Department for Business, When I started in manufacturing some 53 years ago, Innovation and Skills, but for the Ministry of Defence, manufacturing was 40% of the country’s gross domestic the Department of Health, the Department for Education product and a balance of payments surplus was delivered and many other Departments. All should think about every month. What on earth would the Chancellor their budgets and activities in terms of industry policy, think of having a constant balance of payments surplus but far too often, they do not do so. The Department now rather than the negative position we have? As for Business, Innovation and Skills should not be the manufacturing was so big, lots of apprenticeships were only bit of the Government that thinks about business available through local companies that delivered the and industry—thinking about business must be done products that the country needed. The unemployment far more broadly across the board. rate for young people was very low. When I left school, I Finally, we ought to rethink our definition of making applied for many apprenticeships throughout Lancashire. things. It is a touch old-fashioned in the digital age to Most young people with whom I went to school achieved think of making things only as making things that we an apprenticeship in some industry or other. The vast can see or touch. Our country is a world leader in majority of people in those days did not go to university; creative industries. The truth is that change has meant many people would have liked to have gone, but they that people who might have become engineers or involved could not, so they spent their time being apprentices in manufacturing in the past are now making other and learning skills in the old-fashioned way by making things. Our TV formats are exported around the world; things and having a trade. our football teams are watched around the world; the I do not want to make this political, but I have to computer games that are developed and made in the point out that under the last Labour Government, UK are played around the world; and our musicians are manufacturing fell from 22% to 11%. Even Mrs Thatcher listened to around the world. Everyone involved in did not achieve such a drop—she only managed to get it those activities is also involved in making things, so our from 25% to 21%. Manufacturing has a number of definitions have fallen behind the reality of the modern variables to overcome. They include how the industry is economy and what we as a nation are good at. Times perceived by young people, the lack of skills, and the have changed and creativity has been bent to new ends. lack of investment and of research and development. If we think about making things in that broader One of the biggest challenges to manufacturers in my sense, we will throw into sharp relief the sense of loss constituency is finding enough skilled workers to carry and decline that can characterise such debates. My plea out the incredibly technical jobs that are available. is therefore to think about making things in the broader More must be done to change the image of industry to sense. What we need in future is both belief and action make it attractive to young people. I know that those to back that belief. If we have those, we can make much who undertake skilled apprenticeships will end up with more things in that broader sense in times to come. great jobs working on interesting projects, earning decent salaries and probably with a job for life. 3.31 pm A lot of damage has been done over the past 10 years to the image of manufacturing and vocational courses. Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I congratulate my A priority for the Government and for our successful colleagues who called for this debate and thank the and well-known manufacturers is changing the perception Backbench Business Committee for accepting and giving of manufacturing, especially among the young. We us a lengthy amount of time for it at short notice. have become a country relying on a fragile financial The future of manufacturing products is inextricably sector and on the service industries. If young people linked to the future of manufacturing growth and wealth. were asked what they thought manufacturing was, they If we have a strong manufacturing sector, we will have a would probably respond that it is dirty and grimy. That strong economy that will create growth and prosperity is not the case. We need to show young people that there for the country. is more to manufacturing—that it is about maths and I have a personal interest in manufacturing. I left science, about design and innovation, about robots and school at 15—I did not pass my 11-plus or get any computers. Manufacturing and technology in the food GCSEs—and went to be a craft apprentice at a local industry, for example, are phenomenal. There are so company in Accrington that manufactured textile many different areas in the manufacturing sector and machinery. That was an enthralling event. I had to go to they are all innovative and exciting sectors to work in. night school three nights a week until I was 25, where I Controlling the supply side of our skills deficit is but secured two HNCs. Unfortunately, that does not happen part of the problem. As important is ensuring that both any more, but young people go into manufacturing and new entrants and existing employees in manufacturing get other types of education. are sufficiently upskilled to meet the demands of British employers. The preparation work needs to begin in Mr Willetts: I should like to assure the hon. Gentleman schools. We know, for example, that pupils who take that I meet young people who are doing HNCs and three separate science subjects at GCSE are more likely HNDs at their local colleges to be trained to work in to study science, technology, engineering and maths 525 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 526

[Gordon Birtwistle] Department to work more with financial institutions on initiatives to support exporters, particularly small businesses, later in their educational careers. If we can tackle the many of which would love to export but find it difficult. problem at source, and improve the rigour of the subjects For example, What More, an SME in my constituency and the number of pupils studying them, it will have a that makes plastic buckets, washing-up bowls and lunch cumulative impact on the calibre of graduates entering boxes that are sold widely in Tesco, is taking on the the job market. Chinese. The Chinese used to control that market but the company now exports to 38 countries, including Lorely Burt: Does my hon. Friend agree that a great China, and would like to export further afield. What way to get youngsters more excited and involved is to More tells me that with an export credit guarantee it have closer collaboration between employers and schools, could export to another 25 countries. It employs 160 people so that children can see what it is they aspire to do, and and has invested £16 million over the past few years. therefore choose to take the subjects to which he refers? It is critical that the Government, as a big purchaser of manufactured goods, buy British-made goods. I was Gordon Birtwistle: I totally agree with my hon. Friend extremely disappointed by the decision on the Thameslink and I will come on to an initiative in my constituency contract. I do not know how it happened. I was not a related to that suggestion. Member of Parliament during the consultation and In my constituency we have Burnley college, a joint quotation on the Thameslink trains but I was concerned FE-HE campus working with local firms to train highly that the contract was placed with Germany. I do not skilled youngsters to be ready for the world of work. We understand the European rules but I was extremely are also getting a university technical college that will concerned. Importing trains when we make our own bring young people into the industrial life. Burnley does not stack up. I am pretty sure that the Germans college has made huge leaps in changing the perception and the French do not import their trains. They seem to of manufacturing locally among young people, and if find a way around these rules to ensure that the same the model the college uses were introduced across the does not happen there. Furthermore, a £1 billion order UK, it would go a huge way towards really changing the for Chinook helicopters was sent direct to Boeing despite perception of manufacturing at a national level. More there being a helicopter company in this country with a schools and colleges need to start joining up with local licence to build Chinooks. That would have saved us businesses to provide youngsters with the knowledge £500 million on our balance of payments. and experience that will help them in the world of work. I have a couple of suggestions for the Minister. First, Too many children do not have any experience of working, we should return the capital allowances scheme to enable or of the personal and other skills required. I will companies to invest and get the capital allowances on continue to encourage the Government to introduce the new equipment that they buy. There would be a impartial careers advice from the age of 11. Indeed, we massive investment in new plant and investment if the should start careers advice long before young people go capital allowances were returned. Secondly, as my right to secondary school. hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said, tax rebates on research and development Graham Evans: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the should be increased in line with the rest of the world Manufacturing Institute’s Make It campaign, which is and with what is needed in this country. specifically designed to enable young people in what used to be year 3—now year 9, I think—to experience as they take their options the delights of working in the 3.44 pm manufacturing industry? Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): My constituency borders that of my right hon. Friend the Gordon Birtwistle: Yes, I am aware of that, and it is a Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), great thing. I encourage the Government to encourage so if my remarks echo his it is because of our shared such things, and we should also give careers advice to experience of black country manufacturing and the young people at 11. challenges that it faces. My constituency, consisting of Manufacturing must cease being perceived as a career Oldbury, Tipton and Wednesbury, was at the heart of avenue for low achievers, and the Government must British metal-bashing for centuries. When Britain was work harder to ensure that perception and reality are the workshop of the world, the black country was the closely matched. The culture in our schools must change, centre of that. It has a proud manufacturing tradition, and the Government can help with that. There is so and I am equally proud to say that, even given the hard much emphasis on how many children can get to Oxbridge times that the industry has gone through, there are still but there is never a fanfare about how many get on to more foundries in my constituency than in any other in high-skilled training programmes in the manufacturing the country.The number of people employed in traditional industry, such as those with Rolls-Royce, BAE Systems manufacturing, while nothing like what it was, is still or Aircelle in my constituency. Business must recognise higher than in most areas of the country. My constituency that a new role is emerging, and UK manufacturing is thus second to none in having an interest in the must ensure that it sells its career and employment particular theme of this debate. possibilities to young people. I know that many people, particularly within the black Trade finance also plays a huge role in the export country business community, welcome the Government’s cycle, but small and medium-sized enterprises often rhetoric on boosting manufacturing, rebalancing the find raising the finance overly complex because of the economy and securing export-led growth. I certainly myriad requirements on both financial institutions and share both the Government’s and the local business Government agencies. The manufacturing industry in community’s enthusiasm for all of those. I think, however, Burnley would like the Export Credits Guarantee that we need to measure this with a touch of realism. 527 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 528

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I South East made it clear that although we might want serve on the Science and Technology Committee and we to extol the virtues of manufacturing, we must not do recently examined how the Germans fund their new that to the detriment of the contribution made by other technology infrastructure. They have the Fraunhofer sectors of the economy, particularly our creative industries, institutes, which have been running for more than 100 years. which are world leaders and provide a significant proportion We are now trying to emulate that through the Turing of our national output and a large number of employees. centres. German manufacturing is good, but ours could This applies to our service industries as well. Although be equally good, if not better. manufacturing might have declined relatively, that is partly because we have an expertise in the service industries that is recognised throughout the world and provides Mr Bailey: That issue was recognised by the previous potentially exportable market opportunities. Government, and measures were being put in place to replicate that approach in the context of the British Manufacturing has a crucially strategic role. Although industrial scene. The current Government are, to their it provides something in the region of only 11% of credit, taking that up. national output, it provides nearly 50% of our exports. If we are to export our way out of recession, the service Bank lending is a hugely significant issue for small industries might play a significant part, but we cannot and medium-sized enterprises in my constituency and overlook the potential of manufacturing industry. It nationally. The Merlin targets are not being met. That, contributes something like 74% of research and combined with low consumer confidence and low business development. The more R and D there is, the more expansion expectations on the basis of the domestic competitive we become: the two are crucially linked. market, means that companies are not applying for loans because they do not feel positive about future We must recognise that without having more R and market opportunities and because they are wary of the D and without providing a higher value-added banks making their credit lines even more difficult than manufacturing base, we might not be able to generate they already are. That is having a stultifying effect on the levels of employment that we have had historically the ability of small businesses to expand. in manufacturing. We might well pursue policies to help businesses expand manufacturing as a proportion of Quantitative easing in order to address that issue our national output, but that might not necessarily may, indeed, keep interest rates low, but I have yet to result in a huge increase in the number of people meet a bank that knows how that will help SMEs employed because as we become more competitive and directly, and I have yet to meet a business that knows productive, we might be using fewer and fewer people to how it would make any difference to its relationship achieve it. That can sometimes blur the distinction with its local bank. Although lower interest rates may between manufacturing employment and service be welcome in general, that will not necessarily feed employment—hence the reference of my right hon. through to more investment into small businesses. I am Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East to concerned that the effect low interest rates are having on “manu-services”. Increasingly, as our high value-added pension fund incomes could lead to some manufacturing manufacturers export abroad, they follow it up with businesses having to pay more into their pension funds, service contracts, which provide a lot of employment thereby diverting money from other areas in order to for people who are technically in a half-way house sustain their pension levels. This could be a counter- between servicing and manufacturing. productive step, therefore. There is now a lack of provision in the crucial area of small grants and loans for small businesses that want to Mr Sheerman: I know that my hon. Friend, as Chairman expand to take the market opportunities that will be of the Select Committee, has a great deal of knowledge available to them. The regional development agencies on this subject. I wonder, however, whether we are will not be reintroduced—that is a debate for another avoiding the fact that Germany is also good at services day—but they did provide small loans to businesses and at design and many other things, yet it still has a that wanted to expand. Those loans are gone now, and manufacturing base that is twice as big as ours. That is they are not being replaced by the banks. The regional why I keep coming back to “It’s Germany, isn’t it?” that growth fund is not yet delivering for small businesses. If we need to copy. we are to expand the capacity of manufacturing SMEs in the time that they have available to make an impact Mr Bailey: My hon. Friend is quite right—for a on employment, that vacuum needs to be filled. Either whole range of reasons that, unfortunately, time constraints local enterprise partnerships must be given more powers prevent me from developing. Germany has a far stronger or the RGF needs quicker and more localised means of manufacturing base than we do, and a much stronger distributing money. manufacturing culture throughout the country. I would like to discourse at length on that, but time constraints Guy Opperman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? prevent me from doing so. Notwithstanding the German experience, it is generally recognised that our expertise in some of the service Mr Bailey: No; I am sorry, but I am running out of industries may well give us greater export opportunities time. to countries such as China. Because of Germany’s I reiterate the points made about research and expertise in manufacturing, it has done very well in development tax credits and capital allowances—they what we might term the first wave of exports to China, might go some way to dealing with that problem. As but we may do better now because of our superiority in they have been mentioned, I will not repeat the discussion some service industries. of the issue. 529 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 530

[Mr Bailey] Westminster is being visited today by the leader of my local district council, who also has a background in The second issue to address is skills. As has been said, manufacturing industry. Perhaps it would not hurt too Tata has invested £300 million in Jaguar Land Rover in much if more Members of Parliament had a background a site to the north of Wolverhampton, with enormous or personal experience in manufacturing, engineering employment potential locally. The concern within the or industry itself. industry is that the extended supply chains of small and If we do not secure both a rebalancing of our economy medium-sized enterprises that could service JLR may towards manufacturing and growth in the sector, the have a shortage of skilled apprentices, and I have already UK will be very much the weaker, not least in my mentioned the potential need for capital investment to constituency, which is home to names such as Ford. improve the capacity to meet the demand from JLR. I Things have changed very much over time. My area has have no doubt that JLR will attract all the people it one major manufacturing works; the reason why we no needs, because it is a high-paying iconic company that is longer have soot on our food is because Flavel, which very attractive to everybody. It will be the SMEs in the won an award at the Great Exhibition, managed to area that will need to recruit, and we need to expand change that by an innovative process and, to this day, our vocational skills base to ensure that that happens. the factory is still producing cookers in my constituency. The Government have rightly concentrated on As the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South apprenticeships. However, there is emerging a picture of East (Mr McFadden) said, we need to look forward. apprenticeship provision that will not necessarily address What does a prosperous manufacturing sector need? It that need. First, a high proportion of the new apprentices needs a large skills base, a strong communications network, are over 24, and there is considerable concern that these a focus on exports and the opening up of new markets. are just Train to Gain people rebadged. There is nothing There has been progress on the first point. In Warwick wrong with Train to Gain, because it has an important and Leamington, we have 210 additional apprenticeships role to play, but it will not necessarily meet the skills compared with last year. Great thanks must go to need that it is directed at. Secondly, there is increasing places such as Warwickshire college for managing to evidence of private providers coming in with short-term secure that. courses, which do not meet the historically longer-term need for training in a particular industry to meet capacity. Young people need to be encouraged to make a I believe that the black country local enterprise partnership positive choice to take up careers in manufacturing. As is examining the issue to try to scope out the skills the hon. Member for Huddersfield said, if that is to provision that will be needed and ensure that it is happen, design and technology must play a much greater provided. That LEP will be able to its job far more part in our schools. We need to build on it through our effectively if the Government were prepared to back entire education system. We cannot just wait until young their localism agenda by providing it with the resources people are 16 before they begin thinking about careers to assess the skills need and to deliver on it locally. in the sector—it should thread right through our education system. Several hon. Members rose— We cannot afford to fall behind other countries in this vital area. We should be under no illusion: competitors Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I like China and India will be doing more, not less, to am keen to make sure that every Member who has educate their young people in those subjects. The national indicated a wish to speak in this debate— curriculum is under review and I hope that the Department for Education will consider the importance of design Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con) rose— and technology for the future of our economy and work with organisations such as the Design and Technology Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Yo u m ay Association to ensure that D and T remains at the heart sit down, Mr White, as I will not forget you and you do of the curriculum. need to know this before you start speaking. I am going I believe that if we are to see long-term progress for to change the time limit, because if we have 10-minute manufacturing, we need the Government to be at one speeches, we will not get everybody in. I am therefore with the sector as a whole. Given the importance of reducing the time limit to eight minutes per Back Bencher manufacturing to our economic future, it makes sense from you onwards, Mr White. However, you have the that, as has been mentioned, the Government should great joy of being called next, so the Floor is yours. create a dedicated Minister for manufacturing and I would support the creation of such a Minister. 3.57 pm Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): Thank Mr Sheerman: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if you very much for that warning, Madam Deputy Speaker. that Minister for manufacturing was linked to a clear long-term strategy for manufacturing, that would be May I, too, start by thanking the Backbench Business even better? Committee for securing time for this important debate? As co-chair of the Associate Parliamentary Manufacturing Group, alongside my friend the hon. Member for Chris White: I very much agree. A Minister and a Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), I have a particular interest strategy could go hand in hand. in this area of policy. I was pleased to hear from earlier We need a strategic vision for manufacturing, with speakers who were able to bring their own experience to measurable targets of success so that we can see how this debate, for example, my hon. Friend the Member our efforts at rebalancing our economy make headway for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and the hon. Member for and whether more needs to be done to help the sector. Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). I am also pleased that A Minister for manufacturing, tasked with creating a 531 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 532 cross-departmental manufacturing strategy with targets What are the key figures? Defence spending has been and measurement tools to plot success or failure, would cut, meaning we have £2.63 billion less to spend on our be a good start. military over a five-year period. This leaves 7,000 fewer The Government, for example, could make it their goal members of our armed forces needing armour, four to boost manufacturing to 15% of our GDP by 2015. This fewer frigates to equip and 40% fewer Challenger tanks “15 by 15” target would send a powerful signal and to arm. As a result, we cannot afford to sustain our boost confidence in the manufacturing sector as a whole. domestic capability to produce the kit we need. Last The mere creation of a Minister and a strategy will not bring year’s strategic defence and security review was criticised about growth and jobs, but it will signal the Government’s by the Select Committees on Defence and on Public intent, give manufacturers a voice in the decisions Administration. It was seen as a tug of war between the on economic policy, better co-ordinate Government Ministry of Defence and the Treasury. manufacturing policy and ensure that manufacturing is Cost-effectiveness is important. Initially it was hoped properly considered across all Departments. that the decision to change the type of aircraft flown from The UK is now the ninth biggest manufacturer in the the new aircraft carriers would save money. However, it world, unfortunately down two places on the previous has resulted in a multi-billion pound refit for the carriers year. We need to recognise that although we need to because catapult and trap technology have to be added. promote high-tech manufacturing we cannot ignore the That type of indecision can rapidly increase costs for rest of the industry. To quote a recent report, manufacturers and, ultimately, for taxpayers. It also means “‘low-tech’ does not mean ‘low-value’”. that we will not have carrier capability until 2020 and A Minister with responsibility for all manufacturing that the carriers will not be fully operational until 2030. could ensure that it was not ignored and that we had a The best way to ensure value for money in procurement strategy in place that benefited all manufacturers. is by ensuring there is genuine competition in the tendering If we are to remain at the forefront of manufacturing process. One way in which the MOD has discouraged globally, businesses need to be able to access the funds competition is by gold-plating its procurement plans. that they need to compete and grow. I therefore also Yes, our soldiers should have the best equipment, but support the creation of a bank for industry, similar, that can lead to delays and leave our soldiers without perhaps, to the green investment bank. We should not the kit they need for a very long time. Competition is be content to allow Britain to slip down the league any key in achieving value for money in defence manufacturing. further and we should make it our goal to climb back to Competitive tendering has been the Government’s aim, the top of the table. but National Audit Office figures show that fewer than 20% of the current major projects nearing their service 4.4 pm date were awarded through genuine competition. Some 40% of contracts, representing £8.7 billion a year—these Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): All too often, the are big numbers—have been awarded by single-source issue of defence management is sidelined, so it is good procurement, under which the MOD invites only one that we discussed BAE Systems earlier. I see this debate firm to tender. There is a danger that by excluding firms as an opportunity to emphasise the importance of from the tendering process we are reducing our skills defence manufacturing and procurement, which a colleague base and our capacity to produce certain equipment in mentioned earlier. the long term as firms build up monopoly status. I have been lucky enough to be a member of the Public In conclusion, the best way for us to maintain domestic Accounts Committee for the past 18 months, during manufacturing capability is to have a number of firms which time we have focused partly on questioning top with the ability to produce the equipment we need. That Ministry of Defence officials, making defence one of would protect more jobs throughout the industry, enable our Committee’s themes and, crucially, visiting our us to achieve better value for money and provide an country’s manufacturing base by going to Govan in incentive for firms to produce good-quality equipment Glasgow and Rosyth in Edinburgh where our new on time. The point about being on time is particularly Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers are being built. important. In future, both Government and industry In doing that work, we have considered a number of must work to ensure that we have sustainability in our instances in which the MOD has not secured value for domestic defence manufacturing industry. Then we will money in procurement. I raise those instances today better protect and arm our brave servicemen and women. because I think they undermine our manufacturing capability and make the work of our armed forces much more dangerous. 4.9 pm As a country, our priority should be to provide our Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I am delighted to troops with the equipment they need for the best possible contribute to the debate and I pay tribute to the hon. value for money. Having a sustainable skills base is Members who helped to secure it. Some very interesting vital for that. In Britain, we have a thriving defence points have been made. I have already spoken to my manufacturing industry, as I saw for myself at this hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) year’s Defence and Security Equipment International about individuals’ being able to set up their own bank, exhibition. We have skilled engineers and fantastic research and I know that we have constituents who share the and development skills. Under the previous Labour desire to diversify lending to small and medium-sized Government, firms such as BAE had the opportunity to enterprises in this country. The debate has already been invest as the defence budget increased by 10% in real very productive. terms. The defence industry provides valuable exports for our country, as well as important skilled jobs. Having In my maiden speech, I said: the latest technology can also be valuable as it gives our “I am proud to represent a seat with a higher proportion of the troops an edge on the battlefield. work force employed in manufacturing that than in any other 533 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 534

[Andrew Stephenson] there are some areas where I believe that Ministers could perhaps go further, a crucial one being support constituency in England, and I am delighted that manufacturing for the aerospace sector. I am delighted to have just is back on the national agenda.”—[Official Report, 17 June 2010; been elected as treasurer of the new all-party parliamentary Vol. 511, c. 1108.] group on aerospace. Aerospace is crucial to Pendle’s In the short time that I have today, I should like to manufacturing base. The UK aerospace industry is the consider what has been achieved in the 17 months since second largest in the world. It is worth more than I made that speech and what more can be done to £23 billion and employs thousands of people in Pendle support manufacturers, particularly in Pendle and east in highly skilled jobs, working for firms such as Rolls-Royce, Lancashire. Euravia or Weston EU. That sector of the economy is A couple of weeks ago, I was delighted to attend the vital to Pendle and growing in terms of orders and jobs, Lancashire Telegraph business awards. It was a night but the long-term future of the aerospace industry in that helped to highlight the best of manufacturing and the UK cannot be secured without a long-term commitment engineering in east Lancashire, when the prestigious to research and development. Ministers are already business of the year award passed from one Barrowford- working closely with trade organisations such as ADS based company, ACDC Lighting, to another, Merc on the issue. I hope that the Minister will propose Engineering, both of which are located in my constituency. specific policies to help the aerospace sector. I have visited those companies, which are both tremendous Another issue that I should like to discuss is empty examples of fast-growing smaller firms that are constantly property rate relief—a problem that, of course, stems innovating, winning new orders and expanding their from the previous Government’s reforms. It has been operations. raised with me time and again by manufacturers in my In Pendle, those companies are not the exception area. John Getty, the managing director of PDS Engineering to an otherwise gloomy manufacturing picture. There are and the president of the East Lancashire chamber of other businesses, such as Protec in Nelson, which has just commerce, recently singled this out as the biggest concern installed all the fire alarm systems for the Olympic games to many local businessmen. In east Lancashire, industrial stadium and venues; Hope Technology in Barnoldswick, unit after industrial unit has been pulled down because which produces top-of-the-range components for bikes owners simply cannot afford the rates on old mills and used by the best cyclists; and Kirk Environmental in buildings. The effect, when some of the small and Nelson, which is a leader in green technology. I have medium-sized enterprises that I mentioned look to expand, enjoyed visiting all those local manufacturers, as such is that there will be nowhere left for them to do so. I businesses drive the local economy and will get the have written to Ministers on the issue many times. I British economy out of the state it is currently in. appreciate that the Government have prioritised rate As Pendle’s MP,my No. 1 priority is jobs and supporting relief for small businesses for the time being, and that our local manufacturers. As someone who ran my own benefits more than 1,000 small businesses in a constituency small business until I was elected to the House, I understand such as mine. However, on behalf of the east Lancashire the pressures that companies are under in these tough manufacturing community, I ask that the issue of empty economic times. Last autumn, the Government launched property rates be looked at again in the near future. the £1.4 billion regional growth fund, which has directed In conclusion, with the exception of the two key investment towards many manufacturers in Lancashire issues that I mentioned, the Government have, over the and the north of England. Particularly important to past 18 months, made huge progress in supporting Pendle is the £8.8 million to reopen the Todmorden manufacturing, through their approach to investment curve—a transport improvement that residents of east in infrastructure, grant funding, taxation policy, skills Lancashire have been calling for for more than 40 years. and apprenticeships. Solid foundations for our economic The Government have also agreed to fund the Regenerate recovery are being laid. Pennine Lancashire bid for an additional £7.5 million in business support. Its Accelerating Business Growth in 4.15 pm Lancashire scheme is designed to meet the needs of Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): I congratulate local manufacturing SMEs by offering them capital and thank the hon. Members for Hexham (Guy investment for expansion projects, including premises, Opperman), for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White), plant and machinery. There was a successful bid from and for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) and my hon. Friend North West Aerospace Alliance, which I shall meet the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) for securing again in a few weeks’ time. the debate. I have been greatly encouraged by the quality Those regional growth fund announcements came of the debate and the consensus across the Chamber. It just two weeks after the Government said that they gives me some hope that manufacturing does have a would back the bid from the Visions Learning Trust to future after all. open a new £18 million university technical college in This country has a wonderful manufacturing heritage, east Lancashire—a huge investment in ensuring that our and the constituency that I represent in Derby was the young people have the skills that employers are looking cradle of the industrial revolution. It is home to the for. That is great news on top of new figures showing world’s first factory, and to Rolls-Royce and Bombardier— that 810 people have taken up apprenticeships in Pendle the railway industry has a great heritage there. Just in the past 12 months—a 70% increase on the number outside the city there is Toyota, which is one of the in the last academic year and a bigger proportional increase biggest, if not the biggest, car manufacturer in the UK than in either the north-west or the rest of England. today. We have a great manufacturing base, a great All this comes on top of policies such as cutting heritage, and a great reputation in this country, and corporation tax and red tape for manufacturers, promoting particularly in Derby, for high-tech manufacturing skills. exports and getting the banks to lend more money, but Promoting manufacturing as an occupation of first 535 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 536 choice for our young people is key. We need to do more Hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber, myself to encourage young people with skills to go into included, have mentioned globalisation. Globalisation manufacturing rather than the service sector or finance, can be a threat or, as I prefer to see it, an opportunity. as they have done. We need to seize the opportunities presented by growing I was encouraged by the Prime Minister’s commitment markets in China, India, Brazil and other parts of the to rebalancing the economy in favour of manufacturing world. Although we should not seek to compete on low industry, and was particularly pleased when he brought wages, we should seek to be ahead of the game when it his Cabinet to Derby to emphasise that commitment, comes to the high-tech skills that this country has in but there was a rebalancing of the economy in the abundance. We must nurture those skills and invest in 1980s. The Government of the day turned their back on them through research and development and investment manufacturing to some extent and used financial services— in education, by encouraging young people to go into the big bang in the City—as an alternative engine of manufacturing and by looking not only at the opportunities economic growth. We were fixated on the financial available through support for our the railways, aerospace services industry for far too long, and when the crash and other existing industries, but at climate change as came we were over-exposed as a consequence. another opportunity. Engineering skills could be the salvation for tackling climate change and creating huge The Government have recognised, perhaps rather new employment opportunities in our country through belatedly, the importance of manufacturing, and it is geo-engineering solutions, which are being spearheaded important that they demonstrate their commitment to by the Institution of Mechanical Engineers. it. I reiterate a good point made by the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), who is the new treasurer I am fairly optimistic and delighted at the cross-party of the all-party group on aerospace—I am its newly support we have seen today. I hope that Government elected secretary, so we are certainly singing from the Members will use their influence to persuade the same hymn-sheet on that issue—about research and Government to invest in research and development and development. As the autumn statement approaches, it is reconsider their decision on the Thameslink rolling absolutely key that the Chancellor seizes the opportunity stock programme. to demonstrate the Government’s commitment to manufacturing and aerospace. 4.23 pm The UK is the second biggest aerospace centre in the world. If we are to retain that position, the Government Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I am delighted to participate need to demonstrate their commitment to aerospace in this extremely important debate and thank the hon. through investment in, and support for, research and Members and colleagues who secured it. I also thank development. Although Rolls-Royce has its roots in my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) Derby and is the city’s largest employer—indeed, in the for his fine opening speech. past 12 months it has recruited 900 additional members The constituency of Erewash, which I have the honour of staff, which is extremely welcome news—it is, in the of representing, is in the heart of the east midlands end, a global company, and has factories in all four manufacturing base. The east midlands has the highest corners of the world. We must not be complacent, and I employment level in manufacturing in the United Kingdom. reiterate the point made by the hon. Member for Pendle We have been manufacturing products in Erewash for on research and development. over 300 years. It is the base for one in five of the 2,400 The other thing the Government must get right is firms in my constituency. To put it another way, 30% of procurement. I cannot contribute to a debate such as the jobs in Erewash rely on the manufacturing sector. this without mentioning the Government’s decision to The range of products is also diverse, and it has appoint a German company as the preferred bidder to developed as the technology has changed over the years. build the Thameslink rolling stock, rather than Bombardier. We have made everything in Erewash, from pencils to It is not too late to revisit the decision, as they are only lace and drainage covers to railway carriages—the list at the preferred bidder stage and, despite Minsters’ goes on. Indeed, the town’s contribution to manufacturing protestations to the contrary, the invitation to tender has continued in peacetime and wartime. At the Stanton documentation gives the Secretary of State the opportunity Gate works, 873,500 bomb casings were produced during to stop the process and retender. There is no reason why world war two, and my late grandfather, who grew up the retendering process would take two to three years, and worked in nearby Nottingham, was an engineer on as he has suggested, because the procurement of new the local railways all his life and one of the many trains before and after privatisation was carried out in engineers asked to help in factories throughout the war, just six months. producing, making and helping us to win world war I urge the Government to reconsider their decision, two. even at this late stage, because although smaller contracts One industry with a proud legacy in Erewash, especially will hopefully come Bombardier’s way, such as those for in the town of Long Eaton, is furniture making. In Southern trains and the eVoyager carriages, we could recent years, there has been a resurgence in the trend for still lose the ability to design trains in Derby, and if we Union Jack-themed home accessories and furniture, lose that we lose the ability to design trains in the and I confess that in the Lee household the occasional United Kingdom as a whole. Winning those two smaller Union Jack cushion has appeared from time to time, contracts might put off the day when Bombardier pulls but to me it is a great symbol, because it shows that we out of the UK, but it might not secure the train-building support British products and furniture makers, such industry long into the future. It is absolutely key that as Meadowmead in Long Eaton. I am an active the country that gave the world the railways continues member of the all-party group on the furniture industry, to be able to build the trains that run on British railway and I will continue to do all I can to support the lines. industry. 537 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 538

[Jessica Lee] In conclusion, I particularly welcome one other Government proposal: the “Make it in Great Britain” High-tech engineering and educational suppliers are exhibition, which will take place at the Science Museum also successful. We have companies such as TecQuipment, next year. We need to do all that we can to showcase which provides sophisticated engineering training products what we make in Britain and see what we do best. I will that are then exported to universities around the globe. be doing all that I can to take schoolchildren from my We also have Atlas Composites, whose carbon composites constituency to visit that exhibition. are used by top companies, also around the globe. We are united in the House about improving Being located between Derby and Nottingham, Erewash manufacturing. The Government have made a good is a significant supplier to larger companies such as start, but there is much to do. We must celebrate what Rolls-Royce and Bombardier, and I note the comments we do best, talk up the whole of manufacturing in this of my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew country and build on those successes to create strong Stephenson) and am delighted to hear about the recently foundations for the future. formed all-party group on aerospace. If an application form is sent to me, I shall happily join that group, as it is 4.30 pm important. Through the Industry and Parliament Trust, several The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David MPs recently visited Rolls-Royce. It is an extraordinary Willetts): It gives me great pleasure to respond to the site, and I encourage all Members to go. The hon. debate. I congratulate the hon. Members who tabled Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), who is seated on and secured the debate: my hon. Friend the Member for the Opposition Front Bench, also attended, and that Hexham (Guy Opperman) who began with an excellent day everybody was completely mesmerised and impressed speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and by the company’s workmanship, expertise and Leamington (Chris White) and the hon. Members for groundbreaking work. Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) and for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). Indeed, Rolls-Royce is responsible for 2% of the This is a very important debate, and I welcome the nation’s GDP, and through its encouragement of fact there has been very little partisanship. There have apprenticeships and its employment, in particular, of been a lot of shared themes, which I hope to touch on in skilled graduates from around the globe it has created a my remarks. Perhaps the main difference is almost a fantastic working environment. For the overwhelming temperamental one, between the people who take a majority of employees, once they start working for more optimistic view and those who take a more pessimistic Rolls-Royce they simply do not want to work anywhere view. I am certainly with the optimists. We can be proud else, a fact that is reflected in the small number of of the revival in our manufacturing sector that is already people who ever leave. under way. The lace industry has also been important in Erewash, Instead of drawing attention to the overall statistics, and I have spoken about it several times in the House, perhaps I can reflect on the announcements that we but I cannot let this opportunity go by without mentioning have had this week, which tell us what is going on. again Cluny Lace in Ilkeston, the last traditional lace Today, the Prime Minister has been able to welcome manufacturer in the country. That company made part Toyota’s plans to build its new generation family-sized of the lace on the Duchess of Cambridge’s wedding hatchback at its UK factory in Burnaston near Derby dress, and we were honoured and delighted to participate during his visit there. That investment of £100 million in that great day. will secure many jobs. In addition, Airbus has today I agree with the hon. Member for Derby North announced 200 extra engineering jobs at Feltham, and (Chris Williamson) that a debate about this topic could Nestlé has announced a £110 million investment at its not really pass without local MPs mentioning Bombardier. Tutbury plant, which will involve 300 extra jobs. Those Supply-chain firms in Erewash will be particularly affected are today’s announcements. Yesterday, Coca-Cola by the decision, but we are all agreed in the House, and I announced a £50 million investment in a new bottling am pleased that the Government take the view, that we facility at Wakefield and other investments as well. must review the procurement rules that the previous If one considers the build-up of announcements, Government put in place and ensure that we make the there is clearly the sense that a revival is under way in best for this country of the procurement process. our manufacturing industry. It has been very encouraging I think that I am the first woman MP to participate to hear from hon. Members on both sides of the House substantially in the debate, so I should not let this about the strong support that there is for manufacturing. opportunity pass without mentioning women and There is a recognition that the future of our economy encouraging them to go into manufacturing and must include manufacturing, just as our proud history engineering. I have been working with a school in has manufacturing at its heart. Erewash, and we are looking to set up a scheme. We are My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham made an going to have an open day, involving as many schools as excellent opening speech, and I shall briefly respond to possible, to show young women and girls currently at two themes that he touched on, particularly as they school why careers in manufacturing and engineering were picked up by other hon. Members. He called for can be exciting for them—and the wealth of opportunities there to be a Minister for manufacturing. Let me make and interesting careers that they might not have considered. the role of the Minister of State, Department for Business, I was delighted by the Government’s recent Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for announcement of 5,000 new mentors to encourage women Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), clear. Incidentally, entrepreneurs. The scheme should include manufacturing he is not here to respond to the debate because Ministers as well, and I look forward to seeing how it develops. are fanning out across the country today as a result of 539 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 540 all the excellent news on manufacturing. The Prime Mr Willetts: Perhaps such a meeting could be arranged Minister is in one part of the country, my hon. Friend through BIS or the Treasury. Lowering barriers to entry the Member for Hertford and Stortford is elsewhere is one way of ensuring that a market is dynamic, that and, of course, the Secretary of State is somewhere new entrants can come in and that innovation happens, else. and that is as true in banking as it is in the rest of the My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford, economy. My hon. Friend’s suggestion of a meeting is who deals with business and enterprise, has the following very welcome. responsibilities: aerospace, the defence sectors, the We heard a range of excellent speeches. I automotive sector, professional and business services congratulate the hon. Member for Huddersfield on his and the delivery of the advanced manufacturing growth contribution and welcome his support for Huddersfield review. In addition, he is the architect of our next university. Although my hon. Friend the Member for manufacturing summit in Bristol, and he has overall Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) is no longer in his seat, I responsibility for manufacturing and materials. Although pay tribute to the excellent work that he has done in he does not have the word “manufacturing” in his support of Daresbury, which I have been happy to visit ministerial title, he is for all practical purposes our with him. It is a crucial R and D centre for the future Minister for manufacturing. Several Members have asked: where we are committed to strong investment and who is the go-to Minister? He is the go-to Minister for which has enterprise zone status. We heard from the manufacturing and he does an excellent job. Of course, right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East the Secretary of State also has a clear personal commitment (Mr McFadden)— to manufacturing. My view, therefore, is that there is a key Minister in the Government with that responsibility and a Secretary of State with very strong personal Mr Sheerman: The Minister said that we have a commitment to the subject. We are all, as Ministers in Minister for manufacturing; we will have to think about BIS, working on this and trying to contribute in our that, because some of us were not convinced. Two different ways and with our different responsibilities, themes that have come out of the debate—I am sure whether they be for universities, research, science, high that the Minister will get round to them—are the need tech, skills or apprenticeships. for a long-term strategy for manufacturing and the role of Made by Britain. Does he endorse Made by Britain, A second question put by my hon. Friend the Member and does he think that all Members of Parliament for Hexham concerned access to bank finance. That should find a fine design or product in their constituency? subject is raised regularly in the House, as I often notice We are over halfway there, so will he support our going in BIS questions. His particular point, which has been even further? pursued by several Members on both sides of the House, is about whether we can do more to enable new banks, especially new small banks, to set up. One of the key Mr Willetts: The hon. Gentleman says that he is not recommendations in the report by the Independent convinced. I think that if the Minister of State, Department Commission on Banking was that we should look at for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the barriers to entry, which are too high. It should be easier Member for Hertford and Stortford, who has responsibility for new entrants to come in and set up banks, and we for business and enterprise, were here, he might have are now pursuing that recommendation. There has already shed a quiet tear at that, because there he is, doing all been a round table meeting with challenger banks—the this work in the Government and being responsible for banks that want to come in and do more. The Chancellor all these sectors, including manufacturing and delivering himself touched on the subject in a major speech on the the advanced manufacturing growth review. There are subject on 3 October. arguments about the titles that people should have, but Given my responsibilities for research, high tech and the reality is that he does an enormous amount for science, I have been frustrated by the time it has taken to manufacturing. establish Silicon Valley bank, which originates, as its On strategy, if the hon. Gentleman looks at the name implies, in silicon valley and is a specialist in growth review that we published with the Budget, he venture debt that lends to start-up businesses at early will see that there was a range of specific commitments, stages. I was told that it took it a year just to assemble ranging from our advanced manufacturing review to the paperwork that was necessary for the Financial commitments across a host of manufacturing sectors. Services Authority approvals process, and another year We are doing further work on the future of manufacturing for the FSA to consider that paperwork. We in BIS, and through the foresight exercise that my right hon. Friend the Government as a whole, with the Treasury in the the Secretary of State is leading. Manufacturing was a lead, are absolutely persuaded by the argument that we crucial strand of the growth review and there is now a need to think about whether we have ended up with a forward-looking exercise in the foresight framework. system that has barriers to entry that are too high. That I will briefly take the House through some of the is why we are looking to see how we can pursue the things that we are doing to strengthen manufacturing, recommendations of the Independent Commission on which as I said were covered in the Government’s “The Banking. Plan for Growth.”Lowering business taxes is fundamental. That is why we are planning to cut corporation tax year Guy Opperman: Would the Minister be interested in on year. Although some people have criticised our facilitating a meeting with the FSA and the Treasury? decisions on the structure of corporation tax, it is worth While I have no doubt that BIS may be fascinated by remembering that we have legislated to extend the capital the idea of local banks and better business banking, the allowances and short-life assets scheme for plant and Treasury and the FSA seem a little more reluctant to oil machinery from four years to eight years to improve the the wheels, if that is the right term. tax incentives. 541 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 542

[Mr Willetts] that we will not lose process manufacturing in particular to countries such as France and Germany, and of We are also backing innovation. Several Members course to the far east, due to high electricity prices and from both sides of the House have referred to the high energy prices in general? importance of the research and development base. I am particularly pleased that we have been able to draw on Mr Willetts: I can assure my hon. Friend that the the lessons from Germany, which has been referred to Department is very well aware of the particular pressures favourably on both sides of the House, and to learn facing energy-intensive industries, and we are considering from its Fraunhofer institutes. Those were a model for them very carefully. the technology innovation centres that we are setting up with £200 million, even in these tough times. We have already identified some of those centres, notably in Mr Sheerman: The Minister has mentioned tax twice. advanced manufacturing. Indeed, my right hon. Friend When I talk to manufacturers and people in the business the Secretary of State is opening the National Composites sector, they ask why the Government want a blanket cut Centre in Bristol today.That is the new home of world-class in corporation tax rather than something that would innovation in the design and manufacture of composites. actually give a tax break to innovators and entrepreneurs. We have also announced that there will be technology innovation centres in cell therapies and offshore renewables, Mr Willetts: We are also providing specific support and that there are more to come. We are trying to plug for innovators and entrepreneurs, for example by increasing the gap between the pure research in universities and the value of the R and D tax credits. We are doing the commercialisation for which individual companies specific things, but the coalition’s overall philosophy is are responsible—the so-called valley of death. The that if possible, we like to bring down the basic rates of technology innovation centres are one way in which we tax in a simpler tax system. I think that is an admirable can plug that gap. objective. We are also committed to improving our performance I do not want to take up too much time, because I on exporting. That is why we launched the national know that other Members still wish to speak, but I will export challenge, a series of initiatives to help SMEs briefly go through some of the other things that we are take the first steps to break into new markets. Currently, doing, in addition to the lengthy list that I have given—I only one in five companies in Britain export. We want will not repeat it, but I am sure hon. Members agree to increase that to one in four. That means reaching out that it is very impressive. to mittelstand businesses, or SMEs, that have not thought Several hon. Members have mentioned apprenticeships, about exporting. That is why we have set UK Trade & and we can be very proud of the rate of growth in their Investment the target of doubling its client base to number that we have delivered. We now estimate that 50,000 businesses in the next three years. the really extraordinary figure of 440,000 apprenticeships have started in 2011. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I have Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong heard a lot of compliments about UKTI. However, Learning, who we all know has an intense personal when I met my local enterprise partnership earlier this commitment to apprenticeships. We are absolutely week, the concern was expressed that UKTI reacts to committed to their being of high value. Level 3 equivalent requests, perhaps from bigger companies, rather than is a minimum, and in July the Prime Minister announced having a proactive strategy. Do you have any thoughts a £25 million fund to support up to 10,000 advanced on how that might change? and higher-level apprenticeships in companies, particularly SMEs. Mr Willetts: In the absence of Madam Deputy Speaker responding to that challenge, I will. The Prime Minister Of course, we announced only last week a package to urges all of us in his Government to be as proactive as encourage small firms to take on their first apprentice, possible whenever we go abroad, ensuring that we are with an incentive payment of £1,500 for up to 20,000 properly equipped with a sense of the key business apprentices aged 16 to 24. There are still too many opportunities that are relevant to the particular mission regulatory burdens and too many problems of red tape, that we are on. We have asked UKTI to set out what we and we have made it clear that companies do not need call a high-value opportunities programme to identify to add extra health and safety burdens to the basic really big projects around the world where there are framework that all employees should have. We are opportunities for British companies and suppliers to committed to reducing bureaucracy, speeding up processes invest and provide. We are systematically reviewing the and boosting employer engagement in apprenticeships. high-value opportunities provided by large-scale projects We are also committed to supporting and improving around the world, which we believe British companies the image of manufacturing and engineering, which can take advantage of by going out and battling for several Members have mentioned. There is much mythology contracts. We are improving the tax system, we are about manufacturing and engineering. I am sure that backing R and D and innovation and we are committed Members of all parties find when they go around to improving our performance on exports. manufacturing facilities that they are very different from the oily rag image of manufacturing that too David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I have been many people still have. They are sophisticated places in listening carefully to the Minister’s points about how which highly skilled workers work with large amounts his Department is helping parts of the manufacturing of sophisticated equipment. That is why, with my sector. Many manufacturers tell me that the big issue responsibilities as Minister for Universities and Science, for them is differential energy prices. Can he assure the I am very pleased with the increase in the number of House that his Department is on top of that issue, and science, technology, engineering and mathematics graduates. 543 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 544

Another announcement just in the past week is that both. I am proud of the fact that our nation engineered the university of Lancaster is reopening its chemistry the first industrial revolution. We became the workshop department, which was closed in 1999, because of the of the world. By the eve of the first world war, we increase in the number of students coming forward with produced one quarter of the world’s total manufacturing A-levels in the relevant subjects and because the university output. believes that in our new regime, it will be able to attract To go back to my earlier comments, there seems to a more students as it breaks free from the quota controls consensus out there, put forward by the media, that this of the past. We have secured further investment in skills country has somehow lost its grip on manufacturing that are related to the improvement in the image of and closed its factories one by one or sent them over to science and engineering. China. Today’s debate has made a good start in dismissing As has been mentioned, there is also the new Queen such myths, because we still make things. Indeed, as the Elizabeth prize for engineering, launched by the Prime Minister rightly points out, there is much to be optimistic Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of about. Output from British manufacturing reached an the Opposition earlier this month. We thank the range all-time high, even adjusting for inflation, not in 1867 of private sector partners who have contributed to the or 1907, but in 2007. In the decade 1997 to 2007, UK endowment of the prize fund. There will now be a manufacturing achieved a 50% increase in labour £1 million prize, awarded biennially by the Royal Academy productivity, which is the best rate of progress we have of Engineering. seen in our country’s history. Despite that perception out there, we remain the world’s seventh largest Mr Sheerman: The Minister mentioned £1 million manufacturing nation. Our manufacturing is based and we have 1 million young unemployed people. Will predominantly on high value-added activity, including he join my right hon. Friend the Member for South the production and manufacture of toilet rolls—in that Shields (David Miliband) in his call for every young high value-added activity, we are world leaders. unemployed person to be given training and a job? Is In high-technology manufacturing, the UK is second there not room for such an imaginative proposal, which only to the US in the developed world. In some industrial would boost manufacturing and everything else in our sectors, our companies are some of the best anywhere country? on the planet, including in aerospace, which several hon. Members mentioned, and in automotives, oil and Mr Willetts: With both the Work programme and the gas, chemicals, pharmaceuticals and bioscience. increase in the number of apprenticeships, we are discharging our obligation to young people. Of course, As the hon. Member for Hexham will know, the more can always be done and we are absolutely committed north-east region has a world-class, efficient plant in to doing everything necessary to help young people into Nissan, with all the supply chain opportunities that that jobs. provides. As the Minister rightly pointed out, today’s announcement that Toyota will build its new car plant Let me conclude by assuring the House that the in Burnaston is particularly pleasing, especially after Government are committed to encouraging and supporting the disappointments in that city for Bombardier, on British manufacturers. We are determined to create the which my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North environment in which they are free to thrive and compete (Chris Williamson) has been an absolute champion. in a global marketplace. The points that have been made by hon. Members, and particularly by those who We in the north-east have always valued manufacturing. called the debate, are well made. The Government absolutely My constituency of Hartlepool has been particularly understand the importance of skills, innovation and strong from the start of the industrial revolution in the R and D, and the importance of ensuring that the 1840s and 1850s right through to the post-war era. We barriers to bank lending are torn down. All that added have huge potential now in some world-class sectors up makes it clear that we have a strategy for manufacturing, such as offshore wind, nuclear and biotechnology, but which will be at the heart of our agenda for rebalancing we need to grasp the opportunities. Global trends mean the economy. I very much congratulate hon. Members that British manufacturing should have considerable on their interventions, which I welcome. opportunity in the next few years. Rising incomes for households in many developing economies will create billions of extra customers to whom British firms can 4.51 pm sell their goods—a point that was made by my hon. Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): I agree with the Friend. The need to manage global resources more Minister that this has been a good and important efficiently and the move to a low-carbon economy will debate. Manufacturing is not discussed in the House as provide new markets for new and innovative products much as it should be, which is perhaps a reflection of designed by ambitious firms in environments conducive the perception of manufacturing more widely in the to stable and certain R and D and capital investment. country. People could be forgiven for believing that New technologies such as life sciences will revolutionise Britain used to make things but does not any more. I health care and the way in which drugs are developed, therefore congratulate the hon. Members for Hexham patented and brought to market. Despite the difficulties (Guy Opperman), for Warwick and Leamington (Chris and issues that I have with the Minister about the White) and for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), and my science budget, I know that he is a champion of science, hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), and Britain, with its strong science base, should be a on securing this interesting and vital debate. leading global player in such fields. I agree with the Minister that the debate has been Today’s debate has allowed the argument to be somewhat relatively consensual—the House should not worry; I more sophisticated than is normally the case. We often will break that. The debate has been split not by party, see the argument in very blunt terms—we used to do but between optimists and pessimists. I am a bit of manufacturing, but now we only do services, and we 545 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 546

[Mr Iain Wright] I have a particular suggestion to put to the Minister on whether the Government are trying to do anything need to go back to making things. As my right hon. about that. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East I hope that I have mentioned the huge potential and (Mr McFadden) said, there has been a tendency in the the enormous scope for us to be a leading player in structure of such debates to look in the rear-view mirror. manufacturing and engineering in the 21st century. In the past 60 years, this country has often chosen the None of that is inevitable, of course, and nor will it stark model of economic sectors, selecting a service-based happen by chance. In the era of the most intense global economy over manufacturing. That has meant that, competition imaginable and with economies such as despite our remaining a strong manufacturing nation, China—known for its low-cost manufacturing—anxious the sector constitutes only 11% of our economy, compared to move up the value-added chain, Britain needs to put with 20% for Germany. As my hon. Friend the Member in place the best possible policy framework to ensure for Huddersfield said correctly, we have lurched too far that our ambitions are realised. In the words of Richard away from manufacturing over the last 30 to 40 years. Lambert, the former director-general of the CBI, the Manufacturing should constitute a much bigger share Government, particularly the Department designed to of our economy, but it should not be an either/or champion British growth, enterprise and industry, need situation; nor should it be at the expense of our service to provide sector. There should not be an artificial distinction, because service’s growth boosts manufacturing, and “a vision of the kind of economy we want to have in ten years vice versa. time and what it’s going to take to get from here to there”. I can think of no finer example than Rolls-Royce, Instead, however, a leading global manufacturer has whose Derby plant I visited last month, as did the hon. stated flatly: Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee). The company is “The government is not giving us a reason why we should be in synonymous with British excellence—indeed global the UK in 10 to 15 years’ time.” excellence—in engineering and manufacturing, but as The Government are not doing all that they can to we found out on our visit, it now derives half of its allow British manufacturing to fulfil its potential. Worse revenues from services, in providing long-term customer than that, decisions taken by Ministers in the Department service contracts. The long-term revenues to be derived for Business, Innovation and Skills in the past 18 months from such services are reinvested into manufacturing have ensured that British manufacturing has taken a capability. backward step. Our economy has grown by just 0.5% in the past year compared with 1.5% in the US and 2.3% Mr Sheerman: I just want to correct a possible in Germany. Export activity is stalling, and both output misapprehension. The members of the all-party and sentiment are at their lowest levels since the height manufacturing group are not rear-view mirror people: of the recession two years ago. we actually believe that our manufacturing sector is superb in many aspects. It is just that we want to grow it That situation is confirmed by today’s publication of and invest in it, as well as to encourage more entrepreneurs the CBI’s industrial trend survey, the briefing on which to lead it. That is the purpose of this debate. We are not reported: negative: we are positive, and I congratulate my hon. “UK manufacturers reported a weakening in order books in Friend on choosing a product made by Britain, and I November, with export orders in particular deteriorating hope that every hon. Member will join the Made by significantly… As a result, firms expect a fall in production over Britain campaign. the coming quarter”. Not all of this is the Government’s fault, but an awful Mr Wright: I absolutely agree, and my hon. Friend lot of it is—far more than BIS Ministers will acknowledge. and I share the view of my right hon. Friend the BIS, charged with being the Department for growth, is Member for Wolverhampton South East that we should weak and out on a limb in Whitehall. Whether trying to be bold and ambitious about manufacturing. We do not secure a stimulus for the economy—we will see what hark back to the past, but we want to engender that happens on Tuesday with the autumn statement—or spirit of enterprise, innovation and ambition to ensure support for the UK train manufacturing industry, the that we are the best engineering nation anywhere on the solar panel industry, Sheffield Forgemasters or long-term planet, that people can go into a career in manufacturing investment in oil and gas, the Secretary of State always engineering secure in the knowledge that it is rewarding plays the game but always loses. Worse than that, though, and produces products that we can sell to the rest of the he always loses by putting the ball in his own net. The world, and that Britain leads the world in that area. CBI’s director-general, John Cridland, described the appalling decision, which the House debated yesterday, on feed-in tariffs and the threat to the solar panel Guy Opperman: May I take the shadow Minister industry as back to the future? Does he agree that the idea of local banks, as outlined by several hon. Members, and an “the latest in a string of government own goals”. industry bank such as KfW, should be supported by Opposition Members? Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): I agreed with much of what the hon. Gentleman said until he claimed Mr Wright: I listened closely to what the hon. Gentleman that the Government should take much of the blame said in his excellent contribution, and in a moment I over the past few months. I must return his mind to the will mention the problems that companies—especially fact that more than 1 million manufacturing jobs were manufacturing companies—have in accessing funds that lost under the tutelage of the previous Government. I would allow them to grow, especially in export markets. would like to hear his comments on that. 547 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 548

Mr Wright: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman A recurring theme of today’s debate has been the role has been following my comments but, over a 40 or of research and development and associated capital 50-year period, we have lurched too far away from allowances. Again, I want this country to be the best place manufacturing to the service sector. In the past 10 or for any investor in manufacturing to invest in research 15 years, though, productivity in manufacturing has and development, but R and D tax credits, the industry risen faster than ever in this country. My right hon. tells me, are not working. What can we do on capital Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East allowances and R and D spend? When can we expect touched on these matters. Given the rise of China and some clear vision from the Government about the road other players, globalisation and the fact that we were map that is needed as part of an effective and active the first country to industrialise, it was almost inevitable industrial policy? We have had welcome announcements that there would be a relative decline. However, our about funding for technology and innovation centres—I manufacturing industry has declined too far, too fast, think the Minister mentioned them in his remarks—but and we need to do something about that on a cross-party the ad hoc decision is a diluted version of what was set basis. Nevertheless, there has been great cause for optimism up and planned under the previous Labour Government, over the past 10 to 15 years. with businesses now unclear about how they fit into the bigger picture. The Department promised us its Mr Sheerman: This has been a refreshingly all-party manufacturing framework document over a year ago, discussion but I want to come back to feed-in tariffs. but it has still not been published. Where is it? The industry in green technology and green innovation Another common theme has been the concern— is growing dynamically and people in my constituency expressed by the hon. Members for Hexham and for in the business know that the feed-in tariff had to be Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle)—about the inability of modified, but for God’s sake why not give them six manufacturers to secure access to finance for growth. months to adjust, rather than allowing companies to go The Secretary of State’s initiatives have not worked. out of business and lose all that growth? Project Merlin has not secured its aims and the regional growth fund is not delivering on the ground. In the Mr Wright: My hon. Friend is correct, and to conclude space of 55 seconds—I timed it—in yesterday’s debate, this part of my speech, I shall quote the director-general the Secretary of State went from claiming that as a of the CBI with specific regard to that decision on result of the RGF, feed-in tariffs, which was taken without notice to the “factories have been built and the jobs are being created”—[Official industry. In keeping with our football metaphor, the Report, 23 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 333.] director-general said: to acknowledging, in response to the Chair of the Select “Moving the goalposts doesn’t just destroy projects. It creates a Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, that he mood of uncertainty that puts off investors. They wonder what’s could not provide a figure on the number of jobs coming next…Industry trust and confidence in the government created by that fund at all. Will the Government look has evaporated. This bodes poorly for investment in future again at this crucial issue of access to funding? initiatives…A new industrial policy needs to recognise the real-term Many companies are sitting on a pile of cash on their costs of bad decisions and should set out a clear path that balance sheets, largely because they have little confidence investors understand and can believe in.” in economic prospects, but is anything being done by We certainly agree with that, as the country has not got this Minister and the Department to free up some of the clear strategic direction we need from this Department. that cash to provide much needed finance to manufacturers? We sometimes get warm words; we often get welcome, I hope that the Minister will intervene to provide a albeit ad hoc, announcements. Industry, however, is degree of clarity on that; otherwise, I am happy to wait uncertain of the strategic direction in which the Government for the Chancellor’s autumn statement on Tuesday. and this Parliament want to take the country in Several hon. Members mentioned the huge opportunity manufacturing. for export markets. We have been behind the curve in emerging markets for some time. The CBI and Ernst Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): Coming back and Younghave just published a report, which demonstrated to the point about job losses, many manufacturing jobs that UK businesses tend to rely on the US and continental were lost under the previous Government over the Europe for their main export markets. The report quotes 13-year period, but some of them have moved, as the the chairman of a Mexican automotive parts manufacturer, Minister said, to the far east and elsewhere. Many of stating: these jobs were not particularly high-skilled, and modern “Overall I think the UK and its companies should pick the technology and manufacturing has moved on. The problem right battles and the right countries, and focus on specific sectors was that those jobs were not replaced quickly enough within those markets. There’s a lot of goodwill out there that’s not by more modern, hi-tech skilled jobs. That is the challenge been exploited.” the Government must face for the future. Will the Minister respond to that and set out what has been done—he touched on it in his opening remarks—to Mr Wright: I heartily agree with my hon. Friend. My strengthen our export capability? Time and again, firms questions for BIS Ministers relate to having an active say that they cannot exploit their potential by gaining industrial policy. Where is the assessment of the sectors access to export finance, that the range of such finance in which Britain has unique competitive advantages and is limited and that things such as the export credit of where we can sell our unique products to the rest of guarantee do not specifically address business needs. the world rather than lamely following the rest of the How can the Government address that? pack? Where are the clear milestones along the way that Industry states that the supply chain to UK would allow investment and business decisions to be manufacturing needs to be improved. That is crucial in taken with some degree of certainty and stability? ensuring that British manufacturing is competitive in 549 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 550

[Mr Iain Wright] tins of sweets we all have at Christmas—and, most important of all, the humble custard cream. Manufacturing global markets throughout the world. The Secretary of also matters nationally, as it is a key part of our past State acknowledges that. In his speech to the Policy and must be a key part of our future. We have to start Exchange last month, he talked about how making things again. “Government can support UK supply chains across a number of It was interesting to hear the shadow Minister, the sectors critical for future growth.” hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), talk about Since then, however, we have had no information or being an optimist and a pessimist, because before this detail, or even an announcement as to when we might debate, I concluded that our country has reasons to be be given any. Industry is crying out for that as a means pessimistic, reasons to be realistic, and, most important, of boosting its competitiveness, so it would be helpful if reasons to be optimistic. If we are pessimistic, we can the Minister could provide further detail. look back and consider that in 1980 manufacturing accounted for 24% of our economy, but the figure now Mr Bailey: Will my hon. Friend give way? is just 11%. Over the last 14 years we have lost 1.7 million jobs in manufacturing. We now rank between the sixth Mr Wright: Yes. I would very much like to hear from and the ninth largest manufacturing country, and we the Chair of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, are sliding down that list. We rank 18th highest for as he has great expertise in this area. machine tools investment, which is lower than Mexico. Germany has nine times more investment in plant and Mr Bailey: Given the potential to expand the supply machinery than the UK, and many areas of our chain in the west midlands through the Jaguar Land manufacturing have completely disappeared or have Rover development and the possible repatriation of the greatly reduced, such as textiles. supply chain for many of the Japanese manufacturers We have to be realistic. This country has less than because of the problems in Japan, does my hon. Friend 1% of the world’s population and we are no longer the agree that the Government must come up with measures engine-room of the world. Other countries will inevitably to bridge the capital funding gap, so that small businesses grow their manufacturing sectors and become larger can exploit these opportunities? manufacturing producers than us, and we have to accept that. We also have to accept that low-cost countries are Mr Wright: I entirely agree. One of the central themes hard to compete with in many ways. Technology and of my remarks is that we have a huge opportunity, and productivity also mean that fewer workers will often be that in the long term we can thrive as a leading required to produce the same amount of output. Although manufacturing nation, but first we must overcome some we must not lose sight of the fact that manufacturing is very serious short-term difficulties involving finance only part of our economy, it is important. Our trade and both domestic and international demand. Despite gap was £100 billion but that reduces to about £37 billion the warm words and fine rhetoric from the Government, when we take into account the surplus from services. I am not convinced that we are addressing the issues We have reasons to be optimistic about the future of that industry wants us to address. manufacturing: Britain remains a major manufacturing Manufacturing can play a leading part in Britain’s country; manufacturing contributes £140 billion a year 21st-century economy, but in order to succeed in the to our national economy and provides 55% of our modern era we need an active industrial strategy of exports; we remain a major force in aerospace and partnership, where the join between industry and pharmaceuticals; and our manufacturing industry is Government is not visible. Instead, we have a Department innovative. We often forget about the food and drink and a Government who lurch from one ad hoc industry, but it is our largest manufacturing sector, announcement to another, via a series of wrong industrial producing 15% of our output. It also produces 8,000 policies. We need something better and more ambitious, new products annually and it has survived the recession so that we can tap into this country’s enormous potential extremely well. Indeed, by 2017 it will need to recruit and ambition in manufacturing, including in innovation. about 137,000 people just to replace those retiring. I want Britain to be the best place anywhere in the world in which to carry out manufacturing, but in order We also need to take into account investment. There to secure that for the long term we need Government to is investment going on in this country: £500 million act now. from BMW; £192 million from Nissan; and the £55 million that Coca-Cola announced just yesterday. Business does want to invest in manufacturing and it wants to invest in 5.12 pm Britain. I am pleased to hear the Minister being positive John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I am delighted to about manufacturing and demonstrating that the have the opportunity to take part in this important Government are interested in manufacturing and want debate, and I congratulate the Members on both sides to be proactive. I congratulate them on the “Make it in of the House who secured it. The subject is central to Great Britain”campaign, which is to be warmly welcomed. the economic well-being of this country. Manufacturing We must also remember that the nature of manufacturing matters both locally and nationally. is changing. It is becoming more high-tech and more On the local scene first, in my constituency of Carlisle skilled, and that might be favourable to a country such there are five major manufacturing plants, as well as as ours. In the future, there will be growing markets. We many smaller manufacturing businesses. Those five major have talked about the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, plants are big employers; between them they employ India and China—but other countries in Asia give us between 3,000 and 4,000 staff, producing for national opportunities for the future. As countries become wealthier, and international markets world-class products, such as there is a diminishing gap between the emerging and the Pirelli tyres, Carr’s water biscuits, Quality Street—whose mature markets. That also gives us an opportunity to be 551 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 552 more competitive in the global market and to tackle the We have not only many small niche and high-end new markets that are being created. So I believe that manufacturers who supply locally and internationally there are reasons to be optimistic about the future. To but many world-leading firms that fly the flag for Britain. misquote Mark Twain, the reports of the death of They include companies such as Heights, which supplies manufacturing are greatly exaggerated. graphic arts equipment to major photographic companies, What can we do and what do we need to do to ensure such as Kodak and Fuji, and Calrec, which supplies that British manufacturing has a prosperous future? high-quality audio consoles to television studios all Clearly there is no panacea, but a combination of issues around the world, even to Japan. Hon. Members will all and ideas can help manufacturing. Undoubtedly, the be pleased to know that the consoles that allow the Government have an important role to play and it is nation to watch “The X Factor” every week come from good to be reassured by the Minister that they are aware Calrec in Hebden Bridge. We also supply 40% of the of the issues in manufacturing and want to support it. I European market’s caravan industry with caravan looms am talking about things such as reducing unnecessary made in Elland by BCA Leisure. They are Great British regulation, adopting a sensible tax regime, the Government companies, flying the Great British flag. The fantastic supporting, talking about and promoting manufacturing, thing that I am hearing from our local manufacturers is and helping the supply chain and helping with energy that we really are starting to fly, especially those who costs. The Department for Business, Innovation and manufacture to export. Skills is to be congratulated on its support for that. The absolute evidence of that is the huge investment We have had real successes. On skills, apprenticeships we are seeing in new machinery, jobs and factories in are being created up and down the country. The number the local area. No fewer than four brand-new factories has increased by 300 to 1,000 in my area, and that is to are about to open. Boxford Ltd, which manufactures be welcomed. We have also seen the expansion of the computer-aided design—or CAD—based lathes for university technical colleges and the targeted funding education is about to move into its purpose-built £6 million through the regional growth fund—for example, £2 million new factory next week. That was delayed by a month is going into Pirelli, with its plant in my constituency. because of a huge order received from Argentina, which Central Government form just one part of government; was not following the lead of America or Europe in the local government, which is another part, also has a role way that the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) to play, for example, through the planning system. I suggested earlier. welcome the changes in that area, but local government Decorative Panels is in the process of building its must take those opportunities, and be sensitive to business £8.5 million factory to incorporate two new factories and help it. Local authorities are often property owners for production and it will be up and running in April. and they also have an opportunity to help business and KT Hydraulics should also be fully operational by support its development. Industry must also help itself. February with its £2.5 million factory and Heights, It must take responsibility for research and development which I mentioned earlier, has just got planning permission investment, long-term planning and the training of its to double the size of its current factory up in Wainstalls. staff, and it must help to promote its own image. That is all evidence that when companies are stable and Engagement by the industry with councils, schools, low geared, they make a difference to our economy. colleges and universities is equally important. There is a but, however. Although the companies are I shall conclude by saying three things. First, I fully doing well and investing in our future, this really is a support and endorse the idea of my hon. Friend the tale of two halves. At the business breakfast forums I Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) that there should hold every eight weeks—I have done so for the past be a Minister for manufacturing. Such a person would three years—there has been a unanimous chorus about be the champion for manufacturing, working across the banks. Many Members have mentioned the banks Departments and ensuring that manufacturing is heard and how they are doing business. The banks would have and has a loud voice within government. Secondly, us believe that they are lending money to businesses and education and skills are vital, and I know that the I have no reason to doubt them, but the only problem is Government are working hard in that area. I am talking the conditions that they are imposing on our businesses, about skills that industry actually needs: the skills that normally at huge cost. will help us to develop our manufacturing sector for the I recently visited a local manufacturer that is a subsidiary future. Finally, probably the most important thing we of a larger world player in electronics. It supplies a large need is a cultural change. We need it in Government at a proportion of the Korean market and 20% of the national and local level, in schools, in the press and in Japanese market and recently got a fantastic deal from a the public’s view of manufacturing. If we have a national bank that perfectly met its business needs. The bank cultural change, I believe that manufacturing can have a was the Silicon Valley Bank in California. Why? Because prosperous future. in the words of the managing director of that company, it totally understood the business and its business needs. 5.20 pm I was also asked recently to attend a meeting with another local manufacturer and its bank manager. The Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): As more than company borrowed £100,000 several years ago to buy a 19% of the people who live in the Calder Valley work in building and a further £50,000 more recently to expand manufacturing, it is no wonder that I spend so much of the business. Business is up by 20% this year. After my constituency time visiting fantastic manufacturers sitting through the meeting for two hours listening to and local businesses. If the hon. Member for Huddersfield the bank manager sing the company’s praises and even (Mr Sheerman) classes Huddersfield as the cradle of saying he wished all his customers were like it, I left for manufacturing, without question Calder Valley is its another meeting only to learn later on in the day that family home. the bank manager had said after I had left that the bank 553 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 554

[Craig Whittaker] high. The fact that our education system was, and almost certainly still is, geared towards service sector would like to take a debenture over its fixed and floating jobs rather than traditional engineering and machine assets and have a joint and several guarantees from the operation is to our detriment. I recognise many of the directors. It was explained to them that that was all to points that the hon. Member for Huddersfield the benefit of the directors as it would move them down (Mr Sheerman) made about education, so I shall not the queue when the bank came asking for its money revisit them. I appreciate the apprenticeships that the back. That is the type of thing that I hear week in and Minister mentioned earlier, but we need more of those week out from my manufacturers. to cover the skills gaps. Calder Valley manufacturers are among the world’s A far more worrying issue, which is a huge hindrance best. Indeed, in many cases, they are the very best at to growth generally but manufacturing in particular, is what they do. They do not want a hand up or handouts— the availability of funds, which my hon. Friend the just a plain, old-fashioned level playing field. They tell Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) mentioned. me week in and week out that they will do their best to The banks can give very small loans but when the get on and play their part. We need the Government to requirement creeps over the £10,000 mark, it gets very put pressure on our banks to look at their practices and difficult. The enterprise finance guarantee scheme is to get to know intimately what their local customers do. supposed to fill the gap between equity investment and For far too long, business account managers in banks the lower levels at which banks are lending, but it fails liaise with customers but then decisions about financial on two counts. First, the banks do not like it and will transactions are made by faceless people who are often not lend with the 25% risk factor. Secondly, the amounts miles away and have no idea or clue about what the being loaned are just too small. businesses that are asking for the loans do. That needs to change. If it does not, the manufacturers that are still There are 4.8 million SMEs in this country, but the in business will turn more and more to banks such as Government are currently targeting loans at only 6,000 the Silicon Valley bank, which, in the words of a Calder for this year. In comparison with previous years, the Valley managing director, amount of funding has decreased. There was £1.3 billion “totally understood our business and our business needs.” in 2009-10 and £700 million in 2010-11, and the figure has gone down to £600 million for 2011-12. They are The current situation cannot be good for manufacturers, not just grants; they are loans that the Government get business or the country as a whole. back. We accept the need to charge full business rates on empty buildings. That was mentioned earlier and would I recognise what the right hon. Member for have been my third example had I more time. Some Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) was saying businesses might need to benefit from an extension or a about the creative industries. To my knowledge, not a deferment plan; otherwise some of the businesses that single small firms loan guarantee has been given to the are really struggling are going to fold. It is clear that our music industry, and that is a great shame. In the first manufacturers in Calder Valley are a beacon for our half of 2011, just 1,779 firms were successful in obtaining economy. Let us make sure that we can facilitate greater such loan guarantees, and the average amount is just growth by listening to our manufacturers, by putting under £100,000 per loan. pressure on the banks and by helping manufacturers My second point is the funding gap. Anything under when they need support. £5 million is difficult to finance. When I purchased the company in Newhaven, East Sussex in 1997, we bought 5.27 pm it for £4.2 million. The venture capital company that backed us then has said that it would not back a Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): I shall be brief and similarly low investment again. Anything under £5 million hope not to take up the full eight minutes I have been is considered totally uneconomic. That and the funding allotted. I want to concentrate on smaller manufacturers. for small businesses trying to grow our industries need My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington to be addressed. (Chris White) might be interested to know that I come to the debate with a certain amount of expertise. First, I Exports are another financing-related issue. I was am a chartered management accountant and that pleased to hear what the Minister said about the profession is geared towards manufacturing. In addition, Government’s growth targets. I will certainly hold the I was previously the owner and finance director of a Government to account to try to reach the levels that manufacturing company in East Sussex. While I was we would like to achieve. However, funding for exports there, we won a Queen’s Award for Export, a Queen’s is not balanced sufficiently when compared with inward Award for Enterprise, and Sussex company of the year. investment. Of course, inward investment is good for a The company exported to 48 countries worldwide and short-term fix for jobs, but we must substantially address had five satellite offices overseas. I pay tribute to my the fact that exporting is an important part of any previous business partners Hugh Burnett and David recovery in the long term. Westcott and to all the staff at Cash Bases. In summary, the enterprise loan guarantee scheme The two areas I would like to highlight today are must be improved. The 25% collateral that the banks staffing and finance. When I owned that company in the require puts them off making proposals. Indeed, the late ’90s we had enormous trouble recruiting staff at all amount available under such schemes must be increased levels. We even laid on buses from outlying areas. That to get closer to where equity investment becomes sufficiently was in the boom years after the Conservatives had put realistic. Lastly, let us not forget the staffing implications. the economy on a good financial basis but the shortage We must gear towards manufacturing, not just the of both skilled and unskilled workers was exceptionally service sectors. 555 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 556

5.31 pm Yorkshire building society and Provident, which was formed in 1880 in Bradford. Provident’s representatives Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): We have heard were here yesterday, along with representatives from advice to not go back in time, but I should like to go Westfield and Morrisons, to sell Bradford to the City. back 170 years to 1840, when two thirds of the country’s wool products were made in Bradford. In fact, by 1850 We are UNESCO’s first city of film; we have a it was the world capital for wool. In 1876, when Sir Titus tourism offer; and we have wonderful theatres, universities Salt died, 100,000 people lined the streets during his and colleges. We are not just about manufacturing, but funeral to commemorate his work. Now, of course, the future of Bradford must lie in a successful, thriving Saltaire village is a world heritage site, but the huge mill manufacturing sector. We have the largest single-site closed down in 1986. chemical plant in the UK, but most of the manufacturing businesses—71%, or 1,300 of them—have fewer than Some hon. Members might be aware of the Jowett 10 employees. The newly created Bradford and Airedale motor car, which was produced in Idle in Bradford. Idle Manufacturing Alliance is contributing to the regeneration is where I live. I was in fact, yes, the Idle councillor for of the manufacturing industry through networking, 26 years. Jowett closed and was taken over by International providing new business opportunities, looking at Harvester, which closed in 1983. I get quite cross when I co-operative working, and the spreading of best practice, hear people who are old enough to remember the ’80s advice and guidance. There is very much a renaissance recession compare this one to that one. There is no taking place. comparison. When International Harvester shut, the council estate in the ward that I represented had 70% male To conclude, as a Bradford MP I have a duty to speak unemployment and men who did not work again and out and remind Members of the history of places such had children who did not work. That was the scale of as Bradford. Without manufacturing, there would have things in those days. been no Bradford as we know it, and manufacturing must be an integral part of the future. The message to I shall explain the relevance of those two examples. the Minister is please not to let places such as Bradford Salt’s mill was brought back to life by the brilliant work down. Bradford is ready to rise to the challenge, and to of remarkable Jonathan Silver. It is now the home of make its contribution to rebalancing the economy. It is the Saltaire art gallery, where David Hockney has an a new dawn in Bradford, but in that new dawn exhibition. More pertinent to the debate is the fact that manufacturing must be centre stage. I understand that it is the home of Pace plc, which is the largest Yorkshire manufacturing is 3% of the economy in London; it is technology company and has more than 500 staff there. 13% in Bradford. A total commitment to manufacturing The International Harvester site became a large Morrisons is therefore not only part of the very welcome rebalancing complex, with a shop for itself and a large retail outlet. from the service sector to manufacturing, but a crucial Particularly important to this debate is the fact—not part of rebalancing from the south and the south-east many people understand this—that Morrisons is a large to the regions. That is long overdue, and those of us food manufacturer. In fact, it provides 5,000 food with an interest in manufacturing, and all of us with an manufacturing jobs. Those are examples of two important interest in the north, are impatient for that. sites that were part of Bradford’s previous manufacturing glory and have had a second life. 5.39 pm I ought to compliment both Morrisons and Pace on the fact that, like Titus Salt, they are reinvesting in the David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I community. Top graduates from Pace visit schools in am delighted to be called to speak in the debate, not our deprived communities as part of the Teach First only to highlight the needs of my constituents and the programme to put something back into the community. manufacturing industry, but to support my room-mate Morrisons offers a university degree in food manufacturing, and hon. Friend—he is not right hon. yet, but headed and is providing work for 1,000 homeless people across that way—the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman). the country. The textile industry still exists in Bradford. I like to think that I have taught him everything he We have Haworth Scouring, which is the largest wool- knows. processing business of its kind in the world, and some My constituency is heavily reliant on energy production 70% of its produce goes to China for carpets. and manufacturing. Like many north Lancashire constituencies, we make high-spec components for clients I praise Labour as much as I possibly can whenever it in the energy, defence and constructions industries. is warranted, to try to ensure that I have some credibility When we watch programmes on television about the when I point out the things that it did wrong. In amazing engineering feats involved in BAE Systems, in Bradford, between 1998 and 2008, we lost 15,000 nuclear submarines at Barrow-in-Furness and in the manufacturing jobs—or 40%. That was at a time when nuclear power station at Heysham, in all likelihood the there were 40 successive quarters of growth in the vital components we see will have been made or designed economy. I say that not just to have a go at Labour, but in my constituency. North Lancashire has a skills base to point out why this debate is crucial. I do not for a that allows it to compete favourably with areas that second believe that that was the deliberate intention of have low labour costs. Manufacturers in China and the Labour Government; it happened in error as a India, for example, are unable to offer their products result of neglect. We need to understand why this with a 10-year guarantee because they are often not of debate is so important; it is so that we have a focus on the same quality. The situation is similar to that of the future, as was said earlier, and the future must BMW in Germany: it has never produced the cheapest include manufacturing. cars but is popular because of its build quality and Bradford is not just about manufacturing. It has a reliability. Our manufacturing sector is struggling not as financial services sector, and that, thank goodness, kept a result of a lack of orders, but because of the perennial us going through some of the dark days. There is problem of recent years: lack of money. 557 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 558

[David Morris] plumbing system at Sidra hospital in Qatar to the A380 super-jumbo jet, British manufacturing is a vibrant part Any manufacturer of high-quality components needs of our economy. Contrary to popular myth, we are still to invest large sums in three keys areas: machinery, IT the world’s seventh largest manufacturer, but without packages and training. It is worth going through each in solutions to the capital outlay problem we will never turn. On machinery, I was talking recently to a manufacturer reach our full potential. We must give our companies in my constituency who used to import 5,000 plumbing the money that they need, because it is vital to invest in hoses a year. The products were no cheaper to order the future and in manufacturing. They maintain our from China than they were in UK, but placing an order skills base and are vital to the diversity of the British gave 30 days’ credit and the outlay is lower than buying economy. a machine. It took the company several years to save We should take this debate forward and act upon it. I enough money to buy the machine needed to make the thank again everyone for taking part in it, and my hon. hoses, but once it did it began making 7,000 a year. Friend the Member for Hexham for bringing it forward Obviously, British workers were employed to operate in the first place. the machine, cutting unemployment in the constituency. Whatever we do in this difficult economic period, we must find a way of ensuring that businesses are able to 5.45 pm access money and buy vital machinery. Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): I, too, congratulate On IT packages, the modern computer developed my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) from an idea that came out of Bletchley Park during the on bringing about this debate. I also congratulate the second world war. We have always been world leaders in Minister on his comments so far and, in particular, the IT, but as computer packages have become more shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hartlepool sophisticated the costs have risen. Although the packages (Mr Wright), not only on his contribution, but on the save staff time and improve productivity, they also resilience of his bladder, which has enabled him to stay require capital outlay. I have heard plenty of examples in his place for such a long time. It is always a pleasure of manufacturers being unable to turn ideas into viable to see him. On these occasions, it is difficult to think of products because the IT package required is just too something to say that is different from the contributions expensive. I am not complaining about IT costs per se, that other Members have been making for what seems as the people who design the products deserve to be like 25 hours. But I shall do my best. properly paid. My complaint is once again that banks I was born into a family with a modest factory, and I and the old regional development agencies were so poor saw the decline of British manufacturing through my at supporting businesses with the capital they needed to own experiences and my own eyes, because my father buy the products in the first place. was similar to most small manufacturers of clothing in On training, I suppose a purist accountant would not Leeds, near to the constituency of the hon. Member for view training as capital expenditure, but manufacturers Bradford East (Mr Ward), and he had a similar business are often required to pay for expensive training before a to those in Bradford. He was put out of business by product is ever made. In practical terms, that means imports, but we have to look beyond that and ask, that lack of credit and poorly administered grants have “Why has manufacturing failed?” [Interruption.] The an impact. Training for some IT packages can cost shadow Minister shakes his head, but it has failed, and I £1,500 per member of staff. When a company needs will explain why. large numbers of staff to be trained, it is easy to see how Manufacturing has failed as a type of business for costs soon mount up. entrepreneurs to go into as a start-up. We all know that I have laid out three problems, but what are the in Britain most large businesses started off not with big solutions? First, we must accept that for small and foreign investment, which has been very successful, but medium-sized enterprises the regional development agencies with people deciding to start businesses in a small way simply did not work. They were too unresponsive and and to build them up to medium-sized businesses and too focused on larger businesses. Many companies that then into some of the great businesses, such as those I have spoken with got the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the hon. Gentleman mentioned in Hartlepool. that RDAs would step in only if a product would fail Manufacturing has failed for three reasons. First, without them. That makes sense on paper, but in reality there has been a failure of capitalism in this particular it is not about a product falling; it is about how quickly field. Members might think it strange to hear a Conservative it can be brought to market and where it is made. Member using Marxist terminology—[Laughter]— Grants were not always available for speculative investments particularly for the amusement of the hon. Member such as the machinery, IT packages and training I have for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman)—but I mean that mentioned. Things need to change and enterprise zones although a lot of capital has been employed in businesses are a step in the right direction. in this country, comparatively little has been used by I know everyone will agree that we also need to get manufacturing. That is because capital is invested to credit moving. I have now accepted that the big six obtain a return, and in my generation manufacturing banks cannot or will not help. We need greater diversity enterprise has not generally led to significant returns. in our banking sector, so that the big banks are forced Capital that belonged to families has grown in other to serve business better. We need a regulatory environment ways. My father is a classic example of a person who, that encourages more banks to enter the UK market having found that his business was worthless, sold a and encourages more British companies to establish banks. small site to property developers and probably made “Made in Britain” is still a mark of quality throughout more money than he could have in years of business. the world, and our products still command a premium That is the story of many family manufacturing businesses that makes our manufacturing viable. From the new in this country. 559 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 560

Secondly, there has been a failure of management. must have people who believe it is a perfectly respectable The hon. Member for Huddersfield, in an excellent and proper occupation to work in a factory. We want contribution, mentioned being shown around Magdalen them to, and they should be properly rewarded for college, Oxford, where he was told that the bright doing so. However, we cannot have a situation in which undergraduates were going into the City. When he people feel it is not the right thing to do. made that point, he was looking at my right hon. Friend Manufacturing has been the victim of imperfections the Minister, who I remember from my time was in fact in capital and in management, its status in society and at Christ Church rather than Magdalen, but I am sure the attitude of labour towards it. Such a situation needs he accepts that in our generation exactly the same thing to be corrected, but that should be done on the true happened. basis of entrepreneurship, which relates to people who Why did people go into the City? First, those people may be called greedy by some. They want to make who were business-minded went, perfectly reasonably, money, but they will pay their taxes and employ people into businesses where they felt they could make a lot of as a by-product. It is a great thing to employ people but, money. Secondly, and to draw another a Marxist analogy, for somebody going into business, it is a by-product for more than 100 years the class system in Britain rather than the reason they are doing it. When looked down on manufacturing industry, so all that manufacturing becomes easier than property development, people such as my father, who was in manufacturing, easier than the City, easier than management consultancy, wanted was for their sons not to have to put up with easier than the law or, indeed, politics, it will come what they had put up with. These days people would back—but only then. say that manufacturing is not “cool” or “culturally acceptable”, but for many years has fallen, let us say, out of fashion. 5.53 pm Guy Opperman: I thank colleagues who have contributed Craig Whittaker: I have a lot of empathy for what my to the debate, in which there has been a cross-party hon. Friend is saying. I mentioned in my speech the optimism about the fundamentals of manufacturing. It companies Boxford, Heights, BCA Leisure and Decorative is a noble profession and a wonderful sector to work in. Panels, all from the Calder Valley. They started from There is optimism for the future of manufacturing, and very small premises indeed and have built up. Does he that is what this debate is about, rather than the past. agree that the biggest problem at the moment is that the There has been an understanding of the past difficulties banks just are not investing in research and development? from which successive Governments and businesses down the years have suffered and of the present problems of Richard Harrington: I very much agree with my hon. globalisation, the Chinese influence, energy prices and Friend’s intervention, but that issue has been covered in the extent to which the state is struggling with the debt other hon. Members’ speeches, and in the remaining and difficulties faced by each country in the eurozone, time I am trying not to mention it for that reason—valid particularly this one. There has been recognition that though it is. we must subsidise and support individual businesses The reality is that for bright young people, manufacturing and manufacturing organisations, whether with a form is not, by and large, something for them to go into. For of capital allowances, R and D, tax credits or the like. some reason it is different in the United States. Very Although there is a tradition for men to be involved bright graduates—the brightest that Harvard and other in manufacturing, I was particularly heartened to hear places have—could always join firms such as Ford, my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee) General Motors and IBM. At those companies, they contribute so robustly to the debate. As a female Member could expect to make as much money—if it is, indeed, of Parliament, she spoke very eloquently of the role of money they are interested in—as the people who joined women entrepreneurs. I strongly support the view that Goldman Sachs or such firms in Wall street or the City. this is a profession not only for men but for women. I We have not had that here so, in my experience—and apologise to all women for saying, when I described the that of the hon. Member for Huddersfield at Magdalen need for a Minister for manufacturing, that we needed a college and of the Minister at Christ Church college— go-to guy; of course, it could just as well be a go-to people who were interested in making a lot of money woman. from our generation did not go into manufacturing. I have mentioned capital and management. The third The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon issue is labour. I am not falling into the ridiculous trap Burns): Or gal. of saying, “It’s the fault of the unions and the workers that we don’t have manufacturing.” Nevertheless, the Guy Opperman: Or gal, as my right hon. Friend on issue of labour is a contributory factor. In Watford, the Front Bench so eloquently puts it. The learned where we have a few very good manufacturing companies, Minister has intervened on many previous occasions, notwithstanding that there are 3,000 people on jobseeker’s and we have another bon mot at last. allowance in the constituency, manufacturers have a I listened to the 19 speakers who contributed to the problem getting unskilled labour because they cannot debate. We finished, last but by no means least, in get people who will do night shifts and consistently do Watford, having journeyed north to Morecambe and the kind of work that is expected. It is not dangerous the bay, taken in Bradford East and Hove, and travelled work, but it is fairly mundane. Consequently, they have back up to Yorkshire and Calder Valley and then on to to import labour from Poland. Carlisle and Hartlepool. At this stage, the Minister It is not right in the remaining nanosecond I have left appeared. I must apologise to him, because I think I to go into detail about the benefit culture, but we have said that he was from Bognor. Of course, I have nothing to accept that if manufacturing is going to return, we against Bognor—everyone loves Bognor—but he is the 561 Manufacturing24 NOVEMBER 2011 Manufacturing 562

[Guy Opperman] PETITION representative of Havant, as we all know, except the Proposed Development on Coastal Road, Bolton-le- hon. Member for Hexham. We then journeyed to Erewash, Sands (Lancashire) Derby North, Pendle, Blaenau Gwent, Warwick, West Bromwich West, Burnley, Wolverhampton South East, 5.57 pm Weaver Vale, and then to Huddersfield and up to the finest constituency of them all—which is, of course, David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): Hexham. This petition is about the granting of planning permission to an unwanted development in Bolton-le-Sands. It is The future of manufacturing is worth our taking up signed by 1,036 people. the debating time of the Backbench Business Committee. The three co-sponsors of the debate—my hon. Friends The petition states: the Members for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) The Petition of residents of Bolton-le-Sands and others, and for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) and the hon. Member Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to planning application for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman)—have done so much 10/00830/0UT, relating to a proposed development on Coastal to try to put manufacturing back in the frame in the Road, Bolton-le-Sands, as the Petitioners believe that there is no House of Commons, and that is the right thing to do. It demand for any further development in the area as many properties are not fully occupied and many are already on the market; that is noticeable that we are already receiving press coverage there are insufficient employment opportunities in the area for on the need for a Minister for manufacturing. any incoming inhabitants; that there is insufficient space in local There seems to be widespread agreement that the schools for incoming children; that there will be increased pressure on what the Petitioners believe are already overstretched local banking system needs reform and improvement so that NHS services; that the development will change the character of these businesses, which we all so cherish and want to the area, with a detrimental impact on the landscape and residential receive support, receive that support, whether it is from amenities, including causing the loss of open spaces that enhance a local bank or an industry bank such as that championed the quality of life of everyone in the area; that the development so well by the Germans with the KfW model. Such will cause a loss of grazing land and essential hedgerow habitats; possibilities give businesses an endless ability to thrive that the development presents a risk to the canal and species in in future. We all agree that that is the model for the way the canal ecosystem; that the development will result in the ahead. I look forward to the forthcoming meeting with joining up of the villages of Bolton-le-Sands and Hest Bank and that there will be an increase in vehicular traffic on already busy the FSA to discuss the local bank project. The Government roads, particularly on Coastal Road which has seen numerous should clearly be picking winners; manufacturing is a accidents in recent years. winner, and it has a very good future. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Question put and agreed to urges the Government to use any means possible to overturn the decision of Lancaster City Council to approve the development Resolved, on Coastal Road, Bolton-le-Sands. That this House has considered the matter of the future of And the Petitioners remain, etc. manufacturing. [P000986] 563 24 NOVEMBER 2011 Local Pharmacies 564

Local Pharmacies hoops that pharmacists are obliged to jump through to obtain medicines on such occasions. All too often, they Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House have to ring round other pharmacists in the hope that do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.) they have the medicines available, spend time on the phone to the wholesaler or the manufacturer, or send 6pm faxes with copies of prescriptions to manufacturers in Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): May I thank the desperate effort to find supplies on the day for their you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and your good offices for patients. On too many occasions, they are told that granting this Adjournment debate on a subject that there is no stock available from the wholesaler or the affects hundreds if not thousands of people right across manufacturer. Despite the time spent on that wild goose the country in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern chase, pharmacists still try to provide the multitude of Ireland? I hope to encourage, support, prompt, cajole other services that the NHS and we ask of them. and beat the Minister—in a very nice way—to put some Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate urgency into this matter, which I know he is aware of the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on such an and is working on. I think that we need to do more. I important topic. Is he aware of the survey conducted as can understand why this issue has not grabbed the recently as this month by Lloyds Pharmacy of its headlines that other health-related issues have. pharmacists, which confirmed the point that he is making? A very wise MP once said to me, “Don’t go looking It found that 50% of the pharmacists surveyed were for issues. They will walk though your door.” That is spending between one and three hours a week trying to exactly what happened. A female constituent came through source medicines, and that 16% were spending between my door about a year ago and said, unbelievably—it four and six hours a week doing so—almost a day of was unbelievable and I had some scepticism about their working time. it—that she could not get Femara, a cancer treatment drug. I said that that simply could not be the case because Huw Irranca-Davies: Absolutely. The hon. Lady makes it is a readily available drug. It is not a drug that is not a very good point. I am aware of that survey, and I will prescribed or that there is any shortage of. She left feeling touch on it. This is not a party political issue at all, it is a little disgruntled, but I agreed to take up the issue. very much cross-party, and I know she has a real I contacted the chemist, who said that my constituent interest in and specialist knowledge of the matter. We was absolutely right. They said, “I cannot get hold of it can help the Minister by suggesting to him some ways in my own stocks, I cannot get hold of it locally by forward. ringing other chemists and I cannot get hold of it from The Lloyds survey to which the hon. Lady refers was my regular distributors. I actually have to ring the of 400 pharmacists, and it showed that 80% of pharmacists manufacturer.” Even having done that, there was a were unable to dispense items, or had had to call their delay before it was delivered, leaving somebody without local GP surgery, for four or more prescriptions a week. their cancer treatment drugs. The implications of that For 26%, that number rose to more than 10 prescriptions are not only physical and medical, but emotional. a week. On average, half of pharmacists surveyed were spending at least one to three hours a week trying to Having looked into the matter further, it appears that resolve stock availability problems for patients. That this is a widespread concern. Like most people, I assumed includes ringing around other stores, contacting suppliers that if a drug was a prescribed medication, it would be and liaising with prescribers. Critically, as she said, widely and freely available. I did not know about the 16% spend at least four to six hours a week doing systemic problem that we face in the UK in ensuring so, and 8% spend more than six hours a week chasing the supply of life-saving medicines. If one looks behind down stock. the façade of normality, one can see clearly the pressure on the pharmaceutical drug supply chain from Another survey that has been undertaken, of which manufacturers, through wholesales and distributors, to the House may not be aware, is a 2011 preliminary pharmacists and right down to individual patients. survey on medicine supply shortages by Chemist and Druggist online. It found, echoing those earlier findings, The Minister will be aware that today there are that 93% of respondents were spending more than one problems with about 50 products. Those medicines treat hour a week sourcing key medicines. It found that 54% a wide range of conditions including cancer, Parkinson’s were spending more than two hours a week doing so, disease, schizophrenia, depression, asthma, diabetes and and that 10% were spending five hours or more. If they high blood pressure. All of those products seem to be in are doing that, they are not providing the front-of-counter short supply due to the problem in the supply chain. In services that we want them to, such as helping people the midst of coming to terms with a serious medical with minor ailments and providing other assistance. condition, the last thing that I, the Minister, you, Madam That survey also found that 90% had had to ask GPs to Deputy Speaker, or anybody would want to face is the change a prescription in the face of shortages, and that fear of not being able to receive their treatment or of 70% had found getting hold of branded medicines even having it interrupted because of a problem in obtaining harder in the past year than in previous years. Those the medicine. Yet that is the precise situation for too figures mirror those in the previous survey the year many people on a daily basis. before. The problem is at least as bad as it was a year It is our community pharmacists on the front line ago, and possibly getting worse. who see the overwhelming reality of this problem. I Let me personalise the matter. I spoke to a community know that the Minister will recognise that when pharmacists pharmacist from Rasharkin in Northern Ireland this cannot get hold of a drug for their patients, they work week, who told me: hard behind the scenes, under the calm waters, often in “Supply chain issues are becoming an increasing problem as I a Herculean effort, to ensure that nobody is left without continually have to telephone the manufacturer directly for stock. their vital medicine. I have seen in my constituency the For example today”— 565 Local Pharmacies24 NOVEMBER 2011 Local Pharmacies 566

[Huw Irranca-Davies] Thirdly, quotas put in place by manufacturers to control demand are crude and lack the flexibility to meet Monday 21 November— ordinary fluctuations in demand. In one case, a pharmacy “we had four prescriptions outstanding for a drug for depression; was restricted by a quota to 28 days of supply for a we had ordered these electronically through the manufacturer’s medicine, meaning that it was unable to fulfil 56-day chosen supplier five days ago but the stock has still not arrived. prescriptions. To overcome such situations, pharmacists We had to telephone the manufacturer for stock today and they must place so-called emergency orders directly with the insisted we supply copies of the prescriptions. I refused as I manufacturers for stock to be delivered individually in believe there are issues here with patient confidentiality. They unscheduled deliveries, which often arrive via courier agreed to send only a partial order. Two of the above patients will be without their medication until the supply arrives, the other two companies one or two days after the identified patient have enough to keep them going for a few days.” need. Patients in that situation are all too often left with only Increasingly, patients are forced to wait while the a small supply, and sometimes with none of the medicines pharmacists make daily emergency orders with various that they need. Research by the Patients Association manufacturers. They often have to go through quite found that half of those surveyed had had to wait two intrusive audit questions to prove they have a genuine or more days to get their medication when there were patient need. On top of that, the patient has to await stock availability problems, and that two thirds felt delivery. Another pharmacist—from Gwynedd—said from their personal experiences that medicine shortages of this unacceptable situation: were definitely having an impact on people’s health. “In many instances after phoning our wholesalers and the That situation will see real harm caused. manufacturers and even…specialist wholesalers, we are eventually The Chemist and Druggist 2011 survey has already able to source the drug, but it doesn’t arrive for 2 to 3 days.” found tangible incidents of harm caused to patients by In March 2010, the then Secretary of State, my right a lack of available medicines. To cite some examples, it hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), found incidents of a pharmacist having to refer a patient held a summit meeting of all industry stakeholders and back to hospital because of a shortage of drug supply; formulated an action plan. In February 2011, the patients describing themselves as “stressed and upset”, Department of Health published guidance, but as we and suffering severe emotional trauma; a patient approach 2012, a solution is still not in sight, unless the experiencing difficulties with anxiety that had previously Minister brings some clarity today. The guidance is a been controlled by their medication; and a diabetic step in the right direction, as recognised by Pharmacy patient suffering a hyperglycaemic episode while waiting Voice, but it is not the silver bullet—there is no silver for their medication. bullet. Problems remain and it is time for further affective The evidence showing the problems in the supply of action to be taken. medicines to local pharmacists is clearly overwhelming. What should that action be? We should update the The reality for patients, including the one who came regulations on patient access to medicines to make them through my door a year ago, is frightening. Despite the fit for purpose. Currently, there is a duty to supply, but hard work of pharmacists everywhere, the results could no time scale in which to do so within the UK. In other be fatal. We must avoid that. The situation was noted by EU nations, including Belgium, France, Finland, Germany, the all-party group on pharmacy this week when it Greece, Hungary, Italy, Norway, Portugal and Spain, announced that it will hold a full-scale inquiry into the have implemented a patient or public service obligation—I continuing problem of shortages in NHS medicines. prefer the phrase “patient service obligation—on the The reasons for the shortage in the supply of such manufacturers and wholesalers to ensure that community crucial medicines, as in any situation, are varied. First, pharmacists can get medicines to their patients when as the Minister will know, European competition policy and where they are needed. It is time for the UK to promotes a free market in medicines. The trade is legal implement its own, albeit adapted, version of a patient and encouraged by the EU. With the weak pound, there service obligation. The Minister might be hesitant to do is money to be made—by pharmacists, wholesalers and that, but we place obligations on distribution network others—by selling drugs to those in Europe. operators to connect people to the national grid to The Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry ensure that they receive an uninterrupted supply of states that the recent Medicines and Healthcare products electricity, and yet we have no obligations on an Regulatory Agency announcement that it will repeal uninterrupted supply of medicines. section (10)(7) of the Medicines Act 1968 to prevent There are different ideas on what would constitute a pharmacists from trading without a wholesale licence is patient service obligation, but let me suggest some an important step in the right direction, but it will not principles that might underpin one. First, all those who solve the problem. Experience has shown that supply in supply medicines, whether manufacturers, distributors the market well beyond what is needed for UK patients or dispensers, should have a duty to ensure that the does not solve the problem of shortages at pharmacy level medicine supply chain is economically efficient in line —it simply results in more stock being diverted overseas. with the clinical needs of patients, so it delivers to them The second reason is the number of wholesalers. on time. Secondly, all those who supply medicines should There are now 1,800 wholesale dealer licences in the have a duty to ensure that patients can easily and UK. Additionally, according to the British Association quickly obtain the medicines they need and to prioritise of Pharmaceutical Wholesalers, six years ago, a pharmacist the supply of medicines to UK patients. Thirdly, medicine could order from their chosen wholesaler almost any supply arrangements must be sufficiently robust and medicine manufactured, but nowadays, they need to stable to guarantee a continuous supply to patients, order from at least two or three wholesalers, which including the rigour needed to absorb any short-term means two or three deliveries at different times of the disruption—for example, through extreme weather day, with two or three times the paperwork. conditions, as we saw last year. 567 Local Pharmacies24 NOVEMBER 2011 Local Pharmacies 568

Such a patient service obligation would receive support Supplying medicines to patients requires a complex, across the supply chain from manufacturers, wholesalers, international infrastructure. There are around 16,000 pharmacists and patients. The National Pharmacy licensed medicines covering tablets, capsules and injections, Association and the British Association of Pharmaceutical and different dosages, and nearly 900 million NHS Wholesalers are already on board, and the Association prescription items are dispensed every single year. As of the British Pharmaceutical Industry is keen to learn hon. Members will appreciate, it is a vast undertaking. more. Indeed, the Government have not ruled out a patient Given that complexity and scale, there are difficulties service obligation. I see no reason why active discussions from time to time, and not only the UK is affected: between all interested parties—the manufacturers, recently the US has had problems of its own. There are wholesalers, pharmacies and patients associations —cannot many different reasons why patients might have problems begin immediately, brokered by the Minister and the getting hold of their medicines, and they range from Department of Health. Perhaps the Minister would like difficulties in obtaining raw materials to manufacturing to know that a recent Pharmacy Voice survey has problems and the overseas sale of medicines intended shown that such a move would find considerable favour for this country. I would like to speak about all of these. with the public. Supply issues can arise as a result of parallel trade, as It is time for the Department of Health to lead on the hon. Gentleman mentioned. That is when medicines this vital issue. The evidence is overwhelming and the are bought at low prices in one European country and urgency palpable. Everyone is ready to find a solution then resold at higher prices in another. When the euro and ensure that the aims of a patient service obligation— got stronger relative to the pound, exporting UK medicines ensuring that no one goes without their vital medicines—are to other European countries become more profitable. more than just an ambition, and become a reality. I At the moment, parallel trade exports are therefore hope the Minister in his response—I know that he is reducing the supply of medicine available to UK patients. aware of the criticality of this issue—can assure the I stress that this parallel exporting is legal and can be House of his intention to act on this issue with real carried out by anyone who holds the necessary licences urgency. under the medicines legislation. Indeed, in the past, UK patients have benefited from medicines being imported 6.16 pm to this country by the same process. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon I cannot stress firmly enough that there are existing Burns): May I begin by congratulating the hon. Member legal duties on manufacturers and distributors, within for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) on securing this the limits of their responsibilities, to maintain a suitable debate? I know that he has been assiduous in highlighting supply of medicines to pharmacies so that the needs of this important issue in his constituency and beyond, patients are met, but regrettably a minority of operators and anyone who doubts that need only have listened to in the supply chain are thought to be putting profit his speech—or can read it in Hansard tomorrow—to before patients. I know that this is not condoned by the know his commitment to, knowledge of and passion for majority of the supply chain. Indeed, manufacturers this issue of genuine concern in many areas. It is also a and pharmacies have to fill the gap that these practices pleasure to see my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge create. (Margot James) in her place, as I know that she has a Manufacturers have introduced quotas to try to target long-standing interest in the subject, having secured a supply but this reduces pharmacies’ flexibility to meet debate on the pharmaceutical situation earlier in this unexpected patient need. Pharmacies use contingency Session. arrangements to get medicines directly from the I assure all hon. Members that I am sadly all too manufacturer rather than from their usual wholesaler. aware of the difficulties that pharmacists and members We have recognised this in NHS funding for community of the public have had in obtaining some prescription pharmacies but it still annoys the majority that are medicines. It was particularly moving when the hon. putting patients first. I understand that that is frustrating Gentleman spoke of the experience of someone he for many parts of the supply chain and can lead to knows who regrettably had trouble getting hold of one delays in some patients getting their medicines. However, of her medicines, Femara, which is used to treat breast the Department of Health, the Medicines and Healthcare cancer. We freely discuss policy at meetings and in the products Regulatory Agency and the supply chain Chamber, but those discussions suddenly seem very stakeholders—manufacturers, wholesalers and pharmacies distant when we are confronted with the reality of what —are working together to reduce the impact on patients. it means to be unable to access a drug. I am aware that In order to address the issues with supply, the previous some pharmacists have had difficulties getting Femara, Government set up a ministerial summit in March but those difficulties have recently been greatly reduced 2010. A wide range of organisations and individuals following the expiry of the patent earlier this year. The participated, including those representing pharmacists, generic version of Femara is now widely available under wholesalers and doctors. The summit agreed a package the name letrozole. I know that it is of little consolation of tough actions to be taken forward in collaboration to the hon. Gentleman’s friend, but what it does mean is with the industry and other partners. This Government that other people will not have to go through the same have taken forward many of the actions proposed by heartache as that lady. the previous Government. We continue to work with all I am also aware of how frustrating it is when such parts of the supply chain to make sure it functions as problems occur with other drugs—not simply cancer well as possible through collaboration and collective drugs—because for people who need them at the time, agreement rather than by increasing the regulatory burden. they are equally important. The coalition Government Actions taken forward following the summit include: have already taken action and we will take further publishing updated guidance on the legal and ethical action if necessary. obligations placed on manufacturers, wholesalers, registered 569 Local Pharmacies24 NOVEMBER 2011 Local Pharmacies 570

[Mr Simon Burns] affect patient care. This allows us to work together to explore whether any action can be taken to reduce the pharmacies and others involved in the supply and trading impact on patients. of medicines in December 2010; publishing best practice The Department has also created a small buffer stock guidance agreed by stakeholders of the supply chain of some medicines to help manage shortages during clearly stating that under normal circumstances pharmacies pandemics and other emergencies. We are also taking should receive requested medicines within 24 hours—if action through the European Commission’s falsified all members of the supply chain followed this, patients medicines directive to strengthen the supply chain against might get medicines more quickly—and developing and the risk of counterfeit medicines. This aims to improve maintaining a list of products in short supply published the reliability of the medicines supply chain and to on the Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee’s respond to the increasing threat of falsified medicines website so that no one trading in these products can say entering it. that they are not aware of supply difficulties. As a direct result of the arrangements I have described, On top of that, MHRA site inspections and follow-up combined with the diligence and professionalism of the inspections have been conducted and progress has been majority of the supply chain, patients overwhelmingly made, including through written undertakings to comply have access to the right medicines in a timely and with the agency’s recommendations. To date, no breaches efficient manner. We are continuing to monitor the of the regulation have been established. situation very closely. Of course, we are not prepared to be complacent. That is why we are working so closely Huw Irranca-Davies: This is not a new phenomenon. and collaboratively with the supply chain, monitoring As the Minister said, the previous Government recognised and intervening as appropriate. it, set up the taskforce and introduced proposals on The hon. Gentleman’s intervention was about the which this Government are acting. The difficulty is that public service obligation. I am aware that some—like the system is not working properly, despite the best will him, and quite honourably—would prefer to see a public in the world. I understand the one in, one out rule and service obligation placed on the medicines supply chain the necessity to avoid an undue regulatory burden, but a to maintain supplies of medicines. As I have said, it is light-touch approach would be welcomed by most of already the case that manufacturers and distributors the industry. A manufacturer told me the other day that must ensure continuous supplies of medicines to meet he was producing 140% of the needs of the UK but patients’ needs. Failure to do so could put them at risk there was still a shortage of the drug that he was of regulatory action or criminal prosecution. supplying. Surely a patient service obligation would fit the bill by ensuring that certain things have to happen. Some other EU member states have a very precise It has been done in most other European countries. definition of how soon medicines should be received, but we are cautious about going down that road. It Mr Burns: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I would vastly increase regulation on the industry and will come to that point a little later in my remarks. drive up costs across the board. This is why, as I have said, we have chosen to go down the route of best As I was saying, exporting medicines is only one practice guidance instead. Best practice arrangements source of supply difficulties. Problems such as obtaining exist; they have been agreed with all parts of the supply raw materials or problems with manufacturing processes chain and they have been very successful in minimising can also cause supply problems. The increasing the impact of shortages. It is a much more flexible concentration of pharmaceutical manufacturing has approach in comparison with statutory regulation. made the situation worse. A medicine may be made only in one or two sites globally, which means that there In conclusion, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman is not much flexibility if problems are experienced at a for raising this issue—one that will be relevant to all particular factory or manufacturing site. Production Members across all party divides, as well as to every schedules have to be planned months in advance and if single community and individual person. It is an issue one company has a shortfall, suppliers of alternatives of true universal interest and concern. I assure the hon. may be unable to make up the shortfall at short notice. Gentleman that the coalition Government are absolutely committed to patients getting their medicines as quickly The current trend in the supply chain of pharmaceuticals as possible. We are also certain that in the supply of over the past few years is to move towards a “just in medicines, everyone in the supply chain has their part to time” set-up, which results in lower stocks of medicines play, including manufacturers, wholesalers, pharmacists, throughout all parts of the supply chain. This trend has prescribers and patients. The Government will continue resulted in significant savings, but requires more active to work closely with all those involved in the supply and reactive stock management. Again, the Government chain, making sure patients receive their medicines in a work closely with pharmaceutical companies, wholesalers, timely manner and without any unnecessary complications. pharmacists and the NHS and have well-established This is not an issue that will be discussed just once and procedures to manage these risks. then forgotten. We are determined to keep a watchful The Department of Health published joint best eye on the situation to see if there are ways to improve it practice guidelines with the Association of the British and minimise disruptions or problems for patients, ensuring Pharmaceutical Industry and the British Generic that they get the best service to which they are entitled. Manufacturers Association in January 2007. The guidance Question put and agreed to. gives companies advice on what to do in the event of a shortage and recommends early communication with 6.30 pm the Department about possible shortages that might House adjourned. 147WH 24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 148WH

Gary McKinnon, at an early stage. My hon. Friend has Westminster Hall already mentioned the issue of disparity. Does there not seem to be a self-evident statistical disparity? I understand Thursday 24 November 2011 that, in the past 40 years, three suspected terrorists were extradited from the United States to this country, in comparison with the situation facing Gary McKinnon, [ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] who is being prosecuted on the basis of alleged terrorism.

BACKBENCH BUSINESS Mr Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for that historical context, and I certainly accept it. It is important to have Extradition a practical, operational background about the numbers of cases, so that the debate does not become a dry, [Relevant document: Fifteenth Report from the Joint lawyer’s debate about the terms of the treaty or the Committee on Human Rights, Session 2010-12 HC 767] Extradition Act 2003. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting We have legislation in place to inject a dose of common be now adjourned.—(Bill Wiggin.) sense and discretion into the McKinnon case and other such cases. The Government ought to bring that into 2.30 pm force as a matter of priority. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): It is a I understand the US’s concern. I have spoken to tremendous pleasure and privilege to speak under your officials from the US embassy, and I understand their chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, for, I believe, the first time. concerns regarding the treaty’s operation. They make I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allocating quite strong arguments about the discrepancy between time for a debate on this subject in Westminster Hall. I the evidential thresholds. None the less, in the US’s welcome the presence and participation of the Immigration extradition treaty relations with, to name but a few, Minister and thank him in advance for engaging proactively Brazil, Mexico and Australia, the domestic authorities on such an important issue. in those countries have the right to decline extradition The Home Office is often berated for letting too in these and much wider circumstances. Why should many people into the United Kingdom, so it is something Britain, a stalwart ally, not request such a modest of a novelty for Ministers to face the reverse criticism. adjustment? Yet, as the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of The problems created by the European arrest warrant which I am a member, pointed out in its most recent have proven to be even more serious and far more report on extradition, there are flaws in and widespread widespread than those created by the US treaty. First, concerns about our extradition laws. There are concerns there are cases that are exemplified by the case of about the UK-US extradition treaty of 2003, in which Andrew Symeou. Andrew, a British student, was whisked paragraph 3(c) of article 8 sets different evidential thresholds off to Greece under a European arrest warrant for for the two countries. The United States did not ratify involvement in a fight at a night club that left another the treaty until 2007, but for clarity, my understanding man dead, which is a serious offence. Andrew was is that it has relied on the lower burden of proof extradited, despite eye-witness accounts that he was not available to it since 2004. at the club at the time. Lawyers can bicker about whether there is a substantive Fast-track European Union extradition is based on difference between the requirement that the US has to the assumption that standards of justice are adequate satisfy—the reasonable suspicion test—and the requirement across Europe. We all put our faith in that assumption, that the UK has to satisfy, which is showing probable but I am afraid that the Symeou case and many others cause. The fact is that, in operational terms, since 2004, show that that assumption is a sham and a fraud. We 24 Britons have been extradited to the United States cannot understand the operation of the EAW without under the new arrangements, and just one American understanding that fraud—the assumption that all the has been extradited to Britain. In practice, in the way justice systems operate to a similarly high standard. they affect our respective citizens, the arrangements have practically been all one way. Let us look at the Symeou case. Greek police beat The main problem, in my view—others will speak identical statements out of witnesses, which were then about the individual cases of their constituents—is the retracted. Andrew Symeou spent almost a year in squalid absence of any discretion to allow the UK to decline prison conditions before being bailed. He was left with extradition in cross-border cases, having taken into a flea-ridden blanket in a cell exposed to a sewer and account the interests of justice. That has been the crawling with cockroaches. He was abused by guards problem in the case of Gary McKinnon, which is and witnessed another prisoner being beaten to death equally, or more about the injustice in dispatching a for drug money. The trial proceeded at a snail’s pace, young man with Asperger’s syndrome hundreds of miles with court translators who spoke scant English. He was from home on allegations of computer hacking, when eventually cleared in June this year, after a two-year he was apparently searching for unidentified flying objects, ordeal, and he was left to re-build his life. than about the alleged offence or the evidential threshold. The independent Baker review, commissioned by the More misfit than terrorist, he should not be equated coalition to look into the operation of our extradition with some high-level al-Qaeda suspect or gangster. relations, makes absolutely no recommendations for preventing such horror stories being inflicted on other Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I innocent people—I use the word “innocent” advisedly, congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this incredibly although that was clearly the case for Andrew Symeou. important debate and on raising the case of my constituent, The Symeou case highlights the need for a higher evidential 149WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 150WH

[Mr Raab] courts that they were ready to prosecute: that this was not a hit and hope; they were trial ready. Yet six years threshold—a prima facie test—to militate against the after the alleged offence took place, Mr Turner has not risk that fast-track extradition goes ahead on manifestly been charged with any crime whatever. The extradition tainted evidence or spurious grounds. that threw his life into turmoil was little more than a hit The Baker report merely suggests that, over time and and hope fishing expedition. Again, the Baker report with effort, the justice systems and prison conditions remains oblivious, if not blind, to the basic injustice and across Europe will get better. All of us in the Chamber the human toll that that kind of ordeal takes on those may well hope for that, but that view is naive at best and affected. I am talking about not just the victims but the reckless at worst. I urge the Government to ignore that families. legalistic and simplistic analysis and think about what innocent people such as Andrew Symeou actually go Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I through in real life. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. During the course of his research, has he had the Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I am grateful to chance to look at the case of Babar Ahmad, who is a my hon. Friend for giving way on that point about my constituent of my right hon. Friend the Member for constituent. I, too, congratulate him on securing the Tooting (Sadiq Khan), the shadow Justice Secretary? debate. My right hon. Friend is in his place in this Chamber, but protocol restricts him from speaking in this debate. While in prison, many of Andrew Symeou’s human Babar Ahmad has been in detention for seven years. rights were fundamentally breached. Does my hon. Can the hon. Gentleman qualify the validity of the fact Friend agree that unfortunately, the Scott Baker report that Babar Ahmad has not been able to be extradited, clearly believes that, because there is mutual recognition deported or tried in the UK, but languishes in a detention and all EU members have signed up to the European centre? convention on human rights, we are not right to presume any fundamental breaches of human rights? Mr Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. I want to be careful about what I say about the Babar Mr Raab: That is exactly the point, and exactly why Ahmad case. We must bear in mind the fact that, the assumptions that underwrite the European arrest whatever the nature of the allegations—some of the warrant are fraudulent. I cannot think of any other way individuals in the cases that I have mentioned are plainly of putting it. and demonstrably innocent—we are dealing with that It is not good enough just to sit back and hit and basic principle of British justice that a person is innocent hope on the Greek justice system getting better. For one until proven guilty. We are losing sight of that in this thing, it may be getting worse. Transparency International’s country. Irrespective of the nature of the allegations corruption perceptions index is a well regarded measure against Babar Ahmad, and I do not deny for one second of standards of justice in national administration and that they are grave, the period of pre-trial detention is legal systems. On a score of one to 10—one being the unacceptably high and should be looked at carefully most corrupt—Greece has fallen from 4.2 to 3.5 in the within the scope of the UK-US treaty in relation to past 10 years. both the “most appropriate forum” safeguard and the Even if there were grounds for optimism that the other safeguards that might be available. Greek justice system would improve over time, which we all hope for, we need to protect our citizens right Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend now—not in five or 10 years’ time, but today. That is for securing this debate. I wonder whether it is helpful why we need an amendment to the European arrest to intervene on behalf of the Backbench Business warrant framework decision, a prima facie test, a Committee. As there is such enormous interest in this proportionality safeguard, and the other recommendations debate and in the issue of Babar Ahmad, we are more made by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. than happy to take further representations from other In fairness to the Baker review, it acknowledged the Back-Bench Members for time in the Chamber to return case for an amendment to the EAW to accommodate a to this subject in the event that all Members do not get proportionality test, which is one of the other crucial the chance fully to explore the issue today. safeguards that are required. However, in other areas, the report ignores, almost wholesale, major flaws in the Mr Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. current arrangements. It casually disregards evidence that shows that warrants are being issued for investigation Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The hon. rather than for prosecution. Lady has partly addressed my point. Given the number That important point is best illustrated by the evidence of hon. Members present today, does the hon. Gentleman given by Michael Turner to the Joint Committee. Michael not share my concern that this is a matter that should be Turner set up a property business in Hungary in 2005. debated on the Floor of the House? We need to debate When it failed, as some business ventures do, he paid off both this issue and the issue of Babar Ahmad, for which his staff, filed for bankruptcy and returned to Britain. an e-petition of more than 140,000 signatures was collected. Three years later, he was extradited to a Hungarian jail, accused of defrauding on certain administration fees. Mr Raab: Certainly, we need to have a debate in He was detained in a prison that was formerly run by Chamber time and on a votable motion. I hope that we the KGB. He has now been allowed to return home, but can deal with all the individual cases within the scope of he remains under investigation. At the time of the the broader policy issue about the UK-US treaty and extradition, the Hungarian authorities assured the UK the European arrest warrant. If there is enough support 151WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 152WH from hon. Members across the House, I will return to arrested at gunpoint. After a three-year legal ordeal, the Backbench Business Committee to seek what we French investigators finally dropped the case. Traumatised, originally asked for. Mrs Dark told the Joint Committee: “I had been walking around for over 20 years as a wanted Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): If we had a vote person and I did not know.” today, we would carry it, but of course we cannot have That major flaw would be remedied by the specific one because we are not in the main Chamber. I agree recommendations put forward by the Joint Committee, with my hon. Friends who have already expressed the which considered all such cases and looked at the view that we ought to have this debate in the House. The impact on the victims as well as taking advice on both Attorney-General, the Solicitor-General, the Deputy law and policy from a range of non-governmental Prime Minister and the Deputy Leader of the House all organisations. commented when they were in opposition that they There are many other victims, such as Edmond Arapi, supported what we are here today to do. Therefore, let and many other controversial cases, such as that of us get this debate into the main Chamber and then we Babar Ahmad. can carry the vote if they will deliver.

Mr Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman; I find myself Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I in the rare position of agreeing wholeheartedly with congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important him. debate and on raising the case of my constituent, Edmond Arapi. Mr Arapi was convicted in his absence of a murder that took place in Italy while he had evidence Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Don’t worry, that he was actually 1,000 miles away in Staffordshire it won’t last. Moorlands. He has since been fully cleared and is currently pressing for compensation. Does my hon. Mr Raab: I am sure that is correct. Friend agree that wherever there is a miscarriage of Going back to the Baker report and the issue of justice, compensation should be paid? It should be paid extradition under the European arrest warrant for the to compensate the Arapi family for their financial loss purposes of investigation rather than prosecution, the and the emotional trauma that they went through. report effectively denies that EAWs are being used in cases where there is “insufficient evidence”. That is an Mr Raab: I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. astonishing conclusion; it is really remarkable. It is just Compensation should be paid by the country that has one example of where the Baker review would have made the mistake. The Arapi case shows that a been assisted if it had interviewed the victims. It did not proportionality test, while important, is not the whole do that. However, under the chairmanship of the hon. game. A charge of murder is very serious; it is not a Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), the Joint Committee frivolous allegation. In that case, the facts were completely on Human Rights did, and we gleaned as a result not out of kilter with reality. A prima facie test and some of just the legal technicalities and the operation but the the other safeguards would enable a basic check to be human toll on those affected, particularly the innocent—but made before the extradition takes place or the process is actually everyone. If we stand up for the principles of completed. justice, we stand up for them across the board and the presumption of innocence is a cornerstone of British I want to leave time for other MPs to make speeches justice. on specific cases or on the wider policy issues at stake. I have just one final point about the European arrest The Baker review should have heard the personal side warrant. It is the most important point and it has been of the trauma endured by Michael and his family. raised by other Members. The EAW blindly assumes Instead, and this is really disappointing, Michael’s case mutual trust in the justice systems of many countries merely gets a solitary mention in a footnote at the deemed substandard if not rotten by the likes of bottom of page 279. The review’s response to the broader Transparency International and others, but because it issue of whether European arrest warrants are issued does so, innocent British citizens are also denied the full for investigations and not prosecutions is really to point protection of the Human Rights Act and the European out the blindingly obvious. It concludes that it should convention. For example, it is far harder for an innocent not happen under the terms of the framework decision, British national to cite disruption of family life, under but that will be no comfort to the Turner family, because article 8, as grounds for resisting extradition than it is it does happen and it is happening and it will happen for a foreign criminal to block deportation on the same again unless we put a check in place. grounds. That is a dangerous legal and policy discrepancy Either we can and should amend the Extradition Act that will damage public confidence in our justice system 2003 to make it explicit that extradition for investigation if it is not remedied. There are various flaws in the is barred or we need to pursue amendment of the current arrangements. As I mentioned earlier, I intend framework decision itself. Given that we do so on other to go back to the Backbench Business Committee to grounds, that would be a sensible course to take. ask for a debate in the Chamber on a voteable motion if On other occasions, the EAW system has proved there is sufficient support for it in our debate today. truly Kafkaesque for its victims. The case of Deborah I would be very grateful if the Minister could say Dark, a grandmother of two, best illustrates that. She what progress has been made in considering the conclusions gave evidence to our Committee. She was acquitted of of the Baker review and the recommendations of the drug offences in France more than 20 years ago. Without JCHR, as well as the views of the numerous non- telling her, the French prosecutors appealed and a two-year governmental organisations that have expressed an interest jail sentence was imposed in her absence. Seventeen in this subject. In particular, can he give any indication years later, on holiday in Turkey, she was stunned to be of when the Government are likely to make concrete 153WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 154WH

[Mr Raab] My hon. Friend mentioned that there were 140,000 signatures, and it would be easy to assume that many of proposals of their own? In my view, the hit-and-hope the people who supported the petition came from one counsel of the Baker review is just not good enough and particular community—the British Muslim community; I urge Ministers to be bolder than that. Protection of but is he aware, as I am, that many people across this civil liberties ought to be the glue of this coalition; it country who do not come from that background are ought to be an area of common ground. Indeed, it equally chilled by the experience of Babar Ahmad, ought to unite all parties and I am hugely pleased to see particularly as he has been held for seven years? so many Members from across the House, from all parties, including the smaller ones, in Westminster Hall Mr Slaughter: Indeed, and I will go on to discuss that today. point. We need to implement the recommendations of the JCHR covering both the European arrest warrant and Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Member for Esher and Walton the UK-US treaty, because at the end of the day we can (Mr Raab), who secured this debate, quite rightly concluded read the Baker review and judges and lawyers can all his remarks by saying that the fact that Babar Ahmad give their legal opinions, but as elected and accountable has been in prison for so long was damaging to the law-makers we in this House are charged with the duty image and traditions of British justice; that is absolutely of preserving British standards of justice and we have true. I think that the media have missed the point; the ultimate responsibility for protecting our citizens. perceptions, particularly in the Muslim community across the whole country, are that Babar Ahmad has been so Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Eleven hon. Members badly treated because of his faith and religion, suffering have indicated that they wish to speak in this debate. If terrible abuse as a result. I have had a large number of everyone can keep their remarks within 10 minutes, I contacts and e-mails from people who attend local hope that all Members will have the chance to speak. mosques, as well as from people who attend churches and other organisations, and who are deeply concerned 2.51 pm that somebody should languish for eight years in prison Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Thank on a case that cannot be brought to court in this you, Mr Rosindell. I will certainly keep within those country, all because of the very strange arrangement limits. I only want to make two points essentially, both that we have with the United States. Does my hon. relevant to the case of Babar Ahmad, which has already Friend agree that if we do not mend the arrangement, been raised, perhaps not surprisingly, in interventions this will be the image of British justice, not what we on the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), want it to be? who secured the debate. May I be the first to congratulate him on bringing a very important debate to this Chamber Mr Slaughter: As so often, I agree with everything with the hope, which I think has been generally expressed that my hon. Friend has said, and I will discuss the today, that there will be a subsequent debate in the main length of incarceration in a moment. However, I think Chamber in which more Members can take part? that my hon. Friend was also perhaps alluding to the circumstances of the treatment of Babar Ahmad: he I first became acquainted with the Babar Ahmad case was first arrested in 2003, and by the time he reached five years ago. Members of his family were constituents the police station he had sustained at least 73 forensically in my former constituency of Acton. I was going to say recorded injuries, including bleeding in his ears and former and subsequent constituency of Acton, but that urine. Six days later, he was released without charge. As would be to presume many things, including the actions we know, he was subsequently paid £60,000 compensation of the Boundary Commission and the electorate. With by the Metropolitan police for the assaults, although the Leader of the House here—he is still very well there was no apology and, I think, no admission. That thought of in that constituency, which is quite rare for a would be shocking enough in itself, but of course in Conservative—I will not presume in any way on those August 2004 Babar Ahmad was rearrested and he has lines. remained in custody ever since. The fact that my initial acquaintance with the Babar I am addressing my comments effectively to the text Ahmad case was five years ago speaks volumes in itself. of the petition, not to the offences alleged against Although I no longer represent that area, I still receive a Babar Ahmad but to the case that is being put by his great deal of correspondence about the case. Again, family and the 140,000 people who have signed the perhaps that is not surprising, given the fact that, as has petition, which I shall read as it is fairly short: already been indicated, more than 140,000 individuals have signed the e-petition specifically relating to the “Babar Ahmad is a British Citizen who has been detained in case. the UK for 7 years without trial fighting extradition to the USA under the controversial no-evidence-required Extradition Act I must pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member 2003. In June 2011, the Houses of Parliament Joint Committee for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), who represents the family of on Human Rights urged the UK government to change the law so Babar Ahmad and who I know has worked tirelessly that Babar Ahmad’s perpetual threat of extradition is ended with them, including Babar Ahmad’s father and other without further delay. Since all of the allegations against Babar family members who are present today, to ensure that Ahmad are said to have taken place in the UK, we call upon the British Government to put him on trial in the UK and support the case remains at the front of everyone’s mind. British Justice for British Citizens.” Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I am extremely That is the petition that has attracted 140,000 signatures. grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I too pay The word Kafkaesque is somewhat overused in the tribute to Babar Ahmad’s constituency MP, our right media and in Parliament too, but it probably does apply hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State for Justice. to this case, where somebody has been arrested and held 155WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 156WH in high-security prisons for seven years without—clearly— right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting and others any charge and without, as far as we are aware, any about how the case is proceeding—or rather not proceeding. intention by the British authorities to charge. Therefore, As things stand, more years could pass without resolution the petition asks that the British prosecuting authorities of the case, and we, as people who are here to protect take the lead and make a decision to go ahead and the constitution of this country, should all be deeply charge him here, if there is sufficient evidence to do so. ashamed of that. If nobody, including the Backbench The excellent report by the Joint Committee on Human Business Committee and the Leader of the House, is Rights that was published in June deals with many of able or prepared to deal with the matter, Members these issues; a key one is forum. We know that there is collectively should insist that it is debated and voted provision on the statute book that would allow a forum upon on the Floor of the House. test to be introduced. The introduction of such a test 3.1 pm would immediately deal with cases such as that of Babar Ahmad and resolve the issue. Again, I strongly Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I, too, congratulate believe that the House should have an opportunity to my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr make a decision on that matter if the Government are Raab) on securing the debate, which is a wonderful not prepared to make that decision. opportunity to put our cases. I am here to represent my constituent, Michael Turner, who lives in Corfe Castle Babar Ahmad’s situation is intolerable. It has been in south Dorset, who has for too long been the victim of described by one of the judges who considered the case an outrageous injustice in the form of the European as an “ordeal”. As I have already said, I am making no arrest warrant. Let us be clear from the outset that that comment at all, and indeed the petition makes no legislation, flawed though it is, was meant, as I understood comment at all, about the strength of the evidence it, to deal with terrorism and serious crime. about the nature of the offences, because that evidence has not been made publicly available. I am making a Michael’s story begins in 2002 when he and a friend comment that somebody—a British citizen—has spent set up a marketing company operating out of Budapest. seven years in high-security prisons without any charge Regrettably, it folded in 2004. The Hungarian authorities being brought against them. That fact alone should allege that the two men acted fraudulently, leaving shock all Members who are present in Westminster Hall customers out of pocket to the tune of £18,000—not a today. huge sum. The two men denied the charge of fraud, and still do. In November 2008, after Hungary had joined Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): My hon. Friend the EU and Britain had signed up to the European has stressed the fact that Babar Ahmad has been in extradition treaty, the authorities came for Michael. prison for seven years. I do not think that everybody Here in the UK, Michael fought extradition until who is concerned about his case recognises that that is 2009, when Mr Justice Collins overruled his appeal in the equivalent of the time served by someone sentenced the High Court and ordered the two men to hand to 14 years in prison. According to the sentencing themselves over to the Hungarian authorities. Michael’s guidelines, that is the kind of sentence issued to someone barrister, Hugh O’Donoghue, was “outraged” at the who is found guilty of grievous bodily harm, or carrying decision, believing that the European arrest warrant a weapon that they had previously brought to the scene, was incorrectly interpreted and used. On Monday 2 and so on. Normally, it would be very serious offences November 2009, Michael and his partner went to Gatwick that would acquire such a long time in jail. airport voluntarily, and were handed over to Hungarian special forces, who wanted to wear balaclavas to avoid Mr Slaughter: I entirely agree and that is why I say, being identified. The two men were assured that they notwithstanding the points that have been made about would be allowed to call home as soon as they arrived, the need to address the substantive issue as well as but no such call was forthcoming. They were refused individual cases, that Babar Ahmad’s case is unusual for bail on the ground that they would abscond—this when that particular reason. Although I have a great deal of they had gone to Hungary voluntarily—and they were respect and sympathy for other hon. Members who locked up, incommunicado, at a police station for three have spoken on behalf of their constituents, or about days before being moved to Veniga prison. other issues that have been raised with them, I do not Michael’s family had to find a Hungarian lawyer to believe that there is any case that is as extreme as Babar locate him. Even the Foreign Office did not know where Ahmad’s, because of the simple fact that somebody has he was, stating, in an e-mail to me, dated 4 November lost their liberty for that time, which—whatever the 2009, two days after Michael had been sent to Hungary: outcome—will never be regained. “We were not initially aware of the case as the Hungarian I conclude on the point that there seems to be general authorities had not been in contact to notify us of Michael agreement. The number of Members present shows that Turner’s detention.” this debate is worth while, and that it needs to go A judicial mess of scandalous proportions had begun, further if the Government are not prepared to act. I am but far worse was to follow. afraid that there has been some shuffling of responsibility Locked up in this former KGB jail on the outskirts of between the Backbench Business Committee and the Budapest, Michael was separated from his partner and Government, particularly in relation to the Babar Ahmad friend, and placed in a small cell with three other petition, which, with 140,000 signatures is, I think, one prisoners for 23 hours a day. Here he remained for the of the top three. We have had debates on the Floor of next four months, without charge. That in itself is surely the House on important issues that have arisen from a breach of human rights—and how often do we hear petitions with fewer signatures, so there is a clear case that expression? His initial request to call the consulate for Babar Ahmad’s detention to be debated there too. was refused. The authorities had to be reminded that a We can then see both from Members’ contributions and call to the consulate was a right, not a privilege. He was in a vote whether they feel the same antipathy as me, my allowed a one-hour visit per month and one shower per 157WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 158WH

[Richard Drax] the debate. He mentioned the well-known case of Gary McKinnon, and I want briefly to add my support to his week—he had to basin-wash in his cell for the other six cause. days. Having reading material, and receiving and sending That case, and some of the figures we have heard in letters, was made difficult for him, and he was continually the debate, show that we exist in an imbalanced relationship shouted at in a language he did not understand. with the United States. That is reinforced by the fact The appalling conditions soon began to wear him that the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister down, as I am sure we can all imagine. Soon, and were so reassuring on this case while in opposition, but inevitably, it was being suggested that if Michael pleaded now seem to feel at least that they do not have the power guilty his stay in prison would be shortened, but he or the authority to follow through with some of those rightly and bravely stayed silent. Anyway, why should reassurances. That has to be addressed. he plead guilty when he thinks, and is sure, that he is I am here to speak about a case that has already been innocent? mentioned briefly—that of a constituent of mine, Deborah Behind the scenes, many people were trying their best Dark. She was arrested in 1988 in France, on suspicion to help Michael, and I must pay tribute to the Earl of of drug-related offences, and held in custody for eight Dartmouth, a UK Independence party MEP, who visited and a half months. She was eventually found not guilty the prison, and Fair Trials International, which is doing by a French court, and was released and returned to the what it can to help. It seems extraordinary to me—and I UK, where she tried to get over the fact that she had am sure to all hon. Members present and to millions of wasted eight and a half months in jail. people in this country—that when so many illegal Nearly 20 years later, in 2007, Deborah travelled to immigrants cannot be extradited to their countries because Turkey for a holiday, but instead of being able to enjoy of their so-called human rights, it appears that a British it, as she would have expected, she found herself stripped citizen can be handed over almost on a whim. at gunpoint at the airport by Turkish police. According None of us is sure why Michael’s four-month to the police—whose behaviour, incidentally, was incarceration in that hellhole ended as abruptly as it unspeakably disgusting and life-changingly appalling—they did, but on the morning of 26 February 2010 the prison were acting merely on a tip-off from Interpol. That was door opened and Michael was free, with no explanation the only explanation she was given; they did not elaborate or apology, and still no charge. In April 2010, he returned in any way. voluntarily and very courageously to Hungary to answer As we would expect, Deborah wanted an immediate more questions. He was told that the police had interviewed explanation when she arrived in the UK. She called the more than 500 witnesses and that they needed more police and was told there was no outstanding arrest time for further investigations and interviews. It is thought warrant; they shrugged their shoulders. She asked the that if the case does get to court, it will take about a Serious Organised Crime Agency and was told it had year to cross-examine all the witnesses. no records on her either. Helpfully, it added that her Michael returned to the UK and there was still no arrest might have been a mistake. charge. This appalling case hangs over him like the Time passed and, with extraordinary calm, Deborah sword of Damocles. The emotional, physical and financial accepted that explanation. Then, in 2008, she travelled cost is hard to gauge; the distress has been appalling. to Spain to visit her father, who had retired there and Unable to move on with his young life, Michael waits who was unwell. She tried to return to the UK after her for Hungarian justice to take its course—a course that holiday, which lasted a few weeks, but she was arrested has seen my constituent subjected to imprisonment, at the airport. She was taken into custody by the Spanish psychological torture, huge expense, unrelenting stress authorities and told that she faced extradition to France. and an understandable loss of faith in this country’s That is when the penny began to drop. Seventeen ability to look after her own. Hungary’s judicial system years before, the French prosecutor had appealed the is not on a par with ours. It is primitive, bureaucratic verdict clearing Deborah. That happened without her and clearly unjust. In this country, as my hon. Friend knowledge. She had been found guilty, without anyone the Member for Esher and Walton said, someone is bothering to tell her. In her absence, she was sentenced innocent until proven guilty, but it would seem that that to six years. I repeat that she was never summoned to is not the case in Hungary. appear in court, never asked to defend herself and never Finally, I support my hon. Friend’s call for the given an opportunity to do so. She was never told that Government to strengthen the protection of our citizens her acquittal had been overturned; these things happened who are subject to extradition requests by implementing entirely without her knowledge. the recommendations of the report published in June That was in 1989. More than a decade later, the by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I am delighted French authorities issued their European arrest warrant, to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea meaning that EU member states were compelled to (Jane Ellison) that the Backbench Business Committee arrest Deborah and send her to France to serve the will be pushing hard to get the issue into the main sentence. As it happens, she refused to consent to Chamber, so that we can continue to debate this crucial the extradition and was granted an extradition hearing. and essential point. Fortunately, the Spanish court chose not to extradite her, on the basis that so much time had passed and she was unlikely to get a thorough, proper or fair trial. 3.8 pm After one month in custody, she was released from Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Thank you prison, and she returned home. However, it was not over. very much, Mr Rosindell, for allowing me to sneak in at When Deborah arrived in the UK, she was arrested the last minute. I congratulate my hon. Friend the by the British police at Gatwick airport. Again, she Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) on securing refused to consent to extradition, and she was released 159WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 160WH on bail, pending another hearing. In 2008, extradition talk about the practical ways in which European arrest was again refused, for the same reason—the passage of warrants can be improved to ensure that they are issued time. in proper circumstances, are based on evidence and Despite being cleared by two courts, however, Deborah include safeguards. Thirdly, I want to touch on the remained subject to the European arrest warrant in recommendations of the Joint Committee on Human other EU states until 2010, when the French finally Rights, which has looked at the issue in depth. I urge withdrew it. Until that moment, she was, in effect, the Government to accept those recommendations. trapped in the UK and unable to visit her family in I am surprised that action on these matters has been Spain for more than three years, all because of a conviction delayed. When Ministers and other Government Members that she was never allowed to contest. were in opposition, and these issues were discussed, I have chosen to speak about Deborah not only they objected vigorously to them. In fact, the Deputy because her case is horrific and she is my constituent, Prime Minister described the USA-UK extradition treaty but because there are hundreds of examples of the as “lop-sided”. As my hon. Friend the Member for European arrest warrant failing. Julian Assange, the Bolsover (Mr Skinner) said, many eminent members of boss and founder of WikiLeaks, is a well-known figure. the Government were critical of the provisions and He faces extradition to Sweden, despite the fact that he opposed them. I am surprised that changes have not has not been charged anywhere or for anything, and been made, given that the Government have been in despite the fact that the extradition is being demanded power for 18 months. by a private prosecutor, described as a partisan Sir Scott Baker is not correct when he states that the prosecutor—in other words, they are not a member of treaty has not operated unfairly. A key difficulty is that the national judiciary or a formal representative of the UK nationals cannot test the veracity of the evidence state. being used to seek their extradition. However, a US The system clearly needs changing, and it needs citizen facing extradition to the UK can challenge and changing soon, because the number of such cases is test the evidence produced to extradite them. That is rising. One thousand people were subjected to the European one reason why so few US citizens have been extradited arrest warrant last year, and the figure grows every to this country. They are therefore able effectively to month. A remedy suggested by Fair Trials International challenge the evidence presented to them, when we are would involve applying the principle of mutual recognition not. to the European arrest warrant. That would mean that Another argument, which Sir Scott Baker also uses, is once one member state had refused to execute a European that the treaty is not unfair to UK citizens, but why was arrest warrant, as happened with Deborah, it would there a need to negotiate a separate treaty with specific automatically be withdrawn, along with any alerts on provisions with the USA? We have treaties with other EU and international police databases. That remedy countries that do not have such provisions, and those would have prevented Deborah from being subjected to treaties require a greater burden of proof before people her grim groundhog-day experience. are extradited to those countries. One alternative that has been proposed—including, I In my previous life as a prosecutor, I would toddle off believe, by Fair Trials International—is that we raise the to Bow Street magistrates court—it has now closed—to bar to capture only the most serious cases, and I certainly try to get extradition warrants. The documents I presented go along with that. As my hon. Friend the Member for included information about the exact nature of the Esher and Walton said, that is what this tool was charges; the indictment had to state specifically what originally designed for. I am sure there are alternatives, the offences were for which the person was being extradited. but I am no expert, and it is for the Government to The documents also had to include the evidence being identify the most appropriate steps. What is certain, used to back the application. Furthermore, a senior however, is that the system needs radical and rapid member of the Crown Prosecution Service had to certify reform to prevent such appalling abuses from happening that that was proper evidence and that there was a again. proper case for extradition. Finally, as soon as the person was extradited to the 3.13 pm UK, committal proceedings had to commence immediately, and all the paperwork and evidence had to be served on Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I congratulate the person. That ensured that somebody who was extradited the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) on to the UK was tried expeditiously.None of those guarantees securing the debate. I also congratulate the Backbench is being given to UK citizens. Why are British nationals Business Committee on allowing it. I hope there will be being given less favour than US citizens? It is completely a more detailed debate on the Floor of the House. wrong that the Government are still set on this course I want to talk about the UK-USA extradition treaty and have not changed the provisions. and the European arrest warrant not because I have On the European arrest warrant, I do not have an constituents who have been affected by them, but objection to the fact that it exists; my concern is how it because—I suppose I have to declare an interest here—I is used in practice. When somebody has been extradited am a lawyer who has dealt with criminal cases and who to another country, it often takes time to see whether has an interest in human rights generally. the warrant has been applied wrongly, as in the case Like other hon. Members, I accept that we need mentioned by the hon. Member for Richmond Park extradition proceedings and a European arrest warrant. (Zac Goldsmith). In that case, the warrant was wrongly What we are concerned about, however, is how those issued in France; the authorities had not realised that provisions are used in practice. I want to talk, first, the person against whom it had been issued was unaware about the UK-USA extradition treaty, which was signed of the fact that there had been an appeal against their under the previous Government. Secondly, I want to acquittal and that they had been convicted. Such negligence 161WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 162WH

[Yasmin Qureshi] said, that is comparable to a 14-year prison sentence, whereas if what is alleged against him had been proved, and such errors will occur, so I ask the Government to it might have carried only five or six years maximum. reconsider negotiating the basis on which European He has thus effectively served a sentence. arrest warrants are issued. The important thing in that case, and in those of The state should issue much stricter rules and guidelines Gary McKinnon and others, is that the evidence apparently to courts and judges on when to issue arrest warrants. being used against them was found by the British authorities. For example, the evidence should be available, the person That is especially true in Babar Ahmad’s case: when he should be dealt with and looked after properly, and was arrested there were supposed to be allegations, there should be procedural safeguards. Those are the information or evidence against him, which form the things that are required—as well as that the offences on basis of the extradition case. If that evidence is so which people are extradited must be serious, not minor. cogent and good, there is nothing to stop the British Also, it should be possible to withdraw arrest warrants. authorities prosecuting Babar Ahmad in England. If I understand that in Poland once a warrant has been that is not happening, there is a reason for it, which is issued it is impossible to withdraw it. presumably the fact that there is insufficient evidence against him. I worked in a prosecuting authority for Jeremy Corbyn: I understand the point that my hon. about 10 years, and if there was evidence we would Friend makes, but is not the real problem the completely prosecute. If there was not, we did not. In my opinion, different standards of the legal systems across the European that explains what is now happening. Union, and, indeed, the Council of Europe area, which, I understand the sensitivities of the USA because of together with the virtual automaticity of the European the problems that it has had, but those sensitivities arrest warrant, mean that we just mask the inadequacies should not mean that the liberties and rights of British of the current system and many people suffer miscarriages nationals should be put aside for the interests of another of justice? foreign state that will not give reciprocal rights. The USA may have its own political agenda, and its own Yasmin Qureshi: I agree, and that issue highlights the agenda as to why it wants Mr Ahmad. If the extradition importance of how arrest warrants are implemented. goes through, Babar Ahmad will probably spend the Procedural safeguards must be put in place. There must rest of his life in solitary confinement or in high-security be stringent requirements. Warrants must not be handed prisons in the USA, so his life will be destroyed. I out as a matter of course, so that someone can come to therefore urge the Government to rethink the issue of court and say, “I want an arrest warrant,” without the forum provision and allowing our judges to decide anyone looking properly into what has occurred. In our whether cases should be tried here. In cases where there country, when police officers go to court to ask for is evidence against someone, our prosecuting authorities arrest warrants, the magistrates, or the judge, look at should be the ones to try them. what is presented to them and then they might agree to those things. In a nation state such as England, someone 3.25 pm who is arrested in Watford, for example, knows that their case can be resolved quite quickly if there are Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): What procedural irregularities. Errors can be sorted out quickly. has today’s debate in Westminster Hall—on a matter However, in a foreign country—with a foreign language, worthy, as other hon. Members have said, of debate in jurisdiction and everything else—it is not as easy to sort the main Chamber—to offer? There has been a review out mistakes. It may take months. That is why it is so by eminent lawyers and judges, who after consideration important that warrants should be issued properly in have given their weighty views on extradition. One the first place, using strict procedures. outcome of the review—unintended, I hope—has been, The Joint Committee on Human Rights has presented certainly according to commentators, to pit judges against some good, practical solutions that will help British politicians, in what is almost a parody of self-serving, nationals. It has suggested the forum provision, which lobbied politicians and venerated, balanced judges with would allow British judges to decide whether an individual their measured approach. On that basis, there is no case should be tried in this country, or whether there is a contest, and the Government should simply follow the need for extradition. The cases of Babar Ahmad and recommendations in the weighty report. Gary McKinnon and others have been mentioned, and It seems to me that, on a cross-party basis, we all say one interesting thing about all those people is that their no to that. The Attorney-General has made it clear that alleged offences are deemed to have occurred in this the report is offering guidance, and that is all. It is for country. What is wrong, therefore, with our prosecuting Government and, as we will say loud and clear today, them? Why cannot our prosecuting authorities do it? If for Parliament, to set the clear parameters of extradition. there is evidence, they should be prosecuted. No one We should not lightly discount the strong views of says that the people concerned should not be prosecuted. Parliament. The June report from the Joint Committee We all believe that if there is evidence against someone on Human Rights has been mentioned, and it should be there should be a prosecution. given due consideration, as should previous parliamentary From what I have been reading about the case of votes on forum and the many previous debates. Babar Ahmad—he is not my constituent, and I recognise The problem with the review is that it seems to betray the hard work done on his behalf by my right hon. a lack of appreciation of the shared responsibility that Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan)—what he we have for extradition. It is an issue for politicians, did is supposed to have occurred in this country, and he Government and Parliament, not so much through has effectively spent nine years in prison. As my hon. party politics—the parties are properly reflected across Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) the debate today—or through the activity of the lowest 163WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 164WH form of lobby-fodder, whether domestically or had considered the medical evidence, I would defy it not internationally on the sidelines of summits: the issue to see Gary McKinnon’s case as an example of how involves politics because extradition is the shared woefully we have let down British citizens time and responsibility of accountable, elected politicians, who again, as we have heard today. safeguard, together with the judiciary, the rights of UK Gary McKinnon’s case is an example of the problem citizens, in relation to liberty and security. The fact that with extradition law, and it continues to highlight what extradition involves the surrender of the liberty of an the Baker review missed. Lessons to be learned from his individual, and giving up that citizen to the full force of case include, first, the need for proper judicial oversight the law of another country, must involve politicians as a to avoid undue political influence. We saw through matter of principle. Wikileaks how previous Prime Ministers effectively used The review relies heavily on the argument about the Gary McKinnon as a political pawn in meetings with risk of costs, complications and delays. We need to rise the United States. A forum bar would give courts the to meet the challenge by ensuring that we have an proper opportunity to make a judgment about the efficient but fair and just extradition system, with the interests of justice, consider proportionality and medical appropriate safeguards. Not to do so is to abdicate our evidence and make the right decision. responsibilities. Indeed, it is that abdication, because of Secondly, prosecution authorities in dual criminality inadequate legislation under the previous Government, cases need to be able properly to consider whether on which prosecutions, courts and politicians followed enough transparent information has been passed between through, that has led to an unfair and inefficient extradition jurisdictions to account for the fullness of criminality, system. It was a profound cause of the nightmare of my in order to determine the best venue for prosecutions. constituent Gary McKinnon. I commend the Home Thirdly, we need an Executive safeguard with appropriate Secretary, however, for being the first Home Secretary judicial involvement and a shared responsibility to have to take responsibility, remove the matter from the courts’ better clarity and focus, in order to allow the Home hands, and review the medical evidence. Secretary to recognise her responsibility in terms of I pay tribute to Gary McKinnon’s mother, Janice extradition—that might be in terms of human rights, or Sharp, who this week, quite properly, was awarded the it might have to do with intelligence that comes to light Liberty “Close to Home” award for her passionate and in this or other countries—and make the right decision. sustained campaign for her son, and her campaign to That is necessary so that we can respect the rule of law, reform extradition for the sake of other UK citizens. as I am sure Members across the House want to do, and The Baker review made reference to Gary McKinnon’s the idea of an accountable Executive and Parliament. case, but I believe it was misrepresented. The reality of We must also not ignore the treaty. British citizens in the situation that he faces was not reflected in the this country were sold down the river by the negotiations. somewhat dismissive, even cynical, comments about Why have the Netherlands and Israel, for example, been him. He has in effect been on bail for 10 years. That able to negotiate agreements with the United States that must be one of the most unwanted records for any any of their citizens extradited to the US and convicted British citizen in this country. Normally, we would only there will be repatriated and sentenced in their home find such a situation under a despotic regime like Burma’s, country? We do not have such an agreement. We must not in Britain, the home of the rule of law. rely on assurances, promises and hope. We must recognise that Gary McKinnon’s life has This is an issue of responsibility that includes a a reality not reflected in weighty tomes. He lives in a question of trust. Strong words have been said over largely hidden world, in a permanent state of fear. It is a number of years on behalf of my constituent, including fear not of justice—he has always been open and willing by Ministers before the election. The Prime Minister to face justice in this country, including prosecution said: and, if appropriate, sentencing—but of extradition. His “Gary McKinnon is a vulnerable young man and I see no Asperger’s syndrome and mental illness put him in a compassion in sending him thousands of miles away from his 24-hour nightmare of anxiety, depression and suicide home and loved ones to face trial. If he has questions to answer, risk. As I said to the Prime Minister in a question there is a clear argument to be made that he should answer them earlier this year, his life is hanging on a thread. I did not in a British court. This case raises serious questions about the exaggerate his case then, and I do not now. Gary workings of the Extradition Act, which should be reviewed.” McKinnon will not be extradited to the States because, That was relevant in 2009, and it is relevant in 2011. as I am reliably informed, if a final decision were made The Minister present, after I raised my urgent question to extradite him, he would take his life. Hon. Members during the previous Parliament, said need not take my word for it; they can take the word of “is it not a breach of his human rights to send a man with his doctors. Asperger’s and depression to face a possible 60-year sentence?...It The medical evidence was not considered by the is, of course, horribly ironic that it would be illegal to send Baker review. Obviously, it was not within the review’s someone to another country to face an explicit death sentence.”— primary remit, but the review has misrepresented Gary [Official Report, 1 December 2009; Vol. 501, c. 978.] McKinnon’s position. I must make it clear that the Let Gary McKinnon be a living and last reminder of review has no direct relevance to his future; that is being how we have reformed extradition, not a dead reminder considered by the Home Secretary, on the basis of the of how we have failed British citizens. medical evidence before her, to establish whether his human rights are being breached. However, without 3.34 pm sight of that compelling medical evidence, which I have seen, and an appreciation of the evident breach of Gary Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): It is a McKinnon’s human rights, it is not possible for the pleasure to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. review to represent his case fairly. If the Baker review I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Esher 165WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 166WH

[Sir Menzies Campbell] but in the laws of each state, habeas corpus occupies exactly the same important position, as my hon. Friend and Walton (Mr Raab) on securing it. Like others, I suggests. believe that this debate should be held in the main I fancy that there is not much patience in the Chamber Chamber. We are discussing fundamental constitutional for an analytical exercise in the interpretation of the rights. There is only one forum where those rights Baker report, but in order to provide some further should be discussed, and that is the Floor of the House reading to Members who have not yet had the opportunity of Commons. The Leader of the House was with us a to do so, I refer them to part 7, pages 231 to 243, little while ago, and I have no doubt that he heard what paragraphs 728, 729, 735, 739 and 742, the burden of many Members said, but I shall make a point of going which is that the Baker report concluded that there was to see him after this debate to reinforce the view that the no significant difference between “reasonable suspicion,” Chamber is the place for such issues. which is the standard applicable in the United Kingdom I first took an interest in these matters in July 2006, under the treaty, and “probable cause,” which is the when at Prime Minister’s questions in two consecutive standard necessary in the United States and which is weeks, I sought to interrogate Tony Blair. I said then enshrined in the fourth amendment to the United States what I say now: the extradition treaty with the United constitution. States puts United Kingdom citizens in a position of I have the misfortune to disagree with the conclusions disadvantage compared with their US counterparts. It of the Baker report. I believe that probable cause is a is implied that the United States embraced the treaty, requirement that has to be met before any United but that is not true. The Senate waited until autumn Kingdom citizen should be extradited to the United 2006 before ratifying it. The purported reason was that States. Why do I believe that? Because before surrendering the strength of the Irish lobby in the United States was a British citizen to a foreign jurisdiction, the state—our such that senators were concerned that the treaty, if state—should reasonably require to ensure that there is ratified, might cause alleged terrorists from Ireland in a case requiring to be answered, not a suspicion. To the United States to be extradited to the United Kingdom. borrow an illustration from my own experience as a The treaty did not have an immaculate conception. prosecutor and from domestic law on both sides of the The treaty is wrong in principle. Extradition is based border, suspicion justifies arrest, but suspicion does not on the principle of reciprocity. For a state to give up one justify charge or prosecution. Probable cause, in my of its citizens to another jurisdiction can be justified view, is necessary before prosecution can be justified. only by the confident knowledge that citizens of both I think that my argument is underpinned by the states have equal rights. I know that, here in the United conclusions of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Kingdom, the representatives of the United States have to which reference has already been made. It concluded, some reservations about what I and others are saying rather as I have suggested, that it is necessary that the today. They need have no anxieties. I wish not for a standard of proof on both sides of the Atlantic should levelling down but a levelling up. I seek equivalence, not be the same. Those arguments are properly set out on exceptionalism. page 4 of the report. That the issue might require adjustment of the treaty was recognised by the Committee, I have sought to test the integrity of my position by whose Chair, the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), asking myself what a United States member of Congress is present, and by Baroness Neville-Jones, who gave would do if the positions were reversed. We all know evidence on behalf of the Government and who appeared that such is the strength of feeling on Capitol hill about to be optimistic that adjustment could be achieved. such issues that, if United Kingdom citizens were in a I am persuaded by one other element of the consideration better constitutional position than Americans, there is of these matters. There is a considerable predisposition no member of Congress who would not seek, as we do, on the part of the courts of the United States to invoke to protect their own citizens. One thinks, for example, of extraterritorial jurisdiction to an extent that we simply Robert Byrd, the longest serving senator in the history do not apply in this country. We have, therefore, in of the United States and a constitutional expert to his practice, no reciprocity in the application of extraterritorial fingertips. Faced with the situation that we face, I have jurisdiction. It is my view, however, that if the significant absolutely no doubt how vehement and articulate his difference in the approach in the United States is, as we opposition would be. know, common, that is all the more reason that the standards of proof should be equivalent. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Does my right hon. Let me deal quickly with three further issues. First, and learned Friend agree that it is precisely because of on the matter of forum, it is surely correct in principle the traditions of jurisprudence and respect for habeas that there should be an effective statutory presumption corpus in both the United Kingdom and the United that a case be tried in the country where the crime is States that it is extremely important that we work committed, and that only in the most special circumstances together to level up the rules on extradition, as he says, should there be a departure from that principle. Secondly, so that we can send a message to other countries that on legal representation—this is also recognised by the are trying to achieve the same level of justice to which JCHR—someone who is being sought to be extradited we have aspired and that we are achieving? needs good representation not just in this country, but in the country to which they are extradited. We know Sir Menzies Campbell: I agree entirely. I can say this that the availability of public funds, or indeed of public as a Scots lawyer, because we have a civil law rather than defenders, is to different standards in different states of a common law system: one important export, even as the United States. long ago as our colonisation of the United States, was Finally, on the application of the Human Rights Act the common law. Habeas corpus is a fundamental principle 1998, which is, of course, a statutory requirement for of the law in the United States. Not only in federal law the Home Secretary, I do not believe that there is any 167WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 168WH justification for the Baker committee’s recommendation 3.47 pm that the Home Secretary’s authority on that should Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): It is a pleasure be transferred to the legal system. Baker says that to follow the right hon. and learned Member for North there should be a removal because of delay being East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). We both appeared caused if it is invoked and because determination of before the Backbench Business Committee in support extradition should be exclusively a judicial process. of the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), That, I think, fails to understand the nature of extradition, with the full support of my right hon. Friend the Member notwithstanding the detailed historical analysis that the for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who is the Chair of the Baker report contains. Extradition is diplomatic in the Home Affairs Committee. I congratulate the hon. Member first instance. It becomes judicial and ultimately it is for Esher and Walton on securing this important debate political. on extradition. I speak as Chair of the Joint Committee In exercising that power, the Home Secretary is not on Human Rights and am very pleased to fully support acting ultra vires; she is exercising the power conferred the hon. Gentleman. He is a member of my Committee, on her by Parliament—the same sovereign Parliament and I am delighted that he has strongly supported its that resolved that other parts of the procedure should unanimous and wise recommendations. be exercised by the courts. I see nothing wrong in It is almost a year since the Committee announced principle with the Home Secretary exercising a power our inquiry into extradition. The Baker review began a conferred on her by Parliament additional to the powers couple of months before our inquiry. My Committee’s of the court. Parliament has chosen not to grant exclusive intention was not so much directly to influence that jurisdiction in matters of extradition to the courts, as separate process, but to set out for Parliament the Parliament is entitled to do. The truth is that the Home human rights implications of current extradition policy, Secretary is exercising an administrative function in so that a more informed discussion could take place furtherance of the duties incumbent on her by the when the findings of the Baker review emerged. That Human Rights Act. has now happened and this debate is, I hope, just one It has been suggested that it would perhaps be helpful part of that informed discussion. As many hon. Members if the considerations that the Home Secretary is obliged have said, we hope that discussion will continue and to take into account were more fully described in legislation, take place somewhere more appropriate. I will say something such as the health of the person being considered for about that in a moment. extradition, which is relevant to the speech we heard a It is disappointing that this debate is taking place in moment ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Westminster Hall. It seems to suggest that human rights Southgate (Mr Burrowes), the impact on family life, the issues are, somehow or other, not mainstream or important quality of treatment that a person might receive in the but peripheral, or that extradition is a small matter penal system, and, of course, the proportionality of the affecting very few people, most of whom appear to be likely sentence that might be imposed. deserving of whatever treatment they suffer in the countries to which they are extradited. That is not the case. We all Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I thank know the cases that have attracted, quite rightly, a great my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way and my deal of public attention: Gary McKinnon in terms of hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr the UK-US extradition treaty, and Julian Assange in Raab) for securing this debate. We have talked a lot terms of the European arrest warrant. I should place on about extradition treaties between the USA and the record my gratitude, as Chair of the Joint Committee UK, and the European arrest warrant. Does my right on Human Rights, for the way in which so many hon. hon. and learned Friend agree that there is a case for Members today have spoken up in support of their own looking at extradition treaties with countries in category constituents. 2 territories, such as South Africa, where my constituent, There are many less well-known cases that deserve Shrien Dewani, may face trial, and at considerations attention. There are cases that include flagrant injustice, such as the health of the person and whether they will unfair treatment and even mistaken identity, as we have face a fair trial, given, in the case of my constituent, the already heard. My Committee was privileged to hear high media coverage that his case has received in the the moving evidence given by many of the people country to which he may be extradited? involved, such as Andrew Symeou, Deborah Dark and Edmond Arapi. Nor are we dealing with only a handful Sir Menzies Campbell: My hon. Friend underlines of cases. In 2009-10, 699 UK citizens were surrendered the need for the Home Secretary to have the jurisdiction to other European Union countries under the European and the discretion that the law presently allows. It is a arrest warrant alone. powerful argument in support of the view that that I must emphasise that human rights are massively discretion should remain. important. This is a human rights debate, and debates I have not sought to deal with any particular case or on human rights should attract the attention of as set of circumstances, but my interest in this matter was many hon. Members as possible, and should be a matter first aroused by the case of the NatWest three, one of for the main Chamber. It is very gratifying, as a number whom, Mr Gary Mulgrew, was a constituent of mine. I of Members have already said, to see so many Members think that one has to be careful about changing the law here today supporting human rights. Extradition engages in response to particular cases—there is an old legal a number of different human rights: article 3, prohibition dictum that hard cases make hard law—but today this is of torture, or inhuman or degrading treatment; article an opportunity to define principle, and I for one am 5, right to liberty and security; article 6, right to a fair delighted that so many Members have chosen to be trial; article 8, right to respect for private and family present for that purpose. I look forward to the occasion life; and article 14, prohibition of discrimination. We when we have a resolution on the Floor of the House to have heard many examples of what we would consider which we can give effect. breaches of those human rights this afternoon. 169WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 170WH

[Dr Hywel Francis] The Baker review has now reported. It might seem churlish to take issue with a review that seems to be so Extradition agreements are vital, and this country comprehensive, but many members of my Committee, has benefited from agreements that enable us to bring and I am one of them, are disappointed to note that in foreign citizens or absconders to justice here in the UK. many areas the review has not drawn the same conclusions Citizens of one state must not be immune from the laws as the Committee’s report. However, we are encouraged of another. If you are accused of a crime, you must face that the review supports my Committee’s conclusion justice, and it may be right to do so in the state where about the need for better legal representation for those the crime was committed. However, does our shared subject to extradition proceedings. Likewise, the review common legal framework and belief in human rights finds that any future amendment to the framework mean that we can rely on the operation of justice decision underpinning the EAW should include a equally across Europe or, indeed, across the world? proportionality test to be applied in the issuing state. We cannot take comparable standards of justice for That broadly echoes a recommendation from our report. granted. Our inquiry showed that although the European The Baker review also came to similar conclusions to arrest warrant has brought benefits in terms of a quicker, my Committee on the issues of excessive pre-trial detention, more streamlined system of justice in Europe, it does maintaining current limits at the discretion of the Secretary not have the right safeguards to guarantee human rights of State, with sentences served in the UK for those protection; nor does the US-UK bilateral extradition whose custodial sentences are 12 months or less. That treaty, as we have already heard. It is an important gives the Committee some hope that there might be feature of our system that some rights may be qualified, areas where the Government can move more quickly and that there is a just and proportionate balance when consensus suggests a clear and simple path. I do between the interests of the state and the interests of the not intend to analyse or criticise the review on areas individual; for example, in freedom from discrimination, where its conclusions differ from those of my Committee. and the right to privacy and family life. We may decide to revisit the whole area in the light of the review’s findings. Some rights engaged by extradition are the most fundamental: liberty and security, and the right to a fair Unfortunately, the Baker review and my Committee’s trial—both of which are only qualified in times of war report diverge on some of the most important aspects or public emergency—and freedom from torture, or of extradition, such as forum, the requirement for a inhuman and degrading treatment. That is, of course, prima facie case, and the fairness of what seemed clearly an absolute non-derogable right. Our Committee’s report to the Committee to be an unbalanced US-UK treaty. It highlighted areas where human rights are at risk, and is gratifying to hear so many hon. Members supporting set out the changes that would provide the robust my Committee’s position, rather than the Baker review. protection needed. First, we said that Parliament should Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): On the be asked to commence the “most appropriate forum” point about the forum bar and the other test that the safeguard in the Police and Justice Act 2006. That hon. Gentleman has described, one of the criticisms of would require the judge to consider whether it is in the that in the panel was that, in addition to adding extra interest of justice for the individual to be tried in the cost, it would delay the process. Does his Committee requesting country, and to refuse the extradition request have a view, where extradition is justified, about whether if it is not. There should be a requirement to show a having those safeguards would in any way impede that prima facie case, or a similarly robust evidential threshold, process? which would mean that a court could refuse extradition if it was not satisfied that a country had shown that Dr Francis: I am sure my Committee has a view. I am there was a case to answer. A proportionality principle a bit anxious not to get involved in individual cases, but should be added to the EAW, to ensure that the human as I have already indicated, my Committee is strongly in rights implications of extradition are not disproportionate support of the principle of extradition. What we are to the alleged crime. debating today are the flaws and weaknesses in the The Government should ensure that the human rights processes. The Government have a unique opportunity bar is effective in practice as well as in law. Although the to address the issue, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady bar requires the judge to consider whether extradition is for the points that she has made. compatible with the human rights of the individual I wish to probe the Government on their intentions, concerned, the threshold set by case law here is very as do many hon. Members here today, and on the high indeed, allowing material such as reports of the timeline for decisions to be made in this area. I have no UN Committee against Torture to be regarded as evidence doubt that the Government may well hurry a little more of possible human rights abuses. That would strengthen if we have the opportunity to debate the matter in the protection. Chamber. Access to legal representation needs to be reviewed. When the Baker review reported, my Committee Present provision is patchy and often woefully inadequate. agreed that I should write to the Home Secretary to We need to ensure that other EU member states do not seek information about when the Government would use the EAW for purposes of investigation—or, as some respond to the review and to my Committee’s report. hon. Members have already said, fishing expeditions— This week, we received a reply that was broadly unhelpful: rather than trial. Finally, in relation to the notoriously a response will be made “as soon as practicable”. Can asymmetrical UK-US extradition treaty, the Government the Minister give some sense of what that expression should level the playing field. The proof required when means? extraditing a person to the US must be raised to the The Attorney-General was asked about the review same standard as that required when extraditing from and its findings in the main Chamber last week. When the US to the UK. he referred to them as “guidelines”, there was some 171WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 172WH speculation that he was implying that the Government The situation has long troubled me: in principle, if were distancing themselves a little. That may or may not people commit an offence in this country, they should be the case, but can the Minister spell out whether, be prosecuted in this country. Many of us feel that way. when the Government consider the review’s findings, According to paragraph 4 of article 8 of the treaty on they will also be considering not only my Committee’s extradition with the States: report, which comes to different conclusions in some “If the offense has been committed outside the territory of the areas, but other important reports, which have been Requesting State, extradition shall be granted in accordance with mentioned this afternoon, by such bodies as Justice and the provisions of the Treaty if the laws in the Requested State Fair Trials International? provide for the punishment of such conduct committed outside It would be good to hear from the Minister that the its territory in similar circumstances.” Government consider the matter urgent, and as far as Perhaps I am an old-fashioned lawyer—that is my we are concerned, judging by the strength of unanimous background and training—but I feel deeply that the feeling this afternoon, it is urgent. Some changes can be right forum for prosecution in such a case is in the UK made quickly, even if others might take longer to decide and that people in this country should be tried by their upon and resolve. The rights of our citizens must be peers. Perhaps I am old-fashioned, perhaps it is our protected against the sorts of injustice that have traumatised jurisprudence and long legal tradition, but that is how I so many people and their families, many of whom gave feel, as so many of us do. evidence to our inquiry. [MR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] Chris Bryant: One area in which we in this country have changed direction slightly in the past few years—rightly so, and I suspect the hon. Gentleman would agree with 4.1 pm me—is sexual offences, possibly committed in a country Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Welcome to the Chair, such as Thailand by a British national, that might not Mr Leigh. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member be prosecuted in Thailand, but could be in this country. for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) on securing an extraordinarily important debate and the Backbench Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman makes the Business Committee on doing such great work to ensure case for the extradition of a British citizen to another our chance to have this discussion. I want to keep my jurisdiction where the offence was committed and, arguably, remarks brief, because so much has been said in the if a sexual offence was committed in Thailand, the right evolving consensus of the debate. In particular, I pay forum for the case would be where the offence took tribute to the hon. Member for Bolton South East place. I am speaking, however, about when the actus (Yasmin Qureshi) and my right hon. and learned Friend reus of the offence is alleged to have taken place in the the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) UK—in particular, in internet-type cases—so the evidence, for their powerful contributions. and the proper forum, would seem to be in the UK. There has long been a tradition that Parliament is the That is my deep sense of how things should be: if a last backstop for the liberty of the subject and the crime is committed in the UK, it should be prosecuted protection of the rights of property. It is right for us to in the UK. One should not be seized from the UK, as be deeply interested in the liberty of our electors and the NatWest three famously were, and sent before a jury citizens, and it is particularly great to see in the Chamber in Texas. Having been a partner in an American law the shadow Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for firm and having talked to colleagues, my understanding Tooting (Sadiq Khan), who has remained in his seat is that Texan juries are simple: people from Texas get a throughout the debate and who has been such a powerful good hearing, but if people are not from Texas, it is a bit advocate for his constituent, Babar Ahmad. There seems more hit and miss. One needs to be cautious in such to be a strong, cross-party feeling that things are simply cases. not right. Another thing that I and many people feel strongly To pick up on one issue, if people are in the UK and about is reciprocity, in particular the remarks in the commit a crime in the UK, the deep, natural sense that Scott Baker report about probable cause versus reasonable we all—the person in the street—have is that such suspicion. That takes us to paragraph 3(c) of article 8 of people should be prosecuted in the UK for that act, if it the treaty. It says is an offence in this country, and not be taken away “for requests to the United States,”— from home, loved ones, community and everything familiar to be prosecuted in a foreign country.In particular, it is only to the United States— I have long found the US-UK extradition treaty troubling. “such information as would provide a reasonable basis to believe that the person sought committed the offense for which extradition Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May I issue a slight is requested.” corrective? Everyone thus far has talked about British That “reasonable basis to believe” finds its origin in the nationals being extradited. Quite often, a request under fourth amendment to the US constitution, which was a European arrest warrant, or for that matter an extradition passed in 1791. Interestingly, in our jurisprudence that request, is for a non-British national. One reason for the principle found its heart and motivation in the famous, number of European arrest warrants from Poland being landmark case of Entick v. Carrington in 1765. I feel so high is that a lot of them are for Polish people whom that in our Parliament we sometimes forget our finer the Polish Government want to take back to Poland. and more enduring principles, while the Americans seem to embed them slightly more effectively. The Scott Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair Baker report states, in effect, that there is no real point, but I am concentrating on our citizens and our difference between probable cause and reasonable suspicion. electors. I do not share that conclusion. 173WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 174WH

[Charlie Elphicke] The Secretary of State should have a backstop power to decline to authorise extradition, and reintroduction The table in paragraph 7.30 on page 237 of the Scott of that should be considered to provide extra, discretionary Baker report, which I am sure everyone has read in protection in favour of liberty of the subject. We should great detail, clearly states of requests to the United be super-cautious before sending any of our citizens to States: face trial in another jurisdiction. “Information satisfying the probable cause test”, but of requests to the United Kingdom it states: 4.12 pm “Information satisfying the reasonable suspicion test”. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I will Is there a difference between probable cause and reasonable be brief, first because, regrettably, I have a prior engagement. suspicion or not? Scott Baker says not. I apologise to the Minister and the Opposition Front-Bench Let us look at more of the detail. The Scott Baker spokesman for being unable to be present when they report then mentions the definition of “probable cause” respond to the debate. However, I will read Hansard in paragraph 7.35 on page 239: carefully, because the Minister has a dilemma. An “A well-known definition of probable cause is, ‘a reasonable independent review has taken place, and probably all belief that a person has committed a crime’… The Oxford Companion right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken wish to United States Law defines probable cause as, ‘information that the outcome of that review was slightly different. I sufficient to warrant a prudent person’s belief that the wanted hope that Hansard will reveal how the Minister intends individual had committed a crime’.” to take the matter forward. We are talking about the difference between reasonable suspicion and reasonable belief, and I say that belief is a My second reason for being brief is that many right rather higher test than simply suspicion. hon. and hon. Members have made pertinent and cogent points, and have explained why the situation is not Let me give an example. An hon. Member’s Order palatable or acceptable. In particular, my right hon. and Paper has gone missing in the House and the Member learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir thinks that a colleague has taken it—but which colleague? Menzies Campbell) set out the concerns with the clarity There are so many around. The Member sees the Order and precision for which he is renowned. I hazard to say Paper, or part of it, poking out of a colleague’s jacket, that he used an analytical and forensic approach, something so the Member has a reasonable belief that that colleague that he thought the Chamber would have no appetite has taken it. If the Member does not see anything and for, but I think it did. There is clearly an appetite in the merely suspects the ne’er-do-well in the next seat, that is Chamber today for the matter to be pursued in the reasonable suspicion, because that colleague has done House in the near future, with a debatable motion that that kind of thing before. Belief is a higher test than can be voted on. I would welcome that. suspicion, and there is strong feeling of concern— rightly—that the treaty does not have the degree of The Liberal Democrats have a history of supporting reciprocity that it should have. campaigns to prosecute UK citizens in UK courts, and most notably in cases such as the NatWest three in 2006 Another matter that I feel strongly about, because I and that of Gary McKinnon. My right hon. and learned believe strongly in the liberty of the subject and the Friend played a central role in pushing that. In 2009, proper testing of any case, is the fact that there should while in opposition, our leader, the Deputy Prime Minister, be the old prima facie test that we used to have. I know said that Gary McKinnon’s extradition would amount that that would raise the objection that it leads to long to a travesty of justice. He also said that the US-UK hearings and so on, but why should we not have the extradition treaty is lop-sided. I support that position same test for extradition as for a committal for trial of and agree with that description. The treaty is lop-sided, the old style? That seems to me to be the right way to and the same could be said about the European Union go, because we should be cautious before sending our and the European arrest warrant. However, we must citizens abroad. I appreciate that that may cause difficulties adopt a balanced approach to those arrest warrants, with the European arrest warrant, because it is bound and right hon. and hon. Members have referred to cases up with the wider European issue, where angels fear to in which constituents have been extradited, describing tread. However, leaving that aside, we have wider discretion the impact on them. Equally, some hon. Members with other countries, and perhaps we should consider know of British citizens such as a constituent of mine firmer testing of the proof, particularly with jurisdictions whose son was seriously assaulted in Greece and nearly where we are unsure whether they will provide the died as a result. Those who were believed to be responsible proper level and quality of information and fair trial, were British citizens who were subsequently extradited and when we worry that they might not be entirely to Greece using a European arrest warrant. We must straightforward and honest about their level of evidence. adopt a balanced approach. Today, we have heard about cases in which there has been concern about the level of evidence. It is clear from the debate that right hon. and hon. I would like the Minister to provide some clarity. I Members on both sides of the Chamber believe that understand that 24 British citizens have been extradited agreements, particularly with the US and the European to America, and that one American has been extradited Union, have stripped the UK of many discretionary to the UK. Given that the treaty was entered into to powers, and have arguably sacrificed the rights of British deal with terrorism, how many of those 24 cases involved citizens for the sake of better relations with the EU and extradition for terrorist-related charges, and how many the US. did not? That is germane to how correctly the House One contribution that I should highlight is that of the was led when the treaty was introduced. It was told at hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), who is the time that the treaty covered terrorist activities, but no longer in his place. He made an unfortunate reference not wider activities. to “so-called” human rights. As citizens, we have intrinsic 175WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 176WH human rights, and referring to “so-called” human rights I want to re-emphasise the decisions taken so far by denigrates our fundamental rights, which we should be the Home Affairs Committee. Before I do so, I want to proud of. commend the excellent report of the Joint Committee Sir Scott Baker’s report explains that, in his view, on Human Rights. It was fair and balanced. It provided there is much confusion and misunderstanding about Members with an insight into the struggles faced not how extradition works, and he rebuts the calls for a only by individuals, but by members of families who change in the law, particularly in cases such as that of support those individuals not only in the normal legal Gary McKinnon. I do not agree with his findings, but process, but against Governments of other countries. It the review is independent, so dissent is legitimate, if not certainly will help my Committee in the work that we encouraged. That is why I shall read carefully what the do. Minister says about that independent review. I have an apology to make. We started our inquiry into extradition a year ago, but unfortunately events in Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I understand that the Home Affairs Committee tend to gather pace and the Deputy Prime Minister, in his capacity as leader of different issues occupy us. We were therefore not able to the Liberal Democrats, has set up a party review under conclude our report, partly because of the Committee’s the chairmanship of the right hon. and learned Member heavy workload, but also because we were waiting for for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). Can the the outcome of Sir Scott Baker’s review. I am pleased to hon. Gentleman tell the House when that review is tell the House that Sir Scott Baker will be appearing likely to report? before the Committee on 20 December. We have been trying to get him before us for a while, but we thought it Tom Brake: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his best that he should report first before we questioned intervention. My right hon. and learned Friend may him on his conclusions. This debate will provide us with want to intervene to provide clarity on when the panel a great deal of information about individual cases, will report. which I hope will assist the Committee and Parliament once we publish our report in February. Sir Menzies Campbell: As soon as possible. I am delighted that the Liberal Democrats will be having their own review. Judging by what the chairman of the panel has told the House today, I have a fair idea Tom Brake: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend, what the conclusions will be even before the review has who has responded in true ministerial mode. The panel begun. It would be very odd if we had conclusions from will respond as soon as possible. a review chaired by the right hon. and learned Member Sir Scott Baker’s conclusions do not take into account for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) that were the emotional strain that is put on individuals and different from what he has said today and different from families involved in extradition cases. His findings draw the principled stand that he took on the Gary McKinnon conclusions about, for example, whether a forum bar case. It would certainly be a shock to us all if they were would have been used in historic cases, which are difficult different from the words of the right hon. Member for to substantiate. He also suggests a periodic review of Carshalton and Wallington, and the words of the Deputy arrangements with certain countries, such as Russia or Prime Minister when in opposition, when he was clear Azerbaijan, with which I feel very uncomfortable. I that in his view Gary McKinnon should not be allowed welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend the Deputy to go to America to face trial. Prime Minister, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, has asked my right hon. and learned Friend to set up a Sir Menzies Campbell: I am loth to cause a shock to panel, which will report as soon as possible. the right hon. Gentleman. He can assume that my views I will not refer to the Joint Committee on Human have been formed for a long time and are unlikely to be Rights, because many other hon. Members have done changed. However, there is an important element, to so. I shall simply conclude by thanking Sir Scott Baker which I made reference earlier, about how one would for his review, although I do not accept his findings. I effect the changes in the treaty arrangements between therefore welcome and endorse the panel that is being this country and the United States to ensure that a established under the leadership of my right hon. and system that we find acceptable was put in place. learned Friend. I hope that that panel will make recommendations to address the imbalances that we Keith Vaz: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is identified in opposition and which, because we have absolutely right. That is the fundamental basis for what taken no action so far, remain and must be rectified. should happen next. There is consensus across the House about what is wrong with the treaty. I have spoken to previous Home Secretaries under the previous 4.19 pm Government, one of whom expressed regret about the Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure, way in which the original treaty was negotiated. The Mr Leigh, to follow the right hon. Member for Carshalton next step, therefore, must be to look again at the treaty and Wallington (Tom Brake) on this important subject. and see what changes can be made. I join others in congratulating the hon. Member for We have heard some extraordinary stories—I should Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) on securing this debate. I say case histories, not stories—from the hon. Members agree that it would have been better to have this debate for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and for Richmond on the Floor of the House. These important matters Park (Zac Goldsmith). We have heard about the excellent have been of concern to many Members, hence the large work by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting number of right hon. and hon. Members who have (Sadiq Khan). The Home Affairs Committee listened attended the debate. carefully to the evidence given by the father of Babar 177WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 178WH

[Keith Vaz] trial under our shocking extradition arrangements. He is now entering his sixth year of imprisonment. I pay Ahmad when he appeared. He spoke with great dignity. tribute to the courage and bravery of Babar and Talha’s If someone’s son has been in custody for as long as families in fighting for justice for their sons. Before I go Babar Ahmad, I would expect anger and outrage, but on, I want to join others in paying tribute to Babar and the way in which he gave evidence to the Committee was Talha’s MP, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq absolutely commendable. Khan). He is here today, but, as a member of the The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), shadow Cabinet, he is not permitted to contribute to who is not in his place at the moment, has done an this Back-Bench debate. As we know, he stands firmly outstanding job in protecting his constituent and in by both Babar, Talha and their families and has done so advancing the cause of Gary McKinnon. I do not think since their ordeals began. that we would have been discussing these issues had it As hon. Members know, in June this year, the Joint not been for the case studies that we have had in Committee on Human Rights urged the Government to Tooting and Southgate. change the law, so that Babar Ahmad’s perpetual threat The Home Affairs Committee has unanimously written of extradition was ended without further delay. Since to the Minister. We wrote to the previous Minister with all the allegations against Babar Ahmad are said to have responsibility for immigration and the previous Home taken place in Britain, Babar’s father has started an Secretary under the previous Government to urge them e-petition to call on the Government to put him on trial to write to the United States to express a view and in the UK and support British justice for British citizens. conclude this matter. That is my plea to the Minister. As hon. Members will know, over 140,000 people supported We are told that politics is not included in such matters that e-petition and, although today’s debate is welcome, because of their legal nature, but we know that the it is not enough. Prime Minister spoke to President Obama about these There are three key reasons why we need a full debate matters when the President came to the United Kingdom, on a voteable motion in the main Chamber. First, I am so there is politics in this. I cannot see why it has taken grateful to the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), 18 months for the Home Secretary to make a decision who is no longer in her place. She sits on the Backbench about this case. I have written to her regularly on behalf Business Committee, and gave an assurance that it of the Committee. Each time she has replied to tell me would look again at the possibility of holding a full that the medical evidence cannot be agreed, but the debate in the main Chamber. That is important because medical evidence, as we have heard from the hon. Member of the level of grass-roots support for the e-petition on for Enfield, Southgate, has not changed over the past 18 Babar Ahmad. The campaign had no formal organisation; months. I hope that we can reach a conclusion on this. there were no big newspapers behind it and it was Once we conclude on Gary McKinnon, and then when basically an outflowing of grass-roots outrage that saw we hear the views of the Deputy Prime Minister, we will the families involved going from door to door in south know the coalition Government’s position on the Act London, out in the cold and the rain, standing outside and the treaty. That is why the McKinnon case is so supermarkets, churches and mosques, and making videos important. of each other signing the petition—many of those I hope that we will have closure on this matter. I hope videos were posted on YouTube. It was an example of that right hon. and hon. Members who have other cases democracy in action. will be able to get satisfaction. I do not know whether The petition gained astounding support in such a our report will be as brilliant as the report of the Joint short time because this is a shocking human rights case. Committee on Human Rights, but I hope that, when we People are rightly appalled at the simple but extraordinary report in February, after we have taken evidence from fact highlighted in the petition: a British citizen is being Sir Scott Baker, we will be able to assist the House in held, without charge and without trial, in a maximum deciding what the next steps will be. security prison, and that has gone on for over seven years. I have long lobbied for the closure of Guantanamo 4.27 pm Bay, and as we approach the 10th anniversary of its existence, the cases of Babar and Talha remind us that Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Let me one of the most fearful things about it—people being add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Esher held without charge and without trial—is happening on and Walton (Mr Raab) on securing this important UK soil at the behest of the US. debate. I appreciate that the Backbench Business Committee I am grateful to other hon. Members who have made may find it difficult to devote parliamentary time to a strong case for the radical reform of the UK’s extradition every petition that passes the threshold of 100,000 treaties by citing the powerful case studies of Deborah signatures, but this was a genuine grass-roots campaign. Dark and Gary McKinnon and far too many others. If we do not have a full debate in the Commons, we risk Like other hon. Members, I want to use the opportunity alienating the more than 140,000 people who signed the of today’s debate to raise the case of Babar Ahmad. As e-petition following efforts by the families involved. other hon. Members have said, Babar Ahmad, a British Those families want a debate on a voteable motion in citizen, has been detained in the UK for seven years the main Chamber, as do the campaign’s many supporters. without charge or trial. He is fighting extradition to the Officially, of course, all parliamentary Chambers are of USA under the Extradition Act 2003, which, incredibly, equal standing, but in the eyes of the general public does not require the presentation of any prima facie there is a difference between Westminster Hall and the evidence. main Chamber of the House of Commons. Critically, Babar is not alone in his ordeal. The poet, Talha that difference comes down to whether there will be a Ahsan, is another UK citizen who has also been held—his vote and, quite rightly, Babar Ahmad’s supporters want case is related to Babar’s—without charge and without to see their MPs take a stand on the issue. 179WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 180WH

Secondly, Babar’s family have been deeply moved evidence” to charge Babar Ahmad with any criminal that, in the midst of a recession, more people have offence under UK law, and that he should be extradited expressed their concern to Parliament about a British to the US. Last night, in a shocking turn of events, citizen being detained for over seven years without Babar’s lawyers received a letter from the CPS, which charge or trial, than have shown their anger about rising admitted for the first time that it was never given the fuel prices. We will send a negative message to all those evidence that was sent to the US, apart from “a few who have engaged with the e-petition process if we do documents.” The bulk of the evidence was shipped not take the matter forward with a debate in the main straight to the US by the police. Astoundingly, although Chamber. we had previously been led to believe that the CPS had One of our strongest tools for combating the threat viewed all the evidence and judged it insufficient to of terrorism is vigorously to protect justice, democracy bring the case to trial in the UK, we now have a and human rights. Every time we undermine the values confession that it had not even seen all the evidence, let that we purport to protect, with legislation such as the alone investigated it properly. A proper decision has not Extradition Act 2003, we run the risk of adding to the been made on whether a prosecution can go ahead in sense of alienation that we know is felt by many of our the UK. young people. Over 140,000 people have told Parliament After talking to the lawyers involved, I understand that they want MPs to engage more with such issues. that the CPS knew all along that it had not been given The third reason for having a debate on the Floor of all the evidence. However, it let Babar Ahmad languish a House and a vote is that we urgently need to change in a maximum security prison with the threat of extradition the law. The detention without trial of Babar and Talha to the US, under the false belief that the CPS had seen undermines our democracy. all the evidence against him. If that is the case, it is appalling and raises serious questions about why evidence Chris Bryant: Will the hon. Lady be clear about what that should have been given to the CPS was not produced, she wants the vote to be on? and why Babar was not told about it. Who directed and authorised that circumvention of the CPS, apparently Caroline Lucas: I would be happy to take advice from in deference to and at the behest of the US? other hon. Members on that, but a vote should consider The issue is simple: either there is evidence or there is the design of this country’s extradition treaty, so that it not. If there is evidence, a prosecution should go ahead is not imbalanced, as it currently seems to be. I would in the UK. The CPS must immediately obtain a copy of like such a vote to refer directly to Babar but I understand all the evidence, which was gathered in the UK by UK why others may not. This is a point of general principle, authorities, and it must then review that evidence together illustrated clearly by the case of Babar Ahmad. with its decision on whether to prosecute in the UK. Members have heard the circumstances of Babar Given the new revelation from the CPS, it seems— Ahmad’s arrest in 2003, and the fact that he sustained at appallingly—that UK authorities deferred to the US, least 73 injuries, all later documented by police and thereby subverting the process that should have been independent doctors. He filed a formal complaint, stating followed and denying Babar Ahmad a trial in this that he had been subjected to horrific physical, sexual country. Because of the seriousness of the case, it is and religious abuse by the arresting police officers. In appropriate to call today for a full public inquiry into March 2009, the Metropolitan police force finally admitted what has gone on. liability in the royal courts of justice in London and On 10 June 2007, the European Court of Human said that it had carried out the assault on Babar Ahmad Rights ordered the UK Government to freeze Babar in December 2003. The then Metropolitan Police Ahmad’s extradition until it had fully determined his Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, admitted that Babar final appeal. The European Court has declared that had been the victim of a Babar’s application is partially admissible and now “serious, gratuitous and prolonged attack.” awaits further observations from the UK Government In March 2009, Babar was awarded £60,000 on the life sentence without parole, in solitary confinement compensation by the High Court. He is now, however, in a supermax prison, that Babar faces if extradited to in his eighth year at a top-security prison, even though the United States. The final decision is expected before he has been found to have no case to answer in this the end of the year. country. The US has alleged that Babar was running a It is astonishing that the previous Government passed website that solicited funds for terrorist organisations, an Act that does not require the presentation of any including al-Qaeda and Chechen rebels. That is a serious prima facie evidence by the US when they wish to accusation, and there should, of course, be a trial. extradite a UK citizen. That must be changed urgently, Babar and his family desperately want the case to stand and the way to start such a process is by holding a trial but wish that to take place in the UK, not in the debate in the main Chamber and having a vote as soon US, so that he can clear his name. That is partly because as possible. Babar is a British citizen and accused of having committed In addition to enormous public support, this case crimes in the UK, and partly because going to the US also has cross-party backing, together with the support would separate him from his family, friends and legal of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Home representatives, and seriously undermine his ability to Affairs Committee, and 100 senior barristers and solicitors mount a strong defence. who wrote to the Leader of the House this week, Babar’s lawyers point out that other comparable requesting that the matter be properly debated in the prosecutions are proceeding in the UK. Nevertheless, in main Chamber of the House of Commons. Today’s July 2004 and December 2006, the Crown Prosecution revelations by the CPS make the case for a full debate Service declared—as did the Attorney-General, Lord with a vote even more urgent, and I hope that the Goldsmith, in September 2006—that there was “insufficient Government will look favourably at the issue. 181WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 182WH

4.38 pm have proceedings carried out in one’s own language or with a full translation. I hope that hon. Members share Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I am conscious my shock that, although Andrew Symeou was given a that I will be the last person to contribute before the translator on the opening day of the trial, it was clear winding-up speeches. A lot has already been said, and when opening statements were being made that the I will not repeat points for the sake of repetition, as I translator could not even tell the difference between the believe may have happened previously. Having read the words “juror” and “witness”. Worse, the translator Scott Baker report, my goal is to seek assurances from summarised one set of remarks by saying, “Well, it was the Minister that he will engage with the report so that something like that. I hope that that will do for you.” we avoid a passive and compliant acceptance of it. I am That is not the best method of giving confidence to a sure that he recognises the strength of feeling among defendant and it does not meet the requirement to hon. Members. provide a full translation of proceedings. It should be The reason for my concern is summed up in point 1.11 noted that the translator in question was being paid on page 11 of the weighty document that is the Scott barely £14 a day. I am forced to conclude that that does Baker report. It simply says: not necessarily buy the best translation services. “Apart from the problem of proportionality, we believe that the European arrest warrant… has worked… well.” In point 5.53 on page 138 of this weighty volume, Scott Baker says: Given the lack of evidence submitted in relation to the Scott Baker report from those who have been on the “We are also of the view that as a starting point it is not receiving end of miscarriages of justice—that is how I inappropriate to begin with an assumption that surrender to another Member State of the European Union will not involve a regard the way they were treated—we would do well to violation of human rights.” urge the Minister to take into account anecdotal evidence and to lend more weight to it than it seems to have been He therefore assumes that everything will be okay because given in the report. the countries that sign up to the European arrest warrant have signed up to the charter of human rights. I submit One reason why I was keen to speak is that I wanted that that is repeatedly highlighted as a failing. to give voice to my constituent Andrew Symeou and his family, whose nightmare came to an end only earlier Let us examine one other area of the review. It does this year following a three-year process in which Andrew not necessarily relate directly to my constituent, but it was finally extradited in 2009 after an arrest warrant points to one of the weaknesses in the report. I am had been issued in 2008. He subsequently spent one referring to the question of dual criminality. I will not year in jail in Greece, where he was refused bail simply bore hon. Members by going into that in detail—I will because he was a foreigner. On top of that, by the time assume a degree of understanding—but essentially, under he was rightly found innocent of all charges, there had the European arrest warrant scheme, people can be been a massive cost to his family, whom I have been extradited for acts and behaviours that, no matter how privileged to get to know very well. They put their lives abhorrent we may consider them—xenophobia is the on hold when they went to Greece to support their son most well known example—are not criminal offences in while he was in jail for a year. That gross misuse of the the UK. That flaw has already been highlighted in the European arrest warrant meant that Frank Symeou’s work done by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, business inevitably suffered; indeed, he no longer has but Scott Baker’s conclusion is, “Well, yes, we note that business. There was a direct cause-and-effect that”—I paraphrase of course—“but given that it has relationship between the two things. I place on the not been an issue in the last few years, we’re not worried record my immense admiration for the way they stood about it.” It worries me that people recognise that by their son, fought bureaucracy, fought their corner something is not quite right, but because nothing has and ultimately won the justice that Andrew deserved. really gone wrong in the past, it is okay. That is like a Andrew is determined, rightly, to see that we get changes mechanic noticing a flaw in an aircraft’s landing gear to a system that he believes should not be allowed to but not taking corrective action, because as far as he is administer justice of the sort that he went through. concerned, up till then the plane has always landed The right hon. and learned Member for North East safely with the wheels coming down. It does not build Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who is not in his place, confidence. said that he felt that hon. Members were not ready for a I am surprised, as I am in relation to other matters—I forensic, detailed analysis of the 480 pages in Scott will not go into them, given the time—that we have not Baker’s report. That means that I have wasted a lot of used the review to think about other possible problems my bedtime reading, but I would like to draw attention that have been highlighted, but, because we may not to two or three things that point to why the report is have come across them, have been dismissed. That is wrong to assume that, apart from the problem of not a satisfactory way to proceed. proportionality, I endorse what was said about the nonsensical situation “the European arrest warrant scheme has worked reasonably well.” of a court not needing to examine prima facie evidence before a fugitive is extradited. That is considered by the I shall draw again on real-life anecdotal evidence. I feel review, but no alternative is reasonably suggested. Again, that, throughout the review, Scott Baker managed to my concern stems from the case of my constituent, overlook that anecdotal evidence and has all but rejected Andrew Symeou. My hon. Friend the Member for many of our concerns. Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) highlighted the fact that Let us first examine the concerns regarding the there were clear discrepancies in the evidence. Clear mistreatment of a fugitive’s fundamental human rights. evidence was presented to the court that showed a For example, quite important in a trial or a prosecution change in the statements of witnesses—witnesses who process, as I am sure hon. Members agree, is the right to were first in Greece and put under a lot of pressure, but 183WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 184WH then returned to the UK and immediately withdrew I agree with right hon. and hon. Members that it is their statements. There was some evidence of abuse as unfortunate, to say the least, that a part of our debate well. this afternoon is a tagging on of a matter that has been The court noted that, but made it clear that, with the raised by a petition, which has been supported by more European arrest warrant, this is simply a tick-box than 140,000 people. I have my personal criticisms of exercise—so long as the boxes are ticked, it is not within the way in which the e-petition system was set up. There its remit to pass judgment on the quality of that evidence. are problems in that what the public want may not Therein lies the problem; that is where we should try to necessarily be what an individual Back Bencher wants raise the bar. Much has been said about the opportunity the Backbench Business Committee to advance. However, to do that. I endorse the support given for a forum bar. the topic has its own specific importance and should be That must be examined to introduce a level of security debated properly on its own. for our citizens in what is a critical affair for them. I have asked the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion My overriding sense and concern is that the European (Caroline Lucas) about the nature of the question that arrest warrant scheme has—not by malicious design; I one should ask, as that is an important principle. Our understand why it was set up—made a particular debate is in Westminster Hall, immediately next to a substitution in the interest of expediency. Of course, we place where Parliament regularly used to decide on the all know the flaws that existed long before it came guilt—it was nearly always the guilt, rarely the along. I am thinking of the Costa del Sol—Costa del innocence—of people, who were then sent off to face Crime—and so on. However, in the interest of expediency, the death penalty. Notwithstanding that fact, it is a the scheme is prepared to accept it as reasonable that good principle that Parliament and elected politicians there will be disproportionate effects and potential do not decide on the innocence or guilt of any individual; miscarriages of justice. I submit that we should not I am sure that she was not saying that they should. They tolerate that. Not one British citizen should have to go can decide on matters such as whether they or the through what my constituent and the others whom we House have been lied to and whether there has been a have heard about went through in the interest of expediency breach of privilege. and process, however well motivated and well intentioned Some people have been moving towards the view that it was. we should take some kind of vote on the issue, which I I had hoped and expected that the Scott Baker review think would be difficult to do. It would also be difficult would be a wholesale rethinking of the UK’s extradition for us to vote precisely on the question of whether arrangements. Going by today’s debate, it does not someone should be prosecuted. It is not for this House appear to have lived up to anyone’s expectations, which to decide whether the British prosecuting authority I am disappointed by. I remind Members of a comment should prosecute. I wholeheartedly support the idea made before the election that indicated what members that we have a proper debate on Babar Ahmad in the of our Front-Bench team thought—that the UK’s main Chamber, and also on the wider issues of extradition, extradition arrangements were “a mess”. It is reasonable the extradition treaty and the European arrest warrant, to conclude that our hopes for Scott Baker now are that probably on a voteable resolution. However, it would be while we can learn, listen and take on board what he has inappropriate to breach the basic principles that I have said, we must not lose sight of our duty to ensure that set out. our citizens have the right process of justice. That must It is a delight to see the Chair of the Select Committee not be sacrificed on the altar of expediency and process, on Home Affairs back in his seat. He sent me a lovely no matter how successful those might have been with note earlier to say that he was off to another meeting some serious crime. We must find a way through the and might miss my “brilliant” speech—though I note problem so that we do not end up with fundamental that he had added the word “brilliant” afterwards. I abuses of individuals’rights, such as those of my constituent, think he sent the same note to the Minister. Andrew Symeou. It is important that we proceed with further debates I hope that we reform the UK’s extradition arrangements on another occasion on substantive motions. I recognise so that they are fair and balanced. I am not saying that the fact that my right hon. Friend the Member for there is no need to have in place a system that speeds up Tooting (Sadiq Khan) has sat here throughout this an extradition process, but fundamentally, I urge Ministers afternoon’s debate. That is part of the ongoing care that to protect British citizens, rather than sacrifice them on he has been taking of his constituent, which many the altar of expediency. Members in the debate have recognised. We have to acknowledge some important first principles. 4.51 pm Extradition is a vital part of ensuring the security and Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a delight to serve safety of people in our own country and around the under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh, although I rather world, and ever more so today. Perhaps in the 17th and liked the moment when you were sitting behind me as 18th centuries, British people could have evaded justice though you were my Parliamentary Private Secretary; in this country by going abroad, and vice versa. I do not that would have been a unique combination, and we believe that anyone in the Chamber believes that that would have had fascinating debates in our team. should be the case today, especially in a world where I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Esher people cross borders far more frequently and where and Walton (Mr Raab) on securing this debate. He crime can be conducted from one country in another always manages to secure debates, and the debates are country far more easily. It is all the more important that never uncontentious. At the rate he is going, I suspect we have a sane and sensible process of extradition. that he will be the next leader of the Conservative party, One of my criticisms of one of the most unfair but having said that, I have probably destroyed his imbalances relates to the relationship between the United career. Kingdom and Russia. Russia will not extradite—because 185WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 186WH

[Chris Bryant] Chris Bryant: Yes, of course I do. It is always quite difficult to achieve perfectly because people have different its constitution refuses to allow it to do so—any Russian criminal justice systems. If we proceed on the basis of national ever, come what may. I believe that Andrey English common law, we end up with a different sort of Lugovoy should have been extradited to this country a process than we would if our whole justice system were long time ago for the murder of Alexander Litvinenko. based on the Napoleonic code. This is where we need to I do not think we will ever see justice for Mr Litvinenko’s do more work on the European arrest warrant. I would widow, who suffers, in many ways, exactly the same not want to get rid of the EAW because, broadly deprivation of justice that many have referred to in the speaking, it has worked to our benefit. There are elements cases where British people have been extradited abroad. of it, however, that have not helped. It seems bizarre, for The UK issued 1,295 European arrest warrants in a instance, that 1,659 of the cases that are sought from relatively short period of seven years. Out of those, the UK are from Poland and 355 from Lithuania. The there have been 581 surrenders to the UK. Sometimes, rumour is that they are all to do with sheep rustling and they have been British nationals in other countries who so on, but because there is a different prosecutorial have committed crimes. The hon. Member for Enfield regime in Poland and in Lithuania, we need to get to a North (Nick de Bois) referred to the Costa del Crime. system of proportionality in the advance of European British prosecuting authorities being unable to pursue arrest warrants. If we do not, we simply will not have justice had been a permanent feature—people could go the reciprocity to which the hon. Gentleman refers. We off, live in Spain and never come back to the UK. I am also need to do more to help other countries to develop glad to say that the Costa del Crime has been closed a strong criminal justice system that meets the threshold down. One of the people involved in the 21 July attempted for justice and impartiality to which we, in this country, bombings in the United Kingdom was brought back to aspire. That is obviously an important part of what we the UK from Italy swiftly by virtue of the European need to work on in relation to new countries coming arrest warrant. Similarly, a large number of IRA terrorists into the European Union. were brought back to the UK by the EAW. We should I also believe that justice in relation to extradition not chuck the baby out with the bath water. There were needs to be exercised on a fair, balanced and relatively 179 returns from Spain and 117 from Ireland, which is swift basis. If we take completely out of the equation quite important to us. the nature of the allegations against Mr Ahmad, the Of course, extradition should not always be granted. fact that he has been in prison for so long without any Notwithstanding the many cases that have been referred form of trial, charge or anything at all is manifestly to this afternoon, many requests are not granted. There unfair and unjust. It is not because the Americans want were 4,325 requests to the UK, and only 3,107 were him to be kept there—they would like to be able to granted. Indeed, quite a lot from Russia have not been proceed with the prosecution and come to a resolution granted, because they were determined to have been of the case. It is because the European Court of Human based solely on political considerations and not truly on Rights is taking a phenomenally long time to resolve its the pursuit of justice. That is why the two clauses issues, which is why I support substantial reform of how regarding the two categories of countries relating to the Court operates so that there can be a degree of human rights are important. swiftness in relation to extradition. In a sense, slow justice is no justice. Nick de Bois: Can the hon. Gentleman clarify whether When we were in government, we made it clear that some of the applications were not exercised in full or the US and the UK ran different but parallel systems. executed simply because the authorities could not find The Baker review agrees with what Patricia Scotland the people, as opposed to finding reasons not to extradite? said when she was Attorney-General. If there is to be a change in the balancing requirements between the two Chris Bryant: The honest truth is that it is a right old countries, it must be based on hard evidence. Some of mix. That is why, as we consider the matter, there is a the numbers that have been advanced this afternoon in danger that we proceed only on the basis of what the relation to the US are not, I think, right. Insofar as I am hon. Gentleman referred to as anecdotal evidence of aware, there have been many more requests to the UK individual cases, rather than properly garnered substantive than there have been from the UK to the United States evidence that covers the whole realm. of America. However, I think only one request to the US has been denied since 2004. Of course more British I know the case of the hon. Gentleman’s constituent people go to the United States regularly than there are very well; I have met the family.When the hon. Gentleman’s Americans who come to the United Kingdom, so the predecessor was a Member of Parliament, I answered imbalance in the numbers is partly to be expected. debates. At the Foreign Office, we tried as much as possible to rectify the problems with Greek justice. His constituent’s case was far from a unique example, not The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of specifically regarding extradition, but regarding British the House of Commons (Mr David Heath) indicated people facing justice in Greek jails, in a criminal justice dissent. system that was falling apart at the seams in many ways. The Foreign Office had a difficult job to do in trying to Chris Bryant: The Deputy Leader of the House is ensure that those people got justice. shaking his head. If he has other statistics, I will be happy to give way to him. Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman cited the case The Government have a problem. The Conservative of Russia. Does he think that, in such dealings, reciprocity party and the Liberal Democrats made a series of is an important underlying principle that we should commitments when they were in opposition to change follow? the treaty to ensure that Gary McKinnon would not be 187WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 188WH sent to the United States of America. As I understand We have seen a number of high-profile extradition it, the Government were going to rely on the Baker cases in recent years. The surrender of a person to review, but that review has provided exactly the opposite another country to face trial is always a challenging and answer to what they expected. difficult process both for the person concerned and for his or her family. What is vital, and what the Government The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green) indicated have said repeatedly in the context of the extradition dissent. review, is that we strike the correct balance between seeking redress for victims of crime, while protecting Chris Bryant: The Minister is shaking his head. Perhaps the fundamental rights of suspects brought to justice. he will correct my impression in a moment. That is the underlying principle that lies beneath today’s debate and it is why the debate is so useful. As has been Mr Burrowes: I rise in reference to Gary McKinnon. I said repeatedly this afternoon, a number of issues linked am not aware of any suggestion from the Government to our extradition arrangements have been of long-standing that the Baker review is linked to Gary McKinnon concern to Parliament. because any measure would have to be applied Since the Extradition Act 2003 came into force, there retrospectively. The only determination in relation to have been numerous debates in Committees and on the Gary McKinnon relies on the review’s work with respect Floors of both Houses. The issues range from the UK’s to medical evidence. It is important for us not to talk extradition arrangements with the United States, the down the opportunities for Gary McKinnon on the forum bars to extradition and the European arrest back of the Baker review. It is primarily on the basis of warrant and they have all been debated at length. In the medical evidence that his case is being considered. addition, there have been various public debates and campaigns on specific cases and issues relating to Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman makes an important extradition. A lot was said under the previous Government correction. I apologise for that conflation of views. We by the then Opposition parties about these issues. On have the Baker review now. I am sure that hon. Members coming into government we recognised that there were are far more interested in hearing from the Minister long-standing and deeply held concerns that we wanted about what the Government will do about this than in to address. That is why the coalition’s programme for hearing from me. government document made a clear commitment to “review the operation of the Extradition Act–and the US/UK Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Hear, hear. extradition treaty–to make sure it is even-handed.” In September 2010, the Home Secretary announced an Chris Bryant: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. I independent review of the UK’s extradition arrangements. have a series of questions for the Minister. What timeline The review was chaired by Sir Scott Baker, a former are the Government setting themselves for proceeding Lord Justice of Appeal who presided over the inquests with this matter? As every month goes by, there are into the deaths of Princess Diana and Dodi al-Fayed. more extradition requests and more people are brought Sir Scott was assisted by two lawyers, David Perry QC into the system. What do the Government intend to do and Anand Doobay, who between them have a wealth in relation to Gary McKinnon and what timetable are of experience of extradition from both a prosecutorial they proceeding along? What estimation have they made and a defence perspective. That independent panel of the Baker report? Do the Government agree with any undertook an extensive examination of the issues, including of it? Do they intend to commission a new report? a very thorough and careful consultation process, with What standing will the report by the right hon. and a range of parties representing all shades of opinion on learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies the subject. Campbell) have in relation to the Government’s position? It is clear from this afternoon’s debate that the conclusions that the panel reached are not attracting universal assent. 5.6 pm It has been very interesting to hear the views that have been expressed this afternoon, and I promise the House The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): It is a that those opinions will be given the most careful scrutiny pleasure to sit under your chairmanship for the first before we reveal to the House the action we propose to time, Mr Leigh. I join everyone else in congratulating take in response to the extradition review. my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) on gaining this debate. He and I have fought We have learned this afternoon that my right hon. on the same side in many civil liberties battles over the and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife years and will continue to do so. I thank him for the (Sir Menzies Campbell) and his commission on behalf thoughtful tone of his introduction, which infused the of the Liberal Democrat party will publish a report on debate and continued up to and including the speech extradition; I think he said that it will be published as made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) soon as possible. We discovered that the Home Affairs on behalf of the Opposition. I am happy to assure my Committee is to publish a report in February. Clearly, hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de the debate is not at an end and there will perhaps be a Bois) that we will indeed take very seriously the points plethora of further responses, all of which will feed into that have been made in the debate. As my right hon. the Government’s own consideration of the Scott Baker and learned Friend the Attorney-General said in the recommendations. House last week in respect of the extradition review, Although I am responding to the general part of the Government are currently considering what action today’s debate on extradition, it is important that I refer to take on these issues. As he made clear, we welcome to some individual cases, not least because the case these debates and the representations that have been of Babar Ahmad is cited specifically in the context of made. today’s debate and, as has been said several times, the 189WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 190WH

[Damian Green] Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can he say whether he believes that the shadow Justice Secretary has sat here throughout the latest information we have—that the CPS apparently debate. He is enforcedly silent because of the rules of did not see all the evidence before it went to the the House, but I know that he has been playing a most US—changes the analysis that he is putting forward? proper and energetic role defending his constituent’s How will his Department follow up the matter? It seems interests in this case. pretty shocking to me if the CPS has essentially been I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Member for saying that there is insufficient evidence to try Mr Ahmad Esher and Walton said that he did not want this to be a in the UK, yet now we discover that it has not even seen dry lawyer’s debate. I have never been accused of being all the evidence. either dry or a lawyer, but I am afraid that I am forced to go into the legal undergrowth in the Babar Ahmad Damian Green: The hon. Lady made an extremely case, and indeed that of Gary McKinnon. interesting point earlier; when she revealed it a few I will start with the background on Mr Ahmad’s case. minutes ago, it was the first I had heard of it. Obviously, He was arrested for extradition purposes in August all involved will need to look very carefully at the 2004. His case was dealt with under the Extradition Act evidence that she is bringing forward. 2003. Under the normal scheme of that Act, extradition Mr Ahmad is now challenging extradition before the hearings take place before a district judge at the City of ECHR. The Court has asked a number of questions in Westminster magistrates court. The court found that relation to the case and both sides have submitted there were no bars to Mr Ahmad’s surrender, whether observations on those points on several occasions. The on human rights or any of the other grounds that the review panel highlighted in its report cases that awaited court considers. Accordingly, the district judge sent the a decision by the ECHR and the amount of time that case to the Home Secretary for a decision under the they had been before that Court. It recommended that 2003 Act as to Babar Ahmad’s surrender. As part of the matter of the delay is taken up by the Government that process, it was then open to Mr Ahmad and those urgently, and that the Court should be encouraged to acting for him to make representations as to why he give priority to cases where extradition has been stayed. should not be surrendered. Following due consideration, The Government are considering that recommendation it was decided to order surrender. At that point, Mr along with the others made by the review panel, but the Ahmad had a statutory right of appeal against the United Kingdom has previously pressed, and will continue decision of the district judge to send the case to the to press, for the Court to reach its decision as soon as Home Secretary and the decision of the Home Secretary possible. to order surrender. That appeal took place in July 2006 Understandably, many concerns have been expressed, before the High Court and judgment was given in both today and over the years, about the length of time November that year, when the appeal was dismissed. that Mr Ahmad has been detained in custody awaiting There followed a petition for leave to appeal to the the outcome of the extradition request. Again, I obviously House of Lords, which in June 2007 refused leave. In appreciate the concerns about this issue, but Mr Ahmad that way, Mr Ahmad exhausted all the available domestic has been detained at all times on the order of the court. avenues for contesting the request for his extradition. He may, of course, apply for bail at any time and a Mr Ahmad then applied to the European Court of decision as to whether to grant any application for bail Human Rights. On 12 June 2007, that Court imposed a is also a matter for the court. stay on his extradition, and on 8 July 2010—three years As I have said, we continue to press the ECHR to later—the Court declared his case partially admissible reach its decision on the case as soon as possible, and and it remains under consideration by that Court. The where the Court seeks observations or clarifications e-petition on behalf of Mr Ahmad calls for him to be from the Home Office on the representations in the put on trial in the UK, since the allegations against him case, they are provided as soon as possible. We are in the United States relate to alleged conduct that took acutely aware of the time that has passed since the place while he was in the United Kingdom. The extradition request was first made and of the importance Government note the concern of petitioners on this of dealing with the matters raised as quickly as is issue, but it is not for the Government to decide if and consistent with fairness to all sides. when someone should be prosecuted in the United Kingdom. The decision as to whether to bring a prosecution Concerns have also been raised in respect of the case is a matter for the independent prosecuting authorities— of Gary McKinnon and I hope that it will be useful if I also update the House on his case. Mr McKinnon’s case is different from Mr Ahmad’s case as it falls to be Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister give way? decided by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I will briefly explain the reasons. Mr McKinnon has Damian Green: I will give way shortly; let me finish exhausted all rights of appeal under the Extradition going through the detail. Act 2003 and in his case the ECHR refused an application To date, the prosecuting authorities have decided not to impose a stay on his extradition. However, the Home to prosecute Mr Ahmad in the UK and in terms of the Secretary is under a duty under the Human Rights Act extradition request the courts in the United Kingdom 1998 not to act in a manner that is incompatible with a have held that authorities in the United States have person’s rights under the European convention on human jurisdiction in relation to the offences of which Mr rights. Therefore, she must consider whether, as a result Ahmad is accused, and that they are entitled to seek his of events occurring after the extradition proceedings, it extradition. Mr Ahmad’s case has been exhaustively would be contrary to the convention for a person to considered by the UK courts and they have concluded be extradited. The sole remaining issue, therefore, is that there are no bars to his extradition. whether extradition is compatible with Mr McKinnon’s 191WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 192WH convention rights. The Home Secretary sought the and the UK made 54 requests to the US, none of which independent advice of the chief medical officer, who has been refused. In the same period, 27 UK citizens has provided the names of two experts she believes were extradited to the US and 18 US citizens to the UK. are well placed to provide evidence on the relevant To clear up a point of confusion, the UK-US treaty medical issues. Those experts have now been instructed covers all types of criminality; it was not agreed simply to review the various reports that have been submitted to ensure that people suspected of terrorist offences in Mr McKinnon’s case. They will prepare a report that could be brought to justice. Indeed, no one has been will help the Home Secretary to determine whether extradited in either direction for terrorist offences since or not extradition would contravene Mr McKinnon’s 2004, because in the case of extraditions to the US, the convention rights. cases, including Babar Ahmad’s, are being considered The case is taking time to resolve. Obviously, it would by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, not be appropriate for me to go into the detail, but as due to the human rights issues they raise. Members will appreciate there have been a number of My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for issues relating to the case that have been the subject of North East Fife made a point about the Home Secretary’s lengthy discussions. We hope that the experts will report power to take decisions in this area. It is a matter of as soon as possible. However, this is not an easy case lively debate as to what quasi-judicial powers politicians and there are a number of issues that will need to be should have, but it is important to make clear what considered in depth. I am conscious of the long and considerations should be taken into account. In a case energetic campaign mounted by my hon. Friend the involving extradition within the EU, there is no role for Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), and I the Home Secretary; in a case involving extradition to know that he appreciates the frustrations of all involved another country, her role under the Extradition Act at the length of the case. 2003 is limited to considering the death penalty, speciality— Members on both sides of the House have raised the protection that ensures that someone can be tried concerns about specific European arrest warrant cases, only for the offence for which they are extradited—and and although the EAW is dealt with operationally by onward extradition, which deals with whether the state the Serious Organised Crime Agency and not the Home has given consent when someone has previously been Office, a number of significant cases have been brought extradited or transferred to the UK. There is, however, to our attention. The extradition review, although not a duty on the Secretary of State under section 6 of the referring specifically to cases, has dealt with a variety of Human Rights Act 1998 to ensure that extradition does high-profile issues that the cases have highlighted. I not breach someone’s human rights, as I explained in assure Members that we will take those issues, and the the context of the Gary McKinnon case. During the circumstances of the individual cases, into account statutory extradition process, human rights are considered when considering the range of EAW issues, many of by the courts, but if a human rights issue arises after the which were dealt with in considerable detail by the end of that process the Home Secretary must consider extradition review panel. In particular, I share the concern these issues. of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton I wish to leave some time for my hon. Friend the about European arrest warrants being issued for trivial Member for Esher and Walton to respond to the debate, offences. I know that other EU member states and, so I will close by reiterating that we will take note of not indeed, the European Commission, share that concern just the many interesting comments and points made with the British Government. As part of the review today, but also the various reports of the Joint Committee process, we are considering what action we should take on Human Rights and the reports we are expecting to address the issue. In the meantime, there are ongoing from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for discussions with our Polish counterparts to encourage North East Fife and from the Home Affairs Committee. their prosecutors and courts to consider whether the It is precisely because so many authoritative reports are issuing of an EAW, in the way it has been done in the being produced that I cannot respond to the question past, is a proportionate step to take. that various people have asked about an exact timeline My hon. Friends the Members for South Dorset for when we will come to a decision, but this has been (Richard Drax) and for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) an extremely valuable debate, and will play its own part said that they supported the concept of the EAW but in allowing the Government to develop the response that it had to be properly implemented, and when the that we will, as the Home Secretary has said, produce as Home Secretary announced the extradition review we soon as is practicable. recognised that there were serious concerns regarding that. The Baker report looked at that area in considerable 5.26 pm detail and made recommendations on proportionality, pre-trial detention and, in certain cases, the possibility Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): It is a of people serving sentences in the UK rather than being great privilege to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. extradited. In reaching its conclusions, the extradition I pay tribute to many colleagues on both sides of the review panel took evidence from a wide range of parties, House who have participated in the debate. I thank my and we will be looking at it very carefully. three co-sponsors, the Chair of the Joint Committee on Many Members raised issues about UK and US Human Rights, the hon. Member for Aberavon extradition figures, including the hon. Member for Bolton (Dr Francis), the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, South East (Yasmin Qureshi), my right hon. and learned the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) Friend the Member for North East Fife and the hon. and the right hon. and learned Member for North East Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis) who chairs the Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). Joint Committee on Human Rights. Between 2004 and There have been many incisive contributions, and July 2011, the US made 130 extradition requests to the some harrowing stories of cases and of the ordeals that UK, seven of which have been refused by UK courts, victims have been through. The hon. Members for 193WH Extradition24 NOVEMBER 2011 Extradition 194WH

[Mr Dominic Raab] some important points about the constitutional proprieties in the House of Commons, the value of extradition, of Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and for Brighton, Pavilion which we should not lose sight, and the case for a (Caroline Lucas) talked about the Babar Ahmad case in Chamber debate on a voteable motion. If it is appropriate, particular. Clearly it is of great concern that we have I should also like to recognise the presence and support had someone languishing in detention without trial for of the shadow Secretary of State for Justice, the right seven years. My hon. Friend the Member for South hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), even though Dorset (Richard Drax) talked about the Michael Turner he is constrained and cannot speak in the debate. case and his four months in detention in appalling I welcome the Minister’s speech. He has been a conditions, and my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond staunch defender of civil liberties and has given us some Park (Zac Goldsmith) spoke of another appalling case, useful clarification about his thinking. The Government that of Deborah Dark. I have met Deborah Dark; she is deserve some credit for commissioning the independent incredibly courageous. review, even though almost every Back-Bench speaker My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate has, I think, expressed reservations about it and has (Mr Burrowes) talked about the Gary McKinnon case urged the Government to look more carefully at the and the wider issues affecting the US treaty, and I join recommendations of the Joint Committee on Human him in paying tribute to Gary’s mother, Janis Sharp, Rights. who is a phenomenon and a force to be reckoned with. I wish to pick up on two points. The first is about My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick forum and the importance of its being decided by de Bois) talked about the case of Andrew Symeou, and judges, transparently and openly, and not by prosecutors, in particular made a point about the devastating impact who even with guidelines engage in a bit of haggling. on his family, which must be taken into account. Other The second point is about the European arrest warrant. colleagues raised broader issues about the operation of It is not just trivial cases. Some of the charges are very our extradition arrangements, and the hon. Member for serious, but the evidence is woefully lacking and there Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), with her considerable ought to be an opportunity at a very basic level to professional experience, focused on the practical reforms challenge it. we need. We have rare cross-party consensus on this issue. We My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie have a unique opportunity, and I hope that the Government Elphicke) said that Parliament is a backstop for the can take it. liberty of our own citizens, and we should never lose Question put and agreed to. sight of that. The right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) gave us a very cogent analysis of the Baker review, and the shadow Minister, 5.29 pm the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made Sitting adjourned. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

restraint. Therefore, the Government voted against this Written Ministerial in-year adjustment, in order to signal its ongoing dissatisfaction with EU financial management. Statements Any other business No substantive issues were raised under this agenda item. Thursday 24 November 2011

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT TREASURY

Housing Market Renewal (Legacy) ECOFIN (18 November 2011)

The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Shapps): The last Government’s housing market renewal Hoban): The Economic and Financial Affairs Council— pathfinder programme imposed large scale Whitehall Budget was held in Brussels on 18 November 2011. targets for demolition and clearance across the midlands The following items were discussed: and the north of England. The centrally driven schemes Preparation of the Conciliation Committee meeting with were often resented by local communities and created as the European Parliaments many problems as they solved. This top-down approach has not worked, often resulting in blighted areas where The Council reached a final position on the 2012 EU large scale demolition and clearance projects have been budget, as part of negotiations with the European stopped in their tracks, leaving some families isolated in Parliament via a concurrent Conciliation Committee abandoned streets. meeting. In particular, it was agreed that EU spending (payment appropriations) in 2012 should total ¤129.1 billion, There was widespread public controversy over an some ¤4.0 billion below the level advocated by the obsession with demolition over refurbishment, the lack European Parliament. The level of commitment of transparency of the pathfinder quangos, large profits appropriations, which limits the value of new contractual by developers, the demolition of our nation’s Victorian obligations to disburse EU funds in current or future heritage and perverse incentives being given to run years, was set at ¤147.2 billion for 2012. down neighbourhoods. As part of this process, the Council also adopted the The designation of areas for demolition effectively Letter of Amendment No. 2 to the Preliminary Draft increased deprivation in those areas; many social landlords Budget for 2012, which handles mainly administrative prepared the ground by “voiding” and boarding up costs relating to the expected accession of Croatia to properties. In turn, this undermined the housing market the EU, and the Letter of Amendment No. 3 to the as mortgage lenders were unwilling to lend in such Preliminary Draft Budget for 2012, which concerns areas. Areas were effectively managed into decline—to updates for estimated needs for agricultural expenditure make the notional benefits of wholesale demolition and international fisheries agreements. more attractive, ensuring a larger windfall gain for the state. Separately, the Council agreed to adopt Draft Amending Budget No. 6 to the General Budget 2011, which increases Local communities in some of the most deprived the level of EU funds by ¤200 million in 2011 in order areas of the country were told they would see to reflect the possibility of overspending on some a transformation of their areas, which in reality programmes during the remainder of this year. amounted to bulldozing buildings and knocking down neighbourhoods, pitting neighbour against neighbour Outcome of the Conciliation Committee meeting with the and leaving families trapped in abandoned streets. This European Parliaments was wrong. The Government supported the Council’s overall position As campaigning group Save Britain’s Heritage has on the 2012 EU budget, which delivers on the Government’s remarked: principal aim to freeze EU spending in real terms next year. This outcome delivers real budgetary restraint at “From the start, pathfinder showed an appetite for destruction....The EU-level, supports ongoing efforts to consolidate public classic English terraced house was demonised as “obsolete”. Whole neighbourhoods were declared surplus at the keystroke of a finances across many member states and respects the consultant’s laptop. Bureaucratic arrogance reduced communities principles of sound financial management. It also delivers to inmates of a “Zoo”—Zone of Opportunity—for house builders. on the Prime Minister’s letter from December last year, Statisticians assumed compulsory purchase and eviction for demolition signed jointly by France, Germany, Finland and the were acceptable measures for householders in a property-owning Netherlands, that called on the Council to step up democracy. Quite predictably, the cure turned out worse than the progressively its efforts to curb annual growth in EU disease”. spending. The coalition Government are taking a different, In the Government’s view, the Commission did not more localist, approach. We are putting residents, local present satisfactory forecasts to demonstrate that extra businesses and civic leaders in the driving seat and funds requested under Draft Amending Budget No. 6 providing them with local rewards and incentives to to the General Budget 2011 were necessary. Unfortunately, drive refurbishment and renewal. this is another example of poor EU budgeting. This On 31 January 2011,1 announced a £5 million growth Government are committed to improving financial and housing market renewal transition revenue fund. management in the EU, as well as delivering budgetary The primary aim of this fund was to help safeguard and 31WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS develop expertise and capacity in key growth and former However, it is important that we continue to support housing market renewal locations. housing and regeneration in places which have previously But I also want to implement measures to tackle the experienced severe housing market challenges. My “ghost streets”created by the last Government’s programme. Department and the Homes and Communities Agency On 9 May 2011, I announced a £30 million capital fund will continue to work closely with all former housing to help families trapped in abandoned streets resulting market renewal areas, whether or not eligible to bid for from the pathfinder demolition schemes. This funding the transition fund. was targeted at the five most challenged former housing In addition to ending the Whitehall obsession with market renewal areas—Merseyside, East Lancashire, demolitions, we are taking a series of steps to get empty North Staffordshire, Hull and Teesside—where the lowest homes back into beneficial use, as outlined in the quartile house prices have remained well below the Government’s housing strategy published on Monday average for that part of the country, and where surrounding 21 November. housing markets are weak. As part of their bid, local councils were asked to set out clear exit strategies showing how former housing market renewal commitments could be unwound or transferred to other regeneration schemes. HEALTH In response to the bids from local authorities, I have decided to make an additional £5.5 million available— Abortion (Costs) bringing the total fund to £35.5 million. This means that all families in streets or blocks that are more than 50% vacant will be helped. This £35.5 million fund will The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health be match funded by local councils in these five areas, (Anne Milton): In response to detailed enquiries about giving overall funding of £71 million. the information provided in answer to previous parliamentary questions on the cost of providing abortions Table of Payments * in the NHS in England the Department has concluded Council Total Capital Grant that it should change the methodology it uses to produce Hyndburn £2.3m estimates of the costs of abortions. Blackburn with Darwen £1.8m There are discrepancies between the activity figures Burnley £L4m for abortion returned to the chief medical officer and Pendle £L4m the data submitted as part of the reference cost collection, Hull £3.3m which is the Department’s wider collection of NHS cost Liverpool £9.3m and activity data. As a result of this, and the lack of Sefton £3.4m detailed information about the price NHS organisations Wirral £2.7m pay to independent sector providers for the provision of Stoke-on-Trent £3.6m abortion, we will, in future, estimate the costs to the Middlesbrough £2.4m NHS of providing abortion using the activity figures Hartlepool £2.0m provided to the chief medical officer and an average of Stockton-on-Tees £L5m the national tariff paid within the NHS for procedures Redcar and Cleveland £0.3m including abortion. This is likely to overestimate total Total Capital Payments £35.5m costs as we are aware that contracts with independent *Rounded to the nearest £0.1 million sector providers are generally at a lower price than the The payment of this transition funding and unwinding national tariff. of remaining housing market renewal commitments The table below shows the data used to produce therefore draws a line under the last Government’s previous estimates of abortion costs and the revised flawed programme. approach:

Previous Method New Method Time period: 2009-10 financial year Activity: 2010 calendar year Tariff: 2010-11 financial year Sources: Reference cost collection4,5,6 CMO abortion statistics6,7 Payments by Results Tariff Reported activity Unit Cost (£) Total cost (£m) Reported activity Tariff (£) Total cost (£m)

NHS1 118,000 695 83 64,000 680 44 Independent2 18,000 420 8 109,000 680 75 Total3 136,000 660 90 173,000 680 118 Notes: 1NHS provider 2NHS funded but delivered by independent sector provider 3The totals may not sum due to rounding 4Published on the Department’s website— http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_123459. The NHS data are from the “NHS trust and PCT combined reference cost schedules”. The independent data are from “Non NHS provider schedules”. The following HRGs have been included—MA17C, MA17D, MA18D, MA19B AND MA20Z. 5Not all spontaneous abortions are included (HRG MB08Z) 6England data 7The 2010-11 Combined Daycase/Elective and Non-Elective Tariffs have been used. 33WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

NHS Operating Framework for 2012-13 to allow the Department time to carefully consider the responses further, I can advise that there will be no increase in either November 2011 or April 2012. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns): Sir David Nicholson, the NHS chief executive, A final decision on the timing of future rises and a is publishing “The Operating Framework for the NHS full response to the consultation will, subject to Cabinet in England 2012-13” today, which sets out the priorities Committee clearance, be announced early next year. fornextyear. The NHS operating framework is an annual publication that outlines the business and planning arrangements Strategic Road Network (Review) for the NHS. It describes the national priorities, system levers and enablers needed for NHS organisations to maintain and improve the quality of services provided, The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): while delivering transformational change and maintaining As the House will know, as part of the spending review financial stability. settlement in October 2010, the then Secretary of State There are four key themes in the document for this agreed to carry out an independent review to examine year: whether Government have the right approach to operating, the NHS has put quality of care for older people at the head maintaining and enhancing the strategic road network. of its priority list for 2012-13. They will get better care and Alan Cook, the non-executive chairman of the Highways be treated with more dignity. And the friends and relatives Agency has led this review and has today published his who care for them at home will get more support; report. The report can be found at: www.dft.gov.uk/ the need to maintain the NHS’s continued strong performance publications/strategic-roads-network and an electronic on finance and service quality, including ensuring that the copy has been lodged with the House library. NHS constitution right to treatment within 18 weeks is met; the need to create the foundations for sustainable delivery I am grateful to Alan and his team for producing against the quality, innovation, prevention and productivity such a comprehensive report and welcome its publication. (QIPP) challenge; and The review report proposes some fundamental reforms the need to complete the transition to the new delivery to how the network should be managed, the role of system set out in “Equity and Excellence: Liberating the Government in relation to the network and the future NHS”. relationship between the Department and Highways The NHS operating framework sets out the practical Agency, including the agency’s status. steps that need to be taken to carry the NHS through a Although I must carefully consider the report before strong and stable transition over the next year, maintaining providing a full and informed response, I intend that high quality standards and financial grip, as we move my response be made as soon as possible, in order to towards the new modernised system envisaged in “Equity enable the agency and Department to move forward and excellence: Liberating the NHS” (Cm 7881). with certainty and confidence regarding any changes A copy of “The Operating Framework for the NHS that are to be made. My response will therefore be in England 2012-13” has been placed in the Library. completed in early 2012. Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote I recognise the potential benefits that greater financial Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. autonomy may bring and I am also pleased to see that Alan is of the view that road users’ needs are put at the HOME DEPARTMENT heart of considerations around specifying future performance requirements for the network. This is an Equality and Human Rights Commission important step in ensuring the network meets the real (Annual Report) needs of users as a key customer of the network.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department WORK AND PENSIONS (Mrs Theresa May): I am today laying before Parliament the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s 2010-11 UN Convention (Persons with Disabilities) annual report and accounts. Copies will be available in the Vote Office. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller): I am pleased to announce TRANSPORT that today the first United Kingdom Government report on implementation of the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities was submitted to the United Dartford-Thurrock River Crossing (Changes) Nations. This is an important milestone. The report sets out The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport the progress we have made across the United Kingdom (Mike Penning): On the 30 June the Department for and the approach to delivering the Government’s Transport launched a consultation on proposals to commitment to equality for disabled people. change the charging regime at the Dartford-Thurrock Going forward, the Government are now developing River Crossing. The consultation closed on 23 September. a new disability strategy to take forward the obligations The consultation made reference to increasing the of the UN convention, and to ensure disabled people charges during November 2011 and again in April 2012. have the opportunity to fulfil their potential. We will I am pleased with the number of responses received involve disabled people in this process and I will be and the level of engagement from local communities. In setting out my approach shortly, with a view to publishing recognition of the number of representations made and the strategy next year. 35WS Written Ministerial Statements24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

I am also pleased to announce that the Government number of recommendations to further improve the are withdrawing the UK’s reservation entered against process. Alongside the review, the Government are article 12.4 of the convention. This reservation was publishing their response setting out how we will implement entered because the existing social security benefit appointee Professor Harrington’s recommendations. system lacked appropriate safeguards in the arrangements to enable the appointment of a person to collect and The WCA is a key part of our ambitious welfare claim benefits on behalf of someone else. Following the reform programme. It seeks to identify people with the development and piloting of a proportionate system of potential to work so they can make more of their lives review to address this issue, which involved disabled and enhance those of their families, rather than abandoning people, we introduced the system in October this year them to a life on benefits. and it is being rolled out to cover all appointees. We Professor Harrington’s first review found that the WCA believe that we have met the requirements of article 12.4 was not broken but set out a series of recommendations and accordingly the reservation entered against this to improve each part of the process. In his second article will now be withdrawn. review he has found that the WCA has improved and commends the Department for the way it has implemented Work Capability Assessment the recommendations from his first review. He also highlights areas where further work is required, building on changes to date, to continue to improve the WCA. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions We are committed to continuing to review the WCA (Chris Grayling): The Government are pleased to announce and to make changes where necessary to ensure it is as the publication of Professor Malcolm Harrington’s second fair and effective as possible. We have invited Professor independent review of the Work Capability Assessment Harrington to continue in his current role as independent (WCA), the second of five such annual reviews required reviewer for a third and final year and to make further by statute. recommendations to us as appropriate by the end of 2012. This is a substantial and thorough review of the WCA which the Government welcome. It details how Copies of both documents will be available later the WCA has improved over the last year and makes a today in the Vote Office. 477W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 478W

A further £2 million in grants is being distributed Written Answers to next year. This overall £3 million for developing church growth in deprived areas is part of £12 million set aside Questions by the Archbishops’ Council and Church Commissioners for research and development work in 2011-13 and is in support of the strategic goals set out by the Archbishop Thursday 24 November 2011 of Canterbury in his November 2010 Presidential Address to the new General Synod. The Church Commissioners and Archbishops’ Council have for many years earmarked money specifically for LEADER OF THE HOUSE mission development; while the details of this funding stream are new, it is part of the continuing commitment Departmental Official Photographs to ensure that the money generated by the historic endowment of the Commissioners is available to meet Mr Thomas: To ask the Leader of the House how ‘opportunity’ as well as ‘need’. many official photographs have been taken of (a) Ministers Projects awarded funding for developing church growth in and (b) senior officials for use in Government publications deprived areas (October 2011) since May 2010; how many of his staff are expected to Diocese of Birmingham: A proposal to train Mission Apprentices undertake photography of the ministerial and senior combining structured training and mission experience in deprived leadership team as part of their duties; and if he will parishes. make a statement. [82590] Diocese of Bradford: ‘Sorted’ Youth Evangelism Project— development of an existing successful youth evangelism project Sir George Young: One official photograph of myself working with multi-cultural communities in deprived areas. and one of the Deputy Leader of the House, my hon. Diocese of Canterbury: ‘Ignite’ Project, Cliftonville—employing Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), a missioner to have been taken for use in official Government publications replicate an established model of community ministry from a since May 2010. No members of my staff are tasked deprived neighbourhood into another area. with taking official photographs of the ministerial or Diocese of Coventry: Mission Leadership—training and mentoring leadership team as part of their duties. of young mission leaders, based in deprived parishes showing good levels of growth. Diocese of Leicester: Eyres Monsell and New Parks Parish Public Reading Stage Development Project—a proposal to augment existing growth, using mission workers to help develop lay ministry in two Anglo- Sadiq Khan: To ask the Leader of the House when he Catholic parishes with very high levels of multiple deprivation. plans to bring forward proposals for a public reading stage for Bills. [81990] ATTORNEY-GENERAL Sir George Young: The Government are currently reviewing the operation of the public reading stage of GPT: Corruption the Protection of Freedoms Bill, and will then bring forward proposals for future public reading stages in Dr Huppert: To ask the Attorney-General by what due course. date he plans to determine whether a full investigation by the Serious Fraud Office into allegations of bribery by GPT should be allowed to proceed. [82735]

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) can confirm that a number of allegations have been Churches: Community Relations made against GPT Special Project Management Ltd and that these allegations are being considered by them. Gordon Henderson: To ask the hon. Member for The SFO has engaged with EADS, the parent company Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, of GPT Special Project Management Ltd, on how these what steps the Church Commissioners are taking to issues are to be addressed. encourage churches to form closer links with their local The decision on whether to proceed with an investigation communities. [82261] is a matter for the Director of the SFO.

Tony Baldry: The Church has two new initiatives which it has launched recently; the first is a research HOME DEPARTMENT project into new mission projects. The Archbishops’ Council and Church Commissioners have distributed Animal Experiments £1 million as part of a nationwide move to help develop successful church growth projects in deprived areas. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for the The £100,000 grants have been distributed to 10 projects Home Department pursuant to the answer of 8 November across nine dioceses where existing activity has a proven 2011, Official Report, columns 166-8W, on animal track record of growth. The funds are part of a wider experiments, how many enquiries were made in relation research and development programme, a key aim of to (a) project and (b) personal licences including those which is to ensure projects are evaluated to provide which did not lead to a formal application in each of evidence of what is proving effective. the last three years. [82488] 479W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 480W

Lynne Featherstone: We do not record the information Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home requested, only the number of formal licence applications. Department how many people were extradited to the Typically most applications for licences granted under UK from each EU member state under a European the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act will involve Arrest Warrant in 2010-11. [79004] discussions between the applicants and the Animals in Science Regulation Unit Inspectorate. Damian Green [holding answer 7 November 2011]: In 2010-11, 134 people were surrendered to the UK under Arrest Warrants an European Arrest Warrant (EAW). This included 133 extradited from other European Union member states and one from Gibraltar. The following table breaks this Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home down by member state. Department how many (a) people and (b) UK citizens were extradited from the UK to each EU member state Country Total under a European Arrest Warrant in 2010-11. [79003] Austria 2 Damian Green [holding answer 7 November 2011]: Belgium 2 The information is as follows: Bulgaria 1 Cyprus 1 (a) In 2010-11 1,173 people were surrendered from Czech Republic 3 the UK under an European Arrest Warrant (EAW). Of Estonia 1 these, 48 were UK citizens. The following table breaks Finland 1 this down by member state. France 14 Germany 4 Country Surrenders Gibraltar 1 Austria 1 Hungary 1 Belgium 10 Ireland 22 Bulgaria 1 Italy 2 Cyprus 1 Lithuania 3 Czech Republic 51 Malta 2 Estonia 3 Netherlands 26 Finland 2 Poland 3 France 10 Portugal 2 Germany 27 Romania 4 Greece 9 Spain 38 Hungary 32 Sweden 1 Ireland 21 Total 134 Italy 12 Latvia 35 Asylum Lithuania 100 Malta 2 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Netherlands 17 Department how many cases the UK Border Agency’s Poland 761 Case Assurance and Audit Unit has considered in each Portugal 7 month since July 2011. [79434] Romania 35 Slovakia 16 Damian Green: From July 2011 to October 2011 the Spain 17 UK Border Agency’s (UKBA’s) Case Assurance and Sweden 3 Audit Unit has considered cases relating to 6,651 cases: Total 1,173 July: 1,753 cases August: 1,471 cases (b) Out of the total 1,173 surrenders from the UK in September: 1,785 cases 2010-11, 48 were UK citizens. They were surrendered to the following European Union member states: October: 1,642 cases. Source: Country Surrenders Local Management information provided by UKBA, North West Region Planning and MI team. It is not a national statistic. As Belgium 3 such it should be treated as provisional and therefore subject to Czech Republic 1 change. France 2 Germany 7 Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Greece 8 the Home Department what steps her Department is Ireland 4 taking to maintain the current average time for processing Malta 1 an asylum case. [79440] Netherlands 5 Poland 1 Damian Green: We have scrapped the system which Spain 16 encouraged case owners to concentrate on files that were easy to resolve and discouraged them from tackling Total 48 older cases. We have introduced a new performance 481W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 482W framework consisting of a wide range of performance photographs were taken of Baroness Browning when indicators which will help us to monitor the overall she joined the ministerial team in May 2011. The images health of the asylum system. are available on flickr for use by the press and public. Reform of the asylum system has already begun, In January 2011, official photographs were taken of through our Asylum Improvement Programme which is the new Permanent Secretary. exploring and implementing ways to improve the efficiency Members of the communication team occasionally and speed of the asylum system while maintaining and take photographs of Ministers or senior officials on improving quality. We have already seen improvement visits, though this is not a formal part of their role. outcomes from this project. The asylum system now consistently delivers in excess Departmental Procurement of 50% and often above 60% of decisions within 30 days of application, up from 21% in the May 2009 cohort. In Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the excess of 90% of cases have a decision within six months. Home Department how many meetings she has had Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control with representatives of (a) social enterprises, (b) charities, (c) large private sector businesses and (d) small and medium-sized private sector businesses since May 2010; Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for and if she will make a statement. [75710] the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 31 October 2011, Official Report, column 408W, on Damian Green: Information on meetings with external bovine tuberculosis: disease control, if she will reach an interest groups is published by the Cabinet Office and estimate of the costs of any police response and associated can be found at: costs related to badger culling as part of her discussions http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/non-personal-data/ with the Association of Chief Police Officers. [79411] hospitality-business-expenses/ Nick Herbert: We are in discussion with the Association Entry Clearances of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs regarding the police response and associated costs related to badger Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for culling. the Home Department how many holders of (a) Tier 1 and (b) Tier 2 visas previously held Tier 4 visas on Civil Disorder (i) 1 September 2011, (ii) 1 September 2010 and (iii) 1 September 2009. [79439] David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether she has any plans to bring Damian Green: The information requested is not forward proposals for the repeal of section 2 (1) and (2) available in the required format and can be provided of the Riot (Damages) Act 1886. [69760] only at disproportionate cost.

Nick Herbert: The Riot Damages Act is currently Entry Clearances: Domestic Service under review. Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for the Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many of the migrant domestic the Home Department what progress is being made workers who were granted settlement in 2009 originally with the review into policing methods following the entered the UK on a (a) domestic worker (visitor), (b) disturbances of August 2011. [70489] domestic worker (other) and (c) domestic worker (diplomat) visa. [75671] Nick Herbert: The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Damian Green: We are unable to specify the visa Maidenhead (Mrs May), has asked Her Majesty’s categories that individuals granted Indefinite Leave to Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) to look at the Remain (ILR) originally entered the UK on, as this disorder, and for its findings to inform and support information is not held centrally by the UK Border police guidance, tactics and public order policing resources. Agency. Departmental Photographs In 2009, 7911 individuals were granted ILR as Overseas Domestic Workers in a Private Household. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the In June 2011, the Government launched a consultation Home Department how many official photographs have into, “Employment-Related Settlement, Tier 5 and Overseas been taken of (a) Ministers and (b) senior officials in Domestic Workers”This consultation document proposes her Department for use in Government publications changes to the settlement rights of those coming to the since May 2010; how many staff of her Department are UK to work as well as changes to Tier 5 of the points-based expected to undertake photography of the ministerial system and the rules for overseas domestic workers. and senior leadership team as part of their duties; and if Analysis to support the consultation outcome is due she will make a statement. [82571] to be published in the near future. 1 Figure taken from published Immigration Statistics April-June Damian Green: Official photographs were taken of 2011 Ministers during their first few days in office in May http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- 2010. These are used for organisation charts, departmental statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ publications and websites. Subsequently, official immigration-q2-2011/ 483W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 484W

Entry Clearances: Overseas Students existing civil servants can be recruited. As at 21 November 2011 the Identity and Passport Service (IPS) was actively Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for recruiting for 114 vacancies, broken down as follows: the Home Department from which colleges she has 52 non-operational vacancies, largely based in London; received representations on changes to the Tier 4 visa 62 operational vacancies, of which: system; on what dates; if she will publish a summary of five to be based at the new Newport Customer Service Centre, such representations; and what steps she proposes to six to replace natural turnover largely at the Peterborough area take in response to those representations. [79710] processing centre and records office, 51 to be based around the country at a number of different Damian Green: The Government held a public interview offices and flexible teams. consultation on the student immigration system from Of these, we currently have 31 advertisements covering December 2010 to January 2011. Over 30,851 responses 64 of the vacancies on the civil service jobs website for were received through an online survey and over 300 were existing civil servants only with the remainder having received by email or post during the consultation period. proceeded to the post application stages. In March 2011 the Government published the questionnaire results, which summarised the representations received, alongside a Statement of Intent setting out proposals Illegal Immigrants: Frontex for reforms to Tier 4. There has been additional ongoing correspondence received from colleges in relation to Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for these changes. the Home Department what estimate she has made of The Government responded to the concerns raised the number of illegal migrants that were likely to have by the sector and made a number of changes to the travelled to the UK that have been intercepted by proposals prior to changing the immigration rules. Frontex in each year since it was established; and if she will make a statement. [82498] Forensic Science Service Damian Green: The role of Frontex is to support the border management authorities of states through the Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the coordination of operational activities. There is no distinction Home Department whether she is taking any steps to made between the numbers of migrants intercepted by ensure that staff currently working for the Forensic officials of the host state as opposed to those intercepted Science Service (FSS) are retained within the forensic by guest officers from other states taking part in a science industry after the closure of the FSS. [79273] Frontex-co-ordinated operation. Undocumented migrants may be questioned about the route they have taken, James Brokenshire [holding answer 7 November 2011]: facilitators used and their ultimate destination. Information The Home Office continues to support the orderly gathered remains the property of the state hosting the transition of work from the Forensic Science Service Frontex operation and it is therefore not possible to (FSS). As part of this some of the current FSS staff will estimate how many of those intercepted would have move to a range of other providers of forensic science travelled to the UK. services. We have committed to update the House of Commons Immigration Science and Technology Committee on this matter in June 2012. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department how many immigration case files have been Home Department what estimate she has made of the open for (a) one year, (b) two years, (c) three years, future costs of maintaining the National Forensic (d) four years and (e) five years. [79438] Science Archive. [79274] Damian Green: The number of immigration case files James Brokenshire [holding answer 7 November 2011]: that have been open for: We are working closely with the Forensic Science Service (a) Less than one year is 101,428 and key partners to ensure that the Forensic Science (b) Between one and two years is 6,327 Service archive continues to meet the requirements of (c) Between two and three years is 8,057 the criminal justice system. We will rigorously test costs (d) Between three and four years is 6,422 to ensure the archive provides good value for money for (e) Between four and five years is 4,064 the taxpayer. A full business case is currently being This includes all open asylum and temporary and finalised. permanent migration cases. Identity and Passport Service: Vacancies All figures quoted are internal management information only and are subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many vacancies there are in each office of the Immigration and Passport Service; Independent Police Complaints Commission and how many jobs in each office are being advertised. [82490] Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what resource funding she plans to Damian Green: As part of the civil service recruitment allocate to the Independent Police Complaints Commission freeze, there is no external recruitment of staff. Only for the financial year 2012-13. [81349] 485W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 486W

Nick Herbert: The Independent Police Complaints TRANSPORT Commission has received an indicative resource budget from the Home Office of £31.45 million for 2012-13. Air Passenger Duty Final budgets for 2012-13 will be confirmed in the new year. Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions her Department has had with HM Members: Correspondence Treasury on the future of air passenger duty; and what her policy is on the abolition of air passenger duty after Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the the extension of the EU Emissions Trading System to Home Department when the hon. Member for Walsall the aviation sector. [82448] North will receive a reply to his letter of 31 May 2011 on the Winsor review, reference M10105.11. [62238] Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has regular discussions with HM Treasury on a range of aviation Nick Herbert [holding answer 27 June 2011]: I wrote issues. Decisions on matters concerning taxation are to the hon. Member on 3 October 2011. taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne). National Policing Improvement Agency The Government remain committed to the inclusion of aviation in the EU Emissions Trading System from John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1 January 2012. Home Department whether she has plans to involve the private sector in the provision of (a) police IT and (b) Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for police training following the abolition of the National Transport what discussions she and her Department Policing Improvement Agency. [81257] have had with HM Treasury over the future of air passenger duty. [83146] Nick Herbert: The private sector is already involved in the provision of police IT and police training. We will Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has regular look for further efficiencies and value for money from discussions with HM Treasury on a range of aviation services currently provided by the National Policing issues, including air passenger duty. Decisions on matters Improvement Agency. concerning taxation are taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton Police Commissioners (Mr Osborne). Air Travel Organisers’ Licence Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the oral answer by the Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Prime Minister of 7 September 2011, Official Report, Transport with reference to her Department’s planned column 350, on police commissioners, whether local reforms of the ATOL scheme, what the evidence basis authorities will be liable for the costs of elections for is for her Department’s conclusion that a two day police commissioners. [71956] Flight-plus buying window closely resembles a package in the eyes of consumers. [82599] Nick Herbert [holding answer 15 September 2011]: The full cost of elections for Police and Crime Mrs Villiers: The purpose of reform is to provide Commissioners will neither fall on police forces nor on greater clarity to consumers about whether their flight local authorities. inclusive holiday is ATOL protected or not. The aim of including Flight Plus in ATOL is to protect those UK Border Agency: Bullying holidays that are very similar in content and appearance to package holidays but are outside the legal definition Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the of a package holiday. The Department proposed a Home Department how many bullying and harassment short time period for customer requests for Flight Plus cases are currently being pursued by UK Border Agency components as this would be most consistent with this staff. [79778] aim. Views on the timing for consumer requests for holiday Damian Green: 31 cases of bullying and harassment components were sought in the ATOL reform consultation are being investigated by the UK Border Agency at this (23 June to 15 September 2011). We are considering the time. responses and I plan to announce the final decisions for ATOL reform later this year or early next year. UK Border Agency: Resignations Aviation Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many staff with between 15 Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport and 20 years’ service have resigned from the UK Border if she will assess the findings of the report by the British Agency since May 2010. [79779] Chambers of Commerce on aviation, entitled Flying in the Face of Jobs and Growth. [82449] Damian Green: The number of staff with between 15 and 20 years service who have resigned from the Mrs Villiers: The Government issued an aviation Border Agency since May 2010 up to 31 October 2011 policy scoping document in March 2011, calling for is 12. evidence on a range of strategic issues. The British 487W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 488W

Chambers of Commerce produced the report ‘Flying in Coastguard Service: Finance the Face of Jobs and Growth’ in response to the scoping document. We are reviewing the findings of this report Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport alongside the many contributions to the debate about what the change has been in levels of staffing costs for our future aviation policy. We will issue a Sustainable the Coastguard Service since May 2010. [81191] Framework for UK Aviation for public consultation in spring 2012. Mike Penning: The staffing costs for coastguards employed at Maritime Rescue Coordination Centres for Aviation: Business May 2010 compared to October 2011 are set out as follows:

Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for Staffing costs (£) Transport what discussions she has had with representatives May 2010 1,167,307.44 of (a) business and (b) aviation groups on aviation’s October 2011 1,126,625.27 role in supporting business. [82936]

Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State for Transport, Driving Tests: Bury my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), and I have engaged with business and aviation Mr Nuttall: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport representatives on a range of aviation issues. The when the driving test centre will re-open in Bury. [82345] Government want to see a successful aviation sector which facilitates economic growth and addresses its Mike Penning: The driving test centre at Bury is environmental impacts. We are committed to issuing a scheduled to re-open in February 2012. Sustainable Framework for UK Aviation for public Fuels: EU Action consultation in spring 2012. Details of ministerial meetings with external organisations Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for are published quarterly and can be found at: Transport what her Department’s policy is on the proposed http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/ministerial-transparency/ EU Directive on fuel quality. [82325] #meetings Norman Baker: Elements of the Fuel Quality Directive, Aviation: Regulation dealing with the composition of petrol, diesel and non-road gas oil are implemented by the Motor Fuel (Composition Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport and Content) Regulations 1999 as amended. These what progress she has made in reducing the burden of regulations were most recently amended at the end of regulation in the aviation sector. [82412] 2010 to implement amendments made by Directive 2009/30/EC. These included reducing the maximum Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport permissible sulphur content of non-road gas oil, introducing what progress she has made in reducing the burden of maximum permissible manganese content limits for regulation in the aviation sector. [82447] petrol and diesel and increasing the maximum permissible ethanol content of petrol. These are mandatory Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements which the UK was obliged to transpose Transport what progress has been made in reducing the by the end of 2010 in order to help reduce air pollution regulatory burden affecting the aviation sector. [83139] and remove barriers to increased use of biofuels. I also refer the hon. Member to my written statement Mrs Villiers: The Government are currently undertaking of 7 November 2011, Official Report, column 8WS, which a review of the existing stock of regulation with a view explains our proposals for implementation of article 7a to removing over burdensome regulatory legislation. of the Fuel Quality Directive and to my answer given As part of this process, in May next year the public on 31 October 2011, Official Report, column 415W, to and businesses will be invited to submit ideas for regulations the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). in the aviation sector that might be amended or revoked so as to reduce their burden on the industry or to the Heathrow Airport public as a whole. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Bus Services: Greater Manchester Transport how many times operational freedoms at Heathrow airport were deployed in the latest period for which figures are available. [76420] Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what her policy is on greater bus regulation Mrs Villiers: During the period 1 November, when in Greater Manchester. [81545] the trial began, and 21 November 2011, Tactically Enhanced Arrivals Measures (TEAM) were deployed on 1, 4, 5, 17 Norman Baker: We encourage local authorities such and 18 November as part of the operational freedoms as Transport for Greater Manchester and bus operators trial. In total, the operational freedoms version of TEAM to work in partnership. Local authorities also have was used to land 51 aircraft on the runway designated powers to pursue statutory Quality Contracts and Quality for departures during this period. Partnerships if appropriate. I intend to wait for the outcome of the Competition Commission inquiry into BAA publishes daily data on the use of these measures the local bus market outside London before deciding on at the following web address: the need for any changes to the regulatory regime. http://heathrowtrial.com 489W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 490W

Liverpool Port FTE Organisation 1 May 2010 31 October 2011 Change Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment she has made of the potential Holyhead 22.00 23.00 1.00 economic effect of the installation of a post-panamax MRCC terminal in the Port of Liverpool. [82986] Humber 27.00 25.00 -2.00 MRCC Liverpool 21.50 20.50 -1.00 Mike Penning: The ports industry is a market-led MRCC commercial sector and the Department does not normally London 7.00 11.00 4.00 conduct or commission studies of the economic impacts Coastguard of individual port projects. Milford MRCC 24.00 23.00 -1.00 Railways Portland 25.14 22.14 -3.00 MRCC Shetland 24.14 18.14 -6.00 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport MRCC what the existing capacity on the Greater Anglia rail Solent MRCC 28.65 25.65 -3.00 franchise is; and what estimate she has made of the Stornoway 21.22 23.15 1.93 capacity that Abellio will provide under the newly-awarded MRCC franchise. [82167] Swansea 27.00 22.00 -5.00 MRCC Mrs Villiers: The current operator of the Greater Thames MRCC 22.00 19.00 -3.00 Anglia franchise had planned to deploy 236 (out of a Yarmouth 23.02 19.78 -3.24 fleet size of 260) four-car electric multiple units (EMUs) MRCC in daily service with effect from the December 2011 Grand total 446.95 412.07 -34.88 timetable change. Abellio plans to deliver the same service with 232 (out of a fleet size of 251) units. However, the small number of trains that will be Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport reduced in length as a result, are trains on which crowding what the average number of staff (a) on duty and (b) is unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future. employed at each coastguard station was in each of the last five years. [81267] Railways: Fares Mike Penning: The information is as follows. Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if she will consider tightening the provisions (a) The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) of rail franchise agreements to ensure increases in ticket does not hold records of the average number of staff on prices result in a corresponding rise in standards of rail duty over the last five years. Staffing levels for each service. [81878] watch are evaluated to meet the need that the operational activity demands by each Maritime Rescue Coordination Mrs Villiers: The Government’s policy is to move Centre (MRCC). An approximate figure for the whole towards longer and more flexible franchises. We believe of Her Majesty’s Coastguard for all MRCCs is: this will allow train operators to drive up the quality of services for passengers. Summer Winter Rescue Services: Manpower Day 75 60 Night 60 60 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (b) The MCA does not keep average numbers of what changes in staffing levels have taken place at each staff employed at each MRCC, however the numbers of coastguard station since May 2010. [81192] staff employed (full-time equivalent) at each MRCC over the last five years are: Mike Penning: The following tables show the difference in full-time equivalent (FTE) employed at each Maritime As at 31 October each year Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) in May 2010 and October 2011. Organisation 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 Aberdeen 30.22 25.00 30.00 29.50 25.50 FTE MRCC Organisation 1 May 2010 31 October 2011 Change Belfast 23.70 21.70 21.14 20.14 21.14 MRCC Aberdeen 29.00 25.50 -3.50 Brixham 21.57 22.00 22.00 20.00 20.50 MRCC MRCC Belfast MRCC 21.14 21.14 0.00 Clyde 31.22 27.57 29.57 27.64 27.57 Brixham 23.00 20.50 -2.50 MRCC MRCC Dover 29.14 25.14 31.07 32.50 26.00 Clyde MRCC 28.14 27.57 -0.57 MRCC Dover MRCC 31.00 26.00 -5.00 Falmouth 26.68 25.14 27.00 27.00 25.00 Falmouth 27.00 25.00 -2.00 MRCC MRCC Forth 20.00 20.00 19.00 14.00 14.00 Forth MRCC 15.00 14.00 -1.00 MRCC 491W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 492W

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) has As at 31 October each year assessed the safety risks in relation to HM Coastguard’s Organisation 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 current operation on a national basis and how these are Holyhead 22.70 ¦22.14 22.00 20.00 23.00 mitigated by the modernisation proposals. The MCA MRCC has also assessed the impact of the modernisation proposals Humber 29.00 27.00 29.00 28.00 25.00 on HM Coastguard’s capability to deliver its national MRCC service in the future. Liverpool 21.57 22.57 23.07 21.50 20.50 These assessments, as well as a location impact MRCC assessment, coastguard centre rationale and supporting London 5.00 8.00 6.00 6.00 11.00 tables showing factors taken into consideration in the Coastguard proposed choice of coastguard centres, are available in Milford 22.14 21.57 21.50 21.00 23.00 MRCC the Libraries of the House, and on the MCA’s website: Portland 24.14 23.57 24.14 25.14 22.14 www.dft.gov.uk/mca MRCC I refer the hon. Member to my oral statement of Shetland 20.70 19.70 19.14 20.14 18.14 22 November 2011, Official Report, columns 161-64. MRCC Solent 26.00 27.00 28.86 27.65 25.65 Road Traffic MRCC StornowayMRCC 23.65 23.65 20.22 23.22 23.15 Swansea 28.00 26.00 27.00 26.00 22.00 Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for MRCC Transport which Highways Agency controlled A-roads Thames 25.07 21.50 23.00 21.00 19.00 see the biggest increase in traffic during the summer. MRCC [82342] Yarmouth 24.22 21.22 24.22 20.00 19.78 MRCC Mike Penning: At a national level, traffic on the Total 454.69 430.45 447.93 430.43 412.07 strategic road network, including both motorways and A-roads, tends to follow a consistent annual pattern. Rescue Services: South Wales Starting from the lowest levels of traffic during December, levels then rise gradually, month on month, to a summer Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for peak during July and August, before slowly declining Transport what assessment she has made of the effect of again through to December. the closure of Swansea coastguard station on coastguard Traffic on individual routes, however, is subject to services around Newport. [79853] different levels of seasonal change. Comparing the combined traffic levels for the summer months of June, Mike Penning [holding answer 14 November 2011]: July and August, for ’Highways Agency controlled A-roads’, No individual assessment has been made on the effect with the preceding three months of March, April and on coastguard services around Newport in respect of May, the routes which experienced the greatest percentage the proposed closure of Swansea Maritime Rescue increases in vehicle miles travelled (VMT) are shown in Co-ordination Centre. the following table:

VMT Road March to May June to August Increase Percentage increase Rank

A30 296,319,601 359,728,530 63,408,929 21 1 A303 220,000,697 251,898,755 31,898,058 14 2 A120 83,734,035 93,645,820 9,911,784 12 3 A494 10,490,386 11,614,209 1,123,823 11 4 A696 6,389,445 7,057,473 668,028 10 15 A35 76,465,938 84,227,753 7,761,815 10 1— A31 113,486,280 124,709,656 11,223,376 10 1— A458 8,715,964 9,548,557 832,593 10 1— 1 Indicates a brace.

If, however, the ranking is based on actual vehicle miles travelled rather than percentage increases, the pattern is somewhat different:

VMT Road March to May June to August Increase Percentage increase Rank

A30 296,319,601 359,728,530 63,408,929 21 1 A1 714,657,865 766,531,909 51,874,044 7 2 A303 220,000,697 251,898,755 31,898,058 14 3 A34 301,295,002 328,674,164 27,379,163 9 4 493W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 494W

VMT Road March to May June to August Increase Percentage increase Rank

A14 540,486,628 565,139,730 24,653,102 5 5

Roads: Fees and Charges It should not be assumed that the Department will be in a position to provide additional funding following Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for any future severe weather event. It remains the responsibility Transport what assessment she has made of the effect of local highway authorities to prioritise their overall of petrol prices on public support for road charging resources and build in appropriate resilience as part of schemes. [82941] their overall maintenance programmes. As regards roads controlled by the Highways Agency, Mike Penning: No such assessment has been made. the agency has a comprehensive road surfacing programme The Government have no plans to introduce general to assist in the reduction of damage to the strategic road pricing, other than charging for heavy goods vehicles. road network caused by adverse winter weather. However, the agency does not separately identify or estimate the Roads: Housing maintenance costs directly associated with winter damage.

Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Roads: Snow and Ice Transport what progress her Department has made on Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for facilitating the adoption by local authorities of residential Transport what steps she is taking to assist motorists in roads in new housing developments since June 2010. preparation for winter weather. [82733] [82645] Norman Baker: Local Highway authorities have a Norman Baker: Following discussions with representatives duty under section 41 of the Highways Act 1980 to of local authorities and the home building sector, the maintain the local highways network in their area. In Department has decided at this stage to encourage local relation to snow, a local authority’s section 41 duty authorities to make best use of the existing powers at includes the requirement their disposal. In particular, we are working to finalise “to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that safe passage some model planning conditions that could assist local along a highway is not endangered by snow or ice”. authorities in ensuring that new roads are built to an Central Government have no powers to intervene in acceptable standard and that arrangements are put in these matters in relation to local authority roads—winter place for their ongoing maintenance. We also believe service planning and salt stock supplies are the responsibility there is a role for further guidance and dissemination of of the respective highway authorities. The Department good practice on these issues, but this would be a matter is working closely with the local highways sector on for expert practitioners in local authorities to progress ensuring that local highway authorities are prepared for in partnership with the home building sector. We will any severe winter weather. keep matters under review. In respect of the Highways Agency, as a result of lessons learned and continuous improvement over a Roads: Repairs and Maintenance number of seasons, the agency has developed a robust winter service to assist motorists in the event of severe Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for winter weather. Transport how much her Department has spent on This includes: a fleet of 500 state of the art winter road repairs following the adverse weather of winter vehicles on stand-by, supported by tried and tested 2010-11; and how much she expects her Department to winter resilience plans; an adequate supply of operational spend during the 2011-12 winter. [82598] and strategic salt stock in place at the start of the season; a Freight Snow Warning System in place to help Norman Baker: The then Secretary of State for Transport, the road haulage industry and drivers of goods and the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge high-sided vehicles respond to warnings of severe weather (Mr Hammond), wrote in March to all English local or snow; an improved strategic incident management highway authorities to inform them of their share of (Crisis Management Procedure) system that has been the additional £200 million announced in the March developed and implemented. 2011 Budget. This funding was in recognition of the The Highways Agency has also improved its winter damage to roads caused by exceptionally severe weather, communications to provide traffic advice to motorists, as December 2010 was the coldest for 100 years. The including: greater adoption and wider use of Variable breakdown of funding allocation by local authority can Messaging Signs to help manage the strategic road be found at: network by providing advanced warning to drivers of https://nds.coi.gov.uk/ImageLibrary/ emergencies and incidents; the use social media sites to DownloadMedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=3444 advise motorists of any major traffic incidents; undertaking The Department is also providing £3 billion over the an extensive stakeholder engagement programme. four years from 2011-12 to local highway authorities in The agency has also published advice to road users England for roads for which they are responsible, as this winter, in a series of information notes under the well as providing resource funding of £6 million for a theme, “Make time for winter”. These notes can be programme to assist local authorities to deliver their found online at: highways maintenance more effectively and efficiently. www.highways.gov.uk/winter 495W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 496W

Rolling Stock Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to my answer given on 3 October 2011, Official Report, column 1393W. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Tugboats (1) when she expects private finance arrangements for (a) the Intercity Express Programme and (b) Thameslink rolling stock to be completed; [82166] Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps she plans to take to ensure that (a) vessels in (2) when she expects to sign the Intercity Express distress will be assisted, (b) pollution will be countered Programme rolling stock contract. [82168] and (c) fires at sea will be tackled in British territorial waters after the removal of emergency towing vessels. Mrs Villiers: Both the Intercity Express Programme [80628] and Thameslink rolling stock contracts are targeted to reach financial close in the new year. Private financing Mike Penning: The national response to vessels that of the deals will continue to be arranged up until the get into distress for any reason, including fire, and contracts are signed. maritime counter pollution will continue to be co-ordinated by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency acting through Shipping: Safety Her Majesty’s Coastguard. Additionally, Her Majesty’s Coastguard has long- Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport standing arrangements with ports, harbours and tug for what reasons her Department considers that the brokers for the supply of tugs in an emergency situation responsibility for ensuring operational safety of ships is using the Coastguard Agreement for Salvage and Towing a matter for which the commercial shipping industry (CAST). should be wholly responsible. [80633] Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mike Penning: The international conventions for the what representations she has received from the Emergency Safety of Life at Sea provide that vessel operators must Towing Vessel Working Group; and what steps she is ensure the operational safety of their vessels through taking to implement its funding recommendations. the application of a Safety Management System, in accordance with the International Safety Management [80630] Code. Among other things this requires companies to Mike Penning: The Shipping Minister met with operate their ships in accordance with mandatory rules representatives of the Emergency Towing Vessel (ETV) and regulations and in such a way that prevents human Working Group in Inverness on 25 July 2011. The injuries or loss of life, and avoids damage to the marine purpose of the meeting was to hear from the Group environment. about the progress it had made to identify the means to The responsibility of Government is to ensure that fund ETV provision, without any recourse to central companies arrange their activities in compliance with Government funding, for those areas where local people the Code. perceived the existence of a local problem. If the Group had been able to offer a reasonably certain prospect of Shipping: Security secure funding, then my Department would have considered a short extension to the ETV provision in order to allow Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the group some time to finalise their local arrangements. if she will issue guidance to maritime insurers and ship In the event the Group was not able to demonstrate owners on the provision of private on-board security. that it had been able to identify any means of local [82321] funding and so was unable to make any recommendations that were sufficient to satisfy me that the ETV provision Mike Penning: Yes, the Department for Transport is should be extended in any of the four locations. finalising interim guidance to UK flagged shipping on the use of armed guards to defend against the threat of Since 1 October 2011, the Scotland Office has been piracy in exceptional circumstances. I expect this to be responsible for leading efforts to secure a long-term published by the end of November. replacement for the Emergency Towing Vessels (ETV) service in waters around Scotland surrounding the Northern Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock and Western Isles.

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what information her Department holds on when the WALES Thameslink rolling stock carriages will be available for testing. [82164] Airports: Weather

Mrs Villiers: The Department is currently conducting Mr Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales commercial negotiations with Siemens plc and Cross whether her Department has made an assessment of the London Trains, and the precise timescales for the testing preparedness of Welsh airport operators for extreme and delivery of carriages are being finalised as part of winter conditions. [81532] this process. Mr David Jones: I will be meeting with the managing Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport director of Cardiff airport today and will be discussing how many Thameslink rolling stock carriages she plans a number of issues including their preparedness for to introduce in each year up to December 2018. [82165] extreme winter conditions and the lessons learned from 497W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 498W last winter’s severe weather. I will be seeking assurance Mr Swire: The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, that the airport will be able to respond appropriately to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire any future events of a similar nature, taking into account (Mr Paterson), and I have regular meetings with ministerial operational and safety factors. The Civil Aviation Authority colleagues on issues affecting Northern Ireland, including is monitoring all airport operators’ progress in improving mobile coverage. I have met with the Minister for Culture, their resilience. Communications and Creative Industries, my hon. Friend It is of course a matter for the Welsh Government to the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), to discuss this ensure that appropriate plans are in place to keep the matter on several occasions and I am a member of the transport routes leading to the airport functioning. cross-Government Ministerial Group on Broadband which ensures that we take a joined-up approach to the delivery of the coalition Government’s broadband policy Social Services: Cross Border Cooperation and projects. I have also discussed this matter with the Department for Enterprise and Investment Minister Mr Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Arlene Foster. what recent discussions she has had with Ministers in Contacts with commercial telecoms providers are the Welsh Government on cross-border issues relating taken forward by DCMS or the Northern Ireland Executive to social care. [81531] as appropriate as they have the lead in such matters. Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my The allocation of the £150 million announced by the right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the (Mrs Gillan), and I have regular discussions with Ministers Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), to increase mobile in the Welsh Government and ministerial colleagues in coverage will be discussed at future meetings of the Government about the future of social care provision. cross-Government Ministerial Group on Broadband. DCMS have yet to determine the methodology which The Department of Health will be publishing a White will be used to distribute these funds and are still in very Paper on wider social care issues next spring alongside a preliminary discussions with Ofcom. progress report on funding reform. The Government are committed to working constructively with the Welsh Government on any implications for delivery of care Maghaberry Prison: Standards and support in Wales. Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland about conditions NORTHERN IRELAND in Maghaberry Prison; and if he will make a statement. [82006] Bombings: Omagh Mr Paterson: I meet the Northern Ireland Justice Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Minister on a frequent basis to discuss a range of Ireland when he plans to determine whether an inquiry matters relating to security. Matters relating to the into the Omagh bombing is to be held. [82711] management of prisons in Northern Ireland, however, are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Justice Mr Paterson: I met the Omagh Support and Self Minister and the Director General of the Northern Help Group (OSSHG) last September. I also met family Ireland Prison Service. members who are against the establishment of a public inquiry. I have made it clear to all the families that I am open to receiving any representations from them on the Patrick Finucane issue. The OSSHG have recently advised me that they wish to submit further representations on this matter Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for and have asked me to refrain from making any decision Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had on the issue until these have been received. with (a) the Irish Government and (b) the Finucane family since his decision not to hold an inquiry into the Broadband death of Pat Finucane. [82009]

Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paterson: Since my announcement to the House Northern Ireland (1) what discussions he has had with on 12 October 2011, Official Report, columns 335-37, the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media I have had discussions with An Tánaiste and Minister and Sport about 3G mobile broadband coverage in for Foreign Affairs and other representatives of the Northern Ireland; [82178] Irish Government regarding my decision to establish an independent review into the murder of Patrick Finucane. (2) what discussions he has had with mobile network The Government have had no further contact with the operators about 3G mobile broadband coverage in Finucane family since their meeting with the Prime Northern Ireland; [82179] Minister and me on 11 October. I understand from the (3) what discussions he has had with the Secretary of press release made by the Pat Finucane review on State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport about 10 November that they have recently written to the the amount of money that will be allocated to Finucane family seeking a meeting with them at the Northern Ireland from the £150 million of funding to earliest opportunity. I remain hopeful that the family improve mobile coverage. [82182] will co-operate with the review. 499W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 500W

Politics and Government in the 2011 Pre Budget Report to tackle (a) adult and (b) youth unemployment in Northern Ireland; [82650] Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what discussions he has had with the Chancellor Northern Ireland if he will establish all-party talks in of the Exchequer on the 2011 Pre Budget Report with Northern Ireland to discuss how to deal with the past. respect to Northern Ireland; and on what dates such [82007] discussions took place. [82652]

Mr Paterson: The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Mr Paterson: As part of the coalition Government’s Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for East plan to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy I have Devon (Mr Swire) and I have been consulting widely on regular discussions on a range of economic matters how best to learn from the past in Northern Ireland. with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. The Government will play their role in this process but Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), and other remain convinced that progress will only be possible Treasury Ministers. However, specific measures to tackle when consensus is achieved by those within Northern both adult and youth unemployment are primarily devolved Ireland who have an interest. I plan to meet representatives matters which are the responsibility of the relevant of each of the Assembly parties in the coming weeks to Northern Ireland Executive Ministers. seek their views on moving forward. Social Security Benefits Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent steps he has taken in Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of (a) the past and (b) legacy issues in Northern Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the Ireland. [82008] Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the effects of his welfare reform proposals in Northern Ireland. Mr Paterson: The Government continue to play their [82651] part in dealing with issues relating to the past and in resolving outstanding legacy issues. The reports of three Mr Paterson: I discuss these matters regularly with of four public inquiries were published in full in each the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my right case the day after I received the report (the Bloody hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Sunday Inquiry in June 2010, the Billy Wright Inquiry Green (Mr Duncan Smith), and I have met the Minister in September 2010 and the Rosemary Nelson Inquiry in for Welfare Reform, my noble Friend the Lord Freud, May 2011). The Robert Hamill Inquiry report is to be on a number of occasions, both in Northern Ireland published as soon as practicable, once related ongoing and London to discuss the implications of the welfare criminal proceedings have concluded. Sir Desmond de reform agenda for Northern Ireland. My noble Friend Silva’s Review concerning the murder of Patrick Finucane has visited Northern Ireland twice to discuss this agenda is well under way.The Government have, where appropriate, with Northern Ireland Ministers and plans to visit apologised for past actions. The Prime Minister apologised again. to the Bloody Sunday families and, more recently, to the family of Patrick Finucane. The Government also Terrorism published a summary of the responses to the previous Government’s consultation on the recommendations of the Consultative Group on the Past from which it Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for was clear that there is no consensus on the best way Northern Ireland how many offences categorised as forward. terrorist related there have been in Northern Ireland (a) in the most recent period for which figures are It is also important to recognise the wide range of available and (b) in each of the last 10 years. [82010] work, and investigative matters, that are being taken forward in Northern Ireland, including the work of the Police Ombudsman’s Office, the Historical Enquiries Mr Paterson: The number of persons charged with Team and the Victims Commissioners. offences under the Terrorism Act 2000 in the financial year 2010-11 was 19. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr The figures for each of the last nine calendar years is Swire) and I have been carrying out a listening exercise, as follows: meeting a wide range of political parties, community organisations, academics and victims’ groups to hear Number their views on how best to learn from the past. As is 2001 17 clear from the steps already taken, the Government are 2002 38 ready to make their own contribution on this matter but 2003 62 they do not “own” the past and cannot impose solutions; 2004 26 all those with an interest in Northern Ireland have a 2005 28 part to play. 2006 28 2007 16 Public Finance 2008 6 20091 15 Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 In 2009 statistical reporting arrangements changed from calendar Northern Ireland (1) what recent discussions he has had year to financial year, therefore the 2009 figure also includes the first with the Chancellor of the Exchequer about measures three months of 2010. 501W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 502W

These figures relate to the number of charges under Universal Credit: Disability the Terrorism Act, however, charges relating to terrorist activity may also be brought under other legislation. It Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the is not possible to identify those charges which have been Exchequer whether he proposes that current levels of made under other legislation that relate to terrorist financial support to low income and out of work activity. families with disabled children through the disability addition will be retained when universal credit is introduced. [79023] TREASURY Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. Air Passenger Duty Under Universal Credit the cash additions for families with disabled children and the cash additions for adults Mr Donohoe: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be aligned, with the lower rate at £26.75 and the (1) what assessment he has made of the effect of an upper rate at around £77 per week. The Government increase in the levels of air passenger duty on (a) will also extend eligibility for the higher rate to children who are registered blind who currently only qualify for businesses and (b) the economy; [82445] the disabled child element in Child Tax Credit (those (2) if he will assess the proposal by the British Chambers registered or certified as blind). of Commerce that overall tax revenues from air passenger Increases in the higher addition will be phased in duty should be offset against revenues arising from the from 2013 as savings from simplification are realised. entry of aviation into the EU Emissions Trading Scheme During this phasing-in period we will ensure that severely in 2012. [82446] disabled children do not receive less than they would be under the Child Tax Credit equivalent amount. As this Miss Chloe Smith: The Government launched a is more than the current equivalent higher addition for consultation on air passenger duty at Budget. A large adults, the higher adult and child rates may not be in number of responses to the consultation were submitted, alignment until this phasing-in period is complete. including the views of business. The Government will publish their response shortly. Air passenger duty is fundamentally a revenue-raising INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT duty which makes an important contribution to the public finances. In meeting their revenue requirements, Ministers’ Private Offices: Expenditure the Government consider aviation taxes in the round. Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands International Development what the (a) transaction date, (b) supplier and (c) amount was of each transaction Gloria De Piero: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer made on corporate cards held by the private office of how many residents of Ashfield constituency paid 50 the Secretary of State in his Department between pence income tax rate in the latest period for which 6 October 2003 and 28 June 2007. [82151] figures are available. [82479] Mr Duncan: The information requested is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Mr Gauke: An estimated 308,000 taxpayers are liable cost. to income tax at the 50% additional rate in the United Kingdom in 2011-12. In the east midlands, which contains the Ashfield constituency the estimate is 12,000. These and estimates for other UK Government office regions CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT are published on the HMRC website in tables 2.1 and Martial Arts 2.2 which are available at the following addresses; http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-1.pdf Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-2.pdf Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport which martial arts organisations have received grants from his Department Reliable estimates are not available at the parliamentary in each of the last 10 years; and how much each such constituency level, due to greater uncertainties in projections grant was. [82344] for small geographical areas and small sample sizes. These estimates are based on the 2007-08 Survey of Hugh Robertson: Sport England invests national lottery Personal Incomes, projected using economic assumptions and Exchequer funding in community sport. consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s The amount of lottery and Exchequer funding awarded March 2011 economic and fiscal outlook. to martial arts organisations can be found in the following Tax Collection tables. Sport England does not hold details of Exchequer funding prior to 2002-03. Martin Horwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Lottery Exchequer how many letters have been issued in error Financial year Total (£) by HM Revenue and Customs in the last two months 2001-02 1,421,612 for which information is available. [82501] 2002-03 1,495,315 2003-04 4,366,854 Mr Gauke: HMRC does not hold the information 2004-05 587,290 requested and it is available only at disproportionate 2005-06 4,404,279 cost. 503W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 504W

Lottery undertake photography of the ministerial and senior Financial year Total (£) leadership team as part of their duties; and if he will make a statement. [82591] 2006-07 930,000 2007-08 1,742,788 The Prime Minister: Official photographs are published 2008-09 500,000 on the No. 10 website 2009-10 8,820,514 http://www.number10.gov.uk 2010-11 796,750 Total 25,065,402 and on the No. 10 flickr stream http://www.flickr.com/photos/number10gov Exchequer They are indicated with a ’Crown Copyright’ inscription. Financial year Total (£) Northern Ireland Government 2002-03 125,000 2003-04 125,000 2004-05 254,535 Vernon Coaker: To ask the Prime Minister (1) when 2005-06 826,496 he last met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister 2006-07 1,826,725 of Northern Ireland (a) separately and (b) together; [82653] 2007-08 288,433 2008-09 942,615 (2) what plans he has to invite the First Minister and 2009-10 621,551 Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland to No. 10 2010-11 826,037 Downing Street for discussions. [82654] Total 5,836,392 The Prime Minister: I met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland at Stormont Aerials Castle on 9 June 2011. I and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), are in regular Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects communication with them. to provide information on how the £150 million mobile phone mast fund will be allocated. [82183] Supermarkets

Mr Vaizey: The mobile project is currently in the Lisa Nandy: To ask the Prime Minister what meetings definition stage and expects to commence procurement he has had with representatives of (a) Asda, (b) Tesco in 2012. The allocation of funds will be dependent upon and (c) Sainsbury’s since June 2010. [82310] the delivery model and procurement route to be followed. It is expected that an outline allocation will be clear by The Prime Minister: A list of my official meetings the early stages of any procurement approach with final with external organisations is available on the Cabinet allocations confirmed in later stages. It is expected that Office website any contract(s) will be awarded for delivery of services http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/ministerial- to commence in 2013. gifts-hospitality-travel-and-meetings-external-organisations Horse Racing: Betting

Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State CABINET OFFICE for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he plans to issue details of his Department’s consultation on the Community Organisers future of the horse racing levy. [82674] Mr Byrne: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office John Penrose: I am currently in discussions with what funding he proposes to allocate for community representatives of racing and bookmakers on the options organisers in (a) Birmingham, (b) Newcastle, (c) for the future of the levy that are fair, commercial, Wakefield, (d) Manchester, (e) Leeds, (f) Liverpool, sustainable, enforceable and remove Government from (g) Coventry, (h) Bristol, (i) Sheffield, (j) Bradford, the process. We have made a promising start but it is still (k) Leicester and (l) Nottingham in each of the next early days and I am cautious about moving to a public three years. [82592] consultation until these discussions have produced an outline which is acceptable to both sides. Everybody Mr Hurd: The Government have appointed Locality wants to reach a solution swiftly but whether we do will to deliver the Community Organisers programme at depend on how quickly the racing and gambling industries arm’s length from Government. Locality believe that can agree. Community Organisers need to be hosted within a local organisation which can help the Community Organiser make the essential links with the local people, other PRIME MINISTER voluntary organisations, businesses and the local authority. Departmental Photographs These organisations also provide mentoring, advice, peer support and desk space. Over the four year period, Mr Thomas: To ask the Prime Minister how many Locality expects to recruit between 100-200 local official photographs have been taken of (a) him and organisations across England to host Community (b) senior officials for use in Government publications Organisers. Recruitment of host organisations is based since May 2010; how many of his staff are expected to on a set of criteria, including a focus on areas of 505W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 506W significant deprivation and the ability of the organisation There is no record of Cabinet Office Ministers or to host and sustain between two and five Community special advisers meeting with Mr Werritty. One Cabinet Organisers each. Recruitment of Community Organisers Office official met Mr Werritty on two occasions away is undertaken locally by host organisations. from departmental premises as part of the Cabinet There are currently 22 local organisations taking part Secretary’s review into allegations relating to the former in the programme, with more being recruited regularly. Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the The programme aims to reach a good geographical Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox). coverage by the end of the four years. As the process of British Nationals Abroad: EU Countries recruiting locally rooted host organisations is an open application process, it is not possible to pre-determine which areas will benefit over the next three years. However, Martin Horwood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet I can confirm that there are host organisations in the Office what his estimate is of the number of British following areas: Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, nationals who had a vacation in each other EU Bristol, Sheffield, Bradford, and Leicester. member state in each of the last 10 years; and if he will make a statement. [82499] Further details of the programme are available at: www.cocollaborative.org.uk Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Adam Werritty responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Michael Dugher: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2011: Office whether (a) he, (b) officials of his Department As Director General of the Office for National Statistics and (c) special advisers in his Department have met (ONS), I have been asked to respond to your Parliamentary Mr Adam Werritty on official business since May 2010; Question asking what the estimate is of the number of British and how many such meetings took place (i) on his nationals who had a vacation in each other EU member state in each of the last 10 years. [82499] Department’s premises and (ii) elsewhere. [81468] The estimated number of holiday visits to each of the current member states made by UK nationals who are resident in the UK Mr Maude: Ministerial meetings with external are shown in Table 1. These estimates are drawn from the International organisations are published at: Passenger Survey. For each country the estimate is the number of http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/ministerial- relevant visits abroad on which the reported country is the main gifts-hospitality-travel-and-meetings-external-organisations destination.

Table 1: Holiday visits abroad by UK nationals who are resident in the UK. Presented in terms of main country visited on each visit Visits (thousand) 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Austria 382 541 415 579 543 492 482 576 517 440 Belgium 736 746 832 707 784 840 923 831 652 628 Bulgaria 89 121 130 244 316 208 231 265 162 143 Czech Republic 191 249 398 507 585 528 384 309 217 179 Cyprus 1,336 1,155 1,105 1,093 1,227 1,063 1,066 1,063 800 752 Denmark 73 66 68 86 65 73 71 67 61 61 Estonia 7 7162740444622911 Finland 47 45 65 77 56 83 110 88 62 41 France 6,637 7,116 6,992 6,949 6,847 6,666 7,050 7,013 6,497 5,854 Germany 497 538 422 575 679 646 761 739 565 589 Greece 2,954 2,689 2,641 2,398 2,179 2,175 2,214 1,840 1,607 1,447 Hungary 46 41 55 102 164 126 106 113 77 84 Irish Republic 1,130 1,245 1,113 1,177 1,230 1,301 1,053 1,008 765 554 Italy 1,491 1,653 1,850 1,917 2,178 2,240 2,313 2,176 1,611 1,398 Latvia 334726464428920 Lithuania 1 5 4 11 5 16 13 6 6 5 Luxembourg 13 13 13 11 14 9 14 15 9 24 Malta 398 392 413 431 470 425 400 418 303 350 Netherlands 948 1,038 1,000 1,045 1,012 1,100 995 875 769 727 Poland 43 28 45 72 111 215 251 244 197 170 Portugal 1,331 1,527 1,581 1,446 1,507 1,582 1,802 2,109 1,491 1,517 Romania3 61213171215191913 Slovakia5647254124261113 Slovenia 15 24 16 39 47 55 44 54 20 31 Spain 10,557 11,129 12,022 11,916 11,806 12,293 11,688 11,694 9,829 8,919 Sweden 78 75 65 59 55 72 82 112 52 67

Martin Horwood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet part or all of that year; and if he will make a statement. Office how many British nationals worked in each [82500] other EU member state in each of the last 10 years, for 507W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 508W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the member states over the last ten years. The requested information responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have is available in the following table (82500). asked the authority to reply. The data comes from the Labour Force Survey and is transmitted Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2011: on a voluntary basis by the EU Member States to Eurostat (the As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I European Union’s statistical office). As with any sample survey, have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking estimates from the Labour Force Survey are subject to a margin how many British nationals have been employed in other EU of uncertainty.

Employment by citizenship: UK citizens (aged 15 to 64) working in other EU27 member states Persons (thousand) Country 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Belgium 8.5 13.0 14.0 7.2 11.7 10.8 10.5 9.5 9.6 11.3 10.0 Bulgaria —————0.10.3—0.1—— Czech Republic — — 0.5 0.4 1.3 0.7 1.0 0.6 0.9 1.9 1.7 Denmark 6.1 6.5 6.8 9.7 6.3 5.9 6.4 6.1 7.3 9.9 8.1 Germany 72.4 68.7 58.2 74.2 68.8 55.4 64.6 62.1 62.1 56.7 58.4 Estonia—————0.20.1—0.30.1— Ireland 31.7 37.6 38.0 42.0 39.6 — 51.6 41.4 54.8 47.8 37.6 Greece 1.6 2.3 1.4 3.4 2.7 3.1 2.9 2.5 2.8 2.0 2.4 Spain 28.0 39.5 41.9 30.4 37.4 50.7 54.5 55.7 51.0 54.5 62.2 France 29.0 28.2 34.4 18.1 24.3 28.2 27.7 25.9 33.7 37.4 47.5 Italy —————10.8 10.9 6.6 9.3 11.4 n/a Cyprus 5.4 3.8 2.8 3.2 3.5 3.9 4.8 5.0 5.7 5.0 5.4 Latvia ——————0.3———— Lithuania ————0.30.10.10.3——0.1 Luxembourg 2.0 1.5 1.9 1.9 2.1 2.5 2.7 2.6 2.7 3.2 4.5 Hungary — 1.0 — 0.3 0.3 0.6 0.5 0.1 0.5 0.4 0.5 Malta 1.1 1.3 1.2 1.1 0.9 0.9 1.2 1.1 1.3 1.3 1.4 Netherlands 34.5 32.9 30.0 31.6 24.2 22.8 22.7 26.1 26.2 24.3 n/a Austria 1.8 3.1 1.8 5.0 3.8 4.2 3.6 3.9 3.6 3.9 4.9 Poland—————0.30.51.91.20.60.2 Portugal 0.6 1.7 3.0 2.4 2.3 2.3 2.5 1.5 3.3 4.1 1.6 Rumania —————————0.40.6 Slovenia—————————0.00.0 Slovakia—————————0.40.6 Finland 0.7 1.4 1.3 0.4 1.1 0.6 1.3 1.8 1.5 0.9 1.4 Sweden 8.8 9.3 7.3 8.2 9.0 9.3 9.5 8.3 8.3 10.0 10.6

Civil Servants: British Nationality and (b) private sector has been allocated to the mutualisation of MyCSP; [82520] Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (2) how much funding from (a) the public purse and Office how many and what proportion of posts in the (b) the private sector has been allocated to the civil service have full UK citizenship as a requirement mutualisation of MyCSP. [82786] of employment. [80438] Mr Maude: The work to transform the management Mr Maude [holding answer 14 November 2011]: and administration of the Principal Civil Service Pension Eligibility for employment in the civil service is governed Scheme has been under way for some time and has by legislative requirements as to nationality. Although included the creation of MyCSP and now its mutualisation. the civil service endeavours to open up as many posts as possible to the range of nationals eligible for employment, While MyCSP is part of government, its transformation a number will be reserved for UK nationals. Given these is provisioned by Cabinet Office and subject to an posts will deal with the most sensitive information approved business case. A competition is currently under relating to national security and the interests of the UK way to select a private sector partner to contribute to the reserving of such posts is a reasonable action. this mutualisation and transformation through share participation in the MyCSP mutual joint venture. As The criteria by which posts can be designated as this process is under way at the moment it would be reserved is set out in the European Communities (Employment inappropriate to make any further statement at this in the Civil Service) Order 2007 with Departments and time. agencies responsible for considering whether or not a post requires reserving for UK nationals only. Unless a McKinsey and Company post satisfies the criteria, it cannot be reserved. Civil Servants: Pensions Paul Farrelly: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) how many (a) secondees and (b) consultants Mrs Glindon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet from McKinsey and Company are being paid by (i) his Office (1) how much funding from the (a) public purse Department and (ii) McKinsey and Company; [82454] 509W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 510W

(2) how many employees of McKinsey and Company Graham Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet are working in his Department; and what role each such Office how many young people from (a) Lancashire person has in his Department; [82455] and (b) Hyndburn constituency he expects to be (3) if he will publish the names of people employed involved in the National Citizen Service in each of the by McKinsey and Company who (a) are working in next four years. [82927] his Department and (b) have been seconded to his Department since 6 May 2010. [82456] Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office is committed to providing 30,000 NCS places across the country in 2012. Pilots Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has one person employed will take place in 95% of upper tier local authority areas by McKinsey and Company. Mr Tim Kelsey leads on in 2012, and providers were partly chosen on the strength the Transparency agenda and is being paid for by the of their proposals to recruit the broadest range of Cabinet Office at the equivalent rate of a director. young people to participate. The Prime Minister has This is part of the Cabinet Office’s strategy to bring announced that there will be 90,000 places for young in expertise from commercial and third sector organisations people in 2014 with an ambition to make NCS universally and the wider public sector but at civil service rates of available to all 16-year-olds in future. pay, rather than consultancy rates. McKinsey and Company have not seconded any Graham Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet other employees to the Cabinet Office since 6 May 2010. Office whether the budget for the National Citizen Service will be allocated on a regional basis; and what Voluntary Sector funding he expects to allocate to organisations in (a) Lancashire and (b) Hyndburn constituency. [82928] Steve Brine: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Mr Hurd: The budget for the 2012 pilots is held by Dumfries and Galloway of 2 November 2011, Official the Cabinet Office and is allocated to providers after an Report, column 907, on the voluntary sector, when he open competition which takes account of their ability plans to announce further details of the special funding to deliver and their plans to recruit a broad range for advice centres. [82450] of young people. The Cabinet Office has announced 29 providers to deliver the 2012 pilots. Mr Hurd: The £16.8 million Advice Services Fund for England was announced on 21 November 2011. The Geraint Davies: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet fund will provide immediate support for not-for-profit Office how much was spent on (a) print and broadcast providers of free advice services in England. The fund advertising, (b) launch costs and (c) promotional will be administered by the Big Fund, the non-lottery material for the 2011 pilot National Citizen Service in arm of the Big Lottery Fund and will be open for 2010-11. [82334] applications by the end of November.

Voluntary Work: Young People Mr Hurd: In line with the current Government freeze on marketing and advertising, there was no central Government budget allocated to marketing and advertising, Graham Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet launch costs and promotional materials for the 2011 Office how many organisations in (a) Lancashire and pilot of National Citizen Service. (b) Hyndburn constituency are involved in National Citizen Service pilot schemes. [82925] Any costs for print or broadcast advertising, launch costs or promotional material for the 2011 pilot of Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office has announced 29 National Citizen Service in 2010-11 were met by the providers to deliver 2012 pilots. In Lancashire, three 12 provider organisations who delivered the pilot. organisations have been selected as lead providers— Catch22, The Challenge Network and Fylde Coast Geraint Davies: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet YMCA. Office what assessment he has made of the effect of charging for National Citizen Service places on the Graham Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet take-up of places by children from low income Office what arrangements are in place to ensure that backgrounds in 2011. [82335] the distribution funding for organisations providing National Citizen Service programmes (a) takes place on a fair geographical basis and (b) takes account of Mr Hurd: During the 2011 pilot of National Citizen social inclusion. [82926] Service, some pilot providers requested small contributions or deposits from participants. Many providers supported Mr Hurd: Providers were selected after a two-stage participants to fundraise this amount. All National bidding process that was fully open and competitive. In Citizen Service pilots included bursaries or support commissioning places for the 2012 pilots the Cabinet schemes to ensure that young people/families without Office looked closely at where providers were able to the means to contribute were able to participate. deliver places and pilots will take place in 95% of upper The independent evaluation of the first National tier local authority areas in England in 2012. Pilot Citizen Service pilot by NatCen is currently examining providers were partly chosen on the strength of their a range of factors impacting on recruitment, including proposals to recruit the broadest range of young people the effects of charging for National Citizen Service to participate. places. Findings will be made available in due course. 511W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 512W

Geraint Davies: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Through the affordable homes programme we have Office what plans he has to ask local authorities to committed £100 million to bring empty homes back contribute to the cost of National Citizen Service into use as affordable housing. We are making sure that places in their areas. [82336] community and self help groups have an opportunity to access this funding and take on this work alongside Mr Hurd: The National Citizen Service pilots in 2011 conventional housing providers. Detailed bidding guidance and 2012 are aiming to test a variety of cost and is available on the Homes and Communities Agency’s delivery models. Provider organisations have been tasked website: to develop and outline innovative ways of building a www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/ourwork/empty-homes broad coalition of support from across the community We have announced £50 million of additional funding to help with the delivery of National Citizen Service, to tackle some of the worst concentrations of empty including local authorities. homes. Tackling empty homes in these areas will require an intensive approach—refurbishing and reconfiguring homes, as well as improving the public realm and tackling COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT wider issues in the local area. We are consulting on technical reforms to council Council Tax Benefits tax, including on proposals to give councils the flexibility to reduce or remove council tax relief on empty homes, Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for and second homes. These reforms could allow councils Communities and Local Government what modelling to make up to a £20 a year reduction in the bill for a his Department undertook of changes in council tax typical Band D property in England. The consultation benefit for those in employment of (a) the localisation also explores the proposition that councils should have of this benefit and (b) a 10 per cent. reduction in local discretion to introduce a council tax premium on available funding. [82644] homes that have been empty for more than two years. All these measures would provide an additional fiscal Robert Neill: The Department’s modelling of changes incentive for owners to bring empty homes into use in council tax benefit for those in employment of (a) more quickly. the localisation of this benefit and (b) a 10% reduction Under the New Homes Bonus local authorities can in available funding will be included in the impact receive the same financial reward for bringing an empty assessment to be published alongside the legislation home back into use as building a new one—so over providing for the localisation of council tax support in £8,500 for a band D property. In year one of the New England. Homes Bonus just under 16,000 long term empty homes were brought back into use. This equates to a reward to Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for local authorities of around £19 million. Communities and Local Government what recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Department The new Community Right to Reclaim Land will for Work and Pensions on the alignment of localised also assist communities to bring empty properties owned council tax benefit with universal credit; and if he will by public bodies back into use. make a statement. [82646] Empty Property: Retail Trade Robert Neill: Ministers within the Department for Communities and Local Government regularly meet Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for colleagues from the Department for Work and Pensions Communities and Local Government whether local to discuss a range of matters. authorities are empowered to compulsorily purchase individual retail units which have been empty in order Councillors: Leave to bring them back into use; and under what authority. [82475] Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Robert Neill: If a local authority has a scheme for any has made of the amount of paid time off work for the land, it may acquire that land by agreement. If that is conduct of public duties given to employees of local not possible, authorities have a number of powers to authorities who are also councillors in the last year for acquire land compulsorily, provided they can demonstrate which figures are available. [81985] to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Robert Neill: We have made no such estimate. Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), a compelling case in the public interest. It is for the authority concerned to Empty Property choose the appropriate power, but the powers under section 226(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for 1990 are frequently used to acquire land in town centre Communities and Local Government what plans he has schemes. to encourage local authorities to bring empty properties back into use. [82486] Growing Places Fund

Grant Shapps: The Government published “Laying John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for the Foundations—A Housing Strategy for England” on Communities and Local Government whether Ministers 21 November which sets out our plans for dealing with in his Department made public mention of (a) the empty homes. Growing Places Fund, (b) the money which was 513W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 514W subsequently to be allocated to the Growing Places taken into account by scheme actuaries when funds are Fund and (c) the stated intention of the Growing next valued in 2013. Access to scheme membership is Places Fund prior to the official announcement of the automatic for eligible employees. Employers and pension policy on 7 November 2011. [82511] fund administering authorities have a role in explaining the available benefits and their guaranteed status. Grant Shapps: On 18 September, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Inverness, Mayors: Referendums Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander), announced plans to establish a new £500 million Growing Places Fund to support local infrastructure projects Ms Gisela Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for which unlock housing and economic growth. Communities and Local Government who is responsible for monitoring donations for mayoral referendums. I refer the right hon. Member to the statement by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury of 12 October 2011, [82601] Official Report, column 445 and to the answer by the Minister of State for Decentralisation and Cities, my Robert Neill: The Local Authorities (Conduct of right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells Referendums) (England) Regulations 2007, which specify (Greg Clark), of 25 October 2011, Official Report, the rules for conducting local governance referendums, column 124W. including referendums on having a directly elected mayor, The announcement of 7 November 2011 was the set an expense limit for campaign expenditure at local publication of the Fund’s prospectus and the indicative governance referendums. While there are no statutory allocations to individual Local Enterprise Partnerships. arrangements for monitoring compliance with these provisions, exceeding this limit constitutes a criminal Housing: Construction offence. The 2007 Regulations will be replaced by new regulations Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for following the enactment of the Localism Act 2011; it is Communities and Local Government pursuant to the intended that these will replicate the existing provisions answer of 3 March 2011, Official Report, columns on expense limits. 567-8W, on housing: construction, what progress the Where a registered political party or a regulated Planning Inspectorate has made in developing and donee are participants in a mayoral referendum, the publishing a model condition which local planning requirements of the Political Parties, Elections and authorities can use where they need to require that any Referendums Act 2000 in respect of donations to parties residential roads proposed as part of a housing or regulated donees will apply. development are built to adoptable standards. [82647] Planning Permission Robert Neill: Draft model planning conditions have been prepared as a basis for discussion about the approaches which local planning authorities can use where they Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for need to require that residential roads proposed as part Communities and Local Government whether private of a housing development are built to adoptable standards. sector organisations are entitled to present local and Legal and technical consultation is under way but must neighbourhood plans. [79996] be completed before these can be used. Greg Clark: Only local planning authorities can bring Housing: Finance forward local plans. Neighbourhood plans can be brought forward by a parish or town council or a designated Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for neighbourhood forum. Neighbourhood forums must Communities and Local Government what proportion be open to all those living or working in the neighbourhood of the receipts from local authority housing sales he area. expects will go to local authorities to help them build Where a local council designates a neighbourhood as new houses. [82793] a business area, non-domestic rate payers will also be allowed to vote in the referendum at the end of the Andrew Stunell: The Government will consult shortly neighbourhood planning process. Business areas for on how receipts arising from additional homes sold neighbourhood planning will be areas which are wholly under the right to buy will be used to fund new affordable or predominantly business in nature. homes. A local authority will be required to put a neighbourhood plan into force where a majority of both voting residents Local Government: Pensions and business rate payers support the plan in the referendum.

Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Planning Permission: Norfolk Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the effect of (a) 90%, (b) 80%, (c) 70% and (d) 60% employee participation rates on Local George Freeman: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Pension Scheme funds. [82641] Communities and Local Government which representatives of local authorities in Norfolk he has met in the last two Robert Neill: No assessment of this kind has been months to discuss the provisions of the Localism Bill made yet. The level of employee participation and its relating to planning reform; and if he will make a impact on scheme income is one of the factors to be statement. [81271] 515W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 516W

Greg Clark: Details of DCLG Ministers meetings Mr Prisk: The outcomes of the Retail and Hospitality, with external organisations are published on a quarterly Food and Drink Red Tape Challenge themes were basis and are available at: announced in July and September respectively. We are www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/ currently following the appropriate legislative and transparencyingovernment/ministerialdata/ parliamentary processes to implement these changes.

Social Services: Finance Businesses: Ex-servicemen

Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Communities and Local Government what discussions Innovation and Skills how many people have applied to he has had with ministerial colleagues on the likely the Be the Boss scheme for ex-service personnel. [82618] effect of the Local Government Resource Review on social care. [82648] Mr Prisk: 1,786 ex-service personnel have applied to join the scheme since the Royal British Legion launched Robert Neill: The Secretary of State for Communities the Be the Boss Scheme in June 2010. On 17 November and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member I met with a number of participants in the scheme. On for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), has regular that occasion I also announced that the eligibility criteria discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of had been extended, meaning that all ex-service personnel issues. can now take advantage of the support offered by the scheme. Taxpayers’ Alliance Departmental Consultants Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many meetings Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, (a) officials and (b) Ministers in his Department have Innovation and Skills how many (a) full-time and (b) had with the Taxpayers’ Alliance in the last 12 months temporary staff in his Department are working on the for which information is available. [81987] Red Tape Challenge; and what the estimated number of such staff will be in (i) 2012-13, (ii) 2013-14 and (iii) Robert Neill: Details of ministerial and the permanent 2014-15. [80410] secretary’s meetings with external organisations are published on a quarterly basis and are available at: Mr Prisk [holding answer 14 November 2011]: I refer www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/ the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 22 November transparencyingovernment/ministerialdata/ 2011, Official Report, column 324W. Details of other officials’ meetings are not held centrally and it would entail disproportionate cost to assemble Departmental Written Questions the information. Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills (1) how many parliamentary questions BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS for written answer on a named day by his Department were answered (a) on time, (b) five days late, (c) 10 Business: Regulation days late, (d) 20 days late and (e) over 30 days late in each month since May 2010; [79538] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many parliamentary questions for (a) ordinary Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer written answer and (b) written answer on a named day of 15 November 2011, Official Report, column 802W, by his Department have remained unanswered for a on regulation, which sectors other than retail and period of two months since May 2010. [79539] hospitality have been examined by the Red Tape Challenge. [82443] Mr Davey: The Department aims to answer named day questions on the date specified by the Member, and Mr Prisk: As of 22 November 2011 10 further themes ordinary parliamentary questions (PQs) within five sitting have been in the ‘spotlight’ on the Red Tape Challenge days. Where it is not possible to provide a full answer website. These are: Road Transportation, Equalities, within the usual deadline, the Department believes it Enforcement, Health and Safety, Manufacturing, will normally be preferable to provide an answer a few Environment, Employment-related Law, Children’s Services, days late, rather than provide an incomplete answer. Rail and Maritime Transport and Disruptive Business During the period 10 May 2010 to 31 October 2011 a Models. In addition, Pensions and Company and total of 1,469 named day parliamentary questions (PQs) Commercial Law have been open for comment since the were due for answer, of which 969 (66%) received a website went live. Details of all previous and upcoming substantive reply on the date requested by the Member. themes can be found on the website at: Twenty-three of the 1,469 named day answers (2%) did www.redtapechallenge.cabinetoffice.gov.uk not receive a substantive answer within 10 sitting days. In line with the format provided to the Procedure Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Committee in the last session,1 the Department’s PQ Business, Innovation and Skills how many of the regulations data are recorded by (i) questions answered on time (ii) relating to the retail and hospitality sectors examined questions answered within 5 to 10 days and (iii) questions by the Red Tape Challenge have been removed. [82444] answered more than 10 days late. Data related to PQs 517W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 518W answered 20 or 30 days late are not held centrally within Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Technical the Department for Business Innovation and Skills Consultation closed on 27 October 2011. The Department (BIS). will respond in due course. This response will include a The Government have committed to providing the summary of all consultation responses and a list of the Procedure Committee with information relating to written respondents. PQ performance on a sessional basis and will provide the committee with the information, using the same format as before, at the end of the session. Higher Education: Students These figures have been drawn from the Department’s database which, as with any large scale recording system, Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Innovation and Skills (1) what research he has 1 Procedure Committee—First Special Report 7 December 2009 commissioned on the effect on the number of mature [HC 129]. students in higher education of the Government’s decision to remove limits on student numbers for those achieving grades AAB or above at A level; and if he will make a European Union statement; [80887]

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State (2) what research he has commissioned on the effects for Business, Innovation and Skills how many ministerial- on the number of black and ethnic minority students level meetings have been held in his Department as part entering higher education of the Government’s of the Government’s examination of the balance of EU decision to remove the cap on student numbers for those achieving grades AAB or above at A level; and if competences. [81415] he will make a statement. [80889] Mr Davey: I refer the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South to the answer I gave on 21 Mr Willetts: The Higher Education White Paper, November 2011, Official Report, column reference 143W. ″Students at the Heart of the System″ published in June this year, sets out clearly the importance the Government place on widening participation and improving fair Higher Education access to higher education. We have been clear that all those with the ability should have access to higher Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, education irrespective of their background or family Innovation and Skills (1) how much funding has been income. Following the publication of the HE White allocated for each higher education institution in (a) Paper BIS Ministers wrote to the Higher Education the west midlands and (b) Birmingham in each of the Funding Council for England (HEFCE) setting out next five years; [82778] priorities for funding which includes the additional (2) how much funding his Department has allocated costs associated with attracting and retaining students to higher education institutions in (a) Newcastle, (b) from non-traditional backgrounds, and disabled students. Wakefield, (c) Manchester, (d) Leeds, (e) Liverpool, The impact of the proposed changes to student number (f) Bristol, (g) Sheffield, (h) Bradford, (i) Leicester controls that were outlined in the HE White Paper were and (j) Nottingham in each of the next five years. assessed in the HE White Paper Equality Impact [82779] Assessment. This concluded that any changes that we make to help meet some of the significant demand for Mr Willetts: The recurrent funding that the Higher higher education will have no adverse affect on protected Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) pays or disadvantaged groups because any 2012/13 changes to higher education institutions (HEIs) is calculated on will work within existing entrant control systems and an annual basis. The most recent available allocation will not affect the number of student places. It also figures are for 2011-12. Details of the 2011-12 allocations outlined that most students with AAB+ A-level grades are available on the HEFCE website at: already go to university. http://www.hefce.ac.uk/finance/recurrent/2011/notify/ Annex D of HEFCE’s consultation on teaching funding A summary table of allocations by region can also be and student number controls (SNC) for 2012/13 accessed through this link. http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/hefce/2011/11_20/ Subsequent years’ allocations are not confirmed. Future year allocations are subject to funding agreement and provides information on proportions of students known will be confirmed in subsequent grant letters. to have AAB+, known not to have AAB+ or who are not attributed to either population, with breakdowns for subject area, ethnicity and age group. Higher Education: Regulation We have instructed HEFCE to continue to monitor impact on particular groups and in developing the Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals for teaching funding and allocating student Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to publish numbers for 2012-13 HEFCE has assessed the impact (a) a summary of consultation responses received, (b) on the HE sector in terms of regulatory burden, equality a list of respondents and (c) the Government’s response and diversity, sustainable development and privacy in to his Department’s consultation entitled A new, fit-for- its Sector Impact Assessment purpose regulatory framework for the Higher Education http://www.hefce.ac.uk/learning/funding/201213/ sector. [82039] 201213_tfund_SIA.pdf 519W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 520W

Occupational Health: Research Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number of adults (aged 19+) achieving a Government-funded full level 2 and full level 3 qualification in Bexley local Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, education authority from 2005/06 to 2009/10, the latest Innovation and Skills what recent assessment he has years for which final data are available. made of the state of research in the field of occupational health. [81614] Full level 2 and full level 3 achievements by adults (aged 19+) in Bexley local education authority, 2005/06 to 2009/10 Full level 2 Full level 3 Mr Willetts: The Medical Research Council (MRC), Academic achievements achievements one of the main agencies through which the Government support medical and clinical research, has not assessed 2005/06 430 370 the state of research in occupational health recently. A 2006/07 700 440 routine quinquennial review of the MRC Lifecourse 2007/08 1,100 500 Epidemiology Unit, which includes research in occupational 2008/091 1,900 700 health, took place in 2009. 2009/101 1,960 890 1 Figures for 2008/09 onwards are not directly comparable to earlier Office for Fair Access years due to the introduction of demand led funding. More information on demand-led funding is available at: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/datadictionary/businessdefinitions/ Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Demand+Led+Funding.htm Notes: for Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. paragraph 17 in the Executive Summary of the Higher 2. Age is based on age at the start of the academic year. Education White Paper, Students at the heart of the 3. Geographic information is based upon the home postcode of the system, what progress he has made in increasing the learner. 4. These data include Learner Responsive, Apprenticeships, Workplace resources of the Office of Fair Access. [79441] Learning, Adult Safeguarded Learning and University for Industry funding streams. Learner Responsive provision includes General Further Mr Willetts: In the financial year 2010/11 the Office Education Colleges including Tertiary, Sixth Form Colleges, Special for Fair Access (OFFA) baseline budget was £484,000. Colleges (Agricultural and Horticultural Colleges and Art and Design Colleges), Specialist Colleges and External Institutions. We have agreed in the course of this year (2011/12) to 5. These data include all Government-funded FE participation and increase this to £630,000 and are continuing to work achievement excluding schools and higher education. with the director to keep this under review to ensure he Source: has access to the resources he needs to fulfil his role in Individualised Learner Record line with the Government’s expectations set out in the Information on Further Education and Skills letter to him on 10 February 2011. participation and achievement is published in a quarterly The Government have committed to strengthen OFFA, Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was as outlined in the Higher Education White Paper “Students published on 23 June 2011: at the Heart of the System”, so it can provide a more http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ active and energetic challenge and support to universities statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current and colleges. We will work with the next Director on the Regional Growth Fund size and structure of OFFA but will make significantly more resources available, increasing capacity up to around four times its original level. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 15 November 2011, Official Report, column 802W, Public Houses on the Regional Growth Fund, whether his Department takes into account the amount spent by companies on Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for due diligence when assessing bids to the Regional Growth Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to respond Fund. [82496] to the Tenth Report from the Business, Innovation and Skills Select Committee on Pub Companies, HC 1369; Mr Prisk: The Regional Growth Fund does not and if he will make a statement. [82507] require companies to undertake due diligence ahead of submitting a bid. Mr Davey: The Government response to Business, Innovation and Skills Select Committee report on Pub Renewable Energy: Training Companies was published this morning. The response may be found on the BIS website and contains a full Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for statement of the Government’s position: Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how much of the budget allocated to the Renewables Training Network http://www.bis.gov.uk/publications he estimates will be spent in Scotland; [82465] Qualifications: Bexley (2) what discussions he has had with (a) the Scottish Executive, (b) Scottish universities, (c) Scottish colleges and (d) businesses in Scotland on the formation of the Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Renewables Training Network. [82466] Business, Innovation and Skills how many adults in the London borough of Bexley completed a (a) level 2 and Mr Hayes: The Renewables Group Training Network (b) level 3 qualification in the last five years for which receives public funding from the Growth and Innovation figures are available. [76563] Fund, alongside matching employer investment. 521W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 522W

Department for Business, Innovation and Skills funding funded by the Skills Funding Agency and its predecessor for skills covers England only and the scope of Growth bodies in each of the last five years; which institutions and Innovation Fund projects reflects that. taught these courses; and what the cost was in each year; [82128] Students: Loans (9) how many certificates were awarded to participants in Trade Union Learning Representatives courses funded Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Skills Funding Agency and its predecessor bodies Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has in each of the last five years; which institutions taught made of the number of graduates who will not repay these courses; and what the cost was in each year; their student loans in full over a 30 year period. [80735] [82129] (10) how many certificates were awarded to participants Mr Willetts: We currently estimate that around 40% in Trade Unions Today courses funded by the Skills of borrowers will not fully repay their loan either because Funding Agency and its predecessor bodies in each of it will be written off due to death, not being able to the last five years; which institutions taught these courses; work again due to permanent disability or after 30 years and what the cost was in each year; [82130] has expired. (11) what courses for trade union representatives We currently estimate that the resource accounting were funded by the Skills Funding Agency and its and budgeting charge for student loans—representing predecessor bodies in each of the last five years; [82139] the cost of both write-offs and interest subsidies—will be around 30% of the face value of loans issued. (12) how many diplomas were awarded to participants in TUC Organising Academy courses funded by the Trade Unions: Training Skills Funding Agency and its predecessor bodies in each of the last five years; which institutions taught these courses; and what the cost was in each year; Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many diplomas were [82140] awarded to participants in Equalities for Trade Union (13) how many diplomas were awarded to participants Representatives courses funded by the Skills Funding in Trade Union Tutor Training courses funded by the Agency and its predecessor bodies in each of the last Skills Funding Agency and its predecessor bodies in five years; which institutions taught these courses; and each of the last five years; which institutions taught what the cost was in each year; [82121] these courses; and what the cost was in each year; (2) how many awards were made to participants in [82141] Trade Union Health and Safety Representation courses (14) how many diplomas were awarded to participants funded by the Skills Funding Agency and its in Organising and Recruitment for Trade Unions courses predecessor bodies in each of the last five years; which funded by the Skills Funding Agency and its predecessor institutions taught these courses; and what the cost was bodies in each of the last five years; which institutions in each year; [82122] taught these courses; and what the cost was in each (3) how many awards were made to participants in year; [82142] Trade Union Representative courses funded by the Skills (15) how many diplomas were awarded to participants Funding Agency and its predecessor bodies in each of in Organising and Recruitment for Trade Union Health the last five years; which institutions taught these courses; and Safety Representatives - Occupational Health and and what the cost was in each year; [82123] Safety courses funded by the Skills Funding Agency (4) how many awards were made to participants in and its predecessor bodies in each of the last five years; Trade Unions Today courses funded by the Skills Funding which institutions taught these courses; and what the Agency and its predecessor bodies in each of the last cost was in each year; [82143] five years; which institutions taught these courses; and (16) how many diplomas were awarded to participants what the cost was in each year; [82124] in Trade Union Representatives - Contemporary Trade (5) how many certificates were awarded to participants Unionism courses funded by the Skills Funding Agency in Trade Union Health and Safety Representatives courses and its predecessor bodies in each of the last five years; funded by the Skills Funding Agency and its predecessor which institutions taught these courses; and what the bodies in each of the last five years; which institutions cost was in each year; [82144] taught these courses; and what the cost was in each (17) how many diplomas were awarded to participants year; [82125] in Trade Union Health Representatives - Employment (6) how many certificates were awarded to participants Law courses funded by the Skills Funding Agency and in Trade Union Health and Safety Representatives (Next its predecessor bodies in each of the last five years; Steps) courses funded by the Skills Funding Agency which institutions taught these courses; and what the and its predecessor bodies in each of the last five years; cost was in each year; [82145] which institutions taught these courses; and what the cost was in each year; [82126] Mr Hayes: Since April 2010, the Skills Funding Agency (7) how many certificates were awarded to participants (SFA) has been responsible for funding post-19 Further in Trade Union Representatives (stage 1) courses funded Education (FE) and Skills provision delivered through by the Skills Funding Agency and its predecessor bodies FE colleges and training organisations (the Learning in each of the last five years; which institutions taught and Skills Council (LSC) had this responsibility from these courses; and what the cost was in each year; [82127] 2001). (8) how many certificates were awarded to participants Each academic year, FE colleges and training in Trade Union Representatives (Stepping Up) courses organisations receive a post-19 funding allocation at the 523W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 524W programme level (for example budgets for Adult Skills, Tim Loughton: The Department for Education publishes Adult Safeguarded Learning and/or Offender Learning all ministerial and permanent secretaries’ meetings with and Skills). As funding is not allocated at the learning external organisations on a quarterly basis. The information aim level the amount of money spent on TUC learning can be viewed at the following links: aims is not recorded centrally by the Skills Funding http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ Agency (or the LSC previously). departmentalinformation/transparency/a0065263/ministers- I have made data available in the Libraries of the quarterly-returns House showing the number of Government-funded FE http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ enrolments for Trade Union representative Qualifications departmentalinformation/transparency/a0075403/the- and Credit Framework (QCF) courses by level, provider permanent-secretarys-meetings-with-external-organisations name and funding rate. The QCF system was introduced The Information for April to June 2011 will be published in 2009/10, therefore only data for 2009/10 have been in due course. The information for July to September included, this is the latest year for which final enrolment 2011 is being collated. data are available. The additional information requested for each of the Information on FE and skills participation, enrolments five years could be provided only at disproportionate and achievements is published in a quarterly Statistical cost. First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on Children: Disability 27 October 2011: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what financial and other support is in place Information on FE and skills enrolments by aim title to ensure that individuals aged 16 in receipt of disability for academic years 2005/06 to 2009/10 is available in the living allowance are equipped to make informed and National Aims Report: responsible financial decisions. [79882] http://mireportslibrary.thedataservice.org.uk/learners/ Mr Gibb: Under the terms of the new 16-19 bursary fund which was introduced in September 2011, the most vulnerable young people are eligible for a bursary of EDUCATION £1,200 a year—more than they could have received under education maintenance allowance (EMA). This Academies includes disabled young people in receipt of both employment support allowance and disability living Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for allowance. Education how many schools have (a) become academies When we announced the ending of EMA, we set out and (b) applied to become academies in each (i) region plans for transitional support for the majority of young and (ii) parliamentary constituency since May 2010. people who had received EMA in 2010/11 and were [79222] continuing in post-16 education or training in 2011/12. Some young people in receipt of disability living allowance Mr Gibb: As of 1 November 2011, 1,100 schools in may be receiving weekly payments under these England had successfully converted to academy status, arrangements. It is of course important that young while 1,600 schools (including the open converted people know how to use their money wisely and make academies) had applied to convert to academy status. responsible financial decisions. Personal finance is covered The precise number of open converted academies and within the economic wellbeing and financial capability applications to convert in each region and in each strand of personal, social, health and economic (PSHE) constituency has been placed in the House Libraries. education for young people under 16. This is a non-statutory programme of study which gives teachers the flexibility Academies: Finance to tailor the curriculum to meet the needs of their pupils. Young people aged 16 and over have access to Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the independent Money Advice Service which was set for what reasons he awarded funding from the public up by the Government to give free, unbiased money purse to an academy in Lincolnshire for the purposes of advice to help people make informed choices. Their purchasing a property in France; and if he will make a advice and information is available online, over the statement. [77223] phone and face-to-face. Mr Gibb: Academies have considerable flexibility in Departmental NDPBs deciding how they use their resources and the property was purchased for educational purposes using that flexibility. Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Approval was given in September 2009. Education how many officials were (a) directly and (b) otherwise employed by non-departmental public Bell Pottinger Group bodies for which his Department is responsible (i) in 2000, (ii) in 2005, (iii) in 2007, (iv) in 2010 and (v) on John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the most recent date for which figures are available. whether (a) Ministers, (b) officials and (c) political [78122] advisers in his Department have met representatives of (i) Bell Pottinger Group or (ii) each of its subsidiaries in Tim Loughton: The Department was created on 11 May the last five years; on what dates any such meetings 2010 and employed 2,622 civil servants at that time. The took place; and what was discussed. [80060] Department currently employs 2,594 civil servants. 525W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 526W

Information on the public servants currently employed Free Schools in Department’s non-departmental public bodies1 can be found at: Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ how many free schools do not use the national curriculum; departmentalinformation/transparency/a00199711/monthly- and how many do not use nationally negotiated pay workforce-management-information-2011 agreements to determine teacher pay. [78634] Historical data for these bodies is a matter for them and is not held centrally. Mr Gibb [holding answer 7 November 2011]: The Contact information for them can be found at the Department does not hold this information. As with following link: academies, all mainstream free schools have freedoms http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ over the curriculum they deliver, provided it is broad departmentalinformation/transparency/b0065313/disclosure- and balanced. Similarly, free schools are able to set their of-scs-posts-and-salary-information own pay and conditions for their staff. 1 Not arm’s length bodies as this term includes non-ministerial departments and a public corporation. Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Private Finance Initiative Education which free schools have (a) opened and (b) been approved to open in each (i) region, (ii) local authority and (iii) parliamentary constituency. [79220] Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (a) (b) (1) if he will publish the cost, date of Mr Gibb: The first 24 mainstream Free Schools opened (c) commencement and duration of each private finance in September 2011. The names and locations of these initiative contract managed by his Department; [76536] schools are shown by region in the following table. At (2) what the (a) cost, (b) date of commencement this stage no other schools have been approved to open and (c) duration is of each private finance initiative in 2012 or beyond. contract managed by his Department. [82208] Region School name Local authority Constituency Mr Gibb [holding answers 27 October and 23 November East Krishna-Avanti Leicester City Leicester 2011]: Information on the private initiative contracts Midlands Primary School East managed by the Department is available on the Treasury’s website and can be accessed by using the following link: East of Moorlands Free School Luton Luton North http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ppp_pfi_stats.htm England East of Free School Norwich Norfolk Norwich Departmental Responsibilities England South East of Stour Valley Suffolk South Suffolk Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education England Community School at how many events organised by (a) charities, (b) civil society groups, (c) businesses and (d) lobbying London Etz Chaim Jewish Barnet Hendon organisations (i) Ministers and (ii) senior officials in his Primary School London St Luke’s Church of Camden Hampstead Department have spoken in each month since May England Primary and Kilburn 2010; and if he will make a statement. [76787] School London Woodpecker Hall Enfield Edmonton Tim Loughton [holding answer 25 October 2011]: Primary Academy Since May 2010, the Secretary of State for Education, London ARK Conway Hammersmith Hammersmith my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath Academy and Fulham London West London Free Hammersmith Hammersmith (Michael Gove), and the rest of his ministerial team School and Fulham have attended many events organised by a wide range of London Eden Primary School Haringey Hornsey & organisations. Wood Green The level of detailed information requested can be London Aldborough E-ACT Redbridge Ilford South obtained only at disproportionate cost. Free School London Canary Wharf College Tower Hamlets Poplar and A range of speeches by the Department for Education Limehouse ministerial team can be found at the following link: London ARK Atwood Westminster Westminster http://education.gov.uk/inthenews/speeches Academy North

Family Intervention Programme North West Sandbach School Cheshire East Congleton North West Maharishi School Lancashire West Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Lancashire pursuant to the answer of 10 October 2011, Official Report, columns 201-02W, on the family intervention South East All Saints Junior Reading Reading West programme, when his Department expects to set the School South East Langley Hall Primary Slough Slough budget for family intervention projects in each of the Academy next four years. [76946] South East Discovery New School West Sussex Crawley Tim Loughton: We plan to make a decision on future South West Bristol Free School Bristol Bristol North funding for family intervention projects shortly. Funding West up to March 2012 is included as part of the DfE £2.2 billion Early Intervention Grant. 527W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 528W

Mr Gibb [holding answer 14 November 2011]: Officials Region School name Local authority Constituency assessed both the performance and value for money of West Nishkam Free School Birmingham Birmingham the New Schools Network’s (NSN) work throughout Midlands Perry Barr the original grant period. NSN was found to have West Priors Free School Warwickshire Kenilworth played a major role in assisting groups to submit quality Midlands and Southam applications to the Department; for example of the 24 Free Schools that opened this year, 22 had received Yorkshire Bradford Science Bradford Bradford and Humber Academy South advice and guidance from NSN. In the 2012 mainstream Yorkshire Rainbow Free School Bradford Bradford application process NSN supported over 80% of those and Humber West approved by the Secretary of State for Education, my Yorkshire Batley Grammar Kirklees Batley and right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael and Humber School Spen Gove), to move to the pre-opening phase of development. These figures, supplemented by feedback from groups who contacted NSN for help, clearly demonstrate the Free Schools: Finance value of the support to groups in developing their Free School applications. That is why we assessed that there Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for was an ongoing need for an organisation to provide Education pursuant to the answer of 8 November 2011, similar pre-application support and ran an open competition Official Report, column 287W, on free schools, what the to offer a grant for these services from 1 November threshold percentage is set out in the funding agreement 2011 to 31 March 2013 (with a possible one-year extension). of each free school relating to any shortfall or increase We have no plans to publish any specific information in pupil numbers. [81123] relating to these assessments.

Mr Gibb [holding answer 15 November 2011]: Funding Offences against Children agreements for each of the free schools that opened in September 2011 will be published in due course. Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of recent Local Safeguarding Children Boards trends in localised grooming and child sexual exploitation. [81891] Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what information his Department requires Tim Loughton: The Child Exploitation and Online from local safeguarding children boards in respect of Protection (CEOP) Centre carried out a thematic assessment child exploitation. [81890] of child sexual exploitation, with particular reference to ‘localised grooming’, earlier this year. The CEOP report Tim Loughton: The Department for Education does ‘Out of Mind, Out of Sight: Breaking down the barriers not require Local Safeguarding Children Boards (LSCBs) to understanding child sexual exploitation’, published to submit any information about child exploitation. in June 2011, provided an outline of trends, themes and patterns. These were, however, based on a limited number However, this is an extremely important issue which of responses to a request to local agencies for data and the Government take very seriously. LSCBs have a key the CEOP report acknowledged that findings from the role in ensuring that local multi-agency arrangements thematic assessment were not fully representative. are in place to help and protect children and young people from all forms of child abuse, including child The Government have published a national action sexual exploitation. The national child sexual exploitation plan to tackle child sexual exploitation. This will emphasise action plan, which the Government will publish shortly, the importance of undertaking further research to improve will contain a clear message that every LSCB needs to understanding of child sexual exploitation and inform treat child sexual exploitation as a priority and to effective responses to it. It will look forward to findings assure itself that local service provision are informed by becoming available from the recently launched inquiry a robust assessment of the local situation. by the Office of the Children’s Commissioner into child sexual exploitation in gangs and groups.

New Schools Network: Finance Private Finance Initiative: Correspondence

Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for (1) for how long he intends to continue funding work Education if he will place in the Library a copy of each being undertaken by the New Schools Network; [80274] item of correspondence between his Department and (2) what assessment was made of the value for local authorities relating to the private finance initiative money of work being undertaken by the New Schools since May 2010. [73429] Network, funded by his Department, prior to its grant funding being renewed in October 2011; and if he will Mr Gibb: The correspondence between the Department publish this assessment; [80275] and local authorities is vast and varies depending on an (3) what assessment was made of the need to individual local authority.We intend to keep correspondence continue to fund work undertaken by the New Schools on the private finance initiative in the Libraries only if it Network prior to its grant funding being renewed in relates to parliamentary question on a particular issue, October 2011; and if he will publish this assessment. parliamentary debates or a parliamentary commitment [80276] that has been made in the House. 529W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 530W

The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Expenditure per child in primary schools in each local education Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), authority for 2009-10 made an oral statement on 19 July 2011, Official Report, Schools net Number of Schools net column 792, to announce the new private finance current pupils (at current expenditure January expenditure programme, the Priority School Building Programme. LEA name (£) 2010) per pupil (£)

Pupils: Disadvantaged Cheshire East 94,933,406 26,858 3,534.64 Cheshire West 92,980,311 24,982 3,721.89 Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Chester how many payments of the pupil premium his Department City of London 1,569,788 233 6,737.29 made in the 2011-12 school year. [81524] Cornwall 136,310,776 37,462 3,638.64 Coventry 101,951,283 27,599 3,694.02 Mr Gibb: The Pupil Premium is paid on a financial Croydon 114,697,987 29,345 3,908.60 year basis. Two Pupil Premium payments have been Cumbria 143,607,324 37,484 3,831.16 made by the Department in financial year 2011-2012, in Darlington 30,109,902 8,801 3,421.19 June 2011 and September 2011. A further two will be Derby 80,202,059 21,551 3,721.50 made in December 2011 and March 2012 for the 2011-12 Derbyshire 204,362,732 58,830 3,473.78 financial year. Devon 185,583,809 51,855 3,578.90 Doncaster 93,171,703 25,896 3,597.92 Pupils: Per Capita Costs Dorset 85,752,768 23,753 3,610.19 Dudley 98,723,282 26,792 3,684.80 Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Durham 157,915,967 39,538 3,994.03 Education what the average level of expenditure per Ealing 113,449,100 27,771 4,085.16 child in primary schools has been in each local education East Riding of 87,334,545 24,476 3,568.17 authority since May 2010. [81346] Yorkshire East Sussex 124,705,555 34,898 3,573.43 Mr Gibb: The available information on the average Enfield 123,339,380 28,679 4,300.69 level of expenditure per child in primary schools in each Essex 385,120,038 104,289 3,692.82 local education authority for 2009-10 is shown in the Gateshead 56,136,992 15,170 3,700.53 following table. The information for 2010-11 is currently Gloucestershire 152,347,209 41,593 3,662.81 being collected and will be available in January 2012 Greenwich 97,664,725 21,752 4,489.92 when it will be published as Official Statistics. Hackney 99,455,748 18,074 5,502.70 Expenditure per child in primary schools in each local education Halton 40,185,661 9,971 4,030.25 authority for 2009-10 Hammersmith 49,650,712 9,940 4,995.04 Schools net Number of Schools net and Fulham current pupils (at current Hampshire 350,088,346 94,440 3,706.99 expenditure January expenditure LEA name (£) 2010) per pupil (£) Haringey 101,353,676 21,952 4,617.06 Harrow 80,511,482 19,793 4,067.67 Barking and 76,107,603 20,144 3,778.18 Hartlepool 33,809,976 8,665 3,901.90 Dagenham Havering 71,441,203 19,228 3,715.48 Barnet 115,892,685 27,169 4,265.62 Herefordshire 46,416,670 12,382 3,748.72 Barnsley 71,604,124 19,228 3,723.95 Hertfordshire 319,574,673 92,917 3,439.36 Bath and North 42,525,877 11,839 3,592.02 East Somerset Hillingdon 98,917,484 25,339 3,903.76 Bedford 34,109,922 9,288 3,672.47 Hounslow 79,586,985 19,646 4,051.05 Borough Isle of Wight 25,860,813 6,293 4,109.46 Bexley 73,893,283 20,259 3,647.43 Isles of Scilly 2,314,102 275 8,414.92 Birmingham 423,899,402 102,093 4,152.09 Islington 76,654,768 13,813 5,549.47 Blackburn with 55,296,671 14,316 3,862.58 Kensington and 37,717,271 7,046 5,353.00 Darwen Chelsea Blackpool 41,458,398 11,338 3,656.59 Kent 395,772,125 108,669 3,642.00 Bolton 86,312,728 25,138 3,433.56 Kingston upon 76,159,242 21,012 3,624.56 Bournemouth 35,829,409 10,246 3,496.92 Hull, City of Bracknell Forest 29,375,878 8,903 3,299.55 Kingston upon 46,566,402 12,153 3,831.68 Thames Bradford 205,535,828 53,648 3,831.19 Kirklees 141,024,061 35,923 3,925.73 Brent 110,059,737 24,247 4,539.11 Knowsley 53,088,820 14,223 3,732.60 Brighton and 58,882,527 17,340 3,395.76 Hove Lambeth 120,571,779 20,848 5,783.37 Bristol, City of 108,746,780 29,430 3,695.10 Lancashire 340,372,347 89,941 3,784.40 Bromley 84,839,273 23,706 3,578.81 Leeds 227,060,731 61,545 3,689.34 Buckinghamshire 141,407,586 39,859 3,547.70 Leicester 102,106,757 28,099 3,633.82 Bury 56,927,312 16,154 3,524.04 Leicestershire 170,178,659 46,950 3,624.68 Calderdale 69,677,837 18,734 3,719.33 Lewisham 108,596,577 22,040 4,927.25 Cambridgeshire 158,138,819 43,932 3,599.63 Lincolnshire 177,571,361 50,610 3,508.62 Camden 61,524,584 11,489 5,355.09 Liverpool 145,650,531 35,665 4,083.85 Central 56,697,569 15,789 3,590.95 Luton 78,565,026 19,161 4,100.26 Bedfordshire Manchester 170,982,396 41,604 4,109.76 531W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 532W

Expenditure per child in primary schools in each local education Expenditure per child in primary schools in each local education authority for 2009-10 authority for 2009-10 Schools net Number of Schools net Schools net Number of Schools net current pupils (at current current pupils (at current expenditure January expenditure expenditure January expenditure LEA name (£) 2010) per pupil (£) LEA name (£) 2010) per pupil (£)

Medway 85,048,464 22,196 3.831.70 Tameside 67,521,761 19,747 3,419.34 Merton 60,000,743 16,133 3,719.13 Telford and 48,123,282 14,048 3,425.63 Middlesbrough 50,943,833 13,661 3,729.14 Wrekin Milton Keynes 81,189,426 21,884 3,709.99 Thurrock 50,503,976 14,032 3,599.20 Newcastle upon 73,425,050 19,237 3,816.87 Torbay 32,214,013 9,532 3,379.56 Tyne Tower Hamlets 133,380,388 23,212 5,746.18 Newham 148,840,145 31,984 4,653.58 Trafford 64,446,260 19,667 3,276.87 Norfolk 220,346,213 58,632 3,758.12 Wakefield 97,835,514 27,911 3,505.27 North East 49,435,559 13,390 3,695.71 Walsall 98,266,274 25,716 3,821.21 Lincolnshire Waltham Forest 93,293,760 22,196 4,203.18 North 47,834,783 13,598 3,517.78 Wandsworth 85,869,421 17,815 4,820.06 Lincolnshire Warrington 60,146,978 17,267 3,483.35 North Somerset 54,926,731 15,245 3,602.93 Warwickshire 139,445,746 39,929 3,492.34 North Tyneside 53,249,543 15,785 3,373.43 West Berkshire 45,435,507 12,344 3,680.78 North Yorkshire 158,685,223 42,761 3,710.98 West Sussex 202,350,265 56,398 3,587.90 Northamptonshire 194,286,673 55,686 3,488.97 Westminster 56,119,977 11,272 4,978.71 Northumberland 68,595,889 17,912 3,829.61 Wigan 93,049,493 25,382 3,665.96 Nottingham 94,474,078 23,177 4,076.20 Wiltshire 122,754,533 34,151 3,594.46 Nottinghamshire 229,230,972 62,442 3,671.10 Windsor and 31,198,249 8,748 3,566.33 Oldham 85,952,239 23,499 3,657.70 Maidenhead Oxfordshire 166,070,954 47,668 3,483.91 Wirral 91,829,874 25,190 3,645.49 Peterborough 59,555,606 15,795 3,770.54 Wokingham 42,061,697 12,457 3,376.55 Plymouth 67,251,760 18,579 3,619.77 Wolverhampton 84,505,311 21,959 3,848.32 Poole 34,532,838 10,135 3,407.29 Worcestershire 135,043,167 38,303 3,525.66 Portsmouth 54,210,067 13,929 3,891.89 York 44,868,421 12,936 3,468.49 Reading 39,398,180 10,930 3,604.59 Notes: Redbridge 95,347,930 26,200 3,639.23 1. The data are taken from the local authorities section 251 Outturn Redcar and 46,076,334 12,434 3,705.67 statement for 2009-10, Table A line 56 Schools Net Current Cleveland Expenditure and School Census. 2. Cash terms figures as reported by local authorities as at 13 Richmond upon 50,609,371 13,882 3,645.68 December 2010. Thames 3. Net current expenditure is rounded to the nearest £. Rochdale 73,934,972 19,307 3,829.44 Rotherham 84,054,950 22,671 3,707.60 Schools: Buildings Rutland 9,453,221 2,542 3,718.81 Salford 70,570,625 19,080 3,698.67 Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Sandwell 116,207,662 30,280 3,837.77 Education (1) what criteria he used to determine the Sefton 83,850,185 21,706 3,863.00 priorities for the Property Data Survey Programme; Sheffield 152,028,530 41,770 3,639.66 [81432] Shropshire 69,256,167 20,839 3,323.39 (2) whether the Property Data Survey Programme Slough 47,879,873 12,860 3,723.16 will include any assessment of the condition of asbestos; Solihull 62,881,038 19,183 3,277.96 and if he will make a statement; [81433] Somerset 131,346,551 35,387 3,711.72 (3) what recent assessment he has made of the condition South 69,704,101 20,847 3,343.60 of asbestos in school buildings; and what estimate he Gloucestershire has made of the costs of (a) managing asbestos in situ South Tyneside 45,180,742 11,811 3,825.31 and (b) demolishing and rebuilding schools containing Southampton 61,335,855 16,152 3,797.42 asbestos; [81434] Southend-on- 51,613,366 13,438 3,840.85 (4) what assessment he has made of the findings of Sea the report by Nottinghamshire county council on the Southwark 121,396,666 22,380 5,424.34 cost of rebuilding or refurbishing school buildings St Helens 53,418,429 14,620 3,653.79 containing asbestos. [81435] Staffordshire 213,900,775 60,940 3,510.02 Stockport 78,969,937 22,563 3,499.98 Mr Gibb [holding answer 22 November 2011]: The Stockton-on- 57,625,863 17,414 3,309.17 Property Data Survey (PDS) Programme will take into Tees account both the condition and the priority of the work Stoke-on-Trent 74,294,731 21,008 3,536.50 to elements of buildings, external areas and playing Suffolk 158,017,778 44,635 3,540.22 fields. Sunderland 85,187,462 22,440 3,796.23 Condition will be graded on a scale of A to D, where Surrey 287,404,817 79,501 3,615.11 A is classified as good and D as bad. In addition to the Sutton 54,885,163 14,886 3,687.03 condition grade the priority of work will be captured on Swindon 57,645,072 16,355 3,524.61 a scale of 1 to 4, where 1 is urgent work and 4 is work 533W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 534W which will be required in the longer term. To minimise Regulatory guidance includes requirements for compliance burdens we are applying the same condition and priority with the building regulations and illustrates how compliance grading system that has been used by local authorities can be achieved. for asset management planning purposes since 1999. The costs and benefits of installing sprinkler systems The data collected will be used to provide evidence of varies with the type of school, its location and the the current condition of schools, and enable future incidence of crime. The Department has published a maintenance funding allocations to be focused on the cost benefit analysis tool for sprinklers and other fire buildings with the greatest need. and security measures which is available on the Property data surveys will not include an assessment Department’s website. It is intended for use by local of asbestos, the responsibility for which currently lies authorities and schools to calculate the cost benefit for and will remain with local authorities and schools under a particular school. A cost analysis of sprinklers in the Control of Asbestos Regulations. However while schools that was carried out on behalf of the Department carrying out the PDS the surveyor will seek confirmation in 2007 is also available on the website: that the school has carried out their statutory obligations http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/ and if not will direct them to the Department’s website schoolscapital/buildingsanddesign/environmental/a0063718/ and relevant guidance. fire-safety-design-guidance-building-bulletin-100 The responsibility for assessing the condition of asbestos in school buildings lies with the local duty holder for the Schools: Solar Power particular school. We have not made an estimate of the cost of managing asbestos in situ or demolishing and Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for rebuilding schools containing asbestos. Education if he will estimate the potential cost to Partnerships for Schools received a report from schools, colleges and other educational buildings for Nottinghamshire county council, ″Issues of Using CLASP which photovoltaic solar panels were planned arising to transform learning—Nottinghamshire County Council″. from the proposed reductions in feed-in tariffs. [81084] This addresses the best value for money approach to refurbishing or rebuilding CLASP schools and includes Mr Gibb: The Department does not hold information some consideration of how to deal with asbestos in on take-up and use of photovoltaic solar panels in these buildings. The report showed the high cost of education establishments. Therefore, I am not able to refurbishment of CLASP buildings and that in many estimate the impact of changes to feed-in tariffs. cases it is more cost-effective to rebuild than to refurbish and remodel such buildings. We are not aware of another Schools: Warrington report from Nottinghamshire county council specifically addressing the cost of rebuilding or refurbishing school buildings containing asbestos. Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much (a) capital and (b) revenue funding was allocated to schools in Warrington in each of the last Schools: Fires five years, including the pupil premium for 2011-12. [76379] Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb [holding answer 24 October 2011]: The Education (1) whether his Department plans to review available information on how much funding (a) capital Building Bulletin 100: Design for fire safety in schools; and (b) revenue funding was allocated to schools in and if he will make a statement; [79038] Warrington in each of the last five years, including the (2) whether his planned review of school building pupil premium for 2011-12 is shown as follows: regulations will consider fire safety; [79039] (a) Capital figures for Warrington (for Partnership for Schools (3) whether his Department has assessed the costs managed programmes) and benefits of installing sprinklers in new schools. £ million [79040] 2006-07 12.7 2007-08 11.7 Mr Gibb [holding answer 1 November 2011]: On 3 2008-09 14 November the Department issued a public consultation 2009-10 37.6 document ″Standards for School Premises″. This document 2010-11 19.3 includes our proposals to revise the school premises regulations and to reduce significantly the amount of 2011-12 (provisional) 5.6 guidance on school premises. (b) Revenue funding allocated to schools in Warrington excluding Fire safety, including the fire resistance of building pupil premium elements and provision of adequate means of escape in £ case of fire, is covered in Part B of the Building Regulations, 2007-08 117,186,325 but more generally by the RRF03 (as cited in Part 3 of 2008-09 120,393,189 the ISSs). We think that it is unnecessary to duplicate 2009-10 123,572,276 the requirements of the RRFO in school premises 2010-11 127,340,094 regulations. 2011-12 133,062,958 We propose to withdraw all documents that are of limited value and streamline the rest. It is our intention (c) Warrington has been allocated a total of £1.72 to consolidate our regulatory guidance including BB100. million for the pupil premium in 2011-12. 535W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 536W

Training: Citizenship ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE

Carbon Capture and Storage project Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Education for what reason he has decided that there should be no training bursary available for PGCE citizenship courses. David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much his Department [81650] has spent on the Longannet Carbon Capture and Storage project since it was established. [82356] Mr Gibb: Trainees currently receive no bursary for PGCE citizenship courses. Bursaries are an additional Charles Hendry: The Department has spent £60.3 incentive, on top of the full package of student support, million on the Longannet Carbon Capture and Storage to attract teacher trainees. Citizenship has a good record project since it was established to the end of October in attracting enough high quality trainees to meet the 2011. demand from schools for new teachers. We will therefore continue not to offer a bursary for citizenship for those Departmental Photographs who train in 2012/13. We review ITT bursaries each year to ensure that they reflect the level of supply and Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy demand for trainees in each subject. and Climate Change how many official photographs have been taken of (a) Ministers and (b) senior officials in his Department for use in Government publications Young People: Parents since May 2010; how many staff of his Department are expected to undertake photography of the Ministerial Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for and senior leadership team as part of their duties; and if Education how many young parents were in receipt of he will make a statement. [82576] care to learn funding in (a) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency, (b) Middlesbrough local Gregory Barker: Official photographs are taken when authority area, (c) Redcar and Cleveland local authority Ministers or senior officials arrive in the Department if area, (d) Teesside, (e) the North East and (f) nationally required and where a pre-existing photo is not available. in the last year for which figures are available; and how Photos of DECC’s four Ministers were taken by in-house many such recipients were aged 19 years or over. [80765] staff on arrival in May 2010 and have since been used in publications and the departmental website. No photographs of senior officials have been taken since May 2010. Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s There are no designated members of staff expected to Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the Care to undertake photography as part of their duties. Learn allowance for the Department for Education. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written Double Glazing to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland with the information requested and a copy of Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for his reply has been placed in the House Libraries. Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate his Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 24 November 2011: Department has made of the number of domestic properties I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question without double glazing. [82762] PQ80765 that asks: ″How many young parents were in receipt of care to learn Gregory Barker: The latest English Housing Survey funding in (a) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency, report, published in July 2011, shows that in 2009 only (b) Middlesbrough local authority area, (c) Redcar and Cleveland 9% of English homes had no double glazing at all, and local authority area, (d) Teesside, (e) the North East and (f) only 27% were without full double glazing: nationally in the last year for which figures are available; and how http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/pdf/ ″ many such recipients were aged 19 years or over. 1937212.pdf The academic year 2010/11 is the last year for which these figures are currently available. The numbers of young parents Electricity Generation who received funding through the Care to Learn scheme in the 2010/11 academic year in the areas you requested are in the following table. These are the take-up figures as at 31 August 2011. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) if he will re-open his Area/local Department’s consultation on possible models for a authority Total care to learn capacity mechanism to seek views on the issue of phantom (LA) Aged 19 years or over take-up megawatts; [82471] Middlesbrough 738(2) what consideration his Department gave to phantom LA megawatts in its recent consultation on possible models Redcar and 729for a capacity mechanism. [82472] Cleveland LA Gregory Barker: The recent consultation on possible North East 146 509 models for a capacity mechanism considered high level National 2,133 6,622 options for a capacity mechanism. This information is only available by local authority area, and The chosen capacity mechanism design will be so we are unable to provide figures for Middlesbrough South and announced in a technical update to the White Paper, East Cleveland constituency and Teesside. which will be published around the turn of the year. 537W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 538W

The detailed design of the mechanism will be developed Gregory Barker [holding answer 23 November 2011]: in the next phase of the project. I am working closely with Government colleagues to The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, deliver the commitment the Government gave earlier the right hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), this year to create a package of measures to support will not reopen the Department’s consultation on possible those energy intensive industries whose international models for a capacity mechanism. competitiveness is most affected by our energy and climate change policies. We will announce details before Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for the end of the year. Energy and Climate Change (1) if he will urge the We have welcomed industry’s helpful input to the National Grid to introduce a full metering system to development of the package through the Green Economy measure accurately the capacity supplied by short term Council Energy Intensive Industries sub-group. I have operating reserve aggregators; [82473] also met several times with chief executives of energy (2) what his policy is on establishing an independent intensive industries here and in Germany. There are no auditor of the performance of short term operating further plans to discuss measures before our announcement. reserve aggregators. [82474] Energy: Meters

Gregory Barker: National Grid has a metering system Mr Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy to accurately measure the capacity supplied by short and Climate Change whether smart meter rental term operating reserve aggregators in place. companies will be regulated. [82025] To monitor and despatch services from demand side response providers such as aggregators, National Grid Gregory Barker: Ofgem is currently undertaking a installs a standing reserve despatch (SRD) system. This review of metering arrangements in the gas and electricity is connected to the reserve provider’s metering equipment sectors which includes consideration of the role of to allow the amount of reserve from each contracted meter asset providers or “meter rental companies”. provider to be read each minute and communicated Under the current arrangements, suppliers are obliged back to National Grid. Following installation, National to ensure their meter providers are “fit and proper” to Grid then has the discretion to ascertain the accuracy undertake these activities. and adequacy of the metering equipment providing the The Government will consider any recommendations metering signals and of the resultant data sent to the made by Ofgem as part of their review of current SRD system. metering arrangements, in the context of the wider The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, changes to the regulatory framework in the gas and the right hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), electricity markets being made as part of the smart does not plan to establish an independent auditor of the meter programme. performance of short term operating reserve aggregators. Energy: Prices Energy: Business Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) what assessment he has Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy made of the effect of energy companies offering discounted and Climate Change whether the energy-intensive prices to new customers only on competition in the industries due to receive mitigation from the effect of energy market; [82156] the carbon floor price will be given the opportunity to review any measures before they are announced. (2) what discussions he has had with Ofgem on the [81907] issue of energy companies offering discounted prices to new customers only; [82157] Gregory Barker [holding answer 23 November 2011]: (3) whether he has made an estimate of the number I am working closely with Government colleagues to of energy companies operating loss-making tariffs in deliver the commitment the Government gave earlier order to attract new customers; and if he will make a this year to create a package of measures to support statement. [82158] those energy intensive industries whose international competitiveness is most affected by our energy and Charles Hendry: DECC Ministers and officials regularly climate change policies. We will announce details before meet with the Regulator and energy suppliers to discuss the end of the year. a range of market issues. We have welcomed industry’s helpful input to the Following their Probe in 2008, Ofgem introduced development of the package through the Green Economy new rules to prohibit undue discrimination and to ensure Council Energy Intensive Industries sub-group. I have cost reflective pricing between payment methods. In also met several times with chief executives of energy order to allow suppliers to compete for new customers, intensive industries here and in Germany. There are no these rules allow suppliers to offer time limited, introductory further plans to discuss measures before our announcement. tariffs. Competition is vital to ensure consumers get the best Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for possible deal in the marketplace. Part of ensuring effective Energy and Climate Change whether there will be a competition is opening the market to new entrants and further meeting of the Economy Council sub-group for it is therefore important that small suppliers are not energy-intensive industries to review plans for disadvantaged if larger suppliers are cross-subsidising mitigation from the carbon price floor; and whether loss leader deals to attract new customers by charging individual businesses will be consulted on site-specific their ’sticky’ customers higher prices and we have therefore mitigation before it is announced. [82060] asked Ofgem to look into this issue. 539W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 540W

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Energy and Climate Change (1) if he will take steps to Wirral West of 14 November 2011, Official Report, prevent energy companies offering heavily discounted column 643-4W, on taxation: environment protection, deals only to new customers; [82234] what assessment he has made of the effect of measures (2) what recent discussions he has had with major to mitigate the effect of the carbon price floor on energy energy companies on their pricing policies. [82235] intensive industries on emissions from electricity generation; and if he will make a statement. [82517] Gregory Barker: DECC Ministers and officials regularly meet with the Regulator and energy suppliers to discuss Gregory Barker: I am working closely with Government a range of market issues. colleagues to deliver the commitment the Government Following their Probe in 2008, Ofgem introduced gave earlier this year to create a package of measures to new rules to prohibit undue discrimination and to ensure support those energy intensive industries whose cost reflective pricing between payment methods. In international competitiveness is most affected by our order to allow suppliers to compete for new customers, energy and climate change policies. We will announce these rules allow suppliers to offer time limited, introductory details before the end of the year. tariffs. It is important that existing customers are not Government Departments: Solar Power disadvantaged if suppliers are cross-subsidising loss leader deals to attract new customers by charging existing Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for customers higher prices and it is also vital that customers Energy and Climate Change what discussions his can move to the lowest tariff consistent with their Department has had with other Departments on the needs, which should save them money. We have therefore installation of solar PV on (a) any Whitehall department asked Ofgem to look into this issue. buildings and (b) any other Government-owned properties; Environment Protection: Taxation and whether such installations would be eligible for solar photovoltaic feed-in tariffs. [82236] Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) what meetings (a) he, Gregory Barker: The Department has had no such (b) Ministers in his Department and (c) officials in his discussions. Department have had with groups who support the The eligibility of individual installations for the feed-in introduction of measures to assist energy intensive tariffs (FITs) is a matter for Ofgem and licensed electricity businesses affected by the carbon price floor, but who suppliers. There is nothing specifically precluding solar are not included in the Economy Council sub-group for photovoltaic installations on Government-owned buildings energy-intensive industries, to review plans for mitigation being eligible for FITs, if they meet the eligibility criteria. from the carbon price floor; and what the outcome was of such meetings; [82514] Heating (2) what meetings (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Department and (c) officials in his Department have had with groups opposed to the introduction of measures to Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State assist energy intensive businesses affected by the carbon for Energy and Climate Change whether future price floor; and what the outcome was of those meetings. revisions to the Code for Sustainable Homes will [82515] specify the types of central heating systems that are acceptable; and what consideration he has given to the Gregory Barker: I am working closely with Government potential effects of any such revisions on (a) fuel costs colleagues to deliver the commitment the Government and (b) carbon dioxide emissions. [R] [82784] gave earlier this year, 17 May 2011, Official Report, columns 176-177, to create a package of measures to Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. support those energy intensive industries whose The Code for Sustainable Homes is similar to the international competitiveness is most affected by our building regulations in that it sets performance targets energy and climate change policies. We will announce to be met, combined with a functional (technology-neutral) details before the end of the year. approach to sustainable development to help encourage DECC Ministers and officials have met, and receive innovation in this sector. The code does not specify representations from a range of stakeholders in the particular products or systems to meet outcomes. Future development of this package, including non-governmental revisions to the code in respect of central heating will organisations, trade associations, and individual companies. reflect the direction of travel of forthcoming revisions Neither DECC Ministers nor officials have received to Part L of the building regulations, which are representations opposing the objective to provide support underpinning the Government’s policy for all new homes in a package of measures as set out by the Secretary of to be zero carbon from 2016. Where changes to the code State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. are proposed, these will be subject to impact assessment Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne). examining cost issues and the likely effects on emissions.

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for International Physical Protection Advisory Service Energy and Climate Change (1) what assessment he has made of the effect of mitigating the effect of the carbon price floor on energy intensive industries on the policy’s Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy aim of providing certainty and support for low-carbon and Climate Change what information (a) his Department investment; and if he will make a statement; [82516] and (b) nuclear operators provided to the International 541W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 542W

Physical Protection Advisory Service (IPPAS) in support The consideration of any specific investment by Toshiba, of its visit to Sellafield and Barrow; what conclusions or any other inward investor in the UK, would be a were reached by IPPAS; and if he will place in the matter for the company themselves. Library a redacted copy of the final report by IPPAS. [82376] Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs

Charles Hendry: The International Atomic Energy Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency’s (IAEA) International Physical Protection Energy and Climate Change which representatives Advisory Service (IPPAS) Mission Team were presented from the solar photovoltaic industry he consulted when with a range of background material on the legal and drawing up his timetable for the implementation of and regulatory framework for civil nuclear security by my consultation on the new rates for solar photovoltaic Department and the Office for Nuclear Regulation tariffs. [79824] (ONR). Sellafield Ltd and International Nuclear Services provided background information on how this framework Gregory Barker [holding answer 21 November 2011]: is implemented at the Sellafield site and Barrow port. Ministers and officials meet regularly with a range of The IPPAS Mission Team concluded that the state of stakeholders from the solar photovoltaic industry. civil nuclear security in the UK is robust; both in the Details of meetings between DECC Ministers and context of the legal and regulatory framework and how external organisations are published quarterly on the this is implemented at Sellafield site and Barrow. The DECC website. team also identified many examples of good practice in the UK civil nuclear security regime and provided a Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for number of valuable recommendations and suggestions. Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Department The IPPAS Mission Team’s report is a security classified has made of the potential number of bankruptcies that document that contains sensitive site-specific security will occur in the UK solar industry as a result of information and it cannot be made publicly available. planned changes to feed-in tariffs. [81079] Gregory Barker: The Department does not hold relevant Nuclear Installations: Safety information on which to base any estimate of potential bankruptcies. The impact assessment accompanying Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the Government’s consultation on feed-in tariffs (FITs) and Climate Change whether he plans to respond to the for solar photovoltaics (PV), available at: recommendations for specific actions by his Department http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/fits-comp- made by HM Chief Inspector of Nuclear Installations review-p1/3416-fits-IA-solar-pv-draft.pdf in his report on the implications of the Fukushima estimates that new solar PV installations will continue nuclear accident for the UK nuclear industry; and whether to come forward under the proposed changes to FITs he has estimated the cost to his Department of for solar PV. The impact assessment does not estimate implementation of all such recommendations. [82307] the specific impact of the proposed changes on the UK solar industry as a whole. Charles Hendry: As the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) noted in his written Energy and Climate Change what the cost of (a) ministerial statement of 11 October 2011, Official Report, consultations and (b) fast track reviews on feed-in column 20WS, the Government intend to respond to tariffs for solar PV has been since May 2010. [82246] Dr Weightman’s recommendations in more detail by the end of the year. Gregory Barker: The central FITs team in DECC, As with the response to Dr Weightman’s interim with support from DECC economists and lawyers, and report, we will set out what we have done, and what we others where necessary, deals with all aspects of the intend to do, to address the recommendations most feed-in tariffs scheme, including consultations and the pertinent to Government. reviews, so there are no separate costs available for these Nuclear safety is a top priority and as such any aspects of the FITs scheme. associated costs to the Department will be borne out of In addition £41,400 was paid for economic modelling the overall departmental budget. to support the work of DECC economists.

Nuclear Power: Foreign Investment in UK DEFENCE Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what reports he has received Armed Forces Covenant of interest expressed by the Japan Bank for International Cooperation in supporting inward investment by Toshiba Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for in the UK commercial nuclear power programme; and Defence how his Department plans to (a) interpret and if he will make a statement. [82074] (b) apply the Military Covenant under the terms of the Armed Forces Act 2010. [81896] Gregory Barker: We are aware that the Japan Bank for International Cooperation is interested in supporting Mr Robathan: The previous Secretary of State for Japanese industry investment in large-scale infrastructure Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for North projects globally. Somerset (Dr Fox), announced the publication of the 543W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 544W new tri-service armed forces covenant on 16 May 2011, Defender: 2013 Official Report, columns 25-27, setting out the key Duncan: 2014. relationships between the armed forces, the Government and the nation. The covenant set out the principles of The Type 45 destroyers are not delivered by a consortium removing disadvantage in the access to public and but by the prime contractor, BAE Systems Surface commercial services and making special provision in Ships. The PAAMS system is delivered and supported some circumstances. It sets a framework for policy by MBDA. making and delivery across Government and will improve the support available for the armed forces community. Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for The new Armed Forces Act 2011 creates the requirement Defence what the (a) original budget, (b) projected for an annual armed forces covenant report to Parliament. final cost, (c) expected timescales for delivery, (d) It specifies that the armed forces covenant report must primary contractor and (e) identity of additional cover the areas of health care, education, housing and consortium members are in relation to the A400M inquests, as well as any other topics which the Secretary project. [80807] of State for Defence thinks appropriate. When considering what will be covered, the Secretary of State for Defence Peter Luff [holding answer 14 November 2011]: The will have regard to the full range of topics which were initial approved cost for the A400M aircraft was £2.498 identified as within the scope of the armed forces covenant billion, and the current forecast cost to the UK of the when it was published. A400M is £3.105 billion (including training and initial The statutory requirement for an annual armed forces support). This increase is largely due to macro-economic covenant report comes into effect from 2012. However factors including the foreign exchange rate against the we plan to publish an interim report this year, which Euro. The first UK A400M delivery is expected in will provide a useful baseline for the statutory reports September 2014 with the final UK aircraft delivery that will follow. expected in September 2021. The A400M prime contractor is Airbus Military Sociedad Limitada. In addition to Defence Equipment and Support the United Kingdom, the other A400M partner nations are Belgium, France, Germany, Spain and Turkey. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what budget his Department allocated for Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Equipment and Support in the financial year Defence what the (a) original budget, (b) projected 2011-12; how much of that budget has already been final cost, (c) expected timescales for delivery, (d) spent; and what estimate he has made of likely out-turn primary contractor and (e) identity of additional at the end of the financial year. [81900] consortium members are in relation to the Terrier Project. [81167] Peter Luff: The full year near cash budget for Defence Equipment and Support in financial year 2011-12, as at Peter Luff [holding answer 15 November 2011]: The October 2011, is £150,201 million. As at October 2011, original budgetary approval for Terrier was £304 million. spend to date totalled £75,722 million and the current The forecast final cost for demonstration and manufacture forecast for outturn at the end of the financial year is is some £328 million, which reflects the incorporation within budget allocation. Both figures exclude depreciation, of customer driven requirement changes to ensure the write offs, urgent operational requirements and the net vehicle can meet the operational challenges it is likely to additional cost of military operations. Fully audited face. The first 20 vehicles will be ready for operations in out-turn figures will be provided as part of the annual 2013, and all 60 will be in service by the end of 2014. accounts. The prime contractor is BAE Systems Global Combat Systems and the programme does not have any other Defence: Procurement consortium members.

Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) original budget, (b) projected Defence what the (a) original budget, (b) projected final cost, (c) expected timescale for delivery, (d) primary final cost, (c) expected timescales for delivery, (d) contractor and identity of additional consortium members primary contractor and (e) identity of additional are in relation to the Type 45 Destroyer Project. [80516] consortium members are in relation to the Land Environment Picture Provision project. [81169] Peter Luff [holding answer 15 November 2011]: As recorded in the Major Project Report 2011 recently published by the National Audit Office, the original Peter Luff [holding answer 15 November 2011]: The projected cost for six Type 45 destroyers, including the original cash approval for the Land Environment Air Principal Anti-Air Missile System (PAAMS) was Picture Provision (LEAPP) Project was £138 million, approximately £4.75 billion. Currently, the forecasted final cash costs are projected to be £150 million. The final cost is approximately £5.66 billion. The in-service cost growth is a result of a contractual claim settled and schedule for all six Type 45 destroyers is as follows: agreed between the prime contractor and the Ministry of Defence. For delivery, at the main gate decision point Daring: 2010 this was initially February 2012. At the most recent Dauntless: 2010 approval, delivery is now projected for September 2012. Diamond: 2011 The primary contractor is Lockheed Martin UK, and Dragon: 2012 there is no consortium. 545W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 546W

Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for CIS asset Number Defence what the (a) original budget, (b) projected final cost, (c) expected timescales for delivery, (d) Disks (CD/DVD) 194 primary contractor and (e) identity of additional Removable hard disk 72 consortium members are in relation to the Chinook drives Project Julius. [81171] Printers 6 Tapes (Backup) 2150 Peter Luff [holding answer 15 November 2011]: The USB memory sticks 73 original approval for the Chinook Julius project Design Other IT3 135 and Manufacture (D and M) phase, for eight aircraft 1 Includes 21 laptops stolen in one incident during transit in Germany was £132 million. This initial requirement was subsequently and 20 laptops reported lost in another incident which have subsequently expanded by £158 million to enable the Julius Cockpit been recovered. 2 to be integrated into the remainder of the current total Includes 80 legacy backup tapes unaccounted for in one incident. 3 The majority of the “Other” category refers to USB tokens but it Chinook fleet of 46 aircraft, giving a total budget of also includes radios, 3G cards, cameras, keyboards and monitors. £290 million. The current expected outturn cost remains, at £290 million as of 31 October 2011. The first of these For comparison, using laptops as an example, 326 were helicopters will be delivered to the RAF in December lost in 2008 and 129 in 2009. 2011. The prime contractor for the Chinook Julius D and Departmental Pay M is The Boeing Company. They have sub-contracted the design of the cockpit system to Thales (UK) Ltd. Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many officials in his Department received Departmental Lost Property a pay rise other than by promotion in the last two years; and what the average increase was in each such Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence year. [78129] whether his Department has lost any (a) computers, (b) mobile phones, (c) BlackBerrys and (d) other IT Mr Robathan: In financial year (FY) 2010-11, 51,603 equipment since May 2010; and if he will make a employees who are covered by the Ministry of Defence statement. [77412] (MOD)’s main pay arrangements received a pay rise, which was the last year of a three-year pay deal agreed Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) takes in 2008 under the previous Administration. The average any loss and theft of Communications and Information increase was £1,259 (full-time equivalent). From FY Systems (CIS) and associated media storage devices 2011-12 these employees are subject to a two-year pay very seriously. We have robust procedures in place to freeze except for those earning less than £21,000 per mitigate against such occurrences and to manage such annum who are entitled to receive a pay increase of at losses when they do occur. This is reflected in the level least £250. For FY 2011-12, 24,518 employees earning of detail we record, and our policy of including in our less than £21,000 per annum received an increase of an figures incidents when equipment may have been securely average value of £357, which included an element for disposed of without the correct records being kept, shortening the length of the pay scales. where missing items are subsequently located and where In addition to its main pay arrangements, the MOD incidents involve the loss of contractors’ equipment has a number of separate pay arrangements covering which was being used to process Defence information. specialist grades (such as fire service personnel, police, The size and complexity of the MOD, more than teachers, doctors and nurses) where pay is analogued to 250,000 individuals operating all round the world, from comparators in other Government Departments. In permanent bases and in theatre and with frequent 2010-11, 4,988 employees were entitled to pay rises movement of kit between locations in support of operations, under these arrangements which included revalorisation means it is almost inevitable that equipment will go and incremental progression under existing pay deals. missing. Our challenge remains to reduce the number of The average increase was £1,160 (full-time equivalent). such incidents and minimise the risk of any incident For FY 2011-12, 1,288 employees in this group received resulting in the loss of information by ensuring that an average increase of £906. These employees are now devices are encrypted or where this is not possible that subject to a two-year pay freeze in line with the additional security measures are in place. Processes, arrangements for their comparators in other Government instructions and technological aids are being continually Departments. reviewed, revised and implemented to mitigate human MOD trading funds, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and errors and further raise the awareness of every individual locally employed civilians working overseas have their in the Department of their vital role protecting MOD own delegated arrangements for pay and grading and information and assets. are excluded. The following table details how many computers, mobile phones, BlackBerrys and other IT equipment Departmental Redundancy have been reported lost or stolen since May 2010.

CIS asset Number Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) civilian and (b) military Desktop computers 99 redundancies his Department had forecasted would be Laptop computers 1188 made in the 12 months following the Strategic Defence Mobile phones 18 and Security Review; and how many such redundancies BlackBerrys 10 were actually made. [81928] 547W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 548W

Peter Luff [holding answer 23 November 2011]: The Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 22 November Strategic Defence and Security Review set a savings 2011]: We keep the security situation in Libya under target equivalent to a reduction in the civilian workforce close review. While we do not underestimate the significant of 25,000, and a reduction of 17,000 posts in the challenges facing the Libyan authorities, our current regular armed forces by 31 March 2015. The Department’s assessment is that Libya remains largely stable. aim is that, so far as possible, those savings will be made without recourse to compulsory redundancy. For the civilian workforce, allowing for the effects of Seedcorn Initiative normal staff turnover and the current civil service recruitment restrictions, it was estimated that the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Department would need to agree some 15,500 paid Defence (1) how many personnel are taking part in the releases between 1 April 2011 and 31 March 2014. Seedcorn initiative; what the location is of each; and Accordingly, a voluntary early release scheme was launched with what equipment they are training; [81671] in February. By the end of October 2011, 2,589 individuals had left under this scheme. It is important to note that (2) what capabilities are being maintained through these are not redundancies. the Seedcorn initiative; [81672] In respect of reductions within the armed forces, no (3) what estimate he has made of the cost to the specific forecast was made for the number of redundancies public purse of the Seedcorn initiative in each of the in Tranche 1, within the overall envelope of 3,600 posts next five years. [81673] within the different redundancy fields. Some 2,859 were selected for redundancy of whom 1,770 were applicants. Mr Gerald Howarth: The Seedcorn initiative will Notifications were issued by the Army and Royal Air sustain the Ministry of Defence (MOD)’s capability to Force on 1 September 2011, with the Royal Navy following operate high level fixed-wing Maritime Patrol Aircraft on 30 September 2011. Applicants were given six months’ (MPA) and maintain the associated skills of its personnel. notice to leave and others 12 months. Further tranches Qualified RAF aircrew will be on exchange with a are planned, with the second due to be under way in variety of Allied MPA forces, where they will maintain early 2012. their anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, long-range search and rescue, and Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Departmental Reorganisation Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) skills. The estimated cost of the initiative on average is Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for £2.4 million per year for the next five years; this includes Defence if he will publish his Department’s organisational salary and allowances. redesign strategy. [81956] Retaining skills and MPA knowledge is vital if the Mr Philip Hammond: We have agreed the United Kingdom is to be in a position to regenerate our recommendations in Lord Levene’s Defence Reform own MPA capability at some point in the future. report and are working on a detailed departmental The number and location of personnel and equipment blueprint setting out how we will implement them. This to be used is as follows: will be coming forward for ministerial consideration shortly. We will publish our conclusions once they have Number been agreed. We have already established the Defence of Infrastructure Organisation in April 2011, Defence Business Location Aircraft personnel Services in July 2011, and we will set up the new Joint Canada Royal Canadian CP-140 Aurora 7 Forces Command in April 2012. Air Force Greenwood Germany: Military Bases

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for New Royal New P-3K Orion/P-3K2 5 Zealand Zealand Air Force Orion Defence how much he expects his Department to save Base Whenuapai from the re-basing in the UK of troops based in Germany Royal New Beech King Air 1 in each financial year until 2030. [81487] Zealand Air Force B200 Base Ohakea Mr Gerald Howarth [holding answer 22 November 2011]: We expect to make substantial savings as a result Australia Royal Australian AP-3C Orion 4 of returning forces currently based in Germany to the Air Force Base UK. The additional costs to the Ministry of Defence of Edinburgh stationing forces in Germany are at least £250 million a year in allowances and education and medical support. United Naval Air Station Non-flying 1 However, a detailed implementation plan for the return States Norfolk appointment related of British forces is in the process of being developed, so to maritime we do not yet have a profile for the delivery of savings as operational staff these additional costs are reduced. duties. Naval Air Station P3C Orion 2 Libya: Security Patuxent River

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Additionally, discussions are ongoing with the US for Defence what recent assessment he has made of the Navy on an exchange initiative for fully qualified RAF security situation in Libya. [81466] aircrew to support the US P-8A Poseidon programme. 549W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 550W

Syria: Security accounting procedures. The approved initial three year support cost for Watchkeeper is £55 million, with a Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State current forecast cost of £53 million. for Defence what discussions he has had with his NATO Watchkeeper platforms will be delivered in the first counterparts on the security situation in Syria. [81463] quarter of 2012. Thales (UK) is the prime contractor on the Watchkeeper programme. Major subcontractors Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 22 November include Elbit Systems and UAS Tactical Systems Ltd; 2011]: I have discussed a range of security issues with a however Thales are not developing Watchkeeper as part number of my NATO counterparts. In NATO, the of a consortium. North Atlantic Council has met informally to consider the situation in Syria in line with the emphasis the USA: Military Aircraft Alliance’s Strategic Concept places on political consultations. However, the United Nations Security Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Council is the main forum for discussions on Syria. Defence what discussions he has had with the US Navy on the training of Royal Air Force personnel on the P-8 Terrorism: Chemical and Biological Warfare Poseidon aircraft. [81670]

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gerald Howarth: Discussions are progressing with Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the the US Navy on an exchange initiative for fully qualified agreement between the Government and NATO regarding RAF aircrew to support the US P-8 Poseidon programme. Ministry of Defence sites as locations to receive victims in the event of a chemical, biological, radiological or World War Two: Military Decorations nuclear attack. [69757] Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: I will write to the hon. Member. Defence what consideration he is giving to the creation of an official campaign medal for the veterans of the Trident Second World War’s Arctic Campaign. [82464]

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gerald Howarth: Contemporary medal papers Defence (1) if he will publish all the evidence submitted make it clear that the convoys to north Russia were to the Trident Alternatives Review on its completion; considered at the time that the qualifying criteria for the [81681] Second World War Campaign Stars and Medals were (2) how the Government intends to take account of under discussion. the Trident Alternatives Review once it is published. From the outset, the qualifying criteria for the proposed [81690] Atlantic Star were designed to include recognition of service on the Russian convoys. The regulations for the Peter Luff: The review will report jointly to the Prime Atlantic Star specifically allude to the Arctic convoys in Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. the qualifying criteria. I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the However, I gave assurances in Opposition regarding Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the the award of a specific Arctic Convoy Medal and the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), Government recently agreed that there should be a on 21 November 2011, Official Report, column 34W. fresh review of the rules governing the award of military medals. This will be conducted by an independent reviewer Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for with full consultation with interested parties. It will Defence what steps he plans to take to update hon. and make use of all of the work already undertaken as a right hon. Members on the progress and cost of the part of the Ministry of Defence’s earlier review but will Trident replacement programme during the remainder have a broader scope and an independent lead, both of of the Parliament prior to Main Gate. [81682] which are expected to be announced shortly. Mr Philip Hammond: I refer the hon. Member to the Written Questions: Government Responses answer I gave on 21 November 2011, Official Report, column 34W. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Unmanned Air Vehicles Defence when he plans to answer question 77412 tabled on 25 October 2011 for answer on 27 October 2011. [82597] Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) original budget, (b) projected Mr Robathan: I replied to the hon. Member today. final cost, (c) expected timescales for delivery, (d) primary contractor and (e) identity of additional consortium members are in relation to the Watchkeeper Surveillance System project. [81381] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Peter Luff [holding answer 22 November 2011]: The Food Security initial approved cost for the Watchkeeper project was £908 million and the forecast procurement costs are 14. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for £904 million. These are reductions in the previously Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is reported costs due to changes in the Ministry of Defence taking to improve food security in the UK. [82284] 551W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 552W

Mrs Spelman: The Foresight report on the Future of for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), and his ministerial Food and Farming identified the global challenges we team. Our officials also meet regularly to discuss a wide face feeding an estimated population of 9 billion in range of issues. 2050. The UK Government are working at home and abroad to increase resilience, promote open global markets, Natural Environment White Paper boost trade and ensure there will be more food, at less cost to the environment. Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress Farm Administration she has made on the implementation of the plans set out in the Natural Environment White Paper. [82274] 15. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress Richard Benyon: The Natural Environment White she has made in reducing the administrative burden of Paper includes 92 commitments for action. Five months after publication, seven commitments are complete and inspection and regulation on farmers. [82285] significant progress has been made in: running the Mr Paice: In my written statement of 3 November Nature Improvement Area competition; round one of 2011, Official Report, columns 40-41WS, I announced the Local Nature Partnership capacity building fund; the publication of the interim response to the independent and in levels of interest in becoming pilot areas to test Farm Regulation Task Force. We will publish a final biodiversity off-setting. response early in 2012. Rural Broadband

Animal Welfare Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment 16. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for she has made of the effect of poor broadband access Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will on rural businesses. [82283] introduce a unilateral ban on the import of eggs produced in contravention of the welfare of laying hens Richard Benyon: There is evidence that businesses directive. [82286] using the internet outperform those that do not, growing four to eight times faster. We recognise that lack of Mr Paice: The Government have thoroughly investigated broadband availability hampers the potential of rural the possibility of taking unilateral action and bringing businesses and that is why the Government are investing in a UK ban on all imports of egg and egg products £530 million to bring superfast broadband to 90% of which have been produced in conventional cages in the population in all local areas, with at least a functional other member states. There are very significant legal level of access—two megabits per second—to the rest of and financial challenges in instigating a unilateral ban, the population by 2015. but at this stage we are not ruling it out altogether. We will be announcing our enforcement strategy shortly. Agricultural Land Tribunals

17. Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the functions she has had with (a) her EU counterparts and (b) are of the Agricultural Land Tribunals. [77637] ministerial colleagues on the implementation of the welfare of laying hens directive. [82287] Mr Paice: The Agricultural Land Tribunals (ALTs) play an important role in settling disputes and other Mr Paice: Discussions at an EU level are ongoing issues between agricultural tenants and landlords arising and the UK is fully engaged with the Commission, from tenancy agreements held under the Agricultural other member states and the devolved Administrations Holdings Act 1986. For example, ALTs consider in finding a practical enforcement solution. We need to applications: protect those producers across the EU, who will have by close relatives of a deceased or retiring tenant to succeed to complied with the ban, from the risk of competitive an agricultural tenancy; distortion in favour of those who will have maintained by landlords for consent to a notice to quit served on the illegal production after 1 January 2012. tenant; by landlords for a certificate of bad husbandry on the ground Housebuilding that the tenant is not farming in accordance with the rules of good husbandry; 18. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of by tenants for approval to carry out long-term improvements State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what on the holding; and recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of for a direction to provide fixed equipment. State for Communities and Local Government on the ALTs also have a role under the Land Drainage Act building of houses in areas prone to flooding. [82288] 1991 in considering certain drainage disputes between neighbours. Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), and I have regular Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the expected discussions with the Secretary of State for Communities (a) budget and (b) staffing levels will be for Agricultural and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member Land Tribunals in each year to 2014-15. [77638] 553W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 554W

Mr Paice: The administrative support for the Agricultural The report of the Independent Farm Regulation Land Tribunals transferred from DEFRA to Her Majesty’s Task Force published in May 2011 endorsed HSE’s Courts and Tribunal Service as from 31 October 2011. risk-based approach to inspection and its proactive A budget transfer has been agreed between DEFRA approach to improving compliance. The steps HSE are and the Ministry of Justice of £115,000 per annum for taking to promote health and safety within the industry each year of the spending review period until 2014-15. are detailed in the response from the Minister for This includes an element for costs for the equivalent of Employment, Department for Work and Pensions, my 2.6 full-time staff. right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), on 21 November 2011, Official Report, Agriculture column 125W. Common Agricultural Policy Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Department plans to take to promote the sustainable Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent intensification model of food production. [80773] assessment she has made of the potential impact on farmers of proposed reforms to the common agricultural Mr Paice: In the recently published Natural Environment policy; and if she will make a statement. [76984] White Paper, the Government made a commitment to consider how we could increase food production while Mr Paice: The European Commission published its also enhancing the natural environment. This is being draft regulatory proposals concerning the 2014-20 common taken forward through the “Green Food Project”, which agricultural policy on the 12 October, including an is a joint initiative between Government, the farming extensive impact assessment. The proposals were discussed and food industry and environmental and consumer for the first time in the Agriculture and Fisheries Council organisations. meeting on 20 October 2011, which the Secretary of We want to ensure that the UK is making a contribution State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my to the need for global food security and environmental right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), improvement, and is demonstrating leadership in doing and I attended. so. The EU has an important opportunity to agree the Working in partnership with other funders, industry genuine reforms needed to meet the long-term demands and academics, DEFRA is delivering a co-ordinated of the 21st Century. We are disappointed at the lack of framework for research and innovation through initiatives ambition the Commission has shown in their CAP such as the Global Food Security Programme. We are proposals. We do not believe the proposals will benefit also supporting a new Sustainable Agriculture and Food the environment or have the long-term competitiveness Innovation Platform for collaborative Research and of the industry in mind. They root agriculture in the Development funding with industry. This will stimulate past and fall short of addressing future challenges and the development of new technologies which will increase opportunities ahead. The proposals fail to encourage productivity while decreasing the environmental impact the innovation, entrepreneurship and sustainable actions of the food and farming industries. that are essential—and in some ways work against these aims. DEFRA is working with businesses through the Courtauld Commitment and consumers through the DEFRA is currently considering the Council’s Love Food Hate Waste initiative to tackle food waste, a documents in detail and will, as usual, meet with key commitment which was highlighted in the Government’s stakeholder groups to assess the potential impact these recent Waste Policy Review 2011. Making the food may have on UK farm businesses. We will continue to chain more efficient through waste reduction measures discuss the proposals with devolved Ministers, and look will reduce pressure on resources, such as water and forward to further discussions at European level. We energy, required for food production, and will lower will work constructively with member states, the greenhouse gas emissions, therefore making a substantial Commission and—for the first time on CAP Reform—with contribution to producing more food with fewer resources. the European Parliament to deliver the ambitious reform we believe is necessary. Agriculture: Industrial Health and Safety Negotiations on the proposals are under way but this is the start of a long and complex process which will take place alongside negotiations on the next Multi Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Annual Financial Framework 2014-20. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions she has had with the Health and Safety Flood Prevention Executive on the health and safety of agricultural workers. [80893] Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her top Mr Paice: The Secretary of State for Environment, three priorities for flood prevention are for 2012; and if Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the she will make a statement. [82640] Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has had no recent discussions with the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) Richard Benyon: Our priorities for managing flood on the health and safety of agricultural workers. Health risk remain those we set out in the programme for and safety in the agriculture industry is a matter for government. These are taking forward the findings of HSE. the Pitt review to improve our flood defences, avoiding 555W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 556W unnecessary building in areas of high flood risk and Mr Paice: A public consultation looking at the options maintaining an effective and robust capability to respond available for ensuring corporate reporting of greenhouse to flooding emergencies. gas emissions are more widespread and consistent was held between 11 May and 5 July 2011. Food Supply The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Meriden (Mrs Spelman), is currently considering the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Government’s response to the consultation and will progress she has made on the implementation of the make an announcement in the coming months. recommendations of Food 2030. [78100] Sheep Meat: Prices

Mr Paice: “Food 2030”, published by the previous Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Government in January 2010, set out goals for food Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment production and the supply chain, and the changes needed she has made of the effects of recent trends in the price to achieve them. Many of the document’s themes remain of lamb on the lamb industry. [75034] relevant and are still embedded into DEFRA’s policy- making. Mr Paice: From 2007 to 2010 there has been a large Over the last year however DEFRA has been working increase in the ex-farm price of finished sheep, which with a new business plan that places a clear focus on the rose from 237p/kg to 389p/kg.1 need to support a competitive, productive agriculture The value from sheep and lamb production in the and food industry, alongside new commitments to UK rose significantly from £641 million in 2007 to £958 environmental protection and enhancement of the million in 2009. The provisional figures for 2010 continue environment. DEFRA has also welcomed the publication to show growth with an estimated value of £970 million. of the Foresight report on the Future of Food and In this same period (2007-10) the production of sheep Farming, which explores the pressures on the global and lamb meat decreased by over 10%. There was a food system between now and 2050. These pressures similar decline in the number of sheep (8%) over this will undoubtedly influence our policy-making. To this period. However, the latest provisional UK results for aim, we are working with the food chain and other 2011 show a 1% increase in the number of sheep and partners and across Government to ensure that we have lambs to 31.4 million, the first increase since 2004. a sustainable food system capable of dealing with a growing population and changing climate while protecting Movements in ex-farm prices and numbers of sheep, and enhancing the environment. and the production costs, have a bearing on farm incomes in the sheep sector. DEFRA have published farm incomes One particular action we are taking forward in this for a range of farm types in England, including grazing area is the new “Green Food Project”. The project livestock farms (lowland and LFA), for the year ending originated from a commitment we made in the Natural February 2011. Environment White Paper in June 2011 to: 1 GB finished sheep (pence per kg estimated dressed carcass “bring together government, industry and environmental partners weight) average price in each year. to reconcile how we will achieve our goals of improving the References environment and increasing food production” (NEWP page 24, paragraph 2.46). Agriculture in the UK Our intention is that the project will generate conclusions Table 5.15 in June 2012 which we can draw on to help us tackle the http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/files/defra-stats-foodfarm- findings of the Foresight report, and create a more crosscutting-auk-auk2010-110525.pdf strategic framework for agri-food policy going forward. June survey of Agriculture and Horticulture for the UK Table 9—Sheep and Lambs Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/files/defra-stats-foodfarm- Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding landuselivestock-june-statsnotice-uk-111006.pdf her Department has allocated to the Skills Action Plan June survey time series for the food supply chain in each year of the comprehensive UK Livestock numbers 1866 to present spending review period. [81424] http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/foodfarm/landuselivestock/ junesurvey/junesurveyresults/ Mr Paice: The Food Supply Chain Skills Action Plan Farm Business Survey results was a collaborative effort involving Government, industry, http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/foodfarm/farmmanage/fbs/ the Institute of Grocery Distribution and a number of publications/fbsincomes/ sector skills councils. While DEFRA facilitated it, and has one specific commitment to deliver, it does not fund the actions that the other participants have committed to. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Embassies: Opening Hours Greenhouse Gas Emissions Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she will steps to advertise his policy on out-of-hours consular publish her Department’s response to the consultation assistance more widely on his Department’s website. on greenhouse gas emissions. [80273] [81447] 557W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 558W

Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth Kurds: Syria Office (FCO) provides 24-hour support to British nationals in difficulty abroad through its consular staff abroad Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the Secretary of State for and in London. This support is described in our publication Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment “Support for British nationals abroad: A guide”, which he has made of the position of the Kurds in Syria. [R] is available on the FCO website at: [82350] www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/2855621/support-for-british- nationals-abroad.pdf Alistair Burt: Syrian Kurds continue to suffer The Travel and Living Abroad pages on the FCO discrimination by the Assad regime. Although the Syrian website provide clear details of how to contact our staff authorities recently announced a review of the 1962 24 hours a day, specifically at: census, which had revoked the nationality of thousands www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/when-things-go- of Syrian Kurds, around 300,000 of the 1.7 million wrong/ Kurds living in Syria are still without citizenship. We and: hear regular reports of arbitrary arrests, violations of www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/contact Kurdish property rights, and deaths of Kurds in military service. The teaching of Kurdish is prohibited and The FCO’s 24 hour telephone number is also carried on Kurdish festivals are disrupted by the security services. all consular leaflets and publications. Facebook users can link directly to the ″find an Embassy″ facility on the During his meeting with members of Syria’s opposition FCO website. British nationals contacting a British on 21 November, the Secretary of State for Foreign and embassy, high commission or consulate out of office Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member hours will be redirected to the FCO’s global response for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), urged opposition centre and charged a local rate for their call. representatives to unite around a common political platform that will enable the people of Syria to see a Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State pathway to a clear alternative to dictatorship and repression. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy He particularly stressed the importance of respecting is on out-of-hours consular assistance by UK consulates; the rights of minorities, so that all Syria’s citizens are and whether it has changed in the last 18 months. protected and have a stake in the future of the country. [81448] Libya: Asylum Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) provides 24-hour support to British nationals Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in difficulty abroad through its consular staff abroad and Commonwealth Affairs what recent estimate he and in London. This support is described in our publication has made of the number of Libyan refugees on or near “Support for British nationals abroad: A guide”, which Libyan borders. [81492] is available on the FCO website at: Mr Andrew Mitchell: I have been asked to reply. www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/2855621/support-for-british- nationals-abroad.pdf The latest UN estimate, dating from mid October, The Travel and Living Abroad pages on the FCO registered approximately 9,500 Libyan nationals’ as refugees website provide details of how to contact our staff in Tunisia, mostly in the southern governorate of Tataouine. 24 hours a day, specifically at: This number is down from the 13,000 refugees that had been registered by the UN in early September. We www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/when-things-go- wrong/ remain in close contact with the UN refugees agency (UNHCR) to monitor the situation at the Libyan borders. and: www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/contact Lord’s Resistance Army The FCO’s 24 hour telephone number is also carried on all consular leaflets and publications. Facebook users Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for can link directly to the “find an Embassy” facility on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions the FCO website. officials of his Department have had with their counterparts The FCO’s global response centre (GRC) was launched in the US administration on its announcement on sending on 1 April 2009. This changed the way we deliver armed military advisers to assist in the fight against the consular assistance outside of normal office hours. Lord’s Resistance Army; and if he will make a statement. British nationals contacting a British embassy, high [82703] commission or consulate out of office hours are redirected to the GRC and charged a local rate for their call. The Mr Bellingham: Officials in my Department have had GRC will handle the majority of inquiries directly. a number of discussions on this matter with their US Those that require the urgent attention of a consular counterparts, about the terms and the objectives of this officer abroad will be passed to the relevant British deployment. embassy, high commission or consulate, so that a consular The UK welcomes and shares the commitment of the officer can attend. Such cases might include the death US to help bring the Lord’s Resistance Army’s (LRA) of a British national in custody; rape or sexual assault; campaign of atrocities to a sustainable end, including kidnaps; and cases involving vulnerable groups such as through our support to the UN Organisation Stabilisation children or elderly people; and issuing emergency travel Mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo’s documents (ETDs) in cases of genuine emergency such Disarmament, Demobilisation, Rehabilitation, Repatriation as the death or serious illness of a relative requiring and Reconciliation programmes, and our significant urgent travel. humanitarian support to LRA affected areas. As an 559W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 560W active member of the International Working Group Number of applications and initial awards March 2011 to August 2011 (IWG) on the LRA, and through our work with partners Number at the UN Security Council, we are working to improve Applications 757,600 co-ordination of the international response, and ensure that civilians are afforded maximum protection. Initial Awards 525,900 We also call upon the remaining LRA fighters to surrender to local military forces, and for the UN to Initial Decisions 757,900 continue its work to return and reintegrate these fighters Initial Refusals 211,300 back into their home communities. Notes: 1. Figures are from March 2010-11 to August 2011-12 2. Figures are for applications received, not for the number of people Palestine: Peace Negotiations who made an application, and for initial awards made, not the number of people who received an initial award. (Some people made more than one application or received more than one initial award.) Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 3. Figures for initial decisions are based on the applications processed. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he 4. Figures rounded to the nearest 100. has had with the Palestinian National Authority on 5. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics returning to peace negotiations as soon as possible. but in this case we only have Management Information available. It is [82619] not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National statistics and there are some issues with the data, for example, it does not Alistair Burt: We continue to reiterate our calls for include applications which were processed clerically and have not yet negotiations towards a two state solution based on the been entered on to the Social Fund Computer System. Source: timetable set out in the Quartet Statement of 23 September. DWP Social Fund Policy, Budget and Management Information We regularly emphasise the importance of efforts towards System a negotiated solution with the Palestinian National The difference between applications received, initial Authority. decisions, initial awards, and initial refusals is due to: The UK continues to be one of the principal supporters applications being withdrawn; applicants rejecting or of Palestinian state building efforts, assisting them to not responding to loan offers; and applications not tackle poverty, build institutions and boost their economy. decided at the time the count was made. We will continue to engage with the Palestinian leadership Where a budgeting loan offer is accepted but returned and to reinforce the importance of working towards a late, it may still be paid where there is good reason for two-state solution. the delay. If there is no good reason for the delay the applicant is invited to resubmit their application. The Strategic Shrinkage Department does not hold information about the number of responses to loan offers that are made late.

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what criteria his and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 14 November (a) (b) Department uses to define and quantify strategic 2011, Official Report, column 554W, on crisis loans, shrinkage. [81722] whether he has made an assessment of the factors underlying the increase in defaults in March 2011. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office [82041] regards strategic shrinkage as a reduction in Britain’s diplomatic network and our ability to build productive Steve Webb: There has been no change to the policy relationships which further our national interests. for crisis loan defaults during 2010-11. There was a purge in March in the system maintenance on deceased records and this accounts for the associated increase in default loans during that month. WORK AND PENSIONS Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Crisis Loans and Pensions what will replace crisis loan alignment payments for non-claimants of universal credit from April 2013; and which official body or bodies will be Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work responsible for making such awards. [82745] and Pensions how many budgeting loan acceptances have been sent out by his Department in the six months Steve Webb: The current Welfare Reform Bill contains to 31 August 2011; and how many such acceptances provisions which will enable crisis loans for alignment have been received by his Department (a) within the to be replaced by payment on account short-term advances qualifying time and (b) too late. [80150] from April 2013 for both universal credit and all current benefits. These advances will be made at the discretion Steve Webb: Information relating to the number of of the Secretary of State and administered by Jobcentre budgeting loans offered to claimants by the Department Plus and Pensions, Disability and Carers Service. and the number of such offers that are accepted is not gathered. Information is available as to the number of Disability Living Allowance budgeting loan applications, initial decisions, awards and refusals. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Please see the following table for the six month period and Pensions with reference to the report of the Low from March 2011 to August 2011. Review, page 10, what consideration he has given to the 561W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 562W finding that the mobility component of disability living Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and allowance is key to meeting the personal mobility needs Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of of care home providers. [82148] householders who would become subject to the household benefit cap if they were to become unemployed after Maria Miller: When we announced that we would entering an affordable rent tenancy. [82667] not remove the mobility component of disability living allowance from people in residential care from October Chris Grayling: This information is not available as 2012, we said we would review the position in personal the Department can make no estimate of the number of independence payment. This is precisely what we have people who might become unemployed after entering done. We are now considering the findings of the recently an affordable rent tenancy. published review into provision for the mobility needs Jobcentre Plus: Argyll and Brute of care home residents by the noble Lord, Lord Low, before we announce our final decision. Mr Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many full-time equivalent staff were in Disability: Transport post in each Job Centre office in Argyll and Bute constituency (a) on the most recent date for which Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for figures are available and (b) at the end of each of the Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of last five years. [82494] the level of financial assistance for disabled people who cannot use public transport to get to work; and what Chris Grayling: The following table gives the number his policy is on (a) means-testing and (b) regionally of full-time equivalents in each Jobcentre in the Argyll evaluating such assistance. [82642] and Bute constituency as at August 2011, being the latest published data available, and as at March in each of the last five years, with March being the end of the Maria Miller: The Access to Work programme may operational and financial year for which staffing is be able to provide financial assistance for disabled people recorded. unable to use public transport to get to work. Individual disabled people make an application for assistance and Number of full-time equivalents then will discuss with an Access to Work adviser the March March March March March August type and level of support needed. The support that is Jobcentre 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2011 offered differs for each individual and is tailored to meet the disabled person’s specific needs. Campbeltown 11 10799 8 Dunoon 7 10 11 14 12 11 Access to Work is a discretionary programme and Helensburgh 9 8 8 13 12 11 not a formal benefit and is not means tested. Oban 18 16 14 14 13 14 Information on the number of disabled people using Rothesay 7 6487 6 Access to Work and the type of support they receive is Total525044575249 available broken down to regional level. Pensions Housing Benefit Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost to the public Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and purse of uprating pension credit using a consumer Pensions what assessment he has made of the impact of prices index level of (a) 2.5, (b) 3, (c) 3.1, (d) 3.5, (e) the affordable rent model for social housing rents on 4, (f) 4.3, (g) 4.5, (h) 4.6, (i) 4.9, (j) 5.1 and (k) 5.2 the number of households who would be subject to the per cent. in 2012-13. [82752] household benefit cap in each of the next five years. [82666] Steve Webb: The information is in the table.

Steve Webb: The new affordable rent product will Percentage increase Cost (£ million) allow social landlords to charge rents at up to 80% of local market rents. When setting rents, it is expected (a) 2.5 470 that providers will, where possible, utilise the flexibility (b) 3.0 560 to charge rents at 80% of local market rents in order to (c) 3.1 580 maximise delivery of new homes, but landlords should (d) 3.5 650 take into account a number of factors, including the (e) 4.0 750 proposed reforms of the welfare system. (f) 4.3 800 (g) 4.5 840 It is not possible to assess robustly the impact of the (h) 4.6 860 affordable rent model on the number of households (i) 4.9 920 who might be subject to the benefit cap because it is (j) 5.1 950 dependent on the behavioural decisions of housing (k) 5.2 970 providers, and the individual circumstances of future Notes: tenants. 1. Costing based on DWP budget 2011 expenditure forecasts. 2. Costs are rounded to the nearest £10 million. My officials will work very closely with those responsible 3. Costs are compared to a baseline of no uprating and are indicative only. for the Government’s affordable rent policy at the Proposed benefit rates will be announced to Parliament by ministerial statement later in the autumn. Department for Communities and Local Government 4. The costing assumes that housing benefit and council tax benefit rates are in introducing the benefit cap. aligned with those for pension credit. 563W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 564W

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of of children living in poverty are published in the Households people who would be disadvantaged if the roll-out of Below Average Income (HBAI) series. HBAI uses auto-enrolment into pensions at work were to be household income adjusted (or “equivalised”) for household deferred by two years. [82801] size and composition, to provide a proxy for standard of living. Steve Webb: The Department estimates that between 9 million and 10 million people are eligible for automatic Statistics covering 2009-10 are the most recent available. enrolment and are not currently saving in a qualifying The following tables show the number and proportion workplace pension scheme. Delaying automatic enrolment of all children aged 4 to 16 who were in households with for two years would mean these individuals would equivalised disposable income below 60% of contemporary forego the opportunity to save in a workplace pension median income Before Housing Costs (BHC). School-age scheme for those two years. children have been included in the age range 4 to 16 using the definition for a child from the HBAI series. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1: Numbers and proportions of children aged 4 to 16 living in Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of relative poverty (BHC) people who would be eligible for auto-enrolment into pensions at work if companies with 10 or fewer Number (million) Proportion (%) employees were exempted. [82802] Children aged 4-16 1.7 19 Steve Webb: The Department estimates that between 9 million and 10 million people are eligible for automatic Table 2: Numbers and proportions of school pupils aged 4 to 16 living enrolment and are not currently saving in a qualifying in relative poverty (BHC) workplace pension scheme. If companies with 10 or Number (million) Proportion (%) fewer employees were exempted, this would reduce the number of people eligible by between 2 million and 3 Children aged 4-16 1.5 19 million, resulting in an estimate of around 7 million Notes: 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income people eligible for automatic enrolment. (HBAI) data available at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai_arc Poverty: Children 2. Data are sourced from the Family Resources Survey and covers Great Britain up to 1997-98 and the United Kingdom from 1998-99, with estimates for Northern Ireland imputed for the years 1998-99 Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work through 2001-02. The reference period for FRS figures is single and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 4 April 2011, financial years. 3. Disposable household income is adjusted using modified OECD Official Report, column 594W, on children: poverty, equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an what progress he has made in the establishment of the income measure as a proxy for standard of living. Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission; 4. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to whether its remit has changed from that set out in the uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these Child Poverty Act 2010; and if he will make a will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 5. Numbers of people in low-income households have been rounded statement. [79973] to the nearest 100,000, while proportions have been rounded to the nearest percentage point. Maria Miller: As we announced in the Child Poverty 6. Figures have been presented on a Before Housing Cost (BHC) and Social Mobility Strategies published on 5 April basis. For BHC figures, housing costs (such as rent, water rates, mortgage interest payments, buildings insurance payments and ground 2011, we are using the Welfare Reform Bill to make the rent and service charges) are not deducted from income. necessary changes to the Child Poverty Act 2010 to 7. The household level poverty threshold is defined as the 60% of create a Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission. contemporary median equivalised disposable household income. The Bill is currently at Committee Stage in the House of 8. A dependent child is defined in HBAI as an individual aged under Lords. The Commission will be established as soon as 16. A person will also be defined as a child if they are 16 to 19 years old and they are: possible following Royal Assent. not married nor in a civil partnership nor living with a partner; and We believe that the Commission must be an effective living with parents; and public body, which improves accountability and thus in full-time non-advanced education or in unwaged government training. 9. School-age children have been included in the age range 4 to 16 helps to drive progress towards the 2020 goal to eradicate using the definition of a child from HBAI given in point 8. child poverty.It should also assist Government in improving 10. Children have been defined as school pupils if they are attending a social mobility in the UK. We want to achieve these primary school (including reception class); special school; middle-deemed aims by expanding the Commission’s remit to include primary; middle-deemed secondary; secondary/grammar school; or social mobility and by giving the Commission the power any private school (preparatory or secondary). These may be state run or assisted. This classification is independent of the type of qualification to publish annual progress reports on child poverty and being taken forward. The main difference between the populations social mobility. are four-year-olds not having started primary school yet and 16-year-olds who are in non-advanced further education not being counted as Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Work school pupils. Children being home schooled have also not been counted as school pupils. and Pensions (1) what recent estimate he has made of 11. The Child Poverty Act 2010 sets three further income-based the number of school-age children in England living in UK-wide targets to be met by 2020. The targets are based on the poverty; [81611] proportion of children living in households with combined low income and material deprivation, absolute low income and persistent (2) what estimate he has made of the number of poverty. school pupils in England aged between four and 16 Source: living in poverty. [81612] Households Below Average Income 1994/95-2009/10, DWP. 565W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 566W

Social Security Benefits n/a = not available/not applicable ‘—’ = nil or negligible 1 Caseload figures used for Attendance Allowance, Disability Living Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Allowance and and Pensions (1) how many (a) women, (b) men and Carer’s Allowance include those cases with entitlement but where (c) pensioners are entitled to (i) attendance allowance, payment is currently suspended (for example because of an extended (ii) carer’s allowance, (iii) council tax benefit, (iv) dependency stay in hospital or an overlapping benefit). Caseloads for Incapacity increases, (v) disability living allowance, (vi) employment Benefit and Employment Support Allowance include Credits Only cases. and support allowance, (vii) housing benefit, (viii) incapacity 2 IIDB claimants pensioners are defined as women over 60 and men benefit, (ix) income support, (x) industrial injuries over 65. HB/CTB pensioners are defined as those cases where either disablement benefit, (xi) jobseeker’s allowance, (xii) the claimant is aged 65 and over (single people) or the elder of the maternity allowance, (xiii) pension credit, (xiv) the claimant or partner is aged 65 or over (couples). For all other benefits Pneumoconiosis, Byssinosis and Miscellaneous pensioners are defined as those over state pension age. The age at Diseases scheme and the Workmen’s Compensation which women reach state pension age will gradually increase from 60 to 65 between April 2010 and April 2020. This will introduce a small (Supplementation), (xv) state pension, (xvi) severe increase to the number of working age benefit recipients and a small disablement allowance, (xvii) statutory adoption pay, reduction to the number of pension age recipients. Figures from May (xviii) statutory maternity pay, (xix) statutory paternity 2010 onwards reflect this change. pay, (xx) statutory sick pay, (xxi) widow’s benefit and 3 HB/CTB: Gender is not recorded for a large number of cases. Claimants with unknown gender are excluded from the analysis. For (xxii) bereavement benefit; [82753] this reason the number of single and couples in the above table do not (2) if he will estimate the cost of uprating (a) attendance sum to the total number of claimants. allowance, (b) carer’s allowance, (c) council tax benefit, Key: (d) dependency increases, (e) disability living allowance, AA = Attendance Allowance CA = Carer’s Allowance (f) employment and support allowance, (g) housing DLA = Disability Living Allowance benefit, (h) incapacity benefit, (i) income support, (j) ESA = Employment and Support Allowance industrial injuries disablement benefit, (k) jobseeker’s IB/SDA = Incapacity Benefit/Severe Disablement Allowance allowance, (l) maternity allowance, (m) pension credit, IS = Income Support (n) the Pneumoconiosis, Byssinosis and Miscellaneous JSA = Jobseeker’s Allowance PC = Pension Credit Diseases scheme and the Workmen’s Compensation SP = State Pension (Supplementation), (o) state pension, (p) severe WB = Widow’s Benefit disablement allowance, (q) statutory adoption pay, (r) BB = Bereavement Benefit statutory maternity pay, (s) statutory paternity pay, (t) MA = Maternity Allowance (MA) claimants, Great Britain: May statutory sick pay, (u) widow’s benefit and (v) bereavement 2011. IIDB = Industrial Injuries Death Benefit benefit for 2012-13 by (i) 2.5, (ii) 4.3 and (iii) 5.3 per WC = Workmen’s Compensation cent. [82754] PBM = Pneumoconiosis Byssinosis and Miscellaneous Diseases: March 2011 HB/CTB = Housing Benefit /Council Tax Benefit: August 2011 Steve Webb: The information is tabled as follows: Notes: Benefit entitlement1 1. WPLS 100% and SHBE 100% data is rounded to the nearest 10 and 5% sample Number data to the nearest 100. of 2. The partner information is based on the payment of additional claimants benefit which is paid for a partner. Total with a 3. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Benefit claimants Males Females Pensioners2 partner 4. Caseload data are available on the Department’s tabulation tool at: AA 1,760,620 571,910 1,188,700 1,760,620 n/a http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html 5. Pension Credit was introduced on 6 October 2003 and replaced CA 1,020,120 341,240 678,880 418,990 n/a Minimum Income Guarantee (Income Support for people aged 60 or DLA 3,231,330 1,621,050 1,610,280 1,061,010 n/a over). The vast majority of people who were previously in receipt of ESA 662,230 362,640 299,600 — 93,410 the Minimum Income Guarantee transferred to Pension Credit in IB/SDA 1,946,200 1,095,910 850,280 37,470 22,150 October 2003. These Pension Credit statistics are produced on a different basis to the Early Estimates. The latter are more timely but IS 1,703,220 592,560 1,110,660 — 224,250 operational processing times mean that a number of claim commencements JSA 1,404,140 946,100 458,040 — 153,570 and terminations are not reflected in them. PC 2,674,670 1,051,670 1,622,990 — 599,080 6. IIDB caseloads exclude Reduced Earnings Allowance cases. SP 12,616,240 4,871,260 7,744,980 12,616,240 n/a Sources: IIDB, WC ,PBM: DWP Information Governance and Security Directorate WB 44,000 n/a 44,000 — n/a 100% scan BB 64,770 18,590 46,180 — n/a Maternity Allowance: DWP Information Governance and Security MA 54,800 n/a 54,800 — n/a Directorate 5% sample data. IIDB 270,380 217,770 52,620 141,090 n/a Housing Benefit: Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) All other benefits: DWP Information Governance and Security Directorate Pre- 100% 1948 Works and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) schemes: WC 80 70 10 80 n/a Cost of uprating PBM 80 Total 60 20 80 n/a £ million Percentage uprating Number Total Single Single of (i) 2.5 (ii) 4.3 (iii) 5.3 claimants3 males females couples Pensioners2 Attendance Allowance 140 240 290 HB 4,909,510 1,371,950 2,503,550 1,023,240 1,279,120 Carer’s Allowance 40 80 90 CTB 5,860,150 1,399,060 2,986,590 1,461,510 2,210,160 Council Tax Benefit 10 10 10 567W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 568W

Cost of uprating Welfare Reform: Chronic Pain £ million Percentage uprating Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (i) 2.5 (ii) 4.3 (iii) 5.3 and Pensions what steps he is taking to take into Dependency increases * * * account the situation of people living with (a) chronic Disability Living Allowance 320 540 670 pain and (b) other conditions that are not physically Employment and Support 150 260 320 evident in his proposals for welfare reform. [81283] Allowance Housing Benefit 20 40 50 Maria Miller: We do not believe it right that we Incapacity Benefit 40 60 80 should judge people purely on the type of health condition Income Support 120 210 260 or impairment that they may have. As such neither the Industrial Injuries 20 40 50 work capability assessment nor the assessment for personal Disablement Benefit independence payment which we are currently developing, Jobseeker’s Allowance 110 190 230 focus on the health condition or impairment a claimant Maternity Allowance 10 10 20 has, neither do they require a specific diagnosis. Instead Pension Credit 360 630 770 they look at the impact of these and their symptoms, Pneumoconiosis Byssinosis ***such as pain, on individuals. The work capability assessment and Miscellaneous Diseases focuses on the impact of health conditions or impairments scheme and the Workmen’s on capability for work, while the assessment for personal Compensation independence payment will focus on their impact on (Supplementation) ability to carry out a series of key everyday activities. State Pension 2,060 3,620 4,490 Severe Disablement 20 40 50 In both assessments, basing decisions on the best Allowance available evidence is critical. This means giving the Statutory Maternity Pay 30 70 90 claimant the opportunity to tell us about the impact of Statutory Sick Pay * * * their health condition or impairment in their own words Bereavement benefits 10 20 30 and considering evidence from others involved in supporting claimants, such as GPs, hospital specialists or carers. In Notes: 1. Figures are in cash terms, rounded to the nearest £10 million. most cases, this will also involve a face-to-face assessment 2. Figures less than £10 million are denoted by ‘*’. with a health professional trained in disability assessment 3. Effects in income-related benefits (CTB, ESA, HB, IS, JSA and medicine, to explore claimants’ individual circumstances PC) include offsetting effects from income from other benefits being in detail. This ensures that decisions take effective account brought to account. of the impact of health conditions or impairments, 4. Bereavements benefits includes Widow’s Benefit. 5. Cost are based on Budget 2011 forecasts. regardless of their type. 6. Costs are compared to a baseline of no uprating and are indicative only. Proposed benefit rates will be announced to Work Capability Assessment Parliament by ministerial statement later in the autumn.

Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many Atos work capability Welfare Reform Bill assessments took over 35 days in (a) England and (b) Makerfield constituency in the latest period for which figures are available. [82439] Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what discussions (a) he and (b) Chris Grayling: In October 2011 the number of Atos Ministers in his Department have had with the Secretary work capability assessments taking over 35 days was: of State for Scotland on the Scottish Parliament’s request (a) in England 63,706; for oral evidence on the Welfare Reform Bill. [82508] (b) of which 741 were completed at Wigan MEC which is the nearest Medical Examination Centre to Makerfield constituency. Chris Grayling: Neither the Secretary of State for Work capability assessments include employment support Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member allowance (ESA) assessments which have an average for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), actual clearance time (AACT) target of 35 days and nor any Ministers in the Department, have had any other assessments which do not. direct discussions with the Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Selkirk (Michael Moore), about the Scottish Parliament’s Work and Pensions how many people were refused request for oral evidence on the Welfare Reform Bill. employment and support allowance following an assessment However, the Department keeps in regular contact carried out by Atos and subsequently appealed the with the Scottish Government on the subject of welfare decision in (a) England and (b) Makerfield constituency reform at both ministerial and official levels. in the latest period for which figures are available. [82440] Officials in the Department contacted the Scotland Office to discuss the invitations received to appear Chris Grayling: Decisions on entitlement to employment before Scottish Committees. and support allowance (ESA) using the work capability One of the Department’s senior officials gave evidence assessment (WCA) rest solely with the Department’s on the Welfare Reform Bill to the Health and Sport decision makers taking into account the medical assessment Committee on 22 November 2011. reports from Atos and any other relevant information. 569W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 570W

Table 1 provides details of initial WCAs completed cumulatively. Therefore assessments undertaken within and appeals heard for claims starting between October one week might only be updated in the data as completed 2008 and August 2010 (the latest data for which sufficient in subsequent weeks. volumes of appeals have been heard for publication). Due to the overall length of the incapacity benefits Information is not available at parliamentary constituency reassessment process, information on the entire process level, so information for Wigan local authority has been including the final outcomes and subsequent destinations given instead. of claimants being reassessed is not yet available. The Table 1: Outcomes of initial work capability assessment and appeals Department plans to publish data on the outcomes of for England and Wigan local authority for claims starting between the reassessment process, but only once it has been October 2008 and August 2010 quality assured and is considered robust. England Wigan local authority

All completed WCAs 609,100 5,500 JUSTICE Fit for work 373,500 3,300 Assessed as fit for work 61 61 Children: Protection (percentage) Appeals heard1 142,100 1,200 Fit for work with an appeal 38 38 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice heard1 (percentage) what assessment he has made of the possible implications 1 To date. for (a) Criminal Records Bureau checks and (b) child Notes: protection of the extension of the Shared Accommodation 1. The Department regularly publishes official statistics on the Rate of Local Housing Allowance to (i) 25 to 34 year employment and support allowance (ESA) work capability olds who are (1) parents with part-custody of their assessment at the national level. The latest report, published in children and (2) women up until the latest stage of October 2011 and can be found here: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/ workingage/index.php?page=esa_wca pregnancy and (ii) other 25 to 34 year olds; and if he 2. The data presented above comes from benefit claims data held by will make a statement. [81117] the Department for Work and Pensions, functional assessment data from Atos Healthcare and appeals data from the Tribunals Service. Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. 3. Data on appeals includes ESA claims started from October 2008 up to the end of August 2010 (the latest month where we have It is not possible to assess any increased risk to sufficient volumes of appeals heard to include in the publication) children by extending the age threshold of the shared where the person claiming has been assessed to be Fit for Work, they accommodation rate. Criminal Record Bureau checks subsequently appeal the Department’s decision and the appeal has are not appropriate in these circumstances and so we do been heard by Tribunals Service. 4. Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted to the not anticipate there being any implications for these. Tribunals Service and heard, it is likely that there are more appeals that have not yet been heard. Therefore these figures should be Community Orders treated as emerging findings rather than final at this stage. 5. All figures have been rounded to the nearest 100 and are Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State consistent with the official statistics publication referred to in note 1. above. for Justice pursuant to the answer of 10 November 2011, Official Report, column 423W, on community orders: voluntary organisations, if he will consider the Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for merits of allowing (a) charities and (b) community Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer to the hon. amateur sports clubs the opportunity to claim dispensation Member for Aberdeen South of 1 November 2011, from charges of community payback fees by the probation Official Report, columns 523-4W, on work capability authorities; and if he will make a statement. [82734] assessment, if he will publish the data on the number of work capability assessments for reassessed incapacity Mr Blunt: The voluntary sector, including charities benefit claimants which were carried out in each week and sports clubs, is the largest single beneficiary of since February 2011. [82502] Community Payback work. The majority of beneficiary organisations are not currently required to make a Chris Grayling: Up to the week commencing 14 contribution to the cost of offender supervision. Where November 191,000 work capability assessments (WCA) probation trusts, and in future potentially other providers resulting from reassessment had been completed. After of Community Payback, do seek a contribution towards the WCA, the decision on entitlement to benefit is taken costs, due regard will be given to the circumstances of by a DWP decision maker. the organisation which benefits from the work. There needs to be a proper balance between these organisation’s No official statistics are available on WCA completed circumstances and the need for Community Payback to for IB reassessment claimants so the information on the work for society as a whole; preventing a disproportionate number of WCA completed above is from the Department’s charge on the taxpayer; and preventing consumption of Management Information System. It relates to those resources that could be directly targeted on services for assessments where Atos have made a recommendation direct victims of crime. based on either a face to face assessment or cleared by scrutiny of the customer’s medical questionnaire. It Departmental Public Expenditure does not include those customers whose WCA recommendations were returned to Jobcentre Plus because Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice they had not complied with the process. what budget his Department allocated to the (a) A weekly or monthly breakdown of the Management Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, (b) Information is not reliable because the data are captured Assessor for Compensation for Miscarriages of Justice, 571W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 572W

(c) Civil Justice Council, (d) Civil Procedure Rule Office for Judicial Complaints. Committee, (e) Criminal Cases Review Commission, In respect of the following bodies the cost is neutral (f) Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, (g) because these bodies are funded by levies upon the legal Criminal Procedure Rule Committee, (h) Crown Court profession: Rule Committee, (i) Family Justice Council, (j) HM Legal Services Board Inspectorate of Prisons, (k) HM Inspectorate of Probation, Legal Ombudsman. (l) Insolvency Rules Committee, (m) Judicial Appointments Commission, (n) Judicial Appointments As at 31 October 2011, no resource budget allocation and Conduct Ombudsman, (o) Judicial Office, (p) has been provided to the Crown Court Rule Committee. Law Commission, (q) Legal Services Board, (r) Legal Services Commission, (s) National Offender Management Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals Service, (t) Probation Service, (u) Court Funds Office, (v) Office of the Information Commissioner, (w) Office Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for for Judicial Complaints, (x) Legal Ombudsman, (y) Justice how many and what proportion of employment Office of the Public Guardian, (z) Official Solicitor and support allowance appeals have been adjourned and Public Trustee, (aa) Parole Board, (ab) Prisons and since 28 February 2011; and how many such appeals Probation Ombudsman, (ac) Sentencing Council, (ad) were classified category used in social security and Tribunal Procedure Committee, (ae) Commissioner for child support appeal tribunals. [82694] Victims and Witnesses and (af) Youth Justice Board in the financial year 2011-12. [82519] Mr Djanogly: Appeals against decisions made by the Department for Work and Pensions on an individual’s Mr Kenneth Clarke: The resource budget allocations entitlement to employment and support allowance (ESA) for 2011-12, as at 31 October 2011, are as follows: are heard by the First-tier Tribunal (Social Security and Child Support). Organisation/body £000 A total of 12,565 ESA appeals were adjourned between Administrate Justice and Tribunals Council 682 1 March 2011 and 30 September 2011 (the latest date Criminal Cases Review Committee 6,050 for which statistics have been published); 11.3% of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority 200,200 total number of ESA appeals listed. HM Inspectorate of Prisons 3,634 There are four adjournment categories used in SSCS HM Inspectorate of Probation 3,848 tribunals and the adjourning judge determines the most Judicial Appointments Commission 5,520 appropriate category for the case being dealt with. The Judicial Appointments and Conduct Ombudsman 534 following table shows a breakdown of the reasons for Judicial Office 19,524 adjournments in this time period: Law Commission 3,165 Appeals adjourned March to September 2011 Legal Services Commission 2,251,400 Adjournment reason as recorded at Number of National Offender Management Service 2,801,647 hearing appeals Percentage Probation Service 820,000 Tribunal Not Ready to Proceed 197 2 Office of the Information Commissioner 4,586 Administrators Not Ready to 524 4 Office of the Public Guardian (457) Proceed Official Solicitor and Public Trustee 5,158 Applicant Not Ready to Proceed 3,868 31 Parole Board 10,014 First Tier Agency Not Ready to 7,976 63 Prisons and Probation Ombudsman 5,546 Proceed Sentencing Council 1,620 Total 12,565 100 Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses 1,100 Youth Justice Board 393,939 Some examples of the circumstances under which the four categories may be used, are as follows: The final budget may vary depending on actual Tribunal not ready to proceed expenditure and the Ministry’s priorities. Where the Tribunal requires additional evidence. The Office of the Public Guardian is currently budgeting Where an applicant was known to a tribunal panel member. to receive more income than its expenditure. This is reflected in the organisation’s budget. Administrators not ready to proceed Failure by administrative staff to provide sufficient notice of Budgets for the following bodies are part of larger the appeal hearing. budgets within the core Department for which no distinct budget allocation is made. Failure to observe a previous direction given by a judge. Arrangement of incorrect panel composition. Assessor for Compensation for Miscarriages of Justice Civil Procedure Rule Committee Applicant not ready to proceed Criminal Procedure Rule Committee Where the applicant requests more time to submit evidence or appoint a representative. Insolvency Rules Committee The applicant is unable, due to medical or other reasons, to Court Funds Office continue with the hearing. Tribunal Procedure Committee. First-tier Agency not ready to proceed Budgets for the following bodies are now part of the The submission from the Agency is incomplete/defective or Judicial Office budget quoted above: illegible. Civil Justice Council The Agency may seek more time to consider evidence handed Family Justice Council in on the day. 573W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 574W

European Court of Human Rights whether there have been any further declarations of incompatibility under section 4 of the Human Rights Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Act 1998 since those answers. [82561] (1) what progress he has made in seeking reform of the European Court of Human Rights since the UK Mr Kenneth Clarke: There have been no further assumed the Chairmanship of the Council of Europe; declarations of incompatibility under section 4 of the and what meetings he (a) has held and (b) plans to Human Rights Act 1998 since my previous answers. hold with representatives from (i) the Council of The last such declaration was made in November 2010 Europe, (ii) the European Court of Human Rights, (iii) in the case of R (on the application of Royal College of the Council of Europe’s Committee of Ministers, (iv) Nursing and others) v. Secretary of State for Home the Council of Europe’s Commissioner for Human Department. Rights and (v) his counterparts from other countries to discuss the reform of the European Court of Human Insolvency Rights; [82118] (2) whether he plans to propose changes to the Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice European Convention on Human Rights as part of the if he will seek to exempt insolvency proceedings from UK Chairmanship of the Council of Europe. [82119] proposed changes to conditional fee arrangements and after-the-event insurance. [82357] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The UK assumed the Chairmanship of the Council of Europe on 7 November. Mr Djanogly: I refer my hon. Friend, to my answer As I stated in my answer of 11 October 2011, Official on 13 September 2011, Official Report, column 871. Report, columns 23-24WS, the top priority for the UK The Government are aware of the particular issues Chairmanship is reform of the European Court of concerning the impact of the changes to conditional fee Human Rights. We aim to deliver a key stage of the agreements and after the event insurance in insolvency reform process that has been ongoing for some years. proceedings. Departmental officials and I continue to The way the Court works is set out in the Convention, discuss the likely impacts of these changes in relation to so reform could involve changes to the Convention if all insolvency proceedings. 47 member states of the Council of Europe agree to it. We will be negotiating and agreeing a package of reforms Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill with all member states during our Chairmanship. The Commission on a Bill of Rights has also provided Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for interim advice on Court reform, which we will be taking Justice how many people (a) pleaded guilty and (b) into account during our negotiations. were found guilty for a second time of each offence My ministerial colleagues and I have discussed the listed in Schedule 16 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and reform of the European Court of Human Rights with Punishment of Offenders Bill in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009 and many key figures in the run up to our Chairmanship, (iii) 2010. [82521] many of which I met when I attended the Izmir Conference earlier this year during the Turkish Chairmanship. We Mr Blunt: The following table shows the number of will continue this approach in the coming months. people who were convicted for a second time for each For example, I met the Secretary General to the offence listed in schedule 16 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing Council of Europe during his visit to the UK on 25 and Punishment of Offenders Bill, in the years 2008 to October, as did several other Government Ministers. 2010. Attempted offences and offences involving aiding, The Attorney-General, my right hon. and learned Friend abetting, conspiracy and incitement are classified with the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), met with the main offence, and have not been separately identified. Court judges and officials during his visit to Strasbourg We do not hold reliable information on whether or on 2 November and the Secretary of State for Foreign not these offenders pleaded guilty. The figures relate to and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the separate sentencing occasions; where an offender was Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), attended sentenced on the same occasion for several offences it is the handover ceremony in Strasbourg on 7 November. the primary offence that has been counted. These figures Last week, the Attorney-General and the Minister of have been drawn from the police’s administrative IT State, Lord McNally, attended a conference on the system, the police national computer, which, as with long-term future of the Court at Wilton Park with any large scale recording system, is subject to possible representatives from across the Council of Europe and errors with data entry and processing. The figures are its member states. I am due to meet the Council of provisional and subject to change as more information Europe’s Commissioner for Human Rights when he is recorded by the police. visits the UK in December. Number of people who were convicted for a second time for each My ministerial colleagues and I have also been raising offence listed in schedule 16 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and the issue of reform of the Court with our ministerial Punishment of Offenders Bill, in the years 2008 to 2010 counterparts in other member states where there has Offence 2006 2009 2010 been opportunity for discussion. Manslaughter 1 — — Human Rights An offence under section 4 of the Offences ——— against the Person Act 1861 (soliciting Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State murder) for Justice pursuant to the answers of 26 April 2011, An offence under section 18 of that Act 194 176 188 Official Report, columns 144-49W and 6 September (wounding with intent to cause grievous bodily harm) 2011, Official Report, column 383W, on human rights, 575W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 576W

Number of people who were convicted for a second time for each Number of people who were convicted for a second time for each offence listed in schedule 16 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and offence listed in schedule 16 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, in the years 2008 to 2010 Punishment of Offenders Bill, in the years 2008 to 2010 Offence 2006 2009 2010 Offence 2006 2009 2010

An offence under section 16 of the Firearms 11—An offence under section 15 of that Act —— 1 Act 1968 (possession of a firearm with intent (meeting a child following sexual grooming to endanger life) etc) An offence under section 17(1) of that Act ———An offence under section 25 of that Act ——— (use of a firearm to resist arrest) (sexual activity with a child family member) if the offender is aged 18 or over at the time of An offence under section 18 of that Act 12—the offence (carrying a firearm with criminal intent) An offence under section 26 of that Act ——— An offence of robbery under section 8 of the ———(inciting a child family member to engage in Theft Act 1968 where, at some time during sexual activity) if the offender is aged 18 or the commission of the offence, the offender over at the time of the offence had in his possession a firearm or an An offence under section 30 of that Act ——— imitation firearm within the meaning of the (sexual activity with a person with a mental Firearms Act disorder impeding choice) if the offender is An offence under section 1 of the Protection 70 59 70 liable on conviction on Indictment to of Children Act 1978 (indecent images of imprisonment for life children) An offence under section 31 of that Act ——— An offence under section 56 of the Terrorism ———(causing or inciting a person with a mental Act 2000 (directing terrorist organisation) disorder to engage in sexual activity) if the An offence under section 57 of that Act ———offender is liable on conviction on indictment (possession of article for terrorist purposes) to imprisonment for life An offence under section 34 of that Act ——— An offence under section 59 of that Act ——— (inducement, threat or deception to procure (inciting terrorism overseas) if the offender is sexual activity with a person with a mental liable on conviction on indictment to disorder) if the offender is liable on imprisonment for life conviction on indictment to imprisonment for An offence under section 47 of the Anti- ———life terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (use An offence under section 35 of that Act ——— etc of nuclear weapons). (causing a person with a mental disorder to An offence under section 50 of that Act ———engage In or agree to engage in sexual activity (assisting or inducing certain weapons-related by inducement etc) if the offender is liable on acts overseas) conviction on indictment to imprisonment for An offence under section 113 of that Act (use ———life of noxious substance or thing to cause harm An offence under section 47 of that Act ——— or intimidate) (paying for sexual services of a child) against a person aged under 16 An offence under section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 (rape) An offence under section 48 of that Act ——— (causing or inciting child prostitution or An offence under section 1 of the Sexual 11 9 4 pornography) Offences Act 2003 (rape) An offence under section 49 of that Act ——— An offence under section 2 of the Sexual ———(controlling a child prostitute or a child Offences Act 2003 (assault by penetration) involved in pornography) An offence under section 4 of that Act ———An offence under section 50 of that Act ——— (causing a person to engage in sexual activity (arranging or facilitating child prostitution or without consent) if the offender is liable on pornography) conviction on indictment to imprisonment for An offence under section 62 of that Act ——— life (committing an offence with intent to commit An offence under section 5 of that Act (rape —12a sexual offence) if the offender is liable on of a child under 13) conviction on indictment to imprisonment for An offence under section 6 of that Act ———life (assault of a child under 13 by penetration) An offence under section 5 of the Domestic ——— An offence under section 7 of that Act (sexual 10 3 3 Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 assault of a child under 13) (causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable adult) An offence under section 8 of that Act ——— An offence under section 5 of the Terrorism ——— (causing or inciting a child under 13 to Act 2006 (preparation of terrorist acts) engage In sexual activity) An offence under section 9 of that Act ——— An offence under section 9 of that Act (sexual 6118(making or possession of radioactive device activity with a child) or materials) An offence under section 10 of that Act —11An offence under section 10 of that Act ——— (causing or inciting a child to engage in sexual (misuse of radioactive devices or material and activity) misuse and damage of facilities) An offence under section 11 of that Act 232An offence under section 11 of that Act ——— (engaging in sexual activity in the presence of (terrorist threats relating to radioactive a child) devices, materials or facilities) An offence under section 12 of that Act ———Murder 2 — 2 (causing a child to watch a sexual act) An offence under section 5 of the Sexual —— 1 An offence under section 14 of that Act ———Offences Act 1956 (intercourse with a girl (arranging or facilitating commission of a under 13) child sex offence) Total 298 266 282 577W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 578W

Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned Justice if he will place in the Library a copy of his for publication in the spring of 2012. Department’s risk register for the Legal Aid, Sentencing No general estimate has been made of costs of and Punishment of Offenders Bill. [82522] prosecuting this offence each year. No central record is maintained by the Crown Prosecution Service or for the Mr Djanogly: The financial and delivery risks associated public purse as a whole of the costs of prosecuting with the policy in the Bill are contained in several specific offences at this level of detail. documents at corporate and operational level across the Department, rather than in a specific Bill risk register. An estimate is available for average Crown court The impact assessments and equality impact assessments costs of prosecutions related to misconduct in public for the Bill detail the potential impacts of the proposals. office, for 2009-10 and 2010-11. These were £427,000 These are published at: and £422,000 respectively, based on a five-hour sitting http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/bills-and-acts/bills/ day. legal-aid-and-sentencing-bill.htm Prison Accommodation Misconduct in Public Office: Prosecutions Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for how much increased operational capacity in each prison Justice what representations he has received on the cost in England and Wales is due to (a) new prison of prosecuting the offence of misconduct in public accommodation becoming available, (b) existing office. [81416] accommodation being returned to use, (c) an increase in multiple occupancy of prison cells and (d) other Mr Blunt: My Department has not received any measures since 1 August 2011. [82453] representations on the cost of prosecuting the offence of misconduct in public office. Mr Blunt: Between Friday 29 July and Friday 18 November 2011 the operational capacity of the total Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for prison estate increased by 1,253 places. The following Justice how many prosecutions for the offence of table shows the number of places during this period misconduct in public office there were in each year which were delivered as a result of (a) new prison since 2005; and what estimate he has made of the cost accommodation becoming available, (b) existing (a) (b) to the Crown Prosecution Service budget and accommodation being returned to use, (c) an increase the public purse of prosecuting this offence in each in multiple occupancy of prison cells and (d) other year. [81417] measures. Mr Blunt: The number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for misconduct in a Public Office Number under Common Law, in England and Wales, from 2005 (a) new prison accommodation 338 to 2010 (latest available) can be viewed in the following becoming available table: (b) existing accommodation being 983 returned to use Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for ‘Misconduct in a public office’1,2 England and Wales, 2005 to 20103,4 (c) an increase in multiple 630 occupancy of prison cells Proceeded against (d) other measures (these are places 108 2005 10 returning to use at Morton Hall following its change of function to 20065 8 an immigration removal centre) 2007 21 Total 2,059 20086 12 2009 3 The table does not reflect those places that have been 2010 3 taken out of use during this period. Places can be taken 1 Is an offence under common law. out of use for a number of reasons. These include the 2 Defendants proceeded against for conspiring, aiding or abetting a recent operational closure of HMP Latchmere House public official to commit Misconduct in a Public Office are excluded and one house block at HMP Hewell. Other decreases from the data in the above table. 3 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons are the result of accommodation being taken out of use for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they for essential maintenance/refurbishment. were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or These figures have been drawn from administrative more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory system, are subject to possible errors with data entry maximum penalty is the most severe. and processing. 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have Prisoners: Pregnant Women been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice taken into account when those data are used, how many pregnant women were given a custodial 5 Figures provided for 2006 are the result of a validation process sentence in each of the last five years. [82503] between MoJ and the courts. 6 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July, and August 2008. Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Source: Database holds information on offences provided by Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice the statutes under which proceedings are brought but 579W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 580W not all the circumstances of each case. It is therefore not We do not hold information centrally on women possible to identify from these centrally held data whether giving birth while serving their sentence, to obtain this a female, sentenced to immediate custody, was pregnant. could be done only at disproportionate cost. Prosecutions: Metals Prisons: Mother and Baby Units Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many scrap metal dealers convicted of Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice offences under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 have (1) how many mothers with babies were held in prison been the subject of an order under section 4 of that Act in each of the last five years; [82505] in each year from 1990 to 2011; [82362] (2) how many female prisoners applied for and were (2) how many scrap metal dealers have been found refused a place in a mother and baby unit in each of the guilty of an offence under section 1(8) of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 resulting in a fine in each year last five years; [82506] from 1990 to 2011; [82363] (3) how many women gave birth while serving a (3) how many scrap metal dealers have been custodial sentence in each of the last five years. [82504] prosecuted under section 2 of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 in each year from 1990 to 2011; and how Mr Blunt: Between 1 May 2010 and 31 March 2011 many such prosecutions resulted from a failure to the average population of mothers in mother and baby comply with section 2(4) of that Act. [82361] units in prisons in England was 54. The population of mother and baby units includes expectant mothers. Mr Blunt: Data reported centrally for offences proceeded against under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 do not Between 1 May 2010 and 31 March 2011 there were separately identify sections within the Act. Information 254 applications received for admission to a mother and is given in the table for the number of defendants baby unit, of which, 26 were refused by a board. proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty, Information prior to this date could be provided only sentenced and fined at all courts under the Scrap Metal at a disproportionate cost. These figures have been Dealers Act 1964, in England and Wales, for the years drawn from administrative IT systems, which as with 2000 to 2010 (latest available). any large-scale recording system, are subject to possible Court proceedings data for 2011 are planned for errors with data entry and processing. publication in the spring of 2012.

Defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty and sentenced at all courts, by result, under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 19641, England & Wales, 2000-102,3 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20084 2009 2010

Proceeded 43—55755191021 against Found 21——131512518 guilty Sentenced21——131512518 Fine2 1——— 3— 411410 Conditional ———— 1— 11118 discharge 1 Includes: Offences by dealers in scrap metal and similar goods and in marine stores. 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates’ court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Supreme Court: Public Appointments Work Capability Assessment: Appeals

Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for what recent discussions he has had on (a) enlarging the Justice what proportion of work capability assessment appointing commission and (b) reforming the decisions made by Atos were overturned on appeal in appointment procedure for justices in the Supreme (a) England and (b) Makerfield constituency in the Court. [82218] latest period for which figures are available. [82441] Mr Kenneth Clarke: On 21 November 2011, I issued a Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals public consultation on judicial diversity and appointments, Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Department which includes proposals on the appointments process for Work and Pensions decisions on entitlement to for justices in the Supreme Court. employment and support allowance (ESA) (decisions in Before launching the public consultation, I shared an which the work capability assessment is a key factor) early draft of the proposals with the President of the rather than appeals against work capability assessment Supreme Court. decisions themselves. The following tables show the 581W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 582W proportion of employment and support allowance appeals statistics have been published) and in the first two cleared at hearing, which were found in favour of the quarters of 2011-12. The Wigan Tribunal venue hears appellant in (a) England and (b) the Wigan Tribunal appeals from Makerfield constituency as well as other venue in September 2011 (the latest date for which nearby locations.

Outcomes of ESA appeals 1 September 2011 to 30 September 2011 No. cases No. Decided in cleared at No. of DWP Favour of hearing Decisions Upheld % Upheld Appellant % in Favour Other % other

England1 10,898 6,895 63 3949 36 48 0 Wigan 119 80 67 38 32 0 0

Outcomes of ESA appeals 1 April 2011 to 30 September 2011 No. cases No. Decided in cleared at No. of DWP Favour of hearing Decisions Upheld % Upheld Appellant % in Favour Other % other

England1 66,158 41,405 63 24,388 37 365 1 Wigan 667 447 67 218 33 2 0 1 This includes data for all venues based in England. Cases may occasionally be dealt with outside England, in Wales and Scotland. Note: This data is taken from management information.

Youth Custody Youth Justice Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people under the age of 18 were held in how many people entered the youth justice system for the custody in England and Wales in each year between first time in each year between 1996-97 and 2010-11. 1996-97 and 2010-11 inclusive. [82451] [82452] Mr Blunt: The table shows the average number of Mr Blunt: Figures for the number juvenile first time people under the age of 18 held in the secure estate for entrants to the criminal justice system in England and children and young people between 2000-01 and 2010-11. Wales are given in the table. The figures cover the years These data are from the Youth Justice Board (YJB) 2000-01 to 2010-11 and are taken from Table Q7.3 of and refer to Secure Training Centres (STCs), Secure the Criminal Justice Statistics Quarterly Update to March Children’s Homes (SCHs), and YoungOffender Institutions 2011 which can be found at (YOIs). 2000-01 is the earliest date from which data are http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ available that gives information on all secure establishments criminal-justice/criminal-justice-statistics.htm in the youth estate for this age group (10 to 17-year-olds). Figure for years before 2000-01 are not available. The 2010-11 figures are provisional. The final 2010-11 These figures have been drawn from the police’s figures will be presented in the 2010-11 Youth Justice administrative IT system, the police national computer, Statistics publication on 26 January 2012. which, as with any large scale recording system, is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Table 1. Average secure estate population (10 to 17-year-olds) The figures are provisional and subject to change as Number more information is recorded by the police. 2000-01 2,807 Number of first time entrants aged between 10 and 17 to the criminal justice 2001-02 2,801 system1 in England and Wales, 12 months ending March 2001 to 12 months 2002-03 3,029 ending March 2011 2003-04 2,771 12 month period to the end of March Number of offenders 2004-05 2,745 2001 90,180 2005-06 2,830 2002 89,277 2006-07 2,914 2003 83,621 2007-08 2,932 2004 88,635 2008-09 2,881 2005 96,252 2009-10 2,418 2006 107,680 1 2010-11 2,067 2007 110,815 1 These figures are provisional. The final 2010-11 figures will be presented in the 2008 100,444 2010-11 Youth Justice Statistics publication. Notes: 2009 80,314 1. YJB data referring to Secure Training Centres (STCs), Secure Children’s 2010 62,504 Homes (SCHs), and Young Offender Institutions (YOIs). The data does not 2011 45,519 include 18 to 21-year-olds held in YOI separate units for which the YJB do not 1 hold data. Offenders recorded on the police national computer by an English or Welsh 2. Youth custodial data are published on a monthly basis, this is a monthly police force or by the British Transport police operating in England and Wales snapshot of the custodial population (taken on the last Friday of the month or as having received their first conviction, reprimand or warning. first Friday of the following month depending on which is nearer to the actual month end). Each annual figure is calculated as an average of all of the individual months in the year period (i.e. an average of the monthly snapshots) HEALTH due to monthly fluctuation. Fluctuation arises as custodial population is a factor of number of young people sentenced, sentence length, and time spent Ambulance Services: Standards on remand. 3.These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and processing and can be subject to change over time. what assessment he has made of the merits of applying 583W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 584W

A8 ambulance response time targets by (a) primary Paul Burstow: The Children and Young People’s care trust and (b) local authority area. [82069] Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) project has been developed at a national level in partnership Mr Simon Burns: The NHS Operating Framework with young people and professionals to meet the needs provides for central performance management of the of children and young people. The involvement of A8 ambulance response time targets at strategic health children and young people in design of the programme authority level. It is for local commissioners to determine has been co-ordinated through YoungMinds, the national the level of performance management at the primary mental health charity for all children and young people care trust and local authority area. including those with autism. The project aims to transform existing Child and Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS) by adopting what assessment he has made of the merits of those elements of the IAPT programme which will reviewing A8 ambulance response times in England. improve outcomes for children and young people, providing [82071] treatment which is based on best evidence and embedding session-by-session outcome monitoring to ensure treatments Mr Simon Burns: Ambulance trusts are performance are quality driven, outcomes focussed and client informed. managed against the target requiring 75% of category This service transformation will benefit all children, A (immediately life threatening) calls to receive a response young people and their parents (referred to the CAMHS within eight minutes, which is a headline measure in the that are part of the project) including those with autistic NHS Operating Framework. A8 ambulance response spectrum disorders. times data are published monthly. As part of the first phase, the children’s IAPT project The Department is considering changes to strengthen has developed a curriculum and training package to the A8 ambulance response time target. We are looking equip staff to treat a range of emotional disorders, such at the whole system of dealing with care for the most as anxiety and depression, and for behavioural problems seriously ill patients. We will introduce changes once a that commonly occur among children and young people safe approach is agreed; but our priority is to maintain with autistic spectrum disorders. the highest quality care. Barnardo’s: Finance Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to ensure that the setting of Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health ambulance response targets does not adversely affect how much funding Barnardo’s received from his rural areas. [82072] Department in 2010-11; how much he estimates it will receive in 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. Mr Simon Burns: Ambulance trusts are performance [82594] managed against two ambulance response targets, which are headline measures in the NHS Operating Framework. Paul Burstow: The Department can confirm that Ambulance services have to meet these targets for their Barnardo’s did not receive any funding in 2010-11 nor geographical area and it is for individual ambulance does it have any plans for 2011-12. trusts to decide how to configure their work force to best respond to an emergency. In 2010-11 Barnardo’s was a national agent for the Opportunities for Volunteering scheme. In April 2010-11 Clinical quality indicators for the ambulance service it did initially receive a payment of £48,250 but this came into effect from April 2011 and require each payment was returned to the Department as it was not ambulance trust to publish the median time to treatment, utilised. the 95th centile time to treatment and 99th centile time to treatment for immediately life-threatening (Category Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Health Services A) calls. The requirement to publish this data, and in particular the 95th centile and 99th centile time to Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for treatment, will ensure that trusts must demonstrate an Health what assessment his Department has made of excellent service to all patients, whether the incident the adequacy of provision of chronic fatigue specialist occurs in a rural or urban setting. services in East Lancashire. [82400] Autism Paul Burstow: The provision of local health services, including chronic fatigue services, is a matter for local Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for commissioners to determine, in conjunction with local Health (1) whether people with autism will be involved stakeholders and taking into account the healthcare in developing the Children and Young People’s needs of their local communities. Improving Access to Psychological Therapies project; and if he will make a statement; [82483] Dental Services: Inspections (2) what consideration will be given to the needs of people with autism in the Children and Young People’s Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Improving Access to Psychological Therapies project; (1) if he will ensure that inspection of dental practices and if he will make a statement; [82484] by the Care Quality Commission will only be undertaken (3) what consideration he has given to including by inspectors with appropriate dental expertise; [82459] training on adapting talking therapies for people with (2) what plans he has to use the knowledge and autism in the curriculum for the Children and Young expertise of dental reference officers in the inspection People’s Improving Access to Psychological Therapies of dental practices by the Care Quality Commission; project. [82485] [82460] 585W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 586W

(3) what plans he has to use the knowledge and and for the strategic health authorities is however reported expertise of dental practice advisers in the regulation of by the Information Centre for health and social care dental practices. [82461] and is contained in their latest GP Earnings and Expenses 2009-10 final report. Mr Simon Burns: The Care Quality Commission The average England GP salary in 2009-10 is £109,400. (CQC) is responsible for its own operational system and The average GP salary within the East Midlands region the Department is not involved in its inspection procedures. is £115,700. However, we are assured by the CQC that full training on the inspection of dental services is available to all the Health Professions: Qualifications CQC staff and it is confident that its inspectors can effectively assess dentists’ compliance with the registration Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements. Health what assessment he has made of the equivalence The CQCs inspectors have access to specialist advice of qualifications gained in EU member states and outside when required across all the sectors it regulates. We the EU to a certificate of completion of training for understand that there is an intention to increase this employment purposes; and if he will make a statement. specialist provision and that the CQC is considering [82424] utilising dental reference officers for this purpose. The Anne Milton: Doctors must be registered with a licence CQC employs a national advisor on dentists for two to practise with the General Medical Council (GMC) to days a week. practise medicine in the United Kingdom. All international Departmental Communication medical graduates must possess an acceptable primary medical qualification in order to apply for registration with a licence to practise. For European Union doctors, Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the GMC is required to accept the qualifications of pursuant to the answer of 5 September 2011, Official migrants if the member state where the qualifications Report, column 140W,on departmental communication, was obtained is satisfied that they meet the minimum if he will place in the Library a list of each item of required under the Directive on the Recognition of research commissioned by his Department through the Professional Qualifications. Central Office of Information in 2009-10 and the cost to the public purse for each such item. [82230] Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information his Department holds on Mr Simon Burns: A copy of this information as qualification levels assessed for employment purposes requested has been placed in the Library. The figures in the UK as equivalent to a certificate of completion against each project include the Central Office of of training for (a) each EU member state and (b) Information fees. countries outside the EU. [82425]

Diabetes: Young People Anne Milton: The Department does not hold this information. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The General Medical Council (GMC) maintains a (1) what social and psychological support services his list of postgraduate qualifications they accept as providing Department makes available to young adults and sufficient evidence of an overseas doctor’s knowledge adolescents with diabetes; [R] [81958] and skill, for the purpose of full registration with a (2) what assessment his Department has made of the licence to practise. For European Union doctors, the health and social needs experienced by young adults GMC is required to accept the qualifications of migrants and adolescents with diabetes. [R] [81960] if the member state where the qualifications was obtained is satisfied that they meet the minimum required under Paul Burstow: It is for the local national health service the Directive on the Recognition of Professional to commission high-quality and safe diabetes services Qualifications. for all people with diabetes, including social and psychological support services, and services for young Health Services adults and adolescents. They are best placed to assess the needs of their local populations, informed by clinical Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for involvement and leadership. Health what the average waiting time for a referral for (a) physiotherapy and (b) speech therapy was (i) in The Department has not made a formal assessment Mid Sussex constituency, (ii) in the south-east and of the health and social needs experienced by young (iii) nationally in the latest period for which figures are adults and adolescents with diabetes. available. [82442] General Practitioners: Pay Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is currently not collected centrally. The ‘Allied Health Professional Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for (AHP) Referral to Treatment (RTT) Guide’, published Health what the average salary is of a GP in (a) Ashfield in 2010, sets out a framework of rules for clock starts constituency, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) England. and clock stops to measure waiting times for patients [82480] when accessing national health service AHP services Mr Simon Burns: Information on average salaries for including physiotherapy and speech and language therapy. general practitioners (GPs) in both the Ashfield constituency Nationally, AHP RTT data collection and reporting and Nottinghamshire are not available centrally. was due to be mandated from April 2011, however, Information on latest average GP salaries for England as part of the public health spending reviews, the 587W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 588W implementation date for collecting data is being reviewed. (CQC) in several waves between April 2010 and April 2012. In the meantime, it is expected that local national health This phased approach to implementing the new registration service organisations will collect these data locally to system was designed to make the workload of registering help them identify where service improvement is most around 30,000 providers more manageable for the CQC. needed. In April 2011, the registration of providers of primary Work between the Department and the NHS Information dental service providers and independent ambulance Centre is in place to ensure the development and mandate services proved more challenging than had been anticipated of data sets by which the AHP RTT data collected and was not completed by 1 April 2011. In the light of locally can be flowed to a central source for national this, the Department has put in place regulations that reporting. defer the registration of most providers of NHS primary The ‘AlliedHealth Professional Referral to Treatment medical services until 1 April 2013. This delay will Guide’ has been placed in the Library and is available provide the CQC with the opportunity to ensure that its at: systems, tools and processes are refined in the light of www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ the experience of earlier registration rounds. @dh/@en/@ps/documents/digitalasset/dh_115297.pdf King’s Mill Hospital Health Services: Disadvantaged

Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment his Department has made of Health what the average waiting time was for an the effect of his proposals for health reforms on people appointment with a consultant at King’s Mill hospital experiencing social exclusion. [81939] in each of the last five years. [82478]

Mr Simon Burns: The equality analysis for the Health Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not and Social Care Bill assesses the equality impact of the available. Information on the mean and median time reforms set out in the Bill, and considers several factors waited1 in days for an outpatient2 appointment at Sherwood that can contribute to social exclusion. In carrying out Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust3, 2005-06 to this analysis the Department considered the impact in 2009-104 is available in the following table: relation to age; disability; gender reassignment; pregnancy and maternity; race and ethnicity; religion and belief; Mean Median sex; sexual orientation and socio-economic status. 2009-10 30.0 25 The equality analysis can be found on the Department’s 2008-09 29.2 25 website at: 2007-08 28.0 26 www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ 2006-07 33.4 26 PublicationsLegislation/DH_123583 2005-06 43.2 35 Separate equality analyses and equality impact 1 Time waited statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are assessments have been produced for other aspects of not the same as the published waiting list statistics. Waiting times the NHS White Paper ‘Equity and Excellence: Liberating statistics are usually only calculated for first attendances of patients the NHS’, including an initial equality impact assessment referred by general practitioners and dentists, whereas the Time on patient choice published alongside the consultation Waited data here include all referral types. It is unclear whether the data collected has any relevance to subsequent attenders. Analysis of document ‘Greater choice and control’, and an initial the data has revealed high (up to 100%) percentages of zero day waits list of equality opportunities and concerns published for some providers suggesting poor data recording. alongside a summary of the responses received to the 2 It is not possible to specifically select appointments with a consultant, ‘Information Revolution’ consultation. but where the main treating specialty is Nursing (950), Midwifery (560) or Allied Health Professional (960) these have been excluded. An equality impact assessment was also carried out 3 A provider code is a unique code that identifies an organisation on the Public Health White Paper, ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy acting as a health care provider (e.g. NHS trust or primary care trust). People’, published on 30 November 2010. Hospital providers can also include treatment centres (TC). Normally, if data are tabulated by health care provider, the figure for an NHS Health Services: Regulation trust gives the activity of all the sites as one aggregated figure. However, in the case of those with embedded TCs, these data are quoted separately. In these cases, “-X” is appended to the code for the Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health rest of the trust, to remind users that the figures are for all sites of the for what reasons he decided the Care Quality Commission trust excluding the TCs. The quality of TC returns are such that data was ready to take on the regulation of (a) providers of may not be complete. Some NHS trusts have not registered their TC dental services in 2011 and (b) NHS primary medical as a separate site, and it is therefore not possible to identify their activity separately. Data from some independent sector providers, [82458] services in 2012. where the onus for arrangement of dataflows is on the commissioner, may be missing. Care must be taken when using this data as the Mr Simon Burns: The timetable for the registration of counts may be lower than true figures. providers of healthcare and adult social care, including 4 HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the providers of primary dental services and national health figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements service primary medical services, is set out in the Health in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) Regulations and changes in NHS practice. For example, apparent reductions in 2010. These Regulations were approved by Parliament activity may be due to a number of procedures which may now be in March 2010 under the previous Government. undertaken in outpatient settings and so no longer include in admitted patient HES data. Under the terms of the regulations providers of different Source: types of health care and adult social care services were Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The Information Centre for health required to register with the Care Quality Commission and social care. 589W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 590W

Maternity Services central budget bundle. It is for SHAs to determine the level of spending necessary to deliver the required outcomes Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for for the various elements of training and development. Health what information maternity services are required MPET is not ring-fenced. It is the responsibility of to provide to parents about local parenting support SHAs to invest the budget appropriately and determine services. [82732] the correct number of postgraduate medical trainees, in their area, for the work force needed to deliver services Anne Milton: Health professionals support women required by patients. The trainee doctors also contribute and their partners in the transition to parenthood by to service delivery. discussing the postnatal health and social needs of the mother and her baby and by developing an individual The General Medical Council sets the standards for plan of postnatal care to address those needs. the delivery of postgraduate medical education and The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence quality assures the delivery of training against those clinical guideline on postnatal care (published in 2006) standards. Their recommendations are contained in “The and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Trainee Doctor” (2011). This includes recommendations Standards for Maternity Care (published in 2008) state on essential safeguards on any action by trainees that that postnatal care should include provision of information affects the safety and wellbeing of patients. to both mothers and fathers on infant care, parenting The Department has worked in collaboration with skills and accessing local community groups. SHAs to develop a safety and quality assurance process The Department has also recently (October 2011) to ensure that any significant change proposed in the launched ‘Preparing for Birth and Beyond’ pack, an size and shape of the clinical work force has involved online resource, which aims to help the national health clinicians at all levels, maximising on their engagement, service, local authorities and the voluntary sector involved leadership and sign off. Where NHS organisations are in planning or running groups for expectant and new planning or experience changes to their work force, they parents. will need to demonstrate that their systems, processes and governance arrangements are adequate to uphold Medicine: Education the rights of patients covering quality and care of environment, as set out in “Liberating the NHS: Developing Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for the healthcare workforce”. Health whether strategic health authority clusters will be permitted to (a) hold back and (b) top slice any Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for centrally-provided funding for postgraduate medical Health how much funding his Department plans to education (i) in 2011-12 and (ii) in subsequent years. allocate to postgraduate medical education during the [82491] comprehensive spending review period. [82493]

Anne Milton: Postgraduate medical education is funded Anne Milton: Although funding for postgraduate medical through the Multi Professional Education and Training education forms part of the wider multi professional (MPET) budget issued to strategic health authorities education and training (MPET) budget, it is not a (SHAs) as part of the annual national health service separate funding stream. This is in order to provide central budget bundle. It is for SHAs to determine the strategic health authorities (SHAs) with flexibility to level of spending necessary to deliver the required outcomes address local workforce priorities within the national for the various elements of training and development. framework set out in the education and training service MPET is not ring-fenced and it is the responsibility level agreement between SHAs and the Department. of SHAs to invest the budget appropriately. However, In 2011-12, the MPET budget is £4.9 billion. The there is an education and training service level agreement cash budgets for MPET in 2012-13 will be maintained (SLA) between SHAs and the Department, which ensures at the level of this financial year. The level of funding that SHAs are held to account for the funding and for the remainder of the comprehensive spending review quality of the training they provide for healthcare students has not yet been confirmed but will reflect the ongoing and the NHS work force. In 2011-12, the SHAs have requirements of the national health service workforce. forecasted to spend £4.873 billion of the £4.879 billion MPET budget. Muscular Dystrophy “Liberating the NHS: Developing the healthcare workforce” set out proposals for a new system for Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for planning and developing the work force. The consultation Health what progress has been made on establishing a was followed by the Listening Exercise. More detailed managed clinical network for neuromuscular conditions proposals on the new system, across a range of issues in each NHS region; and if he will make a statement. including funding, will be published later this year. [82512] Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: During 2010-11, the 10 regional Specialised Health what assessment he has made of the effect on Commissioning Groups (SCGs) and National Specialised patient safety of levels of funding for postgraduate Commissioning team (NSCT) collaborated to produce medical education during the comprehensive spending a detailed work plan for neuromuscular services. review period. [82492] This neuromuscular work stream is led by East of Anne Milton: Postgraduate medical education is funded England SCG working with the individual SCG/NSCT through the Multi Professional Education and Training neuromuscular leads. In July, a more formal group was (MPET) budget issued to strategic health authorities established and the existing work plan was enlarged to (SHAs) as part of the annual national health service include communications and engagement. 591W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 592W

A workshop to which patients, carers and support support to enable trusts to address their responsibilities organisations have been invited is scheduled for later in relation to the safety and security of their staff and this year. encouraging trusts to work with local police forces to take action against those who are violent or abusive. Neurology: Surgery Where violent incidents do occur, NHS Protect is committed to ensuring that tough action, including all appropriate Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for sanctions, is taken against those who are violent and Health what timetable he has set for the development of aggressive against towards NHS staff. nationally convergent commissioning policies for specialised neurosurgery; who will be responsible for the development NHS: Reorganisation process; and what engagement is planned with clinicians and patients. [82017] Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many requests under the Freedom of Mr Simon Burns: The work on nationally convergent Information Act 2000 his Department has received in commissioning policies for specialised neurosurgery has relation to the Health and Social Care Bill since it was been under way since April 2011 and is planned to be published; and how many such requests have been completed by October 2012. It includes streams of refused in full or in part. [81503] work led by a national transition team for specialised services working with the current Specialised Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Bill Commissioning Groups. The responsibility lies with the had its first reading in the House of Commons on 19 Specialised Services Transition Oversight Group chaired January 2011. by the Commissioning Director of NHS Midlands and East with a directly accountable Clinical Assurance The information is shown in the following table. Group and Patient and Public Engagement Group. Initial freedom of information requests about the Health and Social Extensive, nationally co-ordinated engagement is planned Care Bill since 19 January 2011 with clinicians and users, looking at specific groups of Number of cases services during 2012. Full disclosure 27 NHS: Crimes of Violence Partial disclosure 23 Non-disclosure 3 Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Live cases—as yet unanswered 5 Health what assessment his Department has made of Total 58 the level of assaults on NHS staff in (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011; and if he will make a statement. [81593] Nutrition

Mr Simon Burns: The number of physical assaults Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for against staff reported by national health service bodies Health whether officials of his Department have assessed in England has been collected annually since 2004-05. the legal arguments submitted to it by the Health Food Total figures are in the following table. Manufacturers’ Association in relation to the Nutrition Reported physical assaults against NHS staff and Health Claims Regulation, its interpretation and its Number implementation; and if he will make a statement. [82726] 2008-09 54,758 2009-10 56,718 Anne Milton: Departmental officials have considered 2010-11 57,830 the legal arguments submitted to it by the Health Food Information on the number of reported physical assaults Manufacturers’ Association in relation to the Nutrition against NHS staff for the years 2008-09 and 2009-10, and Health Claims Regulation. can be found in the ‘Tables showing the number of reported physical assaults on NHS staff for 2008-09, Palliative Care broken down by NHS trust/PCT’ and the ‘Table showing the number of reported physical assaults on NHS staff Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for in 2009-10, broken down by NHS trust/PCT’ which Health whether he has any plans to conduct a review of have already been placed in the Library. end-of-life decision-making within the NHS. [82803] Information on the number of reported physical assaults against NHS staff for the year 2010-11, can be found in Paul Burstow: The Department has no plans to conduct the ’Tables showing the number of reported physical a review of end of life decision-making. assaults on NHS staff in 2010-11, broken down by NHS Trust/PCT’ which has been placed in the Library. Prescriptions: Fees and Charges The Government are committed to encouraging NHS organisations to work better with their local police David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for forces to clamp down on anyone who is aggressive and Health what steps he is taking to agree the Doctors abusive to staff. Dispensing Fees Envelope. [81659] Each NHS body has a duty to address the risks to their staff. NHS Protect is the body responsible for Mr Simon Burns: This matter is the subject of on-going leading work to tackle violence against NHS staff. This negotiations between the General Practitioners’ Committee includes the provision of guidance and operational of the British Medical Association and NHS Employers. 593W Written Answers24 NOVEMBER 2011 Written Answers 594W

David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Health bring forward legislative proposals if behaviour change what steps he is taking to allocate the £8.6 million is not successful. [82624] surplus in the dispensing doctors budget in 2010-11. [81660] Anne Milton: In March, we published the “Tobacco Control Plan for England”, which sets out our plans to Mr Simon Burns: Negotiations with the General help drive down smoking rates and reduce the harms Practitioners’ Committee of the British Medical Association from tobacco over the next five years. This plan includes on dispensing doctor fee scales for 2011-12 continue, our commitment to launch a national marketing campaign, including consideration of the underspend that occurred planned for spring 2012, to remind smokers of the risks in 2010-11 against the fee scale budget envelope. of exposing children and adults to second hand smoke Smoking: Motor Vehicles and to encourage them to stop smoking in their homes and cars when children are present. We will evaluate the impact of the campaign on smokers’ behaviour. Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department plans to take to Rather than extending smokefree legislation, we want bring about behaviour change amongst parents people to recognise the risks of second hand smoke and smoking around children in cars; how his Department decide voluntarily to make their cars and homes smokefree. plans to evaluate whether such steps are changing A copy of the “Tobacco Control Plan for England” parents’ behaviour; and whether his Department will has already been placed in the Library.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 24 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 446 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Church Tourism...... 446 continued Civil Partnerships...... 446 Common Agricultural Policy ...... 431 2012 Olympics...... 452 Common Fisheries Policy ...... 435 Christians (Pakistan)...... 450 Dangerous Dogs ...... 432 Church Buildings (Theft) ...... 449 Electronic Training Aids (Cats)...... 436 Food Banks...... 448 Endangered Species ...... 441 St Paul’s Cathedral (Demonstrations) ...... 451 Farm Administration ...... 440 Women and the Episcopacy ...... 450 Food Manufacturing...... 439 Topical Questions ...... 442 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Waste Review ...... 437 AFFAIRS...... 431 Animal Welfare ...... 438 PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 447 Carbon Emissions...... 433 National Audit Office...... 447 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 24 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 30WS TRANSPORT ...... 33WS Housing Market Renewal (Legacy)...... 30WS Dartford-Thurrock River Crossing (Changes) ...... 33WS Strategic Road Network (Review) ...... 34WS HEALTH...... 32WS Abortion (Costs)...... 32WS TREASURY ...... 29WS NHS Operating Framework for 2012-13 ...... 33WS ECOFIN (18 November 2011) ...... 29WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 33WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 34WS Equality and Human Rights Commission UN Convention (Persons with Disabilities)...... 34WS (Annual Report)...... 33WS Work Capability Assessment...... 35WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 24 November 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 478W CABINET OFFICE—continued GPT: Corruption ...... 478W McKinsey and Company ...... 508W Voluntary Sector ...... 509W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 515W Voluntary Work: Young People...... 509W Business: Regulation ...... 515W Businesses: Ex-servicemen...... 516W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 477W Departmental Consultants...... 516W Churches: Community Relations ...... 477W Departmental Written Questions ...... 516W European Union ...... 517W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 511W Higher Education...... 517W Council Tax Benefits...... 511W Higher Education: Regulation ...... 517W Councillors: Leave ...... 511W Higher Education: Students ...... 518W Empty Property ...... 511W Occupational Health: Research...... 519W Empty Property: Retail Trade ...... 512W Office for Fair Access...... 519W Growing Places Fund...... 512W Public Houses ...... 519W Housing: Construction...... 513W Qualifications: Bexley ...... 519W Housing: Finance...... 513W Regional Growth Fund ...... 520W Local Government: Pensions ...... 513W Renewable Energy: Training...... 520W Mayors: Referendums ...... 514W Students: Loans ...... 521W Planning Permission ...... 514W Trade Unions: Training...... 521W Planning Permission: Norfolk...... 514W Social Services: Finance ...... 515W CABINET OFFICE...... 504W Taxpayers’ Alliance...... 515W Adam Werritty...... 505W British Nationals Abroad: EU Countries ...... 506W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 502W Civil Servants: British Nationality ...... 507W Aerials...... 503W Civil Servants: Pensions ...... 507W Horse Racing: Betting...... 503W Community Organisers ...... 504W Martial Arts...... 502W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 542W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Armed Forces Covenant ...... 542W continued Defence Equipment and Support...... 543W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 555W Defence: Procurement...... 543W Housebuilding...... 551W Departmental Lost Property ...... 545W Natural Environment White Paper...... 552W Departmental Pay ...... 546W Rural Broadband ...... 552W Departmental Redundancy ...... 546W Sheep Meat: Prices...... 556W Departmental Reorganisation...... 547W Germany: Military Bases ...... 547W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 556W Libya: Security...... 547W Embassies: Opening Hours ...... 556W Seedcorn Initiative ...... 548W Kurds: Syria...... 558W Syria: Security...... 549W Libya: Asylum...... 558W Terrorism: Chemical and Biological Warfare ...... 549W Lord’s Resistance Army...... 558W Trident ...... 549W Palestine: Peace Negotiations...... 559W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 549W Strategic Shrinkage ...... 559W USA: Military Aircraft ...... 550W World War Two: Military Decorations...... 550W HEALTH...... 582W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 550W Ambulance Services: Standards ...... 582W Autism ...... 583W EDUCATION...... 523W Barnardo’s: Finance...... 584W Academies...... 523W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Health Services ...... 584W Academies: Finance ...... 523W Dental Services: Inspections...... 584W Bell Pottinger Group...... 523W Departmental Communication ...... 585W Children: Disability...... 524W Diabetes: Young People ...... 585W Departmental NDPBs...... 524W General Practitioners: Pay ...... 585W Departmental Private Finance Initiative ...... 525W Health Professions: Qualifications ...... 586W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 525W Health Services ...... 586W Family Intervention Programme ...... 525W Health Services: Disadvantaged ...... 587W Free Schools...... 526W Health Services: Regulation ...... 587W Free Schools: Finance ...... 527W King’s Mill Hospital...... 588W Local Safeguarding Children Boards ...... 527W Maternity Services ...... 589W New Schools Network: Finance...... 527W Medicine: Education...... 589W Offences against Children ...... 528W Muscular Dystrophy ...... 590W Private Finance Initiative: Correspondence...... 528W Neurology: Surgery...... 591W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 529W NHS: Crimes of Violence...... 591W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 529W NHS: Reorganisation...... 592W Schools: Buildings...... 532W Nutrition...... 592W Schools: Fires...... 533W Palliative Care...... 592W Schools: Solar Power...... 534W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 592W Schools: Warrington ...... 534W Smoking: Motor Vehicles...... 593W Training: Citizenship...... 535W Young People: Parents ...... 535W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 478W Animal Experiments ...... 478W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 536W Arrest Warrants ...... 479W Carbon Capture and Storage project...... 536W Asylum ...... 480W Departmental Photographs...... 536W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 481W Double Glazing...... 536W Civil Disorder ...... 481W Electricity Generation...... 536W Departmental Photographs...... 481W Energy: Business ...... 537W Departmental Procurement...... 482W Energy: Meters...... 538W Entry Clearances...... 482W Energy: Prices ...... 538W Entry Clearances: Domestic Service...... 482W Environment Protection: Taxation ...... 539W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 483W Government Departments: Solar Power...... 540W Forensic Science Service...... 483W Heating ...... 540W Identity and Passport Service: Vacancies...... 483W International Physical Protection Advisory Illegal Immigrants: Frontex ...... 484W Service ...... 540W Immigration...... 484W Nuclear Installations: Safety ...... 541W Independent Police Complaints Commission...... 484W Nuclear Power: Foreign Investment in UK ...... 541W Members: Correspondence ...... 485W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 542W National Policing Improvement Agency...... 485W Police Commissioners ...... 485W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL UK Border Agency: Bullying...... 485W AFFAIRS...... 550W UK Border Agency: Resignations ...... 485W Agricultural Land Tribunals ...... 552W Agriculture...... 553W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 502W Agriculture: Industrial Health and Safety ...... 553W Ministers’ Private Offices: Expenditure ...... 502W Animal Welfare ...... 551W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 554W JUSTICE...... 570W Farm Administration ...... 551W Children: Protection...... 570W Flood Prevention ...... 554W Community Orders ...... 570W Food Security...... 550W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 570W Food Supply...... 555W Employment and Support Allowance: Appeals...... 572W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TRANSPORT—continued European Court of Human Rights ...... 573W Coastguard Service: Finance...... 488W Human Rights ...... 573W Driving Tests: Bury ...... 488W Insolvency...... 574W Fuels: EU Action ...... 488W Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Heathrow Airport ...... 488W Offenders Bill...... 574W Liverpool Port...... 489W Misconduct in Public Office: Prosecutions...... 577W Railways...... 489W Prison Accommodation ...... 578W Railways: Fares ...... 489W Prisoners: Pregnant Women ...... 578W Rescue Services: Manpower ...... 489W Prisons: Mother and Baby Units...... 579W Rescue Services: South Wales...... 491W Prosecutions: Metals ...... 580W Road Traffic...... 492W Supreme Court: Public Appointments ...... 579W Roads: Fees and Charges ...... 493W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 580W Roads: Housing ...... 493W Youth Custody...... 581W Roads: Repairs and Maintenance...... 493W Youth Justice...... 582W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 494W Rolling Stock ...... 495W LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 477W Shipping: Safety...... 495W Departmental Official Photographs...... 477W Shipping: Security...... 495W Public Reading Stage ...... 477W Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock ...... 495W Tugboats ...... 496W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 497W Bombings: Omagh ...... 497W TREASURY ...... 501W Broadband ...... 497W Air Passenger Duty...... 501W Maghaberry Prison: Standards ...... 498W Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 501W Patrick Finucane ...... 498W Tax Collection...... 501W Politics and Government...... 499W Universal Credit: Disability...... 502W Public Finance ...... 499W WALES...... 496W Social Security Benefits...... 500W Airports: Weather ...... 496W Terrorism ...... 500W Social Services: Cross Border Cooperation ...... 497W PRIME MINISTER ...... 503W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 559W Departmental Photographs...... 503W Crisis Loans ...... 559W Northern Ireland Government...... 504W Disability Living Allowance...... 560W Supermarkets ...... 504W Disability: Transport...... 561W Housing Benefit ...... 561W TRANSPORT ...... 486W Jobcentre Plus: Argyll and Brute...... 562W Air Passenger Duty ...... 486W Pensions...... 562W Air Travel Organisers’ Licence...... 486W Poverty: Children ...... 563W Aviation ...... 486W Social Security Benefits...... 565W Aviation: Business...... 487W Welfare Reform Bill ...... 567W Aviation: Regulation ...... 487W Welfare Reform: Chronic Pain ...... 568W Bus Services: Greater Manchester...... 487W Work Capability Assessment...... 568W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 24 November 2011

New Writ [Col. 431]

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 431] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Church Commissioners Public Accounts Commission

Business of the House [Col. 453] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Backbench Business [Un-allotted day] [Col. 471] BAE Systems [Col. 472] Motion—(Mr David Davis)—agreed to Manufacturing [Col. 510] Motion—(Guy Opperman)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 562]

Local Pharmacies [Col. 563] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Extradition [Col. 147WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 29WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 477W] [see index inside back page]