https://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2009/07/05/why-i-hate-men-part-1-and- then-it-hit-me/ Why I Hate Men Part 1: I Admit It 5JUL That’s right, I’m admitting it. Tell all your MRA buddies that they’ve been vindicated, call Rush Limbaugh, make sure to let all the other feminists know I’m blowing their cover for them. Men are obnoxious, arrogant, entitled, violent, stinky, crass, loudmouthed, stupid, craven, braggadocios, thoughtless, unreflective, abusive, selfish, lowbrow, willfully ignorant assholes. Well, most of them. You see, I don’t hate all men, just almost all of them; some of my best friends are men (snarf snarf). There are three or four that I love and consider to be fundamentally decent human beings, there are about seven that are big enough “faggots” that I like hanging out with them, and there are maybe ten that, though I’m sure they have no idea what “male privilege” means, I would equivocate before sending to a re-education camp if given the chance (if the camp conditions were harsh; if it was like summer camp I’d snap up the opportunity to send them for a week or two of re-humanization training and craft lessons). But back to that bit about me hating men. I’m tired, tired, tired of people expecting me to defend myself against the accusation that I just hate men. It’s bullshit deluxe, and it’s the most transparent derailing tactic there is. I know that I’m raising spooky specters when I hint (I’m really subtle, right?) that there might be something wrong with male supremacy, with gender roles, with men violently abusing women, with men treating women like subhuman sex objects, with men being stupid violent alpha-male dicks towards each other, but it isn’t my job to reassure men that I still love all of them and give a shit what they think just because they’re uncomfortable confronting the possibility of the loss of a bit of their privilege. And besides all of that, why shouldn’t I hate men? Men, being the default humans, get to decide how they want to act and how to define humanity and masculinity with fewer constrictions than women face. What they’ve opted to go with is pretty abysmal, and I don’t have to pretend to like it. I can already hear the whiny voice of some MRA saying, “Then why can’t I hate women? They choose to act as they do!” Women have to deal with enforced femininity, and while a lot of the behaviors femininity entails do indeed suck, they aren’t chosen as freely as men’s behaviors are. And now I hear the whiny voice of some dude who doesn’t adhere to the NFL Masculinity Guidelines claiming that he has to suffer the opprobrium and violence of those who do. Well, duh. But again, it’s men who are the problem, and it’s men who are responsible for men’s behavior. Oh, shit, here comes that MRA again, claiming that women are gold digging sluts who won’t date men who aren’t rich. Who created the ideological world system in which a man’s worth is judged by his material possessions and in which wealth supersedes decency as the chief indicator of a man’s value? Pretty sure that was men (unless you want to try to tell me that women have been running the world and doing all of the important philosophizing and ideological treatise writing for the last few millennia). I win. Men are assholes. It’s time we admitted it. And hence I bring you my new series on why I hate men. What brought about the sudden urge to admit to the public that I hate men was a few hours spent waiting at the Delta terminal of La Guardia in the middle of the afternoon on a weekday. In case you aren’t aware, that particular terminal tends to be awash in suits at that time of day, and what is more representative of American middle-class maledom than your average suit hanging around waiting for a flight home from New York to Charlotte? I was already in a heinous mood when I arrived, having thought I was late and would miss my flight, then arriving and hearing it’d been delayed for like four hours, so I was in no state to suffer listening to the kinds of conversations these dudes have and to witness their bizarre masculinity rituals. I sat down to wait for my flight and to attempt to read some terrifyingly boring book for one of my classes and was immediately enraged by the conversation going on to my left. A woman was sitting primly with her knees crossed and looking bored as her male companion sprawled out over three seats with his legs blocking the walkway between himself and the seats across from him (which he’d commandeered as his own personal luggage storage space) and talked incredibly loudly on his iPhone. He was a big, arrogant simian with a giant head, that shiny look that men who shave constantly seem to have, and a permanent smirk. I immediately wished he would have a premature stroke as I listened to him talk about the meeting he’d just left. He machine-gunned whoever was on the other end with the finer points of his performance at the meeting — at which he’d apparently showed everyone who was really the boss — before calling one of the other meeting attendees a “pussy.” His female companion finally got tired of being ignored and got up, saying, “I’m going to get some magazines.” And he replied, without looking at her, “Get me Sports Illustrated or Sports. Anything, I don’t care, as long as it’s sports,” and then returned to his conversation. No offer to pay for these magazines, no hint that he had grasped the fact that he was behaving like an unfathomable prick, nothing. Unbelievable. This same asshole was in line behind me when I got on my flight. He sat down two rows behind my seat and continued his phone conversation, which at this point had turned to the topic of some recent NFL draft. He constantly referred to whatever team he was talking about as “us” and “we” and was apparently thrilled that “we” had scored this particular player. He affected his most derisive voice and said, “Pshhh. Yeah. I’d like to see Dallas try to fuck with us now. They’re going to get dominated.” Mind you, this was after he’d carried on the same loud conversation all the way down the aisle, bumping into everyone in sight as he obliviously made his way to his seat. And it went on for so long that the flight attendant had to tell him three times to turn his phone off so we could get the fuck on the road (in the sky, whatever). Now, I know this is a fairly egregious example, but it’s not as if it’s not representative of the way the average male American behaves, and I could give you several milder examples of similar behavior that I witnessed on the same day. The airport terminal was a cacophony of affectedly gruff male voices talking about sports and business, and the “masculinity” of the whole thing was sickening. And there were very, very few women present to dilute the cesspool of aftershave and arrogance. So, my foul mood and my unwilling captivity in the same room and plane with a bunch of suits caused me to come to the realization that the accusations my many MRA readers have leveled at me have some merit. I really do hate most men, because I hate what masculinity and maleness mean and the kinds of behaviors they produce. I’ll be getting into the details of what that all means in future posts. To be continued… Related How to End Rape: Deuce's LawIn "General Politics" Calculating risk: Should we avoid men?In "General Politics" Where are the sex-positive dudes at? (An invitation)In "Entertainment" * COMMENTS1,306 Comments * CATEGORIESGirls Are Pink, Boys Are Blue ? Nine Deuce’s pants on fire, also hanging from a telephone wire. Please watch this. ? 1,306 Responses to “Why I Hate Men Part 1: I Admit It” 1. berrybladeJuly 6, 2009 at 3:56 AM # Oh. Oh yes, I am so keen for this. After hearing a bunch of fifteen year old boys on the train the other day, talking about their girlfriends sexuality/orgasms as if they were some cheap party trick and you know, not actually a sharing of intimacy or bonding or signs of human pleasure (unlike their ejaculate) anything like that I’m quite happy to admit that the huMAN race is fucking doomed. REPLY o Fed UpApril 4, 2013 at 5:29 PM # This morning I went to. A middle-aged, white male was on his phone the entire time he was setting up his super large area that he held for himself for class. Everyone was trying to relax, mediate for the new few minutes before the class start and we all had to hear about his 401k and stock options. I finally had enough and told him to put the phone away–in a not so nice manner. He did but not without looking pissed off at me. Someone else in the class thanked me. During class same guy was growling at every pose. If the phone call was soo damm important then don’t come to yoga! REPLY * MonicaApril 20, 2014 at 7:01 PM # I never thought I would find myself seeking out any forum where men hatred was the topic, let alone commenting on it…. I want to say this just snook up on me, but in all honesty it hasn’t…… my life has been a tapestry of one stitch at a time, where men have woven their way into the fabric of my life and inch by inch eroded it away. I came to the table trusting, believing in the capacity of man to love and nurture, and respect as equally as a woman can, I no longer hold this an innate truth… I now know differently. I do not trust men… period. They have taught me not to, they have groomed me not to…. they have shown that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior… and with this awareness now…. I have come to realize and accept †hat I hate men. I am not a lesbian, I love my female friends but not in any sexual way…. I have no desire to ever have sex w/a man again…. for the past 10 + yrs I have not been attracted or inclined to any physical attraction to a man, for underlying that need, comes foremost trust, and no man is trust worthy…. it isn’t in their DNA to be trust worthy…. men are incapable of truth, and their selfishness knows no bounds…. REPLY * LeilaJaneJuly 17, 2014 at 5:48 PM # Same here. A hundred percent feel the same. Bit by bit, my faith in humanity and the male sex has disintegrated to nothing. And unfortunately the faith that was once there left a bitter hole anger quickly filled. I cannot express so fully how much I loathe disgusting men. Everytime I look at a man or see a man I think about what disgusting things he probably does or thinks and how the world would be better without 99% of them. REPLY * MelJuly 19, 2014 at 9:46 PM # Men are hurtful, manipulative, and have no sense of feeling. In their twisted heads, a woman is a stone which is unable to be broken, therefore they do whatever they please. They leave us with scars but have no intention of stitching them closed. From the beginning of my life I have had horrible experiences with men, so the sexism was already beginning to develop. In high school, I started getting bullied by both genders-predominately men. After switching schools the bullying stopped, but I fell in love twice, both instances ended in being left for another woman and having aforementioned woman flaunted before my eyes. I also met a boy online, who I thought was wonderful.Sadly, he showed me his true colors one night at his apartment, where he began reciting his ex-girlfriend’s journal entires to me, playing me songs that reminded him of her, detailing their sex life, driving me past her home, forcing me to type their anniversary date into his phone, Since this relationship, I have become convinced that all men are ex- obsessed morons with no intention of moving on or loving me. They are child molesting perverts, they are abusive idiots. I hate men, I hate men, I will always hate men. GIRL POWER REPLY * ParkerSeptember 25, 2014 at 7:50 PM # I’m sorry you dealt with that. I will tell you not all men are like that and from what you’re explaining the guy you were dating was mentally ill. If a woman or man does something like what you are explaining, it is WRONG. Why is what men do so much worse than what females do? I see many females that do the same of what you’re describing and even worse, what makes them better? Why don’t we focus our anger on the bad people of both male and female and not just one gender because discriminating against a entire gender because of the few men you met out of the billions and billions of people on this planet, is not a good or even to the slightest sense logical. Hopefully this is not taken as hate but I fear since I am communicated to the extreme feminist it will be, but all I push for is equality not superiority. REPLY * Alex RayneJuly 13, 2015 at 7:14 PM # You are right. They look at kiddie porn. they drive you past their ex wife house. They talk about ex girlfriends as if that turns you on. Then when given the opportunity to perform, they crash. Crappy awful lovers. the percentage of men who are good lovers is about .05 out of 100. They think in their small minds they are some big jock. Some big male loverboy. No. They suck. The sex with them is lame. Hopeless losers the lot of them. Good riddance. REPLY o IncognitoJune 11, 2013 at 1:01 AM # I so agree;;;; I can report two experience i had that would be examples of the same crap : I wos on the metro one day and two teenage young boys were speaking in the following terms regarding one of their girlfriend : one who was going way for the weekend told the other that he should try his girlfriend because she was such a “bon coup” (i.e; real good at it you know). The other one is about another teenage boy who was telling me (and I am 60) that is was only fair that men had several women because you know dudes are entitled to have all the sex they want with as many partners they wish. I hope one day women just steer clear of these B…. ards ….. No wonder, the world is so bad;… REPLY 2. Shaun HJuly 6, 2009 at 5:27 AM # I think it would be awesome if women would just run the world. With no help from men of course. I’m beyond sick of hearing about it. I know you think you would do a better job. I’m not convinced, but I really don’t care, I’m 40 and have no kids so the effect on me will be minimal. Good luck. Shaun REPLY o Nine DeuceJuly 6, 2009 at 5:43 AM # Uh, OK. REPLY * AileenWuornosJuly 6, 2009 at 5:45 AM # haha, what the actual fuck? REPLY * JoJuly 31, 2009 at 12:02 PM # Passive-aggressive sarcastic apathetic MRA troll FTW! (Or, as AileenWuornos so aptly put it, haha wtf?) REPLY o MistyAugust 14, 2009 at 4:12 AM # jackass! REPLY * BethOctober 19, 2009 at 8:21 AM # OKAY. You know, i just don’t understand why men and women have to be as different as they are. I understand being different but for motherfucking sakes! I have been off and on with the love of my life for 4 years.. as turbulent, difficult, strange and confusing as it has been.. there are things he does that I end up blaming myself for! WHY? I am the type of female that doesn’t put up with ANY male shit what so ever but since I am in love with this guy really, I find myself making excuses for him.. its my fault.. its things I did before, so I’m paying for it now blah blah blah. Where does this end? Where does this go? I have never been so confused in my life, and I have no-one to relate to, all my friends have never had a love like I have with my guy. I want to make it work but, for one, he’s a free spirit and I’m beginning to think theres a part of him that is severely detached from me which drives me absolutely up the wall to no end! But then again, in true love, is there supposed to be a part of them you don’t know??? Ahh fuck, I don’t know, I’m in dire need of some kind of feedback. He treats me like a queen, he really does, yet I get so insanely jealous when we break up or are having an open relationship.. it just consumes me. He like I think alot of men, doesn’t tell me how he feels when he’s upset, he just holds it in or kind of tells me but not to the extent he wants to. WHY??? Why can’t men just say how they feel like we do?? They fucking bottle it up, and it makes US feel like they don’t give a fuuck, we get fucking pissed off, then before you know it we’re fighting about shit we weren’t even mad about in the beginning!!!!! Ahh.. advice? REPLY * JamesOctober 20, 2009 at 1:51 AM # Get him drunk. REPLY * maryJanuary 31, 2014 at 7:30 AM # This is for Beth from 2009. I would like to tell you that I was mixed up with a guy like yours. The relationship went on for 15 years but II finally had the strength to end it and flat move away. He finally pissed me off so bad that it was truly over. Right now I’m happily single and live for myself , my 2 daughters ( had no boys)(and grandchildren (was blessed with only girls.) Yes I;m much older now, wiser, and don;t have to tell anyone I hate men…still do…but its very clear from my non involvement . REPLY o terryAugust 5, 2013 at 11:19 PM # Shut up and go away. REPLY 3. xxradicalfeministxxJuly 6, 2009 at 5:53 AM # Hey, great work. I just got a blog today and your blog was the first thign that came up when I looked up radical feminism. Your post was beautiful and being a fellow man hater, I agree with everything you say. However, you using the word motherfucker troubled me a little. Why is here a need to degrade women and call them names? By calling men motherfuckers, you are not cussing the men, but their mothers. Shouldn’t father fucker be more appropriate? REPLY o Nine DeuceJuly 6, 2009 at 6:06 AM # I use that word not in a literal sense but colloquially. I feel like it’s lost the connection with its literal meaning, though I do see what you’re saying. REPLY * ismeJuly 7, 2009 at 2:55 PM # “I feel like it’s lost the connection with its literal meaning,” Oh…can o’ worms there. More or less the same argument is used when calling something “gay” as an insult. Or, for that matter calling someone a “pussy” or saying he (only really applies to men) has one. Mind you, having sex with your own mother, in its literal meaning, is something abhorrent and wrong, while society has to pretend not to feel that way about homosexuals or vaginas. REPLY * JoJuly 31, 2009 at 12:05 PM # But wouldn’t “motherfucker” be a statement of how awful the person is, and not their mother? I can’t hear any complicity in that word on the part of the mother — in my mind it’s the same as “mother-raper”. (This conversation actually got me thinking about this; oh Maude, the language geekery!) REPLY * NanellaAugust 1, 2009 at 6:03 PM # Precisely. Literally interpreted, it means “person who rapes mothers”. It’s telling that being called a mofo is a fraternal bonding term in gangsta culture. REPLY * JamesAugust 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM # …Only if you are under the misconception that “fuck” means “rape”, not “have sex with”. REPLY * NanellaAugust 6, 2009 at 6:03 AM # Well, hon, when I say, “Fuck you!”, I’m not wishing you a happy hump session with the person of your choosing. “Fuck” takes on more sinister connotations when used as an expletive. Your response did inspire me to delve into the etymological origins of “motherfucker”, which, according to some sources, may be literally interpreted as “a person who has incestuous relations with their mother”. I still say the most sensible interpretation is “mother raper”, but whatevs. REPLY * BecstarAugust 7, 2009 at 11:48 PM # Well given that fuck is a violent word and sex with violence is rape, yes, fuck does mean rape. Unless of course you’re still trying to convince yourself that its acceptable to be violent towards women. REPLY * ismeAugust 9, 2009 at 12:16 PM # Fuck is an inherently violent word? It often is used that way yes, but not exclusively, surely. REPLY * BecstarAugust 10, 2009 at 12:15 AM # I think so, absolutely. Anytime it is used outside of a sexual context it is used in a violent way. Then, of course, when it moves to sex people try to claim that it isn’t violent anymore (just as they like to claim that BDSM isn’t violent) but its impossible to remove the engrained violence in such a word. It’s not possible to fuck someone you see as an equal, which is why it usually refers to women being fucked. REPLY * JamesAugust 10, 2009 at 1:32 AM # Aren’t you forgetting the gays? They fuck each other all the time. Why can’t I fuck a woman if I’m allowed to fuck a man? REPLY * BecstarAugust 10, 2009 at 8:18 AM # The issue of sex between gay men is more than I can explain to a misogynist in a short comment. Like berryblade said, read “Intercourse” and then go and read about how masculinity effects men’s views on sex (with men or women). You don’t have any right to treat anyone as inferior or as sex objects which you are doing if you refer to sex as fucking. If you are the kind of person who thinks it is acceptable to “fuck” women then why on earth are you on a radfem blog? Did you think you could impress us all by pretending to be a ‘feminist’ male? Pity for you that no one here is stupid enough to fall for that crap. As long as you are not willing to check your male privilege and as long as you think “fucking” women is acceptable you are not going to get the praise you are so obviously after. * berrybladeAugust 10, 2009 at 6:02 AM # having just finished INTERCOURSE i can see how relevant this point is. sadly/however the word fuck is fairly embedded in my vocabulary. i think james should go read that book too just quietly. REPLY * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 8:03 PM # I must agree; the word fuck is embedded in the vocabulary of many and has a different meaning for each intent in which i is delivered. It’s a happy verb, or an angry adverb, etc. Keep your listening ears on! * ismeAugust 10, 2009 at 9:07 AM # I don’t know about that. It seems to me that it only has that negative connotation because sex is inherently dirty, and we should all feel ashamed for our wicked thoughts, especially the women. There isn’t (at least in english) a polite verb referring to the sexual act because of this. Though, it could just be that I don’t live where you live, and the word is used slightly differently around here. REPLY * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 11:58 PM # Fuck is an iconic English word. In its canonical transitive verb form, it simply refers to the act of sexual intercourse. By extension it may be used to profanely or negatively characterize anything that can be dismissed, disdained, defiled, or destroyed, and it is due to the convergence of these two weighty concepts (sex and destruction) that the term can carry such overloaded emphasis, although it is frequently used as a mere intensifier. “Fuck” can be used as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, pronoun, or interjection and can logically be used as virtually any word in a sentence (e.g. “Fuck the fucking fuckers”). It hence has various metaphorical meanings. The verb “to be fucked” can mean “to be cheated” (e.g. “I got fucked by a scam artist”). As a noun “a fuck” or “a fucker” may describe a contemptible person. “A fuck” may mean an act of copulation. As a verb, the word can be used as an interjection, and its participle is sometimes used as a strong emphatic. The verb to fuck may be used transitively or intransitively, and it appears in compounds, including fuck off, fuck up, and fuck with. In less explicit usages (but still regarded as vulgar), fuck or fuck with can mean to mess around, or to deal with unfairly or harshly. In a phrase such as “don’t give a fuck”, the word is the equivalent of “damn”, in the sense of something having little value. In “what the fuck”, it serves merely as an intensive. REPLY * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 6:39 PM # Fuck is not used exclusively with violent intent. Example: I absolutely adore a good fuck when I’m feeling overly excited in a sexual manner. I just want hard core sex, with little thought regarding personal emotions between myself and my partner. See? Isn’t that a nice way of using the word, Fuck? :-) REPLY * JamesAugust 16, 2009 at 7:26 PM # Whatever turns you on, Teresa. REPLY * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 7:57 PM # Hey! I was only providing an example for when the “F” word is not delivered with violent intentions behind the use of the word. I thought it was a good example, as opposed to being condescending. REPLY * JamesAugust 16, 2009 at 11:18 PM # Hah, my mistake, sorry. The internet is so saturated with snark I’ve started to see it everywhere, I suppose. I agree with you. REPLY * BecstarAugust 16, 2009 at 10:57 PM # Actually, no, it’s not a nice way of using the word. All it means is that you have acquired it in order to objectify your partner. You’re just getting in first so that you can objectify someone before they are able to objectify you. That’s not “nice” it’s either self-preservation or ruthlessness displayed through violence. REPLY * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 11:38 PM # Here’s what I think… Sexual objectification is the objectification of a person, which occurs when a person is seen as a sexual object when their sexual attributes and physical attractiveness are separated from the rest of their personality and existence as an individual, and reduced to instruments of pleasure for another person. Such as when partners are role playing and wearing Super Hero costumes which lead to intense Super Hero sex totally devoid of emotion, but every bit as enjoyable as when you are enjoying the usual mind body connection associated with “love making”. The concept of sexual objectification and, in particular, the objectification of women, is an important idea in feminist theory and psychological theories derived from feminism. I believe there are many feminists who regard sexual objectification as objectionable with regards to the inequality of women. There are also those who have argued that sexual freedom for women has led to an increase of the sexual objectification of men. Personally, I think this is more of a sexual philosphy discussion and even a sexual ethics which would be a great topic for further discussion and debate. Just not in this particular discussion as it is not “exactly” what the topic of focus regards. I will continue to wear my Wonder Woman costume and enjoy the complete objectification of my partner who will be wearing his Batman costume. TO THE BATCAVE! REPLY * Big Mobe (@Big_Mobe)August 9, 2013 at 6:51 PM # It is unacceptable to be violent towards anyone unless that someone posses an immediate threat to your well being. REPLY o MistyAugust 14, 2009 at 4:15 AM # ok we’re getting away from the real important issue here…. that all men suck butt!! they are horrible beings who deserve to be hated!! REPLY * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 8:04 PM # Yes…..you are correct, Misty. Apologies. Men suck. REPLY o MeJune 10, 2015 at 2:11 AM # This is ridiculous REPLY 4. LaurelJuly 6, 2009 at 10:07 AM # I believe it was Twisty who once typed, “93.7% of 21st century feminist time is wasted reassuring people that feminists don’t hate men.” Aiport Man an egregious example? Please. That guy was a minor annoyance. He was a common, everyday, run-of–the-mill example–which is exactly what makes living in a man’s world so maddening: the everydayness of it all. And, Ladies, you will notice that we have gained Shaun’s permission to take over the world. I know that’s all I was waiting for before I charge into battle yelling “ALL the money and all of the pussy!” REPLY o Shaun HJuly 7, 2009 at 9:05 PM # Glad to be of service. REPLY 5. SargassoSeaJuly 6, 2009 at 10:38 AM # Thanks, 9-2 for calling it like it is. And to the dudes who complain that they are crushed under the patriarchal boot-heel I say, they’re YOUR kind – take it up with THEM. As for ‘motherfucker’: only a dude would feel privileged/power deranged enough to fuck his mother. That’s the way I see it and that’s the way I use it. A lot. REPLY 6. syndicalist702July 6, 2009 at 12:44 PM # You know, I don’t care for men a whole helluva lot myself. I mean, there are certain ones (like grandpa) for whom I have a lot of respect, but that’s about it. REPLY 7. bonobobabeJuly 6, 2009 at 2:13 PM # Yes! Let the man-hating begin! Men on flights–biggest pains in the ass. They try to nudge in front of you in line, they try to dominate the arm rest, and they are generally assholes. On one of my flights, I got to my seat and noticed that my rowmates were all women. Yes! That leg of my flight was the best one. REPLY o TeresaAugust 17, 2009 at 1:48 AM # Go Fembots! Does anyone remember the Fembots? REPLY 8. Undercover PunkJuly 6, 2009 at 6:12 PM # WELCOME TO MY WORLD!! In light of the undeniable historical persistence and severity with which men have oppressed and abused women (see, for example, statistics on rape and single motherhood; see also the laws and rules of evidence on “spousal rape”), the exceptionalism of a few males is hardly sufficient justification for remaining loyal to the entire gender. In fact, it would be IRRATIONAL for me, as a woman, to love men in general. It would be IRRATIONAL of me not to fear their unpredictable violence. It would be irrational of me not to separate myself from men’s continuous assault of unapologetic attempts to dominate everything feminine. 92, TELL IT!!!! REPLY o Grace MargaretAugust 10, 2009 at 3:36 AM # The situation women have to face is that men are socialized (by other men) to despise women in the same way that white supremacists despise black people. Imagine if white supremacist were sexually attracted to black people. What a complete mess that would be. But it is a reality for us. We are supposed to have intimate relationships and raise children with people who see us as the “n” word, totally subhuman, dirty and contemptible. REPLY 9. buttersisonlymynameJuly 6, 2009 at 6:46 PM # Have you ever been paintballing? It’s much worse; but highly amusing. I’ll be honest with you, the way you feel about men is the way I’m tempted to feel about white people, especially white men. I don’t want to say it because it sounds reverse racist, and I know all white people aren’t like this, but since you described the behaviour of privileged and arrogant men, I thought I might as well join in with something similar. There is also another kind of privilege that intersects with white and male privilege, but that people rarely talk about: extravertist privilege. It sounds trivial since it’s not on the agenda (possibly because the agenda is set by extraverts), but the amount of bullying, ignoring, rudeness, stares and condascension I’ve faced due to my ‘shyness’ and aspie-like tendencies is far worse than all the racism and sexism I’ve faced put together. And your story illustrates this bigotry even further. REPLY o progressive recessJuly 7, 2009 at 1:11 AM # I sometimes feel that way about white folk too. REPLY o ismeJuly 7, 2009 at 3:06 PM # “I’ll be honest with you, the way you feel about men is the way I’m tempted to feel about white people, especially white men. I don’t want to say it because it sounds reverse racist, and I know all white people aren’t like this, but since you described the behaviour of privileged and arrogant men, I thought I might as well join in with something similar.” I thought this might come up. I agree with you. White people have a massive amount of privilege, and they run the world…in a different way that the patriarchies do, but still. I think it’s fair for people to hate white people as much as men. Likewise, anyone whom is a member of an organised religion of any size. They also run the world, overlapping strongly with the patriarchies. I think it’s fair to hate them. I’d also add Americans to that list, except that everyone hates them already ;) REPLY o RachaelJuly 8, 2009 at 7:55 AM # Your point about extravertism is an interesting one. I’ve never thought about it before. As someone who’s very open and talkative with people, I should try to be more careful and pick up on whether or not they’re really interested in talking to me. Thanks for this. REPLY o KayJuly 12, 2009 at 1:39 AM # Sounds ‘almost racist’ – snort. REPLY o New_HereJuly 17, 2009 at 3:22 PM # Butters, I know what you mean about extrovert privilege. I’ve always been extremely shy. Most extroverts act as if we introverts don’t exist; they don’t even see us. Or they act like there’s something deeply wrong with us. Most extroverts are completely oblivious to introverts, let alone the fact we deserve to be treated like equals. REPLY o KLMCJuly 19, 2009 at 9:50 PM # Progressive recess, I agree with you completely. I’m white but realize that no one in this world is more priveleged than the white american male…this country can be racist but it’s wayyy more sexist. REPLY o Grace MargaretAugust 11, 2009 at 3:51 AM # I’ve been extremely shy my whole life, and yes, people treat you like total crap. I was not as aware of sexism growing up because I was treated inferior all the time and didn’t connect it to my gender at all. People treat shyness like it’s something that needs to be cured, that everyone must be an extrovert or there is something wrong with you. Also it is seen as a sign of being weak, and weakness is severely punished in a patriarchal society. REPLY 10. karinovaJuly 6, 2009 at 9:05 PM # The you-just-hate-men attack is so amateur hour. Frankly, it just proves so many of your points. I’d argue that it’s a combination of penis worship, fundamental misogyny and its kissing cousin, homophobia: the whole idea is that you’ll recoil in horror at being described that way, because that’s not a womanly way to feel, because EVERYBODY LOVES DICK, no matter what comes along with it. Only lesbians hate men, and you’re not a lesbian are you?? You’re a real woman, right? So of course you don’t want anyone to think you don’t worship at the altar of the Church of XY, right?! You’re supposed to run away screaming, “Ack, implied lesbianism– get it off me!!!” (Or perhaps, “Let me prove to you just how much I love men, you irresistible and intellectually superior stud”?) Meanwhile, it’s like, what if you do hate men? How does that invalidate your points (which is to say, how does that change reality)? Does the revelation of your supposed man-hate mean that women are suddenly earning the same as men? Or that porn is not a mostly male- driven pursuit that is harmful to all involved? That women and men aren’t cutting up their bodies etc. to please the insane demands of men? That women are assumed to be fair game for gropings and so on, simply by dint of being outdoors? Give me a fucking break. Bullshit Deluxe™ pour homme… the most indulgent bullshit available. By Davidoff. REPLY o Nine DeuceJuly 6, 2009 at 10:18 PM # This comment rules. REPLY * karinovaJuly 6, 2009 at 11:09 PM # Thanks. Something about this post just made me SNAP. I came back with another comment. It’s pending. Please feel free to fix my tags– sometimes I mess them up when I’m in a blind rage. Either that, or the WordPress tryckfelsnissen (typo elves) are after me. REPLY * MarianneJuly 22, 2009 at 8:29 AM # Obviously “Karinova” has never been the target of domestic abuse, rape, being paid .75 while a male coworker doing less work gets paid 1.00, or sexually harassed. “Everybody loves dick” does not make a woman love men, it simply means she likes to go to the store and buy a dildo to please herself. We really don’t need men, just sperm bank ’em and toss. REPLY * Orlando CJuly 23, 2009 at 12:07 AM # Uhhmm. Marianne, either you are misreading the sarcasm in Karinova’s post, or your own sarcasm is layers too deep for me to understand. Gee, sarcasm. Helping folks communicate…. REPLY o Rachelle KebailiMarch 8, 2015 at 2:44 PM # Hahahaha!!!! Fucking Brilliant! REPLY 11. karinovaJuly 6, 2009 at 10:59 PM # Oh, and lest I seem obtuse: Obviously, the other reason you’re supposed to run screaming at the you- just-hate-men accusation is because you’re being lumped in with all the other indiscriminate, irrational haterists (racists et al). This is a distortion of hate that really pisses me off. Basically, it implies that there’s no good reason for any woman who’s not actively being gang raped to hate men. Hating a group just because of who they are, without regard to (indeed, despite) how they act, is ism and is foul. However, I submit that hating a group specificallybecause of how they act is perfectly fucking sensible. Hmm, to which category does institutionalized patriarchal misogyny (IPM) belong? And to which category does Deuce’s “misandry” belong? Hmm. Not to even mention, Deuce’s man-hate is somewhat exaggerated for effect, I’m sure. (Mine is, in that when pressed, I acknowledge that I just hate/resent mostmen. Probably 85%.) To be honest, I don’t even want to hate them. Men, as a group and as individuals, have done and continue to do some Very Bad Shit to women, and yet I doubt there are many women who truly do. So, yeah. We exaggerate. For effect. Whereas, despite constantly being played down by apparatchiks of the patriarchy, IPM is dead fucking serious. If you consume any popular media at all, you’re reminded of it daily: degrading portrayals; batterings, murders, sadistic sexual assaults. Epically awful imagery– one can’t even call them jokes– like the donkey punch, dirty sanchez, angry pirate, etc., which seem to exist only to remind us of how hated we are, and how we’re all just one lippy remark away from the inevitable rape/murder we so richly deserve. Okay, we get it! Message fucking received; 5×5. I’m hated, Deuce is hated, all of our mothers, and their mothers, and their mothers’ mothers since time out of freakin’ mind, have been hated. Eve is hated. (Yeah, I know what you’re going to say. Look, all she did was what the talking penis told her to do. Talk about damned if you do/don’t.) And yet, fools cannot imagine why anyone would ever hate men. They’re all clutching the pearls and like, “land sakes, why do you hate us so much?” I’m sorry, but that is my line. REPLY o NanellaJuly 8, 2009 at 3:06 AM # This comment is 50 kinds of awesome :-D I wanted to stand up and cheer when I got to the end: “I’m sorry, but that is my line.” HELLS YEAH! REPLY o AshFebruary 11, 2014 at 5:47 PM # You hate men because they hate you? REPLY * SandyAugust 8, 2014 at 9:45 AM # Lame, isn’t it. REPLY * SugarpussAugust 8, 2014 at 9:23 PM # Ah, ableist language. Gotta love. What a shitty little troll. REPLY 12. LizJuly 6, 2009 at 11:05 PM # Nine Deuce. Seriously, you are the shit. I wish more feminists would admit to this instead of wasting their fucking time by placating teh menz. REPLY 13. RenegadeEvolutionJuly 7, 2009 at 2:36 AM # Kinda how I feel about people in general, actually… as for the MRA’s who say “why can’t we hate women”…it’s like dude, you DO, why do you think you are an MRA??? Alas, I still like football. REPLY 14. Chai LatteJuly 7, 2009 at 5:22 AM # I did a post like this awhile back, explaining why men can really suck. Yes, I do kind of hate men. I hate that they have power and I don’t, for reasons that are bullshit at best. And I’m not going to apologize and/or explain myself anymore. Thank you, 9-2, for being the awesome blogger that you are. Vindication is awesome! REPLY 15. FiveByFiveJuly 7, 2009 at 8:14 AM # I guess the question I’ll pose is: Can there ever exist an egalitarian society? As humans we tend to want to keep what we’ve achieved. So do men subjugate women because they’re men or because they’re human? And would it be the same if roles were reversed? REPLY o Nine DeuceJuly 7, 2009 at 5:40 PM # Nice try, but that isn’t what I’m pushing for. REPLY o syndicalist702July 7, 2009 at 7:05 PM # …Enter the tired-ass “isn’t-that-just-the-way-it-is” argument. So what else are you going to say is impossible just because the cavemenz didn’t do it? *yawn* REPLY o ismeJuly 7, 2009 at 9:09 PM # Well…I wouldn’t say that equality between men and women is impossible, just that if it ever happened, people would, IMHO, find someone else to oppress. As to whether women would do things differently if the role was reversed, I’d say no…at most, there’d just be a different form of oppression centering on different things. If men and women would do things differently, than that’s an actual division between the sexes, not just a societal one, and you’d get actual reasons for one or the other being socially dominant. REPLY * TeresaAugust 17, 2009 at 1:59 AM # If human kind could only learn to cherish the old ways, living close to the natural order of things. We could all live together in harmony with our living Earth. It would be just like…..Paradise. REPLY * ismeAugust 18, 2009 at 9:11 AM # “Natural order of things”? If you’re talking about living in harmony with the environment, well, I’d be interested in how you’re accessing the internet without the use of manufactured goods. If you’re talking about living in harmony with other people, then that’s not really “the old ways”…humans have fought amongst themselves more or less forever, ever since they banded together to avoid having to contend with the environment so much…one of the disadvantages of having evolved from a predatory species, I guess. REPLY * TeresaAugust 19, 2009 at 3:37 PM # It was a quote from Wonder Woman. Don’t take life so seriously. Sometimes, it’s best to take a step back and take in the world around you. I think our world today is moving so fast that we are not aware of what is immediately around us in our own environment and how life changes us and even warps our perspective, creating a slight imbalance in our inner core. “Cherish the old ways.” Try to remember, sometimes in life, things are not as complicated as we tend to make them. KISS. “Live in harmony with our living earth.” Learn to feel the world around you. The real living world we live in, that is. Trees, grass, ants, heathly earth alive with life going about its business in the soil beneath us. Have you ever seen the earth move beneath your feet? Try not to let the fight for equality and the constant battle against the man-chine with all of its egotistical, self serving, arrogant and narrow minded thinking; try not to let our struggles take from us the things in this world which should be most important to every human; life and quality of life on our living earth. KISS. Humans have been evolving for quite some time. I don’t think it was exactly trying to “avoid contending with the environment”, as much as humans have struggled to live within their environment, but in the least dangerous way possible as part of the need to survive. At one point, humans came close to no longer existing on earth. Fortunately, because early humans were resilient and had the ability to adapt to the environment and the new conditions as presented, we are still here and will hopefully continue to evolve further. I am surprised that a simple statement such as “live in harmony with our living earth”, was so easily twisted into something far too complicated. This is exactly the opposite of “Keep it simple stupid.”; KISS. Life is not that complicated, unless you choose to make it so, which will further complicate it for those around you. We all touch each others lives in one form or another. Let’s try to make sure our values are refleced in our actions, as well as in the choices we make for ourselves each day. Reflecting the best of what we have to offer each other, rather than so much complication and negativity towards our male counter parts will only serve to hold us back in what we endeavor. Each of us, including women, are accountable for the state of things in the world, such as they are today. Like it or not, women have always held great influence over man, though maybe not in the way we would prefer; as equal voices on the floor. If we continue to wield this influence in the right manner, our goal of true equality will come to fruition. In the mean time, forums and blogs such as this one, will allow us to verbally bitch slap the male of our species until they learn to stop thinking with their man-tool, as opposed to using the giant noodle in their heads as was its intended use either by design or evolution. Wow. I got off track a bit. Sorry. I am groggy and need coffee now, please. REPLY * terryAugust 6, 2013 at 12:54 AM # Be more imaginative. You’re basically saying there’s no way things could be different than they are. Or, the more things change, the more they stay the same. You’re entitled to your viewpoint, I don’t mean to demean it, only trying to encourage you away from what appears to me to be resignation. In my view, it is possible for things to get better, be truly egalitarian, and for all intents and purposes, for humans and nature to have a paradise on earth. No, I don’t have all the answers. That’s what we’re all here for. REPLY o NanellaJuly 8, 2009 at 5:01 AM # Patriarchy is a hierachal social paradigm. Egalitarianism is, by definition, diametrically opposed to hierarchal systems. There is simply no room for oppression of anyone when everyone is on equal footing. I would love to see the scientific evidence that validates this supposition: “As humans we tend to want to keep what we’ve achieved.” It’s more like patriarchy breeds entitlement, and entitled people are society’s equivalent of the spoiled rotten brat. SRB’s tend to throw temper tantrums when people threaten to take away their unearned toys. REPLY 16. Jay BlackJuly 7, 2009 at 7:12 PM # If masculinity is bad, why are most women attracted to it. I was a very efeminent male growing up, artist and all that, and no girl would give me the time of day, and it wasn’t something else about my personality or looks either, as I was actually always pretty popular. I’m an Apha male jerk now (with a bit of a wink and nudge so people don’t take it so seriously), but I had to learn to be one so that I could attract a good women, who I did and am now married to. Women seem to be confused internally about what they want to say the least…. REPLY o Shaun HJuly 7, 2009 at 9:08 PM # Stop making sense. REPLY o ismeJuly 7, 2009 at 9:11 PM # Oh…I see a biter argument forming here. You’d have societal influences, of course. Also…being masculine doesn’t (or at least shouldn’t) mean “being a wanker” any more than feminine does/should not mean “being a nice person”. REPLY o FaithJuly 7, 2009 at 10:01 PM # “Women seem to be confused internally about what they want to say the least….” Wow. A man telling women what we really want. How bloody original. REPLY o Chai LatteJuly 7, 2009 at 11:11 PM # Dude. Don’t tell us what we want. THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM. You are NOT LISTENING and you plainly don’t give a shit about our voices, or anything we might have to say. I suspect this was probably the case long before you ‘became an alpha male jerk’. Minus the alpha male part, of course–to my view, you’re just a garden- variety jerk. And dude? Not all of us are attracted to men, jerky or otherwise. REPLY o NanellaJuly 8, 2009 at 2:42 AM # What fucking bullshit. Look, Mr. Sensitivity, any man who would even consider metamorphosing into an “alpha male jerk” — and, yes, I believe you are being serious — to attract women has zero moral fiber to begin with. A genuinely decent guy would rather be alone for the rest of his life than sell himself out like that, IF he was stupid enough to believe his “artistic side” (LOLZ) was repelling women. So let’s establish point A) You were a wanker to begin with. Women possessing an iota of self-esteem smelled your assholishness a mile away and kept their distance. Point B) You’ve successfully undergone a (*giggles*) “transition”, which essentially means you decided to drop your Nice Guy(tm) facade, since it wasn’t getting you any pussy, and let your already-deeply-entrenched assholery shine through. Congratufuckinglations, you’ve learned that “bad boys” attract women…a certain kind of woman. A woman who has very little to no self-esteem. Yeah, that’s really something to be proud of. REPLY * Jay BlackJuly 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM # I promise being too nice was my problem. In college (art school) I lifted weights. Then I focused on dressing better. It wasn’t until I could fearlously could approach women and deal with the rejection that happened most of the time, basically becoming dead inside to female opinion, that I began to date. This is essentially what an Alpha-male is. Someone who doesn’t “care” emotionally about other peoples judgements of them. It was very hard, I am and was a very sensitive artist (I do have depression, so maybe that was the main thing that turned women away), to make that transition, but I have a high IQ, studied the problem, read books, and adapted. By the way, my wife is very insecure. She was a late bloomer, but now at 30 looks 18. I am always trying to show her how great she is, but she was pretty beat down early in life, and hasn’t quiet shaken her insecurities (of course she has anxiety problems so maybe its too inherent to change). I realize many of you have been hurt by males, I have too, but the ones who hurt me always seemed to have the easist time with women. I believe the too sides need to continue our conversation, but now with the MRA movement, it is no longer a one sided debate. A middle ground will be reached. It is the way of the universe. Balance falls away and reasserts itself often. REPLY * ismeJuly 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM # Balance asserts itself by falling away? What? And…how do MRAs stop it from being a one-sided debate? Is this a “what about the men?” argument? Do you mean advocates of men’s rights, or Men’s Rights Advocates, exclaimation mark and triumphal music? Yes, feminists may seem to hold almost a monopoly of complaints about gender inequalities (that being more or less the only perk to being of the undesirable side of an inequality), but bringing the level of complaints about Men’s Rights up to the same volume probably isn’t the best way to balance that out. I think possibly redressing the balance somewhere else (I’ve got a place in mind) might be the blatantly obviously correct thing to do. That said, I’m all for people actually advocating men’s rights, just not MRAs, in the same way I’m for the ethical treatment of animals and against PETA. REPLY * CharlieJuly 8, 2009 at 10:23 PM # PLEASE NOTE: This is a response to Jay Black from a man because I firmly believe that men need to hold each other accountable for our crap. For the women on this blog: feel free to read or skip as you like- I wouldn’t take up the bandwidth on this blog with this if I had another place to say this to him. That being said… @Jay Black First off, you’re right that sexism and its effects have significant negative impacts on men. And at the same time, the evidence is pretty clear that it’s not nearly as universal or as damaging as the effects that it has on women. A broken leg isn’t as bad as a broken spine- they both suck. But the EMTs will deal with the broken spine first because it’s a bigger injury. And if you’re the person with the broken spine, you really don’t want to hear the person with the broken leg complaining. I totally get what you’re saying about being “too nice” from personal experience. A lot of boys and men are taught that the only alternative to the alpha male is to be a “sensitive guy”. I don’t know if this was your experience, but when I was in that place, I didn’t set boundaries, speak up for myself, get angry, etc. and that definitely got in the way of my relationships. But unlike you, I changed that by stepping outside of the alpha male/wimp model. It’s entirely possible to claim your strength and your power without going so far that you shift into force/control. Some people phrase that as “power with/power over” but I prefer to think of it as power and force/control because when you’re powerful, you don’t need to force or control people. It’s a different way of moving through the world and I think it deserves a separate word. A powerful man wouldn’t need to “dominate the pussies” like the guy that 9-2 blogged about. If you’re truly dead inside to female opinion of you, then I’m sorry that you felt the need to cut part of yourself off. That is one of the costs of sexism for men and it grieves me to hear that. But what if you learned how to be a powerful man who cared what the women (and men) in his life thought of him without letting that rule him? What if you could be both strong and willing to be open to others? What if you stopped thinking of it as a dichotomy of alpha/sensitive and discovered what it means to be powerful without having to control? It’s true that the men who operate out of the alpha model often seem to attract women. There are a lot of theories about why that is. But I can tell you that there’s no shortage of women in the world who would love to connect with a man who can be confident, strong, and powerful while remaining open, sensitive and caring. You’ll almost certainly find that there’s much more joy in your life when you get off the alpha/wimp see- saw. For example, you say that you are “always trying to show [your wife] how great she is”. Right there, you’re saying that you’re trying to control her experience and it doesn’t surprise me to hear that it’s not working. What if you simply said to her “I think that you’re really great AND I understand that you don’t feel that way. How is that for you?” See what happens if you stop trying to control how she feels and spend a little time empathizing with and supporting her. When you try to convince her that her perception of herself is wrong, that is probably only reinforcing her beliefs about who she is. I get that your intentions are really good. I do- I’ve fallen into exactly the same trap more times than I can count and it’s usually because I want to help. But it’s not the way to do it because it’s coming from the place of “I know better than you,” which is an example of control. The idea that it’s an either/or usually reinforces the problems of sexism in the first place. Sure- there are times when life does offer an either/or. But when it comes to how we connect to other people, there’s often room for BOTH sides to have their space. You can be strong AND open to others. You can be sensitive AND maintain your position. It takes practice. AND it’s not nearly as hard as it sounds. We now return you to your regularly scheduled feminist blog. Thanks for your time. REPLY * syndicalist702July 9, 2009 at 9:35 PM # “I firmly believe that men need to hold each other accountable for our crap.” Hear hear, bradah! I can’t seem to get this fool (the responder to my post) to understand that. Feel free to whoop up on him. REPLY * TeresaAugust 19, 2009 at 3:54 PM # I am in agreement with your post, Charlie. It’s a good deal about inner strength in each of us and our own actions and choices we make for ourselves. This is what attracks me to another person. I like people who are strong in their values and core beliefs, who’ve learned how to live according to their values, no matter the opinions of their peers who may find them to be weak for not going through life using the “pack” mentality, as most men seem to do in our world. (I know; the pack mentality is a separate subject matter for a completely different discussion in a totally different blog.) But, I hope my direction was easily understood. If not, I will certainly restate using better clarity of thought as I write. REPLY * Chai LatteJuly 9, 2009 at 1:36 AM # I stand by my original opinion, Jay–you’re no Alpha Male. Oh, sorry–you’re right! All I want is an asshole who doesn’t care about my ‘female opinions’ at all! thank you so much for clearing that up! I’ll say it one more time: you are the problem. REPLY * TeresaAugust 17, 2009 at 12:29 AM # huh? REPLY * NanellaJuly 9, 2009 at 4:46 AM # You’re confusing “nice” with “no backbone”. Niceness and confidence/assertiveness are not mutually exclusive character traits. I believe what you meant to say is that you were too shy to approach women. This is one reason some men mistakenly assume that masculinity archetypes like the Bad Boy make good dating role models. What Bad Boys and Alpha Males have in common is that they exude confidence. What you’ve failed to realize is that people of all stripes and personality types, as long as they’ve got buckets of confidence, are going to get dates. Sensitive artistic types who have faith in their inherent worth as human beings and aren’t afraid to approach women are going to be romantically successful, too. Now that doesn’t mean that every woman approached by a confident man is going to be captivated by said man — the world simply doesn’t operate that way. Dating is supposed to operate on the principle that compatible personalities will find each other so long as they’re willing to tolerate the inevitable rejection that comes with a journey through Datingland. You didn’t have to “deaden” yourself to others’ judgments, you only had to believe in your intrinsic value enough to understand that not every man was made for every woman, and vice versa. Once you realize that we’re all, men and women alike, bumbling awkwardly through the dating thing, we’ve all suffered rejection, we’ve all been rejectors at some point, you see that it’s just the price you pay for playing the game and nothing to take personally, really. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging how emotionally vulnerable this process makes you feel. The vulnerability makes you human. I’m sorry that you didn’t have someone to tell you this earlier in life when you needed to hear it. I’m sorry that you didn’t have someone to empathize with you and assure you that a very human experience was not a liability. Yes, your depression probably did repel women, and not because it made you a flawed, unwanted, undateable person. Depression manifests as negative personality characteristics, it makes you appear unapproachable; of course it was going to serve as a tremendous impediment to attracting women. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to treat the depression? It would probably make a lot of sense to seek treatment for it now. As for the MRA stuff…*sigh*. I don’t think you understand that this was never a “one-sided debate”. Feminists have always encountered opposition. History stands as testimony to the fact that being a member of an oppressed group means having to fight tooth-and-nail for full human status. It has never not been a struggle. REPLY * Jay BlackJuly 9, 2009 at 1:54 PM # Thank you for the well reasoned last two counter arguements. I would like to clarify that my sensitive/Alpha sides are balanced, I’m all about trying to achieve balance, as the Alpha side is more of an act anyway, the sensitive side always remainning the core, I’d say I’m still far on the sensitve side of the spectrum. Also, when I stated that I was trying to show my wife how great she is, I meant in all the ways you suggested. I empathized with her, because we were so similiar, both late bloomers. I didn’t try to control her self image, just point out the positive. As for dead to female opinion, I don’t think you realize how much rejection some men go through. I had a strong self image, teachers, the popular kids even, and most adults found me “interesting” (I’m opinioinated), and I had several social circles ((potheads, jocks, trouble makers, rich kids; they sort of all made a super group for partying), my DnD group, artsy group, and outcasts) but it was female peers who tore down that image. To not let that amount of rejection affect you would mean your already dead inside and probably a sociopath. If I allowed female opinion to mean something significant to me I would of killed myself (instead of just dwelling on it.) And I was never, ever shy. I approached girls quite often (I’d approach anyone who interested me), refusing to ever completely quit (I was never a complete failure in getting dates, just follow up dates, that was the ego killer, because then they rejected me based on something), I have the inate quality of perseverence. (I even tried my hand in most sports despite my unathelticism) Body language alone often let me know girls were not interested in someone like me. I wasn’t a creep who couldn’t pick up on signals. Of course I read a book on body language in 7th grade that was a god send (Geeks aren’t good at that stuff). I refuse to accept your premise that most girls will be attracted to sensitve intellectuals, and the ones who might of been were too shy, or didn’t exist in my social circles, for me to have bumped into them. Hell, I went to art school, assuming girls who would dig me would show up there, but same story) Maybe I was just unlucky, but nerds didn’t date often, and scientists aren’t known for being “eligible bachelors”, even the ones at the top of their fields. I know my description of myself may seem somewhat unbelievably painted in a good light, and I didn’t mean to make this an autobiography, (although I do admit that I like talking about myself as I learn stuff about me from others in that way), and I have no way to prove it of course other than to allow you to contact people I grew up with, which I am actually willing to do (because thats how I role), but I am, was, and will always be an empathizer inspite of possibly having a mild case of aspergers (which is a personality type, not a psychological condition, I love my geeks), and I cannot help but note, that in my world, women controlled my education, my father, socially acceptable behaivor in general, and the social dynamics of peer groups, far more than the few alpha males who controlled their individual cliques. But enough of me: explain why men make up the majority of homeless, prison inmates, school dropouts, special ed. students, suicides, work related deaths, losers in child custody disputes, victims of violence, and earn far fewer college degrees than women. Where is the patriarchal power for them? How does physical strength oppress 51% of the population in a democracy run by the rule of law? How are womens evolutionary advantages (many) curtailed by our “patriarchal system”? I appreciate this dialouge and find it fascinating and important. REPLY * panopticalJuly 10, 2009 at 4:48 AM # This is a fairly long comment, so let me summarize: “Hi. I’m a NICE GUY but women don’t seem to get it. Oh, and by the way, I hereby demand that you explain this ‘feminism’ nonsense to me on my terms.” Allow me to respond: I have noticed that most men can only seem to understand arguments of the form “my dick is larger than yours.” So every time a woman complains about rape, a man has to validate himself by pointing out all those men in prison who are getting raped – which is clearly a much worse problem, because it’s happening not to women but to actual human beings. But this pathological inability to listen to others and this perverse drive towards one-upmanship is clearly not a personality defect, but instead a product of a sensitive individual who has been damaged by the fickle and capricious domination of women. I mean, men aren’t really egotistical scumbags – that’s just a front some men put up to get women to suck their dicks. Has it ever occurred to you that the mere fact that bad things happen to men doesn’t invalidate feminism or negate the oppression of women? In other words, that despite the evidence of centuries of patriarchal hegemony, the world does not, in fact, revolve around you? REPLY * NanellaJuly 11, 2009 at 4:19 AM # “I had a strong self image…but it was female peers who tore down that image. To not let that amount of rejection affect you would mean your already dead inside and probably a sociopath.” You admitted previously that guys bullied you, too, so this is not a single-sex phenomenon. If you were the target of an inordinate amount of criticism and general negative attention from your peers, there had to a be a reason why that was. I’m not insinuating that you deserved the bullying, but I am stating, positively, that there was something about your personality that chronically rubbed people the wrong way. You mentioned that you have Asperger’s and, you know what? That explains a whole hell of a lot. People with autism spectrum disorders have a far more challenging time relating to their peers, and you must know that male Aspies almost always present as cold, callous, supercilious…not the most endearing traits, and certainly not the sort of traits that are going to win over the lady folk. I cannot help but note, that in my world, women controlled my education, my father, socially acceptable behaivor in general, and the social dynamics of peer groups, far more than the few alpha males who controlled their individual cliques. But who sits on the school board? Which sex is most likely to be the school administrator? Nope, sorry, but the men are still overwhelmingly in charge of education in the U.S. “Socially acceptable behavior” in the U.S. has as its foundation in Judeo-Christian morality, and the Judeo-Christian religions were founded and controlled by governing bodies comprised of MEN. You want to blame someone for constrictive social codes, blame your own fucking sex. If your mother also worked outside of the home, I suppose your father did exactly 1/2 of the housework and childrearing, did he? Your mother was never expected to “sexually service” him when she wasn’t in the mood? Your mother had equal career and personal autonomy? I won’t presume to know what the power dynamics were like within your own little social circle growing up, but I do know that the jocks are, and have always been, the ruling elite in American public schools. And you know I’m not referring to the Title IX group. explain why men make up the majority of homeless Research has consistently shown that the homeless are largely mental illness sufferers and addicts who have fallen through the gaps in the social safety net. Thanks to the social construct of masculinity under patriarchy, men are encouraged to repress emotion and discouraged to seek assistance in dealing with emotional distress. You can give your sex a giant FUCKING THANKS, BROS! for making it more difficult for men to seek mental health treatment. prison inmates You’re making this too easy. The patriarchal construct of masculinity encourages male aggression, discourages male expression of emotion, and this toxic recipe creates a human ticking time bomb. Throw in the masculinity ritual of excessive alcohol consumption (how manly!) and drug use, the resultant lowered inhibitions, not to mention possible frontal lobe damage, and it’s only a matter of time before an emotionally disturbed young man goes off in somebody’s face. I’ve spent a fair amount of time working with at-risk youth, and I can tell you that every single one of those poor boys is a caricature of hypermasculinity. Psychopathy does occur far more frequently in the male population, and there are probably milder variants (would that ever explain things). Psychopathy has been studied to death and there is very little, if anything, that professionals can do to treat it. Psychopaths and narcissists are notoriously resistant to treatment by virtue of the very traits that define them. school dropouts Same thing, essentially. Rebellion is a stereotypically male-coded behavior in our society, so it’s more acceptable for boys to act out and act up. Greater expections for obedience are placed on girls. special ed. students I’m not so sure that there’s a statistically significant divide there; I’d need to see the evidence. I suppose perhaps you’re referring to the higher rates of autism in the male population, which, if so, how is that even relevant to your argument? suicides Annnnnd we’re back to the subject of socially constructed masculinity and repression of emotion, which means fewer men seek treatment for mental health issues than women. Hell yeah, we’d love to change this dynamic. It would be great if masculinity would stop impeding men from becoming fully realized human beings. So help us overthrow patriarchy already! Why do you want to continue holding your sex back? work related deaths Women have been historically excluded from industrial labor positions or harrassed mercilessly if they dare get a job “on the line”. It’s not a female-friendly line of work. losers in child custody disputes Primary care-givers are always given top priority in custody disputes. Women have been traditionally stay-at-home-moms because that is their female-coded role under patriarchy. Women have been barred from participating equally in the work force, historically speaking, so they’re more likely to be the primary care-giver. victims of violence Now you’re just fucking with us, unless you’re including statistics for prison violence and military-related deaths, both being male-dominated institutions, I don’t have to tell you. earn far fewer college degrees than women If you look at the history of higher education you’ll see that your sex has benefitted from it far more and for far longer. I think there was a temporary spike in the percentage of female college graduates (ah, I found it, 57%….WOO! really big difference there, Jay). Wow, you’re panicking over a fucking margin of 7%? When men have traditionally comprised the majority of the collegiate student body? What do you want us to do, Jay, to ensure that the balance will always be a perfect 50:50 ratio, or else favor the MEN, LIKE IT HAS FOR CENTURIES? Do you not realize that there are more women than men in the world and that statistics for college enrollment may very well accurately reflect the gender ratio? Let’s not get started on how the male population is siphoned off into the military, or, rather, let’s. Because feminists are pretty much anti-war, which means more boys at home dreaming big dreams and pursuing careers instead of getting their heads blown off by order of YOUR sex. And you’re throwing a fucking tantrum when it’s the men who still are overwhelmingly in positions of power in academic institutions, when it’s men who dominate middle and upper management positions in corporations all over the world, when it’s men who still run the fucking government. Here’s a statistic for you: MRAs are the world’s most pathetic and entitled cry-babies. And I’m not even going to deign to address your junk science arguments. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 11, 2009 at 4:47 AM # What she said. (Thanks, Nanella, because that needed retort and I might not have had the strength). REPLY * Jay BlackJuly 9, 2009 at 2:02 PM # BTW: My depression has been successfully treated since I was about 21/22. Thanks for your concern. Weed helped before that. Depression sucks, what a cruel trick of nature to make someone generally unhappy. However, it has the possiblity of allowing for empathetic insights otherwise unattainable. My favorite example if Lincoln. REPLY * panopticalJuly 9, 2009 at 7:42 AM # I swear, the next guy I hear whining pathetically about how “nice guys” can’t get women because women only want “bad boys” might just push me right over the edge. Do you even comprehend how arrogant (stupid, obnoxious, self-serving) it is to surmise that since there is nothing wrong with your looks, intellect, or personality, clearly your lack of romantic success must be due to some defect of women as a group? Seriously, dude. Weightlifting? Dressing better? Could it be that women didn’t like you because you were shallow and vapid? And if your spelling and grammar are any indication, you’re barely literate. High IQ? Give me a freakin’ break. I mean, seriously, you write like a god damned lolcat. You want us to believe that you used to be a nice guy? You weren’t, and here’s how I know: Every sentence that you write is literally dripping with the sense of entitlement that you have. You have as much as claimed that you are justified in being an asshole to women because you are entitled to have a woman and so whatever you may do toward that end is totally legit. This is not the jerk persona, either – this was the line of reasoning that led you to adopt the jerk persona in the first place. If you had had actual respect for other human beings you might have comprehended that perhaps men who are able to date successfully are not all alpha-male jerks and women are not all credulous idiots who can easily be fooled out of their pants by a jerk persona. If you had wanted to form a meaningful relationship with another human being, you would have wanted to relate to her not based on a false identity that you took on to get her in the sack, but on whatever characteristics you might possess that make you a good partner. If, on the other hand, what you wanted was to have women as fucktoys, emotional band-aids, and trophies to validate your sad existence, well then you would have had no problem with the “be someone you’re not while treating women like shit” approach. But you expect us to believe that even though you treated women, from day one, as objects to be acquired through any means necessary, you’re really a very nice guy. You know, internally. Yeah, fucking right. And I got a bridge to sell you. REPLY * breatheinspiritJuly 10, 2009 at 1:54 PM # “And if your spelling and grammar are any indication, you’re barely literate. High IQ? Give me a freakin’ break. I mean, seriously, you write like a god damned lolcat.” I’m not having a terrible amount of sympathy for Jay, but that was way the fuck out of line. How about sticking to the matter at hand instead of attacking the other person’s grammar and spelling? REPLY * FaithJuly 10, 2009 at 6:46 PM # Oops. “Breatheinspirit” would be me, Faith… REPLY * panopticalJuly 10, 2009 at 7:10 PM # Usually I’d agree with you, but he opened the door when he touted his own high IQ and flawless personality. He made his intellect a part of the matter at hand when he made the explicit claim that he’s intelligent and the implicit claim that the only intelligent thing to do if you want to get dates is to treat women like crap. Obviously neither of those claims are true. REPLY * Shaun HJuly 10, 2009 at 8:28 PM # “Do you even comprehend how arrogant (stupid, obnoxious, self-serving) it is to surmise that since there is nothing wrong with your looks, intellect, or personality, clearly your lack of romantic success must be due to some defect of women as a group?” Just for the record, back when it mattered I was in good shape, had a nice face, was reasonably intelligent and curious about the world around me. But I was shy, so I guess I was defective in the personality department. I guess then we’d have to go further back to determine why I was shy, could it be that the female of the species strikes the first, and most deeply felt, blow in the struggle in which we are so clearly engaged? This is my opinion borne of experience and no matter how eloquent and compelling your argument is, you simply cannot go back in time and change it. I’m willing to step back and watch women manage the world in a more overt manner and would love more than anything for my brothers to join me. I’m unwilling to take more than half the blame as a gender for what is wrong with the world. Clearly the idea of co-mingling between the genders has run its course. I’m with you, it needs to stop. Nothing good can come of it. REPLY * NanellaJuly 11, 2009 at 2:03 AM # “…Could it be that the female of the species strikes the first, and most deeply felt, blow in the struggle in which we are so clearly engaged? Ah, and at last all becomes clear: MRAs have mommy issues. Personally, I recommend therapy over bigotry. REPLY * terryAugust 5, 2013 at 11:42 PM # No, women do not/ did not strike the first blow. And you are an idiot for thinking this is a “struggle.” Pure man – us against them power game. That is why you suck. A good indicator of why you whine about how you’ve been hurt because you were shy. Maybe you just have a very unattractive personality. I can vouch for that right here and now. And also, shit, be the change you want to see in the world. Don’t expect others to have integrity if you yourself don’t. You were shy, and women went after loud obnoxious types or some such stupid story? I have no idea what you’re trying to say, I really don’t care to look up every stupid comment you make. All I can say is that you are pathetic. You won’t acknowledge your own shortcomings, you can’t see them. You have a distorted view of the world. So your stupid arguments make sense to you, but to not to me. And as for your stupid challenges for women to run the world, rest assured, it will be a much, much better place. Women are better at wielding power without abusing it then men are. That much is patently obvious. Look who in the family unit runs the system with equal caring for all, versus who has to be king of the shit pot. REPLY * WillJuly 12, 2009 at 6:31 AM # “And if your spelling and grammar are any indication, you’re barely literate. High IQ? Give me a freakin’ break. I mean, seriously, you write like a god damned lolcat.” That’s fucking hilarious!!! REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 12, 2009 at 6:39 AM # I agree, panoptical, that was a good one. Will – you are, however, an asshole and I won’t publish any of your comments but this one since they’re all misogynistic bullshit. REPLY * terryAugust 6, 2013 at 12:41 AM # I have only to hear this. Typical man shit. He thinks its funny when someone else is “powned” whether or not its been well deserved. He just likes to see who is going to come out on top, and aligns himself with the winner whether or not that person deserves respect. REPLY * TeresaAugust 19, 2009 at 4:01 PM # Oh my gawd! Einstein was not the best writer either, but he “clearly” had a high I.Q. A truly intelligent person would easily overcome such triviality in a blog post. You could have nicely reminded the writer to consider using spelling and grammar check before posting comments if they wish to be taking more seriously by the readers. I’m just sayin….. Peace dude and dudettes! REPLY * MegNovember 1, 2009 at 5:01 AM # I’m pretty sure Einstein lived before the time of spell-check. Had he lived in the modern day, I bet would’ve been intelligent enough to take the two seconds required to *use it*, especially if he was spouting off about how smart he was. REPLY * syndicalist702July 9, 2009 at 10:00 PM # You sure that the women aren’t rejecting you because you’re stuck on stupid? You’re being corrected left-and-right, man, think about what you’re typing. REPLY * BecstarJuly 26, 2009 at 8:31 AM # Here’s a radical concept: you were after sex but were to insecure to approach anyone so you unleashed your inner misogynist in order to pick up a woman who is incredibly insecure (thanks to the patriarchy) who thinks her only worth lies in sex. The worse you treat her, the more she thinks she’s only worth sex and so the more sex you get. Congratulations on being an A-grade asshole. REPLY * karinovaJuly 26, 2009 at 8:31 PM # “It wasn’t until I could fearlessly approach women and deal with the rejection that happened most of the time, basically becoming dead inside to female opinion, that I began to date. This is essentially what an alpha-male is. Someone who doesn’t “care” emotionally about other peoples judgements of them.” How does how you dress or how often you work out relate to being “too nice”? Don’t you see that dealing with the potential for rejection is what made you more attractive and dateable? It’s called self-confidence. (Or at least, the appearance of it.) Seeming self-confident— without being an asshole— is a near-guaranteed way to attract positive attention. On the other hand, very insecure people can be quite attractive… to other insecure people looking to feel better about themselves. Which is why I’d argue that “alpha-males” care very much about what other people think. Dickish alpha-male behavior is rooted in insecurity: by definition, they have to surround themselves with less-confident people. (The pinnacle of alpha-male-ism isn’t being good at knocking down challengers, it’s being good at making sure there areno challengers.) However, dickish behavior is normalized, to the point that— ironically enough— it’s generally perceived as a display of confidence. Which is why it can and does attract a (certain type of) woman. Consider: you yourself describe your wife as chronically insecure. REPLY * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 11:45 PM # I have to say; my husband and I were discussing the “balance” needed between men and women earlier today. We had a pretty involved discussion which has proved to be multifaceted in perspectives, feelings, great emotion, confusion, and values and ethics. It is obvious, both men and women are out of balance in today’s world and there is much growing to do on both sides before a new balance is created. For now, my husband and I choose the path of listening and truly hearing what each side has to offer the other. REPLY * DanaAugust 18, 2009 at 12:53 AM # Dude? You didn’t get dates because you were an “alpha male,” you got dates because you acted interested in women. I would rather date a guy who’s interested in me than tear my eyes out over a guy who acted interested for two seconds and then walked out, or a guy who never looks at me at all. It ain’t rocket science. There’s nothing “manly” about it. If women weren’t socialized to be so damn passive I bet you would have loved to have a woman come up and show interest in you. Just guessing… could be wrong. REPLY * Rachelle KebailiMarch 8, 2015 at 2:52 PM # Hahahaha!!!!! Brilliant!! REPLY o ismeJuly 10, 2009 at 2:05 PM # Let us assume, for sake of argument, that women tend to be attracted to “jerks”, and not to “nice guys”. Or even, lets say that all women are solely interested in bad men. Does it then follow that men should behave that way, because otherwise they won’t be attractive to women? Surely there is a correct way to act, regardless if it allows you to pick up or not. REPLY * Jay BlackJuly 10, 2009 at 8:51 PM # Sorry about my grammer (I’m not proof reading). I’m a visual spatial thinker primarily, probably with a bit of Asperger’s. They tried to send me away to a special school for the gifted in elementary school (refused for various reasons), and I have had my intellect openly admired by most of my teachers and proffesors. (I won’t list academic achievments as much of that boils down to hard work, not intellect.) That doesn’t mean smart people don’t have bad ideas. I’m here to learn while sharing my own beliefs, because that is one of the best ways to learn about your own beliefs, and evolve them, that’s all. I truly believe that through thoughtful debate (arguing) both sides will learn something. Also, I was never a jerk to women per se, just indefferent if there is one word to describe the cool guy attitude. And I see that you are bothered about my ego or self-centerdness. I never denied that, and have hinted at it; “like to talk about myself”, “never ever been shy”. I admit what we all should admit. Anyone who doesn’t think they are self-centered is dillusional, and I would rather be self-centered, which is honestly the biological norm, than detached from reality. That does not invalidate my ability for empathy. That does not stop the emotional pain I experience when witnessing emotional of physical suffering in others. Anyways, please read “The Evolution of Desire” and “The War Against Boys”, because obviously most of you are not willing to take me seriously, so maybe a book by someone else will do a better job at explaining some of my views. As an end, because I think I am done here, (unless succussfully provoked back into the debate, darn that ego), many of you have been very dismissive and hostile, really pretty mean to me, which only entrenches me in my belief that women are not the sweet and inoncent gender they claim to be. P.S. Reading further down from my posts comments, I see some referring to this as a “Safe Place” to vent. I did not approach it as such, and did not now that. I believe we all need outlets for emotions and did not mean to intrude if the policy and practice of this blog is for venting, and I take back my statements about the hostility then as I realize its purpose. Bad things can be used for good ends, just like mens propensity for violence. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 10, 2009 at 8:58 PM # Oh, we’ve got us an MRA. Lucky us. REPLY * NanellaJuly 11, 2009 at 1:17 AM # Who non-ironically believes that pointing us in the direction of books based on pseudoscience and misogynistic propaganda lends credibility to his argument. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 11, 2009 at 1:19 AM # A really smart artist who is also really good looking. REPLY * NanellaJuly 11, 2009 at 1:35 AM # …Many of you have been very dismissive and hostile, really pretty mean to me, which only entrenches me in my belief that women are not the sweet and inoncent gender they claim to be. “Sweet and innocent” is not a compliment. It’s what men call wide-eyed passive fembots who eat a metric ton of shit a day and beg for more. Just in case I wasn’t clear, it’s an insult. REPLY * cpJune 15, 2013 at 7:20 AM # “Sweet and Innocent” has never been the female claim to fame, making decisions managing households and instilling moral and ethical judgement in our kids (and the rest of society) has been. no matter what men do or say its the ladies that the world relies on. REPLY * KayJuly 12, 2009 at 2:50 PM # Dude, just by leaving such long comments on someone elses blog you are acting entitled and you can’t even see it. Look, I think, as has been said before, you were pretending to be something you were not and women saw through it. When you dropped the act and were your asshole self then you atracted someone. REPLY * harmonyJuly 14, 2009 at 7:43 AM # (other than one exception, the quotes are from jay black) “doesn’t mean smart people don’t have bad ideas. I’m here to learn while sharing my own beliefs […]” i don’t think jay is the bad guy that people here are interpreting him to be. i take his word for it that what he says in the above quote is true. “It wasn’t until I could fearlously could approach women and deal with the rejection that happened most of the time, basically becoming dead inside to female opinion, that I began to date. This is essentially what an Alpha-male is. Someone who doesn’t “care” emotionally about other peoples judgements of them.” see, this just isn’t my definition of alpha male. i think alpha males are scummy people. and incorporating alpha-male-ness into your personality, even a little bit, means incorporating scummy-ness into your personality. which is why a strategy like this fucking sucks: “I would like to clarify that my sensitive/Alpha sides are balanced, I’m all about trying to achieve balance, as the Alpha side is more of an act anyway, the sensitive side always remainning the core, I’d say I’m still far on the sensitve side of the spectrum.” why would you want to have any alphaness in you at all? bleh!! it also shows you didn’t understand the essence of what charlie said to you: “But unlike you, I changed that by stepping outside of the alpha male/wimp model. […] What if you stopped thinking of it as a dichotomy of alpha/sensitive and discovered what it means to be powerful without having to control?” but anyways, i think the main problem here is in how you’re defining an alpha male. you seem to think it’s a man who (in the heterosexual context) is unphased by romantic rejection from women. and so when you stopped being phased by such rejection, you seemed to think this made you alpha. but it doesn’t. some alpha males have this characteristic. others do not (and in fact get very hurt by such rejection… and then they cope with it by being abusive to a woman, or to a less alpha man, or by jacking off to misogynistic porn, or whatever). “Anyways, please read “The Evolution of Desire” and “The War Against Boys”, because obviously most of you are not willing to take me seriously, so maybe a book by someone else will do a better job at explaining some of my views. ” i haven’t read these particular books, but i’ve read other MRA stuff… and the analysis is always far inferior to stuff written about masculinity and the male plight from a feminist perspective. i recommend: “the will to change: men, masculinity, and love” by bell hooks “we real cool: black men and masculinity” by bell hooks (focuses on black men, but insights into masculinity in general) “the gender knot: unravelling our patriarchal legacy” allan g. johnson “boys will be men: raising our sons for courage, caring, and community” by paul kivel good luck :) REPLY * LizzieJuly 24, 2009 at 3:11 AM # Jay: I went on a “I hate Males” rant tonight, ergo this website. You are brave for posting. For women there, I am a feminist. And forlorn and angry in many relationships. But, please, don’t rag on a man because of his honest thoughts and contributions. Listen. REPLY * TeresaAugust 19, 2009 at 4:21 PM # I hold no aggression towards you or your words, as they are intended to enlighten, as well as invite feedback in an attempt at further discussion on the subject. I too am curious as to the reason for the aggression, or hostile comments being sent your way. I don’t think aggression or hostility is the correct way to keep lines of communication open. If we are to better understand each other, and the needs of both men and women in order to live a more balanced life, then we will “ALL” need to learn how to communicate more appropriately. If women, and some men, would please try to keep this thought in mind; when we “choose” to communicate on any level and in any written or spoken discussion where millions of people have the ability to read our words, these words “YOU” choose to use “WILL” be a reflection on women and the struggles of women. Clearly you can each understand, the manner in which you choose to “represent” will inevitably reflect either positively or negatively on the minds of others, thereby holding the potential to mold the views and opinions of readers; men and women. I would hope that a slightly less aggressive and less hostile communication approach could be taken for this reason alone. If my reasoning on this issue is faulty, please enlighten me, as I am also in the position of “representing”. I would like to know I am not doing it poorly, if it can be helped. REPLY * truthvscomplianceOctober 20, 2009 at 4:15 PM # I consider myself an egotist – not an egocentric. I actually DESPISE egocentrics because egocentrics really CANNOT see things through any other persons’ perspective, other than their own (in fact, they pretty much deny that other perspectives exist). I have NEVER met an egocentric that gave a damn about anyone elses concerns or had an ounce of empathy for anyone’s suffering – other than their own. I don’t believe that most people are egocentric and most of the time – when egocentrics make that claim, it’s only to justify the intrusion of themselves onto everyone else. REPLY * jenpetJuly 14, 2009 at 10:13 PM # “Surely there is a correct way to act, regardless if it allows you to pick up or not.” Absolutely. Be who you are. If you’re a man-hating feminist, be that. If you’re a feminist who adores men, be that. If you’re a chauvinistic pig, fine, be that. If you’re a woman who happens to like living under the thumb of a man, be that. Or whatever you want to be. i’m just sick of seeing people pretend to be what they aren’t. If the guy’s a jerk, i’d rather he act like a jerk in the first place then find out later, yanno? The fact of the matter is there are enough people in the world that you can choose who you want to interact with. Sure, fight for equality everywhere it can be had – but lets expect people to be people. That is, diverse, strange and not all the same. REPLY * DanaAugust 18, 2009 at 12:56 AM # I think jerks get more female attention because they’re on the prowl to victimize women, so in order to do that, they must “set the bait” by displaying interest in their targets. It doesn’t last forever. Either they drop her like a hot potato when they’re done with her or they hold on to her and it escalates into abuse. The stereotypical “nice guy” who complains about the “jerks” getting “all the women” is typically a guy who sits off in a corner trying to be invisible. How’s that going to get anyone’s attention? Admittedly, jerks have more confidence because the culture encourages them. Nice guys don’t have that advantage. Ditto for passive women getting encouragement versus assertive women not getting it. REPLY * Big Mobe (@Big_Mobe)August 9, 2013 at 7:02 PM # Its not just jerks. Iv seen plenty of nice guys get attention because they are crazy as hell and not afraid of anything or anyone. Its that “I don’t give a shit what others think” attitude that draws attention. REPLY o RedRobinOctober 3, 2014 at 11:47 PM # Ahh, the “very efeminent male”. How many times have you apologized to your magical wife for upsetting her when she’s come home and found you with your best friend’s cock in your mouth, I wonder, “efeminent” misogynist male? Serious question. Answer it. Gay men DO NOT get a pass her. You’re as womanhating as straight males are but…extra fabulous and magical so women be especially careful never to UPSET this demographic with your inconvenient whinging gay men can be misogynist too… remember, white gay affluent men are SUF-FER-ING… omg… and so much more than lesbians, especially lesbians of color… march in line now girls… tight asses, shut mouths… gay man better than you… repeat that… gay man better than woman… Get tossed and get off this site REPLY 17. leisJuly 8, 2009 at 1:39 AM # Jay-what a total fail. You didn’t need to turn into a total dick, you just needed to start wearing Axe. We can’t resist assholes or dudes that wear Axe. REPLY o Chai LatteJuly 8, 2009 at 3:02 AM # OMGLOL….Leis, you just made me spray Coca-Cola all over my monitor! REPLY 18. NanellaJuly 8, 2009 at 2:54 AM # I, for one, am eagerly awaiting Pfizer’s release of their lesbian conversion drug, Sapphocet. They’ve already reeled me in with their new ad campaign: “Say ‘goodbye’ to pole and ‘hello’ to hole!” I’ll probably have to sell my soul to afford a year’s supply, but it will be soooo worth it. REPLY 19. Polly StyreneJuly 8, 2009 at 6:30 AM # You could say unclefucker instead. A la South Park. REPLY 20. GayleJuly 8, 2009 at 10:39 AM # Holy crap! This same jerk off seems to be at every airport terminal I’ve ever entered. What with obnoxious dudes and airports? Is there some sort of ratio between how much a man travels and how much of an asshole he is? Hmm. REPLY 21. crankosaurJuly 8, 2009 at 4:56 PM # This post, and the accompanying comment thread, make me smile. I can say with a great deal of assurance that everything bad that has happened, at least in the historic era and that isn’t the result of natural disaster, is the fault of men. This includes when bad things happen to men and when women act like assholes: all because of systems of interaction imposed by men. Like you said, certain individual dudes can be okay, but they have to resist a lot of shit to be that way; exception, not the rule. REPLY o ismeJuly 8, 2009 at 7:04 PM # Hey? I might have missed something somewheree, but it sounds like you are saying that when men do something bad it’s their own fault, but when women do something wrong it’s the fault of society. Or are you saying that as society has been male dominated more or less forever, all credit and blame for everything must be given to men, and women are irrelevant? ? REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 8, 2009 at 7:08 PM # No, but I am saying that men face less constrictions on their behavior (due to their role as an oppressor, rather than oppressed, class) than women and thus have more responsibility for their oppressive behavior. REPLY * crankosaurJuly 9, 2009 at 3:40 PM # I see how you got that impression… When men do something bad, it’s because of societal systems put in place by men. When women do something bad, it’s for the same reason. As I told Mr. Crankosaur the other day, men are not inherently more gross than women, society just makes them more gross. REPLY 22. Shaun HJuly 8, 2009 at 8:00 PM # Almost as many men as women are oppressed by the ruling elites. I submit that many miss this truth because the men are considered losers, therefore invisible. Oh well. I wish you the very best in your endeavors. Thanks Shaun REPLY o Nine DeuceJuly 8, 2009 at 8:03 PM # Are you saying they don’t ever turn around and take that out on women? REPLY * Shaun HJuly 8, 2009 at 8:34 PM # Only if you think avoiding women can be considered taking it out on women. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 9, 2009 at 2:10 AM # How about using degrading, violent porn? Studies show that men in lower social classes tend to go for more degrading porn. REPLY * NanellaJuly 9, 2009 at 3:17 AM # And domestic violence rates are higher in the lower socioeconomic brackets, too. Shaun, you’re talking apples and oranges here, as there can exist multiple forms of oppression, affecting different groups, within one society. REPLY * Orlando CJuly 12, 2009 at 12:48 AM # ND, Nanella- Are you planning to cite these studies of yours? Or is blatant classism just so axiomatic that it isn’t even worth bringing in evidence? REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 12, 2009 at 12:53 AM # I already said I’m not sure about that claim. REPLY * NanellaJuly 12, 2009 at 9:55 PM # No one is obligated to provide linkage to placate your obnoxious demands, and I’m not about to whip out scientific data to support every single assertion I make. For one, I don’t retain every single piece of information I read in personal records. Secondly, I don’t have the time nor the inclination to scour the internet for said information. If you disbelieve anything I say here, trust me, it’s not going to hurt my feelings. That said, I can and will provide evidence if someone asks me to and if it’s readily available:http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/victims.htm#income REPLY * Orlando CJuly 12, 2009 at 11:49 PM # Nanella- Thanks for the BJS link. The jump below $7500 a year is eye-opening, but I am inclined to doubt the drop at the high end. Lest we forget, it was second-wave feminism that pointed out the major problems in reporting bias for DV and sex abuse within the upper class. And I am not sure what is obnoxious about asking that your claims be based on fact. If you are going to assert the positivist privilege of having “opinions based on science,” then you should have some science available. While I am hardly trying to side with Shaun H, it is kind of striking that ND will pull out a study to slap him with, then immediately acknowledge it to be bullshit, and not even apologize. I appreciate your providing a link, but I don’t think I’m out of line to ask for one. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 12, 2009 at 11:53 PM # I didn’t acknowledge it to be bullshit, I said I wasn’t convinced that the numbers are lower for higher classes. I’m pretty sure violent porn use exists across the board, though I don’t doubt that it might increase with economic oppression. There has to be someone down the line to kick, and it’s usually women. REPLY * NanellaJuly 13, 2009 at 12:34 AM # The jump below $7500 a year is eye-opening, but I am inclined to doubt the drop at the high end. Lest we forget, it was second-wave feminism that pointed out the major problems in reporting bias for DV and sex abuse within the upper class. The problem with that argument is that DV is underreported regardless of socioeconomic status. I think the figures should be much higher for every bracket. And I am not sure what is obnoxious about asking that your claims be based on fact. If you are going to assert the positivist privilege of having “opinions based on science,” then you should have some science available. You called me a classist. I don’t take kindly to unwarranted claims concerning my race/class/gender sensibilities. I doubt it would kill you to politely request corroborative evidence, and if you’re refused, oh well. It’s not like we’re testifying in court here. REPLY * Orlando CJuly 13, 2009 at 2:28 AM # The absolute numbers are irrelevant to the claim you (both) made, which is that a given criminal behavior, and a behavior that you consider sociopathic, is disproportionately found in the lower class. And you didn’t state this as an opinion; ND said and you inferred that it was based on evidence. In the absence of evidence, yes, that’s classist. Absolutely.If I say that I read a study one time saying Jews are more likely to be child molestors, and I don’t want to be accused of anti-Semitism, it is on me to find that study. Yes? * NanellaJuly 13, 2009 at 11:22 PM # Okay, Orlando, you and I obviously have different definitions of “classism”. The studies cited in this discussion were relevant to the subject at hand and not targeted at economically disadvantaged men as a whole. We’re talking about random members of a social group doing bad things, NOT an entire group of people. Did anyone here insinuate that ALL lower class men are wife beaters and sexual deviants? THAT would be classist. When somebody does advance that argument, you’re welcome to cry foul. * Orlando CJuly 14, 2009 at 1:17 AM # No, I agree completely. All you are saying, in equivalency, is that science has proven–offstage–that Jews are unusually likely to be child molesters. You aren’t saying that allJews are child molesters. Why would anyone get upset? * NanellaJuly 14, 2009 at 7:04 AM # If we were having a discussion about ethnicity and pedophilia…but you know what? That would never happen because ethnicity is comprised of biologically inherited characteristics and things get really dicey whenever you start making assertions about biological predispositions and groups of people. It is generally agreed by scrupulous, non-prejudiced people that biology-as-destiny arguments are all-around crappy and ultimately untenable. Socioeconomic status is not an immutable, biological characteristic and, therefore, can be examined objectively as a contributing factor in demographic-specific phenomena. You have done a whopping good job of perverting the definition of “classism”, by the way. * Orlando CJuly 14, 2009 at 6:09 PM # Look, throughout the literature on DV, it is routinely pointed out that police and medical personnel systemically ignore evidence of DV in the middle and upper class, especially among whites, because of structural classism and racism. This is not exactly fringe stuff; it was, for instance, the subject of a JAMA special report (“Doctors Falter,” 1992). It is discussed in pretty much every article on DV I’ve ever read, usually in the context of the inherent reporting biases that muddy the waters here. And it is a very dangerous bias, since it directly endangers one set of women while reinforcing stereotypes about another set. It is discouraging—especially on a feminist site—to see those nuances and establishedpatterns of bias get swept aside in order to claim that the poor folks beat their women more often, full stop. But what I find especially discouraging, and kind of confusing, is your response afterwards. You make a claim which groups as conservative as the AMA have been describing as classist for two decades, and seem shocked that I’m taking umbrage at it. * NanellaJuly 14, 2009 at 11:57 PM # Look, throughout the literature on DV, it is routinely pointed out that police and medical personnel systemically ignore evidence of DV in the middle and upper class I have not personally encountered this phenomenon “throughout the literature on DV” and you’ve provided exactly one study focusing exclusively on negligence within the medical community to support your argument. I’m sorry, I’m just not convinced that there is a statistically significant lapse in reporting for DV in the upper classes. I’m not arguing that the statistics 100% accurately reflect incidences of DV in U.S. households. I did acknowledge that DV is underreported, but that phenomenon is notexclusive to the upper socioeconomic classes. To reiterate, I firmly believe that the numbers should be higher in every bracket. If you want to, you can read all about the DOJ’s methodology for collecting DV data; there’s a pdf file in there somewhere. The data is based on reported and non-reported incidents — it is derived from crime statistics and survey figures. If you want to persuade yourself that it’s unjustly biased against a specific group, you’re going to have to ferret out that information for yourself. The statistics reflect my personal experience within the socioeconomic strata of society; I’m satisfied that the numbers are indicative of real-life trends. I’m sorry but I can’t see what is classist about acknowledging that poverty and financial difficulties produce chronic psychological stress which, in turn, exacerbates existing mental illness and lowers stress threshold. Stress makes people wacky, it makes them act out, that’s a given. It’s vitally important that the relationship between disadvantaged socioeconomic status and DV is clearly documented so that funding for prevention and treatment programs can be secured. Not having that funding in place would be plenty dangerousfor those members of society who have been historically underserved and marginalized because they lack class privilege. This sidebar is starting to smack of “who will look out for the rich white women?”. I don’t think I care very much for the turn this discussion is taking. * TeresaAugust 19, 2009 at 4:31 PM # Nice! I think you made your point well, Nanella. This is not a court room and we’re not on the witness stand giving testimony. I think there is nothing wrong with asking for supporting data if it serves to educate others. Hell, if supporting documentation, or information linkage serves to educate just one person, then the request for said information is justified. – Next Does anyone wish to cross examine? If not, I will allow Nanella to step down. * Shaun HJuly 9, 2009 at 5:05 AM # I find it interesting that you bring class into the discussion. How is it relevant if you hate all men? In fact, the asshole in your essay certainly wasn’t part of the lower class or even the working class. Anyway, I don’t think my life has been easy. I’ve been an outcast my entire life. I couldn’t even begin to describe for you the emotional pain that has been inflicted upon me by girls and young women since grade school. And I don’t expect you to care. Didn’t mean to crash your party. Best of luck taking over the world, I mean that. Shaun REPLY * FaithJuly 9, 2009 at 12:58 PM # “Studies show that men in lower social classes tend to go for more degrading porn.” I’m personally not buying that. It could be true. But what I suspect is going on is that men in those brackets are more likely than higher income men to get busted using degrading porn and are more likely to admit to using degrading porn. Plus, I wonder if the studies might be intentionally slanted by folks who are biased against poor folks. My experience says that men use degrading porn regardless of their status. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 10, 2009 at 8:09 PM # I don’t know if I buy it either, but the idea that lower class men have it worse than women is a bit too much to take. REPLY * FaithJuly 10, 2009 at 8:33 PM # “but the idea that lower class men have it worse than women is a bit too much to take.” Agreed. REPLY * FaithJuly 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM # “Only if you think avoiding women can be considered taking it out on women.” I’d be thrilled if more men avoided women. Instead they tend to “take it out” on us by harassing us, raping us, beating us, taking away our rights, and beating off to humiliating, degrading porn. REPLY * Shaun HJuly 10, 2009 at 7:11 PM # Let me get this straight. It’s not enough that men leave you alone, they must also not masturbate to porn? What do you care, as long as they don’t talk to, or look at you? REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM # Read my porn series. Maybe start here. REPLY * Shaun HJuly 10, 2009 at 9:41 PM # That was a thought provoking essay with which I can find little, if any fault. Maybe technology will enable men to find a release without harming or bothering women. Shaun REPLY * NanellaJuly 11, 2009 at 4:54 AM # WTF do you think men did before the advent of the printing press? Do you seriously think single men were running around with hard-ons 24/7 because they couldn’t masturbate? REPLY * Shaun HJuly 12, 2009 at 5:29 PM # Has everything with regard to male/female interaction NOT changed in the last hundred years? Seriously, single men? What’s that a couple hundred years ago? Some 18 year old boy? REPLY * NanellaJuly 12, 2009 at 10:14 PM # Oh please. And since maternal mortality rates were significantly higher at the beginning of last century, that meant a far greater number of young male widowers. Who weren’t able to satisfy their sexual urges themselves because they didn’t have a Playboy lying around the house, apparently. Let’s not forget that sexual morality was such at the time that premarital sex was prohibited. I suppose men who weren’t actively courting a woman, and even those who were courting a woman, had no choice but to endure agonizing hours looking at their stiffies and wishing there was something they could do about it. * FaithJuly 10, 2009 at 8:32 PM # “What do you care, as long as they don’t talk to, or look at you?” Oh, maybe because there are real women being really abused, humiliated, and degraded in porn. Maybe because I came really fucking close to becoming one of those women myself. Just for starters. REPLY * Shaun HJuly 10, 2009 at 9:47 PM # Okay. I don’t think it will be a good thing for society if a bunch of men are walking around, shamed into not looking at women, let alone dealing with them, while being unable to masturbate without any visual stimulation. Clearly I’m confused. What would you have men do, if not themselves? Shaun REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 10, 2009 at 10:48 PM # Nice false dilemma. How about men walk around and interact with women as if women were also human (i.e., not using them as masturbatory tools, not harassing them)? REPLY * Shaun HJuly 10, 2009 at 11:33 PM # And here I thought we were negotiating a separation. Pretend for a minute that it isn’t a false dilemma. You can either like men the way they are, or you can be content with them leaving you alone. Pretend that changing men is as off the table for you as changing women is off the table for men. Maybe I read more into your essay than was really there. I was under the impression that you hate men. I extrapolated that to mean that you want nothing to do with them. Shaun. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 10, 2009 at 11:55 PM # I hate masculinity. If you’d read what I wrote, you’d know that. I’m not advocating separatism, but rather a change in social paradigms that would make separatism unnecessary. As men are, I don’t like them. That’s why the ones I associate with tend not to fit this pattern of behavior. I choose to leave the rest be because I don’t want to deal with their bullshit. However, what would you recommend I do when one harasses me on the street? How do I leave him alone? If I could figure that out, I’d be stoked. What does the rape victim to to leave her rapist alone? And how is changing women off the table for men? For fuck’s sake, women’s entire lives are shaped by what men want out of them (beauty standards, porn, the expectation that women will defer to men’s opinions, etc.). * FaithJuly 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM # “What would you have men do, if not themselves?” Men do not need porn to masturbate. People have been masturbating without the aid of porn since people have been masturbating. It is quite possible to have a fulfilling masturbatory experience without any outside aid. I do it all the time. REPLY * Shaun HJuly 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM # What does your experience have to do with the male experience? REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 11, 2009 at 11:48 PM # Right, you guys are so unimaginative that you can’t masturbate without porn. Do you really want to admit that? I think, oh, every man that ever lived before the advent of the internet might beg to differ. * Shaun HJuly 12, 2009 at 12:46 AM # “Right, you guys are so unimaginative that you can’t masturbate without porn. Do you really want to admit that? I think, oh, every man that ever lived before the advent of the internet might beg to differ.” If you were right and I was wrong, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. * FaithJuly 12, 2009 at 2:01 PM # “If you were right and I was wrong, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.” That’s some utter brilliance right there. “What does your experience have to do with the male experience?” Men masturbate without porn all the time as well, Shaun. Men can not leave women alone -and- masturbate to porn too. As I have already stated, there are real women involved in porn. You can’t have it both ways. * ismeJuly 12, 2009 at 2:29 PM # “What does your experience have to do with the male experience?” That’s a fair question, actually. As much as I don’t personally believe that one gender cannot speak about the experiences of the other (at least to some extent), it does seem to be a position held by most people here. * FaithJuly 12, 2009 at 5:29 PM # “That’s a fair question, actually.” So what are you saying exactly? That men do need porn to masturbate? Are all the dudes who lack access to porn refraining from masturbation? How about all the men who masturbate all the time in the shower? Do they all have tv sets or laptops hanging in their bathtubs? The idea that anyone -needs- porn is completely and utterly absurd. There isn’t a soul on the face of the planet that -needs- porn of any variety. * ismeJuly 12, 2009 at 9:16 PM # No, I merely meant about the idea that one gender can’t understand the other. If that is so, then feminism is something of a lost cause, surely. * NanellaJuly 12, 2009 at 10:28 PM # Do you have any idea how insulting that statement is to female recovering porn addicts? You’ve got a lot of nerve presuming that visual sexual stimuli is not equally influential on the female sex drive. Sexual objectification of women is aculturally indoctrinated behavior; it’s just one aspect of male privilege. * Shaun HJuly 13, 2009 at 12:14 AM # “Do you have any idea how insulting that statement is to female recovering porn addicts? You’ve got a lot of nerve presuming that visual sexual stimuli is not equally influential on the female sex drive.” Again, if it was EQUALLY influential, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. “Sexual objectification of women is a culturally indoctrinated behavior; it’s just one aspect of male privilege.” I’m wondering how you reconcile this statement with the one that you made before it. What if the images were artificial, would you still have a problem even though there would be no ‘victim’? * Nine DeuceJuly 13, 2009 at 12:16 AM # I don’t know about her, but I would. The reason being that it has been repeatedly proven that viewing degrading porn lowers men’s sense of empathy toward women, makes them more likely to disrespect physical and emotional boundaries, and makes it more likely that they’ll disbelieve rape victims and fall for rape myths (e.g., a short skirt equals asking for it). So, whether the porn is made with real women or not, it affects real women’s lives. For fuck’s sake, man. How far do you have to go to defend your porn use? * TeresaAugust 16, 2009 at 11:50 PM # I think porn is objectification which carries very negative connotation directed completely at dehumanizing women. I think men are clueless when it comes to why most women are offended by porn, or by the use of porn some men choose as their way of creating sexual desire for their partner. That is just sad all the way around. * Nine DeuceAugust 16, 2009 at 11:58 PM # I don’t think men are clueless as to why women object to porn, I think they pretend to be in order to protect their “right” to use it. I’ve got a 9-part (and counting) series on porn here if you’re interested. * TeresaAugust 17, 2009 at 12:38 AM # I’m so interested and secretly agree with your comment regarding men pretending to be clueless. I think some men know exactly what they are doing and could care less as they don’t hold women in high regard in general, as it is. I think there are some younger men who are still forming wrinkles on their brains and “now” is the time to make these young men more aware, before they too have little regard for women and what we think and feel, in general. The “good ole boy” day’s need to end now. * NanellaJuly 13, 2009 at 1:18 AM # Again, if it was EQUALLY influential, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We’re having this discussion because of the deeply ingrained cultural mythos that surrounds male and female stereotypes. I’m wondering how you reconcile this statement with the one that you made before it. The capacity for visual stimulation is similar-to-indistinguishable in men and women, but the fact that pornography exists primarily to satiate the male sexual appetite has to do with patriarchal attitudes and values. In other words, the ability to become aroused by visual stimuli is innate, sexually exploiting others for the purpose of indulging that mechanism is a choice. I sometimes get the urge to slap someone upside the head when they’re acting like a moron, but I choose not to indulge that urge. I am a recovering pornography addict and I choose not to use porn. I’ve relapsed several times in the past two years, but I am getting better at staying on the proverbial wagon. You want to talk about porn and what it means to you and how unfathomable giving it up is, don’t think for one second that there aren’t women here who can’t empathize. I’ve got more to say on this on this subject but it’s time for me to call it a day. * NanellaJuly 14, 2009 at 1:17 AM # What if the images were artificial, would you still have a problem even though there would be no ‘victim’? It’s been my experience that rendered/graphic porn is even more rife with sexual violence. Really and truly, porn in general is highly problematic if you look beyond the ethical conundrum of using it. There’s the novelty factor, which means the softcore stuff will eventually cease to provide the same thrill and you’ll become desensitized to the depiction of misogynistic sex as you graduate to looking at more and more hardcore/taboo forms of porn to achieve the same “high”. In pornography, taboo = violent/degrading sex acts. That craving for novelty carries over into the bedroom. Ordinary sex doesn’t seem quite as fun or fulfilling after you’ve stuffed your head full of exotic sexual imagery. The extraordinary begins to seem mundane. Porn creates an artificial state of heightened arousal that people become dependent on very quickly. It becomes altogether too easy to use porn as an escape mechanism, or as a drug to attain a sexual “high”, whenever you’re feeling bored or lonely or sad, etc. Sometimes porn, itself, becomes too mundane and people need to up the ante, so to speak, they need to engage in more and more sexually thrilling activities to get the adrenalin and endorphins flowing, e.g., cybersex or webcamming. Then there’s the “porn aesthetic”. If you’re masturbating to images of physically ideal women, that ideal is also going to become mundane to you. The average female body isn’t going to have the same appeal. There is a tremendous diversity in female anatomy that is not at all accurately represented in pornography. I’m aware that some amateur, and a smaller % of professional, porn incorporates a variety of female body types, but the problem is that this is niche porn. The “big naturals” type of porn, or porn featuring women with large labia, e.g., is targeted exclusively at fetishists. You don’t get the opportunity to admire and appreciate the wide range of feminine beauty that exists unless you specifically go looking for it. From my own experience, once I stopped using porn and was no longer being constantly exposed to images of muscle-bound hunks as masturbation material, the male physical ideal became less appealing to me. I was able to better appreciate the physique of the average Joe. And since I’m an average Jane, the ability to find guys in my own league of attractiveness hot makes dating a far more rewarding experience. Quitting porn has actually been beneficial in a multitude of ways. The funny thing is, I never had the slightest interest in using it before curiosity got the better of me. I often use the analogy of smoking to explain how addictive porn can be. If you never pick up a cigarette, you never become dependent on nicotine, you never have to struggle with quitting. It’s the same with porn. If you’d never used it, you wouldn’t “need” it now. Once you’re hooked, you have two choices: suffer through withdrawl or deny that it’s a problem. Right now our society is at the same place in regards to porn that it used to be with smoking. Porn use is condoned as a healthy, natural, harmless activity by the general population. We’re a long ways away from universally acknowledging porn’s detrimental effects on individuals and society. * julianJuly 16, 2009 at 6:08 PM # I’m late to the party, but since Shaun rejected the anecdote of a woman masturbating without porn, I’ll provide my own. There are three men in this house who do not (and have not) watched porn. We still (miraculously!) find ways to whack it. Of course, we generally aren’t thinking about women when we’re doing it, so I suppose Shaun’s next comment will be that teh gayz are somehow biologically different from het dudes and therefore don’t require the same direct visual stimuli. Or maybe I just have this thing called a memory, and no problem calling one forth to “see”/relive an *actual sexual encounter* that I was *actually there for*. Crazy, right?! * DanaAugust 18, 2009 at 1:18 AM # You clearly have never read Fast Times At Ridgemont High. Unless Brad thought the toilet was sexually attractive, that is. OK, OK, given, while the book was based on true accounts, who knows how much was exaggerated and where. But damn. Are you seriously trying to tell me men have to be looking at something to ejaculate? * Shaun HJuly 18, 2009 at 7:22 AM # Julian, thanks for the input, please don’t put words into my mouth. Nanella, I think your responses hit the nail on the head, thanks for sharing. Shaun REPLY * TeresaAugust 17, 2009 at 12:32 AM # I’ve never needed porn to masturbate. As a woman, I use my minds eye and a battery powered tool. Fortunately for me, when my mind fails me, the tool does not. However, I am ashamed to admit, I’ve seen porn and it did have a sexual stimulus affect on my mind. How crappy is that to know!!! REPLY o ismeJuly 8, 2009 at 9:01 PM # Ah, but not everyone is oppressed to the same amount. And, as ND says, it’s handy to have someone further down the ladder to kick. A particularly repellant example is the whole “gangsta” ideal, of being oppressed by The Man and how much it sucks, and oppressing women (using less than flattering terms) and how much fun it is. In between glorifying senseless violence and drug dealer and so on. REPLY * Shaun HJuly 9, 2009 at 4:57 AM # I’ve never been involved nor do I have any firsthand knowledge of the ‘gangsta’ ideal. All I know about it, I’ve learned from popular culture and then only as background noise because I’ve always found it repellent. So I can’t really speak to that with any semblance of intelligence. Shaun REPLY o harmonyJuly 24, 2009 at 4:48 PM # quoting shaun: “Almost as many men as women are oppressed by the ruling elites.” ok, true. and… so what? it’s pretty clear the point you’re really trying to make is “and therefore sexism isn’t really a problem, just classism.” this is just stupid. i’m not saying you’re an overall stupid person, you may be quite smart in other ways, but this particular opinion is so fucking stupid it’s unbearable. both classism and sexism are problems. and don’t forget that many women and girls are oppressed on grounds of both sex and class (among other things!). do you think impoverished females have it easier than, or equally hard as, impoverished males? do you think impoverished males can’t and don’t beat, harass, rape, etc. impoverished females? they can also do these things to females of any class (i’m from a middle class background and was abused by my lower class ex-boyfriend — we lived together in a $200/month concrete basement with a flea infested mattress on the ground, so i mean for real lower class — who was also an ex-pimp and abused various lower class women by pimping them and beating them). and yeah, females can use their class privilege to oppress or degrade lower class males, but this doesn’t at all cancel out the fact that sexism, patriarchy, and misogyny are huge fucking problems. also, take a guess who these ruling elites are, virtually 100% of them: MEN! do you honestly not get all this? it seems like the simplest thing on earth to understand. REPLY 23. Orlando CJuly 8, 2009 at 9:27 PM # You know, I hate men too. Everyone who’s ever assaulted me, or tried to rape me, has been male. In very round numbers, everyone whose abuse of political power has really chilled me to the bone has been male. I don’t know that this isn’t because women simply haven’t had a chance. I’m inclined to think that a lot of this just throws down to: who has the power. When I’ve had interactions with women who had a lot of power, in whatever little context the patriarchy allowed them to, they were usually assholes, too. But if you showed me the magic multivariate regression table from God, and it turns out men are inherently more likely to be jerks, I wouldn’t be altogether surprised. And there are other people I hate. I hate me some Republicans. I hate liberals, in a different way. I hate raisins, and everyone involved in the production of raisins. I hate American Idol. I hate people who say “in my humble opinion” and “I don’t have all the answers.” But I try not to get off on hating people, at least not in public. I understand the appeal. It soothes the ego. It makes the struggle less painful. It creates camaraderie; an inside joke; a shared straw man for entertainment. Fine. And hatred can be varnished up with a nice coat of irony, very modern, so it doesn’t need to be justified in any way. But as a public act, as a pronouncement, hatred is always going to be regressive. It is never actually going to be a useful part of any struggle I’m interested in. REPLY o Jay BlackJuly 9, 2009 at 1:58 PM # Very insightful. Thank you for your statement. REPLY o syndicalist702July 9, 2009 at 9:56 PM # Orlando – You make a good point, homie, but I long ago surmised that 9-2 likes to vent. This is her blog – her safe place. We may or may not choose to handle things in the same way she does, but the fact that she does so is her prerogative. Now, I don’t doubt for a second that entering her ideas in a public forum comes with, at least in part, the intention of connecting with other people somehow (I ain’t 9-2, so I couldn’t begin to tell you). At the same time, I feel like everyone has a reason for expressing themselves the way they do – even if we wouldn’t go about things the same way. As long as 9-2 ain’t expressing herself with a rifles and bombs, I figure how she handles her business is none of ours. I’ll agree with you though. Hate is as degrading to the hater as it is to the one being hated. One thing’s for sure. I’ve never got anywhere trying to influence and persuade my friends and coworkers to be fairer to women using 9-2’s style, so I’ve surmised that that style isn’t for me to use. I can see how 9-2’s writing can put people off, but if you know how shit works and can see around your privilege, it won’t bother you. Also, if you can see that 9-2 don’t owe any of us anything, you won’t have a problem. The only people coming up in here to start a flame war with folks are people who are like my friends and coworkers I was talking about – they only know what they want to about feminism, rather than what it’s really about. They need to read something and STFU. They need to stop buying all the misinformation that can be found in rags like Maxim. I’m off my soapbox, Deuce. Thanks. I know you don’t need me speaking for you. REPLY * Orlando CJuly 10, 2009 at 11:29 AM # S702, I keep seeing this word “safe space” on blogs, and I’m not at all sure what it means. I’ve read 9/2’s editorial policy, which welcomes civil criticism. In contrast, many of the articles on the blog, including this one, seem designed as provocations, and 9/2 is liberal about allowing commenters to post further provocations. So I am a little taken aback when I say “maybe X is not a great tactic” and your response is to tell me “I should’t have problem” or “be bothered” and that this is a safe space. It sounds a great deal like what you’re saying is that I shouldn’t post here in a way that’s critical of 9/2’s thesis. Even if, as you suggest, I’m saying something that you agree with. Is that what a safe space means, these days? A place where no one asks questions? And…on a different note…exactly what sort of privilege do I have vis-a- vis 9/2 in this forum? REPLY 24. JennJuly 10, 2009 at 8:39 AM # Sign me up for some fuckin’ man-haterade. Do you know how intensely happy it makes me to see straight feminists that don’t wax poetics over their love of cock and maleness? There’s a disgusting unexamined amount of heterosexual priviledge in the ability of the straight cock-sucking fun- feminist to brush off accusations of man-hating. See, the thing is, I really can’t field those discussions of not hating men. Even if I liked men, which I don’t, nobody would believe me. Queer women are automatically shuffled off the good feminist board as soon as they express that they kiss girls, like it, and can do so–would rather do so– without the attention, permission, or enjoyment of the Cock In The Room. My life would improve immensely and immediately if every single man on the planet suddenly dropped dead. Even the men that, defying their horrendous upbringing in masculine woman-hatin’, I love. That’s a horrible thing to say, and I admit it. It’s really just earth-shattering to say that a little under half the population of your species is so twisted and poisoned by their own stupidity, greed, and love of violence that the other half of the species would lead better lives if they were not there. Honestly, does anyone really want to say that about humanity? It’s not like I take sick pleasure in the fact that the elimination of billions of people would make the existence of other billions of people bearable and finally free from fear, oppression, and hate. As I learn more about the people on this lump of dirt floating in a vacuum, I find that fully half of humanity has done shit in their lives that really truly deserves a banishment to some hell or a locked cell. And this is just taken as normal. Part of “growing up”, if you’re a dude, is treating women like shit. It’s stalking them, harassing them, raping them, assaulting them, insulting them, terrorizing them, and then clapping your buddies on the back when they do the same. I can’t think of a single man, off the top of my head–aside from a few I know who are painfully shy, disabled and thus excluded from woman hatin’, or flamming gay–who hasn’t done something really horrible to women. Several women. Often, repeatedly, and without shame. Really, the world would be a better place without (heterosexual) men. I hate men, as a group, and find it really fucking funny that my dislike of cock and previous painful nonconsensual encounters with men makes my hatred of them lessrational. Shit, when you’re beaten and tired and you don’t even have things like federal rights and the ability to walk to street at night by yourself, not hating men is irrational. Hate men? Of course I hate fucking men. What other option do I have unless I’m down with some fucking spectacular victim-blaming? REPLY o JennJuly 11, 2009 at 4:50 AM # Haha. Cut and paste fail. Those are my notes on sushi recipes I was checking out. Sorry for that 9-2. REPLY * Nine DeuceJuly 11, 2009 at 4:57 AM # Fixed. I was wondering if that was some code I just didn’t get. REPLY 25. RachaelJuly 11, 2009 at 1:44 AM # I love your writing. I really do. Ever since I got involved with feminism, I’ve been worried about my younger brother (age 20) and what impact this society will have on him. I wonder if he really understands that having sex with a drunk woman is rape. I wonder if he has enough respect for women to not watch stuff like Max Hardcore pornography. I wonder if, should he get a woman pregnant, he will own up to the responsibility that comes with being a father. I occasionally point things out to him that might make him more aware, such as a book I was reading where the main character spoke condescendingly to an abuse victim and then blamed her after her jealous husband came to beat him up. I give him “mini-lectures” on feminism because I know that just handing him a book by Andrea Dworkin will just make him think I’m crazy. I don’t want him to be the kind of man that’s hated by feminists. I want him to respect women and treat them as equals. This blog and others inspire me not to give up. As his sister (age 23), there’s not a whole lot I can do, because his friends and society will have a much greater impact. But I’m going to keep trying. REPLY o harmonyJuly 24, 2009 at 4:33 PM # keep trying, rachael! my (male) friend/lover of 2 and 1/2 years grew up under the influence of a feminist older sister and he has often told me he wouldn’t be who he is if it hadn’t been for her. i’m so grateful to her! he might be a pretty shitty guy otherwise (in which case i simply wouldn’t be with him). REPLY 26. Pharaoh KattJuly 11, 2009 at 4:29 AM # There’s an MRA who hangs around Forest Chase (in my city) with a big sign on him saying “Stop Discrimination Against Men!”. What he doesn’t realise is that all his arguments are just sexist stereotypes (he actually said women don’t enjoy sex!). As with that guy on the plane, I think the world would be better off without certain people. I hate masculinity. If you’d read what I wrote, you’d know that. I’m not advocating separatism, but rather a change in social paradigms that would make separatism unnecessary. As men are, I don’t like them. This made a lot of sense. I agree so much! REPLY o berrybladeJuly 13, 2009 at 5:16 AM # Hahha, PERTH’d on the internet. I thought they got rid of that guy? And the speakers steps in general? Whatever the case, I’ve come close to bottling that waste of oxygen a couple of times, but I bet some of the gogans there would have done it anyway. If they haven’t nuked Forrest Chase, it’s well past-due. And in true typical Perth fashion I see you know someone I know. REPLY 27. ArgiveJuly 12, 2009 at 5:14 PM # ND’s excellent rant reminded me of an essay, written back in 2003 by a man named Kim du Toit, entitled “The Pussification Of The Western Male.” I am not sure how many people here have read this nonsense, but if you haven’t, I strongly recommend it. It is wonderful unintentional comedy, and provides an interesting window into sexist masculine culture. http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/essays/41/ This essay caused quite a stir back when it was released. Du Toit was naive enough to publish it under his real name, which completely derailed his career. Some gem quotes: “There was a time when men put their signatures to a document, knowing full well that this single act would result in their execution if captured, and in the forfeiture of their property to the State. Their wives and children would be turned out by the soldiers, and their farms and businesses most probably given to someone who didn’t sign the document.” Love the nostalgia for a time period that no reasonable person wants to return to. “But in the twentieth century, women became more and more involved in the body politic, and in industry, and in the media—and mostly, this has not been a good thing.” At least he’s honest. “But most of all, I do this website because I love being a man. Amongst other things, I talk about guns, self-defense, politics, beautiful women, sports, warfare, hunting, and power tools—all the things that being a man entails. All this stuff gives me pleasure.” You know what, Mr. du Toit? I am a man. And I will say this: Fuck you. Stop telling me what being a man entails. You are part of the problem. Pull your head out of your ass. “Well, I’m not going to quit. Fuck that. One of the characteristics of the non-pussified man (and this should strike fear into the hearts of women and girly-men everywhere) is that he never quits just because the odds seem overwhelming. Omaha Beach, guys.” I am positively quaking in my Birkenstocks. “Women, even liberal women, swooned over George Bush in a naval aviator’s uniform. Donald Trump still gets access to some of the most beautiful pussy available, despite looking like a medieval gargoyle. Donald Rumsfeld, if he wanted to, could fuck 90% of all women over 50 if he wanted to, and a goodly portion of younger ones too.” There are no words for how indescribably wrong this passage is. REPLY o Nine DeuceJuly 12, 2009 at 5:50 PM # That guy’s hilarious. I bet he’s an amateur MMA fighter. REPLY * syndicalist702July 13, 2009 at 9:49 PM # Kim Du Toit is a psychotic gun-toting fascist who thinks he’s gawd’s gift to the earth. Total douchebag. REPLY o harmonyJuly 25, 2009 at 6:33 AM # lol! thanks, argive, for sharing this treasure. REPLY 28. ValJuly 14, 2009 at 1:16 AM # Hello All- I am new here. Love your stuff! The reason I hate men is because they compartmentalize. I am part mortified and part jealous of that ability. Do I want to be able to commit genocide? NO. Do I want to be able to turn off my emotions like a light switch? YES. Is this nature VS nurture? I don’t know. All I know is that when I read the paper, it’s men that do most of the damage. I don’t want to be like that, but it would be nice to just flip a switch in my brain and not remember every gory detail of some horrible crime I’ve read about or experienced. Men just seem to be able to walk between the raindrops in that regard. Nice. Fuckers! -V REPLY o harmonyJuly 25, 2009 at 7:03 AM # i’m actually very much like that (compartmentalized, often very unemotional). but compassion, ethics, and activism are still among the most important things in my life. i care about people and animals (am a vegan). you can still care, be good to others, etc., even if you can easily flip a switch in your brain and forget the gory details of a crime, etc. actually, people who look into brain differences between males and females (which i’m confident are mostly if not totally caused by nurture, not nature), it is males who are more emotional. surprise! REPLY 29. harmonyJuly 14, 2009 at 6:47 AM # i know alotta men who hate men. well, not people with penises, but macho masculine men, like the guys at this airport. men who hate masculinity usually make great friends. “Women have to deal with enforced femininity, and while a lot of the behaviors femininity entails do indeed suck, they aren’t chosen as freely as men’s behaviors are. ” i’d really like it if you could explain this further in a future post for this series. REPLY o Shaun HJuly 18, 2009 at 7:26 AM # That’s kinda my point. But it’s lost on the haters. The men that also hate men happen to be invisible to the haters. What’s truly fucked up is that the Alpha-males could not give two shits about the issue. Then we are told that it’s our responsibility as a gender to reign in the most macho among us. If that were possible, it would have been done before those kids got out of middle school. Shaun REPLY * NanellaJuly 21, 2009 at 5:20 AM # Shaun, you are not, sorry to say, exempt from the pool of men being hated on here. You’ve taken one anecdote about a man who outwardly embodies everything wrong with masculinity and sanctimoniously separated yourself into an imaginary opposing group of good guys (or “beta males”) who are miraculously free of patriarchal influence. You were raised in a patriarchal society, you haven’t escaped the conditioning (barging onto a feminist blog to bleat about how you’ve been mistreated TOO is pretty damn “alpha male” in its self-important disregard for the subject at hand). (And then there’s your championing of critically unexamined and heinously sexist male/female stereotypes. Alpha males, and alpha male wannabes, are alllll about the stereotypes, Shaun. They eat them for breakfast with their testosterone-and-egg yolk power shakes.) Here’s a news flash: There is no alpha male/beta male social dichotomy (except in the minds of narcissistic asshole-dripping-with-money-and- hawt-babes wannabes). There are varying degrees of macho jerkness, with a very small portion of the male population being enlightened enough to recognize and reject their own patriarchal conditioning. You’re not quite there yet — not even close — but if you continue educating yourself and make an honest effort to rip the patriarchy out by the roots, you’ll get there eventually. You can start by checking your privilege:http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ Good luck (I seriously mean that). REPLY * Shaun HAugust 24, 2009 at 11:58 PM # “Shaun, you are not, sorry to say, exempt from the pool of men being hated on here. You’ve taken one anecdote about a man who outwardly embodies everything wrong with masculinity and sanctimoniously separated yourself into an imaginary opposing group of good guys (or “beta males”) who are miraculously free of patriarchal influence. You were raised in a patriarchal society, you haven’t escaped the conditioning (barging onto a feminist blog to bleat about how you’ve been mistreated TOO is pretty damn “alpha male” in its self-important disregard for the subject at hand). (And then there’s your championing of critically unexamined and heinously sexist male/female stereotypes. Alpha males, and alpha male wannabes, are alllll about the stereotypes, Shaun. They eat them for breakfast with their testosterone-and-egg yolk power shakes.)” Oh I don’t know about that. I was raised by women. Women that had a very similar world-view as that which is prevalent on this blog. REPLY * BecstarAugust 25, 2009 at 3:44 AM # What the hell is it today with men claiming they can’t possibly have been conditioned by the patriarchy because they were raised by/around women? One woman, or even several, are not going to be able to cancel out every aspect of society that reinforces the patriarchy (porn, advertising, business, education…the list goes on). REPLY * JamesAugust 25, 2009 at 3:38 PM # Your problem, Becstar, is that you’re taking a structuralist model (the Patriarchy) & then trying to cram us into it. Believe it or not, that’s a kind of treatment that people object to. You don’t know anything about our upbringing, you are simply presuming things. It isn’t appreciated, please tryasking how we were raised. Who knows, perhaps your model could feature a flaw. REPLY * BecstarAugust 25, 2009 at 11:15 PM # You can’t honestly be that thick – did you actually read what I wrote? I’m not the one forcing you into the patriarchy, the patriarchy already exists everywhere and simply by being alive people are a part of it. It doesn’t matter how you were raised, as long as you have been out in the world you have been influenced by the patriarchy and gained from the privilege that it gives men. Being raised a feminist woman, no matter how radical, does not change that, and quite frankly every single time you post you are proving your ignorance as to how power structures actually work. REPLY * JamesAugust 26, 2009 at 3:00 AM # You can’t honestly be that thick – did you actually read what I wrote? Yes, although I doubt you read much of what I did. I’m not the one forcing you into the patriarchy, the patriarchy already exists everywhere and simply by being alive people are a part of it. The Patriarchy was a “model” designed to help us understand the world by a thinker who should have stuck to selling soap. It doesn’t matter how you were raised, as long as you have been out in the world you have been influenced by the patriarchy and gained from the privilege that it gives men. So you know more about my upbringing than I do. Do you ever stop to think that you might be presumptuous instead of well informed? Being raised a feminist woman, no matter how radical, does not change that, and quite frankly every single time you post you are proving your ignorance as to how power structures actually work. I’m not going to apologise for my refusal to accept your lovely structuralist model. At some point you’re going to have to realise that they don’t work, have never worked & never will work as a means for understanding the totality of human existence. Which is sort of the problem I have with the gender binary, really: you can set down a normative rule & expect it to work. I’m increasingly coming to realise that you’re doing much the same, just with the parameters set a little differently. REPLY * BecstarAugust 26, 2009 at 3:57 AM # I am so sick of poststructualists who think they are so clever and alternative for following Foucault and company. You do realise that poststructuralism itself is inherently a metanarrative of its very own don’t you? It can never work because that is its inherent flaw – you cannot have a theory that espouses that all theory is bad without being an enormous hypocrite. REPLY * JamesAugust 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM # Unless you or anyone else was raised in a basement with no interaction with the outside world, it is irrelevant as to who raised you or how. No, it is not. Certain figures are far more influential than others in people’s development. If some over-arching “society as a whole” was as over-bearing as you seem to think it is then cultures would be incapable of change. We were all raised in a heavily patriarchal society. There is no getting around that fact. I think that’s a very reductionistic way of approaching the world. By coming in contact with that patriarchal society, we have all absorbed the messages of this society to one degree or another. Do you watch TV? Do you – or have you ever – attended school? Do you have a job where you interact with other people? Have you ever used porn? Do you perhaps go to church or follow any male-dominated religion? If you’ve done any of these things, you have been exposed to patriarchal society. Yes, & at many stages staged a systematic rejection of its claims. I’ve been exposed to all sorts of ideas in my time, it’s vital to distinguish between exposure & acceptance. In short, unless you were raised in a hole in the ground, you have come in contact with patriarchal programming. Unless you are some super-human (and from reading your comments, I’m guessing you’re not), you have been conditioned by that programming to some degree or another. Each and every one of us has. The only question for any of us is how much we have been affected and in what ways have we been affected. No, I don’t think I’ve been programmed. That suggests some guiding sentience was giving me instructions, which isn’t how culture works. I am so sick of poststructualists who think they are so clever and alternative for following Foucault and company. This isn’t about me, & it most certainly isn’t about Foucault. It’s about your attempt to rely upon models to understand humanity, & how that’s wrong. You do realise that poststructuralism itself is inherently a metanarrative of its very own don’t you? I have never called myself a post-structuralist. It can never work because that is its inherent flaw – you cannot have a theory that espouses that all theory is bad without being an enormous hypocrite. “No universal laws” is a universal law, etc, etc. Yes, I know. I still don’t like structuralism. * Valerie MAugust 26, 2009 at 8:15 PM # Gawd James, you just keep going from feminist blog to feminist blog making the same crappy arguments no matter how many times we debunk, answer, and generally shoot them down. Aren’t you bored yet? We are. REPLY * JamesAugust 26, 2009 at 8:54 PM # One of my main arguments is that feminists rely too much on ad hominems. :P * MegNovember 1, 2009 at 5:19 AM # Are you implying that Valerie’s post is an ad hominem? ‘Cause it’s not. Saying “James is boring because his arguments are wrong”, which is what Valerie said, is entirely different from saying “James’ arguments are wrong because he is boring”, which would be an ad hominem. Implication arrows: the order matters! * FaithAugust 26, 2009 at 2:07 PM # “It isn’t appreciated, please try asking how we were raised.” Unless you or anyone else was raised in a basement with no interaction with the outside world, it is irrelevant as to who raised you or how. We were all raised in a heavily patriarchal society. There is no getting around that fact. By coming in contact with that patriarchal society, we have all absorbed the messages of this society to one degree or another. Do you watch TV? Do you – or have you ever – attended school? Do you have a job where you interact with other people? Have you ever used porn? Do you perhaps go to church or follow any male-dominated religion? If you’ve done any of these things, you have been exposed to patriarchal society. In short, unless you were raised in a hole in the ground, you have come in contact with patriarchal programming. Unless you are some super-human (and from reading your comments, I’m guessing you’re not), you have been conditioned by that programming to some degree or another. Each and every one of us has. The only question for any of us is how much we have been affected and in what ways have we been affected. REPLY * FaithAugust 26, 2009 at 8:13 PM # “No, it is not. Certain figures are far more influential than others in people’s development.” James, Saying that it was irrelevant was a poor choice of phrasing. What I meant by that is simply that the people who raise us are not the only ones who have an effect on us and on our conditioning. I stand quite firmly by everything else that I said. REPLY * SandyAugust 8, 2014 at 11:41 AM # If he is not free of patriarchal influence then neither are you. Are you willing to list the faults in your character that are a result of patriarchal conditioning that you have no doubt received. Have you ripped the patriarchy out of the roots of your own self? REPLY * harmonyJuly 25, 2009 at 6:48 AM # yes, to help reign in those hyper-macho men … and the hypo-macho men, too. it seems like you think this is an unfair expectation. do you? and why? we’re not saying it’s easy. the reason why those uber-jerks rule in middle school is cuz almost all the other guys look up to them. there’s the few that get picked on, put the majority do not get picked on … the fear of getting picked on, mixed with the twisted admiration for them, keeps them in line… kissing their ass. but these uber-jerks would be nothing without the majority of guys patting them on the back and clamoring to be buddies — and also immitating them, and sometimes being mini-jerks. and the same goes at any other age, pretty much… REPLY o harmonyJuly 25, 2009 at 6:55 AM # “Women have to deal with enforced femininity, and while a lot of the behaviors femininity entails do indeed suck, they aren’t chosen as freely as men’s behaviors are. ” i do hope you get more into this in a future blog entry. this is something i don’t currently agree with but i want to see where you’re coming from on it. the way i see it, gender socialization is more rigidly and brutally enforced for males than for females. (i’m talking here about a contemporary “western” societal context.) however, that masculine gender socialization that is enforced on boys soon cycles back to fuck women up real bad. REPLY 30. chuckJuly 15, 2009 at 12:30 AM # I’m a man and I’ve nothing in common with hardly anyone, I guess cause I am fucked/stranded in the middle of nowhere and actively avoid all the ignorant assholes (of both sexes) around me I find this post and responses alarming. But I’m not surprised just further bummed out, I wish a plague would kill off most of the population or the earth flood and flip on its axis and drown everyone. – Chuck, a very masculine loner REPLY 31. AnonymanJuly 18, 2009 at 2:07 AM # I’m not going to try to defend men at all to anyone. You make a lot of good points on just about everything you’ve said. But it is very sad to see, with all the bullshit, hatred and murderous fucktards in the world, another living soul with hatred towards anyone in their heart. But I must admit as a man, that 90% of the men on this planet are dipshits, probably myself included… PEACE REPLY o NanellaJuly 21, 2009 at 5:28 AM # Admitting your dipshitedness is the first step. Kudos. REPLY o harmonyJuly 25, 2009 at 6:27 AM # lol @ anonyman’s comment. wow, i like this guy. REPLY o harmonyJuly 25, 2009 at 6:56 AM # omg, click on anonyman’s website too (by clicking on his name). a self- esteem booster that was much needed on my end :) REPLY * MegNovember 1, 2009 at 5:23 AM # Judging from the URL, I expected a puppy’s face followed by some more text: “you are! Yes, you are! Good boy! Who’s a good boy, you are yes you are!” I don’t know whether I’m disappointed or not. REPLY 32. SatsumaJuly 18, 2009 at 11:21 PM # Good stuff women. Keep up the good male hating commentary! Just what I needed for a boost on a fine summer day. I loved the jerk in the airport story. REPLY 33. m AndreaJuly 19, 2009 at 9:39 PM # You might enjoy my all time favorite quote, which is by TheBewilderness: This is a cheap transparent trick to change the subject from the behavior of men, to the feelings of women. Every time you hear the term hate used in this fashion it is always a cheapass way to change the subject. Serious people do not like to be manipulated in the style of political operatives. Men rape women. Why do you hate men. Porn hurts women. Why do you hate sex. Do you see the shift from the behavior of the perp to the feelings of the victim? You can see it any time you like on the cable news networks, where that crap passes for discussion. It does not pass here. END quote. Isn’t that fabulous? She thinks it sounds too rude. Of course I love it. lol Analyzing men as a class becomes hating men. Wanting to end the oppression of females becomes hating men. Being angry at men because they oppress women becomes hating men for no reason. Saying men as a class oppress those they claim to love becomes hating some random reader’s husband and gosh she is personally offended. REPLY o JamesAugust 3, 2009 at 11:40 AM # Well in this instance ND encounters a man, dislikes his behaviour, then extrapolates without providing any evidence for her assertion that “it’s not as if it’s not representative of the way the average male American behaves”. Now leaving aside the fact that what she might hate is America, rather than men, this still constitutes the standard bigot’s approach to writing: attack a single person effectively, then smear your success out onto everyone who is somehow linked to them. Turn a single loathsome example into an ambassador. I’ve seen it done dozens of time by many, many idiots & I am genuinely disappointed to see it done here. Perhaps this is some kind of parody post? Regardless, it’s a damn shame. We aren’t going to get anywhere with this sort of prejudice reinforcing tripe. REPLY * Nine DeuceAugust 3, 2009 at 11:37 PM # I expect you to read what I said, James. This guy is an example of our culture’s idea of masculinity, and I stated quite plainly that it’s masculinity, not men specifically, that I hate. For someone who hates the gender binary so much, you should have picked that up, seeing as I said it, like, five times. REPLY * JamesAugust 4, 2009 at 12:05 AM # …Before saying you hated “Maleness”. Now it’s perfectly possible that I’m getting myself worked up into a lather over semantics here, but isn’t maleness supposed to refer to a penis & masculinity to a cultural construct? REPLY * Nine DeuceAugust 4, 2009 at 2:20 AM # No, it refers to masculinity as it is socially defined. Now please, I’m on vacation. I’ll finish this series when I’m back. REPLY * JamesAugust 4, 2009 at 2:34 AM # Enjoy yourself. REPLY 34. Grace MargaretJuly 23, 2009 at 6:46 PM # If more men were this cool, the world would be a better place. I’m sure he’s going to get shit for writing this: Losing my religion for equality Jimmy Carter July 15, 2009 Women and girls have been discriminated against for too long in a twisted interpretation of the word of God. I HAVE been a practising Christian all my life and a deacon and Bible teacher for many years. My faith is a source of strength and comfort to me, as religious beliefs are to hundreds of millions of people around the world. So my decision to sever my ties with the Southern Baptist Convention, after six decades, was painful and difficult. It was, however, an unavoidable decision when the convention’s leaders, quoting a few carefully selected Bible verses and claiming that Eve was created second to Adam and was responsible for original sin, ordained that women must be “subservient” to their husbands and prohibited from serving as deacons, pastors or chaplains in the military service. This view that women are somehow inferior to men is not restricted to one religion or belief. Women are prevented from playing a full and equal role in many faiths. Nor, tragically, does its influence stop at the walls of the church, mosque, synagogue or temple. This discrimination, unjustifiably attributed to a Higher Authority, has provided a reason or excuse for the deprivation of women’s equal rights across the world for centuries. At its most repugnant, the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes of men excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation and national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it also costs many millions of girls and women control over their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny them fair access to education, health, employment and influence within their own communities. The impact of these religious beliefs touches every aspect of our lives. They help explain why in many countries boys are educated before girls; why girls are told when and whom they must marry; and why many face enormous and unacceptable risks in pregnancy and childbirth because their basic health needs are not met. In some Islamic nations, women are restricted in their movements, punished for permitting the exposure of an arm or ankle, deprived of education, prohibited from driving a car or competing with men for a job. If a woman is raped, she is often most severely punished as the guilty party in the crime. The same discriminatory thinking lies behind the continuing gender gap in pay and why there are still so few women in office in the West. The root of this prejudice lies deep in our histories, but its impact is felt every day. It is not women and girls alone who suffer. It damages all of us. The evidence shows that investing in women and girls delivers major benefits for society. An educated woman has healthier children. She is more likely to send them to school. She earns more and invests what she earns in her family. It is simply self-defeating for any community to discriminate against half its population. We need to challenge these self-serving and outdated attitudes and practices – as we are seeing in Iran where women are at the forefront of the battle for democracy and freedom. I understand, however, why many political leaders can be reluctant about stepping into this minefield. Religion, and tradition, are powerful and sensitive areas to challenge. But my fellow Elders and I, who come from many faiths and backgrounds, no longer need to worry about winning votes or avoiding controversy – and we are deeply committed to challenging injustice wherever we see it. The Elders are an independent group of eminent global leaders, brought together by former South African president Nelson Mandela, who offer their influence and experience to support peace building, help address major causes of human suffering and promote the shared interests of humanity. We have decided to draw particular attention to the responsibility of religious and traditional leaders in ensuring equality and human rights and have recently published a statement that declares: “The justification of discrimination against women and girls on grounds of religion or tradition, as if it were prescribed by a Higher Authority, is unacceptable.” We are calling on all leaders to challenge and change the harmful teachings and practices, no matter how ingrained, which justify discrimination against women. We ask, in particular, that leaders of all religions have the courage to acknowledge and emphasise the positive messages of dignity and equality that all the world’s major faiths share. The carefully selected verses found in the Holy Scriptures to justify the superiority of men owe more to time and place – and the determination of male leaders to hold onto their influence – than eternal truths. Similar biblical excerpts could be found to support the approval of slavery and the timid acquiescence to oppressive rulers. I am also familiar with vivid descriptions in the same Scriptures in which women are revered as pre-eminent leaders. During the years of the early Christian church women served as deacons, priests, bishops, apostles, teachers and prophets. It wasn’t until the fourth century that dominant Christian leaders, all men, twisted and distorted Holy Scriptures to perpetuate their ascendant positions within the religious hierarchy. The truth is that male religious leaders have had – and still have – an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions – all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views. OBSERVER Jimmy Carter was president of the United States from 1977 to 1981. REPLY 35. TurelAugust 2, 2009 at 7:52 AM # :( I’m sad now….apparently I’m an ass because I’m male. T.T and here I thought we were all about equality for everyone. REPLY 36. JamesAugust 3, 2009 at 11:51 AM # & sorry for the excessive swearing, that wasn’t productive. Wasn’t a “put you in your place” thing, it was a knee-jerk anti-bigot response thing. REPLY o Nine DeuceAugust 3, 2009 at 11:38 PM # I’m not going to be called a bigot. It’s perfectly acceptable for someone to dislike the generalized behaviors of a group of oppressive people. Bigotry is groundless. There’s a difference. REPLY * JamesAugust 4, 2009 at 12:10 AM # Like any bigot is going to call their own hate-group a groundless source of opprobrium. You’ve used anecdotal data to stage a generalised extrapolation. That’s a classic bigot technique & it is deeplyunimpressive. I’m not going to start liken you to a National Socialist or a Republican or anything inflammatory like that, but I really think that this approach is inadvisable. If you are going to attack a section of the population this sizable (& yes, I’d like a better world, but the one we’re dealing with has close to 100% of the c. 50% who are born male as some sort of masculine) then you should come packing data. Not mere prejudice. It’s risky territory, not “I met this complete asshole in the airport” stuff. REPLY * Nine DeuceAugust 4, 2009 at 2:19 AM # It was an anecdote meant to illustrate several of the main points of the following posts. This is a series, and I’ll thank you not to tell me how to start it off or continue it. Please, seriously, wait until I’ve laid out my case before you tell me I’ve done it improperly. REPLY * TurelOctober 8, 2009 at 6:57 AM # posting this because i feel my post may have helped contribute to the name calling. o-o..my comment was made more as a joke, and to let off a little personal steam. kinda felt like my gender was being attacked but it’s cool. ^_^ everyone has opinions to express, and i respect people who tell it like they see it rather than sugar coating it. so yes, 9-2 isn’t a biggot. she just has negative personal views based on past experiances. and also sorry that i make crappy jokes. if my previous comment had no effect then disregard this post. REPLY 37. TeresaAugust 10, 2009 at 3:10 PM # It is truly a sad reality when in todays world women must endure the splatter of bullshit that spews forth so effortlessly from “The Man” as well as his corporate female/she-male counterpart, “The Wanna-Be Man”. Yes, I am referring to the corporate business woman female counter-part to “The Man”; “The Wanna-Be Man”. I was raised to be a team player and to be loyal to the team captain, or leader of whatever team I am associated, yet, I find more and more that I am quite often the only female “team player” who is playing by the rules and whose values reflect loyalty, integrity and a desire to be successful while at the same time, helping to make my fellow teammates and team leader shine more brightly in the eyes of “The Man” who employs our professional service. I am of the opinion most women are still working tirelessly at defining their roles in todays world. Sadly, just as in the case of “The Man’s” actions, we must equally endure the “counter female” who in support of her male counter part, chooses to stand in support of their male leader when decisions are made which are strategic in streamlining the “type” of people who will be chosen for success in “The Man’s” world of business and the team for which he is playing alongside. These female counter- parts seem to rear their ugly bestial faces in times when women most need to stand strong beside each other in support of our united struggle to be accepted on our own terms for who we are as human beings capable to performing on the same level as any male. Yet, it is other females who continuously seem to be the greatest perpetuator’s in supporting the actions, spoken or otherwise, of “The Man” in the battle to keep women in a place where we will be of no threat to their male dominated roles, fragile egos, selfishness, and greed of unimaginable heights. As for “The Wanna-Be Man”, who seems to think they’re being “team players” when they support their business leaders, ” this very support of “The Man’s” actions merely serves to perpetuate the condemnation of females to subservient positions in the corporate world, which will, once again, need to be overcome. Well, I say to all of you “Wanna-Be Men” out there who are fucking your own kind; GET A FUCKING CLUE! *This current generation of corporate business women who are trying so desperately to “fit in” with “The Man”; believe the way it was for them is the way it’s got to be for all females who wish to play a more productive role in the world of business today and in the future. Well, this is just not true. Too many women strive to attain more than what they are allowed to become in this still male dominated world. The majority of women are allowed charity leadership roles from their business leader,”The Man”. I tell you now, it will not be until this whole generation of business men, and women, have lain down and died will the weight of their oppression be off our backs! Sadly, women are quite often the worst enemy of women. “The Man” is merely the puppet master sending clear messages, which serve to hold women back from too much advancement in the business world as well as in life for some. Women are continuously redefining their vision of what role they will play in their own futures. Now is the time for women to stand together sharing in a united goal with personal and professional values are in alignment by all, or this struggle will continue to serve as a distraction for human kind, preventing us all from focusing on what matters most; quality and balance of life for all on our living planet earth. *I twisted a memorable quote from the movie, Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner, which I felt suited the nature of what I most wanted to communicate, though a bit on the dramatic side, if I do say so myself. Teresa REPLY 38. AliAugust 15, 2009 at 6:58 AM # Hi there, I found your site by googling “I hate men”…I was just having one of those days where I just said.. argh I can’t stand men….and I am so glad I found you! I am totally straight (unfortunately) but right now I want to date you :) I completely wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying. I felt like I was reading my own journal when I read your blog. Like you I don’t hate all men but yea I hate almost all of them…. and I feel like it’s become really the battle of sexes now… REPLY 39. TeresaAugust 17, 2009 at 12:41 AM # I totally forgot; I would very much enjoy reading your 9-part (and counting) series on porn. I’m very opinionated on this subject and enjoy a psychological, socialogical, ethical, as well as philosophical discussion on the subject of porn. Thanks for the offer, Nine Deuce! REPLY o Nine DeuceAugust 17, 2009 at 12:53 AM # Here’s part 8, which deals with men’s supposition that they have a right to use porn. If you go over to the right and use the search box, you can type in “porn part 1” or whichever of the 9 you’d like to see as they are all titled porn part __ plus a subtitle. REPLY 40. JonahAugust 22, 2009 at 2:17 AM # “I’m not going to be called a bigot. It’s perfectly acceptable for someone to dislike the generalized behaviors of a group of oppressive people. Bigotry is groundless. There’s a difference.” I understand what you’re saying (and frankly, I wouldn’t be callous enough to call any member of an oppressed group a bigot for their reaction to the oppression), but this makes me uneasy. After all, I am a man, a radical feminist, and a homosexual. I’m often tempted to hate heterosexuals (you may or may not be one, but statistically it’s likely I guess), but I try not to. After all, heterosexuals are the ones oppressing me, and the vast majority of heterosexuals, especially men, degrade and offend me on a regular basis. We could go into a surreal Olympics of Oppression here, deciding who has it worse, homosexuals or women (I’d probably concede it’s the latter), but either way, the situations are similar. I try not to hate heterosexuals because it doesn’t accomplish much. There are plenty of straights who are kind to me and supportive and I love them for that. I certainly make blanket statements that heterosexual culture sucks, that heteronormative assumption sucks, etc. However, I don’t hate heterosexuals FOR BEING heterosexuals. I guess I’m just saying that it would probably be more productive to focus your anger (which is definitely righteous) towards the actual cause of the oppression, which is not men or masculinity itself, but instead certain (read: the fucking huge majority of) men (unless somehow I’ve misread your stance and you actually believe that masculinity inherently leads to oppression, in which case I guess I just disagree). Does that make any sense? I love your blog and I’m definitely going to be reading more. Have a nice day! *Sorry for so many parentheses, I’m a terrible writer.* REPLY o Nine DeuceAugust 22, 2009 at 2:31 AM # I think that masculinity, as in the cultural idea of what it means to be gendered male, is the problem because it’s defined by aggression and privilege. That doesn’t mean I hate everyone with a penis, but that I hate the idea of what “manhood” is supposed to consist of because it hurts women (and it also hurts men). I don’t walk around hating every dude I see, but I’m wary of them and I assume they’re assholes until I see otherwise, because 99% of the time they are. But I’ll get further into all that in the rest of the series. Welcome aboard. (And worry not about parentheses – I’m a big fan myself). REPLY * JamesAugust 23, 2009 at 12:43 AM # I don’t walk around hating every dude I see, but I’m wary of them and I assume they’re assholes until I see otherwise, because 99% of the time they are. …Ok firstly that’s fucking crazy. 49% of the people you meet are assholes? Which planet are you located, exactly? Secondly: that’s thedefinition of prejudice. You make a negative assumption based upon an anecdotally compiled grudge. REPLY * Nine DeuceAugust 23, 2009 at 2:17 AM # I hate everyone, James. It’s probably got more to do with my countercultural elitism. REPLY * ismeAugust 23, 2009 at 8:15 AM # “49% of the people you meet are assholes? Which planet are you located, exactly?” Yeah, where exactly is it where 51% of the population isn’t? REPLY o JamesAugust 23, 2009 at 1:00 AM # Hey there Jonah! Idk if this is to do with me being bi rather than gay, but personally I don’t feel oppressed at all. Sorry to feel that you do, though. As for me being “callous enough to call any member of an oppressed group a bigot for their reaction to the oppression”, there’s a quote I’d like to share with you: “For our declaration of independence, we should have the skin of a white man for parchment, his skull for an inkwell, his blood for ink, and a bayonet for a pen!” That was Boisrond-Tonnerre, aide to revolutionary Haitian, Dessalines. Both Dessalines & Boisrond-Tonnerre had been horribly oppressed, as all black Haitians had been, but both of them were still murderous bigots. ND is obviously nowhere near their league (either in bigotry or badassery), but I hope that that historical quotation goes to demonstrate how being a victim of oppression & being bigoted are far from mutually exclusive. (In this instance, however, there was a happy ending: rather than embarking upon full-scale genocide upon reaching power Dessalines decided that white Haitians who had fought for independence had thus rendered themselves black, which is an atypical definition but as sound as any. Whether B-T agreed with it, I honestly don’t know. I certainly doubt that he did at the time of that quote’s origin.) REPLY * BecstarAugust 23, 2009 at 3:22 AM # You keep saying things like that but all I hear is excuses for your behaviour. You cannot be a bigot against people who have been oppressing you for hundreds of years. You, on the other hand, keep proving how ignorant you are about how power and oppression actually works. Too many people, yourself included, like to align themselves with an oppressed group to try to prove how “progressive” they are to the outside word. All you are actually proving to those who are oppressed is how engrained that power actually is by not only refusing to recognise that their is a power imbalance but also by shifting blame to the oppressed group. Take a look at yourself for the true bigotry. REPLY * ismeAugust 23, 2009 at 8:29 AM # “You cannot be a bigot against people who have been oppressing you for hundreds of years.” Well, no, because the human lifespan doesn’t run for hundreds of years. Seriously, though, when people start talking about other people’s oppression as if it was their own, it becomes a bit of a slippery slope. The oppression of women by men has been going on for thousands of years, yes, and has, and is, spectactularly horrific at times (as opposed to “normal”, common or garden prejudice), but the men of today (or, for that matter, any other time) are only responsible for their own actions, and to some extent those of their contemporaries. Personally, I’d say that it would certainly be possible for someone who had been oppressed to be a bigot (hell, look at the Middle East…every atrocity committed against *them* is fully justified by all the atrocities committed against *us*, forever). That’s not to say I’m calling ND a bigot, or even that I think it’s relevant. Not having ever met her, all she is to me is black text on a white background, and ideas which are right or wrong regardless of who or what she is. REPLY * JamesAugust 23, 2009 at 11:17 AM # Becstar, I don’t really deem this to be a response to my comment, as such. You have said “You cannot be a bigot against people who have been oppressing you for hundreds of years”, but that seems to be an assertion rather than an argument, because you have provided seemingly no reasoning. I would say that it is entirely possible, as well as probable & unhelpful. Unless you are in a position where that hatred can drive you through a successful revolution (& radical feminism has yet to find it’s analogue to anti-colonialism’s Haiti) it generally just generates rancour & prevents people getting anywhere. Think Nation of Islam era Malcolm X (post-NoI X was an entirely different story, a true hero were there ever one). As for your ad hominem regarding my motivation, well I don’t reallyneed to respond to that, but I shall. I don’t want to impress everyone by by astounding progressiveness, & if I did I’d probably be posting elsewhere. I can think of far better locations for an ego rubdown & if you have an ounce of empathy (& have read this post’s title) you’ll probably be able to see why. Politically I’ve been all over the place these few last years, but the lodestone is opposition to bigotry (with the anti-racism, internationalism, egalitarianism, socialism & all else that adherence to such a doctrine implies being constants too). I think that elimination of the inaccurate cultural trope of there being a gender binary is a matter of highest priority. Unfortunately many feminists seem to be treating it with reverence rather than the contempt it deserves, albeit inadvertantly. The outcome is sexism, pure & simple: an environment where I can claim that a post entitled “Why I Hate Men” is sexist & be accused of bigotry is one where the world has been put upon its head. I am not blaming you & Nine for any social ills (I don’t really know where you got that impression), I’m just saying that this post is pretty damn bigoted. Its a piece of prejudice, pure & simple. REPLY * BecstarAugust 23, 2009 at 11:01 PM # Why thankyou so much for not blaming you. Being a girl and all I really needed male validation. And of course, if a MAN says a woman is bigoted then he must be right! This patriarchy business is obviously all for our own good anyway, right? REPLY * JamesAugust 24, 2009 at 1:13 AM # That’s a mixture of a strawman & an ad hominem. I tried to present a case for why I think that this post is a bigoted one (not that Nine is a bigot), & now you’ve responded by saying that I just think I’m right because I’m male. If that was the case then I wouldn’t have bothered making an argument. Speaking of which, you’ve just typed out some views which I don’t believe in to try & discredit the ones which I do. That isn’t really a rebuttal. REPLY * BecstarAugust 24, 2009 at 8:17 AM # There’s no point rebutting the argument of someone who is convinced they are right simply because they have been brought up to believe that as a male they are always right when compared to women. It hasn’t even crossed your mind that your position is based on your privilege and that just because you claim to be supporting feminism does not mean you are incapable of being a misogynist. Until you recognise this any argument you produce is worthless. REPLY * JamesAugust 24, 2009 at 8:58 AM # To be less snarky & concise: -I’ve actually been considering this whole “privilege” thing a lot lately. I’m very divided over whether stressing it is a bad or good thing, but I certainlyhave given it some thought. -I’ve never stated I’m “supporting feminism”, I certainly do not support radical feminism, on the grounds that I think it generally reinforces the gender binary (see: the post we’re replying to). -Neither do I assume that there are no misogynist feminists. It just so happens that I find misogyny preposterous. That sort of comes hand in glove with disagreeing with the binary. -Above all in matters of gender I am opposed to prejudice & presumption. I think that that’s the source of a huge amount of ill (that’s a woman, she’ll get pregnant if I hire her; that’s a man, he won’t understand feelings). That’s what I think should be eliminated from out culture, & right now I’d say you are being part of the problem rather than the solution. You are dismissing me on the basis of which side of the imaginary line I fall down on, rather than dismissing the binary on the basis of it being bullshit. I don’t know nearly enough about you to estimate whether that’s due to oppression of some kind you’ve suffered or not, but that’s not really my point. You are acting like a right little binarist. -Speaking of ignorance, you know fuck all about my background. Don’t imagine your lovely structuralist model acts as a substitute for asking me how I was raised, please. I certainly was not raised to believe that men are always correct over women. Otherwise I’d be hanging with my thief of a father in Spain, living merrily off of cash drained offshore from the joint account (& the children’s building societies, & the mortgages run up on our properties until they were much worse than worthless, & the stolen jewels/champagne, & the…), rather than having stuck around being dirt poor here with my mother for five miserable years. & that’s your literal dirt poor, you understand. At some point bedrooms without a roof, dust every-fucking-where. No hot water for several months so baths involved boiling twenty kettles, etc, etc, etc… All the while I could have been sunning myself laughing at that mad bitch back in Britain with her deranged conspiracy theories & faulty grasp of finances. But instead I accepted that he was an embezzling bastard, my mother was the entirely blameless victim of theft on a truly vast scale, & so I stuck around with me mother & little sister, both of whom (believe it or not) are both females & feminine & argue with me all the fucking time rather than ceding to my almighty, cock-based authority as they surely should do what with my bountiful, fathomless privilege. Instead they force me on a regular basis to accept that they’re right & I’m just fucking wrong. & they aren’t even feminists! Unbelievable, huh? It’s almost as if structuralism doesn’t work when you try & apply it to the micro, or something wild like that. -Almighty fucksticks, you truly are fond of them ad hominems, aren’t you? As it happens attacking me doesn’t dismiss any of my points, as much as you may want it to & as self-righteous as you may feel while laying into my defects. REPLY * RedRobinOctober 3, 2014 at 11:55 PM # James… fuck off REPLY * ismeAugust 24, 2009 at 9:10 AM # “I think that elimination of the inaccurate cultural trope of there being a gender binary is a matter of highest priority. Unfortunately many feminists seem to be treating it with reverence rather than the contempt it deserves, albeit inadvertantly. ” I agree with you on that…sort of. However, eliminating the gender binary is harder than simply ignoring it, and what you see as the reverence of it is probably due to people drawing attention to it, often not in the best way, though there is some overlap. Mind you, I sympathise with those who don’t see it being eliminated, at least not in our lifetimes, and have thus accepted is as a constant, even if I don’t neccesarily agree with them. REPLY 41. roesmokerAugust 26, 2009 at 2:10 AM # Right on! I really do hate men, as defined by the patriarchy, and most males act out that role to a greater or lesser degree. Some of that is self-defense because they hate me, and all women. I also hate sex, as the patriarchy has defined it. Any and all time spent protesting that “no, we really love men/cock” could be better spent bringing about the feminist revolution. I know there is another way to experience sex that is not violent, hateful or fetishizing dominance, but I don’t know exactly what it is yet, nor how to get to it when starting from the entrenched mindset of the patriarchy. REPLY 42. Grace MargaretAugust 26, 2009 at 3:37 AM # I think (and correct me if I’m wrong) that Nine Deuce is saying if anything a feminist says is going to be construed as “man-hating”, then why not embrace it and not waste time constantly trying to explain how it’s the system and the men who perpetuate it that are the problem. I don’t hate all men, but I’m SOOO SICK of the everyday, socially acceptable hatred and nastiness directed at women in general, and feminists in particular when we have the nerve to complain about it. You could say the most innocent thing, like women should get equal pay for equal work, and get accused of just being an angry ‘man-hater’. Calling ND a ‘bigot’ misses the point entirely. Why not direct that energy toward your fellow men and take them to task for their nastiness toward women and their definition of manhood as being someone who is superior to women and treats women contemptuously? REPLY 43. AnjSeptember 24, 2009 at 10:12 PM # men are assholes. they can’t seem to keep their dick in their pants for a long time. bloody fuckers. thank you for creating this article. i am feeling soo relaxed after a long time unloading my hatred for bloody male sex. REPLY 44. EchoSeptember 25, 2009 at 2:12 AM # Don’t you think even all our life’s individual subjective experiences never can be fully objectively interpreted until you try out both sides? So, never. My mother was a strong person, had equal function in my family and had equal job as my father, but was payed more. REPLY 45. ImaginarySeptember 26, 2009 at 3:36 AM # Thank fucking walrus! I love this post. Geez, I have tried for a long time to like or at least tolerate men but I can’t. I simply can’t. I have never met a man that had any clue what they were talking about; even the potentially smart ones were diminished by the fact that they still viewed girls talking about men as useless fucks as sexist and evil as men talking about girls the same way. Because they like to think that men face all the oppression and bullshit now a days and that male privilege doesn’t exist. FUUUCK! I hate them. Anyway, it’s more sensible to be anti-men until you met one that’s not shit; you don’t trust a giant knife being hurdled at your head because of the off chance that it might be plastic. REPLY 46. ElsieSeptember 29, 2009 at 3:36 AM # I grew up with men. My mother had 4 brothers so she wasn’t all that feminine. I never felt comfortable as a woman, and once in my twenties I had to start trying to figure it out. But now coming up on 30, I’ve realized I don’t enjoy male company either. I’ve never been treated with such disrespect than by men when i started dating at around 25. For no reason. Other than having children, I have absolutely no use for them. Oh and maybe moving heavy objects. It’s sad, but they bring it on themselves. They lie, they cheat and think only about themselves. REPLY 47. HannahSeptember 29, 2009 at 10:14 PM # Thank you for this. I thought I was the only one. REPLY 48. JessOctober 20, 2009 at 3:40 AM # What a splendid forum. …And men can go to hell! REPLY 49. ImaginaryOctober 24, 2009 at 2:53 PM # PLLEEEEEASE UPDATE THIS SERIES!!! I’m feeling very angsty and man-hatey lately. You’re wonderful 9-2, by the way. REPLY 50. CarrieDecember 1, 2009 at 10:36 AM # I’m so glad I found this. Here I am, sitting at my computer because I can’t sleep. I’m sick of how women are treated as second class citizens, and I don’t understand why men aren’t aware of how hurtful they are to women. They make cheap jokes about how women are sex objects, and then there are women who promote that image through the media. There’s no hope if we sit around and wait for men to understand all of this discrimination, yet there is also no hope if women keep encouraging such behavior. Societal influences suck… REPLY 51. BrianDecember 1, 2009 at 4:27 PM # @Beth WHY??? et cetera Men and women are more or less identical, except we get told different things and people react to us differently. Why do women talk about their feelings and why don’t men? Because women get told to talk about their feelings and get shunned if they don’t, and men get told not to talk about their feelings and get hit with sticks if they do. REPLY 52. RobynDecember 2, 2009 at 4:12 AM # It’s not the individuals I hate: it’s what they’ve collectively bought into. Lip service: we respect women. Reality… um, I really don’t even want to discuss it: it only serves to validate their behaviour. And yet, and yet… if there *is* a male out there that doesn’t buy into the whole obnoxious, arrogant, entitled, violent, stinky, crass, loud- mouthed, stupid, craven, bragadocious, thoughtless, un-reflective, abusive, selfish, lowbrow, wilfully ignorant asshole way of being, he’s either gay or thought of as gay (not that there’s anything *wrong* with that!) … — and this is the kicker –: by *women*! Why the fuck *is* that? Are roles so entrenched that we *expect* men to behave this way, even though we deplore the behaviour? Mixed messages. REPLY 53. UnapologeticDecember 10, 2009 at 10:52 PM # Found your site by googling “I hate men” and have been lurking in the shadows ever since. But I can no longer resist commenting, if only to say how right you are and how pissed off I am that so few people get it. Feminists do take a lot of crap for being man-haters–and we waste precious time and energy defending ourselves against those charges. But so what if we do hate men sometimes? Excuse me if I have trouble exhibiting tolerance in a world where I cannot walk home at night (modestly dressed, not that it should matter) without being stalked by a man who “just wants my number.” In a world where me screaming, “Fuck off, asshole,” elicits nothing more than bemused smiles from passers by. Because, you know, I should be flattered that some random asshole finds me attractive enough to harass. Because women were put on this earth for the sole purpose of eliciting hard-ons from manly, manly men. And don’t you dare express dissatisfaction with this situation, lest you be accused of being a bitter man-hating dyke. Well, I’m ready to confess. I hate this system and the men who propagate it, whether by design or out of willful ignorance and complacency. Great blog, 9D. Hope you get a chance to update this series sometime soon. REPLY 54. BekahDecember 19, 2009 at 3:00 AM # I RULE THEM! REPLY 55. GraceDecember 20, 2009 at 2:27 AM # I’ve been on another forum (non-feminist related) and the men seemed cool for the most part. But when someone brought up feminism the reaction was surreal. The hate toward women showed it’s ugly face. And also the ridiculous “men too” argument. “Men are discrimintated against too” so women can’t complain about anything. It was an atheist forum and they pay a lot of lip service to mysogyny in religion, but, like using the plight of women to justify going to war in Afghanistan and then not giving a shit about whether women in those countries have any rights once the country is “liberated”, these assholes use religious-based misogyny just as an excuse to bash religion. Talking about the rights of women in oppressively theocratic foreign countries, whom they’ll never ever meet or try to fuck, is easy. REPLY 56. JamesDecember 21, 2009 at 2:26 PM # The pseudo-feminist argument in favour of the Afghanistan occupation is fantastic: instead of those women-oppressing Taliban scumbags, we should support…Women-oppressing warlord scumbags. A huge leap forwards. REPLY 57. Miss AndristDecember 21, 2009 at 7:28 PM # I am a feminism evangelist. (For a self-described militant radical feminist who is also a PvP gamer, this should come as no surprise.) Last night, I introduced yet another woman – a fellow gamer – to what feminism actually is. Here is a summary: me: I am a militant radical feminist. her: But men have -some- uses! me: All PEOPLE have different talents and abilities and human potential; no trait is exclusive by sex. her: Everyone in my office, including the managers, are women, and they hire and promote based on looks, too. me: Women can be sexist without sexism becoming women’s fault, or women becoming responsible for sexism. Women can engage in sexist behaviors without making sexism any less wrong or oppressive to women, or making men benefit from sexism any less. her: …It’s really hard to see feminism as being wrong, the way YOU describe it. me: That’s because feminism is about enforcing the human dignity of non- males and eliminating inequality based on sex. her: Then why is it always described as so bad? me: Because we were all conditioned by the same patriarchal society. You’ll note your immediate response to my feminism was about men? The patriarchy insists than anything that isn’t ABOUT MEN must be AGAINST MEN. Feminism is not about men. It’s about women. So you are conditioned by society to respond as if it has anything to do with men, because the patriarchal society is only about men, and can’t be about anybody else. Maybe non-males are easier to pitch feminism to because we have an intrinsic sense of our own oppression and its injustice, of our own human worth and how it is infringed upon in every tiny and monstrous way. Males do not live with constant incursions calling their humanity into question, for one thing. Males are also taught from birth that everything is about themselves. Non-males are also taught that everything is about someone else (males). Non-males are conditioned to consider the thoughts and ideas of others; males are conditioned to presume the value and importance of their own thoughts and ideas. That’s why males barge into feminist blogs and try to set the wayward wimminz, who should be LISTENING, straight. Never having learned to second-guess the correctness of their ideas, just shutting non-females up is in my experience too often impossible. REPLY 58. polly styreneDecember 21, 2009 at 8:11 PM # The pseudo-feminist argument in favour of the Afghanistan occupation is fantastic: instead of those women-oppressing Taliban scumbags, we should support…Women-oppressing warlord scumbags. It’s certainly an interesting one. Even more interesting when you think that women’s rights in Iraq have taken a huge leap backwards since the latest bit of warmongering. Oh and the USof Az didn’t give a shit about the position of women in Aghanistan when the ‘evil empire’ invaded and they armed the Taliban. Oh and remind me why we’re not at war with Saudi Arabia and China again? REPLY 59. Nine DeuceDecember 22, 2009 at 12:58 AM # CC – I think there might be some miscommunication because I disabled comment threading. I don’t think Meg was talking to you, but rather that the posts are out of order. REPLY 60. OutsideLookingOverDecember 23, 2009 at 1:46 AM # Your post pretty much sums up what *I* hate the most about men and masculinity. If anything I hate it even more than you do, but for the oddest reason in the world, perhaps: physically, I “belong” to that group. Well, let’s say it’s assumed that I belong. The behaviour is *expected*. And yet, I have always known there is something fundamentally wrong with it, have never subscribed to it, could never play that game and so have always been on the outside looking over at it. The more I look at it, the more my initial take on masculinity is confirmed and the less I want to have to do with it. Sad to say, all I’ve achieved it putting myself into this odd grey-area socially. Since I don’t/can’t “play the game” heterosexual men and women see me as “weird”. Gay men see me as a wannabe gay… “not a chance, mate”. Gay women feel sorry for me, because they see inside me – all women communicate at such an incredibly wonderful level and pick up on things no man will ever see – and realise what is going on and how bleak my plight is. I’ve been on oestrogen and anti-androgens for five years now but know one thing to be incontrovertible fact: no born male can ever “become” female. There is just too much missing. However, this journey has given me an opportunity to understand how to listen properly (with your whole head and eyes and heart), how to see the value of a smile (mine) and to offer it often, what body-boundaries mean and how to respect those of others, and how to count to twenty-five before saying anything back. I feel as on-the-outside as ever, but it doesn’t much matter anymore. There is always art. REPLY 61. JosieDecember 31, 2009 at 6:17 AM # If i draw from personal experience. Men win when it comes to winning the ‘biggest a**hole’ race. What i dont get is they claim women aren’t human, they should take a look at themselves. I know in my heart men must feel inferior to women…because they have a greater need to disparage us women. REPLY 62. jashutson13January 16, 2010 at 12:47 AM # I hate it when men call a women a slut when she doesn’t give in to him. It also not always sexual with a man either. I was reading a blog on why men hate women and another thing they addressed was how stupid women where. I decided to read the comments posted( mostly by men). Then I came on here and read the comments, and the comments (made by women) on here is far more intelligent than the comments that those men where making. It just goes to show that women don’t have to do a bunch of name calling to get there point across. REPLY 63. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 16, 2010 at 2:11 AM # Not an excuse, but testosterone at certain levels appears to have a deleterious effect on the intellect. That’s a liability. Words failing them, “real” men resort to profanity and then fisticuffs. It’s all rather sad. REPLY 64. JamesJanuary 16, 2010 at 2:18 AM # Other studies using placebos indicate a psychsomatic effect may be at play, OLO. REPLY 65. ismeJanuary 16, 2010 at 1:19 PM # “It just goes to show that women don’t have to do a bunch of name calling to get there point across.” It seems odd, but as was mentioned somewhere on this blog, you don’t seem to hear of female trolls. REPLY 66. JamesJanuary 16, 2010 at 6:13 PM # I know at least one in person: she’s both overtly female & a skilled troll. REPLY 67. yeahwesaiditJanuary 23, 2010 at 3:57 AM # Nicely said. I hate them too. I wouldn’t kill anyone or anything-I just have no respect for 90% of the behavior of 90% of men. For 53 years I tried to be nice. My mother was in the Civil Rights movement and the Feminist movement of the 60s and 70s and she and the others were constantly ridiculed. She always said and I always said, ‘We don’t hate men, we just want freedom for all human beings.’ But the other day I was telling this guy about how the behavior of some other guy drove me to the exhilarating conclusion that I genuinely was through with dealing with men, especially now that I don’t have the enormous sex drive I once had, and it’s so much easier now to stay out of harm’s way, and he said, “You just hate men.” “No I don’t,” I said, and then I stopped and admitted it: “Yeah, I just hate men.” We bumped fists on that one. I felt no apology, and none was demanded. It felt good to tell the truth and not be nice. I can understand how a lot of black people hate white people. (I mean I hope nobody kills me for being white or anything, but I can understand when a black person feels a certain kind of disgust for a white person considering the history and the privileges and the often twisted, ignorant assumptions.) Deep, deep riveting hate is no good for any of us, but when I say I hate men, it’s not like its something eating me up inside — it’s just an honest, free response. Of course I would save one if he was drowning or something and I had the strength and the means. I just wouldn’t want to subject myself to his more than likely critical, dominating, selfish, insulting ways once I dragged him back on land. I was married for many years to the love of my life and have wonderful children but you know now that I’ve been alone for 14 years I am the happiest and most free human being on the planet and have no desire ever to live with a man again in my life. That means I don’t have to take another obnoxious, unconscious, compensating, condescending insult from another man for as long as I live. That in itself is bliss! Unfortunately, people say I still look kind of “young and attractive” according to ridiculous and prevailing ideas — and I still get cat calls or comments about my ass that aren’t always said in the most loving way. But other than that I am home free baby! Home free! [It doesn’t bother me if men are friendly and make remarks like “you have a beautiful ass” in a funny or polite way- I’m talking about when they’re hostile and disrespectful, and say things like “I’m gonna fuck you up your ass and then you’re gonna suck my dick.” Just wanted to illustrate what I’m talking about lest some dick head male gets on here and thinks I’m just “being too sensitive” when men “express themselves.” I don’t go around harassing males (and didn’t even when I was a horn dog (horn bitch) in heat) and I don’t appreciate when they go around harassing females, especially me.] Hate is not a fun or desirable sensation but it’s honest as shit. REPLY 68. yeahwesaiditJanuary 23, 2010 at 10:40 AM # I fucking hate porn, I hate men, I hate lip stick, I hate fucking high heels, and being in a fucking harness. I hate verbal game playing and banter and dick contests, and little boys that pour gasoline on ducks and light them on fire, and teens that raped my sister, and husbands that stabbed me in the back, and guys who criticize Monique for not shaving on the day or her award, and comments about how young women look like ripe fruit but it only lasts for a season, and snuff, and men who stone women adulterers to death, and families who burn up daughter in laws, and doctors who fuck up women, and lawyers that make condescending remarks, and sneaky deals, and spouses who leave wives when they are sick, and arrogant ass kissing, politicking co-workers, and arrogant little boys who are rude to adult women…I fucking hate them all. REPLY 69. JessJanuary 26, 2010 at 2:25 AM # http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/why-men-like- porn?ecd=wnl_wmh_011110 Fucking shoot me. REPLY 70. GraceJanuary 26, 2010 at 3:47 AM # Yes, it’s all about men’s desire to create offspring to carry on their genes, silly women! It’s funny how that desire seems to dissipate once that baby is born…wouldn’t the desire to take care of your offspring and see them grow up to be healthy and happy be just as strong, if not more so? Wouldn’t it make sense for men to be ‘hardwired’ for being responsible fathers too? REPLY 71. AndrewJanuary 26, 2010 at 4:51 PM # I agree with that article to the extent that a man’s use of porn is not a reflection of how he feels about his partner. I also think that porn engages men on a subliminal, subconscious level as well. That, however, does not mean that porn can not have detrimental effects on a relationship, as opposed to his “daily life”, which the article states only occurs at a rate of 5%. It also doesn’t mean that men are powerless against it. I have huge problems with personal vices which, though they require a choice, are conceptualized as “diseases” or “addictions” that people are powerless to stop. This includes drugs, alcohol, smoking, etc. I don’t think porn is different. REPLY 72. RianJanuary 27, 2010 at 5:59 PM # And that led to sexy outfits and a little experimentation in the bedroom. “Sexy outfits” for her, no doubt. What a lovely sales pitch for commodified sexuality. Yay, consumerism! Barf REPLY 73. LeelaJanuary 31, 2010 at 11:05 PM # Thank you for this! I’ve read so much female-bashing misogynistic crap on the web that I’m glad to see it get flipped. And might I add that you’re much more intelligent / correct than the aforementioned misogynists. I’m sick of trying to tell men that “feminists” don’t hate men. They can go find the fucking dictionary and figure out the definition if they want. It’s about equality. No matter what the (male-dominated) media machine tells them. And yet some of them insist on acting like parrots, echoing back whatever they hear on the all-knowing, all-powerful television. And I get what you’re saying. You not talking about ALL men. Just the fucking retarded misogynists who think women aren’t human. I work in a male-dominated industry and I’m so fucking sick of all the sexist jokes. And I’m SICK of them saying, “Aww you don’t have a sense of humor!” When I don’t find the same old sexist joke (that I’ve been hearing since I was born) funny. Everyone now-a-days wants to be cute, sarcastic and satirical. Too bad they don’t fucking understand humor. Satire doesn’t mean reinforcing the status quo. I’d also like to add that I’m sick of the lady-douchebags who sit there killing themselves trying to follow all the rules set forth by the powerful man on what women “should be.” Dieting…dressing…having emotions…all based on what would be most pleasing to men. And then those lady-douches insist that they’re not “feminists.” Of course those brainwashed idiots aren’t feminists, they’re too busy being sheep. Again, thanks for this article. I’m sure you get tons of hate mail from idiot men everywhere. Stay strong! REPLY 74. RoxieFebruary 1, 2010 at 3:57 AM # You know, I was just thinking about this post and it reminded me of WHY I broke up with a b/f several years ago. He asked me what my dream was. I said it was to make a magazine that focused on REAL issues that women face, at the time I likened it to the “anti-cosmo”. And he asked me “what about men’s issues?” I replied, “YOU can make that magazine.” He then went on to liken my dream to the separatism employed by the Nazis (he’s British) against Jews & homosexuals. He went on to say–I will never forget THIS as long as I live–that my magazine & idea would be “the last nail in the coffin of freedom” Dudes, man. In hindsight, best reason to break up ever. REPLY 75. GraceFebruary 1, 2010 at 7:12 AM # Roxie, I know, I hear that all the time. Whenever you bring up empowering women, “well, what about men?” That’s considered ‘equality’, if women can complain about something, it’s only fair that men can complain too. Blech. You have to decode Male Supremacist Speak, ‘freedom’ means being able to have power over women. ‘Equality’ means keeping the status quo. And women who fight against discrimination, oppression, abuse, torture, and/or murder of their fellow females are ‘Nazis’. REPLY 76. ismeFebruary 1, 2010 at 1:44 PM # Not to mention, how few of the legitimate issues they generally choose to bring up in response. There are actual concerns over the rights of men (and, for that matter, any group you care to name) that MRAs should be dealing with, that are totally ignored in favour of batshit insanity. REPLY 77. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 1, 2010 at 9:03 PM # But when you weigh those mens-rights issues with the rights-of-women issues, there’s really no comparison. Men have nothing to whinge about. There is strong evidence to suggest that these problems are so ingrained as to actually be quasi-accepted by both genders. Susan Maushart addressed this in “Wifework”. Men have to truly buy into equality in every sense of the word. Colour me cynical, but there are too many misogynistic bastards bred out there by phallocrats for that to happen overnight. And then, there’s the whole role thing. Which century *is* this, anyway? REPLY 78. GXBFebruary 2, 2010 at 9:35 AM # I like to think the 21st century can become the first in which current forms of misogyny have no place (US-centric here). After all, women being able to vote in the US didn’t happen until 1920 (except Wyoming got there in 1869, or 1890 as a state, says Wikipedia), but we definitely think of the 20th century as one in which women had suffrage. If you see what I’m saying, this late at night. REPLY 79. ismeFebruary 2, 2010 at 10:52 AM # “But when you weigh those mens-rights issues with the rights-of-women issues, there’s really no comparison. Men have nothing to whinge about.” I don’t agree there. No matter how much greater the issues confronting one group are, it doesn’t make the issues confronting another to be irrelevant. Mind you, MRAs don’t seem to like the “less important but still relevant” label, or else have a very distorted scale. I agree about the ingrained acceptance of the problems though. REPLY 80. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 3, 2010 at 8:50 AM # Perhaps it’s because I’m in a profession with predominantly female colleagues (nursing) that I can’t appreciate men’s rights as an issue, but… I see female patients in post-anaesthesia recovery: these women have been suffering with severe, debilitating lower abdominal pain for… far too long – because that is what women *do*! they put up with the pain because women don’t complain. That’s my experience in recovery: women as a rule complain a third as much as men. These women *finally* go in to seek medical help because they simply can’t *stand it anymore. They undergo a laparoscopy (the surgeon actually looks around in the belly with a keyhole surgery device). So many times the surgeon *sees* nothing abnormal … I’m tending to their needs (breathing, pain relief, etc) as they wake up after the operation and they receive the news that “there is nothing wrong”!!! and these poor women dissolve into tears because … because … why??? Because the bloody surgeon can’t *see* anything, they think telling the patient there is nothing wrong is the *right* thing to do? Do they think that it would be a *relief*??? My main role is to support those women, to reassure them that they are not crazy (I don’t put it that way, obviously, but that’s the gist of their concern) and that there *is* an answer out there. I can’t cure, but I can reassure, and do my best to give hope and strength to them. If males were afflicted with this condition (not endometriosis… the medicos don’t seem to have a name for it, but I see it a LOT) the research would be fast and furious and the cure would have been found *ages* ago… but because it afflicts women, well, regardless of the fact that surgeons have to scratch their heads telling the patient in their rooms they couldn’t see anything and then what, prescribe pain meds? nothing much seems to be happening. Well, I don’t read much evidence of anything. Stack that against men’s rights: sorry, the male-biased weight of focus on even something like healthcare tells me that on a very basic level, equality… isn’t. Men’s rights vs what? REPLY 81. nayoFebruary 3, 2010 at 10:16 AM # Nine-deuce, Your voice is sanity, truth, the way it is. Reading your words is grounding me to the earth right now. Lately it has been difficult relating to other humans, especially in regards to the patriarchal construct we are born into. It annoys me all the time and I can’t turn off my awareness. Wouldn’t want to. Just mentioning patriarchy results in a request for definition of said word. Sigh. Grateful that you take the time to express your viewpoint. You are so eloquent and gifted with the written word. Coming here, I feel connected to other people. You give me a sense of hope and so do many of your commenters. Your influence is needed and appreciated. Keep on keeping on. In Seattle… REPLY 82. JamesFebruary 4, 2010 at 10:37 AM # Sure OLO – men’s diseases matter far more than women’s in our society. That’s why the prostate cancer campaign is so much bigger than the breast cancer campaign, right? REPLY 83. PortiaFebruary 5, 2010 at 12:52 AM # James – you should keep your mouth shut about things you clearly know little about. The respective levels of impact on humans of prostate cancer and breast cancer are such that they are not comparable in the way you have tried to. The ‘campaign’ face of breast cancer is overwhelmingly directed by corporations making profit. Unbiased, neutral information in this ‘campaign’ is very hard to find. Even deeming these ‘campagins’ as something of a pointer to the state of diseases “mattering” as you so vaguely put it, is ridiculous. REPLY 84. JamesFebruary 5, 2010 at 1:09 AM # Portia – I’d appreciate it if you were a little more courteous. I was responding to this passage: “but because it afflicts women, well, regardless of the fact that surgeons have to scratch their heads telling the patient in their rooms they couldn’t see anything and then what, prescribe pain meds” You may claim that the breast cancer campaign is an astroturf staged by corporations, but the contributions made by individuals (both in term of money & “awareness” efforts/activities) clearly demonstrate that women are hardly deemed worthless, nor are conditions which they specifically encounter inevitable disregarded. Indeed, I’d say that by comparing the campaigns’ relative successes you’d observe quite the reverse. Finally: everything is perfectly “comporable” to anything else. Me stubbing my toe in comparison to the Holocaust is insignificant, for example, because it didn’t involve massive amounts of death. That is a comparison. It irks me that so many people mistake the very function of a comparison, & attempt to conflate it with the entirely distinct equation. REPLY 85. PortiaFebruary 5, 2010 at 3:36 AM # You were comparing the two cancers with the intention to equate and still are. Compare to your heart’s content, the two diseases are not analogous. Read about the effects of breast cancer on humans and the effects of prostate cancer on humans and then draw conclusions rather than basing your entire arguement on the fact that the less well publicised cancer is found in men only and the better predominantly in women. If you can’t be bothered to read, then don’t comment. The fact that breast cancer as a tool for marketting consumer products has made it on the corporate agenda does not offset the rest of women’s healthcare taking a back seat in the assignation of priorities in public health throughout the world. Expand your horizons. REPLY 86. Valerie MFebruary 5, 2010 at 8:48 AM # James, I’d appreciate it if you would fuck off now and never comment on this or any feminist blog again. Or read them. It would solve both problems – we wouldn’t have to see your clueless drivel and you could stop worrying about our level of courtesy. REPLY o RedRobinOctober 3, 2014 at 11:56 PM # 100% agreed… poor thing’s lost in testicle babble Shoot him REPLY 87. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 5, 2010 at 10:47 AM # “I was responding to this passage: You may claim that the breast cancer campaign is an astroturf staged by corporations, but the contributions made by individuals (both in term of money & ‘awareness’ efforts/activities) clearly demonstrate that women are hardly deemed worthless, nor are conditions which they specifically encounter inevitable disregarded.” How is that a response to what I was talking about? You’re talking about campaigns and comparing one disease against another: I’m talking about a exclusively female medical condition for which there *is* no diagnosis because the male-dominated medical society that came up with the concept of “female hysteria” have basically labelled this too — something they don’t understand — as “all-in-the-mind”. I’m a male nurse seeing this happening all too often to mostly younger women, and I’m appalled / incensed / AND doing something about it! This *IS* an example of “doesn’t-afflict-men, can’t-be-physically verified, must-be-all-in-the-mind”. It’s so easy for doctors to say: “look, we saw nothing wrong in there, you really don’t have anything wrong with you…” and then look for a psychological etiology for the pain, as if all other causes have been ruled out with a laparoscopy. I never see a male patient subjected to this sort of humiliation. With males, it’s always: “if there’s smoke, there must be a fire”. Always. I’ve been doing this for too many years … I’m in the trenches seeing this. So the whole male rights thing looks pretty bland and inconsequential from where I’m sitting. Men’s rights? They already have the weight of the medical community on their side. I’m frankly embarrassed to be one. REPLY 88. LaurelinFebruary 5, 2010 at 2:24 PM # Portia- marry me? REPLY 89. ismeFebruary 5, 2010 at 3:18 PM # Firstly, men can get breast cancer as well (I heard a cousin suggest the more manly sounding “chest cancer”). Secondly, the comparison of two ailments isn’t really all that useful in exploring the health system as a whole. However, I would like to appropriate for my own ends. To clarify, when I say I recognise the important of men’s rights advocates (not Men’s Rights Advocates), I mean in the same way that I recognise the important of people that work to cure less widespread and less debilitating illnesses. They should, of course, receive a lesser priority, often much lesser, but they are still worthwhile. REPLY 90. GraceFebruary 5, 2010 at 5:16 PM # The woman’s movement has helped get information about breast cancer out to the public through tireless activism. Also men like boobies, they don’t want us to lose them (see the “Save The Boobies” and “Save The Ta- Ta’s” campaigns.) It’s a fact that research studies on heart disease for many, many years were only conducted on men. Most people thought heart attacks were a men’s health issue, but according to the American Heart Association, “coronary heart disease, which causes heart attack, is the single leading cause of death for American women. Many women believe that cancer is more of a threat, but they’re wrong. Nearly twice as many women in the United States die of heart disease, stroke and other cardiovascular diseases as from all forms of cancer, including breast cancer.” Most people are still unaware of the fact that coronary heart disease is the #1 killer of women in the U.S. Also from the AHA: “Women and their healthcare providers do not know the biggest healthcare threat to women is heart disease. A 2006 survey conducted by the American Heart Association found that 43 percent of women are unaware that heart disease is the leading cause of death among women. Although women of color and of low socioeconomic status are disproportionately affected by heart disease — the death rate was 28 percent higher for black women than for white women in 2005 — only 31 percent of black women and 29 percent of Hispanic women knew that heart disease was their greatest health risk, compared to 68 percent among white women. “Among primary care physicians, only 8 percent knew that more womean than men die each year from CVD. “Many women do not recognize the warning signs or symptoms of heart disease and stroke, which may be more subtle than those exhibited by men. “Lack of awareness often results in less aggressive and sophisticated diagnosis and treatment by women’s health care providers, with worse outcomes.” REPLY 91. lizorFebruary 5, 2010 at 7:18 PM # Jess – Those articles telling us that male’s porn use is perfectly healthy and no threat to their partners – and in fact if we’d just lighten up and pornify ourselves a bit, we’d have a very nice time of it are SO FUCKING TIRESOME, aren’t they? “Often, one partner has a porn interest, and the other thinks that’s a problem,” says Russell Stambaugh, PhD, … “It rarely is”. I cannot tell you how sick I am of hearing this shit from “experts”. I bet that if women started having orgasms through some sort of online activity while their partners were elsewhere, a lot fewer “experts” would be telling us how harmless beating off to/with strangers is. A recent Slate article about Tiger Woods’ screwing around states: “Excessive sexual appetite was only clearly pathologized when it showed up in women.” Of course it was. Yes, shoot me indeed. REPLY 92. desert harpyFebruary 6, 2010 at 3:28 AM # What gives these asshole “experts” the right to tell women what is a problem in their relationships and what isn’t? “Often, one partner has a porn interest, and the other thinks that’s a problem,” says Russell Stambaugh, PhD, … “It rarely is”. Well now. It’s a problem if I leave his sorry ass over it, isn’t it? For him at least. At that point, my problem has been solved. REPLY 93. yeahwesaiditFebruary 13, 2010 at 2:46 PM # Edited Version for Posting with corrected typos and added sentences (Disregard the other one posted) Outsidelooking over: Thank you for writing in this blog. I was made violently ill by an antibiotic that triggered a 12 year illness that no one understood- finally today class action suits regarding this drug are beginning. When I first became sick and nearly died and went from 117 lbs to 77 lbs and was in crippling, non-stop pain with poisonous toxicity I was labeled deluded; my family and husband gradually came to believe the doctors; I was supporting my husband who was in school and could no longer work. No one in my family would help me get to an appropriate clinic to get help for my toxic condition, nearly fatal non-specific inflammatory bowel disease, undiagnosed anterior prolapsed uterus, rectocele and many other problems I later was able to diagnose after losing my family, my home, my savings, my reputation and credibility, my marriage, my career and my trust in human beings’ “innate ability for compassion.” Many of the ill people (95% of them women) that I later met who had similar environmental illnesses, drug- reaction-triggered chronic illnesses, and other serious conditions died because their families bought into “its all in your mind concept.” Like me, many of them became so chemically injured and sensitive they had to live outdoors in tents, under trees or in cars. I used to have to live in my car with my own make shift toilet in there because I became allergic to the plethora of chemicals in the majority of most built environments. I had been a registered architect and exposed to many toxic building materials, pesticides etc. but the anti-biotic did me in. I had no legal recourse at the time and no support of any kind except from other sick people who also lost all of their money and their families. It was a miracle I survived. I encountered many arrogant doctors and people who wanted to cover their asses. I think male patients who had environmental illness were also patronized and invalidated by doctors as well but not to the extreme level that I was, or that many of the other women were. All but one of the patients I watched die unnecessarily were women. I later learned that my health clinic was banned from making any diagnosis of chemical injury because they were advised by lawyers who had worked for chemical companies and drug companies not to do this. Apparently they were also incompetent because they could not diagnose my rectocele, horrifically painful inverted prolapsed uterus, fibroid mass the size of a peach that was superimposed on the uterus in ultra sounds, inflammatory bowel disease and a host of other things that were finally diagnosed years later when it was too late to avert some of the permanent damage. Thank you for writing into this blog. We need more men in the world to stand up with women and expose what is wrong. It is a blessing that you are a nurse. We need more male doctors and nurses who understand that women do not have psychosomatic illnesses except in the rarest of cases, if at all. Much of psychology today is superstition and witch doctor nonsense. Our society has swallowed all this lock, stock and barrel and people, like my friends are dying because of it. Men and women who had Gulf War Syndrome from drugs given them during the Gulf War were often given Prozac and told to shut up. But this is one form of environmental illness that at least was slightly recognized as legitimate probably because the majority of people who had it were men. They still were treated badly, just not as badly as women. I’m sure there are some men out there who went through horror, but I am speaking in general. You said you were embarrassed to be male but don’t be. You should be proud for speaking out. I do know what you feel . I often feel embarrassed, given the history, to be a white American in a country that performed medical experiments on black people, enslaved them like animals, extracted millions of hours of free labor that has never been compensated and still labels blacks as “spontaneous, disorganized, dangerous, lazy” and a host of other projected-shadow stereotypes. The truly psychosomatic illness is largely in the delusional portion of white males that arrogantly think they have an objective grip on reality while they create or allow the demise of others. REPLY 94. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 14, 2010 at 11:22 AM # @ YeahWeSaidIt: Thank you for your eloquent post… my heart goes out to you. Your plight is worse than most of what I’ve seen in my practice, but *any* woman going through this MUST be heard. If enough women stand firm that the pain and trauma they are silently suffering is real and needs dealing with, perhaps *other*, more influential medical people – doctors and researchers – will take notice and delve into solving these problems. I’m in an awkward position: I would love to do follow-up on my patients to see what if any solutions in terms of definitive treatment were arrived at, or whether it was all “here, take these (pain) pills” – but it could be misconstrued as *stalking* if I did. But only follow-up would make perfectly clear *if* a solution was ever forth-coming (non-surgical, in the absence of an visual pathology) for these women, or if they all ended up in some form of pain management / psychological management treatment scheme. REPLY 95. yeahwesaiditFebruary 16, 2010 at 7:19 PM # @Outsidelookingover: About following up (on especially female patients) and methods that work or don’t work: I am writing a book, currently entitled The Crying Spring (after Rachel Carson’s The Silent Spring). It is about environmental illnesses, current world environmental pollution, its effect on reproductive organs & womens’ bodies (and about prescription-drug reaction illnesses etc. especially prevalent with women). And I would be interested to start some kind of follow up care research organization that women especially could report to and that would protect doctors and nurses from being in a sensitive “stalker” position. Many main stream doctors do not even want to know what treatment or surgery eventually helped you (if any) because the treatments often challenge traditional medicine, but some doctors are genuinely interested. Perhaps there could be an organization. In my case, surgery helped some and cutting edge peptide treatments by a brilliant (but often persecuted doctor) finally helped me after 12 years of search around the world. A lot of doctors won’t want to hear this, not to mention the pharmaceutical companies; in the meantime many people suffering illnesses similar to mine continue to suffer due to lack of knowledge (which is squelched due to the way the AMA goes after doctors who pursue progressive methods, environmental medicine and scientific research that doesn’t fit in with the AMA and the pharmaceutical companies’ agendas. (I used to think that people who talk like me were naive, paranoid “conspiracy theorists” until I started doing some research on my own.) A lot of “alternative medicine” is just as useless as a lot of traditional medicine but the peptide research originally begun by the Rockefeller Center and advanced in Oxford England is solid science and able to bring alleviation and even cure to a number of diseases and pain conditions that are supposedly “incurable.” Due to monetary investments and drug interests the Rockefeller Center has not yet wanted or been able to push some of these wave- of-the-future- modalities — but some predict they will be in hospitals of the future (I guess once the pharmaceutical companies figure out another way to make money and start phasing out some of the more useless and dangerous drugs currently making up a percentage of their arsenal). Or perhaps the entire health care system gets overthrown and rebuilt. But the predominantly male model of western science and western medicine, while accomplishing some great things, has also created some real monsters, and women and children are often taking the most hits. This is because many of these chemicals are especially harsh on the reproductive and female organs; in other words chemicals and pollution destroy the bearers of life or the life-bearing capacities quicker than they destroy the average male system. But eventually they destroy the male as well. The gap is not that huge. Chemically injured people are called the “canaries in the coal mind” who warn the coal miners of growing toxic conditions when they die. The chemically sensitive (a vast majority of whom are female) are the new canaries and the current polluted world is the coal mine. In other words the growing number of environmentally ill people are the harbingers of what’s to come. (For everyone, male, female, child, or adult). Like most Feminist issues this is a Human issue. What’s bad for one is bad for all, sooner or later. The other difficulty in getting treatment to people who are suffering right now is the economic one. Many of these other treatments are not covered by insurance companies. Since the majority of the world’s poor are women and children who are underpaid or not paid at all for their work, these treatments are beyond their reach. But they are also beyond the reach of many males who do not have the financial means either. Minorities are, as usual, hit especially hard as well. Information about environmental and prescription drug reaction illness is not easily accessible to the public at large and most people who get ill do not initially even know what MCS or chemical injury even is. It’s sort of the chemical companies and pharmaceutical companies’ dirty little secret. Since most of the sufferers are “hysterical” and “crazy” women, who cares? REPLY 96. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 16, 2010 at 10:24 PM # “Since most of the sufferers are “hysterical” and “crazy” women, who cares?” This sums up perfectly my impression of why nothing is being done about these unexplained but highly debilitating conditions women suffer with. You have provided a very well-informed explanation for what I observe but feel powerless to intervene, for a number of reasons. Your suggestion for an organisation to manage patient follow-ups is an excellent one. Providing feedback to caregivers and to doctors with the intent of exciting a sense of responsibility and quality assurance could be one of the objectives of this organisation, so that care at its inception is optimised. The public health-care system here in Oz (Australia) is, from personal experience, a fair bit better than that in the States, but it is spotty. You would think that since we are all really frail humans that will require health care at some point, we would place greater focus on optimised health care rather than feeding some already over-fed film- actor or sports-figure. That would require a reality check: one that would end up paying nurses and teachers what they’re really worth and actors and sports figures what they are really worth, based on each individual’s contributions. Okay, that’s unrealistic, I’ll admit it. But part of the problem is an “I don’t care” culture. Under-paid, over-worked people cease to care, at some point. Doctors don’t care, particularly the mercenary ones. Men don’t care: it doesn’t affect them as much – if it did, believe me, they *would* care! And so, women continue to suffer. REPLY 97. yeahwesaiditFebruary 17, 2010 at 9:25 PM # To OusideLookingOver and Everyone else: The health care system in Oz Australia is a tad better than the one in the US because the health care system in every country is better than the one in the US which is no more than a panderer to profit motivated insurance corporations, pharmaceutical companies, and mechanical experimenters. (I have lived and worked all over the world – in Africa, Asia/Europe and always received better care abroad than here (and either for free or for a few bucks). There are some high end items and advancements in which the US excels but when you take the entire system as a whole, on a point for point basis, it is relatively poor. Especially if you compare it to France, Switzerland, Germany, probably Australia etc. Even if the US did have the top health care in the world in terms of treatments (as some try to suggest) it would still be a shameful system, in my opinion, because only people who can afford it have access, whereas in most countries healthcare, for better or worse, is available to all. There are a few exceptions but most countries at least provide something no matter how poor you are. Further, America is western capitalism gone to its most extreme point. Free enterprise is great but in America enterprise is not free. In many other countries any street peddler or grower can sell her goods on the street, no matter how poor she is, without paying money or getting a license but in America the shopkeepers make sure no one poorer than them can sell anything on the street, and the giant convenience store corporations make sure the small shopkeeper cannot stay in business very long either. The result is an aesthetically ugly and dead landscape catering to parking lots where people who never walk, drive, and fall into states of greater and greater inactivity and poor health. Only half in jest I say: Both America and Australia were predominantly founded by criminals. (The ones that got caught were sent to Australia, and the ones that got away went off to America.) This is in the history books. Euro-Americans slaughtered the Native Americans and brought slaves to do all the work; Euro-Australians slaughtered the indigenous Australians and did God knows what else. But my point is that a huge percent of Americans descend from criminals who didn’t get caught and now these criminals run Wall street, the banks, the health care system, the porn industry and Hollywood, the nuclear industry, the military- industrial complex, and–ha ha — even the prison-industrial complex where profit is made on locking people up for DWB (driving while black), and a host of other “unacceptable activities” like selling or growing herbs, performing midwife services and so on. There are a couple of top female gangsters in with the banksters and arms dealers, but for the most part 99% of the top dogs are men (of Euro- American-get-away-with-it-criminal-intent-descent). To them crime is the unquestioned social order itself, something totally normal, the very fabric of society, even touted as “man’s greatest achievement.” Emphasis on the *man.* This is a great part of why the health care system is mechanistic, cold, impersonal, based on competitiveness and profit, and geared primarily to the elite — or at least those with a little bit of money. Who still earn the biggest salaries as a whole? Euro-American males. REPLY 98. AliceP.February 18, 2010 at 8:56 PM # I just found this blog and it’s wonderful! Re: The “condition” that doctors can’t find. For fifteen years I had lap after lap. I would end up in the emergency room in abject agony about seven times a year. The doctors could find “nothing” I was accused of medication seeking since it usually took a huge dose of morphine and gravol to even touch the pain. Finally a stellar visiting Russian FEMALE surgeon insisted they go in with both an endo doc, and a gastro doc. After fifteen years, they did find endometriosis on my bowel, adhesions and a fallopian tube that was both attached to and twisted around my bowel. Why could they not find this before that much pain had dealt out? WHY did I and many other women like me have to endure the snarky young male interns with their “pain scale” questions. I literally at one point said I would swallow arsenic if I never had to go through it again and got the all knowing snark look from the frat boy across the room from me. The medical profession does NOT listen to women. They do not listen to our pain, they condescend to us, especially if we are god forbid “older women” *gasp!* It’s not just physical issues either. When your child has any problems what so ever the first they still do is blame the mother. Victim of abuse? It’s your fault for not leaving despite all evidence of trauma bonding, and the fact that abuse victims are beat down so badly psychologically in ever way. And despite all evidence that abusers usually run through and control all your money. It’s the wimmins fault up to and including the point of death they imply with their smirks and put downs. I’m sick of it too. I despise men. Their porn, their psychopathic bent when it comes to women, the fact that we still have to do every job ten times better than they do and still do not get either the equal pay or the recognition for it. The fact that we are only valuable to this patriarchal society if we “look” the way we are told we should and are happy to get the attention just for that. A big fat fuck you to every man who claims to be for equality but, who sits silent for this because it benefits him and because he’s not “man enough” to stand up to his “friends” or co workers. After all I’ve seen *and I work in what is politely called a domestic violence shelter* I do not like men at all, they are guilty until they prove themselves innocent for me. Too many of them contribute to the world the way it is either directly or indirectly and secretly are thrilled it’s this way. REPLY 99. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 18, 2010 at 10:15 PM # I completely agree with not only your perception, AliceP, about men who do nothing are just as guilty as men who are the perpetrators – that is *why* I am speaking up at work about this! – but also with your impression of men in general. I sit and listen to men complain about their wives/girlfriends/whoever in the changing room at work and when I try to explain what I understand might motivate a certain female behaviour, I get the “wtf, are you a f**king pansy??” and that sort of attitude. Like I care. I hate maleness more than most women even on this thread: it is a deep- seated, profound hatred of instinctual behaviour, of monochromic reactions, of pure selfishness… all classic male attributes. I hate it so much that I took female hormones in the naive thinking that I might diminish that instinct. False. Constant vigilance, close attention to how my colleagues behave and emulating *that* behaviour and changing my thinking about what is important – brick-by-brick – is finally having a small but significant effect. Oh, and obliterating the libido has helped a bit too, so I’ve continued with the hormones. So now, when I look at the medical issues (and more importantly, the apathy and prejudice) women face *without* the maleness blinders, I can appreciate just how horribly they are being treated. The worst part: women put up with it! I talk with great passion to my colleagues about this and they all look at me as if to say: “poor man, you can’t understand, this is our lot, this is what being a woman is about…”. I am probably projecting, here. They might be thinking something completely different. But their passivity, the hunched shoulders, the whimsical smiles: please tell me how I am to interpret this. I haven’t studied trauma bonding or very much psychology at all, but I truly feel that women need to feel empowered to say “you say there is nothing wrong, doctor? How do you explain pain that has doubled me over for the past three years? Is there the possibility that perhaps you haven’t made the correct diagnosis not just of me but of all those other women you and those of your profession have conveniently labelled as ‘hysterical’?” In recovery, after the idiot surgeon smugly walks away, leaving a distraught, confused patient behind him (or HER) I spend the next while – however long I can keep her in recovery – reassuring my patient that 1) she *does* have a medical condition that the surgeon just hasn’t been able to identify visually / laparoscopically and 2) to walk away from those who say there is nothing wrong when it is clear there is and find another opinion, to look at alternative medicine… to keep looking… and most importantly 3) do not give up hope. I look in her eyes, I touch her arm… and the tears and the thank yous makes coming to work harder but ever so much more important, because I’m the only one who takes the time and who cares enough. The others are too entrenched in believing medical science and believing the doctors must be right or perhaps more to the truth, apathetic – “suck it up, girlfriend!” – to give what nursing is really about: caring. Men cannot see who they are – lack of self-awareness – and so are what they are. Unfortunately, a man can never be a woman, not really. To compensate for this, a man should be listening, learning, paying close attention because of his deficits. I hate being male for exactly those reasons, and am doing everything to eradicate it from my person, but it is a bit like tearing shreds off oneself. The only thing that keeps me going is that I can do good – and I think, *am* doing good – for those that I so boundlessly admire: by caring… this makes life worth living. REPLY 100. yeahwesaiditMarch 3, 2010 at 1:31 PM # Here I am back again. Thanks to ‘deuce I have a place to vent after I encounter the inevitable jerk who will say or do some nasty shit — sooner or later–no matter how peacefully and independently I walk my carved out path. (And its creative let me tell you, the way I carve my path out — but even then — once in a while — oh well — you have to encounter the world– and in that world are those block head haters who don’t call it hating: they call it male logic, or rightness, while hysterically spewing their twisted venom.) They refuse to hear anything as it is said, or read anything as it is actually written. And then always, they will end their emotionally frenzied rant with this sentence: We need to stop being emotional about these issues. This is always directed at the female (or me) — the one who has just laid out a logical set of suggestions, theories or ideas. If I had said I was a male, or this or that, my ideas would be agreed with — indeed one attacker screamed out the name of an author everyone should read (the very author I had just been reading and making my case on) but because I had been identified (not as one of them), he attacked everything I had written. When I was patient enough to point out that this was the very author that inspired my piece and that we were perhaps in more agreement than he realized there was no recognition of misunderstanding; he simply snuffed this fact out of his brain and went on with his rant. Even the dumbest guy who can barely put a sentence together feels this smug superiority about his own “knowledge.” (No offense is meant towards people who can’t read through no fault of their own: some of the smartest people I’ve known in my life have been completely illiterate due to life circumstances beyond their control and a greedy class system that doesn’t give a shit about education for anyone except their own darling rich ass brats.) What I am talking about is people who think they know it all because they read three pages of a book and can punch the 2 key on a laptop. [“I am going 2 prov y u r wrong.”] Or there are the new brand of ‘journalists’ who can’t stop repeating the obnoxious and over used expression “Having said that, bla bla bla.” These “literates” think they have a deep, uncanny ability to see many angles of a question, while coughing up the same old shit all of us know already–as if they were running for office and wanted to give ear to multiple viewpoints. I’m usually not an elitist snob but I’ve just been attacked by a mindless blockhead so I’m regressing. Just had to have a place to vent a little. I feel better now. Thanks ‘deuce for the site. REPLY 101. jacky boyMarch 19, 2010 at 12:21 AM # Ive heard comments about how women are being surpressed by men, etc. But men are surpressed by men too. I dont know where the rules of “manliness” are being taught at, but theyre doing a poor job of doing it. For example, some of my guy friends are great men for the most part. They work hard, religious, values, etc etc. But they have such warped views of “getting women”. At a parties and such, theyll be overly aggressive and dominant in order to peak a girls intrest, and are clueless that the girl is uncomfortable. They were taught, somewhere down the line, most likely through tv, music, etc. that thats how you mack on girls. Girls are obviously being surpressed more in this case, but its not hard to see that my friends are hurting themselves too. They fight their own good nature, because thats what they think works to get girls. I heard someone on this site mention that “men being surpressed by men. THEY should fix their own problems” but, thats stupid. We all are humans, and we need to work together on this shit for it to stop. Another classic example is of the douche frat guy who looks a girl up and down and think “id f*** the s*** outta her”. Then a man walks in, and that same guy looks him up and down and thinks “id f***ing beat the s*** outta him.” Thats bullshit. I guess what im saying is, sure, its mostly men doing it. But its not most men who are doing it. The obnoxious ones stand out more. men and women are victims together in this shit. I dont know where exactly these values (or lack of) are coming from, (rap? rock? reality tv? poor male role models?) but yeah. We shouldnt widen the rift between the sexes. Which is what alot of people are doing here. REPLY 102. OutsideLookingOverMarch 19, 2010 at 1:20 AM # Jacky Boy: “I don’t know where exactly these values (or lack of) are coming from, (rap? rock? reality tv? poor male role models?) but yeah. We shouldn’t widen the rift between the sexes. Which is what a lot of people are doing here.” The rift exists, JackyBoy. It’s not being created by this site – it’s being *identified* by this site. Huge difference. If you had had a careful read of what Miss Andrist and others have said instead of being in such a hurry to comment, your question of where (these lack of) values “come from” would be answered and you might have spared yourself a bit of embarrassment. Perhaps. Keep forgetting: entitlement obliterates the sense that one *should* be embarrassed. “Man is the only animal that blushes – or needs to.” Mark Twain REPLY 103. GraceMarch 19, 2010 at 7:13 AM # Jacky boy is right in a way. I think peer pressure can eventually turn even good-natured men into jerks. Don’t underestimate the bullying men put other men through if they don’t go along with misogynistic, sexist attitudes. Not to excuse it at all, but it’s very common for men to threaten and intimidate other men who don’t fit in to gender stereotypes. Yes, ideally we should all work together, but I think it’s up to men to take responsibility for their actions and start taking other men to task for their behavior. The last thing women need is more guilt tripping for male behavior. Man up and do something about it, don’t expect us to do everything. REPLY 104. ismeMarch 19, 2010 at 1:41 PM # You know, this blog has changed me. Before reading ND’s and other’s comments, I’d never have thought someone pointing out the fact that men are also harmed by the patriarchy could be so infuriating. REPLY 105. Miss AndristMarch 19, 2010 at 3:04 PM # Jacky Boy, Lucky you. You got me to respond. I might be flattering myself, but I’d like to think that of all the people who enjoy the privilege of commenting Nine Deuce’s work, I am the least sympathetic to men and their worthless whiny infantile bullshit. Lucky you. “Ive heard comments about how women are being surpressed by men, etc.” I think you mean OPPRESSED. If you’re trying to demonstrate how incredibly unfamiliar you are with what we’re talking about, you’re off to a smashing good start. I’m surprised Nine Duece permitted your comment, frankly, but since she saw fit to do so, I’ll handle your crash course in women’s human rights. This will not be a soft landing, but if you pay attention, I’ll be happy to straighten you right the fuck out. “But men are surpressed by men too.” Oppressed. Right. Guess what? WE KNOW. Nobody here denies that men are victims of the patriarchy, too. We just have more important shit to care about. For example, like our own oppression.Which, by the way, is far more severe and far more harmful in every possible way. Newsflash: this is a feminist dialogue, meaning we’re talking about WOMEN. I’ll make this simple. Feminism is ABOUT WOMEN. You know, like civil rights is about non-whites? Males invariably interpret this to mean that feminism is against men. It’s not. It doesn’t have a goddamn thing to do with men, except insofar as men are the people doing this shit to us, and since the patriarchy has told you that the world is supposed to be all about you and you’re used to the world being all about you, you’ve got your dick tied in a knot and you probably aren’t even aware that you just barged in here and demanded that we drop what we’re doing and devote our women’s energy to men’s fucking bullshit again some more. Like we haven’t given men enough of our time and energy already? Ha ha. Well, tough titty, kitty. Barging in and trying to inject men’s concerns into feminist dialogue is known as “derailing,” and it’s an invocation of your male privilege. http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#moreimportantly Strictly for your benefit, Jacky, so you will NEVER make the mistake again: I will fight for the rights of men when men need me to. That said, go pick up a copy of John Stoltenberg’s “Refusing to Be a Man.” He documents everything you’re talking about, and he will cover the ills men do to one another. Read it cover to cover, then read it again. Then come back here and tell us what we should be doing, that we’re not. “I dont know where the rules of “manliness” are being taught at, but theyre doing a poor job of doing it.” For one thing, unless you’re talking about concepts like the equality of non-males and related topics, I earnestly could not give two shits less about whatever it is they’re supposedly failing to teach Teh Menz. Perhaps you should contact whoever it is that you think is failing to teach whatever it is you think males should learn, and tell them to step it up. Because you are barking up the wrong tree. Maybe their dads should have raised them better? A purported lack of manliness in men is not my fucking problem and I again could not possibly care less. “For example, some of my” ** PERSONAL EXPERIENCE DETECTED ** Guess what? Your personal experience does not invalidate anything anybody says here. Your personal experience is irrefutable, and thus inadmissible; it is not subject to argument, so the argument has no room for it. Did you expect you could just crap out your personal experience and the discussion would just be settled? Your unbelievable fucking conceit is either your male privilege again, or narcissism. Now, I’m willing to bet any one of us can present OUR personal experiences as if such a thing could counter YOUR personal experiences. And we’re vastly more eloquent. Your personal experience does not alter the argument in any measurable way, so can it. Argue on the merits, or put a fucking sock in it. ^_^ ” guy friends are great men for the most part.” Yannow, Jacky, patriarchal behaviors are pretty well documented and one of them happens to be men’s propensity to defend other men against women. And that’s exactly what you did there. “They work hard, religious, values, etc etc.” Religion is patriarchy and economics are patriarchy. So if the great-guy- ness of your buddies depends on their ability to integrate and succeed in the patriarchal world that dehumanizes women and ruins our fucking lives every moment of every day, you have misfired so badly that you would have been better off just skipping the great-guy part. “But they have such warped views of “getting women”.” Jacky, first off, you need to check your damn self. You can get tickets, you can get a cup of coffee, you can get a new car. You cannot get a woman. Ever. Period. And I sincerely doubt you can tell me why. “At a parties and such, theyll be overly aggressive and dominant in order to peak a girls intrest, and are clueless that the girl is uncomfortable.” (peak = pique, intrest = interest) Sounds familiar. Barging into a roomful of women, shooting off your mouth, talking shit and flagrantly displaying your privileged ignorance? Where else do we see this behavior? “They were taught, somewhere down the line, most likely through tv, music, etc. that thats how you mack on girls.” So? I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone but the females in question. And – “Girls are obviously being surpressed more in this case, but its not hard to see that my friends are hurting themselves too.” – So? Jacky, I’m going to spell it out for you. So the idiots make fools of themselves. What about the girls who are being harassed? What about when the harassment becomes unwelcome touching, groping, fondling by a d00d who refuses to interpret her signals? What about when the assault turns into rape? Nothing your buds endure will EVER be as bad as what they are doing to these females. How is their refusal to acknowledge the reactions of these non-males OUR fault? It’s not. And thus, how is it a problem WE can solve? It’s not. Their inadequacies are not our responsibility, Jacky. “They fight their own good nature, because thats what they think works to get girls.” So they’re stupid, whatever. This is still not our problem. So here’s one for you, Jacky. Why are you telling US this? When these men rape some woman, do you expect us to cut them slack? Cos, we won’t. Do you expect us to say, “Oh gee, it’s not as bad because Jacky’s friends really are nice guys,” because, we won’t. Do you think we can do anything about these idiots? Because, we can’t. The patriarchy teaches men that women have absolutely nothing of value to say – and you, by failing to read a goddamn thing anybody wrote here, demonstrated what a misogynistic gynophobe you are. Go tell these fucking males, because you have a peen. They will listen to you. They will not listen to us. Men never have, and they won’t unless you make them. “I heard someone on this site mention that “men being surpressed by men. THEY should fix their own problems” but, thats stupid. We all are humans, and we need to work together on this shit for it to stop.” Jesus. Harold. Christ. Statements like this are why I need to invent a device that allows me to punch people in the face over standard TCP/IP. Jacky? Men, thanks to the patriarchy, refuse to permit women to be human beings. Men infringe on our human right to speak, and our right to be heard. EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Yeah, we’re all human beings. But guess the fuck what? Men oppress women. Women cannot un- oppress ourselves, genius. It’s like racism – ONLY white people could un- oppress black people, get it? “Another classic example is of the douche frat guy who looks a girl up and down and think “id f*** the s*** outta her”. Then a man walks in, and that same guy looks him up and down and thinks “id f***ing beat the s*** outta him.”” Hmm. Yet more shit men do to women, followed by yet more shit men do to men. Women aren’t doing any of that, jackass, so how the fuck do you get off trying to assign us responsibility for stopping it? “Thats bullshit.” Mmhmm. So knock it the fuck off, already? That’s my advice. “I guess what im saying is, sure, its mostly men doing it.” HA HA HA HA. Pop quiz, Jacky: what exactly are women doing that men MOSTLY do it? Men rape. Men hit. Men make war, men make pollution, men make laws that make these things legal but men can never make them okay. In order for women to stop doing these things, women would have to be doing them in the first place, and we’re not. ” But its not most men who are doing it.” Right. Jacky, since you are clearly ignorant of the entire body of feminist literature, I will take a moment of my valuable time to educate you. We have a saying, and it goes like this: “Men rape.” *followed by* “Not all men rape, but all rapists are men.” Do you know what that saying means, Jacky? It means MEN RAPE. It means victims can be of any sex or gender, but it’s MEN doing the raping. Hell, men won’t even admit to what rape IS. WE KNOW. Do you actually think you know better than we do who’s doing this to us? That we aren’t acutely aware that “not all men” do this shit? If you are NOT doing this, Jacky, WHY AREN’T YOU STOPPING THEM? Why the fuck are you in here telling us which way the wind blows? Do you really think our little conversation on this little blog is more critical, or we are more wrong, than all your doodly friends and all the girls they’re harassing? CLEARLY, YOU DO. I personally believe that complacency makes you guilty of collusion, Jacky. YOU LET THEM. We don’t have the power to stop this shit, but YOU DO. When you fail to stop this shit, fail to even try, you HELP THEM. “The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. There comes a time when silence becomes betrayal.” — Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (1967) And that is why I have not a single drop of sympathy for either you or them. I only care about us, and protecting us and myself from the very real threat of harm. How is that surprising? Here’s some things to think about. PLEASE don’t answer these questions, they are strictly rhetorical, just consider. Have you ever gotten a woman to have sex with you through physical force or subtle manipulation? Have any of your pals, through physical force or subtle manipulation, ever gotten a woman to have sex with you? Have you or your homeboys ever lied to a woman to get her to consent, intimidated her out of refusing, interpreted a woman’s silence as consent, cajoled a woman until she had sex with you, ever kissed or touched a girl who didn’t want to be kissed or touched. Think of all the women you know. One in four women will have been raped at least once in her lifetime. Now think of all the d00ds you know. If every raped woman were only raped once, and every rapist rapes a dozen women, one out of sixty men rapist. Which ones are your “friends?” Whose side are you REALLY on? ” The obnoxious ones stand out more. men and women are victims together in this shit.” Hardly. Victims, yes. Together, anything but. “I dont know where exactly these values (or lack of) are coming from, (rap? rock? reality tv? poor male role models?)” Oh, please. Surely you’ve heard of the Inquisition, men burning women alive. Men have been using the weapons of rape and violence against women to terrorize women into submission since written history at least. Women are not responsible for men’s monstrosity. Men are responsible. But like most privileged, entitled asshats, you are just determined to shift the responsibility for men’s actions onto women even just a little. Whatever. “but yeah. We shouldnt widen the rift between the sexes. Which is what alot of people are doing here.” You’re right, all the rapes of women by men, the murders of women by men, all the enslavement of women by men doesn’t widen the rift – but us TALKING HONESTLY ABOUT IT!! OMG WTH!! I can’t help but notice you’re not condemning the violent hatred of women or even fucknozzles like Rush Limbaugh, so I can only presume you’re okay with what men say about women. Google misogyny, maybe spend 10 minutes perusing urban dictionary, then come back here and tell us WE are the problem. Frankly, Jacky, we have spent AT LEAST six thousand years coddling and nurturing teh menz and we’re still getting raped to death and beaten to death by teh menz. I really don’t think focusing on men’s bullshit is going to help this generation any more than it helped any of the generations that preceded us. BY THE WAY You are aware that you, through your behavior, are proof incarnate of this blog post – right? -Miss Andrist Lover of Men REPLY 106. GraceMarch 19, 2010 at 6:28 PM # Miss Andrist and Isme, I feel a bit sheepish for trying to see an upside to jacky’s post. I think it’s just an example of how women (me included) have been so browbeaten that we feel we have to be super nice to the men who say they want men and women to work together, like if they’re not bashing us we should feel grateful for some small morsel of humanity. Jacky, I would take Miss Andrist’s advice and read Jon Stoltenberg’s book. Also a book by a Jack Holland called Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice. Stoltenberg and Holland are men who have stepped up to the plate and taken their fellow men to task for man’s inhumanity to woman. Men who act like grown ups, not sniveling, whining little boys. REPLY 107. roesmokerMarch 21, 2010 at 9:15 PM # Jacky, We know. Men are hurt by the patriarchy too. Because part of the masculine function is to kill and oppress all creatures weaker than the male, every living being on this planet suffers under the patriarchy. Just because every single post on this blog doesn’t talk about it doesn’t mean we are unaware of this fact. But we are being killed. We can’t be responsible for taking care of men when women are dying. Men need to do it for themselves. Whether you mean to or not, you are derailing the conversation. I’m not saying that you should shut up about it, but this is not the place. Feel free to start your own blog to rally feminist men. REPLY 108. jackyMarch 22, 2010 at 9:59 PM # Derailing? barging in and demanding? People, this is AN INTERNET SITE. I didnt ask anything Andrist. I left a comment on an fucking public internet blog. I didnt blow up fem-headquarters here. De-railing? is your train that sensitive that a 3 paragraph comment knocks your train off its tracks? First off, Andrist said , “I personally believe that complacency makes you guilty of collusion, Jacky. YOU LET THEM. We don’t have the power to stop this shit, but YOU DO. When you fail to stop this shit, fail to even try, you HELP THEM.” If you are NOT doing this, Jacky, WHY AREN’T YOU STOPPING THEM? Why the fuck are you in here telling us which way the wind blows? Do you really think our little conversation on this little blog is more critical, or we are more wrong, than all your doodly friends and all the girls they’re harassing? CLEARLY, YOU DO. *STUPID ASSUMPTION DETECTED* CLEARLY? clearly. How are you gonna invent what I did at the end of my story, then say “CLEARLY” in bold. like, I high fived my doodley buddy. How are you gonna assume how I live my life, and say “CLEARLY HE DOES THIS”? Andrist, I did stop them. I specifically stopped my friend that night. I pulled his ass of that girl. Then I told him what the fuck was up. I DO try and stop this shit. This really pissed me off and I wanted to call you out on your generalizations of male behaviors. God, dont go to law school. Secondly, you keep saying “its not my problem” wrong. its actually not MY problem that women are treated like shit. Cause mens problems dont compare at all. I never tried to compare them in my comment too. I just said that they existed. Of course womens issues are a million times worse than men. But I am a man, and I havent experienced it. So, I wrote about what I know better than you (gasp!). What its all like from a males perspective. Now you mentioned you dont give a shit. haha, okay true. My mistake people, I just thought that this was close enough topic. My comment has relevance to sexism. I know theyre different, but damn… use your fucking imaginations its not that far off. Plus, so many of these comments are the same. Andrist, you could prolly write the jist of them all in like 8 separate comments. But not mine! “It’s like racism – ONLY white people could un-oppress black people, get it?” I get it. but i cant even name a white activist. All white people did was bitch about shit slightly less and less for like a hundred years. Its not fair for women, but saying men should rise up and fix themselves is retarded. Im a realist. This isnt elf world. Theyre not gonna. It sucks and Im sorry. Im sure you have a shitty enough opinion about men to believe this. Blacks, women, jews, Native Americans, Mayans,etc pretty much everyone has been oppressed, and white men never really did stuff ever to help. When has anyone given anyone else more power? never. its human, or fuck, i guess male nature. So what do you want Andrist? do you want me to fix stuff with a wave of my magic dick? i cant. My appeal doesnt even cross racial lines. Shits not that simple. So yes, i guess “assigned” with my awesome powers of persuasion, the aid of wimmenz to aid me in my nobel quest. REPLY 109. OutsideLOMarch 23, 2010 at 3:35 AM # Men oppress women. Men who don’t but who condone / sanction / support a social system that does are just as guilty as the rapist, the abuser, the guy who allows his gender to get him into a position over a similarly qualified woman. Abdicating one’s resposibilities doesn’t absolve. Crap on all you want, mate… as soon as you said ” Its not fair for women, but saying men should rise up and fix themselves is retarded.” you were abdicating. And pretty much giving Miss Andrist valid reasons to thin out masculinity as she sees fit. I for one support her. D00d, you are doing your level best to give men a worse name they already have…nice work! REPLY 110. Miss AndristMarch 23, 2010 at 9:25 AM # Jacky, Check your privilege, I can’t do it for you. Stop being a pathetic male crying about your achy little peepee and learn to stop making a fool of yourself; I will stop ridiculing you when you stop deserving it. Miss Andrist REPLY 111. GraceMarch 23, 2010 at 9:25 AM # Jacky, You said that these guys you know are ‘basically good guys’ who have a warped view of getting women, that they don’t see when a woman is getting uncomfortable at his aggressive advances. Why come to a feminist site and rail against women who might see things differently, who wouldn’t see someone as a basically good guy if they do the shit you described? There have been quite a few white people in history who’ve fought against slavery and racism. The women’s suffrage movement in the U.S. actually grew out of the early abolitionist movement. And there have been men who have stood up and fought against misogyny and the oppression of women, too. Do you think Frederick Douglass, John Stuart Mill, James Mott, Henry Blackwell, or William Lloyd Garrison were ‘retarded’ men? If even one-tenth of the energy you spent spewing your anger at the posters here was directed at your good guy friends, maybe you’d make some progress. If you think it’s a lost cause, why even come here? What did you hope to accomplish? REPLY 112. jackyMarch 23, 2010 at 9:37 PM # I was never angry until I got called names, had my shit spun every which way, and had 2 better comments blocked for no reason. It hurt me and my pee pee’s feelings… I only told one story of a friend, btw. He stuck out because he was more severe, and it “woke me up” to it. I know everyone has different standards for “good guys” and everyone’s opinion of “good” is different. Honestly, I dont have much credibility anymore, but I said he was good. Andrist said stories are infallible. I only said “hes good, despite x” you have to take my word for this. Can it be possible for someone to be good overall, and have a distorted view on flirting? (Cause his shitty flirting never gets attracts, and no, he wouldnt rape) if yes, than you have no choice to believe me. Dammit, and im sorry, I meant to put this passage in quotes …saying “men should rise up and fix themselves” is retarded. (Like somone was musing) What I meant is, thats wishful thinking for any fast paced scale that men are gonna do shit alone. The best women can hope for is as little feet dragging as possible for equal rights. Again, this is not right. But its prolly the way its gonna happen. So, when I said “we should do something”. I didnt assign responsibilities. (I also just suggested, not assigned) I said we because, you’re ALREADY fighting for your rights (like on this site). But there are some guys fighting too, hence the “we”. I didnt mean to call Ol’ Frederich “retarded” either. I dont think its hopeless. My overall point was, like in the way, way begining, Is that working together is good, and its the only way itll work. Because not every man IS hopeless, or wrong, because some of us hate it too. Causing rifts between sexes though… like the generalizations, the spun opinions, the assumptions, and even some hypocrisy, that are on this site. is bad. because its detrimental to the cause, and SHIT WILL GO SLOWER. REPLY 113. AlinaMay 14, 2010 at 4:15 PM # @ND I red all of this post and I have been in similar situations many many times actually in situations much worse where you could cut the sexism spoken by those men was so thick and fat you could of cut it through with a knife….. Why didnt you tell him to shut up as you was in the plane though??I do stuff like that alot and afterwards I am quite happy about you can tell from their reaction they well did not expect it. Sure the situation can blow out of proportion but in that plane I think it would of been safe for you to tell him to shut his piehole…..surely that also makes a point for us women that we dont take everything and that we stand up for ourselfs. REPLY 114. SophieMay 26, 2010 at 3:04 AM # Duuuuudette! Just replying to a wicked comment upstream. That dude who commented about having his butterfly moment by becoming a douchebag Alpha male? Total “Nice Guy ™ and I was really pleased to see many commenters shrewdly pointed that out. So impressed by this post. Masculinity and gender roles are a plague upon us all. REPLY 115. menaretrashMay 26, 2010 at 5:21 PM # U dunno how badly I hate men…. I have no mercy on them, I and I WILL make sure they know is AND feel it hurts (just like they hurt me since I was a kid). Pay back is a betch. They’re a waste of genetic material and hope eventually society will just go without them (hehehe, think: a skeleton in a museum will be the only place where Humans (this doesn’t include “males”) will be able to see them! :]]]] I heard Y chromosome is disappearing from human genome…. good. REPLY 116. menaretrashMay 26, 2010 at 5:25 PM # PS: hehehe… since Y chromosome is gradually disappearing from human genome…. does it mean we should freeze some men now for future people to at least know what they looked like LOL? like a frozen mammoth lol. bye- bye males!!! REPLY 117. JamesMay 27, 2010 at 2:36 AM # No, that’s obvious nonsense. REPLY 118. OutsideLookingOverMay 27, 2010 at 3:59 AM # “I heard Y chromosome is disappearing from human genome…. good.” Best news I’ve had all day. I’d be delighted to somehow expunge it from my system as well. REPLY 119. AlinaMay 27, 2010 at 5:24 PM # @James whats obvious nonsense? Also I checked out your website….. I got 2 questions are you from England? And what do you think about viewing porn in a relationship? REPLY 120. JamesMay 28, 2010 at 4:16 AM # How the hell could the Y chromosome disappear from the human genome? In repsonse to your questions: Yes. I think that’s common. REPLY 121. ismeMay 28, 2010 at 7:14 AM # The Y chromosome could, theoretically disappear, but I saw some males the other day on the train, so I don’t think it has yet. REPLY 122. GraceMargaretMay 28, 2010 at 10:46 AM # This might help: http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=51 The Y chromosome apparently has shrunk over time and lost over 1000 genes and is now down to 78. REPLY 123. ImaginaryJune 15, 2010 at 9:52 AM # I have to say that this post probably saved my life a few months back. I was getting ready to kill myself, but I had to pass the time until my parents went to sleep, and I stumbled across this page. WHOO! ND for the win! REPLY 124. sarahJune 16, 2010 at 12:51 AM # I loved this blog. I HATE MEN TOO. They are Selfish Self-centered pigs, with my father in law being the prime example. I hate him w/ a passion. He treats his wife like shit, disrespects her all the time and expects her to do everything for him. He expects a parade everytime u see his nasty crancky face…she has to cook clean and pick up after him like an f— ing baby,,,He once embarressed me infront of other guests, because I didnt clean up after his son,,,he could go back to the cave he came from,,,I couldn’t at first believe he was talking to me like that but put him in his f,,,ing place…He is a control frick, he demanded like an f—ing baby for his name to be passed on,,I can’t stand his uneducated worthless and ignorant face,,,We as women allow these low lives to keep treating us like crap,,,enough is enough.. REPLY 125. Miss AndristJune 16, 2010 at 2:08 PM # @Sarah: You were doing fine until the patriarchy sneaked in with “We as women allow -” because that’s a great big fat wad of patriarchy-approved d00dshit (and what’s worse than d00dshit?) We don’t “allow” jack fucking squat, they do it to us and refuse to allow us to speak or be heard such as to get them to stop. And women who fail to run screaming from males probably do so because we are decent human beings who can’t bring ourselves to abandon OTHER human beings to their tender mercies. ^_^ Just clarifying. I hate when the patriarchy finds ways to make us responsible in some teensy tiny way for the shit men do to us. REPLY 126. truthvscomplianceJune 16, 2010 at 3:57 PM # Yeah we don’t “allow” men to behave like egocentric penis wrinkles – they insist on it. REPLY 127. JamesJune 16, 2010 at 4:26 PM # Now now. I, for one, find penis wrinkles rather fetching. REPLY o RedRobinOctober 4, 2014 at 12:08 AM # We’re sure you do. Now move to the Castro, suck the first convenient anonymous cock, and start policing what women’s bodies should look like and what size we should be as if you know even the slightest fuck about it. Patriarchy makes it easy, even for gay men. Announce your white gay maleness and funding for your little frock atelier would be complete. Meanwhile that lesbian Mexican-American woman’s dream of running her own smaller, more relevant business continues unfunded. REPLY 128. GraceMargaretJune 16, 2010 at 6:26 PM # Imaginary, I’m very glad you decided to stay up late and happened upon this blog. I know how you feel. Nine Deuce truly rocks, this blog helps me keep my sanity. Sarah, I have witness this crap myself with older female relatives growing up. I don’t think you meant to blame women for ‘letting’ men being assholes. But what would happen if you or your mother-in-law decided not to clean up after the men anymore? Just let the shit pile up and let them whine and complain all they want? Maybe I’m wrong, but I get the feeling from your description of your father-in-law that he would probably retaliate in a scary way. When I was sixteen I stayed w/ my older cousin and her husband for two weeks for summer vacation. Not only did my cousin work two waitressing jobs but she was also the only one responsible for all the housework and childcare. Her husband went out w/ his friends when he wasn’t working at his one job, and the grandparents took care of the kids while she was at work. And to top it all off, he actually screamed at her in front of me after doing an actual WHITE GLOVE TEST to see if she dusted properly. I could not believe my eyes. And he was actually really fun and nice to be around at family gatherings, I never suspected that this was what happened behind closed doors. That was when I decided that I would NEVER get married or have kids. There was no way I’d get caught up in that shit. And the social pressure in my family and ethnic community to get married is incredibly strong, so I know that if I don’t get married soon I’ll be branded a spinster loser and people will wonder what’s ‘wrong’ with me. But at this point I could care less. It’s not worth it. They can call me all the names they want, snicker at me behind by back/in front of my face. I will not be a fucking slave to anyone. REPLY 129. OutsideLookingOverJune 17, 2010 at 4:42 AM # “James June 16, 2010 at 4:26 PM Now now. I, for one, find penis wrinkles rather fetching.” Strange place for you to be advertising for that sort of thing, James. But I guess the word “inappropriate” holds relatively little meaning for you. REPLY 130. JamesJune 17, 2010 at 12:20 PM # We should be selective in what terms are used as insults, that is all. REPLY 131. Miss AndristJune 17, 2010 at 3:05 PM # @James: You and Andrew alike. Did it not occur to you that we’re choosing to use male genitalia as insulting by matter of deliberate choice? I sure as shit do. After a lifetime of hearing “pussy,” “cunt,” “twat,” et cetera ad infinitum and knowing that I will have to explain why it’s not fucking okay to say “Dallas Cowgirls” by way of insult, I make up phrases like “shut up and take it like a woman,” “stop being such a whiny little boy about it,” and “you cry like a man” – for good fucking reason. Same goes for “penis wrinkle,” “dickfoot,” and “fucknozzle.” Did it ever occur to you that we LIVE on the losing end of the language divide? I’ll start defending the rights of men when men need me to. Until then, I do not have time or energy or interest. Like I told Andrew, where the fuck do you get off trying to enforce some kind of bullshit fairness rule that only serves to silence and restrain us? We don’t enjoy any fairness from men at any point, and you have the entire rest of the world to take it out on us. (Fuck, dude, you have the privilege of barging onto a feminist blog and using your REAL NAME. Must be nice.) I have to say, though, the implication that shit rolls sideways, let alone uphill, is fucking hilarious. -Miss Andrist REPLY 132. JamesJune 17, 2010 at 7:03 PM # Yes, of course that occurs to me. I get where you are coming from. Do you really want to start emulating those you despise, though? Seems a tad self-loathing to me, no? Personally I am in no way opposed to dick wrinkles. This aligns me with the rest of the deviants from gender norms, and thus would see me frowned upon by a fair number of reactionaries. The same reactionaries yr. struggle is largely against, as it happens. REPLY 133. sarahJune 27, 2010 at 1:12 PM # Hi GraceMargaret: Thanks for your comments, my ethnic background also places strong pressure on women to get married and start a family. But as a mom, I urge you into re-evaluating if u really don’t waant kids. There is no other feeling of love like the on eu feel for ur kids. Trust me, I don’t love or like too many ppl. But u will feel a genuine love from both sides, something an asshole of a man can never give you… REPLY 134. joyJune 27, 2010 at 7:49 PM # GraceMargaret, no. Read some articles about pregnancy and childbirth on factcheckme’s blog (if you read this, I hope it’s okay, fcm) if you want to know the truth about “having kids.” For one thing, it can physically kill you. For another, even if you survive, it ruins your body forever, and not only in a P2K-compliance way. Here’s an example. I was only pregnant for 3.5 months, a year ago, and I still can’t walk right — my arches flattened and now my feet hurt all the time. And the pregnancy damaged my pelvic nerves, so my vagina is just a numb tube of muscle. I can’t feel a damn thing in there. If you want, I can go on, and start bringing in other women’s experiences too. If you think you don’t wanna have kids, you don’t wanna have kids, and nobody should force or pressure you. In terms of love: You can also get unconditional love from a cat, dog, mouse, reptile (I think), horse, monkey, domestic pig, goat … or from the right kind of female friends. sarah, pregnancy isn’t all about baby bumps, the made-up “satisfied glow”, cute clothes, and instant maternal bonds. Some people should never be mothers. Some people resent their children. Some people get postpartum depression. Some people just don’t want kids. Good job coming onto a feminist blog and spouting the same old shit to women who are trying to have solidarity away from the patriarchy. Also, good luck getting pregnant without the help of “some asshole of a man.” I hear that’s tricky. REPLY 135. AndrewJune 28, 2010 at 2:02 AM # Miss Andrist, The reason I brought up “fairness” was because this whole blog seems be aimed at curing (or at least discussing) injustices, especially the kinds women face. Injustice is really nothing more than people being treated unfairly; i.e., if it were just, it would be fair, and visa versa. If the rule you intend to espouse is not one of fairness, but one of “we are going to do whatever the fuck we want so get over it,” then I fully support it. It’s a rule I have been playing by for some time now and I would encourage you to try it. The only problem with it is that if one is the weaker party in a certain scenario, as women oft are, that rule tends to work against them. When I posted earlier, I only wanted to point out that it’s hard to sympathize with those who complain about injustices when they have no actual interest in doing justice (read: treating people fairly) themselves. If you want to continue arguing that jokes about male genital mutilation (which actually does occur) is still fair by way of your self declared (and convenient) lack of privilege, I feel obligated to point out that privilege cuts many different ways, not just between women and men. In fact, the supposition of a gender dichotomy arguably reinforces the privileges you claim to resent. How does this hierarchy of privilege even actually work? Do black women get to make jokes about white women? Do disabled women get one up on the black women? Are gay women allowed to target disabled women? Where do bisexuals fit in? How gay does a man have to be before he is less privileged than a white woman? How ugly does someone have to be before they trump all of them? I would like to see how these privileges, or the lack thereof, add up; that way I know who is allowed to target who, and on what basis, before calling them out for being hypocrites. In short, pretending that privileges can somehow be ranked, whereupon insults will be justly issued in accordance with those rankings, is laughable. If you are going to argue for fair treatment then you have to treat others the way you expect to be treated. If you aren’t, then you have to be prepared to accept the consequence of not always be on the right side of the power differential. Anything else is unprincipled. It’s really that simple. REPLY 136. berrybladeJune 29, 2010 at 12:04 AM # Andrew, You lack of ability to grasp concepts/”get it” never ceases to amaze me. Get a grip hey. REPLY 137. OutsideLookingOverJune 29, 2010 at 5:48 AM # Andrew, You are the prime example of how male entitlement blinds, and blinds completely. You won’t ever “get it”, as BerryBlade put it. I would feel sorry for you, but for the fact that your state and that of your brethren put women in such an awful place. There’s no excuse for non-enlightenment: you are blind by choice. And that choice is called bigotry. REPLY 138. tdboydsingsJuly 15, 2010 at 11:08 AM # Love your blog. My immediate supervisor is a male and has kept me from moving up or learning what the boss has given me to do. So far he’s conivingly covered his tracks as he sets me up to fail. His passive agressivness leads me to believe he is truly an ass hole. REPLY 139. LoseMyMindJuly 23, 2010 at 8:31 AM # So glad I found this post. You all will get a kick out of this story. Yesterday I’m walking in the park looking for this open mic place I was supposed to perform at. I was having trouble finding it because the park is so big. I end up seeing a lady that I know and at first I didn’t recognize her, but heard her calling my name. Once she took her sunglasses off I recognized her and then said hello. We were sort of far off from each other and she’s kind of soft spoken so when I heard her faintly say, “this is where we work out.” I said, “oh you’re working out?” to make sure I heard her correctly. She was with her husband and a group of people. After I repeated what she said to me, this asshole guy out of no where says, “well yeah…that’s what it looks like doesn’t it?” in this smart alack tone. I didn’t know the man, never saw him in my life and he talks to me that way. So I look at her and her husband like, “who the f&*k is this?” They then proceeded to tell me that he is their trainer. So then he says, “yeah, I’m the trainer that’s why I’m talking so cocky.” Meanwhile, I’m thinking to myself that ‘cocky’ just doesn’t describe it for me. Asshole to the highest order is much closer but still barely scratches the surface. So then he comes up to shake my hand, which I was being nice by shaking his hand and then he proceeds to say, “no baby give me a real hand shake like a business deal.” What a f&*king bastard! I couldn’t believe him and everyone was just sitting there as though his behavior is perfectly normal. Now, if a woman had acted like that she would’ve gotten scolded by everyone around…both her female counterparts and other males. But a man can just be a complete asshole without cause to another woman that he’s never even met before and no one so much as flinches. INCREDIBLE!!! This example right here is all too often the norm in my life and is one of the quad druple drillions of reasons why I personally am on the threshold of hating men myself. REPLY 140. EdithJuly 25, 2010 at 11:02 AM # Okay. I’m 13. And one might say that it’s too early to determine officially wether or not i hate men-most anyway. But i agree with everything said. I feel like women are always in the sub role. And i don’t understand how some of them take being there. I’ll die before a man suppresses me. REPLY 141. kristinaAugust 8, 2010 at 11:15 PM # meh..I’m admittedly a man-hater, but a test I took online…a real one…not fake, said I’m egalitarian… POO….guess I’m not a man hater after all…oh well… REPLY 142. nightwispAugust 14, 2010 at 7:17 AM # Not too many 22-year old, curvy, blue-eyed blonde girls hate men. Wonder why? ;) You have a great venting place here, and I hate men, too. Not all of them, of course. Men place a value on females by virtue of the female’s looks and youth. Even fat, ugly men judge women by their looks, and sexual attractiveness. And, no, even after they get to know a homely women the guys will still disrespect her, and hate her. It’s all about youth and beauty to get a guy’s respect, attention, and, yes, even love. Thats why cosmetics are still a billion dollar business. Women want to look good for themselves? Bullshit! Without a man’s approval women still do not go anywhere in this world. Not far, anyway. REPLY 143. GraceMargaretAugust 14, 2010 at 10:55 PM # “Not too many 22-year old, curvy, blue-eyed blonde girls hate men.” Can you back up this statement? I think women who are considered sexually desirable get the worst as far as hatred and violence from men. They’re status symbols to their masculinity, so when they get rejected by a curvy 22-year-old blue-eyed blonde, look out. They’ll hold a grudge and take it out on every woman they meet for the rest of their lives. I was the geeky girl growing up and guys were really nice to me for the most part, and even acted like protective big brothers. I was sexually non-threatening and cool ‘for a girl’. Once I started, shall we say, ‘blossoming’, boy did that change! That’s when I started to understand why so many women seemed to dislike and distrust men. REPLY 144. RianAugust 15, 2010 at 9:45 AM # Not too many 22-year old, curvy, blue-eyed blonde girls hate men. Wonder why? They usually can’t afford to. It’s all about youth and beauty to get a guy’s respect, attention, and, yes, even love. Youth and beauty inspire neither respect nor love. They inspire covetousness, a desire to possess, to mark, like a dog at a fire hydrant. REPLY 145. kristinaAugust 15, 2010 at 1:56 PM # GraceMargaret- It’s not even about our point of view as women(in society), so whether or not these beautiful women hate men is not really the point…the point is the “power” these women are perceived to have and whether or not they recognize it for what it really is…not “real” power…Sure there are beautiful women who don’t fall victim to societal thinking of power tripping on their own cursed beauty, but it doesn’t mean they don’t receive benefits from it. They may feel bad about said benefits, they may be feminists trying to abolish these benefits, but only when they reject men, do they feel the hatred of the “ugly” woman. I’m not saying I disagree with you or that you can’t be a “true” feminist if you are “beautiful”…it just may be harder to see the benefits you receive as a beautiful woman as compared to those that aren’t considered “beautiful” by male standards.. I’m sorry I’m playing a little bit of devil’s advocate here, and I’m completely sure you get it or you wouldn’t be here…just pointing out how beautiful women fall victim to the patriarchy which was the real point to the comment you were objecting to…sorry…carry on… REPLY 146. joyAugust 15, 2010 at 6:59 PM # “Youth and beauty inspire neither respect nor love. They inspire covetousness, a desire to possess, to mark, like a dog at a fire hydrant.” Rian, I want to calligraph this and put it on my fucking wall. REPLY 147. JAugust 18, 2010 at 2:41 PM # I just stumbled upon this … and wow. I wish we’d had the guts to be this honest in my fem theory courses. I have to say, it helps that you obviously have a real affinity/knack for language. This was a fantastic breakdown. Go you. REPLY 148. YahhhAugust 24, 2010 at 5:17 AM # I once had an argument with an MRA. He was ranting how most women are [insert list of bad qualities]. It was actually identical to your list for men actually. Third sentence of the post. I then asked him if his sister fit that list. He said his sister was the rare exception, and his female friends were nothing like that, but “most other women are”. Funny, my sister is awesome, and so is my mother, I told him. What are the odds? We two happen to have been born related to the only women on the planet who don’t fit that list? Wow, what are the odds? We should play the lottary! [end sarcasm] You see my sarcasm to him there, but it pointed that it might be his perception of women that’s the culprit. Because he’s perfectly capable of seeing how good all the women he’s related to are. Yet all the women he doesn’t know (the mystical “women” out there) seem to fit his bad list? Now, if you ask any guy on the planet, what his sister,mom or female friends are like… They’ll all tell you they’re awesome (“unlike other women”). Isn’t that impossible? I pointed out? How is that every guy has an awesome sister, but he also thinks most other woman are [insert your list of bad qualities]. If everyone’s mother and sister are great and not [list of bad qualities], then how can the statement most women are [list of bad qualities] -> how can this statement be true? It can’t. Its impossible. All women are someone’s friend, sister, mother or neighbour. So can the statement “most women are” be true then? It can’t. The further irony is that… He was perfectly capable of criticizing women’s claims. He said that women who claimed “most men are [list of bad qualities]” – (in his words) generalizing and purposefully distorting their perception to fit “most men” into their stereotype. Isn’t that odd? He is able to see it in women who make such generalized claims, but he can’t see it in himself. He’s doing the exact same thing… That he accuses women of doing. He was able to go at length in giving me examples to back up his misogyny… And how women have mistreated him, and all kinds of “stats” that with his MRA worldview. He could go on for hours and spout thousands of “arguments” to “back up” his misogyny… Yet he couldn’t see past the fact that it simply didn’t add up. None of the women he’s closely related to fits that list, yet “most women are [list of bad qualities]”. The human psyche is amazing in how it allows one to reaffirm their own bias and beliefs, and find “evidence”… for their own worldview. REPLY 149. ismeAugust 24, 2010 at 11:49 PM # “Now, if you ask any guy on the planet, what his sister,mom or female friends are like… They’ll all tell you they’re awesome (“unlike other women”).” Not in my experience, MRAs don’t seem to mind villifying their female relatives as far as I’ve seen. Admittedly, though, I’ve rarely seen them confronted on this point. REPLY 150. RianAugust 25, 2010 at 3:30 PM # Not in my experience, MRAs don’t seem to mind villifying their female relatives as far as I’ve seen That is my experience as well. I’ve found that what a man says about “his” women depends largely on his audience. REPLY 151. YahhhAugust 25, 2010 at 4:53 PM # I’ve been debating MRAs for years now. And most MRAs (just like most feminists) will claim their sister/mother is awesome… They might criticize relatives like “mother in law, cousin” or “brother’s wife”… I.e. women they have no close connection to. I don’t wanna be all magic-bulletey, but most misogyny comes out of having no close relations to women. To believe that “most women are [list of bad qualities”, you literally need to have lived a life where you only have superficial relations with women, and never got to meet any on a deeper, meaningful level. Most develop misoginy by seeing women as object, that they never actually meet as persons. Usually their sister/mother or a childhood female friend is the only one they’ve known on a deep level, so they’re able to see those women as they are. REPLY 152. pollyAugust 26, 2010 at 1:08 AM # There was a dude over here called Raoul Moat who was an MRA incarnate. He killed his ex’s new b/f and shot her, raped and beat up every woman he was ever involved with and then finally shot himself in a field when the police caught up with him after he went on the run. Strangely his brother blames their MOTHER for Moat’s actions. And says she should be ‘burnt at the stake’. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jul/17/raoul-moat-brother-angus-moat REPLY 153. pollyAugust 26, 2010 at 1:13 AM # Not too many 22-year old, curvy, blue-eyed blonde girls hate men Simply a misogynist statement. When I was young enough to receive constant unwanted male attention (and you don’t need to be curvy, blonde, blue eyed, just young mostly) I fucking hated it. I was still a dyke when I was 17 that’s why. REPLY 154. AndrewAugust 26, 2010 at 9:43 AM # I agree with Yahhh. The type of men who will go the furthest in vilifying women as women are typically men who know nothing about them. REPLY 155. RianAugust 26, 2010 at 3:25 PM # I don’t wanna be all magic-bulletey, but most misogyny comes out of having no close relations to women. As most MRAs have such good relationships with their mothers and sisters according to you, this would seem to be demonstrably false. If a man needs to know a woman well before he decides he doesn’t hate her, that’s still misogyny. REPLY 156. kristinaAugust 26, 2010 at 3:46 PM # Isn’t that odd? He is able to see it in women who make such generalized claims, but he can’t see it in himself. He’s doing the exact same thing… That he accuses women of doing. He was able to go at length in giving me examples to back up his misogyny… And how women have mistreated him, and all kinds of “stats” that with his MRA worldview. He could go on for hours and spout thousands of “arguments” to “back up” his misogyny… Yet he couldn’t see past the fact that it simply didn’t add up. None of the women he’s closely related to fits that list, yet “most women are [list of bad qualities]“. I as a feminist certainly wouldn’t claim that my father is the exception to the rule… He didn’t go out of his way to make my life miserable (like MRA’s believe about women and thus proving their narcissism), but he didn’t bring anything at all to the table that I can remember. I can accept that he and other men aren’t purposely out there to hurt me, but in their self-gratification lost the ability to see and react to reality, a realm that I am very much a part of…so it’s less lack of action than it is a lack of action in reality. MRA’s base their claims in their perception (subjective) of what is moral (subjective), thus providing no basis in reality. Feminists base their claims on their perception (subjective) of events (fact). MRA’s do tend to use statistics, but I would venture to say that social roles inhibit the ability to live in a subjective morality as we are socialized to accept different things as moral based on our gender roles. Sense the circular reasoning? Yes, that is exactly the point.. those of us adhering to gender roles are not basing our views in an objective reality. REPLY 157. pollyAugust 27, 2010 at 2:02 AM # I think you are both confusing cause and effect. If you are misogynist, you are unlikely to have many female friends for the obvious reason that you’re not usually friends with people you hate. However Raoul Moat had a mother and a succession of girlfriends who he beat up and raped (ie did have close relations with women) and was still misogynist. It’s very rare to find a man who was brought up in an all male environment after all. REPLY 158. Miss AndristAugust 27, 2010 at 5:25 AM # nightwisp: “Not too many 22-year old, curvy, blue-eyed blonde girls hate men. Wonder why? ;)” I did. Still do. Guess I don’t count. Oh, wait. My eyes aren’t blue. My bad. Your misogynistic list of characteristics redeem a non-male to men (appeal as a masturbation puppet) describes me without error. Men still hate me as efficiently as humanly possible. They do just as much horrible shit to me, individually and as a whole, as they do to women who fail to meet men’s standard of sexual utility. The infinite repertoire of benevolent and malicious misogyny to which I am subjected may differ from the experiences of the women you imagine you’re talking to, but the differences are strictly superficial. If men were actually sex-crazed, feral beasts, I’d either have power over them (I don’t) or be in extra, disproportionate, particular danger from them (I’m not.) Hell, if men were even a fraction as consistent in their definitions of women’s sexual utility as you suggest such as to provide a standard before they withhold basic human rights from us for failing to adhere to their demands, we’d at least be free of the fucking moving target, right? And that’s not the case. Rian is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. My physical characteristics have never won me any man’s respect, admiration, or anything remotely resembling love. I’ve been lusted after, men have gotten into fights over who owns me, I modelled (in addition to other shit) and men hated that I am painfully, brilliantly intelligent, articulate, educated, self-sufficient, self- aware. It runs exactly contrary to their expectation for how I should be according to my appearance (somewhere between doll and waif?) and how I am in reality (it’s like hugging a porcupine.) Just in case you still thought you were right – as a web dev I get a lot of my jobs without clients having any idea what I look like. I am hired strictly because I am a brainiac with impressive chops; I can remote in so it’s long after I’m hired, if ever, that people who hire me find out what I look like. Chew on that. -Miss Andrist Lover of Men REPLY o SandyAugust 8, 2014 at 3:04 PM # Brilliantly Intelligent, and you’re a mere web dev? How’s that work? REPLY 159. kristinaAugust 27, 2010 at 3:25 PM # Polly, I’m talking deeper than cause and effect…I’m talking psychology, which may get me shot around here… but, I find truth in it and I haven’t turned into a misogynist yet…*gulp* I can argue cause and effect to a man all I want, it will not point out the inconsistencies in his thought process (the thing he holds so dear, as if it was the standard). I find the best way to point out inconsistencies is to be able to pick up on the subtle cues that a knowledge of psychology gives. One word can change the entire sentence in logical terms. Take for instance: All men are deadbeat fathers (illogical since not all men are fathers) vs. Men are deadbeat fathers. One word changed the entire semantics of the argument, and one could argue that the word “all” in the first instance was a Freudian slip. REPLY 160. LindaAugust 27, 2010 at 7:57 PM # I’m not sure if I hate men or just don’t understand them. I’ve never met a guy that I can say was a “really good man”. Not ever. Dating and my one marriage have been disappointing experiences. Feminism enlightened us but never provided solutions or strategies to the problem of patriarchy. I honestly would love to meet a man to love and be loved by. But alas I’m an educated woman with professional goals. It seems that the more driven I am professionally and intellectually, the less attractive I am to men. Or maybe it’s my short hair and the fact that it’s not blonde. Or maybe it’s simply because I’m not 22 anymore. Whatever the reason, it is disappointing I have to admit. But I keep living my life and creating my own future. And I have to say that my life without a male partner is not so bad. In fact, I sometimes get the feeling that I’m happier than most of the married people I know. Go figure. REPLY 161. kristinaAugust 27, 2010 at 10:16 PM # Linda, I’m not going to bullshit you and say you’ll find a good man one day sweetie… ughhh… One thing I’ve learned from dating and marriage that I try to pass on to all my non-feminist friends (which has cost me a friend recently) is to NEVER give up on YOU work on yourself until you are in a happy place without men…love yourself, and NEVER compromise your values for anyone (which also means giving in to pressure around you and failing yourself). If you find a man who finds this attractive, Great…if not, it doesn’t really matter does it, as long as you are truly happy. I may not be happy all the time in my marriage, but it has come a long way through hard work to not be miserable….and most of this was because I didn’t know myself, I hadn’t fully matured into the ideals I have today. I would have had a much easier time if I had time to know me and love me. I think that is the mistake a lot of marriages make…compromise before you get into marriage leads to growth apart because you’re not being true to yourself (given that it is not an abusive relationship…otherwise all bets are off.) REPLY 162. LindaAugust 29, 2010 at 1:03 PM # On choosing to be single: Sometimes I think it’s because I can’t stand men. At other times I think it’s just because I can’t really be bothered with putting the effort required for a relationship with one. I’ve witnessed it over and over again…my female friends, my sister, my mom giving way more than they apparently get in their relationships with the men in their lives. So Kristina, you’re right. There are no promises of meeting a good man. But I also have to say that not meeting him has been an invaluable gift. I’ve come to realize that the moment that we are born female we are socialized into a world of lies. Lies about what is important in life. Lies about what we should value about ourselves. All of the stuff that I imagined my life was supposed to be about is not what actually happened. Instead, my life is way better than I could have ever imagined. Instead of my sexuality defining who I am, in terms of a relationship and raising children, I am privileged to define myself in terms of my intelligence and ambition and a great career. Although I do admire women, like my mom, who can devote their lives to their families and be happy, somehow I still feel like the lucky one. REPLY 163. kristinaAugust 29, 2010 at 6:14 PM # Linda, the important part is that you don’t invalidate women like your mom, it’s a very tempting thing to do when your eyes are focused on a goal, and the thought behind your goal is empathy for suffering. It’s not to say that women one day won’t choose to be a mother, but once everybody has been “enlightened” on every facet of every division of people, it truly will be a choice. REPLY 164. LindaAugust 31, 2010 at 8:14 AM # Kristina, I think you misunderstood me. I was not invalidating women like my mom. I was saying that I feel lucky to be who I am. Those are two very different things. REPLY 165. kristinaAugust 31, 2010 at 8:42 AM # Oh no, Linda…I didn’t misunderstand at all…I wasn’t particularly talking about what you were doing, I completely agree with your point of view…All I was saying is we shouldn’t discount the experiences of other women…we can examine, but logically if we’re not in that place we can’t say they are doing it all wrong, not to mention the same argument could be applied to the disagreeing party…. *sigh* it has nothing to do with you linda, it’s obvious you admire other women who make different choices because you recognize what is good for another may not be good for you, but it doesn’t make them any less human… better? REPLY 166. MartinSeptember 4, 2010 at 9:24 AM # You may hate men, but I love women! In fact, I love every single human being! I never wanted to join the arguing and fighting between the two sides, and I don’t really mind what you say, either =). I just hate people hating each other for whatever reasons or misunderstandings. It makes me feel sad, and sometimes even disappointed; I don’t know why, though! Anyway it’s better if everyone stopped hating each other so that people would have more enjoyable time together. Keeping up the hate will just make everyone sadder. Lighten up, people! REPLY 167. scSeptember 4, 2010 at 9:57 AM # Might seem an odd question but I am genuinely intrigued: as a man (and I’m only 22, so I’ve hopefully a long time ahead of me) what could I hypothetically do to help fix this? The problem seems to me to exist in the bizarre space of social expectation. Though this was effectively put in place by “men” (and I’m not entirely sold on placing the blame on what is merely a signifier of so-called “gender”) it has taken on quite a life of its own. Now I know you know this. I know you know that everybody is a victim of the shaping effect society has; men and women alike. The fact is, I don’t think as many men as one might imagine feel privileged or misguidedly expect that they should be so. What can be done, though, to educate those who do? There are women who enforce male superiority just as much, too. “We” need to work together as humanity in general to modify entrenched social prototypes. I think “hating” somebody based on an unchangeable sign that they’re born with (their gender!) is a bit backward and is likely to confuse – I would probably have taken offence to something like this had I read it when I was in my teens, and felt that there was a definite gender divide that I should adhere to. Sure, men are historically accountable. That’s fine. But I’m not. A lot of men aren’t. A lot of people just want to live, and live happily, and live equally. But that means living together, too. And it’s really not easy. What do we all do? REPLY 168. berrybladeSeptember 4, 2010 at 11:32 PM # @Martin Yeah, that’s real nice of you to tell womyn that maybe we should just suck it up, play nice & everything will be okay. Hah hah, pull the other one. @sc “Sure, men are historically accountable. That’s fine. But I’m not. A lot of men aren’t. A lot of people just want to live, and live happily, and live equally. But that means living together, too. And it’s really not easy.” Actually, yes, yes you are. REPLY 169. MartinSeptember 5, 2010 at 1:03 AM # :O That’s not what I meant at all! I just find it sad to see people reduced to hating each other because of their race, gender or appearance. I didn’t address what I said only to women, either =(. It was supposed to be for both sides – feminists, sovinists and just neutral groups. Don’t get me wrong! I’m not against feminists – or sovinists – I just think that hating each other is bad. We should be hating what makes unequality. If this post makes people even more annoyed, which I sincerely hope it doesn’t, then feel free to tell me why. I really, really didn’t want to offend anyone with my first post. Please consider my points, even if they seem stupid! Thank you for listening. REPLY o Nine DeuceSeptember 5, 2010 at 2:17 AM # It’s called a chauvinist. What, are you Canadian? REPLY 170. MartinSeptember 5, 2010 at 3:25 AM # Ah, sorry about that. Chauvinist, I mean. To answer your question, no I am not Canadian. I am Finnish and English is not my native language. REPLY 171. kristinaSeptember 5, 2010 at 8:07 AM # Martin…this is not a site of hate spewing, it’s a site that holds men accountable for their actions…if you don’t like it, you better check yourself…maybe you’re one of these men. How would you suggest everyone just get along? Have you read this blog and REALLY REALLY thought about what’s being said…TRYING not to take offense??? Try seeing it from the side it’s presented (female perspective) and take yourself outside of the equation…stop comparing these things to what you may or may not do…it’s preventing you from listening…try seeing it from women’s side first…then tell me where you see hate. REPLY 172. pollySeptember 5, 2010 at 9:42 AM # Polly, I’m talking deeper than cause and effect…I’m talking psychology Eh? Two completely different things. One is a causal relationship (can apply in any kind of science, including social sciences) and one is a branch of science or pseudo science depending which side of the fence you’re sitting. Either way it is not possible for psychology to be “deeper” than something it is not remotely similar to as a concept. Moving on. Martin. The problem seems to me to exist in the bizarre space of social expectation. Though this was effectively put in place by “men” (and I’m not entirely sold on placing the blame on what is merely a signifier of so-called “gender”) it has taken on quite a life of its own. Ah, the old ‘this hurts me more than it hurts you’ argument. Look Martin, if men don’t want to behave like knobs, the solution is really simple, they should stop behaving like knobs. There are plenty of social expectations that anybody female is subject to, around ‘femininity’ that personally I resolutely ignore. And you know what people – roughly 99.9999% of whom are male – feel compelled to express their disapproval, often in abusive and threatening ways. Is anybody making them do it? No, they’re knobs. However if you want a more complicated explanation, you may find the concept of ‘false consciousness’ helpful. Do google it. REPLY 173. AndrewSeptember 5, 2010 at 10:23 AM # Kristina, Nine Deuce’s writing, as well as the posts by the female commenters here, all contain statements that easily fall within the contemporary understanding of irrational hate. For example, the other day someone posted a link regarding the historical decay of Y chromosome (which would need to exist if women were to birth men). She was delighted about the prospect of a world without men. Also, ND’s snarky little Canadian remark above was not only rude, but possibly offensive as well. Imagine if someone said to you: “What are you, a woman?” after you had made an error. If we replaced “men” with blacks, gays or some other “minority” group, it would be denounced by any public commentator as simple hate speech. The reason you refuse to acknowledge this is because you have bought into the idea that men are: (1) a monolith (2) with inherent privilege (3) who exercise it broadly and without fail to the disadvantage of less privileged groups. This simply isn’t true, and as a result discussing “men” in any meaningful sense around this blog is just as intellectually bankrupt as the idea that all women are this or that. It’s one thing to recognize privilege at a practical level and protest the harm that may flow from its exercise. It’s another to pretend that everything with a penis operates the same way. As for Martin saying that we should all just get along, that is exactly the point of all civil rights movements, at least in theory. He didn’t say we should freeze the status of women and simply stop discussing feminist issues, that feminism was dead, etc. More likely, he was probably just confused, rightly, about how he was supposed to take an argument for equal rights seriously when it comes in the form of anti- male, Glenn Beck style hyperbole. In short, this brand of radical feminism (and probably many others) isn’t really about shedding privilege as much as it seeks to assume it for itself. That’s fine, but you should be honest that that is what’s happening. Just because your behavior (or hate) flows from a supposed millennia (or 3) of broad, group-wide mistreatment, does not make it any less misguided or privileged. REPLY o Nine DeuceSeptember 5, 2010 at 10:15 PM # Men are not a minority, nor are they an oppressed group, Andrew. As for “the posts by the female commenters here” evincing “irrational hatred,” have you read the male commenters’ posts? I assure you, I delete 99% of them, and yet the ones I let by still evince irrational hatred. And how do you figure that the “hatred” you see coming from women is “irrational”? Try being female for a few weeks and then decide whether hating men is irrational. I’d say not hating men is irrational, if one defines irrationality similarly to the way we define insanity: repeating the same action and expecting different results. REPLY 174. MartinSeptember 5, 2010 at 12:00 PM # I have tried to read it without taking offense. The reason I can somewhat succeed in it is because I don’t think it very much describes me! To further understand my own actions – and believe me I pondered what you said for a very, very long time – I re-read an old topic about psychological defense mechanisms. That is the main reason I didn’t comment on whether I agree with what is being said or not, and instead only commented on how it was being expressed! My post will probably seem less like blathering if I just quote what was written in the said topic: “The ego, or sense of self, is remarkably fragile and requires protection. This is so regularly observed that it has become an undeniable truism in psychology. This protection is provided by the so- called “defense mechanisms,” the aim of which is to shield the ego against any truths or facts which might threaten to overwhelm it—in other words, the defense mechanisms serve to protect the integrity of the ego. They are adaptive. All of us employ defense mechanisms, but we are usually blind to our own defenses, although not to those of others. Defense mechanisms distort both inner and outer reality, but that distortion is the price we pay for needing the protection they offer. Although all of them distort reality to some degree, the distortion runs a wide gamut from so-called “psychotic defenses,” which totally distort reality, through the annoying “immature defenses” characteristic of the various personality disorders (like narcissism, for example), then the “neurotic defenses,” which are annoying more to the sufferer from them than to anyone else—these are often called “hang-ups,”–and finally the so-called “mature defenses,” which are the mark of a relatively secure and developed sense of self which requires relatively less protection. A psychotic defense might involve, for example, complete withdrawl from reality into some kind of fantasy world in which inner conflicts are projected outward as if they were really not inner conflicts, but part of reality: “Aliens are sending out signals through my computer which keep me from having sex.” An immature defense is one which transmits ones sense of shame and anxiety to those around him, and so usually annoys others. Examples: 1. Immediate denial—refusal to even acknowledge painful realities. 2. Projection—attributing unacceptable ideas or impulses to others. 3. Idealization—seeing oneself or others as godlike or all-powerful. 4. Devaluation-deprecating others. A neurotic defense is one that works from the inside out, and may not even be noticed by others. For example: 1. Rationalization–inventing a plausible but incorrect reason for why one is not troubled. 2. Intellectualization—covering up feelings with facts and details. 3. Repression—involuntary forgetting of something unpleasant. 4. Control—trying to manipulate outside events so as to avoid anxiety. A mature defense protects the ego from the most fearsome aspects of reality without substantially distorting it. For example: 1. Supression—consciously putting something disturbing out of ones mind. This is not denial, but rather waiting until the right time to deal with the problem. 2. Humor—joking about difficult matters, so-called “gallows humor,” for example. 3. Anticipation—realistic planning for the inevitabilities of human life. Now I say that no one is responsible for the defense mechanisms that he or she uses. They are an indicator of the relative maturity or immaturity of the personality structure, which, as I have argued earlier on this forum, is unchosen and comes upon one as if by fate. A major goal in much psychotherapy is to help the client to use more mature mechanisms, and possibly to become somewhat aware of which ones he or she is using. Instead of bad-mouthing or flaming someone with whom you disagree, how about instead trying to point out what that person’s words suggest about the various defenses that person is using? This could help all of us. A partial list of defense mechanisms can be found here: http://www.clinicalsolutions.org/Defense_Mechanisms.html” This article suggests that no matter how many times I read what is said, being the subject of criticizing myself I’ll be blind and prejudiced to it no matter what. Perhaps for the same reason everyone who agrees with the text will be blind and prejudiced to whatever I say or imply. We are probably both explaining each other’s behaviour by assuming the opposite misunderstands the other. I am sincerely convinced I don’t misunderstand anything, but I still acknowledge that I could be and probably am misunderstanding something. What you are asking of me is quite similar to asking yourself to understand racism. I’m not saying feminism is similar to racism though! So please try not to take offense I just couldn’t come up with any other example. So, again, I am NOT in any way implying that feminism is anything similar to racism. But to illuminate: There is a very small minority of foreigners in Finland, yet every 7 out of 8 violence crimes you see are committed by black people. You may have gotten threatened yourself and every time by a person with a foreign background. Then you happen to overhear a few gangsta rappers in the next table proudly talking about robbing some old woman/man and their friends are cheering for him. After that you decide you’ve had enough and come to the conclusion that – because you know some good people with foreign background – although not all foreigners are criminals, all criminals are foreigners. And that is the moment when you become a racist. I could go on with a theory on how you become more racist but it would be a bit off the topic. Anyway, if I now asked you to understand a racist’s point of view, could you? Perhaps. Would you agree with him? I doubt it. Neither would I! In short we can’t help but misunderstand each other, but at least we can be kind to each other. I do sincerely hope we could understand each other someday. By the way in my example the said person wouldn’t really be hating foreigners, he would be hating gangsta culture. The person just wouldn’t know that. I hope this helped understand my point of view, although I imagine it’s a bit confusing and maybe even a little off topic! But I hope it’s not totally incomprehensible. If you think whatever I say is because I am misunderstanding something or I can’t consider your point of view and I think that whatever you say is because you misunderstand something or can’t consider my point of view it’s not really going anywhere. That’s why we should stop with the flaming and try to discuss and make the opposite side understand our points of views. I apologize for any spelling mistakes. The rest is blathering Like in war your own side is always correct. I’m one of the few Finnish people who doesn’t see eye-to-eye with Finnish war efforts in wwI and wwII. Finland was under Soviet Union’s reign, then it became independent when Soviet Union was in civil war. Then in world war Soviet Union tried to regain those lost regions of theirs, in other words Finland, but in the end only got a few parts for themselves. Then later on Finland attacked Soviet Union in hopes of regaining their lost regions. In other words Soviet Union attacked finland to reclaim their lands, Finland attacked Soviet Union to reclaim their lands. Yet everyone in Finland thinks Finland did the right thing. I don’t take a stance on either side. I just don’t agree with wars in general. REPLY 175. RianSeptember 5, 2010 at 12:19 PM # Might seem an odd question but I am genuinely intrigued: as a man (and I’m only 22, so I’ve hopefully a long time ahead of me) what could I hypothetically do to help fix this? Answer: Leave women alone. Also encourage everyone with whom you come in contact to leave women alone. Don’t look at women. Don’t talk to or about women. Don’t even think about women. Now you’ll say that’s impossible, and to some extent you are correct, but we’re talking about thoughts and behavior in general here. Of course people have female relatives, friends, mates, co-workers, etc., with whom they must interact and here you must be extra careful not to revert to gendered expectations. However, if you’ve been training yourself not to think about women or talk to/about women or look at women, you may find that it is easier to treat these women as fellow human beings. REPLY 176. lizorSeptember 5, 2010 at 3:04 PM # @ Martin and sc, Go over to Youtube and search “Robert Jensen”, and click on the “Feminism and Masculinity” video. WATCH it. THINK about it. That ought to clear up a little bit of your confusion. And please don’t come here with the expectation that we all have the time to educate you when you can’t be bothered to do your own research. REPLY 177. kristinaSeptember 5, 2010 at 11:07 PM # I don’t know about hate andrew…I’ve seen much more radical sites than this…and this to me is a breath of fresh air….TRUST ME!!! REPLY 178. AndrewSeptember 5, 2010 at 11:30 PM # Who is and isn’t a minority is irrelevant when we are talking about the logic of making arguments based on stereotypes. What’s important is whether or not the reason we are going to hate someone is legitimate, i.e., actually causing the offensive conduct. That’s lacking here. I am sure the male comments that don’t get through, to put it lightly, suck. I also know that a lot of the ones that do get through suck as well. Hating those posters for their thoughts, beliefs, or supposed actions would not be irrational. What is irrational, however, is hating someone based on a stereotype he carries by way of his membership in a particular group. The fact that women are oppressed does not excuse them from making reasonable arguments. There are some men who, for whatever reason, do not treat women in the way you find offensive. As a result, hating these men along with the others is irrational, as there is no reason to hate them. You may want to hate masculinity in general, or particular attitudes or behaviors that a lot of men adopt. You may find it useful to assume that the men you meet are like ones you hate, barring evidence to the contrary. It’s even permissible to qualify “men” with “some,” “most,” or “many” when describing your hatred of them. What muddies any meaningful conversation though, is assuming that one must act in a certain way as a result of their sex. Unless you think it’s acceptable to treat women poorly based on the assumption that they are all “emotional and weak,” I don’t see why treating men poorly based on the assumption they are de facto misogynists is any more legitimate. If this is really about getting beyond the sexual dichotomy and treating humans like humans, then sex must not be used as a proxy for anything, and individuals must be judged by their actions, as opposed to their traits. REPLY o Nine DeuceSeptember 6, 2010 at 5:30 PM # You’re being an unwarrantedly smug asshole, Andrew. Get off this thread. REPLY 179. kristinaSeptember 5, 2010 at 11:32 PM # So martin…you’re not even going to try to understand women??? Just be nice? If I try to act towards a man in a manner he finds acceptable of his guy friends or acquaintances to treat him, I’d be kicked in the teeth…. If I understand his interaction with men is some sort of pissing contest that I as a woman am not allowed to engage in, I may have a better chance of survival. I DO try to understand men…and not just by typical stereotypes…I understand men desire loving relationships, acceptance of their body, have insecurities, body issues, etc… and that each man is different…There’s no magic formula to make a man happy…it’s all to be taken on a case by case basis in which I must get to know each man as a human being and his likes and dislikes…simply playing nice doesn’t work… my definition of nice might not be another person’s definition, and in recognizing this I’m treating them with respect….and not just as men, that other group I try to be nice to. You don’t need to tell me the psychology of compartmentalization…you are doing it when you separate yourself from those “other guys” who’s actions you don’t have to answer for…should you suffer consequences??? Depends, do you find examining your motives and understanding how women feel on an individual basis consequences??? If so, maybe you’re on the right track.. REPLY 180. RianSeptember 6, 2010 at 12:17 PM # @Andrew Nine Deuce’s writing, as well as the posts by the female commenters here, all contain statements that easily fall within the contemporary understanding of irrational hate. Kindly tell me which of my posts here contains a statement that constitutes irrational hate. If we replaced “men” with blacks, gays or some other “minority” group, it would be denounced by any public commentator as simple hate speech. Yet you’d be hard-pressed to find a public commentator to denounce it as hate speech if we replaced “men” with “women.” The reason you refuse to acknowledge this is because you have bought into the idea that men are: (1) a monolith (2) with inherent privilege (3) who exercise it broadly and without fail to the disadvantage of less privileged groups. Since you addressed this specifically to kristina, I’m going to assume that she is the “you” in this statement, and I cannot fathom how you could possibly reach that conclusion from her comments. It’s one thing to recognize privilege at a practical level and protest the harm that may flow from its exercise. It’s another to pretend that everything with a penis operates the same way. Seriously, did you not read the second paragraph of the original post? In short, this brand of radical feminism (and probably many others) isn’t really about shedding privilege as much as it seeks to assume it for itself. Your proof? ND’s style and the words of “female commenters”? First, you accuse all people here (strike that, only the female people) of having an irrational hate of all men. Then you invent ulterior motives for whole movements from the comments of a few people. Huh. REPLY 181. GraceMargaretSeptember 6, 2010 at 6:41 PM # Andrew, I haven’t seen anyone advocating treating men poorly in this thread. I see women who are sick and tired of always having to be on guard because none of us can’t tell if the men we meet are going to be a real threat to our safety and well-being. This isn’t irrational or hateful, it’s pure self-preservation. In the U.S. battering by men is the single major cause of injury to women, more than muggings, rapes, and auto accidents combined, and 42% of murdered women are killed by their intimate partners. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, a woman is raped every 2 minutes. And the perpretators are usually acquaintances or someone close to the victim. When we meet a man we have to worry about his potentional for violence, something that a man never has to even think about from a woman. You can characterize that very rational fear as hatred if you like, but we women have to do what we need to in order to survive. And if we do actually trust the men in our lives and they then abuse us we are asked to evaluate *our* behavior, as if we should expect the average man to assualt us if given half the chance. How many times do we have to hear about a woman being raked over the coals after going through the traumatic experience of being raped or beaten before we are allowed to be a little wary of men. At least the KKK wore uniforms that were recognizable, we don’t get that kind of forewarning. REPLY 182. AndrewSeptember 6, 2010 at 7:56 PM # ND, Your warning is fair, and I feel like I’ve made my point. The reason I chose to say something was because SC and Martin both raised legitimate points and they were subjected to nothing more than a “check your privilege at the door and read the post again” kind of attitude. The reason men like this feel like they need to ask questions (I’m assuming) is because they feel like they are already doing the “right thing” but still can’t be in the good graces of radical feminists as a result of their manhood. What I am saying is that it can’t be the simple fact we (men) have a penis that’s the problem. There are a great many males out there in want of privilege and a great many females who enjoy more privileges than some men. There are many general aspects of “manhood” that you have time and again correctly critiqued, but treating men like a monolith who rise and fall by the same errors is a terrible overgeneralization. You are better than that and I’ve seen it. If I came off as smug I apologize, but stereotyping is something I feel like we are all better than, at least when seriously discussing the problems surrounding masculine culture. Rad-fem can easily make its point without resorting to broad over-generalizations. REPLY o Nine DeuceSeptember 6, 2010 at 8:01 PM # The problem isn’t the penis, it’s the privilege attached to the penis. REPLY o !ur firedMay 17, 2013 at 8:52 PM # These are very pathetic men n women. They violate women. Its time for us women to put them in fear of us. These men are like little school boys bragging. And they have nothing to brag about. They are that pathetic for men. Nothing to brag about. More on the pathetic little man syndrome about sex. Due to his inferiority problems. Men are more pathetic to me now. 50 year old men acting as if they all that. So, pathetic. Even 20 year old men acting as if they are all that in sex. When they are not. They need to get over themselves thinking they know everything about sex, when they don’t. They know how to violate women. Not how to love them. They are a pathetic excuse for men. Thats all they are. Bragging little school boys. Where @ woman like men knows they were all pathetic as men to me. All of them. N the women know it. Which is even worse. They know how pathetic a bragging man is when he has nothing to brag about.. REPLY 183. kristinaSeptember 6, 2010 at 10:20 PM # “The reason men like this feel like they need to ask questions (I’m assuming) is because they feel like they are already doing the “right thing” but still can’t be in the good graces of radical feminists as a result of their manhood.” The “right thing” is what we’re asking men to examine, just because they feel it’s “right” doesn’t mean they aren’t above sexism, and the arguments I’ve seen that are all too common are I’m not one of THOSE guys…true you may not rape and batter women, but what do women want? In order to know that you have to listen which is a lot less talking, and a hell of a lot less explaining why women just hate men…if we hated you, we’d have you dead by now…don’t you think there would be a lot more murders if women hated men? If I irrationally hated somebody why would my rationality suddenly kick in at the prospect of jail-time? I suspect it wouldn’t…ND engages men here, I haven’t seen that a lot in radical feminist spaces, she obviously thinks men are worthy of a debate, of the benefit of the doubt, and overall the hope that men can change… if she hated you, no comments of men would come through, even rational debatable ones. REPLY 184. HecateSeptember 7, 2010 at 1:30 AM # I agree 100% with Kristina. Self preservation is surely the most rational of human behaviors. It’s amazing that men react so violently to such basic self defense on the part of women. So you’re angry that we don’t trust you eh? Can you blame us?! You can take the most radical feminist in the history of the universe, and you’ll find that she has not perpetrated anywhere near the kind of violence your average ‘Joe’ is responsible for on a daily basis. Valerie Solanas comes to mind as one rad fem who shot someone, but in fact did not succeed in killing him. But she’s the only one I know of who even attempted such a thing. Women can go on about ‘hating’ men until they are blue in the face, but they rarely act on it. Men never admit that they hate women, and act on it every second of the day, in the most punitive and sadistic ways imaginable. And there are plenty of stats out there to back that statement. REPLY 185. ErynaSeptember 7, 2010 at 4:07 AM # After all these years there is nothing for frustrating than dealing with men and their issues. I’m reminded of how men would snicker at me on the job. After 14 years as a Stationary Engineer and a veteran of the friggin Navy this Snot-Bag kid out of college thinks I got the job because of Affirmative Action, the balls on that little jerk-I put him on bilge duty for a week . I’ve had to deal with the unsolicited rudeness and general “bitch-ass-ness” of men and my nerves are completely shot. I have no desire to own and operate my very own penis or arm wrestle or write ERYNA in freshly fallen snow so could somebody tell me just what the hell is their problem? There are times when I just feel like they need to be put in Time-Out with a fabulous selection of cone-shaped selection of head. Friggin Pricks! REPLY 186. MartinSeptember 7, 2010 at 9:48 AM # Sorry for not being able to post for a couple of days, I’ll just catch up by responding to everything in one post! @polly Sorry for not replying earlier. I googled what you asked me to and ended up in a wikipedia article. It was an interesting read. =) @ lizor Thank you for the video! @kristina “So martin…you’re not even going to try to understand women??? Just be nice? If I try to act towards a man in a manner he finds acceptable of his guy friends or acquaintances to treat him, I’d be kicked in the teeth…. If I understand his interaction with men is some sort of pissing contest that I as a woman am not allowed to engage in, I may have a better chance of survival. I DO try to understand men…and not just by typical stereotypes…I understand men desire loving relationships, acceptance of their body, have insecurities, body issues, etc… and that each man is different…There’s no magic formula to make a man happy…it’s all to be taken on a case by case basis in which I must get to know each man as a human being and his likes and dislikes…simply playing nice doesn’t work… my definition of nice might not be another person’s definition, and in recognizing this I’m treating them with respect….and not just as men, that other group I try to be nice to. You don’t need to tell me the psychology of compartmentalization…you are doing it when you separate yourself from those “other guys” who’s actions you don’t have to answer for…should you suffer consequences??? Depends, do you find examining your motives and understanding how women feel on an individual basis consequences??? If so, maybe you’re on the right track..” I generally get along with people despite their gender! From reading your posts I understand you are a sweet and kind person who genuinely strives for equality. I also know that not all comments are from the same person or from some kind of mystical “opposition’s representative” and that I, or anyone else for that matter, should not just lump together all the comments into one big object and then complain against it as if it were one. Any opinion posted is the opinion of that poster, it does not necessarily represent the whole of the ideal, group or community. I am also not ignoring for example Nine Deuce’s statement “some of my best friends are men (snarf snarf).”, or the fact that it has been mentioned more than once that this topic is not about hate spewing. Concerning this subject I am unable to agree with the points. I really can try to understand what is being said, and to some extent I believe I am capable of. But like I mentioned before, I can’t agree with it. I can not rationally imagine being a woman and thinking of being, say, judged by my the way I look by some. I can think I understand what it is, but I really don’t. That is because I am not judged by my looks. Just like I have not been, say, battered by a black person so I can’t accept racism. I can only comprehend why someone becomes a racist, but I would not agree with them. (I already mentioned this before, but I only took racism as an example because of the lack for any better example and I am NOT in any way comparing feminism to racism.) For the same reason if there is a point I subconciously reject because of a psychological defense mechanism and due to a high amount of flaming and criticism directed at myself, I would be unable to comprehend the point or accept it. If the flaming was on a little lower level, perhaps people would indeed comprehend and process the points and problems they needed to! I am not, however, saying that being nice will miraculously transfer everything into a fairy tale, I am talking of some sort of partial understanding. At least the criticized – women and men – would not oppose to everything said here so strongly, and maybe then everyone could calmly analyze what the other side is saying and decide if what is being said makes sense or not without the need to justify their own actions by thinking of a greater unjust on behalf of the other. The whole mutual flaming serves to create a mentality of “We and You”, or in this case “We vs You”, rather than “women and men” or just “I and you”, which is required to properly analyze faults and fixes. Even if a valid point is represented it will most likely be ignored if it is represented in an offensive manner. Well not necessarily ignored, but people just don’t wish to hear whatever is being said because of their natural defense mechanism which nobody can help! Furthermore, to protect our ego, our sense of self, we come up with errors from the “opposition”, after which all of us are reluctant to accept any criticism about ourselves and are only eager to find and accept errors – truths or fallacies – about the other. REPLY 187. kristinaSeptember 7, 2010 at 4:08 PM # “Furthermore, to protect our ego, our sense of self, we come up with errors from the “opposition”, after which all of us are reluctant to accept any criticism about ourselves and are only eager to find and accept errors – truths or fallacies – about the other.” I have to say, that I can accept my errors when they are pointed out…as I may not always see them. I take criticism as a growth, not an attack…while I may not agree on someone’s criticism I do realize that they have feelings, and theirs are important too…so hey…maybe I need to look into that is my general thought process… I don’t have to agree with someone’s criticism to change, I just have to be willing to look into the reasons WHY they are criticizing, and honestly listen to them, and that takes a LOT of humility because of our natural responses…in order for me to actually act like an equal I have to take on the attitude of I’m not important…something I had a lot of practice with growing up, in a verbally abusive family. I think if everyone was humble, it would be easy to see how we are equals in a real sense, not just a pseudo tit for tat sense. REPLY 188. OutsideLookingOverSeptember 7, 2010 at 6:22 PM # Coming from this gender-dysphoric male who has finally got the “A-HA” on just what male entitlement means, how insidious it is, and mostly how blinding to insight, your remarks appear reasonable and to be expected, Martin… from someone lacking the ability to perceive and process crucial information. My suggestion: try to read this from another perspective than your own. This reads easier than it is to do. Here’s what you do… imagine that you instinctively fear a whole gender: one that you are meant to trust, but that can destroy you so completely without even thinking about it or seeing anything wrong about it. That is the reality of womankind. I know you can’t accept that – by your own words – and so I feel sorry for your limitation. But I don’t feel sorry for you or any other man (including myself). What these women are telling you is the unvarnished truth. Do them the courtesy by listening with an open mind instead of looking for ways to pick apart what they are saying. Consider, just for 10 minutes, that what they are saying is not just their perspective: it is their *reality*. Reality cannot be argued away with a “not me, *I* don’t do that”… Look, I work with women: I’m a nurse. I make a practice to look in the eyes of my patients to find the truth, and in the eyes of my colleagues to find out what they *mean*. We XYs have no clue as to how women think, so we dismiss it as irrational. Everything is measured by *our* unit of measure: if it doesn’t make sense to us, it doesn’t make sense, full- stop. Looking into the eyes of my colleagues I read fear and distrust. I became circumspect: was I being threatening, was my body English domineering? I’ve been told by former partners I look too submissive. I don’t know. But I tried to speak more softly, change my tone, my language… still that look persisted. Then I realised: this is an innate distrust. I don’t see this in their eyes when women talk to each other. It wasn’t until it became clear to *some* of my co-workers that I was much less male than I looked that the look started to melt away… some. Let me put it another way. I had a drink problem. I couldn’t identify it, or see how I was different when I drank. My partner (I hate the term “wife” with all its Susan Maushart connotations) says she has seen a huge change in me since I quit drinking, and says she has fallen in love all over again in that person she originally knew. Martin, I *still* don’t see the change she does! Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist: it means I can’t perceive it. There are things we are going to be blind to – we haven’t the receptor sites to process this information – but we MUST accept the existence of these truths. Women aren’t making it up. REPLY 189. ismeSeptember 8, 2010 at 12:57 AM # Martin…I would say you are right about much of what you have said. However, that doesn’t prevent you from being wrong. Yes, you are right, things would work out better if everyone was more civil to each other. But that’s totally missing the point that you are saying that as a man on a blog dedicated to women victimised by men, telling the women to stop feeling angry about being victimised. That really doesn’t help. It’s also a tad patronising and smacks of privilege, that you feel the need to inform everyone of the blatantly obvious to begin with. Yeah, ok, you don’t like being flamed by women. But, this does appear to be a blog dedicated to women airing rather more serious complaints about men, and adding your own rather petty issues again smacks of privilege. What sort of response did you really expect? Ok, I get that you see yourself as a nice guy, and possibly aren’t too afraid of what being a nice guy actually entails, as opposed to an insufferable NICE GUY!!!!. One of the more useful tricks for that (well, life in general, I guess), IMHO, is determining when nobody needs to know what you think, something any number of people might want to develop further, and something I’d like to think I’m getting the hang of. REPLY 190. kristinaSeptember 9, 2010 at 10:13 AM # That was actually a very well done response isme… I LOVE IT!!! REPLY 191. LillieSeptember 11, 2010 at 5:52 PM # Martin: your sentiments are nice and all, but the real problem – the one thing all this boils down to – is not who gets their precious feelings hurt and whether it’s worse to call a man a chauvinist pig or a woman a stupid cow. The problem is as follows. Women who hate men sometimes gather together, talk amongst themselves about their feelings of hatred, and then go out of their way to avoid men. Men who hate women sometimes gather together, talk amongst themselves about their feelings of hatred, and then go out of their way to do something like this. http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/09/10/30235.htm (I cannot emphasise the words TRIGGER WARNING enough.) REPLY 192. GraceMargaretSeptember 12, 2010 at 1:21 PM # Lillie, And what gets women to the point where we say we ‘hate’ men is hearing stories like this over and over, in varying degrees of gruesomeness, all our lives. Like I said before, it’s more a matter of self-preservation than actual hatred. I just don’t get why men are so hell bent on causing us physical/mental/emotional harm, why it’s part of their very definition of manhood. REPLY o JustinJune 6, 2013 at 6:27 PM # Harming women usually comes from men being insecure about themselves. I know it sounds cliché, but it’s really true. Men define themselves as the polar opposite of a woman. If women are kind and gentle, men assume that they must be rough and tumble. This simple point is the primary (although not exclusive) reason for violence on earth. Men usually cause the violence, then blame women for everything. Remember, the male ego is extremely fragile. Just look at the way macho men act, it proves that deep inside is fragility. Masculinity (and I’m not defending this) is often viewed as “”assumed to be absent, unless proven to exist.”” ….The burden of proof is on men, and society shouldn’t construct it that way. Hence, men feel the need to prove they are macho by doing things (eg, taking actions and doing certain behaviors). I’m not a women, but I assume that women don’t feel a need to prove they’re women. This might sound odd, but I believe that most of us men know how much stronger women are than us. Seriously. A man can react to this in two basic ways: (1) Accept and embrace it, or (2) try to fight it – usually this second approach causes stupid macho behavior to attenuate their feelings of inferiority. The male ego is NO excuse for abusive or violent behavior. What needs to change is that men need to understand that (a) they have no burden of proving they’re so great, and (b) that they aren’t proving their male gender identity by beating or degrading women. This can only occur by a societal change of attitude. Education is the key for this change to ultimately come about, and then real progress can begin to happen. REPLY 193. LillieSeptember 14, 2010 at 2:26 AM # GraceMargaret: “Like I said before, it’s more a matter of self- preservation than actual hatred.” Yes, I think so too. There’s also a big difference between hating men for the vile things they do, and hating women for, well, having vaginas. And like I already said, I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that women’s hatred of men usually manifests itself as separatism, and men’s hatred of women more often than not manifests itself as an active determination to do harm. Here’s some more about the aforementioned case, by the way, in case anyone’s looking to raise their blood pressure with futile rage (trigger warning still applies): http://jezebel.com/5636632/the-troubling-case-of-the-porn-model-sex-slave The comments to this story are astounding, and not in a good way. The sex-positives seem much more concerned about the bad publicity this is giving to the BDSM community than about the victim’s welfare. Incredible. REPLY 194. GraceMargaretSeptember 14, 2010 at 1:43 PM # Yes, ‘sex-positive’ feminists meaning those who have a problem with the exploitation of women are just a bunch of prudish biddies. No political analysis allowed. All roads always seem to lead to women being sex products, we just get to ‘choose’ it now. Get naked and violence and abuse is suddenly sex. Thanks Jezebel. Wouldn’t it be just as accurate to call them violence-positive feminists? I remember watching a talk show years ago where a black male comedian being interviewed was asked if he was into bondage or S&M, and he said no, it reminded him of slavery too much. I wonder how many non-white people are into the BDSM scene, it seems like a predominantly white middle and upper class phenomena. REPLY 195. ismeSeptember 14, 2010 at 6:50 PM # “and men’s hatred of women more often than not manifests itself as an active determination to do harm” I’m not sure about that…that hatred is the cause, I mean. IMHO, which I’ll admit isn’t really based on anything, most abuse of women by men isn’t due to hatred, but merely the same sort of thinking that has kids kicking apart ants’ nests when bored or frustrated. If women don’t rate as people the same way ants don’t (or somehow don’t have grounds to complain), kicking them apart makes sense. I’d imagine if their was actual hatred of women (besides that directed at those uppity ones that point out that being kicked apart is actually not that great), there’d not be the staggeringly massive denial of the abuse caused by men. Again, not particularly based on anything, though. REPLY 196. FedeSeptember 14, 2010 at 8:46 PM # Andrew sez: “I feel like I’ve made my point” I sez: The only point you’ve made is that the central arguments of radical feminism are true. This you have done by exemplifying perfectly the kind of behaviour that makes any rational human being hate the majority of men in the world, not for being male but for taking their privilege over women for granted. REPLY 197. OutsideLookingOverSeptember 15, 2010 at 1:32 AM # Andrew sez: “I feel like I’ve made my point” Fede sez: “The only point you’ve made is that the central arguments of radical feminism are true. This you have done by exemplifying perfectly the kind of behaviour that makes any rational human being hate the majority of men in the world, not for being male but for taking their privilege over women for granted.” To *admit* / acknowledge / realise-the-implications-of such a thing as a male entitlement privilege would make any *sensible* human realise just how patently ridiculous the whole “why can’t we just all get along” nonsense is. On the basis of that, I doubt these typical blokey-blokes have actually read anything that has been written by any of the women. Which *is* just typical. C’mon, guys, you can do better than defensive. Start with actually READING what the women have written. With your “ears”, not your “mouth”. You might find the education worth the effort. I did. REPLY 198. LillieSeptember 15, 2010 at 8:09 AM # isme: I don’t know… internalised misogyny is still misogyny, and hatred doesn’t have to be conscious and active to function as hatred. I mean, a mass delusion that makes so many men treat women as worthless the same way that callous kids would treat ants’ nests as worthless is only possible in a world that systematically hates women. If a man partakes of that hatred, I don’t really care to what extent he consciously acknowledges it. I’d also argue that for a lot of kids, kicking apart ants’ nests is a convenient release for anger, even if they don’t actively hate the ants in it. The same way women are, for a lot of men, convenient punching bags and scapegoats for everything that is wrong under the sun – which, again, is only possible in a world that systematically hates women. The distinctions between conscious hatred, internalised hatred and transference are psychologically interesting, but as a feminist I’m no longer very interested in all that… one could spend all one’s time thinking about the ultimate causes of misogyny and always find another ultimate cause behind every cause, but the effects of it would remain the same. And the effects are effects of hatred, as far as I can see. REPLY 199. AndrewSeptember 15, 2010 at 8:25 AM # Fede, I sez that’s reasonable. REPLY 200. FedeSeptember 15, 2010 at 1:04 PM # Andrew, Do you, now? If what I said strikes you as reasonable, what is your problem with any of the arguments any of the women here have made? Or the arguments that OutsideLookingOver has made? None of these women, nor OutsideLO have been stereotyping men, and it is offensive of you to imply it. Not one person here has suggested that the problem is the penis, and yet you have the gall to object to other people’s arguments with the pointless “it can’t be the simple fact we (men) have a penis that’s the problem”. Objecting to strawfeminism is inappropriate defensiveness. That men do exhibit the kind of behaviour described in Nine Deuce’s brilliant piece is an observation, see? It is not a generalisation to say that generally, men act that way. It is the simple truth. It would be a generalisation to say that all men act that way all the time, because there are exceptions to the rule – something that *everyone* here has been careful to point out again and again! OutsideLO is one exception to the rule; sadly, you yourself are not. You are making the whole thing about *you* instead of about the legitimate negative observations about men that were made. You are taking them personally when all you had to do was count yourself out if you are not guilty of those behaviours examined. By failing to see the bigger picture, you proved to be yet another self-absorbed man. Martin did the same thing, by the way. And still there is hope for you both. Do try harder. Come on, join uuuuuus! ;) REPLY 201. kristinaSeptember 15, 2010 at 2:04 PM # Fede…I totally LOOOVE you… lol! REPLY 202. ismeSeptember 15, 2010 at 4:52 PM # “one could spend all one’s time thinking about the ultimate causes of misogyny and always find another ultimate cause behind every cause, but the effects of it would remain the same” Oh, yes, absolutely, the why is mostly only academic. It’s just such a bizarre thing that I’m struggling to understand. REPLY 203. skeptifemSeptember 16, 2010 at 12:40 AM # Damn, this blog is good. Posts like this make me feel less alone when the assy behavior of others erodes my hope in humanity. The problem is that even if you explained what was wrong with the behavior they probably wouldn’t even understand what was being said. I flipped out on some dude at a restaurant who was doing his best job of trying to comedically explain women (on a date with A WOMAN, mind you) and fucked up my dinner. I told him so and he was genuinely confused about how what he said was sexist. I think all of us “pussies” should take over wyoming to escape the crowds of masculinity worshipers. Almost no one lives there, and the ones who do would be scared out of their minds if a bunch of queer types immigrated there together. REPLY 204. WilliamSeptember 16, 2010 at 3:26 AM # Please don’t stereotype me because of my gender. I am simply a person who strives for peace and respect among all people. I am an individual who happens to have a penis. Make assumptions about my character, not my genetics. REPLY 205. AndrewSeptember 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM # Fede, There is a difference between assuming that all men share certain behavior qualities and pointing out that some behavior is more prominent in men. You avoid this error by qualifying what would otherwise be over- broad statements, which is why I agreed that what you “sed” earlier was reasonable. If you’d like one example of the irrationality I was referring to, look at SC’s first post. SC asserted that, despite being a man, there was no reason to hate him. He tried to “count himself out,” as you put it. This was not good enough, however, as Berryblade rejected this idea since he was a man, thus assuming that he must be part of the problem I am not going to comb this thread for more examples, but they are there. The problem arises where ND or the female commenters here aren’t careful to point out what behavior they really find objectionable, and instead use “men” as a proxy for all of the social ills that purportedly flow from masculinity and its supposed privilege. You are correct that this thread isn’t about me, but it’s not about men either. It’s about acting on beliefs of male supremacy, gender roles, domestic abuse, being treated like subhuman sex objects, and overly aggressive behavior. Oh, and some dude who was acting like a jerk. The problem is that not one of these behaviors applies to all men, or even strictly to males as a sex. Despite that, it is treated by the commenters here like it does. That is the epitome of unfairness. To be fair, my issue isn’t with the post. I trust ND to know the difference between broad over-generalizations and useful terms for purpose of discussion. I don’ trust every commenter here as much though, and when I see male commenters here berated simply for the fact that they are male, even when they are trying to conform to the ideal male archetype espoused here, it goes too far and damages the credibility of the whole radical feminist critique. REPLY 206. GraceMargaretSeptember 16, 2010 at 11:33 AM # When guys come here whining about how men are being treated unfairly by women or are victims of ‘reverse sexism’ it’s actually quite hilarious. Just a little taste of the news this week: “Mallick: A ‘bloodslide’ of honour killing”: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/859613–mallick-a-bloodslide-of- honour-killing “Battered spouse” defense allowed in beheading trial:http://www.buffalonews.com/city/article181295.ece Officials: Schoolgirls, teachers sick from poison gas: http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/25/officials-schoolgirls- teachers-sick-from-poison-gas/?hpt=Sbin Female genital mutilation persists despite ban: http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=90366 REPLY 207. skeptifemSeptember 16, 2010 at 12:25 PM # you whiners are assholes. It is dangerous for women to assume men are nice. Let that sink in for a minute. DANGER. It isn’t a lofty academic exercise to people who live with it every day. REPLY 208. kristinaSeptember 16, 2010 at 1:31 PM # Andrew..I completely understand where you are coming from..BUT you are coming in with the assumption that that is what we’re doing…painting this brush over every man… we know some men do some men don’t, but when men come in here saying we’re making assumptions it seems blatantly obvious that they are doing the same thing. We’ve already said a MILLION times if you don’t do this we’re not talking about you… Why defend something you don’t do? You are either making the assumption that we think EVERY man does this…or you are defending your privilege to do that thing… There are assumptions being made by men who come in here saying well I don’t do that… If we discuss the behaviors themselves it takes away the responsibility that needs to be held by a group, it may be an easier situation to face but it’s also easier to throw your hands in the air and say..oh well!!! REPLY 209. FedeSeptember 16, 2010 at 2:04 PM # Andrew, I have read the thread. Not one male commenter has been berated for being male. Note that OutsideLO, syndicalist702, and Charlie have not had any trouble here. ‘Counting oneself out’, as I have referred to it, does not mean coming here and demanding to be trusted because you yourself can attest to the fact that you personally are innocent of those behaviours associated with masculinity. Counting oneself out entails proving with your actual demeanour that you are an exception to the rule. The first step to doing that is to show that your are capable of listening. Yes, it sucks for you to have to work that hard to be trusted, but the experiences these women have had that have led them to rationally be somewhat reserved about men suck infinitely more, brother! The issue of this discourse is not that some people such as airport guy act like arseholes and just happen to be male while doing so. The problem discussed here is that some people feel it is their right to act with arseholerish entitlement on the strength of being male. That is why it is important not to try to derail the discussion into one about individuals. When I attend public meetings where the agenda is racial discrimination, I don’t have any right to come over all defensive when someone points out, for example, that “whites treat people of colour like they are dogs”. I hope I have never treated anyone like that, but that does not mean that their complaint is not valid. And I am not entitled to be trusted implicitly for being an individual whom that POC does not know yet. If I want to get to know them in any meaningful, positive way, I had fucking well better shut the fuck up and accept that they are perfectly justified in making that assertion, because on the whole, whites do treat people of colour like they are dogs. Understand! Peace be onto you, my friend. REPLY 210. lizorSeptember 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM # Funny how the “good guys” who are so offended by imaginary personal slights can never figure out that maybe, just maybe, they could try to DO SOMETHING about rampant misogyny and violence against women other than coming to feminist blogs and trying to stop women from talking factually about women hating culture and behaviour. REPLY 211. AndrewSeptember 16, 2010 at 2:30 PM # Kristina (& Fede), We can very well agree that the broad brush painting is inadvertent, and most commenters here are generalizing for the sake of expediency. This is fair. But maybe the reason it feels different is because a lot of commenters here hold attitudes like yours, which is: “If we discuss the behaviors themselves it takes away the responsibility that needs to be held by a group.” I don’t believe in group responsibility. It seems nice to picture myself as a crusader for the rights of the disadvantaged, shunning my privilege or using it as a force for “good.” But what if I don’t want to? What if I am content to just leave the world alone, not harming, nor be harmed? Am I still a willing participant in your degradation because of my sex? Your attitude may not stem from an obvious overgeneralization, but it still seems vastly unfair to me for how far it extends responsibility to otherwise innocent actors, i.e., males who don’t opt-in to female subjugation. Fede, I agree that it might not always be helpful to complain about technicalities when obvious victims are making various points. I just thought the treatment of males as males was seeming more unfair than usual, and I spoke up. There might be very good reasons for victims to distrust individuals who belong to groups that oppress them. Where we are discussing policies, however, we should approach situations like rational actors who, presumably, take ideals like fairness for everyone into account. In short, just because victims have good reasons for hating their oppressors, it does not make them excellent arbiters of policy choices. As a result, when someone says “Men are X, so we should do Y,” their logic probably fails since men are not all likely “X.” Anyway, again, I feel like I’ve been allowed to make my point. Out of respect for everyone else I won’t comment anymore on this issue. REPLY 212. FedeSeptember 16, 2010 at 2:38 PM # Exactly, GraceMargaret. The idea of ‘reverse sexism’ is as (oxy)moronic as that of ‘reverse racism’. With unlevel playing fields, it is not possible for the underdog to oppress those in power. The insistence by those blind to their own privilege that everyone must act as if the playing fields were level would be laughable if it wasn’t so exasperating. REPLY 213. FedeSeptember 16, 2010 at 2:58 PM # Hi, Kristina! Thanks for your kind words earlier, hehe. And you bring up an important point: the responsibility that needs to be held by a group. Quite right! Not in the sense, of course, that every individual man should be punished for what other men have done; but in the sense that patriarchal society has granted human status to men and not to women – whether the individual man wanted that or not. For men to act as if this is not the case, and to require of others that they become equally willfully blind to the slant of the playing field is not the way to deal with that, at least not if we have a dream about the sexes beginning to get along better. REPLY 214. OutsideLookingOverSeptember 16, 2010 at 3:41 PM # I’ve noticed something fairly interesting. Neither Andrew or Martin or any of the other blokes seem to want to address my points with me directly. There are several possible reasons for that: 1. they know they cannot directly confront my points with a countering point that has any weight 2. I’m transsexual, so I’m dismissed as beneath contempt and not worth talking to. This is my life experience… it is easier to be gay than transsexual. So be it: gotta just pull the big-girl knickers on and get on with it. 3. I’m genetically male, and so they don’t want to talk to *me* because of my gender, because I can’t be persuaded. HUGELY insulting, but not to me: to women. Because, they don’t realise they are invoking a classic male-privilege dynamic: “with my superior intelligence I will persuade you that I am right.” This is a form of male privilege that I find the most insidious and yet very, very common. Andrew hides his feeble points in superfluous verbiage which he hopes – through sheer volume of words – his points will attain some sort of validity. Which is so bogus… and you really think these women are going to fall for this? And can’t you see just how *this* very behaviour put you smack-dab in the middle of the ranks of those males you claim you’re not part of? It’s like I said: when you *have* the privilege, you can’t *see* the privilege for what it is. And you won’t *see* when you unwittingly take advantage of that privilege. Nope, can’t persuade me, bud. I see right through it. REPLY 215. kristinaSeptember 16, 2010 at 6:21 PM # Andrew said: “I don’t believe in group responsibility. It seems nice to picture myself as a crusader for the rights of the disadvantaged, shunning my privilege or using it as a force for “good.” But what if I don’t want to? What if I am content to just leave the world alone, not harming, nor be harmed? Am I still a willing participant in your degradation because of my sex?” If people didn’t take responsibility as a group, nothing would be accomplished FOR the group. If you don’t want to, that is your decision, but it smacks of “privilege”…it’s saying that YOU are more important than group men AND group women. Are you still a willing participant??? I can’t make that assertion on the individual level that you presented that you are “willing”, but if we’re talking about the “greater good”…like I assert, then I’d have to say yes, and not that it makes you a bad person in an individual perception (like yours and others close to you who are able to see your good qualities), but when considering the “good” of others it can make your perception of what is good problematic. REPLY 216. BluecatSeptember 16, 2010 at 7:00 PM # What if I am content to just leave the world alone, not harming, nor be harmed? Am I still a willing participant in your degradation because of my sex? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” -Edmund Burke REPLY 217. FedeSeptember 16, 2010 at 7:09 PM # What is meant by group responsibility is that you do not operate in a vacuum, Andrew, William, Martin, etc. Say it with me: *I do not operate in a vacuum!* It is hugely naive of you to think you do. You belong to a group that holds privilege over women. You are born into that group. The *only* positive thing you can do about that is to be an ally to women and work hard not to intentionally or unintentionally abuse the power you have. Andrew sez: “shunning my privilege or using it as a force for “good.” But what if I don’t want to?” I sez: Then you are an enemy to women and cannot expect to be treated as anything but. Nothing a man does in the company of women is politically neutral. You can’t just pretend there is no power differential between you and the women you encounter. There is, whether you like it or not. What you do with it is what makes you either an oppressor or an ally. But you cannot be neutral here, because you wield a power that women don’t have. Ignoring patriarchy does not make it go away. REPLY 218. FedeSeptember 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM # Andrew, you addressed me so I will answer a couple of points, even if you are in fact serious this time about not commenting any more on this issue. First off, I can see that logic is not your strong suit. No arguments have been put forward of the form “Men are X, so we should do Y.” You imply that we are discussing policy. This is your contention alone. Just like you would have us believe that “this thread isn’t about me, but it’s not about men either.” You are wrong on both counts. We are not in fact discussing policy right now, and this post and thread most certainly is about men. You imply that victims of oppression are too personally affected to be objective about the issue of their own oppression. Shame on you for that one. They *and only they* are the experts on the issue of their oppression, which would be obvious to you if you had any sense at all. You have a funny conception of fairness. You seem to think that your inconvenience outweighs a woman’s risk of physical or psychological terrorisation. Whether you support the status quo or not, women are being systematically persecuted, objectified, humiliated, and violated without respite by the group to which you belong. But all the same, you would like for them to act as if that subjugation is not a reality, and for them to greet every man they meet with the assumtion that he is the exception to the rule. You may or may not realise that if they do so assume, they put themselves at quite an immense risk, but even if you do realise it, you deem it more important that you be allowed to sail through your existence without ever being inconvenienced by women’s reservations about your sex. This is openly sexist behaviour. Women suffer unspeakable injustice at the hands of men in this our culture (as in many others) and have come to this thread to talk about those experiences. You, however, don’t want that getting in the way of your prerogative to waltz in here and immediately have everyone cater to your preferences. Have you any idea what a spoiled brat you make of yourself? Grow up. REPLY 219. berrybladeSeptember 17, 2010 at 12:36 AM # Andrew Every time you post on here, you just prove me right a little bit more. Skeptifem & GraceMargaret, You two are totally spot on. Agree totally. REPLY 220. kristinaSeptember 17, 2010 at 3:04 PM # Fede, good job… I would also like to assert that he’s not doing any good for his fellow males whom expect women to trust them either…While feminism does focus on women and freeing us from oppression sometimes men fail to recognize that it would indeed help them too. If you want women to believe you’re this awesome guy, then put some elbow grease into it!!! You say you don’t want to feel like you’re xyz just because you’re a male and there are lots of guys that feel that way as well, yet you’re not willing to put in the work to rid the world of xyz…My guess is because xyz is only important if it doesn’t happen to you or those close to you…so if anyone exists outside your personal bubble experiences xyz, it’s not important, yet on the internet nonetheless where it’s obvious there are LOTS of people outside of your personal bubble you expect to be seen as non-threatening, when you’ve made clear that xyz is not important outside of your personal bubble…doesn’t that sound a little…. sexist??? or maybe that word doesn’t sit well with you…how about selfish? It is after all about your comfort and how you feel when someone doesn’t trust you whether or not xyz is talking about you or not…you see psychologically you feel on some level that you’re not doing enough, that is why you compartmentalize yourself right out of the sexist category…you’ve put yourself in a bubble because of your compartmentalization and it doesn’t do your argument any justice. REPLY 221. MartinSeptember 22, 2010 at 10:04 AM # :D Hello, everyone! Sorry I haven’t replied in a while, I was so busy studying that I completely forgot to! For what it is worth, I appreciate the fact that my post was read so thoroughly and that despite me being a male, the replies were very well- thought and considerate. And, as before, I try to keep myself out of the ‘VS’ debate. @kristina (September 7, 2010 at 4:08 PM) I couldn’t have put it better! I am with you on this one. If we all were humble, we would probably not have any issues with each other. Of course, not everyone is, so it will probably remain a fantasy, something I personally at least strive for. Perhaps humility was the word I was looking for. Thank you for the post! @OutsideLookingOver (September 7, 2010 at 6:22 PM) Your post was quite enlightening. Of course I try to listen to people as well as I can! I also try not to pick apart what anyone says, but, rather much like kristina, I try to take any criticism as a growth. I just sometimes am not quite capable! Actually, I think it is better to point out something I agree with. I agree with the fact that men – in general – are more violent than women. Of course nobody is a saint! I don’t agree with this because of any statistics, I agree with it because I have witnessed more male violence than female. Whether I agree with it or not, however, doesn’t have anything to do with the truth. I’m not trying to get any pats on my back by saying this, by the way! I’m just prattling on about what goes on in my mind, I guess. Moving on. We all use defense mechanisms to some extent. I hate using myself as an example, partly due to the fact that I am actually blind to my own defenses, so what I’m saying is purely speculation! But anyway, in my case I’d assume that I couldn’t agree with, let’s pick a random statement, ‘men are evil’. My processing would probably be something similar to ‘men are evil > I am a male > the statement is false > I am not evil’, as opposed to ‘men are evil > I am a male BUT > I am less male than others > the statement is false > I am not evil’. I just don’t really think that I am defined by, well, anything much! Which is to say, I think I myself define what masculinism is for me. Not the media, not other men. I don’t think I’m really different from any other men. I’m not all that different from any women, either, I guess. Anyway, I really admire your commitment. In that respect, you’re far superior to me! I would probably never be able to commit myself to something I can’t see or grasp. Except religion, that’s different. It’s actually a pretty amazing gift you have. @isme (September 8, 2010 at 12:57 AM) First of all, I’d like to thank you for dedicating such a brilliant post as a reply, it actually helped me realize something. Yes! You are absolutely correct. I am wrong about a great many things all the time. I am not quite sure what to reply, really. I’m a little speechless; your reply just doesn’t have any flaws in my opinion. The only thing I can honestly comment on, I guess, is that in my opinion it doesn’t make a difference whether a problem is small or large. If a little child is worried about going to school on her or his first schoolday, I would still have to attend to that problem even if I had larger ones myself. Likewise, the problems in some parts of Africa are a lot direr than the problems people living in the west have in-general. @Lillie (September 11, 2010 at 5:52 PM) I agree with you. Things like that are bad. @OutsideLookingOver (September 15, 2010 at 1:32 AM) I re-read everything, and you’re quite right! I did miss a few things. @Fede (September 15, 2010 at 1:04 PM) =) @Andrew (September 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM) You may have a valid point, you’re a lot smarter than I am, after all, but I think there used to be a saying that was something similar to ‘if I don’t listen to you, how can I expect you to listen to me?’ @OutsideLookingOver (September 16, 2010 at 3:41 PM) I would never make such terrible conclusions! @Fede (September 16, 2010 at 7:09 PM) =) I enjoy seeing high-spirited group activity. We have a female president, by the way. Everyone loves her! I couldn’t help mentioning that, I guess it’s one of those random outbursts that sometimes happens when you’re excited. REPLY 222. kristinaSeptember 23, 2010 at 7:04 AM # Martin, I hate to think that you would think of it as evil, or that you would define yourself as a man = male…you obviously see the distinction between the cultural and biological. Try not to think of you as evil…we are all human beings and above all most of us value love (I’d hardly say that is evil), but the way in which we try to achieve that goal, can be evil..you mention religion and I’m a Christian in the way I try to live like Christ (not really fundamental), and I believe strongly in hate the sin not the sinner…it’s separating sin from yourself, yes you may do some bad actions…but it’s less of your personality than you think…it’s not disavowing the deeds you do, but it’s recognizing that you can change your actions and not change who you are deep down inside..it’s getting deep in there that is so difficult. I’m glad that you seem excited (not sure if it’s from the posts, or the president)…but I hope you will stick around and engage in dialog. REPLY 223. OutsideLookingOverSeptember 23, 2010 at 2:15 PM # Hey Martin, I’m not superior to anyone. In fact, the “‘men are evil > I am a male BUT > I am less male than others > the statement is false > I am not evil’” line of reasoning doesn’t apply to me because ‘I’m human > humans are all sinners > therefore, I’m a sinner’ line of thinking does. So, even though I’ve enjoyed some enlightenment through this blog – much more than I ever got across the pulpit – that doesn’t take away my responsibility to be ever vigilant against usurping/invoking/unwittingly reacting to that sense entitlement that sits like a cancer in each of us, implanted by society, endorsed by society, validated by our mates and affecting *ever* so much of how we act and how we think, even our subconscious. I’m elated to hear that you are listening. Truly listening. Be open to new concepts, particularly those that appear to threaten what you perceive as the known order of things. Just because it’s everywhere and everyone does it and thinks it, doesn’t make it right. Half the human race doesn’t engage in male privilege, and we don’t understand that half, do we? We know we don’t. REPLY 224. GraceMargaretSeptember 23, 2010 at 3:05 PM # One of the biggest frustrations women encounter is the argument that men can’t control or change their violent or abusive behavior, that we have to walk on eggshells lest we provoke them to abuse us. So the ‘men are evil’ or ‘men are that way naturally’ argument doesn’t come from feminists, it comes from male supremacists and misogynists and rape apologists. Those should be the people you should be complaining to if you’re a man and don’t like being characterized as being defective or evil simply because you have a penis. We believe men are responsible for their behavior and can choose not to be ‘provoked’ by women into harrassing or beating us up or sexually abusing us or killing us. All you have to do is pick up a newspaper and I guarantee you you’ll find a story about a woman being violently assualted and people coming to the defense of the men who did it, saying something she did made it impossible for them not to brutalize her or that it was justified: http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/photos-of-a- girls-gang-rape-go-viral-on-facebook/ **TRIGGER WARNING** So why do men come to places like this to complain and not to the people who are really denigrating men, the men and women who say it’s just they way men are naturally (evil, violent, brutal monsters)? I imagine it’s because you don’t want the status quo to really change, so you disguise it as ‘concern’ for the supposed reverse sexism of radical feminists. REPLY 225. MartinSeptember 24, 2010 at 3:25 AM # No you’ve got it all wrong! I really did not mean anything by that statement, it was literally a random one I just came up with on the spur of the moment. That is to say, without much planning it. I didn’t mean to imply anything with it; I said it only to demonstate an extreme example of how thoughts usually process! I apologize for the misunderstanding! Thank you for reading the post and for all the good comments, by the way. =) REPLY 226. FedeSeptember 24, 2010 at 12:27 PM # GraceMargaret, I think I love you. REPLY 227. kristinaSeptember 24, 2010 at 2:07 PM # “I said it only to demonstate an extreme example of how thoughts usually process!” Yes, this is what I was talking about with disassociation…nobody wants to think that they belong to a group that seemingly purposely damages others… this can take the shape of, well I’m not like THOSE guys…this can become dangerous thinking though, as it leaves you unable to examine “less extreme” methods of oppressive behavior…The idea is less of redefining masculinity and more of redefining humanity to include all, and all acting in humane ways towards each other, based on each other’s experiences of what is damaging…that includes a lot of gray areas and forces people to get to know each other as people and not as “group men/women”, which is basically what it means to accept another as a person…even the smallest assumption of what makes person A woman or man is oppressive…For instance, I was often assumed to be a “lesbian” (not that that’s bad (although in society it is considered “bad”)…it just wasn’t true for me) because of the way I acted or dressed or that I was good at sports, computers, etc. and that was very dehumanizing for me because they didn’t care at all what existed past what they could “see” (a person that would’ve given the shirt off my back if they needed it)…it was a very painful experience and has left me very scarred with issues of anxiety and depression. REPLY 228. GraceMargaretSeptember 24, 2010 at 3:33 PM # Why, thanks Fede. Back at ya. ;) Martin, that wasn’t really directed at you personally, but I wasn’t exactly sure where you were going with the ‘men are evil’ statement, thanks for clearing that up. You seem to be open-minded and willing to hear out other people’s opinions here which is quite refreshing. It was directed in a more general way at the men who come here and try to derail very legitimate complaints from women in a feminist-friendly space. It’s extremely important for women to have places we can go where we feel safe to vent and share our experience and understand that we aren’t alone, that the violence and abuse we experience are not isolated incidents but part of the partriarchy’s m.o. of keeping us terrorized and powerless. I always find it amusing when I hear men talk about dystopian novels like 1984 or A Brave New World and say how chilling it is that this stuff could happen or it looks like we’re heading in that direction. Women have been living in a dystopian nightmare for centuries. I read 1984 by George Orwell when I was 15 and it struck such a chord with me on a deep level that I didn’t fully understand back then, I even remember being genuinely puzzled that it had that kind of impact on me, being that I was just a little white girl living in suburban California. I think women get it on some level even before they fully develop a feminist conciousness how bad things are. But now as an adult I can see the parallels (and many feminist writers have writing much more eloquently on the subject than I possibly could) and it is chilling. Even the telescreen part seems to be coming true for women, with all the new and smaller gadgets being invented that are being used to violate our privacy, and judges ruling in favor of men who take pictures of us without our consent because it’s considered their ‘free speech’. And when women try to fight for our basic human rights we are accused of being the oppressors (think terms like ‘PC thugs’), when we point out misogyny we ‘hate men, when women make the tiny progress suddenly a slew of books come out decrying the ‘decline of men’. The slogans in 1984 could be applied to all the ridiculous advice we are always given as women: Ignorance is Strength (play dumb, dumb it down girls, it’s the only way to get ahead in life!), Freedom is Slavery (independent women have ruined everything and are slaves to their jobs now!) You could also reverse that to Slavery is Freedom (BDSM is sooo cool, girls! It’s totally liberating!) And every woman knows Room 101 awaits us all if we don’t play by their rules and be good girls. We learn to that to love Big Brother is to survive. And we learn to smile even as that bullet enters our skull. REPLY 229. HecateSeptember 24, 2010 at 5:33 PM # I came across this article, and wonder what you girls think of it? Does it seem like a genuine appeal to women, or just mildly condescending, unicorn and rainbows New Age talk? http://www.soulscode.com/apologies-to- the-divine-feminine-from-a-warrior-in-transition/comment-page-1/#comment- 245679 To me, it seemed the latter, but everyone will interpret it differently. I didn’t like the gushy posts from women saying that they will ‘forgive him with open arms.’ What are they, his groupies? His revelations here do not automatically take him to saint status, in my opinion. It feels like something is being left out of his confession too. REPLY 230. FedeSeptember 24, 2010 at 6:57 PM # Martin, GraceMargaret has not ‘got it all wrong’. Again, get over yourself! For the luvva… Please! REPLY 231. GraceMargaretSeptember 25, 2010 at 1:01 AM # Hecate, that guy sounds beyond creepy (and the photo of him doesn’t help). He’s a former criminal lawyer and psychotherapist and he admits to “horrifying acts of violence” against women? But then really doesn’t accept any responsibility but uses some vague term like the “divine feminine” to apologize to? I used to be into a lot of new age type stuff in the past so I know how brainwashed you can be to forgive and forget almost automatically, which makes it depressing to read the women’s responses before yours. What exactly is so historical, ground-breaking or brave about his ‘apology’? Did he actually apologize to any of the individual women he commited the horrific acts of violence to? It took years of that shit to finally make me snap out of it, not to mention being physically assualted myself for standing my ground and not being the nice girl for one of the very few times in my life. That was a hard lesson, one that I’m paying for in health problems to this day, not to mention thousands of dollars worth of doctor and physical therapy bills. I’m not buying it at all. I’m glad there was someone like you to be the voice of sanity on that thread, it might help the woman out there who’s feeling pressure to forgive the poor broken warrior in her life to snap out of it, too. I’m suprised they haven’t ripped you apart for your ‘negativity’ yet. He’s got books to sell, the new age market is very big now. That’s where all the assholes and ex-criminal lawyers go to find nice gullible people to buy their bullshit. He got an endorsment from Ram Dass? I know a woman who knew him quite well, he’s a misogyinist and egomaniac of the highest degree. But he’s still very respected in that world. That tells you a lot about what a kind of behavior a man can get away with in that community. Mr. Brown has truly found his niche. REPLY 232. FedeSeptember 25, 2010 at 1:24 AM # Thanks for the link, Hecate! “Divine Feminine” – what a load of retch-inducing *bleeeep*! Let the asshat walk a mile in some divine feminine shoes, and we’ll see how much of a warrior he really is! Such gender-essentialist nonsense. Ha! REPLY 233. MartinSeptember 25, 2010 at 3:55 AM # Ah, sorry I have to correct yet another thing in my post. The second one’s statement (‘men are evil > I am a male BUT > I am less male than others > the statement is false > I am not evil’) was supposed to be ‘true’. REPLY 234. kristinaSeptember 25, 2010 at 8:10 AM # I’m not sure about this one…forgive is a possibility (not a very big one at that)…forget??? Never! How am I supposed to know a guy’s true intentions…by his words??? Hell NO!!! The way he’s talking it seems as though he’s bowing down to women…all it would take is one woman to “screw him over”, and he’d be back in his violent boat with vengeance … scary thought… I have to say anyone who praises women is more scary than the obvious asshole…I can avoid the obvious asshole, it’s much harder to resist the charm of being worshiped (for those who don’t know better)…and it just ends up being a self-fulfilled prophecy..”see I told you women were fucked up…” Yikes, it makes it all the more justifiable to beat, kill, and rape…”I gave her everything.” I have heard so much of that type of talk it’s sickening. REPLY 235. joySeptember 25, 2010 at 11:22 AM # “if men don’t want to behave like knobs, the solution is really simple, they should stop behaving like knobs.” Polly, you’re super. “it might help the woman out there who’s feeling pressure to forgive the poor broken warrior in her life to snap out of it, too. ” I’ve been back in Conservative Podunk America for going on a month now, and I can attest that the ‘forgive your poor broken warrior’ theme is very popular here too. Even, perhaps even especially so, among the non- religious. It ties into the idea that every woman needs to be in a relationship — every woman needs a man. Even if that man abuses her, or children, or other women, or any or all of the above. He’s just a wounded warrior. He can’t help it. He needs her help to get over it, you see! And if he doesn’t, it’s her fault. As my mother (a fiftysomething-year-old farm woman and lifelong member of the lower working class) most chillingly said about her pet abuser, I mean wounded warrior, I mean boyfriend: “He’s better than nothing.” Well, actually, ‘nothing’ is pretty damn good, when the alternative is ‘men.’ REPLY 236. HecateSeptember 25, 2010 at 12:47 PM # Thanks GraceMargaret and Fede! I feel exactly the same way. If the world wants real saviors and true warriors, it will have to swallow its pride and listen to the voices of authenticity on boards like these. Many of the women here have truly ‘walked on the coals’ and experienced a baptism of fire at least once in their lives. And even if they haven’t, they are savvy enough to be deeply offended by superficial bull crap of the type the New Age industry churns out in sickening volume. I am not a deeply religious person, but I honestly think if Jesus were alive today, he’d roar like a lion at the New Agers the same way he did back in the day with the money changers at the temple. Truth is lived, after all. That is where people need to get their shining examples from. New Age? Try same old stale dogma. GraceMargaret, I completely understand your trials as the nice girl in a not-so-nice world. ‘Nice’ is such a withered, pale and useless word I think. Maybe Hallmark should trademark it, so we don’t have to use it quite so much as a mask for things that are more unsettling and beg for resolution and clarification. You girls are just awesome, and not simply because you agree with me on so many issues :D You’re brave, honest and have a fantastic and wicked sense of humor! REPLY 237. HecateSeptember 26, 2010 at 3:50 PM # True Kristina and joy. Your comments are testament to the fact that not only do men always come up short (pun intended), they just don’t seem to care how ridiculous absurd their existence is. REPLY 238. GraceMargaretSeptember 26, 2010 at 4:06 PM # “I have to say anyone who praises women is more scary than the obvious asshole.” Oh my god, YES. Guys who are always talking about women’s ‘special’ qualities and how they think women are really the superior sex (“I’d be happy if you ladies would just take over the world, we men have screwed it up enough!”) are definitely the ones you have to watch out for. If you dare fall short of that and act like, say, a fallible human being like anyone else then they feel totally justified in being rude and abusive or even retaliating with physical violence. You’re expected to be this ethereal goddess-like creature always sprinkling fairy dust and sunshine wherever you go, and god help you if you fall short of that. Again, I’m paying that price in real way with health problems and medical bills for not living up to that, I’ve been out sick from work for a month now due to complications (currently I’m in what’s known as status migrainous, which I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy) from an incident with my older brother for not being my usual nurturing, nice little sister fairy dust sprinkling self. He basically beat my head in, I have chronic migraines now and a slipped disc in my neck because of it. And he’s a sensitive, artistic type who always says he can’t stand “macho guys” and prefers hanging out with women and has more women friends because they’re smarter and nicer. Blech. When he was beating my face in, he was screaming at me that I was a bitch and that he wanted to slit my throat. If I told you what this was over I would probably die of embarrassment because it’s such a completely trivial thing, something that brothers and sisters fight over all the time. But I was starting to be more assertive in other ways before that incident and it was really getting on his nerves, so this was just the ‘last straw’ for him. He was used to being able to manipulate me for years and it really threw him when I started to say no more and more and stand by it and not be swayed by his typical pleas for forgiveness and praise for what an understanding and wonderful sister he has. And he has never taken responsibility for what he did, never apologized. He tried to blame it on me, completely lied to everyone about what happened, said he was acting in “self-defense.” (The story always changes). And my mom took his side and told me I shouldn’t have made him mad, if I didn’t make him mad he wouldn’t have hit me in the first place. My brother had no injuries. My nose was bloodied that night, which my mom saw. My mom knows about all the health problems I had and am having. I had literal whiplash from the blows, it caused the nerves in my neck and arm to be pinched which put me in excruciating, nonstop pain for over two months, I almost had to have an intervertebral disc in my neck removed, which would have resulted in a permanent disability. But still, I made him mad so it’s my fault according to my own mother. And my brother is still considered a nice guy. REPLY 239. kristinaSeptember 26, 2010 at 6:01 PM # Unfortunately Grace Margaret, your mother is his mother too…it muddies the water, no mother wants to think either of their children are the “devil”, and since he had no marks on him, the easiest one to blame was you…it’s sad… I always tell my little boys when they beat up on each other that hitting is not an answer and walk them through talking things out…I can’t be there every time, but they know if they fight they both get time-out… Not so much for punishment as it is time to cool down and think things over and realize that if you walk away, you can control your sometimes overwhelming emotions. I try my best as a mom, but I know I’ll make mistakes like my mom before me…but my boys will always know I love them and bad behavior is not acceptable. It’s so scary being a mom to boys..the last thing I want is one of my boys being an abusive man…I would be crushed. REPLY 240. HecateSeptember 26, 2010 at 6:28 PM # I’m really sorry to hear your story GraceMargaret. I am honored to know a strong woman like you, even just via this board. Though I wish women did not have to possess superhuman strength to survive this world. I have always felt that men are severely mentally ill, because the impulse control just doesn’t appear to be there, not even in so-called ‘well meaning’ males. Maybe newborn males need a lobotomy of some kind to fix the problem? Impulse controls are situated in the frontal lobe. I’m not excusing them due to biology, but since they have not come up with a solution to all their sick issues, that may be the only way. REPLY 241. ismeSeptember 27, 2010 at 2:54 AM # “Guys who are always talking about women’s ‘special’ qualities and how they think women are really the superior sex (“I’d be happy if you ladies would just take over the world, we men have screwed it up enough!”) are definitely the ones you have to watch out for. If you dare fall short of that and act like, say, a fallible human being like anyone else then they feel totally justified in being rude and abusive or even retaliating with physical violence. ” Oddly enough, not in my experience. It always seemed to me that those ones would be the NICE GUYS!!!!!, citing such attitudes amongst the reasons they are entitled to pussy. REPLY 242. joySeptember 27, 2010 at 10:57 AM # Except, kristina, we aren’t talking about a mother siding with a child over, say, a stolen toy or something. This is Grace Margaret’s LIFE, and “well, mothers make mistakes too :)” is not a good enough platitude. Pull the other one, it’s got bells on. Mothers tend to side with sons. Even when the son is raping his sister, battering her, fucking her over in any multiple myriad ways, the mother will side with the son. Any clue as to why? It’s not, “oh well, we do our best! :) hee hee, forgive and forget.” Yet another way that women get beaten down, stripped of their vitality — if you can’t count on the support of your mother (even when, especially when, your brother is raping you/ stealing your money/ treating you like shit/ beating your face in and leaving you with debilitating injuries/ whatever), who CAN you count on? When are women going to side with each other? REPLY 243. kristinaSeptember 27, 2010 at 12:52 PM # Joy, I’m not saying it was right AT ALL… or that we should just shrug our shoulders over making “mistakes”… I’m musing my own inevitable downfalls of being a mother to two boys…. I agree that it is easier to take sides with the son, and it is undeniable evidence of the oppression of women… I’m not at all downplaying anything in Grace Margaret’s life… I’m sorry Grace Margaret, if you took it that way…I really was musing at how my fate as a mother is inevitably doomed (and no matter how hard I try, I fear it won’t be good enough). I don’t have a daughter, but you can be damn sure if I did I would NOT condone violent behavior of ANY kind from my sons… I don’t let them “be boys” as it is now, with each other, even when it is “acceptable” for boys to beat up on each other…especially brothers. REPLY 244. ismeSeptember 27, 2010 at 8:13 PM # If the mother (or anyone else, for that matter) sides with the victim, she is forced to acknowledge their is a problem. It’s much more comfortable with your head in the sand. And then of course, it is therefore the victims fault for robbing them of their comforting delusion by making a fuss. REPLY 245. HecateSeptember 28, 2010 at 12:29 AM # I’m with joy that there’s something inherently creepy about the mother- son relationship. It brings to mind that Little Lord Fauntleroy/ goldilocks character Mordred in the film ‘Excalibur’ that came out quite a while ago (1981 in fact!) I just knew he was going to grow up to become a monster and it made my skin crawl. He might as well have been actually sleeping with his mother, Morgana. Horrid little thing! Really, nothing registers higher on the bizarre scale than a mother telling her son he’s a ‘god.’

Anyone have any other film examples of beyond creepy mother-son dynamics? REPLY 246. kristinaSeptember 28, 2010 at 7:03 AM # That is what I meant to say isme…it just came out all wrong… REPLY 247. GraceMargaretSeptember 28, 2010 at 2:52 PM # Kristina, based on all your past posts here I really didn’t get the impression you were trying to justify the situation. I sensed from your post that you are feeling that no-win situation mother’s frequently find themselves in, that no matter what you do you’ll be probably be blamed for pretty much everything that goes wrong with your kids, especially if they’re sons. How many times do we hear about a ‘domineering’ mother being blamed for a male adult’s criminal behavior? I think Polly posted a link upthread that illustrated that point quite well. Women have always been the easiest scapegoats, if it’s not the female victim to blame for ‘making’ a man behave like a sociopath, then mom is the next in line. Never any personal responsibility, which to me would be what a ‘real man’ would do. Be an adult, take responsibility for your own actions. With my mom, I don’t know what to say. She has always been a loving and caring mom, which is probably more painful because if this was just the usual way she acted I could probably deal with it better. And my brother didn’t learn this behavior from my dad. My mom and dad had their arguments but I can’t even imagine my dad ever hitting my mom. They argued like two adult human beings, he never played the “I’m the man” card, and he was born and raised in a small town in Greece and was extremely religious. I never heard my dad say a misogynist thing in my life, and he always encouraged me to be whatever I wanted to be even if it wasn’t the conventional career for a female. When I got good grades in school I remember him just beaming with pride, he never told me things like I needed to dumb myself down to catch a man. My parents did have the conventional working dad/stay at home mom relationship but I was always told that both jobs were equally important, and my dad worked 12-14 hour days and rarely got days off, he wasn’t someone who expected some kind of royal treatment when he got home. And this was true of my grandfather, my dad’s brothers, and my mom’s brothers as well. So I know it’s possible for men to be responsible, civilized, adult human beings. There’s nothing wrong with men, their frontal lobes work just fine (especially when they’re around someone who can fight back and possible kick their ass, magically they can suddenly control their ‘uncontrollable’ impulses.) From my experience, most people do what they can get away with, men have just built a whole mythology around that fact and think it’s something unique to them. REPLY 248. FedeSeptember 28, 2010 at 7:42 PM # “When are women going to side with each other?” Sing it, sister! kristina, you face a difficult task with two sons. But I think we are all a little bit safer in the world when there are mothers like you who are willing to examine that and go against the grain and try to teach her sons not to indulge in violent behaviour. REPLY 249. joySeptember 28, 2010 at 7:44 PM # Women are trained to submit to men. Whether overtly, as in right wing/conservative ideology (“the wife shall submit to the husband”/”Child of Eve” bullshit) or insidiously (burlesque, porn, fembotism, makeup, etc.). Thus, unless they’ve been raising their radical consciousness, they submit to ALL men. Fathers. Husbands/boyfriends/Nigels. Random men on the street (‘smile, baby!’), men in social situations (ever see a female friend suddenly ignore you at a social gathering to defer to a man she isn’t even interested in — just to ‘keep the peace’ or win his favor?) Logically following this trend, they even submit to their sons, grandsons, nephews, shit, any male children. If you don’t know of any women who have kids, watch random adults with kids at a playground, restaurant, or school. Grown women will let little boys, even infants, walk all the fuck over them. And why?! Maybe because of the myth that boys need more encouragement (read: ego stroking) to grow up normally — or the newly perpetuated lie that males are being diminished these days. Sorry I misread you, kristina! REPLY 250. kristinaSeptember 29, 2010 at 12:33 PM # It’s ok Joy… it happens… I’d much rather have the conversation to get a full understanding of each other than blow each other off…it’s much more productive! REPLY 251. justsmtSeptember 30, 2010 at 11:44 AM # I do tend to agree with people who think boys need a little ego stroking, but I would agree with you, perhaps for different reasons, that most of the people (and most importantly a woman, my single mother, in my case) who do that tend to take it overboard and let their kids desire’s hold sway for better or worse, usually worse. They should only take it as far as it needs to go for boys to not be paralyzed by the fear of trying out new things. It is so important for boys to get that much of an ego boost at least. If you give in to their egos though, you will start to yield a lot of your important adult wisdom in favor of whatever childish short-term desires a boy has at the moment. When a boy, like me years ago, cries about how he doesn’t want to do karate because the floor is cold, and how he doesn’t want to do boy scouts or summer activities camp or hockey or rec soccer, adults would do well to say “oh well, you’re going to give it a shot anyways, because we know if you do you can give it your best and have fun.” A little ego stroking, combined with a sense of adult realism. My own mother stroked my ego a lot, and yielded to my childish demands a little too much, I figure. I don’t want to blame her for the way I turned out as a young adult -that would be wrong- as I have now become successful and largely give her thanks not blame for a secure childhood and continuing support, but I did first grow into a young man who was scared to find out that the world does not treat him the same as did his mother and relatives. The shock was overwhelming and did cause me to knuckle under, screwing up my grades as I hit puberty (and all the way until graduation was over), and causing me to miss out on the high school dating scene that most boys and girls should get to enjoy as they learn how one another works. I’ve broken free now, and enjoy the many things this world has to offer, which has caused me to take pleasure in my pursuits and seek new hobbies, and therefore give me exposure to women getting to see a side of me that never existed before, thereby leading to some wonderful relationships. I do wish that I’d taken those karate, and boy scouts, and summer camps, and sports, when I was younger, because they would have benefited my frame of mind greatly as an adult, along with the exposure to fun new people. I didn’t take those because at the time I was too silly to see the benefits and enjoyment they would bring, and my mother was too concerned about my complaining to push me harder to keep involved. So in a nutshell girls: boys do need a little ego stroking – plus a firm hand. Just enough to get them out there into the world, not more. Definitely not enough that their ego overtakes your own motherly love and strategies for his long term success. With any luck, my future wife and I will see better results as we try to expand on what our own parents taught us about parenthood when we assume the role ourselves. REPLY 252. GraceMargaretSeptember 30, 2010 at 2:58 PM # justsmt, do you think ego-stroking is the right term, and why do you think boys need it more? Shit, if anything, girls need not only some serious ego-stroking, we should all encourge girls to indulge in some downright egotism and arrogance just to balance things out. In a nutshell girls, to quote Elizabeth Cady Stanton: “I think if women would indulge more freely in vituperation, they would enjoy ten times the health they do. It seems to me they are suffering from repression.” REPLY 253. BluecatSeptember 30, 2010 at 4:21 PM # @justsmt: Thank you so very, very much for that elucidating mansplanation about boys and their very, very fragile egos that require special care and feeding. The patronizing use of “girls” in the last paragraph was the cherry on top of this pile of gender essentialist bullshit. I’m not going to armchair psychoanalyze you, but I feel it’s necessary to point out that a child that avoids social activities, avoids dating in high school, and whose academic achievement is negatively impacted has got some rather serious emotional problems that should’ve been addressed by a therapist early on. What your mother did is called “enabling”, not ego-stroking. By the by, there is no such thing as “male ego”. Boys and girls alike can suffer from emotional difficulties that impede social functioning. Last, but not least, I hope you successfully overcome your addiction to gender essentialism before you meet your “future wife”, for both your sakes. REPLY 254. OutsideLookingOverSeptember 30, 2010 at 4:24 PM # “So in a nutshell girls: boys do need a little ego stroking – plus a firm hand. Just enough to get them out there into the world, not more.” You can’t be serious. Have you read anything on this blog at all, buddy? I’m blushing bright red *for* you, since you haven’t the sense to realise just how patronising, how condescending, how bloody entitled you sound. Your comment would beggar belief, if it were coming from a woman. Coming from you, mate, I’m really not surprised. After all, you *are* male, you *are* entitled by society and mum, thus completely blinded, and you *can’t* even conceptualise what an awful prat you sound like. Before you comment again, do yourself an enormous favour and *read* what was written in prior posts. Seriously. Then, at least you won’t sound like an entitled idiot, even though you are. Ego-stroking… sheesh! REPLY o Nine DeuceSeptember 30, 2010 at 4:29 PM # I almost didn’t let that one through, but I had to see what people would say. It was just too funny. REPLY 255. kristinaSeptember 30, 2010 at 5:40 PM # I myself didn’t interact socially as a youngster very well… The only reason I think my mom had any part in it is because she would tell me things like “good girls don’t hang out at the mall.”, and subsequently most of the girls thought I was a snob and didn’t like them….however, at the time I should have still tried to be normal socially, I had and still have social issues, but I don’t think any of it had to do with my “fragile ego”… it did have a lot to do with social constraints that were put upon me by my parents though. My boys do not get their ego stroked at all, and they are VERY social, and very well liked by teachers, girls, etc… I encourage them, yes…but if they are crappy at something I tell them practice or get over it… if I teach them real life skills now, chances are less that they will complain about the world being so unfair. I however do NOT tell them to suck it up when there is something wrong… I do show them how to be productive when “complaining” though, for example: is the complaint something that can be worked through or solved?, is it life-threatening?, why do you feel this complaint is important?, what could be gained by the experience you are complaining about if you continue?…my boys are still little 4 and 6, and they are intelligent enough to work through this dialog with me…it might take longer than when talking with an adult, but I’m teaching them something they will use for the rest of their lives, and will if learned at a young age…I’m so proud of my boys sometimes… REPLY 256. justsmtSeptember 30, 2010 at 8:06 PM # “justsmt, do you think ego-stroking is the right term, and why do you think boys need it more? Shit, if anything, girls need not only some serious ego-stroking, we should all encourge girls to indulge in some downright egotism and arrogance just to balance things out.” If I were to get a little more picky about my choice of words, then no it is probably not the most correct term. I’ll concede ego stroking ain’t the most accurate, or sweetest, most politically correct way of putting it, but as it pertains to self-esteem the term was good enough for me. I cannot say that boys need it more than girls, which is why I never said anything of the sort in my previous post. In the previous post I didn’t bring up young girls at all, and in any fair overarching assessment, obviously their needs are important too. Mine was not an overarching assessment of both genders though, it was simply as a reply to joy’s post (which included points about boys and women upon which I wanted to add my take on things) and included my own real world example about me as a young boy from which I can see many parallels among young men not succeeding today. So just to reiterate, in my previous post I mentioned how I think boys often get **too much** of this sort of ego stroking from parents. Not too much or too little relative to girls, just too much period. As was my case. By the way, thank you for not equivocating me with scum of the earth like the next two posters. REPLY 257. justsmtSeptember 30, 2010 at 8:12 PM # @BlueCat “Thank you so very, very much for that elucidating mansplanation about boys and their very, very fragile egos that require special care and feeding. The patronizing use of “girls” in the last paragraph was the cherry on top of this pile of gender essentialist bullshit. I’m not going to armchair psychoanalyze you, but I feel it’s necessary to point out that a child that avoids social activities, avoids dating in high school, and whose academic achievement is negatively impacted has got some rather serious emotional problems that should’ve been addressed by a therapist early on. What your mother did is called “enabling”, not ego-stroking. By the by, there is no such thing as “male ego”. Boys and girls alike can suffer from emotional difficulties that impede social functioning. ” You are very welcome. Boys really can have very, very fragile egos. Egos that might, as they were in my case, be built up to be very big with the help of themselves, their mothers, and their relatives, only to come crashing down when they discover that the real world was not as sweet to them for the sake of who they are [as boys, as children, as family members] as their loving mothers and relatives were. A problem which can be, as it was in my case, compounded by their inexperience with such matters, caused by too limited of an exposure to reality in their childhoods, from mothers yielding to their complaints and letting their kids “walk the fuck all over them” (to quote your poster ‘joy’). I noticed Kristina just talking about this, and she has the right approach for her own kids, in my opinion. joy was mentioning what she thought was a problem: women (for whatever reasons, perhaps because they are “trained”) letting boys “walk the fuck all over them”. I just added that this can be a problem for the boys themselves, when women let them do this. I’ll add, it is a problem for boys, when ANYONE lets them do this. I think my example is telling of this, as it prevented me from what would in hindsight have been some great opportunities. I agree that it could have used therapy up until a certain point in the past. I am lucky that, without it, I have managed to pull together what I feel is an exceptional social life, pursuits, relationships, and job. I’ve definitely more than caught up to most people I know. However, I believe I have seen through my own experiences, a way to minimize the chances for my own children that their circumstances would do well to receive therapy of the sort you mention. It will involve not letting boys (or girls) “walk the fuck all over” the mother, or the father. So it will involve a slightly different take on my part -not a radical departure- from the otherwise wonderful parenting that my mother and relatives gave to me, something my girlfriend herself had quite well and will refine & emulate from her own parents if and when we do start a family. Just because my post mentioned boys’ egos almost exclusively, does not mean I believe in “boy egos” or “girl egos” it just means I was talking about boy’s egos. As I said to GraceMargaret, this is because it was a reply to the poster ‘joy’ who talked about boys and because an example I used in the reply was about a young boy, me. If it weren’t for the fact that you said I am spouting a pile of “bullshit” (I resent that because the life experiences mentioned in that post are precious to me), I would feel sorry for accidentally upsetting you when I referred to you as a girl. Back to GraceMargaret again, and to anyone else who hasn’t mentioned that I am tantamount to an idiot and scum of the earth… I am sorry if I offended you calling you a girl and I would happily take it back. Unlike BlueCat and OutsideLookingOver, you have been kind to me. It is only fair I return the favor and make an effort not to offend your beliefs if you will do the same for myself. I am sorry if when I stumbled onto this blog I overlooked some rules of conduct. Rules that are a little different from which I am accustomed. REPLY 258. melissaSeptember 30, 2010 at 8:18 PM # AMEN i agree with everythng that u said ive benn thinking this for a million years and i think u may have forgot they’re perverts REPLY 259. justsmtSeptember 30, 2010 at 8:33 PM # @kristina “I myself didn’t interact socially as a youngster very well… The only reason I think my mom had any part in it is because she would tell me things like “good girls don’t hang out at the mall.”, and subsequently most of the girls thought I was a snob and didn’t like them….however, at the time I should have still tried to be normal socially, I had and still have social issues, but I don’t think any of it had to do with my “fragile ego”… it did have a lot to do with social constraints that were put upon me by my parents though. My boys do not get their ego stroked at all, and they are VERY social, and very well liked by teachers, girls, etc… I encourage them, yes…but if they are crappy at something I tell them practice or get over it… if I teach them real life skills now, chances are less that they will complain about the world being so unfair. I however do NOT tell them to suck it up when there is something wrong… I do show them how to be productive when “complaining” though, for example: is the complaint something that can be worked through or solved?, is it life-threatening?, why do you feel this complaint is important?, what could be gained by the experience you are complaining about if you continue?…my boys are still little 4 and 6, and they are intelligent enough to work through this dialog with me…it might take longer than when talking with an adult, but I’m teaching them something they will use for the rest of their lives, and will if learned at a young age…I’m so proud of my boys sometimes…” Kristina I can totally see how that would have an impact on you. Sounds like, in spite of your social issues, you’re doing a hell of a job with your two boys. It was different for me because the biggest blockade was myself, followed by my mother whom I “walked the fuck all over” (joy’s lovely words). I was a crying little brat when I complained about not wanting to undertake all of the wonderful things like karate, boy scouts, etc that she was going to put me into. In hindsight I would have loved those things (and have done many of them since, not the boy scouts obviously haha). I wish that I could have understood that positive feeling for getting out there in the world as early as when I was a boy, or I at least wish that my mother didn’t let me have my way, and pushed me into these events irregardless of my crying about the floor being too cold. That said, I like your take on it. I talked about how I wished my mother gave me a firm hand and pushed me, perhaps you’re right though. The whole ‘being productive about complaining’ sounds like a potentially brilliant strategy that I will have to put to the test when the time comes, for myself and for my own kids. I am glad to hear that you don’t feel the need to stroke your boys’ egos too much and that the parenting is largely a success. It just reinforces my own belief that they don’t need anymore of an ego than it takes to not be paralyzed by fear, and that too much can be a detriment. They sound like they are faring better than I did when I was their age. This makes me look forward even more to having my own children and doing everything I can to help them succeed. REPLY 260. justsmtSeptember 30, 2010 at 9:16 PM # “What your mother did is called “enabling”, not ego-stroking.” I’m back one last time here before I move on, as I forgot to address this earlier… “Enabling” yes that exactly what my mother did now that I’ve looked up its exact meaning in this case, I agree. However she also stroked my ego too unnecessarily. It was a combination of these things that helped lead to my problems later on. Not having “life skills” like what Kristina is giving to her kids, plus the ego thing which was way out of line with my actual confidence level, skill sets, and abilities at the time. I love Kristina’s approach to addressing this problem of complaining by asking those sets of questions she poses. It is brilliant. Actually now that I think about it, when I gained the enthusiasm to get out there and make things happen, whether it was taking up a hobby with a group of others or a training course or asking out a girl, I think I actually asked myself some of the same things “is this life threatening, is it going to kill me? No!” I just never really put it in words what good these sort of questions did before hearing it from her. REPLY 261. OutsideLookingOverOctober 1, 2010 at 6:45 AM # Am I the only one seeing this, or does Kristina’s response dignify justsmt’s post? Not to be disrespectful, but in the light of what has been explained here, his post is blatantly ludicrous. Again, he hasn’t read or learned anything. He’s defending his entitlement, which he doesn’t see as the really nasty thing it is. So, why is she dignify his self-serving, tiny-minded “it’s all about me” bleat with any sort of response at all? Particularly a response as patient and sweet as Kristina’s? I’m not criticising you, Kristina, but I *am* amazed that you put up with this nonsense and try to explain something to the clearly clueless. See, this is where I get lost. So often, I see woman *giving* (and it *IS* a gift!!) this patience to a man because she realises his thick- headedness: my awe is *boundless*. And the more I recognise this patience and see it in action, the more I see my own inability to perceive the world because of my own ego? entitled attitude? monochromatic all-about- me thinking? Oh, do I hate that and OH am I embarrassed. I fight it tooth and nail, but it is stubbornly there. Like alcoholism, or some drug addiction. Or bad breath, except bad breath hurts no one but embarrasses the heck out of you. I called an anaesthetist on his entitled views a few days ago. Forget the exact circumstances but summarised it with “well, that’s to be expected a normal man with an entitled mindset”. Then I looked directly at this anaesthetist and said: “of course, you wouldn’t feel implicated by that, would you?” Whereupon he immediately implicated himself with: “No, not in the least!” Those males who deny that the disease of entitlement sits deep within us will unwittingly succumb to the symptoms without understanding what it is that is preventing us from having a meaningful relationship with humans… *all* humans. “Man is defined as a human being and a woman as a female — whenever she behaves as a human being she is said to imitate the male.” Simone de Beauvoir put her finger on this pulse. Key point here is “she is said”. By whom? Also, I’m convinced she was describing the likes of clueless Justsmt when she said: “A man attaches himself to woman — not to enjoy her, but to enjoy himself. ” There is so much to learn on these pages, and so many directions of light to take. Again, my undying gratitude for Nine Deuce’s courage and energy to give these vital concepts a starting space, a point of departure. And to all you wonderful women who have given so much patience: my deepest admiration. Let that patience not be for nought. REPLY 262. beckiOctober 1, 2010 at 7:00 AM # I’m an animal activist and I have to say that men eat meat more than women. They’re stupid, violent, irrational brutes and they don’t even realize it. I agree with everything said here. They only care for their own good. 99.99999999% of all animal and human rights activists are women. Why? Because men honestly don’t give a crap about anything, it’s in their genes. Take the bloke I had an argument with not too long ago: I told him that eating meat brutally kills animals all the time (some idiots think they’re given an easy death by lethal pills) and he argued that meat is needed to live. Bullshit! I had to educate him for about an hour about how you CAN live without eating meat and how you can replace it by for instance soy. After I countered all his idiotic points about how animals aren’t as intelligent as we are (Pfft so what? Do you kill mentally handicapped people too because some of them can’t speak or build houses? Besides, animals are smarter than men.) or how they have a happy life and a swift death (Literally laughed at that), he decided to just go with the “well I’m a man and I like the taste of meat”. I felt so furious and helpless. I ended up slapping that idiot right accross the face. He deserved it, he was snickering at everything I said without even taking me seriously because I’m a woman. Never before have I ever felt so liberated. It’s always the men hitting women but I could finally stand up for myself. Usually the women eat meat only do it because they’ve been misled by the media, they think there’s no alternative or because of social pressure. Men on the other hand INDULGE in violence and killing animals. I mean literally. The example I gave is just one of many. Anyway keep up the good work ladies. I love you all! REPLY 263. HecateOctober 1, 2010 at 10:16 AM # Another article fussing over male egos. Blech! http://www.alternet.org/story/148291/why_do_we_demonize_men_who_are_hones t_about_their_sexual_needs/comments/ REPLY 264. FedeOctober 1, 2010 at 12:44 PM # Ah, that was good laugh, justsmt! OutsideLO – come live with me? You can bring your partner; mine says it’s fine. ;) REPLY 265. kristinaOctober 1, 2010 at 3:43 PM # OutsideLO – it’s taken me great practice to be able to have ANY patience, and it’s almost only online I’m able to display any at all…In person I can be very hot headed…I really don’t think I was being supportive of any mansplaining… No matter how thick headed someone is I just hope what I can say can get through…who knows, if they listen to me, they might start listening to others… I would display patience to anyone thick headed or not (if I could muster it at the time…I’m not perfect)..I know the things that damaged me as a child and subsequently as an adult, and a lack of patience displayed by people I interact with has a LOT to do with my social anxiety, general anxiety, depression, etc… Me as a person, not as a woman doesn’t want to make an already uncomfortable situation any worse…I just know what used to make me feel like I wanted to die, and a lack of patience from people I interacted with caused me many problems, problems I wouldn’t wish on anyone else no matter what their sex or orientation. I don’t think there is a problem with the “qualities women posses” (men posses them too, if they would work on it), I think there is a problem when we’re the only ones possessing this quality, and having others take advantage of it..I mean think about it…what socially defined “female quality of character” wouldn’t you want, if everyone returned those qualities equally to you? It only becomes a hindrance when assholes take advantage of it…which yes is the world we live in today, but I guess I’m an optimist (even though I display pessimistic attitudes when it comes to myself)… I will admit I was kind of offended, even though it was not your intention..sometimes I feel as though I’m not “feminist enough”, whatever that means… that’s my problem though. REPLY 266. GraceMargaretOctober 1, 2010 at 5:46 PM # I couldn’t get to the article, Hecate, do you have to be a member of alternet? But let me guess, poor men, we demonize them for being honest about seeing women as nothing but walking slabs of meat that they want to just f*ck and forget? I mean they’re being *honest* about it, isn’t honesty a noble quality? How dare we demonize them for that? Women are just awful! Becki, although it’s tempting to think, no, it’s NOT in their genes. Men get it. Why do they celebrate people like Nelson Mandela and Ghandi and Jesus and the Buddha and all the other Great Men In History. Male supremacists want you to believe that it’s their genes, it relieves them of any responsibility for their actions. REPLY 267. OutsideLookingOverOctober 1, 2010 at 6:53 PM # @Kristina, I apologise for offending you. I realise as I re-read my post that what I said was offensive. Regardless of my intent (to demonstrate that women exercise infinitely more patience and tolerance and consideration than men ever do), I did do what I had no intention of doing: to offend you. This dialogue does serve to illustrate my point, though. Men (which unfortunately includes me) typically don’t think – even when sitting in front of a keyboard, where there is ample opportunity – before they speak. That is the way it is, but it is not acceptable. Which puts me in exactly the same category as JustSMT… I should have included a caveat explaining that I was trying to say that Kristina responded so patiently, so nicely to someone who had about much clue about where he was as a epicurean suggesting a Duck a l’Orange recipe on a vegan site… why that patience? Not a criticism, just an expression of wonderment and wanting to know. In my case, for instance, half my brain cells were waiting on the sidelines until I’d finished responding, when I should have engaged them to think about how Kristina might feel to being publicly critiqued for validating JustSMT by responding to his points. And this is what I mean about patience and consideration and tolerance. I do apologise for using this inappropriate conduct of mine to illustrate a point: I am in no wise validating my position or my behaviour. I was wrong to be so inconsiderate of your feelings. Yes, men possess those qualities (patience and tolerance and consideration) too. Every now and then, when they think about it, they will engage the brain and invoke them. If they are taught at an early age that it *is* more important to try to achieve resolution to conflict via conciliation and dialogue and being willing to work on coming to a win- win situation versus taking a combative approach – which is what you appear to be doing with your boys, for which you should be held in highest esteem by society – then the process won’t be foreign to them at crunch time when they are adults. You’ve already undertaken to empower your sons to see all humans as humans and not a selected gender. But, this site isn’t about men and *their* issues: whether their egos have been stroked enough and whether mum did something wrong. It’s about women and the fact they haven’t the same rights as men do. Entitled non- listeners choose to ignore this because it’s all “too-hard basket” or because they feel that truth is too threatening to their preferred status-quo or (in JustSMT’s case) he’s too busy explaining a “very important concept” which he doesn’t realise glaringly exposes a complete lack of understanding about his own blindness to what is really going on. But his post does serve one purpose: to reinforce to those who have finally caught on just how deeply ingrained entitlement is in blokes. Even in those of us who deplore it, it is there to bedevil us, to mock us, to embarrass us, and worst of all, to continue making life hell for women around us. Again, I say this as kindly as I can to JustSMT: read the posts on this blog. Listen to what is being explained. Read it again. Listen very, very closely: whilst you are reading, *listen* to what the writer is saying, not to your own protestations. This will doubtlessly be a new experience for you if you achieve this. And then you may “get it”. And you’ll understand why I am blushing for you. Again, Kristina, I apologise for what I said: I most certainly wasn’t criticising you as a person for being lovely and patient. I am expressing a completely frank puzzlement at the revelation / observation that women *are* so patient with men and this blinding ‘disability’ they cling to… and I am doing it very poorly, very inconsiderately. We as males must end this ‘disability’ state in ourselves. It is extremely limiting and creates a horrible environment for half the population, those that many of us claim to love. There must be a way that the entitled (without being gender-dysphoric) can arrive at the “a-ha” and end this hell for women. REPLY 268. kristinaOctober 1, 2010 at 7:52 PM # I know you didn’t mean it like that… I also thank you for the perspective you gave me in your following post…yes this is a site devoted to women’s issues and men do come on here bleating about theirs…I never quite looked at it that way…perhaps my indoctrination as a woman to be considerate…Sometimes I just can’t get the tough love approach, it was something I was raised with, but found it caused me to lose a lot of time along the way to form relationships with my family members…As an adult I appreciate what was done, but when I was younger it served as a division, and much to my regret missing out on a lot of personal relationships until it was too late (deaths in my family)..it still haunts me… I also want to point out I am not always patient…so please, don’t think I’m all flowers and roses…I have a fiery side that gets brought out when needed… maybe I should just start serving shit sandwiches..lol… you know… nice stuff as one bun, all the doo doo in the middle, then maybe one more nice point…lol… REPLY 269. OutsideLookingOverOctober 1, 2010 at 8:08 PM # To read Hecate’s article, GraceMargaret, cancel that subscription invitation and just try it again. I did read it. The writer called herself a feminist, but gave no indication that she had any concept of male entitlement. To me it sounded more like an apology for her lifestyle than anything else. She had her own agenda. S & M and B & D (and cross-dressing/transvestism/drag-queen) feed heavily on that state, without which the whole fetish/lifestyle would implode. In my experience, most transsexuals (M to F) focus mostly on having a feminine appearance (passing) with little or no understanding of something they live every day: being a male and using/abusing the privileges of same in a world that for the most part either sanctions and supports it, or allows it, or is defenceless against it. Seems only women understand the concept, and then, only some seem to want to acknowledge it. REPLY 270. OutsideLookingOverOctober 1, 2010 at 8:16 PM # What a lovely thought, Fede. :) Thank you… and give your partner a thank-you hug (or smile, whichever is easier to accept) from me. :) REPLY 271. BluecatOctober 2, 2010 at 3:00 PM # But, this site isn’t about men and *their* issues: whether their egos have been stroked enough and whether mum did something wrong. It’s about women and the fact they haven’t the same rights as men do. Entitled non- listeners choose to ignore this because it’s all “too-hard basket” or because they feel that truth is too threatening to their preferred status-quo or (in JustSMT’s case) he’s too busy explaining a “very important concept” which he doesn’t realise glaringly exposes a complete lack of understanding about his own blindness to what is really going on. Exactly. Did JustSMT take the time to read 92’s post carefully before responding? No. Was he the slightest bit concerned about his post being consistent with the tone of discussion here? No. Did he display any hint of respect for this site or the conversation in this thread? No. So why does he think he deserves the least bit of respect in return? Because he’s oozing with entitlement, that’s why. Quintessential man interrupting a conversation about women’s issues to wax arrogantly about his Very Important Mancreature Problems, plus a bonus mansplanation about the male ego, which us silly little “girls” are presumed to know nothing about because Venusians are just stupid that way, etc. Classic trolling, classic gender essentialism, classic male entitlement. With more entitlement thrown in for good measure when Very Important Mancreature proceeds to rebuke 99% of his responders for not being appropriately nurturing mommy figures who have egregeiously neglected to wipe his fevered brow and croon gentle reassurances into his big fat trolly ear. It’s called karma: if you bluster onto a feminist blog wearing your entitlement on your sleeve, be prepared to suffer the consequences. But as he stated previously, his mommy made him into a fragile-shelled narcissist who can’t abide anything less than reverential treatment from others, irrespective of how he treats them (apparently). Not to mention, he’s still completely off the mark about what “ego- stroking” is. He’s going on and on about how his mommy was too nice to him or something, when he appears to be talking about lack of boundaries or whatever. I can’t make heads nor tails of it and I’m becoming increasingly disinclined to try. All I know is, dude has serious entitlement issues and needs to shut up and start listening instead. REPLY 272. FedeOctober 2, 2010 at 4:28 PM # I know the case of justsmt is actually terrifically sad, but at this beautiful summary, “Quintessential man interrupting a conversation about women’s issues to wax arrogantly about his Very Important Mancreature Problems, plus a bonus mansplanation about the male ego, which us silly little “girls” are presumed to know nothing about because Venusians are just stupid that way, etc. Classic trolling, classic gender essentialism, classic male entitlement. With more entitlement thrown in for good measure when Very Important Mancreature proceeds to rebuke 99% of his responders for not being appropriately nurturing mommy figures who have egregeiously neglected to wipe his fevered brow and croon gentle reassurances into his big fat trolly ear” I admit to bursting out laughing. REPLY 273. GraceMargaretOctober 2, 2010 at 5:23 PM # OutsideLookingOver, I did manage do get to the article; it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be, but you’re right, the author had no real grasp male entitlement or privilege. Her statement that porn doesn’t contribute to rape culture with absolutely nothing to back it up other than she says so was really irritating. And for the life of me, how people like the author can’t see how completely messed up it is that sadism and masochism ever got mixed up with sensual/sexual pleasure is a never-ending source of amazement to me. People who are pro-bondage and domination and sadism and masochism really can’t see how the eroticizing of power and powerlessness could possibly be problematic, especially for women and children, considering the socio-economic disparity that exist in the typical family unit that creates their dependence and powerlessness? Yes, I KNOW, they choose it. But they’re mimicking a situation where people don’t have a choice, isn’t that what makes it ‘sexy’? It reminds me of that other dystopian novel, Instead of using force, the solution is to get people to love their slavery. “We want the whip!” – Aldous Huxley, Brave New World REPLY 274. joyOctober 2, 2010 at 6:11 PM # Aw, JustSMT, I’m so glad you called my words “lovely.” Thanks for stroking my ego. REPLY 275. OutsideLookingOverOctober 3, 2010 at 1:00 AM # I’ve been sitting here thinking and thinking about your post, GraceMargaret. Just as this blog has opened my eyes to the reality women see every day, your illuminating views on the dom/sub mindset has thrown a completely new perspective on what I formerly thought of as: “oh well, if it gets them off”. Of course, now I see pornography for what it really is and prostitution for what *it* really is because of insights by women speaking clearly about the basis of these things. It stands to reason that there really *is* a very black origin with real victims in this “lifestyle”. As I examine my own life and the effect my gender issues have on my wife and daughters, I can’t help but worry that in seeking to “find myself” I am somehow having a negative impact on their lives. My partner says I think too much, but reading all this and learning from you all and listening to first you and subsequently them (the girls and their mother), I can’t help but think. Love for those women in my life requires I think about things like that. As my conversation with Kristina illustrated: we as males don’t think enough about the other person and their feelings and what effect we are having on lives around us. _Sometimes_, it’s not so much calculated villainy as plain selfish thoughtlessness, but the net effect is the same. Thank you, GraceMargaret. REPLY 276. roesmokerOctober 3, 2010 at 2:07 AM # GraceMargaret, I agree. I have a friend who’s in the community and she knew I had reservations about it but when we talked about it all she could say is that she always liked it (in her case being tied up with ropes) and she was never abused or molested or had trauma happen to her that would condition her to it. I don’t know because she is a good friend and it doesn’t feel right for me to tell anyone how they should feel but to me it seems like the ultimate internalizing of the patriarchy. The patriarchy fetishizes dominance and submission because it helps keep us down. REPLY 277. FedeOctober 3, 2010 at 4:31 AM # @joy: Yes, it is amazing, isn’t it, that this stupendous waste of thread space – JustSoMuchThoughtlessness – has the audacity to try to make his opponents feel guilty about THEIR tone towards HIM? @justsmt: If people are making fun of you, it is because otherwise, they’d have to tear you a new one. So really, they are stroking your ego. REPLY 278. lizorOctober 3, 2010 at 10:05 AM # I was going to repost that excellent quote from Bluecat to express my immense appreciation, but Fede beat me to it. It’s great comments like this that add so much to this already wonderful site. REPLY 279. GraceMargaretOctober 3, 2010 at 12:24 PM # I wouldn’t even say it fetishizes dominance and submission: it’s the *real vanilla flavor of patriarchy. It’s built completely on cruelty, slavery, hierarchy, domination, child abuse, and rape. That there are people who think they are doing something shocking or transgressive by acting out the everyday abuse that it inflicts and has inflicted on countless of lives for thousands of years is sadly amusing. REPLY 280. joyOctober 3, 2010 at 1:50 PM # @ Fede: ” Yes, it is amazing, isn’t it, that this stupendous waste of thread space – JustSoMuchThoughtlessness – has the audacity to try to make his opponents feel guilty about THEIR tone towards HIM?” Oddly, I wasn’t even addressing him. I never addressed him, until above. HIS whole diatribe, it seems, was in response to something I wrote before he even got here! “@justsmt: If people are making fun of you, it is because otherwise, they’d have to tear you a new one. So really, they are stroking your ego.” So true. I just don’t feel like wasting the time refuting, explaining, or even being too mean. I’ll just settle for sarcasm. REPLY 281. joyOctober 3, 2010 at 1:50 PM # GraceMargaret: “it’s the *real vanilla flavor of patriarchy. It’s built completely on cruelty, slavery, hierarchy, domination, child abuse, and rape. That there are people who think they are doing something shocking or transgressive by acting out the everyday abuse that it inflicts and has inflicted on countless of lives for thousands of years is sadly amusing.” That is so true, and very well-spoken! I don’t think I’ve ever seen so true and concise a summary before. REPLY 282. HecateOctober 3, 2010 at 2:44 PM # Hi GraceMargaret, Sorry you had trouble accessing the article. Alternet has changed the format of its comment section at least 10 times in the past 6 months. I hope they make their minds up soon, or even I will tire of leaving posts. The typical commenters their are a bit like Bill Maher (as ND wrote of him) in the sense that they are very liberal indeed, unless of course you start on the topic of removing male access to female bodies. So yeah, those are not my favorite people, to say the least. REPLY 283. kristinaOctober 3, 2010 at 5:16 PM # “it’s the *real vanilla flavor of patriarchy. It’s built completely on cruelty, slavery, hierarchy, domination, child abuse, and rape. That there are people who think they are doing something shocking or transgressive by acting out the everyday abuse that it inflicts and has inflicted on countless of lives for thousands of years is sadly amusing.” I agree…I have always thought of BDSM as a “coping mechanism” to the world around us (patriarchy) it gives a false sense of safety…much like a cutter fears pain, yet clings to it in what they perceive a “safe way” which is also seen as “extreme” to express it. I used to be a cutter…and in a cliche I will say that my faith cured me of it…I really have no other explanation…one day I woke up, tried to use my usual coping system…and it just didn’t work. It actually got me more depressed at first because I still had my same problems, but no coping mechanism..much like how those in BDSM who shy away from their “desires” are severely depressed…yes it may make you feel better, but have you honestly tried a better coping mechanism that didn’t revolve around sexual activity? If what I assert is true that patriarchy causes this coping mechanism, I’d hardly say any sexual activity is going to remedy it. I also forgot to mention that the extremes of dom/sub that BDSM displays would be more effective than “vanilla” sex because of the overt control that is established, and the subsequent “trust” this creates…trust with your desired partner based on your orientation could be the exact thing that you’re missing and why “vanilla” won’t work…I’m sure we can all agree that patriarchy pits women against women (those who aren’t fully aware of the issues anyway), men against women, and men against men. It’s just a thought though… REPLY 284. Sean BOctober 24, 2010 at 8:43 PM # You have never met me, but you still hate me… I’m really sorry you feel that way. I have good friends and would consider myself a decent person, but I guess because I have a penis it doesn’t matter. Why do you hate me for something I didn’t choose? REPLY o Nine DeuceOctober 24, 2010 at 10:08 PM # Did you even READ the post? REPLY 285. OutsideLookingOverOctober 25, 2010 at 3:20 AM # Sean, please don’t be an embarrassment. Read before leaving a comment. I know that’s not typical male behaviour, males who think with their frail egos – “why do you hate me?” – but hey, just for once, try to think like a human and read what’s been written before making a remark. Who knows, you might even have the good sense to blush when you’ve read a bit. REPLY 286. kristinaOctober 25, 2010 at 7:53 AM # Sean…seriously…murderers can be thought to be a “good person” by their friends and family members…men who look at porn can be considered good people too….YUCK!!! Frankly we’re tired of the standards being set so low…get a grip! REPLY 287. skeptifemOctober 25, 2010 at 6:20 PM # Hey sean b- take the feeling you got from the post just now, and imagine what it would be like if your bosses, police officers, college professors, family members, random people on the street, etc expressed that to you. NOW you know why your hurt feewings are so irrelevant, I hope? Society hating you hurts a lot worse. Its the paradox of masculinity- the ideology of it can only exist in a structure that worships it. Macho dudes would crumble under the pressure of a single day of femalehood. REPLY 288. IsmeOctober 27, 2010 at 5:15 PM # At least the phrase “nice guy” didn’t come up. REPLY 289. psychicOctober 28, 2010 at 8:27 AM # I love this article, I HATE MEN too, and let me tell you why. I haven´t always been this way and it saddens me to have to resort to cynical hatred against a whole race, but what can I say those fucking pricks have driven me to the verge of radical feminism. Let me start with my loser dad, who gambled over half a million bucks away, lied and treated me and my mum terribly. PRICK!!!!!!!!!! Ohh and the fucking harrasment and discrimination I have had to endure over the years in my job. I am more intelligent than most of the fucking dickhead neandertals I have worked with over the past six years, yet they seem to take it in there priveleged male strides to treat me nothing more than a dumb useless women. On one occasion ON MY FIRST DAY in an office where I was temping, some fat ugly cunt who thought he was the fucking shit decided that he would bombard me with porn via email, oh and get this, when I was rude to him and refused to do as he asked, looked at me with such utter astonishment as to why on earth I would react this way, you know taking into consideration the circumstances, I mean he had given me HIS attention. Silly me for being so damn ungrateful. Ladies it gets worse, his wife, yes, had just had a baby she then came to the office at the end of the day, he then preceded to purposefully flirt with me in front of her face to get her jealous, whilst his kid was there, can you believe it. I wished he would burn and die and rot in hell. Then last year I was working at a school, I had an unruly class where I was having to shout a lot. So a male colleague in the room next to me took it upon himself to come in to my class and take over. Then precede to tell me that I am not taken seriuosly by the kids because I am a women. Funny thing is turns out this guy had a really small dick and erectile dysfunction. Mmmm any wonders why he is a misogynistic sexist prick. In the same establishemt there was also some ex marine prick who thought it was his privelege to come into my personal space and ask me “do i make you nervous”?. He was a complete bully. The list can go on and on. What gets me most is the inherent lack of self analysis and complete disregard for the way they behave, and they think we are supposed to adore them and like they way they act, and we are the bitches who are supposed to avoid bruising their already dumb ass over inflated fucking egos. FUCK THEM ALL!!!! Oh and the utter two facedness of them all makes me sick to my very stomach and even stronger in my resolve that I will never trust a man ever. They all talk bad about their wives or girlfriends. Will flirt and try it on with any other women that they deem to be more attractive than the one they are already with. Yes I am a sad, bitter, twisted ranting feminist(and proud I might add), but what fucking choice do I have? I just wanted to have a career and a family and a nice boyfriend, but you fucking patriachal war mongerers have made it impossible for a women to be anything but some fucking inflatable objectified blow up doll here to only serve your needs. They are fucking the world up, for every person in this world those sadistic power hungry assholes spend 10 dollars on weaponry and warfare, in comparison, to 0.5 cents on education and healthcare. Yep folks that is the world view they are promoting, let us go around like stupid apes with no education nuking everyone to death. This is our reality and it has to change. More women in power and feminine principles are the only way things can ever improve. Peace out sisters xxx REPLY 290. GraceMargaretOctober 29, 2010 at 10:13 PM # This is for sean b (and all them female bloggers and internet users who have to deal with his type): http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444 REPLY 291. ChristinaOctober 30, 2010 at 6:54 AM # I have had many similar experiences at airports and on planes as I fly quite a bit. I also had the awful experience of enduring a 2 hour flight delay. The vast majority of those waiting to board the plane where white business men. Even tough I got to the airport very early before most of them had arrived; they eventfully took over the entire waiting area. I had a very large white male sitting next to me. He kept rubbing up against me. It was really awful. I was sitting at the end of the row and found my self almost been pushed off the end. They were loud, they were arrogant, and they were constantly speaking really loud to each other and on their cell phones. They literally owned the place and didn’t give a damn about anyone around them. Been the only black girl amongst all these loud and arrogant white males was really very intimidating. There were some white women waiting there to and they seemed equally as frustrated as I was of having to put up with all this male shit. REPLY 292. ismeOctober 30, 2010 at 10:47 AM # “This is for sean b (and all them female bloggers and internet users who have to deal with his type): http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444 ” Oh, that’s awesome. REPLY 293. Sean BOctober 31, 2010 at 3:25 PM # Just so you know I’m really not trying to be offensive, I don’t think I’m better than any of you. I know there are a lot of guys who are jerks (yes I have to deal with them too) but I just think it’s a little immature to judge an entire group of people based off the experiences with a couple. I don’t live in America though, things are probably a lot different over here in The Netherlands. There is really not much discrimination over here, so sorry for my lack of experience about that. I try not to judge anyone based on things they can’t control. I’m really sorry if you gals took offense to what I said, or think I’m some kind of sexist pig. REPLY o Nine DeuceOctober 31, 2010 at 5:30 PM # “I’m really sorry if you…” is not an apology, it’s placing blame elsewhere. Gals? No discrimination in The Netherlands? Hilarious. REPLY 294. OutsideLookingOverOctober 31, 2010 at 4:53 PM # Nope, don’t think he *did* read any of this post or look at the Gabby site as suggested. Typical. Interesting that men *can* have insights into this – gabby is a bloke, apparently. Good read, that. You’re missing out by reading this (if you did read anything) with your entitlement/privilege glasses on, Sean. Take ’em off and have another read. REPLY 295. kristinaNovember 1, 2010 at 8:05 AM # “but I just think it’s a little immature to judge an entire group of people based off the experiences with a couple” A couple???? seriously??? You seem to be implying that feminism is about hating men…it’s NOT!!! It’s about hating systematic oppression of women perpetuated by most men…yes even you… “I try not to judge anyone based on things they can’t control” Well we generally believe that men can control their actions, and we hold them accountable…seems to fit in with your paradigm, that is unless you believe men can’t control their actions…but again I guess I forgot you’re choosing to believe we hate men, and not hate what they do…we hate what they do dipshit…the fact that you can’t separate that from WHO men are, means we hate YOU. If you can’t honestly see that what you have between your legs doesn’t determine your actions then you are a lost cause…your penis does not have control over you, you are in charge of your actions therefore if feminists hate men’s actions and not the fact that they own a penis, women do NOT hate men… easy enough??? The title of the post is said with a large sigh…it’s a strawman argument we come in contact with in EVERY debate, and there is no use fighting it because men will come here saying they can’t control what genitalia they were born with and are basically blaming their own genitalia for the things they do…you know they can’t control themselves enough to stop raping because they have a penis, and it gets hard, and they can’t think, and next thing they know the girl was begging for it…. *YUCK* We don’t believe that…men do…so think about the side you’re fighting on. REPLY 296. GraceMargaretNovember 1, 2010 at 2:28 PM # I may be changing my plea to guilty if I hear more conversations like this. From Drinks With Writers, a little exchange between two guys. A writer, Christopher Hitchens and a journalist, Anthony Layser from asylum.com: AL: You’ve been fairly successful at it [marriage]. CH: The journalism? (smirk) AL: And the marriage… CH: (bigger smirk) I’ve been lucky I guess. Women have been very kind to me. AL: You’ve stressed that a lot in this book (Hitch-22). Women have nurtured you quite a bit. CH: I can’t believe how generous these people are. What do they see in us, do you think? AL: I don’t know. We’re useless….sometimes. CH. Well, they’re very forgiving is all I can tell you. AL: Yeah. You just have to find the forgiving…the right forgiving woman. CH: You sure do. The indulgent type. AL: Yeah. (Me: Barf.) Last night I was watching BookTV and there was a great debate between Hitchens and David Berlinski on Atheism vs. Theism. Well, great on the part of Hitchens at least. Berlinski said a whole lot of nothing, dodged questions, and kept associating nonbelief in a diety with the rise of fascism with pretty much nothing to back it up. Hitchens is articulate, intelligent, understands history, oppression, totalitarianism, counts Orwell and Thomas Paine among his heros, yet treats his wife like she’s nothing (she’s the indulgent type, don’t worry) and hits on his daughter’s schoolmates. In his Memoimor Hitch-22 he talks about having to deal with ‘feminine embarrassment’ on the part of his daughter: She asks him, what will she tell people when they ask ‘what is Old Christopher Hitchens doing kissing that girl?’ when she enrolls in the school where he is a teacher. Why would his daughter possibly be embarrassed that her Dad, a teacher at her school and a married man, be kissing girls at her school? He is struggling with cancer and I feel for him and wish him good health and recovery, but as someone who is so articulate in so many areas of his life, why does he not grasp the concept that women are actually people, not doormats who should always be indulging and forgiving your bad treatment? That smirk on his face during the interview makes it obvious he does get it, he just doesn’t care. Hearing stuff like this makes me want to hate men. I’m not the indulgent type. REPLY 297. HecateNovember 1, 2010 at 8:43 PM # Brilliant post, GraceMargaret. Thank you for calling these jerks out on their disgraceful behavior and affect. I’ve dealt with similar smug attitudes from men all my life, and it ain’t gettin’ easier. I was recently engaged to a man who by all appearances seemed a decent, honest fellow, but now he’s broken it off because he’d rather be with a woman ten years older who ‘mothers’ him. And he was angry at me for being upset and not forgiving him on the spot! Is that nerve, or what? So what was I supposed to say “Hey I hope you and grandma have a wonderful life together dude! Call me any time honey bunch!” “Kisses!” Really, if I thought men had any kind of emotional maturity at all, I truly would give them the benefit of the doubt a lot more often. But experience has proven to me that alas, they do not. It’s not my loss whatsoever, because I think we all have better things to do than polish a male ego and mollycoddle horrid little boy-men. REPLY 298. OutsideLookingOverNovember 2, 2010 at 5:03 AM # Speaking of “Nice Guys” – this site: http://sexyvideogameland.blogspot.com/2010/06/you-look-nice-miss.html … has a very enlightening perspective on that whole “Smile For Me” concept. It might be wishful thinking, but I really truly think that lights may be going on. On an art site I subscribe to, a woman expressing her disinclination to create art designed to inflame/excite/whatever because of its dehumanising effect, which she considered the greatest immorality. She very bravely shared those views in a thread on a forum extolling the virtues of a new skin texture. This is what 98.6% of this site produces: art designed to excite/inflame… Anyway, the expected “oh-buts” did come, but so did some very unexpected praise appear as well as support. It was from this woman that I received the above link. Today, I got a patient out from the Operating Theatre, accompanied by the scrub sister. She gave me handover, then, to sort-of give me perspective on what I might have to deal with, said somewhat sotto-voce that he was “ummmm…” She seemed a bit unsure how to define him, so I prompted: “Precious?” Equivocal gesture. “Entitled?” She wagged her finger at me, looking at me a bit in surprise. ‘A bloke who understands the concept of entitled’?? “Spot on! That’s exactly it!” REPLY 299. Sean BNovember 2, 2010 at 6:36 PM # I sincerely apologize for offending you ladies. I cannot see how you are so hateful towards me for apologizing though. I am not trying to shift the blame, I am sorry if I implied that. Yes I did read the article, and a lot of the comments. If I did not pick up on something in the article I apologize, hopefully you understand that English is not my first language. It is hard for me to pick up on things like sarcasm, so I assume when it says that she hates men, that she means it. Some of the women on here seem to be very hating to men. Nine, I do not think that you have actually spent enough time in Europe. The UK is very different from the rest of Europe. There are so many different cultures and races living close to each other that discrimination cannot be overlooked like in big countries like America. At least in my school and many others, students learned the history and language of different countries. I think a lot of the negative American stereotype is due to a general lack of knowledge about other countries. I don’t agree with stereotypes, but I can see where it comes from. I can’t get how anyone can be so judgmental of somebody based on their race, gender, or region. Misogamy is just as bad as misandry, I hope I got the terms right. What I want to mean is that women in America who are bigots towards men can’t expect men to not be bigoted towards women. I just find it interesting that if there was an article about hating Africans, or Muslims, or Jews, lots of people would be upset, but a article like this is appreciated and treated like a good thing. REPLY o Nine DeuceNovember 2, 2010 at 11:45 PM # Sean B, please go away. You do not get what’s going on and you’re tiring everyone. REPLY 300. FedeNovember 3, 2010 at 1:02 AM # Sean B, fuck off. English is not my first language either, but that’s far from a good enough excuse for being as much of an arsehole as you have been here. The systemic oppression of women is not limited to the US, Sean B. I’m a Dane, I should know. People who have any kind of sense hate men, yes. Men – and I certainly don’t mean just a few individual men – have given us ample reason to hate them. We have loved them back for millennia, but it’s not going to work anymore. We now finally hate them back with a fury that almost approaches the white-hot rage that for absolutely no reason, 99,99999999% of men always take out on women. We hate men as a rule, yes, and with few exceptions. You are not one of them. We do not, however, hate men for having dicks. You moron. In fact, men’s dicks are among the few good things I can name about them as a class. It is not your biological sex that makes you despicable to me, Sean B. REPLY 301. GraceMargaretNovember 4, 2010 at 1:04 AM # It doesn’t matter what you say or how nice you say it…if you support women’s human rights you’ll be accused of hating men anyway. You don’t even have to use the word man or mention men at all, just saying something pro-women’s rights will earn you the label man-hater. Women are treated like some weird special interest group. When men stand up for their human rights, they are noble and heroic, we have national holidays and days off in their honor. When women stand up for the exact same things, we are bitching, man-hating, whining, despicable freaks. Just compare Thomas Jefferson to Susan B. Anthony. Jefferson owned slaves, had sex with(raped) one of them (some people actually try to paint it as a consensual, even romantic, relationship [See: Sally Hemings, An American Love Story starring Sam Neil]), didn’t believe over half the human population should have any rights in a democracy. Susan B. Anthony started out as an anti-slavery/civil rights activist before she became a feminist, supported the human rights of men and women of all races, was arrested, tried and convicted for voting illegally (pre- Nineteenth amendment)http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/anthony/anthon yaddress.html. Which of these two would be considered a champion of freedom and democracy by most people? Which of these two would be considered a cranky, whiny, hater of the opposite sex by most people? And which of these two actually supported a true democracy? *(I know not everyone here is an American, I just don’t have as much knowledge of the suffrage/women’s movements of other countries as I do the U.S. If there’s a country where feminists aren’t reviled and are honored and celebrated at a national level, please do share.) REPLY 302. lizorNovember 4, 2010 at 5:58 AM # Grace Margaret; That post rocks. Thank you. REPLY 303. ismeNovember 4, 2010 at 6:15 AM # “When men stand up for their human rights, they are noble and heroic, we have national holidays and days off in their honor.” Only after they win. Should women ever get equal rights, people will (eventually) view history rather differently. “*(I know not everyone here is an American, I just don’t have as much knowledge of the suffrage/women’s movements of other countries as I do the U.S. If there’s a country where feminists aren’t reviled and are honored and celebrated at a national level, please do share.)” I doubt it. Mind you, America does seem to be rather worse than the rest of the English speaking world. REPLY 304. sneeky bunnyNovember 4, 2010 at 10:34 AM # Beautifully put GraceMargaret. REPLY 305. joyNovember 4, 2010 at 11:27 AM # “Only after they win. Should women ever get equal rights, people will (eventually) view history rather differently.” You’re much more of an optimist than I am. I’m pretty sure it’s never coming. It hasn’t happened so far. REPLY 306. ChristinaNovember 4, 2010 at 1:17 PM # Feminists spend far too much time trying to prove to men that they are not man haters and are only trying to protect women and get then equal rights. First of all why would any feminist want to justify any thing to a man. If she is a man hater then good for her. Secondly feminists must wake-up and realize that we are been called man haters because we have the audacity to challenge male domination and male privilege. Men resent this. Men have no interest in giving up their male domination and privilege. Therefore instead of us always been so damn submissive to men and their shit we need to stop wasting our time by trying to prove that we are man haters and always wanting to please them. We need to start standing together. If feminists and women as a whole were able to stand together we would be able to purge America and Europe of male domination and their disgusting sexist privileges REPLY 307. ismeNovember 5, 2010 at 2:03 AM # “I’m pretty sure it’s never coming. It hasn’t happened so far.” Well, it’s only been 12-13k years, still plenty of time. Less flippantly, it’s own fairly recently that the “men just are better than women” pseudoscience has been disproved. Advances are being made (you don’t get a backlash until you’ve got something to lash back against), just horribly slowly. “If feminists and women as a whole were able to stand together we would be able to purge America and Europe of male domination and their disgusting sexist privileges” Overnight. Depending on your point of view, it’s either horrifying, embarrasing or maybe even darkly humourous how many of the most serious of problems would vanish instantly if people could be bothered waking the fuck up and thinking. REPLY 308. FedeNovember 5, 2010 at 6:05 AM # I’d like your permission to quote that post, GraceMargaret. What a perfectly illustrative example. REPLY 309. europeanNovember 5, 2010 at 4:17 PM # I think its in Denmark, where over 70% of men describe themselves as feminists REPLY 310. GraceMargaretNovember 5, 2010 at 4:54 PM # Fede, Yes, of course. Sorry the link didn’t come through, it was to Susan B. Anthony’s speech: “Is it a Crime for a Citizen of the United States to Vote?” She was such a brilliant, amazing woman. It’s sad that so many American women disavow themselves from feminism when, if it weren’t for feminists like Anthony, they wouldn’t have a lot of the rights they take for granted now. There was a statue made by Adelaide Johnson of Anthony and fellow suffragists Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucretia Mott that was donated to Congress in 1921 to commemorate women winning the right to vote. It was meant to be displayed in the Capitol Rotunda, but the day after it was dedicated and installed Congress had it removed and it was stored in a broom closet for 42 years. Then it was moved to a chamber called ‘the Crypt’, a place where they also temporarily stored dead president’s bodies. It’s been in the Crypt ever since. There were FOUR legislative attempts to free our foremothers from the Crypt and let it be reinstalled in the Capitol Rotunda, all shot down. It was finally reinstalled in 1997. After 75 years. REPLY 311. ismeNovember 6, 2010 at 1:06 AM # “I think its in Denmark, where over 70% of men describe themselves as feminists” It’s quite popular for men to describe themselves as feminists. It’s much more convenient than actually being one. “It’s sad that so many American women disavow themselves from feminism when, if it weren’t for feminists like Anthony, they wouldn’t have a lot of the rights they take for granted now” It is indeed. It’s not so strange though…compare the excessive pride in democracy and chest thumping national, with simulateneous appalling voter turn outs and political apathy. REPLY 312. Miss AndristNovember 6, 2010 at 3:54 AM # @GraceMargaret: The face on the Susan B. Anthony dollar is not Susan B. Anthony. The artist’s first depiction was drawn from a photograph of her in her youth, and was rejected for being “too pretty.” Wish I could find the article where I read that. The story of Susan B. Anthony’s arrest, conviction and sentancing is the penultimate example of radfem goals (elimiation of sex-based differentiation) and a slap in the face to opponents of feminism and all their ridiculous “feminists want special privileges” dicksteria: Anthony was arrested, tried, and convicted of voting – a crime that carried a penalty of jailing the offender. The judge, however, was moved to clemency – literally unwilling to send a woman to jail, in spite of the law and the fact that only a woman could commit this crime. Anthony DEMANDED the full measure of punishment, refusing to be treated differently because she was a woman, and the judge (much to his chagrin) was forced to do exactly that: treat Anthony like Everybody Else. Women win. Patriarchy loses. The end. :D -Miss Andrist REPLY 313. FedeNovember 6, 2010 at 1:06 PM # european, I have not heard that number before, but depending on how the question is asked, I can well imagine that 70% of my male compatriots would claim to be feminists. In reality, some 0.00000007% are. REPLY 314. kristinaNovember 6, 2010 at 9:01 PM # 70% probably think women should be able to vote…lol…or maybe 70% disagree with rape..without actually defining what rape means to them… REPLY 315. ChristinaNovember 6, 2010 at 11:59 PM # Claiming to be a feminist and actually being one are two very different things. I have heard a lot of men claiming to be one but prove to be the exact opposite. American male politicians often come across as being pro female, but they only do that to get the female vote. Once they have it they prove that they don’t give a damn about women. Some men who pretend to be pro female only do that so that they can get a woman into bed. I think you will find in most circumstances men only claim to be feminist for their own selfish reasons. REPLY 316. OutsideLookingOverNovember 7, 2010 at 1:42 AM # “Claiming to be a feminist and actually being one are two very different things. I have heard a lot of men claiming to be one but prove to be the exact opposite. … Some men who pretend to be pro female only do that so that they can get a woman into bed. I think you will find in most circumstances men only claim to be feminist for their own selfish reasons.” I agree, and I’m saying this from a (still somewhat) male perspective (certainly not a man’s). ‘Any means to an end,’ some justify this with… if it takes “being” a feminist, okay, fine, no problem. Men have no clue what feminism means. They don’t want to know – it “takes all the fun out of life”. Their wants, needs and drives come first – at a high percentage. Then, to get what they want they tailor their behaviour to appear “sympathetic” to a woman’s needs. I still see this. The French even have a term for it: ‘baratin’. Remove ‘drive’ and ‘need’ and sheesh, some lights have come on for me. Much as women now see me as a bit ludicruous and object of ridicule, it has taken removing drive to finally realise just how wrong my *lack* of reflection really was, how *damaging*, how selfish. Am I saying I was guilty of this behaviour? Oh yes, I was! Was it excusable because of that innate need/drive/whatever-the-fuck disables the mind and takes away another human’s rights? By no means was I right or was my behaviour excusable. Yes, it would be great to go back now and replay my life and – in the light of *THIS* education – have a completely different relationship with those people. Can’t do that, although now my relationship with those friends I have managed to retain is worth its weight in diamonds! … but I *can* share the light I’ve received from 1. reading these words on this blog after 2. chemically removing all drive. I realise it must seem infinitely sad that a human has to remove some part of chemistry, some part of self that some think is the natural male – but which had never been marshalled/controlled – before some human rights truths/concepts finally sink in, along with some sense of responsibility for previous actions and behaviour. I don’t seek exoneration from this group. I want males reading this – those that still *possess* the drive – to see that their sense of entitlement affects human rights of half the human race. We as males must change this. We can change this. REPLY 317. GraceMargaretNovember 8, 2010 at 4:42 PM # @Miss Andrist Did you know that one of the arguments against displaying the statue of Anthony, Cady and Mott was that it was “too ugly”? Too ugly, too pretty…women are always criticized for being one thing, then punished for being the opposite. Another argument was that it was “not historically significant”. Yep, half the American population getting the right to vote, not historically significant enough. They’re also a women’s history museum that has been trying to get clearance to be built, but is being denied repeatedly. It isn’t even going to be paid by tax payer’s money. Meryl Streep gave a great speech on how absurd it is that the men in Congress refuse to give it the green light:http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/09/24/meryl-streep-on-the-battle- for-a-national-womens-history-museum/ REPLY 318. dankzDecember 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM # it seems that most of the feminists on here seem to really put down “nice guys” as well. i’ve encountered alpha female types (whatever that may mean–i.e. egotistical ladies who flaunted looks on purpose) who referred to these “nice guys” as cowards, boys etc, within their circle of middle- class educated elite (i.e. oppressive, having low-payed undocumented workers clean their homes etc) circle of friends. as if being an a-hole is better. & it’s false to say the male hierarchy teaches this to women, since it seems ladies i know take in all the advice their girlfriends tell them(i.e. he can’t be that height, etc), so the cycle is just as perpetuated on both gender sides. it is a fallacy to think the hatred should fall on men when discussing gender dynamics, the discussion does not fit within a context of absolutes. personally, as a person of native descent, always growing up having people feel bad about black slavery, the holocaust,and telling me that what happened to the natives (after they fed corn to the colonists) is just part of an american way? I say hatred for white domination and the ongoing westernatization/globalization is the real issue. White priviledge, such word scares all, because it is a too real in this continent. REPLY o Nine DeuceDecember 19, 2010 at 1:21 PM # If you can see white privilege, why can’t you see male privilege? REPLY 319. dankzDecember 18, 2010 at 11:33 PM # “If feminists and women as a whole were able to stand together we would be able to purge America and Europe of male domination and their disgusting sexist privileges” My point, all you care about is the WHITE DOMINATED WORLD. Traditions vary, but in many places such as in the Americas it was WHITE RELIGION which destroyed our traditions which acknowledge the male/female dualities in life. As VINE DELORIA mentioned, once, everywhere Christianity arrived, it destroyed civilization. The lense of sexuality now most common in most western-influenced society is derived from CHRISTIAN ideology, therefore it accompanied WHITE domination. REPLY 320. sneeky bunnyDecember 19, 2010 at 11:17 PM # Getting popcorn, settling in….. Seriously, why do guys do it? Why do they come here? They get their asses handed to them EVERY time! It is astonishing to me. Astonishing…and entertaining. REPLY 321. ismeDecember 20, 2010 at 8:43 AM # “it seems that most of the feminists on here seem to really put down “nice guys” as well” Actually no. A distinction is drawn between “nice guys” and, well, nice guys. There are masses of men that are quick to declare themselves as nice guys, based on the fact that they haven’t done much that they consider particularly bad. They will endlessly remind any who will listen that they revere an idolised view of womenhood due to such things as, for example, their ability to breed, or moral virtues or somesuch. However, this reverence absolutely won’t apply to any woman they are actually likely to meet, they will tend to all be frigid bitches for not realises the universe owes the self-appointed nice guy any number of fucktoys to worship him. For obvious reasons, these “nice guys” aren’t viewed that highly, and will endlessly complain that women don’t like “nice guys”. REPLY 322. Aileen WuornosDecember 20, 2010 at 4:52 PM # “If you can see white privilege, why can’t you see male privilege?” Word. White male privilege is the one that springs to mind in what they are describing, also. There’s no such thing as a “nice guy”. FACT: If every single man who said he detested male violence against womyn and girls and rape ACTUALLY MEANT IT, the world would be a safer and better place for girls and womyn. REPLY 323. OutsideLookingOverDecember 20, 2010 at 6:17 PM # “Getting popcorn, settling in….. Seriously, why do guys do it? Why do they come here? They get their asses handed to them EVERY time! It is astonishing to me. Astonishing…and entertaining.” Speaking as an XY, I might be able to shed some light. There are those who have defined some Americans alleged ignorance of things happening in other parts of the world as “nationalistic myopia”. May I offer the concept of “male privilege myopia”… the inability to appreciate what is really going on in the world around them with regard to woman and rights and geez, real life. And so they waltz right into this with eyes-wide shut… REPLY 324. ismeDecember 20, 2010 at 7:52 PM # “Seriously, why do guys do it? Why do they come here? They get their asses handed to them EVERY time!” Well, given the way they tend to always, always say the exact same things, it seems none of them read anything that’s been written here before they got here, so they wouldn’t know that. Additionally, being totally immune to any sort of rational discussion means you can’t get your arse handed to you, or at least be able to deny if you do. REPLY 325. HecateDecember 20, 2010 at 7:53 PM # So true OutsideLookingOver! I’d be so happy if I never saw another male in my life… REPLY 326. Miss AndristDecember 21, 2010 at 7:33 AM # @OLO: “(Male) privilege myopia” – excellent term, definately a keeper. I’m going to use that from now on. @9/2: Collective guilt. IMHO. @dankz: Status as oppressed does not preclude status as an oppressor. I wrote a big comment elsewhere on this blog explaining that concept to another woman (white), calling out my own white privilege to demonstrate the fact. If you are male, you are a member of the single largest class of oppressor: men. Case in point: black PEOPLE did NOT get the right to vote with the 15th Amendment in 1870 – only black MEN. Women – ALL races of women, and try to remember that generally speaking, half of everybody everywhere is a woman – remained disenfranchised for another FIFTY YEARS. Men continued to deny women the right to vote until 1920, with the 19th Amendment. There are women still alive who were born disenfranchised. If sexism were the fault of WHITE men (a subset of racism), why are minority men even more viciously misogynistic? Why do men of the civil rights movement tell women that they don’t have time to be women – being black is more important? Why did the venerable Dr. King himself publicly mock women who volunteered for leadership roles? Proof incarnate: the dialog about racism began in earnest in America roughly eighty years ago and is now ingrained into the social fabric and dialog: see, the news. Racism, racial profiling, race-based discrimination, the word “RACISM” is allowed on the news, at all. The word SEXISM is not. The oppression of ALL women by ALL men is dramatically more severe – always has been. Women always suffer EVERY form of oppression more than men EVER will. Example? Jim Crow, lynchings and race-fueled violence in classically historical emphasis on what MEN did to MEN – compare and contrast with the Inquisition. Men get off easy every single time. And here you are, trying to convince us of what? That RACISM is to blame? That white privilege is responsible for men in China to crippling women for sexual gratification, or the seventeen million female fetuses that were aborted? That white privilege is why men in Africa and the Middle East demand that women’s genitals be savagely mutilated to qualify as marriageable while refusing to permit women to be anything but wives? Whatever. Sex-based oppression is the common denominator and because of it, half the population of the world lives in constant fear of the other half, irrespective of race. Name one culture in the WORLD where men don’t oppress women. ANYWHERE. Any race, any religion, any culture. If you can name ONE, I’ll give you five bucks. -Miss Andrist Lover of Men REPLY 327. FedeDecember 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM # Miss A, I am saving the contents of your latest comment on my hd, under the heading “Miss A’s Reply to Some Generic Muddle-Mind” REPLY 328. sneeky bunnyDecember 21, 2010 at 1:30 PM # See? *Totally* knew Miss A was going to kick down with popcorn worthy ass handing. God, I love this blog…. REPLY 329. lizorJanuary 3, 2011 at 11:08 AM # Dear Menz, In case you are confused about the difference between hating men (which we don’t) and hating performed masculinity, (which we do) check out this dude: And have a good hard think about quitting the socially poisonous, alienating, violent “manly” fuckery. REPLY 330. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 3, 2011 at 11:50 PM # Lizor, that was *brilliant*! Bookmarked, video copied, sending this link to every one I know! And *saving* it for fathers I *don’t* know yet… they and their sons will benefit *first*. And women, ultimately. REPLY 331. gracemargaretJanuary 4, 2011 at 6:45 AM # Thank you for the link Lizor, excellent. A lot of the comments about the video are a bummer, though. Someone was trying to bring up economic discrimination against women and got responses like this: “Janise, when a man is broke he moves his behind and gets working… because as a man he feels bad about himself when he doesn’t have enough money. Not all men but basically that’s how we feel. When a man is not paid enough – he fights for his money – he is going to be more aggressive about it. He is not going to shout slogans on the street and expect to be paid just because he is angry about low pay. How many women grow up thinking “I’m gonna start a family and take care of my children and husband?” Women want a tall, dark and handsome (rich) man and a beautiful wedding. And there is nothing wrong with that. Men want a slim, beautiful young woman with a big bust – and there is nothing wrong with that either. We can talk all we want but that will not change our basic needs – even if we all pretend not to have them. Neither men nor women are “bad”. Poverty is a mental attitude and has nothing to do with gender. Those who work hard and use the right strategy make the money. Period.” Another dude offered this: “You split the human race into two camp and conclude that one controls everything when the other doesn’t. How about a real assessment of the situation with context and comparison between the distribution of wealth and assets into more groups than men and women. It is dishonest and dangerous to do otherwise. But I wouldn’t expect less from feminists. It’s us and them according to feminism. This “housework” bull crap is another tool of disinformation. As is putting a $ amount on it and claiming it’s unpaid labor as a grounds for women to get more.” “Our society has decided that “protecting” women is more important than fair treatment under the law. The law was created because of enormous social pressure from feminists and other “pro-equality” groups that lobbied tirelessly for changes, many of them fair. Unfortunately they won and if they bitch enough they often get what they want even if it doesn’t makes sense. It would take a concerted effort to change the system to a more equitable state. An effort that would come most likely from some male movement. But as has been stated often with regard to this topic, men may feel pressure from the “man-box” for various reasons to avoid any such movement until it gets severe.” Alls we gots to do is bitch enough, ladies, and the world is OURS. Actually we don’t even have to do that because WE already WON! Not suprising, the message was lost on a lot of male viewers and comments turned into women/feminist bashing. My props to Jenise for trying… REPLY 332. lizorJanuary 4, 2011 at 12:34 PM # Yeah gracemargaret, the comments are a downer, but largely dominated by some arsewipe named Luke – the predictable ANYTHING to explain misogyny except to call it by name; Women’s poverty is PEOPLE’s poverty and on and on. Thanks to Jenise for taking him on. REPLY 333. HecateJanuary 5, 2011 at 6:32 AM # Amazingly brilliant post, Miss Andrist :) Thank you! I’m glad you brought up the subjects of foot-binding and genital mutilation. They are still considered ‘unfit’ for discussion, as you point out is the case with the word ‘sexism.’ All kinds of creeps jump in whenever you dare mention that word. The lawyers attack you, saying it’s ‘impossible’ to prove, the doctors want medical evidence, and on and on with just about anyone society considers an authority. How much more ‘proof’ do they need? So many men make it clear that they enjoy threatening women’s sovereignty, bodily integrity and safety, their right to live and breathe and support themselves. That’s not evidence? Somehow the harm inflicted on women is made completely invisible. That’s some PR voodoo on the part of men alright. No wonder they thrive so in this corporatocracy… REPLY 334. HecateJanuary 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM # Well ya know isme, it’s probably a lot to do with fear of the vagina dentataaaaa! Mwhahahahaha! I did so love that film ‘Teeth!’ Puts a whole new spin on evolution :) But seriously, I think men are incredibly childish, and what they fear most of all, is not getting their way. I think that’s why they never speak up about rape. They are deeply unsophisticated socially and therefore never know or even care to know, how to ask ‘nicely.’ It’s pretty much the SCUM Manifesto all over again. I don’t think I could put it better than Valerie. Men are self-involved and truly trapped in that twilight zone between man and ape. Scary to think we have to share this planet with them… “Evolve or die,” as Eckhart Tolle says. The only question now is when nature will delete males in the name of natural selection and of course, survival of womyn. REPLY 335. ismeJanuary 5, 2011 at 12:30 PM # “They are still considered ‘unfit’ for discussion, as you point out is the case with the word ‘sexism.’ All kinds of creeps jump in whenever you dare mention that word” It often seems strange to me how people can be willing to tolerate, or at least ignore, people of all sorts of differing viewpoints, but are reduced to hysteria whenever gender inequalities come up. What is with the constant fear and hatred of women? REPLY 336. Mary SunshineJanuary 5, 2011 at 6:03 PM # What is with the constant fear and hatred of women? It’s because all social forms on this planet are based on it. Including all forms of oppression and tribal/ religious / national conflicts. None of them have any footing without it. REPLY 337. lizorJanuary 6, 2011 at 6:22 AM # The fear, hatred and contempt for women and femininity (if we take this to mean gentleness, compassion, selflessness, honesty and generosity – i.e. non-masculine traits) is the core tenet of the capitalist/greed- driven/narcissism-fuelled trajectory towards totalitarianism that we are collectively on now. If you can get your hands on Chris Hedges new book “The Death of the Liberal Class”, pages 154-155 sum this up perfectly, tying hypermasculinity to perpetual war for profit, indifference to suffering, blind obedience, dishonesty and violence. REPLY 338. ismeJanuary 6, 2011 at 6:23 AM # “Well ya know isme, it’s probably a lot to do with fear of the vagina dentataaaaa! Mwhahahahaha! I did so love that film ‘Teeth!’ Puts a whole new spin on evolution :)” Another thing I’ve never understood. I mean, it’s a man’s God given right to stick his precious wiener down a hot plaything’s throat (choking optional), right? “But seriously, I think men are incredibly childish, and what they fear most of all, is not getting their way.” Possibly, but I’d have expected to see more of that in regards to things other than women hating. Of course, there’s alot, but they seem to keep some in reserve for dealing with the uppity womens. It’s also quite surprising to me how men of all colours and creeds will lay aside their differences and unite against their common enemy cause it has girly bits. “It’s because all social forms on this planet are based on it. Including all forms of oppression and tribal/ religious / national conflicts. None of them have any footing without it.” Misogyny is the root oppression, from which all other forms of oppression are derived? I hadn’t thought of that. REPLY 339. MiskaJanuary 6, 2011 at 6:23 AM # @Hecate But seriously, I think men are incredibly childish, and what they fear most of all, is not getting their way. I agree. When a man hears the word “no” from a woman – about anything at all – the first thing he will do is try to negotiate. Because a woman’s “no” is never enough. They can never just accept it. And if she holds firm then he will either take what he wants by force, or have a tantrum. I’ve seen this pattern over and over, in the men in my personal life, coworkers, random internet commenters … Funny that, considering men quite often accept “no” coming from other men, so clearly they’re not INCAPABLE of it. They just seem to have a problem with reverting back to toddler mode when dealing with women. REPLY 340. lizorJanuary 6, 2011 at 7:54 AM # Sorry, that’s “Death of the Liberal Class” REPLY 341. ismeJanuary 6, 2011 at 10:17 AM # “The fear, hatred and contempt for women and femininity (if we take this to mean gentleness, compassion, selflessness, honesty and generosity – i.e. non-masculine traits) is the core tenet of the capitalist/greed- driven/narcissism-fuelled trajectory towards totalitarianism that we are collectively on now. If you can get your hands on Chris Hedges new book “The Death of the Liberal Class”, pages 154-155 sum this up perfectly, tying hypermasculinity to perpetual war for profit, indifference to suffering, blind obedience, dishonesty and violence.” When wasn’t it like that, though? Anyway, I’d always assumed that women were supposed to be caring and compassionate and so on because it proved how weak and unmanly they were, as a rationalisation for hatred based on some other thing. REPLY 342. ChrisJanuary 18, 2011 at 12:24 AM # I find it funny how much people generalize on this site. From what I see all men must be terrible people, but thank God most aren’t like the guy from this site. http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/ And thank God most women aren’t like some of the women on here. It’s women like this that give Feminism a bad name, I’m all for equal rights, but some of what I see on sites like this crosses that line. A lot of men are less willing to support Feminism because they associate women’s rights with taking away men’s rights. It really makes me sad that normal women have to fight twice as hard because of all the fear that some women create. I love men and women (only as friends though), and would hate to see anybody being oppressed. Why don’t you try reaching out a hand of friendship and work with men to solve our problems. Bashing them on here doesn’t do anybody any good. REPLY o Nine DeuceJanuary 18, 2011 at 1:34 AM # You’re right. If I’d just kill myself, women would be free of oppression. I have a LOT of power. REPLY 343. ismeJanuary 18, 2011 at 1:40 AM # “A lot of men are less willing to support Feminism because they associate women’s rights with taking away men’s rights” Which is rather telling, in of itself. REPLY 344. gracemargaretJanuary 18, 2011 at 4:22 AM # Dearest Chris, in honor of Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, I give you this (and read between the lines): “[I]t is necessary to understand that Black Power is a cry of disappointment. The Black Power slogan did not spring full grown from the head of some philosophical Zeus. It was born from the wounds of despair and disappointment. It is a cry of daily hurt and persistent pain.” Martin Luther King, Jr., Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?, 1967. REPLY 345. lizorJanuary 18, 2011 at 7:20 AM # “It really makes me sad that normal women have to fight twice as hard because of all the fear that some women create.” You want to explain that and maybe back it up with some concrete examples? Oh, and could you also define “normal” as opposed to your inferred “abnormal” women please? REPLY 346. HecateJanuary 18, 2011 at 12:15 PM # So then Chris, how about you give us an example of when civil rights were won by ‘holding hands’ with the oppressor? REPLY o let's be peaceful!December 30, 2013 at 12:02 PM # 1 example: Gandhi with his peaceful protests instead of fighting, or saying anything hateful, or etc. won the hearts of his oppressors the British and helped gain the freedom of India. REPLY * ismeDecember 31, 2013 at 7:55 AM # There was the small matter of Britain not being able to hold onto its empire due to being weakened in the largest war the world has ever seen. Also, quite a number of things he said would be regarded as hateful by many. REPLY 347. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 18, 2011 at 12:54 PM # “in honor of Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, I give you this (and read between the lines): ‘[I]t is necessary to understand that Black Power is a cry of disappointment. The Black Power slogan did not spring full grown from the head of some philosophical Zeus. It was born from the wounds of despair and disappointment. It is a cry of daily hurt and persistent pain.'” I think you are giving him far more ability to discern truth than he is able when you as him to “read between the lines”, GraceMargaret. Once again, we have a male who *cannot* and *will* not accept the notion of entitlement, but instead looks at this page subjectively as if it were all directed at him. Which, because of this self-limiting mindset, I guess it sort of is, but not in the way he thinks. Enlightenment becomes retribution only to those who wish to continue to be guilty of continuing in the ways of error. He obviously does: thus he will continue (unwittingly or with malice aforethought) continue in *his* oppressive behaviour because of his unwillingness to see and accept responsibility for what our gender has done and is *doing* to yours. REPLY 348. joyJanuary 18, 2011 at 2:05 PM # Dang, that dude’s dumb. Thank goodness all women aren’t like us! Because then guys like Chris wouldn’t get laid! Thank me later for summarizing his comment. REPLY 349. ChrisJanuary 18, 2011 at 6:47 PM # Margret- That is a very good quote, I do like it a lot. My thoughts are the same, I can understand why radicals (like the Black Panther Party, and the minority of Feminists) exist, but I think once they can work past the bitterness (which is somewhat justified), I think it will be better for everyone. Outside- I don’t understand why the women here think that I want them oppressed. I want them to have just as many rights as I do, and I will do what I am capable of doing to fight for it. I don’t think that criticizing me is going to help anything. Yes, I have my faults, but who doesn’t? Lizor- I define normal women as 99% of women. I think that 1% of Feminists give all women a bad name. Men know about quotes from famous Feminists like Andrea Dworkin and are less likely to support things that have the ‘Feminist’ stigma attached to it. Isme- How did you feel about Muslims after 9/11? It’s natural for anyone to dislike/fear anything that poses a threat to them, real or imaginary. Like I said, women like Dworkin do not ease the minds of men. It’s not because they are fighting for equal rights, it’s because of how much they hate on men. Hearing quotes that say “all men are rapists”, or the general idea of that, do not make me want to jump up and support her. Hecate- Luckily we live in a civilized country where women can vote these ‘oppressors’ out of power. More women vote in America than men. And only about 1% of men actually hate women, the other 99% would not be considered the ‘oppressors’. If you can get those 99% of men to support you, then you can get almost anything accomplished. Joy- You obviously didn’t read, or completely understand, my comment. I said nothing about sex in the whole thing. Please don’t think so highly of yourself Joy, I would rather have women as friends. I like to get laid by men, not women. =P Oh, and gracemargaret, I appreciate the courtesy you showed me. :D REPLY 350. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 19, 2011 at 2:09 AM # “I don’t understand why the women here think that I want them oppressed. I want them to have just as many rights as I do, and I will do what I am capable of doing to fight for it. I don’t think that criticizing me is going to help anything. Yes, I have my faults, but who doesn’t?” Um, this site’s not about you. Not everything that you see is about you. That is *such* an embarrassing thing about being male: we always seem to think it’s about *us*. Now, read this thread again, Chris, but objectively, not subjectively. Remember, the whole world *doesn’t* revolve around you. Entitlement makes you think it does, but it actually doesn’t. This site *IS* about what is happening today to women. You can’t see it, because you’re not a woman. Can’t fault you for that, but then, you can’t fault this site for being outspoken about the oppression that is being perpetrated against women by us men, particularly the entitled ones. Who, because they aren’t even aware they are entitled or what that means, are in the vast majority. REPLY o let's be peaceful!December 30, 2013 at 12:08 PM # Actually your wrong! The whole universe revolves around us! The universe expands from a big bang. As time goes on the space expands outwards. Now if you chart the time of the expansion and pick any single point in the universe. That point in the growing sphere of universe becomes the center. The universe does indeed revolve around me, you, and every one who lives in it! We all have a part in this universe! It may not seem like much but it is! Every single human who ever lived brought this planet earth to what it is today! There will come a time when we become a type 1 or type 2 or type 3 civilization. When that day comes, and we save as many species of animals as possible, it will be because of our collective efforts of every living creature. From the smallest of microbes to the largest of whales! REPLY 351. lizorJanuary 19, 2011 at 8:52 AM # Chris, a percentage is not a definition. Joy is right. REPLY 352. FedeJanuary 19, 2011 at 10:09 AM # @Chris: Read the Global Gender Gap Report, and if after that you can come back here and tell me with a straight (smiley)face that all those inequities are the work of 1% of the male population together with 1% of feminists, then I will be happy to hand you five bucks and tell you you’re out of your tiny little mind. REPLY 353. FedeJanuary 19, 2011 at 10:31 AM # Oh, and Chris? If all those billions of nice men can be deterred from treating all those normal women you talk about as the human beings they are just because the nice men heard the words of Andrea Dworkin? Then those nice men’s respect for women in general can’t be very deep-rooted, can it now. Which was exactly Dworkin’s point. I doubt you’ve ever read anything by her. But if you have and you are still spouting this offensive drivel, that only affirms how far beyond pedagogical reach you are. To blame the oppression of a class of people on the infinitesimal percentage of them who dare to speak up about the oppression!? You should be ashamed of yourself. I know I’m embarrassed on your behalf. REPLY 354. joyJanuary 19, 2011 at 12:20 PM # “Please don’t think so highly of yourself Joy” Whoa-hoa-hoa! Patriarchy alert! Threats camouflaged as jokes — way to be male-privileged. Is this anything like, “You should feel lucky he raped you, little darling, because we all know you’re ugly”? Thanks for playing. Don’t try again. Your shit is unoriginal drivel and it’s boring. REPLY 355. Miss AndristJanuary 19, 2011 at 11:09 PM # @Chris: The fear “some women” inspire? You must be referring to me. I am the infamous Miss Andrist, after all. Just look at my pseudonym! The nom de plume I post under because it is universally understood that men make it dangerous for women to use anything remotely resembling our real names on the internet says it all. I am a terrifying figure, men cower before my hundred-ten pound frame. I tower at just over 5’8. My heart-shaped face, framed with intimidating blonde curls, the fearsome visage of my enormous doe-eyes. My hands are weapons of a killer – my grip so powerful I can sometimes open small jars all by myself! Without whacking the edge of the lid with a butter knife! Men do not fear me or any other woman, here or anywhere else. How fucking ridiculous. Men fear giving up their innumerable privileges, as acknowledging even in part any of the truths we present here would force them to do. I know this will confuse you, but human dignity is not actually a zero- sum entity. There is an infinite amount of human dignity in the universe; women can be human beings too without reducing men to women’s status. Aww, poor menz? DIAF. Whatever. -Miss Andrist REPLY 356. Miss AndristJanuary 19, 2011 at 11:17 PM # @Chris: Did you really try to tell any of us what to think? Why, thank you, Your Highness, for handing down the law of right and good from on high. King Chris is here, and he is setting out some rules. First things first: Joy (and probably all of us) are forbidden from developing any form of self- esteem, self-respect, and especially from demonstrating that we have either of these. It is offensive, frightening, and off-putting to TEH MENZ!!! And really, isn’t that what our lives should focus on? What men want from us? I’m so sorry. I apologize. What I should have said was PLEASE die in a fire. Seriously, for the ten billionth fucking time I have posted and reposted this quote: [quote]”Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.” –Andrea Dworkin [/quote] and [quote] “The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. There comes a time when silence becomes betrayal.” –Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. [/quote] Thank you, -Miss Andrist Lover of Men REPLY 357. SameerJanuary 19, 2011 at 11:39 PM # A comedian’s way of explaining this… REPLY 358. FedeJanuary 20, 2011 at 10:23 AM # Thank you, Sameer, that was a good one. Miss Andrist, every time I’ve read one of your contributions I’ve left the computer in a better mood than before, and feeling less alone in the world. And Chris. Chris, Chris, Chris. As you would have known if you had bothered to check, Dworkin did not say that all men are rapists. In fact, she shared her all too short life with a man, John Stoltenberg. If you had a shred of decency you would at least have done a smidgen of research on a feminist icon like Andrea Dworkin before dismissing her work in this forum of all places. But as the spoiled, entitlement-crazed person you are, you unthinkingly and with total lack of self-criticism relied on your unearned superior social status in lieu of making tenable assertions. You did not feel you had to back up your vague and counterfactual ideas about Dworkin’s work. After all, you were only addressing women, and who can be bothered to put in the effort to debate properly when your maleness will trump any woman’s intelligence and reason any day, anyway? Well, that approach may work everywhere else in the world, Chris, but not here. I am very happy to have seen proof that not all men are like you. As George Carlin says in the recording that Sameer kindly linked to, “Not all men. Just enough. Just enough to fuck things up.” REPLY 359. SameerJanuary 21, 2011 at 1:19 AM # I have realized that men (like me) can never truly “get” what it is to be a woman in a society that is specifically designed to cater to men and masculinity. We can try to understand it, but it will be nothing like what women experience on a daily basis. I wonder how many men are just plain oblivious to the fact that we, in fact, do have a shitload of privileges assigned to us from birth and how many men know it yet choose to ignore it. And I think if men truly want to understand feminist work, they need to be completely objective about it and not look at it with a narrow subjective “ohmygod, why is so much bad stuff written about me?” attitude. Thats why, when I’m reading some of Dworkin’s work, I have to keep reminding myself that this isn’t about me and keep the broader picture in mind. I guess its easier for us men to relate to a story only if we get to be either the protagonist or the antagonist of it. Otherwise, we are just too perplexed and incapable to analyze it in objective terms. Years of socialization to think of ourselves as the centre of everything, I guess. REPLY 360. gracemargaretJanuary 21, 2011 at 2:40 AM # Chris, Feminism doesn’t have a stigma because of Andrea Dworkin, feminism has a stigma because *being female* is a stigma. And women who have the audacity to stand up for their basic human rights are considered especially grotesque and monstrous. Malcom X called white people devils, and when I read that as a kid I was never offended and never decided not to support the human rights of African-Americans because of it. God, I was a white chick in my early teens and I totally GOT it. He was speaking out of frustration and anger because all he saw around him was violence and discrimination and hatred against African-Americans. Andrea Dworkin did not hate men, she hated cruelty and violence. Men who have a stake in upholding male supremacy will always find any excuse to put down feminism, usually by blaming the personality or tone of a particular feminist. To quote Andrea: “Feminism is hated because women are hated. Anti-feminism is a direct expression of misogyny; it is the political defense of women hating.” REPLY 361. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 21, 2011 at 4:59 PM # “I have realized that men (like me) can never truly “get” what it is to be a woman in a society that is specifically designed to cater to men and masculinity. We can try to understand it, but it will be nothing like what women experience on a daily basis.” Marginalisation (in my case) has helped a bit, but I still find myself fighting my own battle with this every day. It’s almost like one needs a certain destructuring. In my case, it’s totally voluntary and emphatic. The ideas presented in Susan Maushart’s “Wifework” *helps*, but it isn’t the total picture. So whilst I do try to, I can see by the look in my partner’s eyes and in the eyes of my co-workers (nurses, almost all female) that I sometimes *still* don’t “get it”. But at least it’s not for lack of trying. Please understand that whilst I agree with Miss Andrist that “There is an infinite amount of human dignity in the universe; women can be human beings too without reducing men to women’s status….” — in order to understand the depth of that status, I have felt a need to sort-of “walk in their shoes” a bit. I’ll admit that perhaps it’s the wrong approach to “getting it”… REPLY 362. gracemargaretJanuary 21, 2011 at 5:38 PM # It’s unreal, I was trying to look up a speech Andrea Dworkin gave called ” Biological Superiority: The Worlds’ Most Dangerous and Deadly Idea” where she takes some lesbian separtists to task for the idea that women are inherently superior to men, and practically everywhere on the internet it’s completely ripped out of context and presented as her supporting the very idea she’s repudiating. This quote mining of Dworkin is one of the reasons she is despised even by some feminists,…what you read she said is rarely anything close to what she said, just mined for ‘proof’ of what a horrible and man-hating ogre she was. I finally found the complete, un-quote-mined speech here: “One of the slurs constantly used against me by women writing in behalf of pornography under the flag of feminism in misogynist media is that I endorse a primitive biological determinism. Woman Hating (1974) clearly repudiates any biological determinism; so does Our Blood (1976), especially “The Root Cause.” So does this piece, published twice, in 1978 in Heresies and in 1979 in Broadsheet. Heresies was widely read in the Women’s Movement in 1978. The event described in this piece, which occurred in 1977, was fairly notorious, and so my position on biological determinism–I am against it–is generally known in the Women’s Movement. One problem is that this essay, like others in this book, has no cultural presence: no one has to know about it or take it into account to appear less than ignorant; no one will be held accountable for ignoring it. Usually critics and political adversaries have to reckon with the published work of male writers whom they wish to malign. No such rules protect girls. One pro-pornography “feminist” published an article in which she said I was anti-abortion, this in the face of decades of work for abortion rights and membership in many pro-choice groups. No one even checked her allegation; the periodical would not publish a retraction. One’s published work counts as nothing, and so do years of one’s political life.” — Andrea Dworkin http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIID.html REPLY 363. FedeJanuary 22, 2011 at 8:11 AM # Bloody excellent work, gracemargaret, thank you! This is the kind of thing we need. The truth-speaking straight from the feminist’s mouth. REPLY 364. gracemargaretJanuary 22, 2011 at 8:24 PM # Thanks Fede, I have such a deep admiration for Andrea Dworkin that when she gets bashed the way she does it really is bothers me, especially when it’s by feminists. When I was in my late teens I was (of course) very curious about sex (I was stil a virgin and sex was a completely taboo subject growing up) so one day I ordered a porn film on the down low. This was a cable network pay per view thing, something very accessible to the general public. Nothing advertised as ‘weird’ or violent, totally mainstream stuff. (trigger warning): I don’t remember all the details but the last scene had a woman fighting with her boyfriend and he responded by slapping her then pinning her down and raping her. She was screaming and crying. It was very violent and absolutely horrifying. Then, to add insult to injury, after it was all over she says how he was great and that she ‘loved it’. I was completely shaken by the experience, it made me physically sick and it lasted for days. I mean I literally felt like throwing up for days after. I didn’t think anything of porn before seeing this movie. But after that I understood, even at that age, that the way they had the actress say she really liked being raped was disgusting woman-hating propaganda. I turned to feminism soon after, reading everything I could get my hands on. Andrea had to analyze this stuff all the time, I can’t even imagine the things she saw. Just this small peek into porn was incredibly traumatizing for me, I was afraid of men for a long time afterwards. I don’t know how Andrea did it without becoming an alcoholic or drug user or at least having a lifetime supply of exra-strength Pepto Bismal on hand. I developed chronic panic attacks not long after, it seemed the more I developed my feminist consciousness the worse it got. Real and incredibly debilitating panic attacks. “People talk about pornography as a form of fantasy. They actually talk about prostitution as if it were an exercise in fantasy. And it is part of the pornographers’ effort to hide what they really do in real life–to encourage the word fantasy in place of actual behavior that really happens in the real world. I mean, a fantasy is something that happens in your head. It doesn’t go past your head. Once you have somebody acting out whatever that scenario might be in your head, it is an act in the world, it is real. It is real behavior with real consequences to real people. And so it has been a very brilliant part of the pornographers’ propaganda campaign to protect pornography by characterizing the industry as an industry of fantasy. In fact when you have that Asian woman hanging from a tree, you have a real Asian woman and she is really hanging from a real tree. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with fantasy. It has to do with a human being actually having happen to them what we see has happened to them. And I think it is just the most extraordinary insult to the human conscience to continue to characterize these real acts to real people as if they only exist in the head of the male consumer. And what that means is: his head, his psychology, is more important than her life.” –from the video Against Pornography: The Feminism of Andrea Dworkin produced by the BBC, 1992. REPLY 365. FedeJanuary 23, 2011 at 9:11 AM # Your reaction to that filthy taped rape only shows that you are sane, gracemargaret. Which is a terrifying thing to be in an insane world. No wonder you have had panic attacks. Although I do think that in your case they are a sign of a working mind, I obviously wish for you that you get to a point where the disgust, fear and desperation you experience when faced with the world’s hatred of women will no longer get the better of you. REPLY 366. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 23, 2011 at 3:48 PM # “Your reaction to that filthy taped rape only shows that you are sane, gracemargaret. Which is a terrifying thing to be in an insane world.” …and infinitely demoralising to think that the bulk of my gender find this sort of horror acceptable and can’t even see how dehumanising it is. Watching movies or even television shows depicting *any* sort of violence against women turns my stomach: I can’t watch it without feeling sick, only because what is being depicted really happens, and it is horror. I always thought I was weird because my mother-in-law can watch this without (apparent) qualms. REPLY 367. FedeJanuary 24, 2011 at 1:26 PM # “I always thought I was weird because my mother-in-law can watch this without (apparent) qualms.” In a sense, you are weird, OutsideLO, and so am I. For some reason, the incessant and ubiquitous woman-hating indoctrination has not had the desired effect on us, and we have failed to become completely numb to the horrors of women’s subjugation. We are freaks. I don’t rightfully know; is it nature, nurture, or blind luck that shielded us from the full effects of patriarchal brainwashing? All I know is I wouldn’t have it any other way. Yes, it’s an ugly spectacle that greets any person who takes off the blinders, and yet there’s something to be said for trusting one’s own eyesight. REPLY 368. gracemargaretJanuary 26, 2011 at 5:56 AM # “I obviously wish for you that you get to a point where the disgust, fear and desperation you experience when faced with the world’s hatred of women will no longer get the better of you.” It’s done its damage I’m afraid. At least I could avoid watching any more porn but what really did me in, got the better of me, finally crushed my soul was first when I was a child and I had a little prayer book that I loved by St. John Chrysostom that I had by my bed and read every night and it made me feel safe and comforted and loved and protected from the ugly world out there where people can do horrible things to each other. I found out that this beloved Saint whom I adored thought of me like this: “For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship… a fault in nature…The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food …” (I was still a believer so I genuinely BELIEVED this about myself, they were the Saints and knew The Truth so I didn’t question it.) Then because I loved philosphy and wanted to major in it I excitedly started taking classes only to find out this is what I’m thought of in the eyes of lovers of Wisdom (and I suspected my male classmates didn’t disagree): ‘It is because women’s reasoning powers are weaker that they show more sympathy for the unfortunate than men, and consequently take a kindlier interest in them. On the other hand, women are inferior to men in matters of justice, honesty, and conscientiousness….Neither for music, nor for poetry, nor for fine art have they any real or true sense and susceptibility, and it is mere mockery on their part, in their desire to please, if they affect any such thing.” -Schopenhauer ‘We should look upon the female state as being, as it were, a deformity though one that occurs in the ordinary course of nature…’- Aristotle ‘When a woman inclines to learning, there is usually something wrong with her sex apparatus.’ -Nietzsche ‘Women have no existence and no essence, they are not, they are nothing, Mankind occurs as male or female, as something or nothing…the meaning of woman is to be meaningless. She represents negation, the opposite pole from the Godhead, the other possibility of humanity….A woman cannot grasp that one must act from principle; as she has no continuity she does not experience the necessity for logical support of her mental processes…she may be regarded as ‘logically insane’. -Weininger Then I thought maybe psychology as a major but: ‘All women are fundamentally savage, and the suffragist movement is simply an outbreak of emotional insanity.’-Max Baff, Professor of Psychology ‘Throughout history people have knocked their heads against the riddle of the nature of femininity…Nor will you have escaped worrying over this problem – those of you who are men; to those of you who are women this will not apply – you yourselves are the problem.’ -Freud (also the penis envy/natural masochism thing) ‘Antifeminine Girls…included all the girls in the sample who said they did not want to marry. These girls showed psychological deviance and signs of severe pathology.’ – Douvain and Adelson Then realized Christianity wasn’t for me turned to the kinder genlter Buddha and got: ‘What is this, thy daughter’s body, but a thing full of water and excrement? I do not even want to touch it with my foot.’ Sorry for the long post, it seems to go on forever. And it does!http://www.gaiacharis.com/site/index.php/dangerous-children/88- chapter-6misogyny But I’m not supposed to hate men…that would be bad. REPLY 369. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 26, 2011 at 1:51 PM # And these are meant to be the *brighter* minds, these monsters. Perhaps I’m a freak of nature, but when I read all this, GraceMargaret, I am proud to be that freak. How vile, these minds, and their despicable conclusions. And how completely dehumanising for half the human race… it serves to explain a lot about the state of womankind in the world, the state of the family and its questionable viability, and the state of relationships in general. Not much hope for humankind, is there? It is self-destructing. REPLY 370. FedeJanuary 26, 2011 at 3:42 PM # “But I’m not supposed to hate men…that would be bad.” Yeah. Ridiculous, isn’t it? It would be laughable if it were not so infuriating. Those influential men and their petty ravings. How pathetic that they should be so secure in their superior social status and still have inferiority complexes so monstrous that they must hate us with such bilious fervour. Sad, hateful little huffing dongs. I am smarter and nobler than all those filthgobs put together even on their best of days, and yet they count in the world and I do not. But then again, over the years I have learnt that I tend to count in the eyes of the few people that earn myrespect, which is a great comfort to me. And you count in mine, gracemargaret. REPLY 371. HecateJanuary 26, 2011 at 9:36 PM # I know gracemargaret, it’s a very sorry state of affairs when so-called ‘pillars of society’ feel justified in spewing pure vitriol about half of the human race so casually. It’s truly no wonder the average male sees women as objects of contempt. Like Fede says, it’s not easy taking the bull by the horns and looking it straight in the eyes. Even better, piercing those horrid peepers :) So many cannot or will not. I know too many willfully ignorant idiots who suck up to whatever happens to be in power, whether it’s male (since forever) or corporatism (a bit more recent and definitely both instigated and perpetuated by males). Yes it is indeed scary to challenge the current paradigm. But I really do believe that if one does not, one risks one’s very soul. Or at the very least, that soul will have to return to this hell dimension many times over to learn its lessons. A radfem, or anyone radical for that matter, will suffer temporarily once enlightened. Perhaps that person will suffer tremendously. But it’s better than being some creepy zombie for the rest of your life and never thinking for yourself. Better to experience some growing pains, than to be one of the sheeple. Finally, here’s a great book I’ve just about finished: http://www.alphabetvsgoddess.com/ He’s a tad too polite in my opinion as to just how awful things are at the moment. But at no time in the book does he ever give men and the culture they’ve created from antiquity any kind of excuse for the end result. It’s a very elegant work about the subtleties of patriarchal oppression and is very much a worthwhile read. REPLY 372. ismeJanuary 27, 2011 at 12:38 AM # “And these are meant to be the *brighter* minds, these monsters.” Well, brighter than their male contemporaries, who would be no less monstrous on the whole. It’s always tempting to think that mental deficiency goes hand in hand with moral deficiency, but unfortunately it’s not the case. “How pathetic that they should be so secure in their superior social status and still have inferiority complexes so monstrous that they must hate us with such bilious fervour.” That’s something I’ve never managed to understand. For all the total dominance of the world by men for millenia, there has always been this hysterical fear of women. It just seems sot totally bizarre to me. REPLY 373. gracemargaretJanuary 29, 2011 at 2:21 AM # Fede thank you that means a lot, I don’t care if men hate me for having some life in me and a brain that works. it’s a actually compliment when they do. Thanks to you all for your voices of sanity, it help me stay semi-coherent and from pulling out all my hair everytime I come across this shit. And that is just the tip of the iceberg as far as Great Men and their contempt for women. Someone recommended a book to me by an Irish writer Jack Holland, his last book before he died titled Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice. In the forward he talks about how all his male collegues just assumed it would be a PRO-misogyny book. But I loved this on the back jacket: “this is no outmoded feminist polemic: it’s a refreshingly straightforward investigation into an ancient, pervasive and enduring injustice.” It’s written by a dude, not some angry feminist, so it’s refreshingly straightforward! That made me laugh out loud in the bookstore…even a book against misogyny has to have a dig at feminism, the only politcal movement that has actually tried to do anything about it. Interestingly, although he originally was set to have it published by Viking and got $100,000 as an advance, a week after he died Viking decided it was ‘unpublishable’ and even demanded half the advance back. But his wife and daughter relentlessly fought to get it out, it was finally published by Carroll and Graf two years later. One of the sad things I always hear from a lot of women is “women’s rights are human rights!” Like it has to be explained. That has to actually be spelled out. Take out ‘rights’ and you get the picture. And many women think this is a bold, brave feminist statement. And even worse, comments like this from Jack Holland’s daughter Jenny: “That’s the major point [of the book] –it’s not about women’s rights, but human rights.” Thank you Jenny, cause you know women’s rights aren’t about human…wtf, why bother. It’s so pathetic. REPLY 374. gracemargaretJanuary 29, 2011 at 2:31 AM # “A radfem, or anyone radical for that matter, will suffer temporarily once enlightened. Perhaps that person will suffer tremendously. But it’s better than being some creepy zombie for the rest of your life and never thinking for yourself. Better to experience some growing pains, than to be one of the sheeple.” That’s a great point Hecate. Sometimes I do wish I could unseee and unknow the things I do now, but seeing it as just hopefully temporary growing pains is a great way to put it. And OutsideLookingOver, if being a decent human being makes me a freak, I’m proud to be a one too. :) REPLY 375. HecateJanuary 29, 2011 at 2:33 PM # “One of the sad things I always hear from a lot of women is “women’s rights are human rights!” Like it has to be explained. That has to actually be spelled out.” This is so true gracemargaret! Because really, we all know that in actuality, women are not the soft, strong impossibly clever and beautiful creatures they appear to be, but in their true form are deadly, giant reptilian sea serpent creatures bent on destroying the world! Never mind the fact that we are spiritually giant, magnificent creatures who actually created the world, like Tiamat, primordial goddess of the ocean. Another fact is that most women often find themselves having to be superhuman to overcome the injustices they face on a daily basis. If men cannot or will not see the humanity in us, even doing what they can to degrade it out of us, then they are the sub-human things that should be murdered and forever forgotten. Then again, as Valerie Solanas says, they are already ‘dead inside’ so it would be great to be in a position to just not acknowledge them period. REPLY 376. OutsideLookingOverJanuary 31, 2011 at 6:18 AM # How can any human forget that without woman there is no human. And that all humankind began as female. As science progresses, it is becoming quite clear that the superfluous gender is male, not female. So, science has proven those great minds to be nothing more than misogynistic idiots. When the facts (as science is discovering) are diametrically opposed to those “brilliant conclusions” these minds had, doesn’t the rest of what they’ve said seem to grey a bit in terms of how enlightening it might be? Just my two cents… REPLY 377. A bystandardFebruary 8, 2011 at 11:09 PM # You have so many good points, Nine Deuce, and I would just like you to know that not every man is like that. As you can guess from my first sentence, I am a guy, but I do not dislike you. I too, hate men who act like in the ways you mentioned and I feel that many a man fits your description. However, neither me nor my real friends fit that description, maybe since we do have some girls with whom we like to hang out. Maybe since I am a man, I do see the few people who would be incensed at that egotistical airline patron. Most men would hate him too (although there would be a good number who hate him just because they are Dallas fans) because they recognize he is a jerk (but they might unknowingly be a jerk). My point is–although in order to prove it I would have to type twice as long as this post–not all men are the contemptuous people you encounter each day. You might not believe me– if I were you, I would doubt this poster and carry your hard-to-vent hatred that burdens you everyday– but I mean what I say and I say what I mean. Whether you believe me or not, I respect you and wish you the best. No, this is not pity, but how I think about everyone, that I could think the same and do the same in their situation. Wishing you the best, A random straight guy who wandered onto your page and cares you. REPLY 378. A bystanderFebruary 8, 2011 at 11:11 PM # …Yea, sorry for my misspelling… I am still far from perfect, just like everyone else…. REPLY 379. JaneFebruary 9, 2011 at 2:02 PM # Outsidelookingover, that’s because the misogynist minds failed to read between the print, as a Radical Feminist Deconstructionare’ of the Christianeese religion [and hated thus for], let me say, the original sin was that Eve, like so many of us under patriarchy today, was tricked by the serpent into wanting to be ‘like the gods’, NOT goddesses, but like the ‘gods’, therefore Erasing [the screw ladder cycle began] the God Female [God in Bible/man’s word, never once said, I am not a woman, numerous times God said I am not a MAN, but not once, did God ever say, I am not a Woman], and GOD [She S+he, S as dominant] warned Eve not to, it was the LORD God [male] who of course, gave sentence…Meaning of allegory, when Woman attempts to appease the males/gods, or believes that the ‘males’ or male gods’ are somehow Superior [or when she does thus for aiding Adam who truly wanted to be ‘like de gods’] the cycle of misogyny begins, the erasure of the Sacred Feminine, destruction of earth, mother, womb, power of She… and we’ve been trying to survive and come back to our She place ever since…while being kicked down by the so called ‘sons of gods’ and ‘gods’ and ‘males’ and so forth, Life becomes Knowledge for Power/= death, Male power that is, end of my theory on the spiritual parable allegory here as to Bystander, you know, it’s sweet, it really is, and I’m sure you mean what you say. Rage is frightening isn’t it? The rage of women [that is deserved I might add], but you know, for the Men out there who do care, may I suggest something? Take that concern, and rather than attempt to Convince us feminists that you care, take it and CONFRONT the misogynist system of your Brothers. You see a lot of Men tell us, they care, why many tell us they care and then five minutes later are attempting to get into our pants, and then some if they don’t get in, why that care turns into the ‘oh you bitch’, etc etc etc., you see we hear a lot from men who care, who say they care, but what we Don’t see a whole hell of a lot of, is MEN actually on the lines, with that Care and Doing something about Male Privilege and Male Entitlement attitudes towards women and particularly as the ‘sex class’, we see Men who care of course marching and screaming to end abortion, but not many marching and screaming to do something to end Rape, to end trafficking, most of all, to end porn [and religious reasons don’t count here, exchanging porn for the private domain of porn enforced sex slavery of wife made into pedophile child role, ain’t gonna cut it, it’s simply religious ‘porn via word verbatim, gawd style], see brother, while it’s great and all that you brothers come to feminist sites and say, hey we ain’t like brother so and so, we different, we like you, it would be even greater, if you told your brothers, to stop butchering women, to stop beating women, to stop raping women, to stop getting off to porn made from rapes of women, and a lot of other male violence/injustices to women. Then you see, then we can actually SEE that brother cares, until then, it’s hard to discern, do they truly care, or is this just another attempt at the ‘oh I’m not like them, now can I screw you’ slogan, [it’s an allegory, but you get my drift, right? Because you and others like you Care] In solidarity, Jane REPLY 380. joyFebruary 9, 2011 at 2:05 PM # I tried to get a laugh out of that load of paternalistic, patronizing bullshit, but all I could manage was a heavy, heavy sigh. REPLY 381. joyFebruary 9, 2011 at 5:34 PM # “that load of paternalistic, patronizing bullshit” from A Bystander/d, not from Jane! Her comment and mine posted at the same time. REPLY 382. The bystander who came backFebruary 10, 2011 at 12:43 AM # Hey, it took me awhile to come up with something to say. You are right, Jane, and I feel more pathetic than this meager medium can allow me to show. One must truly be strong in more than words, but in actions. So far I can only get the first half done. To be totally honest, I live in a totally misogynist school–Why? It’s since it is an all guy school with spoiled rich kids who are hormonally unbalanced–and slanderous terms are common. Thanks to your post, which I plan to save along with joy’s, I will work much harder than just cursing the idiots in my mind. Yes, as you can see, I am all words, that truth comes out of my mouth with a bitter taste. I hope that your post can push me to actually back up my words with actions. (Which according to the well-known saying, which speaks louder?) …I am sorry to disappoint with the expected, but I convinced myself that the admittance of my stupidity is better than not answering. I hope you believe me when I say that I would kill myself in shame if I agreed with the slogan. Joy, I am sorry that my speaking style sounds like a bunch of bullshit (although I hate using that word, maybe I just am a prude) but I guess my vain attempt at sincerity sounds like that. The real problem is that I speak, and type, formally in almost everything so it sounds better. I really have confidence problems, and by trying to use complex structure and all that clutter, I sound like a formal person who talks down to people. …I can’t get you to believe me, but I am sorry. I also have that problem when I talk to people. I try to talk respectfully and act kindly and that results me in being called a suck- up. People doubt me, and with good reason too, but the next time someone tries to make any comment that ticks you off Jane, I am going to chew them out. …Or so I think now, hopefully I can get the guts to do that Sincerely, The same fool who didn’t fully see himself in the mirror …and hopes to later see himself as who he says he is REPLY 383. The bystander who came backFebruary 10, 2011 at 12:57 AM # I just realized how much fancy nonsense my post looks like. Yea, I can see where you are coming from, Joy… I might have been better off if I deleted the first line. I also see how my attempts to sound formal make me sound like I am a person who likes showing off and talking down to people. (I hate those people and now I sound like them….My actions are now ticking the heck out of me) I am just trying to sound better and express my thoughts… …yea, now I am just throwing my thoughts down and not linking them, it doesn’t really look too pretty. This response that you are reading offends me since it lacks proper coherence and that kind of stuff… Sorry, in case you can’t tell, I am in 10th grade and I am way too used to typing essays and that has changed how I write and type. That is really creating barriers, sorry. …Apparently, my errors on this comment areas are showing the whole world how flawed I am. (I can’t even stop mentioning that) I guess I should have read my response and made sure that it was more than well organized, and instead having the right tone (like a conversation, not an 20 page essay). REPLY 384. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 10, 2011 at 3:54 AM # Men (as in, those creatures with the penis) are who are destroying the earth for the sake of financial gain. They are the ones who start wars. Violence, rape, power: almost exclusively a male thing. I’m not saying women never-ever go there, never seek power, are never violent, but really… seriously. Rape as an expression of power? As an repression/destruction of another human being? It’s a male thing. Jane, your explanation (origin of sin) makes perfect sense. To take your second point further: those males – oblivious to their own entitlement – who read Nine-Deuce’s original comment and feel compelled to protest: “oh, but not *me* – I’m not like that!” are merely confirming their entitlement. It’s a case of “methinks [subject] protests too much”… it would be nice if there were some way to alert the would-be respondent to please have a read of the thread before opening their yap proclaiming *their* innocence. But seriously, how many males do you really think will read this and say: “yep, that’s me! Thanks for pointing it out. Gonna change my life, now, thanks to you.” Hate to say it, but even in those who are now aware of this state-of- mind/behaviour – namely me – the fight to eradicate this defect is ongoing and arduous. There are so many subtle ways you can proclaim your entitlement without realising it, and the HUGE problem is that my life- partner (*really* hate that term “wife!”) and work colleagues are so accustomed to those little behavioural things I do that they won’t even call me on it… they just dismiss it: “oh well, a man, what do you want?” Which serves to fuel an almost obsessive resolve to never be labelled a “man” again… but then, you have to deserve not being called a man. The word “entitlement” was a foreign word where I work until today: I heard a new anaesthetist (female) use it and was I ever excited! Awareness is finally happening. REPLY 385. ismeFebruary 10, 2011 at 5:51 AM # “I tried to get a laugh out of that load of paternalistic, patronizing bullshit, but all I could manage was a heavy, heavy sigh.” Yeah, I heard that one before too. They need some new material. A Bystandard, it’s not uncommon for men to visit the blog and declare their support for feminism, expecting to be fawned over as a male saviour. Whether or not this is what you are hoping for, it’s what you are giving the appearance of doing. It would be nice for this not to be the case for once, but you’ll understand if we tend to be a little doubtful. REPLY 386. Probably the last of the of the bystanderFebruary 10, 2011 at 9:25 PM # Hello again, Yea, I do need to learn how to talk plainly. All I wanted was to plead with the few readers of my comments. All I wanted to say was to look for the few men who try hard not to be worthy of contempt. I view myself with contempt and I would be surprised if anyone could hate me more than I hate myself. I am not claiming to be better than the people who I hate, I just try to and fail. I am not even close to be worthy of respect and I would be as doubtful as anyone else if I was in your position. All my point was, some people don’t fit the description you put everyone in. I know need to back my words with actions and I will do my best in the future. I know posters like me are common. I just hope I am not thinking I am entitled or acting likewise (my first and third posts is my writing style for my homework assignments, which sounds horribly condescending when talking with people) and I am sorry if I do so. I don’t want anyone’s respect since I would be happier if I had the respect of none. No one can hate me more than I hate myself, since I am my worst enemy. REPLY 387. Probably the last of the of the bystanderFebruary 10, 2011 at 9:27 PM # Yea, I changed which email I used and that led to my picture changing…sorry about that. REPLY 388. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 11, 2011 at 2:47 AM # As opposed to self-flagellation, which is a bit self-absorbed, have a read of this thread. Read it carefully. If nothing else, it will give you a purpose: to 1) realise your own entitlement status and mindset and 2) do something about it. Be prepared for a long battle. When you see it in action: address it. Deal with it. But first, find out exactly what it is. Carefully read these pages. We males have done/been unjust to the other half of the human race far too long. Change is most effective on a grass-roots, personal level. You are well-placed to see it first hand. And you will gain self-respect, because you know in your heart you are doing the right thing. Nothing is more important than self-respect. How do you expect to respect anyone else if you don’t respect yourself? I do need to add: read these pages respectfully. Self-deprication is not respect. Acknowledging truth and then doing what needs doing is. You have a long road ahead. All males do. REPLY 389. gracemargaretFebruary 11, 2011 at 2:51 AM # Hi Probably the last of the of the bystander, You are questioning what you see around you and your own assumptions and that’s not a bad thing to do. I know when you’re around other guys standing up to them and taking action can be difficult because men very often will punish other men for being ‘gender traitors’ and will try to keep them in line through various methods of intimidation. I’m not saying it’s worse for guys, you can always conform and reap the rewards of being born male if you decide it’s not worth your while to question or rebel against the status quo. Women and girls don’t have the same option unfortunately. There is a little cynicism about the motives of male posters here but don’t take it personally. You seem like a basically decent young fellow who’s trying to figure things out. REPLY 390. JaneFebruary 11, 2011 at 11:38 AM # OutsideLookingOver, thank you, yea I’m still doing a lot of deconstructing/looking at the allegories of both Bible, some of the Torah/Talmud [just recently Talmud], historical Rome and slavery of women IN, taking that all the way back to Ancient Sumeria/Egypt/Babylon, comparing those ‘allegorical interpretations via through power len’s of rulers then’ to the similar of Mayan and others, It’s a lot of weeding through circular thinking [insanity lol] and observing nature/and nature’s relationship within, interdependence of, etc., which What got me started on this, was one, having to come to grips with the RA in my childhood/life that really screwed me up, both occult/and religion mixed with politics which That lead me in adult years into all forms of the Abrahamic religion, plus revolutionary politics when I rebelled against those, I saw far too many common behaviors, which lead me to question more, even in radical feminism because the main abuser including sexually in my life Was my mother, and so the whole it’s only patriarchy didn’t wash with me, I saw evil on levels that most deny even exist, So…that got me to do some serious investigating for my own restoring sanity to self, went back to the Bible, actually READ the OT in full [numerous times] and also NT again, Plus the criticisms of the lack of historical evidence, etc. etc. etc….I never got back into church, tried, no way could I embrace the right wing capitalist patriarchy crap…so I went to Christian feminism that is right now [more on the egalitarian side] revolting against the surge of the ultra patriarchal dominion cults. However That left me, even more frustrated, I went to the atheist sites, but their worship of sciencegoddouchebag while blatantly trivializing or brushing under the rug the Brutal misogyny experiments Done on thousands of women for Science, including raping of children for the sex reports that are still being used in Europe to ‘justify’ raping children/pedophilia, Threw me back into the days of my revolutionary Marxism/misogyny and well, like, OK do I bend over and take rape from the religious god or the science god or marxist god, and IF so, then what the fuck is the difference? I still come out fucked up, SO…I also had to include in that equation being bent over and raped by a woman, because I know that experience…molestation, along with other horrid abuses [starvation, torture, etc] SO, I guess you could say, then I went to Native Indian and other indigenous beliefs because I had spent so much time alone sitting in nature [outdoors] and observing while investigating and going back and forth with the cognitive dissonance, one day asking God to show me, the next day telling Him to go to hell [when reading the crap in Bible] and then, oddly, I started to see numerous things in scriptures, that sounded a lot like numerous beliefs of the indigenous but they are worded differently [e.g. the bear and Elijah, the Bear clan/Indian], so, I then started looking into All the references to nature/nature allegories/water, etc., and saw HUGE similarities with a sacred nature feminine, which coincides with the ancient goddess beliefs [that I believe were deliberately distorted by men-kings of that age, for land-power and slaves, Lerner’s Creation of Patriarchy goes a bit into this] and then also in the NT [I believe the Jesus is actually a group of those who from various beliefs, Slaves in that epoch because of the numerous parables that Directly speak of the rituals of slavery, e.g., when He speaks of cutting off hand better than hell, in slavery then, Romans masters were Notorious about cutting of hands of slaves for the tiniest of offenses, hell was the allegory for Crucifixion, which was The terror used on slaves to Terrorize subjects of state, anyhow these Jewish/and other slaves of that region at that time, resisted using martyrdom as it cut into the slave economy and prepared so they thought for revolt which came later, failed but came…and I have found some other theorists who have claimed similar, though those theories are rare], can’t say you know, I wasn’t alive then, but it did get me to look at the very strong possibility of religious beliefs and especially the monotheism and misogyny of, depending on the Region [by observation of animal and climate behaviors which is why middle east perceptions in B.C. differ from the Mayan or Native Indian, it’s the nature and climate/animals and How they perceived spiritual forces influencing], all with common threads however with vast differences, Particularly where Gender is concerned. Anyway yea it’s really interesting though frustrating, because it opens up a lot of my own fears, beliefs, doubts, especially in how to reconcile all the evils in the world against women, and the earth, and can’t reconcile them, obviously [one would have to be indifferent or insane I think if they could], but in doing this, really ripping scriptures apart and in imagining what it would have Been like, for the minds then, in those epochs and How they would have come about with these stories OR maybe even spiritual revelations, can’t say, things jump out at me, and the whole ‘to be like the gods’ though prior to that, it mentions male/female image, as well as Two very different creation stories [that coincide with ancient Sumerian tablets] So, yea…if anything, it helps to understand Where the beliefs of ancient misogyny may have stemmed from, and why. And why they are So powerful and hard to overthrow Because they are hard wired in our dna, meaning, I believe they become a part Of us inside, in our heads/thinking, even if we are NOT really involved in religion, why they are so hard wired in society as a whole, globally and domestically. Learned mores that are so ingrained I wonder, if they become a type of kinetic energy that electrically [how our brains/and hormones/and chemicals work] as well as how we perceive the natural world/interactions of [and added our disconnect to nature with the influx of dependency on iron, steel and technology], actually produces a type of dna inherited belief structure? I’m no geneticist but I do wonder, so, yea I stumble upon some other ways of viewing, guess what I am saying here. Whether it will do any good in deconstructing centuries of misogynist thought steeped in religious/patriarchal programming I can’t say, I wish, I’ll be doing good if I can come out of it, with some inner peace and soul-mind somewhat intact, LOL. I could never embrace the whole goddess thing because of the occult abuse [Venus as the altar in the abuse when I was child] so…That is however, where I did a lot of research on the connections of religion and occult with prostitution and porn, the industry of and how Both, are equally responsible. On that, I have proof…and both sadly, are globally increasing, if not in the in your face worship of/connecting to sex slavery shrines, in the rituals of, no doubt, they still exist and exist with increasing violence. Therefore I believe both are in dire need of deconstruction/serious critique if we ever are going to emancipate womankind from sexual slavery/exploitation… which oddly, this is where scientist/atheist beliefs Do help, I just wish they would critique that man created religion, political systems [both are from same roots] as well as science theory/and male superiority beliefs in all of them, and why removing One will not remove patriarchy and male violence/women as sex class without confronting the Others. This is, the Most frustrating of all, To Bystander, I do often come across men who really do want to work for change, therefore, I am submitting to you, a few websites/organizations For men, who are confronting male violence and working towards change, because I know men who are survivors of RA [ritual abuse/religious and occult] I have met some men who are very outspoken against violence particular sexual, therefore I will include this site for you because they work with networks, including against porn, with other men, they ARE a minority, some of it’s new territory for men because they are not well received in patriarchal society to begin with, there is a lot of denial [just as there is denial of woman to woman abuse, etc., mother’s to daughters, occult, so forth, though Australia is making huge strides in confronting this as is Canada, US is lagging WAY behind, still in dark ages] Anyhow http://www.malesurvivor.org/ [it’s a good starter, especially being from male lens] http://www.nomas.org/node/165 National Organization for Men Against Sexism if you are religious, there are several Egalitarian sites and CBE is probably the best one [based out of Australia], while I don’t concur with some of their platform, I have to say, because of the Environment in which they are deconstructing and challenging patriarchal beliefs, these are some very open minded and brave men, some are very feminist minded, as well as anti-hierarchical, and then there is an egalitarian board, though I do not have their site listed, never mind, yea I do http://equalitycentral.com/blog/ I am listing this as a resource, one if you are looking to working towards Dialogue with other men, this would be good, but Also, for those of you here who Know women, who are ‘in’ religion, so to speak, and who are having a hard time in either leaving or deconstructing or just healing or leaving an abusive relationship and they Are of the religious mindset, this is a good site to send them too, it’s NOT radical feminism, but it’s a good start, and has helped Numerous women find the courage to leave abusive relationships within a Christian religious setting, with Support, as many do not have that support, it’s also good for those men who are more liberal minded but feel alone in environments that are very conducive to conservative/patriarchal thinking, such as the School you mentioned you work in, and for the other, CBE, http://blog.cbeinternational.org/ they are not as progressive labor wise as I would like, however, they Do address these areas, again, both are of the religious however, for men, and women who are struggling with belief systems and those internalizations along with cognitive dissonance/via male violence, these were two good sites I found, for men, simply because these men, know just about every argument that the pro- patriarchs use and while I wouldn’t say they are 100% liberated in their Thinking towards women/male privilege, they Do see it, they Are confronting it and discussing with other men, and it IS a underground culture revolution going on, in numerous places Though small, in one of the main areas it is Needed the most, and for others here, these are just good resources to have bookmarked, never know when you can refer someone To them. Sometimes it takes steps to awakening consciousness especially for those who have been raised/live and have believed in Deeply ingrained misogyny/patriarchy and mixed with religion more so, and maybe they aren’t At that place of taking the radical steps, etc., hope it’s OK for me to post these here, but I look it this way, Every little bit of forward progress helps, especially in that with the levels of violence towards women, sexual slavery increasing, the challenges to male violence need to be taken Everywhere, to cut the root of the source. In solidarity, Jane REPLY 391. JaneFebruary 11, 2011 at 12:27 PM # Outsidelookingover, lol, I did want to add, after all this craziness of deconstruction [took me about four years], I finally wound up with a very eclectic nature centered belief as far as spiritually, leading to a sacred feminine but probably more along the lines of indigenous beliefs [maybe this has to do with my work in labor and human rights?] and I still read the Bible, but as allegory/metaphor, not literally, and much of it I just dump as man’s bullshit, because well, much of it has been proven to Be just that, powers to be, etc., corruption. But in going back and deconstructing/reconstructing, I did learn a lot that did help me to Heal, which, as a radical feminist [of which I am and why I couldn’t go back to embracing numerous beliefs I once had when younger], I feel is So needed, for women who have been spiritually abused [religious or occult] and with that through violence, mental and physical and sexual. I just felt that there are areas that while deconstructing patriarchy/misogyny is no doubt necessary [a revolution against] at the same time, there is such a need for Healing of souls/minds, and for many who like in porn/prostitution [and I know a bit about this from living on streets at times in my life], even feminism can trigger, for those who have had women as well as men being the abusers, that I don’t think IS covered much, it Needs to be, and not under the rug of ‘well it’s just patriarchy’, that works fine if one isn’t living with the nightmares of the PTSD of not just memories of men But also women, abusers, rape, torture, etc., and it’s one area that I do believe the MRA’s use to their advantage, Especially in religion. Meaning, they hold those realities over women, to maintain control, and you really See this when you go over into the other areas where patriarchy is being challenged, like in ultra fundamentalism/fundamentalism and the Holds so many beliefs have over women, is really heartbreaking and frustrating, I do work in solidarity with many of these women, though at times I also have to pull back because it can get so downright frustrating, to see women hang onto some of the very principles of belief that are at the root of the violence against them, which is why, yea I do continue to deconstruct the Bible, it’s So needed, not just to attack but to like with the story of Eve, pin point those ‘unsaid’ or between the lines, because for many women, it does open the door to dialogue but more so, Thinking critically, against the very strongholds used in spiritual abuse that keep women in horrid abusive relationships and internalization’s. On issues however of class/race, I still get a tad fed up and sometimes have to walk away, I haven’t gotten to that point where I can be patient with some of the thinking there of many women I do work with, because of religious/or conservative beliefs of such, like the pro-sex or pro-porn feminists, there are a lot of similarities there with the apologetic s and internalization’s there, I sad to say, don’t and haven’t found answers on how to resolve this, maybe I just need patience, but that in of itself is just, well what a luxury that is that really we can’t afford, because with each passing day more women are butchered, raped, killed, enslaved, etc., so, yea, don’t have that patience bit really and probably don’t Want that. ON the other hand [and WHY I am clogging up space here Mentioning all this to you all here] when I was going through all this deconstruction process, and working/corresponding with women within more of a religious/or conservative feminism, I found more about the rise of or surge rather, of a very Dangerous dominionist religious-occult/and Extreme misogynist as well as child abusing [and I do mean Dangerous] culture that is increasing here, With numerous women leaders, that I believe is just as if not more so, dangerous as the pro-porn lobby. Because the rapes/pedophiles of young women In religion, is at this time, on PANDEMIC levels, not just here but in Africa, including butchering children, accusing them of witch-craft and trafficking of girls into temple shrines in sex slavery/torture, in nations that are 80% Christian, three that I know of, in addition to this, then there are the other fundamentalist’s trafficking women into Italy and other parts of Europe, now Here’s what IS scary, the fundamentalists on both sides, are teaming up, and the Porn type of bdsm torture/anti-witch rape crap, is being taught in subtle ways in numerous of these fundie religious cults, and creeping into mainstream Which you know, falls into the Political, it will effect us all, our daughters, and their strength is in the fact that there is a separation between the two types of feminists, meaning, on one side you have the Radical feminists confronting porn, etc., on this other side, a silent revolution going on against the rise of dominionist ultra patriarchal with more applied sexual Violence/control over women, that is branching out more into the mainstream, some of it very under the table. I would not have known just how deep this crap is going IF I hadn’t of gone back and did some of my own searching for answers, I had NO IDEA that things had deteriorated on this level, in the religious culture, I knew it was bad of course because of the right wing/MRA bent, yes I knew that, but I had NO idea of the porn-bdsm/pulpit pimp shit that is literally being programmed through spiritual abuse into thousands of women and the scary thing is, it is growing AND it is doing so, in many ways, very secretly. Not many are aware of this culture spreading, and it’s Dark Ages, I’m talking Medieval, it’s not just Ex Quiverfull, the dangerous aspect is how it’s cleverly being peddled into the mainstream, and I don’t know how many women [feminists] are truly aware of just how sinister it is, I know some are, but frankly I haven’t seen too much written about it, On the good side of things, there ARE women, in the religious/conservative lot that ARE seeing it, they are questioning [more and more are even questioning the legitimacy of Bible itself] and there is a revolution going on [and they are being assaulted by religious MRA’s like no other], on the bad side, their movement is small…not near enough the size it Needs to be, to confront this increase/surge in a type of fascist misogynist dominion culture that is very much like the porn culture, that will spill over into mainstream society as a whole, this is what concerns me, and some may think this Couldn’t happen here in the west, I beg to differ, it IS happening in parts of Africa, as we speak, and there is little coverage of it. This is where I believe religious misogyny on the level of inquisition and witch hunts are merging with the violence of pornography/trafficking into One organism, does that make sense what I am saying here? Add to that, hostility towards the West among other fundamentalist groups, we are looking at the potential of a real Holocaust-mass rape/violence of women In the west, I don’t need to sound like an alarmist, I know I risk sounding bat shit crazy, but I really do believe, this is a very real danger, and what IS so frustrating about this is that inform those within the religious/conservative who ARE challenging the abuses of this danger, many are just of the belief that it can’t happen here…huge denial, some Do see it, but so many do not. Therefore, I do believe, the sexual violence and male violence/porn confrontations Need to include the rise of such that is being literally programmed into women, behind pulpits [I call them pulpit pimps] through spiritual abuse, occult type of mental brainwashing and group control, the fastest growing culture of misogyny increasing right now in even mainstream churches is bdsm-porn acting out through what they call ‘wife discipline’ [no kidding] and the courtesan wife, being Taught by a few women, it’s like Something out of a fricking horror flick, second is the increase of more men working to make polygamy and child marriage acceptable, using scriptures to Do so. Many of the ‘liberal pro- sex/pro-porn thinking are actually Encouraging these religious cults’, Sure, because if religion can pull it off as an acceptable Moral culture, make it politically acceptable, then well, I don’t think I need to explain to you the dangers there, there are, I know of one, children’s home, run by one of these Christian cults, that there are reports of the few girls who Do manage to escape, of porn ritual types of abuse being administered, and the system, legally, in that state is protecting these thugs. These accounts ARE growing, and they are being assisted, in my strong opinion, by the very liberal apologetic’s of porn/misogynist politics, not just the right but of the Left. As well as being assisted or encouraged rather, by OTHER fundamentalist belief groups that would Benefit from legal change, acceptance or normalization of, polygamy, child marriage, and domestic violence tolerated under some sick twisted wife discipline garbage. And it’s not that it Could happen, it IS happening, why I brought it up. This will be, my strong opinion, the war we are going to be faced fighting, more and more… In solidarity, Jane REPLY 392. HecateFebruary 11, 2011 at 8:04 PM # Sorry, this may be sort of depressing to listen to on a Friday going into the weekend, but it’s just so inspiring: [audio src="http://www.andreadworkin.com/audio/TraffickingConference1989_P1_M.mp 3" /] It is also something those individual men who feel victimized by blogs like this should listen to, because Andrea outlines very clearly the systemic nature of the whole problem. REPLY 393. Paul PleyFebruary 12, 2011 at 1:09 AM # I would just like to say that every so often I start thinking that feminists and MRAs could combine forces and work together to combat the scourge of sexism. And then I read stuff like this and my hopes are dashed on the rocks of feminism. So I would like to tell you a few things. It is so incredibly petty, ill informed and just plain bigoted to judge an entire gender on one man’s actions(and face it, they weren’t even that bad. Talking loudly? C’mon). It is easy to prove that men are more oppressed/discriminated against in western society than women. And the number of people who realize this are growing far faster than feminists. It would be wise to try to build bridges instead of burning them with this burgeoning movement. It will only grow in strength. Not only would many MRAs welcome the help but we may even find some common ground to work together towards and create a lasting partnership. But this will not happen with your hateful “I hate men” screeds. I do not expect this comment to be posted so this is a message just to you. But if you have the ovaries to post it then I REPLY 394. Paul PleyFebruary 12, 2011 at 1:10 AM # Whoops, cat on the keyboard. Then I would be pleasantly surprised that a feminist would not be resorting to censorship like so many of her comrades in arms. REPLY o Nine DeuceFebruary 12, 2011 at 2:56 AM # You were wrong. I’ll approve this comment because it’s almost as funny asthis. REPLY 395. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 12, 2011 at 3:30 AM # Dear Jane: “And why they are So powerful and hard to overthrow Because they are hard wired in our dna, meaning, I believe they become a part Of us inside, in our heads/thinking, even if we are NOT really involved in religion, why they are so hard wired in society as a whole, globally and domestically. Learned mores that are so ingrained I wonder, if they become a type of kinetic energy that electrically [how our brains/and hormones/and chemicals work] as well as how we perceive the natural world/interactions of [and added our disconnect to nature with the influx of dependency on iron, steel and technology], actually produces a type of dna inherited belief structure?” I feel that placing too much emphasis on dna or social conditioning as a historical reason/rationale for male entitlement is a bit of an abdication of responsibility… a bit like saying astrology dictates my behaviour/decisions and I have no say/should follow what the stars say. We are all masters of our own destiny. The information presented on this site can serve to educate men to the evils of male entitlement, …or… to ignoramuses like Paul, serve as a podium to pronounce that “we should all just get along”… except, Paul, your brothers are still raping their wives/daughters/sisters/girlfriends and that fuckwit attitude does little to change *that* fact. Yes, we should all just get along. Go out there, Paul, and make it *happen*! Don’t come on here with freakin’ platitudes and cats that know how to operate the mouse enough to click on the ‘post comment’ button before you’re ready. Sheesh, we men do look like idiots, sometimes. REPLY 396. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 12, 2011 at 3:57 AM # Hi Jane: “I don’t know how many women [feminists] are truly aware of just how sinister it is, I know some are, but frankly I haven’t seen too much written about it, On the good side of things, there ARE women, in the religious/conservative lot that ARE seeing it…” Disquietingly few, really. I’m seen as a bit of a freak/alarmist because of my views on pornography, its status as an industry and the impact it is having and will be having on women and children now and in the future. I have heard the same thing as you from people “on the inside”, and that information is horrifying. Nothing innocent or “just between consenting adults” about it. What I find so dismaying about this is this, Jane: it took voluntary chemical alteration on my part for me to even have receptor sites to assimilate this information. *That* I find depressing. What sort of hope do women have in a world where men mistreating women is considered a ‘norm’? And to those holier-than-thou jerks that come on here and read like the first post of this thread and say “hey!, chill… I’m not like that!!” just remember, your *kind* (gender) _is_ like that, and your responsibility is not to tell Nine-Deuce her blog does nothing but incite anger: your responsibility is to say: “thanks for reminding me there are a lot of assholes out there, and at times, I’m one of them!”… and go DO something positive about it. It takes a lot more courage, believe me. REPLY 397. JaneFebruary 12, 2011 at 1:35 PM # OutsideLookingOver, wow, you know I read something yesterday that hit on Exactly what you spoke of here: “”I feel that placing too much emphasis on dna or social conditioning as a historical reason/rationale for male entitlement is a bit of an abdication of responsibility… a bit like saying astrology dictates my behaviour/decisions and I have no say/should follow what the stars say. We are all masters of our own destiny.”” OK so now I’m back to the mental drawing board here, LOL, yea, huh, yea that does sort of fall into that whole biological determinism/evolution psychology bit there doesn’t it? Which I don’t concur with… but I was referring to, the mental inheritance of learned constructs, that get into brain waves/patterns that are passed down, that yes we Still have choice, concur there, but I wonder, hmmmm, if we grow up in environment where we have no reference point contrary to what we’ve been mentally hardwired to believe in both by inheritance and by environment, then how does that play a role? And if that wiring isn’t offset by other reference circuits [such as images or actual visualizations or experiences With non- violence/egalitarian models, etc] then Does that mental hardwiring DNA become even more of a stronghold and gets passed down via chromosomes, etc.? I don’t know a whole lot about genetics and environmental conditioning [and if it Even plays a part, just something I’ve been theorizing on], because of how electric magnetic waves do effect our brains/learning, etc., [just wondering], so I guess I’m wondering about external learning/hard wiring and if THOSE if not countered by other alternatives are hardwired into DNA and thinking processes ON a biological scale? And if so, then how would we go about changing those wires, know what I mean? Reason I wondered about this btw, in dealing with the mental PTSD and well nightmares and detachment I have from the RA and so forth, though I should add I didn’t get the extent of DID because of changes IN our environment/interference when I was a child [my brother was also effected and still has serious problems, this is family thing btw, my uncle committed suicide this year, also a victim of child abuse/RA as was my mother, secret societies/occult-long story–but he dealt [uncle] with numerous psychosis as a result of the abuse/Ritual abuse] My brother and I lucked out, in that we left my father [so one side of the RA was cut short but sadly not the other side, both resulting from women/who were damaged from the years of occultism/secret society/gov-with religion], [many who may not be aware of these occultic criminal groups wouldn’t know what I am talking about here, yes It sounds like X Files and well it IS a sort of X Files, stranger than fiction put it that way but I wish I could say, it’s NOT true, my life would be So much better if none of it WERE true] but anyway, because I had to learn how to cope with the mental invasions/altars, etc., which I thank you Spiritual Feminine in Nature, got a lot of help from I believe animal guides/nature, [Native Indians which in all areas where I lived or men I was involved with, somewhere there was Always a Native Indian tribe connection, so yes They saved me, they really did], but anyway, when I began to heal Mentally, through herbs and learning about plants, working with dirt, many things came to me and one of the things with DID and detachment is the soul fragments, I had been hard wired to react and act in certain ways and well Because I had the fortunate experiences of Seeing/Relating to more positives, I believe that had a lot to do with how I could break a lot of the wiring/mental patterns, however, for many who from childhood who through abuse, sexual violation/soul splitting and living with violence/blood letting and who come from Ancestry and a Societal climate of such, IF they do not have another reference point, to break that wiring, both in DNA and in mental conditioning through trauma, then yes I believe those hard wiring are passed down through DNA, otherwise, occult-gov military would not USE trauma, especially in war, etc., because they Know it effects whole generations, why they Use mass rape, for instance. It’s not just the women they are targeting, it’s the whole of the racial or ethnicity of that society/children born, Anyhow, this is why I do not trust psychology/science under Male military political rule for elevating women Because of the social engineering that has been prevalent in warping Psyche for entire generations/populaces, such as experiments of trauma used in Romania and on orphans, etc., Reason I began to wonder about this, as I was working on herbal and learning natural ancient rituals and healing for the “Soul”, the mind fragments, nightmares, etc., for myself [and let me just state to Clarify my PTSD and OCD are not anywhere as bad as many other’s deal with…I really am one of the more fortunate ones, so many women and survivors are NOT so fortunate] but when I began to apply, learn, as well as fight the mental demons, I often thought of those trafficked victims who if that is All they know, the dungeons of hell, and if they do exist or escape and have children, if those children do not have positive reference points [still in climates of hostility, etc], then yes, I do wonder about the wiring through DNA, mental that is, and being that WE are programmed in ways through electric magnetic waves, such as through mediums [television, magazines/images, repeated word phrases/misogyny really applies here because words tend to have a holding power esp if repeated and added with images, internet, noise/sound waves, etc] then Yes, I would have to wonder, if there isn’t a type of hard wiring going on that can get to a point where it’s So hard wired in, that it’s near impossible to break? I again, this is Just theorizing One Looking Over, I’m no expert, not even an area of study of mine, and I concur, wouldn’t want to ‘use’ it as any justification or argument for the whole ‘well it’s just nature or my dna or the devil’ type of arguments, Hear you there and agree 100%, but IF any of my theory/or hypothesis is true, then there Has to be a way, to throw a wrench into the wiring and break it’s strongholds and power, that’s what I am looking for. There’s some good studies on this, though they are branched out in various areas, such as recent one I looked into was the effects of noise/sound pollution on the brain waves, etc., but time doesn’t allow me to do thorough research, but I have come to some sort of conclusion that through wiring of thinking through mediums, if Those are not changed, then I do believe learned hard wired misogyny will continue to expand in it’s level of violence with each generation, this works the same with violence too. But again, these are hypothesis, not my area of study, but yes you do mention a very important [and one that really Does need to be remembered because there ARE those out there that ARE using that whole ‘it’s biological mental wiring’ that causes men to do a and b and therefore it’s only natural justifications and Those need to be changed period], and Unfortunately it seems that any attempts to ‘modify’ learned negative behaviors through state or psychology have Always been, under the domination of the Very men and male systems, that have used the very similar Rituals to Abuse women and break their minds…. it’s a warfare on many fronts isn’t it? Thank you for bringing this to attention, as I will ponder on this, even write it down, this is why Women need each other, :) Peace, Jane REPLY 398. JaneFebruary 12, 2011 at 2:42 PM # Outside Looking Over, WARNING–FOR SURVIVORS OF ANY RA–HUGE TRIGGER WARNINGS ok I didn’t read your other reply, but I kind of already replied to some of it, you know I wish we could sit at a table and really discuss this, because You are So right and NO, NO, NO you are NOT being an alarmist…I have spent years fighting mental insanity Because of engineering, that you know I didn’t even Fully become aware of the Extent of the damage, from the RA in my childhood until I was so triggered [when working in far left politics I might add, LOL though it’s not really funny, that’s a sarcastic laugh], that I just snapped, literally snapped, shut down, didn’t take care of my children [barely] and well it’s like my mental processes just died, I’m still fighting a black cloud depression like no other, it IS living hell, for long time I backed off from feminism or any activism Because for me you see, through off and on periods of involvement with bdsm type of relationships I was in [because I was trained to Be that submissive, through the RA as child–it’s really a long story and it’s generational, I’ll elaborate on this here in bit because it Does relate to a LOT of what you are saying, especially about the Porn], but when I was awakening, I guess you could call it from the DID type of altar controls, I would be so enraged and that’s when I would go through periods of activism, mostly writing, and this has a lot to do with Why I went all over the place…I would be fine Until I was triggered, blow up, shut the door to my soul, back off, crawl Back into the closet, figuratively speaking, and for years I did this..I Still struggle with this, especially when triggered, though I don’t have the inner violence I used to have, I’ve healed [or maybe just gotten tired with age] from a lot of that, AND I’ve had the periods of that rage turning inward, and sure enough, numerous health problems as a result of… Porn was a huge trigger for me Because it reminded me, though I didn’t relate to the Why so much until I began to stop hiding from memories, of a lot of the RA [ritual abuse] because the mind breaking patterns of ritual abuse are Identical, in fact they are from the Very same sources, this goes back to Ancients, ritual sexual torture, etc., that the powers to be and occults have used, not just to enslave, mind control masses [and That is a HUGE part of it, those who dismiss Porn as entertainment are Already mind altar controlled], and This I believe [and ritual occults of history relay this as well] that it’s the blood letting that the power is derived from, THIS is why porn becomes More violent, grotesque and targets more Innocence, children, virgins…it’s NOT Just about sex, or sexual violence, it IS a form of Ritualized Occult abuse being done right on the page and it DOES HAVE A DARK SPIRITUAL POWER…make NO mistake about it, this is WHY it’s connected to a huge industry that is Tied in with government, gambling [huge], military and religion/occult either way and Entertainment through ‘mediums’, media… see many think it’s some isolated industrial operating in a vacuum, it is not, this is Why it’s protected by the Legal infrastructures [and why the Same rituals are practiced in elitist societies, fraternities through planned rape, etc], and going to add here, though I know many women are into the whole goddess thing, I warn, Be careful, because it IS connected, always has been, not saying this to condemn, I Understand because I lived with that other side of religious patriarchy/spiritual, [and they are All from the same roots, I don’t believe they are all of negative forces however], but for many promoting these ‘new age’ goddess or revival of, Be careful, use discernment [stay rooted in nature, it helps] because the Rituals used are power feeders into the same forces of porn, same goes for a lot of the sciences as well, Anything that has to do with ‘controls’ or ‘resistance to controls’ one has to be cautious, not paranoid, but cautious, this is where Wisdom comes in, and the thing about Porn you see, the ritualization process of is that it’s a step process, like a pyramid, except it’s more like a downward Spiral [think spiral staircase and why they are often black, it’s the Black Hole, bottomless pit, rungs of mental hell, corridor doors, etc], used with Music, it’s very powerful, in it’s ability to grasp, hold and stay…why in sexual torture they use electricity often [waves, how they effect brain/corridor doors in mind], and Don’t think, the masters do NOT know what they are doing, they’ve learned these secrets since the beginning of ages, this is another reason I brought up DNA, because there is something to do with Women, and the SEED or EGG they carry, that’s what they are Also after [the TSA and airport scanners/DNA are not as innocent as many may think, it’s related, I’d be more concerned with them Looking for patterns, rather than fragmentation’s of DNA–yea know it sounds conspiracy but it’s BEEN done before, eugenics, genetics breeding, Don’t think it can’t happen again–the naked shots, the molestations via police state, are NOT coincidence–how people react, they DO observe], people tend to dismiss mind controls as some wacked out conspiracy, but Let me assure you, it is not, and PORN is a HUGE part of this, especially violent porn and porn that is based on inquisition type of violence/sexual torture AND it’s NO coincidence that movies, more and more coming out, about witches, demonization of women, torture training through movies such as SAW, that are guidebooks, in my Strong opinion, to many who have Already been mind controlled through trauma to Act on these signals… we CAN BE trained to take active role in our OWN oppression/torture, without even Knowing it, this is why I warn against numerous of the goddess, new age and dominionist cults. Porn works the same, because it’s FROM THE SAME, the entire Sex industry is from the same source, it’s a RELIGION in it’s OWN right and yes it Does have power, power that on the ability to do damage is unreal, to the imagination of most human minds… because of what it Does to the mind itself. Especially minds of women and children, but I will add here, the minds of men, like military desensitization to train men to torture on Command, porn works the VERY same way, and it IS DELIBERATE. It is NOT just private industries, I don’t care What anyone tells you, it is deliberate, it is planned, it is hostile to the society as a whole, and to individuals. It is mass rape on a psychological scale that is being used to trigger the viewer to Act out through mental altars to do the very violence that is viewed, the more blood the more violence, and This is why I brought in the discussion about DNA hardwiring, Just because the results in full force are NOT seen in THIS generation, does not mean it’s harmless…the effects may not come into full fruition until next generation or after, but the poison is Already at work, and it’s complex in that it’s not just through porn, it’s through the various mediums they are Using, to accomplish their tasks, they do NOT have the manpower to cleanse population [for labor, resource hoarding, mineral hoarding, land, control of races, etc., ], why the ritual experts used other means, from the days of old to Rome, to psychologically keep masses at bay [prevent revolt], now they’ve accomplished their means by utilizing methods that the Citizen themselves, will carry out, the plans of destruction, and it will look just something of a segment of criminals, but criminals, who for years, the powers to be, have been cleverly working [and reinforcing survivors through the same methods to not awaken to truth as they could expose them], to trigger them into action, this is not to say all crime or violence is from triggers, there are individuals yes who act out, but don’t dismiss the mass control, using clever engineering, learned through experimentation and especially of prostitutes, homeless, poor, marginalized, to carry out, an extensive plan, when it suits the PTB, this is WHY the legal ‘powerhouse’ that Jack built, is all up in the panties of free speech to protect the industry, those same powerhouses of fraternal orders, societies and confessionals… not only that, for those who are Confronting the industry, it is Imperative, that you protect your minds, it really is because again, they operate through ‘corridor doors’, ok, that means, things slip in through doors that may NOT show up until years later and that is why many will have PTSD flashbacks, trauma dreams, images they can’t shut out of their minds, etc., women are vulnerable, words of knowledge can Only do so much to protect one’s mind from the onslaught of the rituals, and the more one is in view of other mediums the more powerful those corridor doors work, this is what Causes for many, the shut down, burn out, depression and even suicide, not just for survivors of RA trauma but for those who spend numerous hours fighting such violence, the more one stays away from electrical mediums in this line of activism the better, work in the garden, take nature walks, learn to sit in silence…to walk through mental images and self heal, Because for those who Can do this, they will learn how to have that self control over externals, beware of the whole ‘drift into a type of spiritual nothingness’, that actually does More to give the altars through images power to seep in the doors and stay there– porn images, violence, IS a form of ritual training, it’s violence, horrid to the victims who are In porn, and they ARE victims, no matter ‘how much sugar the master gives them–they use sugar, both metaphorically, physically, not just talking cocaine, in RA of children they often use sugar, same with torture of prisoners, sugar-carbs], because sugar effects the mind too. [things I’ve learned through dealing with the effects of RA in my life–I was sugar addict, didn’t know why until putting it together, also have/had severe food issues, still haven’t healed from that one, I was both starved and force fed as child, it’s apart of] in closing, as to Why I know about the generational effects, you see the RA I grew up with and WHY it took 40 years to piece it together, is that directly my brother and I were not coven abused…how I’ll term it, at least NOT that I can recall [could have been prior to four or five, don’t know, some memories of para normal things but not enough to say, yea such and such, and won’t just assume as it still wouldn’t prove any ‘group’ activity] but I know enough from memory to recall the occult type of rituals, though by whom exactly I cannot say, prior to six years old that is, after six I KNOW who the perps were, anyway, as I began to piece together, I also found about family/involvement of others in my mother’s generation/fathers and then Their childhood [abuse for them twenty times worse] and then my Nana’s [she married a bookie who I found after my uncle’s death did deals with Senators, all I will say on that matter but I think you can kind of sort some of what I’m saying here], all this in D.C. area btw, but my Nana, was really messed up, she was I found also victimized, and this goes on and on [on both sides of parents], both secret societies, religion, government mix, one side crime one side gov, you get the picture, military also, and of course as a young teen I simply chalked it off as nightmare or terrors, rationalized you know…my mother acted out Huge ritual abuse patterns to me that SHE acquired as child, and I do not believe it was just coincidental, because of the Types of mind control pattern abuses, i.e. showing me Nazi films when I was VERY young with horrid graphics, growing up being told I was devil’s child, evil, etc., whore, especially Whore, I knew more about being a whore before ever being with a man…found out later that This is one of the techniques used to trigger altars, that are placed in early childhood through trauma abuse/RA, sure enough IT works, because I knew things that no child SHOULD KNOW, sexually especially, had understanding of things and was very politically minded AS a child, that was NOT normal, things like this…a whole lot more and well, if you hear Monarch, it’s not bull…it really isn’t and This goes back to ancient Egypt, clue– the documentary of orphan children in Russia, many of them sexually abused, in the corner of the documentary on screen, is a Monarch butterfly, this is NOT coincidence, they keep tabs on the orphans, I lived in children’s home at 14 [Catholic] when my insane mother one day just said, off you go…I would learn later that This is part of the programming, she was raised in the same environment, both her and my uncle, so yea they Target orphanages, street children, etc., and they are ALL connected to a much larger framework, I avoided mental hospitals, some of my friends did not however, that’s another level of the labyrinth, note: not All who work in orphanages/children’s homes or systems ARE of this operation, same with psychology, etc., [no I’m not paranoid] and This is why, when those who Have been RA, many do not believe them, you see they aren’t stupid, they don’t operate in Front of all, this is planned, clever, intelligentsia, back room, elitist controlled, and it’s a pyramid, so one has to be careful not to get all wrapped up in the Ultra conspiracies and looking for demons behind ever trash can sort of thing–OK, just to mention, on the Other hand, it IS going on, it IS more common than many think and it IS far more powerful and global than what many could imagine, and like ‘cells’ it works connected as well as loosely, to avoid detection, and PORN and PROSTITUTION and TRAFFICKING/SHRINES/TEMPLES and religion/occults [esp religion] are some of the most Powerful houses they operate in [along with gambling, sports, big money] and why the poor, marginalized, women and children, are so vulnerable to victimization…Especially the more marginalized and invisible they ARE. The middle row/middle class [parrots] they use, are the Buffer Zone, that works like insulation, this is why Yes they will use the Poster Blond [there is reason/strategy for this as well as the Dark Erotic] for advocating the harmless argument of porn/prostitution/sex industry, that IS run on a numbers system [divination/gambling/numerology/pur from ancient times], I deal with a lot of attacks when exposing, mental that is, FEAR, they rely on fear through the trauma, also suicide in case you expose or exit…I’m talking mind control here, but I fight back, because if I don’t, THEY win…they won for 48 years, well 44 and destroyed So much of my self/life, I’ll be damn, if I’ll be silent anymore, even at the risk of sounding insane and many think I am when I disclose such, but for each silence, another victim is horribly tortured, raped, trafficked into a dungeon of hell they cannot escape from All over this world, and it’s not just a few bad guys here and there, this is a Systematized under tunnel ritual from ancient industry used for more than just paid rape, it pays for Arms, it pays for ‘knowledge’ of enemies, it pays for resources, land, minerals, bodies, labor, and POWER, and the most horrific thing about it is, is that many, who have been lured into so called ‘healing from’ or ‘self discovery’ or ‘so called spiritual Divine Empowerment’ are actually just being reinforced as to where they Will not see, and why, in 2011, we are Still fighting the Molechs, while thousands are sacrificed. It’s far more than just misogyny or patriarchy, because it’s a Power controlled Misogyny on levels that many couldn’t even dream of…but it’s the seed, children, generation, they are after…always has been. Jane REPLY 399. JaneFebruary 12, 2011 at 3:40 PM # Well, to Paul, I normally don’t bother even Discussing women’s human rights or human rights in general with Men anymore [exceptions to this rule] because it’s just rehashing mind triggers to me that simply are not worth the effort, however, I have to call BULLSHIT on this DRIVEL. “”It is so incredibly petty, ill informed and just plain bigoted to judge an entire gender on one man’s actions(and face it, they weren’t even that bad. Talking loudly? C’mon).”” Well Since you imply that you, mr MRA, hope for some sort of ‘meeting ground’, we can play the Stalin-Hitler pact here if you wish, so, let’s look at this, First of all, you say, it’s incredibly petty [meaning women’s complaints in light of let’s see, extreme Planned out violence to women in numerous regions, Congo, Honduras, Bosnia-Croatia, Rwanda, is just Petty to you, ok so I suppose you lump in the complaints of Gulag survivors as petty too, how about those confronting Islamization or in past, threats to the western order via violent communism, etc., funny how MEN DON’T THINK THOSE COMPLAINTS EVEN WHEN ‘EXAGGERATED’ ARE ‘PETTY’, so Why is that Mr. MRA? We could begin there, but see the Truth of the matter is, MEN or MRA’s as termed, don’t Give a rats ass when it’s WOMEN AS A CLASS/WHOLE IN ENTIRE COMMUNITIES [CHILDREN FOR THAT MATTER TOO] who are SYSTEMATICALLY SINGLED OUT FOR ‘EXTINCTION’ VIA VIOLENCE, THROUGH RAPE, ECONOMIC COERCION/STRATIFICATIONS FOR IMPOVERISHMENT, ETC ETC ETC] [caps for bold emphasis btw, not yelling], then it’s like this Magical Puff the Dragon Wand comes billowing out and these MRA’s just don’t seem to Notice anything is wrong, why it’s just the Petty complains of Women…hmmmmm let’s see, One man’s actions, women are ill informed, uh, bigoted, One man’s actions, Tell me sir, is it One man who raped and disembowel girls in the Congo [or is the New York Times, men operated as well, a source of ILL INFORMED TO YOU SIR?] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/world/africa/23congo.html anyhoo, that’s just One example, we could take all the numbers of systematic rapes in numerous places, now Tell me, I realize that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines [geesh, busy man there, or was it One wife with 700 personalities???? or better yet, HIS 700 personalities], but the actions of ONE MAN, boy, this ONE MAN, SURE IS BUSY NOW AIN’T HE? WHY THAT MAN HAS SOME SUPER POWER RAPING DICK THERE… why that ONE MAN is raping and slaughtering and buying up war porn all by his little lonesome self and You Mr. MRA and your Brothers are all being targeted by bigoted women due to this ONE MAN, why then, Sir haven’t you kicked this ONE MAN’S ASS YET? Or is it, that it’s not just this ONE MAN AND HIS ONE MAN’S ACTIONS? Hey I know the story of Jesus dividing the loaves of bread and fish, did this ONE MAN also divide his penis when he, alone, this ONE MAN’S ACTION, raped and killed all these girls and women???? Wow, talk about a MIRACLE!!!!!! “”It is easy to prove that men are more oppressed/discriminated against in western society than women. And the number of people who realize this are growing far faster than feminists. It would be wise to try to build bridges instead of burning them with this burgeoning movement. It will only grow in strength. Not only would many MRAs welcome the help but we may even find some common ground to work together towards and create a lasting partnership.”‘ Oh Really? More people are coming to realize that Men are more oppressed than Women, empirical data please? Oh, and let’s see, by more oppressed, do you mean by THESE examples, 1. male circumcision [a Male Begun/Male Patriarchal Institution or it is, that nasty ole ONE MAN AT HIS BUSINESS AGAIN, WHY HE’S NOT ONLY MASS RAPING WOMEN HE’S CUTTING OFF FORESKINS ALL BY HIS LONESOME SELF, GEE, TALK ABOUT ONE TOUGH GUY 2. males recruited or Signing up for WAR [a Male Begun/Male Patriarchal Institution or is it, that same ole nasty ole ONE MAN now also forcing MEN to sign up and create weapons of mass destruction and knocking off his brothers, Well Mr. MRA I guess, that ONE MAN did have to Knock off his Brothers so that HE could have those 700 wives and 300 concubines/prostitutes All to His lonely ole Self, again, Why haven’t you and your brothers Kicked this Nasty Ole ONE MAN’S ass yet, and Ended your having to be butchered for the War Machine yet? You poor, poor Victims of Discrimination! :O 3. lack of father’s rights in courts, well for Your information I actually support rights of parents, I think the courts, patriarchal as they are, Suck…On the Other hand, again, this is a System that was and is built on men and male patriarchy, SO, while it’s Clever to Use this argument to push for the MRA victimization of males [because child support is Such a horrid exploitation, and Concur, it IS, for low income men who often Do pay while RICH MEN HIDE ASSETS, OR BETTER YET, THOSE MEN WHO WHILE MARRIED WOULDN’T CHANGE A DIAPER TO SAVE THEIR LIFE BUT OH MY GOSH NOW THAT WOMAN SAYS, TO HELL WITH GETTING SMACKED AROUND, CALLED WHORE, SUBMITTING TO MARITAL RAPE AND FINALLY SAYS, I’M OUT OF HERE, TAKING CHILDREN, NOW HE, PISSED OFF, HOW DARE THE BITCH LEAVE ME, DEMANDS HIS RIGHTS–BY GOLLY HE WON’T PAY CHILD SUPPORT [CUZZ SHE’S USING IT FOR OTHER THINGS, WHEN MEN DO THIS WHILE MARRIED, FOR GOLF CLUBS, FOOTBALL TICKETS, WHY THAT’S ‘LETTING OFF MALE WORK STEAM/NETWORKING’] AND WHAT BETTER WAY FOR THE MRA TO PUSH FOR HIS ENTITLEMENTS, THAN ON THE BACK OF HIS CHILDREN… oh Yea, wanna go there, Remember, I’m FOR father’s rights, what I am NOT for, is when Men use children, as a vehicle to keep Control of women, using Children as a means of their patriarchal bullshit agenda…who Otherwise wouldn’t know their Child’s birthday if NOT reminded, most of them, and then All of a Sudden, now that the children are gone…never mind that in 10 years of marriage or so the WOMAN DID 99% OF ALL CHILD REARING, CHILD CARE, CHILD NURTURING, CHILD FEEDING, WHILE MAN SAT ON HIS ASS IN FRONT OF THE BIG SCREEN, DRINKING HIS BEER AND TELLING THE KIDS, NO NOW, I’M WATCHING THE GAME, HONEY, CAN YOU PICK UP AROUND HERE, GEE I WORK ALL WEEK, BOO HOO BOO HOO, DO SOMETHING WITH THESE KIDS, I’M BUSY…but NOW that She and children are gone, NOW HE wants his Rights, now HE is a Victim…and HOW dare they take Money from his paycheck? That’s the majority of the MRA boo hoo we are Discriminated against movement in a NUTSHELL, NOW, before your Head blows up, Mr. MRA ONE MAN’S ACTIONS…let me just say, for the Record, I have written and fought for Father’s Visiting Rights [when they are NOT abusive] and have written and fought against Parent Alienation and I have supported Jail Time for those Women who DO use children as Weapons…not as a Sympathizer to MEN, but as a Children’s Rights Advocate, on That I have taken slack from feminists [NOW] on this issue, HOWEVER, that in no way, MEANS THE MRA MOVEMENT IS CORRECT, it is a lot of bitter men who were and still are Abusive patriarchal Assholes, I know, I have debated with many of them ON this very issue…peel the Onion layers away and then you Really begin to hear past their ‘let’s build bridges’ bullshit, NONE OF THEM LIKE TO TAKE ANY OWNERSHIP OF SQUAT, it’s just easier to blame it on that old bitch no ain’t it? For the Record, there are Numerous Low Income Women who have also not been able to See their children, who pay Child Support, many driven into the Poor House, but you do NOT see THOSE WOMEN, BASHING FEMINIST FORUMS USING THEIR INJUSTICES AS SOME ‘JUSTIFICATIONS FOR MEN’S RIGHTS’ because you see, THOSE WOMEN, are victimized by the VERY same PATRIARCHAL GENDER BIAS ‘LEGAL’ SYSTEM AS MANY MRA’S ARE…the Difference is, those Women, know that when it Works in the FAVOR of MALE ENTITLEMENTS AND PRIVILEGE, DEPENDING ON HOW MEN WANT TO PLAY IT THE SYSTEM WORKS FOR THEM….the Reason why so many men do not gain sympathy for Parental Alienation [the biggest argument for MRA] is because it was those MEN who SET UP THE SYSTEM OF FAMILY…AND PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE WOMEN WHO DARE, LEAVE ABUSE…using children, as the vehicle to MAINTAIN CONTROL, when it became Such a problem that OTHER MEN, GOT FED UP WITH THE WELFARE ROLES [ANOTHER PATRIARCHAL COMPLAINT] THEN THE BROTHERS, CRACKED DOWN ON THE CHILD SUPPORT-VISITATION, so, the so called DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MEN is A RESULT, DIRECT RESULT, OF YOUR OWN DOING… it just depends on WHERE YOU SIT IN THE PATRIARCHY, now, those Women, who yes get revenge using Children [biggest MRA complaint] and Yes I know there are Some that DO, Just as much as I know NUMEROUS WOMEN IN HOMELESS SHELTERS AND WELFARE WHO DON’T GET CHILD SUPPORT AND FATHERS THAT DO SEE CHILDREN–so I guess this is a Class thing, [one area where MRA’S SHOOT THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT] but I do know women, who Yes, do use children as means of getting back…and I don’t agree with it, I don’t agree that men will be jailed for non-support while women when there is NO ABUSE are NOT jailed for Deliberate tampering with visitation…it’s selfish, it hurts the children, and on THAT I concur with you…FOR THE CHILDREN, but I detest, that Sad Reality being Used as a vehicle for a WOMAN HATING AGENDA…through MRA’S, USING A LEGIT COMPLAINT, AGAINST NUMEROUS OTHER NON-PETTY COMPLAINTS AS A MEANS TO SHUT UP THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT… it’s a tactic, not unlike the tactics of Hitler and Stalin…using a legit Injustice, as a COVER for a very SINISTER MOTIVE OF SILENCING VOICES AGAINST OPPRESSION THAT IS YES, systematic, deliberate, and controlled. So while you claim, many see the discrimination of men, I say, BLUFF AND BULLSHIT, no what the Public sees, is a Few, legit injustices, being UTILIZED TO MAINTAIN AND PERPETUATE A FAR LARGER INJUSTICE, BOTH CONTROLLED AND BORN FROM PATRIARCHY, that has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, benefited Man and Discriminated against Women, benefited MALE POWER on the BACKS OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN, and as Usual, USING THOSE CHILDREN, THE WOMB, AS THE ‘VEHICLE’ TO DO, JUST THAT, so Before you attempt to Build Bridges, Mr. MRA, I suggest, you First, go kick that ONE MAN’S AND HIS ONE MAN’S ACTIONS ASS for all the violence and rapes in the world since it’s just ONE MAN so you and your brother’s will be IN the clear and Then, I suggest, you DEAL WITH THE PILLAR, OF ALL THOSE SO CALLED ‘DISCRIMINATIONS AGAINST MEN’, THAT YOUR FATHERS AND THEIR FATHERS AND THEIR FATHERS, CREATED, BEFORE YOU EVEN BEGIN…TO START, ON THE WORKING ON THE BRIDGE…DEAL WITH THE PILLAR FIRST, that PILLAR CALLED, PATRIARCHY AND MALE SUPERIORITY COMPLEX AND ENTITLEMENTS. Jane REPLY 400. JaneFebruary 12, 2011 at 4:04 PM # Oh, and Paul, I was single mother of two girls for Numerous years, never got ONE DIME OF CHILD SUPPORT, and father never Bothered with visitation… and seeing it from the low income side of, Why I know a bit about the whole MRA agenda…they were some of the Loudest [right wing Patriarchs] screaming for Welfare Reform, then turning Right around, screaming against Child Care [because they are So damn CONCERNED FOR CHILDREN, MY ASS THEY ARE] screaming against abortion, screaming against birth control [many of them] and screaming against child support… Can’t have it all ways, but then, guess the Privileged, Male Privileged that is, Depending on Where they sit in the Class and Race Pyramid, Can demand it in all ways, so, to the men are Discriminated against more than women, BIG FAIL no, men are Discriminated against by OTHER MEN ON THE CLASS-RACE PYRAMID LADDER, A PYRAMID, THAT MEN, NOT WOMEN, BUT MEN, MEN, MEN BUILT… but MEN want to build bridges when Women can join sides with them in FIGHTING FOR WHAT ‘MEN’ WANT, AS LONG AS MEN GET TO KEEP THEIR RIGHT TO WOMEN’S BODIES, MINDS, SERVICE, FREE LABOR, MONIES, AND WOMBS… and then, of course, telling Women, that their complaints are Petty. It’s the Equivalent of a Robber Barron under attack by foreign forces telling the workers they can build bridges, revolting, while telling the workers that their starvation wages, is just a petty complaint… and Just so I am not misunderstood, on the Parental Alienation thing…while it Does happen, where women use children as pawns, MORE THAN OFTEN, IT’S MEN, USING CHILDREN, AS WEAPONS, TO KEEP AND MAINTAIN ‘CONTROL’ OF SOME KIND OVER WOMEN…that Feeds into the Alienation, yet I find it Amazingly Ironic, that the Very men who Scream for Father’s and Men’s Rights, just like that ONE MAN’S ACTIONS, don’t take Any action, on those Brothers, who ARE using children, as a pawn, to abuse, control, both women and children, they are Silent on this issue…while Demanding their Rights, in a Court System, OVER OVERWHELMINGLY PATRIARCHAL AND RULED BY THE LEGIS OF ‘MEN’… THEREFORE, your whole men are discriminated against more than women, is pure, unadulterated bullshit. Always has been, always will be… and for WOMEN, TO BE DELUDED ENOUGH TO EVEN THINK–THAT WORKING WITH MRA’S WHO WON’T EVEN DEAL ‘WITH THEIR OWN’ WILL CREATE ANY KIND OF DECENT EGALITARIAN CHILD FRIENDLY SOCIETY [YOUR LEFTIST BROTHERS THIS APPLIES AS WELL] IS EXACTLY, LIKE THE DELUSION STALIN HAD, WHEN HE MADE THAT PACT WITH HITLER… Hitler Invaded, and the More Women compromise with Sexist Men in Any way, buying INTO the lie that these MEN only have the best interest and common goals at heart, they too, like Russia, will find themselves, once they are feeling safe and appreciated, INVADED, CONQUERED, FIGHTING TO REGAIN THEIR LAST DYING BREATH WHILE THE COCK- ROACHES BURN DOWN THE CITIES…ONE BY ONE BY ONE, so, to your building bridges, based on that History repeats itself and a few things learned from Warfare, I say, Women, line up your front lines, and SHOOT FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS, LATER. Jane REPLY 401. gracemargaretFebruary 13, 2011 at 1:46 AM # Jane, you are awesome. I used to be involved in Goddess-centered beliefs and they were wonderful when I was a solitary practioner, it was extremely helpful in deprogramming from the patriarchal religious beliefs I grew up with and felt very empowering. But I agree with you that they can be used against women in very sneaky ways, you have to be very careful. When I started getting involved in local groups I came across a lot of women whose boyfriends/husbands were involved in Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) and there is some seriously messed up shit going on there. I encountered the most arrogant, vile men you can imagine and the women seemed almost blind to it. After that I decided being solitary was the best thing I could have done and that I didn’t really need a ‘sense of community’ that badly. I’ve been doing a lot of reading on cults and cult abuse and even the ones that seem at first to be enlightened or at least harmless usually end up with a lot of exploitation of members by the leaders and almost always some form of abuse of women and children. And a lot of the mainstream ones that most people wouldn’t consider ‘cultish’ have the same problems (Andrew Cohen, Ken Wilbur, Byron Katie, Landmark/EST, to name a few). REPLY 402. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 13, 2011 at 6:15 AM # Dear Jane, Why is it that males can proclaim their “Not ME!”s on this site and not realise that they are showing up with their pants down and their dirty jocks on display, because for them to say “not me” it means they are aware that there *are* those of their gender that are being exactly what they are proclaiming they are not, so if they were going to really be effective with their pathetic “Not ME!’ they’d be saying what they are doing about the other shits that are exercising privilege. But that doesn’t ever seem to be any sort of issue to these Not Me-ers. How others males behave is of no consequence to them. Because males don’t think that: “All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.” (Edmund Burke). Males lost all sense of honour. *If* you are male and *if* you have read the whole thread and *if* you can honestly say that you acknowledge that you do ‘enjoy’ privilege as a male and *if* you can see how it takes away from the rights of women… but wait, too many boolean conditions for any male to ever read this and respond appropriately. Because all those *if*s are actually boolean ANDs and as such, the filter would have ended with the second condition: (read the whole thread). BTW, I use the term ‘enjoy’ in the sense of: you have it, you partake of it, you feel you have the rights to it, like the right to free speech. I do NOT feel that ‘right’ myself, and I loathe and try to eradicate the effects of conditioning and mindset that tramples on the rights of any other human being. But, that is the *fact* of privilege: it *feels* like a right. And so it is unquestioned. REPLY 403. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 13, 2011 at 7:11 AM # Also, Jane: the points you made in the previous post had the weight of experience. May I submit my impression on the toads that log on to this site (like Paul) who read like perhaps part of the original post and get their dander up, and then step up to the podium and tap on the mike “testing-testing” and completely unprepared and without a shred of evidence launch into a self-pity party of why the premise of that post is wrong and that they are not anything like that and that women should just love them. And then they go away, gloating in the ‘knowledge’ that “well, I told her!” which is so freakin’ privileged it stinks, but heck, those buttheads won’t come back (unless the name is James or Andrew)… they’ve had their little say and off they go, taking their tiny minds with them. I read what you and others say, so the time you took to write it was worth it: I gained a lot from it. I’d be surprised if any of the James or the Andrews or the Pauls ever really read anything. REPLY 404. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 13, 2011 at 7:35 AM # Jane, you are the second person I’ve talked to recently who has given me almost exactly the same perspective on porn and the horrors that are actually part of that industry. So, no, there is nothing fun or innocuous about it! This other person was a mere child who was caught in the middle of it for a while, until she was rescued. I cannot tell names for two reasons: it would endanger her and I don’t know her real name anyway. But I know enough about her – she is a fellow artist with an incredible talent! – to know what she is saying is true. And now, suddenly, others have come forward with similar accounts. As you so astutely said: be cautious. Not paranoid: cautious… and aware. Be awake to what is really happening. And be ready to help those that need help, because they are there, before you, and if you don’t realise their need, you will miss the chance, and they can’t tell you. When I was deep in the mire of privilege and entitlement, I missed a lot. Things that idealistically I would have deplored, I ignored. Entitlement blinded me. I’d be lying to say that the conditioning doesn’t still affect me to some degree, but less so. What had to happen for me to attain this realisation, Jane, is why I despair of the lot of women ever changing. But I will fight to the death for the injustice to end, nevertheless. REPLY 405. ismeFebruary 13, 2011 at 9:10 AM # “why that ONE MAN is raping and slaughtering and buying up war porn all by his little lonesome self and You Mr. MRA and your Brothers are all being targeted by bigoted women due to this ONE MAN, why then, Sir haven’t you kicked this ONE MAN’S ASS YET? Or is it, that it’s not just this ONE MAN AND HIS ONE MAN’S ACTIONS?” Nicely put, there. REPLY 406. RickFebruary 20, 2011 at 3:37 PM # Some of the people here have mentioned that they think there are a few exceptions to men being assholes. I’m just wondering what kind of people those exceptions are. I’m most likely an asshole in every sense, so it’s not like I’m seeking any forgiveness or anything from people I don’t know. I’m just asking it because I’m curious. REPLY 407. gracemargaretFebruary 21, 2011 at 1:55 AM # Those exceptions would be people who are not assholes, which I understand can confuse someone who is a self-professed, gloating asshole with his head stuck far up his own. But why r u curious Rick? So you can use it to come off as not an asshole to put women offguard to further abuse them? Is your victim pool getting smaller? REPLY 408. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 22, 2011 at 5:47 PM # @ Rick: “I’m just wondering what kind of people those exceptions are.” Easy. Have a read of this thread. “Asshole” is pretty well-defined. Remove those characteristics, add some respect, empathy and a willingness to change things from within the male camp by addressing entitlement when you see it, including your own, and you’ve got it: that rare exception. REPLY 409. MelanieFebruary 25, 2011 at 11:41 PM # I hate men because they’re really retarded and they fuck everything up. Take my movers today, for example. First thing the dick wad did when he got to my house was ask me where I’m moving, like it’s any of his business. It’s like, “How about you get to work? I’m paying you by the hour!” And then he goes (about my house), “How much are you renting it out for for? If you don’t mind me asking.” And I’m like, “I DO MIND YOU ASKING, YOU NOSY FUCK! Now fuck off and get back to work! Oh wait, you were never working.” And he didnt bring any moving supplies so I had to run to Home Depot and buy them. And then he put my expensive ass dining table against the back of the moving truck, when I told him specifically not to do that since I dont want it to smack against the walls whenever the driver breaks. But alas, nope, he did it anyway. A great example of men being pompous and not listening. Women are smarter. REPLY 410. Earl JohnsonFebruary 27, 2011 at 3:11 PM # I believe that females and males should be equal. I have noticed that men talk more disrespectful about their girlfriends than women talk about their boyfriends. Like my friend talked about his sex life and engaged us with personal information about his girlfriend. Why is that, nobody knows. It’s one of life mysteries. But i think that love and respect is the basis to everything, in every feeling, in every argument. Then the world would feel and look better. Peace Earl Johnson REPLY 411. OutsideLookingOverFebruary 27, 2011 at 7:13 PM # @ Earl: “But i think that love and respect is the basis to everything, in every feeling, in every argument.” I agree, Earl. The first step to accomplishing equality is trying to sort out why men feel they have privilege over women. And agreeing that it does exist. And then, doing something *effective* about removing it. Then, we can talk about reaching that elusive equality. Because that’s the primary obstacle: male entitlement. To deny it exists, enables its existence and perpetuates its effect. REPLY 412. ismeFebruary 28, 2011 at 6:51 AM # “But i think that love and respect is the basis to everything, in every feeling, in every argument.” Yes and no. Obviously it’d be better if the world worked that way, but in context it means that women are wrong for hating men for hating and oppressing women. REPLY 413. lizorFebruary 28, 2011 at 7:15 AM # @Earl “It’s one of life mysteries.” is pretty disingenuous. Power and privilege aren’t a perplexing mystery. They are the rewards one group enjoys for perpetuating a social hierarchy – by, say, not calling some asshole for bragging about his sexual exploits and disrespecting a woman he purports to love. REPLY 414. ValerieMarch 26, 2011 at 10:23 PM # I love you. Seriously. REPLY 415. HecateApril 7, 2011 at 6:51 PM # Thought you gals would enjoy this bit from ‘Best of Craigslist’: http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/38211760.html Here’s the best bit: “I especially hate stockbrokers, you disgusting bottomfeeding date rapists extraordinaire. I loathe your cheesy attitudes, your raging coke addictions and your Madonna Whore Complexes. You’re dying to fuck ME, Little Miss Princess of the Working Class but you’d NEVER haul my ass out to the Hamptons, would you??? No, I’m just your local bartender pouring drinks down your fucking fat necks and taking your hoping-for-sex tips. Fuck you. We ALL fucking hate your asses.” REPLY 416. JonathonApril 13, 2011 at 10:16 PM # I was hoping i would find an article on this. I 100% agree with you. I am a guy, however I am not the average guy. I fucking hate sexist pigs. Especially men that treat woman like their slaves. I got so angry when my dad and his friend said “it’s a woman’s job to work in the kitchen. It’s a woman’s job.” they tried giving me a man talk. I thought it was fucking disgusting. There is no excuse to think that. They are “Men” most men do not have the intelligent REPLY 417. JonathonApril 13, 2011 at 10:25 PM # Sorry, I am typing this on my phone. Anyways what I was saying is most men do not have a high intelligent level to comprehend feelings. So either they call women “bitches” or any other unacceptable name to express the incompetence of their minds. Most men think they cannot express any full emotions because apparently it’s gay to express yourself. I absolutely hate most men. Especially the men that are around me on a daily basis. Especially redneck men. Their ignorance is just so confusing it appalls me. Men are just full of testosterone which makes them ignorant, selfish, sexist pigs. Thank you for writing this article. Im so glad someone else sees this. Btw I am far away from a stereotype guy. Most of my friends are women. They say I am very feminine (I am not gay though) I also hate when men expect women to strip for them and be their fantasy such as you see on magazine covers and such. Its like women are just sex toys. That’s the way men look at women now. I hate it. REPLY 418. ismeApril 14, 2011 at 2:21 AM # I’d disagree that men are unable to be better than they are, there’s just no real reason for them to bother. REPLY 419. OutsideLookingOverApril 14, 2011 at 4:19 PM # “I’d disagree that men are unable to be better than they are, there’s just no real reason for them to bother.” Agreed. That’s probably one of the worst – if not the worst – aspect of privilege: a sense of immunity. One can *hate* one’s own gender, or *hate* being a member, but does that mean one seeks to overcome those traits that marks me as privileged? That’s _after_ realising which behaviour, which thought-process is tainted… it’s not an easy row to hoe, and as a male, this realisation and acting on it pretty much puts you in a very strange place. Good job being gender dysphoric has already accustomed me to being maginalised, having done hormones for almost six years has further (visibly) marginalised me, so this goal/zeal/life- change is … well, not easier, perhaps, but certainly less of a scary step. I only wish I’d done it earlier, when i was still a man. I feel it means less now, like I’ve undermined the cause. REPLY 420. gracemargaretApril 14, 2011 at 6:33 PM # Hi Jonathon, I disagree that lack of high intelligence and testosterone are the reason why there are many men out there being violent assholes. Testosterone is just the hormone that makes boys develop secondary sexual characteristics like a deep voice, facial hair and more lean muscle mass. Testosterone doesn’t cause violent behavior, I think knowing you have bigger muscles and the strength that it gives you and knowing that you can bully people smaller than you (with little accountability for your actions) is probably more accurate. But it’s been drilled into our heads that men are ‘naturally’ violent due to this hormone. I think it’s the nocebo effect or the power of suggestion. There was a study done where women were given testosterone and the ones who were given a placebo thinking they got testosterone acted in a stereotypically ‘male’ way, being selfish and competitive in a game they were then asked to play, while the women who DID get testosterone were played fairly and calmly. For more on that see:http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com/2009/12/effects-of- testosterone-on-women-or-not.html The blogger linked above also makes this excellent point: “It remains my contention that testosterone (and anything else deemed strictly “biological”) is not to blame for men’s aggressive and otherwise violent behavior towards women. Part of why I believe this is that I’ve witnessed pre-adolescent boys without much “T” terrorising other children in grade school. The terrorisers were not the largest or strongest children and the terrorised were not the smallest or weakest. Far from it. “We know that in lesbian and gay relationships, it is not always or necessarily the larger person who is the chronic physical abuser or batterer. And one presumes that in at least some physically abusive lesbian and gay relationships, hormone levels, while variant, are more or less comparable. “Another reason I believe “hormones” don’t cause raced and gendered violence is because whites terrorise and abuse people of color, and whites, as far as I know, are not known for having extraordinary high levels of T. Nor are the rich, but they do violence all the time to the poor. What those who commit systematic violence and other oppressive harm with impunity have in common is that they are atop a social hierarchy, and are not accountable to those “beneath them”. Not levels of testosterone. “The mother of a female friend, when my friend was a girl, was beaten and otherwise abused by her mother repeatedly. The mother did so only until her daughter was large enough to stand up to her verbally, and then leave home. Did the mother’s testosterone level go down when her daughter grew more verbally empowered? Or was she finally no maintained before?” When you have priviledge and power over another group of people, you tend to be more of of a bully and abusive to those under you in status, and like Isme and OustideLookingOver pointed out, you have less of an incentive to change your behavior. I grew up in a family where females (and some male) relatives were psychologically and sometimes physically abusive and cruel to me and I can tell you that the older females acted exactly like we think it’s normal for men to act (and used the same blaming tactics), so I know that dymamic well and gender had nothing to do with it. Here’s a another dude (with testosterone!) who managed to say some briliant anti-misogynistic and pro-equality things in spite of being in possession of the hormone: “I deny that anyone knows, or can know, the nature of the two sexes, as long as they have only been seen in their present relation to one another. If men had ever been found in society without women, or women without men, or if there had been a society of men and women in which the women were not under the control of the men, something might have been positively known about the mental and moral differences which may be inherent in the nature of each. What is now called the nature of women is an eminently artificial thing — the result of forced repression in some directions, unnatural stimulation in others.” “The principle which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes — the legal subordination of one sex to the other — is wrong itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; and that it ought to be replaced by a principle of perfect equality, admitting no power or privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other.” — John Stuart Mill REPLY 421. lizorApril 15, 2011 at 9:20 AM # Awesome post, gracemargaret. REPLY 422. amberApril 22, 2011 at 11:52 AM # I know men will hate this but unfortunately this is so spot on – Men are the cause of most of the worlds woe’s – war – rape – violence against women and children – sexism – just about everything i can think of thats bad REPLY 423. amberApril 22, 2011 at 12:13 PM # The men on here are clearly trying to misunderstand and distract from this point of view – I can guess why – I especially like the I’m a nice guy act – Nice guys in my experience are too humble to say that – It’s also clear that most of the male posters are talking down to the poor undereducated ladies – I personally don’t give a shit about grammer and spelling on line – shit happens REPLY 424. OutsideLookingOverApril 22, 2011 at 8:19 PM # I agree – awesome post, GraceMargaret. So guys, let’s stop hiding behind the “testosterone made me do it” and start taking responsibility for correcting that inequality. It is in OUR hands. REPLY 425. gracemargaretApril 23, 2011 at 11:17 PM # “Nice guys in my experience are too humble to say that.” I totally agree Amber, they don’t go around DEMANDING acknowledgement or getting angry when women don’t give them their ‘cookie’ just for being a decent human being. REPLY 426. Rice n' PeasApril 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM # You’re allowed to hate men, that’s fine. But do you mind if I go around declaring my hatred of Jews? After all, Jews are oppressors. They founded their Jewish State (Israel) by oppressing people (Arabs). Can I hold every Jew accountable for the crimes of the Zionists in the same way you hold every male accountable for the crimes of misogynists? Can I hate all Jews because of the oppression carried out on their behalf? It’s an analogous situation, right? What’s wrong with hating the oppressors? Jewish State = Land of oppression. In summation; I hate Jews (by employing the same logic as you do). REPLY 427. OutsideLookingOverApril 24, 2011 at 10:21 PM # “It’s an analogous situation, right?” No. “In summation; I hate Jews (by employing the same logic as you do).” Logic. You need to do your maths and your research before spouting your ‘logic’ and embarrassing yourself with this sort of nonsense. Geez, you’re going to end up giving us males a bad name. REPLY 428. No SugarcoatingApril 24, 2011 at 11:03 PM # Get over yourself Rice ‘n Peas. Men (billions) oppress women (billions) all over the world. Throughout history. Everywhere. Things have been slightly better in the West for a few decades, although everything’s been going downhill after the turn of the century (opinion, not fact). The Israel/Palestine conflict is debated hotly and is on a much smaller scale. And what would be the women equivalent of pogroms, suicide bombers, etc.? What did women do to make men hate them so much? REPLY 429. ismeApril 25, 2011 at 2:06 AM # Oh, if only ND has said “I don’t hate all men, just the ones that ______” a few dozen more times in her blog. REPLY 430. Rice n' PeasApril 25, 2011 at 3:58 PM # OutsideLookingOver, you didn’t even try to give me a rational rebuttal. I’m assuming you’re not familiar with the Arab-Israeli conflict? No Sugarcoating, Jews oppress Arabs, they stole their land and slaughtered them (without provocation by the Arabs). “What did women do to make men hate them so much?” What did Palestinians do to make Israelis hate them so much? All Palestinians have done is defend themselves against Jewish imperialism. Jews = oppressors. Why shouldn’t I hate Jews? Give me one reason why I shouldn’t hate the oppressive, murdering Jews. Is it not okay for me to hate the oppressors? I know not all Jews are evil, but so what? Don’t tell that to me, go and take it up with Netanyahu and the rest of the Zionists. So yeah, I hate Jews and you’re not allowed to have a problem with that. If you do have a problem with me hating Jews then you’re just making excuses for the Zionist oppressors. REPLY 431. Rice n' PeasApril 25, 2011 at 4:13 PM # “The Israel/Palestine conflict is debated hotly and is on a much smaller scale”. It’s on a small scale? The State of Israel is the Jewish EPICENTRE! Israel is the land of the Jews, the ONLY Jewish state on the entire planet. It’s not just some little bout of fisticuffs. The Jews are oppressors, that’s the bottom line. I hate Jews because they’re oppressors, if you make excuses for Jews then you’re sticking up for murderers and imperialists. Don’ make excuses for those pigs and apes. And so what if it’s “debated hotly”? What difference does that make? Am I supposed to love the pig-like Jews because people want to debate the subject over tea and crumpets? The fact that it is “debated hotly” is neither here not there. I hate Jews because their existence is dependant on oppression of innocent people; men, women and children. Lets just put them all on a shuttle and shoot them towards the sun. REPLY 432. OutsideLookingOverApril 25, 2011 at 7:23 PM # Okay: rational rebuttal coming up. This site is about male privilege and how it usurps the rights of women, not about some other political issue. Of course, you as a man – a privileged one, or course – see any forum as a place to air your political views, regardless of how little those views have to do with the subject at hand. So, you are proving ND’s point: men are (c) obnoxious, arrogant, entitled, violent, stinky, crass, loudmouthed, stupid, craven, bragadocious, thoughtless, unreflective, abusive, selfish, lowbrow, willfully ignorant assholes. Thank you for proving her point through your behaviour. Now, instead of venting spleen about some unrelated political issue, how about doing something about your *real* issue: your ignorant sense of privilege. Or are you too busy being a troll? REPLY 433. roesmokerApril 25, 2011 at 7:36 PM # Rice n’ Peas, you’re so obviously trying to get us to validate your hatred of the Jews and if we don’t, you’ll call us hypocrites because all victims are allowed to hate your oppressors equally. 1) By “on a smaller scale” I believe No Sugarcoating meant, “smaller than the debate over men vs women”. Typically you think that Israel vs. Palestine is the be-all and end-all but really in the grand scheme of the patriarchy and the war against women, children and the planet? It’s pretty small. Just one more place on the planet where warring tribes of men make life miserable for the rest of the inhabitants of the space. 2) What is your real point here? That it’s okay for you to hate Jews? So what? Go ahead, hate ’em all you want. They don’t really care, just like men don’t care that we rad-fems hate them. This whole discussion is just a big derail, frankly. I agree with No Sugarcoating, get over yourself. REPLY 434. roesmokerApril 25, 2011 at 8:11 PM # OutsideLookingOver, thank you!! That is what I meant. REPLY 435. No SugarcoatingApril 25, 2011 at 10:42 PM # Wow. His posts got progressively more disturbing. And speaking of progressives, stop pretending you are one, Rice’n Peas. I will say that, yes, I am Jewish and do find his hatred disturbing. History withstanding, it is kind of unsettling to hear about how much someone wishes for your genocide. What’s more disturbing is that he first appeared to be a normal pro-Palestinian advocate. How is one supposed to have conversations about the Israel/Palestine conflict when some so-called progressive people are virulently racist? I mentioned the small scale, because there are far more expansive, violent conflicts all over the world and that small little area gets a disproportionate amount of debate and outrage. The oppression of women is a global issue and greatly minimized. As for the “debated hotly”…the point is that there are two contradicting versions of history presented by Israel and Palestine whereas the oppression of women throughout history is universally regarded to be fact – it is just the amount that people care which differs. But none of this is really relevant to the post. REPLY 436. gracemargaretApril 26, 2011 at 2:51 PM # Rice n Peas, Jewish people across the globe don’t define their identity and Jewish-ness by degrading and vilifying all things Palestinian. You’re talking about a political conflict over land and borders. Most men define themselves in complete opposition to all things female and feminine, and their very identity, dignity and masculinity is derived from treating women as inferior, contemptible and inherently degraded creatures who were put on this earth to serve them and their needs from cradle to grave. I don’t hate anyone just because they happened to be born male. The fact that someone is male isn’t the problem, the problem is one of belief systems and attitudes. I dislike and am sick to death of individuals who use the fact that they are male as license to abuse and rape and murder women and girls and deny women their basic human dignity and rights, and then tell us that God and/or Science justifies our inferior status. And if we complain or try to improve the lives of women and girls we are violently opposed and treated like freaks of nature and compared to Nazis and are told that *we* are the oppressors for trying to stop violence and discrimination against ourselves and our sisters. This happens everyday in every country on the whole goddamn planet and no one who matters cares. I don’t matter, no woman’s opinion or life matters to most men (and a few women who can’t face the fact that they are one of us.) REPLY 437. lizorApril 27, 2011 at 1:14 PM # Gracemargaret, I sooo loving your posts. Beautiful point about defining oneself as NOT that female thing. I think old R’n’P is not really the anti-semite he (assuming from his misinformed and supercilious position he’s a dude) was playing devil’s advocate to teach us little wimmins about our big bad prejudice. I wish he’d go back to the sandbox for a conversation at his own level. REPLY 438. Rice n' PeasApril 28, 2011 at 12:58 PM # Jesus Christ, what’s with these blogs and censoring basic common sense?! Nine Deuce, you know what I’m saying is true. Don’t just censor me, give me a logical rebuttal. Just hear me out. This is absolutely not irrelevant to the topic at hand, I think it’s quite clear what point I’m making. I’m obviously making an analogy. I hate Jews for exactly the same reason you hate men. Why are you all defending the oppressor? Some of you have said some fallacious things that are blatantly not true. Roesmoker, you said that the conflict in Palestine was “Just one more place on the planet where warring tribes of men make life miserable for the rest of the inhabitants of the space”. This is NOT true AT ALL. Anyone who knows anything about this conflict will know that the Jewish women in Israel are just as responsible as the Jewish men. The Zionist women are just as imperialistic, this is not about sex or gender. There’s just as many women in the IDF as there are men. This isn’t just the fault of Zionist men, it’s the fault Zionist PEOPLE. Men AND women. Someone show me some evidence to indicate the contrary, please. Someone please refute what I’m saying. Also, there are countless brave Palestinian women who sacrifice their lives for their noble cause. Women aren’t just idly standing by while this disaster unfolds, they’re getting involved, and so they should be. If you were a Palestinian woman watching her community be destroyed, would you just stand there and do nothing? No Sugarcoating, I’m not pretending to be progressive, I’m calling a spade a spade, the fact that the truth is unsettling isn’t my fault. I really don’t care if you think I’m racist, just like none of you care if I think you’re sexist. When Zionists stop oppressing, I’ll stop hating them. It’s very simple. Gracemargaret, I absolutely disagree with you. Observant Jews around the globe DO define themselves by a set of twisted, imperialistic standards that they think are “divinely inspired”. One day, an American Jew could be reading his Torah in the heart of New York, and the next day he could be living in a Jewish settlement in Gaza. ALL observant Jews subscribe to the same twisted principles; the principles outlined in the Torah. I’m not bullshitting you. I’m right. The Jews in Israel are motivated by what they read in their Tanakh (Jewish Scriptures). Please, just read the Tanakh and you will know that what I’m saying is true. The Jewish scriptures (specifically Deuteronomy 20) say that Jews are allowed to enslave and kill other tribes in and near Palestine. I’m not making this up. Jews are putting YOUR lives in danger, too. The reason that terrorist attacks take place in the west is because the west supports Israel, so this isn’t just some insignificant little conflict that is confined to the middle-east, it ripples out into the rest of the world. Again, please, tell me how I’m wrong. Gracemargaret, what you are saying is analogous to what I’m saying. You say: “I dislike and am sick to death of individuals who use the fact that they are male as license to abuse and rape and murder women and girls and deny women their basic human dignity and rights, and then tell us that God and/or Science justifies our inferior status”. This is exactly what I’m saying; I’m sick to death of Jews killing innocent people and then using their religion to justify their acts. Jews think what they’re doing is “God’s work”. I’m surprised you all don’t hate Judaism, when Judaism spews out so much misogyny. Just read the Torah and you’ll be disgusted at how the Jewish scriptures depict women, it’s horrifying. I’m really shocked that any of you would defend such a misogynistic ideology. Please, just hear me out. What I’m saying is ABSOLUTELY true. ALL observant Jews around the world subscribe to a set of ideas that say that killing innocent non-Jews is okay. If you disagree with me, show me the evidence that I’m wrong. This is my point; Jews are the oppressors and the imperialists and that’s why I hate them. I hate Jews for the same reason you hate men. I really don’t see why hating an oppressor is wrong. Let’s make it even more simple; lets just say I hate Israeli Jews. Give me a reason why I shouldn’t hate Israeli Jews: the ultimate war-mongers. Give me a reason why it’s wrong to blow up Jews in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Why is it suddenly not okay to resist oppression? Why shouldn’t I hate people that thrive on killing? Why do you expect me to love killers? I wouldn’t expect you to love heartless misogynists, so why do you expect me to love callous Zionists? You all think that only YOU are allowed to hate people you deem “oppressors”, but you expect everyone else to love their oppressors. You expect me to welcome killers with open arms. Why are you allowed to hate oppressors, but I’m not? Please, give me some answers. Just give me ONE logical answer! REPLY o Nine DeuceApril 28, 2011 at 1:00 PM # I deleted you because you were being aggressive and insulting people. Learn how to be civil. REPLY 439. gracemargaretApril 28, 2011 at 4:15 PM # Rice n Peas, every major religion on the planet has fanatics who use their belief in god as an excuse for violence and oppression of people of the ‘wrong’ faith. And pretty much every religion/cult/sect that currently exists are misogynistic, with a few rare exceptions. Even the gentle Buddha despised women. Our views are not analogous because I explicitly stated that I don’t hate men, yet you keep saying you hate Jews. I feel for the Palestinians who are being thrown out of their homes. These things could be resolved by nonviolent compromise, but there’s a lot of money to be made in war. Men are raised to be good little soldiers for a reason. Andrea Dworkin is one of my heros, she was Jewish and she understood the plight of the Palestinians. Read this article and tell me after whether or not you hate her, a Jew: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IsraelI.html REPLY 440. OutsideLookingOverApril 28, 2011 at 4:26 PM # GraceMargaret, you truly do live up to your name: you are such an elegant person! I agree with Lizor: I love reading your posts… they stand alone as statements of enlightenment even though they may be a response to someone who has definite issues and has decided this is a good place to air them (as the privileged would). So, whilst the quote “do not throw pearls before swine” comes to mind, there are those of us who take encouragement from your gentle words so to me that quote doesn’t apply. Thank you for being so steadfast and such an inspiration! REPLY 441. No SugarcoatingApril 28, 2011 at 4:29 PM # Grace Margaret, I don’t think this guy deserves your appeal to reason. I don’t think you need to quantify his desire to blow up random Jews with the fact that some Jews do give a shit about the Palestinians. Most do in fact. I have met my fair share of us vs them Jews, but I have never once spoken to a Jew who thinks it’s okay to go out and kill random Palestinians because they are the “enemy”. It is ironic that this guy is so obsessive in his hatred while there are people actually affected by the conflict who wish for less violence. I’m going to go ahead and bet that this is a white guy. REPLY 442. lizorApril 29, 2011 at 8:54 AM # Oh. I actually thought he was being facetious. He really is just a long- winded bigot. REPLY 443. gracemargaretMay 6, 2011 at 7:53 PM # Thanks OutsideLookingOver and Lizor. I always think what I write will make no sense to anyone, I feel so completely inarticulate most of the time that I wonder why I even try. So if I managed to get my point across that makes me very happy :) REPLY 444. ChristinaMay 7, 2011 at 10:09 AM # “What did women do to make men hate them so much?” This is such a sick question to ask. If anything it proves that we are still living in a very male dominated world, for only in such a world could men oppress women and girls so aggressively and then blame women for this aggression. This is exactly the same as blaming women for rape i.e. the “she asked for it” concept. In a male dominated world, every bad thing men do to women seems to always be the fault of women, according to men. Women need to understand that the vast majority of men have no desire to end their sexist male privileges. If women want to free themselves from such oppression we will have to do it ourselves. REPLY 445. No SugarcoatingMay 7, 2011 at 12:09 PM # Christina, I meant the opposite. Obviously women haven’t done anything to deserve such hatred, that’s the point I was trying to make. He was comparing the oppression of women to a situation where people are killed often on both sides and there has been a lot of mutual violence. Women, on the other hand, have barely even retaliated against violence from men let alone committed any significant amounts of violence out of resentment. The entire history and the root of our oppression has been squarely on male shoulders. REPLY 446. OutsideLookingOverMay 7, 2011 at 5:13 PM # Speaking from inside that camp, I can say that the “reason” he felt justified in making such horrendous statements is because “absolute privilege blinds absolutely”… I agree with NoSugarCoating: he probably *is* a white guy. He’s also a ridiculopathy. [embarrassed – again – for/by my gender] REPLY 447. HecateMay 7, 2011 at 11:16 PM # “Women, on the other hand, have barely even retaliated against violence from men let alone committed any significant amounts of violence out of resentment.” This is so true, OutsideLookingOver. I keep trying to bring that point up, and add that even radical feminists are not known to retaliate with physical violence. Their words burn hot as fire pokers (as they should). But then men use that as a justification for some pretty vile behavior, saying that women are ‘provoking’ them. I think the only incident I know of in which a radfem finally lost it, was when Valerie Solanas shot Andy Warhol. And even that was for reasons other than her hatred of men. REPLY 448. No SugarcoatingMay 8, 2011 at 10:42 AM # Hecate, that quote is actually mine. :) But, yes, I was thinking of all the accusations of radfems being violent and extreme when it’s really those criticizing us that will kill people because of their gender. There’s been so many massacres of women by misogynists in the literal sense of the word. There was that many who killed a bunch of radfems because he felt their ideology was “dangerous”. And yet we’ve never actually had a radfem go on a killing spree… REPLY 449. gracemargaretMay 8, 2011 at 6:05 PM # They have to overreact when women make even the slightest effort toward independence, education or even a little self esteem, that’s how you keep power and priviledge in place. They have to make us out to be monsters and compare us to genocidal killers (‘feminazis’). I just looked up a lovely video on Youtube for Mother’s Day called “This is To Mother You” and found this in the comments. Thank you for ruining my day: “Check out these Channels, they are the BEST on youtube. “A Voice For Men” “Pinegrove33” “ManWomanMyth” “JohnTheOther” “christy0Misty” “6oodfella” “Jessica22481” Join the rapidly growing Mens Rights Movement! Tell Femifascists to go? ???(>_<)??? themselves!" See, we're fascists and men need to start a MOVEMENT to stop us from oppressing them & taking away their rights! But the smarter ones know we are no real threat, that's why they gloat and ridicule us. I was watching the trailer for a movie about the Montreal Massacre called Polytechnique (where a male student Marc Lepine singled out and massacred 14 female students because they were taking away "men's opportunites and rights" by getting an engineering degree) and he is being praised by male commenters for being a hero and the feminist movement is to blame for the shooting spree because we are "causing men so much pain." This brilliant speech, Remembering Montreal 08: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuJ_7GBpEq4,just has these two comments: "WE NEED 1000 MARC? LEPINE'S TODAY MORE THEN EVER! MALE? POWER!" and "vive? marc? lepine!!!!" REPLY 450. HecateMay 9, 2011 at 12:20 PM # Oh sorry about that, No Sugarcoating! I bet I left that comment late at night… It is indeed sad that people are hurt because we can’t agree to disagree. It is much to the credit of redfems that in general they have never demonstrated the kind of poor impulse control that men have. Maybe it’s because men just aren’t as good at being contemplative and just leaving it at that. REPLY 451. ismeMay 10, 2011 at 7:46 AM # “absolute privilege blinds absolutely” Good line, I’ll have to remember that one. Even so, I still struggle to comprehend the insane hysteria (or “histeria”, if you’ll pardon a terrible pun) you tend to see when someone points out that men have it better than women in one or more aspects of life, and that perhaps something should be done about it. It’s like something a cliche villain in a crap movie might say. REPLY 452. ChristinaMay 12, 2011 at 8:30 AM # It is interesting that men can treat women as total sex objects and degrade them as much as they like and this is just seen as a harmless boys will be boys idea. But as soon as a woman takes a stand against this kind of blatant sexism, then she is suddenly a pure evil man hater. Clearly women must not question men’s behavior in any negative way under male domination. If this is true and I get called a man hater for opposing the evils of male domination then I carry the title of man hater with pride. If man hating in this context is going to end rape and male domination then perhaps its time for all feminists to strive to become active man haters!? REPLY 453. MitchJuly 10, 2011 at 6:18 AM # I’m a male and couldn’t agree more. I wish men and women could both get in touch with their more gentle, feminine sides and stop being so arrogant. I hate most guys i’ve met and find it hard to hold decent, intellectual conversation with most of them. It’s usually just this smug contest of who can be a bigger douche. Yeah, I will pass. I never liked sports or bimbos or expensive cars. I’d rather see some ACTUAL beauty in the world. Now watch some macho-man call me a puss for actually being able to have feelings. REPLY 454. Just MeJuly 10, 2011 at 5:56 PM # I believe men hate women because they know that women are more valuable than men. Think about it, which society is more likely to go extinct? Society A with 1000 women and 10,000 men or Society B with 10,000 women and 1000 men? The vast majority of men I’ve met are immoral and emotionally juvenile, causing them to have both a ridiculous entitlement complex and no sense of personal responsibility. Hence the misogynistic “nice” guys always screaming about women. “Yeah, women are superficial bitches because I want a harem of subservient supermodels, but they won’t date my obese, unkempt, unemployed self! The nerve!” Any intelligent woman sees the hypocrisy, but men seriously believe the infantile drivel they spew. Oh, and the entire reason for their entitlement? Some dangly bits between their legs. Seriously. The absurdity would be hilarious if this “logic” hasn’t caused so much evil, violence, and suffering for billions of women and girls worldwide. Men are threatened by women’s progress because women with options are less likely to settle for an overgrown toddler. Educated women are more likely to be financially secure, so they don’t need to rely on a man for support. More and more inferior men are being kicked to the wayside because of this. These men praise criminal losers like Marc Lepine and George Sodini because they see themselves in these two cowardly failures. Instead of self-reflecting and asking “how can I be a better man and potential partner for a woman?”, men would rather throw a temper tantrum and blame their failures on women, feminism, and whatever else they feel threatened by. Women need to stick together and support each other. I see men of all kinds spouting off the “woe is teh poor menz!!1one” propaganda. We also need to shun and isolate the misogynistic women who are so desperate to join the good old boys’ club that they routinely support anti-female laws and customs. Women have worked long and hard for the rights we deserve, but we must remember that there are those who would love to take them all away. Just remember. They need us, but we don’t need them. They know this, and that infuriates them. If we stick together, we will succeed against these misogynistic losers. REPLY 455. ChristinaJuly 12, 2011 at 5:52 AM # The only thing that men can do that women can’t is produce sperm. Other than this women can basically do anything men can do. And in many instances they outperform men. In fact women are starting to outperform men more and more in jobs that have always been reserved for men, like running a company. If their sperm is the only thing that they can bring, then how dare these assholes consider themselves superior to women and believe it is their right to treat women with total disrespect. REPLY 456. HecateJuly 12, 2011 at 12:49 PM # Praise for parthenogenesis! If only we females could self-fertilize, the ‘male’ problem as we know it, would disappear. Or at the very least, males would have to be damn thankful that we would consider allowing them to exist at all in such a scenario… REPLY 457. SugarpussJuly 15, 2011 at 4:40 AM # OMG! I just googled that Polytechnique Massacre (which I am ashamed to admit that I was not aware of) and here is a very telling bit of text from the Wilkipedia article: “A memorial erected in Vancouver sparked controversy because it was dedicated to “all women murdered by men”, which critics say implies all men are potential murderers. As a result, women involved in the project received death threats and the Vancouver Park Board subsequently banned any future memorials that might “antagonize” other groups.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre SO…. men prove that all men aren’t violent by sending DEATH THREATS to women???!!! If that isn’t irony, I don’t know what is. Fucking misogynist pigs! REPLY 458. OutsideLookingOverJuly 15, 2011 at 8:48 PM # Words fail me. Scratch the social surface a bit and you see this sort of thing (much less publicised, of course) repeated over and over. And continues today – I’m a nurse, and see the results of violence against women every day. In the cased of this event and the ensuing keffafle over the monument… says a lot about not only the men sending death threats but a society these men live in that instead of responding to the threats, they respond by removing what they think is the cause of the problem: a monument calling attention to an existing social calamity which is the sole responsibility of men in that society instead of using this as an opportunity to finally bring that violence to an end. Male-born persons, it’s up to *us*. We solely bear the responsibility for making this massively important change. How much longer must those we claim to love suffer under our hands? We can’t hide or pretend it’s not us: it *is* us! REPLY 459. HecateJuly 15, 2011 at 9:03 PM # Absolutely, Sugarpuss. It’s frightening that so many men like him fail so spectacularly when it comes to understanding that it’s the brutal behavior of their fathers that is really enraging them. I once tried to have a discussion with an ex about that. He had no problem joking that women were ‘feminazis,’ but when it came to talking about how he felt, for example that his brother had no second thoughts about throwing him through a window when he was little, or that his father was a womanizer, there was complete radio silence. I tried to understand and help him, but it came too much at my expense and his emotional abuse of me. A real man confronts his issues and demons straight on, without projecting, acting out in violence or goofing around. REPLY 460. OutsideLookingOverJuly 15, 2011 at 10:16 PM # “I tried to understand and help him, but it came too much at my expense and his emotional abuse of me. A real man confronts his issues and demons straight on, without projecting, acting out in violence or goofing around.” You have your finger on the pulse of why I find it so aggravating, so difficult to care for males in post-op recovery, Hecate. Women are infinitely easier to care for: they don’t put up this veneer of “humour” or stoicism that I have to penetrate in order to deal with the issues like pain or whatever properly. I prefer a sobbing, emotionally distraught 18-year old to some young bloke still coming out of the sevo/midazolam/fentanyl haze who thinks he ever so clever and witty. How/why do you women put up with it? I just wanna slap them! REPLY 461. HecateJuly 16, 2011 at 11:53 AM # Yeah, it’s very frustrating indeed, OutsideLookingOver. And the sad thing is that a lot of relationships are cut off prematurely due to this dynamic. Without some kind of emotional opening, any chance at relating is completely starved of life. Or maybe these guys prefer it that way, but I don’t see it as a way to live. And they love to sit there and say it’s feminists who shut them down… REPLY 462. OutsideLookingOverJuly 17, 2011 at 12:14 AM # Well, what with gender issues and all that I’m not a very good example of what a man should be like, but really, to lay blame on women for bloody everything is such a cowardly copout of one’s responsibilities. And you can be sure some clown will come along to say: “hey, not me, I wouldn’t…” you can *also* be sure he wouldn’t do any differently than those guys at the Polytechnique to prevent the loss of innocent life — who did nothing. Doing nothing is as bad or worse than being a perpetrator. Do nothing and you’ve taken a side of tacit agreement. Violence against women should/must be stopped by males: they/we are the violent ones in the equation. REPLY 463. SugarpussJuly 21, 2011 at 3:12 AM # Since this thread is about hating men and/or the evil shit they do, I would like to take this opportunity to rant about this manipulation article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2017022/Why-ARE-young-women- hitting-menopause-New-research-reveals-fertile-years-shorter-feared– women-discovered-.html Typical scare-tactic BS designed to coerce young women into early baby- dispensing mode. The male agenda is so obvious, yet I’m sure many sheeple will take the bait. Men (especially the old perverts) are eager, now more than ever, to brainwash & impregnate as many girls as they possibly can. However, no misogynist’s gameplan is ever complete without… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2016835/Queen-bee-syndrome- Women-warned-steer-clear-female-bosses-want-rise-ranks.html Training women to distrust other women who are in positions of power (as if there is truly such a thing). Yep, it’s the old “Female bosses are bitches” routine. Although the article makes a point about how some women are less sympathetic towards others (and tend to deny the existence of sexism in the workplace), it completely ignores the undeniable fact that such women are a product of their environment, or in other words…. MEN ARE THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. Misogynist propaganda is the lifeblood of the entire fucking universe (thanks to the dudes who invented it), but they blame the puppet instead of the puppetmaster? Not only do they render men immune to criticism, but they insist that it is women who are standing in each others way, and that they are “much worse” than most male bosses. Again… fucking scare tactics. I hate men. >_< REPLY 464. HecateJuly 25, 2011 at 10:51 AM # So here’s an item of amusement for you gals. I recently made the mistake of confiding in an acquaintance that I was once sexually harassed by a cokehead executive when I was on on vacation, had food poisoning and was pale as a little ghost, not to mention only 20 years old at the time. This was his stupid, New Agey, faux-meditation-practicing, jizzy evo- psych biological-imperative-happy response. I mean, it sort of starts off well, then ends with the usual male short-sighted, self-serving thought process: “It seems to me that men who crave power (and I think many women too), have a certain lack of internal resources. In my exposure to them they absolutely NEED wealth, accouterments, symbols of their power. Without it they are miserable. Not all wealthy or powerful people are like this, not at all; I mean the ones that crave it. With the power and/or money they can survive, but they usually pay a price. That price is that all other humans (and plants and animals) become objects that either bolster or are seen as obstacles to their success. Thus other humans become “the other”, which is something to manipulate. Thus that man’s execrable behavior was probably a simple grasp for a symbol of his power and prestige, in this case a very young sexual object. You weren’t even there for him, you weren’t fully human to him; thus your pale complexion wasn’t even noticed, you were his desired young acquisition of the moment. You could have been anyone who was 20 and pretty, he wouldn’t have seen you as human regardless. Completely inexcusable. Now that I have broached that subject, I have further thoughts on some of the male sexual behavior that you have seen and probably see from time to time that probably seems to show men in a less than flattering light, at least superflously. Might take a while to explain in full, but I talk from personal experience of a pretty long and reasonably examined life, so here is my perhaps well informed take on the subject. I have seen that men, particularly young men, are biologically programmed to be sexually aroused by little things, triggers, or vague concepts. At the teenage level, it can be a breast, or a certain hair color (Hugh Hefner got rich catering to that level of arousal), or for a little older man maybe the shape of woman’s leg or lips, or maybe a certain kind of clothing object; later it can be a certain style a woman has (see 95% of French movies), some specific or even pretty vague concept of what is a sexy woman. And if a woman comes along who fulfills one or some of these things, she becomes an object of desire. Okay, many women, particularly young ones, are subliminally aroused by fuzzy concepts too (such as- his good grooming and nice clothes shows he has style, and so he will take good care of me too- or, he is a tough man, I sense a good provider- or, his big muscles mean he will be a great protector ; in other words, the stuff of pulp fiction and romance novels). So really both sexes are biologically programmed to reach for certain imperitives. But, compared to men, women are not often sexually triggered by such simple things. .. Also, I don’t mean that young men are not wholly attracted to whole women. They often are, but a lot more than women, specific simple triggers make them want to have sex. It is designed that way for procreation, and the behavior of men can be better understood in that context. We men really are not in control in the sexual realm as much as we would like to think we are. I speak from personal experience here. I watched my own head swivel in a way that made no rational sense, for many years, when a woman with a certain look appeared in a room. Little things about them just distracted me in a way that made me feel like I had no control and even less power. And thus I attributed to such women a power that was illusory. It took me to at least my late 40’s to realize that it was me who was perceiving them as sexual beings first, even though rationally I thought I had seen them in their full humanity all along. And this realization gradually allowed me to finally see women as full human beings. Now this the stuff of comedy as well as drama, it is hardly news that men act silly around sexual triggers. But that someone like myself who studied eastern and western philosophy, who meditated, who was kind to kids, animals, old people and plants (yes, a damned green scout in so many ways), and even liked so many romantic movies that are 98% made for women, could not see the reality that the way half the human race was effecting me was in my own head and biology, and it was an illusion. At least I couldn’t see until I was deeply into middle age. Okay, gotten a little off track, but I wanted to point out that at some primitive level, that nasty executive was merely one of the worst examples of what so many men struggle with. In his case, his lust for power caused him to be excessively crude and cruel (and the cutting off of his cock would probably be a just reward, maybe that eventually happened?), but my thought is that even nice smart men can act like real idiots when something triggers an item with a high listing their sexual catalog. On another level, a savvy women will be able to enjoy the benefits, or just have a sympathetic smile without being cynical about or resenting the biological imperative that causes men to act this way. Of course I refer now to a mature women….now am I on to something here, or (to quote from the ever inspirational Blazing Saddles), are we just jerking off?” Don’t know about you ladies, but my ‘sympathetic smile’ went on vacation a long, long time ago… Notice how he assumes a familiarity with me that doesn’t actually exist! I really just want to let men, apes and dinosaurs lie. They’re… so much detritus under my feet really. Hardly worth a second look or thought. REPLY 465. SugarpussJuly 26, 2011 at 2:04 AM # @Hecate: If I hear one more dude using “biology” to justify their douchebag behavior, I think I’m going to go on a rampage. In other news, I really need to set up a blog of my own. I’m so full of bile, but there is really no appropriate place to spew. REPLY 466. joyJuly 26, 2011 at 8:04 AM # Why I hate men: “I’m not a rapist, even though I’ve been in positions where I’ve *technically* raped somebody.” – My ex. The best (male) one Men apparently distinguish between the action of “raping” and the mental state of “being a rapist.” They think you can do one without being the other. The mental gymnastics deserve some sort of medal. (This in addition to a lot of other faily things he had to say about “matriarchy” and so on and so forth, antifeminist bingo card stuff. This guy considers himself cutting edge, a head and shoulders above other men, etc.) REPLY 467. HecateJuly 27, 2011 at 3:34 PM # Ah Sugarpuss, what to do? I’d love to read your blog, should you decide to start one. Though it’s certainly been wonderful interacting with you here as well ;) Regarding the whole justification that was emailed to me above, I gotta say, if some fuckhead walked up to me in a bar, talking about his ‘biological imperative,’ he wouldn’t have time to blink before his balls were in his mouth. Ugh, the very term sounds like it should be a name for a laxative, or some shit like that. ‘Use Biological Imperative! It will help you take a really great dump!’ Of course that could be very useful. There are a lot of men I’d love to take a dump on :) But then, knowing them, they might find that rather exciting. @joy – I know. I despise head games like that. I think I wrote about it here before, but I once took a college class in which we were discussing the concept of ‘intersubjectivity,’ and the prof thought he’d push our buttons by using the example of rape. I said ‘Oh, that’s just genius. So according to this concept, it’s ok if a woman is raped, because she’s aware of the intentions of the rapist?! Come on now!’ I mean, what do men take us for? REPLY 468. gracemargaretJuly 27, 2011 at 5:58 PM # Joy, he seriously admitted to ‘technically’ raping someone?? WTF??? When I hear this new slew of people like ‘Dilbert’ creator Scott Adams saying rape is a natural instinct for men and all the people who blamed reporter Laura Logan (http://mediamatters.org/blog/201102160010) for being gang raped in Egypt, I have to wonder about the women in their lives. With so many unreported rapes, these guys who gleefully proclaim it’s totally natural or that certain women “provoked” an assault, is it too far-fetched to think they have done it themselves? Maybe the police should interview ex-girlfriends and dates. I mean if someone went public with their belief that it’s OK and natural for parents to abuse and molest children, wouldn’t a rational person think that a call to Child Protective Services might be in order? There are animals who kill their young and child abuse has been going on for thousands of years. I don’t think anyone would write a book called “A Natural History Of Child Abuse.” (Yes, there IS a book called A Natural History of Rape, which is thoroughly debunked here by an actual evolutionary biologist :http://www.uic.edu/labs/igic/papers/Coyne_2000.PDF. Hecate, you should send this to that mansplaining acquaintance.) REPLY 469. HecateJuly 27, 2011 at 9:15 PM # Thanks gracemargaret :) To think that had I never found this blog, I never would have come across the wonderful term ‘mansplaining!’ I love it. The link doesn”t show up unfortunately, but seriously, the first name of that book’s author is ‘Randy?’ How silly. Well, I know it’s more of a British saying, but still. I like the ‘Publishers Weekly’ review of it. They at least saw the inhumanity of such an absurd thesis. So nice to come here and meet women who refuse to make the usual excuses for men. It’s like taking my daily multi-vitamin. It can only make me stronger! And now I shall burn a fragrant candle, take a nice bath and generally relax, all thanks to being safe in my home, with no male in sight =) REPLY 470. gracemargaretJuly 27, 2011 at 10:17 PM # Hecate, I’m not sure why the link isn’t working. You can look it up by searching for “Of Vice and Men: Fairytales of Evolutionary Psychology” by Jerrry Coyne (its a PDF file). Coyne is an evolutionary biologist and he shows the pure junk/pseudo-science in Randy (I know,right?) Thornhill and Craig Palmer’s book, and in a good deal of evolutionary psychology in general. It’s an excellent takedown, I highly recommend it. REPLY 471. IsmeJuly 28, 2011 at 2:36 AM # I’ve never seen the appeal of using “biological imperative” or somesuch as a defence. If men are genetically incapable of acting like human beings, then they waive away any human rights they might have, and lump themselves in with any other dangerous beast to be culled, or at least restricted to safari parks. Somehow, I don’t see many men being in favour of this, but it seems to be the logical conclusion based on that premise, with the exception that human being defaults to male anyway. REPLY 472. lizorJuly 28, 2011 at 4:32 AM # I think this may be the review that gracemargaret was linking to? http://asa.chm.colostate.edu/archive/evolution/200004/0012.html “The problem is that evolutionary psychology suffers from the scientific equivalent of megalomania.” REPLY 473. HecateJuly 28, 2011 at 2:18 PM # Thanks lizor and gracemargaret :) I love that he puts evo psych on the level it belongs, with pseudoscience like phrenology. I have a phrenology skull! Bought it at a second hand shop in London. Sometimes guests use it as a resting place for their hats :D I’m glad Coyne point out that behavior is a dynamic process and so not so easy to pin down with facile explanations as to what Bob the Caveman might have done. He’s absolutely right that people are really just looking for an easy out. It’s his fault that he’s still living on in our bumpy skulls, making us do awful things, goshdarnit! That’s a good point, Isme. Another good reason why that kind of asinine speculation should have gone the way of the dinosaur by now. REPLY 474. lizorJuly 29, 2011 at 6:22 AM # Right now I am reading this book: http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html which I am loving. She’s a great writer and eviscerates the “science” behind gender determinism. I like Isme’s point that if having a penis means one is biologically bound to rape, then the penis-bearers should be subject to strict controls. Maybe a curfew for all males – none outside after dark – would be a start? REPLY 475. gracemargaretJuly 29, 2011 at 8:14 PM # Lizor, I think the link you posted is actually a very brief summary of the original article, which is eleven pages long. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong when trying to link it, so I’ll try it one more time: http://www.uic.edu/labs/igic/papers/Coyne_2000.pdf It’s very worth the read, especially if you missed professional douche/evo-psychologist Steven Pinker’s strangely enthusiastic support for ANHOR: “the book has been warmly embraced by some evolutionary psychologists, notably by Pinker, who has praised it as a ‘courageous, intelligent and eyeopening book with a noble goal.’” How is a book that promotes the idea that all men are rapists ‘noble’ and ‘courageous‘? Well, Pinker thinks feminism is this powerful political force that ruthlessly censors poor dudes like him for ‘honestly’ talking about women’s biological inferiority and status as a sex class. Pinker supported Larry Summer’s statement that the reason there are fewer women in science and engineering is because women are inherently lacking in scientific and mathematical skills and not due to discrimination. His sister and fellow gender essentialist Susan Pinker also slammed Delusions of Gender. A great debunking of the myth that women are bad at math/science is a talk Rebecca Watson did for Center of Inquiry called Women’s Intuition and Other Fairy Tales.

This talk was done in April. I remember a sense of relief that someone in the skeptical community finally took on this tired stereotype and put it to rest. But, of course, Rebecca had to be put in her place for that.http://blogs.plos.org/retort/2011/07/07/the-inhuman-response-to- rebecca-watson/ The two might seem unrelated, but I’m not so sure anymore REPLY 476. OutsideLookingOverJuly 29, 2011 at 11:17 PM # Lizor, considering the amount of rape in conjugal settings, this would only be a start, really. How about: one strike (i.e., one report of *any* sort of rape) and the courts mandate an implant of some sort, something to obliterate – or at least diminish – that sex drive? Again, I’m not saying that the testosterone-fueled sex drive is the main cause of rape – rape is a hate crime, not a sex crime – so perhaps we need to get at the source of the hate and deal with that. Implants are easier. REPLY 477. lizorJuly 30, 2011 at 12:21 PM # @gracemargaret I see you are right about the links. Thanks so much for the links and the video. I’m not surprised that Pinker slammed Fine’s work given that Fine debunks Pinker’s “Sexual Paradox”. @OLO, yeah you may be right re: implants. However, I don’t buy into any of the BS about rape being a natural or sexual act. I just figure if people in authority are insisting that rape and violence are the natural behaviours of the bepenised, then measures should be taken for the safety of others. Sort of like muzzling a Pitbull. REPLY 478. AnonymusSeptember 1, 2011 at 10:56 AM # Why do I have a feeling that this article was written by a bitter Feminist lesbian who is a sexist & has only dated assholes. REPLY o Nine DeuceSeptember 1, 2011 at 1:59 PM # Wait, I’m a lesbian who dates shitty men? REPLY 479. SugarpussSeptember 1, 2011 at 5:53 PM # Anonymous (spelling corrected) said: Why do I have a feeling that this article was written by a bitter Feminist lesbian who is a sexist & has only dated assholes? (punctuation corrected) 1. Many women are bitter because we live in a society that mocks, ridicules and tortures us on a physical, mental & emotional level. Our work, words and worth are devalued to a point beneath even the lowliest of men. I was once told, by a misogynist MRA piece of shit, that a homeless man with no college education isstill more intelligent & worthy of recognition than a female lawyer/doctor/CEO, etc. And let’s not forget the fact that every organized religion on the planet is based on the self-serving, ego gratifying LIE that “God” is a man (complete with terry-cotton robe & Birkenstock sandals), and that women were merely created to fill the role of servant, helpmate, fucktoy & fetus vessel (far be it from me to quote a man but, as Freddy Krueger said, in Nightmare on Elm Street 2…. “Helpyourself, fucker”). And this shit is only the tip of the iceberg. I haven’t even covered sex trafficking, rape, pedophilia, abortion politics, wage gap, torture porn, honor killings, child brides, blatant disrespect of women in the media, slut- shaming, flat-out denial of employment in male-dominated industries, Family Guy, Howard Stern, Rush Limbaugh, almost every fucking movie ever made….etc, etc. Gee, how could women possibly be bitter? heh If men were forced to endure even half of the shit women go through, you would all be screaming in the street, throwing your beer cans into passerby’s car windows and shooting anything that moves. Oh wait… men already do that. 2. Other people’s sexual preferences are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. 3. Women lack the systemic power to be truly sexist. Again, men are the innovators of gender-based discrimination, not women. This is where “male logic” gets foggy. For every action, there is an equivalent reaction. Kick a dog enough times, and it will eventually bite your fucking foot off. Men have been the kickers for a long, long time… and they keep kicking… and then they have the audacity to complain when a handful of women nip them on the kneecap. Women are so low on the status gauge that our own defense of ourselves, our hate forbeing hated, is twisted & manipulated by men to make us look like the perpetrators of sexism. This is the mind-fuck snake oil that misogynists have been selling for decades, I’m happy to inform you that you’ll find no buyers here. Now… GTFO. REPLY 480. lizorSeptember 2, 2011 at 10:20 AM # Calling women sexist is like saying “The fight started when she hit me back.” REPLY 481. gracemargaretSeptember 2, 2011 at 3:28 PM # Brilliant Sugarpuss! Funny how women’s healthy and natural acts of self- preservation are pathologized by society and seen as ‘anti-male.’ REPLY 482. dannikaSeptember 10, 2011 at 7:33 PM # LOL! I love this blog. Nine deuce…you are a genius. Who knew “life’s secrets” could be found in blogs such as this one. The same sentiments are wrapped it up in a pretty little package and termed “12 step Program To a Peaceful And Fulfilling Life.” You ought to have a young, white, male buppy, metrosexual ghost writer and have your thoughts published; otherwise, it will fall on deaf ears, unfortunately. REPLY 483. LiaSeptember 15, 2011 at 10:48 PM # WHY I HATE MEN Ah the reasons… Let me start at the beginning. The day I was born, A marvelous day right? My mother was so happy to give birth to me, and so was my father (Or so he thought). A doctor came in, and discussed with my mother that he had reason to believe that I had some visual problems. Several tests later, they discover that I am legally blind, and my eye condition is a rare one. The optic nerve connecting my eyes to my brain is weak and a brownish color. Also my eyes go back and forth of their own accord. My father, stressed and upset about it, leaves my mother to take care of me on her own for 2 weeks! Eventually we got along ok, but years later after my sister is born, and old enough to play sports, he and I drift apart. I am useless to him, seeing as I can’t play sports, nor do I want to. I always loved to draw, and he never really encouraged me. So he and my sister are doing great, he became her softball coach after my brother was born. Later on he became my brothers wrestling coach. While me and my mom hung out. She was an alcoholic for a while, but I’d still rather hang out with her instead of my dad. Many years later, public school isn’t working for me. They won’t help me do my school work, or pay for transport to a specialty school, so I decided to go to Oklahoma School for the Blind in Muskogee Oklahoma. My mother cried, because we always had each other to get through life, and I would be 2 hours away, on my own. My dad didn’t really care if I went there or not. He was too busy with sports and the like to care what was going on with me. I mean, I love my dad, but back then he was just… I don’t know, uncaring I suppose. So, fast forward to graduation day. My grandma, mom, and dad showed up. Nobody from my dad’s side of the family showed up. My dad gave me 100$ as a gift for graduating. I was pretty happy, even though I felt like one of the most forgotten people on the planet. I guess even 3 people showing up was better than none. Plus, my mom was my best friend, and my mentor. She had her share of problems, but we still hardly fought. two years later she stopped drinking, and is still sober. My sister graduated a few years ago. Almost everyone on my dad’s side of the family attended, and my mom and brother drove down to be a part of it. I was busy at that time so I missed it. A week or two after the graduation ceremony, my dad held a grad party for her. She was headed straight to college, unlike me, who was still a wannabe artist. I went to the party to make up for my absence from her graduation, and the party was HUGE. She got dozens of presents, hugs galore, and then the thing that broke my heart. My dad told us all to gather around the television after we all ate cake. He put a DVD into the player and pressed play. The screen was filled with sentimental music, videos, pictures, and many heart felt things. I held my tears back, but when I got home I let them flow. My dad still doesn’t know I was upset about it. I’m not saying she didn’t deserve it, because she certainly did. But why didn’t I get such a heart felt present? Give me 100$… and that’s it? Oh… I got some cards… but nobody hugged me. Nobody gave a crap what I, a legally blind girl, first one to graduate high school in generations, had accomplished. My dad always was career minded. I just can’t center my life on money. I’ve always been poor, probably always will be, but I know how to survive like that, and honestly it’s not bad if you know how to penny pinch. Moving on again… In high school all the guys were always talking about whose was bigger, and how good of sex they had the night before. WHO FUCKING CARES?! I mean really? I never quite liked kissing boys in high school. I liked being around them, because I thought they were fun, and some of them were downright friendly. The best boyfriend I ever had never kissed me at all. We just sat around and talked about stuff like video games and music. I may be a lesbian, but I liked men till recently. Calculating all the shit I’ve been through, I’ve decided I hate 90% of men. I probably don’t even hate you, the person reading this I mean. Unless you are an attention seeking troll. So, continuing on the story, I went on in life, realized I liked girls, got lazy for a long while, and only had one true friend. Unfortunately, that true friend fell in love with a man, and pretty much disappeared from my life. I just wonder if she’s ok. A friend of mine in 6th grade was super close to me. It was when I was still in public school, and she was kind of like me as in she didn’t see well. Our best-friend relationship ended because her and some guy were having sex because he lived with them, and her mom never told her about birth control. She got pregnant, I was supportive of every decision she could make. She said she wanted to keep it, but I saw her months later and she was thin. I think her mom made her get an abortion, and didn’t give her a choice. After that, I never saw her again… Many years later, my brother didn’t graduate, but got his GED. He started living with us, and never paid rent. I didn’t mind back then, because he was a very responsible, happy, relaxed person. My mom got cancer and we had to move into an apartment because she was too sick to work. I took up all the responsibilities of the head of household. I was the sole rent payer, and had to ask for assistance to pay for food. My brother went and stayed with my dad for a few months, and got fed up, so he couch hopped. Finally I felt bad for him and let him live with us, although it was a tiny 2 bedroom apartment with very little living space as it was. From there things just plummeted. He would invite the stupidest people over, and get drunk with them. He had to sleep on the couch, so we never got to use the living room at all. The worst part was when my mom went into remission. We were so happy, but the bad news was that her doctor screwed up her health very badly… he fried her insides so badly that she had a hole leading into her vagina from her rectum. She is still in pain to this day, five years later. My brother would party every time she went to the hospital for an operation, and leave the place a mess, though I had just cleaned it up the day she left. I admit I wasn’t perfect, and at the time I was addicted to the computer. That’s all I did, day and night, never slept, just gamed and chatted 24/7. Thankfully, I am no longer like that, and leave the house daily. Today, my brother has severe personality problems. He picks fights with my mom, saying she’s a pill head because she takes meds. Like wow, have you SEEN the hole in her vagina?! No, but her doctor has, and so has my grandma. I’ve seen the outside damage, but not the inside (TMI!) My mom got a small lawsuit for having her body ruined, and her attorney ripped her off. She bought us this cool house with two living areas. I have my own little apartment upstairs, it’s small, but it’s perfect for me. My brother is still living here, mooching money every time he gets the chance. My mom just won’t kick the asshole out, no matter what he breaks, who he offends, or even if he makes me cry. My brother isn’t a physical abuser, but he’s a huge mental abuser. He is SUPER controlling, bossy, contradictory, argumentative, and he can NEVER be wrong. When I came out to him, he didn’t believe me, still doesn’t, at least I think. So, just a couple hours ago, I was joking with his girlfriend about skinny-dipping. I said this exactly: “yea, sometimes I skinny-dip at night, so be careful or you will be blinded by my glowing-white ass if you happen to see me.” He walked in in the middle of it, and only heard something about skinny dipping and it involving her. My mom was laughing when he said, “NO. She is NOT going skinny dipping with you!” I thought he was joking, cause I mean, I obviously WAS joking, so I replied: “Aw, why not?” My mom spoke up and said “She didn’t say that. She said your girlfriend better watch out for skinny-dipping, or be blinded by her ass.” He then said, “Well, ever since my other sister stole my friend in high school, I can’t help but feel scared.” That ‘friend’ of his, was a guy. My younger sister had sex with him in FRONT of my brother. It happened so long ago, and only once. I mean, my brother is 22 now. It happened when he was like 16 or 17. And my brother was the one that started the *steal my girlfriend* joke. I don’t really like relationships much, because there is just so much drama, and plus if you have a romantic relationship with someone, everyone else around you gets pushed away a bit. One day I’ll find a girl who is family oriented, and has good values. She also needs to be my type. Oh, and the girl my brother freaked out I might steal was straight, and not my type. She was hilarious, pretty, and nice, but not geeky at all. Oh, about me, I’m 30, but I often am mistaken for a 13 year old. I am very short and young looking, and I don’t mind at all. I love to draw very much, and have started college for a degree in digital media. AKA: Flash animation, 3D animation, Photoshop, and etc. REPLY 484. JoeOctober 17, 2011 at 4:41 PM # Probably will be unwelcome here being a man but I think this is great. Found it whilst searching I hate men. I’ll be back to read more. REPLY 485. SugarpussOctober 17, 2011 at 9:12 PM # Ah, fresh meat. REPLY 486. Peggy meharryNovember 6, 2011 at 1:25 AM # You hating men story was great!!! All my friends hate them too ( for the most part) and I agree with your assessment with a smile as it was the first time I had ever actually seen it expressed via the written word. Now I am looking for part two of your writings!! Thanks for this one! REPLY 487. ChristinaNovember 6, 2011 at 12:48 PM # I think there are quite a few of us who feel this way. REPLY 488. SuadeNovember 13, 2011 at 10:34 PM # Reading over this page makes me wonder… What men have you all been with during your lives to make you hate them so? You’ve seen the bad side of men in the small picture in your lives which are not even fully lived, and you all hate men for what they have done to you. I’m a 16 year old male… and I consider my self a “Nice man” even though many of you don’t believe one exists. it is possible for men to have human emotions, show fear, love, and compassion. It’s also possible for men to want more then just to have a quick fuck every now and then. I’m striving for love, people I know all they want is love. Maybe it’s just some people in this generation but we all don’t just want to harm women. It’s the people who brought up their kids who make them the way they are and the traditions they were raised with. If someone implants the thought that men are better then women into their child’s head he will think that all his life and prove that fact where ever he can. I’m not saying males are perfect, In fact we are pretty fucked up. But women are capable of doing the same thing to men. It’s just not as talked about among men. Lets say… a male breaks a women’s heart and she’s hurting a lot. She talks to her friends about it and they all agree men are pigs for what they have done. Now lets say a women breaks the man’s heart. Men don’t talk about it as much as women do due to pride. They keep it inside and try to “Man up”. In this situation it seems nothing has happened and life can go on. Moral of the story, Women are capable of being the same thing as men. So before you go out making a page as so. Think about the world, and think of how many people are in it and how many you have actually known. If you still think we are all just useless then fine. But just consider the numbers. Over 7 billion people, and every single male out of them has been labelled many of the names stated above, Pig, Ass holes, stupid, Violent, and un reflective, useless and selfish. Not all of us are like this. But all of us are human. Any ways I’m done my rant about the subject and to who ever reads this good day to you. REPLY 489. TuomasNovember 19, 2011 at 4:42 AM # Well Suade I’d say men are generally more pig-like than women. Not to mention more violent. The vast majority of people in army for instance are men. All the violent games are directed at men. Men are grown to like killing and violence. Heck in Finland if you don’t like killing you go to jail. In other words if you refuse to go to army you go to jail, like I’m going next June. The joke here is that there isn’t even any threat of war. In academic circles I guess I would be called a pacifist but the truth is that most of people will just see me as a coward :) Hurray. Oh look at that one he doesn’t like violence so let’s socially molest him he’s probably homo. At least he’s not a real man. REPLY 490. SugarpussNovember 20, 2011 at 7:04 AM # *ignores the simple-minded rationale of Suade* I just don’t have the strength for another spoon-feeding session. @Tuomas: Yes, by hook or by crook, they will fashion you into the destructive creature that they feel men are supposed to be. Sending you to jail will essentiallyforce you to become more violent because that is an environment where aggression is mandatory for the sake of survival. REPLY 491. MedunoNovember 20, 2011 at 9:49 PM # Well Suade, sorry for asking but what to you know about being a man? You are just 16 years old… Let me tell you my story. I was born and raised in Europe where sexual harassment was and still is ok. I was attending in a high school where I did not only learned the usual staff, like math, history but I learned cooking so one day I can become a chef. We had practicum once a week and during the summer break. I was 15 years old and had to listen to guys at work who were old enough to be my father or grandfather and they told me what they want to put and where. That’s not only sexual harassment but pedophillia. If the girls ingored them, the guys laughed. If we said something, it was even worst. Even today, a women cannot walk by a construction site witouth guys whistle or touch their private parts. In university I had a professor who touched his package every time he was alone with female students. Once he grabbed my hands and made me touch him. I stopped attending his class. Regardless, I still believed in true love and I hoped that one day I will meet the one. I was dating with a guy and found out that he was cheating on me. When I confronted him he told me that “there are lots of holes out thereh he didn’t plugged in” so he cannot be in an exclusive relationship. Another guy broke up with me because I wasn’t a virgin when we met. He wasn’t either but that was ok. Later on I moved to Canada. Not a big difference. Here I was raped. So, some of you might think I am bitter. Perhaps I am. Is there anyone who says I shouldn’t be? So, sweet 16 years old, if you want to convence me that there are nice guys out there, bring it on!! REPLY 492. FedeNovember 20, 2011 at 10:09 PM # Suade, practice your reading comprehension some more before you comment. Your point that men are not born to be little Lord Fauntleroys, but rather become that way because of how they are raised is exactly the point radical feminists have been making for decades. Hello! Yes, men are turned into the insufferable, self-inflating, woman-hating pigs they generally are by the patriarchy. They are not born that way, they are not inevitably that way, and if we really believed that they were, why would we allow any males to survive infancy? REPLY 493. SugarpussNovember 21, 2011 at 1:18 AM # Fede said: They are not born that way[…] Well, I think that depends on the individual. There’s no question that biology plays some role in human behavior. For instance; I’ve never been a particularly affectionate person, but this is in complete contrast to the typical programming women receive. There’s no doubt that females are socialized to be emotionally needy & vulnerable, and these are two attributes that do not describe me at all. What I’m trying to say is…in the case of this particular personality trait, my nature overrules my nurture. I think the degree to which one is affected by socialization depends on how easily programmable they are (this applies more to men than women, because women are basically forced to comply in one way or another). Some men are born killers & rapists…others are made. That’s how I see it. REPLY 494. FedeNovember 21, 2011 at 1:43 PM # Oh yes, Sugarpuss, I completely agree. What I should have said is that to be born male is not necessarily to be born a killer/rapist/a despicable Lord Fauntleroy-type woman-hater. Because of his reading problems, Suade seemed to have gotten the farfetched impression that this was the RadFem stance. Some men are born with a tendency towards hateful stupidity, for sure. (Some women too, for that matter, but their selfishness is not encouraged by patriarchal society, so they usually turn out differently). My take is that patriarchy applauds and exacerbates the worst potential of males, effectively making them stupid and hateful to a far greater degree than they might otherwise have been. This is not to say that individual men could not turn out stupid and hateful in a non-patriarchal world. Of course they could. The conditioning towards hateful stupidity is furthermore not always successful; hence the occasional unicorn male who actually turns out to be a decent person. So yeah, I too believe that biology absolutely plays a role in shaping the individual. I just think it’s something infinitely more complex than can be summed up with the insane idea of gender that is currently so popular. REPLY 495. HecateNovember 22, 2011 at 4:18 PM # “a despicable Lord Fauntleroy-type woman-hater.” Yes I’ve known a couple of those! Not to take this off-topic, but my last manager at a high tech company (which shall forever be known as Crapple, if I have anything to do with it) was the dangerously deceptive ‘nice guy’ type. My co-workers disagreed with me when I said he was “polite, yes, but NOT nice.” They finally saw my point when he got his little curly-haired locks in a frizz over the fact that I was never going to consider him date-worthy. Why would I?! Who dates their manager? If you want to picture this guy, he looked a bit like Mordred’s son (when he was younger) in that film Excalibur from the 80s. Yeah, exactly the ‘Little Lord Fauntleroy’ of every gal’s nightmares. He took his ultimate revenge by making sure I remained a Permatemp there with no benefits for years, then laid me off, knowing I would not qualify for unemployment insurance. He did this precisely when he finally found some dumb, willing victim from Match.com to marry him. I just know my firing was all to do with the aforementioned scenario, which is one good example as to why the workplace remains such a ridiculously inequitable environment for womyn. And last but not least, he lacked even the courage to look me in the eye when he disposed of me… REPLY 496. HecateNovember 22, 2011 at 4:31 PM # Oh btw, I thought this article might be of interest: http://www.truth-out.org/julie-doucet-its-amazing-im-able-make- living/1321972906 REPLY 497. SugarpussNovember 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM # Hecate said: […] he looked a bit like Mordred’s son (when he was younger) in that film Excalibur […] Actually, the mother’s name was Morgana (Morgan LeFay), and the boy’s name was Mordred. One of my favorite movies, btw. :) But yeah, that kid was creepy looking. I’m having a hard time picturing that in adult form. LOL REPLY 498. LeilaNovember 24, 2011 at 6:47 PM # As much as I should be joining our little ‘female conference’here, I choose NOT to. Yes I do agree that men do ‘control’ our world and somewhat degrade women. I also do understand that we do go through a lot in life and have been suppressed from flourishing in the past and at times today. It is okay to be bitter……but that doesn’t really give a reason to HATE… ..many radical feminists would agree to a world of just women….. ‘utopia’…. In reality, the fact would remain that world then would be a ‘dystopian’ instead…and that some women would want to take the ‘control’ role….some women would want to go on war, some women would want degrade other women because of their background (black, white, fat, thin, muslim, jewish)…. The point is..in this competitive world, .we are always going find differences among ourselves…….most Men maybe physically stronger than some women…and because of that reason…they find a difference and act upon it by playing ‘superior’ It is most definitely NOT the case…and I strongly disagree from that aspect…..I am a woman and independent…..I wouldn’t let a man put me down…in the name of being ‘might man’ and making the ‘weak woman’ because as an individual from our home world…..I am smarter than that and always prove I stand for our earthly home……..I dont hate. ….in fact I care less…because there’s nothing to care…..why should I have a problem with something that a man decided to make up…to me its just a childish behaviour…that I dont necessarily have to tolerate but rather understand.. REPLY o OutsideLookingOverNovember 24, 2011 at 8:58 PM # @Suade who said “Reading over this page makes me wonder… What men have you all been with during your lives to make you hate them so?”… I suggest reading this article: http://bigthink.com/ideas/39234 It just might offer a clue. Perhaps. I say ‘perhaps’ because that assumes that you genuinely want to know and aren’t just petulantly echoing all the other “but I’m a *nice* guy” brain-deads who have come in here endeavouring to make all men look like the jerks we are… and succeeding. Just perhaps you might see what the life of a woman is like from her perspective, well, one aspect of it, anyway, in that article. How do you spell vigilance, Suade? Or is that even a word you need to know? Hecate and SugarPuss and Menudo and Fede have clarified things for you sufficiently *IF* you weren’t just reading defensively with that sad “Not ME!” emotional response that really disables us and erodes any sense of responsibility. Not Me? I hated my father for a number of reasons, not least of which was how he treated my mother and us kids. And it wasn’t till I realised that I’d involutarily learned those (HIS!) behaviours and actively started to purge the emotions and insecurities that prompted them that I actually became free of them. I’m sure at 16 you’re a “Nice Guy”. Beware of that “Nice Guy”. REPLY o SugarpussNovember 25, 2011 at 1:25 PM # Leila said As much as I should be joining our little ‘female conference’here, I choose NOT to. Ummm…If you had chose not to, you wouldn’t have even bothered to post. Troll much? […] somewhat degrade women […] Somewhat? Somewhat? SOMEWHAT?! What distant fantasyworld areyou living in? There’s an elephant named Misogyny standing in the middle of your living room, demanding peanuts. And every time you post crap like this, you’re feeding him. It is okay to be bitter……but that doesn’t really give a reason to HATE… Who are you to tell other women how they should feel? Just because you’ve chosen to suck it up and bury your emotions, that doesn’t mean others should follow your example. That type of anger-stuffing only results in outbursts of an extreme nature. If it ‘bothers’ you to see other women venting their frustrations regarding this shitty male-dominated world, don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. I am a woman and independent…..I wouldn’t let a man put me down…in the name of being ‘might man’ and making the ‘weak woman’ […] Cynthia Rothrock? REPLY 499. HecateNovember 25, 2011 at 10:53 AM # Thanks for the correction Sugarpuss! It’s been a while since I’ve seen the film. But yeah, it’s the best description I could think of in terms of looks and behavior of my ex boss. And I’d still rather date Mordred than him :D REPLY 500. FedeNovember 25, 2011 at 11:23 AM # Leila sez: our little ‘female conference’ I sez: Really? You are going to be that condescending? You do realise that when you try to belittle feminist gatherings, you yourself are included in the group you undermine – that is, if you really are a woman as you claim. Your rambling, largely unintelligible comment, the point of which would seem to be “rah, rah, sexism only happens on the individual level, rah, rah” annoys and saddens me. REPLY 501. lizorNovember 25, 2011 at 12:17 PM # Yeah, “Leila” is as delightful as a swarm of black flies. All that certainty about the “reality” and “fact” of a future of women only – and the infantile presumption that feminism is about a world without men. I can’t believe I am even acknowledging his/her drivel. Certain of these trolls just get to me some days, I guess. REPLY 502. OutsideLookingOverNovember 25, 2011 at 1:52 PM # @ Leila: mAndrea said it best… You might enjoy my all time favorite quote, which is by TheBewilderness: This is a cheap transparent trick to change the subject from the behavior of men, to the feelings of women. Every time you hear the term hate used in this fashion it is always a cheapass way to change the subject. Serious people do not like to be manipulated in the style of political operatives. Men rape women. Why do you hate men. Porn hurts women. Why do you hate sex. Do you see the shift from the behavior of the perp to the feelings of the victim? You can see it any time you like on the cable news networks, where that crap passes for discussion. It does not pass here. END quote. Isn’t that fabulous? She thinks it sounds too rude. Of course I love it. lol Analyzing men as a class becomes hating men. Wanting to end the oppression of females becomes hating men. Being angry at men because they oppress women becomes hating men for no reason. Saying men as a class oppress those they claim to love becomes hating some random reader’s husband and gosh she is personally offended. REPLY 503. HecateNovember 27, 2011 at 11:17 PM # Indeed, Sugarpuss. Wouldn’t men just love it if women suddenly started brushing off degrading experiences and dropping them in the ‘somewhat’ box. “Yes, I was a victim of domestic violence, but was only ‘somewhat’ bruised and battered.” “Of course, you understand, I was a porn actress, but my innards were only ‘somewhat’ torn.” Wow. If minimizing female experience and trauma isn’t a tool of the patriarchy, I don’t know what is. REPLY 504. SugarpussNovember 28, 2011 at 9:56 AM # Hecate said: Indeed, Sugarpuss. Wouldn’t men just love it if women suddenly started brushing off degrading experiences and dropping them in the ‘somewhat’ box. Unfortunately, a lot of women already do that. But, since men are never quite satisfied, the fact that some women refuse to just brush it off serves as an irritant to them. REPLY 505. HecateNovember 28, 2011 at 12:54 PM # Very true, sadly. And I have seen some women pressure each other into minimizing these experiences as well. REPLY 506. MedunoDecember 7, 2011 at 8:33 PM # I am very dissapointed not only because I had only bad experience with guys but because we (girls) are raised by our parents and we assume that both mom and dad are happy together and because dad is wonderful, marriage must be a happily ever after. We as little girls waiting for the prince to come only to find out that the prince is a bit defected. The prince is arrogant, ignorant, leaves his socks on the floor, etc. Happily ever after my ass. Excuse my language. REPLY 507. thepleasureisallmineDecember 9, 2011 at 2:03 PM # I love you and this site. I am sick of men and these awful brainwashed women who act as minions to them, perpetuating a misogynistic agenda, instead of standing firm with other women to actually effect some change. REPLY 508. HecateDecember 9, 2011 at 3:24 PM # An important Andrea Dworkin speech: This is pretty much the only space in which I feel safe posting radfem links. So I am taking advantage of it :) I like the points in this speech, and I agree with every one of them. The ‘pimp’ comments may be slightly outdated, as womyn today can still easily fall into the prostitution/ subservient role even in the absence of such a figure. And I would like to see more discussion on the disgusting antics womyn endure from men in regular work. Plenty of smart females remain tapped in office or other work in which they are expected to sit pretty in ‘coffee, tea or me’ 50s mode. REPLY 509. HecateDecember 9, 2011 at 3:34 PM # Sorry, I meant to say ‘remain trapped.’ :D Also, by commenting on womyn in regular work, I am not implying that I consider prostitution legitimate work as well. It can never be. And I think Andrea makes that point beautifully. REPLY 510. MatthewDecember 9, 2011 at 6:34 PM # You may disregard my comment, but as an 18 year old, Asexual male, I just want to state that not all males are the same. I follow a balanced diet with vigorous exercise, but that’s to maintain my health. I don’t enjoy sports, and the Alpha-male mentality can be explained through basic Biology. I’ve made an attempt to understand why you hate all men, and to be frank, you’ve made a myriad of valid points, and I would try to find common ground with women who hate men, but they regularly deny me this. REPLY 511. HecateDecember 10, 2011 at 12:49 PM # “I’ve made an attempt to understand why you hate all men…” Well, that’s precisely the point. Anyone on the entitled side of the fence (even those who self-identify as ‘meek’), simply cannot understand. And that lack of understanding translates into the oppressor accusing the oppressed of being ‘hateful,’ when, as Andrea Dworkin has stated, sometimes hate and anger are the only ‘crutches’ women manage to grip onto in order to stumble on through the minefields they are forced to navigate. Even she says they are not the ideal tools. But they are all some women have and indeed sometimes the only means of survival. REPLY 512. ismeDecember 11, 2011 at 3:47 AM # “Anyone on the entitled side of the fence (even those who self-identify as ‘meek’), simply cannot understand. And that lack of understanding translates into the oppressor accusing the oppressed of being ‘hateful,” Well, though there is, of course, alot they can’t understand, IMHO, there’s alot that they choose not to. Understanding that people are being oppressed, and that it’s a bad thing, isn’t that difficult unless it’s deliberately made so by people who don’t want to. It’s not necessary to understand a problem to not dismiss it, or to refrain from condemning people for trying to draw attention to it, all that’s needed is to understand that it exists. REPLY 513. MatthewDecember 11, 2011 at 8:30 PM # Well, seeing as I’m only an 18 year old male, I do not understand the difficulties and hardships associated with being a female. I do try my best to understand what they endure, since I do realize the discrepancy, in terms of treatment between the genders, but I’m still a male. I don’t think I’m deserving of such virulent hatred, since in my own personal experience, I’ve never degraded anybody due to their gender, and I look down upon those that do. Yes, the behaviors and sexist beliefs that are typically observed in men ARE irritating and irrational, but I, on a personal level, am completely against such practices. Once more, and I believe this bears repeating, I’m Asexual, so that may be contributory. REPLY 514. MatthewDecember 11, 2011 at 8:32 PM # But, if you do hate me, I suppose that’s fine. REPLY 515. SugarpussDecember 12, 2011 at 4:51 AM # @Hecate: Dworkin’s speech is awesomeness. She was truly the ultimate rebel; not a single conformist bone in her body. Men despise(ed) her for her complete & utter refusal to adhere to the fuckability mandate, and because of her unique ability to so eloquently describe the ugly truths of this misogynistic society. To this day, the best criticism that her detractors can come up with is alwayssomething in relation to her appearance. They break their own “logical fallacy” rules…and in doing so, they merely reaffirm RadFem theory: Women are viewed as nothing more than interactive blow-up dolls, and any woman who doesn’t devote all of her spare time & energy to the pursuit of physical “perfection”, for the sole purpose of stimulating male erectile tissue, is a waste of oxygen.Nevermind the fact that most of these critics would certainly never be mistaken as a Brad Pitt doppelganger. But, of course, men are allowed the privilege to reject conventional standards of attractiveness…and make a statement on YouTube without ever receiving so much as one snide comment regarding their unkempt hair, pimply face, man- boobs, etc. REPLY 516. FedeDecember 12, 2011 at 11:17 AM # Sigh. Not again. Irritating? Men’s misogyny is “irritating”? The hateful oppression of half the human race is “irritating”? Only to someone who is not at the receiving end of it and never will be. You “suppose that’s fine”, if we hate you? Why thank you kindly, Master, for your permission. You bet I hate you, as I naturally hate any arsewipe who has the audacity to show his stupid self in a feminist forum, trying to guilt-trip women into wasting their time on him, as if women’s oppression at the hands of men were not as important as it is to recognise that HE is not to blame because HE is different and HE does not appreciate being lumped together with the bad men. Guess what, Matthew? Thinking you have a right to waste our time with that MAKES you one of the bad men. REPLY 517. HecateDecember 12, 2011 at 3:05 PM # Yes, absolutely Sugarpuss. I think Andrea was an incredibly brave soul. And most of the retorts men come up with regarding her argument are indeed pretty weak sauce. We have had some pretty fugly male politicians/ CEOs what have you and when are their looks ever commented on? I saw a comment somewhere on YouTube about the ‘awesomeness’ of Andrea’s overalls too, and had to chuckle. They are, actually! Might as well be comfy, I say. I feel the same way about shoes, and often lament the dearth of good, solid boots for women in the marketplace. Doc Martens are sort of ok, but I’d like more choice. Hey men, call me a bull dyke or whatever, but I walk a hell of a lot, so that’s really exactly what I need, just for practical purposes. And yes, sometimes it is indeed too cold in SF to wear trainers for my longer walks… @Fede – I know, men excel at the guilt trip. And they say mothers have the lead in that arena! No wonder guilt is used so expertly as a tool in mainstream religions. Gnarly old patriarchs whining ad nauseum were the principle founders of them, after all. REPLY 518. SugarpussDecember 12, 2011 at 5:01 PM # LMAO! I was gonna lay into Matthew, but I see Fede has already done an excellent job of that. :D REPLY 519. BoadieDecember 13, 2011 at 1:31 AM # I agree with you. And you know what? Not only do I hate men, but I also tried hard–really really fucking hard–to NOT hate men. But they make it impossible. You constantly give them the benefit of the doubt. You give them another chance over and over and over again. You do everything you can to try to extend your goodwill: “No, I really don’t hate you, I just want you to treat me like a human being. Won’t you please treat me like a human being? I really do like you. I swear. In fact, I want to make life better for you too. Really I do. I just want you to stop treating me like a non-human object put on this earth for men to beat, rape and abuse. Can you please stop treating me that way? Please? Could you please do something about the billions of women who are suffering? I don’t hate you. I swear. I swear. I just want your kind to stop killing my kind. If we ask you nicely, will you please stop killing us? Look, I really don’t hate you. I’ll even rub your dick for you. I just want to rub you and make you feel good. I just your kind kind to stop killing my kind. Please? Would you please stop killing us?” Fuck it. I’m sick of that. All of my begging and pleading and bending over backwards to prove that I don’t hate men has garnered ZERO sympathy from them. When I post something on Facebook about how a man excused the sexual abuse and raping of women within the porn industry and told us all to “STFU,” and only ONE man comes to say something in women’s defense, I know that men are doing FUCK ALL to try to help women. Yet, I can post something about 9/11 being an job and get 30 “likes” a long thread of doods saying “right on, right on!” Because men don’t give a SHIT about women or anything that’s happening to women. We have more animal shelters than battered women’s sheltered. Men who are vegan sit there and jack off to videos of porn (read: women being raped) because they’re so “humanitarian” and “progressive.” Fuck men. Fuck all men. Men have proven again and again that they don’t give a flying rat’s ass about women. Men can hardly be bothered to lift a finger to help women. Men make it impossible to NOT hate them. Even if you really, really, really WANT to not hate them, you can’t, because they will MAKE you hate them. They will continue to be self-entitled, insensitive pricks who either argue against you or sit there in stone cold silence as women are beaten, raped and killed until you are finally driven to the point of hating them, because no matter how many chances you give them to hear the clarion call and actually act like human beings, they will never stop up the plate. Ever. Yes, that’s right. I hate men. I hate men because virtually all men are either monsters who abuse women or monsters who sit there in silence while women are being abused by other men, leaving us to fend for ourselves while smugly enjoying their privilege. Yes. I admit it. I hate men. I hate the people who beat, rape and abuse women. I hate the people who stand by and do nothing, say nothing, while women are being beaten, raped and abused. So now that I’ve admitted it, now maybe feminism get on with the business of restoring women’s humanity without wasting 99.99 percent of our time and energy trying to prove to all of you privileged ass fuckers that we don’t hate you. Now, the onus of proof is on YOU. What are you going to do to help women? REPLY o ChristinaDecember 16, 2011 at 9:14 AM # Man-hating is about hating all the things men are continuously doing to women, be it rape, sexual, physical or verbal abuse, pornography, sexual harassment as well as everything else that goes with male domination. So instead of apologising for been a man-hater, be proud of it and let all these male horrors inspire you to become even bigger man-haters REPLY * Nine DeuceDecember 16, 2011 at 10:00 AM # Sounds good to me. REPLY 520. ismeDecember 13, 2011 at 10:36 AM # “I, on a personal level, am completely against such practices.” If you say so. An awful lot of people say so. Often, the word “but” appears somewhere. Being opposed to prejudice isn’t something you just say, or even something you put a small amount of effort into. It’s something you have to work long and hard at. Having grown up in this culture, I can confidentially say that I’m totally, utterly wrong about a number of important issues to do with inequality, that I’ve just assumed things that I’ve never questioned, or worse, avoided questioning. I will be, by word or deed, promoting inequality in some form at some time soonish, and I won’t know about it until possibly several years until it’s bludgeoned into me beyond my ability to ignore. I can do my best to read and listen to people who know much more than me, and hope to understand, but I there are so many mistakes I must be making. Hopefully because I don’t know any better (which is little to no comfort to those on the receiving end), possibly because I refuse to know any better. REPLY 521. FedeDecember 13, 2011 at 12:42 PM # @Sugarpuss: Thank you. ;) @Boadie: that was perfectly beautiful. Now, the onus of proof is on YOU. What are you going to do to help women? That is indeed the question. The Matthews of the world will no doubt answer that they feel no obligation to help women since we have turned our anger on them. But seeing as they weren’t helping us before, the withdrawal of their favour is of exactly zero consequence. REPLY 522. gracemargaretDecember 13, 2011 at 7:54 PM # @Boadie, I hear you. I’ve done the same thing my entire life and nothing has changed. I naively thougth if you just show the harm done to women, just prove that it happens, people will finally understand and care. They don’t. I treat men like brothers and I’ve always given the benefit of the doubt and have gotten nothing but contempt in return. I know a lot of women say it’s not our responsibility to teach men but I’ve always ignored that and tried anyway. With rare exception this has never worked. I don’t hate men for being male, but I can’t stand bullies and abusers who hide behind their maleness or the fact that a cute girl was mean to them once in high school as an excuse or justifications to be violent and abusive. But I’m really past the point of caring, I’m sick of the threats and seeing that gleeful smirk when they see the pain and suffering and fear they cause and the callous indifference in the supposed “progressive”, sensitive men. Men hate us, enjoy hurting and humiliating us emotionally and physically. They maturbate to it. It’s in all their art and entertainment and religions and sciences. I’m just done with it and all the whiney little boys who turn it around on us and act like pointing it out is worse that the rape and terrorism that is inflicted om women globally on a daily basis REPLY 523. MedunoDecember 16, 2011 at 9:12 PM # Hi Boadie. Have we met before? We must have because you know me too well. lol You were talking about me right? I desperately tried to make myself believe that I don’t hate men and gave them another chance, and another and another. And one more, just more last chance. But guess what? They screwed up again!! And what even worst is that they made me feel guilty. I would like to move to a “no men – no bullshit” island. Can I? Pleeease! REPLY 524. AdiDecember 20, 2011 at 2:30 AM # This is the message that boys grow up with today. Kind of makes it self- fulfilling, don’t you think? I mean, if you really did want to make things better (instead of just making yourself look better relative to others), you’d not hate but try to find solutions to the problems facing modern society. If the classic feminist argument that men and women are fundamentally the same and only differ through socialization is true, then all men’s failures must be caused by society’s treatment of them. Hence, if you want men to not be as bad as you think they are, then you must find ways to help them be better. Just hating them will only make things worse. Just as beating a problem child will make it a bigger problem child. REPLY o OutsideLookingOverDecember 20, 2011 at 2:53 PM # “Hence, if you want men to not be as bad as you think they are, then you must find ways to help them be better.” This statement is fundamentally flawed. Privilege blinds you to that flaw. Can you, however, *guess* what might be wrong with it? It never ceases to amaze me how men can say stuff like this and actually believe it. Boggles the mind. And embarasses the heck out of me, since I’m an XY – humans naturally assume I think this way too. REPLY o SugarpussDecember 20, 2011 at 4:46 PM # Adi said: […]if you want men to not be as bad as you think they are, then you must find ways to help them be better So, once again, it is all of Womankind’s responsibility to clean up a gigantic mess that men created… And to think…these infantile creatures have dubbed themselves as “the superior sex”. Lulz x 1,000,000 PS Go fuck yourself. REPLY 525. FedeDecember 20, 2011 at 1:53 PM # Oh, it’s an old classic! “If you won’t teach us, how can we leeeearn??” *wah wah* Well, Adi, as you can see from Boadie’s and gracemargaret’s comments, they – along with feminists and other oppressed women everywhere – have been trying forever to change men’s behaviour by appealing to their sense of human decency. Problem is that men tend to reward such altruistic work with hateful and often violent misogyny. They don’t consider women fully human, which makes it a little bit difficult for us to make them listen to what we have to say. Feminists did not create the patriarchy, Adi. It is not our job to ‘make men better’. It is men’s responsibility to better themselves. And to actually grow a sense of human decency. Which they need to do before we can appeal to it. See how that works? We do what we can, but men aren’t giving us a helluva lot to work with. And when I say “not giving us a lot to work with”, I of course mean “denigrating, victimising and demonising us at every turn.” We have a right to be angry about that. It is not our anger that got us all in this mess. Our anger is a reaction – a very belated one at that – to the atrocities that we and our sisters have suffered. We can hate the enemies that so many men have proven themselves to be beyond any shred of doubt, while trying to find short- and longterm solutions to the problems ailing society, thank you very much. In fact, getting together and encouraging each other to be angry rather than to give up the fight is an integral part of the struggle against oppression. You see, until women start believing that they have a right to get angry about the injustices done to them, there will never be any challenge to the patriarchy. So raising awareness and suppporting women’s right to fight back IS adressing the problem. So don’t tell us how to do feminism. Our primary goal is and must be reaching women, not men. Most men have made it perfectly clear that they are not our allies in the struggle against injustice. If you think men need to be cuddled some more – as if their senseless entitlement and spoiled-brat-status had not already spoiled them rotten – you go teach men some manners. We’ll be over here working with the people who actually want a revolution. REPLY 526. SugarpussDecember 20, 2011 at 5:26 PM # Oh, and I’d just like to point out that Adi’s idiotic statements are nothing more than generic victim-blaming wrapped in gold foil with a tidy little bow affixed to it. It’s no different than saying “if only women would stop dressing like skanks, there would be no more rape!11!”. Yeah… except 80 year-old women in nursing homes aren’t usually known for their provocative attire. It’s all a power play. Men don’t want to change because, in doing so, they essentially give up that power. In the end, it will be required to take that power from them…by any means necessary. REPLY 527. MedunoDecember 20, 2011 at 9:23 PM # WTF? Adi, you probably didn’t read the whole page. If you did, than you saw my story earlier when I said I was raped. And now you saying I (women) should teach men how to be better??!! So you saying that the rape was my fault because I didn’t teach men to be better??!! What can I say… Only a brainless man can say something like that. I don’t even know what are you doing on this site? Shouldn’t you be out with your friends drinking and talk about how great you are? REPLY 528. tateDecember 21, 2011 at 3:38 AM # Just as beating a problem child will make it a bigger problem child. Hmmm… Is Adi saying men are just a bunch of bratty children and should be treated as such? REPLY 529. ismeDecember 21, 2011 at 11:39 AM # The one, last right that oppressors can never truly take away is the right to be angry. Having said that, they can do a pretty decent job of it. Being calm and reasonable about oppression never actually works, but it looks like it should. And the lies that people tell themselves to justify such things often work on the people they are oppressing. So many times I want to yell “Wake up, pay attention just this once!” to all and sundry. (I also like the idea that you can’t do X (in this case, hate) and do anything at all else at the same time, but the idea of there being a single thing feminism can do at a time nicely suits the idea that it’s a solid monolithic block of spoilsportness, I guess) REPLY 530. lizorDecember 24, 2011 at 9:41 AM # @ Adi Why don’t you shut your infantile piehole, you tiresome, patronizing little prick? REPLY 531. MedunoJanuary 1, 2012 at 5:41 PM # Happy New Year Everybody REPLY 532. sassieQJanuary 10, 2012 at 1:34 PM # Oh my gawd this HAS to be THE funniest (true) stuff I’ve ever seen on the internet. Thanks all you people for totally making my day just now. I hate men too! And I even gave birth to two of them. Trust me, everything I tried to teach them about honoring and respecting women, failed. Why? I think it’s due to the fact that once they were old enough to talk to other young men about women, they do nothing but try to please EACH OTHER…..it’s a losing battle when all men truly care about is how cool they look to each other. What is the logic in that? Are men going to live with and be intimate with each other to have to worry what other men think? Classic example: Remember when you had your bf on the phone and every other time he’s the first one to say “I love you” before hanging up….but THIS time his buddies are around….and he clams up….why?? To show his buds he’s not a wuss. But to the one lady in his life he’s supposed to be worried what SHE thinks…..she gets the cold shoulder and is left to wonder wtf. This is so immature I could puke. One prime example….only one. There are SO many more I don’t have the time to waste describing them all. I don’t know what’s happend to men. I did the best I could with my sons, and they are both jerks I’m sorry to say. Something is about to hit the fan though. REPLY o JessicaHunterMay 29, 2015 at 12:08 AM # Yes, this is true…men care more about pleasing and impressing each other than about being decent. REPLY 533. AlouetteJanuary 11, 2012 at 9:37 AM # Any pitiful, ego bruised men still haunting this thread need not to worry. I’ve read through the comments, and not one woman so far really strikes me as actually hating men despite it being the rational response to their violent enforcement of patriarchy. I mean, really. This very moment some filthy man is out raping a little girl, and women everywhere still can’t bring themselves to hate men, let alone go out in violent retribution, and this has gone on for millennia. Hell, even I don’t really hate men, at least, not as much as I should or for the right reasons—and that’s from someone who can honestly say I’d give my life if it guaranteed men would be annihilated from existence. The scary part is I don’t know if I’d be critical of men at all if I weren’t a lesbian. Really, all I want is for every woman and girl to be truly, unequivocally free. Call me a pessimist, but it just isn’t possible for women to reach their full potential as long as men are on the same planet because, even if we achieved “equality”, even if the oppression were flipped (which is extremely unlikely to happen in itself, but likely to happen before men and women coexist as true equals in my opinion), we’d still be wasting our energy on them for the fact of their living among us or preventing their living among us. Asking that men merely stop raping and murdering us is begging for scraps. We can become something so much better if only we focused on each other and ourselves. I fear no woman will see that potential to a reality if we don’t act this century and finally put our needs and wants first. Female fetuses are already being chemically manipulated in utero to produce more complacent daughters. The window of time is growing shorter by the minute. Someone mentioned that women who “hate” men become separatists, while men who hate women go out and terrorize, rape, and murder us into submission. Well, there’s a good reason for that, a reason so very obvious it pains me that I must state it outright: men need women around in order to live the way they do without literally destroying themselves, but women would be so much better off without men. Although they won’t admit it, all men know this deep down, and that’s exactly why they’ll never leave us alone. Not to mention, it’s one of their reasons for hating us. They can’t accept where they fall on the male hierarchy, so they designate women a subhuman class exempted from any status whatsoever, which artificially raises every man’s status at our expense. It makes perfect sense when you look at it from the male perspective. Just imagine that all you care about is being dominant over as many people as possible no matter the cost to others. (and to your conscience) Now, you’ll say that’s my opinion and dark, cynical one at that, but I ask: how many here would be willing to fight for their liberties until the very end if I happened to be right? If you insist men can change, what will make them change? Or, to paraphrase a commenter on another radfem blog, if men’s very lives were dependent on it, would they change? Sorry, but this woman is convinced men would sooner die than acknowledge our full humanity. Oh well. Let them die. (or we can at least send them back to mars! Heh.) REPLY 534. HecateJanuary 11, 2012 at 12:54 PM # Those are some great points, Alouette. Little thought is given to what you mention concerning male recklessness and their need to have women ‘fix’ the stupid scenarios they get themselves into. If they’d relax those angry egos for one second, they could learn from female wisdom and start repairing their own crap. But I doubt that will ever happen either. Female separatism may help, in the sense that at least they are no longer around if a male is hell-bent on destroying himself and anyone in the vicinity… REPLY 535. sassieQJanuary 12, 2012 at 11:22 AM # I just had to come back today after watching the news this morning. The now infamous image of 3 US Marines urinating on human beings (terrorists or not, not my point) has freshly enraged my soul. What kind of creature thinks to do such a thing? I know a few ANIMALS on this planet do this. And, this is SO not the first time I have seen or heard of such a thing. Many, many times I have. So many I cannot count. This is such a classic example of the mindset of our “modern man”. Don’t even pipe in Mr. MAN with “One bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole bunch”. I ask you this: What difference does it make that there is one good apple in a sack chalk full of foul rotten ones??? Majority rules in most all cases when there isn’t time, much less desire, to pick through the disgusting mess to find that one damn apple that IS edible. I have found that even when you come across that one good one, it is still covered in the filth from it’s surroundings, and cleaning it off takes far too much of MY time. So you see, I am never going to say that ALL men suck, I’m obviously saying that there are SO MANY bad ones, why f-ing bother. Yup, don’t need a man. We have our own money, friends, family, itell, and methods to “work around” sex…..what the hell do we need YOU for. There will never be peace on this subject until enough “good men” actually start standing up to their disgusting friend that they now excuse in order to please him. But now that totally goes against his male instincts to not confront the real issue…..as usual. I won’t hold my breath. REPLY 536. AlouetteJanuary 13, 2012 at 8:10 AM # Thanks, Hectate. Sadly, separatism on a mass level remains a distant dream for now, but, and this is a huge but, a combination emotional and financial pseudo separatism is possible if only women would stop investing so much of their time on men. Even lesbians can be guilty of this, for example, the legally blind woman who supported her deadbeat brother while caring for her ill mother. I’m sure I do it sometimes myself without even realizing it. That’s how brainwashed we are to sacrifice our own wants and resources. I hope you don’t mind my using your vent post to prove my point, sassieQ, but your attitude is exactly what needs to be marketed to straight women. I’d love to see a straight woman with a “single and fabulous forever” type of lifestyle blog. I imagine it would get traffic by linking to (bargain) fashion and celebrity gossip blogs. Fat acceptance looks like another promising avenue to explore as such women are likely frustrated with their dating pool simply for not fitting the P’s current paradigm of attractiveness. Beauty standards, “energy vampirism,” male lack of empathy, and porn use are excellent crossover issues to introduce straight women to feminism. Such a blog wouldn’t be radical, of course, but it would serve its purpose to glamorize a life without a man there regulating one’s time directly. Another thing I have to mention is that, while battered women shelters are invaluable in this culture of male violence, not enough focus is placed on educating women with no skills. Yes, women are far more vulnerable while unemployed and it isn’t always as easy as “get a degree/permit and get a job,” but there are even women on feminist blogs who aren’t in abusive relationships that choose to live with men because they don’t want to give up their standard of living. There’s always healthcare, sales, or real estate. Women who were good at math growing up can teach themselves C+ while their husband is away. If they have relatives who’ll watch the kids, even something like waste management or security could work, not to mention the traditionally “male” trade jobs. I’m not saying it’s easy, but being financially dependent on a man should be a last resort. Women need to reclaim the sense of pride that has been stripped from us. We aren’t incapable of functioning in any part of this system men have created, and we change the male world as we colonize it. REPLY 537. HecateJanuary 13, 2012 at 12:35 PM # Well, we certainly need more women who think as you do, Alouette ;) Regarding separatism, I wonder if it would help women to just throw caution to the wind and jump in the same boat, regardless of orientation, politics, what have you. It would sadden me to think that a united front would be impossible for us. I remember my women’s studies course in college emphasizing the ‘different flavors’ of feminism, and that, for example, a white feminist could never in a million years understand a black one. Or straight feminists could never have a clue what a gay feminist experiences. That made me feel like the battle could never be won. Imagine the women’s retreats we could have if we really were a security and comfort to each other, without quibbling about who has it worse. Even women in so-called ‘powerful’ positions face many of the same personal issues I do. So I see no point in casting them out as irrelevant. Men seem to support each other across rank, which is one reason they have been successful in keeping women down. It’s the reason it bothers me so much when females gossip about one another. The longer they claw at each other, the further diminished any real power or gains they may have had. I agree 100% on the education issue. Even if a woman is educated simply as to what her reproductive rights are from an early age, she’s already going to be ahead in the game. Women know this, deep down. I keep my antenna wide open. Awareness really is power. I think I mentioned this before, but a gal in high school once called me an ‘evil sponge.’ She resented me for my sharp perceptions, but she grudgingly acknowledged the survival value of it. Strange, my class was all girls too, aside from two dorky, aloof dudes. I wish we would use our strength in numbers when we find ourselves in such a situation, but we rarely do. REPLY 538. MedunoJanuary 15, 2012 at 9:23 PM # There was a post not long ago about men picking up woment in the elevator. So I go to work the other day and there was a guy in the elevator with me. I didn’t pay attention, I was half asleep at 7:30 am. But I woke up immediately when the guy grabbed my ass. I told him to get lost (but not in a nice way). He got out on the 2nd floor, I got out on the 4th. Why? Why am I a jerk magnet? Was something on my forehead? Like please grab my ass? I just don’t get it!! SassieQ is right. Rotten apples… REPLY 539. AlouetteJanuary 16, 2012 at 2:48 PM # Why thank you! Heh. I admit I could have gotten ahead of myself a bit with my previous comment. Sanctuaries for women open to all are a wonderful idea, but the fact they don’t exist speaks measures about how far we still have to go. Even if one did exist, I fear the majority would fail to see its appeal with the current lack of feminist awareness. Male solidarity is a byproduct of the deal between “alpha” and “beta” men. The alphas grant sexual access to the women they don’t want in exchange for the beta’s direct policing of women in relationships. All men benefit from this system in that it ensures every man is dominant over every woman. See? Men really don’t care about anyone but themselves after all. (of course, we all knew that here!) Yes, the crab mentality so many women have is especially detrimental when it’s used as proof of our alleged cattiness. Those women still view themselves from a patriarchal perspective, and all women lose no matter how successful under patriarchy. That’s why women still conducted themselves the same way in your class as they would have if there were twenty men instead of two. That raises the question of why this is and how to remedy it? There’s the obvious point I’ve already stressed about financial independence, which I’m still convinced is the key reason women put up with living with men. Then there’s something that results from that financial leverage and keeps women in the cycle of dependence: women not having any identity except in relation to men. In society we are mothers, daughters, or sisters to brothers. We aren’t our own people but half of every race, class, etc. Women will even go so far as to abandon hobbies that don’t include their male partners. If women won’t jump ship to live in all female communities (which most won’t), how do we fix this? Well, we have to cultivate a culture that doesn’t frame things in a patriarchal way. Making your own money isn’t “trying to be a man,” and women aren’t undesirable if they’re single mothers or have opted out of marriage and motherhood entirely. Women who do hold some power and status should volunteer at womens organizations to assure other women they’re not above helping their own, while stay at home mothers shouldn’t masculinize women in the workforce and glorify homemaking as women’s “natural” role. Girls night out is important and not everything women do must be inclusive to men, especially our personal hobbies and interests. A huge obstacle will be getting all women to finally accept that men aren’t going to change for us and straight women to accept the average man is completely undesirable outside of the privilege bestowed unto him, so they will have to share or live as proof that no man is better than a bad man. You mentioned reproductive rights, and that will be one of the hardest battles by far. PIV criticality is great because it exposes how men have erased straight women’s sexuality and replaced it with something that harms them both physically and mentally. (Men are trying to do the same thing to lesbian sexuality now with “scientific” studies that have problematic methodology and incorrect interpretation of their own faulty data or articles about political lesbians as if they’re a representation of all of us.) So very much to do, but I’m lacking on ways to make this all attractive to the majority of women deeply entrenched in patriarchy so that the benefits of female solidarity will be apparent. Any ideas besides glamorizing the single life? REPLY 540. MedunoJanuary 29, 2012 at 4:11 PM # SassieQ, thank you for your comment. You know, I was wondering how many women here are married or have children, pehaps boys and how many of them has a boyfriend at this moment. I also wonder how you ladies handle guys in the everyday life. I am sure everyone has a man in their life in once way or another (brother, brother-in-law, father and male colleagues). That’s clear that I don’t nee man in my life but how about my brother-in- law or my colleagues? They always want to know why I don’t date. If I am honest and tell them what I think about men they will think I am lesbian. Which is not true. Although, just to be clear, I have no problem with lesbians, perhaps my life would be easier that way :) I wonder how do you guys deal with questions like that? Should I lie? REPLY 541. Libra LibranFebruary 17, 2012 at 3:19 PM # Life on this planet is conflict as it is in the universe. Nothing is guaranteed in nature – go watch some nature documentaries and your ideals can be seen to be played out over and over again by primates not unlike our human selves trying to survive. You make some good points about men and women but they will forever be just that in a planet where conflict = survival. REPLY 542. lizorFebruary 18, 2012 at 11:23 AM # O.F.F.S., Libra: you recommend people watch TV to learn about nature? Don’t you see a bit of irony there? And do you have the first notion of what it takes to get programming on the tube? Rule number one is any and all narratives that make it to broadcast must be P compliant. Nature shows are anthropomorphic orgies of projection and social engineering. Even the lauded BBC “Planet Earth” series is a tarted up fantasy that has little to do with the actualities of natural processes. Sorry, but you point is a major fail. REPLY 543. candleFebruary 23, 2012 at 4:25 PM # Another awesome post. I am glad I found this site. Well, “glad” in the sense that “I don’t want to live on this miserable planet as part of the male asshole problem anymore” sense of the term. But, you know. REPLY 544. Libra LibranFebruary 24, 2012 at 4:43 AM # Hi Lizor. I liked your awesome response very much. Fail is irrelevant when you provide such wonderful insights in response to a precursor as bad as mine. In think you may have meant to say anthropocentric but I will seek your judgement on that. Thank you for helping me to learn. REPLY 545. lizorFebruary 24, 2012 at 10:32 AM # @ Libra. Actually, anthropomorphic is the projection of human characteristics onto the non-human. Like that new doc narrated by Paul Newman “about a Meerkat named Josh (or something like that) and his brave struggle to protect his family”. Amazing footage of adorably people-ish creatures, but – ICK with the music and narration and concocted narratives through the editing. Anthropomorphism would be a symptom of anthropocentrism. It’s all deeply problematic when it comes to conservation and smart management in the real world. This is a pet peeve of mine obviously. In action moronic groups like PETA all the way up to supposedly noble groups like Greenpeace end up pulling traditional users off the land by painting them as evil for killing pretty animals. The end games works extremely well for oil and mineral multi-nationals as there is no one there with a direct investment in defending the eco-system other than folks who live far away, but want to keep it pretty for their leisure time. Rant done. Cheerio. REPLY 546. FSTFebruary 25, 2012 at 8:02 PM # So, instead of trying to fix men, why not simply eliminate the male gender through sex-selective abortion? With artificial sperm not being too far in the future, surely the human race could survive without males, could it not? Would this not be a more efficient method than trying to change the male attitude? Men are inherently violent anyway. Elimination is a much more effective tool than trying to fix something that cannot be fixed. REPLY 547. i_love_vinegarFebruary 27, 2012 at 11:06 AM # I am 22 and thought men were great since I was 14 up-until this past year. I guess now that I am a grown woman, I have realized the truth. Of course what follows does not apply to all men, but it seems there are too many weeds to dig through to reach the flowers. So nice men — please don’t get offended — the world could use more of you. Most men will pretend to have a crush, when only trying to hook-up When they realize you aren’t going to make out or jump into bed with them, they disappear They say they would love a girl who: -knows how to cook/bake -plays video games/watches sports/action/horror movies -watches anime/read comics -collects action figures -likes sports -plays guitar -gives massages -is sweet But then they go for girls who either a) act like spoiled children b) act like angry moms And of course they go for the women who will yell at the for playing video games and watching “the game.” The greatest thing is when a man pursues you for weeks/months on end, but when you show some interest in him back, he’s nowhere to be found. Then there is the other thing you always hear about where “men want a quiet girl.” and “men don’t play games,” and of course, “men don’t like drama.” Ha! So then why do men always chase after the loud mouth who is always playing games and gossiping? Why is it that men are always playing games with women and starting drama? I’ve met more drama kings than drama queens, and had more games played on me by men than women. Here is one more thing I hate about men: They supposedly don’t want a woman who is actually self-sufficient and able to care for herself. What their actions say they actually want, however, is a woman who is arrogant and all talk (or shall i say yell), but in the end is too lazy to take care of herself. Gawd forbid if a woman is highly educated and well-traveled — they wouldn’t want a woman who is actually *gasp* successful. Nope! I spend my entire life with each day aimed at improving myself. I spend years with bleeding fingers learning flamenco guitar, improving my appearance to be a “hot gamer/geek,” slave away at a hot stove learning how to make meals such as Eggs Benedict and foods from around the world. I research giving massages for months, practice Street Fighter for half a year near-daily. I learn multiple languages, study abroad in high school and now in college. I major in International Business, minor in Economics and Japanese. I learn empathy and not to be jealous of other girls. I save injured animals off the street and nurse them back to health. Learn to draw and write poetry. Even took up dance! I grew up dedicating myself to becoming a good, well-rounded individual. Then guys take advantage of my kindness and if I confront them the only answer they have? Is it their fault? Nope, not at all — it’s mine. For what? Being too nice! I’m from Northern California. I currently live in Japan. Everybody tells me I seem like a Japanese girl because I’m petite, sweet, respectful, and quiet. I thought that was supposed to be a good thing! If I were a man, I’d be a great catch I’m guessing. Take a girl out to dinner, compliment her on her looks and personality, bake her cookies and light candles, serenade her with my guitar, and then a long massage. I would also listen to her thoughts, surprise her with gifts “just because,” make sure she is happy… <– I'm not holding men to this expectation btw. I am simply stating why I would be the "perfect man." I could go on about more personal experiences (Of course, like many here, I've been sexually molested and stalked numerous times. Also victim to domestic violence. Again all of this is supposed to be my fault though. I was too nice, remember?) Anyway, sorry this is such a long post. Really needed to get this off my chest — thank you for giving me and others a place to do so. All the best to everyone here. REPLY 548. fdasfasdMarch 1, 2012 at 12:38 AM # It’s obvious that men are way more privileged than women, that women have to deal with so much shit that they shouldn’t have too. But do you seriously think writing of 99 percent of men is the solution? Im a native american male and i’ve seen how my family is stuck on reservations, are alcoholics, and have a shit life. We’ve obviously been repressed, murdered, screwed over-and all so people like you are able to post on the internet. But i don’t fucking hate all white people. Theres no logic to that. You’re never going to get anywhere if you keep thinking this way. Im a radical feminist male and the feelings of hate i have for the sexist men there are out there are huge. But this isn’t the answer. Fuck i’ve seen so much of this in radical communities it just all seems the same. Progress will never happen with shit like this. Why would a man want to check his privelage and help a woman feel like another human being when that woman is unwilling to even look at the man without preconceived disgust? REPLY 549. SicOFthemMarch 3, 2012 at 7:39 PM # You are an AWESOME writer. Totally enjoyed this. You have a new fan and thank you, thank you, for somewhere to vent my own feelings about MALEness and how it has GOT to change. REPLY 550. gracemargaretMarch 11, 2012 at 3:17 PM # @fdasfasd When you stand up for Native rights, do you *constantly* have to explain and reassure everyone that you don’t hate white people? For even the most basic issues that you would think anyone with even the smallest sense of decency would support, do you get accused of hating white people? As a woman you get this all the time. Seriously, for even the tamest things, like saying a woman should have the right to not be paid less than a man on the job simply because she’s a woman, you will be accused of being a raving man-hater. It’s so ridiculous and so draining to constantly have preface everything with “I don’t hate men” before every sentence when talking about women’s basic human rights. If you read the OP, I think she’s saying, fine..you think I hate men, OK, whatever. But it’s obvious she’s talking about macho behavior, not actually just being born with a penis. I know I can’t speak for ever single person who’s posted here, but I do not believe any of us actually hate men. We hate sexism, we hate that the mainstream definition of being a “real” man is someone who would probably meet most of the qualifications for being a sociopath, at least when it comes to women. A lot of women here are survivors of some horrific abuse, and on top of that have had to deal with friends, family, and the media telling them basically it was all their fault, that they deserved the violence. So for the BILLIONTH time, I don’t hate men. Happy? REPLY 551. themov23March 11, 2012 at 9:02 PM # I have to say I agree with this blog 100%. I hate men, I do not just hate sexism, I hate most men down to every last detail about them. One sure way to piss me off is to destroy my tranquility by letting a group of obnoxious large dumb-ass men into a room. I’m glad you admitted your hatred for them, it inspires me to do so as well. REPLY 552. HecateMarch 11, 2012 at 11:08 PM # The last part of your comment resonated with me, gracemargaret. I wish I could say that it was only men who have tried to keep me down, subdued and silenced. Unfortunately, at least in my case, women had a big part in internalizing the poison of the patriarchal message. And that is what troubles me the most. I was trying to have a mature discussion with my mother recently, for example, asking her once again why she felt so justified in moving me and my sister (we were 7 and 3, respectively) in with her father who sexually abused her. Instead of getting some real answers from her, it turned into some sick contest as to who suffered the most. She accused me of having some ‘real boundary issues’ that she feels I have not addressed. I responded that that’s a bit of a challenge when your grandfather violated you at the tender age of seven. She quipped that she was ‘raped by him at 5.’ Well, so?! What was her point there? I wasn’t even around when that happened to her, and I think that was an incredibly childish way for her to deal with the whole issue. It was also completely lacking in empathy for what she allowed to happen to me. We have to own our experiences as women, and admit when we are co- conspirators with those we say we hate, or at least do something to stop perpetuating behaviors we hate. Another example is genital mutilation, and the mothers/ grandmothers who hold their daughters down while the procedure is taking place. While it is deeply disturbing that so many females just take the cowardly way out and go along with whatever the men are doing (or worse) there are hopefully also those who dare to say ‘no’ to the status quo and end a vicious and unnecessary cycle of suffering. REPLY 553. gracemargaretMarch 11, 2012 at 11:16 PM # @themov23 I can understand women feeling anger towards most men and wanting to write them off completely, but I really don’t believe in making sweeping generalizations. I don’t know, maybe you mean you find men aesthetically unappealing, and that’s your preference. But you did say you don’t just hate sexism. Do we really want to start sounding like asshole “men’s rights” activists? I know it’s different, they really hate women, especially feminists, and call for actual violence against us. People say that radical feminists are no better than MRAs, which I completely disagree with. I know women don’t have the institutional power to be the “reverse sexists” or “misandrists” they accuse us of being, but unless you really believe male violence is a biological inevitability, is it really a good idea to stoop to that level at all? Malcom X used to call white people “devils”, and in that context I understood why and didn’t feel offended by it as a white person, but he eventually realized it was not the right way to go. I also completely understand why a lot of women say similar things and the context of it, but don’t you think we need to get past that now? I recommend reading: “Biological Superiority: The World’s Most Dangerous and Deadly Idea” by Andrea Dworkin: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIID.html Actually, if you are a man, read it anyway. REPLY 554. lizorMarch 12, 2012 at 6:36 AM # Oh Hecate, I feel for you. Pointing to the lowest common denominator seems to be a default tactic for shrugging off responsibility: ‘Don’t “complain” about rape stats in the west – look at the Congo! You should be grateful!’ It’s nothing short of a total mind f**k. I am so sorry you are getting this from your own mother and that she in turn is so damaged that you can’t reach her. Sending you good healing vibes… Gracemargaret, you are so spot on as usual. REPLY 555. HecateMarch 12, 2012 at 10:12 AM # Thank you for your sympathy lizor :) Yes, it’s a tactic I am all to familiar with, unfortunately. So I vow to never do the same, or at least catch myself if I feel I’m about to. Good healing vibes are definitely what I have always sensed from you, ND and most of the other contributors here, and for that I am deeply grateful. REPLY 556. GatzbyMarch 29, 2012 at 3:00 AM # I think women should hate men. It’s a perfectly reasonable attitude. This of course, coming from a heterosexual male’s view. Honestly, using only my imagination and placing myself in the opposite sexes shoes, I think I would hate men as well. Being controlled. Used as a sexual tool. Less natural physical ability. Manipulated and turned against each other. I’ll definitely tell you there is an imbalance in power. (Although it’s obvious) But as long as I’m on this side of the genetic split, I can’t really pity much. But that’s exactly it. It’s genetic. It was a genetic coin toss that you happen to lose. Just like male Black Widows took a coin toss they also happen to lose. When you say you hate men, you’re hating a gene. It’s justifiable, but it still is stupid. Hate men. Despise them. Hate the patriarchal primates we evolved from. Hate the cavemen who fought over cavewomen like genetic prizes, hate when men made gods after themselves and made societies for themselves. Because if anything, it wasn’t the men of today that started it all, it was the monkeys we all evolved from. Could it of been another way? Couldn’t cave-women have had equality? Not if we were to be evolutionarily efficient. History HAD to be this way, two leaders in a family was simply inefficient. The physically powerful man had to play his role to fight of wolves or whatever shit they killed back then. But we don’t do that anymore, we fight with our minds more than with our weapons. Society is (hopefully) becoming more civilized. Yet men like me still have the hegemony. Should we just give up our reigns like that? HAHA, no. I’m sorry to say this but power is addicting. I don’t hate women. I mean, did the 19th century capitalists hate the proletariat? No, because they loved exploiting them. The same with men. Do you expect this ranting to accomplish anything? I read this and these comments, and I thought “Oh wow, it must be hard to be a woman.” but then I realized, if I was a woman, I would hate a man who said that! All this ranting bullshit is doing nothing. The future is the opportunity. 60% of people in college are women. If anything, this is the woman’s chance to seize power in the real world. Men are becoming lazier and fatter. Why don’t you “man-up” (oh I see what you did there) instead of whining and ranting and try to take it from us? —Now if you respond to this like “Oh, you don’t understand, you’re a man, you’re on the other side.” I’m already saying I agree, I don’t understand, and I don’t actually care. A lot of this stuff is self-pitying bullshit, which I think if women do want power, they are gonna have to drop it and rally themselves. REPLY 557. ismeMarch 30, 2012 at 12:28 AM # Gatzby, that is (at tleast to me) a new and inventive way of missing the point, which is something. Exactly what makes you think that online discussions, or even rants, prevent feminists from doing anything else? For that matter, why are you discounting the value of social media? REPLY 558. gracemargaretMarch 30, 2012 at 1:59 AM # Blame the monkeys! But our closest relatives in the animal kingdom are the bonobos, where the females are the dominant sex. So which monkeys should we emulate? Why should we emulate (your interpretation) of our monkey relatives’ behavior at all? I have a bunch of Republican racist asshole first cousins, I share my genes with them, but magically I’m nothing like them. How is that possible? Gatsby, your argument is stupid on so many levels. Carnivorous female mammals hunt and kill. They don’t sit around waiting for the men to take care of them. There is nothing in history to prove the male fantasy of the “caveman” Neanderthal who knocks the female over the head with his club and drags her back to his cave. Our species would not have survived for a month if the violence you love to imagine against women in prehistory really existed. All that is a new phenomenon. Look at Native American cultures, they were not violent against women and thrived like that for thousands of years, maybe more. But you see what you want to see to justify not taking responsibility for your actions. Anyone who is a danger to themselves or others are put in institutions. If men are all evil genetically like you claim and can’t control beating and abusing women and children, then have yourself committed. REPLY 559. FedeMarch 30, 2012 at 3:27 PM # At the risk of crossing certain boundaries of propriety, I have to say that I love you, gracemargaret. REPLY 560. gracemargaretApril 3, 2012 at 10:51 PM # Love you too. ;D REPLY 561. I hate men tooApril 13, 2012 at 10:53 PM # I LOVE your writing! I feel the same way as you do. Thanks for saying what millions of women are afraid to. REPLY 562. ColinApril 14, 2012 at 8:00 AM # Thank you for posting this. (Also, sorry for the gigantic ego-post – maybe I should get my own blog.) I don’t find it comfortable reading about how I am hated, but that’s probably a good thing. As someone fairly close to the top of the whole privilege pyramid (as a man, but also in a bunch of other ways), I can’t say I hate the kyriarchy because it oppresses me. But I do hate the status. I hate the way a lot of women must look at me. Those who have fully internalised the system look up to me – they treat me as extra- intelligent and extra-important when I have done nothing to deserve it. Those who haven’t see me as a bully who’s just waiting for the opportunity to force his will on them, and why shouldn’t they, given that most men embrace their role as oppressors? Besides, I know I am not free of sin on this score (I hate how I don’t even know how much of what I’ve got is down to privilege and how much to talent and hard work, but I suspect rather more of the former than the latter). In any case, it’s a barrier to connecting with women as equals. I also hate the way a lot of men assume I am an ally in their denigration of women – I might say that I don’t want to be roped into their game, but then I think, maybe I’m playing it just as much as they are, and deluding myself about being more righteous? The usual metaphor for someone who has a certain amount of privilege within an oppressive system is the ‘gilded cage’. I actually think it’s more like being the prison guard. He has far more freedom than the prisoner, that’s for sure. But it’s still ‘part of his job’ to degrade and dehumanise other human beings, in a system which existed long before him and would carry on just fine without him, and degradation and dehumanisation are things that if you do them enough to others, you start inflicting them on yourself as well. There are things he can do to help the inmates and console himself that he is one of the good ones, but they differ fundamentally in scope. So I have to ask myself: what kind of guard am I? Am I the kind who beats the inmates on command and tells himself “it’s not me, it’s the job”? Am I about to retire and go live as far away from the prison as possible? Am I smuggling in books or computers for them? Am I helping them escape? Or am I trying to get the prison shut down? I feel like I’m barely even at the small favours stage. What should I be doing? REPLY 563. GatzbyApril 15, 2012 at 1:59 AM # Very Good Point Isme. They actually are trying. And in the Western part of the world, it seems to be working. I guess just because people are ranting, doesn’t mean women aren’t doing anything. As for Gracemargaret, as much as I enjoyed reseaching the fact that Bonobos are indeed one of our genetically close animal relatives and actually are female dominant, (Which I found very factually interesting.) it still doesn’t mean that humans social or genetic attributes are like them.The addition of our large brains, bipedal nature and loss of our fur created a large change in our memetic social interactions. Due to bipedalism and increase in brain size, infants need to have not only a long pregnancy, but also a long time as an infant. This created both a memetic and genetic evolutionary advantage for the sex groups to split their tasks. I am not saying that our ancient female ancestors were weak, but pregnancy created much more risk for them than for Bonobos. That created a powershift for the men to be ‘protectors’ and as history tells us, power corrupts. After some research into ancient culture and the treatment of women, I have to admit, there are a lot of exceptions in cultures where men treat women as property. Most North American tribes even had the elderly women as leaders. As far as I read, Incas, Mayans and Aztecs had relatively unsuppressive cultures to women, however much of what we actually know about their daily life is lost. Women seem to have the short end of the stick when it comes to information derived from archaeology or ancient texts. We could say women were suppressed in ancient Mesopotamia but had equal rights as a man in the Persian Empire. But just because the “state” allows equal rights doesn’t mean the citizens didn’t ever perform violence against women. Just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean it’s not happening. I try not to treat any woman or man as an object or as an unequal. I agree that it is society is unbalanced but I also believe knowledge is power and knowing the history of humanity and why we are like this and judging from an outside non-biased observers perspective is the correct way to see things. REPLY 564. FedeApril 15, 2012 at 2:21 PM # Colin, one of the best ways you can use the power that comes with your relatively high status in the world, is to help raise awareness: Call out other men when they display sexist attitudes. Sexist men are much more likely to listen to you than to a woman calling them out. They won’t always make any concessions – backlash against advocacy for social justice is a force to be contended with, and many are too heavily invested in the status quo to be within pedagogical reach – but sometimes, just sometimes, your voice of reason may reach one or two. That’s one or two people who may clamp down on their impulse to tell rape jokes at a party or yell harassment the next time they see a woman walking along the street. That’s a few women not having their day ruined and their self-confidence chipped away. That’s a world of difference, right there. REPLY 565. DerkleMay 6, 2012 at 4:07 PM # This is quite nice. I’m a guy. I’m straight. And I don’t mind women being strong willed, and not taking shit from men. Actually, I believe that there shouldn’t really be a difference with how strong willed we all are. But the one thing I cant stand is when someone from the underdogs takes it and just goes really sexist/racist against the “superiors”. Like, buttersisonlymyname saying “reverse racist”?? Do you know what racist even means? It is not specifically for minorities (which is an assumption and actually now days many minorities are no longer minorities, but make up major amounts of the population in certain cities). And saying that all men (well almost) are “obnoxious, arrogant, entitled, violent, stinky, crass, loudmouthed, stupid, craven, bragadocious, thoughtless, unreflective, abusive, selfish, lowbrow, willfully ignorant assholes” is as sexist as saying women are weak, unintelligent people that deserve no rights. Now I don’t believe any of that, and of course I’m going to get a lot of hate from this, but why do we all have to hate? Can we not just accept? Recently in a sophomore world history class I was sitting in on (the teacher is a big women’s rights/feminist person) they were discussing how women have been and are still not paid as much for the same jobs as men. Somehow, they got onto the topic of being parents and none of the girls in the class thought men could be caring parents like women. The teacher disagreed, making the point that now days many men are single parents and do a great job. You see my point? The anti-sexist thing has to go both ways. These people were saying how women can do just as good as men can in the business area while at the same time were saying how men cannot do a woman’s job such as being a mom. Tell me what you think, as I think I have made a very balanced and not single sided counter argument to a lot of your rants. Follow me with what you think REPLY 566. ismeMay 7, 2012 at 3:37 AM # @Derkle Did not ND deal with that in the very first paragraphs? Also mentioned she was tired of going through the same old stuff all the time…coming in and making the same tired, flawed arguments everyone has heard of before as if feminists haven’t heard or couldn’t think of them for themselves isn’t going to help your case. And yes, I know that’s not what you meant to do, but that doesn’t matter. As first posts go, this one doesn’t scream “this’ll end badly” (it usually does the first time a man posts here), but I’m mentally preparing a new version of my usual post for such situations anyway. If not this time, some enough with someone else. In the meantime I’d advise to tread carefully and once you’ve dug yourself into a hole, to stop digging, but there’s little point. The sort of person that stops and listens to that sort of advice (and not just the one that says they did, everyone says that) is almost always the sort that knows it already. An aside, this isn’t an exclusive feminist thing, you get the same thing going on with any other forms of oppression, any time a member of the majority who wants to support a minority group, “but”, we tend to run into the same. Last examples from other places I personally have run into are one about race and one abour religion. There’s almost a checklist you can tick mistakes off on, and the person doing it thinks they are coming up with new points every time. Anyway, to throw my own 2 cents in, why shouldn’t you hate most men? Presumably you’d agree that the current society is male dominated, and unfair towards women. Now, how can that happen without the majority of men being sexist? You need a massive slab of men who are actively sexist, possibly with a large segment who aren’t, but don’t care enough to do anything. Both attitudes seem worthy of hate to me, and they, combined, must form the majority, probably the overwhelmning majority, for a sexism system to exist. Now, there’s lots of postjudice wrapped up in that, but postjudice is not prejudice. I understand that it’s a very ugly thing to face up to. Worse, when you aren’t in the group being oppressed it’s easier to think it’s uglier than the oppression itself, and the usual response is to deny it. But large scale oppression of minority groups simply cannot happen without large scale support (overt or tacit) by the majority. REPLY 567. lizorMay 7, 2012 at 8:55 AM # Derkle: Your silly predictably entitled statement that you “don’t mind” women being strong willed speaks volumes about how arrogant, self-centred and immature you are. “Now days [sic] minorities are no longer minorities” ?? Yeah it must be scary for you with all of those minorities who are frightfully making up larger percentages of the population. Butter is right, you do not know what racism is, you just embody and perpetuate it. No one said men deserve no rights as you conflate. And as for the list you quote re: men: “entitled, thoughtless, unreflective, and willfully ignorant” fit you to a T. Pull your head out and quit wasting space here with your infantile paternalistic noise. REPLY 568. HecateMay 8, 2012 at 12:12 PM # Awesome posts, isme and lizor :) So, here’s an article reporting on the dudebro culture that permeates tech companies: http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/07/tech/web/brogrammers/index.html That was exactly my experience working at Apple, and at a tech start-up ten years ago. Ten years on, little has changed. Crapple used to have ‘beer bashes’ I’d attend while working there. They probably still have them. I felt some damn awkward, as I could not walk around without being looked upon as some space oddity that just landed at the party. ‘It’s female?!’ It’s just as well I was laid off. I’m not sure I could have handled that dynamic for much longer. It also may be a blessing in disguise that I had to move further north, away from Cali. I wasn’t all that fond of the Cali mens. The arrogance of Silicon Valley is very much fueled by their passive aggressive issues. I wish they had been simple, laid back surfer dudes, as the stereotype goes. But that’s pretty far from the reality. I think I met one real surfer dude in Santa Cruz – that was about it. Very few men are secure enough to give up that much control. REPLY 569. supasaiyenMay 8, 2012 at 5:59 PM # Men who comment here are ironically giving women more reason to hate them. REPLY 570. supasaiyenMay 8, 2012 at 6:01 PM # men who comment on here ironically give women more reason to hate them REPLY 571. Kali KronosMay 8, 2012 at 7:29 PM # Look up “Misogyny” as an “Interest” in Facebook. Note the page’s title. Then, follow the very same steps for “Misandry”. REPLY 572. lizorMay 9, 2012 at 4:29 AM # Thanks for that link Hecate! “And some in the tech community complain that its anything-goes structure and sky’s-the-limit earning potential has turned the environment at some companies into something akin to your worst stereotype of a booze-soaked frat party.” I can see how this sort of situation would attract and cultivate the entitled little boys like chippy here above, who believe they deserve prizes and attention just for showing up. FTR, isme, I was pretty impressed with your level-headed response. I ran out of patience with this noise a while ago and there’s no evidence of an impending return. REPLY 573. ismeMay 9, 2012 at 5:43 AM # The tech industry is becoming more MANLY!!!!111 as it becomes more mainstream? In retrospect, that shouldn’t have been surprising. REPLY 574. HecateMay 9, 2012 at 12:45 PM # You gals crack me up :D Thank Goddess for this outlet. Yes, I found those tech dudes were definitely ‘little boys’ playing at being men. The tragic aspect for me is that it seemed my manager at Crapple had a thing for me, which meant that when I rejected him, he rejected all of my pleas for help in finally applying to be hired on as a real employee after three years of being a permatemp. Of course he had a hand in having me terminated. Then, after all his creepy moves with other normal women failed, he promptly put up a profile on Match.com and found his dream bride – from the midwest. What a turd. Men still don’t get that there are women out there who would rather pursue a career than a man. And worse still, they continue to harass women at work with impunity. Women seem to face serious consequences every time they dare to really enter the public sphere. Being as tech is the darling of industry at the moment, I’m sure they’ll continue to jealously guard it and keep it as a boys’ club for as long as they can get away with it. REPLY 575. lizorMay 10, 2012 at 6:32 AM # “Being as tech is the darling of industry at the moment, I’m sure they’ll continue to jealously guard it and keep it as a boys’ club for as long as they can get away with it.” The difficult thing about that is that tech is the new “means of production” so whoever controls that infrastructure has the monopoly on social and economic control. It is definitely not my comfort zone, but any feminist who can stomach navigating that sphere and exerting any influence whatsoever has my gratitude. So thanks for your tour in the trenches, Hecate. REPLY 576. MissfitMay 10, 2012 at 7:44 PM # Men often use the ‘nature’, ‘genetic’, excuse for their cruelty, meaning by that that their behaviour is unchangeable (how convenient, isn’t?). Since their religion lost some credibility over years, they resort to their men-made self-serving science to justify their douchey behaviour (really, when do men refer to their nature if it is not to justify such behaviour?). And then, of course, they point to the monkeys! (read Gatzby’s comment for a demonstration). You really have to read these articles regarding the work and experiences of primatologist Robert Sapolsky: http://www.sharpbrains.com/blog/2008/04/05/peace-among-primates-by- robert-sapolsky/ http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/can-animals-save-us/warrior-baboons- give-peace-a-chance?b_start:int=1&-C) Quote: ‘As field stud¬ies of pri¬mates expanded, what became most strik¬ing was the vari¬a¬tion in social prac¬tices across species. Yes, some pri¬mate species have lives filled with vio¬lence, fre¬quent and var¬ied. But life among oth¬ers is filled with com¬mu¬ni¬tar¬i¬an¬ism, egal¬i¬tar¬i¬an¬ism, and coop¬er¬a¬tive child rear¬ing.’ Studies show that ‘pri¬mates are some¬what inde¬pen¬dent from their “natures”, their behaviour is dri¬ven by their social struc¬tures and eco¬log¬i¬cal set¬tings. Everyone who says that it is in our ‘nature’ (‘our’ meaning ‘men’, as we know they are the default human being) to be prone to war and violence is wrong. This misery is the result of patriarchy. Anyway, feminists know from some time now how to achieve a more sustainable, flourishing and fulfilling lifestyle for humans: dismantle patriarchy. Also, Gatzby thinks that because human infants need to be taken care of longer, it justifies the unequal separation of the tasks between the sexes. I would say that the deal women have is so not to their advantage that women would be better off raising children on their own, allying themselves with other women (older, experienced women) to help them out. As for men as ‘protectors’, well men are women’s most dangerous predators, even more so when they wear the mask of ‘protector’… REPLY 577. HecateMay 10, 2012 at 9:02 PM # Thank you lizor :) I will just come here whenever I need a pep talk ;) Yes, it’s a bit like horse riding now being considered a ‘girly’ thing to do, though it was once looked upon as a very macho activity. I wish my experience there hadn’t come at such personal expense. But I certainly learned a lot from it. To be honest, though men in tech are good ‘technically’ at what they do, I don’t think they understand how quickly the business world is changing, in the sense that an ability to communicate is now crucial and indispensable. So I’m not sure how much longer the anti-social geek act can last, realistically. One time, at one of those goofy beer bashes, an Apple geek offered to ‘roll up a poster’ for me. Wow… Yeah, just what a girl dreams of! I agree, Missfit. I’ve always wondered why women get so dreamy about reproducing in such dreary circumstances. Every time anyone asks me of I want to have kids, the words ‘unless’ and ‘until’ often come up. No, I will not have children unless women finally receive equal pay for equal work, or until little girls are given credit for their intelligence over their looks, etc. It’s pretty much an exhaustive list. Men (and some women) will automatically label me a ‘withholding bitch’ or some such derogatory term, but I feel that way of thinking should be the rule, rather than the exception. REPLY 578. suzanneMay 11, 2012 at 1:42 AM # Just a quick note… I discovered this site late tonight. It’s 1:30. Before I go back to bed, I just have to say, I hate men. I am so happy to find this site where so many people see the injustices inherent in our lives as women. And I understand the few men that have weighed in here, wanting to excuse themselves and pretend they know our plight, but they cannot. No male will ever know what it is to be raised with our expectations and societal attitudes. Very few will ever struggle with anorexia, bulimia and body image. None will experience having to prioritize rearing children above their careers and educations. None of them will EVER have to balance being a nice girl with being a slut! None of them have altered EVERY hair on their bodies. None of them have shaved their legs and armpits daily, None have ever wasted time painting new faces on. I am angry with the assumptions and the attitudes that I have known all of my life. I am sick and tired of starting from a place where I am flawed and I must tint, and perm and starve and work out and be educated and hypersexualized and molested and victimized. Fuck men. I am tired of hearing of women competing against one another and tearing each other down. We can all be better and love one another and build each other up. I can accept other women and love them no matter what. But men!? I think they are animals. I haven’t met one yet who did not subjugate, objectify or minimize me. I haven’t met one yet that was not power hungry, or took me for granted. I am almost 40 years old, and to this day, not one man, could I EVER say treated me as an equal. They can come on here and spout what they want, but this is a safe place for us. Fuck Men! REPLY 579. ismeMay 11, 2012 at 6:43 AM # “Men often use the ‘nature’, ‘genetic’, excuse for their cruelty, meaning by that that their behaviour is unchangeable (how convenient, isn’t?).” What particularly annoys me about that defence is that it boils down to men being inherently inferior. It’s a lie you’d tell to support oppression of men, rather than by men. That’s going through the motions because you don’t need to bother defending the patriarchy, everyone else will do it for you. REPLY 580. AlouetteMay 12, 2012 at 1:24 AM # @Suzanne Yup, men don’t treat any of us as equals. Ever. We get caught up in the equality thing when it’s really just a ruse to distract us from working towards freedom. Men that are okay with their wives working do not see it in terms of “equal partnership.” They just see it as a way to expand their bank account. I find that so many women have no clue about how men really think of us so they assume that men relate to them as fellow autonomous beings when they really, really don’t. In fact, men don’t relate to us at all. We literallydon’t exist outside of being of some use to them whether that be piv, chores, extra source of income, free therapist, cherished object, emotional punching bag, etc. Notice how many of these uses are abstract and can’t (yet) be easily fulfilled by literal objects. However, that is starting to change with the rise of technology. (see girlfriend apps and “realistic” sex dolls) What will become of us when there is literally nothing we can provide them they cannot better and more efficiently provide themselves? Think about it. Please. @Missfit Technically, the second article isn’t completely supporting the “nurture” argument since an extreme circumstance (the elimination of aggressive males from the troop) was needed in order for a less violent baboon culture to develop. Will women ever value themselves at all? I mean, think about it. Why else are women placing the possibility of men acknowledging their humanity above our lives or at least quality of them? We are worth more than a man’s feelings… REPLY 581. lizorMay 12, 2012 at 7:06 AM # @ suzanne – I felt much the same way when I found this site. It’s an oasis against the onslaught of deleterious shit we deflect or absorb every day. @ isme – dead on. This argument about men being unchangeable is a dangerous one for men to invest in. Some northern towns (my part of the world) have issues with bears and other predators becoming acclimatized to human communities and initially the response is to keep people inside to keep them safe. But this is temporary until the animal can be moved. And if this is not possible (many animals will simply migrate back to where they know they can get food) the animal is killed. That’s all. So if men “cannot” control their dangerous, anti-social and predatory behaviour, then their movements need to be restricted. Severely. Like maybe a curfew? I remember a number of years ago when I lived in Vancouver there was a rash of rapes in the city so they asked women to stay indoors after dark and to only travel by car, etc. My self and my friends were furious. Why would they not keep males of the demographic – I think he was white, 18- 30 ish – locked up instead? These sorts of strategies would certainly be an incentive for men to quit excusing unforgivable behaviour in their comrades. REPLY 582. MissfitMay 15, 2012 at 6:09 PM # @Alouette: Regarding that article, I think that the fact that the remaining baboons were able to create a less hierarchical/less violent social structure is showing that the previous social order was not born out of an inescapable ‘hard-wired’ destiny, otherwise it would have reproduce itself. The fact that male baboons that grew up in different tribes and joined the troop were able to adapt their behaviour instead of resorting to violence to impose dominance shows the malleability and adaptability of behaviour. That it took a disease killing a large number of males in order to arrive at a more egalitarian/peaceful society demonstrate, I think, how it is hard to overturn patriarchy once it is firmly established, as it relies mainly on two powerful tools: violence and fear. I do not know if we must wait for a plague killing half the male population in order to build new social structures where women would be free; if that’s what it takes, I’ll have to welcome such a plague… In the meantime, more feminist work and activism is our only hope. ‘Will women value themselves at all’? I realized just recently how male- pleasing I have been most of my life (I am 35 years old) and it has not give me any real benefit; brought me more frustration and self-hating than anything else. I since gave up on this and started valuing myself and focussing on women. Not only do I feel more free and authentic than ever, but I discovered a whole new perspective on life. It is still frustrating at time, as I wish more women would take that path, but it is so positively enriching. I wish I knew about radical feminism years earlier. REPLY 583. lizorMay 16, 2012 at 4:31 AM # Great post Missfit. I agree completely with your take on the baboon piece. I don’t for a second believe the anti-social behaviour of masculinity is inevitable. I am glad you are finding some freedom in rejecting pleasing the “masters”. It is a relief to shed that although it can be lonely at times, especially as it seems that the number of women who are willing to embrace low status and self-humiliation as a given and even call it power is depressing. REPLY 584. suzanneMay 16, 2012 at 10:28 PM # There is so much food for thought here, I think I would read nonstop and stew over it for months, but I keep getting *furious* as I read these posts.I’m feeling this impotent rage that I think would be better off tempered a little. I don’t have a beautiful, well thought out argument for the whole Bonobos vs. Sapiens idea, but one thing that struck me… The thought of men as protectors? Puhleeeeze!!!!! Men have raped me. Men have left me terrified to walk my small town by myself. No man has supported me, but rather mooched off my hard work! I’ve met a few that I think are hard working responsible adults, but I have a sick feeling they trekked there on the backs of women.And furthermore, asking if this ranting accomplishes anything? Where does social change start? Likely as not, the civil rights movement, had it taken place now, would have started on a website just like this. Change will happen when the shift in ideology is great enough. On another note, years ago I read a fantastic sci-fi book, wherein womyn(I like that), had eliminated men from the population. They had breeding stock, but I believe it was all invitro… Rather than being a dystopic view of the future, it displayed an idealistic, utopian world… SANS men! I’m afraid to say that at least at the time, it seems reasonable and logical. Does anyone have an idea of what the title was, or the author? I’ve forgotten and would love to read it again. REPLY 585. suzanneMay 16, 2012 at 10:46 PM # @ Alouette… Exactly. Every man who ever said he loved me, only loved how I made them feel. I was married for 15 years. That man never knew me. He may have loved things about me(I’m attractive, a pleaser, *was* ocd about my house, had my own business, made the majority of the money and was the best mother I could possibly try to be), but he didn’t see me for the same things I valued about myself. What makes me sick is I’m with someone again. He’s a thinker and claims that’s what he values about me, but the truth is he doesn’t listen to me. He picks out what he wants to hear. It’s a funny thing I’ve noticed in the past few years. Men cherry pick our convos. Example, I had a college prof that consistently read his own agenda in my papers. He would pencil in comments about how very much he agreed with my thoughts on things, and how interesting my points were. I used to laugh, because it usually wasn’t my point at all. Later on he asked me out. REPLY 586. suzanneMay 16, 2012 at 11:00 PM # Damn, one more wee little post… Case in point… Last night I got in a fight with BF because I didn’t react to his writing(one of his hobbies)in the manner he wanted. FFSakes it was somewhat metaphorical, I was on bluetooth, only heard it somewhat, and it was completely reasonable that I would take it in context with previous(multiple) discussions that very reasonably could have been expressed by the power order of the two characters used… It’s another man looking to use me as his fun house mirror, so he only sees the reflection he’s looking for. I’m still sticking with the societal norm that I have to be nice. Men really don’t seem to be concerned with it. Why do we? I love him, but my attitude is getting harsher by the day. REPLY 587. MissfitMay 19, 2012 at 8:14 AM # @Lizor: You’re right, it feels lonely at times. You won’t win a popularity contest by saying you’re a radical feminist; we’re the ultimate rebels! But I always felt this loneliness as far as I can tell, feeling I was kind of an alien in this society, and radical feminism is a haven of sanity for me, as if I finally find a voice that speaks to and for me, helping me putting the pieces of the puzzle together. @Suzanne: I came to wonder if love between a man and a woman is even possible since we are trained to see the opposite sex in very different ways. Women are indoctrinated with the idea of ‘romantic love’ (from fairy tales, to romantic novels marketed to young girls, to women’s magazines), they learn to identify with men through men’s narratives (from religion to the whole of mainstream culture) and thus empathize with them. Men on their ends learn to objectify women through pornography. Women’s narratives are put under the label of ‘women’s issues’, thus as trivial and of no interest to them. Men do no learn to identify with women; they learn to see women as the ‘other’. Men do not ask ‘what about the womenz?’. Many seem to never envision seeing the world through a woman’s eyes; first because they are trained this way, but also I think because they are afraid of what it might reveal about their behaviour and they prefer the status quo which they feel works at their advantage. I think that under these circumstances, love (true love, not ‘bling- bling’ love) is hard to achieve. Our experiences are so different that it leads to a point where men and women can not reach each other. In every relationship I had, there came a point where I had to face the built-in misogyny of my partner. It can take different forms: porn use, benevolent sexism, Madonna/whore complex, etc., but each time I felt like there was an insurmountable distance between us. I always felt then that my feelings/thoughts/attachment were not reciprocated to the same level. I came to the conclusion that love (‘romantic love’) is an illusion. How can true love be without understanding and empathy? I now know the limits of the relationships I can have with men and I stopped seeking with them the kind of love that I can only have with other women. REPLY 588. PierreMay 22, 2012 at 6:47 AM # I’ve hated myself for being male for quite some time now. I’ve always felt like I should be a woman, and I’ve had many suicidal thoughts over it ever since I started college (just graduated). You hate men, but you’re lucky. You aren’t a man. I hate all men yet I am male. You will never know the pain of looking down at your penis and feeling this kind of disgust, feeling like you’re constantly hurting your best friend, the feeling that you have this weapon that you are carrying around in your pants all day. I think about killing myself countless times every day and your blog has certainly contributed to that. I won’t do it though because I have a single friend (my girlfriend, I’m also very very shy) who would be extremely sad if I was gone. REPLY 589. knowIamfemaleMay 28, 2012 at 6:18 PM # I share the same sentiment as the person above (trouble with being gendered a male), maybe in a more extreme case. I was bullied while rooming in a house in college with men. I’d lived in denial of my issues since puberty and it was finally living with so many mean spirited people and just plain males, that it really sent me into a breakdown where I spent a week recovering from my alocohol abuse and depression in the hospital. I’ve since been on the road to recovery and really, the only thing I’ve done is decide to just get rid of my male facade. I’m graduating soon at another college and have already purged the testosterone from my system. I’d rather have people be shrouded in ignorance and call me a mutilated man instead of a women, than stay like I was with so much testosterone running in my system. I’ve been around men from all walks of life and statuses they very much are jerks and maybe I’m some type of ‘infiltrator’ but if so, I plan on living my cover for life, which makes me very bad at causing much harm I hope. I’d also like to apologize on how I’ve made this comment about me but, I couldn’t express my opinion in support of the article without doing so. REPLY 590. MakingApointJune 8, 2012 at 12:43 AM # I never wanted to hate males, it’s just the way most of the men throughout my life have acted which has made me so resentful towards males. My father left me with my abusive mother to start a new life by himself. My older brother was spoiled rotten and would actively hit me if I said something ‘out of line’. Out of line? Whats that supposed mean? I know for a fact if I was a male he never would have said my comments were ‘out of line’. My uncles were both domineering, and though they never hit me I don’t doubt they would have if I wouldn’t have stayed quiet and submissive.There are some nice guys out there, they’re just EXTREMELY hard to find. I will say every man so far I’ve met in my life has been domineering. It’s so frustrating having to be cautious around men in fear of making them angry. They abuse their power and lash out on women and their fellow men alike when their upset. Because of this physical power they have over women they feel superior, which is wrong. If I was a man I would keep myself in check. I’m not a lesbian(theres nothing wrong with being one though), and feel very attracted to males appearences. Its just most of their personalitys that makes them a turn-off for me. I have been hurt by males I’m not going to lie. Every day on the news when they talk about a murder 99% of the time its a male who was the murderer. It seems like men WANT to keep females weak to, like they DON”T want women to get strong and be able to protect themselves. I don’t like the idea of being defenseless. In fact when I was younger I was fed up with men walking all over me so I begged my mother to let me take some self defense lessons, and she said no. I asked her for a reason and she said she didn’t want me to be a ‘heshe’ and that she wanted me to enjoy life like a young woman. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t see any problem with wanting to be able to defend yourself in a dangerous situation. Matter of the fact is, I don’t think women should dominate men, but I dont think men should dominate women either. I think they should be treated like equals. THAT is a man I would fall head over heels in love with; someone who would treat me as their EQUAL and RESPECT me. Overall, I think men abuse their power and get away with far more than they should be able to. It’s not right how they treat women and about 85% of mens egos need to be brought down a lot. Men get to say whatever they want, do whatever they want, and act however they want without getting to much of a punishment, and I wish someone would give THEM a good(hundered)punches. Wow long rant, I feel slightly better Peace out everyone :) REPLY 591. HecateJune 8, 2012 at 11:54 AM # Sorry to hear your story, MakingApoint. I had a similar situation, in which my mother identified more with the abusive members of our family. Sometimes those who have been abused themselves react by becoming just as abusive. She chose that path. I did not, fortunately. I know, it really does seem like men get to endlessly act out with impunity. For a while, I thought my abusive mother got away scot-free, without paying any consequences. But she has. No one escapes their conscience. She’s very unhealthy, physically and emotionally. Sensible folk intuit that and run miles from her. She’s never had any normal relationships where partners are concerned, and though many would say she deserves that karma, again it’s what she chose, because she decided to not own the horrible things she’s done. To me, being an adult is exactly about that – owning up. It’s is tempting to see men as the ones who have it all. But without emotional maturity, they really don’t have much. It’s interesting. My Mom is very much like a man. Abusive, coercive and just plain unpleasant. She’s also like a man, in that she has done well in the corporate world, probably thanks to said qualities. But like so many men, she has failed miserably in her relationships and refuses to see the error of her ways. She has to live with the knowledge that she allowed her children to fall in harm’s way. That’s not a life well lived, at least from my point of view. But of course anyone with a more shallow, materialistic outlook on life would think it’s all gravy and that she’s a cool lady. REPLY 592. Victorious GirlJuly 5, 2012 at 10:25 PM # The reason why I can’t stand men is because I’ve been constantly hurt all my life by them. Falling head over heels for them and then they just stab me in the back. My friends at school, that are males, always try to be smarter than me, try to make me feel like an idiot, when in fact, they’re absolute morons. Sometimes I feel like punching them in the head. And I’m glad that I chose not to date anymore until college. I feel like I will never find the right guy. I know everyone says that you will, but the right guy has not knocked on my door yet. A lot of men can be very nice though. I will admit that. There are men that I love being friends with. Most of my male friends at school though are just rude to me. That’s my opinion. I’m sure everyone else has a different opinion. I respect all opinions, man and woman. REPLY 593. just curiousJuly 10, 2012 at 8:58 AM # “I really do hate most men, because I hate what masculinity and maleness mean and the kinds of behaviors they produce.” I read some of your other posts which talk about how the submissiveness of women is conditioned by patriarchy. In the above qoute you come very close to saying that masculinity is also a social construction. I am just plain curious partly becaue i felt some of your posts were very insightful, as to what logic makes you blame men for who they are and how they behave and blame men also for who women are and how women behave? Even if at the begining of human civilization some men created patriarchy, men who had the misfortune of being their progeny ultimately inherited it and feel pressure to conform to it just the way women do. Do you think that the conditioning that men face is less than what women face? or you hate men because you think that men dont feel any pressures ? or is it somethhing else ? I also remember reading in one or the other of your post something about “what kind of men” would want to abuse, dominate, hurt women, etc ? Do you really think that this sort of abusive behaviour in men has sustained itself through the centuries by a god given inherent violence in men and not by very strong cultural forces, perhaps the same force that have compelled and convinced women that being meek, submissive, etc is good for them. REPLY 594. ismeJuly 11, 2012 at 10:17 AM # For my part, I feel that the conditioning men face doesn’t force them to act in a certain way the way it does for women, it entices them. At least in regards to this, there are very real dangers for men being openly homosexual, say. But there’s no particular risk for a man who decides not to oppress women, the way there are for women who try to avoid being oppressed. REPLY 595. lizorJuly 13, 2012 at 7:14 AM # Masculinity IS a social construction. Really, JC, you should read more of this blog as you seem a little vague on the position of this blogger. To make it really simple ( and to reiterate isme’s post): Men are conditioned to dominate; women conditioned to submit. Try starting from there when considering harm and responsibility. REPLY 596. CPBJuly 16, 2012 at 10:51 PM # “Do you really think that this sort of abusive behaviour in men has sustained itself through the centuries by a god given inherent violence in men and not by very strong cultural forces, perhaps the same force that have compelled and convinced women that being meek, submissive, etc is good for them.” Hey JC, religion IS a cultural force…a very fucking strong one (ever heard of Saudi Arabia? Not too many women jumping for joy over there…or here in the USA), and yes, it is the same cultural and social force that demanded (not convinced) women to be submissive. Seriously, where have you been for the last several thousand years: “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9) “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.” (Leviticus 12:2) “But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.” (Leviticus 12:5) “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (I Corinthians 11:3) “For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” (I Corinthians 11:8-9) “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.” (Judges 19:24-25) My personal favorite: “Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11- 14) Gee, who would want to dominate or abuse women? A man of the cloth, perhaps? REPLY 597. HecateJuly 17, 2012 at 10:59 PM # That is fantastic, CPB :) Especially considering that many so-called religious folk don’t know the first thing about the contents of The Good Book. Mmm yes, concubines. You gotta love that. And phenomena like the ‘magic underwear’ donned by Mormons. Nothing like religion to outdo the freakiest of all sexual hangups… But since they pretend so much at being prudes, I guess the best thing to do is memorize the names of each and every demon, for there are many. And you know, perform a few bizarre Wiccan rituals with menstrual blood, etc. I think that should do it ;) I plan to name my firstborn ‘Asmodeus.’ I think that’s one of the best demon names. REPLY 598. KaylaAugust 11, 2012 at 10:07 PM # Dr David Kenneth Cochrane and Dr Brian Neil Talarico, have and continue to cause inreversible life threatening harm to Woman, Children, and the Vulnerable… These Doctor’s both are paid by government to Kill people for their own Profit… Please participate in bringing both of them to justice however you see fit… They both work at the North Bay, Canada, Ontario, New Hospital, and Clinics, Kayla, Supervisor of Registered Nurse’s REPLY 599. Independant Lady at 38August 26, 2012 at 9:08 AM # To all: I am 38 and dated more than 30 men in life, this time the guy I dated (he was at my age) looked so ugly that I could not convince myself to even see him again, but he was my colleague and everyone was persuing me to meet and later marry him, Well seeking to have a family with a kid, I met him and tried to close my eyes to his short, fat, too white, totally-white hairs and focus on his attitute, which was cold by nature, and that might be the reason he was still single at 38 without a real relationship so far, and can you imagine, when we decided to court….I heard from same friends who were pushing me to see him, that he is after a 28 year old girl and wants to marry her…at the same time , without any clue so that I could at least pull out…and he was the one I ignored maybe 70% of my demands just to get married…. men are all A.s.s.h.o.l.e.s.I do not say this because they are not attracted to me and I am angry,not really…. I had lovers since 12 y.o. till now. But I wish they find a way we can have a baby without a man someday… REPLY 600. SteelhorsecowboySeptember 2, 2012 at 5:35 AM # Great writing! Although I am a man and I resent the characterization, I enjoyed the way you communicated your observations and thoughts. REPLY 601. MSeptember 8, 2012 at 12:38 PM # I’ve just come to the realization that I hate men as well. I think that your description of them is pretty accurate(sad to say). I do not understand why society accepts the stereotypical ideals of what a “real man” is supposed to be. I think that most men dislike women and that they only tolerate us because we have something that they need. I have heard outrageous comments about women from a few of my male relatives that prove my point. What the heck is wrong with them? I’m pretty much done with trying to figure it out. REPLY 602. HecateSeptember 11, 2012 at 1:19 PM # An important blog post for any woman who has ever been harassed by men in public (that would be most of us): http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to- share-this-story I’ve felt the same terror, and honestly, it makes me want to get my weight up to 200 pounds, and stay there. In fact I think the real reason men say they aren’t ‘into’ overweight women is that their chances of attacking or keeping down a bigger woman are lower… REPLY 603. ismeSeptember 13, 2012 at 9:36 AM # I’m not sure about that. However, there definitely seems to be a desire for very unusually small and fragile looking women, presumably for this reason (or more charitably, it’s easy to look big and tough if you find someone small and fragile looking to stand next to, which I suppose doesn’t technically have to turn into a disturbing/dangerous power trip). REPLY 604. HecateSeptember 13, 2012 at 5:17 PM # Yes isme, I did exaggerate a bit there :D It’s just that for once, it would be nice to see a man put up with half of what women do when it comes to street harassment, etc. With regard to body image, sometimes I see things in pop culture that really concern me. This is a video I may have posted somewhere else here, but it’s a dangerous invitation for the public to accept bdsm culture into the mainstream as ‘cutesy’ and desirable, and to see weakness (here, looking like a wispy waif) as woman’s natural state. Though this is more like a girl-woman. If you have the stomach to analyze it further, there is a lot of material here for discussion: REPLY 605. TomSimsSeptember 18, 2012 at 8:24 AM # “but it’s a dangerous invitation for the public to accept bdsm culture into the mainstream as ‘cutesy’ and desirable, and to see weakness (here, looking like a wispy waif) as woman’s natural state.” As a st8 normal man , I agree with you. But there are feminists that embrace BDSM and Poly. Here’s one link http://bitchmagazine.org/post/thinking-kink-my-final-leather-clad- curtain-BDSM-feminist-magazine-sexuality-blog-series And I thinks it’s very hypocritical of these people to express these views. REPLY 606. rationalityOctober 18, 2012 at 11:52 PM # Wow. Just wow. It really just come down to penis envy, for example if that man offered some money for the magazine you would be jabbering on about how women doesn’t need hand outs she’s independent or some shit. He is being masculine because he is a man! I know you can’t help that you were born a woman but there is nothing wrong with being a woman you just have to get over your penis envy and move on with your life, go see a psychologist to try to relive your deep rooted anger, was your heart broken by a boy at some stage of your life? REPLY o Nine DeuceOctober 18, 2012 at 11:59 PM # Great point. I’ll go get some help. Thank god you found my site. REPLY o SugarpussOctober 19, 2012 at 1:40 PM # rationality said: It really just come down to penis envy[…] Gee, that’s awfully strange. I could have sworn that men are so jealous of women, they make up the vast majority of sex change operations. And, gee.. I could have sworn that there are WAAAAY more drag queens than drag kings. And then there’s those guys who just get off on wearing women’s pantyhose. Which one are you, asshole? REPLY 607. SugarpussOctober 19, 2012 at 1:45 PM # Further thoughts… I fail to see the benefits of walking around with a giant lump in your crotch. It makes “wearing the pants” quite illogical, if you know what I mean. Conclusion: Pants are for women. Skirts are for men. If you disagree, eat me. REPLY 608. HecateOctober 19, 2012 at 11:45 PM # You’re awesome, Sugarpuss :) I think a good way to scare off sexist pigs like Mr. (ir)rationality there is to say “Yes, indeed, I do have penis envy – I like to collect them in jars, like pickles!” :D REPLY 609. lizorOctober 20, 2012 at 4:11 AM # I suppose you posted poor little “rationality”‘s tiresome dither for comic relief? REPLY o Nine DeuceOctober 20, 2012 at 10:25 AM # I did. REPLY 610. SugarpussOctober 20, 2012 at 10:46 PM # Hecate said: ,blockquote>I think a good way to scare off sexist pigs like Mr. (ir)rationality there is to say “Yes, indeed, I do have penis envy – I like to collect them in jars, like pickles!” :D It’s interesting that you should mention pickles. I’ll tell you a little story. :D My crumby, bummy ex-bf LOVED those jumbo spicy pickles that you can buy in gallon-sized jars. Every time I got sick of his BS (and that was quite often), I’d secretly use one of those pickles to masturbate with…then I’d put it back in the jar. The highlight of my evening was lounging on the sofa, watching him devour his beloved pickles. It was especially enjoyable to watch, if we’d had a major argument earlier in the day. He thought he was smart, but I showed him who’s boss…even if he never realized it. REPLY 611. SugarpussOctober 20, 2012 at 10:51 PM # Crap. I messed up the code. Random thought: It’s “Breast cancer awareness month” but nobody is worried about the dangers of breast implants. I’m always amused by the way men pretend to give a fuck about women’s health. All they care about is what gets their pickles hard. REPLY 612. lizorOctober 21, 2012 at 8:05 AM # Well thanks. Your response was fantastic – as well as Sugarpuss and Hecate. I particularly like the idea of Advanced Envy leading to penis hoarding in jars, or possibly even developing some artisanal sun-drying technique so that they can be stored and reconstituted on a bad day when one is feeling one’s Lack of Dink particularly acutely. I think there’s a great entrepreneurial potential for developing a cottage industry in providing free-range, organically grown pickled or dried pee pees for the envious. I like to think of it as a profitable public service. Thanks gals! I’m off to my local Credit Union to negotiate a small business start-up loan! REPLY 613. HecateOctober 21, 2012 at 7:19 PM # Wow, that’s quite a story, Sugarpuss. I’ll never be able to look at a jar of ‘jumbo spicy pickles’ the same way again :D Just thinking about him grabbing one and chomping on it while watching a football game or something just cracks me up! And lizor, once you get your artisanal small business going, you can promote it with the song ‘detachable penis.’ ;) REPLY 614. AndrewNovember 18, 2012 at 3:24 AM # You are a freeloader. The only reason you have any rights is because men gave them to you. Couple years back you would be selling your ass for a living if you aren’t right now. The fact is if men weren’t nice you would be be down back in the old days. When the shit hits the fan your always hiding behind a man to protect you. You have too. REPLY o Nine DeuceNovember 18, 2012 at 1:54 PM # Steve Albini (pretending to be some guy named Andrew) – I always thought you’d express yourself a bit more ornately. REPLY 615. SugarpussNovember 18, 2012 at 5:52 PM # Did my previous comment go through? Tried it twice but it got ate. REPLY o Nine DeuceNovember 19, 2012 at 2:14 PM # Sugarpuss – I checked the spam folder and there aren’t any from you there, so I don’t know what happened. Please repost. REPLY 616. AndrewNovember 18, 2012 at 10:58 PM # I don’t know who this Steve guy is your referring too. You know just cause you can cry here on the Internet and try to act so eloquent you think you’re the shit. And unfortunately you come across as though all women feel like you do. All you’re really doing is passing down hatred. If you don’t like men who gives a shit. Don’t have sex with them, don’t talk to them, don’t do anything with a man. Why don’t you get some of your girl friends together next week and physically do something to help your position instead of Crying all the time about how bad you have it . All talk no action why don’t you fucking do something. I’m not some guy named Steve but it was nice of you to put his full name on the Internet real fucking cool. You’re a little loudmouth manhater bully of the girl club. You make me sick to my stomach you’re disgusting example of a female. I can only hope you have no children at all. Oh but what if you did have a son would you hate him just as much as you hate all men. You need some serious therapy and this little blog does not count. You are child. REPLY o Nine DeuceNovember 19, 2012 at 2:13 PM # New comment policy: All comments that make me laugh will be approved. REPLY 617. SugarpussNovember 19, 2012 at 4:08 PM # Dear Andrew (you irrelivent sack of shit), It is men who are freeloading off of women. More specifically, the producers of porn are lining their pockets with the monies procured from exploiting women’s bodies (same goes for practically all mainstream advertising). Losers like yourself would NEVER get laid if prostitution ceased to exist (which is why it continues). Big American corporations profit from outsourced female slave labor. Cosmetics industry profits from women. Predatory plastic surgeons (almost always male) profits from women. And let’s not forget that, when you came out of your father, you were nothing but a gelatinous glob of testicle snot. But when your mother pushed your ugly ass out from her womb, you were (unfortunately) a living, breathing creature. Men owe their entire fucking livelihood to the female sex. And what of female animals? Your double quarter pounder came from a cow. Your morning omelet was made with a hen’s menstrual cycle (they call them EGGS). Yep, your breakfast, lunch AND dinner was made possible by the bodies of mutilated and exploited female animals. And then, of course, some woman (mother, wife, girlfriend, the lady working at McDonalds) prepared these meals for your lazy, fat, stinking, privileged ass. Andrew, you only exist because most women are too nice to retaliate. However, if most women were like me, you’d find yourself begging for your life. Every. Single. Day…I walk the streets, eagerly anticipating am encounter with someone just like you. I want some worthless, arrogant, misogynistic cocktrash to run his mouth at me, so that I can finely unleash this long-simmering rage on his body, mind & soul. Some women dream about planting flower gardens, baking bread or looking hawt for their overbearing, pot-bellied hubby. I dream about forcing a man like you to clean my toilet with his face. Sandpapered nipples & Pine-Sol enemas would be great too. Or maybe just a couple hundred kicks to the ‘ol ribcage. A scorpion dropped into the underpants would be interesting. I could go on and on! But I wont. The End. REPLY 618. SugarpussNovember 19, 2012 at 4:15 PM # Andrew said: If you don’t like men who gives a shit. Don’t have sex with them, don’t talk to them, don’t do anything with a man. If you don’t like Feminist blogs, who gives a shit? Don’t read them, don’t post your irrelivent opinion on them, don’t waste any more of your time trying to force Feminists to see things your way, dickhead. REPLY 619. ismeNovember 20, 2012 at 6:31 AM # Not to mention, the vast majority of unpaid work is done by women. Likewise much of the under-appreciated, but vital stuff. Female dominated industries like teaching or nursing never pay enough, but are of obvious and extreme importance. I would somewhat agree about men giving women rights, but not at all the way it was meant. REPLY 620. ChristinaNovember 20, 2012 at 9:10 AM # Men are complete assholes. What really gets to me is that they are so arrogant yet what value to they give to society????? REPLY 621. ChristinaNovember 20, 2012 at 11:37 AM # Men are complete assholes. What really gets to me is their arrogance yet what value are they giving to the world??????????????????? REPLY 622. lizorNovember 20, 2012 at 1:57 PM # I think some mean lady must gave laughed at Steve’s pee pee and having one being his only achievement, he’s never gotten over it. Poor little mite. Maybe cleaning your toilet with his face will give him a sense of purpose in life, Sugarpuss. You are very kind to offer him a hand up. REPLY 623. gracemargaretNovember 20, 2012 at 3:19 PM # Heart disease kills five times more women than breast cancer, but you have to save those boobies, forget about the human being they’re attached to Don’t you love how bird-brains (no offense to birds) like Andrew always resort to the not-so-veiled threats of violence? Men like him know that the only reason men dominate the world is because the can always use violence to keep women in line. Sometimes as a last resort, but they know if all else fails they can. They like to tell themselves it’s because men are smarter, that we live in a meritocracy and men are just superior at everything, but they know deep down that it all boils down to who can beat up who. Even with these barriers women still eventually out-perform most men at practically everything if given a chance to get an education. That’s why they need to do things like throw acid in little girls faces or more subtle things like beat down girls’ self-esteem at an early age and train her to think of her looks as her most important asset. And their targets keeps getting younger and younger. REPLY 624. FedeNovember 20, 2012 at 7:41 PM # I love you people in here so much I can hardly express it. With the obvious exception of one who shall remain nameless but rhymes with manstew. REPLY 625. SugarpussNovember 20, 2012 at 10:27 PM # Gracemargaret said: Heart disease kills five times more women than breast cancer, but you have to save those boobies, forget about the human being they’re attached to. THIS. Oh gawd yes, this. Men don’t give a shit about women’s health; they never have. That’s why I found a Botox ad in, ironically, an issue of Women’s Health magazine. Can you believe that MRA;s are actually jealous of the whole breast cancer awareness thing? That’s where “Movember” came from. Growing a mustache for prostate cancer awareness, in the month of November. Note that choosing the month right after breast cancer month (October) just reeks of spite and a “Me too” vibe. And it doesn’t make a bit of sense; what does facial hair have to do with the prostate gland? Is it supposed to make their mouth look like a hairy bunghole, thereby reminding other men to get to the doc for their yearly probing? REPLY 626. SugarpussNovember 20, 2012 at 11:36 PM # Oh! I experienced one of those irritating “smile” moments, this morning. The asshat caught me off guard, so I wasn’t able to deliver a proper, radical response. I was on a very important mission; the procurement of a Mrs. Freshley’s Cinnabon Honeybun. Apparently, Random Dude was irritated by my neutral, contemplative, sun-shining-in-my-fucking-eyes expression, and felt the need to make an attempt at correcting my non-conforming behavior. I failed to provide him with his entitled visual stimuli. Simply put, I was a BAD ornament. I dared to look human. It’s a good thing he was walking rather fast; I thought I was gonna have to cut a bastard. REPLY 627. NatalieDecember 3, 2012 at 1:19 PM # ALL sex is RAPE!!! REPLY 628. MaryDecember 21, 2012 at 11:09 AM # I read this post and I couldn’t agree more. But I would like to add as it did mention American men, that ALL of these things that seem to call themselves men suffer from the same problem. I’ve been engaged to several men, none of whom were American as I thought finding a guy from another country would afford me the opportunity for something better than what’s offered here in the good old US of A. WRONG!!! All of them are self centered asses who don’t give a crap about anything but themselves and the daily dick measure contests they enter into with other so called males. I say so called because my definition of a man is someone who carries himself w/ respect and gentility. One who would treat a woman w/ the utmost respect… especially a woman who is his potential wife, is actually his wife or the mother of his children. But all that seems to be required to be a man is the fact that you have a penis. Shame really. What happened to the old days when a man could fix the car, a leaky roof, faucet, you name is.. and still worked a full time job ( or more) and supported his family. It would seem that today’s males don’t want to get their hands dirty, can’t mess up their nails and really don’t know how to do any of these things and aren’t interested in learning either. Very few of them really actually are. I see too many times where the male of the house is sitting at home playing video games or eating bonbons watching TV while the wife is working herself to death to carry the household financially. And still he has the nerve to cheat, disrespect her and doesn’t even bother to cook or do any housework. But brings in his buddies or bimbos to make even more mess in addition to his own to clean. Yet there are female who are willing to put up w/ this. And because of this I do blame females for some of the things men do. Things have gotten lax. If we didn’t put up w/ this kind of behavior men wouldn’t do it. I tell any man quick, If i have to work just as hard w/ you as I do w/out you, I don’t need you. I’m a hard working. I’ve worked up to five jobs at once and I don’t need any man to take care of me. I was once told by a man that my problem is that I won’t let a man be a man. LOLZ, you show me one and I’ll let him be one. Screwing every female that’s dumb enough to lay down w/ you and making babies that you have no intention to be a father to or take care of does not a man make. I’ve been picked on by other women for not having a man and for still being a virgin even though I’m in my 30’s. But excuse me, I’ve never seen one male who was worth giving a very precious part of me to that I can never get back. REPLY 629. ismeDecember 22, 2012 at 7:16 PM # “What happened to the old days” I’m not sure they ever really existed. The idea tends to be brought up by people wanting to blame various groups (feminists for one) for destroying society or whatever, not so much by actual sociologists. REPLY 630. SugarpussDecember 25, 2012 at 4:59 PM # @Mary: Your post rucks…but… men have always been asshats, These days, it’s just a different flavor of bunghole, ya know? PS It’s Christmas day, and they showed a woman being raped in a Clint Eastwood western, on AMC…entirely unedited. I hate men. REPLY o MaryDecember 26, 2012 at 5:18 AM # Thanks Sugarpuss! I’m so glad I’ve found this site because I’ve always thought maybe it was just me that felt this way. I’ve always wondered what the heck was wrong with males and why they act the way they do. Even from a child I’ve set and watched, marveling in amazement and disgust, at the women around me putting up w/ the crap males do… all the while sitting there w/ smiles plastered across their faces like everything was ok no matter what. I’ve seen very beautiful women beaten to the point where they were unrecognizable. I’ve witness well educated, brilliant, self assured women mentally and verbally abused till they were reduced to a state of constant nervous shakiness. Or a mass of self loathing, always questioning what they’re doing or feeling that they are worthless and can’t do anything successfully. All because a male told them they were worthless or stupid. I’ve had males try that crap on me (in most cases after I’d refused do or act the way they wanted me to,) and I’d always tell them you got the right one now honey. Cause I’m not some idle brained mute mouth female who’s afraid to stand up for herself. Nor am I about to let some male lead me around by the nose as if I’m his flunky. I don’t judge my self worth by what a man deems it to be. I do often times wonder what’s the matter w/ some females as well. I see them fretting and crying about how some male has wronged them or how he acts all the time. Hey ladies, no one can do any more to you than what you let them! I’d rather be alone than be in a constant state of hell just so I can say I have a male. Besides, what message does this send to young girls? Not a very positive one for sure. REPLY 631. SugarpussDecember 25, 2012 at 5:01 PM # Ooops…that should say “rocks”. *sigh* REPLY 632. gracemargaretDecember 27, 2012 at 8:14 PM # “Hey ladies, no one can do any more to you than what you let them!” @Mary It’s frustrating but many times women don’t have the economic resources and social support to leave someone who’s controlling and abusive. It’s not as simple as that. REPLY 633. ismeDecember 29, 2012 at 2:35 AM # “It’s frustrating but many times women don’t have the economic resources and social support to leave someone who’s controlling and abusive. It’s not as simple as that.” Seconded. That sort of sentiment might sound great, but it’s a short step from there to victim blaming and denying the issue. REPLY 634. DudesowinDecember 29, 2012 at 6:46 PM # To The POST: Men don’t have to “take” your opinion that you don’t like men. For it does not change how we go about doing what we do. To First Post: Why can’t women ever sit down and talk about sex from a purely objective stand point with out getting horny with all sorts of emotional expectations? A 15 year old boy laughing and expressing differing sets of emotions? Such is to be expected if they are ever to be an object of a woman’s affection generating emotional rapport in a relationship and initiating sexual encounters. You loathe their feelings? What pisses me off is how women are brought up never being allowed to accept their anger and assert them self. Then they turn into persuasive passive aggressive vindictive assholes later on that require such men you speak of to deal with them and even fuel this problem worse. REPLY 635. RobynDecember 29, 2012 at 8:57 PM # @ DudeSoWin: “To The POST: Men don’t have to “take” your opinion… What pisses me off is how women…” To paraphrase an old saw: better to silently read and be thought of as a fool than to post on that blog and remove all doubt. :-/ Which applies to me as well, TBH – being sort-of an XY – but when I read the broad-scope thoughts of women here on the nature of the issue, then encounter the odd infinitesimal-scope remarks of males who feel compelled to retaliate, the enormity of the task of educating men plunges me into despair. Temporarily. Nevertheless, I will continue to speak out when I see it: invariably, I find one that will listen. And agree. The entitlement issue is much like the assault-weapon-in-the-home issue: it will really only see change if those who currently do not see clearly are given enough light to see all of us – in this case: XYs – play a key role in making the difference because it is a mindset thing… OUR mindset. REPLY 636. gracemargaretDecember 29, 2012 at 10:16 PM # “What pisses me off is how women are brought up never being allowed to accept their anger and assert them self.” Why does that piss you off, pray tell? Just go about your business being a big manly man who doesn’t have to give a shit about us trivial little wimmen. You sound like a real winner. “then they turn into blah blah blah blah blah later on that require such men you speak of to deal with them and even fuel this problem worse.” Again the not so veiled threat of violence ‘required’ to deal with them uppity women. REPLY 637. feminists are bigotsJanuary 3, 2013 at 9:51 AM # You sure are a hate mongering, bigoted, mentally handicapped loser. Thanks for letting us all know. I won’t be returning to your site as I prefer not to read gibberish written by subhuman morons with the mental capacity of a lump of three week old cottage cheese. REPLY o Nine DeuceJanuary 3, 2013 at 1:27 PM # I’m not one for the whole “u mad, bro?” thing, so I’ll just say, “You would know.” REPLY o SugarpussJanuary 3, 2013 at 1:38 PM # […]three week old cottage cheese I’ll bet you have plenty of that growing beneath your foreskin. :) REPLY 638. .,January 15, 2013 at 7:13 PM # I think this topic is interesting. I allowed myself to fall into hate of everyone after I was assaulted, especially men, but now I am trying to pull back on the hate cause it was eating me alive. I just hated everyone and everything and in the end it just left a wake of bad karma and nasty, poorly thought out internet posts. Hating things just doesn’t get me anywhere. I just allowed myself to be hateful because I would never have justice against the guy that assaulted me, but I found that giving the black dog the freedom to rage just hurts me. I started out a softhearted and friendly girl then after the assault I hated men because they are entitled and rape prone, my family because they abandoned me, internet feminists cause they were bitchy and demanding when I first reached out for support, and religious people because they are pushy and victim blaming, and this group because I disagree with them, and this person because they triggered me, and this person because they have privileges I don’t have and on and on. But you know what? It did nothing but make me feel like crap and spending a lot of time feeling regret about what I would say when angry. But what are we who have been hurt and violated by men supposed to do with the anger? It’s justified. And besides when I am triggered sometimes I just don’t care. But I don’t find solidarity on the internet – it’s just too impersonal, and it’s isolating, and too often outrage inducing even on websites that are supposed to be safe spaces for survivors. I don’t know what to do to improve relations between the sexes, but I think men’s groups that discourage sexual assault (except ones that feature anything by Hugo Creepfest) makes me feel like there might be hope. Anyhow, this year I am going to try to let go of the hate and deal with whatever is underneath it instead of wasting my time fighting losing battles on the internet and burning bridges in real life. So, here’s my mea culpa – I don’t want to hate anymore – I’m sad there is rape in the world and I feel powerless to do much about it, I’m angry that the response is so typically disjointed and ineffective, I’m angry that feminism is such a mish mash of special interests that rape has become a click getter instead of something more helpful – but this year I’m going to try to channel it into something better. Wish me luck! REPLY 639. SugarpussJanuary 18, 2013 at 6:50 PM # I just hated everyone and everything and in the end it just left a wake of ,b>bad karma and nasty, poorly thought out internet posts. There is no such thing as “karma”. Proof: Men have been treating women like shit for millions of years, and have never received their comeuppance. No magical hand has emerged from the clouds and struck them down. But hey, thanks for the guilt trip, DUDE. REPLY 640. sneekybunnyJanuary 19, 2013 at 2:05 PM # ., That was lovely. I know I felt a lot like that too after I was assaulted, lo these many years ago. You’re right that your anger was, and is, justified; at men, the patriarchy, rape culture etc, and I am very sorry that you didn’t find the help and support you needed. That you have the strength of spirit to work against the hate that your experience has made you feel is so impressive. Especially since that hatred is so completely justified. Thank you for sharing your feelings, and I wish you luck with all my heart. REPLY 641. NOne of your businessJanuary 19, 2013 at 8:58 PM # I HATE MEN TODAY! Women are RIGHT! I did a behavioral study THAT stated that the more a woman treated a man like shit the more he loved her for it. THATS IT. THATS WHAT WILL FIX THEIR Y CHROMOSOME. ABUSING THEM. Here little puppy, sit, go down, roll over and maybe I will decide to rub your belly. Then you chain the pup dog outside. Women I demand you all do it and stop barking at me about it. REPLY 642. Jane MathersJanuary 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM # I thiink all phallo cnetric prick woprshipping men bastard should be costratid at birth and we should be together for usselves for women to have better world and cut pricks of men so things will be better forever with mther goddess love for everyone,. REPLY 643. lizorJanuary 20, 2013 at 9:25 AM # Good luck to you ., I relate to what you are saying – it sounds like our stories have some similarities – and have asked the question so many times: What do I do with all of this rage that is burning inside me? I remember an interview with Reuben Carter, who spent 22 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. The interview asked him about the emotional fallout of that and he said “hatred destroys the container”. It stuck with me because I feel that very clearly and yet, after all these years, I still struggle with the loathing instilled in me, not only by my rapist, but by every apologist, every rape-glorifying piece of media (try avoiding THAT), every ignorant comment. …. Well, you know the drill. So yes, good luck to you. There are not many refuges, but there are some. I am blessed by the people in my life and that I live somewhere where I can disappear into the woods for extended periods of time. This gives me strength to speak honestly from my experience on the occasions I feel there is a chance I may be heard. The occasions where I am heard without criticism, denial, resistance or full-on attack are precious, even though they are rare. REPLY 644. SugarpussJanuary 22, 2013 at 6:38 PM # Gee…I wonder why nobody ever gives the annoying, hand-slapping “hate is bad for your health” speech to men? Awfully suspicious, no? At this very moment, men all over the world, all over the internet, are freely expressing their contempt for women…and not one person, male or female, dares to step in and suggest anger management. Nobody attempts to silence a man while he is spewing his hate. Hell, men win awards for their hate…Oscars, Grammys, Emmys, etc. Oh, but HOW DARE a woman blog about hating men! Sacrilege! Anger might make you sick, but repressed anger leads to an explosion. A very big one. I know what I’m talking about. I HATE men. But I also hate anybody who would try to take my right to feel hate away from me. Manipulators (posing as victims) need to FUCK OFF. And I’m tired of gullible Feminists, too. Like lambs to the slaughter. LOL Oh, but nevermind me…I’m just paranoid. I wonder if they will still squeak out those words when their necks are stretched out on the inevitable chopping block? Will they ever say “Gee…Sugarpuss was right”? But even so, by then it’ll surely be too late. REPLY o MaryJanuary 23, 2013 at 11:14 AM # It’s frustrating but many times women don’t have the economic resources and social support to leave someone who’s controlling and abusive. It’s not as simple as that. @ Whom ever wrote this. It’s not ok to use this as an excuse. It’s up to YOU as to whether you want to be a victim all your life or not. You are responsible for your own happiness and well being. I’d rather leave w/ just the clothes on my back and stay in a homeless shelter.. looking for a job and a place to stay, rather than live my life in unhappiness w/ man that mistreated. Even if her was rich and I could buy any and everything under the sun. Besides, it’s even worse when you introduce children into this type of abuse. It’s not only not fair, but then you become the abuser too as you are LETTING your child witness and be abused as well. Even if they child isn’t phsyically hit, the act of watching such things is mental abuse and makes for a very unhappy childhood or adulthood. I always like to think about Tina Turner, when she left Ike all she asked for was her name. She didn’t get anything, but managed to survive. Ture we don’t all have her talent of singing to fall back on. But trust me, if you leave an abusive relationship to better yourself or offer a better life for your children, you’ll find just how resourceful and talented you really are. You’ll also see there is more support out there than you know. God helps those who helps themselves. I’ve had friends who were in abusive relationships, and tired to help them liberate themselves, only to see them stay w/ the husbands or boyfriends. Some women feel like they can’t live w/out a man or the man has brain washed them that if they leave they will fail and be nothing w/out them. Later on when they as a couple needed help for anything I wouldn’t give it to them. I wanted to help my friend(s), but didn’t because by helping them I would’ve been helping the husband/boyfriend. But were they not w/ those abusive males I’d have given them the shirt off my back if it’d have helped them lead a happy independant life. Help is there many times IF you are trying to help yourself. Many times men will slowly systematically take away your support system by keepig you away from family and friends. Suggesting that this one or that one doesn’t love or care about you. Or fussing and saying little snotty remarks when you talk to or associate w/ friends or family. This is done on purpose, one to isolate you so that you will not seek help, Two, because he knows it won’t take long before they realize and see him for the jerk that he really is and tell you about it and suggest that you leave him. And three, because he wants to make you feel there is no one but him all the time and that w/out him you have nothing and no one to turn to. And lets not leave out the fact that most men don’t really want to take a chance on people being around to see the abuse because it shines light one the fact that he’s flawed himself. He knows he’s wrong and is embarrassed about his actions. REPLY * Nine DeuceJanuary 25, 2013 at 11:34 PM # So, Mary, you’re saying that when men abuse women, we need to be critical of women’s behavior? You sound like an abusive man. REPLY * MaryJanuary 27, 2013 at 4:27 PM # @ Nine Deuce: I’m not saying that one should set out to down someone in a malicious way or not try to help a person who needs it. But What I’m saying is that at some point you should TRY to help yourself instead of sitting by saying there is NOTHING you can do and not even trying. Having every excuse in the book as to why you shouldn’t leave or why it’d be hard to leave is not going to help that person. However, at least trying is showing that you will not put up w/ this kind of treatment.. that your believe you’re worth more than what you’re getting. Nine you sound like and excuse maker who loves to sit and whine, yet never DO anything. If you’re not willing to help yourself, why should someon else be. I’ve been down that road before where I helped time after time, at the risk of my own saftey, mental calmness, and happiness, only to see the person that I was trying to help go right back to that situation. True it’s their choice to make, but how many times should I be at their every beck and call, be their personal body guard to come running at any time day or not when they need me,… piggy bank, fool and door mat? I’ve actually rented apartments, gotten in to phsycal fights, bought clothes, food and given jobs to women in an effort to try and help them. But when I see the husband/ boyfriend, driving the car I might have loaned them (w/ another female in it to boot), or he’s been allowed to come and live in the apartment I’ve rented and is causing damange that I must pay for, then we have a problem… and it’s plain to see that the person I’m trying to help is not helping themselves. If they want to go back to that person or live w/ them it’s their business. But don’t call me again when he kicks your butt. And certainly don’t call me to throw him out when you’ve let him in the “safe place” I’ve put you in because you said you wanted to get away from him. Oh and, yes, give me my car keys. Put a bit in his mouth and ride him where you need to go. If this is what you call being critical, then so beit, I’m critial. I’ve actually helped people and asked for nothing in return, told no one at all because it’s not my business to broadcast their life occurances. I will do anything to help anyone better their lives because everyone deserves to have a chance at a happy non abusive life. But I draw the line at continuing to be used. Some I help go on to have nice fulfilling lives. Some just continue the cycle w/ the same or different men. One has to know when to let go. I don’t think that’s called being critial of the female. it’s call releasing yourself from dead weight. Sorry, but I do have a limit. No one can do any more to you than what you let them and YOU have to be willing to help yourself. Or no one will be able to help you to start with. REPLY * Nine DeuceJanuary 27, 2013 at 5:25 PM # I understood you the first time, Mary, but I still wonder why you continue to spend your energy judging abused women rather than the men in these situations, who are the ones actually doing the abusing. REPLY * MaryJanuary 28, 2013 at 10:14 AM # Excuse you, Deuce, I never said I judged them. Instead, If you read what I wrote and understood it as you say you did, I spent a lot of my time and energy trying to help them. However, w/in many situations there are some people that you just can’t help. It doesn’t have to be domestic violence. I’ve even tired to help some people go back to school, get a Ged, have steady employment… but there are those who just will not try to help you help them. They will come to you crying and whinning and when you do try to help them they do nothing. This is not spreading negative energy. I call it spreading love and opportunity, I’m sure everyone will agree w/ me. I never said I didn’t blame the men. Yes sometimes we all get into situations in life that we shouldn’t and most of wish we weren’t in them or hadn’t gotten in them to start w/. So when we go to someone crying and asking for help and they try to help us if we do want to better ourselves then we should assist them in helping us. It’s not only a worry for me, because I lose sleep and worry a lot of about people who come to me for help, but it’s an INSULT when I take them in, and take time out of my life and let their drama disturb my peace to help them and then they do nothing or go back to it. However, you can’t place all the blame on the man when the female isn’t willing to help herself. Should I blame the schools for the person who refuses to study, but wants to hang out late w/ his buddies and misses class the next morning? Who should I blame for the one I gave a job to who either shows up late every day or doesn’t bother to show up at all? When should people be accountable for their own actions, well being and life? This is one of the things that is wrong w/ society today. Everyone wants to blame someone for everything and hold no responsibility for themselves. I’ve been abused, I’ve been sexually assulted. But I don’t choose to sit and cry about it and let it grip my life to the point where I think I’m not worth the effort for me to help my ownself. I will not let that situation define who or what I am. If I’d done that I wouldn’t be able to help other’s now. I know that these people are going through things and need a friend, not a judge, which is why I go above and beyound to assist them. I’ve even paid for counsel and other medical attention. But I think that at the end of the day, it’s up to US to take a step in the right direction and keep going in that direction w/out turning back reguardless of any stumbles along the way. As long as you sit there w/ excuses, you will never be able to better yourself and the situation or person(s) will always have an advantage over you… Even if you’ve removed yourself from the situation. I refuse to sit cribbled in grief not trying to better my life because of what happened to me. I will NOT give my abusers that power. So you can keep your blind judgements and one sided opinions to yourself. I understand that a lot of us females have anger towards males. Believe me, I wouldn’t spit on the average one if he was on fire. But I will not let that hatred consume or cripple me to the point that I do nothing but sit and blame and whine it’s their fault I can’t do this or that and never even TRY. I refuse to let hatred consume me to the point where I become just as bad and loathsome as they are or a mass of crumpled self doubting nothingness that feels I have no control of my own life and safety. I’m sorry, you can keep on sitting in the corner w/ the pittiful mouth cowering and blaming everyone and everything and not doing anything to help yourself if you want. But pardon me while I come out swinging honey. I might not win the war, but baby I’ll fight the battle for myself and any other female that needs me to. How does it go? I AM WOMAN, HEAR ME ROARRRRRRRRR!!! REPLY * Nine DeuceJanuary 28, 2013 at 4:24 PM # I’m sure violent men are real afraid of you, Mary. Now, about these women you’re helping. Do they really exist? And do I need to explicate the stupidity of that school analogy, or would you like to retract it? REPLY * MaryJanuary 28, 2013 at 5:57 PM # I retract nothing, If I Had it all to do over again, an effort to help someone, I’d gladly do it. It’s not about striking fear into the heart of men, but rather being a good support system for other women who need help and encouraging them to stand up for themselves and better their lives… to see their self worth. I really don’t know what you get out of what I type as two people can read the same book and get different meanings. All I know is what I feel in my heart is that if I’m able to help someone who is willing to help themself then I’m compelled to do it. I owe you no explination or proof in the matter. While you’re belittling me, tell me this. Why would you encourge a perosn to stay in a stituation where they are being beaten and abused? If they so no I can’t, what sort of person are you to say to them, yeah, you sure can’t…….Girl you better stay there and get beaten and never try to leave the situation cause you’ll never be able to do it? That wouldn’t saying very much for the heart in you or your spirit of sisterhood. I don’t care what the sitution is, eduction, abuse, or employment, if someone comes to me for help I will do my level best to help them if I can and will continue to do so as long as they are willing to truely try. It’s easy to sit and judge someone while crying foul and saying they are judging someone else.. the pot calling the kettle black. It’s easy to claim that you feel compassion for someone while sitting on your duff and not doing anything to help a person when in need. By not at least trying to help someone when you see them in need, especially when they come to you for help, you’re just as guilty as the person who’s abusing them. I will not walk past or ignore a person in need. You know, you lead by example. If other people see women who have been in or are in the same situation standing up for themselves and saying I deserve better and moving their lives in a positive direction.. maybe this will help them to take a step towards that. This can not be achieved by sitting online bullying me because you maybe see fault with yourself or because you don’t have my strength or share my views. Not to say you don’t have great qualities in other areas. Fact is, I didn’t come on this website to look for or pick a fight with anyone. I come here because I thought I’d found women supporting other women or offering empowerment to each other. I don’t need you to put me down or judge me, call me a lier or spew venom at me to make yourself feel better or more imporant. I’ve been though this all before, only at the hands of a man. Same script, different actor. I refuse to roll over for him and I will not do it for you. I come from a family that’s always helped people. As far as I can remember my parents have been taking in people, feeding people, offering support and caring. I don’t intend to change and I don’t intend to be made to feel bad for it by you or anyone else. God bless you and may you always be led along the path of happiness, success and peace. REPLY * Nine DeuceJanuary 28, 2013 at 8:47 PM # I support women, Mary. That includes placing the blame where it belongs: with abusive men, not women who do not have the wherewithal to leave them. Were I to find myself in an abusive relationship and needed to get out, I’d rather stay with someone like me than you, as you clearly seem to think women who have been abused are nuisances and fools. While I understand everything you’ve said, the question remains: why have you written 2500 words in defense of the idea that abused women are failing by not leaving abusive men, instead of 2500 words about what’s wrong with abusive men’s behavior? REPLY * MaryJanuary 29, 2013 at 5:26 AM # Honey, I never said men weren’t to blame, as I stated we are ALL responible for our actions. No one asks to be beaten. However I said I focus more of my efforts on those who allow themselves to be helped. Your counting how many words I type doesn’t change that. Not to say that the ones who aren’t willing to fight aren’t worth anything. I love them and it hurts me to see them suffer. I think sugarpuss sees what I mean when she said a lot of women would rather live in bondage. I really respect you as a person and a sister, but I do take offense to your attacking me because I focus my efforts on those who are willing or able to work towards helping themselves. It’s not like I can Force the others. I can’t go about kidnapping and bullying people. So my efforts are best used for the willing. Some of the others will come around later.. and sadly, some won’t. It aches my heart just to think about it. I believe standing up is a plan. If no one stood up black people would still be in slavery. Men treat us woman as how we are willing to let ourselves be treated. It’s up to us stronger females to try to protect and help the weaker if we can and set the tone. Nine, I wouldn’t offer you to stay in my home dear. I never put anyone in my home if can help it. Dispite the venom that you spit at me I’d still make an effort to help you if I could and put you in a hotel or apartment. Don’t know if you’d show me the same kindness. You still didn’t answer my questions. Counted the words, but skipped over the questions. Futher more I think you see what I’m saying, but you’d rather spend your time twisting my words and putting new ones in my mouth in and effort to bully me and make yourself right. I never said abused females were totally to blame, nuisances and fools. If I’d said that it would imply that I was to blame for my situation. DUHHH. But we do have to take responsibility for our lives and situations. If something is not right then WE must make the effort to change it. Btw, takes sugarpuss, you rock girl. I’m glad you seem to see what I’m trying to say. You hit it dead on. I’m NOT trying to put anyone down or belittle them. * sassyJanuary 28, 2013 at 10:25 AM # Nine, about Mary, Most people don’t want to go the source of a problem. Like there’s nothing they can do about it, so to them it is what it is. These types just skim over and fix the result of said problem over and over again instead of backing up to where the stink is coming from. REPLY 645. HecateJanuary 23, 2013 at 12:26 AM # Really good point, Sugarpuss. I’d say that not only do men get away with expressing anger and/ or being awarded for it. They are also admired for acting on it. On the ‘right to feel.’ That is spot-on. Any abusive authority will tell you that they maintain control over the oppressed by convincing them that self-actualization is to their detriment. Deeply felt emotion leads one not just to enlightenment but to genuine empowerment and authenticity. So it’s also funny that women are stereotyped as ‘irrationally emotional.’ Strong emotion is undeniably a strength. It reminds me of that trilogy ‘His Dark Materials.’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials. Very good read. Though it is targeted at more of a teen audience, there are some important and subtle messages in between the lines for adults. The author heavily criticizes religion, just calling it ‘the authority’ in the book. The point of this authority was to erase feeling and soulfulness in people, by killing off their animal ‘familiars’ or ”dæmons’ When we are out of touch with ourselves, the abusers win. That’s why I prefer the term ‘self-possessed’ as opposed to fluffy, overused ones like ‘confidence’ or self esteem. There’s something very focused about emotion that gives it its power. Witches definitely know something about that. Emotion is focused intention. That ultimately helps us attain important goals in life we may not otherwise get around to. At one point, when I was 17 years old, I wrote a very angry and yes, hateful, letter to my grandfather who had sexually abused me for years as a child. And guess what? Before I had even thought of actually sending it, he had a heart attack pretty much around exactly the same time. Coincidence? I’d like to think it wasn’t… I’m quite happy to send my hate in whichever direction it’s most needed :D Aiming it at stockbrokers is fun. I’m thinking all magick practitioners should get together and see about doing hoodoo on them. Let’s experiment! I love to think that, for example, that time when George Bush was stupidly choking on a pretzel, someone was in fact hexing him. REPLY 646. SugarpussJanuary 24, 2013 at 5:54 PM # Hecate said: I’d say that not only do men get away with expressing anger and/ or being awarded for it. They are also admired for acting on it. Indeed. But anger is just one of many things that women are forced to repress, and men are celebrated for indulging in. Society demands that we are to be in complete control 100% of the time. The Female burden consists of impossible standards that would crush & devour the spirit of your average, weak-willed male. Joe Schmoe has the self-control of a fat kid in a cake factory because, like all men, he has never been forced to live a truly disciplined life. […]So it’s also funny that women are stereotyped as ‘irrationally emotional.’ Yes, that’s complete horseshit. Men are constantly going on shooting sprees in schools, shopping malls, and other public places. They get into physical altercations with each other over stupid crap like rival sports teams. When they aren’t fighting themselves, they are paying to watch other men fight. And then there’s the matter of war. All of these things are proof of how irrational, emotional and intellectually retarded the male species can be. I love to think that, for example, that time when George Bush was stupidly choking on a pretzel, someone was in fact hexing him. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!1111!!! I’dcompletely forgotten about the notorious Dubya pretzel-choking incident. All of the hilarious memories just washed over me. Thanks! REPLY 647. HecateJanuary 24, 2013 at 10:18 PM # That’s another great point, Sugarpuss. We are held up to unreasonable standards and we are expected to be the pillars of society. I’d say the military would help males with that discipline problem, but it just seems to make them even more sociopathic. Mmm hmm. ‘Horseshit’ is definitely the male standard. And that Dubya, such a little monkeyshit he was eh? And still is… REPLY 648. TJanuary 28, 2013 at 5:09 AM # I originally had many sleep-deprived pages of praise here to lavish. Instead I think this will work – Thank you. REPLY 649. sassyJanuary 28, 2013 at 5:20 PM # Andrew November 18, 2012 at 3:24 AM # You are a freeloader. The only reason you have any rights is because men gave them to you. Couple years back you would be selling your ass for a living if you aren’t right now. The fact is if men weren’t nice you would be be down back in the old days. When the shit hits the fan your always hiding behind a man to protect you. You have too. I still cannot stop thinking about this inhuman pile of shit that posted this. This guy was a freeloader the moment he was conceived hiding safe in the womb of a woman. What kind of parent ends up with a son like this? Who needs to hide behind a man when you can be a woman the size of a linebacker? What about my 357 MAG I carry in my truck? Who needs to hide with THAT in their hand? hmmmmm??????? What an all assuming, arrogant, undeserving rim worshiper! I would LOVE to meet this ass hat face to face and tell him how many men I HAVEN’T EVER hidden behind after I take him down to the concrete and grind his face off ……. but now that wouldn’t be very lady like would it? REPLY 650. SugarpussJanuary 28, 2013 at 9:39 PM # Alright. This shit is getting heavy. I’m almost too tired to add my two cents (this learning to drive thing is emotionally draining), but I feel like I need to saysomething. @Mary: I understand your frustration, but the problem is MEN. Men are the problem, never forget that. We live in a society that has brainwashed, manipulated & tortured women to the point where a large sum of us are completely divorced from reality; just mentally numb for the sake of self-preservation, really. But, at the same time, I get where you’re coming from. I think you’re just very anxious to see more women putting their foot down, yes? I feel that too. Freedom isn’t free; it will cost the Female sex a great deal of suffering to obtain it. I think a lot of women would rather exist in bondage than face their greatest fear (male retaliation), even IF standing up to men would ensure the safety & well- being of future generations. At this point, there doesn’t really seem to be any sort of ‘plan’; I think that is what frustrates me the most. It’s all well and good to talk about how much men suck (and trust me, I enjoy it), but this isn’t getting us anywhere. All talk, no action. This is why we fail. Okay, that went off in left field a bit, but I’m tired of being the Female Patton/Braveheart with no army behind me. LOL REPLY 651. SugarpussJanuary 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM # 92 said: […] why have you written 2500 words in defense of the idea that abused women are failing by not leaving abusive men, instead of 2500 words about what’s wrong with abusive men’s behavior? Because we already know what’s wrong with men and why they behave the way they do; testosterone poisoning. LOL In all seriousness, I believe that all attempts to crack the male mystique code, or try to ‘fix’ them or whatever, is both pointless and a HUGE waste of time. I mean, who cares why a mosquito sucks blood out of your arm on hot summer evenings? You have to SMACK it! Else it’s just gonna keep on suckin’ your blood while you sit there and contemplate it’s motives. REPLY o Nine DeuceJanuary 29, 2013 at 5:41 PM # There was a higher victim-blaming quotient than I can stomach. REPLY 652. SugarpussJanuary 29, 2013 at 5:55 PM # Mary isn’t victim-blaming; she’s just frustrated. I’ve been there, I Netflix and EarthLink combined…I doubt very much that every man isn’t contributing to it in some form. 12 BILLION + in the U.S. alone…..you need to feed your CRAP to someone who will still believe it. REPLY 668. HecateFebruary 6, 2013 at 12:56 AM # Sugarpuss and gracemargaret – I am in awe of your awesomeness :) REPLY 669. ismeFebruary 6, 2013 at 1:34 AM # Eric, you recognise that you tend to be defensive or upset when people point out that sexism exists, or that men cause it. How will you react when you realise that you personally have contributed to the problem? Perhaps not recognising it on a conscious level, perhaps going to great lengths to avoid recognising it. You, like every member of every oppressive group, have done somethings sometimes to oppress people. You can try to minimise that, you can try to outweigh that by doing good deeds or whatever, but for that not to be true, you would need to be perfect, to by totally unaffected by the same societal influences which have resulted in the rest of the oppressive class thinking and acting the way they do. REPLY 670. gracemargaretFebruary 6, 2013 at 11:10 AM # “I was not aware that those last issues you brought up were still issues under debate. I can’t imagine any sane person who would argue that I women should not have those rights. Everyone should be able to live unmolested.” Eric, I’ve seen close friends blamed by their own family for being molested or sexually assaulted, telling them that they must have deserved being assaulted or provoked the assault. This is very common. We have law enforcement and government officials telling us that if women didn’t walk around dressed like “sluts” they wouldn’t get raped, and even trying to define rape as only rape if you fought back hard enough to try to stop it. If you didn’t, although you were forced, it’s not rape. These articles and links might help you understand the scope of the problem: http://www.thenation.com/article/172643/ten-things-end-rape-culture http://www.broadstreetreview.com/index.php/main/article/male_sex_abuse_an d_female_naivete/ http://www.change.org/petitions/editor-who-blamed-lara-logan-for-her- gang-rape-must-go http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/blog/entry/eight-reasons-why- victim-blaming-needs-to-stop-writers-activists-and-surviv http://www.change.org/petitions/tell-the-new-york-times-to-apologize-for- blaming-a-child-for-her-gang-rape REPLY 671. JustinFebruary 6, 2013 at 6:11 PM # The guy in the airport was just loud and stupid. Most men are stupid but most people are stupid. Most women are stupid too. Tell me you have never had to listen to a dumb woman talk and talk on her phone about boring crap that nobody cares about. Most people are stupid. I know many well informed very articulate caring men. And most people would surprise you. I knew a guy who I thought was just completely obnoxious, treated his girlfriend like crap, cheated on her. This man would buy almost two hundred bucks worth of groceries per week that he’d go out and give to the homeless in our city. He never talked about. Just did it. I guess it comes down to what your definition of a good person is. I mean you’re clearly a lesbian. Right. Uh. You know if I wasn’t a man and I wasn’t attracted to men I might overall hate men too. It’s hard to not be biased when you are something. I encounter man hate sometimes but it’s pretty infrequent. It usually upsets me because the women that hate men are mostly the more intelligent interesting females. I encounter a lot of female hate too. Most of it is unknowing though. Most men don’t realize they are being unfair to women. It all comes down to this: You don’t know what it’s like to be a man. I understand you don’t care. After all, why should you try to understand what it’s like to be a man. But that’s the problem. Women and men don’t try to understand each other. Another issue is this: Many women want to be with idiot men. It’s a fact and you honestly should be equally upset with your ‘fellow’ women. Many women like being objectified and used. That’s what has never worked about feminism. It’s a movement encompassing about half the people on this planet. Most women are stupid. But most men are stupid too. REPLY o Nine DeuceFebruary 6, 2013 at 11:29 PM # Justin — Wait, you mean to tell me that there’s such a thing as a dude who gives to charity but is still a misogynist? I can’t believe it. Could that possibly be due to the fact that in a male supremacist hierarchy, men tend to mistreat women (and not even notice they’re doing so!) simply because they can? FYI, I’m not a lesbian. I’m married to a dude. What, exactly, gave you the idea that I was a lesbian? REPLY * VonnieFebruary 22, 2013 at 10:05 PM # I just discovered this. Apparently I am 3 years late to this and wish I had found it three years earlier. I agree 100%. I am sick to death of men and find their weakness as a gender really tiresome. From war mongering to rape to their defensiveness and insecurity everything about men turns me off. I am bisexual but while I can by physically attracted to men just from biology I find that as I get older I find myself less and less attracted to men on any level emotionally or intellectually and so by default then their physicalness turns me off. I can still find the odd actor attractive enough and find men as individuals can be okay in my small circle of friends, as a gender as a whole, as a group, I find them weak and pitiful. I was raped, molested, and abused by members of not only my family but another. While I recognize women can be abusers, I think it is important to point out all five people who abused me and raped me were men. I find that men as a whole are pathetic who are obsessed with sex and how to get it. whether consensual or not. I find men are loud, abrasive, and do everything in their power to make women feel less. There are the alpha male, idiot, self-important, “i got swagger” always on the cell phone, I have a penis, let me show it to you neandrathals and then there are those “Nice guys” that tend to have this “poor me” thing going on where in every woman who doesn’t succumb to their nice guy charms must automatically like douchebags and is therefore just a tramp and as superficial as men when women are defined by their gender roles and women who like douchebags have little autonomy over the matter as everything in society created by MEN has told women that alpha males and the patriarchy are desirable. Not to mention “nice guys” still want to get into our pants and still are demanding of attention instead of treating women like human beings. Because as a gender they fail. They are just the weaker sex and it’s time crap changed. I’m done with men. They’ve had a go at running things for a while and they’ve failed miserably because they suck as a gender. Women will do it better. For starters we’ve already been smart enough to see where men fail when they can’t. That’s one tick in the right direction. REPLY 672. ismeFebruary 6, 2013 at 10:54 PM # Justin, laying aside the usual false equivalences and other nonsense, do you think men not knowing they are being unfair somehow makes it ok? That people shouldn’t be worried about it, or try to do anything about it? Eric, that paragraph before you say you aren’t trolling? That’s kinda exactly what someone says when they are concern trolling. REPLY 673. JustinFebruary 7, 2013 at 3:13 AM # I’m not sure. Stereotypes I guess, which is evidence of a flawed mentality. Part two of your blog was spot on, and funny. Look, I plan on having kids one day. I’d like to raise my daughter with the feeling that she is numero uno in this world and that she can speak her mind and command people’s attention through doing so. I believe your blog does a lot of good. Certainly it raises my awareness as a male when I’m walking about and interacting with people. But there’s a vibe on here in the comments about you know, feminism being nothing to do with a man and it’s no concern of men so fuck all what we think. Well good luck with that. If you don’t want allies you get enemies. Changing the large percentage of men’s mentalities is impossible though. Eunuchs? Could be fun. Also, I’m not allowed to look at porn. Girlfriend doesn’t let me. REPLY o sassyFebruary 27, 2013 at 3:43 PM # Justin??? YOU are just another fucking massive male LIAR!!! I’ve learned there is nothing a man says that is fucking true anyway, so why the fuck do you post your stupid shit here? Like, Oh yea, my girlfriend doesn’t let me look at porn…blah blah b b b BULLSHIT! We ALL know how that shit works. I know all about the creative ways you fucking ass hats speak in order to attempt to deny that you use porn. I’ve had the crash course in that bullshit speech class! You fucking liar! Not allowed???? So if your girlfriend didn’t say anything, as most of them don’t because they also believe the lie that you can’t help it and are entitled to it, you’d DO IT!!! duh…. ??? How about thinking for yourself you stupid piece of fuck?!?! You basically just admitted you watch porn as far as I’m concerned. Why don’t you try reading up on the issues of porn addiction fuck face?? I hope you become so addicted to it that your precious girlfriend leaves you because your dick doesn’t work for her anymore! Then I hope you get your dick stuck fucking your Fleshlight!! REPLY 674. SugarpussFebruary 7, 2013 at 9:59 AM # Justin said: Most men don’t realize they are being unfair to women. Riiiiiiight. When men tell women what to do with our own fucking bodies, deny us employment, rape us, kill us, stalk us, call us “sluts” and “whores”, and basically had to be forced (by Feminists) to grant us the most basic of human rights…they don’t fucking know what they’re doing? That’s all accidental assholery? Uh-huh. Fuck off, cocksmoker. REPLY 675. gracemargaretFebruary 7, 2013 at 5:59 PM # “Look, I plan on having kids one day.” Justin. Please don’t. I can’t imagine a man who believes “Many women like being objectified and used. That’s what has never worked about feminism” would make a good father to a daughter OR a son. REPLY 676. tonisvacayFebruary 10, 2013 at 3:04 AM # Everyday, I’m realizing how much I hate men. I try not to choke on my rage. I used to think that I don’t hate men or masculinity. What I hate is the misogyny. I hate all the extra things I have to do to move in the world that men don’t have to do. I hate that during the summer time after I workout and I’m hot and sweaty and that I have to put on jacket and be uncomfortable in the futile hope I won’t be street harassed. I hate all the steps I have to take when I go out, leave work or got to class at night to protect myself. I hate how no one seems to care that a 1000 women a year are murdered by their husbands/boyfriends. I hate that women are blamed when a man rape them. I hate how women are still assumed by men to responsible for the majority of the housework and child rearing even when both are working. I hate how this low and sometimes high grade fear that women live under is considered normal. I hate the ways in which women mutilate their bodies for men who will eventually trade them in for a younger model. I hate how prostituted women are criminalized but johns aren’t. I hate women are hurt in porn and how those now pornified men inflict their porn ways on the bodies of the women they supposedly care about it. I hate how men can only imagine the horror of rape in context of if it happens to someone they know rather than seeing rape as a crime against humanity. I hate how that it seems that most men equate masculinity with misogyny. I hate how men call women sluts and whores when they’re the ones trying to fuck everything and buying sex. I hate how insurance companies cover Viagara and penis implants but won’t cover contraception, maternity or mammograms and yes that is even with Obamacare. The number killer of women is heart disease. What causes heart disease besides diet? Stress. What causes stress? Living in a world of low grade fear. I hate how some men are so invested in misogyny that they are willing to destroy their humanity and kills all chance of any true intimacy. So, I hate men. I can literally can count on one hand the men I don’t hate. REPLY 677. MimiFebruary 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM # @tonisvacay Agree!! I feel the same way!! What I hate the most is when people will act like theres no problem at all for women when theres clearly a big problem and will use crazy excuses to justify the problems women go through. Hate this society, hate men. I wish I could take over the world and change everything. REPLY 678. SugarpussFebruary 11, 2013 at 3:07 AM # Oh god, oh god…. here it comes… heeeeeere it fucking comes…. Sugarpuss explodes in: 3 2 Justin said: […] But there’s a vibe on here in the comments about you know, feminism being nothing to do with a man and it’s no concern of men so fuck all what we think. 1! Listen, you goddamned wanker, this is a Feminist blog, not Spike TV. I know your privileged ass thinks everything should be all about you & your rusty scrotum, but the cookie crumbles a little differently here. For once in your irrelivent life, you’ve found a group of women who refuse to stand on their heads to appease you and make you feel like the SUPER- DUPER SPECIAL Daddy-o of Pimpocity. You poor fucking thing. It’s not enough that the male POV is ALL we ever fucking hear all over the damned television, radio & internet…you want Feminist spaces to cater to you as well? You want YET ANOTHER podium to prop your thick ass upon? FUCK THAT. You pricks certainly have proved that you don’t give a shit what women think…but we’re suppose to give a damn about your little hurt fee-fees because you can’t permeate every single inch of cyberspace with your Oh- so-important male perspective? FUCK OFF + Die of ass cancer. If you don’t want allies you get enemies. Nice threat, but aren’t we already enemies? Aren’t men already killing, raping & torturing women & girls en masse? I don’t know where you’re from, but in my neck of the woods, that’s not something you would do to your friends. Besides,no man can ever be an “ally” because that would involve dethroning themselves & their brethren. Being the notoriously selfish fucks that you are (as your comment so clearly demonstrates), the likelihood of that happening is, well, yeah, NOT GONNA FUCKING HAPPEN. Men will fight tooth & nail to retain their position of power over women. Men just like you. Changing the large percentage of men’s mentalities is impossible though. Aw shucks. Too bad I don’t give a FUCK about any man’s “mentality”. Unlike some incredibly naive LibFems, I personally have no interest in changing men. I don’t attempt to polish turds, I merely flush them. Also, I’m not allowed to look at porn. Girlfriend doesn’t let me. Your GF’s withholding of permission is the only thing stopping you? Wow. What a catch you are. Hope she drops a pound of arsenic in your Red Bull. REPLY o sassyFebruary 27, 2013 at 3:27 PM # !!!!!!!!!!!!Hooooo!!!! Good God I love this woman!!!!!!!!!! (about Justin) Sugarpuss RULES!!! SUGARPUSS FOR PRESIDENT!!!…..wait… that’ll not happen cause she’s a woman…. fuck REPLY * SugarpussFebruary 28, 2013 at 9:32 PM # LMAO! Sassy, you’re cracking me up. REPLY 679. lizorFebruary 11, 2013 at 9:41 AM # @tonisvacay – Thank you for that excellent inventory. I agree with every word. REPLY 680. lizorFebruary 11, 2013 at 9:43 AM # Oh wow. I can comment again! Somehow my comments were disappearing into the ether for the past week. ND – thank you for the Cynthia Enloe recommendation. This is exactly what I want to be reading right now. REPLY 681. MimiFebruary 12, 2013 at 1:48 PM # I love how some men come on here thinking they can change our minds and try to prove their point yet fail miserably and get told off big time lawwwl REPLY 682. sneekybunnyFebruary 13, 2013 at 5:18 AM # It is very entertaining. It always makes me think of a nature show in which a particularly dim witted antelope wanders into a pride of lioness. REPLY 683. SugarpussFebruary 13, 2013 at 5:28 PM # Castration…lalalala….castration…lalalalala…..castration…..lalalalala….. REPLY o none of those pathetic idoots ings business spyfor menFebruary 20, 2013 at 9:53 PM # They are all idiots. Some apathetic than others. Some more pathetic than others. And in my case it was betraying women. Pathological liars. Psychotic sociopaths. Ingrates for women. REPLY * sassyFebruary 21, 2013 at 10:18 AM # Ohhhh SO true, so true…..the fall of “man” is here. REPLY 684. SugarpussFebruary 14, 2013 at 9:54 PM # For Justin, Eric, and any other shithead male who dares to come here and complain about all of the “hate”: http://mashable.com/2013/02/12/facebook-rape-threats/ REPLY 685. grace margaretFebruary 15, 2013 at 6:21 PM # “If you don’t want allies you get enemies.” You better be nice to us or ELSE. As usual, a threat gets snuck in there. I was just reading an article by feminist author Hanna Rosin, who shared one of the typical emails she gets from angry men: “Keep spreading your feminism , eventually men are going to turn on women, and it will not be pretty, then you will see why women were under man’s control in the past.” REPLY o SugarpussFebruary 16, 2013 at 12:10 PM # […]eventually men are going to turn on women[…] Why do they keep saying stupid shit like this? Men turned on women long ago. It’s a very ancient hatred. Then some modern-day prick tries to play like women are the ones who started it. Nope. Don’t think so. Consult your nearest religious text; Bible, Torah, Quran, etc. Needless to say, most of these keyboard warriors still live in Mom’s basement, and couldn’t put the smackdown on a flea. Lulz. REPLY * HecateFebruary 21, 2013 at 7:26 PM # Here’s something that may make everyone feel better :) Feminist horror film recommended by my filmmaker friend in Ireland: http://www.movie2k.to/American-Mary-watch-movie-2441436.html Very much in the spirit of ‘Ms. 45.’ REPLY 686. gracemargaretFebruary 22, 2013 at 4:40 PM # “Why do they keep saying stupid shit like this?” Because there are people who believe that women are SO free in The West that we’ve become spoiled, pampered, privileged bitches. Because men can’t openly mutilate our genitals or legally throw acid in our faces (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/parents-who-killed- daughter-with-acid-say-it-was-her-destiny-8282835.html) or force ten- year-old daughers to marry 50-year-old men anymore. Like in so many other countries in the 21st Century. Oh, yeah, and in 1992 it became illegal in the U.S. for a man to rape his wife. Yep, in 1992. In The United States of America. In The West. progress, bitchez! be grateful! (or else). REPLY o SugarpussFebruary 22, 2013 at 10:47 PM # You know, a few months back (well, it could have been a year or so. I don’t recall), I read a story about a dude who threw acid in a woman’s face because she wouldn’t have anything to do with him. The fucker was married! With kids! REPLY 687. NaomiFebruary 24, 2013 at 4:57 PM # Please. For all of humanity, stop. I am a feminist, and this is completely sexist. Women and Men are EQUAL. Stop saying that you’re better. You are the obnoxious, arrogant, entitled, violent, stinky, crass, loudmouthed, stupid, craven, bragadocious, thoughtless, unreflective, abusive, selfish, lowbrow, willfully ignorant asshole. Not men. You are so entitled, like you deserve special treatment. Men and women were created equal. You give women in general a bad name. You’re not a feminist. You don’t want equality. You know what you are? A FEMINAZI. Rush Limbaugh was talking about you. You give us a bad name. -An ACTUAL feminist. Who wants ACTUAL equality. REPLY o Nine DeuceFebruary 24, 2013 at 10:25 PM # I can tell you’re a REAL feminist because you quote Rush Limbaugh and you’re so respectful toward women you don’t agree with. REPLY o SugarpussFebruary 24, 2013 at 10:31 PM # http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-21014.html ^^^Your friends? REPLY o MaryFebruary 25, 2013 at 9:21 AM # I came to this website and joined because I thought it was a site where I could relate to women of like mindedness, find support, understanding and encouragement. But all I ever see is hatred being spewed at everyone and each other. Not everyone is religious, not everyone believes in God and that is their right. It’s even your right to do what you want even if you do believe in God. For God gives us free will do right, and free will to do wrong. But one cannot go to heaven w/ hatred in their heart and that includes hatred for one’s fellow human being, be it man or female. Since I came I’ve been attacked for sharing my views and seen many people attacked for whatever they said. It’s ok not to agree, But to come at a total stranger w/ such venom is something that is foreigin to me. Maybe because this thing never happened in my family when I was raised. Not to say that ours was a perfect one. Far from it. But I just never witness such blantant display of out and out meanness or bitterness towards everything and everyone. I try my best to love everyone and treat people as I want to be treated. Granted there are times when I snap too and I do feel bad for maybe hurting another person. But here you’re snapped at for breathing. It’s as if great pleasure is taken in it and the deeper you can wond a person the better it is. True, people come and say things they shouldn’t but how much better are you showing yourself or gender to be if you spit hatred back at them. What happened to adult like converstation. I think there is a way to get a point across w/out name calling and cursing. In any cause instead of me leaving feeling supported, understood and nurtured, as I thought I would, I felt belittled, hated and thought to be worthless. This may seem foolish to some as some people don’t tend to care what you say to them or think about them. However my feeling were hurt to the very core and the dispointment and let down I felt was astronomical. I don’t think any person should be made to feel this way by another human being under any circumstances. The word bullying comes to mind, but isn’t just quite enough to explain it. The things that I’ve been through and witnessed in life led me to this site. These things and the things that I’m going though and witness led me to believe I’d find a friend. All this combined w/ the utter hatred I see and the hurtful verbal abuse at myself and anyone on this site is what made me decided to unsubscriped today and leave it behind. Having been verbally abused in the past, to have it take place here is too much of an emotional burden that brings back past pains and creates new ones. I feel sorry for anyone who steps in the path or stumbles across this site they will be eaten alive by certain people. I also feel sorry for those who are the attackers, for how horrible it must be to go through life feeling nothing but hatred and ill will towards others. Ultimately I feel no anger towards anyone here, On the contrary, I wish for you all to find peace, happiness and joy. May God bless you all and give you what you need to find this. btw, thanks surgarpuss for your understanding. REPLY * SugarpussFebruary 25, 2013 at 2:09 PM # O_o What a most peculiar comment. Complaints of high decibel FemRage & (Oh noez!) gratuitous profanity….followed by a shoutout of gratitude tomoi?! WTF? I am, by far, the biggest offender on all counts. It makes no sense, really. And shit. You’re a Godbag holly-rollin’ fool. Consider all “understanding” retracted. xoxo, Sugarpuss, The Atheist Pagan REPLY * SugarpussFebruary 25, 2013 at 2:14 PM # *holy-rollin’ :D REPLY * MimiMarch 5, 2013 at 8:28 PM # You’re pagan!! lol same here!! =O REPLY * CPBFebruary 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM # If there was any doubt Mary was a man before I think this: “instead of me leaving feeling supported, understood and nurtured, as I thought I would…”, has sealed the deal. Is this the same victim blaming Mary who’s been cluttering up this blog with god-fearing, nonsensical rubbish? You thought ‘teh wimminz’ would coddle and nurture you after all the horrible “verbal abuse” you suffered, eh? What a surprise, bruh! More self-aggrandizing posts ftw! REPLY * lizorFebruary 27, 2013 at 8:49 AM # Nice catch on the “nurturing” bit! REPLY * meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeMarch 14, 2013 at 9:51 AM # These men thought by telling me that they were no longer feeling financially inferior to me due to having millions ofdollars that i would still want something to do with themwhile i kicked their asses quk to the curb not wantito ever deal with them again. now, there are sme of you women that want a deep pocket. Let them know and sadomwasochist may look you up. There were many men like that with me. They are all dumbasses. They get so inferior about money that they attacked me due to me not waging their pockets. Destroying my ability at doing the profession for money that they all felt inferior to to begin with. Because i made more money than them. REPLY * sassyFebruary 26, 2013 at 10:11 AM # I beg to differ about not being able to go to heaven with hatred in the heart. That is simply not true. Religion has told us that….Christianity, does not. It is written, every person that believes in His name and purpose will be saved….even with the hatred inside the heart. No one is sinless. No not one. One sin or shortcoming is no different that another. They are all in the same category. So don’t be found judging these women. Their hatred is valid. I implore you to go through what some women have endured with certain men….I pray you don’t have to, but you will bring it upon yourself if you go around judging others. Many times God will see to it that you suffer exactly what you are judging others for. YOU should know this….and if you don’t, then your time to suffer is near. REPLY o CPBFebruary 26, 2013 at 9:51 AM # Oh, all of the male approval you are garnering with your “what about teh peniz!” stance. You bring great honor to your conservative, batshit crazy brethren. Bravo! REPLY o femmeforeverJune 10, 2013 at 10:49 AM # Oy. Naomi, Naomi, Naomi. Please tell me you are a teen because otherwise I just might become despondent. Let me see if I can help. You are in a room with Charley Manson (Google him) or any of dozens of his brethren. When he looks at you all he sees is his murder-orgasm. You will NEVER reason with him on any subject because all he wants is his orgasm. You can’t negotiate with someone who refuses to see your personhood. Who hates you so much that he wants to annihilate you, rob you of your life (physical or psychological). rob you of your dignity. Your womanity. Vaporize you. Terrorize you. Enslave you and all women forever. This is like confronting a burglar who is breaking into your house with “please mr burglar don’t burgle me? You don’t do that because it’s ridiculous. No, you pick something up and clobber him with it or shoot him because that is the ONLY way you will stop him. HE WILL NOT STOP ON HIS OWN. You cannot teach a terrorist the fine points of reason. You DO NOT negotiate with terrorists. To your point, yes we were all created equal and then MEN CHOOSE MINUTE BY MINUTE to pursue evil and destruction willingly and enthusiastically. They are proud of it. It is who they WANT to be. They LIKE hating, murdering, raping, enslaving you in marriage and then denying you every single thing you need to thrive. It’s fun for them. It’s sport. This makes them less than BY CHOICE. Oh yeah, and then they BLAME/HATE YOU SOME MORE for being so hopelessly and indisputably superior which was the problem in the first place. To summarize. Men and women. It is NOT a misunderstanding. MEN HATE YOU. You will not dissuade them. Charlie/any other male: “What’s that you say Naomi? You want to discuss our relationship like adults?” Naomi: “Yes sir. please”. Charlie/any other man: Slash. Stab. Bleed. Die. That was fun where are the next 500 Naomi’s. I’m gonna need a bigger cell to store all my dead- woman trophies. REPLY 688. gracemargaretFebruary 25, 2013 at 2:42 PM # @sneakybunny “It is very entertaining. It always makes me think of a nature show in which a particularly dim witted antelope wanders into a pride of lioness.” That reminds me of some progressive dude commenting once on a forum that promotes Reason and Progressive Values (or something), saying that men’s ‘natural pedatory sexuality’ is comparable to lions hunting gazelles. Which proves the natural order of things is for men to be sexually predatory toward women. Someone pointed out to him that in his scenario, the hunters were all females (the lioness does the hunting for the pride) and gazelles are actually both male and female. And they’re hunting in order to feed themselves and their cubs, not have sex. It was pretty funny. REPLY o sneekybunnyFebruary 25, 2013 at 8:07 PM # Oh god that’s awesome! What an idiot. Evo psych is such a load of crap.:) REPLY 689. SugarpussFebruary 25, 2013 at 6:27 PM # http://jezebel.com/5986756/the-lady+draft-may-be-in-our-future? Why do these delusional LibFems continue to engage in the Women Are Equal Now™ roleplay fantasy? Plus, since when are women responsible for fighting mens’ battles? Unlike those born with penis privilege, we are forced to fight a war every fucking day of our lives, cradle to grave, on our own home soil. No ‘enlistment’ necessary. As soon as a female child is old enough to crawl, she is in danger of being physically, sexually violated by some scum-sucking male PIECE OF SHIT. What of that battle? The fight to not become a piece of public property is a war that lasts a lifetime. And now, we’re supposed to put our lives on the line for the very men who kill us every day (literally & figuratively). FUCK THAT. FUCK Liberal Feminists dumbasses who buy into this “equality” bullshit that will NEVER work because men DO NOT play fair. FUCK the MRAs who probably wanked to this rubbish. And then there was this story: http://jezebel.com/5986693/college-rape- survivor-faces-potential-expulsion-for-intimidating-her-rapist? Ah yes, my point exactly. We’re NOT equal. REPLY 690. HecateFebruary 26, 2013 at 8:29 PM # And now for some laughs! Love that site :D

REPLY 691. btvgftbhdfrnydfrnydrFebruary 27, 2013 at 6:34 PM # This is a sexist article against men. Stop being prejudiced against men if you see ten examples of it when there are more then 4 billion of them out there. Actually there are more mean women out there then men. Stop taking your feelings of being oppressed by the few mean men in your life against the whole race. Your probably hysterical. Trust me I know I’m doing a research paper on Sigmund Freud a psychologist. YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE AND go TO A DOCTOR! MOTHERFUCKER! REPLY o Nine DeuceFebruary 28, 2013 at 6:11 PM # BUTTKICKER 69?! REPLY * Silent Agony (@DiscordantFlesh)February 28, 2013 at 8:13 PM # oh 92 HOW COULD U??? HOW COULD I SLIP UP ON EXERCISING YOUR FEMALE PRIVILEGE, HOW? WHEN U KNEW KNEW KNEW U KNEW THAT MEN WERE OPPRESSED BUT YOU DID IT ANYWAY HOW COULD U? TROOLOLOLOLOL REPLY o sassyFebruary 28, 2013 at 6:48 PM # OOOOOh!……….you are going to get it….. I can’t wait. Where is Sugarpuss!! Sick em! REPLY o SugarpussFebruary 28, 2013 at 9:24 PM # […] if you see ten examples of it […] Ten examples of what? Last time I checked, there was a hell of a lot more rapes, murders, child molestations & wife beatings being perpetrated than a mere ten. Unless you meant to say ten per hour (and that it one BIG fucking underestimate), I’d suggest you pull your head out of your ass and oh, I dunno….WATCH THE FUCKING NEWS. Actually there are more mean women out there then men Oh, really now? What exactly is your definition of “mean”? Let’s think about all the famous tyrants throughout history…what was between their legs? COCK. Who raped & pillaged? MEN. Who invented the atomic bomb? MEN. Who was allowed, by law, to murder an adulterous spouse? MEN. Which sex is legally allowed to marry and rape a child in many third-world countries? MEN. Who is throwing battery acid in the faces of those who reject their sexual advances? MEN. Who engages in mass shootings at schools, shopping malls, movie theaters & gyms? MEN. Who is the target demographic of violent video games, movies & other forms of hateful media? The deformed creature known as The Male Sex. Need I go on? Stop taking your feelings of being oppressed by the few mean men in your life against the whole race. See above, shitface. You’re all scum. Every single man has one thing in common with his brethren; the hatred of women. It’s the one thing you can all agree on. Your entire comment is a perfect example of this. […] I’m doing a research paper on Sigmund Freud[…] Oh, the guy with the “Penis Envy” theory? heh If only he were alive today….how would he explain all of those male-to-female sexual reassignment surgeries? Men hate what they cannot (and never will) be. YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE AND go TO A DOCTOR! MOTHERFUCKER! Do you ever tuck your dick between your legs, while gazing into a mirror, and say “I’d fuck me”? REPLY o lizorMarch 1, 2013 at 2:42 PM # Thanks so much gobbeldigookname! That was really really funny! Do you do this routine live in a little organ grinder’s monkey outfit? REPLY o CPBMarch 2, 2013 at 2:15 PM # Women are mean to me :'( REPLY o lizorMarch 6, 2013 at 6:31 AM # Dear can’tbearsedtomakeupaname: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2013/02/22/11-signs-you-might-be- an-mra/ REPLY o lizorMarch 6, 2013 at 6:33 AM # @ can’tbearsedtomakeupascreenname: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2013/02/22/11-signs-you-might-be- an-mra/ REPLY o lizorMarch 6, 2013 at 6:35 AM # Shit. Sorry for the double post. This interface is glitchy. REPLY o Hawkshaw21June 8, 2013 at 10:22 AM # Dear Btvgftbhdfrnydfrnydr: “Actually there are more mean women out there then men” Here’s a dose of reality: 96% of all homicides are committed by MEN 99.5% of all sex offenses are committed by MEN 99% of all robberies are committed by MEN 97% of all drug offenses are committed by MEN 96% of prisoners in federal jail ARE MEN. These stats are from the Correctional Service Canada website. If women are so “mean” how come we only makeup 4% of the prison population? PS you’re a fucking idiot REPLY * CPBJune 11, 2013 at 10:40 AM # Because when women are mean they put you on hold. When men are mean they rape, murder, torture, and commit genocide. REPLY * JessicaHunterMay 29, 2015 at 10:13 AM # Women are mean for not doing exactly what men demand they do! Men are mean of they kill a man, because rape isn’t real to men. Unless it happens to men in prison. Men are idiots. We won’t ever be equal because Patriarchy brainwashed women too so they believe men are superior….religion is the single biggest Patriarchal lie manifested for women’s slavery. REPLY 692. grace margaretFebruary 28, 2013 at 7:34 PM # “Trust me I know I’m doing a research paper on Sigmund Freud a psychologist.” bwahahahaha!! Sigmund the coke addict who he falsified case studies and flat out made up shit to cover up child abuse and his hatred for women? You know his nose fell apart from his daily use of cocain use? genius REPLY 693. grace margaretFebruary 28, 2013 at 7:54 PM # sorry 4 the typos, I have a bad case of the flu. :P REPLY o Silent Agony (@DiscordantFlesh)February 28, 2013 at 8:51 PM # Get better soon strong brained raddie! (my term for radical feminists) Misogyny is the worst infection of all. REPLY 694. YvonneMarch 1, 2013 at 7:03 AM # Men trot out the argument that men die earlier due to stress as some sort of point about how tough it is to be a man. I just roll my eyes because all it does is prove how weak they are. Omg, you have to work long hours. (A system of patriarchy they created “the breadwinner” not women) imagine working long hours, getting paid less, having to choose between having children and work, having to still come home take care of children, and go about your day everyday in a low grade fear you will be raped or abducted. Stress? Men don’t know the meaning of the word. REPLY o MimiMarch 5, 2013 at 8:24 PM # Soo true!! Half the crap men complain about is created by men but they just point the fingers at women! I hate it whenever guys whine about their issues, it doesn’t even compare to what women go through. Men go around lying like women have it easy but they know women have it a lot harder but they won’t admit it, they want us oppressed and if a woman ever speaks up against rape, double standards etc she’s using “reverse sexism” I heard so many guys use that excuse =/ REPLY 695. SugarpussMarch 2, 2013 at 2:24 PM # I came to she-hulk-smash the trolls, but they disappeared! REPLY o gynodesssMarch 14, 2013 at 12:07 PM # Do you have a blog I could have the pleasure of reading? REPLY 696. SarahMarch 26, 2013 at 8:12 PM # I’m so relieved that I found a place to vent wher I don’t have to placate the egos of some micro-dicked self-entitled assholes! I’ve had justa bout enough of the dumber sex for a entire life time! When i was growing up, I remmember the constant creepy gaze of all my male relatives, one time my uncle (on my spermdonors side even told me my dress was perty and would i sit on his lap?? Ugh I told him to keep his pervy hands to himself. I would call child service if he ever touched me. And gues what? Everybody had the nerve to act like i was the sick one, even my own mother! It was obvious to me even when i was little that she has shockholm syndrome. My dad would mope and act like i hurt his feelings for not wanting tobe around him, like he never thought about holding me gainst the kitchen table and raping me….And my mom would side with him, every time. i’m ashamed to say I gave in after a while and trusted men. I even let one put his nasty smelly cheesedick in me and spurt his gunk, creating yet another priviledged monster to take control of my life. well it wasn’t untill i found porn on his computer( lesbains, i won’t even get into the hypocrasy when it comes to homosexualty) that I decided to take action. I though he loved me but he was to busy objectifying womyn and fantasising about god knows what, so I offered him one last bj and when he was about to come i bit his dick. hard. And while he was screamin and crying like a baby i punched myself in the stomach over and that was that. I went to hospital and he’s in prison for domestic abuse. It hurt alot but I know in my heart it would hurt way worse if i stayed with that prick and forced to raise his son.. REPLY 697. padawanrfboyApril 4, 2013 at 6:20 PM # I shared this on my facebook page, I hope that is cool. Here is what I wrote above the link. It is posts like these that men need to read, the comments as well. Maybe then, they will think about their actions, their behaviour, stop laughing stuff off that friends and other men do. Start cutting relationships with men who are constantly misogynistic and arrogant. Simply speaking out, not tolerating misogynistic horseshit that men do everyday, everywhere. It can be so subtle, and ridiculously overt, but it has to stop, and it starts with us. Women are fed up trying to educate us, it has to start with us educating other males and condemning the behaviour that exists. Every man should be ashamed of the comments on this post I linked, if you want to call them “man haters” so be it, that is your sad little problem. They are just telling the truth! Just flippin stop and think for one second, look at the way men behave in society, open your eyes and look around. Venture out in the world for a few hours and you will run out of fingers to count on the number of men objectifying, degrading, threatning Women, and thats what you see on the street, what goes on behind closed doors is another story, and a violent one. I am a male, I don’t hate myself, but I know the problem lies with us. It is a simple basic fact! Only when men stand behind Women, not in front, not trying to decide or lead for them, hijack their issues and put a male perspective twist on it, can things get better. I can only hope that one day something truly active and progressive happens, but my faith in men is lacking, myself included. Edward The link to my page and the share is here. A great post and just truth, and within all the comments so many Women just echoing the reality of what you posted here. A great post to come across, so salient and real. I see this everyday in my highschool, they are just not full blooded yet. Much respect, Edward REPLY 698. SueApril 21, 2013 at 10:16 PM # The day women stop envy and competing agains other women is the day we’ll rule the world. The day women start raising girls with no repressions we’ll rule the world. The day women prepare themselves to fight mentally psychically and emotionally against men we’ll rule the world. The day women start reading more books and studying more developing all their potential instead of spending money at spa’s and surgeries trying to look better because of their lack of confidence and self-steem….then we’ll rule the world. But listen… The most important thing of all… the day women learn how to be united that’s the day we’ll conquer anything we want. Women just compete and judge each other. The moment we use the word “slut” or “whore” we are already being influenced by the men’s mentally ( machos ). What are you doing today to call your self a true real Woman. Ask yourself this everyday. REPLY o HecateApril 22, 2013 at 2:30 PM # Words to live by! Thanks Sue, I don’t think women can ever be reminded of this enough. I’ve encountered a lot of those judgments from other females. I have also done my best to discourage such behavior in women close to me. Yes, of course education is tremendously empowering for women, as you rightly point out. But something I’ve been thinking lately, is that it is our judgmental nature that really kills people. For example, a drug addict using dirty needles, or the prostitute who has less access to the proper health services. Needle exchange programs and clinics would indeed be widely available to these at-risk groups if only we’d all stop it with the hypocrisy already. Who are we to say we would not end up in similar situations, especially given that patriarchal structures are still firmly entrenched? I can certainly see myself being tempted by the promise of escapism from this male-induced dystopia through drugs. Women do need to have a lot more compassion for each other. And that is not some New Agey sentiment. When in action, it is incredibly powerful. Infinitely more so than the that of the spiteful little cabal of men currently in power, known as the ‘elite.’ Their horrific policies cannot affect us nearly as much if we stand together. REPLY o gregMay 14, 2013 at 2:55 PM # I thought this was an interesting read, all comments included. Here’s the issue I have though — With obvious criminal/violent exceptions, women are the one’s in control of which men breed with them. In today’s society, sadly, it’s perhaps women’s greatest social power. But if this is the case, why do you reward men who are as demeaning, grotesque, and idiotic as being described with reproduction? Women have the keys to the gene pool, so not having sex with these assholes would weed out the douche genes, while adding a behavioral influence over current/future generations of men. It seems to me that if women stop sleeping with the smug-ass in the popped collar who degrades them every chance they get, then the problem would resolve itself in a few short generations. second, isn’t there some nurturing component to this? I guess I’m wondering why Mother’s don’t instill better values and respect in their sons towards women? What outside influence is undoing that work, if any? Why aren’t mothers changing the system from the inside-out? REPLY * Nine DeuceMay 15, 2013 at 9:26 AM # Yeah, men’s behavior is women’s fault. REPLY * CPBMay 16, 2013 at 1:53 PM # Another one of these, ‘When will these dumb bitches get it through their heads? They should be fucking me not their husbands and boyfriends.’, tired rants. When are you going to address that glaring confirmation bias that prevents you from attending to the millions (probably billions) of women on this planet who never enter into abusive relationships or get out of dodge when things turn ugly? If only women would fuck judgmental sexist shit-heads like you this whole men-as-bane-of-womens-exstence thing would just disappear. Yeah…I think not. Oh, and women’s greatest social power is being able to choose their mates except in the frighteningly frequent instances when they can’t because of rape! Thanks for your probing world weary insight there, Sherlock. Is there a man on the planet who can leave a dissenting comment on this blog without proving himself to be a moronic sexist dipshit? Finally, what external influences could possibly be fostering this hatred towards women? Try the justice system, marketing, the workplace, government, academics, entertainment etc. I honestly have a hard time finding a facet of society that is NOT expressly devoted to dehumanizing women. I’d try willful ignorance, but women just can’t afford to be that stupid and still hope to survive. REPLY * !ur firedMay 17, 2013 at 7:01 PM # I did raise such a woman. All by myself. She was loved. Encouraged. She is strong n loving. She is intelligent with aspirations for success in all she does. I left out the sassy. So, I recently have teaching her sassy. REPLY * LBMay 23, 2013 at 7:39 AM # Your privilege is showing along with your ignorance. You should really do some research before addressing folks with a completely different paradigm and who are no longer (if they ever were) in denial of the system we live in. Misogyny and sexism are alive and well. And rape aside, most women are as ignorantly immersed in patriarchal values as most men. Therefore whether they actually have freewill to sleep with whomever they choose is quite debatable. REPLY * Hawkshaw21June 8, 2013 at 10:40 AM # Hey Greg, ever heard of rape? OR forced/arranged marriages? Thanks to evermore misogynistic laws, abortion caused by rape/incest is now being made illegal. If that wasn’t enough, many insurance companies are refusing to cover birth control. So much for having control over our bodies. BTW, “douches” aren’t born, they’re made. If men spent as much time criticizing other men (instead of women), misogyny would end. But of course, it’s always easier to blame the victim instead of looking within. REPLY 699. !ur firedMay 17, 2013 at 7:26 PM # I agree. They teach degrading women with their double standards. Feel inferior as men to women doing it. And women support them as fools. Where women are more in population. More educated now by mass population. Its old school thinking. Even by school boys. Uneducated. Where that same school boy probably begs his girlfriend. But tries to look macho with the boys. REPLY 700. !ur firedMay 18, 2013 at 3:56 AM # I want to rock their casbahs, ladies! We need to organize. They are violating our womens rights! If they want little meek women than they should morph themselves baack 2000 ad/bc.I want to fight these lunatics for ppl. Who the fuck do they think they are! I am the expert, they are NOT. Bow n beg ,pathetic ppl who attack women with your severe psychoses. Go trust your delusional pathetic psychotic sociopath and stay the fuck out of my entire life and go for that meek wonan you seek! REPLY 701. femmeforeverJune 10, 2013 at 3:35 AM # Hello Ladies, I am just up late stressing about my life that has been ruined and continues to be made ever worse by misogyny and I feel like I wandered into old home week. I haven’t laughed this hard in a reeeal long time. I thought this thread (blog?) was dead and am delighted to see it active again. It’s mighty fine to hear you sisters! Get the fuckers. Get them. REPLY o SugarpussJune 10, 2013 at 2:34 PM # I am just up late stressing about my life that has been ruined and continues to be made ever worse by misogyny[…] I can relate. I’m genuinely sick of everything and (almost) everyone. I saw a dead kitten in the street (probably hit by some asshole dude in a Hummer) this morning, and I thought “Why couldn’t that be me instead?”. Nothing makes sense. It’s always somebody (or some creature) that doesn’t want to die. I’m just so tired of all the bullshit. Tired of men, tired of women who claim to be working in the interest of other female-bodied people, but reveal themselves to be total fraudsters. Tired of alllll the bullshit. REPLY * femmeforeverJune 10, 2013 at 4:22 PM # Sugarpuss, I certainly know what you mean but YOU are a champion. We cannot lose the very very few who have achieved clarity. You cannot be replaced. There is none like you. Lean on us. We cannot wave a magic wand and make it all go away but we can assure you that you matter because you really do. More than one of my belly laughs upon reading these comments were thanks to your posts. I will be requiring a lot more of them. Why can’t we do a super secret society thing like Masons except for radfems. That way we could congregate, ladyship, recharge, have great fun and edification without the ill effects of them interfering with our meeting place. That would just be grand. But until then know that the women here and I’m sure all over the place would have much lesser lives without you. 22 million hugs, FF. REPLY * SugarpussJune 12, 2013 at 7:33 PM # Well, few things make me happier that knowing I made somebody laugh. I really love to hear that. When I was a kid, one of the (many) careers I dreamed of was being a comedian. But everything I wanted to do was male- dominated, so I get very angsty and discontent with life. It makes me sick when I see men doing things that I know I could do 100 times better. These pigs, oozing with unearned privilege, can’t handle the competition; that’s why they work so hard to keep women down. So yeah, don’t worry. I’m not going to off myself or anything (even though I do think about it often) LOL. I hate men too much to give them the satisfaction of being rid of me. Sometimes, that hate is the only thing that keeps me going. PS I’d hug back but I’m an introverted, non-hugging weirdo. :D REPLY * femmeforeverJune 13, 2013 at 2:26 PM # Well, few things make me happier that knowing I made somebody laugh. Yay! Because you did/do. It makes me sick when I see men doing things that I know I could do 100 times better. Make that 10,000 times better. Sigh. To see men getting horribly overpaid in positions of authority for doing NOTHING while women under them do ALL the work, exhibit ALL the talent, merit, and leadership for no money or recognition makes me sick to my stomach too. Not only do ALL the people working around these men know they are useless and REQUIRE support staff to do one tenth the job one woman could do with NO support staff but the other men fully protect these losers/leeches and promote them regardless because – male supremacy. Rage squared. PS I’d hug back but I’m an introverted, non-hugging weirdo. :D I used to be one of those too but my college best friend was/is a shameless extrovert with a double major in hugs. She cured me of the non- hugging gene. But I still proudly wave the introvert flag. REPLY * SassyJune 11, 2013 at 12:44 PM # Sugarpuss… I have thought EXACTLY that so many times. Why the shit do I have to be here? I’m so tired too. Lately, I’ve even grown tired of women as well. (Not you or Nine of course) So this that is inside of me, has gotten so much worse. The brainless, ignorant, vain, exploiters, aka average women, are so much a part of the problem in my eyes. I’m not taking much comfort in women anymore. I’ve noticed right before my eyes that most women, are at best, enablers. I get it that, (average woman), being born oblivient and unable to think with both sides of their brain, believing men are their protectors and are to be trusted, is a handicap and they can’t help it….but that doesn’t mean that I am automatically able to put up with them on a daily basis. I have to drive behind those incredibly stupid females first thing in the morning so I’m already pissed before I’ve gotten to work. These women that cannot save enough time to put their makeup on at home, or realize the laws of driving ALSO apply to THEM, or know who’s fucking turn it is to go through an intersection, much less make an intelligent split second decision. These women are FAR more interested in what they are wearing and what eye shadow, and their fucking Gene Simmons platform shoes, and which guy is hot at work…….fuck…… Even Pinterest, the site that attracts me because the wealth of history emphasized in the most incredible photos I’ve never seen, gets to me as soon as I see what the average female is going to Pinterest for…. can you guess??? FITNESS and FASHION! FUCK! Get a brain! That is ALL they care about. I’m so fucking sick of seeing tits and ass I’m going to clock the next bimbo that doesn’t care she’s a fucking exhibitionist. I must agree, to a certain extent, with one of the posters here, that these women do keep requiring the attention of, and breeding with these undeserving males and making more idiots for us all to deal with. In essence, the stupidity and tolerance I’m seeing from my fellow women, has me woman hating too!!! Now I really feel fucked up. Ever want to know where humankind is headed in a funny way? Watch Idiocracy. It’s perfect. REPLY * SugarpussJune 12, 2013 at 7:47 PM # The, admittedly, small part of me that is an optimist hopes that these women are just feigning conformity long enough to get into a significant position of power, and will then rain hell down upon men’s heads. LOL Probably not likely though. REPLY 702. EvaJune 11, 2013 at 4:30 PM # I’m so happy I found this post! Even though this was a few years ago, haha, it is still extremely relevant. Lately I have been starting to really hate men. This isn’t because of feminist women or my mother or aunt brainwashing me. It’s because of men, literally. It’s because of my experiences with men. Almost all of them were negative. Nearly all of the boyfriends I have had have changed for the worst during our relationship. I went into the relationship believing he is a sweet, caring, nurturing man who will do anything for me (I would do the same!). A few months pass, and… I’ve never hated a human being so much! They became arrogant, extremely selfish, uncaring, insensitive, and disrespectful. Why? NO IDEA. I hadn’t changed at all, I never have in a relationship. I only ask to receive as much as I give. I only “nag & bitch” (as they call it) when problems arise and I would like to discuss them before things get out of hand. My current boyfriend (whom I am almost at the point of breaking up with) is like what I described above, times 100x. It is an emotionally abusive relationship. In the beginning, he was incredible. He did everything he could to impress me and keep me around, and I did the same. I have not stopped, actually. He did, as soon as I moved in with him and his parents. Right before that, he desperately craved for me to move in because he misses me so much. He said things such as (literally), “You’re the most important thing in my life.” “You’re my first priority.” “I just want you.” “I’ll do my best to never hurt you.” oh, and the best one! “I love you.” Of course I STUPIDLY believed him. He has a dog, a German Shepherd, who is currently about 9-10 months old. I like him, but… he is so annoying, he slobbers EVERYWHERE and on EVERYTHING (I have to do a load of laundry of MY own clothes twice a week because he comes over and gets his slobber on my nice clean pants as soon as I put them on), he jumps on you with his dirty paws, he steals things, he barks, and CONSTANTLY needs attention. My boyfriend is absolutely obsessed with his dog. It’s gotten to the point where he literally said he would choose him over me and that he’s the only important thing in his life. And he blames me for the fact that his dog is going through a teenage phase – he thinks that it’s all my fault, because he refuses to believe that his dog isn’t perfect. THANKS for letting me know this ahead of time… OH, and he wants the dog to sleep on our bed in a few months. I wouldn’t even do that with my cats, and I LOVE cats. Having him on our bed will only cause problems, including our intimacy. He points out my flaws and can easily say negative things about me, yet he can’t do the same for his female best friend – who is awful – and I’m being nice in saying that. He pressures me into drinking more alcohol than I am comfortable. He says I am boring and a bummer because I have no interest in getting drunk (mind you, I’M ONLY 19 YEARS OLD, he is almost 21), and he allows his friends to speak disrespectfully to me, in fact he does it with them! When I left the room to get away from their obnoxious behavior, who came to see if I was alright? My boyfriend? NO. A young woman (my age!) whom I had never met. She understood how I felt and even apologized for their behavior! This girl puts up with her husbands sexist treatment. I could go on for hours, this is only the beginning of why he is making me start to dislike men, a lot. Everything is about him, I mean nothing to him. Men are just like this, almost all of them are. There’s no fixing it, because men are too stubborn to try to keep their women around – whom they spent months chasing after only to bed her. REPLY o SugarpussJune 12, 2013 at 9:00 PM # Living with men is pure torture and pure HELL. My first, and last, relationship (I never make the same mistake twice) was with a ‘Nam vet (well, sort of) pothead/alcoholic who was 20 years my senior. He was funny, his penis was rather small but it worked, and I was eager to get out of my mother’s house (abusive situation), so I thought “Hey, why not?”. BIGGEST MISTAKE EVER. I wasted 5 years of my life with that emotionally unbalanced asshat. When he wasn’t on a drunken crying jag and talking about his “damn brother-in-law” who allegedly owed him money, he was complaining about something I did that he didn’t like, accusing me of cheating or making some irrational demand. He also seemed to be under the impression that the housework was my duty, despite the fact that he was not employed (I don’t think so, pal!). And then there was the nightmarish condition he always left the toilet in, after a visit (don’t ask). During the last year of the relationship, we had moved to another apartment that was leased under my name (he had a felony so he could not be the primary tenant), and that enabled me to kick him out on his fucking ass when the BS became intolerable. I do get lonely sometimes, but I’ll take isolation over that mess ANY DAY. REPLY 703. SugarpussJune 12, 2013 at 9:35 PM # I’m so tired of hearing about father’s day. LMAO What a fucking bogus holiday. Hey, let’s reward dad for having an orgasm! Even the worst of mothers still had to suffer through the nine month incubation phase (and delivery). Fathers only empty their nutsack into a woman, fart, roll over, and then go to sleep. Now that’s a real sacrifice, eh? I wish they’d find a way to make humans function like seahorses; the males get pregnant! If that ever happened, abortion would be 100% legal, free, and accessible to men everywhere in, like, five minutes. Problems don’t become legitproblems until they Affect Men Too™. REPLY o EvaJune 13, 2013 at 11:20 AM # Hahaha, you’re totally right. Even if the mother is awful in every way, she still gave up space in her own body for her child, and THEN gave birth to them. Men are so weak, and pathetic. They say women are inferior physically. What a bunch of bull crap! I wish every man had to at least go through a few menstrual cycles! A REAL man looks after his offspring after birth, and continues this for the rest of his life. I remember watching a video about these two men getting a simulation of what birth would feel like – they both gave up! They quit when it was too painful! Women can’t do that, they HAVE to continue. Geez, men are horrible. REPLY o femmeforeverJune 13, 2013 at 2:34 PM # I’m so tired of hearing about father’s day. LMAO What a fucking bogus holiday. My father used to lament what a sad institution Father’s Day is compared to Mother’s Day. Well of course it’s that way because it should be. A father, even an OK one, cannot hold a candle to a mother, even a failed one, in any way. REPLY * SugarpussJune 13, 2013 at 10:17 PM # My pathetic father was a no-show throughout most of my life. My mother would have to call him and cuss him out to get him to visit me. I remember, the day before my 18th birthday, he showed up to “inform” me that he would no longer be required to pay the grand sum of $100 USD per month child support. LOL He always acted like it was a lot…and it was, for me and my mother, who were barely getting by. I remember how stressed she was about that, and how she was trying to budget everything so we’d be able to survive. She would often perform sexual favors for money and/or make a trip to the local food pantry. Every time I see one of those disgusting, selfish “father’s rights advocates” running their mouths about how they shouldn’t be required to pay child support, I want to fucking puke. Somewhere, in the bowels of my attic, there are squirrel droppings with more dignity & compassion than three-quarters of the male population. Free advice for any man that doesn’t want to care for a child: Get a vasectomy, you goddamned moron. REPLY 704. EvaJune 13, 2013 at 2:11 PM # Here’s a little bit I wrote while feeling frustrated with men a while back: “Why I hate men. Men are the reason why the world/society is so messed up. They are the default human being, and women are stuck with the label of some kind of new creature. Double standards are because of men. War is because of men. Insecure girls are because of men. I’m only 19 years old and I already feel this deep hatred for men. Thankfully, I have never been raped or sexually abused. But have I feared for my life because of a man? Plenty of times. I can’t walk down the street alone without fearing for my life, fearing a man will jump out of the shadows and rape/kill me. I hate that men think they own us, and that WE owe them something. Just because a female is out in public, showing more skin than her hands and feet because of the hot weather (like you know, how she’s allowed to?), it does not mean that any man is invited to grab and take whatever they want. She has now given up all rights to her own body, simply because she’s showing more skin because of the weather. And if this female happens to tell you to F*CK OFF, you should do so, not call her rude names. But of course, if something doesn’t openly belong to a man, well, that’s just sexist, right?! It’s funny how men spew insulting words such as ”slut” and ”whore” and ”c*nt”, because they think we’re so promiscuous. HA, men are the whores! They are obsessed with sex. Any person with a working brain can tell you that. They chase after us, are ”sweet” to us, just so they get the satisfaction of an orgasm from something other than their hand. Then you’re thrown off to the dump, and he moves on to the next f*ck hole. I occasionally go onto an app with funny pictures. It’s not a gender specific app, but it is 90% dominated with males. The age of these males? I’m guessing teens to early 20’s. I’ve gotten so accustomed to expecting what’s going to be in the comment section for almost every picture. If there is a picture of an attractive girl – which makes up about 1/3 of the pictures. Most of the comments will be along the lines of ”I’d bang her” ”Where are the boobies?” ”Like if you only clicked on the picture for boobs” ”Wait, there were words in this picture?” They completely disregard the intent of the picture simply because there is a girl present. If she is not attractive, well you can imagine the comments – they are the opposite. If a girl has her mouth slightly open, from being surprised or such – ”Do it photoshop!” ”Fap fap fap fap fap…” ”Looks like she’s thinking about my c*ck there.” If a guy is shown doing the EXACT same thing, nothing is said – except they actually notice the purpose of the funny of the picture. It angers me every day I go on there, it’s less and less funny everytime. Goes to show that women can’t be taken seriously with men. They are either not worth their time, because they’re ugly, or they are just a walking blow-up doll, because she happens to be pretty and have large breasts (which I’m glad I don’t have – they must be a pain in the *ss!) Men think we’re so emotional and out of control. HA. Men start wars because they obsess with power, they pick fights in the streets, they kill over money and drugs, they rape other countries’ women like they are property, the list goes on. Sure, women can definitely be emotional and sensitive – I say it’s a gift. BUT, we have a very good excuse. You see, little pea-brained men, unlike you, part of our body deteriorates and bleeds out of us, every month. We can also harbor a human life inside of us, without dying (most of the time). What can your body do? Leak sperm. What a wonderful talent you have there. This shows how weak men truly are. They may have muscle, but that’s about it. If men had to deal with a menstrual cycle, the entire world would know. There would be a National – Donate Your Sympathy To A Suffering Man Day… EVERY day. And it would be mandatory – whys that? Because men have all the power. Men are making decisions about women’s reproductive rights. I’d rather decide my own uterus’s fate, THANKS. And when women FINALLY stand up for themselves, what do they get? Hateful remarks, death/rape threats, name-calling, beatings, and disrespect. I will not allow a man to treat me badly. I am a human being, obviously with an intelligent mind, capable of doing everything that a man can do.” REPLY o SugarpussJune 13, 2013 at 11:14 PM # That was great, Eva! REPLY o femmeforeverJune 14, 2013 at 1:25 PM # I’m only 19 years old and I already feel this deep hatred for men. Eva, you are so far ahead of the game. I hope you know it. Just make sure you don’t let anyone convince you your radness is wrong in any way and you will be just great forever. REPLY 705. SugarpussJune 13, 2013 at 6:03 PM # FUUUUUUUCK! I’m about to blow up! Grenade mode! Quick, somebody put a pillow over me! LMFAO!!! ARRRG! Some socially awkward nerd boy whose only contact with the female sex has probably been in the form of sniffing used sanitary napkins in the women’s restroom at Luby’s, is posting stupid fucking shit on the Linda Goodman astrology forum. Here is a snippet: I just dont see how people can really rely on astrological aspects to tell them why certain things are happening in life. Like the thread about what aspects cause girls to not like to wear make up. I just think that astrology would have a small amount to do with why they dont choose to wear make up. But i might be wrong.. I just figured that lots of the ones who didnt were less feminine, because of their chemical disposition when they were born that perhaps gave them more masculine traits. He then goes on to say: […]And mars square venus is trouble with woman apparently. I thought me holding myself back with woman and not be as aggressive as i wanted to be, was all because of this aspect, and that this is why i have trouble with girls and so i imagined myself as some victim and dwelled on that aspect every time i was annoyed with a girl Yeah, you snotty-nosed little twerp, your “problem” with females might have something to do with the fact that you put so much stock in rigid gender roles (for women, certainly not for his own damned self, obviously). Because, not wearing makeup and exposing one’s self to toxic chemicals is totally “masculine”. If a female needs props to attract a man, than that man is living a lie about his sexuality. Come on out of the closet, you pasty, knotty-kneed, booger-eating clod of irrelevance. This is a perfect example of the Nice Guys™ who whine about how they can’t get a date with a supermodel. They fail at masculinity so they demand that women be extra-conforming, so that these losers will look more masculine (doesn’t work) by comparison. PS Egyptians invented makeup…and the men wore it too. REPLY o EvaJune 14, 2013 at 12:16 PM # Thank you! UGH that whole “Nice Guy Syndrome” is the most irritating excuse. If you really are/were a nice guy, you wouldn’t be yapping away your misogynistic bullshit. “I was a nice guy, an ugly one, but women rejected me, so I became an jackass. THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT VAGINIAS! GO MAKE ME A SANDWICH!” I recently watched an episode of “Wife Swap”, since it can be quite entertaining at times. One wife was a feminist nurse who works 100 hours a week, while her stay- at-home husband acts as a teacher for their two little daughters. She also participates in roller derby! They encourage their girls to be themselves, they let them wear absolutely whatever they like – their clothing ranges from “rainbow” to “boy”. Frankly, the daughters seem to be incredibly happy with their lives. The wife is not controlling, as some people would assume since she’s a feminist, she’s kind and just wants her kids to be free. Yes, she wishes she could spend more time with her family, but she is doing the job she loves, and providing for her family. The OTHER wife, meanwhile, is the opposite. I was appalled and extremely disappointed in hearing the words coming out of their mouths. She is your typical “MILF” wife, with a son (about 6) and a baby girl. They play by the strict traditional gender roles. Hubby goes to work and provides a life for his family, while wifey stays at home, cleans, cooks, and takes care of the kids all day. Their poor little baby has been put through a ton of beauty pageants – wife says “She loves it!” as the child bawls her eyes out… What really pissed me off was the fact that this family is all about appearance and winning. Almost direct quotes include: “My wife has to look hot. It’s not an option. That’s why I got with her in the first place. I’ve only ever seen her without makeup once, and if you saw her, you’d know why she needs makeup all the time” (YES, the wife always wears makeup! She sleeps in it! She gets dolled up EVERY day, even if she’s just staying at home!) “I believe second is for losers.” “We believe you can only succeed in life if you’re good-looking.” When feminist wife got to their residence – husband told her all of this- she was shocked! He then directed her to the bedroom where required clothing was laid out for her… including what he literally called them, “hooker boots”. I stopped watching after that. I couldn’t take it. REPLY * SugarpussJune 15, 2013 at 3:56 PM # Ah, Wife Swap. The name alone (pervy reference to swinging) makes my stomach turn over. I’ve seen the episode you are describing, but I’ve forgotten more than I care to remember. It’s really difficult to watch TV without being triggered by 99.9% of the misogynistic programming. Same with the internet; unless I am specifically visiting some type of female- friendly site (there aren’t many), I find myself in a constant state of anger and/or depression. The absolute worst part of it all is seeing some asshole denying that this oppression exists (or even worse, claiming that women are secretly in charge). Our suffering is invisible. REPLY * CPBJune 15, 2013 at 6:43 PM # Not to mention the title “Wife Swap” also evokes images in my mind of a time not so long ago when women were next to chattel and considered bartering material. REPLY * SugarpussJune 16, 2013 at 4:00 PM # CPB! Yes, I thought that, too. And men still do this; it’s just a little more covert. Thanks to FunFems, any criticism aimed at this behavior will be shot down on the grounds that you are interfering with “her choices”. I recall seeing a video on YouTube where men were asked if they would let their best friends have sex with their wives/girlfriends. Note the wording of that; I’m not seeing any care or concern for women’s choices in that question. What I find most disturbing is how so few people seem to have a problem with it. Female enslavement has been normalized to a point where even it’s most damaged victims will defend it to the death. Misogyny is the most pervasive social cancer. REPLY * CPBJune 17, 2013 at 10:46 AM # Amen. Also, good to see you round these parts again. :) REPLY 706. HecateJune 14, 2013 at 4:32 PM # No, it should always be Wonder Woman boots :) Here’s a great documentary to check out: http://video.pbs.org/video/2331042879 Very uplifting for a Friday afternoon. REPLY 707. SugarpussJune 15, 2013 at 4:19 PM # I’m really hating myself right now. There’s a certain D-grade celebrity that I’ve been attracted to for quite a long time. Well, I just noticed that he’s been on Twitter, making extremely tacky jokes about prostituted women. What a piece of shit! I can’t believe I wasted so many brainwaves on fantasies about huffing his dong (among other things). Granted, it is my core belief that all men are scum, so nothing really surprises me…but he is just far scummier than previously assumed. All I can think about is how I’d love to tie him up and beat his ass with a VERY LARGE belt until he begs for mercy. Shit, I need to stop this; I’m slipping into Sneakybunny territory. Anyhow, the general idea here is that they are all the same. REPLY 708. SugarpussJune 16, 2013 at 7:17 PM # I had completely forgot that it’s Fucker’s Day, so when I remembered, it somewhat explained all of the shitty & careless male behavior I have experienced today. First up, 7-Eleven. Two gawky, lanky, pizza-faced teenage terrors were blocking my path as I entered the building. As I tried to squeeze my way around them, I said “Excuse me”. One of them took issue with that and mockingly, in a very high-pitched tone, said “Excuse me!”, and the other goon laughed in response. I had already gotten about a foot past them when this occurred, and I replied, “Yes, excuse me, ASSHOLE!”. There was no response to that. Next up, asshole on a motorcycle (actually, it looked more like a stylized moped). This just happened about 30 minutes ago. As I was walking down the street, some ignorant, fat dickhead came from around the corner on his “chopper”, and although he clearly saw me, he seemed to be headed straight for me! As he got dangerously close, he wobbled the bike in the other direction and said “oh, woops”, AS IF it was an accident. He saw me as soon as he turned the fucking corner, so there is no “woops” here. Was either drunk, lazy, or he did it on purpose. Right after that, just one block further down, I was standing at the intersection of the two streets, waiting for traffic to pass so I could cross over. Some overgrown, gas-guzzling, air-polluting pickup from hell pulled up beside me, also waiting for traffic to clear. So, when the coast was clear, I just stood there, waiting for the fucker to pull out from beside me and go on his merry fucking way. The idiot just sat there for several seconds before he realized that I was waiting for him to go on. Of course, he didn’t need to cross straight ahead; his intent was to turn to the right (the side of the street I was standing at), and as he did, he narrowly missed squashing me against the curb. On a unrelated, but still sort of related note, do any of you remember that thing last year where several celebrity females were encouraging people to stop celebrating Mother’s Day? Combine that with this new trend to put “fathers” on a pedestal, and I’d say MRAs are hard at work for full erasure of women. REPLY 709. HecateJune 16, 2013 at 9:40 PM # Such a dilemma, that one. That men continue to say/ do such awful things and that we still find ourselves physically attracted to them. I find myself attracted to the brooding type, which may not be good news. I try to tell myself that type of guy is hot, because his being moody/ sulky exposes a vulnerability in him. But then, it could also simply mean he’s just a jerk. Some pics of brooding types, if anyone else finds that sort of thing attractive: http://blogofbrooding.tumblr.com/ REPLY o SugarpussJune 17, 2013 at 5:28 PM # Hmmm… I personally don’t care about their “personalities” (if you can call it that). It is my opinion that men really don’t possess any such thing. As far as I can tell, they all operate like Windows 95; one minute things are pleasant, the next minute it’s BSOD time. LOL So yeah, for me, it’s purely physical. I gave up on the “personality” aspect a loooooong time ago. Besides, I suck at relationships (I prefer to be alone most of the time, except when I’m horny), so it’s a non- issue, really. As far as desirable “But I’ve often found these types of men, when they see a woman behaving like a human with flaws, will flip completely to the other direction..” I have high standards for all people. I expect every person to be a good person and live up to their abilities. A person who does something wrong should be criticized, although respectfully of course. I don’t believe in excuses. If sex addiction in men is inexcusable, so is food addiction in anybody else. Our country needs to hit the gym and stop making excuses. That’s being productive. REPLY * SugarpussFebruary 26, 2014 at 7:19 PM # What the fuck do you know about being productive, Justin? Since when is arguing with the people you oppress considered a major accomplishment? And, FYI, Mr. Olympia Wanna-Be, this blog aint a gym, so I suggest you get cracking and take your own goddamn advice. But, hey, why practice what you preach when its so much easier to bully women on the internet? HA! PS Fuck your standards.You’re not the boss of ANYBODY… especially not the women who post here. Fucking pathetic little bunghole. * SugarpussFebruary 26, 2014 at 7:24 PM # 92, not trying to be bossy or anything but, isnt it past time to give this prick the boot? * SugarpussFebruary 26, 2014 at 7:45 PM # And I’d like to add that, one of the most powerful and often-used weapons men aim at women is the “You don’t want to be just as bad as men, do you?” meme (AKA “Two wrongs don’t make a right”, made famous by the racist pedophile Ghandi). This type of bullshit brainwashing has derailed more justifiably angered women than I would ever care to count (but not this one, fortunately). For many women, it is a powerful shaming tactic that squashes on contact. On me, it’s about as effective as a limp dick. Which would explain why douchebag Justin prefers to ignore me and hone in on more vulnerable targets. Action taken in response to a wrongdoing is NEVER a wrong; it’s Justice. Is Justin afraid of justice? teehee. He better be. o SugarpussDecember 23, 2013 at 3:24 PM # As a white male, I feel hurt and angered by most of the comments made on this page. FUCK OFF REPLY o MissfitDecember 29, 2013 at 11:35 PM # Why would you hate black people? Have black people oppressed white men throughout history? Have black people invented systems of beliefs, institutions and practices forced on white men to oppress them? Have black people committed disproportionate amount of violence towards white men? Do they fantasize about, produce and consume images of white men being brutalised and humiliated? The question is: what are your legitimate reasons to hate black people as a class? Because women have plenty of legitimate reasons to hate men from a historical, religious, economic and cultural perspectives. People can say that ‘feminists are men hating’ witchcraft practising lesbians’ (cool!) or that ‘women have valid reasons to hate men’. The second perspective is demonstrably right. REPLY * Robin HahnDecember 31, 2013 at 12:34 AM # Regarding hate and anger – women amaze me. This statement is infinitely poignant: “Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.” –Andrea Dworkin So Michael, take your whingeing to someone who hasn’t already forgiven you and let you off for being a prat: a fellow male who *ALSO* doesn’t get it. If men took a tenth of what women have to deal with daily, there would be uprisings, there would be bloodshed, but your privileged little mind doesn’t see that WE are all responsible, every one of us males. Don’t come here to whinge and feel offended – and look ever so privileged in the process – realise what this site is about is true and make a change in your part of the world. REPLY 738. AlexandraFebruary 10, 2014 at 2:47 PM # I agree I admit I am a man hater and a feminist…and lesbian REPLY 739. VictoriaFebruary 24, 2014 at 8:53 AM # Oh yes yes! I LOVE what you have written here! So funny and so true! Men are shit. By far the most destructive most vile and pointless oxygen thieving species on this planet. Who is responsible for the vast amount of wars? Who is responsible for the vast amount of the destruction of our environment? Who is responsible for the vast majority of violent crime, sexual crime, rape, misogyny, sexual abuse and lets not forget wonderful religions such as Islam that include things like sharia law and female genital mutilation. I love that macho bullshit they do when they’re feeling insecure to. Hilarious! I fucking hate them. So much. Yuck. REPLY 740. JustinFebruary 27, 2014 at 1:22 AM # Love conquers hate. REPLY o SugarpussFebruary 28, 2014 at 1:16 AM # Women are the only group of oppressed people who are expected to love their oppressors. Kiss the hand that holds me down? Nah. PS FUCK YOU. REPLY * SugarpussFebruary 28, 2014 at 1:43 AM # Somebody please feed this fucking concern troll to the alligators! REPLY * HecateFebruary 28, 2014 at 10:39 AM # I’ll do it – I live in Florida :D REPLY * SugarpussFebruary 28, 2014 at 3:16 PM # teehee I almost forgot something….I’m the alligator! And Florida is where I’ve been wanting to move to for a VERY long time. It’s interesting how it continues to be mentioned, coincidentally, in various conversations I just happen to be engaging in. It’s a sign! : D REPLY * SugarpussFebruary 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM # Bonus commentary: I wonder if love conquered Hitler? Is that what took out the Nazi regime? Love? LMFAO REPLY * HecateMarch 3, 2014 at 12:26 PM # Oh interesting! Well I mostly came here from California to save money. I’m more inland, so lots of old folk and horses :D But it’s a good place to catch your breath post-recession. Or at least I’m hoping the worst of it is over… REPLY 741. gracemargaretMarch 1, 2014 at 9:36 AM # “And, for the record, the biggest asshole males I’ve ever met were the effeminate heterosexual type. The soft, doughy, white geeks of the world are single-handedly responsible for our planet’s impending demise, but have managed to perform quite the extraordinary feat; convincing everyone (especially women) that they are harmless, innocent, bullied minorities who are deserving of sympathy, respect and, most of all, copious amounts of pity-fucks. BULLSHIT. All of it.” ^ YES! A thousand times YES. I was a nerd as a kid, I was kind, harmless, sensitive, socially awkward and got bullied a lot. I assumed guy nerds were like me. I always thought they were the poor kind-hearted sensitive guys who were interesting and nice underneath all that social awkwardness, and the jocks were the assholes to avoid. But observing all the nerd cliques now as an adult, I’m appalled by the unbelievable amount of misogyny and contempt they show for any female who dares enter their territory. Most MRAs and PUAs seem to be this type of guy. “If sex addiction in men is inexcusable, so is food addiction in anybody else.” – Justin What the hell? How did we go from the global human rights of women to “get to the gym!” And no, sex addiction isn’t like food addiction. You need another person to have sex with usually, and if you lie to and manipulate other people to get your “addiction” satisfied you are an asshole. Eating an extra slice of pizza hurts no one. Also, Sugarpuss, I fucking hate Ghandi too. REPLY o SugarpussMarch 3, 2014 at 3:03 PM # *headbangs* I had a lot more to say but I’m tired as hell. :) REPLY o SugarpussMarch 7, 2014 at 9:37 PM # OK, I’m ready to provide a more adequate response now. :D Men who identify as “geeks” or “nerds” are the biggest pieces of shit I’ve ever spoken with/observed. I could write a book, 10 inches thick, on this topic alone. Somehow, nerdy has became the new “masculine”, yet it still reeks of misogyny like old-school “masculine”, but far worse! A jock’s power is limited to his immediate environment. He might call you a “bitch” and throw a beer can at your head, but if you can get out of his range, you’re good. Nerdy dudes? Oooooh FUCK! Where do I start? First off, they hate women because they secretly want to be one, which would explain why many of them are creepy cross-dressers (among other things) on the down-low. They tend to put women on a very high pedestal, and any female-bodied person who doesn’t tow the uber-feminine line (to make them feel less insecure about their own severe lack of masculinity) is targeted for attack. Justin is a perfect example of this type of wretched lifeform. Note that he harbors hatred against women who are simply being human, which he has conveniently categorized as “acting like men”. The problem with that very wet little brainfart is that many generic human behaviors have been appropriated by the male sex, and recoded as “masculine”, so as to inhibitnatural female behavior as much as possible. Femininity is used, by effeminate males, to enslave women. In all honesty, my experiences with traditional “manly men” have been much more positive than with the geek/nerd/spaz/flabby gamer variety. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but there is no point in discussing them, precisely because they are rare exceptions, and do not represent the majority who do exhibit this rotten behavior. Justin’s bizarre food/sex analogy is laughable, but not really surprising. You see, I think he’s trying to say we’re all a bunch of “fat bitches” who need to get to the gym, and that is a very typical statement from his ilk. I knew he was a piece of shit the moment he first posted here. I’m glad he showed his true filthy colors for everyone to see. Men are usually the opposite of what they present themselves to be. REPLY * blackmetalvalkyrieApril 3, 2014 at 10:55 PM # Sugarpuss you frequently make brilliant comments here. Please start a blog! REPLY * SugarpussApril 4, 2014 at 7:08 PM # Thank you. :) I used to have a wordpress blog, but it didn’t really take off, mostly because. believe it or not, I suck at blogging. However, my tumblr drew a shitstorm reaction when I stated the very true fact that male rape victims are never called “sluts” or asked what they were wearing, etc, etc. (iow, It’s never implied that they did something to deserve it). I also stated that the idea of women regularly raping men is entirely ludicrous and, at best, a product of LibFem & MRA fantasies. I finally grew tired of debating with the sheeple and closed my account. Anyhow, I prefer just commenting on the blogs of others. That way, I don’t have to deal with men & handmaiden trolls. I have ZERO patience for that shit. REPLY * blackmetalvalkyrieApril 9, 2014 at 10:02 AM # Don’t sell yourself short, I would read your blog! You can set tumblr so that no one can reblog your stuff. In my feminist understanding I would say no man can be raped, bc to feminists rape means the violent enforcement of men’s patriarchy defined gender roles for women as fuckholes and breeders. They will never know the threat of forced childbirth, it is not comparable. They can be sexually assaulted but its obviously men doing it and the women that do penetrate men with objects, he probably deserved it bc women usually only act out when their lives are in danger. REPLY 742. SugarpussMarch 22, 2014 at 2:44 AM # So, what happens when Madonna dares to post a selfie on Twitter, revealing pit hair (whether it’s real or fake is still being debated)? The Daily Mail makes a big deal about it, and then all of the handmaidens & woman-hating dudes pile into the comment section to spit their hateful, misogynistic & ageist venom. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2585894/Madonna-bares- cleavage-sexy-bra-Instagram-ruins-effect-revealing-hairy-armpit.html Ironically, most were offended by the fact that (*gasp!*) Madonna has theaudacity to age, like a normal human being. You see, when a woman is no longer physically capable of being impregnated by some rapist, she is supposed to hide away from public view, and be grateful for the fact that she is merely allowed to exist. The comments are absolutely revolting and seething with murderous contempt. Any fucking moron who claims that Feminism is no longer needed should go take a good, long look at those comments. The ‘women as disposable objects’ mentality is more pervasive now than ever. Unfortunately, few seem to give a shit. REPLY 743. pikakeleiApril 21, 2014 at 10:00 PM # I looked this up because I was feeling in a very man-hating mood right now. My father and other men cause the majority of the suffering in my life. They are selfish, arrogant assholes who think they are superior to women, and yet could not even function without the women around them. My brothers and two other guy friends are the only guys I know who I actually trust, and even one of my brothers I would never recommend to a woman I cared about–he is a sweet, gentle brother, but also a womanizer who does not have deep feelings for women he is in relationships with–it is all just about having a perfect body. I have come to terms with the fact that the kind of man I would feel comfortable and safe with in a companionship does not exist. I know that I am not perfect, but I do not ask for perfection. I would just want someone who is sincere and faithful, who cares and loves deeply, and is loyal. How many times have the guys I dated lied to me, flirted with other women right in front of my face, oggled other women while I’m walking with them–So I dumped their sorry asses. And these are the best guys I could find around. The others were worse. I hate men. I hate their stupid superiority complexes. I hate their criticisms and expectations of perfection. I hate their lack of human caring and empathy. I hate their inability to love women deeply and loyal. Every single asshole one of them is full of dirty thoughts and is incapable of being loyal in thought, word, and action. Ironic thing about those guys who think they want polygyny/polygamy – if it were really practiced in society, only the best-looking, highest quality, kindest, strongest men would have opportunities to mate–and would have multiple mates. The vast majority of loser guys would never have a chance to mate with anyone their whole lives, because all the women would go to the best men (50-50 men and women, some men with more women = some men with no women). They are so stupid and arrogant to think they could make it in a polygynous society. The vast majority would not stand a chance. REPLY o SugarpussApril 24, 2014 at 8:05 PM # LOL! Excellent post, pikakelei. Everything you said is so very true. I stopped having any type of sexual contact with men over a decade ago, after my first (and last) relationship ended. I’m lucky in the sense that it only took 5 years of misery, spent with one man, to set me straight. Most women waste many decades of their life, in pursuit of “the one” male who will fill some imaginary void that exists only because society has hammered the idea into our brains that we, as female-bodied people, are worthless when we aren’t busy “nurturing” everyone but ourselves. I like how males who choose eternal bachelorhood get some cutesy title like “Men Going Their Own Way”; whereas solo females (especially those who are post-menopausal) find themselves the subject of much ridicule and parody (eg. the classic “old lady with cats” meme), much of which comes from, ironically, the PUA community. That’s right, a group of men who are so repugnant they cannot procure sexual relations without elaborate coercion tactics (aka RAPE)actually feel justified in poking fun at somebody other than themselves & their own pathetic lives. Fun fact: I was watching Hoarders, a few months ago, and one of the individuals who was receiving an intervention was an old man with a filthy, run-down house full of…..CATS! But that’s okay because penis. OK, so I’m rambling a bit… but my point is that, yes, men are scum and worth hating because….*drumroll*… they hate & oppress women. I isolate quite a bit, so most of my interactions with the male species are strictly online. I was an only child, so there are no male siblings to deal with. Occasionally, a random cock will attempt to flirt with me, and I simply ignore them. It’s interesting how men think we need them, and yet they are the ones who exert the greatest amount of effort to interject themselves into our lives. I’m too tired to discuss the polygamy thing. I might comment on that later. :) REPLY * WhateverApril 26, 2014 at 8:02 AM # Sugarpuss, would you date me? im a man and id do anything you want I swear REPLY * SugarpussApril 26, 2014 at 9:59 PM # There’s always a wise guy lurking about. REPLY * FabFroApril 27, 2014 at 8:34 PM # I lurk here a LOT. And one of the reasons is because I love reading your comments. Sugarpuss, seriously, you should really consider starting a blog back up again! (I totally understand your reasons for leaving Tumblr. Just, yea, no…) But your honesty is like a breath of fresh air in a sea of lies, which I find myself drowning in daily. You’ve taught me so much. You’ve taught me that if I don’t like something, I don’t have to pretend to like it to get along. And I can’t thank you enough for that. Even if you did a post with 500 words or less, it would still be an awesome post. Your so called “ramblings” are, in my opinion, perfect thought provokers and conversation starters; two things our movement can never have enough of. You could so count me as being one of your faithful followers! REPLY * SugarpussApril 28, 2014 at 8:36 PM # Thank you. I try to speak from the heart and tell it like it is. If I can inspire just one woman/girl to stand up and say NO to conformity & male rulership, I’ll feel like I’ve accomplished something worthwhile. I may start another blog after all. :) I see you have one. Looks promising. I’m excited to see an African-American voice in the RadFem blogging world. REPLY * FabFroApril 29, 2014 at 12:09 PM # You’re very much welcome! Okay, I’ve been thinking about something and just wanna toss it out there. Even if you say no, well, hey, at least I asked. I was wondering if you would like to post over at my blog and just share a blog that way. I only plan on posting like every 2 weeks. This could relieve pressure of not getting a post out fast enough because when you don’t post, I’d be posting and vise versa. My rule regarding you posting would be: Post as you please, when you please, how you please. Seriously, like 90% of what you post is pretty much what I would post. You just do it better, lol. I wouldn’t mind moderating the comments. I love doing that. And the only ones I would let through are the ones I would hijack just to dismantle. This way if you decide you wanna stop blogging you can walk away and drop out with no real strings attached. Nor would you have to worry about trying to put a blog together. I would be most honored to kick the patriarch’s butt by your side. But, yea, just thought to toss that offer out there. ^_^ REPLY * SugarpussApril 29, 2014 at 12:37 PM # Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m not a trusting person. Understand that this is the internet, and anybody can claim to be whomever or whatever they choose. I’m wise to men’s tricks, and it’ll be a sub-zero day in Miami before I fall for any of them. If you’re legit, then I look forward to reading your future posts. :) Again, no offense, but I have to follow my instincts, and I’m getting some weird vibes from you. If I’m wrong, I’ll eat my sneakers. But, for now, I prefer to fly solo. REPLY 744. mulvarrpApril 29, 2014 at 5:31 PM # The story with the asshole at the airport is is not exaggerated at all REPLY 745. homewardbound87May 2, 2014 at 7:26 PM # I couldn’t agree more with most of you ladies. The average American male is a repulsive husk of what a decent, considerate, enlightened, tasteful human being should be. They’ve allowed the soulless status quo controllers in the mass media to shape their definition of “approved maleness”, which has, by no accident, been pushed with the objective of creating ticking time bombs overly focused on competition and self. So while they are fully responsible for digesting the conditioning, I think it’s fair to still consider them sad victims/serfs of a ruthless ruling class hellbent on stifling real unity and human progress. Because such a great number are continuing to drink the mainstream kool-aid, I do not waste time getting newly acquainted with the bastards. Whether hetero or homosexual, their miserable lack of psychological/emotional intelligence never fails in diminishing my last ounce of patience. The world would be a much more harmonious place if more men were force fed estrogen daily. – a 20-something gay male REPLY 746. SugarpussMay 4, 2014 at 1:46 AM # Things Nice Guys™ say: It’s so goddamn irritating to see women sticking with piece of shit guys who treat them like absolute dirt. The worst part is half the time the women will actively bitch about these guys to their other friends. To their other MALE friends, some of whom may or may not have feelings for them and are more than ready to treat them the way they should be treated. I’m not single. I’ve got a girlfriend. But seeing this still pisses me off. If you’re gonna stick with a guy who cheats and uses you, then you either shut your fucking mouth and don’t ever complain about it or you grow a fucking pair and leave his ass. There are a million other guys out there who are ready to treat you with the respect you deserve. And if you’re still too scared to leave your asshole boyfriend, or you’ve deluded yourself into thinking that you love him and can change him or that his faults don’t exist, then fuck you for being the problem and you deserve every bit of hell that he puts you through. http://www.gotarant.com/fucking_women_1730 Oh yeah, that dude sounds reeeeeal nice. Nothing says “nice” more than stating that a woman deserves whatever she gets for being too afraid to leave an abusive boyfriend/husband. I guess this piece of shit never saw The Burning Bed. Men who identify as “nice guys” are the worst of the worst. Like all men, the only thing they care about is numero uno and laying pipe. But, unlike other men, the “nice guy” puts on a fake front, and pretends to be “different”. It’s all a ploy for nookie. When they don’t get what they believe to be entitled to (eg. they had to suffer through countless hours of pretending to be something they aren’t, and it didn’t earn them a roll in the sack), they blow up and reveal their true nasty, evil MALE character. Dirty fucking trash. REPLY 747. SugarpussJune 2, 2014 at 1:47 AM # I’m so fucking done. I really am. There is no foreseeable escape from this misogynistic hellhole men have created for us. No matter how bad it gets for women, the sheeple will continue to chant “what about the men?”. Girls & women being kidnapped, raped, murdered…. all over the fucking world….. but these goddamn MRAs & their unbelievably stupid handmaidens cry “misandry” in the comment section of every fucking news story I read about female-bodied people being victimized. Un-fucking-believable. It’s like some type of sick joke. And then there are the asshats who say American women are free (HAHAHA!!! WHAAAAAT?!!!) and not at all oppressed so we just need to shut up…… so that AMERICAN WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MALES can get back to whining about how they can’t get laid or child support (when they do get laid). Talk about first world problems! These shitheads have been catered to for so long that they feel they are being denied their “rights” when *any* public discussion of misogyny takes place. They don’t want to hear it. They don’t want to see it. They want all women to suffer in silence. MRAs have admitted, on numerous occasions, that they believe women are inferiors, and that our “proper place” is in subservience to them. These bigots can lie & deny all they want; the proof is everywhere. Problem is, everyone turns a blind eye to it. Woman-hating has become so normalized that few people even see it as a bad thing. And if you even try to discuss this with the general public, there is the sound of crickets…. and then they try very hard to shut you down as quickly as possible. Women are the only group of people (as far as I can see) that actually believe they deserve to be treated like this. Obviously, not all of us… but I’d say the majority have bought into men’s lies about our alleged “inferiority”. They think this shit is natural and normal! Guess they never bothered to pay attention to the other lifeforms on this planet. The female human is an embarrassment to our mammalian and insect sisters. You wont see any male bees or elephants oppressing the females. That shit doesn’t happen. And you will certainly never see any “beauty rituals” being performed by the females. In fact, it is the MALES who use their appearance (and strength) to attract the females. With that in mind, I think it’s safe to say human males are a genetic FAILURE. They know they cannot measure up, so what do they do? They turn it around on us, and force us to look at ourselves, and to peacock for them. And they call this “feminine”, when it’s actually MASCULINE. Men have turned everything on it’s head. They have put a great effort into destroying Nature, creating a faux male god, and brainwashing women with a pack of lies. Until women, all women, are prepared to stand up to these slimeballs, nothing is going to change. And when I say “stand up”, I’m not talking about some fucking Twitter hashtag, mmmkay? The problem with most of this so-called “activism” is the lack of ACTION. Tweeting & blogging is largely worthless because it is based on the premise that one is creating “awareness” of the situation. Hey, let me tell you something; everybody already knows! BUT… they don’t give a fuck…. and worst of all, it’s highly unlikely anybody will ever be able to make them give a fuck. That’s how messed up this shit is. That’s the situation we face. Too many women have bought into men’s lies, too many women are too damned optimistic and naive, too many women have been weakened by the practice of femininity, too many women have male relatives whom they cater to and love unconditionally (no matter how rotten they are), too many women are satisfied with the pathetic allotment of Dude Cookies™ they receive for turning on their sisters, too many women worship money instead of freedom, too many women are divided by social & racial classes, too many women are dieting & picking flowers instead of lifting weights, too many women worry about what some ugly male thinks about their appearance,… and uh…. Too many women are nothing like me. REPLY o SugarpussJune 2, 2014 at 2:58 AM # Oh, and too many women are willing to shower some fucking “male feminist” poseur with praise & donations when he rags on MRA asshats like Paul Elam, because he has no actual job. Every, single day… Paul Elam bends over, spreads the cheeks of his pasty, unconditioned buttocks, and shows everyone exactly what he is; a smelly asshole. David Futrelle prefers a more subtle approach. He’s That Liberal Dude™ who plays the “ally” role to get what he wants (in this case, money. but i suspect that he’s hard-up for nookie, too), while unsuspecting suckers (that’s *you* libfems & self-professed “radfems”) line up to line his pockets. Not only do they pay his rent (truth be told, mom is his landlord), but they do what every ignorant, mainstream sheeple does best; they tell him how FABULOUS he is, and how NOBODY has EVAR blogged about MRAs before his holinessarrived (yeah, nobody except *hundreds* female- bodied feminists). I would not be surprised to learn that he & Elam are working together to harvest personal information from the sadsacks who are gullible enough to click that donation button. REPLY * SugarpussJune 2, 2014 at 11:42 AM # One more thing… 92, I just want to thank you for allowing me to post here. I’ve been shunned and banned from several RadFem blogs. Nice “sisterhood” those hypocrites have going. When I have felt like I’m losing my mind and had nowhere else to purge these emotions, I have always been able to come here and say what is on my mind. REPLY * golden boy syndromeDecember 5, 2014 at 3:29 PM # Just want to say I feel the same way, sugarpuss, and I’ve been banned a few times myself from other so-called feminist sites for not towing a line. For the record, you are my favorite commenter here and I think you are awesome. There is no sisterhood online anymore it seems just clickbait and flamebait like XO Jane and Jezebel. This blog is a breath of fresh air in the glutted cesspool of pseudo-feminist sites online. It’s funny to me how modern feminists spend so much time blogging about “rape victims” but when an actual rape victim (me) doesn’t agree with their crap suddenly they act all bitchy and mean and ban me. What they mean is that they enjoy the clickcash and attention that blogging about rape gets them, but they don’t actually want to hear from raped people who don’t exist to tell them how great they are for “caring” about rape victims. By “caring about rape victims” I mean writing clickbait headlines with the words “college girls” and “rape” in them while pretending they aren’t pandering to porn-y keywords and trying to get clicks from MRA types to keep the web traffic flowing. I also think it’s total shit that sex positive feminism is more interested in defending people’s right to have “rape fantasies” than they are in standing up for raped people. No one is breaking into these sex- positive feminists bedrooms and saying “Thou shalt not have rape fantasies!” but I have seen my fair share of self-identified “sex- pozzers” say that they care more about people not being “kink shamed” than they do about spreading the message that NO ONE actually wants to be raped. If they like rough sex then fine, but it’s fucking irresponsible (not to mention really shitty to raped people) to spread the idea that women want to be raped and it’s just some prudish thing to think that’s bad. I really wonder if these people have ever met anyone with SAPTSD or if they really just don’t give a shit. If they had they would know that what they consider “fun” is a life-destroying hell that can never be escaped. Anyhow, these are the reasons that I don’t feel that modern feminism is supportive of me or other rape survivors. We are just clickbait to them or props for their “kink”. I’m always grateful for NDs blog, and the fact that she actually shows some compassion and sensitivity to how awful rape really is and that’s a rare thing online these days. My 2c. REPLY * SugarpussDecember 8, 2014 at 6:59 AM # Yeah, and “rape fantasy” is an oxymoron, but don’t try to tell that to the sex-pozzies. It goes right over their empty little heads. I’m sorry you were victimized in that way by some scumbag. I’ve been lucky enough to have never found myself in such a situation (aside from a couple of drunken gropers). But I’ve known several girls/women who were, and witnessed the devastating effects it had on their lives. There’s a lot of selfishness in the mainstream “feminist” camp; a complete lack of empathy for victims whom they feel are “spoiling their fun”. Many of them have even embraced bullshit MRA terminology like “misandry” (brought to you by the creators of Reverse Racism™), and throw it in the face of any victimized woman who is, rightly, distrustful/resentful of men. Followed by NAMALT. They don’t give a fuck until it happens to them. And even then, some of them are actually crazy enough to make excuses for their attackers and/or “forgive” them because “anger is just sooooo negative”. And rape isn’t, apparently. Naturally, this way of thinking is completely foreign to me. REPLY o lilb21July 11, 2014 at 3:43 PM # A MEN SISTER! REPLY 748. lilb21July 11, 2014 at 3:41 PM # Omg!! IV found heaven sign me up! I fkn hate men too pieces of shit they are! Us women need to make a stand against them maybe we need to go around in bunches and rape and sodemise them??? Lol wouldn’t that be funny! Where’s the popcorn?? Lol I Hate Men and not just because I’m a victim of their pathetic betrayals and existence but because men are meant to protect women!… after all ….they do realize they came from our C#$@! REPLY 749. PaulJuly 22, 2014 at 4:57 PM # I am a man. I agree with everything all you women have written and I think I am in love with the writer of the original blog above, seriously. Men are complete and utter morons, oblivious to anything but their own self centered wants, not needs, WANTS/DEMANDS. I don’t even hang out with my male friends anymore because I could not bare another boring second of it all. The entire communication spectrum is of either sports, video games or some disgusting story about how they paid the local masseuse lady to jerk them off. I am turning 34 on September 21st mind you. I tell you this because what self respecting 34 year old person still gives a shit about video games? All the same, what self respecting 34 year old adult has to pay for a sexual act? Did I mention they have girlfriends? That is the part that DISGUSTS me! They see NOTHING wrong with it! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Many times I have argued with them and confronted them about this, asking them how in the world they could go get jacked off by some stranger who most likely did the same thing to 10 men that day bare-skinned, and then return home and get in bed with your wife or girlfriend as if you did not just betray the very essence of what it means to be exclusively in a relationship with someone? What of Love then? What of Respect? What if you found out your girlfriend gets fingered by her Yoga instructor? Of course I get no real response worth anything that would give me ANY decent insight into the rationale behind such heinous acts. I want you ladies to know that there are decent men out there who live by a strict moral code and conduct themselves with honor and a pride that is completely void of ANY trace of egotism. One such man is Myself. I can go on for days and write pages regarding examples of the debauchery that is today’s man, but I don’t have the time right now. It would be a lot of fun though to get together with you ladies and compare notes, LOL. Before I go however, I want to bring this one example up to you to get your opinion. It is of a sexual nature, and I do apologize if I am too forthcoming. And I hate to what seems like immediately bring this conversation to sex, but I assure you I do NOT automatically think sexual things whenever I think of women, it is just that this example is so outrageous and degrading I would love to share it with you and hear your opinions on this matter; A good majority of my male friends, or ex friends rather, used to tell me that they refuse to go down on a woman because they feel it would be a sign of weakness on their part. They say, and I quote, “I’m not getting on my knees or bowing down to a woman I don’t care if it is to *** their ***** or not, I’m not kneeling to any woman. Let them **** my **** on their knees. I’m a man!” I literally look at these “men” with such disgust it becomes immediately obvious to them how much I detest them. Look here ladies, the bottom line is this; the so-called “men” you write about and come across on a daily basis are not not just real men, but they are not real human beings either. Understand what I mean? Of course I do agree with all of you that there are FAR more blatant examples of the degradation and absent- mindedness among the male gender versus females, but all said and done it is a moral, or lack thereof issue. What worries me more than anything however, is how the poisonous way of life of men have begun to seep into the behavior of our growing populace of girls to women. What I mean is, take rap or even worse, reality based shows such as THE BAD GIRLS CLUB for example; these ‘women’ refer to each other has ‘bitches and sluts’ literally every other words out of their mouths. Also, with the advent of the internet, pornography among women has grown to a staggering number!! I mean, not that I look at porn often, but the few times I do I find it hard to concentrate on the reason I’m looking at it because I can’t get out of my head how with every click of my mouse that brings me to a new page there is literally thousands upon thousands upon thousands of pictures and videos of different women. Look, we are all aware that the male species by nature is programmed to pursue the opposite sex and to procreate with as many different women as possible just as we know that women are programmed to seek out ONLY a select few if not ONE of the many pursuant males to receive and mate with, becomes pregnant and raise a child. But today it seems as if women have buckled under the pressure and constant barrage of men’s blatant sexual advances and the male dominated medias relentless NON-subliminal messages to skip the entire courting experience and get right down to the act of instant gratification, thus completely eliminating the need for chivalry and the once accepted dream of monogamy; to find that ONE TRUE LOVE and settle down together forever! Women are even becoming more violent among each other, skipping reasoning and throwing punches before anyone even knows what happened. I fear not only for the upbringing of our young girls and boys, especially with parents not being parents and also having to contend with celebrities like Miley Cyrus and Lil Wayne teaching our children and shaping their moral code, but I fear for humanity as a whole. I really enjoyed reading what all you ladies had to say, and I hope you found interesting what I had to say as well. If you like, feel free to look me up and drop me a message. Facebook me if you like at Paul M. Recchia from Westchester, NY or email me [email protected] REPLY o MissfitJuly 24, 2014 at 1:47 PM # ‘we are all aware that the male species by nature is programmed to pursue the opposite sex and to procreate with as many different women as possible just as we know that women are programmed to seek out ONLY a select few if not ONE of the many pursuant males to receive and mate with, becomes pregnant and raise a child’. No, women are not programmed to find the ONE male to procreate with. They could very well copulate with an infinite number of males until they become pregnant and without knowing from whom. And care for the child without a man at their side. Women don’t naturally NEED to stay with one male, they could as well raise their children by themselves among other women and mothers in matricentric societies like the elephants. The fact that women are made to stay with a man, on whom she is made dependant, is a result of patriarchy because men have deprived women of their means of subsistence and enslaved them. It is rather men who need to stick with one woman; it’s the only way they can be sure that a child is theirs. I don’t know if humans are naturally prone to monogamy or not. Usually, in species that are monogamous, the males take part in the caring of the offspring. In a society where males seek ‘to procreate with as many different women as possible’, fatherhood is untenable (continuously chasing for a new woman to copulate with, a man wouldn’t know if he impregnated a woman with his seeds and couldn’t care for all the children that he might possibly have engendered). This idea that men are made to copulate with many women while women are monogamous is just an excuse men make to justify them cheating while demanding their wife/girlfriend don’t do the same to them. Except for that part, I liked the rest of your post. REPLY * SugarpussJuly 29, 2014 at 9:35 PM # No, women are not programmed to find the ONE male to procreate with. They could very well copulate with an infinite number of males until they become pregnant and without knowing from whom. And care for the child without a man at their side. Women don’t naturally NEED to stay with one male, they could as well raise their children by themselves among other women and mothers in matricentric societies like the elephants. The fact that women are made to stay with a man, on whom she is made dependant, is a result of patriarchy because men have deprived women of their means of subsistence and enslaved them. This. REPLY 750. PaulJuly 22, 2014 at 5:14 PM # Hi, it’s me, Paul again. I forgot to add something. For many years I have had a thought about how fucked up this world is and it is all because of men and testosterone. Seriously think about it; what starts wars? Men’s egos and testosterone does! What causes men to rape women? testosterone does! Get my point ladies? I always imagined, what if we snipped the balls off men soon after puberty. I say soon after so that way we can preserve their sperm for artificial insemination later on in life when marriage has been committed and a baby is of the desire of the couple. If women ruled the world, I seriously doubt it would be as fucked up as it has been. By the way, I am an aspiring writer currently working on several books. One of them is a horror/thriller/sci-fi anthology, and I thought you might find it amusing that one of the stories I have written is about a world where Men have ravaged and destroyed the Earth due to wars so women have relocated to the Moon where they now rule society and to prevent violence and rape and the subsequent re-emergence of wars, women a council and team of scientists and geneticists made up solely of women genetically modify all newborns that are to be male, eliminating testosterone altogether, which they have deemed the main cause of all pain and suffering, violence and anguish upon Earth since the dawn of humans. I only have the rough draft written, but will be done some time before the end of the year with the entire anthology. Talk to you ladies soon! P.S. What is MRA? I apologize for asking but I came upon this site by complete accident. I was looking up lyrics to a song and somehow I ended up here. I clicked the link because I found the title very witty and had to have a peek inside. I am glad I did. ‘Rage Against the MANchine’! :) I love it! ;) REPLY o IsmeJuly 29, 2014 at 8:36 AM # An MRA is a “Men’s Rights Activist”, part of the “Men’s Rights Movement. It’s a reactionary backlash against feminism and the increase of women’s rights, pretending to care about rights for men. The sort of people that will passionately care about the number of men being raped in prison, but only during discussions about women being raped that they hope to derail and dismiss. Unfortunately, they’ve somehow managed to present themselves as a legitimate counterpart to feminism, as “wanting to defend men’s rights” rather than “wanting to attack women’s rights”. But, as to your main point, testosterone doesn’t cause men to rape, because nothing causes it. A man might be influenced by any number of things (the way society deals with sex and consent comes to mind), but ultimately he has to make that choice to act. Something outside his control making him do that is little more than the myth that it’s somehow not his fault, even if that isn’t what you meant. REPLY 751. gracemargaretAugust 11, 2014 at 9:45 PM # Paul asks, “Seriously think about it; what starts wars? Men’s egos and testosterone does! What causes men to rape women? testosterone does! Get my point ladies?” Yessiree Bob. I mean Paul. Point gotten. Dodging responsibility for one’s violent behavior by blaming it on testosterone, it’s a Patriarchal Classic. Well done, gentleman. I think someone already wrote “Amazon Women of The Moon.” Sorry. They even made it into a film. REPLY 752. silveremi2004August 19, 2014 at 11:53 AM # Totally hear you and agree with male assholey behavior. Most men are arrogant entitled asses, but on the other hand human behavior doesn’t exist in a vacuum. This “look at how big my cock is” rubbish isn’t just encouraged by men. And until women stop rewarding this type of behavior and stop breeding with this douche male ilk the problem will never go away. There’s no point in complaining about male shittiness if we’re constantly tolerating, enabling and excusing it. And while I agree that at times there’s no catharsis quite like blogging about vexatious boy privilege the truth is these assholes are, for the most part, being raised by women. Wtf are women teaching their sons about self identify that men seem to forever exist in a mental age of 12? We can sit here and whine about men ruling the world in a dysfunctional and craptacious way but until we take charge and reward decency, thoughtfulness, kindness and generosity and decisively reject males that are violent, cruel, entitled, unjust and careless nothing is going to change. We are half of the human population and we have a lot more power then we give ourselves credit for. REPLY o CPBAugust 20, 2014 at 7:05 PM # Epitome of “asshole”: blaming women for male behavior. REPLY o gracemargaretAugust 24, 2014 at 1:43 PM # Funny how fathers magically don’t exist when talking about raising boys. Boys learn masculinity from their peers, fathers, uncles, brothers, male role-models, media, porn. They do not learn masculinity from their mothers or women. Some moms may buy into the patriarchal crap about gender stereotypes and roles, but that doesn’t compare to the way boys have any decency and humanity beaten out of them by the time they’re adults, by men. Men actively tell boys that thoughtfulness, sensitivity and kindness are weak, pathetic “girly” qualities to avoid at all costs. Those qualities are not rewarded by men, they are punished severely. Why do you let men off the hook for that? Boys who show sensitivity and compassion, or who just treat girls like equals, get ridiculed and bullied by their male peers. If you’re close to your mom you’re a pathetic mamma’s boy. Listening to women and treating them with respect means you are “pussy-whipped.” So it’s not a case of women not “rewarding” those qualities enough. Give me a break. REPLY o lizorSeptember 1, 2014 at 5:41 AM # “This “look at how big my cock is” rubbish isn’t just encouraged by men.” Jesus. H. – What planet do you live on? All of that shit is encouraged by men – especially anxiety about their dicks. Pull your head out, dude. REPLY 753. internetdoodAugust 25, 2014 at 10:57 PM # I just read through pretty much all of the comments here. What a great read. Especially your comments, Sugarpuss. You’re great. Never change! Anyway, if I may offer another male opinion (because that’s totally what this website needs more of :P), the strong language and emotions expressed here are entirely called for, Don’t be guillted into toning it down by the men coming here saying, “But I’m a nice guy, why do you hate me?” A problem needs to be recognized before it can be solved, and for men, this means understanding and acknowledging their own privilege. That won’t happen if the only thing women say to them is, “No, you’re fine, it’s those other men who are the problem.” REPLY o robynsveilAugust 29, 2014 at 3:31 PM # [A problem needs to be recognized before it can be solved, and for men, this means understanding and acknowledging their own privilege. That won’t happen if the only thing women say to them is, “No, you’re fine, it’s those other men who are the problem.”] Understanding, acknowledging and removing, mate… don’t forget that last bit. And that won’t happen if we wait for women to not say: “No, you’re fine, it’s those other men who are the problem.” We have to say: “I’m the problem, and I’m going to fix it. And I’ll show you guys how we can fix it together.” This isn’t something for women to fix… that’s up to us. REPLY * internetdoodAugust 30, 2014 at 9:13 PM # I don’t disagree. I was just talking more specifically about communication between radical feminists and “neutral” men who don’t understand the problems with passively coasting on their privilege. If they’re here and they’re asking, they might as well get an honest answer. REPLY * robynsveilSeptember 1, 2014 at 8:23 PM # Personally, I think it would impress the heck out of those so-called “radical feminists” if we just cleaned up our act on our own and leaving women out of the equation altogether. Like I said: it’s not up to women at all. It’s up to us: solely and completely. Our behaviour and attitudes and actions are our responsibility and no one else’s. Oh, and they’re not asking. Oh, and no such thing as a “neutral man”. Born and raised male removes all neutrality. Even when we *don’t* want to exercise privilege, we do anyway when we say things like: [A problem needs to be recognized before it can be solved, and for men, this means understanding and acknowledging their own privilege. That won’t happen if the only thing women say to them is, “No, you’re fine, it’s those other men who are the problem.”] …that second bit, the ‘this won’t happen’ bit. See what I mean? There’s heaps to do all on our own, none of which has anything to do with what women should or shouldn’t say. REPLY 754. AndreaNovember 25, 2014 at 1:04 PM # All men will cheat. Its just a matter of what woman will bring it out of him and when. No man truly loves and respects a woman. And they fill your head with all kinds of bs blaming you for why they do it. I read all these articles that are for ladies of the man explaining why he cheated and they 90% of the time are warping women’s minds into believing we complain too much, we spend too much, we nag too much, we dont give them enough sex or fulfill their desires. And then the same articles go on to tell us we need to go way beyond staying commited and honest and turn into these submissive, d*@k sucking f*@king machines or its all our fault and we are wrong. All the meanwhile. ..justifying their inability to be truly loyal and commited because they are all ultimately selfish pigs. Again…..ALL men will cheat because of the narsissistic personality disorders and society is trying to get women to compete against each other for these lying, two-faced, deceptive pricks. Im just about done with them at 36 years old. Women need to stop being so blind and falling for their crap. Forget councelling if you are in it with a man who does nothing but truly blame you for their actions. Men only go to councelling to shut you up (the ones with a partial conscious anyways)Wake up girl. Its not you. REPLY o SugarpussDecember 2, 2014 at 9:25 PM # And they fill your head with all kinds of bs blaming you for why they do it. I read all these articles that are for ladies of the man explaining why he cheated and they 90% of the time are warping women’s minds into believing we complain too much, we spend too much, we nag too much, we dont give them enough sex or fulfill their desires. Yeah and, ironically, MRAs have a nasty habit of accusing women of being unable to accept responsibility for our actions. I’m pretty sure “I cheated and it’s YOUR fault because you wouldn’t suck my dick while you were bed-ridden with the flu, you bitch!” is the type of statement that comes from a hateful, selfish, irresponsible spunk-dispenser with an entitlement attitude. They have grown so accustomed to being served (especially in the sexual department) that they feel they are being slighted when some exceptionally brave woman doesn’t automatically bend over backwards in an attempt to cater to their every whim. And let’s talk about sex…. a fucking kosher dill pickle is better in bed than 99.9% of men. LMFAO! It lasts longer! These pathetic dudes can’t even hold their jizz for more than 2 minutes… and then they think, in their deluded minds, that we’re supposed to be excited about that shit?! I’m pretty sure I can speak for all women when I state that I don’t “enjoy” being sexually frustrated, over and over, by these losers who call themselves “men”. Low energy, high body fat, lazy, good-for-nothing, gaming when not sleeping, sleeping when not gaming, steaming piles of SHIT. LOL Have a great day everyone! :D REPLY 755. SeviellehcimNovember 28, 2014 at 10:24 PM # Oh dear god, I think I love you. Truly. REPLY 756. withheldthankyouverymuchDecember 1, 2014 at 8:24 PM # If there is any justice in this universe, there is reincarnation, and in your next life you will be born a man. REPLY o SugarpussDecember 3, 2014 at 12:33 AM # Hey dicknose, if there was any justice in this world, women wouldn’t be in slavery to men… so FUCK YOU. Go watch your porn, rapist. REPLY 757. SugarpussDecember 18, 2014 at 8:44 PM # I’m getting pretty fucking sick & tired of having e-conversations with willfully ignorant males who make certain recommendations (on the topic of career, for instance) that are simply NOT AN OPTION for women. You should do X You should try X You’d be a really great X Have you ever considered being an X ? Of course, X is always something that is entirely off-limits to female- bodied people and/or open to only a select few who are willing to suck the right dicks. And while this idiocy is manifesting itself, I’m just sitting there thinking “Does this clueless asshat even live on the same fucking planet as me? Has he been in a coma since birth? What the actual fuck has this spunkhead been smoking?” Perhaps I should have advised him to become a Wet Nurse. It’s just as unrealistic and flat-out fucking stupid. But, with men like this, I really do think they knowwhat the situation is, and they say this shit to feel progressive and to pretend they aren’t passively engaging in the oppression of women. Everyone buys into the LIE that western women are free. Sure, we’ve got it better than our third-world sisters, but many of the “privileges” are simply on paper only. Unspoken rules prevail. Always. You can change the law but you can’t change people’s minds. Bigotry doesn’t work that way. REPLY o HecateDecember 20, 2014 at 6:43 PM # Unsolicited advice is annoying coming from anyone. And it doesn’t help that as women, we really don’t have the luxury men do of privacy and anonymity. Men can rape and kill with impunity, but we have to answer to an entire community if we so much as change our lipstick color. As much as I enjoy being female, the constraints and the grief of being one in this society make me want to reincarnate as a man in the next life. REPLY * SugarpussDecember 21, 2014 at 8:37 PM # As much as I enjoy being female, the constraints and the grief of being one in this society make me want to reincarnate as a man in the next life. If reincarnation is legit, the purpose is to evolve to a higher level of consciousness. Coming back as a male would be a step backwards, reversing the process. :) REPLY * SugarpussDecember 22, 2014 at 1:30 AM # 92, you forgot to approve this comment. ^ :) REPLY * sellmaethDecember 22, 2014 at 1:10 PM # Some people don’t want to have a higher level of consciousness, they just want to live in peace. And that would be much easier as a man. REPLY * SugarpussDecember 22, 2014 at 10:14 PM # Most likely, we’ve already been there & done that. It would explain the current incarnation, yes? Punishment for vile male actions in a previous life, but a learning experience as well. I don’t want to be a man. I’m not a sell-out. Fuck peace, it’s overrated. It’s the world that needs to change, not us. REPLY o JustinDecember 21, 2014 at 2:27 PM # “You can change the law but you can’t change people’s minds.” — I agree completely. Laws only do so much. In order to change male behavior and attitudes men must see WHY it is important to do so. I can’t put much faith in prescribed ideas that come from the legislature. Male culture must change from within. I do not claim to have all the answers and am baffled at where to even start the progress; but radical feminist men have a responsibility to do what they can to change other mens’ views and destroy the entitlement philosophy that is so pervasive. This means the media and culture must not send the message to young men that they are entitled to women’s bodies or that they are somehow better than women. (All the research shows that women are superior to men and this is often met with a coy smile and people don’t absorb the great importance of this). The male entitlement philosophy is (I believe) the root of the problem. Only after ending this philosophy can we start to move toward a world where patriarchy will truly end. The 21st century can truly be the century of destroying patriarchy if the entitlement philosophy is stopped. REPLY * SugarpussDecember 21, 2014 at 8:16 PM # lolwut? Aren’t you the guy that basically compared overeating to rape? Aren’t you the one who stated something to the effect of “if men have to control themselves sexually, women have to control their food intake?”. […]radical feminist men[…] There’s no such thing. I’m sure you’ve been told this before, and yet you continue, belligerently, to refer to yourself as such. When men enter into any female-bodied space, they have a tendency to grandstand and take over. The fact that you keep calling yourself a radical feminist, despite objections from actual woman, is a good example of this. Besides, if you were as concerned as you pretend to be, if you were truly serious about this situation, I would have seen a story about you on MSNBC, regarding your organized protest of misogyny. I would have heard snippets of your angry, passionate, heartfelt speech. You would have publicly called out other men on their biased behavior, not hovering within the confines of a RadFem blog, trying damn hard to be the rooster of the hen house. A silent ally (and I almost burst into laughter when referring to you as such) is just as bad as no ally at all. Men like you may think of yourselves as the “good guys”, but until I see actual radical, visible activism coming from your camp… you all smell the same to me. REPLY * JustinJanuary 5, 2015 at 1:29 AM # Well as far as how men should participate in radical feminism, I don’t want to see men shut out completely as that would not be benficial yet I don’t want to see men “take over” feminism. As I’ve stated before, I don’t think men are as good as woman at running things so men should not try to be in charge of feminism. Personally, I think the more people (male or female) who join the movement the better. I would not discourage male participation. REPLY * SugarpussJanuary 9, 2015 at 1:57 PM # It’s not about what you want. The fact that you believe that your wants trump mine, or any other woman’s, is very telling. You have no say in the matter, actually. But nice try. REPLY * gracemargaretDecember 26, 2014 at 2:53 PM # “It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, … Martin Luther King, Jr. quotes from … make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that’s pretty important.” – Martin Luther King, Jr. REPLY * SugarpussDecember 28, 2014 at 12:37 AM # Yeah, gonna have to disagree with that. I’m pretty sure the law serves, primarily, the men who created it. Lynchings still happen every day, only the noose is now a gun or a chokehold… and it’s perpetrated by the very people who enforce the law. MLK was a bit overly optimistic, and a sell-out. Great speaker, but too eager to win approval from the oppressors. A “peaceful protest” is about as useful as a jelly doughnut in a bar fight. REPLY * gracemargaretJanuary 2, 2015 at 8:38 PM # I don’t know what happened to the quote, it’s supposed to say “It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that’s pretty important.” It CAN, unless you have dirty cops and judges. It’s the same things with laws against sexual assault..we have them, just getting cops and judges and juries to enforce them is another story. REPLY 758. SugarpussDecember 23, 2014 at 2:17 AM # White men are such great people. I have no idea why they are so “unfairly” persecuted and attacked by evil women & racial minorities. It couldn’t have anything to do with their belief that said groups of people are inferiors. And it couldn’t be because of their glaring hypocrisy and usage of ad-hominem attacks (remember, according to white men’s own rules, this is a logical fallacy and evidence of a poor argument). And it couldn’t be because they assume that a woman is living an unfulfilled life if she isn’t providing services to a man. And it certainly couldn’t be because white men’s numerous crimes are swept under the table and excused as “just some crazy guy acting out”, while minority crimes are emphasized and used as an excuse to label an entire race as “criminals” (and to literally execute them in the street with impunity. I like how this pig proves the point of the very article he is criticizing. Rot in hell, you fucking piece of shit (and trust me, you will). REPLY 759. SugarpussJanuary 9, 2015 at 2:40 PM # Some metrosexual dude just told me that, because I drop so many F-Bombs, I must have a high level of testosterone….. This is a very good example of how men are allowed to bend the rules of masculinity, but women are forever condemned to restrictive “ladylike” BS & extreme femininity. And, obviously, these losers are unaware of the difference between socially engineered behavior and actual biology. I’m pretty sure an increased level of testosterone would bestow me with an overabundance of body hair and a really big clit, neither of which I possess. I could have easily turned that argument around and asked him if he was an overly estrogenic male. He can wear skinny jeans, but I can’t say “fuck”? I swear, effeminate dudes are the biggest FUCKing misogynists ever. REPLY 760. SugarpussJanuary 12, 2015 at 7:39 PM # Quite possibly one of the most perfect examples of “nice guy” rage on the internet. Note that, no matter how foul he speaks about women (and to the women who respond to the thread), he is not reprimanded by a mod, nor is the thread deleted. In fact, he is coddled, and several people (including several handmaidens) actually agree with some of his bigoted statements. And then, consider how much anger this very post of 92’s has generated. It’s perfectly clear that men are allowed to “decompress”, “get it all out”, “express their frustration” (more like spew hate speech), etc, etc… but if a woman makes the slightest off-color comment about men? Well, then there is hell to pay. That isn’t tolerated for even a minute. Get ready for the “feminazi” label. I fucking hate men. REPLY 761. Kate Corbett PollackFebruary 11, 2015 at 9:45 AM # thanks so much for writing this. My life has improved exponentially since I’ve been able to severely limit the amount of men in it. I don’t date them, either because I’m lucky enough to not be attracted to them. That doesn’t mean not eye raped and harassed on a daily basis to the point where leaving the house feels perilous. I hate men, I’ve hated men for years and I don’t give a fuck. Thanks for writing honestly. REPLY 762. Kate Corbett PollackFebruary 11, 2015 at 9:55 AM # Thank you for writing honestly about this subject. My life has improved exponentially since I have all but cut straight men and even queer men, completely out of it. I also don’t date men. They’re largely incapable of pleasing me sexually because they’re too selfish. Thankfully, I’m very attracted to women so I’m obviously going that route for many reasons. However I still look feminine enough for straight men to treat me as Adam’s rib, put on this earth to give all men a boner and wash their socks. I can barely leave the house without getting eye fucked, cat called, followed, etc. men have tried to kidnap me right off the street in well lit, centrally located city areas more times than I can count. I’m also a rape survivor. Yeah…..I’m pretty done. Because the thing is, “notallmen”? It’s enough men to make being around them hell for me and many women., not to mention dangerous. They operate from misogynist, sexist, religious and patriarchal assumptions and beliefs about how the world works. Good luck getting them to view things from any other lens for any length of time. REPLY 763. Rachelle KebailiMarch 8, 2015 at 2:31 PM # Preach sister!!! These clowns are everywhere. They don’t know how idiotic and moronic they sound because if they did, threy’d never speak. Patriarchal bastards! And they wonder why women become misandrists. REPLY 764. SugarpussMarch 14, 2015 at 2:24 AM # HAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!!! So, ‘ol Paulie finally reveals himself to be an utter flim-flam. I am certainly not surprised by this. In fact, anybody who didn’t know he is just into this “men’s rights” BS for the cheddar should probably consider a lobotomy. LMFAO I love it! Can you imagine how many woman-hating dolts have handed their paychecks over to Darth Elam? And these are the guys whining about “money-hungry bitches” who supposedly take men to the cleaners in divorce court. Meanwhile, their leader is living the high life on their donations. I’d say that makes Paul Elam the Internet Welfare King. LOL Stupidity (and hypocrisy) never dies. REPLY o No More Paper TowelsMarch 15, 2015 at 1:55 AM # Mary Contrary here. As per my usual, this calls for an MRA Marmoset, although I’m starting to think we should call it “Male supremacist Marmoset” as MRAs aren’t the only male supremacists out there:

MRAs are THE WORST hypocrites, are they not? Everything they’ve ever complained about women applies 100% to them, every damn time. Good link. It shows that the MRAs are not a movement trying to accomplish anything meaningful, they’re just a hate group engaging in hate speech and harassment against women. REPLY o No More Paper TowelsMarch 15, 2015 at 1:59 AM # Mary Contrary here. I say this calls for an MRA Marmoset, although I think we should call it Male Supremacist Marmoset as MRAs aren’t the only male supremacists out there.

MRAs are THE WORST hypocrites out there, are they not? Everything they complain about women always applies 100% to them, every damn time. Good link. It goes to show that MRAs aren’t activists, they’re just a hate group engaging in hate speech and harassment against women. (This may be a double post, my browser hiccuped.) REPLY * SugarpussMarch 23, 2015 at 11:54 PM # Something tells me that Elam doesn’t even believe half the shit he says; a willful, premeditated attempt at profit by controversy is a more likely scenario. He doesn’t give a damn about the fact that he is dumping toxic misogyny sludge into an already polluted ocean of bigotry & irrational hatred. Much like nearly every man on the planet, all he genuinely gives a fuck about is $$$. Men are always plotting for ways to get ahead in the world, and how (not if) they are going to obliterate the competition. The oppression of women is really the only thing they can agree on. Without that, male solidarity is something of an oxymoron. When it comes down to things like money & status, they will stab each other in the back faster than I can even blink. Men try very hard to project this quality onto women, but with all due dis-respect, we aren’t the ones waging large- scale wars on each other. Internalized misogyny (aka “acting catty”) pales in comparison to the genocidal pissing contests between men. They kill each other every day (in addition to the lengthy list of women & children they victimize) and booty-rape each other in prison…and yet, MRA’s insist that Feminists are the problem. Needless to say, you have to be 5 freaks short of a circus sideshow to quench your thirst with that snake oil. REPLY * No More Paper TowelsMarch 25, 2015 at 10:35 AM # Great post! I agree, projecting is a major problem with these clods. Male supremacists ALWAYS insist that a world run by women would be as bad or worse than it is now, but then how would they know? We’ve never been given the chance, FFS. Something tells me if women did run the world, nobody would be forced to live under contrived and arbitrary social constructs. I also get tired of hearing about feminism, or about how feminism has failed. Really? Okay, then having the right to vote, not be raped, own property, hold a job, lobby for quality childcare, advocate for responsible gun ownership, run for political office, have equal access to higher education, access to abortion and other necessary reproductive care – to name a few – and what exactly have the MRAs accomplished that compares to this or contributes to the GREATER GOOD of society, hmm? Paul Elam himself said that his website isn’t about actually doing anything about the list of grievances dreamed up by male supremacist bigots; so all they are is a hate group on a harassment campaign. Then they wonder why people are disgusted with them. lol Take this abuser, for example. He goes around verbally harassing and abusing his fellow classmates, says that the topic of rape on campus is nothing but hysteria, has threatened to “rain hell” upon his school and STILL tries to pass himself off as a “Free speech advocate.” Oh really? What exactly is his speech accomplishing? He’s creating nothing but a hostile environment with his bigoted tirades, and trying to intimidate anyone who disagrees with him by hiding behind “Free speech” as if nobody else has a right to voice an opinion about his flagrant disregard for the rights of others. Oh, the mental gymnastics that only male privilege can buy. Add insult to injury that he hasn’t been expelled yet. No, they’re letting him take up space in his dorm room until the controversy blows over, but even before then he refused to go to classes or engage in academia in any meaningful way. Yet! Because he is male, his opinion counts for something despite his persistence to continue being a total asshole. If he were serious about being in school, you know, like everyone else there, he’d be more interested in passing classes than sitting around developing a reputation for himself. Could he be trying to follow in the footsteps of professional parasite Paul Elam? Probably. Most of what he says is a repeat of almost every antifeminist rant I’ve ever had the misfortune of becoming bored with. REPLY 765. SugarpussMarch 25, 2015 at 2:25 AM #

I wonder if this MRA scumbag even realizes what he revealed (highlighted by your’s truly) in this comment? He was trolling a random fun-fem blog, with cries of “misandry”… and then he dropped the above turd, equating women with slaves attempting to overthrow their masters. But… but… but…. I thought, according to MRA logic, men are the slaves to women, who are secretly pulling all the strings behind the scenes?!?!?! If women are indeed the slaves of the world (and we are), then all bullshit claims of men being the “real victims” is exactly that….BULLSHIT. Misandry is a myth. Checkmate. REPLY o No More Paper TowelsMarch 26, 2015 at 7:28 AM # Ah, he got us there, didn’t he? We feminists have done nothing but sit around and brainstorm about all the ways we can dominate men, because MEN are that important you see, they are just so desirable and lovely that they consume all our thoughts and dammit we would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for those meddling kids. I think I threw up a little in my mouth. Seriously, aside from their bizarre and contradictory talking points memo, male supremacists suffer from delusions of grandeur. They are so convinced of their importance and value, they not only believe that any woman would waste time conspiring against them; they also make whatever statements they want, no proof or reality necessary. Let’s throw in a smattering of magical thinking (“I say it, therefore it’s true!”) and we’ve got a real case of mass hysteria. Fact: 80% of legislative power is white, male, and Christian. Fact: It is male lawmakers who are colluding to erode reproductive rights to keep women disadvantaged economically, socially, and politically. Fact: Women grow 80% of the world’s food, and yet are the poorest peopleon Earth. Wait, facts? MRAs don’t need no stinking facts! Here’s one more inconvenient FACT: If MRAs lived and were treated like women, we would never heard the end of their complaints. We would have riots in the streets and the media would give a damn about the casual cruelty dished out to them. Yet they slam women for making so much of a peep about being treated like cattle. They are abusers and hypocrites to the highest degree. REPLY * SugarpussApril 14, 2015 at 10:19 PM # I would just like to validate “Mike” by admitting that I do want to overthrow male power, and dispense justice as I see fit. I am no limp- wristed pacifist. I’m a warrior woman, and proud of it. The malestream brainwashing didn’t work. Men think they can program everything and everyone, but they can’t program me. That’s right folks, Sugarpuss admits it. ;) REPLY * No More Paper TowelsApril 19, 2015 at 4:33 AM # The funny thing is, if feminists don’t fight back somehow, or meet the aggression of misogynist bigots head on; idiots like “Mike” will then say that “women allowed themselves to be treated that way.” I mean really. They just LIVE for creating no-win situations, don’t they? Anything to deflect from the fact that it’s the abuser’s job to stop abusing, not the victim’s job to stop the abuser. It’s another way these psychopaths use psychological vampirism to keep women from living fully human lives. REPLY 766. derpApril 12, 2015 at 7:16 AM # lol awesome. whenever i walk past i bunch of dudes out in public it is shocking how many times the snippet of conversation i catch is about fighting. physically hurting people is just awesome apparently. i fucking hate these people. REPLY o JustinMay 26, 2015 at 2:07 PM # It always seemed natural to me to look up to women as they are more civilized than men. I can remember starting school as a young boy and seeing how boys were acting aggressive, keeping their desk messy, burping, and horseplaying a lot, and overall acting very primitive compared to the girls. Despite being a male myself, the boys just seemed vastly below the girls. I just could not see how society could teach that men should look down on girls when girls clearly are better. I can remember specifically rejecting in my mind the absurd teachings of society that girls are below men -or that male traits should be revered. It all seemed ridiculous to look up to males. I felt nothing but shame and disgust toward male behavior. Perhaps we can change things by shaming this male behavior instead of glorifying it in the media/society. Nobody had to tell me that women are superior to men, it is blatantly obvious because of the way males act. I likely became a feminist because I could see how stupid boys act and can’t help but see women as superior to males. If boys grow up respecting women and looking up to them as the more advanced side of the species, maybe things will finally change. REPLY 767. SugarpussApril 14, 2015 at 10:21 PM #

His future looks grim. REPLY o No More Paper TowelsApril 19, 2015 at 3:54 AM # Aw, look at him – his life so simple and privileged he can afford to be outraged about feminists taking away eye candy from his video games. Only a total sexist bigot *needs* to reduce women to pr0n to enjoy a video game, no? However would he have survived if he’d grown up playing pac man and adventure? It must be great for him to have the time and energy to sit around grousing about video games while women cook for him, pay his bills, do his laundry, make his bed, and wake him up for his temp job he will undoubtedly quit after two weeks. I simply can’t imagine the level of glorious self-indulgence he must be accustomed to. I’ve only recently reclaimed my time and energy, and even I can never dream of having the constant support and help that men as a class get every day from women. Must be great to be them! REPLY o Buddy Guy Bro DudeMay 2, 2015 at 7:08 AM # Women can be just as hurtful. I was recently treated extremely unfairly by a large group of women. The other day I went to try out this Yoga thing cause some of my bros said there would be hot chicks there. He was totally right. I made sure to hit the gym before hand so I looked extra pumped for all the smoke shows in the class. First things first. I was looking damn good. I spiked my hair all awesome and was busting my favorite visor. (Cocked sideways of course!). The thing about this Yoga thing was none of these tasty morsels were even paying attention to me. I had to pull out my secret weapon……I took my shirt off. Suddenly this fine little thing next to me started looking at me weird. I figured maybe this was how Yoga chicks flirted so I started to chat with her. She ignored me so I pulled out my second secret weapon and smoothly asked her “Do you come here often”? Still nothing. I mean why would she come to this place wearing such tight pants if she didn’t want me to talk to her? Then it dawned on me. They were all Lesbos. Super hateful lesbos. So naturally I ripped a super loud fart and peaced out. REPLY 768. amJune 17, 2015 at 9:06 PM # I hate straight men. It’s got nothing to do with feminism – it’s based on years of much more personal experiences. In fact, the more I learn about how they really see women, from their own actions and words, the more of a naively optimistic lie feminism starts to seem in its ideas that things can be improved. Their ability to see us as fully human is compromised by their dicks. Their sex drive and desire to shove their dicks in overrides their empathy with women, some more so than others but none are free of it. They go without sex long enough and you get hatred, resentment, and in the worst cases rape, and as we have seen with Sodini, Rogers and the many killers of their wives and girlfriends, murder. Some are much, much worse than others, most would not actively rape or murder but it really is just a matter of degree. We are for sex, we are for cleaning up their messes and waiting on them Their conversations and interactions with us, however sincere or interested they may seem, are calculated in order to obtain that. I don’t see a solution. I’m not lesbian so being alone is all I can do to be free, really. I guess it’s not so bad but I idly daydream of womankind abandoning the planet and leaving them all to punch, shoot, bomb, duck, rape themselves into oblivion. I used to think it was down to social conditioning and porn, like feminism told me. I don’t anymore. It’s their nature. REPLY 769. RaFeCaAugust 20, 2015 at 10:59 PM # Reblogged this on RaFeCaMe. REPLY 770. jenn smithJuly 11, 2016 at 2:42 PM # yup..men are arrogant entitled evil pieces of sh*t..they can act any way they want–jerks creeps psychos..and still consider themselves perfect but women who are nice kind doting caring make one move they dont like and they treat her as if shes crazy adn harass her..men are psychopaths..worthless creatures REPLY 771. James Rogers HunterAugust 31, 2016 at 9:00 PM # I would really like to have your opinion of me… …I am not being facetious, snarky, snide, or sarcastic in any way. I do respect you for what you say. I really would like to correspond with you and hear your opinion of me. I seem to mystify or puzzle women. I have never been able to have a successful relationship with a woman. Over ten years’ time, my last one went from adoring me to treating me like she was Lady of the Manor and I was the manure-covered stable boy and finally divorced me for some old half-baked hippie pothead with an IRS lien against him. I consider myself to be the antithesis of chauvanism. I truly respect and believe in the aspect of a woman as my equal but why do I always end up alone? My last experience was particularly heartbreaking for me and I may never really recover from it. Despite what they all seem to say, do most women secretly desire a chauvanist? I will never be someone like that… REPLY Trackbacks/Pingbacks 1. More on man-hating « redmegaera - July 13, 2009 […] Deuce has also taken up the subject of man-hating on her blog, Rage Against the Man-chine. It wouldn’t hurt if some of her commenters read this peice, either. It’s incredibly […] 2. Why I Hate Men Part 2: Guys Take Up Space « Rage Against the Man- chine - February 18, 2010 […] remember Airport Asshole, don’t you? He was the muse, as it were, that inspired me to write the Why I Hate Men series […] 3. Three Myths | Bella Shea - July 29, 2010 […] the ones with institutional power in society), no woman can be sexist. We can generalize and say we hate the majority of the other gender, but that is NOT being sexist because there is an imbalance of […] 4. The Emma Watson UN Speech - Exploring the News - September 22, 2014 […] there are some examples of women who hate men and are very forthcoming about it. The technical name for this would be misandry. But […] 5. Why Should We Call Ourselves Feminists | laurachinh - July 8, 2015 […] but some undefined ideology called ‘modern feminism.’ It appears they respond to some of the more extreme forms of feminism (finding a link to someone who actually harbors these ideas was enormously difficult, by the way) […] 6. Why We Need Feminism | laurachinh - July 27, 2015 […] but some undefined ideology called ‘modern feminism.’ It appears they respond to some of the more extreme forms of feminism (finding a link to someone who actually harbors these ideas was enormously difficult, by the way) […] Leave a Reply Top of Form

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