Transcript of an oral history Interview with Richard Morris Mann

May 7, 2004 at Mr. Mann's home Saint Paul, Minnesota

Interviewed by Kateleen Hope Cavett

as part of the HAND in HAND's RONDO ORAL HISTORY PROJECTProject Saint Paul, Minnesota Society At ninety years of a:ge, Mr. Mann shares his recollections of the economics and the business community of Rondo. He discusses the minimal opportunities for Black men to get good paying jobs. The war Historycreated significant employment opportunities for Blacks, but economics changed after the war when Black people were often the first to be laid off, creating a significant economic and social change for the neighborhood. Blacks' primaryOral opportunities Historical of employment were lower paying jobs often with disadvantages like being away from home a lot as a railroad waiters, or the dirty work of the packinghouses, or the service work of elevator operator or hotel waiter. The civil service jobs were great opportunities as Black and Whites were paid the same. He shares how his family came to Saint Paul and remembers his grandfather's barbershopRondo that catered to rich White patrons. He owned a bar the supported the Rondo community and a nightclub outside of the neighborhood that openly welcomed Black patrons and sponsored Black musicians. Mann goes on toMinnesota discuss the hardships the people and community experienced when the freeway was built. He describes in detail the history of the Sterling Club, a prestigious Black men's club founded in 1919. This is a transcript of taped interviews, edited slightly for clarity. A signed release is on file from Mr. Mann.

3 KC: Kateleen Cavett RM: Richard Mann

KC: We are at Mr. Mann's home in the north end of Saint Paul. Can you introduce yourself to me?

RM: My name is Richard Morris Mann. 1 I live at _ Western Avenue, Saint Paul, Minnesota, 55117, and I have consented to this interview with Ms.

Cavett.

KC: Thank you. You've been a member of the Sterling Club2 for quite a while. Can we talk about the Sterling Club? Can youProject share some of the history, and why the Sterling Club was important in the RondoSociety Community? RM: I have been a member of the Sterling Club in Saint Paul, Minnesota since 1949. At this time I am a Life Time Member, having become an honorary member three years ago. TheHistory Sterling Club was incorporated and founded in 1919. The purpose of the Sterling Club was founded as a social, charitable and Oralcivic organization. Historical The Sterling Club encourages its members and club to cooperate with other organizations and provide beneficial activities and programs for the community. Another purpose of the club is to provide leadership in the community. I have made notes and Rondoprobably this sounds like a record, but I have made these notes and I am reading from my notes. The club was chartered as a non-profit cooperativeMinnesota organization. In order to be a member of the Sterling Club,

1 Richard Morris Mann was born March 8, 1914. 2 Sterling Club was founded in 1918 and incorporated in 1919. It was located at 315 North Dale Street at Rondo. In 1958, it built a new home at 300 North St. Albans at Carroll, This private club was formed to give prestigious Black men , who were not allowed in White facilities, a place to meet and network,

8 originally was [males only,] age of fifty-five and older, and this is the

reason we obtained our non-profit organization, because it was organized

as a non-profit organization for senior members, and we're incorporated

under the State of Minnesota. Membership classifications include regular members, incorporated members, life members and honorary members, of

which I am now a life member. We have our regular meetings on [the

second] Friday evening of each month and the board, which consists of

nine members, meets on the first Friday of each month.

KC: Why was the Sterling Club Important? Originally the facility was located in the Rondo neighborhood. Why was the SterlingProject Club important in the Rondo neighborhood? Society RM: The Sterling Club first started - their first meetings were in the old Hallie Q. Brown Community Center,3 which didn't last too long. Originally there

was a membership of nine membersHistory who got together and put a few

dollars together and bought some property on Dale and Rondo. I think today it is called Concordia.Oral ThatHistorical was prior to the freeway , freeway 94, going through the area. They built a five-room structure that was

designed by the late Clarence Wigington,4 who also designed several other

buildings in Saint Paul, including the Harriett Island [Pavilion], several Rondo

3Hallie Q. Brown Community Center was opened in 1929 as a community center specifically to serve the Black community when the Black YWCA closed in 1928. Hallie Q, as it is affectionately known , has served all ages through child care, youth and Minnesotasenior clubs, athletics, music and social events. The original location was in the Union Hall at Aurora and Kent Streets. In1972, Hallie relocated in the Martin Luther King Building at 270 Kent Street at Iglehart in Saint Paul. The center's namesake was an educator who pioneered the movement of Black women 's clubs in the late 1800's. 4 Clarence Wesley "Cap" Wigington (1883 -1967) was born in Kansas City and raised in Omaha. He moved to Saint Paul in 1913, and for thirty-four years was a municipal architect for the City of Saint Paul , designing numerous Minnesota historical landmarks including the Roy Wilkins Auditorium , the Harriet Island Pavilion , and the Highland Water Tower.

9 schools, and Highland Golf Course [Club House and the Highland Water Tower on South Snelling Avenue]. Mr. Wigington designed the Sterling Club as a bungalow living quarters for tax purposes, in order that we

would not be classified as a commercial building. It had four rooms on the top floor, including a kitchen and a bath. The lower level, which was the

basement at that time, was never finished until later years. In fact, the furnace was installed on a cement slab in the basement.

After the Sterling Club had occupied these quarters for several years, the Redeemer Arms, which is a senior apartmentProject building, bought the property behind the Sterling Club and they negotiatedSociety with the Sterling Club in order to buy our property. The Redeemer Arms paid us a small

amount of money. It was enough money in order for us to put it into construction of a new buildingHistory on the corner of Saint Albans and Carroll. The new building was constructed in the years of 1957, between '57 and '58. That was theOral time that theHistorical freeway ran through that area. The building was constructed with funds from the sale of the old Sterling Club, plus we obtained a mortgage signed by, or guaranteed by, a couple of the members, including the president of the club. The president of the club at Rondothat time was Ted Hatcher. If I'm not mistaken, he was president for 1957, 1958. Some past current members [are] now deceased, [like] Clarence

Wigington.Minnesota

10 Some of the current members of the Twin Cities currently is Chief of Police William Finney; Bill Wilson, who was at one time a city council

member; Jim Griffin, the late James S. Griffin, who was the Deputy Chief.

Project Society Sterling Club 300 Saint Albans

[Another member, who was raisedHistory in Saint Paul and attended school in

Saint Paul] is Gordon Parks, who is a photographer. [He] is an honorary member. Judge StevenOral Maxwell Historical was a past member. Doctor Kerman Gaines, [at one time] the superintendent of schools is a past member.

[Gaines moved out of the city after being replaced as Superintendent of

Schools in Saint Paul.] KC: WhatRondo I'm hearing, Mr. Mann, is that this was a club for the professional men inMinnesota the community. The names you're giving are people that have degrees and are working as professionals in the community. Why did they

need the Sterling Club? RM: Actually, the Sterling Club was not created for professional people alone.

It just so happened that it was an asset to professional people to belong to

11 a community organization like the Sterling Club. The Sterling Club also caused professional people to have a closer contact with the Afro­ American people in the vicinity. Also, it was prestigious to belong to the Sterling Club, because of the membership, because of their background, the close background, and because of the original creators and members who were the majority of social, prominent Black people in the Twin Cities, [not always professional people.]

KC: Saint Paul is an old city. There are a number of prestigious organizations for people to belong to in Saint Paul. Would they invite Black people in? [Clubs like the Saint Paul Athletic Club, the ProjectMinnesota Club, Kiwanis.] Is that why the Sterling Club was created? Society RM: I am not following that question. Would you restate that? KC: Was the Sterling Club created because the prestigious Black men in the community were not invitedHistory to join other prestigious organizations to be able to network? RM: That is not exactlyOral the reason Historical for the creation of the club. The reason for the creation of the club was to have a place for Black males to congregate, socialize. As the majority, a lot of the members not only were the professional members, but some of the original members were railroad Rondomembers and people that were in and out of town, and they liked to have a placeMinnesota to go in the afternoons and socialize, play checkers, play bridge, play whist, maybe ten cent tonk or poker, whatever. This was a meeting place for them and we had a manager that practically lived in the Sterling Club because the quarters were so established that they could spend a lot of time in the Sterling Club.

12 KC: Obviously, you belonged to both facilities. If you were to describe the facilities, both facilities have a kitchen, so when you have meetings do you

serve meals? RM: Usually they have meals. A lot of times in recent years on Friday night meetings they have-I would say that two or three or four persons of the organization are responsible for serving the meals.

Prior to the new facility, I would say approximately about ten years prior to our new facility, an auxiliary was formed for the wives of the members of the Sterling Club, which as I mentioned beforeProject was strictly male. The auxiliary was an asset to the club because they helped Societyus raise moneys for the operation of the facility. They did not have to pay dues to the Sterling Club. They paid dues within their own organization and they were an asset to the club, always haveHistory been and there's a great respect for the auxiliary of the Sterling Club as well as the members. KC: I know Chief GriffinOral has passed. Historical Does Mrs. Griffin still-is she able to remain a member of the auxiliary? RM: Any member who is deceased or for some reason or another does not belong to the club any longer because of moving or whatever, their wife canRondo still be a part of the auxiliary of the Sterling Club and have the privilegesMinnesota of the auxiliary. However, the women are not allowed to have keys or the pass cards to get into the club. They have to have their spouse or someone associated with the club in order to gain entrance into the club.

13 KC: I've been there. It's a clubhouse. It has a beverage area, it has card rooms,

it's a comfortable place for members to have a horne away from horne and

be able to socialize and network. RM: Yes, the club has a very nice recreation area, which is used by members

and auxiliary of the club only. Whenever the club is leased out or used by

other civic organizations or groups for parties, they are not allowed into

the undercrofts of the Sterling Club where we have our social gatherings.

We have a bar, and members have their own lockers to keep their liquors­

whatever, beer or liquor, whatever they want - in order. The lockers are

across from the bar. Recently they've installedProject a pool table in the basement. The club is very comfortable, carpetedSociety and air-conditioned. And recently, they are planning on putting on a patio, installing a patio to

the club. It's an asset as far as appearance goes to the neighborhood. If

anyone that's in the area Historyand goes past, the address is 300 North Saint

Albans, and anyone who ever pass it, theyOral do not Historical realize it's a commercial

building because it fits right

ill with the area of Rondoresidential homes and is

well kept. The building itself Minnesota Original Sterling Club and lawn is well kept. 315 Dale Street KC: Yes, it's a beautiful facility.

5 Undercroft is a chamber underground, the lowest level, as in a finished basement space.

14 The club is like a bottle club where you can get set ups, but it doesn't have

a liquor license; you have to bring your own liquor in. Do they have specific events, like Memorial Day parties or Super Bowl parties or dances for members and guests? RM: We do not have a liquor license. I will go back to the original facility when we first established up on Dale Street. At that time it was popular for the breweries to obtain liquor license for individual organizations and the Schmidt's Brewery6 obtained a license for us to dispense beer. At one time, we could sell, dispense beer, tap beer or bottle, within the facility, nothing for off sale. Also, the only license we had to haveProject 'was an order to obtain the beer license from Schmidt's Brewery, which wasSociety common not only with the Sterling Club, but a lot of the licenses were owned by the different breweries around the state. The only license that we had to have from the city was a restaurant Historylicense and that permitted us to serve food and soft drink and, of course, we were covered the beer license from the Schmidt's Brewery. Oral Historical

When we did finish off our basement several years after we were established, we had the basement set up as a recreational area and Schmidt'sRondo Brewery installed the bar free of charge in order to dispense Schmidt'sMinnesota beer only. We also had the privilege with our license so we

6 Jacob Schmidt Brewing Co . was located at 882 West Seventh Street. Beer was first made on this land in 1855 by German settlers. Cave Brewery was at this location in the 1800s. They sold to Saint Paul Brewing in 1897, who sold to Schmidt in 1900. By 1936 Jacob Schmidt Brewing Co was the seventh largest brewing company in the US. The facility was sold several limes in Ihe laler 1900, wilh Minnesota Brewing ("Sed Ihe doors in 2002.

15 could get a commercial price from foods and coke, like Coca-Cola and other soft drinks. They would make regular deliveries to our facility. KC: Do you still have that arrangement and do you still have a restaurant license? RM: As far as the license for selling liquor or dispensing liquor, it was outlawed several years ago. The breweries are not allowed to set up or furnish license or finance licenses for off sale or on sale, to my knowledge. This happened to the advantage of independent owners to keep the breweries from having a monopoly. However, I think I mentioned before that we have-the bar we have now, we doProject not sell beer or anything like that because we don't have a license for off sale. HoweverSociety the bar is used by the members who have lockers with their own liquor or beer, whatever, to use across the bar. KC: And you still have a restaurantHistory license? RM: To my knowledge. I'm not too sure about that, but I'm pretty sure that we do have, whichOral is really not Historicalnecessary because we do not sell food. I don't think we have-we do not have a restaurant license. In fact, this past year we also lost our non-profit tax exempt because of the fluctuation of the age of the members. As time goes on we have lost senior members, a lot of Rondosenior members, and our age limits had been reduced to under fifty-five years of age and this eliminated our non-profit organization, and as of the

pastMinnesota year or two we have had to pay our licenses and property taxes, the only thing we were paying up until the past year or two was the city assessments.

16 KC: Anything else you want to share with me about the Sterling Club? How it has made a difference in you life? RM: To me the Sterling Club has been a social asset. As I was in business myself a couple of times, it has been an advantage to my being recognized and knowing people of the community, socializing with people in different professions and actually the camaraderie is one of the main things in the Sterling Club as far as I am concerned. KC: You've referred to owning a couple of businesses. Can we talk about that? RM: I was associated [as a part owner] with a nightclub out Project Treasure Inn on Rice Street in 1948 and 1691 RJ ••• . ce St. SocietyBU. 9993 '49, on Rice Street and THE SMART PLACE TO f)lne and f)an(:e Larpenteur. It was called OPEN EVERY NITE History RICHARD " O/CK', MANN, Treasure Inn. 7 I was in ~=====~~~~~~;;~~I r.=~~~~===-~ business with two partners, Oral Historicalone of them was my stepbrother and the other was a person by the name of Rondo Howard Brown, who was a businessman in Saint Paul Minnesota [and] had a tailoring establishment.

7 Treasure Inn was located 1685 Rice Street at Larpenteur near McCarron Lake. This establishment was known as a welcoming place for Black and White patrons where they could hear great music.

17 TREASURE INN NIGHT CLUB GRAND OPENING Saturday, Nov. 2 (Formerly Rochester) Under New Ownership DICK MANN, HOWARD BROWN and CLAUDE MASON Good Food, Dancing and Beer 1691 Rice Street St. Paul Six Blocks from End of Rice Street Car Line Project They Will Manag"easure Inn Societyto Open Novembe~ 2

History

Oral Historical

Rondo

Tr~asure Inn, formerJy t~e Rochest~r, located at Rice Stl'cct "nd Wheelock Park,vay (16Ul Rice S~.),.wJlI have the grand openmg under Its new oWIlership on Saturday evening, Nov.~. New partnership trlO lh" Clau~e Mason, left, Howard Brown, center, an d Richard Mann, right. The Inn has been remodeled Minnesotaf or t C opemng. Beer and a val'jed food menu will be featured at the Inn.

We had a nightclub out on Rice and Larpenteur. At that time, we were able to sell set ups because we were out of the City of Saint Paul. Actually, were under the jurisdiction of Roseville. We were at Larpenteur Avenue

18 and Rice Street. The dividing line was Larpenteur A venue and we were just north of Larpenteur A venue. I was in business there for a little over two years, 1948 and' 49 if I'm not mistaken. And we had a tragedy there that caused us to close-really we weren't closed up, but the fact that our [business fell off, we ] sold out and left the area.

,', No. 1104'" Receipt. No ;2645~ "Y ,

Tow n !>f Project Society

'. ' :. :'''. '. NON-INT.o.XICATING MALT LIQUORS ~f.. & igin: ' P~;~~;:; : ~tA~Ad;es:. in t~e T ownshiP 'specifi ed above~ for cons1l1np ti ;;~ ~jJ .tb~ said p T~m/ses 1 , ~ ., 0':'/)': in ' at-I~ia." ,~~ : with' ~~rej- . 116 ~.L ; 1.9 J J ~:'~ all Amendm.,,!, th ~T~to . , , . H . , ,Tbis Lic~lI se .¥,".t Be Kept Posted 1-11. AHistory Conspicuous Pa.,·t, Of Tbe Above Place .of Bus;ness. fi " .' :' : .... ,"'< ~ot:"-1: {~'lUf erab l e fT~m Person to P.ersQ1' or Place to Place.. ~

:::'i, . .!his t!'c~,! si !s ;ssll.ed ..~b L~c t to' all La w~ of tbe State of Minnesota, and Regulations of tbe Co:mty of [j Ramsey; and, may' be:re'volC!tl' at any time fo r:: violation tbereof. " " : ':. ..g · tbe of and the Seal thereof June, 19.'::7' , I W!t ~e~s. tbe ~~e~! Oral~~~; 01, COU ~~y HistoricalR~msey t;'is~iJay'o f , .' ~~;;t:, :, 'iu!i~~ A;. MOr:u~. ' .: " . THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMIS SIQ~ERS ' _: !.~~ ~ '~~.>:: · ' C~ii ntY. ~ dito!'. . OF~~TY .' , .. , : ;:~ ~~ ~ " , B~~: 4~~~ra~ , ~ V I CE CH" I A"U'N. ~ '.' r,...... =

I wouldRondo like to also mention the fact that the nightclub that we had catered mainly Minnesotato a lot of college kids. We had a clientele from the University of Minnesota, Hamline [University], all the colleges, because we furnished live Black music from local musicians. Percy Hughes, who had a five piece band, the Prince's dad, the current Prince's dad, whose name was at that time Prince Rogers. That's why his son Prince today has taken his name

19 Project Society

History

Oral Historical

Rondo

Above: Minnesota Melvin Carter, with suspenders between playing trumbet, Dave Faison playing base, and Buddy Davis playing piano

At right Mr. Mann at Treasure Inn

20 My other involvement In

business after that was two years prior to the closing of the Rondo area and the building of the freeway. I was on the corner of Chatsworth and Rondo. There was a beer tavern that we rented. Mann with partner by Chatsworth Inn The beer tavern we had on

Chatsworth and Rondo was called the ChatsworthProject Inn.8 We rented the facility from a lady who had owned the building, by theSociety name of Weston. Ed Salter was my partner and we ran the 3-2-beer tavern there called, as I

mentioned, the Chatsworth Inn, for about two years. This was during the time of the Korean History War, and our business was real profitable Oralfor Historical a while because at that time a lot of the people, a lot of our customersRondo were employedMinnesota in the different facilities during the war and we were quite successful for about a year and a half. And then as the war gradually died down and came to an end, I went to work [at the post office]. I sold out to my partner practically

8 Chatsworth Inn was located 979 Rondo at Chatsworth .

21 for nothing. I had a family 9 so I made an application at the Post Office and passed the Post Office test and went to work in the Post Office. That was

in the year of 1953. I sold out as I said. I sold out my interest in the tavern

to concentrate my full time at the Post Office, on my job at the Post Office,

which was necessary because of my family life.

KC: How many years were you with the Post Office? RM: I retired after thirty years in the Post Office. I worked in the Post Office

from 1953 until '83. I think that would be thirty years, yeah. I started out

as-when I first took the examination I was a mail handler and I didn't

like that because it was manual labor and IProject thought I was more capable, rather than doing manual labor. So I took the testSociety as a clerk, which I passed with no problem. And during my thirty years, with the exception

of one year as a mail handler, I was a clerk, window clerk. And during the History

Oral Historical

Rondo

Mr. Mann in 1972 at the EEOMinnesota office at the Post Office

9 Children are Richard John Mann born 1945, Stephen Turner Mann born 1948, and Margo Grace Mann Lainer born 1950.

22 years of 1970 and '71, I was an EEO-Equal Employment Opportunity counselor of the Saint Paul Post Office and, like I say, I retired in 1983. Having accumulated one year of sick leave, I was able to retire with thirty years benefits with only have served twenty-nine years in the Post Office. [I got credit for one year accumulated sick leave.]

KC: The Chatsworth Inn, can we talk a little bit more about that? You served food and liquor. Was there live music there? What did that business look like? Project Society

History

Oral Historical

RM: The Chatsworth was definitely a beer parlor. We served only beer and food-wise, we did not have a license, restaurant license per se, but we sold likeRondo hot dogs and bratwurst and potato chips and that type of thing, along with beer.Minnesota We also had recreational games like skeet ball or bowling ball­ that type of machine, [and juke box for music]. We had about three different types of machines where people could play for a dime or a quarter, whatever. And they were quite profitable because they created competition and we were very fortunate in the location we were in. We

23 •

had a clientele of not only families, but about sixty percent of our business was afternoon women, ladies that were homemakers that were not

employed during the war and the different war situations. We had people come from Minneapolis. We had quite a few people come from Minneapolis because of the camaraderie and the area. Our clientele were people that were socially, to a degree, socially acquainted in the community and the majority of them were friends. We did not have too many people come into the tavern that were not from the Rondo area

[only]. Project Society

History

Oral Historical

Rondo KC: So it was a neighborhood-gathering place?

RM: It wasMinnesota a gathering place, as I say it was a gathering place and the people were just like a large family. We were well known [and had friends from both Minneapolis and Saint Paul]. We never had any problems there. Because of the location there was never any ruckus outside and the few

24 disputes were controlled. But the two-and-a-half years or three years we

were there, we never once had to call the police because of a dispute or misunderstanding. KC: You said that after the war business fell off. Can I interpret that to mean that during the war both people in the home were employed, economics was better in the neighborhood, and then after the war when the soldiers came back, people in the Rondo neighborhood had some trouble getting jobs? The job market changed. RM: The job market changed because of the ending of the war. Because, as we all know, most of the plants, the war plants, hadProject two or three shifts. They worked around the clock. And we were able to profitSociety from the different shifts. In fact, we had business in the mornings. People that would work all night long, sometimes they'd stop in for a beer on their way home. And then in the afternoon, the afternoonHistory shift we'd get the shift for people going home for dinner, after dinner. And then we had the late night shift, which was not alwaysOral employees Historical of the different plants, ammunition plants,IO etc. They were local as well. But when the war wound down, why naturally we were not supported by the people that we had been supported by, because of the economic situation. Rondo Minnesota

10 Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant of the Federal Cartridge Corporation covered a four square mile area in New Brighton . In 1942, it began production of four billion rounds of ammunition for war efforts. It was placed on inactive and stand-by status from 1950 - 1965, and again began production of ammunition during the Vietnam War. Placement on layaway status began in 1971 . In 2002, some land was transferred to Ramsey County Parks. The Ordinance Plant, as it was known , hired Blacks at all levels according to their skills, education , and training. At one point it employed 20% of the state's adult Black population .

25 •

Matchbook from the Chatsworth Inn

KC: Did you see other economic changes in the community? When the war wound down the Rondo neighborhood, had a lot of people that worked

labor, so they worked in the factory, did that start to affect the economics of the community besides at the ChatsworthProject Inn? RM: I would say that because of the wind down of the war,Society actually, there was a time that unemployment started to escalate and there was a change in the area and in our business, and all business, not only our business. But, as I was saying, during theHistory wind down of the war there were times when people did not have the money to drink beer that they had during the war, which wasOral an asset. Historical KC: Were you living in the Rondo community? RM: I was not living in the Rondo community. I moved from Minneapolis in the year of 1948 and I bought property in the Como area, Western RondoAvenue, where I have lived in Saint Paul since 1948. I bought a house on the corner of Nebraska-Western and Nebraska, for nine thousand dollars

if I'mMinnesota not mistaken. And this was at the time when I had gotten involved in the Treasure Inn. And when I bought the property, I bought the house, which is still in existence, for nine thousand dollars. The gentleman, Mr.

Washington, that owned the property was a Black person who had owned

26 several lots in the area and he sold me my house, his house, for nine thousand dollars, and I could have bought several lots. He owned six lots

next door to the lot I bought, the house I bought. I could have bought the other lots. My mortgage would have increased to probably fifty dollars a month, which was an excessive amount of money at that time, because of

my income. My mortgage payment was only twenty-five dollars, which included one lot. I bought one lot next door to the lot that had the house. In later years, in 1960, I was able to sell the house I was in and I built a new home next door on the lot that I owned, which is _ Western Avenue North, where I still reside. Project KC: In the Rondo community after the war, would you saySociety that less people were employed and that the economics started to get more difficult in the community? RM: Actually, there's no question aboutHistory it, that at the end of the war there were a lot of people that were unemployed that had been employed during the war that lost their jobs.Oral And this Historical is about the same time that they decided to build a freeway right through the middle of the Rondo area and there were a lot of homes that were purchased for the construction of the freeway, which helped people relocate. And in some instances it was a hardshipRondo on people to have to move, and move out of the area. And, in my opinion, today in time when you look back, the freeway is an asset. At that time,Minnesota I didn't think too much of it, but the majority of the area residents would agree that they were not happy. Not only because of the relocation, because of the hardships of relocating. And people were limited to [live in certain] areas. And this caused a hardship, mainly

27 because of relocation and trying to find proper housing for the money that they had. And at that time the new homes construction had not started. A few years after that they did start building the homes [public housing], like the in areas for housing where people could find housing. But it was a hardship, in my opinion, when they first ran the freeway through the area.

Not only for the businesses, but also for the children's schooling, etc. It was a hardship. KC: What did the Rondo community mean to the people that lived there or had businesses there? Was there was a sense of Black community in that area? Project RM: Actually, the businesses that were affected, relocatedSociety to a degree, most of them were small pa and rna business. But actually it was a hardship. As I said before, it was a hardship for relocation, especially for the businesses as well as the families. History KC: Can you talk more about how it was a hardship, how it changed the community, howOral it changed theHistorical Black community? RM: In some instances it was advantageous for some people because they did better themselves as far as housing. But the majority of people because of their low income and securing mortgages, etc., they had a · hard time Rondorelocating until the housing development carne to be. KC: NowMinnesota you were raised in Minneapolis? RM: I was born in Saint Paul and my teenage years were shared partially in

Minneapolis and partially in Saint Paul. My parentsll moved back and

11 Mother Grace Starks Mann was born August 11 , 1886 and passed August 23,1981 , and father Richard Matison Mann was born in Milan, Tennessee in 1874 and passed in 1924.

28 forth between the Twin Cities. I was born in Saint Paul as I said, but I

went my elementary school, kindergarten through sixth grade was spent

in Minneapolis, and I went to Bryant Junior High SchooP2 in Minneapolis

from my elementary school, which was a brand new school on 38th and

Fourth Avenue, which was right in the core, right in the center of the

Black community in Minneapolis. I went there for two years and then my folks moved to Saint Paul and I went to Marshall,13 which was a brand

new junior high. I went to Marshall Junior High for one year then I went to Saint Paul Central, and my folks moved back to Minneapolis and I graduated from Central High SchOOP4 in MinneapolisProject in 1935. In fact, Minneapolis Central High School at that time was rightSociety in the center of the Black neighborhood. However the year I graduated there was only fourteen Black students in the school and there were only two persons in

my graduation class, and that wasHistory in 1935.

KC: When you were back living in Saint Paul, I have the illusion that you were in or around the RondoOral community Historical if you went to Marshall. What are your memories? This would have been the late nineteen-teens. What are

you memories of the community then?

RM: [At this point we lived at 743 Carroll.] When Marshall Junior High was built,Rondo which was a brand new junior high school and one of the finer schools Minnesotain the Twin Cities, there was still only about sixteen or eighteen

12 Bryant Junior High School was located at 3737 3rd Avenue South in Minneapolis. 13 Marshall School was built in 1925 at Grotto, Holly, Ashland and st. Albans. It was Marshall Junior High from 1926- 1937. In 1937, 10th grade was added ; in 1938, 11 th grade; and in 1939, 12th grade was added , with graduating classes from 1940 to 1953. It returned to junior high only in 1954. Webster Elementary School was built on the same site in 1926. The two buildings were connected in 1975 and become Webster Magnet Elementary School. . 14 Minneapolis Central High School was located at 3416 4th Avenue South in Minneapolis.

29 Blacks in the school. One of them happened to be Chester Oden, who was

in later years was known for his barbeque restaurants1S in the Twin Cities.

He and I, and a few other young Black men, were the core of the Blacks in Marshall Junior High. I can't say too much about that because being a teenager in a junior high school, I cared less about the community, actually-other than the fact that I enjoyed being able to go to the school I

went to. By the way, Chester Oden was the first Black school police16

appointed by-he came to Marshall Junior High from a Catholic school, a Catholic grade school if I'm not mistaken. Well, I know Chet Oden came from a Catholic school, and one of the sistersProject was instrumental in having Chester Oden appointed as a school policeman. AndSociety he was the first Black school patrol in the City of Saint Paul. KC: You mean while he was in school? RM: Marshall Junior High School.History KC: And Saint Paul had one of the very first police school programs in the nation. BesidesOral Marshall JuniorHistorical High as a teenager, what were the things that you did? Where did you go to hang out or to play? RM: When I was going to Marshall Junior High School, my activities were

between Hallie Q. Brown Community Center and, actually, the normal Rondothings for boys, playing sandlot baseball. I was quite active. I never developedMinnesota into being an athlete, but I played a lot of sandlot baseball, and

15 Road Buddy's Bar-B-Q, owned by Chet Oden , was located at 386 West Central Avenue at Western in 1949. By the mid-1950's they had relocated to 799 University Avenue . 16 School Police Patrol was formed through a city ordinance in February 1921 , after Sister M. Carmella, the principal of Cathedral School and a strong advocate for the proposal , organized the first unit. This is believed to be the first School Patrol in the world .

30 football to a limited amount, which was all sandlot as far as I was concerned. [Most of these sandlot games were at Maxfield playground.]

I also would like to say that my education was limited to my graduation from high school. I never had the opportunity to go to college because of financial reasons and other things. To give you my background, my dad passed away when I was eleven years old, so my mother practically raised the family by [her] employment, with the help from some of the family Project Society

Dick (6/7 years), History Mother Grace with one of twin sister Pearl, Laura Mae Historical and Helen in front, Oral Father Richard Sr., with Jewel. members. I always had in mind to go to college, but my main object was to becomeRondo an undertaker because I knew a couple of undertakers in the Twin CitiesMinnesota and it looked like to me they were rich and they had money, and that's what I wanted to do, I wanted to be an undertaker so I could be rich and have money. At that time I had made an application to go to the University of Minnesota through some help from the counselor from Central High School in Minneapolis. But the amount of tuition was

31 nominal. In fact, to become an undertaker at that time, it was only a one­ year of credits. You could get a license as a funeral director in one year's time. And I think original tuition, if I'm not mistaken, I think it was less

than fifteen hundred dollars or something. I couldn't. It just was impossible and then I kind of lost my interest too, after being out of high school for a couple years. KC: And yet you went into business. You found ways to start businesses. RM: I didn't go into business until I was an adult. Prior to that I always had menial jobs, like I worked in a car garage polishing cars right after I got out of high school. I had a shoe shine job, all Projectmenial jobs. My grandfather17 owned a barbershop18 and I shined shoes. AndSociety then I got a job in Minneapolis at a clothing store, called Godnick's Clothing Store19 and that was during the time that I was going to high school, I think, or it might have been right after that. HistoryBut anyway, I got a job as a porter cleaning up

th~ Godnick's Clothing Store in Minneapolis. And Mr. Godnick found out that I was prettyOral well known Historical in the community and he offered me a proposition that any Blacks that I brought in that were friends of mine - I could bring them into the store, even though I was only the porter - that whenever I would bring somebody in there he would give me a five Rondopercent commission if they bought any clothing. At that time you could buy a suit for thirty-five dollars, a tailor made suit, almost for thirty-five, Minnesota

17 Turner J. Starks was born in Starkville Mississippi in 1858 and passed in Saint Paul in 1949. 18 T. J. Stark's barbershop was located at 1656 Grand Avenue 19 Godnick and Fassbinder was located at 400 Nicollet Avenue in downtown Minneapolis. Louis S. and Stanly A Grodnick were the owners.

32 forty dollars. And I remember very distinctly of knowing Gordon Parks.20 Gordon Parks was quite a dapper person. He liked nice clothes and things, and I was responsible for selling him some of his nicer clothes that he bought through Godnick's. I also remember Lester Young, 21 who was a

musician, professional musician, who was located in and out of Minneapolis at that time. I had known him through activities in some of the nightclubs and things, and I talked him into corning and buying a suit and the Godnick's store advertised in the Minneapolis Spokesman.22 Had my picture in the paper. I was making salary-wise something like fifteen dollars a week with my five percent commissionProject I made from selling clothes I was able to make twenty-five, thirty dollars a week,Society which at that time made me pretty independent and I was always, everybody thought I was always rich' cause I like to spend money. KC: You said that you were a porterHistory for Godnick 's. What did you do as a porter? RM: As a porter I kept theOral place clean. Historical They had several display windows and whenever the window decorators would corne in to change the windows, the mannequins, etc., I washed the windows, carpet, and cleaned. Keep

20 Gordon Parks (1912- ) was the youngest of fifteen children . His mother died when he was young and he went to live with a sisterRondo in Saint Paul. Unwelcome by his brother-in-law, he soon found himself living on his own and struggling to attend school and support himself. He self-taught himself in many areas including photography and filmmaking, becoming a nationally recognized photographer for Life, Vogue, and Glamour. He won many firsts for a Black photojournalist. He wasMinnesota the first Black to direct a major Hollywood film, The Learning Tree, which he wrote and produced . He also gained recognition as a writer, poet and composer. 21 Willis Lester Young (1909 - 1959) was a nationally recognized jazz saxophonist who played with Blue Devils, King Oliver, Count Basie, Fletcher Henderson, Teddy Wilson and Billie Holiday, who allegedly gave him his nickname "Pres" or "Prez." 22 The Minneapolis Spokesman was founded in 1934 by Cecil E. Newman and is the longest-lived Black newspaper in Minnesota. The Saint Paul Recorder later began publication under Newman. The newspaper remains under the same family ownership and is now known as the Minnesota Spokesman-Recorder.

33 the store up and wash the windows on the outside and mop, anything that they called for cleaning the store. You also had a tailor, ready made tailoring department, which was on the second floor, and I had to keep that up. But Godnick's main business concentrating on businessmen was tailor made clothes and I think I had one or two Black persons that I sold to. One of them was a businessman in Minneapolis that I sold tailor made suits to. Like I say, tailor made suits at that time thirty-five, forty dollars, fifty dollars was tops. KC: Now he had you selling and yet, you were a porter and he didn't promote you to be a salesperson. Project RM: When I would bring my friends in - I would have mySociety friends ask for me. I would tell them to come at a certain time, and when they would come in the store I had to get one of the salesman, and I would walk around with the salesman and take thisHistory friend of mine through the store and make suggestions to him, but when it come to the finalizing of the sales, the salesman wouldOral write up theHistorical sale and make the final decisions. It would go through the regular routine. But as long as I brought a person in there, even if I was doing my manual porter work, mopping or sweeping, whatever, whenever that person came in I would follow them around and Rondotalk and make suggestions to them. KC: I have the illusion that all the salesmen were White? RM: TheMinnesota salesmen were all White. There were three salesmen-all White, and they did not resent the fact that I would be involved with them when a person come in, because they were also making commission off the sales. So I had a good rapport with the salesmen.

34 KC: Did you ever resent the fact that he wouldn't promote you to be a salesman, because, again I have the illusion, maybe because you were Black? RM: I think that I didn't feel that I was capable of being a salesman at the level a salesman had to be in order to sell. I was so happy to get the five percent commission with my regular fifteen dollar a week salary that it never dawned on me whether or not I would ever become a salesman, and that was the farthest thing from my mind, to concentrate on being a clothing salesman. KC: This sounds like racism. Project RM: During the time that I was employed as a helper in the Societyclothing store there were no Black salesman to my knowledge in any other clothing stores. And at one time, there were several prominent clothing stores in the Twin Cities. One of them which is Historystill in existence, if I'm not mistaken, was Hubert White's.23 Juster Bros's, Rothchild's24 were prominent for men's clothiers, but there wasOral no Black Historicalsalesmen and I'm sure it was a case of the pattern of not employing Blacks in a certain area or a certain level­

especially of salesmanship. Definitely. It was definitely because that was not the pattern. KC: WhichRondo then would go on to describe why after the war the economics in the RondoMinnesota community had trouble maintaining the same level, because

23 Hubert W. White's slogan is "fine apparel for men since 1916. They were located in the old Radisson Hotel on Seventh Street between Hennepin and Nicollet. When the hotel was moved they moved into the IDS Building in Minneapolis. 24 Maurice L. Rothchild & Co. was located at 315-329 Nicollet Avenue at 4th Street in Minneapolis

35 there weren't as many jobs being open to the Black people in the community. RM: There was always employment on the railroads and hotels. The majority of the hotels had waiters, Black waiters in them. And the clubs, the prominent clubs, like the Athletic Club,25 etc., they employed Blacks. Saint

Paul First National Bank26 had Black elevator operators, which was a pretty good, average wage area. The moneymakers-I mean, as far as employment goes, were the Blacks that worked in the packinghouses.

There was several Blacks in the packinghouse, In fact, at one time to my knowledge, we had five or six Black meat Projectinspectors in Saint Paul, and that was a top job as far as employment goes. WeSociety had five Black meat inspectors, which was a good job. There was a paint manufacturing company that employed some Blacks so that salary was comparable to the Whites because of the riskHistory of working in a paint factory. The main jobs, like I was saying before, was the Post Office, which was civil service, meat inspectors, railroads,Oral and hotelsHistorical were the means of livelihood during that era. KC: And, yet, a number of the people that had these jobs did have college

degrees? RM: RondoNot necessarily. I mean, you find the meat inspectors naturally had to haveMinnesota a degree. Most of them went down to Iowa. I think they have a veterinary program at University of Iowa. They were professional and

25 Saint Paul Athletic Club was located downtown at 340 Cedar Street. It closed in the early 1990's. 26 First National Bank was located downtown Saint Paul between Minnesota Street, Robert Street, Fourth Street and Fifth Street.

36 they had to have a degree and they made the money. Post Office, civil

service, naturally there couldn't be any discrimination there. If you passed

the civil service you were entitled to the same salary as anybody else. The only problem in the area was promotions. During the time I was in the postal system, we had a director of personnel who was LeRoy Lasenbury, and that was one of the top jobs as far as a Black was concerned in the Saint Paul Post Office. Otherwise, the means of livelihood was mainly the railroads and the hotels. And that was during the era of the 1940's to the 60's. KC: What other memories would you like to share withProject me about growing up, about the Rondo community? Society RM: I was born in Saint Paul. I was born on Central Avenue in 1914. I also would like to mention this: when I was born the hospital, I was born in Saint Paul. I think they called theHistory hospital, General Hospital. KC: Ancker. RM: Ancker. It was AnckerOral HospitaP Historical7 My mother often tells the story about when I was born. My mother was quite fair. Her mother and father were both Black, but she was quite fair in complexion. And when I was born in the Ancker Hospital, she tells the story about my dad was a railroad man. He Rondowas out of town and he was a light brown skinned fellow. When I was born theMinnesota nurses were running around trying to figure out, because I was a little brown baby and my mother was so fair, they didn't know exactly

27 Ancker Hospital opened in 1872 as the City and County Hospital. In 1923, it was renamed in honor of its late superintendent Arthur B. Ancker. Over the years it encompassed twelve buildings over several acres with a mailing address at 495 Jefferson. In 1965 it moved to 640 Jackson Street and was renamed Saint Paul Ramsey Hospital, renamed again in 1977 Saint Paul-Ramsey Medical Center, and in 1997, renamed Regions Hospital.

37 how to classify me on the birth certificate. And right today, I have my birth certificate, and my birth certificate says mulatto.28 And my mother used to laugh quite often about that because there was so much confusion in the hospital when I was born. KC: That's a great story. RM: The reason I tell that story is because my mother mentioned it so many times and every now and then I pull out the birth certificate and show it to

my grandkids, my birth certificate, which dates back to 1914 and it says Richard Morris Mann, mulatto. KC: Any other stories you want to share with me,Project sir? RM: There's a lot of stories I could probably tell, but limitedSociety time. 1'd like to mention the fact that my grandfather on my mother's side was a

successful barber in the Twin Cities. It had nothing to do with the Rondo area or the Black community,History because his shop was on Grand and Macalester, out by Macalester College and he catered to White clientele, which most of theOral Black barbershops Historical - there were several Black barbershops in the Twin Cities. Mainly in Saint Paul, there were four to my knowledge. And besides my grandfather on Grand and Macalester, there was Hall Bros,29 which was very prominent in downtown Saint Paul. Rondo They catered to Whites and the politicians and the doctors and musicians andMinnesota so forth. And if a Blac,k person would come in, well, they would

28 Mulatto refers to a biracial person with a Black and White parentage. 29 Hall Bros was located at 12 West 5th Street.

38 Project Society

Turner J. Stark's Barbershop at 1656 Grand Avenue GrandfatherHistory in the rear of picture either turn them down, their own people, either that or take them in the back room and cutOral their hair, Historical because they thought it would be a detriment to their White business. And the same thing happened to my grandfather's barbershop on Grand and Macalester. When my father died and I was ten years old, I went to work in my grandfather's barbershop shiningRondo shoes and cleanup, and that was a means of helping my mother in income,Minnesota and my grandfather would always give me a little extra money. His business was strictly the rich in the Summit area and the Grand­ Macalester area, which was the-when I say the rich, the Bohn's, the

Fligimans, the Sands were all wealthy people. The majority of them had Black chauffeurs and maids, and Black gardeners and that type of thing,

39 and that's the Summit area I would say, from Cleveland to the downtown area. Some of the mansions are still in existence and those that haven't been converted [to condos], you'll always see a building in the back of mansion, which looks like a two-story garage or something, and that's where the help used to have their quarters, upstairs over the garages. And a lot of the Black chauffeurs used to bring the children to my grandfather's barbershop. He catered to women and children. In fact, his shop was spotless. He would not allow smoking, et cetera, so we had quite a business. He also started a [second] business. He built a building on Saint Clair, 2028 Saint Clair, which is still in Projectexistence. He had problems building that building during the 1930's, because ofSociety the fact that he was Black and at one time the Ku Klux Klan was active around the Twin Cities here, and I'm not biting my tongue at all about that. I'm sure that that is

. knowledgeable to people backHistory in that time, that the Ku Klux Klan was active in the Twin Cities. And during the time he was building his building on SaintOral Clair, I rememberHistorical the address very [clearly]. I think the building still might be in existence, 2028 Saint Clair, and twice during the construction - he had a Black contractor who was putting in the basement, and twice during the construction a person would during the night go Rondodown and tear down some of the construction that had been started. This was finally resolved and the building - because my grandfather had contactMinnesota with some of these politicians in the downtown courthouse and the police department, they finally resolved that and he got the building finished and completed. So at one time he owned two barbershops, and

40 the building still is in existence at 1656 Grand A venue, which is right there on Macalester and Grand by Macalester College. KC: What was your grandfather's name? RM: Turner Starks. My grandfather came up from Mississippi. His parents were slaves. He came up here way back when. I don't remember when. I have the date someplace. But anyway, he came up here with a doctor, a White doctor. He was a valet. My grandfather was a valet to a White doctor and that's where he learned to cut hair. He never went to a barber college or anything like that. He used to cut the doctor's hair and the boys in the family's hair and that's where he got his Projectknowledge of cutting hair. He came here with this doctor and finally he got disassociatedSociety with the doctor and got a job working on the river and unloading boats. He finally saved-started saving money. [He was] very conservative, and he raised

his family. My mother and twoHistory sisters and two brothers, siblings, were born out in the-right near the Schmidt's Brewery, Palace Avenue. The building my grandfatherOral bought Historical was a house out there, I think, on Palace A venue. He was the first Black out there. But anyway, my mother was born in Saint Paul.

MyRondo father came out of Tennessee. Like I say, he died [at age 55]. He was a railroad man and he died when I was ten years old. So this idea, I always contendMinnesota when they say, "Well, he never had a father. He never had this." I always contend that that's hogwash. I mean, if a person has a family background and family rearing there's no reason why they can't be successful in life and get an education, and I contend that and I don't

41 sympathize too much because I feel that I came up [successfully]. And I have friends that came up without two parents and they made it. And it's just the idea of getting the education and the parenting, the rearing from your parents. And your parents are responsible, in my book, are responsible for some of these problems that some of these teenagers and

other children have. It probably might not be their fault. It might be their rearing. I blame it all on your rearing, regardless. 'Cause I look at my own self and my family and I say, "Well, heck, I came up through all these adverse situations as a Black person." So I do not sympathize too much with people that don't strive and try to makeProject it on their own. I sympathize with people that are handicapped and I try to helpSociety people. I've always been a person to try to help people, but it's pretty hard for me to think about my background and the adverse situation that I came from and then

to sympathize with someHistory of these people that get in trouble and have problems. KC: Mr. Mann, as aOral final question, Historical what are you most proud of as you look back over ninety years? RM: I am most proud of my family. I'm proud of the fact that my mother went through what she went through. She was married two times or three times Rondoif I'm not mistaken, after my dad died. He died in 1925, and she always saidMinnesota that the reason that she got married was to provide for her family. There was five of us in the family. I had four sisters and I was the only boy. And she always admitted, when people say, "Well, why did you get married so many times?" She got married to help her raise her family. So I

always appreciated and love my mother for that.

42 I also am proud of the fact that I have the family that I have. I have two boys and a daughter who are all successful and all have an education. They've all got college degrees and I appreciate the fact that I was able to help them. They helped themselves quite a bit. I'm not saying that I did it all, because they helped themselves, but I always provided a home for

them and food and clothing. And I'm just proud of living in Saint Paul,

the City of Saint Paul, and to be able to have accomplished what I have accomplished. Project Society

History

At Mr. Mann's 80th Birthday party. Mr. Mann, Margo Grace Oral Historical Mann Lainer. Front row: Stephen Turner Mann, stepson Jerry Thomas (deceased) and Richard John MannRondo. Minnesota

43 ,.....

Right now, I am appreciative, too. I believe in God. I belong to church. I

advocate that. I'm Episcopalian30 and I advocate that to my family.

However, my family kind of leaned away from Episcopal religion one

way or the other because of their married lives and their families and so forth. But I am proud to the fact, like I have mentioned, the fact that I have

accomplished what I have and raised a family and I'm proud and I love

my family and the fact that I've endured the hardships that a lot of Blacks

and most Blacks have had to go through in this century, especially in the Twin Cities, which is liberal in comparison with a lot of other cities I've been. I lived in Chicago. I lived in CaliforniaProject during my life, before I was married, and my belief is that the City of Saint Paul,Society the Twin Cities, is a good place to live in regardless of the problems we've had in the past and

I appreciate the fact that I was able to endure. [I was a volunteer Sextoh31

at St. Philips Church for 16History years-1983 to 1999. Currently I am a member

32 of the Endowment Board and for several years as Junior Warden. ] KC: Thank you, sir.Oral Historical

Rondo Minnesota

30 Saint Philips Episcopal Church was formed as a mission church in 1894, meeting in a home on Carroll Avenue. Later they rented a store on Rice Street, and in 1900 purchased their current building at Aurora and Mackubin. 31 A sexton performs janitorial services at the Episcopal Church 32 Junior Warden is responsible for the facility management in the Episcopal Church .

44 Project Society

History

Oral Historical

Rondo Minnesota

45