An Interview with Charles & Pauline Thomas January 23, 2008 Dorchester,

Photos from the Keepsake Album of Mr. Joseph Thomas

An Interview with Charles & Pauline Thomas January 23, 2008 Dorchester, Massachusetts

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INT: So, today is January 23, 2008, and I’m in Dorchester, Massachusetts, and I’m with -- and tell me your name again. PT: Pauline Thomas. INT: And could you spell Pauline? PT: P-A-U-L-I-N-E. INT: And your name? CT: My name is Charles Thomas. INT: And I’m here today with the Lower Roxbury Black History Project as you know. And I guess you’re members of . CT: Yes, we are. INT: And when I was speaking to Clara one day on the phone, she said -- oh, you should interview my parents. So, that’s why I’m here. So, I don’t know where you’re from or either one. So, Pauline, do you want to start, and maybe if it’s okay tell me what year you were born. PT: I was born in 1918, and I was born in Virginia in a little country town -- New Kent County. INT: New Kent County? PT: In Virginia. And I came to -- I don’t really remember this from my parents about 1922, I guess, and my mother and father came. And I had a brother that was born here in 1922. INT: Do you know why your parents came here? PT: For better living conditions and working. They lived in the country and on a farm. When he came, some friends of theirs had -- my mother had a sister who had come here, and her husband was working -- he was a longshoreman down on the

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Northern Pier. And he came there, and he got my father a job there. I always lived in Lower Roxbury until now. I lived on Kendall Street and Marble Street -- streets that have been (word fades). INT: Do you remember any of those addresses on Kendall Street? PT: Yes, I don’t remember Kendall Street. I think Marble Street was 9. INT: And just for the record -- your mother’s name and a little bit about -- PT: Oh, my mother’s name was Clara, and my maiden name was Walker. And I had a brother James, and he passed. He was young. And I went to the school in Lower Roxbury, the Hyde School, and I went to Practical Arts High School, and I often think of how everybody -- the busing and riding the bus, and I always think that I never walked -- never took a car -- walked from Lower Roxbury up to Greenville Street to the Hyde School. We never took the bus. INT: I’m trying to think if there’s anything else I want to know because I like to sort of get where your parents came from. Oh, and your father’s name? PT: It was James -- James Walker. INT: Do you have any idea of either of your parent’s birthdates or years? PT: I don’t remember my father’s birthday. My mother was born in 1899. INT: And I think that takes care of that. Charles. CT: I’m Charles Thomas. I’m a native of Boston -- born, bred as a kid, married here. My parents -- mother and father also born here. Grandparents were from New Jersey. So, I’ve been a native here all my life. And like I say, I married Pauline, and we have three children. They’re all scattered all around, but we’re in close contact with them almost on a daily, daily basis. And I’ve seen the city change so much, and lots of times we go down to areas in which we used to play and meet in our neighborhood years

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and years ago when we were real young and youthful. It’s completely gone now. There’s no buildings left. I shouldn’t say -- no. There are very few buildings that are left that brings back memories when we were young, and we were down in that particular area. As Pauline said, she went to the Hyde School. I also went to the Hyde School because at one time, I lived on Hammond Street. So, it was very easy for me to go from Hammond Street to the school because my father always scolded me because he said I always lived closer to the school than anybody else, and I was always late. But I used to go to the Hyde School, and then from the Hyde School, I went to the Lafayette. From the Lafayette, I went to the Asa Gray. From the Asa Gray, I went to the Sherwin, and from the Sherwin, I went to the Mechanic Arts, and that’s where I graduated. INT: So, if we can go back a bit, you said your grandparents came from New Jersey to Boston. Can you tell me anything about that? CT: My recollection of what I have been told that my grandparents just came here -- grandfather and grandmother. I believe my grandfather when he came here from Jersey, he wasn’t married at the time. But I do believe one of my aunts telling me that he married when he came here and that brought forth (inaudible word: 6:59) grandmother of mine. I remember both of them very, very well, though, very well. INT: Those were your grandparents. Can you tell me their names, or when they were born. CT: My grandfather’s name was Joseph Thomas. And my grandmother’s name was Melissa Thomas. And I have two aunts. Well, I had more than two aunts. I had quite a number of aunts and uncles, but unfortunately most of them died before I was born. So, I only remembered just my father and my two aunts and my grandparents. So, my other aunts and uncles like I said previous, they had all died before I was born. So, I didn’t

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know them. But I was very close with my father and with my two aunts. INT: So, your grandfather, and you said he was -- this takes me a little bit working on these family trees. So, you have a grandparent that comes from New Jersey. CT: New Jersey, right. INT: And then he marries someone here -- CT: Here in Boston, correct. INT: So, that would be your great grandmother -- CT: Well, not my great but my grandmother. INT: Your grandmother? CT: Grandmother -- right. INT: And so, do you know when your grandfather -- what year he was born? CT: No. That’s another mystery, although I do have a book that he kept a lot of notes in, but I doubt very much if he listed the year that he was born. But he did leave a lot of notes of things that he has done in his lifetime, and I still have that on record here. I would be more than happy to show it to you if you care to look at it. And then, of course, on my mother’s side, her mother was from England, and she came here, and she married a man up in the West End. And at that time he was a sexton at the Twelfth Baptist Church. His name was Joseph Blake. And my mother’s maiden name was Martha Blake. My grandmother on my mother’s side -- her maiden name was Sara Holland. And she married Joe Blake. And my mother, she had two relatives. She had a brother and a sister. Her brother’s name was Eddie, and her sister’s name was Mamie. Of course, they’ve all died at this particular time. CT: Well, we’ve been happily married for 68 years. And not to be repetitious, but we brought forth three children. They’re all doing very well. We have two grandchildren

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and two great grandchildren. So, everybody is doing very well, and we’re pleased at this particular time. INT: So, your father was born here -- yes? CT: Yes, father and mother both. INT: Father and mother both? CT: Right, born in Boston. INT: I don’t recall already if I asked you what year your father was born in. CT: If my father was --? INT: What year your father was born in? CT: I’d have to look on his death certificate to find out again. INT: But your father was born in Boston, and your mother was born in Boston. CT: Correct. INT: And your mother -- CT: Mother’s mother was born in England. INT: And married someone from the West End who was a sexton at Twelfth Baptist? CT: Correct, yes. INT: And your birthday is? When were you born? CT: I was born March 20, 1919. INT: And did you say you had siblings? I don’t remember. CT: If I had what? INT: Brothers and sisters. CT: I had no brothers and no sisters. I asked my mother one time why I didn’t have any brothers or sisters. She said to me, son, once your father and I looked at your, we

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said this is the end. No more. So, I don’t know if I should say I was fortunate or unfortunate, but I had no brothers, and I have no sisters. INT: And so you were born March 20, 1919. And do you remember your first address where you lived? CT: East Lenox Street -- East Lenox Street -- that would be between Washington and Albany Streets. Correct. INT: And you end up going -- tell me the first school you went to again. CT: Well, the first school I went to would be the Robert Gould Shaw House because they used to have the daycare in those days. That was my first -- not a public school now. And then my first school would be in Hyde School. Then I went from the Hyde School to the Lafayette. But the Lafayette was so far away. It was on Ruggles Street. So, my mother asked them if they could put me in a school that was closer to home. So, they did, and they went to the Asa Gray. And then from the Asa Gray School, I went to the Sherwin. And then from the Sherwin, I went to Mechanic Arts, and that’s where I graduated from high school. That’s right. The road was wooden -- absolutely correct. INT: Tell me -- I call it when the curtain opens when you first realize -- what are some of your first memories as a child? PT: When you mentioned Northeastern, I remember where the arena is now, we used to go roller skating there. It used to be a roller skating rink -- before Northeastern, it was the arena. It was great for us to be able to go over the Camden Street Bridge to the -- and then we went to ballgames in the park and to stand up on the -- CT: The stands. PT: The stands and look over to watch the trains go by -- to see the trains.

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INT: Which park are you speaking of? PT: Columbus Avenue. I think Northeastern has that now, too. INT: Where would that have been -- where on Columbus Avenue? What would be the cross street? PT: At the Carter Playground. And on the corner of Camden Street, they used to have a shop that had bicycles -- that you could rent them. CT: Not only that -- we used to roller skate down Camden Street there because the road was paved, so it was very smooth. So, we could take our roller skates. PT: They used to flood Carter Playground for us to ice skate in the winter. INT: So, to back to the 20s -- I know we’re talking about -- how many years -- but just to think about those early memories, either going to church, going to school, little stories. I like to be able to -- one of the things I do is I’m able to clip out pieces of interviews and make little shorts out of them and have little photo stories -- so, just be sort of thinking about -- like you talked about skating. So, tell me again what year you were born, Mrs. Thomas. PT: 1918. INT: So, that means you were five in 1924 about -- is that right? PT: That wasn’t the time I was skating. I didn’t go skating and things like that until I got to about 14 or 15. INT: So, can you remember anything of your younger life -- like 5, 6, 10? PT: Only Madison Park -- Madison Park, they used to have a playground there in the summer. Before they tore the park apart, they used to have a playground in the summer. INT: I spoke to someone by the name of Beryl Roach once a few years ago, and she

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was able to tell me about goings on in the park -- that the boys had relay races, and Vinny tells me -- Vinny Haynes told me that sometimes when it was really hot, people would be in the park -- late. CT: Sitting on the benches. INT: Playing victrolas -- playing the music. CT: But not only that, I can remember on Sunday evenings -- early -- 4:30, 5:00, maybe 6:00, they used to have band concerts in Madison Park there right at the flagpole there -- yes. INT: How old would you have been then? CT: Oh, 10 -- 8, 10 -- along through there somewhere. But she I was accompanied by my mother and father because in those days, you couldn’t be out after 5:00 o’clock. You had to be home. So, she and I -- if we were out at the park at 6:00 or 7:00 o’clock either Sunday, Saturday -- Sunday, whatever day, we’d have to be accompanied by our parents. And I heard you mention about ballplayers -- we had two excellent ball teams. One was the Philadelphia Athletes, I think, and the other one was the Rangers. And this way here, they would come along the stands with a hat, and people would take and donate a nickel, a dime, quarter, and so forth. We only had one baseball -- and if that baseball went over into the railroad tracks, somebody had to go to the railroad tracks and get the ball and bring it back so they could continue playing -- yes. But we made out -- yes. We made out. And it gave us some insight as to what some of the African- American ballplayers could do. At that time, we had no idea whatsoever that in my lifetime and in her lifetime that we’d ever see African-Americans in the major leagues sports like they are now. But it really is a Godsend -- yes, it really is a Godsend. PT: They used to have black players that used to come -- old black ballplayers.

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CT: But they were in their own particular surroundings -- yes. PT: I know but in some different places -- they have the (Jenkins) Band from the South. CT: Well, the (Jenkins) Band, they used to come during the summertime because they felt as though if they came here, we would be more sympathetic about giving them funds to keep the school going down in the Southern states down there. So, they used to come here during the summertime. And they used to perform on different streets -- they’d play two or three numbers, and the maestro with the minister, he would pass the hat, and they would collect money. INT: So, what street -- like you said they’d play a street -- like what street? CT: Oh, they were on Hammond Street -- Shawmut Avenue -- Tremont Street -- Camden -- Kendall -- oh, yes. PT: And sometimes the churches would have them sometimes. CT: Yes, sometimes the churches would have them and give a concert at the church, you know, because I think you’d have to pay them or was it maybe -- whatever you felt you could donate to them there. INT: So, when you think back on your childhood, when do you remember -- first day of kindergarten -- or what is one of your earliest memories of childhood? CT: Oh, my earliest -- yes. Well, I can remember -- like we said Hammond Street - - the street was paved with blocks. I can remember chopping the blocks -- bringing them into the house and burning them in the stove. INT: How old were you? CT: Oh, 7 -- maybe 8. And when they really started to tear up the streets, then nobody had to take and buy any fuel or any coal or wood from the coal and wood

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merchants for at least a year because a little small block, and they used to tar the blocks every year. So, you’d only need one little small block to put into your stove and that would last you just about all day long. So, my earliest recollection was remembering taking out some of the blocks because they were beginning to renovate the street, and I can remember taking the blocks out and bringing them home. And like my father said, your mother and I, we don’t bring up any coal or wood or take down ashes. That’s your job. You’re not making any money now, but this would be your token for your mother because she does the washing and cooking and cleaning for you. So, at least you can do is take down the ashes and bring up this and that, but again, getting back to my earliest recollection, I can remember that well. And of course, I can remember throwing snowballs at Pauline when she was going to school at the Hyde School. We’d stand outside and wait until the girls come, and then we’d make snowballs and throw it at them, you know. INT: How long have you two known each other? CT: All of our lives -- yes, just about all of our lives. Originally -- PT: We used to live across the street from the school. CT: Yes, on Hammond Street. I used to live right across the street from the Sherwin School. And I said previous, my father always scolded me because I was the closest to the school, and I was always late getting into the school. But yes, we’ve known each other for probably -- we’ve been married 68 years. So, we knew each other for 70 years, I guess -- 70, 75 years -- because we both attended the same Twelfth Baptist Church. We both attended the same church, and we’ve been going together before we were married, you know. So, it was no surprise to anybody when we announced our engagement. We knew it was coming. We didn’t know when. But we

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knew it was coming. And we’ve been faithful members at the Twelfth Baptist Church for, well, all of our lives. She was there before I was because I used to go to People’s Baptist Church on Camden Street. And then I decided I was going to try Twelfth Baptist. And of course, when I went to Twelfth Baptist, her eye and my eye made contact. INT: I just read a book -- and it’s all about questions to ask people when you’re doing an oral history, and one of them was when you’re interviewing a couple, when did you first meet eyes. CT: At the church -- (laughter). At the church, right. PT: That’s another thing that I remember because we didn’t have -- the only black people that we met other than the neighborhood was through churches -- through the black churches. That’s where we met other black -- young people -- because in the other areas, there was always -- like in Malden and in Everett, there was always a small area that had black people that would have a . And they would keep in touch with the city churches. And that’s how we met. But now, see, the kids have METCO. CT: Automobiles. PT: And another thing -- I only knew of two black teachers -- three black teachers in my -- INT: That was my next question to you. I interviewed someone by the name of Loretta Dixon, and she told me her father Edward Dixon was the first black high school teacher in Boston in 1936. PT: And that’s the year I graduated from high school. CT: Yes, I guess so. But when I was going to the Hyde School, I had a black female

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teacher, Miss. Taylor. I never will forget. And in those days -- INT: What grade was that? CT: Huh? INT: What grade was that? Do you remember? CT: Yes, first grade. In those days, the female teachers were not allowed to marry. So, she was a Miss Taylor. And she was a black teacher. She was teaching before I went to school, and she was teaching after I left Hyde School -- Hyde School -- not High -- but Hyde -- H-Y-D-E -- the Hyde School -- and went over the Asa Gray and the Lafayette and the Sherwin. But how long she was teaching after I left the Hyde, I don’t remember. But she was the first black female that I remember during my early school years that was teaching in the Boston Public Schools -- yes. And strangely enough, the Hyde School was a brick building. Miss Taylor, she had this place that they called a portable school. So, it was a wooden school that they had built in the schoolyard, and this is where her classroom was. But we had heat. We had electricity -- running water. I imagine we had -- well, I don’t know if we had a restroom in the school, or we had to go into the main building. But I do remember we had heat, and we had electricity. And it was nice and cozy. INT: When I think of a classroom now, that’s not the classroom that you would have been in. Maybe there were inkwells? PT: Yes. CT: Yes, right -- yes. And they had the open desks, you know. PT: And penmanship, you had a pen, and you had to have a pen wiper to wipe your pens in. CT: Well, the desks used to have the little inkwells.

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PT: That’s what I said. CT: You put it in -- yes. And this way here in order to get the ink to flow, you have to run the pen through your mouth or something to get it to start off with -- yes. And the teacher when she used to give us a pencil, she used to cut a slot and put your name on it. So, that means that if anybody found it, it had to go back to them. You couldn’t erase it. So, we had some memorable occasions -- yes. And not all of them were good. Some of them were bad. But as far as -- PT: It wasn’t so bad now. CT: Well, no, we didn’t have any racial tensions in those days because where I lived on Hammond Street, the people that owned the building and lived underneath of us were Jews, and they had a store on the ground floor. INT: And what was that store? CT: Well, it was Mr. and Mrs. Paul. INT: And what was the address on Hammond Street? You didn’t tell me. CT: Well, the store was 80 Hammond Street. But in order to get into our apartment, we had to go on to Sussex Street and that was the entrance to get up into their apartment and into our apartment, although I could still come on 80 Hammond Street -- go through the store through the back -- and then go up the backstairs upstairs to our apartment. And then there was -- in the same block, there was a white woman who had married an Afro-American. They didn’t seem to have any problems -- people throwing stones or rocks into their windows. I don’t remember whether she had children, or he had children prior to them getting married, if they got married. But I do remember that in the same block there -- there was this white lady that married an Afro- American -- yes. We were all on good friendly terms. Nobody seemed to bother

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anybody in those days, you know. But things have changed now. But those are the things that I remember as a youth coming along. And of course, when the wintertime came, we had to bundle up. You had you sled. And in the summertime, we had a bicycle and my cart and a pair of roller skates. She and I used to roller skate together hand-in-hand. Oh, yes. We got a lot of compliments. Now I can’t walk now. So, there’s no way I could take her roller skating now. But like I said, we had a very happy and memorable livelihood. INT: Just now we talked about sort of birth to 10 -- or your ancestors to 10, and now maybe we can go through junior high years. And that would probably be where you started with the skating. And so, would that have been the same time period -- junior high. And then tell me about high school because as I understand the high school - - I don’t think I’ve actually ever spoken to anyone about high school life. PT: Well, see, they were separated then. You either went to a girls’ school or a boys’ school. I don’t know when they started integrating them. When I went to school -- CT: It was all girls. PT: It was an all girls. Even when my children went to school -- no, the outlying schools like Brighton and -- CT: Allston/Brighton. PT: And Roslindale and those places -- but boys and girls went to the same high school. But in the city, I don’t know what year -- CT: They started to integrate? PT: Yes, because like the Burke here was all girls. And then there was girls’ high school.

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CT: Practical Arts. INT: Did either one of you -- I guess I really haven’t heard too many stories about girls having jobs. But I’ve heard lots of stories about young men having jobs coming up delivering papers and so forth. Did either one of you do any sort of -- you know --? CT: Oh, yes, I delivered papers, and I shined shoes -- yes. I’m not regretful because it gave me some insight what people below me have to do in order to make a living. But I did shine shoes, and I did deliver newspapers. INT: So, what age were you when you delivered papers, and do you remember the paper that you delivered? CT: Well, again our route was primarily right in the heart of the black community -- Hammond Street -- Warren Street -- Westminister -- Greenwood Street and so forth -- yes. INT: Which paper did you deliver? PT: When we were young, there were a lot of papers. There was The Post, The Globe, The Transcript. The -- CT: Traveler. PT: Traveler -- CT: We had quite a few papers in those days. PT: Quite a few papers. INT: And what about any of the -- I could see -- what Boston papers I’ve heard of -- PT: The black papers? CT: Oh, The Guardian and the Chronicle. But now, it’s The Banner now. Yes, right. INT: And what papers did you deliver, or did you do just one or --?

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CT: Now, we delivered the city papers. Yes. INT: So, how was that organized? I don’t know how that was organized. I mean would there be -- like now -- I see a truck will come up, and they’ll have all these Boston Globes and Heralds, and then like a dozen people will come and get so many papers and then at the end -- was that how it was organized? CT: Well, let me go back and give me a true picture of this. See, my stepfather had a store. He used to shine shoes, and he used to sell newspapers. INT: So, your stepfather had a store? CT: Yes, that was on -- INT: What was the store called? CT: Well, I don’t think it had a name, but it was on Hammond Street near the corner of Tremont. PT: Across the street from Slades. CT: Well, Slades was on Tremont, so the side building on Hammond Street -- yes. So, he had a store. So, that’s what would happen is that they would drop off a bundle of papers to him, and then he would have to take and put them together. And he sold newspapers in a store, and then he used to go with my son -- our son -- and he would take and deliver newspapers. Now, when my stepfather sold the store, he still kept the newspaper route, and my son and him, and our youngest daughter -- no, our oldest daughter -- used to deliver newspapers. But we wasn’t fearful in those days because everybody knew us -- everybody knew our children. Everybody knew my father. So, we didn’t have any real fears of them taking advantage of our children. They were never out late. And at nighttime, they never delivered newspapers anyways. So, we wasn’t fearful of them being assaulted or anybody bothering them. And then like I

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say when my stepfather sold the business, he still kept the paper route, and he and my son would have the paper delivered to the house in which we were living, and they would take and deliver the newspapers -- yes, right. Then after a while, it dwindled out. My son got bigger and started to go to high school and started to get interested in girls. So, then little by little the newspaper just dwindled off here. INT: So, for those who don’t know anything about shoe shining -- and there’s plenty that don’t -- so, what did that mean? Did you go around -- did you have a box of things? What would you do? CT: Oh, no. In his store, he had four chairs. You’d step up on the marble -- up onto the chairs. They had these brass figurines that you’d put your feet on, and we would take and wash the shoes, and we’d put a paste on it, and then we would buffer with a rag. INT: And how old were you when you did this? CT: I beg your pardon. INT: How old were you when you started? CT: I was married at the time. So, I had to be 20, 22, 23, 25 -- along through there somewhere. I have a box that I made that I used to shine shoes -- I used to take the little box through the neighborhood and get a nickel for shining shoes. I didn’t shine -- I didn’t shine many shoes. But it gave me a little change. I’d take my wife out and buy her an ice cream soda or so -- yes, right. INT: So, where would you go get ice cream soda? CT: The corner of Tremont and Hammond Street. There used to be an ice cream parlor there. And then there was another one on Camden and Washington Street. We used to go in and get 10 cent banana splits. So, it gave me a little change to take her out.

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And in those days, for a nickel, you could get a whole lot. INT: I was with someone yesterday, and she had a copy of a bill of sale from Sweets. And what did it say -- something like two cans of tomato soup were 18 cents. CT: Oh, yes, I can imagine. I can imagine. Yes, right, yes. Well, I was never much on shopping. I always left it to her, you know, because I was gainfully employed working, you know. PT: Because Sweets used to be on the corner of Hammond and Shawmut Avenue. CT: Oh, that was Walter Bolt. PT: No, they were on Windsor Street and Shawmut Avenue. CT: Yes, Windsor -- yes. PT: From the church. CT: Was it Barsky’s? I know where you mean -- yes. I remember. PT: They were all Jewish stores then. CT: Oh, yes, they were. INT: I was talking to someone -- she was like -- oh, I heard about someone -- a black woman [man] on Washington Street -- that had a store named Dolly. CT: What did he do? INT: I don’t know. PT: I don’t remember any -- I remember Dolly’s -- Dolly’s used to be on the corner of Windsor -- CT: Windsor -- right across from Twelfth Baptist -- yes. PT: But I don’t remember Washington. INT: You don’t remember Washington Street? PT: No.

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CT: Well, I can remember Washington Street, but thinking back, I don’t remember seeing any -- or knowing any black woman [man]that had a store on Washington Street. INT: Could it be one what they call now an urban legend? (Chuckles). CT: Yes, yes. INT: One of the things I wanted to ask you about -- did you go to the Public Library at all? CT: Oh yes. PT: Oh yes. CT: Ruggles and Tremont Street -- yes. INT: Do you remember your first trip to the library? CT: Oh, I don’t remember the first trip. But see, that was another way to meet Pauline -- go to the library -- because in those days, people would -- where are you going -- who are you going with -- when will you be back? Well, I’m going to the library. Yes, okay. INT: It still worked when I was a teenager, too. CT: Oh, yes, so we used to go -- in fact, I am dying to get to the big Public Library myself and just take out a book and show them my library card. My library card perhaps goes back to 1920, I guess. INT: Do you have it? CT: Oh, I have it, yes. INT: I have a scanner here. CT: I’d be more than happy to show it to you, right. INT: When did you start going to the library -- when you were a little kid or --? CT: Oh, yes. And see, another thing -- in grammar school -- I won’t say it was

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mandatory -- but I can remember the teacher wanted us to read a book every month. And this way here, at the end of the month or the beginning of the month, whatever it was, we’d have to write an essay on the book that we read. So, that would encourage you to go to the library and get a book and read it. So, you didn’t have any time to watch television or go to the movies and all because you were gainfully employed and studying -- or reading the book so that you could present a halfway decent essay at the end of the month or the first of the month whenever she called to have you -- let her know about the internal -- PT: And they used to have the Bookmobile. CT: And the Bookmobile also. But we never went to the Bookmobile. The children did. But we never went to the Bookmobile. See, that was after we were adults, but we encouraged our children to go to the Bookmobile. So, in other words, if you couldn’t go to the library, they’d bring the library into your neighborhood. PT: Because when we moved out there, there was no library. So, they used to go down to -- what was it -- West Brookline Street and Shawmut Avenue? CT: Yes, West Brookline -- PT: The Municipal Building there. CT: Yes, West Brookline and Shawmut Avenue. PT: And then they -- when we moved here, they had the Bookmobile -- used to come up here to Franklin Park and Franklin Field. INT: So, let’s see -- high school. Can you tell me something about high school? PT: I don’t remember too much. CT: Well, I can -- not to cut you off -- I can also tell you that she played in the band at Practical Arts. She was the only Afro-American that played in the band at Practical

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Arts. And I used to go to her house and see her, and instead of her talking to me, she’d be polishing her baritone. INT: Saxophone? CT: No, baritone. INT: What’s a baritone? CT: It’s a short version of a tuba, but it doesn’t have that big thing. It has a little small one, and it sits on the side here. I have a picture of that also if you’d be interested. INT: Oh, I’m so interested in that. So, how did you come to play the baritone? PT: Well, I used to play the piano. And when I went to high school, they asked if there was anybody who could read music. And I said I could. And so, they just gave you -- those who could read music. They just happened to give me the baritone. That’s how I happened to get the baritone. INT: Practical Arts High School. So, what kind of things did you study? It’s a different name for a school. So, Practical Arts -- PT: Was sewing, cooking and art. That was the main -- that’s what they leaned toward. INT: Sewing, cooking and art. PT: Yes. And they had a merchandising course, but there were very few black people in the merchandising because they didn’t hire black people in the stores as salesgirls or whatnot. INT: So, you’re graduating from high school at the end of the war about? PT: ’36. INT: ’36? PT: Yes, I graduated in ’36.

Charles and Pauline Thomas 23 Northeastern University Lower Roxbury Black History Project

CT: Were there many black girls in school when you were there? PT: I think there was seven or eight in the graduating class. INT: And where was the Practical Arts High School? PT: Right off of -- I can’t even think of the street. INT: Well, I can find out. PT: It’s off of Warren Street. CT: Granville Avenue? PT: Huh? CT: Granville Avenue? PT: No, it wasn’t Granville Avenue. Right down the street from the church. CT: My high school days, there was a thing that they used to call the School Boys Parade. Once a year, all high schools in the City of Boston would parade. And that was a glorious day for the students at high school as well as the girls. INT: Where would you parade -- where? CT: Mechanic Arts High. INT: But I mean where would the parade be? CT: Oh, in town -- Boston -- Boylston Street -- Park Street -- Tremont Street. INT: Was that the one that was on Flag Day? Was that that parade on June 14th? CT: I don’t think they had a -- INT: Because someone was telling me -- who is much younger than you -- he’s like 50 now -- he remembered when he was a kid, they would -- on Flag Day -- all the schools would have a drum and bugle corps or something. CT: Yes, that was it -- yes. That’s right. PT: I don’t remember. I just remember -- I didn’t remember when it was.

Charles and Pauline Thomas 24 Northeastern University Lower Roxbury Black History Project

CT: I remember the date now. But that’s what it was -- all the school boys had their parade. And Chris (Boni) like I said -- played the baritone. I played the saxophone. So, all of our children play instruments -- well, they all don’t play different instruments -- but they all play piano. INT: So, did you take lessons -- piano lessons? CT: She did. INT: Where did you take piano lessons -- did someone come to your house, or did you go? PT: I took from Mrs. -- CT: Taylor. PT: Taylor. She was the organist at people’s church. CT: She taught the children, but she didn’t teach you. You had Mr. Quattrin. INT: And where would -- PT: I used to go to the Cooper Community Center. I didn’t go to the Shaw House much because -- I went to the Shaw House for a while and played basketball -- but they were rough -- INT: The girls were so rough. CT: Oh, yes. There wasn’t much clearance. You should see her shoulders -- the scratches that she has -- hitting the brick wall -- yes. But we were fortunate because we did have a basketball field there. But like I said, it was regulation. But the building really wasn’t big enough to house it, so we’d run against that brick wall many times. But it was enjoyable. That kept us off the streets and kept us doing something positive.

END OF INTERVIEW +++

Charles and Pauline Thomas 25 Northeastern University Lower Roxbury Black History Project