UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT of ORAL EVIDENCE to Be Published As HC 781
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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 781 HOUSE OF COMMONS ORAL EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE SCOTTISH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE SCOTLAND OFFICE ANNUAL REPORT AND ACCOUNTS WEDNESDAY 20 NOVEMBER 2013 RT HON ALISTAIR CARMICHAEL MP, RT HON DAVID MUNDELL MP and ALUN EVANS Evidence heard in Public Questions 1 - 91 USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT 1. This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee, and copies have been made available by the Vote Office for the use of Members and others. 2. Any public use of, or reference to, the contents should make clear that neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings. 3. Members who receive this for the purpose of correcting questions addressed by them to witnesses are asked to send corrections to the Committee Assistant. 4. Prospective witnesses may receive this in preparation for any written or oral evidence they may in due course give to the Committee. 1 Oral Evidence Taken before the Scottish Affairs Committee on Wednesday 20 November 2013 Members present: Mr Ian Davidson (Chair) Mike Crockart Jim McGovern Graeme Morrice Pamela Nash Sir James Paice Mr Alan Reid Lindsay Roy ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael MP, Secretary of State for Scotland, Rt Hon David Mundell MP, Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, and Alun Evans, Director, Scotland Office, gave evidence. Q1 Chair: Gentlemen, could I welcome you to this meeting of the Scottish Affairs Committee? It does not seem all that long ago since we met you, but another visit is always welcome. Today we are looking at the annual report and accounts of the Scotland Office. Secretary of State, could we start off by asking you how the Scotland Office sees its role in the coming year? Mr Carmichael: The role of the Scotland Office is as described in the report, but, if I may use the term politically, I see a very key and central role in government for the Scotland Office between now and the independence referendum in September of next year. It is clear that the resources of the Scottish Government are devoted to the promotion of a yes vote in that referendum, and I should wish to use the resources of the Scotland Office, within—well within—the limits of propriety, to ensure that the benefits of the United Kingdom, and the benefits to Scotland of being part of the United Kingdom, are fully understood by the population of Scotland when they come to vote next September. Q2 Chair: How are you monitoring the implementation of the Scotland Act passed recently? What steps are you taking to make sure that people in Scotland are aware not only of the significance of that Act but of how it will impact upon day-to-day life in Scotland in the future? Mr Carmichael: If I can pick up the implication, or draw the inference from your question, there is more that we can be doing to highlight to the people of Scotland the significance of the Scotland Act, in particular the variable rate of Scottish income tax. There is a lot of contact on a regular basis between officials at the Scotland Office and the Treasury in Whitehall and the Scottish Government in Edinburgh, so that is an ongoing process. I think there is more we can be doing to remind people of exactly what is coming already, because within the context of the referendum debate it is in the interests of some to frame it as being a choice between independence on the one hand and the status quo on the other, when the status 2 quo is already undergoing a fairly radical programme of change, regardless of anything else that might come in the future. Q3 Lindsay Roy: It will be a challenge to achieve a variable rate of tax. Are you working very closely with Scottish Ministers? Mr Carmichael: It is going to be a challenge to achieve, because, quite apart from anything else, there is the complete novelty in the United Kingdom of a tax power of this sort. It is not going to be easy, but we are committed because we initiated this work. I was one of the authors of the process that led up to the creation of the Calman Commission, which eventually produced the proposal that led to the Scotland Act. We are committed to making this work, and we will ensure that every assistance necessary for the Scottish Government to implement it will be made available to them. Q4 Lindsay Roy: Are you achieving the same commitment from Scottish Ministers? Do you face any particular barriers? Mr Carmichael: There are always points of detail and process under discussion. Inevitably, the Scottish Government always pull in a certain direction, but these are essentially issues relating to implementation in the short term, and the medium to long term is one where there is very little disagreement between the two Governments. In the past, I am on record as saying that John Swinney as Finance Minister is somebody you can have a grown- up working relationship with, and that has been proven by the conduct of that operation so far. Q5 Lindsay Roy: So there is no under-emphasis on that compared with the full tax- raising powers there would be under separation. Mr Carmichael: That is an entirely separate debate. Whether the model of what they refer to as independence would offer full tax-raising powers is another matter altogether. It is not impossible that we will know more detail about that when the Scottish Government publish their White Paper next Tuesday. We all know the questions that that White Paper has to answer; it remains to be seen whether it will do so. Lindsay Roy: You will not be surprised that we are asking about that later. Mr Carmichael: I will do my best to hide any surprise that I feel. Q6 Chair: Before we move on, I have been told that you would like to have your accounting officer at the table with you, because this is about the accounts. Mr Carmichael: We understood that Mr Evans was to be at the table with us. Now we have started, perhaps we should proceed as previously indicated, but, if at any juncture it is necessary to call on his advice, he remains primed and ready to assist the Committee. Chair: Primed and ready to leap forward. We will see if we can find a difficult question about the accounts. I am told it is easier if he does sit at the table. There are only two seats there, but I am sure something can be done. Mr Carmichael: At a table of this length, even Mr Mundell and I can accommodate a third person. Chair: What can I say? I am simply the prisoner of my staff. Mr Carmichael: That is duly noted, Mr Chairman. Chair: Thank you. Some people will believe it. Can I welcome you to the top table, Mr Evans? I am afraid you do not have a name tag. Alun Evans: I will survive without one. Don’t worry. Q7 Chair: Your name has been noted in the file. We will not forget who you are, and how long your reputation lingers will depend upon the merit of your answers. Secretary of 3 State, what action will you be taking to make sure that the activities of the Scotland Office do not simply become overwhelmed by focusing on the referendum? Mr Carmichael: The day-to-day work of the Scotland Office in representing Scotland’s voice and ensuring that there is effective communication between Government in Whitehall and Government in Edinburgh continues regardless. That is the job we are charged to do. In relation to various different issues that have arisen in recent weeks since I took over, you will be aware of the threat of closure at the petrochemical plant at Grangemouth, and there has been public interest in the future of the BAE contracts on the Clyde. On both occasions the Scotland Office has acted as liaison within Government and as a Scottish voice within Government, as you would expect. Ultimately, it will be for others to judge, but I venture to suggest that in both instances we have been effective in carrying out the job we are charged with. David Mundell: Immediately before this meeting, I facilitated a meeting between East Ayrshire council, East Ayrshire MPs and the Energy Minister to discuss the collapse of the Scottish Resources Group and the impact that has had on East Ayrshire council in respect of opencast mining in that community—a very significant issue for that community in Scotland. We within the Scotland Office have played a very significant part in the ongoing discussions around the collapse of that company. Q8 Chair: You can understand our concern. Work in the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government seems to have almost entirely ceased, apart from a vigorous pursuit of the referendum issues. I do not think we would want the same to happen in the Scotland Office here. Mr Carmichael: Since this is the first occasion when I have had an opportunity to speak to the Committee on the generality of the work of the Scotland Office, as opposed to the specific issues we have dealt with previously, may I say that it is very much my intention that the focus of government in delivering what Scotland needs from Westminster should be the primary objective of this Department? To come back to Grangemouth for a second, I was completely immersed in the Government planning in relation to the handling of Grangemouth.