Wednesday Volume 567 11 September 2013 No. 48

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 11 September 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 959 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 960

as a member—put out their opinion, but nothing is House of Commons more certain than John Swinney’s opinion. The fact that he has said that there is a worry about this should Wednesday 11 September 2013 tell us everything we need to know about the pensions issue.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mr Jim Hood (Lanark and Hamilton East) (Lab): Does the Secretary of State plan to have a word with his PRAYERS right hon. Friend the Leader of the House on making Government time available for the House to discuss the reports and analysis? If he cannot get the time, may I [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] suggest that he allows the Scottish Grand Committee to have those debates? Speaker’s Statement Michael Moore: Without being impertinent to the 11.34 am hon. Gentleman, the old ones are the best. I know how keen he has been on the Scottish Grand Committee, Mr Speaker: The House will wish to know that Nigel although I think that he is a fairly lone voice in that Evans has formally resigned as Deputy Speaker, and regard. I agree that it is important that we have proper I have received his letter of resignation with sadness. I debates, in whatever forum, about all the issues. The wish to thank Nigel for his three years of service to the Scottish Affairs Committee is working through the House as Deputy Speaker, in which he has proved to be papers and taking evidence from me, my right hon. highly competent, fair and good humoured. He has Friend the Under-Secretary of State and others. The been a loyal and valued member of the team of Deputy House can decide when we get a chance to debate that, Speakers who assist me in chairing our proceedings. I which I hope we will. am warmly grateful to him. I will make an announcement about arrangements for the election by the House of a Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Whitehall’s “Project new First Deputy Chairman of Ways of Means when Fear” papers are looking at welfare, so will the Secretary the House returns in October. of State confirm whether those working on the paper have listened to any advice from the United Nations envoy, Raquel Rolnik? She says that the bedroom tax is Oral Answers to Questions “shocking” and should be scrapped. Does the Secretary of State believe that the bedroom tax is a benefit of the Union?

SCOTLAND Michael Moore: I have not read the details of the report, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that, through welfare reform, we are focused on tackling The Secretary of State was asked— an escalating welfare bill in very tight financial Scotland Analysis Programme circumstances. What we are trying to do is tackle the mismatch for different families in different accommodation. 1. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): When the We need to look carefully at the implementation, which Government plan to publish the next paper of their is what my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I Scotland analysis programme. [900183] are doing. On welfare, the hon. Gentleman’s party commissioned a report on that earlier this year in The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): relation to an independent Scotland. It complained that The Government are committed to ensuring a well-informed it does not have some founding principles for an independent debate ahead of the Scottish referendum and have Scotland and so could not really say very much about it. already published five analytical documents covering a I wonder whether he can update us on any progress. range of economic and other issues. Future papers from the Scotland analysis programme will be published over Angus Robertson: The views of the UN envoy have the course of 2013 and 2014. been very well reported. She visited both Glasgow and Edinburgh and said that the bedroom tax affects Graeme Morrice: I thank the Secretary of State “the most vulnerable, the most fragile, the people who are on the for that answer. With the Scottish Finance Minister, fringes of coping with everyday life”. John Swinney, admitting in his leaked memo that the The Secretary of State did not answer my question, so I affordability of state pensions would need to be examined will ask it a second time: does he believe that the in the light of separation, does the Secretary of State bedroom tax is a benefit of the Union—yes or no? agree that a future paper should focus on pensions in an independent Scotland? Michael Moore: We will look carefully at the report, but as I said earlier, we are making some very difficult Michael Moore: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman decisions in the context of an escalating welfare bill at a that pensions are an issue that people across the country time of real financial stringency. However, we have been are very engaged in and concerned about, and that looking carefully across Scotland at how this is being includes what an independent Scotland might mean for implemented. My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary them. They have heard experts, such as the Institute of and I have met or talked with all the councils in Scotland Chartered Accountants of Scotland—I declare an interest and the main housing associations. We have put additional 961 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 962 resources into tackling the spare room subsidy issue Michael Moore: As one of my hon. Friend’s neighbouring and will go across the country again to listen to people, MPs, I recognise the importance of Hexham and north as we will do for the rest of the year. Northumberland. As he knows, in a farming context and in so many other ways, any kind of legal border Rural Economy between Scotland and England would be an absolute disaster—not just for our constituents, but for all the 2. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): What recent United Kingdom. assessment he has made of the performance of the rural economy in Scotland. [900184] Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Is the Secretary of State aware of the recent report on the effect of the Irish The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Government’s reduction of VAT on tourism-related Scotland’s rural economy remains a key focus for the businesses to 9%, creating around 10,000 jobs and a Government. In addition to our support for the economy ¤40 million boost to the Exchequer? As 24 other EU as a whole, we have, among other things, abolished the countries already charge less VAT on hotel accommodation fuel duty escalator, provided funds for rural broadband than the UK, will he press the Chancellor to take and set up the coastal communities fund. similar action and give a real boost to the rural economy? Mr Reid: I thank the Secretary of State for that Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman always makes answer. Many of my constituents are expressing concern serious points on behalf of his constituents. I appreciate that a privatised Royal Mail will try to wriggle out of its that what he has asked about is a consistent theme of universal service obligation to deliver mail to every the tourism sector, and the Chancellor will no doubt house and collect from every postbox in the country regard it as an early bid for next year’s Budget measures. every day at a fair, affordable price. Will the Secretary of However, the hon. Gentleman would be more convincing State assure my constituents that the Government will if he brought along a costed example of how an never abandon the universal service obligation or allow independent Scotland would do such a thing. a privatised Royal Mail to water it down in any way?

Michael Moore: The legislation is clear. We have John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) legislated for a six-day universal service obligation and (LD): My right hon. Friend will be aware that a major only an affirmative resolution of the House could change contributor to the rural economy is the ability to send that. I highlight to my hon. Friend the fact that the goods around the country. In the north highlands, Government have ended the rural post office closure sending packages by courier services comes at extreme programme. We have introduced a groceries code cost; the companies charge more than for the rest of the adjudicator and cut income tax bills for low and middle- mainland. My hon. Friend the Member for West income families throughout rural Scotland and the rest Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) will of the country. No Government have ever done more present his excellent private Member’s Bill on Friday. for the rural economy in Scotland. We are committed to What more can the Secretary of State do to ensure that a stronger economy and fairer society in all parts of courier charges for remote areas are in line with those the UK. for the rest of the mainland?

Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Michael Moore: My hon. Friend and my hon. Friend The Minister of State is well aware that rural east the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine Ayrshire has been devastated, with hundreds of job (Sir Robert Smith) have been campaigning sensibly on losses and up to £160 million of restoration work the issue and raising important points. We certainly required in respect of the open-cast mines. Only this want to engage with my hon. Friend the Member for week, a Scottish Government Minister said that he was West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine on his private not prepared to prioritise funding for the issue. Does Member’s Bill, which addresses a serious issue. We the Secretary of State agree that funding will be required support the principles that underpin the Bill and want for the work and that the Scottish Government have to to see how we can use existing arrangements, through put their money where their mouth is? Furthermore, do trading standards and other facilities, to make sure that we not need some form of enterprise area for east nobody in remote or rural areas suffers from those Ayrshire, to compensate for this national devastation? excess delivery charges.

Michael Moore: I sympathise with the hon. Lady and Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): her constituents about the devastating blow for her and The average wage in my local authority area is 24% beneath other hon. Members, including the Under-Secretary of the national average. Figures out this week show that State for Scotland, my right hon. Friend the Member for 23.8% of households there are workless, almost 3% above Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), the Scottish average. Does the Secretary of State believe some of whose constituents are affected. He will meet that the Government, perhaps in conjunction with the representatives of East Ayrshire council later this week. Scottish Government, should be doing much more for We have to make sure that, when levers are available to rural economies? the Scottish Government, they use them to help the hon. Lady’s constituents and others. Michael Moore: I hope the hon. Gentleman recognises that these are structural problems that have persisted Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): What would be the for a very long time, including when his party’s Government impact on the rural economy of my neighbours in were in power. I share his desire to ensure that low-wage southern Scotland if Scotland went independent and economies, particularly in rural areas, get the support we had a border with Scotland? they need. The very heart of our economic policy is to 963 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 964 rebalance the country as a whole and move from the event of another financial crisis London would provide rescue to recovery phase. As we do that, the measures the lender-of-last-resort functions, whereas if Scotland we are taking to support the economy as a whole by were in the euro it would be Brussels, and if Scotland keeping interest rates and corporation tax down and had its own currency it would probably be the International investing in infrastructure will help rural and urban Monetary Fund in Washington. Is it not true that in the Scotland alike. event of separation all roads lead to Scotland having less control over its own financial affairs? Independence (Currency) Michael Moore: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. 3. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): What The best arrangement for Scotland is to stay part of the discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues United Kingdom, where we get all the benefits of the and Ministers of the Scottish Government on the continued currency but also the hugely integrated single market, use of sterling in a separate Scotland. [900185] which is enormously to our benefit, and a platform in the world that is great for all our businesses and those The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): they employ. Earlier this year, as part of the Scotland analysis programme, we published a paper on currency issues Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Scottish that makes the strong case for Scotland staying in the Secretary prayed in aid one of the Treasury’s analysis United Kingdom. There have been no discussions with documents on Scotland in relation to currency. However, the Scottish Government about the use of sterling by an given that his own Chancellor is unable to get his independent Scotland. economic growth forecasts correct six months to a year out, how can he possibly expect us to believe an analysis Anas Sarwar: Does the Secretary of State recognise that is supposed to forecast the Scottish growth rate for the democratic deficit that is on offer whereby under the next 30 years? It is not serious, is it? It is just more nationalist plans Scotland would keep the pound but “Project Fear” scaremongering designed to talk Scotland the rest of the UK would still set our interest rates, our down. borrowing limits and our spending limits, while at the same time we would lose our influence and our Michael Moore: I have to admire the front that the representation? Does he agree that that is not more or hon. Gentleman puts up. He simply does not answer less independence, but worse independence? any of the big issues on this. To take an example of forecasting, in our documents we take very sensible, Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman puts the points reasonable proposals and look at how they would apply very neatly. People do not need to rely on his words or over many years to come—unlike when the Scottish mine; they can listen to experts such as the Cuthberts, National party forecasts oil revenues, when it takes all who said this week that they would like an independent the best-case scenarios and then makes up numbers Scotland to have its own currency and that to stay part indicating that about £1.5 trillion of resources are available of a currency union is no independence. Similarly, to Scotland. It is more like a tenth of that, but we never Brian Quinn, the highly respected former deputy governor hear that from him. of the Bank of England, observed in his recent report that the idea of a currency union is to replicate all the problems of the eurozone. The nationalists fail to answer Zero-hours Contracts all the points from both sides of the argument. 4. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Does my Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): What estimate he has made right hon. Friend share my concern that should a separate of the number of people employed on zero-hours Scotland become a member state of the EU, a condition contracts in Scotland. [900186] of membership will be an obligation to join the euro, with the further risk that that would expose Scotland to 5. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): What discussions being part of a future bail-out of eurozone members? he has had with Ministers of the Scottish Government [Interruption.] on the use of zero-hours contracts in Scotland. [900187] Michael Moore: Notwithstanding the heckling from the nationalist Benches, which hides the fact that they The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland do not have answers to these very important questions, (David Mundell): There is no single legal definition of the point is that they used to be in favour of the euro zero-hours contracts and it is not possible to get reliable but now they have back-tracked; they used to be in estimates. The issue was discussed at the Scottish favour of a separate currency but now they have back- employability forum last week by my right hon. Friend tracked; and they are currently saying that a currency the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Scottish Cabinet union would be the best starting point. I think Scotland Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable deserves to know what the end point would be. Growth and a range of Scottish stakeholders.

Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Gregg McClymont: Many employers in Scotland insist On sterling, Alex Salmond says he is in and the chair of that employees on zero-hours contracts be available for the yes campaign says he is out; it is a bit like the work even if work is not guaranteed. The Labour party currency hokey cokey. The serious point is that this has pledged to outlaw this practice and the Scottish morning a report says that if the UK had a formal Affairs Committee, under the chairmanship of my currency union with an independent Scotland, in the hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West 965 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 966

(Mr Davidson), has initiated an inquiry. When will this The hon. Lady has a blind spot when it comes to Minister and this Government put themselves on the understanding what her own Government did. She seems side of working people? to suggest that zero-hours contracts suddenly materialised recently, but they were in existence under the Labour David Mundell: It is important that our work force Government, who took no steps to review or do anything remain flexible, but it is also important that they are about them. I explained in my previous answer that BIS treated fairly. That is why officials from the Department officials are reviewing the contracts, because while we for Business, Innovation and Skills have undertaken want the employment market to be flexible we also work over the summer to better understand how the want it to be fair. contract works in practice, with a view to taking action if widespread abuse is found. Margaret Curran: Perhaps if the Minister looked at Labour’s policies he would get some ideas. The truth is Jim McGovern: In June, the Scottish Trades Union that while the Government have sold off workers’ rights Congress and the Scottish Government published, following and made it easier to fire rather than hire, they have no an analysis, a report saying that more than 250,000 people plan to address the circumstances of people such as in Scotland are underemployed. Many of them are on Kyle. Will the Minister follow Labour’s lead and outlaw zero-hours contracts and the overwhelming majority of the use of exploitative zero-hours contracts? Will he them do not want to be. What are the Government also confirm that the Secretary of State for Scotland is doing to address this scandal? As an afterthought, on a zero-hours contract so that he can do the Tories’ perhaps the Minister could tell us how many people in dirty work in Scotland? his Department are on zero-hours contracts. David Mundell: There is one person in this Chamber David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman will know that who is on a zero-hours contract: the right hon. Member the Scotland Office does not directly employ any members for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). I will of the Department, as I have already confirmed in take no lessons from the hon. Lady, because Labour did response to a parliamentary question about zero-hours nothing about zero-hours contracts. I have set out clearly contracts. As I have just indicated to the hon. Member that BIS officials are reviewing the matter, because our for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg policy is to have a flexible work force and fair employment McClymont), we take this issue seriously. That is why policies. BIS officials have been reviewing the operation of the Independence (Pensions) contracts, and I very much welcome the Scottish Affairs Committee inquiry, which will perhaps provide greater illumination on the specific situation in Scotland. 6. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the potential effect on pensions of Scottish independence. [900188] Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Zero-hours contracts are undoubtedly misused and abused by many The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland employers but, equally, I have spoken to many employees (David Mundell): The “Scotland analysis: Financial services for whom the contracts fit their lifestyle well. Does my and banking” paper considered private sector pensions. right hon. Friend agree, therefore, that reform is necessary, We will be examining state and public pensions in later not abolition, and that nothing shows this better than papers in the series. the number of Labour councils using these contracts? Ian Murray: The Institute of Chartered Accountants David Mundell: I do not know whether my hon. of Scotland highlighted that, on independence, cross-border Friend is aware of the statement by Labour’s shadow defined benefit pension schemes would have to be fully Business Secretary, the hon. Member for Streatham funded, which would leave a deficit of some £230 billion. (Mr Umunna), who said: That was dismissed by the First Minister, who said that “We’re not actually advocating an entire ban…sometimes people he would merely call for a derogation from the EU. quite like to use them.” Given that the Czech Republic has not only been refused I think that that is something with which we can all that, but has been fined, what does the Minister think agree. will happen to Scottish pension arrangements now and in the future? Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): If I may, I would like to express my condolences and pay tribute to David Mundell: Spending on state pensions and public those who lost their lives in the terrible Super Puma sector pensions is driven by demographics and is set to crash that happened while the House was in recess. rise. The UK Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions absorb the risk of growth in demand and Until recently, Kyle McLean from Airdrie worked in there would be more volatility in spending in an independent a sports store. Like thousands of people across Scotland, Scotland. Those are not my words, but the words of his zero-hours contract meant that he could not take on John Swinney. It is a pity that he said them in private, other work and some weeks he earned less than £20. not in public. What does the Minister plan to do about the exploitative use of zero-hours contracts? 10.[900192]Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Does the Minister agree that the ability of the Scottish David Mundell: The hon. Lady is right to highlight economy to support the pensions that the people of the Super Puma crash and pay tribute to those who Scotland depend on will be greater and better if were involved in it. Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom? 967 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 968

David Mundell: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, way in which the unions are helping to ensure that not least because the Scottish Government and the health and safety measures are enhanced in the North Scottish National party have set out no coherent plans sea? for a sustainable pensions system in an independent Scotland. Michael Moore: Trade unions, employers and everybody else who is involved in the North sea have worked Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): The closely over many decades. Recently, as we commemorated Minister must think that people in Scotland are buttoned the tragedy of Piper Alpha 25 years on, we were reminded up the back. He knows as well as I do that in terms of of the importance of having the right health and safety both revenue and GDP,Scotland spends a lower percentage regime. The trade unions, along with everybody else, of its money on pensions than other parts of the UK. have an important part to play in ensuring that we Does he accept that the lower life expectancy in Scotland always have the right regime. and other demographic trends make it important that decisions on pensions are made in Scotland by Scotland Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) for Scotland? (LD): The tragedy with the Super Puma helicopter was a reminder that, for all the heavy engineering and David Mundell: I know that the people of Scotland high-tech industry in the North sea, it is, at heart, a are not buttoned up the back. They understand that the people business. The families and friends of the victims Scottish Government and the SNP say one thing in and of those who travel offshore every week need to be private and another thing in public. In private, John reassured that all is being done to ensure their safety. To Swinney has made it absolutely clear that the affordability that end, will my right hon. Friend meet the air accidents of pensions would be a serious issue in an independent investigation branch to see what can be done to ensure Scotland. That is a fact. [Interruption.] that the lessons are learned from such tragedies quickly, so that people can be reassured that all is being done to Mr Speaker: Order. Far too many noisy private ensure the safety of the operation? conversations are taking place in the Chamber. I am sure that they will now end so that we can hear Mary Macleod. Michael Moore: Like many hon. Members on both sides of the House, my hon. Friend has for many years campaigned on North sea safety issues. Like our Oil and Gas Industry predecessors, this Government are committed to the highest possible standards. Of course, we want to see 7. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): what lessons are learned from the tragedy, and ensure What steps the Government are taking to protect workers that they are shared with the whole industry, across the in the oil and gas industry in Scotland. [900189] whole North sea and beyond.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): As the shadow Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland PRIME MINISTER acknowledged a few moments ago, the whole House will want to pay tribute to those who lost their lives in The Prime Minister was asked— the tragic helicopter incident in the North sea and to the Engagements vital work of the rescue services. That is a reminder of the risks that are faced by those who work in the oil and gas industry, and, indeed, of their bravery.The Government Q1. [900243] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North remain committed to working with the industry to Poole) (LD): If he will list his official engagements for ensure the highest levels of health and safety for all its Wednesday 11 September. workers. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Today marks Mary Macleod: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the 12th anniversary of the tragic terrorist attack on work force engagement is crucial in restoring the confidence New York’s twin towers. I am sure the whole House will of offshore workers in light of the recent helicopter wish to join me in sending our condolences to all those crash off the coast of Shetland, which resulted in the who were affected by that abhorrent attack, including deaths of four offshore workers? the families of the 67 British citizens who lost their lives. These terrorists seek to divide us, but they do not Michael Moore: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The understand that their actions only make us more determined industry has been quick to engage with all the stakeholders and more united in our resolve to defeat them. and, most importantly, with the work force. The This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Government will engage with all partners to ensure that and others and, in addition to my duties in the House, the lessons of this tragic accident are learned properly. I will have further such meetings later today.

12. [900194]Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton Annette Brooke: I am sure all Members in the House West) (Lab/Co-op): I hope that the Secretary of State will wish to associate themselves with the Prime Minister’s is aware of the agreement that has been reached comments on this anniversary. between the offshore unions and Oil and Gas UK to We are haunted by images from Syria—millions of ensure that offshore work force representatives have people needing aid; children dying. I thank the Prime more access to installations. Will he join me in Minister for his leadership on humanitarian access welcoming that example of the progressive and positive at the G20. Will he now prepare a concrete plan? What 969 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 970 steps will he take to gain international support prior today, unemployment is rising in half of the country: in to the United Nations General Assembly later this the east of England, the north-east, the north-west, month? Yorkshire and Humber, the west midlands and Scotland. It was the Chancellor who choked off the recovery and The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely he now wants somehow to claim credit for it. People’s right to raise that issue. A Syrian becomes a refugee living standards continue to fall. Will the Prime Minister every 15 seconds; inside Syria, 6.8 million people are in confirm that wages are now around £1,500 lower than need of humanitarian assistance; and the UN appeal is when he came to power? only 44% subscribed—there is a serious shortage of money. We have a plan between now and the UN The Prime Minister: Let me just remind the right hon. General Assembly to encourage other countries to come Gentleman what the Chancellor said, which I think is forward with money, as we have done, and to back up perfectly legitimate. He pointed out that the Opposition Valerie Amos in her campaign to ensure proper access, told us that there would be no growth without plan B. which means including priority humanitarian routes Well, we have growth. They told us that unemployment into the country, cutting bureaucracy, and having would go up, not down. They told us that growth of humanitarian pauses in the conflict so the aid can get private sector jobs would never make up for the loss of through. She will have our backing in getting others to public sector jobs. They have been wrong on every support that, including—potentially—in a UN Security single one of those issues. Of course we need to do more Council resolution. to help with living standards, but the only way to help with living standards sustainably is to deliver growth in Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the the economy, and we are; to keep interest rates and Prime Minister in remembering the terrible events of mortgage rates low, and we are; and to cut people’s 11 September 2001, and especially all the British citizens taxes by raising the personal allowance. All the things who died on that day. The mindless cruelty of that this Government have done; things his Government attack must never be forgotten. Today, our thoughts are would never do. with the families and friends of those who died. Edward Miliband: Once again we see from the Prime Today’s fall in unemployment is welcome—[HON. Minister, as we did from the Chancellor, total complacency. MEMBERS: “Hooray!”]—but does the Prime Minister We are in the midst of the slowest recovery in 100 years. recognise the concern that unemployment is still rising Let us talk about the Prime Minister’s record. Can he among young people and is close to 1 million, and that tell us in how many of the 39 months that he has been the number of people who are working part time but Prime Minister have prices been rising faster than wages who cannot find a full-time job is at record levels? and living standards falling?

The Prime Minister: First, I thank the right hon. The Prime Minister: I said we face a challenge to help Gentleman for what he said about this anniversary of people with living standards, but because this Government those dreadful events in New York. I also thank him for have taken 2 million people out of tax and have cut welcoming the fall in unemployment. Let me say clearly income tax for 25 million working people, household that of course it is welcome when unemployment falls, disposable income went up last year—that is what is but we still have a long way to go. As the Chancellor happening. As I said right at the beginning, we have to said, we are turning a corner, but we need to build this build on this; we have got to keep going with dealing recovery. We must go on backing businesses and dealing with the deficit and helping business to employ people. with our debts—there must be absolutely no complacency as we do everything we can to ensure the recovery The right hon. Gentleman talks about policy. Let me delivers for hard-working people. just remind him what the former Chancellor said: “I’m waiting to hear what we’ve got to say on the economy”. Let me share the unemployment figures with the right hon. Gentleman and for the House’s benefit. It is That is the verdict of the former Chancellor. I have to good that employment is up another 80,000 this quarter; say that we are all waiting to hear a single, constructive that unemployment is down 24,000; and that the claimant suggestion from the Labour party. count is down 32,000 just this month. Unemployment is now lower than it was at the general election, and the Edward Miliband: The whole House and the country number of new net private sector jobs, which we have will have heard the Prime Minister unable to answer the said was 1.3 million, is now 1.4 million, which is very question about what is happening to living standards. welcome. Let me give him the answer: for 38 out of the 39 months he has been Prime Minister, living standards for working The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise people have gone down, not up. Will he confirm that the youth unemployment; we do need to do more to get only month when wages rose faster than prices was young people back to work. The youth claimant count when he handed out the millionaires’ tax cut and City is down by 10,900 this month, so there is some good bonuses went up— news, but we need to build on our work on apprenticeships and work experience, ensure that the youth contract The Prime Minister rose— delivers and that children are learning the key skills at school, and help to get those young people into work. Edward Miliband: Calm down; hang on a second. And when City bonuses went up 82%? Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister mentioned the Chancellor’s speech on Monday. The Chancellor went The Prime Minister: His speeches are so poor, as we out and said that he had saved the economy—total saw yesterday, that it is difficult to know when he is complacency and total hubris at a time when, even finished. [Interruption.] 971 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 972

Mr Speaker: Order. Calm down. It will just take longer Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): My right hon. otherwise. It is very simple. Friend and the Government have been working hard to attract inward investment into northern Lincolnshire and the Humber region, with considerable success, but The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman went these efforts could be undermined by further delays to to Bournemouth and completely bottled it—that is the determine the application by Able UK. May I urge the truth. The fact is that in this economy business confidence Prime Minister to respond to requests from the leader is up, consumer confidence is up and exports are up. of North Lincolnshire council and the Humber local The point I would make about bonuses is that when he enterprise partnership to intervene to ensure an early was sitting in the Treasury they were four times higher. determination of the application, well before the December Under this Government, the top rate of tax will be deadline? higher than in any year when he or the shadow Chancellor sat and advised the last, disastrous Labour Government. The Prime Minister: I have spoken to my hon. Friend That is the truth of it. This Government are making and his Humberside colleagues on a number of occasions good the mess that he made in government. about this very important investment. We all want to see the Humber estuary become a real magnet for Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister cannot answer investment, particularly green energy investment, so I the question on living standards, because he knows that am very happy to look at the issue that he has raised the truth is that people are worse off under this Government. with me—he has raised it with me before—and particularly Here is the reality: the Government want to give maximum at the planning permission, with, of course, the responsible support to millionaires who are getting bonuses, so they council. give them a tax cut, but it is a different story for those who go to food banks. We know what the Government Q2. [900244] Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): think about those who go to food banks, because the The parents of the 1 million young unemployed people Secretary of State for Education, the right hon. Member will think the Prime Minister is totally out of touch. for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), said that the people This year, the number of young people with jobs has who go to food banks only have themselves to blame. dropped by 77,000, and the Government’s Youth [Interruption.] A Government Member groans—that Contract has reached fewer than one tenth of the just shows how out of touch this Conservative party young people it was supposed to help. Does the Prime are. We would all like to hear: does the Prime Minister Minister not understand that not everybody lands their agree with his Education Secretary? first job with help from a royal equerry? The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady should welcome The Prime Minister: Food bank use went up 10 times the fact that the number of young people who are under Labour, so we do not have to take any lectures claiming out-of-work benefits has fallen by 10,900 this from the Opposition. While we are on the issue of month. That is what is happening—100,000 young people complacency, let me tell the right hon. Gentleman: real accessing work experience, many of them getting into complacency is going back to tax and spend and borrowing work. It is 20 times more cost-effective than the future through the roof. Real complacency is promising no jobs fund, which she supported. That is what is happening more boom and bust. Real complacency is thinking you under our economy, but, as I said, there is absolutely no can win an election, when we have learned this week complacency: more needs to be done to get young that Labour has no economic policy, no foreign policy people into work. and no leadership, either. He promised us a blank sheet of paper; three years in, I think we can agree he has Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): Last week, delivered. despite having enough evidence to prosecute, the Crown Prosecution Service chose not to proceed and prosecute Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister neither defended doctors in Britain offering to abort a baby because it the Education Secretary’s comments nor distanced himself was a female. Does the Prime Minister agree that this is from them. Let me just tell him: the Education Secretary very uncomfortable, that the Abortion Act 1967 is now is an absolute disgrace. Let us see any of those on the almost obsolete and puts our abortion policy on a par Conservative Benches try to live on £150 a week; then with those of India and China, and that a female foetus we would see what happens. We have 1 million young in the womb today is more vulnerable than she was last people out of work, unemployment up in half the week? country and millions of people worse off while millionaires The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely get a tax cut. For the few, not the many—he is the right to raise this. Let us be clear that abortions on the two-nation Prime Minister. basis of a child’s sex are wrong and illegal in our country. The Daily Telegraph is to be commended for The Prime Minister: It is this Education Secretary the campaign and the work it has done to highlight this who is delivering the results we need in our education important case, but in our country we have independent system—free schools, academies and rigour in our prosecuting authorities. It is very important that they schools—and the right hon. Gentleman should be praising look at the evidence and make a decision on the basis of him. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman what is a the likelihood of getting a conviction and the public disgrace, and that is going down to Bournemouth and interest in taking a case to court. That is how things caving in to the trade unions. We were promised this have to work in our country, but I share her concern great big, tough fight and great big, tough speech. He about what we have read and what has happened, and it told us it was going to be “Raging Bull”; he gave us is absolutely right that professional action should be “Chicken Run”. considered as well. 973 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 974

Q3. [900245] Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): On created in the private sector as have been lost in the Sunday, I joined Army veterans on the Anglesey leg of public sector. Does the Prime Minister believe that that the Walk on Wales, an 870-mile tour of Wales organised is a “complete fantasy”, as has been suggested by the by the charity, Walk on Wales, to raise awareness of shadow Chancellor? their comrades suffering from mental illness. Great progress has been made over the past 10 years, but will The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important the Prime Minister assure the House that he is redoubling point. We have seen the growth of private sector jobs far his efforts to ensure that the NHS has access to Army outstripping the decline in public sector jobs, by more records so that it can give the best possible service and than three times in some cases. The Opposition said treatment to our brave comrades? Will he also join me that it was a fantasy to suggest that that could happen. in congratulating and wishing every success to Walk They also said that there could be no growth without a on Wales? plan B, and they predicted rises in unemployment. They have been wrong on every major economic judgment. The Prime Minister: I certainly congratulate Walk on Wales on its work, and I commend the hon. Gentleman Q7. [900249] Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): for his efforts in his constituency, which is a beautiful I also asked my constituents what I should ask the one to walk around. It is important that we put money Prime Minister today. Far away from the knockabout into veterans charities—as we are doing, using the of this session, many people are concerned about wages LIBOR funds—to support many causes including mental and prices. Is it not the case that, under this Prime health causes, but, as he says, it is also important to Minister, when prices outstrip wages, working people ensure that the national health service responds properly are poorer than they were when this Government came to these demands. I will look into his point about Army into office? records and perhaps write to him about that specific issue. The Prime Minister: When prices outstrip wages, it is really important to cut people’s taxes, and that is what Q4. [900246] Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): After we have done by delivering a tax cut to 25 million years of decline, manufacturing is now leading this working people, lifting the personal allowance and giving country out of the financial mess left by the previous people a £700 tax cut. We have been able to do that only Government. May I compliment my right hon. Friend because we have taken tough decisions on spending, on his decision not to implement plan B, as suggested tough decisions on welfare and tough decisions on the by the Opposition, and ask him to continue to support deficit—tough decisions that the Leader of the Opposition our outstanding manufacturing businesses, particularly has wrongly rejected. those in my constituency and across the north-west in general? Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): When the Labour party left government, 770 young people in my The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely constituency were out of work. Today, there are just right to say that the news on manufacturing is good. All 585, and we now have Westfield and Hammerson proposing 13 of the manufacturing sectors have increased—the to invest £1.5 billion to transform our town centre and first time that has happened since 1992. Of course, the create thousands of jobs. Will the Prime Minister meet Labour party does not like hearing that good news, me to discuss how the Government can help with the including the great announcement this week that Jaguar infrastructure improvements that will end the scourge Land Rover is creating 1,700 new jobs. We must go on of youth unemployment in our town that we inherited backing British business, backing exports and backing from the last Government? manufacturing to ensure that we make this a sustainable recovery that works for hard-working people. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Of course we still have more work to do to get Q5. [900247] Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Is the young people into work. Overall, however, 1.4 million Prime Minister embarrassed that, while so many more people are now employed in the private sector and people struggle, City bonuses are up £700 million this we have a historic, record level of women in employment, year? and the number of people in work is almost up by 1 million since the election, with unemployment lower The Prime Minister: As I have said, City bonuses are than at the election and long-term unemployment down actually 86% lower than they were when the hon. Lady on a year ago. We still have more work to do, but we are was supporting the last Government. She tweeted this heading in the right direction. We have to keep on track morning—I follow these things very closely, as you and keep working to help business to take people on. know, Mr Speaker—that she had a question to the Prime Minister, and she asked for suggestions. The first Q8. [900250] Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston suggestion came back: and Bellshill) (Lab): Will the Prime Minister tell us why “How happy are you that Ed Miliband will be the leader of the people with mental illnesses are being kept in police Labour Party at the next election?” cells? I cannot think why she rejected that advice and took advice from the shadow Chancellor instead. The Prime Minister: We are making efforts to try to bring that to an end through better working between Q6. [900248] Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): the NHS and the police. This has been a long-standing Unemployment in my constituency has fallen for six problem under Governments of all colours for a very months running. Today, we have learned that under long time, but we are having those discussions to try to this Government three times as many jobs have been make good progress. 975 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 976

Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): In May 2010, youth private sector jobs. The best way to help people’s living unemployment in Crawley stood at 7.4%; it stands now standards and the best way to help them out of poverty at 3.8%. On 27 September, I am holding a jobs fair in is to help them into work. I would have thought that the Crawley. Does the Prime Minister think that such events Labour party understood that. could be put on by all right hon. and hon. Members to help us further to turn the corner? Q12. [900254] Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): On Monday, the TUC voted in favour of co-ordinated The Prime Minister: I congratulate businesses in Crawley strike action this autumn. What effect does the Prime and my hon. Friend on helping to encourage this private Minister think that that would have on our economy sector-led recovery, which is seeing more people into and on the lives of hard-working people? work. We are also seeing the number of young not in education, employment or training people at its lowest The Prime Minister: I think that the document produced for a decade. As I said, there is absolutely no complacency, by the Unite union, which still sponsors and basically when more work needs to be done to make sure that this controls so many Labour Members, is a very frightening recovery delivers for people who work hard and do the document. It is trade union leaders, not ordinary trade right thing. unionists, who are doing this. It is trade union leaders who want to damage our country and our economy, Q9. [900251] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): In and who are playing politics with our future. April last year, I asked the Prime Minister about the thousands of people visiting food banks, and his reply Q13. [900255] Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): then suggested a shocking complacency. His reply to Tyrell Matthews-Burton was a bright 19-year-old from the Leader of the Opposition today suggests that he Walthamstow who had everything to live for. His only has learned nothing since. Will he answer the question: crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. does he think that the half a million people visiting Yet two months after his brutal murder in Crete, the food banks today simply need to manage their finances only contact that the Greek authorities have had with better, or will he admit that they cannot afford to feed his family has been their posting home of the clothes their families because of his Government? that he was wearing that night. Will the Prime Minister meet me, and his grieving mother, to see how we can The Prime Minister: We should work with and thank get justice for Tyrell? the food bank movement for the excellent work it does, and we should recognise that the use of food banks The Prime Minister: I shall be very happy to hold that went up 10 times under Labour. One of the reasons it meeting. I think it is really important for us to do has increased under this Government is that we took everything we can to help families who are put in such a away the block that the hon. Lady’s party put in place, position. To be fair to our consular services around the which was preventing jobcentres from referring people world, I think that they cope extremely well. They try to to food banks. Labour did not do it because it was bad go the extra mile. They work very hard, and I know that PR, but this Government are interested in doing the the Foreign Office encourages them in all that they do. right thing rather than something that just looks good. However, there are cases in which things do not work out in the way they should, and we struggle to get Q10. [900252] Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Are answers from other countries about their justice systems national standards for sales and marketing practices and what is happening. in this country strong enough to protect against false advertising? Yesterday, a man in Bournemouth Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): Tragically, apparently advertised himself as made of steel, only to John Ray infant school, one of the largest infant schools collapse entirely within seconds! in Braintree, burnt down a few days ago. Will the Prime Minister join me in thanking Essex county council for The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good the speed with which it found alternative accommodation point. I admire everything that happens in Dorset, but I for the children, and in welcoming the encouraging think it needs to look at its trading standards. I have to news that the school is to be rebuilt as soon as possible? say that this man folded faster than a Bournemouth deckchair. The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend in praising his county council. That does sound like a Q11. [900253] Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) tragic event, and it comes on top of the fact that, as (Lab): The Chancellor blames the eurozone crisis for everyone knows, we need to provide more primary problems in the UK economy. Since 2010, however, real school places. I commend the council for its quick wages in France and Germany have risen, when they action. have fallen in Britain. Will the Prime Minister finally take responsibility for the living standards crisis that Q14. [900256] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Since families in this country are facing? the Government took office, the United Kingdom has suffered the second biggest fall in wages that we have The Prime Minister: As I have said many times, times seen in any of the G20 countries. Does the Prime are tough because we are recovering from the calamitous Minister think that that is evidence that he has saved situation left by the Labour party. If the hon. Gentleman our economy? wants to make comparison with eurozone countries, he will see that we have a much lower unemployment rate The Prime Minister: As I have said on several occasions than many of them. There are no other European during this Question Time, if we want to see living countries that can boast a record of 1.4 million new standards recover properly—and I do—there is only 977 Oral Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 978 one sustainable way of making that happen. We need a the number of nurses by more than 5,000 since the growing economy, we need to keep on top of inflation, general election, according to figures published by we need to ensure that mortgage rates are kept low, and the Health and Social Care Information Centre? we then need to cut people’s taxes by raising the personal allowance. That is how we can help households with The Prime Minister: The point is that since the election their disposable income. If we listened to Labour and we have protected health spending and we are putting had more spending, more borrowing and more debt, the an extra £12.7 billion into our NHS, and the number of first things to go up would be interest rates and mortgage clinical staff, including doctors, in our hospitals has rates. For all the talk of the costs that families face, that gone up, whereas the number of managers has gone increase in mortgage rates would wipe out all the hard down. Under Labour, things were heading in an entirely work that we have done. [Interruption.] The shadow different direction. Chancellor says “You wait.” Well, we are waiting—for one single sensible suggestion from a party whose Front Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Successive Benchers have got it comprehensively wrong in the last Governments have condemned ethnic cleansing. Will three years. the Prime Minister today condemn Israel for its ethnic cleansing of 40,000 Bedouin? Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Bangladesh, I am pleased to be leading a delegation as part of the preparation The Prime Minister: This Government have a very for our report on the Rana Plaza collapse. I thank the clear policy on the issue of Israel and on the issue of Department for International Development for its rapid settlements. We respect and welcome Israel’s right to response, and I am grateful for all the extra funding that exist, and we defend that, but on settlements we think was provided for it. Will my right hon. Friend join me in that the Israeli approach is wrong and we condemn the encouraging all businesses in the United Kingdom that settlement activity, and we have been consistent in trade in garments to ensure that their trade is ethical, saying that both privately and publicly. and that other people are not being exploited for the benefit of our markets? George Galloway (Bradford West) (Respect): Does the Prime Minister get it, Mr Speaker: that if it were The Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend not for this House of Commons reflecting the mood on the work that she does to further relations between of the British public, Britain and the United States Britain and Bangladesh, and thank her for her reference would already be in the midst of what, it has turned out, to DFID, which works extremely hard with that country. would have been a wholly unnecessary war? Is not this She is absolutely right to draw attention to that appalling a vindication of Parliament, and a vindication of industrial accident, and to encourage companies to Mr Churchill’s words that jaw-jaw is better than war-war? check their supply chains and establish where their produce is coming from. She has made a very important The Prime Minister: What it is a vindication of is the point, and I wish her well with the work that she is determination to stand up to chemical weapons use. We doing with Bangladesh. would not be in this situation of pursuing new avenues of getting Syrian chemical weapons out of Syria and Q15. [900257] Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) destroyed unless a strong stance had been taken. That is (Lab): Does the Prime Minister think that the A and E the right answer, not crawling up to dictators and telling crisis has anything to do with the fact that he has cut them how wonderful they are. 979 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Personal Statement 980

Personal Statement and the Ribble Valley, and to you, my colleagues on all sides of the House who have spoken with me, looked after me, and just shown loving attention. Party divisions 12.31 pm disappear at times like this—and they have, so thank Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): I hope that my you. hon. and right hon. Friends will bear with me during Rose Hudson-Wilkin, the Speaker’s Chaplain, and this personal statement. It has been a few years since I Andrew Tremlett, the Canon of Westminster Abbey, made a speech in this Chamber, and I am sad to say that have given me superb spiritual guidance, which has this is the speech. given me the one thing that everyone in this world As many of you will know, following recent allegations needs, alongside air, water and food—hope. Hope is I was charged with alleged offences yesterday. I now that essential key to giving us a fulfilled life, and they have the opportunity robustly to defend my innocence have ensured that I retain my hope. and seek acquittal. I have therefore decided that the best This is clearly the most painful thing I have endured course of action is for me to return to the Back Benches. in my life, alongside the loss of my mother in 2009 and This is a decision that I have made myself after careful the loss of my brother earlier this year. Winston Churchill consideration. said, “When you are going through hell, keep going.” I did not have the Conservative Whip as Deputy That is sage advice. And so I will see this through to the Speaker and I am not seeking its return until after the end, with the support of the people who mean so much conclusion of events. I will sit as an independent Member to me. of Parliament for the Ribble Valley. Returning to the Back Benches gives me the opportunity It was one of the happiest days of my life when I was to speak out on issues such as the over-building of new elected Deputy Speaker in 2010. It was an endorsement homes in the Ribble Valley, threats to the Slaidburn of my abilities to do the job by my colleagues, and for doctors’ surgery and cuts to rural bus services—and so that I am grateful. Since these allegations, I have not many others. It is the bread and butter of politics: been able fully to fulfil my duties in the Chair, which left giving support to the people who put me in the mother me in a land of limbo. None of us was elected to the of Parliaments—my home for the past 21 years, and a fine office of Member of Parliament to be put in that place that has meant so much to me. I am proud to serve invidious position: unable fully to fulfil the reason we the people of the Ribble Valley, and the best tribute I were sent here. can give them now is to get on with the job they sent me I am so grateful to the Speaker, and to the two other here to do. Thank you. Deputy Speakers, the right hon. Members for Chorley Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that (Mr Hoyle) and for Bristol South (Dawn Primarolo), personal statement. For the benefit of right hon. and for the unstinting support they have given me over the hon. Members who were not in the Chamber immediately three years, but particularly since 4 May in filling in for after Prayers when I formally notified the House of the me on my Chair duties. When I told the right hon. fact of the hon. Gentleman’s resignation, I should like Member for Bristol South of my decision on Saturday, I to repeat what I said then, just over an hour ago. even got a hug from her: thank you, Dawn. The service that the hon. Gentleman has rendered to I have had so many hugs, prayers and good wishes the House as First Deputy Chairman of Ways of Means since 4 May, and I would like to thank everyone who and a Deputy Speaker of this House has been exemplary. has shown me such compassionate consideration, my He has demonstrated to the satisfaction of colleagues family particularly, and my association who have been throughout the House that he is competent, fair and marvellous, and even seasoned, crusty journalists have good humoured. He has proved to be a loyal and hugely displayed a heart which I have never before witnessed; valued member of the Chair’s team. I am enormously you know who you are. grateful to him, and I know that the Deputy Speakers I was told I will soon see who my real friends are, and feel the same. When the House returns in October, I that has been true, but the truth is there have been so shall notify colleagues of the procedure to be followed many of them, so thank you to my dearest loyal friends, for the election of a successor First Deputy Chairman including loyal members of my staff at Westminster of Ways of Means. 981 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Points of Order 982

Points of Order to get that information to Ministers at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills as fast as possible to 12.37 pm get them urgently to make a statement in this House about how that can have happened, especially since this Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): is not the first time that illegal weapons have been found On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In Question 3 in at DSEI? Scottish questions today, something was referred to as a “separate Scotland”. I do not know what a separate Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Scotland is, and I presume that you do not know what a point of order. Not for the first time, and probably not separate Scotland is, and certainly nobody is trying to for the last, she has found her own salvation. She create one. It is an argumentative term and a pejorative inquires about the quickest means by which to ensure one used by the opponents of Scottish independence. I that her concern is relayed to representatives of the raised this issue with the Clerks yesterday and they Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Those agreed that the term should not have been on the Order on the Treasury Bench will have heard what she has to Paper today. Can you assure me that “separate Scotland” say and I am sure that it will be a matter of only seconds will not appear again in any question on the Order before her remarks wing their way to the Secretary of Paper? State. It is then for him to decide how to respond. It is not a matter of order for the Chair but the hon. Lady is Mr Speaker: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman well aware of the opportunities she has to call Ministers for his point of order and for his characteristic courtesy to account and I feel sure that she will deploy the in giving me advance notice of his intention to raise it. weapons at her disposal. He is, essentially, asking me whether the use of the word “separate” contravenes the rule against argument in John Robertson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. parliamentary questions. The very fact that I am being invited to make a ruling suggests to me that a degree of Mr Speaker: This point of order from the hon. controversy surrounds the word. There is a perfectly Gentleman is, I am sure, on an entirely unrelated matter. serviceable word that is used in legislation—“independent”. I think it would be best if we stuck to that in future John Robertson rose— where the rules of the House require neutral expressions. However, the use of the phrase “a separate Scotland” Mr Speaker: On a separate matter? in debate or in supplementary questions is not unparliamentary. I hope that that is helpful. John Robertson: It is, but there is a connection to the first point of order. I seek your guidance, Mr Speaker. I John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab) rose— totally agree with your judgment on the original point of order, but may we have a judgment on when that Mr Speaker: No further point of order arises in same party attacks Scottish Labour Members of Parliament respect of the ruling on this matter that I have given. I and calls them “London Labour”? That is an insult not know the hon. Gentleman well enough to know that he only to the MPs but to Scotland in general. May I have would not be so unwise or discourteous as to challenge a ruling on that, please? the Chair, because he is both wise and courteous. Mr Speaker: First, I have ruled. Secondly, the hon. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): On a Gentleman, who could not conceal the evident smile on point of order, Mr Speaker. I have evidence, which I his face, is an indefatigable campaigner. He has broad have in my hand, that French company MagForce shoulders and he is well able to look after himself. I International and Chinese company Tianjin Myway think that on this occasion I have nothing to add. He International Trading have been promoting illegal weapons has made his own point in his own way and it is on the of torture at the DSEI arms fair, which is being held in record. I trust that his appetite on the matter is satisfied, London docklands this week. Can you advise me how at least for today. 983 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Medical Innovation (No. 2) 984

Medical Innovation (No. 2) path from which no liability can arise?” The law at present obliges the doctor to follow the status quo, even Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order though they know full well that that standard practice No. 23) leads only to a short period of poor life quality followed by death, and that is how scientific discovery is blocked 12.42 pm by the current state of the law. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I beg to That is not how it was in the past, when innovation move, happened much more readily. For example, penicillin did not face such roadblocks. Present law, however, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision about innovation in medical treatment. mandates that patients receive only the standard procedure, which is really the endless repetition of a failed experiment. It is a great honour to bring this Bill, which was The problem is that the law defines medical negligence introduced in the other place by my noble Friend as a deviation from that standard procedure, so the Lord Saatchi, to the Commons. I want to take this law’s insistence on following the standard procedure is opportunity to thank the many supporters of the Bill in really a barrier to progress on curing cancer. Any doctor’s this House and outside it, who come from across the deviation from standard procedure is likely to amount political spectrum. The fight against cancer and other to medical negligence. diseases is one cause that engenders widespread support. Standard procedure is defined simply as a procedure Cancer, as we all know, is a scourge on society and that would have been followed by a competent body of affects the lives of millions of people in this country, so medical persons skilled in the aspect of medicine in this Bill is about how we can help liberate doctors to question. However, innovation, by its very definition, is innovate and how we can help those deeply dedicated something new—a deviation from what went before doctors in their drive to find cures and improvements to that did not work. Without deviation from standard what are in some cases very stale and even ineffectual procedure, there is no innovation and nothing changes, treatments. and the treatment of many cancers has not changed for Cancer will touch almost every person in this country decades, which is one of the reasons there is no cure for at some time in their life. Many hon. Members will have cancer. places of excellence in their constituencies where scientists In one medical negligence case, it was said in court: may research, doctors treat, nurses care and volunteers “The practitioner who treads the well-worn path will usually comfort. In my constituency of Northampton North, be safer from legal liability than the one who adopts a newly for example, the first-class Cynthia Spencer hospice discovered method of treatment.” provides devoted and invaluable hospice care for those The result of all this is that a doctor deciding how to suffering from this terrible illness. For all these efforts, treat a particular case starts with the knowledge that as though, there is always more that can and must be done. soon as he or she moves away from existing and established The Bill could make every doctor a researcher and standards within the profession, there is an automatic every willing patient a research participant. This country and serious risk that he or she will be found guilty of has already produced 34 Nobel prize winners in medicine, negligence, if the treatment is less successful than hoped. but we want more so we must ensure that the UK stays When there is only one established practice, even if it is ahead, and to keep pace with what is happening, we the same course of treatment that has been applied must radically change the way we innovate. unchanged for 40 years without any particular history The NHS is an amazing asset to innovation because of success, it will be impossible for a doctor to depart it has a huge wealth of information, all consented to, all from it with confidence that he or she will not be anonymised, that is helping it find new answers. The exposed to litigation. end result could be that every willing patient was a Some might ask why a change to the law is suddenly research patient, which would mean that every time a so urgent. It is because while the law may not have patient used the NHS, they would be playing a part in changed much, society has. The number of lawsuits the fight against disease. Echoing those words, the filed against the NHS has doubled in four years. Last Government’s life sciences adviser, my hon. Friend the year’s payout was £1.2 billion. The Treasury provision Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), is joining for claims against the NHS has now reached £19 billion. me by sponsoring the Bill. Doctors are therefore increasingly frightened of being Unfortunately, that vision, which is shared by doctors sued and even less likely to feel able to innovate. and charities, might soon hit a roadblock—a seemingly Furthermore, risk-management processes in the NHS immovable object—of the law, so that is what the Bill is and insurers’ policies only strengthen this roadblock to designed to remedy. Let us imagine that a doctor is innovation. A growing fear of litigation has stifled standing beside a patient and considering a sensible, innovation, which is why we need a change in the law to peer group-approved innovation, to which full consent realise the well-expressed vision that every doctor can has been given, after other options have been exhausted be a researcher. and there is little else that can be done. At the moment, We certainly do not want patients to be treated like that doctor is stopped by the law—or the fear of the mice, so the Bill would set out in law for the first time law, which is the same thing. The doctor must ask the obvious difference between reckless experimentation himself, “Do I really want to go along this route of and responsible, scientific innovation. The Bill actually innovation because, if I do, I will depart from the strengthens the ability of the medical profession to ‘standard procedure’, and then if anything goes wrong, prevent reckless conduct and to control innovation there will be a trial at which I could be found guilty of properly. The good doctor will therefore feel safer in the medical negligence. Should I put my livelihood, family work that he or she does, and the bad doctor will more and reputation at risk, or should I stick to the well-worn easily be revealed as negligent. 985 Medical Innovation (No. 2) 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 986

[Michael Ellis] Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union How will the Bill do that? It will require the formal approval of any proposed innovation by a hospital’s Administration Bill multi-disciplinary team of doctors, so not only will the [Relevant Documents: The Seventh Report from the innovation need the fully informed consent of the patient, Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, on the but a hospital’s own multi-disciplinary team of doctors Government’s Lobbying Bill, HC 601, and the First Report will have to approve it. This is a severe test, more severe from the Committee on Standards, on the Government’s than the two doctors’ authorisation that is required by Lobbying Bill, HC 638.] law in order to carry out, for example, an abortion under the Abortion Act 1967, or the two psychiatrists [3RD ALLOCATED DAY] needed to authorise sectioning someone in a mental Further considered in Committee (Progress reported, health institution under the Mental Health Act 1983. 10 September) Under those provisions, the authorisation of two medical professionals is required. To authorise innovation as I propose, a panel of medical professionals will need to [DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] consent. It is a severe test, but however severe, it is better than the current position, in which the road Clause 36 ahead to any innovation in cancer treatment is closed by law. DUTY TO PROVIDE MEMBERSHIP AUDIT CERTIFICATE The Bill will not cure cancer. It will be doctors who cure cancer. This legislation, however, will give those 12.53 pm wonderful doctors of ours the certainty they need to innovate and eventually find the cure that will bring Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I beg to move such joy to all whose lives have been affected by this amendment 103, page 37, line 39, leave out dreadful disease. I commend the Bill to the House. ‘in relation to each reporting period’ Question put and agreed to. and insert Ordered, ‘if That Michael Ellis and George Freeman present the (a) a formal complaint is received by the Certification Bill. Officer that would result in the Certification Officer requiring a membership audit in relation to the Michael Ellis accordingly presented the Bill. reporting period when the complaint was verified Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on and Friday 13 September 2013, and to be printed (Bill 107). (b) the Certification Officer determined that a certificate was required.’.

The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 104, page 38, line 7, at end insert ‘unless— (a) the Trade Union is appealing the membership certificate; or (b) the Trade Union has challenged the Certification Officer’s acceptance of a membership audit certificate and invoked paragraph (a).’. Amendment 106, page 38, line 22, leave out from ‘certificate’ to end of line 23 and insert ‘for which the trade union may request reasonable payment as per charges for requests for access to accounting periods in section 30(6).’. Amendment 121, in clause 37, page 38, line 42, leave out ‘in relation to each reporting period’ and insert ‘if section 24ZA(1) is invoked’. Clause stand part.

Ian Murray: It is a great pleasure to get to part 3 under your chairmanship, Ms Primarolo. I shall speak to clause stand part as well as to all the amendments in the group. It is totally inadequate that we are discussing part 3 of this hotch-potch of a Bill without having seen the impact assessment for part 3 or any results from the curtailed consultation that was put in place at the start of the process. 987 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 988 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill It is worth putting the amendments into context. The three years on the constitution of this country. They all past three days and the hundreds of e-mails that all aim at one thing—giving advantage to the parties in the Members have received from their constituents show coalition in the upcoming general election. Yesterday how much of a dog’s breakfast the Bill is. It is in good we saw their attempt to hide from lobbying groups and company, following the hotch-potch of the Enterprise not be answerable to them. Now they are trying to and Regulatory Reform Bill and the total shambles that curtail the influence of the trade unions and the support the House witnessed during the passage of the Growth that they give to the Labour party in particular to give and Infrastructure Bill. Part 3 of the Bill before us their own parties an advantage. That is what this is all provides wide-ranging new powers to the certification about. officer on trade union membership lists, but no one, including officials of the Department for Business, Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Innovation and Skills, the discussion paper, the explanatory Government cannot win the next general election on notes, the trade unions and, I bet, even the Minister can the arguments so they nullify the Opposition. It is ironic tell the Committee what problem the Bill is trying to that part 3 heavily regulates trade union membership resolve. lists, whereas most of the stuff attacking workers’ rights The TUC stated in its evidence to the Political and came from the report written by a certain Mr Beecroft, Constitutional Reform Committee: who donated £550,000 to the Conservative party. The “As with part two we are unable to discern the problem that Bill deals not with the Beecrofts of this world but with this part of the Bill is meant to remedy.” the ordinary working people throughout the country. Nigel Stanley from the TUC went on to say: “We have asked BIS, the certification officer and ACAS through Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) freedom of information requests whether they have received or (PC): Does not part 3 show that the Bill is partisan, and made representations that we need to amend current powers to is it not one of the main reasons the Bill has lost the regulate union membership...Wecannot find any demand for confidence of the public? part 3.” The only justification for part 3 has been the publicly Ian Murray: Absolutely. Parts 1 and 2 have been stated view that it came out of a high-level meeting shown to have lost public confidence. I am happy to be between the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime corrected, but since I came to the House in 2010 I do Minister. What a contribution and combination that is. not think I have had this number of lobbying e-mails I wonder whether Lyndon Crosby was in the room at from concerned constituents who feel that they are the time. going to be gagged by this Government. As I said to my Without any rationale for the Bill coming from the hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), Government, perhaps we have to look for our own the governing parties cannot win the next general election rationale. The reason given for the Bill by the Department on the arguments alone so they are trying to nullify the for Business, Innovation and Skills in its discussion opposition, which is made up of trade unions, charities paper is the potential for trade union activity to affect and lobbying organisations which do so much on behalf people’s daily lives. It says: of our constituents throughout the country. “The general public should be confident that voting papers No evidence was put forward in the discussion paper and other communications are reaching union members so that to demonstrate that communications are not reaching they have the opportunity to participate”. trade union members or that there are shortcomings in the existing law relating to a trade union’s duty to Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): My hon. Friend is maintain a register of members. Moreover, no evidence aware, as we all are, of the clamour for at least 20 years was produced to explain why the Government need to for the reform of lobbying practices. Can he think of acquire yet further extensive powers over the lives of any demand for part 3? Is it not sensible to judge that citizens and voters through this mechanism. this is merely an afterthought—a spiteful swipe at the trade union movement—in order to distract from the 1pm fact that the Bill does not address 95% of commercial corporate lobbyists? Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend find it as bizarre as I do that the Government are Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is right. Parts 1 and 2 demanding that trade unions reveal their membership have been shown over the past few days to be utterly lists in detail, yet the Conservative party keeps its deficient. There is no evidence, no drive, no remedy to membership secret? be pursued, no problem to be resolved that would justify part 3. There is legislation in place, which I shall Ian Murray: My hon. Friend makes an interesting come on to later, which shows that membership lists intervention—the Under-Secretary of State for Business, from trade unions are heavily regulated already. Part 3 Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East is merely a legislative burden on the trade unions timed Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), a Lib Dem Minister, to deflect attention, as my hon. Friend says, from other shakes her head—and he is absolutely right; the parts of the Bill that are completely deficient. Conservative party refuses point blank not only to give us any details of its membership, but to tell us how Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): My hon. Friend many members it has. I believe that is either because it hit the nail on the head when he said that part 3 came cannot tell us or because its membership lists are deficient. from the high-level discussion between the Prime Minister [Interruption.] The Government Whip chunters “Tell and the Deputy Prime Minister. This is a continuation us yours” from the Treasury Bench, but essentially we of other Bills that have been introduced over the past are talking about the Conservative party. 989 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 990 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Murray] could give absolutely no evidence whatsoever for what he was suggesting, yet some of those suggestions can be The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, found in this Bill today. in its justification for this part of the Bill, stated: “The general public should be confident that voting papers Ian Murray: Absolutely, which is why we should be and other communications are reaching union members so that addressing those issues in the Beecroft report, because they have the opportunity to participate” they influence part 3 of the Bill. Perhaps Ministers, because they affect everyday lives in this country. Well, rather than chuntering from a sedentary position, might if the governing party does not affect the daily lives of at last answer some of these questions when they come people in this country, I do not know who does. Perhaps to the Dispatch Box. we should extend the Bill’s provisions to that party. The I was talking about the lack of suitable consultation. only thing we know about Conservative party membership, As far as I am aware, the Government have still not of course, is that the average age is 68, which might tell published an impact or cost assessment for part 3 us something about where the party is going. —[Interruption.] The Minister says that they have, but We should not be surprised by the Government’s it was not there at 10.30 this morning. They did publish failure to provide any evidence, as we know that they assessments for parts 1 and 2 back in July. In fact, the run by opinion poll and anecdote. The House will recall equality assessment states: the now infamous Beecroft report, which would take “A full impact assessment will be developed after, and informed this country’s employment rights and health and safety by, a period of targeted consultation and engagement of a range landscapes back to the era of Queen Victoria. When of experts.” Beecroft appeared before the Enterprise and Regulatory But the Committee is debating this legislation before Reform Bill Committee last year, he said that he had any of that work has been either completed or formally absolutely no evidence to back up such claims on published. compensated no-fault dismissal and the abolition of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, to name but a few, but that his assessments were based on anecdotal evidence Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): On the and who he had spoken to. This “met a guy in a pub” question of consultation, my hon. Friend has quoted type policy making is certainly not good government. from the TUC’s evidence, which was given to my Committee in very short order indeed, because the Committee decided that the House should have some evidence. The Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): My hon. Friend reality is that this part of the Bill appeared eight working raises some fundamental human rights issues. When I days ago; it appeared just before the end of July, the day asked the Deputy Leader of the House yesterday why before the House rose, and Second Reading was the day the Government had failed to produce a human rights after the House returned, so that is three working days, memorandum, he failed to answer. Perhaps that speaks and that was a week ago. If one wanted part of a Bill to volumes—[Interruption.] I am not sure what the Leader not be properly scrutinised, this is precisely how one of the House just said from a sedentary position, but would do it. Either this House will do the scrutiny perhaps he will want to respond properly in due course. properly, or the other place will do it in due course. Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We will move on to clause 37 later this afternoon, when we Ian Murray: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that will address some of the issues relating to confidentiality intervention. As Chair of the Political and Constitutional and the European articles. [Interruption.] The Leader Reform Committee, he has done some wonderful work of the House chunters from a sedentary position that on the Bill, and at very short notice. It is a great credit we should speak to the amendments. As I understand it, not only to him and the Committee’s staff, but to the Mr Speaker has grouped the stand part debate with the other Members who serve on it. He has demonstrated amendments, and I am addressing why I think clause 36 how the Government operate. If one wanted to put and part 3 of the Bill are deficient, which I think is something through that was ideologically driven but did perfectly appropriate. not want it to be scrutinised, one would do as the Government have done with this Bill. I was talking about the Beecroft report’s ideological attack on working people and how the Government are making it easier to fire, rather than hire, employees. Paul Flynn: Was not my hon. Friend astonished by That is reflected in the thrust behind amendment 103— the fact that, while 11 Conservative MPs last night I say this for the benefit of the Leader of the House—and voted against the low, mean attack on charities, not a subsequent amendments in this group. The Government single Lib Dem MP did so? Why does he think they are have yet again failed to produce any evidence whatsoever so enthusiastic to embrace their own extinction? on what problem they are trying to resolve and what the impact will be on membership lists. Not only do they Ian Murray: My hon. Friend tempts me to use have no evidence, but, as I mentioned at the start of my unparliamentary language, but I will not go down that speech, they do not even have an impact assessment for route. It is a fact that last night every single Lib Dem this part of the Bill and they have done no suitable Member went into the Lobby with the Government to consultation. vote for part 2 and that it was only Conservative rebels who decided not to put up with the Bill. I think that is John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): My hon. unfortunate. Friend will remember that Adrian Beecroft appeared before the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Will the hon. Gentleman Committee last year. When asked detailed questions, he give way? 991 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 992 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Ian Murray: I will take one more intervention, but are nothing without their members; they exist to represent then I will have to make some progress. their members. They invest in a wide array of ways of communicating with them—from printed magazines, Andrew George: I do not want to tempt the hon. leaflets and posters, to websites, social media and Gentleman into using unparliamentary language, but e-newsletters. he is factually incorrect. I do not wish to have yesterday’s Let us look at what clause 36 proposes for unions debate about charities all over again, but the fact is that with more than 10,000 members. Should political parties reassurances were given by the Government that there is have to account for their members? On Second Reading, a lot of work to be done, in which I hope we will all the Leader of the House said: engage so that we can bring forward improvements on “Trade unions are influential participants in public life. They Report. I would have thought that we should all be have an important role representing members’ interests both with working constructively towards that end. specific employers and in wider public debate.”—[Official Report, 3 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 184.] Ian Murray rose— Who would argue with that? On the certification of trade union membership details, the Department for The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Business, Innovation and Skills discussion paper says (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Perhaps we could return to on page 4: clause 36 and the amendments before us. General Third Reading points about the entire Bill, or any comments “Trade union activity has the potential to affect the daily lives of members and non- members.” about the whole part, are not in order. Surely those definitions apply as much to political parties Ian Murray: Thank you, Ms Primarolo. You are as to trade unions. Political parties represent their members’ absolutely right. That would have tempted me to discuss interests, influence wider public debate and can affect the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) producing the lives of members and non-members. Trade union amendments to other Bills in Committee and then not members represent a very wide and varied section of following through on the Floor of the House. the general public. I was talking about the Government’s failure to produce The House of Commons Library brief shows that any evidence, which I think feeds into amendment 103, there are 7.2 million trade unionists. They represent a because it is critical to the operation of the entire part, cross-section of ages, are split evenly in terms of gender in relation to clause 36. My second point about the and are well represented in terms of race, disability and Department’s consultation is that it has not published types of work. Surely trade unions are in a good position or responded to any of the responses. The only information to influence and share public opinion. In sharp contrast, that Members of the House have seen is when people there is an organisation that is the complete opposite who have responded to the BIS consultation have self- and totally unrepresentative—the aforementioned published them, and I do not think that is good enough. Conservative party, which refuses to say how many members it has. Trade unions are already heavily regulated, not just with regard to membership, but in other areas, too. No other membership organisations, voluntary sector groups, Mr Allen: On a point of order, Ms Primarolo. My businesses or, indeed, political parties in the UK are Committee looked at the White Paper on the lobbying subject to equivalent rules. There are already extensive Bill about 18 months ago. It made no mention of regulations through the Trade Union and Labour Relations anything to do with the trade unions. The trade union Act of 1992 and the provisions of the Data Protection provisions appeared in July, one day before the House Act 1998—a fact that the Government seem to have rose—a bit about trade unions was bolted on to a Bill wholeheartedly disregarded in bringing forward the Bill— that all of us in the House had already dealt with as a and the responsibility trade unions have to the Information lobbying Bill. Is it in order for those provisions to have Commissioner. been added when the House has been under the misapprehension that the Bill is about lobbying? Is this Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): When not a hybrid Bill and therefore disqualified from discussion the hon. Gentleman refers to the 1992 Act, he is of in the House? course referring to legislation from the mid-1980s that was virtually lifted into that Act. Does he not think that The Second Deputy Chairman: The hon. Gentleman it is now time for a general review of that 1980s legislation? is very experienced and has been a Member for a long time. As he knows, what he has asked is not a point of Ian Murray: If the hon. Gentleman wants to bring order. The House has given the Bill a Second Reading, forward a general review of any legislation, he is more and his points are for debate, if necessary, on the Floor than welcome to do so. Perhaps in my haste I forgot to of the House. They are certainly not a matter of order use the word “consolidated”. I was referring to the for the consideration of the Chair today. Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, because of course it consolidated lots of Ian Murray: Thank you, Ms Primarolo, for that legislation from the mid-1980s. ruling on an important point of order. I remind my It is self-evident that trade unions want to have good hon. Friend, the Chair of the Political and Constitutional membership records; I cannot see why anyone would Reform Committee, that other stuff has been bolted on argue that they do not. It is in trade unions’ own to Bills, including the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform interests to engage with members just as any voluntary Bill—disgracefully, the agricultural wages board was organisation wishes to maximise membership fees and abolished at the last minute in the House of Lords ensure that people want to remain as members. Unions without any political debate in this House. 993 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 994 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Murray] the issue he raises about shareholders? Obviously, that would be in order—anything can be added. Hon. Members Before the Government start lecturing unions about from across the House could add stuff on child care, transparency, they should take a long, hard look in the foreign policy or the Government’s war-making powers. mirror, subject themselves to this legislation and publish Bringing forward a Bill and bolting on a part such as their own membership audit certificate. this at a very late stage is an abuse. It is surely not in order. Mr McKenzie: Will my hon. Friend share with the Committee why he thinks a Government who came to The Second Deputy Chairman: power saying that they would cut and eliminate red tape Order. As I said to the hon. Gentleman, I will decide should apply it to the trade unions? what is in order. If a Bill has unrelated purposes in it, that does not necessarily make it a hybrid Bill in procedural Ian Murray: That is a good question. The Government terms. It would be as well for us to concentrate on the have a policy initiative of taking out two regulations points before us now. for every one brought in. Will the Minister say which regulatory burden she will be removing from the trade Ian Murray: Thank you for that ruling, Ms Primarolo. union movement, given the regulations that she has just All I would say is that my hon. Friend the Member for put on the statute book? The Government have Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) is one of the most experienced wholeheartedly refused to deal with zero-hours contracts, people in the House. Perhaps he could bring forward an blacklisting, payday loans and the high cost of credit, amendment on Report to consider the issue of regulating but they are unnecessarily piling regulations on to the shareholders. trade unions. Mr Hamilton: I’ll get on the phone. Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Is not my hon. Friend’s point the fact that the Government do not Ian Murray: I am sure that he will be phoning round want to regulate people such as Lynton Crosby, yet do urgently to get that going. want to punish trade unions, whose only sin is to represent the ordinary working person? The only things Mr Djanogly rose— they have ever campaigned for are people’s right to work, the ending of zero-hours contracts, decent pay Ian Murray: I will give way once more, and then and conditions, and decent standards. They are being I must make progress. hit, yet all the rich lobbyists such as Lynton Crosby are allowed to get off scot free. Mr Djanogly: The hon. Gentleman must appreciate that shareholder registers are much more highly regulated 1.15 pm than union registers. That is one reason why we need to Ian Murray: My hon. Friend tempts me to stray from see the changes. the amendments, but she is absolutely right. Week after week, the Prime Minister tells us at Prime Minister’s Ian Murray: I do not think that shareholders are questions how wonderful the car industry is. The car balloted on remuneration; they do not have much ability industry in this country was saved by a partnership of to stop remuneration packages. They are not balloted people who owned the car industry, the trade unions on political donations or the overall direction of the and the work force all working together. The industry company. In fact, individual shareholders in businesses survived and is now in a healthy position—all credit to are very weak indeed. all those involved. Mr Djanogly rose— Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on outlining why the unions are being Ian Murray: I am happy to give way one last time to singled out. If the issue is fairness, should not shareholders the hon. Gentleman. of every company be balloted every time approaches are made to the Government? Mr Djanogly: The Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 does deal with votes for remuneration. Indeed, Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That companies have to have annual votes for political is why I am so concerned that clause 36 has been added donations—unlike unions, which vote only every 10 years to this part of the Bill without discussion or proper to see whether they have a political fund at all. consultation. There are already strict legislative mechanisms to look after trade union membership, but none at Ian Murray: At least when everybody is balloted on all to regulate shareholders or indeed members of the anything to do with trade union membership, it is Conservative party. The fact that that party will not say completely and utterly transparent because it is already how many members it has shows that we need regulation regulated. That is why we do not need this part of the for that issue as well. Bill; trade unions are rather heavily regulated already. I move on to amendment 104, on the membership Mr Allen: Could not the shadow Minister answer our audit certificate. The Bill states that a union must send hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) any membership audit certificate in relation to the in this way? If on a lobbying Bill we are allowed to add annual reporting period to the certification officer at in stuff about charities and trade unions, could not our the same time as the trade union annual report. That hon. Friend produce another part to the Bill that addressed may be good and well, but there is absolutely no natural 995 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 996 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill justice for the trade union itself; that point has been which permits a margin of error. The remedy for failure made forcefully by the National Union of Teachers. to comply with these requirements is by way of complaint What if the membership certificate is challengeable? It to the certification officer or the courts. Section 25 of would not be correct for a document of such magnitude the Act states: to be delivered to the certification officer, with all their “A member of a trade union who claims that the union has new regulatory, enforcement and investigatory powers, failed to comply with any of the requirements of section 24…may without allowing the trade union an opportunity to apply to the Certification Officer for a declaration to that effect.” appeal what the certificate says. The main thrust of amendment 103 is that, in our view, There are no mechanisms at this stage for the union clause 36 is without foundation and encourages vexatious to make representations to the certification officer on inquiries for no purpose. I also contend that it will not the content of the certificate. That does not seem to be a make membership lists any more accurate. I will be proper process of natural justice or, indeed, fairness. interested to hear whether the Minister has any evidence The methods that assurers will follow to determine a whatsoever that demonstrates that overlaying this law membership audit certificate are not yet known. Moreover, on to the existing law will make trade unions’ membership given that there is already a well-established body of law lists any more accurate. covering the membership lists of trade unions, there On Second Reading, the Leader of the House said of should be a proper mechanism to appeal or challenge a the clause: certificate. “It will require trade unions visibly to demonstrate that they In the absence of a clear process, trade unions should know who their members are and can contact them. The principle have the right to challenge the certification officer’s that unions must be able to contact their members”— acceptance of a membership audit certificate. This should this is key— involve a pause in publication and the right for the union “is well established in legislation.”—[Official Report, 3 September 2013; to make representations on the content of the certificate, Vol. 184, c. 567.] with ultimately, perhaps, an appeal to the Employment He is right; it is well established in law already. The facts Appeal Tribunal, where qualified judges can make a bear this out, and I will give some of them to highlight determination that any qualifications on an audit certificate how detailed membership information already is, as are valid and appropriate. The amendment would pause shown by the extensive annual reports published on the the sending of a membership audit certificate to the certification officer’s website. First, the certification officer’s certification officer if the trade union is appealing the annual report for 2012-13 says that 166 trade unions certificate or has indicated to the certification officer submitted returns—not membership lists but returns— that he should not accept the certificate and the trade recording a total of 7,197,415 members, a figure that union will be appealing its content through a process does not appear to be inaccurate, compared with 7,261,210 to be determined. That is a fair and reasonable way to in the previous year: again, a very exact figure. The uphold natural justice and provide a degree of certainty largest reduction in membership was in the construction in the system. I hope that the Minister will consider the sector, which perhaps says more about the Government’s amendment. policies than trade union membership. Since the Government have been unable to justify Secondly, the annual return has to include a copy of what this part of the Bill is trying to achieve and will the auditor’s report on the accounts, allowing the not even tell us their party’s own membership levels, we certification officer to compare revenue from dues with must start from a position of determining whether the the numbers reported. In 2012-13, the last full year for existing system is working. The Opposition will do that which returns have been published on the certification work for the Government if they are not willing to do it. officer’s website, the returns showed that income from As the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) members increased by 1.3% to £873 million. The returns said, since the mid-1980s every trade union has been also show that the total number of contributing members under a duty to compile and maintain a register of the was about 90.5% of the total membership, compared names and addresses of its members. That duty is with 89.4% in the preceding year. There are a number of provided for in section 24 of the Trade Union and detailed reasons why those figures differ, but to go into Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. Under that them would rule me out of order. As I am trying to Act, a trade union has a duty to maintain a register of demonstrate, the information is already available in names and addresses of its members and a duty, the public domain for anyone to dig into. It is on the “so far as reasonably practicable”, certification officer’s website, transposed from the annual to ensure that entries in the register are kept up to date. reports of each of the 166 trade unions that submitted Section 24 also provides that a union must allow any their returns. I would think that any reasonably independent member, on reasonable notice, to ascertain whether the person looking at those publicly available reports would register contains an entry relating to him or her and, if agree that the Government already have extensive requested, supply a copy of any such entry. This means information-gathering powers on the finances and that the trade union has an existing obligation in law to membership of trade unions. ensure that its records are accurate. Significantly, in 2012-13 not a single trade union The existing law specifies that there is an obligation member lodged a complaint with the certification officer to remove from the register the names of those no about the maintenance of the register’s names and longer wishing to be members, that the primary addresses. responsibility for informing a union of a change of address is that of the member—I hope that hon. Members Mr Djanogly: The hon. Gentleman says that no one remember that part, in particular—and that there is a made a complaint. Can that not be turned around? If duty to secure an accurate register members of the public suffer when a service is removed “so far as reasonably practicable”, because of a fraudulent union vote and they cannot go 997 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 998 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Mr Djanogly] the tightest in the European Union. I can think of one ballot for industrial action that was ruled illegal because about their daily work, why should only members of the a comma was in the wrong place. The idea that trade union be able to complain about that and ask for an unions—this is the notion suggested by the hon. Member investigation? for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly)—are conducting fraudulent ballots left, right and centre is simply illusory. Ian Murray: Members of the public are suffering not because of the trade unions but because of the policies 1.30 pm of the Government. While the hon. Gentleman continues to attack ordinary working people up and down this Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We country, people will be looking at this at home and are getting to the crux of the issue, because it is becoming thinking how out of touch this Government are. clear exactly why this part has been included in the Bill. I repeat that in 2012-13, significantly, not a single It has nothing whatsoever to do with the accuracy or trade union member out of the 7,197,415 members otherwise of the membership lists of trade unions. If registered with the certification officer made one complaint the Committee does not believe me, it should listen to to him about the maintenance of the registers of members’ Lord Tyler, the Liberal Democrat spokesperson on names and addresses—that is, not one complaint from constitutional affairs, who said that one explanation for nearly 7.2 million people. Let me emphasise that the this part of the Bill is the role that some unions play in trade unions and the certification officer work very the Labour party: closely together because they have a mutual interest in “The third arm of the Bill is about ensuring that trade unions ensuring that processes are accurate and transparent. have accurate membership lists. We will listen carefully to what people have to say about how the detail of this is set up, but the The certification officer’s own figures bear this out, and principle seems beyond dispute. The membership numbers of a it is worth recording them; it is a shame that the hon. trade union have a bearing on how much money they can give to a Gentleman does not have a piece of paper and a pen to political party through their political funds. In this sense, the write them down. Some of the figures may shock Members trade unions have a unique role in UK politics. It is therefore because they reaffirm how much of this Bill is completely important for transparency’s sake that the membership lists are ideologically driven and total and utter nonsense. accurate.” In the past five years, the certification officer has had I agree with Lord Tyler that it is important that the lists no complaints to adjudicate on from, if we take the are accurate, but they are already heavily regulated in figure of 7.2 million, a total of nearly 40 million people law. I think this has more to do with the Government’s on the membership registers. In fact, he has had only six obsession with the Labour party and trade unions than complaints since 2000. Five of those were dismissed with legislating to help hard-working, ordinary people. and he did not even issue a declaration on the sixth. Only 10 complaints have gone to a decision since 1987. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I had hoped that we would get an explanation as to why this part of Mr Djanogly: Is the hon. Gentleman maintaining the Bill is essential. If the only argument that can be that because union members are not complaining about made is that the public should be able to complain their own unions everyone else should be content? about a controversial ballot, surely if it was that controversial it would be taken up by the trade union movement and a trade unionist would object to it rather Ian Murray: I keep giving way to the hon. Gentleman than wait for a member of the public to do so. to be polite, but his interventions are complete nonsense. We are talking about 7 million to 12 million people Ian Murray: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. being on the registers of trade union members every No general secretary of a trade union, whether it is single year going back to 1987. That information is affiliated to the Labour party or not, would take strike verifiable under current legislation and publicly available action on the basis of a 51:49% vote of its membership. on the certification officer’s website. Yet all the hon. It would also be concerned about the legality of its Gentleman can say is that there is a problem. Why do membership list if any of it was found to be inaccurate, we need this Bill to go beyond the existing legislation? I but the point is that legislation on the accuracy of am happy to give way to him again if he wants to tell membership lists already exists. It is in the union’s best me, in no more than one intervention, why part 3 and interests—this has nothing to do with strike action—to clause 36 are necessary. have and maintain accurate membership lists, because it wants to communicate with its members, and it is also Mr Djanogly: People who are not members of a in the members’ interests to ensure that the unions have union may have a complaint against, for instance, a vote accurate details. that is taken, and therefore a proper investigation procedure is needed. Yasmin Qureshi: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill was supposed to deal with moneys being exchanged Ian Murray: That has absolutely nothing to do with so that people could pursue personal agendas to, in the registration of 7.2 million trade union members. If effect, line their pockets? We have heard about lobbying an individual member of a trade union on that list has a scandals, but the Bill was never intended to cover trade complaint, I do not see any reason why they would not union members who write to their local MPs to say, “I raise it. don’t agree with zero-hours contracts,” or, “My pay is absolutely rubbish; could you please fight for my pay John Cryer: My hon. Friend will be aware that the and my terms and conditions?” That is not what the Bill legal strictures on trade unions with regard to balloting was meant to be designed for, yet it is being used as a are among the tightest in the world; they are certainly weapon to hit the ordinary working person. 999 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1000 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am Mr Allen: My hon. Friend is making a powerful and not even sure whether Government Members have read compelling speech. I am tempted, as the organiser of amendment 103, because it agrees with the need for a the highly successful 1985 political fund ballots, to process, but only if a proper complaint is made and venture into all our yesterdays, but I will limit myself to verified and the certification officer decides that the one question. He is telling us that there have been no process has to be followed. There is nothing wrong with complaints whatsoever, yet the lobbying Bill has a big that. It is incredibly transparent. part on trade unions. Has he noticed that, although complaints have been made over and over again about Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab): My hon. lobbying, big business, money and sleaze, they do not Friend is right to highlight the very small number of appear in a Bill that is called the lobbying Bill, and that complaints made to the certification officer. I have in something about which there have been no complaints my hand the text of a speech that was given at a has a big section in it? Is he able to explain that to me? conference that I organised for trade unions and at which the certification officer spoke. The certification Ian Murray: I am delighted that this Committee officer had done an analysis of complaints and, importantly, sitting has allowed the Chair of the Political and highlighted a small number of cases. He found that Constitutional Reform Committee a little walk down memory lane with regard to his organisation of ballots “some of the allegations are clearly made with a view to cause problems for the union and not necessarily because of concern for in the mid-’80s. He is right that there is no compelling the member’s interests”, evidence. Of the hundreds and hundreds of e-mails I have received from constituents about the Bill, not one and that has mentioned part 3, because the public are concerned “some of the allegations of irregularities come from those involved with lobbying, which is what this Bill was supposed to in the irregularities”. address. There was nothing of any substance in most of the As I was saying, only 10 complaints had gone to a complaints made. decision since 1987. As my hon. Friends have suggested in their interventions, we must wonder whether the Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is right. Our amendment certification officer needs any of these powers, given would allow people who have a proper complaint about the level of activity there is on membership lists. Indeed, a trade union’s membership list to make it through the the certification officer has less work to do in this normal channels, and the certification officer would particular area than the Leader of the House has in then determine whether the complaint was vexatious or counting support for the Bill. People will be asking had merit before, on top of all that, deciding whether to themselves whether the powers are unnecessary and instigate a process. If people wish to make legitimate disproportionate, and the answer is clearly yes. complaints about a trade union’s membership, this Bill Let us reflect again on what the Leader of the House gives them a mechanism to do so, but our proposal is said on Second Reading: that they should be able to do so only if the professionalism “All we are doing is asking unions to provide an annual of the certification officer proves that that process it is assurance that they are doing everything that they can to ensure required. Given that there have been only 10 complaints that they know who their members are and how to contact since 1987, I think the certification officer is pretty wily them.”—[Official Report, 3 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 185.] in determining what is and what is not a vexatious claim. That is almost a one-paragraph description of the current legislation that trade unions abide by, including the Mr Anderson: It is interesting that my hon. Friend Data Protection Act and their responsibilities to the has gone back to 1987, because the root of the original Information Commissioner’s Office. The current law establishment of this law in the 1980s was a direct prescribes exactly that. It says that trade unions should political attempt by the then Conservative Government ensure that they do all that is—we will come back to to get trade union members to undermine their own this terminology again—“reasonably practicable” to union. There was a backlash after the miners’ strike maintain their membership lists. when the then Government instigated the setting up of While the Government trumpet the slashing of red the scab unit to try to undermine the trade union tape for business, as my hon. Friend the Member for activities of the National Union of Mineworkers. Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) said—and for “slashing red The issue here is that only a small number of people tape” read “demolishing workers’ rights back to what complain to a certification officer. Does my hon. Friend they were in Victorian times”—they are imposing a know—if the Minister were listening, she might be able completely unnecessary burden on trade unions to resolve to answer as well—whether there is any evidence that a problem that does not exist. Indeed, officials at the the certification officer has raised concerns? Has he said Department for Business, Innovation and Skills cannot that this is not working and that we need to change it? tell us what the problem is. My understanding is that that has never happened. Amendment 103, with consequential amendment 121, would result in part 3 of the Bill coming into force only Ian Murray: The trade unions have complied with the if a complaint was received and verified by the certification legislation, with bells on, every single year since it was officer as a valid compliant, and if the certification introduced in the mid-’80s, and the published figures officer felt that a membership certificate process was are available to the public from the certification office. required. That goes back to the intervention of my hon. As I have said, the TUC made a freedom of information Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran). request to the certification officer asking whether he The trade unions have absolutely nothing to hide. The had recommended a change in the law to the Government, amendment would mean that part 3 would come into and he replied that no discussions had taken place. That force only if a verifiable and non-vexatious claim came underlines my hon. Friend’s point. forward. 1001 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1002 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Is there not a legal been searching for the impact assessment. I think that contradiction in the Bill? A trade union has a duty the Minister might be referring to the equality assessment, under the Data Protection Act to keep in its records, but not the impact assessment. We will wait for it to be not to divulge, personal and private details relating to photocopied and handed round. each member. If the Bill is passed, it will give the certification officer, the certification officer’s staff and Mr Allen: When my hon. Friend gets an impact the new assurers access to that information. That is a assessment, would he mind popping one over to the huge contradiction and I believe that it contravenes Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, because European law. Should we not consider that at the first we are meant to be doing some of the scrutiny of the possible opportunity? Bill?

Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is right that there are Ian Murray: We are compiling a rather expensive list contradictions with the Data Protection Act and an of photocopying. inconsistency with articles 8 and 11 of the European convention on human rights. Those matters will come Jo Swinson: I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that up when we discuss clause 37 and the cluster of amendments although he has been searching so hard for the impact to it. Those inconsistencies highlight the way in which assessment, he clearly has not looked on gov.uk, which part 3 has been completely rushed through, without any one might have expected would be an obvious place to proper consultation or dialogue with the people who look. are involved. There is also no identifiable problem that will be resolved. Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): It should be in the My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) Vote Office. has just informed me that, as of 1.35 pm this afternoon, the Vote Office still did not have an impact assessment Jo Swinson: I happily accept that it should be in the or a response to the consultation. [Interruption.] The Vote Office. We are looking into that now. Minister might say that that is not correct, but that information must be available to Members. If it is Ian Murray: I have looked at the pages of the gov.uk available, I wonder whether the Minister’s office could website that relate to the Bill incessantly over the past photocopy two dozen copies and pass them around. week or so. The only thing I have been able to find is the equality assessment for the Bill. As far as I am aware, the impact assessment is not there. I am not trying to be Ian Lavery: It is extremely important with Bills of difficult with the Minister. If it has been published on this nature that there is consultation with all parties that the website, we would certainly be talking about its could be affected. Part 3 was introduced in July without contents. any prior notification. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) said, there have been only eight working days since then. There has been a 1.45 pm lack of consultation and there might not have been any. We have received legal advice that, because this is being Mr Djanogly: On process and transparency, will the done without prior consultation, it could violate the hon. Gentleman advise the Committee who drafted the rights to privacy and freedom of association that are Opposition amendments? Was it the unions that gave enshrined in the European convention on human rights. them to him? If so, which unions, or was it union-paid What is my hon. Friend’s view of that? lawyers? That should be reported for the purposes of transparency.

Ian Murray: There is a very strong view that part 3 Ian Murray: That kind of intervention is pathetic. contravenes the European convention on human rights. Let me put it on the record, in front of the Committee The Committee will discuss that in some detail when it and the country, that I drafted all the Opposition considers clause 37. That just shows how part 3 is being amendments personally because I take an interest in the rushed through. Bill and it is part of my shadow ministerial portfolio. I I say to the Minister that I am happy to pass around a did every single bit of the work myself. I also refer hat so that Opposition Members who want to see the Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ impact assessment can pay for the photocopying and so Financial Interests. I have a £2,000 constituency that her office does not have to waste paper. Perhaps she development programme with the Union of Shop, could come to the Dispatch Box and tell us whether it is Distributive and Allied Workers. That is as far as my available. responsibilities go in declaring such issues. If the hon. Member for Huntingdon would like a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, crash course on how to write amendments, I would be Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I will happily explain. happy to meet him this evening. Perhaps he could then The assessment has been in the public domain for more write some amendments to make the Bill better. All I than eight days on gov.uk. My understanding is that it would need to do is show him how to spell the word has been sent to the Vote Office, but we are investigating “delete”. That would certainly make the Bill better. whether there has been a problem in communication. [Interruption.] The Government Whip chunters that we should have declared our interests at the start. He Ian Murray: Problems of communication are not the will not even tell us how many members the Conservative responsibility of the Opposition. My hon. Friend the party has, never mind anything to do with the Register Member for Hartlepool, the staff in my office in Edinburgh of Members’ Financial Interests. We are absolutely and the office of the shadow Business Secretary have transparent and people can look at my entry. 1003 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1004 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Mr Allen: Given that my hon. Friend has been so and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992—will busy drafting his amendments, he might not have heard be passed on to the membership in the form of membership all the proceedings over the past two days. I advise him fees. to be very careful about offering to draft amendments I therefore ask the Minister to answer a number of for the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), questions on this group of amendments. Has the because he may end up becoming a lobbyist under the certification officer asked for the additional powers? definition in the Bill. As the right hon. Member for Has the certification officer approached the Department Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said the other for Business, Innovation and Skills to say that those day, he could end up with the IPSA of lobbying looking powers are necessary, and that he would like the at what he is doing. I therefore advise him to tread Government to legislate to ensure they are introduced? carefully. Has DBIS consulted the certification office, trade unions and other relevant organisations on whether the powers Ian Murray: I am delighted that my hon. Friend are required and, if so, why? Have there been meetings intervened, because it allowed me to look at the Register between certification office and DBIS officials on the of Members’ Financial Interests. I am surprised that the subject at which anyone described a need for a problem hon. Member for Huntingdon cannot draft his own to be resolved? Have the Government considered the amendments and would like a crash course from me, two-out, one-in regulation policy, or demonstrated what given that he received a £21,406 donation from a legal measures will be removed to alleviate the burden of firm only a few years ago. Perhaps it is lobbying him regulation on trade unions? Lastly, will the Minister about the Bill. Perhaps he would like to stand up and give the certification officer additional resources to deal correct the record. with the problem? If the answer is yes, there will also be I forget where we were, but I will go back to discussing an onus on trade unions to find additional resources. amendment 103 and consequential amendment 121. Amendment 106, on additional resources, is fairly Amendment 103 would prevent vexatious claims. The standard and self-explanatory. The new bureaucratic Lib Dem Minister should think about that carefully. process will be costly for trade unions, and those costs The principle behind introducing the draconian fee of will ultimately be passed on to the trade union membership. £1,250 for people who want to seek justice through an At a time when we should do all we can to encourage a employment tribunal was that it would prevent vexatious healthy trade union membership in the UK, we must claims. A Bill that deals with trade union membership not put the burden of this ideologically driven policy on lists should therefore deal with the fact that vexatious to those hard-working members. Under the amendment, claims might be made to the certification officer. The a charge to cover the costs of production can be levied. amendment would resolve that by giving the certification There is a reasonable charge for accessing Companies officer the power to consider whether vexatious claims House information on companies—the hon. Member had been made. for Huntingdon is interested in those regulations. That Secondly, the amendment would prevent third parties principle should be continued in the Bill. I believe the from submitting unwarranted queries. Interestingly, third charge is £1 or £2 to access basic information from party submissions are mentioned in the consultation Companies House. The amendment would make the but not in the Bill. I wonder whether the Minister could Bill consistent with section 30(6) of the 1992 Act—this address that point when she comes to the Dispatch Box. has been discussed at great length by my hon. Friends— The amendment would reduce unnecessary costs for which states: trade unions. The Government parties tend to forget “Where a member who makes a request for access to a union’s that any additional costs for trade unions from draconian accounting records is informed by the union, before any arrangements legislation—there is no evidence for the Bill and it does are made in pursuance of the request…(a)…of the union’s intention not resolve any identifiable problem—is merely pushed to charge for allowing him to inspect the records to which the request relates, for allowing him to take copies of, or extracts on to the 7.2 million members, whose membership fees from, those records or for supplying any such copies, and…(b)…of are then increased.. Any additional costs hit ordinary the principles in accordance with which its charges will be workers who are already engulfed by the Government’s determined…then, where the union complies with the request, he cost-of-living crisis. is liable to pay the union on demand such amount, not exceeding The amendment would give the certification officer a the reasonable administrative expenses incurred by the union in complying with the request, as is determined in accordance with mechanism to take complaints—he must ensure that those principles.” they are verified as competent and of a sufficiently serious nature to warrant the commencement of the Clause 36 is barely consistent with the 1992 Act. The complicated process. amendment is a way of resolving that and other inconsistencies. Yasmin Qureshi: Does that measure not confirm to On Second Reading, my hon. Friend the shadow the country at large that the Government are not bothered Leader of the House said: about the ordinary person’s living standards, and that “It is a Bill that the Government should be ashamed of. It is the only people they are concerned about are the rich incompetent. It is rushed. It has been developed in a high-level meeting between the Prime Minister and his deputy, but with no and powerful? other consultation. It is a sop to vested interests, an illiberal attack on democratic debate and involvement, and a cheap, Ian Murray: My hon. Friend makes the point for me, partisan and cynical misuse of the legislative process for the but it is true that the 7.2 million trade union members Government’s own ends.”—[Official Report, 3 September 2013; will be worse off as a result of the measure, because the Vol. 567, c. 199.] burden of any significant additional costs on trade The Bill is a partisan attack. Clause 36 and the rest of unions from duplicate legislation—they already conform part 3 of the Bill are completely and utterly unnecessary. through the Data Protection Act and the Trade Union The Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister forget 1005 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1006 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Murray] House. It checks that filings are made, but does not look at what is contained in those filings. There is a that the people they attack are the people who deliver limited power of investigation, but only in relation to the mail, serve in the shops, teach our children, care for administrative matters. the sick, look after the elderly, clean our streets, assemble Therefore, when I look somewhat more charitably at our cars and build our bridges. They deserve better than amendment 103, I note that it gives us the chance to to be subjected to another piece of the Tory ideological debate what the underlying role of the certification jigsaw. officer should be, and to ask what is the purpose of the records kept by unions. Given the surprising reticence Several hon. Members rose— of the Government to set out their answers in much detail to date, the amendment serves a useful purpose. The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. Before The clause 36 provisions effectively retain the status I call the next speaker, I should say that the amendments quo—that originally created via the Trade Union Act 1984 are narrowly drafted. I know that hon. Members, when and replicated in the 1992 Act. One has to look only at they take part, will not just have a general debate on the obscure clause numbering in the Bill—it proposes part 3. That is quite important. new sections 24ZA to 24ZK—to realise that it is high time properly to review the legislation and, in effect, to Mr Djanogly: I declare any interests I have in the start from scratch. debate arising from my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Essentially, the question on amendment 103 is whether Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Does we tweak the existing system for an automatic annual the hon. Gentleman not accept that trade unions are union membership auditing and inspection regime, or, one of the most highly regulated institutions in the as Labour wants, we tweak the system in much the same country—far more so than, say, political parties, which way as the Government propose but so that it comes do not have to produce the kind of information the Bill into play only if a complaint is made under the existing would require? Does he accept that that is because of rules. I support the part 3 and clause 36 proposals to aid the ideological wish, from certain people involved in the verification of union membership. The question is politics, to regulate trade unions highly? That sits ill at how far the measures should go. On listening to Opposition ease with some of the comments made regularly by Members on Second Reading, one might have thought Government Members about cutting red tape. that part 3 constituted a massive attack on union rights, or at least a vehicle for what the hon. Member for 2pm Wallasey (Ms Eagle), the shadow Leader of the House, has called “cheap” and “partisan” attacks. Mr Djanogly: I actually think the opposite. I will be upfront about this. In the previous Parliament I did a The Bill is nothing of the kind, as is immediately lot of work on regulatory issues—the Companies Act apparent when one looks through the Opposition 2006 and the Legal Services Act 2007, which was a amendments. Their proposals are mainly low-key and major piece of legislation. That work was done, for the technical, and not political. Admittedly, taken in the most part, on a consensual basis by the two sides of the round, the Labour amendments could be seen as obstructive House, and some pretty good laws were passed. My amendments that seek either to stymie the role of the point is that the trade union laws were passed in the certification officer or at least to keep him in his existing mid-1980s and are in serious need of reform and review. box, which is why they should be opposed. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The Yasmin Qureshi: Does the hon. Gentleman believe hon. Gentleman says that the law is in need of review that, when the Prime Minister said that the next big and change, but can he answer one simple question? scandal to break out in British politics would be lobbying— What is the problem that these amendments and provisions all hon. Members agreed with him—the Bill was what are seeking to address? That is not clear me. he envisaged? With all the problems and challenges the country has, does the hon. Gentleman believe that this little piece of legislation is necessary? Mr Djanogly: I answered that specifically in reply to a question put by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South Mr Djanogly: I will come to the hon. Lady’s point— (Ian Murray), the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman. I might agree to an extent with some of what she says. I have to say that one does wonder why we are missing this opportunity for reform; I am not sure. Perhaps it is Let us put the measures in context. An emergency because the Department for Business, Innovation and motion on the Bill, which was moved by Unison at the Skills is packed with Liberal Democrat Ministers. Who TUC conference, has called for an investigation of a knows? Perhaps it is the Government’s more general policy of non-co-operation with the Bill. Considering reluctance to look at legislation governing unions and the Opposition amendments, that is way over the top, industrial relations. In any event, the toothless nature of particularly in relation to the part 3 proposals. the certification officer remains, despite so much having On the other hand, despite the Labour smokescreen, changed since 1984. For example, on the membership the part 3 provisions are something of a missed opportunity register, in the mid-1980s membership records were for to reform the certification officer role, which has long the most part probably kept on paper. Official management been in need of reform. The key point is that the and database IT systems were not very developed. E-mail certification officer is not a true regulator of unions, as did not exist for everyday use and communications with it should be. Rather, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh members and voting had to be in person or by post. Of South (Ian Murray) has said, it is like Companies course, postal voting at that time was seen as a novel 1007 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1008 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill idea to be used against the intimidation of members at In the 1983 Government Green Paper, it was specifically the time of union votes—union intimidation being rife claimed that decisions made by unions could be contrary at the time. to the wishes of their members and that union leaders There is another key difference between then and often appeared not to be responsible to their members. now. Unions are, in general, becoming fewer in number, The then Government made the case that legislation but far larger and more general than in the 1980s. could limit malpractice, such as ballot rigging and forgery. Ian Lavery: The hon. Gentleman mentions union What, therefore, are we trying to do with improved intimidation. Does he want to provide some examples membership registers? Are we concerned about the of his experience of union intimidation? validity of strike ballots where key public services, such as London trains, are disrupted by a simple majority of The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. I do an overall minority of members voting? Is there concern not think we need to get into these wider areas. I repeat that ballot rigging is still going on because of poor that this is a narrow amendment and that the clause membership records? Let us remember that the certification itself is very narrow. officer has very limited powers in such situations, and that the few powers he does have can be triggered only Mr Djanogly: Unison and Unite now account for by existing union members, not by the public who are approximately 40% of total union membership. As such, unable to get to work. it follows that the larger unions are becoming increasingly powerful politically and economically, and with power Ian Lavery: The Chair said that we were perhaps comes responsibility and the duty to be accountable. We veering off the subject, but I have to come back to the can make a comparison with companies and the difference serious allegations the hon. Gentleman is making. If between how private and public companies are regulated. someone makes serious allegations in the House, they It is therefore right that union obligations to administrate should be big enough to present evidence. Where has themselves correctly, such as membership records, are there been evidence of ballot rigging in the trade union subject to a suitable level of oversight and scrutiny, and movement? The trade union movement is an extremely the clause provides for that. I note that the Labour transparent and democratic organisation. party seems to accept the number of 10,000 as appropriate for the higher level of regulation to apply. Mr Djanogly: The hon. Gentleman is clearly not listening to what I have been saying. I have not been Mr Anderson: The hon. Gentleman is being generous saying that there has been ballot rigging. In fact, in with his time. Will he answer the question I asked my some ways I think I am helping his case by saying that hon. Friend on the Front Bench? If there is such a we need to look more carefully at the purpose behind problem, why has the certification officer not raised it? the clause. This would be a good opportunity for the Has he come to the House and said, “I’m really not Government to give at least a sense of direction on happy because the unions are not staying within the part 3 about their intentions on strike balloting. Perhaps remit”? Has that been the case? I do not believe it has. that purpose is related to party funding, given that the previous part of the Bill relates to election funding. If Mr Djanogly: I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that is so, why are we not giving the certification officer that the last time I visited the certification office was the power to check that the political opt-out is clearly more than half a dozen years ago, so I am not totally up stated on the union membership application form—that on what the latest one is thinking. However, from my has clearly not always been the case—let alone going experience of looking into the matter in detail—the the further step, as suggested by the Leader of the regulations and laws have not changed—I know that Opposition no less, of reversing the position to an the certification office has very limited powers. In fact, opt-in? most people would not even see it as a regulator; rather, Despite the Opposition’s position being muddied as I said, it is more like a Companies House collection following the Leader of the Opposition’s speech at this box than anything else. week’s TUC conference, why are the Opposition not taking this opportunity to amend the Bill to that effect? Andrew Gwynne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman This is a pressing issue, not least because the majority of for giving way; he is being very generous. Regarding his union members do not even vote for the Labour party. involvement with the certification officer, albeit several Even if such reform needs more time to be formulated, years ago, does he have any evidence that the current why cannot the Government indicate their intentions membership figures for trade unions are incorrect and for party funding as a result of improved membership therefore require the change in law that is being suggested? records? The clause deals specifically with auditing membership Mr Djanogly: That is not an issue I have investigated. numbers, but what about overseeing matters in the As I said, complaints emanate from members of unions, context of the return as a whole, let alone dealing with not from people outside unions, and I think that that is issues of client care or quality of service? The provisions the wrong way to be going about such an issue. do not even tighten up the definition of what membership Let us step back and look at the clause in the round. means, which would be helpful, if that is what is to be There is a fundamental question which, to be fair, was audited. picked up by the Opposition on Second Reading and the hon. Member for Edinburgh South today, and it is Ian Murray: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for implied by amendment 103: we need better clarification giving way. He is reeling off a list of potential obligations from the Government on the intention of these clauses. on a trade union with regard to its members. Does he 1009 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1010 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Murray] Yasmin Qureshi: The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), like others, will be aware from when he not think that if a trade union was not compliant with did his law degree—as I am from when I did mine—that obligations under customer service and so on, the member there are three golden principles running through our would just simply leave? judicial system that come into play when judges interpret legislation. The first is the mischief rule, which asks Mr Djanogly: Let me give the hon. Gentleman an what mischief the law was introduced to deal with; the example. If we are to have the provision to audit members, second is the golden rule, which means generously we should know what “member” means. This is a interpreting a piece of legislation; and the third is the fundamental omission, as was shown with the miners’ literal rule, which means interpreting it literally. That is compensation scheme. where I would like to start with the amendment and In that situation, certain unions created a new class of these provisions. “associate membership”, with no rights other than the I hope you will forgive me, Sir Edward, if I digress a right for the claimants to be referred to the union-picked little—I will not take up too much time—but we were no win, no fee lawyers, from whom the unions then told that the reason for introducing a lobbying Bill was took a kickback commission. The scam was uncovered that there was a significant problem with lobbying in and the lawyers were heavily penalised by their regulators. this country. Everyone was talking about the next scandal However, not— being lobbying, but we were in fact talking about, for example, somebody being paid—a Member of Parliament, The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. I say, or somebody else—to ask questions that are not have given the hon. Gentleman some leeway, but if he within the rules. We were also talking about people who looks—as I know he has: he is a very skilful Member—he have access to Ministers and are able to campaign and will see that this is a narrowly drafted clause. Will he lobby for private companies—for example, Lynton Crosby please now restrict himself to the amendments and the and people like that. What we were talking about was duty to provide membership audit certificates, and not money changing hands and others not knowing what give a long history of the trade union movement? was happening. That was what was meant by the scandalous part of lobbying. As a Member of Parliament, I should not be asking questions in the House or raising issues Mr Djanogly: Thank you for that clarification, because somebody is sponsoring me or giving me money Sir Edward. to line someone else’s pockets, make a company richer The point of amendment 103 is to ask the purpose of or help it to secure a contract that it should perhaps the clause, and that is right. If the purpose is to deal not have. with auditing members, perhaps we should be talking about what constitutes a member and what is to be “Lobbying” refers to those types of situation; sadly, audited. Would it include the associated membership this Bill does not really deal with any of them. Part 1, that we saw in the miners compensation scheme, for which deals with consultant lobbyists, catches only about instance? Should the audit include a description of their 1% of those concerned—it would not catch people like rights as members? Alternatively, do we want to know Lynton Crosby. Part 2 deals with charities and voluntary accurately the number of members, so that this can be organisations. If somebody from a cancer charity comes tied to union political contributions? If so, the Bill to speak to me about— might not be as effective as some people think. That is because trade unions have not necessarily been affiliating 2.15 pm the same number of members as have been contributing to the political fund. They may affiliate phantom members The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. The in order to get more union votes on Labour party hon. Lady is introducing her speech. I give a certain matters. I am unsure what effect auditing membership latitude, but I know that, as a skilful Member, she will numbers would have in that situation, other than to soon get on to audit certification. verify how bizarre Labour’s relationship with the unions can be. Again, however, a sense of direction for future Yasmin Qureshi: I will move on swiftly, Sir Edward. reform from the Government would be helpful. Let me return to the trade union aspect. The provisions I support this legislation, because I can see nothing to in this Bill have been designed just to cause more object to in principle—it basically just repeats and bureaucratic headaches for trade unions. All they mean fortifies what has been around since the 1980s. I hope is that trade unions will have to spend more of their that hon. Members do not take what I have said as members’ money—let us remember that these are the anti-union, because I am not anti-union. However, I 7.2 million ordinary working people, as my hon. Friend strongly believe that union law is way behind the times the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) pointed and desperately in need of reform. Can anyone really out, who are members of trade unions and pay their argue that legislation and procedural regulations passed subs. The Bill would mean that trade unions had to in the mid 1980s are still adequate now? Although I spend more money on trying to comply with the system. disagree with Labour’s amendment 103, I appreciate its Surely that cannot be right. Trying to put that provision wider implication of showing up the lack of Government in legislation dealing with lobbying as a whole is completely purpose and direction behind these provisions. Given wrong. It is unfair. What is the mischief that the the time the coalition Government have had to formulate Government are trying to deal with? The mischief is big policy on these key issues, which have a significant money and corporate enterprises, yet this legislation impact on the people of this country, we could and does nothing to address such lobbying. All it does is should be doing much better. This is a missed opportunity impose a financial burden on unions that rely solely on to reform industrial relations law. subs from their members. 1011 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1012 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill The Government are often accused of being out of were very low, given the work that people had to do. touch and only looking after the rich and powerful. Wages have gone up over the years, but even now it is Surely it is about time they sent out the message that impossible for most people to survive on the minimum actually they do care about the ordinary person and are wage. The unions are therefore campaigning for a living perturbed that their living standards and wages are wage. What is wrong with that? I am proud of the going down. The Prime Minister was not willing to Labour party’s links with the trade unions, and of the acknowledge those issues at Prime Minister’s questions. fact that we are actively involved with them. At the end The issue of living conditions was put to him time and of the day, trade unions represent ordinary working again, and he was asked about the living wage, yet he people. As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh refused to answer or to acknowledge the fact that South said earlier, these are the people who cook and people’s living standards have gone down. We are talking serve the food, who work in shops and who clean our about the same people who have to pay their trade streets, our offices and our toilets. They do the worst union subs out of their own pay packets. And before possible jobs. They also work in the NHS and the anyone says, “Why are they giving the trade unions education system. their hard-earned money?”, I will tell them the reason. In the workplace, the only person a worker can rely on if Mr McKenzie: Does my hon. Friend agree that the things get hard is their trade union representative. reason for including clause 36 in the Bill is completely transparent? It is clear from the contributions from Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): Having those on the Government Benches that its purpose is to left school at 15 and been a member of the Union of use up union resources, union time and union funds. It Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, before going on is a veiled attack on the trade unions. to found two businesses, I can tell the hon. Lady that small businesses always need to look after their employees, because they rely on them so heavily. If a business gets a Yasmin Qureshi rose— good employee, it needs to keep hold of them, so there is a lot more care in the workplace than she is suggesting. The Temporary Chairman (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. Would she accept that? Before the hon. Lady replies to that point, may I suggest that she will want to return to the subject of audit Yasmin Qureshi: I accept that there are many responsible certification? employers, small as well as large, but the hon. Gentleman will know that many are not responsible. He must also Yasmin Qureshi: I will come to that, Sir Edward. The know that there are workplace situations where people need for certification will cause financial harm to have problems, and we cannot take away from that. For the unions, and we do not need it. It will not deal with most people, the reason they give their hard-earned the mischief that the legislation on lobbying was supposed money to the trade union movement—it is not compulsory: to address. All it will do is impose an unfair financial nobody in the workplace has to be a member if they do burden on the trade unions, which rely on the subscriptions not want to—is that if there is a problem in the workplace, of ordinary members. they will have someone to go to. We know from our country’s history that, over the years, issues of sex Derisory comments are constantly being made about discrimination, equality legislation, and health and safety the trade unions, but it is important to remind ourselves have often been dealt with by members going to their what they are arguing for. I get letters from unions trade unions. lobbying me. For example, the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers contacted me when there was talk of Sunday working during the Olympics. I also get Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is coming to the letters from trade unions about pension rights, maternity nub of some of the concerns about the provisions we rights, the minimum wage, health and safety, living are debating. Some of the information now being sought conditions and better terms and conditions. What is is sensitive, personal information, and in some of the there to be ashamed of about those things? What is workplace situations that she is describing, there is a wrong with a body arguing for those things? concern—perceived or, in some cases, actual—about people being victimised because of their association Why are Conservative Members always having a go with trade unions or, worse still, blacklisted. at the unions? They make it sound as though the unions are some kind of sinister organisations, but they are Yasmin Qureshi: I completely agree with what my not. They are full of ordinary working people, and they hon. Friend says about blacklisting and intimidation. have always fought for working people’s rights. The Conservatives should be championing the trade unions, When people have a problem, they go to their trade rather than making derisory remarks about them and union because that is the only body in the workplace insulting them in the Chamber. This legislation is a that can assist them. Let us remember some of the clear example of their vindictive attitude towards the issues that the trade unions have been arguing for over trade unions. The unions do not have a lot of money in the years. Conservative Members constantly heap abuse the first place, but what they have will now be wasted on on the unions—they talk about Unite and the other this unnecessary bureaucratic burden. The obligation unions—but let me remind the Committee of some of that the Government are proposing will not deal with the things the unions have campaigned for throughout the mischief that the lobbying Bill is trying to deal with. their history. That mischief relates to big business, to sinister deals The trade unions campaigned for proper wages. What and to cash being passed in underhand ways. That is is wrong with that? What is criminal or immoral about what we are trying to deal with, but the Bill categorically that? When the industrial revolution started, wage levels fails on every single level. 1013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1014 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Yasmin Qureshi] The perception of clause 36 is that it is a massive attack on the trade union movement, but that is not its This last part of the Bill illustrates the Government’s purpose. pure vindictiveness, and it has no purpose. We should all reject it. All Members of Parliament should vote Katy Clark: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that against this legislation, and particularly against part 3. we are one of the only European countries that does not If Members really care about working people, as they have a right to strike. Clause 36 comes on top of a all say they do, they should not allow this additional whole range of other pieces of trade union legislation, and unnecessary burden to be imposed on the trade much of which has been designed to be used in the unions. It will not deal with the mischief that the Bill courts by employers trying to get injunctions to stop was supposed to address. strike action. Often, when those cases come before a full court, the employers are unsuccessful, even though they Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): It is a real might have been successful in getting the strike stopped pleasure to follow the impassioned speech of the hon. at the initial stage. Does the hon. Gentleman think that Member for Bolton South East (YasminQureshi), although this clause has been designed to create yet another I must point out that no one has a monopoly on caring hurdle for the trade unions to get over before they can about working people. I shall to confine my remarks to take lawful industrial action? clause 36. I have discovered over the past three days that I am Stephen McPartland: The short answer is no. Clause 36 probably one of the most optimistic Members of the introduces a duty to provide a membership audit certificate. House, because I believe that the purposes of the Bill I genuinely cannot imagine that many of the unions will are very different from those suggested in some of the be bothered by it. The reality is that they all want to narratives that we have been hearing. Clause 36 introduces know where their members are so that they can a clear duty to provide a membership audit certificate. communicate with them. Most unions do not send I note with interest that if a union has fewer than letters out to their members simply asking them to take 10,000 members, it can self-certify. Only unions with strike action. They also want to sell them services and more than that number will need to certify. to make the union a part of their lives. I appreciate that there has been a certain amount of jolliness in the Chamber— Ian Murray: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I shall pass a membership form to him Ian Murray: Jolliness? before the end of the debate. Amendment 103 allows for clause 36 to be implemented. All it does is give the Stephen McPartland: Some Members have been teasing certification officer the power to take out vexatious the Conservative party about its refusal to publish its claims and to decide whether the draconian and expensive membership figures. Clause 36 clearly states that unions measures in the rest of the Bill should be enacted. with fewer than 10,000 members can self-certify. However, a Conservative party association with more than a 2.30 pm certain amount of money will have to send its information to the Electoral Commission. That information will Stephen McPartland: The hon. Gentleman makes a include membership numbers, but if they are below a good point. Local councils around the country have to certain level, there will be no need to send it. This part confront a number of issues with vexatious claims and of the Bill therefore contains very similar provisions to are currently struggling under the freedom of information those that are already in place for members of political rules introduced by the previous Government. It may parties, as well as trade unions. well be an issue that needs to be looked at further. It is a law of unintended consequences, however, and if there It has been suggested that no complaints have been have been only six complaints in the last 10 years, I made under the present arrangements for a number of cannot imagine that there would have been many vexatious years. My hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon claims. (Mr Djanogly) mentioned the possibility that people who were not union members were unable to make a In most small workplace environments, a large proportion complaint at the moment. I stand here as a friend of the of the employees are not union members. If they are, unions. I am happy to work with them, and I am proud they are often members of a variety of different unions. of the union members who come to see me, whether as Most of those employees do not want to cross a picket union members or members of local communities or line and have no intention of doing so. That can be a organisations. A number of members of my family are real emotional struggle for them; I saw that a lot when I members of unions. I am also happy to work with the was growing up in Liverpool. If a person is being called national unions on a range of issues— out on strike by union members in the area but does not want to strike, I think it is perfectly acceptable for such Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): Are you a union an employee who is not a union member to be expected member? not to cross the picket line. However, it is perfectly acceptable for them to question whether the ballot was Stephen McPartland: I am not actually a member of accurate. There is personal and social pressure put on trade union, and I never have been. [Interruption.] people and it is understandable. Hon. Members are tempting me to stray from the point. Within a few weeks, however, there will no doubt be an Mr Anderson: The person that the hon. Gentleman is announcement and I will be working closely with one of talking about has that right now. There is no point in the national unions, and I might well join it as a result this legislation, because the provisions are already in of the work that we do together. place: the individual can already do exactly what the 1015 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1016 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill hon. Gentleman says. Legislation was deliberately set increasing casualisation of the work force, it is possible up that way by Governments in the 1980s to undermine for unions to lose as much as 12% of their membership the ability of unions to take industrial action. It is during the course of a year, so they will have to recruit already law; we do not need this new law. 12% just to stand still. Under those circumstances, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman can imagine, keeping Stephen McPartland: The hon. Gentleman makes a bang-up-to-date records is extremely difficult. powerful intervention. I grew up in Liverpool in the 1980s and I remember a great deal of industrial action. Stephen McPartland: I completely agree with the I survived. My hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon hon. Gentleman. The biggest challenge those unions said that the purpose of the legislation is to take things face—it is perhaps a reason why the Bill might help back to the 1980s so that that exists as the status quo them focus more resources on the issue—is simply the now. I am not particularly interested in the ideological fact that people move home. It is not a matter of losing arguments going back and forth across the Committee. members of the trade union movement; it is simply a I genuinely believe that the purpose of clause 36 is to matter of trade unionists moving house between different help people who feel that they want to make a complaint areas. That creates a massive turnover. We all have but cannot. I heard the shadow Minister talk earlier experience of moving house and know we have to pay from the Dispatch Box about the possibility of a charge the Royal Mail a fee to redirect our mail for a year. of £1 or £2 being exercised in respect of clause 36. I Moving home is a big issue; it is one of the key problems imagine that most trade unions would hate that because surrounding the clause. Clause 36 encourages the focusing it would probably cost more to administer the charge of more union resources on tackling the problems of than it would to send off the certificate. membership turnover. The basic purpose of clause 36 boils down to transparency; it innocently says that trade unions need Katy Clark: Has the hon. Gentleman had an opportunity to know where their members are. There is a massive to look at how much this will cost the trade unions? reality gap here. We all know from the electoral register, Does he know how much they will have to spend on this which we deal with every single year in all our walks exercise? of life, that the number of people moving in and out of constituencies when they move home is huge. Stephen McPartland: The hon. Lady will be delighted to know that I read the impact assessment, so I understand Ian Lavery: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the that it will cost approximately 6p per member, which points he is raising are already covered by the Trade does not seem to be exorbitant. [Interruption.] Iam Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992? sure we can argue about that when we get to a different Everything that he is talking about is already covered. part of the Bill, but I am going to keep my remarks focused on clause 36 as our Chairman would like—namely, Stephen McPartland: I am delighted that hon. Members the duty to provide a membership audit certificate. I believe that everything I have said is already covered by keep repeating the point that clause 36 deals with a duty various legislation. I am even more pleased that they are to provide a membership audit certificate. I do not see not objecting to what I have said. what the problem is with providing such a certificate. I cannot imagine why the unions would object to it. Yasmin Qureshi: The hon. Gentleman referred to the ’80s, but there has been a great deal of trade union law Mr McKenzie: The hon. Gentleman is most gracious since that time that deals with all the issues that he has in taking interventions. He said that he agreed that raised. He should take it from me that the particular legislation might already be in place to deal with the provision we are debating does not deal with any of the problem. His argument was to ask why we should vote matters with which he was concerned; as I say, the laws against the provisions if they are already in place, but governing that already exist. why would he vote for duplication?

Stephen McPartland: I am delighted to hear that hon. Stephen McPartland: I am not voting for duplication. Members believe that the issues I am raising have I am going to vote for this part of the Bill. I am being already been dealt with. That is fantastic news. However, informed that legislation is already in place, but I was if those issues are already dealt with, I see no reason for probably at school at that time. I would love to accept people to be arguing that there is no reason for this part what the hon. Gentleman and Opposition Members of the Bill; I see no reason to be against it. There seems say, but I am not able to trust them. That is why I am to be a lot of anger being expressed. going to vote for this part of the Bill. It is nothing Not all Government Members have an issue with personal. It is just that there has been a lot of discussion trade unions or trade unionists. Whenever anybody going back and forth across the Committee, but I like to mentions the words “trade union”, it seems as if we vote on the facts, and the facts before me today relate to have to have an ideological argument between the two this part of Bill. sides of the House. I do not agree with that. We should I am sure that the Chairman will be grateful to know look at the facts, and the facts relating to clause 36 are that I am about to bring my remarks to a close. We very simple: there is a duty to provide a membership should try to reduce some of the rhetoric. This is not an audit certificate if a union has more than 10,000 members; ideological argument and the provisions are not a massive otherwise people can self-certify. attack on the trade union movement—nobody wants to see that. Trade union members are fantastic members of John Cryer: There is a genuine point—he may or may our society, and the trade unions have been a fantastic not have taken it on board—about the big general vehicle for societal change throughout the ages. I am unions. Because of the changing nature of work and the happy to work with them on a variety of occasions— 1017 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1018 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Stephen McPartland] Another point has emerged as well, and it constitutes a direct challenge to Ministers. The front of the Bill working alongside them, for example, at charity events bears the following declaration from the Leader of the in my constituency or when the national unions work House: on issues that are important to their members such as “In my view the provisions of the Transparency of Lobbying, fair pay, tax transparency or a range of other issues. Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill are compatible with the Convention rights.” John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): It is Members of Parliament and legal experts outside pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stevenage (Stephen the House have rightly asked whether article 8 of the McPartland). He declared himself an optimist about convention, in particular, is not confounded by the the purposes of this part of the Bill and clause 36 in provisions of clause 36. The clause gives the certification particular. The problem with the Bill, as well as with officer, or any investigator whom he may appoint, sweeping this particular provision, is the gap between the declared powers of access to very personal individual information purposes and the provisions themselves. In clause 36, about trade union members, which could potentially the problem is that the purposes are not clear at all. contravene article 8 and the right to privacy. As I think the Committee will appreciate, union members are rightly In its confused content and its incompetent and concerned and sensitive about the issue, given the recent chaotic handling, this whole Bill reminds me of a previous history of blacklisting and discrimination on the basis piece of legislation that the Leader of the House of trade union membership or activity. What I should introduced—the Health and Social Care Bill. I led the like the Minister to do when he responds to the debate— opposition to that Bill. It was a Bill without allies and with a remarkable range of critics that saw Lord Tebbit The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom and the trade unions finding common ground. The Brake): She. Leader of House, when he was Health Secretary, was forced to pause, review and reflect upon that Bill. The John Healey: What I should like the Minister to do same problems with this Bill surely call for the same when she responds to the debate is give the Committee a solution. commitment that she will publish, or place in the Library Let me now deal specifically with clause 36 and the of the House, the legal advice on which the Leader of amendments. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham the House’s statement on the front of the Bill is based, North (Mr Allen), the Chair of the Political and so that we can lay that concern to rest. Constitutional Reform Committee, told us that his Let me now turn to the point made by my hon. Committee had considered the White Paper, the forerunner Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew of the Bill, and that there had been no mention of Gwynne). In his excellent speech, my hon. Friend the part 3 or of trade unions. He said that, according to his Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) asked what calculations, this part of the Bill—including clause 36—had was the problem with which clause 36, and part 3 as a been published the day before the summer recess, eight whole, had been designed to deal. Even the hon. Member working days before we were required to consider it in for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) rightly asked the same Committee today, and he rightly pointed out that the question, albeit in different terms. He asked what intention task of scrutinising these provisions would therefore was behind the provisions in clause 36. Our debate so fall to the other House. far has clearly shown that there is no evidence of a I am not prepared to accept that, and the Committee problem, that there is no public call for these changes, should not be prepared to accept it either. It is part of and that there is no principled case for them. We can our duty in a Committee stage such as this to exercise only conclude that the intention, or the purpose, of scrutiny in the House of Commons, but we have been the clause is to tighten the legislative leash on trade unable to do so. We have been unable to do so because of unions and their ability to take proper, lawful industrial the time scale, because of the lack of any wider consultation, action. and indeed, as we have heard this afternoon, because of the Government’s failure to provide the Committee 2.45 pm even with some of the most basic documentation before asking it to consider the Bill. Such a degree of I must inform Ministers that last year industrial confusion and incompetence on the part of Ministers action was at an almost record low. The level was very is unacceptable. low throughout the 13 Labour years, but last year it was only a quarter of the level that it was in 1996, the last year of the last Tory Government. In other words, four Andrew Gwynne: I entirely agree with my right hon. times more days were lost through industrial action in Friend’s critique of the legislation and, in particular, 1996 than was the case last year. Wide-scale industrial with what he is saying about clause 36, but is not the action is not a problem in this country, and for that position even worse than he is suggesting? The Government reason any case that might honestly be built and presented have failed to explain to the House why the changes are on the basis of industrial action would clearly be flawed. necessary in the first place. We have not got a clue what My hon. Friends who are members, and active members, problem they are trying to solve. of trade unions would certainly agree with that.

John Healey: I shall respond to my hon. Friend’s Mr Binley: I am slightly confused by the right hon. intervention in a moment. I want my speech to reflect Gentleman’s remarks, given what we have heard from what has been said in the debate so far, and the point many leading trade unionists about the possibility of that he has made has already begun to emerge during strikes over the next six months. Does he not recognise our discussion of clause 36 and the amendments. that that poses a sizeable danger to the country’s economy, 1019 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1020 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill or is he telling me that the strikes will not happen have not supplied a purpose for these provisions, and because what the trade union leaders are saying is a have not supplied any reason for this unreasonable sham? tightening of the legislation.

The Temporary Chairman (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. John Cryer: My right hon. Friend talked about legal I hope the right hon. Member for Wentworth and action being taken against trade unions. The other Dearne (John Healey) will not stray too far down that problem is that an employer has six years in which to road, and will return to the subject of the clause and take that legal action. I can remember dealing with amendments. He has performed very skilfully so far. cases where a legal firm said, “Let the ballot and industrial action go ahead because we then have six years John Healey: Indeed so, Sir Edward. during which, at any point, we can take legal action As a former member of the Union of Shop, Distributive against the union.” and Allied Workers, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the steps, linked to the clause, that any union needs John Healey: My hon. Friend has more experience in to take before contemplating industrial action are already this area than I have, and he is right to point that out, highly complex. They are legally specified, and they set and he might have gone on to say, “And what a stark a number of very high hurdles for any group of trade disparity with the legal requirements on trade unions to union members who wish to consider industrial action. take any industrial action they may have balloted upon As for his general point, it is often the determination of within days, not years, and then to give further fresh union members to take industrial action if necessary, notice to the employer before the start of that industrial and as a last resort, that causes employers to see sense, action.” The legislation is already hugely unbalanced negotiate properly and, in many cases, solve the problems and is, as the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) at hand. argued, ripe for reform—although I think he and I would Let me sum up the position. The number of days lost disagree on the nature of the reform that is required. to strike action is at a near all-time low. Industrial The Opposition’s arguments against this clause and action is always a last resort. The series of legislative my particular objections are clear, and our amendments steps that any group of trade union members must take highlight them. Regardless of what the Government are before engaging in lawful industrial action are already prepared to say about its purpose now, it is designed to highly complex, lengthy and tightly specified in law, but tighten the current legislation binding trade unions. It is clause 36 will make that specification much tighter, and designed to make it more difficult for trade unions to will make it much more difficult for unions to take such take proper legal, legitimate industrial action and in action. As my hon. Friend the Member for North particular for members facing problems in their workplace Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) pointed out, there is to stand up to an employer as a last resort and say, no legal right to strike in this country, and any industrial “You’re treating us in such an unfair, discriminatory action lays a trade union open to being sued for inducing and unacceptable way that we are prepared to take and encouraging members to breach their employment industrial action as a last resort.” If we allow this contracts. It is only the immunity from being sued, provision and this part of the Bill to proceed unamended which comes from following all the steps specified in it will become much more difficult for ordinary people existing legislation, that will be made more difficult by as union members in the workplace to stand up for the provisions in clause 36. themselves through their union against their employer. Too often in recent years, employers—not just large employers such as Balfour Beatty, Serco and London Midland—instead of dealing with the grievance at hand, Mr McKenzie: I will restrict my remarks to clause 36 and instead of consulting, negotiating and discussing and to supporting our amendments. As we have heard the problems that they face with their own employees over the past few days, this is a bad Bill and it would be and dealing with the dispute, have looked for legal poor legislation. Part 3 and clause 36 have clearly been ground to try to prevent any industrial action through ill thought out and ill conceived by the Government—but the law courts. The duty in clause 36 to provide the they have clearly thought through what they want to membership audits and certificates, and the potential achieve. These measures would achieve their goals, but, investigations on the back of any complaints under the unfortunately, they are not the goals a lobbying Bill auspices of the certification officer, are likely to make it should set out to achieve. much easier for employers to find legal grounds and to To compound things, this Bill is being rushed through take legal action to prevent union members from taking Parliament at a speed that would make Usain Bolt proper, legitimate industrial action. Clause 36 will create envious. Opposition Members repeatedly ask, “Why the a mountain of data and paperwork which will be at the hurry? Why can’t we take a bit of time to scrutinise this fingertips of employers well in advance of any particular Bill and get it right?” There has been no consultation on risk of industrial action or dispute. the Bill either, which has been highlighted.

Yasmin Qureshi: Is that not exactly what the Government Mr Anderson: My hon. Friend asks, “Why the hurry?” intend, so that, apart from causing financial difficulties, Does he agree that it is because the Government hope this Bill can be used by employers to hit out at employees? to get this Bill on to the statute book so that for 12 months from 8 May next year lobbying groups and John Healey: I think my hon. Friend is right, but our trade unions will find that their hands are tied in problem is that we are having to intuit the intention criticising the Government’s record and reminding the behind these provisions and this clause because the people of this country what a dire mess they have got Government have not supplied evidence of a problem, them into? They are trying to hide that from the public. 1021 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1022 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Mr McKenzie: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. These proposals will mean significant additional This Bill and clause 36 have come under sustained bureaucracy for unions. We have heard about the costs criticism from just about everyone except those on the of that, and they will escalate considerably for an Government Benches. This part of the Bill has led to organisation with 1 million or more members. The my inbox being filled—and, I am sure, other Members’ Government’s intentions are transparent. As we have inboxes, too. The messages I have received have come heard from Government Members, they want to tie the not only from trade union activists, but from people hands of the trade unions. They want to put a ball and throughout my constituency who are concerned about chain around the train unions’ ankles and to hamper what this Bill, and this part of it in particular, will mean their activities. This comes from a Government who for them. said they wanted to cut red tape, and yet here they are This part of the Bill seeks to change the legal imposing it on others. requirements in relation to trade unions’ obligations to I have not heard any general objection from the TUC keep their lists of members up to date, as if it would to unions being able to provide regular membership somehow be of benefit to unions not to keep their figures to the certification officer. The hon. Member for membership records up to date. Trade unions continually Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who has now left the Chamber, communicate with their members, as I know as a trade suggested that the certification officer is toothless, when unionist myself; I continually receive mailings from my it has been some six years since he visited the certification trade union. They clearly know who their members are officer and he was unable to give any idea as to how and how to contact them, therefore, so the claims made many times the certification officer had been challenged by Government Members that their records might be for lack of action or for being toothless. After all, we incorrect or they might have phantom members are know that the trade unions supply membership lists to beyond belief. ACAS, especially when triggering recognition of a ballot in the workplace. I have often found out that the reluctance There are concerns about membership data and security to hand over accurate lists comes from the employers; and the possibility of the blacklisting of trade union they have refused to supply ACAS with lists of their members. There are data protection issues, therefore, employees to match things up with the trade unions so and what about people’s right to privacy? In the 1980s I that they could verify that they indeed had the membership was employed in the private sector and my employer at numbers to trigger a ballot. Trade unions have never that time would have been delighted to get its hands on held back their membership lists; they are happy to give a list of the trade union members among its employees. them over, but only if they have privacy for their members Instead, it had to put feelers out and, believe it or not, and the assurance that the lists will not be handed over. engage people to take photographs. ACAS, of course, gives them that assurance.

Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): In some 3pm cases where employers are not the best employers, these These changes will affect the 149 trade unions, of provisions will leave trade union members very vulnerable, which, as we know, only about 16 are affiliated to the and certainly more vulnerable than they are now. Labour party. The changes are clearly uncalled for and, as I have said, they are designed to hamper the unions Mr McKenzie: My hon. Friend is right; that would be and tie them up with red tape, which the Government a consequence of this Bill. In the past, unscrupulous have consistently said they want to get rid of. They employers would go to any lengths to find out which of came into power saying that they would eliminate as their employees were trade union members. I recall much red tape as possible. being photographed entering trade union meetings by The Government are not using the Bill to tackle the my employer. It would have saved a great deal of money real problems of lobbying. Just about every member of if it had been able to get its hands on these lists. the British public is asking what problem this part of “Reveal your membership,” the unions are told, on the Bill is designed to tackle, and Labour Members have the basis of demanding accuracy. repeatedly asked that question. We are unable to discern the problem that this part is meant to remedy in its Dr Francis: I have made this point previously, but I entirety. As we have heard, unions already have a statutory want to make it again in the context of what my hon. duty to maintain a register of members’ names and Friend is saying. The Deputy Leader of the House has addresses so far as is reasonably practicable. Many been seen denying this from a sedentary position, but members move house or pass away. The lists are as yesterday he did not adequately respond to a question I accurate as membership lists can be, as the trade unions asked about the Government’s failure to produce a do update them. No membership organisation of any human rights memorandum on this Bill. If they had size can ever have a perfect membership list, as such a produced one, they would have had to address this list will contain errors. It is up to the individual members fundamental question of privacy. to make the union aware of changes. How often have we not passed on a change of address, getting around to doing so only later? Mr McKenzie: My hon. Friend makes a very pertinent point on the privacy issue. It seems that those on the Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is making an incredibly Government Benches might somehow be surprised to compelling speech about the deficiencies of clause 36 learn that there are still employers who do not welcome and he is right to do so, because the Trade Union and trade union membership or activity among their employees, Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 states clearly and they would be delighted to have these records at that the onus is on the member to tell the trade union hand. As we have heard, the Conservatives will not that they have changed address. If the member does not reveal how many members they have. tell the union that, the membership list is therefore deficient. 1023 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1024 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Mr McKenzie: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. business and being active trade unionists? It is an attack Recent revelations about blacklisting and everything on ordinary working people standing up for their rights that is happening in that respect are a worry to many in the workplace. trade union members, who would see these membership lists as being available to be passed around with ease, John McDonnell: That is exactly what it is. I am with all the consequences that that entails. I think that speaking on the clause standing part, as well as to the the entire House is united in condemning blacklisting, amendment, Sir Edward, because we have to understand so why are we being asked to assist the ease by which what this clause means. I cannot, for the life of me, information can be gathered to continue the practice of interpret it other than in the way my hon. Friend has blacklisting? If hon. Members had seen the trawls that just done. It is an attack specifically on the role of trade the people who compile these lists go through, they unionists and their rights to fulfil their responsibilities. would realise that we are making it very easy to put a We have seen the operation of challenges to membership list together, pass it on and make money out of branding lists in respect of industrial relations and, in particular, other people as “trade union activists” and so on. I ask of industrial action being taken and determined by the Government to reconsider this part of the Bill and members. The history is that the employers have used to adopt our amendments. the existing legislation and interpreted it so that any minor discrepancy about a membership list is used in a John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I rush to court to seek an injunction to prevent industrial think we misinterpreted the hon. Member for Huntingdon action from taking place. Some examples have been (Mr Djanogly), because what he said was extremely given, but I have been involved in a number of activities supportive. He went to what my hon. Friend the Member associated with trade unions where even though there for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) described as the has been a 99% overwhelming decision in favour of crux of the Bill, asking why it is here. The hon. Gentleman industrial action, one or two members out of thousands was asking his own Front Benchers, “What the hell are have been missed off the ballot and so an injunction has we doing?” As my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde been awarded. Therefore, the industrial action, along (Mr McKenzie) and others have asked, what mischief with the will of the members, has been prevented from does this part of the Bill seek to address? I really tried to being implemented. We tried to overcome that through find out what the Government’s thinking is, so I looked legislation in this House—I tried to put such legislation at what they said in the consultation paper, which was through on three occasions, but it got talked out every published in July. The first reason they put forward for time—but we have just overcome it in the courts. this move was as follows: We have received a decision in the courts that enables “As membership organisations, it is important that trade union minor infringements not to be taken into account and decisions reflect the will of all their members.” the decision of the overall will of the members to be acceded to. If that is the case, does it mean that we are now going to legislate in respect of all membership organisations? However, the Bill opens up a whole new vista of Sir Edward, you are a member of the Roman Catholic potential legal challenges. As colleagues have said, it Church and if we are going to do that, we might well relates not only to industrial action, industrial activity, introduce legislation to see whether the Catholic Church ballots and so on; it could relate to the whole operation is following the laity’s views. of the union. Employers could trawl over membership Why does this provision apply to trade unions alone? lists, go off to the certification officer and then we could Next, the Government identify trade unions for this get to court, where the challenge will be about how the special legislation because: union operates overall. So lawyers will be able to tie up trade unions in legal actions for years to come, preventing “Trade union activity has the potential to affect the daily lives them from undertaking what the impact study calls of members”. their “core” trade union work of representing members. With the greatest respect, so too does the activity of the I ask Government Members: what is the motivation Roman Catholic Church, the CBI and the Institute of for this measure? Some of that has leaked out. They Directors. So why are we focusing on this particular have listened to what has happened in recent months—the membership organisation? As has been said, the reason anger there is among working people about the cuts to is that this legislation is really about trying to impede their wages, the zero-hour contracts and the undermining the operations of the trade unions in this country. of employment rights. People are beginning to react. Government Members might argue that this measure They do not usually react at the depths of a recession, has minimum cost and minimum imposition of roles doing so when they are coming out of one and when and responsibilities on trade unions. The impact study their living standards of some are rising. So we are makes an assessment that there will be only 6p of talking about a recovery for the rich but a recession for additional cost, although that is still 6p. However, it the rest. That is when people get angry and when also says, straightforwardly, that the risks are that this industrial action takes place—that is when strikes happen. will displace core trade union work. It will do that; It is also when trade unions need to be representing trade unions will have to devote their time and energies their members. So I think this measure is part and to this and it will therefore displace their core trade parcel of the Government preparing for the potential union work of representing their members. So it is for industrial activity over this coming period. It is about impeding the real role of trade unions. another mechanism by which they will do everything they possibly can to undermine the rights of trade Julie Elliott: Does my hon. Friend agree that this part unions and their ability to operate effectively in representing of the Bill is unnecessary legislation and that it is just an their members. It is so short term, because all it will do attack on trade union members going about their daily is anger people even more and as these impediments 1025 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1026 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [John McDonnell] condemned for its attack on trade union rights, which are incorporated in all those international statutes and build up, although they are relatively minor at first, conventions as a basic human right. people will become more angry. Then, we will have In summary, that is why I oppose clause stand part wildcat action—action that is uncontrolled—because and support the moderate, pragmatic amendment. If people are so furious at how they are being treated by we reach that stage in our consideration of the Bill, their employers in collusion with the Government. I will discuss the amendments I have proposed, which Let me make one final point, because I want to basically say that if the Government want the legislation— understand. If the argument is that the clause is about which we do not support—to go forward, they should ensuring that membership organisations are open, at have some form of trigger, such as a complaint or transparent and accurately reflect their members’ views, concern that has been raised and assessed. If there has and if it is about organisations that have an impact on been a complaint and there needs to be further action, the general life of our society, why does it not refer to fair enough. That is not the case at the moment and I the CBI, the Institute of Directors and all the other think that this is just biased prejudice against trade trade associations? They are membership organisations unions and trade unionism overall. and they have as much of an effect on the daily lives of John Cryer: First, let me say what a compelling our population as trade unions, yet they remain completely speech my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and unregulated. That portrays to me the in-built bias of Harlington (John McDonnell) just made. He made this Government against trade unionism and working some strong points—this is about the evisceration of people. That is why we must vote against clause stand part. the industrial and political opposition over the next few The amendment is moderate, and simply says that if months because the Government can see some serious the certification officer identifies a problem we should problems on the horizon emanating from the policies implement the provision—I have similar amendments they are pursuing. They want to neutralise any resistance on the implementation of the Bill, which we probably to those policies and their consequences through the will not reach. That is all my hon. Friend the Member Bill and other measures. for Edinburgh South is saying: if there is a grievance or I have a series of questions on this clause that I would a problem let us by all means have some action, but not like the Minister to deal with. My first question has unless a problem is identified. That is a relatively moderate, been asked before, but it is specific. What specific complaints pragmatic way forward. If the Government do not about union record keeping have been made and by accept the amendment, that will completely endorse the whom over the last, say, three years? Secondly, as an view that this is bias motivated by prejudice against addendum to that, what evidence is there that unions trade unions and trade unionism. are not keeping accurate records? As we have heard before, under the 1992 legislation there is already a duty Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is making another on trade unions to keep their records up to date. What compelling speech. He mentions organisations such as has changed since then? What enormous problems are the Church, the IOD and the CBI; is he as astonished as associated with trade union record keeping that have I am that while this draconian measure is going through led the Government to their current position and to to restrict trade unionism even more in this country the change things in such a radical way? Conservative party will not even tell us how many members it has? 3.15 pm Thirdly, what assessment has been made of the impact John McDonnell: I fear when Governments start seeking on the privacy of trade union members? I have many to regulate civil society generally. That is what the constituents, as I am sure we all have, who are members clause does: it is a step along the path of regulation of of trade unions but whose employers do not know that. wider civil society organisations. What else? The Countryside I have had many conversations with constituents over Alliance? We might be up for that, just to see where the the past three years in which I have said to them that money comes from, but there are a range of organisations they do not need to inform their employer that they are whose rights, privileges and privacy we want to be a member of a trade union and can keep it secret if they respected for reasons of basic civil liberties. Why are are worried about future problems at work. Does the trade unions being singled out in this manner? The Bill Minister think that the increased access to trade union is being targeted and comes at a time when the Government records and activities will give people in that position are predicting that they will be faced with trade unionists any great confidence that their details will remain private, who are very angry about not being able to share in or should they start to worry that all sorts of people, what is supposed to be an economic recovery. It is about potentially including their employers, might get access the exercise of trade union rights. to those records and perhaps start to use them against them? The change in the nature of work means that that My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire is an important element of how trade unions and the and Arran (Katy Clark) mentioned the legality of the world of work operate. The days when we had great Government’s legislation. Let me be clear that our concentrations of employers, all of whom were often Governments have been condemned by the International union members, are gone. These days, we often have Labour Organisation and other international organisations smaller work forces and only a handful might be trade for two decades now because of their trade union union members. That group of people might not want legislation. It is not just about the right to strike; it is their details to be exposed to public view. about certain basic and fundamental trade union rights. The clause, yet again, imposes further duties that I Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right believe to be completely contrary to ILO conventions. that many trade union members, for whatever reason, Yet again, this country will be isolated in the world and do not wish their employer to know that they are a 1027 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1028 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill member of a trade union but very much value their I know that it is difficult enough to communicate with membership. Does he agree that those members’ concern just a branch. The key aspect of the Government’s is that their personal information might get into the motivation in previous legislation has been to address hands of their employer and could be used against them balloting procedures, which I understand to a certain in the workplace, particularly for future blacklisting? extent, because there is a need to ensure that there is an accurate record of membership when taking a ballot. John Cryer: That is a very good point. We have all However, what is sinister about the Bill’s proposals, sorts of debates in this place on blacklisting recently; it with reference to the Government’s assessment, is that is a problem that goes back many decades and persists they are about ensuring that the general public and in many sectors today. employers are My next question for the Minister is whether there “confident that voting papers and other communications are has been any assessment specifically of the effect of the reaching union members”. future legislation on the sectors of the economy that are The Bill therefore covers a wider range of activities than particularly casualised. I am thinking of construction, just balloting, so there could be challenges from employers agriculture, hospitality and catering. In construction and others about just whether a trade union had adequately and agriculture, particularly, the fluid nature of the communicated with its members, by post or other means, work force means that it is difficult to keep accurate about any matter. records of membership. I have worked for three trade unions in the past and John Cryer: My hon. Friend makes a good point. trade unions, more now than at any time in their history, Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether any other devote enormous resources—as many as they possibly section of civil society is as heavily regulated as trade can—to organising records and keeping them up to unions. Unions will be subject to even more regulation date. As I said when I intervened on the hon. Member because every piece of communication with members for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland), large general unions, will be covered by statute, which represents an extraordinary particularly Unite and the GMB, can easily lose 12% of intervention into people’s lives. their membership, particularly at a time such as this. Will the Minister tell us how the 1992 Act relates to Their membership tends to stand still because they can the Bill, and especially to clause 36, because that Act recruit another 12% in the same sectors to take the makes provision for keeping accurate and up-to-date place of those members who have been lost because of records? Will she tell us what has specifically changed jobs being lost, factory closures and so on, but just to since the implementation of that consolidation Act that stand still they have to recruit 12%. The level of churn has brought about an enormous problem that now must means that it is difficult to keep records up to date, no be dealt with? matter how many resources are devoted to record keeping. Of course, up-to-date records are dependent on members Julie Elliott: Given the regulation on trade unions’ informing the union that they have moved house, for membership records that already exists, does my hon. instance, or changed occupation. That does not always Friend agree that unions probably are the most regulated happen. membership organisations in the country and have the most accurate records? What is the need for extra regulation, Katy Clark: I congratulate my hon. Friend on how he other than to constrain the legitimate actions of trade is presenting his case. He is correct that unions put a unions? huge amount of resources into trying to keep accurate membership records, especially because of the number John Cryer: I could not agree more—my hon. Friend of legal challenges that employers take against them in puts it far better than I could. the courts. Does he agree that the changing nature of the work force, with the increase of zero-hours contracts Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I speak as someone and underemployment that means that people have who, like many Conservatives, believes in trade unions’ more than one part-time job, makes it even more difficult right to use their economic power collectively. However, for unions to keep accurate records? is the hon. Gentleman saying that trade unions should be subject to less regulation than at present? John Cryer: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. There is also the situation involving payroll companies. John Cryer: Yes, I am. I am interested to hear that the If such a company offers to take over all an employer’s hon. Gentleman believes in the collective strength of payroll responsibilities, the duties to pay pensions, national trade unions, and I am sure that he will be known in insurance and sick pay are divested to that payroll Dover as Red Charlie after that comment. company, meaning that that semi-detached element in The trade unions are subject to enormously heavy the workplace is responsible for maintaining many records, regulation, so I do believe in less regulation. Successive which makes keeping everything up to date even more Governments have carried out all sorts of investigations complicated and difficult. Another aspect is the casualisation into the burdens of regulation on every sector of the of the workplace, because there are some sectors of the economy, but I agree with the hon. Member for Huntingdon economy in which full-time permanent employment is (Mr Djanogly) that there should be an investigation almost being abolished. Again, that situation will make into the regulatory burdens on trade unions. As a trade it more difficult to comply with the Bill’s strictures. union officer in a past life, I have seen such burdens, and while I would be out of order if I talked about my John McDonnell: My hon. Friend makes a crucial experiences, they were extraordinary. I suspect that a point about the difficulty of communicating with trade number of Government Members would be surprised union members. I have been a branch secretary, so to hear how heavily regulated trade unions are. 1029 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1030 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Charlie Elphicke: While I support trade unions’ use of My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South legitimate economic power, taking the step of using that (Ian Murray) pointed out forcefully the very small serious power can have great economic consequences. number of complaints from members about the processes Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that power should and about the way in which the unions operated— be exercised within a framework that has been carefully 10 complaints, I think, since the 1980s. Given the numbers set out so that the people at the top of trade unions involved, that is remarkable. cannot abuse it? 3.30 pm John Cryer: Of course I agree, but there has always It is difficult to answer the question why the Bill is been a legal framework for taking industrial action. The necessary. The first legislation was in 1871. That legalised idea that anyone ever takes industrial action—not only trade unionism, and it gave unions the option to register strike action, but action short of strikes—lightly is a as trade unions. The vast majority of the major unions myth. That just does not happen in the real world. eventually did so. It is interesting that the term “trade union” in those days included employers associations. The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. The Somewhere or other that has been lost in all the processes hon. Gentleman has been very well behaved so far and and all the amendments made to the legislation over the has stayed entirely in order, but he has been led astray years, culminating in the consolidation of trade union by the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). He and employment law in the 1992 Act, which was referred should now return to the clause. to earlier. It is interesting to look at certification officers and John Cryer: I am told that the hon. Member for how they have seen their role. As I mentioned in an Dover (Charlie Elphicke) regularly leads people astray— intervention, I organised a conference some years ago [Interruption.] I do not mean that; I am joking. at which the certification officer of the time spoke As has been said repeatedly, we were first led to about his functions. As he saw it, his function was to believe that this measure would be a lobbying Bill, but deal with complaints made by members that a trade since then parts 2 and 3 have been added. We had been union had failed to maintain an accurate register of promised a lobbying Bill for three and a half years, but members, and to see that trade unions kept proper all sorts of things have been bolted on to that. Why was accounting records, had their accounts properly audited, there no consultation paper on not only part 2, which and submitted annual returns for the investigation of we dealt with yesterday, but part 3 and provisions such the financial affairs of trade unions and for ensuring as clause 36? Why could not the Government have that the statutory requirements concerning the actuarial issued a consultation paper so that people could have examination of members’ superannuation schemes were contributed to the process, rather than ramming the Bill observed. I have not had the time to check the detailed through in a few days, despite introducing it just before provisions of the 1992 Act, but it seems to me that it the recess? These measures should have been thought encapsulates everything that the Government want to through carefully and a consultation process to which do, and that that is within the existing powers of the people could contribute should have been held, but that certification officer and the system. simply did not happen. We have a major problem in this country, and it is a problem for all the political parties. I believe it is a Mr Doran: I declare an interest as a member of the serious problem and that the country pays a high price GMB union, which has funded me in the past, and as for it. For some of our near neighbours, the Germans secretary of the trade union group of Labour MPs. I and the Nordic countries, there are certain areas where wanted to say that because, like most of my colleagues, all the parties agree, and they are all social and community I am tired of the way in which trade unions are demonised, areas, including rights at work and the operation of especially by the Government, who are putting as many trade unions. We have a system where one Government obstacles as possible in the way of trade unions carrying come in and want to rip up everything that has gone out their normal and reasonable functions, as is apparent before—not just in respect of trade unions, but in many from part 3 of the Bill. The points that hon. Members other areas—then another Government come in and do have made about this group of amendments, which we the same in their turn. have been discussing for some time, are relevant to I was a Parliamentary Private Secretary to the virtually every other provision, because we need to hear Employment Minister at the Department of Trade and from the Government why part 3 is necessary, which is Industry in 1997 when we came into power. Trade union the point on which I shall focus my speech. issues were seriously discussed in the DTI and round I have had some experience of working with the the Cabinet table at that time, because we did not want certification officer. In 1993, when the unions were just to take a lurch back. Matters were discussed seriously approaching the 10-year ballot for their political fund, I with the trade unions in advance and they knew what was appointed by a group of trade unions—more than was coming. 30 of them—to run the campaign, along with a colleague, It was decided, first, that in any area where a trade Derek Gladwin, who became Lord Gladwin. Sadly, he union member had the right to ballot, that right would is now dead. We ran that operation, balloting more not be removed. That was sacrosanct—a red line. Secondly, than 6 million trade unionists. I did it in close co-operation it was decided that we needed to review trade union with the certification officer and I learned a little about laws and to do so comprehensively. There was no point the way in which certification officers operate. in putting only our side of the case and banging ahead If we look back at the history of the regulation of with the sort of stuff that we are seeing now—Beecroft, trade unions, it is fairly clear that trade unions are as has been mentioned, the constant erosion of workers’ used to regulation and the requirements of regulation. rights and constant efforts to undermine trade unions. 1031 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1032 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill We decided to call in the TUC and the CBI and to ask areas. One key area was the problem of recognition the director general of the CBI and the general secretary disputes, when unions had built up a membership in a of the TUC, Adair Turner and John Monks, to go away company and wanted recognition. Many such disputes and look at all the issues that needed to be considered. ended up in the courts and in difficult strikes. We They were asked to come back and tell us what they wanted to take the heat out of all areas of conflict. All agreed on, what they disagreed on but could negotiate, of that was implemented in the Employment Relations and what they positively disagreed on. I remember sitting Act 1999. The evidence was a dramatic reduction in the in the Secretary of State’s office when Adair Turner and number of strikes—my hon. Friend the Member for John Monks made their report after months of Edinburgh South mentioned the number, but I cannot consideration. We were all staggered by what they had remember—and that has been maintained. I do not done, because the CBI and the TUC had agreed on think that there is any question about that. much more than we ever imagined. We set a programme During the Conservative years, and the previous Labour based on the facts, the evidence and the thorough years, to be honest, the level of strikes was far too high. inquiry by the people who are the experts in this game—not That legislation and that process brought that to an the politicians, but business and the representatives of end, and at the time both sides were happy. Even before the work force. that legislation was implemented to set in place a process for dealing with recognition disputes, and the effort was Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is setting out what to take them out of the courts and minimise conflict, I think is the correct approach to dealing with trade over 1,000 new recognition agreements were signed by union matters. He mentioned earlier the role of the both sides. certification officer. From his wide experience of trade unions, is he aware of any problems with the current One of the major problems with this Government is role he has set out? If not, does he share my conclusion that they have a one-sided approach that demonises that this is merely a politically motivated attack on trade unions and in every way possible places barriers in trade unions going about their legitimate day-to-day the way of the trade union movement. There is no business? realisation of what happens on the ground. Most trade unions are there not to carry out strikes or disrupt the Mr Doran: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. employer, but to protect their members. As part of the I am trying to be polite to the Government. I must say process I mentioned, we did a lot of balloting and held that I have not had any contact with the certification focus groups to find out why members signed up to officer for some time, but I know from the years when I unions. The important thing for most of them was the did have contact that there were problems—it would be insurance policy that they got—the fact that the union unfair to say that there were not. When I was in the job, would support them if there was an argument with their a number of trade unions were very unhappy with the employer, and in particular would pay for the lawyers changes that had been made in 1984 and were not in an unfair dismissal case, for example. That is what complying. I know from my contact with the trade members bought into. unions that that is all resolved, and the record speaks One of my concerns about the Government’s approach for itself. The certification officer does a job that is is that the harder it becomes for trade unions to operate required of him. Some people might think that he properly, as trade unions should be allowed to operate requires too much of the trade unions, but the fact of in a democratic system, the more members will become the matter is that they have accepted the regulation and tired of the system and have no proper recourse for their work within the rules as they are. grievances. I do not often agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman is giving a on these issues— fascinating description of the certification officer’s role in providing membership audit certificates. The John McDonnell: Yes, you do. Leader of the Opposition has suggested in recent days that perhaps there should be an opt-in for the political Mr Doran: I try not to. fund. Does the hon. Gentleman support that, and does he think that that could have been included in the clause? John McDonnell: Increasingly you do.

Mr Doran: I always support my leader. Mr Doran: My point is that if people see a weakened trade union movement, they will take matters into their The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. own hands. That is a dangerous situation. Members cannot just make something up and say that Many companies around this country work well with it should be in the clause; they must relate the debate to their trade unions and recognise them properly. Most what is in the clause already. The hon. Member for are large; a significant number of FTSE companies, for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who has been here quite long example, have good relations with trade unions. I remember enough, should learn how to behave properly. a number of occasions when unions have been used to lobby Members of Parliament. Once my right hon. Friend Mr Doran: I hope that I took it in good part, Sir Edward. the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) The decision on the legislation that was to proceed and I made a difficult trip to Sellafield; we were expected was taken under the process I have mentioned, and to stand on top of a reactor, although we were both too everything agreed between the CBI and the TUC was cowardly to do that. We were also gently asked to meet implemented. At its heart was the need to take the heat the trade union officials. At that time we were developing out of industrial action. We looked at a whole range of an anti-nuclear policy. 1033 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1034 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill The Temporary Chairman (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. There are four major unions for workers on the North The hon. Gentleman should leave the subject of Sellafield sea: the GMB, Unite, BALPA—the British Air Line Pilots and come back to clause 36, please. The discussion is Association—and the RMT. Those workers come from getting very wide. all parts of the country. Every one of them is registered with their trade union at their home address, but their Mr Doran: Two hundred trade unionists turned up to workplace is the North sea. It is very difficult for the lobby us at the meeting we attended. The point I was unions when they have major problems trying to contact trying to make, Mr Leigh, was about the relationship their members on the North sea—even when they know between a good union and a good employer. they are there, which is not always the case. I saw many My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead problems along those lines when I was involved in trade (John Cryer) raised union problems. There are two ways union ballots, because one of my jobs was to make sure of looking at the matter. Either the Government do not that the unions had up-to-date and adequate records. know what the problems are, in which case they are This issue has been under discussion in trade union negligent, or they know the problems and want them to and Government circles for a number of years. It is a be exploited. There are major difficulties in the path of great disappointment to me that the Labour Government any trade union that wants to keep proper records. did not recognise the problem, because it was easy to The first difficulty is the churn rate. My hon. Friend resolve. If the Minister is seriously worried about it, he said that it was 10% or 15%, but the churn rate for the could easily implement an obligation on employers to Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, or give information to trade unions about their current USDAW, for example, is 25% or sometimes 30%. Every work force which would be virtually cost-free. It would year it has to replace 25% of its membership. A lot of not place a huge responsibility on employers to ask members go on to other jobs. They pay their union dues them to provide that information so that everybody can by direct debit and think they do not need to bother to be sure that there is accuracy, particularly as regards tell the union that they have changed workplace, because any industrial ballots that may take place. There would they are still working in the same business and paying be much more good will if the Government went down their union dues. That is difficult for unions. There are that route instead of imposing extra bureaucracy on the lots of practical issues such as that. unions in the way they propose. The issue of human rights gives rise to valid concerns. The biggest employer in my area is the North sea oil One of the trade union legal firms has given legal advice and gas industry, which employs about 30,000 workers pointing out how intrusive the proposed powers are in offshore and 150,000 onshore. All have different status relation to the possession of sensitive personal information, in the workplace. Many union members are self-employed including the home addresses and personal contact and many work from company to company. At the details, and probably bank details, of unlimited numbers moment, there is a massive skill shortage in the North of union members. It says: sea. Wages are being ramped up—not a problem in the rest of the country, I know—because people are being “The Bill gives the Certification Officer, his staff, inspectors and newly-created ‘Assurers’ sweeping powers to take and copy enticed to other companies, but still working in the individual membership records and correspondence on the basis same business, travelling on the same unsafe helicopters of having an undefined ‘good reason’. As the TUC has pointed and paying their union dues as usual through their bank out, it is not the business of the State to know who is or who is not accounts. Those are all massive problems. a trade union member and where they live.” There are serious worries about that. Others have mentioned Katy Clark: My hon. Friend’s speech is most interesting. the problems of blacklisting and so on, which should be It is incredibly important to put these issues into context. taken much more seriously. Over recent years, unions have spent millions of pounds Finally, the much delayed impact assessment makes trying to ensure that they have the best possible membership clear that the policy objective is to give greater assurance records. They have also had to pay many millions of that unions comply with the existing duty to maintain a pounds to lawyers in defending those membership records register of members’ names and addresses. I repeat the in courts of law. Is that really what we want? point that others have made: there is no evidence—or at least none that is clear to those of us who are regularly 3.45 pm involved with trade unions—that this Bill is necessary. It is clear to the Opposition that it is politically motivated. Mr Doran: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In the The Liberal party has a very good record on trade discussions we had in 1997, the aim was to take industrial unions and it is very difficult to understand why it is relations out of the law courts, yet this Bill is going to involved in this process. put them back in again. In addition to all the logistical problems, many employers, Ian Lavery: There have been some fantastic contributions not just those in the North sea industry—I think this to this very important debate on part 3 of the Bill. The also applies to virtually every shipping company based most important thing about the Bill has been addressed in Britain—now offshore their workers so that employers by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North national insurance contributions do not have to be (Mr Doran) in his conclusion and by my right hon. Friend paid. The Chancellor has decided that that situation the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), should change, but I am not sure whether he has yet who both said that it could be in contravention of the introduced the necessary regulations or legislation. When European convention on human rights. That is a huge the employers are not paying national insurance and issue. the workers are moving from system to system, it is very The Bill was published eight working days ago, which difficult for the trade union to make contact, and that is has given no opportunity for any clear consultation. a major problem. Indeed, there has been a complete lack of consultation. 1035 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1036 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Usually, those who are affected by a Bill are at least There has been no explanation or critique of the problem asked to participate in some form of consultation, but that the Government are seeking to solve. Is that not that simply has not been the case. The TUC, which is what we need to hear from the Minister? hardly a beacon of militancy, should at least have been given the opportunity to express the views of its 7.2 million Ian Lavery: I fully agree with my hon. Friend. We members. Others should have been given a similar have been in this debate for a number of hours and, opportunity. despite many interventions from both sides of the Chamber, That lack of consultation and the fact that the Bill is we have had no suggestion of what part 3 seeks to undoubtedly an invasion of privacy and freedom of resolve. That can only mean that it does not seek to association mean that there is a huge question mark resolve anything. It is just bolted on to parts 1 and 2. It over whether it is legal. I am convinced that there will be does not seek to do anything other than put a huge a legal challenge. burden on the local trade unionists who are expected to compile the registers of the work force, as my hon. Katy Clark: I congratulate my hon. Friend on what Friend the Member for Aberdeen North said. he has said so far. Is he aware that Unison commissioned Those same lay members who do their work on a Michael Ford QC of Old Square chambers to provide it daily basis have been hammered by the coalition with legal advice? It has been shared with the Government Government in terms of their facility time. That is not a and says that coincidence because up to 90% of public sector workers, “the Bill probably infringes both Article 8 of the European particularly those in local authorities, have been hammered Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) with regards to the right in that way. And yet those are the individuals who give to a private life and Article 11…with regards to the freedom of up their time to ensure that their trade unions adhere to association.” the legislation, including the Trade Union and Labour Will my hon. Friend join me in calling on the Minister Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. The attack on the to address those issues fully in her response? trade unions by taking away facility time will make it extremely difficult for those people. Ian Lavery: I am fully aware of all the legal advice—it has been received not just by Unison but by other Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. organisations—which clearly highlights the concerns Friend for being so generous with his time. I agree with about the Bill. The legal issue is very important and can everything that he has said. Does he agree that it would be argued to and fro, as is always the case. However, if be helpful to hear from the Minister whether she has the legal profession have as many doubts about the Bill met the TUC to discuss the concerns that he raises? I as it appears to have, surely it should have been put on know that the TUC is keen to talk to the Government the back burner in order to allow for consultation, legal about those matters. advice and discussions with Members of all parties. Surely that is how we should operate in a democratic Ian Lavery: It would be helpful if the Minister explained society. Of course, as my hon. Friend the Member for who has been consulted in this process—a lot of people Blaydon (Mr Anderson) mentioned, the Bill is not would be interested to hear that. My view is that it about tidying anything up, but about hammering trade would not take long to explain how many people have unions. It is about trade union baiting, which the press, been consulted, because it is only one or two. The trade the media and the Conservative Government are happy unions individually and the TUC collectively have not to do on an almost daily basis. That is atrocious, but we been consulted. see it day after day. Getting back to the Bill— Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Is it a surprise that this debate happens to coincide with the week of The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): Order. The the TUC conference? hon. Gentleman should already be on the Bill.

Ian Lavery: Unfortunately, I have been unable to 4pm attend the TUC conference for a number of reasons. Of course it is not a coincidence. It is part of the strategy of Ian Lavery: I accept that I have again been led astray, the coalition Government to attack trade unionists Sir Edward. Perhaps I should have said that I am while they are at the trade union conference. Only a few getting back to the meat of the Bill. Government Members have been here for this debate. In the past two years—it has been blatantly obvious There are only two present at the moment. That shows in the past week or so—we have seen that the Liberal how much interest they have in the Bill. It is outrageous. Democrats are dead. They have been absolutely blown This Bill is part of the Government’s clear-cut strategy out of the water. Congratulations to them—they have to attack trade unions in any way that they can. suicide notes and everything. Last night, they voted The real question is, what is the Bill about? I am against the big society, charities that strive to do their really looking forward to the Minister’s response. She is best, and campaign groups like the National Union of a staunch Liberal Democrat. Some might say that she Students, which will campaign against the Liberal has sold her principles and her party down the river on Democrats in a big way. I hope that, because of how many issues. Perhaps others would disagree. I am not they voted last night, the campaign against them will sure, but my view is irrelevant. become increasingly strong. Let us hope they get their just desserts. Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is being very generous Part 3 deals with trade union administration. As in giving way. He is right to point out that clause 36 is Opposition Members have said, British trade union neither liberal nor democratic if one is a trade unionist. legislation is the most restrictive in western Europe—it 1037 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1038 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Lavery] the main, it will be the ordinary person at grass-roots level who will have to make sure that the proposed is anti-trade union legislation. The question is this: legislation is applied. what does part 3 seek to resolve? We have received Anyone wishing to take part in the debate should at copies of the impact assessment study, but it was not least have read section 24 of the 1992 Act, as that is available earlier and, unfortunately, hon. Members have what the Bill is about. What on earth are we after? not had the opportunity to read it. A consultation Section 24 states: document on the measure is absent from the discussion. “Duty to maintain register of members’ names and addresses Clause 36 creates a new duty on trade unions to send (1) A trade union shall compile and maintain a register of the a membership audit certificate to the certification officer names and addresses of its members, and shall secure, so far as is when they see each annual return. If the union has more reasonably practicable, that the entries in the register are accurate than 10,000 members, the membership audit certificate and are kept up-to-date. must be provided by an independent assurer. Given the (2) The register may be kept by means of a computer.” current legislation, why is that measure being introduced? The existing system is working. Under the 1992 Act, a Julie Elliott: Is it not true that the certification officer trade union has a duty to maintain a register of the oversees compliance with the 1992 Act to ensure that names and addresses of its members and a duty membership records are kept correctly? Does my hon. “so far as is reasonably practicable” Friend therefore agree that there is no need for further to ensure that regulation or changes to the law to add to this bureaucratic “entries in the register are accurate and…kept up-to-date.” burden? The 1992 Act provides that a trade union should “allow any member”, on request, with Ian Lavery: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. That is the point I hope I have established and I will continue “reasonable notice, to ascertain from the register, free of charge…whether there is an entry on it relating to him” to make it. or her. A failure to comply with the requirements of Section 24(3) states: section 24 can be subject to an application either to the “A trade union shall— CO or the court. “(a) allow any member, upon reasonable notice, to ascertain The certification office annual report 2012-13 states from the register, free of charge and at any reasonable time, that 166 trade unions submitted returns but not membership whether there is an entry on it relating to him; and . lists, recording a total of nearly 7.2 million members, (b) if requested to do so by any member, supply him as soon as compared with 7,261,000 members the previous year—the reasonably practicable, either free of charge or on payment of a reasonable fee, with a copy of any entry on the register relating to largest reduction in membership was in the construction him.” sector. The annual return is to include a copy of the auditor’s report on the accounts, which allows the CO to compare revenue from dues with the numbers reported. Andrew Gwynne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way to Back Benchers. His point is crucial to the In 2012-13, the returns showed that income from decisions we will take today. Is he aware of any suggestion members increased by 1.3% to £873 million. The returns made to the Government by trade unions that they are also showed that 90.5% of the total number of members not able to meet the requirements set out in the 1992 were contributing members, compared to a figure of Act and therefore require new legislation? 89.4% in the previous year. There is nothing to fix here. Even we accept the Bill, Ian Lavery: Although the trade unions were not very nothing will be fixed. The saying goes, “If it ain’t broke, receptive to the legislation initially, they accepted the don’t fix it.” Trade unions are duty bound to maintain a change in the law. They accepted that the TULR regulations register of members’ names and addresses—this is had to be adhered to, and they have done so—reluctantly, important—so far as is reasonably practicable, as per although now it is not too much of a problem. In fact, the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) in many ways it helps trade unions to keep people Act 1992. I would have thought that anyone wishing pressed to ensure that they have up-to-date names and to contribute to the debate has read section 24 of the addresses for all members. The trade unions were not 1992 Act. receptive at the time; they are happy now. Indeed, I have not spoken to any union or union representative, or Katy Clark: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his even any union member or non-union member—not speech. He will be aware that a former leader of the one person—who has told me that we need more legislation Labour party called Britain’s trade union legislation the on union names and addresses in the register. Although most restrictive in Europe. Is he surprised that Government the unions were not happy about the 1992 Act initially, Members are not jumping up to complain about red it has been acted upon and delivered. There are not tape? many complaints, as we have heard, to the certification officer because of problems with the names and addresses Ian Lavery: It is amazing. The Government are looking in the register or the legislation, so everything seems to to cut red tape on industrial relations, health and safety be in order. Everything seems to be going ahead, yet the and trade union law, but at the same time the only Government have put these proposals before us. organisation for which they are looking to increase bureaucracy is the trade union movement. That is a fair Mr Anderson: Is my hon. Friend award that the TUC point, which highlights what is really behind the Bill: briefing says that it has made freedom of information another vicious attack on the trade union movement. In requests to the Department for Business, Innovation 1039 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1040 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill and Skills, ACAS and the certification officer asking 4.15 pm whether anyone has been raising this issue, and that no John Cryer: My hon. Friend will know that over the one has? years, under Governments of both political complexions, there have been all sorts of reports on what are generally Ian Lavery: That is an important point. I have been in referred to as the burdens on business. In line with the front of the certification officer on numerous occasions suggestion from the hon. Member for Huntingdon in my previous employment, on lots of different issues— (Mr Djanogly), does not my hon. Friend think it would some not very pleasant, by the way—but there are very be a good idea to have an assessment of the burdens on few people complaining to the certification officer about trade unions? I would not recommend someone like this issue. We heard the facts and the figures from my Adrian Beecroft to conduct such a review, but it would hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South(Ian Murray), be a good idea to have some sort of report on those which show that there is no one complaining. The only burdens, just so that we can set out the argument in person complaining is the certification officer, who is objective terms, in contrast to this very subjective piece saying, “What on earth do you want me to do here? I’m of legislation that is being rammed through Parliament. only doing what I’m expected to do. What’s happening?” Ian Lavery: Of course that should be the case, but I Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): On the onerous am not sure that the Opposition should ask the coalition duty placed on the certification officer by clause 36 as Government even to try to be sympathetic to the trade currently drafted, proposed new section 24ZA(7) of the union movement. I would be afraid of their response. I 1992 Act says: know that it would not be positive. Perhaps instead of taking away 90% of trade unionists’ facility time, they “The Certification Officer must at all reasonable hours”— would take 95%. That is an example of the ways in not “times”, but “hours”— which the trade unions have been attacked by the coalition “keep available for public inspection…copies of all membership Government. audit certificates sent to the Officer under this section.” Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is making a compelling Can the hon. Gentleman throw any light on the definition case for why this dreadful legislation should not make it of “all reasonable hours”, rather than reasonable times? to the statute book. Given his vast experience of trade unions, can he think of any scenario in which it would Ian Lavery: I personally cannot do that—if I had be in a union’s interest not to keep an updated membership drafted these wretched regulations, I might be in a list? position to do so—but the hon. Lady highlights an important point. Perhaps that is something the Opposition Ian Lavery: Speaking from vast experience, it is always could suggest: that there is a difference between this in a trade union’s interest to maintain the best possible legislation and the certification officer legislation in the record of its members, for a whole raft of reasons. A TULR regulations. good trade union does not stand on its hind legs every week screaming, “Strike, strike, strike!” A good trade Section 25 of the 1992 Act addresses a number of union needs the correct names and addresses of its problems—Members have referred to this—by setting members, so that it can address all the problems that out how failures can be remedied and how people can society currently faces. This is not just about strike apply to the certification officer if they believe there is a action, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for failure under the legislation. Section 25(1) says: Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly). That is always a last resort. “A member of a trade union who claims that the union has But I will tell you something, Mr Sheridan. I was on failed to comply with any of the requirements of section 24…may strike for a full year during the miners’ strike, and what apply to the Certification Officer for a declaration to that effect.” a brilliant year it was! I was fighting not for myself but Section 25(2) says: for the wider society, for jobs and for communities up “On an application being made to him, the Certification and down the country. It gives people a lot of pleasure if Officer shall…make such enquiries as he thinks fit”. they are taking action and suffering greatly for those reasons. My father and my four brothers were all on That is reasonable. It means that if someone has a strike—my mother had a hell of a job—but we enjoyed problem under section 24 of the 1992 Act, which deals it because we were fighting for others. That is what the with the names and addresses of individuals, and if the trade union movement is about, and that is why I get certification officer believes there is a problem, he may, terribly upset by the constant union-baiting from the under section 25(2)(a), make inquiries as he thinks fit, Liberal Democrats and of course the Tories. give the applicant and the trade union an opportunity to be heard, under section 25(2)(b), and then It is in everyone’s interest to keep accurate records. Under the measures that were introduced in 1992, trade “make or refuse the declaration asked for.” unions have to have that information for balloting That means that, under section 25, if any individual reasons, among others. They normally have to send a member of a trade union has a problem, the certification full membership list with the annual return form, the officer will, on receiving an application, investigate it. AR21, to the certification officer anyway. The problem He will investigate it together with the applicant, and was that whenever we tried to take any type of democratic the trade union will be there to give its side of the story. industrial action, the employer would say to me as the We must remember that the existing legislation includes local representative, “You’d better have the right names the words “reasonably practicable”. There could be a and addresses. If you haven’t, we’ll get an injunction. lot of reasons for a name or address being slightly Then, under the law, the union will be liable for any loss different. There is a whole raft of legislation already in to the company resulting from strike action.” At the place relating to the matters covered in this Bill. same time, the employer obviously had a list of everybody’s 1041 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1042 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Lavery] I think that in any other country, action such as this on the part of a democratically elected Government names and addresses. A responsible employer has everyone’s would be condemned as an attack on free trade unionism, name and address in order to pay them—some trade and I think that that is exactly what is happening in this unionists might prefer to keep their identity private—so case. It is about time that the coalition Government sat surely it should be incumbent on the employer to allow back and paused, as they have in the past. It is time that any change in name and address to be passed on to the they consulted others, got the legal position right, and relevant trade union so that the union can act in accordance then returned with reforms that actually meant something with the law. Is that too much to ask? It is feasible, but it and changed something. I look forward very much isatrap. indeed to the Minister’s response, which should take all I was a representative at different levels of the union, of one minute. and we would sometimes appear in front of the certification officer and often the High Court. If industrial action Mr Anderson: It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, occurs, it might be said that somebody’s name has been Mr Sheridan. spelt incorrectly or that somebody has died without people being aware of it in order to try to get that whole I intend to focus on clause 36 stand part. Let me democratic process abolished. That is the problem with begin by putting it on the record—in case anyone thinks this legislation. that I am trying to hide it—that I am very much part of Many colleagues on both sides of the Committee the trade union movement. I am a former national might agree that bureaucracy is not always a dirty word. president of Unison, and a honorary life member of Since the Prime Minister got the keys to Downing that union; I am a member of the Communication Street, the Government have promised to cut red tape. Workers Union, and a former proud member of the What have we seen? We have seen the Government National Union of Mineworkers; and I was a member making it easier for people to be hired and fired for no of the General Council of the TUC for six years. So I particular reason. They have gone to work with some think that I may just have a little bit of an idea of what zeal in attacking workers’ rights at every opportunity, we are talking about, whereas other Members who are and they have relaxed health and safety legislation. The in the Chamber may not. unions have rightly opposed all those things, which they I was actively involved in the trade union movement won in the first place. for 40 years, and during that time I challenged very I have said before that it is funny that the only area drastically some of the legislation that has been referred where the Government have sought to increase bureaucracy to today, including the Trade Union and Labour Relations is in the administration of trade unions. This will not be (Consolidation) Act 1992, which the trade unions described for the last time either. Unfortunately, this coalition, at the time as a scabs’ charter. That was exactly what it with Liberal Democrat support, will continue to oppose was there for. It was there to help people to take on and and attack not just trade union members, but many of undermine their own trade unions. It was a deliberate the most vulnerable people in society. That is what they attempt by the Conservative party to undermine trade are about. As I have said, I believe that at the ballot box union legislation and trade union activity, and exactly they will reap what they have sown. That, by the way, is the same thing is happening today. This Bill is part and democracy. parcel of that legislation. [Interruption.] It looks as This Bill is undoubtedly about ideology. It is a thinly though the Minister wants to intervene. veiled attack on a movement that the parties on the Government Benches despise. We could move on to Tom Brake: I was just speculating on when the hon. deal with the duty to appoint an assurer, but at this Gentleman would actually refer to clause 36, given the point I would like to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the absence of any reference to it so far. However, I am sure Member for Edinburgh South and of course the shadow that the Chairman will intervene when he thinks that BIS Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham the hon. Gentleman is not addressing the issue. (Mr Umunna), who has highlighted another issue relating to another problem with these lists. They will allow The Temporary Chairman (Jim Sheridan): The Chair organisations to increase blacklisting, which is already will decide what is in order. the scourge of the working class. Because of information being passed willy-nilly from employer to different secret organisations, some people are on blacklists. At the end Mr Anderson: That is par for the course in this of the day, these people and their families can suffer debate, Mr Sheridan. The Government are trying to greatly for the rest of their lives. stifle debate, and they are doing that by pushing the Bill That is a problem with the data. The new rules will through Parliament in record time. They do not want to mean that three new groups will have access to individual hear the truth. They do not want to hear the facts. membership details—three new opportunities for data There is a thread running through this debate. It is not to escape into the public domain. Several organisations about the clauses; it is not about the words on the have raised a concern—I have already mentioned it—about paper; it is about a political fix. The Minister’s party is the legality of that. The trade union movement and its colluding with the Tory party in an attempt—a direct individual organisations have a duty under the Data attempt, as we heard yesterday—to fix the people in this Protection Act to ensure that the information they hold country so that their voices are dumbed down. on individual members is kept secure, but this new The 1992 Act created the office of commissioner for legislation when passed—not “if”, because it will be the rights of trade union members, or CROTUM. There passed—will prevent that from happening. There will was also a Scottish commissioner for the rights of trade be a legal contradiction about who is right and it will be union members, or SCROTUM. That is what the debate, up for legal challenge. and the Bill, are about. It is fitting in this context. 1043 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1044 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill That office was set up deliberately to encourage disgruntled union bosses who are controlling the Labour party, trade union members to get out of their unions and telling the leader what to do and telling us all what to undermine them. do, and bankrolling us. That is absolute guff. The The Minister said that I should return to the subject people being bankrolled are the Members sitting on the of the clause, and I shall do so now. Let me ask this: Government Benches, who are bankrolled by people why are we here? This debate ought to be driven by the who have no democratic right whatsoever and where huge public concern that exists in this country about there is no transparency about what they are doing. The cash for questions, cronyism, dinners at No. 10 and the truth is the agenda is very clear: big business is getting buying of favours. We ought to be discussing what was away with murder. revealed yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for We have heard over the past few days that 1% of Bassetlaw (John Mann): the fact that private individuals lobbyists could be caught by this Bill. What about the pumped £250,000 into his constituency to try to prevent other 99% who are getting away with things? That is him from becoming Member of Parliament for Bassetlaw. what the people of this country are worried about. We should be discussing those issues, rather than the This is a continuation of a raft of constitutional work minutiae of legislation that is already more than adequate. that has been done over the past three years: the alternative As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member vote referendum Bill, Lords reform, the packing out of for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), 40 million people the Lords, the boundary review, the attempts to impose have been registered on union lists in the last seven city mayors. They have been introduced for one reason years, and there has not been one complaint. The people alone: to tip the balance of power in favour of the of this country are not concerned about what certification coalition parties at the 2015 general election. It is a officers are getting up to; they are concerned about deliberate ploy, and people can see through it and see it cronyism. They are concerned about the influence that for what it is. The Government want to put this Bill in Murdoch has, and the influence that private people have. place quickly so that from 8 May next year there will be They are concerned about people such as Asil Nadir a year when trade unions and civic society are banned and Michael Brown, who are languishing in jail while from speaking, because the Government want to try to the Government parties keep money that they stole. make people forget the mess they have got this country into and the things they have done such as introducing Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is making a superb tuition fees and the bedroom tax, and not responding speech. If his constituency mailbag is anything like positively to the Robin Hood tax campaign. They want mine, he will have received hundreds of e-mails and a vacuum in that year so no one can challenge them. letters about yesterday’s business. How many people in The people of this country will not have that, and I am his constituency have raised concerns about the certification convinced that if this Bill becomes law there will be a lot officer? of people who are prepared to stand up and break that law. 4.30 pm Mr Anderson: Absolutely none; not one. Lady Hermon: Would the hon. Gentleman care to comment on the inconsistency in the Government’s We heard earlier from our learned friend the Chairman approach? A Bill relating to Northern Ireland is going of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee through that will continue the anonymity of donations about the work it was doing to try to build a consensus to political parties in Northern Ireland, but this Bill, across the House in addressing the points the people of which is about the transparency of all sorts of things, is this country are really worried about. That has been putting huge burdens on charities and trade unions. In thrown out of the window, however, so that yesterday Northern Ireland, however, we do not know how much, we discussed attacks on charities and organisations like if anything, any of the parties represented in this House the Royal British Legion and today we are talking about are contributing across Northern Ireland. attacks on the trade union movement.

Stephen McPartland: Is the hon. Gentleman prepared Mr Anderson: As the hon. Lady will know, I serve on to tell us how many unions have approached him with the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and I have concerns about the certification officer and this part of been involved in the pre-legislative scrutiny of that Bill. the Bill? The way it has passed through this House is a model of how to handle legislation. We went to Northern Ireland, Mr Anderson: No trade union has approached me we met people over there, we brought people to this about the certification officer, but, as my hon. Friend House, and we talked about the implications of the the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) said, the unions measures. We talked literally about life and death matters, campaigned against legislation in the 1990s, but they because people are frightened. They say, “If I’m exposed have now accepted the reality of that legislation. They as supporting this political party, my life could be at have put money aside time and again. Staff time is used risk.” That is a model of how to deal with a Bill, but it is up and people are employed to make sure the records the exact opposite of what has happened with this are kept up to date. There is no reason to do what this Bill—what has happened here is an absolute disgrace. part of the Bill is saying should be done, and what this Inconsistency is a problem. I have mentioned a number part of the Bill is supposed to be about does not in any of times that no one seems to think it is an issue. Three sense have anything to do with lobbying or people organisations that ought to know whether or not the misusing lobbyists. current arrangements are working are the Department As we saw yet again today, the Prime Minister cannot for Business, Innovation and Skills, the certification stop himself: he has to attack the trade union movement, officer and ACAS, and they all say they have had no because that is part of the narrative—the big, bad trade complaints. 1045 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1046 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Mr Anderson] was asking whether we could make it tougher, but even he accepted the fact that the certification officer was We have heard this is part and parcel of a modernisation saying, “There isn’t a problem.” The numbers that have process. What about the Government’s system of one-in, been cited clearly show that there is no problem. two-out regulation? Regulations will be involved in The TUC was right to say that this measure is part implementing this measure, as will costs to the taxpayer, and parcel of a package that is attacking free speech: it when we employ assessors and investigators. What does is limiting criticism of the Government or Government that do? I hope that the Minister will tell us how many policies; it is threatening the legality of the TUC to do regulations she thinks might be needed to put this in its business through its congress; it is preventing the place and which regulations she will take out to cover TUC from having a national demonstration in the for it. lead-up to any elections; and it is preventing campaigning. It is clear from our discussions that there are two As the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) reasons why this measure is going to be pushed through. said, it also raises particular issues in places such as First, it will make it very much harder for unions to Northern Ireland and has implications there. So, if have democratically effective industrial action—that is nothing else, we should be saying, “This is not on.” clear. Secondly, as has been reported by Liberal Democrat My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth Lord Tyler—this was mentioned by my right hon. Friend and Dearne asked the Leader of the House, when he the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey)—it was still here, why he will not do the same as he did is about having an impact on the ability of trade unions when he was Secretary of State for Health—pause and to fund the political party they choose to fund. It is reflect. dead clear that that is what it is about. People are not stupid. Government Members expect the public of this Ian Murray: Or resign. country to be treated like fools, but people are not fools and they can see through this; the Bill is about Mr Anderson: He could resign—that is a good idea. “transparency”—there is a lot of transparency going on at this time. People know exactly what is happening. I am clear that the reason why the Government will not pause and reflect is because they want to ram this Why should this “transparency” apply only to people measure through. There is a timetable involved. The who support the Labour party? Why are we not talking Conservative party has decided that 7 May 2015 will be about whether it is right and proper that we can see the date of the next general election, so 8 May 2014 is what makes up the Labour party’s political fund? When the day when campaigning stops, when criticism stops, are we going to see the same from the other parties? when the charities have to shut up and when the trade When are they going to cough up? When are they going unions have to watch what they are doing. We will get to show us where their money comes from? We can see through the process of the Bill going to the Lords and why they would not want to do that. coming back here just before Christmas. It will then be This measure is just like yesterday’s in that it is about banged on the head and the Queen will put the stamp Government Members trying to shrink away from on it before 8 May 2014, so that Government Members accountability—the accountability that applies to those can try to hide from their liability for the state they have such as the TUC, the trade union movement, the Royal got this country into. It is not on. This measure is not British Legion, the Robin Hood tax campaign and the needed and it should be withdrawn. I will be supporting National Union of Students. This is the accountability the very moderate amendments that have been tabled that people demand of us and that they will want to by Labour’s Front-Bench team, but it must be said that demand of us coming up to an election, and it is right we are being led by the coalition, which is doing this for that they should do so. It is the mark of a civilised no other reason than self-interest, just as was the case society that we stand up and are accountable. Sometimes on other constitutional matters. They are trying it on in when we stand up we are found wanting and people get this way and if the measure gets through it will be a rid of us. Sometimes when we stand up we are not disgrace for democracy in this country. found wanting but they still get rid of us. That is called democracy and we should not be frightened of it. Jo Swinson: We have had a wide-ranging debate this Clearly, Government Members are frightened to stand afternoon on this string of amendments. At some points up and be made accountable. it might have resembled more of a part 3 stand part debate, but we have certainly discussed clause 36 stand Andrew Gwynne: Do the current regulations governing part and the amendments, and I hope to address the the trade union movement, which were so eloquently points that have been made. set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), not mean that few organisations are as It is important that union activity and decisions transparent and open as the trade unions in the United reflect the will of members. Knowing who their members Kingdom? are and being able to engage them is fundamental to unions’ democratic accountability. Mr Anderson: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, as there is absolutely no doubt about what Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Will the Minister he says. I do not think that any Government Member give way? has said that it is not the case. The one Government Member who made a serious contribution was the hon. Jo Swinson: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who spoke we are almost four hours into the debate and I want to about whether this measure should be more restrictive. make a little progress. I will then be happy to take some Although I would not agree with his view, he was interventions, particularly from Members who have not making the point that we have something in place. He been able to be in the Chamber for the whole debate. 1047 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1048 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Unions are already required to keep an accurate and been, due to an oversight. It should have been there last up-to-date list of their members. Indeed, many hon. week, of course. The situation has been rectified—that Members from all parties have talked about how that is was done shortly after the issue was raised in the House. an important requirement and how it is in the interests For the benefit of the Committee, let me cite the impact of members. Many unions serve a large and diverse assessment. Using the best estimate figures that have membership across different employers, job types and been put together, the assessment identifies that the regions, and of course we all know that unions can take combined annual total cost of producing the membership action that may have widespread consequences beyond audit certificates across all 166 unions will be £461,225—less the immediate members of the organisations. That is than half a million pounds and, as has already been why it is reasonable that the Government should examine mentioned, about 6p per union member. At present, the the formal requirements for the unions’ responsibility certification officer can investigate only in response to a to keep their membership records accurate and up to complaint from a union member. Clause 36 and the date and that unions should be able visibly to demonstrate subsequent clauses are therefore an appropriate way to that they know who their members are and that they give union members and the general public greater can communicate with them. confidence that the list is representative. Of course, accurate membership records are essential to ensuring proper democratic representation and, of 4.45 pm course, they are important for administrative efficiency, particularly when a postal vote is necessary. Good Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I am listening carefully membership records make that process much easier. Of as the Minister sets out her stall and I noted that she course, members need to be confident that the activity agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Luton their union undertakes is representative of the view and North (Kelvin Hopkins) about the effectiveness of the wishes of its members generally. For example, if there current processes. What problem is she trying to solve, has been a low turnout in a postal ballot on general and what is the evidence that there is a problem? executive positions, members should be confident that that is because some people are choosing not to vote Jo Swinson: It is has been interesting that various and not because they have in some way been disfranchised. hon. Members have highlighted some of the difficulties As union activity can also affect everybody’s daily lives, faced by unions when trying to keep large lists up to it is important that the general public can have confidence date, given the extent of churn. We recognise that that the unions’ actions are also based on a representative considerable efforts are made, but that is a difficulty, so view of their members. we want to reassure the public, union members and This is a relatively modest measure to give such others in workplaces that proper processes are in place confidence and assurance. I agree that membership lists to make that happen. We are trying to plug a specific are important, a point that has been made by many gap— Members. As unions are already undertaking activity to try to ensure that the lists are up to date, it should not Andrew Gwynne: Will the Minister give way? be a particularly onerous obligation to demonstrate that they have procedures in place to keep those lists up Jo Swinson: I hope that the hon. Gentleman understands to date. why I wish to finish my response to the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) before I give way again. Kelvin Hopkins: Labour Members have made the Our modest and reasonable measure is a specific point that the certification officer ensures that trade response to that gap, but it has given rise to a bit of unions keep their records up to date. I spent 23 years of hyperbole throughout the debate. my life working in the trade union movement. They are the most rigorously democratic and the best administered Andrew Gwynne: I am grateful to the Minister for organisations that I have ever seen. The hon. Lady ought giving way, but in what I can describe only as her rather to recognise that. waffling answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), she failed to identify exactly Jo Swinson: I certainly recognise that trade unions what the problem is and why the measures are required. play an important part in our national life, both in the Will she tell the Committee what evidence she has to workplace and more widely, and that they are a positive show that there is a problem? force in our communities. I also recognise that there is already significant regulation in place. That said, however, Jo Swinson: If that is how the hon. Gentleman describes there is a requirement to keep lists of members accurate my answer to his hon. Friend, I would be interested to and up to date, but the certification officer does not hear how he would describe several of the speeches we have the full powers to ensure that that happens except heard during the debate. when they are responding to a particular complaint. Trade unions have a significant impact on the lives of That is the very narrow issue that these clauses, and people in our country. We want to ensure that their particularly clause 36, are designed to address. membership lists are up to date, and everyone has an Before I take further interventions, let me mention interest in that being achieved. As hon. Members have the impact assessment. A full impact assessment was said, we know that that can often be a challenging published, submitted to the Regulatory Policy Committee process, for good reasons, so we want to provide assurance and made available on gov.uk from 3 September. It was that it will happen. informed by evidence collected during targeted consultation Clause 36 will give wide assurance that unions know over the summer. I apologise to the Committee that that how to contact their members so that their decisions was not placed in the Vote Office when it should have will reflect what their members want. We do not want to 1049 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1050 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Jo Swinson] organisations. The trade unions have their particular tailored regime, which is appropriate. We would not change the vital and positive role that unions play in necessarily want the same regime to apply to charities, society, but we do want to give confidence in their trade unions and political parties. It is appropriate that accountability. we have systems in place that deal with those particular Under section 24 of the Trade Union and Labour organisations. Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, unions have to I said that I would give way to the hon. Member for ensure that their lists of members’ names and postal North Down—apologies for getting the constituency addresses is accurate and up to date name wrong. “so far as is reasonably practicable”. That section allows any union member to find out Lady Hermon: I am grateful to the Minister for whether there is an entry relating to him or her and to putting me in my right place in North Down. She has see a copy of the information. Clause 36 builds on that given the impression in her contribution this afternoon by making unions give the certification officer an annual that the clause is just a tidying-up operation. If it is that, membership audit certificate alongside the annual return what consultation have the Government had with the that they already submit. Clause 37 provides a union trade union movement? What efforts have been made to with more than 10,000 members will have to appoint an reassure the trade unions that this is just a small tidying-up independent assurer to produce the certificate, as well operation? as setting out what is required for that process, but clause 36 states what smaller unions with fewer than Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady raises a reasonable point. 10,000 members will have to do. They will be able to We carried out a targeted consultation exercise over the have a union officer sign off the certificate with a summer. We issued a discussion paper, to which we statement that, to the best of their knowledge, the received 42 responses. This goes to some of the points union has complied with its duties under section 24. I raised by the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). hope that the Committee will agree that that is a pretty Twenty-four of those responses were from trade unions, light-touch approach and that the duty is not onerous and a variety of employers, business organisations, and in the slightest. Of course, we expect that smaller unions local and devolved Administrations also responded. It will have a less complicated register, so it is reasonable was important that we did that. I meet regularly with that a union officer would know the content well enough the Trades Union Congress general secretary. I have to be able to make such a statement. met her to discuss issues surrounding the Bill and I am due to do so again. It is important to have that positive As the clause is designed to give widespread assurance, relationship. all unions of any size will have to let anyone who asks to see their most recent certificate to do so, for which they As I am responding to the hon. Lady, I will respond may charge a reasonable amount, if they want. The to the point that she raised earlier in an intervention certification officer will have to keep copies of all certificates about an aspect of the terminology—“reasonable hours” and to allow the public to look at them. Subsections (3) as opposed to “reasonable time”. The terms mean and (4) allow a trade union to fulfil the new duty on the same thing and there is no legal difference, but the behalf of its branches and require that federated unions phrase “reasonable hours” is copied from what the must comply with the new duty. Our aim is not to certification officer already has to do in making available change what unions should already be doing to maintain the union annual returns. In practice that will probably their membership data, but to get them to provide mean that they will be on the website, which will meet assurance of what they are doing to their members and that requirement. the public. Lady Hermon rose— Katy Clark rose— Jo Swinson: I will give way again to the hon. Lady, then I shall make progress as there are other groups of Lady Hermon rose— amendments that we will want to discuss.

Jo Swinson: I shall give way to the hon. Member for Lady Hermon: I am enormously grateful to the Minister North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and then to the for taking a second intervention from me. May I make a hon. Member for South Down. plea to the Government about drafting such a Bill? It is very difficult to make it comprehensible for those who Katy Clark: The Minister said that unions have some are not legally qualified. It is very poor drafting that influence and she is trying to give assurance. Does she clause 36 states: accept that trade unions and trade union members have “The Certification Officer must at all reasonable hours”, very little power in society compared with many other organisations, such as multinationals and other vested and that when we turn the page to proposed new interests? Does she not think it is inappropriate that she section 24ZE we see that an assurer is focusing on this area rather than trying to give all of “has a right of access at all reasonable times”. us more assurance that some of those other organisations May we please have some consistency in drafting? which hold massive power in society are brought into check? Jo Swinson: I have some sympathy with the point that the hon. Lady makes. Like her, I am not a lawyer— Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady raises a point that others [Interruption.] I apologise. I am certainly not a lawyer; have raised, which I will come to in my remarks about I am not sure what the hon. Lady’s background is. the regimes that are in place for different types of Legislation should be in plain English where possible, 1051 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1052 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill and that is something that I endeavour to advance that there is clearly a difference of opinion between within Government, but sometimes terms are taken both sides of the Committee on the reasonableness of from other pieces of legislation for very good reasons, the measure, but that is why the Government do not to create consistency. I appreciate the point that she support the amendments. The current arrangements makes. just do not give that assurance, because they rely on members proactively checking the register. Even if they Several hon. Members rose— do check the register, they cannot see all of it and they do not know whether other names and addresses are up Jo Swinson: I said that I would make progress. I shall to date; and nor would they know who should and do that and then take some more interventions. should not be on the register. It is worth noting that there are also obligations on Various Members have mentioned the difficulties of employers to provide information. If an employer has tracking membership. Indeed, the Engineering Employers recognised a union, they are already required to provide Federation has commented that trade unions the union with information that is relevant for collective “do not have a unified way of tracking membership and it bargaining and good industrial relations practice. We remains difficult for them to do so”. plan to provide guidance for employers in relation to The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development the information that they hold that will assist unions said that with meeting their new obligations. “Unions have stated difficulties at times maintaining the addresses As has been outlined, there may be circumstances in of members”. which an employer has more information than the Amendment 104 would allow for delaying the submission union on the names and addresses of employees who of a membership audit certificate if the union were may be union members. For example, if a union member appealing. I absolutely understand that unions do not has their work address as a contact and the workplace want an assurer to send mistakenly or maliciously a moves, the member might forget to notify the union. qualified certificate to the certification officer without Making sure that there is better guidance on how employers their knowing about it, but I believe that the amendment can assist unions to comply with all the requirements is is unnecessary and hope to give some reassurance why. an important part of what we are looking to do. The current drafting states that the assurer will send the I have covered clause 36 in principle. Before I come to copy of the membership audit certificate to the certification the specific amendments, I will give way to the hon. officer only after it is provided to the union, which Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran). means that the union will already have seen the certificate and had that opportunity to talk with the assurer. Of Mr Doran: Everything the Minister has mentioned so course, it is worth noting that it is the union that will far could be done within the existing system and without appoint the assurer, and it has every ability within the applying this further layer of bureaucracy. Is she aware agreement it makes in appointing an assurer to say that of the cost of accountants these days? For a union such it would like the opportunity to see the certificate and as Unison, which has over 1 million members, auditing comment before it is sent off. the membership would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. The figures in the impact assessment are laughable. John McDonnell: I think that most of us are still mystified about the objectives of the clause, so I will put Jo Swinson: I hope that I can give the hon. Gentleman one scenario to the Minister to test its purpose. The some reassurance. It is not a question of every single clause will enable someone who is not a trade union membership entry having to be audited; it is about the member—a member of the Conservative party, for process the union has in place for doing so. The certificate example—to contest the membership list. This is about needs to be provided to give assurance on that. He also communications between the union and its members, so said—a few Members mentioned this—that the proposed if the union in the run up to the next general election, powers somehow exist already, but they are actually say, sends out a letter to its members urging them to very narrowly drawn. The certification officer’s power vote for the Labour party, the Conservative party member, to investigate a complaint by an individual member who is not a member of a trade union, could contest the applies only to that individual’s membership record; it accuracy of the membership list and, in that way, undermine does not extend to other members in the organisation. the trade union’s ability to communicate with its members. Indeed, it does not give those who might not be a That is possible under this legislation, and it betrays its member of a trade union the ability to complain. Of purpose. course, a member might not know that there is a problem Jo Swinson: The certificate that will have been issued, with their records. Indeed, if they are not receiving and which will be available for any member of the information from the union, they might not know when public to look at, will show that the union has a proper there is a ballot for a committee, for example. process in place for maintaining its membership list. I will turn now to the specific amendments and That will give that assurance to anybody who looks at respond to some of the points that have been raised. it. It of course will not give the details of the names and Amendment 103 would remove the annual duty to addresses of the union members, as some Members provide a membership audit certificate. Instead, the seem to have suggested; it will simply give that assurance. certificate would need to be submitted only if a complaint were received by the certification officer and he thought Several hon. Members rose— that it was necessary. Amendment 121 would go along with amendment 103 by removing the duty to appoint Jo Swinson: I will make some progress, because many an assurer. I do not think that the amendments are points were raised in the debate, but I will give way useful, because they stop the key policy objective. I agree shortly. 1053 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1054 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Jo Swinson] My hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) made a powerful contribution. He mentioned Amendment 106 would mean that an individual who that social pressure can be applied to make people go wanted to see the membership audit certificate would on strike; those at the workplace who are not members have to pay the union’s administrative costs. That is not of a particular union may be affected by industrial necessary, because under the Bill a union providing the action. They might be an example of those who would certificate can do so for free or for a reasonable charge, like reassurance about the updating processes for the as it sees fit. The union can already obtain payment, so membership lists. the amendment is not necessary. I urge hon. Members, The right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne vainly perhaps, to withdraw their amendments. (John Healey) asked whether we would commit to The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) publishing legal advice. As he will know from his time raised specific questions about the certification officer as a Minister, the convention is that the Government do asking for powers. He referred to FOI requests. The not publish such advice. I am, of course, happy to give “one in, two out” measure will come from the general reassurance on his point. Clause 36 requires the provision stock of measures that BIS undertakes, although a of the certificate but will not contain information about significant burden is not being imposed. The hon. individual members, so the article 8 right to privacy is Gentleman asked whether the Government would give not breached. I am sure that when we discuss the next the certification officer additional resources. Yes, we group of amendments we will come to some of those intend to do so; we anticipate that three members of human rights, privacy and confidentiality issues. staff will be needed to make sure the role can be properly carried out. The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) said that data would be revealed in some way, but the 5pm confidentiality of members’ details will still be subject to data protection rules, the Human Rights Act and the I have to disagree with my hon. Friend the Member obligations of confidentiality in clause 37. for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who suggested that we should go significantly further in a whole range of ways. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John The issue is about giving confidence for the existing McDonnell) said that the provisions would displace duty to keep membership lists up to date; it is not about core union activity, but we should recognise that the political donations, funds or types of membership, as changes are modest. Unions are already required to my hon. Friend suggested it should be. I reiterate that keep the register of names and addresses and of course the current system is working well. There is a historically we will work with unions and others to ensure that there low level of industrial action at the moment, which is is a smooth transition to the new system, supported by helpful. appropriate guidance. The hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Analogies with other membership organisations were Qureshi) accused the Government of insulting the unions raised by various Members. As I outlined to the hon. and failing to recognise the benefits that they bring. I Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, charities are want to be absolutely clear, as I have been in previous regulated by the Charity Commission, which has widespread statements to the House, that I agree that unions play powers that focus on financial management because of an important role in the workplace through training the importance of donors and beneficiaries. The commission and representation. The media and a lot of the debate can carry out regular supervision and monitoring, including focus on industrial action, but that is not representative compliance visits. If a charity is under investigation, the of the role that trade unions play. All the provision does commission can freeze assets and suspend or remove is require an assurance that existing obligations to keep trustees. In the case of companies, the Companies Act members’ names and addresses up to date are properly provides the regulatory powers. The information has to undertaken. It is a reasonable and modest change that is include names and addresses and dates of membership, pretty hard to disagree with. and fines and penalties are in place for non-compliance with these duties. The IOD and the CBI are lobbying Katy Clark: Does the hon. Lady not accept that there organisations incorporated by royal charter, which means is a suspicion that the issue is about industrial action? If that the Privy Council is responsible for significant the assurer is to prepare for the audit and certification, aspects of their internal control. I doubt that unions surely that process could be challenged; it would be yet would think that those regulatory frameworks were another matter that could be brought up in the context appropriate to their unique status. Trade unions have a of an employer’s seeking an injunction to stop industrial unique set of powers. They have rights and obligations—for action of some sort. Is she not simply creating more example, the ability to take industrial action without avenues for litigation? financial liability for the consequences on those it affects. That is a special set of rights and it is therefore appropriate Jo Swinson: The short answer is no. The longer one is that they have a tailored set of regulations. that the case law is clear. As has been outlined in the The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) past two or three years, small and inadvertent errors said that it is hard to keep accurate records of a work that would not have affected the outcome of a ballot are force, particularly in sectors where they are very fluid, not grounds for an injunction, and it is right that that such as construction, where there is significant churn. I should continue. absolutely appreciate those points and agree with him. Katy Clark rose— That is why it is important that good procedures are in place to provide assurance that the lists are up to date. Jo Swinson: I want to make progress, because we That is qualified by the phrase, want to scrutinise other elements of the Bill today. “as far as reasonably practicable.” 1055 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1056 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill We will take into account the difficulties that are Question put, That the amendment be made. encountered. The Committee divided: Ayes 241, Noes 292. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North made a Division No. 84] [5.10 pm thoughtful contribution in which he made good points about previous problems with great swings in policy AYES direction from one Government to the next and the importance of trying to get agreement between the Abbott, Ms Diane Doyle, Gemma TUC and the CBI. There can often be common ground, Abrahams, Debbie Dromey, Jack Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dugher, Michael as we find through the agreements on, say, the agency Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Durkan, Mark worker regulations or the way in which such organisations Alexander, Heidi Eagle, Ms Angela are able to work together through institutions such as Allen, Mr Graham Edwards, Jonathan the Low Pay Commission. He thinks that we are demonising Anderson, Mr David Efford, Clive trade unions, but I respectfully disagree. Many companies Ashworth, Jonathan Elliott, Julie have very good relations with trade unions which play Austin, Ian Ellman, Mrs Louise an important and welcome role. He over-eggs the impact Bain, Mr William Engel, Natascha that this measure will have. Balls, rh Ed Esterson, Bill I have dealt with the consultation issue raised by the Banks, Gordon Evans, Chris Barron, rh Mr Kevin Farrelly, Paul hon. Member for Wansbeck. The hon. Member for Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr Frank Blaydon (Mr Anderson) made a number of points that Begg, Dame Anne Fitzpatrick, Jim mainly echoed others that had already been made and Benn, rh Hilary Flello, Robert that I think I have dealt with. I appreciate that I may not Benton, Mr Joe Flint, rh Caroline have satisfied every member of the Committee. None Berger, Luciana Flynn, Paul the less, I have set out why clause 36 should stand part Betts, Mr Clive Fovargue, Yvonne of the Bill and the amendments should be rejected. Blackman-Woods, Roberta Francis, Dr Hywel Blears, rh Hazel Gardiner, Barry Ian Murray: Thank you, Mr Sheridan, for chairing Blunkett, rh Mr David Gilmore, Sheila Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Glass, Pat this debate. Brennan, Kevin Glindon, Mrs Mary I thank all hon. Members who have spoken—my Brown, Lyn Godsiff, Mr Roger right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Goggins, rh Paul (John Healey) and my hon. Friends the Member for Brown, Mr Russell Goodman, Helen Blaydon (Mr Anderson), for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), Bryant, Chris Greatrex, Tom for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), for Hayes and Harlington Buck, Ms Karen Green, Kate (John McDonnell), for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), for Burnham, rh Andy Greenwood, Lilian Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) and for Leyton Byrne, rh Mr Liam Griffith, Nia Campbell, Mr Alan Gwynne, Andrew and Wanstead (John Cryer). We also heard from Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hain, rh Mr Peter two Government Members—the hon. Members for Champion, Sarah Hamilton, Mr David Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) and for Stevenage (Stephen Chapman, Jenny Hanson, rh Mr David McPartland). Clark, Katy Harman, rh Ms Harriet I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Minister, Clarke, rh Mr Tom Harris, Mr Tom but let me put on record that this is yet another case of a Coaker, Vernon Havard, Mr Dai Liberal Democrat doing the Tories’ dirty work for them Coffey, Ann Healey, rh John in this Chamber: again, that has been left to her. We are Connarty, Michael Hendrick, Mark Cooper, Rosie Hepburn, Mr Stephen over four hours into this debate and we have yet to hear Cooper, rh Yvette Hermon, Lady one bit of evidence for clause 36 being necessary or Corbyn, Jeremy Hillier, Meg what problem it is trying to remedy. The Minister has Crausby, Mr David Hilling, Julie said absolutely nothing about that. The TUC, the Creagh, Mary Hodge, rh Margaret certification officer, ACAS and BIS officials are still to Creasy, Stella Hodgson, Mrs Sharon produce any evidence at all about the problem in the Cruddas, Jon Hoey, Kate system that this clause is trying to remedy. Cryer, John Hood, Mr Jim Before we test the will of the Committee on amendment Cunningham, Alex Hopkins, Kelvin Cunningham, Mr Jim Hosie, Stewart 103, let me point out that Labour Members are saying Cunningham, Sir Tony Howarth, rh Mr George clearly that if there is a problem, the Government Curran, Margaret Hunt, Tristram should bring forward the evidence. The amendment Danczuk, Simon Irranca-Davies, Huw would say to the certification officer that if a complaint Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jackson, Glenda is made by any third party and he decides that it is David, Wayne James, Mrs Siân C. verifiable, he can then take the power, if he so wishes, to Davidson, Mr Ian Jamieson, Cathy instigate action under the clause. That is a very modest Davies, Geraint Jarvis, Dan change to a very draconian part of this ramshackle Bill. De Piero, Gloria Johnson, rh Alan Denham, rh Mr John Johnson, Diana Finally, I remind Members that we are not talking Dobbin, Jim Jones, Graham about trade unions in the round; we are talking about Dobson, rh Frank Jones, Helen the people who deliver the mail, serve in the shops, Docherty, Thomas Jones, Mr Kevan teach our children, care for the sick, look after the Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jones, Susan Elan elderly, clean our streets, assemble our cars and build Doran, Mr Frank Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald our houses. The Liberal Democrats should remember Doughty, Stephen Keeley, Barbara that and come into the Lobby to vote for amendment 103. Dowd, Jim Kendall, Liz 1057 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1058 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Khan, rh Sadiq Reynolds, Emma Bone, Mr Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lammy, rh Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan Bottomley, Sir Peter Glen, John Lavery, Ian Riordan, Mrs Linda Bradley, Karen Goodwill, Mr Robert Leslie, Chris Ritchie, Ms Margaret Brady, Mr Graham Gove, rh Michael Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Robertson, Angus Brake, rh Tom Graham, Richard Lewis, Mr Ivan Robertson, John Bray, Angie Grant, Mrs Helen Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brine, Steve Gray, Mr James Love, Mr Andrew Rotheram, Steve Brokenshire, James Green, rh Damian Greening, rh Justine Lucas, Caroline Roy, Mr Frank Brooke, Annette Lucas, Ian Roy, Lindsay Griffiths, Andrew Browne, Mr Jeremy MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Ruane, Chris Gummer, Ben Buckland, Mr Robert Mactaggart, Fiona Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Halfon, Robert Burley, Mr Aidan Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sarwar, Anas Hames, Duncan Burns, rh Mr Simon Malhotra, Seema Sawford, Andy Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mann, John Seabeck, Alison Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, Mr Mike Marsden, Mr Gordon Shannon, Jim Burstow, rh Paul Hands, Greg McCabe, Steve Sharma, Mr Virendra Byles, Dan Harper, Mr Mark McCarthy, Kerry Sheerman, Mr Barry Cairns, Alun Harrington, Richard McClymont, Gregg Shuker, Gavin Carmichael, Neil Harris, Rebecca McDonagh, Siobhain Skinner, Mr Dennis Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon McDonald, Andy Slaughter, Mr Andy Cash, Mr William Harvey, Sir Nick McDonnell, John Smith, rh Mr Andrew Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Angela Chope, Mr Christopher Hayes, rh Mr John McGovern, Alison Smith, Nick Clappison, Mr James Heald, Oliver McGovern, Jim Smith, Owen Clark, rh Greg Heath, Mr David McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Spellar, rh Mr John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heaton-Harris, Chris McKenzie, Mr Iain Stringer, Graham Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John McKinnell, Catherine Stuart, Ms Gisela Coffey, Dr Thérèse Henderson, Gordon Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Herbert, rh Nick Meale, Sir Alan Tami, Mark Colvile, Oliver Mearns, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Hinds, Damian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Miliband, rh Edward Thornberry, Emily Hollingbery, George Crabb, Stephen Miller, Andrew Timms, rh Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Crouch, Tracey Moon, Mrs Madeleine Trickett, Jon Holloway, Mr Adam Davey, rh Mr Edward Morden, Jessica Turner, Karl Hopkins, Kris Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Twigg, Derek Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin Morris, Grahame M. Twigg, Stephen (Monmouth) Howell, John (Easington) Umunna, Mr Chuka Davies, Glyn Hughes, rh Simon Mudie, Mr George Vaz, rh Keith de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Munn, Meg Vaz, Valerie Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Watson, Mr Tom Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Murphy, rh Paul Watts, Mr Dave Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Murray, Ian Weir, Mr Mike Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Nandy, Lisa Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Onwurah, Chi Williams, Hywel Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Osborne, Sandra Williamson, Chris Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Owen, Albert Wilson, Phil Ellis, Michael Johnson, Joseph Paisley, Ian Winnick, Mr David Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Pearce, Teresa Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Wishart, Pete Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Kawczynski, Daniel Phillipson, Bridget Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Evans, Graham Pound, Stephen Kelly, Chris Wright, David Evans, Jonathan Qureshi, Yasmin Kirby, Simon Wright, Mr Iain Evans, Mr Nigel Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Knight, rh Mr Greg Evennett, Mr David Reed, Mr Jamie Tellers for the Ayes: Kwarteng, Kwasi Fabricant, Michael Reed, Mr Steve Tom Blenkinsop and Laing, Mrs Eleanor Farron, Tim Reeves, Rachel Nic Dakin Lamb, Norman Featherstone, Lynne Lancaster, Mark Field, Mark NOES Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Latham, Pauline Afriyie, Adam Barwell, Gavin Fox,rhDrLiam Laws, rh Mr David Amess, Mr David Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Andrew, Stuart Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Lee, Jessica Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bellingham, Mr Henry Freer, Mike Lee, Dr Phillip Benyon, Richard Fullbrook, Lorraine Bacon, Mr Richard Leech, Mr John Berry, Jake Fuller, Richard Baker, Norman Lefroy, Jeremy Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Sir Edward Leslie, Charlotte Baker, Steve Binley, Mr Brian Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Baldwin, Harriett Blackman, Bob Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Barclay, Stephen Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Barker, rh Gregory Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Baron, Mr John Boles, Nick Gilbert, Stephen Lidington, rh Mr David 1059 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1060 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Clause 37 Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee DUTYTOAPPOINTANASSURERETC Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Ian Murray: I beg to move amendment 107, page 39, Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Sir Richard line 7, at end add— Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris ‘, and Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe (c) to have a duty of confidentiality to the trade union and McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry its members; and McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian (d) to abide at all times by the trade union’s obligations McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Sir Robert under the Data Protection Act 1998 to protect the McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas information of members.’. McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John The Temporary Chair (Jim Sheridan): With this it will Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew be convenient to discuss the following: Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Amendment 108, page 39, line 16, at end insert— Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain ‘(3A) The conditions set out in an order under Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Rory subsection (3)(a) shall include the qualifications, status and Mordaunt, Penny Streeter, Mr Gary experience an assurer requires in order to qualify under that Morgan, Nicky Stride, Mel subsection.’. Morris, Anne Marie Stuart, Mr Graham Amendment 110, page 39, leave out lines 29 to 35 and Morris, James Stunell, rh Sir Andrew insert— Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Mowat, David Swales, Ian ‘(1) The appointment and removal of an assurer will be Mulholland, Greg Swayne, rh Mr Desmond conducted as per the specification in section 49(1) and section Mundell, rh David Swinson, Jo 49(5) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Munt, Tessa Swire, rh Mr Hugo Act 1992.’. Murray, Sheryll Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Amendment 109, page 39, line 46, at end insert— Newmark, Mr Brooks Teather, Sarah ‘(e) The person has breached the confidentiality of the Newton, Sarah Thornton, Mike Trade Union, or Nokes, Caroline Thurso, John (f) The person is in breach of his statutory duty or the Norman, Jesse Timpson, Mr Edward Nuttall, Mr David terms of his appointment, by reason of incapacity or Tomlinson, Justin for any other reason which in the reasonable opinion O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Tredinnick, David of the union justifies his removal, or Ollerenshaw, Eric Truss, Elizabeth (g) There are any other reasonable circumstances where Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Ottaway, Richard the continuation of the assurer would be deemed Tyrie, Mr Andrew inappropriate.’. Paice, rh Sir James Uppal, Paul Parish, Neil Vaizey, Mr Edward Amendment 111, page 40, line 12, leave out from Patel, Priti Vara, Mr Shailesh ‘opinion,’ to ‘for’ in line 14 and insert— Penning, Mike Vickers, Martin ‘the trade union secured, so far as is reasonably practicable, that Penrose, John Walker, Mr Charles the entries in the register were accurate and up-to-date.’. Percy, Andrew Perry, Claire Wallace, Mr Ben Amendment 112, page 40, line 19, at end insert— Phillips, Stephen Watkinson, Dame Angela ‘(c) Whether, in the assurer’s opinion, the trade union has Pickles, rh Mr Eric Webb, Steve taken all reasonable steps to ensure their membership Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James register is up to date taking into account— Poulter, Dr Daniel Wheeler, Heather (i) that the union should not be held responsible for Pugh, John White, Chris inaccuracies in cases where, in the assurer’s Raab, Mr Dominic Whittaker, Craig opinion, an employer is not sharing timely and Randall, rh Mr John Whittingdale, Mr John accurate details, and Reckless, Mark Wiggin, Bill (ii) any other aspects that, in the assurer’s opinion, Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Mr Mark have been out of the control of the trade union in Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Roger the maintenance of the membership register.’. Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Stephen Amendment 166, page 40, line 29, at end insert— Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williamson, Gavin Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob ‘(4A) The Secretary of State will determine the definition of Robertson, rh Hugh Wright, Jeremy “satisfactory” and “not satisfactory” in this section and produce guidance for assurers.’. Robertson, Mr Laurence Wright, Simon Rogerson, Dan Yeo, Mr Tim Amendment 116, page 41, line 1, leave out from Rosindell, Andrew Young, rh Sir George ‘union’s’ to ‘such’ in line 2 and insert ‘data controller’. Rudd, Amber Amendment 115, page 41, line 4, at end insert— Ruffley, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: Russell, Sir Bob Mr Robert Syms and ‘(c) has the right to make a reasonable request to any Rutley, David Jenny Willott employer for information that the assurer considers necessary for the performance of the assurer’s functions.’. Question accordingly negatived. Amendment 117, page 41, line 4, at end insert— Clause 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill. ‘() where this does not conflict with the union’s responsibilities as set down by the Information Commissioner.’. 1061 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1062 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Amendment 119, page 41, line 25, at beginning insert— the certification officer’s staff, or an investigator that ‘(za) to comply with duties owed by him under the Data might be appointed by the certification officer—is covered Protection Act 1998, and’. by existing data protection law and the European convention Amendment 118, page 41, line 28, leave out ‘all on human rights. That was a timely intervention, as it is reasonable steps’ and insert ‘all steps necessary’. important to run through the schedules to the Data Protection Act and relate them directly to our amendments, Amendment 120, page 41, leave out lines 34 to 39. and the overlaying of clause 37 and other clauses in Clause stand part. part 3. Schedule 1 of the Data Protection Act lists the data Ian Murray: I know you thoroughly enjoyed the protection principles in the following terms. I realise debate on the previous group of amendments, Mr Sheridan, this is slightly technical, but it is worth running through so it is great to see you in the Chair in this debate. I them to ensure that we have got it absolutely right. thank the Minister for her apology on the impact assessment. We had a committee meeting during the “Personal data shall be processed fairly and lawfully and, in particular, shall not be processed unless— Division and have decided to accept her apology, even if the impact assessment arrived in the Vote Office at (a) at least one of the conditions in Schedule 2 is met…”— 1.53 pm—we understand that that is the official time I will come back to that a little later, and, crucially, recorded. that— Amendments 107, 116, 117, 119 and 120 address the “(b) in the case of sensitive personal data, at least one of the concerns of trade unions, the Political and Constitutional conditions in Schedule 3 is also met.” Reform Committee, lawyers, trade unionists and It is a condition of schedule 2 that, because trade union organisations such as Liberty, which believe that clause 37 membership is classed as sensitive personal data it has could result in the improper use of sensitive material to have a category in schedule 3 too. Sensitive data and accidental disclosure. It also raises questions, as my includes trade union membership, so we have to take hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) that category into account overriding schedule 2. mentioned in his contribution on the previous group Interestingly, section 4 of schedule 1 to the Act states of amendments, about international law, specifically clearly that articles 8 and 11 of the European convention on human “Personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up rights. to date.” Amendments 107 and 119 place a legal duty and This is a strong requirement of the Act and in this obligation to provide total confidentiality and an express context trade unions must abide by that condition as a statutory duty of that confidentiality for the assurer, in data controller. There is already a strong obligation on addition to the oblique references already in proposed trade unions under the current legislation, the Trade section 24ZF.The assurer should therefore have a statutory Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992—I duty of confidentiality to the union and, more importantly, wish there was a shorter way of saying that—to keep the union’s membership. The amendments also ensure membership lists up to date. We have discussed that at that the assurer agrees not to engage in conduct likely to length this afternoon in terms of legislation already in lead to a breach of a union’s obligations under the Data place to deal with many of the issues that the Minister Protection Act 1998. deems to be a problem that have to be dealt with in the It should be noted that union membership is in the Bill. significant category of sensitive personal data. It is not Appropriate technical and organisational measures known how far the Department for Business, Innovation should be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing and Skills has consulted the Information Commissioner’s of personal data, and against accidental loss, destruction office on the Bill. There is a significant risk that the of, or damage to, personal data. That accidental loss union might be held accountable for breaches by the could be a significant hurdle when being processed by assurer. Will the Minister address what discussions independent assurers or independent investigators appointed she has had with the Information Commissioner’s office by the certification officer, is a key concern for many on the new assurer position, and what its thoughts were stakeholders. The responsibility for the data under the on the ability of trade unions to both comply with the Data Protection Act lies with the data controller at the Data Protection Act 1998 and be responsible as the trade union. They will be responsible for the actions data holder to an assurer who, by nature of the definition of independent bodies looking at that trade union’s of the Bill, is independent from that data controller in membership list. terms of the trade union? The 1998 Act is clear and it may be worth considering this issue in detail, Mr Sheridan. 5.30 pm When one overlays the Data Protection Act with the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) That is a genuine concern, of which the Political Act 1992, we can see how unnecessary the proposed and Constitutional Reform Committee stated in its changes are. recommendations: “The Government must address these concerns during the Andrew Gwynne: Is it not the case that my hon. course of proceedings on the Bill.” Friend’s amendment is necessary to make it clear in the I do not think they have, which is the reason for some of Bill that the assurer picks up the union’s responsibilities our amendments in this grouping. As we have said, to protect its personal data? trade union membership falls under “sensitive personal data”, which means personal data consisting of information Ian Murray: That is exactly the purpose of all our about many aspects of a person, including—these are amendments to clause 37: to ensure that any independent the important aspects for this Bill—their political opinions person, as described in the Bill—whether the assurer, and whether they are a member of a trade union, within 1063 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1064 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill the meaning of the Trade Union and Labour Relations decision taken by this House back in February, after (Consolidation) Act 1992. The presumption is that because the Opposition day debate on blacklisting, to instigate information about such matters could be used in a an inquiry, release the information held by the Information discriminatory fashion and is likely to be of a private Commissioner’s Office about the victims of blacklisting nature, it needs to be treated with greater care than and look at a compensation package for those on the other personal data. The nature of those data is also a blacklists? factor in deciding what security is appropriate in securing them. That is the purpose of amendments 116 and 117. Andrew Gwynne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way. Is not the nub of the Julie Elliott: Does my hon. Friend agree that if our issue—which I think he is coming to—that although the amendments dealing with this issue are not accepted, purpose of clause 37 is to increase transparency and there is a danger that such sensitive information, as confidence among the general public, it is likely to have classified by the Data Protection Act, will become much the opposite effect for trade union members? If they felt more vulnerable? that their personal data were at risk of falling into the wrong hands, that would have the opposite impact on Ian Murray: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly union membership. good point. One of the key aspects of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 is to Ian Murray: It absolutely would. Given the evidence ensure that trade unions’ membership lists are up to of blacklisting that has emerged over the past few years, date. The current categories are set out in sections 24(1) particularly in relation to the inquiry by the Scottish and (2) of the 1992 Act—my hon. Friend the Member Affairs Select Committee, it would be perfectly reasonable for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) spoke about them a few to assume either that someone might not wish to join a hours ago—which contain provisions to ensure that trade union, or that an existing member might wish to anyone unhappy with their personal data being held by leave, on the ground that their membership could affect the trade union can apply to the certification officer for their employment prospects. That matter has not been a ruling on whether those data should be held. There dealt with in the Bill, as a result of the slapdash way in are therefore already strict rules about the data, which is which it has been put together and placed before the right, given, say, blacklisting and whether data on trade House. union membership become an issue. The Data Protection Act imposes strict conditions The purpose of amendments 116 and 117 is to restrict for processing sensitive personal data. Anyone processing data collection in a trade union to collection from the such data must satisfy one of more of the conditions for data controller only. The data controller can subsequently processing that apply specifically to such sensitive data, obtain the required information from individual branches as well as one of the general conditions that apply in or sections, as mentioned in the Bill, but the responsibility every case relating to non-sensitive data. It is arguable for that must come from the data controller of the that the Bill does not satisfy those conditions, which union, who has the legal obligations both under the Data merely emphasises how incompatible it is with the Data Protection Act and their responsibilities to the Information Protection Act. Commissioner. Inquiries to other centres makes the job The conditions in schedule 3 of the Act for processing of the data controller near impossible. Trade unions sensitive personal data are as follows. First, it is necessary manage their membership data carefully; that should be for the data subject to have explicitly maintained in the Bill. “given his explicit consent to the processing of the personal Such considerations have given rise to a fear that data.” part 3, and clause 37 in particular, could result in a new The members would therefore have to consent explicitly, scandal of people being blacklisted for being members of meaning that the assurer would have to contact all the a trade union. That is the reasoning behind amendment 120, members on the membership list, should they require which would restrict disclosure of a member’s data to the data. That would surely be impractical and, as my where the member had consented—that is, given explicit hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) consent under the Data Protection Act—and the said earlier, a requirement that the assurer contact investigation of criminal proceedings. The list of other everyone to obtain their explicit consent would impose such circumstances set out in clause 37 is unhelpful in an onerous burden of cost and bureaucracy on the dealing with people’s data protection concerns and the trade unions. blacklisting issues that might arise. Proposed new section 24ZG(3) of the 1992 Act, as set out in clause 37, is too The second condition in the Act states that the processing widely drafted and creates other legal responsibilities should be that the data controller might not be able to meet. “necessary for the purposes of exercising or performing any right or obligation which is conferred or imposed by law on the data In the last couple of years we have seen the increasing controller in connection with employment.” exposure of blacklisting activities in some sectors, in which individuals have concerns about joining a trade Unless I am mistaken, however, the proposal in the Bill union for fear of victimisation at work and loss of has nothing to do with employment law. The third employment. Increasing powers for state officials to condition states that the processing must be necessary access union membership records and addresses can “(a) in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject or only increase the deterrent against such activities. May I another person, in a case where— respectfully suggest to the Minister that, rather than (i) consent cannot be given by or on behalf of the data subject, increasing the regulation of trade unions through this or Bill—which might increase the risk of blacklisting—the (ii) the data controller cannot reasonably be expected to obtain Government should take active steps to abide by the the consent of the data subject”. 1065 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1066 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Murray] the Conservative party? Given that the RAC is a membership organisation, would it be covered by this That should not apply in the case of a trade union legislation? member. The processing must also be necessary “in order to protect the vital interests of another person, in a case Ian Murray: My hon. Friend makes an interesting where consent by or on behalf of the data subject has been observation. No, the RAC would not be covered by unreasonably withheld.” part 3, which deals exclusively with trade union membership. I would imagine that, in relation to trade union membership, In our lengthy debate on the preceding group of those conditions could be satisfied fairly easily. It is not amendments, we found that the Conservative party will clear that any of the proposed process is designed to not even tell us how many members it has, despite the protect the individual. It could therefore be argued that fact that it could well be argued that it has a major the Government have failed to tell us what problem they vested interest in public opinion and how the laws of are trying to resolve, and what process they are trying to this country are determined. Should not the Conservative protect. party therefore be obliged to tell us how many members The fourth condition states that the processing must it has and whether or not its membership lists are be carried out by a not-for-profit organisation and accurate? That seems to be falling on deaf ears with should not involve disclosing personal data to a third the Government. I pressed Members from across the party unless the individual consents. Extra limitations Committee to provide a figure on Conservative party apply to this condition, in that individual consents are membership, but it has still to come forward. required for disclosure to a third party. Will the Minister tell us whether the assurer or the certification officer are Ian Mearns rose— third parties? Would any investigator appointed by the certification officer be deemed to be a third party, given The Temporary Chairman (Jim Sheridan): Order. I that they are deemed in the legislation to be independent? remind the Committee that we must stick to debating That would not be compatible with the responsibility of clause 37; we seem to be wandering away from it. the data controller in the trade union. In addition to those conditions in the Data Protection Ian Murray: Thank you, Mr Sheridan. I shall certainly Act, regulations set out several other conditions for try not to wander off topic. processing sensitive personal data. Their effect is to It is worth pondering the question of the compatibility permit such processing for a range of other purposes— of these provisions with the European convention on typically, those cases that are substantially in the public human rights. A vast number of organisations, including interest and that must necessarily be carried out without the well-respected organisation Liberty, has raised that the explicit consent of the individual. The Government issue. Liberty believes that part 3 should be removed in would have to put up a strong argument to convince us its entirety, and I could not agree more. It believes the that checking a trade union’s membership list was proposals breach article 11 on freedom of assembly and substantially in the public interest, and I cannot see association, which takes us back to the intervention of how the provisions in part 3 of the Bill can be deemed my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish to be fulfil those conditions. It is difficult to construct a (Andrew Gwynne) who was worried about the impact public interest test in relation to the annual membership of this part of the Bill on trade union members, and list of a trade union. The nature of the consent required article 8. For many individuals, membership of a trade to satisfy the condition for processing sensitive data union is a deeply private choice. must be explicit. The Act particularly mentions the word “explicit”, yet it is not mentioned in the proposed new clause in the Bill. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend accept that if there is a breach of the We have tabled amendment 108 to ensure that the European convention, it would be open to trade union assurer is a person of suitable calibre. The Secretary of members to take a case to the European Court of State should explicitly set out regulations to ensure that Human Rights against the UK Government on the the assurer can demonstrate a strong knowledge of and basis that their freedom of assembly has been denied? previous compliance with the Data Protection Act and other regulations relating to data protection. Our Ian Murray: That is essentially what Liberty is pointing amendment 109 provides for the removal of an assurer out in its contribution, which I think is a valid and if they are in breach of any of the confidentiality strong one. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member conditions, or if the trade union has any reason to for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) when we believe that it would be inappropriate for them to debated clause 36 that this is probably what the Government remain in post. Amendment 118 would raise the bar on want to do—they want to wrap trade unions up in their confidentiality, requiring the assurer to take “all steps own membership lists and taking legal action about necessary”, instead of the present “all reasonable steps”, them, as well as having to deal with the assurer and to secure obligations under the Data Protection Act certification officer, rather than getting on with the job and other legislation. that their members pay their membership fees for, which Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The inherent reason is to represent them in the workplace. Both those issues for legislation and regulation of trade unions seems to are valid and might be a consequence of this part of be that some of those unions donate money to the the Bill. Labour party, but can my hon. Friend find any provisions I was saying that for many individuals, membership within this Bill that impose similar regulations on of a trade union is a deeply private choice—one that organisations such as the United and Cecil Club or they wish to keep confidential for perfectly legitimate the Royal Automobile Club, which donate money to reasons, whether they be about blacklisting or otherwise. 1067 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1068 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Part 3 and clause 37 in particular open up the possibility “at present complaints to the Certification Officer (CO) about the that these confidential matters could be made public. register can only be made by trade union members and no-one For example, Liberty referred to a recent case in which else. In addition, members only have a right to see whether and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs decided to suspend how their own details are recorded. This means it is difficult for members to make a complaint in relation to the accuracy of the its dispute with Equity about providing personal membership register as a whole.” information relating to its members. Wide-ranging powers Liberty rightly argues that that is not a legitimate aim, for the certification officer are, according to Liberty’s as the position is already adequately covered by current lawyers, incompatible with article 8 of the European legislation, and convention on human rights. “the independent scrutineer” On the power to request other documents, Liberty states: —for whom the Bill also provides— “is required to examine the entirety of register of their own “The documents of which the CO, authorised persons and volition and report any issues to the union.” inspectors can order production is very wide; it will potentially include matters such as…private correspondence between a union That brings us back to the arguments relating to and its members (e.g. about a member’s affiliation to a political clause 36. Again, these provisions already exist in the fund; membership of an internal section of a union combating Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) discrimination; communications about internal grievances within Act 1992. The same reasoning lies behind amendment 110, an employer) and…internal union communications with its which aligns clause 37 and provision for the appointment membership, such as membership campaigns and industrial action.” and removal of assurers—which was mentioned by my These are all matters that an individual would hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak understandably want to keep private, but the Government (Steve McCabe)—with the obligations conferred on proposals will open these up to bodies and individuals scrutineers by section 49(1) of the Act. Any individual who have no duty of confidentiality to the trade union challenge to the regulator must involve investigation of itself, which legally holds the data. the accuracy of the register as a whole, not just the Additionally, future employees may be put off from member’s own incorrect entry. The current framework joining a trade union, as we have already heard this in section 24 of the Act allows for that. evening, in the knowledge that the union could be required to provide their membership register to a Andrew Gwynne: Does not the scenario that my hon. Government body for “any good reason”, which appears Friend is setting out throw yet another potential problem in the Bill. That emphasises the point about blacklisting into the mix? Would it not start to undermine the and the strong arguments over freedom of association perceived neutrality of certification officers by dragging and trade union membership. them into industrial disputes from which they have so There are three tests for determining whether an far been excluded? interference with the rights in article 11 is justified. This precedent was set in The Sunday Times v. the UK case. Ian Murray: That is a legitimate point. I do not know It is justified first where the interference corresponds to whether my hon. Friend was present during the last a pressing social need; secondly, according to whether debate, but I can tell him that the certification officer it is figures are pretty stark. There have been 10 determinations “proportionate to the legitimate aim pursued”; since 1987, none in the last eight years and six between 2000 and 2004, of which five were dismissed and the and, thirdly, according to whether the reasons given by sixth did not even constitute a formal determination. A the national authority to justify it are “relevant and new, erroneous part of the Bill could easily cause a sufficient”. Liberty believes that the changes proposed certification officer to be dragged into a position that in part 3 do not pass those tests and that clause 37 does affected his neutrality—which, incidentally, trade unions little or nothing to provide reassurance, and it is the and their members respect. Unions and certification driver of our amendment. officers work closely together, and certification officers 5.45 pm are always keen to make the point that they are not opposed to each other, but share the aim of ensuring Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Given that unions operate correctly and within the law. the seriousness of the duty that is imposed on assurers, Let me now deal with the proportionality issue that I wonder what penalty might be incurred by an assurer arose from the case relating to article 11 of the European who deliberately or negligently failed to observe his convention on human rights. Liberty states that the responsibilities in respect of confidentiality. current regime satisfies the requirement that scrutiny be Ian Murray: Under the Bill as it stands, the assurer undertaken to ensure public confidence in the status of can be removed, but owing to the weakness of the any register, and that the current measures to undertake provisions relating to data protection, it is not clear that scrutiny are proportionate. whether he can be automatically removed if he does not The increased powers of the certification officer are abide by the Data Protection Act. Perhaps the Minister also disproportionate. First, it may invoke its increased will be able to answer that question. Our amendments powers if it thinks there is good reason to do so. That is are intended to give trade unions the power to remove very broadly drawn, and what constitutes a good reason an independent assurer if they feel that he is causing a in any case? Might it be a vexatious claim from a trade union data controller to be in breach of his duties. national newspaper to the certification officer to have Let me now deal with the question of whether clause 37 a look at a particular membership list? That was the is compliant with article 11. The first issues that emerged driver behind our amendment 103 to the previous clause, from the Sunday Times v. United Kingdom case were which the Government have just rejected. “legitimate aim” and “pressing social need”. The Secondly, the certification officer can view not only Government’s discussion paper states: the register, but any other document that may be relevant 1069 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1070 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Ian Murray] membership list is accurate, it should be taken into account that the list will only be a snapshot of a to determining whether there is a breach of section 24(1) particular moment in time. It should be possible to of the 1992 Act and it can require people to give clearly state on the audit certificate that any inaccuracies explanations. are not the fault of the trade union and therefore the Thirdly and ultimately, under clause 37 as currently audit certificate is issued with that qualification. The written, the certification officer does not owe a duty of clause as currently drafted would not allow for that. confidentiality to the union. The addition of a third-party Importantly, for that process to operate correctly inspector would be particularly intrusive and that inspector the employers also have a duty of responsibility to the owes a duty of confidentiality only to the certification trade union membership audit certification process. officer, not the union. Amendment 115 would give the assurer the right to Liberty rightly concluded: access reasonable information from employers if it was determined that that information would be necessary “These measures clearly go beyond what is necessary and for the performance of the assurer in determining the proportionate to achieve any legitimate aim behind the proposals, if indeed there is one at all, and as such constitute a breach of accuracy of a membership list. It would also allow for Article 11 of the Convention.” access to data that may satisfy the assurer that the trade There is, indeed, a compelling argument to be made union has taken all reasonable steps in compiling the that clause 37 breaches article 11. The justification for membership register. Many unions have indicated that a that claim arises from the fact that there is already lack of information from employers provided in an legislation in place to deal with many of these issues. efficient manner is the main cause of the vast majority of inaccuracies in their membership lists. Giving the Amendments 111, 112, 166 and 115 are intended to assurer the powers to make reasonable requests to employers clarify the need for a trade union to take “all reasonable for information means that there can be confidence that steps” to ensure membership lists are accurate. We membership registers are indeed accurate. If anything discussed some of that language in our debate on the comes out of this process and this bad part of the Bill, it amendments to clause 36. This is completely consistent might be that the assurer, as an independent person, with obligations under the 1992 Act to take all reasonable could help the trade unions with some of those relationships steps. That language and responsibility should be reflected with the employers, to ensure that the data coming from in clause 37. There will be an inconsistency of language the employers make the lists that trade unions have far if we remove the reference to taking reasonable steps in more accurate. the 1992 Act and replace it with language that is more stringent on the trade unions. Ian Mearns: One wonders what thought is driving the The primary responsibility for the alterations to any Government to ask trade unions to do what the Bill membership list lies with the individual. That is already requires. I cannot for one moment see a situation where set out in section 24(1) of the Act. However, all too the Government would ask for the same accuracy in often a union member may move house, change jobs or electoral lists held by returning officers in particular even pass away and those details will not be passed on areas at any given time. It would be almost impossible to the union membership officer for recording in a to provide. The amount of bureaucracy and administration timely fashion. In some circumstances, it cannot be required to keep such lists up to date would be beyond reasonable for a trade union to be held wholly responsible the financial capability of most local authorities. for every part of a membership list. People can take a complaint to the certification officer resulting in an Ian Murray: That is a good comparison to make, in-depth investigation at great cost to both the public because I would bet that every one of the 166 trade purse and the trade unions, when the 1992 Act clearly unions registered with the certification officer in this states that the responsibility for ensuring the accuracy country has far better membership records than any of an individual’s data on a trade union membership electoral register held by an electoral office. That is not list lies with the individual, not the union. If the union a criticism of the valuation joint boards or local councils; has taken “all reasonable steps” to make sure that list is it is simply because people are transient and move in accurate, such a matter should not fall within the remit and out all the time, so it is impossible to keep a 100% of this Bill. accurate record. I would guess that the trade union It should be the case that the assurer can make a membership lists are far more accurate than such electoral determination that the union has, in so far as is reasonably registers. practicable, ensured the entries in the membership register Finally, I wish to deal with the rather unusual terminology are accurate. That is what amendments 111 and 112 used in clause 37. The word “satisfactory” appears in would achieve. They would give the assurer the power the proposed new section 24ZD(3) whereas the term to qualify the membership audit certificate to say that “not satisfactory” appears in the proposed subsection information from employers or members has not come (4). The use of that incredibly strange terminology forward in a timely fashion and the union has taken all could result in a lack of consistency and direction for steps to ensure the information is accurate. assurers. It only fuels the fire in terms of us thinking The issuing of any membership certificate will be that that this piece of legislation is designed either to based on information for just a snapshot in time of that create additional casework or additional case law as particular moment and day. We have learned from some of these issues are taken through the courts, or to the—late—impact assessment that about 9% or 10% of keep trade unions busy in the courts trying to justify trade union membership flows in or out of a trade what is “satisfactory” and what is “not satisfactory”. union at any given period. For a major trade union, that The Oxford English Dictionary defines satisfactory amounts to an awful lot of people to keep track of. If a as either union has taken “all reasonable steps” to ensure their “satisfying demands, expectations, or requirements; adequate” 1071 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1072 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill or “atoning” for one’s sins. I hope that the Liberal What qualifications will the assurers—classed as Democrat Minister will satisfactorily atone for her sins independent under these provisions—need? What will before the next general election—[Interruption.] I would make them qualified? Will it be that they are thoroughly be more than satisfied if she atones for her sins by decent people who dislike certain things or like other accepting our amendments on this part of the Bill or, things? We should remember that it will be incumbent indeed, deletes the clause altogether. on the trade union to do this under its rulebook. Just how badly this Bill is drafted is shown by the fact that it contains such wide definitions of a term that Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend is asking about the relates to its fundamental objective in terms of the requirements of the job specification and person production of a membership audit certificate. Will the specification for an assurer. It seems to me that they Minister, or indeed the Secretary of State, be determining must include the spite and vindictiveness reflected in by guidance what “satisfactory”and what “not satisfactory” the Government’s attitude to trade unions as seen in means in this context? Will the definitions of and guidance the Bill. on those two terms have them as exact polar opposites? It is important that that is made clear. Ian Lavery: Although I fully agree with my hon. I would term this entire clause 37 as not satisfactory, Friend, there are probably better ways of doing it. I fear in sympathy with what is not a very satisfactory Bill. I that again I am repeating myself, but everything the will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say assurer is supposed to do is carried out under the about the Data Protection Act, the significant and real TULR regulations. concerns about blacklisting, and the responses from lawyers from Liberty and various other organisations Julie Elliott: In my trade union, the rulebook can be about the inadequacies of this clause in respect of the changed only by a change of rule motion to congress, European convention on human rights. I ask hon. Members and a rule change congress happens every two years. to support our amendments. Has my hon. Friend any idea how my trade union—the GMB, one of the biggest trade unions—could comply Ian Lavery: Like most people in the Chamber, I am by making the change to the rulebook under the restrictions unaware of why we need assurers. The certification the Bill will place on it for the 12 months prior to a officer, under the trade union and labour relations— general election? TULR—regulations, clearly states that when a trade union submits its annual accounts, its AR21, it must Ian Lavery: It is up to a trade union and its membership also submit a copy of the names and addresses of the to decide what they want in that union’s rules. It should membership. I am puzzled—discombobulated, perhaps—by not be for Government diktat to insist what an independent the fact that the Government are suggesting that we trade union should and should not have in its rulebook— need somebody in the middle to ensure that that happens, surely that is undemocratic. Under the democratic process, because if a union does not submit its membership what should and should not be in a union’s rulebook is with its AR21, it is in big trouble with the certification decided at conferences following discussions among officer. delegates from the regions, not by the coalition Government. My hon. Friend raises an interesting point because if the Bill is passed, must the 166 trade unions on the 6pm certification officer’s website immediately call conferences I might be corrected on this, but—perhaps because so that they can adhere to the new legislation? What will he has not been consulted—the certification officer’s happen if they do not? website does not refer to whether many trade unions are submitting their accounts under the AR21 without Ian Murray: As always, my hon. Friend is making a submitting the names and addresses. Why on earth—please, fantastic contribution, but if he reads several of the somebody tell me why—are we now looking to operate qualifications in the impact assessment, he will see that with someone called an assurer? I am assured already, the strange thing is that the vast majority of the unions— Mr Sheridan. I worked in the trade union movement 120 or more—will self-certify their membership audit and greatly disliked all the regulations heaped on the certificates because they are so small. unions by the Conservative Government, but, as with everything else, we had to forge ahead. We adhered to Ian Lavery: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, the law. but it makes us ask why on earth the clauses are being I am puzzled. I am concerned about the fact that proposed in the first place. trade unions must amend their rulebooks to provide for Why are we having assurers and who are they likely to the appointment and removal of an assurer. Who are be? With their position layered between the trade union those assurers? Their job is simply to make sure that the movement and the certification officer, will they be union, as far as practicable, can provide what the Bill legally qualified? Will they be lawyers or, as is likely, requires in terms of the names and addresses of members. accountants, or will they just be thoroughly decent For fear of repeating myself, I am just desperate for an people? Will they simply be independent people? Could answer. There is no need for it. they be people in this House? We need to examine this extra layer of bureaucracy. There is no need for it Nic Dakin: Is my hon. Friend as perplexed as I am whatsoever, but if we must have these assurers, who on that this is the second clause to contain a solution earth will they be? looking for a problem? Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is right that we Ian Lavery: Of course it is. My hon. Friend is absolutely need more clarity from the Minister about the role of right. the assurer and who the Government expect will take 1073 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1074 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Andrew Gwynne] (f) The person is in breach of his statutory duty or the terms of his appointment, by reason of incapacity or for any other reason that on. Is that not why Labour Front Benchers were which in the reasonable opinion of the union justifies his removal, right to table amendment 109, which proposes conditions or under which an assurer may not be reappointed, thus (g) There are any other reasonable circumstances where the allowing a union to terminate any contract with them? continuation of the assurer would be deemed inappropriate.” That could address the situation of an assurer who That is fair. If a trade union has complied with the worked for a law firm that was advising an employer legislation and appointed an assurer, it should be up to with which the union was in dispute, because that the trade union to get rid of the assurer in those person would clearly have a conflict of interest between circumstances. their union role and that of advising the employer. I could speak all day on the amendments—[HON. MEMBERS: “Go on!”]—but others wish to speak. The Ian Lavery: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct, and Bill is totally flawed. I have no confidence in the clause, although we have only started to scratch the surface, the but it could have been worse if the assurer were appointed proposal is getting worse by the minute. by someone else. If the assurer had been imposed on trade unions, that would have presented a bigger difficulty. Paul Flynn: I am following my hon. Friend’s speech Perhaps someone can tell me what would happen if the with interest. I share his puzzlement, but there might be trade unions change their rulebooks, which in my view a plausible explanation of why the role is being created. they should not need to do. They should not be dictated We know that great hordes of Tory and Lib Dem to by Government legislation. Members will be unemployed after the 2015 election, so The rulebook governs the trade union. It is the Bible this might well be a job creation programme to allow of that trade union. What happens if, once the Bill them to become assurers. is passed, Lenny McCluskey rings me up and says, “Mr Lavery, would you be an assurer for Unite?”? Ian Lavery: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, Would I be within my rights to say, “Of course I although he puts it somewhat differently than I would. would”? Am I independent? Could I say, “Lenny, how My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish much will you pay us?”? That is how daft the clause is. (Andrew Gwynne) referred to how the appointment Where is the independence? Is anyone who was elected of a duly appointed assurer could be terminated. democratically by the rulebook of a union subject to Amendment 119 is simple. Under proposed new section challenge by the Secretary of State if they become an 24ZC(3) an assurer’s appointment can be terminated if assurer? Do they have to be accepted by someone in “(a) a resolution has been passed at a general meeting of the Government to validate their independence, or can the trade union appointing somebody else instead or providing expressly unions pick who they want, pay them what they want, that the person is not to be re-appointed”— get what they want and submit what they would normally whatever that means—or send in for the AR21? “(b) the person has given notice to the union in writing of the 6.15 pm person’s unwillingness to be re-appointed” Another problem is if these people are not independent. or Are these assurers—what a name; surely whoever wrote “(c) the person is not qualified for the appointment in accordance this could have come up with a better one—there to with section 24ZB”. “assure” the certification officer that what the trade If he is not qualified, how can he be sacked? He should unions say is correct? Good grief! This must be one of not have the job in the first place. This is an outrage. It the worst-written pieces of legislation ever to come just needs some common sense to row back from these before the House. Government Members are embarrassed provisions. about it. That is why we have not seen a soul on their Benches today. It is unbelievable that they have wheeled out the Liberal Democrats to speak on this Bill. Sometimes Steve McCabe: On page 4 of the Government’s people never learn. Well, let us see what happens. publication, “Reducing Regulation Made Simple”, the Government promise to free civil society groups from There is huge potential for an increase in blacklisting. “unnecessarily burdensome regulation” so that they can Adding this extra layer of bureaucracy will mean that “innovate, diversify and grow”. Shall we get the Minister the assurer will have powers under the Data Protection a copy before we make any further progress on the Bill? Act, together with the certification officer, to go to a trade union within reasonable hours and demand to see Ian Lavery: That would be helpful; it could be part of the names, addresses and other details of its members. the consultation process, which has been sadly lacking We already have the problem of blacklisting in the trade in the case of this Bill. union movement, which at least the Liberal Democrats have accepted, because the Secretary of State for Business, The fourth way of getting rid of a duly appointed Innovation and Skills has said that he understands that assurer is if there has been a problem and that if we have evidence “(d) the person has ceased to act as an assurer by reason of that blacklisting is continuing he is prepared to do incapacity.” something about it. Fair game, but we all understand That is fair enough. However, Opposition amendment 109 that it still takes place. sets out additional conditions under which an assurer Blacklisting is a scourge on society. It means that may not be re-appointed, to allow a union to terminate ordinary, hard-working people find themselves unemployed. the appointment of an assurer if The construction industry is a great example of this. “(e) The person has breached the confidentiality of the Trade People finish a job and apply for one elsewhere with a Union, or different company, but find that there are these secret 1075 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1076 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill organisations. Who is to say that the chairman of one In workplaces where the majority are in a trade union, of those organisations—we will not know who they are, there are no secrets. Everybody knows who is in the union because the organisations are secret—could not be an and it is common for both the lowest paid and most assurer for one of the major trade unions? senior members of staff to be in the trade union. When I was a lay rep, I negotiated on behalf of my members Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and the senior manager I was negotiating with was a to talk about the impact of blacklisting on ordinary member of my branch of my trade union. That is common working people. It is something that we should all be when a workplace has a high density of union membership. concerned about. Is that not also why it was right for However, in other workplaces, people who rise up the Opposition Front Benchers to table amendment 117, ladder and become senior managers may not want their which would make it clear that a union should not have managerial colleagues or the work force to know that to provide information when doing so would compromise they are in a trade union. Do not think that it is just its obligations to protect members’ personal data under those at the bottom end who do not want people to the Data Protection Act? That is absolutely crucial, and know that they are in a trade union. it is the least that the Government should concede today. People are also at their most vulnerable when there is no recognition in a workplace. Sometimes their jobs are Ian Lavery: That is a very important point, and it was under threat. People get victimised out of the door discussed earlier. There is a legal contradiction in relation because the management have found out that they are to the trade union’s obligations under the TULR regulations union members; I have seen that on numerous occasions to adhere to the Data Protection Act, which protects as a union official. As we discuss the clause, we have to members’ private and personal details from being released. look at the real world and how things work in practice, The new legislation gives powers to the likes of the rather than at what is, frankly, an academic diatribe. assurer. Who knows who these assurers will be and what they could do with that information? It is therefore Andrew Gwynne: In the real world, my hon. Friend, very important that we look at this. These assurers like me, will have received hundreds of e-mails and could be anybody. It would be very difficult to know letters about part 2 of the Bill. At her recent advice whether they are part of an organisation that assists in surgeries, how many people have been saying, “Do you blacklisting. The confidentiality of people in the workplace know what, Julie, we need to appoint an assurer to is a live issue. Why add another layer of bureaucracy by ensure openness and transparency in the trade unions”? having these assurers? It is absolute poppycock. It is nonsense. Whoever dreamt it up should be fired. Hundreds, Julie Elliott: My hon. Friend will not be surprised to if not thousands, of people are affected by blacklisting hear that not a single person has said that. As my hon. and the situation could get an awful lot worse if the Friend the Member for Wansbeck said, what does “assurer” Opposition amendments are not accepted. Like many even mean? It is such a nonsense of a description. As I others here, I am sure, I have spoken to people who were said, we have to work in the real world. Good legislation not even aware that they were on a blacklist but subsequently needs to understand and relate to the real world, but found out that, for years, the reason why they had been nothing in clause 37 does, according to my knowledge unemployed, their kids had not had the best uniforms and experience. at school and they had been on benefits was that they On amendment 112, let us look at the real world—the had been on a blacklist. That seriously concerns me. practicalities. This is about employers sharing information There is a huge problem with confidentiality and and accurate details with trade unions. Where there is a with conflict resulting from the legal interpretation of good relationship and a good recognition agreement, the Data Protection Act and the 1992 Act. We have to the unions work hand in hand with employers because support the amendments and try to kick out this absolutely if businesses do well, union members do well, and there hopeless Bill. is therefore complete transparency, openness and sharing of information. However, if that situation does not exist, that is not the case. The TULR regulations already Julie Elliott: It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend set the requirements on the maintenance of the membership the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), with whom I system. Various rulings have said that reasonable steps have worked in the trade union movement in my region have to be taken to make sure that the membership for far too many years. records are accurate. Clause 37 is all about the implications of appointing In my personal experience—that is where we can all an assurer. As other Members have said, we have to draw our information from—bad employers will do draw to the Government’s attention the irony of the anything to make trade union records wrong. That does enormous added burden that the clause will impose on not happen only in relation to membership checks for trade unions, given that we work in the most regulated industrial action ballots, which are the most onerous part of the voluntary sector. The provision is absolutely and time-consuming things a trade union official will unnecessary and is politically motivated. I had to say ever do. In can be a case of trying to get recognition in a that before I turn to the two amendments I am most company where members have been recruited. Usually concerned about. it is when members in an unrecognised work force have Why do people join trade unions? Sometimes it is problems that they go to a trade union. Time, energy because their friends join, and sometimes in their workplace and effort will have been spent recruiting the number of it is just the done thing to join. Some people join to have members to hit the threshold required to be able to an insurance policy in case they get into trouble or apply for recognition. It is unbelievable the steps that picked on. Many join when they are first employed and employers will take to try to scupper those numbers. want to maintain their membership as they get promoted They will suddenly take on temporary workers. If the up the ladder. union is applying for recognition for a particular part of 1077 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1078 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Julie Elliott] to the Data Protection Act and the obligations on trade unions to keep information safe and secure and to not the work force, they will move people from one part of let anybody else access it. I would not like my personal the company to another to suddenly boost the numbers information passed randomly to everybody and asunder. so that the required percentage is not reached. The idea Some of my information is public, but my personal that employers of that mindset will share information information, which my trade union has, should remain about our members is ridiculous. personal and be given only to the people I choose to I would like to run through some of the things that give it to. The Bill’s proposals make that information we did when I was a trade union official to try to ensure vulnerable. that our membership records were as up to date as It has been suggested that the information could be possible. A couple of times a year we sent out magazines dealt with by branches and lay reps, but that is ridiculous. to every single member of the trade union, and there They do not have the capacity. Usually, they are in was always a big advert saying, “If you move house, full-time jobs and do their functions as a lay official in change jobs or change your telephone number, let us their spare time, above and beyond their working day. know.”It has become increasingly hard to keep membership When will they get the time to fulfil this task? They records accurate. Historically people had land lines and simply do not have access to the same information as an did not change their telephone number; nowadays, a lot official employed by a trade union to do that job. I am of people do not have land lines and mobile phone very concerned about that, because the data are sensitive numbers can change quite frequently. There are an and are classified as such by the Data Protection Act. enormous number of inaccurate phone numbers in the They need to be treated as such. The clause lays the records of trade unions, as there will be, I suggest, in information wide open and this is the one area about any organisation. The situation is incredibly difficult. which I think the Government need to think again. Any other mailing to members would have another I agree with all of our amendments, but I urge the advert or a paragraph saying, “If any of your details Government to look again at amendments 112 and 117 have changed please let us know.” We had branch audits in particular. I am really concerned that the clause has where it would be a specific task in a certain branch to not been thought through and that it has not been go through the membership records and physically talk written in a practical way that relates to the real world. to people about them. I do not think that trade unions If legislation is going to work, it has to do those things, could do any more to keep track of their members. and this Bill simply does not pass that test. Another issue is that the world has changed. This goes back to my point about having to be practical; in John McDonnell: I want to follow on from the excellent my view, nothing in this clause is practical. Trade union exposé by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland workplace branches, which historically the unions were Central (Julie Elliott) of the rationale for the concerns built on, virtually do not exist any more because the of the Opposition and others. To be frank, I thought world of work has changed. People do not start work that we had won this argument. As my hon. Friend the when they leave school and stay there until they retire. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) has said, We do not have mass employers of thousands of people we had a debate on blacklisting several months ago, in where people remain in their jobs and can gain promotion which there was cross-party understanding of the and go through the ranks in one company. That is not vulnerability that people feel in the work force. As my today’s world of work. In those days, it was quite hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central has straightforward to keep track of the membership. said, that vulnerability relates not only to blacklisting, All those things have made the situation more difficult. but to victimisation. I hate the idea of what the clause proposes. It is saying that some random person on the street—the assurer, I raised the issue in 1997 and in 2003. We got some whoever this person is and from whatever background— legislation that was not effective and then I convened could challenge what is happening and say, “Youhaven’t the first meeting of the Blacklist Support Group, which kept your membership records correct.” What is the brought together in 2008 all those workers with blacklisting level of leeway going to be? Where will reasonableness cases that they wanted to pursue. One of the breakthroughs come into this? for us was the raids undertaken by the Information Commissioner, under the Data Protection Act, that exposed Ian Murray: My hon. Friend is making a compelling the scale of blacklisting, with nearly 4,000 people on at case against the Bill. Given her vast experience of least one list. People are anxious for us to ensure that involvement in the trade union movement, is she able to any future legislation does not set up a system that think of any circumstances in which a trade union could make them vulnerable again. would think it was in its own interests not to keep It could be argued that some of our amendments are accurate membership records? a belt-and-braces approach, but this is about restoring confidence. The tragedy in the past—I do not mean to Julie Elliott: No, absolutely not. Trade unions would be hypercritical of any organisation by saying this—was welcome anything to help them keep more accurate that it was not just employers exchanging blacklist records, because of the amount of time they spend information. We now know that it was also coming trying to communicate with their members. That argument from the police and security services and, actually, some is a misnomer—it is ridiculous. renegade trade unionists, who passed information to employers who then went on to compile a blacklist. 6.30 pm That is why, if we are to establish a new system that On amendment 117, the issue that I am particularly gives the certification officer a wide range of responsibilities concerned about—for the reasons I gave earlier about and that appoints—in the words of my hon. Friend the the vulnerability of people who join trade unions—relates Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery)—the bizarrely named 1079 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1080 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill assurer and inspectors, we need to ensure that there is a I am anxious about the whole clause. It flies in the belt-and-braces approach so that they are properly tasked face of the assurances that have been given in the House with abiding by the duty of confidentiality. That is why that blacklisting and victimisation will be addressed. our amendments are so critical. People have been blacklisted or victimised simply because Amendment 107 states that it is important that the they are trade unionists or health and safety representatives. assurers On the blacklist that we discovered, names had been “have a duty of confidentiality to the trade union”. misinterpreted and the wrong people had been identified. Some people had been blacklisted simply because they It is critical that the trade union has confidence that had undertaken political activities unrelated to trade those officers have such a duty. It is also critical, as union activities. amendment 108 sets out, that when those individuals are appointed, their qualifications are known and they The Opposition amendments simply try to gain the are qualified to do the job. I hope that my hon. Friend assurance that a duty of confidentiality will be placed the Member for Wansbeck does get the job and the on the officers who will implement the new regime. I do wage from Len McCluskey. I am sure that he is completely not find that to be excessive. It will not introduce qualified to do the job. There needs to be some assurance burdens on trade unions, the certification officer or the that the people who are appointed are qualified to do assurer. It will simply clarify their legal duties. One of the job. In addition, there must be a process by which their legal duties must be to protect the information assurers can be dismissed if they breach confidentiality. that they are inspecting or, to use the new verb, “assuring” That is also dealt with in the Opposition amendments, as a result of this legislation. which would assure people that their concerns about I urge the Government to accept the amendments. I the use of this information for blacklisting and victimisation hope they do, but even if they cannot, they can at least are taken seriously in the Bill. take the spirit of what Opposition Members have said I share the concerns about line 28 on page 41, which and return with their own amendments to ensure that states that the duty of confidentiality involves taking there is a duty of confidentiality on the officers concerned; “all reasonable steps”. That is not acceptable because it that the qualifications can be properly examined when is not powerful enough. Amendment 118 would replace the assurer is appointed; that assurers can be dismissed those words with “all necessary steps”. We must ensure if there is a breakdown of confidentiality; and that that any action that is taken goes beyond reasonableness; there is absolute security for the information the assurer it must be necessary and effective. guards and controls on behalf of the trade union. Further down page 41, the circumstances are set out in which a member’s name and address are permitted to Jo Swinson: I welcome the debate on clause 37 and be provided. The list includes the member’s consent, but the amendments and I shall respond to some of the that seems to be overridden by a range of other situations remarks hon. Members have made. Clause 37 gives in which the certification officer may provide names credibility to the maintenance of trade union membership and addresses. registers to members, employers and the wider public. As hon. Members know, unions are already required Andrew Gwynne: I commend my hon. Friend for the to report on their financial affairs. They need to appoint work on blacklisting that he has done in Parliament. Is an auditor, which gives the accounts authority. When a he as concerned as I am about proposed new section large union submits its membership on its certificate, 24ZG(3)(d) to the Labour Relations (Consolidation) the Bill provides the same kind of independent assurance Act 1992, which states: that is provided in financial affairs. For the larger unions, “where it is required for the purposes of the discharge of any of that assurance needs to be independent if it is to be the functions of the assurer”? credible, which is why trade unions of more than 10,000 members must appoint a qualified independent person That seems to be very wide-ranging. to provide the membership audit certificate, which will state whether, in the assurer’s opinion, the union’s systems John McDonnell: I have no idea what that means. It are satisfactory in relation to compliance with the duties has such a range of interpretation that it gives the to maintain an accurate register—[Interruption.] If the assurer the ability to provide information to virtually hon. Member for Sheffield (Angela Smith) wants to anyone for any purpose. It will undermine the confidence intervene, I am happy for her to do so—[Interruption.] of workers who have experienced blacklisting or I apologise if I did not get the hon. Lady’s exact victimisation and workers who are currently at risk if constituency name quite right. I should have referred to the Bill is passed in this form. her as the Member for Barnsley and Penistone or One of the reasons why there may be a disclosure of whatever. She had a slightly different constituency in information is the previous Parliament. “where it is required for the purposes of the investigation of crime The clause provides an order-making power for the or criminal proceedings.” Secretary of State to define who may act as an assurer. In the real world of industrial relations, many Opposition Somebody cannot act as an assurer if the union has Members have seen a crime being alleged because of the grounds to believe they would not act competently, or process of picketing. Because the list includes the that their independence might be called into question. investigation of an alleged crime, the certification officer For example, union officers or employers may not act as will be able to hand over the names and addresses of an assurer. In practice, the assurer will need to be pickets who are accused of action that could be construed somebody who can understand how records are stored, to be illegal. That will undermine people’s ability to collected and updated, so that they can provide the exercise their democratic rights as trade unionists by audit certificate. They might want to know how the undertaking picketing or other forms of industrial action. union collects new member data and how members are 1081 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1082 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Jo Swinson] hope to provide reassurance to Members that that concern is unfounded, but I recognise that it has been reminded to keep their details up to date—the hon. expressed. The assurer will be bound by current data Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) described protection rules, as well as by the additional confidentiality how a union with which she had been involved did that provisions set out in clause 37. The assurer owes a duty regularly. The assurer might also want to know how of confidentiality to the trade union, which is built into unions update the register once changes are notified. the appointment. They must not disclose the names and Unions will need to set out in their rules the process addresses of members, except where the member consents, for appointing and removing an assurer. We have provided where it is required for the purposes of their functions flexibility for the union, but none the less, certain provisions under the Act, or for criminal proceedings. They must will apply regardless. An assurer may be removed by also take all reasonable steps to ensure that there is no resolution, or be automatically re-appointed unless one prohibited disclosure by other parties. of various specified conditions are met. However, it will A certification officer, and any inspector appointed always be up to the union to have the final say—it can by the certification officer, have access to membership appoint or remove an assurer by resolution. data, but that is immediately limited to the performance of their functions in relation to the register and the Paul Flynn: Before the hon. Lady gets into the detail, audit requirements under TULCRA—the Trade Union will she answer the question that has been asked again and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. It and again in the debate? Why is there a need for cannot be used for any other purpose. The duty concerns assurers? As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh just the register of members’ names and addresses under South (Ian Murray) has said, the measure is a solution section 24 of the 1992 Act. Other information should looking for a problem. What is the problem? not generally need to be provided; the minimum amount only will be needed. Information is, of course, sensitive Jo Swinson: That was discussed at length in the personal data. We absolutely accept that people’s names debate on the previous group of amendments and I and addresses—often their home addresses—and whether refer the hon. Gentleman to my remarks in that debate. they are members of a union are sensitive data. That Clearly, we want to ensure that there is confidence in the will, therefore, fall under the protection of existing data names and addresses that trade unions use for the protection rules. That will apply to any other personal membership lists. There is agreement on both sides of data accessed under the powers in this Bill. the Committee that it is important that membership The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) lists are accurate and up to date. That is an existing raised the ability of the certification officer to provide responsibility and duty on unions. The membership documents and a test of what a good reason would be. audit certificate will provide confidence in the list. It is The certification officer will be able only to request much more proportionate for smaller unions, for which documents that are relevant and where there is good it is much easier to keep details up to date—smaller reason to do so—a consistent test that is used elsewhere unions have fewer than 10,000 members, whereas some under the TULCRA legislation. For example, it is already of the larger unions have more than 1 million members—to applied by the certification officer for investigations of provide an assurance themselves. However, to have financial affairs. the credibility required for the larger unions, we must have that independence, which is where the assurer It is important to note that there is no evidence of a comes in. problem with how the certification officer has exercised discretion. Indeed, respondents to the targeted consultation Ian Murray: Regarding the example we heard earlier, we undertook over the summer said that they did not would it be helpful for the Minister to tell the Committee feel there was necessarily a problem. I do not believe categorically whether my hon. Friend the Member for that hon. Members are necessarily making the charge Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) could or could not be an assurer? that they would be concerned about how individuals undertake their duties. However, it is important to note that the test is available. If a union believes that the 6.45 pm certification officer is overstepping their remit, it can Jo Swinson: As I recall it, the hon. Member for withhold the information, and, ultimately, there is a Wansbeck was talking about whether he would be in a right of appeal if there is an order made by the certification position to do that where he had been elected within officer requiring production of the information. a union. I have made it clear that that would not be appropriate for union officers, because they need to be Andrew Gwynne: Earlier, the hon. Lady mentioned independent of the process. What is clear is that there that the details would be provided in an order and that will be an order published about assurers, which I will they would be subject to the minimum requirements for come on to shortly, and hopefully that will answer the the post of assurer. Will she explain what those minimum question. We need to look at the terms of the order as it requirements are, so that we can assess how to vote? develops—it may well be that the hon. Gentleman has a Also, how will she militate against potential conflicts of promising career ahead of him as an assurer. It will be interest between the assurer and other clients they might up to unions themselves to define the assurer’s contract have? terms, subject to minimum requirements, to ensure that they fit the nature of the organisation and are not Jo Swinson: I will come on to the issues relating to the disproportionately costly. assurer. I would like to deal with data protection sensitivity Various Members have raised concerns about data and turn to the issue of blacklisting before I come back protection, and that an assurer’s access to membership to the specifics about the assurer, if the hon. Gentleman details could risk breaching data protection rules. I will bear with me. 1083 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1084 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill The hon. Member for Edinburgh South was asked by will be the same as for independent scrutineers of trade the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve union ballots and elections. It is important that the McCabe) about penalties if there is a breach of data assurer has widespread credibility with unions, their protection or confidentiality issues. Various protections members and the public. The order will say which are in place. The assurer would have to comply with the organisations are eligible or list the criteria that must be Data Protection Act. If they did not do so, they would met. We imagine that assurers will probably be recognised be in breach of their contracts, so as well as being professionals, such as solicitors, auditors or independent removed, the union could sue them. However, the assurer scrutineers. The responses to our targeted consultation would also be a data controller, so the Information over the summer supported that approach. I am not Commissioner could take action. The Information sure whether the hon. Gentleman falls into any of those Commissioner has significant powers under the Data categories, but he might be interested to know that we Protection Act, which include serving an enforcement will need to consult on the content of the order, and I notice setting out action that the data controller must give the Committee an assurance that we will do so. take and—where required to address a serious contravention There will therefore be an opportunity—this is important— of the duty—imposing a fine of up to £500,000. Failing for unions, their members and the public, as well as the to comply with an enforcement notice by the Information hon. Gentleman, to comment. Commissioner is also an offence, so there are significant protections in place. Katy Clark: The hon. Lady was asked in an earlier The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John intervention how she would deal with potential conflicts McDonnell) and others raised the important issue of of interest. Will she deal with that now? blacklisting. Let me reiterate on the record—my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have said this Jo Swinson: I gave some examples of where there on various occasions in the House—that the blacklisting might be a conflict of interest, such as where somebody of trade union members is unacceptable and illegal. was already an officer of the union, which would not be Following an investigation, of which the Committee appropriate, as they would need to be independent. will be aware, that uncovered the Consulting Association’s However, as I have set out, there will be a process in the blacklist, the law was strengthened at the end of the order for outlining eligibility. previous Parliament by the Employment Relations Act 1999 (Blacklists) Regulations 2010. That was also when Andrew Gwynne: Will the Minister give way on that the maximum fine for a breach of data protection rules point? was increased to £500,000. The Committee will also be aware that the Select Jo Swinson: I have already given way to the hon. Committee on Scottish Affairs has been conducting an Gentleman and I want to make some progress. inquiry into this issue. In July, the Committee contacted Amendment 110 would mean that unions do not the Secretary of State to say that it had new information have to set out in their rules how they will appoint and that blacklisting continues. We have always encouraged remove an assurer. Not only is the amendment unnecessary, anyone with evidence of blacklisting to come forward but it is more prescriptive than what we have set out in so that we can investigate. The Scottish Affairs Committee the Bill. Our intention is to allow unions more discretion is the first to get in touch formally to say that it over when they remove or appoint an assurer. possesses new information. We are grateful to the Amendment 109 would prevent the appointment or Committee for passing that information to the Department. reappointment of an assurer when there was a breach of We have referred it to the Information Commissioner’s confidentiality or a breach of their statutory duties or Office, as the appropriate body to investigate any breaches terms of appointment, or when there were reasonable of the Data Protection Act. I understand that the office circumstances not to reappoint. Of course it is important is requesting more information from the Committee, so that the assurer should take their duty of confidentiality that it can examine it and investigate. My right hon. seriously, but the amendments are not necessary to Friend and I will of course continue to take a close achieve that aim. We can trust the unions to do this, and interest in this matter. If any evidence of blacklisting is they will be able to pass a resolution to get rid of an found, the perpetrators must feel the full force of the law. assurer for any reason. It will be up to the unions to Let me turn to the amendments in this group. decide. The relationship between the assurer and the Amendment 107 would make the assurer owe a duty of union is rightly one for the union to define. We have confidentiality to the union and its members—this deals added a minimum level of protection in the Bill to with the concerns raised about data protection. I hope ensure that an assurer is not reappointed if they are not that the protections I have outlined will reassure hon. qualified, are incapacitated or have decided that they do Members about compliance with the existing legislation, not wish to be reappointed. In general, however, it is even though it is not explicitly mentioned in part 3—the better that the union should be responsible for the convention is to keep legislation concise and not to terms of the relationship with the assurer. That will repeat existing legal requirements. I am happy to reassure allow much more flexibility to deal with the individual the Committee and put it firmly on the record that circumstances of each union. compliance with the Data Protection Act will be necessary Amendment 111 would expect the assurer to give an by anyone who handles sensitive data. opinion as to whether the union had complied with the Amendment 108 would require the Secretary of State duty to keep its membership register accurate and up to to set out eligibility criteria for the assurer—this goes to date. This would replace the current proposal to give an the point about the future career ambitions of the hon. opinion on whether the union’s system for compiling Member for Wansbeck—along with what qualifications, the register was satisfactory for that purpose. What is status and experience assurers must have. Our approach being proposed in the amendment would be far more 1085 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1086 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill [Jo Swinson] Amendment 119 also seeks further reassurance on the Data Protection Act, but that is unnecessary because costly and onerous to the union. In some cases, the it will already apply. Amendments 118 and 128 propose assurer might conclude that they needed to carry out a replacing the words “all reasonable steps” with “all steps thorough audit of all the content of the register. We necessary”. I must ask the hon. Member for Edinburgh believe that a systems check is more proportionate, and South what steps he can imagine that are necessary yet that is what we are setting out. unreasonable. Is he really suggesting that we want necessary Amendment 112 has been mentioned by the hon. and unreasonable steps to be taken? Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and others. Amendment 120 would change the disclosure It would add an additional requirement to the membership requirements, but I have already set out the safeguards, audit certificate. This would be to include the assurer’s so the amendment is unnecessary. opinion as to whether the employer had shared “timely I hope that I have been able to reassure the Committee and accurate details” with the union. The hon. Lady on a few points of concern. These measures will not took the view that bad employers would try to prevent present an unreasonable burden on unions and the unions from having the right information. As I mentioned safeguards in place against the misuse of data are more earlier, there is already statutory protection to ensure than adequate. This clause is necessary to provide that unions cannot be held accountable for information independent assurance of the maintenance of large and that they do not possess, or for inaccuracies that are complex registers. Clause 37 should stand part of the beyond their control. It is also important to note that Bill, and I urge the hon. Member for Edinburgh South we will produce guidance for employers, to help them to not to press his amendments. assist unions to comply. It is important that employers should comply with their requirement to provide Ian Murray: Given the time, all I will say in summing information to unions, and we believe that that additional up is that the Government cannot win the next general guidance will be helpful in that regard. election on the arguments, so they will win it on— Amendment 166 seeks to assist the assurer by requiring the Secretary of State to produce guidance and define 7pm in statute what is “satisfactory” and “not satisfactory”. The amendment is either necessary or desirable. What is Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 3 September). satisfactory or not will vary from one union to another, The Chairman of Ways and Means put forthwith the and a one-size-fits-all definition would be onerous for question already proposed from the Chair (Standing some and ineffective for others. Our approach is to Order No. 83E), That the amendment be made. retain flexibility. Assurers will be professionals, and it is The Committee divided: Ayes 226, Noes 290. reasonable to rely on their professional judgment and ability to apply these phrases appropriately. Ultimately, Division No. 85] [7 pm the membership audit certificate represents only the opinion of the assurer. It is only the certification officer AYES who has the power to make a determination. Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Mr Ronnie Amendment 116 would mean that the union’s assurer Abrahams, Debbie Champion, Sarah was entitled to require only the union’s data controller Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Chapman, Jenny Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Clark, Katy to provide the necessary information. This would be Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom instead of being able to approach Allen, Mr Graham Coaker, Vernon “the union’s officers, or the officers of any of its branches or Anderson, Mr David Coffey, Ann sections”, Ashworth, Jonathan Connarty, Michael as set out in the Bill. That could result in the assurer Austin, Ian Cooper, Rosie being unable to ask questions of the right people. They Bain, Mr William Cooper, rh Yvette should obviously be able to question those who handle Balls, rh Ed Corbyn, Jeremy sensitive membership data, but they should also be able Banks, Gordon Crausby, Mr David to question others who understand how those data are Barron, rh Mr Kevin Creagh, Mary kept up to date. In some cases, that might be one and Beckett, rh Margaret Creasy, Stella the same individual, but in others it might not be. So the Begg, Dame Anne Cruddas, Jon form of words that we have used in the Bill, which is Benn, rh Hilary Cryer, John also used throughout the Trade Union and Labour Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Alex Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Mr Jim Relations (Consolidation) Act, is much better. Betts, Mr Clive Curran, Margaret Amendment 115 seems to suggest that a union should Blackman-Woods, Roberta Danczuk, Simon not be penalised for errors when the correct details are Blears, rh Hazel David, Wayne held by the employer. I have already set out why existing Blenkinsop, Tom Davidson, Mr Ian legislation renders such an amendment unnecessary. Blunkett, rh Mr David Davies, Geraint There is already a “reasonably practicable” test, and we Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Denham, rh Mr John will be issuing improved guidance. Amendment 117 Brennan, Kevin Dobbin, Jim would mean that the union could supply information to Brown, Lyn Dobson, rh Frank the assurer to help them to carry out their role only if it Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Docherty, Thomas did not conflict with the union’s responsibility to comply Brown, Mr Russell Doran, Mr Frank with data protection requirements. I have already outlined Bryant, Chris Doughty, Stephen the safeguards relating to data protection. The assurer Buck, Ms Karen Dowd, Jim will have to be able to see the register if they are to carry Burnham, rh Andy Doyle, Gemma out their responsibilities effectively, and the amendment Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dromey, Jack could prevent that from happening. Campbell, Mr Alan Dugher, Michael 1087 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1088 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Twigg, Stephen Winnick, Mr David Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Wishart, Pete Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, Valerie Woodcock, John Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonald, Andy Watson, Mr Tom Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Watts, Mr Dave Wright, David Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Weir, Mr Mike Wright, Mr Iain Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Tellers for the Ayes: Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Williams, Hywel Nic Dakin and Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Williamson, Chris Phil Wilson Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael NOES Flynn, Paul Meale, Sir Alan Afriyie, Adam de Bois, Nick Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Amess, Mr David Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Andrew, Stuart Dorries, Nadine Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Doyle-Price, Jackie Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Bacon, Mr Richard Drax, Richard Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Baker, Norman Duncan, rh Mr Alan Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. Baker, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Godsiff, Mr Roger (Easington) Baldwin, Harriett Dunne, Mr Philip Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Barclay, Stephen Ellis, Michael Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Mr Jim Barker, rh Gregory Ellison, Jane Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Paul Baron, Mr John Ellwood, Mr Tobias Green, Kate Murray, Ian Barwell, Gavin Elphicke, Charlie Greenwood, Lilian Nandy, Lisa Bebb, Guto Evans, Graham Griffith, Nia Onwurah, Chi Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Jonathan Gwynne, Andrew Osborne, Sandra Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Mr Nigel Hain, rh Mr Peter Owen, Albert Benyon, Richard Evennett, Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Paisley, Ian Berry, Jake Fabricant, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Pearce, Teresa Bingham, Andrew Featherstone, Lynne Havard, Mr Dai Perkins, Toby Binley, Mr Brian Field, Mark Healey, rh John Phillipson, Bridget Birtwistle, Gordon Foster, rh Mr Don Hendrick, Mark Pound, Stephen Blackman, Bob Fox,rhDrLiam Hepburn, Mr Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin Blackwood, Nicola Francois, rh Mr Mark Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blunt, Mr Crispin Freeman, George Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie Boles, Nick Freer, Mike Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Steve Bone, Mr Peter Fullbrook, Lorraine Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Emma Bottomley, Sir Peter Fuller, Richard Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Jonathan Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Sir Edward Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Mark Hosie, Stewart Robertson, Angus Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, John Bridgen, Andrew George, Andrew Hunt, Tristram Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brine, Steve Gibb, Mr Nick Irranca-Davies, Huw Rotheram, Steve Brokenshire, James Glen, John Jackson, Glenda Roy, Mr Frank Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Browne, Mr Jeremy Gove, rh Michael Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Buckland, Mr Robert Graham, Richard Jarvis, Dan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Burley, Mr Aidan Grant, Mrs Helen Johnson, rh Alan Sarwar, Anas Burns, rh Mr Simon Gray, Mr James Johnson, Diana Sawford, Andy Burrowes, Mr David Green, rh Damian Jones, Graham Seabeck, Alison Burstow, rh Paul Greening, rh Justine Jones, Mr Kevan Shannon, Jim Byles, Dan Griffiths, Andrew Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Cairns, Alun Gummer, Ben Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shuker, Gavin Carmichael, Neil Gyimah, Mr Sam Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Cash, Mr William Halfon, Robert Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Chishti, Rehman Hames, Duncan Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Angela Clappison, Mr James Hancock, Mr Mike Lavery, Ian Smith, Nick Clark, rh Greg Hands, Greg Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harper, Mr Mark Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Spellar, rh Mr John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harrington, Richard Lewis, Mr Ivan Stringer, Graham Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Stuart, Ms Gisela Collins, Damian Hart, Simon Love, Mr Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Colvile, Oliver Harvey, Sir Nick Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Cox, Mr Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Crouch, Tracey Hayes, rh Mr John MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Thornberry, Emily Davey, rh Mr Edward Heald, Oliver Mactaggart, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Davies, David T. C. Heath, Mr David Mahmood, Mr Khalid Trickett, Jon (Monmouth) Heaton-Harris, Chris Malhotra, Seema Turner, Karl Davies, Glyn Hemming, John Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Davies, Philip Henderson, Gordon 1089 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1090 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Tomlinson, Justin Whittaker, Craig Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Tredinnick, David Whittingdale, Mr John Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Truss, Elizabeth Wiggin, Bill Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Turner, Mr Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Williams, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Vaizey, Mr Edward Williamson, Gavin Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh Wilson, Mr Rob Howell, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Vickers, Martin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Walker, Mr Charles Wright, Jeremy Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ottaway, Richard Wallace, Mr Ben Wright, Simon Huppert, Dr Julian Paice, rh Sir James Watkinson, Dame Angela Yeo, Mr Tim Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil Webb, Steve Young, rh Sir George Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti Wharton, James Tellers for the Noes: James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wheeler, Heather Jenny Willott and Javid, Sajid Penning, Mike White, Chris Karen Bradley Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penrose, John Johnson, Gareth Percy, Andrew Johnson, Joseph Perry, Claire Question accordingly negatived. Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen The Chair then put forthwith the Questions necessary Jones, rh Mr David Pincher, Christopher for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John time (Standing Order No. 83D). Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Amendment proposed: 112, page 40, line 19, at end Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John insert— Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark ‘(c) Whether, in the assurer’s opinion, the trade union has Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John taken all reasonable steps to ensure their membership Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rees-Mogg, Jacob register is up to date taking into account— Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan (i) that the union should not be held responsible for Lancaster, Mark Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm inaccuracies in cases where, in the assurer’s Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, rh Hugh opinion, an employer is not sharing timely and Latham, Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence accurate details, and Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan (ii) any other aspects that, in the assurer’s opinion, Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew have been out of the control of the trade union in Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber the maintenance of the membership register.’.— Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David (Ian Murray.) Leech, Mr John Russell, Sir Bob Question put, That the amendment be made. Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sanders, Mr Adrian The Committee divided: Ayes 223, Noes 284. Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Division No. 86] [7.12 pm Lewis, Dr Julian Scott, Mr Lee Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew AYES Lidington, rh Mr David Sharma, Alok Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shepherd, Sir Richard Abbott, Ms Diane Burnham, rh Andy Lloyd, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Abrahams, Debbie Byrne, rh Mr Liam Lord, Jonathan Smith, Miss Chloe Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Campbell, Mr Alan Loughton, Tim Smith, Henry Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, Mr Ronnie Luff, Peter Smith, Julian Alexander, Heidi Champion, Sarah Lumley, Karen Smith, Sir Robert Allen, Mr Graham Chapman, Jenny Macleod, Mary Soames, rh Nicholas Anderson, Mr David Clark, Katy Main, Mrs Anne Soubry, Anna Ashworth, Jonathan Clarke, rh Mr Tom May, rh Mrs Theresa Stanley, rh Sir John Austin, Ian Coaker, Vernon Maynard, Paul Stephenson, Andrew Bain, Mr William Coffey, Ann McCartney, Jason Stevenson, John Balls, rh Ed Connarty, Michael McCartney, Karl Stewart, Bob Banks, Gordon Cooper, Rosie McIntosh, Miss Anne Stewart, Iain Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, rh Yvette McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Rory Beckett, rh Margaret Corbyn, Jeremy McPartland, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Begg, Dame Anne Crausby, Mr David McVey, Esther Stride, Mel Benn, rh Hilary Creagh, Mary Menzies, Mark Stuart, Mr Graham Benton, Mr Joe Creasy, Stella Berger, Luciana Cruddas, Jon Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Betts, Mr Clive Cryer, John Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Alex Milton, Anne Swales, Ian Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Mr Jim Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Blenkinsop, Tom Curran, Margaret Moore, rh Michael Swinson, Jo Blunkett, rh Mr David Danczuk, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Swire, rh Mr Hugo Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben David, Wayne Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Brennan, Kevin Davidson, Mr Ian Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Brown, Lyn Davies, Geraint Morris, James Teather, Sarah Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Denham, rh Mr John Mosley, Stephen Thornton, Mike Brown, Mr Russell Dobbin, Jim Mowat, David Thurso, John Bryant, Chris Dobson, rh Frank Mulholland, Greg Timpson, Mr Edward Buck, Ms Karen Docherty, Thomas 1091 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1092 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Mr Khalid Trickett, Jon Williamson, Chris Doughty, Stephen Malhotra, Seema Turner, Karl Winnick, Mr David Dowd, Jim Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Doyle, Gemma McCabe, Steve Twigg, Stephen Wishart, Pete Dromey, Jack McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Woodcock, John Dugher, Michael McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Eagle, Ms Angela McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, Valerie Wright, David Edwards, Jonathan McDonald, Andy Watson, Mr Tom Wright, Mr Iain Efford, Clive McDonnell, John Watts, Mr Dave Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Weir, Mr Mike Tellers for the Ayes: Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Alison Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Nic Dakin and Engel, Natascha McGovern, Jim Williams, Hywel Phil Wilson Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Evans, Chris McKenzie, Mr Iain NOES Farrelly, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Field, rh Mr Frank Meacher, rh Mr Michael Afriyie, Adam Davies, David T. C. Flello, Robert Meale, Sir Alan Amess, Mr David (Monmouth) Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Andrew, Stuart Davies, Glyn Flynn, Paul Miller, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davies, Philip Fovargue, Yvonne Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bacon, Mr Richard de Bois, Nick Francis, Dr Hywel Morden, Jessica Baker, Norman Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Gardiner, Barry Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Baker, Steve Dorries, Nadine Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie Glass, Pat (Easington) Barclay, Stephen Drax, Richard Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Barker, rh Gregory Duncan, rh Mr Alan Godsiff, Mr Roger Murphy, rh Mr Jim Baron, Mr John Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Goggins, rh Paul Murphy, rh Paul Barwell, Gavin Dunne, Mr Philip Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Bebb, Guto Ellis, Michael Greatrex, Tom Nandy, Lisa Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellison, Jane Green, Kate Onwurah, Chi Bellingham, Mr Henry Ellwood, Mr Tobias Greenwood, Lilian Osborne, Sandra Benyon, Richard Elphicke, Charlie Griffith, Nia Owen, Albert Berry, Jake Evans, Graham Gwynne, Andrew Paisley, Ian Bingham, Andrew Evans, Jonathan Hain, rh Mr Peter Pearce, Teresa Binley, Mr Brian Evans, Mr Nigel Hamilton, Mr David Perkins, Toby Blackman, Bob Evennett, Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Blackwood, Nicola Fabricant, Michael Havard, Mr Dai Pound, Stephen Blunt, Mr Crispin Featherstone, Lynne Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin Boles, Nick Field, Mark Hendrick, Mark Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bone, Mr Peter Foster, rh Mr Don Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reed, Mr Jamie Bottomley, Sir Peter Fox,rhDrLiam Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Steve Bradley, Karen Francois, rh Mr Mark Freeman, George Hilling, Julie Reynolds, Emma Brady, Mr Graham Freer, Mike Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Brake, rh Tom Fullbrook, Lorraine Hoey, Kate Riordan, Mrs Linda Bray, Angie Fuller, Richard Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, Angus Bridgen, Andrew Hosie, Stewart Robertson, John Garnier, Sir Edward Brine, Steve Garnier, Mark Howarth, rh Mr George Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brokenshire, James Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve Gauke, Mr David Brooke, Annette Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Mr Frank George, Andrew Browne, Mr Jeremy Jackson, Glenda Roy, Lindsay Gibb, Mr Nick Buckland, Mr Robert James, Mrs Siân C. Ruane, Chris Glen, John Burley, Mr Aidan Jamieson, Cathy Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Goodwill, Mr Robert Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Burns, rh Mr Simon Gove, rh Michael Johnson, rh Alan Sawford, Andy Burrowes, Mr David Graham, Richard Johnson, Diana Seabeck, Alison Burstow, rh Paul Grant, Mrs Helen Jones, Graham Shannon, Jim Byles, Dan Gray, Mr James Jones, Mr Kevan Sharma, Mr Virendra Cairns, Alun Green, rh Damian Jones, Susan Elan Shuker, Gavin Carmichael, Neil Greening, rh Justine Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Skinner, Mr Dennis Cash, Mr William Griffiths, Andrew Keeley, Barbara Slaughter, Mr Andy Chishti, Rehman Gummer, Ben Kendall, Liz Smith, rh Mr Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Gyimah, Mr Sam Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Angela Clappison, Mr James Halfon, Robert Lavery, Ian Smith, Nick Clark, rh Greg Hames, Duncan Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Spellar, rh Mr John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hancock, Mr Mike Lewis, Mr Ivan Stringer, Graham Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hands, Greg Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Stuart, Ms Gisela Collins, Damian Harper, Mr Mark Love, Mr Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Colvile, Oliver Harrington, Richard Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hart, Simon Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Crabb, Stephen Harvey, Sir Nick MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Thornberry, Emily Crouch, Tracey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mactaggart, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Davey, rh Mr Edward Hayes, rh Mr John 1093 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party 1094 Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Campaigning and TU Admin Bill Heald, Oliver Main, Mrs Anne Ruffley, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Heath, Mr David May, rh Mrs Theresa Russell, Sir Bob Tomlinson, Justin Heaton-Harris, Chris Maynard, Paul Rutley, David Truss, Elizabeth Hemming, John McCartney, Jason Sanders, Mr Adrian Turner, Mr Andrew Henderson, Gordon McCartney, Karl Sandys, Laura Tyrie, Mr Andrew Herbert, rh Nick McIntosh, Miss Anne Scott, Mr Lee Uppal, Paul Hinds, Damian McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Selous, Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Sharma, Alok Vara, Mr Shailesh Hollingbery, George McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris Vickers, Martin Hollobone, Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Smith, Miss Chloe Walker, Mr Charles Holloway, Mr Adam Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Henry Wallace, Mr Ben Hopkins, Kris Mills, Nigel Smith, Julian Watkinson, Dame Angela Horwood, Martin Milton, Anne Smith, Sir Robert Webb, Steve Howarth, Sir Gerald Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Soames, rh Nicholas Wharton, James Howell, John Moore, rh Michael Soubry, Anna Wheeler, Heather Hughes, rh Simon Mordaunt, Penny Stanley, rh Sir John Whittaker, Craig Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Morgan, Nicky Stephenson, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Huppert, Dr Julian Morris, Anne Marie Stevenson, John Wiggin, Bill Hurd, Mr Nick Morris, James Stewart, Bob Williams, Mr Mark Jackson, Mr Stewart Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Iain Williams, Roger James, Margot Mowat, David Stewart, Rory Williams, Stephen Javid, Sajid Mulholland, Greg Streeter, Mr Gary Williamson, Gavin Jenkin, Mr Bernard Mundell, rh David Stride, Mel Wilson, Mr Rob Johnson, Gareth Munt, Tessa Stuart, Mr Graham Wollaston, Dr Sarah Johnson, Joseph Murray, Sheryll Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wright, Jeremy Jones, Andrew Newmark, Mr Brooks Sturdy, Julian Wright, Simon Jones, rh Mr David Newton, Sarah Swales, Ian Yeo, Mr Tim Jones, Mr Marcus Nokes, Caroline Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Young, rh Sir George Kawczynski, Daniel Norman, Jesse Swinson, Jo Kelly, Chris Nuttall, Mr David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Tellers for the Noes: Kirby, Simon O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Thornton, Mike Mr Robert Syms and Knight, rh Mr Greg Ollerenshaw, Eric Thurso, John Jenny Willott Kwarteng, Kwasi Ottaway, Richard Laing, Mrs Eleanor Paice, rh Sir James Question accordingly negatived. Lamb, Norman Parish, Neil Lancaster, Mark Patel, Priti Clause 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Paterson, rh Mr Owen Clauses 38 to 44 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Latham, Pauline Penning, Mike The occupant of the Chair left the Chair. Laws, rh Mr David Penrose, John Leadsom, Andrea Percy, Andrew The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Lee, Jessica Perry, Claire Bill, as amended, reported. Lee, Dr Phillip Phillips, Stephen Leech, Mr John Pincher, Christopher Bill to be considered tomorrow. Lefroy, Jeremy Poulter, Dr Daniel Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Pugh, John Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a Lewis, Brandon Randall, rh Mr John point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In light of the fact Lewis, Dr Julian Reckless, Mark that so many issues could not be debated in Committee, Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Redwood, rh Mr John have you had any notice from the Government that they Lidington, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob intend to give House more time on Report so that those Lilley, rh Mr Peter Reid, Mr Alan issues may be debated properly? Lloyd, Stephen Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Lord, Jonathan Robertson, rh Hugh Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I can reassure Loughton, Tim Robertson, Mr Laurence the hon. Gentleman that I have had absolutely no Luff, Peter Rogerson, Dan notice of that. However, as he is well aware, it is up to Lumley, Karen Rosindell, Andrew the Government to make the timetable. Macleod, Mary Rudd, Amber 1095 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1096 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill London Local Authorities and Transport Clause 9 for London (No. 2) Bill [Lords] BUILDERS’ SKIPS: PENALTY CHARGE PROVISIONS Further consideration of Bill, as amended in Committee Amendment proposed: 14—(Mr Chope.) Question put, That the amendment be made. Clause 8 The House proceeded to a Division.

IDENTIFYING THE “OWNER” OF A BUILDER’SSKIP Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Amendment proposed (10 July): 10.—(Mr Chope.) Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby. 7.26 pm The House having divided: Ayes 8, Noes 141. Question again proposed, That the amendment be Division No. 87] [7.29 pm made. AYES Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I remind the House that with this we are considering amendments 11 Bone, Mr Peter Rees-Mogg, Jacob to 19. Davies, Philip Turner, Mr Andrew Drax, Richard When the debate was in train on 10 July, I believe that Hollobone, Mr Philip Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Chope was about to sum up—within minutes—and Lewis, Dr Julian Mr Christopher Chope and end his speech on the group of amendments. Nuttall, Mr David Nigel Mills

Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Your NOES recollection is impeccable, Mr Deputy Speaker. Although Afriyie, Adam Glindon, Mrs Mary more than two months have elapsed since we last debated Amess, Mr David Goodwill, Mr Robert the amendments, I do not think that it is necessary for Baker, Norman Greatrex, Tom me to remind the House of the issues at stake, given that Barclay, Stephen Greening, rh Justine there are further important matters to discuss. Barker, rh Gregory Greenwood, Lilian During the course of the debate, there was considerable Beith, rh Sir Alan Griffiths, Andrew discussion about on which of the commendable Berry, Jake Gyimah, Mr Sam amendments in the group we should seek to test the Betts, Mr Clive Halfon, Robert opinion of the House. Having listened to the helpful Blackman, Bob Hames, Duncan advice of my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley Blackwood, Nicola Hands, Greg (Philip Davies) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), the Blenkinsop, Tom Hanson, rh Mr David Boles, Nick Harrington, Richard balance of opinion is that the best choice would be Bottomley, Sir Peter Harris, Rebecca amendment 14, which would provide that people could Bradley, Karen Harvey, Sir Nick not be prosecuted for having unlit skips if they had Brine, Steve Hayes, rh Mr John taken reasonable steps to ensure that they were lit. In Brooke, Annette Heaton-Harris, Chris other words, the amendment would mean that there Browne, Mr Jeremy Hilling, Julie would have to be a lack of responsibility before a Bryant, Chris Hoban, Mr Mark criminal act could be committed. There was acceptance Buckland, Mr Robert Hopkins, Kris across the House that such an amendment would be Burrowes, Mr David Horwood, Martin reasonable, so while I shall not press amendment 10 to Cairns, Alun Howell, John a Division, I will seek the opinion of the House on Campbell, Mr Alan Hughes, rh Simon amendment 14. Carmichael, Neil Javid, Sajid Coffey, Dr Thérèse Johnson, Diana Earlier in the debate, we heard the good news that my Collins, Damian Jones, Andrew hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), Colvile, Oliver Jones, Graham on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, will accept Creasy, Stella Kelly, Chris amendment 11, which should interest those who think Dakin, Nic Knight, rh Mr Greg that such occasions are rather a pointless exercise. It is Davey, rh Mr Edward Kwarteng, Kwasi clear that the promoters of this Bill are much more Davies, David T. C. Lansley, rh Mr Andrew willing to accept amendments than the promoter of the (Monmouth) Latham, Pauline Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning Davies, Geraint Lee, Dr Phillip and Trade Union Administration Bill—the Government. Davies, Glyn Lefroy, Jeremy The Government should learn a lesson from how we Dorries, Nadine Lewis, Brandon conduct private business, during which if it is thought Dowd, Jim Lidington, rh Mr David that the arguments being made about amendments are Dunne, Mr Philip Lilley, rh Mr Peter reasonable, those amendments are accepted without Ellis, Michael Macleod, Mary anyone feeling that they are losing face. I congratulate Ellison, Jane Mactaggart, Fiona my hon. Friend and the Bill’s promoters on being Evans, Graham May, rh Mrs Theresa broad-minded enough to accept not only amendment 11, Foster, rh Mr Don Maynard, Paul but amendment 30, which we shall reach in due course. Fovargue, Yvonne McCartney, Jason Without further ado, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Francois, rh Mr Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne amendment. Freeman, George McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Freer, Mike Menzies, Mark Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. George, Andrew Milton, Anne Amendment made: 11.—(Mr Chope.) Glen, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew 1097 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1098 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Morgan, Nicky Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Jones, Graham Rosindell, Andrew Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo Kelly, Chris Roy, Mr Frank Mosley, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Kwarteng, Kwasi Russell, Sir Bob Munt, Tessa Tami, Mark Latham, Pauline Shannon, Jim Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Lefroy, Jeremy Sharma, Alok Newmark, Mr Brooks Tyrie, Mr Andrew Lewis, Brandon Skidmore, Chris O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Pincher, Christopher Vickers, Martin Lidington, rh Mr David Smith, Henry Poulter, Dr Daniel Walker, Mr Charles Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, Sir Robert Pound, Stephen Wharton, James McCartney, Jason Stephenson, Andrew Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wheeler, Heather McIntosh, Miss Anne Stewart, Iain Reid, Mr Alan White, Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stride, Mel Rosindell, Andrew Whittaker, Craig Menzies, Mark Sturdy, Julian Roy, Mr Frank Williams, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Ruffley, Mr David Williamson, Gavin Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Russell, Sir Bob Willott, Jenny Morris, Anne Marie Tomlinson, Justin Shannon, Jim Wilson, Phil Mosley, Stephen Vickers, Martin Sharma, Alok Wilson, Mr Rob Munt, Tessa Wheeler, Heather Skidmore, Chris Wollaston, Dr Sarah Murrison, Dr Andrew White, Chris Williamson, Gavin Smith, Miss Chloe Woodcock, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Smith, Henry Woodcock, John Wright, Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Smith, Sir Robert Young, rh Sir George Young, rh Sir George Pincher, Christopher Stephenson, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Tellers for the Noes: Stewart, Iain Tellers for the Noes: Pound, Stephen Andrew Percy and Stride, Mel Andrew Percy and Reid, Mr Alan Paul Uppal Sturdy, Julian Paul Uppal Question accordingly negatived. Question accordingly negatived.

Clause 15 Clause 16

GATED ROADS CHARGING POINTS FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES Amendment proposed: 20—(Mr Chope.) Question put, That the amendment be made. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I beg to The House divided: Ayes 8, Noes 91. move amendment 21. Division No. 88] [7.43 pm Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it AYES will be convenient to consider amendments 22 to 40. Bone, Mr Peter Turner, Mr Andrew Davies, Philip Tyrie, Mr Andrew Mr Chope: The amendment relates to part 5 of the Hollobone, Mr Philip Bill, which deals with charging points for electric vehicles. Lewis, Dr Julian Tellers for the Ayes: Many moons ago, perhaps even more than two years Nuttall, Mr David Mr Christopher Chope and ago, I was told that the reason why the Government Rees-Mogg, Jacob Nigel Mills were so keen to ensure that the Bill got on the statute book was its provisions on charging points for electric NOES vehicles. The fact that the Bill has been on a very slow Amess, Mr David Foster, rh Mr Don curve since then is indicative of the many practical Baker, Norman Fovargue, Yvonne problems that are being experienced by people who Beith, rh Sir Alan Francois, rh Mr Mark want to promote electric vehicles and a green economy. Betts, Mr Clive Freer, Mike That is why the issue of charging points has not been as Blackman, Bob Fullbrook, Lorraine significant as the Government at one stage thought it Boles, Nick George, Andrew would be. Bottomley, Sir Peter Glen, John I declare my enthusiasm for the idea that there should Bradley, Karen Goodwill, Mr Robert Brooke, Annette Greatrex, Tom be electric vehicles. Obviously, if one has an electric Brown, Lyn Greening, rh Justine vehicle, one needs to have somewhere to charge it. On Browne, Mr Jeremy Greenwood, Lilian the whole, batteries that are long-lasting are heavy and Bryant, Chris Griffiths, Andrew large, so it is much easier if one has a smaller, more Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam efficient unit that can be charged at a charging point. Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan I was therefore disappointed to see that part 5, which Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg gives powers to London local authorities to Campbell, Mr Alan Harris, Rebecca Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris “provide and operate charging apparatus for electrically powered motor vehicles”, Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hilling, Julie Colvile, Oliver Hopkins, Kris does not require those local authorities to provide and Dakin, Nic Horwood, Martin operate such charging apparatus. What a missed Dunne, Mr Philip Howell, John opportunity, one might say. I am not suggesting that Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew local authorities should provide and operate charging 1099 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1100 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill apparatus in any place. What I am suggesting in Philip Davies: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, amendments 21 and 22 is that the clause should state but I cannot believe that, when he introduced unleaded that London local authorities “shall”, rather than “may”, fuel, he insisted that every local authority had an unleaded “provide and operate charging apparatus for electrically powered fuel pump outside every available car park. I presume motor vehicles” he left it to the private sector to run the show. Why does in every he believe that we need the state to be involved so “public off-street car park under the management and control of heavily in providing charging points? the authority”. We know that London local authorities make an Mr Chope rose— enormous amount of money from car parking charges, both for on-street and off-street parking. We also know Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I that off-street car parking charges often discourage recognise that the unleaded debate was such a long time shoppers from going to local shopping centres. However, in the past that Mr Davies may struggle to remember it, if local authorities believe they can charge a lot for the but Mr Chope definitely wants to talk about electric use of off-street car parks, surely, in a society in which points, and not to get bogged down in leaded or unleaded we support the principle of having and promoting the fuel. I know he dealt with that as a Minister and that he use of electric vehicles, they should be required to wants to deal only with electric points now—he does provide and operate charging apparatus for electrically not want to upset the hon. Member for Shipley powered vehicles rather than just have the opportunity (Philip Davies). to do so if they wish to take it up. Mr Chope: Absolutely, Mr Deputy Speaker. As so often, you are spot on in reading the language not 8pm necessarily expressed between my hon. Friend and myself. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): My hon. Friend knows In my hon. Friend’s most recent intervention, he I am with him on most of his activities, but does he asked why local authorities are being given this acknowledge that there is a certain smell of the nanny responsibility. The Bill does not leave it to the private state in his amendments? Is he suggesting—this seems sector to provide charging points for electric vehicles; it totally out of character for him—that drivers of non-electric gives powers to London local authorities to provide and vehicles should in effect subsidise drivers of electric operate charging apparatus. In my submission, that is vehicles through car parking charges? acceptable only if there is a requirement for them to provide that. What is the point of giving them a power Mr Chope: Far from it—I am with my hon. Friend on without any certainty about whether they will exercise subsidies. I am suggesting that the cost of charging an it? My hon. Friend paints a scenario in which the public electrically powered motor vehicle should be self-financing. sector can be kept out of this completely. Indeed, I Obviously, when someone goes into a public off-street could support that where there are no public sector car park and charges their vehicle, they can expect to London local authority-owned car parks. However, if pay for the parking, the service and the electricity. I am London local authorities wish to take powers to establish not suggesting that other car park users cross-subsidise charging points for electric vehicles, my point, and the those who have chosen to have electric vehicles. Electric point of these two amendments, is that they should vehicle users are already cross-subsidised to an extent provide them in all of their car parks. because of their different treatment under the vehicle excise duty regime. Philip Davies: I assure you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that Philip Davies: I am relieved that my hon. Friend has I will not mention unleaded fuel again. Coming on to not gone completely nanny state in his approach. However, the nitty gritty on electric charging points, as the Bill is his proposal would depend on sufficient demand for currently written it may well still be that the local electric charging points in such locations. If there was authority will not get involved and that it will be left to insufficient demand, the drivers of non-electric cars the private sector—there is no requirement. It is only if would, in effect, be subsidising the very few drivers of my hon. Friend’s amendment is accepted that local electric cars at the charging points. authorities will be forced to do this, rather than the private sector. Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is getting into an interesting argument on which we could have an academic discourse. Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is making an argument Obviously, to encourage an embryonic service, we might against the whole of part 5. He is basically saying that if have to provide it and hope that people start using it. we are to have charging points for electric vehicles, it Many years ago, when I was the Minister with responsibility should be left to the market, and that the private sector for roads, I was involved in promoting the use of lead-free will come into the market and fill any gaps. I find that to fuel. It seems amazing, Mr Deputy Speaker that, within be a persuasive argument. our living memory, we moved from full-leaded fuel to My counter-argument relates to the provisions in the unleaded version. To begin with, relatively few part 5. If London local authorities are to be given vehicles went on unleaded petrol. If a pioneer bought a powers to set up charging points we should, at the same vehicle that used unleaded fuel and there was nowhere time, say that they shall set up charging points. Otherwise, to fill it up, it would have been a deterrent to people we could have a situation where they pick and choose taking up unleaded vehicles. In the same way, if we where they think it will be most advantageous for them want to increase the uptake of electric vehicles, we need to set up the charging points, and effectively undermine to increase the number of places where people who own the potential private sector involvement to which my them can recharge them, so that they do not just leave hon. Friend refers. One consequence of part 5 may well them with an empty battery in the middle of the highway. be that in London the private sector will be inhibited 1101 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1102 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [Mr Chope] Mr Chope: That is a good point. I hope we will hear from the Minister in due course, because it is no from coming forward to provide and operate charging exaggeration to say that there is nobody in the House apparatus, because local authorities will be competing with a better or more consistent record of wanting to unfairly by providing that apparatus in their best positioned promote electric vehicles than him. off-street public car parks, rather than in all their car parks. That is the point I am trying to make: it should, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I effectively, be compulsory. know that the hon. Gentleman will not mind my advice and help. We are discussing the London Local Authorities Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does my hon. and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill, and I do not want Friend not agree that the Bill has been progressing to get into a national debate. As much as Mr Nuttall is through this place for such a long time that the legislative trying to tempt you, Mr Chope—he is very good at framework against which it was originally drafted has tempting Members away—I know that you do not want changed substantially? Part 5 may not be necessary, to be distracted from the amendments before us. because the Localism Act 2011 allows local authorities to carry out this work. Mr Chope: Thank you for that ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker. Obviously it means that when the Minister Mr Chope: My hon. Friend makes a good point. responds, he should address his remarks to the issue of Perhaps we will hear from the Minister in due course charging points for electric vehicles in London, without what he thinks is the answer to that issue. The regime straying into whether there should be charging points being established under part 5 would put London local for electric vehicles beyond London. I am glad that you authorities in a privileged position compared with ordinary have effectively given him that warning in advance of private sector operators. Philosophically, my hon. Friends him making his contribution, and I am sorry if I was the Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for going to lead him down the wrong path. Shipley and I would say that that was wrong. The counterweight is that if the legislation puts local authorities Philip Davies: The Government have set out their in a privileged position, additional responsibilities should position in “Driving the Future Today”, as published be placed on them in the public interest—namely, to by the Office for Low Emission Vehicles, which has ensure that charging points are available not just in been given money to provide such points. My concern is occasional car parks, but in every public off-street car that if my hon. Friend’s amendments are accepted, that park run by the council. could lead to the national budget for this issue being used up. Mr Nuttall: If that was the case, surely it would increase the risk of a burden being placed on the taxpayer. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I know that you wanted to make a short intervention, Mr Davies, and I know Mr Chope: I accept that, which is why I am disappointed that you may wish to speak later, in which case I would that relatively few spokespersons for London local authority not want you to use your speech up now, but instead to taxpayers are present in the Chamber. There is a lot in recognise that we need to continue with the amendments this Bill which could ultimately result in additional before us, rather than causing further distractions. costs for London local authority taxpayers, mainly through council tax. As somebody who represents a Mr Chope: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. constituency outside London, all I can do is share my Amendment 23 would introduce the words “on a hon. Friend’s concern about that. Indeed, we are doing discretionary basis”into clause 16, amending the provision a public service in raising the issue, although it does not that: seem to have yet reached the ears of people across “A London authority may grant a person permission to provide London, who are normally very concerned about whether or operate charging apparatus for electrically powered motor they are getting value for money for their council tax. vehicles…on any highway for which they are responsible as highway authority.” Philip Davies: My hon. Friend says that this is a That discretion would be necessary as a consequence of matter only for London, but it is not, because if the amendments 21 and 22 being accepted. Amendments 24 strategy goes hopelessly wrong, London local authorities and 25 propose leaving out references to authorised or the Mayor of London might at some point look to persons, which would result in the London authorities the Government to bail them out. That is why we all having to exercise the responsibility themselves, rather need to be aware of this issue on behalf of taxpayers in than through authorised people. our constituencies. 8.15 pm Mr Chope: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I suppose the counter-argument is that it is important Philip Davies: Given the discussion that we have that a motorist setting out for London from Shipley in already had about the desirability of the private sector an electric car should be able to find somewhere to being involved, would not these amendments strike out charge up their car with electricity. the opportunity for such involvement by preventing a London authority from allowing the provisions to be Mr Nuttall: In view of the point my hon. Friend has operated on its behalf? just made, is he not as surprised as I am that the Government have not introduced a Bill to provide for Mr Chope: Maybe my hon. Friend is right, but my the erection of charging points nationally, rather than submission is that if the London authority is going to just in London? provide charging points, it should do so itself, on its 1103 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1104 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill own land. The Bill does not deal with charging points would expect that local authority to be liable for the on private land. It deals only with charging points in consequences of that action. According to the drafting, public off-street car parks that are in the control of the however, the London local authority is seeking to absolve authority, and on any highway for which it is responsible itself from liability for people who fall over connecting as the highway authority. If someone is going to set up cables, on the highway or in public off-street car parks, a charging point on a highway, the highway authority which connect to charging points for electric vehicles. should be responsible for it, rather than the person who The subsequent paragraph specifies that a London local is setting it up. If anyone wants to set up private authority has “the right” to “indemnify” itself off-street charging points for electric vehicles, I would “against any claim in respect of injury, damage or loss arising out encourage them so to do. They would not need the of the grant of a permission granted under subsection (2).” permission of the local authority to do that. Indeed, It seems to me that these provisions give to the they might be able to access the subsidies that were London local authorities far too many privileges above mentioned earlier. Clause 16 allows a London authority the law. If they are keen to set up these charging points to give an “authorised person” permission to set up a for electric vehicles, they should, in my submission, also charging point on the highway, for which that authority accept the responsibility that goes with that, which is would not be directly responsible. that they should be constructed in a responsible way and should not cause danger to members of the public Philip Davies: Surely any person granted such permission which can result in injury, damage or loss. would be acting on behalf of the local authority, which Amendment 28 is designed to leave out subsection (8), could revoke that permission any time it saw fit. My which reads: hon. Friend seems to be going down the road of enforced “For the purposes of determining, in any proceedings in a nationalisation. court of civil jurisdiction, who is liable for injury, damage or loss resulting from the presence on a highway or public off-street car Mr Chope: Well, if that is not sufficient to intimidate park of a connecting cable at or near charging apparatus…it shall me into withdrawing my amendment, I do not know be presumed that the person in charge of the relevant vehicle at what is! I would certainly not wish to go down any route the relevant time had responsibility for and control of the cable.” that could be interpreted, even mistakenly, as enforced Why should that presumption be made? Why should it nationalisation. I will reflect on my hon. Friend’s point. not be a matter of who has responsibility for and I look forward to hearing his speech, and I shall perhaps control of the cable? That should be the test, rather come back to that point when I have the privilege of than making a presumption that the person in charge of winding up this short debate. the relevant vehicle has the responsibility for and control Amendments 26 and 27 propose leaving out subsections 6 of the cable. It seems to me that this is another way of and 7 of clause 16. The effect would be to deal with the introducing a statutory exception that benefits local issue of liability. One of the privileges that the Bill gives authorities and overrides the common law of the land. to London local authorities is to exempt them from the Philip Davies: I am glad to observe that my hon. common law relating to nuisance on the highway or in Friend is back on track with the amendments, because public off-street car parks. they are faultless. Does he not think it bizarre that a It says in subsection 7(b), driver who has an accident caused by a cable while he is “in relation to permissions granted under subsection (2)”, driving along should be treated as if he were in control that nothing of that cable, although he may not have been aware of “is to be taken as imposing on a London authority by whom a its existence before the accident? permission has been granted any liability for injury, damage or loss resulting from the presence on a highway or public off-street Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is entirely right. That car park of the charging apparatus to which the permission brings us back to the question of whom we are trying to relates”. encourage to use electric vehicles, and hence to use What is effectively happening under this provision is electric vehicle charging points. If using a charging that the London local authorities are seeking to say, point can make someone liable at law for events for “Not me, Guv”. If anything goes wrong with the charging which that person would not have been responsible but apparatus and it results in an accident or in somebody for the provisions of this statute, that in itself will deter being injured, which would normally lead to a claim for people from using electric vehicles. I know of no legislation damages against the local authority, that authority is that provides for someone who fills up his tank at a going to be exempt from the consequent liability. I think petrol station to be automatically liable, as the person in that puts the local authorities in a privileged position, charge of the vehicle, irrespective of whether he or she enabling them to have an unfair competitive advantage is at fault. I assume that normally, whether the petrol compared with other people who are involved in providing station was owned by a private sector company or by a charging points for electric vehicles. local authority, its owner would, could or should be responsible. Amendment 27 emphasises the same point in respect of paragraphs (c) and (d) of subsection (7). Paragraph (c) Important issues of principle underlie these provisions. states that nothing in the section The danger, as always, is that if they are passed without adverse comment, it will be possible for them to be “is to be taken as imposing on a London authority any liability replicated in other Bills. We have observed that iterative for injury, damage or loss resulting from the presence on a highway or public off-street car park of a connecting cable”. process for many years. Throughout the country, we have encountered more and more— If somebody puts a connecting cable across the highway or a public off-street car park, but it is not constructed Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Let in such a way as not to be an obstruction, resulting in us not worry about other Bills. Let us deal with the Bill somebody tripping over it and injuring themselves, one before us, and, in particular, with the amendments. 1105 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1106 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Mr Chope: I shall deal next with amendment 29, Amendment 31 addresses the definition of connecting Mr Deputy Speaker. It proposes the removal of clause 16(9), cable. It is defined in clause 16 as which states that in subsection 8, “any cable or wire, whether provided by the authority or otherwise, “’the relevant vehicle’ means the vehicle in respect of which the used to connect the charging apparatus to a vehicle and that is not connecting cable was about to be, was being or had been used for permanently attached to the charging apparatus.” charging”, As a consequence of the other amendments, I do not and that think the definition is sufficient. “’ªthe relevant time’ means the time when the liability arose.” That seems to me merely to compound the proposals in Philip Davies: If my hon. Friend’s earlier amendments subsection 8. ensure all of this has to be done by the London local We then arrive at what could be described as a bright authority alone, am I right in thinking there will not be dawn. Amendment 30 makes the following proposal: any wires, connecting cables or anything else provided “Clause 16, page 13, line 15 after ‘cable’, insert by people other than the local authority? ‘or wire which is not provided by the authority’.” I tabled that amendment because I considered it to be Mr Chope: That is absolutely right, but in drafting an essential safeguard, spelling out the status of the these amendments I had to anticipate the possibility charging apparatus to which we have been referring, that my earlier amendments would not be accepted by which had not been provided by the authority. the promoters or the House—after all, it seems that there is even some difficulty in getting my hon. Friend Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Will my hon. to accept them. I therefore thought, to employ a lawyer’s Friend give way? phrase, that it was probably sensible to plead in the alternative, or move an amendment in the alternative. I Mr Chope: May I anticipate my hon. Friend’s intervention agree that it would not be sensible to accept all the by saying that I am delighted by the broad-minded way amendments en bloc because some of them are in the in which he has viewed some, if not all, of the amendments? alternative. That would have to be sorted out if a lot of I understand that he is now about to give the House a these amendments were carried or were accepted by the verdict on the merits, or demerits, of amendment 30. promoters. Bob Blackman: Let me say on behalf of the promoters, Madam Deputy Speaker, you have arrived in the in order to save time, that they are happy to accept Chair just in time for us to get on to clause 17. It deals amendment 30. I trust that we shall now be able to with notices to be given before the exercise of powers move on to the rest of the amendments that my hon. under section 16. I have tabled some amendments to Friend wishes to press. this clause. Amendment 32 would leave out subsection (2), because that is consistent with the argument I was Mr Chope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting forward earlier that it would not be right to making that clear, and I am happy to move on. allow authorised persons to be involved in this process. This is therefore a consequential amendment, consequent Philip Davies: My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow upon being able to remove references to authorised East (Bob Blackman) may have accepted this amendment, persons from the Bill. but I am not sure that I shall accept it as easily. May I therefore suggest that my hon. Friend the Member for Philip Davies: I follow the logic of that, but it does Christchurch (Mr Chope) does not move on quite so not necessarily follow. It might be thought that the quickly, and instead outlines the reasons why this is authorised person does not need first to publish a necessary, because I do not see why? notice under this section. Has my hon. Friend given any thought to whether the publishing of the notice was Mr Chope rose— relevant in his deliberations? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I think we have got the reasons, and I know Mr Chope Mr Chope: Clause 17(1) states that wants to get on. I have not even had a chance to call “a London authority shall not exercise any power…unless they other speakers yet. I would be delighted to hear the have first published a notice under this section.” views of the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). I [Interruption.] Okay, well that is what clause 17(1) says. will therefore be grateful if you move on through the Clause 17(2) says “unless the authorised person”— amendments as you were doing, Mr Chope. [Interruption.] Yes, but I am seeking to remove authorised persons from this entirely, whether or not they had 8.30 pm published notices. That is why this is a consequential Mr Chope: My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley amendment, consequent upon the removal of any references (Philip Davies) will be able to make his own speech in to authorised persons. That is because they would not due course, and when our friend, my hon. Friend the be able to operate this equipment, whether or not they Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), replies on had published any notices under clause 17. That is behalf of the promoters, my hon. Friend the Member made clear by subsection (3), which states: for Shipley can intervene on him to ask why he thinks “A London authority or an authorised person, as the case may this amendment is so good. That might be the better be, shall publish a notice”. way of proceeding, because the situation from my point My amendment 33 seeks to remove the power for an of view is that I thought my amendment was a good authorised person to publish such a notice. Amendments 34, idea and now it has been accepted by the promoters, 35 and 36 make similar amendments, and it is not which I think that is a doubly good idea. necessary to repeat the argument in support of them. 1107 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1108 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill I shall now deal with the amendments relating to “A person shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary clause 18, which is entitled: conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale if he uses charging apparatus in contravention of a sign displayed “Duties to consult or obtain consent of other authorities”. on the apparatus which indicates that…the apparatus is not to be It is invidious to try to evaluate the significance of one’s used for any purpose other than charging a vehicle; and…it is amendments, but amendment 37 is significant. Clause 18(1) an offence to so use the apparatus…A person is not guilty of an states: offence under subsection (1) if…he had the permission of the person who operated the charging apparatus at the time to use “A London authority shall not exercise any power conferred by the charging apparatus for the purpose in question”— section 16(1) unless they have consulted any authority other than although it was a non-authorised purpose— themselves who are a local planning authority, as defined in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 for the area in which they “he had reasonable cause to believe he had such permission; propose to exercise the power.” or…at the time there was on the charging apparatus an indication given by the person who operated the charging apparatus that it Consulting a planning authority is a very different could be used for the purpose for which it was used.” proposition from obtaining its permission, which is why Effectively, the clause creates a new offence of stealing amendment 37 would replace “consulted” with “obtained electricity. the consent of”. When people are faced with the possibility of having Bob Blackman indicated assent. an electric charging point provided by a local authority Mr Chope: My hon. Friend, who is the sponsor of the or a London authority on the highway outside their Bill, is nodding. That would be fine if there was not house, they need to be protected from it being sited in already provision in law to deal with the stealing of the wrong place or being a health hazard. The local electricity, and that is why the provision is completely residents look to the local planning authority, in the redundant. first place, to try to ensure that those safeguards are available, through the process of needing to obtain We are creating a separate regime of stealing electricity planning consent. That involves publishing a notice, from a charging point for charging electric vehicles giving notice of what is proposed and obtaining the rather than relying on the general statute law on electricity consent of the authority. The Bill states that that would theft. I do not know whether the House is familiar with not need to be done and someone could put their this, but electricity theft is a big issue. At the beginning charging point on the highway without having to get the of July the energy regulator, Ofgem, said that it wanted permission of the local planning authority. more to be done to combat electricity theft. I know that this is not the subject of the Bill, but a third of electricity theft in this country is to power cannabis farms. Nothing Philip Davies: I agree wholeheartedly with what my is being done about that—it seems to be being ignored—but hon. Friend is saying; it would seem absurd that someone meanwhile we are trying to bring in draconian measures could consult the authority and have it reject the suggestion, to deal with people who, in a fit of over-enthusiasm, yet they would still plough on regardless. Does he might abstract some electricity from a charging point. understand that this amendment, which I support, highlights the folly of his amendment 21, which sought Surely we should keep the law simple: whether the to force London local authorities to provide these places electricity is from a charging point, from a company or everywhere? He is making a good point, but it flies in from someone’s own meter through changing the wires the face of his earlier amendment. or using a device, we should rely on the same law—that is, the Theft Act 1968. The Theft Act provides that it is an offence to steal electricity and there are guidelines Mr Chope: Giving my hon. Friend the benefit of the about the reasonable penalty to be imposed on people doubt, my response to his intervention is that that is not who steal electricity. I look forward to hearing from my necessarily so. This provision presupposes that the London hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East why the authority, which might be Transport for London, would promoters of the Bill think that existing laws on electricity be providing the charging points and doing so against theft are inadequate to deal with electricity that is taken the wishes of the local planning authority in whose area from a charging point. Some 25,000 people—quite a lot it was going to put those charging points. That is what I of people—steal electricity each year, and such theft am trying to get at: it is possible that there will be two costs each electricity customer the equivalent of £7 a different authorities. The London authority exercising year. its power under clause 16(1) is not necessarily the same as the local planning authority as defined in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. 8.45 pm Amendment 38 will leave out subsection (2), which Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): My hon. talks about an “authorised person”. The same issue Friend raises an important point, but the proposal arises about consultation and, as I have already said, I addresses someone who might be not stealing electricity, do not think that the powers in the Bill should be but using it unlawfully. In such circumstances, they extended to authorised people. The same point arises would have paid for it. from amendment 39, which will leave out subsection (3). Mr Chope: I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend’s Last but not least comes amendment 40. Clause 19 speech on the amendments because I am not sure that creates a new offence of unlawful use of a charging there is a distinction between using electricity in an point—[Laughter.] My hon. Friend the Member for unintended way and stealing it. Shipley laughs, and I think that many people coming to the issue for the first time would laugh as well. The Mr Turner: I am not suggesting that the person has clause provides for a new offence—have we not enough not paid for the electricity. He could have paid for it, but offences on the statute book already—and states: acted unlawfully under the clause. 1109 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1110 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Mr Chope: My hon. Friend might well be on to a to debates such as this. All I can say to the hon. Lady in good point, but we will find out when we hear from my anticipating her contribution to the debate is that she hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East on behalf of has a hard act to follow, but I am sure she will be up to the Bill’s promoters. the task. Section 13 of the Theft Act 1968 makes abstracting These issues are important and are worthy of the electricity an offence. It is triable in either the magistrates scrutiny of the House. In due course, if we get the right court or the Crown court, and there are Sentencing charging regime for electric vehicles, it may well be that Council guidelines on the appropriate punishment. Case you, Madam Deputy Speaker, start using an electric law suggests that, for a person who installs a device that vehicle in London if you do not already do so, as might causes the electricity meter in their home to give a false I. If we do not have unfair subsidies and an unfair reading, a sentence of one month’s immediate imprisonment regime for local authorities, organisations such as this might be appropriate. I tabled amendment 40 because I Parliament of ours may be able to set up charging was worried that the clause would be another example points for electric vehicles. Who knows, this could be a of putting a further small offence on the statute book very significant debate for the future of green energy in and complicating the criminal law, instead of relying on our country. basic law, which is that someone who steals electricity—who I hope that after we have heard the debate we will be takes it dishonestly and without authority—is committing able to decide whether amendment 21 or some other an offence under section 13 of the 1968 Act. amendment is the one on which we wish to divide.

Philip Davies: I agree with my hon. Friend, but is not Philip Davies: It is a pleasure to follow my hon. clause 19 also deficient by focusing in subsection (2) on Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). I was the fact that someone would be not guilty if a little worried when he began. I thought he had been “he had the permission of the person who operated the charging got at by the Whips Office and had been turned into a apparatus”? more left-wing version, but as he got through his speech Surely we should be focusing on the person who was I realised that the authentic voice of Christchurch was paying for the charging apparatus, who might not be once again being heard. the same person as the operator. I congratulate my hon. Friend, who does such a great service on private Bills, which the promoters understandably Mr Chope: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am would like to be nodded through in the minimum time. I grateful to him for citing another reason why the clause echo his praise for our hon. Friend the Member for is defective because he is making an additional argument Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who is not somebody in support of amendment 40, given that it would remove who wants to see legislation nodded through, but engages clause 19 completely. in the debate and the process. We should commend him I anticipate that my hon. Friend will make a speech, for that. Without my hon. Friend the Member for so I shall throw out the invitation that I made in Christchurch, some rather nasty parts of private Bills connection with the previous group of amendments. It would go through without anybody raising an eyebrow. would not be reasonable to press more than one of the Even if his amendments do not always find favour, it is amendments in this group to a Division, so it is important essential that they are debated and considered, and that that we listen to hon. Members’ arguments so that we people can see their merits or otherwise. I hope that can determine which amendment they think should be plays its part in making the legislation that goes through put before the House. I shall be interested to hear in due this House better than it would otherwise be. So I am course the views of my hon. Friends the Members for grateful to him for the amendments that he tabled. Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch set me and anybody else, including perhaps the sponsor of the a challenge to give him some guidance as to which Bill. When he responds to my remarks in relation to amendment I thought was the one that he should press, the amendments, we will be able to judge which one he so I shall try to give— thinks is the strongest and the one in respect of which he has the greatest difficulty in putting forward a cogent Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I response. am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that preamble to The issue of charging points for electric vehicles is the remarks that he is now going to make on the Bill. I one that we need to take seriously. The provisions of the just remind him and his hon. Friend the Member for Bill could be a precedent which is established across the Christchurch (Mr Chope) that it is up to the Chair to country. It has taken a long time for the Bill to reach decide where the votes are, but obviously the hon. this stage. Bearing in mind that it is Government policy Member for Christchurch will need to consider which to facilitate the production and use of electric vehicles amendments he wishes to move or, with leave, withdraw. and to try to make it practical for people who have such Mr Davies, if you could come to the amendments, vehicles to travel around not just the conurbation but rather than the general skills, excellent though they are, the country, I hope we will hear from the Government of the hon. Member for Christchurch in considering on the subject and also from the hon. Member for private Bills, I would be grateful. Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), who I welcome to the debate to speak on behalf of the Opposition. Her Philip Davies: I, too, am grateful, Madam Deputy predecessor, the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse Speaker. You are of course right, so without further (Jim Fitzpatrick), attended the previous debate in his ado I will get straight down to the amendments. capacity as a Front-Bench spokesman. I was very sorry Amendment 21 is one that I cannot possibly support, that he chose to resign his position because he had been but I understand where my hon. Friend is coming from. a great servant of the House and had contributed well I am not entirely sure—perhaps the promoter of the Bill 1111 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1112 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill can let us know—but I presume that the Bill, and 9pm clause 16 in particular, was introduced to enable the Mr Chope: I am not suggesting what my hon. Friend implementation of “An Electric Vehicle Delivery Plan has just said. I would support him in an aspiration that for London”, a document issued by the Mayor in May the number of public off-street car parks under the 2009. I presume that that document was the genesis of management and control of local authorities should be the legislation. Clause 16 currently states: significantly reduced by means of being sold by those “ALondon authority may provide and operate charging apparatus authorities. My amendment is saying that if car parks for electrically powered motor vehicles”. are managed and controlled by the local authority, that The amendment would make that: authority shall set up charging points. “A London authority shall provide”. Philip Davies: My hon. Friend puts a slightly different It seems to me that the merits of the amendment, as far complexion on matters, if I understand him correctly; if as the Bill is concerned, can be determined by asking I have not, he must pull me up. If he is suggesting that whether or not the clause would fulfil the pledge and the onerous requirement on local authority car parks is the ideas behind the Mayor’s document. to encourage authorities to sell off the car parks so that The Mayor’s document sets some ambitious targets they do not have to fulfil that requirement, I do at last for the use of electric vehicles. It states that the delivery see what he is driving at. I start to see the merits of his plan will plan. I was not aware of what his real agenda was; it is a “Work with the boroughs and other partners to deliver 25,000 charge “privatisation of car parks” amendment, rather than points across London by 2015… including a network of fast one about the privatisation of charging apparatus. I will charge sites—500 on-street, 2,000 in off-street public car parks, have to rethink my views. station car parks”. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East knows Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend not agree that in much more than I do about the number of these things view of the fact that subsection (2) is merely a permissive in London and their geography, so perhaps he can say power—it says “may grant” rather than “will grant”—no whether the Bill, as currently drafted, with the word harm will come from its being left in the Bill? “may”, would deliver the numbers set out in the document, or whether it needs the harsher wording, with “shall”, Philip Davies: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. When to hit those targets, because the document seems to be I am on the opposite side of an argument from that of the genesis of the Bill. Having said that, whether we my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, I wonder agree with the Mayor’s ambitions is a slightly different whether I am on the wrong side of the argument. matter. Having the robust support of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) will reinforce my confidence My view, for what it is worth, is that we should not that I am on the right side. compel London local authorities to provide and operate The desire of my hon. Friend the Member for charging apparatus in every public off-street car park, Christchurch to use the amendment to force the privatisation as amendments 21 and 22 propose. There might be no of car parks may have merit. If he were back in charge demand in certain parts of some London boroughs. We of a local authority, he might decide that that was the might not really want local authorities doing it themselves best way to go. I am not convinced that other local anyway. Perhaps we would like other people involved in authorities would take that view, so the provision would provision, not least to get some competition going. end up being an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer. Competition, of course, is the best way to drive down The amendment is therefore not worthy of support, prices. I seems to me that the monopoly my hon. Friend despite his best efforts to rescue support for what might envisages, unusually, would not be in the best interests otherwise be thought of as a poor amendment. of the consumer or the taxpayer, who might end up paying unnecessarily to have charging apparatus installed I turn back to amendment 24. In effect, preventing in places where it is not needed and never will be. local authorities from allowing the private sector to run Putting such apparatus in every public off-street car charging apparatuses on their behalf would be a retrograde park under the control of the local authority seems step. If we are to embark on this project, the merits of extremely demanding. It is something that I cannot support. the amendments are not necessarily relevant. We have I urge my hon. Friend not to press amendments 21 and to presume that we are going down this route. If we are, 22, and on that basis, I could not support amendment 23, I would like the private sector to be involved; it would as it is consequential to amendments 21 and 22. have an awful lot to offer and could probably show local authorities how to operate the points better, more efficiently Unusually, my hon. Friend and I have got off on a and more cheaply. To prevent the private sector from bad footing, and the situation is not particularly helped being involved, as my hon. Friend envisages with by amendment 24; we may have started off badly with amendment 24, is not sensible. I cannot support the amendments 21, 22 and 23, but we appear to be going amendment. downhill rapidly with amendment 24. It would strike out subsection (2), which allows a London authority to Amendment 25 is a consequential amendment to amendment 24 that also reinforces it, so if I cannot “grant a person permission to provide or operate charging support amendment 24 I certainly cannot support apparatus”— amendment 25. On that basis—my hon. Friend will in effect, on its behalf. It seems that, strangely, my hon. correct me if I am wrong—I do not think I can support Friend wants to prevent the local authority from introducing amendment 26 either. I think that for the first time in any private enterprise, in effect ensuring that all such my short time in the House I have found that I cannot things are state owned and run. That is an extraordinary support the first six amendments tabled by my hon. state of affairs to be asked to support. Friend. I hope that that will never be repeated in future. 1113 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1114 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [Philip Davies] authorised person. As I said earlier, I am for having authorised people other than the local authority, so for On amendment 27, my hon. Friend is back on normal that reason amendments 32, 33 and 34 should be discarded. form again, because he is absolutely right about subsection (7). I am not a legal expert, as he is, but it Bob Blackman: And amendments 35 and 36. seems to me that in the normal way of things people are responsible for their equipment. The subsection implies Philip Davies: My hon. Friend, the sponsor of the that everybody in the whole country, apart from London Bill, is getting ahead of me. He is clearly a much faster local authorities, is responsible for any accidents, damage reader than I am. He is ahead of the game and is or incidents that happen as a result of their equipment. absolutely right that amendments 35 and 36 are also I am sure that the Government’s view and Parliament’s relevant. view is that people should be responsible for their own My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is on stuff. It is utterly unacceptable to say that we are going to a good thing with amendment 37. It seems ridiculous to exempt London local authorities willy-nilly from the that the only duty in clause 18(1) is to consult. The title normal course of the law. Why on earth we should think of the clause is: “Duties to consult or obtain consent”. that the state should be exempt from all the normal Somebody taking a fleeting look at the Bill would think things that apply to everybody else is beyond me. I hope that obtaining consent was an important part of it, but that the promoter of the Bill will reflect on this, because my hon. Friend is right that subsection (1) mentions it drives a coach and horses through what we would expect only consultation, which is not good enough. Consent in this country. I certainly encourage my hon. Friend must be obtained; otherwise it is a potential affront to the Member for Christchurch to pursue amendment 27. local democracy. What on earth is the point of consulting On amendment 28, my hon. Friend is again on to a if no regard is to be given to the views of the consultation? very good point. In seeking to strike out subsection (8), That would be a pointless exercise. If an authority has he focuses on the part where it says that decided that it is going ahead with something and then “it shall be presumed that the person in charge of the relevant simply goes through the motions, that would be a waste vehicle at the relevant time had responsibility for and control of of time. the cable.” The person in charge at the time may well have control of the cable—it is probably self-evident that if they are Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is making a good point using it they have control of it—but to say that they about the contrast in clause 18 whereby the local planning have responsibility for that piece of equipment is a step authority has to be consulted but Network Rail too far. As my hon. Friend said, we would not expect Infrastructure Ltd and London Underground Ltd have somebody filling up at a petrol station to take full to give their consent, so they are being given a privileged, responsibility for the pumps they were filling up from. I elevated position compared with the local planning cannot believe that anybody in this House would think authority, to which local residents look for protection that. If people should not take full responsibility for the against unwanted developments. pumps when they are filling up their car with petrol, why on earth should they take responsibility for the Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. cables when they are charging their car? The same rules One could argue that it should be the other way around: should apply. It might be a different form of fuel, but companies such as Network Rail are not accountable to the same principles should apply across the board. the public in the same way as the planning authority or Leaving aside control of the cable, it is unacceptable to as responsive to the public mood. Surely we should impose responsibility for it. For that reason alone, expect the consent of the relevant local authority to be I support my hon. Friend in wanting to strike out obtained. subsection (8). Of course, if it did not include the words The point is—I am sure we all have examples of this “responsibility for”, I might take a different view, but as in our constituencies—that the public have completely it stands it is unacceptable. Subsection (9) relates to the lost faith in consultations, and this Bill reinforces that. previous subsection, so we do not need to waste much People are conned into thinking that statutory consultations time on that. are meaningful and that they matter and will make a I was puzzled by the Bill’s sponsor, my hon. Friend the difference, only to find that their views are completely Member for Harrow East, saying that he was willing to ignored and overridden. People lose faith in the whole accept amendment 30, because it seems to fly in the face process and end up not engaging in anything, because of what my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch they think it is a waste of time. was trying to achieve with his previous amendments. I I am afraid that this clause reinforces something that understand now, however, that my hon. Friend the does a great disservice to our democracy: sham Member for Christchurch is throwing in the towel—I consultations which people go through simply because certainly hope he is—with regard to amendments 21, 22 there is a statutory requirement to do so. Nobody takes and 23. Amendment 30 seems to pre-empt that throwing notice of them, because the decision has already been in of the towel, because it suggests a much more sensible made and they are a minor inconvenience. People say, state of affairs whereby my hon. Friend accepts that the “We’ve got to waste a bit of time on this consultation, private sector could be involved and that the wires it go through the motions and look as if we’re doing provides should also be covered. For that reason, something,” knowing full well that not a blind bit of amendment 30 is sensible and I am pleased that my notice will be taken of what anybody says. The only hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East accepts it. thing worse than not consulting people is to consult We do not need to waste time on amendment 31. them and take no notice of them. I say to the sponsor of Amendment 32 takes us back to the point made by my the Bill that if there is no requirement to take any notice hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch about the of the consultation, do not have a consultation in the 1115 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1116 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill first place. The local authorities should be open and However, I think that clause 19 is worse than that, as honest about the fact that they do not care what local I set out in my intervention. I agree with my hon. Friend residents think and plough on with what they are doing, the Member for Christchurch that we do not need this without going through what we all know is an absolute offence, but some people may still think that we do. sham which does a great disservice to public life and Whether or not people think we need the offence, the public bodies. way in which the clause is drafted makes it a complete nonsense anyway, because it focuses on making somebody not guilty of the offence if they 9.15 pm “had the permission of the person who operated the charging My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is apparatus at the time”. therefore absolutely right to say through amendment 37 Who is operating the charging apparatus at the time is that consent must be obtained to ensure that the process neither here nor there when it comes to whether any is democratic and locally accountable. I believe that the electricity theft is taking place, as my hon. Friend the sponsor of the Bill is, like me, a big fan of the Government’s Member for Christchurch has set out. Anybody could localism agenda. It seems to me that clause 18(1) flies in be operating the charging apparatus, but it is the person the face of localism. If we really believe in localism, we who is paying for the charging apparatus at the time should seek to gain the consent of people as low down who should give permission. Who is holding the baby the chain as possible and at the most local level. If the or operating the machine at the time is irrelevant; it sponsor is a supporter of the localism agenda, he should could be anybody. Therefore, even if an offence is want to ensure not only that local people are consulted, necessary—I am convinced that it is not—the measure but that their views count. Their decision should be gives a get-out-of-jail card to the wrong people on the final in matters that affect them. It should not be wrong premise. If my hon. Friend the Member for possible for a much wider and greater London authority, Harrow East, the Bill’s sponsor, thinks about clause 19 such as Transport for London or whoever it might be, logically, he will realise that it is defective, that it will not to ride roughshod over those local views. achieve what he wants it to achieve, and that, at best, he needs to go back to the drawing board, although I am As a keen supporter of the Government’s localism with my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch in agenda, I have to support amendment 37. I hope that, believing that it should be struck out altogether. on reflection, the sponsor of the Bill will see the merits of that. That would save an awful lot of aggro later I worry that, if some of my hon. Friend’s amendments down the line. If he wants to see the effective roll-out of on facilitating a speedier roll-out are made, he would electric vehicles and charging points, and all the end up using up the budget provided by the Government infrastructure that goes with that, he should realise that in London and deprive other areas of the country such it would be done best and probably quickest if it had the as Yorkshire of any available funds. In their recent consent of the local people who would be affected. The document “Driving the future today: a strategy for best way to stop such things in their tracks is to create ultra low emission vehicles in the UK”, which has only the uproar that occurs when local people see that their just been published, the Government say that they have views have not been taken into account. That will stop funded the Office for Low Emission Vehicles to co-ordinate other people from going down the same route and will Government support with probably end up slowing down the roll-out of these “a provision for £400 million funding to 2015”. things. I know that his priority in clause 18(1) is to The problem is that if my hon. Friend’s amendments speed up the process and ensure that the roll-out happens were accepted, the Government funding could be used as fast as possible, come what may, but I think that it up quickly in London and there would be little left for will slow down the process in the long run as people say elsewhere. On that additional basis, I hope he will that they are not satisfied with being consulted and then reconsider his amendments. ignored. I do not intend to detain the House any longer. In With amendment 38, we are back on to authorised summary, I hope that my hon. Friend thinks again on people. Again, that amendment is not something that I amendments 21 to 26; that he knocks on the head can support. The same applies to amendment 39. amendments 32 to 36 and amendments 38 and 39; and My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch made that he focuses his and the House’s attention on a compelling case for amendment 40, which would leave amendments 27, 28, 37 and 40—amendment 30 has out clause 19. He can always be relied on in debates already been accepted—which have an awful lot to such as this to find something that, when put under commend them. The logic of those amendments is with scrutiny, collapses before our very eyes. If there is one my hon. Friend, and if he pressed any of them to a amendment in this group that shows part of the Bill to Division, I would enthusiastically support them. However, be utterly ridiculous, it is amendment 40. As he made if he sees fit to press the other amendments, and particularly clear, existing statute suffices. We should not want to amendment 21, I am afraid that, albeit reluctantly, I add extra offences to the statute book. My understanding would have to part company with him, which is a rare is that the Government’s agenda is to remove unnecessary occurrence for me, and support the Bill’s sponsor. I offences from the statute book. Given that my hon. absolutely could not support amendment 21. Friend has pointed out how unnecessary this offence is because it is covered elsewhere, this is a perfect example Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend the Member of where the Government can deliver on what they say for Christchurch (Mr Chope) for his amendments, and strike out an offence before it even comes into his speech and his comprehensive description of the effect. I hope that the sponsor of the Bill will support amendments. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member the Government’s agenda of striking out unnecessary for Shipley (Philip Davies) for explaining his position offences and show them that he means business. on them. 1117 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1118 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [Bob Blackman] should not have a duty to consider installing charging points. Local authorities may lead; the private sector In commencing my response, it is important to note might jump ahead of them. That confirms the view that that we are talking about the future of the motor local authorities should not have to provide electric industry in this country. I take the view that within the charging points when the private sector has provided next couple of years the private vehicle of choice will be them already in petrol stations. Indeed, one frequently the electric car. It is therefore essential that electric finds petrol stations co-located with local authority car charging points are placed around London in appropriate parks, for example, so why should the local authority be places for people to charge their vehicles—there is currently under an obligation to provide charging points when limited capacity—so that we can encourage people to the private sector is providing them anyway? In my take up this new form of transport. view, the market should take over. Before I respond to the amendments, it is important to note that there are two sets of provisions: one for car 9.30 pm parks, which may be operated by the local authority, In some car parks across London it would be wholly Transport for London, London Underground and other inappropriate to have charging points, but amendment 22 bodies; and the other for the public highway, where the would require local authorities to provide them, even if provision is likely to be, although not exclusively, where they were never used and never appropriate. I cannot meters and so on are currently provided. They will describe every single car park in London—however operate in tandem. The point at which the vehicle can tempting that may be—but that would be the position. be connected to the charging point will be provided, and the issue is then the cable connection between the Amendment 23 is another one that is a bit bizarre. It charging point and the vehicle. Motor manufacturers would downgrade the responsibility of local authorities may come up with different arrangements for that to provide electric charging points on the public highway. connection and we cannot pre-judge that. My hon. The local authority would have a duty to provide electric Friend the Member for Shipley pointed out that the charging points, but only “on a discretionary basis”. Mayor of London’s key strategic vision, which I support The amendment is badly drafted, and I urge my hon. wholeheartedly, is for the roll-out of electric charging Friend the Member for Christchurch not to press it to a points across London in a big way. I trust that where vote for that reason alone. London leads the rest of the country will follow. Mr Nuttall: With the greatest respect, the words “on Amendment 21 would require a local authority to a discretionary basis” merely refer to the erection of provide the charging apparatus in every car park it charging points on the highway, not in car parks. There operates. In London, there are car parks with space for is a distinction. 10 vehicles and some with space for hundreds of vehicles. It should not be the duty of a London authority to have Bob Blackman: I completely accept my hon. Friend’s to provide electric charging points at every car park. intervention: amendment 23 would relate to the highway. London authorities are clear that they want to do However, if a local authority was not too keen, it could this—they do not need to be told that they must do so. I place one charging point somewhere on the public therefore urge my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch highway in its borough and thereby perform its duty, to withdraw the amendment. How would the proposal which would be bizarre. I suggest that amendment 23 is work? How many points would have to be provided, not very sensible. and over what time scale? There is an incentive for local authorities to provide charging points in car parks, but to oblige them to do so would lead to the questions: Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): If such cars when would it be a requirement to do so, for how many, are popular, surely the private sector will provide charging and who would enforce it? points anyway. We do not have municipal petrol stations, so what is the problem? Philip Davies: I think I am with my hon. Friend, broadly. He said he was a big supporter of the Mayor of Bob Blackman: The thrust of the amendments is to London’s document, “An Electric Vehicle Delivery Plan require public authorities to provide charging points; for London”. How can he guarantee that its ambitious the thrust of the Bill is to allow them to provide targets will be hit? The Bill as currently drafted contains charging points if they so wish. That is why I am urging no requirement for local authorities to do this; there is my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch not to only the hope that they will. press his amendments. Amendment 24 is particularly pernicious, because it Bob Blackman: London local authorities are ambitious would remove the power of local authorities to get the and keen to get on with the job. They do not need to be market—either electricity companies or other third party told that they have to do it. Some of the other amendments providers—to install charging points in car parks or on would make it harder for local authorities to introduce the highway, when that is something we should encourage charging points. wholeheartedly. Amendments 25, 26, 32 to 36, 38 and 39 are consequential on amendment 24, so I would urge Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend not think that if my hon. Friend to withdraw them en bloc. there is a demand for charging points, then private sector operators—for example, filling stations—will meet Amendment 27 is about local authorities’ liability. If that demand by providing charging points in their stations? a local authority grants permission to a third party, be it an electricity company or someone in the private Bob Blackman: I predict that in the coming years sector, it should be the people who have installed the petrol stations will provide electric charging points, in charging point and operated it who take the liability. addition to petrol. That is not to say that local authorities The effect of my the amendment would be to place the 1119 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1120 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill liability on to the authority, rather than on to the people Mr Chope: My hon. Friend says that he does not who implemented the service. I would urge my hon. envisage local authorities providing the cables, so why Friend not to press that amendment, as the liability do we need to cover a situation in which cables are should fall on the third party, if that is who is chosen. provided by authorities? The other issue is that if a local authority is negligent, it cannot discharge that liability. However, the key point is Bob Blackman: In some car parks, a local authority about the damage and injury caused by the presence of might wish to control the process. I do not envisage charging apparatus, which would probably be an issue cables being littered all along the public highway, but for either the third party or the individual who misused local authorities could provide cables in car parks, the charging point. particularly when there is someone present to ensure that the process is operated properly. It is important to Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is making a valiant be clear about whose responsibility this would be. Indeed, attempt to justify his argument, but this is a local there could be an issue in civil court proceedings in that authority Bill and of course local authorities are going regard. Amendment 31 would remove the definition of to want legislation to be passed which states that they a connecting cable, which could be dangerous. The term are not liable for anything. Surely it is the duty of this “connecting cable” is clearly defined in the Bill and the House to say that that is unacceptable and that if local amendment is not helpful. I urge my hon. Friend not to authorities want to indulge in this kind of activity, they press it. will have to accept that same kind of liability that Amendment 37 relates to the way in which permission applies to other people. Parliament cannot allow local is given and the consultation that should take place. We authorities to write their own laws, willy-nilly, to exempt are talking about potentially 25,000 of these charging themselves from any liabilities. points, to which my hon. Friend has alluded, right across London—and possibly more. The amendment Bob Blackman: I accept the principle behind my hon. would require planning permission to be given for each Friend’s point, but if a local authority is negligent, it of those charging points, at a time when I would suggest cannot discharge that liability. Let us remember that the that the Government are trying to move away from the charging points will be on the public highway and in whole process of granting planning permission. We are public car parks. If someone abuses a charging point, talking about two aspects: one is the public highway; that must be their responsibility rather than that of the the other is council-operated car parks. Clearly, the only local authority. Clearly, if something had been incorrectly people who would have any concerns about council- connected or was dangerous, that would be the responsibility operated car parks would be the council and the potential of the local authority, or of the third party operating users of the car park. The users will not be consulted—they the facility on its behalf, to fix it, but only if the may use the car park, but would not have any rights problem were caused by the authority’s negligence. over what happens in it—so only the planning authority would be consulted. Under those circumstances, the Let us move on to amendment 28. If someone has requirement to obtain planning permission seems like used their own connecting cable to plug their vehicle overkill. into a charging point on a public highway or in a public car park, the local authority should not have to accept Philip Davies: Will my hon. Friend give way? any liability.The responsibility should lie with the individual who has plugged in their vehicle. It is an accepted Bob Blackman: Let me explain the other issue—about provision for various electrical devices that it is up to the public highway—first. If we ended up having to the user to accept responsibility for the cable that they grant planning permission for all the different boxes are using. I urge my hon. Friend the Member for that are going to placed alongside parking meters on Christchurch not to press the amendment. Amendment 29 the public highway, it would again lead to complete is consequential on the outcome of amendment 28. overkill. What the promoters suggest—and planning authorities in London, by the way, have given their Mr Nuttall: I have listened carefully to my hon. consent to it—is that they are happy to be consulted Friend, and his argument would be all very well were it without having to go through giving full planning not for the fact that a “connecting cable” is defined in permission for this to operate. They are content in that clause 16(11) as being this is London local authorities dealing with London “any cable or wire, whether provided by the authority or otherwise, planning authorities—funnily enough, they are the same used to connect the charging apparatus to a vehicle”. thing—so in those circumstances, it again seems like overkill. On that basis, the connecting cable could have been Philip Davies: It is not the local authorities, but local provided by the local authority. residents, that I care about. My hon. Friend makes great play of how the Bill will be used in practice, but a Bob Blackman: In practice, the motor manufacturers full planning meeting will not have to be convened for will provide cables to connect their vehicles to the every one of these requests. Rather, this is a safeguard. electric charging points. The end of the cable that Most of the consents can be given in a flash by the connects to the charging point will probably be common planning authority—we do not need to go through a to all cables, but the end that connects to the car could full planning meeting for a planning authority to give be different in the case of each make of vehicle. I consent—but ensuring that consent has to be given suggest that local authorities will therefore not provide provides an essential safeguard for the one or two cases cables, and that it will be up to the individual car owner that might be contentious in the local community, even to bring the cable with them when they want to charge though my hon. Friend might not be able to envisage their vehicle. That is why the amendments are unnecessary. them. 1121 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1122 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Bob Blackman: Having served as a councillor on a The promoters are keen to ensure that there is a local authority for 24 years before coming to this place, designated offence in this regard, and I agree with them. I can confirm what the position would be, and it would There are to be at least 25,000 charging points in mean the local authority having to give planning permission London. Given that local authorities are already for every single one of these charging points. A planning experiencing severe problems with thefts from parking application would have to be taken out—at a cost, by meters and similar devices in London, we must make it the way, to the local council tax payer—and those clear to the public that interfering with charging points considering the planning applications would then have could be dangerous. We need a specific deterrent rather to advertise locally and send to every local resident in than relying on the offence of electricity theft, because the immediate area where the charging point was to be interfering with these devices would not just be theft. It sited an invitation to lodge an objection. I suggest that could, for instance, be vandalism. that whole process would be extremely bureaucratic and unnecessary. Mr Chope: Unfortunately, there is no reference In considering implementing the charging points, any to vandalism in the clause, which refers specifically to local authority worth its salt would consult individual someone who residents as appropriate and advise them through “uses charging apparatus in contravention of a sign”. publications or notifications what is going to take place. There would then need to be a process for finding a Someone who vandalises, abuses or interferes with such reasonable mix in respect of where the charging points apparatus is not using it. My hon. Friend mentioned would be. That would be preferable to requiring full-blown the problem of theft from parking meters. I imagine planning permission, which I think would be draconian, that that is dealt with not by a specific offence of would slow the process down considerably and would stealing from a parking meter, but by the offence of theft. lead to extremely high costs for the individuals putting Surely exactly the same principle could apply to the in the charging points—costs that are completely theft of electricity, which is already an offence on the unnecessary. statute book.

Mr Chope: I take my hon. Friend’s point that we do Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying not want to have thousands of planning applications, his purpose, but I think we should make it clear that but is there not a middle way? Could this not be done, misusing a charging point, or using it without appropriate for example, through permitted development rights? authority, is an offence, and that a penalty will be imposed Putting a charging apparatus on the street could be if someone is convicted of such an offence. That is what granted permitted development unless there were objections the promoters want, and I strongly support it. from neighbours—a form of permitted development I urge my hon. Friend not to press his amendment to similar to what the Government have recently brought a vote. It is clear that the offence of electricity theft in for extensions to domestic houses. would not necessarily cover all aspects of unauthorised Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for that use of a charging point. Clause 19 makes that a specific suggestion. The key here is consulting the planning offence, and makes it clear both to members of the authorities on their approach to a particular area, but public and to the courts what the penalties would be. I let me come back to the effect of the amendment. It think that removing it would constitute a very dangerous would effectively require the local authority to go through precedent, because local authorities would have to use the wholesale planning permission process. On that some other part of the law to enforce the rules. Given basis, I urge my hon. Friend not to press the amendment. that there is to be a new basis for the provision and charging of private vehicles, we need sensible measures to deal with unauthorised use of the new devices. 9.45 pm Amendment 40 deals with the unlawful use of electric Let me say on behalf of the promoters that we are charging points. It should be borne in mind that such happy to accept amendment 30. I urge my hon. Friend charging points will be in car parks run by local authorities, not to press the remaining amendments, but if he chooses or on the public highway. My hon. Friend said that the to do so, we will oppose them. issue of electricity theft was behind the amendment, but electricity theft nearly always takes place within the Mr Nuttall: It is, as always, a pleasure to follow my confines of property, and is perpetrated by people who hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman). bypass a meter or do something similar. What is needed I thank him for the good-natured way in which he has in this instance is a provision that makes it an offence to steered this Bill through a number of sittings on the interfere with devices that are on the public highway, or Floor of the House, and in particular for the very to misuse them in any way. helpful way he has steered through these amendments, It should be made clear to members of the public that all of which relate to part 5 of the Bill dealing with if they interfere with such devices, they will face a charging points for electric vehicles. They were so ably penalty in a civil court. I believe that the penalty has moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch been set at level 3, which currently means a fine of up to (Mr Chope) at the outset of this brief debate. £1,000. However, I understand that the Ministry of This whole issue is important on a variety of levels Justice is still consulting on an increase, and that the and for a variety of reasons, but particularly because it amount could rise to £4,000. Of course, every case will addresses a growth area. As my hon. Friend made clear be judged on its merits, and, were someone convicted of in his opening remarks, this is an area that will receive a such an offence, it would be up to the court to decide great deal of attention in the months and years ahead. what the penalty should be. That, I think, is wholly The sorts of issues we have debated this evening will be appropriate. debated at length in the years to come and some of the 1123 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1124 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill problems we have identified will be applicable not only in effect, the nationalisation of this scheme. Like my to London, but throughout the country, and I regard hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, I am surprised this Bill as a blueprint for what will follow. that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch I wonder if it might have been better for this whole tabled this amendment, as it goes against what I would issue of charging points for electric vehicles to have have thought were his normal instincts in these matters. been dealt with on a national basis so that we could deal Nevertheless, it has been tabled and we must consider it. with it across the nation, with a single set of rules and It has a number of consequential amendments, all regulations, rather than just dealing with it, as this Bill relating to “authorised persons”. Reference has been does, on a piecemeal basis for London alone. made to those, so, for speed of debate, I will not go through them again. The point is: if London local What I call the first sub-group of amendments deals authorities are going to be given this power, it is entirely with the provision of charging apparatus within car fair and reasonable that they should have permission to parks and on the public highway. Essentially, the issue is allow another authorised person, if they so wish, to do this: who should have the responsibility for providing this work on their behalf and operate these charging these charging points? Should it be, as my hon. Friend points. the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) suggested, purely the private sector, or should it be, as my hon. Friend the The next amendments deal with the issue of liability Member for Christchurch would have it in these for these charging points, and we have heard a number amendments, purely the local authorities, or should of arguments tonight as to where that responsibility there be a mix of the two? should lie. I can only assume that the objective of subsection (7), which would be removed if amendment 27 If the amendments are agreed to, essentially a monopoly were accepted, is to try to absolve local authorities of would be created for the London local authorities, in responsibility. There can be no other reason for it. If the sense that the permissive nature of clause 16(1) they were not negligent, they would not have anything which says they to fear; there would be no problem. I am suspicious “may provide and operate charging apparatus for electrically about why the subsection is in the Bill at all and I agree powered motor vehicles” entirely with amendment 27, which I would support if it would be changed, and the provision would state they were pressed to a Division later this evening. “shall” do those things. Under clause 16(1)(a) they would be required to provide those charging points in every single “public off-street car park” and under 10 pm subsection (b), on a discretionary basis, on the I would also support amendment 28, which deals “highway for which they are responsible as highway authority.” with the determination of liability for someone using one of these charging points. The Bill states: In my view that goes way too far. “For the purposes of determining, in any proceedings in a On this amendment and consequential amendments, court of civil jurisdiction, who is liable for injury, damage or loss I am entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for resulting from the presence on a highway or public off-street car Harrow East and the promoters of the Bill in that I park of a connecting cable at or near charging apparatus provided think the London local authorities should not be forced under this section, it shall be presumed that the person in charge to provide these charging points. This part of the Bill is of the relevant vehicle at the relevant time had responsibility for entirely superfluous. Given the Localism Act 2011, I and control of the cable.” question whether there is a need for specific provisions In other words, the subsection is very serious, in that it to give London local authorities the power to provide makes a presumption that a charged person accused of and operate charging apparatus for electrically powered having committed an offence under the Bill would find motor vehicles. Under the general power that all local it difficult to rebut. There would be a statutory presumption authorities were granted under that Act, they may that they were at fault, that they had responsibility for already have these powers, should they choose to investigate and control of the cable and that they were responsible the matter and make use of them. for any injury, damage or loss resulting from the cable This should be left for the market to decide, as was being there. made clear by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow As has been evident from this evening’s debate, there East. We are talking about providing the energy to is some lack of clarity about exactly what a connecting power vehicles. Nobody has ever suggested that local cable is and whether, for example, it would be connected authorities should be responsible for providing diesel or to the charging point or the car. I suspect that that is the petrol and setting up their own petrol stations, so why root cause of the confusion. I can well understand local does this Bill contemplate giving them the power to authorities not wanting to be liable for connecting provide charging points for electric vehicles? Why the cables that come from the car but, as I tried to point out difference? At the start of the 20th century were our earlier, that is not the definition in subsection (11). forebears in this place suggesting that the local authorities “Connecting cable” is specifically defined as of the day set up petrol stations for the newly invented “any cable…whether provided by the authority or otherwise, used combustion engine? I suggest that they were not. On to connect the charging apparatus to a vehicle and that is not that basis, I am suspicious about amendment 21 and the permanently attached to the charging apparatus”. two consequential amendments, 22 and 23. I have to There is some confusion and I am grateful to my hon. inform my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch Friend the Member for Christchurch for drawing it to that if they are pushed to a vote, I would vote against the attention of the House. I hope that his amendments them. go some way towards rectifying the problem. Amendment 24 would remove clause 16(2), which The next amendments are all consequential on the gives local authorities the power to provide for someone removal of the words “authorised person”, so I will not else to operate these charging points, and would mean, deal with them. 1125 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1126 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Let me turn now to amendment 37, which replaces Those are my brief thoughts on this group of the word “consulted” in line two of clause 18 with the amendments. The House should be grateful to my hon. words “obtained the consent of”. Clearly, that is an Friend the Member for Christchurch for bringing absolutely crucial change. There is no point in merely the amendments before us today, not least because consulting another authority, and the much more clear amendment 30 has been accepted by the promoters of requirement that the consent of the other planning the Bill. This is not the first amendment that has been authorities is obtained makes much more sense. For accepted, so I am grateful to the promoters for having that reason, I have no difficulty in supporting that listened carefully to the arguments put forward by my amendment. hon. Friend and having paid due attention to his arguments. As we have heard, the Bill makes no provision for If I may make a closing bid, I think that of all the consulting other car park users. It has been suggested amendments, amendment 40 is the one that should be that there would be no need for such consultation, but I put to the vote. If it is, I can assure my hon. Friend of disagree, because car parks are often full to capacity my support. and if certain sections of a car park are to be cordoned off for use as charging spaces, that will affect other car Mr Chope: This is a notable debate for a number of park users. I could well envisage many disgruntled reasons, but one is that we have not heard from either people who are trying to park driving past a lot of the Minister or the official Opposition spokesman, yet empty spaces that have been kept for use only as charging we understand that the development of a network bays. I fear that the problem in practice will not be of charging points for electric vehicles is a key policy people making illegal use of the electricity, which I shall of both the Government and the Opposition. The way of deal with when I speak to amendment 40, but people implementing such a policy in London is what we have parking their petrol and diesel vehicles in spaces provided been discussing for the past couple of hours. I find it for electrical charging points, yet that is not covered by extraordinary, if not disturbing, that we have not heard the Bill. Perhaps that problem has not been thought from the Minister in response to the genuine questions about, but it represents a real risk, so it would be raised during the debate. sensible at least to carry out consultation with other It is invidious to make contrasts but I am going to do users. so. The way in which my hon. Friend the Member for If I had to pick only one of the many amendments in Harrow East has dealt with the debate is first class. The the group on which my hon. Friend the Member for whole purpose of scrutiny in the House is for questions Christchurch should test the will of the House, it would to be asked and answers to be given, and for that to be be amendment 40. The amendment is simple, given that done in a civilised way. It may well be that people have it would remove clause 19, which will create the new misunderstood the meaning of the Bill. They may have offence of the unlawful use of a charging point. The made nonsense of an amendment, but the only way of clause states that anyone found guilty of that offence testing that process is through a civilized exchange would be across the Floor of the House. “liable on a summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3”, My hon. Friend has shown during today’s proceedings which is presently £1,000, but might shortly increase to and in previous discussion of the Bill that if the Government £4,000. I accept that such a deterrent would be sufficient are interested in bringing forward Ministers who are to put anyone off making unlawful use of a charging good at responding to debates, taking seriously the point, but rather than putting people off, why not process of scrutiny and answering the questions, my encourage them to use the points? Why not say, “Here is hon. Friend is a model Minister in waiting. He has an electric charging point, so if you want to use it, do shown that he grasps the whole purpose of our Parliament, so”? When one pays for fuel at the pump with a credit which is to scrutinise the Executive, and the purpose of card, after putting in one’s card and entering the number, the Executive is to respond to that scrutiny. a specific amount of fuel—usually up to £99—can be Having come in for a bit of stick tonight in relation to drawn down. There might be a technical reason, but some of the amendments in the group, I remind the why could we not do the same for electricity? Why could House that it is a long-standing convention that if one not people enter their card and code so that electricity tables an amendment and it encounters quite a lot of up to a given amount could be dispensed? That ought opposition, one then downgrades one’s amendment by to be the way forward because we then would not need saying, “Well, after all, it is only a probing amendment.” to create an additional offence. That explains my rationale By force of argument, not least from my hon. Friend for supporting amendment 40, leaving aside the other the Member for Harrow East, and from my hon. Friends good arguments that we have already heard, with which the Members for Shipley and for Bury North, I have I entirely concur. been forced to downgrade my lead amendment to a There is no need to create this new offence when it probing amendment. However, it has been very effective would already be an offence to damage or vandalise a in probing and getting out of the promoters what they charging point, as that would be covered by criminal have in mind and why that amendment is ill-conceived, damage. In any event, there is no specific reference in like many of the others that go with it. Had the Minister clause 19, as it refers to using the apparatus responded, I might well have been pushed back into a more aggressive mode and become a little more “for any purpose other than charging a vehicle”. stubborn. I can only imagine what other uses it might be put to—perhaps charging a mobile phone or other equipment, such as a computer or laptop. Who knows what the 10.15 pm charging points will be used for. Local authorities could To sum up the debate, leaving aside those amendments use them as a money-making opportunity if they thought that were clearly probing, there is still disagreement wider than vehicles. between my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East 1127 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 London Local Authorities and 1128 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Transport for London (No. 2) Bill and the three of us who have spoken from the Back We then come to the additional point made by my Benches in relation to amendment 37, which relates to hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, who said that clause 18, and amendment 40, which relates to clause 19. clause 19(2) is badly drafted and makes it look as He opposes amendment 37 on the basis that it would be though we were dealing with the wrong person from demanding to expect local authorities to deal with whom permission would need to be obtained to establish potentially 25,000 planning applications, as we are talking a defence. That is a subsidiary argument against clause 19. about 25,000 charging points across London, and I conceded that that is correct. Mr Nuttall: I appreciate that my hon. Friend is On the other hand, I envisage enormous difficulties if completing his summary. Is he as surprised as I am that, the 25,000 charging points are installed in places where notwithstanding the courteous and careful way in which local residents do not want them to be. They are also a the amendments have been considered, only one has potential nuisance, because we do not yet know how been accepted? much noise they will generate. Will they be as loud as a fridge freezer at night, or louder? We do not know how Mr Chope: Having one amendment accepted is more much of a nuisance vehicles coming to charging points than was achieved during the earlier business—today, will be, or how long the process will take. When there is yesterday and the day before yesterday, with all the a shortage of charging points, will there be queues of might of the Opposition forces against the Government. vehicles waiting to use them, and might that obstruct I am grateful for small mercies. In fact, two amendments the streets? There are many big issues that could affect will have been accepted this evening, and that is pretty London residents. good. As I said, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East should be made a Minister; perhaps I might have Although clause 18 refers to consulting, it makes no a role in the official Opposition. We might be able to reference to meaningful consultation or to local authorities make more progress. having to listen to the views of residents. Without the wording being changed, all we can say is that if local I intend to withdraw amendment 21, move authorities do not listen to the views of their residents amendment 30 formally so that it can be accepted by on this, the whole means of bringing forward charging the House and test the opinion of the House on points to facilitate the expansion of electric vehicles in amendment 40. It would be a pity if those who have London will be inhibited and could become very unpopular. listened so attentively to this debate were deprived of That is one of the concerns referred to during the the opportunity of participating in a vote before we debate. As I recall, clause 18 also refers to consent reach the appointed time. having to be obtained from Network Rail and London I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Underground, which is a result of the petitions that Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. those organisations put in against the Bill. It is a pity Amendment made: 30—(Mr Chope.) that residents did not petition, as they might have been able to obtain a similar concession. Amendment 40 would delete clause 19. If we are Clause 19 talking about creating new criminal offences, we need to be very clear that they are needed. My hon. Friend the OFFENCE OF UNLAWFUL USE OF CHARGING POINT Member for Harrow East, in defending the Bill’s position, Amendment proposed: 40—(Mr Chope.) did his valiant best. He referred to the problem that Question put, That the amendment be made. many local authorities already have with theft from parking meters, but he did not suggest that that should The House divided: Ayes 4, Noes 36. be subject to a separate offence, because it is already Division No. 89] [10.25 pm covered by the Theft Act. He also said that he did not believe that the issue of interfering with a charging AYES apparatus could be ignored when drafting a Bill such as Bone, Mr Peter Tellers for the Ayes: this. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury Davies, Philip Mr Christopher Chope and North made clear, that would probably be an offence of Hollobone, Mr Philip Mr David Nuttall criminal damage. Do we need a new criminal offence Turner, Mr Andrew under clause 19? The wording of the clause would not even cover interference, as it specifically refers to the NOES use of Baker, Norman Greatrex, Tom “charging apparatus in contravention of a sign displayed”. Beith, rh Sir Alan Hands, Greg We do not yet know, because the technology and Blackman, Bob Harrington, Richard designs are still being developed, whether the charging Bradley, Karen Hughes, rh Simon apparatus will be the kind into which an electric kettle Buckland, Mr Robert Jones, Andrew can be plugged—a person might be able to have their Burley, Mr Aidan Lefroy, Jeremy Cairns, Alun Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian tea. Surely, however, it is sensible to legislate on the Menzies, Mark Coffey, Dr Thérèse basis that there is already a clear offence of theft of Pincher, Christopher electricity. Anybody who uses the apparatus without David, Wayne Pound, Stephen authority will be stealing the electricity. That is clear. If Davies, Geraint Reid, Mr Alan they interfere with or vandalise the charging apparatus, Ellis, Michael Rosindell, Andrew they will be guilty of criminal damage. There is no need Fovargue, Yvonne Roy, Mr Frank for the offence in clause 19; it would just litter the Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Skinner, Mr Dennis statute book, and we do not want to create more Glen, John Stewart, Iain criminal offences. Goodwill, Mr Robert Stunell, rh Sir Andrew 1129 London Local Authorities and 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 1130 Transport for London (No. 2) Bill Sturdy, Julian Wright, David Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Tellers for the Noes: Order No. 118(6)), Syms, Mr Robert Paul Uppal and Williamson, Gavin Nigel Mills SENIOR COURTS That the draft Court of Appeal (Recording and Broadcasting) Question accordingly negatived. Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 8 July, be approved.—(Mr Swayne.) 10.36 pm Question agreed to. More than three hours having elapsed since the start of proceedings, the business was interrupted (Order, 3 PETITION September). Bill to be read a Third time tomorrow. Beecroft Road Car Park Redevelopment

HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL 10.37 pm (FILMING ON HIGHWAYS) BILL [LORDS] Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): I have Bill to be read a Second time on Tuesday 8 October. great pleasure in presenting this petition that calls on Labour-led Cannock Chase district council to listen to the people it represents and to scrap its controversial Business without Debate proposal to redevelop Beecroft road car park into a shopping and leisure complex. DELEGATED LEGISLATION The petition, along with a petition on similar terms, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing has been signed by more than 2,600 of my constituents Order No. 118(6)), and the constituents of neighbouring colleagues—a number that is far higher than the mere 963 respondents LEGAL AID AND ADVICE to the councils narrow consultation. I pay tribute to That the draft Legal Aid (Information about Financial Resources) Allport Action Alliance and, in particular, to Helen and (Amendment) Regulations 2013, which were laid before this Robert Blaikie for all their hard work in collecting House on 20 May, be approved.—(Mr Swayne.) signatures and standing up against these horrendous Question agreed to. plans, which would see their family homes demolished for this vanity project of the council. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Local residents are already suffering from falling house prices due to the ongoing uncertainty. I strongly believe that it is unfair and unreasonable to leave local DEFENCE people worried about the future of their homes. No That the draft Armed Forces (Alcohol Limits for Prescribed Safety-Critical Duties) Regulations 2013, which were laid before interest has been shown in the site by retailers or developers. this House on 1 July, be approved.—(Mr Swayne.) Now is the time for the Labour council publicly and formally to scrap its proposal. Question agreed to. The petition states: Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), The Petition of residents of Cannock Chase, That the draft Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2013, Declares that the Petitioners do not support Cannock Chase which was laid before this House on 2 July, be approved.— District Council’s proposal to redevelop Beecroft Road Car Park (Mr Swayne.) for shopping and leisure; further that the Petitioners believe that the existing town centre needs support and the District Council Question agreed to. should focus on this instead with a more creative approach to Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing existing empty units; further that any proposals which risk the Order No. 118(6)), demolition of Allport Road homes are unfair to residents and should not be pursued; and that the present car parking space is necessary for visitors to the town centre and Cannock Hospital, NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE and it should not be reduced. That the draft Health and Social Care Act 2012 (Consequential The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Amendments) (No. 2) Order 2013, which was laid before this urge the Government to intervene in Cannock Chase Council’s House on 5 July, be approved.—(Mr Swayne.) planning for this redevelopment. Question agreed to. And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P001222] 1131 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Public Health England (Porton 1132 Down) Public Health England (Porton Down) advantage of geographical proximity will not, by itself, validate the business case for a move. However, there is Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House a natural synergy between the research conducted at do now adjourn.—(Mr Goodwill.) DSTL and CEPR. A single hub proposal also potentially loses the advantage of a site surrounded by Ministry of 10.40 pm Defence land, which minimises the risks of working John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): The purpose of this debate with animals and the most dangerous diseases in the is to seek an update from the Minister on the discussions world. on the future of Porton Down in my constituency. Since I was therefore relieved when, in August 2012, the the debate I called in June 2010, to which my hon. decision was made to delay the conclusions of Project Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) Chrysalis because the Treasury believed that considerably responded, I have had numerous interactions with Public more work needed to be done on the outline business Health England, formerly the Health Protection Agency, case to demonstrate value for money. At this point, about the future of the Centre for Emergency Preparedness Public Health England also commissioned a review by and Response, which is located at Porton. Professor George Griffin to look at whether the concept Porton Down is a world leader in high-quality of a single science hub was worthy of further investigation. microbiological research and testing, playing a vital role He concluded that it was, and in April this year Public in preparing, co-ordinating and manufacturing responses Health England began a further review into how the to health care emergencies. It is at the forefront of the business case fits with its vision for the future of its UK’s research into infectious diseases, holds four facilities overall. Running in parallel with this review, I international culture collections and has an international understand that the Cabinet Office has recently instigated reputation as a centre of excellence. a separate examination of the future of the development Public Health England’s site at Porton Down is therefore and production facilities at Porton. It is these two unique. It possesses two distinct world class capabilities: reviews that have prompted me to seek this second first, the translational research facility, which partners debate today. with academia, international agencies and companies Although I fully accept that it is not for me to dictate seeking specialist expertise in turning research concepts the outcome of any studies examining the options for into tangible products; and secondly, the production, Porton Down, it is imperative that decisions are made development and manufacturing capability, which represents on the basis of the evidence and have the broadest about a third of current operations. It is important to possible terms of reference. My concern is two strategic emphasise that, although the facilities are separate, projects are now under way, both of which have implications their co-location means they work closely together and for the wider scientific infrastructure of the UK, and we ensures that there is a cohesive resource to support the must get those decisions right. Government in the event of a national microbiological The first piece of work, now termed the single science emergency. hub, is essentially examining the business case for a Immediately adjacent to Public Health England’s consolidated PHE facility in Harlow. Public Health facilities at Porton are the Defence Science and Technology England, as an arm’s length body of the Department of Laboratory’s new multi-million pound headquarters. Health, has a specific core mission to secure and improve Some DSTL functions are complementary and contribute the health of the population. From that perspective, it is to the overall emergency response capability. Indeed, understandable that the wider commercial activities originally, the PHE and DSTL sites worked under the around translational research may not be deemed integral same banner. They continue to work closely together. to PHE’s core purposes. However, from a UK plc point That DSTL chose recently to relocate its headquarters of view, they are critical for the growth of the life to Porton Down as a result of its own estate consolidation sciences industry in the UK. Some of the projects being was a vote of confidence, and a demonstration of the carried out by this team include the largest pre-clinical value that the Ministry of Defence attaches to being TB vaccine evaluation in Europe, and supporting the close to the CEPR. US human health services with vaccine development. I As was acknowledged in the previous debate three have no wish to see the UK’s expertise dispersed across years ago, the laboratory facilities are in need of the globe in future due to the fact that it conceivably modernisation, both because of wear and tear and in exists within PHE but has ended up under the umbrella order to reflect the increased demands placed on Porton of a Government Department with a narrower mission, owing to the expanded responsibilities of Public Health where the skills could be seen as no longer entirely fitting. England. It was to address those problems that Project The crux of the issue is that Porton’s complexity Chrysalis was created in 2008 under my predecessor. means all its combined capabilities do not sit comfortably The project was designed to investigate the cost of with one Government Department or agency. The work refurbishment and subsequently to explore the possibility of translational research scientists is perhaps more in of moving some of Porton’s facilities to a new site in keeping with the Department for Business, Innovation Harlow, where they would be consolidated with other and Skills agenda to drive growth in the life sciences laboratory sites in the Public Health England portfolio. industry, while other work, in partnership with DSTL, In theory, this would create a single science hub for is of interest to the Ministry of Defence. Existing Public Health England. In practice, the complexity of a departmental delineations of responsibility must not move has generated as many questions as it answers. inhibit the right decisions about the future of translational The geographical distance between the various PHE research being made. sites has never been raised as an issue before. This is The second piece of work under way is confined to because there are few functional dependencies between the potential of the production and development facilities the different agencies, so I still maintain that the assumed alone. It might be suggested that Public Health England 1133 Public Health England (Porton 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Public Health England (Porton 1134 Down) Down) [John Glen] response capabilities. In peacetime, it would operate as a national translational research facility, with a key role could remove the need for investment in refurbished in delivering the Government’s life sciences strategy. facilities by entering into partnership arrangements or This overall vision represents a commercialisation of other commercial propositions, but that could entail the the facility’s scientific potential, while protecting its UK losing its sovereign capability to produce vaccines public role in emergencies. in a biological emergency. Key public functions must be As the Department of Health’s antimicrobial resistance safeguarded, including the only anthrax vaccine licence strategy set out yesterday, in Europe, as well as the emergency response training “the relevant Research Councils, industry and third sector should undertaken across the public and private sectors. I work together to establish a range of new mechanisms to facilitate recognise the financial options for the production and greater collaborative working”. development facilities, but their relationship with Porton is one of the best-placed sites in the country to translational research scientists is an operating reality develop of what currently goes on at Porton and is of wider value to the UK economy. They do not just generate “coalitions between academia and biopharmaceutical companies” new products for market; they also maximise the potential and has a proven track record of doing so. Without receipts from the development of new ideas. doubt, the scientists at Porton Down are world class. A Exploring the future of production and development unique relationship exists in the Wessex Life Sciences separately means that there is a risk that this valuable Cluster, which includes PHE and DSTL’s capabilities, translational research capability could be lost to the alongside Salisbury district hospital, Wessex Genetics UK, because its role is not about short-term commercial and the university of Southampton. This makes it ideally receipts, but about generating value for UK plc through located to work with others and to take products from high-level research that requires a degree of investment concept to market, as the Department of Health strategy and flexible, innovative collaboration with other bodies sets out. The strategy goes on to state that the Department and scientists abroad. The partnership between translational of Health wants to scientists and co-located production and development “stimulate the development of new antibiotics, rapid diagnostics colleagues must therefore be fully analysed. Any and novel therapies” recommendations for the future must neither damage by the wealth creation potential of scientists at Porton nor “ensuring excellent science is developed and has a clear route for put at risk the public health protection capabilities that translation”. currently reside there. Critically, the ongoing discussions That is precisely what Porton does, and this emphasises must consult fully the expert staff on the ground, to get why the translational facilities must be supported in the an accurate reflection of their roles, whom they interact best possible way. with internationally and the ideas they have to catalyse Perhaps the strongest indicator of Porton’s potential Porton’s development. for a PPP is the proposed regional growth fund investment I fully understand the logic that leads some to believe of £8 million in a new science park. This will provide that it makes sense in principle to aim for a single much-needed space for emerging bioscience enterprises science hub—as I note the project has stealthily been in an industry that generated £1 billion for the UK last renamed—to create a single site of expertise for PHE. It year. Crucially, it will also create opportunities for is a neat concept on paper, but as I have stressed for the spin-out companies based on products conceived at past three years, Porton Down is a unique strategic Porton, which have previously moved away from the site asset for the UK, and there is little sense in duplicating due to lack of space. capability that exists elsewhere across government in a time of austerity. The need for new containment level 4 I do not have a rigid view of what the future should facilities at Porton could be reduced if DSTL’s similar look like, but it is important that Porton’s fate should facilities next door could be shared—something that I not be decided on the basis of any short-term capital know DSTL is willing to consider. receipts through the incentive of removing refurbishment liabilities or an overriding desire to consolidate Public My suggestion this evening, as I described in a slightly Health England’s estate. It is clear that there is no silver different way three years ago, is to look at a new model bullet solution involving relocation to Harlow or the of ownership, based on the principle that stronger straightforward commercialisation of the production partnerships are possible between the public and private and development facilities. It is critical that any decisions sectors without compromising important public health should be in the best interests of the preservation of requirements. Porton has become a globally recognised public health in this country as well as of the proven brand that generates £18 million of royalty revenues commercial potential of translational research scientists, every year through its high-quality research licences even if that necessitates a realignment of organisational and products. It generates five times more external boundaries within the agencies of Government. income than it receives in core funding from PHE and remains a pioneering example of the best public sector expertise generating growth for UK plc. The Government 10.57 pm should therefore consider ways to capitalise on this. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health I urge the Minister to examine the potential of a (Anna Soubry): I should like to congratulate my hon. public-private partnership, which would give scientists Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on securing at Porton the ability to leverage new facilities through this debate. I also thank him for helpfully providing me their royalty income stream, as they themselves have and my officials with advance details of his speech. suggested. Such a role would also enable Porton to That has been of great assistance to us, because it operate more strategically, providing a cost-effective enables us to provide answers to some of his questions way to protect the UK’s microbiological emergency and to address the many points that he has quite 1135 Public Health England (Porton 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Public Health England (Porton 1136 Down) Down) properly raised on behalf of the people who work at part of the programme on which my hon. Friend has Porton and of his constituents and others who are also been briefed, and this opportunity can be grasped interested in the future of the facility. I know that he is now. The other review is about the 15 to 20-year future an active supporter of the work of Public Health England for a wider range of services, currently not only at at Porton, and that he has worked tirelessly with Wiltshire Porton, but at Colindale and elsewhere. county council and others to create a science park there. My hon. Friend mentions the distance between sites. I will spend a few minutes outlining the work that The case for change that was submitted in 2011 focused Public Health England is doing on behalf of the on the additional benefits that can result from co-locating Government to secure high-quality facilities for public services on a single site. The position is not dangerous health. I shall then try to respond to the points that my now, but there are significant opportunities for new hon. Friend has quite properly raised. scientific ventures and collaborations from a new national The Government created Public Health England just centre. a few months ago, in April 2013, with the aim of My hon. Friend asks why PHE does not simply share creating a national expert body charged with protecting high-containment facilities with the Defence Science and improving the public’s health and reducing health and Technology Laboratory. We need to be clear that inequalities. The services provided at Porton are essential although PHE and DSTL will continue to collaborate to the work of PHE in protecting the nation’s health closely, public health needs dedicated high-containment and preventing disease. Porton provides some of the facilities to ensure that public health work can proceed most specialist and high-technology microbiology facilities in the event of the DSTL facilities being fully occupied. in the country. However, the main building at PHE This will provide resilience if DSTL’s facilities are closed Porton, as it is now known, was built 60 years ago, and for any reason. the Government are committed to replacing those ageing facilities with modern state-of-the-art buildings through In conclusion, the Government have asked PHE to the submission of a revised business case some time lead work on the creation of state-of-the-art facilities to next year. protect the public’s health and to prevent disease. There is a well-established programme in place, overseen by I should add that the idea of consolidating health the Department of Health and the Government’s Major protection facilities on a single site to make best use of Projects Authority. scarce skills from both Colindale and Porton is not new. What is new is the vision to develop a national centre It is really important to finish by stressing that Ministers with a much broader remit, reflecting the wider purpose have yet to make a final decision on how best to create of PHE to improve the public’s health and to reduce future facilities for national public health science. PHE health inequalities. I understand that senior staff from is on track to complete the business case for a ministerial PHE have met my hon. Friend about this work, as he decision by September 2014. described, and they have promised to meet him again I hope that I have answered all the points so properly and to engage with other interested bodies, including raised by my hon. Friend. If I have not answered any, he the county council can be quite sure that I will respond in the normal Let me address some of the points that my hon. manner by way of letter. My door is always open, and it Friend raised. The Government are committed to retaining would be a pleasure to meet him on any occasion to some public health facilities at Porton as part of the discuss this matter further and to provide any further planned science park. I know that the chief executive of assurances that I can to him and, perhaps most importantly, Public Health England wrote a letter of support for the to the staff at Porton, who we would all agree do an science park earlier this year at my hon. Friend’s request. outstanding job. I fully agree with my hon. Friend that it is vital to Question put and agreed to. maximise the commercial potential of the services at Porton—unfortunately, that probably has not been done for some time, and the Government are absolutely 11.3 pm committed to doing it. PHE is fully committed, too, as House adjourned.

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lower levels can find out more about the grand strategy Westminster Hall and the bigger defence picture. Largely, however, the purpose of the scheme is to find out precisely what is Wednesday 11 September 2013 happening on the ground. None of that would be possible were it not for the [MR CHARLES WALKER in the Chair] imagination, initiative and management over 25 years Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme of Sir Neil Thorne, ably supported by his excellent wife. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] The approbation around Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting the Chamber confirms that everyone this morning wants be now adjourned.—(Dr Murrison.) me to thank him extremely sincerely for all the magnificent 9.30 am work that he has done in setting up the scheme and making it work. It is completely out of order, Mr Walker, Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Instead of to call attention to anyone in any gallery attached to the the normal pleasantries of wishing you well in chairing Chamber, and I would not wish to incur your wrath by the debate, Mr Walker, may I express my particular doing so, but were there anyone in the Public Gallery thanks? Owing to the peculiarity of parliamentary who happened to have the name of Sir Neil Thorne, we procedure, I was told that I was chairing the debate this would be happy that he happened to be here and most morning, but it would have been difficult to be in the grateful for everything that he has done. It has been a Chair and making my speech at the same time. I am magnificent scheme for 25 years. therefore particularly grateful to you for taking my place at this early hour in the morning. I am also The scheme has operated at four different levels—perhaps grateful to many colleagues for turning up to discuss three in future—and 265 people in total have gone this extremely important subject. Indeed, I extend my through it. In the introductory course, people learn a thanks to Mr Speaker—I do not know whether he little about what the armed services are doing in general selected the subject for debate or it came about in terms. There is also a postgraduate scheme, the advanced another way—for making the debate possible. postgraduate scheme and the even more advanced It is often said that the first duty of Government is postgraduate scheme, as well as a number of other the defence of the realm, and that is absolutely true. schemes, all of which, I am glad to say—call me an The first duty of Parliament is to examine what the anorak—I have very much enjoyed doing. My interest Government are doing in defending the realm. Over 25 and involvement in defence have come about largely as years, the armed forces parliamentary scheme has played a result of the scheme, so it has been a superb way of a significant part in helping Members of Parliament learning about what happens on the ground. from all parties to examine what the Government are About a year or so ago, the Lord Speaker, Mr Speaker doing. I emphasise “from all parties”, because it is and the Secretary of State for Defence decided that it important for the Opposition to have the opportunity was time to do two things: to re-establish the scheme as to find out more about the armed forces through the a charitable trust; and to do so within Parliament. scheme. Frankly, however, Government Back Benchers Happily, we have been able to do that over the past year do not have easy access to the armed forces, so using the or so. Last night, in Committee Room 14, we relaunched scheme as a way of finding out what our people are the scheme under a new name, the armed forces doing on the ground and finding out a little more about parliamentary trust. It is to be run by nine trustees: two defence is an extraordinarily important thing for Back appointed by Mr Speaker, namely the hon. Member for Benchers of all colours to do. I have put myself carefully Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) and me; two from in a Cross-Bench position at the end of the Chamber the House of Lords, who I think will be Lord Wakeham this morning to illustrate that this is in no sense a party and Lord Rogan; two from the Ministry of Defence, political matter. Air Vice-Marshal David Murray and Sir Bill Jeffrey, the For 25 years, the armed forces parliamentary scheme last but one permanent secretary; and two from industry, has done a fantastic job in enabling Back Benchers—and, Helen Kennett of Rolls-Royce and Bob Keen of BAE indeed, on many occasions, Front Benchers—from both Systems. sides of the House to embed themselves with our armed I am delighted that Sir Neil Thorne has agreed to forces in the Army, Navy and Air Force, and to find out become the ninth trustee and that, in response to an what is happening on the ground. They are finding out invitation from Mr Speaker, he has undertaken to become not necessarily about strategic matters or ground defence, the life president of the scheme. We welcome Sir Neil’s but about how our boys and girls, as we often call the continuing involvement and interest. In all, that is a members of all three of our armed services, do their good group of people to set up a charitable trust—a work on the ground. charitable incorporated organisation, which is a kind of We are honoured to be joined in the Chamber by the mini-charity under the charity commissioners—which Conservative Chief Whip. Not so long ago, when he will be entirely within Parliament. Only last night, was briefly the shadow Defence Secretary, he joined us Mr Speaker told me that he has found accommodation in the armed forces parliamentary scheme. It is nice that in Parliament for our staff of one person, to whom I he has been able to find time to join us in the Chamber shall return. The scheme will be wholly accountable and this morning. transparent, with annual accounts, annual general meetings For 25 years, the scheme has enabled an enormous and the rest of it, as we must have in modern times. number of people—265, if my counting is correct—to find out what happens to airmen, and soldiers and Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): Having taken sailors of both sexes on the ground. There is a third part in the old scheme and expressed a number of level to the scheme in the Royal College of Defence concerns about its corporate governance, I am delighted Studies, where those who have graduated from the that the Minister and the Speakers have overhauled the 275WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 276WH

[Mr Douglas Carswell] and above board with minuted annual general meetings and so on. My hon. Friend can be reassured on that scheme. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the new trust point. is to be properly accountable? Will it allow pesky Back The scheme will continue the movement started by Benchers, such as me, to ask all sorts of pesky questions Sir Neil Thorne over 25 years ago. We believe that the without getting chucked out of it? Will the role of any ethos he established of embedding Members of Parliament corporate contributors be clearly defined and constrained? with the three armed services is right. Last week, I was happy to visit to RAF Brize Norton with other hon. Mr Gray: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for Members, but we wore suits, we were VIP visitors and his support. The answer to both his questions is yes, on we did not get together with people on the ground or one condition: that he commits to take part in the learn what they were doing. The whole ethos of the scheme. We would welcome his contribution—he will scheme is to be there as one of them and fully involved be the lowest of the low, the most junior private soldier as an ordinary individual with people of all ranks. that it is possible to imagine, and we will put him through an absolute beasting, but I am happy to give It is important to maintain that ethos and to do so in him that reassurance. He has been a mild critic over a similar way, with visits of up to 20 or 22 days. The the years, so it is useful and kind of him to come to the trustees are considering whether 15 days would be Chamber to offer his support this morning. slightly easier, but broadly speaking the visits will remain the experience that hon. Members have enjoyed over the My hon. Friend asked who would be paying for the past 25 years or so, and they will no doubt tell us about scheme, and it is worth expanding on that. Traditionally, it. I say “enjoyed” intentionally because the scheme is it has been paid for by the defence industry, and there not only educational and helpful to our defence industry have been four main sponsors. One of the things that I and to hon. Members in defence debates but good fun. have been doing over the summer is going round all the That is key. The visits are fantastic fun, and it is important defence companies, and I have now secured promises that that ethos continues. from at least 10 and possibly 15 of them—all the majors, such as Rolls-Royce, BAE Systems and Babcock, We are continuing the movement, as the military say, as well as others of a similar nature—each paying a rather than starting something brand new. The organisation small amount of funding, which will be sufficient to is wonderful, but it needs a bit of change and thanks to cover our anticipated costs. what Mr Speaker, the Lord Speaker and the Secretary of State for Defence have asked us to do, we are The reason why that is a better arrangement is because, continuing the movement under a new guise. The transition with 10 or 15 sponsors, we can say that none is achieving to the new scheme has been helped by the Minister, who anything. Indeed, my pitch to them has been to say, has handled negotiations with great care and tact, for “I would like some money from you, please.” They have which I am most grateful. He had a useful group of civil asked, “What do we get back?” and I have replied, “You servants behind him, particularly Mr Roy Brown and get absolutely nothing in return whatever. This is CSR— Ms Anna Platt in his private office, who were immensely corporate social responsibility—for the defence industry. helpful with the process. We should pay tribute to them, You get no lobbying, no access nor your name on and we should also pay tribute to Sir Neil’s private staff, writing paper, unless we choose to do so, but you get the who have been much involved over the years. It is great warm feeling, Mr Rolls-Royce”—for example—“ to thank them for all that they have done. of knowing that you have helped with the education of Members of Parliament.” All of them accepted that. We are close to establishing the new trust. As of yesterday, we appointed a chief executive or chief clerk, Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Major Johnny Longbottom, a Territorial Army officer (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the who has had similar roles in the Ministry of Defence. debate. Does he recognise that one of the benefits that He served for six months in Afghanistan and is well may come to the defence industry by helping the scheme qualified and well suited in every way to be the new is that Members of Parliament will be significantly chief clerk or chief executive—we will decide on the better informed about the industry and the issues faced title later. Mr Speaker has provided accommodation in by our armed forces day to day? Parliament; funding is on its way; our application to the Charity Commission to become a charitable incorporated organisation is in hand, and I hope that that will be Mr Gray: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good done reasonably swiftly.Most of the necessary practicalities point. There have hardly been any defence debates or to establish the scheme in its new guise are in hand, and oral questions over the past 25 years in which hon. I very much hope that when the House returns in Members have not stood up and said, “Thanks to the October the first course will be ready to go. armed forces parliamentary scheme, I know a little bit more about the armed forces. Therefore, the following At a meeting last night, there were many applicants question comes from my experience in the scheme.” My wanting to join the scheme. They can do so in any of the hon. Friend is absolutely right; the defence companies three services at a junior or senior level, or they can go do not want anything directly in return, but it is good to the Royal College of Defence Studies, although that for them to know that there is a cadre of people in course is full at the moment. We are ready to go as soon Parliament who understand defence, are interested in as the House returns in October, the first major event and sympathetic towards defence, and who have some being a two-day course at Shrivenham from 11 to kind of expertise when we consider broader defence 13 November. We should be in a good position to get matters in future. No lobbying is involved, but there are going swiftly. advantages for them in having a group of people who Other hon. Members want to take part in the debate, are more attuned to defence questions. That is how the so I will not detain the Chamber unduly, but it is worth sponsorship will work. Everything will be listed, declared reiterating that the scheme has done great work. During 277WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 278WH the post-war period, plenty of Members were ex-military thing that helps with that is the armed forces parliamentary and there was a strong military ethos in Parliament, but scheme, to which I pay tribute because it has done a lot 25 years ago, Sir Neil Thorne correctly identified that for people. In my experience, it provides an insight into that ethos had disappeared and that knowledge of the what people are really being asked to do and who must armed forces had declined significantly. He put that do the job from day to day. right by establishing the scheme, and the fact that we When one puts on desert boots, finds that they melt now have such a good understanding of the armed and are not fit for purpose, and discusses what should forces and defence in Parliament is largely due to its be available, one gets some understanding of the matter. introduction. When living in a tent for a few days with the boys and We hope that we are facing a time when, after girls, sharing the communal showers and other excitements Afghanistan, we will have fewer deployments and fewer such as dodging spiders and the real snakes, as well as soldiers, sailors and airmen on operations for many the two-legged ones, one begins to understand exactly years to come. Again, there is at least a risk that interest what pressures the armed forces experience as ordinary in and knowledge of our defence capability will decline individuals in one’s own community or another hon. in the next 20 years. I believe that the continuing armed Member’s constituency. They take on a burden and forces parliamentary scheme will play an important role provide a value for their community that people cannot in maintaining interest in the armed forces even when understand until they participate with them and get an we are not engaged in kinetic warfare around the world. idea of what it means to be in dislocated places and to We have as huge a role to play in the future as we had in suffer some of their day-to-day experiences. I thank not the past. just Sir Neil and those who have dealt with the scheme We must thank Sir Neil for the past 25 years. Thanks at a higher level, but those who have supported it to the initiative of the Secretary of State, Mr Speaker throughout. and the Lord Speaker, we are establishing the trust as a I now have friends in the military whom I would way forward so that in 25 years when we in this Chamber never have had before—I have had life experiences with will, sadly, no longer be here, there will be another them over the years—and I also know people in the debate in this same Chamber saying how well the scheme Ministry of Defence and civil servants. All those various has worked in the interim 25 years. I am most grateful people are not immediately seen—and we are a pain to to Sir Neil and to all who have been involved, and I look them. We are a burden. When we rock up to these forward very much to the great honour of chairing the things, we are not exactly helpful, because they have armed forces parliamentary trust in the years to come. enough to do anyway. However, they put themselves out to accommodate us, so that we can begin to understand some of their experiences. We are educated in the process 9.45 am in the proper sense. Mr Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): I make no apologies for the fact that the scheme is It is a pleasure, Mr Walker, to serve under your political, but it is not, in any shape or form, party chairmanship. Members of the Panel of Chairs do not political. It is said to be non-political, and in that sense often serve under one another’s chairmanship. I was not it is non-political, but at another level it is highly expecting to be called so early, but I want to echo some political, because it gives us a political education and of what has already been said, particularly about Sir Neil also helps others to understand the political process. Thorne, his wife Sheila and the dog—I have forgotten Sometimes when we go along to such things we have to its name, so I must apologise to Sir Neil. They have sing for our supper. All of a sudden, a major is giving us been a feature of my life for more than the last decade 200 troops, saying, “Go on, there they are. Tell them while I have been involved in the armed forces parliamentary why they are here. You have a go, because I have been scheme. trying to explain it to them—you have a go.” It is Becoming a Member of the House of Commons is a educative in that sense, but people also understand us, bizarre experience because it involves setting up a small because they can quiz us. We are a resource. If we business and accommodating the magical mystery tour participate, we have to make ourselves available as a that is the legislative process. We are given the key to a resource, because it is not a one-way street. We should locker and a sack of mail, and told to get on with it. We be not only drawing from the process but contributing wonder why we are here, what we are trying to to it, because that is what makes it worthwhile. do, and what our responsibilities are. We have obvious It is educative, and any education is of no value responsibilities to our constituents and, on a broader unless it is slightly subversive. The scheme is good, front, to the state as well, which is important. Reference therefore, because we experience people at different has been made to defence of the realm and that looms levels who say, “They are a pain and now, maybe they large in our thinking, especially for those who, like me, know a bit too much. They are going to places, finding were elected in June 2001 when people said we did not out things and coming back with”—what were described have a real job to do and everything was fine with earlier as—“pesky, awkward questions.” Some people devolution in Wales, so we could sit back and have a have a slightly ambivalent view of the scheme, but that long holiday.However, something happened that September is all about the friction that makes for the value of the that changed the world and defined it for the immediate process. It will be interesting to hear about other people’s future and probably the next 50 years. experiences. What we find is that the military themselves Telling people how they can help to resolve the problems, are only too happy to help. Others, who perhaps do not and committing them to armed conflict, has become a fully understand the scheme, think that we will be doing big issue that one must participate in. We can step back something that we will not be. It has been useful to find and decide to find out something about it if we do not that people from the Ministry are involved in the scheme, understand it and want to understand it better. The one and people from the staff of the House of Commons. It 279WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 280WH

[Mr Dai Havard] now commanding militaries in countries that are potentially, and actually, in conflict with one another. I now know is useful that people who are writing papers about some of the commanders of the business that is going defence can participate. The current Serjeant at Arms on. Knowing each other gives a different context to was a member of it. The scheme offers things not only trying to understand how one can incentivise a change. to Members of Parliament, and it seems to me that that If someone has an idea of how the Chinese think, and has been its value during its time. they are sitting next to a Chinese general on one side, a On this business about sponsorship, and all the rest Pakistani general on the other, a German and an awkward of it, over this period of time I have also become a Norwegian, and having a debate, it becomes very interesting. member of the Select Committee on Defence, so I We are able to have tea with people who normally, in bump up against this stuff all the time in different ways. another context, we would never get together. No one has ever asked me for anything in relation to the More generally, I would argue that investment in that scheme—ever. That includes people from the Ministry defence diplomacy is something we all ought to understand and from any of the sponsors that have been involved. and do more of. The armed forces parliamentary scheme Perhaps they think, “Well, we won’t ask him anyway”, gives us that, sometimes by accident. We participate but I have never been approached for anything. All I with the military, and they are in coalitions all the time. have seen is them give their support through the proper They are in the context of the places in which they administration—through Sir Neil and the scheme. I work. All of a sudden, we can be somewhere or another, have never experienced anything other than that. Equally, and someone announces, “There are some Chilean soldiers”, I am pleased that we are making all that more transparent and we have to deal with them. One thinks, “Chile? and more obvious, and that more people and more What do I know about Chile?” It is an education in that sponsors are getting involved. There is a huge benefit to respect, and, again, if someone goes through the scheme them, both in our ability to understand and in their in all of its different manifestations, it provides a breadth ability to get the advantage of having an educated of experience that could not be bought anywhere else. It electorate in the House of Commons, when it comes to is a life experience, but more importantly, it is an making decisions on defence matters in future. education in the ability to understand not only immediate Let me say something about the future. People will political questions but the context in which they operate. want to make all sorts of comments about their individual experiences. Having played rugby, I think of the old In future, there will be a debate about whether uniforms saying, “What goes on tour stays on tour.” There are should be worn. Perhaps others will raise that issue some things that people will want to know about, but I today. I think it is really important to wear them—I will not tell them, because they are particular experiences. made a point earlier about boots melting. It allows us to I say that because if we get involved with a body like the begin to understand what other people are doing, and military, stuff happens. With such experiences, we have we should not abandon that idea. Sometimes we should to be accommodating. mix in, because otherwise, people say, “Which one shall we shoot?” “The one without the uniform on”. That is We begin to understand things immediately. When I not terribly helpful, because it means we are not part of first started on the scheme, I went to the training college the group. People say, “What you on, sir?”, “What are and spent a week doing basic training. It was fantastic— you doing, sir?”, “Who’s he?”, “Is that the armed forces very, very interesting. I came away with a little card that pension scheme, sir?” I say, “I’m on the armed forces all soldiers were given at that time—I was doing it with parliamentary scheme —what are you on?”—they ask the Army. The card was about what they were trained to because I am ancient, I suppose. We can then have a do. It was about their loyalty and their sacrifice, about debate, because in a sense we are not different; we are them putting themselves in a particular position, and just another dimension of them. Therefore, we can therefore about how the Government should support discuss things with them in a different way. them. I have it in my wallet, but I am not allowed to use visual aids in the Chamber. We also begin to understand which way is up. It is When we came to discuss the covenant, it was interesting. interesting to watch Members of Parliament learn how We have been discussing it, in my experience, right the to iron—it is like basic training for some of them—how way through the scheme, and that discussion has taken to put a beret on and all the rest of it. That is good on a particular form. Out of such things, we begin to entertainment, but it is more than that, because we can have a better understanding of why we are discussing understand some of the things that we are giving people, codifying some things better, politically, than we were how they work, and what it is all about. It is also about doing in the first place. their ethos and what they invest in all that. We can That discussion is just one experience. There have begin to understand why that is important to them. been other, more exciting experiences, such as dropping I finish by saying that we are having a debate about into the Borneo jungle and being cooked a snake curry changing the mixture of regulars and reserves. One by Gurkhas who tried to sell it as chicken. I could talk thing that is interesting to me about the scheme is that about all sorts of little experiences such as that, but we would do 22 days before, but we are now talking what we get out of the scheme is an understanding that about 15 days. A decade ago, people would say, “You it is about people. It is about high politics, but it is also are just signing up like the regulars”. The scheme provides about people. They are what makes it work. another way of beginning to understand better what we I have been lucky enough that in the past year, I have are asking people to do—to dislocate themselves from been at the Royal College of Defence Studies. Sir Neil their community for short periods of time. For those would probably chide me because I took a bit too long who not done it before, it gives a limited insight into to do the course, but it is very interesting. I now have what that might mean and what we might be asking friends in various militaries across the world. Some are people to do. 281WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 282WH

The people who enter the scheme must make a Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair): Order. The winding-up commitment, but I would urge any Member of Parliament speeches will start at 20 minutes to 11. Colleagues can to join up and do it, because it is not just about defence. do the arithmetic on who is standing. It is about the whole context of the political process and the decision-making process. The ability to see the strategic view is what hon. Members will get from the 10.3 am scheme and what will be of value to them. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to be able to say a few words about this scheme. First, I 10 am congratulate the hon. Member for North Wiltshire Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): It is a pleasure to (Mr Gray) on bringing this matter to the House for serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I, too, consideration. I also congratulate him on the hard work thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire that he has obviously done in relation to the scheme (Mr Gray) for securing the debate. When I arrived in over many years when I was not in the House and on his this place in 2010, I was delighted to see that the armed chairmanship of the new scheme, as we move forward. forces parliamentary scheme was in place. Why? Just I became a Member of Parliament, like the hon. before I was elected, I attended the funeral in Redditch Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley), in May 2010, of a brave young soldier who had died in Afghanistan and one of the first things that I was introduced to was and who was the same age as my son. As I sat in the the armed forces parliamentary scheme. I remember church with hundreds of others, I realised how little I that there was an event—in the Jubilee Room, I think—and knew about the armed forces and how they operate. The I met Sir Neil, who informed me about the scheme. scheme has given me the opportunity to learn about the From the outset, I was keen to hear more, as in the past Army, meet the troops and travel the country learning I had served with the Ulster Defence Regiment for three about the Army. I have had the opportunity to join the years and in the Territorial Army Royal Artillery for Army at many locations, including Shrivenham, Devon, eleven and a half years as a part-time soldier. I really Windsor, Sandhurst and, indeed, Afghanistan. I have enjoyed my time in the Army. The scheme gave me the met soldiers at all levels, and one of the highlights was chance to see it from a different perspective—that of a training with the officers on the downs near Sandhurst. Member of Parliament—and to understand what the I slept in a derelict house and took part in exercises with soldiers wanted us to do for them. That was always them. I can tell you, Mr Walker, that there was not important. much sleep had there. The armed forces parliamentary scheme gave me, Obviously, going to Afghanistan was a massive experience along with other Members of Parliament, a chance to and one that I will remember for the rest of my life. join after passing a strict medical, taking part in a Landing in Camp Bastion was an experience in itself. I physical exercise and having an interview with Sir Neil certainly had no idea about the size of the camp and the and his good lady. I was privileged to be able to participate scale of the operation. It was fascinating to see what in the scheme. Like other hon. Members, I place on the happens there and to meet our troops, including some record my thanks to Sir Neil and Sheila for their courtesy from Redditch. and good manners, for the attention and support that Closer to home, 37 Signals has a base in Redditch, they give everyone on the scheme and, in particular, for which I visited in my early days on the scheme. One of the support that they have given to me. the conditions was that we had to turn up in our I was able to enrol in the scheme, which facilitated uniform. As I got out of the car, the look on the visits to Ministry of Defence locations to meet service officers’ faces was incredible. Where they thought that I personnel and to hear what soldiers wanted and what had got the uniform from, I had no idea, as they had their views were. It is always good to talk to a soldier. never heard of the scheme before. But we quickly moved The officers will always give us the picture as they see on and now we are all great friends. Last year, I joined it—I do not say that as a criticism of course—but the them on their away weekend in Staffordshire, taking soldiers will always tell us exactly what the position is. part in most of the exercises—I think that I missed the We are able to hear from the soldiers what their opinions six-mile run. I hope to join them again this year. are, and it is good to hear them, because then we have The scheme allows Members of Parliament to see at both sets of opinions and we can mould our thoughts first hand how the armed forces work. I have learned about how to represent soldiers in Parliament on the how to shoot guns. I have been in helicopters and information that we have. armoured trucks. Last year, I learnt how the Army I had an introduction to the defence academy at helped out at the Olympics. Those are just a few of my Shrivenham, where I was able to see the bigger picture. experiences, but I have very much enjoyed being part of We had an opportunity to see where the focus of attention the scheme, and I would like to pay tribute to Sir Neil would be in the future. Is it oil? Is it water? What are the Thorne for giving me that opportunity. mineral prospects for the world? We looked at Asia, I encourage all my colleagues to consider taking part Africa, the middle east, Alaska, Antarctica—all the big in the scheme. The knowledge that I have gained has issues. The hope was that we would then be better able been remarkable. I joined the scheme with no real to understand the role of the British forces and the experience, but now know a lot more. We owe the pressures that they are under. armed forces a great deal. They work tirelessly on our I had the chance to go to BATUK in Kenya—the behalf, and I for one will never forget the experience British Army Training Unit Kenya—as well as going to that I have had and hope to continue having in the Canada and Cyprus. That was good to do not because future. It is a great scheme. Long may it continue. we were getting out of the country and going on a visit, but because it gave us an opportunity to see what was Several hon. Members rose— happening in Kenya and the new training camp that the 283WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 284WH

[Jim Shannon] The armed forces parliamentary scheme is a tremendous scheme. It is being overtaken now by the armed forces British Army was creating and where the focus of parliamentary trust. It has given me a much better attention was in east Africa. There was the chance to understanding of the role of our service personnel on see—I had never seen this before—the tank formations the battlefield and at home, as they train and prepare and training in Canada and to see in Cyprus the for their next tour of duty. It was an opportunity to decompression of our soldiers coming back from meet some of the families and see the work that the Afghanistan. All those things give us a bigger flavour of welfare service does for them. We have SSAFA—the all aspects of life in the armed forces. I had a week with Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association. It the 1st Mercian at Catterick, and as the hon. Member has people strategically placed all around the world. for Redditch said, we were at Sandhurst. It does tremendous work. I know a wee bit about its The interesting thing was that no matter where I went work at home, but it was good to see its work on active in the world, I always met someone from Northern duty, where our soldiers were training. It is interesting Ireland who was either fighting a war or cleaning up to see the strains on families, and some of the soldiers afterwards. We have a tradition of being a soldiering we met in Canada were able to tell us what they would nation. It was wonderful to meet people from Northern like changed. Everything we did was an opportunity to Ireland wherever I went. I met a guy in Kenya—just learn something and reflect that back to Parliament—I sitting and having a cup of coffee—who was from felt that that was my role. It is clear that our troops do Newtownards. On the way to Afghanistan, I met a guy their best on the front line, and they must be assured who came from Comber. All these experiences and all that their country is doing the best job for their families the people we met helped to shape our feelings about at home. the armed forces. I then used the information that we Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): had got to ask questions in Parliament. My hon. Friend mentioned SSAFA personnel and other I had the chance, with the hon. Member for Colchester groups. Does he agree that the AFPS also offers hon. (Sir Bob Russell), to go to Afghanistan. He and I will Members the opportunity to mix with and talk to many never forget that. We were there for St Patrick’s day. It of those behind the scenes, about whom the general was the first dry St Patrick’s day that I had ever experienced public never or very seldom hear and to come back to in my life—in Afghanistan, there is no alcohol whatever. Parliament better informed about what they do? To see boys from the Irish Guards and Royal Irish Regiment consuming vast amounts of Coca-Cola and Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that wise mineral water and not what they really wanted was and truthful contribution. We met soldiers on many quite an experience. occasions, and I thanked every one I met for what they have done, because soldiers make a tremendous contribution The visit gave us a chance to see what it was like to be to the whole nation and to MPs. My desire is that the in Afghanistan and how the soldiers were performing scheme continues through the armed forces parliamentary and to get feedback from them about things there. trust, and the arguments for that have been well made. Whenever people are in Afghanistan, they are there for It is a wonderful chance to meet and greet, but more six to nine months. We can also ask them how it feels to importantly to understand our troops and their struggles be away from their families. Therefore, we got a bigger and to reflect on them, as we fight for them at parliamentary picture of the soldier’s life and the issues in relation to level. their families back home. We had a chance to visit the army and police training camp at Lashkar Gah, and we The soldiers I met were always appreciative of us as were able to ask questions in Westminster about when MPs. It is not that we are better than anyone else, but we the police training college would be completed. It was are Members of Parliament and they want to tell us to be funded with $6 million. Again, we were able to ask what they are thinking and they want us to reflect it. the Ministry of Defence that question because of our They need someone to represent their views, which visit to Afghanistan. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire, cannot always be understood merely by reading a report, who introduced the debate, made that point very clearly. and that is why, with the transformation of the armed forces parliamentary scheme to the armed forces Was the operation just about defeating the Taliban? parliamentary trust, I encourage others to support the When I went to Afghanistan, my idea was—I say this scheme and see for themselves what happens outside the quite honestly—“Kill all the Taliban. That’s what we doors of this place. have to do,” but then I realised that it was about more than that. It was not simply about killing the Taliban. It Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair): There are four was about persuading them that there was no danger in colleagues standing and 28 minutes to go. the allies and what they were doing. It was about winning hearts and minds. My perspective changed on 10.12 am what we should be trying to do. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) It was a privilege to meet soldiers, to hear their (Con): May I say what a pleasure and delight it is to concerns at first hand and to act on them on returning serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker? In a previous to Parliament. It was a bonus to be able to see exactly life, I served with you when we were both officers of the what our troops are going through and to get their Battersea Conservative party, so I am aware how much perspective on the strategic defence and security review direction I will end up being given should I get out that took place. It was a wonderful experience to hear of line. what the officers and the soldiers—the rank and file— I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for thought of the strategic defence and security review. We North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) for bringing the debate to could then feed that into the process when we came Westminster Hall and for all his activities and diplomacy back to Parliament. That was another opportunity. in trying to get a result. He has worked incredibly hard. 285WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 286WH

He is a prime candidate for the Foreign and Commonwealth I have spoken at length in the House about mental Office at some stage. I cannot pass by without also health and our armed services, and ensuring that there paying tribute to Sir Neil Thorne, whom I have known is support. It mentioned that in my maiden speech. I for about 30 or 35 years. I trained to be a Conservative serve on the Defence Reform Bill Committee; I am party agent in Wanstead and Woodford when he was finding it very interesting and hope that I can contribute the MP for Ilford, South, so I learnt an enormous to it. When I went to the Royal Marines training grounds amount about him when I was knocking on doors in Lympstone, I met a Royal Marine on Woodbury during the Greater London council elections in 1981. common who had served in Afghanistan. He said that He has always shown me an enormous amount of when he came back from deployment and had to unwind kindness and respect. I am incredibly grateful for that. somewhat, he found it very difficult. He spoke to his wife and she said, “Gosh, don’t talk to me about the day The debate is incredibly important and should be you’ve had. I’ve just had an awful day of answering seen as a tribute to Sir Neil’s hard work and the effort he thousands of e-mails.” He thought that he could not get has made. The AFPS has certainly helped me, as the far by talking about his experiences. He went to talk to MP for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, to understand his mates, and it was only then that he realised that he better the role the armed services play in our lives and could not talk to them either because they did not what we do. My constituency is a naval garrison city, understand the experience that he had been through. with not only the Royal Marines, but the Royal Navy. I He had to find his Royal Marine colleagues in Aylesbury, am delighted that I have had an opportunity to see how which is not exactly the most naval of places, to explain they operate first hand. his experiences to them. I am also a Navy brat. My father was a lieutenant- The scheme means that we understand not only what commander when he came out of the Navy in the 1950s, motivates people to work in our armed forces and do having helped get the king and the gold out of Norway that brave job, but what the families go through. We in 1940. My grandfather was the first lieutenant of the need to ensure that we give those families 110% support, naval barracks at Devonport in the 1920s and the which is why I welcome the Government’s community gunnery officer on HMS Valiant. My uncle commanded covenant initiative. We go abroad when take part in the the Royal Marine garrison at Stonehouse, before becoming AFPS. I went to Afghanistan with the hon. Member for the commandant-general. Although I came from a service Redditch (Karen Lumley), and one thing that I felt was family background, I had never served in the armed slightly missing was that we did not have one conversation services myself, so the experience of being a member of with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office about the the AFPS has been incredibly helpful to ensure that I politics of that part of Afghanistan. I encourage my am better informed. hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire, when he eventually takes over the AFPS, to promote greater Tributes should be paid, for the work done to ensure understanding about political situations and what the greater transparency in how the AFPS operates, and Foreign and Commonwealth Office is doing. At the end that does not take away from the great tribute that of the day, the things that we ask our armed services to Sir Neil deserves. He has given not only his time, but a do are merely tools in our foreign diplomacy. When significant amount of money to ensure the scheme’s diplomacy goes wrong and a state goes out of control, operation, and that must be commended in a very big we expect our armed forces to go in; but in the end, way indeed. The whole business of the AFPS is to there has to be a political and diplomatic solution. We ensure that we are better informed. We wear the kit and can most certainly develop that and ensure that the some of the uniform, so that we do not stick out like a Foreign and Commonwealth Office is much more involved. sore thumb. Thank you very much, Mr Walker, for allowing me to I have had a number of experiences through the witter on for a bit. I very much hope that equally good scheme. I went to Shrivenham, where I heard the now and constructive comments are made during the rest of late Richard Holmes make a speech about where he saw the debate. the armed forces and the international scene. I was on HMS Richmond with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Several hon. Members rose— Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), and we had a delightful time coming up from Malta into Menorca. The ships’ company Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair): I am going to call had been off the horn of Africa, dealing with piracy. We Sir Bob Russell next, and I am sure that he will be had meetings with not only the junior ratings, but the mindful of leaving a smidgen of time for the final two leading ratings, as well as the officers. I learnt how speakers to share. important it is in this day and age, with the way that international conflicts take place, that a lawyer is onboard. 10.20 am One of the serving officers onboard—the chief executive officer—was a lawyer and able to say to her commanding Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I appreciate that, officer, “I think you need to be very careful about how Mr Walker. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member you operate here, because you run the risk of finding for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) on securing the debate, yourself involved in something.” The ship’s company and I endorse the comments made by previous speakers. were absolutely petrified of being sent back to Somalia I would just like to put on record my involvement and the horn of Africa, because it would have mucked with the armed forces parliamentary scheme. I have up their leave arrangements. I am told that if there is participated in it twice, in 1999 and 2008-09, spending one thing a commanding officer totally dreads, it is 25 and 31 days respectively with the Army. In addition having to say, “Sorry, chaps, we’re not going back on to a series of high-level briefings with senior Ministry of Thursday. You have to go out and do a further week Defence officials and leading members of Her Majesty’s or so.” armed forces, I also took part in an exercise with the 287WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 288WH

[Sir Bob Russell] “I always say to the MPs on the scheme, ‘look, the Admirals, Generals and Air Marshals always have avenues they can follow armoured division in Poland, during which Sir Neil to make their points—it’s the soldiers, sailors and airmen who Thorne joined the scheme participants, and in a NATO haven’t got a line to the Secretary of State, that are relying on you to speak up for them’.” exercise in the snow and under canvas in Germany. I have also camped with Gurkhas in a remote area of Thanks to Sir Neil, the armed forces parliamentary Kenya, visited peacekeeping forces in Bosnia and troops scheme and the past 25 years, when we politicians speak at Camp Bastion in Afghanistan, yomped over the we hopefully know a bit more of what we are talking Brecon Beacons in Wales, and taken part in a night-time about than would otherwise be the case. I look forward exercise on Salisbury plain. to the new chapter with the trust. The participants in 1999 were the “famous five”: me, Several hon. Members rose— my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) and former Members of Parliament, Christopher Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair): Sir Bob, that was a Fraser, David Drew and Lorna Fitzsimons. In November very short speech. We now have 14 minutes left, and I 1999, I tabled early-day motion 82, which was signed by would be grateful if Ms Stuart shared them with the 44 Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis)—seven North Wiltshire. The motion read: minutes each. She does not have to, but I would be “That this House salutes the 10th Anniversary of the establishment grateful if she did. of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme; notes that a total of 90 honourable Members of both Houses have participated in the AFPS enabling them to speak with greater authority on matters 10.25 am relating to Her Majesty’s Armed Forces; appreciates the support given by the Armed Forces and various sponsors; and congratulates Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): Sir Neil Thorne for his initiative in starting the scheme and for his Given that the office of the hon. Member for New continued involvement with it.” Forest East (Dr Lewis) is on the same corridor as mine, As we have heard, more than 260 Members of both I think it would be wise for me to share the time with Houses have now taken part in the scheme. Today, after him, in the interest of long-term relationships. 25 years, we are witnessing a new chapter in the scheme It was an honour to be asked to be a trustee of the set up by Sir Neil, who rightly goes into the record new scheme, and I am happy to serve on the trust, books not only as the founder of the scheme but as the together with the hon. Member for North Wiltshire life president of the trust that takes over from it. As an (Mr Gray). There have been many tributes to Sir Neil aside, I want to say that Sir Neil also established the Thorne today, and as I was sitting here I thought that as police service parliamentary scheme. a former MP he will know that we all merely leave I am conscious of your comments, Mr Walker, but I footprints on the sand of life and the waves wash them feel that it would be appropriate to draw attention to an off. With some people, however, it takes longer before article that appeared last April in Defence Focus magazine, the prints are erased, and with Sir Neil I think it will which quotes Sir Neil as saying: take a pretty long time before what he has achieved so “When I entered the House there were very few Members of far, and what he will continue to achieve as life president Parliament with direct military experience and there are even of the scheme, is erased, and he should be proud of fewer today, which was having a serious effect on the quality of that. I do not think that the British are very good at our debates on defence issues.” saying, “I think I’ve done well,” but if anyone is allowed One of the problems is that very few of us have knowledge to say it, Sir Neil is. of what it is like being in the armed forces. Sir Neil went The scheme is significant, but I want to make another on to tell Defence Focus: point that has not come up so far. My first contact with “I know from when I was a member of the House of Commons the forces was a difficult one. I was the Health Minister Defence Committee that the military tend to treat you as if you who closed down the military hospitals, and I was not are at least a two-star officer”. terribly popular at the time. One of the arguments used The magazine graphically describes how, was, “You just don’t understand the forces,” which was “from the outset, the idea behind the scheme was to give politicians valid, but the reason for the closures was that the royal from all the main parties a chance to get access at an appropriate colleges were saying that it was no longer possible to level. Which means getting MPs into a uniform sweating alongside carry out the medical training in the way it needed to be soldiers, sailors or airmen.” done, and the NHS needed to make a contribution. The scheme has Ministry of Defence backing, which Some 14 years on, the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine is vital because the MOD provides the attachments. I is in my constituency, and we are in the reverse position want to place on record my appreciation of the liaison of the NHS having to learn from the medical services officers and all the people at the MOD who make the provided there. That interaction is important. scheme possible for Members of Parliament. I then served on the Select Committee on Foreign Sir Neil also told Defence Focus: Affairs for eight years, and on the Select Committee on “For a period after the Second World War, and with national Defence, but visits as part of the scheme have a very service lasting into the early 60s, it used to be that Parliament was different flavour from the ones we do for Select Committee full of people who knew military business first hand. But it isn’t or ministerial work—the relationships are different. like that now, and meanwhile the world is a tricky place, so AFPS They key thing about the scheme—I was with the has to be a good investment for national parliamentary knowledge Navy—is that it affords the enormous and rare luxury and decision-making”— of suddenly being able to spend four or five days a statement about the scheme that I endorse. Sir Neil thinking about only one subject. It also provides contact perceived another equally important role, which continues, with people from the captain to the cooks on board, for his initiative, as reported in Defence Focus: who really say what they think, and even though they 289WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 290WH are not our voters we feel that we had better listen to (Mr Havard) and for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), them and take note. It is the nature of that exchange referred to the sense of involvement in and participation that is so important. with the armed forces, and to the difference between I want to make brief reference to sponsorship and visits to the armed forces wearing their civilian suits as transparency. In the modern world, such a scheme must Committee members and wearing whatever variation of be absolutely transparent. Just like my fellow member military uniform they have been privileged to wear on of the Defence Committee, my hon. Friend the Member their scheme visits. I know that lawyers have been for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard), I do not taking a close look at that, but I assure hon. Members think anyone has ever tried to say, “This is what we that if we simply revert to being civilians visiting the think you should be doing. This is a kind of military, something very precious will be lost from the sponsorship”—that might, of course, be just be a reflection scheme. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] I am delighted of how insignificant we really are. This is a terrible that colleagues are endorsing that with various signals, admission: up until the point of the discussions on the and I hope that my hon. Friend will do so explicitly. scheme I had no idea that it was not just the Ministry of Defence that was picking the bill up. I had absolutely no Mr Gray: May I take the opportunity absolutely to idea that sponsorship was involved. I think that that reassure my hon. Friend that we most certainly will not was one of those rare occasions when ignorance is a return to civilian dress during those visits? There is a sign of success. debate about exactly what we wear, when and how we It was right and proper to put the scheme on this new wear it and the legalities, but he is absolutely right to say footing, and I am grateful to the Minister for helping to that appearing on visits in some form of dress appropriate set that up. As a trustee, I will have much more involvement, to the occasion is definitely what the future will hold. so I ought to leave most of the time left to my fellow MP, the hon. Member for New Forest East. Dr Lewis: I could not have expected or desired a more I thank Mr Speaker and the Lord Speaker, as well as reassuring comment. the parliamentary authorities, for realising that the I now look for a second reassuring comment. I will scheme is one like any other, and for accommodating not get it immediately, but I am looking to my old and facilitating it: the scheme is an extension of Front-Bench colleague of many years’ standing on the parliamentary activity in a different framework. The former shadow defence team—he is now, thank goodness, knowledge gained is fundamental. We should remember the Minister—to address what one might call the issue that Parliament came about because of the defence of of trust. The reason why the scheme has worked so well the realm and how taxes were raised for it. We have is that people have been given privileged access to forgotten that in many ways, but we should be brought members of the armed forces at every level. There has back to remembering our primary function. been, as it were, an unwritten understanding that that We should not just see the forces when they come privilege would not be abused. When one considers the back as injured soldiers—a real danger is that there is a very large numbers of colleagues of all parties who have public relationship with our armed forces only when been through the scheme, it is remarkable that there they become victims—but be proud of what they do, have been hardly any cases—in the low single figures—of understanding what they do and what a difficult job raised eyebrows about someone going on the scheme they have juggling politicians and the real world. The and immediately tabling a raft of hostile questions on scheme facilitates, and I firmly believe will continue to the Floor of the House. facilitate, that learning. That excellent outcome is very different from what might have been predicted at the start of the process. As 10.31 am something of an amateur military historian, I look forward to the day when I can go to the National Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Mr Walker, Archives at Kew and look for the file of correspondence as a master of parliamentary procedure, you will know that must exist relating to the period in which Sir Neil that when participating in a debate, one is not supposed originally approached the Ministry of Defence to propose to refer to the presence of anyone outside the confines that MPs have direct informal access to all ranks of the of the Chamber. However, I am sure that you will allow armed forces. me to say what a pleasure it is to know that Sir Neil and Sheila Thorne are present today to hear all the wonderful Sir Bob Russell: We all look forward to those archives tributes to them and, as I am sure they would be the being open. May I suggest to my hon. Friend that first to acknowledge, to hear the tributes that must be informed questions, as opposed to hostile ones, are very made to the civilian and uniformed staff of the Ministry much part and parcel of the experience of taking part of Defence over 25 years for their huge efforts in in the scheme? arranging the visits from the armed forces’ side. It is a real honour to make the last speech by a Back Dr Lewis: Exactly. That is precisely how people who Bencher in a debate about a scheme that has been an have engaged in the scheme have understood their unalloyed and phenomenal success for a quarter of a responsibilities, with very few exceptions. When one century. I am delighted that this is one of those debates considers that the final stage of the scheme is membership in which one can honestly feel that one agrees with of the Royal College of Defence Studies, that is quite every sentiment expressed so far. remarkable. It may not be common knowledge, but The scheme has many things to recommend it, and I those of us who are fortunate enough to be parliamentary will pick up one or two of them in the time available. members of the RCDS are taken on as full members Both the Labour members of the Defence Committee, and are considered to remain members for life. The the hon. Members for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney essence of the RCDS course is meeting people, learning 291WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 292WH

[Dr Julian Lewis] I congratulate the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) on securing the debate and on his appointment from them and establishing formal and informal contacts as chair of the armed forces parliamentary trust, which that will stand one in good stead in relation to one’s is a new scheme. We are talking about the closing of one understanding of defence developments at home and chapter and the opening of a new one. The first chapter abroad. lasted some 25 years and involved in excess of 250 To inject a slightly quizzical note into my speech, that participants, which is no mean feat. I hope that the is why I was a little concerned recently to read an article second one will last as long, if not longer. about the eminent military historian Sir Max Hastings I, like others, wish to congratulate Sir Neil Thorne being refused the sort of informal contact that for many and his good lady, Sheila, on all the work they have years he and many others have been allowed with senior done, with the support and able assistance of Ministry serving personnel in the MOD network. That runs of Defence staff. They should be recognised not just for counter to the spirit of the armed forces parliamentary their work, but for the fact that Sir Neil made a significant scheme, but I hope that it is simply a case of over-zealous personal financial contribution to the scheme. Many application of some rule against leaking things to the people would have walked away if they found that they media. had to dig their hand into their own pocket. He was Certainly, if we reach a situation in which people like determined to make the scheme work. The chink in the Sir Max Hastings—eminent historians and public armour, as he saw it, was that people entered the House commentators—cannot secure the degree of access that with very little knowledge on a whole host of things, but they used to have, or indeed if a similar bar is put on on defence in particular. hon. Members, all I can say is that Ministers should We have heard the experiences of others in the Chamber take a deep breath, look at what has happened with the this morning, and mine were similar. I do not come armed forces parliamentary scheme and realise that a from a military background. My father had done national tunnel vision approach to access by civilians, whether service, and that was the sum total of my experience. they are reporters or Members of Parliament, to the How could I genuinely engage in defence debates, or military is counter-productive. even begin to understand those serving our country? It has been made abundantly clear today, and on other The armed forces parliamentary scheme is a boon to occasions, that the defence of the realm is greatly important hon. Members with little knowledge of defence, as it is to the future of this nation. How could I really begin to to hon. Members when, as sometimes happens, their engage in what is undoubtedly one of the most important political party goes through a phase of anti-militarism. issues of the House? There was a period—thank goodness, long in the past— when the Labour party shifted in a unilateralist direction, When I first bumped into Sir Neil, he said, “So, will and I am sure that it was very valuable to those courageous you be joining?” I did, much to the regret, I suspect, of members of the Labour party who did not go in that the Royal Marines 42 Commando unit, which was direction to be able to recharge their intellectual batteries stuck with me for a period of time. I entered at a time by having access to such a scheme. It is important that when we were in the throes of going into the conflict in Members of Parliament who want to support the armed Iraq in 2002 and 2003 and when there was a reconfiguration forces have the intellectual ammunition, on a non-partisan of the scheme. I must admit that I enjoyed the scheme. basis, to speak with authority about them. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire talked about fun—I think people must have a different interpretation I conclude by pointing out that the scale of the of fun. In my last session, which took place during the scheme when it started was for two Members of Parliament night in February, I was on a rigid inflatable boat on to visit each of the three armed forces, with two more Plymouth sound. The rain was horizontal. I was losing visiting the Royal Marines, which is of course a subset— the will to live, but still had three days in front of me. It some would say, a superset—of the Royal Navy. was an experience I will never forget. Only last weekend, I took part in a charity abseil for Oliver Colvile: A very fine subset of the Royal Navy. Macmillan Cancer Support—it was the fourth such occasion. I had already learned what little expertise I Dr Lewis: Indeed, which was the reason for my quick had in abseiling through the armed forces parliamentary interjection of the word “superset”. scheme, when we abseiled in a quarry in Devon. For The scheme then moved to having five Members per those who have abseiled, they will be aware that when service, and it now has very large numbers. We measure they are at the top coming down, they have a brake-man. the effectiveness of a scheme or organisation by the When I was about to step over the edge, I looked back demand for it. There is a huge demand for this scheme, and a Glaswegian corporal said, “What is wrong now?” and we are very grateful that the supply will continue to I said, “My brake-man is a Conservative Member of meet the increased demand. Parliament.” His reply was, “Don’t you worry, wee man. If anything happens to you, he’s going nowhere.” 10.40 am Seriously now, we are talking about understanding—or at least beginning to understand—what people go through Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I when they serve our country. The scheme offers a genuine thank you, Mr Walker, for calling me to respond to this opportunity to mix with all ranks. It helps us to understand important debate on behalf of the Opposition Front-Bench what it means when people are doing a tour of duty and team. I hope that colleagues and the wider audience will what they are missing, because they are away from their excuse me croaking through my contribution this morning. family. That understanding is vital to people such as I am afraid that the ladies present in the Chamber will myself and many others who enter the House. We really not know what it is to suffer man flu. are not like the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob 293WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 294WH

Russell), who comes from a garrison town. He lives, understanding of defence and of how those who populate eats, sleeps and breathes the military aspect of life in his defence conduct their business. That is what the armed constituency. Far too many of us do not have such forces parliamentary scheme has been all about. experience, so the scheme has afforded us a real opportunity. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North This morning, the hon. Member for North Wiltshire Wiltshire (Mr Gray) first on securing the debate; secondly, threw out an invitation to the new scheme to the hon. on his hard work up to this point in securing the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell). I think I am safe in scheme’s future; and, thirdly and most importantly, on saying that there will be a big rush to join that queue his election as chairman of the armed forces parliamentary and share the experience. trust. I fear that he is something of a rarity in Parliament It is a sign of the times that we have had to change the today in having a really detailed understanding of the scheme. It is about accountability and openness, which armed forces, and I can think of no better person to is what the wider world expects. There are far too many take the scheme forward to its next stage. people out there looking in and saying, “What is this The scheme has interfaced with well in excess of scheme about?” I share the views of my hon. Friend the 200 parliamentarians during the past 25 years—people Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) who, who are then much better placed to contribute meaningfully like me, initially had no idea how the system was to debate in this place. My hon. Friend the Member for funded. As I have said, I have never at any point been New Forest East (Dr Lewis) made an interesting point approached by anyone who has sponsored the scheme about trust and openness. I repeat that the world was to say what it was they were looking for. Young guys different 25 years ago. Today we are much more open serving in the Royal Marines have, justifiably and rightly, and transparent in how we approach issues, and if there put me right about one or two things. The scheme was was any difficulty at all 25 years ago in exposing clear-cut and open, but, regrettably, it had to change parliamentarians to what sailors, soldiers and airmen because of the time in which we live. got up to, that is far less the case today. One of the I am delighted that the new scheme will have a hidden benefits of the scheme is that it allows that level comparable number of participants on an annual basis. of transparency, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right There will be that mix of single-day and multi-day to say that the number of instances of abuse of trust on sessions. I missed out on a five-day session between the scheme has been very small over time. Gibraltar and Cyprus. I will say nothing more, other Following the extraordinary vignettes that we have than that I was somewhat relieved that I did not manage heard, which were terribly colourful, I fear that my to make the session—I could not afford the time. There contribution to this debate will be rather more prosaic. was an incident that caused colleagues who did take Nevertheless, it is important to put on the record how part to laugh deeply on their return. I actually picked it we have come to this point. Having accepted the excellence up on the news in the evening and realised how lucky I of the scheme—I reiterate that it is excellent—we must was not to have been there. understand that we are in a different place today from We need to recognise, as Sir Neil did, that what is 25 years ago. Public expectations of bodies that interface required here in Parliament is a good and robust scheme with parliamentarians are different from what they were to educate people. Colleagues have shared their experiences in the 1980s. It is interesting—is it not?—that we should this morning, and they look on the scheme as something be discussing lobbying and transparency in this fortnight. they would like to recommend to others. I only hope It is appropriate that we should be making real inroads that the next 25 years, or however long the new trust into the next stages of this scheme during this short will last, prove every bit as successful. return to Parliament in September, because it is lobbying and transparency that would worry people—if not the public, then certainly the press—in relation to the scheme. 10.48 am I am mindful of the involvement of the right hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) in attempting to (Dr Andrew Murrison): It is a great pleasure, Mr Walker, review the position of all-party groups, and of the to serve under your serene and enlightened chairmanship. recommendations that he has made. Although the scheme As I am in the mood, let me express some further is not an all-party group, it is nevertheless an organisation sentiments—they are heartfelt—about the contribution that involves parliamentarians and commercial sponsors. to the scheme made by Sir Neil Thorne. Twenty-five Potentially, therefore, if the Ministry of Defence and years ago, we lived in a very different sort of world. We Parliament had not taken the gardening action that I still had in this place a large number of Members who think has been appropriate, the scheme might have been had served in the second world war or had pretty open to criticism, however ill-founded. All of us who contemporary experience of national service. Sir Neil have lived through the past five years or so in this place rightly identified that that would not be the case forever, know full well that if we do not take timely action, and that is where we are today. events will overtake us. What we have done has been Sir Neil designed a scheme, 25 years ago, that would absolutely necessary. ensure that Members of the House and others understood There are a number of people in Westminster Hall a little bit about service in the armed forces and how today who have been intimately involved with, or at defence works. That is important because, as the hon. least had cognisance of, what has been going on in Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) said, respect of the scheme since November 2010. That was although we get involved with a whole raft of things when the previous Secretary of State for Defence, my here, the most important thing that we do in Parliament—as right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset it has always been—is connected with the armed forces. (Dr Fox), and the previous Minister for the Armed That is absolutely central to what Parliament is all Forces, the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick about, and it is just as well that we have among us some Harvey), together with Mr Speaker, decided that the 295WH Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme 296WH

[Dr Andrew Murrison] I think that all of us have spoken to constituents and others who have experienced parliamentarians on the scheme needed to be moved on to the point that we have scheme and who have by and large come away from the been discussing today. Without detaining the gathering experience impressed with the interaction. That is reassuring. here today unduly, perhaps I can say that it has been a I am talking about extraordinary valuable citizens in long, complex and protracted experience, with a surprising the armed forces—they are citizens like no others. We level of complexity involved. As convenor of the process owe it to them to assure them that parliamentarians during the past 12 months or so, I am deeply grateful to who have a huge influence on their lives and careers all those who have been involved in it and contributed have their interests at heart, and certainly understand to it. It has involved some people of great seniority who what makes them tick. are well respected in this place and beyond, all of whom have brought their collective wisdom to the piece and I am sure that the scheme will be hugely popular. I contributed to what we have today. am given a lot of assurance in making that assertion by the fact that 35 parliamentarians have enlisted for what I think that it is true to say that there is one thing we might call the interim scheme, which is currently worse than being asked questions as a Defence Minister, operational. It is in no way a substitute for the previous and that is being asked questions that are ill-informed. scheme or indeed the scheme that will succeed it, but at Having taken part in defence debates since 2001, both least it allows Members of Parliament to have some sort in opposition and in government, I am always aware of of continuity of interaction with the armed forces. I am the massive contribution made by the armed forces delighted that in this interregnum we have been able to parliamentary scheme in ensuring that the debates we facilitate a programme of visits to military establishments, have in this place are properly informed. Those who so that we can continue that programme now that the have taken part in the scheme carry a deep and intrinsic trust—under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the sense that they know what they are talking about. This Member for North Wiltshire—is able to take up the morning, a number of hon. Members have talked about reins. the ethos of the scheme and about what really matters to them, which is trying to get under the skin of those In closing, I reiterate my thanks to Sir Neil Thorne, who populate defence in order to try to understand who has done the House, and our discourse and our what makes them tick. debate within it, a huge service over a protracted period Although I have never been a member of the scheme, of time. I have no doubt that the scheme—now under from my personal observation of it I know that it really its new guise as a charity, which had to be established to cuts both ways. First, it is extremely useful for the men give the public the assurances that they rightly expect of and women who serve in our armed forces to know that organisations of this sort—will be a massive success Members of Parliament are not a race apart and do under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member not—at least in the main—have horns growing from for North Wiltshire. We can look forward to the next 25 their head. When one gets past the inevitable question years with a great deal of confidence as the scheme, or joke about one’s expenses, including quips such as, which is now a trust, goes from strength to strength. “You’llbe filling out your expenses form, won’t you?”—isn’t that amusing?—one finds that the degree of empathy that Members of Parliament have with the men and Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair): I thank all colleagues women of the armed forces with whom they are billeted for the excellence of their speeches and the brevity of is of a high order. their interventions. 297WH 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 National Parks (Planning Policy) 298WH

National Parks (Planning Policy) within national parks. What impact does he think that has on economic development in Wales? Obviously, 30% is far larger than the proportion of national park 11 am areas in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con): I am grateful for the opportunity Simon Hart: I am grateful for that intervention. We to bring this matter to the attention of the House. can look at it in two ways. First, the inward investment Before I do so, I should mention for the Minister’s linked to national parks is hugely valuable in of our benefit that I am aware that national park planning is a adjoining constituencies, but—this is my penultimate devolved matter in Wales, so I will speak fairly generally point—at the moment there is no provision in the because I do not want to give him an excuse for not planning application system for officers to consider answering my questions. social and economic factors. Ultimately, landscape and ecological factors always take precedence, which is a I also put on record my appreciation and recognition problem. of the important role that national parks play in many of our communities. National parks bring in people, boost tourism and contribute to the life of local Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I communities. This debate is not about the relative merits thank my hon. Friend for giving way again. He raises of national parks but about national park planning, the important issue of accountability. All planning and the distinction is important because, whether or not authorities have a difficult job to do. National parks do it is perceived, local businesses and householders across not benefit from having a democratic process. Does he my part of Britain feel frustrated, and I know others agree that direct elections to national park authorities share a similar view. would help a great deal and have proved to be exceptionally successful in Scotland? I will divide my comments into four brief sections. First, the impact on businesses and jobs; secondly, Simon Hart: My hon. Friend second-guesses one of accountability and confusion within the planning system; my recommendations. Although elected councillors sit thirdly, the affordable housing subsidy, which of course on national park planning authorities, I think members is not specific or exclusive to national parks; and fourthly, of the public feel that those authorities are still somewhat the Environment Act 1995. I will address those sections out of the reach of the normal democratic grasp. That in that order. might be an ill-founded belief, but I think that national First, on the impact on business, today’s debate is parks are a law unto themselves and there is no way for fortuitous in some ways, because the Federation of people to penetrate the system. Small Businesses in Wales has produced and published a document entitled “Planning in National Parks.” An Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate my early chapter of that document lists 10 key findings, and hon. Friend on securing this debate. I disagree with him it is rather frustrating and depressing for people such as on one point. Northumberland national park is equally me that each of those findings is negative. I will highlight as good as, if not better than, Yellowstone or anything three of the findings. First, the document says: else the Americans have to offer, and it is consulting on “Concerns were raised about the perceived lack of accountability the £10 million Sill project. Northumberland proposes of the National Park Authorities’ planning committees and the to create the project with a number of local partners, insufficient scrutiny on planning officer decisions.” and it is specifically considering the economic benefits, Secondly, it says: which surely makes the point that some national parks “Interviewees did not believe that the National Park Authorities are considering the wider impact of what they are understood business and economic issues.” trying to do. Thirdly, it says: Simon Hart: I am grateful for the third intervention “There was a perception among interviewees that planning applications submitted in the rest of Wales”— on this point. My hon. Friend is right, but the 1995 Act, which I will quote in a minute, prescribes in law the outside national parks— requirement that where there is conflict between economic “were met with more helpful and constructive advice and a more and ecological factors, a national park planning authority positive approach to local economic development.” has to give precedence to the ecological consideration. I have some sympathy with national park planning Whether Northumberland national park is keeping to officers because, in a sense, they are charged only with the letter of the law is a matter for it, but a simple the implementation of policy, which is sometimes made solution would be to adjust the 1995 Act. some distance away from where they sit, but it is important to stress that national parks are a little bit more than Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): We appoint simply custodians of the landscape. We are not talking skilful people to serve on national park authorities. about Yellowstone national park; we are talking about Does my hon. Friend agree that we ought to give them quite densely populated areas. What makes the national the flexibility to strike a balance between benefits to the parks is the population and businesses that reside within economy, to biodiversity and to all other interests? them. That leads me conveniently to my second point, What is the point of appointing skilful people to those on accountability and confusion. positions if they are straitjacketed and prevented from taking sensible decisions? Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing Simon Hart: My hon. Friend puts his finger on the this debate. Fortunately, Wales is a very beautiful part point. One of the beauties of this debate is that the of the world. Some 30% of our country is contained solution is simple to deliver. The Minister does not have 299WH National Parks (Planning Policy)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 National Parks (Planning Policy) 300WH

[Simon Hart] Simon Hart: It is almost worse than that, because the arrangements favour those who can afford planning to have an argument with the Treasury; it can be done. consultants and who have the patience, energy and There is an Act of Parliament that needs a simple, money to unpick a system that, as we will see in a one-line amendment to free up the expertise to which minute, seems almost to have been written by people my hon. Friend refers and to reassure businesses and who never learned English—not in the same place I individual householders that national parks can consider learned it, at any rate. The planning system should be a wider range of factors than is sometimes the case. simple, not complicated or expensive, at the point of I will press on, because I have two further points to use. make on accountability and confusion, which the FSB There is a perception—I believe it is based on the Wales has highlighted. As my hon. Friend the Member truth—that the affordable housing subsidy, which is for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) said, not unique to national parks, raises almost no money. although national parks might argue that they are In 12 months in my area, it raised eighty thousand quid, democratic bodies because of the presence of elected which is not enough to build a garage, let alone to meet councillors, there is a feeling that the planning system is an affordable housing target. The subsidy is stalling impenetrable and at one remove from the reach that a development and putting developers off undertaking local authority planning department may provide. The valuable work, which is having an impact on jobs in the FSB report reflects the absolute conviction that the building trade in the areas affected. Worst of all, the planning system is slow, confusing and therefore expensive, subsidy is causing the affordable housing project to dry and that the system is only there for the well advised or up, so affordable housing targets are being missed by wealthy. miles in many national parks. This is one of those rare polices that fails every test it is set. Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) I wrote to the Minister about the affordable housing (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this subsidy, and I hope he will forgive me for reminding debate. I draw his attention to the circumstances in New him of his reply of 3 July 2013, which I shall quote for Forest national park, which crosses counties and several my own personal amusement: local authority boundaries. Particularly on the periphery “Where there is a disagreement about the viable level of affordable of the park, there is exactly the confusion that he housing contributions, applicants have a right to appeal. If a section 106 agreement has not yet been signed, the applicant may identifies. Local businesses and residents are not quite appeal against non-determination of the planning application. If sure whether they should apply to the local authority or a section 106 agreement has been signed, applicants may apply for to the national park for planning permission. We have a review of the affordable housing element and, if necessary, to be particularly aware of the vulnerability and, appeal. This review must be on the grounds of viability only and of course, planning pressures just outside the edges of evidence will be required to support the case.” national parks. I hope the Minister will forgive me, but that is enough to suck the life out of almost any sane person. If that is Simon Hart: My hon. Friend will not be surprised to the obstacle people are set when making a perfectly hear that there is a simple solution to that, too. I suspect reasonable challenge to the level of affordable housing the solution might be indigestible for the Minister, contributions, it is no wonder people lose the will to because I can see no real justification for two planning live. authorities operating in the same area. It is perfectly Guy Opperman: Many of us applaud the Minister’s possible for one planning authority to operate a standard Herculean efforts to simplify the planning system outwith system and an enhanced system for an area that happens the national parks. Would it not be appropriate to call to fall within a national park. That would save millions for such a simplification in this case, so that all our of pounds, and it would give the clarity that her constituents constituents can utilise the planning system? currently lack. The system has demonstrably worked in the past. Simon Hart: I agree with my hon. Friend. Of course, On the subject of localism, which I suppose is the the easiest way to make a start on that is to scrap the word for which I am grasping, if my hon. Friend the affordable housing subsidy altogether, because it is failing Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) were here he would to achieve anything it was originally set up to do. It has be on his feet by now saying, “Actually, it does seem odd a perfectly worthy objective, but at the moment it is that decisions can be so varied.” Decisions can vary having the opposite effect from the one it was designed from test drilling for shale gas to housing developments. to achieve. Instead of such decisions being taken in the community I want to finish on the Environment Act 1995—not, by the community for the community, in many cases perhaps, an Act that is uppermost in all our minds, but I they are being taken by inspectors about whom none of shall, none the less, quote from it. National parks have us have any knowledge, and who certainly have not two designated purposes: to foster the economic and been elected by anyone in the vicinity in which they are social well-being of local communities and to conserve handing down their judgment. That gives councils, and and enhance the park’s natural beauty, wildlife and indeed central Government, a bad name. cultural heritage. So far, so good. However, where there is a conflict—we touched on Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I thank my hon. this in an earlier intervention—the Act states that greater Friend for giving way in what is an important debate. weight should be attached to the conservation purpose: Does he agree that the confusion over planning by “In exercising or performing any functions in relation to, or so appeal or by inspector undermines people’s confidence as to affect, land in a National Park, any relevant authority shall in the system? have regard to the purposes specified in subsection (1) of section 301WH National Parks (Planning Policy)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 National Parks (Planning Policy) 302WH five of this Act and, if it appears that there is a conflict between the debate. He has talked to me about this subject on a those purposes, shall attach greater weight to the purpose of number of occasions, as has my hon. Friend the Member conserving and enhancing the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), and I am delighted that we heritage of the area comprised in the National Park”— have a chance to explore some of the ideas they and that was possibly written by the person who wrote the others have proposed. letter I referred to earlier. To the rest of us, those words Neither you nor I, Mr Walker, are fortunate enough mean that, if there is a conflict—there will, almost to have national parks in our constituencies—we would inevitably, with every application anybody makes, be an be blessed if we did. It is important to say that national environmental and economic conflict—national park parks are true jewels in the crown of the English and officers are bound by the 1995 Act to err in favour of Welsh landscapes, as all hon. Members will agree. They the conservation element. Even if the conservation downside are some of the most beautiful parts of the country, and is tiny, and the economic upside is huge, officers are it is right that we accord them a different status from bound by the letter of the Act to take decisions that other beautiful landscapes and approach development could, in some cases, be bad for the economic and social issues slightly differently. well-being of the communities they are there to serve, although I do not, by the way, blame officers for interpreting That is why the national planning policy framework, this part of the Act in the way they do. However, which made substantial changes to many planning policies economic considerations are crucial; they are definitely and reduced the amount of planning policy dramatically, crucial in my national park and, I suspect, in everybody nevertheless includes strong protections for national else’s too. At the moment, however, they are not getting parks. The framework stresses that valued landscapes the proper airing they deserve. should be protected and enhanced and that great weight should be given to conserving landscape and scenic That leaves the Minister with three solutions to chew beauty in national parks. It also says that planning over. First, he could scrap the affordable housing subsidy permission should be refused for major developments altogether—I think he will probably just let that go in these designated areas, except in exceptional through to the wicketkeeper—or he could at least make circumstances and where it can be demonstrated that a distinction between rural and urban developments. the proposals are in the public interest. The affordable housing policy tends to favour urban developments and to put rural ones at risk, and he It is important to start by saying that everyone who is could explore that. here for the debate considers national parks something Secondly, the Minister should merge the national to be tremendously proud of, which we all want to park and local authority planning functions, thereby protect. We all understand that what makes national saving a vast amount of public money and applying parks work as economic and social communities is greater consistency to the planning process, which ratepayers often their beauty. The beauty of the national park is will appreciate. If that is not possible, he should make the business of the national park and of the communities provision for national park decisions, taken by an unelected within it. Even the people who want to develop activity body, to be called in and reviewed by the local authority within national parks recognise that the chief source of planning body, which is, of course, democratically electable. their livelihood is the parks themselves and the beauty That should be a free service. If somebody puts in an of their landscapes. application that gets a perverse response, there should It is important, therefore, to protect national parks; be a localised system of appeal to support the area’s but that does not mean, nor does anything in the ratepayers. I can see no obstacle to that suggestion. national planning policy framework imply, that there Finally, the Minister could amend the 1995 Act should not be economic and social development, and to give economic and social criteria the same weight growth, in national parks. Some hon. Members may as it currently gives environmental criteria. That have heard or read that I got into a little hot water at the recommendation is simple, cheap, deliverable, practical annual general meeting of my old friends at the Campaign and logical, so it will probably never happen, but, none to Protect Rural England, when I talked about the the less, I put it to the Minister that he could consider danger of making rural communities into museum pieces, and perhaps discuss it, although I realise he cannot not so much protected as embalmed. That applies to make up policy in Westminster Hall. many communities within national parks; they will retain their life and appeal only if they are allowed to I hope my comments have been fair to national park change and develop, and if people can get jobs and set planning officers, who have a devil of a task in trying to up businesses. That is a necessary underpinning to satisfy their various customers. However, I also hope I national parks not just as wildernesses, as my hon. have alerted the House to the fact that all is not well in Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South the national park planning system, and there are great Pembrokeshire pointed out—not like Yosemite—but frustrations. People are trying to do their best as part of as living, breathing sets of communities. There are our economic regeneration and recovery, but, sadly, 300,000 people living in our national parks, and the they see national parks as an obstacle to that progress, combined turnover of all those parks combined is more rather than an asset. I hope the Minister can give us than £10 billion. They are hives of activity, industry and some encouragement in that regard. economic creativity, which we must support. My hon. Friend has therefore made some observations 11.18 am and suggestions about how better to reconcile the goal The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for of protecting the landscape of national parks with that Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): It is a of supporting sensible, sustainable development within pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. them. His fundamental complaint, perhaps, is that because I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen national park planning authorities are not democratically West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing accountable to local people—because they are not elected— 303WH National Parks (Planning Policy)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 National Parks (Planning Policy) 304WH

[Nick Boles] affordable housing makes the development unaffordable—if it is something that will never make them any money—that they are somehow less able to achieve the balance that is a reason to challenge the subsidy. Putting too great a local people want. Often those local people have moved burden on a development in the form of the various to the park because they love the landscapes, so they are contributions that are asked for, with the result that no not indifferent to them, but nevertheless they want one will go ahead with it, is shooting oneself in the foot balance between sensible development and protection and means there is a need to look at the issue again, and of the landscape. that is a basis on which to challenge such subsidies. There is some good news. Things may not be as bleak That is what viability means; it is a term designed to as my hon. Friend suggests. First, as he will be aware, obfuscate, but it really means that if the requirements local authorities and parish councils can nominate people mean the development will not happen, those involved to the boards of national parks, so there is a link with should look at the matter again. There is much in law, in the local democratically elected authorities. Secondly, the national planning policy framework and in more and probably more importantly—I respect the view that recent measures to give a basis for challenging any such nominations are a pretty shoddy form of representation— arrangements that will drive development out. 41 communities within national parks are currently Perhaps I may, in closing, issue an invitation to my working on neighbourhood plans, the new possibility hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and that we created in the Localism Act 2011 to enable a South Pembrokeshire and to the other hon. Members community to draw up a plan for its own development. who have spoken in the debate—and to my hon. Friend That is a profoundly democratic, grass-roots, accountable the Member for Chichester, who wanted to be here but initiative, and it is great news that so many communities is chairing the Treasury Select Committee. Could we in national parks have embraced it. Perhaps, however, it have a conversation with Members of Parliament and reveals the very frustration that my hon. Friend talked other representatives of all national parks—not just about—the fact that people do not currently feel able to those represented in today’s debate—about three issues? express themselves through national park planning policy One of those issues would be the balance between and the decisions that are made. growth, economic and social development and the I have heard my hon. Friend’s point that localism, protection of the landscape, and whether current legislation which the Government passionately believe in, and properly captures what we are trying to achieve and which after a long gestation and difficult birth is now what communities in national parks want. Another taking root in communities throughout the country, would be whether the current arrangements for national may not be as fully expressed in national parks as it parks planning policy fully reflect the desire for a more might be, and that we should perhaps consider ways to localist planning policy. Also, perhaps we might explore help national parks to reflect that policy more fully. whether, through some of the methods suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and My hon. Friend also talked about the affordable South Pembrokeshire and other hon. Members, decisions housing subsidy, which I know relates to his national could be made more accountable, transparent and park. I remind the House that, sadly, although I of responsive to local conditions. That would be a constructive course have imperial ambitions, I am not the Planning step. Minister for Wales. I am but the Planning Minister for England, and would be very nervous—especially when I make no promises about what changes the Government the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr might be inclined to support, and when, if at all, they (Jonathan Edwards) is present in the Chamber—about might be willing to act; but I will approach the matter trespassing on the sovereign powers of the Welsh Planning with an open mind and ask my officials to work up Minister. some of the proposals. I should like to have a conversation with all the people who represent national parks, and I entirely accept the reproof for the impenetrability of with the national park authorities, to reach a better the language in my letter to my hon. Friend the Member understanding of what we might do so that national for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. I myself parks remain the proudest jewels in the crown of the often find such letters quite hard to understand, and English and Welsh landscape, while also being living perhaps that is the point—perhaps that is sometimes communities that grow, develop and thrive. intended. However, in layman’s language the paragraph that he read out means that if the cost of the subsidy 11.28 am that developers are being asked to provide towards Sitting suspended. 305WH 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 306WH

Human Rights (Commonwealth) Women’s rights vary hugely across the Commonwealth. Although I am well aware that the topic merits a debate in its own right, in the limited time available I will draw [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] attention to a few key areas of concern. The Commonwealth charter states that the education 2.30 pm of girls is an essential component of human development. The Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafzai certainly Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): It is a pleasure agrees. Malala’s determination to defend girls’ right to to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Today is education is one of the most inspiring stories of our an opportunity to address candidly some of the human modern age. Despite Malala exposing some of the rights abuses happening in the Commonwealth. Today dangers for girls who are trying to access education, is also an occasion to review the progress that has come however, there are still great barriers. In Cameroon an to pass due to the combined efforts of the Commonwealth estimated 38% of girls are currently missing from secondary countries working collaboratively. education, which is simply unacceptable. Women’s education Commonwealth nations have been successful in obtaining is important not only for empowering the individual, change. All 54 countries have created a document detailing but for the country’s development. It is right that that is our shared values, and it is the first such document in recognised in the Commonwealth charter. The our 64-year history. The Commonwealth charter sets Commonwealth comprises not only some of the most out strong, clear values, promotes human rights and developed nations, but some of the least developed. commits all nations to protecting their citizens from Creating effective education for young women is imperative discrimination. for change for the better. I had the pleasure last week to be part of the UK Child marriage is a harmful practice that constitutes delegation to the 59th Commonwealth Parliamentary a violation of the most basic and fundamental rights of Association conference, at which my hon. Friend the young women. There are provisions in the Commonwealth Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) led an charter for investing and promoting young people’s informative debate on human rights. Although the debate development. Being a child bride causes appalling harm enabled us to celebrate our achievements in that field, it to a girl’s prospects for education and, indeed, to her also sharply highlighted areas of grave concern, which I health. Only this Monday, we heard of a girl of eight will discuss today. dying from internal sexual injuries after her marriage to I will focus on the treatment, education and a 40-year-old man in Yemen. Unfortunately, that horror representation of women, the death penalty and the is widespread and prevalent across the world, as at least persecution of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and 14 million girls—more than half of whom live in the intersexed people. I will call for David Cameron and Commonwealth—marry under the age of 18 every year. other senior Ministers to join the Canadian Prime There is a clear need to legislate to put an end to child Minister in refraining from attending the Commonwealth marriage. We need to put an end to the practice, so that Heads of Government meeting, owing to the horrific every girl is free to enjoy her childhood. All leaders of and continual human rights abuses in Sri Lanka. Commonwealth nations must collectively support steps taken at the United Nations to eradicate child, early Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I congratulate and forced marriage. the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. She is The Commonwealth charter recognises the importance absolutely right to call on Ministers to refrain from of women’s rights: attending CHOGM. Will she confirm that one of the reasons why Ministers should do so is that the Foreign “We recognise that gender equality and women’s empowerment are essential components of human development and basic human and Commonwealth Office’s advice on the Sri Lankan rights.” Government’s human rights record is that Sri Lanka is one of 27 countries about which the FCO has concerns? Throughout the Commonwealth, however, women are How can the Government condone those concerns by in need of a voice. To make the necessary changes, we attending a conference, when they could use the opportunity need better representation of women in our Governments. to make it clear that they do not countenance the That change would ensure the rights of women can no Sri Lankan Government’s behaviour? longer be ignored. Representation is key to creating positive changes to all the current issues that face women Sarah Champion: I am extremely grateful for that across the Commonwealth. intervention, which echoes my thoughts. I will address In the Chamber of Deputies of the Rwandan Parliament, those questions in more detail later, and I thank the 56% of representatives are women; I am ashamed to right hon. Gentleman for sharing them. admit that only 23% of MPs in the House of Commons The Commonwealth charter is an exciting development are women, placing us 65th in the Inter-Parliamentary that allows the Commonwealth to shape itself as a Union. We clearly have a lot to learn about women’s compelling force for good. The charter commits all representation. nations to the universal declaration of human rights The Commonwealth charter commits Commonwealth and opposes all forms of discrimination nations to the universal declaration of human rights, “whether rooted in gender, race, colour, creed, political belief or and article 3 enshrines the right to life. The death other grounds.” penalty fundamentally undermines that right. Worldwide, The Commonwealth charter states that those rights are great progress has been made on abolishing the death universal, indivisible, interdependent and interrelated, penalty. However, Commonwealth countries including and that they cannot be implemented selectively. I will the Bahamas, Barbados, Dominica, Guyana, Grenada, point out where we can improve our practices to ensure Jamaica, St Lucia, Trinidad and Tobago, Swaziland, that those clear, explicit definitions are upheld. Malawi, Kenya, Ghana, Cameroon and the Maldives 307WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 308WH

[Sarah Champion] It struck me forcefully when visiting the Apartheid museum in Johannesburg last week that many of the still support the death penalty. Thirty-six Commonwealth battles for racial equality had been won. It should be countries have the death penalty. Although I acknowledge celebrated that apartheid is over, but segregation between that many of those countries have expressed a commitment homosexuals and heterosexuals continues in other parts in legislation not to carry out executions and are abolitionist of Africa. Many terrible cases from across the in practice, death sentences are still regularly given, Commonwealth illustrate the appalling way that the even if they are not fulfilled. LGBTI community and LGBTI activists have been treated. In Cameroon, Alice Nkom and Michel Togue, In August 2012, nine people were executed in Gambia, who are defence lawyers for LGBTI people, have received with President Jammeh calling for all death sentences to telephone calls and text messages on a daily basis from be carried out “to the letter” by mid-September. Those anonymous people who threaten them and their families executions were in sharp contrast to the trend in west with death. In South Africa, 24-year-old Noxolo Nogwaza Africa towards ending the use of the death penalty. was brutally murdered in KwaThema township. An Amnesty International, along with 66 other human active member of the Ekurhuleni Pride Organising rights organisations and west African civil society groups, Committee, she was raped, repeatedly stabbed and beaten condemned the executions in a public statement released to death. The police responsible for the investigation in September 2012. into her murder have so far made no progress and no There has been a recent resumption of executions in suspects have been arrested. Nigeria, where there had not been an execution since 2006. Four men were hanged in June. Papua New Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): My hon. Friend Guinea recently passed legislation that expands the is making a powerful speech so far. Does she agree that crimes for which the death penalty could be used, that example shows that we must do a lot more than signalling a return to its use, even though no executions simply change the laws? South Africa has a rainbow have taken place since 1952. constitution that is very much against discrimination We must also recognise that individuals continue to based on sexuality, but the problems that she highlights be sentenced to death, or executed, for crimes not still exist on the ground. involving intentional killing. Therefore, the punishment does not meet the threshold of “the most serious crimes”, Sarah Champion: The fundamental problem is that, as prescribed by article 6 of the international covenant although equality is embedded within the Commonwealth on civil and political rights, to which all Commonwealth charter, LGBTI rights are not mentioned explicitly, so countries are committed by our charter. For example, these grey areas are exploited. people are condemned to death for blasphemy in Pakistan, Last year, armed police raided a human rights workshop for forms of aggravated robbery in Kenya and Zambia attended by LGBTI activists in Kampala, Uganda, and for drug-related offences in Malaysia and Singapore. arresting five staff of the East and Horn of Africa That is simply not acceptable under current international Human Rights Defenders Project and 12 other participants. law. The death penalty must be repealed in all That happened in the context of the Ugandan Parliament 36 Commonwealth countries. seeking to pass an anti-homosexuality Bill, which could The persistent persecution of the LGBTI community include punishing homosexuality with the death penalty. in the Commonwealth undermines the entire point of The Bill would create legal provisions to persecute and being free from discrimination. The Commonwealth punish people just for being LGBTI, which directly charter does not explicitly mention the protection of contradicts all international human rights legislation LGBTI people. I understand why that compromise and should be condemned by the international community. position was taken, but I believe it is a grave mistake, I am aware that Uganda claims that criminalising as 41 Commonwealth countries currently criminalise homosexuality is partly in the interest of public health. homosexuality. Those laws are often a historical relic of In reality, however, it further stigmatises and marginalises British colonial rule that continues to stigmatise and groups, making education about effective forms of sexually marginalise the LGBTI community across the transmitted disease control considerably more difficult. Commonwealth. HIV control is incredibly important as it is an enormous problem within the Commonwealth.

Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): Co-op): My hon. Friend is making a strong and wide- Would my hon. Friend like to acknowledge the work of ranging speech. I want to associate myself in particular the David Cairns Foundation? Following the death of with her comments on LGBT rights in Commonwealth our friend David, it has raised funds to open clinics in countries. Will she join me in commending the work of Uganda to help with HIV awareness and care. the Kaleidoscope Trust, the president of which is Mr Speaker and which enjoys support from members of all Sarah Champion: I thank my hon. Friend for raising parties across the House? It works with LGBT activists the David Cairns Foundation, which does superb work, in many Commonwealth and non-Commonwealth and I wish all power to it. countries to fight against the type of discrimination that she describes. Commonwealth countries contain more than 60% of people living with HIV globally, despite representing only some 30% of the world’s population. The importance Sarah Champion: I absolutely support the work of of HIV control is backed by the eminent persons group— the Kaleidoscope Trust, but a vast amount of work a group of 10 leading figures from around the unfortunately remains for us to do. Commonwealth, chaired by the former Prime Minister 309WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 310WH of Malaysia. In 2009, the EPG was commissioned by Rajapaksa. I want our Prime Minister to show his Commonwealth Heads of Government to examine key commitment as an international citizen and as a serious areas of reform for the Commonwealth. It recommended defender of human rights by joining the Canadian decriminalising homosexuality. That recommendation Prime Minister in his boycott of the meeting. was made specifically in the interests of non-discrimination In conclusion, the Commonwealth charter clearly and outreach to educate LGBTI communities about intends to defend all people in the Commonwealth. I HIV transmission. hope that by the time the Commonwealth games come The Commonwealth charter needs to name LGBTI to Glasgow in summer 2014 dramatic improvements as one of the categories of potential discrimination. It can be seen across the Commonwealth for the good of needs to call for homosexuality to be legalised across its people. To that end, I call on my fellow parliamentarians the Commonwealth to ensure that that persecution across the Commonwealth to ensure the full implementation stops. In the interest of not sounding too negative, I of the Commonwealth charter. I call on them to invest would like to congratulate the Commonwealth countries in and encourage the development of women’s rights where it is legal to be LGBTI, including Australia, the and to ensure women’s representation and education. I Bahamas, Canada, Cyprus, India, Malta, Mozambique, call on them to end the practice of child marriage. I call New Zealand, Rwanda, South Africa and the UK. on them to decriminalise homosexuality to ensure the Finally, I want to talk about Sri Lanka. The horrific health and safety of our LGBTI communities. I call for civil war that waged for 26 years in Sri Lanka ended in the abolition of the death penalty in all Commonwealth 2009. There were concerns about human rights abuses countries. Finally, I call on our Prime Minister not to and war crimes, committed by both the Sri Lankan attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting Government and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. this November, so enabling him to draw attention to the International attention was captured by allegations of current concerns in Sri Lanka. the systematic targeting of civilian hospitals within a designated no-missile zone. Video evidence exists of extreme cruelty, including beheadings and rape. Such 2.48 pm images shocked the international community and left a Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is a pleasure permanent scar on Sri Lanka’s human rights record. It to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Gray. was absolutely correct that the allegations were investigated I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah and that due redress followed those investigations. To Champion)—I want to say “my hon. Friend”—for her examine events during the period from 2002 to May speech. It is a pleasure to attend this afternoon’s debate 2009, President Mahinda Rajapaksa established the to support and agree with much of what she had to say. Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission, which Like her, and the hon. Members for Bristol East (Kerry was welcomed by many civilians. Implementing the McCarthy) and for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman- commission’s recommendations, however, has been both Woods), I was at the Commonwealth Parliamentary slow and selective. Post-2009, grave concerns still exist Association conference last week and found it a fascinating, about military engagement in civilian activities in the if sometimes frustrating, experience. I had not intended north, including sexual abuse, the situation of detainees to take part or speak as much as I did, which is probably from the war, the impact of forcible disappearances, the case for many of us, but some of what we heard at impunity, hatred and violence against religious minorities, the conference could not go unanswered. the intimidation and harassment of human rights defenders, the weakening of democracy, growing authoritarianism, Gatherings of the Commonwealth, such as the CPA the erosion of the rule of law and the abduction and conference, are great moments. Bringing parliamentarians murder of journalists. across the Commonwealth together is completely appropriate, to remind us of the shared values and Last month, the United Nations High Commissioner history that we enjoy. We found a lot of consensus for Human Rights, Navanethem Pillay, completed a among Commonwealth parliamentarians on a range of seven-day visit to Sri Lanka. She raised strong concerns issues. I attended a number of sessions, including one over the continual and increasingly authoritarian direction on the empowerment of women, although that went a in the country.The international community—in particular, little bit agley, with a contribution on the legalisation of the Commonwealth community—should put pressure drugs, which did not seem appropriate to a debate on on President Mahinda Rajapaksa to force him to show female empowerment in business, unless there was a that there is a strategic plan to implement all the LLRC niche interest. We also had an interesting session on report before Sri Lanka’s Ministers consider attending caring for our elderly population, which was a bit more the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. orderly. The female parliamentarians also had many Owing to the lack of clear implementation of the LLRC enjoyable hours in the Commonwealth women’s conference, report and continuous concerns about human rights from which of course we men were barred. That aside, it abuses, I am calling on David Cameron and senior was an interesting gathering. ministers— In the plenary sessions, bearing in mind the Commonwealth charter and the provisions on democracy, Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. I believe that we had some interesting discussions about self- the hon. Lady means the Prime Minister. determination and the democratic rights of the citizens of Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. There was strong Sarah Champion: I apologise. Thank you for the support for the motion that we eventually agreed on correction, Mr Gray. I am calling on the Prime Minister Gibraltar and for the motion that we quickly agreed on and senior Ministers not to attend the Commonwealth the Falklands. The British delegation was united in Heads of Government meeting in November, unless support of the rights of people in the Falkland Islands there is a serious and committed response from President and Gibraltar to determine their own destiny and future. 311WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 312WH

[Andrew Percy] things, but we have a level of protection for rights, which have expanded in recent years, of which we We had an interesting debate on human rights in should be proud. I therefore felt that it was important to general and on the charter. The hon. Member for speak up on the issue and to make it clear that, while we Bristol East made a fine speech from the podium—fine have stains on our own history, we have learned the and provocative, which I think was what she intended, lessons. It is not about preaching, but about simply and it certainly sparked an important debate. She made standing up for the rights of minorities elsewhere. reference to the charter’s article on human rights: If there was one glimmer of hope on the LGBT issue, “We are committed to equality and respect for the protection it came in the contribution of one of the Ugandan and promotion of civil, political, economic, social and cultural parliamentarians. He seemed to be saying, “Well, we rights…We are implacably opposed to all forms of discrimination, know that our views on this issue are not as developed whether rooted in gender, race, colour, creed, political belief or as yours. Maybe, in a couple of decades’ time, this won’t other grounds.” be an issue for us.” That seemed a strange admission, Debate was sparked off by “other grounds”, and turned almost as if he was saying, “We know we are wrong, into a discussion of the treatment of lesbian, gay, and in 30 years’ time we won’t be wrong.” It was an odd bisexual and transgender individuals in different countries. contribution. I spoke to that parliamentarian afterwards, I do not speak regularly on LGBT issues in this however, and he was at pains to assure me that the country because, fortunately, we operate a “live and let particular piece of legislation before the Ugandan live” policy. Rights have advanced greatly in the past Parliament, of which the hon. Member for Rotherham few years, certainly under the previous Government made mention, was unlikely to be introduced in its and hopefully under this Government with regards to current form. equal marriage, so the issue is not one on which I would That debate divided the Commonwealth—sadly, as usually engage, although I am supportive of those older Commonwealth against new Commonwealth—and rights. We almost take them for granted in this country, comments that were supportive of what the hon. Member people of my generation in particular but, given some for Bristol East had said tended to come from our of the contributions at the conference after the speech delegation. My right hon. Friend the Member for South by the hon. Member for Bristol East, I could not help East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice) made an excellent but participate in the debate. contribution, and there were contributions from Canada and of New Zealand. Samantha Sacramento, the Minister We heard some quite frightening speeches, in particular for Equality from Gibraltar, made a fine contribution from Cameroon and, to an extent, from Ugandan as well, but for me the best speech came from the representatives. It reminded me that, although we have podium, from the Deputy Speaker of the South African much in common throughout the Commonwealth, with Parliament. Deputy Speaker Mfeketo made a brilliant many shared values, there is a great deal that divides us, speech in which she spoke passionately about how the and we should not pretend that those divisions do not experience of South Africa was relevant to LGBT rights; exist. Furthermore, it is incumbent on all parliamentarians in that country, they know about the impact of one from this country and from other parts of the community being divided off and having special laws Commonwealth to make it clear when we disagree. In passed against it. response to comments from a Cameroonian delegate regarding homosexuality, in which she stated that it Such comments were more powerful coming from went against the laws of nature, there was a sharp another African politician, rather than, sad to say, from intake of breath from our delegation and many others a white parliamentarian. Many contributions, such as in the room, particularly the Canadians, who also spoke that of a parliamentarian from Mauritius, were in essence, on the issue. I therefore felt the need to speak in that “Well, you gave us these views. Youcame here in colonial debate. times with those views. You came with your Bible and told us that this was wrong, and yet now you are Appropriately enough, we were in South Africa, a preaching to us.” All the contributions from Canada, country that knows all too well the history of dividing New Zealand and the UK were of limited impact one group from another to the disadvantage of all. compared with the fine speech of Deputy Speaker When we attack one individual’s rights, ultimately we Mfeketo. have an impact on everyone else’s rights. I felt the need to intervene in that debate, and to point out things with which I am sure everyone in the Chamber would agree. Stephen Doughty: The hon. Gentleman is making an We do not want to preach to those countries, and we interesting point. Does he share my concern about have a stain on our own history in terms of what people some groups, in particular from the United States, have thought—not so long ago in this country we which have been stirring up homophobic hatred in thought that a role for women in politics was inappropriate countries such as Uganda? There are some quite sinister and that people in Africa were incapable of governing activities going on, with a number of reports over the themselves. We know about such stains on our history, past few months. That is exactly the opposite of what which I made mention of and about which we are we ought to be seeing. embarrassed. Similarly, as I said in Johannesburg last week, even Andrew Percy: I am concerned about that, and some today in our own country, which is a modern, liberal-looking people in our own country like to stir up such views. I democracy, as parliamentarians we come across people hope that Ugandans are as quick to dismiss the views of who still hold quite frightening views. Our responsibility such outside influences, wherever they come from, as is to challenge such views. I do not pretend that our they would be to dismiss the views of their former country does not have people who think some of those colonial masters. 313WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 314WH

As I said, the contribution from the South African People in my office have met Victoria, I have read Deputy Speaker was very fine, and I associate myself witness statements, and the Sri Lankan police have with calls from the hon. Member for Bristol East at the shown me medical reports that prove those points. conference and the hon. Member for Rotherham today Obviously, Khuram’s family are extremely distressed. that we must do more to ensure that the charter does We are approaching two years since the murder but no exactly what it says on the tin—as the old Ronseal one has been charged. Khuram’s father, who is also my advert used to say.Furthermore, when the charter mentions constituent, visits his grave every day and his brother, discrimination on “other grounds”, our country and Naser, campaigns hard for justice. The pain and anguish our Government must challenge such discrimination, can still be seen in their eyes when one meets them. whatever and wherever it may be. I turn to the human rights aspect of the case. We are I want to comment briefly on Sri Lanka. I heard the all well aware of the Commonwealth charter, which hon. Lady’s call for a boycott. I have engaged in issues refers, among other things, to the rule of law, a key arising from the Israel-Palestine conflict, but I have principle that Commonwealth countries are expected to always been against boycotts as a way of trying to solve abide by. We all know of glaring examples of Sri Lanka such issues. The Commonwealth Parliamentary not following that principle: the recent impeachment of Association’s conference next year will be in Cameroon. its chief justice; journalists being murdered or kidnapped, Given some of its views on the rights of LGBT people as my hon. Friend pointed out; the disappearance of and women, it could be said that we should not attend people who do not agree with the Government; and it, but boycotts are not necessarily the solution. What systematic political interference with cases in the justice Prime Minister Harper has done in Ottawa was bold, system. but I am not sure that a boycott would be in our interest. I sometimes think it is better to attend such The lack of justice for the murder of Khuram Shaikh meetings and to make the case on the ground in the is an example that encapsulates Sri Lanka’s refusal to country concerned. We must be careful about boycotts, follow the rule of law. It is a matter of public record that although I entirely concur with the hon. Lady’s comments one of Khuram’s alleged murderers is a local politician on human rights in Sri Lanka. Indeed, the hon. Member who is close to President Rajapaksa and his son. Indeed, for Bristol East referred to that issue at the conference, such political goons operate and deliver on behalf of and she challenged the Sri Lankan delegation to the President’s political party in Sri Lanka. demonstrate a commitment to human rights at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. The allegation in Sri Lanka is that the case will not come to trial. We are approaching the second anniversary I concur with much of what the hon. Member for of the murder, but the suspects have not been charged. Rotherham said. The conference last week was fascinating. The rule of law is not being applied, because those One does not often come back feeling like a human people are being protected by the Sri Lankan President. rights advocate because one does not often feel the need Khuram’s case has taken on significance in Sri Lanka for that in this country, but I came back from South because it encapsulates the problems that many Sri Africa better educated and a little frightened at some of Lankans face at the hands of their own Government. the views I heard. The Government must ensure that There is no doubt in my mind that the Sri Lankan they challenge those despicable views. Government do not respect human rights, and there is no doubt that the rule of law is not being applied. Several hon. Members rose— Khuram’s case exemplifies that. Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. It may be I turn to what the British Government can or should helpful to hon. Members to know that I intend to call do about these issues. The Foreign and Commonwealth the Front Bench speakers at 3.45 pm. If my simple Office has been very helpful in pursuing the case, and I arithmetic works, that probably means that other hon. am pleased that our Queen has decided not to attend Members have seven or eight minutes, if that is agreeable. the Commonwealth Heads of Government summit in November. There is a political dimension to the matter. 3.1 pm All the indications are that the Prime Minister will attend the summit in Sri Lanka, and I believe that to be Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): It is a delight, a grave mistake. The Government put strong emphasis Mr Gray, to serve under your chairmanship. I thank my on exports and believe that developing trade is important. hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) I welcome Rolls-Royce’s major deal with SriLankan for such an important debate. I want to concentrate on Airlines, but that should not wipe out our concerns three issues: the murder of my constituent, Khuram about how the Sri Lankan Government treat their own Shaikh; Sri Lanka’s inability to follow the Commonwealth people and foreign nationals. The Prime Minister’s commitments on the rule of law; and the Prime Minister’s attendance will be seen as endorsing the Sri Lankan decision to attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government’s disregard for human rights and the rule Government summit in Sri Lanka in November. of law. Some hon. Members may be unaware of Khuram Shaikh’s case. At Christmas 2011, he went on holiday The spectre of Khuram’s death and the failure to get with his partner, Victoria, to Tangalle in Sri Lanka. At justice will haunt the British Prime Minister as long as a Christmas day party at their hotel, a number of what he is on Sri Lankan soil. It will be literally horrifying to the Sri Lankans would call political goons entered the see a British Prime Minister shaking hands with a hotel and started to cause trouble. My constituent was Sri Lankan President who is so intimately involved in stabbed and shot dead. Victoria was taken to a basement protecting the murderers of a British national. For that room and gang-raped. I know that because I visited the reason alone, I urge the Government and the Minister crime scene in Sri Lanka and have spoken to witnesses. to think twice about who attends the summit. 315WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 316WH

3.7 pm She argued that Sri Lanka “is showing signs of heading in an increasingly authoritarian Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): direction.” With the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting scheduled to go ahead as planned later this year, I She raised concerns about the intend to talk about the insult and hurt caused by its “curtailment or denial of personal freedoms and human taking place in Sri Lanka. This country has had a bad rights…persistent impunity and the failure of the rule of law.” few weeks of doing nothing about human rights abusers, She also warned: but my disappointment at Britain’s decision to give “There are a number of specific factors impeding normalisation, succour to the human rights abusers in Sri Lanka which—if not quickly rectified—may sow the seeds of future knows no bounds. discord.” Our Government have happily bestowed respectability Meanwhile, even a recent Foreign and Commonwealth on a regime that cluster-bombed its own hospitals, Office human rights report has named Sri Lanka as one killed tens of thousands of its own citizens and turned of its 27 countries of concern. It is no wonder the its country into the most dangerous place in the world Foreign Affairs Committee concluded last November in which to be a journalist. Amnesty International has that holding the Commonwealth meeting in Colombo said: was “wrong” and urged the Prime Minister to avoid going unless he received “We continue to witness a deterioration of human rights in Sri Lanka”. “convincing and independently-verified evidence of substantial and sustainable improvements in human and political rights”. It has also stated: No such improvements have taken place. According to “Despite the armed conflict ending over four years ago, human Freedom From Torture, rights violations continue, with the Sri Lankan Government cracking down on critics through threats, harassment, imprisonment “for the first time in years, Sri Lanka has replaced Iran at the top and violent attacks. Journalists, the judiciary, human rights activists of the shameful table that tallies the country of origin for the and opposition politicians are among those who have been targeted thousands referred to us each year for clinical services here in the in this disturbing pattern of government-sanctioned abuse.” UK.” As time goes by, it becomes increasingly clear that the I share Amnesty’s disappointment that the UK Government war and all that has followed have been a criminal “failed to assert that the Commonwealth Heads of Government venture. The International Committee of the Red Cross should not be hosted by Sri Lanka unless there were significant has described the conflict as an “unimaginable humanitarian improvements in human rights”. catastrophe”. Tens of thousands of people were massacred, I remember the terrible stories constituents used to and oppression on a scale beyond our imaginations tell me about their friends and family. For example, my really did take place. local newsagent had lost contact with his sister who was Thanks to the amazing work of brave journalists trapped with her family in a bunker in the so-called such as Sunday Times war correspondent Marie Colvin, no-fire zone, being shelled by the Sri Lankan Government we know that the Sri Lankan Government were firing every day.So incessant was the bombing that, in desperation, cluster bombs, white phosphorus and rockets at civilian she made a run for it across open land that was heavily areas, including hospitals and so-called safe zones. In bombarded. No one has heard from her since. A young previous debates, I have reflected on the dreadful loss of man who lives near the tube station told me about his Ms Colvin. It is a cruel irony that she was killed aunt, whose body had been so badly mutilated that her covering human rights abuses in Syria, where the world family had to take a box to pick up all the pieces. has so far done little to stand up to a brutal regime that Channel 4’s groundbreaking “Killing Fields” has no qualms about mass killings of civilians and documentaries have drawn the world’s attention to a abuses of the rules of war, when she spent so many major human rights catastrophe—what the UN panel years campaigning against similar abuses in Sri Lanka. of experts called a As the UN has stressed, “grave assault on the entire regime of international law”. “not to hold accountable those who committed serious crimes...is a clear violation.” The latest figures show that more than 146,000 Tamils remain unaccounted for, with the World Bank estimating When we hold no one to account, we get what we now that 100,000 people are still missing, probably dead. witness in Sri Lanka: extra-judicial killings, enforced Justice must prevail, yet there has been no independent disappearances, gender-based violence and torture. Despite international commission of inquiry to investigate these that, a Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting crimes. is still scheduled to take place in Colombo, and our Government are doing nothing to stop it. What sort of There is still no civil administration in the north. message does that send? Instead, the area has a military governor. The people have no democratic representation of the kind we would The Commonwealth was right when it took from recognise in the west. Tamils continue to suffer due to Sri Lanka the honour of hosting the previous the Sri Lankan armed forces’ military control of the Commonwealth summit, and Britain was right to be in north and east, and resettled war victims have no say. the group of nations leading the way in calling for that The situation on the ground is not good. honour to be taken away. If that was right then, how can it be right now to bestow honour on a regime that Speaking at the end of her visit to the country in has not changed? August, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, The truth remains that Sri Lanka has still not undertaken Navi Pillay, said that a truly independent international investigation into war “although the fighting is over, the suffering is not.” crimes. Were such an investigation enforced, there might 317WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 318WH be reconciliation and lasting peace. The British Government Ms Pillay’s concerns are far from isolated. As my clearly disagree. They have sent the wrong message by hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden not boycotting the summit, and that is made worse by alluded to, Amnesty International continues to highlight policies such as deporting Tamil asylum seekers and the lack of genuine, substantial measures on the part of selling weapons to Sri Lanka’s military. the Government of Sri Lanka to meet their human The coalition’s actions stand in marked contrast to rights obligations. There remains a significant body of those of the previous Labour Government. We helped evidence pointing to serious human rights violations, to bring an end to Sri Lanka’s preferential trading some of which amount to war crimes or crimes against status in the EU, we voted against an International humanity, including extra-judicial executions, enforced Monetary Fund loan deal worth $2.5 billion and we disappearances and the intentional shelling of citizens. blocked Sri Lanka’s bid to host a Commonwealth summit. Critics of the Government, whether they are Sinhalese, Tamil, Muslim or Christian, continue to face harassment. If we just roll over and let the Sri Lankan Government Torture in police custody is routine, and attacks on take the mickey out of us, whatever will people think in minorities appear to be increasingly widespread and Syria? For the sake of other civilians around the world tolerated. who are under threat from their Governments, we have a responsibility to be strong when it comes to Sri Lanka. According to Amnesty International, there have been Justice will not be served by giving the Sri Lankan more than 20 attacks on Muslim places of worship and regime a platform or by giving President Rajapaksa businesses in the past 12 months. There was apparently dozens of photo opportunities alongside leaders such no known investigation into an attack in July on the as our Prime Minister who were too weak to say they Arafa Jumma mosque in Mahiyangana. Apparently, a would not go to the summit. Every brutal dictator Government Minister simply ordered that the mosque around the world will look at those pictures and think, be closed. Journalists, opposition candidates, human “Yes, Sri Lanka is respectable now. They ignored the rights activists and particularly Tamils in the north and rules of decency. They committed atrocities against the east are routinely harassed, intimidated and assaulted. their own people. The world did nothing. And now As other hon. Members have said, the question remains, tribute is being paid to them. Crime does pay.” Is that why on earth are Commonwealth Heads of State still the message we want to send? Not in my name. planning to meet in Sri Lanka for their annual summit, thereby validating the regime? As the House is aware and as other Members have restated, the Canadian 3.15 pm Government have made clear their profound concern. Indeed, Prime Minister Harper has said he will not Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Given attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting that the UN Commission on Human Rights is in session if Sri Lanka remains the host. this month, my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) has done the House a service by A series of other eminent Commonwealth advocates ensuring that we have the opportunity to debate human have highlighted Sri Lanka’s unsuitability to host CHOGM. rights across the Commonwealth. Their concerns are thrown into sharp relief by the new Commonwealth charter, which was agreed in March by Like previous speakers, I want to focus on Sri Lanka. Her Majesty the Queen, following the agreement of the I therefore warmly welcome the comments of my hon. rest of the Commonwealth states. The charter was one Friends the Members for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain of the key recommendations made by the eminent McDonagh) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), as persons group to reform the Commonwealth that was well as the opening remarks of my hon. Friend the accepted at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Member for Rotherham. meeting in October 2011, and the Prime Minister committed My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden to it. Perhaps the most crucial passage in the charter is: alluded to the fact that Navi Pillay, the UN’s human “We are committed to equality and respect for the protection rights commissioner, visited Sri Lanka at the end of and promotion of civil, political, economic, social and cultural August and held extensive meetings with people in the rights, including the right to development, for all without north and the east, as well as with Government officials, discrimination on any grounds as the foundations of peaceful, politicians and a series of organisations. She is the most just and stable societies.” senior UN official to have visited the north since the The Sri Lankan Government can by no means be UN Secretary-General visited back in 2009. Although painted as achieving, or even be perceived as taking it is welcome that Ms Pillay was allowed to go wherever serious steps to achieve, that commitment. I therefore she wanted, it is striking that she has reported that the continue to be surprised at how little effort Ministers Sri Lankans who came to meet her were harassed and have put into using the CHOGM as leverage to achieve intimidated by security forces before and after their reform in Sri Lanka. Why, for example, have the Prime meetings. Minister and the Foreign Office not sought to build a Ms Pillay’s statement following her visit was particularly coalition to have Sri Lanka formally put on the agenda striking. She noted, among other things, that the surveillance of the Commonwealth ministerial action group? There and harassment that she described appear to be getting may be meetings of Commonwealth Ministers where worse in Sri Lanka, where critical voices are often the subject of Sri Lanka comes up; but that is not the attacked or even permanently silenced. She outlined same as a decision to put it on the agenda of the concerns about recent attacks on religious minorities ministerial action group. and reported a series of complaints about missing relatives, In the past, countries such as Zimbabwe, Pakistan, military land grabs and life without basic facilities. Nigeria and Fiji have all been—indeed, Fiji still is—formal Given that Ms Pillay is such a senior figure in the UN, items on the ministerial action group agenda. An implicit the bluntness and directness of her comments are striking. rebuke is thereby sent from the whole Commonwealth, 319WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 320WH

[Mr Gareth Thomas] have already heard some of them—but it contains a strong commitment to tackling discrimination in whatever and it is forced to set up a series of actions to be taken form people experience it. It is up to all of us to press to bring a country back in line with Commonwealth for those commitments to be implemented. values. If the Minister and his colleagues are serious In the few minutes I have for my speech I will concentrate about wanting to apply pressure to the Rajapaksa on the need for further progress on gender equality. I Government, perhaps he will commit today to building shall do that through two aspects of the matter: women’s a coalition of Commonwealth countries to put Sri representation in Parliament and the education of young Lanka on the Commonwealth ministerial action group girls. I am not suggesting that the other issues that have agenda. Given the importance of Canada’s views within been raised this afternoon are not important, but I do the Commonwealth, Britain would surely have a crucial not want us to lose the gender dimension of the work ally in beginning to apply the pressure necessary to that needs to be done. achieve that end. The Commonwealth’s current plan for action for I should welcome clarification of the Minister’s view gender equality runs from 2005 to 2015; it has found of the Commonwealth secretary-general’s performance that across the Commonwealth Parliaments continue to in his handling of human rights concerns in Sri Lanka. be male-dominated, and that the goal of increasing I can find no evidence of any statement even of concern female participation in political bodies and representational from him. He has agreed to organise an observer mission politics is far from being achieved. Some of the major to follow the provincial elections in the north of Sri Lanka, challenges identified by the Commonwealth secretariat but in the context of widespread human rights abuses, included the persistence of traditional gender stereotypes, that invitation appears to be another example of the conflict for women between family and work demands, observance of the forms of democracy, rather than its the masculine culture of politics and inadequate funding substance. If I am right to think that Mr Sharma has to support female candidates. Going by the many not spoken out, it is surprising that a secretary-general discussions in the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians who presided over a recommitment to the Commonwealth’s sessions last week and the week before, those things democratic values and traditions as recently as March continue to be barriers to women’s representation in should have nothing to say about continuing human politics and wider public life for many of our colleagues rights abuses in Sri Lanka—never mind those that date across the Commonwealth. back to the events of 2009. However, we in Britain should recognise that we also If the Prime Minister goes to Sri Lanka without have some way to go. I paid tribute several times last taking any further significant steps, he will be validating week to our African sisters who have made more progress the regime and giving it succour and comfort. He will than we have. For example, the Rwandan Parliament create further incentives for Mr Rajapaksa and his has made great strides in the advancement of women. I colleagues to continue to ignore Commonwealth values. think that my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham said that they currently hold 56% of the parliamentary 3.23 pm seats there. They are also well represented among Ministers and are creating strong role models for women and girls. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I Aspects of the Rwandan experience are being transferred congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham to other Governments. The Seychelles, South Africa (Sarah Champion) on securing the debate, which is and Mozambique are making significant progress in timely coming so soon after last week’s Commonwealth increasing the number of female representatives in their parliamentary conference. Parliaments. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for We all acknowledged last week that much more needs Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) for giving an informed to be done. The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association speech in South Africa about human rights and the has a great role to play in continuing to support women charter. It was not only an informed speech but an and getting more of them into politics. We had the first extremely brave one, which directly confronted prejudice gender conference here last November, supported by in all its forms across the Commonwealth. The spirited the CPA UK branch and the British group of the debate that followed showed that she had touched a few Inter-Parliamentary Union. It identified the need for nerves. I pay tribute also to the hon. Member for Brigg ongoing training, ongoing support, mentoring schemes and Goole (Andrew Percy), who among other things and the need to talk to women about how they raise kept us amused during long hours at the conference. I money locally to support candidatures in local and thought in some of his comments he was in danger of national elections. I hope that we as a Parliament can making it seem much more interesting and fun than I continue to support that work. remember it being—but I obviously spent too long in However, we will not get more women into public life meetings. It is worth pointing out in passing what a unless we address the issue of girls’ access to education, strong UK delegation we sent to the conference. We which, again, we discussed in detail last week. We know certainly made our voices heard on the question of that we will fail to meet millennium development goals promoting human rights in the Commonwealth. We got 2 and 3 on getting universal access to primary education a lot of interesting work done, and I think we genuinely and getting more girls into school, but those matters are made progress for some of our colleagues. so important. The World Bank has made it really clear We should take a moment to welcome the that economies in developing countries will not progress Commonwealth charter, because it contains some very unless more girls are educated. Across the Commonwealth, useful statements and sentiments, which will help us to we have to press for millennium development goals 2 move towards greater equality in Commonwealth countries. and 3 to be met, and I hope that we can use CHOGM I am short of time so I shall not read out key phrases—we for that. I have heard what my hon. Friends have said 321WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 322WH today—that the meeting should not happen. However, Islam. There are no church gatherings or buildings. Religion is it is likely to take place in Sri Lanka, and I hope that we moving towards Deobandi Islam—the religion of the Taliban, can use it to lobby our Commonwealth Heads of whose mission is to cleanse Islam of all other influences. There Government to make better progress on getting girls are very few indigenous believers.” into education and to tackle the issues of child marriage Will the Minister tell us what has been done, from his and female genital mutilation, which we did not manage office, to influence Commonwealth countries and to raise as much as we could have done last week. We specifically the Maldives to allow the basic right to must have that on CHOGM’s agenda. religious freedom? What protection is given to people, Lastly, when I was in Lesotho a couple of weeks ago, and what action and responses have there been? I saw that its Government were trying to get more girls Referring to Nigeria and particularly Nigeria north, into school. They have major challenges ahead of them. Open Doors said: A number of UK charities, including the Durham-Lesotho “The Islamist agenda to bring Nigeria under the ‘House of Islam’ Link in my constituency, are doing all that they can to versus the election of a southern Christian as President has help improve access to education. Sentebale is doing caused much unrest. The Islamist group, Boko Haram, has claimed important work there. We have to reach out beyond the lives of at least 800 Christians”— Parliament to voluntary sector organisations, so that we we cannot deny the extremity and brutality of the are not only pressing Commonwealth Governments to violence there has been. make progress but assisting them practically in doing so. “The decisions of local government, especially in the twelve northern Sharia states, mean that Christians experience restrictions 3.32 pm in schooling, threats of abduction, forced marriage”— there has been violence against women, as hon. Ladies Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the have referred to in their contributions— hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) on bringing the matter of human rights before us for “as well as denial of employment, clean water and health care. It consideration in the Chamber. It is a great privilege to is dangerous to convert and for churches to integrate new converts.” be able to comment on it in the time I have. I specifically Some of the stories that have come from that country want to focus on the right to religious freedom and are awful and abhorrent. liberty, which has increasingly been denied to those who What has Great Britain done to influence the situation? profess the Christian faith throughout the world. Members Have we given any support on the ground to Christians have referred to the Commonwealth charter. Words in the area? I hope that we have, through the Foreign mean nothing without action, and this debate is all Office and through Ministers. If we have not, what are about action to follow the words of many people on the we doing? Have we advocated religious freedom? If we matter. In introducing the debate, the hon. Lady referred have not so far, why not? If I sign my name to something to religious liberties, as others have, and I want to focus in the House, I always intend, as other Members do, to on that issue. take it right through to the end. I am keen to find out The national director of Aid to the Church in Need what we have done, as a Government and a nation, on UK, Neville Kyrke-Smith, has cited research stating behalf of Christians, who are the silent minority in that 75% of all religious hatred in the world is directed many countries. We cannot remain silent, and I ask the against Christians. He has referred to 200 million Christians Minister to begin to address the issue through whatever facing discrimination and 100,000 being killed each means are diplomatically permissible. year for their faith. I am aware, Mr Gray—you will keep me right on this one—that “Human Rights in the Time does not permit me to go on too long. However, Commonwealth” is the title of the debate, so I shall I would like to take the time to highlight the fact that of focus my contribution on the Commonwealth and its the seven countries that are applying for Commonwealth countries. There certainly continues to be a denial of status, three are in the watch list of the top 50 countries the right to religious freedom, and subsequent persecution for Christian persecution—Algeria, Sudan and the Yemen. of Christians, in those countries, and the Foreign and Will the Minister pledge today that those applications Commonwealth Office should be more proactive in will not succeed unless each country takes major steps addressing that. The Open Doors 2013 world watch list to see an end to the persecution of Christians and to is shocking. Nine out of the top 50 persecuted areas are allow complete religious freedom for all? Commonwealth countries, so clearly, Commonwealth When I look at Commonwealth countries and countries have a job to do. I find the situation disturbing understand that they make up almost a third of the in the extreme. population of the world, at 2.2 billion people, I am In the top 10, there is the Maldives, which is well reminded of my history lessons. History was one of the known as a holiday destination. I shall not mention the subjects at school that I liked—it was probably the only person’s name, but one of my constituents is in the one that I excelled at, to be honest. I am interested in Maldives this week. He is a Christian who goes to my history, and particularly the history of the Victorian church, and if he reads his Bible in the Maldives and era. Under Queen Victoria, Britain ruled a third of the people know about it, he will be arrested. He will be world. It was said that the sun never set on the British deported, and probably thrown in prison, and have all empire, because of the vastness of what Britain controlled. sorts of actions taken against him. Open Doors records: Although I am fully aware that membership of the Commonwealth does not equate to that in any way, it “This is the only country in the world which requires all citizens to be Muslim. Conversion to another faith is prohibited does equate to some form of influence. I believe that we by law and converts face extreme pressure from family and must step up and use our influence to ensure that there society—often having to leave the country. The authorities exert are human rights and religious freedom for all, in every extensive control on the people to correct any deviation from area of the Commonwealth. 323WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 324WH

[Jim Shannon] I want to pick up the point about LGBT rights being covered, we think, under the broad description of “other When Queen Victoria was asked the secret of the grounds”. I suspect that the intention was that because empire’s success, she said: it would be impossible to get every Commonwealth “Tell your prince that this book is the secret of England’s country to sign up to a specific reference to discrimination greatness.” on the grounds of sexual orientation, “other grounds” She was referring to the Bible. I believe that the freedom would be included so that countries that want to interpret to worship will also be what the success of the that as meaning that we are against discrimination on Commonwealth is about, and I fully support the views those grounds can believe that, and those that are more that other Members have put forward today. reluctant to do so can pretend that it is not really in there. That lets some of the countries off the hook. I am 3.38 pm referring to the 41 countries that will claim adherence to Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure, the charter, but will continue with their policies of as ever, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I discrimination. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham Let me cite an example. I mentioned it in South (Sarah Champion) and all the other speakers, several of Africa in response to the delegate from Cameroon. In whom were in South Africa with me last week. I hope June of this year, the gay activist Eric Lembembe said in that I do not repeat too much of the speech I made in response to attacks that were taking place on the offices Johannesburg, as they might find it much duller on a of gay rights organisations in Cameroon: second hearing. “Unfortunately, a climate of hatred and bigotry in Cameroon, As a starting point, I want to echo what the hon. which extends to high levels in government, reassures homophobes Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, which was that they can get away with these crimes.” that the charter means nothing if it is just words on Two weeks later, he was horrifically tortured and murdered. paper. It is very easy for people to sign up and say, “We This is the important thing. Governments have a key all share these values”, and “We are one big happy role to play, but not just in the laws that they pass. They family—aren’t we lovely people?”, and so on. What the must recognise that the laws that they pass and the Government do on the ground is what matters. It is discussions that they have in Parliament filter down about how they implement the charter and how they into horrific attacks on people in the streets. We see this continue to review and monitor it, and make it stronger. even in countries such as South Africa. I echo what the The most important thing is that the charter must not hon. Member for Brigg and Goole said. The Deputy be used as a fig leaf for human rights violations. Speaker of the South African Parliament made an I also want to echo what the hon. Member for Brigg amazing speech, declaring her support for equality and and Goole (Andrew Percy) said. When I spoke in saying that that was a country that had fought Johannesburg last week, I was very conscious that we discrimination, and had fought apartheid. Thirty or should not, as the UK, be going in and preaching to 40 years ago, at that Commonwealth meeting, there other people about human rights, particularly given our would have been people arguing that apartheid was history as the colonial power in many of the countries perfectly legitimate on human rights grounds, that different that we are addressing. people had to respect different cultures and so on. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is ironic that, going back However, even though that country has enshrined anti- many years, we took Christianity to some of these discrimination measures in law, there is still that battle countries and told them that things such as homosexuality for hearts and minds that needs to be won at grass-roots were wrong, but now we are coming back and saying, level. The stories that we heard about corrective rape of “Hang on, we got it wrong that time. You have to think lesbian women and the fact that the police were not something completely different.” really prepared to take those allegations seriously were One thing that came out of the response to my speech very worrying indeed. in Johannesburg was this. We were told by a few of the I therefore ask the Minister to tell us what the delegates, “You have to give us time, because we’re new Government have done to pursue this agenda since our democracies. You’ve been established a lot longer. It debate in March on Commonwealth day. He said then: will take us longer to win hearts and minds and to “We fundamentally believe that we should do much more and progress these ideas of equality.” What concerns me we remain concerned by recent attempts in several Commonwealth about some of the countries is not that they are taking states to introduce punitive laws on homosexuality.”—[Official longer to reach the position that we are at with things Report, 14 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 186WH.] such as same-sex marriage and allowing gay couples to Is it the Minister’s view that laws criminalising adopt, but that they are moving backwards—in the homosexuality and, in particular, attempts to introduce wrong direction. I am thinking of things such as the Bill the death penalty for same-sex relationships not only that Uganda has been debating for the past few years undermine the clause in the charter that talks about an about bringing in the death penalty for homosexuality. appreciation for The issue there is not people struggling to keep up with us and moving more slowly than us; that Bill is actually “the dignity of all human beings”, a step in the wrong direction. We also see that with but violate international human rights standards? other countries outside the Commonwealth, such as I will mention very quickly the issue of the death Russia, which is now moving in a very worrying direction penalty, because my hon. Friend the Member for on LGBT rights. Rotherham was very comprehensive in her coverage. I As was said, the Commonwealth charter refers to the am pleased that the UN Human Rights Council is Commonwealth’s opposition to looking at, in particular, the issue of the death penalty “all forms of discrimination”. for under-16s, for pregnant women and for people with 325WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 326WH mental and intellectual disabilities, and the impact on reviewing the size and scale of our delegation and, the children of those who are executed. That has not indeed, our attendance overall.” However, in May, the been on the agenda before, so I welcome that, but would Prime Minister announced that both he and the Foreign the Minister update us on the impact in the Commonwealth Secretary would represent the UK in Colombo. Can the of the Government’s “Strategy for Abolition of the Minister tell us what changed between the end of April, Death Penalty” and what attempts the Foreign Office is when it seemed that that was still a matter for consideration, making to promote the second optional protocol to the and early May? Why was the decision taken to send the international covenant on civil and political rights? most senior delegation, and why did the Government That protocol specifically signs people up to opposing choose to announce that so far in advance? the death penalty. Does the Minister share my assessment It is not even clear that the Government are united that the death penalty—the use of capital punishment— behind the decision. In May, the Deputy Prime Minister does not comply with the spirit of the charter, and is acknowledged in the House that it was a “controversial” that an argument that we will be advancing with other decision Commonwealth countries? “in the light of the despicable human rights violations”. Let me briefly mention something else that I talked He concluded rather vaguely: about in South Africa. We had just had news of the resolution of a particularly horrific case in the Maldives. “If such violations continue, and if the Sri Lankan Government continue to ignore their international commitments in the lead up It involved a 15-year-old girl who had been sexually to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, of course abused by her stepfather for many years and ended up there will be consequences.”—[Official Report, 15 May 2013; giving birth to his child. When she tried to report that to Vol. 563, c. 634.] the authorities, she confessed to having some sort of When I tabled a written question, however, the Under- sexual relations with another adult man and she was Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth sentenced to a flogging—100 lashes—which could have Affairs, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire been postponed until her 18th birthday. When I went to (Alistair Burt), was unable to tell me what those meet the relevant Minister in the Maldives, I was told consequences might be and in which circumstances they that that should not have happened; she was a vulnerable would be considered. I hope that this Minister will be child and should have been a ward of court. The people able to provide more clarification in his closing remarks. there were at great pains to assure me that it was a mistake. As it happened, the Government could not I do not have time now to discuss the report of the direct the court to drop the sentence, but that did UN High Commissioner for Human Rights about her eventually occur. recent visit to Sri Lanka—some of my colleagues have mentioned that—but I hope that the Minister will do Yes, that is a particularly extreme example of someone so. I know that he has limited time; he is looking at the who should not have been subjected to such an ordeal, clock, but he will get his 10 minutes. The UN commissioner’s but many other women still find that although they are conclusion was: the victim of a crime, they are treated as criminals. They “The war may have ended, but in the meantime democracy has are charged with adultery and receive the punishments been undermined and the rule of law eroded”. that flow from that because they have been raped. Sometimes they are forced to marry their attacker. She warned that Sri Lanka, far from showing improvement, There is just the fact that flogging is used. I was told in was the Maldives that they tend to turn a blind eye to “showing signs of heading in an increasingly authoritarian direction”. adultery unless a pregnancy results, because that is I hope the Minister will tell us what consideration the concrete evidence that something has been going on. As Government have given to the UN commissioner’s report a result, 95% of convictions and punishments for adultery and whether it has influenced the size, scale and scope are given to women, because it is obviously much easier of the delegation going to CHOGM. to show that a woman has become pregnant than it is to show which man was involved. 3.50 pm The use of flogging as a punishment is, I would say, in The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth clear breach of the prohibition on Office (Mr Hugo Swire): It is a pleasure to serve under “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment” your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. in the universal declaration of human rights. Are we Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) on securing pushing that point at international level to try to persuade this timely debate. I thank all Members who have taken countries that they should not be using flogging as a part for their thoughtful contributions. I am struck by punishment? Women should have no fear of reporting how many hon. Members went to the Commonwealth crimes against them. They should be confident that parliamentary conference in South Africa. As the Minister they will be treated as victims, rather than being put on with responsibility for the Commonwealth, I find that trial themselves. level of support and interest in the House reassuring. I The last thing that I will mention is CHOGM, which do not have much time to answer all the questions, so if many other hon. Members have discussed. The I do not address their questions, I will get back to hon. Government’s long-standing and repeated position was Members and write to them. that they would make a decision on attendance closer to I was struck by the fact that there is more in the the time. The Minister said during our debate in March debate that unites us than divides us. We all have that no decision had been taken, and I received a similar incredibly serious concerns about human rights in the response in Foreign Office questions in April. The Commonwealth, particularly in Sri Lanka. In the little Government have a real opportunity to use this situation time available, I will try to explain the Government’s as leverage to say to the Sri Lankan Government, “We thought process and how we arrived at the final decision are reviewing whether to come to CHOGM. We are to go to Sri Lanka. 327WH Human Rights (Commonwealth)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Human Rights (Commonwealth) 328WH

Sir James Paice (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Mr Thomas Will the Minister give way? I apologise for the fact that I was not here for the debate. I, too, was in Johannesburg and I want to Mr Swire: I think I know what the hon. Gentleman is endorse what my right hon. Friend the Minister says: going to say and I will answer his question about there is far more that unites us over human rights than CMAG in a minute. divides us. I happened to catch the debate on the screen Although respect for human rights across the earlier, so I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Commonwealth is uneven, we have an opportunity to Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) said that voices from address that, guided by the principles set out in its this country’s delegation were united in support of the charter. As we heard from hon. Members this afternoon, speech from the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry the charter was presented to Parliament in March and it McCarthy) about the importance of human rights, commits members to particularly gay rights. “equality and respect for the protection and promotion of civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights for all, without Mr Swire: The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry discrimination on any grounds”. McCarthy), who speaks for the Opposition, clearly Used effectively, the charter will inform debate and made an excellent speech—I regret to say that I have not provoke change. Circumstances in some member states read it, but I shall certainly do so at the earliest opportunity. may lead some to doubt the strength of that commitment If you will permit me, Mr Gray, before I turn to Sri or the capacity of the Commonwealth to bring about Lanka, I will quickly address some of the questions change. I recognise that valid concerns exist, but we raised by the hon. Member for Rotherham, because the must grasp the opportunity that the charter offers. debate was designed to cover more than that topic. Reform will not happen overnight—I am realistic about that—but I am confident that the Commonwealth can The hon. Lady asked about early forced marriage, deliver. which I completely agree is entirely repugnant. Through our forced marriage unit, a joint Foreign and In the remaining moments, I shall address our attendance Commonwealth Office and Home Department operation, in Sri Lanka, which is an issue we are divided over: we directly support anyone at risk in the UK and British some hon. Members think that we should not go to nationals abroad. We will continue to strengthen protection Sri Lanka and others think that we should. The right for those facing forced marriage. We provide training hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), for professionals to help them to identify potential who is no longer in his place, thinks that we should not. victims and improve awareness of the issues, so that The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole, who is in his those at risk, including children and young people, place, thinks—I think rightly—that we should. It is know where to go for support. I am sure that there is worth pointing out the history. In 2009, Sri Lanka more that we can and should do, but we are entirely at offered to host CHOGM in 2011. At CHOGM in one on how morally repugnant such marriages are and Trinidad and Tobago in 2009, the Heads of Government on female genital mutilation, about which I feel strongly. decided not to accept the offer and decided that Australia People in this country, where alas is it all too pervasive, should host CHOGM in Perth in 2011. They decided are finally taking it seriously. that Sri Lanka should host in 2013, and that decision was reaffirmed in Perth, at which the Commonwealth The hon. Lady also raised the death penalty in Nigeria. representative was a Minister from the previous We are of course appalled that the execution of four Government. There was no widespread support among prisoners on 4 June ended Nigeria’s seven-year moratorium the Heads of Government for a change of location. on the death penalty. We consider the executions to be a serious setback for human rights there. We urge the The hon. Member for Bristol East mentioned the Nigerian Government to halt further executions. It is Commonwealth day debate on 14 March. As she said, worth reiterating the Government’s position: we oppose since the debate the Prime Minister and the Foreign the death penalty in all circumstances. We lose no Secretary and I have decided to attend the meeting. opportunity to make that clear to those who still use it. That is the right thing for the Commonwealth—an organisation we strongly support—which has a positive The hon. Lady raised the proposed anti-homosexuality role to play in promoting freedom, democracy and Bill in Uganda. We have raised our concerns with the human rights. The non-attendance of Her Majesty was Ugandan Government at the highest levels. The Foreign also raised. It is worth pointing out for the record that Secretary raised the issue with Sam Kutesa, the Ugandan Her Majesty, as head of the Commonwealth, will be Foreign Minister, during a bilateral meeting held in the represented by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. margins of the Somalia conference on 7 May. We are in That CHOGM will discuss the crucial issue of what will close contact with civil society groups and, through succeed the millennium development goals in 2015, support for training, advocacy and legal cases, we support following the publication of the report of the high-level efforts to improve human rights in Uganda, including panel, co-chaired by my right hon. Friend the Prime campaigns for LGBT rights. Commonwealth membership Minister. It is important that the Commonwealth articulates is based on shared values of democracy, human rights a clear view that recognises the centrality of Commonwealth and the rule of law, and it is clear that the Commonwealth’s values such as gender equality, good governance and credibility is linked to its ability to uphold and protect the rule of law to the enabling of development. We are those core values. pressing for the discussion of those values to play an The debate has come at a crucial moment. The important part at CHOGM. Commonwealth’s ministerial action group has a new, We must be willing to respond if we think that the stronger mandate to protect standards of governance actions of fellow members do not reflect the values we and human rights—it is time for CMAG to live up to espouse. We will take with us to Colombo a clear that mandate. message that the British Government have given consistently 329WH Human Rights (Commonwealth) 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 330WH in this Parliament, in the UN human rights council and Satellite Information Services in our contacts with the Sri Lankan Government: Sri Lanka must make progress on human rights, reconciliation and a political settlement. A key test of will be the 4pm northern provincial council elections on 21 September, Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): It is a which we are pleased the Commonwealth and the South great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Asian Association for Regional Co-operation have been I thank you, and the Speaker, for allowing me to call invited to observe—a positive step forward. On such this debate on an issue which, although having been issues, the Commonwealth is complementing the work mentioned in the House before, has never been the of other bodies such as the UN. The human rights subject of a debate. Recent events, however, mean that it council passed a resolution in March, co-sponsored by deserves to be aired, and I look forward to the Minister’s the UK, calling for reconciliation and accountability in reply to the points that the debate will raise. I acknowledge Sri Lanka. the work that the Minister and his Department have The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, done on the matter, and I know that he will have to Navi Pillay, visited Sri Lanka last month and expressed speak to colleagues in other Departments about the strong concerns, many of which we and others in the issues that I will raise. Commonwealth share—and those concerns certainly I speak as a friend of India and, indeed, of sport. I seem to be shared by hon. Members this afternoon. want to see India assume its rightful place at the high CHOGM will focus attention sharply on the work yet table of international sport. I sought this debate as to be done to achieve the aims that the Sri Lankan much out of concern for India’s reputation as for the Government themselves have agreed in follow-up to the future of Satellite Information Services—SIS—important report of the Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation though that is. Commission. It will allow Commonwealth Governments As the Minister knows, in October 2010, under to understand better the problems still affecting Sri Lanka notoriously difficult conditions, SIS successfully delivered and consider what support they, and the Commonwealth widely praised world-class broadcast coverage of the collectively, can offer. Delhi Commonwealth games for the global television As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary told market, on behalf of the Indian public service broadcaster, the House on 3 September, we have concerns about Prasar Bharati. The decision to host the games in India media and non-governmental organisation freedom at was made when I was Minister for Sport, and that is CHOGM and have pressed the Sri Lankan Government where my involvement comes from. I was involved in to allow unhindered access. My ministerial colleague, ensuring that we did our best to help the Indian Government my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire to have a successful games. I believe that India was very (Alistair Burt), will reiterate that message when he visits successful, but the events that unfolded were perhaps a the country on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government in bit disappointing. October. The SIS unit that was responsible for negotiating and I was asked why there is no reference to LGBT rights delivering the contract was, in effect, the former BBC in the Commonwealth charter. The charter explicitly outside broadcasts, which SIS had acquired in 2008. states: However, regrettably, it seems that from almost the very “We are implacably opposed to all forms of discrimination, day on which SIS was awarded the contract the company whether rooted in gender, race, colour, creed, political belief or was the subject of sustained hostility from a wide range other grounds.” of interests. Before and during the games, it was the Our view is that the phrases “all forms of discrimination” target of unwarranted accusations and serious, misleading and “or other grounds” cover discrimination against media smears, compounded by what appeared to be at lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, as well as best obstruction, and at worst harassment, from official any other form of discrimination. The way of life of sources, including, oddly, a tax office inspection of the LGBT people is criminalised in over 40 member states, company’s accounts in the middle of the games. That and they live with dreadful prejudice in some of them. should all be seen in the context of the maelstrom of The appalling attitudes towards homosexuality that rumours, accusations and charges of maladministration persists in some Commonwealth countries threaten to that followed the games. undermine the commitment to non-discrimination that One result of the situation has been that although is central to the charter. SIS received partial advance payment, not a single payment has been made since the games concluded, and the company is still seeking in excess of £28 million in unpaid charges, costs and liquidated damages. This is a sorry story, which has overshadowed the games, sadly damaged India’s global reputation and seriously affected a company that has done nothing wrong, and everything right. From the earliest stages of the contract, it was apparent that SIS and the ex-BBC colleagues had been caught in the crossfire between different political and commercial interests, and it also became clear that there were other interests that wished to see those involved in the Commonwealth games, and in the broadcast contract in particular, discredited. It also appears that, at some level, there is a marked reluctance to settle any debts 331WH Satellite Information Services11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Satellite Information Services 332WH

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe] Having been Minister for Sport, I did not think that those sorts of things could happen, but clearly they associated with the games, employing every means— have. legitimate and otherwise—to avoid paying the bills. Indeed, almost every foreign contractor involved in the On 31 July 2012, the CBI investigation filed its report Delhi games has faced similar difficulties in obtaining in court. Although the report is not yet public, it is payment. For SIS, however, the situation has been even known that the CBI has comprehensively dismissed all more damaging than the failure to collect a commercial the allegations made against SIS by Shunglu. The Shunglu debt because the reputation of the company has been committee is now widely discredited. Most encouraging seriously and unfairly attacked, possibly resulting in a in that respect is a recent statement from the Indian loss of future earnings and threatening the very viability Government that describes the central allegations in the of the company. Shunglu report as being based on the wrong premise and the wrong facts. However, under the Indian legal In an attempt to get to the bottom of the problems system, a criminal investigation is not formally closed surrounding the games, the Indian Prime Minister until the CBI court makes its ruling following receipt of commissioned a report from an independent committee, a CBI report and, unfortunately, although a date for headed by Mr V. K. Shunglu, to investigate all the considering the report has been set on no fewer than allegations of wrongdoing and to make recommendations. 15 occasions, each time there has been an adjournment Let me be clear: I think that that was the right thing to to a later date. That is obviously a matter of great do. The Prime Minister was absolutely reasonable and frustration for SIS, and it represents a continuing and proper in holding such an investigation into the serious unfair slur on what, as the hon. Member for South allegations. Sadly, the quality of the committee’s work Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) said, is a fine and highly fell a long way short of what the Prime Minister had respected British company. I do not think that any of us every right to expect. That failure was a betrayal of the in the House would want external involvement in the Indian Government, who were clearly determined to do Indian legal system, but the number of delays must the right thing, and of the Commonwealth games surely create credibility issues for the company. themselves. I think that the real reason SIS has remained unpaid The first report produced by Shunglu concerned the is not the existence of the criminal investigation but broadcast contract, but the manner in which it was because Prasar Bharati has refused settlement, and is prepared almost guaranteed that it would be flawed and locked in dispute with SIS over a range of contractual inaccurate. It was notable that much of the false information matters. As with any project of this scale, understandably published in the report echoed, almost verbatim, the there are areas of disagreement and dispute, but the false allegations that had been planted in the Indian contractual matters were not central to the delivery of media, yet the investigating committee made no attempt the contract. Those peripheral issues are now subject to to approach SIS to verify the information before publishing arbitration, and would have no obvious bearing on the it, apparently choosing instead to rely for its facts on payment of the greater part of the outstanding debt. the very same sources that had been feeding the media. Sadly, there seem to be few signs of any wish to expedite Not only were the “facts” false, but they could easily or facilitate fair payment. Indeed, since the games, SIS have been corrected by looking at the publicly available has continued to be the subject of a range of hostile and verifiable information, or by referring to SIS. initiatives from various agencies and, in the arbitration Most worrying however, was the committee’s process, of a highly aggressive approach by lawyers recommendation that a criminal investigation into SIS acting on behalf of Prasar Bharati. by the Indian Central Bureau of Investigation—the Although few would argue that the core contract was CBI—was needed. Aside from the damage to the reputation performed in anything other than spectacularly of SIS, the existence of the criminal investigation has successful fashion, Prasar Bharati has seized a provided a reason for Prasar Bharati to avoid settling £3 million performance guarantee provided by SIS the outstanding payments. before the games and, arguing that the entire contract should be considered voidable, has even demanded the Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I apologise refund of the partial payments paid to SIS. As I have for arriving a minute or so after the debate began. Does said, the court case is a fig leaf of justification. The real the hon. Gentleman agree that the report puts the area in which the Government might offer assistance is viability of SIS at risk? I am looking for an opportunity in encouraging Prasar Bharati to engage constructively for our Government to stand up for the company. It did in the arbitration process and to settle the issue a great job in India and it does a great job here—my amicably, fairly and soon. local race course, Uttoxeter, relies on its great work. Not only have Prasar Bharati lawyers had SIS in their sights; at times, it has almost seemed as though one Mr Sutcliffe: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for Indian Government agency after another has been lining intervening because this is not about partisan party up to take shots at the firm. I will give one example. In a politics but about a company that did great work for the sensible move to enable the necessary participation by UK in its ambassadorial role to the Commonwealth foreign contractors in the Commonwealth games, the games. We are all pleased with the successes of the Indian Government passed a regulation to allow duty-free Olympics and the Paralympics and what they mean to temporary imports of equipment for the games, but the our great nation. The Government, through the Minister Indian customs authorities have sought to exploit every and his colleagues in the Department for Business, possible loophole to seek payment of duty. One claim Innovation and Skills, need to help the company. SIS against SIS, which was thrown out, suggested that because has been caught up in a situation that I found embarrassing. SIS might have used some of the equipment, it was 333WH Satellite Information Services11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Satellite Information Services 334WH technically second-hand equipment and therefore subject the legal situation, but we need to send a strong message to duty, as second-hand goods were not specifically that the company has been treated badly, which has had mentioned in the Government’s duty waiver. an impact on the reputation of the country, and that the SIS’s achievement in delivering a quality product for matter needs to be resolved as quickly as possible. I have global audiences under the most adverse circumstances—we mentioned the delays arising from the number of times all remember the preparation issues and problems of that it could have been resolved and, quite frankly, that the games—has been applauded by client broadcasters does not show positive input in relation to what the all over the world. In most countries, SIS would be seen Indians should do. as a hero, but instead it has been persecuted as a As hon. Members will know, the Commonwealth criminal. games next year are in Glasgow. Such games are a As I said earlier, I had the honour of serving the massive part of our sporting environment and our country as Minister for Sport when India was awarded sporting legacy. It is great to have the opportunity for the Commonwealth games. I shared the widespread people from the Commonwealth to come together. India view that that was a fine and well-deserved decision, showed its mettle by applying for the games and by, in and I still hold that view. There were many heart-in-mouth the end, holding a successful games. All I ask is that it moments and nerve-jangling worries during the run-up honours its commitments to companies such as SIS and to the games. On one occasion, I met Commonwealth stops the in-fighting, and that the Minister and his games officials who were concerned that, three months colleagues give people working in the sector the necessary before the games, things were not in place. However, the reassurance that we are doing everything we can to good news was that they were, and it was a great resolve the issue. pleasure for me to see the success of the games, as it was I look forward to hearing what the Minister might be to see a company such as SIS working with the Indian able to say today. I understand the problems about his Government and showing national broadcasters that it and other Departments working together, but time has was in an effective partnership. moved on, and we must ensure that he speaks to his It has also been a joy, over the past decade or two, to Indian counterparts to express our concern and find a see India increasingly taking its place at the high tables way to support this great British company, SIS, which of the world: with its economy and as a great, vibrant through no fault of its own, has been put in a ridiculous democracy, it has been playing its part in the world. situation. I hope that he can be positive in his speech, including if there need to be meetings with SIS or Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I raised parliamentary colleagues. As I have said, this is not a this issue in Foreign Office questions just last week. I, partisan matter, but one on which colleagues from all too, want to speak highly of the company. I know many parts of the House want to support the company and to of the executives quite well. They are generous in supporting see a successful end to the problem that it faces. charity events and many other things, on which I commend them. The hon. Gentleman is discussing India’s reputation, 4.17 pm on which I do not wish to cast any doubt, but will he suggest to the Minister that he might look carefully at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, India’s record on such issues, because other companies Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a pleasure to have experienced questionable delays? serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) Mr Sutcliffe: I am grateful for the intervention of the for calling this important debate, and to my hon. Friends hon. Gentleman, whom I will call my hon. Friend: he the Members for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) and I have been involved in many issues concerning and for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) for their contributions. great sports in the world. I would go back to the I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Bradford Olympics and Paralympics in London, which were the South that Delhi was a wonderful host for the 2010 pride of our country, and India should have pride in Commonwealth games, and that Glasgow will be a the fact that it staged the Commonwealth games, but wonderful host for the 2014 games. As we have seen Governments should and must look at the people who with the Commonwealth games and the London 2012 have helped them to achieve such distinction. Olympics and Paralympics, such events leave a lasting I am involved in the issue because I believe that the sporting legacy. That was the case in India and the company has been unfairly treated. We have tried to United Kingdom, and it will be so in Scotland, with push the interests of British companies in the world of those countries enjoying world-class sporting facilities sport in relation to the next Olympics in Rio in 2016. and a renewed interest in sport in all parts of their British companies have brought fantastic expertise to communities. the world of sport, and companies such as SIS should Our relationship with India goes wide and deep, not not, for the reasons that I have outlined, be in this least because of our sporting rivalry. We, of course, beat situation. India in 2012, and then India beat us—or, more accurately, I am not making an attack on India, which is a nation England—in the Champions Trophy. One example of of great resolve that can do fantastic things, but its the legacy for India of the Commonwealth games was reputation is being impugned. I hope to go to India in that it was a springboard for New Delhi to host a the next few weeks, as part of a delegation to promote formula one grand prix. The purpose-built track has sport and its wider benefits, and to have an opportunity received great reviews from all involved in the sport, to speak to the Indian Minister for Sport to try to and it is now a fixture on the formula one calendar. resolve the matter, because the very unfair situation has Unfortunately, concerns have been expressed in this impacted on the country. Having been a Minister, I debate by a senior Minister in the previous Government, know that it is not for Ministers to involve themselves in as well as by senior Conservative Back Benchers, about 335WH Satellite Information Services11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Satellite Information Services 336WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] business. It would be extremely unfortunate if the continued publicity around this case were to give businesses in the problem that SIS faces in relation to receiving either country the impression that it is difficult to trade. payments for goods and services following the Commonwealth games. As the hon. Member for Bradford Mr Sutcliffe: The point is India’s reputation in the South has said, SIS is a highly reputable and successful sporting world. As a former Sports Minister, I recognise British company that employs almost 1,000 people and that sport is high-profile. It covers the back pages and has a multi-million-pound turnover. sometimes the front pages of our newspapers. India has It is therefore right and proper that the Government a role to play because of the magnificence of Indian should seek to assist SIS in relation to its problems, and sport. None the less, this matter will damage the reputation we have very much been engaged with the issue. Ministers, of Indian sport if it does not get resolved. as well as two high commissioners in Delhi, have raised the matter a number of times with our Indian counterparts. Mr Vaizey: I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I The Business Secretary and the Minister for Trade and am sure that anyone who knows about his experience as Investment have also raised it, as have Foreign and a successful Sports Minister under the previous Commonwealth Office Ministers. Indeed I, too, have Government, and his continued engagement in sport raised the matter, and I intend to write to the Indian and sporting issues, will take those words with the Minister to raise it again. I understand that the Minister seriousness that they deserve. As I have said, we have a for the Cabinet Office is in Delhi tomorrow and also fantastic relationship with India, and it is one we want hopes to raise it. There is no shortage of Ministers to build on. We want good trading relationships. We raising this issue of concern. want to remain one of the top destinations for Indian I hope that our good friends in the Indian Government, foreign direct investment, and we want to increase the with whom we work on a whole range of issues, will business that we do with India. It is important to have noted our concerns and this important debate. remind the Chamber that UK companies can, and do, Matters of little import are rarely raised in the House, succeed in India. The Prime Minister went to India in and it is a measure of how important the British Parliament February. He took with him more than 100 businesses, takes this issue that we are having this debate today. We including 30 small and medium-sized enterprises, are determined to engage with the Indian Government demonstrating our continued commitment to do business on it until it is resolved. I have met representatives of with India. SIS Live and I have said that I am happy to help where I We want to double our bilateral trade by 2015 to can. I remain in discussions with the company. £23 billion. Despite tough global economic conditions, The hon. Member for Bradford South set out with it was already worth more than £15 billion in 2012. great clarity the events that have led to the position that India is the fifth largest foreign investor in our country we are in today. It is absolutely right and proper that and we are the third largest foreign investor in India, India should take seriously any allegations of corruption. with more than 400 companies based there. It is also absolutely right and proper that those allegations Jaguar Land Rover has recently announced the creation should be thoroughly investigated, which is indeed what of 1,700 jobs as part of a £1.5 billion investment, which has happened. An investigation was called, and it was shows just what a strong British-Indian partnership can undertaken by the Central Bureau of Investigation. achieve. Tata Consultancy Services has set up a delivery Although the report has not yet been published, it is centre in Liverpool, and Ashok Leyland has established pretty clear what the findings are. They are that no its first overseas technical research and development evidence of wrongdoing has been found in the SIS case. centre in Warwickshire. Hinduja Global Solutions has It is also the case, as we would expect, that all those expanded its TalkTalk operation in Preston. All such alleged to have been involved in instances of bribery or developments show the UK as a great place for Indian corruption have consistently and strenuously denied it. companies. The CBI report came out at the end of July—not at InterContinental Hotels is to expand in India by the end of July this year, but at the end of July last year, building 12 new hotels. Hampshire-based Serco has so over a year ago. Again, it is absolutely right and announced a partnership with ICICI Bank, India’s proper that the judicial process should take its course. It leading private sector bank, to service payment solutions would be unconscionable for the British Government to for the Indian transportation industry jointly. There is be seen to attempt to interfere in any shape or form. the potential to do so much more. The UK excels in None the less, we note that the proceedings have been technology and expertise, which will meet India’s needs adjourned some 15 times, and we very much hope that as it develops, and India offers complementary capabilities they can come to their logical conclusion. As the hon. and innovations. As a Government, we are here to help Gentleman said, SIS has been paid for some of its British companies invest in India and Indian companies work, but is still owned some £12 million—40% of its invest in the UK through the activities of UK Trade & contract—as well as the £3 million bond that has been Investment. cashed in, to which he referred. Later this month, the Minister for Trade and Investment To be blunt, if I were to choose to debate issues to do will open India’s first British business centre in Delhi, with India and our trade with it, I would want to spend headed by the UK India Business Council and supported this half-hour debating the fantastic commercial ties by British business groups. There is a plan to open a that the UK has with India, which are expanding and series of centres across the major high-growth cities, growing all the time. The Indian economy has remained forming a pan-India network by 2017, which will go a vibrant even through the economic downturn, and India significant way to helping us do even more business is, and should be, a fantastic place in which to do together. 337WH Satellite Information Services 11 SEPTEMBER 2013 338WH

It is important to continue to improve the bilateral Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration) business environment and to remove obstacles so that more business can be done. We are working towards that with the help of the revitalised Joint Economic and 4.29 pm Trade Committee, which was set up by Prime Ministers Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): It is a pleasure to from both countries in 2010. The CEO forum led by serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. It is also a Peter Sands and Ratan Tata has reported back with its pleasure that my right hon. Friend the Minister will recommendations of how we can capitalise on opportunities respond to the debate, because he is one of the few to increase trade and investment. Ministers whom I have yet to lobby directly on this There is also the prospect of an EU-India free trade issue. His colleague in the Department for Communities agreement, which would made a huge contribution to and Local Government, the Under-Secretary of State further liberalisation, and we strongly support the for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend conclusion of such an ambitious deal. This is a truly the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), cross-Government effort across Departments. Our accepted my invitation to visit Pendle back in November relationship with India goes much wider than just trade 2012, as did his other DCLG colleague, the Minister for and investment. We co-operate on a huge range of Housing, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and issues, including education, science and research, climate Stortford (Mr Prisk), in June this year. My right hon. change, international development, defence, security, Friend is welcome to visit Pendle any time. international issues and of course culture, which is my I am grateful for the opportunity to initiate this own subject area. We want more UK companies doing debate on regeneration in Brierfield and Nelson. First, I business in India, and we want more Indian companies will set out the background for the debate and outline investing in the UK, but we know that there are challenges. some of the successes that we have had to date. Then I Bilateral business is good for both of us, and we want will address some of the challenges that we still face in the UK to be India’s partner of choice. the area: empty homes, Brierfield Mill and assisted area Nevertheless, we will remain engaged, closely, with status. the SIS Live case. We want a great British company to The towns of Brierfield and Nelson contain some of have its difficulties resolved in India. As I have said the most deprived wards within Pendle. There are before, it is absolutely right and proper that the Indian regeneration challenges in other parts of Pendle, such Government should wish to investigate any allegations as in the town of Colne, where I live. However, the of corruption. Given the findings of that investigation, problems in Brierfield and Nelson are the most acute in we hope that there will be a speedy conclusion to the the area and are therefore the focus of the debate. judicial proceedings and that, while we wait for that Pendle is ranked the 41st most deprived local authority speedy conclusion, some kind of commercial negotiation in England out of 326, and both Brierfield and Nelson can take place between the respective parties to see have wards that rank in the top 200 most deprived whether a conclusion can be put on the table for when wards in the country. The percentage of people in those proceedings come to their appropriate end. Pendle who have never worked stands at 8.33%, which is above the nationwide average of 5.61%. However, the percentage in Brierfield is significantly above the percentage in Pendle—with nearly 15% of people in Brierfield having never worked—and in some wards in Nelson, such as Bradley, the percentage is 17%, and the percentage in Whitefield is 25%. That translates into very high numbers of people claiming out-of-work benefits and low educational attainment and aspiration. That situation contrasts sharply with the growth opportunities in the borough. Pendle as a whole has one of the highest proportions of people engaged in manufacturing of any part of the country. About 27% of Pendle jobs are still in manufacturing, compared with a national rate of just 10%. Pendle employers include companies in a dynamic aerospace sector, such as Rolls-Royce, as well as companies in the nuclear supply chain, such as Graham Engineering. Pendle has a large number of the fastest growing companies in Lancashire and the wider north-west, and they are powering growth opportunities in the area. The Prime Minister visited one such company, Hope Technology, earlier this year. Those companies received a significant boost in July, when the Government agreed with the arguments that I and others were making and approved £5 million in additional business support, via the regional growth fund, to help our local mid-sized manufacturers to expand. That should help to create more than 500 new jobs, safeguard a further 250 jobs and bring more than £20 million of private sector investment into the area. 339WH Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration) 340WH

[Andrew Stephenson] Pendle. The Minister will recall the Westminster Hall debate that he responded to in July, which I also attended, Since 2010, we have also seen the number of apprenticeships when the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) in Pendle double, while unemployment has fallen set out some of the challenges that he faced in his significantly. The latest unemployment figures, published constituency. Many of the root causes of the problems this morning, show that the unemployment rate in in Brierfield and Nelson are very similar to those in Pendle is now just 4.3%, which is well below the national Hyndburn and other parts of east Lancashire. However, average. in Pendle a combination of factors and the hard work In addition, significant investment has been made of Pendle borough council, which is jointly run by the and programmes undertaken by the council and central Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, have led to some Government that has helped to boost the area. The genuine progress during the past three years. The number reopening of Manchester road to traffic through Nelson of empty homes in the borough has fallen from 1,847 in town centre in 2011, along with associated street scene 2010 to 1,414 in July this year—a reduction of almost a improvements, has given the town a genuine boost, as quarter, and I expect the number to be even lower by the has the Government’s decision to designate Nelson in end of this year. May 2012 as one of the first 12 Portas pilot towns in the We now have the lowest number of empty homes in country. That saw Nelson receive £100,000 to try new the area for some time, and that significant reduction—made schemes to attempt to bring people back into the town under this Government—is very welcome. However, centre, and even led to a visit from the retail guru Mary things are in danger of stalling. The largest provider of Portas herself. Crucially, that cash was in addition to social housing in Pendle is the Together Housing Group, £100,000 that Pendle received via the high street innovation which is spending more than £10 million to bring 300 empty fund. For young people in Nelson, a new state-of-the-art homes across Pennine Lancashire back into use, by youth zone on Leeds road was opened by my hon. offering a purchase and repair option and a lease and Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham repair option. More than £3 million of that investment (Tim Loughton) in October 2011, in his then role as has come from the Government, via the Homes and Children’s Minister. Communities Agency, and it could have huge benefits Pendle council has invested £1.2 million in two new for the towns of Brierfield and Nelson. To comply with sports pavilions in the area: one at Bullholme in Barrowford the HCA’s funding guidelines, the Together Housing and one at Edge End in Nelson. In August, the area Group is required to register a lease with the Land secured £150,000 of funding from Sport England for Registry. However, where a property has a mortgage the new Steven Burke Sports Hub, named after the gold against it, a housing association requires the consent of medal-winning cyclist from the town of Colne. Added the lender to register the title. This is a big stumbling to contributions from other sources, £308,000 will now block, as lenders are refusing to do that simply because be invested in the area around Swinden playing fields in the scheme does not comply with the standard buy-to-let Nelson, to create a cycle track and to improve sporting terms and conditions. Despite attempts to open dialogue facilities. Plans to expand the role of Pendle community with lenders, the Together Housing Group is still being hospital—investment for which was secured by the last refused by them repeatedly. Conservative MP for Pendle, for facilities that ideally I wrote to my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing would be located in Nelson town centre—are also about this issue recently, and I would appreciate it if my progressing well. Nelson has benefited from Heritage right hon. Friend the Minister could address this challenge Lottery Fund money to restore the old library on Booth in his response to the debate. Sadly, without a resolution, street and to improve Marsden park. Also, the long-standing much of the money will remain unspent and many of problem of a lack of primary school places has finally the 300 empty homes that I have mentioned will remain been addressed by the decision to build two brand new boarded up. schools—Whitefield infants school, where I am a school governor, and St Paul’s primary school—at a combined I will now turn to Brierfield mill. The Government cost of £14.1 million. gave Pendle council a £1.5 million grant, via the HCA, to buy Brierfield mill in March 2012. Formerly, it was Similar big investments can be seen in the smaller the home of a major local employer, Smith and Nephew. town of Brierfield, with the Lob Lane mill redevelopment Under the previous Government, this building complex providing new homes on a major derelict site. My hon. was bought by a Birmingham-based Islamic charity, Friend the Minister for Housing was able to visit that which had planned to convert the site into a 5,000-place site earlier this year. The library also benefited from a girls boarding school. The scale of that project would £500,000 face-lift in 2012, thanks to the then Conservative- have been disproportionate to the rest of the local area; led county council. Brierfield is also home to Pendle’s there would have been more people in the school than in first primary academy. Walter Street primary school, a the town of Brierfield itself. Now in public ownership, school in special measures that had continually failed to this employment site, which covers 400,000 square feet improve, has become an academy and is now called and is located next to the M65 motorway and Brierfield Pendle primary academy. Although we are still in the railway station, has the potential to be a key driver of very early days of this transition, after working with the jobs and growth. The project offers the opportunity to outstanding Nelson and Colne college the school’s results provide more than 500 jobs in a mixed-use development, in June showed a significant improvement in reading, comprising work spaces and enterprise areas in leisure, writing and maths. a possible hotel development and residential uses. However, A huge amount of investment and positive change is bringing this major grade II listed building back into clearly being made under the current Government, but I use in such a deprived part of the borough will require will now turn to some of the challenges that we still face some public funding, in addition to private sector in the area. Empty homes remain a real problem in investment. 341WH Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration) 342WH

In June, my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing public finances. In Brierfield and Nelson, most of the kindly accepted my invitation to visit Brierfield mill. I credit for that lies with the current leader of Pendle have also met another DCLG Minister, Baroness Hanham, borough council, Councillor Joe Cooney, his predecessor to discuss the council’s European regional development Councillor Mike Blomeley and the excellent officers at fund bid. Pendle council submitted an ERDF funding the council. Rather than simply throwing money at bid to the DCLG for a managed workspace scheme problems, the local authorities and other bodies have with a total cost of some £3 million. The bid was for had to work innovatively to deliver positive outcomes. approximately £1.5 million of ERDF to be matched by However, there is clearly still significant potential for £1.5 million from the council’s joint venture company growth in Pendle, and I hope that the Minister can with the private sector, which is called Pearl2. However, support our area’s ambitions. when assessing the bid the Department raised concerns about procurement and state aid rules, and there have been long negotiations over the past few months. Although 4.43 pm officials have been helpful, it looks as though the bid will need to be scaled back to meet those requirements, TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities so much so that continuing with the bid appears not to and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): It is a great be viable. I would appreciate the Minister committing pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I to look into the council’s ERDF bid and providing any congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle assistance that he can. (Andrew Stephenson) on securing the debate, on the forceful way he has drawn the Government’s attention Another equally tricky issue relating to Brierfield mill to the concerns in his area and on his success in his is securing funding to acquire and improve land at lobbying endeavours to date. I understand the challenges either side of the site to make it more attractive to that he has raised and I will address them as best I can. private sector investors. A key part of that would be a Before I do that, however, I thought it would be new access road into the site from the M65, which the helpful to put into context the Government’s work to architects and council believe to be critical to the project’s help areas such as Pendle drive forward better growth success. Although that would probably cost in the region and regeneration. We are firmly of the view that local of £1.5 million, it would help unlock the site’s potential leaders are best placed to understand their local economies and draw interest from private sector investors and be a and the needs of their areas, and that is why, as we have sensible use of taxpayers’ money. Sadly, in his response developed our policies, we have done all we can to to Pendle council on 20 August, the Minister for Housing reform the system, putting the levers and incentives in said that all the funding streams that could help to pay the hands of local leaders and local communities. It is for it are fully committed. Again, I would appreciate also why we have established local enterprise partnerships, any thoughts the Minister has on how we could progress bringing business and local authority leaders together. the issue. There are barriers in freeing up these grant We have also established enterprise zones, worked with opportunities for Brierfield mill, and I simply ask the the major conurbations through the city deal programme Minister to assist where he can. and introduced a £750 million Growing Places fund at Pendle council’s submission to the current consultation the local enterprise partnership level. put forward four wards to be granted assisted area We have supported small businesses through the small status: Brierfield ward, the Bradley ward of Nelson and business rate relief scheme and decentralised control the neighbouring wards of Old Laund Booth and over resources, for example by removing many of the Barrowford, which contain high rates of manufacturing ring fences on local authority budgets. We have rewarded jobs. The proposed wards are all within the M65 corridor, places that deliver growth through, for example, the which is highlighted in the Pennine Lancashire investment new homes bonus and the business rate retention scheme. plan as a key economic growth corridor. The corridor We recognise in doing that how important regeneration has the potential to generate around 15,000 new jobs sites such as Brierfield mill and Nelson are to Pendle’s and 2,300 new houses. Concentrating assisted area status local economy. along that growth corridor, which runs through Brierfield I am delighted that I will be added to my hon. and Nelson, will help to boost regeneration and growth. Friend’s long list of Ministers within the Department The council believes that assisted area status will for Communities and Local Government whom he has provide significant opportunities for business growth lobbied on these issues. He referred to his lobbying of and development, which will act as a catalyst in bringing the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and high-quality jobs to the deprived areas within the wards Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for and the wider deprived areas of Pendle. There are Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis); the visit that he had further eligible wards in Pendle, but the council consider from the Minister for Housing, my hon. Friend the that those four have the greatest potential to utilise the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk); and the benefits of assisted area status, which will have a positive conversations that he has had with my noble Friend impact on the local economy and assist with regeneration. Baroness Hanham. As a result of that lobbying, and I appreciate that assisted area status and the consultation that of the excellent local council of my hon. Friend the is a matter for Business, Innovation and Skills Ministers, Member for Pendle, we have already seen some real but I urge the Minister to join me in lobbying them on successes, which bear repetition. As he rightly said, he Pendle’s behalf, as a positive outcome would have significant has secured £100,000 for the development of Nelson positive effects on regeneration and growth. high street as part of the Portas pilots, and he described to us the excellent use to which those funds are being In conclusion, I am greatly encouraged by much of put. A further £100,000 has come from the high street what has been achieved by the coalition Government innovation fund to provide yet more help in areas with over recent years, particularly at a time of very tight the highest empty property rates. 343WH Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration) 344WH

[Mr Don Foster] in the case he describes: many successful empty homes schemes are predicated on councils and other providers Pendle has also received two thirds of a million leasing the empty homes from their owners, which has pounds of new homes bonus money, which has already increased the number of private sector leasing schemes been put to excellent use in helping first-time buyers such as the LinkedUp empty homes scheme operated obtain mortgages by providing guarantees. Pendle has by Together Housing Group. received £2.3 million of direct funding to bring 227 empty Having recently been made aware of the particular homes back into use by March 2015, as my hon. Friend challenge that my hon. Friend describes, the officials in said. Perhaps most significantly in the context of this my Department are already seeking a solution. Our debate, Pendle has already received £1.58 million of attention has also been drawn to that challenge by the funding from the Government through the Homes and Empty Homes Network. It transpires that some mortgage Communities Agency to buy Brierfield mill, securing lenders are not agreeing to their borrowers entering into the site for development when it might otherwise have the lease arrangements on which the empty homes been sold off for piecemeal developments. I must also programme is based, which I find incredibly surprising refer to his successful lobbying of the Government that because such private sector leasing schemes will not led to the announcement of £5 million of business only provide a regular rental income for the owners to support through the regional growth fund. help them repay their mortgage but improve the value As my hon. Friend rightly said, there are still a and condition of the asset. Derelict properties sitting on number of challenges, with much to do and problems to the asset books of mortgage companies are a problem be overcome. I must point out that there is no hidden not only for the mortgage company but for the local pot of cash that I can dip into to help solve some of community. Such properties become a magnet for rats those problems. As he has already been told by my hon. and squatters, driving other local residents away. Friends in the Department, the funding streams are I hope mortgage lenders will look at the scheme already fully committed, but that does not mean that we rather more favourably that they have to date. To try to cannot provide further assistance in some form. I achieve that, my officials have been working closely particularly encourage him to ensure that his local with the Empty Homes Network and the Council of council is working as closely as it can with the Lancashire Mortgage Lenders to highlight to lenders the real benefits local enterprise partnership. of entering the scheme. I am pleased to tell my hon. My hon. Friend referred to the bid for assisted area Friend that the Council of Mortgage Lenders is now status. He has rightly said that if that is granted, it will engaging directly and closely with us on that issue, and make the area eligible to receive regional aid, typically we hope to persuade it to support the programme and in the form of capital investment in business. I am persuade its members to engage much more actively in pleased to hear that the council is working actively to it. Those discussions are ongoing, and I cannot say that take up the opportunity of applying for assisted area there has been a positive outcome, but successful discussions status for four wards in his area. He is well aware that are taking place. Additionally, the Empty Homes Network we are at an early stage of the process. Stage 1 of the is now going to produce a guide designed to help consultation phase closes on 30 September. Returns lenders and providers find suitable solutions to the from that first phase will inform the development of a problem. I am pleased that we are making some progress, draft assisted areas map, which will be drawn up by the and I congratulate my hon. Friend on his work to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills for ensure that the issue is being addressed in the way that stage 2 of the consultation in the winter. Following it is. ministerial agreement, the map will then be submitted I am also aware of the discussions that have taken to the European Commission for clearance before coming place between the borough council, the Homes and into effect on 1 July 2014. Communities Agency and my Department on the further Although there is still a way to go, I seriously urge the development issues around Brierfield mill. We will continue council to work closely with the local enterprise partnership, to do all we can while bearing in mind that there is no because the LEPs, with their clear strategic overview of hidden pot of cash that I can find. My hon. Friend their area’s economic priorities, will influence decisions particularly referred to the European regional development on assisted area status significantly. It is crucial that fund bid related to the mill, on which there have been Pendle influences the LEP’s thinking. By raising the difficult procurement and state aid issues. Following issue so publicly today, my hon. Friend has already those discussions, we have ring-fenced the ERDF funds helped the cause, for which I congratulate him. for the project, and we are now awaiting a further application from the council. Provided the application I am particularly concerned to hear about some of addresses the issues in the way that we have advised, I the problems being faced in relation to the empty homes am reasonably confident that we will be able to approve programme, which my hon. Friend has rightly highlighted. the bid. We have provided £235 million of direct funding to help local authorities, housing associations and community On the link road, there are no funds available within groups address the most problematic empty homes, the Department to assist my hon. Friend. I am sure he which would not otherwise be brought back into use. will be active in lobbying other Departments, and I am As he rightly says, Pendle has received £2.3 million of sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department that funding to bring 227 empty homes back into use by for Transport will now be looking forward to having March 2015. The council and registered providers are further discussions with him. working incredibly hard to address those empty homes, I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work he and his as the reduction in the number of empty homes in council have done in making huge strides on the Pendle is already proving. They have already had great regeneration of the area. He has made an important success, but as he has pointed out, there is a complication contribution to that work, and I thank him for continuing 345WH Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration)11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration) 346WH to raise the issue, for bringing the problems to us and 4.56 pm for ensuring that we are working collectively for the benefit of the people who live in his constituency. Sitting adjourned. Question put and agreed to.

49WS Written Statements11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Statements 50WS

and teachers to get behind the scenes of the manufacturing Written Statements industry and see first hand the opportunities available. We are also publishing an economic analysis of key Wednesday 11 September 2013 themes cutting across our sector strategies. This new paper, published to coincide with the conference, brings together insights from the analysis underpinning the sector strategies using the four themes of the conference— BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS “Exports, Innovation, Skills and Supply Chains”. This paper will be placed in the House Library. Industrial Strategy Conference Capital for Enterprise Ltd The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable): In September last year, I set out The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation the Government’s new industrial strategy for the UK. and Skills (Michael Fallon): Mark Prisk (then Minister Our industrial strategy is a long-term, whole of Government of State for Business and Enterprise) presented a ministerial approach with partnership with industry at its heart. written statement to the House on 17 July 2012, Official The publication of the last of our 11 sector strategies in Report, column 116WS, which announced the triennial August represents an important milestone in our work. review of Capital for Enterprise. These strategies set out a vision shared by business and Government for these sectors, building on existing strengths Since then the Secretary of State has announced the and give businesses the confidence they need to invest creation of a business bank which will bring together, and grow. review and rationalise existing Government schemes aimed at supporting access to finance for businesses On September 11, the Government and the under a single organisation, in order to increase access Confederation of British Industry will be jointly hosting to and awareness of these interventions. The review was an industrial strategy conference at Warwick university therefore put on hold until it was clear how Capital for to set out the next steps industrial strategy over the next Enterprise Ltd would fit with the business bank. year and beyond. At the conference, we will also be announcing the following: The strategy update “Building the Business Bank” which the Secretary of State published on the 21 March Round 2 of the Employer Ownership Pilot—Government want to give employers more direct control of how public confirmed that the business bank organisation will bring funding for vocational skills is spent and are testing this together Capital for Enterprise Ltd, key policy teams in through the employer ownership pilot. Round 1 of the BIS and new expertise from the private sector. programme is funding 36 projects with £102 million of Given that Capital for Enterprise Ltd will not continue Government funding matched by £108 million of private in its current form, I have decided not to complete the investment. Under round 2 of the project, 39 bids have triennial review of Capital for Enterprise Ltd. progressed to the next phase and we will be announcing the first wave of these bids. Round 3 of the Advanced Manufacturing Supply Chain Initiative (AMSCI)—The initiative was first established in December HOME DEPARTMENT 2011 to help existing UK supply chains grow and achieve world- class standards, while encouraging major new suppliers to come and manufacture here in Britain. The autumn statement 2012 provided an additional £120 million for two Daniel Morgan additional funding rounds of AMSCI—rounds 3 and 4—taking the total Government contribution to this scheme to up to £245 million. Subject to due diligence five supply chain The Secretary of State for the Home Department projects from the aerospace, chemicals, electronics and life (Mrs Theresa May): Further to my statement of 10 May sciences sectors will be receiving over £115 million of joint 2013, Official Report, column 17WS, announcing the public and private sector investment and we expect their creation of the Daniel Morgan independent panel, I projects to create and safeguard over 1,500 jobs. can today announce that the chair, Sir Stanley Burnton, £150 million investment in Green Construction projects—£60 will be joined on the panel by the following panel million is being invested through the Technology Strategy members: Board to support the UK construction industry in designing and developing more energy efficient buildings. Government Silvia Casale—criminologist and independent expert for the expect the projects to attract an additional £60 million of Council of Europe. industry investment and £30 million extra funding from Michael Kellett—former police officer (Lancashire constabulary). across Government. The construction industry contributes Graham Smith—academic and senior researcher at the university almost £90 billion to the UK economy and supports around of Manchester. 3 million jobs. The work of the independent panel is set out in the The See Inside Manufacturing programme will be expanded from three to 10 sectors, with seven new industries joining full terms of reference which were placed in the Library automotive, aerospace, and food and drink. The seven new of the House in May 2013. These provide that the panel sectors include construction, offshore wind and the life will seek to complete its work within 12 months of the sciences. See Inside Manufacturing enables young people documentation being made available.

21P Petitions11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Petitions 22P

More generally in Wales the number of Army Reserve Petitions units will increase from six to seven, while sub-units will reduce from 22 to 19, located across 19 sites, and Wednesday 11 September 2013 housing an Army Reserve liability of around 1,800. The 19 sites in Wales at which Army Reserves will be OBSERVATIONS based are: Morgan Street TAC, Llandaf TAC and Maindy Street TAC in Cardiff, Dalton VC TAC, DEFENCE Haverfordwest, Cwrt-Y-Gollen TAC, Crickhowell, Territorial Army Centre (Caernarfon) Carmarthen TAC, Glamorgan Street TAC, The Grange The Petition of the people of Caernarfon and the TAC and Morfa TAC in Swansea, Abertillery TAC, surrounding district, Bridgend TAC, Prestatyn TAC, Queensferry TAC, Pontypridd TAC, The Castle in Monmouth, Cwmbran Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to the closure TAC and Raglan Barracks TAC in Newport. of the Territorial Army Centre at Caernarfon and draws the House’s attention to the long and unique tradition Further work will be undertaken to better define how of service in the forces by people from the community; those sites being vacated by the Army Reserve, such as further notes that the Caernarfon centre has an important Caernarfon TAC, will be managed in the future and role in recruitment given that it serves a very large rural how retained sites will be developed to meet the Army’s area, that similar facilities will not easily be available future needs. elsewhere. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to retain the current usage of the site and explore complementary uses so TRANSPORT that it can be further developed as an important and valued strategic resource. West Coast Rail Links With London And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Hywel The Petition of residents of Shrewsbury and Shropshire, Williams, Official Report, 16 July 2013; Vol. 566, Declares that the Petitioners are without a direct rail c. 1060.] [P001209] service to London from anywhere in the county, with Observations from the Secretary of State for Defence: Shrewsbury being the only mainland county town in The issue referred to relates to the withdrawal of the England without such a service which is of real detriment Army Reserve from Caernarfon Territorial Army Centre to businesses and individuals travelling to the capital. (TAC) under the Future Reserve 2020 changes which I The Petitioners therefore request that the House of announced on 3 July 2013, Official Report, columns Commons urge the Department of Transport and Office 923-947. The announcement covered the final part of for Rail regulation to work with Network Rail and the the Army’s plan for its future force structure and set out train operators to improve services on the west coast the structure and future locations for the Army Reserve. mainline and subsequently ensure a regular and direct These changes followed much detailed work by the service from Shrewsbury to London to be established as Army in order to restructure the Army Reserve to soon as possible. maximise the military capability required of it as part of an integrated force by 2018. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Daniel Decisions on how to rebalance the Army reserve Kawczynski, Official Report, 5 September 2013; Vol. 567, structure have been based on military judgment taking c. 579 .] account of the capabilities required of the future integrated [P001218] Army. The Army’s plan will result in the merger or Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: closure of some units, as well as the raising of some new The Department continues to strongly support the units in order to ensure that they can be paired with introduction of the new direct service from London regular counterparts. The Army will also consolidate Euston to Shrewsbury. The Department recognises the some small sub-units, most of which are poorly recruited, very strong local support for the introduction of this to enable better Regular-Reserve unit pairing. This will new service. The pressure remains on Network Rail to improve access to training facilities and equipment; improve performance and also to work closely with make better use of full-time manpower and optimise Virgin Trains and the Office of Rail Regulation on this opportunities for recruitment. These changes, which important matter. will impact on the current basing laydown of the Army Reserve, are expected to be complete by 2016. I continue to take a very close interest in this matter Caernarfon Territorial Army Centre is home to a and I have encouraged the rail industry to work together Platoon of D Company 3 Royal Welsh who will be to secure the introduction of this new and important moving to Colwyn Bay, a distance of 30 miles. Whilst it service to Shrewsbury. I understand that Virgin Trains is understood that the vacation of Caernarfon TAC will are making an application for the access rights to operate come as a disappointment to those serving there, most this service from May 2014. of them live closer to Colwyn Bay than they do to The Petitioners may also wish to share their views Caernarfon. We therefore expect the majority of personnel with Network Rail, the Office of Rail Regulation and to continue to serve at the Colwyn Bay TAC. Virgin Trains.

703W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 704W Written Answers to Average Wages 13. Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Scotland what change there has been in the level of average wages in Scotland since May 2010. [900195]

Wednesday 11 September 2013 David Mundell: According to official statistics, in 2012 the median gross annual full time earnings in Scotland was £25,792, up from £25,205 in 2010. Departmental Cost Savings SCOTLAND 14. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Economy Scotland what amount of administrative cost savings was made by his Department in 2012-13; and what 8. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for amount of savings are planned to be made in 2013-14. Scotland what recent discussions he has had with [900196] Ministers of the Scottish Government on Scotland’s future economic prospects. [900190] David Mundell: The Scotland Office and Office of the Advocate General had an administrative cost underspend Michael Moore: I regularly meet with Scottish of £220,000 in 2012-13. During 2013-14 the offices have Government Ministers at events, such as the Scottish reduced travel costs and the costs of running office employability forum last week, where we discuss economic accommodation in Edinburgh and London and we also issues. expect to show an underspend at year end. This Government recognise the challenges faced by families and businesses, and is focusing on moving the economy from rescue to recovery. WALES Staff State Pension Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 9. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for how many posts in his Department have been relocated Scotland what estimate his Department has made of from London to each other region in each of the last 10 the proportion of people in Scotland in receipt of the years. [168285] state pension compared to the rest of the UK. [900191] Stephen Crabb: The Wales Office has one office in David Mundell: As of June 2013 pensioners make up London and one in Cardiff. When recruiting, we consider 19.9% of the population in Scotland compared to 19.4% whether we have a preferred location for the post being In the rest of the UK. advertised. In many cases a post may be based in either By 2050 this gap will have increased over four-fold of our offices, and many staff work from both sites. with Scotland’s pensioners making up 23.6% of its population compared with 21.4% In the rest of the UK. NORTHERN IRELAND Businesses: UK Benefits Staff

11. John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what assessment his Department has made of Northern Ireland how many posts in her Department the value to businesses in Scotland of being part of the have been relocated from London to each other region UK. [900193] in each of the last 10 years. [168282] Michael Moore: All papers in the Scotland analysis Mrs Villiers: Following the devolution of policing programme underline the value to business of Scotland and justice functions on 12 April 2010, and subsequent being part of the UK. Our fourth paper, published in reconfiguration of the Northern Ireland Office, my July, set out the benefits to business of being part of the Department does not hold figures for the periods prior UK’s domestic single market, and the shared framework to 2010; attempting to obtain them would incur which underpins this. disproportionate cost. No posts have been relocated from London to other 15. Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for regions since 2010. Scotland what assessment his Department has made of the value to businesses in Scotland of being part of the UK. [900197] TRANSPORT Michael Moore: All papers in the Scotland analysis Staff programme underline the value to business of Scotland of being part of the UK. Our fourth paper, published in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport July, set out the benefits to business of being part of the how many posts in his Department have been relocated UK’s domestic single market, and the shared framework from London to each other region in each of the last which underpins this. 10 years. [168284] 705W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 706W

Norman Baker: The Department does not maintain a CPS conditional cautions 1 April 2013 to 6 September 2013 central record of the posts which have moved outside of Conditional cautions London. The information requested can only be provided Pre-charge Post-charge at disproportionate cost. Gloucestershire 3 5 Greater Manchester 4 14 Gwent 1 3 ATTORNEY-GENERAL Hampshire and IOW 73 9 Police Cautions Hertfordshire 3 4 Humberside 6 12 Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how Kent 10 13 many conditional cautions have been issued by police Lancashire 14 8 forces in England and Wales since 2013; and for what Leicestershire 4 7 offence each such caution was issued. [168053] Lincolnshire 1 5 London 18 35 The Solicitor-General: The following Crown Prosecution Merseyside 14 47 Service (CPS) data show the total number of conditional Norfolk 4 16 cautions that were issued following consideration by the Northamptonshire 2 6 CPS during the period from 1 April 2013 to 6 September Northumbria 3 6 2013 for each police force area. Further tables containing North W ales 17 5 a detailed breakdown of data by offence category have North Yorkshire 6 6 been placed in the Library of the House. The data Nottinghamshire 3 5 updates a previous response provided on 21 May 2013 South Wales 11 9 that gave details of the number of conditional cautions South Yorkshire 1 5 issued for the last five years covering the period to Staffordshire 5 3 31 March 2013. Suffolk 1 3 The data showing the number of conditional cautions Surrey 5 2 issued is taken from defendant based data and not the Sussex 1 3 number of offences committed. The total number of Thames Valley 14 11 cautions issued will therefore differ from that noted in Warwickshire 0 1 the breakdown of offence category. West Mercia 1 6 Since 8 April 2013, the police have been able to issue a West Midlands 5 2 conditional caution without reference to the CPS in all West Yorkshire 6 12 categories of offences except for indictable only offences Wiltshire 1 2 and those categorised as hate crime or domestic violence. As a result of these revised arrangements, data for Redundancy Pay conditional cautions issued after 8 April by the police will be reported under the official statistics relating to Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how crime and policing, maintained by the Home Office and much the Crown Prosecution Service has spent on the official statistics relating to sentencing, criminal severance costs for departing members of staff in each court proceedings, offenders brought to justice, the year since 2010-11. [168051] courts and the judiciary issued by the Ministry of Justice. The Solicitor-General: The amount the Crown The CPS data will only record those cases where Prosecution Service has spent on severance costs for following a request for Charging advice, the CPS determined departing staff in each year since 2010-11 is shown in that the case was more suitable to be dealt with by way the following table: of a conditional caution and where the police have charged a suspect but a prosecutor on review following Severance costs (£ million) charge determines that it is more appropriate to proceed by way of a conditional caution. 2010-11 8.74 CPS conditional cautions 1 April 2013 to 6 September 2013 2011-12 20.71 Conditional cautions 2012-13 20.92 1 Pre-charge Post-charge 2013-14 3.76 1 2013-14 costs as of 5 September 2013 are provisional Total 290 328 Avon and Somerset 3 17 Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how Bedfordshire 7 6 much the Government legal service has spent on Cambridgeshire 4 11 severance costs for departing members of staff in each Cheshire 6 1 year since 2010-11. [168054] Cleveland 3 9 Cumbria 3 1 Derbyshire 3 1 The Solicitor-General: The Government Legal Service Devon and Cornwall 8 6 (GLS) is not a Government department and does not Dorset 5 0 employ anyone. The GLS is the term used to describe Durham 0 1 approximately 2,000 employees in the legal teams of 30 Dyfed Powys 1 3 Departments of State, regulatory bodies and other Essex 10 7 Government organisations, who are each separately responsible for any costs incurred. 707W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 708W

Serious Fraud Office John Thurso: The cost to the House of Commons Service of recalling Parliament for a day is marginal as Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General if he most operating costs are fixed for the year as a whole will publish the review carried out by Peter Mason and are unaffected by the number and distribution of CBE into how documents related to the BAE Systems sitting days. The additional cost is about £24,000. case were sent by the Serious Fraud Office to the wrong For 29 August the ticket and retail sales associated location. [168047] with visitor services reduced by around £16,500. Although Jubilee Cafe income was reduced by £2,100 there was an The Solicitor-General: Once Mr Mason’s review is overall net increase of income on catering services of formally concluded, the Director of the Serious Fraud £3,000. Office will consider publishing the findings. The total cost of the recall was therefore some £37,500. Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General what the cost to the Serious Fraud Office was of recovering the evidence related to the BAE Systems case sent to the wrong location. [168048] DEFENCE

The Solicitor-General: The costs of recovering the Carbon Emissions material are not recorded separately to the costs of investigating what happened; the cost recorded to 30 August 2013 for both is £10,835. This includes costs for David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the work carried out to date by Peter Mason in reviewing Defence what estimate he has made of the approximate independently what happened. annual cost to his Department of steps to meet its Greening Government targets by March 2015. [168305] Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General whether details of the identities of any prosecution witnesses Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence has invested and informants were contained in the evidence related £54.2 million in energy saving measures to date. A to the BAE Systems case that the Serious Fraud Office further £55 million is programmed to be invested by sent to the wrong location. [168049] March 2015. The Solicitor-General: I understand that the identities Information on the cost of implementing the waste of some prosecution witnesses were included within the and water saving targets is not held. material that was sent in error. It is the Serious Fraud Office’s policy neither to confirm nor deny the existence Armed Forces of informants on any of its cases. Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Witnesses: Children Defence what financial support is currently offered to service personnel who leave the (a) Royal Navy, (b) Ann Coffey: To ask the Attorney-General what Royal Air Force and (c) British Army; and what the information he holds on complaints made about total cost of that support has been in the last three developmentally inappropriate questioning of child years. [168399] witnesses in the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [168191] Mr Francois: There are many types of financial support The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service available to service personnel who leave the armed currently categorises complaints on the following basis: forces but this depends on the reason for their departure. legal decision making, mixed (legal and non-legal decision As an example, financial support may be payable from making) and non-legal decision making. This does not the Armed Forces Pension Scheme (AFPS), the Armed enable it to separately identify complaints made about Forces Compensation Scheme (AFCS) or the War the developmentally inappropriate questioning of child Disablement Pension. In addition there are a variety of witnesses. grants (eg Resettlement Grant). All of these operate on a tri-service basis. The total expenditure on the AFPS and AFCS for each of the last three financial years is available at the following link: HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/armed-forces- pension-scheme-annual-accounts-2012-13 Recall of Parliament Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Thomas Docherty: To ask the hon. Member for Defence what the (a) number and (b) proportion of Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing current armed service personnel in the (i) Royal Navy, the House of Commons Commission, what estimate he (ii) Royal Air Force and (iii) British Army who have has made of the cost to the House service of the recall progressed to the rank of officer, having been recruited of the House on 29 August 2013; and what estimate he into the lowest rank of each service is. [168400] has made of the amount of revenue foregone by (a) visitor services, (b) the Jubilee Cafe, (c) other catering Mr Robathan: The current number of officers who services and (d) other services due to that recall. have been commissioned from the ranks in the naval [168228] service and Army are as set out in the following table: 709W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 710W

such time as the non-resident parent is in a position to Number commissioned from Proportion of officer consider any papers that the CSA may send them and Service As at the ranks corps (%) respond appropriately.

Naval service 1 April 2013 840 14 Army 1 July 2013 2,610 20 Conditions of Employment

Information on the number of currently serving RAF Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for officers, who have previously served in the other ranks Defence how many staff (a) directly employed and (b) (OR) could be provided only at disproportionate cost. indirectly employed through other companies by his However, since April 2010 some 40 OR have been Department were employed on zero-hours contracts in commissioned each year, and this represents 0.14% of each of the last 10 years. [168275] the annual opening OR total. All numbers are rounded to the nearest 10; numbers Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence does not ending in five have been rounded to the nearest multiple employ people on zero hours contracts. The terms of of 20 to prevent systematic bias. employment for individuals indirectly employed through other companies are a matter between the individual Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for and their parent company. Defence if he will estimate the number of (a) regular and (b) reserve forces who will leave the UK armed Military Exercises forces following possible changes to Scotland’s constitutional status after 2014; and what the size of Mr Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for each branch of the armed forces will be in that event. Defence on what days and at which locations the [168401] October 2013 Exercise Joint Warrior is expected to take place; which nations are expected to take part in that Dr Murrison: The UK Government is not planning exercise; what overseas visitors are currently expected for Scottish independence and cannot pre-negotiate the to observe the exercise and on which days; and if he details of independence ahead of the referendum. We will make a statement. [168032] are confident that the people of Scotland will continue to support remaining within the UK. Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 9 September 2013]: Joint Warrior 13-2 will take place from 6-17 Armoured Fighting Vehicles October 2013 in the seas around the east and west coast of Scotland from the Firth of Forth to Clyde approaches; Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for on the Defence training estate of Tain, Spadeadam and Defence whether existing test and diagnostic equipment Cape Wrath; and in the air space of northern England will be used in the Warrior CSP upgrade programme. and Scotland. The nations participating are the UK, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, New Zealand, [168149] Norway and USA. Mr Dunne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer A visiting delegation of senior naval officers from given by the Minister for the Armed Forces, my right Denmark is expected to visit on 7-8 October 2013. hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Separately, the Combined Joint Expeditionary Force Robathan), on 16 July 2013, Official Report, column concept is being exercised at RAF Leeming, with a 649W. delegation of senior air force officers from France planned to visit on 15-16 October 2013. Children: Maintenance Public Expenditure Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the effects of Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for overseas postings on the parenting responsibilities and Defence what savings, in each category of expenditure, liabilities for Child Support Agency payments of his Department has made since May 2010; and what absent parents in the armed forces. [168101] savings are forecast over the next five years. [168325]

Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has a Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 10 September memorandum of understanding (MOU) to facilitate 2013]: As a result of the changes to policy and financial the direct deduction of child maintenance payments plans announced in and around the 2010 Strategic from pay of non-resident parents who are service personnel. Defence and Security Review, the Department implemented Where a parent asks the Child Support Agency (CSA) savings of £74 billion over its 10-year programme, as to help to obtain appropriate child support from a presented in the following table: non-resident parent who is a service person, the MOD will assist the CSA in engaging with that service person. £ billion The MOD will implement any deduction from earnings Equipment and equipment support 36.8 request submitted by the CSA. Reductions in front line military 8.8 The only exception is when the service person is in an personnel operational zone. Under the terms of the MOU, if a Non front line reductions (including 14.6 civilian personnel) service person is committed to operations the commanding Sales receipts 1.4 officer may delay any engagement with the CSA until 711W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 712W

TREASURY £ billion

Other running costs and changes in 12.0 Children: Day Care assumptions Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Total savings 73.6 (1) what estimate he has made of the savings to the public purse if the new tax-free childcare scheme was During the 2013 spending round, the Ministry of restricted to parents earning less than (a) £100,000, Defence committed to £875 million of further operating (b) £90,000, (c) £80,000, (d) £75,000, (e) £70,000, (f) costs efficiency savings in 2015-16. These savings will be £65,000 and (g) £60,000 per annum; [168150] delivered from contract renegotiations, the centralised (2) what estimate he has made of the savings to the procurement of common goods and services, pay restraint, public purse if the new tax-free childcare scheme was and reductions in the cost of the Department’s civilian restricted to providing support for up to two children headcount and allowances. only. [168151]

Sajid Javid: The estimates requested are not available. Reserve Forces: Recruitment Information on Exchequer costs of the new scheme for tax-free child care and numbers of families affected Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for will not be available until the consultation launched on Defence how much has been spent on recruitment 5 August is complete and the policy details have been campaigns for the Reserve Force in (a) 2011, (b) 2012 fully defined. and (c) 2013 to date. [168403] Non-domestic Rates Mr Francois: The spend figures requested on recruitment campaigns for the Reserve Forces are set out in the Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Chancellor of the following table: Exchequer if he will make it his policy to remove business rates from former public toilets which are no Financial year (FY) Total spend (£ million) longer in use. [168258] 2011-12 2.86 2012-13 7.98 Mr Gauke: The Government has no plans to remove 2013-14 to date 5.1 business rates from former public toilets which are no longer in use. Any new business rates relief would heed We are committed to growing the Army Reserve. In to be balanced against the targeted support that is July, we set our new offer to potential Reservists and already provided on business rates, such as the temporary employers with increased incentives and enhanced training doubling of the small business rate relief, and the overriding opportunities alongside Regulars in the UK and abroad. need to reduce the deficit. The way is now clear for a sustained recruitment campaign over the next 12 to 18 months, to build the numbers we Oil: Prices need to expand the Army Reserve. Expenditure for FY 2013-14 is therefore likely to be greater than last year as Dr Offord: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer we embark on that campaign, to meet the target set in what recent assessment his Department has made of Future Reserves 2020. the effect of the conflict in Syria on the price of oil. [167843]

Trident Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department has made no formal assessment. Defence pursuant to the Prime Minister’s oral answer The price of oil is determined by supply and demand of 4 September 2013, on Trident, if he will make an factors. Oil prices have been pushed up over the last two estimate of the additional cost to his Department of months by supply side concerns from Libya, Egypt and bringing forward the main gate decision on the Syria, increasing from $103 per barrel in July to around successor submarines to before May 2015. [168094] $115 by the end of August. There have also been more marginal demand side influences, driven by variable Mr Philip Hammond: As my hon. Friend will be news on international economic growth rates. aware, major investment decisions are made when programmes are sufficiently mature in terms of design Revenue and Customs and cost estimates. For the successor submarine we expect this point, the Main Gate decision point, to be in Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the 2016. Making investment decisions and placing contracts Exchequer how much HM Revenue and Customs (a) when projects are not sufficiently mature is likely to lead has spent under each cost heading in each year since to cost growth and time delays. However, it is not 2010-11 and (b) expects to spend under each cost possible, for any individual project, to estimate with any heading in each year between 2013-14 and 2015-16. degree of accuracy what those costs and delays might [168194] be, precisely because the programme is not yet sufficiently mature. Mr Gauke: The information is as follows: 713W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 714W

(a) The costs HMRC incurs are shown in the notes to Mr Gauke: In recognition of the vital role played by the departmental resource accounts within HMRC’s the armed forces and their families, many payments annual report and accounts. under the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme, in Links to the accounts are provided as follows: particular those to service personnel or veterans, are http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/annual-report-accounts- already exempt from any liability to income tax. The 1011.pdf Government has no plans to change this policy. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/annual-report-accounts- 1112.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-report- and-accounts-2012-13--3 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS (b) HMRC is currently reviewing its plans for 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16 as part of its current planning Cats: Animal Welfare round. It is not possible therefore to breakdown in a more granular form the budgets for 2014-15 and 2015-16. Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for HMRC’s budgets for 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make it are: his policy that local authorities should be required to implement cat care policies to prevent the abandonment £ million of cats in urban areas; and if he will make a statement. [168259] 2013-14 3,471 2014-15 3,244 Mr Heath: It is for local authorities to decide how to 2015-16 3,136 prioritise resources relative to the needs of their Note: communities. Owners should consider whether they can These figures exclude depreciation and capital. take on the responsibility of keeping an animal before Broadly HMRC expects the staffing costs to reduce acquiring it. If there are circumstances that arise which and the IT costs to increase, in line with its digital mean they can no longer look after their pet, they programme, within its overall reductions. should approach a re-homing centre. Abandonment of an animal in circumstances that are likely to compromise Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the its welfare is an offence under the Animal Welfare Act Exchequer what proportion of its resources HM 2006 and carries a maximum penalty of six months’ Revenue and Customs expects to spend under each cost imprisonment or a fine of £5,000, or both. heading in each year from 2013-14 to 2015-16. [168195] Fisheries: Western Sahara Mr Gauke: In 2013-14 and 2014-15 HMRC expects to spend its resources as per the information published Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for on page 37 of its business plan for 2012 to 2015. A link Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assurances to the business plan is provided here: he has received as to the benefit to the Saharawi http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/business-plan-2012.pdf population of the new protocol to the EU-Morocco HMRC is still working on the implications for 201516 Fisheries Partnership Agreement. [168313] following recent announcements. Richard Benyon: The new protocol to the fisheries Staff partnership agreement between the European Union and the Kingdom of Morocco has not yet been agreed Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer by the Council and the European Parliament. how many of his Department’s jobs have been The agreement as initialled requires Morocco to report relocated from London to each region of the UK in on the geographical distribution of European funds for each of the last 10 years. [168016] structural support and infrastructure to include the impact on jobs and investment. Sajid Javid: Following the 2004 Lyons review, which raised the issue of moving civil servants from London Ragwort and the south-east, the Treasury Group (then consisting of HM Treasury, the Office of Government Commerce, Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for OGCbuying.solutions and the Debt Management Office) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his committed to relocate 26.5 full-time equivalent posts by Department is planning to take to improve the March 2008 as part of the 2004 spending review. This management of ragwort. [168262] number was achieved by March 2007 and was followed by moving another 11.5 full-time equivalent posts in Mr Heath [holding answer 10 September 2013]: 2007-08. Responsibility for ragwort control rests with land owners and occupiers, who are expected to adhere to Ragwort Tax Allowances: Veterans Code of Practice (2003). Where the code has not been adhered to, Natural England will investigate complaints Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Chancellor of the and take any appropriate enforcement action. My Exchequer if he will make it his policy that payments ministerial colleague, the Under-Secretary of State, the from the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme and hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), wrote to guaranteed income payments should be exempt from over 500 public bodies in February this year reminding tax. [168180] them of their responsibilities under the code. 715W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 716W

DEFRA is currently working with interested parties Provided by people with knowledge and experience of specific to establish what more can be done to encourage ragwort conditions; control; this includes improving the current evidence Giving people with long-term neurological conditions better base, as well as considering various options for streamlining results from their treatment; the complaint process. Planned around the views of people with long-term neurological conditions and their carers; Able to give people more choice about how and where they get HEALTH treatment and care; and Better at helping people to live more independently. Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning Hospital Corporation of America Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what support his Department plans to provide to the charity, Carbon Monoxide Awareness during National Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Carbon Monoxide Awareness week in November 2013. Health (1) when his Department signed a contract for [168229] the provision of gamma knife services with the Hospital Corporation of America (HCA) at St Bartholomew’s Anna Soubry: The Department has no specific plans Hospital; who authorised the signing of the contract; to provide support to the charity Carbon Monoxide and how many patients HCA are contracted to treat Awareness during Carbon Monoxide Awareness week. each year; [168055] Public Health England (PHE) publishes an annual (2) how many service provision contracts (a) NHS press release to coincide with Carbon Monoxide (CO) England and (b) his Department prior to 1 April 2013 Awareness Week advising people to have their fossil fuel had with the Hospital Corporation of America; at and wood burning appliances such as cookers, heaters which hospitals; and what services the contracts covered. and boilers checked by an appropriate registered engineer [168108] before winter. PHE is working with the Department on a Chief Medical Officer letter to remind health care Dr Poulter: Information concerning existing contracts professionals of the signs and symptoms of CO poisoning. to provide gamma knife stereotactic radiosurgery has PHE is also updating its flowchart to assist general been provided by NHS England. NHS England practitioners and emergency physicians in diagnosing commissions the gamma knife service from Barts and CO poisoning which will accompany this letter. the London NHS Trust through a sub-contract with PHE and the Department will provide input into the Health Corporation of America (HCA) at the Harley Cross Government Group on Gas Safety Report which Street Clinic. It is a cost and volume contract. The is released in November. This report details the work of contract was signed in 2003 and as a sub-contract was its members to reduce deaths and injuries from accidental approved by Barts and the London NHS Trust. poisoning from CO. The Department does not hold any contracts with the Hospital Corporation of America and its United Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Kingdom subsidiary for the period up to and including Health what support is made available by the NHS to 1 April 2013. NHS England did not exist prior to 1 people experiencing long-term chronic health problems April 2013. as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning. [168230]

Anna Soubry: It is recognised that between 10% and School Milk 15% of people who have severe carbon monoxide poisoning develop long-term complications such as damage to the Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for brain or heart. Health whether he will publish by the end of 2013 a full The national health service has prioritised improving response to the consultation on the Nursery Milk outcomes for people and there is a focus on people with Scheme that ended in October 2012. [168336] long-term conditions. To support this a National Clinical Director for neurological conditions has been appointed Dr Poulter: The Department is conducting a and is already working with the newly established strategic comprehensive analysis of all the responses to the Nursery clinical networks to support improving the quality of Milk consultation, the impact assessment and the care commissioned by NHS England and clinical accompanying survey of child care providers. A commissioning groups. The commissioners will be working Government response on the future operation of the closely with local authorities, especially social care. Nursery Milk Scheme will be made after full consideration This will help to ensure that services are: is given to these and other relevant information. Quicker and easier to use; More closely matched to people’s needs; Warm Homes Healthy People Fund Better co-ordinated so that people do not have to see a lot of different professionals and repeat the same information about themselves; Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) whether his Department will be running a Provided for as long as people need them, so that treatment continues without the need for a referral every time the person Warm Homes, Healthy People programme for the winter has a new problem; of 2013-14; [168295] Better at helping people with neurological conditions and their (2) when bids will be invited for the Warm Homes carers to make decisions about care and treatment; Healthy People Fund in 2013-14. [168393] 717W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 718W

Anna Soubry: The Warm Homes Healthy People Crimes of Violence fund will not be repeated this year. However, ring-fenced funding of £5.45 billion for 2013-15 has been made available to local authorities to address public health Emily Thornberry: To ask the Secretary of State for priorities determined at the local level. In setting their the Home Department how many alleged instances of priorities local authorities must take into account the grievous bodily harm were reported to police forces in Public Health Outcomes Framework which has excess England and Wales in each year since 2009; and how winter deaths as an indicator. many such allegations were classified as no crimes. [168064]

HOME DEPARTMENT Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 9 September 2013]: Information on the number of alleged incidents is not Asylum: Finance available centrally. The available information relates to offences initially recorded by the police and subsequently Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the ″no crimed″ and the available information is given in Home Department how many people are in receipt of the table. (a) section 95 support for asylum applicants and (b) Data for 2012-13 are not comparable with earlier section 4 support for a failed asylum applicant who years as grievous bodily harm (GBH) offences were cannot return home. [168071] moved into new offence classifications as part of the Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: As at ONS classification changes. Data provided show the end of June 2013, there were 21,423 asylum seekers, number of crimes recorded by the police for GBH both including dependants, in receipt of Section 95 and 4,472 with and without intent up to 2012-13 and then the in receipt of Section 4 support for failed asylum applicants broader categories of ‘assault with injury’ and ‘assault who cannot return home. with intent to cause serious harm’ which GBH with and without intent now fall into. The data presented above, are published in table as16q and table as18q (Asylum data tables Volume 2) of Number of GBH/assault with intent to cause serious harm offences initially recorded as crimes and subsequently no-crimed, 2009-10 to 2012-13—England Immigration Statistics: April—June 2013, available at: and Wales https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ Number series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release Offences initially recorded Offences deemed to and the Library of the House. by the police as crimes be ‘no crimes’ Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre GBH1 Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2009-10 41,023 1,522 Home Department what assessment she has made of 2010-11 36,146 1,357 the adequacy of the resources available to the Child 2011-12 33,415 1,060 Exploitation and Online Protection Centre to combat child abuse online. [167910] Assault with intent to cause serious harm2 Damian Green: The work of the Child Exploitation 2012-13 17,473 467 and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) in tackling the proliferation of indecent images of children is of utmost Assault with injury2 importance. That is why we have protected the budget of CEOP compared to budget reductions which have 2012-13 298,966 8,007 1 Offences of GBH with and without intent. been made elsewhere in law enforcement. CEOP has 2 With effect from 2012-13, GBH with intent was moved into a new classification over 50% more staff now (133 as of 30 August 2013) of ‘Assault with intent to cause serious harm’. than it did in November 2010 (85). Also with effect from 2012-13, GBH without intent was moved into a new offence classification of ‘Assault with injury’ and such offences cannot be As a fully integrated command within the National separately identified from other offences recorded in that classification. Crime Agency (NCA), CEOP will be able to do more to Source: protect children. The CEOP command will have a clear Police recorded crime, Home Office remit and be headed by a director, accountable to the NCA director general. Detention Centres This means that the director of CEOP will have the freedom to direct the specialist resources within their command to reduce the threat or risk of harm to a Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the child. Home Department whether she plans to expand the Being part of the NCA will bring advantages to immigration detention estate. [167856] CEOP, including access to more capacity to deal with complex cases of child sexual exploitation and sexual Mr Harper [holding answer 6 September 2013]: The abuse and more resilience for frontline operational services. capacity and location of the detention estate is under CEOP will also be able to draw on support from other constant review and we consider any opportunities to NCA specialist functions, such as the agency’s enhanced rebalance it in order to aid removal of those who have intelligence capability, the National Cyber Crime Unit, no right to remain in the UK. The conversion of HMP and the Border Policing Command (including the The Verne in Dorset into an Immigration Removal international network) as well as greater influence through Centre, which will add 580 beds was announced by the the NCA’s national leadership role across law enforcement. Ministry of Justice on 4 September 2013. 719W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 720W

Entry Clearances Mr Harper: According to latest published statistics there were 568 visas issued to main applicants who applied under the Tier 1—Entrepreneur route in the Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for the first two quarters of 2013. Latest published statistics for Home Department how many Tier 1 Entrepreneur applications for visas and the outcome of applications visas have been granted since 31 January 2013; and for Tier 1—Entrepreneur visas (main applicants and how many decisions on such visas are awaiting dependants) for the first two quarters of 2013 appear in determination. [167731] the following table:

Entry clearance visa applications and resolution by category PBS Tier 1—Entrepreneur, 2013 Of which: Applications Resolved Issued Refused Percentage refused Lapsed

January-March (Q1), 2013 Main applicants 617 602 305 293 49 4 Dependants 575 598 394 204 34 0

April-June (Q2), 2013 Main applicants 649 673 263 405 60 5 Dependants 672 688 409 273 40 6 Notes: 1. Some decisions may relate to applications received in previous quarters. 2. Data are provisional. Source: Immigration Statistics, April to June 2013, Table be_01_q

It is not possible to provide figures only from 31 Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home January 2013 for those issued visas under the Tier Department how many graduates from UK universities 1—Entrepreneur route from these published statistics. have been issued Tier 5 (Government Authorised The number of applications for entry clearance visas Exchange) visas since 6 April 2012. [168119] awaiting a decision are not available from these published statistics. The latest Home Office immigration statistics on Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The entry clearance visas are published in the release published statistics on out of country visas to the Immigration Statistics April to June-2013, which is United Kingdom issued and in country extensions of available from the Library of the House and on the stay granted to main applicants in the Tier 5 (Government Department’s website at: Authorised Exchange) category are provided in the https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ following table: series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release

Out of country visas to the United Kingdom issued and in-country extensions of stay granted: Tier 5 (Government Authorised Exchange) Quarter Out of country visas issued In-country grants of extensions

2012 Q3 1,295 68 2012 Q4 688 144 2013 Q1 787 40 2013 Q2 1,926 79 Notes: 1. Excludes dependants. 2. Data are provisional. 3. Entry clearance visas issued and grants of an extension of stay should not be summed. Individuals could be counted in both entry clearance visas issued and grants of an extension of stay if the issue and grant occurs within the same year. Source: Immigration Statistics, April to June 2013, table be_01_q and table ex_01_q

It is not possible to determine how many of these 2013, which is available from the Library of the House main applicants graduated from UK universities without and on the Department’s website at: examination of individual case records at disproportionate https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ cost. series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release A copy of the short statistical article ‘Extensions of Information published in the short statistical article stay by previous category’ is available from the Library ‘Extensions of stay by previous category’ show that in of the House and at: 2012 there were 129 grants of an extension to main applicants in Tier 5 (Government Authorised Exchange) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/extensions-of- whose previous category was study. stay-by-previous-category The latest Home Office immigration statistics on Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home entry clearance visas and extensions of stay are published Department how many Tier 1 (Graduate Entrepreneur) in the release Immigration Statistics April to June to visas have been issued since their introduction in April 2012. [168127] 721W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 722W

Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The The latest Home Office immigration statistics on published statistics on out of country visas to the entry clearance visas and extensions of stay are published United Kingdom issued and in country extensions of in the release Immigration Statistics April to June 2013, stay granted to main applicants in the Tier 1 (Graduate which is available from the Library of the House and on Entrepreneur) category are provided in the following the Department’s website at: table: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ Out of country visas to the United Kingdom issued and in-country series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release extensions of stay granted to Tier 1—Graduate Entrepreneurs A copy of the short statistical article “Extensions of Out of country visas In-country grants of stay by previous category” is available at: Quarter issued extensions https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/extensions-of- 2012 Q3 0 0 stay-by-previous-category 2012 Q4 0 27 and will be placed in the Library of the House. 2013 Q1 0 66 2013 Q2 0 36 Entry Clearances: Syria Notes: 1. Excludes dependants. Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2. Data are provisional. Source: Home Department what additional resources are being Immigration Statistics, April to June 2013. table be_01_q and table made available to the British Embassy in Lebanon to ex_01_q ensure the swift processing of visas for Syrian nationals wishing to come to the UK on spouse visas. [167966] The latest Home Office immigration statistics on entry clearance visas and extensions of stay are published Mr Harper [holding answer 6 September 2013]: The in the release Immigration Statistics April to June 2013, extra Syrian spouse applications considered in Beirut as which is available from the Library of the House and on a result of the closure of the Visa Application Centre the Department’s website at: (VAC) in Damascus are a very small addition to the https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ overall workload of Beirut, and we have not needed to series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release send any additional staff resource to Beirut to deal with them. Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home The current customer service targets overseas for Department how many graduates of UK universities settlement applications (spouse applications are considered have been issued Tier 2 visas since 6 April 2012. under this service standard) are to process 95% of [168129] settlement applications within 12 weeks of the application date and 100% within 24 weeks of the application date. In June 2013, 95% of settlement visa applications made Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The at the VAC in Beirut (Lebanon) were processed within published statistics on out of country visas to the 12 weeks. United Kingdom issued and in country extensions of stay granted to main applicants in the Tier 2 and the Female Genital Mutilation equivalent pre Points Based System categories are provided in the following table: Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Out of country visas to the United Kingdom issued and in-country extensions of Home Department what funding the Government has stay granted: Tier 2 and pre-PBS equivalent allocated to tackling the practice of female genital Out of country visas In-country grants of mutilation at home and abroad. [168212] Quarter issued extensions

2012 Q3 11,065 8,439 Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government are absolutely 2012 Q4 8,682 8,733 committed to preventing and tackling female genital 2013 Q1 10,402 7,968 mutilation (FGM). The Home Office announced on 18 2013 Q2 11,536 10,377 July 2013 that it will provide £15,971 of funding towards Notes: a new prevalence study, to be carried out by Equality 1. Excludes dependants. now and City University. 2. Data are provisional. 3. Entry clearance visas issued and grants of an extension of stay should not be Other funding which the Government have allocated summed. Individuals could be counted in both entry clearance visas issued and to tackling FGM on domestic and international initiatives grants of an extension of stay if the issue and grant occurs within the same year. 4. In-country extensions include initial and further extensions. since 2011 is as follows: 5. PBS = Points Based System Home Office—£100,000 fund over two years to provide grants Source: of between £2000 and £5000 to frontline organisations supporting Immigration Statistics, April-June 2013, table be_01_q and table ex_01_q work to strengthen the voice of women to speak about FGM and work to abandon the practices; and, It is not possible to determine how many of these main Department for International Development—£35million applicants graduated from UK universities without programme to address FGM, in Africa and beyond. The aim of examination of individual case records at disproportionate the programme is to see a reduction in cutting by 30% in at least 10 countries over five years. cost. Information published in the short statistical article Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for the “Extensions of stay by previous category” show that in Home Department (1) in how many cases asylum was 2012, there were 2,614 grants of an extension to main granted on the grounds of the risk of female genital applicants in Tier 2o whose previous category was study. mutilation in each year since 2010; [168223] 723W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 724W

(2) in how many cases asylum was applied for on the Statistics quarterly releases. The latest figures show that basis of the risk of female genital mutilation but as at 30 June 2013, 27 people were detained for between subsequently rejected since 2010. [168224] 18 months and 24 months, 11 for between 24 months and 36 months and one for between 36 months and 48 Mr Harper [holding answer 10 September 2013]: The months. Home Office does not routinely record, on its Case Data on the length of detention of people in detention Information Database, information about the grounds are readily available in the latest release, Immigration on which asylum is claimed. The information requested Statistics: April-June 2013, table dt_09_q from the GOV.UK could be obtained only by a manual search of the files website: of all asylum claims from women since 2010 and this https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ could be achieved only at a disproportionate cost. series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release Figures as at the 30 September 2013 will be published in Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Immigration Statistics July-September 2013 on Home Department what training is given to police 28 November 2013. officers on tackling and prosecuting instances of female genital mutilation. [168231] Published figures on people held in immigration detention are those detained in the United Kingdom solely under Mr Jeremy Browne: Police guidance and training on Immigration Act powers at short term holding facilities, investigating domestic abuse already includes dealing pre departure accommodation and immigration removal with cases of female genital mutilation (FGM). Our centres. cross-Government Action Plan, published in March Figures exclude those held in police cells, Prison 2013, sets out our clear commitment to work on further Service establishments, short term holding rooms at guidance and learning programmes for the police on ports and airports (for less than 24 hours), and those sexual and domestic violence, including FGM, forced recorded as detained under both criminal and immigration marriage, ’honour’ based violence (HBV) and stalking. powers and their dependants. The Government has also recently reviewed its Multi- Agency Practice Guidelines on FGM, originally published Immigration: Stratford in February 2011, for front-line professionals such as teachers, GPs, nurses and police. The guidelines aim to Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the raise awareness of FGM, highlight the risks that people Home Department whether her Department’s recent should be aware of and set out clearly the steps that decision to allocate resources to immigration status should be taken to safeguard children and women from checks in Stratford resulted in delay in processing this abuse. They are a key development in preventing casework in other areas of her Department’s work. girls from being harmed by FGM. [168113]

Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper: This Operation did not require casework Home Department what her policy is on granting resources. As a result, there was no impact on processing asylum to women and girls at risk of female genital casework in other areas of the Department’s work. mutilation. [168232] Members: Correspondence Mr Harper: An individual who claims that she would, on return to her home country, suffer female genital Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for mutilation may qualify for refugee status if she is able to the Home Department when she expects a reply to be demonstrate that she has a well-founded fear. This may sent to the letter from the hon. Member for Slough of include evidence that female genital mutilation is knowingly 14 February 2013 on the Employers Checking Service. tolerated by the authorities or that the authorities are [166285] unable or unwilling to offer effective protection. Asylum decision-makers examine claims for international Mr Harper [holding answer 18 July 2013]: I wrote to protection sensitively and ensure that all evidence relating the hon. Member on 20 August 2013. to an individual’s claim is taken into account. Specific guidance and training regarding gender- specific issues, Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for including the risk of female genital mutilation, has been the Home Department when she intends to reply to the issued to decision-makers. letter to the Minister for Immigration, dated 22 July 2013, from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Immigrants: Detainees Gorton with regards to Dr M. Kiche. [167677]

Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Home Department how many people held in 5 September 2013. immigration detention had been held for more than (a) 18 months, (b) 24 months and (c) 36 months on 1 Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for September 2013. [167863] the Home Department when she intends to reply to the letter to her, dated 22 July 2013, from the right hon. Mr Harper [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The Member for Manchester, Gorton with regards to requested information is not available. Figures on people Mr G. A. Rubbani. [167679] held in detention are collated as at the last day of each quarter, on 31 March, 30 June, 30 September and 31 Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on December of each year and published in Immigration 5 September 2013. 725W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 726W

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for I can, however, refer you to the answer of my noble the Home Department when she intends to reply to the Friend Lord Judd on 29 August 2013, Official Report, letter to the Minister of State for Immigration, dated House of Lords, column WA406, which provides figures 25 June 2013, from the right hon. Member for for how many occasions in 2012 we were prevented Manchester, Gorton with regards to Mr M. Ali. from deporting criminals who were not United Kingdom [167684] citizens following the completion of their sentences by rulings of the United Kingdom courts citing Article 8 Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights. September 2013. Passports: Lost Property Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she intends to reply to the Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the letter to her dated 15 July 2013 from the right hon. Home Department how much compensation her Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr D Department and its agencies paid as a result of losing O Ogunmulele. [167690] (a) passports and (b) other travel documents in each of the last five years for which records are available. Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on [167909] 5 September 2013. Mr Harper [holding answer 6 September 2013]: The Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Office does not record payment data in a format the Home Department when she intends to reply to the which would allow the question to be answered without urgent letter to the Minister for Immigration dated incurring disproportionate costs. 5 July 2013 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Khwima Msiska. Police: Pakistan [168087] Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on the Home Department what the (a) nature and (b) 4 September 2013. financial value was of counternarcotics assistance given to the Pakistan government in each of the last six Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for financial years; and what the planned expenditure for the Home Department when she intends to reply to the each category is in the (i) current and (ii) next financial letter to the Minister for Immigration dated 25 July year. [167191] 2013 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms Simone Small. [168088] Mr Jeremy Browne: The UK provides counternarcotics assistance to a range of international partners, including Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Pakistan. We do so to tackle the international drugs 5 September 2013. trade and minimise the threat it poses to the UK. It is important to protect activities which form part of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK’s contribution to the international counter-narcotics Home Department when a reply will be sent to letters effort and to respect the principle that international sent by the hon. Member for Harrow West on 13 May partners are able to operate in secrecy on matters of and 16 July 2013 to UK Visas and Immigration national security against organised crime. As such, it is regarding Mr Khaldoon Atiyah. [168328] our policy not to disclose details of our counter narcotics work, as to do so risks reducing its effectiveness and Mr Harper [holding answer 10 September 2013]: UK damaging international relations. Visas and Immigration wrote to the hon. Member on 5 September 2013. Rape

Offenders: Deportation Emily Thornberry: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many alleged rapes were Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home reported to police forces in England and Wales in each Department how many foreign national offenders have year since 2009; and how many such allegations were successfully challenged deportation on human rights subsequently classified as no crimes. [168077] grounds in the last 10 years; how many of those challenges were under (a) Article 3, (b) Article 6 and Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 9 September 2013]: (c) Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Information on the number of alleged incidents is not Rights; and how many were on other grounds. [167899] available centrally. The available information relates to offences initially recorded by the police and subsequently Mr Harper [holding answer 6 September 2013]: “no crimed” and is given in the table. Information on what ECHR article an appeal was Table: Number of rape offences initially recorded as crimes and subsequently successfully challenged on is held at the level of coordinated no-crimed, 2009-10 to 2012-13—England and Wales paper case files or within the notes section of the Home Number Office Case Information Database (CID). Such data is Offences initially recorded by Offences deemed to be not aggregated in national reporting systems, which Rape the police as crimes “no crimes” would mean this question could be answered only through 2009-10 17,238 2,164 a disproportionately expensive manual case by case 2010-11 18,027 2,135 search to collate the data. 2011-12 17,979 1,941 727W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 728W

Table: Number of rape offences initially recorded as crimes and subsequently The costs for Government Car Services are published no-crimed, 2009-10 to 2012-13—England and Wales in Hansard annually as a written ministerial statement Number and will be available later this year. The latest figures are Offences initially recorded by Offences deemed to be Rape the police as crimes “no crimes” available via the following link: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/ 2012-13 18,061 1,734 cmhansrd/cm121220/wmstext/ Source: 121220m0001.htm#12122056000216 Police recorded crime, Home Office Records for other travel costs are not held centrally.

Stop and Search Verne Prison

Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the purposes were of the Home Department how many people were stopped and contracts relating to HM Prison The Verne which were searched under the Terrorism Act 2000 in each of the awarded by her Department on 7 August 2013 to (a) last five years. [168296] Aedas, (b) Faithful and Gould and (c) Sweett; and if he will place in the Library a copy of those contracts. Damian Green: The requested data are published [167883] each year in Home Office statistical releases. For reference, the table shows the number of stops and searches of Mr Harper [holding answer 6 September 2013]: Contracts persons conducted between (a) 2007-08 and 2011-12 for services at The Verne were awarded by the Ministry under sections 44 and 47A of the Terrorism Act 2000 by of Justice for assessing the feasibility and delivery of police forces in Great Britain, and (b) 2008-09 and the prison’s conversion to an immigration removal centre. 2011-12 under section 43 of the Terrorism Act 2000 by The conversion provides an additional 580 detention the Metropolitan Police Service. beds required to aid removal of those not entitled to Provisional data for 2012-13 are scheduled for publication remain in the UK. The contracts can be found via on 12 September 2013 in the next edition of “Operation Contracts Finder at: of police powers under the Terrorism Act 2000 and https://www.gov.uk/contracts-finder subsequent legislation: Arrests, outcomes and stops by searching Ministry of Justice, HMP Verne. and searches, Great Britain”, available via: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ series/counter-terrorism-statistics WORK AND PENSIONS Stops and searches of persons1 under sections 44/47a and 43 of the Children: Poverty Terrorism Act: 2007-08 to 2011-122 Numbers John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Sections 44/47A3,4 Section 435 Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of (a) disabled children and (b) children 2007-08 188,566 n/a defined as living in poverty living in households whose 2008-09 255,680 1,601 income is subject to the benefits cap. [168145] 2009-10 10 102,504 1,229 2010-11 11 9,744 1,154 Esther McVey: The information is as follows: 2011-12 0 819 (a) Households who are in receipt of disability living allowance n/a = Data not available. (DLA) or personal independence payment (PIP) are exempt from 1 Excludes ’vehicle-only’ searches. the benefit cap. This includes those that receive this benefit for 2 Data for all years may be revised in future editions of “Operation of dependent disabled children. Therefore no dependant disabled police powers under the Terrorism Act 2000 and subsequent legislation: children as defined by DLA or PIP rules live in households Arrests, outcomes and stops and searches”. affected by the benefit cap. 3 Includes figures from police forces in England, Wales, Scotland and (b) It is not possible to provide this information due to insufficient the British Transport Police. sample size. 4 All s44 powers were formally replaced with s47A powers, which have a significantly higher threshold for authorisation than s44 searches, in Disability March 2011. There has, as yet, been no use of stop and search powers under s47A. 5 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Searches conducted by the Metropolitan Police Service only. and Pensions what proportion of working age adults are currently registered as disabled in (a) Barnsley Travel Central constituency, (b) Barnsley, (c) South Yorkshire and (d) England. [168371] Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: The Census is the only data source the Home Department what the cost of travel by her which can provide an estimate of disability prevalence was in the 11 months to 1 March 2013. [167496] at a local authority level. From the 2011 Census we can identify respondents James Brokenshire: Details of overseas travel by Ministers whose day to day activities were either ‘limited a lot’ or are passed to the Cabinet Office on a quarterly basis limited a little’ because of a health problem or disability and are subsequently published on the Cabinet Office which has lasted, or is expected to last, at least 12 months. website which is available via the following link: The percentage of working age adults who replied in https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ministers- the Census that their activities are limited either ‘a lot’ hospitality-gifts-travel-and-meetings-2012-2013 or ‘a little’ by a health condition or disability is: 729W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 730W

Offshore Industry: Safety Percentage

(a) Barnsley Central constituency 18 Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) Barnsley 19 Work and Pensions when the Health and Safety Executive (c) South Yorkshire 15 last conducted a review of the safety reporting procedure (d) England 13 in the offshore helicopter sector. [168292]

Information on the Census can be found on the Mr Simon Burns: I have been asked to reply on behalf Office for National Statistics website. of the Department for Transport. Foreign Investment in UK: Japan The Civil Aviation Authority carried out a detailed review of offshore operations and standard operational procedures in February 2009 following an accident involving Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work a Eurocopter EC 225 helicopter. and Pensions if he will list the 100 parliamentary constituencies with the largest amount of Japanese The CAA regularly reviews offshore operational practices and standard operational procedures as part of their inward investment over the last 30 years. [168245] Regulatory oversight and is also currently involved in Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the assisting EASA in formulating the EASA-OPS rule set Cabinet Office. for offshore operations involved in the exploitation of Oil and Gas over hostile environments. The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for to reply. Work and Pensions what assessment has been made of Letter from Glen Watson, dated September 2013: the safety implications for the offshore workforce of As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I the fatal accident in the North Sea on 23 August 2013, have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to ask involving an AS332 L2 model Super Puma helicopter; the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will list the 100 and if he will make a statement. [168354] parliamentary constituencies with the largest amount of Japanese inward investment over the last 30 years. 168245 Mr Hoban: No assessment has been made as this is ONS compiles data on inward investment at UK level only, not the responsibility of the Health and Safety Executive. data for parliamentary constituencies are not available. This is a matter for the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and the Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB). Jobcentre Plus Personal Income Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what guidance his Department has issued Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to Jobcentre Plus officers on allowing claimants to use and Pensions what targets his Department has set for telephones and computer terminals in Jobcentre Plus reducing income inequality; and what its policy is on premises to access local welfare assistance schemes; the social effect of income inequality. [168309] and if he will make a statement. [168025] Esther McVey: The Government is committed to Mr Hoban: Local welfare assistance schemes and tackling inequality and ensuring that people can overcome their accessibility are a matter for local authorities to the challenges that mean they are stuck in cycles of determine. Jobcentre phones or computers can be used poverty. As well as improving education and tackling by claimants to make claims for local welfare assistance problem debt, the Government is determined to reform but we expect most people will contact their local the welfare system to encourage work and help people authority in person. We encourage claimants to use capitalise on their potential. other means of contact, where possible, so that people wanting to use Jobcentre facilities to search for work The Government is committed to tackling child poverty can do so. and to the Child Poverty Act 2010. Relative income poverty, which is a measure of inequality, is one of the Jobseeker’s Allowance: Scotland targets in the Act. However, while the Government recognises that income is important, income in isolation does not present a full picture of what living in poverty Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work means in the UK. We have consulted on better measures and Pensions how many people in Scotland are of child poverty that capture its causes. The complexity currently waiting for a new jobseeker’s allowance claim of the issue means that we need to take time to ensure to be processed; and what the average waiting time is. we have the best option for measuring child poverty, so [168310] that we can ensure we properly tackle the causes. We will publish our response as soon as we can. Mr Hoban: In Scotland, 10,629 JSA claims were outstanding at end of July 2013. The Government is taking action to help the most vulnerable in society, including those in low income. In During July 2013, the actual average clearance time April 2013, DWP published its report ‘Social Justice: (AACT) for JSA claims was 10.1 days, which is an transforming lives—One year on’ which can be found improvement of 1.8 days over the AACT for July 2012. here: July 2013 data are the most recent information available https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ through the Department’s management information attachment_data/file/203041/CM_8606_Social_Justice_tagged- system. mw.pdf 731W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 732W

This includes action to help troubled families turn Mr Maude: The circumstances in which Departments their lives around, make sure that children are properly choose to engage agency workers, and the agencies supported so that they complete their education, and used, is a matter for individual Departments to determine. work with the voluntary, public and private sectors to The Agency Workers Regulations are respected by all deal more effectively with complex problems. departments. However, where agency workers are permanently employed by an agency, contractual Satellite Broadcasting arrangements are a matter between the individual and the agency concerned. Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Central Government spending on temporary staff Work and Pensions what subscriptions his Department has been reduced by stringent spending controls and has for premium satellite television channels; and what has contributed to a saving over £1.6 billion in 2012-13 the cost of each such subscription was in the most compared to the level of spending in 2009-10. recent year for which figures are available. [168655] New Businesses Mr Hoban: This information is not centrally collated and could not be provided without incurring Dan Jarvis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet disproportionate costs. Office how many businesses have opened in (a) Barnsley Central constituency, (b) South Yorkshire and (c) England in the last year. [168372]

CABINET OFFICE Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Conditions of Employment Letter from Glen Watson, dated September 2013: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Office (1) how many people classed as employed (a) asking now many businesses have opened in (a) Barnsley Central only have one hour per week contracts and (b) have constituency, (b) South Yorkshire and (c) England in the last year. worked one hour in the last year in each constituency (168372) in the UK; [168026] Data on the number of new businesses started are available in (2) how many people resident in Vale of Clwyd the ONS release on Business Demography at: constituency are classed as employed but (a) only have http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bus-register/business- one hour per week contracts and (b) have worked one demography/index.html hour in a year. [168029] The latest data available are for 2011. Data for 2012 will be available in November 2013. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the The table below contains the count of new enterprises in the Barnsley Central constituency, South Yorkshire Metropolitan responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have County and England. asked the authority to reply. Count of new enterprise “births” in Barnsley Central constituency, Letter from Glen Watson, dated September 2013: South Yorkshire Metropolitan County and England, 2011 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics Number (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking how many people classed as employed (a) only have one Barnsley Central Constituency 270 hour per week contracts and (b) have worked one hour in the last South Yorkshire Metropolitan 3,705 year in each constituency in the UK (168026); and how many County people resident in Vale of Clwyd Constituency are classed as England 232,460 employed but (a) only have one hour per week contracts and (b) Notes: have worked one hour in a year. (168029) 1. The above table has been produced using an extract from the Inter The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles employment Departmental Business Register. statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey 2. These numbers do not include very small businesses, typically (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. those below the threshold for VAT and PAYE. However, ONS does not produce estimates of contracted hours Social Conditions: Surveys and are not able to produce estimates of the number of people who have worked one hour in a year in any Parliamentary constituency due to small sample sizes. Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet National and local area estimates for many labour market Office what recent comparative assessment he has statistics, including employment, unemployment and Claimant made of the UK’s position amongst European states in Count are available on the NOMIS website at the satisfaction with social life survey; and what steps http://www.nomisweb.co.uk he is taking to improve the UK’s performance in this area. [168027]

Government Departments: Temporary Employment Mr Hurd: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) is measuring national well-being. Satisfaction with social Caroline Lucas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet life is one of the 40 indicators within the measurement Office what his policy is on the use of the Swedish framework. The published well-being statistics are Derogation in the Agency Workers Directive for staff experimental. ONS is planning to make a more detailed working in Government Departments; and if he will assessment of each indicator, particularly how they make a statement. [168134] compare to previous estimates. In the meantime the 733W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 734W

Cabinet Office is working with other Government Press: Subscriptions Departments to make best use of these data in informing policy and recently provided evidence of progress to the Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Environmental Audit Committee. Culture, Media and Sport which newspapers, periodicals and trade profession publications her private ministerial Voluntary Work: Young People office subscribes to on a (a) daily, (b) weekly, (c) monthly and (d) quarterly basis. [168695] Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that young Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Culture, people from strong faith and cultural backgrounds Media and Sport’s private office subscribes to a daily Monday-to-Friday newspaper delivery service. have access to the National Citizen Service; [167413] This comprises: (a) The Times, Financial Times, The (2) what assessment he has made of the work of the Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent, Daily Jewish Lads’ and Girls’ Brigade as part of the National Mail, Daily Express, Daily Mirror, The Sun and (b) a Citizen Service in Bury South constituency. [167414] weekly delivery of The Spectator. It holds no other subscriptions. Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office is committed to ensuring that all 16 and 17-year-olds can participate in the National Satellite Broadcasting Citizen Service (NCS). Mixing NCS participants from different backgrounds remains one of the fundamental Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for principles of the programme. To this end, the Cabinet Culture, Media and Sport what subscriptions her Office and NCS providers have put in measures to Department has for premium satellite television channels; facilitate access for young people from strong faith and and what the cost of each such subscription was in the cultural backgrounds. These include: most recent year for which figures are available. [168641] Running single gender programmes; Delivering programmes that do not take place over weekends Hugh Robertson: The Department for Culture, Media so as not to coincide with Jewish or Christian Sabbath; and Sport does not subscribe to any premium satellite Catering for different dietary requirements and providing prayer television channels. facilities; and Adapting programmes which take place during Ramadan.’ Security In summer 2012 the Jewish Lads’ and Girls’ Brigade delivered an NCS pilot in the London borough of Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Redbridge. The Jewish Lads’ and Girls’ Brigade are not Culture, Media and Sport how many departmental currently delivering NCS programmes as a local delivery identity cards or passes have been reported lost or partner in the area of Bury South. However, all 16 and stolen by staff in her Department since May 2010. 17-year-old members of the Jewish Lads’ and Girls’ [168606] Brigade have the opportunity to take part in NCS programmes in this area, including the autumn programme. Hugh Robertson: In April 2013, the Department moved into 100 Parliament Street, to share accommodation with HMRC. Security passes for 100 Parliament Street are issued by HMRC. The Department did not retain CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT the records of lost passes for its previously occupied buildings. Buildings

Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Culture, Media and Sport what refurbishments to her Department’s buildings have been carried out in the Christmas Cards last 24 months; and at what cost. [168799] Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Robertson: The Department has not carried Energy and Climate Change how much his private out any refurbishments in the past 24 months. ministerial office spent on sending Christmas cards in 2012. [168679] Cycling Gregory Barker: The ministerial office did not spend any money on sending Christmas cards in 2012. Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what input her Department provided Electricity Generation to the Department for Transport’s response to the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Cycling report, Get Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Britain Cycling. [168384] Energy and Climate Change how much was paid in constraint payments by National Grid in each year Hugh Robertson: DCMS works with the Department from 2009; and what proportion of such payments were for Transport on cycling policy. DCMS gave evidence at received by (a) windfarms and (b) gas-fired power the APPG enquiry and contributed to the DFT response. stations. [168205] 735W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 736W

Michael Fallon: Total constraint payments for generators and so on. The activities will be subject to the same of all types since 2009 are as follows: robust safety and environmental regime, supplemented by new controls against the risk of earthquakes. £ million Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 263 Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has 2009-10 139 made of the effect on (a) the environment, (b) house 2010-11 170 prices and (c) the quality of life of fracking. [167215] 2011-12 325 2012-13 170 Michael Fallon: The Royal Society and the Royal Source: Academy of Engineering’s report “Shale Gas Extraction National Grid published data in the UK: a review of hydraulic fracturing”, published The Department does not hold data on the breakdown in June 2012 concluded that environmental (and health of constraint payments for each type of technology. and safety) risks associated with hydraulic fracturing National Grid has advised that details of most individual could be managed effectively in the UK “as long as constraint payments to generators are published at: operational best practices are implemented and enforced www.elexon.co.uk# through regulation”. and The Government are currently reviewing the impacts www.bmreports.com of energy infrastructure, including shale gas extraction; and some aggregated data, including an explanation of on the environment and rural economy. This includes constraint payments made to wind generation, is published effects on air quality, biodiversity, greenhouse gases, in its ‘Monthly Balancing Services Summary’, available health, land use, local environment quality, waste and at: water. As part of the review, the Government have commissioned research comparing the effects which www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Balancing/Summary different types of energy infrastructure may have on house prices. The results of this analysis will be published Energy: Scotland once completed later this year.

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what the annual amount paid in and Climate Change what plans have been put forward constraint payments in Scotland for energy is from (a) by applicant companies seeking licences to operate wind, (b) coal, (c) gas and (d) nuclear in each of the hydraulic fracturing platforms for gas for the long last five years for which figures are available. [168308] term management, decontamination or disposal of radioactively contaminated scale on pipes and storage Michael Fallon: The Department does not hold data tanks used for fracked gases. [167230] on the breakdown of constraint payments for each type of technology. Constraint payments are made by National Michael Fallon: There are well established commercial Grid through competitive market arrangements in order arrangements in place, developed initially for the offshore to help ensure the secure operation of the electricity oil and gas sector, where such equipment can be descaled, system. National Grid has advised that details of most put back into service or recycled. individual constraint payments to generators are published at www.elexon.co.uk and www.bmreports.com, and some Fracking: North Yorkshire aggregated data, including an explanation of constraint payments made to wind generation, is published in its Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Monthly Balancing Services Summary, available at: Energy and Climate Change what representations he www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Balancing/Summary has received and what discussions he has had with regard to fracking in North Yorkshire. [167213] Fracking Michael Fallon: No specific representations or discussions have been had regarding hydraulic fracturing in North Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Yorkshire. All meetings between external organisations Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to and Ministers at the Department of Energy and Climate ensure that homes near shale gas extraction sites will Change are published quarterly on the Gov.UK website not be subject to increased household insurance (under Transparency and Freedom of Information) at premiums. [167115] the following link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications? Michael Fallon: On the basis of the information departments%5B%5D=department-of-energy-climate- available to Government, there is no reason to expect change&publication_type=transparenct-data that exploration activities will have any adverse effect on the insurance premiums of the properties located Ministers’ Private Offices within the vicinity of exploration activities. There has been no evidence of any such effect in the Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for UK to date, in over half a century of oil and gas Energy and Climate Change how many full-time equivalent exploration and production. Gas and oil produced from staff of each Civil Service grade are currently employed shale rock through hydraulic fracturing should be broadly in the private office of each Minister in his Department; similar to the existing gas and oil production in terms of and what the pay band of each such member of staff is. the impacts on health, local amenity, traffic movements [168717] 737W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 738W

Gregory Barker: A breakdown of private office staff, Tonnes of carbon Tonnes of carbon and their respective grades, can be found on the HM Renewable dioxide per GWh of dioxide displaced by Government website: electricity electricity supplied renewable generation in 2012 by all fossil fuels in electricity http://reference.data.gov.uk/gov-structure/organogram/ (GWh) 2012 (UK average) generation ?dept=decc&post=l UK 41,258 700 28,880,620 Renewable Energy England 22,974 700 16,081,500 Scotland 14,825 700 10,377,382 Wales 2,284 700 1,598,476 Mr Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much his Department pays in subsidy for each unit of energy produced by each form Sellafield of renewable energy. [168057] Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Michael Fallon: The Government supports large-scale and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 4 September renewable electricity generation through the Renewables 2013, Official Report, column 419W, on Sellafield, how Obligation (RO) and small-scale generation through the many employees of Nuclear Management Partners have feed-in tariff scheme (FIT). Support for renewable heat received bonuses for their work in decommissioning the generation is available through the Renewable Heat Sellafield nuclear plant in each of the last three years. Incentive (RHI). The rate of subsidy for renewable [168404] electricity per megawatt hour (MWh) supported through the Renewables Obligation is estimated to be the value Michael Fallon: For each of the years in question, the of the Levy Exemption Certificate (around £5/MWh) net full-time equivalent number of NMP Executive plus the relevant RO band multiplied by the value of a Secondees included in the total bonus payments (pursuant Renewable Obligation Certificate (ROC—worth around to the answer of 4 September 2013, Official Report, £45 in 2012-13 prices). Ofgem issues ROCs to electricity column 419W) was 19. generators in relation to the amount of eligible renewable electricity that they generate. The current ROC bands Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy for each technology supported by the RO are published and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 4 September on DECC’s website: 2013, Official Report, column 419W, on Sellafield, what https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ the highest single bonus received by an employee of attachment_data/file/211292/ro_banding_levels_2013_17.pdf Nuclear Management Partners was for their work in decommissioning the Sellafield nuclear plant in the last The generation and export tariffs relevant to the FITs three years. [168405] scheme are published on Ofgem’s website at the following location and are shown in pence per kilowatt hour: Michael Fallon: NMP is a private company. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/feed- tariff-fit-scheme/tariff-tables NMP publishes its accounts, which include information on remuneration service costs and the maximum individual Tariff payments are made by FIT licensees (electricity cost, in line with the reporting requirements set out in suppliers) direct to the FITs generators. the Companies Act 2006. The tariffs levels applicable to the renewable heat technologies supported under the RHI scheme are available Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy on Ofgem’s website at the following location and are and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 4 September shown in pence per kilowatt hour of heat generated 2013, Official Report, column 419W, on Sellafield, what (kWhth): performance criteria must be met before an employee of https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/ Nuclear Management Partners receives a bonus for renewable-heat-incentive-rhi/tariffs-and-payments their work in decommissioning the Sellafield nuclear Tariff payments are made by Ofgem directly to scheme plant. [168406] participants. Michael Fallon: The Sellafield Ltd performance incentive Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for plan, which is open to all staff, is based upon achieving Energy and Climate Change how many tonnes of targets for the business that are agreed between the carbon dioxide his Department estimates were company and the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority displaced by renewable electricity generation in (a) the (NDA) on an annual basis. The performance incentive UK, (b) England, (c) Scotland and (d) Wales in 2012 plan is structured to recognise the accomplishments of the company as well as those of the individual. for which figures are available. [168307]

Michael Fallon: The amount of carbon dioxide displaced by renewable electricity generation can be calculated as the amount of renewable electricity generation multiplied BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS by the carbon dioxide emissions intensity for electricity supplied by all fossil fuels. While renewable generation Business: Billing figures are available for each country, the emissions intensity figure is only available at UK level, so this Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for figure is used in the calculations for all countries. These Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for figures are given for the UK, England, Scotland and consultation or call for evidence on proposals to Wales in 2012 in the following table. introduce a fine for late payment. [168395] 739W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 740W

Michael Fallon: The Government carried out a Data Protection consultation on late payment last year prior to transposing an EU directive on late payment into UK law. UK John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for legislation gives companies a statutory right to charge Business, Innovation and Skills if he will assess the interest at 8% above the Bank of England base rate, and effect of data protection legislation on the ability of collect administration charges for late payment. hon. Members to act on their constituents’ behalf with We are looking at additional legislative and non-legislative regards to complaints to business and service providers. options to tackle ongoing late payment problems, ensure [168142] companies are aware of their existing statutory rights, and encourage take up of those rights. If we assess that Mrs Grant: I have been asked to reply on behalf of further legislative measures are likely to be effective and the Ministry of Justice. proportionate, we will consult on these in a timely way. The Data Protection Act (DPA) does not prevent Members of Parliament acting on behalf of their Business: Government Assistance constituents regarding complaints to business and service providers. The DPA ensures that the handling of personal data, including disclosing it to third parties, is conducted Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, in a lawful and proportionate manner, with appropriate Innovation and Skills whether investigations have been safeguards in place. Given the principles-based nature carried out by officials in his Department into allegations of the legislation it is for organisations to decide in the that coaches working on the GrowthAccelerator programme context of their own operations how to apply the Act’s are paying the fees of clients. [168183] requirements, within the limit of the law and available guidance. Michael Fallon [holding answer 9 September 2013]: The Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) provides The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills extensive guidance on data protection for both organisations (BIS) takes any allegation of malpractice very seriously. and the public, which can be accessed on its website: When this allegation was raised in an article in The www.ico.gov.uk Sunday Times on 28 July, officials asked Grant Thornton (who are responsible for delivering the GrowthAccelerator programme) to investigate. Exports They assured officials that they had found no evidence to suggest that coaches were paying clients fees. There Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for are a range of safeguards in place, including the fact Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has that it is the client’s choice, supported by their Growth made of the change in the seasonally-adjusted level of Manager and an objective matching process, to decide non-EU exports since May 2013. [168365] which coach they want support from. To date, BIS has not received any evidence of malpractice. If evidence is Michael Fallon: Estimates of the value of non-EU brought forward then I will investigate further. exports (goods only) since May 2013 are shown in the following table, taken from Table 2 in the ONS UK Trade July 2013 bulletin, released on 6 September 2013. Business: Regulation Goods exports to non-EU Change on previous Percentage change Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Month (£ billion) month (£ billion) on previous month Business, Innovation and Skills on how many May 12.8 -0.4 -3 occasions and on what dates the business taskforce on 2013 [168394] EU regulation has met since May 2010. June 14.0 +1.2 +9 2013 Michael Fallon: My right hon. Friend the Prime July 2013 11.8 -2.2 -16 Minister announced the creation of the Business Taskforce Trade statistics for any one month can be erratic. For on EU regulation at the end of June 2013. The Taskforce that reason, ONS recommend to compare the latest has met five times so far on 11 July, 19 July, 12 August, 2 three months against the preceding three months and September, and 11 September 2013. the same three months of 2012. On this basis, the change in the seasonally adjusted value of non-EU Company Accounts exports (goods only) are (as shown in Table 2 of UK Trade July 2013): Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for UK exports to Non-EU (goods only, BoP basis) Business, Innovation and Skills if he will set a deadline Three months ended: £ billion for those companies which have received letters from 2012 July 38.35 Companies House regarding disclosure of overseas 2013 April 38.28 subsidiaries who have not yet filed this information to 2013 July 38.51 bring their records up-to-date. [168398]

Percentage change, latest three Michael Fallon: Companies House has written to months compared with: Percentage each company which has not yet brought its record up Previous three months 0.6 to date, and asked that they do so before the end of Same three months last year 0.4 September. 741W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 742W

Graduates: Income Matthew Hancock: It is the Government’s priority to ensure that all adults throughout England have the basic skills they need to find and sustain employment. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for In “Skills for Sustainable Growth”(2010) the Government Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he set out that it will fully fund learning for adults to has made of additional life time earnings of graduates. improve their English (and maths skills). In “Rigour [168417] and Responsiveness in Skills” (April 2013) we affirmed that we will maintain entitlements to fully funded English Mr Willetts: There have been several studies of this (and maths) provision that supports progression to the over recent years, some commissioned by BIS and its standard of a good GCSE (A*-C) for all adult learners. predecessors, some commissioned by other organisations. To ensure that individuals are developing the right Whilst they differ in terms of methodology, time periods level of literacy skills needed for employment, we are covered and some of the underlying assumptions, they embedding effective literacy provision within our major all use a broadly similar approach, and taken together skills interventions. Our recently developed Traineeships they point to there being a substantial lifetime earnings programme for young people puts English and maths at premium for graduates due to having their degree. Looking its core, alongside work preparation and work experience. across the studies our conclusion is that over the course We have also increased the expectations for English of a working life the average graduate earns comfortably within apprenticeships. From 2014/15 all intermediate over £100,000 more in today’s valuation, net of tax, apprentices will be required to work towards achieving than someone with two or more A-levels who does not a level 2 in English, ensuring that all apprentices have go to university. literacy skills and qualifications that are widely recognised The most recent research was published in the BIS and valued by employers and others. research series in August 2013. The estimate of the As a further commitment to this agenda, the Government lifetime graduate earnings premium was higher than are taking steps to improve standards within the further previous estimates: £250,000 for women and £165,000 education system. From the academic year 2013/14; for men (see: grants of £9000 will be offered to graduates teaching https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/university- English to encourage them to teach in further education degrees-impact-on-lifecycle-of-earnings colleges. These bursaries will help us recruit the brightest This graduate premium is an average and it will vary and best teachers so we can improve standards and across individuals, subjects and institutions—however, provide people with the basic skills they need for a the evidence shows that people still tend to be financially rewarding career. better off with a degree than without. Through community learning, we also support courses aimed at improving literacy for families and individuals Industry who are most disadvantaged and furthest from learning. Final data for the 2011/12 academic year shows that there were 2,080 adult (19+) learners participating on a Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Skills for Life English course in Plymouth Sutton and Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to table Devonport parliamentary constituency, up by 13.9% on 4.1 of his Department’s document Industrial Strategy: 2010/11. UK sector analysis, published in September 2012, for which sectors the Government (a) has developed and (b) plans to develop a strategic partnership. [168396] New Businesses: Government Assistance

Michael Fallon: This year as part of the Industrial Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Strategy Government and business have jointly developed Innovation and Skills how many applications have been and published sector strategies for Aerospace, Automotive, made in total under the Start-Up Loans scheme to date; Agritech, Information Economy, Professional and Business how many such applications (a) have been successful, Services, Education, Construction, Offshore Wind, Civil (b) are currently being assessed, (c) have been rejected Nuclear, and Oil and Gas. In December 2012 a one year and (d) have drawn down funds; and what the breakdown on update to the Life Sciences strategy was published. is in each category by (i) gender of applicant, (ii) age of applicant, (iii) region and (iv) Start-Up Loans delivery In June 2013 an industry led sector strategy for partner. [168397] electronics was published, and a new strategy from the Defence Growth Partnership was launched on 9 September. A chemicals strategy will be published this autumn. Michael Fallon: 34,874 people have formally registered an interest in Start-Up Loans and 7,628 loan offers Beyond this, the Government provides support for all have been made. Since decline data has been collected sectors of the economy ranging from light touch (May 2013), 368 loans have been formally declined. A engagement, to fully coordinated sector partnerships. further 1,831 applicants have withdrawn their application. 2,929 applications are currently being assessed. Literacy Full personal information is verified and submitted by partners at point of loan drawdown. Data on gender, Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for age and location is not currently available for declined Business, Innovation and Skills what strategy the applications. However, data is available for the 6,501 Government has to improve adult literacy in (a) deprived loans drawn to date, distributed as follows: areas and (b) Devonport to ensure that people in such 36% Female; 64% Male; areas are better prepared for employment. [168024] 38% 18 to 24 years; 62% 25+ years; and 743W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 744W

43% BAME (self-report data). New Businesses: North Yorkshire By region, these are split: Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the (a) number and (b) monetary value of East 6 loans to be given to entrepreneurs in (i) Harrogate and EM 6 Knaresborough constituency and (ii) North Yorkshire Ldn 38 as a result of the start-up loans scheme. [168886] NE 5 NW 16 Michael Fallon: The Start-Up Loans Company is SE 8 only able to provide information at district level. 124 SW 5 loans have been drawn down in North Yorkshire worth £705,174, distributed as follows: WM 7 Y&H 9 District Loans Value (£)

Craven 7 29,500 By delivery partner, these are split: Hambleton 25 158,000 Harrogate 41 244,650 Number Richmondshire 14 83,450 Ryedale 2 9,500 Biz Britain 98 Scarborough 23 143,974 Bricks and Bread 33 Selby 1 2,000 Bright Ideas Trust 43 York City 11 54,100 Brightside Trust 84 Business Finance Solutions 439 Business Support and Development 124 Cloudspeed/f6s 62 CDFA 356 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Dreamstake 21 Billing East London Small Business Centre 80 Elevation Networks 269 Enterprise Lending East Midlands 113 Nick de Bois: To ask the Minister for Women and Enterprise4All 29 Equalities, how many creditors of her Department Entrepreneur Country 5 owed more than £10,000 which remained unpaid after Exodus 5 (a) 30 days, (b) 45 days, (c) 60 days, (d) 75 days and Fashion Angel 33 (e) more than 90 days in each of the last three years. Foundation East 68 [166897] GLE 112 Hull Business Development Fund 77 Mrs Grant: The number of invoices over the value of Hyndburn Enterprise Trust 41 £10,000 paid on behalf of the Government Equalities Kaleidoscope 31 Offices and that were more than 30-days after invoice Leeds City Credit Union 10 date in each of the last two years is set out in the Let’s do Business Group 156 following table. Norfolk and Waveney Enterprise 101 Services Total— Original Upstarts 9 all payments Positive Inclusions 242 taking Printing.com 24 31-45 46-60 61-75 76-90 Over 90 over 30 Prospects 10 days days days days days days Riverside Credit Union 86 2012- 10000 1 Rockstar Youth 1,070 2013 School for Start Ups 1,039 2011- 10000 1 SFEDI 47 2012 Sheffield City Council 21 The Government Equalities Office used financial systems South West Investment Group 116 provided by the Home Office from 1 April 2011 until Spring to Action 14 31 March 2013 when it moved onto the Department for Start-Up Direct 201 Culture, Media and Sport’s systems. This information Start-Up Loans London 281 is not available for earlier periods when the Government The Prince’s Trust 560 Equalities Office received financial services from the TrainETraidE 22 Department for Communities and Local Government. Transmit Start-Ups 57 University of Arts 15 Female Genital Mutilation Virgin Unite/PNE 79 WSX Enterprise 53 Helen Goodman: To ask the Minister for Women and Yorkshire Coast Enterprise 23 Equalities what recent discussions she has had with the Young Britain 123 Secretary of State for the Home Department on the Youth Enterprise 19 practice of female genital mutilation in the UK. [168233] 745W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 746W

Mrs Grant: Female genital mutilation (FGM) is an Mr Prisk: Information from the Department’s statistics unacceptable form of abuse and violence against girls shows the total number of households in temporary and women, and this Government are absolutely committed accommodation, the number of these households that to preventing and tackling FGM. contain children or expected children and the total The Ministers for Women and Equalities attend the number of children in temporary accommodation for Home Office Inter-Ministerial Group on Violence Against each local authority in the West Midlands as at 31 Women and Girls and are committed to supporting the March 2013. I am arranging for a table to be placed in Governments Action Plan to End Violence Against the Library of the House. Women and Girls. The Government Equalities Office From 9 November 2012, local authorities have new (GEO) was represented at the Home Office Ministerial powers under the Localism Act to use good-quality Roundtable on FGM on 18 July, hosted by Jeremy Browne, private rented sector accommodation to end the main Minister for Crime Prevention. GEO also attends quarterly homelessness duty. Families no longer need to be parked cross-government policy officials meetings on FGM. in temporary accommodation while they wait for social I held a roundtable meeting on International Women’s housing to become available. Day 2013 with members of the women’s sector to discuss At the same time, we have also put in place extra violence against women and girls, including FGM. protection for the most vulnerable. The Homelessness (Suitability of Accommodation) (England) Order 2012 will help prevent the use of temporary accommodation which is long distances from the families previous home COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT and community. Empty Property For households already in temporary accommodation the local authority has a duty (under section 193 of the Housing Act) to find that family settled accommodation. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Local authorities should continue to work with these Communities and Local Government how many empty households to discuss alternative housing options as homes have been brought back into use under the New they become available. Homes Bonus in (a) Barnsley Central constituency, We are investing £470 million in homelessness prevention (b) South Yorkshire and (c) England to date. [168373] over four years (2011/12 - 2014/15) to help local authorities Mr Prisk: The New Homes Bonus rewards the creation and voluntary sector partners prevent homelessness of new homes including long-term empty homes that and we are continuing to support local authorities to are brought back into use within each local authority area. raise their game with an additional £1.7 million over The net number of empty homes brought back into use two years (2012/13 - 2013/14), for a new Gold Standard for the three years since the bonus was introduced is: support and training scheme across the country to deliver the best possible service to those that are at risk for Barnsley: 249; of homelessness. for South Yorkshire (consisting of Barnsley, Doncaster, Sheffield and Rotherham authorities): 944; and Staff for England: 55,702. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Communities and Local Government how many of his Department’s jobs have been relocated from London to Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for each region of the UK in each of the last 10 years. Communities and Local Government what information [168008] his Department holds on the proportion of funding transferred from the Department of Health to his Brandon Lewis: There has been no substantive transfer Department for purposes of improving public health of jobs since the Department was established in 2006, which is being spent on (a) leisure provision, (b) although Human Resources transactional services were housing, (c) anti-social behaviour and (d) improving transferred from London to Liverpool in 2010. the environment. [168112] Comparative figures on staffing transfers are not centrally held, due to machinery of government changes Brandon Lewis: The Department of Communities since 2006 and the general restructuring of the Department. and Local Government does not hold this information. The ring-fenced Public Health Grant is transferred from the Department of Health to local authorities and EDUCATION the allocation covers both services mandated through regulation and all other services that local authorities Conditions of Employment may wish to commission locally. It is left for local authorities to decide what proportion of spending should Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for be devoted to different services. Education how many staff (a) directly employed and (b) indirectly employed through other companies by Homelessness his Department were employed on zero-hours contracts in each of the last 10 years. [168276] Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Elizabeth Truss: The Department does not currently homeless (a) children and (b) adults are in temporary employ any staff on zero hours contracts and it did not accommodation in each local authority area in the do so in any of the financial years 2010-11, 2011-12 or West Midlands. [160238] 2012-13. No records are held prior to this. 747W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 748W

Email Ministers: Training

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for what training his Department provides for newly-appointed Education if he will place in the Library a copy of all Ministers; and whether he has attended any such training internal briefings prepared for Ministers on the use of sessions since his appointment. [168367] private email accounts for the purpose of conducting official Government business in response to parliamentary questions tabled by the hon. Member Elizabeth Truss: Newly appointed Ministers receive for West Bromwich East in the (a) 2012-13 and (b) briefing on the Ministerial Code and about handling of Parliamentary Business. Ministers’ offices also arrange 2013-14 parliamentary sessions. [168368] for Ministers to be briefed on their individual policy areas and provided with additional guidance or briefing Elizabeth Truss: Briefing notes accompanying on request. parliamentary questions are confidential to the Ministers of the day and will not be placed in the Library. Public Appointments

GCSE: English Language Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education on how many occasions his Department has been granted an (a) extension and (b) exemption to a Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for ministerial appointment to a public body in accordance Education what consideration he has given to the effect with the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ Code of Ofqual’s decision to remove the Speaking and of Practice since May 2010. [168370] Listening Assessment from GCSE English and GCSE English Language on the attainment of (a) pupils with Elizabeth Truss: Since May 2010 the Department has, special educational needs, (b) pupils with speech, within its public bodies, (a) extended the term of office language and communication needs, (c) pupils with of 15 public appointees and (b) agreed one exemption. dyslexia and (d) children considered to be from more deprived backgrounds. [168312] Schools: Finance

Elizabeth Truss: The assessment of speaking and Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for listening has not been removed from GCSE English and Education how many schools financial value standard English Language. Students’ speaking and listening declarations have been received from schools in (a) skills will be reported separately on the GCSE certificate Barnsley Central constituency, (b) South Yorkshire alongside the GCSE grade, giving a more detailed picture and (c) England in the last financial year. [168374] of students’ achievements than under the previous arrangements. Mr Laws: The Schools Financial Value Standard (SFVS) was introduced to local authority maintained Ofqual has published an equality impact assessment schools in the academic year from September 2011. The of this change, which can be viewed at: SFVS does not apply to academies and free schools; http://www.ofqual.gov.uk/files/2013-04-25-equality-analysis- however all these schools are welcome to use any of the changes-to-gcse-english.pdf material associated with the standard, if they find it A copy of this document has been placed in the useful. House Library. The Education Funding Agency (EFA) analysed local authority’s Dedicated Schools Grant assurance statements for the period April 2012 to March 2013 to ensure that Government Procurement Card the SFVS process fits within the existing assurance framework so that it operates efficiently and coherently for both local authorities and the EFA. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make it his policy to reduce the The first collation of data was from September 2011 number of staff in his private ministerial office who to 31 March 2012, applicable only for those schools that hold a Government Procurement Card. [168369] did not achieve the Financial Management Standard in Schools (FMSiS) before. All the remaining schools were required to submit their SFVS forms by 31 March 2013, Elizabeth Truss: Three members of staff in the ministerial with an annual review thereafter. private office of the Secretary of State for Education, The area of the former South Yorkshire metropolitan my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath council includes Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and (Michael Gove), hold a Government Procurement Card. Sheffield local authorities: The Department strictly adheres to the Cabinet Office’s guidance governing the use of Government Procurement 70 SFVS declarations have been received from schools in Barnsley; Cards which is available at: 92 SFVS declarations have been received from schools in https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Doncaster; attachment_data/file/219671/pan-gp-card-policy.pdf 116 SFVS declarations have been received from schools in The Department has significantly reduced the number Rotherham; and of Government Procurement Cards held, from 112 in 144 SFVS declarations have been received from schools in 2009-10, to 70 in 2012-13. Sheffield. 749W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 750W

A total of 422 SFVS declarations have been received Chemical Weapons from the area of the former South Yorkshire metropolitan council. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 18,567 SFVS declarations have been received from and Commonwealth Affairs which (a) Minister and schools in England. (b) officials from his Department met the Director-General Schools: Uniforms for the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons on 23 August 2013; what matters were discussed at that meeting; and what decisions were taken. [168289] Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of the (a) Alistair Burt: Ambassador Ahmet Üzümcü (Director provision of school uniform grants and (b) cost of General for the Organisation for the Prohibition of school uniform. [168366] Chemical Weapons) visited the UK on 23 August 2013 for a private engagement at the University of Surrey: Mr Laws: It is for the governing body to decide No Ministers or officials met with Ambassador Üzümcü whether there should be a school uniform. The Department during this visit. The UK has regular engagement with has issued guidance1 to all schools on the need to Ambassador Üzümcü to discuss issues related to the consider the cost and availability of school uniforms. chemical weapons convention and the Organisation for Local authorities and academies have discretion within the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. I last met with their budgets to provide school clothing grants or offer Ambassador Üzümcü on 9 April 2013 at the Chemical other help with the cost of school clothing in cases of Weapons Convention 3rd Review Conference in The financial hardship. The Department does not collect Hague. data on school uniform costs. Israel 1 School Uniform: A Guide for Head Teachers, Governing Bodies, Academy Trusts, Free Schools and Local Authorities (2012), available at Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for http://education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/schoolethos/ Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations b0014144/schooluniform his Department has received from (a) UK and (b) other journalists working in Israel regarding delays by Social Workers the Israeli Government in issuing press card renewals. [168107] Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the latest (a) vacancy and (b) Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office turnover rates for social workers in England is in each has received several representations from one British (i) local authority and (ii) region. [168335] journalist about delays in the renewal of his press card by the Israeli authorities. We have received no other Mr Timpson: The Department does not currently representations. hold this information. We have plans in place to collect Middle East the relevant data from autumn 2013 and will make it available from March 2014. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will provide an estimate of the number of inhabitants of the Gaza FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE strip killed by Israeli bombardments of white phosphorus, with a separate estimate of the number of civilians British Council killed. [168085]

Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: We have received no reports of the use Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps UK of white phosphorus by the Israeli Defence Force in Trade and Investment takes to ensure there is no conflict Gaza since Operation Cast Lead in 2009. We have not of interest between the British Council’s role in assessing made an estimate of the number of Palestinians killed and advising on applications for support for educational by the use of white phosphorus in the Gaza strip. businesses and its role as a provider of such services. Nobel Prize: Ceremonies [167837]

Mr Willetts: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Mr Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost was of UK participation at the Nobel Prize Ceremony 2013. The British Council does not have a role in assessing [168017] UK companies applying for support to participate in UKTI-supported activities and events. All companies The Deputy Prime Minister: I attended the Nobel are subject to standard UKTI eligibility criteria. Prize Ceremony on 10 December 2012 on behalf of the UKTI and BIS have set up the Education UK Unit to UK Government. The costs of this trip have already help UK educational organisations and businesses access been published as part of the regularly quarterly release high value opportunities overseas. The unit will work of information about the Deputy Prime Minister’s overseas closely with a broad set of stakeholders and, where travel, available at the following link: there is any potential for conflict of interest, will take http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ministerial-gifts- particular care to act even-handedly between different hospitality-travel-and-meetings-with-external-organisations- providers, public or private, large or small. october-to-december-2012 751W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 752W

Shaker Aamer Alistair Burt: I called for Syria to join the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) without delay at the third CWC Review Conference on 9 April 2013. We have not Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for directly raised with our Syrian counterpart, nor made Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations to the Syrian Government, pressing progress he has made in securing the release of Shaker them to join the Chemical Weapons Convention since Aamer; and if he will make a statement. [168084] May 2010.

Alistair Burt: Mr Aamer’s case remains a high priority Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign for the British Government. We continue to make clear and Commonwealth Affairs when he (a) raised with to our US counterparts that we want him released and his Russian counterpart and (b) made representations returned to the UK as a matter of urgency. The Prime to the Russian Government on the importance of pressing Minister raised his case with President Obama at the Syria to join the Convention on the Prohibition of G8 Summit in Northern Ireland in June. He later wrote Chemical Weapons since May 2010. [168288] to President Obama reaffirming the importance the UK places on Mr Aamer’s release and return. I made Alistair Burt: I addressed all parties to the Chemical representations to the US Secretary of State on two Weapons Convention (CWC), including Russia, at the separate occasions in May. We are confident that the third CWC Review Conference on 9 April 2013. In my US Government understand the seriousness of our statement I urged all states to not ignore the situation in request. Syria, and called on Syria to join the CWC without delay. We have also used our bilateral contacts with Staff Russia to raise the importance of Syria joining the CWC.

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many of his and Commonwealth Affairs when he (a) raised with Department’s jobs have been relocated from London to his Chinese counterpart and (b) made representations each region of the UK in each of the last 10 years. to the Chinese Government on pressing Syria to join [168014] the Convention on the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons since 2010. [168290] Alistair Burt: The FCO is committed to locating staff outside London where this makes business sense. Over Alistair Burt: I addressed all parties to the chemical the last 10 years, as part of the Lyons review, we have weapons convention (CWC)—including China—at the moved staff from London to both Northgate House in 3rd CWC Review Conference on 9 April 2013. In my Milton Keynes and Hanslope Park, Hanslope. To confirm statement I urged all states to not ignore the situation in how many individual positions have moved from London Syria, and called on Syria to join the CWC without to the Southeast over the last 10 years would incur delay. We have also used our bilateral contacts with disproportionate costs. However, the following tables China to raise with them the importance of Syria set out the location of FCO-only staff in March 2008 joining the CWC. and March 2013: Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Headcount and Commonwealth Affairs when he (a) raised with Year London Outside London Total his Iranian counterpart and (b) made representations to the Iranian Government on pressing Syria to join 2013 2,611 315 2,926 the Convention on the Prohibition of Chemical 2008 2,497 176 2,673 Weapons since 2010. [168291]

Percentage Alistair Burt: I addressed all parties to the chemical Year London Outside London weapons convention (CWC)—including Iran—at the 2013 89 11 3rd CWC Review Conference on 9 April 2013. In my statement I urged all states to not ignore the situation in 2008 93 7 Syria, and called on Syria to join the CWC without These figures are for the FCO only. They do not delay. include the FCO Agencies, which are FCO Services and Wilton Park. In addition to these numbers, a majority Western Sahara of the 880 FCO Services staff are outside London working at Hanslope Park or overseas. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the EU consulted Syria the local Saharawi population before drawing up the new protocol to the EU-Morocco Fisheries Partnership Agreement. [168099] Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he (a) raised with Alistair Burt: The new Fisheries Partnership Agreement his Syrian counterpart and (b) made representations (FPA) with the Kingdom of Morocco was negotiated to the Syrian Government that Syria should join the by the European Commission on behalf of the European Convention on the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Union. The FPA between the European Union and the since May 2010. [168287] Kingdom of Morocco has not yet been agreed. 1 expect 753W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 754W the European Commission to publish proposals in the Financial year Amount recovered under POCA near future. Those proposals will be considered by both 2002 (£) the Council and the European Parliament prior to adoption. 2008-09 62,147,303 2009-10 64,403,939 Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2010-11 74,843,460 and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 2011-12 104,415,930 26 November 2012, Official Report, column 104W, on 2012-13 108,843,917 Western Sahara, whether Morocco has yet produced the evidence referred to. [168110] Crown Courts Alistair Burt: The Moroccan Economic and Social Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Council (ESC) have published reports this year which (1) what the average length of time was between a provide information on Moroccan investment in the crime being committed and the trial being completed at region which includes Western Sahara. The reports can Leicester Crown court in each of the last five years; be found at [167168] http://www.ces.ma/Pages/modele-de-developpement-regional- (2) how many Crown court trials have been pour-les-provinces-du-Sud.aspx adjourned in each of the last five years due to no judge being available, in each court; [167394] (3) what the average length of time between a crime being committed and the trial at the Crown court being JUSTICE completed is in each court in each of the last five years. [167415] Civil Proceedings Mrs Grant: The number of trial hearings which are Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for considered ineffective due to ‘judge/magistrates availability’ Justice what assessment he has made of the potential is published by court as part of the National Statistics effect on equality of arms in the legal system (a) publication ‘Court Statistics Quarterly’. following the implementation of the Jackson reforms We are overhauling the Criminal Justice System to and the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders make the court process swifter and more efficient and Act 2012 and (b) of the proposed increase to the small recently launched our ‘CJS Strategy and Action Plan’ claims limit. [166843] which includes steps to address the number of cracked and ineffective trials including increasing digital working Jeremy Wright: In July last year the Government and improved case management of files. published an impact assessment of the Jackson reforms The proportion of trials which are ineffective at the contained in Part 2 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Crown court has remained stable between 2007 and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. The Government 2012 at around 13%. The proportion of effective trials will review the effect of the reforms, which generally has increased since Q4 2010 (44%) to Q1 2013 (51%). came into effect on 1 April 2013, within three to five See Table 1 for the number of ineffective trial hearings years of implementation. due to ‘judge availability’, Crown Court, England and An impact assessment on the potential effects of the Wales, 2008-12. proposal to increase the ‘small claims limit’ for personal The average length of time taken from offence to injury claims was published with the consultation paper completion for cases in the Crown court is published ‘Reducing the number and costs of whiplash claims’. A quarterly by court as part of the National Statistics’ revised impact assessment will be published alongside publication ‘Court Statistics Quarterly’. the Government’s response to the consultation later Published timeliness totals relate to all case outcomes this year. (e.g. those acquitted as well as found guilty)—it is not possible to discern the timeliness of trial only Crown Confiscation Orders court cases from these data. See Table 2 for the average (mean) time from offence Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to completion in weeks, Crown court cases, by Crown what the value was of orders enforced under the court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in each of the last five 2013. years. [168298] All breakdowns provided can also be found as part of the transparency files on the Justice website at the Mrs Grant: The amount recovered from confiscation following link: orders, under the Proceeds of Crime Act (2002), is https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ recorded in the following table. attachment_data/file/207806/court-stats-q1-main-tables.xls

Table 1: Ineffective trial hearings1 due to ‘judge/magistrates availability’, Crown court, England and Wales, 2008-122

Trial hearings

2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Aylesbury Crown Court Trials hearings 222 193 153 358 417

Ineffective trial hearings 22 18 20 44 68 755W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 756W

Table 1: Ineffective trial hearings1 due to ‘judge/magistrates availability’, Crown court, England and Wales, 2008-122 Trial hearings 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Judge/magistrates availability 2 1 1 1 1 Barnstaple Crown Court Trials hearings 11 11 19 17 16 Ineffective trial hearings 2 — — — — Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Barrow-in-Furness Crown Trials hearings 79 65 54 63 62 Court Ineffective trial hearings 14 6 8 10 7 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Basildon Combined Court Trials hearings 462 591 637 605 635 Ineffective trial hearings 35 22 22 25 61 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — — — Birmingham Crown Court Trials hearings 1,213 1,264 1,180 1,164 1,143 Ineffective trial hearings 90 122 95 119 95 Judge/magistrates availability — — 1 — — Blackfriars Crown Court Trials hearings 628 775 854 852 803 Ineffective trial hearings 103 111 145 141 147 Judge/magistrates availability 2 1 3 3 1 Bolton Combined Court Centre Trials hearings 512 463 390 371 383 Ineffective trial hearings 44 58 46 30 45 Judge/magistrates availability 1 1 1 — 1 Bournemouth Crown Court Trials hearings 203 244 257 274 221 Ineffective trial hearings 4 24 25 28 18 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 1 — Bradford Combined Court Trials hearings 720 796 1,020 905 721 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 123 115 160 119 81 Judge/magistrates availability 1 4 4 2 4 Bristol Crown Court Trials hearings 580 597 712 708 570 Ineffective trial hearings 83 80 150 143 89 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 1 2 Burnley Combined Court Trials hearings 247 259 327 345 268 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 30 43 42 74 60 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — 1 3 Caernarfon Crown Court Trials hearings 89 97 84 115 157 Ineffective trial hearings 4 4 8 6 15 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — — — Cambridge Crown Court Trials hearings 246 342 331 318 355 Ineffective trial hearings 26 50 50 42 64 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 2 — — Cardiff Crown Court Trials hearings 884 803 893 841 826 Ineffective trial hearings 87 82 100 108 94 Judge/magistrates availability — — 1 1 1 Carlisle Combined Court Trials hearings 296 320 341 318 256 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 49 39 48 41 40 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — 1 Carmarthen Crown Court Trials hearings 87 87 98 126 118 Ineffective trial hearings 3 10 1 7 12 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — — — Canterbury Combined Court Trials hearings 354 384 392 302 397 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 47 70 52 42 54 Judge/magistrates availability 1 1 1 3 2 Central Criminal Court Trials hearings 422 714 843 696 651 Ineffective trial hearings 79 128 172 137 141 Judge/magistrates availability 3 4 4 — 4 Chelmsford Crown Court Trials hearings 321 379 388 372 285 757W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 758W

Table 1: Ineffective trial hearings1 due to ‘judge/magistrates availability’, Crown court, England and Wales, 2008-122 Trial hearings 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Ineffective trial hearings 40 35 27 30 19 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — 1 — — Chester Crown Court Trials hearings 250 219 193 178 289 Ineffective trial hearings 19 17 16 25 37 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 1 2 Chichester Combined Court Trials hearings 150 195 213 191 172 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 11 25 32 34 44 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — 2 — — Coventry Combined Court Trials hearings 192 148 158 214 170 Centre3 Ineffective trial hearings 13 10 19 26 16 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Croydon Crown Court Trials hearings 826 940 988 918 1,004 Ineffective trial hearings 114 133 138 130 158 Judge/magistrates availability 1 1 2 — 1 Derby Combined Court Centre Trials hearings 448 468 509 557 412 Ineffective trial hearings 63 57 74 83 62 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — 5 Doncaster Crown Court Trials hearings 204 239 315 247 189 Ineffective trial hearings 20 18 43 36 30 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — 3 — Durham Crown Court Trials hearings 324 347 380 321 299 Ineffective trial hearings 45 37 62 59 43 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — 1 — Exeter Combined Court Centre Trials hearings 218 214 214 174 185 Ineffective trial hearings 10 10 17 6 14 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — — — Gloucester Crown Court Trials hearings 173 166 180 154 164 Ineffective trial hearings 23 23 27 18 16 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — 1 1 Great Grimsby Combined Trials hearings 236 234 236 234 195 Court Centre Ineffective trial hearings 11 6 20 10 13 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — 1 Guildford Crown Court Trials hearings 292 469 491 457 441 Ineffective trial hearings 42 85 97 78 86 Judge/magistrates availability 2 1 1 — — Harrow Crown Court Trials hearings 706 807 810 838 758 Ineffective trial hearings 105 107 120 123 102 Judge/magistrates availability — 3 9 4 1 Haverfordwest Crown Court Trials hearings 36 41 50 54 54 Ineffective trial hearings 1 5 2 5 6 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Inner London Crown Court Trials hearings 1,175 1,148 1,156 1,180 1,128 Ineffective trial hearings 222 253 222 232 248 Judge/magistrates availability 8 5 2 8 5 Ipswich Crown Court Trials hearings 251 273 347 331 255 Ineffective trial hearings 20 23 46 31 42 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — 2 3 Isle of Wight Combined Court Trials hearings 74 94 86 64 74 Ineffective trial hearings 4 9 10 4 7 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — 1 1 — Isleworth Crown Court Trials hearings 700 1,062 1,329 1,532 1,325 Ineffective trial hearings 91 174 180 231 227 Judge/magistrates availability 1 2 — 3 3 759W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 760W

Table 1: Ineffective trial hearings1 due to ‘judge/magistrates availability’, Crown court, England and Wales, 2008-122 Trial hearings 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Kingston-upon-Hull Combined Trials hearings 378 397 457 475 364 Court Centre Ineffective trial hearings 30 25 50 88 44 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — 2 1 Kingston-upon-Thames Crown Trials hearings 1,041 1,040 1,445 1,084 718 Court Ineffective trial hearings 141 155 210 157 71 Judge/magistrates availability — 2 2 1 1 Lancaster Crown Court Trials hearings 101 70 104 95 82 Ineffective trial hearings 12 7 25 22 12 Judge/magistrates availability — — 1 — — Leeds Combined Court Centre Trials hearings 1,029 1,057 1,154 1,030 1,077 Ineffective trial hearings 122 115 123 101 138 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — 2 — Leicester Crown Court Trials hearings 485 503 580 720 600 Ineffective trial hearings 77 92 122 195 131 Judge/magistrates availability — 3 2 2 7 Lewes Combined Court Centre Trials hearings 867 1,036 1,000 869 678 Ineffective trial hearings 124 195 182 171 122 Judge/magistrates availability 7 4 6 3 4 Lincoln Crown Court Trials hearings 198 232 241 228 281 Ineffective trial hearings 21 31 31 40 50 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — — — Liverpool Crown Court Trials hearings 1,431 1,357 1,479 1,112 1,214 Ineffective trial hearings 112 144 134 107 94 Judge/magistrates availability 1 1 — 1 — Luton Crown Court Trials hearings 364 395 492 533 475 Ineffective trial hearings 32 42 71 58 86 Judge/magistrates availability — — 1 2 1 Maidstone Combined Court Trials hearings 479 629 686 612 548 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 59 96 92 112 83 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — 1 2 — Manchester Crown Court Trials hearings 863 934 1,067 1,006 955 (Crown Square) Ineffective trial hearings 95 109 146 125 146 Judge/magistrates availability — 2 — 1 4 Manchester Crown Court Trials hearings 797 831 896 922 922 (Minshull St) Ineffective trial hearings 76 73 99 102 119 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — 3 Merthyr Tydfil Combined Trials hearings 38 248 307 288 248 Court Centre Ineffective trial hearings 1 14 45 29 29 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — 2 — Mold Crown Court Trials hearings 367 328 319 221 228 Ineffective trial hearings 37 25 19 24 23 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 2 1 Newcastle-upon-Tyne Trials hearings 1,020 1,118 983 1,014 934 Combined Court Centre Ineffective trial hearings 126 113 132 146 132 Judge/magistrates availability 4 2 3 1 2 Northampton Combined Court Trials hearings 239 232 275 367 398 Ineffective trial hearings 11 9 9 28 47 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 1 — Norwich Combined Court Trials hearings 230 311 305 350 330 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 20 30 31 44 46 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 1 — 761W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 762W

Table 1: Ineffective trial hearings1 due to ‘judge/magistrates availability’, Crown court, England and Wales, 2008-122 Trial hearings 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Nottingham Crown Court Trials hearings 485 601 531 641 608 Ineffective trial hearings 52 74 76 97 76 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 — — 2 Oxford Combined Court Centre Trials hearings 357 433 385 372 347 Ineffective trial hearings 50 97 53 61 53 Judge/magistrates availability 3 1 1 — — Peterborough Combined Court Trials hearings 307 417 425 402 263 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 30 66 66 69 19 Judge/magistrates availability 3 1 2 2 — Plymouth Combined Court Trials hearings 121 157 193 215 215 Ineffective trial hearings 13 8 20 23 17 Judge/magistrates availability — — 1 — 1 Portsmouth Combined Court Trials hearings 320 368 394 364 363 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 26 63 63 69 48 Judge/magistrates availability — 2 3 1 2 Preston Combined Court + Trials hearings 807 824 982 1,027 861 Preston Crown Court (Sessions House) Ineffective trial hearings 109 144 170 187 136 Judge/magistrates availability — — 2 — — Reading Crown Court Trials hearings 520 578 895 668 570 Ineffective trial hearings 80 94 201 129 95 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 4 1 2 St. Albans Crown Court Trials hearings 428 474 596 559 486 Ineffective trial hearings 63 66 99 76 71 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — 3 Salisbury Law Courts Trials hearings 51 55 54 56 72 Ineffective trial hearings 9 2 2 10 13 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Sheffield Combined Court Trials hearings 713 785 852 716 603 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 87 82 123 99 77 Judge/magistrates availability 2 1 1 — 4 Shrewsbury Crown Court Trials hearings 106 121 136 120 111 Ineffective trial hearings 7 12 12 7 6 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Snaresbrook Crown Court Trials hearings 1,599 1,680 1,879 1,762 1,554 Ineffective trial hearings 242 260 284 311 262 Judge/magistrates availability 7 3 2 8 2 Southampton Combined Court Trials hearings 354 371 453 375 382 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 34 54 56 57 54 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 1 — 2 Southwark Crown Court Trials hearings 799 856 981 949 672 Ineffective trial hearings 91 85 116 110 108 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — — — Stafford Combined Court Trials hearings 299 226 266 204 181 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 23 19 26 17 15 Judge/magistrates availability — — 1 — — Stoke-on-Trent Combined Trials hearings 253 241 240 223 246 Court Ineffective trial hearings 26 19 19 20 31 Judge/magistrates availability 1 1 — 2 — Swansea Crown Court Trials hearings 295 277 236 286 238 Ineffective trial hearings 22 28 9 17 23 Judge/magistrates availability — 3 — — — 763W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 764W

Table 1: Ineffective trial hearings1 due to ‘judge/magistrates availability’, Crown court, England and Wales, 2008-122 Trial hearings 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Swindon Combined Court Trials hearings 149 157 181 134 111 Ineffective trial hearings 12 13 16 10 12 Judge/magistrates availability 2 — — — — Taunton Crown Court Trials hearings 148 138 164 165 143 Ineffective trial hearings 27 23 39 35 23 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Teesside Combined Court Trials hearings 1,088 1,001 1,016 849 756 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 123 124 142 111 95 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Truro Crown Court Trials hearings 136 146 150 218 191 Ineffective trial hearings 12 12 21 38 32 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 1 4 Warwick Combined Court Trials hearings 171 189 191 189 296 Ineffective trial hearings 12 18 21 21 36 Judge/magistrates availability 1 2 2 — — Weymouth and Dorchester Trials hearings 57 69 72 64 85 Combined Court Centre Ineffective trial hearings 5 3 3 6 6 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Winchester Combined Court Trials hearings 267 253 356 337 318 Centre Ineffective trial hearings 24 25 41 64 55 Judge/magistrates availability — 1 1 2 4 Wolverhampton Combined Trials hearings 492 532 606 581 598 Court Centre Ineffective trial hearings 33 44 67 44 58 Judge/magistrates availability 1 — — — 2 Wood Green Crown Court Trials hearings 777 863 925 857 843 Ineffective trial hearings 53 62 55 49 43 Judge/magistrates availability — — — — — Woolwich Crown Court Trials hearings 611 675 975 997 1,176 Ineffective trial hearings 58 77 202 222 149 Judge/magistrates availability — — 3 5 — Worcester Combined Court Trials hearings 246 289 380 398 381 Ineffective trial hearings 14 23 40 51 38 Judge/magistrates availability 2 2 — — 1 York Crown Court Trials hearings 271 320 329 364 312 Ineffective trial hearings 37 45 62 87 53 Judge/magistrates availability — — — 2 1

England and Wales Trials hearings 35,985 39,262 43,261 41,412 38,432 Ineffective trial hearings 4,169 4,926 5,921 5,923 5,338 Judge/magistrates availability 67 66 76 84 96 ‘—’ = Nil 1 A trial that does not go ahead on the scheduled trial date due to action or inaction by one or more of the prosecution, the defence or the court and a further listing for trial is required. 2 Latest data available annual totals as published in Court Statistics Quarterly on 20th June 2013. 3 Coventry Crown court (from January 2012) is no longer a full time hearing venue, with cases heard at other venues, e.g. Warwick. Source: Criminal Court Statistics, Justice Statistics Analytical Services Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Aylesbury Crown Defendants in 165 182 219 250 267 238 166 148 172 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter 765W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 766W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Average time 46 42 40 38 49 45 46 41 34 from offence to overall completion (wks) Basildon Defendants in 474 443 459 408 404 419 371 347 411 Combined Court linked dataset + Southend with cases Crown Court completing in the quarter Average time 47 41 42 48 46 41 40 40 38 from offence to overall completion (wks) Birmingham Defendants in 739 681 897 864 715 749 742 770 839 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 48 44 45 38 43 44 42 38 45 from offence to overall completion (wks) Blackfriars Crown Defendants in 497 427 450 415 433 364 377 373 358 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 44 42 51 45 54 55 41 52 48 from offence to overall completion (wks) Bolton Combined Defendants in 423 349 405 335 342 338 301 247 245 Court Centre linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 44 42 41 40 48 39 45 42 46 from offence to overall completion (wks) Bournemouth Defendants in 204 142 177 131 127 127 125 109 105 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 56 48 45 44 49 48 63 41 45 from offence to overall completion (wks) Bradford Defendants in 641 632 608 633 530 474 491 442 480 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 49 51 50 46 44 45 48 43 47 from offence to overall completion (wks) Bristol Crown Defendants in 554 481 487 499 477 476 455 537 419 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 46 50 51 46 44 54 42 42 43 from offence to overall completion (wks) 767W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 768W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Burnley Defendants in 264 252 261 203 201 186 195 213 196 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 51 39 43 46 46 47 40 44 44 from offence to overall completion (wks) Cambridge Crown Defendants in 202 186 211 191 183 171 223 186 167 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 56 43 44 39 43 46 48 47 45 from offence to overall completion (wks) Canterbury Defendants in 268 241 279 237 239 246 217 211 256 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 49 51 39 42 55 47 50 46 43 from offence to overall completion (wks) Cardiff Crown Defendants in 747 683 595 687 590 566 639 645 646 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 39 38 39 40 41 44 42 34 42 from offence to overall completion (wks) Carlisle Defendants in 235 229 256 221 207 182 149 163 173 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 43 35 38 39 42 36 34 34 32 from offence to overall completion (wks)

Central Criminal Defendants in 272 248 294 241 215 205 231 241 217 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 56 56 63 66 62 62 61 62 51 from offence to overall completion (wks) Chelmsford Defendants in 392 327 324 319 342 263 266 221 276 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 43 42 39 41 47 42 46 45 44 from offence to overall completion (wks) Chester Crown Defendants in 344 311 243 246 270 312 282 280 297 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter 769W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 770W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Average time 45 35 37 41 48 42 42 44 41 from offence to overall completion (wks) Chichester Defendants in 102 92 125 66 95 82 64 71 70 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 50 47 53 56 52 49 47 55 53 from offence to overall completion (wks) Coventry Defendants in 157155169187————— Combined Court linked dataset Centre6 with cases completing in the quarter Average time 44484132————— from offence to overall completion (wks) Croydon Crown Defendants in 421 424 409 433 433 426 413 447 428 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 52 45 56 51 45 54 46 41 40 from offence to overall completion (wks) Derby Combined Defendants in 502 402 382 441 371 380 354 301 330 Court Centre linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 45 45 42 42 43 42 36 40 37 from offence to overall completion (wks) Doncaster Crown Defendants in 239 165 185 176 142 183 175 58 6 Court6 linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 45 47 37 37 43 31 34 48 29 from offence to overall completion (wks) Durham Crown Defendants in 234 200 239 229 190 210 190 198 185 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 34 34 34 36 41 40 34 38 38 from offence to overall completion (wks) Exeter Combined Defendants in 239 226 192 174 140 182 176 159 154 Court Centre linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 46 50 41 55 55 58 57 47 59 from offence to overall completion (wks) 771W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 772W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Gloucester Crown Defendants in 168 144 162 151 152 149 140 158 154 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 51 39 45 42 44 41 44 50 48 from offence to overall completion (wks) Great Grimsby Defendants in 215 203 188 196 188 150 146 153 186 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 39 40 39 38 46 45 35 41 32 from offence to overall completion (wks) Guildford Crown Defendants in 264 282 278 272 239 254 289 235 242 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 49 46 49 46 48 42 47 42 48 from offence to overall completion (wks) Harrow Crown Defendants in 425 439 432 443 451 358 377 369 289 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 39 45 41 41 41 44 40 40 48 from offence to overall completion (wks) Inner London Defendants in 532 436 516 567 482 421 426 372 311 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 58 53 47 34 41 45 43 50 52 from offence to overall completion (wks) Ipswich Crown Defendants in 286 245 230 209 175 163 259 220 226 Court + Bury St linked dataset Edmunds Crown with cases Court completing in the quarter Average time 44 49 46 46 53 44 38 43 43 from offence to overall completion (wks) Isle of Wight Defendants in 67 60 68 65 48 68 61 36 58 Combined Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 32 55 43 42 44 43 38 37 29 from offence to overall completion (wks) Isleworth Crown Defendants in 788 772 790 684 589 630 542 527 593 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter 773W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 774W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Average time 40 40 40 37 42 39 41 38 37 from offence to overall completion (wks) Kingston-upon- Defendants in 309 288 430 347 281 351 296 286 287 Hull Combined linked dataset Court Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 40 37 35 42 45 42 39 39 36 from offence to overall completion (wks) Kingston-upon- Defendants in 582 489 525 367 383 249 282 271 329 Thames Crown linked dataset Court with cases completing in the quarter Average time 49 40 36 49 48 53 56 53 49 from offence to overall completion (wks) Leeds Combined Defendants in 865 712 796 780 804 783 841 844 915 Court Centre linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 45 42 47 47 45 42 43 41 40 from offence to overall completion (wks) Leicester Crown Defendants in 443 443 407 409 365 396 400 367 333 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 49 49 54 51 51 51 43 54 53 from offence to overall completion (wks) Lewes Combined Defendants in 537 429 455 395 367 395 385 302 371 Court Centre linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 48 45 46 42 47 45 43 48 42 from offence to overall completion (wks) Lincoln Crown Defendants in 186 170 173 183 160 213 197 223 181 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 55 50 48 44 53 55 47 55 55 from offence to overall completion (wks) Liverpool Crown Defendants in 1,162 881 873 908 820 862 937 839 801 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 48 41 42 44 47 48 45 45 42 from offence to overall completion (wks) 775W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 776W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Luton Crown Defendants in 322 255 285 237 262 240 240 205 196 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 42 53 51 44 44 46 57 48 53 from offence to overall completion (wks) Maidstone Defendants in 410 357 387 292 304 352 249 296 270 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 55 62 51 51 52 46 52 45 51 from offence to overall completion (wks) Manchester Defendants in 765 630 701 557 522 595 612 595 624 Crown Court linked dataset (Crown Square) with cases completing in the quarter Average time 48 46 45 46 51 48 41 42 48 from offence to overall completion (wks) Manchester Defendants in 842 757 696 672 590 606 500 531 491 Crown Court linked dataset (Minshull St) with cases completing in the quarter Average time 50 46 44 48 46 48 43 44 39 from offence to overall completion (wks) Merthyr Tydfil Defendants in 228 192 170 191 185 189 198 201 167 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 35 33 27 37 33 35 30 29 28 from offence to overall completion (wks) Mold Crown Defendants in 214 329 232 232 245 264 279 235 171 Court + linked dataset Welshpool Crown with cases Court completing in the quarter Average time 41 37 39 39 44 40 42 44 42 from offence to overall completion (wks) Newcastle-upon- Defendants in 882 770 766 761 673 647 606 689 663 Tyne Combined linked dataset Court Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 41 39 39 47 43 44 47 44 41 from offence to overall completion (wks) Northampton Defendants in 288 283 285 343 248 273 256 282 262 Combined Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter 777W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 778W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Average time 48 53 54 47 52 46 49 50 43 from offence to overall completion (wks) Norwich Defendants in 341 279 309 333 241 261 252 217 216 Combined Court linked dataset Centre + King’s with cases Lynn Crown completing in Court the quarter Average time 37 39 36 38 40 50 33 49 39 from offence to overall completion (wks) Nottingham Defendants in 755 618 630 596 613 638 659 567 558 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 40 43 38 38 41 40 39 38 40 from offence to overall completion (wks) Oxford Combined Defendants in 187 176 201 175 188 161 189 189 235 Court Centre linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 51 53 45 47 63 49 48 44 53 from offence to overall completion (wks) Peterborough Defendants in 270 263 264 259 233 154 163 193 163 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 41 37 41 41 39 37 37 39 44 from offence to overall completion (wks) Plymouth Defendants in 182 159 160 116 146 140 132 161 101 Combined Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 46 52 52 54 52 62 48 57 51 from offence to overall completion (wks) Portsmouth Defendants in 249 205 230 183 193 196 208 191 153 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 57 50 47 48 50 55 47 46 44 from offence to overall completion (wks) Preston Defendants in 881 827 787 776 765 758 688 662 650 Combined Court linked dataset + Preston Crown with cases Court (Sessions completing in House) the quarter Average time 41 42 41 42 45 43 44 40 42 from offence to overall completion (wks) 779W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 780W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Reading Crown Defendants in 297 305 284 275 294 239 242 286 234 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 53 49 57 50 48 50 51 48 51 from offence to overall completion (wks) Salisbury Law Defendants in 43 24 29 23 23 28 46 33 31 Courts linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 43 75 46 67 87 66 79 78 46 from offence to overall completion (wks) Sheffield Defendants in 591 508 560 550 466 474 469 581 663 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 35 36 34 33 33 35 39 35 38 from offence to overall completion (wks) Shrewsbury Defendants in 127 99 111 135 120 117 86 83 108 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 44 42 50 48 42 48 36 58 44 from offence to overall completion (wks) Snaresbrook Defendants in 905 733 826 693 697 685 637 663 618 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 45 42 47 41 48 46 42 49 45 from offence to overall completion (wks) Southampton Defendants in 233 238 249 226 209 233 223 193 226 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 50 45 43 49 54 46 45 51 39 from offence to overall completion (wks) Southwark Crown Defendants in 496 448 415 431 409 346 296 323 305 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 68 64 64 55 53 71 60 59 60 from offence to overall completion (wks) St. Albans Crown Defendants in 322 298 354 291 280 309 292 333 304 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter 781W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 782W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Average time 50 47 50 52 52 50 48 49 44 from offence to overall completion (wks) Stafford Defendants in 239 208 195 229 186 170 163 178 189 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 57 46 47 48 50 71 48 46 46 from offence to overall completion (wks) Stoke-on-Trent Defendants in 228 201 197 217 213 214 197 214 157 Combined Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 45 41 43 40 60 57 41 41 34 from offence to overall completion (wks) Swansea Crown Defendants in 386 272 351 354 247 285 291 344 342 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 41 40 41 42 51 45 45 40 46 from offence to overall completion (wks) Swindon Defendants in 94 107 133 112 91 99 99 95 106 Combined Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 47 42 41 55 40 46 53 68 45 from offence to overall completion (wks) Taunton Crown Defendants in 107 111 142 113 101 95 128 112 123 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 59 46 42 52 53 32 37 50 42 from offence to overall completion (wks) Teesside Defendants in 501 448 516 465 485 491 361 369 429 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 42 45 41 43 45 42 40 38 39 from offence to overall completion (wks) Truro Crown Defendants in 157 154 166 170 131 162 111 119 120 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 56 57 52 50 60 50 44 60 44 from offence to overall completion (wks) 783W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 784W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Warwick Defendants in 236 153 208 175 198 250 236 265 282 Combined Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 42 49 42 57 48 46 58 43 45 from offence to overall completion (wks) Weymouth and Defendants in 37 41 34 47 37 56 49 47 41 Dorchester linked dataset Combined Court with cases Centre completing in the quarter Average time 41 49 35 57 62 61 44 55 56 from offence to overall completion (wks) Winchester Defendants in 237 210 226 235 220 236 199 202 192 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 54 51 44 47 45 50 42 54 45 from offence to overall completion (wks) Wolverhampton Defendants in 595 499 555 454 478 417 497 460 480 Combined Court linked dataset Centre with cases completing in the quarter Average time 45 43 45 37 48 43 41 41 42 from offence to overall completion (wks) Wood Green Defendants in 492 434 524 572 476 462 510 493 434 Crown Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 39 36 34 28 42 41 37 46 43 from offence to overall completion (wks) Woolwich Crown Defendants in 318 375 388 544 531 506 520 457 411 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 45 39 37 38 44 42 38 41 43 from offence to overall completion (wks) Worcester Defendants in 183 151 154 122 140 139 160 151 165 Combined Court linked dataset + Hereford with cases Crown Court completing in the quarter Average time 61 65 47 56 50 58 45 44 51 from offence to overall completion (wks) Yo rk C row n Defendants in 260 222 270 232 213 244 243 202 210 Court linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter 785W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 786W

Table 2: Average time from offence to completion in weeks1, by Crown court, England and Wales, January 2011 to March 20132,3,4,5 Defendants and weeks 2011 2012 2013 Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Apr to Oct to Jan to Crown court Outcome Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar Jun Jul to Sep Dec Mar

Average time 43 50 48 41 43 41 41 46 46 from offence to overall completion (wks)

England and Defendants in 29,044 25,810 27,179 25,950 24,216 24,120 23,625 23,012 22,796 Wales linked dataset with cases completing in the quarter Average time 46 44 44 43 46 46 44 44 43 from offence to overall completion (wks) ‘—’ = Nil 1 Completed cases are where a final decision has been reached—this includes both acquittals and sentences following guilty findings. 2 Excludes breaches and cases with an offence to completion time greater than 10 years. 3 Statistics are sourced from the CREST linked court data and included around 95% of completed cases. 4 Only one offence is counted for each defendant in the case. If two or more cases complete on the same day, the case with the longest duration is included. 5 Included all criminal cases which have received a verdict and concluded in the specified time period, in the Crown court. 6 Coventry (from January 2012) and Doncaster (from January 2013) Crown court centres are no longer full-time hearing venues, with cases heard at other venues, e.g. Warwick and Sheffield. Source: Criminal Court Statistics, Justice Statistics Analytical Services

Electronic Tagging Legal Aid Scheme

Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the cost of the audit by PricewaterhouseCoopers what estimate he has made of the financial and into the electronic monitoring contracts held by G4S administrative cost on legal businesses of the requirement and Serco in England and Wales is expected to be. proposed in his Department’s consultation, Transforming [162828] Legal Aid, to assess whether EEA nationals have enjoyed a right to reside in the UK for 12 months; and what Jeremy Wright: We do not yet have a figure for the estimate he has made of the average number of hours total cost of auditing the electronic monitoring contracts, per EEA national client it will take a legal aid contractor as audit work is still being carried out. to assess whether EEA nationals have enjoyed a right to reside in the UK for 12 months. [159579] Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice on what date PricewaterhouseCoopers was Jeremy Wright: As part of our consultation commissioned to carry out the audit into the electronic “Transforming Legal aid: delivering a more credible monitoring contracts held by G4S and Serco in and efficient system” we published an impact assessment England and Wales. [162872] which is available at https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ Jeremy Wright: We commissioned Pricewaterhouse transforming-legal-aid Coopers to carry out a detailed audit of the electronic- The impact assessment provides that there may be monitoring contracts held by both G4S and Serco in one-off familiarisation costs for providers associated May 2013. with the introduction of the proposed residency test. Providers may also face increased costs in assessing European Court of Human Rights whether or a not a case qualifies for legal aid and in retaining evidence on file for audit purposes. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for We are currently analysing responses and will ensure Justice what estimate his Department has made of the that we have fully assessed any risks or impacts our cost to the public purse of implementing the judgments proposals may have before making a decision. of the European Court of Human Rights since 1998. [166302] Michael Turner Mrs Grant: The measures taken to implement judgments, and the costs and benefits of such measures, can vary Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice considerably depending on the circumstances of the (1) how many times he has met Michael Turner, Head case, and some can be included in wider changes to of the Criminal Bar Association, in the last year; policy or legislation. Therefore, the provision of accurate [167134] estimates of the total costs associated with the (2) what recent discussions he has had with Michael implementation of the judgments of the ECtHR since Turner regarding the Government’s proposals for 1998 is not possible. criminal legal aid. [167135] 787W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 788W

Jeremy Wright: The Lord Chancellor and Secretary bans, CCTV surveillance in most social visits areas and of State for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member low-level furniture in social visits areas in all category C for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), has met regularly prisons and above, to make it more difficult to pass with the legal profession to discuss the Transforming drugs; deployment of technology to detect and disrupt Legal Aid proposals. This includes meetings with the mobile phones, and analysis of recovered handsets and Law Society, Bar Council, Circuit Leaders and roundtable SIM cards; and a comprehensive programme of mandatory meetings with Law Society members. drug testing for prisoners with disciplinary sanctions The Secretary of State for Justice has not met Michael for those testing positive. Criminal proceedings are Turner QC. However, Lord McNally, lead Minister for invoked against visitors and prisoners alike wherever legal aid at the MOJ met Mr Turner on 30 May 2013. sufficient evidence exists of an attempt to supply. The Department publishes quarterly meetings between The reduction in numbers of dogs across the prison Ministers and all external organisations. Quarters from estate is largely due to efficiency savings and also the March 2013 will be published in due course. This can be formation of area based specialist search teams to make found at: resources more flexible. Area based search teams provide https://www.gov.uk/government/publications a level of dog searching depending on risk and level of ?departments%5B%5D=ministry-of- threat by way of a service level agreement. justice&publication_type=transparency-data All figures have been drawn from live administrative data systems which may be amended at any time. Although Prisons care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the prison performance rating was for HM Prison (a) Blundeston, (b) Dorchester, (c) Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Northallerton and (d) Reading in the latest period for what assessment he has made of the pilot study of which figures are available. [168141] drug-free prison wings; and when he intends to publish the outcome of that project. [166534] Jeremy Wright: The annual prison performance ratings for 2012-13 were published by the Ministry of Justice Jeremy Wright: The Government is committed to on 25 July 2013 at the following location: increasing the number of drug free wings in prisons, https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ where increased security measures prevent access to attachment_data/file/225226/prison-annual-per-ratings-12- drugs. 13.pdf Evaluation of the pilot of these wings will begin once the pilot concludes at the end of September. I expect the Prisons: Drugs evaluation to be completed by the end of March 2014. I will consider whether and how to publish the evaluation Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State carefully. It may be that publication of the evaluation, for Justice how many (a) passive and (b) active drug containing details of measures that are effective in dogs there were at each prison establishment in reducing drug availability in prisons, could compromise England and Wales in each of the last four years; and if the effectiveness of those measures if they are placed he will make a statement. [166347] into the public domain.

Jeremy Wright: Drug misuse in prisons, as measured by Mandatory Drug Testing (MDT), has continued on Property a downward trend. In 2011-12, 1% of prisoners tested positive for drug misuse, compared to 24.4% in 1996-97. The total number of passive and active drug detection Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice dogs in prison establishments in England and Wales in (1) what progress his Department has made in reducing each of the last four years is given in the following table. its central London estate; [166032] (2) what progress his Department has made in its Number of passive Number of active plans to relocate 1000 posts out of London by 2015. drug dogs drug dogs [166027] 2010 225 226 2011 201 203 Mrs Grant: Since April 2010, we have reduced the 2012 171 173 central London administrative estate from 18 to seven 2013 159 158 buildings with a target of having just two core buildings by 2015. Across the whole MOJ estate, we have already Data has not been provided on an individual prison reduced the number of properties from 185 to 111. This basis for security reasons. Placing such information on has resulted in savings of about £41 million per annum the public record would expose to those who may wish with a target reduction of £47 million per annum by to smuggle drugs into prisons the extent of each prison’s 2015. specific drug dog capability. Around 500 Posts from the Office of the Public Prisons deploy a range of robust security measures to Guardian have relocated from London to Birmingham. reduce drug supply—including passive and active search The Office of the Public Guardian is an executive dogs, ’closed’ visits (ie through a glass screen) or visit agency of the Ministry of Justice. As part of its Estate 789W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 790W

Transformation Programme, the MOJ is promoting Authority to the Trafficking Victim support Scheme flexible workspace in its central London estate with a operated by the Salvation Army since June 2010. 70% desking ratio (seven desks to 10 full time equivalent [168330] employees). Salvation Army Mrs Grant: The Salvation Army has administered the Government-funded support service for adult victims Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for of human trafficking in England and Wales since 1 July Justice if he will list by (a) region and (b) month the (i) 2011. Details on the referrals received from the Gangmasters nationality, (ii) gender and (iii) age of each suspected Licensing Authority by the Salvation Army are provided victim of trafficking referred by the Gangmaster’s Licensing as follows.

Region Month Male (age) Nationality Female (age) Nationality

East June 2013 26 Lithuanian 34 Lithuanian

North West January 2013 34 Polish 29 Polish 54 Polish

South East May 2012 21 Polish 23 Polish 22 Polish 40 Polish 22 Polish 23 Polish 34 Polish

August 2012 20 Lithuanian 24 Lithuanian 28 Lithuanian 33 Lithuanian 39 Lithuanian 49 Lithuanian 57 Lithuanian

August 2013 39 Lithuanian 55 Lithuanian

Wales June 2012 21 Polish 38 Polish 25 Polish 38 Polish

West Midlands October 2012 39 Polish 24 Slovakian 26 Slovakian

February 2013 21 Polish 23 Polish 26 Polish 34 Polish 29 Polish 47 Polish 41 Polish 44 Polish 46 Polish 46 Polish 46 Polish 55 Polish

April 2013 43 Polish 56 Polish 60 Polish 791W Written Answers11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Written Answers 792W

Staff promote flexible workspace in its central London estate with a 70% desking ratio (seven desks to 10 full time Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice equivalent employees). how many posts in his Department have been relocated Information about the total number of posts relocated from London to each other region in each of the last 10 from London to each region is not recorded centrally years. [168281] and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. However, I can inform the hon. Member that since Mrs Grant: The Ministry of Justice is committed to April 2010, around 500 posts from the Office of the reducing costs and to exacting the greatest possible Public Guardian, an executive agency of the Ministry, value from its resources. As part of the Estate have relocated from London to Birmingham. Transformation Programme, the Ministry continues to

9MC Ministerial Corrections11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

Ministerial Correction Number Location Tranche 1 Tranche 2 Tranche 3

British Underwater 000 Wednesday 11 September 2013 Training and Evaluation Centre Loch Ewe Fuel Depot 000 (FD) Garelochead Defence 000 FD DEFENCE HMS Caledonia — 0 0 Rosyth Defence Estate 0 0 0 West Freugh Training 000 Armed Forces: Redundancy Ranges — = less than 5. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Note: When rounding to the nearest 10, numbers ending in “5” have been Defence how many redundancy letters in each tranche rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias. have been delivered to personnel stationed at (a) RAF Lossiemouth, (b) RAF Leuchars, (c) HMNB Clyde, (d) RM Condor, (e) Headquarters 2nd Division, Neither the post nor the location in which individuals (f) Headquarters 51 Brigade, (g) Redford Barracks, are serving are taken into account by armed forces (h) Dreghorn Barracks, (i) Kinloss Barracks, (j) Fort redundancy selection boards. The selection of an individual George Barracks, (k) Glencorse Barracks, (l) Crombie for redundancy cannot be assumed to imply that the Defence Munitions Centre, (m) Beith Defence Munitions post they occupy on the date of notification is no longer Centre, (n) Glen Douglas Defence Munitions Centre, required. In addition, service personnel move between (o) HMS Gannet, (p) Royal Naval Armament Depot posts and locations regularly, and the location at which Coulport, (q) MOD Hebrides Ranges, (r) British Underwater they will be serving on their exit date may be different Training and Evaluation Centre, (s) Loch Ewe Fuel from that at which they were notified. For these reasons, Depot, (t) Garelochead Defence Fuel Depot, (u) HMS neither the geographical distribution nor the units within Caledonia, (v) Rosyth Defence Estate and (w) West which individuals were serving when notified for redundancy Freugh Training Ranges. [161043] are a valid basis for assumptions about the longer term [Official Report, 1 July 2013, Vol. 565, c. 399-400W.] disposition of future military posts. Letter of correction from Mark Francois: The correct answer should have been: An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) on 1 July 2013. Mr Francois: The information requested about numbers of redundancy letters is set out in the following table: The full answer given was as follows: Number Location Tranche 1 Tranche 2 Tranche 3 Mr Francois: The information requested about numbers of redundancy letters is set out in the following table: RAF Lossiemouth 40 50 0 RAF Leuchars 30 20 — Number HMNB Clyde 30 10 0 Location Tranche 1 Tranche 2 Tranche 3 RM Condor 0 — 0 HQ2Div000 RAF Lossiemouth 40 50 0 HQ 51 Bde — 10 10 RAF Leuchars 30 20 — Redford Barracks —1030 HMNB Clyde 20 — 0 (Bks) RM Condor 20 — 0 Dreghorn Bks — 20 30 HQ2Div 0 0 0 Kinloss Bks 70 20 70 HQ 51 Bde — 10 10 Fort George Bks — 10 30 Redford Barracks —1030 Glencorse Bks — 10 20 (Bks) Crombie Defence 000 Dreghorn Bks — 20 30 Munitions Centre Kinloss Bks 70 20 70 (DMC) Fort George Bks — 10 30 Beith DMC 0 0 0 Glencorse Bks — 10 20 Glen Douglas DMC 0 0 0 Crombie Defence 000HMS Gannet 0 0 0 Munitions Centre RN Armament Depot 000 (DMC) Coulport Beith DMC 0 0 0 MOD Hebrides 000 Glen Douglas DMC 0 0 0 Ranges HMS Gannet 0 0 0 British Underwater 000 RN Armament Depot 000Training and Coulport Evaluation Centre MOD Hebrides 000Loch Ewe Fuel Depot 000 Ranges (FD) 11MC Ministerial Corrections11 SEPTEMBER 2013 Ministerial Corrections 12MC

Neither the post nor the location in which individuals Number are serving are taken into account by armed forces Location Tranche 1 Tranche 2 Tranche 3 redundancy selection boards. The selection of an individual Garelochead Defence 000for redundancy cannot be assumed to imply that the FD post they occupy on the date of notification is no longer HMS Caledonia — 0 0 required. In addition, service personnel move between Rosyth Defence Estate 0 0 0 posts and locations regularly, and the location at which they will be serving on their exit date may be different West Freugh Training 000 Ranges from that at which they were notified. For these reasons, neither the geographical distribution nor the units within — = less than 5. Note: which individuals were serving when notified for redundancy When rounding to the nearest 10, numbers ending in “5” have been are a valid basis for assumptions about the longer term rounded to the nearest multiple of 20 to prevent systematic bias. disposition of future military posts. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 11 September 2013

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 968 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 968 Oil and Gas Industry ...... 967 Rural Economy...... 961 SCOTLAND...... 959 Scotland Analysis Programme ...... 959 Independence (Currency)...... 963 Zero-hours Contracts...... 964 Independence (Pensions)...... 966 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 11 September 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 49WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 50WS Capital for Enterprise Ltd...... 50WS Daniel Morgan ...... 50WS Industrial Strategy Conference...... 49WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 11 September 2013

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 21P TRANSPORT ...... 22P Territorial Army Centre (Caernarfon)...... 21P West Coast Rail Links With London ...... 22P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 11 September 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 705W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 733W Police Cautions...... 705W Buildings...... 733W Redundancy Pay ...... 706W Cycling...... 733W Serious Fraud Office ...... 707W Press: Subscriptions ...... 734W Witnesses: Children...... 707W Satellite Broadcasting...... 734W Security...... 734W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 738W Business: Billing...... 738W DEFENCE...... 708W Business: Government Assistance ...... 739W Armed Forces ...... 708W Business: Regulation ...... 739W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 709W Company Accounts...... 739W Carbon Emissions...... 708W Data Protection...... 740W Children: Maintenance ...... 709W Exports ...... 740W Conditions of Employment...... 710W Graduates: Income...... 741W Military Exercises ...... 710W Industry ...... 741W Public Expenditure...... 710W Literacy...... 741W Reserve Forces: Recruitment...... 711W New Businesses: Government Assistance ...... 742W Trident ...... 711W New Businesses: North Yorkshire ...... 744W EDUCATION...... 746W Conditions of Employment...... 746W CABINET OFFICE...... 731W Email ...... 747W Conditions of Employment...... 731W GCSE: English Language ...... 747W Government Departments: Temporary Government Procurement Card ...... 747W Employment ...... 731W Ministers: Training...... 748W New Businesses ...... 732W Public Appointments ...... 748W Social Conditions: Surveys...... 732W Schools: Finance...... 748W Voluntary Work: Young People...... 733W Schools: Uniforms ...... 749W Social Workers ...... 749W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 745W Empty Property ...... 745W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 734W Health...... 745W Christmas Cards ...... 734W Homelessness...... 745W Electricity Generation...... 734W Staff ...... 746W Energy: Scotland...... 735W Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued JUSTICE...... 753W Fracking...... 735W Civil Proceedings ...... 753W Fracking: North Yorkshire...... 736W Confiscation Orders...... 753W Ministers’ Private Offices ...... 736W Crown Courts ...... 754W Renewable Energy...... 737W Electronic Tagging ...... 785W Sellafield ...... 738W European Court of Human Rights ...... 785W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 786W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Michael Turner ...... 786W AFFAIRS...... 714W Prisons ...... 787W Cats: Animal Welfare ...... 714W Prisons: Drugs ...... 787W Fisheries: Western Sahara ...... 714W Property...... 788W Ragwort ...... 714W Salvation Army...... 789W Staff ...... 791W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 749W British Council...... 749W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 704W Chemical Weapons...... 750W Staff ...... 704W Israel...... 750W Middle East ...... 750W SCOTLAND...... 703W Nobel Prize: Ceremonies...... 750W Average Wages ...... 704W Shaker Aamer ...... 751W Businesses: UK Benefits...... 703W Staff ...... 751W Departmental Cost Savings...... 704W Syria...... 751W Economy...... 703W Western Sahara ...... 752W State Pension...... 703W

HEALTH...... 715W TRANSPORT ...... 704W Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning ...... 715W Staff ...... 704W Hospital Corporation of America...... 716W School Milk ...... 716W TREASURY ...... 712W Warm Homes Healthy People Fund...... 716W Children: Day Care ...... 712W Non-domestic Rates...... 712W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 717W Oil: Prices...... 712W Asylum: Finance...... 717W Revenue and Customs...... 712W Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre .. 717W Staff ...... 713W Crimes of Violence...... 718W Tax Allowances: Veterans...... 713W Detention Centres...... 718W Entry Clearances...... 719W WALES...... 704W Entry Clearances: Syria...... 722W Staff ...... 704W Female Genital Mutilation...... 722W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 723W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 744W Immigration: Stratford...... 724W Billing ...... 744W Members: Correspondence ...... 724W Female Genital Mutilation...... 744W Offenders: Deportation...... 725W Passports: Lost Property...... 726W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 728W Police: Pakistan...... 726W Children: Poverty ...... 728W Rape...... 726W Disability ...... 728W Stop and Search ...... 727W Foreign Investment in UK: Japan ...... 729W Travel ...... 727W Jobcentre Plus ...... 729W Verne Prison...... 728W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Scotland...... 729W Offshore Industry: Safety...... 730W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 707W Personal Income ...... 730W Recall of Parliament ...... 707W Satellite Broadcasting...... 731W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 11 September 2013

Col. No. DEFENCE...... 9MC Armed Forces: Redundancy ...... 9MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 18 September 2013

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Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 567 Wednesday No. 48 11 September 2013

CONTENTS

Wednesday 11 September 2013

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 959]

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 959] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Personal Statement [Col. 979] Statement—(Mr Nigel Evans)

Medical Innovation (No. 2) [Col. 983] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Michael Ellis)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill [Col. 986] Further considerered in Committee

London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [Lords] [Col. 1095] As amended, further considered

Petition [Col. 1130]

Public Health England (Porton Down) [Col. 1131] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme [Col. 273WH] National Parks (Planning Policy) [Col. 297WH] Human Rights (Commonwealth) [Col. 305WH] Satellite Information Services [Col. 330WH] Brierfield and Nelson (Regeneration) [Col. 338WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 49WS]

Petitions [Col. 21P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 703W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 9MC]