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Thursday August 28, 2.00 Pm: Gavyn Davies, Chairman of the BBC LORD

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Thursday August 28, 2.00 Pm: Gavyn Davies, Chairman of the BBC LORD Thursday August 28, 2.00 pm: Gavyn Davies, chairman of the BBC LORD HUTTON: Yes, Mr Dingemans. MR DINGEMANS: Mr Davies, we were talking about Mr Campbell's evidence on 25th June -- A. Yes. Q. -- and your view about whether or not this was an escalation in the dispute between the Government and the BBC. A. Yes. I mean, I felt this was an extraordinary moment. I felt it was an almost unprecedented attack on the BBC to be mounted by the head of communications at 10 Downing Street. Mr Campbell accused the BBC of lying directly. He accused Mr Gilligan of lying directly. He alleged that the BBC had accused the Prime Minister of lying, something which I never believed the BBC had done. And he accused the BBC of having followed an anti-war agenda before, during and after the Iraqi conflict. I must say, I took this as an attack on the impartiality of the BBC and the integrity of the BBC, done with great vigour. Q. Could I take you to BBC/17/2? This is a report in the newspaper, The Times, the next day, 26th June: "Campbell accuses BBC of lying." A. Yes. Q. Did you see this coverage or this type of coverage at the time? A. I certainly saw this type of coverage at the time. I was more focused on actually having watched Alastair Campbell give evidence on television, so I knew exactly what he had said. Q. Were there any avenues, so far as you were concerned, that might have been used to resolve the dispute? A. Well, another troubling aspect of this, to me, was that the Director General had told me that in a previous letter to Mr Campbell, I think on 16th June or thereabouts, the Director of News had suggested to Mr Campbell that if he felt he had a complaint about inaccuracy of a particular broadcast or unfairness, he should approach the BBC Programme Complaints Unit, which I think would have given him due process for resolving his complaint in a non- conflictual and non-public manner. He also had the option, which I do not think he was told in that letter specifically, of complaining to the Broadcasting Standards Commission about unfairness. That is a body that is entirely independent of the BBC and has the power, if it finds on the side of the complainant, to ask the BBC to broadcast a correction. LORD HUTTON: Mr Davies, at this point in time had you actually seen a transcript of what Mr Gilligan had said on the Today Programme at 6.07 am on 29th May? A. (Pause). This is by 25th June, my Lord? LORD HUTTON: Yes. A. It would have been around then. I am not sure that it was prior to that or after that, but it would have been around then. LORD HUTTON: But you had seen the transcript by that time? A. I cannot promise I had seen it before Mr Campbell's evidence. LORD HUTTON: No. Before Mr Campbell's? A. I cannot promise I had seen the transcript before Mr Campbell gave evidence. LORD HUTTON: Yes, to the FAC? A. Yes, to the FAC. LORD HUTTON: Yes. A. I certainly saw it immediately thereafter. My attention on this matter rose dramatically after the FAC evidence by Mr Campbell. LORD HUTTON: Yes. MR DINGEMANS: Mr Campbell wrote two letters on 26th June, one to Mr Sambrook, that we have seen. Can I take you to BBC/5/92? This is a letter from Mr Campbell to Mr Dyke. What is his position? A. Mr Dyke is the Director General of the BBC. He is in charge of the BBC's operations day-to-day and is the editor- in-chief of the BBC. Q. We can see he is sorry he said what he did but was afraid private correspondence and discussion had been pointless: "I am regularly assured by Richard Sambrook that when the BBC makes mistakes, you admit it. I'm afraid that is not the case and I have nine years of experience..." Then he says that the story is 100 per cent wrong, how he is a huge admirer of the BBC, at the bottom: "But I really believe that if this story is not corrected, and an apology not given, it renders pointless any attempt at meaningful discussion about how to resolve the difficulties between us." A. Yes. Q. Did you see this letter? A. Yes, I did. This letter was copied to me, I believe, by Mr Campbell. Q. We also know that Mr Campbell wrote to Mr Sambrook; and that is CAB/1/352, a letter of 26th June. A. Yes. Q. He asked for a response to some specific questions; and the specific questions are picked up in the response. If I may, I will go straight to the response, which was on 27th June at CAB/1/355. Were you a party to this letter of response? A. No, I was not a party to that. I was aware -- Richard Sambrook showed me the letter from Alastair Campbell; and he also showed me a draft of the reply that he was going to send. I was eager, as Chairman, by this stage, to make sure that the management, the Director General and the Director of News, were acting appropriately in replying seriously to the allegations that Mr Campbell -- to the queries that Mr Campbell was raising. So, I think to say I was a party to it is an exaggeration, but I was very aware of it being drafted, yes. Q. Can I take you to CAB/1/360, through the letter, page 7 of the letter? And the questions that Mr Campbell had asked were: "Does the BBC still stand by the allegation it made on 29th May that No. 10 added in the 45 minute claim to the dossier?" It said: "The allegation was not made by the BBC but by our source -- a senior official involved in the compilation of the dossier -- and the BBC stands by the reporting of it." There is a distinction between the BBC and the source. Was that how you saw it at the time? A. I read this letter, Mr Dingemans, I did not write it. I believe that what this letter was doing was giving, on behalf of BBC management, our best and most truthful explanation to Mr Campbell of what we had reported. I am perfectly aware that we -- I was aware at the time that we had written this; and it was absolutely what I believed to be the case. We had, right through this period, a problem persuading Mr Campbell that the BBC was reporting a story in which it was reporting the views of a senior and credible and reliable source, but was not itself making the allegations that that source was putting into the public domain via the BBC. LORD HUTTON: Mr Davies, may I just ask you, if we could go to look at what Mr Gilligan said on 29th May, BBC/1/4. You see the passage there: "... what we've been told by one of the senior officials in charge of drawing up that dossier was that, actually the Government probably erm, knew that that forty five minute figure was wrong, even before it decided to put it in." I appreciate that in the later reports on Today Mr Gilligan did not put it in those terms, and his comments were of a less serious nature; but do you regard that as being a very serious charge that the Government probably knew that the 45 minutes figure was wrong? Apart from whether it was a report of what a source said or whether it was an allegation by the BBC, do you regard that as a very serious charge? A. My Lord, I could not say other than that that is a serious charge, yes. LORD HUTTON: Yes. If you have a serious charge against a person, let us take a totally different situation. Suppose that an allegation that some very prominent public figure is taking bribes to induce him to follow a certain course of action, and you have two types of reporting. There is a report on the BBC that one of their reporters, having investigated matters, considers that the very prominent person is taking bribes but then let us suppose the report was not in those terms but it was a report in these terms: the broadcast said: a reliable source has informed the BBC that that public figure is taking bribes; do you consider that as regards the gravity of the charge there is a distinction between those two charges? A. My Lord, I think that in that particular case -- LORD HUTTON: I appreciate it is an illustration and it is not against the background of other reports. A. My feeling, my Lord, is in a situation like that you would ask the senior public figure whether it was true. LORD HUTTON: Yes. A. And you would hope to get a truthful response or at least an elucidation of the story. Almost certainly you would be able to, through other investigative reporting, add a considerable amount of information before you would broadcast that. I think the particular problem with the area we are talking about here is that in politics you do not always get an absolutely truthful denial of a -- LORD HUTTON: I appreciate that, yes. A. -- report. And sometimes it is very difficult to get direct corroboration, especially in the world that we are talking about here, of a particular story.
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