Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 7 OCTOBER 1943

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

742 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

THURSDAY, 7 OCTOBER, 1943; the amount. Be·cause of the pressure on the coastal line, owing to army traffic par­ ticularly, the shipment of fertiliser by sea Mr. SPEAKER (Hpn. E. J. Hanson, to Northern ports has taken place. It is Buranda) took the chair at 11 a.m. being distributed, by rail, from the ports in the best possible way. It is interesting QUESTIONS. to note that the rail freights are so much lower than the shipping freights. If the CoNviCTioNs FOR BLACK-MARKETING. shipping companies are charging unfair Mr. L. J. BARNES (Cairns) asked the rates, there is a proper authority to whom Attorney-General- an appeal could be made.'' " Will he obtain a full list of all con­ PERMANEJNT AND CASUAL BOARDERS, YORK victions in Queensland for offences com­ HousE. mitted under Price Control and Black­ marketing Regulations, setting out the Mr. L. J. BARNES (Cairns), for Mr. names of offenders, the particular offences J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg), asked the for which they we.re convicted, and the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs- penalties imposed~'' '' Is it a fact that the Licensing Com­ mission has advised Mr. C. J. Watts, of The ATTORNEY~GENERAL (Hon. D. A. York House, Melbourne street, South Bris­ Gledson, Ipswich) replied- bane, that he should eject his present per­ '' Thooe offences were against laws of manent boarders in order to make accom­ the Commonwealth. The Federal Authori­ modation available for casual travellers, ties may be able to supply the hon. member including allied soldiers~'' with the desired information.'' The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AJ<'F AIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, BATTLE STATIONS APPEJ.L. Ithaca) replied- Mr. lUOORHOUSE (Windsor) asked the '' This question should be addressed to Premier- the Attorney-General.'' '' Will he, as Minister in charge of the Act governing patriotic funds, assure this INTEREST-FREE LOANS, PRIMARY INDUSTRIES. House that 'The Battle Stations Appeal' Mr. PLUNKETT (Albert) asked the is not being use.d by its officers to further Treasurer- their own political interests~'' '' 1. Is it a fact that, in the past two Tbe PREMIER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, years, interest-free loans have been made Bremer) replied- available to certain primary industries~ '' 'The Battle Stations Appeal' has been '' 2. If so, to what industries, stating organised bv the Queensland Patriotic and total amount in each case, and for what Australian LJomforts Fund, and I have no purposes~ reason to doubt that the many persons who "3. In what cases are interest-free loans are actively associated with the appeal are now available W" actuated by any motive other than the advancement of the worthy objects of the Tlle TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, fund. The hon. member may be sure that, Bremer) replied- if any evidence is produced that this very '' 1. Yes. worthy ·object is being used for other than '' 2. Cotton-growing industry. Amounts its proclaimed purposes, such misuse will advanced by the Bureau of Rural Develop­ be sternly rebuked.'' ment: 1941-1942, £19,515 5s.; 1942-1943, £5,171 12s. 1d. These advances have been SHIPPING FREIGHTS ON FERTILISER. made for the purchase of irrigation plants Mr. L. J. BARNES (Cairns) asked the and electric motors, also for the construe: Minister for Transport- tion of irrigation wells for the purpose. of '' As fertiliser sent to North Queensland stimulating cotton production by irrigatiOn. is costing farmers approximately £3 per ton '' 3. Advances for the above purposes are more because of extra freight charges by still being made available, and, in addi­ steamer, will he arrange for fertiliser to be tion, interest-free advances are made carried by the railways~'' through the Buredu of Rural Development under the Farmers' Assistance (Debts Tile ~IINISTER FOR TRANSPORT Adjustment) Acts, from funds provided by (Hon. J. Larcombe, Rockhampton) replied- the Commonwealth Government, but such '' On 30 September the Minister for advances are open to all farmers and Agriculture and Stock, Hon. T. L. Wil­ graziers, and are not restricted to any par­ liams, M.L.A., sent a communication to the ticular industry." Premier, Hon. F. A. Cooper, M.L.A., urging the Government to provide for the trans­ SUPPLIES OF ARSENIC. port, by railJ of greater quantities of fertiliser. This request was supported by Mr. O'SHEA (Warrego), without notice, other MM.L.A. representing country elec­ asked the Secretary for Agriculture and torates. Fertiliser is already being sent to Stock- the North, by rail, in limited quantities, '' Has the Minister any further informa· and an endeavour is being made to increase tion with regard to arsenic supplies~'' Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 743

Tile SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE on the land. Unfortunately, of course, the ANn STOCK (Hon. T. L. Williams, Port war has interrupted the plans the Govern­ Curtis) replied- ment had in mind. A committee had been '' Following repeated efforts to secure set up by the Public Service Commissioner arsenic supplies of which there has been to report on the duties and general work of a shortage owing to the non-delivery of district offices, but it had only gone a very containers, I am now advised that consider­ short part of the way when the Pacific war able supplies of these containers are ready came upon us and the work had to be stopped for delivery and the balance will be avail­ for the time being. At the moment, in con­ able within a few days, when I am assured junction with the Public Service Commis­ packing of the arsenic supplies will com­ sioner, I am giving that matter attention, mence and shipments from Melbourne be and we hope to be able to get that committee made by the first available steamer.'' at work again as soon as possible. The pro­ posal will be appreciated by hon. members on both sides of the Committee because the PAPERS. staffing of district offices is a very important 'l'he following papers were laid on the phase of the department's work. The young table, and ordered to be printed- men who undertake that work should be brought up not only to report on land Report of the Secretary for Public Instruc­ development and forestry activities, they tion for the year 1942. should be able to give a lead to selectors Report of the State Electricity Commission and farmers in land matters generally, for of Queensland for the yea.r 1942-1943. example, as to the necessity for preserving timber on the various parts of a property. In that way they would work as liaison SUPPLY. officers, as it were, between the department RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE--ESTIMATES­ and Crown tenants. FOURTH AND FIFTH ALLOTTED· DAYS. Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.11 (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Brassing­ a.m.. ): I observe that this vote has been ton, Fortitude Valley, in the chair.) reduced by approximately £6,000, and I can quite understand the reason. I pay a com­ ESTIMATES IN CHIEF, 1943-1944. pliment to most of the officers in the Depart­ DE!P ARTMENT OF PUBLIC LANDS. ment of Public Lands throughout the State, particularly those at Toowoomba, Dalby, and DISTRICT OFFICES. in the West as far as Cunnamulla. They The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS are deserving of ·100-per-cent. praise. I par­ (Hon. E. J. Walsh, Mirani) (11.8 a.m.): 1 ticularised these places because I know the move-- officers there so well by doing business with them. ''That £38,565 be granted for 'District Offices. ' ' ' I have no objection to the vote, and I am satisfied as to the reason why it has been There is a decrease of £6,388 in this vote, reduced; there is not the same activity now due to reduction in staff and salaries and a as there was previously and as we look reduction of £3,500 in the provision for con­ forward to after the war. tingencies. District offices do a great deal vf work, and include that of land commis­ Vote (District Offices) agreed to. eioners and rangers. They have had to under­ take \\'Ork for the Commonwealth in connec­ FORESTRY. tion with the war and many of the officers are doing this work in addition to their The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS ordinary duties. (Hon. E. J. Walsh, Mirani) (11.12 a.m.): I District officers have a very important duty move- to perform because the department to a large '' That £56,569 be granted for extent acts on the reports submitted by them. 'Forestry.' '' Serious consideration will have to be gi1·en This, of course, deals mainly with the adminis­ to the staffing of district offices, and the tTative section of forestry activities and in Government have had in mind a sptem of no way reflects the work that will be under­ cadets in distTict offices by which we could train young men and give them a practical taken in the general reforestation plan. Under various other headings, such as the Co­ outlook, and as time went absorb them into ordinator-GeneTal 's Department, sums have the administrative branches at head office. been allocated from consolidated revenue with It is a good thing to train the men wlw will be called on to administer a department like the fact in mind that forestTy will, of course, be expected to play a big part in post-war the Department of Public Lands. They reconstruction. The Government have set should undergo some training at least in aside a sum of about £50,000 this year for the field activities of the department. the purpose of resuming suitable areas for Opposition ~!embers: Hear! hear! forestry work. This is merely the approach to the plan, as it were, and as time goes on The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: it will be necessary to make more comprehen­ Thus trained, they would bring to the sive classifications of lands generally so as to administrative sections a practical outlook set aside areas that are specially suited for on the problems that confront the inhut:·ie'! forestry development. I think it will be 744 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

appreciated that forestry activities will pro­ able areas can be reserved exclusively for VIde not only a good asset in timber supplies forestry purposes. Yesterday I mentioned an for the future but will also make for the extensive plan we had under consideration in absorption of thousands of unskilled workers the irrigation field, and while it is difficult to under the post-war plan. give any concrete estimate of forestry work, I think we could probably encourage more I visualise a plan that we have already of the farming community to develop little developed to a point and submitted to the forestry plots themselves. I believe that hon. Commonwealth authorities for post-war recon­ members opposite and others have spoken on struction. that point from time to time. It is done in It will involve an expenditure of something other countries. For example, in Sweden they like £15,000,000 spread over a period of years. take forestry activities very seriously. Some­ I have already pointed out that the depart­ thing like 26 per cent. of the working popula­ ment and the Government have made forestry tion are engaged in them. a cardinal feature of post-·war reconstruction, lir. JUacdonald: It is their lifeblood. and that it is proposed to carry out forestry activities on a much greater scale than ever The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: before. I have made proposals to the It is tl1e lifeblood of Sweden. In Queensland Cabinet whereby it will be possible to under­ we have vast areas that lend themselves to take some work leading to resumptions so forestry. Hon. members, of course will that an approach to the project may be made nppreciate that within the limits of the finance immediately. available to the State Government we can work on only a very small scale and that li'Ir. Dart: Have you any hardwood plots? although we can claim to have made consider~ The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: able progress in the last 20 years in this There are a few on a very small scale, but direction, there is still a wide field to be they have not been developed. Some people covered. It can be tackled in different ways. seem to think that we are threatened with For instance, I think some of the best work a shortage of softwoods, but I want to empha­ that was done with unemployment relief sise my view that we shall be short of hard­ moneys was the regeneration policy carried woods long before we are short of soft­ out through the juvenile employment scheme. woods. In the hon. member for Cooroora 's electorate and other places some very fine work was done Mr. Macdonald: Hear! hear! by the youths employed under that plan. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Probably we may be able to extend the policy One can travel thousands of miles through of that kind to the northern areas. Of the hardwood belts on the coast, and find course, each district has its' distinct problems very little ;hardwood timber of commercial and will have to be treated accordingly. Just value at all. Only particular areas can be as we cannot be expected to lay down any exploited or developed for hardwood pur· hard and fast rule throughout the State for poses. land settlement so in forestry we have to take each district by itself and develop its forestry Mr. li'Iaber: If you were to construct a plan accordingly. For example, I visualise railway line to Taroom you would gain access great activity in the far North in forestry to one of the finest hardwood timber stands work, much more so, I should say, than in the in Queensland. general settlement plan. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Many people have said a good deal about It is a good thing to know that we have closer settlement in the North, but if "\'\CC give such stands. While some people may com­ it serious consideration we see that, owing to ment adversely on the quantity of timber the many difficulties tha't arise there through imported into Australia even under the eon­ tropical and seasonal conditions, very few ditions of to-day, I have no great objection industries could be developed on a sound to that policy, because it is helping to pre­ economic basis along the coastal belt. Much serve Queensland's limited supplies. I think of that land has been cut up already for we are inclined to talk rather loosely about closer settlement, but after a number of years the large quantity of various species of tim­ of stocking and other activities erosion takes ber we have. It is known that there are many place and such damage is done that the asset areas that have not been adequately estimated, is lost for ever, as it were. Rather than and of course there is some difficulty in subdivide huge areas of scrub land there for estimating them. Apart from the subject of closer settlement immediately, I visualise a reserves of either softwoods or hardwoods, policy of regeneration of trees so as to allow there is the important fact that we must look the species indigenous to those areas to make a long way ahead. We may say that in better growth. As to the waste timbers­ Queensland we can develop some of our pine and in a regeneration policy some trees are species much more rapidly than they can be inevitably cut out-it may be that instead of developed in European countries, but at the burning or destroying them we can utilise same time we have to remember that there them in some way for pulping purposes, for will be an increased demand for timber in making wall board, such as masonite, and so the future because a vigorous housing policy on. All these things can be linked up with is likely, and because of developments in the forestry plan proper. There is a great industry. Therefore, we must see that we future for that phase of forestry in the North. have such plantations as will give us a sub­ In the South, of course, we shall have to pay stantial reserve for the future. more attention to hardwoods, and many suit- Mr. Ma~donald: Rotation? Supply. [7 OcTOBER.] Supply. 745

The SECRETARY l<'OR PUBLIC LANDS: They would have a· protective value in pre­ Exactly. Our duty is so to administer the venting soil erosion. affairs of the State as to provide for the Forestry needs not only working plans in needs of the community in the years to come. the field, but scientific and technical research. \lYe should lay down a well-defined forestry Unfortunately, although in years gone by we plan now. I have already pointed out that have taken into the department a number of the Govemment have adopted forestry as one cadets, the can of the services has been of the cardinal features of their post-war such that we have not been able to keep that reconstruction plans, especially, as I have plan going. Hon. members can see the explained before, because money expended on futility of sending a: lad 18 years of age to the forestry development gives more employment University for a forestry course, only to find than money expended on any other undert:;tk­ that after he has been there one or two years ing we have in the ~tate. From that po~nt he is called up in one of the fi,ghting services. of view, it is very desuable that such a pohcy In the last few years, therefore, that policy should be carried out. Forestry plots have a has not been proceeded with, but this year we scenic value, too, as anyone knows who goes have decided to take six youths into the to the electorate represented by the Leader depa'rtment. They will study forestry sub­ of the Opposition. We have some beautiful jects at the University with a view to pro­ plots in the Beerwah a1·ea a.nd the surround­ viding suitable staff for administrative work ings districts, and of course m the area repre­ in the future. Forestry is a very important sented by the hon. member for Nanango­ section of the department. This vote in the hon. members opposite seem to have been very main covers the administrative branches and well treated so far as a forestry policy goes. certain small sections of development work. We know that there is comparatively poor land in the Beerwah district that at one time The CHAIRMAN: Before putting the was made available for soldier settlements, question, may I say that there is far too but as the Leader of the !Opposition has much noise in the Chamber. I ask hon. poi~ted out, a considerable area of it is members not to converse so loudly, as it is reasonably suitable for settlement. Never­ difficult for '' Hansard'' to report the speeches theless, the Sub-Department of Forestry has from hon. members with so much noise in the demonstrated that poor as the lm1d may be, Chamber. it is suitable for the species of pine that is growing there. I have said in this Chamber Honourable l\'Iembers: Hear, hear! before that from data compiled over a num­ Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba) (11.27 a.m.): ber ol years we are able to prove that in 12 I regard this vote as a particularly important vears the trees have grown to a girth of 26 one, for two reasons. One is that there is inches. no greater need at the present time than an It would take a similar species in a Euro­ increase in our reforestation activities and the pean country 60 or 70 years to attain t.h" other is that there is no better avenue for same girth. It will be seen that under employment of a useful and permanent nature Queensland conr1itions some timbers grow than in reforestation. It is pleasing to hear the much more rapidly than elsewhere. Minister say that in post-war planning his The technical side of forestry calls for department envisages· that great attention will considerable attention. It is not a matter of be paid to reforestation. For years now we have cut into our forest wealth without going out and selecti.ng a piece o~ land a·n,~ saving ''Plant Kaun or Bunya pme there, endeavouring to replace the timber cut down as· soil' conditions and climatic factors have to to the extent we should. vVe have increased be considered as well as the suitability of the our reforestation work over the last 10 or species for the area. 12 years, it is true, but judging by the way our forests have been cut, particularly in JUr. Macdonald: You overlook one v~ry these times of war emergency, there is need important fact there, that the la'nd produc~ng for a more extensive reforestation programme that timber will probably produce nothmg after the war immediately la'bour becomes else. available. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: We must look at the subject from two Quite so. I said on a previous occasion that angles, the first, the angle of finance, and the much of the Beerburrum land was too poor second, that of method and approach. In for settlement purposes, but eminently suited regard to the first, the policy the State has for reforestation. We have also a good deal been following in recent years has been a of lands away from the coast that are suit­ wrong one. We have relied for reforestation able for the purpose, and we must see to it on loan money and have made no allocations that such areas are adequately exploited for for the work from the timber revenues this forestry purposes. It is well, too, to. pay State has been receiving. We have been attention to our western areas and see 1f we cutting down our wealth and selling it for cannot encourage the growth of species the benefit of State revenues, but State peculiar to those areas. Few la'nd-men revenues have not made commensurate con­ interest themselves in that phase of forestry. tributions for the repla'cement of that wealth. Again the war has upset our plans. The Tile Secret&ry for Public Lands: That is department had something in view there. We not correct. had drafted a scheme whereby the owners of substantial properties in the West could Mr. NICKLIN: It is definitely correct. I interest themselves in the growing of par­ will not go into details, but I will quote ticular trees even if only for shade purposes. general figures. We find that in the last 746 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

10-year period the total expenditure on where it is best to establish a plantation and forestry work in this State frO'lll loan funds where to carry out regeneration work. has amounted to £1,333,000, yet within the I was very interested to hear the Minister last 10 years we have received over £3,000,000 say he is making available £50,000 for the revenue from the sale of our forest timbers. resumption of land for the establishment of The reforestation work done from revenue plantations and other forestry activities. has been virtually nil. We have expended That is a particularly wise move. Undoubtedly our forestry revenue in the maintenance of large areas of our poorer coast Jands are at the administrative and technical section of the present time alienated, but not being used the department. for any productive purpose-in fact, it is It would be good business if a proportion doubtful whether they are of any great vdue of revenues received from the sale of timber from the point of view of farming produc­ was set aside for reforestation. If we are tion-that are eminently suitable for the to depend on the allocation of loan money to establishment of quick-growing exotic pine carry out the reforestation programme it forests, of which we have excellent examples would not be continuous or progressive from in the Glass House and Beerwah areas. By year to year; we shall have a spurt when the resumption of these areas, which are close ample loan money is available and a falling to rail and market-and I do not think the back when loan money becomes scarce. In Minister will have much difficulty in regard to order to be effective a reforestation pro­ resumptions; I think a few of the owners gramme must not be carried out by fits and would be only too happy to get rid of some starts; it has to be a continuous one over a of the land they hold-we shall be able to period of years, and it is the duty of the put into production land that is not now Government of the day to ensure that being used to advantage. sufficient money is made available to have the A survey to ascertain whether land is best programme carried out in that way. suited for forestry or other settlement is Turning from the financial side of reforesta­ urgently necessary and, as I mentioned on tion let me look at the methods of reforesta­ the Chief Office vote, Beerburrum is an tion: These come under two P.eadings, the example of an area in which such a reclassi­ establishment of new plantations and fication of land can take place with advan­ regeneration work, which are equally import­ tage both to the department and to the ant. The development of new plantations settlers. calls in some instances for a considerable The Minister mentioned that the department amount of money. It is not a very expensive had obtained some result from the establish­ matter in the taeda and caribaea plantations ment of hardwood plots in the Beerburrum along our coasts, but when it comes to the area. After the failure of the tobacco-growing establishment of the better-class pines such settlement there, these areas were taken as hoop and bunya and some of the cabinet over and planted with blackbutt and timbers, it is costly.. Still, we need those iron-bark seedlings. A number of those various classes of trmber, and we have to seedlings have grown and part of the bear the expense. area has been naturally regenerated, but I think the best way to build up our hard­ I question whether those areas could wood reserves is by means of regeneration. not have been better used for softwoods than It is not necessary to go to the expense of for hardwoods. That area has never grown establishing hardwood plantations; they can a good type of hardwood under natural con­ be established quite effectively and cheaply by ditions, and, therefore, it is doubtful whether setting aside hardwood stands and carrying even under plantation conditions it will grow out a programme of regeneration within them. s.. first-class ha•rdwood. Personally, I am very doubtful on the point, and men experienced Mr. Tlleodore: They are much slower in the industry also express grave doubt. than softwoods. Admittedly, a better type of hardwood is pro­ Mr. NICKLIN: That is not so with some duced under controlled forestry conditions of our fast-growing hardwoods. For example, than under natural conditions, but knowing blackbutt is one of the quickest-growing that that area is first-class 00untry for soft­ hardwoods we could plant on the poorer lands, woods of the exotic pine type, I doubt whether and flooded gum, which needs better land, is it would not have been better to concent·rate also a very fast-growing timber. on the exotic pine, seeing that our most urgent need is softwoods. I realise that the plant­ ltlr. Theodore: It is not a first-class ing of hardwoods there was more or less an timber. experiment, but I am of opinion that .there Mr. ltiacdonald: For weather-boards it is. would have been greater advantage and quicker results would have been achieved had Mr. NICKLIN : It may be that young these areas been planted with exotic species flooded gum is not :first-class, but when it is of pine. 20 or 30 years old it makes an excellent From the annual report I notice that, unfor­ timber for weather-boards, as the hon. mem­ tunately, this year the department is not able ber for Stanley says. In its young state it is to go on with the planting programme. Of a particularly valuable case timber, coming course, we realise the difficulties it has to next to pine. contend with. It is also to be observed that I think the first thing to be done-,-and owing to the shortage of staff it is hard put judging by what the Minister says and by to it to do the necessary maintenance, prun­ what I know of the department it will be ing, and protection work. We realise the diffi­ done-is to have a survey of the State to see culties, but the need for planting is that Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 747 urgent that the Minister oould with advantage products. When we realise that the demand apply to the Commonwealth Government for for munition cases is taking a great deal of the use of some of the prisoners of war now the timber that previously went into fruit held in Australia for reforestation work. This cases-offcuts and small sizes-we can appre­ is work that can be carried out by prisoners ciate the difficulty the fruitgrowers of of war. In fact, it is eminently suitable for Queensland are experiencing. Of those them, inasmuch as the men could work in 6,000,000 cases approximately only 1,500,000 gangs and be kept under supervision. I know are provided by the use of second-hand cases, that in the planting programme carried out the remaining 4,500,000 coming from forest last year the department used the labour of products of the State. The Stanthorpe area friendly aliens. Unfortunately, however, some had a good spring and looks like having a of these men were not friendly towards the record crop. There they will require approxi­ control exercised over them and there was mately 2,000,000 half-bushel cases this season, trouble. Some of these men should have been which extends from November to April. If severely dealt with for their conduct. I do it had not been for the extremely severe not think there would be the same trouble with winter that the metropolitan and nearly all prisoner-of-war labour. Reforestation is so coastal areas of this State suffered, they urgent and the extension of our plantations so would have required approximately 1,000,000 necessary that it is to be regretted that we half-bushel cases to handle their product. As are not able to proceed with that work because a result of frost losses, however, the case 0f the shortage of labour when there are in problem was solved for those growers, and Australia prisoners of war whose labour they were able to m'ake do with the supplies could be used for these purposes. that were available. The hon. gentleman also mentioned the I should like to emphasise to the Minister advisability of encouraging timber production the fact that the priorities that the mills on farm plots. I have been advocating that have for cutting fruit cases are not being poli0y for several years and consequently I exercised to the full ea·ch month. At this heartily endorse the idea. period, when the industry should be receiving When we look at what has been done in the full extent of those priorities to enable the older parts of the world by having a it to build up stocks for the season, they are plot on each farm, from which timber can not getting them' and the shortage of cases be cut when it is needed, we realise the value is mounting. That is going to have a very of such a policy. At the moment, England serious effect which will be most seriously is reaping the benefit of having pursued felt in the Stanthorpe area. that policy over a number of years. During The Secretary for Public Lands: But the last war large quantities of tim'ber came that side of it is being handled by the Com­ from the small blocks that grew on most monwealth authorities. farms. The same practice was followed on the Continent. Although the French and ~Ir. NICKLIN: Unfortunately, they have Belgian farms were small, their owners still to depend on the Minister's department for devoted an acre or two to the growing of supplies. I pay a tribute to the way in which trees which provided them with shelter and the Minister has handled this question and timber whenever they required it. Here, special tribute to Mr. Crane, the Timber where we have larger areas, most farms Controller, who is vitally concerned with it. include a piece of rough, broken land that The Secretary for Public Lands: It has is unsuitable for cultivation but might be been a very difficult problem. ideal for growing timber, and it is on these plots that we should encourage the owners Mr. NICKLIN: It has been an extremely to carry out that policy. difficult problem. I repeat that if the The Secretary for Public Lands: About priorities the mills are supposed to supply 50 per cent. of the forest areas in Sweden are n:ot supplied at the present time, trouble are owned by the farmers. will occur when the big rush comes just after Christmas in the .Stanthorpe area. Mr. NICKLIN: I do not doubt that. I Now is the period of the year when the should say that the same position would industry should be building up its stocks to exist in many parts of France, judging by meet the big rush from Stanthorpe, but un:for­ what I saw of them during the last war. uately they are not being built up. It is a It is interesting to note that a number of matter that could be looked into in the farmers, particularly those in close proximity interests of the general good of the industry. to forestry areas, are planting small plots of I should like to make a suggestion concern­ pine and many of them are taking just as ing the supply of cases to that part of the much pride in their little forest plots as they State from Rockhampton north. Southern do in the other parts of their farms. Queensland has been called upon to supply Undoubtedly, that is going to return good the cases for those districts at va·rious times, dividends to them in the future. but in North Queensland we have more timber Another of the department's problems is ~uitable for cases than we have in the South case-timber supplies. The Minister knows and, what is more, the mills in the North the quantity of timber that goes into cases are now fitting themselves out for the cutting each year in this State, but I am sure many of case timber. It would be much better busi­ hon. members do not realise that in Queens­ ness to supply all cases required from Rock­ land we require approximately 6,000,000 fruit hampton north from the northern districts and vegetable cases each year to handle our rather than that they should go from the South 748 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

where there is a shortage at the moment. My had an opportunity to give effect to a suggestion would help to relieve the transport vigorous policy of forest regeneration. problem, too. The trMks going North are generally loaded to maximum capacity and, Our forests have been slaughtered anll perhaps, return empty to the South. As there much timber taken out of them that should is suitable timber in the North to be cut not have been cut. That will be rectified by into cases and as the North is now equipping the Minister and his officers, who are concerned its mills for that work, it would be good busi­ at that aspect of the problem. They will ness to insist that the northern mills cut endeavour as soon as practicable to organise enough cases to supply the area from Rock­ an orderly method of harvesting so that our hampton north and thus give much-needed cut of timbers will not endanger the perma­ relief to the mills in the South and so husband nency of our stands. There are some areas in the timber available here. North Queensland where good hardwooi!s are available that are not available in other parts The Secretary for Public Lands: It looks of t,he State, and every care should be taken as if it would be a good idea to have a to see that the timber cut is used to the zoning plan. best advantage. I believe-and in this I agree with the Leader of the Opposition­ Mr. NICKLIN: It would be a good idea. that we should lose no time in formulating plans for reforestation plots. I believe the lUr. Theodore: They have been ordered Minister agrees entirely with that view, but to cut munition boxes. we know the difficulties. We must make extra­ Mr. NICKLIN: Yes, and they have been ordinary efforts to make an early start with ordered to cut fruit cases, too. The mills in that phase of forestry operations. Perhaps the North have an opportunity to increase certain labour can be made available to that their cut. They did not cut cases before, but end. I know how difficult it is to get labour now they have the saws to cut the cases and for our ordinary business. I find myself in it would be much better for them to supply the position of having a manager on my farm the requirements of the industry from Rock­ trying to control 138 acres of cane land hampton north rather than take the 0ases from requiring cultivation without any help, the South, where there is a shortage, and at whereas, prior to the call-ups, we usually had the same time jam the transport facilities six men to help him. from here to North Queensland. Mr. Dart: You will be able to spend your In conclusion, may I pay a tribute to the holidays there. oftlcers in the sub-department~ We have a par­ ticularly good staff of men interested in their Mr. THEODORE: I have two boys in the jobs, and men who, because of their studies army, and they usually spend their leave of the problems of the sub-department, are helping him. I am not the only one in that able to give us results equal to, if not better predicament, and I merely mention the fact than, those achieved in any other part of the to demonstrate the difficulty of getting labour. world. They deserve every c1·edit for their In fact, some farmers are in a worse con­ endeavours on behalf of the reforestation of dition. There are instances in which women the State, and I feel that given the money who are managing farms are unable to do and the opportunity they will fulfil the urgent the necessary work and are not able to get needs for extra timber in Queensland. It is a labour, and we all know what the result will big problem to-day. be. This being the condition of things on the farms, it must be very difficult to obtain ~Ir. THEODORE (Herbert) (11.52 a.m.) : labour for reforestation, essential though it The Minister has already pointed out that he is. is particularly concerned about the future I was interested and pleased to ;hear the timber requirements of this State. We all Minister refer to his scheme for the train­ admit that timber is of great importance to ing of young men in the technical side of the nation. From articles I have read recently reforestation and other matters relating to I am of the opinion that there will be a world forestry. We must look to the future. We shortage of hardwoods. I have always held must take a long view. Although we may the view that softwoods can be reproduced spend money to-day, and continue to do so much more quickly than hardwoods, although in succeeding years, we should not hope to some hardwoods grow quicker than others. I reap an immediate benefit, hut rather spend am satisfied that the timber industry can it from the point of view that we have a become firmly established in Queensland and duty to posterity to husband our forestry indeed that this State offers the greatest resources to make them of value to the nation prospects for future timber supplies. Especi­ later. Experimental plots should be estab­ ally is this so in oonnection with softwoods lished as soon as possible to produce timbers in North Queensland. The Minister has necessary for the future and also for the pro­ explained, too, that the conditions that prevail duction of paper pulp. When the milling in North Queensland make it eminently suit­ industry is established on a greater scale they able as a site for the esta.blishment of per­ will supply waste, previously destroyed, for manent forestry operations. However, I pulping. It is not difficult to imagine that we should not like to see some of the very hest shall be able to produce large quantities of or riehest lands devoted to forestry if they suitable timber in North Queensland for pulp­ can be more profitably used so as to give a ing. That will be invaluable for future greater measure of employment in other ways. development. The wonderful progress made Because of war conditions we have not yet in this respect in Tasmania is an ohj ect Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 749 lesson to us, as it enables us to contemplate proved to me that many of the stories told in what can be done in this State. the past were not quite correct. The timber ~here are possibilities for the production in grew in that area as well as if not better vanous parts of North Queensland of other than in others. products than sugar, although it may not be The Secretary for Public Lands: There ~m a: .ver:J: extensive scale. If, after sound are some very fine plots in your area. mvestlgatwn, such a product is shown to be payable, I believe that in conjunction with Mr. EDW ARDS: They are very good reforestation it will be the means of alleviat­ indeed, but there are two or three aspects of in?" the very unsatisfactory position that has the matter that one must consider in a dis­ existed for many years in the slack season trict such as that. In the first instance it in the sugar industry. I believe it will be includes some of the finest potato·grow'ing very many years before we shall see an indus­ land in Queensland. At one time it was try established along the coast that will rank thought that the men who undertook potato­ anywhe::e near the sugar industry in regard production would not make a success of it to efficiency and production, but I believe there; they would, perhaps, have one season there will be other developments as a result only with a very high production, but, fortu­ of the organisation of the Department of nately, that was not so. This industry has Labour and Employment. Under the Co-or­ been carried on there now for years, and still dination of Employment Facilities Act indus­ the crops are equal in both quantity and try will be thoroughly examined with the quality to those in any other district. The object of drawing up schemes to be under­ district is in close proximity to the larger taken as soon as the war ends. It will be centres of population, such as Ipswich and satisfactory to know that when the war ends Brisbane, and therefore the farmers should we shall have suitable schemes to absorb the receive consideration in every possible way. men from the fighting forces. That is a Another matter that I wish to bring to the matter of the greatest importance. vVe do notice of the Minister is the difficulty the not want to see members of the fighting settlers there are up against in the control of forces sent out o?- the roads with pick and marsupial pests, which are bred in the forests. shovel to do memal tasks· if possible these I trust that help will be given to them in men should enjo;y the right to take up land or fencing off their areas from the adjacent work where their surroundings will be more forest. congenial. M_:r. Theodore: They do provide wire. ~h~ Minister mentioned the matter of t~amm~ young men to investigate the tech­ Mr. EDW ARDS: It is difficult to get mcal Side of reforestation. That is a wise anything of that kind now, but this assistance move, because we must have men to take would be of material benefit to them. One the place of those now in the department. can imagine the plight of those farmers, most Very . few. men of ~o-day have the training of whom have very small areas, who are close that It Wil! be possible to give these young to forests in which the marsupials breed. A men who Will carry on the work in the future crop can be completely destroyed even in a ! mu~t pay a tribute to the officers engaged couple of nights, and there is no way of pre­ In this department. They are keen to do venting it, except than by fencing. I ask the the right thing, and do it as soon as possible· Minister to go into the matter and do all he but I know. they have been hampered by all can in the direction I have mentioned to help sorts of thmgs that have intervened as a them produce the things that are necessary result of war conditions. I believe the Minis­ to-day and will still be valuable in years to ter ~as in mind the advancement to the fullest come. After all, there are not so many of possible extent of this great undertaking our scrubs that might be called dense pine of forestry to which Queensland must look scrubs, but the land thereabouts comprises for wonderful results. some of the best, and it should be cultivated in the interests of the people of Queensland Mr •. EDWAR~S (Nanango) (12.5 p.m.): I and also to assist in the feeding of the nations was mterested m the Minister's statement after the war. as. to what. the .department proposes to do. The Leader of the Opposition spoke of the H;s enthusiasm IS refreshing, but I hope it need for encouraging settlers to go in for Will ~ot carry hil"?- away to the extent of reforestation. Much encouragement has, in res~mmg what might be termed first-class fact, been given by the officers of this sub­ a.gncultura1 land for the purpose of creating department. Settlers who wish to do so can timber belts. obtain seedlings from the nurseries, and TJ1e Secretary for Public Lands • There advantage is taken of the right to do so. In would be no sense in that. • the Proston district I know of farmers who have put in seedlings at the bottom of their Mr. EDWARDS: I do not think there farms. In fact, it can oe said that on farms would. One must admit that the Sub-Depart­ between Murgon and Proston wonderful head­ ~ent of Forestry has done a wonderful job way has been made. Moreover, there are m many respect over the years. I have not n·,iles of roadways, along the sides of which agreed altogether with certain things it has trees could be planted. These roads are not done in my own district, but, nevertheless, I used very much by stock, and if timber was am pleased by the effort that ha's been made planted on them, it would be of wonderful and the area that has been planted. That value to the State in the years to come. shm;ld be very encouraging to the Minister, The Minister might also have mentioned the as 1t was to me. As a matter of fact, it activities of project clubs connected with 750 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply .

.schools, in which also his officers have helped. introduction of new types of timbers of com­ Some schools have very good plots, in which mercial value, for I predict that in the near they have planted various species of trees, future Queensland tiinbers will play a and on project days the children hear lectures prominent part in the manufacture of furni­ on them, and at times offic€rs of this sub­ ture and the construction of homes in various -department give the children lessons on tim­ parts of the world, provided always that this bers, their growth, and so on. That will be policy of shocking destruction is checked and valuable in time to come, not only because of serious attention is given to the preservation the timber that is grown, but also because it of our forests . .stimulates the interest of the children in Another matter that requires special atten­ forestry. tion is also one in which we can learn from I believe that by such means as that other countries. My suggestion is that men perhaps the whole system of reforestation should be specially appointed to see that fires within this and the other States of the Com­ do not break out in our forests. In other monwealth, as well as other parts of the parts of the world men are on constant duty, world, may be altered. After all, boys going day and night, to see that fires do not occur, to school think along various lines and if or that when they do break out action is some of them take to this work it will be a taken to extinguish them promptly. great thing in the years to come. Encourage­ I hope the Minister will give careful con­ ment should be given to these projects at all sideration to my three suggestions, the first times and the schools could be visited from time to appoint specialists to advise him on the to time by an officer of the department. This planting of trees and their care and atten­ would help in no small way to increase not tion, the second the appointment of experts only the interest of the children but also to advise him on the best exotic plants to future timber supplies of the State. To my be grown in Queensland, and the third the mind there is no greater scope for the imme­ appointment of a competent fire staff to build diate employment of men in the post-war fire-breaks and generally to prevent the period than in this important work which is destruction of forests by fire. of value almost from the moment the tree is planted in that although we work and sleep Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (12.19 the tree grows all the time. If it is success­ p.m.): This is a very important vote. At ful to even a small degree the cost incurred the outset I want to say that I thoroughly will be returned gradually to the State. From endorse the remarks of the Leader of the that point of view I think forestry is deserv­ Opposition and the hon. member for Nanango. ing of every consideration and I hope that In dealing with forestry we must look ahead, the work will continue. 50 years ahead, nay, further than that, to the time when this country will carry a popula­ 1\Ir. LUCKINS (Maree) (12.15 p.m.): Although I may be perhaps a little critical tion of 20,000,000 and more. We owe a duty of the state of the forests in Queensland to the rising generation especially, to see to-day I am not going to blame the Minister. that their building requirements are supplied Over a number of years there has been a not .nnly in the city of Brisbane where there shocking destruction of our wonderful forests, will be ample supplies of bricks and mortar, the beautiful gifts that have been given us in but also in the country districts, which must the shape of trees and valuable timbers, and it of necessity be considerabiy developed by the establishment of new industries in the is a shocking indictment of the State that this should be so. Had this policy not been pur­ interior, in small places like Chinchilla, sued, I venture the opinion that to-day our Morven, and dozens of others. Therefore, I forest wealth would have been great enough appeal to the Government very strongly to to meet the national debt. treat the subject of reforestation as a highly important one. I notice that the vote has The Minister seems to be well versed in been increased by £12,000, but I should not reforestation and land matters in general, care if it had been increased by another and I suggest to him that there are three £15,000. I have no objection to the expen­ essentials in Queensland to-day. First is the diture of loan money on such projects as appointment of an expert or specialist with these. I think it was the Secret:lrr for Minrs experience of reforestation methods adopted in who hurled epithets across this Chamber other countries. Such a man could make a about the activities of other Governments, and survey of the whole of the State and frame a I believe it was the Secretary for Public Lands reforestation plan that would return the best himself who asked in defiant tones, ''What possible results. We know that in Scandi­ did they doF' He went on to exrlain that navia and all the countries round the Baltic, they had employed eight men oveT a period in Finland espeeially, the wealth of the of three years. I want to tell hon. members people comes from the forests. We know, that previous Governments have lsid the too, that if a pine or any other tree of com­ foundation for our present wonderful scheme mercial value is taken out of the forest, the of reforestation. The present Governmer,t, law provides that three must be planted in from the Premier down, have the habit of its place. The forests of this State could ridiculing previous Governments. be safeguarded and preserved by adopting that practice here. The CHAIRMAN: Order! After the appointment of the expert or specialist, a committee of men with scien­ Mr. YEATES: I propose to quote from a tific knowledge should be set up in the seat report presented to Parliament in 1914, in of government to advise the Minister on the the time of the Denham Government, to Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 751 substantiate my point that a previous Govern­ ahead in such matters as forestry. I want ment laid the foundation for the splendid to emphasise that fact in all seriousness, as forestry work of to-day. The report says- the subject is an important one. If the '' The total area permanently reserved­ Minister can continue expending more money viz., 989,308 acres-shows an increase of on forestry, consistently, of course, with 76,526 acres over the figures for the pre­ economy and efficiency, then I shall be with vious year, new areas to the extent of him. I do not know how long he will stay 82,600 acres having been proclaimed in his present position, but while he occupies permanent reserves, while the definite loca­ it he must keep the present forestry work tion of boundaries following on feature going. If he relinquishes office next ye:::r surveys accounted for a decrease of 6,074 then let him have a friendly talk with hiS acres. successor. I do urge him to continue along present lines. We do not want any fighting ''Of the 12 new State forests, two in the or squabbling about forestry. It is one mat­ Brisbane district containing 3,670 acres ter concerning which we can get rotmd the and one in the Gympie district containing table and decide what we should do in the 2,947 acres, have been set aside for the interests of the State. growth of eucalyptus, while the remainder, which are pine-bearing, are estimated to lUr. SLESSAR (Dalby) (12.29 p•.m.): A contain at least 250,000,000 feet of over­ great deal of consideration can be given to girth pine timber besides a considerable the important subject of forestry. I know stand of young trees. The bulk of the a considerable amount of forestry work has large-sized pine is contained in six reserves been carried out in the last few years. I in the Ipswich and N anango districts on have in mind many areas suitable for develop­ the headwaters of the Brisbane and Burnett ing forests, particularly in Western Queens­ Rivers.'' land and in the near West along the Downs where we have large tracts of very poor The Secretary for Public Lands: I am country held by selectors and graziers. This sure the Leader of the Opposition could not country is very suitable for the developme~t find those plantations. of cypress pine and hardwoods. Much of this Mr. YEATES: Let me pass to the land could be resumed by the Sub-Depart­ 1929-32 period when the Government occu­ ment of Forestry. I suggest to the Minister pied the Treasury ben·ches in that period who that it be resumed as it is not suitable for are often disparagingly spoken of by hon. agricultural or grazing purposes and that members opposite, particularly the hon. mem­ other areas be allotted to the selectors in ber for Baroona. He leads the way in lieu of it. partyism. I have told you that, Mr. Brass­ I have that in mind when the Government ington, long ago. RP. pokeR it np all the a.J.v giving considcrn.tion to the subdivision of while when any happening in the 1929-32 many areas where there is land suitable for period is mentioned. · grazing and agriculture. If careful considera­ The CHAIRlUAN: Order! The hon. tion was given to this point I feel it would member will be wasting the time of the be of tremendous advantage, not only to the Committee if he continues in that strain. Sub-Department of Forestry but to the settlers who are struggling on poor acreages lUr. YEATES: In the 1931-32 period the of land that are not of much value to them. Moore Government carried out the following I have seen so many settlers in the outback forestry plantings :- endeavouring to develop country that is not Acres. worth developing for agriculture or grazing that I feel they should get suitable land as Mary Valley 603 compensation for the work done on these selec­ Brisbane Valley 492 tions during the years that they have occupied Warwick 110 them, and their land should be taken for Brisbane 130 forestry purposes. North Coast 425 Atherton 172 I believe that Australia should grow all Kilkivan 42 the timber that is required in this country. Mackay 10 The shortage of timbers that we used to Maryborough 35 import from overseas before the war has Experimental 25 taught us a great deal. I have in mind the coastal belts, where we have excellent soft­ Total .. 2,044 woods, and the northern areas, where we have excellent timbers for all classes of manufac­ I just wanted to blow out hon. members on ture, including the finest furniture. We have that point. The Secretary for Mines, a in our inland areas some of the finest hard­ biased party man, hurls the insinuation wood timbers in the world. Cypress pine is a across the Chamber that the Governm'ent of very valuable wood and I do not agree with that day did nothing. I strongly object to the hon. member who has just resumed his it. I am here to stand up for the Moore seat in this regard. It is only during the Government and I am not ashamed to do so. last two years that the Government have They laboured under extreme difficulties; attempted to develop the cypress pine forests. people growled about the spending of money We are only starting to realise the tre­ and so forth. It ill-becomes any Minister to mendous advantages of cypress pine for build­ throw that slur across the Chamber. As I ing. I feel sure that when the public become have already told the hon. member for Wind­ educated to its value it will be used exten· sor, we must look 50 and even 100 years sively, particularly in the coastal belts and 752 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. in the inland areas, where white ants are very on these could be utilised. An investigation destructive. There are large tracts of country should be made. A fire may start outside the where the timber has been depleted, not only park and eventually extend to it and destroy by private enterprise for profit but by settlers these trees. I have been in several national endeavouring to carve out homes on areas parks, but in this connection I refer speci­ not suitable for agriculture, and areas that fically to Lamington National Park. The have been ravaged by bush fires, which have timber on these spurs, with their precipices destroyed millions of pounds' worth of valu­ and steep gradients, down which tourists able timber that should be coming into pro­ would not travel, should be utilised and not duction during the next 10 to 15 years. wasted. At 12.33 p.m., The SECRETARY !<'OR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland) (12.40 Mr. DART (Wynnum) relieved the Chair­ p.m.): I supplement the remarks of the man in the chair. Minister in regard to the need for scientific Mr. SLESSAR: Much thought has been and technical training in forestry. At present given by the officers of the department to this a boy, after attending the university, gradu­ aspect of forestry, but I think a great deal ates with a degree showing that he has had more money should be spent, particularly in scientific training. He then enters the public the dry areas, on the construction of fire­ service at a salary probably equivalent to ·breaks. This would be of value to the farm­ that of a young man of the same age and ing community in those areas, too, because grade in a clerical branch. A young man the disastrous fires always appear to begin who obtains the scientific training at a uni­ in a forest and then sweep onto private versity should receive a much higher salary property. While on the question of fires, I than an ordinary employee of the public suggest to the Minister that he give favour­ service. To-day, scientific men who were able consideration to assisting farmers to trained in Australia are working in America form committees to combat fires, and supply and England, and prior to the war were them with equipment. I have in mind the working in Europe at very high salaries system in New South Wales, where the com­ and receiving very great recognition. mittees have certain powers, supervised by These have been lost to Australia wardens, and equipment is supplied by the merely because there has been a failure not shire councils, subsidised by the Government, only in Queensland but throughout Australia or vice versa. I understand the Government to realise the value of scientifically trained and shire councils are interested. People who men. We shall require a very large number want to burn off, for instance, notify the com­ of highly trained scientific men in the future. mittee and it arranges for a band of workers Some remarks were made recently with to go out with fire-fighting equipment to help regard to the late Dr. Bradfield. He was an cany out this work, thus preventing the outstanding figure who went to other parts spread of bush fires to other areas. The of the world and subsequently returned to result is that bush fires are considerably Australia to carry out big works here-which, reduced. Something on those lines will have of course, touches my work activities as Sec­ to be done here; it would not only save retary for Public Works-and as reforesta­ valuable forests but be of considerable advan­ tion is a very important matter I emphasise tage to settlers. I feel quite sure that forestry the necessity, and will continue to do so, of will bring in a tremendous amount of revenue giving adequate consideration to the question :for the State in the future. of higher salaries and status and greater Many private sawmills are offering, or recognition to those who are scientifically would undertake to spend, additional money trained than in the past. Soil erosion, also, if they were assured of a reasonable con­ needs investigation. We shall, in fact, require tinuity of supplies. I understand that many a large number of men scientifically trained sawmillers are doubtful as to their future in many directions, and they will not remain when a certain area of timber has been cut with us unless we improve their status and out. They cannot get a guarantee that they emoluments generally. will have another area in more or less close In Australia we have amongst our younger proximity to their mill allotted to them, generation material from which we can pro­ and I should like the Minister to give some duce highly qualified men. We see the ruling on the point and consideration, so that enomous application of science to war to-day millers can conduct and invest their money in and if we are to have the benefit of that sawmills with confidence. science in the future in such matters as reforestation and other activities that we The TEMPORARY CHAIRlUAN: Order! h·rn e discussed during the session for post­ There is altogether far too much noise in the war reconstruction, consideration will have to Chamber. be given to the status and standards of those men to whom we shall look for the rectifica­ ~Ir. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (12.38 p.m.): There is just one matter I wish to tion of m:any things in land settlement, refer to as arising from my speech on the building, engineering, chemistry, and all those Chief Office vote. It relates to the timber in things that are essential to the proper carry­ national parks. Hon. members who have ing out of work in a country such as Austra­ visited national parks will realise that there lia. are a number of what may be called spurs Mr. DEVRIES (Gregory) (12.44 p.m.): that are inaccessible and so cannot be used Reforestation is very important work, not as an attraction for tourists and the timber only to a national housing scheme but also Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 753 for the beautification vf the country. I have I n1ust confess that I became somewhat had the opportunity vf travelling through envious \Yhen I pondered the fact that the Victoria and seeing for myself the wonderful great open spaces of the West would not be forests there. I refer mainly to the huge able to enjoy reforestation to any extent. forests adjacent to the Great Lakes from However, if effect is given to the irriga­ which the water supply vf BallaTat is drawn. tion schemes proposed from time to time in In Queensland, in the western parts of the this Chamber it will be possible for Western State in particular, local authorities that have Queensland to have its reforestation as well had the foresight to take advantage of the as the areas on the coast. moneys that have been made available from time to time fvr irrigation and water supply The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS have ta:~en a keen interest in the beautifica­ (Hon. E. J. Walsh, Mirani) (12.51 p.m.): tion of their towns. In the towns, such as I should like to tell the Leader of the Opposi­ J"ongrcach, situated 440 miles inland, a water tion at the outset that what he advocated in supply has been developed from the local connection with forestry planning is already river, and the local authority has interested being done by the Government. He asked itself in reforestation to the extent of that money be made available for this work obtaining supplies of young trees and making but he said that a greater proportion of them available to the people free of cvst on revenue should be used for this purpose. ln the condition that each plants a tree in the the past it was the policy to make the greater street in which he lives. This has dor<~) mneh part of the money required for forestry work t0 beautify the town. So it is that 1 say available from loan funds but in later years that reforestation shall be looked at not only by far the greater part of it was allocated from the point of view of national housing from revenue. Therefore the Leader of the but also from the point of view of the Opposition should commend the Government beautification of our cities and towns. In for their policy in this respect. the far West we are not able to undertake Mr. Nickiin: If that is so, I will. any large refvrestation work, and even if it were possible to do so on the timberless The SECRETARY :FOR PUBLIC LANDS: plains of Western Queensland, we should live I do not know whether the hon. gentleman in constant fear of the great bu"h fires wishes m·e to give the figures to the Commit­ that break out there from' time to time. In tee. Usually I do not like quoting figures; Victoria land is planted with trees for the I much prefer to say what I have to say purpose of making wind- and fire-breaks, but without regard to statistics at all. They are we in Western Queensland are not able to do all available in the various reports. It is that. We have to be content to rely on of interest to note that the Government of grading the ground to prevent bush fires from whom the hon. gentleman was a supporter spreading, but it is gratifying to see the expended various amounts on forestry work beautification that is developing in some of from loan funds but only a small amount the towns of the West. Each tree that is from relief funds. The amounts expended planted becomes a national asset. If it by that Government were:- cannot be used for commercial purposes at £ least it is valuable for the important purpose 1929-30 29,832 of beautification. The experiment plots at 1930-31 40,736 schools in the West demonstrate beyond 1931-32 42,347 doubt that trees can be grown in any part of the State even if there is not a heavy rain­ Of those sums £16,339 was expended in fall. There are many parts vf the State 1930-31 and £22,347 in 1931-32 from relief where the trees can be grown although the money, the balance coming entirely from loan soil may not support prolific growth, but funds. Therefore, it would appear that these difficulties of both soil and rainfall can during the period 1929 to 1932, when the be overcome in many western towns with the Moore Government were in power, they did result that avenues of trees now grace their not make any money from revenue available streets. We can follow the good example for forestry other than the amounts that set by Victoria with its long winding roads I have quoted as coming from the Unemploy­ and avenues of trees. ment Relief Fund. In later years we find that of a total of £243,000 spent on forestry I was interested in the contribution to the in 1940-41, £175,145 came from revenue and debate by the hon. member for Nanango, that out of a total of £227,000 spent in who pointed out that his district was fortun­ 1941-42, £193,080 came from revenue. ate enough to be able to go in for The fact remains that what the Leader of reforestation. I know that this has been the Opposition desires should be done is being possible in certain parts of the Barcoo done by this Government. electorate, notably round Clermont, where reforestation has been carried on during the I,inlced with that is the amount of revenue past few years. I hope that those lands that that can be made available. As I pointed out can be used for reforestation will eventually earlier, the amount available to the Govern­ be used for that purpose so as to build up ment has to be distributed throughout all a national asset. Recently I had the pleasure our industries. The Leader of the Opposition vf going over the Palen Creek prison farm and the members of the Committee generally where I noticed thousands of young trees can rest assured that the Government will were growing, which, I suppose, will be see to it, once they have started this plan, planted out in districts such as Marburg and that there will be a continuity of operations. other places that are ideal for reforestation. That is very desirable. I agree with the 754 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Leader of the Opposition that the policy assured that the Government are going to should not be a piecemeal one, otherwise the give considerable attention to the forestry good work carried out in one year might part of their policy in the future. Much easily be destroyed in the course of a year good work has been done and much know­ or two through lack of continuity. ledge and experie11ce have been obtained The hon. member for Nanango desires that from it. first-class agricultural areas should not be May I say in conclusion that although resumed for forestry purposes. The Govern­ the Leader of the Opposition disagrees with ment do not intend to resume on a large scale the planting of hardwoods in the Beerwah first-class agricultural land for forestry pur­ area experience has to be obtained somewhere poses, but small selections may exist here and to prove whether hardwoods can be grown there within a forestry area, and in order successfully in any part of that district~ If to provide for proper planning, having regard the experiment proves a failure, naturally the to road construction, fire-breaks, and other department will not proceed with its activities protective work resumptions will be necessary in that area. in order to consolidate the forestry area.. That factor will be given particular atten­ At 2.15 p.m., tion because the menace of fires in our forest The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. stands has been and is still great, particularly under present-day conditions, when through Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) : I wish to say lack of man-power this protective work cannot how we appreciate the information supplied be carried out. It is therefore a serious by the Minister during this discussion. I am problem. I have from time to time made delighted to know the Minister is aware of appeals to the man on the land to see that the destruction of our hardwood timbers, fires are kept under control as far as possible, which is even greater than that of our to avoid the destruction of timber generally, softwoods. That is a point I wish to discuss apart altogether from forestry areas. -the preservation of our hardwood timbers. The hon. member for Maree made reference I appreciate the fact that it is much easier to the destruction of timber in the past. With to build up supplies of softwoods by reforesta­ these remarks I agree, as will every hon. tion than of hardwoods, but something will member. No doubt very little notice was have to be done to preserve the hardwoods taken of the value of timber stands on Crown growing in their natural state. I have in mind lands in years gone by. The hon. member for the wholesale destruction of our hardwoods Cooroora, with his very wide experience, both on freehold and leasehold lands. knows land was cut up for settlement pur­ poses and no thought was given to the timber Much has been said about the destruction growing on it. Cedar, walnut, silky oak, of all classes of timber in days gone by. One maple, a:nd other valuable trees were cut down point made by the Minister was that it would and destroyed simply to provide for some perhaps have been much better for a number settlement plan, notwithstanding that the of landholders if they had saved the timber timber on those areas was far more valuable instead of clearing the land and using it for than the income that could be earned from agriculture and grazing. I doubt that very the land for a number of years from dairying much. It may be true in isolated cases, but, or agriculture. generally speaking, I think the Minister was mistaken. The better class of land could be I pointed out in my opening remarks that much more profitably used for agricultural the study of the scientific side of forestry and pastoral purposes. was very necessary and T remind the Corn­ mittee that the Government, as well as the I am concerned about the quantity of Director of Forestry, Mr. Grenning, have timber that could be preserved if some encour­ given attention to this matter. Mr. Grenning agement was given to landholders to protect was trained in our own university and the timber on their holdings. We are all possesses a good knowledge of Queensland more or less destroying timber, and we all conditions, which is very desirable in forestry appreciate the fact that it is a national duty work. It is only a few years ago that the to preserve it, but we have to remember that Government sent Mr. Grenning overseas. He anyone who takes up land does so to make a tra.velled through America and Europe, and living; in other words, he has to make it pay. thus acquired information which has been of It has been said that you cannot grow trees considerable benefit in this State. It is and grass, but you can grow some trees and interesting to know, too, that four of our can­ some grass. There should be some induce­ didates have won the Slick medal, a coveted ment to grow some trees. Under the present prize awarded by a European professor who conditions the people who preserve those trees was very interested in forestry work and that are not being compensated for doing so. I on each occasion that a Queensland candidate am in the position to-day-and I am sure has entered for the examination for this there are several others in a similar position medal he has succeeded in winning it. The -that as soon as we can get labour we shall Government have taken a keen interest in be ringbarking timber in order that the our local cadets and have been training our country may grow more grass. On the other own men for the forestry service. They are hand, we realise that a national duty devolves still with the department, although tem­ upon every one of us to preserve timber if porarily absent in the fighting services, and we possibly can. I put it from the business we hope to have the benefit of their services viewpoint. The price of timber to the mill again when hostilities cease. is no more to-day than 20 years ago; as a The vote has been generally commended by matter of fact, in a great many cases it is hon. members. The Committee can rest less. In 1926 I sold hardwood timber, good Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 755 ironbark and spotted gum, for 5s. on the of poor quality, but one will see every day stump, and as far as I can ascertain no landowners going out with arsenic solutions miller will pay that to-day. The point is and other poisons onto spotted-gum country that whilst sawn timber has increased in price and destroying every tree on the property. very considerably, the price to the man who Later, you will see the seedlings coming up. owns the tree is not increased; on the con­ The saplings grow very quickly and if the trary, in a great many eases it has decreased. better timber was preserved and the rubbish What are we going to do~ On the other hand, destroyed it would be worth while. But we see wholesale slaughter of timber. I feel no-one will do that for a miserable return of that the Minister should see that the man 3s. a 100 superficial feet. Nobody could do who takes care of his trees is compensated in that and at the same time pay the charges some way. If some such inducement was to hold his land. When :flying over the vast given, quite a lot of country that will grow State of Queensland, one sees very good hard­ ironbark, spotted gum, and other hardwoods wood country and one begins to wonder why that grow very quickly would carry more of we should be short of hardwood. I agree them. A big percentage of grazing land with everything the Minister said this morn­ requires ringbarking every 20 years, but ing. I made a similar statement: that we are saplings come up and if the Government want getting dangerously short of hardwood, but to do so they can make it worth while for on going through the country one cannot help the owner, leaseholder, or freeholder to seeing the quantity of hardwood trees in the destroy the inferior timbers and protect the bush. Certainly, most of it is rubbish, but better timbers. In that way we should have something can be done and I believe that pro­ not a thick stand of trees all over the vision could be made to compensate the owners country but some for shade and for timber in of lands on which there are hardwood trees the days to come. if he will but preserve them. That is the only method by which we can supplement our :Mr. J. F. Barnes: Would you suggest 3s. timber supply. If we set aside special lands a lOO feeH for that purpose it will be altogether too :Mr. MULLER: I suggest much more costly, ever so much more costly than what I than 3s. a lOO superficial feet, considering suggested a moment ago. that for the milled article, cut into suitable The hon. member for Bundaberg inter­ lengths for building purposes, at one time one jected that a subsidy might be given. I dis­ had to pay 30s. a 100 superficial feet for like subsidies, but there may be something in first-class hardwood, and I have seen it as his suggestion that the Government find some much as £3 a 100 superficial feet. of the money to ensure that those landowners who protect the timber are compensated. In :Mr. J. F. Barnes: I meant a subsidy of my opinion, that is the only solution of that 3s. a 100 superficial feet from the Govern­ problem. We can supplement our softwood ment. I did not mean 3s. to be the price. supplies by systematic reforestation, because :Mr. MULLER: I do not care which way the whole thing can be kept under control it is done, but that is something in the nature easily; but for hardwoods, the method I have of a subsidy and just now I do not propose suggested would be the more economical. to discuss it from that angle. It is the respon­ Mr. DART (Wynnum) (Z'.26 p.m.) : I sibility of the Minister to see that this timber have very much pleasure in supporting the is preserved in some way, and I believe it Minister's reforestation scheme, but there is can be preserved, but it is not a bit of good much work to be done before the timber will complaining about the price of timber if we be of use to the State. Starting this work permit the miller, the trader, and everyone now we cannot expect results in our time, and else to increase prices whereas the man who we are aware that in the not-far-distant is doing the real service is overlooked. The future there will be a great expansion in man who protects the trees must be protected. house-building. Workers' dwellings and If he did not protect the trees there would be workers' homes and private houses must be no logs to be milled. That is where we should erected. All these structures will not be of begin. I was rather concerned to find in my brick and mortar and even though many are, own electorate within the last 12 months parts of them will necessarily be of timber. that millers were complaining of not being able to get logs for milling purposes, but, A good deal of classifying, zoning, and on investigation, I found that they would .Pay other work will have to be done in making only 2s. or 3s. a 100 superficial feet for those provision for the production of timber. trees on the stumps, notwithstanding that People have been too prone to destroy good the prices for milled timber have advanced timber in the past. Years ago I visited the considerably. It would appear that everyone, Collinsville district and saw scrubs of good including the miller, the trader, and the millable pine burning. In my opinion our employee in the sawmill, is protected but not pioneers wasted more timber than they the man to whom we look to preserve the should as prudent settlers. Of course. these men bought the land and, in order to make a trees. He gets no encouragement at all. living from it, they had to clear it of timber, I quite appreciate the difficulties. It is and it has to be remembered that thll price very difficult to deal with freehold land and paid for timber in those days was very low. prevent the owner from doing what he likes I have sold hardwood for as low as 2s. 6d. at on his own property, but I think that if the the stump, and I should think that my trees freeholder or leaseholder got some encourage­ had been growing for 100 years before they ment to husband these trees he would grow were of any commercial value. I have not them. Spotted gum will usually grow on land had much to do with softwoods. 756 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Another matter that will have to be con­ Mr. DART: For different parts of the sidered is ringbarking. Too much ringbarking building, even for flooring in some instances. has been done on some lands. There are some Wheelwrights and blacksmiths will tell you lands on which ringbarking must be done in that spotted gum is very useful for making order to cull out the worst classes of timber shafts because it is more pliable and will bend so that the best will thrive, but many people more easily than ironbark. Of course, cabinet have ringbarked land that is not suitable for timber is in a different class. It will grow growing grass. Their object was to promote proliiically where the vine scrubs are to be good growth in grass, but on the unsuitable found but if you try to grow it at Stanthorpe, lands the grass that did grow dried off in or in some other cooler district, you will fail. drought with the result that erosion took The cabinet timber grows to perfection in the place, and this has been the cause of the silt­ heavy chocolate soil to be found in vine ing up of streams such as those in the Mount scrubs. Perry area and in all the country from there Mr. O'Shea.: Are you the gentleman who down to the Burnett. Silting up has taken played the leading roll in "TaH Timber"~ place because of bad management by men who expected good grass to grow where it Mr. DART: I had some timber on my would not. Certainly some grass did grow property, some of it tall timber and some of while the season was good, but when drought it short. There are many matters that will set in the grass dried up and erosion took have to be taken into consideration by the place, especially at the heads of many of our Minister before he spends money on refores­ streams. To-day we iind that many streams tation. I know that he has a fair knowledge that were 6 or 8 feet wide at their source of what is required, but he will not get very are now only about 2 feet wide there, all far unless he has the guidance of experts, because ringbarking was done where it should men who have a practical knowledge of not have been done. We must see to it that timber, of how it will grow, and where it only lands suitable for grazing are ring­ will grow. Reforestation is very useful, of barked. I suggest that if we are going to course, and should be undertaken in the undertake reforestation work we must get interests of posterity. There is a certain back to the high country, to the poorer land amount of timber available for the people of that will grow nothing but trees. this generation and for that fact we must thank our predecessors, whoever they were. Mr. Edwa.rds: What is the good of it to In their wisdom they reserved timber for selectors if it will grow only trees~ Queensland's future needs, and we are enjoy­ ing the benefit to-day, and it is our duty in Mr. DART: The selector does not take up turn to cater for the requirements of future 1,000 acres expecting every inch of it to pro­ generations. duce good grass for dairying. Part of that The first thing the Minister must do is to land must be reserved for timber-growing. see that the trees are protected when they are If he puts such areas under reforestation it planted. There is no use in planting the will arrest much of the erosion that is taking trees if they are to be destroyed immediately place now. by bush iires. All steps must be taken to see On the coast areas we see trees growing to that they are properly protected. Fire-breaks 100 feet high, whilst in the country, in the may have to be constructed and laws passed colder climates of Stanthorpe, for instance, to punish people who are careless in the use we see trees with no barrel at all, just a of matches and in the making of fires. A bushy top, which proves that the climate has large area of Queensland is situated in the a great deal to do with the growth of a tree, tropics and is therefore very vulnerable from and in selecting lands for reforestation pur­ the point of view of bushiires. I was pre­ poses we must see to it that we choose land pared last Sunday week to go and help a in a place suitable for the type of timber band of men who were fighting bushfires, but we wish to grow. On the coastal belt we see luckily a storm broke and our services were trees growing to a great height whilst inland unnecessary. they are short and of very little commercial The Secreta.ry for Public La.nds: They value. say that you started one at Hamilton last night when you said there were only two Mr. Wa.lker: Nuggety. green vegetables available, pumpkins and beans. Mr. DART: That is one way of describ­ ing them, but they are short and of very Mr. DART: I advanced a very sound little value as milling timbers. The Minister argument when I said that we should try to would be well advised to make a complete produce more and of better quality. We are survey of the State in order to ensure that not now dealing with vegetables, although the he does his reforestation work on the land Minister would like to draw me onto that most suited to the growing of the class of subject. I am dealing with reforestation. I timber he requires. ask the Minister to use his best endeavours to see that everything is done to protect our In the hardwoods ironbark and spotted gum timber reserves and to give employment. First are hard to beat. These timbers are used in of all, let us produce the goods and in so nearly every part of house·building. They doing give employment that will mean much will grow along the coast quite well. benefit for Queensland. The Secretary for Public La.nds: What Mr. PLUNKETT (Albert) (2.36 p.m.): A do you use ironbark and spotted gum for in sound policy of reforestation is a very neces­ house-building~ sary one in this country. I was interested to Supply. [7 OCTOBER.) Supply. 757 hear the remarks of hon. members concerning It has taken the place of timbers formerly the need for increasing our softwood and used for that purpose. Previously we used hardwood supplies and to hear the fears about five different timbers fo·r building and expressed of the threatened shortage of both. got rid of all others as fast as W1e could, It has been said that we are likely to have a and we are now ente:ring upon a new building shortage of hardwood, but I hold the view era that we are likely to have a shortage of soft­ To-day, because of the shortage of hoop wood first. Queensland, being the best­ pine for the manufacture of butter boxes, timbered State of Australia, was called upon Melbourne is manufacturing a fibre box to provide supplies of softwood to the which may be used for all time for the export Southern States. That practice has gone on of dairy produce, because the scarcity of for a number of years, and if Queensland had hoop pine has compelled people to turn their failed us in this respect I do not know what attention to· other materials. Experiments we should have done in connection with the mad'e with this class of butter box h-ave export of butter. All the timber that was proved it to be a good container. Masonite required for butter boxes came from Queens­ has been manufactured in Newcastl.e from land, and the fact that we had to provide hardwood timber and pulp. It is extraordin­ supplies for New South \Vales and Victoria arily hard and a nail can . be driven. t~rough meant that our hoop-pine reserves were it right near the edge without. sphttmg It. seriously depleted. I am wholeheartedly in It is true that we should embark on a refores­ support of a policy for the reforestation of tation policy to grow such timbers as we softwoods, as well as a policy of protecting desire but we must not overlook the fact our hardwoods to a greater extent than they that i~ future the use of timber will be ;lis­ are protected to-day, but I cannot follow the carded in many cases where it is being 'lsed argument th 758 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

1revenue surplus to sw.ell the Gov•ernment 's name a tree after nearly every hon. member eredit balance. in the House. It is amazing to see how these trees have grown. Strange to say, one tree The Secretary for Public Lands: That is was named "Walker" and another "Dun­ not se in recent years. I quoted figures this stan,'' and it is only fair to mention that morning to the contrary. the Walker tree has beaten the Dunstan tree. (Laughter.) Mr. WALKER: What the Minister said is right to a certain extent, biut what I say The Sei)retary for Public Lands: And is sound because the figures I have prove it being a vain old man you had your photo­ conclusively. graph taken. The Secretary for Public Lands: I should like you to quote the figures. Mr. WALKER: Unfortunately, it was never published. (Laughter.) That timber Mr. WALifER: The Minister thinks I has been brought down and it has thrown have not got them. (Laughter.) The figures the Minister's calculations out to a certain .are as follows:- extent, and we shall have to pay for it in future because that has taken away the Loan reserve that was to fill the gap between the Revenue Expenditure growing of the pine and the selling. It is Year. Surplus. for unfortunate, and something must be done in Reforestation. the meantime. Ever since the la'te Mr. Coyne went there the various Ministers in charge have done wonderful work in that area in £ £ 1935-36 270,527 107,000 planting, and it is surprising the way the 1936-37 286,347 87,756 timber has groWn. But there is a disad­ 1937-38 335,599 99,380 vantage in regard to it, and I know the Minis­ ter, as a practical farmer, will realise the Hon. members will see that the figures bear danger of bush fires. Great care must be out the statements I have made, and the taken to have fire-breaks or blocks to stop Minister has for once in his life fallen in. forest fires. Hon. members on both sides (Laughter.) know that after it is felled timber is not all burnt off at the first fire, and as time During the last 25 y;ears great work has goes on saplings appear. The timber takes been done in forestry. In the early days probably two or three years to die, an~ th~n Governments could not spend much on refores­ is in its most dangerous state, because 1t will tation because the royalty on pine timber­ even catch alight from sparks of fires 100 that is, when I first became a member of the yards or so away. That has been responsible House-was 6d. a 100 superficial foot, and for the destruction of some magnificent areas you were very lucky to get that in all cases. of land. It is a great pity, and I hope the At that time we had large reserves\ including Sub-Department of Forestry will take that the whole of the Mary Valley timoer, which danger into consideration. is the biggest commercial area I know of to-day. The Kingaroy timber was untouched, The hon. member for Fassifern referred to :and 6d. a 100 superficial foot would be a fair spotted gum, and I would direct attention to .and reasonable pri0e for the Government to the destruction of both flooded and spottea get in those days. Since the war started I gum. I do not refer to the big millable know the Minister has not been altogether timbers, but one can see 3 or 4-ton lorries free to carry out his policy as he would have trailing jinkers carrying as many as 30 or liked because we have had to do a great deal 40 logs-although I should not call them :for war purpo·ses. It is only fair to say that. logs; they are really saplings. They are being We had large reserv.es of timber for which we ta'ken to sawmills. That is a criminal action. got £1 a 100 superficial feet., whereas the We are all to blame for that. This has been Government could not get 6d. 30 or 35 years going on for years, and that timber, instead ago. Those reserves have been exploited of being used for cases, should be kept for because we had to do it to meet the demand more valuable work. This sub-department has by the military authorities, probably through not carried out experim'ents with other woods the Federal Government. Those res·erves, to be used as case timbers. There are enor­ which were almost inaccessible, have been cut mous areas of scrub la'nds carrying dense into. It is surprising to see where they got vines and scrub. Will anybody tell me that the timber from-places that were too steep to-day there is no timber in those scrubs that :for the old bullock. They use tractors very could not be used for cases~ Experiments effectiv•ely as well as other methods that are should be made, and I should like the Minister lrnown to timber-getters. to see that it is done. For instance, we have Mr. Dunstan: Do not forget the Walker tea trees on the coast. Can they not be used and Dunstan pine trees at Imbil nursery. for some purposes f There is no need to cart the timber long distances; small sawmills ltLr. WALKER: I am glad the hon. mem­ could be established on the spot. A man ber for Gympie has reminded me of that willing to invest £500 or £600 in a sawmill timber. It proves conclusively what I said could establish it at such places. I venture previously that the Imbil experiment is a the opinion that we have hundreds of species good one.' I do not recall who was Minister of timber that could be used in experimental at the time, but I think it was the late work, and 50 per cent. would be found fit for Harry Coyne, and he was courteous enough to commercial use. Consider the enormous waste Supply. [7 OCTOBER.) Supply. 759 that is going on to-day cutting these beauti­ Mention of that reminds me 'Of an occasion ful long saplings, in some instances running that I think the Minister remembers very: up to 50 feet, but only 6 inches at the butt. welL It refers to the use of boxwood­ Thirty or forty years ago no-one ever thoug~t; As one who lives in a timber district and of using boxwood, but if anyone who 1s: sees this going on every day, I ask the Minis­ thinking of building a home cares to go tG ter to get busy about this flooded gum. If the Kenilworth Hotel he will see there box­ allowed to grow to a circumference of three wood flooring that is equal to the inlaid! feet or more, it is one of the finest timbers flooring here in Parliament House. I~ makes in the world for house-building, for weather­ beautiful polished flooring, and no lmoleum boards in particular. is needed. Until a few years ago the only We come now to the east side of the rail­ place at which I had known boxwood to .be­ way line between Brisbane and Maryborough, used was in the construction of a tramline where we have some of the finest stands of running out from Tin Can Bay. There it what we used to call the second-grade hard­ was used instead of steel for the rails, and woods, the· soft hardwoods, such as red although they are worn because of the stringy, blackbutt, and turpentine. It m.ust weather conditions, those rails have not have grieved the Minister very m.uch to see decayed or rotted in any way. those turpentines running up to 60 and 70 feet I can only speak in terms of th~ highes:&; long, some of them only a foot at the bottom, praise of the Minister's work. I thmk the:re­ being sent away for military purposes, and is almost unanimity on both sides as to; thus upsetting the calculations of the Minister importance of reforestation work and safe­ and all those people who like to see forestry guarding our timbers and I hope that the done under proper conditions. I realise that Minister will continue with this good work. this must go on, that it cannot be stopped as these timbers are being sent to New Guinea and Darwin and being used for war Tile SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. E. J. Walsh, Mirani) (3.3 p.m.): Most purposes, but it means that the Minister and of us know the hon. member for Cooroora his officers will have to look ahead with a very well, but none oi' us would suspect that view to substituting other types of timbers, he would find it necessary to carry a gun and in the meantime do everything possible for self-protection in his peregrinations to protect the remaining saplings of the same through the various scrubs in his electorate. species from the ravages of the huge fires (Laughter.) Of course, nobody would accuse that we have at times. him of carrying a gun for any other purpose. \Ve come then to the reforestation scrubs (Renewed laughter.) running up to Double Island Point. About The hon. member for Fassifern and the six or eight years! ago pine-planting was hon. member for Albert raised the old argu­ started in that area. The planting and the ment of grass versus timber, but I am afraid seedlings were good, and burning was light they have not given much practical thought because of the heavy rainfall, but it is being to the subject although one would have­ menaced by fire to-day. Hon. mem.bers may expected that those two hon. members, each ask how I know these things. I know them representing a rural area, would have had because I love to go into the bush, not only considerable experience of the land. I am. to observe the growth of trees, but because sme the hon. member for Cooroora wouldl I have another object in view, and I like not agree with their remarks concerning the to carry a gun-to protect myself. destruction of timber for the growth of a (Laughter.) I ask those responsible to see little grass. The mistaken idea still exists; that these plantings are protected by making that you must ring all the timber to make fire-breaks. Do not wait until the spring to the land suitable for grazing, but I advise do it. This work should be done during the the hon. member for Albert and others winter, because then we have none of the similarly minded and interested in this aspeet foreign growths that are so numerous on of the problem to take a trip to the Oooroom the coast. We should get to work and have electorate, to the Mary Valley area, to see them cleaned up immediately. The Minister the regeneration work that was done there, may say that he is short of labour. No doubt how the useless timber was removed so that he is. We all are, and if that is the case a chance could be given to the more suitable with him, then we shall have to run the risk trees. They will find that those areas are of fire. It will be no use blaming him next quite suitable for grazing even when carrying year if we have no labour to carry out this a fairly high proportion of suitable hard­ V\"ork, but I do urge him to see to it that woods. There is not a very high proportion pianting is done on the right side of the hills of hardwood areas in this State. One might: along the coast. Do not have the plants go over a large tract of land and find an exposed to the heavy winds that we experi­ area of 100 acres carrying hardwood, but iru ence on the coast from time to time. We that 100 acres one would be lucky to find have a wonderful future, but in the mean­ 200 trees of commercial value. There wou]di tim·e let us endeavour to use inferior types not be anything wrong in leaving those trees· of timber for cases, and let us use some­ to grow, even if one did want the grass for thing other than the best pine for ordinary grazing purposes. There is no need to destroy· house-building. What is the use of putting every tree on the block. There is the mistaken

I am not going to say that we have exer­ That is one of the timbers no-one cared about cised strict control over Crown lessees. It because of the usual prejudice, but when :you has not been exercised in the past. Only see it you must admit that nothing could be this morning a grazing selector called on me more beautiful. and po_inted out how a neighbour of his, also a grazmg selectOT, had got a permit to ring­ llir. lUacdonald: It takes some handling bark and had gone straight through the though. property ringbarking beautiful tall ironbarks The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: and. bloodwo_od ~nd so on. When a permit That is so, like ironbark. to rmgbark rs grven it does not mean that a man is allowed to destroy everything on the l\Ir. lliacdonald: It is the worst timber in property or that that is necessary in order to the world to handle. make it suitable for grazing. Some control will have to be exercised in the future. When The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: the Act passed last session is proclaimed we It is true that the sawyer does not like to hope to be able to set up machinery that handle ironbark because it turns the teeth will give a greater degree of control than of his saw up. As a result of the war, many we have had in the past. The hon. member of the prejudices against our native timbers for Fassifern suggested that people should be have been broken down. We have, therefore, compensated for conserving timber but 1 derived some advantage from the war. Many want to point out that they have a duty not timbers classed as useless in the pre-war days only to themselves but also to the country. are now taking their places on the market and They have no right to destroy the timber in are eagerly sought after. Hon. members will the first place, and if it costs them nothing remember the story of the rise in popularity to grow the timber and it reaches a com­ of silky-oak. It was said on one occasion mercial value, then they are getting a return that the settlers used to build their cowbails in the form of cash for something that cost and outhouses, as well as fences, from silky­ them nothing. oak, while the Chinese growers shipped The hon. member for Fassifern also sug­ bananas to the Southern markets in silky-oak gested they should be able to get 5s. or 6s. a crates. Their fellow countrymen in Melbourne 100 superficial feet, which is expecting a really brought silky-oak to the forefront, as rather good return. Many thousands of feet they saved the timber from the crates and of timber are disposed of from Crown lands made furniture from it. The war must be at not more than 6d. a 100 superficial feet. credited with breaking down the prejudice We have to make it available to meet the Australians have had against other timbers. needs of the community, especially in these This morning I referred to the destruction times. of timbers. In doing so I did not have in Mr. Nicklin: One does not get much for mind hardwood so much as the beautiful 6d. these days. timbers in the jungle areas, where settlers destroyed great quantities. Anyone The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: with experience of Northern conditions knows I am referring to areas where the department how these settlers slaughtered these beautiful may have an upset rate and a contract is trees to grow maize or sugar-cane. Probably submitted to the department for the harvest­ the wealth lost in the destruction of those ing of the timber in the area. For instance, timbers was far greater than the income the upset rate might be 9s., whereas the earned in the growing of those crops. person concerned has contracted to harvest the timber for Ss. 6d. a 100 superficial feet. Mr. Macdonald: There was no market His costs would have to come out of the 9s. for that timber then. In other instances the return might be only 4s. Thousands of feet of timber have been The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: harvested from Crown lands but, unfortun­ It was up to the people to make the market. ately, as the hon. member for Cooroora pointed The hon. member should not make apologies out, we have to do it in these days to meet of that sort. I am frank enough to admit that war needs. The timber is really being Australians, as a whole, have not appreciated murdered. Hon. members will notice that in the assets they have in this country. There the past two years forestry revenue has is no use denying it-they have not, either, declined despite a record harvest of hard­ realised the wealth that lies in the land of woods and so on, despite the fact that in this country. You notice very few native­ some directions we have had increased cuts. born Australians settling on and making their That is a phase of the war and it is a very homes on the land. serious one from the point of view of future Mr. Macdonald: They have not the love requirements. It is a pity to see beautiful for the land. logs, 60, 70, and 100 feet long, being cut for the building of wharves, but there is no The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: alternative at the moment. Unfortunately, Whether it is love for the land or not, environ­ that must be done in these times. ment is very largely responsible. The Aus­ Then we have the other phase of it, as the tralian is reared in a carefree spirit, which hon. member for Cooroora again pointed out. has not encouraged him to shackle himself I might say I was privileged to accompany for the rest of his life in developing a piece him on a visit to his electorate and I antici­ of land. Probably, there is something in that. pated what he was going to say about the People who come from the more settled areas floor of the Kenilworth Hotel he spoke of. overseas realise, to a greater degree than he It was scrub-box and it is a beautiful floor. does, the value of a couple of hundred acres Supply. [7 OcTOBER.] Supply. 761 in this State. Take my electorate. The per­ used to-day for ease-making that were not centage of native-born Australians who settle acceptable previously. Many industries have on the land in my electorate is very small; their prejudices, and the fruitgrowers used to therefore, we have prejudices against every­ insist on first-class pine for the manufacture thing that is made in Australia. In pre-war of cases, but they had to forget those preju­ days people were willing to buy goods that di

IRRIGATION AND WATER SUPPLY. The estimated cost of the 16 weirs at the time was £132,000. Since the present Minister Tlte SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS assumed control of this department he has (Hon. E. J. Walsh, Mirani) (3.21 p.m.): I shown a good deal of interest in the Lockyer move- Creek, and I might say that his foresight in ''That £33,432 be granted for 'Irriga- establishing one excellent weir, the Wilson tion and Water Supply.'" Weir, named after His Excellency the Hon. members have shown a keen interest Governor, within the grounds of the Gatton in the activities of this sub-department and Agricultural College, has been amply rewarded ·the problems of irrigation generally, and in by the fact that an American hospital is now ·this vote I have again to emphasise that it located thereabouts, and this weir has been of does not necessarily indicate the amount the inestimable value to the hospital authorities. e groups of farmers to visit increased production has followed the installa­ the Lockyer district to m·ake a survey of what tion of plants. The people there are very has been achieved there. A review of the· happily situated in the sense that the City suce,ess that has been obtained: there would be Electric Light Co. has taken its transmission very helpful to· other parts of the State. lines right through the area r.nd it has been Nature has given us a great country. There· possible for the farmers to obtain the benefit is nothing more beautiful in the world than of electric power for pumping purposes. Queensland. It lies to our own initiativ.e and There has been som·e slight handicap here enterprise whether we make the best use of it and there because of the delays in getting or not. Our population is expanding. When electric motors but on the whole there has the war is over w.e may have to a'bsorb sur­ been a very great advance, so that improved plus populations, to· give, as Hitler has been. water supplies plus electric power have pleased to describe it, living space not only revolutionised the whole of the Lockyer to the people of Germany but the people of friendly European nations. Thes·e schemes of district and it is rapidly expanding in pro­ water conservation and irrigation are of the duction, population, and wealth. Not only greatest importance. are the weirt, the water-hole~ and the creeks drawn upon. When the former Premier, the Much has been said of the late Dr. Brad­ Hon. W. Forgan Smith, authorised an field's great scheme. I regret to note that investigation into the possibilities of the this fine Australian and highly capable and 764 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. indeed distinguished man has recently passed Mr. WALKER (Cooroora) (3.46 p.m.): away. He left behind a splendid legacy to This is a very important vote. Most of us the Australian people in the scheme he sub­ who have lived in Queensland for a number mitted for the div-ersion of water from the of years realise that although there is a heavy east area of the main dividing range to the rainfall on the coast, it is not regular. I drier areas in our western country It is a realise the importance of an irrigation scheme scheme of major importance. As I said in "herever it is practicable. I cannot give an this Parliament previously, I feel it belongs opinion on the western country, because I have to another generation and that it should be not lived there; I leave that to the hon. mem­ held in tile records of the Sub-Department of bers who come from that district. I honestly Irrigation and Wat·er Supply until the popu­ think that as far as irrigation is concerned, lation warrants its being carried out. In the something big should be done in Queensland. meantime a big job remains to be done in the I need not quote the Murrumbidgee area, more humble schemes-the smaller schemes that because the Minister and other hon. members have for their basis the weiring of our water­ know it. I go so far as to say that it has courses, and the encouragement of settlers, been responsible for the growth of several farmers, and graziers to put down sub-artesian little towns in country that is producing bores; the building of weirs in creeks or cereals that we cannot grow in any other part gullies, or putting down dams or making pro­ of Australia. The big proposal outlined by vision for water generally. That sort O"f work Dr. Bradfield should prove a wonderful asset, is highly useful. There is immense scope for and even if it took 50 years to complete, it it. Anyone acquainted with the middle would be a wonderful thing. There are many western and far western country must realise obstacles a scheme of irrigation has to con­ that its outstanding requirement is water tend with, such as evaporation. and more water. The carrying capacity of that country can be greatly increased R-ight along the coastal belt where the rain­ by the provision of water. Country fall is very irregular there are four or five that to-day is mainly carrying marsupials months when very little rain falls, and it would could carry sheep and cattle if sufficient be wise to exploit these small areas, wherever water was supplied for their needs. We possible, with small irrigation schemes-per­ have vast belts of scrub country where water haps smaller than those the hon. member for is found only at long intervals. In good West Moreton has spoken about in the Lockyer seasons the water that collect's in melon holes area. Along the Queensland coast numbers of and the gullies enables the stock to live whilst ·rivers empty into the sea. It may not be the season is go6d but immediately the water necessary to exploit those rivers, but many of dries up and whatever feed is left is scattered their tributaries are well worth investigating by the wind or eaten by marsupials the sto·ck for the purpose of increasing production. are compelled to fall back on pastures where During the four or five months when the dry there is permanent water. S'o there is a conditions prevail in the coastal belt we pro· great scope in that direction, too. duce virtually nothing; we are just living on Another scheme I believe the Minister and the land and ·resorting to the use of whatever his Government are interested in, and one storage crop we may have. If what I visualise that will be of immense value to the State could be done by the municipality, the Govern· and open up manifold possibilities, is the con· ment, the private individual, or a group of struction of a dam on the Dumaresq River. selectors eo-operating in an area to establish That would have the effect of providing a a weir system or any other to create a body vast storage of water for the Dumaresq of water sufficient to work the area, much Valley. I understand some progress has good would result. It is surprising what can been made between the Governments of be done if we are determined and work hard. New Sout;h Wales and Queensland in I cannot do better than refer to the irriga· this respect. I happen to know that part tion carried out by the Boers many years ago of the country very well. If that great scheme along the top of the Pretoria River, above could be undertaken in the post-war era it Pretoria. The water gravitated round the would not only give employment for a consid­ kopje-no doubt they had the assistance of an erable time, but lay down an irrigation scheme able surveyor-and the grading was such that that would be the means of aett.ling a big the stream was slow-running and never body of people in a fertile district. It has destroyed the banks; but wherever the banks many advantages and would command success, were soft they were restoned, and so the water as it lies between two great markets, namely, went right down the valley from Pretoria. New South Wales and Queensland. The result was that one could see miles and miles of farms along that area gi:,owing crops I am hopeful that money will be found in all the year round, irrespective of the rain­ the post-war period to enable us to proceed fall. That is what we want. I suggest to the with that big and highly important scheme. Minister that he look into this phase of the Generally speaking, I am glad to see the question as far as assisting individuals is con­ increased interest manifested in the problem cerned. I suggest that wherever the farming of water conservation, and to note that the community have an idea that something could Minister is alive to the possibilities, and that be done by them individually or co-operatively, he has reeommended the expenditure of large an engineer be sent out free of charge to sums of money, and that his personal enthusi­ investigate their proposal. Our object is to asm stands behind it. I wish him success. get more production, and I want to ensure Irrespective of our political points of view, we that the farmers living in an area where they must all unite on the one basis-the progress think there is suffieient water to irrigate their end development of our country. farms should be examined by an expert, who, Supply. [7 OcTOBER.] Supply. 765 being an officer of the department, would give investigations on a number of the coastal an honest opinion as to its possibilities. rivers in proximity to the cities. The records could be kept in the depart­ At 3.55 p.m., ment to be used as a guide not only for that Mr. DECKER (Sandgate) relieved the district but for others by comparison. I have Chairman in the chair. been speaking to some of the practical men in the party and we are firmly of the opinion Mr. MULLER: One of the schemes I have that some good would come out of such a in mind-and I am sure it is worth careful scheme. I know exactly what the Minister is consideration-is on the Logan River, about laughing at, but I look upon the hon. member an hour's run from Brisbane. The water is for Stanley, who originated the idea, as a par­ of good quality and the soil is good. I do ticularly good practical man and the scheme not know much of the work that has been would prove of great benefit to the State. I done, but engineers were working in the should like the Minister to go into that locality for some time. Also, in that district matter. Officers from other departments, such is the Albert River, with a supply of very as that of the Department of Agriculture and good water, and the areas adjacent to these Stock, go out and report on everything two rivers will grow virtually anything. An appertaining to farm life free of charge, so additional advantage is that the district is why should not the same policy be adopted close to Brisbane. Schemes of this kind need in this sub-department of the Department of not be costly and would prove successful. I Public Lan

Kyogle railway and landed in Sydney within ing waste of water at. the present . time. about 18 hours. There are ever so many Districts that have a ramfall of 35 mches advantages in establishing irrigation there. receive probably 20 inches of it in one or two I do not know what the report says about these months and the rest of the time they are schemes, but I hope the Minister will make thirsting for a drink. During that one or very close investigation of the possibilities two months of excessive downfall the whole of this one. I know no better water than that of the water runs away to the sea. Some­ flowing in these two rivers. It is pure and thing will have to be done about it and ther~ fresh, and there is plenty of it. Millions is no greater opportunity in the history of upon millions of gallons of that water run the State than that which exists to-day. In into the sea every year, and it must be the post-war period we can carry out this clear to every sensible person that it is not work and so provide an opportunity for the sound business to allow that to continue. men who are demobilised to engage in a Right along the Great Dividing Range we really developm·ental work. Any money t?at find a number of rivers running in the direc­ is spent in this direction will create a lastmg tion of this city. The farthest point in the asset to the State. watershed of most of them would not be more than 100 miles away. Brisbane has a natural Mr. O'SREA (Warrego) (4.6 p.m.): I asset that we do not always appreciate, and have listened to the debate on water con­ I believe that if the people of Brisbane, servation with very great interest. The Ipswich, and the other towns adjacent to schemes that have been mentioned are cer­ these streams were conversant with the possi­ tainly commendable but I cannot regard bilities of these streams there would be such them seriously as post-war projects. Any an agitation by the people that no Govern­ schemes that are adopted for post-war recon­ ment would be able to resist the pressure that struction must be able to serve a very much would be brought to bear on them with a view larger area of country than those that will to bringing these schemes to fruition. No be served by the small schemes that have been longer would there be the danger of food discussed. One project could be carried out shortages that we experience so often. It is in the Carnarvon ranges to impound many undoubtedly a reflection on this Government, more millions of gallons of water than the and for that matter on this Parliament-we schemes that have been described by other all must accept the responsibility-that at hon. members. I know that the Co-ordinator­ this very moment we have not enough potatoes General of Public Works, Mr. J. R. Kemp, to feed our people. That is a terrible state has commented favourably on it. Any scheme of affairs and we frequently crawl out of it for post-war recon.struct_ion must be eon~ by saying, ' 'We will ration them.'' We are sidered from the v1ewpomt of the area of rationing m~at to-day. We should not have country that it will be instrumental in opening to ration meat or vegetables such as potatoes up. I do not think we should be very much and other things that can be planted and concerned about schemes for post-war recon­ harvested in less than six months if we only struction that are to be carried out in areas have the water. If we had water we could at present closely settled. Although the even supplement meat supplies by feeding the Hume weir was constructed at a cost of stock that 'might be carried on this area. £7 000 000, it can be followed right down th~ Murray river into South Australia and When I was discussing irrigation on the with the exception of Renmark, Mildura, and vote for the Chief Office, someone interjected Merbeen no irrigation is being carried on. that it was the responsibility of the people Curlwaa and Coomealla have gone out of to carry out irrigation. That is not entirely existence. The water from the Murray River so. We have to remember that any anomaly has been diverted into the Edward and W aa­ that arises or any mistake that is made means kool Rivers a;nd into Lake Beennenee and no added cost to the consumer, who is then the irrigation has been carried on. Although the loser, and I am convinced that the increased water has been carried down into that part price that we have had to pay in the city of of the country it is still almost as barren as Brisbane for the foodstuffs we use would it was before the weir was constructed. have established a number of these irrigation schemes. I hope the Government in this State are not going to follow the example of the people I wish the Minister further success with in the South. Pretty stringent regula!io~s these schemes if he is going to recomm'end should be introduced to compel people w1thm 'a number of small ones to begin with. How­ easy distance of or ready access to the means ever, if there are to be a number of schemes of irrigation to go in for irrigation. along the Lockyer Creek there should also About the only service the Murray River be such schemes along Warril Creek and Reynolds Creek. is giving at the present time is to supply water to the few irrigation areas I have The Secretary for Public Lands: They alluded to. It has certainly converted such are listed, too. streams as the Rufus River, Frenchman's Creek, Annabranch Creek, and Lake Victoria Mr. 1\'fULLER: Good. I suggest that there into permanent watercourses. Nevertheless, should be schemes in the Logan and Albert no irrigation is being carried on there. It rivers because they are of equal importance. would be foolish for us to follow along those If that is done, as time goes on we shall be lines after the example that has been given able to go a great deal further. We can us in other States. I seriously urge that any have the small weirs as a beginning and practicable scheme that would impound suffi­ later on bigger schemes can be developed. As cient water to open up an area of country that I pointed out the other day, there is a shock- at the present time is absolutely undeveloped Supply. [7 OcTOBER.] Supply. 767 should be considered before parochial it might be quite another thing; but I cannot schemes. It is national schemes we want to see that the State should enter into such a consider first. If we have one such scheme commitment when such a small area of coun­ we should proceed with it; if we have more try would benefit by it. Speaking of the possi­ than one, then we should proceed with them bility of irrigation in the western country, we as soon as possible. It is no use talking find the very same thing that the people of about post-war reconstruction unless we have the lower regions of the Murray River and land available for people to settle on. It will along the Edward and Waakool Rivers have be difficult to settle people in the electorate experienced. They found it was unprofitable. of the hon. member for West Moreton; we It is easy to talk about irrigation, particularly shall not find very much scope for settlement when a person knows very little about it. We there. We have, on the other hand, great know that on the Griffith irrigation area alone areas of country undeveloped, and that is the thousands of tons of gypsum are used every country that should receive first considera­ year to keep Griffith and Leeton going. tion, as it will encourage population and Gypsum is the lightest thing it is possible to bring into existence new production. find, I believe, and it is found in only two I am sorry I did not get an opportunity places in New South Wales-on Manfred sta­ to speak on the vote for the Sub-Department tion and about 12 miles out of Wentworth, between W entworth and Mildura. I remind of ~"orestry. 0 I think that forestry and irri­ gatiOn are related. We have an example of hon. members that irrigation is not a matter what afforestation has done in one of the of allowing the water to ftow over the country Southern States for the city of Ballarat. I or to run along in drains over an area and do not know whether all hon. members know expect it to go on working indefinitely with­ this, but Ballarat is the only city in Aus­ out complications. Irrigation is a thing that tralia possessing a free supply of water for can be carried on only when the conditions its people and this has been achieved by are favourable. Possibly, in the western coun­ afforestation. The hon. member for Albert try, where there is heavy black soil, you will spoke of the diminishing supplies of hoop find the same trouble that they experienced in pine, but I believe that so far as box timber Leeton and Griffith, particularly at Griffith. is concerned the Ballarat district will be a No-one is more concerned than I about irriga­ very serious competitor of Queensland-if we tion of areas in this State that will create new have supplies in the future. The timber settlement, because I believe that is the only milled in the Ballarat area has paid off the way in which we shall encourage the people cost of water conservation and is returning to go into the country-by making conditions a dividend to the city council. As a result, attractive enough for them. If we can under­ its people are getting free water. take one or two big schemes for a start, I believe it is more important that we should '!" e have areas in Queensland particularly do so than fiddle about with little tiadly­ smtable for re-afforestation. I have in mind winking schemes that we have heard a good for instance, the area surrounding the Cooby deal about. The area that would be irrigated Creek dam, recently constructed. The climate from a well, putting it at the highest possible i~ particularly suited for growing pine acreage, would be about 4 or 5 acres. timber. Anyone who has visited Toowoomba and s~en the pine trees that have grown Mr. Dart: What would you grow? there m the last 40 or 50 years has evidence Qf th.at fact. The hon. member for Wynnum Mr. O'SHEA: Possibly a few turnip·s mentioned Stanthorpe. Stanthorpe too is that the hon. member is always talking about particularly suited for growing pin~ tim'ber. growing, and perhaps you could irrigate a few That is a subject local authorities should con­ potatoes, but when you get on to porous coun­ sider in order to stimulate the people's try you must take into consi~eration the interest in forestry. At Passchendaele there amount of water that you are gomg to pump. is a very fine forest which has been developed If you are pumping at the rate of 300 gallons by the department for a number of years. an hour, it is only a pretty substantial well Much of the timber at Passchendaele is now that will stand up to it . .approaching the milling stage. Mr. Macdonald: What about the spear­ This subject siiould not be considered from point system~ the angle of timber production alone. There Mr. O'SHEA: I do not know anything is also the matter of paper pulp. We should about it. not be afraid to encourage the establishment of paper mills in Queensland. Mr. Macdonald: On the Abyssinian wells. We find what the little State of Tasmania j)fr. J. F. Barnes: He knows only one has been able to do. The matters that are part of the well. now being put forward by the Minister cer­ Jl'Ir. O'SHEA: Unfortunately for the hon. tainly are a step towards the improvement of member for Bundaberg, I know a great deal the State and therefore in the right direction. more of my own country than he does. I have no desire to speak ill of the dead­ j)lr. J. F. Barnes: If you know as much I regret very much that Dr. Bradfield passed in one year's time as you think you know you away-but I do say that a great deal more will be a smart man. expert advice must be obtained on his scheme before "\ve pledge the State to ~he heavy lUr. O'SHEA: I am just as smart as expenditure involved in carrying it out. If and know very much more than the hon. we undertook it to supply permanent water in member; but I am more concerned with prac­ our creeks and rivers in the western country tical schemes than beating the air and talking 768 Supply [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. a lot of nonsense. I am concerned only with different light from that in which we looked schemes that will be of some benefit to the at it a few years ago. It is our job to do those State-the State, of course, of my adoption, things that will mean the saving of the but the State that I believe is the greatest in country from an aggressor that we know will the Commonwealth. not have been entirely exterminated at the end of this war. ~Ir. Dart: Do you believe in building weirs? We have to do those things that will secure us against a danger similar to that Mr. O'SHEA: Certainly I believe in which has confronted us during the last two building weirs; I believe in building locks, or three years, but before we can hope to too, but I favour locks more than weirs. I have that serurity we must have the popu­ do not know that the hon. member under­ lation. stands what I am talking about when I speak In dealing with irrigation we are confronted of constructing locks. I know very well that with a big problem and it must be tackled there are many dams-they might be more with courage and determination. We ~ust properly described as dams-that could be con­ visualise embarking upon the largest poss1ble structed in the Cooper's Creek, for instance, schemes. Of course, I do not say that we I suggest that the Minister give some con­ can undertake schemes of the size of those sideration to the construction of dams there of other countries. The hydro-electric scheme in order to create a wider spread of flood on the Dneiper River in Russia cost waters over a greater area. That is about £80 000,000, and was installed mainly for the only method by which one could work the the'purpose of obtaining cheap electricity, not Cooper's Creek country-using the flood for irrigation. We cannot have schemes of waters as they come down. such magnitude here although some people advocate them. In any case, we should do :ilir. Maber: Do they not irrigate that nothing in the way of irrigation without :first country naturally~ making sure of our ground. :ilir. O'SHEA: They irrigate a certain I pay a tribute to the late Dr. Bradfield, amount of the country naturally, but we who was a big Australian, a man with a big could force the water over a greater area than outlook. He was able to see into the future. is flooded at the present time. He probably saw what was going to happen to this country before many people did. We Mr• .ilfacdonald: You have done that at Spring:field. did not realise that these things would happen until they actually took place, until the Mr. O'SHEA: Yes, and it has been done Japanese were almost at our door. Dr. Brad­ at other places. That is one method that field realised the necessity for populating the might increase the carrying capacity of the country, but he also realised that before you Cooper country. can do that you must provide the means by which they can establish themselves and Mr. Macdonald: The Cooper is very good develop industries. I do not say that we as it is. should proceed with a scheme such as the one he has proposed without thoroughly Mr. O'SHEA: I realise that. I suppose investigating it. It is quite possible that the Cooper's Creek country is one of our most we have not men in this country capable of important areas for cattle-raising or cattle­ making the necessary investigations into the breeding. The best cattle in Queensland varied aspects and implications of such a come from the Cooper's Creek. If it is prac­ tremendous undertaking. It should be our tical to lock or weir or dam a river at any obligation to make available the means time, it is criminal waste to allow the water whereby Dr. Brad:field 's proposal-that is, the to flow away to the sea. In a State such as due undertaking of a hydro-electric and irri­ this, which cries out for development, every gation scheme-can be investigated. opportunity should be taken to conserve the No other State possesses the possibilities water and that is done in large rivers by that Queensland has. It is known that we putting in locks. We cannot satisfy ourselves have large undeveloped natural resources here, that we are doing something big so long as and, whilst I am not parochial, the richest we are merely irrigating a few lettuce plots part of the State is North Queensland, but I or an acre or two of lucerne. I contend that admit that the greatest part is the centre wherever there is a big scheme it should take and that is the part that will be the nreans of precedence over any of these small schemes· attracting the greatest population in time to but, in any case, let us get on with the job. ' come-I do say that North Queensland is the part that most readily lends itself to immedi­ lUr. THEODORE (Herbert) ( 4.25 p.m.) : ate development. In investigating any irriga­ The subject of irrigation is so important that tion scheme we must consider both electricity I should not like the opportunity to pass with­ and irrigation. For instance, we should out having something to say about it. The investigate the possibilities of such places as future of Queensland will be of tremendous Blair A thol. importance to the nation. Irrigation and other development must concern every hon. At 4.33 p.m., member in the Committee-and, in fact, every The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. person in the State. I think that everybody to-day realises that there is an entirely dif­ Mr. THEODORE: We know that certain ferent outlook from that of :five or six years industries can be established in this State, ago. The position has completely changed but they cannot be established without cheap and we have to view the future in an entirely electric power. If we could irrigate some Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 769!>

of our fertile areas we could thereby increase but it was also designed to prevent the West the population, who in turn would carry out from developing into a desert. Dr. Bradfield 's­ further development and thereby establish idea was that the additional water that would a splendid home market. That would encour­ be diverted to the interior would cause the age further industries. However, as I have production of an increased quantity of v~ge­ said, certain industries cannot be established tation which in turn would be responsible without cheap electric power, which reminds for the attraction of more clouds and thus me that the Blair Athol colliery could pro­ more rain. Perhaps that is more important duce possibly the cheapest electric power in than irrigation itself. Dr. Bradfield was the State. We should have that project undoubtedly an eminent m~:m of A_nstralia. investigated by competent men so that He put his scheme forward m all senousne~s, recommendations may be made to the Govern­ and it is endorsed by every hon. member 111 ment, who, in their turn, would submit them this Committee with the exception of the hon. to the Commonwealth Government for inclu­ member for \V arrego. sion in the post-war reconstruction pro­ 'l'he Murrumbidgee and Murray Rivers gramme. vVe should be failing in our duty, schemes mentioned by the hon. member for almost to the extent of criminal negligence, \Varrcgo were constructed by u:r_10r_tho~ox if we did not make arrangements as soon as iinance- and it is obvious that ungatwn poosihle to utilise all our natural resources, sd1emes of the future 'vill not be fin::Jnr_ed by especially when we know full well that our ~rthodox finance methods. If that is so, it safety depends upon the building up of a does not matter whether Dr. Bradfield 's large population in This country. These are scheme will irrigate 2,000,000 or _10,000,?0(} the matters that should concern us, and these acres. The fact remains that if gwen effect are the things that would follow the develop­ to it will re-establish not only our WesteriL ment of any major project. Much more can areas but also our Northern areas as well. ~t he done in the field of mining if only more is vital that we should have settlement 1_n· investigation and greater research are carried ~orth Queensland to enable us to hold this out. It is simply a matter of discharging country. our natural duty to our country. Therefore, The third point in Dr. Bradfield 's schem~ we must give early and close attention to is the hvdro-electric undertaking that could these great undertakings that will mean be established in conjunction with it. That advancement for the State. in itself is a necessity. The hon. member I congra tulate the Minister on the progress who has just resumed his seat mentioned that that he has made in this sub-department. I the Blair Athol coal deposits were quite. c_ap­ know that it receiYes his close attention, and ablc of giying this country cheap electnc1ty. what is more, it will receive more attention That is by virtue of the low cost of produc111g from him in the future. A number of com­ that coal, but it would be much. cheap~r to mittees have been @et up to investigate the establish a hydro-electric scheme 111 conJunc­ proposals from various districts, and I am tion with Dr. Bradfield 's in-igation scheme. satisfied that every effort must be made to When considering the possibilities of these see that these schemes will lead to greater schemes we must recollect that the Kalgoorlie advancement fol' Queensland. goldfield was supplied with water brou~ht from 400 miles away, from JUSt outside Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (4.36 p.m.): I do not propose to say much more Perth. on the subject of irrigation. However, the Mr. Devries: They pumped it. hon. member for Warrego made a statement 1\Ir. J. F. BARNES: That is so. The water to-day that was similar to a statement that was bTought to Kalgoorlie not by a system he made the other night. It really annoyed of gravitation but by a series of pu_mps estab­ me. He gave his experience on the various lished at distances of 40 or 50 miles. That irrigation jobs in the South. He went on to water was brought that distance because t~e say that some of the schemes on the Lower gold that was to be won and w~s won m Mm-ray River were not a success and he Kalgoorlie was able to pay for It. _When­ added that he regretted that Dr. Bradfield Eno-ineer Fon·est suggested the scheme It was was dead, because he did not wish to speak ill ridiculed as impossible. It was said in those of anyone. It ill becomes the hon. member dark days to be impossible to supply water for Warrego to speak ill of Dr. Bradfield, to a centre 400 or 500 miles distant. One for the plain and simple reason that hon. member referred to the construction of· Dr. Bradfield was not only a leading engineer a dam in Russia that cost £80,000,000. If in Australia, but perhaps one of the leading Russia can construct an £80,000,000 scheme engineers of the world. His scheme, generally why cannot we build a £40,000,000 one!' known as Dr. Bradfield 's scheme, for the Further if water can be carried from Perth, impounding of water in the North so that it a dista~ce of 400 miles, to Kalgoorlie, what might be diverted to the interior, was esti­ is there to prevent its being diverted from mated to cost £30,000,000, or perhaps our far northern coast into the western areas w· £40,000,000. That is only equivalent to the cost of a couple of battleships. The hon. member for Warrego was con­ cerned with the financial burden on the land' 1\Ir. Moorhouse: One battleship. of the cost of the scheme. If the land cost Mr. J. F. BARNES: The hon. member £1 an acre and it cost another £15 an acre· for Windsor says one battleship. The fact to provide it with water by means of conser­ remains that his scheme was more than a vation its cost would be £16 an acre. The· dual scheme. Not only was it intended to applic~tion of irrigation might enhance its' irrigate certain parts of Western Queensland, value to £50 an acre. 'rhat being so, there 1943-2 B "170 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. would be a credit balance of £35 in favour the railway and when one comes to the Mil­ -of irrigation. That would be by orthodox dura area it is like coming out of a desert finance, but, as I have said, it is quite obvious into paradise, although it is virtually the that these schemes will not be financed by same class of country all over the Mallee ·orthodox finance. We should thank God that country. ·when that land was taken over by there has been a Dr. Bradfield in Australia, Chaffey Brothers, its carrying capacity was because it will be through his scheme that estimated at a sheep to 30 acres; yet now 'Queensland will come into her own by the millions of pounds' worth of produce is taken ·Bsta blishment of something that is so neces · off it every year in the interests of the people sary in this State, and bring about conditions of Victoria, and in the long run of Australia. that are vital for the welfare of Australia. That is one of the many schemes that have been carried out in the Southern States. I Mr. EDWARDS (Nanango) (4.43 p.m.): have mentioned them here on several occasions After listening to the speeches of hon. and I will not take up the time of the Com­ members I am more than satisfied that thev mittee in referring to them again. I say are very sincere in their desire to promote without hesitation I feel sure the Government schemes for the impounding of water. I have are going to give some attention to this :advocated such schemes for many years, but matter, because the people are so earnest there is one thing that we should do, am! about it-not only hon. members in this :that is to hold our horses until we get more Chamber but outside it-because they realise information about them. A person wants to we shall never carry the population we should nave first-hand knowledge of irrigation to carry in the interests of the safety of this know of its possibilities and advantages. He country unless we preserve the waters of this then has an idea of what it really means to State. :a country. I thoroughly believe that the water in some of our great western streams Vote (Irrigation and Water Supply) ·can be impounded. Although many of these agreed to. streams are shallow they could be weirerl to irrigate big areas. I am not suggesting that MISCELLANEOUS. tens of thousands of acres should be irri · gated, for that would be the area of one TI1e SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS holding, but an area of 20 acres could be (Hon. E . .J. Walsh, Mirani) (4.49 p.m.): I ·lrrigated and mean something very consider· move- able to the district. '' That £850 be granted for 'Miscel­ What has been done in other countries laneous.' '' would simply astound hon. members if the•· The amount is the same as that voted last flaw it, and they would realise what it means year. in the way of closer settlement, increased pro­ Vote agreed to. -duction, and better living conditions. We '!have never seen it on that scale. The little DEPARTMENT OF .JUSTICE. bit of spraying we have done has its advan­ CHIEF OFFICE. tage and gives security to people on small ''holdings where it is established, but when it The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. D. A. -comes to carrying out a scheme that will be Gledson, Ipswich) (4.50 p.m.): I move- ·of great advantage to the population as a " That £26,454 be granted for 'Depart· ·whole it is another matter altogether. No ment of .Justice-Chief Office.' '' matter which way we look at it, it will be "impossible for the Government to carry many The sum asked for this year is a decrease of -of these big schemes to a successful issue. £1,945 on last year's appropriation and com­ 'Theodore was to be a wonderful thing when prises a decrease in salaries of £903 and a ·:it was started. decrease in contingencies of £1,042. Although the number of officers provided for this year A Government Member: It will be, too. is only one clerk fewer in the Solicitor· General's Office, the reduction in salaries by Mr. EDWARDS: I hope so; I never £903 on the sum budgeted for last year is thought so, when I :first saw it, and I came due to the calling-up or the enlistment for from a place where they have carried out war service of all eligible officers between 18 irrigation. Take an area like the Downs­ and 35 years of age and their replacement :and I do not say this with any disrespect for by junior and probationary clerks. The the Downs-in a good season it is wonderful difference in the salaries payable for the cur· ·country but in a dry season the irrigation rent year is reflected in the amount asked water would run down the :first cracks it came under that heading. Grade and automatic to, owing to the great depth of the soil. If increases to the salaries of officers are pro· you get 40 to 70 ft. of soil that has dried vided in accordance with the award of the ·out, irrigation is not going to be of much Industrial Court for those officers whose ser­ value. It is essential to have a shallow sub­ vices have been satisfactory. ·soil to make a real success of irrigation; if you have not, it is necessary to have a tre­ Contingencies show a decrease of £1,042. It mendous amount of water, and then the deep i~ estimated that the actual expenditure last ·soils would become too boggy to work. All year is not likely to be spent during this the places where irrigation has been successful year, and savings are expected in the three that I know of-and there may be others sEctions of the c-ontingencies vote. A gratuity that I know nothing about-have a clay sub­ of £253 is being paid to the widow of the late i!Oil under a shallow soil, and that is the Mr. Albert Patrick, who was a well-known :reason of their success. One can travel along officer in the Department of .Justice for very Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 77I, many years as chief messenger and records people per month, who otherwise would be· clerk. He was there for as long as I can gravely inconvenienced. remember. I think he was there at the time ''On the past practice here, a substantial Sir James Blair, former Chief Justice of proportion of rooms in these premises have Queensland, was Attorney-General. That is a been occupied continually by people w'ho long time ago. The deceased gentleman was are permanent residents of the city, and virtually in harness at the time of his death. who should be able to find accommodation I am sure that every hon. member-! particu­ in any of the many residential sections of farly do-desires to pay tribute to the loyal the outskirts of the city and suburbs. and efficient service of Albert Patrick during his long term of service in the department-a "You will appreciate this position and period of 36 years. That is a long time to its seriousness, and I am now asking you to spend in one department, and all the members please vacate your room within the next of the staff regretted his passing. week if possible, or certainly within four­ teen days. I take this opportunity of paying a tribute "In this regard I \Yish you to appreciate to the officers of the department. They, in that there is nothing personal, and it is" common with other officers in the public ser­ simply with the object of meeting tl1e urgent vice, have been canying on under very adverse travellers' demands at the present time and. cc.nditions. 'l'his is a rather important vote the persistent requests of the responsible of an important department, the work of Government officers. which has to be carried on with senior officers and junior clerks and girl typists, who have ''Yours faithfully, come in to replace virtually the whole of the "C. J. Watts." senior staff. That shows the difficulty we 'have in carrying on. :Most of the young men, Under the law the Licensing Commission when they reached the enlistment age, enlisted, could not make that request of the particular­ and we are losing staff in this way even up party concerned. He is obviously using the to the present. Licensing Commission's name-I am sure the Commission 11ever advised him to do that Thir. J. :F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (4.54 because it is contrary to the law-to push p.m.) : I regret that I addressed my question permanent boarders out of that hotel because this morning to the wrong Minister. I \Vas in the past, that hotel being out of the city, so used to the Secretary for Health and Home it has been forced to accommodate perman­ Affairs handling the office I spoke of that I ent residents because it has a huge number" made a mistake. But I should like to have of rooms. Now, because there is a certain an answer. I was prompted to ask the ques­ demand for accommodation at terrific prices, tion by reason of a circular letter sent to the the new licensee wants to push the boarders boarders at that hotel, York House, South Bris­ out and get the higher rentals offering for bane, and for the information of the Commit­ accommodation to-day. This is an injustice· tee I will read it. I might mention that not to the civilian population who are living in for one second do I believe that the Licensing that hotel. These things should be stopped, Commission sent that letter to this hotel­ and if this man has had no order from the keeper, but he is only new in the hotel and I Licensing Commission to do this, he should think is prepared to take advantage of the be prosecuted for his action because there times and is blaming the Licensing Commis­ is no denying the fact that it is a very sion for something he wants to do to suit serious offence. himself. The letter is headed- I realise that people running hotels to-day have a very awkward job to do inasmuch " York House, as m'an-power is limited. ''Melbourne street, The Secretary for Public Lands: How ''South Brisbane, 1 October, 1.943.'' long was the boarder staying with him~ and is addressed to ''Dear So-and-So,'' and Mr. BARNES: He is a new hotelkeeper,. reads- but the person has been" staying at the hotel " This is to advise you formally that York for years. House will in future be run solely for the Mr. Moorehouse: It is a recognised: travelling public. That was its original boarding house. purpose, and we have been advised by the Licensing Commission that every facility The Secretary for Public Lands: It is: must be made available for oosual travel­ not a hotel~ lers, a big percentage of whom at the present time are unable to obtain accom­ JU.r. J. F. BARNES: It is a hotel. mod.atJon in the city. Mr. ~Ioorhouse: There is no bar. "During the past week we have had the repeated experience here of turning away ~Ir. J. F. BARNES: There is a bar. people with their travelling bags whom we The Secretary for Public Lands: What have been m1able to accommodate, and to is the name of the hotel~ whom we were unable to suggest anywhere in the city where they could spend the 1\Ir. J. F. BARNES: York House, South: night. Brisbane. "We feel that in catering for travellers The Secretary for Public Lands: That we will be able to render service to many is not a hotel. 772 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

)Ir. J. F. BARNES: I thought it was. If any further by virtue of committing me for that is so then the Licensing Commission contempt of court. had nothing to do with it. Mr. Turner: He did not want to satisfy The Attorney-General: No. your ego. Mr. J. F. BARNES: Then I will skip it, lUr. J. F. BARNES: Whether I had ego as it is out uf order ou this vote. As I was or not should have had no bearing on justice. saying the position of hotels to-day is acute I was concerned about the administration of because there is no man-power to run them. justice. On several occasions during the hear­ It is so limited that the civilian population ing I disregarded the court, completely dis­ is finding it very difficult to get accommoda­ regarded it, and completely disregarded Mr. tion. Not only are they finding it J_,eahy's order to me. I went to that court to difficult to get accommodation, but people give my evidence and not the evidence they who have been living in hotels have other wanted me to give, and in giving my evidence problems. For instance, one hotel used to I hmt people. I was in the court at least charge 35s. a week to permanent boarders. four times to tell my story. Mr. Gibbs, who It ceased to give them full accommodation said that he saw Marjorie Norval in London, and gave them bed and breakfast only, for was in court all the afternoon and all the which it charged two guineas a week. I morning. He told the court that he saw her realise rhal prices have gone up and that to walking down Trafalgar Square and that took get labour to-day they have to pay more, him all the aftemoon and all the morning. and naturally I should not object to the hotel­ The gentleman who drove her to the station keeper's charging from 35s. to £2 5s. to was in and out of the court in no time; yet compensate for the increased prices and the evidence submitted by that gentleman :higher wages for full board, but the unfor­ was that he drove her to the Bundaberg mail tunate position is that there are certain at 7 o'clock at night and also drove her to people who, because they have a lot of money, the No. 1 platform. The evidence also are able to pay big prices for a bed, with reveals that the said gentleman had been a the result that in Queensland to-day plenty commercial traveller for years, that the Bunda­ .of acommodation is going begging because it berg train always went at 9 o'clock and alway~ is tied up, secured by the military authorities. from No. 4 platform. The deceased or the Before this war, there were no such things missing person had been secretary to Fo;ljan as plush beds, but by virtue of the Ameri­ Smith when he was Leader of the Opposition ,eans' bigger pay, they have all the main in 1929-32 and she would know what times hotels tied up, and lots uf beds are empty the trains ran because that would be part of on many nights while the civilian population her duty. Miss Norval would also know the are going begging for accommodation. These times of the trains, because she was secretary things should be investigated. WB must cater to the ex-Premier's wife. Yet both of them for the civilians; they are just as much a made the same mistake-going at 7 o'clock part of the war effort as the soldiers. and not 9 o'clock and going to the No. 1 plat­ The man-power position with regard to form instead of No. 4. That was the evi­ hotels is another serious thing that must be dence before the court. examined inasmuch as som·e of the hotel­ Was this man who drove her to the station keepers simply cannot carry on or give cross-examined or re-examined~ No, he was :accommodation because they have nobody to not. He was allowed to pass through the do the work. They should get protection court. Yet there was a gap a mile wide. But from man-power because the travelling public I and Mr. Gibbs, well, he was in court all have to be accommodated. one afternoon and all next morning, more or Seeing that this vote is a very wide one, less. When the witness Mrs. MacPherson, I shall get on to a pet aversion of mine-the sister of Marjorie Norval, gave evidence in N orval case. the court, the Crown Prosecutor put the words in her mouth and would not allow her to Mr. Theodore: You ought to let it rest. speak. In other words, he directed from Mrs. MacPherson 's mouth what he wanted to Mr. J. F. BARNES: In the hon. mem­ receive. Mrs. MacPherson, as I said, gave ber's opinion. different evidence from what she had given Mr. Moo re: That is the case that will four years previously. The Crown said they get you out of Parliament. would recall her. Did they call her back~ No. They closed the case up, "Bang! " like Mr. J. F. BARNES: In the hon. mem­ that. It got too hot. They had to close the ber's opinion. Whilst I was giving evidence, case up. Mrs. Weller, the licensee of the the coroner, Mr. Leahy, refused to allow me Albert Hotel, gave evidence, or answered the to give permissible evidence after allowing Crown Prosecutor, or gave replies to questions "others to give the same evidence, and I told directed to her by the Crown Prosecutor. Did him that neither he nor anybody else would the Crown Prosecutor ask Mrs. Weller did stop me from giving the evidence. He then the ex-Premier visit Marjorie N orval 's room~ turned round and said to the reporters that No, he did not, but the ex-Premier was a he forbade them to publish it, but I continuBd regular visitor to her particular room at the :and finished my statement. Why should the Albert Hotel. Had Mrs. Weller been allowed district coroner allow m·e to commit contempt to give her evidence she might have given c{)f court and not prosecute me for it' that. If the Crown Prosecutor who was look­ Because it was a filthy case from the start, ing after the interests of the Crown had cross­ :and he did not want to be interested in it examined her as he should have, then it was Supply [7 OcTOBER.] Supply. 773

his duty to ask her if anybody else visited Forests for one week endeavouring to find her room; but he did not do so. prospects at the Brisbane Exhibition. 1 To set the whole case off, the Crown Prose­ found Mr. Gibbs a 100-per-cent. gentleman. cutor received £100 or 100 guineas as a The Secretary for Public Lands: That reward for his services and he was then being \\-as a crook show. paid by the Crown as Crown Prosecutor. The deposition clerk received £5 extra, yet he was Mr. J. F. BARNES: It was not. in receipt of his regular salary, and there was Tlle Secretary for Public Lands: It was no law whereby he could receive anything a crook show. You read Senator Crawford's extra. I do not object to a deposition clerk's speech on Senator Foll and you will see that getting £5 extra-do not misunderstand me­ Gibbs and Senator Foil were mixed up in it. but I do object to the Crown Prosecutor's being paid £100. Kno>ving this, Mr. Leahy ~Ir. J. F. RARNES: As far as I am made application to the department for a £25 concerned that show is still in operation and bonus for himself, because, I suppose, he took Mr. Gibbs, the manager, is still a reputable it that Mr. Carroll, the Commissioner of citizen. He has not been brought before a Police, had directed him how to handle Mr. court of law for dishonesty. Therefore, Gibbs and directed him how to handle Frank Mr. Gibbs is an honest man. The Minister Barnes, m1d he did his work so well that he, cannot say· he is now dishonest. If he found the coroner, Mr. Leahy, expected that Mr. him to be otherwise it would be different. Carroll would recommend a £25 bonus to him. Why should he ask for £25? He was merely The Secretary for Public Lands: You doing his ordinary duties. Tead Senator Crawford's speech. Did he ask for £25 when he dealt with the ilir. J. F. BARNES: Under cross-examina­ case previously in the coroners court? No. tion they tried to get Gibbs to say that he Has he eYer asked for 25 quid for dealing gave me this infonnation, whereas I had not >~·ith anv other coroners court case? No. seen him for some years before. J<'urther­ On this· specific occasion he asked for £25 more, in re-cross-examination of myself the and he was not given it. But the fact remains honourable or dishonourable prosecutor tried he asked for it. Why~ At the direction of to trap me into saying ''London'' by quoting somebody-say, the Commissioner of Police alleged reports of my speeches at Cairns, -who told him how to find and he did as Mackay, and elsewhere. I had said ''Rumour he was told. Therefore he was a faithful has it that she is now in England.'' I never servant, and thought he was entitled to ask mentioned London. When the depositions for £25. That may have been the reason. were read over to me I saw where they Why should he have asked for it~ Because said I had said she was in London. I said, the whole ease was rigged from start to finish. ''I will alter that no>V.'' The Crown Prose­ I could say that the Commissioner of Police cutor said, "You said that." I said, "You did rig it, or at least he rigged a portion of put the words into my mouth and when you it, but if I did so I should be asked to said 'London' I said 'Yes,' but I never npologise. mentioned London in my life.'' Gibbs, who I was speaking in Sydney after the coroners was to give evidence later, said ''London'' court ease to Mr. Gibbs, the man who alleged and the Crown Prosecutor tried to get me to he saw Marjorie Norval in London. say ''London,'' too. It was the Secretary for Public Lands who said to me on that The Secretary for Public Lands: Was occasion, ''You worked for the Queensland he not a bit of a crook~ Forests once.'' I said, ' 'Yes.'' This reminded me of that company for I had Mr. J. F. BARNES: No, he is not a crook forgotten that here was ever such a company. at all; his record is a clean one. On the I only worked a week for it. He was only contrary; Mr. Gibbs is a: thorough gentleman. sounding me out on my relationship with As one detective told me, without mentioning Gibbs because he evidently knew of Gibbs 's his name, ''I heard every bit of evidence evidence. That happened in the billiard-room that Gibbs gave and I have no illusions that of this House. The Minister was quite sure Gibbs thought he saw her in London, but he that I had worked for Queensland Forests, must have mistaken her for somebody else.'' and he reminded me of the fact. The In other words, he believed every word Gibbs Minister will admit that. said, but he believed that he had mistaken the person he saw in London for Marjorie Tlle Secretary for Public Lands: I knew Norval. Gibbs is the manager of a Kingsford you were wrapped up in a crook show like Smith production in Sydney. When I spoke that and I told you so. to Gibbs in Sydney he said, ''Frank, I am Mr. J. F. BARNES: You told me three just as sure that I saw Marjorie Norval in days before the case. I have forgotten London as I am sure that I am speaking to whether it was three or four days before. you now." That is the first time I saw or heard of Mr. Gibbs in seven or eight years. I The Secretary for Public Lands: You had heard of the company he represented never forgot. You sold a lot of those shares three days approximately before I went back to a lot of poor widow women and took them to the court a second time. A certain man down for their money. then came up to me and said, ''I know some­ thing about you." I said, "Don't tell any­ Mr. J. ]<', BARNES: I never sold one. body or we will all know. '' 'l'hat snmething The Minister was interested enough to put turned out to be that I wocked for the l~ueens­ that question to me to gain the information land l<'orests. I did work for the Queensland to take it back to somebody. His question 774 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. certainly synchronised with later events. That this stage, to clear up some of the matters was three days before the Monday before the that have been raised. The first matter raised second case. If the Minister were genuine by the hon. member for Bundaberg was in he would acknowledge that I had forgotten connection with York House. By way of that there was such a company. interjection the hon. member was told that I will go back to the Mackay by-election it is not a licensed house and the Licensing campaign. The Premier, when moving my Commission had nothing to do with the suspension from the House, said that I had incident. the opportunity on the previous session and llfr. J. F. Barnes: I thought it was a that I had some ulterior motive in bringing licensed house; I admit I was wrong. the Mackay episode up at that time. You, Mr. Brassington, and every hon. member, Tlte ATTORNEY-GENERAL: In regard know that there is only a limited time when to the other case raised by the hon. member one can speak on such subjects-and I will for Bundaberg, I am not here to delve int_o give it in that I am a pretty good ''out-of­ all cases· that is left to the coroner, who IS order" speaker-but the fact remains there fit and c~mpetent to do a good job and >vho was limited time to speak on election matters, did a good job in the inquiry in. connection and during that special session we had there with the missing person of Miss NorvaL was one 25 minutes that I could have spoken The whole complaint raised by the hon. mem­ on it, but I had something more important ber for Bundaberg is that he said that the to speak on at that time. Likewise, during coroner did not give him an opportunity of this session I could have spoken on it on the giving evidence. Address in Reply, but I had something more important to speak on then, and I could have llir. J. F. narnes: I said nothing of the spoken on it in the Budget debate, but I had kind. I said that the coroner did not commit something more important to speak on. On me for contempt of court when I was in con­ this vote I have the right to speak on it. tempt. I gave him every opportunity. That shows that what the Premier said is ridiculous. I was not actuated by any ulterior Tile CHAIRllfAN: Order! motive in bringing it up at that stage. I had no chance any earlier. That particular elec­ The ATTOR~EY-GENERAL: I am quite tion was a disgrace to Queensland. The satisfied the hon. member for Bundaberg does filth that went on up there-the black and not really know what he is saying. I took _it white chalk markings on footpaths and on down as he said it and he said the coroner did shopdoor fronts->va,s all over the Mackay not give him an opportunity of giving per­ business centre. It could not have been put missible evidence. there without the knowledge of the police; Mr. J. }'. Barnes: Of one specific case. it could have been put there by the two police on duty that night. The CHAIRlUAN: Order! .Mr. Riordan: It was suggested you put Tl1e ATTORNEY -GENERAL: There is it there yourself. the whole position. lUr. J. F. BARNES: It does not make Mr. J. F. Barnes: I was referring to twopence difference who put it there; it could one specific case. not have been all over Mackay without the police's knowing it. In other words, did the The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ police put it there or were they a party to ber for Bundaberg has had 25 minutes to itW Did they arrest anybody for doing these make his speech, and the Attorney-General is things, which were against the law~ No, entitled to make his. they did not. The Mackay campaign was nothing else but filthy from start to finish. Mr. J. F. BARNES: I rise to a point of I turned round and put Inspector Osborne on order. The Attorney-General is making out the mat and told the people what a pig he that I said I never had time to give my evi­ was, and the police started a rumour that dence. I made that clear. I was there for they were not going to arrest me because I four days but I never had time to give one might say it was victimisation-first of all, particular part of my evidence, because he they said they could not arrest me because I would not allow me. was privileged, and I denied that in the paper The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. and I said I was not privileged, and then they member does not conduct himself in a more turned round and said that after the election proper way I shall take appropriate steps. they would arrest me, that after the election they would take action. The Mackay episode The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I am point­ has been through the ''Police Journal'' for ing out that every opportunity was given in two or three months and no specific charge was the court to all the witnesses to give all the made against me in Mackay and none has evidence they had bearing on the disappear­ been made since, because every word I said ance of Miss Marjorie Norval. In fact, the about Inspector Osborne and Dan Larkin was court went out of its way to give people the true, but they used all that filthy method to opportunity of bringing forward all the evi­ try to slander me. dence they could, and no ban was placed on (Time expired.) the hon. member for Bundaberg or any other witness to prevent the giving of any evidence The ATTORNEY -GENERAL (Hon. D. A. he or she could that might lead to finding out Gledson, Ipswich) (5.20 p.m.): It is well, at the whereabouts of or what had happened to Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 775 the missing person. That was the idea of the his character or anything else. He has con­ inquiry-to find out what had happened to a ducted his prosecutions with absolute fairness. missing person. The inquiry was not for tJw He is given credit for that. He does not go purpose of allowing somebody to get in some out of his way to deal with a witness or any sort of attack on somebody else-a veiled other person in any but the fairest manner. attack. That was not the object of the He is looked on as being one of the inquiry. The object was to find out, if pos­ fairest of the Crown Prosecutors in Australia sible, the whereabouts of a missing person to-day, or of those who have occupied that and to allow every person who thought he or position in this State. I-Ie has been corn­ she could throw some light on the matter to mended by judges, magistrates, and others; come in and give evidence. but it is left to an hon. member of this Com­ This afternoon we have heard an attack mittee to stand here this afternoon and cast made on the former Premier of Queensland, aspersions on him and make use of the term who is no longer a member of this Parliament. that he is the ''dishonourable crown prosecu­ If he was, the hon. member would not be tor.'' On behalf of this honourable man, and game enough to get up and make the attack an officer of my department, I say that if all he did, because the former Premier would be hon. members in this Committee were as able to protect himself against such attack. honourable as the Crown Prosecutor there There was not a scintilla of evidence in any would be no such statement made as that of the evidence by any witness during the made this afternoon. course of that inquiry that the former Premier Honourable :ill embers: Hear, hear! of Queensland visited Marjorie N orval 's room. There was not the slightest scintilla of evi­ The ATTORNEY -GENERAL: It was my dence of that. The witnesses had every oppor­ duty to refute these charges. We all know tunity of saying who had visited the room, or that once rumours of this sort are started they anything else, and there was not any evidence take wings and move quickly and can never l'rcviously or in that court to that effect. But be caught up with. the hon. member gets up here after that case is concluded and casts aspersions on a man I want to catch up with that statement and whose shoes he is not fit to clean. say that I am prepared to stand behind my officers in all they have done. If any hon. The hon. member also made a statement member of this Committee wants to say against public servants who have not the right anything about them, say it about me, the to come to this Assembly and defend them­ Attorney-General; do not say it about those selves. He stands in this coward's castle and officers who cannot defend themselves. Say makes these attacks. I wonder what Parlia­ it about me and I will defend myself in ment is coming to when members of Parlia­ any possible way that I find the Standing liament can do the like of that: he said that Orders of the House allow me to do. That Mr. Carron, the Commissioner of Police, is what I ask them to do. Say anything directed the coroner as to the conduct of the they like about me. If it is true 1 will stand case. Can hon. members imagine for one up to it. If it is not true I will defend moment a coroner of Mr. Leahy's standing myself, but do not say it about my officers allowing Mr. Carroll or any other person to who have no chance of coming in here and tell him how he should handle an inquiry~ defending themselves. The thing in ridiculous in the extreme. Mr. Leahy is a magistrate of many years' Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (5.28 standing and has conducted coronia] inquiries p.m.): At the outset I should like to commend for many years in Queensland. He has the senior officers of the department and handled all types of witnesses over many others for the way in which it is conducted. years and is able to get the relevant evidence I have often spoken about the way the from witnesses. He is not the type of man telephone is answered in public offices. The who would allow anybody to advise him as to Justice Department is run on the right lines. how he should handle any trial or inquiry that When one rings up they say, "Justice came before him. It is not right for a Department, O'Hagan here." That is what member to get up and cast aspersions on two I like. It is not like some of them who public officers of the State who have given answer, '' 5111 here,'' or something lik~ that, good service and are carrying out their work just as if it were some old pawnshop m the in an honest, straight-forward, and manly Valley. Both.M:r. O'Hagan and Mr. McGregor, way, and it is my duty to see that such things as well as many other officers, stipendiary do not happen. Any person who was present magistrates and others all over the State, at that court knows the incident could not whom I have met, are deserving of the highest happen, because, in the first place, the Com­ praise for the work they do. missioner for Police was not there. The coroner was conducting an inquiry, and how I have often asked, in fact, advised, the would a person presiding on an inquiry or Government to amalgamate the State and trial know what the evidence would be until Federal electoral offices. Surely they will the witness gave it in the box~ The whole listen to my advice sometimes~ I want to thing is ridiculous in the extreme. know why they will not do it. They have never faced up to that question and given Another public servant, the victim of attack the reason. There is something underlying this afternoon, was the Crown Prosecutor, Mr. this that is strange to me. Almost every Sheehy, a man who stands in his profession other State has done it. as high as any other person in the State of Queensland. Mr. Sheehy is a man at whom The Attorney-General: None of them, no-one can point the finger of scorn, at either except Tasmania. 776 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. YEATES: I am not satisfied with to 12 months' imprisonment by Mr. Justice that answer. I know that the Minister is not Philp. This lad is subject to epileptic fits saying it intentionally, but I think he possibly and he broke into a house and store. His has not looked it up. sentence was suspended. He was to serve I come now to prisons. one month in gaol and he was then to enter into a bond. Through the good offices of Mr. Power: You were over there this the Department of Health and Home Affairs afternoon. I had arranged that this unfortunate lad-it is terribly unfortunate that things like this lUr. YEATES: I ,was at Bog go Road should happen-should go to Dunwich. After three times altogether. I was there many the matter had gone through the Department years ago, then about four years ago, but it of Health and Home Affairs I proposed to was just for a short time-good behaviour let place the matter before the Attorney-General me get away inside of two hours. (Laughter.) in the hope that he would be good enough to This very day I was over there again, and place it before the Cabinet or the Governor going over in the tram, when paying my fare, in Council if necessary so that the boy will I said to the very nice little conductress- not have to serve even a month in gaol but Mr. Power: "What are you doing allowed to go to Dunwich, where there is a to-night r'' (Laughter.) special place for people suffering from such trouble. lUr. YEATES: I said, "Where is the That brings me to the point that I have best place to get out for Boggo Hoad gaol~ often heard judges say, ''·what am I do with Which stop 1" She said, "I will see in a this case? What can I do with this lad~'' minute.'' She saw the driver, then came They were refening to youths between the back to me and told me, and she said, ''I ages of 17 and 21. I respectfully but never­ hope you are not going to give yourself up.'' theless strongly suggest that the Government (Laughter.) should erect a special institution-call it a Looking round in the gaol this afternoon half-way house if you like-for these boys I inspected the porridge, hominy they call (and there are many of them) and do not it. There is nothing wrong with the food. send them to gaol. There should be a special It will do me any time. There was a wonder­ place for the reception of-shall I say­ fully big dish of porridge. mental defcctives or backward youths~ I was wondering if Dalby Sanatorium could be l'lfr. Healy: Have they any potatoes, over made aYailable for the purpose~ there? lUr. YEATES: They get vegetables, and The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. good vegetables, too. They get 16 oz. of member would raise that matter on the Esti­ meat- mates for the Department of Health and Home Affairs he would be in order. liir. Clayton: Each? lllr. YEA'I.'ES: I will leave the matter l'I'Ir. YEATES: Yes, each. They are not now and bring it up on other Estimates. I rationed at all. I asked, "Is it mutton you ask the Attorney-General to look into the are getting~" and the reply was, "Oh, no; matter in the meantime and I appeal to the we get beef. We get it wholesale and get Department of Health and Home Affairs to plenty of it.'' So that if any hon. member provide such an institution. We are spending finds himself short of meat and lines up in £1,500,000 a day on war and surely to good­ a queue at the butcher shop only to be ness we can induce the man-power authorities disappointed he will get plenty of meat if to make labour available to build a special he is over there for a week or two. institution. Mr. J'IIaher: A home away from home? Mr. POWER (Baroona) (5.36 p.m.): The Justice Department, a very important depart­ Mr. YEATES: Yes, definitely. I heard ment of State, is one charged with grave a piano playing there-there was every com­ responsibilities. fort. The beds looked admirable. I said to the head man, ''Do you ever not lee the same With the Minister I regret very much that men coming back here W'' He said, ''Oh, the Marjorie Norval case has been raised yes, they turn up here frequently.'' He told again. Her disappearance has been investi­ me that one left on Saturday and was back a gated by a magistrate, and in view of all the couple of days ago-they like it so well. This circumstances it is regrettable that the matter needs just a little inquiry. I am wondering should have been ventilated as many times as whether it is any deterrent at all to those who it has. It must be distressing to the relatives h:tve been there once. I asked how many of the late Marjorie Norval. I also regret prisoners were there and was told a couple of very much that an attack should be made on hundred. I said, ''Is that more or less than such an honourable man as Mr. Leahy, the in normal times~" The reply was, "Yes, City Coroner, who has done excellent work more, because Army prisoners are here, too.'' for Queensland. No hon. member in his sane moments would really suggest that any person The court-martial prisoners are there, too, could by any manner of means influence but we read nothing about that anywhere. Mr. Leahy in any decision that he was to We are keeping them, too. give. The remarks by the hon. member for To-day I went over to the gaol for the Bundaberg were also a reflection upon the special purpose of having a form filled in by Commissioner of Police who, he said, directed a youth 19 years of age who was sentenced Mr. Leahy what he should do. That is a Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 777 rather startling statement by a man elected ness-they have boon in business over a great by the people to look aftCT the interests of number of years and are doing excellent work the people and to take part in the government -but it was necessary to afford this measure of the country. He also attacked the police. d protection to the people to prevent them I hope that some action will be taken to from being robbed with impunity. I know prevent a recurTence of these tactics that of one case in which a person was robbed of have been adopted for a number of years. certain properties. The agent was arrested With the Minister, too, I say that it was but absconded while on bail and has not been regrettable that an attack should have been apprehended. made on Mr. Sheehy, who was connected with I wish now to deal with matters 0oncerning the investigation. The disappearance of electoral registration. We have quite a num­ Marjorie Norval has been investigated and ber of electoral registrars doing very impor­ despite all the ramblings and rantings of the tant \York. They are performing their duties hon. member for Bundaberg, I am satisfied faithfully and in a very fair and impartial that the decent citizens of Queensland will ;vay. I have not heard or· complaints made take little notice of him and that his utter­ against them. Neither have I heard any com­ ances will be relegated to the place where they rightly belong. pla.int concerning the returning oHicers appointed by the department to look after We have a very important sub-department our elections. The electoral work in Queens­ being administered by this department. I land is being carried out faithfully and refer to the Licensing Commission. It has impartially. That speaks volumes for the done much valuable work sin0e its establish­ spirit of co-operation existing between the ment. For a great number of' years many returning officers, the e1ectoral registrar, and hotels were not providing suitable accommo­ Mr. O'Hagan, the Under Secretary. dation for the travelling public. Hon. mem­ I am concerned at one matter. Assistant bers who have travelled in various parts of returning officers and returning officers for Queensland are aware that as a result of the the various electorates in Queensland have excellent administration of the Commission been appointed to conduct Brisbane ~ity the standard of this accommodation has been Council elections under the State Elechons mised. The licensing inspector has very Act. We know that certain expenditure must rightly insisted in many cases that before a be incurred by the assistant returning officers. licence is renewed a hot-water system shall The general returning officer for the city of be installed in the bar to ensure the cleanli­ Brisbane is the town clerk, Mr. Slaughter, ne~s of the utensils used. I am sure that all and he must work under the Elections Act hon. members are pleased with the excellent that the GoveTnment have passed. The results that have attended the labours of the various assistant returning officers weTe Commission. A very commendable spirit of appointed by the Government when the City co-operation has been exhibited by hotel pro­ of Brisbane Act was amended, and they are prietors. They have willingly co-operated with therefore officers of the Department of Jus­ the Commission in carrying out all its recom­ tice. I know Mr. 0 'Hagan and other officers mendations, and in this respect have brought of the department know that in an election about very happy relationships between the certain fees are allowed to the returning Commission and themselves. Their action is officers, and, in addition, certain clerical work deserving of some meed of praise. must be carried out; and on each occasion after an election is held the various returning I desire, also, to refer to the work per­ officers make up their expenditure-and they formed by the Registrar of Auctioneers and only pay fees. in accordance with the clerical Commission Agents. This is undertaken by award-and those fees are paicl to the clerks the chief clerk, Mr. A. McGregor. Before the who perform those duties. There is never legislation that established this office was any trouble as far as the Department of passed, almost anybody could set himself up Justice is concerned in regard to the payment as an auctioneer or commission agent. Some of those fees, but I am concerned at the began business with very little capital, and attitude taken up by the Brisbane City there were many instances in which such men Council in regard to the last municipal elec­ induced a man possessing means to enter into tion. A large amount of clerical work had partnership with them. That partner paid to be done. The same set of circumstances £100 or £150 for a partnership share. On has arisen over a number of years. Hon. numerous occasions he found too late that the members opposite who have been members of ·firm did little or no business and lost his the council are well aware of the fact that money. Quite a number of these snide auc­ during the time Mr. Travill was town clerk tioneers and commission agents handle fUnds there was no difficulty with regard to the belonging to the public. Quite a number of payment of those clerical fees and expenses unwary people lost considerable sums. As a incurred by the returning officers. Mr. Travill result of this legislation and the creation of checked up the amount due and it was paid this office, a person is compelled to find a out; but we find that after the recent council bond before he can set up as an auctioneer election the town clerk refused to pay certain or commission agent. That in itself is a very clerical expenses of those returning officers. fine protection to the public. I wish to pay a That is rather a regrettable attitude for a tribute to the work done by Mr. McGregor. local authority to take up. I was wondering We all know that before his office was created if the Department of Justice could not take quite a number of defalcations took place in some action to see that those men, who are these businesses. I do not wish my remarks part-time servants of the Crown, are paid to be misinterpreted, for there are some very the accounts that they have incurred excellent men carrying on this class of busi- for clerical expenses during the recent 778 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. council elections. No-one can reasonably lent work of seeing that our soldiers, sailors, suggest that these men, who are honour­ and airmen who went overseas were pro­ able men holding honourable positions, tected so far as their votes were concerned. are going to falsify accounts for clerical Legislation made provision that men going expenses and forward them to the town clerk. overseas to fight for their country should Expenses l1ave been incurred and paid on have a vote-and rightly so-by means of previous occasions. On this occasion the proxy voting, but there has not been co-opera­ town clerk assured them all they had to do tion with 1\Ir. Maguire, of the Electoral was to submit accounts and they would Office, by the military authorities that one be met, but after the accounts were submitted would expect. Porms for voting by proxy to the town clerk they found he was not cannot be obtained by persons other than prepared to pay over and above a certain the soldiers themselves. That was a very amount. \Ve are not going to have elections wise provision, but when Mr. Maguire and. run in a proper manner-and it is important his staff visit the various staging camps to that elections should be run in a fair and distribute these forms and obtain the square manner and be aboveboard-if we are requisite signature on them there is at times not going to repay to these men the clerical difficulty with the officer in charge, who is expenses incurred in carrying out their duty. not very keen on rendering assistance. These people have not been paid. Several RBcently, I referred Mr. Maguire to the conferences have taken place with the town fact that many men who were about to go clerk in connection with this matter, and overseas were at a staging camp in Queens­ several requests have been made for the pay­ land, the name of which for security reasons ment of those accounts. I will not mention, and at other camps, and No attempt has been made by the Brisbane on my inquiry he informed me that certain City Council to meet theso commitm·ents. It voting forms had been left with the officer is appalling that such a state of aifa..irs in charge. I now find that the man who should exist, and I trust the department will gave me the information that these men were take some action. The returning officer in going away had not been supplied with these my electorate-and I believe this applies forms. Mr. Maguire has done everything generally to returning officers-when he possible to ensure that these men will be engages clerks to do this work (and there able to record their votes whilst absent from is a vast amount of work to be done) has the State. paid these clerks out of his own pocket rather I hope that we shall have greater co­ than have it said the clerks were not paid operation from the military authorities. As for the work they did and for which the these men are leaving the country to defend returning officer engaged them. It is only it they should have some sa·y as to who is fit and proper that some action should be to represent them. Mr. Maguire !~as done a taken to compel the Brisbane City Council g&od deal of work in connection with enrolling to meet its obligations. I know legal action a number of those men. Much more has to has been threatened, but I hope it will be done and the military authorities should not be necessary for these men to have to at least notify the Electoral Office when large take legal proceedings against the Council. batches of men are likely to be sent away Mr. M;oore: The Chandler administra­ so that provision can be ma'de to provide tion. them with proxy forms. It is a big job that has to be done. I do not know what is taking Mr. POWER: That is so. I hope that place outside Brisbane, but I know it must action will not have to be taken against the be a tremendous job to visit the various council to make it pay the men that to which camps throughout the State to see that these they are justly entitled. There should be proxy forms are signed so that the men and no difficulty whatsoever in having these women who are going outside Australia can accounts checked by a :responsible auditor. record their votes. If hon. members are to If the money was wrongly expended, then, live up to their responsibilities they should of course, the council would have no right get in touch with the electoral registrars so to expend public moneys. The practice throughout the State and ask them to see has been adopted over the years and I sup­ that every opportunity is given to these men pose if a comparison was made of the and women to sign proxy forms. accounts submitted to the council and those State elections are different from the submitted to the Department of Justice for Pederal elections. In the Pederal election work of a similar kind it would be found the votes are recorded at the scene of operations amounts are virtually the same. The Govern­ or at the va'rious battle stations, but under ment were willing to pay these accounts and the State Act provision is made for the men so should the Brisbane City Council. I hope tiJ appoint a proxy to vote for them during the Government will take some action to their absence in Queensland. I compliment compel the council to meet its obligations. Mr. Maguire on what he has done about The matter has been in abeyance for a con- this matter. Much more has to be done and 9iderable time, but nothing has been done. the work of our electoral officers could be There are many other important sections made very much lighter if the military of the department and I take this opportun­ authorities would co-operate more with them ity of complimenting the Electoral Registrar a11d inform them when la'rge bodies of men for Queensland on the very efficient way have been called up and where they are in which he has enrolled the people in the stationed so that responsible officers can be State. He did excellent work in that direc­ sent from the department to deal with the tion and he is also responsible for the excel- matter. Supply. [7 OcTOBER.] Supply. 779

JUr. Yeates: Are· you in favour of should have no hesitation in agreeing to a :amalgamating the State and Federal rolls~ proposal to have uniform rolls. (Time expired.) Mr. POWER: I certainly and definitely am not in favour of it. I have had more to Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (7.18 do with Federal rolls than, I think, the hon. p.m.: Speaking in regard to the electoral fran­ member for East Toowoomba has. The chise, the hon. member for Baroona-- Federal roll is a disgrace. Thousands and Mr. Power: You called me the horrible thousands of people are disfranchised from member before I went out. year to year, because the man who is placed in charge of the various polling-booths during Mr. YEATES: No, not horrible. I could an election has no idea of the boundaries. never say that. After the statement Take my own electorate. On one side of the made by the hon. member for Baroona road is the Toowong subdivision of Brisbane about the Federal rolls, I am going to and on the other side is Paddington. Many a give this information for the benefit of the time the man in charge of the polling-booth, Hon. Attorney-General-and back benches, of through ignorance says, ''You are not on the course. A highly respected citizen of this roll.'' Unless you have a key man to check State, who pays income tax-of course, they the roll many people are denied a vote. clo not forget that-is not on the roll, and he Mr. Stewa·rt and I saw it on a previous finds it impossible to get on the roll. His occasion. I told Mr. Stewart that if it had wife is living here in Queensland. I can pro­ not been for the key men, or the number of duce a letter from that man to that effect, workers outside the various polling-booths, and if that is the experience of one highly thousands o£ our people would have been respected citizen, it is probably the experien0e disfranchised under the system that operates of some other people, wage-earners for at Federal elections. If the Federal Govern­ instan0e, equally highly re&peeted. I am ment are willing to wipe out all subdivisions going to bring that letter to the a:tten tion a·nd place all people's names on the roll of the Attorney-General. without subdivisions the Federal roll would be of greater value and more satisfactory to Mr. Riordan: Tell us why he cannot get the people of Queensland for they would have on the roll. a better opportunity of recording their votes Mr. YEATES: I want to know why. and certainly not a:> many people would be refused votes as there are under tl1e present Mr. IUordan: We want to know why. system. Mr. YEATES: Well, I will bring it before The hon. member for East Toowoomba asked the proper authority. me by way of interjection if I was in favour of uniform rolls. Certainly, I am in favour ~Ir. Riordan: Here is the proper of uniform rolls, but I am not in favour of authority-Parliament. uniform rolls controlled by the Commonwealth Government or any other Government. The :Mr. YEATES: The statement I have Commonwealth Electoral Act makes provision made is correct. I cannot just place my hand for the removal of names from the roll in a on the letter at the moment. but I have it way I think is not right. Postmen receive a s.nd I will place it ou the table if I am called certain amount for each elector taken off the upon to do so. roll on their report. Quite recently a prosecu­ Mr. Riordan: Is he an unnaturalised tion took place, and it was revealed that a person~ postman in my own district had submitted a report stating that certain people had left the Mr. YEATES: He is a Britisher and has district. Their names were removed from the been living in Queensland for years. roll. Upon a check being made it was found Mr. Powe,r: Is he 21? that those people still lived there. A person may be away from home on holidays for two Mr. YEATES: Yes. Here is another or three months or temporarily transferred. complaint I have, and I am going to submit In those cases his permanent address remains this direct to the Attorney-General and not to his home where he has lived. In some of any of his officers. I am going to blame him these ~ases we find names removed from the and he can deal with the officers. That is rcll under the machinery provided by the none of my business. The Toomaroo Pro­ Commonwealth Ele0toral Act. prietary Limited OW11S stations in the far Vvest, about Eulo-the hon. member for I wish to make a comparison between the vVarrego will know all about this matter­ Federal rolls and the State rolls. In my own and wrote to me on 14 October, 1942, inter district there are six subdivisions of the Com­ alia- monwealth division of Brisbane, and we find " While on the subject of the influence· that the residents on one side of the road may exercised by the A.W.U. to the detriment be in Paddington subdivision, and on the of other people I may quote you part of a other side in Toowong subdivision. The resi­ letter dated September 5th received from dents on one side of the road may have to go Mr. J. Roy Hall, of the Wooldridge Rigby balf a mile to record their votes, although Shearing Co., Cunnamulla. It reads- there is a polling-booth for the other subdi­ ''' Classer Barry has prosecuted me for vision in their street. If the Commonwealth grown sheep rates for Dynevor lambs. Government introduced a system whereby sub­ The case was staged to take place in divisions would be eliminated altogether, I Eulo 5th September. I also prosecuted 780 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

four Dundoo shearers for breach of The Minister will not stand for it. Anyone award, which was also set down for Eulo who knows the Minister knows that he would 5th September. I got in touch with not allow any officer of his department to get C.P.S., Cunnamulla, wanting cases to be away with anything of the kind referred to transferred to here, and got no satisfac­ by the hon. member for Bundaberg. I am tion. As .it happened Dynevor crutching sorry that lion. member is not present to-night was to fimsh about 5th, and I had shear­ because, unlike the hon. member, I am ing finishing and starting in 'l'hargomin­ reluctant to make any statement about a man dah. Also had to take sheep buyer to if he is not present. I think the least any Thargomindah, and so wanted an . hon. member can do is to make such charges adjournment of cases in Eulo on 5th, as have been made in this Chamber to-day but again no satisfaction. in a place where these men will have the opportunity to defend themselves. '' 'After I had cancelled trip to 'l'har­ mindah, Cunnamulla C.P.S. rings me up I am familiar with the important work of to say Mr. Duffy (Secretary of A.W.U.) this department and I realise the great would not be available on 5th, and Cunna­ responsibility placed on the officers who are mulla cases were adjourned for one entrusted to carry out its work. In the month, also note cases were transferred various parts of my district I have had to Cunnamulla to suit A.W.U., but I much to do with the clerks of petty sessions could not get the same granted.''' and I know they do a wonderfully good job. ''The above gives you some idea how They are called upon to make decisions in C.P.S., magistrate, and A.W.U. are one and matters of great importance and they do it work together. conscientiously and with credit to themselves and to the department that employs them. "There is, it seems to me, in the West one law for the A.W.U. and its adherents I should like to say a few words about the and another for people who do not hold Licensing Commission. 'l'he department has the same political and industrial points of been entrusted with the work of endeavouring view as are held by the union.'' to meet the very serious position that has arisen in the metropolis in regard to accommo­ This is a serious matter. I am telling you dation. A Travellers' Accommodation Bureau what the Toomaroo Proprietary Limited has has been set up that has afforded consider­ told me. I am taking its word for it. I able relief, particularly to people who are understand it is a fact. It is now for the forced to come~ to the city to seek medical Attorney-General to say whether the office of attention. I realise how serious it is for the stipendiary magistrate or clerk of petty people who come here and find it almost sessions at Cunnamulla is working in with the impossible to get any kind of accommoda­ Australian Workers' Union, and whether tion, but the department is doing good work there is one law for the Australian Workers' to accommodate those people. Union and one law for the rest of the people. That is all I want to know. I want the thing The question of hotel accommodation has cleared up to my satisfaction and I will not become a serious problem in North Queens­ let the matter rest until it is cleared up land and has caused considerable inconveni­ properly-that is putting it straight. I am ence, particularly to people who are travel­ sorry I have to leave the Chamber, as I would ling, because many of these towns are visited like to hear the reply of the Attorney-GeneraL by Allied soldiers and men of the Australian Imperial Forces on leave because they are Mr. THEODORE (Herbert) (7.25 p.m.): quieter and perhaps for the reason that there I desire to congratulate the Minister on the is more chance of getting a supply of beer way in which this very important department than in the larger centres. It is a difficult has been administered. It is one of very problem, because the civilians come along, great importance to this State. I desire to particularly at the week-ends, and find all pay a tribute to the officers of the department the hotel accommodation is occupied. As a because they have very grave responsibilities result of the efforts of the department to to discharge. I am sure they recognise the see that the hotelkeepers carry out their weight of that responsibility, for they have obligations in regard to supplying meals, the carried out their duties not only diligently hotels have responded. The hotels at which but with the greatest integrity. I have stayed in my district particularly are giving a very satisfactory service, notwith­ This afternoon we listened to a vitriolic standing the shortage of labour for staffing. attack on officers of this department who are It is a very difficult problem. unable to defend themselves. It is not the first time such an attack has been made on Mr. Plunkett: That is typical of every them. It is a reflection on the Attorney­ place. General for any hon. member to make such attacks as were made by this irresponsible ~Ir. THE OD ORE: I realise that. Some individual, whose aim in doing so seems to hotels are not making any attempt to supply be to belittle this Chamber. meals. They supply the beer while it lasts, but they give no consideration to the meals, The Secretary for Mines: He is making which are the most important thing. Lack a coward's castle of Parliament. of staff is the trouble, and some proprietors go to the length of giving assistance them­ Mr. THEODORE: He is not only making selves when they can in order to meet pn blic a coward's castle of Parliament but a travesty demands. I think that is all we can expect of it. It is tragic to think that such scenes them to do. It is a very difficult matter, can be enacted in this Chamber. but it is very important that everything Supply. [7 OcTOBER.] Supply. 7811 should be done to enable the hotels to give tions still obtain, but as I have said I should as effective a service as possible. like the matter kept alive so that when con­ ditions return to normal we shall have an The department is also to be commended officer at Sandga te for the service of the on the way in which the liquor traffic is now people there and the adjacent districts. controlled. This gave the Government very serious thought for a considerable time, but A matter upon which I wish to congratu­ taking all things into consideration the posi­ late the Attorney-General is the changing of tion is very satisfactory. Perhaps it is not the allocation of special ''Golden Caskets'' as we should like it to be inasmuch as there to patriotic purposes from one in 10 to one is a large influx of soldiers at certain periods in five. This matter was raised by the of the day when hotels are open and they Opposition last year and I took part in the virtually prevent civilians from getting a debate, dealing moTe particulaTly with the· drink. Some people who hke to have one or aspect of the Prisoners of War Fund and two drinks now and then are frequently urged that it should be included in those to unable to get a drink at all. Thev cannot derive benefits from these caskets. I am very well stand outside a hotel and wait until pleased to be able to say that their position the doors open. This does not matter very has been recognised and I congratulate the much to me personally, but in justice to Attorney-General on making provision for thos~ people who have been working all day that fund. We know that it is a subsidiary I thmk that if beer or other liquor is likely of the Red Cross, but we also know that it to be available they are entitled to one or is a fund that must be built up because our two glasses. men who fall into enemy hands could hardly Another section in which this department is live without the aid that is given by the to be congratubted on its excellent wol'k Red Cross through moneys derived from a is the Public Curator's Office, which special subdivision of that activity. The· renders a very great service to the State. people of the State must agree with the All sections of the people have shown the Government's action in having more Golden greatest confidence in this public utility. Caskets allocated for the benefit of patriotiC' To-day it controls assets and funds exceeding movements. In many areas in Queens­ £5,000,000, and the wills under which the land the people have so organised themselves. Public Curator is appointed executor number to help this fund that regular sums of money 56,000. That reflects great credit on this have been contributed from both country and office, which is one for which the Labour town centres, and I am pleased to report Government have every reason to be proud. that in my electorate we have now reached the stage at which the public are subscribing, Taking them in general, the departments mostly in small amounts from almost every controlled by the Attorney-General deserve house in the area, the sum of £160 a month every consideration for the work they are to that object. That sum can be relied upon doing, and I am sure the people of Queens­ month after month. If there is any variation land heartily approve of them. it is usually by way of an increase in that figure. I know that the Sandgate area is Mr. DECKER (Sandgate) (7.35 p.m.): not alone in its efforts in that direction. 1 We all realise the great difficulties with know that the people of Queensland in which this department has had to contend general are subscribing commendably to this owing to enlistments and depletion of staff worthy cause. We know they are doing the for service in other fields of war activity, but same thing in other parts of the State and the Attorney-General is indeed fortunate in the Government can be assured that any having at his disposal such skilled key officers efforts they make to help the body control­ as are now administering the service. They ling the fund will meet with almost universal have all shown their organising ability in approval. It is only right that I should men­ addition to ability to handle the work of the tion the matter, beeause I am particularly department, inasmuch as with the temporary labour they have at their disposal they have interested in the fund, and I offer my con­ been able so to organise the work that gratulations to the Government on increasing although hampered to some extent it con­ the special Caskets from which patriotic tinues to work with the same faithfulness as bodies may derive benefit. in the past. The hon. member for Baroona and the hon. Having regard to the condition of the member for East Toowoorn:ba referred to staff perhaps I should not at this time press the Electoral Office. My experiences may be the request that Sandgate be declared a petty different from those of some of my colleagues,. sessions district. I know the time is not but I find that the Electoral Officer in opportune, but I bring the matter forward to Queensland does a wonderful job. I have keep it alive and hope that when conditions never joined in any charge that the rolls are a~e n:-ore. normal we shall have a petty sessions in an unclean or out-of-date condition d1stnct m Sandgate. The district is now of because I have gone through the rolls in my such importance that it demands a clerk of area for years and although I can say that petty sessions. When my friend the late Hon. sometimes we have had cases of plural voting J. 0 'Keefe was Attorney-General I made that has probably been due to the fault of this requE'st to him and he was good enough the voters themselves or perhaps to a mistake to have the matter inveRtig2ted. He gave on the part of a poll clerk. If you wrote me the information that the matter had been a letter to every elector on the Sandga te roll thoroughly gone into, but just at that time it it is quite within the bounds of possibility was not opportune to press for a clerk of that you would have from 600 to 800 returned; petty sessions. I recognise that those condi- but it does not follow that the rolls are out '782 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

-of order. Upon going through those rolls to the Attorney-General that there is no real one finds very few mistakes in the spelling advantage in having that number on the -of names or in addresses, and the people ballot-paper, which identifies it with the themselves often do not give the electoral elector. It is time that question was officer the help they should because I find inquired into to see if it is not possible to that in an area such as mine there are many adopt the Federal system and make it a <'Changes and persons have failed to notify the really secret vote. The number could easily electoral officer of them. Until a person has be eliminated from that corner, and an occupied a new address for one month he initial placed on the ballot-paper. I think, is not obliged to notify the electoral office that would give greater confidence to the of the new address. Som'etimes people never people of this State in the secrecy of the notify the electoral office of any change, and ballot. At present it is doubted by a great when one goes through the returns of people number of people. In any event, [ have raised who have not voted one finds various causes the point for the consideration of the why they have remained on the roll. Some Attorney-General. I have put it fairly people have died and the electoral officer has without criticism, because the system has not been notified in time to adjust his operated for a long time, but my opinion records. Other people are sick and fail to and that of many other people is that there exercise the postal vote. Others have been should be a change. I think that as fair­ outside their electorate and perhaps sent in minded members we should adjust that matter, postal votes. There are still others who do and there is no time like the present to make not vet~;; because they change their address the adjustment. within a siwrL period and do not notify the Extra services have been taken over by -electoral office of the change. There is this department. We all realise that three nearly always some reason if one cares to y8ars ago the Licensing Commission and delYl' int>o the question. I am referring prisons were attached to the dep;lrtment con­ ,particu:arly to Sandgate. trolled by the Secretary for Health and Rome The electoral officer did a worthy job and Affairs. I think it was a splendid move to so did the Government Printer who printed place them under the control of the Attorney­ the rolls. The rolls are very a'ccurate when General because I really think that is where _you consider the number of na:mes there are they b~long. I have perused with interest and the constant changes that are taking the report by the Comptrol1er-Genera1 of place. Prisons, Mr. Whitney, and I am pleased to There are some weaknesses in the control of note that our prisons have been brought up 1llections, but they are not all the fault of to date. He talks of the comforts that have returning officers or the staff employed at been provided for the men. We have heard election times. I think we have all ha'd from the l1on. member for East 'l'oowoomba -experience as scrutineers or have taken part what meals are given to prisoners. We know in the counting of the votes at elections. we must give humane treatment to those The box containing the ballot-pa'pers is people but what I should like to see in the turned out on the table. I have noticed, report' of the Comptroller-General is what and probably so has every other hon. effect he thinks the treatment meted out member, that sometimes the comer of the to these people on the prison farms and in paper with the number of the voter is the gaols is having on these unfortunates, open, perhaps through hastiness of the clerk not altogether during the time of their or some fault in the glue. If a: paper comes imprisonment, but in after life. Do men 'OUt of the box in that way, and a scrutineer return to prison merely because they st;ek can see the number thus disclosed, he can the protection of the prison, or do they denve ascertain the way that person has voted, any benefit from it so that they get a fresh because the vote is on the same paper. The start and a new interest in life that keeps re5ult is that the ballot is not as secret as them out of prison in the future~ Some we could make it. The secrecy of the vote statement in that respect would be for the is lost. A number of electors have complained benefit of hon. members. to me that it is unfair to have the enrolment It is interesting to note from the report number attached to the ballot-paper. It is that the men in prison are taught trades. not done in a Federal election, in which the Among them are tailoring, bootmaking, tin· initial of the clerk only is placed on tl1e smithing, carpentering, bookbinding, mat­ voting paper, and that makes it a bona-fide making, and brushmaking. The report reveals vote. It is often found, too, when the votes that the expenditure on prisons for 1942 was are being counted, that the corner of a paper £41,276, whereas the value of the work done containing the number has been torn off, by prisoners was £32,644. That is real organi­ b('cause the elector has feared that the sation. It reveals that our prisoners are more number may disclose how he or she voted. or less self-supporting. There is no doubt Tha't defaces the ballot-paper, and the vote that we have made advances not only in i3 disallowed. When we get such a number housing prisoners but in using prison labour of individual voters doing that and others reproductively. The report as a whole reveals making complaints, something should be done that humane treatment is being meted out to to try to remedy the situation. There is no prisoners and is a credit to those in charge question that there is a breach of secrecy of this work. ·of the ballot in the cases I have mentioned. A vote becomes public property if it is lUr. TURNER (Kelvin Grove) (7.52 p.m.): possible for anyone to get a glimpse of the I offer my congratulations to the Minister number in the turned-down corner. I suggest and officers of his department on the good Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. work they are still performing. That is are already self-supporting and, to a large­ revealed particularly in the report of the extent, support the Prisons Department. At Comptroller-General of Prisons for the year Palen Creek they kill the beef and mutton ended 31 December, 1942. It shows the effort for the other departments of the prisons, and being made to rehabilitate an unfortunate until a few months ago were supplying section of our people who happen to fall by Numinbah and Whitinbah with their meat, the wayside. The efforts of the department but within the last few months a slaughter­ go a long way to help them to become good house has been constructed at \Vhitinbah and citizens. The Comptroller-Geneml is deserving Numinbah and this supplies the beef and of every commendation for his work in this mutton for both these prison farms, because direction. they adjoin one another. The hon. member Some time ago a system was introduced in for East Toowoomba made reference to the our prisons to enable the prisoners to be beef he saw at Boggo Road Gaol to-day. The· trained in a calling selected by themselves to prisoners there are able to get so much meat fit them for useful employment on their dis­ because it is grown on our prison farms. charge. In order to allow them to study, the During my last visit to Palen Creek an Cabinet, on the recommendation of the Comp­ officer from the AmeTican Navy accompanied troller-General, extended the period for which a party of ·which I was a member, and I met prisons were lighted by one hour. Thi;; him again at a gathering. a few nights ago· enabled the prisoners to read good literature in my electorate, and he referred to this and cleanse their minds. I have had the visit. He was very enthusiastic and sang its opportunity of visiting the three prison farms praises and was particularly impressed by the now established-namely, Palen Creek, excellent physical condition of the men. He Numinbah, and Whitinbah. It would do any said it was a revelation to him to see them hon. member good to visit these farms and working in shoTts-no singlet-and just a examine for himself the work that is being pair of hard boots to protect their feet in accomplished. I wish to say, for the infor­ the scrub. He said they looked as though mation of the hon. member for Sandgate, they could fight a 20-round boxing contest that I asked Mr. Whitney for the information or run 5 or 10 miles and were fit to take he suggested should be placed in the report any job when they were discharged. That for the benefit of hon. members-namely, the is something of which we should be very effect of prison treatment on prisoners; 12 proud. Under the old system of keeping months ago, when I was speaking on this prisoners in solitary confinement, after such vote, the hon. member for East Toowoomba treatment for any length of time they lost all interjected to the effect that the present-day desire to work, which is only natural. The· treatment of prisoners would create within plentiful supply of wholesome food our them a desire to return to prison again. It prisoners grow for themselves and the healthy has had the opposite effect; it makes them physical work develop an excellent physical long for better things. The officers deal with condition, and they are able to take any the inmates of the prisons on the lines of the employment when they come out. old adage that there is a little bit of bad in Mr. Whitney goes further than one could: all of us and still a little bit of good in the reasonably expect a man in his position· to go_ worst of us. They are bringing out that He makes every effort when a prisoner is little bit of good that is in these men. They discharged to find employment for him in are fitting them to take their place in the com­ some position for which he has fitted himself munity as citizens on their release. Proof while he has been in prison. The hon. member of that is to be had in the fact that only for Sandgate mentioned many of the trades two prisoners on our prison farms have, since available to prisoners. They become very their discharge, returned to prison. That competent in the callings they choose for speaks volumes for the work of the depart­ themselves; and as a result of Mr. Whitney's. ment. efforts they are able to go into jobs when A visit to our prison farm at Palen Creek they leave prison and become useful citizens. would amaze hon. members who have not had That calls for high praise for the Prisons. that opportunity. Mr. \Vhitney, with some Department, whose officers deserve th~ .com­ half-dozen prisoners, established that farm. pliments of every one of us and the C1t1zens He had to clear the bush in order to erect of Queensland for the wonderful work they tents for their accommodation. Work was are doing. started on the farm the following day. The I was pleased to hear the treatment meted reforestation work accomplished by these out to the returning-officers in connection with prisoners has, in itself, been astounding. The the last municipal elections mentioned by the­ farm has its own nursery, where seedlings hon. member for Baroona. Many of these are raised. Approximately 30,000 pine trees officers did a strenuous job during that elec­ have been raised and planted out at Palen tion. I know the officer in my electorate had Creek alon·e. Some of these trees are now close on 1,000 erasures to make from the ~oll 10 feet high. · That alone is astounding, par­ and in order to get the roll ready for elect10n ticularly when it is remembered that it was day he had to engage labour. It is essential only on 6 December, 1934, that a small area to engage clerical labour to do that work, and there was cleared in order to accommodate the the amount laid down by the town clerk for prisoners. There are big prospects ahead of such work was a little more than 1s. 6d. an Palen Creek. hour. I do not think anyone in this Chamber When that timber has matured and is ready would say that while the clerical-award rate for the mill it will add grea,tly to the for casual employees is about 3s. an hour an revenue derived from the prison farms, which officer in control of that work should be asked 184 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

to engage labour and pay so small an amount for it. Many of them have committed them­ The department under the control of the selves to paying this casual labour themselves Attorney-General is very interesting from because they felt it was their duty to do so many angles, and it is pleasing to find hon. in accordance with the award, and, as the members throwing a little light, or perhaps hon. membe1· for Baroona stated, they are even a searchlight, on the doings of the real­ endeavouring to get from the council what estate men of this city. The R·eal Estate they are justly entitled to. The latest infor­ Institute has been established, and the law mation I have is that the town clerk has passed by tl1is State has enabled it to operate offered to compromise: he has offered to meet su0cessfully. I pay tribute to the Registrar them half-way. These gentlemen are chosen cf Auctioneers and Commission Agents, who because of their standing in the community; is an officer of this department, for his wisdom they are chosen be<"ause they are men that and for the advice that at all times he has every citizen has the utmost confidence in; given to people who have been badly or and for men to have a reflection cast on their improperly treated by men calling themselves honour, such as has been cast on 14 or 15 of commission agents or auctioneers. A study the 20 returning-officers for the municipal of the records over the past few years will "election, is a standing disgmce to the council. reveal that there have been very few of the I sincerely hope the Attorney-General will, if unfortunate episodes that were in evidence it is possible for his department to do so, take for many years. As a member of the institute "action to see these men are paid the amounts I thank the Government for their help and .they have asked for. advice at all times and for making conditions watertight so far as the management of real­ Mr. Phmkett: Does the returning officer estate business is concerned. I also thank the .employ cleri0al assistance W officer in charge of that department. When Mr. TURNER: He has to employ assist­ people have laid complaints with him, he has ance to help with the job of preparing the had them investigated promptly. Of course, it rolls. These men have to make sure that a is not always the agent who is at fault, but name that should not be on the roll is not if it is so the bond held on his behalf can be there. Every possible care has to be exercised. used to recompense the sufferer. The labour employed must be carefully I do not wish to ma'ke any comparisons selected, and the dispute is over the payment with other professions, other than to say ·of these people who have been employed to that the legal profession has protected itself help the returning officer generally. The by setting aside a certain amount of money returning officer should not have to take for the protection of clients against the action against the council to obtain a refu~d illegal use of moneys by lawyers. To-day cf the money paid out. Most of them pa1d the Real Estate Institute of Queensland {)Ut of their own pockets, and I sincerely hope requires all prospective members to pass something is done to save further unpleasant­ examinations of a high standard and insists ness. The matter has already been placed in that all such persons shall be of high repute. tl1e hands of legal men. I am sure it will be pleasing to all to know that the prestige of that institute to-day is Mr. Phmkett: Did they have authority very high indeed. from the council to employ these people~ Clerks of petty sessions and the Solicitor­ Mr. TURNER: A small allowance, which General's Office have had a huge amount of :is not nearly sufficient,· is made. I understand work cast upon them recently under the regu­ that the town clerk gets well over £100 for lations issued by the Commonwealth Govern­ his part in allotting these jobs, but the men ment, and it is gratifying to know that who a0tually do the work and have to employ persons may go to either or both departments the people to help them are asked to have it and receive free advice on matters relating to done at virtually half the rates provided by tenancies of properties that would not be an award for a similar class of work. The subject to certain conditions under our people concerned are determined to see the ordinary laws. 'l'he clerks of petty sessions thing through to the en~. The action o~ th_e in outside districts, as well as in Brisbane, town clerk in endeavounng to compronuse 1s and the officers of the Solicitor-General's an admission that they are entitled to the Department, have been very helpful to the money asked for; otherwise he would have community in giving advice on these matters. informed them that they were not entitled to We all know that in these days conditions it and could not get it. are very hard for both tenant and landlord, 1Ur. LUCKINS (Maree) (8.6 p.m.): This and the Commonwealth Government in their is a very important vote. It enforces the law wisdom have obtained the services of Depart­ and sees that justice is done. We are pro­ ment of Justice officers to administer regula­ gressing, and it is by taking heed of past tions and give advice. experiences that we are able to make condi­ I should like to refer now to the electoral tions better for those who have occasion to laws of the State and the way in which elec­ seek justice or go to law. The people of tions are conducted. I have been through Australia, and particularly of Queensland, are many elections and I have never had any the most law-abiding people, and extreme complaint to make about the returning officers penalties are not necessary to make them with whom I had anything to do. They gave observe the law. British people, as a rule, are wonderful service in the elections, and the most law-abiding in the world. They although I do not know what amount is alia­ respect the laws made by their Governments, ea ted for the returning officer in each of the €Ven though they may not agree with them. 62 electoral districts of this State, I do say Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 785 that it is too little, whatever it is, for the suggestion for improving the secrecy of the services they render. First, we have the issue ballot, which is the very foundation of our of writs. Then a man may be leaving his system of democratic government. district, or will not be in it on election day. I want to pay tribute to the Prisons He goes to the returning officer or the Department. The Comptroller-General of Electoral Office, perhaps at night-time, and Prisons, Mr Whitney, is deserving of the that officer facilitates matters for him. These greatest credit for the humane and Christian officers are working day and night in the way in which he handles the prisoners, interests of the people, and I am certain particularly on the honour farms as we know that they do much more overtime than is them to-day. It is a great triumph for the realised even by the department. For that present system that a man can go out to I reason say that whatever help they need Palen Creek and the other farms set aside should be paid for, whatever expense they for that purpose. I understand that at find it necessary to incur should be met, Palen Creek up to 30 honour prisoners are knowing at all times that the Department working, but a'ccording to the Estimates there of .Justice will see to it that no extra money will be paid unless service has been rendered. are only four attendants to look after them. I am sorry that it has been suggested in this That in itself is a tribute to those men and Chamber that men have been unfairly treated. indicates that they honour their pledge to the That matter should have been brought before department and work in the interests of the the Attorney-General, and I feel certain that community in order to rehabilitate themselves he would have put the matter right without in society. I think that tribute must be the necessity for all this unfortunate pub­ extended to those men. They serve their licity. Publicity, cross-firing, and black­ sentences and they pay their debt to society. guarding of one section by another because I should like respectfully to suggest that certain things were or were not done, and the prison itself should be removed from casting slurs on people do not help at all. the city. I do not think it is a very edifying The town clerk may have certain money allo­ spectacle for the younger generation who pa'ss cated for an election in a budget that is by there and inquire, "What is that place prepared and approved under the law passed over there~'' They see a man marching ·by this House. Under ordinary circum­ round with a rifle in order to prevent the stances, he is not permitted to exceed the inmates from ecsaping. Such wonderful amount allocated in the budget, unless in improvements have been made in conditions an emergency. I cannot understand all this there that I think the next one should be the complaint. The only complaints I have heard removal of the gaol to an outside district. are those that have been raised in this Chamber, and I wish to take this opportunity The Secretary for Mines: Perhaps it of paying a tribute to the returning officers, might be a good deterrent. who carry out very difficult duties. I repeat that whatever their pay is I am sure that Mr. LUCKINS: I agree with the hon. they are entitled to any extra expense that gentleman, but I think education, social may be incurred. conditions, environment, and similar things have a tendency to make good citizens. The hon. member for Sandgate has drawn attention to a very serious matter in connec­ Tlle Secretary for Mines: I agree that tion with the secrecy of the ballot. He it should be removed, but the argument you Teferred in particular to the turning down have advanced is not quite sound. of the papers to conceal the numbers. Why it is necessary that ballot-papers shall be Mr. LUCKINS: I know that we are all numbered I cannot understand. So far as I inclined to be on the lenient side, but I am can see, it serves no useful purpose. It never firmly convinced that sometimes men are has. If the electoral laws provided that the wrongly imprisoned. officer responsible for issuing the ballot-paper The Secretary :for Mines: You could should place his initials on the back of the convert it into fiats. ballot-paper, that ought to be enough to qualify an elector to use it. If any questimi Mr. LUCKINS: I would not do that. I has arisen about the secrecy of the ballot should use it as a public park to com­ the Government should take the earliest memorate the prison system of Queensland opportunity of making inqmnes of the in the early days. It would be a park set returning officer who initialled the ballot­ aside for the use of the people, or better paper. still, it could be converted for use as u. At 8.15 p.m., hospital for those who are sick at heart and Mr. MANN (Brisbane) relieved the Chair­ sick in mind. We should then be earning the man in the chair. good will and gratitude of all in our march towards better citioonship and we should Jt[r. L UCKINS: I have a proposal to put be freeing the community from things that before the Minister in regard to plural voting. are distasteful. vVe are now in a position to make use of I want to make reference to the question identity cards. Nobody could escape. If a of Government aid to the unfortunate people person went to the polling-booth to vote and who are too poor to defend themselves in our produced his identity card it could be marked courts of law. The aid given by the Govern­ to show that he had voted and he would be ment is a very fine gesture and I feel sure unable to vote again. Tha't would be a appeals to the people who find they have to solution of any difficulty that might arise. use it. Notwithstanding the comments made I also support the hon. member for Sandgate 's about the charges made by members of the 786 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Real Estate Institute for services rendered, done anything that was not right, honourable, they cannot in any way compare with the and just. 'l'he department should protect the high fees permitted by Government regulation people from that angle. My statements call for services rendered by barristers and for the attention of the Commissioner of solicitors. I am astounded at times that the Prices. I commeml my remarks to the Government do not regulate them. I do not Attornoy-Geneml in order that people who know the details and I do not want to be unfortunately are compelled to go to law, even misunderstood, but I have heard of a case, though they may not want to, arc protected. in which ono party was contesting a payment, we will say, of £'600, for compensation or Mr. l)I00RHOUSE (Windsor) (3.26 p.m.): some other cause. I want to relate an experience I have had. It can be verified by the Registr-ar of Auc­ After the court gave a decision-counsel tioneers and Commission Agents, Mr. >Yas engaged on each side-I am told the McGregor. A spinster owned a property in costs submitted for taxation amounted to South Brisbane. She was persuaded by an the extraordinary sum of £400. There is agent to give him authority to sell it. He something wrong with the system that permits ,~old the property. An agreement was drawn that sort of thing. I have had experience up by a solicitor. lt speci:fically stated that myself, and I have been told of the experi­ the agreement to sell was not to operate until ence of men who have had matters set down the Department of War Organisation of for decision before the Land Court. In one Industry had given its consent. A deposit case in which I had business before the Land was paid when the agreement was executed. Court the chairman said, ''Well, gentlemen, The application for purchase and the appli­ have you conferred on this matter~" or cation to sell, together with the valuation ''Have you got together to thrash out your certi:ficate, were submitted to the relevant differences and arrived at an agreement W" department. That occurred in certain claims made by owners against the Crown in the matter of The Commonwealth Treasury refused to compulsory resumptions for dock purposes. The permit the sale. When the purchaser went parties confened and the matters in dispute along to colle0t his deposit from the selling were settled within half an hour. I thought agent he refused to refund it to him and said the barristers' expenses on that occasio'n were tl1at was his selling commission. I went extraordinary. They were associated in five to see Mr. McGregor because this lady or six cases. One barrister's fees for one approached me to help her out of her difficul­ half-hour's work in court were £250. That ties, and Mr. McGregor could not have done system requires Government investigation. I more than he did. Eventually the purchaser am not saying condemnatory things against issued a summons on the vendor for the the men who practise law, but the community return of his deposit; it was taken to court is compelled to approach our courts on matters and the vendor was compelled to pay £75- tha,t they cannot settle, and I am prepared to which was the amount of the deposit paid­ :fight to have these fees reviewed. If it is the together with all costs in the case. The opinion of the Attorney-General or his depart­ redress appears to have been that the woman ment that barristers are justified in charging had to prosecute the agent. What I should such high fees, then it is all right with me. like to know is: can we not do something to I ask the Attorney-General to give some protect people from this type of agentf I attention to this matter, as there seems to want to publicly express my appreciation of be room for vast improvement in present-day everything Mr. M0Gregor did on that occa­ practices. Litigants are asked to retain a sion in order to unravel this transaction so barrister in litigation they may have and I that this woman could be assured her position believe that the fee to retain a barrister in was perfectly clear. Surely nobody can a case is 100 guineas. That may be a relic legally claim a commission for selling when of the older science of law in the Inner it is a condition of the transaction that the Temple where they originated. I could Federal law has to be complied with and it occupy some time in expressing my views on cannot be complied with! Yet the agent was this subject, which I hope will be reviewed in a position legally to take the commission to make it more easy for litigants to from somebody when he was not justly entitled approach our courts. I am reminded that to do so because he did not complete the barristers also are paid refreshers. Refreshers transaction. I should like the Minister to are another matter that might need investi­ investigate this matter, because I feel it is gation. I am not against lawyers, who belong not the only one that has taken place in to a very highly skilled profession. Queensland. If there is a means of prevent­ The architects are another section of our ing what I call daylight robbery by way of professional men who chaTge very high fees. regulation or legislation, let us have it intro­ Members of the Real Estate Institute, like duced to stop these people from robbing myself, are permitted to charge on sales unfortunate women. 5 per cent. commission for the first £500 and 2~ per cent. on the balance. I am not one Tlw ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. D. A. who exacts commissions unless I am legally Gledson, Ipswich) (8.30 p.m.): First, I wish entitled to do so. I pay a registration fee to thank all the hon. members who have spoken to the Government and provide a bond of for their kindly reference to the Under Secre­ £500 for the protection of clients, and I there­ tary, the Assist::mt Under Secretary, and the fore am entitled to the protection of the other officers of the Department of Justice, GoveTnment. I certainlv have not been guilty who have during a strenuous year endeavoured of infringing any regulations, nor have I at to carry on the work of the department with anY, time taken advantage of a position nor [! reduced staff and give as much satisfaction Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 787

:as possible to the members of the public case. If a party to an action is not able to requiring their services. get to the place set down for trial, he can The hon. member for East Toowoomba spoke apply for a change of venue and the court about the Electoral Office, and raised the has a discretion. The court endeavours to question whether there should be one roll for fix a time and place suitable to both parties. the Commonwealth and for the State. It That is what was done in that particular case. would be very satisfactory if we could have As I said, a full reply was made last year, -one roll under the same conditions. By >yay and I do not know why the hon. member has of interjection I said that the only State that brought the matter up again. had one roll was Tasmania. At the present The hon. member for Herbert refened to time some of the other States, notably South the work done by clerks of petty ses~ions in Australia, Victoria, and New South ·wales, different parts of the State. These officers have also come in, and I believe now are work­ have had an exceptionally heavy task during ing on joint rolls. The experience of some of the past year. In fact, over the past three them, especially New South Wales, is not years clerks of petty sessions throughout the very helpful; they are not satisfied with the State have had so much work that a number working of the two rolls there. broke down in health. The department has Our qualifications for enrolment are dif­ had the greatest difficulty in coping with the ferent from the Commonwealth's. Our quali­ work of the petty sessions districts and :fications are better, and we do not intend to getting suitable officers to carry on the work. go back to the Commonwealth system. We At the present time there are a number of make it as easy as possible to get on the roll acting officers, who are relieving those who and as hard as possible to take people off the have not been able to carry on owing to the roll. Not so with the Commonwealth. The heavy strain. In addition to their multifari­ other day there was a case in which the man ous duties as clerks of petty sessions, they who went round to collect names returned a have had placed on them the work of the number of names, but it was found there was emergency food supplies for the different nobody at the addresses given; he collected centres of the State. The majority are chair­ money for putting in fictitious names and men of the committees concerned. Moreover, inflated the Commonwealth roll to that extent. they have now to act for the boards set up That does not happen in the State system. by the Department of Labour and Employ­ We do not intend to have one roll unless we ment in the various centres. The work has ean get uniform conditions-uniform condi­ been piling up so that it must be said that tions up to the standard of qualification that clerks of petty sessions are having a very the Queensland people have. If the Common­ strenuous time. I thank the hon. member wealth is willing to do that, we are willing to for Herbert and others who congratulated go into the question of the one roll. them and gave them a meed of praise for The hon. member for East Toowoomba the work they have done. -brought up the matter of a citizen who he Mr. JUoorhouse: They must he entitled says was qualified to be on the roll and could to a war loading. not get on. If the hon. member will give me the name the matter will be inquired into. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I should The electoral registrar would not refuse to think they would be, but they have not asked place on the roll the name of a man who had for a war loading. They have been willing to the necessary qualifications; it would be mo1·e do their bit in the war effort and have than his job was worth. carried on cheerfully and willingly. Mr. Maher: He is constantly travelling. The hon. member for Sandgate, in addition At 8.34 p.m., to the congratulations he offered, struck a fresh note. He said that he had no complaint The CHAIRMAN resumed he chair. about the rolls, nor the returning-officers, nor of the men conducting the elections in his The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: But that electorate. It was pleasing to hear him. The would not prevent his name from being on electoral registrar, the returning officers, and the roll for the district in which his home is officers of the department do the best they situated. That is one of the provisions can. They make sme, to the best of their ·Queensland has that the Commonwealth has ability, that every citizen, male or female, not. Such a person would be enrolled for over the age of 21 has the opportunity of bis place of residence. That he was travelling recording a vote in an election. would not matter. 'vVe have special regula­ tions provic1ing for men who have to work As to the secrecy of the ballot, that is one away from home. They provide that their of the things we insist on. When a person names can remain on the roll for the electoral goes into the polling-booth to record his vote, -districts in which their homes are situated. every precaution is taken to see that no other person knows how the vote has been cast. The The hon. member for East Toowoomba hon. member for Sandgate, supported by the Taised a matter regarding the Toomaroo Com­ hon. member for Maree, suggested that there pany at Eulo. That case was to be taken was a possibility that the gum would come at Cunnamulla. The allegation was replied unstuck and disclose the number on the to fully and clearly last session. There are ballot-paper. That might be so in one case always two parties to every case, a plaintiff out of a million. and a defendant, and the court always -endeavours to meet the parties in the matter Mr. Luckins: The average is not as low •of venue. That was what was done in that as all that. 788 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

'l'l1e A'I''.I'ORNEY-GENERAL: f have been Plural voting was referred to. After every through a long series of elections, long before by-election and general election the depart­ I came into Parliament; I have done a good ment is very careful about checking up aH deal of scrutineering and counting of ballot­ plural votes. papers, and I have not yet seen one paper We find that where plural voting has been on which the corner has come unstuck and reported and a check has been made with the number made visible. very few exceptions mistakes have been made 1\'!r. Luckins: I have seen a few. by the poll clerk in marking off the numbers on the roll. He has either marked off the llir. Plunkett: If they are not visible number below or the number above the num­ there should be no occasion to have them ber he should have marked off. That has been there. found to be so in the great majority of cases of suggested plural voting. At the last The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: In Queens­ general election when a check wa:> made of lane! we have what is known as the right plural votes, I think there were only two cases for anyone to object to an election. That that could not be explained or where it could objection is heard by an Elections Tribunal be said there was any doubt. When all cases constituted by a Supreme Court judge. Per­ of alleged plural voting were traced riglct haps a certain number of votes may be back it could be said that it had been com­ challenged and these may decide the election pletely eliminated. The old practice of either one way or the other. I had one case voting early and often has gone. A person myself when the late Mr. J. C. Cribb won now simply records his one vote. A few the Bremer electorate. There were only 30 years ago some persons tried to record plural votes between Mr. Cribb and his opponent. vctes but they did it in a different way. A protest was entered and the challenged They did not try to vote a second time in papers had to be sorted out. The only way their own names, but used other names. by which the challenged votes could be iden­ iVhen I was a very sma1l boy one of my tified was by getting the numbers. The only first jobs was to go round the electorate persons present when the numbers are turned where I was living on a pony, taking the up are the tribunal and the candidates. numbers from one polling booth to the Le:xt 'l'hese disputed votes must be obtained before polling booth, and handing them out to our the tribunal can give a decision one way or scrutineers for the purpose of preventing the other. That is why the number on the dual voting. That practice used to l>e n:ry corner of the ballot-paper is gummed down. prevalent in the olden days under Tory Gov­ That number can be revealed by no-one other ernments. Our scrutineers in those days than the tribunal. would challenge anyone who had voted previ­ ously as far as they possibly could. They JUr. Plunkett: The challenge would not were given the numbers and every attempt be on account of the number on the ballot­ was made to prevent plural voting. At the paper, it would be on account of the number present time we find that plural voting is not on the roll. known. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The num­ I now come to the matter referred to by ber on the ballot-paper is checked with the the hon. members for Sandgate, Kelvin number on the roll. Even if the hon. member Grove, and Maree, the work at the prison for Maree did see this one ballot-paper with farms. The Queensland Government for a the number turned up he could not tell whose number of years, and before I had anything vote it was unless he checked it with the to do with prisons, took pride in the prison number on the returning officer's roll. He system. 'l'hey have looked upon prisoners as has no possible chance of getting to know human beings the same as anyone else and whose vote it is unless he is in a position to treated them accordingly. The hon. member obtain the returning officer's roll. for Kelvin Grove spoke about a visit to prison farms with an officer of the American Mr. Luckins: Somebody might have Navy. A lieutenant in an American sub­ made a mental note of that number. marine that was out here had been engaged in the Crown Law Office in New York and The AT'.rORNEY-GENERAL: What he desired to visit the prison farm, and the difference would that make~ That is merely the number of the ballot-paper as issued by hon. member for Kelvin Grove and I went the returning officer, not the number on the with him. When he saw me go along to roll. It is there for the returning ofiicer 's some of the men and shake hands and talk guidance. If the hon. member did see the to them, he said he could not understand it. number he would not know whose ballot­ He said, "You would not have this in paper it was. America. They would all be there in a gang and you would not have any such feeling Mr. Kerr: The returning officer's number as that.'' He said that it amazed him. I told and the number on the roll are entirely him that the men were on their honour and different. that we treated them as human beings. l said, ''They might be here for a mis­ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That is so. demeanour and who knows that if it was No-one need fear that there will be any breach not for the grace of God we might be here of the secrecy of the ballot or that anyone ourselves instead of these men?'' will be able to know how he voted unless someone comes into the booth and watches 11-Ir. Plunkett: Did you say that to the him vote, and that. is not allowed. American7 Supply. [7 OCTOBER.] Supply. 789

The ATTORNEY.GENEltAL: Yes. I did imprisonment and a flogging.' The Queens­ say that to the American and he agreed that land Women's Electoral League, as its title that might be so. implies, is a political body, having some pretensions to the advocacy of social reform. 3Ir. JUallcr: You know that the honour If this is a sample of its ideas for the system originated in the United States of reformation of society, it should be instantly America. ruled out as having. the slightest c.Jaim for recognition in that regard. In the first Tile ATTORNEY-GENERAL: He is in place, it apparently delved precipitately Brisbane at the present time and we can into a matter, the circumstances of which bring him along to the bar of the House, if it had but the barest knowledge. The case hon. members so desire and he can speak in question was heard in the Ipswich Court for himself. He said he was surprised to see on Monday, and the members presumably the treatment meted out to the prisoners in relied on an abbreviated Press report of the Queensland. He said, ''I have learned som·e­ proceedings on which to form their 'judg­ thing in coming here that will stand me in ment.' good stead when I go bacl' to America.'' ~ome people are not satisfied with the prison ''The stipendiary magistrate who imposed system. They want to go back to the the sentence was in an entirely different system in vogue in the old days when position. Ile heard the prosecutor's state­ prisoners were flogged. ment which, in view of that tendered by an That was when they tied offenders up to a officer of the R.A.A.F.-of which the -post and got a man to whip or flog him. The accused was a member-might reasonably other day some good ladies met, called by the have been regarded as unduly severe, for, QueenslaNd Women's Electoral League, and unless there were circumstanc€s of the case carried a resolution. which were undisclosed, there seemed little justification to describe the offender as 'a Mr. Dart: What offence would that be sex pervert.' The R.A.A.F. officer's testi­ for-rape~ money was to the effect that defendant had been in the Air Force for nearly three and Mr. Riordan: You ought to lmow; you a-half years, and with the exception of one were out there. small breach of the regulations-which had The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No, it was no bearing on the offences with which he not for rape. It was assault, not rape at all. was charged-he had had a good record of There was no suggestion that rape had been service. Moreover, inquiries made of other committed. Air J<,orce members camped in the same hnt as defendant had revealed no complaint Mr. DART: Mr. Brassington, I rise to about his eonduct. Yet, the prosecutor, pos­ a point of order. The hon. member for Bowen sibly possessed of some knowledge of which said that I was out there. the public is not aware, conveyed the impres­ sion that the defendant's offences were the The CHAIRJliAN: There is no point of outcome of an ingrained sexual perversion. order. Judging by the published report of the ~ourt proceedings, there was little ·warrant The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The reso­ for the prosecutor's arriving at such a con­ lution carried by that organisation was sent clusion. The two offences were committed to me. It asked that a sentenc€ of six or on the same day, and, if the defendant's eight months passed on a man should have statement that he was under the influence been six years, and that we should resort to of drink at the time was correct, his misde­ flogging. meanours, admittedly grave, probably were Mr. Massey: What was the crime? due largely to a temporary aberration caused by this influence. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Assault. I will read hon. members something that ''At all events, the stipendiary magis­ appeared in the Ipswich ''Queensland Times,'' trate, whose inflietion of punishment on the which can by no stretch of imagination be defendant reflected-as his judgments called a Labour paper, as the hon. member invariably have-a sense of British justice, for West Moreton knows, because he gets the was qualified much more substantially than support of that paper. The ''Queensland members of the Q.W.E.L. to determine what Times,'' in its issue of 30 September last, such punishment should be. It is possible contained this article- that the members of that organisation have sons of their own; and, possibly, that some " Six Years' Gaol and a Flogging! of them are in the fighting services, far ''Of arrant presumption and rabid removed from their homes, and subjected to intolerance, members of the Queensland the temptation of drink which, as Rev. W. Women's Electoral League assembled in T. Phillips says in a letter appearing in Brisbane on Tuesday last provided a strik­ to-day's issue, is made available to them in ing example. A report of their meeting, profusion under the aegis of the Legisla­ published in a metropolitan paper, says that ture which, indirectly, thus is rcsponsil::l_ it 'discussed the sentence of six months' for much of the crime committed. Con­ imprisonment imposed on a man at Ipswich versely, it has done relatively little to on Monday for having assaulted a girl in grapple with the problems of sex, particu­ hospital; that members agreed unanimously larly those involving perversion. As an out­ that the sentence was far too lenient, and come of its remissness, many unfortunate should have involved at least six years' victims of congenital predisposition or other 790 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

influence are 0ast into prison as sinners their herds. At that farm they also have instead of being treated as patients for some pure-bred Berkshires whose progeny have their reclamation to society. If the defen­ gone out to the different farms of the district. dant in Monday's court case is of such a In the Numinbah area they are breeding a nature, as implied by the prosecutor's prize strain of Tam1vorths, whose progeny rema.rks, the suggestion of putting him in are being sent out to the farmers, who are gaol for six years, and flogging him, as thus able to improve their stock. As the made by members of the Queensland hon. member for Kelvin Grove said, over Women's Electoral League savours of little 30,000 trees have been planted out and some­ less brutality than the persecution meted thing like 22,000 trees that were developed out to its victims by the German Gestapo. from seedlings are being planted out. In Australians have been prone to boast of addition to that, the prisoners have carried their enlightenment, their culture, and their out experiments with different classes of agri­ intellectual superiority, but apparently culture. Gatton College has established an some of tl1em have a lot to learn of the experimental plot there in which maize and elementary concepts of humaneness. Six other crops have been grown to show what years' gaol and a flogging for a man who, can be done. When the call came in con­ after three and a-half years' service with nection with the food front, the prison farms the R.A.A.F., commits, in the absence of grew a quantity of vegetables that were sup­ his senses through drink, what may be plied to the army. I think the Numinbah regarded as an isolated crime! That is the farm has better soil than the Palen Creek Q.W.E.L. 's con0eption of justice. Its views area, and there they are able to grow virtually deserve to receive scant consideration from anything. the department to which they are to be The question of barristers' and solicitors' submitted.'' fees was raised by the hon. member for The prison system of Queensland is based Maree. If anyone has any complaint in con­ on humanitarianism and aims at the refol·ma­ nection with legal cha:-ges he can go before tion of the inmates of our prisons. the taxing officer, who will tax the fees and Mention was made by hon. members of the decide what is fair; and he has done that in work being done by our prison farms. They very many cases and considerably reduced the are run on the honour system. A person who charges made by barristers or solicitors. goes down there is on his honour; there are The hon. member for ~Windsor raised the no huts; there are no locks to the door-they question of a property that was sold. That are quite open-and the prisoners can walk is subject to the regulations of the Depart­ away any time they like. They are simply on ment of War Organisation of Industry and their honour to be of good behaviour while we have met with a difficulty in these cases. they are there. As the hon. member for \Ve can go only so far because, under those Kelvin Grove said, virtually all the men who landlord and tenant regulations, these matters have passed through the prison farm have ar!' under the authority of the Commonwealth gone back into society. They rehabilitated Government. Although they come before our themselves. Only two out of the large number courts they are conducted by the officers of who have been through the prison farms have the Commonwealth Crown Solicitor's depart­ returned there as prisoners; and those were ment a11d we have difficulty in ma'king any two old men who committed crimes as soon as regulations that would in any way conflict they get out because they get full of drink. with the regulations of the Commonwealth. When one of them goes out he says to Mr. There have been a num~ber of instances in Whitney, "I 'm going away, but it won't be which people bought houses and have been long before I am back to see you again.'' unable to get tenants out who have been in He has been there for many years and is one war service or whose husbands have been of the best carpenters and joiners we have had awa'y at the front. After having paid a in Queensland. deposit to the agent for the purchase of the house, such a person finds he cannot get JUr. Riordan: They do not want to lose possession. These are matters that are causing him. some concern, but I can assure the hon. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: We do not member that the case will not be lost sight want to lose him. He goes out and comes of. Mr. ,_McGregor has it in hand and if we back again, and he is on his honour while he can, either by regulation or in some other is there. As I said before, nearly all of way, remedy the difficulty we will do it. those who go out become good members of Vote (Department of Justice-Chief society again. Sometimes they are there Office) agreed to. because they have committed one breach of the law. Very often it is only the one who is COURTS OF PETTY SESSIO;)IS. found out who has to suffer the penalty. If we were found out and had to suffer for what The ATTORNEY -GENERAL (Hon. D. A. we do we should probably be just as bad as Gledson, Ipswich) (9.5 p.m.): I move- those people are. The prison farms were '' That £116,887 be granted for 'Courts established primarily for the purpose of help­ of Petty Sessions.' '' ing prisoners to rehabilitate themselves, and in addition they have been helpful to the dis­ This is a large vote, Mr. Brassington. Courts trict in which they have been established. At of Petty Sessions are situated all over the the Palen Creek farm they have a pure-bred State. A number of officers are involved, but Jersey herd, from which many of the sur­ we have dealt with them to a great extent rounding farmers have been able to build up on the Chief Office vote. These men are doing, Differential Geiling Prices [8 OcTOBER.] for Primary Products. 791 as I said previously, exceptionally good work and carrying out their duties in very a'dverse circumstances. V ate agreed to.

ELECTORAL REGISTRATION. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (9.6 p.m.): I move- '' That £36,297 be granted for 'Electoral Registration.' '' This vote is, of course, very much greater than that of last year. In fact, for last year it was the comparatively small a'mount oi' £9,549. The increase is accounted for by the fact that before the House meets again I suppose we shall be in the throes of a general election, and this increase is to meet that cost. V ate agreed to.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. D. A. Gledson, Ipswich) (9.7 p.m.): I move- '' That £2,060 be granted for 'Friendly Societies.' '' The amount is slightly less than that appro· priated last year. So far as the staff is concerned, this sub-department is in the same position as others. On account of the war it is carrying on with a junior staff instead of a senior staff. V ate agreed to. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 9.12 p.m.