Strathfield Railway Crossing. [22 DEc., 1898.] Privilege. 3981

lines have been utter failures. They are LAND AND INCOME TAX (DECLARATORY) worth nothing; but the Government have BILL. kindly come forward and taken them off Bill read the third time. the hands of the proprietors. I should lik.e to know what they are going to do SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT. with them. They are put down as repro­ Motion (Ron. J. HuGHES) agreed to: ductive works; but I should like to know That this House at its rising to-day do adjourn until \Vednesday next. how the Government are going to make them so. I understand that the Tarra­ House adjourned at 4·10 a.m. (Friday). wingee railway proprietors are selling it simply because they cannot turn it to good account, and that the rails, sleepers, and 3Legislatibe S!ssembl11. so on are not worth anything; while we know that the Rosehill railway has not 'l'hursday, 22 December, 1898. been a success. It runs very close to the northern railway, and has also to compete Privilege-Questions and Answers (Zoological Society­ The Agent·General-John Petersen-Springs at Kiama with the Parramatta River. Upon these --Maintenance Men-Bursaries : School of Mines­ jobs we are asked to expend £35,500. Tenders: Public Works-Public School, Alexandria There are other equally bad items in the -Painting Park Hailings-Long·service Medals-In· spectors of Accounts-Undressed Timber Duties­ bill, and many works put down as repro­ Public Works Department-Baudo Leasehold Area­ ductive which will give no returns upon Railway to Mulgoa-Stipendiary Magistrates--Richie the money expended upon them. Sheep Trucks-Diseases in Sheep Act-School-hours : The Hon. H. E. KATER: Does the Country Districts-Sunday Tmding-Petitions-Mar· garine Bill-Alleged Dummying-Municipal Subsidy Vice-President of the Executive Council -Greater Britain Exhibition-Parramatta-Singleton consider the McSharry case a reproductive Railway-Fish Markets-Increases to Civil Servants­ work, or the Australian Museum, or the Wan·en Bore-Homestead Selectors-Temora-Wyalon!( Railway-George-street Tramway-President of tbe National Art Gallery a reproductive work 1 Greater Britain Exhibition Committee-North Coast The Ron. J. HuGHES: The Art Gallery Harbour Works-Darling l>land-Papers-Road Con· is a permanent and a national work ! tmctors: Fines-Case of J. M. Swift-Improvements The Hon. H. E. KATER : What about on Crown Lands--Rabbit Bill-Navigation (Amend· ment) Bill-Limitation of Debate-Early-closing Bill­ the McSharry case 7 Gold-fields Reserves-Electoral Boundaries-Norfolk The Hon. J. HuGHES: I am afraid that Island -Special Purchase at Bega-Ministerial State­ is a permanent work, too ! ment (City Railway Extension -Federation)-The Rock to Green's Gunyah Railway Bill-Adjournment Question resolved in the affirmative. (Produce Market)-Wollongong Water Supply-Dubbo Bill read the second time, and reported to Coonamble Railway-Cobar-Wilcannia R.-'l.ilway­ from Committee without amendment; re­ Railway : Grenfell to Wyalong-River Darling-Public port adopted. Offices: Bridge, Younlj", and Phillip Streets- -Puhlic Offices in Phillip and Hunter Streets-Penitentiary Bill read the third time. and Prison for Females-Personal Explanation-Crown Lands Bill-Land and Income Tax (Declaratory) Bill STRATHFIELD RAILWAY-CROSSING (No. 2)-Koorawatha to Grenfell Railway Bill-Byrock BILL. to Brewarrina Railway Bill- The Rock to Green's The Ron. J. HUGHES rose to move: Gunyah Railway Bill-Thomas Suffield-Adjournment (Land Exchange : Interest on Overdue Rents)-Pro· That this bill be now read the seconcl time. rogat:on of Parliament. He said : This is a very small bill for a very important purpose. Most bon. mem­ bers, I dare say, know that the crossing at The 0LERK informed the House of the Strathfield is a level crossing at a junction. unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker, There is a great deal of traffic there, and it through illness. has become necessary for the Railway Com­ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER took the chair. missioners to take steps to erect an over­ head bridge and close the level crossing. The PRIVILEGE. bill simply gives them the requisite powers. Mr. NELSON (Sydney-Flinders) [3·31 ]: Question resolved in the affirmative. As a matter of privilege I have to call the Bill read the second time, and reported attention of the House to a question in from Committee without amendment; re­ which, I think, every bon. member here is port adopted. concerned. An article has been published Bill read the third time. commenting very severely upon hon. mem- 3982 Zoological Society. [ASSEMBLY.] John Petersen. bers, and in my opinion it; reflects very logical Society to private analysts 1 (2.) much indeed upon the honor of Parlia­ How long has the present superintendent ment. I should not trespass upon the occupied his position 1 (3.) Is the sec­ House in this matter, but I have waited retary a zoologist 1 ( 4.) Where did the patien!;ly, thinking that some hon. mem­ secretary obtain his knowledge of animals 1 ber of larger experience in such questions Mr. BRUNKER answercd,-(1.) 10 than I myself have would have dealt with guineas. (2.) About three and a half it. But finding that we have come to the years. (3 and 4.) It does not require a last st~tge of the life of this session, I person to be a zoologist, or to be possessed think it my duty to call the al;tention of of special qualifications, to understand the the House to a certain arl;icle which has duties of secretary to the Zoological Society; been published in a Syndey newspaper, but the present holder of the office is a which, as I say, reflects, in my opinion, gentleman of considerable attainments, and upon the credit of the House and upon is, in the opinion of the council, thoroughly the honor of members of Parliament. qualified to carry out the duties which he Mr. REID : What is the newspaper 1 is required to perform. Mr. NELSON: The article was pub­ lished in Tr11th on the 18th December. Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not think THE AGENT-GENERAL. anything which occurred on the 18th De­ Mr. WRIGHT (for Mr. CHANTER) asked cember can now be brought up as a matter the CoLONIAL TREASURER,-( 1.) Has the of privilege. "May" says: position of Agent-General been offered to A privilege matter may also be brought for-. Mr. Gould, ex-M.L.A., or to the Hon. J. ward without notice before the commencement H. Want, Attorney-General7 (2.) Has it of public business, and is considered immediately been accepted by either of these gentle­ on the assumption that the matter is Lrought forward without delay, and that its immediate men 7 (3.) If not, will he state who is to consideration is essential to the dignity of the obtain the position before Parliament goes House.. in to recess 1 This matter has not been brought forward Mr. REID answered,-! have already without delay, and I do not think its dis­ made a statement to the House, which cussion would lead to the dignity of this ·shows that there cannot possibly be any­ House. This House, moreover, cannot thing in the questions asked. punish persons outside who write articles. I rule, therefore, that the matter to which the hon. member refers is not one of pri­ JOHN PETERSEN. vilege and that he cannot proceed with it. Mr. WRIGHT (for Mr. McLAUGHLIN) Mr. REID : The House has been sitting asked the MINISTER OF JusTICE,-(!.) Is since Monday,so that there has been ample he aware that at the last court of quarter opportunity. sessions, Kempsey, Mr. Judge Docker sen­ Mr. DEPUTY·SPEAKER : It is within the tenced one John Petf:lrsen to twelve months' right of hon. members to bring forward a imprisonment with hard labour, to com­ matter of privilege at any time. mence at thE> expiration of a sentence he Mr. NELSON: Then, why not now 1 was then undergoing, for allPged contempt Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Because delay of court·in refusing to become a Crown has taken place. The matter is five days witness and give Queen's evidence 1 (2.) old. The House has sat upon three of Is it the practice for a chairman of quarter those days. I am merely following the sessions to order imprisonment with hard rule of Parliament in the ruling I have labour, to commence at a future date, for given, and I hope hon. members will up­ alleged contempt of court 1 (3.) Can he hold the Chair in this decision. mention any case where even the Supreme Mr. NELSON: I accept the ruling of Mr. Court has awarded such punishment 1 ( 4.) Deputy-Speaker. If the sentence is illegal, will he take steps for the immediate liberation of Petersen~ ZOOLOGICAL SOCIETY. (5.) What term of the sentence has been Mr. T. BROWN (for Mr. DACEY) asked served 1 (6.) Assuming that the judge the CoLONIAL SECRETARY,-(1.) What is had power to make the order referred to, the total amount paid away by the Zoo- in view of the severe nature of the punish- [ Mr. Nelson. Springs at Kiarna. [22 DEc., 1898.] lenders: Public Works. 3983 ment for the alleged offence, will he take of horse-feed. The question as to allow­ steps to have the prisoner now liberated 7 ance given in the hon. member's district Mr. C. A. LEE answered,-The matter will receive my considerati()n. referred to in these questions is under consideration. BURSARIES : SCHOOL OF MINES. Mr. BENNETT asked the SECRETARY SPRINGS AT KIAMA. FOR MINES AND AGRICULTURE,-(1.) Re Dr. ROSS asked the MINISTER OF PuBLIC bursaries for the School of Mines, are the INSTRUCTION,-Will he obtain from the subjects for competitive examination.for Government Astronomer his views, or some the bursaries as follows: -(I) MathPmatics, information, as to the cause of springs namely, (a) arithmetic, including the ele­ breaking out and commencing to run at ments of mensuration, 150 marks. (b) Kiama and other places in the interior algebra, including progressions, the bino­ during the present protracted drought, mial theorem for a positive index and and how,this peculiar phenomenon is pro­ the properties and use of logarithms, 150 duced in dry seasons~ marks. (c) Geometry-Euclid, books i-iv, Mr. HOGUE answered,-! will request vi, xi, propositions 1-21, with easy deduc­ the Government Astronomer to furnish a tions, 100 marks. (d) Trigonometry, 150 report upon this matter. marks. (u) Latin, 150 marks. (m) Not more than one of the following :-(a) MAINTENANCE MEN. French, .150 marks. (b) German, 150 Mr. BENNETT asked the SECRETARY marks. The bursar will be required to FOR PuBLIC WoRKS,-(1.) Whether he matriculate, and to commence attendance is aware that some maintenance men, upon the Scho.ol of Mines classes imme­ who have to keep 20 miles of road in re­ diately after the award of the bursary to pair, have to provide a horse to enable him. (2.) The examinations being so severe, them to travel the road at their own cost 1 is there no danger of excluding the sons (2.) Is he in favour of flying gangs of of miners and people in ordinary circum­ roadmen being sent to localities to con­ stances in life. struct culverts and carry out road work Mr. COOK answered,-(1.) Yes. (2.) in localities where there are many unem­ The subjects are those which a student is ployed workmen? (3.) Is he in favour of required by the University by-laws to pass all road :work being let by tender or to before admission t.o the classes of the local men, instead of being carried out by Mining 8chool ; and unless he passed an flying gangs 7 (4.) Is he aware that main­ examination of that standard he would tenance men who provide a horse and cart not be capable of understanding the lec­ to repair the road are only allowed 2s. 6d. tures in the subsequent course of instruc­ per day for same; will he favour an in­ tion at the Mining School. crease) Mr. YOUNG answered,-(1.) Where a maintenance man is in charge of a long TENDERS : PUBLIC WORKS. length of road, cost of shifting camp is Mr. ARCHER asked the SECRETARY allowed. Men who use horses for their FOR PuBLIC WoRKs,-(1.) How many own convenience in riding to and from tenders 'have been called for works this work receive no allowance for this. (2.) year which, owing to a considerable excess It is the custom to use flying gangs only of the department's estimate, have to be when it is clear the work to be done can re-tendered fod (2.) Does not the faulty be carried out to greater advantage in this estimation of works by the department way than by contract, and the gangs are cause considerable loss of money and time then made up of picked men. (3.) As far to contractors1 (3.) Is the lowest tenderer as practicable, the work is done by tender. compensated for such loss ~ ( 4.) What is ( 4.) Maintenance men are not expected to the number of contracts for the year 189& provide a horse and cart for the repair of and 1897 on which extras have been in­ roads ; but when the services of a horse curred~ (5.) What are the amounts and and cart are required, the allowance causes for such extras 1 (6.) Similar in­ varies from 2s. 6d. per ·day upwards, formation for the year 1897-98 ~ (7.) according to the conditions as to the cost Why are certain senior professional officers 3984: Public School, .Alexandria. [ASSEMBLY.] Undressed Timber Duties. of the Government Architect's Department are eligible, the Secretary of State for the doing ordinary clerical and book work which Colonies intimated on the lOth August, can be done under their supervision by a 1897, that this question was about to be junior clerk 1 considered by a joint departmental com­ Mr. YOUNG answered,-Thisinforma­ mittee of the War Office and the Colonial tion can be prepared and laid upon the Office, and that a further communication table of the House in the form of a return would be made. A remindet· on this subc if moved for in the usual manner. ject was sent last July to the Imperial Government. ( 4.) Yes ; if questions PUBLIC SCHOOL, ALEXANDRIA. referred to in answer (3) are satisfactory. Mr. ANDERSON asked the MINISTER INSPECTORS OF ACCOUNTS. OF PuBLIC INSTRUCTION,-(1.) Has he taken any ste·ps to have plans and specifi­ Mr. S. E. LEES (for Mr. J ESSEP) asked the CoLONIAL TREASURER,-(!.) From cations prepared for the proposed boys' what sources are inspectors of accounts, and girls' school at Alexandria? (2.) If departmental accountants, or other exami­ not, will he give instructions to the clerk ners of accounts appointed (2.) If per­ of :works of his department to do so with­ 1 out further delay 1 sons are appointed to such positions from the clerical ranks of the public service, are Mr. HOGUE answered,-Plans and specifications of the proposed primary they compelled by the Public Service Board, school buildings at Alexandria will be pre­ by examination or otherwise, to demon­ strate their fitness for such important posi­ pared without unnecessary delay. tions 1 (3.) If not, will he, in view of the importance of such officers' duties, bring PAINTING PARK RAILINGS. under the notice of the Public Service Mr. WILLIS (for Mr. D. DAVIs) asked Board the desirability of testing future the MINISTER OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION,­ applicants for such appointments in their (1.) How many men are employed on the kr:owledge of national finance, banking, cleaning and painting park railings? (2.) and cognate subjects 1 How many gangers are employed in charge Mr. REID answered,-When vacancies of the men 1 (3.) What pay do the men arise, appointments are always made from receive per day 1 ( 4:.) What pay do the within the service, if there are suitable gangers receive per day 1 persons to fill the positionR. If it is neces­ Mr. HOGUE answered,-The cleaning sary to appoint a person from outside the and painting of the park railways is being service, special examinations and inquiries carried out under the supervision of the are held to test the suitability of the Works Department. These questions applicants for the positions applied for. should, therefore, be addressed to the Secretary for Public Works. UNDRESSED TIMBER DUTIES. • Mr. SAMUEL SMITH asked the CoLO­ LONG·SER VICE MEDALS. NIAL TREASURER,-(!.) Is it a fact that Mr. O'CON OR asked the CoLONIAL the Customs Duties Act of 1895 enacted TREASURER,-(!.) Did the home Govern­ that the duty on undressed timber should ment some years ago intimate that medals remain in force till 30th June, 18961 (2.) would be awarded to volunteers for long Is it a fact that, contrary to the provisions service 1 (2.) Have these medals been of this act, the Collector of Customs per­ awarded to members of the volunteer mitted two large shipments of undressed forces in South Australia and Victoria 1 coopers' pickets to be landed in Sydney, (3.) Why have these medals been withheld duty free, during January, 1896? (3.) from the volunteer forces of New South Did Mr. Henry Dose, of Pyrmont, write Wales 1 ( 4:.) Will he take steps to provide to the Under-Secretary for Finance and for the distribution of these medals among Trade, on 4th August, 1896, informing New South W:.tles volunteers? him that, at the time of this illegal action Mr. REID answered,-(1.) Yes. (2.) on the part of the Collector of Customs, the Not known. (3.) Pending the Imperial greater portion of three shipments o£ these Government deciding as to whether those pickets, on which he (Mr. Dose) had a serving under a partial-payment system short time.Previously paid duty amounting [Mr. .A.rclte?._ Public Works Department. [22 DEc., 1898.] Richie Sheep :rrucks. 3985

to £123 15s., was thereby rendered un­ survey of the Bando leasehold area, county saleable at remunerative rates 1 ( 4.) Will Pottinger, been completed ; if so, when 1 he place 'on the estimates for next year a (2.) When will the lands embraced in the sum of £100 to reimburse 1\'lr. Dose for survey above referred to be open for settle­ the loss suffered by him through the action ment? of the Collector of Customs in removing the Mr. CARRUTHERS answered,-(1.) aforesaid duty six mo11ths prior to the date The completion of the survey has not yet fixed by the Customs Dllties Act 1 been reported, but efforts are being made Mr. REID answered,-(1.) Yes. (2.) to expedite the work. (2.) A date cannot No. Pickets were free of duty from 31st at present be fixed, but in any case the December, 1895, being specially mentioned land will not be available for application in schedule A in the tariff of 1892; were before the 1st March next. not mentioned in schedule A in the tariff of 1895; and were free under the tariff in RAILWAY TO MULGOA. J-anuary, 1896. (3.) Yes; but was in­ Mr. S. E. LEES asked the SECRETARY formed that the duty was paid in October FOR PuBLIC WonKs,-In introducing the and November of 1895, when properly raifway policy of the Government before chargeable with duty, and that a refund the close of the session, will he give the could not be made. (4.) As the pickets proposed line of railway from Liverpool to were properly charged for duty at the time Mulgoa has favourable consideration, with of importtttion, there is no valid claim for a view to its inclusion 1 refund. M:r. YOUNG answered,-I am sorry to PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. be obliged to inform the hon. member that Mr. S. E. LEES (for Mr. E. M. CLAHK) the consideration of this line must stand asked the CoLONIAL TREASUREH,-(1.) over until next session. What officers of the Public Works Depart­ ment have applied during this year for six STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES. months' leave of absence 1 (:.!.) What ap­ Mr. S. E. LEES asked ·the MINISTER plications have been granted; and why 1 OF JusTICE,-(1.) ·when considering the ( 3.) What is the length of permanent ser­ question of appointing stipendiary magis­ vice of the officers so favoured 1 ( 4.) Are trates, will those already filling such posi­ the groundsforgrantingsuch leave stronger tions be considered with a view to promo­ than those on which similar leave has been tion 1 · (2.) Also, if there be any acting refused other civil servants retired; if so, stipendiary magistrates, will their claims what are they? for promotion or permanent appointment Mr. YOUNG answered,--( I and 2.) An be considered 1 officer, J-ohn Barr, applied for twelve Mr. C. A. LEE answered,-The claims months' leave of absence without pay, for promotion of the officers referred to in which was granted. Another officer, G. these questions will recei \·e due considera­ J. Oakeshott, made application for six tion. mbnths' leave-four with pay and two RICHIE SHEEP TRUCKS. without--and wa.s granted six weeks' leave with pay and the remainder without pay. Mr. T. BROWN (for Mr. DAQEY) asked The former officer required his leave for the CoLONIAL TREASURER,-(1.) With re­ the purpose of travelling and studying in ference to Mr. Dacey's previous question, England, and the !aLter to attend to urgent respecting the structural defects in the family matters in England. (3.) John Richie sheep trucks, is it a correct inference that the cost of such "minor faults" was Barr, 1 year 9~" months; G. J. Oakeshott, 3 years. ( 4.) I am not aware what appli­ charged to the contractor, as well as cost of cations were refused to which the hon. replacing faulty axle brasses? (2.) If not member refers, and, consequently, canno't RO char·ged, who was respon;;ible, and how answer this quf'stion. do they arise? (3.) Is he aware that stockownPrR have suffered injury and loss BANDO LEASEHOLD AREA. from the use of leaky sheep trucks? Mr. WRIGHT (for Mr. GooDWIN) asked Mr. REID answered,-(1.) I am in­ the SECRETAHY FOR LANDs,-(1.) Has the formed the contractor was not charged 12 y 3986 Diseases in Sheep Act. [ASSEMBLY.] Petitions.

with the cost of the minor faults referred offenders against this law on any Sunday to, as he was not responsible for the altera­ while patrolling George-street, King-street, tion in the top floors of the vans. ( 2.) or any other of the principal streets in the The original drawing provided for a tongued city or suburbs, or in the country towns? and grooved floor, but the officer in charge (2.) Has he given instructions for the con­ of the work fouud it would be an advan­ stables not to take notice of such breaches tage to have the boards rabbeted. It is of the law in most cases, while examples pointed out that the vans in question were are being made in individual cases7 (3.) of a new design, and have answered satis­ Does section 10 of the Sydney Police Act, factorily. As pointed out previously, or secLion 10 of the Towns Police Act, minor defects also arose through the tim­ contain any provision for the law being ber not being thoroughly seasoned. (3.) administered in a " reasonable manner; The commissioners are not aware of loss on the other hand, are not the said laws and injury being occasioned as represented. imperative and binding on all alike, and do not "permit or suffer any house, shop, DISEASES IN SHEEP ACT. or store, or other place therein to be open Mr. WRIGHT (for Mr. CRUICKSHANK) on that day for the purpose of trade or asked the CoLONIAL TREASURER,-Will he dealing" 1 ( 4.) Is it "reasonable" that have full information made public as to some persons should be punished for doing how the money collected under the Dis­ what others are allowed to do with im­ eases in Sheep Act is expended, as Ap­ punity 7 (5.) Will he cause the said laws pendix IV in the Annual Report of the to be repealed, or else see that they are Chief Inspector of Stock for the year 1897 administered to all persons alike? is not satisfactory 7 Mr. BRUNKER answered,-(1.) No Mr. COOK answered,-The full infor­ difficulty is experienced by the police in mation showing the expenditure of moneys discovering persons engaged in Sunday collected under the Diseases in Sheep Acts, trading. (2 and 3.) No. (4.) The magis­ for the year 1897, was laid upon the table trates, by their decisions, evidently think of the House on the 20th October last. that certain businesses, such as retailers of fruit, milk, cakes, and non-intoxicating drinks, are not unreasonably carried on on SCHOOL-HOURS : COUNTRY DISTRICTS. Sundays, and are in some cases a public Mr. ·wRIGHT (for Mr. CRUICKSHANK) convenience, but that no necessity exists asked the MINISTER OF PUBLIC lNSTRUC­ for other shops to be kept open for the TION,-Owing to the present wave of heat sale of goods not required on Sundays. in some country districts, will he, when The G-overnment cannot control magis­ the parents and teachers approve, allow trates' decisions. (5.) The law certainly the alteration of the school-hours to 8 till requires revision in some respects, and the­ 11 ·30 in the morning, and from 3 till 5 in question will be considered. the afternoon 1 Mr. HOGUE answered,-! cannot see PETITIONS. my way to accede to this request. The Mr. REY~IOND presented a petition from hours of instruction are fixed by the regu­ William Henry Monaghan, stating jhat he lations, and I do not think it advisable to had, about nine years ago, made applica­ make any alteration in the daily routine tion to conditionally purchase 300 acres of authorised. Under regulation ll 0, school land, situated on Flagstone Creek, land may commence at either 9 or 9·30 o'clock district of Parkes, and paid as deposit a.m. thereon the sum of £30 sterling ; that, SUNDAY TRADING. subsequently, the lessee on whose run the Mr. COPELAND asked the CoLONIAL land was situated selected the same land, SECRF.TARY,-Referring to his reply to Mr. and when the applications came before the Copeland's question on 15th instant, re local land board the name of the lessee Sunday trading, wherein he states that was called before that of your petitioner ; "the law has been and will be enforced as that your petitioner was allotted other far as practicable and reasonable," -(1.) land of very inferior nature ; but refused Will he be good enough to state whether it, and his deposit money was therefore the police find it impracticable to discover confiscated ; and praying the House to [-111r. Reid. Margarine Bill. [22 DEc., 1898.] Greater Br·itain Exhibition. · 3987

take the premises into consideration, and inquiries as to what has been done under grant relief to the petitioner. the commission, and if it is necessary to Mr. RBY~IOND presented a petition from revive it it will be revived. Of course, the Michael Madden, stating that he had, about commission cannot proceed unless the nine years ago, made application to condi­ parties choose to bring some evidence be­ tionaily purchase 500 acres, and to condi­ fore it. · No evidence has been adduced tionally lease 7 50 acres of land, situated before the commission, and no material on Flagstone Creek, land district of Parkes, has been supplied t.o the commissioner to and paid £50 deposit and £6 5s. as rent, enable him to proceed with his inquiry. respectively; that, subsequently, the lessee on whose run the land was situated selected MUNICIPAL SUBSIDY. the Bame land, and when the applications Mr. NOBBS : I desire to ask the Pre­ came before the local land board the name mier whether, bearing in mind that a num• of the lessee was called before that of your ber of municipalities are giving work to petitioner, the land allotted to him, and their unemployed at this season of the your petitioner's money confiscated; and year, will he take into consideration the praying the House to take action in the advisableness of granting the promised matter, and grant relief to the petitioner. subsidy of 2s. 6d. in the £ to the various Petitions received. municipalities 1 Mr. REID: I never promised a subsidy MARGARINE BILL. of 2s. 6d. in the £ in any absolute way. I Mr. ALEXANDER CAMPBELL: I have always said that when the state of wish to ask the Colonial Treasurer what the finances permitted it, I considered that has become of the Margarine Bill he pro­ the claim of the municipalities for a special mised to carry through Parliament this endowment should rank amongst the first ~ession1 demands upon the liberality of Parliament. Mr. REID : I regret to say it is lying I think so now ; but, unfortunately, with peacefully side by side with some other the present state of the financrs, and with bills. · the refusal to grant .certain additional re­ ALLEGED DUMMYING. venue I have asked for, I find it difficult Mr. WILLIS : I desire to ask the Sec­ to undertake any obligations beyond those retary for Lands a question without notice. the law casts upon me. Is it not a fact that some months ago a royal commission was appointed to inquire GREATER BRITAIN EXHIBITION. into some alleged dummying in the west? Mr. MOORE : I desire to ask a ques~ Is it not a fact also that the names of cer­ tion of the Premier with regard to the tain bon. members were mentioned in that G'reater Britain Exhibition. Persons have connection? What has become of the royal been asked to send exhibits to this exhibi­ commission-is it dead or is it alive? I£· tion, and preparations are now going on. it is alive, will the hon. gentleman make In view of the vote given the other day, the House and the country a promise that is it the intention of the Premier to go on hon. members who have been slandered in with the exhibition; if not, will he announce this matter will have a chance of fully the fact as soon as possible, so that these vindicating themselves before the royal preparations may be stopped? commission during the recess 1 Mr. REID : As announced in the news­ Mr. CAHR UTHERS : It is a fact that papers the morning after the vote referred a royal commission was issued to Dr. R.· :to was arrived at, the Government, carry­ M. Sly to inquire into certain allegations ing out the desire of the House, as sho~"~Cn with regard to dummying in the western by the division on the item, resolved not division. That commission was given to to proceed any further with this exhibi­ Dr. Sly for him to hold the necessary in­ tion, and that resolution is not likely to quiry. I understood the parties were com­ be altered. It is in obedience to a vote municated with and informed of the issue which was arrived at in Committee. But, of the commission. After that stage the of course, if this matter has been going matter, so far as the Lands Department on, I cannot very well issue an immediate is concerne~, is in oblivion. I will make notice cancelling the committee, because 39ss· Singleton Railway. [ ASSEMBLY.l Increases to Civil Servants. there are certain things that must be such cases where the House has affirmed wound up, and things returned to the ex­ an increase to officers whose salaries are hibitors, and so on; so that it is impos­ over £400 a year 1 As a case in point - sible to issue a notice at once. But it is Mr: B,E ID : I do not think it is neces­ to be understood that the committee will sary to mention a case. I think I can only be kept in existence in ordet' to undo give an answer which is satisfactory to all that has been done. the hon. member. Mr. MOORE : Will the hon. gentleman Mr. RosE : I have another question to see that the notices sent to the exhibitors ask! will be cancelled as soon as possible, so Mr. REID : Let us take one question that the preparations may be stopped? at a time. I intended to make an explana­ Mr. REID : Certainly. Of course the tion to the House if the hon. gentleman news of this matter will be spread over had not asked a question on the subject he the colony ; but, in addition to that, we mentioned, because, owing to an error in will send out notices to every one who has the newspaper report, which we can quite been communicated with, intimating that understand, considering that it was written it is not the intention of the Government at a quarter to 7 o'clock yesterday morn­ to proceed with the exhibition. ing after a long sitti!).g, it was made to appear that I promised the hon. gentleman opposite that no increases in salaries over PARRAMATTA-SINGLETON RAILWAY. £400 would be given to the offi0ers. I Mr. O'CONOR : I desire to ask the have got a rough proof of the Hansard Secretary for Public ·works whether in report, which shows that the hon. member framing the rail way policy of the Govern­ for The Hume asked me this question : ment, he will give the proposed line from llfr. Lyne wished to ask the Colonial Trea­ Parramatta to Singleton favourable con­ surer whether the item of £!,000 for the Public sideration with a view to its inclusion in Service Board included any increase of salaries the policy? to the officers of that board ? Mr. YOUNG : I cannot undertake to We · were on that matter only, not a do that this :;ession. general increase, but any increase in the Public Service Board. Ron. members will FISH MARKETS. recollect that I had to acknowledge to the Mr. FERRIS : I desire to ask the Colo­ Committee of Supply that the estimates of nial Treasurer whether he will be good that department were put in a most un­ enough to appoint an inspector to attend satisfactory way on the estimates-in-chief; the fish markets on Sunday morning, and and, instead of the details of the officers' to inspect the bait which is disposed of at salaries being given, as in other cases, Circular Quay, and prevent people from there was simply a lump sum of £4,000 being summoned before the courts 1 for the " reorganisation of the public ser­ vice." I read to the Committee a list of Mr. REID : Among my multifarious the officers and their salaries last year and duties and responsibilities, the care of the this year, from which it appeared that no fish, especially bait, on Circular Quay is not increase was included ill this item of included. The fish markets are under the £4,000. But still that was a very hurried control of the municipal council-! have statement, and I promised the hon. mem­ nothing whatever to do with them. ber for The Hume that I would make thorough inquiry to perfectly satisfy my­ INCREASES TO CIVIL SERVANTS. self that there is no increase in a salary of Mr. ROSE : I wish to ask the Premier £400 on that estimate ; and, if there is a question about an answer which he ga\'e one, it shall not be paid for the reason that to thehon. memberfor TheHume. The right the Committee of Supply had no oppor­ hon. gentleman is reported to have said tunity to deal with the increase. Conse­ that he would assure the Committee that quently, under the general understanding no public officer receiving a salary of over which was arrived at, I certainly could not £400 would receive any increase under the give an increase, under the circumstances, estimates. I wish to know from the right on an estimate in which the officers were hon. gen.tleman if this is to hold good in not fully stated, and an opportunity given [M1·. Reid. Warren Bore. [22 DEc., 1898.] Temora- Wyalong Railway. 3989

to the Committee either to give or refuse has any objection before the House is pro­ the increase. My statement was entir~ly rogued to lay upon the table the cor­ confined to the one department, under the respondence between his departm~>nt and special circumstances of the case that the the Warren town council in reference to estimates for that department were not set the Warren bore, and some allegations out properly on the estimates-in-chief. I made about the contractor as to whether 1 wish emphatically to state that every in­ he was on granite or rock 1 crease voted by the Committee of Supply Mr. COOK: I am not aware of the will be paid other than an increase in this nature of the allegations ; but I will look department, about which the Committee into the matter at once, and, if pcssible, had not propet· information. I will comply with the bon. member's Mr. J. C. WATSON: Does not the request. hon. member recollect asking the Commit· tee to indicate whether they would take HOMESTEAD SELECTORS. £300 or £400 as the minimum in respect Mr. HAYES : I wish to ask the Secre­ to general salaries, and not in respect to tary for Lands whether he will take into the Public Service Board? I have a dis­ consideration the position of the home­ tinct recollection of an understanding stead selectors who have lost their crops having been arrived at. · this year and are unable to pay their rents. Mr. REID : £300 was mentioned first, There is a· provision in the Land Act by and then there was a general desire to which ordinary selectors get a remission make it £400 ! · of their rents ; hut as the provision does Mr. J. C. WATSON: So I understood. not apply to homestead selectors, I would All the hon. member wanted at that mo­ ask the hon. gentleman whether he will ment was an indication from the Commit­ take into consideration t.he necessity of re­ tee as to which w:as to be taken as the mitting the rent for the current year in minimum, and I think he suggested that those cases where there has been a total we might have a vote on some salary loss· of crops 1 below £400, so as to test the feeling of Mr. CARRUTHERS: All cases will thP. Committee. be taken into consideration whether they Mr. LYNE : So we had ! are homestead selectors, homestead lessees, Mr. J. C: WATSON : ,Just so; and now conditional purchasers, or squatters. So I understand the right bon. gentleman to far as the Government are concerned we say that there was no understanding in intend to be merciful to those who are the Committee as to increases of salaries enduring such a terrible drought. below £400. Mr. REID: I never made any such TEMORA-WYALONG RAILWAY. statement. I simply say that it is for the Mr. BARNES: I have a motion on the Committee of Supply to vote as they like business-paper asking the House to affirm on these estimates, and no matter what that a proposal to extend the railway line understanding may ha,·e been attempted to from Temora to Wyalong via Barmedman he effected, if the Committee by a deliberate should be referred to the Public Works vote chose to give an officer an increase, Committee. As the Public Works Com­ in spite of any understanding the officer is mittee will be going down to inquire into honestly entitled to it, and will get it. the Grenfell-W yalong railway proposal, Mr. ROSE : Do I understand from the will the Secretary for Public Works em­ right hon. gentleman that in any case power them to obtain evidence on the where the Committee of Supply have voted Temora to Wyalong railway proposal? an increase on the estimates prepared by Mr. YOUNG: I can only inform the the Public Service Board he is going to hon. member that the Public Works Com­ undo that 1 mittee are absolutely beyond my control. :Nir. REID: No; the officer will get the I have no right to instruct them, or to salary voted. suggest to them even what they should do. WARREN BORE. Mr. A. CHAPMAN : Cannot the hon. Mr. WILLIS : I wish to ask the Sec­ member direct them by a resolution of the retary for Mines and Agriculture if he House 1· · . 3990 Geo1·ge-street Tramway. [ASSEMBLY.] North Coast IIarbour Works.

Mr. YOUNG : I do not think so. The work which he has done in connection committee have statutory powers which the with the subject of old-age pensions and House has no right to interfere with. charities, and which is in the rP.port that has Mr. A. CHAPMAN : The hon. member been published, would give him the highest could interfere by resolution ! ·credit. for the labour bestowed on that work,· which I l1ave good reason to believe did GEORGE-STREET TRAMWAY. injuriously affect his J>.ealth, which has not Mr. A. H. GRIFFITH: I wish to ask been of the best, as I happ0n to know, for the Secretary for Public \Vorks a question some years past. with regard to the George-street tramway -first, if the laying of the tram-line is NORTH COAST HARBOUR WORKS. done by contract; second, if he is aware Mr. LYNE : I see by the morning that already there are a number of serious papers that the Legislative Council last subsidences in the new wooden blocks be­ night rejected the bill for the construction tween the rails, indicating that the founda­ of harbour works at the Tweed River. I tion is faulty~ Further, if it is contract understand that the Government do not work, will he have the matter looked into intend to proceed with the other measures before he takes over the work 1 dealing with works on the northern rivers. Mr. YOUNG : The blocks between the That being so, I want to know if the Min­ rails for a distance of 18 inches on each ister intends to go on with those works in side are being laid by the contractor as the face of the fact that the Government part of his contract. The hon. member will not proceed with the measures because mentioned this matter two or three weeks they fear thPy will be rejected 1 ago, and I made inquiries. The reports Mr. REID: As far as this question is which came to me do not bear out the hon. concerned, I do not know that I can really member's statement. I was assured at the deal with it, because it relates mainly to time that these blocks were being laid in the business of the Government in the a thoroughly satisfactory manner, and that other Chamber. At present, I have not there were no such subsidences as the hon. been advised that the bills a1;e going to be member spoke of. I will have the matter dropped. In the pressure of business that further inquired into in the light of what may happen; but I have not been so in­ the hon. member has said. If there has formed. With reference to these works been any mistake made, the contractor is generally, it is not likely that the Go­ responsible, and I will take care that it is vernment would go on with works supplies rectified. Perhaps the hon. member will for which have been absolutely refused, mention the exact places in writing. with this reservation that if any work Mr. A. H. GRIFFITH : I will do so. which has been begun under the authority of Parliament, that is of both house!', is in PllESIDENT OF THE GREATER BRITAIN such a state that the expenditure already EXHIBITION COMMITTEE. incurred would be thrown away or preju­ Mr. GILLIES: I wish to ask the Pre­ diced if some measures were not taken to mier· a question as to whether he is aware preserve them, I apprehend both houses that the health of the hon. member for would justify the Government in incurring Paddington has completely broken down the expenditure which would prevent such because of the work and worry in connec­ damage to work upon which puulic money tion with his position as president of the has been spent. But as for any new depar­ committee of the Greater Britain Exhibi­ tures, such as going on with an extension tion~ If so, will he consider the advisa­ of those works beyond the preservation of bility of compensating him for his trouble the works already undertaken, I . do not and anxiety during the past few weeks~ think the Government would be justified Mr. REID : I scarcely appreciate the in such a course. question of the hon. member, unless it is Mr. LYNE: When I put the question a serious one, in view of the f1tct that the it did not strike me at the moment that bon. men1ber at whom it is aimed is not the business really related to the other in the House, and is actually not well. Chamber. With reference to the reply But I wish to say, in reference to that hon. given, what I mean by the question is this: gentleman, that those who have seen the If a little expenditure is required to pro- [31r. Young. North Coast Harbonr Works. [22 DEc., 1898.] Papers. 3991 teet the edge of a bank or anythi11g of that scheme as if we were sure to get a vote in kind no one would object ; but if the Go· favour of those bills. Of course, I cannot vernment do not go on with these measures foresee any such emergency at present. I presume they will not proceed with the works contemplated in the measnre which DARLING ISLAND. has been rejected, or in those not proceeded }fr. L YNE : I desire to ask the Secre. with in the Upper House. tary for Public Works whether work is Mr. REID : Supply has been refused 1 being proceeded with at Darling Island at Mr. LYNE: I have been informed by the present time without the authority of a high authority that the Government do the Public Works Committee, and, if so, not intend to proceed in the Council with whether he will stop that work until he the other measures. obtains the necessary authority 1 I ask Mr. CRICK: Who is the high authority 7 the question, because I have been informed to-day that such is the case. I am told Mr. L YNE : I am not prepared to give that the works will cost a large sum of the information. money, and that they are being proceeded Mr. REID: It was not an official con­ with in sections underthe value of £20,000; versation, was it 1 Mr. YOUNG : Before moving a foot in Mr. LYNE: I do not know. I simply the matter, before expending a shilling asked what was going to be done. I under­ upon these particular works, I took the stood that there is a doubt whether these precaution of getting the best legal advice measures will be proceeded with, and that in the colony-not only that of the Attor­ they are not to be proceeded with, because ney-General, because it might be said that the Council is inclined to reject them. he was likely to be biassed, but also that of 'That beina so, I want to know whether if SirJulian Salomons. I consulted with these the measu~es are not proceeded with the gentlemen as to thenecessityforputtingthis Government will go on spending the money work before the Public Works Committee, which it seems they are afraid to ask the and I have their opinion, whatever it may Council to allow them to spend. be worth-and most persons will think it Mr. CRICK : I should like to ask upon worth a good deal-that in the case of that what right has the Government to this particular work it was not necessary spend a shilling untiHhe bill becomes law? that it should be referred to the Public I cannot understand how they dare to start Works Committee. . It is impossible for spending money on any of these large me to reproduce their advicefrom memory, works. but I have stated the effect of it. Mr. REID : As to some of these public 1\'Ir. LYNE: Why is it not necessary that works, we have advances on hand which the work should go to the Public Works both houses have voted for the purposes of Committee? the works. As to these halances, if we 'Mr. YOUNG: It is impossible for me to consider it in the public interest we will say at this moment, speaking from memory. spend them, and for spending that we have Mr. REID: We willlaythe opinion upon parliamentary warrant. As to the expen­ the table! diture not authorised, the Government Mr. YOUNG : If the hon. member de­ cannot indulge in such expenditure unless sires to see the opinion, he is welcome to under very special circumstances, for which it. We will lay it upon the table. we would be responsible to the House. Mr. LYNJ' : I hope that will be done ! Under ordinary circumstances we have no right to spend any money not voted ·by PAl'ERS. Parliament. If we do it is under a sense Ministers laid upon the table the follow­ of responsibility to the House, and we . ing papers :- must be prepared to justify ourselves to Amended by-laws of St. Andrew's College, the House ; but we are not likely to take University of Sydney. that course unless there is a very strong Return to an order, made on 22ncl November, reason of emergency, something to show 1898,-" Penny Postage System." . in fact that we must do something to pro­ Notification of resumption, under the Pubhc \Yorks Act of 1888, of land for improving the tect what has been already done. \Ve traffic on the railway from Milson's Point to would not be justified in going on with a Hornsby Junction. 3992 Road Contractors: Fines. [ASSEMBLY.] Navigation Bill.

Amended regulation No. 324, under the Crown lands, taken under section 3 for settle­ Lands Acts. · ment. I desire to know whether the hon. Return to an order, made on 23rd November, 1898,-" Awards for Shark-killing." gentleman proposes to take any further By-law of the borough of Richmond. steps to sustain the Crown ownership of Referred to the Printing Committee. the improvements, and if so, what steps 7 ~Ir. CARRUTHERS : I cannot bear in mind the particulars of the case to which ROAD CONTRACTORS : FINES. the hon. mem berrefers. There are thousands Mr. A. CHAPMAN: I wish to ask the of such cases coming before me in the Secretary for Public Works, without notice, Lands Department. whether his attention has been called to the fact that unmerciful fines are being imposed upon road contractors all through RABBIT BILL. the country, and whether he will extend Mr. T. FITZPATRICK : I wish to some little mercy to t,hese men, especially know when the Secretary for Lands in­ at Christmas-Lime 7 tends to introduce the long-promised rabbit bill? Mr. YOUNG : I can only say that Mr. CARRUTHERS : During next every case liable to fine is dealt with upon session the long-promised rabbit bill will its merits. I have had a number of com­ be introduced, and it will rest with hon. plaints from hon. members that work in members to assist in passing it into law. their particular districts has not been car­ ried out satisfactorily, and, in some in­ stances, in consequence of delay on the NAVIGATION (AMENDMENT) BILL. part of the contractor, sums of money Mr. W. M. HUGHES : I wish to ask voted for these works have had to lapse. the hon. gentleman at the head of the Go­ Under those circumstances, hon. members vernment, without notice, if he is aware n.re very anxious that I should be hard that the Representative of the Government upon the contractors, and should keep in the other House agreed readily last night them np to time. It has been almost in­ to postpone the Navigation (Amendment) variably the case, when I have endeavoured Bill~ I want to know whether the hon. to keep the contractor up to time, and have gentleman also is aware that the chief insisted upon fining him, that hon. mem­ reason he had for such an unheard-of pro­ bers h:we taken the part of the contractor, ceeding was the fact that he himself pro­ and endeavoured to get him off his liability posed to insert forty new amendments 7 I I can only tell the hon. member that I have would ask the hon. gentleman further no wish to be harsh with any contractor ; whether he is aware that a large number but I must be allowed to exercise my of the proposed amendments are quite un­ judgment in the administration of my necessary, seeing that they are a,lready in­ department, and I do occasionally insist corporated in the bill, and whether he does upon fines when I consider it is to the not think that he himself is to be blamed advantage of the country that fines should for the delay, in that he did not see before­ be imposed. hand that the bill was a complete one 1 I Mr. A. CHAP}IAN : Will the hon. mem­ also wish to know what action the hon. ber temper justice with mercy 7 gentleman proposes now to take 7 Mr. YOUNG: I always do. Mr. REID : I can only say that I have not had an opportunity, as most hon. mem­ bers would imagine, of looking into all CASE OF J. M. SWIFT. these matters. I should have thoughthon. Progress report of select ;;ommittee pre­ members would be prepared to show me a sented. little indulgence in view of the fact that IMPROVEMENTS ON CROWN LANDS. the House sat, as it did, from Monday Mr. T. BROWN : I wish to direct the morning until last night. attention of the Secretary for Lands to Mr. vV. M. HUGHES: We all did that! the case of Gilchrist, Watt, & Co., the Mr. REID : I have a little more to do lessees of Genanagie holding, against the than has the hon. member. Crown, in which is involved the question Mr. W. M. HuGHES: The hon. member of ownership of improvements on Crown gets more for it ! N avtgation Bill. [22 DEc., 1898.) Limitation oj Debate. 3993

Mr. REID : That is a very a.ppropriate that it was a complete and comprehensive remark from the bon. member. measure, and that it did not require Mr. W. M. HuGHES : The hon. gentle­ amendment! man can sleep when he stands. It takes Mr. REID: That is a point in which I me an hour to get to sleep ! must hold myself open to conviction. I Mr. REID : When the hon. member must have an opportunity of looking into sleeps every one thanks Heaven that he is the suggested amendments. But there were asleep. In reply to his question, I wish other hon. members, beside the hon. mem­ to say that I have not had an opportunity be~ m~n~ioned, wh? took up the position of learning all the things he states. Some of ms1stmg that th1s bill should be put off schedule of amendments has been sub­ and, unfortunately, at present the Govern: mitted, I think, by the Chamber of Com­ ment have no power behind them to resist merce. I have not had an opportunity of an attitude of that kind. Out of the ten dealing ":ith them. I have not yet con­ gentlemen we sent up there, I suppose we ferred w1th the Attorney-General about have three left. Some of them never come them, but they will form the subject of a near the Chamber, and others, when they conference between us during the recess. do so, vote against us. · As to the unheard-of proceeding of putting Mr. THOliiAS : It serves the hon. gentle­ off the bill under the circumstances, I do man right for sending them up there ! ~ot think it is such an unheard-of proceed­ mg at the end of a session that a bill likely LIMITATION OF DEBATE. to create some delay and opposition -- Mr. AFFLECK : I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he will durino- Mr. W. M. HuGHES: 'Vhy did the bon. the recess,_ take steps to l1ave a meeting' of0 gentleman let it go until the end of the the Standmg_ Orders Committee, in order session 1 that a standmg order may be passed in Mr. REID : I do not know that I am accorda1ice with the hon. gentleman's pro­ on the rack at present. I am endeavour­ mise to limit the length of debates, and ing to answer the hon. member, who some­ also for the consideration of other neces­ times has a very unreasonable way, and also sary amendments in the standing orders 1 a somewhat offensive way of puttina ques­ Mr. REID : I think the experience of tions to me. I wish to say that the At­ many of us has been somewhat sharpened torney-G~neral has a pretty difficult task, bJ: recent events. In saying that, I do not representmg the Government in another wiSh to refer specially to the Opposition ; place, to get any Government measure I_ am referring to our experience on both passed. It is in the power .of one or two Sides. We have certain hon. members who members, who may take a determined do take up an unreasonable share of our stand in that Chamber, to absolutely pre­ time, and that practically has the effect of vent the Government from getting any shutting the mouths of a large number of measure through. It is no use at the end other hon. members who would otherwise of the session to do a thing which we find like to say a few words. That heina so I impossible under existing circumstances think it is the duty of the Governm~nt to and it has been found impossible to ao o~ consider whether some rule cannot be with this bill under existing circumst:nces. framed which will not take too much out That being so, the bill has been put off of the hands of the House, but which will until next session. H on. mem hers must practically leave the matter to the decision recollect that we are not in a position in of the House then sitting-whether some the_ Legislative Council to carry out our rule camiot be adopted by which the pohcy, even as Government business. We House can be relieved from a position of have about ten supporters. actual impotence. Mr. W. M. HuGHES : I do not blame Mr. CRICK : Does it not rest with Mr. the hon. member at all. Does he know Speaker to summon the Standino- Orders the reason Sir Julian Salomons, and other Committee 1 The hon. gentlema~ has no gentlemen, urged for postponing the bill1 power at all ! Mr. REID : I am not aware of it. Mr. REID : I have this power : that, Mr. :V· M. HuGHES: The i10n. gentle­ witho~t referring to the Standing Orders man sa1d, when he introduced the bill, Committee at all, I can come down to this 3094 Early-closing Bill. [ ASSElVIBLY. J Gold-fields Reserves. House and submit resolutions, as any hon. An HoN. MEliBER : They can take the member can do, to the e:ffect that certain stock at Anthony Hordern's in three days ! new standing orders be adopted, or that a lVIr. REID : The management must be certain existing standing order be amended. very good. There are a number of things Any hon. member can come to this table of that sort which have been suggested as and put on the notice-paper any scheme worthy of consideration, and it seems im­ for reform he likes, and, if the Government possible that we can get the bill through have a scheme of reform, they need not this session, and if we cannot get it through trouble this committee about it. It is Parliament this session, there will be very quite within the power of the Government little benefit derived from getting it half to bring in such a scheme at once, and no through-that is, getting it through this one can prevent them from doing so. On House. By deferring it till next session t.he other hand, if the House wishes that we shall give to those interested through­ a scheme should be referred to the Stand­ out the country a chance of making their ing Orders Committee for further inquiry, representations to us, and in the light of that might be a most reasonable request. those representations we shall have an If the House said, on the other hand, that opportunity of making the bill as benefi­ that should not be done, that the scheme cial as we can. was a perfect one, and that they did not Late1·, - want further information, we could go on lVIr. CRICK : In regard to the Early­ to pass the standing order without further closing Bill, I should like to ask the Pre­ delay by resolution in this House. mier whether he will consider it advisable to extend the sitting over Christmas for EARLY-CLOSING BILL. the purpose of passing this bill ? It is the lVIr. O'SULLIVAN : I wish to know most important bill the hon. member has whether there is any truth in the rumour brought forward for many years. It affects that the hon. gentleman does not intend thousands of people. to proceed further with the Early-closing Mr. A. H. GmFFITH: The hon. gentle­ Bill this session 1 man is against it ! lVIr. REID: I am glad the hon. gentle­ lVIr. CRICK : I am not against a proper man asked me that question, because bill. several hon. members desired me to make Mr. FERGUSON: The hon. gentleman is some statement to the Rouse about the against this bill ; what does he want it bill. {am quite willing, if we have the considered for? time, to go on with the third reading in Mr. CRICK: I am quite prepared to this House, and to go on with the recom­ support a proper amendment of it. mittal, but I can see from the time which lVIr. FERGUSON : That means a couple of was taken over the bill, that it would be years! simply impossible to get it to another place lVIr. CRICK: It can be done in a week. in time to pass it this session. It is one As the Premier promised thehon. member for W aratah time to discuss the Suffield of the most difficult su~jects we can legis­ late upon. A number of representations matter to-night -- have been made to me from various points lVIr. REID : I am going to give him time of view, which show that other interests to-night for the purpose ! have to be studied to a certain extent be­ Mr. CRICK : This man can suffer no sides those which we have in Yiew. Not greater injustice between now and next as affecting the main principles of the bill, session. He is out of gaol ; his time bas but in order to make its operation more been served. If time can be given for a convenient to the employers. For instance, discussion of the Suffield case, where there we all know· that every year an establish­ is only one man at stake, surely the Pre­ ment takes stock. Well, solne provision mier can see his way to deal with this im­ 1>hould be made for that. portant bill, which affects thousands and thousands of people. Mr. CRICK : That would only be a mat­ ter of three or four days ! GOLD-FIELDS RESERVES. Mr. REID: Sometimes in a large estab­ Mr. A. CHAPMAN : I wish to ask the lishment it would be much longer. Secretary for ~ines and Agriculture if he [Mr. Reid. Electoral Bmmclaries. (22 DEc., 1898.] Ministe1·ial Statement. 3995

is awarethatserious inconvenience, trouble, MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. and loss is being occasioned to miners on CITY RAILWAY EXTEXSION-FEDERATIOX. different fields in the colony through the Mr. REID (Sydney-King), Colonial leasing of .the gold-fields reserves, and Treasurer [ 4·42] : I' promised the House whether he will take steps to instruct the that I should make some observations on wardens to oppose these applications where two subjects-the city railway and the it is evident they are 3gainst the interests federation question. It will be more con­ of the miners? venient that I should embody both subjects Mr. COOK : These leases are invariably in one statement, and. I will deal first with given upon the recommendation of the the city railway. The history of this at­ warden: He being the officer knowing tempt to extend the railway system into most about these matters we must natur­ the city is, I think, rather familiar to bon. ally be guided by him. If the hon. mem­ memters. The suqject has been before ber has any special case he would like me the House for many years, but I do not 'to inquire into I shall be glad to do so. think the extension has ever been sub­ mitted to the House except in connection ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES. with a terminus in Hyde P!lrk. I think Mr. A. CHAP:MAN: I wish to ask the the projects which have been submitted Premier whether, during the recess, he for the approval of this House in past will take some steps to alter the anoma­ years always contemplated a central sta· lies that at present exist in regard to the tion in Hyde Park. I am not now re­ boundaries of certain electorates with a ferring to recent events, but to events of view of bringing them more into line? years ago; and, so far as my knowledge Mr. REID : What does that mean? goes, I believe that

park being a necessity, I think a vast be convenienced by the extension of the majority would prefer that the railway railway by putting me forward in that should not go beyond Park-street, at any light by persons who absolutely know that rate that would preserve the park much their statements are false, and who have more than the old proposal would. Well, a deliberate desire to injure me. upon those lines that the railway should Mr. BARTON: Who ! not go beyond Park-street, I consented to Mr. REID: Never mind who;· I am submit the matter to the Public ·works well within the truth in maki.ng the state­ Committee, and as hon. members can see ment which I now make. from the printed reference to the commit­ }Hr. CRICK : Name some one here ! tee, it provides, not for a terminus at the 1\fr. REID: I have no desire to gmtify Supreme Court or St. James' Road, but the hon. gentleman. I wish to show the for a terminus facing Park-street, and manner in which this matter has been put stopping short of the second half-the to my prejudice. It does not stop short· northern half-of the park altogether. of a bald blank statement which is untrue, That proposal was submitted to Parlia­ but there has been an ingenious use made ment and referred to the Public Works of my own words, by a quotation of a few Committee; but the great desire of the lines from a speech I made on the :33rd authorities connected with the railways to September, 1896, when the Government have the terminus at the original placA, scheme to Park-street was before the near the Supreme Court, which is, from House. This has been quoted against me the railway point of view, we will admit, on a number of occasions by a number of far the best arrangement, and, in fact, for people. I am quoted from llansard to the convenience of the public, is probably have said: the best arrangement, but which is one that I have been as jealous of Hyde Park as any b1'ings against the whole project the full individual in the community. I have repre­ sented a constituency in which the park is situ­ force of those who wish the railway out of ated for many years, and for a long time I had Hyde Park. In spite, I say, of the com­ the most rigid objection to a single inch of that promise which I arrived at with Mr. Eddy, park being taken ; but I confess that I have and which was submitted to the Public none of those objections now. W arks Committee, that body adopted the These persons who quoted me stopped scheme to resunie the northern part of the short there. If they quoted a few lines park, near the Supreme Court, which I further on, and immediately after the had always opposed; and thus the Public words they have quoted, the truth would Works Committee put in, not a scheme come out, that my objections have been of the Government, but a scheme of theit· removed because of the -- own. We have been unthinkingly abused Mr. CRICK : This is an attack on oppo­ for having submitted a scheme to the nents ; this is not a statement ! Public Wo1·ks Committee, for having got Mr. REID : What opponents 7 that scheme adopted by the committee, Mr. SEE: The persons whom the hon. and then, having obtained all we asked member is alluding to! for, suddenly stopping, and refusing to go Mr. REID: Surely the hon. member on with the scheme which we had submit­ does not want to hamper my freedom of ted. All these statements are a series of expression 7 misrepresentations; and, coming from some Mr. CRICK : The hon. member can make quarters, deliberately, gross misrepresenta- a statement without attacking people ! tions. · Mr. REID: I confess that I have been Mr. MooRE: Has the hon. member got attacked a large number of times without the precise terms of the reference to the making any reply. I do not wish to m:),ke committee 7 this the groundwork of an attack on any Mr. REID: I have referred to there­ one ; but, incidentally, I wish to justify solution. If any hon. member will send the position of myself and the Government out for the resolution, he will see that in connection with the mat tel', and in order what I have said is absolutely correct. to justify myself, I have to some extent There has been an attempt to bring down to take a few moments in clearing away . on my head the bad feeling and indigna­ this elaborate fabric of misrepresentations. tion of the thousands of people who would I simply intend to devote a minute or two [.Mr. Reid. Ministerial Statement. [22 DEc., 1898.] City Railway: Federation. 3997 to it and then to leave it. If bon. mem­ Mr. REID : I suppose hon. members bers will refer to the report of my speech, are slightly mixed up. I am not talking at page 3459 of Hansa1·d of the 23rd Sep­ of the scheme of the Public Works Com­ tember, 1896, and look at that particular mittee; I am talking of the scheme sub­ quotation at the head of the page, they mitted by the Government. will see how ingeniously I have been quoted Mr. WRIGHT: I am talking of there­ in the most unfair way. I was absent in solution of thisHouse l England when this matter came up from Mr. REID: I have already stated that the Public Works Committee, so· that I the Public Works Committee did report had no opportunity of dealing with it at in favour of a scheme to King-street; but the time, but ever 8ince I have returned I am stating that the Government scheme I have refused to go on with a scheme sent to the committee was a scheme to which was not the scheme I agreed to, stop at Park-street. which was not the scheme which the Go­ Mr. WRIGHT: No; at St. James' Road. vernment submitted to the Public \Vorks We reported on the scheme sent to us by Committee. the Government in 1897! Mr. WADDELL: ---- Mr. CRICK: The hon.member had better Mr. REID : I think I should have postpone his statement until he has had known· it if that had been put in. some sleep! Mr. WADDELL: It was done when the Mr. REID : All I can say is that in­ hon. member was away! tensifies the inconvenience no doubt of a An HoN. ME~mER: The Minister is Prime Minister being absent from the coun­ responsible ! try. I take the full Ministerial responsi­ Mr. REID : That goes without saying. bility if the Government submitted that At the present moment I am making a scheme afterwards. personal explanation. This is the motion Mr. AsHTON : It was done after the of the Government which was carried royal commission reported ! during the debate in which I spoke : Mr. SEE : Here is the report ! That it be referred to the Parliamentary Mr. REID: The report is dated 1897; Standing Committee on Public Works to con­ but I am now on the vear 1896. The hon. sider and report on the expediency of extending the rail way from Redfern into the city of Sydney. member will see tha't it is very unfair to take me into 1897 when I am talking of The particulars read by the Minister in 1896. My statements addressed to this the debate show that what I say is correct. House refer to what was done in 1896. This sentence is in the official description Mr. SEE : The Government referred it of the scheme read to the House at that to the Public Works Committee since that time: time! The station builuing fronting Park-street will be 380 feet by 60 feet deep, three storeys in Mr. LYNE : I rise to order. I haYe no height, and attics, with central tower 200 feet objection to hear a statement from the high. Prime Minister. That is the scheme which was submitted Mr. REID : I do not wish to make it ; I by the Government to this House, and am satisfied ! unless some ~mendment was arrived at Mr. LYNE : I only wish to hear a state­ in the debate, that is the scheme which ment from the right h.on. gentleman on the went to the committee; but certainly the question of the city railway. I wish to Government did not include -- take your ruling, sir, on the point whether Mr. WRIGHT: it is in order for the hon. gentleman to go Mr. REID: I shall be very glad, when into a defence with regard to some attacks I am finished, to answer any question. It made upon him by somebocly-I think by is very inconvenient to have questions the hon. member for Ashfield. If it is, from all parts of the House when one is there must be latitude allowed in replying making a statement. I wish to point out to his statement; and if it is allowed, it that these are the details of the Govern­ will create a discussion which, I do not ment scheme, showing absolutely that the think, is allowable on the occasion of a min­ station building was to be erected facing isterial statement. I do not do it with Park-street. any desire to prevent the Premier from 1\ir. WRIGHT: No; St. James' Road! making an explanation. 3998 Jl,[inistm·ial Statement. [ASSE:\IBLY.J City Railway; Federation,

Mr. REID : I would like to point out have at our command has set itself in that I have passed away from those re­ favour of that scheme. I have made marks, to which the hon. member might several attempts to get the head of the object. I am now explaining the proposal engineering authorities, and those inter­ which the Government made on the sub­ ested in this matter, to contemplate the ject. It is necessary, in order to explain possibility of some other scheme ; but I the history of the matter, that I should have been reduced to a practical position refer to that aspect of the case. Of course, of helplessness. That is the practical result if hon. members want an imperfect state­ of all my efforts-you must go to St. ment, I can give them an imperfect state­ James' Road. Well, I will not go to ment, but I do not want to do so. St. James' Road. Although I take the Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : I think the state­ responsibility of what my colleagues did ment made by the Premier is in order. in my absence fully, I say that I will Mr. LYNE : If the hon. member attacks not go to St. James' Road. My proposal some one, will he have an opportunity of was to go to Park-street, and I thought replying1 that was a very serious inroad into the :Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No; only the park; but I was prepared to settle this leader of the Opposition has a right to matter, seeing the urgency of it, by making speak after the Minister. that compromise. Now, as I say, the royal Mr. REID : The hon. member for The commission reported in favour of St. James' Hume is quite right, and I am the last Road. It was no secret long ago that I man who would wish to bring up any was against that, and I am against it still ; heated element at the end of the session. but I must acknowledge it is the respon­ But I was anxious to put before the Com­ sibility of the Government to solve this mittee the more important stages of this matter. The responsibility is mine, or matter, and that was interrupted by a re­ rather that of the Government, and I took ference to something done in 1897, for this matter up again to see if I could get which I take the fullest responsibility, from our own engineering authorities a although I was not in the country at tat scheme on this basis. I said to them : . time. I am speaking now of the year 1896, "Now, forget there is such a thing as Hyde when I was in the country, and when this Park ; let us suppose that Hyde Park is matter was submitted to the Public Works covered with enormously valuable public Committee on the 23rd September, 1896. buildings ; is it impossible to extend the As I have said, the information shows that rail way into the city under those circum­ our Government scheme was one fronting stances 1" Without being an engineer, Park-street. Coming away· from that, there I say that it is a monstrous absurdity to was a royal commission appointed, aud the tell me that, because a certain bit of Government scheme was withdrawn for the. Sydney like Hyde Pn.rk will not be per­ purpose of referring the matter to a royal mitted to be destroyed for the sake of a. commission. In that reference to the terminus, there is no engineering ability Public Vi7 orks Committee, the matter was th'1t can give us an extension of the rail­ put as an extension_j_o St. James' Road. way into Sydney. But I wish to point out that my statement Mr. LYNE: Supposing Hyde Park were in reference to Hyde Park in 1896 was not there 1 not with reference to the scheme of the Mr. REID: That is exactly 'Yhat I say. committee in 1897, the year after. It I say Hyde Park is worth more to the was with reference to the scheme we were people without its streets of public build­ then submitting to the Public Works Com­ ings on it, than it wonlcl be if those build­ mittee. Now, this matter as to St. James' ings were there. That pn.rk as a park is Road was referred by the Government to infinitely more valuable to the people of the Public Works Committee, and they this country than if it Wf)re covered with brought up a report in favour of it. No the most valuable buildings in the world, wonder, because all the professional skill is the most central in the world, and, more of the Government of this country is ap­ than that, it is. a park intersected by a parently centred on building a great cen­ number of thoroughfares which are a con­ tral station near the Supreme Court. The venience to tens of thousands of people whole of the professional skill we seem to every clay. I only consented to the com- [Mr. Reid. .Llfinisterial Statement. [22 DEc., 1898.] City Railway: Federation. 3999

promise of taking the south-western corner mised his final report in a very short time. for a terminus after the matter had been But I know enough to say this-and in worked out to my satisfaction that there view of the fact thati have not yet received would be no serious interference with those the final report, I hope hon. members will thoroughfares. Any one who has seen the excuse me from going into details which park between 8 and 9 in the morning, subsequent investigation might, perhaps, and 5 and 6 o'clock in the afternoon, not bear out. As far as I am informed from cannot fail to see that it consists of a dozen conversation with that officer, I have every busy thoroughfares which are of the great­ reason to believe that a scheme equally est convenience to the people. Under convenient, equally central, will be adopted, these circumstances, I took a step whi.ch I and extending to Circular Quay, which admit was rather a strong and unusual one; will not involve a terminal station in but feeling my responsibilty in this matter, any part of Hyde Park. That I have every when I found that the professional assist­ confidence in believing, will be the sub­ ance which we had in this country was not stance of the report which that gentleman able to help me practically and clearly by will send in. As to cost, I can assure giving me some other scheme, I thought I_ hon. members-speaking of course not would go outside the colony and get an finally-but I have every reason to believe engineer of the highest standing, who is -that the cost will not be in any way in no way affected by all these schemes, seriously greater, if it is as great, than the who has never had anything to do with cost of the proposed Hyde Park scheme. them, and who could be trusted to be quite Mr. SEE : Will it be a tunnel~ free from feeling or prejudice. I took the Mr. REID: How can I give details responsibility of asking the Premier of when I have not received the final report~ Victoria to allow the Engineer-in-Chief for I am giving hon. members the benefit of Railways of that colony to come over here what I know without committing the en· for a week, and look at the city and the gineer to a definite opinion before making various routes suggested in order to give his final report. But I ask the House to me the benefit of his advice. I put that take my word to this extent -- engineer-in-chief in communication with Mr. LYNE : It will not take Hyde Park ! all our engineering officials, the Railway Mr. REID: No; but I wish the House Commissioners, and other persons who not to run into any mistake. It may be were likely to be able to give him assist­ necessary to allow .the trains to run under ance. it, or through a portion of the park; but Mr. FEGAN : Did you ,give instructions there will be no station on it; there will to save Hyde Park, if possible~ be no stopping-place. I fancy that those Mr. REID: I asked the engineer-in· in favour of the Hyde Park site will not ~hief to begin with the assumption that object to a route which will go very closely Hyde Park was impossible. I did not to all that they want, and which will remove want advice to take Hyde Park. I said, the great o~jection which has blocked the " Mr. Rennick, assume that Hyde Park railway for many years. Ron. members will is covered with buildings of enormous admit that I have made a sufficiently full value, and that it would be altogether too explanation on that subject. I think it is costly to take." That is the basis on now more convenient that I should refer to which I put it. I did not want a recom­ federation--a question about which I pro­ mendation to take Hyde Park. I had pose to make a statement to the House. I skilled advice of that kind by the bushel. am very glad to get away from a contro­ I received a preliminary report from him versial matter to one not of that sort. settin!l out all the matters that would Ron. members will recollect that, on tl1e have to be studied; I got that two days invitation of the Government, the Legis­ ago. lative Assembly expressed its views as to An RoN. MEMBER : What were the the matters which required attention in suggestions 1 connection with the revision of the bill Mr. REID : The suggestions are coming agreed to by the national convention in a with the report. This'is an interim report, series of definite resolutions. There was a which indicates all the points that have to be resolution added on the motion of the bon. studied in solving the matter. He has pro- member for Redfern, which I voted against, 4000 Ministerial Statement. [ASSEMBLY.] City Railway: Federation. but which resolution was supported by ference must be constituted of the respon­ hon. gentlemen from all sides of this Cham­ sible heads of the different colonies. That ber, including a number of ministers. I goes without saying; but the moment the believe four ministers voted with the conference meets it must be a matter of majority in favour of the amendment to mutual arrangement as to what the subse­ which I have referred, although I opposed quent steps shall be. it. Since I invited the House to give me Mr. BAH TON : The conference will really as the best register of the opinions of the be one as to procedure! 'constituencies their views on this matter, Mr. REID : Exactly. It is only fair to it would be an altogether inconsistent and say that I have read very carefully the wrongful position on my part to take up views expressed by the Premier of Victoria to say that I would only accept those upon this matter, and although to my mind views which the House registered which it might seem perhaps better that we may coincide with my own. I do not say should postpone expressing our individual that I am converted by the fact that that views until we have an opportunity of proposition was carried. I do not at all consulting together, still since Sir George say that I will surrender my own opinion; Turner has taken the course of express­ but I do incur the responsibility of putting ing his views beforehand, I mu.y as well before any conference which is held in the· observe upon them. Sir George Turner, fullest and fairest way all the resolutions as far as I can judge from the published which have been adopted by this House. reports of his speech on the subject, looks I wish now to refer to the series of resolu­ forward to this possibility-that the pre­ tions adopted in the other Chamber. We miers upon meeting may be able to arrive invited the other Chamber to express its themselves at a mutual understanding as views upon this very difficult matter, and to the matters they should unitedly agree they have adopted a large part of the upon, and submit to their parliaments and Government resolutions, and have added people. I confess that I have all along some resolutions or alterations of their hoped that would be the decision of the own. Now, with every respect to the conference of premiers. opinions which have Leen expressed by Mr. J. C. WATSON: It will save a lot of the other Chamber, so far as they deviate time! from the opinions expressed by this House, Mr. REID: We are all supposed to be I think no one will consider me in any fully seized of the feelings of our respective sense offensive if I say that, under the colonies upon the draft bill. If we are circumstances of the case, I must naturally not now in that position we never shall be, attach greater weight to the opinions of a ahd being in that favourable position, and new-elected legislative assembly than to the being under a sense of direct responsibility, opinions of the Legislative Council. And I think that if we can arrive at a satisfac­ I think the same statement might be made tory agreement in the conference as to the with great propriety in the mother country basis of the amendments which we will under similar circumstances. I will sub­ stand by and advocate in our respective mit the resolutions of the Legislative Coun­ colonies, that way of dealing with the cil, as I am in duty bound, to the conference. matter will save a great deal of time. I will submit to the conference every reso­ Mr. CurcK how does that fit in with lution which the two houses have passed, the hon. gentleman's statement that the as it is my duty to do, and hon. gentlemen conference was to be a conference only as will recollect that the object of the ap­ to procedure 7 proaching meeting is to endeavour not to Mr. REID: I do not need to qualify force everything that we wish to have done that statement, because it would be abso­ upon the other governments; but to do our lutely within the rights of the premiers'to utmost to impre~s on the other govern­ take any course they liked, and if in the ments the views which have been so de­ course of discm;sing procedure, we con­ liberately expressed. The conference, as sidered that particular procedure the best, hon. members will see at once, must be in then it would be perfectly consistent with the first instance at any rate, whatever is my statement that the conference was to done afterwards, a conference of premiers. be as to procedure, that it should be Hon. members will ~;ee that the first con- adopted; because, surely, this procedure is [ Mr. Reid. .Ministerial Statement. [22 DEc., 1898.] City Railway: Federation. 4001 involved as a matt~r for consideration; make no undertaking of any kind, and and if in discussing the question we come that I should leave myself particularly to the conclusion that that is the best way free to discuss these matters in conference. of proceeding-as far as I am at present Mr. A. CHAPMAN : Will the first confer­ advised, I consider it infinitely the beRt ence be ~onfined to premiers only 1 solution of the question-well and good. Mr. REID: I have just said so. If, again, it is found that it is impossible for us to arrive at a uniform basis of 1\Ir. CRICK : vVhy not let there be repre­ amendment in the draft bill, then it will sentatives of each party in the House 1 be necessary to consider some other form Mr. REID : I do not think the hon. of procedure, because it will never do that member is justified in dragging in any the conference should fail of arriving at party issue. It is vet·y ill-timed interrup­ the best possible way of dealing with this tion to a matter of this kind. We had subject in the speediest possible manner. much better keep entirely away from our No method that is not agreed to can pos­ local politics. I am dealing now with New South Wales, the diffi­ him best for bringing about federation, culty of amendment is very large, and the and not delaying it. But all I can say more numerous you make YC?Ur amend­ then is this, that I do think it is an ments the more you are increasing diffi­ unfortunate thing that the present course culties, and I am afraid the right bon. has been pursued, because it seems cal­ gentleman has very largely increased the culated to lead to dissension rather than difficulties in the way of federation by the agreement. As to the conference it is his course he. has pursued, instead of in the intention to hold, I think it is unavoidable first instance summoning a conference of that the right hon. member should have the premiers after the general election endeavoured to have a conference only of which took place in New South Wales, the premiers of the various colonies in the and discussing with them upon his respon­ first instance. I do not think it could siblity· as a constitutional minister the reasonably have been expected of this Go­ steps that were necessary to be taken. I vernment, or any other government, that am afraid, now that we have laid down . they should, in the first instance, when the many things to which he himself and ([Uestion was one of policy and procedure, many bon. members are committed, that, have been forced into giving a representa· if we do not get a federation which em­ tion to both sides of the House, and I do braces all or most of those points, there not ask for it. I am quite content that will be a very strong opposition to federa­ this should, in the first instance, be a con­ tion, which opposition might have been ference of premiers,;. but I hope it will not [311-. Barton. Ministerial Statement. [22 DEc., 1898.] City Railway: Fedemtion. 4003

go beyond mere matters of procedure at vention which was elected in consequence the present time, for this reason : now that of the act of 1895 was able, at any rate, all these various resolutions have been de­ to surmount an enormous number of diffi­ bated and agreed to in the two houses, i£ culties which up to then had stood in the there is any attempt made to reconcile the way of federation. If that is so-and I numerous conflicting propositions that will think it is so-if a body so elected made arise on the authority o£ the premiers such progress in the work of federation as without some bodybeingcreated which will that body made, it will he regarded, I am represent the people as a whole, then, I afraid, by a great many people out of doors think, the difficulties will again loom large. as a retrograde and not a democratic step The right hon. member has claimed great to turn round and say, "\Ve will· have no credit, as we know, for having passed the more such bodies ; but we will return to Enabling Act of 1895, by which, he has the mode of election pursued in 1891-the often stated, the question was taken out election of a parliamentary convention." <>f the hands of the politicians, and placed I am afraid the hon. member will find that in the hands of the people. What I want that is an unpopular step, and not likely to know is this: whether some further con­ to be so effective a step as the one which sideration ought not to be given to this he has the credit of putting into operation <}Uestion; whether it will not be a retro. by passing the acto£ 1895. grade step to go back and take the ques­ Mr. REID : I am not expressing an tion again out of the hands of the people opinion! into the hands of the politicians; and, if Mr. BARTON : I am not knowingly that is not intended, then the course will endeavouring to commit myself, nor asking be pursued of which the hon. member has popular approval to any opinions which boasted-and I am not for a moment try­ might stand in the way of coming to an ing to detract from the credit which at­ agreement. My only trouble is this: I do taches to him for passing the Enabling Act wish to see this thing carried out in the o£ 1895. The difficulty which would then way that will be most satisfactory to the arise is this : if it has been a right thing people at large, and I cannot divest my to place the question of federation in the mind of the impression that the people hands of representatives elected by the will be best satisfied by having the election people for that purpose, and that purpose of delegates to the federal convention alone; if that was the right principle-and ·placed in their own hands, and not in the the hon. member is bound to say that it is hands of Parliament. For the hon. mem­ the right principle, because he has so often ber's suggestion with reference to the pos­ boasted that it.is the right principle-in sibility of going beyond procedure and that case, what reason will there ever be adopting the amendments in a conference for turning the whole course of dealing of premiers, there is this to be said : that , with this matter, and taking it back into Sir George Turner had made some expres­ such a convention as existed in 1891, when sions of opinion which would tend to render our strongest democrats have always argued it likely that a limited number of amend­ that the fatal defect in the procedure of ments might be agreed to in that way. 1891·was that the delegates were elected But it must be recollected that Sir George by the parliaments, and not elected directly Turner, in the famous correspondence by · by the people 1 There seems to me to be telegram which passed between the pre­ such an obvious inconsistency that the miers, laid it down that inasmuch as his right hon. member will find his difficulties own people-the people of Victoria-had multiplied if he does not when the time voted for the Convention Bill as it stood, comes appeal directly to the people for the he could not consent to a'conference of any election of members to a federn.l conven­ kind reviewing the work of the convention tion representing the people \vithout any -reviewing the bill-except in matters trammels at all, and on that question alone. which were not substantial or material. That was the course followed in the be­ Reading what he said the other day in con­ ginning of 1897. Although we have serious nection with what he said in those tele­ differences of opinion about the bill in this grams, the probable conclusion a reason­ House, most hon. members will be fair­ able mii1d would come to would be that minded enough to admit this, that the con- Sir George Turner would be ad verse t.o any 4004 Ministerial Statement. [ASSEMBLY.] Produce Market.

such course as would result in agreements THE ROCK TO GREEN'S GUNYAH being arrived at between premiers to review RAILWAY BILL. the work that the people carried out by Bill returned from the Legislative Coun­ their representatives for the purpose in a cil with amendments. deliberate convention. Sir George Turner may be right or wrong about that. ADJOURNMENT. Mr. REID : I cannot understand his PRODUCE MARKET. observations in any other way! Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have to inform Mr. BARTON: He has expressed a the House that I have received an intim:.t­ very deliberate opinion on the point in tion from the hon. member for Waterloo those telegrams, and if hon. members read that he desires to move the adjournment the two things together, they will see that of the House in order to discuss a definite there is also a danger there which might matter of urgent public importance, namely, well be avoided. The position of Sir George " The necessity of providing the residents Turner, it must be recollected, is also the of Alexandria and Waterloo, and other position of the premiers of two other business people, with the requisite accom­ colonies-South Australia and Tasmania. modation for transacting the produce So that if this is a difficulty which is likely business of the country." to crop up in the case of Victoria, it is a :Mr. W. 1\I. HuGHES: I rise to order. I difficulty which will be multiplied by the submit that the matter referred to by the same position arising in the other colonies. hon. member is not one of urgent public This will no doubt be a very serious ques­ importance. I do not think, sir, you could tion, and I do not wish in any way to have understood what it was about. limit the right hon. member by any Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The motion is remarks I may make. I do not wish to in order. create any impression which would pre­ Mr. LYNE : On two previous occasions vent him from getting over any difficulty the question was raised before Mr. Speaker which may exist in the way of federation. Abbott as to the subject-matter of a motion But I think what I have pointed out will of adjournment being one of urgent public serve to show hon. members that there is importance, and Mr. Speaker Abbott said, likely to be in the other colonies an indis­ on both occasionR, that he would leave the position to alter the terms of this bill, House to decide whether the matter was unless they are altered by some similar one of urgent public importance. On this body to that which has ~!ready made the occasion, considering that this is almost the bill-that is, a body elected directly by the last night of the session, I ask that you people. I think T have quite sufficiently will allow it to remain in the hands of the trespassed upon the indulgence of the House to say whether this is a matter of House. I thank hon. members for giving urgent public importance. • me the opportunity of saying one or two Mr. YouNG: Mr. Speaker Abbott ruled things on what might be regardP.d as mat­ that it was in the hands of the five mem­ ters of argument. The only trouble I feel bers who rose to support the mover ! in this matter is that the steps to be taken Mr. LYNE: My own opinion is that this are so extremely important, and a matter is not a matter of urgent public importance. of this kind is so very delicate, and so But I do not want to waste time when it is likely to come to a complete failure unless so valuable, and there are two or three mea­ the steps taken are well-balanced and die· sures to be proceeded with to· night. If it tated by great skill and judgment, that it is possible, I desire to move a motion which is only right that these considerations will deal with this matter at once. should be borne in mind before the hon. Mr. YocNG: I think the hon. member member should take any steps which may for The Hume is under a misapprehension. ?o~mit him to a position which might My recollection of Mr. Speaker's rulino is InJUre not only the federal movement, but to this effect : that it rested, not with the federation under his leadership, and I am Chair, but with the five members to decide quite content he should retain that leader· the point! ship so long as he takes those steps with Mr. LYNE: My recollection of the rulina which even by a stretch of opinion, I can is : that it was not for the five members t~ conscientiously agree. decide the matter of urgency ! (Jfr. Barton. .Aqjournment. L22 DEc., 1898.] Produce Market. 4005

Mr. YouNG: I will put my recollection would take it in your hands to say that of the ruling against the recollection of this decision was not a correct one, and ask the hon. member. I am quite satisfied the House to support you in coming to that my recollection is right. I have no that conclusion. doubt that the Clerk will be able to find a Mr. A. CHAPMAN : I wish to point out precedent such as the hon. member speaks to you, sir, that the notice of the hon. of, if it exists. That ruling was given member is not in order, because he does before Mr. Speaker Abbott's time, and not say that it is a "definite" matter of it was also given in the House of Com­ urgent public importance upon which he mons! wishes to move the adjournment of the Mr. BARTON : Did not this point arise Housn. According to the wording of the while the hon. member was Speaker~ standing order it must be stated in the Mr. YouNG: It did; and, if I remem­ notice that it is a "definite matter of ber aright, I decided that it was left to the urgent public importance." It; is well Speaker to determine; but the House car­ known to every bon. member, who has ried a motion of dissent from my ruling. moved the adjournment of the . House, to I acted on the decision of the House, as discuss grievances, that that fact must he Mr. Speaker Abbott has loyally done. I stated in the notice. In this case it is not left the determination of the matter to the so stated, and who is to say that it is a five bon. members who rose with the hon. definite matted I submit, sir, that on member wishing to move the adjournment that point alone the motion is not in order. of the House ! Mr. Vv. M. HuGHES : The motion is not Mr. BARTON: I think the hon. member in order for another reason. Under no for The Manning will recollect that he and conceivable set of circumstances do there­ I had a friendly consultation, and that we sidents of Redfern, Alexandria, and Water­ both came to the sameconclusion-namely, loo want extra accommodation for this that it was for the Speaker to decide purpose. It is not the residents, but the whether the matter was one of urgent pub­ produce merchants, of those districts who lic importance, subject to being corrected require this extra accommodation ; but the by the House in a particular case. That hon. member uses the word "residents" opinion I have always held. It does seem, in his motivn. How can the hon. member, perhaps, what people call a large order, to as a resident of Alexandria or Botany, say ask you, sir, to reverse a previous decision that he desires extra facilities to transact from the Chair ! the produce business of the country 1 I Mr. YouNG: A decision of the House, submit, sir, that the motion is out of order not of the Chair ! -first, because it is not a matter of public importance, inasmuch as it relates only to Mr. BARTON : I cannot conceive that the produce merchants; and, secondly, be­ the words "definite matter of urgent pub­ cause it cannot be a matter of urgency to lic importance" would have been placed in the residents, inasmuch as they are not the standing order unless it was intended engaged in the produce business. that the constituted authority of the House should decide the matter, subject to cor­ Mr. DEPUTY·SPEAKER: With regard to rection by the House. I am sure that all the matter of urgency, Mr. Speaker Young reason and all judgment point to that con­ gave a ruling on this point. The purport clusion. I hope, whether the House deals of the ruling was that the Speaker had with the matter to·night or not, it will power to decide whether a matter was or certainly deal with this matter in the in­ was not urgent; and, thereupon, Mr. Want terests of a proper determination before moved the following motion :- much time elapses. I think the course That this House dissents from the ruling of which has arisen has been one destructive Mr. Speaker as to the construction to be placecl upon No. l of the new rules, wherein Mr. Speaker of the order of businesR, and led to ob­ considers that such rule places upon him the structive motions of adjournment. But at responsibility, in the first instance, of deciding this time of the session, when we all think upon the question of the urgency or otherwise that public business should be despatched of any motion on which it is sought to move the adjournment of the House. with all reasonable expedition, I think it Debate ensued. would be almost a fair thing, sir, if you Question put and passed. 4006 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Produce Market.

The House dissented from the ruling of wise, hon. members have their remedy in Mr. Speaker, and said that trlfl Chair had their power to move that he be no longer not the power to decide the question of heard, or to appeal to the House from the urgency-that the determination of that decision of the Chair. I submit, sir, that question rested with the five bon. members after the ruling you gave this debate is out who rose in their places in support of the of order. , . motion. Mr. Rmn : I want to point out, sir, Mr. REID : I should like to point out to in reply to the bon. member for l{aleigh, hon. members that the procedure in this that I am not rising to question your deci­ matter is settled specially and precisely by sion on the point of order which you have Standing Order No. 49: just settled; but in settling that point of vVhen a motion is proposed "That this House order, you made an observation on another do now adjourn," such a motion shall be openly matter, which I do not wish should be proposed without any words from the mover in support, and shall only be proceeded with on taken as a ruling from you, sir; because five other members rising in their places to sup· the point may arise presently, and then it port. may be said that you have already ruled. The House by its practice has universally I take it, sir, your present ruling, although accepted the position tliat, if there is no you made an observation, is on the point other reason, on five members rising there of order raised by the hon. member. It is no power in the, House to stop the motion is a distinct point of order as to whether for adjournment. this is a matter of urgent public import­ Mr. BARTON : What nonsense ! ance. Mr. REID : Just consider, if it were so, 1\'Ir. DEPUTY·SPEAKEit: I ruled in ac­ how often bon. members would have tried cordance with former rulings that the de­ to block most meaningless attempts to cision. as to its being a matter pf urgency waste time under these motions; how often rests with the five hon. mf'mbers who rise. I should have invited the interference of Mr. A. CHAP1IAN: I submit, as a point the House when manifest obstruction was of order, that this is not a definite matter. going on in past parliaments ; how soon The bon. member himself has recognised the leader of the Honse would move a that by omitting the word "urgent" from motion, supported by his followers, that his notice of adjournment. The standing the matter was not one of urgent public order distinctly states that it must be a importance. definite matter of urgent pu blicimportance. Mr. McLAUGHLIN : I rise to order. I The hon. member himself appears to have understand, sit·, that a point of order was recognised that, and on the face of it it raised and argued, and that you decided is not a definite matter. Mr. Speaker that the motion was in order. Abbott, and other speakers, have always Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAJ{ER : I decided so far insisted tlmt it must be a definite matte!", as the question of urgency is concerned. and I am surprised that the hon. member Mr. McLAUGHLIN : It has been decided should have fallen into this mistake, see­ by the Chair, that the question of urgency ing that it is said that the notice was is a matter for the House to determine. written out by a minister who prides him­ Mr. REID : It is on the statement of the self upon his expr.rience in these matters. Chair, that it is a matter for the House If it were not insisted upon that the matter to decide, that I wish to speak ! should be a definite one, it can be easily Mr. McLAUGHLIN: Unless the Premier recognised that great confusion would arise, is prepared to conclude with a motion, he because the debate might take place on a is entirely out of order. No hon. member, hundred different subjects. after the ruling from the Chair, is entitled Mr. REID : I would point out that the to debate the matter unless he intends to standing order says nothing about the ne­ conclude with a motion. If it is the in­ cessity of putting in the word "definite" tention of the Premier to ask the House in the motion, but it has, as a matter of to decide on this point one way or the fact, to be definite, and you, sir, have de­ other, he is in order; but as the matter cided it is not a matter for you to say now stands, the hon. member for""~ aterloo whether or not the motion is definite. The is entitled to proceed with his motion for motion is definite enough. If the standing adjournment, and if it is frivolous or other- orders said that an bon. member shall state [ 1l1r. Deputy-Speake1·. Adjournment. [22 DEc., 1898.] P1·oduce Jiarlcet. 4007

in his notice that the matter is definite, Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: This is too serious a the point taken by the bon. member would matter to be discussed lightly. It is im­ be a good one. possible to discuss the hon. mem her's notice !ir. DEPUTY-SPEAimR: I do not think of motion without trenching upon notice I should be called upon to say whether the of motion No. 53, which deals with the motion is definite. storage of wheat and other grain products. Mr. CRICK : There is another question I submit that the word'> of resolution No. of order to be considered. In my opinion 53 deal with transactions in the produce your ruling is quite right, following pre­ business of the country. vious rulings in this Chamber, to the effect Mr. HAY:-

Mr. CRICK : The standing order says words be taken down, (2) to call attention to a that the question of urgency is to be point of order, or (3) to call attention to a want of a quorum, or (4) as provided by rnle 142. decided by the House on motion, without notice or debate, except a statement by Rule 142 says that a motion with•t the mover limited to ten minutes. It will notice can be made that a member who is be in the recollection of hon. members speaking "be not further heat·d." There­ that Mr. Schey, on a Government night, fore, the bon. member for Waterloo being when under the sessional order Govern­ in possession of the Chair, he cannot he ment business should take precedence, interrupted by a motion to suspend the carried a motion of this kind. standing orders. Mr. CRrcK : I do not wish to carry the Mr. YoUNG : Moved when there was no matter further, sir, but I moty tell you that other question before the House ! a later part always overrules an earlier Mr. CRICK : Although it was a Govern­ part. The standing order referred to is ment night, and there was Government a later one than that just quoted. businesR on the paper, the hon. gentleman Mr. ANDERSON : I give hon. mem­ had the right to address the House under bers who are opposing me on this occasion that standing order, and he did address credit for doing what they consider right, the House, and the House carried the and I trust they will give me credit for 'motion, and the bill was brought on-I bringing this matter forward as one of think it wus the Eight-hour Bill. I submit urgent public importance in the interests that the hon. member for Lang Division, of a large section of the people. It is a even although the bon. mem her for Water­ noticeable fact and a very painful one that loo is in possession of the chair, has the losses are sustained by the various persons right, as a matter of urgency, to move a transmitting goods into the cit.y owing to motion, just as it is the right of an bon. the want of sufficient ac~ommodation at member to interrupt a speech for the pur­ Redfern. pose of bringing a matter of privilege Mr. CRICK : I move : before the House. Any member has a That the hon. member be not further heard. right at any time to get up in the House Question put, and there being no second and demand that on a matter of urgent teller on the side of tbe ayes, importance the standing orders should be Question resolved in the negative. set aside, while he explains to the House Mr. ANDERSON: Complaints have in a ten·minutes' speech why he asks that been brought under my notice from time the matter should be taken at once. It is to time that goods have perished fot· want true that this right might be abused ; of sufficient ·accommodation. Any one but the Committee, in framing the rule, who has watched the progress and require­ assumed that hon. members would do what ments of the city and the demands of the they believed to be right. If the respon­ country, must acknowledge that there is a sibility were cast upon me of ruling, I necessity for additional accommodation in should rule without the slightest lwsitation respect of railway trucks and other con­ that the hon. mernbt>r for Lang Division veniences. has an absolute right to express within the Mr. W. M. HuGHES : I submit that the ten minutes' limit the grounds upon which bon. member has now exceeded his time. he would ask the House to take his Mr. DEPU'l'Y-SPEAKER : The hon. mem­ motion. ber is still entitled to proceed. Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : The hon. mem­ Mr. ANDERSON: It is a very com­ b"r for Waterloo was in possession of the mon thing to see a number of vehicles chair when the hon. member for Lang waiting at the railway station, with their Division rose to move the suspension of loads on, sometimes fo.r two or three hours the standing orders. All that the hon. before being able to get on to the weigh­ member for \Vest M acquarie has said with bridge. The consequence of this conges­ regard to the standing orders may be true. tion is that goods have to be stored in Bttt I would call the attention of the the auxiliary stores, and on the sidings at House to standing order 156, which says: country platforms. :Furthermore, there is No member shall interrupt another member no opportunity for purchasers to examine whilst speaking, unless (I) to request that his the goods, by reason of their being so far [Mr. Ande1'Bon. Adjournment. [22 DEc., 1898.] Produce M a1·ket. 4009

away from the city. The Government Mr. CRICK: I am speaking on behalf should at once urge upon the Railway of the Government. Commissioners the necessity of providing Mr. Kmn: Will the hon. member take for the requirements of the public in this it as a vote of censure if the motion is matter. The accommodation for the gene­ carried 1 ral public in connection with the railway Mr. CRICK : Certainly not j nothing goods traffic has not kept pace with the will drag us from ofi' these benches. We advancement of thfl country and its re­ will 3top here whatever you do. quirements. The consequence is that goods Mr. J. C. L. FITZPA'l'RICK : Is the hon. of a perishable nature are transmitted to member in order in making a burlesque of Darling Harbour and other sidings. I the proceedings 1 · have noticed some thousands of sheep­ skins being carried in a green condition. Mr. DEPUTY· SPEAKER: I hope the bon. There are some acres of ground which member for West JHacquarie will address have been purchased by the Government, himself to the question before the House? and in respect of which they have been Mr. CRICK: I a~n authorised to speak paying interest for a number of years, on behalf of the Government. The request which the Railway Commissioners might of the bon. member is one which we can­ utilise for the purposes of a market. This not comply with. Had it been brought ground extends from Erskineville to the forward early in the session we might have Alexandria siding. If the commissioners considered the matter j but we cannot do would put this ground in a proper condi­ so at this stage. tion to receive goods, the convenience of Mr. YouNG : I rise to order. I ask the public would be sen·ed, while the state your ruling, sir, whether the bon. member would be putting to profitable use an asset is in order in speaking as though he was · of some value. I think the House will a member of the GovernJVent, and in give me credit for urging the Government· making a burlesque of the proceedings? at. this late period of the session to meet Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKEH: I have already these very reasonable requirements in the called the bon. mem her to order. I must interests of the producer as well as the again ask him to address himself ~o the purchaser. Hon. members who have been qnestion. endeavouring to oppose my effort should Mr. REID: support me in this attempt to get the re­ Mr. ClUCK: I am just telling them quirements of the public attended to by the Government. what the aght hon. member told me. I say without the slightest hesitation that Mr. CRICK (West Macqnarie) [7·36): we cannot accept the proposal of the hon. On behalf of the Government I am bound member. l t has been brought forward too to say that the hon. member has not made late in the session. Had it been brought out a case. I cannot entertain his request; forward at an earlier period, we might have he simply talked about a depot at Erskine­ vil_le. It will cost a good deal more to cart considered it; but we cannot entertain it the produce from Enlkineville to the vari­ now. ous centres. The hon. member does not Mr. REID : I promised it to the hon. know what he is talking about. And member! speaking on behalf of the Government I Mr. CRICK: I cannot help wl;at my feel that we cannot entertain this matter junior colleague has done; I must stick to at all. I quite admit that the bon. mem­ my principles. I insist that this Govern­ ber may feel a bit sore that his request to ment shall not be trifled with; and what­ the House has not been met in a proper ever onr supporters behind may do, they >

pose of extracting coal. The present pro­ also the report of the Railway Commis­ posal is shortly described as follows :- sioners. The shot·t description is as fol­ For the purpose of providing a water supply lows:- for the town of Wollongong, and, if necessary, This proposal was included in the Government Por" Kembla, and intermediate villages, it is rail way policy announced by Mr. Watson in the proposed to tap the Cordeaux River near its year 1881. source, and create a storage of about 167,000,000 The survey was authorised on the 12th June, gallons, by means of a concrete dam situated at 1883, by the then Minister for Works (Mr. F. A. the crossing of that stream by the Mount Kembla ·wright), and completed during 1885. It was Road. The dividing range lying between the also amended in the year 1893. Cordeaux River and Vr"ollongong will be pierced Several deputations have waited upon the dif­ by a tunnel about~~ mile in length ; through this ferent ministers for works urging the construc­ the supply will be conveyed by an 8-in cast-iron tion of the line. Mr. Lyne, when waited upon, pipe, and from ~hence to service reservoir, a stated he had advocated this route, but thought distance of about 51 miles, by means of a 6-inch the Duhbo to Werris Creek line should be con­ welded steel pipe. The service reservoir, of structed first. 400,000 gallons capacity, will be situated on a Mr. Young also promised a'deputation which conical hill on the outskirts of the town, and waited on him in August, 1896, that he would from it the supply will be distributed through endeavour to ascertain which was the best way the usual 6-inch, 4-inch, and 3-inch cast-iron of connecting Coonamble with the railway sys­ pipes. The total estimated cost of the works tem, and he would have that route submitted to for the supply of Wollongong, including provi­ the Public Works Committee. sion to enable a supply to be subsequently drawn The Public vVorks Committee, who recently for Port Kembla, &c., is £24,500. The source reported on the proposal from Warren to Coon­ of supply is exceptionally good, being part of amble, were of opinion that it was not expedient the catchment area of the Sydney water supply, to construct that line, but recommended the and free from contamination. survey of a line from Dubbo to Coonamble. The Engineer-in-Chief for· Rail way Construc­ It may be asked why we should supply tion, who recently went over the route with the Port Kembla, too? The necessary provi­ Railway Commissioners, Messrs. Fehon and sion for W ollongong alone is only a little Kirkcaldie, and the Chief Traffic Manager, Mr. over £20,400, and I know some of the Harpet, stated in a report to the Minister, dated 8th December, 1898, that without expressing W ollongong people thought we could any opinion as to whether preference is to bE' squeeze it clown to £20,000. But hon. given to the Warren to Coonamble or Dubbo­ members will remember that lately a bill Coonamble route, the latter is very satisfactory. has gon~ through this and the other House Whilst traversing it, large quantities of wool were coming down from the Coonamble district, for the construction of a deep sea harbour and beyond. The preference to this route during at Port Kernbla. In all probability a con­ the present season, however, seems to be due to siderable town will spring up in that the fact that grass is more abundant than along vicinity, and it would be very shortsighted the Vvarren to Coon amble. The ra.infall, also, between Duhbo and Gilgandra, and along the now to have a scheme inquired into by the Castlereagh River, seems to be somewhat in committee which did not take into con­ excess of that on the vVarren-Uoonamble route. sideration the supply of Port Kembla. I This superiority of climate has, during the pre­ am sure hor1. members will agree to the sent season, enabled some very good crops of wheat to be produced. motion, because we cannot know the merits As it is desirable to keep the railway in the of the case until it is inquired into. by the besb possible position for receiving produce, Mr. committee. Deane is of opinion that the line, instead of being Question resolved in the affirmative. moved westward, as recommended by the V\' orks Uommittee, should, if possible, be kept nearer to the Castlereagh, between Gilgandra . and. DUBBO TO COONAMBLE RAILWAY. Gulargambone, so as to make the carriage as Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secre­ short as possible from the districts on the east side of the river; at the same time such a posi­ tary for Public Works [7 ·55], rose to move: tion would equally suit the west side. The line That it be referred to the Parliamentary as laid down seems to be the cheapest possible. Standing Committee on Public Works to con­ Length, g:~ miles 45 chains ; estimated cost, sider an:l report on the expediency of construct­ £207,285, or £2,215 per mile, exclusive of land ing a line of railway from Dubbo to Coonamble. and compensation. · This proposed light railway begins at the east He said : The Public Works Act makes it end of Dubho Station, at 277 miles 49·54 chains incumbent upon me to lay on the table a from Sydney, and takes a generally northerly plan, and a book of reference, in connec­ course, crossing the Talbragar RiYer ·at 281 tion with this railway, which I now do. miles 65 chains, this direction being maintained generally to 307 miles. From this point the line It also makes it incumbent upon me to is nearly parallel to the general direction of the read a short description of the line, and Castlereagh River, at a distance of from 2 to 4 4012 IJubbo to [ASSEMBLY. J Coonamble Railway. miles from it, the township of Gilgandra on the Reading between the lines, one would think river being passed at about 317! miles. At 355 that the Railway Commissioners preferred miles the river is closely approached, and follow­ ing its course the line ends at 371 miles 14·42 the route from vVarren to Coonamble, hut chains at a suitable place for station purposes and inasmuch as the committee decided against for future extension, situate about half a mile that proposal, they think this one is worthy from the bridge across the river leading into of consideration. Ron. members who know Coonamble. The greater part of the land passed through the country will, no doubt, agree with this is alienated. The works are light, and the ruling recommendation. Every one who knows grade is l in 75 with easy curvature. the district of Coonamhle must be of I have for a considerable time been of opinion that that town, and exceedingly opinion that Coonamble ought to be con­ rich district, ougl1t to be connected with nected with the railway -system of the our rail way system. . country. Hon. members will recollect that Mr. O'SULLIVAN (Queanbeyan) f8·3J: I asked the House to refer a proposed line I do not desire to oppose this proposal, but from Warren to Coonamble to the Public I wish to make a suggestion which I hope Works Committee twelve months ago. will reach the Public Works Committee. The committee decided against that pro­ Fifteen or sixteen years ago we constructed posal. I only suggested Warren because, a line of railway from "\Vallerawang to a line having been taken to Warren hom Mudgee. Ever since it has been a heavy Nevertire, it seemed to me to be the best loss to the country. 'Jhc only way to make approach. However, thfl committee re­ that line profitable i~ to carry it from ported against that proposal, and sugo-ested Mudgee to Coonamble, and into the far in its place that Dubbo would be a better west. Some time ago I had an opportunity point of connection. The Rail way Com­ of inquiring into the question as to whether missioners' report is as follows :- we should extend the line from Mudgee to Gulgong, along to Coonamble. There is In. accordance with the provisions df the Public vVorks Act of 1888, section 1:3, we beg strong evidence in favour of it. If it were to report as under : carried on from.Mudgee it would serve the Go"t of GonNtTnction.-The Engineer-in-Chief great and at one time prosperous goldfield for Construction estimates the cost of construc­ of Gulgong. It should then go on to Tal­ tion of a single line of light rail w:ty, exclusive of bragar Creek, and then on to Coonamble land and compensation, at about £207,285. Annual Cost·- itself. The only way to make the Mudgee Oapit.al expenditure at 3 per cent...... £6,218 railway pay is to extend it west, so that Estimated cost of maintaining" permaneHIJ way, and for tra.ffie and locomotive the farmers of Mudgee, who raise large expenses ...... £'[,219 quantities of cereals and vegetables, may Total annual cost ...... £13 437 be able to find a market. Otherwise we Traffic E ...,tl.matc- ' 1\lerchandise and Jive stock ...... :£8Jl26 shall have to go on for all time losing a ir~~~~~~~l~ ~~~~~.::::::::::::: ·· · · · · · · ·:: i:~rg large amount of money in the shape of in­ Parcels, &c...... 250 tere~t on the cost of construction. The line must be extended further west, and Tot~l annual traffic ...... £11,867 there is only one direction in which it can It will be observed tha1; the estimated traffic which i_s ~ased on the circumstances as at pre: go, that is to Coonamble, via Gulgong. I sent ex1stmg and local rates for merchandise, throw out this su~rgestion to the committee ~ails short of the sum required to pay the annual so that during their investigations they may mterest on cap1tal and working expenses (which pay attention to the subject., in order to ~a~ter only provide for a tri-weekly service), but 1t IS reasonable to assume that the construction see if they cannot get a better route for a of the line wonld lead to a development of the railway to Coonamble. country and subsequent increase of business. Mr. WILL IS (The Bar won) [8·5] : qoonamble and the surrounding distr:ct is I rise to support this proposition, and I e':'t1tled to ra1lway facilities; and as the pre­ am glad to see that the Minister is making viOusly proposed connection from vV arren has been rejected by the Public Works Committee some attempt to do justice, not only to the we think the route at present under re\·iew i~ town of Coonamble, but to all the selectors worthy of consideration. on the road between that place and Dubbo. The location of the line, if constructed, should Any man who is acquainted with that part be as near as possible to the west bank of the of the country must know that there are Castlereagh River. The east bank would be pre­ ferable, but the cost of construction would be hundreds of thousands of acres of unalien­ considerably greater. ated land there, laud as good for wheat- [Mr. Young. Dubbo to [22 DEc., 1898.] Goonamble Railway. 4013

growing purposes as any we have. This thence to Cobbora, it would travel moun­ land is to be found after you leave Tal­ tainous country, involving expensive con­ bragar until you reach the town boundaries struction; whereas, on the route from of Coonamble. There are thousands of Dubbo to Coonamble, there are few engi­ acres there belonging to the Crown. It neering difficulties. The people of Coon­ might have been better, as the hon. mem­ amble for many _years past have looked ber for Queanbeyan has said, to take the upon Dubbo as their business centre, and line from Mudgee to Coonamble, but for all the residents along the valley of the this fact, which is staring us in the face : Castlereagh do their land, banking, and that the Mudgee line is absolutely not safe, other business in Dubbo. It has been the and to make it safe would cost a mint of centre of their operations for many years. money. The late Mr. Eddy, who was an Their desire is to get a connection with authority on railway construction and per­ that centre. Had the connection with manent way, expressed a very decided Warren been sanctioned, the people of opinion that the Mudgee line was unsafe, Coonamble would have had to travel an and that, if it were extended, a large ex­ extra 40 miles in order to reach Sydney. penditure would be necessary to put the The connky between vVarren and Coon­ line in a safe condition. I hope the Public amble is also pastoral country, and will not Works Committee will investigate this ue put under agriculture for many years matter, and that next session we shall -if, indeed, it is ever under the plough have a bill before us. The bane of many The whole of the land between Dubbo and people in the west-at Coonamble, Wal­ Coonamble, on the other hand, is admir­ gett, and Collarendabri-is that we have . ttbly suited for agriculture. I commend the had so many conflicting routes proposed Minister for submitting it to the House, -one from 1\!Iudgee, one from Narrabri, and l am sure the Public Works Com­ and one from vV arren. Between these mittee will bear out the opinion formed by different conflicting routes they have been the preyious committee. Another point in left out in the cold for a number of vears. favour of the line is that the country out, I hope the Committee will present" a re­ towards W algett and Coonam ble would be port which will enable the bill to be passed · well served by a light line; such as the Moree into law next session. line, keeping clown the expense of con­ Mr. HASSALL (Moree) [8·7]: I trust struction as much as possible. I hope that the House will have no hesitation in send­ not only will the proposal be submitted to ing this proposal to the Public Works the committee, but that the committee Committee. As the Minister stated, the will recommend the construction of the Rdlway Commissioners were in favonr of line. an extension from Warren; but, the Pub­ Mr. HAYNES (Wellington) [8·11]: lic Works Committee having inquired into There can be no doubt that the Minister that proposal, and having consideration has taken a wise course in submitting this for the country between Warren and Coon­ line of rail way. It will open up a large amble, Du bbo and Coonam ble, and M udgee area of country throughout its entire and Coonam ble, came to the cone! nsion length, with the exception of the forest that Dubbo was the best point of depar­ belts which it traverses. The great objec­ ture for any line down the Castlereagh. tion to the proposal that it would interfere The line from Dubbo to Coonamble would with the Mudgee line, is answered by the first of all traverse the great ironbark fact that nothing can shut out continually forest, of which so much has been heard, the extension of that line. The last speaker and from which an enormous timber sup­ was quite correct in what he says as to the ply can be obtained for many years 'to country towards Cob bora. The land there come. This line will go through the heart is no doubt rugged. The country from of that country. The land upon the Cas­ Mud gee to Gulgong, on the whole, is enor­ tlereagh is agricultural land, and will carry mously rich. There is also some magnifi­ a large population. It is admirably situ­ cent land round about Cob bora. No doubt ated for wheat-growing along the banks of the extension would get rid of the present the river, and further back it is suitable loss of .£36,000 upon the Mudgee line. If for pastoral purposes. As to the line from a line is taken from Wellington to Spicer's Mudgee, from that point to Gulgong, and Creek, it can be intercepted by a line run- 4014 JJubbo to [ASSEMBLY.] Coonamble Railway. ning from Mudgee. The country round Mr. AFFLECK : There are plenty of about Dubbo is also very rich country, hon. members who want to put the gag and is open to the plough in all directions. upon me. I am at perfect liberty, I sub­ Some of the most magnificent wheat re­ mit, to put forward arguments why the turns in the southern hemisphere have line should not be submitted to the Public been announced from those districts, and Works Committee. Before sending this I do not believe there will be a better pay­ proposal to the Public Works Committee, ing line in the colony than this extension. with the possible result of adding. consider­ If I thought that it would shut out for all ably to loan expenditure, we should remem· time the extension of the Mudgee line, I ber that on every million by which we in­ should be opposed to it; but I do not think crease the debt of the country we have to that can be the case, because the extension pay interest. Then, again, there are plenty of the Mudgee line is a national question. of public works to go on with at the pre­ The people of Dubbo have exhibited enor­ sent time. What is the good of inquiring mous enterprise, and have established prac­ into otllfJrs before it is absolutelynecessary1 tically a city. I have the assurance of the Everything is against the view of referring Minister that he will, next session, con­ further works to the Public Works Com­ sider the question of a line from Welling­ mittee at the present time. Next session ton to Spicer's Creek. That line, taken will be quite soon enough to do so. If the in conjunction with the present proposal, House does its duty to the country, it will will lead to the settlement on the soil of decline to send any more works to the hundreds of families. I am glad that the Public Works Committee in the present Minister has found time at this late period state of affairs. of the session to submit this proposal. At Mr. SEE : They have not anything to go every opportunity I have endeavoured to on with! lessen the importance of the decisions of Mr. AFFLECK : It is not necessary the Public Works Committee as regards that they should go on with anything ; great pr{\jects, because I hold that the Go­ there are already ~ufficient public works in vernment are responsible for them. We hand, and we have no right to incur more should keep ministers up to their responsi­ expenditure under present conditions. On bilities in these matters. The Public Works looking over the book of reference, I find Committee is of assistance to this Chamber that the land through which this line will and the Minister, but to make it supreme go is nearly all private property. It will is opposed to well tested principles of par­ go through very little of Crown lands. liamentary government. I therefore take When the land resumption is taken into every opportunity to empha,sise the point consideration, the line will be a very ex­ I have alluded to. I have no doubt the pensive one. line· will be found to be of as paying a Mr. J.C.L.FITZPATRICK (Rylstone) character as the extension from N arrabri [8·23] : I do not know whether the Secre­ to Moree. tary for Public Works has agreed to refer Mr. AFFLECK (Yass) [8·18]: Person­ to the Puhlic \Vorks Committee the alter­ ally I do not agree with the proposal to native line from Mudgeeto Coonamble. If send this work on to the Public Works he has not done so, I would suggest that Committee. I am not opposed to the con­ that course should be followed. It has been struction of the railway, because I do not objected that the line· from Mudgee to know anything about the country, but I Coonamble would be a much longer one am opposed to sending any more works to than that from Dubbo ; but the total dis­ the Public Works Committee at the pre­ tance from the terminus at Coonamble to sent time. Only yesterday morning we the metropolis will be much less than the passed a loan bill, authorising the borrow­ distance vid Dubbo. I understand that in ing of over £2,250,000 of money, on which other cases the Public Works Committee iuterest will have to be paid. have considered alternative schemes, and, Mr. \VrLLIS: I rise to order. Is the if possible, the same course should be fol­ hon. member in order in referring to a lowed in regard to the proposed railway. loan bill passed at yesterday's sitting 7 As pointed out by the hon. member for Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I do not think Queanbeyan, the Mudgee railway was con­ the hon. member is out of order. structed at a time when it cost a great [Mr. Haynes. JJubbo to [22 DEc., 1898.] Coonamble Railu:ay. 1015

amount of money to complete it, and it is the one from Mudgee, the one from Dubbo, now running at a, loss of £30,000 per an­ and the one from Warren. By reference num. The only rational way by which that to the report of the last Public Works annual loss can be minimised is by the Committee the hon. member will see what extension of the Mud gee iine through Gul­ a line from Mudgee would cost. I will gong, across the Talbragar, and through all read, for his information, what the com· that country where the land is very rich, mittee said in reference to the extension on to Coonamble, and e.ventually probably from Mudgee: to W algett. It is impossible to expect t.he Tl1e line from M udgee to Coonamble did not Mudgee line to pay until some such exten­ commend itself to the sectional committee. Only sion is made. The original route for the very strong local reasons could justify the con­ struction of a railway so costly as this would be, Mudgee railway was altogether different and these the sectional committee did not find. from that eventually·selected. The latter The mining returns from Gulgong, which is was chosen in order to serve thP- purpose about 18 miles from Mudgee, are likely to im­ of a few score of individuals who owned prove, and the land in the vicinity and further west furnishes a considerable quantity of agri­ land along that line of country. Is it pos· cultural produce ; but neither mining nor agri· sible for the Minister to ask the Public cultural prospects appear to be sufficient to re­ W ol'l~s Committee to report also on the commend the route from Mudgee to Coonamble line from Mudgee to Coonamble? as that which should be chosen. Mr. YouNG: It is not in my power to The estimated cost of the line from Mud gee do that! is £478,936 as against £:307,285, the esti­ Mr. FEGAN : I may tell the hon. mem­ mated cost of the Dubbo to Coonamble ber that the last committee adopted that line. So that as far as the alternative course! scheme is concerned the hon. member for Mr. YouNG: They did not do it at my Rylstone will see that it has already been instance! fully considered by the Public Works Com­ Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: The new mittee. committee, knowing that there is a great Mr. HAYNES: The bon. member must difference of opinion in regard to the not forget that a railway from M udgee merits of the two proposed lines, will, I would open up Gulgong, one of the richest hope,,make some inquiry, and report with centres in that part of the country l regard to the Mudgee line while they are Mr. PHILLIPS : That is another mat­ dealing with the line from Dubbo to Coo­ ter. I am not saying anything with regard namble. It would be of assistance to the to the ultimate extension of the rail way Public Works Committee if the Railway beyond Mudgee. Although the line from Commissioners were instructed to furnish Dubbo to Coonamble shows an annual loss, an estimate of the cost of this alternative according to the estimate of the Railway scheme together with a return of the prob­ Commissioners, of £2,000 at the start, I able revenue. The committee could then have not the least doubt that the great place the two lines in juxtaposition as re­ developments which will tak0 place both gards revenue and expenditure, and be in on the Coonamble side and the Dubbo side a better position to come to a conclusion will be such that it will not be long after as between the two lines. the railway has started operations before Mr. PHILLIPS (Dubbo) W28]: There it will become a good paying line. The seems to be a general feeling in the House hon. member for Yass objects to any works that this line should go to the Public going to the Public Works Committee ; it Works Committee. I am not at all sur­ is hardly worth my while to answer that prised at that, seeing that the proposal of objection. In one breath the hon. mem­ the Minister is not a new one, for twenty ber said he was against any works going years ago a proposal to construct a line to the Public Works Committee, and in from Dubbo to Coonamhle was included the next breath he said it would be time in the Governor's speech. With regard to enough if the works were proposed during the remarks of the bon. member for Ryl­ the next session of Parliament. I do not stone, who desires the Minister to submit see any reason in that. The House has an alternative scheme to the committee, I appointed a body to consider public works may say that the last Public Works Com­ proposals, and so long as a work is of a mittee considered the three rival routes- reproductive character, or is likely to prove 4016 Dubbo to [ASSEMBLY.] Coonamble Railway. reproductive in a reasonable time, we are to hand, that it would increase the loss on justified in undertaking its construction as the existing line considerably to take an ex­ soon as possible. As I have already shown, tension from Mud gee to Coonamble 1 We this railway has been promised for the last cannot invest too much loan monev in the twenty-five years, and it has only been construction of judicious public wo;ks such owing to the intervention of two or three as railways which will open up vast areas political crises that it has not been under­ of reproductive country and bring about taken l<:,ng ago, for strangely enough it closer settlement. I have not a great was included by Mr. Watson in his finan­ knowledge of the country between Dubbo cial statement in 1881. The Stuart Go­ and Coonam ble, but 1 have not the slight­ vernment, of which Mr. Wright was Sec­ est doubt but that within a vear or two of retary for Public Works, proposed a line its construction there will be a profit on from Mudgee, and that proposal was lost by this rail way. There· cannot possibly be a a large majority. When Mr. Lyne became loss where the land served is of such Secretary for Public Works he proposed a enormous value, and where every acr:J is line from Dubbo to Coonamble, but his Go­ closely sBttled. vernment left office before that proposal Mr. ARCHIBALD CAMPBELL (Illa­ could be carried out. I am quite sure, from warra) [8·38]: As the representative of a the tone of this debate, that the House is coastal electorate, I have very great pleasure in favour of the motion to refer this line in supporting a proposal to open up a very to the Public Works CommitteP, and I feel important part of the interior of this quite satisfied that if the Public Works colony. Coonamble has been a very im­ Committee think it worth while to go very portant centre for a very long time. much into detail-seeing that the late Wherever· the people have formed centres · Public Works Committee have reported of population in the early days, as well fully on the proposal-they will report as in later days, you may depend upon favourably of the line, and the H oase, on it that it is a safe rule to provide means of the receipt of their report, will authorise the communication to those centres. Another construction of this very necesRary work. phase of this question of opening up the Mr. KIDD (Camden) [8<35]: I do not interior is rarely put forward in the House blame· the hon. member for Yass for the when railway proposals are submitted : position he has taken up against the ex­ There are large portions of this country, penditure of loan money. I think he is particularly on the coast, were the popula-· taking an over-cautious view. I think it tion is very dense. The population on the is a very good thing to refer this proposal coast is continually increasing, and the to the Public Works Committee. I am overflow requires an outlet and a means to against the reference of alternate routes to reach the markets when men do migrate. the committee. I am also against the !~ail­ The district of lllawarra has been popu­ way Commissioners being asked for any lating other parts of the colony for a reports in regard to projected lines. I generation past. It is to the advantage of think the Minister should have all the re­ the people of Illawarra and Maitland, and sponsibility of initiating and carrying out of Sydney and its suburbs, to have t,hese public works of any character. To ask the rich lands in the interior opened up in Public Works Committee to report on alter­ order that they may be able to go there, nate routes is, I think, to waste time, and take up farms, and cultivate the soil, not to go outside the provivisions of the Public only with profit to themselves, but with '\Yorks Act. If it had been a proposal to advantage to the country. The argument construct a line from MudgeetoCoonamble, put forward by the hon. mem her for Y ass, I should have had serious misgi dngs about that this line will pass through a great deal sending it on to the committee, in view of the of private land, is, to my mind, a strong enormous cost of the line from M udgee to argument in its favour, because it shows Coonamble, and the annual loss of £36,000 that there are people in the district. on the Mudgee line. Are we going to Mr. T. BROWN (Condoublin) [8·40] : lose another sum of £30,000 or £40,000 a I·do not think the opposition to this pro­ year for the sake of carrying an extension posal is very strong, and, therefore, there from Mudgee to Coonamble? I am quite is very little need to meet the arguments sure, from the reports which have come which have been advanced against it. I [Mr. Phillips. Dubbo to Coonamble Railway. [22 DEc., 1898.] Cobar- Wilcannia Railway. 4017 am therepresentativeof a somewhat similar will pay interest on the outlay, what does country, and this country to which the it matter how many of such lines are con­ Minister proposes to take this railway is structed 1 I can understand the hon. mem­ of that character of agricultural country ber opposing the construction of some lines which I have been strongly urging the de­ -for instance, the next line I propose to partment and the Parliament to develop submit, perhaps, he will oppose with a by this kind of railway. I am perfectly little more reason than he opposes this satisfied that if this line is sanctioned the proposal. But this line from Dubbo to developments which will ensue from its Coonamble, to connect that rich fertile dis­ construction will be such that it will be trict of Coonamble and all the surround­ placed ori a paying basis in a very short ing country with the railway system, it time. I do not think there need be any seems to me the hon. member should apprehension on that score on the part of approve, the only question being what is the House in constructing this _line. At the point of connection. As to the point the same time I think it is only fair to the of connection, I have tried already Warren, House that the best possible scheme should and I am obliged to come back on Dubbo. be adopted, and that, therefore, the in­ Any hon. gentleman looking only at the quiries of the Public Works Committee map not knowing anything of the nature should not be confined exclusively to this of the country, and not knowing that the proposal, to the exclusion of other schemes; line to Mudgee is not paying, would say and I would be prepared to say that the that the connection should be from M udgee. extension from Mudgee to Coonamble, ad­ I confess at once that when I came into vocated by the bon. member for Rylstone, office, and the dermtations urged me to shouldcomeunderreview by the committee. propose a line from Mudgee, I was very I feel satisfied that if a comparison is strongly of that opinion; but the more drawn between the two lines his proposal I looked into the matter, and became has advantages far and away superior to acquainted with the country-the more those which the other offers. There is information I gained, the more it showed another alternative scheme which might me that if I had to wait for the construc­ be considered, namely, from Coonamble to tion of a line from Mudgee to Coonamble N arrominf\, pretty well on the same lines it would be a long time before Coonamble as this. It is only a question of cheapness was connected with the railway system. of.construction as to "\V"hich line should be Question resolved in the affirmative. adopted. I think all these alternative schemes should come under the notice of CO BAR-WILCANNIA RAILWAY. the Committee, so that the House m:ty be placed in the position to fairly judge be­ Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary tween the alternative schemes, and adopt for Public ·works [8·4 7], rose to move: that which is in the best interests of the That it be referred to the Parliamentary Stand· country generally. As fa1· as a connection ing Committee on Pnblic \V'orks to consider and between the railway system and Coon­ report on the expediency of constructing a line of railway from Cobar to \V'ilcannia. amble is concerned, I am satisfied that the character of the country is such as to war­ He said : I have led hon. members to rant the construction of that line right expect that this line is of an entirely new away. character from the line which I proposed a Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary moment ago. It may be considered perhaps for Public Works [8·43], in reply: I have more of a national line than the line to only a few words to say in reply. Every Coonamble. U nfortunatelyitisnot so likely hon. member seems inclined to think this to pay, and I do not suppose it would be line should be constructed, except tbe hon. considered right to refer the proposal to member for Yass. He appears to hold the Public Works Committee except for such pessimistic views as to the prosperity the fact that we have a vast extent of and future prospects of the colony as to country out beyond Cobar, and although cause him to vote against almost :mything it is not perhaps so rich and fertile from which to most meiubers seems likely to one point of ':iew as the country about lift the country into a state of prosperity. Coonamble, yet I have great reason to If a railway can be constructed, and it believe, and I know a great many hon. 13 A 4018 Cobar- Wilcannit~ [ASSElVIBLY.J Railway. members believe, that there is an immensity the seaboard ::tnd metropolis. The Rail­ of wealth out in that direction. Although way Commissioners' report is as follows:­ it is more of a mineral character perhaps In accordance with the provisions of the Public than of an agricultural character, still the \\T orks Act of I 888, section 13, we beg to report wealth is there. And when we consider as under:- Cost of construction. -The Engineer-in-Chief that a great deal of this western country, for Construction estimates the cost of construc­ so long as it remains untapped by railways tion of a single line of light railway, exclusive from Sydney, although within the territory of land and compensation, at about £497,000. of New Sout.h Wales, practically belongs Annual CoRt·- Capital expenditure at 3 per cent...... £14,DlO to another colony, I think bon. members J1:~timaterl cost of 11Iainta.ining perma-nent will be inclined to stretch a point and way, and for traffic and locomotive expenses ...... £12,400 allow me to refer this proposal to the Total annual cost ...... £27,310 Public Works Committee. I will now T'·aOic E.

Railway Commissioners should take that Mr. O'SULLIVAN : That has nothing view, because they naturally look with to do with it. Years ago this committee alarm at an increase of non-paying lines. · reported strongly in favour of the line, Hon. members, however, will look at it and on the strength of that reporb the first from a somewhat different point of view, section from Nyngan to Cobar was con­ and they will be justified in referring this structed. The Minister has power to go proposal to the Public Works Committee. on with line at once. There is another point of view which I Mr. YouNG: Not without an act of would like hon. members to consider, and Parliament ! that is with regard to the public lands of Mr. O'SULLIVAN: An act of Parlia­ the colony. At my request, I haYe been ment has already been pass~d authorising furnished by the Lands Department with the construction of the first section from a return of the lands 20 miles on each side N yngan to Co bar. That line would never of the proposed line. In leasehold areas have been consti'Ucted if· it was not in­ expiring in 1918 there is no less an area tended to carry on the railway to Wilcannia than 1,995,000 acres. Then there are and Broken Hill. occupation licenses liable to be taken up An HoN. ME~iBER: The Minister has from year to year; the a.rea is 1,433,000 no authority to go beyond Cobar ! acres; untenanted, 25,000 acres; and there :M:r. O'SULLLVAN: He had authority is alienated land, 51,000 acres; settlement then to go on to Wilcannia and Broken and homestead leases, 381,000 acres; re­ Hill. All that he has to do now is to in­ serves, '1:76,000 acres; area of Crown lands troduce a bill to construct the rail way to in these different holdings, 3,453,000 acres; \Vilcannia. total, 3,929,000 acres. Looked at from that Mr. YouNG : Not without inquiry ! point of view; the hon. member for Yass Mr. O'SULLIVAN : The committee cannot raise the s~.me objection to this line reported strongly in favour of construct­ as he did to the Dnbbo-Ooonamble rail­ ing the whole line, and the first section way. If his argument is worth anything, has been constructed. Now, we find the we should be developing land still belong­ Minister going so far as to send it on ing to the Crown by constructing this rail­ again to the committee, wasting valuable way. I do not think it is necessary to say time and more money in the shape of fees, anything more about this proposal now. I with a view to making a recommendation . admit that there is very slight chance of already made. The Minister has only to the line paying directly for a considerable act upon the recommendation of the com­ number of years; but I think hon. mem hers mittee, come down with a bill, and go on are justified in passing the motion when we with the construction of the railway from look at the fact that this large outlying part Co bar to Broken Hill. While the project of New South Wales is at present, and is well worthy of support, we are merely until this line is constructed will be, cut off wasting time and money by referring it from all connection either with reference again to the Public Works Committee. _to the carrying on of business or even hav­ I cannot understand the Minister forget­ .ing any sympathy with what takes place ting this fact; but he has power at pre­ in the metropolis. The only way in which sent to bring in a bill to construct any we can expect these people to feel that other section of this line he chooses. The they are denizens and inhabitants of New section already constructed is paying hand­ South Wales is to construct a line of rail­ somely; it has led largely to the develop­ way, and bring them into close touch with ment of the Cobar mining fields. The the metropolis of this great colony. minis:ter of the day, who authorised the Question proposed. construction of that section, did his duty, Mr.O'SULLIVAN(Queanbeyan)[8·58J: and now it only remains for the present Personally, I am strongly in favour of Minister to come down with a bill author­ this line; but I would like to know what ising him to carry out another section from the Minister means by asking permission Cobar to Wilcannia, without referring it to send this line to the Public Works Com­ to the committee. We are only throwing mittee when that body has already strongly valuable money away by paying fees of reported in favour of the railway 1 £2 2s. a day to go over exactly the same Mr. YOUNG : Many years ago ! work as was done in 1891, and, more than 4020 [ ASSEl\iBLY. J Railway.

that, we are losing valuable time. I will so, but was prevented by the Opposition give a few reasons why the line should be led by Sir Henry Parkes. That was one constructed. In the first place, it is · of the greatest mistakes of that veteran'~ another section of a line between Sydney political career, because, if that. line had and Broken Hill, which ought to have peen been carried out we should have had to­ carried out eight or ten years ago. If it day a large proportion of the Broken Hill had been, we should have had a very large trade. portion of the trade between Broken Hill Mr. MoLESWORTH : No; it would be and Alma. Because we omitted to do our water-borne! duty in that day in this Parliament we Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Steamers cannot have lost that trade, and the result is that get up to Wilcannia all the year round. although, geographically, we own the coun­ try on the other side of the Darling, the Mr. MoLESWORTH : I am talking of the whole trade goes to Adelaide and Mel­ ocean traffic ! bourne. By taking this line to Wilcannia, Mr. O'SULLIVAN : When the Dibbs you will give us a chance of tapping that protective duties were on, there was no trade. Vlilcannia will be, and is now, one thought of getting goods from Adelaide or of the most important centres of inland Melbourne. If there had been a line from trade in Australia. Sydney when those duties were on, and if Mr. SLEATH : It is all rich mineral land there had been no rail way to get the goods that the railway will go 0\"er! from Adelaide there would have been a Mr. O'SULLIVAN : There is no reason very different state of things. By this line why another Broken Hill or two will not we can conquer a whole province lost to be found there. All the silver does not us in a commercial sense. Another reason lie in one particular spot. There is no why I support the line is that it opens up reason why other great tt·easures may not a large area of splendid land. Hon. mem­ be found -in the same region. Already bers talk of the western country as though we have seen the development of the opal it were only fit to run rabbits. They look mines. We have seen the development upon the place as a wild desert, but most of Mount Browne, and Tibooburra, which of it consists of rich chocolate soil, and in have already given very good returns. spring-time you may go there and. see grass . Wilcannia is the natural entrepot for all 3 or 4 feet in height, with a quantity of the trade in that district, as well as from flowers and shrubs in full bloom. When the Paroo and the western portion of I was there the place looked like a garden. Queensland. The Wilcannia trade is now There seemed to be a continuous garden done with Adelaide and Melbourne by from Nyngan to within 40 miles of Wil­ steamer, but if this line is constructed I cannia. If there were only a fair raitl­ venture to say that three-fourths of it will fall the land would grow almost anything. be done. with Sydney. A storekeeper at I have seen splendid wheat crops grown Wilcannia now has to get abou tsix months' within 50 miles of Wilcannia, and I have stores in advance because the river goes also seen wheat grown 70 or 80 miles be­ down and navigation ceases. Upon these yond Co bar; you may also see grown there . stores they have to pay interest and vegetables and citrus fruits of all kinds. insurance. All those charges would be. An HoN. ME~IBER: You must have the avoided if we had direct railway communi­ rainfall! . cation between Wilcannia and Sydney, Mr. O'SULLIVAN : The provision of because the storekeeper at Wilcannia could water is not beyond the reach of science. get. his goods up in forty-eight hours, and Hon. members, when they speak of the far would have no interest and insurance west, must not speak as if of a desert. charges. Another argument in favour of There is ample room for settlement there, the line is that it will conquer a province and I do not believe the day is far distant lost, commercially, to New South Wales when, if we can obtain water by artesian through the supineness of governments wells and other means, all this rich choco­ ten or fifteen years ago. When the Broken late soil will be under profitable occupa­ Hill field was being developed we ought tion. The whole of the land between Co bar to have carried out a railway there. The and Wilcannia is also Crown land, and hon. member for The Hume proposed to do that is another argument in favour of the [• .Wr. O'Sullivan. Ooba1·· Wilcannia [22 DEc., 1898.] Railwcty. 4021

line. Another point is, that it will give Works Committee aside. That report was us, some day, communication with the made in boom-time, when money was not transcontinental system of railway. There thought so much of, and when there was is already a line of railway as far as Her­ not such a fear of annual losses on our gott's Springs, in Adelaide, and it is in railways. We were in a very different posi­ contemplation to extend that line to Port tion financially. According to the report Darwin. There is also a proposal to make then presented, the line was estimated to a line from Alice Springs to Coolgardie, cost something like £1,500,000, and the and thence on to Perth. This line to Wil­ loss upon that expenditure would be con· cannia will connect us indirectly with this siderable. Besides, the traffic arrangements great continental system of the future. then were very different ft·om what they We shall Rome day see a line of rail way now are. At that time the Broken Hill from Port Darwin through to Broken Hill, ores were treated at Broken Hill itself; thence to \Vilcannia and Uol>ar, and on to they are now treated at Port Pirie. I do W erris Creek and Queensland. This line not agree with the bon. member for Quean­ wili eventually form part of a great net· beyan that this line would secure that work of transcontinental railways, and we traffic, and now that works have been must have some regard for that aspect of established at Port Pirie. and that ores or the question. I am a strong supporter of metal can be shipped there for tranship­ the project itself; but I call attention to ment to ocean·going steamers at otheri1orts, the absurdity of sending the proposal back it is not likely that people would go to the to the Public Works Committee. That expense of bringing the ores and metal such committee has already reported upon it. a long distance overland. I shall not ob­ It was almost unanimously in favour of ject. to the line going to the Public Works its construction, and so much attention Committee. On the contrary, I think was bestowed upon the report that Parlia" people in distant parts of the colony are ment de~ermined to carry out the first sec· entitled to some consideration. Before we tion of the rail way as far as Co bar. We refuse a work of this description it should have, up to that point, a line giving a be fully inquired into. I do not think it handsome return to the state in full opera' is right to rely upon the Broken Hill tion. Why, t.hen,should the Minister waste traffic, and I look upon the line solely in public time and money in sending this pro­ so far as it concerns Wilcannia. If the posal back to the Public Works Commit­ report of the Public Works Committee is tee 1 He has power to·day to bring in a favourable, I shall vote for thE' line later bill to make this section of railway, and on. If it appears that the anticipated loss in the following year he might tn.ke the is of such a serious character as not to section between vVilcannia and Broken warrant the construction of t.he railwav, I Hill. The bon. gentleman should be told shall reserve to myself the right to ~ote by Parliament to proceed with the bill at against it. once, without going through the farce of Mr. LYNE (The Hnme) [9·18]: This paying the Public Works Committee a is not a new matter before this House. It large sum to go over the work which was has been before us on perhaps two or three clone in 1891. occasions. On the first occasion, in 1886, 3ir. MOLESWORTH (Newtown­ I was Secretary for Public 'Norks. I then Erskine) l9·11 J: The last spe'aket· said, in made up my mind that this was a proper the first instance, that all that 'Yas required direction in which to take a railway to was that the Minister should have the Broken Hill, and had I remained in officE>, courage to call for tenders in order that I intended to make t,hat proposal: I am this line might be constructed; but even am sure that if the railway had been con­ under the old report of the Public Works structed at that time it would noL have Committee, which has been laid aside as been a losing line, but a line earning some· obsolete, the bon. gentleman would have thing to support those lines that are losing. to bring in a bill before a contract could I have heard hon. members say that this be let. This question was discussed two line will never pay; but it was said that or. three years ago, and it was held by a the line to Cobar would not pay. When ma~ority of the House that it would be that line was constructed Co bar was a very wise to lay the old report of the Public different town from what it is to-day. The 4022 Cobar- Wilcannia [ASSEl\'IBLY.J Railway, mines were closed down, an

Mr. LYNE : Here is the report of the work, and Parliament passed that reso­ Public Works Committee on the line from lution. That was on the 20th June, 1895, Cobar to \Vilcannia, referred to them in only three years ago. The passing of that 1891 ! . resolution imposed a statutory obligation :M:r. AFFLECK: On the 1st July, 1896, on the Minister to carry the work out, 1 spoke on a proposal to construct a line and I want to point out that somebody in this direction, and I Bpoke upon it fa­ has set the law at defhmce. The law says vourably; because I had been to Broken that once that resolution is passed the Hill, and while there I made use of my Minister has no option but to introduce a eyes, and I also got answers to certain bill. questions. I put down some information Mr. BRUNKER: What was the work to show what would be the result if this reported on by the committee 1 railway were constructed. I had a con­ Mr. MOORE: A railway from Cobar versation with the manager of the Pro­ to Cockburn via Wilcannia. The Minis­ prietary Mine, and he gave me some ter now asks the House to submit a por­ :figures showing what his company had paid tion of that .line to the Public Works Com­ to the Silverton Tramway Coritpany and mittee again--for what purpose? the South Australian Government fortrain­ Mr. AFFLBCK : To incur a lot more {lge for six months. The amount was aver~ expense! aged, and the expenditure for one month Mr. MOORE : Exactly; to incur un­ amounted to £20,256, made up as follows: necessary expense. What more informa­ -Bullion, £2,859; timber, £944; coke, tion does the House want in regard to this £5,791; coal, £3,574; ore, £6,564; gene­ line than that collected by the former ral goods, £525. The manager also told Public Works Committee? me that if the line were constructed it was An RoN. MEArBER : What was the date probable that the company would remove of their report 1 their works from Port Pirie to Newcastle, Mr. MOORE: It was in 1891. Every because they had land at the latter place. requirement of the law has been fulfilled I am favourable to this line, notwithstand­ in regard to this line. Parliament is in ing that, according to the report of the possession of all the information required, Raihvay Commissioners, it would involve and is well able to come to a decision with­ a considerable loss. But I am agaimt out going through the circuitous process of sending it to the Public Works Committee. again referring it to the Public Works Com­ We have already had one report from the mittee and sending these gentleman away committee; and what is to prevent the on a tour of inspection, to take evidence Minister, if he wants to go on with this all through that country during the recess. work, from getting the House to pass an There is work for the committee to do in opinion upon it ? If the House then says getting information in regard to other pro­ it will not authorise the work unless posals. The Minister does not require this another report is made, then he can easily resolution, he ought simply to introduce submit it to the Public Works Committee. a bill authorising him to go straight on It is unjustifiable to put the country to with the work. the expense of another inquiry by the Mr. SEE (Grafton) [9·35]: I am quite committee if the House is prepared to sure that if the Minister brought dowt1 a accept the report made some years ago. bill to sanction the construction of the Mr. MOORE (Bingara) [9·31]: I rise to . line, those hon. members who have spoken support the view put forward by those hon. as they have done, would not have sup­ memberswho contend that this work ought ported him, but would have told the hon. not to go to the Public Works Committee. gentleman that it was his clear duty with A proposal to construct the line from Co bar a new Parliament to refer the proposal to to Cockburn was referred to a former the Puulic Works Committee for further Public \Vorks Committee. That commit­ inquiry. I think the Minister is adopting tee reported in favour of that line as far the right course. I think he would not as Broken Hill, and in due course the have been justified in acting upon a ,report :Minister submitted to the House the reso­ which wt>s made in 1891, and that the lution required under t.he Public Works House would not havesano.tionecl the con­ Act that it was expedient to carry out the struction of a line of this magnitude unless 4024 Cobar- Wilcannia [ASSEMBLY. J Railway. it was furnished with fresh evidence, and mines could not have been opened. Now with a fresh report. I think all public they have worked into that state of per­ works ought to be referred to the Public fection that they are not only paying good \V orks Committee before a new Parlia­ wages, but starting to pay dividends. All ment is asked to decide on them. In view this great march on towards progress is of the magnitude of this particular pro­ attributable mainly to the construction of posal, and in view of the fact that the the railway to Cobar, because when we House will be furnished with later infor­ had no railway, when we had to go to mation, I think it should be referred to Nyngan, through bog, slush, and muck in the Public Works Committee for inquiry a rainy season, I have known us to pay £8, and report. I hope the House will pass £10, and £12 a ton for carriage, and, the motion. more than that, to be four, five, and six Mr. WILLTS (The Barwon) [9·37] : I months on the road from N evertire to rise to support the motion. I think that Cobar. I have known mines to be hung if a bill had been brou.!.lht down a great up. I was one of the early shareholders in deal of objection would have been takev, nearly every mine there, bar the Great and probably it would not have been car­ Cobar Mine, and I know the difficulties ried. I have known this line for a great we had-some mines were absolutely many years. As I was one of those who thrown up. Nearly twenty years I was a were directly concerned in getting the Go­ shareholder in the Occidental Mine, which vernment to construct the first section of has a fifty-head stamper going night and the line, I take some pride in supporting clay, giving healthy employment to a large the construction of the second section of number of men, and paying dividends­ what must ultimately be a great line from nearly twenty years ago I was a share­ the metropolis to tap that great silver­ holder in this mine, and we had to run field at Broken Hill. Some bon. members, away from. it as you would run from a like the hon. member for Yass, who ob­ mad dog, simply because we had not money jects to everything and anything, allege to bring machinery and timber, and other that this line will not pay. necessaries to work the low grade ores Mr. AFFLECK : I said nothing of the from the railway terminus at Nevertire. kind! \Ve want to go on with the second section Mr. WTLLIS : I do not take that view of the Cobar line. In my opinion it will of the subject. When the Cobar line was open up a dozen mines through that Boo­ first proposed, we were met with a similar randara country. I have had samples taken reply, and a refusal to construct the line. from Mount Billygo line of reefs which Although the line is only just beginning have assayed 3, 4, 5, and up to 7 dwts. of to pay, it must be admitted that it has free gold. There are mountains of mineral opened up a vast mineral · field, and set land there. You can do nothing 50 or 60 many thousands of persons in a healthful miles from a railway. The people find and profitable prosperity. But for its con­ that they can do nothing without a rail­ struction, I doubt very much whether one way. It is only a fair business project to of the greatest mines in the southern take a railway line into a vast territory hemisphere-the Great Cobar Mine­ which is known to contain mineral in would have been reopened and given the abundance, and it is a fair project for the employment it has to hundreds, if not Government to take a line into their own thousands, of men. The line has been the territory. Only a few thousand acres of means of opening not only that mine, but this land are alienated, and the people will a great mineral field within a radius of 10 simply be building a line through their own or-12 miles of Cohar. It has given the territory to improve their own property. people in and about that district the Outside the minerals, we have to consider means to deal with low-grade ores. It how much will accrue to the Treasury by may surprise some hon. members to know improving the capacity of the land for that mines are paying there, and paying pastoral pursuits. I know this country well, and employing a great many men­ well, and I know that once they get a rail­ I do not know the number-at full union way there, there are tt>ns of thousands of rate of wages on 3 d wt. to the ton. If acres of rich alluvial fiats, and the chocolate we had not a railway to Cobar, these soil on those fiats will grow, in certain sea- [Jlr. See.. Cobar- Wilcannia [22 DEc., 1898.] Railway. 4025

sons, nearly anything. I have seen wheat hers to make themselves acquainted with there as stron.!;, as prolific, and as healthy this part of the country. When you want as any wheat I have seen in more favoured a couple of hundred thousand pounds to portions of the colony. These flats will run a tramway from King-street to Potts' grow wheat, lucerne, and so on. Until a Point, it is voted and no quibble is made; system of agriculture, in a fair season, and when you want a tramway to run down wool-growing are combined, that country George-street to give the people at Glebe will never be the success we hope to see Point. an extra tramline, £200,000 or it. But if you combine the two, if you £300,000 is voted and no quibble is made, give people a railway to their door, so that though some point may be raised as to if they do p'ut 500, 600, or 1,000 acres in whether it will be opened ih May or June; wheat they can get their produce away, it but when it comes to opening ilp a vast will simply induce settlement. Look at territory, which is too big, too mighty, and Narromine, look at all these spots in and too important for bon. members to nndm:­ about Nevertire, Nyngan, and all those stand or think about, then all sorts of places. If you were to tell a man a few quibbles are raised. Now, the greatest years ago that he could grow wheat at offenders in taking these points are the N evertire, N arromine, or N yngan you Rail way Commissioners and their servants; would be laughed at, and regarded as a It is positively shameful to see the reports fit subject for a lunatic asylum. But now which these people hav!l the impertinence the finest crops which are grown in the to send down to this House. ·what do colony are grown in and about N arromine, they take us for 'I Are they the only people N yngan, and Trangie, and all those places who know anything 1 Are we a lot of which were looked upon as a stretch of noodles, sent in here by the votes of the desert a few years ago. The land out here people after going through thfl fire of is just as rich. It will grow crops just as several political contests-are we noodles, prolific as the land about Oobar, Nyngan, and do those people know every~hing 1 or N arromine. The finest crop I ever saw Here is the report they send down. It is in my life was grown within a few miles not only a lying report, but an absolut.ely of Cobar. A lamented old pioneer, Mr. shameful report to submit to an intelligent O'Neill, had a little farm on the hill a little body of men who have to decide on tl).is over from Co bar-it is now turned, I think, question. Here is a.great line of railway into a park-and the finest crops I ever going across a continent which supports saw were grown there. Of course he had 1,000,000 sheep- to be well within the bad seasons, but they have failures about mark -and goodness knows how many Orange and Wellington, where the land, stations, yet they come down here and I suppose, has the fillfost rainfall for agricul­ say that from the merchandise and live ture. They have failures in all these places. stock to be carried on this line, they ex­ I maintain that the main objects of this pect a return of £1,000 per annum. The rail way are to open the vast mineral fields, to thing is absurd. · I know carriers who be the second section of a great rail way line could earn nearly half that sum with two which will bring us in touch with Broken or three teams. Then there is the great Hill, and bring a lot of the Broken Hill town of Wilcannia, with settlement all trade to m;. It will open up. big areas along the route. Yet the commissioners have of agricnltural land, which will be used the impertinence to say, and to expect us for agriculture in good seasons, and sheep­ to believe, that the traffic will only amount farming in fair seasons, and it will solve to £1,000. Then passenger traffic, they the question of dealing with all that pine say, will amount to £800, and mails £1,000. country. You will not find pine growing Then we have pnrcels. The commissioners on bad country. These big flats, which are only allow £1,000 a ye~r for all the fat overrun with pine, show the richness of stock and merchandise along that line, and the soil which will grow such vegetation. yet they estimate that the parcels traffic The only way to deal with these big, rich will give £4,000 a year. They have shown flats, which are partly overrun with pine, so much bias against certain lines, and is to deal with them from a mineral have tried in such a high-handed way to in­ standpoint as well as from a wool-growing trude their opinions on this Honse, that standpoint. It is the duty of hon. mem- they now stop at nothing. What did they 4026 Cobar- Wilccmnia [ ASSEl\iBLY. J Railway do at \Valgett~ They got in there at 2 Committee. I believe that he would be o'clock, and the first thing they asked for in a minority if he took that course, be­ was champagne on ice. They were told cause he would have been met with all that there was no ice, and there would be sorts of quibbles. Now, however, we have none until the railway was made. They got a new committee, with keen sense of then demanded champagne, as cool as it responsibility, and r'Olduced fees, and I am <:>ould be got, with some boiled chicken. snre that they will make a thorough in­ They got a very good feed, and when they vestigation which will be favourable to the had two or three bottles of wine they said, line. "vVe have come all this way to inYesti­ Mr. WADDELL (Cowra) [9·55]: I gate this raihvay line. Wake up some­ agree with the remarks of the hon. mem­ body to give us information." Five or six ~er for The Barwon with regard to taking men were got into a room, and over a very little notice of thfl report of the Rail­ friendly glass they argued the question way Commissioners. My experience is with Messrs. Eddy, Oliver, and Fehon. that they have only one object, that is, to They then rang the bell, ordered their have a railway system which will be sure coach, and went

being so far removed from the capital Df whether the capital should be near Sydney, the colony, their trade has almost entirely because this railway would provide a more been with another colony, and they have direct route for them to Sydney. I do not received no benefit whatever from the know that there would be much difference railway expenditure. Another reason for in the distance on that line as compared constructing this railway is the fact that with the line running via Melbourne, but it will enable the producers of Dtl.bbo, there is no doubt that it would have an N arromine, and N yngan, to send their influence on the minds of the representa­ produce out to the far west in time of tives of those colonies. So that in view drought, such as it is now suffering from. of the whole circumstances of th<:J case, and As matters now stand, in times of drought the unique position in which this proposal the peoplP of that district have to get pro­ stands, and from the fact that it will tap a duce from South Anstmlia if they can get part of the colony which has not had the it at all. It is very hard for them to get benefit of railway construction, while it has hay to feed their stock in bad seasons. been taxed to make good losses on the rail­ That ought to form a very powerful argu­ way system-in view of all these facts, the ment with members of Parliament in sanc­ House would not act ·wisely if it refused tioning proposals which they do not expect to send this proposal to the Public Works to pay for Rome years. Another matter Committee. I hope the Committee will not which should be borne in mind by hon. take .a narro,v-minded view of the question, members when dealing with the question but will regard the work a great national is that this will be one step forward in work. connecting our railway system with South Mr. SLEATH (Wilcannia) [1 0 ·7]: There Australia, by way of Broken Hill. . I be­ seems to bR some difference of opinion as lieve that this colony has been extremely to the carrying of the resolution authoris­ lax and neglect.ful of its true interests in ing the Minister to bring in a bill, and I not having arailwayconstructed to Broken have just turned up Hansard. I find that Hill, and owing to that fact we have lost the sum of £250,000 was put upon the all that trade, which has gone tc another loan estimates in 1895 for this work. The colony. If we make the railway I do not :Minister in withdrawing the item said .suppose we will be able to get the whole that he understood that a point of orde1.· trade, but we ought to secure a large por­ was going to be taken-I forget what the tion of it. It is rather a pity that the Go­ point was now, but I think I had some vernment did not su bruit a proposal for resolution on the bl).siness-paper at the m(~king the rail way to Broken Hill at once. time. The Minister said : Coke and coal could then be sent from At the same time, the House having agreed Lithgow to Broken Hill, or, if that wail to the recommendation of the Public Works Committee being carried out, it has become a not found suitable, ore might be sent to statutory duty that I should bring forward a Lithgow. It pays very well to send it motion. from Cobar to Lithgow, and I have no Later on he said : doubtit would paytosend ore from Broken Although I have moved the omission of this Hill to Lithgow once the rail way is made. item, the statutory obligation has been imposed There is another matter which may seem on me to proceed with the bill. to be of not much importance, but I think That was three years ago. Much as I it.is an argument in favour of the railway should like to have seen the work pro­ which is worth considering. We expect ceeded with, I do not object to its being to be federated at a very early date, and referred to the Public Works Committee, the idea of having the capital in this colony because I think the conditions out there and close to SyJney is of considerable in­ are now much more favourable to the con­ terest to many people, alLhough 1 do not struction of a railway than when the evi­ believe it. is of so much importance as some dence was taken in 1891. I will instance people would make it out to be. If we the case of White Cliff mining field. There bad railway communication with South are something like 1,000 male adnlts em­ Australia, by way of Broken Hill, it would ployed there nDw, whereas there was not operate very favourably in the minds of the one in 1891. Altogether the conditions are South Am;tralian and \Vest Australian more favourable now than they were in people in deciding the question as to 1891. There has also been some prospecting 4028 Cobar- Wilcannia Railway. [ASSEMBLY.] Grenfell- Wyalong Railway. done since then, and it has been proved national undertaking such as this. I admit beyond a shadow of a doubt that all the at once that if the bill were brought for­ country between Co bar and Broken Hill to ward without a thorough investigation by the north is highly mineralisP-d. There are the Public \Vorks Committee, I could not rich patches of mineral deposits there, and expect this House or the other House to these can only be discovered by proper pass it. I hope, therefore, that the fullest prospecting. I am quite satisfied to refer inquiry will be made, and that information the work to the Public vVorks Committee, will be forthcoming which will lead hon. and I hope they will report upon the merits members to pass this line. I do not care of the case. ahout the statement contained in the report 1\ir. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary of the officers of the Rail way Department for Public Works [10·9], in reply: I must in regard to the probable traffic. It is ask hon. members to believe, and I am sure impossible that we could make a railway they will, that I have taken the wisest 162 miles in length in any part of the course in not assuming that this House will country without attracting a larger pro" pass this line upon an inquiry made some portion of traffic than that estimated. eight years ago. I know that I did pass a Question resolved in the affirmative. resolution, but a great many hon. members complained e,·en then that the report was RAILWAY: GRENFELL TO WYALONG. a great deal too ancient for the House to Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary act upon. I had passed the resolution, for Public Works [10·14], rose to move: but it w:ts borne in upon me that I had That it be referred to the Parliamentary Stancl­ not the slightest chance of carrying a bill ing Committee on Public \Yorks to consider and had I chosen to go on with it at that time. report on the expediency of constructing a line Hon. members will also recollect that that of railway from Grenfell to Wyalong. resolution was passed within a fortnight He said : I have here· the plans and book of the dissolution of Parliament, so that of reference, and a short description of the it was quite out of my power to proceed line, which I will read to hon. mem hers: further. I am sure the general opinion This proposed railway commences at the end will be that it would be absolutely unwise of the permanently staked line, Koorawatha to Grenfell, at 309 miles 3fi chains from Sydney viti, for me to expect this or the other House Harden, thence curving round to the left it bears· to pass a bill for the construction of this in a westerly direction, crossing a spur of the railway on a rP-port of the Public Works \Veddin Mountain range at :no miles 40 chains; Committee made in 1891. It is all very thence it runs parallel to the Forbes· road, which crosses at 313 miles 70 chains; thence in a well to say th:tt this reference involves an southerly direction to the travelling stock route increased expense. Every reference to 530, which it crosses at 315 miles 40 chains, and the Public Works Committee involves bearing clue west Wecldin Creek is crossed at some expense. It is much better that the 318 miles 20 chains, and a main spur of the House should have a report which is, so to \Vedclin Mountain at 320 miles. Here the line takes a south-westerly direction, crossing Cara­ speak, up to date, bringing forward all the gabel or Blind Creek at 332 miles 65 chains, and evidence which can be adduced, than that the road from Bimbi to Marsden at 335 miles 35 it should act in the dark, as it were, and chains ; thence it runs nearly due west up to 342 possibly make a mistake. The whole inten­ miles; thence bearing south-westerly travelling stock route2,332is crossed at 343 miles 60 chains, tion of the Public Works Committee is to travelling stock route 574, at 374 miles 30 chains, put information before hon. members en­ Bland Creek at 34S miles 70 chains, and Back abling them to use their discretion as they Creek at 353 miles 50 chains. Thence running could not otherwise do. The old system a little more westerly up to \Vyalong, where it crosses the permanently-staked line, Temora to was to take the word of the Minister and Wyalong, at 365 miles 60 chains, and running his officials as a word which could not be clue west parallel to the township alignment, it denied or departed from. The new system ends at 368 miles 35 chains. The ruling grade is that every proposal should be thoroughly on this line will be 1 in 100, and the sharpest curve 14 chains Tadius. The works will be fairly inquired into by a committee, and it is light. only reasonable for any member of any The Railway Commissioners' report upon House insisting upon the information that line runs as follows :- is gathered by the Public Works Commit­ The Engineer·in-chief for Construction esti­ tee being brought up to date as far as pos­ mates at the cost of construction of a single line sible, more especially in the case of a large of light railway, exclusive of land and compensa- [Mr. Sleath. Grenfell- Wyalong Railway. [22 DEC., 1898.] River Darling, 4029

tion, at about £142,292. Capital expenditure at occasion that there were particular local 3 per cent., £4,269; estimated cost of main­ formations of country that should be con­ taining permanent way, and for traffic and loco­ motive expenses, £4,843. Total annual cost, sidered in the construction of these lines, £9,112. The traffic estimate is as follows :-­ and that there was a belt of mineral Merchandise and live stock, £2,589; passenger country extending from Wyalong through traffic, £2,054; mails, £720 ; parcels, £500. Condobolin, practically out to Cobar, and .Total annual traffic, £5,863. From the informa­ tion which is obtainable after careful inquiry, that the line should be so constructed as the estimated revenue cannot be stated at a to serve this particular feature of the larger sum than is mentioned above. Comparing country. An alternative route has been this sum with the annual working expenses, and suggested that runs parallel with this interest on capital, it will be observed that there will be a considerable shortage until the auriferous country, going from Temora traffic largely develops. No doubt the district through Wyalong to Condobolin, and has considerable prospects, but it is not a mat­ extending on to N ymagee. This country ter of certainty that the time has arrived for has also proved to be a first-class agricul­ \Vyalong to have the benefit of rajlway con­ nection. If, however, it is decided that the tural country, and it should be developed railway should be extended to Wyalong, the by railway extension. I disagree with extension, in the opinion of the commissioners, the Minister that the extension now pro­ should be from the proposed Grenfell line. posed is the one best calculated to open I would point out to hon. members that up that country. I hope when the matter· the estimate of cost is made by the Con­ goes before the Public Works Committee struction Branch of the Public Works every facility will be given to place the Department, so that if hon. members think merits of this alternative route before the it is a bad estimate, they must put the committee, so that at a later stage the blame on the right shoulderR. The En­ House may be able to judge of the respec­ gineer-in-Chief for Railways is an officer tive merits of the two lines. in whom I have the fullest confidence. Question resolved in the affirmative. His estimates are generally found to be very exact indeed. RIVER DARLING. Mr. J. C. WATSON : What is the esti­ Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary mated loss per annum 1 for Public Works (10·23], rose to move: Mr. YOUNG: About £3,500; but the That it be refer;red to the Parliamentary Railway Commissioners expect a consider­ Standing Committee on Public Works to con­ sider and report on the expediency of construct­ able development upon the line. They ing locks and weirs on the river Darling. seem to consider that the claims of Wya­ He said : This motion is different to the long to railway connection are not very one on which the reference was made in great even now. I entirely differ from 1897. On that occasion the motion sub­ them. I have been to Wyalong, and I mitted was as follows :- know something about the enormous That it be referred to the Parliamentary amount of money which we have had to Standing Committee on Public Works to con­ expend to keep a decent road between sider and report u poi1 the expediency of con­ Temora and Wyalong. I am quite satis­ structing weirs on the river Darling between fied that it would have been advantageous Bourke and Wilcannia. to the country to have railway communi­ That motion was passed towards the end cation to Wyalong from Temora or Gren­ of last year ; but the department was not fell, I do not care which. It would have •able to submit the necessary data to the been much better had that connection Public Works Committee to enable them been made five or six years ago instead of to proceed with the inquiry, and therefore now. · it is necessary that the matter should be Mr. T. BROWN (Condoublin) (10·20]: again referred to them. It may be con­ I :tm not prep:tred to oppose the reference sidered by some bon. members that the of this matter to the Public Works Com­ proposal to construct locks and weirs on mittee, though I do not agree with the the Darling is ant~gonistic to proposals Minister that this is the best route by for reaching that river by railway. which to reach the country aimed at. Mr. WADDELL: Not at all! This matter came incidentally under re­ Mr. YOUNG : I do not think it is ; view when the extension to Grenfell was but some hon. members may take that being discussed. I pointed out on that view. I think it probable that the majority 4030 River Darling. [ASSEMBLY.] River Darling. of bon. members will take the larger view, within the spirit, if not the letter, of the and say that both these things are neces­ act. I hold that the motion now submitted sary. The other night some hon. mem­ is not in compliance with the 1:-tw, the Pub­ ber, with reference to the improvement lic Works Act being specific in its terms. of harbours, said that a railway taken We might as well refer to the Public above the river would have the same effect Works Committee the question of con­ as river navigation. I pointed out that structing rail ways in New South \Vales. one work was entirely independent of the I beg to move : other. To a large extent it will be the That the following words be added to the same in connection with the locking of motion :-"between Hourke and Menindie." the Darling. I know it has been con­ 1\ir. HASSALL (Moree) [10·31]: I am sidered th;t one great reason for locking strongly of opinion that the House should the Darling is, not for the purpose of navi­ reject this proposal altogether. Some time gation, but for the conservati~n of water. ago a proposal was referred to the Public There are some people who thmk that the Works Committee, to construct locks and locking of the river is more necessary for weirs on the Darling between Bourke and the conservation of water than for pur­ Brewarrina. There is a proposal now to poses of navigation. It is difficult to say construct a railway from Cobar to Wil­ which is the more important; but I think cannia. \Vith respect to this particular that for both reasons it is advisable and work, I would ask the Committee to listen necessary to construct locks and weirs on to the concluding words of the report of the Darling. We know that frequently the Public Works Committee, of which I communication between the upper and was a mern ber. We came to the conclu­ lower parts of the river is completely sion that a work of this magnitude should closed for want of water. The navigation be carried out under the federal govern­ of the river is often entirely stopped, and ment. \Vith federation within a reason­ great loss is occasioned to those living in able distance, and, as the whole of the the neiahbourhood. This is a somewhat colonies will participate in the benefit wide reference; at the same time I feel which may accrue from the locking of the sure the committee will be able to give us Darling, those colonies should bear their such a vast amount of .information, and proportion of the share of the cost. The such reliable information as will set at committee concluded its report with these rest the question of whether or not it is words: advisable for the colony of New South If it be the intention eventually to carry out Wales to construct locks and weirs on the a scheme of inland navigation, then the whole river Darling. length of the Darling must be locked, and the proposed work can only be regarded as the in­ Question proposed. itial step towards rendering the river navigable Mr. MOORE (Bingara) [10·2~]: The for about 1,300 miles, at a cost which the com· hon. gentleman has just said that this is mittee· have been informed would amount to rather a wide reference. I think it is too nearly £1,200,000. The benefits resulting from this expenditure would, however, accrue princi­ wide altogether, and I question very much pally to Victoria and South Australia, -- whether it complies with the Public Works The whole of the trade on the Darling, if Act. To ask the committee to inquire into the river· were made navigable from Wal­ the whole question of constructing locks gett right down to the Murray, would and weirs on the river Darling is to refer· practically gravitate to Victoria and South to it rather an extensive inquiry. I do not Australia. think such a roving commission as that while the trade of New South 'Vales (the colony ought to be given to the committee. undertaking the expenditure) and the earnings Mr. LYYE : What was the former refer­ of her railways would suffer considerably by the ence? increased competition of her southern and west­ ern neighbours, which the improvement of the Mr. MOORE: To construct locks and Darling would facilitate. The committee are· weirs between Bourke and Wilcannia. I therefore of opinion that it would be unwise for propose to move an amendment to add to this colony to engage in so lavish and disin­ the resolutions the words "between Bourke terested an outlay until, upon the federation of the whole of the colonies, the question can be and Menindie." That will be a wide enough comprehensively dealt with by a federal parlia­ reference in all conscience, and it would ment, and the expense of the undertaking fairly be one that would bring the resolution apportioned. [Mr. Young. River Darling. [22 DEc., 1898~] River Darling. 4031

That is a sensible conclusion t.~ come to J\Ir. QUINN (Sydney-Bligh) [10·37]: in the present state of affairs. Federation I must also register my protest against is the burning question of the hour. This the reference of this work to the Public Parliament was practically elected to carry Works Committee. I cannot see why a it into effect if possible, and a question of work of this character should be proposed such magnitude ail this must be dealt with, at all, in view of the fact, if it is a fact. not by the Parliament of New South that the Government intend to proceed Wales or by the Parliament of Victoria or with the work of federation. The bon. South Australia, but by the federal parlia­ member for Moree took a point which ment, because the wat·k is essentially a struck me when the motion was moved, federal one. The object is a good one. namely, that the work of making the Dar­ The conservation of water in the great ling River navigable is essentially a federal Darling watershed is itself a good project. work. One of the most important and The navigation of that great inland river protracted debates we had on the federal is a great project also. But, as the whole resolutions was on the very .question of of the colonies will derive substantial bene­ making the Darling navigable, and it was fit from the work, they should bear their held by the party to which the Minister proportionate share of the cost. Why belongs, th<1t this colony could not consent should New South Wales be saddled with to the federal government making the an expenditure of £1,250,000 for this Darling navigable if the navigability of work to take trade elsewhere, which must the river involved an infraction of the irri­ be the inevitable result? If you lock the gation rights on the banks of the river. river from Bourke to Menindie, yon pmc­ If you propose to make the Darling navig· tically throw open the waterway to the able, then you are granting the very con­ other colonies, in exactly the direction ten~ion of the federal parliament that the pointed out by the Public Works Com­ river should be made navigable. To me mittee. The river is practically navigable· this seems to 1e an idle proposition alto­ to Menindie in nearly all seasons. It is gether. The work is one of a continental between Menindie and Bourke, and be­ character. It is a work which will confer tween Bourke and the higher reaches of superior advantages on other colonies, and the river where navigation is suspended besides costing an enormous sum to this in seasons like the present. If you con­ colony, it will compete with expensive mil­ struct locks and weirs between Bourke and ways, whose only chance of becoming re­ Menindie, you make navigable the por­ productive is that they will gather in all tion o£ the river which, while it is within the trade of that district which they will our own boundaries, would be thrown tap. The work is very well from the point open to Victoria and South Australia. It of view of a House which does not intend stands to reason that if you make the to proceed with therailwaytotheDarling. river navigable for that distance you bring If we are in earnest in proceeding with the. the river into competition with the rail­ railway to Menindie, we should leave the way. It stands to reason that if you make question of the navigability of the Darling, the river navigable for that distance all the and leave the cost of that work to the year round the traffic will gradually drift colonies which will be most directly in­ down the river from the railway con­ terested, namely, Victoria and South Aus­ structed at enormous cost to bring the tralia. I was rather surprised at the re­ produce to Sydney, and find its way to mark by the hon. member for Tnmworth either Victoria or South Australia at the that we could stem the tide of commerce expense of the taxpayers ·of New South on the river by levying tolls. What would Wales. ThR time has not yet arri,•ed when be the object of making a river vavigable this colony is justified in entering upon for the purpose of encouraging commerce, such an enormous expenditure, and firmly and then levying tolls for the purpose of believing that the result of a reference to stopping that commerce 1 the Public Works Committee will be fut.ile, Mr. SAWERS: Why don't you run rail­ tlmt the time has not yet arrived when a ways for nothing? Yon want to earn the work of this magnitude should be under­ interest on the railway expenditure! taken, I am reluctantly compelled to vote Mr. QUINN: If the hon. member against the amendment and the motion. ·argues against expending public money to 4032 River Darling. [ASSEMBLY.] River Darling. make a rival channel ol' communication posed to spend large sums on locking the to the railways, his logical position is to river, and yet no tolls are to be charged oppose this motion. If the rail ways are to defray the interest. It would be far to pay, they must gather in all the trade. better to run the railway for nothing than In view of the imminence of federation, I, to do this. This iB not a proper time to for one, shall oppose this motion and. the discuss this question; w~ are only asking amendment. I believe this work is one the committee to get information. I, for of the largest works which it will be the one, have no hesitation in agreeing to this function of the federal government to motion whatever our opinions may be, and undertake. let the committee furnish Parliament with Mr. 8AWERS (Tamworth) [10·42]: It full and authentic information. would appear from the manner in which Mr. WAD DELL (Cowra) [10·46]: I these motions have been discussed to-night quite agree that the remarks made by :the that the House was asked to pass a motion hon. member for Bligh Division are well authorising .the construction of the works. worthy of consideration; but if he had lived It would seem from the speeches on this out in that district as some of us have motion as if we were asked to approve of done, and known the tremendous hardships a scheme to lock the Darling, whereas we which people have to contend with, he are simply asked to refer the matter to would have viewed much more favourably the Public Works Committee for inquiry this proposition. The hon. member for and report. I scarcely care what proposal Tamworth has spoken of this work not the Government bring down. I shall be being reproductive unless tolls are charged. quite content to refer ar,y proposal which May I remind the hon. member that we a responsible government bring down to spend .£600,000 a year on roads without the Public Works Committee. While I getting any direct return. admit that I am theoretically opposed. to Mr. ::;LEATH : They spend nothing on the locking of the Darling, why should we roads out there ! fear an inquiry into the matter? I court Mr. vVADDELL: No. If hon. mem­ the fullest inquiry. I feel quite certain bers could only realise the hardships which that when we get the report of the com­ the people living in the districts from mittee we will find that it will not be to Bourke to Wilcannia, a distance of over- the advantage of this colony to lock the 200 miles, have to contend with in a sea­ Darling from Bourke to Menindie, and son like the present one-a common thing for this simple reason, that the trade will there-in getting produce to keep their be carried to a large extent into the other stock alive, they would see that this pro­ colonies. If we are sincere federalists, as ject is well worthy the attention of Parlia­ most of us are, why should we force this ment. Most tenible losses occur in that matter on at the present time ? There is district amongst the graziers. Large num­ .no harm in getting information on the bers of valuable horses and other valuable question. If the Government are sincere stock, which it would pay to feed with hay in their proposal to extend the railway and chaff, are lost because they cannot get from Cobar to strike the Darling at Wil­ a supply for love or money. The greatest cannia, if they carry on the locking of the possible difficulty is now experienced in river further down to Menindie, how are getting hay and chaff down the Darling theygoingtofeed this railway? Most of the from Bourke to keep valuable stock alive. traffic, unless tolls are charged on the locks, The teamsters are unable to feed their will be carried to the other colonies. My hon. stock. There is no feed in the shape of friend sneers at the suggestion that tolls grass, and the cost of taking feed all the should be charged. Why should a govern­ way down .and back is so expensive as to ment expend large sums in locking the be almost prohibitory. Men have to quietly river to carry the trade to other colonies? stand by and see their stock die of starva­ Are they going to make a present of the tion. It is impossible to feed sheep in expenditure to the steamboat companies? large numbers; but valuable cattle and Why should settlers be asked to pay a horses would be fed if people could get sufficient freight on the rail ways to meet produce down in seasons like this to feed the interest on the capital :wcount and them with. From some accounts I had working expenses? It is seemingly pro- from Bourke a few days ago, I know that [ Mr. Quinn. River Darli?~g. (22 DEc., 1898.] River JJ_arling. 4033

it is almost impossible to get produce down proper spirit, and in the best interests of the river, and stock are dying in large the colony. I agree with the amendment, numbers on the Darling which would be which I intend to support; that is, that kept alive if the river were locked, as they the inquiry should be with regard to lock- . could then gP.t the produce down in the ing the river from Bourke to Menindie, a steame~·s. These are facts of very great distance of about 300 miles by road. As importance to the settlers on that long some hon. morn hers know, there is very road from Bourke to Wilcannia. If hon. little fall in the whole of that couhtry, and members only realised, as the hon. member it will require very few locks. The hon. for The Bar won, the hon. member for Wil­ member for Tamworth was somewhat cannia, and I realise, the enormous im­ astray whPn he said that if the river were portance of making the Darling a perma- · locked as far as Menindie it would be the nent waterway, so that people could he means of shooting produce into the neigh­ sure of getting produce in all Reasons, bouring colonies. If it were locked as far they would very cordially vote for this as Wentworth, about 300 miles further motion. south, there would be a tendency to carry Mr. QuiNN : Would it not be better to the trade by water into South Australia conserv~ water to grow that produce 1 and Victoria. Mr. WAD DELL: That would be one· Mr. QUINN : Would not the settlers of the things which would follow to a large lower down than Menindie to Wentworth extent. A matter which is well worthy of have reasonable ground of complaint if the our consideration is the fact that the weir river were not locked lower than Menindie 1 which has been made at Bourke has been M'r. SLEATH : They might complain. a very great success. About eighteen But while a few people might complain if months ago there was a flood. For some the river were not locked below Menindie, a weeks, there was 20 feet or more running much larger number of people now have over the weir; and when the water had cause of complaint because it is not done at subsided, the weir was found not to have all. Although the hon. member for Tam­ suffered in any way.. A number of people worth has a fairly good knowledge of this living close to the lock and weir, and the country, he is mistaken in believing that if caretaker .informed me that from the ex­ the river were locked as far as Menindie it perience of the flood which occurred they would drive trade to South Australia. had the fullest confidence that weirs could Now, let us look at the question from a be made all the way down the river with the federal st?-ndpoint. If New South Wales greatest success. The Government, there­ locks the river from Bourke to Menindie, fore, will not be making an experiment. there is about twice the distance still to The experiment has been tried, and it has be attended to. if New South Wales pays been a signal success. A great mistake · the expense from Bourke to Menindie, it will be made if Parliament does not sanc­ would fall to the other colonies interested tion this motion. --South Australia and Victoria-to pay. Mr. SLEATH (Wilcannia) [10·51]: I for the balance which has to be done. As agree with the remark of the hon. member to the cost and advisability of carrying for Tamworth that it would be inadvisable out the work, that will be a fair matter . to argue the merits and demerits of the for discussion when the report of the com­ case when we are onlv asked to. refer the mittee is presented. The hon. member for proposal to the Publi~ Works Committee. Moree spoke in favour of locking the Dar­ The hon. member for Bligh Division, speak­ ling from Bourke upwards. Nobody knows ing no doubt in good faith, but with a want better than the hon. member that that is of information, had got somewhat astray. a very different thing altogether. That is He was sure the hon. mem her would not a question on which I am somewhat in­ be averse to getting information with re­ clined to agree with the report of the gard to this particular work and the coun­ Public Works Committee. The conditions try which he evidently required. That is are altogether different. The hon. member what this referencetothecommittee means. fo.r Moree has a very good experience of They were to take evidence and present the the outlying portions of the colony; but House with such information as would I am afraid his experience of the Darling enable hon. members to deal with it in a. River from Bourke to \V entworth is· 13 B 4034 River Darling. [ASSEMBLY.] River Darling. limited, because I heard him, not long ago, to meet their arguments. If they can con­ say that there was no land available in vince me that it is against the best inter­ and around Wilcannia which was suitable ests of the colony to carry out this work for irrigation. I shall vote with them. I hope hon. mem­ Mr. HAssALL : The bon. member never bers, until then, will keep an open mind, heard me say anyt.hingof the kind, because and not be affected by prejudice. I never speak of a place which I have not Mr. WILLIS (The Barwon) [H·3J : I seen. What I said was that there was do not object to inquiry, or to locking the very little land suitable for cultivation river from Bourke to Menindie; but I between Bourke and Brewarrina. should be sorry to hand over a roving Mr. SLEATH : I was talking about the commission to the committee to go all over country between Bourke and Wilcannia. the country. Between those places there is some of the Mr. YouNG : I will accept the amend­ finest soil in the world:- ment! Mr. HASSALL : Not about Menindie! Mr. WILLIS : Then I have nothing more to say. I think the _investigation Mr. SLEATH: The hon. member only ought to be confined within the limits of paid a flying visit there, and if he had BourkeandMenindie, and not from Bourke travelled up and down the river he would to Mungundi, or any of those places. If have seen some excellent soil. This work we get the information a case may be made is highly important. out which would warrant us going on with Mr. HASSALL : I do not object to the some of the proposed work in order to act work itself, but it should be carried.out as a feeder to the Bourke railway. Below conjointly by the colon4ls l Bourke the channel is deeper and the bank Mr. SLEATH: I will not say anyhing is better, and it is more like a river there with regard to that, but there should be very than further up. As the Minister accepts little objection to our getting the informa­ the amendment, I will vote for the motion, tion the committee will supply. and I shall be glad to get more informa­ Mr; HASSALL : All that information tion on the subject. can be obtained from the inquiry already Mr. O'SULLIVAN (Queanbeyan) [11·5]: held l The House has agreed to a proposal to Mr. SLEATH : That report was pre­ construct a- railway from Brewarrina to sented to Parliament by the committee tap the Barwon, which is virtually the last session. In the meantime the officers Darling. We have also a rail way to Bourke of the Works Department have been col­ tapping the river there, and it is proposed lecting the necessary data to submit to the to construct a railway from Oobar to vVil­ committee. The great brilk of the neces: cannia. It does seem to me to be a waste sary expenditure has now been incurred, of public money, after having carried three and it is only a question of obtaining the proposals to tap the river Darling for the evidence of experts. purposes of trade, to construct weirs, Mr. QuiNN : All that information is to which are largely a federal work, and be obtained in the report of the royal com- which might very well be postponed until mission! · the federal parliament came into existence. Mr. SLEATH : The hon. member is Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secre­ mistaken. That commission which sat tary for Public Works [1H1], in reply: I years ago could not give information which am quite prepared to accept the amend­ is contained in the reports of engineers ment, and for this reason : as a matter of made during the last eight or twelve fact this proposal had not been prepared be­ months. If the hon. member for Bligh fore the railwayfromByrock to Brewarrina Division waited until we could get the most was sanctioned by this House. Otherwise recent information, he would be in a much we might have had, as an alternative better position to judge as to the advisa­ scheme, a proposal to expend a certain bility of the work. The expense of taking sum of money in keeping the river always the evidence will be a mere nothing. When open between Byrock and Brewarrina. If the report of the Committee is before the we can make the river always navigable House hon. members can argue from their from Bourke to Wilcannia, and, perhaps, different standpoints, and I will attempt on to Menindie-although I shall not be [Mr. Sleatlt. Public Offices: Bridge, [22, DEc., 1898.] Yo~~ng, ancl Phillip Streets. 4035

surprised if the Public ·works Committee He said : Hon. members are probably are in favour of weir8 only as far as Wil­ aware that the Government have had in cannia-we shall have done a very useful its possession for anum ber of years a valu­ work. I£ we construct a line from Cobar able piece of land just opposite the Public to vVilcannia, and have lines also to Bre­ Works Department, in Phillip-street, and warrina and Bourke, we shall be tapping running down toYoung-street. It has been the river at all the necessary spots, and an eyesore for a long time ; not only that, the locking of the river would enable all but it is found that more room is required the traffic, both up and down from the for public offices, and the Government has, locks for a certain distance, to concentrate therefore, come to the conclusion that the at those spots. I am quite satisfied to time has arrived when it should be utilised accept the amendment. for public buildings. I will read the de­ Amendment agreed to. scription, and it will also show to what purpose it is proposed to put the buildings : Question, as amended, put. The House The site proposed for this building is that. divided: abutting on the junction of the three streets.. Ayes, 52 ; noes, 4; majority, 48. abovementioned, and upon a portion of which AYES. now stands Nos. 36 to 42, Young-street, the pro-. Anderson, G. Moore, S. vV. perty _of, and in the occupation of, the GoverJ,l.­ Archer, W. Nobbs, J. ment. It is proposed to erect a building six storeys. Brown, T. O'Conor, B. B. in height, and containing 70,727 superficial feet . Brunker, J. N. Phillips, S. of floor space available for office accommodation, Campbell, Archibald Price, R. A. to be occupied by the Departments of Mines and Carroll, J. G. Reid, G. H. Agriculture and of Public Instruction. Carruthers, J. H. Rigg, W. The Department of Mines and Agriculture is Clarke, T. Ross, H. now partly housed in the building of the Lands Cohen, J. J. Sawers, "\\'. Office and partly in the old Naval DepOt, while its museum is .jn the temporary building erected. Cook, J. See, J. for technological purposes in the Domain, and Fegan·, J. L. Sleath, R. several small branches have had to find accom­ Ferguson, vV. J. Smith, Samuel modation elsewhere. It is very strongly desired, Fitzpatrick, J·. C. L. Spence, W. G. for the efficient working of the department, and: Garland, J. Spruson, vV. J. for economy of control, to centralise the whole, Graham, Dr. J. Stevenson, R. of the department under one roof, and in such Hawthorne, J. S. Storey, D. a building as can also contain the Technical Hogue, J. A. Suttor, F. B. Museum attached to the department. This is Hohnan, W. A. vVaddell, T. accomplished in the accompanying plans, by which the larger half of the proposed building, Hughes, vV. M. Watkins, D. including the whole of the basement and the· Jessep, T. Wilks, W. H. western side of the upper floors, with a distinct L~.w, S. J. Willis, W. N. entrance at the corner of Young and Bridge Lee, 8. A. vVilson, C. G. streets, is apportioned to this department. Lees, S. E .. Young, j, H. The accommodation in the Lands Office that Lyne, W. J'. would be thus vacated is urgently required for Mahony, W. H. Teller8, the natural expansion of the Lands Department, McLean, F. E. Piddington, W. H. B. and for the housing of a number of sub-branches Meagher, R. D; Watson, J. C. of various departments whom it was intended. to accommodate in this proposed building, but NoEs. for whom no room could be found. These sub­ Tellers, branches are as follows :-Charitable Institu­ Hassan; T. H.. Bennett, W. tions, Fisheries Department, Electoral Registrar,. Nelson, A. D: Quinn, P. E. Friendly Societies, Medical and Pllarmacy Boards, Government Statistician. Question so resolved in the affirmative; The· erection of the proposed new building wilt also admit of the removal of the unsightly tem­ porary buildings in the Domain now used fm· PUBLIC OFFICES : BRIDGE, YOUNG, AND museum purposes, PHILLIP STREETS. The Department of Public Instruction it is Mr. YOUNG(The Manning), Secretary proposed to provide for in the eastern and smaller half of the building, with a distinct for Public vVorks [11·9], rose to move : entrance at the corner of Phillip and Bridge That it be referred to the Parliamentary Stand­ streets. Its present quarters are inadequate for ing Committee on Public Vl'orks to consider and the proper administration of the department, and report on the expediency of erecting public must sooner or later be demolished in view of offices on land with frontages to Phillip, Bridge, general public improvements. Part of the staff and:. Young, streets, Sydney.. is also accommodated. in, rented premises. 4036 Offices in Phillip-street. [ASSEMBLY.] Penitentiary for Females.

The minimum accommodation required by PENITENTIARY AND PRISON FOR these two departments and the amount provided FEMALES. in the proposed new building are as follows :- Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary for Public Works [11·22], rose to move: Department. Minimum I Amount required. prJvideU. That it be referred to the P_arliamentary 1 Standing Committee on Public \Yorks to con­ sider and report on the expediency of erecting Department of Mines and Agri­ 45,777 47,941 a penitentiary and prison for females, Rand wick. culture. Department of Public Instruc­ 19,776 22,786 tion. He said : I do not know that bon. members will be satisfied to let this go without de­ The estimated cost of the building with floors bate, because I understand there is some of tire-proof construction, inclusive of lifts, is pbjection on the part of the representative approximately, £83,000. The sum of £18,500 of Rand wick to having the penitentiary at has been voted on loans, 1895, towards its that place. However, I am sure hon. mem­ erection. bers will recognise the necessity of build­ This report is accompanied by preliminary plans, Nos. 1 to 9 inclusive. ing a prison for this purpose. The matter is put very concisely in the report I have ,Mr. SEE: Does the hon. member know before me, although of course the moving what the land cost 1 spirits in this matter will be the Minis­ Mr. YOUNG: I cannot say. It has ter of Justice and his officers, the Public been in the possession of the Government Works Office being only the medium for for a long time. I dare say it has been eating carrying out the work. If the matter should itself up in the way of interest, and I would require explaining more particularly, it remind hon. members that an inquiry of would therefore be in the province of the this kind is not particularly costly. It is Minister of Justice to do that. But I not like sending the Public Works Com­ think this report will be quite sufficient mittee all over the country to look into for hon. members. I should like to em­ matters that require a very long time to phasise one particular part of the report, consider. An .inquiry of this kind will and that is that when this prison is con­ cost comparatively little, and I think the structed it will lead to the disestablishment information to be obtained is well worth of the gaol at Biloela. At Cockatoo Island the expenditure. the works in connection with the dock a,re Question resolved in the affirmative .. growing considerably, and it is extremely inconvenient to have a large portion of the property taken up with a gaol for female PUBLIC OFFICES IN PHILLIP AND prisoners. HUNTER STREETS. Mr. SEE : Why does not the hon. mem­ l.VIr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary ber put it in the· Government domain ! 'for Public Works [11·21], rose to move: Mr. YOUNG: I do not know whether That it be referred to the Parliamentary the hon. member objects to it being placed Standing Committee on Pnblic ViTorks to con­ at Rand wick, but I do not suppose his ob­ sider and report on the expediency of erecting jection will lead him to vote against the public offices on land with frontages to Phillip and Hunter Streets, Sydney. present proposal. The people at Rand­ wick will have full opportunities, if they He said : This land has also been the pro­ desire, to give evidence before the Public perty of the country for a considerable Works Committee against the proposal. time, and it is now proposed to put up Any argument they choose to adduce will buildings there to accommodate the In­ appear in the evidence taken before the spector-General of Police, the Comptroller­ committee, and will have full consideration General of Prisons, the Public Service when the matter comes again before the Board, and the Auditor-General. House. RoN. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ; we are Question proposed. all with you ! · Mr. STOREY (Randwick) [11·27] : I Mr. YOUNG: If bon. members are do not know what I have done ':o the -Pre­ satisfied, I will not say anything more. mier or the present Government that they Question resolved in the affirmative. should want to make such a Christmas-box. [Mr. Ymmg. Penitentiary and Prison [22 DEc., 1~98.] for F~Jmales. 4037

to the people of Randwick as the erection sary, and I believe it is necessary. At the of a gaol there. I quite agree that there same time I beg to move this amendment : i!l a necessity fer increased accommodation That the motion be amended by the omission for criminals, but I have a strong o~jection of the worcl "Rand wick." to a gaol being erected in Rand wick. The Mr. YouNG : I submit that the amend­ proposed site for the gaol is practically in ment is not in order. It takes away the the centre of Rand wick. The building is definiteness of the proposal. If it were intended to accommodate 420 males and carried the Public \Vorks Committee would 334 females. There is sufficient unoccu­ undertake a rambling excursion wherever pied land in the country for the purpose they choose. In fact it would be impos­ of a gaol without going to a place like sible to make such a reference under the Randwick. As a resident of Rand wick I Public Works Act. have a strong objection to seeing the police Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : I do not think vans that convey criminals to gaol going the amendment is in order. It leaves the along the street as I take a walk with my motion quite in,definite ! children. Again, when these male and Mr. O'SULLIVAN (Queanbeyan) female criminals are discharged from gaol [11·30) : I hope every hon. member will they will naturally settle down in and oppose this proposal. This waste of public around Randwick. I am surprised at money is a scandal. We have had a gaol the Minister bringing forward such a pro­ at Glen Innes for many years past., and it posal. I intend to ask hon. members to has never been used at all. It was con­ vote against it at its initiation. There is· structed. at a cost of about £13,000 or plenty of unoccupied land elsewhere, and £15,000, and to this day there has never the gaols should be taken right away from "been a prisoner inside of it. Why cannot the centres of population-30 miles from that gaol be utilised for prisoners of this Sydney ; in fact I would go furthe.r and class 1 It stands in the middle of a healthy say it would be a good thing if Darling­ district. Then, again, we have another hurst were utilised for some other purpose one at Cooma, in the Monaro district, and the gaol removed. The building where the ·climate is also good. We have shou!d be remoYed, and land in some out­ also other gaols in the country not fully lying district utilised for the erection of a occupied; and yet we are asked to vote gaol. The Government own a good deal for -this motion, which means committing of church and school land in Randwick the House to a very large expenditure for adjacent to the proposed site for a gaol. the erection of another gaol when we have and the value of these lands will be much so many of these institutions lying idle. depreciated by the proximity of a gaol. Ii Mr. YOUNG : It is only for inquiry ! the Government own this land, would it Mr. O'SULLIVAN : That is the stereo­ . not be much better to sell it for residential typed, delusive cry-only for inquiry­ sites, and devote the proceeds towards the on which hon. members are asked to vote erection of the proposed gaol in some more away money uselessly. This is one of suitable locality 1 Rand wick is one of the those cases which proves the necessity first suburbs of the city. We might as ·for our at once opposing any lavish ex­ well propose to erect a gaol at Darling penditure of this kind. So long as we Point. Rand wick is at present a very at­ have gaols in New South Wales unoccu­ tractive place. It is a pleasure resort for pied, we are not justified in constructing a great number of people around Sydney. fresh ones merely for the purpose of carry­ People driving along the Randwick road, ing out some fad of those who propose to either going to the Centennial Park, to the have the female prisoners at Randwick. race-course, to Kensington, or to Coogee That is altogether apart from the question Beach would not care to be confronted raised by the hon. member for Randwick, 11!1 along the road by prison Yans contain­ who opposes the motion from a local stand­ ing a lot of criminals going to and from the point. Nevertheless, it is a fact that gaol. The Government ought not to briP.g Rand wick is not at all a suitable place for such a proposal forward. It is a scandal­ a gaol of this character. It is a residen­ ous proceeding on their part. I agree with tial suburb, and the people who bought the Minister that increased gaol accom- property there ought not to have it depre­ . modation should be provided if it is neces- ciated by the proximity of a gaol. If it 4038 Penitentiary and Prison [Af?SEl\'IBLY.J for Females. is absolutely necessary to erect a new gaol, destroy the good work which is being done we have' ·a number of decaying towns in there 1 The work which is done at the the country, each one of which, I dare say, Randwick Asylum is a credit to the conn­ would be very glad to have a gaol erected try, and to everyone concerned. vVhy there for the 'sake of the extra expenditure should you destroy the home which these such an institution would bring, I could youngsters have and the very fine park name half a dozen such places within very in which they engage in healthy exer­ easy distance of Sydney. It seems to me cise~ that, from whatever standpoint you look Mr. HoGUE : Its day has gone past ! at it, this proposal is one that ought to be Mr. WILLIS : The hon. mem her would r~jected ; and I think the Government not say that its day has gone past if ought to give better consideration to their he knew anything about the Randwick proposals before submitting them to the Asylum. If he saw the crowds of little House. I appeal to every bon. member children marching on a Sunday to the who desires to see anything like retrench­ various churches, a picture of health, vigour, ment carried out to veto this proposal. and cleanliness, he would not say that the It is of no use for us night after night to Ranclwick Asylum is a thing of the past. vote down £50 here and .£100 there, if, A great deal of good work has been done on the other hand we are going to swallow in that institution. But outside that alto­ in a wholesale way sums which may amount gether this land is too valuable to be used to .£15,000 or £20,000. If we are going as a site for a penitentiary. Between to have a retrenchment party, let us keep · Randwick and La Perouse the Govern­ our eyes well fixed on items of this char­ ment have 5,000 acres of Crowl). lands acter, and by voting them down, show that which they cannot sell. I guarantee that we are not going to allow the public money if they put the site of this asylum up for to be squandered. sale to-morrow they would get from .£5 to Mr. WILLIS (The Barwon) [11-36]: I .£8 a foot for the land, as it has a double am not going into the question whether a frontage. Quite recently some land almost penitentiary is or is not required, because adjoining the asylum has been sold up to it is for the Government to determine that .£10 a foot. If they were to sell this site point. What I object to, is that this site they would have a good sum in hand to­ .at Rand wick should be used for such a wards putting np this penitentiary if it is purpose. The land is too valuable to be so necessary. If it is necessary, why build used. Considering all the suburban lands it in a residential suburb like Randwick, in the possession of the Government, no to which people retm:n after their day's one in full possession of his senses would work to get a little rest, and breathe the .attempt to use land worth from .£6 to .£8 fresh air~ Why crowd up a suburb like ·Or .£9 a foot for such a purpose. Why Rand wick with this penitentiary 1 I under­ .does not the Minister g0 out 3 or 5 miles stand that the Government are going to further to La Perouse, and select ·a good take a tram towards the Little Bay Hospital ,gite ~ The Government own nearly all the. very shortly. By the time this building land out there. They own thousands of i~ erected tht:l tramway will he completed. acres of church and school lands between Put this building on land which is worth Randwick and La Perouse. only .£100 an acre. Do not use valuable Mr. CARRUTHERS: 5,000 acres of Crown land for erecting a building which will land! ultimately destroy the usefulness of the Mr. WILLIS: If you want a site for most beautiful suburb we have. this prison, go out a bit further. Go away Mr. SEE (Grafton) [ 11·40] : I hope the from the beautiful and populous suburb of House will reject this motion. The mo­ Rand wick. This site is right in the centre dern idea is not to erect a gaol in a town. of Ranclwick, and a penitentiary on that It is most oqjectionable to select Rand­ site will deteriorate the value of property, wick as a site for-this building. I do not and do a serious amount of injury. Besides, dispute the fact that it may be necessary sir, what provision is made for carrying on to erect a penitentiary. The Minister says the very good work of the state schools ~ that the Government propose to take 50 The youngsters have a fine play-ground, acres for the purpose of this penitentiary, and why should you cramp them up or and the Secretary for Lands says that the [Mr. O'Sullivan. Penitentiary and Prison [22 DEc., '1898.] for Females. 4039

Government own several thousands of Perouse will become very valuable in acres of land between Randwick and La the course of years, and instead of being Perouse. worth £50 or £100 an acre they will be Mr. CARRUTHERS : Ib is all in Rand­ worth very much more than that sum. A wick, though ! penitentiary to contain 800 inmates will Mr. SEE : I would not have a peniten­ be a colony in itself, and the presence of tiary put in the neighbourhood of that that objectionable class will depreciate asylum at all. vVe ought not to erect a the value of Ranclwick, both as a residen­ penitentiary on that site when we have ad­ tial suburb and as a pleasure resort. There jacent to railway lines, thousands of acres are many other places in the colony which of Crown lands which are practically of no are more suitable than is Randwick for value, but which would be useful for this this purpose. Why should we put up on purpose. Far removed from the city, in­ this site a huge penitentiary to be seen stead of having 50 acres you could have from every vessel which passes along the 500 acres contiguous to a railway line, coast 1 This site of 50 acres is worth at where you could utilise the services of the lowest.estimate £200 to £300 an acre. these offenders without interfering with It is a bad site to drain, and it is not suit­ the labour market. But for these offenders able for the purposes of a penitentiary. to reach a penitentiary in Randwick they Mr. CARRUTHERS: Go and give evidence will have to go through the Centennial to the Public W drks Committee! Park, which is the people's park. Again, Mr. SEE : No; I willa.sk the House to Coogee is a place to which thousands of vote against the motion. I am going to persons who are not residents of Rand­ ask the House not to vote against the de­ wick resort to get the benefit of the ocean sirability of constructing a penitentiary, air. If a penitentiary is' erected on the but to vote to affirm the non-desirability of ·site of the asylum it will depreciate the erecting a huge building in the heart of value of the land to an enormous extent. ·the city. We have plenty of Crown land If you put up a building ever so handsome, along the southern line, the western line, and enclose that building with a huge and the northern line, where the Govern­ wall, no one fo~; choice will pitch his tent ment can select a site. I trust that the opposite to a huge establishment to which House will negative this proposal, and give ·these unfortunate people are being tak€n the Minister a chance to come down with at every hour of the day. · a proposal of a more satisfactory charac­ Mr. CARRUTHERS : Look at Darling­ ter. It will be a most objectionable thing hurst Gaol! for the resident.s of Rand wick to see these Mr. SEE : It was erected ·at a time people going to and from the penitentiary when Sydney was a very small place, and in a van. I protest against the erection when Darlinghurst was practically out of of a building of this description in the town. If we were building a gaol to-day heart of the city. I object to this site being would the Government take Darlinghurst used for the purpose. In the course of as a site for the gaol1 No, they would years a large population will be located on have a lock-up in the neighbourhood to the Crown lands at Randwick, Maroubra accommodate so many prisoners, but they Bay, and Little Bay, right away to La would not dream of putting a large gaol Perouse, and all along the shores of Botany in the very heart of the city. It. is well Bay. Any one who knows how valuable known that the presence of that gaol de­ these lands are, as I do, would never allow preciates the value of the properties in the that magnificent country to be disfigured neighbourhood. by a building of this description, beautiful Mr. CARRUTHERS: It is the most valu­ as !t may be. I ask the House, in all seri­ able part of the city ! ousness, to Teject the proposal. Mr. SEE : There is no accounting for Mr.. JESSEP (Waverley)· [11·50] : I tastes. If the hon. gentleman desires to hope the House will reject this absurd look at the wall round Darlinghurst Gaol proposal. The Minister should be blamed there is no reason why he should not 'for suggesting that a penitentiary should gratify his taste, but the majority of people be planted in the centre of one of our would object to imitate his example. These most beautiful and attractive suburbs. ·Crown lands between Randwick and La 'The hon. member for Queanbeyan hail 4040 Penitentiary and Prison [ASSEMBLY.] for Females.

clearly indicated the uselessness of the am sure that if the local people do not say House passing a proposal like this, involv­ anything about it, visitors to Randwick ing the expenditure of a large amount of will think that it is the mayor's residence; money. The bon. member for Grafton they will never think it is a gaol. I hope pointed out that this marine suburb is one that what happened a few years ago will of attraction and beauty, which not only not happen again. I refer to the time the residents, but the citizens generally, when some of our own mem hers retired desire to see preserved. The Secretary for into seclusion for a short period. In view Lands has suggested to me that it would of those facts, it might be as well to have be a very good thing to have a large ex­ a decent building. We will do no harm by penditure of money on a work of this kind sending this proposal to the Public Works in that suburb; but I think it would be Committee. They may report against it, far better to take some Crown lands in and they may suggest a more suitable site. the electorate of the Minister himself­ Ron. members have spoken about the that is, St. George-and put the peniten­ respectability of Randwick ; they say, tiary there. For instance, let it be placed " Just imagine seeing all the rogues and where the sewage farm is. That is a cool vagabonds who belong to the poorer classes and suitable place for this gloomy peni­ being brought there." Do we not know tentiary. It has been suggested that the that there is such a thing as bank mana­ erection of large public buildings like this gers, who are never classed among the poor one does not depreciate property, and people, embezzling money. I believe that, Darlinghurst has been instanced. Any proportiomi.tely, more of the upper ten one going near Darlinghurst will know are sent to gaol than members of the that at the present time the houses poorer classes. Why should bon. members about there are not very valuable. Any recommend places like Botany, Waterloo, one who knows anything about the peni­ and Balmain for a building of this kind tentiaryin Melbourne knows that property simply because artisans live there? "Why about Coburg has depreciated consider­ should respectable poor working people be ably. I do not understand how the Min­ saddled with this eyesore, as they call it. ister has the hardihood of proposing to Because these people are well·dressed to­ plant this penitentiary in the very centre day, and may be insolventto-morrow, they of Randwick. If this building is erected talk about the depreciation of property. ·in a magnificent part of the suburb of How do we know that it is their property Rand wick, visitors going there will see its -it may be the property of the banks? walls indicating the crime of our people. The Guvernment have a right to put a gaol It has been suggested to me as an alter­ wherever they please. This proposal, like native that Waverley should be substi­ everything elst>, can be sent to the Public tuted for Randwick. I should like to see Works Committee, and if they report any member attempt to do such a thing ; against it the Government need not go on. but I am as careful of the interests of the But if Randwick is the proper place, we adjoining electorate of Randwick as I am must put the gaol there. We have heard of my own electorate. I ask bon. mem­ the hon. member for Randwick talking bers to signify their disapproval of this about the people out there dying of typhoid proposal by rejecting it. owing· to the cemetery not being closed. Mr. CARROLL (The Lachlan) [11·56]: It is to be hoped that this gaol is not going · I must compliment the Minister for start­ to be erected near the cemetery, where the ing this great work. We have small gaols prisoners might catch contagious diseases. all over the country which are very ex­ With the healthy influence and good ex­ pensive to maintain, and the prisoners ample set by the people of Rand wick, when cannot obtain the attention which is neces· the prisoners come out they will be re­ sary.. Hon members living at Rand wick . formed and become good citizens. have spoken of the beauties of the place, Mr. FEGAN (Wickham) l12'2 a.m.]: and the disaster that will result if this A certain amount of sentiment has been magificent building is erected there. They uttered to-night, and if I lived in the say it will cost nq end of money, and I am neighbourhood of Randwick I might ex- sure the architect we have here will erect . press similar sentiments to those I have , a castle which will beautify the place. I heard uttered to night. But to me there [lllr. Jessep. Penitentiary and Prison [22 DEc., 1898.] for Females. is a higher sentiment than that expressed members. Let us not consider the palatial by the hon. member for Grafton with re­ residences erected in this suburb. Let us gard to beautiful suburbs. This is the' rather think of the human beings to whom first experience in the government of this it is our duty to afford every facility for country when a building of this descrip­ reformation. I showed my approval of tion has been set apart entirely for women. this proposal when the Minister gave No matter what we may say, it depends notice of it last night, and I should be un­ entirely upon the education, training, and worthy of the trust of the people if I did treatment of our women what our future not support it. We ought to do better in generations will be. It does not matter the future than we have done in the past so much when we go bad ourselves some­ for these unfortunate people. It is all very times ; but when our women go bad, it is well to say that Rand wick and Coogee are a terrible thing for the nation. Shall we pleasure resorts. act in the future as we have done in the Mr. CARRUTHERS : They do not object past, and erect gloomy dungeons and dark to the racecourse being there ! buildings for these unfortunate people 1 It Mr. FEGAN: There is not the slightest is the duty of the state to do its utmost to Cioubt that that is a breeding-ground for a reform those who find their way to prison. great number of people who fill our gaols I admit that the existence of these institu­ and other institutions. \V e have the hon. tions is a satire on the classes who object member for Waverley, the hon. member to have them in their midst. It is a satire for Grafton, and the bon. member for on them that these unfortunate women Rand wick asking the House to vote against should be inmates of these prisons. It is this proposal, and they would have us· perfectly true that people living in the erect a prison in some dark gloomy out-of­ lap of luxury do not like to be reminded the-way place, from which the inmrttes that these buildings have. been erected will emerge a physical and moral wreck. simply on account of their sports and pas­ I hope the arguments of these hon. mem­ times, and when we come to consider that bers will not be seriously entertained. bon. members like the hon. member for This is only a proposal for inquiry. Par­ Waverley, who is quite willing to vote liament will have afterwards to deal with large sums of money for all sorts of pur­ the matter. poses, early in the morning, petitioning Mr. FERGUSON (Sturt) [12·8 a.m.]: the Government to give so much to rescue There is a good deal of force in the argu­ homes here and there, when the Govern­ ments of the last speaker as to why this ment propose to erec~ a building suitable building should be erected in the place for the reception of these unfortunate suggested by the Minister. Any one who people, and when, we find the hon. mem­ knows anything. of our prison system at ber's Christianity all" vanishing in the face all knows that the unfortunate part of it of such a proposition, what are we to think is this : that all short-sentenced prisoners of his principles 1 He does not want us have to intermix with criminals who are in to take up such a beautiful site for these gaol, perhaps, for the terms of their lives. unfortunate creatures. It is natural from this intercourse that they An RoN. MEMBER: Why not put them should become considerably worse when in Hyde Park 1 they come out. It is very necessary we Mr. FEGAN: We want to take them should have some system under which we away from the city, and to make their could classify prisoners, male and female. surroundings such as to conduce to their You cannot do this unless you have par­ reformation. We have no right to put ticular buildings for the purpose. 'fhe them in a building, such as the hon. member only argument used to-night why this par­ hassuggested,atBroken Hill. Anumber of ticular building should not be erected at persons at Broken Hill to-day would not Randwick is that it would be an eyesore be there if circumstances admitted of their to persons who own property there. The working elsewhere at· the same rate of hon. member for Randwick, the hon. tpem­ wage. We want as good a place as we can ber for Grafton, and other hon. members select for our hospitals, penitentiaries, and have all used that argument-that if this asylums, and for that reason alone this building were erected there, it would have proposal should receive the support of bon. . a tendency to depreciate the value of their 4042 Penitentiary and Prison [ASSEMBLY.] for Females property. I have not the slightest objec­ in the most fashionable part of the city, tion to this building being in a suburb so that people may have their eyes opened. away from crowded centres of population. We object to criminals going free outside ·we are told that Rand wick is a healthy where they are at liberty to commit crime, suburb, and I believe that that is one of and when we attempt to lock them up you the strongest reasons why this building object because the building depreciates the should be erected. If we are to erect build­ value of your property. vVhy do hon. mem-· ings of this kind, they should certainly be bers not exhibit more Christian charity 1 erected in healthy situations. They should Why not think of the property of other also be erected in places where every people 1 The most healthy spot we can person can see them. There is no neces­ select in this city is the spot upon which sity for any country to put these things we can have this institution. out of sight. If there be a cancer in the Mr. PHILLIPS : Why not put it in the community, let the community know it. bush 1 If you are going to manufacture crimi­ Mr. FERGUSON : Why should you nals, let every one see that you are doing put it out of sight 1 What is the good of so. Let them awaken people to a sense of telling people that there is a certain amount their duty. Persons have no o~jection to of crime when you are doing all you can the racecourse at Randwick, which breeds to cover it up 1 We might just as well say a number of these criminals; but an es­ that we will not publish statistics Lecause tablishment of this kind .is regarded as an it hurts the feelings of people to know that eyesore. We want it to be an eyesore. a certain number of people go wrong every \Ve want people to see it, and then, per· year. If you want to diminish crime you haps, they•may take steps to get it out of will not do so by covering it up, and put­ the road. It is a silly argument for hon. ting it out of sight. Whoever thinks of members to use, that because they have putting churches out of sight 1 You put property in Rand wick this building should them on the best spots you can select-in not be there. What about my property 1 the most conspicuous places. Buildings of Surely I lmve as much claim to the pro­ this sort should be similarly situated. You tection of the state as have these bon. do not oqject to public-houses, race-courses, members. If this building would depreci­ gambling-houses, and Chinese dens being ate property, it would do so, whether it at Rand wick. Why should you object to be in the suburbs or in the city. My con­ this penitentiary 1 I shall vote for this tention is that the building should be in proposal because it will put the building a good healthy spot. in one of the most fashionable parts of the Mr. JESSEP: The hon. member is not city right under the eyes of the people who serious! . say that this sort of th.ing, does not exist, Mr. FERGUSON: The hon. member and that there is no necessity for these ·ought not to complain. The Waverley buildings. If you speak to ·fashionable cemetery has boomed Waverley. Several people in the city they tell you there is no industries, such as the making of tomb­ necessity for this sort of thing. But they stones and iron railings, would never have should know that there i~. You should put been there but for the cemetery. I kn<'lw these buildings under their eyes, so that of no place in the colony which :would be they may take some steps to remedy the better for this building than Randwick. evil. I am surprised 11.t any hon. member It is a fine healthy locality, and it is easily who owns property at Randwick saying got at, and if you are going to have build­ that he will allo\v his private interest. to ings of this sort, they should be in places influence him as against his public duty. where everyone can see them. Why should M.r. MOORE (Bingara) [12-17 a.m.]: they be put aside 1 Why not expose them 1 The speeches of the two last hon. members When a doctor wants to heal a wound he have convinced me that this penitentiary exposes it, so that l1e can see every part ought not to be erected at Rand wick. The of i~ ; he does not try to cover it up. If idea of an hon. member using this argu­ there is a certain amount of crime in this ment : " We do not want to cover up city ; if there is a necessity for gaols, crime ; we want to expose it, so that reformatories, ftnd penitentiaries, the people may know that crime exists. They people should know it. They should be put say there is no crime; put this building in [ J1r. Ferg_uson. . Penitentia1·y and Prison [22 DEc., 1898.] for Females. 4043

"a conspicuous place, so that they may is rather an ornamental one, and I believe know that there is." What sort of argu­ a majority of the people of Randwick­ ment is that~ And then the hon. member not, perhaps, the curled darlings of the for Wickham says that we do not want to place, who live in the principal thorough­ put people in dark dungeons. Does he want fares, and who look upon Randwick as a to put the penitentiary in such a position beau-ideal place for a residence for the thab its inmates would be exposed 'to the wealthy classes-not these, but a great public gaze 1 majority of the people of Rand wick, I be-· Mr. FERGUSON : Yes ! lieve, will be in favour of this proposal, Mr. MOORE: I undertake to say that because it will lead to an immense exten­ few persons will agree with the hon. mell!­ sion of trade in the locality. Whether ber. Our best feelings should induce us that be so or not, I ask bon. members to not to expose these unfortunate persons let the matter go to the Public Works to the public gaze, either for their sake or Committee, where it will be inquired into for the sake of the public. and reported upon. Mr. O'CoNOR : If you followed up that Mr. LYNE: Whose idea is it 1 argument you would have to allow public Mr. YOUNG: I presume it came from executions ! the Justice Department. I admit I have Mr. .FERGUSON: If you had one public not looked into the question of the advis­ execution you would never have another ability or otherwise of the site; I did not execution! look upon it as my duty to do so. I pre­ Mr. MOORE: It seems to me that you sqme Captain N eitenstein and some of the do not want to put a building of this sort officers of the Justice Department have in such a conspicuous part of the city and been looking for a site which will be more suburbs as Rand wick:. It ought )lOt to be easily overlooked by them as a matter of in any populous district. The most sen­ administration, and from that point of sible and the most humane thing to do is view it must be a very suitable site. to put the gaol in an out. of-the-way place, Question put. The House' divided : where you can give the inmates some Ayes, 27 ; noes, 26 ; majority, 1. freedom, and expose them to the sun­ light. If the gaol is surrounded with these AYES. palatial buildings that we hear about, it Anderson, G. Howarth, G. means that the inmates must be kept con­ Archer, ·w. Lee, C. A. Bennett, ViT. MaJ10ny, ·w. H. fined in dungeons so as to be kept from Brunker, ,J. N. Millard, W. the public gaze. The weight of argument Campbell, Archibald Phillips, S. is against the erection of this place in a Carroll, J. G. Price, R A. Carruthers, J. H. Reid, G. H. populous suburb. Cook, J. Spencll, v,r. G. Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary Fegan, .J. L. Stevenson, R. for Public Works [12·25 a.m.], in reply: Ferguson, vV. J. Watson, J. C. Whatever hon. members may think of Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. Young, J. H. Garland, J. 'I' ellen, this proposal, and however much hon. Hawthorne, J. S. Brown, T. members interested in Randwick maybe Hogue, J. A. Nobbs, J. opposed to it, there is surely no harm in NoEs. letting the matter go for inquiry to the Barton, E. Sawers, \Y. · Public vVorks Committee. Clarke, T. See, J. Mr. STOREY : There will be a waste of Holman, W. A. Sleath, R. public money ! Jessep, T. Smith, Samuel .Lyne, W. J. Spruson, W. J . Mr. YOUNG : The public money ex­ McLean, F. E. Storey, D. pended upon the inquiry . will be very MeagheJ·, R. D. Thomas, J. small. It will be open to hon. members .Moore, S. \V. Watkins, D . Morgan, \V. Wilson, C. G. interested in Rand wick, and every man Nelson, A. D. Wood, W. H. who lives in R?-ndwick, and has property O'Conor, 13. B. there, to give evidence before the com­ O'Sullivan, E. W. · Teller8, mittee, and bring forward reasons why in Rigg, \V. Cohen, J. J. their opinion the building should not he Ross, H. Griffith, A. H. erected on the site proposed. The design Question so resolved in the affirmative. 4044 Personal Explanation. [ASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanation.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION. Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I will not allow Mr. MEAGHER: I was not in the it to be done. Chamber this evening when the hon. mem­ Mr. THOMAS : You allowed it to be done ber for Flinders Division referred to some by the hon. member for Puddington a newspaper paragraph. I see that the little while ago. leaders of the House have taken no notice Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : The Clerk wiH of the question, and I myself ignored it, now rea,d the orclflrs of the day. seeing the putrid source from which the Mr. J. C. W ATSO:"' : May I bring this allegation emanated. But as the question point under your notice, sir, that the hon. has been referred to, I now take cognisance member desires to refer to a paragraph of it, and I unhesitatingly demand a royal which appeared in the Evening News commission. to-night, not to wh<1t occurred some clays Mr. O'CoxoR : I rise to order ! ago 7 Perhaps, sir, if you had been aware Mr. MEAGHER : A nice thing to gag a that he intended to refer onlv to that man on privilege. I am raising this as a paragraph, you might have be~n willing matter of privilege. to hear him. Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. mem­ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I refuse to allow ber cannot do so. A period of five days the matter to be referred to. has elapsed, and it is not a matter that is Mr. SLEATH : I wish to say this -­ urgent, nor is it a matter that the House Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER. : I cannot allow can take cognisance of. I rule the hon. any more cliscus~ion on this question. The member out of order. Clerk will read the orders of the clay. Mr. PRICE: Mr. SLEATII : I move, sir, that your Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The matter is ruling be disagreed to. ruled out of order. .Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. mem­ Mr. PRICE : Do I understand that a ber must give notice of that motion. question has arisen this evening in the Mr. SLEATH : I will. House~ . Mr. LYNE : I think that in a peculiar Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : ·will the hon. case of this kind the leader of the House member be seated? There is no question should take some course. It is an extra­ of privilege. ordinary ruling that we have had, and I l\fr. BARTON : May I sugger.t, sir, that think the leader of the House should take although the hon. member ca,nnot raise some course. this matter as a question of. privilege, he Mr. REID : The leader of the House will have the indulgence of the House to cannot take a course which the hon. mem­ make a personal explanation. ber cannot take. Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : The hon. mem­ Mr. LYNE: Yes, he can. lVIr. SLEATH : I think, sir, it is a w:ell­ ber was not referred to in any way. known parliamentary rule that when an Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK : Distinctly. hon. member is attacked he should have Mr. MEAGHER: In the Evening News the right to make a personal explanation. to-day. Mr. DEPU1'Y-SPEAKER : I stopped the Mr. DEPU'rY-SPEAKER : I do not think attack on the hon. member for The Tweed. it is a matter which should be brought I have already ruled that I will not allow before .the House. It is not a matter this matter to be discussed. which can· be made the subject of a, per­ Mr. SLEATH : In the press to-night the sonal explanation. If this sort of thing hon. member has been attacked, and it is allowed, then whenever any hon. mem­ has always been ruled here, so far as I can ber is attacked in a pa,per he ~an come recollect, that an bon. member who is here with t.he paragraph from the paper attacked has the right to make an explan­ and bring it before the House. I do not ation to the House. think it is a proper thing to do, a,nd there­ Mr. J. C. 'VATSO:"': Less than half an fore I will not allow it to be done. hour ago I read in the. newspaper an Mr. Tno~IAS : May I remind you, sir, attack on the hon. member for the Tweed. that you allowed the. hon. member for Where an attack has been made on an Paddington to make a very lengthy state­ hon. member in the press he has always . ment a little while ago? been allowed to explain to the House. Personal Explanation. [22 DEc., 1898.] Personal Explanation. 4045

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already it was doubtful whether the motion was properly ruled that I will not permit it to be done. a matter of privilege, but as it affected the character of a member it could be proceeded Mr. BARTON : With the indulgence of with if it was the pleasure of the House. the House, sir, may not a personal ex­ I do not want to labour the matter in any planation be made~ way, but I should like to move a resolu­ Mr. MoonE : I move that the hon. mem­ tion to the effect that it is the pleasure of ber be Is the motion in order he~rd. ~ the House to hear me on a matter to Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: It is not in which some prominence has be.en given. order. That constitutional authority is very clear . •Mr. SLEATH: I second the motion. on the point. I wish you, sir, to take the Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKJm : The hon. mem­ sense of the House, and therefore I beg to ber is not in order in doing so. move: Mr. STOREY : Mr. Speaker Abbott al­ That it be the pleasure of the House to hear me. lowed the hon. member for Paddington to quote from a newspaper. 1\'Ir. DEPTJTY-SPEAKER : The hon. mem­ ber need not make a motion. Mr. LYNE: This is a very serious matter. Mr. MEAGHER: I beg to refer to a ~fr. REID: The order of the day has ms.tter to which some prominence has been been called on. given, and that is a charge which has been Mr. LYNE : It has not been called on. made, or alleged against me, of a most Mr. REID : The order of the day has heinous and villainous character, and is been read. referred to in the Evening News this even­ Mr. LYNE : This is a very serious matter. ing as quoted from a paper called Truth. I do not know anything about the rq.atter, The charge, to go right to the kernel or but if an hon. member is liable to be ac­ essence, is to the effect that I got two . cused of anything and everything, and is criminals to assassinate a man -- not allowed to get up in his place in the Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : The hon. mem­ House and explain, it is an extraordinary ber is now making a personal explanation state of things. · I understand. Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: When I ruled Mr. MEAGHER: I am making as full the hon. member for The Tweed out of order an explanation as the heinousness of the I thought he was raising as a matter of charge will entitle me in fairness to do. privilege, a question which had. been rai~ed The charge is that I not only suggested, here this evening in regard to somethmg but deliberately proposed, that Sir Julian which was published in Truth; but I un­ Salomons should be got rid of by two ex· derstand now that tile bon. member rose convicts, whom I declared I had in wait­ to refer to something which appeared in a ino- in Crick and Meagher's office ready to newspaper this afternoon, and not to some­ do"' the deed, and that I stated this fact to thing which appeared in Truth. Is that Mr. Crick: so? "I have only to say the word and I have two . Mr: MEAGHER: Incidentally it will. criminals who will make cold meat of Salomous." Mr. Crick states that Mr. Levien was present ; Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Under these cir­ that they both scouted the murderous proposal cumstances I will allow the hon. member with indignant scorn, and that they both de­ to refer to the paper. nounced Meagher to his face for making it•. Mr. MEAGHER: I do not want you, The paper says that Mr. Crick was con­ sir, to be under any misapprehension. The siderably staggered at the thought o~ this, Evening News of this evening refers to a and some time subsequently commumcated question of privilege ; but, of course, my this fact to other people j and then it goes rising here will be valueless unless I can on to say: refer to what is incidentally alluded to in. It was at this ti11te that Mr. Crick became ihe Evening News, and, therefore, I ask awal'e that Meagher was engaged, in conjunction . permission, sir, to call your attention to with another, in spiriting away a Crown witness in an abortion case in which he (Meagher) was this passage in "May," at page 266: retained for the defence ; and that when the For instance, when 22nd July, 1861, a motion· detective went with a warrant to Crick and was proposed concerning the conduct of a mem­ Meagher's office to arrest one of Meagher's ber in connection with a joint stock company, accomplices (probably in the hope of getting the such conduct being wholly unconnected with said accomplice to "blab" aJ:>ont the D~an con­ matters arising in the House, the Speaker said spiracy), Meagher had the said accomplice con• 4046 Personal Explanation. [ ASSEl\fBLY.] Personal Explanation. cealed behind the door of his office, and sent the to wreck either Crick or Norton I would detective off on a false scent by telling him that not bother my head about them. If the said accomplice was somewhere down King­ they said about me to-morrow that I was street, probably at Riley's Hotel. When the manufacturing a bomb to blow up some detective had gone, Meagher secreted his accom­ plice up in the garret at the top of the office, house they were in, I would not bother and afterwards got him concealed for several my head about them. If any allegations Jays in a certain house within pistol-shot of the appertaining in any way to them had ap­ detective headquarters. These facts and cir­ peared in any reputable or respectable cumstances, occurring as they did concurrently with the Dean case disclosures, caused Mr. Crick paper, I should take very quick and ap­ to lose the last shred of his fast-vanishing faith propriate action before this. Having dtl­ and trust in his shady, shaky, shifty partner, termined to ignore their existence, and :Meagher, and detennined him not to allow finding that reputable citizens not only Meagher to drag him (Crick) down with him. scouted the idea as absolutely absurd and The last part is not relevant to the malicious ; when I found that even Par­ former part ; but, in justice to the whole liament paid no attention whatever to it, of the article, I do not want to suppress although the publication has been three or any single portion. I think it is just as four days extant; when I found that the well for hon. members to have the whole leaders of the House took no action, I charge before them. The whole charge, came to the conclusion that they treated as hon. members will see, consists of this: the quarter from which it emanated with That I got two criminals, that I had them the same contempt as I did. So it re­ in my office, that, having arranged with mained until an ordinary member of the them to assassinate Sir Julian '3alomons, House drew attention to it, and immedi­ I then sought out my partner, Mr. Crick, ately I felt it incumbent upon me in who happened to be in conversation with personal explanation to deal with this J\.fr. Levien, that I there told him I had charge, and I ask Parliament fearlessly, got two criminals who were prepared to what I think this House will not refuse make cold meat of Salomons when I said me, that is for a royal commission to in­ the word; that Mr. Crick repudiated the quire into this matter. I may say that as proposal, and denounced me to my face in to the object of these attacks, as far as I the presence of Mr. Levien. Then Mr. am personally concerned, I have no doubt Crick goes on to say that at about that about it. One individual, hearing that time I had an accomplice in an abortion some of my· friends were an:Jeious to take case, who was also in my office. I do not action, which would enable me to appear know whether he says or insinuates that in court, said, " I will take care that he this accomplice was one of the two criminals does not appear in court." "'Whether that -at any rate that I had an accomplice is the object of this stirririg up of the whose name was not mentioned, but whose Dean business, I do not know, but I be­ name I am going to mention to the House, lieve that is the reason. In speaking to with circumstances about which there this House I may say that I have been will be no doubt. This accomplice was in a position which has fallen to the lot interested with me in spiriting a witness of very few men to be in. I have been away. I may say that this charge is con­ in a position which happens to a man tained in a newspaper called Truth, that once in a lifetime. I have been in a posi­ I had not read the newspaper for eight or tion which happens to very few men who nine weeks, but that my attention was are born-that is in a great crisis to called to the article a few days back, with have, on one side, the liberty of a client the result that on Tuesday I cut ou~ the depending on a professional communica­ article. When I heard of the article tion, and, on the other side, having to being in Truth, I entirely ignored it, and divulge that professional communication. determined to ignore Truth and those I have been in that delicate position in connected with it. I considered Norton connection with the Dean matter. I found and Crick as beneath my unutterable con­ that Sir Julian Salomons had been guilty tempt, and, therefore, I determined to of an action which the late Chief Justice take no notice of'them-that if Truth said of Queensland openly denounced in the to-morrow that I was implicated in a B1·isbane Courier as a foul beeach /of scheme of pulling up a line of railway professional confidence. So far as I was [Mr. Meagher. Personal Explanation. [2:3 DEc., 1898.] Personal Explanation. 404T

concerned, I was fighting for a principle­ out of a harmless incident two people have that was the principle of a fair trial to put their heads together in a•foul combi­ which. the humblest felon is entitled. If nation to' down me at any price, who for the humblest felon makes a professional three years I have withstood singly, and communication, and if that communica­ who for the last three or four months I tion is retailed in a professional way, it have withstood when combined, I tell both should be kept as secret as in the case of of them that they will find me fighting the man to whom it was given. \Vhen I with my back against the wall. To this found that Sir Julian Salomons had out­ foul combination my invitation is "come raged that professional communication,. I on." When Mr. Levien's name had been was placed in this position-either to yield mentioned I wrote this note to him. As up that professional communication or to I was sending this note to the paper in my deny it. But I am pleased to say this­ electorate I was anxious that Mr. Levien that, although I did deny in this House should, if possible, give me a reply so that under the circum~tances I referred to, that it might be published concurrently in the I mentioned the matter to Sir Julian Salo­ newspaper in my constituency. As I wish mons, seeing that it was mentioned pro­ to deal with the. matter in chronological fessionally and confidentially, I am pleased order, it will, perhaps, be better for me to say that I found, even upon the trial, to read. my note to Mr. Levien. It is as that· one of the magistrates now upon the follows:- bench-Mr.· Isaacs-not coming to give December 20, 1898. me a character, but incidentally as a Crown Dear Harry,-! have read in Sunday's Truth witness, stated that during the five years a charge by Norton that I suggested to Mr. I had appeared before him he never once Crick the assassination of Sir Julian Salomons, found me misleading the court. I am and had two men ready to do it, and that you· pleased to say that the same testimony is can corroborate it. I ask you, in justice to myself, to say if such given by the leading members of the pro­ is the case .. fession. My life, ever since I have been I certainly remember some three years back to college, has been an open book.. Those a loafer coming to me, and with much earnest­ associated with me at college and in. the ness offering, ·on behalf of himself and mate, to law as articled clerk and professionally kill Sir Julian Salomons. I retailed that fact to l\Ir. Crick and yourself for six or seven years when I was practis­ in no secret way whatever, and most probably ing, one and all can give me the highest in an ironical way referred to its consummation. character for veracity. I am pleased to In those days of excitement, and pestered find even.Mr. Charles Bull stating openly with all kinds of cranks, I attached no ser.ious importance to the communication, and ce~tainly in the box at the vV ater Police Court that did not think either yourself or Mr. Crick did. no matter what the issue of the conspiracy Kindly let me know your impression of the case was the opinion \vhich the profes­ matter, as this attempt to distort a frothy sion had formed of me and which he had ncident into a. revolting proposition is simply formed was that I had never deceived the unbearable. members of my profession or the magis­ Mr. Levien has informed me that he terial bench. That being the case, I do certainly did not remember me referring admit this isolated action under this tre­ to two men that I .had in my office ready mendous stress, done not to benefit me, to kill Sir Julian Salomons, but he re­ but to protect a client ; and as Lord membered me referring to the fact that Brougham has said, a man should stand an offer had been made to me to assassin­ by his client through good and through ate Sir Julian Salomons, and that I re­ ill. The whole of my life is an open bJohn Norton, a gentleman to whose come out after me whose face I knew well, opinion of Mr. Crick for three years I seeing him round at the police court-he shall casually refer. It may seem strange used to run messages for prisoners and do to hon. members that Mr. Crick should odd kinds of work. He said he wanted to have isolated himself as he has done. I speak to me privately. I asked him what he do not wish to deal with the Dean case wanted. He said he wanted to know what extensively, but Mr. Crick has been in the I was going to do with Salomons-" on position of the injured innocent in that account of the way you stuck to our chaps case. Meagher never let him know any­ I and my mate will kill the old so-an-so; thing of his plans. Meagher, for the sake all you h:we to do is to say the word." I of Dean, had to suffer a penalty which said, "All right, old man." I went away did not affect hi!n in any way whatever. across the street. He •followed me, and There was no word about Dean's guilt by said a shilling would be acceptable, and my Meagher when it came to a matter affect­ opinion of him was that he would sooner ing his life; and it does seem a startling assassinate a long beer with a head on it thing that Meagher, who was so anxious than Sir Julian Salomons. That was the to preserve Dean's liberty that he would proposition that was made. On the same not mention to Crick anything that would day, I fancy it was in a hotel, I met thehon. give him any knowledge affecting the guilt member for Quirindi and the hon. mem­ of Dean, should come to Crick and tell ber for vV est Macquarie, and I repeated him everything affecting the guilt of that an offer had been made to kill Sir Meagher, and especially to make a state­ Julian Salomons. It might be in an ironical ment in the presence of three other men way that I referred to its consummation. in the country, leaving four swords of· I do not remember that, but certainly it Damocles, so to speak, hanging in judg­ was nothing in a seriousmanner. Strange to ment ovet• his unfortunate neck. The say the matter was never referred to again. probabilities of that I leave to members· [Mr. Meagl!e?', Personal Ex;planation. [22 DEc., 1898.] Personal E.xplana.tion. 404-9

of this House themselves. But I wish to character that the Sydney press would not state this-that having given the state­ publish them, for fear, most probably, of ment my categorical denial as far as the libel actions. But 2,000 people heard intention may be presumed, having pointed them, and what is more, some of Mr. Crick's out that this statement was made to me friends were present--sent there, so I in such a way that I never regarded it in understand, to hear what Meagher had to a serious light, and that it was retailed by say. Meagher had a lot to ~ay, with me as it was told to me-having cleared which I do ·not intend to weary this up that particuhtr portion of the affair, I House. The tactics of Mr. Crick in going should like to come to a little of what to someone else to try to hang a load may be called the padding of an alibi. round Meagher's neck are borne out by the Crick ;;tates that shortly afterwards he facts. I have a verbatim shorthand tran­ spoke to some individuals, and said that script of every word I said to him. I have Meagher had told hint this thing. With referred to it to refresh my memory. If laymen that might have some weight; Mr. Crick did go to persons as he alleges but those of a legal turn of mind would and said these things, it does not make recognise it to be a mode of faking evi­ the case one whit 'stronger, but it ·shows dence. For instance, if I were going to keen diplomacy and a determination to kill Mr. Price at 9 o'clock to-night, and drown someone at any price so long as he had to walk a mile to do it, and if at could swim. I will refer to a portion of 9 o'clock Mr. Price were murdered, and my speech which deals with Crick's action the next morning I went round to Mr. during the great debate on the Dean case Fitzpatrick and said that I was playing in this House. I repeat the words now, dominoes with my wife from that time up and I will repeat them inside and outside to 11 o'clock, and that I did not go to bed to the end of time. There would have until 11 o'clock, and that I won every been no more light-hearted man in New game ; and if I also went to Mr. Spence South Wales on the morning following the and told that gentleman that 1 was play- 22nd July if Mr. Crick had sued me for . ing dominoes all the time, that does not one word I uttered. To come back to my make the foul lie that I was a mile away · point, I was referring to Mr. Crick's at 9 o'clock any truer. Crick going round interviewing any one else to show that to whomsoever he went and stating that would be in accordance with the policy he Meagher told him that he wished to assas­ pursued during the Dean case in regard sinate Sir Julian Salomons does not to myself. I said that night at the New make it truer because he stated it to any­ Masonic Hall : one. ·The question is, did Meagher say so7 ·when I found a paragraph in the papers on I hope hon. members will see that the the morning of the 26th of September to the point has no relevancy to the question at effect that. the same afternoon the Attorney­ General would lay a statement on the table of all. That Crick having gone round and the House, I wired to my trusty friend, who stated to one or two people, whoever they was at Maitland, to this effect : "Am moYing were, that Meagher had spoken of this adjournment of the House this afternoon to question does not surprise me at all, reply to Sal_omons." That will show you what my idea was then, and this has been the greatest because now that I refer to the Dean case, object-lesson to me-to always depend on my I see quite distinctly that it accords with own judgment-(cheers)-ancl when I reflect, Mr. Crick's conduct all the time when he for four years standing in the front of my pro­ was isolating himself. To show that this fession, meriting the highest encomiums of judges statement, even if it had any warrant at and magistrates, getting desperate criminals out of desperate situations, and rescuing innocent all, should have been made in 1896, I men from perilous positions by my own in­ may mention that shorthand reporters genuity; yet, when it came to my own case, I from the Daily l'elegraph and the Sydney allowed myself to be manacled and butchered Morning !Jerald, and, I believe, also from like a sheep at the shambles (cheers). Well, I knew pretty well what that statement would the Crown Law Offices, reported verbatim be like, so I had composed an anticipatory every word I delivered at a mass meeting reply, which I elaborated in the leader of the at the New Masonic Hall, on the 22nd Opposition's private· room-Mr. Lyne placing July, 1896, in which I made a most it at my disposal the same afternoon when I told him I was replying to Sir Julian Salomons. damning· denunciation of the whole of the Previous to going to the House I received a wire Dean case-denunciations of so strong a from my partner as follows :-"Don't move 13 c 4050 Personal Explanation. [ASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanation. adjournment of the House til! you see me-coming mons, Mr. ·want, and Mr. Justice 'Windeyer; down by this evening's train." 'Yell, stupid and a member of Parliament, Alfred Edelen, people say that it is a peculiar wire to get from interjecting, " Where is Dick Meagher?" Con­ a man who did not know anything till fourteen sidering that Dick Meagher, at half-past 4 days later on, October 8th (loud laughter). As that afternoon, was full of running, and actually a result, in place of being able to jump into the had a speech prepared to reply to Sir Julian Salomons, considering the wire from his partner breach at 5 o'clock to reply to Sir Julian stopped him, and that he had asked members to Salomons, I was compelled to see Mr. Perry, the prevent a debate from lapsing until his partner Opposition whip, and at least half a dozen arrived, and he then dissuaded him, I might well members to keep a debate going in case it should say I was thunderstruck, and I might here say show signs of lapsing, in order that I should be the speech I did deliver on the Tuesday was tt able to move the adjournment of the House far different one to that I had prepared that before Government business commenced. Every Thursday afternoon. (Cheers.) I ask you to one knew I was going to speak ; a Efe1"ald put yourself in my place, full of running as a reporter met me in the lobby and asked me Derby colt, with a philippic against Sir Julian what about Sir Julian Salomons' statement, and Salomons that would have dealt a death-blow to I replied, '' Oh, that is simply a tissue of romance the whole afl"air, dissuaded and then induced to woven out of a very small incident, a page from go home under false pretences, and next morning Balzac. You'll hear me i7 half an hour." The to find a speech attacking everyone stupidly and debttte· fortunately did no~ lapse, and I naturally blackguardly, and laying down a line of cam­ thought my partner, being an oldP.r man-though paign that I was obliged to follow. That was he knew nothing about it (laughter)-might the greatest shock I ever got at such a critical have some points to gi ,.e me. J~ventually he juneture. (Cheers). arrived before the House met at 7 o'clock and he said, "Don't speak to-night, Dick." I said, I have a copy of a verbatim shorthand " 'Vhat ? Give a statement a minute's start it note of the speech, so that there is no takes !t week to overhaul it. This House rises till Tuesday. I am not going to give Salomons doubt about it. This copy is from the five days' start over the wires of this country." report of Mr. Todd, a parliamentary re­ He said, "Now don't speak to-night; they porter for the Daily Tete_qraph. I quite have had two months to compose that state­ believe that. Mr. Orick did go to someone ment, and it is pretty carefully worded and must be replied to guardedly." ''But," I replied, else to say that Meagher had made the " I'm ready to speak, and I want my speech suggestion to him in order that he might <:olumn by column alongside of Salomons' in dissociate himself from Meagher as much to-morrow's papers." However, to summarise,· as possible, and clown him in the same I yielded, and agreed not to speak till next Tuesday night, five days away, and thus dis­ way that he did when he sent me a tele­ appointed a crowded House, who were expe0ting gram, which deterred me from speaking­ me to carry out my promise. I then wrote out from delivering a speech which I had pre­ a memo. for the daily press, which I ga,·e a pared,-when he afterwards took me up friend of mine to deliver. The memo. ran, "Mr. Meagher regrets the forms of the House to the refreshment-room, and advised me preclude him from speaking until a hte hc;mr to go home, on the condition that I ·would when he would not get full publication, and he answer the charge on the next sitting day regrets that he has trespassed so much op. Sir of Parliament; and when having got me Julian Salomons' credulity." That note was out of the way in order to clear himself torn up by my friend, Mr. Crick, as .he con­ sidered that I should give no intimation until I he made a speech, in which he was made spoke on Tuesday next. About 9 o'clock that to appear as the pure, suffering individual, night, he invited me up to the refreshment-room, and Meagher the man to be feared. That and, in the presence of two members of the Orick should go to other persons and make House, urged me to catch my next tram hr;me, and asked me to come in early and we would these allegations .is quite in accordance have a good talk before commencing business, and with his tactics, but it does not assist him stating he also would catch his tram after a while. legally one iota. To show that it is quite I went home and said to my wife : "Alice, the in accordance with his past conduct, I press will be down on me to-morrow morning; you know I told you I was going to reply to will just refer to another incident, and .Salomons in reply to that statement which was that is the declaration that was read here . to have been read according to this morning's I, the murderer, instead of standing at paper. However, Crick has persuaded me not this table, if what Orick says is correct, to speak. I feel! have made a terrible mistake in not giving this~referring to the speech which should be in Darlinghurst Gaol, and every I had in my pocket." \Yhen I got up next hon. member should be. afraid of me. If morning I naturally looked to see what the what Orick has said is correct, it does papers had to say on my silence. Looking at seem strange that he should come here and the Daily 1'elegmph, it nearly dropped out of my hands when I saw a two-column violent weep hypocritical tears when he handed speech by Mr. Crick, attacking Sir Julian Salo- in a declaration by the "friend of his boy- [ Mr. Meagher. Personal E.'X:planation. [22 DEc., 1898.] Personal Explanation. 4051

hood," and had to be handed gently out of of prison for anyone, and that before they could the chamber on account of the deep emo­ get at us, they had to prove Dean guilty of attempted murder, and as Sir Julian Salomons tion he showed over the man who ought acted in a cowardly way in connection with pro­ to be in Darlinghurst Gaol for tt·ying to fes~ional confidence, I would fight him to a bitter kill a man. I refer to this incident to fimsh, and have the public standing at the back show that this attempt of Crick to speak of me. My trusty friend interjecting that I grasped at every gleam of hope, my wife then with someone else is quite in accord with implored me to do as Mr. Crick suggested, and his action three years ago in the Dean not stand by a guilty mn,n, "If," she said, case in connection with the declaration I "George Dean were innocent, I could see you signed. I might just as well, in order to go to gaol rather than an innocent man suffer." (Loud cheers.) My friend all the time impressing make myself clear, refer to the words I her, "Why should I be chained to a murderer?" actually·· used, as they will explain the Afterfurther heartrending scenes, I said, "Alice, matter more fully, and I shall have done do you wish me to admit Salomons is right, and with that particular point. I said : do this ?" She said, " I ask you to do anything, Dick, as long as yon do not go to prison." I On Tuesday morning my wife arrived at the said, "Very well, I will state that George Dean office at the.honr mentioned, ancl for fully three is guilty and that Salomons is correct, on one quarters of an hour all the arguments were condition : that as there is now to he no prose­ brought to bear to show that if we were both cution, that you leave this country for South sent on for trial we would both be what he Africa with me at first opportunity." Turning to termed "fitted"; whereas, as I told Salomons, Mr. Crick I said, ''Bill, you have not acted to ll!e I should do the right thing and shonlcler the lot, in this as I would hn,ve acted to you." (Loncl and should not only get my half share of the cheering.) My wife, through her tea,rs, said she business, but, as long as he carried it on, myself would go to any part of the world with me­ and wife would have an interest in it. I must anywhere, so long as I did not go to prison. say my wife blankly refused to accede to such a proposition. Now, this is a matter I have borne I go on to say that, after some further heart­ in silence for a long time, while ruthless criticism has assn,iled me; but I make it now no secret to rending scenes, seeing that the charge, on this Yast assemblage, and my trusty friend Crick's guarantee, was to be withdrawn knows where he can bring me to test it. He against us on the following dny at court, I then pointed out to my wife that if his view agreed to sign that statement. The result were taken, I would be dealt with under the was that when it came on we were not dis­ First Offenders' Act, and consequently no im­ prisonment could take place ; hut that did charged, or, in other words, the statement not move her. He then said a friend of his was obtained by false pretences. What connected with the bar was intel'viewing Sir I specially object to was not only that Julian Salomons, who, he said, had advised our Crick trapped me by false pretences as arrest, and that he expected some information. After a considerable time had gone by, my regards the declaration, for I had made trusty partner went to the door, in answer to a every arrangement to leave for South knock, and came into the room with a memo., Africa. The reason I did not go to South which he read, to this effect : " That Sir J nlian Africa I think will be seen when I read Sn,lomons says the Crown law authorities only want justice done ; they only want the guilty what I said: man to be given up, and have no wish to injure I then looked at the Hemld and found that the Crick or Meagher, and if justice is done no harm steamship Damascus sailed for Capetown on the comes to Crick or Meagher." I can see now why 30th October, 1895, and I determined to sail by my wife was wanted that morning,, but could not see it before. (Laughter and loud cheers.) her and leave Australia, not that I was ashamed That had no effect with me in this world. of the promptings of my own hea~t, for if they (Cheers.) But while pouring the argument into had been followed there would have been no my wife's ear that no harm would come to trouble for anyone ; but because I felt in sacri­ Dick, there would not even he a prosecu­ ficing myself I had lost my self-respect, and I tion, he suddenly remembered that if we went determined to heave a sigh of relief when Syd­ on for trial, there was such an outcry in ney Heads faded out of sight. (Cheers.) I told the Rofe case about the First Offenders' Act, several friends, who came and saw me that very that the next man convicted for conspiracy night, I was going to South Africa, relying on would be sentenced, and my wife had certain the fact, of course, of no prosecution. I wrote imprisonment on one side or liberty and no out my resignation of my seat in Parliament at prosecution on the other, and, as he remarked, the same time as the declaration. Having a if he had told Sir Julian Salomons he would have man bound hand and foot you would naturally shouldered it. [A voice: "I'm sure he wottld."] think that my late partner, with a declaration (Loud laughter.) Well, every man has a heart, so clear and comprehensive, would have handed and I confessed I felt it when I saw my wife it in like a man. But no ; he makes a whining distracted and in tears. My wife said to me, hypocritical speech, and poured another volley " Dick, I don't care what happens as long as yon into the prostrate body of the man who sacri­ don't go to prison." I said there was no chance ficed and saved him, and finished up by stating, 4052 Pe1·sonal Explanation. [ASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanation.

"That when the friend of his boyhood atoned Crick nor ~Ir. Norton, nor the whole vile to the laws of the country he would leave it for combination of pimps and parasites will ever." Considering " the friend of his boy­ hood "-(laughter)-had taken upon himself an keep me down. -Mr. Daniel Green is the odium under the representation that no laws person referred to as " accomplice." It had to be atoned for, was rather good reading. is true that Crick did not use the name Well, if Mr. Meagher had to remove offal at of Daniel Green, because it would have Glebe Island for lOs. a week, and had an offer of £10,000 a year to manage the gold mines in made it more intelligible, and I mention South Africa, rather than be away from the Daniel Green's name at this stage to show colony he would prefer the little job at Glebe that this policy of Crick to endeavour to Island. (Loud laughter and cheers.) dissociate himself as much as possible is That bears out the view I had-that if borne out by an incident in connection Crick did go to anyone else, it is thoroughly with the Dean case. When we were in accordance with his tactics in connection arrested, Mr. Crick openly stated at the with those two incidents during the Dean police court that Daniel Green was a man case, where his endeavour was to dissociate he would neYer have near him; that Daniel himself-where he got away from me as Green was a man who associated with far as possible as a dangerous man-and Meagher, and that Daniel Green was a yet extracted by all foul and heinous man whom he had kicked down the stairs n1ethods, a matter as to which perhaps his of his office--in fact, I think he swore responsibility may some day be properly to it. As a matter of fact, Crick never located. But leaving that particular ques­ kicked Daniel Green down the stairs of tion alone, I wish to say this, that in his office in his life, and his policy of accordance with this policy of Mr. Crick's repudiation is most strangely shown by is a statement here that ::Yieagher-and I the fact that. immediately the Dean case say this in the hope that the press will was over, hardly were Crick and Green give me bir publication. I am not one of discharged-Green, the man he had kicked those anxious ·to see my name in print. I down the stairs of his office-than he has notice that one paper especially has made Green cheek by jowl with a large bottle a point, where I have taken part in debates of wine, in company with a newspaper in this Chamber, of eliminating my name reporter, down at the Metropolitan Hotel. from the report. I must say to the credit From the day of the Dean case up to the of the two morning pll~pers and one of the present, Mr. Crick-and I had a hundred evening papers, they do give me some fair of witnesses in Sydney to prove it-has play. I am not anxious. It does not been daily in contact with Green, who has trouble me much as to whether they put been up. in his office day after day, in his my name in or keep it out; but one paper private room day after day, out at Rand­ has studiously kept my name out of print, wick to dinner at his private house, has put for what reason I do not know. It does commissions on his horse upon the "tote" not offend me ; but I hope, as this matter and with bookmakers, has been with him to has been broadly made, they will at any­ dinner at the Metropolitan time after time, rate, as far as they are concerned, give fair has been associated with Crick daily for the play in regard to this charge. Mr. Crick, last three years. Daniel Green, the man in order to colour this affair, introduces who, at the time of the Dean trial he extraneous matter by saying that Meagher would never touch, who never went near had an accomplice in some abortion case. his office, whom he kicked downstairs­ The reason I refer to it is this-it is rather the man whom he would not allow within peculiar-the accomplice in the abortion the radius of his respectable presence-is case referred to is no other than a young the man with whom he was cheek-byjowl, man named Daniel Green, and the House and whom he has been cuddling ever since will bear with me while I refer to that the verdict was given in the Dean case, for abortion case later on to show to what a reaso~1s which may be obvious to most horrible length some people will go, not people, but which it is not necessary for only after having discharged a volley into me to dwell upon ! I merely mention it a man's body who had proved too faithful, at this stage to show that the accom­ but how far they will go, when he happens plice referred to was none other than Mr. to be knocked down, to keep him down. Crick's bosom daily friend and companion But I am pleased to say that neither Mr. Daniel Green, who, as I say, has been [Mr. Meagher. Personal Explanation. [22 DEc., 1898.] Personal Explanatwn. 4053

associated with him since the Dean trial All I ask for is for him to keep away from up to the present time. Yet he would me. I am not going to work any vindictive mislead the House and the people into the malice on Mr. Crick, nor any one else. belief that Meagher had some criminal Let him go his way, I will go mine. But located as an accomplice in an abortion case. if he dare to come across my path, he will In regard to the charge made against me, go down." That answer I have given to this charge is made by Mr. Crick in com­ the half a dozen gentlemen who have ap­ pany with Mr. Norton. Mr. Norton says proached me to make up friends with he made friends with Mr. Crick for the pur­ Mr. Crick. Now, I am going to refer to a pose of having this matter investigated. most extraordinary thing, and I do not It is a most extraordinary thing that Mr. know but that I shall give it into the Norton made friends with Mr. Crick at custody of some· individual here, so that the time of the Federal Constitution some there will be no trouble about it. It is four or five months ago, and yet, while he this: Mr. Crick, knowing that I was a made friends with him for this purpose, man who actuallv ferreted out two male-. it is a most remarkable thing that Mr. factors to rob a human being of his life, Norton boomed me to the skies to two that I must have been a detestable and leading residents of the Tweed-Mr. loathsome individual, immediately my pol­ Eastaughfee and Mr. Grime. After he luted presence carne into the Chamber, he had made friends with Crick, Mr. Norton should have been terrified to see a man booms me to the skies to these two gentle­ who in cold blood wanted to kill a fellow men from Murwillumbah as a man whom human being, and who had two villains they should have for their representative. ready to carry out his evil intentions-! And what is more, while I was in Bris­ say he should have trembled at the very bane, the Sunday after the polling, Mr. sight of me in the Chamber, and my very Norton had a complimentary paragraph presence should have almost made him sick, about the "brilliant young Australian." and for me to have the audacity to stand I believe if I had steered a certain politi­ up in thi,:; Chamber and endeavour to take cal course, and allowed myself to be ham­ part in legislation, must have had a horri­ strung, I still would have been the "b~il­ fying effect upon him; for me to have liant young Australian," and I would haYe the audacity to get up and move the second saved mysBlf all this worry and all this reading of a bill to amend the criminal annoyance at the hands of Mr. Norton law; or me, the arch criminal, the man who and Mr. Crick. But I am pleased to say instigated murder, to have the impertin­ that I value my political independence ence, the brutal and, I may say, demoniacal too dearly to submit to blackmailing, and impudence to stand up to move a bill to so long as I am in public life no one will amend the criminal law, should have turned terrorise me in regard to the position I Mr. Crick absolutely into a state of par­ am going to take up. But to reYert to alysis. I cannot prove that he sent any of Crick's conduct. W fl saw him weeping these politicians to make friends. I can­ in Parliament here ; we saw him weeping didly admit that. All I can tell hon. over the man who to-day he says attempted members is, that it is a most extraordinary to commit murder. And he is so solicitous thing that they all opened with the same about the friend of his boyhood that it does preface : "Now, understand Crick has not seem strange that Mr. Crick has sent half said it." Sometimes, as Hamlet says, "The a dozen overtures to me, not stating direct] y lady doth protest too much." I think there that he sent them, because every gentleman was a little too much protesting here. I who has approached me has had this pecu­ have here an envelope, which will not go liar preface : " .Now, look here, old man­ out of my possession, bearing the post­ of course, I don't come from Crick ; you mark of 8th September, and addressed in will understand that-but why don't you a disguised backhand. I introduced the bury the hatchet 1 Shake hands, you two bill .to amend the criminal law in the men." All this has been said half a dozen month of August, and I got this note ad­ times by leading men in this Chamber. dressed to me at Parliament House on the Always my reply has been the same, and I 8th September. I opened it and I found think in this I will be corroborated. I on a copy of the bill I introduced to said, "I wish to do no injury to Mr. Crick amend the criminal law five lines in 4054 Personal Explanation. [ASSEMBLY. J Personal Explanation.

1Hr. Orick's handwriting. I had been as­ "Well, there is no doubt about it; here sociated with 1\ir. Orick for six years as a is poor old Bill, whom I have been associ­ partner and ought to know his handwrit­ ated with, actually taking pride in my ing, and this document I am going to pre­ rising in Parliament. He actually writes serve. ·when I got the note I was so in­ to me; he actually gives me assistance censed that I nearly tore it up, but by some in framing legislation ; actually takes a,n act of providence I put it in my pocket. interest in taking me by the hand, and For the man who for three and a half years giving me a lift up the hill. Dash it all, he has known as this infamous malefactor, I'll bury the hatchet, and when I see him who suggested murder, whose presence in I will shake hands and thank him for the this House must have acted as an absolute kindly spirit in which he sent this note to ulcer in his eyes, whose attempt to move me." I have often been in that state, and a bill to amend the criminal law must, in I think of all men in the world that would his opinion, be really the excelsis of crim­ have hit me here, and I would have done inal audacity-when I introduced the bill it. On the following day, as I walked into I got a gentle reminder in Mr. Crick's the lavatory here, I brushed by him. He handwriting: was facing me; he was walking towards me, Why not look at the recent bill as passed in and he practically stopped to look at me the House of Commons. If the judge does not in a way as if to speak, knowing that I comment the Crown prosecutor might thus defeat must have received that note, as I vms in your intention. the House, and had got my letters. I It does seem an extraordinary thing that brushed by him-ignoring him; clearly the man who knew that I am a criminal showing that this holding ont of the olive should write me a note in his own hand­ branch to me, no matter in how kindly a writing; and I say now that this is 1\ir. spirit, would not make me shake hands Crick's handwriting and his banker will with a man who had butchered me once, prove it, even though the envelope is ad­ but who shall never have an opportunity dressed as it is. I can quite understand to butcher me again. I walked by him, that it would look bad for Mr. Crick to although he practically stopped. I thiuk address the envelope, because the parlia­ I pretty well know why that friendly atti­ mentary messengers, knowing that he and tude was assumed, and it does seem strange I were at daggers drawn, would say, that 1\ir. Orick should adopt this atLitude "Orick is writing to Meagher." The writ­ of helping me as a legislator and giving me ing on the envelope i'l disguised, but good advice. If his charges are correct, here, inside, I have this beautiful sympa­ he should have gone down to the police thetic advice given, why not consult court, not weeks ago, but years ago, for certain authorities, in order to assist me the protection of society, and sworn an in legislation 1 Why, if Orick knew that I information against me. Does he think that was the man he has painted me-that I there are a lot of mules in this House, that was this criminal-he should come· and he can impose on the credulity of the assist me in the public life of this country, hum blest member here 1 Does he think he to act as a legislator, I leave to han. can impose on the credulity of the public members own rational and common sense. by him and Norton joini-ng heads and But the sequel is a very simple one. I may saying, " Here is a statement; now let say that Meagher is a very soft man so far Meagh.er t

for whom, of all men in the world, he should cannot defend themselves), that he is not to have the most profound and deep gratitude. be admitted as an impartial witness in his own cause. Besides, his parliamentary It does seem a. strange thing that Mr. Crick record-- should so far back.as the month of Septem­ ber be actually holding out the olive branch Mr. Norton has now found a new kind of of friendship to an arch-criminal and a moral Hercules. He has now discovered murdererw ho, in place of mo"ving legislation a cleanser of the Augean stables. Let us on the floor of this House, ought to be doing hea:r; his opinion of this moral Hercules not his turn in Darlinghurst Gaol. Now, leav­ twelve months ago- ing that rather peculiar thing out, I come to Besides, his parliamentary record is not such as to induce the public at this stage of his'chequered this matter, that Mr. Crick boasted him­ career to accept him in the role of a reformer at self in the hotels in the city that two men all. And even if the public had been in a had been to·him and offered to do the same mood to receive Mr. Crick in that capacity, his thing as was offered to me. If a royal vile abuse, virulent vituperation of and abomin­ ably outrageous attacks on men whose lives are commission is appointed I will produce a as clean, whose records as clear, and whose word well-known solicitor who was present­ or bond would be taken as readily as his own, there was also a barrister present too, but deprived him of even the semblance of right to he happens to be away from town--when respectful consideration either by the people or Mr. Crick, in his braggadocio style, said Parliament. This Han.sa?"cl conclusively shows. that two men had been to him to " make Probably it is just as well for the public cold meat of Salomons," the very words he to understand the two men who now put uses here. Crick has not told us a word their heads together to raise this charge about that; but I undertake, if a royal against Meagher. It is interesting to know commission is appointed, to produce a well­ the opinion of Crick on Norton and the known solicitor who informed me to-day opinion of Norton on Crick. Now hear when he said "Why, Dick, he is putting the opinion which Mr. Norton formed of this down to you. Why, he told me in Mr. Crick: the presence of a certain gentleman who is All this vitupemtion and wild assertion may or a barrister that two men had actually been may not be true, but it is only right to point to him to do it." If a royal commission out that their mere utterance by Mr. Crick under cover of parliamentary privilege does not is appointed I shall have much pleasure incline the public to belie,·e them, for the very in calling these gentlemen to give evidence simple reason that Mr. Crick has too often abused in regard to the question. I simply want public confidence by the abuse of parliamentary to say, in conclusion, that Mr. Crick and privilege in this wanton fashion. It cannot be forgotten that he has had a most peculiar, and, in Mr. Norton have concocted-I say ad­ certain respects, discreditable parliamenta.ry visedly--a diabolical conspiracy to injure career. Whilst in an alleged drunken fit he me, a most diabolical conspiracy to throw made charges of corruption against Mr. Speaker dust in the eyes of the public; bnt they Abbott and Mr. Ninian Melville (then Chairman of Committees) in connection with the Broken have overshot the mark. Let us see the Hill Water Supply. He was ignominiously ex­ combination. For three and a half years pelled fmm Parliament, and sought and secured l\'Ir. Norton has been giving his opinion of re-election mainly on a promise to make good Mr. Crick, and as Mr. Norton says in the his charges, if re-elected. He has never made good these charges, but virtually recanted them. interests of the public he saw Mr. Crick in Then he has frequently made gross attacks upon order to get a full statement from him upon judges and other public as well as upon private this particular case. Let us see what the persons under cover of privilege. In connection opinion of Mr. Norton is of Mr. Crick. In with his trial for conspiracy in the Dean case he declarecl in Parliament that either he or the Hon. the issue of Truth RO far back asJ une, 1897, J. H. Want would have to leave public life. Mr. Norton in an article called "A Gam­ Mr. Want is still in Parliament, so is Mr. Crick, blers' Parliament," thus gives his opinion and if the public had to choose between the two, of the reliability of his bosom friend and it .would not be hard to predict on whom its choice would bll. Besides, has not Mr. Crick underground strategist, Mr. Crick. 1\:lr. boasted in his place in Parliament that he had Crick moved the adjournment of the often been drunk, and hoped or intended to be House, and Mr. Norton says: drunk as often again? Can the statements of Of the mover we wish to speak without bias or such a nmn concerning others, though made prejudice. It must be pointed out, however under cover of parliamentary privilege, carry (especially in view of his reiterated outrageous any weight even against "tote" men, some of attacks, under the safe cover of parliamentary whom declare that they would deem it no honor privilege, upon better people than himself, who to be seen in ll'lr. Crick's company 4056 Personal .Explanation. [ ASSEMBLY.J Personal .Explanation.

Well, Mr. Norton's opinion of Mr. Crick the hon. member for West Macquarie even in print is that he has made out­ boasted openly, "True enough, Norton rageous charges against the officials of this was ready in the morning with the links House and has recanted them, and that of evidence provided. Of course I knew on account of his attitude here, and his he faked them up during the night, but drunken habits and conduct he is a man· that was no business of mine." That is in whose company even a "tote" man the opinion of the bon. member for \Vest would be ashamed to be seen. Mr. Norton Macquarie as to Norton. As we are talk­ at the conclusion of the J\

you wait. The position was this: About conspiracy case. The charge against the time of the Dean case-just before we Green in that case was absolutely without were arrested-there was an abortion case foundation, and might just as well have against a woman called Myra Heaven. been laid against any member of this There was a witness called Hill. As a Honse. _ The charge against him in con­ matter of fact strong efforts were made to nection with Myra Heaven's case was convict Myra Heaven, and this man Hill even less substantial. The hon. member either went away or something happened for West Macquarie describes him as this to him. At any rate the police in charge accomplice. He says, "Mr. Meagher told of the case endeavoured to prejudice Myra the detectives that the accomplice was Heaven's case by having Green arrested on not there." It was a·bogus charge against account of Hill not being present at some Green, and he was no accomplice. To portion of the trial. There was a warrant put Green on trial on a foundationless out for Green. As a matter of fact, Green charge would have defeated the ends of was an outside Clerk employed by Crick and justice in Myra Heaven's case. There­ Meagher, although Crick had said that he fore, Green's keeping out of the way until had kicked him downstairs. There was no Myra Heaven's case was finished, and conviction against him. His brothers stand then coming out and asking them to pro­ high up in the Public Service, and he comes ceed in his case was a wisfl and just pro­ of one of the ])est families in the place. ceeding. To show what a foundationless He has never been in gaol. He is a man proceeding it was to make the charge in about town ; and as, in criminal trials, it connection with Myra Heaven's case, they is well to know the characters of people, actually took the warrant out to arrest in a semi-private detective way Green Green, not on the oath, but on the state­ could give us information which was use-• ment of an old criminal named Hill, who, ful. The detective in charge of the Myra in the witness-box at Darlinghurst, actu­ Heaven case attempted to prejudice the ally denied the statement. I will ask trial by taking out a warrant against permission to read a few lines of the pro­ Green. I was told of tl;w.t, I think, by a ceedings to show what a monstrous mis­ member of the profession. Green, in the carriage of justice it would have been if ordinary way, came into my office in the Green had been convicted on such an afternoon of that particular day. To show information. Green was a man who was how correct I was in my information, I never in gaol in his life, and there was no said to him, "Have you been doing any­ more foundation for the charge against thi·ng in regard to this case of Myra him than there would have been against Heaven 1 They have a warrant out any member here. Green kept out of the against you and Hill." He said, "What w~ty until Myra Heaven was tried on the had I better do ? " I said, " Wait until charge of abortion. The man Hill, who she is tried first, and then come out and had been in gaol as many times as he had surrender to the warrant." While I was fingers and toes, gave evidence at Myra speaking to him, a detective called at the HPaven's trial. Mr. Wade, the Crown office and wanted to know if Green was prosecutor, called him, and I will quote there, and I said Green was not there, and the proceedings from the Sydney ~Warning told him to go down the street. Here was 1/emld, of October, 1895, to show how a case of a man again.% whom an informa­ innocent Green was of this particular tion had been charged. It was afterwards charge, and to show how the hon. member proved without foundation by the Crown for West Macquarie would take Green to prosecutor himself. It would have been a his bosom, and make him his dearest friend, most extraordinary thing to hand a man and yet at a moment's notice he is ready over to the police, in order to prejudice a to reproach him by classing him as an case by having him detained on a bogus accomplice. No one knows better than charge. They went to the other side of thfl hon. member for West Macquarie that the street and Green left, and he was in this evidence was given at Darlinghurst. a friend's place until Myra Heaven's case The ·charge was laid against Green that was tried. After Myra Heaven's case he had attempted to spirit Hill away. had been tried, mark you, there was a Hill was put into the witness-box, and warrant out against Green for the Dean the Crown prosecutor, after the jury had 4058 Personal Explanation. [ASSEMBLY.] Personal Explanation. retired, asked that the witness Hill should The charge was that this man was sent be called, as he wished to ask him a few · away, but he voluntarily came back to be questions. It was on Hill's statement present at Mrs. Heaven's trial. that the warant was taken out against This was not true, although witness did go to Green. The witness was brought into Ryde, and from Ryde to Hawkesbury, and then on to Brisbane. He declined to say where he court. got the money from. He did not get the money "lb·. Wade : Do you know a man named Dan honestly. It had nothing to do with the charge Green ?-Witness: Yes. of conspiring to defeat the ends of justice.. He In whose employ is he ?-I believe he is in the got the money outside of Green altogether. Be employ of Messrs. Crick and Meagher, but I am came back from Brisbane a few days ago in not sure. order to be at the court on the 30th September. Mr. Edmunds, who had heen appearing for He went to Brisbane to look for work, and he the accused in the case just tried, objected to was there a week. He did not know why he an inquiry being held behind the backs of certain did not start for Brisbane frum Sydney. He parties. His Honor said that at present no one started from Rycle because he wanted to go that had been implicated, but if there was any reflec­ way. tion on any one he would see that they had an opportunity of answering the charges. Hill, in This is the whole of the evidence g1ven answer to Mr. \Y ade, said he saw Green towards in answer to Mr. W acle. A bogus charge the end of September. He spoke to him, .but was made, and the only witness, Hill, Green gave him nothing. voluntarily came back and made this The detectives were arresting Green be­ statement, yet Crick tells us that Meagher cause it was alleged that he gave Hill spirited away a witness who was an ttc­ money to leave the country. Now, Hill complice with him, whereas, ·when we was on his oath, and it was not a drunken go into the matter, we find that the per­ statement extracted by the police. In son concerned is none other than Crick's answer to Mr. Wade, he went on to say: bosom friend and a,ccomplice, Dan Green, They met in an hotel at the corner of King his turf commission agent. I think I and Castlereagh streets. He made a statement have dealt with this matter as fully as I after his arrest, but it was not true, except the possibly can. I am sorry that Mr. Crick part in which he said he had a conversation with is not present, because I intend now Green. He did not recollect what Green told him. He told Detective West when he arrested shortly to conclude by saying that in him that Green promised to give him a tenner regard to criminals, Crick knows more if he went away, but that statement was not about them than I do. In the Dean trial, true. there w:1s a high official connected with Here was the sole and only witness to the case who is supposed to have had take away Green's liberty; and when he some connection with a girl many years is put on his oath he actually admits that ago He acted honorably to her, but he had made a bogus statement to the Crick, knowing that certain notes had detective. The reason why is clearly passed from hin1 to her at Bathurst, inti­ shown. mttted to me his intention to buy those He told West the truth at first, and he did notes from the unfortunate creature. The not believe witness, so he told another story. result was th~Lt after offering his gold to He told "\Vest at first that Green had this unfortunate woman, he found she nothing to do with the matter, and as would not sell the letters to him. To her West would not believe him, he told him honor be that said. And let me say this, another story, upon which "\Vest took out that at Darlinghurst, to several :::olicitors, a warrant. Crick read seven or eight notes written by this gentleman, and referring to this · He admitted that he told \Vest tha,t Green gave him £10 in notes and the price of his fare matter of seventeen years ago. The writer by train to Brisbane, but that was all untrue. has since acted honorably to the woman. He also told \Vest that he accepted the money, He has educated his progeny, and has done so as not to give evidence against Mrs. Heaven. all that a man could possibly do in the cir­ He had invented the story, because he thought he was not going to be arrested. He thought cumstances. The notes which Mr. Crick when he made the statement that West would was so busy reading to all the solicitors not arrest him. He told Detective West that and barristers at Darlinghurst redound to Green asked him to go to Brisbane, and tha.t the the credit of the writer. Crick himself best wa,y would be to take the boat to Ryde then to go from Ryde by train to the Hawkes­ told me that he tried to buy the letters, bury, where he would catch the train to Brisbane. but the poor creature-and her circum- [Mr. Meagher. Personal E:r;planation. [22 DEc., ~898.] Crown Lands Bill. 4059

stances were very low-refused for gold J .. H. "Want, the Attorney-General, was to sell them. Orick then intimated to making inquiries. This same man, Orick, me that he intended to send somebody was afraid that the body might be exhumed up to ·steal them, and he did employ a -this person who had daily received letters man. Let him deny this. . He did em­ at Darlinghurst while the trial was on. ploy a criminal to go to Bathurst, so he He talks to me of an intention to murder. tells me, and it is the only truth that one I invite a royal commission. All I have can get when talking of a criminal, and to say to Orick is that Meaghet· has not the woman's house-Mrs. Glass's house­ finished with him. He is s::tid to be look­ was opened surreptitiously, and these let­ ing for a portfolio, and on the day which ters were stolen. Three of them acci­ brings him his portfolio, Meagher. will dentally got mixed up with my papers. bring something into this Chamber which At the conclusion of the Dean trial Orick, will astonish people. "But sufficient unto who was acquitted before me, was so busy the day is the evil thereof." I shall keep showing the contents of all . these notes this note which h11s been written to me by round, because they might give pain to a Orick, I sh11ll keep the letters purloined man who was discharging his duty­ from the woman at Bathurst by Orick, until thinking that it might give pain to him, the royal commission is over. In conclu·­ he was. so busy in reading them that sion,I have todenyanycharge of attempted three of them got among my papers, and injury to Sir Julian Salomons. The matter · many months afterwards when I opened occurred in the way I have related. I them I found the letters there. When am extremely sorry that Orick did not the proceedings of the royal commission think it worth his while to be present. are finished I shall hand them back to the But the suggestion was made to me by woman, whose house was opened in the a loafer in the way I have described. way I have described. A box was bur­ Such a thought as th:1t never entered into glariously broken open, and those letters my mind. It was suggested to me. I were stolen by Orick through the agency conveyed it in no secret way to Orick, of a criminal. The letters bear the signa­ and, I believe, Levien was present. As a ture of a high official. I do not want to matter of fact, the thing never bothered go any further into that matter. But I me. From that day to this-beyond a, do say this: that of all men who should jocular remark in my own home to some talk of criminals the hon. member should private friends-I have never thought of be the last. He should be the last man it, and, if Orick thought it was genuine, to say that Meagher was· a would-be his posit'ion was not to curry favour by murderer. Let him understand this : that writing this suggestion to as~ist me as a in his allegations against me he has not only legislator, but to take proceedings against butchered me, but neither man or woman me. I am very sorry if any one should is safe with him. Since he makes this foul have been misled by whatiretailed of what charge against me, let me say that in the was told to me. The two criminals were month of December letters were coming never in my office. I never offered to up to Darlinghurst Court from a woman assassinate Sir Julian Salomons. I give who earned her livelihood in a George­ my statement fully and frankly, and I street bar, with whom Orick was intimate, think the House and the country will see who subsequently went to another bar in that there has been a conspiracy and a another street, who subsequently became diabolical combination on the part of Orick ill in the month of December, 1895, and and Norton to injure me. I ask, in all who was said to have died of peritonitis. fairness, for the appointment of a· royal Orick 'yas frightened out of his senses, and commission. a doctor, who afterwards left the colony for a couple of years, gave a certificate that CROWN LANDS BILL. the woman died of peritonitis. Those who In Committee; consideration of Legisla­ are in the "know" know what sbe died of. tive Council's amendments : There is one man who in the beginning of every year ought to fall down on his knees, [Mr. O'SuLLIVAN, Temporary-Chairman. J as he did in his terrible sweat in the be­ Mr. CARRUTHERS (St. George), ginning of 1896, for fear that the Ron. Secretary for Lands [2·22 a.m.]:. There 4060 Land and Income 'lax · [ASSEMBLY.] Declaratory Bill.

are only two amendments in this bill. Mr. J. C. WATSON : Mr. Speaker ruled The first is in clause 1. The Legislative at the time that it was not a money bill! Council has inserted the words "after Mr. B,EID : I deliberately put the the commencement of this act." Those machinery of the land and income taxation words were not necessary. They do not system into a separate measure so that the alter the me

• 4062 Land and Income Tax [ASSEMBLY.] Declaratory Bill.

regard to the description we had the other ment as a matter of honor. Fortunately, morning, inasmuch as if this is a revenue I do not know that one exists; certainly bill, this is a strange inroad upon all the there are none of any importance. vVhere constitutional principles which the right we have agreed with a man that his case · hon. member has been advocating, and should be held over pending the decision advocating with wonderful insistency. of another case, of course it would be the That we should now be asked to accept grossest breach of faith to take advantage these amendments made by the Legislative of such an arrangement, even if we had Council I s;ty is a remarkable proposition, power, and to make the agreement a source and I am going to accept it.. But what be­ of wrong to him. comes of all the career of the hon. member, Mr. I.YNE (The Hume) [2 45 a.m.] : his bitter antagonism to, and his tremend­ This is a bill which has been considerably ous fury against, the Legislative Council? altered, and which has either increased or What becomes of all that he has heen saying decreased taxation. during the last four or five years1 Is it true, Mr. REID : Incidentally ! or is it not, that a bill which was to deal Mr. LYNE : Directly. I feel that this with the revenue in such a way as to increase House, through the guidance of the Prime. it, has been amended by the Legislative Minister, has given away all the true Council, largely affecting the hon. mem­ privileges that it had; and were it not that ber's proposal1 It is true that the amend­ we are not in a fit state to consider this or ments might have been worse. The right any other bill, I should proceed to force hon. member says, like the lady in a cele­ the matter to a decision as to whether brated story, "It is only a little one," but this House is to give up all the privileges these are amendments in a taxHtion bil'l, which the Premier is said to be fighting and it is of no use, simply because the word for. It is not a proper thing to ask the " declaratory" is used, and that the words House at a moment's notice to accept "intention of the House" are used to think amendments which practically make this that it will take away the character of the a new bill-amendments which are not measure. How was it introduced 1 Was printed, and which have not been sub­ it not introduced by all the formality that mitted to the Chamber, and which hon. accompanies taxation bills? The result members have not had an opportunity to of it all is, that the provisions for revenue read. No hon. member knows, not even is affected, and affected largely, and the the Prime Minister, exactly what the right hon. gentleman tells us again that it amendments are. The right hon. gentle­ is only "a little one." The hon. member man said that clause 4 had not been says it is nothing, but let anybody look at it amended, but I find that clause 4 has been and say whether it is nothing. Is it not amended very seriously. Chtuse 4 !la~:~ a fair and reasonable thing for us in this been added to by about a page ! House to say that the course of action on Mr. REID : Yes, those are the exemp­ the part of the head of the Ministry, which tions that I have read out to the House! has been a continuous attack upon another Mr. BAHTON : Clause 4 is not amended, house of the legislature, is now shown to but clause 5 has been replaced by some­ have been nothing more nor less than· a thing which alters the whole thing- deliberate sham 1 Mr. F. B. SUTTOR (Bathurst) [2-43 Mr. LYNE : The Council have added a.m.] was understood to say that he had at the end of clause 4 these words : been given to understand that in the other Nothing in this act contained shall affect the decision of the Privy Council in the case of the Chamber cases which had been allowed to Commissioners of Taxation against Teece, or the stand over by agreement with the commis­ decision to be given by the Privy Council in the sioners, pending the decision of the court, following cases now pending :-The Commis­ had been brought under the operation of sionersof Taxation against Charles Grant Tindal; the Commissioners of Taxation against the Broken the act. Hill Proprietary Company (Limited), and the Mr. REID: As I explained in cases where Commissioners of Taxation against the Broken the commissioners have arrived at a special Hill Proprietary Block Ten Company (Limited), agreement with an individual taxpayer, or those cases now before the Court of Review which would be governed by the decision of the. that his case should be decided by those Privy Council given or to be given in the afore­ other cases, we carry out that arrange- mentioned cases -- l }.{r. Barton. Land and Income Tax [22 DEc~, 1898.] Declaratory Bill. 40&3

I am surethereisnot a member in the Cham­ decision in those cases-if these amend­ .ber who knows, from the explanation of the ments only apply to 1897, then I think Prflmier, what the amendment is. It would they are of very little value at all. The ta,ke some little time to follow these amend­ principle which I objected to was the retro­ ments, and to see how far reaching they spectiveprinciplP-, which was introduced to were ; and they should haYe been printed, a degree which we have never seen before. and hon. members should have had an I object to the acceptance of the Council's opportunity of considering them before amendments. I think that this bill is a being asked to vote. The Premier says money bill, and that we should maintain that the reservation in the clause only the rights of this House ; but, if the Go­ applies to the year 1897, that the Broken vernment are prepared to whittle them Hill Company, the Mutual Provident So­ away, all we can do is to protest when ciety, and all the others will have to for­ there is only a handful of hon. members feit the money for the other years, ex­ here to deal with this important legislation. cepting the year 1897. If that is so it, If the amendments onlv deal with that one is a very liJerious matter. I fought the bill year, and in the meag~e way in which the in the House on one contention only, and Premier says they do, they are not worth that was that it was extreme retrospectiYe anything at all, and we need. not have any legislation. The money was paid by these bother about them. If they apply gener­ companies under protest, and one case was ally to cases where money has been paid taken as a test case,. the decision in which under protest, and these cases have been would govern all the others. If this bill taken as cases to decide the others, I am is so framed that these indiYiduals or quite satisfied. . . companies will have to pay in respect of Mr. BART 0 N (Hastings-Macleay) every year, except the one year of 1897, [2·58 a.m.] : The Prime Minister denied then the amendment does not effect what that the amendment at the end, o£ clause I have contended for in this Chamber. The 4 is one applying generally, instead of only members of the Legislative Council, deal­ applying to the year 1897. ing with this matter calmly and deliber­ Mr. REID: No. If the hon. and learned ately, would not perpetrate such an ab­ gentleman knew the facts, he would see at surdity as.not to amend the bill, so that once that there is no necessity for any mis· it would apply to all the past years when understanding. Takethecaseof the Broken this money has been .paid under protest. Hill Proprietary Company, with the large I should like the leader of the Opposition amount of £15,000 a year. Over three to say whether or not, in his opinion, years have elapsed; they have only brought this amendment will prevent the com­ an action in respect of one of those three panies from paying beyond the year 1897. years. They have not brought any proceed­ As the hon. member for Bathurst stated, ing in respect of the other two. some promise was made in the Legislative Mr. BARTON : --- Council to induce bon. members there to Mr. REID : I do not care what they vote for the bill, that other cases pending reckon. All I know is that there is no which could not be put in the bill would case either pending or decided except in be dealt with in the same way as those reference to one year, and we are not cases which have been dealt with by the under any engagement with them to ·make courts or the Privy Council. the other years abide by the decision in Mr. GARLAND : The amendment says so! the case of the one year. If we were, we Mr. LYNE; I have not had an oppor­ would be bound to return the three. We tunity to see the amendment. It shows are not under any such obligation or under­ the necessity for not hurrying a matter of standing. This clause speaks only of this kind through the House so rapidly as cases. They have not brought before the the Premier wishes to do. If the amend­ Court of Review even the other two years, ments made by the Council only apply to that hon. gentlemen will see that in no tl.le year 1897, and if in all other cases sense therefore can the other years be where the money has been paid under pro­ spoken of as years the subject of a case test, and as the Premier has said, action pending. If they had brought cases for has been stopped with the concurrence of the three years against us separately even, the Taxation Commissioners, pending the and those cases were in existence at the 4064 Land and Income !l'ax [ASSEMBLY. J Declaratory Bill. present time and pending, I quite admit find that I am laughed at by the Prime that they would be covered by this clause; Minister, because he laughs at all prin­ but the fact on which I rely for my state­ ciples. ment is that there is only one case in the Mr. REID : The hon. member cannot be case of the Broken Hill Proprietary Com­ serious! pany, and that case is only for one year. Mr. BARTON: I am so serious that I Mr. BARTON : We al'e told in this think it is almost impossible to conceive addition to clause 4 : of any government endeavouring to inter­ Nothing in this act contained shall affect the pret a bill of this kind, even if the law decision of the Pr! vy Council in the case of the allowed them to interpret it so, in such a Commissioners of Taxation against Teece, or the way as to follow out the decision of the decision to be given by the Privy Council in the following cases now pending :-The Commis­ act, as well as the decision of the court, sioners of Taxation against Charles Grant Tindal, with respect to a particuhr year. the Commissioners of Taxation agair.st the Mr. GAHLAND: Is not that what the act Broken Hill Proprietary Company(Limited), and says 7 the Commissioners of Taxation against the Broken Hill Proprietary Block Ten Company Mr. BARTON: I do not think it is. I (Limited), or those cases now before the Court do not think it is the effect of the act, and of Review which would be governed by the if it were, and the Government were decision of the Privy Council given or to be chargeable in any way with bringing about given in the aforesaid cases. such a modification in the act as that, they We are now told by the Premier that, be­ would be chargeable with something more cause each of them referred to the income serious than I would like to mention. This of a particular year, because they could bill is a revenue bill, and we find the Go­ 1iot be brought forward in any other way vernment in this position : :For the lll.Ht except in reference to a year, the whole of four or five years it has been living on the the operation and effect of this amend­ cry of the iniquities of the Legislative ment is that only the income for that par­ Council, and it is prepared to swallow as ticuhr year is affected, and not income much as it can get in a dose. derivable fro111 a series of years. If that is Mr. REID [3·3 a.m.]: I only want the way in which the Government looks to make one observation in reply to the upon its obligations, the Government will very offensive observation of the hon. and -of course it has not done so yet, and, learned gentleman, who, I admit, very therefore, I will not be chargeable with seldom indulges in such obset·vationR. I using strong language in that particular suppose the conscience of the Legislative way-it will run a tight race with any Council on matters of this sort is about as experienced swindler in the country. sensitive and refined as any conscience in Mr. REID·: That is a, nice expre;;sion to the world. In the other Chamber I am in­ use! formed that therewasanendeavour to make Mr. LYNE: It is a true thing to say ! this bill cover cases where objections were Mr. BARTON: Either the intention is lodged in the department, although cases that the law shall be obeyed, and when havenotactually been brought. That matter once the law is decided that the principle was fully debated in the Council, and that governing a case is to have operation, or view was not carried into effect. In other the intention is that, notwithstanding the words, the claim that such cases should meaning and effect of the law as laid be covered by this bill was rejected. H down by the authorised tribunals, the Go­ our friends in the other Chamber are vernment is to slip out of the effect of willing to take that view of the position, that law on the plea that, although you it is hard that it should be called the view cannot raise a case except on the income of an experienced swindler. of a particular year, having so raised it Mr. BAHTON : I said I acquitted the Go. you are restricted to that year, and you vernment of any intention to do anything are not entitled to have the effect of the which would look like the course of an decision of the court in respect to other experienced swindler ! • years to which the same principle applies. Mr. REID : The hon. and learned mem­ That would be a most dishonorable and ber said if the Government took that course most criminal position for any govern­ they would take a course which would re­ ment to take up. I am quite prepared to semble that of an experienced swindler. [Mr. Barton. Land and Income Tax [22 DEc., 1898.] Declaratory Bill. 4065

That course, which the hon. member spoke ceeds. However, I can assure the House of in that way, has been put into law by that this matter has been fully discussed, both houses knowingly. and I will take the responsibility of the Mr. LYNE : It is not so ! bill. I am quite satisfied with it under Mr. REID : Of course the hon. mem­ the circumstances. Considering the endea­ ber will say that is not so. He always vours that were made in various ways to contradicts. bring about a different result, and con­ Mr. LYNE: I have been informed that sidering the very narrow majority we had it is not so! on this question about giving the exemp­ Mr. REID: I have been informed that tions, I think under the circumstances we it is, and I am making an official utterance. ought to accept the bill. What comparison can be made between Mr. LYNE (The Hume) [3·8l: The the hon. member's utterance and mine 1 hon. member has made a statement that Mr. LYNE: My utterances are true! this has been thoroughly discussed, and Mr. REID : They may be; but I have that members of the Legislative Council never taken the trouble to inquire, and I deliberately put this in. I have· been in­ am glad the hon. member gives himself an formed on quite as high authority as the excellent character. To show that this hon. member, that certain members of the course is not so questionable, and so devoid Council did not understand it in that way, howing the lines on which the bill pro- proved that it was. That shows he has 13 D 4066 Land and Income Tax Declaratory Bill. not had time to look through tl1e amend­ I have read the clause which was sent to ment. The Prime Minister, who has charge Council. The whole of it has disappeared, of the measure, ought to know somflthi;;g and this is what had been put in its place: about it, and ought not to make such an No deduction of land-tax under section lO of egregious blunder. This is practically a the principal a~t shall be allowed in respect of new bill, and we really do not know mortgaged land not situated inNew South \Vales. what it contains. There was an important That is the clause as it now stands. I clause-No. 2-which went up to the cannot follow rapidly the other alteration:> Council, but I do not know what has hap­ that have been made, but here we have a pened to it. long, elaborate clause which must have Mr. BARTON : It has been knocked out been inserted with some definite purpose and something put in which is not the completely omitted and a line and a half fiftieth cousin to it ! substituted. Mr. L YNE : If we had time to look i\fr. ItEm : An excellent amendment ! into the new clause we might know what Mr. LYNE: The hon. member does not it is, but I cannot follow it at present, care what it is so long as he can put any­ Mr. GARLA::-

7 in one division and a majority of 8 in occasionally from the venerable gentlemen a-nother division, asserted the principle of upstairs about the necessity of amending that taxation. We now find amendments clauses which go from this ·chamber, and made which completely alter the bill, and yet I must say that, although I am in which infringe the constitutional rights of agreement with the proposal in the new this branch of the legislature. Clause 1 clause which has been inserted, that bet­ has been altered out of recognition. Clause terment should be charged in respect of 2 has been materially altered. Clause 4 the line going through private lands until has been added to so as to materially alter it is a payable concern, the form in which the effect of the bill. they have inserted that proposition is Mr. CoHEN : The very amendment that about as involved and incomplete as it is the hon. member voted for last night is possible to conceive. One of the new now in the bill ! clauses provides : Mr. PR.ICE : The very amendment I The provisions of the acts relating to Grown voted against. I will content myself by lands which apply to the payment and recovery voting against the action which is being of rent for such hwd shall apply to the payment and recovery of such additional rent. taken. Question resolved in the affirmative. If the clause is to be effect,ive, it must . Resolution reported, and adopted. apply also to collections of the betterment tax, in respect of privately-owned land. I do not see how the clause in that sl1ape is KOORAWATHA TO GRENFELL RAILWAY BILL. going to be workable, unless the judges In Committee; consideration of the Legis­ put a very wide and liberal construction lative Council's amendments: upon it. Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary Mr. YouNG : If we do find it unwo"rkable for Public ·works [3·32 a.m.l: Hon. mem­ we shall have to ask for an amending bill ! . bers will probably have seen the amend­ Question resolved in the affirmative. ments made by the Legislative Council in Resolution reported and adopted. this bill. They are almost on the same line as clauses we have inserted in other bills BYROCK TO BREWARRINA RAILWAY. in this House. For instance, one amend­ BILL. ment has reference to the giving of the .Jn Onmrnittee; consideration of Legisla­ land by the people affected by the rail­ tive Council's amendments : way. Another amendment proposes to [Mr. O'SuLLIVAN, Tempora,ry-Chairman.] a-ffect the rental in respect of Crown lands. Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary I am prepared to accept the amendments for Public Works [3·39 a.m.J,rose to move: rather than lose the bill. I may mention That the Committee agree to the Legislative that there is sometimes delay in the carry­ Council's amendments in the bill. ing out of a work of this description, when He said : The amendments in this bill are we provide that the people holding the practically the same as those moved in the land shall give it, because it takes a con­ preceding bill, except that there is no pro­ siderable time to make the nP.cessary viso requiring the land needed for the rail­ arrangements. That, however, is not my way to be given to the Government, fault. I do not know that it will delay because the line will go through Crown the construction of the railway for more land nearly the whole way. An amend­ than a short period, and I do not think ment has, however, been inserted provid­ that any greatdamagewill be done. I move: ing that the lessees shall be charged an That the Committee agree to the Legislative additional rent until the railway becomes Council's mnendments in this bill. a paying one. I do not know how that Mr.J. C. WATSON (Young) [3·34a.m.J: proviso will act ; but I do not object to I do not intend to offer any opposition giving it a trial. At any rate, I am pre­ to the amendments being accepted. I pared to accept the amendments, and, if wish, however, that we had a little more we find them unworkable, we shall have time at our diiiposal, because it seems to to introduce an amending bill. me that the form the new clause inserted Mr. F. B. SUTTOR (Bathurst) [3·40 by the Legislative Council has taken might a.m.] : It is not very satisfactory to hear very well be improved. We hear a lot the Minister in charge of a bill say that 4068 Tlte Rock to Green's Gunyah [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Bill. he does not know much about the amend­ think it was less than !d., and that it ments ; but that if they do not work he shaded down to something ver,r small. will have to bring in an amending bill. I There seems to be no provision in the bill believe that there are no freeholds between for the cessation of the rate. Suppose Bourke and Brewarrina, and it is quite a that the railway becomes a paying one, new feature of our legislation to require according to this clause the owner of the tenants of the Crown to pay a betterment­ land will have to go on paying for all time. tax. I was present during the discussion There is provision in the bill for the tax of onfl of these bills in the Upper HousP, to be brought into force by proclamation. and I think I heard the Attorney-General But what is the use of a proclamation when say something to the effect that he accepted the bill itself fixes the distance within t,he amendments, though he was not sure which the taxes are to be imposed~ There that they could impose these charges upon is no necessity whatever for a proclama­ lessees; but he would have inquiries made. tion. If a man has 1,000 acres of land I ask the hon. member if these inquiries near the railway he will have to pay a tax have been made 1 of £4 3s. 4d. An owner has about 2,500 Mr. YouNG : I have not made any ! ac~es of land not very far from the Rock Mr. F. B. SUTTOR : Well, I suppose station, on which, if this provision comes if the Government cannot make them they into force, he will have to pay £10 or £12. will not. a year. I telegraphed to the district yester­ .1\'Ir. YouNG: We are in a corner now, day, and asked whether the progress asso­ and the easiest way is to accept the amend­ ciation was prepared to accept this bill, ments! and the reply whic~ I got from the presi­ Question resolved in the affirmative. dent and the secretary was that they would Resolution reported, and adopted. leave the matter entirely in my hands. I saw the representative of the Government THE ROCK TO GREEN'S GUNYAH in the Upper House, and asked him not to . RAIL \YAY BILL. construct the railway unless the people In Comrw~ttee; consideration of Legisla­ wanted it. I should like to get a state­ tive Council's amendments : ment publicly from the Secretary for Public [Mr. O'SuLLIVAN, Temporary-Chairman. J W arks that if the people in that locality do· Mr. YOUNG (The Manning), Secretary not wish to take the railway, it shall not £or Public Works [3·45 a.m.], rose to move: be forced upon them with this tax. That the Committee agree to the Legislative Mr. Yomw: I have no desire to make Council's amendments in the bill. the railway if the people do not want it ! He said : The amendments in this bill are Mr. LYNE : But the hon. member may precisely the same as those in the hill feel bound to carry out the act. sanctioning the rail way from Koorawatha Mr. YouNG: No. I am authorised to to Grenfell. construct the line, but I am not compelled I Mr. LYNE (The Hume) [3·46 a.m.]: to do it. I have no dflsire to make the cannot say that I am opposed to the better­ railway if the people in the district do not ment principle. want it. Mr. YOUNG: The hon. member tried to get it on ! Mr. LYNE : My constituents might Mr. LYNE : What I did was to try to blame me in the future for accepting the pass a general "bill, but I do not think clause. I hope the hon. member will not it is fair to apply it on any special railway proceed with the work unless he has reason without applying it to all railways. The to believe that a majority of the people in bill which I submitted to the Chamber the district desire him to do so. was to that effect. It was proposed Mr. YouNG: I certainly will not! that all railways except national rail­ Mr. WILLIS (The Barwon) [3·55 a.m.] ways should be subjected to the better­ said this was a new departure on the part ment principle. It is rather a heavy im­ of the Upper House in inserting penal post to charge 1d. per acre on land within clauses in the various railway bills. Person­ 5 miles of the railwav. I cannot remem­ ally, he thought they were illegal, and could ber what the amount" was that I proposed not be collected, as regarded Crown lands. in my general bill, but I am inclined to There should be an all-round tax imposed [Mr. F. B. Suttor. 1'/wmas Su.fjield. [22 DEc., 1898.] Thomas Suffield. 4069 on the betterment principle on rail way lines in verdicts contrary to the evidence in already constructed, as well as on those criminal cases is an inquiry under the about to be constructed. We had railways Criminal Law Amendment Act, or by running to the doors of some of the bon. royal commission; and as an inquiry under members in the other Chamber, some of the Criminal Law Amendment Act can­ which railways did not pay. One of the not be granted now, because Suffield has hon. members in the Council who voted ceased to be a prisoner, therefore the only against this bill, had a railway running means of obtaining anything like justice pretty well past his door, on which the for this man is by the appointment of country lost about £36,000 per annum. a royal commission. The only new evidence Those hon. members had everything they that coulJ be brought before a royal com­ wanted, and now, because other people, mission would practically be the clearing living in remote parts of the colony, wanted of the character of the Warrens. The rail way commnnication in order to send Warrens were the chief witnesses for the their goods to market, these gentlemen defence. They absolutely proved an alibi. imposed penal clauses upon them. Warren and his wife and his daughter Motion agreed to. proved that Suffield was in the house at Reported, that the Committee had the time this crime was supposed to have agreed to the amendments of the Legisla­ been committed. The royal commission tive Council; report adopted. would find out for itself whether the War­ rens, who had lived in the district for a THOMAS SUFFIELD. long time, were trustworthy persons, whose Debate resumed (from 25th October, word ought to be believed; and if he arrived 1898, vide page 1792), on motion by Mr. at that opinion, then the verdict would be A. H. Griffith : that the verdict of the jury in this case was That, in view of the refusals of successive· ministers of justice to grant an inquiry into the wrong, because, if they are to be believed, case of Thomas Suffield under the provisions of as I think they are, it was impossible that the Criminal Law Amendment Act, this House this crime co11ld have been committed by is of opinion that, with the object of enabling Thomas Suffield. I think there would be him to clear away the stain which rests upon his name, a royal commission to inquire into the cir­ no use in my dilating any further on this cumstances connected with his trial should forth­ case, because I believe that every hon. with be appointed. member is seized of the facts. I will con­ Mr. ANDERSON (Waterloo) (4a.m.J: tent myself now with going to a vote. After such a long sitting, and at thjs early Question put. The House divided: hour of the morning, I think it desirable Ayes, 18 ; noes, 24; majority, 6. that the debate should be adjourned, AYES. especially as there is other important Dick, W. T. Ross, H. business still on the paper. The officers Fegan, J. L. Smith, Samuel of the House, as well as bon. members, are Fitzpatrick, J. C. L. Stevenson, R. utterly exhausted after the lo11g sitting. Griffith, A. H. Suttor, F. B. Hughes, W. M. 'Vatkins, D. Mr. A. H. GRIFFITH (Waratah) [4-1 Jessep, T. 'Vatson, J. C. a.m.], in -reply : I will not take up much Lyne, vV. J. of the time of the House, as this matter Meagher, R. D. Telle1·s, has been gone into very fully on two pre­ O'Sullivan, E. 1-V. Carroll, J. G. Price, R. A. Holman, 1-V. A. vious occasions. I think I made it clear NoEs. to the House that Suffield did not receive Anderson, G. McLean, F. E. a fair tdal at Maitland, and that it was Archer, 1-V. Millard, W. morally and physically almost impossible Ashton, J. Morgan, W. that the crime could have been committed Brunker, J. N. Nobbs, J. Campbell, Archibald Reid, G. H. by him. I think I have also succeeded in Carruthers, J. H. Rigg, vV. showing that this is a case in which if Clarke, T. Sleath, R. there was a criminal court of appeal the Cohen, J. J. Thomas, J. verdict would have been reversed on the Cook, J. Willis, W. N. Hawthorne, J. S. ground that it was contrary to the weight Hogue, J. A. Tellers, of eviG.ence ; but as there happens to be Lee, C. A. Garland, J. no criminal court of appeal, and the only' Mahony, vV. H. O'Conor, B. B. means of doing justice where juries bring Question so resolved in the negative 4070 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Exchange, &c.

ADJOURNYJ:EN1'. like screwing the last farthing out of these LA:\D EXCHANGE ; INTERE.';T OX OVERDUE REXTS. men when they get a notice that a three Motion (by Mr. REID) proposed : or sixmonths'notice to pay the rent has been That the House do now adjourn. granted, but that they will have to pay Mr. O'SULLIVAN (Queanbeyan) [4·10 5 per cent. for that favour. a.m.] : I wish to ask the Secretary for Mr. PRICE (Gloucester [4·16 a.m.]: I Lands not to complete the proposed land would like to ask the Secretary for Lands exchange on Edgeroi Station, in N arrabri a question with regard to the definition of district, till next session. I have received the word "adjacent." The Minister pro­ a very strong letter from N arrabri about mised when the bill was passing through this matter. The land board has decided the House that a most liberal interpreta- · in favour of the exchange, but we hope the tion would be placed on the word "adja­ hon. gentleman will agree to stay his hand cent," so ~hat a man having a small block until such time as we can show solid of 10 or 30 acres should not be debarred reasons why the proposed exchange should from taking up a holding some distance not take place. away. Another matter I wish to draw Mr. H. ROSS (Narrabri) [4'11 a.m.]: I attention to is the laying of the cables for have been requested by a number of my the electric tramway. There is no insula­ constituents to bring under the notice of tion of the cable from the power-house at the House the proposed exchange of land the bottom of Liverpool-street, and as it is on Edgeroi, in the N arrabri district, for laid within a few inches of the water-mains land in another district. The land board belonging to the Hydraulic Power Com­ has decided in favour of the exchange, pany, some serious damage may he done. but on the question of equal value the Mr. CARRUTHERS (St. George), Sec­ board has nothing to say. ·what we com­ retary for Lands [4·18 a.m.]: With refer­ plain of is, that a large number of persons ence to theexchangeof land on Edgeroi and have expended large sums in theN arrabri Burburgate holdings, I can assure bon. district, under the impression that at the members who have spoken on the subject expi1·ation of these leases of Crown lands that I will not be hasty in coming to a de­ the lands would be open to settlement. cision. As I am assured, especially by the To lock up 18,000 or 20,000 acres of land, hon. member who represents N arrahri, that and to give the fee-simple to a company . the inhabitants can bring additional evi­ which already holds a very large area of dence, I will give them an opportunity of land, would block the tide of settlement doing so by referring the case to the Land and give an advantage to the people in Appeal Court. That evidence may cause another district. If the decision in this the court to come to a difierent decision mcttter is held over, the people will show from that arrived at by the land board. further reasons to the Minister why the If the decision is not varied by the Land land should not be exchanged. Appeal Court, the bon. member cannot ex­ Mr. WILLIS (The Barwon)[4·13 a.m.]: pect me to set my judgment against that Before the Secretary for Lands replies, I of the boards constituted by Parliament would like him to reply to a request I to speak from local experience and the evi­ made on behalf of the settlers in the in­ dence adduced. I would remind the hon. terior. Considering the devastation which member that a short time ago an exchange the bad season has caused throughout the of land at Balranald, consisting of 50,000 north-western districts, will the bon. gentle­ acres, took place in which a lessee surt·en­ man, when he considers an application dered about 50,000 acres adjacent to the for an extension of time for the payment town of N arrabri. The people of N arrabri of rent, forego that penal 5 per cent. in­ never raised the slightest objection to that, terest which he generally charges 1 He and they took all the advantage they could, might very reasonably accede to this re­ and that exchange was strongl:v opposed que~t. It is only foregoing the interest on by a section of the country and Narrabri these amounts to help the settlers a little. is reaping the advantage of forty or fifty It is not very much; but it means a great new selections. While N arrabri benefited deal to men who have very little. I admit by that exchange the people of Balranald t.he hon. member· has always been willing suffered. Their action in the present case to help these people. But it does seem is hardly fair. This particular exchange Adjournment. (22 DEC., 1898.] Land Exchange, &:c. 40il

is not adding to the estate of any large tunity of making inquiry about the mat­ company, because they are giving up acre ter. I want to point out to the hon. for acre of agricultural land within 4 or 5 gentleman that it seems to me a most miles of a rail way·station at Boggabri, while extraordinary thing that the bon. member, they are taking pastoral land some distance being in charge of that department, who away from N arrabri. vVe are getting agri­ some twelve months ago gave a deputation, culturalland very much nearer a railway­ of which I was a member, a mo:;t solemn station and many miles nearer to the mar­ assurance that this measure should be kets of Newcastle and Sydney. However, brought on to a consummation this session, it would ill become me to prejudge the who, since that time, has assured half a, matter. The whole case will come before dozen different deputations that the one the Land Appeal Court, where evidence will measure which should be passed into law be taken on oath. I hope the hon. member this session, at any rate, shou.Jd be the for N arrabri will be satisfied with that, Navigation Bili-I want to ask the hon. and that he will tell his constituents that member how he accounts for the fact that they shall have allother chance. The whole an bon. member representing the Govern­ expense will be borne by the Lands De­ ment in another place has been allowed to partment. Let them appear before the introduce some forty amendments in this Land Appeal Court and furnish the fresh bill without his knowledge, and without evidence, and I will hold my hand until · any explanation to the hon. gentleman, the decision of the Land Appeal Court is not only agreeing to the postponement of known. I will give every consideration to the bill but approving of it. The matter the point raised by the hon. member for is one of great importance, because hun­ Gloucester. dreds of human lives may be sacrificed Mr. J. c. vV A~'SON : In connection with through the failure of the Government in the exchange ftt N arrabri, will the Lands anothet· Chamber to push this measure on. Department move the Land Appeal Court This is not in any way experimental legis­ to take fresh evidence 1 lation; it is, to all intents and purposes, Mr. CAR~UTHERS: In this case I the English act. I have looked over the will take pains to instruct counsel that amendments brought forward in another the Land Appeal Court shall be asked to place, and I find that two pages of theru sit as a board to rehear the case. I over­ are already iu the bill, which proves con­ looked the ·question asked by the hon. clusively that, whoever read the measure, member for The Barwon. I suppose the the Attorney-General did not do so. It is, hon. member was referring to the penal I think, a disgrace that an bon. member in rate of 10 per cent. Ten per cent. is charge of an important measure of this kind fixed by law, but I have taken it upon should hang it up at the last moment in myself to remit 5 per cent. That 5 per cent. order to please a section of the community. really only represents a penal rate of 1 per The bill is the result of months of invesci­ cent. I will consult with the Colonial gation presumably, and it was satisfactory Treasurer, who is most seriousl.Y affected to sections so widely apart as those repre­ by these matters, and if the Cabinet will sented by the hon. member for Pyrmont agree to it, I shall be perfectly willing Division, and those represented by the to remit even the extm 1 per cent. during hon. member for Grafton. The bon. mem­ this very severe drought. ber for Grafton the other night assured us Mr. W. l\L HUGHES (Sydney-Lang) that the bill was an excellent one, and that [4·23 a.m.]: I desire to a~k the hon. mem­ it was necessary; yet this bill is proposed her at the head of the Government, now to be amended by the Attorney-General in that he has had an opportunity of confer­ the Upper Chamber. Twenty of the amend­ ring with his colleague representing the Go­ ments proposed are already in the bill, a vernment in the Upper Chamber, whether number of them are met by the power given he has any reason to offer the House for the to the Governor to declare that any provi­ abandonment of the Navigation (Amend­ sion of the Imperial act· shall have effect ment) Bill in the Legislative Council? I in this colony. I do not say that the hon. asked the hon. member the question dur­ member in charge of this bill knew any­ ing the formal business before the tea-hour, thing of this matter elsewhere, I am sure and he told me he had not had an oppor· he did not; but he will see that we must 4072 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Land Exchange, &c. hold him responsible as head of the depart­ does not, and when it comes, I hope there ment. What am I to say to my con­ will be no ill-feeling. On behalf of the .. stituents in reply to the question they will Opposition, I wish the Government and ask me as to ·what has become of the N a vi~ their supporters a merry Christmas and a gation Bill 1 Will it be any excuse to say happy new year. that at the last moment the Attorne_y­ Mr. SAMUEL SMITH (Sydney-Pyr­ Gederal attached to the bill some forty mont) [4·36 a.m.]: In conjunction with the .amendments, and that that was the reason hon. member for Lang Division, I am some­ the bill has not been considered in the what surprised and disapy>Ointed that the Legislative Council? Will it be held to Navigation Act Amendment Bill, and the be a sufficient reason that this was mainly Early Closing Bill are not to become law because the hon. member introduced the this session. So far as the Marine Board is bill in the last moments of the session 7 I concerned, I trust the Premier will, during do not think so. I think that the bon. the recess, cause a stricter supervision to member will agree with me that the Go­ be made of vessels leaving the port than is vernment is, in a large sense, responsible made now. I am prepa~ed at any time the and culpable. W ehavehereacomprehensive Premier desires to submit to him the names measure which all sections of the com­ of a number of vessels in regard to which munity considered to be necessary, and there is a condition of things which ought recent disasters have emphasised the out­ not to exist. It will be a great disappoint­ <:ry for the passing of the bill into law. ment to the seafaring community that the The only reason the Attorney-General Navigation Act ,A.mendment Bill does not assigned for the amendments was that a become law. I trust, however, as we have deputation of the C~amber of Commerce not been able to get the measure passed waited upon him, and without any investi­ this session, the Premier will adopt the gation into them he had the amendments suggestion I have made, and give special printed and circulated in the other Cham­ instructions to the responsible officers of ber, to the intense ~stonishment of other the Marine Board to make a more careful members, who were already overwhelmed inspection of vessels which .are not carry­ by the character of the bill. This, of course, ing passengers. I trust that next session knocked the bill on the head. The onlv the Premier will use his influence with the considerable bill which had a chance ~f representatives of the Government in the going through was deliberately killed by Upper House in getting the measure the attachment to it, by the Attorney­ passed into law at the earliest opportunity. General, of these useless and unnecessary Mr.J.C.WATSON(Young)[4·40 a.m.]: amendments. I must also express my regret that the Mr. LYNE (The Hume) [4·33 a.m.]: I Legislative Council did not see its way to, presume the Prime Minister is not going at any rate, pass a portion of the measure to meet the House to-morrow ? referred to. I remember accompanying a Mr. REID: That is very likely! deputation to the Premier before the last Mr. L YNE : The hon. gentleman seems election, when he contemplated the possi­ to concur for once in what I say. :For my bility, at any rate, of being able to pass a part, I am exceedingly glad, in view of the short bill embodying the latest regulations long sittings we have recently had, that I of the Board of Trade, which would have shall be able to eat my Christmas dinner given the Marine Board power to prevflnt elsewhere. I hope any litt~e troubles we a lot of coffin-ships leaving th<>. port. U n­ may have had will be forgotten. I have fortnnately we shall have another six no ill-feeling towards my political oppo­ months during which the Marine Board nents, and I hope they have none towards will have no power to stop the outgoing me. I can only say it will be a. bad of those vessels. Although I admit the thing when we cannot respect each other. great ability of gen,tlemen in another I hope that whe_n the time comes that we place, it is nearly time this House began are able to dislodge the tenacious Premier, to consider how far it is j ustifiecl in sub­ the Government and his supporters will mitting always to the dictation, not only display as little acrimonious feeling as I of the members, but of the Representative do at present. I hope the change will of the Government in that Chamber. In come soon. It will not be my fault if it connection with every measure of reform, [Mr. W. M. Hughes. i . Adjournment. [22 DEc., 1898.] Land Excht/,nge, &c. 4073

we are compelled to submit to the dicta­ consultation which colleagues generally tion, not only of the members of that body have in connection with such matters. generally, but of the Representative of the With reference to the loss of that hill this Government there. Our measures are al- · session,' I regret to say that several other ways brought to conform to his ideas of bills have shared its fate. Any promise what is fair. Everything is hacked and tnat I may make in connection with mea­ patched about. Every measure is shorn sures is subject to one flaw, that I have of its useful features in order to placate the not the cordial support in another branch Attorney-General. It is about time that of the legislature which I l1avo here. state of things was stopped. The Naviga­ Mr. W. M". 'Huam's : Will the right tion Act Amendment Bill, the Early-clos­ hon. member try to remedy that 1 ing Bill, the Arbitration Bill, are cases in Mr. REID : I think that Rome thing may point. Every measure of reform which be done which will have a very decided has been agitated for years past is prac­ influence upon future legislation. T pro­ tically emascuhted to suit the views of the mise hon. IriemberR that I shall take all gentleman who represents the Government these difficulties to which we have been in the other Chamber. exposed for a long time past into the most Mr. REID (Sydney -King), Colonial serious consideration, and that I shall en­ Treasurer [4·43 a.m.]: I should first ack­ deavour to put mattters into a more satis­ nowledge with gratitude the lecture with factory state. I can quite understand the which the hon. member for Lang Division disappointment which hon. members feel has honored me. I am becomingly grateful at the loss of the Navigation Bill this ses­ to him for it. At the same time, if the bon. sion, and I am thoroughly disappointed the .member bad a little more fairness he ·would Government cannot have the credit of understand that the progress of Govern­ having passed it. But, as I have said, ment measures in the Upper House is not there are forces in another place entirely entirely in the hands of the Government, beyond our control. Ii we had had rea­ and ltas not been for some time past; that sonable prospects of passing that measure we are absolutely destitute of anything like this session, a very special efi'ort would a majority sufficient to enable us to exercise have been made to pass it. I do not deny the power which a government ought to . that the Government have this session exercise over the deliberations of that been too late in dealing with measures. I Chamber; that that state of things is arid feel that we have allowed matters to drift has been notorious for years; that we have in a way which .is not creditable to us, but to struggle to get the best we can, and have in respect to which there are certain ex­ ·to be contented with that best, however cuses which I do not wish to enter upon bad it may be. The bon. member puts the at a moment like this. blame on the head of the Attorney-General. Mr. DICK : Theright hon. member may .I.would point out, however, that the At­ remember that he promised us a ·pilot­ torney-Geiieralleading a house which is, boat for Newcastle. That promise would by a large majority, opposed to the Go­ have bt>en redeemed by the passing of the vernment, is put in a very thankless and bill. Now we shall have to wait another very difficult position. Iustead of tho At­ year: torney-General cu"tting and haokin"g mea­ Mr. l'tEID: I hope not so long as that. sures about his aim is to endeavour to 'With reference to the remarks made by prevent the cutting and hacking about of the hon. member for The Hume in the the measures of the Gover_nment, and in absence of the leader of the Opposition, I doing that he often has to accept an greatly app1·cciate what he said. Sitting amendment which the GoYernment under on this side of the House we are apt to other circumstances would not accept. forget what we so thoroughly realised when Mr. \V. l\'I. HuanEs : Why does he we were on that side : that it is the duty want to put the forty amendments in 1 of the Opposition to vigilantly r.riticise Mr. REID : That was a step on the and ·to watch the movements of the Go­ part taken by the Attorney-General with vernment, especially with regard to legis­ the best motive in the world. In the press lation. We are apt to forget that this is of business during the past two or three the duty of hon. members opposite, dis­ days it has been impossible to· have that agreeable though it may be to us. But 13 E 4074 Adjournment. (ASSEMBLY.] Land Exchange, &c. while the hon. member for The Hume and porters, upon a recent occasion, when there myself are in a constant state of heat and. was a very good opportunity for treatment misunderstanding inside the Chamber, I of a different kind. I am deeply sensible do not think that we have a single un­ of the generous way in which hon. mem­ pleasant word to say outside, though I bers have dealt with me in this ::>.nd in have not his skill in various scientific pur­ past sessions. I have met with none but suits in which we occasionally engage. It the friendliest feelings, and I thoroughly must be my fault that the hon. member ag"ree with the opinion that there is nothing is so constantly set on edge, because our inconsistent in strong political opponents private relations are of the most friendly being good personal friends. The more character, and I can only say the same of, that attitude characterises public life the I think, almost every _member of the Op­ better will it be in every respect for the position. I am deeply sensible of the gen­ affairs of the country. erous feeling shown to me by my political Question resolved in the affirmative. opponents as well as by my political sup- House adjourned at 4·i>O a.m. (Frida.y).

PROROG.ATION OF PARLIAMENT. (Gazette, No. 1102.) NEW SoUTH vV.UES, l Proclamation by His Excellency the Right Honorable HENRY to wit. r RoBERT, VISCOUNT HAMPnEN, Governor and Commander-in- (L.s.) HAMPDEN, Chief of the Colony of New South Wales and its Dependencies. (/overno?·. WHEREAS by the bill passed by the Governor and Legislative Council of New South Wales, in the seventeenth year of the reign of her Majesty the Queen, intituled "An Act to confer a Constitution on New South Wales and to grant a Civil List to her Majesty," and assented to by her Majesty, under the authority of the act of the Imperial Parliament, passed in the session of the eighteenth and nineteenth years of the said reign, intituled "An Act to enable her Majesty to assent to a Bill as amended of the Legislature of New South Wales to confer a Constitution on New South Wales and to grant a Civil List to her Majesty," it was amongst other things enacted that it should be lawful for the Governor of New South Wales to prorogue the Legislative Council and Assembly thereof from time to time: And whereas it is expedient to prorogue the said Council and Assembly: Now, therefore, I, HENRY RoBERT, VISCOUNT HAMPDEN, the Governor a~oresaid, in pursuance of the power and autho-rity_ so vested in me, do hereby prorogue the said Legislative Council and Assembly until Tuesday, t!~e thirty­ £rst day of January next, and the same stand so prorogued accordingly.

Given under my hand and seal, at Government House, Sydney, this twenty­ third day of December, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight, and in the sixty-second year of her Majesty's reign. By his Excellency's command, G. H. RErD. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!

.~· Sydney: William Appleg-ate Gullick, Govcrnmen.t Printer.-1899.