2324 2324[ASSEMBLY.] ference has been held, whereas the Bill Hon. H. S. W. Parker: If this is carried, provides for this action being taken before it will mean increasing the burden on the the conference is held, and so prevents seri- people by £550. ous dispute. The CHAIRMAN: The point is that the Clause put and negatived. assistant president would receive the same salary as the president, £1,750. Then the Clause 28--New sections: total would be £3,600. The Bill originated Hon. H. S. W. PARKER:- It did not here , and the amendment imposes an in- appear to the select committee that this creased expenditure of £56. clause was necessary. In the ease of the Progress reported. mining industry it would be practically im- possible to carry it into effect, largely for the Ho169e adjourned at 11.53 p.m. reason that mines nowadays are enclosed with fence;, and a watchman is on duty to see that nobody enters the premises at night time. Permission, however, is always pranted to union officials to visit a mine at reasonable times. The CHIEF SECRETARY: The select committee did not appear to have devoted the attention to this clause that it deserves. I hope it will he retained. Clause put and negatived. teotelattvpe Eeeemblv, Clause 27-agreed to. Tuesday, 7th December, 1937. New clause: PaGE Hon. H1. S. W. PARKER: I move- Question: Boni 8 lecturer flu Perth Munnicipal Admln]atratlon Select Commnittee... 2M2 That a new clause to stand as Clause 3 be Motion: went of oonldrnc% hotel ownership, etcu.... 2826 inserted an follows-"- Section 19 of the prin- Bills: FncilBmergsn Tax Amssment Act cipal Act is hereby repealed)' Amendment, 'afurther aessage _ 2340 Incoms Tax Assessment, ConcilsefenMassag 2869 Fremantls Gas and Coke Company's Act Amend- New clause put and passed. ment, returned 2800 Perth Ga Companys Act Amenment,.rturned 2869 New clause:- Land Tax and Inconma Tax, returned. 2370 municipal oroations Act Amendment (No. 2) Hon. H. returnedo 2870 S. W. PARKER: I move- Factories and Shops Act Amesndmnt, lit 2370 That a new clause to stand as Clause 8 be inserted as follows:-" Section forty-three of the principal Act is hereby repealed and the following substituted :.-43. The Court shall The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30 consist of a President or Assistant President, p.m., and read prayers. who shall be a person qualified to he appointed a Judge of the Supreme Court, and shall be appointed by the Governor." QUBBTION-MnNG, LECTURER. It would be more expeditious for the work Mr. -MARSHALL asked the Minister for of the court if a president or assistant presi- Mines: 1, Is Mr. Compton, one-time lecturer dent were the only person to preside over it. at the School of Mines, Kalgoorlie, at press it The CHAIRMAN: Section 43 of the Act directly employed by the State? 2, If so, says the court shall consist of three members what is his particular class of work? 3, appointed by the Governor, a president and What salary does he receivei two lay members. Section 49 states that the The MINISTER FOR MINES replied: president shall receive a salary equal to that 1, 2, and 3, Mr. Comnpton is a lecturer in of a judge of the Supreme Court, and that mining attached to the School of Mines, the other members of the court shall receive Kalgoorlie. His services were in July lest not less than £600 per annum. The presi- loaned for a period of 18 months to Messrs dent to-day receives £1,750 a year. Two lay- Paton and Morris, representing the Spargo's. mecn draw £1,200 between them. The total is Reward, First Hit, and Lady Shenton Gold E24950. Here is a proposal to leave the Mining Companies. Mr. Comupton has been (1,750. Is it proposed to give the assistant granted leave of absence from his official president nothing? duties without pay during this period. [7 DECEME, 1937.] 2325

PERTH MUNICIPAL ADMD(STRATION for Northam was right, hut he picked on the SELECT COMX[TTEE. wrong person. The first general ground Ron. C. G. LATHAM (without notice) upon which I shall ask the House to relieve asked the Premier: In view of the recent the present Ministry of its responsibilities decision of this House against the suggeste is that as a Government it has abandoned appointment of a Royal Commission to in. the funetions of government. Although quire into activities of the Perth City Coun- theme are certain crying demands for amend- cil, does the Premier propose to convert the ment in our legislation, the Government does select committee which was appointed into nothing, but leaves to private members, by an honorary Royal Commission? way of private Bills, select committees, and so forth, the task of doing the work that The PREMIER replied: Yes. In view o rightfully belongs to the Administration of the diftereiwe between a Royal Commission the day. The government of a country can- and an honorary Royal Commission, having not be carried on when those charged with regard to the aspect of cost, the Government the responsibility of government will not proposes, if necessity arises and the select live up to that responsibility. I submit that committee, is unable to complete its delibera- is a fundamental of government. In fact, tions by the time Parliament rises, to con- the Government's primary function is to vert it into an honorary Royal Commission. govern. Whenever the law is deficient, either by reason of old age or owing to altered circumstances, it is the Government's MOTION-WANT or CONFIDENCE. duty to take steps to have the lawv revised Hotel Ownership, etc. and brought up to date. In my opinion MR, HUGHES (East Perth) [4.34]: 1 the Government tins shed that responsi- move- bility of keeping legislation up to date, That in view of the disclosure of the true has abandoned that part of its duty to pri- ownership of the Waptain Stirling Hotel, and vate members. The second broad ground for other reasons, the Government no longer on which 1 propose to ask members to possesses the confidence of the House. vote for my motion is that the Government In moving the motion standing in my name has yielded to another place the right to on the Notice Paper, I propose to support dictate to this Chamber, especially on ques- it under various headings. Naturally, in tions of finance, and that the Government moving a motion of want of confidence in has repeatedly surrendered, )in fact has the Government, one is required to give to surrendered time and again, the privileges the House specific grounds why the Ministry and powers of this House, to another should be turned out of office, If I had had Chamber. Members of the Government no grounds until I heard the question of the have for the past 30 years ranted about Leader of the Opposition answered, I would the Upper House and its dealings with now have good grounds, in view of the fagt legislation, hut will not take any steps to that last Tuesday evening we were definitely revise the enacting powers of the two informed by the memyber for Northern (Hon. Chambers. On Thursday night we were A. N.. G. Hawke) that I myself had been subjected to the humiliating spectacle of found by an impartial expert tribunal to be this House being detained unitil ten minutes a liar, a cheat and a thief. A week later past one o'clock in the morning waiting for the Government proposes to appoint me an the Premier to come back from a con- honorary Royal Commissioner to inquire ference with members of another place to into another matter. Our political life is inform us that once again he had made falling to strange depths when liars and an ignominious surrender on a finance Bill. cheats and thieves can be appointed Royal Therefore I submit that the Government Commissioners. True it is that the member for Northam spoke of "a certain person, has not only surrendered privileges of this probably because he feared that he might be Chamber, but has abandoned its own policy, called to order by the Chair. Not that I and will not take any steps to put into would have bothered to take the point of force the policy on which it was elected. order, for I think I shall be able to show This thing should be brought to a head. that certain persons in the public life of My third ground perhaps is not a new this community are liars and thieves and round. The Government has abandoned cheats. So that in substance the member the principles and the policy for which 2326 (ASSEMBLY.] some of its members have agitated over the phlet form, be came to the House and last 30 or 25 years, has thrown overboard moved a motion. From his place opposite its principles and policy for the support of he examined his conduct in respect to the the "W~est Australian" newspaper. Min- manganese company, and got a clean dis- isters have become mere puppets of the charge without a stain on his character. So "West Australian" newspaper. The boss that bet too can say that an impartial and even gave the Premier some instructions expert inquiry found that everything was this morning as to how to act, and com- all right. But strangely enough, the Auditor mended him for something be did the other General would not agree with him. evening. 1 do not blame the Government. Mfr. Lambert: Differences make lawyers In fact, I do not blame the present Pre- possible, and only possible. mier or any other Premier. If a man is in Mr. HUGHES: We will examine the posi- charge of the government of a country, he tion at some length later on. We will see naturally desires the support of the only that if the farmers had been assisted as were, morning newspaper, a most powerful daily. the shareholders of the manganese company I have no quarrel with the Government on they would not have bad to worry about that score. It is a very natural bent to their debts. Debts would have been paid or follow. Any man who is a Premier of adjusted in such a way that the farmers could Western Australia would naturally be not be molested. Under the same heading pleased to find himself backed up by a daily there is a marked discrimination in the treat- newspaper with a circulation of 60,000. mient meted out by the Government to the But I submit that the price is too high. controllers of the proprietary racing clubs, The price of that support is a million and that meted out to starting-price book- pounds a year taken by a wages tax from makers. Where a millionaire is backing a the workers. That price is too high for r'acing club everything is all right; the law the return obtained. Fourthly I submit, does not apply. Turning to the mining world, even at the risk of another of those tirades if we are to believe the member for Mur- of abuse from the Minister for Employ- chison (Mr. Maishall) there is one gentle- ment, that the Government has refused to luau who has been a law unto himself in the abolish the problem of unemployment in Mines Department. I am sure the statement Western Australia. We have unemploy- of the bon. member is fresh in the minds of ment only because the Government has no members, that Mr. de Bernales can do as he desire to abolish it. Fifthly, there is the likes in the Mines Department. We have flovernment 's. policy of extracting money heard the Minister for Mines being viciously from relief workers for a political organisa- attacked by the member for Murchison on tion masquerading as a trade union. That the conduct of the Mines Department. I three times in policy is definitely illegal, and represents heard the hon. member repeat a most improper use of the executive power one speech that reservations lead to corrup- tion. When we, members in Opposition, bear vested in Mini stem. Sixthly, in the ad- Government supporters making allegations ministration of the law, the Government like that against their own Ministers, is it has two policies-one for the rich and in- any wonder that we lose confience in the fluential, another for the poor and strug- Governmentf Finally, there was the violent gling. When one compares the vigour and attack made upon myself by the Minister venom with which the Minister for Lands for "Unemployment" on Tuesday night. f attacks and pursues that section of the did not mind his attacking me, because I farmaing community which has the misfor- will be able to show by six or seven exam- tune to be indebted to the Crown, with the ples that the Minister for "Unemployment" silence that remains in respect of the is a youth given to very reckless statements. money owing to the Crown by the sbare- He is given not only to very reckless state- holders of a manganese company- ments but to tactless interferences fromn the My. Lambert: The Government took us political point of view. Everybody, he said, dlown for E170,000. would remember that we bad a Royal Com- Mr. HUGHES: Now, did not the bon. mission. Most people in this State do re- member have instructions not to interject! member. My learned friend from Queensland T admit in fairness to the member for found against me oij every count, but I was Yilgarn-Coolgardie that when I mentioned well satisfied with the decision, because I was this wafter outside the Chamber, in pam- certain that the grand jury, the electors of [7 DsanunEH, 1937.] 222327

Western Australia, would not accept the of abuse against me? However, be elected judge's summing up. It is quite a conmnon to miake this attack and he won the tin- thing for people pleading in the criminal doubted applause of the Government's offi- courts to be not at a perturbed when the vial organ, the "West Australian" new&- judge sum up bard against. their clients, paper. I can remember, and so can you, because frequently juries take the bit in Mr. Speaker, in the bygone days of the their teeth and do not accept the judge's Labour movement that if the "West Austra- sRumming up. I merely regarded Mr. Hart lian" said anything favourable to one he was. as a judge summing up. So far as I am eternally disgraced. But those days have concerned the members of the jury are the gone. I alone seem to be the one about, people of Western Australia. I did not whom the "West Australian" will not say bother to revive the question of the Commis- anything- favourable. I do not blame them. sion because I was satisfied that as wit- I am not in sympathy with the policy of nesses were allowed to attend the Comnmis- the "West Australian." How could I be sion and refuse to answer questions on the when I am not in sympathy with the policy very matter which was being inquired into, of the Government, and the policy of the. and were upheld in that respect by the Com- Government is the policy of the "West A&us- missioner, so far as the jury was concerned, tralian"? Naturally the "West Australian" the whole judgment was destroyed, because will say whatever it can derogutory and it was a judgment founded on evidence put offensive to me nnd, not being one of those the most important evidence was in, while high-minded members like the member for excluded. I was not at all perturbed about Northam, I do not turn the other cheek, the finding. But when the member for Nor- but I say things in return. So, as far as I tham stands up in this House and says that am concerned, the 'West Australian" news- this gentleman, this Royal Commissioner, paper can have an open go. It can say as found--I suppose a Royal Commissioner de- me in its columns, signate should be loyal to his class and not much as, it likes about say anything unnecessarily offensive-when and I will say what I think about it from he says that this Royal Commissioner found the public platform and in this House. That. complaints on a cetain person-meaning me-a liar, cheat is a fair break, without any and a thief, it is time that I exposed some of either side. My final count is the disclosure the Captain Stirl- the findings of that Royal Commissioner. I of the true ownership of do not know why the member for Northam ing Hotel. In view of the evidence, or the should pick upon last week above all others suppressed evidence, which could have been to make the statement. given at the inquiry by the Royal Covmmi- sion, ulpon which the Government pinned its Hon. C. G. Lathamn: it is near Christmas. faith, and knowingy that the Government Mr. HUGHES: Probably he found out was well a-ware of such facts as the owner- that there had been public disclosures which ship of the Stirling Arms Hotel- proved conclusvely that what I said was Eon. C. G. Latham: You mean the Cap- right, and that the information was avail- tain Stirling Hotel? The Stirling Arms able to the Royal Commissioner, had I been Hotel is in Guildford. permitted to put it in. I am inclined to think Yes, I mean the Captain that perhaps he felt I should have a Mr. HUGHES:. Stirling Hotel. I mean to show how the lead in, that T should have an opportunity Government has got away from the senmb- to clear myself. I pr-efer to accept that as a Labour Government in the the reason why the member for Northam lance of being picked on last Tuesday night. Evidently he matter of this hotel. No Government that was stirred by a sense of righteousness. He has condoned 'what has occurreCd in connec- knew, of course, or he thought, that the tion with the Licensing Court and hotels like worm might turn if he made another one of the Captain Stirling Hotel; no Government his attacks and I might strike back. He that has allowed that sort of thing to go on knew that the information was now and, when an attempt was made to bring the available to refute himself, the Minister facts to the light of day, used means to stifle for Lands, the Premier, Mr. Hart, Sir Wal- the information from getting to the public, ter James, and the whole band of them. is worthy of occupying the Treasury He know that the information was available; benches of any Parliament. On that score or was it that on the eve of this disclosure alone T declare that the Government is not he wanted to make one final outburst entitled to the confidence of this House. The [ASSEMBLY4]

Government cannot get the confidence of this certain stock Bills brought down that we all House if there is any regard for cosst- knew would he rejected in the Legislative ency. If those members -who have con- Council, but there are numbers of things of demned, far more often than I have, the a purely legal aspect that require to be done Licensing Court and its administration are in this State. I might mention the Com- true to their own conscience, and vote as panies Act. The Companies Act is long their conscienc dictates, the Government overdue for a comprehensive overhaul. I will not have the confidence of this House. believe-and this is based upon letters from Furthermore, if one of the parties to those London-that it is of no use mentioning a transactions does the right thing ethically inunugc pro position from Western Australia and in accordance with parliamentary prac- to financial interests in London, because tice, and refrains from voting on this Western Australian mining propositions are motion, on the ground that as an initerested in veiry bad odour in London. We saw re- party he should vote neither for nor against, cently a public manifestation of that in con- the Government will not have the confidence nection with Sir William Campion and Mr, of this House. However, one cannot always de Bernales. I believe that the mining in- be sure--or 'that ha~s been the experience dustry of Western Australia has been very in recent years-that the votes of members badly treated, that mining flotations have will always follow their speeches and not- gone over that should never have been withstanding that members have strenuously allowed to see the light of day. Many of the addressed themselves to this question in the Mining p~roposit ions that have gone over the House I should not be surprised to find them London public were not justified, and they sitting on the opposite side to myself have brought the mining industry of West- when a division is taken. I am not ern Australia into a sad state of disrepute. going to say anything about that That was because we have sat back on our This party political machine is a soul- Companies Act and allowed it to remain on destroying machine. Mfen are compelled the statute-book as it was 30 or 40 years ago. utnder it to do things they do not want to do. In England there have been two complete They arc compelled to do publicly what they revisions of the companies law during that reprobato privately. They are compelled to time. The British Government feel it inctum- give their blessing by their vote to conduct bent upon them to keep their legislation up they consider to be in the highest degree to date. As circumstances change and legis- reprehensible. Therefore, unfortunately, the lation becomes obsolete or ineffective for the substance of a question and the true decision purpose for which it was designed, the on a question is frequently lost in the Legislature takes it upon itself to revise and rigidity of the party machine. I would not bring it into line with modemn conditions, Of be surprised even to see the "Minister for course that is not really a party question. I Mines and the member for Murchison (Mr. suppose the -revising of the Companies Act Marshall) sitting cheek by jowl notwith- to provide for a better working of the law, standing their bitter animosity of the last for a better protection of investors, and few weeks. Thank goodness there is not a above all for a better protection of the assets gentleman here from another place or we do of this country, such as the mining industry, ntot know what might happen! That briefly is a task in which every member of this summarises the grounds upon which T base House wouldl willingly lend a hand and give this motion. i might add, by way of bring- his time within the limits of his capacity. ing it in later, "and such other grounds as But surely it is the business of the Govern- may be brought forth during the debate." I1 ment to initiate that legislation!I We have confess to you, Mr. Speaker, that my con- on the notice paper a proposed amendment fidence in the Government has been abso- to the Companies Act by a private member. lutely destroyed. Adverting to, the functions A&private member is to be commended for of government-that is to bring the law up using his placee in this Parliament to remedy to date and first and foremost to be legis- any defects he might see in any particular lators-t4his session has been marked by a piece of legislation, but I submit respectfully romplete abandonment on the part of the to him and to the House that the Companies Government of all progressive legislation. Act is too big, a law, and too out of date to The notice paper is full of private members' be tinkered with piecemeal, and that it business--business that does not rightfully should be made a ppmpyehensivc measure for belong to private members. We have had amendment. We recently had a select corn- [7 DECEMBER, 1937.1 2329

mittee dealing with a company operating in found with every select committee on which this State, and certain recommendations were I have had an opportunity to sit, namely, made. But the select committee should never that it was of the utmost educational have been appointed because the Crown Law value to me. I do not know whether other file disclosed that all the information the members feel the samte way, but I venture select committee could get was already in the to say that they do. In that respect the possession of the Crown Law Department. select committee served a useful purpose. Hon. C. . Lathamn: You do not mean to Had the Government shouldered its re- suggest that members had that informattion? sponsibility as a Government and attended Mr. Tonkin: Did you suggest that? to the deficiencies in the Companies Act Hon. C. G. Lathamn: It sounded like it. and, as the administrative officers, acted Mr. HUGHES: In listening to the pro- on the information they already had on the ceedings of the select committee, the thought file, there would have been no reason for struck me that the member who had moved a select committee. There is a question for the select committee did have an uncanny that is crying out for legislative treatment knowledge of what was in that file. I in this State-I have a perfectly open mind wanted to satisfy myself that departmen- on it-and that is the question of starting tal files were not being banded out to pri- price betting. All I say is that we ought vate members. If any. private member is to make up our minds what the law is going to have access to a departmental file, going to be and then enforce it impartially. then all private members should have access If we are going to have betting for certain to all departmental files. I possibly risked people, we should have betting for other being thought somewhat eccentric by my people. My old friend the ''West Austra- fellow select committeemen when I asked lian,'' after giving-I do not know why- for the Crown Solicitor to be called to give a very fair and full report of my speech, evidence. He assured me that neither he published a leading article in the following nor any of his officers had shown the file to day's issue stating that I thought that the anyone except the Minister. Thus that best thing to do for the workers was to point was cleared up. Any question which allow them to gamble themselves into might have been asked and which might poverty in starting price betting shops. have given one the impression that the Maybe the "West Australian" did not want questioner possessed some inside informa- me to get a swelled head, and thought a tion was a mere matter of coincidence. little antidote would be, good for me. But, as I said, the Government had all the All I want to say in reply is that if the information on the file. Why was a select people are going to gamble their lives into committee needed to inquire into something poverty, they might as well do it in that was well known? The full information Beaufort-street, Perth, as at the Goodwood was available; the department had access Race Club. I cannot understand the out- to the company's offices the same as the look of the official organ of the Government select committee had. The whole of the when it says. "Go, my son, and spend your police force-trained people-was avaable inheritance, but do it at Belmont." What to make inquiries. But the Government sanctity is there at Belmont or at Good- simply abandoned its functions of govern- wvood? The paper is not very much con- ment. Apparently, it was thought to he cerned about the people impoverishing a matter that needed some investigation, themselves, so long as the result of that im- but instead of shouldering the respon- poverishment is that certain influential sibility that rightfully belonged to it, people are enriched. We know that the the Government handed the job to five position with regard to the attitude of Par- private members of this House. As re- liainept in the matter of betting is chaotic. gards the five private members of this "A" can bet with impunity with the aid of House, I am not making any complaint on the police in one spot but if '93" dares to their behalf, or on my own behalf. It is have a bet around the corner, be is arrested our business, as members of the House, to by a policeman and prosecuted in the courts. give our services in any direction that may The time is long past when the Government be thought by the House to be in the pub- should have shouldered its responsibilities as lie interest. Personally, I found with this a Government, and brought down legisla- particular select committee what I have tion to deal with the betting question. I do [ASSEMBLY.]

not care what betting legislation it brings on the statue-book with the minimum of de- down. If the House does not agree with the lay any legislation that had the endorsement proposals, every member has an opportun- of the electorates at large. In Queensland ity in Committee to move amendments. I some time ago- submit it is not the business of a private M1r. SPEMICER:- The hon. member is dis- miember 'o have thrust upon him the duty of tinctly out of order in discussing a Bill that dealing with such an important deficiency in is now before the House. I have been very our law. We have had the necessity for lpatieut with him. amendments to be made to the Rural Relief Mr. HUGHES: I will not pursue that legislation and the Adjustment of Debts matter. legislation. Again, it is left to a private Mr. SPEAKER: I draw the hon.. mem- member to bring up these questions. Any ber's attention to Standing Order 123. matter that is difficult or contentious the Mr. Marshall:- The fact that this is the Government has avoided, and thrown upon last on your notes does not bring it within private members. The Government to- the Standing Orders. morrow is going to bring down a piece of Mr. HUGHES: It may be that one always highly contentious legislation. I assure some suffers from one's environment. When I ,of my friends opposite, in order to allay first came to the House, I wanted to deal ,any feelings of misgiving they may have, with something that had been passed. I that so far as I am concerned, the Redistri- ,went to the Speaker to seek his advice. He bution of Seats Bill will not become law. said emphatically that of course I could not The member for Yilgarn-Coolgardie (Mr. rel urn to an item when it was passed. Lamnbert) smiles. I am glad to have pro- Whtm an item wag passed that was the end -voked a smile from him. of it. As I went out of the door,' I heard Mr. Lamblert: I have a couple of seats; a voice say, "You can always talk until you I am all right. are stopped." Mr. HUGIHES: Another question that 11r% SPEARER: Perhaps the bon. mem- was of the utmost importance to an unfor- ber hias now stopped. lunate and the poorest section of the eom- Mr. HUGHES: I have. The second alle- maunity was the abolition of distress for gation I make against the Government is rent. Again the Government did nothing. with regard to its f ailure to do anything to It was not at all interested in bringing the have passed the legislation that it required. law up to date. It was left to the member For the last 30 years I have heard from the for Canning (Mr. Cross) to take the initia- platform at each election remarks about the tive, and this he did snccessfully. Be is now difficulties of the Government, particularly -obliged to go further in this direction. That the Labour Government, about putting its was something which should have occupied wishes into legislative form under the exist- the attention of the Government. Bat the ing Constitution. There were tines when it Giovernment will do nothing that is likely to was even urged that the Legislative Council involve it in any labour or anything conten- should be abolished. Time after tine a Bill tious. I have just one wore illustration. In goes to another place to be arbitrarily re- this case I can perhaps borrow from Pro- jected, Bills of the utmost importance to fessor Murdoch, and say, "Speaking per- the policy of the Government, and Bills deal- esonally." A Bill was brought down to ing with industrial legislation. We have .amend the Constitution. Surely the time is heard ravings and rantings outside the House long past for a revision of the powers as concerning the iniquity of the Legislative between the Legislative Council and this Council in throwing oat these Bfis. I sub- House. In 1911, in Great Britain, the pro- mit there is no sincerity in the protests which blem was tackled and solved, in a very effi- have been made over the last 15 years con- cient and successful manner. Deadlocks cerning the rejection of measures of Govern- -occurred between the two Houses. When ment policy. We ean take it f rom the in- they did occur, the then Prime Minister took action of the Government that it is glad to his courage in hand and went to the country. have the Legislative Couincil to throw out He got a mandate from the people. As a these industrial measures. It gives them a result of that act of courage, he was able to talkcing point for the next election for cer- have an Act passed in 1911, which gave the tain industrial constituencies. It tickles the electors, of Great Britain power to have put ears, particularly of the industrial workers, [7 DECEMBER, 1937.] 2331 with what it would do if the Upper House its policy into effect Then he went on to would allow it to do those things. What say- would it not do were it not for the obstruc- It is so vital that it occupies a prominent tion of the Upper House? But over that place in the fighting platform section. long period of 30 years the Government has Where is this fighting section in which this not made one effort to curtail the powers of Bill occupied such a prominent place? another place. Let us take some of the in- There is no fighting section--so far as the dustri~l Bills that went to another place Legislative Council is concerned. The Legis- last session. I would instance the Factories lative Council has got the Government and Shops Act Amendment, the Fair Rents thoroughly cowed I There is no fight left Bill, the Industrial Arbitration Act Amend- anywhere in it. I suppose the day may ment Bill, the Mining Regulation Act come-perhaps it may; I hope it will-when Amendment, the Pearling Crews Accident the Minister for "Unemployment" will tire Assurance Fund, and the State Government of terrorising me and putting the fear of God Insurance Office Bill. These six Bills were into me, and will take on the gentlemen of of the utmost importance to the Government, the Upper House. But, of course, he does according to the statements made from the not want the Legislative Council altered, opposite side of the House. The Minister be- for Railways became very annoyed this ses- cause his political sales talk would be gone. sion when I suggested that the Fair Rents Perhaps one day the menmbers of the Upper House Bill was only a kite, that he knew it would will play a practical joke and pass not be passed by the Legislative Council, one of these Bills. Then the Minister went that we all knew it would not be passed, and onl to say- that when the Legislative Council threw it The member in question- out no action would be taken. In due course The Minister was referring to me- another place threw the Bill out, just as -aa given the public to understand, and even- member of the Chamber knew it would the workers of East Perth in particular to do. Not a word of protest came from the understand, that he of all Labour Then is the most genuine, the most vigorous, the moat Government; there was not even a word of valuable, that lie of all Labour men is the only protest on the floor of the House. The State one really sincere, the only one prepared to Government Insurance Bill has gone to the pint up a fight for the establishmient of Labour Upper House, I suppose, at least four times, p~rinciples. and has been rejected on every occasion. If the workers of East Perth understand Notwithstanding this, the Government takes that, all I can say is that it is very good for no steps to alter the Constitution so that their understanding. I think their under- such legislation can be passed if it is de- standing of this point was materially de- sired by' the public. Just to show that this rived fromn an address delivered by the is anl important matter of Government Minister at the corner of Brisbane and Stir- policy, I should like to refer to the speech ling streets one night. I think he was of the Minister who introduced the Bill last unduly modest in giving me all the credit in session. This is reported on page 951 of connection with the last East Perth election. "Hansard" of the Ist October, 1936. It is However in his speech he went on to sa-- just a bright little spot in a column of Yet here in this Bill is contained a vital abuse that was devoted to me. The Minister part, a vital principle of Labour policy. said, in his best debating club style, "I sup- Well, the Legislative Council promptly dis- pose' it is no use reminding the bell. member embowelled the policys vital parts, without (my~self) that the proposal contained in the so much as a protest from this gentleman Bill in a vital part of the Labour platform." who talks so much of fighting sections. I It was no use reminding me that it was a notice from the report in "Hansard" that I vital part of the Labour platform. I sup- got in an interjection at that stage and said, pose' it was not of fity use reminding me. "Will vou make a fight if the Council throws Long ago I found from experience that there it out ?" The M1inister replied- is no Labour platform, except at election Our friend cannot provide a smoke screen time, just talking points, and that so far as for himself in that way. On this Bill he is legislation goes, the Upper House can go on lining himself up with every member of the and on for eternity rejecting vital planks Council who will fight the measure. He now stands unmasked for what be is, am absolute of the Labour Party's platform, and the traitor to Labour principles, and to the workers Government will never take any steps to put in particular. (84] 2332 [ASSEMBLY.]

Lining up! I remember that on one occa- simply treated the Bill with contemp1 t, and sion the Minister accused me of lining up threw it out. We heard all sorts of threats with two titled gentlemen who were direc- that were breathed from the Government tors of insurance companies. If I remember benches about what would happen to the ariglit, it was during the discussion on the Legislative Council if it continued to defy Bill to which I am referring. There are the Government mnd prevented the Govern- some very nice people who are directors of ment from putting its p)olicy into operation. insurance companies in this State. True, I was unsophisticated enough to think that there are some very masty people politically, dire consequences would follow if the L~s I suppose. For instance, there is the Hon. lative Council persisted in its action and I H. S. W. Parker, who is a director of the warned one or two of the members of that Eagle, Star and British Dominions Insur- Chamber to mind their step this session. I ance Company. I suppose in the eyes of am sorry to say that they simply laughed, the member for Northarn (the Minister for and the Council threwv the Bills out just the Employment) Mr. Parker is a most undesir- .same. We had a most deplorable spectacle able person politically, because he does not here on Thursday night. The Government's support his party. Lining up with 'NAY. policy iI- think it is a very wvise policy- Parker there is the Hon. A. Clydesdale , the that the exemption in connection with the selected Labour candidate for the forthcom- financial emergency tax shall not he a fixed ing Mfetropolitan-Suburban contest at the amount per wee-k. hut shall he an amount next Legislative Council elections. 'When it equal to the basic wage, which fluctuates comes to a question of "lining up," I think fronm time to time. That is a wvise and I shall be able to show this House that the humane polity. and, of course, we know it is Minister would] be wvell advised to keep silent a policy of utmost importance to the lower because the gentlemen opposite have lined paid workers of Western Australia. We all up with some strange affiliations, particu- hoped when the measure went to the Legris- larly when we look back over the course of lative Council for the second time-I think, time. What about the State Government speaking from memory, the same amuend- insurance Office Bill? If the Government ments went to the Council as (luring the desires to make the State Government Insur- previous sessio-- ance Office a legal entity, it can do so within Mr. SPEAKER : The hion. member is 48 hours without the consent of the Legisla- wandering again. He knows he is not en- tire Council and it can give the office a titled to discuss a Bill that has been before monopoly of the insurance business. Every the House this ssioii. one knows that. Everyone knows that if Mr. HUGHES: Not even one that has the Government really wants to convert it been disposed of' into a legal institution, it can be done within a very' brief period and it can be given a Mr. SP3EAKFR : 'No. The hon. member monopoly in connection with the insurance cannot deal with a Bill that has been before business. But that would not be very pala- the House this session. table to their comrade, Insurance Director Mr. HUGHES: J am sorry for that. I Clydesdale! It would not be aceeptable if will have to deal with the Bill that 'va be- they were to rob the poor director of his fore members, during last session. Last year fees in that way. But the Government does we sent to the Council a Bill that provided not want the State Insurance Office made a for a basic wage exemption and that phase, leralt institution. If it did, Ministers would as I have pointed out, was supposed to be fight with that end in view. They would of vital importance to the Labour policy. either challenge the Upper House or they It certaialy was of the utmost importance to would take steps to legalise the Office. wvhich the lower paid industrial workers of the they Ofl know bow to do, I am sure. Here State. Another place calmly rejected the wve hare this matter of rital importance on measure, and the Government took it ly'ing the TLabour platform, and it has been of that down. Where is this fighting section that vital importance for a verv long time. Then the Mfinister for Employment speaks about ? there was the Fair Rents Bill. We were told Is it eridently only to fight the relief that measure was of the utmost importance workers for their 25s. a year' Is that to the industrial workers of Kalgoorlie. We the maximum of the Government's warlike were told that last session and ag-ain this activities? Are its%fighting activities eon- sesson. The irentleiuen of the Upper House fined to getting that 25s. a year from the [7 Duxama, 1937.3].3 2333 relief workers and uttering false and eni- would not be discernible outside the ruck. ini libels under Parliamentary privilege? in 1932 it was proposed to levy ,a Is that all the fighting section can do? The tax for the purpose of relieving unemploy- workers outside are noticing these matters. ment and the Government of the day of To-day the talk regarding the Upper House which the member for York, the Leader of is getting very stale, and the rank and the Opposition (Hon. C. G. Lathani) was file tay they have heard it for the last 20 a member, had recourse to the establish- .years. The Government has no intention ment of a flat rate of wages tax. of doing anything. The Government's And it was alleged that the purport of the policy regarding the Legislative Council tax was to provide relief for the unemployed. mar well he summed up in the words of When in Committee on that Bill-the re- the member for Boulder (Hon. P. Collier) port will be found on page 1336 of "Hall- when lie uttered the prayer, "-Thank God sard,"1 vol. 2, of 1932,--the hon. member, Mr. for the Upper House." Then, with regard J. C. Wileock, who was then Deputy- to the support of the "West Australian" Leader of the Opposition, moved an amend- newspaper, I think that rests entirely on inent, as follows: the services rendered by the Government That in lines 2 anid 83 of Subelause 2 the in the interests of the wealthier section of words "~the Conisolidated Revenue Fund for the the community in shifting the incidence of use of His -MaJesty' be struck out, and the taxation from the shoulders of the better- words '"a trust fund at the Treasury which shall be expended in providing work for the paid people to those of the workers. I unemployed'' be inserted in lieu. venture to say that if to-miorrow the Gov- ernment were to dare to alter the incidence In 1932 from his place on the Opposition of the wages tax and abandoned the Bench, Mr. J. C. Willoock moved that the £1,000,000 they get from the workers by whole of the moneys collected from the wages means of that tax, and shifted the burden tax should be earmarked for the relief of onl to the shoulders of the wealthier sec- unemployment. That -was a very proper tion of the community, immediately the amendment for the hon. inember to move. support of the "West Australian" would The Government of the dlay allkged be lost, because, very naturally, that news- that it was receivinig this tax for the re- paper stands for putting as much taxation lief of unemployment, and the hon. member on to the lower paid manl as is possible. did the rig-ht thing in saying in effect, "'Well, Tt is always said that the paper's attitude let it be a trust fund for the unemployed." has not changed iii any way, but the Min- The great regret is that he did not carry his ister for Employment, when asked a ques- amendment on that occasion. Of course the tion the other night, indicated that it had Government of the day had perhaps a very changed in one instance. In this ease, how- good answer to this proposal, because at the ever, the "West Australian" newvspaper time when the hon. member moved his amend- has not changed, but he and his colleagues ment the Government of the day had ex- have arrived at a different way of thinking. pended from revenue £346,956 in relief of If they had paid that £1,000,000 a year out the unemployed. So the Government of the of their own pockets for the support of day was expending virtually £347,000 from the "West Australian," it -would not be so revenue in relief of the unemployed, and wron~n but that money liaq come ont until the tax reached that figure it could of the pockets of the industrial workers of truthfully say, "We are applying the whole the State. On the question of the finan- of the wages tax to the relief of the unemn- cial emergency tax the florernment has ployed. True, we are not doing it by way turned right about face. At the expense of a trust fund, but we are doing it in- of some repetition and, of course. of directly." flowerer, the hon. member for bringing down the wrath of the member Geraldton wanted to make doubly sure that for 'Northam on my head, I intend to nro- it would be a trust fund exclusively for the ced with an examination of the collections relief of the unemployed, and so he moved from the financial emergency tax. The his amendment. I am sorry that that amlend- Minister says it is vry stupid of me not ment was not carried. Had it been carried to understand. If I understood the position. there would not have been any unemployed and the rest of the comxnuitv understood in 'Western Australia to-day because there the position asr he understands it, he is no reason for unemployment in Western 2334 [ASSEMBLY.]

Australia to-clay. The enormous amount of But in 1936-37 the wages tax again increased money collected from the wages tax in re- by £150,000 and it reached the enormous cent years has been more than sufficient to figure of £C971,000, which is only £29,000 abolish the spectre of unemployment. short of £1,000,000). And all that the Gov- Strangely enough, the more money the Gov- ernment could find for the relief of unem- ermnent got from the wvages tax the less ployment was £61,000; all that the Govern- money did thre Government provide from ment could find was a miserable £51,000, revenue in relief of unemployment. In which is not a shilling in the pound. So the 1932-33 the financial emergency tax pro- Government netted a profit of £920,000 from duced only £202,000, but the Government the wages tax over and above the moneys provided from revenue in relief of unein- it gave from revenue in relief of un- ploynJnt £347,000. So the Government pro- emi)loymnent, and recived f89,000 new rev- vidledl from revenue 75 per cent, more than enue from the goldmining tax. So that was was collected from the wages tax, and a', increase of more than a million pounds so it could truthfully say that itk was in taxation over and above the money spent applying to the relief of unemployment in relief of unemployment. every penny collected from the wages tax. Hon. C. G. Latham: Of course you can In the following year there was a change of never satisfy this Government with money. Government. It is not right to say that Mr. HUGHES: No, I do not suppose either Government had the whole of the tax you could. for that year, because one Government had Hon. C. G. Latham: Whereas we would it for the first part of the year and the 'be very easily satisfied if we were on that other Government had it for the second part. side. The tax produced in that year £42,000, an Mr. HUGHES: It makes the criticism by increase of more than double the amount the members of the Government when they produced in the previous year. But were in Opposition and attacking the Gov- although the returns from the tax were ernment of the day for not providinig full- doubled, the relief of unemployment from time employment-it makes their criticism rCeeue was reduced from £347,000, to sound very hollow in retrospect when they', £232,000, at drop of approximately 40 per wvith over a million pounds additional ta- cent. So although the tax bad increased by tion, could not find full-time employment, 100 per cent., the grant from revenue in aid hut compelled lpeople to live on the miser- of the unemployed was reduced by 40 per able pittance of a shilling a day. We who cent. The following year was a year en- represent metropolitan constituencies, and I tirely controlled by the Government oppo- suppose to a certain extent other members site. That was the year 1934-35. Again the who represent mining and agricultural dis- tax "-cut up, this time by £200,000, and it tricts, know there is a class of unfor- produced £685,000. But although the tax tunate people in this community who, al- p)roduced £685,000 the grant from revenue though they are not sufficiently invalided to in aid of the unemployed was reduced to get the invalid pension and are not old £72,000. Actually £C270,000 additional tax enough to get the old age pension, yet by was collected, but £160,000 less was contribu- virtue of physical disability or from lack ted from revenue in aid of unemployment. of being able to get work, have no employ- In tho following year, 1935-36, the tax merit. Those people are compelled to live jumped another £200,000, and the collections on 7s. a week. The Federal Government totalled £827,000, while the unemployed provides for an old-age pensioner a subsis- gant from revenue was further reduced an- tence of £1 per week, and provides also far other £22,000. So after- collecting, £827,000 an invalid pensioner a subsistence of ft. there wa- applied only £48,000 from revenue per week; this because-and in this in ielief of unemployment. The Government I suppose it is supported by every- was their netting a clear quarter of a million one in the community-it is the mini- pounds moire from the wages tax than it was mum amount upon which an adult per- giving- from revenue in relief of the unenm- son can get food and clothing. But the pre ployed, to say nothing of an additional sent State Government with a million pounds £77,000 from a new form of taxation, the additional taxation in its pocketq as goldinining tax, which had produced £83,00 against what it had five years ago, makes in the previous year and £77,000 in 1935-36. three people exist on 21s. a week, namely a [7 flsr~xnn, 1937.] 2335 man, his wife, and his child. A man who is suffering and human wvelfare. The first re- unable to find work, either from physical sponsibility of the Government and of Par- disability or from lack of opportunity, is liament should be to see that those people compelled by the present State Government who are unable to help themselves, and par- to subsist on 21s. a week, which is only is. ticularly rowing children, are properly a week greater than the Federal Government looked after. After all, health is the most provides for adult invalid and old age peu- valuable of all assets. We know that the sioners. Premier had the misfortune to be ill before Hon. C. G. Lathain: And with an in- he went away, and that on his return he was creased cost of living on that. improved in health, and every member of M.%r.HUGHES: Yes, that is so. However, this House was glad to see that restoration you had better be careful, or you will know to health. Some members went to great Of it. pains to express that pleasure. But why Hon. C. G. Latham: No, 1 did not attend any person should want to express his the party meeting this afternoon. pleasure at seeing someone in good health, Mr. HUGHES: I submit that not only I (10 not know. It goes without saying, and are the people whom the Government force it should be accepted as a maxim, that we to live on a shilling a day being injured are always glad to see our fellow citizens in for the present, but they are having physi- good health. Everybody in the community cal and mental injuries inflicted on them is glad to see people enjoying good health, which will last them for as long as they live. and we should not find anyone in the com- I believe it is impossible to provide for a munity, civilised or uneivilised-if we really growing child, whether it be a baby in arms are a civilised community when we compel or a child of 13 or 14 years of age, the people to live undeT conditions such as I necessary sustenance and nutrition to allow have described-being desirous to do other- that child's body to develop physically and wise than to prevent il-health. Of course mentally, on a shilling a day. I submit that many of us bring about a state of il-health, a shilling a day will not provide the neces- not through lack of food but through eating sary minimum of sustenance for a growing too much. Many of us are not feeling as fit child. If you build a healthy body in the as we really should because of the quantity child in its childhood days and in its youth, and the quality of the food we eat, but I do when it comes to manhood or womanhood say that what children are given to eat be- and the body is matured and settled, the tween the ages of babyhood and 14 ycars is body will stand intense privations and great that which builds up for them a sound body strain, and although it may be temporarily for their later years of life. It would pay weakened, a replenishment of the necessary us, no matter where we got the money, to food will bring the body back to normal. provide at least three times as much food But if you do not put a healthy and sound and clothing for the unfortunate section of constitution into the child you cannot put the community. In this way not only are it into it at a later age. As a result we assisting the individual to build up a of malnutrition and lack of food a healthy body, but if we look at it from the body becomes weakened, and it fails to point of view of the community as a whole develop at the proper developmental stage and make those bodies healthy, we will re- when the body is in course of growth. lieve the State of the obligation of support- It is not only inflicting privations on adults, ing the unhealthy bodies in the days to come. but it is inflicting privations on the future citizens of Western Australia. Children are Therefore no Government is entitled to the being deprived of necessary nutrition, and confidence of a Parliament, or to the coafi- so are not being given the opportunity to deuce of the people, or even to the confidence build up a healthy body. The result will of any dominant newspaper, that cannot see be that they will suffer not only in body but far enough ahead from the public point of in mind as well, while they are living on view to realise that if we are going to have this earth, even though they attain the deficient and deformed children, they must allotted span of three score years and ten. become a burden on the State. The member I submit that I am right when I say that for Northam. told us that he was going to be the Minister for Employment is callous in more callous in the future. I submit that allowing this state of affairs to continue; I was not very creditable to him or to his Giov- submit he is callous and indifferent to human erment, and I do not think he can be more 2336 2Z16[ASSEMBLY.] eallous than to keep so many unfortunate Registrar and in reply to the inquiries that people on Is. a day. If he can be more cal- officer wvrote on the 30th April, 1937: Ions, and if he has a sadistic enough tem- I beg to acknowledge recipt of your letter perament to want to be more callous, we of the 30th inst. forwarding a list of names of mnust take steps to remove him from the men protesting against being compelled to join temptation. The Government has received the Australian Workers' Union, and referring a million pounds wore from taxation and I to the 'Municipal and Bond Board Employees' Uniona. In reply to your inquiry, I can only say it advisedly, and it should be repeated state that the Coastal Municipal Road Board a~t every opportunity, that there is no rea- Employees' Trlustrial U~nion of Workers is the son, and no sound ground, for people being only union registered under the provisions of obliged to live on Is. a day, or for their the Industrial Arbitration Act, 19l2-1935, re- being lating to the industry of road making and re- on relief or sustenance work at all.' pairing, in this part of Western Australia. Tbt: With that additional million pounds from Australian Workers' Union is not registered in taxation, surely the Government can find respect of that industry. Tt is registered in re- sufficient initiative and ingenuity to provide spect of the pastoral and agritLultural, and also full-time work for all. The brain of the the mining industiies. Minister for Employment is sufficiently fer- On the strength of the opinion of the In- tile to enable himi to do that. We know that dustrial Registrar, the men took action and when the Government wants money for eec- tried to get their conditions improved; but tion purposes, or to pay the costs of one of before they wrote to the Industrial Regis- its supporters, it can then conjure up tragr they approached the union and re- initiative and ingenuity to enable it to ceived this extraordinary letter from Mlr. get it from the lean pockets of the unem- Dalton, acting secretary of the A.W.U. The ployed. We know that the Government has letter is dated the 23rd April, 1937. demanded from the unfortunate relief and Yours of the 19th inst. to hand and contents sustenance workers a sum of 25s. to be paid noted. to the A.W.U., part of it, of course, being Re resolut ion 1. Whilst it is a regrettable to relieve members from the payment of their fact that another Organisation covering the own election expenses. sqamre class of work as you people -ire doing Mr. Lambert: I wish that were true. at present has an award slightly better than, the A.W.U., t would remind you and other Mr. HLUGHES: It is true. One has only Memibers that thle policy Of this Government is to examine the balance sheet of the A.W.L". '1'referecee to Unionists,'' nad that the agree- ment -with all union secretaries is along the to find out just how much is contributed for lines that each organisation will control the lob that purpose, and uinder the condition that for which they have an award or agreement unless the relief and sustenance workers are for. prepared to pay that illegal impost, their I have not been in tnn el' with 'Mr. Xerr on wives and children will be condemned to this matter, but I sm. at least positive he would starvation. If the Minister for Employ- have no wish at this Juncture to ''white-ant'' ment can become more callous than that, any otter o~rgqnisatin1n. then God help the people on the lower rung. It is a regrettable fact that men working Men are forced to work for lower wages under an award governing- road making cn than those to which they are entitled. Re- get more wages than they are entitled to cently sonme men working- in the metropoli- receive under the agreement with the tan area. decided that they should get the A.WEU One would have thought that 'Mr. wages of the Municipal and Road Board Dalton would have rejoiced that the men, Employeoes' Union. The members; of that by joining the Municipal Employees' Union. union were paid at a hig-her rate than that wonld receive more wages. But no. He provided for by the A.WJ'. Very naturally, writes, "I remind you and other members the men not receiving that wage wanted to that the policy of the Government is 'Pre- get the best couditions they could. I always ference to unionists.' " The Municipal thought that that was the right of every Employees' Union is registered and has been working man. We know that once an award an industrial organisation for years. What is made, by virtue of the conmmon-rule pro- visions under the Arbitration Act, that is there to regret about a working man award becomes a common rule for the par- being- desirous of getting more wages! ticular industry throuighout the State. Those men made inquiries from the Industrial Sittilig .sw(peindrd fromi C.1 tM 7.30 p.m. [7 DECEMBER, 1937.] 23V3

Mr. IUOIIES: Leaving the question I by supprvssion of information and by re- was Onl just before tea, I turn now to the fusials to allow witnesses to answer questions main item Olt wvhich my motion is based. what the member for Northam (Hon. A. R. It will be, remembered that one of the alle- G. Ilawke) calls an expert and impartial gations I made in connection with the re- Commissioner found that my statements cent inquiry by Royal Commission was that were not true. They were true in substance things were1 not all in order regarding the and in fact. The late 'Mr. McCallumn, from granting of licenses and that Senator E. B. the very inception, wa a real owner of the Johnston was receiving a remarkable pre- Captain Stirling Hotel. When he took over ference in that respect. At the inquiry a p~ortfolio from the Minister for Lands, Sir Walter James, KOC., described that with the oonsent of the member for Boulder, allegation as a wicked falsehood without anti promulgated regulations allowing that foundation. There was in connection with hotel to be built at Nediands he was doing it that inquiry a suggestion that the Captain in his own interests and onl his own behalf. Stirling Hotel, in Nedlands, was not solely And of course that wvas well known. The the property of Senator Johnston, hut was worst feature of the whole business is that in part the property of Ministers of the when we camle to that inquiry, public men Crown. After having every opportunity' to holding responsible positions in this State, discover the facts, after having Senator the member for Boulder, the Minister for Johnston and the member for Boulder Lands and Sir Walter James, withheld that (Hon. P. Collier) in the witness box on information from the Commissioner. When oath before himt, the Commissioner came the member for Boulder was put in the wit- to the conclusion that there was no foun- ness-box, he was asked, "Are you interested (lation for the allegation I had made. in hotels?" He replied, "I do not think Although serious things had taken place, that is a fair question." We were specifi- even to the extent of a portfolio being cally inquiring into the very question transferred from one Minister to another, whether 'Ministers of the Crown were inter- ested in hotels& Thle Commissioner, the Commissioner said that my statements this im- partial Comissioner, upheld the member for were without foundation. So for the time Boulder and he was allowed to refuse to being it looked as though I were in error answer. The memuber for Boulder was then regarding the Captain Stirling Hotel. Rut asked, "Are you interested wi4th Senator one Minister of the Crown, unfortunately, Johnston ?" Again lie refused to answer, and has since passed away. If there was no- again the Commissioner upheld him. When thing more at stake, the charitable thing Senator Johnston was in the witness-hox, he would be to let the incident die with him. told the Commissioner, "This land is held in That is what one would like to do. One trust by Mr. N. B. Robinson." The Com- would like to say, "The man has passed missioner was a King'Is Counsel who bad beyond the pale, and whatever our difer- spent a lifetime in cross-examining witnes- in this life they stop there.'' ences were ses, and lie never thought to ask Senator But unfortunately many of uts are alive, Johnston, "For whom?"' Of course be did and on Thursday last we found that not not want to know for whomn the land watz only are many of us alive but that owing to held in trust. Sir Walter James, King's lack, of information somec of uts are being Counsel and chairman of the National Party, designated liars, cheats and thieves. There- was present representing -Mr. McCallum, fore it is necessary for mie to make this 'Mr. Collier and others, and he never thought disclosure in the House. As a matter of to ask, "In trust for whom? Nfir. Wolif, fact, the executors of the estate of the late another Ring's Counsel, was present, and be Hon. Alexander 'Mcallumi have startedi never thought to ask, "In trust for whom?" lezral proceedings to recover from Sen,,tor 'Mr. Keafl, who was being paid from public Johnston £10,000 as representiner Mr. Ale- funds to assist tile Commissioner, did not Callnim's share in the Captain Stirling ask, "For whom ?" Of all these leading 1Thn-1. All the time, from the very' in- practitioners. not one thought to ask for r> inn. Mr. McCallum was half-owner of whom Mr. Robinson held the land in trust. the Captain 'Stirling Hotel. The worst There is, of course, only one possible infer- feature of it all is that although the ence, that the reas~on why the question was fact was well known to many of us that not asked was that all of them knew the land Mr. MceCallum was interested in the hotel, was held in trust for a Minister of the 2338 [ASSEMBLY.]

Crown and that they did not want that in- There is a most extraordinary series of truqt formation to become public. Rather than documents and secrecy clothing the trans- allow it to become public, they permitted action. The solicitor who buys the land this Commissioner to come from Queensland executes a deed of trust that he holds the at the public expense-as the Auditor land in trust for Mrs. E. B. Johnston and General's report shows, he received a fee of another party. There is then a deed of part- £1,000-and to bring in a report that was nership entered into between Mrs. Johnston false, because he rejected the evidence that and a third party under which they hold the would have allowed him to find the fact. Et hotel in equal shares, hut under which I said there was nothing at all in my allega- understand, Senator Johnston had to find tions. If a legal practitioner, knowing a all the money for the hotel. person is guilty, pleads not guilty and de- The SPEAKER; Order! The time for fends that person, he is struck off the roll. notice of motions has now expired. The most famous Australian case in point is Hon. C. G. Latham: Owing to the import- that of Dick Meagher, who defended Dean ance of this motion, mid the necessity for the poisoner, and boasted afterwards that he its being dealt with as expeditiously ats knew Dean was guilty. Meagher was struck possible, I move- off the roll. Notwithstanding his having That an extension of time be granted. been 30 years off the roll and being Lord Motion put and passed. Mayor of Sydney, it took an Act of Parlia- Mr. HUGHES: As I was aying, there is ment to put him back on the roll. Now, a partnership agreement nder which the Sir Walter James-paid, I believe, out of hotel is to he held in equal shares by Mr. the public Treasury-went to that Commis- R. B. Johnston and a third party. The sion knowing full well that Mr. McCallum third party then executes another deed of was part owner of the hotel, and he black- trust, a secret deed of trust, under which h guarded me and conspired to exclude the holds all his interests in the partnership for true testimony. If there was any justic in Mr. Alexander MeT~Callum. If any Minister this country, Sir Walter James would be of the Crown wanted a hotel there is no struck off the roll. It was a strange situa- reason in the world why he should not have tion, the Chairman of the National Party at- applied to the Licensing Court for a license. tending the Commission for the purpose of If you, Sir, or I as private citizens, want a keeping out evidence, objecting to this and hotel, we have a perfect right to go to the objecting to that. So it has now come out. Licensing Court and apply and, if we are There is a legal nmaximn that secrecy is the to accept Mr. Roosevelt's code of public badge of fraud. Mr. Robinson, the solicitor, ethics, we should do so in our own name when he got the land, executed a deed of without any attempt at secrecy. There was trust. And let not this be forgotten: Mr. nothing in the world to stop those two people McCallum, then a Minister, never put one applying for a license, but they did not like shilling into the venture. The £5 deposit to do it. First there was a solicitor put up which be paid on the land in the first place ais a dummy with a deed of trust. Secondly, he insisted on getting back from Mrs. John- there was a partnership agreement and then ston and his executors are to-day claiming there was a third deed of trust, all being £10,000 for his share in that hotel. What secret, giving the interest to a Minister of we ought to do-it is no use complaining the Crown. I do not suppose that the Minis- unless one suggests a remedy-is to pass ter for Employment will stand up in the legilation eonfiscatinfr that hotel to the House and withdraw his allegation that I Crown. subject only to encumbrances made was proven a liar, a cheat and a thief. in good faith, so that neither Mrs. Johnston I do not care whether he does or does nor Mr. 'MeCallum's executors may derive not, because I leave the issue, or can any benefit from the transacion. Parlia- leave it when I am finished, for members ment should say. "This hotel was not of this House to determine whether obtained by fair means. We are not going or not I was telling the truth at the inquiry. to penalise any person who has acted in There is niow conclusive proof that my good faith and advanced money on mort-, charge was true in substance and in fact and gage, but we are going to say to the parties that if the inquiry had been inipartial, and concerned that they are not to have the if we had been allowed to put in the ovi- benefit of transaction. We shall pass legis- d1ence, the Comumis.ioner could not have lation confiscating the hotel to the Crown." found a., he dlidl finid, that everything- was [7 DEmBE, 1937.] 233923 in order in connection with the Licensing and that a few days before Mr. MeCallum. Bench. This transaction in respect to the retired he promulgated regulations which licence at Nedlands goes a good deal further gave him the right to build the hotel at Ned- because it involves other people, aend I say lands. I suggested that that was a very im- advisedly that in view of his connection with proper transaction. As a matter of fact, as this transaeatioui the member for Boulder the evidence will show, as we unfold it, the (lion. P. Collier) ought not to vote on tins Minister for Lands was so incensed at the motion, He should not sit in judgment on transfer of the department from him that his own ease. Before looking at the volumi- he went to the Premier and tendered his nous evidence pat before the Commission I resignation, that is on his own evidence. 1 will deal with the Auditor General's report believe that up to that date if there 'was any which is very illuminating. When the Royal blame attachable to anybody there was none Commissioner camc to this State the first attachable to the Minister for Lands; but it thing that happened "'as that he was given is of the suppression of evidence afterwards the services of M.Nr.IKeall, a city solicitor, to that I complain, when it became a case of assist him with the Commission. Sir Walter Sttppressing the truth in order to save the James, K.C. then appeared for the Ministers Government. The story of this hotel, from of the Crown, the Hon. P. Collier and Mr. the records of the Commission, is told by Alexander MecCallum, wtile MrT. Wolff, KCC. the Town Planning Commissioner (Mr. appeared for the Crown Law Department Davidson). It starts at page 627- and the Licensing Court. So we had Mr. By the Commissioner: Are you in the em- }Iart, K.C. of Queensland, Sir Walter ploynient of the board or are you in the Gov- James, K.C. of Western Australia, Mr. ernmnt servicee -I am in the Government ser- Wolff, K.C. of Western Australia and Mr. vice. KealI, a fair array of legal talent for ex- By Mr. Hughes: At Nedlands originally was it possible0 to have a hotel or a picture show? tracting the truth. According to the report Sir Walter James: I object to that question. of the Auditor General, this Commission cost the State the following amounts- Mr. Davidson's story was this:- There was 9 s. d. a proposal to create a shopping area at Commissioner 's fees, fares anid ex- Nedlands and certain lands. were designated penses .. . .- .. 988 16 8 for that purpose, but an objection was taken Solicitors' legal charges . .. 457 15 0 to the inclusion of a picture show. Perhaps Secretary'Is honorarium . - 10 10 0 if I read Mr. Davidson's statement it may Typists' honorarium .. . 5 60 Witnesses .. . . 29 2 10 save time. I begin at question 5451- Sundries .. . .5 13 3 54H1. By the UonMuissioner: The witness call, in answering the question, refer to the Total £1,497 3 1 period about 1934 or 19351-1 think I can clear the whole position if I make a definite I stuck to the Commission for ten days try- statement as to the facts. Unless I do that, ing to get in evidence, hut was frustrated at Mr. Hughes will be probing in the dark. every turn. Apparently my efforts brought 5452. Very wvell; go abcad?-In 1931 the some reward to my legal brethren at least, road board formulated the Town, Planning anything but Scheme which fixed certain areas in which even if they did not bring people could put up shops and houses, and ignominy to myself. I do not know whether where they could not put up shops. Thus they Sir Walter James's fees were paid out of divided the Ldistrict into two classes. That that £457 1s. 6d. I presume Mr. Keall's scheme remained, with minor amendments that were. if Sir Walter James was paid he had the growth of the suburb required, for about no right to be, because he was appearing for three years. 5453. By Sir Walter James: At this stage private individuals. Coming to the question can you put in a copy of that scheme 1-Yes. of the hotels, my allegation in substance was -5454. By the Commisioner:. That is the 1931 that in order to allow a hotel to be built at sel'ewe?-Yes, I stall refer to it as the parent Nedlands, the then Premier (Mr. Collier) scheme. Tile particulars appeared in the "Gov- transferred the portfolio of Town Planning eameut Gazette.I' from the Ifinistor for Lands (Hon. 31. F. 54,55. 1 undestand fomn you thalt the scheme Troy) to the Mfinister for Public Works separated the Nedlands area into two parts, in one of which shops and residenees could be (Mr. McCallum), a few days before Mr. built, and only residences in the other, and McCallum left public life to take up a job that that schemne remained in force for three as Conmnissioner of the Agricultural Bank; rears?--Yes. On about the 28th July, 1933, 2340 [ASSEMBLY.]

somte people Piroposeda ito construct anl open- And the Minister ruled in the final result hi r picture thentre, and in front of it to erect that a picture show premises would not be a some shops. The plans for erection were passed shop ?-Yes, and thle Minister ruled on the ad- by the road lboardl, which is the constituted vice of tbe Crown Solicitor, who relied upon authority, andI passedil by the Works Depart- English case law with regard to hotels, and mnent, on behlfl of tile Health Department, thus held that n picture shlow As not a shop. which is a mer-e formality, having reference to You will find that on the file. The Minister, fire escapes, and that sort of thing. But the following onl his decision, served formal notic!e people wh~o were residing in that part of the on the road board to demolish the picture show. locallity took the Point that a Picture showv was The premises had been partly constructed? flot a ''shop,'' and therefore thle proposal was -Yes, they arc still in the same condition and anl infringement of the wording of the scheme. can lie seen to-day. That went back to the road Under the Ton~ Planning Act, they had the board, the members of w-hich, acting on their right to approach tile 'Minister for Towni Plan- own solicitors' advice, refused to take any filing, who w'as Mr. Tro 'v. and lie was empowered action. The Minister then had one course open to him, namely, to serve a writ on the to have an inquir 'v as to board whether the proposed to conmpel them to take notice of the order. builidings really constituted anl infringement The Ilinister did not do that, and that, I think, of the seliena-.* L He]tld that inquiry, and is the period to which Mr. Hughes refers as was assisted by the Crown Solicitor, %fr. that during which the Minister did nothing. Wlker, fall the (other people l,:ic their The road board and the Town Planning Board own counsel. 1 thinuk it was Mrfi. Virtue. were always of opinion, although there had I believe Sir Walter -James nnay have given lieen technical objeiction to the word not in- sonic advice as9 well, but I am nt surce about eluding a picture show, that tile picture shlow that. Tile result w-as that the Minister ruled could be provided there, and if it were not to that the erection of tie picture show would loe go there , we would not be following the uormal ain infringement of the sehitie, and served deovelopmient of an Australia,, town. Then the notice, prepla red by the C'rown Solicitor, on road board carried a resolution to amplify anti the roaid lboard. to show that the structure, specify the meaning of the word ''shoppi'ng,'' wich was portly- puot up. was removed. .and thus tnrn it into a. business area- That Practically the Minister hall the right of changed the character of the scheme, and speci- veto ?-Yes. fied that they might go into tile shopping areas. By 'Mr. ]

Court, and it becameo a matter of a battle of to the amplification of the scheme. The Mini- sites, which were on either side of the road ister for Works was then the 'Minister for and within a few chtins of each other. One Local Government. of the sites belonged to Mr. Johnston, so I have On what date did Mr. 'McCallum write and since ascertained, and the other to a '-%r. advise you of the tramisfer 1-On the 5th March, Dolan. I know nothing about that, as the 1935. matter did not come before me in any way; I have here an extract from -the (huvern- it was a Licensing Court matter. At the same mont Gazette " dated the 8th March 1--We are time I inquired of the Licensing Court as to coming to that. First of all, the transfer was whether any decision hall been arrived at re- made by the Executive Council on the 20th garding the respective sites, because if t he February, 1935. court hadl chosen a site, it was my bounden The Commissioner: If I lose control of a duty to bring it before the Minister, Mr. Troy, faut, it will take me half anl hour to pick it .and to tell him of it. The chairman infornd up again. me that the court hall already decided on Johnston's site next to the picture show. I Yes, I admit the Comimissioner was not tou, conveyed that to my Minister, a~nd he mer-,lv good at picking- up facts. The C'ommhissioner initialled it and passed it back. There the, continued-- matter rested. Apparently at this time the the 20th February, 193.5, there had been people controlling the licensed hotel site be- aon transfer from the M1inister for Lands to the side the picture show prepared plans to go Minister for Works. ahead with time building, and in due course put Sir Walter James; Callinet approval. those phIos before the road board. The road By the Commissioner: Yes, I see. That brcard said they could hot pass the plans until would require publication in the '' tazotte '11 they knew whether the hotel was an infringe- Onl the 5th March thmeMklrfor Works sent munrt of the shopping area. me that minute, inviting my attention to the By the Commissioner: Did that am~endment Executive Council minute. embrace the two things, the picture show and What wsas the date of time Executive Council the hotel ?-Yes, amongst them. minute No. 2539?-It was the 20th February, The ruling originally being that the picture 1035. You will find it immediately under that show was not a shop. Then the amendment minute on the file. was put forward to permit the two things in Sir Walter James: There is no need to the shopping area-(a) the picture thow, anl gazette that minute, Sir. tto make it effective. (b) the hotel. About the sme time an appli- By the Commissioner: No, I see. Very well? cation hadl been made to the Licensing Court -n the minute it was pointed out to mecthat by two individuals, of whom Johnston was tihe thuc chairman of the road board was very, successfuli applicanit. It was pat in writing anxious to clarify the position. and your Minister merely iniuted it and the By S1ir Walter .James: Hlave you read thisk dovument was kept as a recordl-Yes. Then -I could give von a i epitonme of it. the road board wrote to the Minister for Lands By the C ommissioner: That was to include ,asking whether lie ruled that a hotel wa.4 not hoth Irittun- shows and hotels 1-Yes, and ,a shop. The Minister then referred th: letter banks, andl so on. to me. I gave him an opinion and pujnted out What is puzzl ing nt is that this seemns to be the law as I read it. I pointed out that in the slightly ivmioisistemit in i tself. In it the Minis- opinion a hotel was a slmoi, but at the sanie ter says that, E'ceinutivv ( imi-i minute No. 259 time that he was not called upon to answer a transfers tie rind mul of' thet Town Planning hypothetical question of that nature, because Board to h]is 'icpartmeat. Tl'e Minister gos "n time Act provides that only when a building bi- to sayv that hit, is aware thant certain protests fringes the law can the Minister hold an in- limd baen mamdc against thet proposal of the quiry. The 'Minister, after consulting with the local author-ity, annil i mhates that he was not Crown Law Department, then wrote to the road disposed to override the local authority unless board pointing out that lie did not feel called under exceptiomnal circumstan0ces. Then wre upon to give any decision in regard to the conme to these words, which sem to Ine a little hotel as the matter was not before them under inerusistemit. 'I there is a littlhe grievance, the Act. That was the advice he had rriiivoil that should 1,:. fuitmglit im& Ito-ally without the from the two parties concerned. There the Miis5ter liig bi,n ght into it. And the matter rested. I knew no inuore about that mat- Minister gotes .in to say that the proposal of ter, not in any seinse mnor in any shapfe or form, thme 'Nedlands Dual Bo;ard, together with the because the files had been kept by the Mini- aniteninmet imide by; the Town Planning Board, one or ister following on h~is inquiry. Beyonid should hie given effect t,,. Wbat did the Minister two inir matters arising from the sc-heme, I had no pritmer record. But on the 5th March, inl lbv say ing that if tlit re was a local grior- 1935,' Mr. McCallum, who had been acting Pre- an, it sli1 he fouighit it locally ?-I think mi 'r up to a few weeks previously, wroite to lie moan't th1m if thire was :t difference locally, me anti drew thy- attention to Executive Coun- an electioin lIi...mld lit held. The Mfinister meat cil minute No. 259, dlated the 20th February, that they slm'u..l have dtnmmnratie control in 1935), wh ereby thme administration of town plan-' a lot-al sense. ning was transferred frmn '.%r. Troy t,; Mr. Bly Mir. lge-:What wag that 'late, the 'McCallum. In h0% minute, after pointing niut '10th July ?-TIhat was the dlate of the recom- that I hadl been transferred to him, te Mn me- niatiop of the Town Planning Board. ister said that the chairman of the roadlI.liaid The Ctanmisioner: Thme witness believed that had been pressing him for a decision in regard tht MNini-sei was wrong in raving that the~y 2342 [ASSEMBLY.] could not have a picture show in a shopping Sir Walter James: I submit copies of pages area. The road board was putting forward a 64 and 65. scheme, and the witness made a suggestion that The witness: That closes the matter so far as a hotel should be included as well as a pic- I am concerned, except that when the Minister ture sho0w. The amendment was suggested on .approved I put it in the ''Government Gaz- the 10 July, 1934. ette,'' and according to the Act it bad the Mr. Hughes: That was the one that Mr. force of law. Troy would not approve of. By the Comusisioner: Am I to understand that your attitude froit beginning to end hb" By the Commissioner: Mr. Troy first ruled not wavered or ehauxgcd N-It has not changed that the picture show was not a shop, and one iota. therefore hie gave the necessary direction to You thought with deepest respect that your have the partially-picture show pulled down. Minister was wrong in ruling that you could Thea the witness found that the icensig not have a picture theatre in a shopping wreal Court had granted a provisional license for -I thougkhle was wrongly instructed by the this areal next to the picture show. He scratched Crown Solicitor. his head and said, ''If a picture sllow is not You thought it was desirable that if a hotel permissible, can a hotel be permitted? -That is the preeise position. It is borne out by the was to be put anywhere, it should lie putl in the signed minute on the file. shopping area ?-Yes. So when the road board suggested certain Note how the Commissioner put the answer alterationis for approval to the Minister, you into the witness's mouth. contemporaneously added a further suggestion, Sir Walter Janmes: Might we not read that namely, that hotels should be specified as being letter. posslible ini shopping areas?-That is right. The Commissioner: Yes, it is on pages 64 You did that after you had learned that tile licensing court had granted a provisional and 65. license for a site next door to the picture show! Mr. Hughes: The material point is that, had -No, not that the court had granted it, but that regulation that was proposed to be promul- might be called upon to grant it. The petitions gated in July, 1934, been approved, they could only were in circulation at that time. forthwith have constructed that hotel, but they could not do so, and therefore it took a regu- The first time any regulation was promul- lation which was published on the 5th March gated to allow of the construction of this to do it. hotel, was after the petitions were being That is the real gist of it. Had the reguila- circulated. tion been approved iii July, 1934, they could The Commissioner: On what is the license have constructed the hotel immediately they based, the requirements of the people in and got through the area? the license, but they could not do so,' Sir Walter James: Yes, anid other things. and therefore it took a regulation, which By Mr. Hughes: Was it necessary onl the was published on the 5th March, to do it. 10th July, 1934, to promulgate fresh reguila- Sir Walter James: We do not admit that. tions to allow a hotel or a theatre to be built By the Commisioner: On what date was the in that area 1 There were objections from recommendation approved?-The 5th March, various residents?-No one objected to a hotel. 1935. It is the same thing, only it was ap- Did they object to a picture show?-Yes. proved by a different Minister on a different Onl thle 10th July, 1934, the road board made date. a recommendation, and you added something Mr. Keel]: It includes offices, banks, hotels, to it?'-The road board resolved to amplify theatre, hiail, club or place of amusement. and amend their scheme. It was the road The Commissioner: Then the Minister says board's scheme primarily; it did not come in his minute, ''My recommendation will he from the Minister, and could not come from the found on page 65."2 Town Planning Board. We then published the proposal in the Press and in the ''Government The witness: In other words, the Minister Gaaetto'' for thtree weeks, and invited objec- for Works, on the recommendation of the Town tions. That nimiute is a vital one. Following Planning Board, and at the request of the road the appearance of those proposals in the Press, board., approved of the amplification of the we received no objections except to a picture scheme that the Minister for Lands found him- show, which was the same picture show that self unable to approve of. had already been objected to. The Town Plan- Byv the Commissioner: The date of the min- ning Board then visited oil the metropolitan ute which you received from the Minister for picture shows of a similar type, and by inquiry Works wa, the 5th Marfech, 1935. In that com- established that there was no objection or conm- munication he referred to the fact that he had plaint on the score of a picture theatre being signed an approval or recommendation. The a nuisance. When we had completed our in- recommendation was in Jruly, and the approval quiry we recommended the Minister for Lands was given on the 5th March, l935?-Yes. to approve of tile amplification, which would The recommendation to which assent was have meant reversing his previous decision. given is to he found on pages 64 and 65 of the By the Commissioner: On what date did he correspondencee!-Yes. give his previmiq decision ?-On the 31st May, [7 DECEMBER, 1937.] 22343

1934, the Minister served notice on the Ned- authorised either provisional or final?-N 1 I lands Road Board calling upon that body to think petitions were being circulated. pull down the building. Were the hotels to be in the shopping areal That was the genesis of the 10th July alter- Was not one hotel on the opposite aide of the ation I-The road board authorities were then street.'-That was within the shopping area. trying to force the Minister to agree to their That hotel wais covered by the area mentioned wish, but the Town Planning Board intervened here f-Yes. The Towsn Planning Board would to hold an inquiry. not manke any distinctions; it would deal with One immber of the Town Planning Board dach ease on its merits. always supporting the road board authority?- So that it did not matter which was ranted? The whole of the Town Planning Board. -No. By Mr. Hughes: Mr. Troy refused in July, You say that you made inquiries about 1934, to promulgate the necessary regulations' Whether a hatel license had been granted?- Yes, sometime after that. -He did not refuse; he ignored the road board By the Commissioner: Will you not have resolution, and took no notice of our recomn- the date on your file!-Yes, the 28th August, mnendation on the file. 1934, the Minister f or Lands in company with By the Commissioner: Is there no minute on his Town Planning Commissioner, visited the that recommendation of the 10th July f-No, site of the picture show and hotel, as I stated the Minister for Lands took no notice of it, as earlier. The Minister -was concerned in his he had a perfect right to do. mind about remtoving the conflict between the Is there any evidence that the communication local people and the road board, and the road of the 10th July went before the Miniter?-I board and himself. He then instructed me to handed it to him personally. 'Mr. Tray took remove those two things between Florenee- no action, and so there is no minute. street and Stanley-street and put them on the But you told me he put his initials on the other side of the road, and allow that land to document touching the matter of the two be used for shops and for shops ane. hotels?-That was a three-sheet statement Do you mean to say that the Minister said, which was an independent mnatter. Move those into the shopping aral when Still, he put his initials on it, and you told they were already in the shopping area 7-Tihat mie that it was to record that hie had seen it? was the Crown Solicitor's opinion upon which -I do not know what his motive was. the 'Minister relied, and it was that the picture I do not know whether a Minister does or show was not in the shopping area, and there- does not initial everything he sees 7-That is fore could not go there. Then the Minister a matter of personal practice. He might in. said he would approve of the amplification, itinil one thing and might hold the file. He was anxious to meet the road board, and There are no initials, hut you persomndly at the same time he did not want to break his handed the doctiment to him?-Ycs, there can promise to the residents. He was trying to do the Solomon act. be no question about that. It had been held by the Minister properly By 'Mr. Hughes: Is there any difference be- or improperly, that the picture show could not tween the regulations promulgated on the 51t1 go into the shopping area. That was the rul- March, 1935, and the proposals put forward ing of the Crown Law Department, but if you on the 10th July, 19347-Therc is no difference transferred it -to the other side of the road between the board's recommendations to the without any alteration in the scheme you would Minister for Lands in July, and tire approval be met by the same difieulty I-The Mfinister of the Minister for Works in March of the fol- told mc to put his proposal in writing and lowing year. take it personally to the rad board and ex- After you made that recommendation to 3Mr. plain his viewpoints. Tray he did not give you any instructions at That is to say that be gave a ruling as to all 7-Nothiag whatsoever. one side of the road and not to the other-7 Did the matter of the July recommendation (No. answer.) come before Mr. Troy agnin?-Only when the The next question is No. 5524. board wrote to Mr. Troy and asked him for a rulling whether the proposed hotel, for which The Premier: How much more are you plans were before the board, would be an in- going to rea-d? fringement of the scheme, having in mind the Mr. HUGHES: I am going to read the previous advice of the Crown Law Department evidence. I have no doubt the Premier bus and the ruling of the Minister. The Minister irad it all before. This is what took place, refused to be drawn, on the advice of the according to the evidence. In May, 1934, the Crown Solicitor and the Town Planning Board. By the Commissioner: On the round that Minister had propounded a scheme which his jurisdiction arose far the first time when it did not allow of a picture show or any other was necessary to say to these people "Put the business like a hotel going in to that area. matter right"?L-Yaa. Shortly afterwards, the then Minister for Mr. Hughes: After the 10th July did you Works, 'Mr. 'MeCalium, approached Senator ask the 'Minister for any further instruction Johnston and asked him, if he could get a regarding this recommenatioul-N o, I could not do so- The matter was out of my hands. hotel license far a block of land there, would t he (Senator Johnston) fiad the money with You did no : ask for further instructions - At the 10th July, 1934, there were no hotels which to build the hotel. The conditions 2344 2344[ASSEMBLY.]

were that the £50 deposit which Mr. McCal- Mr. HUGHES: At all events, the file was lun had paid on the block was to be re- lost to the 'Minister for Lands and to the funded to him, and, if the license failed, he Town Planning Commissioner. was to find a certain portion of the other The Minister for Lands: No, it was moneys. There had previously been a peti- amongst other files. tion circulated on behalf of another appli- Mr. HUGHES: The Minister was not able cant. An agreement was entered into be- to tell the Royal Commissioner where it was, tween the Minister for Works and Senator but now he does know where it was. Johnston on behalf of Senator Johnston 's The MNinister for Lands: There are hun- wife, that there should be refunded to M.%r.dreds of files the whereabouts of which I do McCallum the £50 that he had paid on the not know. block of lend, that they should put up a Mr. HUGHES: He knows now where the dummny to apply for the license, and that if file was, Why did you not tell the Royal the license were granted Mr. McCallum Commissioner where it was when he asked would be half-owner of the hotel subject to you?1 an encumbrance made up of the money to Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The lion. moem- be advanced by Senator Johnston. Strange- her must address the Chair. ly enough, we come to the first coinceidence. Mr. HUGHES: I think all three of us A set of regulations was promulgated from knew that it was in the possession of the the Town Planning Commissioner's office, Deputy Premier, Mr. McCallu. After which made provision for an alteration to August, 1934, the file was mislaid, and no- cover hotels. On the 10th July, 1934, these thing more was heard about this business fo-r regulations were presented to the Minister the time being. Here wre have poor unfor- in charge of Town Planning-the Minister tunate Senator Johnston, who has spent a for Lands--for his approval, hut the Minis- lifetime supplying the people of this ter did not approve of them. The petition State with food and refreshment, held proceeded and in due course, towards the up with his hotel at Nedlands. He end of August, the application of Mr. could not go on with it because the MeCallum and Senator Johnston was suc- regulations prevented it. he was not cessful over that of the other applicant. going to risk putting up a hotel and That is coincidence 'No. 2. Mr. -MeCallmni having the Minister for Lands orderting him was not called upon to pay anything, as he to knock it down again. He has miade too would have had to do if the license had much money to be silly enough to do that. failed. That was in August, 1934. Again Senator Johnston, therefore, was unable to the file was sent to the Minister for Lands do anything for the remaining part of 1934. so that he might approve of the regulations On the 3~rd or 4th January, 1935, a mining- that would permit of the erection of this strike occurred. 'Members representing hotel. The Minister, however, sat on the mining constituencies had to go through file and did nothing about it. Approximately their districts a good deal. The Minister on the 1st August the then Premier, Hon. for Lands represents a mining constituency wvent to New Zealand on a health P. Collier, that was in the throes of the strike. While trip and Mr. licCallumn became Acting Pre- he was away in the mining areas in con- mier. Soon after that the town planning nection with the strike, on the 20th Februt- file dealing with this matter was lost. The ary, 1935, a Cabinet meeting was held at Minister for Lands swore on oath that he which he was not present. Between did not have the file during that period, that the he did not know where it n-as. The Town 2-nd and the 20th February, 1933, the mein- Planningm Commnis.-ioner also swore that he her for Boulder (Hon. P. Collier), who was did not have the file and did not know where then Premier, had returned to the State, it was,. Some time after August, 1934, and and it had been decided that Mr. 'McCallnm up to the 5th March, 1935, the town plan- was to retire from public life and take a ning file dealing with this question was lost. position as Chairman of the Agrieulttiral Neithr the Mlinister for Lands nor the Town Bank Commissioners. On the 20th Feb)ru- Planning Commissioner knew where it was. ary, when M-%r.McCallum had his position with the Agricultural Bank already ar- The Minister for Lands: That is not to ran-ed and when he was shortly to Wt'ire say it was lost. It -was in the department. from public life, at the Cabinet meetin.-. ait Ron. C. G1. Lath am: It was like Paddy's which the M1inister for Lands was not lpre- sovereign when it dropped overboard. sent, a minute was pasc;ed transferrinq the [7 DECEMBER, 1937.] 242345 administration of the Town Planning De- M1L. SPEAKER: Order! partre~nt from the 'Minister for Lands Mr. HUGHES: Then, on the 5th M1arch, (Hon. 11. F. Troy), to the Minister for 1935, Davidson received an intimation from Works (Hon. A. 'McCallum). Mr. McCallum that the Town Planning De- The 'Ainister for Lands: There is no evi- partment had previously been transferred dence 01 that at all. fronm 'Mr. Troy to M.%r.McCallum on the 20th Ifr. HUGHES: Yes. February, and he received instructions to The M1nister for Lands: -No, there is not. insert a notice in the "Government Gazette" Mr. H17GHES: Davidson says that. transferring the portfolio. He also received The Minister for Lands: Where? instrutct ions to insert a notice in the IMr. HUGHES: In his evidence. In his 'Gazette" promulgating the regulations that evidence, the Minister for Lands himself allowed the hotel~ to be built in that area. said he was not present at the Cabinet On the 5th 'March, 1935, the missing file meeting. tu~rned up again from, 'Mr. MfeCallum's pos- The Minister for Lands: There were session. M1r. Davidson had the file again many Cabinet meetings. after three or four manths. Whein the file Mr. HUGHES: If the M1inister for Lands turned up, instructions were given to David- looks at Davidson's evidence, he will see son to publish the notice in the "Gazette" re- that 3fr. McCallumn drew his attention to garding the change of Ministers, and the Minute 2510, passed at a Cabinet mneeting- on promulgations of regulations that allowed the 20th February, 1935. the hotel to be constructed. That was on The Premier: That was at an Executive the 5th March, 1935, which was aLfew days Council meeting. before Mr. INeCalnin w-as to retire from The Minister for Lands: Not at a Cabi- pu'blic life. A few days- later, the Minister -net meeting. for Lands, (Mr. Troy) returned to Perth, Mr. HUGHES: In, the course of the in- and at the railway station was met by a qutiry, the Minister for Lands was asked if "W~est Australian" reporter, Mr. Richards, be was present, and hie replied, "No, I who informed the M1inister that he had lost wras away in the Jmining country in con- the Town Planning portfolio. nection with the strike.'" Hona. C. G. Lathami: IS th~at how the Mm(i- The Minister for Lands: That is all right. ister got to know of iti MAr. HUGHES: it mayv have -been done at Mr. HUGHES: In the sworn testimony, 'he Executive Council meeting, but the Mlin- it is stated that M.%r.Richards said be had isiter will notice the interjietion by Sir lost the Town Planning portfolio. Walter James, who said, "But it had Cabi- The 'Minister for Lands: There is no Town tiet approval." After all, Sir Walter James Planning portfolio. was the solicitor for members of the Gov- Mr. HUGHES: I suppose Mr. Richards ernment, who were instructing him. There- thoughit the Minister should be informed of fore, on the 20th February-I do not care that. On his own sworn testimony, the whether it was, done in the bar of the Ned Minister got his first intimation from a lands Hotel or anywhere else-we find that, "West Australian" reporter. Possibly he was behind Mr. Troy's hack, when he was away down] there to get instructions as to how hie in the mining country, a resolution -was was to act. At any rate, the Minister was vassed transferring the Town Planning De- so incensed at the change, that he rushed to partment from Mrv. Troy to Mr. McCallumi. the Premier and tendered his resignation. The Minister for Lands: What evidence That is the Minister'si own sworn evidence, of that is there? not. what I say. Mr. HUGHES: This is the first time that Hon. P. Collier: No. the sworn testimony of Mr. Davidson has Mr. HUGHES: Yes, that is his sworn been challenged. testimony. I will turn the evidence The Minister for Lands: No. up for the bon. member. Is that not right ? The Premier: So the hon. member says. Hon. P. Collier: Not quite. Mr. HUGHES: The Premier heard the sworn evidence; he was there. However, The Minister for Lands: I will give you nothing took place for a few days. the facts later on. The Minister for Lands: I will he able t o Mr. HUGHES: I will give the Minister tell you all the fact,. what he said on oath. [ASSEMBLY.]

The Minister for Lands: I will give you say that the Premier soothed his feelingb by the facts. telling him that he had previously asked to Mr. HUGHES: I1f the Minister tells us be relieved of that Otepartment. I car quite now that it was not so, then that is all right. imagine the member for Boulder (H1on. P. The Minister for Lands: Where did I say Collier) saying in his most diplomnatic style, that I rushed to the Premier's Office? "Why, you asked me!1" We are asked to Hon. C. G. Latham: You could not get believe-Mr. Hart, of course, believed it, round fast enough. but I do not know that there is anyone else Mr. HUGHES: Let us see how very in Queensland who would have believed it- annoyed was the Minister. Let us see what that so incensed was the Mfinister f or Lands he did say in his evidence. The report of that he quite forgot his own request to ha the evidence shows that in the examination relieved of the department. He tells us that of the Minister for Lands by the Commis- after he had seen Mr. Collier, he real- sioner there was the following:- ised that he had told his colleague 5775. And the first you knew that the previously that lie would like to be transfer was an accomplished fact was when relieved of this department. I do not you saw the "Gazette"!-Yca. It was shown know if theme is one, even the most rabid to me by Mdr. Richard;, a reporter on the " West supporter of the Government, who would be- Australian."I lieve a story like that. That is one of those So there is the Minister's own sworn state- stories that if, one had the temerity to ad- ment. Then the evidence continues '- vance it in the criminal court, the Chief 5787. That was your own definite ruling?- Justice would say, "You don't expect me to That was my own, but the Crown Law De- believe a cock and bull story like that!" The partment felt that I was too particular about Minister for Lands had asked to be relieved it, that I was giving myself unnecesary trouble. of the department, and when he was relieved 5788. The Commissioner: Too conscientious. of it, he wvas so incensed that he was going 5789. By Mr. Hughes: Too obstinate?- to resign, but then suddenly remembered he Probably. had asked to be relieved of that department. 5790. When you saw M1r. Colle;, did you ex- I do not think the Minister would expect plain to him all about the controversy that had been raging I--No. When Mr. Richards anyone to believe that story-except, of showed me the ''IGazette" I was very annoyed. course, Mr. Hart for one thousand guineasl It -was on a Friday, I think, the day on which So the Minister for Lands did not do any- the "Gazette"I comes out, and on the Satur- thing further. About six days later Mr. Me- day or the Monday I anxw Mr. Coller and told Callum retired from public life and took up him that I proposed to resign since he had his position as Chairman of the Commis- removed the administration of this branch from sioners of the Agricultural Bank, and mrs. Johnston proceeded with the building of the The Minister for Lands: But you said I hotel. When the Royal Commission sat, rushed round to the Premier. Sir Walter James, as counsel for these Mr. HUGHES: Yes, and told the Pre- people, knew the truth, because if Sir maier that you were going to resign. Walter James, who had acted right through Hon. C. G. Latham: It would have saved for Nfr. Mecalumn and is still acting for his us a lot of trouble if he had resigned. estate, did not know the truth of the matter 1Mr. HUIGHES: Of course, Mr. Speaker, at the time he was appearing for them, and there is one inference only to be drawn from conspired to subtorn sworn testimony before that resignation. A Minister does not fly the Commission, there was only one honour- off the handle and threaten to resign because able course open to him as a legal practi- a small department is taken away from him- tioner of the Supreme Court of Western The only inference to be drawn from such Australia who was engaged to assist Mr. a resignation is that the Mitnister knew what McCallum and to appear before the arbitra- was going on and was determined to prevent tors to fight for 31r. McCallum's estate to it, but had been forestalled. He was so an- secure their share in this transaction. If he noyed that he was going to resign. The in- had not known previously, and that was the ference there is that he knew all the time first time it had come to his knowledge, that all was not well with regard to the hotel there was only one course open to him. and position. Would the Mfinister resign be- thiat Was to say, "I cannot take this brief cause a small department was taken away because I1 have appeared before a public from his jurisdiction Then he went anl to tribunal and argued that this was not true.!' [7 Dzanna, 1937.] 2W34

Hon. P. Collier: Do you say Sir Walter M1r. SPEAKER: The bon. member will James conspired? keep order! Mr. HUGHES: Yes, he was the worst Mr. HUGHES: And when lie did so he man of the whole lot. was briefed by the member for Boulder and Hon. P. Collier: Then that is quite in his colleagues. Let us get that also into order. "ilansard." Sir Walter James appeared for Mr. HUGHES: I cannot understand the a Minister ot the Crown, the Hon. P. member for Boulder and his colleagues Collier. briefing the Chairman of the National Party H1on. P. Collier: Hlis character will stand to defend him. well against yours. Hon. P. Collier: And you say Sir Walter Mr. HUGHES: So you see, having com- James is a man who would conspiret pleted the transaction, and the Minister of Mr. HUGHES: He would, and he would the Crown having promulgated regulations have done the decent thing, if he did not that gave hiiscif the hotel, he went out from know the truth direct, by dropping the brief. public life. If it had not been for the legal Hon. P. Collier: He has not reached the proceedings between his estate and Mrs stage you have reached in law. Johnston over a share in the hotel, this The Minister for Lands:- Or -will reach. would never have come to light. Nohtwith- MVr. HUGHES: According to your junior standing the member for Boulder and Sir colleague, I am the most highly paid mem- Walter James, I have no doubt that the ber of this Parliament. Previously he said public of Westen Australia, if the Govern- that the member for Nedlands (Hon. N. ment like to have an impartial inquiry, 'will Keenan) earned four times as much as any find out that what I say about Nx. McCallum Minister, so I must be earning at least Z6,00 claiming an interest in this hotel is abso- a year. lutely true. Hon. P. Collier: It is as well to have on M1r. Styants: 'MeCalluni is not here to record that you say Sir Walter James is defend himself. capable of conspiring. M1r. HUGHRES: BLut I am here to defend Mr. HUGHES: Not only capable, but did myself. SO- lion. P. Collier: That is what you say. Xr. SPEAKER: Order! If there is not Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mnem- better order kept under the gallery I shall her will address the Chair. he compelled to clear it. Hon. P. Collier: We will have that on Mr. HUGHES: When the late Mr. Me- record, that Sir Walter conspired. Ca Hum passed on, the kindly thing, the best Mr. HUGHES; Yes, he conspired to thing to have done was to let this pass into suborn testimony of witnesses before the the limbo of forgotten things. But there Royal Commissioner regarding that which are other people alive; I am alive. And he knew to be untrue. when a member of the Government, knowing Hon. P. Collier: And that is Sir Walter full well that this disclosure had been wade, James. comes into the Hfouse, and accuses mne of be- Mr. HUGHES: He is the gentleman. ing a liar, a cheat and a thief, knowing well Eon. P. Collier: Very welll that the lying, the cheating and the thieving Mr. HUGHES: He is the gentleman who were on the other side, I do not think the appeared for the member for Boulder and rave should stand between mae and a just his colleagues. vindication. 3Mr. Collier was in the witness Mr, SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem- box and, according to the report of the evi- ber cannot reflect upon members of this dence, he was asked, "Are you interested in House, whatever he may say about Sir any hotel-?" He said he declined to answer Walter James- that question. Hfere we were having an in- Air. 'HUGHES: If Sir Walter James did quiry for the pur-pose of ascertaining not know at the time he bad that brief that whether 'Ministers of the Crown were using it was false, when he was engaged to appear their influence with the Licensing Board, at the recent arbitration the only course and the very people who had possession of open to him was to refuse the brief because the testimony were put on oath and they re- he had previously acted ona the other side. fused to answer. And the Commissioner Hon. P. Collier: But he cofl5Dired. Let upheld the refusal. Then when Mr. Collier us get that well into "Hansard." was asked, "Are you in partnership with 2348 234SASSEMBLY.]

Senator Johnston in hotels',"' he again de- Parliamentary lif e of this State as I do, clined to answer and again he was upheld by be would see some strange political re- the Coznini~sioner. Personally I think 111T. al ignmnents. Senator Johnston was in part- Collier would have given a much better nership with the then Deputy Prouder. WVe answer from his own point of view if he had do not know whether he was in partner- sail, "Yes, I am," for everybody believed ship with the Premier, but the Premier tha- lie did not answer because he was in would not deny it on oath, so the inference partnei ship. He has left himself in the is that he was. In 1917 the member for awkward position that everybody thinks his Boulder was a member of the Scaddan refusal to answer was because he could not Labour Government. On a no-confidence deny on oath that hie was associated with motion moved by the late Mr. Frank \Yil- Senator Johnston. He has himself to blanie .son, then Leader of the Opposition, tour for that inference. So it inight be said that supl'orters of the Labour Party, including the Licensing Board was not influence 1 in I-. BS.Johnston, then member for N'arrogin anly way, and the Commissioner from Queens- c:rossed the floor and turned out the (iuv- hind was very specific :----.'No circumstan- emnient. Mr. Wilson took over the reins tial evidence at thisi inquiry. N'on must have of office as Premier and appointed MNr. your direct evidence." Of course that is ridi- Johnston as Speaker. Senator Johnston, culous, because if people could be convicted as lie now is, held an inglorious reign of only on direct evidence 90 per cent, of the 14 days as Speaker. During that term the offenders would escape and go free. C'ir H-ouse was in a state of disorder. Mr. eninatantial evidence very often is more eou- Johnston was accused by M.1r. Collier and vincing thai, is direct evidence. Here wa his colleaguIes of having given his vote to have the Licensig Board, carefully hand- turn 0111 the Scaddan Labour Government picked-not open to; all sections of the com- in consideration of getting the Spealcar- munity but picked from the anointed inner ship. And the late ',%r. Thomas Walker circle of the Labour movement, from amongst moved a motion that Mr. Johnston was those holding high positions in the Labour not a fit and proper person to occupy the movement. Unf ortunately those men have Speaker'~s Chair. On the 28th March, after only a three years appointment; they rian a series; of sittings in -which the House was be appointed only for three years, and the-y in pandemionium and accusations were made ant; ii a terrible position when it .nines to against Mr. Johnston- granting licenses in which Cabinet 'Mintiters The Minister for Lands: All this is cir- we interested; because if they do not grant cumastantial evidence. the license they wvill probably finish their Mr, HUGHES: No, it is all from "Hutn- job at the cud of three years. That is a big sard" of the 1917 volume. On the 28th test to put on any man. There is one irresis- Mfarch the disaster culmninated. Mr. John- tile inference to be drawn from the hotel ston had ordered one of the members of at Nedlands. That inference is that thle Assembly, M1r. Holman, to leave the aMinister of the Crown did not con- House. This wras what the "West Austra- tribute a penny to the capital of the lian'' reported- hotel. Yet he was to get a half share in Mr. Collier, 'Mr. Walker, Mr. 'Mullany, 'Mr. that hotel. What for? What was his con- Lainbert, and others clustered around Mr. NeI- sideration for a hal share in that hotel? mian in a protective attitude. The only consideration he could give was And Mr. Lambert took it upon himiself to his influence with the Licensing Board. That lock that door (indiea~tedl so that Mfr. is the only possible consideration he could Johnston could not have Mr. Holman grive for his half share of the hotel. Wvhy ejected. would Senator Johnston give away aL haf Hon. P. Collier: In which year was that? share estimated at the value of £10,000 for Mr. WfUGHES: In 1917, when the mem- nothing? Why should Senator Johnston her for Boulder was more youthful And give away that to his hated enemies? The mnore boisterous than hie was later, with member for Northam the other night talked his matured and diplomatic touch. about strange alliances and about my acsso- Hon. P. Collier: Before I knew you and ciation -with the Leader of the Opposition. recommended you for East Perth. He ought to look to the future by looking '-%f.HIVGHES;: You did not recommend barkirds. If he knew as inuch about t! tile for East Perth. You camne to me and [7 Ducuxas, 1937.]231 234.9 took mec out of a good job in the Public because he was in partnership through his Service because you could not find anyone wife with a Minister of the Crown. That is else who could win that seat. why he was first home, The inference is Hon. P. Collier: No, you asked me. irresistible. Notwithstandingr the fact that .Mr. SPEAKER: Order! This has no- one unfortunate man is not with us, he had thing to do with the motion. the opportunity to give evidence hefore the MAr. HU01HES: So the member for Nor- Royal Commission. As a member of the tham need not get alarmed at political Government he knew what was going on, and alliances, because in 1917 they said that that what had taken place had been con- M)r. Johnston wsas not to occupy the Chair, doned. A man was brought from the Eastern yet 20 years later they are his partners in States to inquire into the charges, but he a hotel racket. One never knows what saw to it that the evidence to prove the will happen in this political game and one charges was not admitted. When any Gov- requires to be careful about talking of ernment is prepared to go to that length to alliances. The future might see the mem- cover up the transactions of its Ministers, ber for Northam and me in alliance as that may be considered loyalty. No loyalty, manufacturers of vanity boxes, and M.rs. however, should have demanded from the Cardell-Oliver and 2%r. Millington in part- Government the suppression of true facts from the Royal Commission. The Govern- nership as starting price bookmakers, with ment MVr. Raphbael and '%r. Tatbamn in somec otlier is guilty of condoning the charges and of using its position to brand someone line of partnership. guilty else'who Hon. C. G. Latham: No f ear, von Won't. is telling the truth as an untruthful person. Mfinisters wvent to great lengths Mr. HUGHES: T am not the only mnem- to make out that I was telling untruths, and ber of the House that has protested about on top of that they have the audacity the Licensing Board. The member for t o s ay that I amn a liar, a cheat and M~urchison1 on several occasions has moved a thief I hurl back the epithet in their for an inquiry into the affairs of the board teeth, and as far as the Captain Stirling -and it cannot be said that he has any hotel is concerned the allegation is automati- prejudice against the Government. Within cally answered. On the facts that I have the last month the member for Victoria submitted, if there are liars, cheats or Park in this House moved to delete the thieves, they are over there on the Govern- whole of the salaries of the Licensingt int benches from which the accusation was Board. made against rue. Holding- that view, I de- Hon. C. 0. Letham: Why did he not go clare that the Government is no longer fit on with it to occupy the Treasury benc~hes. I do not Air. HUOB(TES: I think he dlid press it condemin all the members on the other :-irle to a division. So I sin not the only one of the House, because I know very well that questioning the Licensing- Board. Tf T a lot of those members did not know what were to go through the other charges I made was going. on and would not believe it wheni one by one, I could show where the Royal they wvere told. They did not believe it wv Commissioner rejected evidence that would Possible. have proved what I said. I can show this The Premier: Is it only when you occupy House that he would not allow questions the Treasury benches that you become dlis- to be asked and would not permit evidence honourable?' to be called. But of course that would have M1r. HUGHES: -No, when you know that been a waste of time because, as I have something is going on, instead of being already said, I am satisfied that, as far ais decent about it you twc your position to the decision was concerned, I could defend cover it up, and to brand someone as un- my attitude anywhere. But that is the posi- truthful when you know that that person is tion. With regard to the Captain Stirling telling the truth. That is the dishonourable hotel and the hotel at Inglewood I should part of it, and then you have the audavity like to have an investigation to show who to come in and pursue that man, not having is the holding trustee, at any rate in respect the decency to let the matter die in peace. of the Inglewood hotel. Regarding that T am sorry, M1r. Speaker, that I have taken hotel and the Captain Stirling hotel Senator up such a long time. I had quite a number Johnqton was the last in on both occasions of other matters to reply to, hut I suppose and the first borne. He was the first home I will get another opportunity. I have dealt 2350 2350ASSEMBLY.] with the questions to which I have referred, that was altered. Before wre came into firstly because they were matters of public power the tax was 41/2d. in the pound interest, and secondly because of the ad. on everybody. The present Government, ministrative conduct of the Government as however, shifted the burden on the people disclosed by the Captain Stirling hotel trans- better able to pay it, and removed it froma cation. I say that if the House wishes to those who were on sustenance. The tax was preserve one atom of public dignity or public increased to 9d. in the pound, and last ses- respect, or preserve one vestige of honour, sion, so that the burden should fall on the it can no longer allow the present Govern- right shoulders, the Government increased ment to remain in charge of the affairs of the tax to Is. in the pound on those whto the State. were well able to carry the additional load. I admit candidly that when the previous Gov- THE PREMIER (Hon. J. C. Wilicock- ernment occupied the Treasury bench I1 Geraldton) [9.63: I do not propose to say moved that this amount of money that was very much regarding what the member for to be raised by the -emergency tax should East Perth has taken so long to say. He be used Xor employment purposes, because has said the same things in this House pre- at that stage there were between 8,000 anld viously and he has spoken of matters that 10,000 on sustenance, and it was our desire have no relevancy to the question whether to do something in the direction of provid- the Government does or does not possess ing employment for those people. The -posi- the confidence of the House. Apparently tion then was entirely different from what it the member for East Perth arranged for a is to-day. We have now only 500 people oi: gallery to be here at 7.30, and because the sustenance as against 10,000 at that time. gallery could Dot get here at the time the The conditions to-day are immeasurably im- motion was first called on, he proceeded to p roved. They have improved vastly since waste the time of the House for anl hour and the present Government came into power. a half. In presenting the motion he at- In fact, I think we can successfully claim tached a dragnmet sentence to it, "And for that the condition of the people both on other reasons the Government no longer sustenance and on relief work is infinitely possesses the confidence of the House." That better in Western Australia than it is in is just his usual style and it was his attitude any other part of Australia, and that the before the Royal Commission of inquiry to burden of taxation, instead of being kept which he has referred. Be made all sorts onl the people on a low scale of remunera- of allegations but never brought any evidence tion, has been taken off them and by three forward to support his charges, anid because steps successfully placed on those better able he missed on -that occasion he adopts simi- to pay. I can hardly be astonished at any- lar tactics to-night. His attitude is that thing the member for East Perth would do, possibly something wvill come out in the hut I am surprised that he should accuse course of the debate, possibly someone may Sir Walter James, Mr. Keall, Mr. Wolff and say something which might be construed in the Royal Commissioner, Mr. Hart, of hav- the unscrupulous way usually adopted by ing conspired. Has anything more ludicrous him to piece together remarks from which ever been heard? Canl we imagine that those he would draw conclusions. He has spoken four gentlemen, holding the reputation that about what the Government should do in re- they do, ad who had never previously been spect to legislation. The Government is associated, should get together and conspire quite competent to do its own business in to do something,? It is too ridiculous. Sir its own way, and will continue to carry on Walter James, who has rendered life-long the affairs of the State in the way it thinks service to this State, is held in the highest best. We do not want, nor do we desire, to respect by everybody. 'Mr. Keall likewise have any hints or instructions or suggestions has had a long and honourable career in from the member for East Perth. He spoke Western Australia. 11r. Wolff is a eom- about taxation that had been levied from paratively young man, and no one can ever the poorer section of the community. Be- say anythingo detrimental to his character or fore the present Government came inab his honour. 'Mr, Hart, the Royal Commis- powver, however, every section of the sioner7 I do not suppose was known to any community paid emergency taxation, but of the other gentlemen before he came to -1, soon1 as the Government took office Western Au~ralia. Mr. Hart has had an [7 DCEMBER, 1937.] honourable public career in Queensland. The indeed be astonished. But in this instance Gover-nment did not set out to get Mr. Hart. I anm more than surprised-I am astounded An attempt was made to secure the services -that ha should be so despicable as to fol- of a judge in any one of the Eastern Stated. low an bonourable man beyond the grave for First of all we approached the Common- the purpose of besmirching his character, -wealth Government. merely ini order to gain a political advantage. Mr. Hughes: A High Court judge would That seems the last word in infamy. Gen- have permitted the evidence to he admitted erally when people die and go beyond the that M1r. Hart refused to accept. grave there is a feeling of sympathy with The PREMIER: The Government wa. the relatives who are left behind, and the unable to secure the services of a High Court dead past is left to bury its dead. While judge anl then i turn tppealed to the Gor- the hon. member excuses himself for doing ernmenth of New South WVales, Victoria, that, the fact remains that he has done it. South Australia, Tasmania and Queensland. If there is anything which must cause a for the services of a judge. It was fouact feeling of abhorrence in the minds of respectable, decent citizens, it is to think impoessible to obtain the services of a judge, and we were recpmimended to appoint Mr. that in order to gain a political advantage Hart from Queensland. Now it is seriously the member for East Perth is Prepared to suggested by the hon. miember-no, I mean, besmirch the character of one who is dead the ni'nber for East Pefth-that the Gov- and whose memory is held in esteem by erinuent knew what sort of a man Mr. Hart everyone in the State. was, that we knew that hie wvas susceptible Hon. C. G. Latham: The Minister for Employment the other night attacked the to eonspiracy, and that we could get three member for East Perth. of the most honourable members of the legal l-roftssion in We~stern Australia to join the The PREIER: The member for East Royal Commissioner in a conspiracy. What Perth might take on a live Minister, someone an astounding iessrtiou to make! Would alive and able to defend himself. But the anyone in the wide world who had not the member for East Perth besmirches the char- acter of oae-well, I will not drawv fertile iniaginalion of the member for East a com- parison between the character of the member Petth ever drea n of making such an asser- for East Perth and that of the late Mr. tion? That a man could be brought from McCallumn, because the contrast is too great. 5,000 miles away-I do not know whether hie Then, again, there is; the thought of a woman knew any of the other gentlemen here-and who lies lost her~ husband, the most tragic after an honourable career of 30 or 40 years happening that can occur to a woman. She at the Queensland Bar be induced to enter is to be distressed by happenings in this into a conspiracy with honourable member- House besmirching the character of one who of the Western Australian Bar! It is abso- is gone. If that is the kind of tactics neces- lutely absurd and ridiculous. Yet in all sary to prove that the Government does not seriousness the member for East Perth possess the confidence of the House, we had alleges that. Re tells the House that that better shut up Parliament altogether. For was so, on the assumption of a conspiracy myself and the Government I have no comi- among hononrablo uten. I do not know what plaint whatever to make. This action of the can be d]one to answer arguments of that member for East Perth is only typical of kind. f do not know whether on a question the actions. taken by him ever since he first of the confidence of the House in the Govern- entered this Chamber. His present action ment we should prcsuijipose that such a thing- is similar to actions that he took 12 or 13 could lie done, and would be done if it could years ago, just after a licensing court had be done. The member for East Perth built been established-with a different personnel. up a spc0(h with evidence read from the re- I had to take him to task in this House then port of the Royal Commission. I am as- for dishonourable conduct. I then detailed tonished at his speech. I know that I should to hon. members for half an Four the many not be astonished at anything the member things for which the member had been re- for East Perth does. The only thing I should sponsible and of which no honourable. man be astonished at would be his doing or say- would be proud. I detailed the circum- ing anything creditable to or about anybody. stances under -which lie came to my house Inever knew him to do such a thing as that. and stood on my verandah and led com- If by chancee d(id %lip in that way. I would pantions of his to threaten my life because 2352 [ASSEMBLY.]

I as a Minister would not (10 something he out that the member never agrees with any- wanted me to do. The newer members of body. His whole life, right back to the tinit, the House do not remember these things. wvhen he was a kiddy almost, when he was However, they wvill fid them all recorded playing football, everybody else was bad and in "Hansard" for 1926 from page 367 oin- wvron, and he was the only right person. wards-pages and pages. I do not want to WVhen he got into the Labour movement, he- reiterate these events, which older members wanted to be a Minister af ter he had been in of the House know all about. The member the House about seven or eight months. Be- wade charges about people being liars. I cause he was not given a portfolio lie told the House onl that occasion wihat sort of got raucous and vindictive, and accused character the member was. We all knew him everybody of everything. He implied then in those days just as well as we know him that he was the only person who could 1p30- in these days. Wer knew his type of mind, perly interpret the Labour miovemuent. 1e. and what he does and thinks. In this Cham- alone! Everybody was wrong except bun- ber lie confessed 12 months ago that the self. The only thing- he ever did that I call world is divided into two classes of people agree wvith was oil that occasion wvhen he d~e- -people who agree with him, and people feated a member who had left the Labour who do not agree with him and who are all Party. paranoiacs and mad. That is the lion. mem- lion. C. G. latham: Ile maide a mistake ]ter's psychology and philosophy, le says, that time. "Those people who agree with me are all The PRtEMIElRl: Unfortunately we found right, but anylbody who holds a different that we had hacked the wrong horse, because opinion is a paranoiac and mad and ought the member himself left the Labour Party. not to be listened to." He said that in this lion. C. G. Laitharn : I think you had somte- House only about 12 months ago. That is thing to do with putting- him out of the the mtemabers ty*pe of mind, and he cmes Labour movement. here and asks the House to take serious The PREMIER: No. lie went out of the, notice of thiingis he says and does! One Labour Party because wye were all para- meets some very funny people as one goes nomacs and he could not be associated with through life; it is all part of the experience mad people. So there wvas no place in tie that one goes through to arrive at a proper Labour movement for him. What he was 12 appreciation of the abnormialities whicih may years ago, and what he was; 12 months ago, be floating around the world. The Royal and] what he is now are all the same thing' Commissioner disagreed with him, and the Ile doe,; the same things and says the same Royal Commissioner is a paranoiac. Sir things aill along.i Throughout his life he Walter James is a paranoiac and mad. will run true to form, doing- the same things Hon. P1. Collier: No; dishonest. and saying the, same things,. Unquestion- The PREMIER: Nsot only dishonest, but ably there is a silver bullet waiting for ill[ at COnS1 ,irator. Sir Walter James conspires of uA in political life, but I believe the silver with three or four honourable men. Th~y bullet will reach the member for East Perth aill conspire to do something. The only much sooner than most members of this thing the member could think of in that re- Chamber. I ouly mention the debate of 12 gard is that they must he mad and must be years a go because people thoughit 12 or 18 conspirators because they disagreed with months ago that a new star had risen in the him. political firmamient-a new and brilliant lion. P. Collier: Ile did not say mad, but star. But it wvas the ,ame star as rose 12 d1i.honest. or 15 years ago, a star that proved not to Ite 7Mr. SPEAKER: Order! of erreat magnitude hut a little bit of a The PREMER.: I do not want to take meteorite which disintegrated easily before up much of the time of the House by' read- it fell to earth, and that is what happen,'d ing from "Hansnrd," as the hon. member with reg-ard to the member for East Perth read fromi the Royal Commnission evidence. when lie !rot into the House years ago. I I did teel inclined to quote to hon. members thomzht that perhaps the nwmber milit something- of what I had said concerning the reform, that there was a possibility, thoigh membeir about 12 years ago. It is all on I could hardly imazine it. of his recoverinm' recordl in "Hansard." I will not bother a place in public, opinion. However, the about it. t'xi-e1 ,t to say that on that occa- leopard does, not change its spots. The, -ionx. as well as- on thi ocain: one member i., the sme as he was 12 month, [7 Dsenxans, 1937.] 2353 ago and 12 years ago. But I think he has Hon. P. Collier: They went from my reached a greater depth of infamy on this house to yours on that occasion. occasion in not only' making allegations The PREMIER: But the member for against living people but in resting almost Boulder did not happen to be in. I am the wvhole of his eas~e on besmirching tk approachable to anyone at any time, if ,character of a juan who is dead, and who people have something legitimate to talk hats been dead politically for two and a half about, but I do not think it was legitimate years. That is the way in wvhich the bon. to come and say to me, "If you do not take member bolsters up his case. Everything the police off the wharves, wre will settle lie has said aniounts to a charge of absolute them and then settle you." That is what ,dishonesty' against one whom I say the the member for East Perth heard those whole of the people of Wresterni Australia people say. I do not want to refer to the respected. The lhon. member reminds me matter any further, but it is acts of that somewhat of it crocodile. The crocodile kind that show what type of man he is. is a reptile which will not eat its Hon. P. Collier: It was a threat made food when fresh and wholesome, but to force us to take the police off the wvharves buries it in the nmud until it becomes at Fremantle. absolutely putrid before consuming it. The PREMIER: It was a threat to the That seems to he the type of mind which effect that I should lose my life. But I did the member has. That is the food for not do what wvas wanted. On another occa- thought hie has. Ile caniiot have wholesome sion the member for East Perth libelled me thoughts. He cannot have thoughts in his in a newsplaper. I took no action. I won- mind unless they' are like a crocodile's food, der at my own tolerance and generosity after and have become unfit for use. I do not all thecse years, but I and this Governmet mind if he calls, me a paranoiac, or anything- have reacherd the limit ot our tolerance and else. I do not see what there has been in gIenerost - t respect to anything the meat- the whole speech lie has made. From what her for East Perth does or says in the House I can see from reading the report of the in the future. For anything that lie does Commission, the questions to which lie ire. in the House in the future, no matter what ferred were never asked, nor did he charge it is, he will take full responsibility. Let the late Mr. McCallum with having an inter- him understand that what he says-whether est in hotels. He never asked Mr. MoCal- lie calls it privileged or not-he will have to lum to be called to the Commission to be answer for to this House. If he persists in questioned about this matter. That was not thle dishonourable tactics he has adopted the sulbject of inquiry at all. There was since Ie( has been in the House on this occa- nothing in the charges made concerning the sion, so far a.' we are concerned as a Gov- fact that Mr. McCallum owned an hotel; enimtnt, an 'ything he does or says he will nothing in the charges dealt with that aspect have to take f till responsibility for, and make at all. Yet to-nig-ht we have the member answer to the House. reading pages of evidence, not about that iMr. 11ug-hes: Your threat leaves me cold. all because that was never under matter at The PREMiER: Just the same as yours consideration: it was never the subject of left me voLd years ago, and other threats an inquiry. If the member for East Perth have left ine (old since. There is an adage, had had some idea in his mind that the "The opportunity to do evil things makes wanted to charge facts were as stated, and he evil thing" done," and there is a section of Mr. Mceallum, he had every opportunity to people, from whom I do not exclude the do so. He had the right, wvhich he exer- member for Ea.,t Perth, who are continually cised, to say what he desired to say, but be ,eareliing out opportunities to do evil thing.' said nothing in reg-ard to Mr. McCaluin to other people. They never weant to do owning an hotel, anid he did not see fit to anything right or correct, or anything that have 'Mr. 'MeCallum called to ask him about will he'creditable or honourable. But if the matter. Getting back to the time to there i' an evil thing that an evil mind ean, which I referred when he brought a crowd imagine, it is done. 'Most of the vharges of people to my house and stood by while referred to must have sprung- from the hon. they threatened my life, I said on that occ- mnembers imamination, because wheit asked sion the same ai I say now, "Go for your to brinL, ,(me evidence forward to prom, life; I am not a bit afraid of you." .ORW Or the things he said, he submnitte.l 2354 [ASSEMBLY.]

no evidence. Then when he thought there that he endeavou-s to besmirch the char-ac- was an opportunity to discredit the Govern- ter of a dead man in order to make some ment, the fact that in doing so he must be- political capital. If Mr. McCallumn chose smirch the character of an honourable man to invest his money in an hotel, he was who is dead, did not deter him at no worse nor better than anyone else that all. He said, '41 am going to bring chooses to do so. But whatever he did - the matter up, whether the man concerned and I need not express an opinion about is here or gone to the Great Beyond.'' He the matter, except to say that I profoundly decides to bring the matter up in order to disagr-ee with the member for East Perth-- prove something, and to some extent re- it was an entirely personal matter. It was habilitate himself in regard to the ridicu- a matter not known to me or to any mnern- Ions charges that were not proved on the her of the Government, so far as I am last occasion. Parliament should not allow aware, It was not known to any of us this kind of thing to go on. It is deroga- what Mr. McCallum's interests, if anmy, tory to the dignity and prestige of Par- were in the hotel. We were not aware, but liament to allow a member to come here we have the word of the member for fanst and make baseless charges, and to strive Perth for it now, wvhat investments oi in- to lower the prestige of public men and terests Mr. McCallum had in any hotel. other people holding honourable positions Yet the member implies that this was a in the State. When members of the Cov- deep-laid conspiracy amongst all the menm- ermnent and others in public life reach hers of the Government at that time, and honourable positions, no matter what they of course he says that other members of do, although all their actions may be hon- the Government who have colne in since ourable, he imagines there is something are not worthy of confidence either. Trhis, wvrong, and endeavours to drag into the however, he says, was a deep-laid scheme dirt anybody occupying a position of pro- about which everybody knew. That is ridi- minence in public life. That sort of thing culous and absurd. I do not suppose the is lowering the prestige and dignity not only hon. member would take my wvord. I think of members of this House and members of he reciprocates the feeling I have for 1dm; the Bar, but is generally lowering the pres- I do not take his word on anything be says tige and character of the wvhole of the now. But I can assure the House that p'er- people of the State. If that kind of thing sonally, and I think I can say the same for is encouraged and successfully got away every other hon. member on the front with time after time, we shall be respon- bench, if Air. McCallumn did have some in- sible for directly conniving at the lowering terest in the hotel-although I do not dis- of the prestige of Parliament, and Parlia- agree with his having that interest if he ment should consent to it no longer. Not- so chose-that fact was not known to any withstanding that the hon. member says of us, and it was a matter entirely personal my threat leaves him cold, this Parliament to the late Mrl. McCallum. When a few will be failing in its duty if, after a full months ago something was alleged against and complete inquiry into the charges made Mr. J1. H. Thomas, of the British Govern- by the member having been held, we allow mnent, the matter was treated as personal the imaginings of a morbid mind-what he and as affecting. the Minister himself. The calls circumstantial evidence, and it is very course he took was one that he felt hp circumstantial indeed-to be aired in this should take, but it had nothing to do with House we shall be open to censure. This the Government. Parliament will be failing in its duty Hon. C. G. Latham: The Government had if it allows the morbid imaginings -)f an inquiry immediately. a man with the psychology of the The PREMIER: But it had notbin-,, to member for East Perth to be con- do -with the Government possessing- the tinually aired in public. To continuie confidence of the House. to permit it would be for Parliament to Hon. C. G. Latham: If be had remained be deserving of censure. I thought that in the Government the Government ,nicht when we had given the member for Past have had to take some action. Perth an opportunity to have a Royal Comn- Hlon. P. Collier: You make a charge your- mis~ion, and when his charges had been self, Do not stand behind an independent disposed of, he would retract. Instead of like the coward you are. [7 DMcansa, 1937.1 23553]

lon. C. G1. Latham: So that is whltre sioner have been laid on the Table and we are getting. given publicity in every possible way. The Mr. SPEAKER: Order!I hon. member was accorded every opportunity Hon. P. Collier: You go ahead. to substantiate his charges before an impar- Mr. SPEAKER: Order! tial and skilled Commissioner. Before The PREM1IER: Let me go ahead, Mr. the inquiry had proceeded far, the hon. Speaker. I am not going to detain the miember realised the impossibility of proy- House long. ing the charges and looked for a sof t lon. P. 1). Ferguson: They are all wak- spot on which to fall. He wanted to save ing up at last. his face. 'When the inquiry was half way Mr. -SWPEAKER: It is your turn no", Mr. through, on some trumped-up grievance and Premier. pleading privilege, ho withdrew from the The PREMIIER: I am going ahead, So basis of the whole of the charges he had far ms this town planning basiness is con- made. Even after that, the investigation of cerned-I am not too conversant with the the charges was proceeded with, and any- facts and circumstances, but the Minister one who knew anything of the matters cna- for Lands knows all about it and may feel mera ted was at liberty to give evidence. inclined to give particulars of the real posi- But nobody appeared before the Commis- tion-T understand that the town planning sion, and the Commissioner's findings were scheme did not prev-ent the erection of a a complete vindication of the Government in hotel, which was a shop for the purposes respect to the charges levelled by the hon. of the Act, and it could have built at nmember. Since the report was issued the any timue and no alteration was necessary lion, member has been like a piceked bal- to enable it to be done. That is the position loon. He had a chance to prove his charges. as I understand it and I think that is the He failed to do so. The general elections po~tion as a matter of fact. The Royal are looming, and I suppose he wishes to re- Comissioner stated that in his opinion it habilitate himself to sonic extent and endea- was unncessary to alter this scheme to per- vowu to make a decent showing, and so he mit of the erection of a picture show. How- brings up the matter here and abuses the ever, as the member for East Perth considers character of a dead man to support his that the Royal Commissioner was a con- charges. spirator, it is of not much use to reply to Mr. Stubbs: There was a charge against him by quoting what the Royal Commis- the Licensing Board. sioner said. I say that the moving of this The PREMIER: The hon. member had an no-codnfidenicc motion is just the effort of a opportunity to prove his chiarges against the discredited man. I do not know how a man Licensing Board. If he had known of any- could not bhe discredited who had madie thing or if he had known of anybody who chargesz to the extent of those made by the Could produce evidence, he had every oppor- hon. mnember. I think there were 27 charges, tunity to present it to the Commission. In all of which w;ere proved to he without fact,' I was present at the inquiry with the foundation. The hon. member made the idea of elucidating every possible point in- ehar~es; outside, andl when he came to Parlia- volved in the matters in which I was con- ment he made them in this House. He won cerned, and I must say that I never saw a the election by a campaign of calumny, abuse Commissioner who 'went out of his way to and exytravagant charges. In Parliament he as-gLst what might be termed the proseutor. followed up the charges and the Government as did the Commissioner on that occasion. appointed aRoyal Commission of inquiry. HEt was more than fair; he was absolutely [A -womian interjected from the public generous in allowing the bon. member every gallerv.1 latitude. In a court of Jaw not half the Mr. SPEAKER: Constable, remove the latitude would have been allowed him as lady. the Commissioner allowed. If he thinks Hon. 11. Collier: Give notice of the ques- no0w or thought then that members of the tion. Licensing Board had been guilty of corriip- Mr. SPEAKER: Order! lion or had done something dishonourable, The PREMIER: The outcome of the or was, subject to undue influence, or if he Royal Commissioner's inquiry is well known knew of anyone that could produce evidence to everybody. The findings of the Commns- lo that effect, lie could have called such evi- 23.56 (ASSEMBLY.]

dlfec and( could1 have had the whole matter do not propose to waste the time of the ventilated. He did not do so. He did not House further inl dealing with the subject ('all any witnesses. Yet ten months after- matter of the motion. I have long, long ago wards- given UP trying to understand the malevo- Mr. Hfughes: Did not I call Phil Collier? lent workings of the lion: member's mind, The PREMIER: Did he call anyone who and I am pleased to-night, as I always am, had any idea of the charge of corruption to be in violent disagreement wvith him. He against the Licensing Court? glories on anl occasion like this. I think Mr. Hlughes: Did not I call Phil Collier? that hie to some extent has been responsible. lioni. P. Collier: Yes, I was there. for bring-ing so many people here to-night Mr. Hughes: And you made no answer. Ir introdu-inz matters in the endeavour ta The PREMIER: The hon. member did impugn the honlour and] integrity of the not get any evidence from that gentleman Government. He glories, in doing some- that would tend to support any allegation thing that nio4t peole would despise. For made in regard to corruption. ir part I despise tactics of this kind and I Mr. Hughes: I could not ask the ques- think the llouse should treat the matter with tions. the contempt it deserves, and reject the mo- Hon. P. Collier: You were cowardly and tion summaril. ran away from the case. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! THE MINISTER FOR LANDS (Hon. If. The PREMIER: Even if the member for F. Troy-Mt. Magnet) [9.55] : The member Boulder had answered, that would not have for East Perth has been good enough to supported the charge of corruption that the introduce my name in his remarks to-night hon. nmemb~er has repeated here. Everyone and has quoted from administrative acts of in the wide world is corrupt that does not mine in order to convey to this House and agree with the member for East Perth. The the country opinions that are entirely con- Licensing Court, members of the Govern- trai-v to fact. The House has listened to a ment, the legal profession-all are corrupt very garbled statement of the administration and dishonourable men, conspiring to do of the Town Planning Act, and so I propose something that he considers wrong. When to give the facts. The hon. member was something regarding the late ',%r. 'MoCallum compelled to state that my administration bein- interested in a hotel comes forward, had been beyond reproach; it was only be- the lion, member considers it an opportunity cause lie could not have said otherw-ise. The to rehabilitate himself to some extent re- facts are on the file. The bomi, member had garding the charges he made, but I do not opportunities to see all the facts on the files think he gets anywhere with it, and so far and, but for that, God knows what ho would tis the Government not possessing the confi- have said about me in this House and in the dence of the House is concerned, my reply country. When facts are not on the file is that no member of the Government knew respecting what occurred between the mein- anything about it. Yet the hon. member her for Boulder and myself, the hon. morn- uses that matter in order to bring forward ber puts his own base construction upon a charge of no confidence against the Gov- them. He does not put onl them the con- ernment. The hon. member has not made struction of a decent man; lie does not put the slightest accusation against any mem- oil them the construction of an honourable her of the present Government. How the or reasonable ni; he says this is the cc,,- Government could have forfeited the confi- struetion I wanlt to convey, and en- dence of the House or of anyone else be- deavours to have that view accepted. cause of something of which they had not The member for East Perth does not the slightest knowledge is becyond my com- know what passed. He never had any prehiension. I do not know what justifica- opportunity to know what passed, but tion the hon. member advanced for moving he is prepared to tell the House and the the motion. Boiled down the hon. member country that he knows all about it. No contended that the Government did not pos- other member in this House would make suech sess the confidence of the House because a statement. It is possible to entertain sa'l- somebody bad an interest in a hotel two or picions about a man. One can hear tittle- three years ago. I regard the hon. mom- tattle about hundreds of men. During my bei-'s action as an attack in order to try to public life of 34 years I have heard regain his standing amongst the people. I anny things about men in public life. [7 DlEEMBE, 1937.] 2357

I have heard hundreds of statements made Oile was in my possession, and I replied in in the country, and I can testify that 99 per the negative. The Town Planning Com- cent. of what I was told for a fact was not missioner was asked the same thing and a fact at all. I was told when the inquiry replied in the negative. That was not to was on that a member of a former Govern- say the file was missing. Some 50 or 60 ment-a National-Country Party Govern- files pass through the hands of the Minister meat-had taken a bribe of £500. I iwas every day. They are then sent out and he told that by a gentleman whose authority does not know where they axe until he I thought could not be questioned. He said, wants then, again, when he sends for them. "A certain M1inister took £500." Hon. C. G. Latham: They are in the re- Hon. C. G. Lathnm: Did he mention the cords office, if they are in their prop~er name of the Ministerl place. The The MI\ISTER FOR LANDS: Yes. -As MINISTER FOR LANDS: Yes. Hon. C. G. Latham: I wish you would I did not want the file and no one else mention the name of that Minister now. wanted it it was not called for. I had tIn- The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I am ished with the town planning scheme. A going to clear the matter up. When the in- deadlock had been reached, and I had no quiry was being held, inasmuch as venom reason to see the file. I do not peruse tiles except for a purpose; they would be had been imported into the subject matter files I would require to see. The important of the inquiry, I said to that muan, "You thing about it is that every transaction that told me that a certain Minister had taken took place is on the file. Every act of :C500 as a bribe. Have you the facts?' He replied, "No, the n who told me is dead.", mine, every act of the Town Planning Com- mnissioner, and. every act of Mr. McCallium Hon. C. G. Latham: And then you repeat --all are oii the file. It does not matter it here. where the file was. Every transaction is oil The ?MNSTER FOR LANDS: I said, it, and cannot be questioned by anyone. "'There you are. I thought you would When the Town Planning Act was passed, entertain nothing but anl authentic state- as it dealt with local authorities, it wals ment." He replied, "I could not prove administered by the Minister controlling it, but the manl wvho told me be- local authorities, namely, the Minister for lieved it was correct and he is dead Works. This was a matter concerning local now. That is what happens. My ex- authorities only, and it w'as administered perience of public life is that nmany people by the Ministr for Works. When the Mitchell- outside are apt to think that Minuisters hold- Lathanm Government came into office the ad- ing power can do all sorts of corrupt thing, mniswtration passed into the hands of the andl do them. That is one section. There then \Iiniister for Lands, now the Leader of is a big section also who would do corrupt the Opposition. That is how it 'became my things and who say that if Ministers do not responsibility. It was in the wrong depart- do them, they are damn fools for not doing ment, because the 'Minister for Lands did them. That is the attitude of a lot of not deal with any local government matter. people. And there are mnny people with W~hCi thle administration went back to the their mouths wide open to take in Public Works Department it went back to the statements of such as the member for the 'loper department. East Perth. They want to believe what - Hon. C. C. Latham: Why did you get he says; they are pleased to believe it. So long as people want to be- cross about it? lieve things there will always be some- The MINISTER FOR LANDS: That is one ready to tell them these things. I do another matter, which I could have con- not expect there w~ill be any time when cealed. there will not he someone in thle community Hon. C. (I. Latham: Knowing- you as I prepared to believe the worst of men, be- dlo, I do not think you could. cause they are of that type. What is the The MINISTER FOR LANDS: I did position in regard to the Nedland% town not conceal it; I told the facts. I could planning scheme? I have the facts on the have said I did not get annoyed at all. I file, and they were sworn to. The member zave my' evidence openly, and I gave my for East Perth said the File was missing. evidence openly in respect to the town plan- It was never missing. I wa asked if the ning transaction. The Nedlands town pilan- 2358 2358[AS SEALmLY.] ning scheme was gazetted on the 31st both the Conini~sioner ;nd the road board. March, 1931. The portion of the Nedlands Mr. IDnviston tells it- he even helped to Rioad Board area surrounding Stirling- draw uip the plans. The opponents of the highway was reserved for the erection of proposition waited upon inc by way of ap- shops and residences, and for no other peal, and stated that the local authority had purpose. Apparently Messrs. Stewart & contravened the provisions of the Town Davies desired to erect a picture show at Planning Act and the Nedlands towu plan- the corner of Stanley-street and Stirling- ing scheme by allowing a picture show in highway within the gazetted shop area. On that area. Subsection 3 of Section 10 of the the 25th November, 1933, 11. L. Fowler Town Planning Act provides that if a local wrote to the Town Planning Commissioner authority contravenes any section of the Act informing him that 120 residents of Ned- the people have a right to appeal to the lands had lodged an objection to the pro- Minister as the arbitrator. Only then does posed picture show, an open air cinema, the Minister conme in, when acting as arbi- at the corner of Stanley-street and Stirling- trator between the people and the local auth- highway. On the 11th December, 1933, the ority, I received a deputation from those Town Planning Commissioner wrote to 'Mr. opposed to the theatre. Acting on the advice Fowler informing him that the corner of of the Crown Solicitor, I ruled that a picture Stanley-street, where it was proposed to show was, not a shop. erect the theatre, was within the gazetted Hon. C. G. Latham: He drafted the regu- shopping area. The Conmnis,ioner said lations. there was no opposition to the shopping The MINISTER, FOR LA.NDS: I do not area, and he thought it would be distinctly know who drafted them. The Solicitor Gen- inequitable to oppose the erection of a eral gave me his opinion that a picture show picture show at the corner of Stanley- was not a shop. I made that decision, and street. The Commissioner told Mr. Fowler, conveyed it to the local authority. As a who objected to the picture theatre, which result of my decision, Mr. Virtu% solicitor the road hoard proposed to allow, that it for the opponent to the picture show, wrote was unfair to oppose it. Right through to the road boaid referrinig to my decision, the whole busines, the Commnissioner, who and a-Aking the hoard to discharge its duty was the responsible authority, and the under thme Act. He urged that the structure Nedlands Road Board, were in favour of in course of erection zshould be removed. On the picture theatre, and had opposed the the 2nd May the secretar~y of the Nedlands ruling I had given on the advice of the Road Board wrote to Mr.- Virtue stating that Crown Solicitor. The Town Planning Com- his board was not prepared to have the struc- missioner stated that the only way to pre- ture renioved. On the 4th 'May M1r. Virtue vent an open air theatre in Stanley-street -,-,ote to the Under Secretary for Lands in- was by some local resident taking out an forming him of the board's refusal, and injunction after the theatre had been stating that clients had asked him to make erected on the ground that it was a nui- representations to the effect that the road sance, and the nuisance had become evi- board should he ordered to do all things dent. He also said that if such action were necessary to enforce nhservanee of the Act. taken the Town Planning Board would have The Crown Law 1)epartinent advised me to no option but to support the owners of the hold an inquiry under the Act. The in- picture theatre. He added, "I trust that quir~y was held in my office on the the opposition to the picture theatre being 23rd May, 1934. All parties were repre- close to the corner of Stantley-street will sented, the opponent;s the road hoard, the he withdrawni." Town Planning Commissioner, and the per- sons who desired to have the picture show. Hon. C,.G. Latham: No injunction could As a result of the inquiry I instructed the he started until after the picture theatre Nedlands Road Board to do all things neces- had been erected? sary to enforce the observance of the Ned- The MINISTER FOR LAYDS: That was lands Town Planning scee. On my in- the Town Planning Commissioner's opinion. structions the road board wrote to Mfessrs. He sent a silimar communication to the 'Ned- Stewart & Davies asking them to remove the lands Road Board. A start was made with structure within a month. The builders took the building of the theatre on the 5;ite pro- no action and ignored the instruction. On posed, and the plans were approved by the 24th July the road hoard wrote to mec and [7 DECEMBER, 1937.)25 23.59 asked me to hold the matter up, because objc-cted to, as could also the picture theatre. they were consulting with the Town Plan- So, iii order to get past me, as the member ning Board with a view to an amplification for East Perth said, Air. 'McCallum did not of the Nedlands Town Planning scheme. On need to amend the town planning scheme, the 1st August I notified the board I was because there "-as no objection to the hotel Prepared to withhold the order until Tues- nor was any such objection submitted to day, the 14th August. In the meantime the ine. There was no necessity at all for the Nedlands Road Board had forwarded the town planning administration to be taken amplified scheme to the Town Planning from Joe and given to Mr. MeCallum, in Board, and the board approved of it. This order that he might do something that I included everything, picture shows, hotels, would not agree to, inasmuch as I did not etc., because it was desired to get over the at any time oppose the question of the erec- ruling I had given that a picture show was tion of a hotel in that particular area. The not a shop. I was aware that a large num- hotel matter did not come before me her of people were opposed to a picture by way of appeal at any time in any show at the corner of Stanley-street and the way. It could only come before me Stirling-highway. 1, therefore, tried to in my capacity as an arbitrator, On the effect a compromise. I instructed the Town 4th February, 1935, the secretary of the Planning Commissioner to attend a meeting Nedlands Road Board wrote informing the Nedlands Road Board, and tell the of me that the board had received plans local authority I would agree to an ampli- and specifications with an application for fication of the scheme if it had the picture the erection of a hotel on lots 16, 17 and 18 theatre removed down a block. The hotel, at the corner of Stirling Highway and by the way, did not ever come be- Florence-road in that suburb, which was on fore me. If the picture show was moved a the site next to that on which the proposed whole block away from the original site, those who were Opposing its erection would, picture theatre was to be erected, and the I thought, raise no further objection. The board asked me to advise whether the erec- road board refused to do that. I told the tion oe the hotel had the approval of the board I would agree to the amplified scheme Town Planning Commissioner. That comn- if what I requested was done. It was still munication wats sent to the Town Planning permissible, if I agreed to the amplified Conunissioner and to the Crown Law De- scheme, that shops and residences could be partment. Mr. Davidson, the Town Plan- erected in the area now occupied by the ning Comnmissioner, advised me that the hotel hotel. The Crown Solicitor advised me the did not contravene the town planning hotel was a shop. If the hotel matter scheme, but the Crown Law Department ad- had come before me by way of appeal that vised me not to be mixed up in the matter at is what I would have ruled. There was no all because it might come before me subse- necessity for -Mr. 'MeCallumn to secure the (quently in my capacity as an arbitrator. town planning administration in order that The Crown Law authorities pointed out that the hotel might be erected. That is the it would he wvrong for me to give an opinion evidence I gave, and 'Mr. Wolff's opinion on the matter at that stage, seeing that later is on the file. In his report the Royal on the people of the district might raise Commissioner stated that the Minister for ,,bjeetions and the question might be refer- Lands had acted wisely, consistently, and red to me for arbitration purposes. In honourably,' but that the advice given by reply to the road board, I wrote that the the Crown Solicitor was wrong. The Assist- Town Planning Act provided that such a ant Crown Solicitor advised that, in a matter would only be referred to the M1inis- limited sense, a picture show might not be a ter if some of the ratepayers in the area shop, but, in dealing with this matter in its complained that the local authority had con- larger aspect, it included everything-shopc. travened the town planning scheme. Thus hotels, theatres, garages, etc. The member I gave no op~inion at all then. It would for East Perth says that was wrong, but have been improper for me to have done so. the Royal Commission supported the ad- The only wav in which the matter could vice that was given me by Mr. Wolff, have come be fore me would have been by the Assistant Crown Solicitor, to the way of an appeal from the ratepayers, and effect that a hotel was a shop and it never came before me in that form. Thus could be properly constructed in the area at no time did I oppose the erection of the 2360 2360[ASSEMBLY.] hotel at Nedlands. The member for East garding the question of the hotel site, that Perth insinuated that because I op- had it been referred to me as Minister con- posed the pranting of the hotel, the trolling the Town Planning Act, I would admninistration of the Town Planning Aec have ruled that a hotel was a shop and could was transferred from ine to Mr. MleCallum. properly he erected where it is now. What I say that I never opposed the granting of a danger I would have run in the light of the hotel, but that if the matter bad been what has since happened. If I had ruled referred to me I would have ruled, on the out the lpicture show, on the advice of the advice of the Crown Law Department, that Solicitor General, and ruled in favour of a hotel was a shop and that the site proposed the hotel on the advice of the Assistant was a proper place for a hotel. That atti- Crown Solicitor, the member for East Perth tude had been supported all along by would have said, "Troy is in wvith the hotel; the Town Planning Commissioner and the ruling is convincing proof of that. He by the Nedlands Road Board. The two refused the picture show hut when it eaine authorities were always in favour of the to the hotel he was in it and he let it go hotel and the picture theatre being erected through.'' Now, at this late hour, the in that particular area. In those circum- member for East4 Perth has discovered that stances, any Minister would have been jus- Mir. .NeCalluni had an interest in the hitel. tified in acting on the Crown Law Depart- He would just as easily have said thait, mnent's opinion that the hotel was a shop and althoug-h I olpposed the picture show, I hod could he erected in that particular area, for agreed to the erection of the hotel beeau: e he would have had the support and author- my Ministerial colleague was interested in ity of the road board and the Town Plan- the hotel. He would have regarded it as ning Board as well. I find, M1r. Speaker, circumstantial evidence. Again I say I had that this is the charge made in Parliament a very narrow escape. by the member for East Perth- -Ar. Hughes: They did not allow you to There was a hotel at Nedlands. There was dlo it. trouble about the license. It was desired to have a picture show at Netiands. A friend of Trhe MINISTER FOR LANDS: He would the head of the Agricultural -Bank, Mr. Alec. have regarded it as circumstantial evidence McCallumi, wranted to run pictures; but the ageainst me, and that is what he builds on Town Planning Commission would not give when he makes these attacks. He is that him permission to make the area a business area. type and as I had rejected the picture show and would have agreed to the hotel, he That is; a lie. The Town Planning Conmmis- would have regarded that as complete cir- sioner never refused to give him permission. cumstantial evidence against me, and would Mr. Hughes: You should read the file. have said I had allowed the hotel because The 'MINISTER FOR LANDS: The mny then colleague had an interest in it Town Planning Commissioner insisted all and that I knew it all the time.'' That through that the picture theatre should be would he his circumstantial evidence. That in that area. Even though I had acted coix- is what he relies on, and so I emlphasise that trarq to his advice on the first occasion, the I had indeed a very narrow escape. I do Town Planning Commissioner always in- not regard all people as dishonest. I endeav- sisted that a picture theatre was a shop. our to keel) clear of that sort of thing. If Mr. Hughes: Have a look at the file. I had to carry out myv public duties with The 'MINISTER FOR LANDS: The the thought in my head that every man was facts are on the file, dishonest and dishonourable, it would be a Mr. Hughes: Have a look at the minute. perfectly miserable life for me. I think of The -MINISTER FOR LANDS: It is a every man doing as I myself do. I do not lie to say otherwise. The Town Plan- look at everyone's action in search of c!ir- ning Commissioner never refused per- cumstantial evidence in order that I may mission. On the contrary, he always say that this man is a thief and that man a supported the establishment of a pic- scoundrel. And so, as, in view of the advice ture show in that particular area. That wv:as tendered to me, I would have ruled as I have one statement made by the member for East indicated, there was no necessity for me to Perth in this House that was referred to the do -as has been stated. The member for 'Royal Commissioner. I say now, on the ad- East Perth talked about the misging file. vice of the Aocaistant Crown Solicitor. rp- It was never missinfr. I did not want the [7 DECEMBER, 1937.] 2361

file. It went back to the records branch. another Minister-I would not object to that I did not see it for some time, nor did any more than I would object to the admin- I want to see it. It does not matter where istration of the Insect Pests Act being trans- it went. Files are not left heaped up in a ferred to another Minister. I was hurt Minister's room, but are removed after that I had not been advised. When I spoke they are dealt with. The important thing to Mr. Collier about it he said, ''You is that record., of everything that took place once discussed that with mue and you regarding the matter appear on the file. The said you would like to be relieved of the member for East Perth said that up to thii administration of. the Act." I replied to time 1, as Minister, had been perfectly hon- Mr. Collier, "Yes, but I should have been est and honourable and had done the right told.'' Mr. Collier said, ''Yes, I admit that T thing, but up to that time there is a record should have told you." That is what hap- of what happened. There is no escape pened. The member for East Perth was not from that. But he threw some doubt there, and he knows nothing about it. on the discussion that took place between Nevertheless he conmes to this House and says Mr. Collier and myself. Ile talked about that he knows everything about what took my being tired of the department. I was place. lie attempted to tell something as heartily sick of the town planning business, facts that could not have been known to which had reached a deadlock regarding the him at all. They existed in his own mind. picture theatre. It was by accepting a He asserted as facts when he could ruling of the Solicitor General, that the not know the facts any more than deadlock was reached, and nothing could I would know what occurred in the be done. That had gone on for nearly two home of the member for East Perth years, and naturally it was about time that last week or even yesterday. the business was finalised. I dlid not Mir. Hughes: You took it on yourself to want to bother any more about the make a few comments on my home life. Town Planning Act, which was realy The MINISTER FOR LANDS: There is not my business. When I discussed something supernatural about the member for the matter with Mr. Collier on my return East Perth. He could tell everyone what oc- from the country, I said, ''Such legislation curred. He knew allI about it. He asked why deals with the local authorities and should wvai I annoyed. But there are things that go to the department concerned; it is not my occur in an ollice, conversations that I do business." We did not come to any particu- not remember. There is no member of this lar decision at that meeting. I could have House who, on oath, could repeat a conversa- misled people by saying, ''Yes, I knew all tion he had yesterday. Many conversations 1 about it." As a matter of fact, I did not fail to remember because I dleal with a bun- know anything about the actual transfer. dr-d different things in my office, and thena The first time it was brought tinder my t-arry on business in this House also. I notice was when Mr. Richards showed me nced not have told the Commissioner I was the ''Gazette'' notice in my office. I did annoyed. I could simply have said that not rush round to the Premier's office; I the administration went out of my did not go there until the following Mfon- hands, and I did not want it. But I day. It took Ine three days to walk the told the Commissioner the facts, and now the member 50 yards. In the meantimne I looked for East Perth says he knew all that happened. But how could he know? into the matter and I asked Mr. Shap- T his man had the right to go before the Coim- cott about it. He hold me that hie asked the minssIoner and give evidence. What was the Premier, "Shall I notify Mr. Troy?'' and honourable thing for him to have done? To the Premier at first replied in the affirmative. have gone to the Royal Commissioner and Later on he said, "No, I will tell him my- told the Commissioner that he knew Ran self." That is 'Mr. Shapeott's statement to stated the facts. But be was not game to me. As I have pointed out, I was away on go0 into the witness-box. the goldfields during- the miners' strike and Mr. Hughes: Yes, he was in the witness- when I came back I had forgotten the con- box. versation between Mfr. Collier and myself The MINISTER FOR LANDS: And he that had taken place some time previously. ran away. He could have gone into the I was annoyed, not that I objected to the witness-box and said, "I know this for a transfer of the administration of the Act to fact." Then the Commissioner probably 2362 [ASSEMBLY.] would have said, "Mr. Hughes, how do you has said that it was a Cabinet decision to know P, Then Air. Hughes would have carry out the transfer of that Act. It was been bankrupt; he could not have been other- not a Cabinet decision at all; it was a de- wise. The Commissioner would have said cision of the Executive Council to transfer to him, "Where is your evidence, and how the Act from the Minister for Lands to do you know ?" But he would have been the Minister for Works. That was on the bankrupt because he did not know and 20th February, and Mr. McCallum did not could not know. 'When Mr. Hughes first agree to the amended scheme until the raised the question in this House 5th that Mr. March. MeCallun had agreed to the scheme of town Hon. C. G. Lathamn: What are you quot- planning supported by the Town Planning ing from now? Commission in the area referred to in my The MINISTER speech, I was concerned that Mr. MoCallum FOR LANDS: From the Executive Council minutes, dated the had done that of his own initiative. But Mr. 20th February, 1935. Bulley, the chairman of the Nedlands Road Hon. C. G. Latham: That is not the Board, swore one in evidence that alter a depu- that was gazetted. tation he told Mr. McCallum about the dead- The MINISTER FOR LANDS: No, I lock. Did the hon. member quote that evi- see I have made a mistake. I am looking dence to the House to-ni!rht9 Of course not. at the wrong file. But Mr. Bulley hs worn in evidence Hon. C. 0. Latham: It was on the 8th that alter the deputation he wvent March, page 613. to Mr. McCallum's office, told him about thle trouble and asked him to agree to the The MINISTER FOR LANDS: Here is scheme to help the local authority out of a a copy of the minute on the Town Plan- difficulty. Then Mr. 'McCallum agreed to ning file, No. 113/30, vol. 2, page 103. This what the road board wanted done, what copy was given me by my clerk to-day. the Town Planning Commissioner wanted It can be seen on the Town Planning file. done, and what the Royal Commissioner It was transferred on the 20th Febru- said was right. ary, 1935, and Mr. McCalUin did not agree to the amended scheme until the 5th Hon. C. G. Latham: Was that on the day March, nearly two weeks afterwards. That on which he took over the department? is the position. I propose now to deal wit), The MINISTER FOR LANDS: No, it the charges made by the member for East was some time afterwards. Mr. 'McCallum Perth. He said that when speaking about took over at about the end of February, the dead, he had to think of the living. and on the .5th March he approved the He said he had hurled the lie back in their town planning scheme. I think those are teeth. It cannot be said by the member for the facts. I think now, in view of all that East Perth that he was circumscribed or I have heard and the discussions I have gagged by the Royal Commissioner. Tongues had with others, that I was wrong in the were everywhere wagging about the re- first place in ruling that a picture theatre markable license that he was getting. The wvas not a shop; because, as the Royal Comn- hon. member never made a charge in this missioner pointed out, the word "shop" was House, or anywhere else, that the late Mr. not to be regarded in its strictly limited McCallum was interested in an hotel. He sense, but was to be regarded as applying never made any such charge in this House, to a town planning scheme, and therefore and so the Royal Commnissiouer could not in that sense a shop could include a hotel, inquire into something about which no a picture show, a garage, or any other charge had been made. The hon. member plaee of business. Mr. MeCallumn did did say that the Licensing Board was in what he was asked to do by the Town a terrible position because of the influence Planning Commissioner, and by the local of Ministers, but he made no charge that authority. That is the whole position Ifr. 'McCallum was interested in an hotel. regarding the Nedlands Road Board con- When the hon. member got before the troversy. When I think of the cir- Royal Commissioner, he was simply fishin. cumnstantial evidence that mighbt have He never produced a witness on any char~e. been raised against me by the member for nor did he produce any corroboration of East Perth, I see that I had a very narrow his charges. He claimed privilege. The escape indeed. The member for East Perth first thing be said was that he claimed [7 DECEMBRas, 1937-] 262363 privilege under some old Act of about a ber for East Perth has discovered that Mr. hundred years ago. He did ask Mir. Collier MeCallum had some interest in a hotel at if he were interested in an hotel, but the Nedlands. What is to be assumed from Commissioner promptly said it was not a that? The member for East Perth's claim fair question, because no charge of that is that Mr. MeCallum improperly went to charac-ter had been made. The mem- the Licensingr Court. What are the facts? ,her might have asked me had I divorced The Chairman of the Licensing Bench gave my wife. He was continually fishing to evidence before the Royal Commission and get something, but for himself he had no- he showerl that the block in respect to which thing. He admitted that it was all cireum- the license had been granted had a maajor- stantial or based on suspicion. So he ity of 501 signatures over the other block. never was entitled to ask that ques- Moreover it was the more suitable block and tion, because he had made no charge. it was for that reason that the license was The Royal Commissioner rightly did not granted. The member for East Perth also permit him to put that question. If stated that the 'ifnister could influence the he had made a direct charge in this Licensing Court. If I went to the Chair- Rouse that Mr. McCallum was interested man of the Licensing Court and endeavoured in an hotel it would have become a sub- to induce him to grant me a hotel license, ject of an inquiry. He said to-night th.it would I not be putting myself in his hands! my administration was quite all right but Could he not afterwvards say that I had tried that I wanted to protect the Ministry. He to coerce him? Is that not the last thing asked me about the hotel when I was giving that any man would do? Of course the evidence. I think it was in regard to the member for East Perth is sure that that was Agricultural Bank. In Question 5271 he done, but no decent man would dare ap- .asked me- proach any member of the Licensing Court; Would you have still appointed iMcCallun he would not be so foolish as to run the risk had you kniown that lie was in the habit of ap- of what might follow such a course. The plying for botel licenses in the names of otheir member for East Perth also spoke about an- persons?-I 'Ia not know anything at all about othe- hotel and in fact he made aL lot of Mr. McCallum's habits. 5272. Would] it have made any difference charges in connection with the ranting of bad you known?-It was not in my mind. I hotel licenses. But be never succeeded in mnade the appoint ment on the facts known to one of them. Now, because it has been dis- me. covei-ed that Mr-. McCallum was interested 5273. But had you known other facts?- T do not know other facts now. in a hotel, he is endeavouring to show that 5274. Yon know that hie applied for a hotel the Royal Commissioner was wrong in the Iieense?-- have never known it. decision that he arrived at. At the time the 5275. Did von not know that he was one member for East Perth never made an of the persons that apiplied; can you deny accusation that any Minister of the Crown thiat?-T do deny it; I have no knowledge of it. was interested in an hotel. He never said that MAr. MceCallum had any interest in an On my oath, I never knew about it. I never hotel. He did not know; he tried to get in- at any time knew that M~r. McCallum was formation by fishing. What are his charges interested in hotels. When Mr. Hughes essentially? Here is something he said asked me that question, I gave him the pro- about the granting of hotel licenses- per answer, which was that I did not know. I must quote him correetly-that seven I know nothing about this transaction ex- applications were made for licenses and cept what I have heard from the member's each application contained the required lips to-night. Even now I do not know number of signatures. He added that the facts, although he says he knows them. I am sure that no man could put a few all the applications -were rejected until hundred pounds into an hotel investment and Senator Johnston came along and put in get £10,000 out of it in a short time. I pre- his application which was granted. What same if the value represents money raised are the facts: The maember for East Perth en mortgage which must be paid to the said that there were seven applications made, bank it may be a horse of another colour. It was proved to the Royal Commiss4ioner When I said that I did not know, I that not seven, but two applications were did not know. I can say now that except for made, that five never reached the court at whlat I was told, I did not know. The mem- all. His statement was that 8ev-eln were 1851 [ASSEMBLY.] made. Was that not lying? In truth there- Laded signally. He said that Mr. hkCalfluma fore, one application only was rejected in had the Premier of the State in an unfor- 1930 and five petitions never got to the court tunate position in which he could blackmail at all. They were rejected by the electoral the Premier into doing anything he wanted i officer because -they 'were not in order. Bat that the Premier was in the unfortunate posi - the member for East Perth said that seven tion that he had to leave the State, but when went to the court whereas there were only two, he returned the gun was put at his head by and one of those two applications was made Mr. McCallum, that Mr. McCall-n forced in 1930, the depression year. The other was the Premier to take certain action becautse made in 1935, and that was the one that was he had the Premier, who had 'been his col- granted. The petition for this one had league for years, at his mercy, and so he de- amongst its signatures those of T. J. Hughes manded from the Premier the job for which and his wife. It would be impertinence here he had absolutely no qualification at all at to say that the application he signed was £2,000 a year. That was the charge that not a proper one. The Royal Commission be made against Mr. McCallum, but he never decided that the license was properly went into the box to prove a word of it. granted and now the member for East Perth He gave no evidence in support of it and says there was corruption. With regard to did not produce a witness. All lie could do the petition, the member for East Perth said was to talk about circumstantial cvidf'nee. that a man came along for his signature arid When the Commissioners said there was no he just signed it. Does not a man usually truth in that charge, the member for East take the responsibility for what he signs? Perth could not hurl that back. The facts When he signed his name of course he are that it was I who made the appointment, suggested it was right and proper that the I made the recommendation and the ap- hotel should be in that particular place pointment. There is no shame in a man who and that it was justified. Did the can concoct a story like that and does not mnember for East Perth when he ap- attempt to produce any evidence in support peared before the Royal Commission say of it. He knew he could not because he had that he was in possession of the facts, and no evidence. The member for East Perth that he would prove his charges. He had no is a lawyer to-day and he will be associatred facts and he was not able to prove any- with a lot of circumstantial evidence of this thing. Is it not proper when a man makes type in the courts. He made a definite charges that he should have some knowledge charge with regard to the Agricultural Bank of the facts, that he should go into the wit- appointment without any evidence at all to ness. box anti say, "Here are the facts and support it. I was the only man that could here arc my witnesses. But he had none. have told the truth, and I told the truth Then with regard to Mr. Gray, his -charge to the Royal Conmmissioner who believed it. was that that gentleman went to the Trades Yet we have this man concocting stories on Hall and he and his colleague took unlaw- what he calls circumstantial evidence. 'No fully £721 out of the funds oft the industrial man's reputation is safe where he is con- unionists of the State to pay for Mr. Gray's cerned. He speaks of improper influence, legal transgressions. but when I was Minister for Mines he came Hon. C. G3.Latham. That was not men- to mc and insisted that I should support a tioned to-night. friend of his for a mnagistenial appointment. The MIINISTER FOR LANDS: The mem- In fact, hie said, "You will have to make ber for East Perth said that never was money this man a magistrate." more fraudulently obtained, that it was plain Mr. Hughes: What nonsense! Who is misappropriation of funds. Yet he never the maui. Tell us his name. produced a witness to support his charge before the Royal Commission and the Royal The MINISTER FOR LANDS: He asked Commission decided that there was no me also to help his friend and partner to fraudulent use of funds. This man did not a magisterial appointment, and I said no. go into the box; he was never on his oath, Mr. Hughes: I had no partner. Tell us and he was not on his oath to-night. his name. Hon. P. Collier: It is William and Mary The MIN1%ISTER FOR LANDS: I do not to-night. suppose he is a partner any longer. Every- The MINISTER FOR LANDS: He never one quarrels with the member for East produced a single witness and of course he Perth. [7 Dsouxnss, 1937.1

Hon. P. Collier: No, he has no partnel.s He was not influenced by being a director now. of an insurance company. 'Mr. Hughes: Tell us the man's name. Mr. Hughes: Clydesdale has dug his own The MINISTER FOR LANDS: For the political rave. Just wait until March 1 The MINISTER FO. LANDS: I have man whom he wanted me to make a magis- trate there is nothing too bitter in his said before that John Norton of New South mouth now. Wales was a very clever and capable mn with a newspaper supporting him, and that Mr. Hughes: Who is the man? when I was a lad in New South Wales Nor- The -MINISTER FOR LANDS: I will ton attacked honourable men. until they were not give the name here, bitt I give the facts. afraid of him and his vicious tongue and his Mr. Hughes: Tell us who the man is. newspaper. Honest people in New South The MINISTER FOR LANDS: It is Wales believed John Norton to be an honest not necessary to mention the man's name. man and a purifying angel, whereas he was Mr. Hughes: You cannot tell it. in fact one of the worst characters that The MINISTER FOR LANDS: And ever lived. I was a follower of his in New then the hon. member talks stout improper South Wales, but I heard him here for the practices! I do not want to mention the first tints in the Theatre Royal and was ab- man's name in this House. He has not done solutely disgusted with the way he played anything for which I want to attack him. down to the community. He made money The member for East Perth talks about his in New South Wales by vilifying and abus- "4royval progress." I call it a rotten pro- ing honourable people. gress. Every associate he has ever had he lion. C. G. Latham: Do not forget that has quarrelled with. That is the trouble that luau also has passed over the Great with his public life, If he is defied, he Divide. never forgets. He pursues an opponent even beyond the grave. The member for The MINISTER FOR LANDS: That is East Perth said that Mr. Willeock bad put all right. I am merely drawing an analogy. justice on the auction block for sale. That John Norton went too far; and after he was a serious statement to make, but he had been discovered his enemies Posted never gave a tittlo of evidence in support of all his crimes, gave a whole list of the statement. The evidence proved that crimes which even included murder. Mr. Willeock never put justice on the auc- For years in New South Wales John tion block for sale. The Commissioner Norton never gave any public man decided] against the member for East Perth. any rest. He vilified every one of them, The member never had a witness in support and he was not fit to black their hoots. of the charge, and he himself was not pre- The member for East Perth has made a lot parTed to support it on oath. He made it Of charges, but has not stood up to one of here under privilege. Naturally the Com- them He has not proved even one of them. mnissioner ruled against it. Who would not To-night he revealed that Mr. McCallum rule against a man that was not game to had had some interest in a hotel at Ned- go into the box and support his charge on lands. He says that all this combination of oath? The charge could only be supported the town planning scheme and its adminis- b, circumstantial evidence conc2octed in tration point to that fact. I ask him how some bad and vicious mind. In the East did he come to the conclusion that Mr. Mc- Perth election the member mixed up Clydes- Callum pointed a gun at Mr. Collier's head dale and Crosthwaite. He said, "Cros- and forced Mx. Collier to make him general thwaite is a friend of Jack Wren. Jack manager of the Agricultural Bank? 'What Wren is a friend of Clydesdale's. All are rich evidence did he offer in suppedt of that 9 people." What was the member's complaint He had none. Now he thinks he has a against Clydesdale? What had Clydesdale chance of showing 'that the Commissioner done against him? To-night the member was wrong in everything. He said bhe was said the Government would not fight the not allowed by the Commissioner to ask Upper House, and then he spoke about questions about hotels. But he had made Clydesdale again, saying he was a director no charges about hotels. Why did he not of an insurance company. Did Mr. Clydes- make such a charge? Why did he not say, dale vote against the State Government In- "Mr. McCallunm has an interest in hotels and surance Office Bill? No. He did his duty. has influenced the Licensing Court"? Why 2366 [ASSEMBLY.]

(lid he not make the charge about other Min- or misconduct of a Minister let him make idevrs being interested in hotlds? He did the statement. He has had generous treat- not do it. At the Royal Commission he was ment in the past. He could have been not allowed to go fishing. The whole of his bundled out because he has made gross mis- campaign before the Royal Commission was statements on the platform, in the Press, a fishing campaign in the hope that he might and in this Chamber. However, he was not drop on something. As regards all these bundled out. i-barges, the member for East Perth has not Hon. C. G. Latham: He would have come stt..d uip to one of them To complete it back if lie had been. all, he was put in the box. All the state- The M1INISTER. FOR LANDS: That mnents subimitted to the Commissioner for does not matter. investigation were statements not made on Hon. C. 0. Lathamn: That is a jolly sight oath. When he was put on oath and was worse! under cross examination to prove his The MINISTER FOR LANDS: Oh no! charges, what did he do? He ran away from When I arrived in this country the Forrest them. He claimed privilege. He said, "Yes, Government had been in office for ten years, I made that speech, but I won't say wflat and evetywhere throughout Western Austra- it was." After that exhibition he dis- lia men were traducing that Government as appeared: Nowv he thinks, "I can reinstate corrupt. They said John Forrest and Alec myself because Alec McCallum had some Forrest and others were all boodlers. The share in a hotel at Nedlands." He cannot Forrest Government remained ten years, say that the hotel was not warranted at and then went out under those charges. Yet Nedlands. He does not say that the Licens- there is no one in Western Australia to-day ing Court would have given the license for who does not honour the members of the any site in another position. Cer- Forrest Government, and there is nobody tainly a hotel license was refused to the who bothers about or remembers the people site opposite this one, but the two applica- who traduced them. Mr. McCallum may tions were heard together. The one petition have had his weaknesses. All men have their had a majority of 500 signatures, and refer- temptations. No man could walk down the red to a better block. If I had been the street with his history written on his back. Licensing Court myself, I would have given Could the member for East Perth walk the license to that block. But what is the down the street with his history written on charge against the Government? The mem- lis back?9 Will he tell the people how poor ber for East Perth says the Government does old Jim Keughran, a former partner of not possess the confidence of the House. Mr. his, became impoverished and ruined, and McCallumn had not been in Parliament for how his business was destroyed, and how two and a-half years. He was never a mem- his home was sold over his head I No! ber of the Willeock Government. The Will- Mr. McCallum may have done things which cock Government knows nothing about his in the circumstances were unwise. But he transactions and had no hand or part in is not on trial here. Furthermore, them. Is the member for East Perth pre- while the member for East Perth might pared to charge the present Government? have been returned for East Perth, and He says, "Because Mr. McCallum was a may be returned again, what does that member of a former Government the pre- matter? If he were returned ten or a sent Government is responsible." We do dozen times it would only he putting off not know that there is any guilt on the part the day of his defeat. He has spoken about of Mr. MeCallum. His action may have the way in which the Government is treat- been unwise, but there is no evidence that ing the unemployed andi the workers, and it was not fair and square. However, Mr. so forth. 'Mr. McCallum was a trade union McCallumn has gone past being defended secretary and organiser for 30 years Find bert. Therefore the member for East Perth the statute-book is filled with th legisla- is hard put to it to make his charge tion he introduced for the benefit of the against the present Government. if workers. he takes the risk and goes on his Miss Holman: Hear, bear! oath to prove that this Government The MINISTER FOR LANDS: And is not deserving of the confidence of the there is nothing from T. J. Hughes. House because of some maladministration Mr. Marshall: And never will be. [7 DECEMBER, 1937.] 2367

The MINISTER FOR LANDS: And way of interjection, asked me to lay my never will be. He has talked about what own charges, because I happened to inter- the Government can do with the re- ject, and told mue not to be a coward. While sources it has. When the party opposite I am in this House I am not going to sit is in office he will say the same to them. down and allow anyone to call me a coward. Hon. C. G. Latham: You will not be far I have nothing to fear. I propose now, as behind him if you can get a smack at us, far as I judicially can, to stum up the situ- either. ation as it appears to me, and while I have The MINISTER FOR LANDS: If I for- no desire to add very much to the debate, get myself and follow your bad example, I I propose to point out to the House the will be soolitng him on to the Government views that have come to my mind. The first and destroying the Government. He has thing I ask myself is, "What is the cause of to live. He had to promise the electors this motion moved by the member for East what he would do. Let members oppos~ic Perth?" My reply is, it is a statement made put him into the Government and see wvhat in this House by the member for Northam this outstanding character wvill do. Let (Mr. Hawke) the other night, when he made them then see what this brilliant mind will a charge against the member for East Perthi accomplish. Let themn put him in the Gov- (Mr. Hughes) and told him he was a liar, erment as Attorney General. a cheat and a thief. You and I wvill agree, Hon. C. G. Latham: We have plenty to Mr. Speaker, that that is unparliamentary choose from. language. I contend it should not have been The MINISTER FOR LANDS: He will allowed. It went unchallenged. The mem- fail lamentably. Mir. McCallum's work for her for East Perth has taken the first op- the wvorkers of this country is outstanding. portunity to repudiate that and push it back They have the best Workers' Compensationu on to the member for Northam. That seems Act iii the world and they got it through to me to be the reason for this motion. In him, and the member for East Perth had no connection with the charges made against part in it. They enjoy advantages through the Government, I have come to the conclu- the efforts of Mir. MicCallum for 30 years, sion that they cannot affect the present Min- and] now he is dead the member for East istry. I am speaking now regarding the Perth wants to clear his owna character by charges laid in connection with the Captain defaming him and referring to something Stirling Hotel at Nedlands. With regard that Mr. McCallum did, unwisely or to the other charges, they are such as; I have wisely, whatever may have been the repeatedly made in this House, namely, that circumstances. However, this Govern- the Government is not doing all it can for mient is not on its trial. The Gov- the unemployed. I do not propose to delay ermnent is not on trial unless the mew- members by dealing with that question be- her for East Perth makes some accusation cause I have dealt with it previously. In ag-ainst the Government's integrity. When that direction the member for East Perth he does so, I make this challenge to him. must have my support. But I do not see Let him get into the witness box. Let him how we can ask the members of the Govern- go on oath and take risks, and let him ment to-day to shoulder the charges made have his statements corroborated if he call. by the member for East Perth. I would But this Government is not now on trial. point this out, however, that the mem- We know that Mr. McCallum was human, ber for East Perth has conclusively but we know that he did great work for demonstrated to the House, and not this country, and even the people of EnAt only the Ministry but every membar Perth will one day acknowledge it. should take notice of it, that it is unwise and dangerous for one who is a Minister RON. C. G. LATHAM (York) [11.'191: of the Crown to interest himself in a busi- I proposed, when the motion was intro- ness that is controlled by a board of which duced, to be a silent listener. I intended he has the appointment. That is a serious not to take any part in the discussion but, position. The member for East Perth has in my capacity as member for York, to adju- brought under our notice that there was a dicate, as far as I could, and give a decision Minister interested in hotels, and that that which I thought fair and just. But the M inister, in his capacity as an administrator member for Boulder (Hon. P. Collier), by of this State, had the appointment of the 2368 2368ASSEMBLY.)

Licensing Board every three years. He may no objection to the erection of a hotel which not have used any undue influence in re- he regarded as a shop. The amended regu- spect of the position he held, but it is a dan- lations set out the purposes for which the gerous thing for any member of a Govern- lots might he used as follows:- ment to engage in the hotel business when it (a) Any use allowed in the residential gaz- is a responsibility of the Government to etted area, and subject to any restrictions im- appoint the hoard which controls that busi- posed by By-laws under the Town Planning ness. This is the only matter of which we and Development Act and the Bond Districts Act. need take cognisance now in the remarks of (b) A theatre, hail, club, or place of amuse- the member for East Perth. I want to put ment. the Minister for Lands right in regard to (c) Offices, banks, or hotels. some of the statements he made. He stated It will be seen that hotels are specially that the transfer the Town Planning Act mentioned. from the Minister for Lands to the Minister (a) Fire stations, polie stations, post for Public Works took place some time be- offices, or public buildings. fore the promulgation of the amended regu- (e) Shops, snieroomns or showrooms for the lations. I have looked through the "Govern- conduct of retail or wholesale businesses. ment Gazette" to ascertain what took place (f) Workrooms connected with retail busi- in 1935. 1 find at page 613 of the "Gov- ness, in which not more than 50 per cent, of the total floor area is devoted to the workroom. ernment Gazette" of 8th March, 1936, this (g) Such other accessories as this local notification:- - authority may determine, but not including any Premier'Is Department, industry, trade, or manufactory, beyond that Perth, 5th Mlarch, 1935. specified in the previous clauses hereto. It is hereby notified, for public informa- Notified for public information. tion, that His Exccllency the Lient.-Oovernor in Executive Council has approved of the transfer DAVID L. DAVIDSON, of the administration of "The Town Planning Chairman Town Planning Board. and Development Act, 1928," from the Hlon. That is also dated the 5(h March, the date the Minister for Lands to the Hon. the Minis- ter for Works and Water Supply. on which the notification of the transfer of the Department took place. L. E. SHAPCOTT, The Premier: Here is a copy of the Secretary Premier's Department. minute of the Executive Council. I turn to page 631 and find this notifle- Hon. C. G. LATHAM: I am using a copy tion:- of the "Government Gazette." The Premier 'Nedlands Town Planning Schemne. knows as wvell as I do that it is not only the that The Hon. the Minister for Works, in pur- passing of an Executive Council minute suance of the powers conferred upon him by is necessary. The regulations must he Section 7 of the Town Planning and Develop- gazetted. The day he was sworn in as ment Act, has approved of the variation and Premier, a "Gazette" had to be published amplification of the Nedlands Road Board immediately. The two things go together. Town Planning Scheme as gazetted on the 13th March, 1931, as hereunder:- Immediately these things take place and the fact is gazetted, they become law. They do Business Areas- not become lawv until they are gazetted. (1) The frontages to the respective streets Otherwise regulations might be0 in force for namned hereunder only of the following lots a long -while and the public would be un- may be need for retail shops of approved use and/or residences, subject to any By-laws made aware of the fact. To take action against under the Road Districts Act or the Town anyone under a law not made public would Planning and Development Act:- be wrong in principle and that would not Lot 245, Waratah-avenue; Lot 518, Mer- be done even by the present Administration. riwn-street; Lot 65, Langham-street; It may be a coincidence that both these tran- Lot 71, Aherdare-road; Lot 67, Loch- sactions bear the date the 5th March, 1935. street; Lot 586, Viewway, and Lot 162, Bruce-street. Despite the fact that the M-inister stated (2) The land or lots included in existing that the ruling he gave on the advice of the shopping areas as defined under the Scheme, Crown Law Department was that a picture excluding the lots referred to in (1), may be garden w-as not a shop, but that a hotel isasQ, used for any of the following purposes:- we know very well that the Nedlands. Road This is the area which was origialy gazet- Board would not grant permission for the ted as a shopping area and in which the erection of a hotel because it was afraid Minister informed the House he would raise that to do so was beyond its powers under [7 flscris, 1937.] 202369 the by-laws. The matter was held up for a could have expended money in a far better long time. I have here a few facts to prove manner for the unemployed than has been what I amn saying. The first set of regula- done. As regards the other statements tions was gazetted on 13th March, 1931. A the evidence, to my mind, is conclusive that provisional certificate for the Captain Stir- it would he better if members refrained from ling Hotel was granted on the 28th Dece- engaging in business, and that it is unwise her, 1934; the regulations were amended on for 'Ministers of the Crown to engage in 8th March, 1935, and the license for the hotel business when they have the appointment or was ranted on 4th December, 1935. So reappointment of the board controlling that that 12 months passed between the time the business. To do otherwise is very dangerous. provisional licence was granted and the day It leaves them open to criticism, and that the licence was actually issued, be- being so, they must expect to be criticised. cause the Nedlands Road Board refused permission for the erection of the hotel on MR. McDONALD (West Perth) [11.33]1: the ground that it would be a violation of the I propose to intervene in this debate for one Act. Those arc absolute facts. I am not purpose only, and that is to express regret lpersonlly interested in any way; but it that the name of Sir Walter James has been looks as if the inember for East Perth has introduced into the discussion. The name of made out a case. I have avoided, as much Sir Walter James has been associated with as' possible, bringing jn names. I am of the the best traditionis in the public life of this opinion that when a person passes away, State, and also with the best traditions in the if we can say nothing good about him, at profession he has followed. I wish to say least we can leave him alone. Outside of I am absolutely convinced that in all the that there is a public duty devolving upon us matters referred to by the member for East and that duty is to keep as far as possible Perth there has been nothing on the part of the names of our public men free from any Sir Walter that has represented any de- suispicion. I know it is imipossible to do that parture from. his line of duty. with the public in every instance, hut we have a perfect right to clean up any mis- Question put and negatived. understanding that might arise. When the charges were orig-inally made by the member BILL-FINANCIAL EMERGENCY TAX for East Perth I felt it my duty to ask the ASSESSMENT Government to investigate those charges. I ACT AMENDMENT. am not going to put myself in the position Council's Further M1essage. of judging whether effect was given to it by Message from the Council received and the Royal Commissioner or not. The Royal read notifying that it had agreed to the to hear the evi- Commissioner was appointed conference managers' report. dence and be gave his findings. The findings might not be satisfactory to me; neither is eveiry decision of the courts satisfactory to BELL--INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT. me, but I am prepared to accept his findings and, so far as I know, he based his decisions Council's M4essage. on whatever evidence was presented to him. Message from the Council received and I had no intention of taking any part in this read notifying that it did not insist on its debate but for the challenge of the member amendment No. 6, but insisted on its amend- for Boulder (Hon. P. Collier). I wish the ment No. 3, and had agreed to the further hon. nmembler to know that no man in this amendment of the Assembly to amendment House is going to charge me with cowardice. No. 5, and disagreed to the further amend- I will not permit it; there is no justification ment of the Assembly to amendment No. for it. Sometimes unpleasant duties devolve 9, and insisted on its original amendment No. upon the Leader of the Opposition, but T1 have tried to carry out my work as I am ex- pected by the public to do it. I intend to follow that course in future, as in the past. BILLS (4)-RETURNED. As to the points raised by the member for 1, Fremantle Gas and Coke Company's East Perth, I say that he has merely repeated Act Amendment. on one of them what I hav-e frequently said With an amendment. in this House, namely that the Government 2, Perth Gas Company's Act Amendment. 2370 2370COUNCIL.]

3, Land Tax and Income Tax. to move the adjournment of the House on a Without amezdment. matter of urgency. The letter reads-- 4, Mfunicipal Corporations Act Amend- Sir,--I desire to inform you that it is my ment (No. 2). intention at the sitting of tile House on Wed- nesday, the Sth December, to wuove the fol- With amendments. lowing niotion :-" 'That the House at its rising adjourns uintil Tuesday the 14th December'" for the purpose of debating the following BILFAOTORIES AND SHOPS ACT matters of urgency: - AMENDMENT. 1, Tite erroneous classification by the Public Service Commissioner, allegedly un- Received from the Council and read a first der time Public Service Act, of positions time. held by certain public servants. 2, The granting of a pension on the House adjourned at 11.37 p.m. basis of such erroneous classification to a certain one of such public servants. That letter was sent to me in accordance with Standing Order No. 59, and so that Mr. 'Baxter may have leave to move the motion, it will be necessary for four mem.- bers, by rising in] their places, to indicate their approval. Four members having risen,

HON. C. F. BAXTER (East) [4.37]: In order to verify certain financial returns, 1 lcglslattve Council, asked a series of questions in this House W~ednesday, 8(hs December, 19371. last week, and time replies I received to those questions started ile off onl a thorough in- vestigation of the position, which I found. to Assent to Bills.. 2270 Motion: Urgency. Public Serie Clasication and shalli isaefatory. At the outset, as I mr. Hunt's pension ...... 2870 salbe referring to three public servants in Question: Youth emfploy=nt Federal Wat, os 2892 Very hig-h positions, I want it understood B3Us: Loan. £1,227,000, IL., Corn...... 2892 Industril Arbitration Act Amendment (o ) definitely that there is nothing of a personal Corn., reeom., reports 2403 nature behind any matter that I shall deal with to-day. The gentlemen I refer to are occupying very high positions, and have The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30 d]one so for a long period of years. I have p.m., and read prayers. been associated with all three. With two of them I have heen associated in my capacity as a Mfinister of the Crown, and I was in ASSENT TO BILLS. close touch with the other public servant in Message from the Lieut.-Governor re- relation to Cabinet and Executive Council ceived andi read notifying assent to the proceedings. I hold the very highest imadermentioned Bills- opinion of all three gentlemen, who are 1, Air Navigation. public officers of the utmost integrity, fully 2, Supply (No. 2) £1,400,000. qualified to carry out their duties, which they have done exceedingly well. That, how- 3, Judges' Retirement ever, is quite apart from the position to 4, Jury Act Amendment (No. 2). which I desire to draw attention. Onl Thurs- 5, Forests Act Amendment Continuance. day last I asked a number of questions to which the Chief Secretar 'y replied, and I desire to quote both quesions and answers MOTION-URGENCY. for the information of tho House. The first Public Service Classification and question was- Mr. Mimi'~s Pension. What salary was 'Mr. C. A. Munt receiving at time timle 0f his retirement fromi the position Thle PRESIDEN_\T. I1have received a let- of Under Seeretary of the Department of Pubh- ter from M1r. Baxter slating that hie desires ]iv Works